# I SO SO SO want this!  CC?  I've been studying and practicing



## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

I've read about two books, watched a dozen tutorials, and taken about 1,000 photos in the past week. I'm really trying to nail my focus and work on my exposure. I purchased a speedlight and used it with the following photos. I know these are far from perfect, but in terms of focus, do you guys see any improvement? I actually adjusted my settings within my camera to sharpen my photos and I think the reason many of my photos were so noisy was because my default ISO was too high. Anyway, here is my latest.....(a few with a creative flare in terms of coloring)

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5.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

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4.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

I also know my composition wasn't too great, but I was really working on focus.  Thanks everyone!


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## MLeeK (Dec 8, 2011)

That is a LOT to review. 
You cannot learn exposure basics while throwing flash in the mix. You have to do one step at a time. Which you seem to be refusing to do no matter how many times we tell you. SLOW DOWN. TAKE THE STEPS IN ORDER. It WILL happen but not this way.


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## photo guy (Dec 8, 2011)

The first set has a little bit too much light on the face.  The second set is a little better.


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## tirediron (Dec 8, 2011)

Overall, not bad on the focus, though it seems more on the collar of her shirt than her eyes, which in a couple of cases seem slightly soft.  Face is about a stop, stop-and-a-third too hot.  Definite improvement.


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## mjhoward (Dec 8, 2011)

They seem in focus to me, however the lighting in some is still somewhat harsh.  If you havn't already, try picking up a shoot through umbrella or other light modifiers to soften the light and make the light source larger.  Also, your white balance in post 2 photo 2 seems to be different than the others.  When you're using a flash/speedlight, you can set the WB manually and get consistent WB rather than using auto.  For most speedlights, you can set the WB to around 5000k, if you'd like a slightly warmer feel you can lower that temperature a bit.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks....no, MLEEK....not refusing I just can't make it outside as freaqently because of the weather around here, having a little one, and I actually have an elderly sick family member I'm attending to so leaving to go exploring is a bit tough right now.  My husband was sweet to get me a speedlight for my birthday since most of my hobby time has been moved to indoors.  

Yeah, some of my white balance was adjusted in pp.  I explored some desaturation.  My house doesn't have a lot of natural light so I have to usually use some sort of flash.  It was either my pop up or my speedlight.  Obviousely I used the speedlight.  Exposure will come later, but right now I needed enough light just to work on focus.  You know?


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 8, 2011)

What type of speedlight did you buy?  Does it have the ability to swivel?

All of these shots would have been infinitely better had the flash been bounced instead of shot straight on.

Also, does your speedlight have a built in focus assist(the red grid?).  That will help immensely on focus in typical indoor conditions.

Also, why are you at 1/60th of a second?  Really, a few of these are still quite soft, and they probably shouldn't be at f/5.  Try bumping your shutter speed to 1/200th of a second, ISO 200, aperture around f/4, and bounce your flash off a wall/ceiling.  Flash compensation should also be dialed down to about -1.3 or so.

Also, make sure you are in AF-S so that the focus assist on your flash will help out.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

lol..MLEEK, I apologize that it is a lot to review.  I haven't been on here in quite a while and have taken so many pics.  I don't expect a cc to each, just was giving a sampling of some of my recent attempts.  Thank you for taking the time to review them.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 8, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> I've read about two books, watched a dozen tutorials, and taken about 1,000 photos in the past week. I'm really trying to nail my focus and work on my exposure. I purchased a speedlight and used it with the following photos. I know these are far from perfect, but in terms of focus, do you guys see any improvement? I actually adjusted my settings within my camera to sharpen my photos and I think the reason many of my photos were so noisy was because my default ISO was too high. Anyway, here is my latest.....(a few with a creative flare in terms of coloring)
> 
> 5.



I understand what you mean about trying to speed up your process. I have been eating, sleeping, breathing photography for a month straight now. I've been drawing for 10 years, so being a beginner at something is absolutely driving me insane.

I love her eyes in the second one of the first set, but her arms sticking straight out is kinda akward for me. #5, her expression and pose is great IMP, but it's a shame you didn't get her arms completely in frame.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

My husband surprised me with a nikon d700 speedlight.  It swivels and can be positioned upright.  I wasn't sure whether or not this would be a good idea because our ceilings are not white. In all honest I have no idea how to really explore my settings with my speedlight yet; I'm sure this is hugely offensive to the pros on here; lol.  I pretty much was so grateful to my husband and quickly replaced my pop up flash with it.  The one where my shutter was 1/60...I actually tried Aperture priority and this is the shutter speed it recommended.  I usually don't do this.  Also...BLACKROSE, I know what you mean!  lol.  I want to soak up as much as possible and sometimes being so determined actually is detrimental.  However, better to be over enthusiastic!


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks BTW!  Yeah, I need to work on compositon but I had been struggling with getting the focus on the eyes that this was my major concern.  I even visited two studios today to explore this issue.  lol.  With two kids in tow, one of which was strapped to me, I screamed MAJOR UNCOOL MOM attempting photography.  Surprisingly, they were so sweet and helpful!


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## MTVision (Dec 8, 2011)

Sb700 flash??


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 8, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> My husband surprised me with a nikon d700 speedlight.  It swivels and can be positioned upright.  I wasn't sure whether or not this would be a good idea because our ceilings are not white. In all honest I have no idea how to really explore my settings with my speedlight yet; I'm sure this is hugely offensive to the pros on here; lol.  I pretty much was so grateful to my husband and quickly replaced my pop up flash with it.  The one where my shutter was 1/60...I actually tried Aperture priority and this is the shutter speed it recommended.  I usually don't do this.  Also...BLACKROSE, I know what you mean!  lol.  I want to soak up as much as possible and sometimes being so determined actually is detrimental.  However, better to be over enthusiastic!



FWIW, here is my fail proof setup.  It's my starting point and will generally get good results.  A little tweaking based on the conditions and I get the results I want.

Flash pointed behind me to the left.  Exposure compensation set at -1.3.  Aperture around f/4.  Shutter speed around 1/200th.  For me, I usually push ISO to around 800 or much higher, but with your camera body, I would stick to ISO 400 or so.  Focus to AF-S(single, this will enable your SB-700's focus assist lamp).   Focus set to the center point.

Those settings are pretty much fail safe.  They will work for 90% of indoor shooting.  If you can't get sharp, reasonably well lit shots with those settings, either your camera is malfunctioning or you are doing something horribly wrong.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 8, 2011)

THANKS!  Yes, sorry SB700.


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## pgriz (Dec 8, 2011)

Nothing wrong with wanting the learning curve to speed up.  BUT.  Any skill takes time to assimilate.  You may get your head wrapped around the subject, and that's good, but until you get it to the point where you've internalized the process (ie, not thinking), you are still going to be "grinding gears".  And the best way I know to get up the learning curve is to do lots and lots of practice (did I mention Lots of Practice?).  MLeek's point is that if you jump around too much and don't get each element down more or less in turn, you'll delay the moment where things start to flow.  What did mother say?  take small bites, chew slowly and thoroughly, swallow, digest, and then continue.  You've got a beautiful daughter, and obviously a supportive spouse.  Good environment to make things happen. 

Your focus seems to be pretty good.  Since you got a flash now, try Kerbouchard's suggestions.  If that doesn't work, remember that one of the key skills for any photographer is learning to use light.  Small lights close to your subject (as in direct flash) give harsh highlights and shadows.  Large surface lights (as in bouncing the flash onto a white surface) give much more pleasing gradual shadows.  Try it both ways and see the difference.


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## DiskoJoe (Dec 9, 2011)

Patience is a virtue. Hurry the F*#k up is not.


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## bazooka (Dec 9, 2011)

Do you have a good understanding of the aperture, shutter speed, and ISO?  If not, I agree with MLeek, put the flash aside for now and work with constant lighting.  Do you have a window you could put her in front of?  Windows that do not have the sun shining directly into make absolutely beautiful, studio-quality light.  Just make sure you set your white balance to shade.


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## MLeeK (Dec 9, 2011)

I am sorry, but you are NOT going to get this by using that flash. You are just making it harder and harder. The flash is great for snapshots for now, but you HAVE to learn how to manage ISO, shutter and aperture WITHOUT flash first. You are f*cking yourself over doing this. 
Put your nifty fifty on, turn on every light in the house and bring them all into the room you are working in, pump up the ISO while you LEARN. those images aren't supposed to be the cherished ones of a lifetime. They are supposed to be LEARNING images. You have to learn one step before the other. That's how it works.


