# Calumet:  another one goes under....DONE



## 2WheelPhoto

Calumet's bankruptcy filing and unexpected closures has shocked and  angered some of its fans. A posting on its Facebook page said the  company did not inform employees and some showed up at work only to find  out it had closed.

Popular chain Calumet Photo files for bankruptcy - Houston Chronicle


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## Derrel

OH, MAN....bummer...I bought my first studio flash setup from them back in 1986...sorry to see them go under.


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## Ysarex

The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.

Joe


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## 2WheelPhoto

+1 Derrel, I hate to see any company like that go.  More competition means better/cheaper for consumers, plus it means more folks working!


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## 2WheelPhoto

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



+1 

The internet is killing all retail.  I'm an amazon.com shareholder, not walmart or best buy


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## NedM

I better buy their $60 tripod before they close their stores near me!


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## ronlane

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe




I'll raise my hand, but only half way because I bought it from BestBuy.


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## Derrel

I'm not privvy to Calumet's books or anything, but my gut feeling is 1) too many store locations and 2)too much emphasis on slow-selling, higher-end "pro gear". I think their business model was just not suitable to the "new economy" where one mega-website can do all the selling, and in that way, minimize monthly rental/lease costs, payroll costs, and the task of stocking inventory in multiple locations...the trend has been toward web-based ordering, not multiple brick and mortar locations. B&H and Adorama each have one physical store, but they manage to serve the entire country. Calumet's older model of regional outlets just does not seem to be that cash-efficient now that on-line shopping, on-line research, and on-line BUYING have become so commonplace.


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## 2WheelPhoto

bets on next one to fall?  or wait, is there a brick chain left to fall?


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## NedM

Adorama  ^


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## astroNikon

ronlane said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll raise my hand, but only half way because I bought it from BestBuy.
Click to expand...

+ 1/2  BestBuy here too for my d7000
my d600 came from Adorama

But doesn't Nikon/Canon keep their new camera sales close to Retail across vendors ?
It's just everything else including package bundles, etc !!


A few camera shops around here too have closed throughout the years.  First they tried to expand there offerings to probably compete against the online places.  But that probably couldn't stop the onslaught of lost sales to online.


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## unpopular

I liked Calumet for some things, they had a great large format selection (mostly for me to drool over), and I used to really like how their site was laid out (though they changed it). Their studio rigging selection was also really good and well organized.

But comes to think of it, I am unsure I ever actually bought anything from them.


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## 2WheelPhoto

unpopular said:


> I liked Calumet for some things, they had a great large format selection (mostly for me to drool over), and I used to really like how their site was laid out (though they changed it). Their studio rigging selection was also really good and well organized.
> 
> But comes to think of it, I am unsure I ever actually bought anything from them.



+1

Brick and mortar shops nowadays are just store fronts for online sources.


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## Civchic

We have a small independant store here in town that have been around forever and ever - Belle Arte Camera.  He's staying in business by shifting to carrying stuff you can't get on Amazon or at Best Buy.  Collectible stuff, consignments, supplies for dark rooms and printing, special studio lighting.  He does a lot of workshops and teaching, and has a rabidly loyal customer base.  If you want to try a lens, or see how something feels, he's the place to go, and if you're selling/buying used equipment it's the only place.


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## deveaushawn

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



:bounce:

Couldn't find an emoticon with its hand raised, so you get the bouncy guy

I make a point of supporting my local guy, and even pay a little extra sometimes to do so.


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## Overread

The way I see it is that its not just the internet killing local shops; but also the constant rising of rates and rent on owning a highstreet shop. Least in the UK that's often a big killer - its not that just that the internet takes away some custom; but also that shops are required to expand their customer base far beyond what most get from a highstreet location. It's why a lot food shops are doing well since they get regular constant streams of customers; whilst profitable (Before tax and rent) shops that deal with more specialist or niche market products simply can't survive - and if they do they are way out in the sticks in the poor regions of the town.


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## IronMaskDuval

The problem is that small brick and mortar stores won't compete with the internet, but the truth of the matter is that they can. Just because they are brick and mortar, does not mean that they can't sell internationally with technology the way it is today. Along with integrating an eCommerce platform into their business, beating or meeting online prices without having your customers haggle with you is also relevant to staying relevant. Sure, you make less profit per sale, but you will see more volume, which will make up for NO SALES AT ALL!!! I love and support small businesses, but I don't understand why most small business owners are so set in their ways despite imminent failure. I won't even do business with start-ups or small businesses unless they are adaptive to change.


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## kathyt

I used to go there all the time if I needed something quickly or on impulse. Damn.


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## terri

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



Absolutely!   And it is still the best way to buy one, even if you think you know what you want.  Being able to hold it in your hands, check its heft and look it over...can't put a tag on that.

Bad news, indeed.


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## 2WheelPhoto

terri said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!   And it is still the best way to buy one, even if you think you know what you want.  *Being able to hold it in your hands, check its heft and look it over...can't put a tag on that*.
> 
> Bad news, indeed.
Click to expand...


Sad thing is most put it in their hand then go order online.  Brick and mortar has become a storefront for the online merchants.  Go feel it, then order the high end item online and not be charged taxes.


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## minicoop1985

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



Canon 7D, Tamron 17-50 f2.8, my Hasselblad 1600f, and poor wasted film that was exposed to make horrible photos, all from Murray Photo, downtown Appleton, WI. They're not a chain-one store and a rudimentary web page more than site that tells hours and what brands they sell.

Calumet was ungodly expensive for a lot of things. I did get a Hasselblad strap from their eBay account for $15, but on their website, man was some of their stuff expensive-a LOT more than KEH or Adorama.


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## bc_steve

I end up buying most of my stuff online from brick and mortar stores elsewhere in the country.  I'm usually shopping for the lowest price, and that's where I find it, not with the big box stores.  (Canada)


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## SpikeyJohnson

When I bought my D3200 a few months ago, I bought it at a Sam's Club. Since then I have bought 2 lenses, an sb-700 filter's and batteries. I bought my 50mm 1.8g at a local shop because it was the same price plus a small amount of tax. Which I found a good price to pay to know how it felt and all. The Tokina 11-16 I ordered because I could get it the next day from B&H for 200$ cheaper (even paying next day shipping) than waiting a week atleast to receive it and then pay 200$ more. I was supposed to go on a fishing trip that weekend so I wanted it Thursday, not next Thursday. My SB-700 was from Best Buy because it was a last minute thing for an assignment for a class. My close by store was closed and I needed it to shoot at 6 am. All in all I am a starving Digital Media student and can't afford too much but if the price is close, I will most of the time go to my brick and mortar.


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## webestang64

2WheelPhoto said:


> +1 Derrel, I hate to see any company like that go.  More competition means better/cheaper for consumers, plus it means more folks working!



I should know......I'm working at one of the last 2 here in St. Louis, when I started in 1985 they were about 15 very good store/labs.


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## JerryLove

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.


 I tried to find one. I couldn't (best buy not withstanding).

