# Emotional support animals & airplanes



## KmH (Feb 4, 2018)

You may have seen recent news about a woman denied boarding a commercial airliner with her emotional support peacock - for some reason.

Yesterday my sister witnessed a man denied boarding a commercial airliner with his 2 dead emotional support lovebirds.
My sister overheard the airline people telling him the airline only allowed one carrion.
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. Real life stuff: 2010 Bandundu Filair Let L-410 crash - Wikipedia
Bada bing bada BOOM!


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## limr (Feb 4, 2018)




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## compur (Feb 4, 2018)

What's an emotional support peacock?


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## limr (Feb 4, 2018)

compur said:


> What's an emotional support peacock?


 
A peacock that gives emotional support.

Where's my rimshot?


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## NancyMoranG (Feb 4, 2018)

People have gone completely off their rockers!
 It's bad enough people bring fake support animals, but at least they fit into a seat! Where the heck did she think a peacock would fit?
Just nuts...


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## compur (Feb 4, 2018)

limr said:


> compur said:
> 
> 
> > What's an emotional support peacock?
> ...



Oh.

There are lots of peacocks near my home in the nearby town of Arcadia, CA. They roam the streets, strut across people's lawns, even get up into the trees sometimes. They seem to pay no attention to people at all (or cars). They make a gawdawful noise too. I see them whenever I drive over that way. But, I've never experienced any emotional support from any of them.


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## KmH (Feb 5, 2018)

We are in the Age of Entitlement.
There are also people with fake service animals.


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## compur (Feb 6, 2018)

And real animals with fake people.


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## smoke665 (Feb 6, 2018)

I know of a woman, who is otherwise normal that has a pet chicken that lives in the house with her. Not sure of the emotional support aspect, just believe she may have a few brain cells misfiring.


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## Overread (Feb 6, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> I know of a woman, who is otherwise normal that has a pet chicken that lives in the house with her. Not sure of the emotional support aspect, just believe she may have a few brain cells misfiring.



You think that's bad?
I know people who have cats and dogs - in the same house living with them!!

And parrots and fish and heck someone somewhere on this very forum has FERRETS living in the house!



As for emotional support animals that's a huge kettle of fish. There's no denying that some people do benefit from the system, but that there's a huge range of people who either abuse it or who are liars with regard to it. The Pheasant example also begs the question - the idea of an emotional support animal is to allow the person to more normally function in society whilst overcoming issues that they have; so a dog or such is very suitable as it allows you to operate fairly normally. A pheasant however, is not really the sort of animal that can just go anywhere or be accepted - and as said they can be very loud when they want too.


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2018)

NancyMoranG said:


> ...Where the heck did she think a peacock would fit?...


I'd suggest under a nice cloche...


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## Gary A. (Feb 6, 2018)

compur said:


> limr said:
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> > compur said:
> ...


When I lived on the Palos Verdes Peninsula, there were peacocks and peahens all over the neighborhoods. I quickly grew to hate them and love our native coyotes. As you stated they would strut around in the middle of the jammin' street making a statement of "I'm a peacock and you're not." They will fly up to rooftops, they are loud, they have no sense of sleep/wake-up time and it is a wonder of patience that my car never overheated from peacock feathers blocking airflow to the radiator.


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## Gary A. (Feb 6, 2018)

tirediron said:


> NancyMoranG said:
> 
> 
> > ...Where the heck did she think a peacock would fit?...
> ...


... or a coffin.


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## Cortian (Feb 6, 2018)

Seen at the local farmer's market...


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## Gary A. (Feb 6, 2018)

Overread said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a woman, who is otherwise normal that has a pet chicken that lives in the house with her. Not sure of the emotional support aspect, just believe she may have a few brain cells misfiring.
> ...


I believe they are called a Therapy Animal.  I additionally believe there is no certification to be a therapy animal. So technically a peacock or a slug can be a therapy animal.  Service Dogs go through specialized training and receive, upon graduation, a certificate from an accredited dog training facility. I saw a tiny little lapdog in a wine tasting room with a "Service" vest on.  I had my dog with me but we stayed at a table outside.  When the Service dog passed Maggie, (my pooch), it started acting up and wanted to play.  Every Service Dog I've ever encountered, when working was completely focused on the task at hand and totally ignored other dogs and cats and peacocks to give full attention to their job. Go figure.


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## Overread (Feb 6, 2018)

Aye and its clear that with no formal certification there's probably a lot of emotional support animals which are only emotional support animals when the owner encounters a "no dog/pet" sign on a building or other place. Which casts a bad light on those who are legitimate. 

That said, again, they are emotional support rather than guide dogs; in theory the owner should be able to operate without them -barring all but the most extreme of cases (which should be very few).


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## smoke665 (Feb 6, 2018)

Overread said:


> think that's bad?
> I know people who have cats and dogs - in the same house living with them!!



