# Owners Property



## Lamora (Mar 28, 2015)

Hi, I have a legal question. (I hope this is the right forum for this) I know that if a face of someone comes up, I need their written OK.  I want to take some picture of some horses, barns and such. Someone said that I need the owners permission to do this, even if it is from the road. I respect Privet Property and no trespassing, but I have also heard that if you can see it from the road, it is OK to take pictures. I was just wanting to know what I can take and what I cannot. I cannot seem to find anything on this. 

Any help would be extremely appreciated..... (yes, i like icons..)


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## Designer (Mar 28, 2015)

We answer legal questions all the time.  The fact that we're not lawyers hasn't stopped us from offering free legal advice.  

My answer; (free, remember) if you intend to make money off the photograph, you need a signed model release.  For everybody over the age of 18, and some parent or legal guardian in the case of minors.  

You should not attempt to photograph certain groups, such as; Amish, Taliban, drug dealers, or anybody who is pointing a weapon at you.  Other than that, have at it.


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## dennybeall (Mar 28, 2015)

After you meet the legal requirement of not trespassing  the key is the use of the photos. If you are using them for commercial purposes then you need permissions. Usually unless it's a commercial building with a company logo you'll be OK with the use of the building photos. I'm not a lawyer either.


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## ryanestes (Apr 1, 2015)

My _understanding_ is that if you're able to see something from public property -- i.e., a road, a sidewalk, etc. -- you're all good. If there are people in the picture, you would need a model release _if_ you wanted to use the picture for commercial use. For editorial / personal work, I believe you're fine. The phrase I've heard tossed around is that if people have "a reasonable expectation of privacy" then you'd better ask first before photographing them or using the image commercially. If people are in a public place, or in a privately owned spot that has no reasonable expectation of privacy (think someone standing on a balcony in Paris, for example), you are welcome to photograph them. But of course, using images commercially in that case you're really taking a risk by not getting a release.

For property / buildings -- I'm pretty sure you don't have to have a release to use it, even commercially (do people who take cityscapes of NYC have to get releases from all the building owners? do people who shoot landscapes that stretch across multiple properties have to? Don't believe so.). Animals? Huh. Couldn't answer that one.


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## dennybeall (Apr 1, 2015)

The biggest problem with building in my understanding is not the building but if there is a corporate logo, like Coke Cola or Xerox, that may be a problem.


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## tirediron (Apr 1, 2015)

The intended use is what's important.  Editorial or commercial (Loosely translated as, "Artistic" or "Advertising")?


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## Mr. Innuendo (Apr 2, 2015)

I believe that a building can actually be trademarked. If you've ever been to The Experience Project in Seattle, you've no doubt taken note of the unusual design of the building. Well, the design of the actual building, and the building itself, are trademarks for The Experience Project (relatively sure of that) . You can shoot photos of it all day long, but you'll run afoul of the corporation which operates it if you try to use those photos for advertising.


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## pgriz (Apr 2, 2015)

Privacy rules also change by country.  What works in the USA may not work in other jurisdictions.  So it is important to know a poster's area of experience to interpret their advice.  I believe that how copyright is exercised in practice is also jurisdiction-dependent, even though there are international conventions on copyright usage.


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## Austin Greene (Apr 2, 2015)

Lamora said:


> Hi, I have a legal question. (I hope this is the right forum for this) I know that if a face of someone comes up, I need their written OK.  I want to take some picture of some horses, barns and such. Someone said that I need the owners permission to do this, even if it is from the road. I respect Privet Property and no trespassing, but I have also heard that if you can see it from the road, it is OK to take pictures. I was just wanting to know what I can take and what I cannot. I cannot seem to find anything on this.
> 
> Any help would be extremely appreciated..... (yes, i like icons..)



Edit: IN THE US

If you are in a public space, such as a public roadway, you are free to take photos of whatever you want. In these spaces, legally there is no "reasonable expectation of privacy" for people to argue against you with. Faces or not, you're good to use the photos for whatever you like as long as it doesn't damage someone's reputation.

Bottom line, take all the photos you want of those horses, so long as you don't cross the fence. If the owner asks you to leave, do so politely, but they cannot demand you delete the photos.


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## pgriz (Apr 2, 2015)

Designer said:


> You should not attempt to photograph certain groups, such as; *Amish*, Taliban, drug dealers, or anybody who is pointing a weapon at you.



Didn't realize that particular group has violent tendencies comparable to the others you've listed.


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## KmH (Apr 2, 2015)

An online photography forum is not a reliable place for seeking legal information.
Visit Photo Attorney but even there Carolyn states - "*The information here is for educational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice."*

Model and property release law is not as cut and dried as laws like traffic laws. Model/Property release law is state law, not federal law like Copyright is, so there are 50 somewhat different versions of model/property release law in the US.
Check what laws Idaho has.
Better yet, consult with an attorney that has experience with model/property/publication law in Idaho.



