# Dare I ask?



## RxForB3 (Sep 3, 2012)

I know this is a rather touchy subject, but here goes...

I've really been sucked in by all this photography fun.  Unfortunately that means more money for more gear.  Justifying the extra money is becoming harder to do as the cost of the gear I "need" goes up.  It would be much easier to do if I could subsidize the cost of the gear.  First...a disclaimer:

I know I'm not a professional.  I'm nowhere near a professional.  I realize this is like many other posts of people wanting to start a full-fledged business when they are just learning.  However, I just think that I have managed to take some photos that people might enjoy.  This may have been more out of luck than skill, but it is what it is.  I would like to consider ways of monetizing my lucky shots in a minor way.  So...

Would SmugMug, or Zenfolio considering the recent price increase of Smugmug, be an avenue where someone like me could potentially sell a few prints.  I'm thinking I may have about three or four photos that may be worthy of selling.  Would a portfolio of so few shots be swallowed up in those sites and end up costing more than I might make?  Some of you will know some of the photos I've posted.  Do you think I'm overstepping my status as a photographer?

I come humbly asking, fully realizing the wrath I may draw upon myself by this question


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## amolitor (Sep 3, 2012)

It's sad that you fear wrath 

You're really unlikely to sell any prints, regardless of how good you are, with just a "post some photos on some sites" approach. If you're serious, try to find a niche. There's guys that shoot sailboat racing, for instance, that make some decent money through these sites. Shooting sailboat races is pretty hard and requires a bunch of gear and skill, but there are loads of niches. If you want to go this route, find a niche where you can sell people, basically, pictures of themselves. Think events, activities, sports, competitions, whatever. What are YOU in to?

People will buy pictures of themselves, even if they're not perfect.


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## cgipson1 (Sep 3, 2012)

If you have good shots that will sell, great! But with millions of others out there doing the same thing.. the competition is pretty fierce! Never know until you try! I will say that I seldom sell a print to strangers online who found me randomly (It does happen occasionally, but not not often! But then I only Flickr and FB.. none of the normal "selling" sites!). I do sell quite a few to friends and co-workers, friends of friends and co-workers, etc..


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## RxForB3 (Sep 3, 2012)

Well, I definitely agree with that last sentence, but unfortunately I'm really not interested in that sort of thing   And I wasn't fearing the wrath, but just fully prepared for it considering the nature of my question!

I have decided what I want my niche to be.  I'm LOVING taking night-time landscapes.  Unfortunately that's where the new gear comes in.  I purchased a 5D Mark III that I absolutely love, but I keep thinking, "what if my car breaks down" or things of that sort.  I'm still within the return period, so I'm probably sending it back.  I've decided that the Mark II just won't suffice because of the lower high-ISO performance and so a Mark III or perhaps the next Canon camera (the 3D X if that really is a reality) is in my future.  In the meantime, the T3i just doesn't even come close to performing for that niche.  So I'm hoping to subsidize the purchase of the next camera via selling the few successes I've had so far.

In any case, your answer is what I was mostly expecting.  Any other thoughts of ways to just sell a few prints here and there to help finance the hobby?


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## RxForB3 (Sep 3, 2012)

To be clear, that last post was in response to amolitor's post.

CGipson, I get the typical responses from my friends/family/coworkers, but selling to them for any profit is hard for me to do   Maybe I should start a "support the cause" on facebook to prompt some of them to ask for prints   A fundraiser of sorts...


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## Tamgerine (Sep 3, 2012)

We all have hobbies, and we all wish we had more money to do those fun things we love. Unless you're an excellent networker who has a lot of family and friends who would buy your prints anyway, I'm not sure you'll make up the investment of purchasing a SmugMug or ZF account.

I think you either need to give yourself permission to feel okay spending money on the things you like to do, or decide if you want to put more effort into improving, selling, and marketing your work. Either way, you're giving up something. You either give up your money, or you give up your time and effort trying to make that money back. 

You could always try joining an artist co-op, or hanging up some work in a local coffee shop to try and sell there. Or building up a large body of work and trying to rent a booth at a festival.


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## tirediron (Sep 3, 2012)

Cold sales from an on-line website are likely to be somewhere around zero or a bit less.  If you're willing to invest a couple of thousand dollars on a gamble, then talk to local coffee-shops and small galleries and discuss showcasing your work there.  Depending on the gallery or shop, it will likely cost between 15 and 40%  of the selling price.  If you do go this route, make sure that you get your work printed at a proper lab (NOT a big box store that spews off prints in one hour or less!) and have them matted and framed.


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## Derrel (Sep 3, 2012)

Lotto tickets look pretty good compared to cold sales off of a website like Smugmug or Zenfolio...I'd definitely start springing for three or four tickets per week...SMALL-priced tickets, like $2 picks.


