# The Art of Photographic Critique (a.k.a. constructive criticism)



## Peeb (Aug 5, 2017)

Here is an interest and (to me) helpful discussion of constructive criticism with some specific examples of photo criticism:
A Crash Course in The Art of Constructive Critique


Would you tend to agree or disagree?

I was taught that criticism should be structured like an oreo cookie:


First something good to say
Next, point out the flaws
End with a positive aspect
Always made sense to me, anyhow.


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## zombiesniper (Aug 5, 2017)

The part I always struggle with is "CC welcome".

If the photographer is that lazy with the question and background info, I'll tend to be just as lazy with the advice. This leads me to not bother.

A good critique to me starts with some knowledge about the shoot and the intended outcome, as well as where the OP thinks they may want assistance. I may see 20 things wrong or in need of help but if the OP is working on light placement then that is what I should focus on.

So to start a good CC comes from an effort put in by the OP to frame what should be the focus of the critique.

Example:

Looking for some CC on my photo.
This was taken in my living room using two 160 Wattsecond monolights.
Each light was placed at 6' and 45deg from the subject at half power.
Camera 5D MK4
Canon 70-200 F2.8 @ 85mm F8
Subject was 2' in front of the backdrop.

The purpose of this shoot was to get a business headshot.
The issue I am having is that the lighting looks flat. I am looking for suggestions to help with this.

PHOTO.

With the above you have nearly everything you need for an accurate assessment of where the OP can improve. Yes you may add one or more other suggestions but at least you know exactly where to start.

As for the assessment.
I do agree with some of the article but some of these things are just common sense. "That sucks!" Is only a way to get into a fight. Nobody listens to someone that tells them they/thier work sucks. Pointing out an issue or problem without knowing how to solve it is just hot air and provides nothing.

My simple method for giving an assessment is.
Describe the issue giving the possible reason/reasons it could have happened as well as providing at least one possible solutions. If the OP has provided guidance on an aspect of the photo I will try and concentrate my efforts there.

Example:

OP, based on the info you have provided the flat lighting is likely due to the fact that the light is perfectly even in power and placement which will in turn make your image look flat. Try starting with just your Main/Key light. Get this set up to the required placement and exposure.
Once this has been done bring in the Fill light at half the power of the key light and see if this is the look you are going for. Keep adjusting the fill light until you are satisfied.
Another thing I would likely advise is to practice with a single light until every aspect of single studio light is understood. Then bring in a second/third etc. I may also suggest a book.
At this point I may suggest any other issue I may have noticed.
Lastly I would encourage the OP to try to shoot it again and come back with an update.


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## Peeb (Aug 5, 2017)

The only CC I've ever gotten on TPF that gave me any heartburn was criticism that cut to the error like a lazer- without any indication that the image had merit otherwise.  

I'll agree with @zombiesniper that vague requests for CC are difficult to know what to do with- but often a noob doesn't even know what is wrong- just 'something'.  

I'll disagree with my friend, however, in dismissing the advice that seemed like simple 'common sense'.  I've seen a fair share of criticism lacking in this 'common sense' from time to time and (IMO) NOT as a result of malice- just a lack of awareness.  I'm quite certain I've done it myself.

I'm not advocating a 'participation trophy' for every post seeking CC, but finding at least SOMETHING of merit to mention even in passing goes a long way to soften the blow.


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## Bill The Lurker (Aug 5, 2017)

the author's heart is in the right place but in the end she's just advocating for making the same pointless circle**** of technical CC more polite. her earlier piece on  how CC is inpractice mainly about clique-forming seems to be on point.

still she plants the axiom that technical CC has a point which frequently it doesnt. blown highlights mianly matter to people who have been taught that blown hghlights matter. they only matter when they matter which is rarely. agree wth zombiesniper that CC can be useful if you ask specific questions but nobody does beyond the usual how can I replicate this other togs look.

mostly people just want to know if their pic is any darn good and mostly what they get back is a bunch of technical blah blah blah that they don't care about, and then they get chased away leaving the forum safe for the old guard.


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## Peeb (Aug 5, 2017)

Bill The Lurker said:


> the author's heart is in the right place but in the end she's just advocating for making the same pointless circle**** of technical CC more polite. her earlier piece on  how CC is inpractice mainly about clique-forming seems to be on point.
> 
> still she plants the axiom that technical CC has a point which frequently it doesnt. blown highlights mianly matter to people who have been taught that blown hghlights matter. they only matter when they matter which is rarely. agree wth zombiesniper that CC can be useful if you ask specific questions but nobody does beyond the usual how can I replicate this other togs look.
> 
> mostly people just want to know if their pic is any darn good and mostly what they get back is a bunch of technical blah blah blah that they don't care about, and then they get chased away leaving the forum safe for the old guard.


