# Women shooting alone in remote locations or at night?



## SquarePeg

Wasn't really sure what forum to put this in...

This is mostly directed to the female photographers of TPF who take outdoor pics.  How do you handle personal safety when you're out shooting in remote areas or at night/early morning?  Do you have a buddy you go with or do you feel comfortable going out alone?  Do you tell someone where/when you are going and check in afterwards?  I had a kind of creepy experience this weekend while out shooting alone and it's really giving me second thoughts on venturing out on my own so often.

I stopped at a local lake yesterday afternoon to take a walk with my camera.  It's a pretty popular spot for dog walkers and exercisers but it was cold out and there were only a few other cars in the parking lot when I got there.  One car had a guy sitting in it alone.  I didn't think much of it and headed to the trail that goes mostly along the lake but some of it is through the woods.  I was walking  back toward the parking lot about an hour later through one of the wooded sections when I caught a quick glimpse of a man about 20 yards up ahead of me peeking out from behind a tree.  At first I thought maybe I'd interrupted him peeing and he was just ducking out of the way to zip up but he stayed behind the tree.  There was no one else around.  When I was about 20 feet away he was still standing (hiding?) behind the tree so I stopped walking trying to decide what to do.  I had to pass him to get back to my car and the path's only about 3 or 4 feet wide.  I was mentally kicking myself for going on the trail alone (I didn't even have my little dog with me) and for not telling anyone where I was going (it was a last minute decision to stop there on my way home from visiting a friend).  

As I stood there hesitating, I heard voices and then a young couple came from the direction of the parking lot walking their dogs.  Tree guy stepped out into the path and casually walked past them heading toward the trail exit.  When the couple reached me I told them I was pretty sure that he had been hiding along the trail and I asked them to please walk back to my car with me in case he was still in the parking lot.  He was gone when we got there.    I feel very lucky that they came along when they did.  I suppose that it's possible that I was just being paranoid but I don't think so.  My spidey senses were going off, there was definitely something weird about the whole thing. 

So, now I'm feeling totally creeped out about going out on my own with my camera when there won't be lots of people around.  I had plans later this week to get out early to take some sunrise pics on the "beach" side of the lake but now I'm second guessing that plan as well.  

Just looking for some input/advice/suggestions re women shooting alone.


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## sm4him

I walk softly and carry a big stick. 
I'd carry a gun, but I'd end up shooting myself in the foot or something.

I do go out alone--far more often than my friends or family are comfortable with. I do realize the dangers of being a woman out alone in a remote area, but taking someone with me completely defeats the purpose--I *love* that time alone and I refuse to give it up just because there is evil in this world. If someone kills me, well, at least I went out doing something I loved.  In the past two years, there have been at least six--maybe as many as 10 or 12--reports of women being attacked here locally. Two were out at a VERY popular and usually crowded nature center, 2 or 3 were on a city greenway and then several were on trails up in the Smokies. I've been to ALL of those places alone, and so far never had any serious instances--but I HAVE sometimes left because something didn't seem "right."

I just try to be as cautious as possible. Some "tips" off the top of my head--or maybe just some "field notes" about my experiences.

1. Don't go anywhere that is not completely familiar to you. I never, ever try NEW places alone and especially not alone in the early hours of the morning (I won't include "late at night" because I do not DO late night).
The places I go early in the morning tend to be the places I am most familiar with, AND most comfortable with.

2. Your "Spidey Senses" rule the day--or the morning, or the night. NEVER, EVER tell yourself you're "just" being paranoid, or you're being too cautious or "ridiculous." I think we have that weird sense for a very good reason. If my spidey senses are tingling, I'm outta there.
I left a local park for that very reason one day--there was a guy in a car not too far from me who just sat watching me, and he gave me the creeps. So I got the bejeebus out of there. A couple of days later, there was a news story that a woman had been attacked at that park.

3. I check the place out before I ever get out of the car. In your example above--I would probably NOT have even gotten out of the car while that guy was in his. I'd have locked my doors, maybe worked on getting my camera ready or whatever, but kept an eye on him. If he left, fine. If he got out and started walking somewhere, at least I'd know where he was headed, and I could decide to either go a different way or go somewhere else instead.

4. Stay aware. "Watch your 6--" meaning don't just know what's in front of you and to the sides, but know what's behind you. NOBODY is likely to ever sneak up on me, because I am constantly surveying the area. Again, in your example--as soon as I saw that guy behind the tree, I would have gone the other direction and tried to get somewhere where HE couldn't see me, but *I* could see him, and then wait to see what he did. If he was peeing, he'd be on his way quickly enough. Maybe he was bird-watching or...who knows what. But I wouldn't have gotten ANY closer until I was absolutely certain of his intentions.

5. Carry something to call for help, and to defend yourself. Your cell phone, absolutely--but also a whistle. Mace. A knife. At the very, very least, a good heavy stick.

6. Have a PLAN. If you DO encounter something like your situation, what are you going to do? Know beforehand how you're going to handle things. Let's say, somehow, I hadn't noticed that guy, and I'd gotten a little closer before I saw him. And there's nowhere for me to go to hide. I'd IMMEDIATELY decide what I have that I can do damage with--INCLUDING my camera if necessary. It's insured and I wouldn't hesitate to bash someone in the head with it if they intended me harm.

7. Get trained. Get some defense training if you plan to be out alone. Seriously. There is NO substitute for at least being prepared if something happens.  I can't say I could stop a 6'3", 250-lb. man in his tracks if he intended me harm--but I can definitely say I'd go down swinging, and he WOULD have some battle scars.


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## sm4him

Oh, and another:

8. Don't ACT like a girl, and don't act scared to be there. I know I just say to be constantly watching and all that, but you can be very aware of your surroundings and still walk confidently. I have a bit of an advantage here--I'm 6' tall and have enough weight on me that someone would have to think twice about whether they wanted to try to take me down. I also grew up with 3 brothers, and so I *am* confident that I could fend off the average attacker, and it shows in how I carry myself.
Defense training would help in that regard, too. Knowing you *can* defend yourself will also help you carry yourself in a way that expresses that confidence, and I really do think it makes you less vulnerable to attacks in the first place. Because guys looking to attack some woman out alone do NOT want to mess with anyone that they aren't sure they can take down easily.


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## vintagesnaps

Weird and creepy. Who knows what he was up to but that doesn't sound like typical behavior of someone who's hiking, etc.

The type of job I had involved doing home visits in the city in the kind of neighborhoods that are on the news with drug related shootings, etc. So we had someone go with us as needed, and we worked as teams anyway (me and therapists and service coordinators, etc.).

We had training on personal safety, maybe think about taking a class. I got pretty much in the habit of looking around when I get out of the car, if anything looks at all odd I may wait a minute and see what I think, it's probably better to change plans if needed. (I saw Sharon's post midway thru mine - I'd piddle around in the car for a minute and see what he was up to - sometimes I see, oh, they've got a kid over there so they're just out hiking, or he has a camera or binoculars, etc.). And I think if need be I could use a camera like a nunchuk! lol and whack the sh#&% outta somebody.

Supposedly if a perp sees you looking around and being aware, say in a parking lot, it's less likely they'd choose you for a victim and more likely they'd go after the woman who seems oblivious (unfortunately) and make a grab for her purse not yours. Criminals seem to be lazy as&$% and don't want have to work too hard at anything so are probably looking for an easy target.  

If I've gone out and about taking pictures on my own I'd usually stick to an area where there are people around and not get too far off in an isolated area. Especially the time of year where there aren't so many other people around. If it's that long a walk to get thru a wooded area to get to the beach it might be better to not go alone in case that guy is hanging around that park all the time. I wonder if you should report it to the park district? maybe find out if they've had any other reports.


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## Woodsman

All good points and I agree, trust that spidey sense.  Even guys get freaked sometimes.  I had an occasion where I have to get back to the car and the route is through an alley between two buildings from the main street to the parking lot out back.  One night there were two guys just kind of leaning on each side of the alley way at the far end of the alley by the parking lot as if they were talking.  Gave me second thoughts and I ended up walking the long route around the block instead of the car park alley.  Always trust the spider sense. 

You might also consider having something you can quickly grab as a weapon like a belt with a heavy buckle that is just around your waist but not through any belt loops or on a quick disconnect.  You could also have a friend or family member on speed dial and aware you might be calling and then just talk to them on a one way conversation on speaker phone to keep your hands free.  That may give someone close reason to pause particularly if they hear you tell the person on the phone where you are. 

Just a few ideas.  You did good asking for the couple to help you back to your car.  Smart move. 

Stay safe


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## JacaRanda

#2 is #1!!!!


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## JacaRanda

I think pepper spray or mace whatever they call it, is a great idea.  Use for animals and creepy guy behind the tree situations.

I also thought of dialing someone or fake dialing someone.  Pretend to be waving to someone in the direction of your car, speaking loudly and waving your hand as to let them know exactly where you are "Hi Brutus, I see you in the parking lot, look I'm waving at you" kind of thing.


