# Officially announced-Nikon is working on a new mirrorless camera



## goodguy (Jul 12, 2017)

I am wondering does Nikon making mirrorless camera is exciting news for you ?
If Nikon will come with a DX or FX or both cameras will you consider buying it ?

Nikon officially confirms they are “developing new mirrorless products” | Nikon Rumors


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## Peeb (Jul 12, 2017)

I saw that.  At this (very) late date, I'll believe it when I see it.

Breath-taking to me how slow Nikon and Canon have been to wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Derrel (Jul 12, 2017)

Peeb said:


> I saw that.  At this (very) late date, I'll believe it when I see it.
> 
> Breath-taking to me how slow Nikon and Canon have been to wake up and smell the coffee.



Not at all surprising to me...why would the established leaders in a market segment rush to undercut their position within the current paradigm? So far, sales of mirrorless cameras have been well below the sales of d-slr camera made by Canon and Nikon; Olympus for example has some wonderful lenses and cameras--but their sales figures annually are low; Canon likely sells more d-slr Rebels and 5D and 6D cameras in six weeks than Olympus sells in a year of mirrrorless sales.

Market leaders almost never RUSH to abandon an established position! It's like mucking a hand with three aces before the draw or before the flop...just dumb...


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## Peeb (Jul 14, 2017)

Here is why I thought Nikon/Canon needed to re-invent the camera: because it was obviously happening with or without them anyhow!  Look at these stats:

Was Growth in the Asian Market the Tipping Point for Nikon?

I'm no genius, but this handwriting has been on the wall for a LONG time- years.


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## astroNikon (Jul 14, 2017)

I like Derrels statement ... "Market leaders never rush to abandon an established position"
BUT, if you think of Nokia, Palm, BlackBerry (and the list can go on and on for any industry) companies don't want to Rush, but they certainly don't want to ignore and think that what they have cannot shift to another technology/service.

I remember when I was trying to sell RE/MAX a website .. their reply like many back then was that the internet was a "fad", or remember when you had to go to a recruiter to help your find a job, or a dating organization?

Times change, technology pushes changes and once in a while a company like SONY decides to show what they can do, such as with the a9.

SONY is the paradigm shift though.  Such as when Motorola made their own chips for their own hot flip phones.  It let them change the industry for a bit.  SONY makes great sensors and supporting chipsets which gives them a head start.   Nikon has been making patents in the mirrorless arena.  I'm waiting for them to come out with a "good" mirrorless for a while to compete against their DSLRs, rather than what they have ==> Nikon 1 V3 | Interchangeable Lens Camera with Built-in WiFI

I would love if they just took the D5600, replace the optical viewfinder, remove the mirror box areas, and keep the "F" mount flange distance with SONY's newer sensor technology.  The D5600 is already a small camera and that would make it a bit lighter.

And it's not really undercutting their position, but solidifying their position as the consumer target moves.

What would you do if you have a
D750 DSLR vs a D750 Mirrorless.  feature for feature the exact same, which would you buy?
Or a D5, D5600?

I think the market would go mirrorless now that SONY showed how one can overcome many of the hurdles that prevailed.


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## Braineack (Jul 14, 2017)

I agree. Mirrorless shouldn't always mean too small to wield.


i'd want something with a hybrid viewfinder, that mimics a mirrored DSLR as much as it can.   I really can't stand shooting from a screen.  it feels unnatural, like trying to aim a rifle from your hip, vs a scope.

I'd also want a body that was designed for a shooter in mind, with accessible control wheels/functions that you can manipulate easily and while shooting.

FF sized sensor. 

in-body stabilization.

F-mount compatible.


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## shadowlands (Jul 14, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I agree. Mirrorless shouldn't always mean too small to wield.
> 
> 
> i'd want something with a hybrid viewfinder, that mimics a mirrored DSLR as much as it can.   I really can't stand shooting from a screen.  it feels unnatural, like trying to aim a rifle from your hip, vs a scope.
> ...



Agree 100%! No new mount! Nikon pros already own glass. Sony A9 is awesome but lacks Nikon/Canon glass.
It doesn't need to be tiny. Screw that! Make it F mount ready, and awesome!


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## Braineack (Jul 14, 2017)

little rinky-dink camera bodies, with a large sensor, by the laws-of-physics, still require a large lens.

they need to compete with the A7/A9.


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2017)

The thing I like about mirrorless is the need for four to five batteries per a full day of shooting. I fricking HATE taking 986 frames over an 8-hour shooting day and then chimping through them all for 45 minutes at McDOnald's on the way home, and then and having only 28% of my D610's battery life remaining. I'd really rather have a camera that needs a new battery every 90 minutes!


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## jcdeboever (Jul 15, 2017)

I want a mirrorless that works like a film camera or rangefinder, has good glass, good viewfinder, well built, and can be customizable to virtually do everything looking through the viewfinder.... I have that, the Fujifilm X-T2 and X-Pro2. My only gripe with it , is battery life, and the position of the AE-L button.