I'd find great value in a local camera shop. I would expect they could get "close enough" to online to make the added service and expertise worth buying there for me (I bought my $1200 vacuum from a local shop). They just don't seem to exist.

Given how many pawn shops are here, and that almost all have camera equipment (and I've bought 2 cameras from local Pawns), a camera shop that could also repair, and could validate that what I was getting was working, and could provide advice, etc in the used market would, again, be compelling over the internet.

But people need to know it exists and is "close" to online prices. 

I can think of many similar goods (like kitchenware) that have, though trimmed by internet competition, stayed in business through the addition of cooking classes and expert advice. I think Cameras need to be going the same way.

Hell. I'm tempted to offer up a "how to work the buttons" class (something I at least am competent to do at this point) through my LLC.


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## Derrel

JerryLove said:
			
		

> SNIP>I can think of many similar goods (like kitchenware) that have, though trimmed by internet competition, stayed in business through the addition of cooking classes and expert advice. I think Cameras need to be going the same way.
> 
> Hell. I'm tempted to offer up a "how to work the buttons" class (something I at least am competent to do at this point) through my LLC.



According to an online article announcing the Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing, Calumet was strongly pushing its sales associates to sell one-hour "Getting to know your camera," classes for $100.


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## johngpt

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



Joe, just yesterday (or maybe friday) I called Albuquerque's two most well known camera specialty stores asking if they carried Fujifilm's cameras and lenses. I'm interested in holding and trying out the feel of either the X-E2 or the X-T1 and a couple lenses.

Neither Kurt's Camera Corral nor Camera and Darkroom carry any Fuji stuff. None of the big box stores such as Costco, Sam's, Best Buy carry Fuji. I would gladly go to local stores to purchase. I had purchased my Canon 40D from Camera and Darkroom back in 2008 using lay-away. I had purchased because I had been able to physically handle it and compare it with the Nikon D200. In 2011 I was forced to purchase the Fuji X100 online.

If local places won't carry the items in which I'm interested, I'm forced to go online. So I spent a lot of time on a Fuji X forum. And this coming Friday I should be receiving a rental X-T1 and Fuji's XF 60mm macro lens to try for five days. Not cheap to rent, but compared to the expense of a purchase, this is a way for me to determine if these items are what I'd be willing to purchase.


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## Derrel

johngpt said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe, just yesterday (or maybe friday) I called Albuquerque's two most well known camera specialty stores asking if they carried Fujifilm's cameras and lenses. I'm interested in holding and trying out the feel of either the X-E2 or the X-T1 and a couple lenses.
> 
> Neither Kurt's Camera Corral nor Camera and Darkroom carry any Fuji stuff. None of the big box stores such as Costco, Sam's, Best Buy carry Fuji. I would gladly go to local stores to purchase. I had purchased my Canon 40D from Camera and Darkroom back in 2008 using lay-away. I had purchased because I had been able to physically handle it and compare it with the Nikon D200. In 2011 I was forced to purchase the Fuji X100 online.
> 
> If local places won't carry the items in which I'm interested, I'm forced to go online. So I spent a lot of time on a Fuji X forum. And this coming Friday I should be receiving a rental X-T1 and Fuji's XF 60mm macro lens to try for five days. Not cheap to rent, but compared to the expense of a purchase, this is a way for me to determine if these items are what I'd be willing to purchase.
Click to expand...


FujiFilm's camera division is very small, and the company has almost no dealer network in the USA. Last month I wanted to look at the Sony A7, so I went to BestBuy...they did not have one, and a computer inventory check revealed that in this ENTIRE region there was exactly ONE unit in stock, at the BestBuy located right near the airport...so, ONE, single A7 in a 40-mile radius in the "big box" network BestBuy maintains! A week later, I went to a ONE-outlet store, Pro Photo SUpply in Portland, Oregon, and they had the A7, and I demo'd it there. Of course Pro Photo Supply caters much more to the high-end camera market, whereas BestBuy sells lots of compacts and lower-end cameras and lenses.


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## usayit

BUMMER!   I purchased a few things from there but mostly through their ebay store.

The website is down now BUT their auctions on ebay are still active.  Wonder if the items are still being honored.


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## gsgary

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



Ill raise both my hands both my Leicas were bought from bricks and mortar stores


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## unpopular

I'd be inclined also to buy a camera in person if it were an $8000 body...


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## ratssass

...bought my last *NEW* camera body at Best Buy,last 2 used bodies here,last 2 lenses at a Mom&Pop bricks and mortar store.Anytime I've asked them if they could match an online price from Adorama/B&H,they've gladly done it.They've given me great rental deals,and I would hate to see them ever go under.


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## Gavjenks

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



So? Why do I *want *brick and mortar to stay around? For cameras, they seem obsolete. Brick and mortar benefits are instant possession and ability to try stuff out. Which is great for purchasing meat or clothing. But for cameras, I don't have any reason to need one right now versus two days from now, and return policies are so good that trying out to test for defects is of minor importance.

And the brick and mortar charges at LEAST 25% more on everything where I am, and for smaller items, as much as 200-300% more. The exact same filter I was looking at the other day was $20 on Amazon, and $75 at my local camera store?? Why pay exorbitantly more for no apparent benefit?

So what's left to make me care? 

* Jobs? Propping up obsolete technology for the sake of jobs is bad policy. Should we have avoided switching to lightbulbs indefinitely because we were worried about the candlemakers' jobs?
* The environment? A fine argument if the brick and mortar store sells locally produced things, but not a valid argument when it's all coming from Japan either way, like cameras. It's using up 80 bazillion gallons of fuel versus 82 bazillion gallons of fuel.
* Local taxes? The better solution to this is simply to pass a non-stupid sales tax law that requires online retailers to require local sales tax.
* ??


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## pixmedic

Ysarex said:


> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe



I bought my last TWO cameras at a brick and mortar store.


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## rexbobcat

Gavjenks said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So? Why do I *want *brick and mortar to stay around? For cameras, they seem obsolete. Brick and mortar benefits are instant possession and ability to try stuff out. Which is great for purchasing meat or clothing. But for cameras, I don't have any reason to need one right now versus two days from now, and return policies are so good that trying out to test for defects is of minor importance.
> 
> And the brick and mortar charges at LEAST 25% more on everything where I am, and for smaller items, as much as 200-300% more. The exact same filter I was looking at the other day was $20 on Amazon, and $75 at my local camera store?? Why pay exorbitantly more for no apparent benefit?
> 
> So what's left to make me care?
> 
> * Jobs? Propping up obsolete technology for the sake of jobs is bad policy. Should we have avoided switching to lightbulbs indefinitely because we were worried about the candlemakers' jobs?
> * The environment? A fine argument if the brick and mortar store sells locally produced things, but not a valid argument when it's all coming from Japan either way, like cameras. It's using up 80 bazillion gallons of fuel versus 82 bazillion gallons of fuel.
> * Local taxes? The better solution to this is simply to pass a non-stupid sales tax law that requires online retailers to require local sales tax.
> * ??
Click to expand...


