# Too much light, or try different backdrop?



## Alzran (Oct 5, 2014)

So, I set up a little video studio in the hallway behind my college's IT department where I work, and I'm having an issue.

Normally when I'd work with lighting and a black backdrop in my dorm room, I'd just use a couple dingy lamps about two feet away from my face and a black sheet on the wall behind me. The results after color editing look like this:

 

However, working with the studio I set up yesterday, I'm having an issue dropping the backdrop out of the picture, and I'm wondering if it could be because of too much lighting. Here's a quick before/after:

Before color/tone editing:
 

After color/tone editing:
 

Granted, it doesn't look terrible, but I'd really like to be able to drop it out completely. I don't pictures of my lighting setup but can get that to y'all tomorrow if you need to get an idea. I have four work lights in front of the subject (two from the ceiling, two from the floor), and one 60W lamp hanging above the subject's head to provide some contrast against the backdrop for their hair (nobody likes disappearing hair). If I darken it any more, the subject loses tone. I used GoPro Studio Professional (personal computer) to do these images here, but do have access to Premiere Pro CS6 and full Creative Cloud on my work computer if that may provide a way to drop that curtain out without darkening the subject.

I'm curious if it's possible to have TOO MUCH light when it comes to working with backdrops.


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## tirediron (Oct 5, 2014)

Your subject is too close to the background.  Move them out 4-6' and, if you can, feather the light so it's not shining directly onto the background.


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## Derrel (Oct 6, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Your subject is too close to the background.  Move them out 4-6' and, if you can, feather the light so it's not shining directly onto the background.



I saw the photo you posted yesterday, the new IT area hallway setup, and I would say that yes, she is too close to the background. But in another way, you could also state the issue a bit differently. Based on what I saw in the photo you posted, the lights are too FAR from the background as well; at that longer distance, the light does NOT fall off in intensity very much. You've got the place set up with all those overhead lights so far away from the black background that the light is fairly EVEN in intensity.

You had the lights well behind the camera position...not helpful.

If you move her farther from the background cloth, and closer to the lights, she will become brighter, and the DISPARITY in brightness between her,and the black fabric, will become more marked. However, you could ALSO simply move the lights closer to her, and probably get the same, or better effect--WITHOUT the need to drop the background in post correction, but instead actually do it "for real", and "in-camera".

Strobist: Lighting 102: 1.2 - Position | Distance

Go here, and look down the page to the pair of photos of the man named Jason.

In one scenario they have him 25 feet from the light, with the background 31 feet from the light, and the background six feet behind him is WHITE!!! In the second image, the light is ONE FOOT from him, and the wall is 7 feet behind him, and the background is BLACK.

So, as you can see, it's not necessarily, 100% that you ned to move the woman farther from the wall; moving the LIGHTS closer to HER would actually be a quicker way to get to a solid, clean, black backdrop without the need for grading the video to make black actually be black.

And also, the hair light-- if that thing does not have barn doors, or some kind of reflector, or some kind of flag, to control it, you might be spilling a ton of light onto the black fabric.


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## Derrel (Oct 6, 2014)

So, in a way, neither solution you ask about is likely the right solution. Too much light, or try a different backdrop are two questions that ignore the way light works, scientifically. A better question might be, "*How should I re-configure my lighting set-up*?"

Again, this is based on what I have actually seen of your small shooting area, in a photo you posted of it, and now, the above sample pictures.

Since you are new to lighting,m I would suggest a steel tape and a bit of diagramming out of actual distances, so you have some real, actual hard data to work with, and learn from. Write down the real data, and diagram this stuff out.

Then, work on getting the lights closer to the subject, substantially. If you want PURE, deep black in flat, ungraded video, you need to move the key light MUCH closer to the subject position, so you get away from that "flat, even light that has little fall off over distance", and move much more into the range of* CLOSER light-to-subject distances* where, behind the subject, the light drops off rapidly.

I am suggesting moving the light closer to the subject because I have actually SEEN how cramped and narrow the shooting area is. You have a fundamental problem that needs to be overcome by measures that are more basic than feathering the light, etc. In such a cramped area, the walls are massive fill sources, and you NEED to have much,much steeper,or more-dramtic, loss of light over short distances. Tirediron's suggestions are assuming a more real studio type set of options; you are shooting in a hallway.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 6, 2014)

The inverse square law applies to light fall off and distance. A light 2' from your subject that is set to an appropriate exposure for your subject will have a much greater fall off affecting the area behind your subject (and even your subject depending on the distance, you can create light fall off across a person's face if you set up right) as opposed to a light 8' away from your subject set to expose your subject appropriately.

This is important to know. This will allow control of the light that hits the background as well as lighting large objects and groups. Put a light 2' infront of a group of several people at varying distances and the will be at a much more varying set of exposure values vs. a light put at 8' away.


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## Alzran (Oct 6, 2014)

I've measured it off.... the hallway's about 5 1/2 feet wide.

