# clients making their own edits...



## Montanamyst (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok, so I've only done a few practice shoots, and gave the client a copy of the CD with printing rights.  But, I have a question.  How do you handle clients cropping the photos, or changing them to a horrible black and white, or etc for facebook.  I just had a mom crop a family photo and post it on facebook with my name, and she cropped herself out so that it showed just her husband and the 2 boys, but you can see her shoulder, and it looks horrible.  I don't want people thinking I did this.  Do I give up those rights with a print release?  I had another one turn it black and white.  Its so irritating.

Thanks


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Dont give them the CD.


----------



## Tee (Aug 21, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> Do I give up those rights with a print release?



What does your print release say?


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Tee said:


> What does your print release say?




Doesn't really matter unless she's willing to back it up with a lawyer and a lawsuit.


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 21, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > What does your print release say?
> ...




No, I'm not going to go that far, I don't want to burn any bridges when I'm just learning.  But for future shoots, I'm gonna put that in the release that no edits can be made and posted on the web.  The black and white really doesn't bother me that much, especially if they are gonna use it in their home, but really...don't make your own edits for FB....ugh!


----------



## Tee (Aug 21, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > What does your print release say?
> ...



Why wouldn't it matter and why would she need to lawyer up?


----------



## Tee (Aug 21, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> > Tee said:
> ...



OK, but what does your print release say?  Did you copy from a template?  Make up your own?


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> But for future shoots, I'm gonna put that in the release that no edits can be made and posted on the web.




And what I'm saying is that you can state in the release that they can't edit anything or you'll beat them with a bat, but unless you're prepared to follow up on that contract, its absolutely meaningless. 

People don't care about model releases and contracts, they only care about the price and the disc. If you give them the disc, you are basically allowing them to do what they want with it - cropping, B&W treatments, selective coloring and all.

So as I said, you can yell contract! contract! contract! until you are blue in the face.... they'll continue to crop and edit your photos until you serve them with papers.


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Tee said:


> Why wouldn't it matter and why would she need to lawyer up?




People aren't afraid of a contract. Its a paper with ink on it. It doesn't magically enforce the consequences on its own.


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 21, 2012)

Tee said:


> Montanamyst said:
> 
> 
> > ChristopherCoy said:
> ...



No, I borrowed one from a photographer friend. It just gives printing rights and they are allowed to publies to blog or website as lone as full credit is given to me.


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> No, I borrowed one from a photographer friend. It just gives printing rights and they are allowed to publies to blog or website as lone as full credit is given to me.




Did it work? Did it stop them?


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 21, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Montanamyst said:
> 
> 
> > No, I borrowed one from a photographer friend. It just gives printing rights and they are allowed to publies to blog or website as lone as full credit is given to me.
> ...




I know I know, but until I build a clientale, and if I decide to ever start a business, I don't want anything negative out there, but then you have the crappy crops, so who knows...I guess I'm just ranting!  But in the future...I may just have to do something about it.


----------



## Tee (Aug 21, 2012)

Technically it did work since she didn't have any usuage verbage.  They did credit her, albeit after botching her image.


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

Tee said:


> Technically it did work since she didn't have any usuage verbage.  They did credit her, albeit after botching her image.




That'd be kinda like me stealing your car, racking up parking tickets, and then blaming it on you.


----------



## gsgary (Aug 22, 2012)

Montanamyst said:
			
		

> Ok, so I've only done a few practice shoots, and gave the client a copy of the CD with printing rights.  But, I have a question.  How do you handle clients cropping the photos, or changing them to a horrible black and white, or etc for facebook.  I just had a mom crop a family photo and post it on facebook with my name, and she cropped herself out so that it showed just her husband and the 2 boys, but you can see her shoulder, and it looks horrible.  I don't want people thinking I did this.  Do I give up those rights with a print release?  I had another one turn it black and white.  Its so irritating.
> 
> Thanks



Live with it or only sell them prints they probably paid peanuts for the disc


----------



## tirediron (Aug 22, 2012)

Have you tried calling her and explaining the situation to her?  99 times out of one hundred people either don't read or don't pay attention to what they do read in things like that.  I can almost guarentee she has no clue that she's done anything wrong.  Call her up, say you noticed that she'd done this and ask if she was unhappy with the images you'd delivered.  Tell her that you'd be happy to do some additional editing for her for a nominal fee, and gently explain that as the artist and copy-right holder, she really isn't allowed to do this.  I use the software analogy; most people understand, even if they don't care, that you don't actually buy the software, but rather just the right to use it.  