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## DarkShadow

1.Well I am not a lady but I will give out some suggestions.Don't go in sucluded places alone but if you do, look for exits,safe escape routes and be familiar with your  and surroundings and have a plain,this could be to your advantage.
2.Carry pepper spray but you need to be mindful of expiration dates.
3.Carry a noise device maker the louder the better.
4.Take self defense,martial arts or some sort of safety training. sometimes police departments may offer safety training or a YMCA or a self defense dojo of your own picking.
5.Never hesitate keep moving while making eye contact,let him know you see him but keep moving and be ready for anything. All this is common sense stuff but its easy to overlook when fare takes over.Oh yea I almost for got,never ignore your gut feeling,they are seldom wrong.

Truthfully even as a dude I take precautions and I am fortunate enough to live in a state that allows me to bare arms and I am always packing when out in about alone. Much like you, I will adventure off into secluded places like wooded areas and just because I have the means to protects my self,  I would not want be in that position and  I will avoid it at all cost.


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## Overread

I believe there are also a series of mobile phone apps you can use. Some which send an automatic email/text to someone if you don't disable its timer - ergo you plan to go out and be out for X number of hours - if you don't enter the password and disable it before X number of hours runs out it sends the text - ergo alarm is sent. 

There are also others that track your position and other fancy things you can look into. Something like that might at least make you feel safer whilst out; rather like the self defence class its there to help, but a big way it helps is by giving you confidence when out. Confidence helps a lot in many ways:

1) You can more focus on what you're doing rather than worrying (this doesn't mean not paying attention to your surroundings just that not every single sound is going to make your heart go nuts). 

2) You can move with confidence which suggests your familiar with the surroundings and suchlike. 

New places are often more strange to us; consider if you're going somewhere new that you might go to more than once of just taking a walk without the camera; just get the lay of the land or take a point and shoot. Google maps is also fantastic as you can get a good birds eye view of the area and "walk" down many roadways to get an idea of what it looks like (more use the latter on road trips; and not always up to date either - but great for helping you drive with confidence because  you already have some idea of what is up ahead or how far it really is till the next turnning and what it looks like).


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## SquarePeg

All great suggestions and cautions, thank you!  I'm glad you all don't think I was being paranoid.  

Yes, going out alone is a major part of the appeal, I know you can all understand that.  I work full time and spend almost all day talking/emailing/conferencing and then at home I have my mom living with me and my 12 year old daughter so our house is pretty busy most of the time.  Alone/quiet time is really precious to me and I love going out by myself with my camera and just exploring.  I considered joining one of the photography meet up groups in the area (and I may still do so) but I really need to be able to take advantage of any last minute free time - like yesterday.

I definitely should have moved on to a different location when I saw that guy sitting in his car.  Not even sure if that was him or someone else in the woods but you're right, it was not the best circumstances to get out of my car when no one else was around.  And though I've walked that path a few times before, I've never been there so late in the day at this time of year so it was a bit of unfamiliar territory.  I need to be more aware and not get so caught up in what I'm doing.

Pepper spray is a good idea.  I would never carry a gun, that is just not for me.  It's been 20 years since my Taekwondo training and with my cranky knee I'd probably disable myself instead of any attacker if I tried any of those moves but maybe a refresher self defense course would be a good idea.  I'll have to look into that.

I guess I could always clock someone with my tripod if I had to - that's a big stick.

Thanks again for your suggestions!

(yet another) Sharon


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## vintagesnaps

You mean SquarePeg isn't named Peg? So there are three of us Sharons now, we can team up! lol 

There you go, that's what those tripods could come in handy for!


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## NancyMoranG

Sorry you have to wonder about your free time opportunities!
I think a lot of us have had the same thoughts and doubts as you while out alone.
I went out to Plymouth Town Brook one night, not that late, well maybe 9:30-10 pm...
Yeah, a homeless guy passes me while I had the tripod set up. I waited for him to pass as he was in my photo. 
I took the photo then went in front of the camera as an excuse to see if he had continued walking. He had turned to look back at me as well.
I packed up and luckily another couple came and I walked with them to the parking lot.
I always thought the tripod would be a good club. Seriously try swinging it as practice though. 
I try and be aware and do walk with purpose even if I don't know where I am going 
Hubby is always asking me if I have mace, but I don't carry it.

This is actually a nice refresher course for us all to think about. I think the whistle on a neck rope would be pretty accessible, rather than a phone in your pocket, unlock it, find your emergency person etc.....


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## SquarePeg

vintagesnaps said:


> You mean SquarePeg isn't named Peg? So there are three of us Sharons now, we can team up! lol
> 
> There you go, that's what those tripods could come in handy for!



No, not named Peg, just a bit of an oddball.


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## vintagesnaps

We could make up T shirts, Don't mess with a Sharon. (Or a Nancy, or a Terri, or a Lenny or any of the gals of TPF).


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## Designer

O.K., so I'm not a woman or an LEO, but frankly, any kind of fighting should include something lethal.  IMO.

A large stick or a tripod is not going to do much damage, and if a man is intent on overpowering a woman with a club, I'd place my bet on the man.  No offense.  

Get serious, get lethal, or don't go.


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## dennybeall

Learning about self-defense is a very good idea but it can give you a false sense of security. Also, one comment earlier talked about pepper spray and you need to be careful in that it's not legal to carry on your person everywhere. If you are going to carry it, get *Bear Spray* and understand if you use it you will get a taste or even a face full. That's just what happens most of the time.
Another good thing is to keep your car keys in your hand and push the Panic button if you get in a problem.


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## Warhorse

I advise getting training with a handgun, getting a CCW permit so that you can legally carry it, and never leave home without it.

It may sound like overkill (pun intended), but seriously, after a short period of getting used to carrying, you will find it quite reassuring and empowering.


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## SquarePeg

You can save the get a gun suggestions - never gonna happen.


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## JacaRanda

SquarePeg said:


> You can save the get a gun suggestions - never gonna happen.



I agree.  If ever I had to resort to that, then I would simply give up photography.  Can only imagine how tough it would be to use one while composing a landscape shot.


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## limr

Can I just say how infuriating it is that we still even need to have this conversation? How absolutely jammed up it all is?

But I have no energy to rage about that at the moment, so instead, here are a few tips I can add to those already given:

1) Put your hand in a fist around your keys and let the keys stick out between the fingers, pointy side out. 
2) Make eye contact and, as mentioned already, walk with absolute confidence and badassery. 
3) If you have to defend yourself physically, go straight for the balls, the throat, and the knees. Be kind of spazzy and unpredictable. If you yell, try a really deep-pitched roar instead of a high-pitched typical-Hollywood scream. Guttural sounds like that are unexpected coming from women so it'll throw him a bit off guard - perhaps enough for you to get away and run like hell.

And yes, it was a while ago, but I did take some martial arts training. It didn't give me a false sense of security like someone mentioned, but it did help me feel more prepared to defend myself. Any little bit of preparation or skill helps make it a little less exhausting to have your guard up all the time.


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## rexbobcat

I don't really have anyadvice since everything seems to be covered so far. I just want to say that, as a 130lbs laughably unintimidating male I would probably never go to a remote urban location_ alone_ at night.

I do carry a box cutter in my pocket pretty much at all times when out, though.


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## PJoneil

SquarePeg said:


> Wasn't really sure what forum to put this in...
> 
> This is mostly directed to the female photographers of TPF who take outdoor pics.  How do you handle personal safety when you're out shooting in remote areas or at night/early morning?  Do you have a buddy you go with or do you feel comfortable going out alone?  Do you tell someone where/when you are going and check in afterwards?  I had a kind of creepy experience this weekend while out shooting alone and it's really giving me second thoughts on venturing out on my own so often.
> 
> I stopped at a local lake yesterday afternoon to take a walk with my camera.  It's a pretty popular spot for dog walkers and exercisers but it was cold out and there were only a few other cars in the parking lot when I got there.  One car had a guy sitting in it alone.  I didn't think much of it and headed to the trail that goes mostly along the lake but some of it is through the woods.  I was walking  back toward the parking lot about an hour later through one of the wooded sections when I caught a quick glimpse of a man about 20 yards up ahead of me peeking out from behind a tree.  At first I thought maybe I'd interrupted him peeing and he was just ducking out of the way to zip up but he stayed behind the tree.  There was no one else around.  When I was about 20 feet away he was still standing (hiding?) behind the tree so I stopped walking trying to decide what to do.  I had to pass him to get back to my car and the path's only about 3 or 4 feet wide.  I was mentally kicking myself for going on the trail alone (I didn't even have my little dog with me) and for not telling anyone where I was going (it was a last minute decision to stop there on my way home from visiting a friend).
> 
> As I stood there hesitating, I heard voices and then a young couple came from the direction of the parking lot walking their dogs.  Tree guy stepped out into the path and casually walked past them heading toward the trail exit.  When the couple reached me I told them I was pretty sure that he had been hiding along the trail and I asked them to please walk back to my car with me in case he was still in the parking lot.  He was gone when we got there.    I feel very lucky that they came along when they did.  I suppose that it's possible that I was just being paranoid but I don't think so.  My spidey senses were going off, there was definitely something weird about the whole thing.
> 
> So, now I'm feeling totally creeped out about going out on my own with my camera when there won't be lots of people around.  I had plans later this week to get out early to take some sunrise pics on the "beach" side of the lake but now I'm second guessing that plan as well.
> 
> Just looking for some input/advice/suggestions re women shooting alone.


