# Who makes a living out of photography



## dklod (Feb 5, 2008)

I know this question has been asked before (a search revealed roughly every 12-18 months), but with forumites coming and going, I thought I would raise the question again and try to broaden the responses. So....

Who here makes a living souly out of photography? Do you work freelance or for a company or have a studio? Tell us your journey and how you got to where you are today. Was it hard to break into and with virtually hundreds of thousands of photographers out there, is it difficult to remain busy and get the job over the next guy or gal, particularly if you run your own business? Ever caught that perfect shot and sold it to any form of media?


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## dklod (Feb 6, 2008)

hmm, no one. Thats odd.


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## MichaelT (Feb 6, 2008)

We're all on vacation.


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## snaremop (Feb 7, 2008)

thanks for asking this question dklod...

Being 14 years old, and interested in photography, I would love to know how easy it is to break into it.


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## dklod (Feb 7, 2008)

snaremop said:


> thanks for asking this question dklod...
> 
> Being 14 years old, and interested in photography, I would love to know how easy it is to break into it.


 
No need to thank me. there are other threads that discuss it, Im just trying to get new information from some of the newer members.  Just looking at the joining dates of some of the people that contribute alot to this forum, I too am interested how many do this for a living.


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## JIP (Feb 7, 2008)

snaremop said:


> thanks for asking this question dklod...
> 
> Being 14 years old, and interested in photography, I would love to know how easy it is to break into it.


 
Or how hard.....


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## NJMAN (Feb 7, 2008)

I am a part time freelancer. 

My opinion is if you want to get into photography for the money, dont bother.  There are vast numbers of photogs that eat, drink, live, and breathe photography, and have many periods in the beginning where they are paid little or nothing just to gain experience.  

You can make good money doing it full time, but it depends on how good you are and how competitive you can be.  Be prepared to work 16-20 hour days, and it can be at odd times of the day as well (weddings). 

I do it mainly for enjoyment, and if I happen to make a few bucks on the side, bonus for me.  

NJ


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## John_Olexa (Feb 7, 2008)

Can't say I make my living doing this, but I do bring in pretty decent income from it.... at times. I shoot freelance. Pretty much what ever I want to shoot, Weddings, portraiture/ Glamour. Also shoot stock for George Hall Code Red. ( Weather)
Started out as a stringer, but hated to be told what to shoot LOL


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## lonewolfe (Feb 7, 2008)

i am interested in becoming a freelance photographer as well but i dont have the professional camera, lenses ect. ect. i dont mind tho because i know im still learning and i have a lot more to learn but if anything i wud be happy with it being a part time thing for fun because really i love doing photography its almost like away to get people to see think about things the way you do or see what you see or feel


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## nagoshua (Feb 8, 2008)

I hope to make a career out of it but this is seeming less feasable the more i read into it.

You have to be very original and still then its who you know not what you know.

Im still gonna give it a shot, its my dream so i might aswell follow it.. but as most people know dreams don't come true!


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

I have my own photography business. At the moment it's part-time because my other job is the housework.


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## lonewolfe (Feb 8, 2008)

nagoshua said:


> I hope to make a career out of it but this is seeming less feasable the more i read into it.
> 
> You have to be very original and still then its who you know not what you know.
> 
> Im still gonna give it a shot, its my dream so i might aswell follow it.. but as most people know dreams don't come true!


 
this is why i dont have dreams i set goals because you can make those come true it just depends what you do and how hard you try or at least its a better way to think of things to me anyway lol


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

In order to make a living out of photography or anything else you have to stop dreaming about it and go do it. Many businesses fail because they're run by dreamers rather than doers.


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## lonewolfe (Feb 8, 2008)

i dont know if this book is helpful or not but it has a lot of places listed for submitting work and i was thinking about getting it i dont know maybe someone here might find it helpful to or someone here could tell me what they think about it but the book is called photographers market i skimmed through it briefly, seemed kind of useful but i dont know.


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## Fiendish Astronaut (Feb 8, 2008)

I'm starting to get business but I'm a long long long from making a living from it.

I like my day job, but considering looking for assistant experience at a studio or with a real pro to begin the move from one career to a photography one. But if I ever get the chance to quit my regular job, I'll have to make sure it's the right move as it'll be the start of a tricky road - so it'll be a difficult decision to make. And a life changing one for better or for worse.


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## John_Olexa (Feb 8, 2008)

Photographers Market is a great book!!
It list everything you need to know. Companys, how much they pay, what they want, how to contact/ summit.
It list :
Consumer Publications,  trade publications,  book publishers, greeting card/poster companys , Newpapers , stock agencies, Galleries, contest and a lot more. 

This is where I found the stock agency I now shoot with.


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## lonewolfe (Feb 8, 2008)

ok thanks i was wondering if it was worth buying or not, any other books you might suggest?


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## In2daBlue (Feb 9, 2008)

The first thing to ask yourself is what kind of photography you want to do. Photojournalism? Weddings? Portrait? 

I see photogs at the top of Vail ski mountain shooting pics of people getting off the lift. They are working for Vail resorts, probably aren't being paid much, but they are taking photos for a living. 

I know many wedding photographers and the track they each took to get there are as varied as the shooters themselves. All of them will tell you though that they are more of a businessperson than a photog. They spend many weekends in bridal expos, many hours marketing and advertising their company and some more time on the side of all of that keeping their books in order (taxes, collecting payments, etc.)

As a working photojournalist, I can tell you the newspaper and magazine industry is shrinking at a fast clip. Advertising dollars are going south each quarter and newsrooms are laying many people off and the freelance budgets are drying up. On the magazine side, it's more difficult to pitch stories to editors (especially ones that involve any sort of travel) than ever before. 

I got my start by being in the right place at the right time. I was/am a reporter who loved photography. One day the photo editor at a newspaper I was employed at many years ago was short a photographer and asked if I could get a photo to go with my story. I agreed and brought back decent art. In a short time, I was shooting all of my own photos to accompany stories I was writing for the newspaper. Within a year or so, I was shooting photos for the paper (sports, spot news, stand-alone) in addition to my writing. I have successfully marketed myself as a writer and photographer and have found success finding work in newspapers and magazines. 

The youngest photographer we have was hired 6 months ago and this is his first job. To get here, he spent a semester in J-school learning photojournalism techniques. Then, he spent a semester shooting photo stories and high school sports to build a portfolio. From there he lived out of the back of his truck for two years as he bounced from one newspaper internship to another, getting larger circulation each time, in 4 different states. When Hurricane Katrina hit, he called the Red Cross and humped with them (for free) along the Gulf Coast taking photos of the carnage. 

Did I mention, he is incredibly talented too?

Needless to say, after all of that he was selected by the photo editors to take our open photog position about six months ago. There were 246 applicants for the job. 

Bottom line: Is it impossible to break into professional photography? Not at all. Whether photojournalism, wedding, freelance or whatever, there is always room for an incredibly talented photog, but the competition is intense. 

I agree with an earlier comment though that dreamers don't usually make it to the professional ranks. The doers do. 

To all the doers out there, good luck.


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## Meysha (Feb 10, 2008)

hello, my name is vicky and I'm a photographer.

Yes it's just like AA. hehee or it becomes like that.

I quit my full time desk job 8 months ago, started a photography business (see signature below), didn't know anyone in real estate at all but thought hmpf it's a niche and i'll take it. It took off and I got my first client within a month and then managed to actually live off the business within 3 months of it starting. 
Now I also do freelance work for a newspaper company here and my business pretty much runs itself.
Yep I'm a freak.

Get out there and do it. It's awesome.


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## JodieO (Feb 10, 2008)

I make a living out of my photography.  I've done a few commercial shoots, a few editorial shoots, have some of my images coming out in a book, sold some nature stuff to card companies, etc...

but my bread and butter is my portrait work.  I do have a studio (and shoot indoors and outdoors at the studio) - have had it for a year now.  It tripled my business.  

I don't do weddings - too much headache for me, for not enough money, and I don't work weekends.  You can't pay me enough to work weekends - that's *MY* time.


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## JodieO (Feb 10, 2008)

NJMAN said:


> I am a part time freelancer.
> 
> My opinion is if you want to get into photography for the money, dont bother.


 
Why wouldn't anyone do it for the money? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love photography, but I would *NOT* be doing this for fun. For fun, I would be out riding my horses every day and kicking back, not working. I wouldn't be a photographer/business owner for any less than a six-figure salary (of course, I am in one of the highest cost-of-living states, so maybe that is why I feel that way).

I am 32 years old and have been in business for myself for 13 years (I married my husband at 19, and went right into self employment since he could support me - I took a chance, and never looked back.). I have only been a full time photographer for the last 4 years. Owning your own business and TREATING IT LIKE A REAL BUSINESS, are two different things. I'm just shocked that people do any work for a little bit of nothing - I would just ask why bother?