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## tirediron (Dec 9, 2011)

*What she said!!* ^^^


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 9, 2011)

MLeeK said:


> harder and harder


 


tirediron said:


> *What she said!!* ^^^



Yup.. thats what she said.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 9, 2011)

MLeeK said:


> I am sorry, but you are NOT going to get this by using that flash. You are just making it harder and harder. The flash is great for snapshots for now, but you HAVE to learn how to manage ISO, shutter and aperture WITHOUT flash first. You are f*cking yourself over doing this.
> Put your nifty fifty on, turn on every light in the house and bring them all into the room you are working in, pump up the ISO while you LEARN. those images aren't supposed to be the cherished ones of a lifetime. They are supposed to be LEARNING images. You have to learn one step before the other. That's how it works.



I could not possibly disagree more. 

I call shooting a moving kid indoors with a beginner DSLR, no flash, and a fast prime to be an excercize in futility. The only thing to learn from that experience is that there is a very good reason flashes were invented.

To the OP, check out the planet neil blog. Perhaps the best resource on bounce flash around. http://neilvn.com/tangents/ His home page also happens to have a very fitting article about this exact subject. For those that don't want to click on a link, here is an excerpt...





> However, sometimes the quality and the quantity of available light is just not there. But there should not be an excuse for bad lighting. As a professional photographer, we need to have the ability to see, shape and create the light as needed. When the quality of available natural light is poor, there is no excuse for not bringing out and using our flashes.



And yes, I realize the OP is not a professional, but it is my understanding that she is attempting to achieve professional level results...


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## Derrel (Dec 9, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting the learning curve to speed up.  BUT.  Any skill takes time to assimilate.  You may get your head wrapped around the subject, and that's good, but until you get it to the point where you've internalized the process (ie, not thinking), you are still going to be "grinding gears".  And the best way I know to get up the learning curve is to do lots and lots of practice (did I mention Lots of Practice?).  MLeek's point is that if you jump around too much and don't get each element down more or less in turn, you'll delay the moment where things start to flow.  What did mother say?  take small bites, chew slowly and thoroughly, swallow, digest, and then continue.  You've got a beautiful daughter, and obviously a supportive spouse.  Good environment to make things happen.
> 
> Your focus seems to be pretty good.  Since you got a flash now, try Kerbouchard's suggestions.  If that doesn't work, remember that one of the key skills for any photographer is learning to use light.  Small lights close to your subject (as in direct flash) give harsh highlights and shadows.  Large surface lights (as in bouncing the flash onto a white surface) give much more pleasing gradual shadows.  Try it both ways and see the difference.



pgriz has some excellent points,as he often does. I was thinking about your posts yesterday, trying to figure out what to reply...I let it go...I wanted to figure out a way to tell you, delicately, that I think you need to sloooow down...you took a thousand pictures??? You might as well have taken just 50 pictures, and looked at them more. It's not shooting volume you need, but TIME. Time to shoot, evaluate, analyze, and reflect. I honestly think many people in your position could benefit from a slower learning process that has LESS shooting, and more studying and reading on photographic theory and practices. Not sure exactly where to get that except through books, videos, and tutoring from more-experienced photogs. Your posts seem to follow a line of thinking that if you practice something really intensely, over a short time frame, that it will improve your skill level...but my experience is that photography is not like that...improvement comes with time, not through sheer shooting volume...if you keep making the same fundamental errors 1,000 times in one weekend, there's no improvement--just the same exact mistake made over and over. I can see from your posts that you are working very hard, but it seems as if you do not have a good teacher or more-experienced shooter to show you the "secret methods"...


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## Vtec44 (Dec 9, 2011)

Like others have said it, you're doing this the wrong way.

IMHO, focus is still very soft.  On #3 and #4, it looks like you tried to artificially blur out the background.  There's a sharp selection line on the right side of her, specifically around her hair.

It's possible that you're trying to get too close, beyond the minimum distance for the lens to be able to focus.  Are you watching your focus indicator?  It should be on and stay on before you take a shot.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 9, 2011)

All these threads sound alike.


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## shootermcgavin (Dec 9, 2011)

Bounce the light, you're fine!  Try not to have harsh shadows, you want just enough shadow to show that it is 3 dimensional.  It seems like a lot of your pictures are staged, I would bring the camera with you everywhere and take tons of photos, don't worry about settings or sharpness trial and error will fix those things.  I think it's better to slowly learn and grasp the whole picture, then  you will be better at predicting lighting situations.  I've probably got 30,000 photos in the last year, the majority are snap shots but it helped me understand lighting situations in different places.  I'm still learning the flash as it is far more annoying than just taking a picture and I don't feel comfortable setting off flash bursts everywhere I go.  Keep having fun with it!


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## gsgary (Dec 9, 2011)

To me they all still look soft but i think it is down to shutter speed 1/60 at 50mm is too slow because when there is ambient in the shot flash will not freeze movement


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## vtf (Dec 9, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> All these threads sound alike.



I believe you are ready for off camera flash with a new lens, not!  You really need to take a few steps back.


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## MTVision (Dec 9, 2011)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> I am sorry, but you are NOT going to get this by using that flash. You are just making it harder and harder. The flash is great for snapshots for now, but you HAVE to learn how to manage ISO, shutter and aperture WITHOUT flash first. You are f*cking yourself over doing this.
> Put your nifty fifty on, turn on every light in the house and bring them all into the room you are working in, pump up the ISO while you LEARN. those images aren't supposed to be the cherished ones of a lifetime. They are supposed to be LEARNING images. You have to learn one step before the other. That's how it works.



I agree 100%. I am always taking picture of my daughter indoors with no flash. I have a flash but I don't use it with her yet. I raise my ISO way above 800 if I have to. I live in this tiny ass condo and I have to windows in my downstairs and 1 in each bedroom - my place is DARK. 

In the daytime I open the curtain and I can keep my ISO around 400 and still have a fast enough shutter speed. At night I've taken pictures at ISO 3200 and 6400. I'm still learning so I don't care if a lot of photos end up in the trash.  

If its a birthday Or something important then I'll use the flash if I have to.


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## Tee (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT:  the one constant I'm seeing is your lack of appropriate shutter speed.  On a lot of images you post, your shutter speed is way too slow.  This is greatly affecting the image quality of your photos.  Quite honestly, after all this analyzing, I really think your focus issues are coming down to you not paying attention to your shutter speed, trying to shoot every picture at f/1.8 and tossing every piece of advice given to you out the proverbial window.  I mean, comparitively speaking, the members on here are being very helpful to you.  I wish you could answer why you refuse to listen?  Learning literally starts photographing a box of tissues, sock puppets and candles.  Yet, you're convinced shooting squirming kids is the best way to start.  I want to root for you.  I do.  But your inability to listen and take advice is wearing thin.  Why are you in such a hurry?  Can you at least answer that one question?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 10, 2011)

You put that better than I ever could. LOL


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## LightSpeed (Dec 10, 2011)

Tee said:


> AMOMENT:  the one constant I'm seeing is your lack of appropriate shutter speed.  On a lot of images you post, your shutter speed is way too slow.  This is greatly affecting the image quality of your photos.  Quite honestly, after all this analyzing, I really think your focus issues are coming down to you not paying attention to your shutter speed, trying to shoot every picture at f/1.8 and tossing every piece of advice given to you out the proverbial window.  I mean, comparitively speaking, the members on here are being very helpful to you.  I wish you could answer why you refuse to listen?  Learning literally starts photographing a box of tissues, sock puppets and candles.  Yet, you're convinced shooting squirming kids is the best way to start.  I want to root for you.  I do.  But your inability to listen and take advice is wearing thin.  Why are you in such a hurry?  Can you at least answer that one question?



LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHA
Oh man..................PERFECT.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

This thread is funny.  Very little advice was actually given in this thread.  It was pretty much all, 'slow down, you're not worthy'.  Give me a flippin' break.

Since this thread was about focus, and not lighting, just having the flash mounted and turned on should improve her focus considerably because of the focus assist.  

From there, all she has to do is put her camera in manual, use a shutter speed around 1/200th, ISO 400 or so, Aperture around 3.5, negative exposure compensation set on the flash and point the flash behind her and to the left.

This isn't that freaking complicated.  Then she should get in the mindset of looking for appropriate sources to bounce off, where she wants the light coming from, how to mix in ambient, etc, etc.  I also posted the link to the planet neil blog which is, IMO, the best resource on the net for bouncing flash.

Just because it will take some time to refine her technique, doesn't mean she can't start getting better results today.


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## ababysean (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> I've read about two books, watched a dozen tutorials, and taken about 1,000 photos in the past week. I'm really trying to nail my focus and work on my exposure. I purchased a speedlight and used it with the following photos. I know these are far from perfect, but in terms of focus, do you guys see any improvement? I actually adjusted my settings within my camera to sharpen my photos and I think the reason many of my photos were so noisy was because my default ISO was too high. Anyway, here is my latest.....(a few with a creative flare in terms of coloring)
> 
> 1.
> 
> ...