The first step should ALWAYS be an attempt at a polite, rational discussion.  If that doesn't work, then you can ratchet things up from there, but never start there.


----------



## orljustin (Aug 22, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> Ok, so I've only done a few practice shoots, and gave the client a copy of the CD with printing rights.  But, I have a question.  How do you handle clients cropping the photos, or changing them to a horrible black and white, or etc for facebook.  I just had a mom crop a family photo and post it on facebook with my name, and she cropped herself out so that it showed just her husband and the 2 boys, but you can see her shoulder, and it looks horrible.  I don't want people thinking I did this.  Do I give up those rights with a print release?  I had another one turn it black and white.  Its so irritating.
> 
> Thanks



For the love of... Let the people do what they want with what they paid for and don't worry about it.  If they liked your work, and someone asks, they'll point them to your site.


----------



## Tee (Aug 22, 2012)

Whether or not one feels contracts are irrelevent, it's good practice to draft one up and it's one more piece of information should thing go awry.  Including usage rights can help prevent any issues like the OP is experiencing.  Every model I shoot, trade or paid, signs a release and a usage agreement.  With that said, I have to agree with tirediron in that it may be harmless/ ignorance.  More importantly, I'd find out why she thought she needed to retouch your images.


----------



## Tee (Aug 22, 2012)

orljustin said:


> For the love of... Let the people do what they want with what they paid for and don't worry about it.  If they liked your work, and someone asks, they'll point them to your site.



Altering her images violates copyright.  She was paid, or at least hired, because the client felt she could produce work better than her own.  I'm really surprised on a photography forum another photographer has no problems with a client manipulating a photographers work, paid or not.


----------



## orljustin (Aug 22, 2012)

Tee said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > For the love of... Let the people do what they want with what they paid for and don't worry about it.  If they liked your work, and someone asks, they'll point them to your site.
> ...



When you buy a car, you can modify it as you see fit.  When you buy a painting, you can put it in whatever frame you like.  If a buyer wants to crop an image to highlight their kids to show their friends, no, I have no issue with that.  I look at photos as the raw material the client needs to produce the message they desire.


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 22, 2012)

Put it in the contract. Make sure you go over your contract in detail. Put it in writing on in the CD case-go over it in detail. It helps to explain the legal issue but also WHY you care: 
The images that I make represent ME and MY style. If someone else edits my images it's no longer a representation of my style. If it's not a flattering edit to my style, it makes my work look bad and reflects upon me and my business. 

Crop happens when people print. There is no way to avoid that because your single sized image on that CD doesn't print to every print ratio. If you are going to worry about the crop, then put a different file of the image in every print ratio you can find on the CD. However, crop doesn't happen to cut a person out of the image. Just explain to her the problem nicely and why. 

Register your copyright every 90 days if you really want to be able to pursue any major violations. Most people just don't know and if you explain to them that editing is illegal and ask them to take it down they apologize and say they didn't know. Then the image disappears and you're fine


----------



## tirediron (Aug 22, 2012)

orljustin said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...


You don't. but the OP does.  The law is on her side.  I generally don't mind clients doing minor things to images when I provide them with digital files, but I would not be happy if they had done anything which I felt made the image look bad.  For what it's worth, there's a world of difference between buying a car and paying for a photograph.  Under normal circumstances, photographs are analagous to software.  You pay for the physical item, but really what you're buying is the *righ*t to display or use it exactly the way it was given to you.  You do not have the right to change, modify or edit the work.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Aug 22, 2012)

Montanamyst said:
			
		

> I know I know, but until I build a clientale, and if I decide to ever start a business, I don't want anything negative out there, but then you have the crappy crops, so who knows...I guess I'm just ranting!  But in the future...I may just have to do something about it.