I hate waiting for little pieces like sync cords or tripod plates.

The store here also develops film a sells it. Convenience is nice


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## Gavjenks

Those are okay points. But neither seems like it requires a camera store to fit your needs. Small accessory items and film developing (for things more specialty than drug stores do) with a machine in the corner seem like things that could be much more efficiently handled by, for instance, one side of an aisle in your local Blick art store or Michael's craft store, and a spot behind the counter for a machine.  The guy who does frame matting already could also just do specialty developing, and hey! You even have a one stop shop now.


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## rexbobcat

Gavjenks said:


> Those are okay points. But neither seems like it requires a camera store to fit your needs. Small accessory items and film developing (for things more specialty than drug stores do) with a machine in the corner seem like things that could be much more efficiently handled by, for instance, one side of an aisle in your local Blick art store or Michael's craft store, and a spot behind the counter for a machine.  The guy who does frame matting already could also just do specialty developing, and hey! You even have a one stop shop now.



Hypothetically, yes, but I don't live in a metropolitan area and the camera store is the only place that sells, develops and prints film at larger sizes  than 4x6. 

My local craft stores (including Michael's) frame photo but don't develop or print them.

You were talking about wanting a camera store, not needing one. I could go without it, but I'd rather not.


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## Gavjenks

> My local craft stores (including Michael's) frame photo but don't develop or print them.


Neither do mine. What I'm suggesting is that if/when all the camera stores go under, stores like Blick and Michaels may very well START to offer these services.


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## rexbobcat

Gavjenks said:


> Neither do mine. What I'm suggesting is that if/when all the camera stores go under, stores like Blick and Michaels may very well START to offer these services.



You're still speaking in hypotheticals.

That doesn't diminish how nice it is that there is a camera store here in the current.    

They might offer it later, but they don't now, so I'm going to go use my local mom-pop camera store because it is still in business, they do offer those services, and it is convenient.


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## Steve5D

Ysarex said:


> Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.



Guilty...


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## Steve5D

In yesterday's St. Augustine Record, there was an article about Pensacola Photo Supply closing its doors. The article makes a point of mentioning that "one reason the long revered shop is having to close" is because of iPhones. PPS opened its doors in 1953, and it blames its demise on iPhones.

The article is three columns of describing how legions of area pros and students have shopped and worked there. Yet a telephone, apparently, is forcing them out of business. It's the first time I've heard of a telecommunications business putting a photography business _out _of business.

I don't buy it.

As with anything else, you adapt. As has been mentioned here, Calumet had a business model which couldn't be sustained. I have no doubt they're going to blame their demise on iPhones and the internet, but the truth is that they made a choice not to adapt to the changes in the marketplace and, in doing so, sealed their own fate.

Unfortunately, the article about PPS was mainly a collection of anecdotes from people who were either current or past employees or customers. Nothing about the "state of the market" was mentioned beyond the unsubstantiated contention that "everyone" having an iPhone is what's caused them to go out of business.

Calumet could've stayed in business, in some manner. They could've restructured how they do business, what they stock, where they operate, etc. But they chose not to do that.

Make no mistake, though, they'll blame it on someone else...


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## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> My local craft stores (including Michael's) frame photo but don't develop or print them.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither do mine. What I'm suggesting is that if/when all the camera stores go under, stores like Blick and Michaels may very well START to offer these services.
Click to expand...


Why on earth would they do that? So they can invest the time and money to train people to do it, and invest in the equipment to do it, so they would be able to serve the dozen or so people a month who _don't_ print their photos at Walgreen's or CVS? 

I'm sure there are sillier ideas. I just can't think of one at the moment...


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## Gavjenks

> Why on earth would they do that? So they can invest the time and money to train people to do it, and invest in the equipment to do it, so they would be able to serve the dozen or so people a month who _don't print their photos at Walgreen's or CVS?
> 
> I'm sure there are sillier ideas. I just can't think of one at the moment..._


So your argument is that it makes perfect sense to have an entire store location entirely devoted to photos for a dozen people a month who don't print at Walgreens or CVS... but it's totally ridiculous to have a single aisle and limited, mostly-automatic machines and training in a corner of a store for those same dozen people?

It's an obvious and natural progression, and I have no idea why you'd react so negatively to it other than just wanting to pick a fight:

*Lots of film shooters:* Dedicated stores, darkroom services, full range of accessories and cameras.
*Few but still commercially significantly many film shooters:* Part of a store, automated development services, only the most short-notice accessories (batteries and cords and things), few if any bodies or glass.
*Almost no film shooters: *Mail-order services only.

Duh. 

In fact, this already is starting to happen. See: The very Walgreens stores you attempted to bring up as a counter example (they are in fact a perfect example of what I'm saying), or Best Buy, where a large number of the people in this thread said they got their most recent camera. Limited selection of only the most short-term and common-needs accessories and most popular bodies and glass. And only part of the store / non-specialty. If/when large specialty camera stores fold, there will exist partial vacuums that are most logically filled by more things like Best Buy, partial store services. Then, over time, if interest keeps waning, those drop out of the picture too (no pun intended).




Same thing happened with my other example of candles vs. lightbulbs:
*Lots of candle users earlier:* Major industry, dedicated stores and manufacturers
*Few candle users now:* You mostly buy candles in a small dedicated section of a larger, non-specialty store. Or, if you want specialized, specific stuff, you mail-order.


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## charlie76

Gavjenks said:


> So? Why do I want brick and mortar to stay around?  .....  So what's left to make me care? ...



Guy...if you don't know by now I don't know what to tell ya. Your parents were supposed to teach you those lessons. It's kinda sad that you and others like you can't see the big picture...honestly.


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## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> So your argument is that it makes perfect sense to have an entire store location entirely devoted to photos for a dozen people a month who don't print at Walgreens or CVS... but it's totally ridiculous to have a single aisle and limited, mostly-automatic machines and training in a corner of a store for those same dozen people?



No, that's not what I've said at all. I never said it's a wise idea to have an entire store devoted to only print customers. 

You know, I notice you do this a lot; you lie about what people say, and you twist it to try to fit some ridiculous little point you're trying to make.

My point is that, at this point in time, it would be stupid for a craft store to get into the printing business, simply because the customer base would be grossly insufficient to justify the start-up costs of doing that. It would be stupid to start such an endeavor because the available customer base for that is already being served well elsewhere.

Outfits like Walgreen's and CVS have already invested the time and money in operating their print services. Their client base is comprised of people like my Mom, for instance, who goes in a couple of times a month and prints photos. If Michael's decides to jump into the print business, CVS and Walgreen's customers aren't going to start going to Michael's. Michael's is going to have to build a customer base. The problem is that the vast majority of people who use that type of service are already using it at another store. My Mom's been having her photos printed at the same CVS for over ten years. She knows everyone who works there, and they know her. I would be shocked if she was the only such customer.