They all look very very flashy... what sets these apart from just a normal point and shoot camera using auto?  

Did you add fake blur to them?

try this....

Set your camera to 1/40, iso 400, and F4

Tell your little sweet girl to dance, jump, play some music get her into it, and then put your flash, point it about 75 degrees behind you, you can use TTL.  This will have it bounce off the wall behind you and fall nice onto her.


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## ababysean (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm on the fence about the shutter speed, the flash should be the main exposure yes?  so it should "freeze" the motion....  I am still a bit confused on this myself, so I tested it one day a few months ago.

These were shot with a bounced flash at 1/40 of a second....  iso 400 and F4


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## ababysean (Dec 10, 2011)

and I also think you need to back up some and give her some space.


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## TamiAz (Dec 10, 2011)

ababysean said:


> I'm on the fence about the shutter speed, the flash should be the main exposure yes?  so it should "freeze" the motion....  I am still a bit confused on this myself, so I tested it one day a few months ago.
> 
> These were shot with a bounced flash at 1/40 of a second....  iso 400 and F4



Cute pics! I bet your daughter loved that. The look on her face says...."Weeeeeeee, mommy is letting me jump on the bed"....LOL!!


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

Your focus is good enough that you can start working on other things.  Like proper exposure.  Then when you get that, work on controlling depth of field.  Then when you get that, work on lighting.

Also remember that the whole point of a speedlight is so that your flash isn't blowing your subject's head off.  All you've done with adding the SB700 is made your on camera flash even brighter, which in many ways just exacerbates the problem.


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## ababysean (Dec 10, 2011)

what lens are you using?

Does it autofocus on your camera body? 

I see you have the D3100 and I'm assuming the 50mm?  I know they did start making a 50mm that autofocus on that body but it is pretty pricy.  Do you have a 50 or the 35?


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Tee said:


> AMOMENT:  the one constant I'm seeing is your lack of appropriate shutter speed.  On a lot of images you post, your shutter speed is way too slow.  This is greatly affecting the image quality of your photos.  Quite honestly, after all this analyzing,* I really think your focus issues are coming down to you not paying attention to your shutter speed*, trying to shoot every picture at f/1.8 and tossing every piece of advice given to you out the proverbial window.  I mean, comparitively speaking, the members on here are being very helpful to you.  I wish you could answer why you refuse to listen?  Learning literally starts photographing a box of tissues, sock puppets and candles.  Yet, you're convinced shooting squirming kids is the best way to start.  I want to root for you.  I do.  But your inability to listen and take advice is wearing thin.  Why are you in such a hurry?  Can you at least answer that one question?



Focus has nothing to do with shutter speed.  Absolutely zero.  Nada.  Maybe the OP *should* be ignoring the advice of about 90% of the shooters on here...including the ones that liked your post.

Again, focus has nothing to do with shutter speed.  That you think it does makes you unqualified to offer an opinion.

Now, if you had said, "Your lack of apparent sharpness may be due to shutter speed and not focus", I might have agreed.  But that isn't what you said.

This entire thread is a joke.  Again, on TPF, mob mentality rules and a few 'established' members direct the way a thread goes, and that direction is usually downhill.


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## Dominantly (Dec 10, 2011)

MTVision said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I couldn't disagree more, but then again maybe you have a D3X and this works for you.

But really, capturing light is one of those things photographers generally put a lot of emphasis on. The idea of not caring about learning how to use your flash (which is absurdly easy to get the basics of) is silly. Most people who eventually pick up their first off camera flash and take a few shots, gasp with surprise at what their photos gain.


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## Dominantly (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > AMOMENT:  the one constant I'm seeing is your lack of appropriate shutter speed.  On a lot of images you post, your shutter speed is way too slow.  This is greatly affecting the image quality of your photos.  Quite honestly, after all this analyzing,* I really think your focus issues are coming down to you not paying attention to your shutter speed*, trying to shoot every picture at f/1.8 and tossing every piece of advice given to you out the proverbial window.  I mean, comparitively speaking, the members on here are being very helpful to you.  I wish you could answer why you refuse to listen?  Learning literally starts photographing a box of tissues, sock puppets and candles.  Yet, you're convinced shooting squirming kids is the best way to start.  I want to root for you.  I do.  But your inability to listen and take advice is wearing thin.  Why are you in such a hurry?  Can you at least answer that one question?
> ...



Maybe the wrong word was used there, but I would have read it as the poster was saying that the image was soft due to an inappropriate choice of shutter speed for the situation.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

Dominantly said:
			
		

> I couldn't disagree more, but then again maybe you have a D3X and this works for you.
> 
> But really, capturing light is one of those things photographers generally put a lot of emphasis on. The idea of not caring about learning how to use your flash (which is absurdly easy to get the basics of) is silly. Most people who eventually pick up their first off camera flash and take a few shots, gasp with surprise at what their photos gain.



Did I ever say that I didn't care about learning flash? Its absurdly silly to assume. I know how to use my flash, I know how to focus and I know how to expose my pictures thank you.  The OP's issues have been focus, metering, composition and exposure. Focus issues not necessarily due to lack of light since she was having issues in the daytime /outside  and she had been shooting wide open. So yeah flash isn't going to help her if she is still shooting wide open and way to close. I don't know but I think that it's better to learn the basics first. People can get great pictures with and without a flash. Flash does make a world of difference but it's nice if you actually know what your doing first. I wasn't aware that getting an external flash suddenly made your pictures perfectly exposed, focused and composed - maybe I should of just popped a flash on and then gone pro


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## Dominantly (Dec 10, 2011)

"Blah Blah Blah, I take photos of my daughter in a dark with with an ISO of 6400, because I'm learning what noisy photos look like, and my trash bin is limitless. But when I have to actually try and get a decent photo in, like at a birthday party, I guess I'll throw that pesky flash on".

That's what I read. MWAC.


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## ababysean (Dec 10, 2011)

what is wrong with noisy photos? I love me some noise!  shurg... sometimes it just works.  I'd rather have noisy photos right in camera then underexpose them and try to bring them back in PS and get crappy noise.

but whatever works.  The OP flash use does NOT work.  Stay on topic and lets try to help her!  It is how we learn, trial and error.  I am sure everyone has been there!  Overuse wrong use of flash is a common mistake....


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

so I teach LSAT classes, which is obviously extremely different from photography, but I think one principle (at least one) applies very clearly here.  

Practice in and of itself does very little.  You have to be _practicing something.  _You have to take some technique that you're trying to learn and practice that.  I can't tell that you're doing that.  From your posts, it just looks like you are kind of taking a lot of pictures and calling it practice.  Now, don't feel bad, a lot of people do that, with everything in life.  But before you practice, you need to have a very clear view of _what you want to do_.  Without a clear vision of what you want to do, all you are doing is practicing bad habits.  

Every time you are _practicing_, remember, you should be _practicing some specific technique_.  You should have something specific in mind that you're after.  You should spend at least as much time personally reviewing your results, trying to figure out what you liked and disliked about each of them as you do taking shots and then posting here, and then listening to the cacophony of varying responses.  You need to first review all of your images and try to figure out, as best you can, _yourself_ what was good and bad about them.  Sure, outside eyes can help you find things you missed.  But C&C should be secondary to your own personal reflections on what you got right and wrong.  

When you are _practicing_ you should review every image, reflect on what your intent was, reflect on how well you pulled off that intent, what you could have done better to pull off that intent, see what you can do to fix it and try again.  Here it looks like you just shot lots of images, posted them here, and awaited comments.  

While photography is about capturing very small moments, it's really, from a photographer's perspective about thousands more moments leading up, the building of the image, be it instantaneous and candid or in a studio.  The building of the image.  Even if you're just shooting your kids, if you want photographs instead of snapshots, you need to think about them a lot more in advance.  Especially at first.  As you gain experience, then you will be able to grab your camera and take a well considered photograph quickly, because you will have built all the things you practiced into habits.  But right now you'll need to spend a fair amount of time thinking through the steps.  I know that sounds like a lot of time to just shoot some shots of your adorable little kids, but that's why it's photography and not just snapshooting.  

So, I guess my main point here, is your biggest issue is that your photographs need to be much more considered.  You need to think more closely about what you want out of that photograph, and then what technical demands are required to get it.  