There are ways to make money at this, you just have to find your niche, and learn how to act as a real business. Price accordingly (no $20 8x10s - you aren't making a dime off of that)... and don't use the excuse as "my area doesn't support high prices". Either does mine - I target market to where I actually have had people fly in from New York for my services, and drive up to 4 hours to my studio.

Some business management courses or even some free courses through your small business development center can change your business life. There are too many business out there folding because they don't charge enough and don't know how to run a real business.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangeant, but I really have no idea why anyone would not do something for the money as well as for the love of it.


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## JodieO (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm going to throw this up here because I just shared it elsewhere. How much do you WANT to make doing photography? It's basically YOUR decision.

Here are some figures based on my popular sales amounts over the past few years. Now, I am going to list total SALES, but keep in mind, sales is different from profit. All expenses, etc, needs to be taken out of the final sales, but you can watch these figures grow.  By the way,  I am basing this on portraits.  That is what *I* do.

We are just going with a simple equation - average sale + how many sessions per month. 

Let's make our variable the sales (that you need to structure your pricing and marketing to receive these types of sales, and they are not bizarre amounts - I worked for a photographer for a year who had sales between $7,000 and 14,000) so I am aiming on the low side here IMO.... 

If you average $1,000 per client and take 10 sessions per month, that is $120,000 per year in sales.
If you average $1,500 per client and take 10 sessions per month, that is $180,000 per year in sales. 
If you average $2,000 per client and take 10 sessions per month, that is $240,000 per year in sales.

Now change that to more sessions per month, and see what your sales are.

If you average $1,500 per client and take 10 sessions per month, that is $180,000 per year in sales.
If you average $1,500 per client and take 15 sessions per month, that is $270,000 per year in sales.
If you average $1,500 per client and take 20 sessions per month, that is $360,000 per year in sales.

Change ONE item in the equation (as above) and it makes a huge difference... change TWO items in the equation, and it is even more insane.

If you average $1,500 per client and take 10 sessions per month, that is $180,000 per year in sales.
If you average $2,000 per cleint and take 15 sessions per month, that is $360,000 per year in sales.
If you average $2,500 per client and take 20 sessions per month, that is $600,000 per year in sales.

It's all about operating as a business, not operating as if this were a hobby.


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## Rhys (Feb 10, 2008)

If you concentrate on weddings and get 4 a year, charging $1500 per wedding then that's $6000 income. Not a bad chunk of change for a part-time bsuiness.


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## JodieO (Feb 10, 2008)

Rhys said:


> If you concentrate on weddings and get 4 a year, charging $1500 per wedding then that's $6000 income. Not a bad chunk of change for a part-time bsuiness.


 

Does $1500 per wedding really cover your expenses to even HAVE a business?

What does that mean you make hourly after you have shot the wedding, proofed the wedding, set up for making orders, mileage on your vehicle, and then print costs? (and don't forget costs of your equipment, backup camera, etc., marketing, website, etc. etc.)

I just checked out your pricing. Seriously, are you charging $100 for portraits and giving them the CD of high rez files?

That can't possibly cover your costs to be in business. I charge $2,800 for a high rez CD, and it sells.... but more often, they will buy a $1,500-2,000 print package and tack the digital files on for an additional $1,800 on top of that.  Why would you give away your stuff like that?  I'm just curious - I mean, do you not need to pay yourself for your time and talent?


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## John_Olexa (Feb 10, 2008)

When I shoot a wedding, it's only for friends or friends of friends who cannot afford a wedding photographer. I don't do the bride at the house stuff or all that. I shoot the church stuff, shoot the portrait stuff and shoot the reception stuff. I eat, drink, shoot, get paid and leave. I send them a CD a few days later and tell them to have fun making there wedding album. No fuss. Makes a nice chuck of money for a Saturday.
This only happens about 4 or 5 times a year so no big deal for me to work a few Saturdays and make a few hundred bucks for a days work. So far everybody has been happy.


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## Trenton Romulox (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm still in high school myself, and am absolutely in love with photography, but I realistically know that I won't be able to live off of my hobby for a long time, if ever. That's why I plan on becoming an English teacher, because I love english and I love teaching people. And, bonus, I get summers off if I become a teacher, and if I teach in high school like I want to, I can always be like, 'Hey, students, senior portraits, I can do them if you want.' And hey, if I could build up a business whilst I'm a teacher, then great. If not, I still have teaching, and I still have photography. Win-win really.


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## Icon72 (Feb 10, 2008)

Can anyone make money off of photography, no. However, look around. Obviously plenty of photogs do make a living from their work so I always find it odd when this question comes up. Typically the people that will tell you you can't make money at it are ones that have tried and failed or they are people that don't have the drive and desire to make it happen. If it was impossible to make money as a photographer than there wouldn't be any professional photographers.

Is it difficult? I'm sure it is. Now I wouldn't say drop any other income you have and just pray you can make it as a photog but don't fail to try only because others have the opinion that it's not a good idea. I'm sure there were plenty of folks that thought it was a bad idea for the Wright brothers to attempt flying and told them so. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think their idea ended up being a pretty good one. In any case you get my point.


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## jols (Feb 10, 2008)

JodieO said:


> I'm going to throw this up here because I just shared it elsewhere. How much do you WANT to make doing photography? It's basically YOUR decision.
> 
> Here are some figures based on my popular sales amounts over the past few years. Now, I am going to list total SALES, but keep in mind, sales is different from profit. All expenses, etc, needs to be taken out of the final sales, but you can watch these figures grow. By the way, I am basing this on portraits. That is what *I* do.
> 
> ...


 



ridiculous prices butif people are rich enough and stupid enough to pay them then go for it.

they say 'a fool and his money are soon parted'


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## John_Olexa (Feb 10, 2008)

One thing that has hurt freelancing big time is people not sending in what Editors ask for! you _use_ to see a lot of editors say " send unsolicited photos by mail for consideration" Well so many people sent junk and waisting there time, that you no longer see this much anymore. The editor of one magazine told me she was looking for images of dogs only.. she got cat images, bird images mice images, ect ect, so she no longer ask for unsolicited images, now she, like at lot of others now ask for " self promotion pieces to be kept on file for future assignments" or "Provide resume, business card or tearsheets to be kept on file" Hard to get tearsheets if you haven't been published! hard to get published if you don't have tearsheets!

Please, find out what the magazine wants that your interested in, and only send them *appropriate* images.


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## abraxas (Feb 10, 2008)

MichaelT said:


> We're all on vacation.



Define "living."

I don't make much, but I don't require much to live.

I don't work too often, but make good money when I do.

My living is half from photography and half from web sites I develop for myself- that have to do with photography and the outdoors where I do my photography.

I didn't realize I made money from photography until I did it for 10 years.

I haven't made a sales call in 10 years.

Everyday I try to do less of the stuff I like to do in order to do more of the stuff I really like to do.

It could all dissolve tomorrow.  Since it don't take much for me to live, it shouldn't be too hard to recover from. I'll worry about it then.

That's it in a nut shell.


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## JodieO (Feb 10, 2008)

jols said:


> ridiculous prices butif people are rich enough and stupid enough to pay them then go for it.
> 
> they say 'a fool and his money are soon parted'


 

Why is that ridiculous prices? Working backwards with your equations and finding out EXACTLY how much it takes to run a succesful business, you would be surprised how much you actually need in order to pay yourself and all the expenses associated - just think, as a business, you have to pay 35% taxes. Custom photography is not for everyone. The price is based on custom - not WalMart or JC Penney.

I find it funny how people think the price is ridiculous - when you are a real business owner and know what the expenses are, it opens your eyes.

Since you bring up "stupid"... I can't figure out why some photographers don't charge enough to cover their basic expenses, and soon as a business fold and go out of business because they can't turn a decent profit to continue.

My clients aren't stupid, and I would never call them that. My clients appreciate. Very seldom I have someone who complains about pricing, and that is usually someone who knows nothing about the value of custom photography.

And again, the figures I state above are actually bordering the lower end of a professional established photographer's sales, a photographer who will LAST in business because they know how to run one.

If you don't value your own work, no one else will.


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## Antithesis (Feb 10, 2008)

JodieO said:


> Why is that ridiculous prices? Working backwards with your equations and finding out EXACTLY how much it takes to run a succesful business, you would be surprised how much you actually need in order to pay yourself and all the expenses associated - just think, as a business, you have to pay 35% taxes. Custom photography is not for everyone. The price is based on custom - not WalMart or JC Penney.
> 
> I find it funny how people think the price is ridiculous - when you are a real business owner and know what the expenses are, it opens your eyes.
> 
> ...