Cats and dogs (if properly house broken) don't normally poop wherever/wherever they please, like chickens. Needless to say if I went to this woman's house, I wouldn't sit on the furniture.


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## smoke665 (Feb 6, 2018)

I had the opportunity to visit with a Vet with a brain stem injury that caused him to suddenly fall without warning. His service dog was trained to stay very close to the man at all times, and could sense by smell and actions ahead of episodes. On sensing the dog would alert, stop the man and push him to a safe spot. Beautiful dog who was not agressive, but would ignore any attempts to be friendly, or anything else around.


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> I had the opportunity to visit with a Vet with a brain stem injury that caused him to suddenly fall without warning. His service dog was trained to stay very close to the man at all times, and could sense by smell and actions ahead of episodes. On sensing the dog would alert, stop the man and push him to a safe spot. Beautiful dog who was not agressive, but would ignore any attempts to be friendly, or anything else around.


As part of my support to Veterans, I do work with Vancouver Island Compassion Dogs.  These are fully accredited service dogs primarily in support of Veterans with PTSD and other serious issues.  They are amazing; on the job, they're 100% serious and focused, but take the vest off and they turn back in to a dog in nothing flat!


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## smoke665 (Feb 6, 2018)

tirediron said:


> but take the vest off and they turn back in to a dog in nothing flat!



I didn't know that. Guess they would have to be allowed down time. Worked with the State Fire Marshal a few times that had a dog trained to find accelerants . His reward was a plain red ball. Always felt like he was getting shafted, but the dog thought that ball was the greatest reward in the world.


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> tirediron said:
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> 
> > but take the vest off and they turn back in to a dog in nothing flat!
> ...


There are two members of the Wounded Warriors Run team with service dogs.  When they're dressed they're like bankers toward each other.  "Morning Chico"... "Morning Sarge..." and they carry on with their humans.  Take their vests off and tell them to go play, you'd think they were totally untrained puppies!


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## pixmedic (Feb 6, 2018)

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


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## ceemac (Feb 6, 2018)

I wanted to fly to Mexico and take my wife as an emotional support animal. But if it didn't work for the peacock, I guess I don't stand a chance. She'd want to take luggage.


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## snowbear (Feb 6, 2018)

How about a _physical_ support snake?  Sucker's been dead for a few years and is stiff as a long, skinny board; I use it for a cane.


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## Dave442 (Feb 6, 2018)

Apparently in Colorado it is common to have your support animal with you everywhere.


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## limr (Feb 6, 2018)

espresso2x said:


> Even shellfish are gonna try to mussel in on the action
> 
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You're going to make me break it out a second time in the same thread, aren't you? AREN'T YOU???


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## Overread (Feb 7, 2018)

Dave442 said:


> Apparently in Colorado it is common to have your support animal with you everywhere.



I saw a bit on the news a few years back where they were running trials to use miniature horses as proper service/guide animals. The 25-30 or so lifespan being a big bonus over dogs who live half to a third of that period of time; plus with the strict requirements having another breed of animal means enlarging the potential pool of candidates.


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## compur (Feb 7, 2018)

I see "service animal" vests and patches for sale on eBay.

But, of course no pet owner would ever think of using such a thing falsely.


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## Gary A. (Feb 7, 2018)

Overread said:


> Dave442 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently in Colorado it is common to have your support animal with you everywhere.
> ...


... A horse is nuthin' more than a big dog.


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## Gary A. (Feb 7, 2018)

compur said:


> I see "service animal" vests and patches for sale on eBay.
> 
> But, of course no pet owner would ever think of using such a thing falsely.


Never ... lol.


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## smoke665 (Feb 7, 2018)

Gary A. said:


> horse is nuthin' more than a big dog.



Having had several horses in my younger days they are similar to dogs in forming attachments to their owners.


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## Dave442 (Feb 7, 2018)

Gary A. said:


> Overread said:
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> > Dave442 said:
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This little horse was much better behaved than the two dogs that started barking at each other during the next stop at a home depot (there were three dogs in the home depot with another two outside). I have five dogs around the house, I suppose when I go to the store it is to get away from them for a while.


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## smoke665 (Feb 8, 2018)

Last month while we were traveling we were pleasantly surprised at the number of places (towns, parks, malls, stores and even restaurants) in Florida that were dog friendly. Unfortunately as we got deeper into the state around the more populated areas there were warnings up everywhere about Canine Flu. That's something we hadn't had Sadie vaccinated for, so she didn't get to go much.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 8, 2018)

How about a cuddlekin instead? 

Stuffed Peacocks and Plush Peacocks at Stuffed Safari 

If someone cannot cope with traveling without their pet peacock maybe they really need to rethink getting on a plane - maybe try a train? a bus? something, leave the pet with a caregiver. Good grief.


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## Jamesaz (Feb 8, 2018)

Caged poultry in overhead racks was a given on central American buses a while back. There was more legroom though.


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## smoke665 (Feb 9, 2018)

Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!

Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges


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## terri (Feb 9, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!
> 
> Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges


If that happened the way the student claims it did, that is revolting.   Not funny to me at all.


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## smoke665 (Feb 9, 2018)

terri said:


> If that happened the way the student claims it did, that is revolting. Not funny to me at all.



Doesn't really matter if an airline employee said it or not (which the airline denies by the way), but if I had an "emotional support" animal, no way in H*** someone would convince me to destroy the animal in such a way. I fault the idiot girl. Had an employee told me I couldn't take Sadie, we would have left together.


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## terri (Feb 9, 2018)

We don't know the whole story, I will agree.   But there's a big difference between how an older person such as yourself, with more resources and choices on how to get out of such a situation, and a young college student who apparently believed what she was being told and, according to the story, tried without success to get some help.

Placing blame on the victim like this seems callous, at best.


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## terri (Feb 9, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > If that happened the way the student claims it did, that is revolting. Not funny to me at all.
> ...


And how does this hifalutin' reply excuse your amusement over the story, regardless of how it went down? 

Guess we have different ideas of what's funny.


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## limr (Feb 9, 2018)

When I was in college in Florida, I bought a parakeet. Macoco. I loved that little bird so much. When I flew home for the holidays that year, I brought her with me. I put her in a shoebox, poked holes in the top and kept it secured with rubber bands, and brought her on the plane with me. No problem (well, except I made the holes too big and she almost escaped in the plane!  Had to keep them partially covered with paper.) When I was flying back, the woman at the ticket desk at the gate told me that I had to buy a ticket for the bird. I didn't have to on the way up so I was confused. As it turned out, I never had to buy her a ticket after that, either, even from the same airport, but I didn't know that at the time, so I felt like I had no choice but to pony up extra money for a ticket for my parakeet. I still remember it was $50, which was a huge deal for me at the time.

Thank goodness I wasn't being asked to do anything worse than pay extra money, but even if I had been told to essentially kill my bird, I was lucky enough to have choices. My family was close by and I could ask for help. I was also not old enough to rent a car, but maybe I could have taken a train or something. I would not have flushed my bird. Still, by refusing to do so, I would have been causing myself and my parents more stress and expense. I was lucky enough to have family who would have understood and the ability to deal with that expense and stress.

This girl didn't have the same choices - and in fact felt like she had _no_ choices. She obviously had difficulty standing up for herself (not everyone has the confidence or ability to stand up to authority figures.) That's called being young and scared and inexperienced, not idiotic.


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

terri said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > terri said:
> ...



Funny as in sarcasm with the way this world works. This was not a poor little defenseless victim. She was a college student who should have been charged with animal cruelty. Like so many today she's trying to become the victim now to escape the consequences of her actions.  How did she get to the airport? She had friends if she would have waited. She had money to rent a car, she could have taken a cab to a hotel, or a cab to a bus station, she could have called her parents, or as the article pointed out, "PETA Senior Vice President Daphna Nachminovitch told Fox News: "One phone call could have saved this animal, or some kind person at the airport could have helped".  Instead she did something horrible so it didn't affect her plans. 

So yeah I think its funny, funny that she tried to play the "emotional support" game and it didn't work. Funny that when it came to her having to act like a responsible pet owner she bailed, so it wouldn't interfere with her selfish plans. Funny that she somehow thinks she can lay the blame for her actions on someone else. Instead of press coverage for her sueing the airline, how about press coverage of her being issued a citation for her action maybe then I wouldn't think it funny.


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## BananaRepublic (Feb 10, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!
> 
> Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges



I got a good core workout when I heard on the radio what the girl did with the hamster  , what a dope


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

I find it amazing how you are able to know _exactly_ what was in the mind of a 21-year-old woman. How do you do it? It must be a gift to be able to know exactly what she was thinking and feeling, what her capability of making desicions was like. 

See, I have to get information from, say, reading the article.

She was in college in PA. The Baltimore airport looks like the closest big airport to the college town, but still a couple of hours away. She was trying to get home to Miami. So her "selfish plans" were to GO HOME. 

She is 21 years old. You have to be 25 to rent a car. We have no idea how much money she had, or how supportive her parents would have been if she called them for money. Maybe she did call them and they were jerks to her. Or maybe they were sympathetic but couldn't help. *We don't know.*

The airline says that no one who worked for them told her to do this. Well, if they said so, it MUST be true, right? I mean, a company would NEVER try to cover their asses to avoid liability, RIGHT? So did an employee actually instruct the woman to flush her hamster? *We don't know. 
*
So, "playing the emotional support card"? *How are we supposed to know?* Are you all mind readers? You know _exactly_ what it feels like to be a scared 21-year-old woman far away from home? You would know _exactly_ how to handle the situation *if you were her instead of you?*

She's been called an "idiot" and a "dope" in the past couple of posts. Maybe she is actually not particularly smart and isn't very good at thinking through problems and finding alternatives. *We don't know that either.* But even if she is, how in the hell does that also mean she is being callous and manipulative and lying about the whole thing "for her selfish plans"?