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## tecboy (Jul 15, 2017)

My iPhone is mirrorless.  I'm happy with it.


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2017)

Braineack said:


> little rinky-dink camera bodies, with a large sensor, by the laws-of-physics, still require a large lens.
> 
> they need to compete with the A7/A9.



Yeah...the only place the old myth of "smaller and lighter lenses" really has applied is in short focal length lenses on small-sensor MILC rigs...the telephoto lenses for 4/3 and m4/3 and for APS-C are STILL BIG lenses! Look at the size of the 300mm for Olympus...it's a BIG lens....there is by way of physics, no way to make telephoto lenses "significantly and meaninglfully" smaller for small-sensor, mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras (MILC). The big zooms, the long teles, the superzooms...ALL are quite BIG! 

But yes, the camera makers CAN or could make small, compact pancake-type lenses in short focal lengths, and they have done so,or still do; Canon has its compact pancake 24mm and 45mm STM lenses for APS-C.Nikon has made the 45-P pancake and the old 50/1.8 Series E and Nikkor models, about an inch long in front of the mount. It **is** possible to make short focal length, very compact lenses; look at the gorgeous Leica and Panasonic and Fuji 23,25,27,40,45mm range lenses! YES! Small! Light!

The other issue is when the sensor gets small, the wide-angles need aspherical elelment designs to render well...need for aspherical ele,ent lens designs drives up the cost and makes lens design tougher, and limits easy zoom lens design offerings, and drives up cost very rapidly. Until more cameras sell, the cost of designing and manufacturing MILC lenses will keep lens prices a bit high, I think.

When we address specifically, Braineack's comment about *small camera with large sensors* (Sony A7r series, FX-size sensor) for example, the lenses like the 28-70mm and the 70-200 f/2.8 are MASSIVE lenses, every bit as large as Canon or Nikon d-slr lenses, so you've got the small body, small grip/hand-hold area, and a big-ass lens weighing the machine down, so *the rig is nose-heavy;* this is worse than being simply heavy, being un-balnced causes wrist and back strain, and makes the rig just a PITA. _Heavy but balanced _is easier to shoot than _lighter but nose-heavy_, by far!
*******

MY PERSONAL opinion: *go retro, Nikon*. Look at the Nikon SP 35mm film rangefinder...look at the Fuji X series...look a little at the Olympus OM-D E series...all have strong retro design cues! Nikon Rangefinder SP

Mirrorless interchangeable lens COMPACT camera buyers appreiciate the beautiful, stylish, and classic Leica/Contax/Nikon rangefider design touches....Fuji X cameras look *retro* and *gorgeous* to me! Olympus's OM-D E is a blatant retro ripoff, and is one of the most handsome cameras of the last 20 years....but the sensor performance makes me not want to own one.

If Nikon were wanting to sell a LOT of MILC....they need to go retro styling AND F-mount. IMHO.


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I agree. Mirrorless shouldn't always mean too small to wield.
> 
> 
> i'd want something with a hybrid viewfinder, that mimics a mirrored DSLR as much as it can.   I really can't stand shooting from a screen.  it feels unnatural, like trying to aim a rifle from your hip, vs a scope.
> ...



OMG to address your points, one by one:

1: YES!
2: Yes, for sure.
3: Body designed with a shooter in mind: HELL yes!
4: FF sized sensor: YES
5: In-body stabilzation: Yes, that would be nice, but would add cost,long-term ultimate reliablity issue also arises, but if it works, a MAJOR bonus.
6: F-mount compatible: Hell to the YES!


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## Peeb (Jul 15, 2017)

Derrel said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > little rinky-dink camera bodies, with a large sensor, by the laws-of-physics, still require a large lens.
> ...


1. clicked 'like'
2. deleted rating
3. clicked 'winner'

The final result:  winner!


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## astroNikon (Jul 15, 2017)

tecboy said:


> My iPhone is mirrorless.  I'm happy with it.


and you can make a phone call with it !!


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## Peeb (Jul 15, 2017)

astroNikon said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > My iPhone is mirrorless.  I'm happy with it.
> ...


Yeah, but when I bought my iPhone,  I got all this pressure to add a UV filter, a neck strap, a cheap tripod, some lens cleaning tissues, and an extended warranty, which was  a bummer.


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## jaomul (Jul 15, 2017)

I'm fairly sure that it doesn't matter to most whether there is a mirror or not as long as it does it's jobs well.

Fx mirror less for example has only a small size advantage over a Dslr, but if the tracking focus was equal, you can seem to push limits like FPS further, along with the advantage of current mirrorless systems have with ease of video recording.

Anything electronic that has less moving parts is often more reliable in the long run.

Think of Nikon FX mirrorless now, interface that Nikon users familiar with, f mount, faster electronic shutter, no vibration at any shutter speed, no blackout when shooting, a bit like the new Sony a9, but Nikons take on it. If it's f mount and dies continuous focus, the upgrade path is seamless


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## Peeb (Jul 15, 2017)

jaomul said:


> I'm fairly sure that it doesn't matter to most whether there is a mirror or not as long as it does it's jobs well.
> 
> Fx mirror less for example has only a small size advantage over a Dslr, but if the tracking focus was equal, you can seem to push limits like FPS further, along with the advantage of current mirrorless systems have with ease of video recording.
> 
> ...