The only people Michael's can hope to get as print customers are those who shop at Michael's for other things and who aren't already having their photos printed somewhere else. I'm not saying the CVS model is good, bad or otherwise. But I'm saying it exists, and a lot of people use it. Those people won't go to Michael's so, ergo, Micheal's getting into that business would be a stupid idea...


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## Gavjenks

charlie76 said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> 
> So? Why do I want brick and mortar to stay around?  .....  So what's left to make me care? ...
> 
> 
> 
> Guy...if you don't know by now I don't know what to tell ya. Your parents were supposed to teach you those lessons. It's kinda sad that you and others like you can't see the big picture...honestly.
Click to expand...

If you don't know what to tell me, then how exactly do you plan to teach your children when YOU are the parent?
Pretend you're my parent. Hit me with it. Why should I care?


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## Derrel

Remember how *totally frickin AWESOME* it was going to be for Amazon.com to sell groceries? MAN, that was such a great idea! The internet can do ANYTHING!


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## Gavjenks

@Steve: Sorry, you're right. No company has ever entered any new market, ever. Especially not when there was a surplus of new, unaffiliated customers left over from a major player in the industry suddenly folding who are now looking for someplace new to take their business. And ESPECIALLY not when those unaffiliated customers are used to their specialty luxuries and demand a service of a different artistic quality than any existing options.


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## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> It's an obvious and natural progression, and I have no idea why you'd react so negatively to it other than just wanting to pick a fight...



Actually the reason I'm reacting so negatively is because your spewing incorrect information as if you have an understanding of how these things actually work...


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## Gavjenks

Derrel said:


> Remember how *totally frickin AWESOME* it was going to be for Amazon.com to sell groceries? MAN, that was such a great idea! The internet can do ANYTHING!





			
				GavJenks said:
			
		

> So? Why do I want brick and mortar to stay around? For cameras, they seem obsolete. *Brick and mortar benefits are instant possession and ability to try stuff out. Which is great for purchasing meat or clothing.* But for cameras, I don't have any reason to need one right now versus two days from now, and return policies are so good that trying out to test for defects is of minor importance.


Groceries, particularly produce, fish, meat, etc., not only benefit from but almost require both of the benefits of brick and mortar that I observed originally. Cameras don't particularly. A little bit, but NOTHING in comparison to fresh groceries.



> Actually the reason I'm reacting so negatively is because your spewing incorrect information as if you have an understanding of how these things actually work...


How can a prediction be "incorrect" before the future comes around to prove it right or wrong? Answer: it can't. It can only be disagreed with, which is what you're doing, and that's just fine. We shall see.


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## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> @Steve: Sorry, you're right. No company has ever entered any new market, ever. Especially not when there was a surplus of new, unaffiliated customers left over from a major player in the industry suddenly folding who are now looking for someplace new to take their business. And ESPECIALLY not when those unaffiliated customers are used to their specialty luxuries and demand a service of a different artistic quality than any existing options.



Seriously?

LOL!!

Dude, you're makin' me chuckle.

You're taking the position that people who've shopped at Calumet will now, suddenly, start going to craft stores like Michael's if Michael's were to start doing prints. Sorry, but that's just not going to happen.

The bean-counters for a store like Michael's are smart enough to know that the investment they would make in personnel, materials and equipment would not realize a return sufficient enough to make it worth their while.

And why not? Because those who have shopped at Calumet will go to other camera-centric stores for their needs. They're not going to go to a craft store...


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## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> GavJenks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So? Why do I want brick and mortar to stay around? For cameras, they seem obsolete. *Brick and mortar benefits are instant possession and ability to try stuff out. Which is great for purchasing meat or clothing.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you need it for clothing? You can buy all kinds of clothing items online and, if they don't fit right or look good on you, you can return them. Do you HAVE to have a new pair of jeans right away?
Click to expand...


----------



## charlie76

Gavjenks said:


> If you don't know what to tell me, then how exactly do you plan to teach your children when YOU are the parent? Pretend you're my parent. Hit me with it. Why should I care?



If be happy to wake my 13 yr old up to get his insight on the importance of small business in a community for you...but he's got school and I gotta work. Good luck figuring it out for yourself, though.


----------



## Gavjenks

> Why would you need it for clothing? You can buy all kinds of clothing items online and, if they don't fit right or look good on you, you can return them. Do you HAVE to have a new pair of jeans right away?


You can, yes. And lots of people do. In my experience, the difference why clothing brick and mortar stores do better still though is that the rate of "doesn't fit" is vastly higher for clothing than for cameras, and no companies have so far technologically managed to bridge that gap for all types of clothing.

For tube socks? It's already bridged. Probably just as likely to work out if bought online as a camera, both 5% rate of failure to fit my needs for any item bought. And indeed, I buy tube socks online (unless I'm already in store for some other reason). For suits, however, the rate of failure of fit off the rack is like 80% for me, and for jeans, maybe 50%.

The difference between sending 5% of stuff back and sending 50% of stuff back is why I bother going to a clothing store and not a camera store.



> If be happy to wake my 13 yr old up to get his insight on the importance of small business in a community for you...but he's got school and I gotta work. Good luck figuring it out for yourself, though.


How much time are you planning to spend elaborating on how wise you are, when you could have just answered the damn question and proven it?

I'm legitimately asking for an explanation...


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> Doesn't make me right, just means nobody has a good explanation who has participated in the thread yet.



Sometimes it's enough for those who understand it to just laugh at those who don't...


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> How can a prediction be "incorrect" before the future comes around to prove it right or wrong? Answer: it can't. It can only be disagreed with, which is what you're doing, and that's just fine. We shall see.



I've spent a good portion of my adult life in both retail and manufacturer/wholesale environments.

You're some kinda' teacher, right?


----------



## Gavjenks

Anyway, still interested in productive, substantive answers to the question that's actually on track with the OP:

*Why do I want brick and mortar stores to stay around / care if they do?*


----------



## ratssass

[QUOTE

*Why do I want Gavjenks to stay around / care if they do?*[/QUOTE]
FIFY


----------



## Gavjenks

I don't need your patronage to stay around, while brick and mortar stores do


----------



## robbins.photo

Gavjenks said:


> charlie76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> 
> So? Why do I want brick and mortar to stay around?  .....  So what's left to make me care? ...
> 
> 
> 
> Guy...if you don't know by now I don't know what to tell ya. Your parents were supposed to teach you those lessons. It's kinda sad that you and others like you can't see the big picture...honestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you don't know what to tell me, then how exactly do you plan to teach your children when YOU are the parent?
Click to expand...


Well I found it was always best to start with the basics.  12½ lbs per square inch and you'll snap his knee like a twig.  Don't hit a man when he's down, kick him - It's a lot less work.  Whenever a boy says "I love you" you need to realize that promise expires generally within 24 hours, often less.  Whenever a politician says, "We need to do this for the children", you know your screwed.  Don't ever buy electronics from a guy selling out of his trunk.