I find the massive assumptions and the lack of compassion quite disturbing.


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## tirediron (Feb 10, 2018)

limr said:


> ...She's been called an "idiot" and a "dope" in the past couple of posts. Maybe she is actually not particularly smart and isn't very good at thinking through problems and finding alternatives. *We don't know that either.* But even if she is, how in the hell does that also mean she is being callous and manipulative and lying about the whole thing "for her selfish plans"?
> 
> I find the massive assumptions and the lack of compassion quite disturbing.


Do you really think that someone who is (1) an adult; and (2) intelligent enough to attend post-secondary education would not have the perspicacity and awareness to understand what she was doing?  I'm sorry, but irrespective of WHAT she was told, and WHAT her plans were, her actions were wrong on EVERY level.  She wants to go home?  Sure, that's nice.  She can't take her pet?  Okay... well, two choices:  Change her plans or...  change her plans.  When you take on the responsibility of animal stewardship, it's not a "while it's convenient" or "as long as I feel like it", it's a "til the end" responsibility.  The size, species or type of animal is utterly irrelevant.  This was a callous, cruel and utterly inhumane act for which she should be punished severely!


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

Clearly, you all are convinced that you know more about her and her situation better than anyone else. Must be nice to be so confident in your snap judgments of everyone who is not you.

So I am done talking to stone walls.


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

limr said:


> I find it amazing how you are able to know _exactly_ what was in the mind of a 21-year-old woman. How do you do it? It must be a gift to be able to know exactly what she was thinking and feeling, what her capability of making desicions was like.



Since you chose to write out a thoughtful response rather than slam a "disagree X" without explanation, you deserve an equally thoughtful reply, Obviously we can't know the individual girls thoughts, because none of us have the ability see across the universe into the mind of another person, but as adults when you don't have all the facts, you can arrive at a logical conclusion by application of Logical Reasoning. I won't bore you with  definitions as I suspect you are familiar with it.

1. At 21 years of age, you are considered an adult able to share in all the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES of adulthood. The law makes no distinction between the mental capabilities of the individual, unless same individual is mentally impaired. By the article, we know that she was 21 years of age (an adult by legal definition). Two, she was enrolled in college, which implies some level of mental competence. Which leads to Assumption #1 - She was an adult capable of making rational decisions.

2. She obviously didn't walk to the airport from her college. She either took commercial transportation (which would imply financial ability), either on her own or by her parents support, or a friend transported her. She tried to rent a car (which again implies financial ability). She would have learned on check in shortly after arrival, that the hamster was not going to be allowed on board. If a friend did transport her  they should not have been that far away and could have returned to help. Based on the fact that she would have had to have some type of financial ability to rent the car, she could have also taken a shuttle from the airport to a motel.  That leads to Assumption #2 -  She had transportation options. 

3. No where in the article does it say that she contacted any humane societies, shelters, or kennels. In the article there is in fact a negative response from PETA, therefore Assumption #3 - She made no attempt to contact a place of shelter for the animal.

4. No where in the article does it say that someone "forced" her to destroy the animal. In fact she is quoted as saying "she thought it would be less cruel to flush it than release it". So Assumption #4 - She made the decision to flush the animal.

I can probably come up a with a few more known facts and assumptions based on those facts, but you get the idea. I think there's enough given facts to deduce logically that *she committed a cruel an inhumane act by her own accord.* Going one step further and applying Inductive Reasoning you can see a sufficient pattern or a trend then generalizing and extrapolating the information, to again conclude that *she committed a cruel and inhumane act by her own accord.* Finally by Abductive Reasoning you can ascertain from the assumptions and conclusions already arrived at that there is sufficient information to arrive at a conclusion based on probabilities, that* she committed a cruel and inhumane act by her own accord.*

So while I can't say 100% for sure what was in the girls mind, I can deduce with great accuracy her actions. Letting this ADULT off with excuses is not something I or any other rational thinking individual should do, she should be ticketed, not let off the hook.


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## Derrel (Feb 10, 2018)

I was a Resident Assistant at the University of Oregon in the mid-1980's...renting a car for dorm trips was basically an impossibility due to age restrictions. Out of 85 students in my dorm, we had _one_ who was able to rent a vehicle for one of our trips. We always had to rely on university-provided vans.

Typically, one needs to be 25 years of age, and have a major credit card in one's own name, to rent a vehicle. The credit card, not debit card, in one's OWN name, is the sticky point for many younger people.

Seems like the idea that this young woman (not a _girl_) could have rented a car keeps coming up in your personalized intellectual narrative, and I'm here to say, car rental was likely not an option, and if it was, it would likely have been presented to her as major hassle.

Minimum Age Policies & Guide to Underage Car Rental

She may be an ADULT as you put it...but to the car rental companies, no, she's not yet there...they don't rent to youngsters without substantial assurances, and extra, daily fees--if they will rent at all.