Wow!  That seems quite insightful from a perspective unconsidered by me. When I showed up 2 yrs ago I was 30 years removed from active photography so I expected that my submissions would be pretty harshly judged and I was not disappointed.  

I didn't perceive their criticism as an express or unconscious attempt to run me off- but some of it was pretty blunt. Anything I didn't understand I just assumed (pretty rightly!) that they knew more than I did and I vowed to figure out what they were talking about!  I'm still not a great photographer but my technical knowledge growing every day thanks to these guys. 

Might some folks be dishing out unduly harsh cc as a weapon to stake their turf?  Gosh I hope not but if they do, I bet they don't know that they are so maybe your post will help raise awareness!


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## smoke665 (Aug 6, 2017)

Peeb said:


> I didn't perceive their criticism as an express or unconscious attempt to run me off- but some of it was pretty blunt.



There are those sites out there where criticism is meant to mean patting someone on the back and critical observations are frowned on. So it was refreshing for me to see honest responses being put forth when I joined. 

That said we are all still people and the images we post are pieces of us, so insensitive comments can hurt. I think the anonymity of any online site sometimes leads people to say things in a manner that they wouldn't in a face to face discussion.

Fortunately there are many really good photographers on TPF who have the patience and skill to help others. Sadly there are also a few that seem to relish being an ass.


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## pixmedic (Aug 6, 2017)

people post for different reasons and just because someone doesnt post precicely what sort of critique they are looking for doesnt mean they didnt genuinely want help with the photo. likewise, someone not knowing all the technical jargon associated with more experienced photographers does not negate their critique of a photo, or the potential usefullness of their opinion. 
there are precise ways to ask for critique and precise ways to give critique, but in the end its up to each person to decide what photos they want to comment on and how. 
we all want to hear something good about our photos, and sometimes hearing whats not-so-good is tough, especially photos we have real vested interest in...
But I hope that as we give critique to others, we do so in the spirit of helping our fellow photographers improve, and when we ask for critique we do so respecting that the forum is a diverse place full of varrying opinions and tastes.


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## Peeb (Aug 6, 2017)

I think the real trick is finding a way encourage, even when commenting on a clear clunker. 

I'll admit that there have been a couple of occasions where someone had requested critique and I've really had no clue where they were going with that image- so I've just come out and asked- which was not intended to offend but was a sincere question. 

OTOH, I've seen longtime members complain that CC was actually TOO encouraging on this board and that mediocre images shouldn't be praised. Perhaps I'm too unsophisticated but I just can't subscribe to the thought that exceptional work is worthy of praise and everything else is rubbish.


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## Overread (Aug 6, 2017)

Critique isn't just about technical, its also about artistic. However on a site where many new members come to join early in their photography the technical often comes out more common. It's easier to give and also generally what people need the most of. There's no point going into long artistic discussions if the person can't get a solid exposure or get the camera to do what they want.

Just like someone learning to sketch has to learn how to draw before its worth teaching them extensive composition methods; a photographer has to learn their camera and lighting in order to unlock their artistic potential.


And yeah how you talk to someone is important. I get a lot of people say that people are so sensitive today; that they can't take critique. Equally I find that many people can't take any alternative viewpoint on their critique either. That those who give cannot also take any pushback. It's a shame because when someone disagrees with critique it should be a natural point to expand upon the original point made; to expand upon the viewpoint expressed and go into more detail and to then either discuss matters at length or agree to disagree. Sadly many get hostile (on BOTH sides) and as soon as insults are thrown around things go down hill fast.



The worst thing is that this happens RARELY. It really doesn't happen often. More often you'll get a thanks post or a eh ok or something like that. However this tiny handful of rare moments sticks in people like a septic thorn. Bubbling and boiling away until they get jaded and bitter at the whole process - by which point they either leave or lash out randomly.


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## smoke665 (Aug 6, 2017)

@Overread sort of touched on this in that good critique should be experience appropriate for the person you are critiquing. Obviously as he said offering advanced techniques to someone who has just started out isn't appropriate. Offering basic technical critique like WB or exposure to an advanced level photographer who made a design decision is not just unnecessary but borders on disrespectful. By the same token advanced level photographers shouldn't be given a free ride, but honest opinions on their work as presented.