----------



## Gavjenks

> Don't ever buy electronics from a guy selling out of his trunk.


What if his car is jacked up on some bricks held together with mortar?
On a related note, I swear to god the antique store where I occasionally do shop for lenses due to prices actually sells most of its photography equipment out of an old luggage trunk.


----------



## robbins.photo

Gavjenks said:


> Don't ever buy electronics from a guy selling out of his trunk.
> 
> 
> 
> What if his car is jacked up on some bricks held together with mortar?
> On a related note, I swear to god the antique store where I occasionally do shop for lenses due to prices actually sells most of its photography equipment out of an old luggage trunk.
Click to expand...


Well actually I was going for an elephant joke there and missed.   Lol

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> Anyway, still interested in productive, substantive answers to the question that's actually on track with the OP:
> 
> *Why do I want brick and mortar stores to stay around / care if they do?*



You're not interested in any such answer; you've made that pretty clear. But, what the Hell, I'll give it a shot. I will add, though, that I expect you to completely dismiss this answer, regardless of the fact that you won't be ale to offer a counter argument.

The answer to your question actually extends far beyond any one industry.

Vibrant local business are essential for a healthy community. They generate revenue in the form of taxes paid to the local municipality, which goes to pay for things like fire and police protection and schools. When stores go away, that revenue goes away. Schools start to decline in quality, because they don't have the money to keep quality teachers or buy supplies. Without supplies and quality teachers, kids start not caring about school, and start cutting school. They start hanging out in front of what used to be healthy, vibrant businesses. Without their time being occupied at school, and being kids, they start getting into trouble. They start vandalizing those vacant stores. They start engaging in criminal activity.

Now, once a neighborhood gets a bad reputation, people stop looking to buy or rent homes in that neighborhood, and the available market will sit largely vacant. This leads to a further decline in revenue and tax base. Before long, you no longer have a neighborhood, you have a war zone. The houses that are vacated will, eventually, fall into states of decline through vandalism and neglect. No one will will want to rent them, no one will want to buy them, and no one will want to invest the money to fix up the properties that they won't be able to sell.

Like it or not, one thing is undeniable: People who don't see a value in brick & mortar stores; people like you, aid in the decline...


----------



## Derrel

Steve5D said:
			
		

> SNIP> Schools start to decline in quality, because they don't have the money to keep quality teachers or buy supplies. Without supplies and quality teachers, kids start not caring about school, and start cutting school. They start hanging out in front of what used to be healthy, vibrant businesses. Without their time being occupied at school, and being kids, they start getting into trouble. They start vandalizing those vacant stores. They start engaging in criminal activity.
> 
> Now, once a neighborhood gets a bad reputation, people stop looking to buy or rent homes in that neighborhood, and the available market will sit largely vacant. This leads to a further decline in revenue and tax base. Before long, you no longer have a neighborhood, you have a war zone. The houses that are vacated will, eventually, fall into states of decline through vandalism and neglect. No one will will want to rent them, no one will want to buy them, and no one will want to invest the money to fix up the properties that they won't be able to sell.



Detroit&#39;s deadliest neighborhood | The Detroit News


----------



## Gavjenks

> They generate revenue in the form of taxes paid to the local municipality


I don't dispute the chain reaction you describe, Steve, but it does all boil down to this one point. Which means that the extent to which the city gets more taxes with or without me shopping at an overpriced, obsolete photo store = the benefit or the damage to my city, yes?

*Income Tax:* Iowa City doesn't have any income tax.

*Sales Tax:* Iowa City has a small sales tax. I have to pay it to Iowa City regardless of whether I buy online or in brick and mortar, so I'm not immediately depriving my city of any tax income here. Even if they completely go out of business, Iowa City still gets my photography gear sales tax dollars. So they're no worse off, and probably, they will be better off, because it would likely be replaced with a bar, coffee shop, or restaurant, right across the street from my lab downtown in prime real estate, which are more relevant to the community and would almost certainly turn a lot more business than the dinosaur photography shop (especially one that goes out of business...) = more sales tax, including from me (I'd be buying beer/coffee/food in _addition _to the money I'd still be spending on cameras online. And since it's right across from me, I'd probably be tempted to eat there instead of cooking cheaply at home more often, too).

Also photography gear in general are luxury goods, and money people save on them is likely to just be spent on other luxuries, not buried under a mattress. If I spend $200 on a lens instead of $300, I'm going to spend the remaining $100 on a fancy dinner and night on the town with my partner or something, instead. Iowa City doesn't care either way, it's the same to them.

*Property Tax:* There is about a 4% commercial property tax. This gets paid the same to the city regardless of who runs what business there and/or how well they do. It only doesn't get paid if the property is flat out abandoned. Which that prime spot _never _would be, smack dab downtown. 

"But maybe it would just offset some other abandoned property further out, where that new coffee shop / bar / restaurant would have been otherwise!" you say.
1) Not necessarily, because a ton of people don't have cars here, and the population is also not very uniformly spread, so more likely, the business wouldn't come to town at all if not for a vacant spot downtown. To a very real extent, the photo shop is using up a limited land resoure that could probably be much more efficiently generating local revenue.
2) It's a university town. And I've interviewed a lot of prospective students here. Guess what? Nobody has asked about photo stores when deciding whether to come here. To the extent they ask about businesses, they ask about bars, clubs, restaurants, coffee shops, theater, live music venues, etc. (and they experience only those things when we entertain them during interview weekends, too). _All things that are immune to online competition, mind you._ So the replacement would probably draw more citizens to town than the photography shop would. In addition to making more sales tax dollars.





*TL;DR:* In this case, it's not a question of "camera shop vs. empty lot."  It's a question of "obsolete shop that isn't very relevant to the current community here vs. replacement business taking its place that IS relevant to the community." The replacement business would almost certainly make more sales tax dollars AND draw more citizens.


----------



## robbins.photo

See, and here I was voted "Most likely to start the next apocalypse" in high school.  Huh.   Well I tip my chapeau to you there Gav.  Good show old bean, good show...

Lol


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> I don't dispute the chain reaction you describe, Steve...



That's a funny thing to say as the first comment in a post as long as your response was.

The fact is that you can't dispute it. You talk about "replacement" businesses. Well, at some point, the customers for _those _businesses will be as short-sighted as you are, and will decide they don't need that business. Then another replacement business comes in, and then another. Before long, the "replacement businesses" stop coming because there's a track record of business failures in that area.

You've made it pretty clear that you're not concerned with anyone with but yourself and anything beyond your own little world. I hope, for the health of the city in which you live that you're in the minority...


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> 1) Not necessarily, because a ton of people don't have cars here, and the population is also not very uniformly spread, so more likely, the business wouldn't come to town at all if not for a vacant spot downtown.



And what you're intent on not acknowledging is that, at some point, the businesses will stop coming to town...



> To a very real extent, the photo shop is using up a limited land resoure that could probably be much more efficiently generating local revenue.