I think that the mirrorless EVF 'seeing' your image in the viewfinder could be a compositional game changer for me.  For instance, If I set the camera to b/w, I won't have to transpose in my head what the captured image will look like- it'll be right there before I snap.  Very nice.


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## jaomul (Jul 15, 2017)

Peeb said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > I'm fairly sure that it doesn't matter to most whether there is a mirror or not as long as it does it's jobs well.
> ...


I forgot about the EVF. The things are so good now it didn't even enter my head. The EVFs were one of the things frowned upon with the arrival of DSLR alternatives, not so much now


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2017)

Peeb said:
			
		

> I think that the mirrorless EVF 'seeing' your image in the viewfinder could be a compositional game changer for me.  For instance, If I set the camera to b/w, I won't have to transpose in my head what the captured image will look like- it'll be right there before I snap.  Very nice.



YES, for some people, this is the way they feel they shoot the best--literally "seeing the image" as the camera interprets it, from the LCD display on the back, or through a viewfiner window that shows the LCD image internally.

Kirk Tuck, a seasoned professional, really,really likes this, and now shoots mirrorless smaller camerras for much of his commerical work. AND he does pro-level video with this gear too.

For other people, the slower refresh rate of even the best LCD displays, is not rapid enough for high-speed action work (sports,wildlife,motorsports, etc). And the battery drain issue of LCD viewing/compising: that issue of an always-draining-juice-just-to-see-the-picture system....ehhhh...

Of course....there could also be a simple optical viewfinder window on fixed-lens cameras, for a Leica-style window-with-changing-framelines for like a 28-35-50-85mm rangefinder-style mirrorless....man! Or separate, bright-line optical show-mount viewfinders, like the Voigtlander viewfinders, for primes.

But the issue with so many current Nikkor prime lenses is how large they are: the barrels would block the viewfinder on any small camera...rangefinder lenses tend to be very small, so the do not block the peephole viewfinder at all, or at least not too much. Today's Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AF-S G with hood is a BIG, fat lens! Older 50's, not so much. Same with today's 85mm f/1.8 AF-S G...veryt fat-barreled, compared to say the 85/2 Ai-S, which is small.


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## fmw (Jul 17, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> I want a mirrorless that works like a film camera or rangefinder, has good glass, good viewfinder, well built, and can be customizable to virtually do everything looking through the viewfinder.... I have that, the Fujifilm X-T2 and X-Pro2. My only gripe with it , is battery life, and the position of the AE-L button.


The batteries are small.  Put one in your pocket.  I still shoot about the same number of images that I did in the film days.  I don't want to spend the time going through 100s of them.  I don't bracket.  I don't use continuous mode.  I think the exposure through and then make it.  For images that are moving I just don't think it through.  I can shoot a couple of days on a single Fuji battery.


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## fmw (Jul 17, 2017)

jaomul said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> > jaomul said:
> ...



The EVF is not an issue at all with the Fuji system.  You can set the camera such that the EVF is turned off until you put your eye up to it.  It senses the eye and lights the EVF.


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## jcdeboever (Jul 17, 2017)

fmw said:


> jcdeboever said:
> 
> 
> > I want a mirrorless that works like a film camera or rangefinder, has good glass, good viewfinder, well built, and can be customizable to virtually do everything looking through the viewfinder.... I have that, the Fujifilm X-T2 and X-Pro2. My only gripe with it , is battery life, and the position of the AE-L button.
> ...


It's not a big deal, I was just saying. I manage it just fine.


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## coastalconn (Jul 18, 2017)

I could care less about mirrorless until it can outperform a DSLR for how I shoot..  Even the slightest lag in an EVF would be a deal killer for me...


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## fmw (Jul 18, 2017)

coastalconn said:


> I could care less about mirrorless until it can outperform a DSLR for how I shoot..  Even the slightest lag in an EVF would be a deal killer for me...



You can also set the camera such that the EVF is always on.  Your choice.


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## jcdeboever (Jul 18, 2017)

coastalconn said:


> I could care less about mirrorless until it can outperform a DSLR for how I shoot..  Even the slightest lag in an EVF would be a deal killer for me...


Yup, that's where the D500 or the like shine. The XT2 is pretty good in boost mode but in reality, the camera will never perform as you are accustomed too. The XT2 can do it but it is not the tool for the job. Additionally, Fuji don't have the primes Nikon or Canon have. I love my XT2 and I think it's a great all around camera but guys like you would bin it within an hour.


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## BrentC (Jul 18, 2017)

The EM1 MKII EVF has a fast 6ms delay and 120hz refresh rate.  It is very smooth and I am not noticing any lag.  Not having used a DSLR for BIF's I can't compare but other are saying that they are not experiencing any lag.


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