CURRENT POSITIONING OF THINGS:

The stool is about 12-14" from the backdrop.
The lights are about 6 1/2 feet from the stool. The floor lights are about 2 1/2 feet below the subject, the lights on the ceiling are about 2-2 1/2 feet above the subject. The center ceiling light (at the back of the hallway) has been removed since all it ended up doing was dousing the picture with light. The "hair lamp" is about 2 to 2 1/2 feet above the subject's head. I can move it up a bit and fashion a barn door to keep it from washing the backdrop.

Adjustments I can feasibly make:

The backdrop can be moved back six inches and the stool could be brought forward another six inches. That would give another foot (making about two feet total) of distance between the subject and the backdrop.

The lights hanging from the ceiling are, unfortunately, fixed in position because of the way I had to rig them. The lights on the floor I thought good to keep directly below the lights on the ceiling, but maybe I'm wrong?

The camera is flush even with the lights in terms of distance from the subject. I can move it back a little bit if necessary, but I don't have a whole lot of room to work with given the partition wall that remains closed during filming.



Although... I was just informed two seconds ago by the head of IT that "Nu, uh, you are NOT keeping that stuff back there." So, I now get to try and find another place to set this up. Hopefully a place that's a bit wider will open up?


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## Alzran (Oct 6, 2014)

What would y'all suggest for a 8'x12' space as far as measurements?

Four work lights, one or two top-down mounted lamps behind the subject, and of course, I can buy as many black sheets as needed for backdrop. (I'd probably buy one or two more than I already have anyway).


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## Village Idiot (Oct 7, 2014)

How about spending money on flashes instead of backdrops? Having adjustable power would go a lot further to having a black backdrop, even when ou don't have a black backdrop.


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## CameraClicker (Oct 7, 2014)

The stool is a foot from the backdrop?
8 X 12 is a tight space.  Usually I put four to six feet between subject and backdrop, and ten or twelve feet between camera and subject.

Derrel already covered it.  The idea is to have bright light on your subject and no light on the background.  You can do that with distance, or with very careful light placement and modifiers like grids, barn doors, flags and so on.  A backdrop and walls that do not reflect also help.


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## Alzran (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, here's the new space. It's a little bigger than the old space, but not terribly big. It's actually a quiet study room in the library that the head librarian graciously said I could use so long as I'm willing to work around whatever is already in there. Bought two more black sheets to add to an existing curtain, put the backdrop up. It'll get ironed out this weekend, and I'll end up getting one more sheet to cover the side wall completely. I have about two feet between the stool and the backdrop and using the manual settings on the video camera the school let me use (I finally discovered how to activate the manual adjustment mode), I was able to get the backdrop to drop out almost entirely in-camera. 

The lights are closer to the subject, and I'm only using three lamps now instead of the five I was using before (two in front of the subject, one up high aiming downward behind the subject). For now it's all I have to work with. I'm looking at building diffusers and barn doors for the lights (one of the lights is shown on the left) when I get the chance, but as it is it's already looking better than before.

I'm also going to see if, after I add an extra sheet to the side wall, I can move the subject forward another foot (but the side and rear cameras, tripods shown in this picture, would have to move as well and there's a desk that might get in the way). I know a total of 3 feet between the subject and the backdrop isn't an ideal amount of space, but right now even that would be a bit of a stretch given the space I've been allowed to use. 

The room is tall, with a 12-foot ceiling, and it's empty, which means there's a lot of echo. I found a bunch of unused soundproofing foam in the lighting closet near the stage in the main building, asked if I could use it, and put some up on the walls behind the backdrop to help deaden some of the echo. There's more that I'll be putting up, but for now I'm pretty pleased with the space. For lower-than-amateur work, this'll work fine.


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## Derrel (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, you are persistent, and are not letting obstacles get in your way. Good for you! Glad to hear you've figured out a way to get the background fabric to drop off to black in-camera! That's a big step for you.

On that hot light, I wonder if you could make a grid for it? A grid being, well, like a series of small squares made out of say, 2-inch by 2-inch tall by __ long strips of heat-resistant material, with slits cut in the pieces so they can be slid together, and a sort of* "crossword-puzzle-like" *grid of small, square areas created. When you put a grid onto a light source, it keeps the light going straight ahead, and cuts the amount of light that bounces around the shooting area. A grid ALSO keeps the light very confined to the closer, subject area, and makes the background light drop off pretty rapidly.


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## Alzran (Oct 9, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Well, you are persistent, and are not letting obstacles get in your way. Good for you! Glad to hear you've figured out a way to get the background fabric to drop off to black in-camera! That's a big step for you.
> 
> On that hot light, I wonder if you could make a grid for it? A grid being, well, like a series of small squares made out of say, 2-inch by 2-inch tall by __ long strips of heat-resistant material, with slits cut in the pieces so they can be slid together, and a sort of* "crossword-puzzle-like" *grid of small, square areas created. When you put a grid onto a light source, it keeps the light going straight ahead, and cuts the amount of light that bounces around the shooting area. A grid ALSO keeps the light very confined to the closer, subject area, and makes the background light drop off pretty rapidly.