I don't think your prices are outrageous at all. If you calculate your expenses, take enough to live and for your business to grow, then it seems like you've found a market clearing price. I think a lot of people will be shocked to hear that you charge a few thousand dollars for your work, but that's how much these things cost. 

A wedding photographer that my buddy works for (and I hope to start working for in the next few months) charges around $6,000 for a normal to high-end wedding, which is mostly what he does. The price can fluctuate depending on the size and extravagance, but people are happy to pay it for top quality work. I'm back-up shooting a wedding in july that's going to have around 4500 people. I'm pretty certain that we won't be doing it for peanuts. 

I've been given a pretty good opportunity, and in this case, it is who I know that's giving me a small window into professional photography. I've been told that I will be offered more jobs as times go on, but for the time being I'm just gaining experience and getting what I can from it. I don't plan to make any real money off it for a long time, if ever. I do plan however to continue doing it, find a normal day job in the meantime to pay the bills. If my motivation gives me the opportunity to do something I love and make ends meet at the same time, then hooray for me. I've just become painfully aware how competitive the field is, and either I'll succeed or look for something else.


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## craig (Feb 10, 2008)

I went to college (SVA) and worked my way up from assistant to photographer. Photography is a tough racket, but it pays well. If you are interested then you have to commit. Takes a lot of hard work and perseverance. Tell us about the route that you are interested in and we can help further.

On a side note: I will be leaving my cozy photographer's position here in Jackson for the uber competitive SoCal market. Scared as hell, but I know I will make it. 

Love & Bass


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## judson (Feb 10, 2008)

jols said:


> ridiculous prices butif people are rich enough and stupid enough to pay them then go for it.
> 
> they say 'a fool and his money are soon parted'



If you want to know why you will never be successful, just look at your own quote.  

There are photographers that get paid that kind of money and more.  And there is a reason for it.  You can whine that rich people are idiots, but if it takes being an idiot to be rich and you aren't rich, what does that make you?

You can be a photographer, starving like 90% of the GWC's or you can be the owner of a photography business.  I'm working on the latter!


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## craig (Feb 10, 2008)

Big up judson! That is the attitude that will help you make it in this biz. 

Love & Bass


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## Seefutlung (Feb 10, 2008)

I used to be photo journalist for major market media newspapers and wire service.  After a decade+ I got out because ... well ... because I wanted to make more/real money and have a life which would acomodate a wife and children ... a family. 

I think I got burnt out ... one day, the Superbowl became just another football game, the Oscars another grip-n-grin, fires only kick up your asthma not your adrenaline, you're more upset because of the bullet hole in your car than you are for a 15 y/o victim face down in the gutter ... when covering yet another war you walk out of the jungle after releaving yourself to find that you are surrounded by hyper Green Berets explaining that you just walk down a trail laced with booby-traps ... any one of which could have taken you out ... and you start wondering about how close to death were you ... was this closer than the helicopter that was shot out from under you ... or the RPG round imbedded in the sandbaged bunker ... et cetera.  

Then one day you feel old and that it's time to grow up.  

Would I do it again ... in a heartbeat ... a news photog is one of the greatest jobs in the world ... for a kid ... One helluva ride ... all of it on someone else's nickel ... except for the small price you have to pay of your own innocence and a bit of your sanity.

Gary


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## Just_Brian81 (Feb 10, 2008)

JodieO said:


> Why would you give away your stuff like that? I'm just curious - I mean, do you not need to pay yourself for your time and talent?


 

   I understand you have expenes and all, but honestly what is the point of hoarding all of your shots to youreslf?  Why cant one charge a flat rate for the occasion, charge for the prints, and include the 50 cent cd with all of the pictures taken for free. If the customer is already paying you 1500-3000 Just to show up, Why cant they get a 50 cent copy of all the pictures you take for free. This is the reason people are going with frends of frends to do their photography, and having all of their family running around with their own cameras.  Normal people like me just cant be shelling out 7 grand for wedding pictures.


 Sorry if i got off on a rant. I'm just getting really into this because i'm looking for a photographer for my own wedding right now, and its absurd what some people will charge for.  i wish I made 7 grand in a day that's all i can say.


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## MichaelT (Feb 10, 2008)

Brian81, it's not about the money.  If you want a friend-of-a-friend to take snaps of your wedding in trade for some free beer, that's one thing.  If, on the other hand, you want to hire an artist to create beautiful photographic images of the biggest day of your life, that's another thing. 

I've seen the $999 photographers work, and it's nothing more than a 1000 snapshots dumped onto a CD.  They spend 6 or 7 hours partying with you and laugh their way to the bank with $998.50.  What do you have?  A cd filled with crap.  And you're worried about a rip-off?

We do weddings for $5000.  Our clients receive beautiful retouched and lacquered portraits mounted in leather albums, images that bring tears to the mom's eyes, and friends say "WOW".  In our company, a typical wedding represents over 40 hours of work on the part of our staff.  And I tell you what... nobody gets ripped-off.


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## craig (Feb 11, 2008)

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that there are 200 dollar photographers and there are 7000 dollar photographers. High end photographers are not charging an outrageous fee. They charge for the quality of their work. Their clients are willing to pay and have thousands of dollars to spend. Certainly there is a market for the 200 dollar photographer. I am sure they are good, but you get what you pay for.

Moral of the story is that it takes a lot of work to get to a profitable level in photography. Shooting weddings and portraits on the weekends is cute and fun. In this industry you have to commit full time if you are going to be successful.

Love & Bass


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## jols (Feb 11, 2008)

judson said:


> If you want to know why you will never be successful, just look at your own quote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## craig (Feb 11, 2008)

We are straying way off course. We need to keep the original post in mind. Insert happy smiley here.

Love & Bass


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## jols (Feb 11, 2008)

sorry i get carried away :hug::


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## craig (Feb 11, 2008)

No need to be sorry. We are all friends here. I am going to start a new thread. Things are just starting to get interesting.

Love & Bass


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## JodieO (Feb 11, 2008)

I just want to clarify something.  My clients are not all rich.  My biggest spenders are middle class, normal people, just people that appreciate art and quality.


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## JodieO (Feb 11, 2008)

Just_Brian81 said:


> I understand you have expenes and all, but honestly what is the point of hoarding all of your shots to youreslf? Why cant one charge a flat rate for the occasion, charge for the prints, and include the 50 cent cd with all of the pictures taken for free. If the customer is already paying you 1500-3000 Just to show up, Why cant they get a 50 cent copy of all the pictures you take for free. This is the reason people are going with frends of frends to do their photography, and having all of their family running around with their own cameras. Normal people like me just cant be shelling out 7 grand for wedding pictures.
> 
> 
> Sorry if i got off on a rant. I'm just getting really into this because i'm looking for a photographer for my own wedding right now, and its absurd what some people will charge for. i wish I made 7 grand in a day that's all i can say.


 
I wouldn't touch a wedding for under $10,000.

That's just me though. I have no desire to do weddings. I only do portraits, and I dont' work on the weekends. :thumbup: but if I did weddings, I wouldn't do weddings "just showing up"... proofing would take hours, putting thought into artistic pictures is not easy. I wouldn't shoot a wedding in snapshots. My parents paid for one of those "friend photographers" and I have no good pictures to show for it - I have NO WEDDING PICTURES framed or on display because they are so bad. Granted that was 13 years ago, but you know what? All the pictures look like hell. Sure, we have the negatives, but he was an AWFUL photographer. You truly get what you pay for.


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## JodieO (Feb 11, 2008)

jols said:


> judson said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to know why you will never be successful, just look at your own quote.
> ...


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## jols (Feb 11, 2008)

cool. 

jodieo

you dont have to make no where that that for a decent living where i live.

so i suppose we are sooooooooooooooo different on the business line,

but i respect you and your photos and hope maybe to learn from you.

friends??????


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## JodieO (Feb 11, 2008)

jols said:


> cool.
> 
> jodieo
> 
> ...


 

Of course, everything is cool :thumbup:

It's a matter of being in different areas... I personally HATE that it costs so much where I live... DH and I are looking into the possibility of moving to another state in a few years... which will help out a LOT...


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## wesd (Mar 1, 2008)

My name is Wesley Delaney im a photographer based out of manchester, New Hampshire.  I have a site online where I am showcaseing some of my work, and linking it to my ebay account, but I am haveing a hard time driveing enough trafic to make some sales.  On the side I am doing portrets mostly for people I work with.


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## GeorgeUK (Mar 1, 2008)

I think if I relied on my photos to make me money to live...I would be very very hungry! 

Photography for me is a hobby, I do it because I like to do it.  I like the freedom to shoot what I want and when I want. If someone wants to pay me for a photo that's great because it might help me fund the hobby.

