# Photographers that taunt you



## fjrabon (Apr 12, 2015)

So, I just finished up re-reading/viewing Alex Webb: The Suffering of Light and man, that dude just taunts me.  How he manages to get that much going on with his images, while keeping good composition, nearly perfect application of color and still maintain great tonal depth is just stunning.  He tends to not worry about light as much as most, so that's one thing he's often willing to punt on, but man, still, it's so daunting to see images he managed to pull off, when I'm doing everything I can to get two people to work in a street frame (or even one for that matter).  

Like there are times when I just think "if I tried to put any of these ideas into play in my own photography, disaster would only ensue, I just simply can't do this type of thing."  That's what I mean by taunting.  I love his work so much, but I don't even know what I can even learn from it.

So who is a photographer that taunts you?


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## tirediron (Apr 12, 2015)

All of them.


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## 480sparky (Apr 12, 2015)

None of them.  I follow my own path.


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## fjrabon (Apr 12, 2015)

480sparky said:


> None of them.  I follow my own path.


I'm not trying to copy anybody, I'm talking about photographers that you almost feel like you can't even learn from.  Or do you not study any other photographers at all?


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## 480sparky (Apr 12, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> ........ Or do you not study any other photographers at all?



Nope.


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## table1349 (Apr 12, 2015)

Why study photographers when there is so much to study and learn about photography.


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## fjrabon (Apr 12, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Why study photographers when there is so much to study and learn about photography.


because you can learn from them?


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## SCraig (Apr 12, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> because you can learn from them?


Only if you wish to emulate their style.

I'm with Sparky.  While I may admire the efforts of other photographers I never actually "Study" them.  I shoot things the way *I* want them to be and as long as I'm happy with the results that's all that matters to me.


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## fjrabon (Apr 12, 2015)

SCraig said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > because you can learn from them?
> ...


I think you can learn a lot from photographers without emulating their style.  Artists of all types study their predecessors.


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## 480sparky (Apr 12, 2015)

I guess I'm not an artist.


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## runnah (Apr 12, 2015)

Oh god I know! Not a day goes by where a famous photographer doesn't drive by my house shouting obscenities.


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## tirediron (Apr 12, 2015)

runnah said:


> Oh god I know! Not a day goes by where a famous photographer doesn't drive by my house shouting obscenities.


Nice of you to think of me as 'famous', but that's really a bit of an exaggeration!


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## ruifo (Apr 12, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> So who is a photographer that taunts you?




Sebastião Salgado. I respect him and his work so much. I feel myself taunted by his amazingly great work. Big fan!


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## rexbobcat (Apr 12, 2015)

It depends on what you mean by taunt. Some photographers are so far removed from the norm that I don't really bother with envy. I'm talking about those photographers who take paid trips with 3-8 assistants, $50,000 of photo equipment, and models or subjects that they've had help finding/hiring.

Yeah, I'd love to have those resources, but at the same time, they're such outliers that I'm not holding my breath.

I'm more intrigued by those photographers who are a little less showboat-y such as Joe McNally. If I had half his skill, I'd be happy.


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## Gary A. (Apr 12, 2015)

We called them 'Shooters'.  I mentioned this in another thread. When on a big assignment, photogs from other organizations show up. Usually, there is a lot of wait time while shooting a story ... and all us photogs would hang. One of my 'taunting' photogs is Larry Burrows ... he taunted most everyone. When he walk by he always said hi ... and someone would say "You know who that was?". Someone else would say, "Larry Burrows ... he's a Shooter." Then we'd all get depressed and experience a collective taunt.

For me, there is nothing wrong in emulating. You learn a lot by doing so. If you do it right, if you really get your feet into ... say Alex Webb's shoes ... you can feel what Webb felt and sorta see how Webb sees ... it can be very illuminating and helpful. I would often ask myself "How would David Douglas Duncan shoot this or How would Burrows shoot that ...". It would help me see stuff in a different light and help me focus on particular elements of the image that I may overlook in the bustle of meeting a deadline. (In Duncan's case, I'd remember to give special attention to the eyes, as an example.) 

I remember chatting with a reporter, she was good, Pulitzer Prize good. She told me when she found a particularly good story, one that really 'taunted' her, (my word not hers ... well actually it's fjrabon's word), she would type it. She'd type it all, the entire story. It helped her become a better writer. Emulation helped me become a better photographer.


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## e.rose (Apr 12, 2015)

tirediron said:


> All of them.



Agreed. 

It depends on the day and my mood, but especially recently when I've been dealing with some... internal... emotional and mental turmoil, I've been having this weird mix of, "God I should just quit, why am I even trying/wow this really inspires me" every time I see someone's work, or a concept that I love. It's never one emotion or the other, this this odd mix of both, that I can't really suss out.

There are plenty of people out in the world that I admire that I don't know that make me feel this way, but my one friend makes me feel this way like... daily. Every time we work together, or he posts something new. I think more than his skill in general, I'm more jealous of how creative he is and frustrated at my own lack of creativity.

I can shoot. I can make things pretty. But I'm starting to feel like everything I do is all very vanilla and I hate it.


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## Vtec44 (Apr 12, 2015)

Inspire is probably the word I'd use when I look at other photographer's work.