Im by no means a great photographer, but before I take a shot, my thought process is something like this:

1) What am I shooting, where do I want to frame it?  Where should I move to in order to get to the best point of view for this shot?  When will the moment I want to happen actually happen?
2) Would it be practical to shoot this with a tripod?  Monopod?  Gripster?  Beanbag?
3) What is the lighting situation?  What ISO should I be at?  Do I need flash?
4) What kind of depth of field do I want?  What f/stop should my camera be at?
5) With those two settings, is my shutter speed fast enough given my focal length and handheld/tripod?
6) Take the shot
7) Reevaluate steps 1-5 very closely try to figure out what would make it better
8) Take it again

And that's kind of the _bare minimum_ of what you think about for every shot.  A lot of times even more goes into it.  And yes, it's very hard, and very slow at this point.  I get a lot of it wrong.  But the key is when you're considering those things and more, very closely, for every shot, you're actually practicing, instead of just taking random shots.  Taking random shots isn't practicing, it's just putting shutter actuations on your camera.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

Dominantly said:
			
		

> "Blah Blah Blah, I take photos of my daughter in a dark with with an ISO of 6400, because I'm learning what noisy photos look like, and my trash bin is limitless. But when I have to actually try and get a decent photo in, like at a birthday party, I guess I'll throw that pesky flash on".
> 
> That's what I read. MWAC.



Blah blah blah........if you actually read what I wrote I said I don't use a flash with my daughter.  Hmmmmm....wonder what that means.... 

Oooooohhhhh......mom with a camera - I might cry a little since you hurt my feelings so damn much. What a joke!! You must be a DWAC.


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## zcar21 (Dec 10, 2011)

all pictures are overexposed, if you're not sure about the focus, just keep changing the aperture, or distance until you're satisfied.


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

zcar21 said:


> if you're not sure about the focus, just keep changing the aperture, or distance until you're satisfied.



changing the aperture doesn't change the focus.  It just changes the 'quickness' with which things go into and out of focus.  You should never change the aperture because you missed your focal point.  You change it if you want more of the picture in focus.  But not because you were focused in the wrong place.


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## KmH (Dec 10, 2011)

The light needs to come from off the camera so shadows are created that give the facial mask a sense of depth and character. www.strobist.com

The light for a child portrait needs to be modified so it is softer and has more diffuse shadow edges. www.planetneil.com

In the shots posted by the OP, the kid is nuked by the light. 

Posting for C&C every few days, when progress is best evaluated in a time frame of weeks or months, is counter-productive. 

Light It, Shoot It, Retouch It: Learn Step by Step How to Go from Empty Studio to Finished Image


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## rambler (Dec 10, 2011)

Understanding Flash Photography by Bryan Peterson - Book - eBook - Random House

Scott Kelby Digital Photography Book 2 has a lot on info and hints on taking flash for portraits.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

fjrabon said:
			
		

> changing the aperture doesn't change the focus.  It just changes the 'quickness' with which things go into and out of focus.  You should never change the aperture because you missed your focal point.  You change it if you want more of the picture in focus.  But not because you were focused in the wrong place.



You are right but if you are missing focus because of a shallow DOF then distance does make a difference. Take a 50mm lens at f/3.5. 3 feet away your depth of field will be around 1.5" but at 10 feet away your depth of field will be around 1.6 feet and at 20 feet away DOF will be around 6 1/2 feet. If you are missing focus at f/5.6 - either you aren't focusing right or you are way too close


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## Tee (Dec 10, 2011)

Dominantly said:


> Maybe the wrong word was used there, but I would have read it as the poster was saying that the image was soft due to an inappropriate choice of shutter speed for the situation.



Yes.  Poor choice of phraseology on my part.  I've already given myself 10 lashings on my part.  



Kerbouchard said:


> Focus has nothing to do with shutter speed.  Absolutely zero.  Nada.  Maybe the OP *should* be ignoring the advice of about 90% of the shooters on here...including the ones that liked your post.
> 
> Again, focus has nothing to do with shutter speed.  That you think it does makes you unqualified to offer an opinion.
> 
> ...



Sorry- I used poor phrasing.  I shall kiss your ring.  The mob mentality is selective.  You've definitely piled on but that's ok when you do it.  Right?


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

MTVision said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes, of course.  my point was that a lot of times, if you're missing your focal point, changing the aperture is just masking it, instead of fixing it.  Now, of course, at extreme apertures and extreme close ups, your DOF can get so small that it's nearly impossible to have anything in focus.  But the way the post I was responding to was worded could make it seem to someone who doesn't understand aperture like aperture changes focus itself.  

I was just trying to clear up that aperture doesn't fix missing your focus, it masks it.  Also, my second point is that DOF should not be a decision the photographer makes to 'fix focus'.  DOF should be set because that's the DOF you want for the shot.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

fjrabon said:
			
		

> yes, of course.  my point was that a lot of times, if you're missing your focal point, changing the aperture is just masking it, instead of fixing it.  Now, of course, at extreme apertures and extreme close ups, your DOF can get so small that it's nearly impossible to have anything in focus.  But the way the post I was responding to was worded could make it seem to someone who doesn't understand aperture like aperture changes focus itself.
> 
> I was just trying to clear up that aperture doesn't fix missing your focus, it masks it.  Also, my second point is that DOF should not be a decision the photographer makes to 'fix focus'.  DOF should be set because that's the DOF you want for the shot.



Oh I agree with you about not changing the aperture and everything else. I was just adding to to your post that changing the distance can help (so they were right about that) if missed focus is due to shallow DOF (which is what the OP has issues with).


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## Pau1 (Dec 10, 2011)

9 photos and they all look identical. What were you practicing? You're stuck indoors with NO sunlight??


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Tee said:


> Dominantly said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the wrong word was used there, but I would have read it as the poster was saying that the image was soft due to an inappropriate choice of shutter speed for the situation.
> ...



Leave my ring alone...

And no, piling on is never ok.  The only time I post things like I did are when people are harassing the OP, haven't read the entire thread, provide misinformation and have been liked by Bitter Jewler or O Hey Tyler.  Other than that, I pretty much let it go.  Also, I don't think I can be accused of 'piling on' when I am the first one to say something is wrong.  Perhaps another use of 'poor phrasing'?

As far as the mob mentality being selective, I believe I am one of the only ones going against the grain and giving advice to the OP about how to get better quickly instead of just telling her she is going too fast.  

My apologies if I hurt hurt your feelings.  Just go back and read from the start of this thread and imagine what the OP feels considering all the crap that was thrown her way.


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> As far as the mob mentality being selective, I believe I am one of the only ones going against the grain and giving advice to the OP about how to get better quickly instead of just telling her she is going too fast.



I don't think the OP's issue is that she is going too fast, it's that she isn't really doing anything with her practice time.  Which I don't think is something she realizes.  I think OP has fallen under the spell of "if I just take a LOT of pictures I'll get better, practice makes perfect!"  Which is very counter productive, IMHO.  I think OP started taking photography seriously about the same time I did.  I don't think it's absurd that she would be working in a speedlight at this juncture.  But the problem is, I think at least, that she's just piling things on, hoping they fix other issues, without actually ever really thinking very hard about fixing those issues.  

I agree with you that adding in a speedlight occasionally shouldn't be that big of a deal.  However, she needs to think about what she's doing with it a lot more.  It is pretty evident that she just stuck the sucker on there and fired er up and let er rip.  Which, I mean I guess we all did that at first.  But my point was that she should have looked at those photos and said 'wow, really cooked her face on that one, let me read my manual and figure out how to turn this sucker down.'


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:
			
		

> Leave my ring alone...
> 
> And no, piling on is never ok.  The only time I post things like I did are when people are harassing the OP, haven't read the entire thread, provide misinformation and have been liked by Bitter Jewler or O Hey Tyler.  Other than that, I pretty much let it go.  Also, I don't think I can be accused of 'piling on' when I am the first one to say something is wrong.  Perhaps another use of 'poor phrasing'?
> 
> ...



The whole thing with focus - it obviously isn't about lack of light since she's been using her pop-up pretty much the whole time indoors - which is really no different then what she did in these photos. That's what all the replies were about.  This is the 8th thread about focus and basically was given all the same advice. Going too fast in terms of trying to do everything at once.  A speedlight is great and will help but it's not going to solve all the issues.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the mob mentality being selective, I believe I am one of the only ones going against the grain and giving advice to the OP about how to get better quickly instead of just telling her she is going too fast.
> ...



I don't disagree with anything you said there.  

Just one thing to consider, the OP specifically said she didn't bounce the flash because of advice that she had read on a forum not to bounce off of non-white walls and ceilings.  That isn't good advice.  There are very few surfaces that can't be bounced off of to get proper results if shooting RAW.

In any case, no, taking a thousand photos in the same exact way and hoping to get better is ridiculous, but that's not what I gather from the OP.  I think she is reading a lot of forums, studying a lot, and just doesn't know what advice to discard and which to keep.

In this very thread we have advice regarding proper settings using flash to advice saying just crank up the ISO to 6400.

Personally, I think the OP is trying.  I think she is trying to learn everything she can.  I think she just needs a better BS filter so that she can have more confidence in ignoring some of the poor advice that she gets.