I'll have to make do with a regualr job (finish university in a few months!), and do my photography for fun. :thumbup:


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## NJMAN (Mar 1, 2008)

JodieO said:


> Why wouldn't anyone do it for the money? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love photography, but I would *NOT* be doing this for fun. For fun, I would be out riding my horses every day and kicking back, not working. I wouldn't be a photographer/business owner for any less than a six-figure salary (of course, I am in one of the highest cost-of-living states, so maybe that is why I feel that way).
> 
> I am 32 years old and have been in business for myself for 13 years (I married my husband at 19, and went right into self employment since he could support me - I took a chance, and never looked back.). I have only been a full time photographer for the last 4 years. Owning your own business and TREATING IT LIKE A REAL BUSINESS, are two different things. I'm just shocked that people do any work for a little bit of nothing - I would just ask why bother?
> 
> ...


 
I hadn't check this thread in a while, and just now saw your thread. I think it deserves a reply. 

First of all, thanks for your view Jodie. I love photography too, but maybe I am just too early in my career to know what I want or where I want to go with it. I have only been charging for photography for about 2 years. I do portraits only, and have never been paid to do a wedding. 

Regarding my employment status, I work full time at a day job that pays the bills, allows me to take vacations 4 weeks out of the year, and has decent hours Monday through Friday. Ive been with my company for 10 years. Since I haven't been doing freelance photography too long, it would be silly for me to quit my day job and just dive in full time, charge premium price, and hope I secure enough clients and jobs to make a comfortable living. 

Regarding my clientele, I market to people I know right now that have families. They are referrals only, people that I have known through previous jobs, friends or family of co-workers, and friends of my own family, that sort of thing. They come to me because I do a better job than JC Penney or Walmart, but dont charge outrageous prices that studios charge. I am quite certain my clientele will change, and I will probably alienate my existing clients when I raise my prices to where they should be. When that will be, I dont know. Right now, I am just trying to build my portfolio, get my business name out there, and pay for my equipment purchases. 

The fact that you make six figures a year is great. But its not even close to what I could make in photography right now, if ever in my area. It would even be a huge stretch for me to make $50,000 a year just doing portrait photography. It is certainly due to the fact that I am not marketing to the right people. Where I can find clients that spend that kind of money on portraits, I have no idea. 

It sounds like you have it figured out. I wish you the best in your business.


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## ir0n_ma1den (Mar 2, 2008)

JodieO said:


> I'm going to throw this up here because I just shared it elsewhere. How much do you WANT to make doing photography? It's basically YOUR decision.
> 
> Here are some figures based on my popular sales amounts over the past few years. Now, I am going to list total SALES, but keep in mind, sales is different from profit. All expenses, etc, needs to be taken out of the final sales, but you can watch these figures grow.  By the way,  I am basing this on portraits.  That is what *I* do.
> 
> ...



Damn, you have this down like it's a science! Teach me your ways!

I see that you live in Maryland, where do you find people that pay that much?

You definetly have my respect, but do you do photography for fun, like things that you enjoy taking pictures of, or is it strictly a buisness?


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## JerryPH (Mar 2, 2008)

JodieO said:


> I don't do weddings - too much headache for me, for not enough money, and I don't work weekends. You can't pay me enough to work weekends - that's *MY* time.


 
I know a husband and wife team that had the exact same attitue, but that changed quickly after they together augmented their yearly intake by $65,000 gross to their yearly house hold by JUST adding weddings to their list of things they do.  For them it was very worth it and a very nice salary increase.  They both work very hard, though.

I am not a professional photographer, but I do own 3 businesses and have started and run and then sold 11 businesses successfully for profit over the last 30 years.

There is no "easy" business, at least not a legal one.  Everyone who has a successful business, no matter what kind, has invesed a lot of money, blood, sweat and tears and often YEARS of time before it becomes profitable.

I do not see Photography as being any different from any other business.  What you put in is going to be what you get out of it.

I would not want to become a full-time professional photographer.  I feel I would loose the fun and passion of it for me, and I make a lot more now than most photographers do anyway... and I love what I do, which is THE MOST important aspect for any job or business.


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## Kyle Landon (Apr 20, 2008)

*Well,* you have to understand that in order to make money with photography - you need to have some business skills as well. 

*You* can't just expect your services to market themselves and your pictures to be leaps and bounds better than everyone elses pictures.

I've made a hefty part-time income with Youth Sports Action Photography - as this is my passion.

It's quite easy to start a sports photography business taking pictures of youth athletes playing their sports. 

And... Parents will pay top dollar for it.


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## STICKMAN (Apr 20, 2008)

Jodie O, what ever your doing, your doing it well thats for sure. I just spent some time on your site and your work is amazing!!! It seems you had a great business plan and you put your heart in to making it happen.  Prices are prices and to each are own, but you get what you pay for and that a proven fact. I would pay top dollar for your type of work esp. the newborn as its once in a life time, per child.  Well once again top notch work.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## brileyphotog (Apr 22, 2008)

This topic reminds me of a quote from poker - "It's a crime to let his sucker keep his money."

Business is business. Charge as much as you can get and never look back. If you want to do community service donate to galleries for free or start a charity organization that uses photography. 

There are way too many people that feel like photography isn't legit.


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## JodieO (Apr 22, 2008)

ir0n_ma1den said:


> Damn, you have this down like it's a science! Teach me your ways!
> 
> I see that you live in Maryland, where do you find people that pay that much?
> 
> You definetly have my respect, but do you do photography for fun, like things that you enjoy taking pictures of, or is it strictly a buisness?


 
It's simple business math, that's all! 

Yes, I definitely take pictures for fun too - that's usually what I share on my blog here and I occasionally sell nature prints, but honestly, business is portraits, that's it 

I will tell you something I WON'T do again is be on TV... did that last week, never want to do that again... but I crossed it off my list of things I wanted to do with my business... LOLOLOL!  :lmao:  I'm not meant to be in front of ANY camera...


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## JodieO (Apr 22, 2008)

ir0n_ma1den said:


> I see that you live in Maryland, where do you find people that pay that much?


 
Meant to answer this too... all you need is people that value your work.  It doesn't matter whether they are billionaires or middle class, I have had customers from all walks of life buy my work.

I've made the mistake of seeing a very young couple and thinking - ah... they aren't going ot buy much, and have them spend 4 grand without a blink of an eye... and I have had really wealthy be some of my lowest spenders... there is no rhyme or reason.


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## Parago (Apr 23, 2008)

JodieO said:


> Meant to answer this too... all you need is people that value your work.  It doesn't matter whether they are billionaires or middle class, I have had customers from all walks of life buy my work.
> 
> I've made the mistake of seeing a very young couple and thinking - ah... they aren't going ot buy much, and have them spend 4 grand without a blink of an eye... and I have had really wealthy be some of my lowest spenders... there is no rhyme or reason.




Jodie.. I think I've said it before and I'll say it again.. respect, girl. I am truly envious of how you have this business thing figured out and how, in your awesome no-bull**** kinda way, you stand up for what you're doing.

When I read what you said about 20.- 8x10s ("you aren't making a dime off of that"), I cringed. I sell my 8x10s for 14.- and got criticized for being too expensive. I pondered lowering the prices again but ended up not doing it.

Still, every chance I get, I half my sitting fee for people (which is 45.- in-studio), simply because I feel bad charging 'that much'. Seriously. I'm crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I love doing what I'm doing but at times I feel like I'm the Mother Theresa of Portrait photographers. I'm not making Jack **** at this point, and I've been doing this for about a year now. I, too, started because DH was/is able to support my hobby so i figured what the heck, let's try this as a business. I guess I suck at it.

Reading your posts makes me feel like a piece of poop.. in a good way though. It's motivating and energizing. It gives me hope. 

Man how I wish we could go for a coffee right now and do some business talking. 

I'm buying. (I bet you knew that already)


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## Don Kondra (Apr 23, 2008)

Dear Jodie,

Thank you for a refreshingly realistic view of life as a business person. 

I wish someone would have been so kind as to share this with me when I starting along my path 

And it has made me rethink my reluctance to engage in discussions such as this in my own field.

Cheers, Don


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## The_Traveler (Apr 23, 2008)

Parago said:


> When I read what you said about 20.- 8x10s ("you aren't making a dime off of that"), I cringed. I sell my 8x10s for 14.- and got criticized for being too expensive. I pondered lowering the prices again but ended up not doing it.



A surgeon doesn't charge for the scalpel blade. 
Selling per item makes a commodity out of what is a  work of art.  The reason that  expensive wedding or portrait photogs get the big bucks is that what they *do  *is wonderful and the print is only a manifestation of that achievement. 