You just got done talking about how the amount generated for the local municipality is the same regardless of the type of business. "Efficiency", insofar as tax revenue is concerned, isn't an issue. It's either getting paid or it isn't...



> 2) It's a university town. And I've interviewed a lot of prospective students here. Guess what? Nobody has asked about photo stores when deciding whether to come here. To the extent they ask about businesses, they ask about bars, clubs, restaurants, coffee shops, theater, live music venues, etc. (and they experience only those things when we entertain them during interview weekends, too). _All things that are immune to online competition, mind you._ So the replacement would probably draw more citizens to town than the photography shop would. In addition to making more sales tax dollars.



So the only businesses which can be viable are those which have no online competition?

LOLOL!!! How silly.

Of course they ask about that stuff. They're college kids. Things like coffee shops, live music venues and bars are social hubs, and college is, to a very large extent, a social environment. But the fatal mistake you're making is in concluding that, because someone doesn't ask about a particular type of business, they're not interested in it. 

That's a silly conclusion to make...


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> On a related note, I swear to god the antique store where I occasionally do shop for lenses due to prices actually sells most of its photography equipment out of an old luggage trunk.



So you prefer to buy camera equipment from an antique store instead of a camera store?


----------



## charlie76

Ok, Im outta work, are we ready to rumble???


----------



## robbins.photo

charlie76 said:


> Ok, Im outta work, are we ready to rumble???



Well I brought my shiv.  And a really nice cozy I made for it.  It's cold out there you know.. lol


----------



## charlie76

Edit:  I'm just a dick...can't help it


----------



## Gavjenks

> The fact is that you can't dispute it. You talk about "replacement" businesses. Well, at some point, the customers for those businesses will be as short-sighted as you are, and will decide they don't need that business. Then another replacement business comes in, and then another. Before long, the "replacement businesses" stop coming because there's a track record of business failures in that area.


Please explain how somebody could bypass the services of a coffee shop (food service, space to work out of the house, neutral social meeting location) by using online commerce??

You are assuming my logic applies to just all businesses, but it *doesn't.* It ONLY applies to retail businesses, and even then only ones that sell things that are very likely to work sight-unseen, are compact, are things I don't need ever on an immediate basis, and are easy to return for replacements when occasionally necessary.

That's a pretty short list. Probably describes *10% of the businesses in my town, at most*. Which means that you don't actually get a situation where business after business fails in the same location. Because the vast majority of the time, the replacement business is going to be one of the 90% that are much more competitive with online commerce, and... the end. It works out fine and flourishes. No repeated failure. Instead, the town simply rapidly filters out the obsolete businesses and retains the relevant ones.



> You've made it pretty clear that you're not concerned with anyone with but yourself and anything beyond your own little world. I hope, for the health of the city in which you live that you're in the minority...


On the contrary, an obsolete, less-relevant business to the community being replaced with one that's very relevant and compatible with the pressures of the internet (which isn't gonna get any less important, obviously) makes the town healthier and wealthier. Certain kinds of retail are simply becoming technologically obsolete for the mainstream. Just like carriage builders and candlemakers and armor smiths and ferriers. Propping them afloat artificially and helping them inefficiently take up space that could be used by a more modern-adapted business doesn't help me or my town.

Would you find excuses to patronize a typewriter repair shop just for the sake of patronizing them? No. Same deal.



> You just got done talking about how the amount generated for the local municipality is the same regardless of the type of business. "Efficiency", insofar as tax revenue is concerned, isn't an issue. It's either getting paid or it isn't...


I was talking about sales tax again.



> So you prefer to buy camera equipment from an antique store instead of a camera store?


Uh, yeah...
Antique store: usually about *50% discount* compared to online
Camera store: usually about *100% markup* compared to online

Antique stores are actually a great example of one of the MANY types of brick and mortar retail businesses that are actually quite competitive with online commerce (along with furniture, groceries, clothing, pharmacies, etc.). Ebay is for infinite selection, but rarely any fantastic deals. Brick and mortar antique stores have esoteric and limited selection, but great deals. And the division of labor works particularly well, because a lot of the time when you want to go antiquing (including for fun old manual lenses), you don't even have a particular thing in mind, while other times, you are looking for one particular extraordinarily rare little piece of something, so I have reason to take advantage of each place's specialty on different occasions.

By contrast, the camera store offers less selection AND higher prices, and limited utility of being able to inspect things in person. So it doesn't function as a specialization. It's just plain worse for everything.  Yeah, they develop more kinds of film. And I can buy developer there a couple dollars more cheaply. That's about it--not enough to justify a whole storefront.


----------



## kathyt

charlie76 said:


> Edit:  I'm just a dick...can't help it


This is my kinda guy!


----------



## charlie76

Gav (Gavin?)...it seems like you are slowly and tactfully backing off of your position of thinking the mom-and-pop stores should be put out of business by the Wallmarts of this world because...you can get a better deal at the big boxers?  I'd like to thoroughly read though you thousands of words...but I only had time to skim.  If you could sum up your moral position without talking about the income tax in Iowa, I'd love to hear it.  

Honestly...if you could teach me something about how the world would be better with large companies owning everything I would love to hear it.  I certainly think I know everything, but I generally pride myself on being an openminded person.


----------



## charlie76

Damn...I'll have argue with my dog, I suppose


----------



## Gavjenks

I didn't mention big box stores in this thread, charlie. (Well, I did mention Best Buy in passing, but didn't say I think it's good or bad). Nor did I say anything about large companies vs. small.

I'm only talking about internet (large or small) vs. brick and mortar (large or small). Summary:

1) Certain businesses are simply becoming obsolete due to the increasing technology of the internet. Specifically, businesses (small or large) that sell the following types of things:
* Retail goods that can be provided remotely (massage parlors, coffee shops, etc. obviously can't be done online, for instance)
* Non perishable things (unlike groceries)
* Things that don't have specific sizes that are tricky to fit precisely (unlike jeans) or that otherwise need to be inspected in person.
* Things that are compact enough to ship economically (huge furniture is usually cheaper through local businesses that ship lots of it in together efficiently in large trucks)
* Things that you generally don't need immediately on short notice (antibiotics are not a great online business commodity)

2) Propping up obsolete businesses isn't good for the consumer (expensive, no significant benefit to him/her) and isn't good for the community (it could be replaced by a less obsolete store that would generate more business and tax dollars and immigrants, etc. since it wouldn't just be relying on sympathy business)





That's it. Camera stores qualify under all the above bullet points, and are thus becoming obsolete. Just like typewriter repair shops or candlemakers. So it's not really "good for the community" to prop them up at the expense of some other more modern business that competes with the internet better. Anymore than it would be good for the community to prop up a typewriter repair shop just to stop it going out of business, even though nobody needs it.


----------



## charlie76

True, of course, they are becoming obsolete.  That is certainly not debatable, technology and modern communication is certainly giving access to sweet cheap gear (of course, at this point we aren't talking about cameras, but the application to capitalism gone awry), an the general public has benefitted from in many obvious ways, I must yield to that.