Carry some pepper spray at a minimum and do not trust anybody. I know it sounds harsh, but that is the world we live in now. I would rather come off as rude than become a victim any day.


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## Warhorse

SquarePeg said:


> You can save the get a gun suggestions - never gonna happen.


In that case, buying a big mean dog, pepper spray, collapsible baton, and do not forget a knife, are also going to help you ward off an attack if you are unfortunate enough to become a target of a psycho rapist/murderer.


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## astroNikon

Don't be afraid to yell out "hey, what are you doing behind that tree"
if someone is there to surprise someone else, they don't like be called out.
Mace helps a lot too ... just spray at the tree sides


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## sabbath999

My wife caries a Glock 26, and has a LOT of training on how to use it. I know some people freak out about the whole "gun" thing, but there it is.


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## soufiej

I have worked for the last fifteen years as a professional pet sitter which means I am heading out in all directions at weird times of day and night.  The person I live with knows my schedule and my intended destinations no matter where I go or at what time.

In some instances, I am driving through and heading into areas where there are few people and even less security in the surroundings.  Asking people to leave on porch lights and to have some lights, at least, on timers so I'm not walking up to and into a house that is clearly not occupied seems to not sink in with several clients.  Several years ago I had a client in the "bad part" of town and I was driving past one house that was being remodeled (that would serve as a nice place for a druggie or three to spend the night), a house with bars on the windows, then a house with boards on the windows and several houses where those old time residents were clearly trying to maintain a neighborhood.

Even sitting at a stop light, I am aware of who and what is around me.  Vigilance doesn't mean looking for trouble but simply being aware of what is happening at the moment.  Don't live in fear.  It makes you an easy target.

There have been a few times even the walk from the car to the house has been less comfortable than I prefer, particularly when there are large shrubs around the door I use to enter.  Once I enter the house there's still every door left closed and rooms without lights that pose a "could happen now" feeling.

*More than anything, I try to stay aware of my surroundings and situations.*

If something doesn't look right, I don't hesitate to call the police.  I walked up to one house on a rather busy street one night and the front door was cracked open.  I called the police.  No sign of forced entry and nothing askew in the house but better safe than sorry.

IMO the "I went down doing something I love" approach is not justification for "I got captured and now I've been chained to someone's basement post for the last ten years".  *So, more than anything else, stay very, very aware of what's around you and what you may be walking into.*  I always go to the location in the daylight before I head out at night and I make myself aware of what's around, how to see the danger zones and the safe zones and how to possibly extricate myself from a bad situation.

Never hesitate to call the police.  They would rather find you safe and alive than any other possible condition.  I've never had an officer tell me they were being bothered even if the call was just making them aware of someone in a car that maybe shouldn't be sitting in that location.

*No photo IMO is worth anything more than the hassle of setting up.* *Alone time with a camera is all too often time when you are concentrating on your shot and someone can walk up next to you and you wouldn't even know at first.*

When you can't fully trust your spidey sense, it would be wise to carry along your batpack utility belt.  I prefer non-lethal carry alongs since I figure, should I be overtaken, anything I have with me which could render an attacker immobile could also be used on me.
*
Go to your local police sub-station and discuss this with them. *  Explain the situation and get their advice - which, of course, would always be to not do what you're doing - for what you can legally carry with you.

One item I've considered but have never purchased is a 130dB noise maker.  Producing an ear piercing frequency at a distance, it will give most people a moment of pause - in pain - while I can reconsider my options.   Don't be afraid to warn someone approaching you of your intentions if they reach an uncomfortably close distance.  Maybe they're innocent of any bad intentions, maybe they're not.

Mace and pepper spray, tasers and such have the disadvantage of proximity to the other person and having then turned on you to disable you.  But follow what the police suggest, they've seen the results of what happens when you don't.

*Most of all, don't look like a victim.*  I'm another six footer and a friend who works at a crisis intervention center once made the comment that I do  not carry myself as if I were an easy victim.  No one can add an extra six or seven inches to their height but you can learn to not look like you can be easily taken down.

Having any dog with you, even a little one, is always an advantage.  There have been several nights when my dog has warned me of other dogs - just as dangerous as people sometimes - and is always on the look out for anyone in our vicinity.   The extra few seconds of awareness can be the difference in your safety.

If you've had self defense training, take a refresher course.  Not allowing yourself to be the victim, even for a few seconds, can make the difference.

There's so many things that can make a difference that you need to have a mental arsenal with you at all times when you head out on your own.

If you notice someone acting suspicious, get out your cell phone and start calling home or the police.  That alone can give some would be attackers enough pause to keep you safe.  If someone comes at you, maybe you can manage to take their photo with your cell phone and then toss it into the bushes.  You can try to reason with them that you've just provided evidence the police are sure to find.and that they don't have time to locate.  If nothing happens, you can retrieve the phone later.
*
The answer to your question is, there isn't enough advice to give because every situation is different.  You need to be aware of the moment and act accordingly.  To do that effectively, you can't be lost in the shot.  No photo is worth that much if no one ever gets to see it.*


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## otherprof

SquarePeg said:


> Wasn't really sure what forum to put this in...
> 
> This is mostly directed to the female photographers of TPF who take outdoor pics.  How do you handle personal safety when you're out shooting in remote areas or at night/early morning?  Do you have a buddy you go with or do you feel comfortable going out alone?  Do you tell someone where/when you are going and check in afterwards?  I had a kind of creepy experience this weekend while out shooting alone and it's really giving me second thoughts on venturing out on my own so often.
> 
> I stopped at a local lake yesterday afternoon to take a walk with my camera.  It's a pretty popular spot for dog walkers and exercisers but it was cold out and there were only a few other cars in the parking lot when I got there.  One car had a guy sitting in it alone.  I didn't think much of it and headed to the trail that goes mostly along the lake but some of it is through the woods.  I was walking  back toward the parking lot about an hour later through one of the wooded sections when I caught a quick glimpse of a man about 20 yards up ahead of me peeking out from behind a tree.  At first I thought maybe I'd interrupted him peeing and he was just ducking out of the way to zip up but he stayed behind the tree.  There was no one else around.  When I was about 20 feet away he was still standing (hiding?) behind the tree so I stopped walking trying to decide what to do.  I had to pass him to get back to my car and the path's only about 3 or 4 feet wide.  I was mentally kicking myself for going on the trail alone (I didn't even have my little dog with me) and for not telling anyone where I was going (it was a last minute decision to stop there on my way home from visiting a friend).
> 
> As I stood there hesitating, I heard voices and then a young couple came from the direction of the parking lot walking their dogs.  Tree guy stepped out into the path and casually walked past them heading toward the trail exit.  When the couple reached me I told them I was pretty sure that he had been hiding along the trail and I asked them to please walk back to my car with me in case he was still in the parking lot.  He was gone when we got there.    I feel very lucky that they came along when they did.  I suppose that it's possible that I was just being paranoid but I don't think so.  My spidey senses were going off, there was definitely something weird about the whole thing.
> 
> So, now I'm feeling totally creeped out about going out on my own with my camera when there won't be lots of people around.  I had plans later this week to get out early to take some sunrise pics on the "beach" side of the lake but now I'm second guessing that plan as well.
> 
> Just looking for some input/advice/suggestions re women shooting alone.


I'm male and I would have felt as fearful as you did.


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## SquarePeg

otherprof said:


> I'm male and I would have felt as fearful as you did.



Good point.  Safety concerns do apply to everyone, particularly in a situation where you're worried about being robbed more than being attacked.


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## runnah

I didn't realize you were a lady!

But yeah, he was up to no good.


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## runnah

I don't really get scared by going out alone. But again I am 6'2" and 250lbs.

I always find myself trying to put women at ease when I happen to meet one in a parking garage or out in some isolated location. I look scary and I know that's the first thing that goes through their minds. So I normally at least try to say hello or maybe throw out a joke to try and put them at ease.


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## JacaRanda

I've been hesitant to comment again on this.  BUT!
Based on some of the suggestions here, now I have to be more concerned when I'm out strolling along (nope, never thought about it until now).  The thought of stepping out of bushes after stalking a bird and startling someone with their hand in a camera bag and finger on a trigger....DAMN


----------



## JacaRanda

runnah said:


> I don't really get scared by going out alone. But again I am 6'2" and 250lbs.
> 
> I always find myself trying to put women at ease when I happen to meet one in a parking garage or out in some isolated location. I look scary and I know that's the first thing that goes through their minds. So I normally at least try to say hello or maybe throw out a joke to try and put them at ease.


 
I do with men as well.


----------



## runnah

JacaRanda said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really get scared by going out alone. But again I am 6'2" and 250lbs.
> 
> I always find myself trying to put women at ease when I happen to meet one in a parking garage or out in some isolated location. I look scary and I know that's the first thing that goes through their minds. So I normally at least try to say hello or maybe throw out a joke to try and put them at ease.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do with men as well.
Click to expand...


I don't, gotta be that alpha.


----------



## SquarePeg

runnah said:


> I didn't realize you were a lady!
> 
> But yeah, he was up to no good.



Yes, I'm a lady.  I'm usually behind the camera so I don't have many pics of myself but this is me with my daughter.  I guess I should change my avatar at some point to show the real me.