I did a little Googling around, and this is what I found. When you say grid, is this what you're talking about?

Studio Lighting - Homemade Gridspot - DIY Photography

And would something like that withstand the heat of the light? I also need to get a fan in there to pump the hot air out after a subject is done filming, or between subjects. It got pretty hot in there last night over the course of 3 hours of filming; so hot that my third subject was actually sweating.


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## Derrel (Oct 9, 2014)

I was thinking of something with bigger grid openings and made of metal. What I was thinking was something like this, the Lowel brand "egg crate" type of grid. Lowel - Video Lighting Systems, Light Controls, Stands Mounts Cases Lighting Kits Tungsten and Fluorescent Lights - Vistek Calgary Toronto Edmonton Ottawa


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## Alzran (Oct 9, 2014)

Ah. Well, that's definitely out of my budget to buy. But I can see if I might make something similar. Now to think of a heat-resistant material that I can easily fashion into a grid....


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## Derrel (Oct 9, 2014)

Have you seen the way Christmas tree ornaments have an inner grid, that is made up of strips which have slits cut into them, where the squares intersect? Do you know what I am talking about? The material? Brass or tin sheeting, cut with tin snips to make the slits where the pieces go together. 

OR,go with a bunch of pieces of aluminum or brass square tubing cut into 1.75 inch lengths and epoxied or wired together.THERE's your grid!!! Aluminum Square Tube


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## CameraClicker (Oct 9, 2014)

You're using a halogen work light as your light source?  I bet that's a warm experience!  Along with the grid, you need a fairly light tight wrap to keep light from spilling out the back of the grid.  With a light that hot, you need metal, and to remember not to touch it until it cools after use!  Is the library attached to a school?  Is there a local high school that has a trades class?  They might have a metal brake that can bend sheet metal into a box, and a tool to cut the pieces you need for the grid.  The size of the openings and the length of the slats determines spread.  Once assembled, spray paint the whole thing flat black.


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## CameraClicker (Oct 9, 2014)

So, I was inspired by this post.  But, I use strobes, so I don't have to worry quite as much about heat.  I decided to make a grid for one of my Bowens lamps.

I started with an empty Maxwell House coffee can, it is the same diameter as the Bowens reflector, so if you cut the middle out of the lid, you get easy attachment.  And, I cut the bottom off the can.  The can is made of paper so it's easy to cut.


 

I stripped the outer plastic cover off the can, which leaves a silver coated paper can, and cut up a box a computer monitor came in, to make the grid.  I started with just a square.

  

Testing it showed I needed more grid, so I added some more cardboard
  

So here is the difference in light between just the can, the square grid and the 3X3 grid

   

My suspicion is the cardboard is too heavy, but I spray painted everything mat black and now I have to wait 24 hrs before I can assemble and test.  The paint dries to touch in about 15 min.  But it is too soft and will scratch if I slide the cardboard into the can because it is a snug fit.  If the cardboard is too thick, it will be easy to make a thin version since now I have the template.
Notice how we went from lighting the whole room to just lighting a more or less circular spot.  That's what a grid does for you.  I have little ones that go on my speedlites.  They give a nice round circle of light with pretty even fill, which is the objective here, too.  The other thing I could do is fill the end of the can with drinking straws.  If I see any black straws for Halloween I might pick up a couple of packs.


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## Alzran (Oct 9, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Have you seen the way Christmas tree ornaments have an inner grid, that is made up of strips which have slits cut into them, where the squares intersect? Do you know what I am talking about? The material? Brass or tin sheeting, cut with tin snips to make the slits where the pieces go together.
> 
> OR,go with a bunch of pieces of aluminum or brass square tubing cut into 1.75 inch lengths and epoxied or wired together.THERE's your grid!!! Aluminum Square Tube



That could work pretty well, actually. Sheet metal's not terribly expensive and I've worked with it a lot in the past. Thanks for the suggestion! 



CameraClicker said:


> You're using a halogen work light as your light source?  I bet that's a warm experience!  Along with the grid, you need a fairly light tight wrap to keep light from spilling out the back of the grid.  With a light that hot, you need metal, and to remember not to touch it until it cools after use!  Is the library attached to a school?  Is there a local high school that has a trades class?  They might have a metal brake that can bend sheet metal into a box, and a tool to cut the pieces you need for the grid.  The size of the openings and the length of the slats determines spread.  Once assembled, spray paint the whole thing flat black.



Three halogen work lights, actually. It certainly is a warm experience. There is a high school nearby, but my college where I am has a maintenance shop with tools that I can use if necessary (but I've got my own tools that should work if I'm just using sheet metal).


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