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## fjrabon (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> I don't disagree with anything you said there.
> 
> Just one thing to consider, the OP specifically said she didn't bounce the flash because of advice that she had read on a forum not to bounce off of non-white walls and ceilings.  That isn't good advice.  There are very few surfaces that can't be bounced off of to get proper results if shooting RAW.
> 
> ...



Mostly agree.  As much as I like this forum, I generally find as far as pure learning goes, you're better off going old fashioned and getting the basics from books.  Then when you're confident enough in the basics, you can venture a bit more into these waters.  You learn things a lot more clearly if you just put in a few thousand pages worth of reading of Kelby's books, with Freeman's books and then one of the add on guides to your camera, IMHO, than trying to wade through all the advice here.  

I also didn't mean to imply that I didn't think the OP was trying, I was trying to say that the OP doesn't really have a plan when it comes to taking photographs, which is the most fundamental issue she has of all, IMHO.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

MTVision said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, horrible advice and it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what we are talking about.  You say that it isn't a lack of light since she's been using her pop up flash...what could that possibly have to do with focusing?  Hopefully, you don't think the camera achieves focus during the split second that the pop up flash fires.  

On the other hand, a speedlight has a focus assist cross beam that it projects to give the AF module something to lock on to.  A pop up flash does not.

Focus issues are always one of three things.
1) Lack of contrast
2) Lack of light for the focusing module to see the contrast
3) Equipment malfunction

The first and second can be corrected by a speedlight.  At this point, I'm not ruling out #3.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

Well I have a built in af assist light for my pop-up. So why can't she focus outdoors with plenty of light? Because she doesn't have an af-assist light on a speedlight? 

Oh she can nail focus in her dark house on a non-moving object.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

MTVision said:


> Well I have a built in af assist light for my pop-up. So why can't she focus outdoors with plenty of light? Because she doesn't have an af-assist light on a speedlight?
> 
> Oh she can nail focus in her dark house on a non-moving object.


The built in AF-assist light on your camera is completly different than the AF assist on a speedlight.  One is an annoying bright light.  One is a red grid.  Not even in the same ballpark.

As far as why she can't focus outdoors with plenty of light, I would say it is either a lack of contrast, equipment error, using too shallow of a DOF, or using a setting like AF-A where the camera picks the focus.  Not many other options out there.


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## MTVision (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:
			
		

> The built in AF-assist light on your camera is completly different than the AF assist on a speedlight.  One is an annoying bright light.  One is a red grid.  Not even in the same ballpark.
> 
> As far as why she can't focus outdoors with plenty of light, I would say it is either a lack of contrast, equipment error, using too shallow of a DOF, or using a setting like AF-A where the camera picks the focus.  Not many other options out there.



I do know the difference since I do own speedlights. She uses af-s now, at least I think so. 

The options you listed are exactly what everyone else has been telling her. Shooting with an aperture like 2.8 or 3.5 is fine but if you are too close then it might be a little tricky to land focus. And if her focusing errors are due to DOF or even equipment error then a speedlight isn't going to help her. 

This isn't the only forum she is on and the advice from the other forum is almost exactly the same. 


[quote name='bthompson' timestamp='1323405703' post='5264877']
She is such a gorgeous girl! You know, I think almost anyone can have potential, honestly. I think the focus seems okay to me. The first and the last one seem a little iffy but with your aperture as high as it was, I would think it would all be relatively in focus. Unfortunately, the truth is that these just look like snapshots. They are very flashy and they don't really have real composition or connection to me. I certainly don't want to come across as cruel. If you have passion for photography then you should definitely keep practicing. Focus on one thing at a time and it will all eventually fall in place. Plus you have a gorgeous subject to practice on 
[/quote]

[quote name='tjdec91' timestamp='1323407135' post='5264895']
Do you want to shoot flash?  I would say - find a big window or go outdoors and work with her in natural light.  Understanding how to coordinate your iso - shutter speeds - and f stops, & focus first as well as finding the light without flash. Flash just adds a harsh snapshot look if not used properly - does that make sense?  Unless you want to shoot flash, then that is a whole different ballgame.  She is adorable!!!
[/quote]


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

WOW!  DOWN GUYS, DOWN!  Everyone gets so personally offended. I am not ignoring your advice.......IN FACT, YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE SHUTTER. I SHOT AT 1/100 AT THE VERY LEAST...BUT MOSTLY AT 1/200-- -1/400.  I posed a few shot WITHOUT my flash and in those circumstances I did slow my shutter to 1/60. I could have raised the ISO but personally, IMO, I couldn't stand the noise.  I may not be a professional photographer but if you give me advice on PHOTOS THAT ARE MINE, that I dislike, I am not going to take it.  You are all not gods gift to photography just because you are pros.  And in case you haven't noticed, you all give opposing advice.  It is quite possible that I have ignored one person's and taken another's.  The EGOCENTRISM AND NARCISISM ON HERE IS BEYOND!  I even just double checked my info on my photos!  So, instead of jumping down my throat about not listening, maybe you should re-evaluate your electronic sources for reading my info!

My goal for this shoot was focus.  I took these in the evening in my house.  I did not use the speedlight flash for all of these! My husband purchased a speedlight for me and I played around with it on a few shots.  I shot about 5 shoots last week all of which has about 200 photos in them.  I learned what I could about FOCUSING...and then posted 6 photos out of like 1,000 for cc on focus.  Grantid, if my lighting improved, that would have been great but my concentration was focus.  So you see, I AM TAKING YOUR ADVICE!  Perhaps if everyone wasn't so darn full of themeselves they would realize that I AM TRYING MY DAMN HARDEST TO APPLY EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING.  I am not out to get everyone on here with some vivious global ignoral plot.


If you guys get so heated on an internet forum with a person that you don't know, have no idea what I am like, what I am doing on a daily basis, and how HARD I AM TRYING TO APPLY ALLLLLLL OF YOUR ADVICE, well than perhaps you should go join TAMF!  AKA...The Anger Management forum!

I come in peace!  I have been told to shoot at faster speeds and I did except for when it was too dark and I did not want to raise my ISO.  Again, I have TWO OTHER friends who are pro photographers and by pro, I mean paid to do it and have been for over 5 years!  They both told me that raising your ISO is not necessarily a good thing and to try shooting and practicing at 1/60.  Photography is clearly an art which also means there is a lot up for debate.  What works for some people on here may not work for otehrs.  It is also a matter of taste.  Don't be personally offended if I take one person's advice over another person's.  I do have that right. 
I rarely shoot slower than 1/100....and barely ever slower than 1/200.  Also...JUST CHECKED AGAIN TO MAKE SURE, but I did not shoot even close to wide open because I know this decreases my DOF too much and makes getting a sharper image a little tougher for now. MOST; 90% of these shots were shot at 5.6.  This was the recommended aperture that you advised me to shoot at.  I didn't ignore your advice and if you need further confirmation, I will personally send you my data showing my settings!  I cannot explain why you are all getting the readings you are.  

If you have ever struggled with something than show some damn tolerance!  You guys act like vicious animals on here.  This is photography not war! Stop atttacking people out there that share the same passion as you; even if they struggle to apply your techniques.  You do not live in my home and you do not see me attempt to apply certain advice.  I do not feel that I need to report every time I take your advice.  I simply chose to post a few photos I liked for cc.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

KERBOUCHARD; thank you for being so humane!  

If anyone on here really knew how hard I worked at this and what it meant in my life for reasons far deeper than any photography could ever explain, you would be astonished.  SHAME ON YOU FOR talking and judging anyone the way you have done.  I shoot with purpose all the time.  The only person who could ever vouge for me would be my husband and my family.  They watch as every day I try a knew experiment, as I sit with my books and tutorials, and try things over and over again; applying your advice, but not necessarily reporting back to you with it.  

Furthermore, I am a teacher and my profession is psychology.  I teach plenty of people wanting to learn my field and I NEVER, no matter what, would speak to them the way you have spoken to me; as if they owed me something.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 10, 2011)

Granted.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

I AM WILLING TO SHARE MY KNOWLEDGE FREE OF PRIDE!  If they need to revisit it a million times it is fine with me.  This is very normal to do in the learning process.  My students don't have to proove anything to me, just to themselves.  You all need to ask yourselves if by being on here if you really want to be helpful or hurtful?  It seems as if many of you are looking to make yourselves feel better by putting down others.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

AS POSTED by TEE " the one constant I'm seeing is your lack of appropriate shutter speed. On a lot of images you post, your shutter speed is way too slow. This is greatly affecting the image quality of your photos. Quite honestly, after all this analyzing, I really think your focus issues are coming down to you not paying attention to your shutter speed, trying to shoot every picture at f/1.8 and tossing every piece of advice given to you out the proverbial window. I mean, comparitively speaking, the members on here are being very helpful to you. I wish you could answer why you refuse to listen? Learning literally starts photographing a box of tissues, sock puppets and candles. Yet, you're convinced shooting squirming kids is the best way to start. I want to root for you. I do. But your inability to listen and take advice is wearing thin. Why are you in such a hurry? Can you at least answer that one question



I did take the advice and shot at 5.6.  I normally never shoot lower than 1/200; again taking the advice.  However, a friend, a prof. photographer , told me to practice shooting at 1/60 instead of raising the ISO. I took his advice for this specific shoot.  I was happy with my focus and that is why I posted these for cc.  I actually did not post about 900 other practice photos that were all taken with purpose for practice because I was told AGAIN to not post too much for cc.  These were simply a few I thought I did well with.


