# Simple Simple Simple



## Kimberly81 (Jul 25, 2008)

photos removed


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## dab_20 (Jul 25, 2008)

You definitely have a gorgeous little girl. She looks so old with all the lip gloss on, if that's what your going for, thats okay. Love the first one... just a tiny bit over exposed in certain areas. Try to leave a little more room at the top of her head so not to cut it off. Second one is really nice. Third is too overexposed for my taste but not bad at all. Good job, keep it up. She's a great little model.


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 25, 2008)

dab_20 said:


> You definitely have a gorgeous little girl. She looks so old with all the lip gloss on, if that's what your going for, thats okay. Love the first one... just a tiny bit over exposed in certain areas. Try to leave a little more room at the top of her head so not to cut it off. Second one is really nice. Third is too overexposed for my taste but not bad at all. Good job, keep it up. She's a great little model.


Thanks so much! Dry lips in photos are a huge pet peeve of mine lol.  Clear lipgloss is my best friend hehe Thanks for the comments and advice


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## tirediron (Jul 26, 2008)

I think dab's comments are right on the money. Well done, as usual, with just minor niggles. You're very lucky to have a subject who is so easy to work with. I'm curious however (and please don't take this the wrong way) to see what your talents could do with someone else, especially someone is not quite so camera friendly.


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 26, 2008)

tirediron said:


> I think dab's comments are right on the money. Well done, as usual, with just minor niggles. You're very lucky to have a subject who is so easy to work with. I'm curious however (and please don't take this the wrong way) to see what your talents could do with someone else, especially someone is not quite so camera friendly.



I just made a thread of some photos I took of Abby:
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1325910#post1325910


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## Early (Jul 26, 2008)

The photography is nice, but in my very humble opinion, there is just too much make up, and too much editing.  The girl looks plastic, as if she's dressed for an adult role in a play.


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 26, 2008)

Early said:


> The photography is nice, but in my very humble opinion, there is just too much make up, and too much editing.  The girl looks plastic, as if she's dressed for an adult role in a play.



I wanted to make a note. I know a few have commented on her makeup and I wanted to clarify what she has on. When I shoot her I always put some mascara on to bring out her lashes, clear lipgloss to avoid a chapped look, and translucent powder to eliminate the potential of facial shine. I like a nice fresh looking face for photos 

I would also like to add that all I do to my photos is color correction, hue saturation, and brightness and contrast.  I will post some candid photos of her that I took with a lessor camera so everyone can see this is what she looks like. She models for an agency in the KC area so yes this is what she looks like.


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## NJMAN (Jul 26, 2008)

For what its worth...

1) The makeup is overdone for outdoor portraits, IMO.  I would have expected a little more natural look for being outdoors, and at that age.  Studio portraits would be a different matter.
2) The white balance is noticably off in #2.  The face is red and underexposed.  When posting a series of the same subject, it is very important to keep white balance consistent.
3) Posting at 1200 pixels is pretty large.  You might try resizing to 800 px or less on the long side. 

Pretty model.  She's a natural and obviously comfortable with you taking the pictures.


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## MarcusM (Jul 26, 2008)

Nice exposures, other than slight overexposure on #1. #2 is my favorite. But agreed about the makeup - the photos have the feel of someone trying to make her look more mature and more beautiful - as has been said it's too much especially since she's just a little girl - it gives to an artificial feel. She's obviously beautiful without the makeup, it's just unnecessary IMO.


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 26, 2008)

dab_20 said:


> She looks so old with all the lip gloss on, if that's what your going for, thats okay.





Early said:


> The photography is nice, but in my very humble opinion, there is just too much make up, and too much editing.  The girl looks plastic, as if she's dressed for an adult role in a play.





NJMAN said:


> For what its worth...
> 
> 1) The makeup is overdone for outdoor portraits, IMO.  I would have expected a little more natural look for being outdoors, and at that age.  Studio portraits would be a different matter.





MarcusM said:


> But agreed about the makeup - the photos have the feel of someone trying to make her look more mature and more beautiful - as has been said it's too much especially since she's just a little girl - it gives to an artificial feel. She's obviously beautiful without the makeup, it's just unnecessary IMO.