Wrong answer. You don't have the luxury of having your cake and eating it to. The second you accept payment for photography services, legally you are presenting yourself as a professional and accepting full liability and everything else that comes with running a business, including enforcing the terms in your contract.

If you truly value your reputation as you say you do, you must immediately stop accepting ANY paid clients if you're not prepared to operate as a legitimate business. This includes, among other things, carrying the business license appropriate for your state, liability insurance, possessing an ironclad contract and any applicable releases.

Sure, you can ignore these things, and carry on your merry way. Most "professional photographers" do. However, most of the people out there who accept paid clients don't know the first thing about running a business, and usually very quickly shrink back to the rat hole they emerged from. Sadly, the percentage of supposed professionals who do everything by the book is quite small. 

If you don't get yourself in order before the next time you go shoot, a few bad crops and ugly B&W conversions are going to be the least of your worries. The IRS or someone suing you are quite a bit more fun to deal with than embarrassing FB pictures.


----------



## rexbobcat (Aug 22, 2012)

orljustin said:
			
		

> When you buy a car, you can modify it as you see fit.  When you buy a painting, you can put it in whatever frame you like.  If a buyer wants to crop an image to highlight their kids to show their friends, no, I have no issue with that.  I look at photos as the raw material the client needs to produce the message they desire.



You don't seem to understand the concepts of copyright...

You can look at it however you want from a personal standpoint, but legally you are indeed wrong.


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 22, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Montanamyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Please, if you value yourself, your equipment, your possible future business, your home, car and assets, PLEASE stop doing this. If you value the business you are looking at possibly going into as a whole, please don't do this. 

It is REALLY easy and really inexpensive to get your required licensing I think that cost me $20. 
You also will need to get a sales tax ID number for your state. For me that was free. The hassle part of it is charging and reporting sales tax. You have to get an education on what is and isn't taxable and that varies from state to state, county to county and even municipality to municipality in some locations. However, believe it or not-they are out there hunting on craigslist and by any other means possible for illegitimate business. I got the call once for a derivative of my business. I was covered because it was a part of my whole business, but I have heard so many nightmares from (it seems like mom's usually) who got THE CALL from the state and they can charge you the AVERAGE sales tax for the type of business you are in for as long as THEY determine you've been doing business. When that is all over and done? They then report you to the IRS. It really does happen. 
On top of that if you are even a sole proprietor you run the risk of everything you own should a lawsuit happen. It's just not worth it. 
Not to mention the respect issue for the industry and business you are entering. Not so much the competition because I firmly believe you are no competition and neither am I. But for the integrity of the professional photography industry.
You then will need to report your income on your personal income taxes and pay any appropriate taxes on any profits you may have. It's not much when you are playing at things like you are. Most of you are showing a loss in equipment and education anyway. 
Those two things will get you to legal. It might cost you $100 if it is really, outrageously expensive in your location. It's worth the peace of mind to report 0 for sales if you have none and send it in instead of taking any chance that you could be haunted by the government. 

An indemnification/errors and omissions type insurance policy is a must, in my opinion. The risk of a lawsuit for ANYTHING is big in the US. You can literally sue for ANYTHING and win. It could be a totally outrageous claim, but if they've got a good lawyer and a sympathetic judge? It can and does happen. Photographers are really getting a bad rep from people much like you who are playing at this and make a little tiny (even innocent) mistake and someone makes a big "to do" about it. It's common to hear a photog who has gone to court with every thing in their favor only to come out bowled over because the judge said something like "you know how those photographers are..." 
Please protect yourself.