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## Vtec44 (Dec 10, 2011)

Well, back to taking sharp and well focused pictures.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> KERBOUCHARD; thank you for being so humane!
> 
> If anyone on here really knew how hard I worked at this and what it meant in my life for reasons far deeper than any photography could ever explain, you would be astonished.  SHAME ON YOU FOR talking and judging anyone the way you have done.  I shoot with purpose all the time.  The only person who could ever vouge for me would be my husband and my family.  They watch as every day I try a knew experiment, as I sit with my books and tutorials, and try things over and over again; applying your advice, but not necessarily reporting back to you with it.
> 
> Furthermore, I am a teacher and my profession is psychology.  I teach plenty of people wanting to learn my field and I NEVER, no matter what, would speak to them the way you have spoken to me; as if they owed me something.



I'm not sure how to take that.  Hopefully your second and third paragraph weren't directed at me like your first one was...


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

kerbouchard; you hit the nail!!!!!!!!!!!  I can't thank you enough for not joining the "mob.!"  There is so many opposing theories and advice and if I were to simply apply it all they would all negate each other!  Just so everyone knows, last week I practiced on still life.  I worked on metering and focusing.  I am not trying to conquer lighting and exposure yet, just focusing.  Is it so criminal that I got a speedlight, was excited to test drive it, and strapped it on for a trial during a shoot?  This is clearly some sort of federal offence in photography world.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

omg...kerbouchard, none of the negative response were posted at you! You have been a savior during this thread; lol


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> WOW!  DOWN GUYS, DOWN!  Everyone gets so personally offended. I am not ignoring your advice.......IN FACT, YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE SHUTTER. I SHOT AT 1/100 AT THE VERY LEAST...BUT MOSTLY AT 1/200-- -1/400.  I posed a few shot WITHOUT my flash and in those circumstances I did slow my shutter to 1/60.



 FWIW, I went and checked each picture, just to be sure.  The first was 1/100th of a second.  Every other picture was 1/60th of a second.

Personally, I think you should be around 1/200th of a second.  The rest of your settings were fine.  The only thing you need to change for some of those shots to be really good is your exposure compensation on your flash and the direction your flash is pointing.

Also, take care to squeeze the shutter instead of pushing it.  It makes a difference.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

I am appalled at how horrible people have spoken to me and assumed such wrong things.  I am a teacher and professional too and I would NEVER talk to anyone like this; eve if I thought they weren't applying my advice correctly.  I can honestly say that I'm surprised given everyone on here is supposedly adults.


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## Derrel (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:
			
		

> Focus issues are always one of three things.
> 1) Lack of contrast
> 2) Lack of light for the focusing module to see the contrast
> 3) Equipment malfunction



You forgot the following causes of focusing problems:
4) User error in aiming
5) Lack of user understanding of the focusing settings

For example, the AF assist grid pattern (it is not always a 'grid'; depends on the camera or flash, but whatever, we know what you mean) you mention over and over: for many beginners, they do not get ANY benefit from the AF assist system because they have their focusing system set for Continuous AF, so the beam is never emitted. That is a "#5" error--lack of user understanding of the focusing settings.

It's possible that a person has his or her camera set up so that the AF assist is set to OFF. I actually laughed at #3 being "equipment malfunction"...perhaps that was you making a horrible word choice, Kerby... my experience is that USER ERROR, in one of any number of ways, is the leading cause of AF problems. "equipment error" as the #3 cause of AF problems? What were you trying to say? Is her AF system making errors? Is it out of whack? Speaking of B.S. filters...your post with the three causes of AF errors doesn't pass my B.S. smell test. At all.

I opened this post to reply, and then got roped into a Level of Lego Star Wars 3...when I posted, I saw AMOMENT had posted a bunch of replies...I keep thinking back to KmH's short post, with regard to his comment about repeatedly seeking C&C over a really short time frame, one that ought to be  a time frame measured IN MONTHS, not in weeks, is as he put it, "counterproductive". And that Kerby, is where I think you're wayyyyyy off base in chastzing the "mob"...the OP has made a fundamental mistake I have seen over 30+ years....expecting to take a bunch of photos, in a VERY short time frame, and to miraculously become "good". And, she wants it "SO SO SO" much to be like that. You gave her a quick recipe, but it might as well be in Greek, if you expect a newbie to be able to assimilate that information and put it into practice. 

Ya gotta be able to walk before you can run.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks! Yeah, the ones I posted I shot at 1/60 except for the first. I did this because, as I said, a friend of mine gave me an assignment; to practice shooting a little slower, keeping my ISO down, and working on stabalizing my hand. I took so many more photos last week and to be honest ,I even tried keeping my shutter above 1/200. I posted these because I was pleasantly surprised that I got some in decent focus at a shutter as slow as 1/60.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

What I have learned more than  ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM, is that photography is not a science, it is an art!  People have different theories and different methods for achieving the right exposure, sharpness, etc.


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## AMOMENT (Dec 10, 2011)

They even have different theories on the best ways to learn.  I have a photographer friend in Texas who is probably the most amazing photographer I have ever seen!  Her advice to me is the opposite of everyone on here.  She says, get your head out of the book and don't spend hours of time on all of the that "photo mumbo jumbo"  (lol exact words)  get out there and shoot, shoot all day, different times, different people."    That is how she learned and she is now extremely successful! People seek out her work from around the country.  If she didn't live in Texas, she could be of more help to me.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whatever.  We agree more times than not.  As far as your reasons 4 and 5, I would say they are the same thing, i.e. user error.  I chose not to mention them because they are easily correctible by any decent photographer with some knowledge of their equipment.


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## Dominantly (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> kerbouchard; you hit the nail!!!!!!!!!!!  I can't thank you enough for not joining the "mob.!"  There is so many opposing theories and advice and if I were to simply apply it all they would all negate each other!  Just so everyone knows, last week I practiced on still life.  I worked on metering and focusing.  I am not trying to conquer lighting and exposure yet, just focusing.  *Is it so criminal that I got a speedlight, was excited to test drive it, and strapped it on for a trial during a shoot?  This is clearly some sort of federal offence in photography world*.


Not even a little bit, and anyone who thinks so is "special".
I would say that you should avoid getting into the habit of firing the speedlight directly at your subject. Bouncing off the ceiling, walls, your husband.... all better than straight on. You can pick up a gray card (or cap) and set your WB, or you can adjust in post if your ceilings are casting an unflattering color.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just saw your edit...

Doesn't take a chef to follow a recipe.  Doesn't take a professional photographer to adjust a few settings, either.

A mom with a cookbook can make some great food just like a mom with a camera can take some great shots with proper settings.

Oh, and FWIW, my quick recipe works...and you know it.  No, it's not a Fillet Mignon from the top steak house in the country, but it sure does make a good Broccoli Rice and Cheese Casserole.


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## Derrel (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> They even have different theories on the best ways to learn.  I have a photographer friend in Texas who is probably the most amazing photographer I have ever seen!  Her advice to me is the opposite of everyone on here.  She says, get your head out of the book and don't spend hours of time on all of the that "photo mumbo jumbo"  (lol exact words)  get out there and shoot, shoot all day, different times, different people."    That is how she learned and she is now extremely successful! People seek out her work from around the country.  If she didn't live in Texas, she could be of more help to me.



zOMFG..advice from another photo-illiterate, this one from Texas, referring to "photo mumbo jumbo." Let me guess-she is a "natural light photographer". lolz... Her advice sounds EXACTLY like what somebody who has no training, is self-taught within the last five years, and frames every single shot as a horizonta, would givel!! As far as being sought-out by people...I have seen some of the absolutely most-horrid family photogs, MWACS universally, who have people coming to them from friend networks from across 2 and 3 and even 4 states...and their work is almost universally what I would call"Facebook Photographer" stuff...a red-velvet upholstered chair out in a field...old run-down barns and cattle corrals!!!....BRIGHT, neon colored clothes, saturation in post cranked to MAXIMUM, eyes "highlighted" and "improved" to give that glazed-over, 'I just saw Geeezus and I'm a toddler' look!!! in post, selective colored mums pinned in baby girls' hair, etc,etc. There was a woman located in Colorado who allegedly had people coming from as far as Washington, Oregon, and California...I went and looked at her pages...zOMG...awful,cheezy, appealing to 20-something moms....seems like she had family in Washington, Oregon, California...but she had "customers" from all across the west...lol...sure.