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## RxForB3 (Sep 3, 2012)

Heh, and considering my luck with lotto tickets, I'd be doomed on Smugmug or Zenfolio.  Guess I'll try to figure something else out!


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## orljustin (Sep 3, 2012)

If you liked to work on cars, would you take up racing to pay for it?  Of course not.  Pay for your hobby with your other money, just like anything else.


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## jhodges10 (Sep 3, 2012)

Let me share some of Derrel's other bits of wisdom from a similar discussion:



			
				Derrel said:
			
		

> Coffee shops exist for the purpose of selling coffee, coffee products and ancillary items, and for people to hang out and talk, dink around on WiFi-connected laptops,people-watch, and to drink coffee in. Need a new French press coffee maker from Bodum? A new gold coffee filter? A new aluminum, insulated car coffee mug? A pound of Sumatran coffee beans? ;well, I dare say, a coffee shop is a GREAT PLACE to buy ANY of the aforementioned things. Need new wall art for your home, office, or vacation place? Uh...a coffee shop ain't the place to look for wall art...
> 
> I was down at Les Schwab Tire Center, getting some new tires last week, and they had some DANDY dog leashes for sale, hung on the walls! I don't have a dog, but I thought, WOW! HOW Cool! Dog leashes--at a tire-and-wheels place! Awe-suuuum!"
> 
> See how that works???



That being said who knows, maybe it would work.


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## jhodges10 (Sep 3, 2012)

BTW I'm in the same place as you. I've got some photos that I think are excellent and might sell if I could figure out the right venue. I just bought a D800 and a 70-200 2.8. I had several sleepless nights trying to decide if I should keep it or send it back. Ultimately I kept mine (I upgraded from a D60), hoping to continue to improve my skills and figure out if I can make a living out of photography or if this would be my lifelong hobby/passion. Some people would tell you to send it back and focus on getting better with what you have but I've learned over the years that having the right tools makes things a hell of a lot easier to get a job done. To put it in Derrel like terms you could spend two hours shoveling snow off of your driveway or you can buy a snow thrower and be done in 15 minutes. I don't know your finances so I can't say keep it or send it back definitively but what I would say is if you're not dependent on selling your work to fund the new equipment then keep it, if you are then send it back.


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## DiskoJoe (Sep 5, 2012)

You make more money in the beginning off jobs then you do off prints. Find somebody needing a portrait photographer or a wedding photographer and make some money that way.


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## SCraig (Sep 5, 2012)

Why is that everyone with a camera envisions themselves as a professional photographer, but few with a set of golf clubs envision themselves on the PGA tour?  Or everyone with a fishing pole on the Bass Masters pro whatever it is?

Just enjoy your hobby.  If and when you get good enough to sell something you'll know it.


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## cgipson1 (Sep 5, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> You make more money in the beginning off jobs then you do off prints. Find somebody needing a portrait photographer or a *wedding photographer *and make some money that way.



You might want to get insurance first, though... in case you screw it up and get sued or something!


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## TonysTouch (Sep 5, 2012)

SCraig said:


> Why is that everyone with a camera envisions themselves as a professional photographer, but few with a set of golf clubs envision themselves on the PGA tour?  Or everyone with a fishing pole on the Bass Masters pro whatever it is?
> 
> Just enjoy your hobby.  If and when you get good enough to sell something you'll know it.



Because golf clubs and fishing poles don't have an AUTO mode.


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## SCraig (Sep 5, 2012)

TonysTouch said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > Why is that everyone with a camera envisions themselves as a professional photographer, but few with a set of golf clubs envision themselves on the PGA tour?  Or everyone with a fishing pole on the Bass Masters pro whatever it is?
> ...


Excellent point!  Wish I'd thought of it!


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## RxForB3 (Sep 5, 2012)

Now I specifically said I know I'm nowhere near professional.  But that doesn't mean I can't/couldn't sell some photos.

No, golfers don't immediately think they can join the pga, but they do sometimes enter local/amateur tournaments for money...

Plenty of musicians who are nowhere near professionals play for weddings, church services, funerals, bars, etc.  And they get paid.  There's nothing wrong with that.  They don't charge/get paid what a professional would.


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## tirediron (Sep 5, 2012)

Pay = professional.


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## TonysTouch (Sep 6, 2012)

To an extent, I wouldn't call the winner of a middle school photography contest with a first place prize of $25 a professional.


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## RxForB3 (Sep 6, 2012)

Pay does not equal professional.

Professional: A person engaged or qualified in a profession.