I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

This isn't just about intelligence or options that seem clear to other people who have never been even remotely in situations like this. 

She reportedly had medical issues that gave her so much anxiety that her doctor approved a support animal to help with that anxiety. Sure, everyone gets anxious with medical issues, but when there'a also an underlying anxiety disorder, the stress reaches levels that leaves a person much less able to function.

Regardless of her intelligence level, do you know how anxiety can alter a person's thought process? How it might affect a person's ability to think rationally? How it may affect her ability to react to the authority - real or otherwise - of the airline employee?

I have been closer to this situation than any of you who are ready to crucify this young woman. This could have meant that I would be even harder on her, because I know that I would not have killed my bird if the airline employee told me to. I think it's awful that she came to the conclusion that she did and agree that it was the wrong thing to do. But I also remember how stressful it was to be placed in even a very mild version of her situation. And I am also quite aware that I am not her, and I don't know her other circumstances or issues that she is dealing with, so no, I refuse to heap criticism and blame on her.

I just feel sadness both at her actions and at the rush to label her a monster.

Influence of Anxiety on Cognitive Control Processes - Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Psychology

_"Experiencing elevated levels of anxiety affects how individuals see and respond to their world. As a result, a considerable amount of research has been completed to increase our understanding of how anxiety affects cognitive processes. This literature has indicated that individuals with elevated anxiety devote their attention toward threatening images and words, at the expense of ongoing activities (Bar-Haim, Lamy, Pergamin, Bakermans-Kranenburg, & IJzendoorn, 2007). In addition, emotional information is maintained in our thoughts, which can lead to impaired concentration (Eysenck, Derakshan, Santos, & Calvo, 2007), as well as deficits in our ability to notice and correct any resulting mistakes (Olvet & Hajcak, 2009). Therefore, elevated levels of anxiety (i.e., high trait anxiety), as well as anxiety disorders, are characterized by biases in both automatic and strategic ways in how one perceives their world (Bar-Haim et al., 2007). These biases are displayed to stimuli relevant to their fears. For example, individuals with social anxiety disorder are characterized by biases related to social rejection, and individuals with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are associated with biases related to trauma-relevant stimuli (e.g., Yiend, 2010)."_


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 10, 2018)

I don't think we necessarily know the whole story. What adds to that is for example I've noticed articles on the Fox News website that seem to be rewritten from other sources and the info. seems inaccurate or inconsistent. (And I don't know who's writing some of them because they sure as heck aren't written by journalists or writers, not if I'm mentally proofreading as I go... getting off my soapbox now).

What I wonder about is a seeming lack of planning if leaving school the week before Thanksgiving knowing you're going to miss the last couple of weeks or so of the semester and would need to make arrangements for missed classes/assignments... and if not for the medical appt. instead if she was just going home for the weekend and coming back, she'd still need to be making arrangements for the pet during break in another couple of weeks or so.

I know universities have something in place for students who have a medical situation to make up school work, and there must be an office/dept. that provides support to students. If this was an urgent medical situation, didn't she think to try to figure out if someone could take care of the pet for the time being til she could make further arrangements?

It's unfortunate she hadn't thought this through a little more - and just googled the policy on the airlines' site to make sure (which took me about a minute). It probably would have been better to have made plans whether to board the pet til next semester or take it home and how to get it there.

I wondered too, somebody brought her to the airport, somebody at home will be picking her up, most people have cell phones... wouldn't she have had to call someone anyway that she was taking a later flight? If she was able to talk to a reporter, then couldn't she have talked to someone to help her figure out what to do (if worrying about her medical situation and needed help figuring out what to do?).
edit - I think this is a red flag to me, talking to reporter(s)... I don't get that being the thing to do after a traumatic situation. I don't know...

I imagine there will be more that will come out later because some of this seems like there's something missing, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop.


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## Derrel (Feb 10, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:
			
		

> >>SNIP>>I imagine there will be more that will come out later because some of this seems like there's something missing, kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop.



Wait...you're not going to soundly condemn her, based on some half-baked article? What nerve you have! [insert heavy sarcasm emoji here >   x   <  ]


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> I don't think we necessarily know the whole story. What adds to that is for example I've noticed articles on the Fox News website that seem to be rewritten from other sources and the info. seems inaccurate or inconsistent. (And I don't know who's writing some of them because they sure as heck aren't written by journalists or writers, not if I'm mentally proofreading as I go... getting off my soapbox now).
> 
> What I wonder about is a seeming lack of planning if leaving school the week before Thanksgiving knowing you're going to miss the last couple of weeks or so of the semester and would need to make arrangements for missed classes/assignments... and if not for the medical appt. instead if she was just going home for the weekend and coming back, she'd still need to be making arrangements for the pet during break in another couple of weeks or so.
> 
> ...