When I am able to take wonderful portraits, I will be doing it with the same camera and lenses and my printing costs will be the same. What will be different and what will cost will be my talent (if I eventually can uncover it.)

I have a friend in the professions who was extremely good at what he did and was much too busy - so he raised his fees - and became even busier. 
People recognize, want and will pay for quality - because then they will have something that they will treasure.


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## JodieO (Apr 24, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> I have a friend in the professions who was extremely good at what he did and was much too busy - so he raised his fees - and became even busier.
> .


 
Yes, perception is HUGE.  Every time I get absolutely too busy, I raise my prices. When I see someone who has a spouse who can support them, and they only do the photography "on the side" and it isn't a total necessity to bring money in, I tell them to raise their prices to a ridiculous amount (or at LEAST as high as the higher end photogs) and sit back and watch.  Business will be slow at first but all of a sudden, you will find those people who value your work, and you will be too busy for your own good! lolol!

If you have someone else who can support your family, that is the BEST SITUATION to play with your prices and to really see how high you can get them and demand a high end feel, etc. to your whole business.... because it is one of those "what do you have to lose" type of situations.

As soon as I am done paying off a bunch of debt we have and invest in a studio (I'm renting now, I want to buy a building), and get a bunch of stuff squared away, and DH starts his own business - which although he makes six figures too, he will be able to double or triple  his income within the first year or two when he starts his business (let me just say, the situation he is in to do so is too good to pass up), I will cut back on my business by seriously upping my prices....I'd personally like to get $10,000 sales on portraits on a regular basis - and be extremely exclusive.  Four sales per month would be nice.

I don't thik it is out of the question, but I am not goign to shoot myself in the foot either - just need to get my "ducks in a row" before I attempt that structure... lololol!


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## NJMAN (Apr 24, 2008)

JodieO said:


> Yes, perception is HUGE. Every time I get absolutely too busy, I raise my prices. When I see someone who has a spouse who can support them, and they only do the photography "on the side" and it isn't a total necessity to bring money in, I tell them to raise their prices to a ridiculous amount (or at LEAST as high as the higher end photogs) and sit back and watch. Business will be slow at first but all of a sudden, you will find those people who value your work, and you will be too busy for your own good! lolol!
> 
> If you have someone else who can support your family, that is the BEST SITUATION to play with your prices and to really see how high you can get them and demand a high end feel, etc. to your whole business.... because it is one of those "what do you have to lose" type of situations.
> 
> ...


 
You seriously scare the hell out of me with your level of confidence and business sense.  But on the other hand, you seriously inspire me as well.


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## JodieO (Apr 24, 2008)

NJMAN said:


> You seriously scare the hell out of me with your level of confidence and business sense. But on the other hand, you seriously inspire me as well.


 

The confidence is only because I have watched it done.

I briefly worked with a photog years ago that usually only sees her clients once.  She is very exclusive and if you are going to do business with her, you know you are going to spend big... and I swear, she has to have a financing company in with her somewhere because I have actually gotten some of her clients before, and they say they have spent anywhere from $7,000-$18,000 on her work.  :shock:


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## maytay20 (Apr 30, 2008)

Trenton Romulox said:


> I'm still in high school myself, and am absolutely in love with photography, but I realistically know that I won't be able to live off of my hobby for a long time, if ever. That's why I plan on becoming an English teacher, because I love english and I love teaching people. And, bonus, I get summers off if I become a teacher, and if I teach in high school like I want to, I can always be like, 'Hey, students, senior portraits, I can do them if you want.' And hey, if I could build up a business whilst I'm a teacher, then great. If not, I still have teaching, and I still have photography. Win-win really.


I am not saying anything bad about teachers they are great people. But don't teach for the money. My BIL and SIL are both teachers and don't make enough to live on. I do my photography, my husband DJs and we are servers on the side and we do pretty good for our family.


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## Lacey Anne (Apr 30, 2008)

Jodie, you are inspiring. I have read every word you have written on this thread and then visited your site as well. Damn. I'm going to use you as an example as I set up my business. Thank you.


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## jcolman (May 1, 2008)

I'll kick this horse a bit.

I've made a living behind the camera for over 35 years.  I went to school, got a degree in photography, then transfered to another school and studied cinematography.

My first job was making training films/still photography in a corporate setting. (see my av for what I looked like all those years ago)  My second job was working as a photographer for a newspaper.  My third job was shooting tv news.  My fourth job was shooting tv entertainment shows.  My fifth job was producing tv shows, documentaries.  My sixth and seventh jobs has been as a video producer/director.  During this time I also produced several freelance films/videos.

Today, I'm still making videos for a living but I'm going back to my first love....still photography.  I'm just starting my own part time freelance business and loving every minute of it.


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## rubbertree (May 4, 2008)

I :heart: Jodie.
I have such a strong business sense about you, it's very admirable. I hate when artists of any genre undercut themselves and other artists.
I do not make a living from photography, I do freelance and commissioned work though I have worked as a portrait photographer and photojournalist in the past (as my full time job).
I currently own my own business in a completely different industry, art nonetheless. And we are constantly seeing other artists making the same type of product and charging 1/4 what we charge. It sucks because it is hard work, so much R&D goes into it, materials are very expensive, I have my own studio in my house devoted to it, it's time consuming and it's not cheap! So I charge as I should for the product. I would consider myself on the higher end of the scale in that industry and I am so overwhelmed with orders for product it is extremely difficult to keep up.
It has nothing to do with suckering money out of rich people, but I prefer to have clients who appreciate and pay for my  hard work. If other people would rather pay 1/4 of my prices for someone else's product, go for it. You get what you pay for.
When you make a business out of it, you aren't just doing it for fun, yes, you are doing it for money as well.


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## Parago (May 4, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> If other people would rather pay 1/4 of my prices for someone else's product, go for it. You get what you pay for.
> When you make a business out of it, you aren't just doing it for fun, yes, you are doing it for money as well.




I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree here. What you're trying to say is that the most expensive photographers deliver the best possible quality and that's simply not true. You have to consider many different aspects when creating your price list - simply slapping 4-digit prices on your website, even if you're indeed THAT talented, doesn't turn you into an 'upscale' photographer. Life would be pretty damn sweet if it was that easy.

What it comes down to is a combination of business skills, artistic skills, and timing. 

Jodie pretty much seems to have that figured out quite amazingly. Others don't. We're all human, after all. But please don't stand there and tell me all expensive photographers are 'upscale' and 'good', while others who conform to their individual (and oftentimes less than perfect) circumstances and chose to offer their services at more affordable prices are crap or inevitably deliver lesser quality.


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## rubbertree (May 4, 2008)

Parago,
No where in my post did I say that. Reread what I wrote!
Nowhere did I say that you slap 4 digits on your price does it make you upscale.


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## Parago (May 4, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> Parago,
> No where in my post did I say that. Reread what I wrote!
> Nowhere did I say that you slap 4 digits on your price does it make you upscale.




You said 'you get what you pay for' - how else is that to be understood?


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## rubbertree (May 4, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> I currently own my own business in a completely different industry, art nonetheless. And we are constantly seeing other artists making the same type of product and charging 1/4 what we charge. It sucks because it is hard work, so much R&D goes into it, materials are very expensive, I have my own studio in my house devoted to it, it's time consuming and it's not cheap! So I charge as I should for the product. I would consider myself on the higher end of the scale in that industry and I am so overwhelmed with orders for product it is extremely difficult to keep up.
> It has nothing to do with suckering money out of rich people, but I prefer to have clients who appreciate and pay for my  hard work. If other people would rather pay 1/4 of my prices for someone else's product, go for it. You get what you pay for.



Here is my quote that you are misunderstanding.
When I say, "You get what you pay for" I am saying that I have spent years in R&D, use top quality materials, have high quality packaging and make a superb product. I have my products represented in high end retail locations and are purchased by educated people who appreciate all the hard work and are willing to pay for it.
Someone who is in the same industry and charging 1/4 for similar product is not producing the same thing as I am and the customers will not get the same quality. They have not put the same amount of R&D into it, are not using the same top quality materials or packaging. The customers know it. That is what I meant by "you get what you pay for".


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## Parago (May 4, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> Here is my quote that you are misunderstanding.
> When I say, "You get what you pay for" I am saying that I have spent years in R&D, use top quality materials, have high quality packaging and make a superb product. I have my products represented in high end retail locations and are purchased by educated people who appreciate all the hard work and are willing to pay for it.
> Someone who is in the same industry and charging 1/4 for similar product is not producing the same thing as I am and the customers will not get the same quality. They have not put the same amount of R&D into it, are not using the same top quality materials or packaging. The customers know it. That is what I meant by "you get what you pay for".