Profession: A paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

Keyword being an occupation.  Plenty of people get paid to do things.  The kid doing yardwork for a few bucks.  The friend that fixes the plumbing for a small fee.  The friend that helps fix your car for a fraction of the price of a mechanic.  Doesn't make them professionals.  Professionalism and being a professional require a higher standard.  There is nothing wrong with seeking to monetize to a small extent something that you enjoy doing, as long as you don't represent yourself as a professional.

I agree that many people do seem to try to jump into photography as a profession just because they can point and shoot.  But not everyone that is wanting to sell a few photos is trying to make it their occupation.


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## Jaemie (Sep 6, 2012)

Since your work seems to be focused on beautiful landscapes and natural scenery, perhaps you would have better chances selling prints at farmers' markets, art festivals, pow wows, and music festivals. Several TPFers set up weekly booths; I wonder how it's going for them. At least, it would give you an opportunity to see the public's reaction to your craft, and it could be a gateway to other professional work. 

Here are some threads that might interest you:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/professional-gallery/289124-art-fair-laguna-beach.html

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/183905-selling-prints-local-craft-show.html

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...819-wanna-start-doing-art-wine-festivals.html


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## RxForB3 (Sep 6, 2012)

Thank you, Jaemie.  I think Tamgerine said it best.  You either give up your money, or your time and effort to make back that money.  I'll have to look into some of the local farmer's markets, but I doubt I'd ever want to give up the time to do that   I need to fall back on my other hobby that I DO consider myself a professional at: music.  I actually have a degree in music and at one point it was going to be my occupation (hence, professional), and it's a pretty good way to earn some decent money with little time.


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## molested_cow (Sep 6, 2012)

I find it really weird that some people will buy first then think about whether they can afford their purchases. It pretty much sums up the US economic crisis.


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## pgriz (Sep 6, 2012)

People usually don't buy photographs - but they are willing to pay dearly for ego-boosts.  However, that means shooting something THEY want, which is not necessarily what YOU want to shoot.  As was mentioned in other threads, it's about knowing and understanding your (niche) market - the better you know what motivates people, the better is your chance at selling them something.  As well, people buy the "experience" and are usually willing to part with more cash to get the premium feeling.  Smart business people know that and make the entire experience as rewarding and pleasurable to the buyer as possible.


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## Steve5D (Sep 6, 2012)

SCraig said:


> Just enjoy your hobby.  If and when you get good enough to sell something you'll know it.



It would seem, reading the OP's post, that he believes he has reached that point...


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## Steve5D (Sep 6, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Pay = professional.



That's not even close to accurate...


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## tirediron (Sep 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Pay = professional.
> ...


How so?  If you accept payment for something you are performing a professional service.  The quality of said service may be sub-par, but it's still a professional service.  As soon as payment is involved, then there are certain expectations, namely, that if someone is charging for <whatever> service, than they have the skill to render it properly.  Sadly, that's not always true.


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## pgriz (Sep 6, 2012)

Sigh.  Are we arguing about which of the dual meaning of "professional" applies here?  Again?


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## unpopular (Sep 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > Just enjoy your hobby.  If and when you get good enough to sell something you'll know it.
> ...



More important, why does everyone want to be a "professional"? It's just a status thing, it's a way of saying "i'm so good, people want to actually pay me for my hobby". Take a look in the professional gallery. It's filled with boring, uninspired yet technically perfect images which, for the most part all look exactly the same. I can dig it, people have expectations, but why is it that this is what we aspire for?

I'm not saying that pros are never good and that all pros are artistically inferior. I understand that you've got to bend for your customer's and profit; but there is something else going on when people "pro-worship", and often it ends up with emulating bags of tricks. Some of these people even become moderately successful. I'd rather never sell a single image than jeopardize my artistic vision.

Still, you don't get to the level of celebrity (or even the level of fashion magazine) by copying bags of tricks. Truly successful photographers have artistic vision regardless of market, and know how to sell that vision.


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## unpopular (Sep 6, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Sigh.  Are we arguing about which of the dual meaning of "professional" applies here?  Again?



Yeah. I know. Why can't people just come to the conclusion that not all _professionals_ deliver what would normally be considered _professional quality_?


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## KmH (Sep 6, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Truly successful photographers have artistic vision regardless of market, and know how to sell that vision.


QFT - "and know how to sell that vision."


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## unpopular (Sep 6, 2012)

For example, Anne Geddes sells to Winnie the Poo t-shirt wearing, cat collecting, middle-aged spinsters. 

Leibowitz sells to people who either know too much about art history, or nothing at all.


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## Steve5D (Sep 7, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



If the only thing which made someone a professional was the acceptance of money in return for something, then I would've been the Lemonade King of Suffolk County, New York at the tender age of 8...