It's true - there are a lot of questions about this, which is why I don't understand or agree with the instant pile of judgement thrown at her.

The point of a support animal is to have it with you, so if she was going home for a quick weekend home before finals, it would make sense to me that she would want the hamster with her instead of leaving it in the care of someone else. The article said that she checked with the airline to make sure she could travel with the animal, and they said okay. So she _was_ trying to make arrangements ahead of time.

I find it confusing that first she was labeled an idiot, but then it was argued that she _must_ be smart enough since she's in college. Once again, intelligence levels are not the issue: it's the ability to think critically, consider alternatives, and make logical desicions, all in the midst of a very stressful situation that may have been made worse by a possible underlying anxiety disorder that would have affected a person's ability to make use of these skills. I work with college students every day. Even in the best of times, these skills are not as well-developed as some here think they are or should be.


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

Derrel said:


> I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...



The point was not that she could or could not rent the car, but that in order to rent the car she had to have some form of financial ability which would have given her access to the option I pointed out.



limr said:


> She reportedly had medical issues that gave her so much anxiety that her doctor approved a support animal to help with that anxiety. Sure, everyone gets anxious with medical issues, but when there'a also an underlying anxiety disorder, the stress reaches levels that leaves a person much less able to function



You were quick to point out my lack of understanding her state of mind, but yet you seem to be assuming that you know the level of anxiety she was experiencing. Another point to my reasoning. My son when he was about 13-14 was just sure he wanted a hamster as a pet. A friend of his had one cage, food, toys, everything for free. We allowed him to get it under the rule, that he had to care for it, clean the cage, and if he found himself unable to care for it, would have to find a new home. I can tell you that was the nastiest creature, even with daily cage cleaning it stunk up the house and noisy. They are vocal. It took about 3 weeks, and son was ready to give it up. Took a couple days, and $10 of his own money to convince another friend to take it!!! So if anxiety was her issue, then she had the wrong animal.

Whatever the girls problems the fact remains she acted irresponsibly and cruelly. My intent isn't to label her a monster, but neither, do I think excuses should be forwarded to minimize her actions.

Another article from Time. Basically the same Spirit Slams Woman Who Flushed Emotional Support Hamster


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > I have no comments on her actions nor state of mind, but just want to point out that one of your key "points" has a smoking, 12-gauge shotgun-blast hole in it...
> ...



No, I was not assuming, I was positing logical conclusions based on the available information.

Now what was that I was saying about stone walls?

Oh yeah. I'm done.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 10, 2018)

Truth will out... well, maybe not always. But maybe there's more going on with her than we know, that there's a possibly undiagnosed anxiety/other disorder of some sort. Or, there could be an attempt to get sympathy and the truth got somewhat distorted. Or we just don't yet know the whole story. 

I would think if you can't travel without the pet, you'd get on airline websites and make sure what you can/can't do (on a particular airline) before you'd be doing traveling with it. (Like Spirit - none in the category of rodents; pet birds are OK but not livestock, so don't plan to fly with your rooster or Thanksgiving turkey I guess). 

I'm this week trying to find out thru my prescription provider where to get a vaccine... was told a pharmacy is now approved... but I'm calling the pharmacy before I go to make sure. Of course that's because I've had problems with the prescription service before and know better than to just go by what one person on the phone there tells me!


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

limr said:


> I find it confusing that first she was labeled an idiot, but then it was argued that she _must_ be smart enough since she's in college. Once again, intelligence levels are not the issue: it's the ability to think critically, consider alternatives, and make logical desicions



Being the linguist I thought you would recognize #2.

*idiot*
 (ˈɪdɪət)
_n_
*1. *(Psychiatry) a person with severe mental retardation
*2. **a foolish or senseless person
*
I've seen other definitions include the "act of committing foolish or senseless acts". Correct me if I'm wrong but flushing a hamster down the toilet was pretty foolish.



limr said:


> No, I was not assuming, I was positing based on the available information.



I had to go back and read the article, but I could find no reference of an actual doctor's order, nor the presence of one when she checked in, only a vague comment of the existence of one.  Given the recent crackdowns by airlines over allowing support animals on their planes, I think at least I would have had the doctors orders with me. Without benefit of collaborative facts, it's an invalid assumption that she had disorders that would prevent her from  making logical decisions.
*
*


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## Derrel (Feb 10, 2018)

smoke665 said:


> Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!
> 
> Spirit Airlines employee told student to flush emotional support hamster down the toilet, student alleges



Okay smoke, I'll call your flushed hamster story, and raise to a naked airline passenger that forces a mid-air flight turn-around!

Naked passenger forces turnaround of Alaska Airlines flight


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 10, 2018)

And now that I think about it, even if it was the airline's fault to tell her OK when according to their policies it wasn't... I don't think she may have been getting home in time for her appt. and might have to reschedule anyway. (This was the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, call the doctor's office and see what they say.) 