Just saying bud, I would rather live next door to the owner of a camera store than the manager or a Walllgreens camera department.  Right????


----------



## Gavjenks

A perfect example of a NON-mom and pop store, by the way, that was also thoroughly destroyed by technological obsolescence... is Blockbuster. So it does indeed affect large and small companies.
Also, Tower Records.
Also, Borders.

Words and sounds and images are all (almost) completely transferable by digital data. And even if you prefer physical books or CDs or whatever, those things are identical copies of one another and are compact and easy to ship. So once data transfer became cheap enough, and online shopping refined, storefront versions of these things didn't make as much sense anymore. Book stores a little bit still, but heavily downsized. It is a GOOD thing for economies national and local that Blockbuster went out of business when it was no longer relevant. And was replaced by other stuff that makes sense in a modern world.



> Just saying bud, I would rather live next door to the owner of a camera store than the manager or a Walllgreens camera department. Right????


The fact that camera stores in particular HAPPEN to be most often replaced by Big Box store departments, is just sort of coincidental / specific to this one example. Not everything obsolete is replaced by something larger or more evil or whatever.  Using one of the above examples, Tower records giving way to internet-dispensed music actually significantly stimulates more indie bands to be able to survive than before. More and more so over time.


----------



## charlie76

Ok..I gotcha on the new tech making old tech obsolete.  I think that comparing eBooks to paper books doesn't really relate.  Saying that an eBook is the same as Borders..or whatever...is fine.   But has zero relevance to the comparison of mom-and-pop stores and Walmart.  I agree that the mom and pops should start selling eBooks....because that's where we are moving, as you have  pointed out.


----------



## charlie76

I've combed over your words bud, trying to find some sympathy to the small working man.  You are right on in you  perspective of tech and how we use it and the pros/cons of (prematurely) applying it to us....but I kinda fee like you are missing something....the human perspective perhaps.    

I don't know if you have noticed, but there is a flaw in capitalism.  When too much money gets together, and we become too "efficient"  or perhaps "economical" a variable in the equation approaches zero.  The human element becomes irreverent and we become food rather than the beneficiaries......gotta pay attention to that buddy.....because the inevitable outcome is them owing it all an we own nothing!!!!


----------



## Gavjenks

I think we are on the same page.

I definitely support small business just to promote a more humanist and varied and interesting (and sometimes more moral) existence. I patronize mom and pop shops over large ones when the price differences are small. Or even when the price differences are moderate or large, but the moral differences are MASSIVE (like Walmart).

I just simply haven't been focusing on that issue here, because I think it's an entirely separate concept from internet vs. brick and mortar. You can have any combination of internet/brick vs. mom-and-pop/chain. For example, if your local store is a Ritz, and you shop online at Adorama instead, you are actually supporting non-chain over chain, at the same time that you're favoring internet over brick and mortar!
Internet =/= Big Box, and
Brick and Mortar =/= mom and pop


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> Please explain how somebody could bypass the services of a coffee shop (food service, space to work out of the house, neutral social meeting location) by using online commerce??



Is there an established coffee shop already in town?

Probably a risky proposition to open another if a business closes down right next store...



> You are assuming my logic applies to just all businesses, but it *doesn't.*



Honestly, I'm not assuming your logic applies to anything...



> Would you find excuses to patronize a typewriter repair shop just for the sake of patronizing them? No. Same deal.



If I owned a typewriter, sure I would.

I sure as Hell wouldn't ship it off somewhere to be fixed...


----------



## charlie76

Gavjenks said:


> I think we are on the same page.  I definitely support small business just to promote a more humanist and varied and interesting (and sometimes more moral) existence. I patronize mom and pop shops over large ones when the price differences are small. Or even when the price differences are moderate or large, but the moral differences are MASSIVE (like Walmart).  I just simply haven't been focusing on that issue here, because I think it's an entirely separate concept from internet vs. brick and mortar. You can have any combination of internet/brick vs. mom-and-pop/chain. For example, if your local store is a Ritz, and you shop online at Adorama instead, you are actually supporting non-chain over chain, at the same time that you're favoring internet over brick and mortar! Internet =/= Big Box, and Brick and Mortar =/= mom and pop



Right on....I'll pay ten extra bucks anytime if it means the revenue stays in my town to feed the kids of the owner of the store which I am a patron.  I'm glad we are on the same page.  I think you and Steve are arguing about the details.  I totally approve of your acknowledgement of the "MASSIVE" moral differences....I like the phrase, bud. That is certainly the main issue here, and certainly why myself and others jumped on this thread.  I think we all feel abused/used by this modern contorted capitalist system.


----------



## Gavjenks

> If I owned a typewriter, sure I would.
> I sure as Hell wouldn't ship it off somewhere to be fixed...


The point is that you don't own a typewriter. The businesses don't really exist anymore as brick and mortar, because the machines are too obsolete to maintain a local customer base.

Anyway, a better and more direct analogy is the one I mentioned later: Blockbuster. Better analogy, because unlike typewriters, *movies *aren't obsolete (just like cameras aren't), but the *stores *are (just like camera stores). If there were a Blockbuster in town, would you still put your boots and coat on and warm up your car in the middle of winter (I know you're in Florida. Just imagine for a moment) and go drive out and pay $5 to rent each movie, instead of sitting at home under a blanket and paying $2 (or even less if you subscribe to a service) to stream it right to your TV? PURELY to support local business?

Maybe you would. But you would be an oddball. I don't know a single person who did, in fact, make that exact decision a decade or so ago when it was relevant. And that was fine. It was good, it was growth and progress. Our economy didn't crumble. Our towns weren't replaced by burnt-out cars and weed lots because we stopped shopping at Blockbuster. It was in fact a healthy and inevitable transition.

And *unlike *Walmart replacing the corner grocery store, it's pretty hard to argue that Netflix and Hulu and Amazon instant video, etc. are somehow significantly more evil or detrimental to anybody than Blockbuster.


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> The point is that you don't own a typewriter. The businesses don't really exist anymore as brick and mortar...



Actually, I do. I bought it at a yard sale for $1.00. It didn't work.

It's currently at this local repair shop being fixed: Riley's

LOL!!


----------



## Gavjenks

> It's currently at this local repair shop being fixed: Riley's


That's not a typewriter repair shop. It's a typewriter and modern electronic copier machine repair shop, and a modern used electronic copier retail shop.
And just how much of a priority Mr. Riley places on typewriters is made pretty clear by the fact that he doesn't even mention the word "typewriter" anywhere on the home page :roll:

Selling and maintaining electronic copiers locally is obviously not an obsolete business model. They are relevant (almost every office has one), and they are huge and heavy and stupid to ship (see bullet point #4 on my list above of characteristics of businesses that are obsolete to the internet)


----------



## Steve5D

Right.

They're repairing my typewriter.

It's a typewriter repair shop.

Yet, oddly, you say they don't exist.

_Not _oddly, you're incorrect...