Natural Light Photographer. The most amazing photographer I have seen. "Photo mumbo jumbo".

Maybe your friend shoots in *P*rofessional mode all the time too!!  Ahhh, AMOMENT, you do seem like a dear, dear lady. I would suggest taking a class at the local community college or adult education center, or buying any one of a dozen photography books written by John Hedgecoe. I know it must be confusing to you. I want to see you get better. I do. ANd I can see improvement in your work, but as Keith (KmH) mentioned, you seem to be looking for improvement in a timeline of mere weeks, instead of months. I'm sorry, but you know, I would like to be in good enough shape to run a marathon by Valentine's Day 2012....but a more-realistic goal for "me", with my background and age and running experience, is more like 30 months from now--min-i-mum. If ever!!! If you do want to improve, as fjrabon (spelling) mentioned, you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE PRACTICING. One needs to understand the theory, the actual "science" underlying every aspect of every technique, in order to master things. Ask your "photo mumbo jumbo", "most amazing photographer ever" friend from texas, and ask her how the inverse square law applied when shooting an indoor studio portrait, and she'll probably stare back at you like an imbecile, and mutter something under her breath.

If you want a photography education, by all means, get one. But you will never earn a degree in weeks. So, enjoy the new gear. Enjoy the kids and the nice flash hubby bought you. Take lots of photos. And work on things at your own pace. Learn WHAT the camera controls can do. Like, flash exposure compensation. Wishing you good luck, and a merry Christmas season!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> just like a mom with a camera can take some great shots with proper settings.



ONLY if she USES the proper settings..


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## mwcfarms (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> What I have learned more than  ANYTHING ON THIS FORUM, is that photography is not a science, it is an art!  People have different theories and different methods for achieving the right exposure, sharpness, etc.



Wrong, photography is part art and part science. Simple as that. You can take a awfully boring picture and call it art all you want. Now I am not saying that yours are ****ty at all. I am just using that as a demonstration. Photography is part science and part art. But understanding the science goes along way to making the art successful.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT: There have been more people here in the forum who have tried to help you  than is usual.. from what I have seen. There have been more pages of  comments, posts, critique's, etc... generated over your questions,  skills, etc... than usually occurs. We have repeatedly told you what you  need to do to fix the issues you are having... and you seem to be  unable (or unwilling) to apply that information.

As a "teacher  and a professional", you should be able to take the BASIC information  that has been given to you.. and utilize it. You have made  improvements.. but then you go backwards for whatever reason. I am sorry  that people have been rude to you, but possibly they have run out of  patience? I was one of the first people to reply to your pleas for  help.. and stated at that time that your shutter speed should be kept  above a certain speed, that you needed to close down your aperture,  etc.... and as yet those things are not yet a constant in your  photography, even though many others have reiterated the same advice to  you. I stopped posting in your threads, because I got tired to saying  the same thing over and over... without results. 

I do hope that  you are a better teacher, than you are a student! (and stating that you  are a teacher and a professional doesn't mean anything.... if you are  unable to act and learn in an intelligent manner to back that up!)

I  am not trying to be rude.. just trying to explain why people may have  been rude to you.  I actually started to wonder if you were a troll...  purposely doing things like that to make people angry, but in your  persistence.. I have decided you are not a troll. However, I do not  understand WHY you cannot grasp the basic concepts that have been gone  over (and over and over!)


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## Vtec44 (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> They even have different theories on the best ways to learn.  I have a photographer friend in Texas who is probably the most amazing photographer I have ever seen!  Her advice to me is the opposite of everyone on here.  She says, get your head out of the book and don't spend hours of time on all of the that "photo mumbo jumbo"  (lol exact words)  get out there and shoot, shoot all day, different times, different people."    That is how she learned and she is now extremely successful! People seek out her work from around the country.  If she didn't live in Texas, she could be of more help to me.



I think it's great to get out there and practice.  However, you need to practice correctly to improve.  Snapping a lot of pictures won't automatically turn you into a great photographer.  You need to learn how to recognize your flaws, your weakness, and how to correct and improve them.  Practice doesn't make perfect but practice correctly will make perfect, IMHO.


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## pgriz (Dec 10, 2011)

Photography IS an art, but it is underlaid by physical principles.  Ignore those, and you struggle.  Learn to use them, and you remove an impediment to your art.  To progress in the acquisition of any skill, it helps to break down the learning exercise to as few variables as possible, so that you can work on understanding THAT variable, mastering it, then progressing to the next.  There is much to be gained by practice, but for it to be effective, it also helps to have a game plan.  For instance, nailing the focus under different situations, then learning to expose, then learning to use the flash, and so on.  Your friend may have learned to do it by trial and error (as have I), but when comparing my work to that of more "seasoned" photographers, I found out I had gaping holes in my understanding of how light works.  So, despite having had 40+ years of "experience", I can say that doing the same thing badly won't change it.  It is only when you begin to create a conceptual structure that you can see what you are working on, where the structure is weak and where you've got it nailed.  

As a teacher, you know that knowledge is built up from fundamental principles, and that presenting a student with a challenge beyond their knowledge base is often an excercise in frustration and futility.  Yet you are learning photography in dribs and drabs, and trying to collate your experience into a meaningful structure.  While not impossible, it is hard.  A lot of the advice you got is actually pretty consistent, although there are differences of opinion on the exact sequence.  The reason that some have said that you should NOT use flash yet, is that flash exposures are more complicated than "natural light" exposures.  Yet in other ways, they overcome the lack of light and can improve the situation.  If I were mentoring you, I'd suggest trying to keep things simple.  Determine what you have got working, and what you haven't.  If you want to use a forum like TPF, show the specific issue you're working on, make it clear that THAT is the issue, and nothing else, and let people comment on it.  Once the "issue" is trashed to death, and you feel you have a good handle on it, move to the next one.  This being the internet, you'll always have some "noise" mixed in with reasonably good advice and occasionally great advice.  Getting a "BS" filter is an important skill to extract maximum utility out of this medium.  But I think you already knew that.


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## tevo (Dec 10, 2011)

The lighting is seriously hurting my eyes. On Camera Flash is a NO-NO for close up portraits like this... you need to have off camera lighting. Eek.

Focus shouldnt even be that hard to attain...


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## Derrel (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:
			
		

> a mom with a camera can take some great shots with proper settings.



If by "great shots" you mean well-exposed, focused shots, I suppose so.

A mom with a cookbook can make some nice meals, indeed. As long as the chicken is already cut-up and foam-and cello-wrapped. As long as the salmon has been filleted. As long as the oysters have already been shucked. As long as the banana cream filling is made by Jello Brand. And the pie crust is from the frozen section. Most "moms" have zero idea about how to dispatch,pluck, and then cut up a chicken. Most "moms" cannot fillet a salmon or a ling cod. Most "moms" cannot shuck an oyster. Most moms have never, ever made a banana cream pie filling. I can do all those culinary tasks, and it took quite some time to learn all those chef *"basics"*. No recipe needed,no guidebook,no cheat sheet...I actually "*understand what"* the task is, and how it has been done by tens of thousands who came before me...that is what happens when one actually accomplishes *"learning".*

Recipes, paint by number paintings, etc,etc. Yeah, sure. You're right.


My favorite painter is a guy named Paint B'Numberz...he's from Ohio...


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## MLeeK (Dec 10, 2011)

OK... Let's try something different here before they all kill each other...

You've read a couple of books or so. How about you TELL us what you have learned from those books. What have you learned about the things you are trying to master?


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## tevo (Dec 10, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so..... make me a ham sandwich

i expect you to hunt the pig for the meat, make the bread, mayo, grow the lettuce and tomatoes, and forge the knife. ready go



(and you have to handmake every tool necessary for completing each of the tasks above)


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, I don't know what your problem is tonight.  Maybe you're just lonely on a Saturday night.  My family has already gone to bed, so I have all kinds of time to go back and forth with you.

As far as knowing how to pluck a chicken, I would say that is a skill most no longer need to have.  Same with photography.  There are some skills that Mom's don't need to have to achieve good or great results.

This isn't a case where the OP is saying she wants to go pro.  This isn't a case where the OP is wanting to shoot a wedding next week.  She just wants to take better shots of her kids and friends.  Nothing wrong with that.