So maybe the bus would take longer but might have been a possibility, she would have gotten home safely with the hamster. Maybe if she needed to reschedule, it was Thanksgiving weekend, she'd probably be looking at the next week anyway. Even when we didn't have cell phones I could find a phone booth and call someone to help me figure out what to do (when you're young and your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere and it's a little scary being stranded in the boonies). That's what I don't get, somebody just dropped her off, somebody's picking her up, why not call them and say I can't bring my hamster on the plane, what should I do?


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

Derrel said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently "emotional support" isn't worth all that much anymore!!!
> ...



Oh don't get me started on "naked people calls". I hated those, even with gloves on!!!!!!!!!!!! Had one really large sweaty naked woman in the middle of the road that took 6 of us restrain. I've broke horses that weren't as difficult as this woman.  My wife and I both responded on one that was running up and down the road like the Flash, shrieking like a banshee. Wife handed her gloves to the LEO on scene, and said either you catch her or light her up, we didn't sign up for this. There was a time when the moon was full we would have a rash of naked women calls, usually drugs were involved.


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> Truth will out... well, maybe not always. But maybe there's more going on with her than we know, that there's a possibly undiagnosed anxiety/other disorder of some sort. Or, there could be an attempt to get sympathy and the truth got somewhat distorted. Or we just don't yet know the whole story.
> 
> I would think if you can't travel without the pet, you'd get on airline websites and make sure what you can/can't do (on a particular airline) before you'd be doing traveling with it. (Like Spirit - none in the category of rodents; pet birds are OK but not livestock, so don't plan to fly with your rooster or Thanksgiving turkey I guess).
> 
> I'm this week trying to find out thru my prescription provider where to get a vaccine... was told a pharmacy is now approved... but I'm calling the pharmacy before I go to make sure. Of course that's because I've had problems with the prescription service before and know better than to just go by what one person on the phone there tells me!



Did you see the Snopes article? FACT CHECK: Did Spirit Airlines Tell a Customer to Flush Her Hamster Down the Toilet?

_"Spirit Airlines has firmly denied that their employee told Aldecosea to flush or release her pet. The airline concedes that an employee told Aldecosea over the phone that the hamster would be allowed on the flight, but says that the employee was mistaken and their policy does not allow rodents. 

At first glance Spirit Airlines’ online written policies appear at first glance to allow for an emotional support hamster. However, clicking through to “additional policies” brings up a page with a list that includes this bullet point:
_
_Spirit does not accept snakes, other reptiles, rodents, ferrets, and spiders._​_
A version of the policies cached in September 2015 did not stipulate that those specific animals were not permitted, but it is not clear when the page changed to include that information. We contacted Spirit Airlines for further information about the hamster controversy, but have not yet received a response."_

Also:

_"Adlecosea says she has a note from her doctor certifying Pebbles as an emotional support animal, and that she obtained the hamster to help her cope with a growth on her neck. The growth turned out to be benign, but still had to be surgically removed, and she was on her way to Florida to undergo surgery when the alleged incident occurred. "_


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 10, 2018)

I don't remember seeing she had surgery scheduled (and what about pre-op I wonder?). Anyway, maybe she was cutting it close to get home far enough ahead for a scheduled surgery. If it was usually a 24 hour bus ride maybe that would've been a better option in the first place; maybe leaving the weekend before the surgery (since she was making plans to be off school for apparently a couple of weeks or so) would have allowed more time. 

I don't think it really matters what a cached page from three years ago may have said according to Snopes, that's not current enough. To me it sounds like rodents are not allowed even as support pets/animals, but I'd sure be finding out. Even if she got this animal at say the beginning of the semester, you'd know you'd be needing to go home for holiday break, so why not read up on all this first and see what the policies are? and get clarification as needed? 

Seems like at best an unfortunate lack of finding out enough info. or being able to problem solve or coming up with alternate plans (in case flights get cancelled due to the weather, etc.). Well, I don't know, I just have to wonder when someone doesn't call anybody for any help figuring this out, but then goes to reporters (or as sometimes happens, gets a lawyer). If someone can do that it seems like they ought to have been able to call someone and get help instead of waiting for three+ hours in an airport and after the fact, they're capable of talking to reporters. 

Guess we'll see how it turns out and what the whole story is. There are questions in my mind about some of this. Maybe there's a need for looking at how airlines are handling this and making sure they have clear policies and guidelines and train staff better on it.


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## limr (Feb 10, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> Guess we'll see how it turns out and what the whole story is. There are questions in my mind about some of this. *Maybe there's a need for looking at how airlines are handling this and making sure they have clear policies and guidelines and train staff better on it.*



And finally someone has gotten to this point.

The other article didn't mention surgery. The Snopes article is fact-checking the story.


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## pixmedic (Feb 10, 2018)

ive seen a few online petitions calling for the girl to be charged with animal cruelty. wonder how thats going to play out.