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## Overread (Aug 6, 2017)

One problem is that people think that honest must be critical and that critical must be negative. The other problem is that most people have a very underdeveloped sense of artistic expression. Ergo many of us actually lack experience and vocabulary to articulate and order our thoughts beyond "nice shot". 

Many do learn, steadily, a larger repertoire but its focused on the critical side and thus critical negative elements get overly highlighted over positive ones. People are more likely to launch into a 5 page thread of negative aspects but very rarely will go beyond a few light comments in positive angles. 

It's a weakness in school that carries through to adulthood for many and its something that we honestly don't work toward enough in our learning. We've got to understand the good as much as the bad.


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## smoke665 (Aug 6, 2017)

Overread said:


> its something that we honestly don't work toward enough in our learning. We've got to understand the good as much as the bad.



Profound observation!


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## weepete (Aug 6, 2017)

I dunno. Seems to me that shot's on here get critiqued way more softly that they used to be, or maybe it's just me that's gotten used to it.

I'll admit, I don't always have time to go in depth with some posts, especially with 4 or 5 or more shots so quite often with them I'm quite to the point. Same if I just say "nice shot", there's nothing in particular I feel I can add. 

The vast majority of the time on here I don't see the kind of throw away comments that are highlighted in the article, it's very seldom I've seen a post without advice on how to improve it for next time.


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## Peeb (Aug 6, 2017)

weepete said:


> *I dunno. Seems to me that shot's on here get critiqued way more softly that they used to be, or maybe it's just me that's gotten used to it.*
> 
> I'll admit, I don't always have time to go in depth with some posts, especially with 4 or 5 or more shots so quite often with them I'm quite to the point. Same if I just say "nice shot", there's nothing in particular I feel I can add.
> 
> The vast majority of the time on here I don't see the kind of throw away comments that are highlighted in the article, it's very seldom I've seen a post without advice on how to improve it for next time.


Interesting- yes, either hypothesis could be correct:  either comments are now less harsh OR you've developed thicker skin.  Maybe both- who knows?  I think (hope) I've learned how to deal better with negative feedback.  If shots are indeed critiqued 'way more softly' I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing as long as the critique is honest.

This is definitely NOT a 'cheerleader' board where everybody pretends that every image is spot-on and that is a good thing.  Thoughtful analysis is healthy and necessary.  I don't think anybody wants to avoid that.  

I think we all get uncomfortable, however, when critique is given in a way that MIGHT be taken as a personal offense, then the original poster often DOES take offense and we're off to the races.  Very rarely happens that way, fortunately.  Again, I think the majority of time the comment that starts the trouble wasn't even INTENDED as anything but helpful.  The interwebz can just be a tricky place to authentically connect sometimes.


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## weepete (Aug 6, 2017)

Yeah, I wouldn't say I've developed thicker skin (my skin has always been pretty thick) however I know I have become more self assured in my own shots, which does come from development anyway. What I meant was more like desensitization, I may have just become used to how shots are critiqued on here.

You're right again, just because I think shots are critiqued more softly than they used to be it is not neceseraly (sorry I can never spell that word right!) a bad thing. In fact I would say it's a more positive move, as I think theres more constructive feedback by knowledgeable posters than there was in the past, though I do think that there are some things that slip through the net a bit more.

Generally misunderstandings are sorted out or theres a new poster who has been told their shots are great and don't like it when we spot some flaws and point them out.

I may also be looking at it that way though because I came here to get a very critical eye from experienced shooters whom I aspired to shoot like, and because it seemed to me that if there was any flaw in an image I posted someone here would point it out.

being purely offensive to anyone is not good and I wouldn't condone that, but I very rarely see that here. Disagreements sure, but we don't tend to decend into name calling, or lone disparaging remarks. Usually.


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## dunfly (Aug 8, 2017)

I thought it was a very good article and I try to write any critiques I have along those lines.  On the other hand, I rarely put up images for critique because I already know "_My exposure is crappy – My highlights are all blown out.”   _Most people already know what is wrong, they just want to know how to fix it.  That is where constructive criticism is really effective.


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## AlanKlein (Aug 8, 2017)

Peeb said:


> Here is an interest and (to me) helpful discussion of constructive criticism with some specific examples of photo criticism:
> A Crash Course in The Art of Constructive Critique
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with your three points.  That goes for any kind of "criticism" or advice, photo or otherwise.  One thing I would add is to make recommendations of how to improve the picture.  Good post.