----------



## DarkShadow

This young lady will alpha any dude out there.


----------



## JacaRanda

Hi Sharon the 3rd


----------



## TrolleySwag

Photography is 1st amendment, Personal protection is 2nd.
 Something like a Ruger LCR is great.


----------



## limr

Oh my god, enough with the guns, already! The OP has already said it's not going to happen, so why do people keep telling her to get a gun? Not everyone wants a gun. Get over it.


----------



## Aaaak

I am a tiny female and I never go outside by myself with the camera :-/ 
Actually, this sux. 

Enviado de meu C2104 usando Tapatalk


----------



## sm4him

limr said:


> Oh my god, enough with the guns, already! The OP has already said it's not going to happen, so why do people keep telling her to get a gun? Not everyone wants a gun. Get over it.



Agreed. 

I actually HAVE considered getting a gun, and probably will, when I can afford to do so (I find myself wondering why so many criminals have SO MANY guns--guns aren't cheap!).
BUT--even if I have a gun, I would not take it with me on the type of outings we're talking about here.

I'm a single, middle-aged woman who lives alone, in (or at least quite close to) a part of town that many would call unsafe. I've never had a truly threatening event at home, but I've had some things happen that scared the patookie out of me. For that reason, I would *absolutely* get a gun that I could keep in my home at night.
I would absolutely take my gun with me to various places around town where I feel there is a chance that I could fall victim to robbery or such.

And while I suppose it is certainly possible that I might get held at gunpoint and robbed out on a trail, I have never read a single instance of that happening here locally. EVERY instance I've read about where a woman was attacked on a nature trail or similar area--it has always been an unarmed man who was after one thing--finding easy prey that he could force himself on.  In EVERY instance, when the woman fought back, the individual ran. They are looking for weak, easy victims to overcome, not a fight.
I am NOT saying that is always true--it seems like the stories that happen in a more urban setting often do have very different scenarios.

But for the specific scenario of being out on a trail or somewhere like that alone--at least where I live--99 times out of 100, simply being prepared to fight back would cause the perp to take off.  
Perhaps that is not the case in other parts of the country, I don't know.  I just know how it is here.


----------



## sm4him

JacaRanda said:


> Hi Sharon the 3rd



SO many Sharons in such a small place!
Maybe we should have our own sub-forum, the Sharon Corner. 
You know, so we can be Sharin' Sharons.


----------



## runnah

sm4him said:


> You know, so we can be Sharin' Sharons.



Is that like swapping Sharons? Because Im down.


----------



## JacaRanda

sm4him said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sharon the 3rd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SO many Sharons in such a small place!
> Maybe we should have our own sub-forum, the Sharon Corner.
> You know, so we can be Sharin' Sharons.
Click to expand...

Will the real Sharon please stand up?


----------



## DarkShadow

Well It's not being out on a nature walks people need to always worry about . This is very rear case but some years back here in CT, a women broke down in her car and she called for a tow service. A very popular tow company that came for the roadside assistance.This tow service company is Very popular because they also have some of the biggest tow rigs around in the state and capable of towing 18 wheel big rig trucks.Anyways I don't remember how long ago it was but I remember hearing or reading about what the Tow driver did. After he hooked the car and If I recall correctly,the women did ride with the driver and he took her somewhere I think secluded then beat and raped her.She survived thankfully to ID the perp for his arrest.


----------



## runnah

Yeah this all really sucks for women. Its easy to forget that I don't have to fear those things.


----------



## shadowlands

I always have at least my Ruger LCP in my pocket. I'm in Houston, so I feel 100% better when I'm packing something.
In the winter, I can go with my 9mm, but our summer's are hot and we can't wear big clothing.


----------



## JacaRanda

Sorry Sharon the 3rd OP.  Pretty sure you did not mean it to turn into this. 

The rest I simply deleted.


----------



## runnah

Alright, no more gun talk. OP has stated she isn't interested.


----------



## runnah

What you need is a sword!


----------



## limr

Or a light saber! Oooh, I know, you need Jedi mind powers!!


----------



## jake337

I concur on the self defense training.  Just don't expect it to be that useful right away.   Steer clear of the local self defense classes at the community center.  

If you really want to be able to defend yourself with martial arts you need a real teacher and LOTS of dedication for years to come.   Most forms of martial arts are not that effective when used by a beginner.

I would look into muay thai, hapkido and jujitsu as they can be very devastating to an attacker even at beginner levels.


----------



## TrolleySwag

Chain mail?


----------



## limr

jake337 said:


> I concur on the self defense training.  Just don't expect it to be that useful right away.   Steer clear of the local self defense classes at the community center.
> 
> If you really want to be able to defend yourself with martial arts you need a real teacher and LOTS of dedication for years to come.   Most firms of martial arts are not that effective when used by a beginner.
> 
> I would look into may thai, hapkido and jujitsu as they can be very devastating to an attacker even at beginner levels.



I agree - a lot of self defense classes may ultimately be ineffective because they might teach you techniques, but when it comes to a real situation, those techniques go straight out of your head. If you really study, however, and let the habits and muscle memory form more completely, those techniques will be more useful because you won't forget them in your panic. 

And now you made me curious to check what style of karate I studied. I know it wasn't tae kwan do but I couldn't remember the name of the style. A quick Google search jogged my memory: it was Isshin-ryu. I studied for about a year and much of that first year was learning stances and routines. There were useful tricks, however, that I still remember to this day. Luckily, I've never had to test them out.


----------



## limr

TrolleySwag said:


> Chain mail?



Very practical. Much easier to change settings than when wearing the full suit of armor.


----------



## Overread

TrolleySwag said:


> Chain mail?



So now all a woman needs is red hair dye; chainmail armour, a few swords and they'll be safe from any man!



Spoiler



http://orig13.deviantart.net/d3ad/f/2007/076/d/9/savage_tales___red_sonja_cover_by_nebezial.jpg 
Sorry I've been reading Red Sonja comics the last month !


----------



## DarkShadow

I took Tae kwon do,my teacher was a maybe 5ft 2 Korean dude.When he did a spinning back kick and kicked a 70 pound work out Bag hanging off chains from the open ceiling rafters up almost as high as the rafters and it fell off the chain convinced me how deadly martial arts can be.This was a serious school, old school training  with weapons.The gymnastic ability the body will develop was incredible.That was so long ago.I probably can't kick a hole in a paper plate now.LOL


----------



## JacaRanda

Wow


----------



## NancyMoranG

JacaRanda said:


> Wow


Pass some this way!

My son signed us up for some kind of karate free 6 classes or something 25 yrs ago. He did it once, and I did go for the 6 weeks. Although, I was not into it, I did learn something. 
There was a day that they taught us some beginner move that the prep would grab my wrists and I would perform my new move.
Well... When he grabbed me, it truthfully shocked me as I have never been grabbed before. (No sexual comments appropriate here)
I never caught onto the moves and left after my time. But it was an eye opener.

My FIL is sure the entire world is what happens in the first 10 minutes of his local news. Robberies, muggings, con men, etc. and never leaves the house.
Can not, will not live that way, but I try and be careful/aware.


----------



## NancyMoranG

Limr can be happy as it seems we have moved from guns to another form of self defense.
(You know I love ya Limr! )


----------



## limr

NancyMoranG said:


> Limr can be happy as it seems we have moved from guns to another form of self defense.
> (You know I love ya Limr! )



I don't think I'm the only one who's happy about the change of subject  And I snuck in a Star Wars reference, so all is right with the world.


----------



## Designer

One of my LEO friends told me what he did to gain the respect and admiration of the instructors, who later told the boss that "it's a good thing he's on our side".  In short; he found ALL the weapons, and made the suspect safe.


----------



## limr

Overread said:


> TrolleySwag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chain mail?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now all a woman needs is red hair dye; chainmail armour, a few swords and they'll be safe from any man!
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> http://orig13.deviantart.net/d3ad/f/2007/076/d/9/savage_tales___red_sonja_cover_by_nebezial.jpg
> Sorry I've been reading Red Sonja comics the last month !
Click to expand...


Don't forget The Force!!


----------



## limr

So who else wants to go watch some re-runs of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_? No one? Just me? Okay, fine then. More popcorn for me.


----------



## JacaRanda

limr said:


> So who else wants to go watch some re-runs of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_? No one? Just me? Okay, fine then. More popcorn for me.



I'm still in shock............over the..............over how fast the mods took care of that scary post.    Replace shock with awe.


----------



## SquarePeg

JacaRanda said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So who else wants to go watch some re-runs of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_? No one? Just me? Okay, fine then. More popcorn for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still in shock............over the..............over how fast the mods took care of that scary post.    Replace shock with awe.
Click to expand...


Damn I missed it!!!


----------



## vintagesnaps

Me too!

Our training at work was more on how to be aware and preventive etc. Like, at least a couple of times I remember going to a visit (new referral) and I didn't even get out of the car. For that matter, I didn't even turn off the engine! One looked like a crack house, another looked like it was abandoned (found out later the one family had moved).

Of course in some places you're probably more likely to be aware and just stay the heck away, compared to being in a park or someplace you'd expect to be reasonably safe. Sounds like this was someplace you wouldn't think you'd have to keep an eye out, but they say anything can happen anywhere and it's good to try to be aware of surroundings.