Ok guys seriously, I can't take this anymore.  My daughter just has a mature look to her, I hear it all the time, I can't help that.  Other than a dab of mascara and some clear lip gloss these photos are just her being gorgeous, she looks like this on an every day basis.  If someone wants to critique my photo skills or the subjects photogenic ability that is great, but can we please lay off the "too much makeup" comments because they are simply untrue and I have grown tired of them.  Sorry to be snippy, but I know what my daughter looks like, and other than much better lighting, she looks just like this indoors, every day, on the street, with brushed hair and a clean face.


Photo A: Candid shot I just took with unbrushed hair                     and bad lighting.

                                                                           Photo B: the same girl with brushed hair, a nice breeze, better lighting, a tripod, some mascara and clear  lipgloss:


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## LynziMarie (Jul 26, 2008)

I always like your photos of your beautiful little girl!!!  They're always really wonderful!

I don't think there is anything wrong putting (read: a little) a little makeup on her... 
  I'm around little kids all the time at dance recitals... and let me tell you... THAT'S when it's too much... Mascara and lip gloss is nothing.  How old is she?
I bet she LOVES getting that little bit done and going out and being a model for her mom.  Don't let it get to ya.... It's a real concern these days with so many young girls trying to grow up too fast.  It becomes a big BAD situation.


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## MarcusM (Jul 27, 2008)

Kimberly81 said:


> Ok guys seriously, I can't take this anymore.



Well then don't ask for critiques.

Obviously it must look to a lot of people like she has a lot of makeup on, otherwise you wouldn't get so many comments about it.

You're getting upset for people's impressions of your photos after you ask for critiques?

To me she looks like some of those girls you see whose parents enter them into beauty pageants - all done up. It looks like either a lot of makeup or a combination of makeup and too much post processing, either way, too artificial-looking IMO.

Photo A above looks like she still has makeup on, but waaaay less than Photo B and the other shots in this thread. So I'd be curious to see a photo of her with absolutely no makeup whatsoever posted right next to one of these photos in this thread. Maybe that will help put an end to the makeup comments?


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 27, 2008)

LynziMarie said:


> I always like your photos of your beautiful little girl!!!  They're always really wonderful!
> 
> I don't think there is anything wrong putting (read: a little) a little makeup on her...
> I'm around little kids all the time at dance recitals... and let me tell you... THAT'S when it's too much... Mascara and lip gloss is nothing.  How old is she?
> I bet she LOVES getting that little bit done and going out and being a model for her mom.  Don't let it get to ya.... It's a real concern these days with so many young girls trying to grow up too fast.  It becomes a big BAD situation.



Thank you, YOU seem to get the idea.



MarcusM said:


> Well then don't ask for critiques.
> 
> Obviously it must look to a lot of people like she has a lot of makeup on, otherwise you wouldn't get so many comments about it.
> 
> ...



SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO MAKEUP ON IN PHOTO A! She was ready for bed so give me a break! That was the whole point of me posting that comparrison.  I took that photo right before I posted them together.

And for your information, I ask for C&C on my PHOTOGRAPHIC skills, NOT whether or not my kid has a face full of makeup on.  You wanna give me photographic advice please feel free, but I have had it with the issue of makeup or no makeup.  I will not keep repeating myself on this issue.

Thanks


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## tirediron (Jul 27, 2008)

Kimberly81 said:


> Ok guys seriously, I can't take this anymore.


 

You've asked for the critique, we've provided.  When you get a significant majority of responders saying essentially the same thing, it might be time to consider that there's some validity to there comments.
My opinion is that you have two gifts which are in danger of being wasted.  They are (1) Your daughter who is both pretty and camera-friendly, and (2) your talent for photography.  Most of your pictures, while very good, have a marked sameness to them  Why not try a session where she's at the playground with friends, or helping to wash the family car?  Something different than the 'daughter as a pretty model'?  I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I believe you've taken that discipline about as far as it can go. 

As I've said in several recent posts regarding your work, I think you need to branch out.  It can't hurt to try, right?

Just my $00.02 worth - your milage may vary.

~John


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## Kimberly81 (Jul 28, 2008)

You've asked for the critique, we've provided.  When you get a significant majority of responders saying essentially the same thing, it might be time to consider that there's some validity to there comments.