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## smoke665 (Feb 10, 2018)

limr said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> > Guess we'll see how it turns out and what the whole story is. There are questions in my mind about some of this. *Maybe there's a need for looking at how airlines are handling this and making sure they have clear policies and guidelines and train staff better on it.*
> ...



The ADA does not cover emotional support animals "unless" they have been trained to perform a certain task. There's been some argument that in the case of anxiety attacks that the animal should be covered, however the law is clear that just "being there" doesn't qualify them. They have to be trained to perform a specific task related to the disability. It get's even crazier in that employees of companies are only allowed to ask two specific questions to determine if the animal falls under the ADA guidelines.  Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability and what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  They are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability. FAQ- Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA

Unfortunately it's left a a void where airlines, some states, and even municipalities have moved to provide some regulatory guidelines on emotional support animals. Throw in some unscrupulous internet companies providing bogus documents, and you have a recipe for confusion. 

However the point is not that regulation is needed, that's a given. Truthfully in thinking about it, I can't even say the young woman actually did the deed, as there's nothing to corroborate her story that she actually flushed the critter, only what she claims to have done. But if she did, then the point remains that she committed a cruel and inhuman act for which she should accept responsibility and pay the price for her actions whatever that may be.


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## bogeyguy (Feb 10, 2018)

KmH said:


> You may have seen recent news about a woman denied boarding a commercial airliner with her emotional support peacock - for some reason.
> 
> Yesterday my sister witnessed a man denied boarding a commercial airliner with his 2 dead emotional support lovebirds.
> My sister overheard the airline people telling him the airline only allowed one carrion.
> ...


Oh Booooo!


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## BananaRepublic (Feb 11, 2018)

BananaRepublic said:


> I got a good core workout when I heard on the radio what the girl did with the hamster , what a dope



People are getting very uptight about this story, why the women did or didnt do things. At the end of the day why do clothes irons need to come with a warning that you shouldn't iron clothes whist wearing them. Its because people are plain stupid and or they dont think for a second. Yes you could blame the airline for employing the cavity heads that gave her the green light twice in a row, ya they should be trained better.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 11, 2018)

This is something I've never heard about, and with the type of work I've done I imagine I would have read something about it but of course I'm not doing that sort of work anymore. I'm just thinking I can see how an animal/pet could be of comfort, or a companion, etc. for someone dealing with a trauma or emotional distress to have a little furry friend to make you feel better. But if it's to the point that the person can't manage without it for a time there may be more going on with the person. 

I was thinking, arrangements would have to be made depending on the surgery, how long someone would be in the hospital, how soon afterwards they'd be able to resume caring for the pet/animal, etc. I'd just think for support for a relatively short term medical situation (meaning not having a diagnosis of a long term emotional disorder) that someone could manage without it for a time. Or there may be a need for other coping mechanisms.

This just got me thinking of some kids that I've worked with that had behaviors or needs that interfered with their development. It sometimes was a matter depending on the diagnosis of figuring out what would work for them in a supportive way, so they could cope with times of overstimulation or being overwhelmed, in a relatively age appropriate way as much as possible. Sometimes it'd be a matter of trying more functional ways of support or finding substitutes for impractical items to take along for comfort, that were more workable for the family to support their child when they're going places. 

I wonder what she does going to class, does she leave it at her apt. or wherever? If a young adult/college student can't do that then even if it was a short term medical situation, that seems like it could be heading into something possibly dysfunctional that shows a need for other support and coping mechanisms. 

Maybe this is new enough that there aren't yet a lot of coping techniques being taught or offered to people dealing with anxiety or trauma, etc. I read too that regulations were eased up and since then there have people taking advantage of it, just wanting to bring pets along. Hope some good comes out of this.


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## smoke665 (Feb 11, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> I read too that regulations were eased up



To the contrary, most airlines have been tightening regulations.

Following peacock fiasco, United Airlines tightens policy for comfort animals
Delta tightens leash on comfort animals on flights, with rules for lack of federal regulation

Several issues going on here. While the individual may need a comfort animal, what about the comfort of the other passengers on the plane. Depending on the seat arrangement a 737 can hold over 200 passengers and 747 can hold over 600. These people have rights also. Last thing I'd want is peacock crapping on me from the next seat!!!

The other thing is the money issue, airlines are claiming that people are claiming these are emotional support animals to get out of paying the $75-$100 up charge. I  read that Delta alone transports in excess of 250,00 a year in this country.

Then, like all thing, you have a few individuals who will ruin it for all that truly need a support animal, by bringing wild, crazy things on as "support animals". I mean seriously, if they can't travel without a menagerie or forest critters, or farm animals, they might want to consider other forms of transport.

I read that there was a panel of federal regulators and airlines empowered last year to develop a set of regulations, which are sorely needed, but there has not been an accord. At the least I think if there are new regulations, you will see severe limitations on the types of animals that can fly in the cabin, require documentation on the animal (verification of need from doctor, training and health certifications on the animal)and likely have to pay for those that are allowed.


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