----------



## limr

Huh, what? What am I missing?


----------



## ClaptonsGhost

Evidently the "scary" post was mine. Yeah, I imagine the truth is "scary".


----------



## limr

Don't you mean to put the ironic quotes around "truth"?


----------



## pgriz

I would really like to live in a world where the women in my life would not have to worry about stranger intentions.  We do live in a very safe city, and my daughters have over the year often come home very late at night by themselves, without any incidents.  My wife often takes walks by herself after supper, without any concerns.  But the local papers do have stories from time to time of assaults or worse.  So the possibility of some idiot or twisted person deciding to do something nefarious is very small, but non-zero.   So their approach is to stay to well-lit areas, be sure that someone knows where they are walking, and when they are expected to arrive.  Other than that, we've taken no special precautions.  On the other hand, I put a lot of store into listening to one's spidey sense.


----------



## limr

Wow. Now I just feel sorry for you. It must be exhausting to be so angry all the time.


----------



## Warhorse

In my best Rodney King voice imitation...can't we all just be friends here?


----------



## ClaptonsGhost

No


----------



## ClaptonsGhost

limr said:


> Wow. Now I just feel sorry for you. It must be exhausting to be so angry all the time.


I notice YOUR comments don't get deleted. Easy for you liberal d-bags to "win" when your opponents are silenced. Don't worry, I'm sure my account will be deleted shortly.


----------



## terri

Yep!


----------



## tirediron

terri said:


> Yep!


 It's amazing how prescient some people are!


----------



## terri

tirediron said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep!
> 
> 
> 
> It's amazing how prescient some people are!
Click to expand...

He's probably lived through it before on other forums, and has developed this power.


----------



## JacaRanda

tirediron said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep!
> 
> 
> 
> It's amazing how prescient some people are!
Click to expand...


I must admit, I had to look the word up.   It made me laugh harder


----------



## terri

Sorry for the thread hijack, folks.    

The floor show is over, let's move along!


----------



## pixmedic




----------



## Malavok

I'm overly paranoid (though I'm a guy -- I'm just paranoid about being robbed) so I always shoot in locations that are either generally safe (National Park) or near people (popular trail/park, near a busy road).

When I used to live in a big city I would go to a popular park in the morning/evening for nighttime/sunrise/sunset shots. There were always a lot of people around. If you can't do this, I would at least be very aware of your surroundings and take necessary precautions (pepper spray?)

Of course, where I live now, the biggest threat isn't people but injuring myself on a hike (slipping/falling on steep or wet terrain), getting trapped in severe weather or getting attacked by wildlife! For these, like dangerous people, you just have to take precautions (tell someone where you're going, for example).


----------



## Warhorse

JacaRanda said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> terri said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep!
> 
> 
> 
> It's amazing how prescient some people are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I must admit, I had to look the word up.   It may me laugh harder
Click to expand...

Same here!


----------



## sm4him

Malavok said:


> Of course, where I live now, the biggest threat isn't people but injuring myself on a hike (slipping/falling on steep or wet terrain)



^Truth!
I have had WAY more "close calls" when out alone by doing something stupid than by anyone suspicious around me.
I went down to a local refuge area a couple of years ago--this is a spot that during the late fall and winter has thousands of sandhill cranes that winter there, along with a huge variety of ducks.
It was early in the season, but it was the last day you could actually get access to the refuge and walk around--once the sandhills arrive en force, they restrict visitors to just the observation area at the edge of the reserve.

There were some Cranes coming in that day, quite a few of them--as well as some ducks out on the water and a couple of bald eagles. So I started working my way down towards the water.  I wanted to reach a particular spot I'd seen that the ducks seemed to favor and that had a good view of some of the cranes as they came flying in.  I decided that I could cut across through a small wooded section and it would be much shorter than trying to keep on the little trail I was following.  I should KNOW by now that any time my enthusiasm comes up with the idea of leaving a trail, it is probably a BAD plan. 

I ended up having to forge a couple of creeks, climb over tree trunks, squeeze through little bitty openings. Finally, at one point, I'm trying to claw my way over and around some fallen tree trunks AND a small creek, and I thought, "If you manage to fall and break your leg here, it will probably be the death of you, you know. They will close the gates tomorrow morning and won't find your cold, dead body until spring."

I did manage to successfully navigate the wooded obstacle course...but I took the much longer, and much safer, trail going back toward the parking lot.


----------



## JacaRanda

sm4him said:


> Malavok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, where I live now, the biggest threat isn't people but injuring myself on a hike (slipping/falling on steep or wet terrain)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^Truth!
> I have had WAY more "close calls" when out alone by doing something stupid than by anyone suspicious around me.
> I went down to a local refuge area a couple of years ago--this is a spot that during the late fall and winter has thousands of sandhill cranes that winter there, along with a huge variety of ducks.
> It was early in the season, but it was the last day you could actually get access to the refuge and walk around--once the sandhills arrive en force, they restrict visitors to just the observation area at the edge of the reserve.
> 
> There were some Cranes coming in that day, quite a few of them--as well as some ducks out on the water and a couple of bald eagles. So I started working my way down towards the water.  I wanted to reach a particular spot I'd seen that the ducks seemed to favor and that had a good view of some of the cranes as they came flying in.  I decided that I could cut across through a small wooded section and it would be much shorter than trying to keep on the little trail I was following.  I should KNOW by now that any time my enthusiasm comes up with the idea of leaving a trail, it is probably a BAD plan.
> 
> I ended up having to forge a couple of creeks, climb over tree trunks, squeeze through little bitty openings. Finally, at one point, I'm trying to claw my way over and around some fallen tree trunks AND a small creek, and I thought, "If you manage to fall and break your leg here, it will probably be the death of you, you know. They will close the gates tomorrow morning and won't find your cold, dead body until spring."
> 
> I did manage to successfully navigate the wooded obstacle course...but I took the much longer, and much safer, trail going back toward the parking lot.
Click to expand...


Your story reminds me.  On my longest hike to date with a good amount of gear on my back, I stood and stared at a creek edge for 15 minutes.  I kept contemplating whether or not to jump over (maybe 4 ft wide) or not.  The distance was not the issue.  However, everywhere my foot could land was wet and muddy.   I thought about getting the gear muddy, the camera wet, my head bumped, no cell service (in that exact spot), and the fact that I was below a dirt embankment so nobody on the trail I was hoping to reach, would see me.

It was only 4 stinking feet across.  My regular stride walking is probably a yard.  Anyway, common sense finally won out.  If only I would have chosen that side of the trail 2 miles earlier where I had a choice.  Ten or fifteen years ago, I would have done it with no hesitation at all.


----------



## limr

There are some great hiking trails around me, and they've become very very popular with the "Weekend Warrior" population from NYC. These days during the summer and especially the fall (what with the foliage and all), there are hordes and hordes of them who rent cars and drive very poorly up to the trail heads, or hop on the trains to get to the many trails that are within walking distance of the stations.

Needless to say, there are now rescue missions almost every single weekend. Apparently, some of these "Warriors" believe that heels or flip flops are good shoes to wear while hiking up a trail called Breakneck Ridge.


----------



## oFUNGUSo

you need one of these 






But seriously, that's creepy. Very creepy. I carry a can of pepper spray, a large knife, and a very bright flashlight with me any time I go out shooting at dark. I'm paranoid, and scared of strangers..........even though I'm 6'4" and 260lbs lol. I'm probably not anywhere near an ideal target for most muggers but that doesn't stop me from maintaining a high level of situational awareness, and carrying some self defense items. 

Be safe out there!


----------



## SquarePeg

Apparently I missed some action while I was working.  Stupid real life getting in the way of my Internet life!!  

I'm glad we've moved from crystal balls back to personal safety issues but have to say Limr you're ironic quote post made me literally lol.  

Getting hurt while in a remote location is much more likely to be a problem than stranger danger.  There have been plenty of times that I've had to forego a great spot because I wasn't sure I could get to it safely.  Based on many of the pics in the Landscape gallery I think we have quite a few daredevils on this site.  Hopefully they're young and free of other responsibilities.   As a single mom of a 12 year old I can't be taking chances which is why I'll be sticking to less secluded locations from now on and why I'll have to skip that sunrise from the top of a mountain or late night in the city shot unless I go with a friend or group.


----------



## rlemert

Early in this thread (I can't seem to find the post now), someone made a comment about wearing a whistle on a cord around your neck. If you do this, I'd recommend making sure the cord was some sort of "easy break" cord. Otherwise, you're just giving the bad guy another tool that he can use against you.


----------



## Overread

The biggest thing with a lot of personal safety elements like whistles, noise alarms, mace/pepperspray, martial arts is not the item itself. It's actually using it in good time. 

Loud noises work to draw attention to yourself which can work so long as:
1) You do it well in advance so that the "attacker" or risky person isn't well within reach - otherwise many might advance to silence rather than retreat to avoid.