Designer said:


> if you intend to make money off the photograph, you need a signed model release. .


You *might* need a signed release. But you might not.

You do not always need permission to use someones likeness if you intend to make money from the photo.
Nussenzweig v. DiCorcia - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
A photo with a person in it can be sold as art. Selling art images is an editorial use, not a commercial use, so permission is not required.

You *do* need permission to use a person's likeness if their likeness will be used for a commercial purpose.

As mentioned, here in the US, if private property can be photographed from public property no permission is needed to make photographs.
Most photographers will never need a property release.

Wedding photographers often shoot on private property - wedding venues - and would likely need a property release to use photos made there for a commercial purpose, like advertising their wedding photography business.

A good reference to have a copy of is -
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things


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## orljustin (Apr 6, 2015)

Lamora said:


> Hi, I have a legal question. (I hope this is the right forum for this) I know that if a face of someone comes up, I need their written OK.  I want to take some picture of some horses, barns and such. Someone said that I need the owners permission to do this, even if it is from the road. I respect Privet Property and no trespassing, but I have also heard that if you can see it from the road, it is OK to take pictures. I was just wanting to know what I can take and what I cannot. I cannot seem to find anything on this.
> 
> Any help would be extremely appreciated..... (yes, i like icons..)



First off, I suggest you read this, so you are able to ask the question you want in a way others will be able to help you: Model Releases

"I want to take some picture of some horses, barns and such. Someone said that I need the owners permission to do this" - You don't need anyone's permission (as long as you're not breaking any laws) to just take pictures of horses, barns and such.  Just aim and shoot.  Done.  The complexity comes when you want to start talking about things like selling prints, licensing rights and that kind of thing.  Read that post above, figure out what you really want to know and ask again.


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## Didereaux (Apr 6, 2015)

> "A good reference to have a copy of is -
> A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things



a very useful trference


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## Gary A. (Apr 6, 2015)

To reiterate, in the US, generally there are no restriction to photography if you are on outside public ground, (i.e. a sidewalk, street, a park, et al). There are always exceptions ... probably for everything ... but in this case a reference was made to "expectations of privacy". That is a very gray area ... but just use common sense and you'll be fine. In particular, expectation of privacy refers to ... a scenario similar to you're on the street and you see a wardrobe malfunction ... the person turns into a doorway or down an alley to fix the problem ... you need to respect that privacy and not chase them down the alley or shoot them in the doorway.

Shooting is much different than usage. You can shoot faces and buildings all day long if you or your subjects are in public. You can use those images all day long on your web site, here in the forum even in your brick & mortar gallery. You can even sell them, print them up and sell them in book form ... if the images are "art" or "editorial". You're crossing a line if the images are used commercially, for endorsement purposes or to sell stuff. Once you've crossed that line you better have all your legal ducks and legal paperwork all lined up.

If you are on public property or your subject(s) are on public property ... shoot away. If your usage is personal (art/editorial) you're protected by our First Amendment and your images are an expression of free speech. If you use the images commercially, (advertising/marketing/endorsements/et cetera), now you need paperwork and the signed blessings and agreements of your photographic subject(s).


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## SurvivalDad (Apr 6, 2015)

I think Ryan has the right of it. Seen from public property should be fine with those few exceptions.


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## Lamora (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for all the info! Sorry it took me so long to respond. I really appreciate all of you answering. I try not to get faces in, especially with children, some parents are a bit paranoid and I can fully understand that. I had some release forms a while back, thinking I will have to get some more, just in case..    And usage was in mind, if I can. And I fully understand and respect privacy of others, me, myself and I would really hate having our pictures taken w/o permission. And on that note, I try not to get people as a whole. (fairs, parades, rodeos are different tho  )  But thanks again for all the information and links.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 13, 2015)

Usually at an event there will be guidelines from the organizers or the venue about taking pictures. They may allow attendees to bring cameras or may restrict usage of long lenses, etc.

I find having done sports/events that in general photography can often involve interacting with people and it's necessary to know or learn how to deal with people.

As far as photographing someone's barn or property it might depend... I live in a small town where not much ever happens, but over the weekend there was someone who noticed a woman wandering around near their garage. Of course with the beautiful weather on a Saturday people had garage doors open etc. and they discovered that the woman had apparently walked off with some of their tools right out of their garage. So I wouldn't be surprised even if you're out on the road or sidewalk where it would be legal to take photos to be asked what you're doing (I wouldn't expect the property owner to know what's legal and what isn't when it comes to photography).

I find it not that hard to strike up a conversation and people are usually fine with me taking pictures of their garden or whatever. If you think you may want to use the photos for something more than personal use or fine art prints or to submit to the local paper etc. you might want to have releases on you and get them signed. (Even for editorial use a release may be requested by a news outlet.)

Try American Society of Media Photographers, they have a 'pocket' release and an app and I don't think you have to be a member to access them.


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