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 22, 2012)

Yes, I know all these things...my original post never said anything about being paid.  It was a practice shoot.  I already have my liability insurance, and if I decide to ever go into business, I will get a license.  I have been an judicial assistant to a Superior Court Judge for many years, so yes, I know the laws, I know people sue.  I've seen this on this board before where everyone goes off on a tangent about business license, insurance, etc when its not even a part of the original question.  



MLeeK said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > Montanamyst said:
> ...


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 22, 2012)

Please see my OP.  Did I even once say I accepted money.  It was a practice shoot.  I have liability ins, and "IF" I ever decide to go into business, I plan on getting my business license.  Trust me, I am very familiar with legal issues, as its my job.



jamesbjenkins said:


> Montanamyst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 22, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> Yes, I know all these things...my original post never said anything about being paid.  It was a practice shoot.  I already have my liability insurance, and if I decide to ever go into business, I will get a license.  I have been an judicial assistant to a Superior Court Judge for many years, so yes, I know the laws, I know people sue.  I've seen this on this board before where everyone goes off on a tangent about business license, insurance, etc when its not even a part of the original question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your post quoted up there alludes to it very much. Forgive me for caring for the industry and anyone like you who is working at this with "clients." I have seen too many people go down in this for no reason. If looking out for your interests is a problem? Well, then it's your problem and not mine. I didn't take off on a tangent and give you hell. I very politely completely explained my stance regarding your comments.


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 22, 2012)

orljustin said:


> When you buy a car, you can modify it as you see fit.  When you buy a painting, you can put it in whatever frame you like.  If a buyer wants to crop an image to highlight their kids to show their friends, no, I have no issue with that.  I look at photos as the raw material the client needs to produce the message they desire.




That goes down as the absolute *dumbest *thing I have ever heard a '_photographer_' say.... And I've said some pretty dumb things. But congratulations, I'm passing you the torch.

If the client is creating the message, what the hell are you needed for?


----------



## Tee (Aug 22, 2012)

OP: did you make any headway on the offender?


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 22, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Montanamyst said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I know all these things...my original post never said anything about being paid.  It was a practice shoot.  I already have my liability insurance, and if I decide to ever go into business, I will get a license.  I have been an judicial assistant to a Superior Court Judge for many years, so yes, I know the laws, I know people sue.  I've seen this on this board before where everyone goes off on a tangent about business license, insurance, etc when its not even a part of the original question.
> ...



Sorry I used the word "client and "clientale"  what word should I have used?  I've been doing practice shoots, not opening a business.  I am enrolled courses in a local college, so yes i care for the industry as well.  I'm not trying to just go out pick up a camera and open a business.  I am learning the craft, as most people on this forum.


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 22, 2012)

Would you perhaps be in a foul mood tonight?


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 22, 2012)

maybe so..I've had a pretty rotten day, got some bad news from my best friend.  So sorry if I'm touchy.  



MLeeK said:


> Would you perhaps be in a foul mood tonight?


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 22, 2012)

THought maybe so. I have been here and done that... It's not a great place to be on a rotten day. 
Hopefully it will improve!


----------



## Montanamyst (Aug 22, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> THought maybe so. I have been here and done that... It's not a great place to be on a rotten day.
> Hopefully it will improve!




Thanks.  I should probably log off until tomorrow, and hopefully things will look up for my friend.


----------



## orljustin (Aug 23, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > When you buy a car, you can modify it as you see fit.  When you buy a painting, you can put it in whatever frame you like.  If a buyer wants to crop an image to highlight their kids to show their friends, no, I have no issue with that.  I look at photos as the raw material the client needs to produce the message they desire.
> ...



You seem to be confusing the client's needs with your need for validation.  The message can be "Merry Christmas from the Hendersons" on a Christmas card or "Big Sale this weekend on soccer clothing" on a brochure, etc.  If the client needs to modify the material to fit their needs, I see no issue.  Of course, I like getting paid, so you can feel free to pass it up if you like because your masterpiece should never, ever, ever be cropped.

Congrats, you can keep the torch.