2) There are people around to hear. Remember even in towns at certain times there will be quiet spots - again an attacker will feel empowered by this to continue rather than retreat

Mace/pepperspray/guns/martial arts is again something where you've GOT to be prepared to use it. Otherwise its not going to do you any good other than a bluff; and you've got to be confident to bluff someone that you will seriously use it. 
Any weapon you don't use upon them is simply something that you give to your attacker to use upon you; and any weapon/item you don't know how to use properly is, again, something you just give to them (knives are a fantastic example of this where generally speaking most people carrying one are more likely to get stabbed by their own knife than another persons). 


This also comes down to your situational awareness and being calm whilst panicked. Panicked people do stupid things; mostly because your general reactions and thoughts become very short term and look for quick escape points; even if long term thinking about it would result in them being poor choices for an escape. 
Being aware of your surroundings helps a lot; it helps you avoid walking into a risky spot where you might be attacked at close range without much warning; or where you are out of sight of others; or where there is little chance to escape to an area of higher population/attention. 


This is where self defence classes come in; not so much because you've got strength and skills to fight; but more because you've the confidence that you can. With that comes the ability to calm yourself more easily and with that the ability to think clearly about your situation and plan ahead more readily when in the moment.


----------



## limr

rlemert said:


> Early in this thread (I can't seem to find the post now), someone made a comment about wearing a whistle on a cord around your neck. If you do this, I'd recommend making sure the cord was some sort of "easy break" cord. Otherwise, you're just giving the bad guy another tool that he can use against you.



Good point!


----------



## vintagesnaps

I think I'll just walk around with one of my many souvenir collectible but still usable hockey sticks. And a Jason, Jason, Jason goalie mask. That ought to make 'em think twice! lol jk of course. I think.


----------



## wyogirl

There are 8 pages of replies and I haven't read them all, but here is what I do.

1. I do carry both pepper spray and a firearm.  Both of which I have trained with and as for the gun, I train with that regularly.  Pepper spray is less effective where I live because the wind is a constant.  If I'm in bear country, then I carry bear spray as it is much more effective than even a firearm against a charging bear.  What type of defensive weapon you carry is entirely up to your own personal level of comfort.... be it a gun or a big stick, or nothing at all.  In my area I'm more concerned about rattlesnakes than people so I also try to carry a first aid kit with a snake bite kit.

2. I *ALWAYS tell someone where I'll be and when to expect me back.*

3.  I make eye contact and speak with everyone that I come across.  I do this for three reasons.... one, when in college, this is what was recommended to avoid attack.  Something about looking someone in the eye makes you seem like less of a victim, or too much trouble.  I don't know if that is true, but I do it anyway.  The second reason is that I want to make sure I can identify anyone later that I might need to identify.  The third reason is that so someone might be able to identify me... if for some terrible reason my face makes it into a missing persons list.

4.  Sometimes I take my dog, when its practical.  He's a 105 lb Lab/Chow mix and would probably eat someone's face off who tried to hurt me. (he's such a good boy....lol)

5.  My head is always on the swivel.  Meaning that I'm always looking at my surroundings.  And I don't keep my eye in the viewfinder for too long.  If I am feeling that spidey sense, I'll even resort to using Live View so that I can keep a better eye on my surroundings.


----------



## dennybeall

WOW! Quite a collection of good, great and not so good ideas. IMHO if you're not *able* and *willing* to deal effectively with an attacker then you have to concentrate on not putting yourself in a bad spot because you are NOT  GOING TO WIN with a slap and a scream.
I'm 6 foot tall, weigh over 2oo pounds and carry a 9mm, a large and two small knives and no illusion that I will always win, so avoid situations that are not good.


----------



## JacaRanda

Okay.  I have a great imagination and watch a lot of t.v.  All I can think about is, strolling along with my camera, a tripod maybe, a backpack full lenses, 10 knives, and 3 guns (9mm, Glock, Model 18 semi, 44, 48, 357, 747, a Canon, and some Canon balls).

At some point the bad guy who wants just me and the camera gear (has no idea I'm packing like The Expendables).  Even though my main focus is to find a landscape shot or a bird or a spot in the park I will be taking senior portraits.  Meanwhile, I have my hand on the knife and 3 triggers of my favorite gun (because I am trained and ready for every person that walks by and looks like a bad guy criminal).  Except when they saw every move I made since I arrived.  I find the spot, I put my eye up to the viewfinder and that's when the boogeyman jumps out with a bigger Canon than mine (probably a Nikon).  He points it at me while all my other 800 weapons are on the ground in my backpack.   "JacaRanda - drop the camera and move away from the gear".  Okay, can I trust you won't shoot me while I reach for my 747, 357, 48 and shoot you?  Or will the bad guy with a gun pointed at me (from far enough away that I could not use a spinning back fist or kick) get all my gear and my 10 inch knife, my 15 inch knife, my Glick, glock, 10cm, M16 and ...........

BTW, I'm 6'1 and 245 lbs.  Probably not considered an easy target except by a criminal mind that does not give a crap what size I am.

Sorry - hard to read, but I was excited and don't really care this time.


----------



## thereyougo!

sm4him said:


> 5. Carry something to call for help, and to defend yourself. Your cell phone, absolutely--but also a whistle. Mace. A knife. At the very, very least, a good heavy stick.
> 
> 6. Have a PLAN. If you DO encounter something like your situation, what are you going to do? Know beforehand how you're going to handle things. Let's say, somehow, I hadn't noticed that guy, and I'd gotten a little closer before I saw him. And there's nowhere for me to go to hide. I'd IMMEDIATELY decide what I have that I can do damage with--INCLUDING my camera if necessary. It's insured and I wouldn't hesitate to bash someone in the head with it if they intended me harm.
> 
> 7. Get trained. Get some defense training if you plan to be out alone. Seriously. There is NO substitute for at least being prepared if something happens.  I can't say I could stop a 6'3", 250-lb. man in his tracks if he intended me harm--but I can definitely say I'd go down swinging, and he WOULD have some battle scars.



This advice is dependant on your location.  If the police in the UK caught you carrying a knife, you would be in some trouble.


----------



## sm4him

Don't know why this made me think of this thread.


----------



## Solarflare

Thats of course a camera body, I persume ?


----------



## dennybeall

I'll never understand... I'm guiding a 5000 pound missile down a marked path while I eat a burger and text my friend and am perfectly comfortable and yet a person shows me a small metal tool that fits in their hand and I go completely catatonic with fear.....
How about a photo essay of reactions to various tools. Start at an RV dealer where they hand a 78 year old guy the keys to a 40 foot behemoth and send him driving down the highway at 75 miles per hour.


----------



## sm4him

Solarflare said:


> Thats of course a camera body, I persume ?



Don't be ridiculous. I would NEVER drag my camera on the ground.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

Personally, I carry a gun; a little Colt .380 Government Model. I'm very proficient with it. I understand, though, that doing that isn't for everyone.

A very good option, if you're using one, is an open tripod. Don't try to hit an attacker with it. If you miss (which you probably will), you've lost your chance to defend yourself with it. Instead, lift the tripod and charge an attacker with it with the open legs towards the attacker. If you keep running, you're going to push the attacker back, and there won't be a lot the attacker will be able to do about it. Sooner or later he's falling backwards and, when he does, the very first thought to go through his head is that he probably doesn't want to mess with you.

I'm 6'2, 275 pounds. If a woman who tips is at 140 runs at me in this manner, I'm going to have a difficult time stopping her. I've used this very technique against a rather upset Rottweiler once, and it works like a charm. I was actually able to pin the dog to the ground.

Whistles are good. If I'm in a remote area, and I here someone frantically blowing a whistle, I'm going to investigate. Also, yelling "fire" is always preferable to yelling "help". Yelling anything about a child or an animal being in danger will attract attention.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

thereyougo! said:


> This advice is dependant on your location.  If the police in the UK caught you carrying a knife, you would be in some trouble.



Before I acquired my concealed carry permit, I carried a concealed weapon.

I justified it this way: If I didn't need it, no one would ever know I had it. If I _did _need it, I would be thankful that I was around to be charged for having it.


----------



## Designer

Mr. Innuendo said:


> .. charge an attacker with it ..


Well, this is wrong.  Charging at someone (weapon or not) is not the same as defending one's self.


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## pixmedic

Big cup of _*NOPE*_ on where this thread is headed guys. 
let not go there ok?
thanks.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

Designer said:


> Mr. Innuendo said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. charge an attacker with it ..
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this is wrong.  Charging at someone (weapon or not) is not the same as defending one's self.
Click to expand...


I could've been more clear.

If removing one's self isn't an option (an is he'll catch you if you run), being passive will normally yield unfavorable results. Being proactive will throw an attacker off. An attacker relies, in no small part, on his victim being afraid and passive.


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## JacaRanda

Time for me to find a new hobby.  I've been engaged in risky behavior.  Snake chaps for sale.


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## The_Traveler

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?src=me


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## astroNikon

Guns aren't needed all the time to feel safe.

one of these in your pocket/purse might go a long way though ==> Amazon Best Sellers: Best Stun Guns


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## Warhorse

The_Traveler said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?src=me



Oh horse pucky.

The Times, yeah...that's an unbiased news agency if I ever saw one.


----------



## JacaRanda

Warhorse said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?src=me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh horse pucky.
> 
> The Times, yeah...that's an unbiased news agency if I ever saw one.
Click to expand...


LOL, I knew this reply would come soon.  
But I thought it would include a link to something showing exactly the opposite info or stats.