*There is little to no validity to comments pertaining to my daughter being "all made up" as I have posted candid proof of what my daughter looks like right before bedtime.*

My opinion is that you have two gifts which are in danger of being wasted.  They are (1) Your daughter who is both pretty and camera-friendly, and (2) your talent for photography.  Most of your pictures, while very good, have a marked sameness to them  Why not try a session where she's at the playground with friends, or helping to wash the family car?  Something different than the 'daughter as a pretty model'?  I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I believe you've taken that discipline about as far as it can go. 
*
I am trying to master portraiture as this is what I want to specialize in.  I have only had my camera for about 3 weeks and I am more concerned with getting certain techniques right at the moment.  I am still learning my camera and am still unsure of what at least half of the settings do.  My photos are not intended to charge a debate on the cosmetics or lack there of contained within them on my subject, which so happens to be the only subject readily available to me at this moment.  I have been nothing but nice and receptive to critique since I joined this site, but I will not sit here and tolerate people saying my daughter has a face full of makeup or that I am making her look "plastic" with over processing because it is UNTRUE.  I will never get defensive over genuine critiques, but, if people have no clue what they are looking at, they need not post a critique or comment as it is counter productive.*

As I've said in several recent posts regarding your work, I think you need to branch out.  It can't hurt to try, right?

*I always value your C&C as you seem full of great advice so please do not consider my reply as an attack.  I just wish people would really SEE before they post.*

Just my $00.02 worth - your milage may vary.

~John


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## dylj (Jul 28, 2008)

Actually I find it rather strange that so many people were ready to be so critical in this thread. The model is beautiful. I don't know what social undercurrent is flowing through here ... but I really doubt that all of these comments were made with the intent of making the original poster a better photographer.


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2008)

Sorry, Kim, it was my instant reaction as well.  Not trying to make you mad so much as support what tired is saying here.

My humble suggestion would be ... rather than get angry at a bunch of people for saying something you don't like, to ask yourself what (and if) you could do to minimize the effect.  Really, that's what a bit aspect of this site is about... learning what you can do with something to gain a different effect, and then deciding _afterwards_ whether or not you want to do that.

Learning... then _maybe_ applying.

I mean you _could_ simply consider not putting mascara and lip gloss on her.  That seems kinda like asking for trouble if you already know she looks mature... unless that's what you want.  If it is what you want, then say so, and the comments will change.

BTW, I think your shots and compositions are really great.  You're one of the people I always hope to get comments from when I post pictures of people.  Perhaps we're only commenting on the apparent gussying-up of your daughter here because we have relatively little else to comment on.


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## wlsmoku (Jul 28, 2008)

I love your pics - and I am learning from them - please keep posting them


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## crimson_angel (Jul 28, 2008)

i like all your photos, having had your camera for a small amount of time i think your doing a good job. though i cant comment on techniques etc cos im a noobie! To me though i dont think she is wearing too much makeup, she just looks like she has healthy skin. Ive seen kids where i live wearing A LOT more makeup than that


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## motorshooter (Jul 31, 2008)

Good work. Watch your tones with white in the forground..... it can throw off your balance of color and brightness.
Great shots, great subject and great work.


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## Alpha (Jul 31, 2008)

Way too much makeup/touch-up for a girl that age. It looks unnatural.


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## Artograph (Aug 1, 2008)

Dare I ad my 2 cents worth??  LOL!!  They really are nice pics of a little girl who is wearing too much make-up.  She looks like a lovely creature...without make-up.

P.S.  The comments on the make-up are relevant to the photography...as she looks "artificial" as someone else said....not natural, it's loo distracting.


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## MelodySoul (Aug 2, 2008)

I know you are sick of hearing about the makeup thing but I have to say it's the first thing that caught my eye also.

She may only be wearing clear gloss and mascara but it looks like a lot on her (maybe because her lips are so bright naturally). What about some chapstick and clear mascara or just curling the eyelashes? I think it would look more natural and still give you the same effect.


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## Kimberly81 (Aug 4, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Way too much makeup/touch-up for a girl that age. It looks unnatural.





Artograph said:


> Dare I ad my 2 cents worth??  LOL!!  They really are nice pics of a little girl who is wearing too much make-up.  She looks like a lovely creature...without make-up.
> 
> P.S.  The comments on the make-up are relevant to the photography...as she looks "artificial" as someone else said....not natural, it's loo distracting.



What was the point of posting this after the heated discussion above other than to add fuel to an already hot fire?  Look at the side by side comparison and then please understand that my daughter just looks like that.  The reason I am taking such offense to the "she looks fake and plastic" comments is because you are basically saying that she looks fake and plastic and overdone on a daily basis which is very offensive to me.  it is no different than when she is eating a piece of candy and has drooly lips so please STOP.  I'm not even going to post photos of her here anymore.


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## toofpaste (Aug 4, 2008)

Don't let it get to you kim.