Yea well.. I guess I understand what you mean and I know where you're coming from. It's a sore spot for me nonetheless, simply because of my own personal situation, which I am, quite honestly, not happy with. So I guess I'm being a little too bitter - I'm sorry if I came across rude or whatever..


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## rubbertree (May 4, 2008)

:hug:: that's okay, you were not rude, I understand your questioning it.
When I first started out in my other business, it was at a hobby level and there was no way I was charging top dollar. But over the years as my knowledge of the art grew, my materials got better, my presentation became top notch, etc, I was then able to start charging more and more. I didn't just jump in at top prices, I worked my way up.


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## Varuna (May 5, 2008)

JodieO, you've become a core inspiration for my pursuit of a career in photography! 

I learned the real value of photography a number of years ago, when our house flooded and all of our photo albums were destroyed (among other things), leaving all those memories drifting in the fog of my pre-frontal cortex. You're not just paying for a CD full of pictures, or some film and prints.

You're paying for a person's time, indeed, but not just any person. Someone with passion for their work, and a real understanding of how to convey a message or memory through the photos. You may also be paying for the painstaking work of post processing (maybe it's just painstaking for me though ) 

In my short time as an amateur photog, one awful truth about this industry I've learned, is that many people seem to underestimate the value of what photographers do. We're capturing your fondest memories, which can never be relived, and usually can't be conveyed to others by speech/text nearly as well as a photo. I can _tell _how magnificent the view of Athens is from a cliffside highway, or how huge the Eiffel Tower is (always looked smaller on TV to me), but my pictures can _show_ you.

Like they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words".

Hopefully people can now start responding to the other elements of the OP's questions. let's hear some more of your journies from buying your camera to living off of your art. I'm personally pretty stuck as to how I can break into the professional field. Currently my best idea is (which I'll do tomorrow) to throw out fax after fax with my resume and cover letter to studios around town as well as some local newspapers asking for assistant, etc. work. How did you guys get into the "pro" side of things?

Oh, and something to help inspire other amateur photogs...The first thing my college automotive prof did when he came into our first class was write a quote of his in HUGE letters on the blackboard, reading "You either are a professional, or you are not." It's all about how you approach what you're doing. I consider myself a Pro-Am Photographer. I'm an amateur because I'm new, and don't make money off of it, but I'm a pro because I carry myself like one. I love what I do, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone say otherwise. Ok, I think I've said enough...lol


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## hurd300403 (Jun 10, 2008)

For me, I majored in computer science...moved to dc...got lucky with a salaried job requiring advanced computer skills and photography experience.

Most of my day is spent taking pictures of dignitaries and celebrities...can't complain about that. The computer stuff is a nice change up as well.


MY advice: get a degree first


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## Alpha (Jun 10, 2008)

I make a living in spite of photography.


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## iflynething (Jun 16, 2008)

GeorgeUK said:


> ......Photography for me is a hobby, I do it because I like to do it.  I like the freedom to shoot what I want and when I want. If someone wants to pay me for a photo that's great because it might help me fund the hobby.
> 
> :thumbup:


 

Just about what I was going to say. So many people ask me if I shoot professionally. I always say not really. Every time, the response is, "well do you get paid for your pictures..." Yes...."well you shoot professionally.

I would hate to consider that I shoot professionally (meaing I would be making a living out of it) because just like George said, it's a hobby. When you take a hobby and turn it into something you get paid for (working for a company, shooting FOR someone) then it just all changes and it's not fun anymore. 

I fly radio controlled planes and there are sponsored pilots. (Just bear with me....I'm going somewhere with this.) These sponsored pilots, I would consider the photographers who shoot (fly) for a company. They are tied down to only flying one brand or radio, one manufacturer of plane. This would be the company photographer who can do nothing but make sure they get the shot to make the company happy. Now if you're working for yourself, it might be a little bit easier, but I hope you catch my drift.

Sorry, little bit more than I wanted to type, but you get the idea.

~Michael~


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## KD5NRH (Jun 16, 2008)

dklod said:


> Who makes a living out of photography



The guys who take a $20 or less bit of machined metal and/or molded plastic and sell it for $150+ as a professional bracket/mount/whatever.

Prime example: http://www.adorama.com/JDFBSM2.html

Grab some $3.00 piece of junk you've jury-rigged to do something camera related, take it to a local machine shop and ask them to turn it out in aluminum, in bulk.  Anodize it black, charge way too much, and market the heck out of it.


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## xbox360gurl70s (Jun 16, 2008)

many claimed that a photo blog or website can be good living, alongside with other ares in the internet marketing too. but tha's just them


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## AmFotog (Jun 23, 2008)

I've made somewhat of a living, im going into my last year of school but so far i've done quite a few random jobs that have paid the bills


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## kr1sta (Jun 28, 2008)

I sell my photos as stock and I also sell prints of my photos too.


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## penfold1 (Jun 29, 2008)

So, who can explain to me how to become a photojournalist?

I have always dreamed of being one.  Traveling the world and taking photographs in exotic places and warzones has always seemed romantic to me.

What path do I take?


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## sabbath999 (Jun 30, 2008)

JodieO said:


> It's all about operating as a business, not operating as if this were a hobby.



Hear her.


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## Rhys (Jun 30, 2008)

penfold1 said:


> So, who can explain to me how to become a photojournalist?
> 
> I have always dreamed of being one.  Traveling the world and taking photographs in exotic places and warzones has always seemed romantic to me.
> 
> What path do I take?



1st... Write your will. War photographers are usually seen as fair game by both sides. Spot of easy target practice soldier? Aim, fire, splat!

2nd... You need to get some experience of photographing local conflicts with a local newspaper. You don't need to work for the paper - you could freelance BUT freelance rates suck for newspapers unless you work for a bureau. 

3rd... Get in with a news bureau that's in the thick of it - Reuters etc.


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## penfold1 (Jun 30, 2008)

Rhys said:


> 1st... Write your will. War photographers are usually seen as fair game by both sides. Spot of easy target practice soldier? Aim, fire, splat!
> 
> 2nd... You need to get some experience of photographing local conflicts with a local newspaper. You don't need to work for the paper - you could freelance BUT freelance rates suck for newspapers unless you work for a bureau.
> 
> 3rd... Get in with a news bureau that's in the thick of it - Reuters etc.



Thanks for the advice, yeah I know about the fair game aspect, but we all have to die sometime, eh?

I think I am off to a good start contacting the local paper and getting freelance info. Now I just need to hunt down some newsworthy photo's.


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## henkelphoto (Jun 30, 2008)

Hi Penfold1

Well, as for being romantic I would have to say no. However, it is a rush. Although I've not been in a war zone, I've been under fire. And I have been to exotic locations as a photojournalist. When I was younger I used to think I can't believe they're paying me to do this!

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I know a few people who've been there and it's no picnic. There are no "good guys". Just walking out the door of your hotel can be a deadly experience, not to mention the chance of being kidnapped. Most of the pjs over there are not allowed to do much of anything due to the dangers involved. 

As for how to become a pj, it a hard road to follow. You need to be dedicated, independantly wealthy :mrgreen: and willing to work long hours. 

I started in college with the university's "photo services" which lead me to a part-time job with the local newspaper, that lead to a full-time job with the same newspaper. After a few years there, I moved to Los Angeles and began freelancing for the L.A. Times, O.C. Register and AP. I ended up taking a photo editor job with AP followed by a photo editor job with my current paper. In between all that, I was chief photographer for the Pacific Daily News in Guam and did some commerical freelancing in Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Now I'm about to begin working as a photog one day a week at the paper along with photo editing. Oh, by the way, did I mention that I started all this back in 1976?

Personally, if I was to begin my career in pj now, I would probably go video. There's darned few jobs available as a still photojournalist these days and they are becoming fewer as the months go on. I foresee in about 5-10 years, all newspapers of any size will be using hi-def digital video cameras and just frame grab for their print product while using the video for their websites. 

Good luck to you and I hope you realize your goals, but remember that most pjs today do alot of photo ops and very few of those are "romantic". 

Jerry


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## Hooligan Dan (Jul 3, 2008)

I do. I work about 30 hrs a week for the local paper(as an employee, not freelance), and during the summer/fall school season I work for a studio that has the contracts for ID/yearbook/sports photos for a ton of schools.