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## Steve5D (Sep 7, 2012)

unpopular said:


> More important, why does everyone want to be a "professional"?



Why is that even _remotely _important?



> It's just a status thing, it's a way of saying "i'm so good, people want to actually pay me for my hobby". Take a look in the professional gallery. It's filled with boring, uninspired yet technically perfect images which, for the most part all look exactly the same. I can dig it, people have expectations, but why is it that this is what we aspire for?



I aspire to do the types of photography which interest me and, when appropriate, to make as much money possible doing it. There aren't too many photographers who've ever inspired me. The list is short, but impressive. And none of them post here...



> I'm not saying that pros are never good and that all pros are artistically inferior. I understand that you've got to bend for your customer's and profit; but there is something else going on when people "pro-worship", and often it ends up with emulating bags of tricks.



So, some guy says he thinks he's good enough to sell some photos, and now he "worships" pros?

Really?

You must've read a lot more in his post than I did...



> Some of these people even become moderately successful.



And that's not a bad thing, is it?



> I'd rather never sell a single image than jeopardize my artistic vision.



Well, then it's likely that you never will. Paying clients rarely care about your "artistic vision", but they often want you to care about _theirs_...



> Still, you don't get to the level of celebrity (or even the level of fashion magazine) by copying bags of tricks. Truly successful photographers have artistic vision regardless of market, and know how to sell that vision.



Who said anything about "celebrity"? Those people are very few and far between, and I don't believe anyone picks up a camera truly believing that they're going to be the next photographer to the stars...


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## unpopular (Sep 7, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> > I'd rather never sell a single image than jeopardize my artistic vision.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then it's likely that you never will. Paying clients rarely care about your "artistic vision", but they often want you to care about _theirs_...



Welcome to mediocrity.


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## HughGuessWho (Sep 7, 2012)

[h=2]Definition of _PROFESSIONAL_[/h]Per www.merriam-webster.com
1*:* of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession 

2*:* engaged in one of the learned professions 

3*:* characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession 

No mention of money there.


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## tirediron (Sep 7, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> *Definition of PROFESSIONAL*
> 
> Per www.merriam-webster.com
> 1*:* of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
> ...


True; photography, in that strict sense is NOT a profession.  The use of the word "professional" with respect to career-choices such as photographer, chimmney-sweep, drain-cleaner, and a host of others which have no formal accrediation or requirements is generally used as a way of separating two groups of people.  Those who do it for a living, that is, to make money and earn all or part of their livelihood from it, and those who do it purely for enjoyement.  There is no standard of performance for a "professional" photographer, rather an expectation that because he/she is charging for their services, they must know what they're doing.


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## Steve5D (Sep 8, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > > I'd rather never sell a single image than jeopardize my artistic vision.
> ...



Enjoy your artistic vision...


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## Steve5D (Sep 8, 2012)

tirediron said:


> There is no standard of performance for a "professional" photographer, rather an expectation that because he/she is charging for their services, they must know what they're doing.



What if someone's selling prints at an art show?

There is no expectation of anything regarding the photographer. The work is there, and it is what it is. Someone will buy the pictures or they won't. Whether or not the photographer knew what he was doing when they took the picture is, when someone buuys a print, absolutely meaningless.

Sure, I'm splitting hairs, but "knowing what they're doing" doesn't make someone a professional any more than simply making a few bucks...


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## tirediron (Sep 8, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> ...but "knowing what they're doing" doesn't make someone a professional any more than simply making a few bucks...


Couldn't agree with you more!


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## unpopular (Sep 8, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



Do you think Annie and Ansel got to their status by yet more photos like your avitar? Great photographers have vision, they recognize the value of that vision and protect it.

Technical skill alone doesn't make a great photographer.


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## Steve5D (Sep 8, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Do you think Annie and Ansel got to their status by yet more photos like your avitar?



I don't know what my avitar [_sic_] has to do with anything. It was a quick self-portrait...



> Great photographers have vision, they recognize the value of that vision and protect it.



Recognizing the value of a "vision" is an ocean away from getting someone _else _to recognize that value.

If you want to be an "artist", then I think that's great. Art is important. But, all too often, art doesn't pay the bills. 

Ask the next 100 "artists" you run across and ask them if their art is paying the mortgage, college tuition for the kids, a car payment and other monthly bills. I think it would be interesting to learn how many are living hand to mouth so they can protect their "vision".

Now, with that in mind, the OP hasn't said a thing about sacrificing anything. He may well be keeping his "vision" intact...



> Technical skill alone doesn't make a great photographer.



Nor does "artistic vision". A person can have the finest idea of what he wants something to look like, but it'll likely be a trainwreck if he doesn't have the technical skills to apply in order to realize that vision. 

We would also need to define what "great" is...


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