Me sharing a 'recipie' is along the same lines.  If friends comes over for dinner and likes the food, I'll also tell them how I made it.  What I won't do is tell them that their stove isn't good enough, that they should take more time before learning to do it, and that maybe they aren't ready for it.  It's not that big of a secret...unless you are talking about my Pecan Pie recipe, in which case, it will go to my grave with me.


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## MLeeK (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> WOW!  DOWN GUYS, DOWN!  Everyone gets so personally offended. I am not ignoring your advice.......IN FACT, YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE SHUTTER. I SHOT AT 1/100 AT THE VERY LEAST..._*BUT MOSTLY AT 1/200-- -1/400.*_  I posed a few shot WITHOUT my flash and in those circumstances I did slow my shutter to 1/60. I could have raised the ISO but personally, IMO, I couldn't stand the noise.  I may not be a professional photographer but if you give me advice on PHOTOS THAT ARE MINE, that I dislike, I am not going to take it.  You are all not gods gift to photography just because you are pros.  And in case you haven't noticed, you all give opposing advice.  It is quite possible that I have ignored one person's and taken another's.  The EGOCENTRISM AND NARCISISM ON HERE IS BEYOND!  I even just double checked my info on my photos!  So, instead of jumping down my throat about not listening, maybe you should re-evaluate your electronic sources for reading my info!
> 
> My goal for this shoot was focus.  I took these in the evening in my house.  I did not use the speedlight flash for all of these! My husband purchased a speedlight for me and I played around with it on a few shots.  I shot about 5 shoots last week all of which has about 200 photos in them.  I learned what I could about FOCUSING...and then posted 6 photos out of like 1,000 for cc on focus.  Grantid, if my lighting improved, that would have been great but my concentration was focus.  So you see, I AM TAKING YOUR ADVICE!  Perhaps if everyone wasn't so darn full of themeselves they would realize that I AM TRYING MY DAMN HARDEST TO APPLY EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING.  I am not out to get everyone on here with some vivious global ignoral plot.
> 
> ...



This tells me that you aren't even paying attention to your settings, because you can't shoot at 1/400 with your flash unless you are using high speed/rear curtain sync and seeing how you are just putting your flash in TTL and shooting I am pretty sure  you haven't any idea how to use it. 
This is exactly why I want you to slow down. 
Shoot ONE image. THINK about the settings you make in the camera and why you make each one.
Decide:
1. What do I need first and foremost? Are you shooting both girls and need a deeper depth of field? Are you shooting the girls and have to have a minimum speed of 1/200? 
What do you NEED most of all?
2. After you decide what that NEED is, then you are refusing to use a higher ISO, so the aperture or the shutter will be your second need. You already have made the decision about the ISO, so it's not something you are worrying about right now. 
3. THINK and make your focus where you want it. 

Take the photograph. LOOK at it. THINK about what your shutter speed did or did not do that you needed it to do. LOOK at the depth of field and decide if it is the correct thing.
LOOK at the focus very carefully and decide what you did or didn't do right. LOOK at the exposure. What does it look like? Do you need it to be brighter/darker... And how could you have achieved it... 
Shoot very deliberately. Keep taking snapshots every day for the memories-don't WORRY about those. But when you are shooting to learn shoot very slowly, deliberately and think about EVERY. LITTLE. THING. 
Don't try to dress your kids up and get them to pose perfectly, shoot them when they are at play with one of their favorite toys or something that has them occupied and you able to catch a moment to shoot them. The pressure of having them dressed and posed is also putting more on your mind than shooting very deliberately. You are putting some importance on the whole shoot. Someone said they have a limitless recycle bin-so do you. If you aren't pressuring yourself to get the perfect image and are thinking slowly about every aspect I think you will get some great shots and you will learn a lot.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm not part of this thread, have no desire to be... is it just me or should threads get locked after the first 50 posts of endless ring-a-around bickering/debating?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 10, 2011)

NO!
It's comedy gold!





























Continue.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 10, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NO!
> It's comedy gold!



LOL!


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

blackrose89 said:


> I'm not part of this thread, have no desire to be... is it just me or should threads get locked after the first 50 posts of endless ring-a-around bickering/debating?



Shouldn't you be off trying to figure out how to take pictures of Christmas Ornaments instead of whining about this thread regarding somebody who is trying to improve if she could just get past all of the posts like yours?

Btw, thanks for contributing absolutely nothing.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 10, 2011)




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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


>



You are the worst one of the bunch.  Just about every ridiculous thread has at least 5 posts by you, and you are usually the one who stirs it up to start with.  The only other ones that come close is KMH and o hey tyler.

The only reason I don't have you on ignore is because somebody has to refute all the crap you post.


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## unpopular (Dec 10, 2011)

We all know the real problem is that the photographer used digital, and if she used film, the results would have been much better.


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## zcar21 (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> My goal for this shoot was focus. I took these in the evening in my house. I did not use the speedlight flash for all of these! My husband purchased a speedlight for me and I played around with it on a few shots. I shot about 5 shoots last week all of which has about 200 photos in them. I learned what I could about FOCUSING...and then posted 6 photos out of like 1,000 for cc on focus. Grantid, if my lighting improved, that would have been great but my concentration was focus. So you see, I AM TAKING YOUR ADVICE! Perhaps if everyone wasn't so darn full of themeselves they would realize that I AM TRYING MY DAMN HARDEST TO APPLY EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING. I am not out to get everyone on here with some vivious global ignoral plot.



It seems idiotic to shoot a little girl 1000 times just to practice focusing. Why get so technical about the setting, there is no right answer, focus is only part of what makes a good picture. Color, composition, correct exposure, etc. are just as important, instead of looking for perfection, effort should be put in combining all those aspects to create the photo you want. 
It's just common sense. Teachers should understand this a lot better than students.


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## unpopular (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



where is the SUPERLIKE button?


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## mjhoward (Dec 10, 2011)




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## Robin Usagani (Dec 10, 2011)

I am glad there is an internet fight and schwetty isnt part of it.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I am glad there is an internet fight and schwetty isnt part of it.


You are the fourth worse...sorry you didn't make the list.


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## mwcfarms (Dec 10, 2011)

Haha ok which one of you is the MWAC video chick. Honest? I think its time to lock the post. Bitter you just shush. Go watch Tosh 2.0 or something on Comedy network lol.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerb, instead of fighting.. maybe you should shoot something and post it here.  It is a photography forum after all.  



Kerbouchard said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad there is an internet fight and schwetty isnt part of it.
> ...


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 10, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Kerb, instead of fighting.. maybe you should shoot something and post it here.  It is a photography forum after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And maybe you should stop harassing me and stalking my friends...You've already been banned from several other forums for your harassment and stalking nature.  I'm surprised you have lasted this long in this one.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 10, 2011)

Me banned?  I have never been banned on other forums.  Cindy is telling you lies again?  That woman seriously has some mental issues.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 10, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > I am glad there is an internet fight and schwetty isnt part of it.
> ...



I didn't make it either.. darn.. going to have to try harder! I always thought Kerb was the top of the list.. but not "his" list!  

EDIT: I know Robin.. and he isn't the stalker type. His sense of humor can be a little different, and he is sometimes less than tactful... but he is honest about it!


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## LightSpeed (Dec 10, 2011)

AMOMENT said:


> I am appalled at how horrible people have spoken to me and assumed such wrong things.*  I am a teacher and professional too*  and I would NEVER talk to anyone like this; eve if I thought they  weren't applying my advice correctly.  I can honestly say that I'm  surprised given everyone on here is supposedly adults.



What the hell does this have to do with anything?


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 10, 2011)

I swear on my 3 little girls that I have never been banned on ANY forums.  This forum he is talking about is a forum that Cindy (bennilou) wanted me to join. http://www.digitalweddingforum.com/ I signed up for a trial and I have to pay $130/year to continue.  No thanks!  She claims she is a respected member there.  Then I found out she never posted her wedding works there.. that is when the stalking accusation start coming out because I looked at her posting history.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 10, 2011)

LightSpeed said:


> AMOMENT said:
> 
> 
> > I am appalled at how horrible people have spoken to me and assumed such wrong things.*  I am a teacher and professional too*  and I would NEVER talk to anyone like this; eve if I thought they  weren't applying my advice correctly.  I can honestly say that I'm  surprised given everyone on here is supposedly adults.
> ...



It doesn't!   lol!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 10, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I swear on my 3 little girls that I have never been banned on ANY forums.  This forum he is talking about is a forum that Cindy wanted me to join.  I signed up for a trial and I have to pay over $150/year to continue.  No thanks!  She claims she is a respected member there.  Then I found out she never posted her wedding photos there.. that is when the stalking accusation start coming out because I looked at her posting history.



really? Gosh.. half the people on TPF must be stalkers then! lol!  Since I know we all go out and check out profiles.. and look at the posting history, just to check veracity or whatever....


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