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## sperry (Aug 1, 2008)

i certainly don't make a living at shooting, but i guess deep down i want to at some point.

so i am already trying to force myself to not give away my product/service. with that idea, i am working with friends to help build my portfolio. but, it's not for free. they are getting a good deal and i am getting a portfolio. as my portfolio grows and my skills progress, my prices will increase.

i know you shouldn't give anything away at a 'good deal' because it dilutes the perceived value, but i feel like it's better than getting nothing for the chance to practice on real people. basically, it is covering my cost to process and print and lens rentals (if i rent one for the shoot). i have been doing this only for a few months but working to build a business from the start. 

it is a fun hobby, but it is also a fun way to make a living. 

after researching the pricing in the area i was stunned to see how many photographers (wedding in particular) just give away a disc full of hi-res images for ~$1200 a pop. i don't want to get into that line of business - and won't. it just doesn't seem like it is worth the time. 

i recently shot my first wedding for friends and it is a lot of work! i'm sure it will get easier as i build effeciencies into my workflow, but still, it takes time and skill to produce a quality product. i'm not about to just give it away for a sliver of a profit. my time is too valuable.

thanks to all who provide their advice and inputs here. it is a real value to those trying to learn the ins and outs of the landscape.


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## Seefutlung (Aug 1, 2008)

penfold1 said:


> So, who can explain to me how to become a photojournalist?
> 
> I have always dreamed of being one. Traveling the world and taking photographs in exotic places and warzones has always seemed romantic to me.
> 
> What path do I take?


 
Do you really want to know? I used to be one of those guys you described. PM me and I can help separate the realty from the dream. (I helped a dude in Texas with his portfolio/string book) he got a job working in news.

Gary


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## andrew99 (Aug 1, 2008)

Seefutlung said:


> Do you really want to know?  I used to be one of those guys you described.  PM me and I can help separate the realty from the dream. (I help a dude in Texas with his portfolio/string book) he got a job working in news.
> 
> Gary



Why PM?  I'd love to hear it to!


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## Snyder (Aug 1, 2008)

Seefutlung said:


> Do you really want to know? I used to be one of those guys you described. PM me and I can help separate the realty from the dream. (I help a dude in Texas with his portfolio/string book) he got a job working in news.
> 
> Gary


 
I would love to hear some of your experiences! Im currently a young photojournalist and I have a great passion for this. I am an adventure seeker I have seen and done things people only dream or wish they could do and I had have a few close calls. I have been doing this for 3yrs now and I would like to hear how you tackled different kinds of photo jobs. I also have traveled a bit and have a good amount of expirence ive done photojournalism in Iraq. I would like to hear any tips or advice or knowledge you have to offer since you are a seasoned pro.


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## prodigy2k7 (Aug 1, 2008)

ALl professionals I see have at least 2 good bodies. And plenty of professional lenses that cost thousands each. To actually make a living off photography you will probably have to have a lot invested in lenses and bodies.


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## Bifurcator (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think so.  You should be able to make a good living with almost any camera.  I know a guy making $3.5k/mo. just shooting catalogue images with an ancient 4 mp Nikon point and shoot. Another girl friend of mine supplies realtors with lot and structure shots using a Konica/Minolta A2 I sold her second hand almost 3 years ago. She does OK. I dunno exactly but she buys herself a nice new car every two yeas and lives in an fairly expensive building downtown.


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## Antithesis (Aug 1, 2008)

From what I gather, going into it without any connections is a pretty vast challenge. I got a pretty lucky break from a friend who I had been assisting occasionally over the last year. I got a message from him saying he had an opportunity for me, I responded, got an interview and now I've been working at a good studio for three months. It was supposed to be a part time job, but after working very hard, they've opted to keep me on for as long as they I choose to work here. 

When your starting out, learn everything you can before you start. Your work will speak for you, and if you don't have good work and do a good job, you will be considered a joke by your colleagues and probably fail in your first year from a bad reputation. The best ways to learn are reading, assisting and just taking a ton of pictures. One thing that has helped me is constantly staring at my boss's photos (because I color correct and edit a lot of his work), as it helps me think of cool shots and this and that. 

The hardest part seems to be knowing when to start. There are a lot of people that get out there without any experience and don't make it. You have to know what your doing before you can make a profession out of it, and believe me, it's not as easy as it seems.


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## Antithesis (Aug 1, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> ALl professionals I see have at least 2 good bodies. And plenty of professional lenses that cost thousands each. To actually make a living off photography you will probably have to have a lot invested in lenses and bodies.



That's not entirely true. I know a couple people who pretty much use like three primes to shoot a job (around a thousand dollars worth of glass depending on your taste), and it comes out looking good. It's nice to have a whole heap of expensive glass, but being smart with a couple lenses is far better than spending half your time switching lenses around and wondering why you can't think of a good shot. 

Also, my boss shot a wedding with a borrowed 1DS mk3 a while ago, and he ended up shooting 75 gigs worth of memory. That gets border-line retarded and in my opinion is ridiculous. Just because it's super high-end doesn't make it the best for a given job.


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## iflynething (Aug 1, 2008)

Antithesis said:


> ...ended up shooting 75 gigs worth of memory. That gets border-line retarded and in my opinion is ridiculous. Just because it's super high-end doesn't make it the best for a given job.


 
That is completely insane

~Michael~


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## Antithesis (Aug 2, 2008)

iflynething said:


> That is completely insane
> 
> ~Michael~



Yeah, not just cause of the sheer amount of actual memory cards used, but all the stuff we have to backup and then sift through and edit. It took 17 DVD's to fit all the raws and then it made lightroom freeze like 5 times when trying to convert the ones we wanted. 21mb files for the lose.


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## Seefutlung (Aug 2, 2008)

andrew99 said:


> Why PM? I'd love to hear it to!


 
Firstly, let me qualify my experiences as being from the film only days. I shot news for about 15 years then decided to get a real job, make real money and have a real family.

I am sure that Snyder has more relevant and up to date information.

There was a time when anybody who could work a darkroom qualified for a position as a news photographer. In the 70s, major news organizations started phasing out these photographers and started replacing them (usually through retirement) with photo journalists (photogs with degrees in communications/journalism).

Typically, as with most reporters/photogs, one would start out working on a small paper and then move up as the opportunity opened to middle sized papers then finally larger metro papers or wire service (once again all dependant on luck and abilities). One will starve at small papers, starve less at middle sized papers and do okay at large papers.

There are always exceptions to the rules. I suspect that with newspapers going out of business the internet becoming a significant news source that there are more exceptions then before.

Typically, to break into news one would become a stringer. A stringer is a part-time reporter or photog that covers after hours / weekend events when the full time reporters / photogs are off. i.e. Night Time high school sports. Stringing opens the door for the neophyte, allows the stringer to become familiar with the system, the staff and professional exceptations (both image wise and conduct wise) of the paper.

After proving oneself by stringing and learning the ropes at the paper one can start requesting certain assignments. Ultimately, the paper will hire a stringer over a stranger.

Another way is to get a scanner (radio) and monitor fast breaking news, usually fire and police department activity. This is another ice breaker which may open the door to stringing.

Both these activities will help you develop your "String Book" as it was called way back in the film only days. The String Book is a portfolio of clippings, shots and stories that were printed. The String Book is your resume. It shows capability of working under deadline and how you covered the story.

Traditionally, this is how most photogs entered the news biz.

Once again, to work full time staff for a major news organization you will need a degree. One's reporting skills are more important than one's photographic skills. (I am not not saying that photographic skills are unimportant ... but rather that it is more important to know how to cover a story and how to develop a story than the ability to capture eight zones/EVs on every exposure.)

When I was working news assignments came in these flavors:

1) Already Set-Up
Suff like sports or press conferences, stuff which you just go and shoot what's there.

2) W/ a Reporter
Assignments which you go to with a reporter. On these assignments the reporter usually has a certain angle and the two of you discussed how that angle will effect the art (images) ... and you shoot accordingly.

3) W/ A Story
The editorial staff or photo editor will hand you a story and say get some art. You have to read the story and make your own arrangements with the various elements in the story to get the photos. 

Sometimes you'll chat with the reporter and/or editors on what their expectations may be. Often, you will have to do your own research and dig up potential photo opps or just to get some background so your photographs will reflect a better and deeper understanding of the story other than a cursory shot.

4) Filler/Feature Art
On slow days you have to shoot stuff which is self generated feature stuff. This is usually weather related or just pretty stuff. 

5) Personal Stories
Some news organizations will allow you to develop and cover your own stories. Often you will have to write and shoot this stuff. When I worked for UPI I was on "Special Assignment" (as opposed to General Assignment). Most of my work was self generated and I didn't have to shoot stuff like press conferences and mundane assignments.

Gary


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## blackandgold4ever05 (Aug 2, 2008)

Lacey Anne said:


> Jodie, you are inspiring. I have read every word you have written on this thread and then visited your site as well. Damn. I'm going to use you as an example as I set up my business. Thank you.