----------



## tirediron (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> You seem to be confusing the client's needs with your need for validation. The message can be "Merry Christmas from the Hendersons" on a Christmas card or "Big Sale this weekend on soccer clothing" on a brochure, etc. If the client needs to modify the material to fit their needs, I see no issue. Of course, I like getting paid, so you can feel free to pass it up if you like because your masterpiece should never, ever, ever be cropped.
> 
> Congrats, you can keep the torch.


 Wow... So, let`s say I pay you to take a picture of me ostensibly as a family portrait that I then turn around and sell to a major clothing company for tens of thousands of dollars for a billboard campaign, or I buy a picture you`ve taken and modify it with some text and use it as the `Home`image on an anti-semetic website, you`d be fine with that? You're a very generous and understanding person!


----------



## 12sndsgood (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...



clients come to you because they like your work. most clients come from word of mouth or seeing your photos. imagine how much work you'd generate from someone taking your photos and doing a hack job, cutting bodies out of the shot but leaving there arms. changing the colors and just doing an absolutly horrendous job. and now its on the internet for everyone to look at with your name plastered on it.


----------



## MLeeK (Aug 23, 2012)

Montanamyst said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > THought maybe so. I have been here and done that... It's not a great place to be on a rotten day.
> ...


  I just stopped in to say I hope it's a better day and that things are looking up!


----------



## Heitz (Aug 23, 2012)

Here's my two cents, for what its worth.  
1) If I paid someone $5.00 to take my picture, I wouldn't want that photographer telling me I couldn't alter that picture.  Its my picture...of me...i paid for it.  I think it might be somewhat pointless to tell clients they're not 'allowed' to do anything to it.  they're going to do it anyway.  BUT
2) as soon as the client alters that picture -- in any way -- its no longer representative of YOUR work.  So they should no longer attach your name to it. 

If someone wants to mangle one of my pictures and post it of facebook, go right ahead...just don't tell people it was my work!


----------



## Tee (Aug 23, 2012)

*facepalm*


----------



## orljustin (Aug 23, 2012)

tirediron said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > You seem to be confusing the client's needs with your need for validation. The message can be "Merry Christmas from the Hendersons" on a Christmas card or "Big Sale this weekend on soccer clothing" on a brochure, etc. If the client needs to modify the material to fit their needs, I see no issue. Of course, I like getting paid, so you can feel free to pass it up if you like because your masterpiece should never, ever, ever be cropped.
> ...



Well, a, since you don't hold the copyright, you can't license it.  And b, if you want to put a picture of yourself on an anti-semetic website, feel free.  I'm not sure how that would affect me.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:
			
		

> Well, a, since you don't hold the copyright, you can't license it.  And b, if you want to put a picture of yourself on an anti-semetic website, feel free.  I'm not sure how that would affect me.



Just on the off chance that there are any other crazy people like you waiting to sign a contract with me, I specifically cover this in my consult and in my contract. If my clients want to change something small, I'll probably do it for free. If they want to make drastic changes or redo an image for another purpose, I'll be happy to work something up for them, on my standard hourly rate (min 2hrs). Pretty simple.

And yes, Captain Sarcasm, every image I deliver IS a carefully crafted work of art. I'd hope yours are too.


----------



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> .
> 
> Congrats, you can keep the torch.




Oh no please... I insist. You'll need it to light your way out from the rock you live under.


----------



## tirediron (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...


  That's the whole point - I would be doing something I'm not allowed to do, and if you read my post more carefully the second example refers to some picture you've taken, not one of me.


----------



## jake337 (Aug 23, 2012)

tirediron said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...




I don't own a business, nor do I sell photos and I still would not want someone editing my work.  It's my vision, not theirs.  

Unless it is to teach me some sort of editing process on a forum like this.


----------



## MTVision (Aug 23, 2012)

orljustin said:
			
		

> For the love of... Let the people do what they want with what they paid for and don't worry about it.  If they liked your work, and someone asks, they'll point them to your site.



So in your eyes - its ok to do whatever they want with your work since they paid for it. But it's not ok for a photographer to use their own work (photos of customers) in their portfolio - thus for advertising?


----------