----------



## The_Traveler

Warhorse said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?src=me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh horse pucky.
> 
> The Times, yeah...that's an unbiased news agency if I ever saw one.
Click to expand...



Rather than reading the underlying report with figures quoted and respond to that, you want to minimize the point because you don't like the opinion.
That is called the 'backfire effect' (less, popularly 'confirmation bias') and it has been extesnively studied and measured

In Politics, Sometimes The Facts Don't Matter

backfire effect - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

_In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when *misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.* - See more at: How facts backfire_

.​I await a scathing comment about research, scientists, universities or Michigan, the state where the research was done.
.​


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## The_Traveler

In Politics, Sometimes The Facts Don't Matter

CONAN: And when facts are readily available, why are they not enough to change people's minds?

Mr. NYHAN:_* Well, the problem is, you know, as human beings, we want to believe, you know, the things that we already believe. And so when you hear some information that contradicts your pre-existing views, unfortunately, what we tend to do is think of why we believed those things in the first place.

And, you know, so when, you know, we get these corrections, we tend to say I'm right, and I'm going to stick with my view. And the thing that my research, which is with Jason Reifler at Georgia State University, found is that in some cases, that corrective information can actually make the problem worse.*_​


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## pixmedic

Smartphone stun gun. My wife carries one.


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## Warhorse

It is just politics as usual, for both sides of the spectrum. 

It is hardly worth arguing the points against or for anymore, it is true that neither side is swayed much by the other.


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## JoeW

I've got a couple of comments to make:

1.  In an ideal world, you're preventing an event from happening.  I'm not sure how well a Concealed Carry permit is going to help unless you have enough warning to pull the weapon, warn off the potential attacker, they have time to realize "this is stupid" and then turn around and run. 

2.  This is more than just a gender issue.  I'm sure it's true for most photographers that once the camera comes up, our situational awareness changes.  We are not seeing things the same way we would if there was no camera. I had a tripod develop "legs" when I was shooting at Great Falls with a couple of spectators who walked by, I turned around and it was gone.  There are a number of instances where photographers have made the news b/c they were a victim of a robbery or crime....camera gear is attractive and relatively easy to fence.

3.  Anything you can do to deter a possible incident is better than having to respond to an attack.  I say this b/c...quite simply, if you're responding, the chances are that you're caught by surprise and your chances of handling your weapon (be it a taser, pepper spray, a gun, whatever) aren't good.  Even trained professionals (military and cops) will get caught unprepared and fire wildly or not at all--that's part of the principle behind the "Model Mugging" program (that you can carry a weapon or learn martial arts and when you get surprised you fail to use it).  If you think I'm exaggerating on this, I want you to think of how many times you were out hiking with your camera at the ready and you missed that elk who jumped across the path or the eagle taking off from the branch over your head or the bear that ambled across the creek crossing.  Great shots and you were fumbling to get your camera out or lens cap off and never got off a shot (or it was horribly out of focus).  And that's with something (your camera) that you've probably used more often then you any weapon you're likely carrying.  I agree with Lew on this point about the likelihood of guns being effective for situations like this.  But even if you disagree and decide to get a permit to carry and you train, do realize there is a significant chance that if you're jumped, you'll never get your gun out.

4.  So from my perspective, the best options are a combination of planning and situational awareness:
--Think through where you're going to shoot.  If it's new territory for you, find people who've shot there before that can give you a better feel for the area.  Sometimes you may decide to take a pass on an area b/c you don't have a good feel for the safety level.
--Always carry a cellphone and check to be sure you've got coverage in that area.  If not, reconsider if you want to go there.  Separate from an attack or crime, you can always break an ankle or a decaying floor gives way and you fall through and find yourself in an unbeaten area unable to get yourself out.
--Pay attention when you get in to parking lots.  See if there are police or park rangers near by.  Get a sense of who's likely to be in that area and what resources are available (other hikers, police) you can call on.  Pick up a map of the area (that shows paths, cabins, rest stops, phone kiosks, etc.
--Consider a companion.  Another shooter or two.  Join a photo meet-up group and then coordinate shoots to places at the time you want to shoot there.  For instance, I set up a night-time shoot on the DC Mall to shoot the Lincoln Memorial, the US Institute of Peace, etc....we got lots of females shooters...but we had safety in numbers (and a couple of them told me this).  A dog can be a good asset (even if he's not big or an "attack" dog).  BTW, here's a hint if you own a dog...teach him to bark or growl on command.  And your command for your dog to growl is:  "no bite, no bite."  Tell that to a dog that is growling and most approaching individuals will figure they can't "friend" their way past the dog, they're going to take a couple of bites (even from a small dog) and like reconsider.
--As you shoot, always take quick breaks to put the camera down and look round you.  Check the environment.  Listen for other hikers.  Scan for anyone who's being a voyeur of sorts.  I had a chance to talk to a Brit who had gone through the British Jungle Warfare School in Malaysia...where they do their jungle training.  He was taught that when you're out in the boonies you stop every couple of minutes and just take the lay of things...see if you hear any unordinary sounds, a flock of birds suddenly taking flight, and that when you do this as a habit...you start to acquire a sense that warns you "something's different."


----------



## JacaRanda

Warhorse said:


> It is just politics as usual, for both sides of the spectrum.
> 
> It is hardly worth arguing the points against or for anymore, it is true that neither side is swayed much by the other.



Sucks that it is considered politics. One, because it could get the thread locked.  Two, because I'm guessing most of us here are not politicians, yet concerned human beings that would benefit from the truth of statistics.  I would like to be swayed by the truth.  If the truth is that I (more importantly my children) are safer because more people around me are carrying or simply owners, I would gladly be swayed.


----------



## The_Traveler

Warhorse said:


> It is just politics as usual, for both sides of the spectrum.
> 
> It is hardly worth arguing the points against or for anymore, it is true that neither side is swayed much by the other.



Again, you don't deal with the facts of the report, just want to get out of the issue by saying it is politics.

That is the classic 'backfire' effect.


----------



## pixmedic

Did I hear the word "politics" mentioned? This thread isn't getting political is it? Of course it isn't because that would be against forum rules!


----------



## JacaRanda

pixmedic said:


> Did I hear the word "politics" mentioned? This thread isn't getting political is it? Of course it isn't because that would be against forum rules!



Nope, didn't see or hear a thing.


----------



## JacaRanda

JoeW said:


> 1. In an ideal world, you're preventing an event from happening. I'm not sure how well a Concealed Carry permit is going to help unless you have enough warning to pull the weapon, warn off the potential attacker, they have time to realize "this is stupid" and then turn around and run.
> 
> 2. This is more than just a gender issue. I'm sure it's true for most photographers that once the camera comes up, are situational awareness changes. We are not seeing things the same way we would if there was no camera. I had a tripod develop "legs" when I was shooting at Great Falls with a couple of spectators who walked by, I turned around and it was gone. There are a number of instances where photographers have made the new b/c they were a victim of a robbery or crime....camera gear is attractive and relatively easy to fence.
> 
> 3. Anything you can do to deter a possible incident is better than having to respond to an attack. I say this b/c...quite simply, if you're responding, the chances are that you're caught by surprise and your chances of handling your weapon (be it a taser, pepper spray, a gun, whatever) aren't good. Even trained professionals (military and cops) will get caught unprepared and fire wildly or not at all--that's part of the principle behind the "Model Mugging" program (that you can carry a weapon or learn martial arts and when you get surprised you fail to use it). If you think I'm exaggerating on this, I want you to think of how many times you were out hiking with your camera at the ready and you missed that elk who jumped across the path or the eagle taking off from the branch over your head or the bear that ambled across the creek crossing. Great shots and you were fumbling to get your camera out or lens cap off and never got off a shot (or it was horribly out of focus). And that's with something (your camera) that you've probably used more often then you any weapon you're likely carrying. I agree with Lew on this point about the likelihood of guns being effective for situations like this. But even if you disagree and decide to get a permit to carry and you train, do realize there is a significant chance that if you're jumped, you'll never get your gun out.



Could not have said this better but glad you did.  Hoping to see counter responses to it; if there are any.


----------



## vintagesnaps

From what I've understood the thing is with carrying any sort of weapon or device is whether or not you could use it; if you're caught unawares there may or may not be time to react.

I had one experience doing home visits where a guy passed me and nodded and I nodded back and then the realization sunk in, did he have something under his jacket?? I walked very fast the last few feet to the car, hopped in and got the heck out of there. If Mr. Friendly neighborhood drug dealer (and I don't know that but would consider it a possibility) wanted to take me out I don't know that I could have done anything or not to prevent it. But trying to be alert, park close to where I'm going, schedule early mornings before things get hopping, etc. could be preventive (and carrying baby toys probably made me appear as not much of a threat to the livelihood of any Mr. Drug dealer types around).

Of course something could happen anyplace, and thinking about how many home visits we did in our jobs, in 20+ years we had some odd situations but nothing life threatening or close to putting our lives in real danger. So maybe the odds are against an attack or abduction and everyday routine happenings aren't what you see on the news.

Being in a park of course is a situation where in a way, maybe more likely to be a place where you wouldn't expect to have to be too concerned about safety. I agree, prevention and awareness are probably best as much as possible.