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## fotokman (Aug 4, 2008)

ur just being overly sensitive, suck it up. its an online forum! oh no


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## Kimberly81 (Aug 5, 2008)

fotokman said:


> ur just being overly sensitive, suck it up. its an online forum! oh no


do you have any children? as a mother, i am EXTREMELY sensitive when it comes to my daughter, especially when i am being told she looks "fake and plastic".  I have solved the problem, I will not post anymore photos of her here. Easy as that.


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## tirediron (Aug 5, 2008)

fotokman said:


> ur just being overly sensitive, suck it up. *its an online forum!* oh no


 
Correct, however I wasn't aware that gave you a license to be rude.


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## Jedo_03 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well... another budding talent successfully eliminated from the forum...
And just because her model - her own daughter - wore make-up...
Well... I do hope that all egos are now fullfilled and compleat...
What I saw was good photographic technique... both the art and the craft, coupled with a photogenic model (I'm talking style and presentation rather than whether she is beautiful or not)
Kimberly says she will post no more pics here... She has also privatised her access site...
She has left a message:
*"Criticism, like rain, should be gentle enough to nourish a man's growth without destroying his roots"*
Sad outcome...
Jedo


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## motorshooter (Aug 5, 2008)

My thoughts precisely, there is a correct manner to administer accurate constructive criticism and then there is the way to be malicious, cruel and to deliberately impose anguish on someone with the words you have selected..or selected with out proper intellectual prudenceto write in a public forum. 

Be professional.if you encompass the mental capability and maturity to do so and show some tact when reviewing an individuals photography. If you dont have experience in photography or dont like an individuals attempt at photography Shut-up dont enhance your tactless technique to make someone feel awful.   

As a former Director of Photography and Photography Editor, I would by no means have told my staff of Combat photographers sports shooters or photography apprentices the condescending things I have read here. That type of destructive immature conduct crushes the creative spirit in an individual and promotes self doubt. It also labels the reviewer as a jerk, a butt hole, a jack a$$, a no-talent a$$ clown, a dick head, a trollect.

Photography is an art, and as such is best experienced through individualism, positive experiences, trial and error and exposures to the hobby or profession, not the condescending, malice ramblings of a few disheartened individuals.     


A correct response to Kim 81s CC request would be:

Kim, your exposures are good, watch out for too much white in the foreground, (Image #1) it can throw off your color balance. 

The color saturation is right as is the image composure.  

The focus is sharp and you subject is nice.

The only thing I would watch out for is that color photography, especially digital SLR photography tends to accentuate colors and sheen, and this can be corrected in Photoshop with some time and work. However; to save some trouble and time shoot your model in natural skin tones first so you will have a few captures to look at while in Photoshop to compare.

Remember, Kim didnt ask what you thought about the make upshe wanted a proficient CC of her PHOTOGRAPHY technique.  

A word to the wise
Shift a minority of your injured brain cells in your cerebellum around to retain a diminutive quantity of functional information ..what goes around comes around..


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## wlsmoku (Aug 5, 2008)

damn - you guys suck - I was actually learning from her


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## NateS (Aug 5, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with above.  You guys suck.  She is doing well with her photography and I thought that critique was about the photo not the appearance of the model (while that does play a role, not as much as you guys accentuate).

I hope that Kim will still post even if it's a different model.  She has nice photos and seems like she's getting better quick.  I know I could probably learn some from her photos.


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## MarcusM (Aug 5, 2008)

I agree this is getting a little ridiculous, but I think the OP is overly-sensitive. She got extremely upset very early on in this thread when several people commented on the makeup. If one is going to ask for C&C, they should be reasonable and expect that not everyone is going to lavish them with praise. Otherwise, don't post. It's an internet forum where anyone can come on and comment, especially when that is what the OP is requesting. And also, I believe commenting on makeup in this instance is perfectly acceptable. They are posed portrait shots. Makeup is often times part of posed portraits, as are other props or backgrounds, all of which contribute to the final photograph, therefore makeup is fair game to comment on. Now would I comment on the makeup on a candid street shot? No, not as a critique for the photographer.

It looks like it took 4 comments about the makeup to make the OP upset. I looked at every comment about the makeup (mine included) before she first got upset, and I didn't see 1 comment that was tactless or unprofessional or rude. Every comment about the makeup was just a critique, and was accompanied by helpful advice/suggestions.