Same here. I am 29 years old and still haven't found a career or even working towards a career. Just take jobs that last 3 or 4 years til I move on. I am looking into taking classes in photography or just going to school. I have enjoyed takin pictures since I was a kid and have always been told that I should persue it because I have a pretty good eye for it. Jodie, at first I thought you came across as cocky, but you are not. You do have an awesome business set up and I will try to use you as an example after I hone my skills. Thanks


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## RMThompson (Aug 2, 2008)

I make money off of photography.

Specifically I photograph for www.snorgtees.com and I do some weddings, family pics, portraits for models and some various news photos and etc.

However, I do NOT make a living off of photography.

Big difference.


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## JodieO (Aug 3, 2008)

blackandgold4ever05 said:


> Same here. I am 29 years old and still haven't found a career or even working towards a career. Just take jobs that last 3 or 4 years til I move on. I am looking into taking classes in photography or just going to school. I have enjoyed takin pictures since I was a kid and have always been told that I should persue it because I have a pretty good eye for it. Jodie, at first I thought you came across as cocky, but you are not. You do have an awesome business set up and I will try to use you as an example after I hone my skills. Thanks


 
I'm sorry I sounded cocky... I guess after you have been doing this long enough, you get a little on the cold side - for example, so many people give away their work, say how fun it is to do this for a living... well after taking so many customers, getting walked on, and argued with for your pricing, you finally get cold and say, "no, I am worth what I charge, I am not giving you a deal, no I cannot keep your pictures for a year while you decide, no I will not just give you the digital negatives, no I won't take a check the day that I deliver the pictures - you have to pay and your check has to clear before I even order the pictures from the lab...."

While there are days that it is fun, ultimately, it's a job. One piece of advice I give to anyone starting out in this business is this - what's more important than your photos is your business sense. What's more important (IMO) than taking photography classes is taking business classes - learn how to run a succesful business. It goes like this...

Obviously, the best is to be the amazing photographer with great business skills but....

A sucky photographer with good business skills will do better (in most cases) than an amazing photographer with no business skills.

The business skills is what will make you a succesful business that you can make a living off of.


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## ksmattfish (Aug 3, 2008)

JodieO said:


> I'm sorry I sounded cocky...



I haven't read every post in this thread, but a quick visit to your website and it's my opinion that you get to be as cocky as you want.  Your work rocks!  

Since 2003 100% of my income has come from photography.  Mostly weddings and some portraits, a few commercial projects, and I manage to sell some as fine art.  I'm not getting rich, and I'm lousy at business, but I make more than I did at my previous job, get to write off all sorts of toys, and it's a lot more fun.


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## Hawaii Five-O (Aug 3, 2008)

Yeah  thats kinda the neat thing about photography, is you don't necessarily need a formal education in it to  "start a business". But like Jody and others have said, you should have business training  so you don't run yourself into the ground.

I haven't made any money off my photos yet, but I would like to try and sell some matted art prints to see if I can make some extra cash. I'm not aiming to make it a business though.


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## cofphoto (Aug 14, 2008)

JodieO said:


> "no, I am worth what I charge, I am not giving you a deal, no I cannot keep your pictures for a year while you decide, no I will not just give you the digital negatives, no I won't take a check the day that I deliver the pictures - you have to pay and your check has to clear before I even order the pictures from the lab...."


 
I think any one who applies for a business license to open a photography business should have this tattooed across their chest.

Jodie, you forgot to add the classic "Failure to plan on your part does not necessitate an emergency on my  part."


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## sarallyn (Aug 19, 2008)

JodieO - I want to be you.



Seriously... I'm considering going to an art school for photography. If I could do something I'm utterly passionate about and make enough money to sustain myself, I would be happy beyond belief.


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## AdrianBetti (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, it helps when someone can fully support another person while they get on thier feet wet and the business started. Thats hard to come by nowadays.


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## jayreilly (Aug 24, 2008)

i am new to this forum, but...

i am a full time professional photographer making a living in southern california, supporting a family of 4.

i shoot a mix of photography, commercial assignment, stock, editorial, weddings.


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## RainNotebook (Aug 24, 2008)

All I have to say is Kudos to you JodieO for your talent, business skills and confidence.  I've been contemplating taking some business classes and I now know that I will definitely benefit from these.  

Keep up the great work and I look forward to seeing you around inspiring me and I know others as well!


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## RainNotebook (Aug 24, 2008)

cofphoto said:


> "Failure to plan on your part does not necessitate an emergency on my part."


 

I've never heard this quote before but I am keeping it!  This tends to be a weakness for me but if I can stick to this quote I might stay sane!


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## dklod (Aug 24, 2008)

cofphoto said:


> "Failure to plan on your part does not necessitate an emergency on my part."


 
This is my favorite saying of all time...just look at my sig..

Im looking at doing something with photography once I upgrade my camera in a few months. Nothing permanent, just something on the side to fund lets face it, an expensive hobby. (though nothing more expensive than owning race horses for a hobby). I've thought about doing calenders with specific themes. I know there is not alot of margin to be made with those, but it will give me a sense of achievement if I do it. Something Im not doing right now. Maybe add some advertising at the bottom of each month to help fund it. Any thoughts on something like that??

Also, I have been asked if someone can use an image of mine for marketing. Not sure what the going rate here in Australia is for something like that. Maybe Garbz in Brissy knows.


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## myles (Aug 25, 2008)

It is difficult. I know I have been at it for 2 years now and I am just hanging on. Get some wins and things are progressing slowly. It usually takes half a lifetime before you make it in the photo biz.

Few things I see... I work 10-20 hours a day. There is always something to do (post process RAW files anyone), to learn, to market and 75% of my time is not spent with a camera. 

There is so much to learn and when you learn something new then there is usually something to buy to make that happen. I try to see the whole learning process as a right of passage.

You better be at least half way decent as a business person, period.

You better be more than a halfway decent photographer and artist and communicator and people person.


David Myles Stam


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## brileyphotog (Aug 30, 2008)

There was a thread very similar to this earlier this year and it really irritated me then too. I make a living (as in, I am a college student living completely on my own, off campus, without outside support) from a combination of wedding and sports photography. 

I live in Michigan, which as you may know is economically depressed right now (understatement of the century). If you charged $10K for a wedding here you would never book one, with the possible exception (and I mean highly unlikely) of somebody in the Detroit suburbs. One of my employers offers a package for $650, 6 hours of coverage (mileage extra) with the deal being that they only get digital copies (gallery + CD) and we do very limited post-processing. We take some pretty good pictures (IMHO & and nowhere close to Jodie) and guess what? we book tons(!) of weddings and I am eating, sheltered, and can afford new glass every now and then. Granted, I am not the business owner, which is an important distinction. 

For me, making anything over $50 an hour is pretty sweet!

I'm fairly frugal and I could probably live off of my sports photography salary (but I supplement it with writing as well). Am I rich? No. Could I support a family? No. Am I doing pretty well for a single guy in his 20's who isn't even out of school yet? I'd like to think so. 

I know a lot of pros who make a living off of pictures, and very few who get rich doing it. Most of the pros who are out there are working for AP,Getty, local newspapers, freelancing, etc, etc...not making six figures a year off of studio work. 

The fool and his money are soon parted thing was really funny to me for a different reason. My grandfather used to live in New York, and he paid $300+K for a house that would have sold for about $68K around here. Who's the sucker now?

Edit: No wonder this thread looked so familiar, it's an old one that just got dredged up again. I was actually the one who said its a crime to let a sucker keep his money originally (I think) I guess I was in a really bad mood that day


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## Bifurcator (Aug 31, 2008)

I don't understand. That all sounds sensible to me. It all seems in line with what every other sensible person posted. So why did this thread and the one prior irritate you?


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## Snyder (Aug 31, 2008)

Im 21 and I make a good living from doing photojournalism and combat photography. I also do television commerials and videography projects. I would love to do it for the rest of my life but its takes alot out of you and its very diffacult to have a family life (the whole combat photography).


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## abraxas (Aug 31, 2008)

I make a living off of my creative abilities, which includes photography.

I have everything I need- which is all that I want. All I want is to make a living from my creative abilities.


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## floor6 (Sep 1, 2008)

JodieO said:


> A sucky photographer with good business skills will do better (in most cases) than an amazing photographer with no business skills.




absolutely. unless you are well known or well connected, it's a numbers game. you have to make the calls and network as much as possible. if you take your ambition seriously, others will begin to also. there's lots of bread-and-butter photowork out there. not owning a hasselblad 500 or a D3 doesn't prevent anyone from getting on the pitch. just a question of choosing a hunting-ground to match your capabilities. everything we own was photographed sometime to sell it to us. much of it not high-res, glossy or artistic. connect with the people/businesses who need it, and they need to know you exist too. a realistic business-plan and a well-targeted+well defined product/service..if you work 7 days a week with that, you WILL make your own luck..


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