----------



## JacaRanda

vintagesnaps said:


> Being in a park of course is a situation where in a way, maybe more likely to be a place where you wouldn't expect to have to be too concerned about safety. I agree, prevention and awareness are probably best as much as possible.



Agree.


----------



## Warhorse

The_Traveler said:


> Warhorse said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is just politics as usual, for both sides of the spectrum.
> 
> It is hardly worth arguing the points against or for anymore, it is true that neither side is swayed much by the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you don't deal with the facts of the report, just want to get out of the issue by saying it is politics.
> 
> That is the classic 'backfire' effect.
Click to expand...

"Backfire" may well indeed play a huge roll in politics for a lot of people including myself, as well as you.
As described in the report, it sounds like a psychological condition in that we all have a desire to be right, and want our "team" to win. 

I also "loath" psychology, just more of my "backfire" thought process I guess.


----------



## astroNikon

we're not talking about guns (or stun guns) and backfiring right ?

good .. that could hurt ..


----------



## rlemert

I have often wondered how I am supposed to be feeling safer when behind me there's a nut trying to take out as many people as he can, while in front of me is an untrained cowboy, too excited to even think straight - and probably scared out of his mind, that thinks he's going to play hero. Isn't being caught in a crossfire more dangerous than being shot at from only one direction?


----------



## Warhorse

vintagesnaps said:


> From what I've understood the thing is with carrying any sort of weapon or device is whether or not you could use it; if you're caught unawares there may or may not be time to react.
> 
> I had one experience doing home visits where a guy passed me and nodded and I nodded back and then the realization sunk in, did he have something under his jacket?? I walked very fast the last few feet to the car, hopped in and got the heck out of there. If Mr. Friendly neighborhood drug dealer (and I don't know that but would consider it a possibility) wanted to take me out I don't know that I could have done anything or not to prevent it. But trying to be alert, park close to where I'm going, schedule early mornings before things get hopping, etc. could be preventive (and carrying baby toys probably made me appear as not much of a threat to the livelihood of any Mr. Drug dealer types around).
> 
> Of course something could happen anyplace, and thinking about how many home visits we did in our jobs, in 20+ years we had some odd situations but nothing life threatening or close to putting our lives in real danger. So maybe the odds are against an attack or abduction and everyday routine happenings aren't what you see on the news.
> 
> Being in a park of course is a situation where in a way, maybe more likely to be a place where you wouldn't expect to have to be too concerned about safety. I agree, prevention and awareness are probably best as much as possible.


Situational awareness is a big part of personal defense whether one is armed or unarmed.


----------



## katsrevenge

JoeW said:


> A dog can be a good asset (even if he's not big or an "attack" dog).  BTW, here's a hint if you own a dog...teach him to bark or growl on command.  And your command for your dog to growl is:  "no bite, no bite."  Tell that to a dog that is growling and most approaching individuals will figure they can't "friend" their way past the dog, they're going to take a couple of bites (even from a small dog) and like reconsider.
> --As you shoot, always take quick breaks to put the camera down and look round you.  Check the environment.  Listen for other hikers.  Scan for anyone who's being a voyeur of sorts.  I had a chance to talk to a Brit who had gone through the British Jungle Warfare School in Malaysia...where they do their jungle training.  He was taught that when you're out in the boonies you stop every couple of minutes and just take the lay of things...see if you hear any unordinary sounds, a flock of birds suddenly taking flight, and that when you do this as a habit...you start to acquire a sense that warns you "something's different."



Between hiking and biking I'm off in the woods by myself quite a lot. And now I'm out at odd hours late at night/very early trying to take decent photos. I say that these two things are key. 

I like to take my loud little dog with me, if I'm going to be out late. She's noisy (which draws a lot of attention) and most attackers want nothing to do with that. 

If you are out in the American woods... listen for squirrel warnings and jays/crows. Yes, they will all warn when you first show up but most settle down after a while. If they raise a ruckus again take a look around. It might be a hawk.. it might be another person. I think it's neat that this is something they teach... here I thought it was me just being odd!


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

The_Traveler said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html?src=me



That's an Op/Ed piece; pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

rlemert said:


> I have often wondered how I am supposed to be feeling safer when behind me there's a nut trying to take out as many people as he can, while in front of me is an untrained cowboy, too excited to even think straight - and probably scared out of his mind, that thinks he's going to play hero. Isn't being caught in a crossfire more dangerous than being shot at from only one direction?



This assumes that every person carrying a concealed weapon is an untrained cowboy who's too scared to think straight and probably scared out of his mind who thinks he's going to play hero. That's just not the case. In fact, you would probably be quite surprised at the number of people you encounter every day who are carrying a gun.

I've used my concealed weapon twice: Once to protect myself and once to protect someone else. I promise you, the person I protected remains quite happy that I was there when I was.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

JacaRanda said:


> But I thought it would include a link to something showing exactly the opposite info or stats.



I don't need "stats". If I wasn't armed when I was, I would be dead right now.

No "stat" on the planet will ever sway me.


----------



## JacaRanda

Mr. Innuendo said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought it would include a link to something showing exactly the opposite info or stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need "stats". If I wasn't armed when I was, I would be dead right now.
> 
> No "stat" on the planet will ever sway me.
Click to expand...

Truly glad for you and the person you saved. . Glad you are ready for every situation possible and hopefully you will be able to save the next person from suicide or the next child in school. . We need a few million more Innuendos to save us.


----------



## AprilK

My husband always worries when I go out alone whether it be early or late. When my twins were toddlers, he signed me up for a self defense class. I have taken a new one every few years as a refresher. One thing they teach is to be observant of your surroundings.

When I go out there are a few things I have. My pepper spray, a pocket knife, and a whistle. I actually had to use the pepper spray a year ago, not on a person but on a dog. I have a hobby of looking for fossils and interesting rocks. I was at an old gravel pit when I heard a dog growling. I hadn't been paying attention and startled it. I tried to back away but it started to follow. It continued to growl and I could see the hair along its back was raised up. I had about 50 yards between me and my car. Normally I would avoid hurting an animal if possible but I made a decision. I unlocked my spray and aimed a squirt toward the dog. It yelped and started running in circles and I ran for my car. I then called the owner of the property to see if it was his dog. It was not so I called animal control so they could come and check it out. I'm not sure what I would have did if I didn't have my spray.

Oh, I also use a Bluetooth ear piece and set my phone to call out with a verbal command. Hopefully I will never be in a situation where I will have to use anything against another person but you never know and it is much better to be prepared!


----------



## dennybeall

Interesting that the anti-gun folks say things like "could" "may" "if" "what if" and the pro-carry folks speak of actual real situations with personal or well documented information.
Ninety-nine percent of the people I have contact with on a daily basis have no idea that I am, and have been, armed at all times for 20+ years.


----------



## BillM

Bring 150 bs of this with you, most people with bad intentions don't want anything to do with a big set of well trained teeth


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

JacaRanda said:


> Mr. Innuendo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought it would include a link to something showing exactly the opposite info or stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need "stats". If I wasn't armed when I was, I would be dead right now.
> 
> No "stat" on the planet will ever sway me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Truly glad for you and the person you saved. . Glad you are ready for every situation possible and hopefully you will be able to save the next person from suicide or the next child in school. . We need a few million more Innuendos to save us.
Click to expand...


Well, I've never said I was ready for every situation possible, so I would appreciate you not lying about that, if it's all the same to you.

That said, yeah, you definitely could use a few more Innuendos. If I'm going to be a "victim", the perpetrator is gonna' work for it.


----------



## Mr. Innuendo

BillM said:


> Bring 150 bs of this with you, most people with bad intentions don't want anything to do with a big set of well trained teeth



I grew up with Danes. GREAT dogs.


----------



## limr

I wish someone would shoot this thread.


----------



## JacaRanda

dennybeall said:


> Interesting that the anti-gun folks say things like "could" "may" "if" "what if" and the pro-carry folks speak of actual real situations with personal or well documented information.
> Ninety-nine percent of the people I have contact with on a daily basis have no idea that I am, and have been, armed at all times for 20+ years.


What if, could,  possible, may; aren't those reasons you carry?  Or do you do it just to feel maucho,  rambo, commando?


----------



## JacaRanda

Mr. Innuendo said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Innuendo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought it would include a link to something showing exactly the opposite info or stats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need "stats". If I wasn't armed when I was, I would be dead right now.
> 
> No "stat" on the planet will ever sway me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Truly glad for you and the person you saved. . Glad you are ready for every situation possible and hopefully you will be able to save the next person from suicide or the next child in school. . We need a few million more Innuendos to save us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I've never said I was ready for every situation possible, so I would appreciate you not lying about that, if it's all the same to you.
> 
> That said, yeah, you definitely could use a few more Innuendos. If I'm going to be a "victim", the perpetrator is gonna' work for it.
Click to expand...

If it's all the same to you,  put me on ignore.  Don't know you, so can't lie about you.  However,  I don't believe you are a superhero and ever saved anyone. Be all that you can be on the internet though.


----------



## Overread

Considering that we are mostly now fighting back and forth between the pro and anti-gun people I think it is time this thread went to sleep. We've had a lot of good suggestions for personal safety arise to give people a wide range of options to choose from.


----------