I'll say it again - it is obvious that a lot of people felt the same way about the makeup that the OP put on her daughter. The OP swears it's "just a dab", but her "dab" may be someone else's "gob". There must be some legitimacy to everyone's perceptions, right?

Now, that being said, later on after the OP got so upset, I think people did start "piling on", which is why I replied to the OP's comment to my original reply, and left it at that. I could have kept going but figured why inflame her even more, when we just plain disagree. I think after the OP was obviously distressed about the makeup comments, it wasn't necessary to keep going on. It has been addressed, plenty, move on.

Still though, be prepared to get criticism if you are asking for it. That's the last of the time I'll waste on this thread.


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## wlsmoku (Aug 5, 2008)

it hasn't just been this thread - it gets brought up in every thread she makes with her daughter - she let it go for quite a while and I being a parent would grow aggitated too about that stuff after a few threads with the same "bashing" per say.


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## Pugs (Aug 5, 2008)

wlsmoku said:


> it hasn't just been this thread - it gets brought up in every thread she makes with her daughter - she let it go for quite a while and I being a parent would grow aggitated too about that stuff after a few threads with the same "bashing" per say.


 
Late to the party, I am.  My take is that if the photographic effect was enough for this many people to note an APPARENT over-use of make-up, perhaps the original poster could have asked what can be done to minimize that effect.  OR the folks giving feedback could have offered tips on how to tone that effect down as part of their overall critique.

In critiquing the picture, you're critiquing how it looks.  If the model looks age-inappropriate, or plastic, or fake, etc... then that is a legitimate part of the critique.  This is not "bashing" the model.  It is critiquing how the photograph makes the model appear.  

There are things that can be done with the camera or in post-processing to tone down those effects.  There are even things with the make-up that can be done to tone down the effects.  

Some of the initial critiques were valid.  The original poster was overly sensitive.  Some of the piling on was rude.  

I haven't read all of the other threads started by this poster, so I don't have the full history on whether or not there was rudeness in other places that led to her being overly sensitive, but in this thread, she did react rapidly and strongly to what I saw as valid critiques of the PHOTOGRAPH, not of her daughter.  

I also agree with the point that someone made earlier in the thread that if this many people have the same negative reaction to an element of the PHOTOGRAPH (not the model), then perhaps exploring other techniques to minimize that affect is in order.  

My two cents only.  And I'm a beginner and a newbie so I may be blowing a bunch smoke.


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## toofpaste (Aug 5, 2008)

Ok. I'll break it down.


I'm probably one of the most sarcastic, asshole, rude guys on this forum. And even I know that in a situation like this, (with daughters and mothers), to keep my mouth shut, because it is a sensitive topic.

Was she overly sensitive? A little.
Were you guys making uncalled, and UNREQUESTED comments? Yes.

Easy as that.

Now kim should still post more pictures, because like others said, she has a great eye, and her pictures are great to learn from.
And you other douches shut up.


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## Kimberly81 (Aug 5, 2008)

For those of you using the cop out "she is overly sensitive" you could not be more wrong.  As a general rule I really don't give a sh*t what anyone thinks NORMALLY, but being the tenacious soul that I am, I find it extremely difficult to sit by and watch wrong person after wrong person post unfounded comments in my threads.  50% of the posters in these threads were simply lemmings jumping on the bandwagon, and lost complete sight of what I really needed, GENUINE CRITIQUE.  I even did you one better and posted a side by side comparison shot of her right before bedtime, because you know I am such a terrible mother that I put makeup on her before she goes to bed : rolls eyes :  and some of you STILL had the audacity to suggest she was made up in this candid shot.  I shouldn't have to prove anything in the first place.  This is a forum, not a courtroom.  When I saw the comments about the presence of makeup in her bedtime shot, I lost all C&C respect for those people, you obviously have no eye for what you are looking at or you need a CT scan because your brain has obviously drawn makeup on my daughter before bedtime.

Thanks to those who have posted positive comments and thank you to those who offer GENUINE CRITIQUES to help me improve my techniques.  I can take criticism very well, in fact I ask for it, however, I have a difficult time digesting a moronic comment.


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## toofpaste (Aug 5, 2008)

Kimberly81 said:


> When I saw the comments about the presence of makeup in her bedtime shot, I lost all C&C respect for those people, you obviously have no eye for what you are looking at or you need a CT scan because your brain has obviously drawn makeup on my daughter before bedtime.


 
BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Quote of the year.


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## Arch (Aug 5, 2008)

ok, enough of this thread.


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