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## Derrel (Aug 8, 2017)

weepete said:


> I dunno. Seems to me that shot's on here get critiqued way more softly that they used to be, or maybe it's just me that's gotten used to it.
> 
> I'll admit, I don't always have time to go in depth with some posts, especially with 4 or 5 or more shots so quite often with them I'm quite to the point. Same if I just say "nice shot", there's nothing in particular I feel I can add.
> 
> The vast majority of the time on here I don't see the kind of throw away comments that are highlighted in the article, it's very seldom I've seen a post without advice on how to improve it for next time.



I agree with the three points you make! cThe C&C here is wayyyyyyyy more gentle than it used to be; we used to have some real d***s that seemed to relish just brutally ripping noobs...most of those guys (and yes, they are almost always 'guys') were banned, or left.

With 4 and 5-shot posts, it's a monnumental effort to C&C all equally well.

MOST posts here offering C&C DO offer a way to improve next time; that seems pretty standard here on TPF.


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## Flash Harry (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah, I remember the 'brutal days' lol, trouble is society now can't stand the truth and so critique has been toned down to the stage where you need to be giving out mutley badges in case you offend anyone, personally I know when I've made a s**t shot, can see when somebody else has too and have said as much in the past but then again 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' so everything is personal really. 

I tend to stay away from critiquing others for those reasons, the subject matter is immaterial and I reckon all critique on photography forums should be limited to technical mistakes, exposure, colour, focus etc, if you're not getting those right then there should be plenty help at hand around here.


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## dennybeall (Aug 9, 2017)

I want to know what the photographer was trying to accomplish with the photo. If it was meant to be beautiful or just to document an event the CC would be different.
Usually focus is critical BUT what if the photog wanted soft focus? 
The lightpole growing out of Aunt Joan's head may be on purpose.


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## BananaRepublic (Aug 9, 2017)

I think the number of members on here is gone down since I joined, only a few years ago. Has critique been watered down, yes it has or perhaps I'm getting better at taking images or I don't post up much anymore.

Best advice on how to get critique on here is to only post between Monday and Thursday.


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## bribrius (Aug 13, 2017)

I have actually received some VERY knowledgeable and good critiques on here and very helpul ones that i was greatful they put the time and effort in. Been a couple years now but once people figured out my level of expertise, how i shot (maybe somewhat how i thought?) And a basic idea of my level of equipment a few individuals centered their critique easier by my past posts knowing what i might have missed or needed work on. Takes a lot of "getting to know" the person though


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## SquarePeg (Aug 13, 2017)

I like zombiesniper's take on this subject.  Asking for cc without giving an idea of what you're struggling with makes it more difficult for anyone to truly help and for the op to improve their skills.   If you want genuine cc you need to think about what you're looking for advice on and provide your own input first.  

Sometimes though, you just want affirmation that the shot you like appeals to others as well.  And I think that's ok too. In that case a simple request for comments/feedback is valid, IMO.  

I've seen the complaints and laments for the "good old days" when harsh criticism was the norm. I guess I don't understand why anyone would prefer that type of vibe to one where criticism is given but with a kinder voice.  If only the best most technically correct perfectly composed photos are acceptable without harsh criticism and ugly attacks then the forum would be pretty toxic and more of a war zone than a supportive community.


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## DanOstergren (Aug 14, 2017)

Generally the only formula I try to follow for giving feedback is pointing out what the photographer did right and then pointing out what needs work and how to improve it. While I think it's important to tell someone what they are doing right, I sometimes just cut to the chase if the issue is overwhelmingly bad, and at the very least try to also explain why in my eyes I see it as something that ruins or takes away from an image. 

If the photographer is someone I know to be skilled, I will forego pointing out what was done right and just tell them what I think can be done better.


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## rexbobcat (Aug 16, 2017)

Personally, I prefer to remind them of every mistake they've made in the past 10 years. Then I offer them coffee but I forget to tell them my coffee pot is messed up so it has a lot of grounds in it and also I'm out of sugar. Afterwards I make sure they know that I am a superior photographer because it's the truth. 

Once I've built this level of trust, I know they'll be receptive to honest critique and hopefully will take it to heart because, as I said, I am superior.


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## Peeb (Aug 17, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Personally, I prefer to remind them of every mistake they've made in the past 10 years. Then I offer them coffee but I forget to tell them my coffee pot is messed up so it has a lot of grounds in it and also I'm out of sugar. Afterwards I make sure they know that I am a superior photographer because it's the truth.
> 
> Once I've built this level of trust, I know they'll be receptive to honest critique and hopefully will take it to heart because, as I said, I am superior.


This, of course, is a superior post.


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