----------



## Gavjenks

> They're repairing my typewriter.
> It's a typewriter repair shop.


Uh huh... And Home Depot is a candy shop because they sell M&Ms at the checkout line.

Charlie was actually being very reasonable and not just punching walls for the sake of punching walls, and we already worked out what the important and informative and thought-provoking points and misconceptions in the discussion were. I don't think there's anything else interesting that's going to come out of this from here on out. I'm gonna check out at this point, I'm afraid.


----------



## Steve5D

Gavjenks said:


> They're repairing my typewriter.
> It's a typewriter repair shop.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh huh... And Home Depot is a candy shop because they sell M&Ms at the checkout line.
> 
> Charlie was actually being very reasonable and not just punching walls for the sake of punching walls, and we already worked out what the important and informative and thought-provoking points and misconceptions in the discussion were. I don't think there's anything else interesting that's going to come out of this from here on out. I'm gonna check out at this point, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...


They advertise that they repair typewriters. They're a typewriter repair shop. I don't recall ever seeing Home Depot advertise their M&M selection.

This evening is actually the first time I've seen their website. I found them through a local circular in which they advertised "TYPEWRITER REPAIRS", so what's on their website homepage was completely meaningless to me...


----------



## unpopular

rexbobcat said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Internet is killing brick and mortar camera stores. Raise your hand if you bought your last camera from a walkin camera store.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So? Why do I *want *brick and mortar to stay around? For cameras, they seem obsolete. Brick and mortar benefits are instant possession and ability to try stuff out. Which is great for purchasing meat or clothing. But for cameras, I don't have any reason to need one right now versus two days from now, and return policies are so good that trying out to test for defects is of minor importance.
> 
> And the brick and mortar charges at LEAST 25% more on everything where I am, and for smaller items, as much as 200-300% more. The exact same filter I was looking at the other day was $20 on Amazon, and $75 at my local camera store?? Why pay exorbitantly more for no apparent benefit?
> 
> So what's left to make me care?
> 
> * Jobs? Propping up obsolete technology for the sake of jobs is bad policy. Should we have avoided switching to lightbulbs indefinitely because we were worried about the candlemakers' jobs?
> * The environment? A fine argument if the brick and mortar store sells locally produced things, but not a valid argument when it's all coming from Japan either way, like cameras. It's using up 80 bazillion gallons of fuel versus 82 bazillion gallons of fuel.
> * Local taxes? The better solution to this is simply to pass a non-stupid sales tax law that requires online retailers to require local sales tax.
> * ??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hate waiting for little pieces like sync cords or tripod plates.
> 
> The store here also develops film a sells it. Convenience is nice
Click to expand...


As an amateur, I will gladly wait four weeks for a $3.00 sync cord to arrive from China, than having to pay $25 for the exact same cord from the exact same factory from Mom and Pop. Buying local is a nice sentiment, but I'm hardly obligated, especially when the price differences are so significant.


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## photofree

About a year ago when my flash meter quit while being tested, the night before a big job, only mom and pop could save me. And the cost while higher was just a bit more than overnight shipping would have sent the cost anyway. And overnight was not fast enough. There will always be a place for a decent camera shop. If you ask for a flash meter at a big box store, the sullen kid will just stare at you waiting for you to tell him/her what that is. Then him/her would tell you they don't have it. Because looking or asking would be too much work.

profound thinking about stuff


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## unpopular

^^ well, they might have it, but the kid wouldn't necessarily know that they have it. I've pretty much given up asking the clerks at Wal-Mart. Chances are they have what I'm looking for even when they firmly say that they don't.


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## LebronPhoto

The biggest expenses brick and mortar businesses have are  space and people.  Online businesses cover more territory with less people and less space.  They can offer cheaper prices on accessories (camera prices don't vary much across the board).  

The one thing camera specialty stores brought to the table was knowledge.  With today's online resources and easy to use cameras, the need for that knowledge at store level has decreased, so people just look for price and availability. 

Brick and mortar will survive, but in the supermarket, convenience, and other stores where waiting for days to get product is not practical. 



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## Steve5D

LebronPhoto said:


> Online businesses cover more territory with less people and less space.



I'm pretty sure any single Amazon warehouse is bigger than any single brick & mortar you'll find...


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## LebronPhoto

But their warehouses combined don't match the consolidated warehouse and store sales floor and back rooms of the many chains, never mind the employees.  I'm a retailer that operates 2 eCommerce sites and 11 brick and mortar stores.   My eCommerce sites operate with two employees and order fulfillment direct from the supplier.   I don't stock anything for eCommerce.  My stores have 32 employees and 2.3 million in merchandise.   I can easily compare both types of businesses. 


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## unpopular

Steve5D said:


> LebronPhoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Online businesses cover more territory with less people and less space.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure any single Amazon warehouse is bigger than any single brick & mortar you'll find...
Click to expand...


That's a pretty silly comparison. A warehouse does not have to cater to customer's comfort and safety, it does not have to take up floorspace for displays, registers or an open and inviting area to serve as it's lobby. As a result every square foot contains far more product.


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## Steve5D

unpopular said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LebronPhoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Online businesses cover more territory with less people and less space.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure any single Amazon warehouse is bigger than any single brick & mortar you'll find...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's a pretty silly comparison. A warehouse does not have to cater to customer's comfort and safety, it does not have to take up floorspace for displays, registers or an open and inviting area to serve as it's lobby. As a result every square foot contains far more product.
Click to expand...


It's not silly at all.

The statement was made that online dealers do more with less space. With what I know of online retailers, almost without exception, that it simply not true. It's just that their "space" is _warehouse _space as opposed to sales floor space. I simply chose the most obvious example: Amazon...


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## Steve5D

LebronPhoto said:


> But their warehouses combined don't match the consolidated warehouse and store sales floor and back rooms of the many chains, never mind the employees.  I'm a retailer that operates 2 eCommerce sites and 11 brick and mortar stores.   My eCommerce sites operate with two employees and order fulfillment direct from the supplier.   I don't stock anything for eCommerce.  My stores have 32 employees and 2.3 million in merchandise.   I can easily compare both types of businesses.



If you're combining every brick & mortar in the world, sure. But that's like saying that the San Francisco 49'ers can't beat high school football players, and then saying they can't beat a team comprised of every single high school player in the country. It's kinda' silly...


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## LebronPhoto

No.  What I'm saying is that an online photo store, like B&H, would compete with the entire Ritz Camera chain, even though Ritz camera had stores and combined square footage exceeding B&H Photos.   That said, my original premise is about the cost of doing business.  That one single B&H photo location costs less to operate than all of the Ritz camera locations (before they closed).  ECommerce retailers have lower expenses.  That's the bottom line. 


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## snowbear

Interesting . . . There's a rumor (Petapixel) that a few stores in the US may reopen.  I just got the "Store Closing" sale ad.  It says "closing these locations only" but doesn't list the downtown DC store.

I might need to swing by 840 E street NW and see if the building is empty.


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