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## gsgary (Apr 13, 2015)

First off to shoot like Alex you will need a 35mm prime lens thats what he mostly uses on a Leica but is given lots of different cameras to use and review


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## DanOstergren (Apr 13, 2015)

Lara Jade and Michael Thompson. Both are huge inspirations for me, and I feel like following their work so closely helped me develop a personal style of my own that I really like. That said, I envy them because they are where I want to be in my career, and I want it now. That comes with time though; I've rarely heard of a photographer who hasn't had to work their ass off in order to be getting those high budget shoots that will without a doubt get published in iconic magazines. I will be there one day though, that is for certain. Unless I go blind or die or something horrendous and dramatic.

If I may make a comment on something you said:
"Like there are times when I just think "if I tried to put any of these ideas into play in my own photography, disaster would only ensue, I just simply can't do this type of thing." .
You really have to get rid of any of that sort of thinking. You really have to believe that the things you want are going to happen, and that's how you will make them happen. I doubt Alex Webb always took amazing photos. You may think you suck at making a certain level of photograph, and you probably will the first few times you attempt something similar to an Alex Webb photo, but eventually you should get the hang of it.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

e.rose said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > All of them.
> ...


I think to produce great work, it is necessary but not sufficient that you be painfully self aware. This has the unfortunate side effect of near constant self doubt.

If you truly, deep down, never doubted your work, you probably wouldn't be very good, IMHO.

FWIW, I think your work is very good. And I know for a fact that the way your friend (unintentionally) makes you feel is the same way you (unintentionally) make a lot of photographers here feel.

Also there wasn't an appropriate response icon, "like" and "agree" didn't seem right. I wanted to give you a "know How you feel" haha.


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## pixmedic (Apr 13, 2015)

Braineac taunts me sometimes about my flat lighting style, but that's about it. 

I cant say I really "study" any particular photographer, but I do research ways different people light and pose subjects, which helps me develop how I want to light and pose subjects. Sometimes it works out, sometimes, eh, not so much. But ive never been afraid to try something twice.


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## Fred Berg (Apr 13, 2015)

Taunt is not a term I'd use but Bill Brandt's work fascinates.


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## Derrel (Apr 13, 2015)

There are different levels of studying things...there is the CliffsNotes (note the new spelling! CliffsNotes - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia version of studying, and there is the live-breathe-and-dream-about-it degree of absorption and dedication. There's also the, "Hey, can we meet and I can mooch off of your notes?" level, and so on. Paying attention to things; imitating and trying a few things out; modeling one's work after a certain person; and flat-out cribbing ,recreating, or copying...there, there's four different degrees of studying and putting things into practice.

I do not think that studying other photographers is a good thing or a bad thing. At worst, it leads to imitating the work of others at the expense of developing your own style and vision. At best, it can help motivate or inspire. Of course, everybody is different.

There's no one right answer. I studied the work of the master photographers of the 20th century for the first 20 years I was interested in photography, but since the development of the web, have spent less time studying other people. What they do and what I do, their world and my world, their living space and mine, all those things are so,so different. I can't be anybody but me; their motivation can not be the same as mine. For me, I don't see much point beyond Level 1 studying, which is "_Paying attention to things_". I do not want to imitate other people...I can't, and if I tried, it would just be dishonest and fraudulent. I could study Bill Joel's voice strategies, or Elton John's, or Steven Tyler's vocal techniques...it's not gonna do a damned bit of good. I can never become any of those people. Same with writing, or photography, or acting; some pursuits are based on individuality, not conformity or imitation or becoming a disciple of some guru.

We already have the world's largest collection of imitators and frauds and copycats ever to have been assembled in the history of photography. It's called 500px. Look around...tens of thousands clone troopers.


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## pgriz (Apr 13, 2015)

I think the last time I was taunted was when, in grade 6 we had a photography show-and-tell, I brought in a snapshot of a squirrel and Heather Groves (the hot girl in that class), dismissively told me that I need a better camera.  That hurt.  A lot.  Mostly because I had a crush on Heather.  She was right about the camera.


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## soufiej (Apr 13, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> I think to produce great work, it is necessary but not sufficient that you be painfully self aware. This has the unfortunate side effect of near constant self doubt.
> 
> If you truly, deep down, never doubted your work, you probably wouldn't be very good, IMHO.
> 
> ...



IMO, the difference between the successful and the student is confidence.  If you are concerned about self doubt, you are concerned about doing something in the manner of someone else.  Of being judged by their work and not your own.  Basically, you are digging in the same garden someone else already cleared and made productive.

You are not someone else in some other situation.  Listen to any musician you feel is "great".  They take command of the stage as they walk out without a shred of self doubt.  I often think of the three member group The Cream.  Composed of three absolutely fabulous musicians, the group created a new musical direction for rock music.  When they first began they say they knew about six songs they could play together but they were expected to play concerts.  So they improvised and in the process created extended solos where they had never existed before.  The 18 bar blues became the 18 minute solo.  They used musical forms which had never been put together in the same way before.  They listened and they communicated their ideas and their direction for every song while, in the beginning at least, they admired each other's talents.  What they created came from within their own individual head.  From their lead many imitators have made lots of money.

Not every player can be a Clapton, Bruce or Baker.  Such players are hearing things you and I don't understand and wouldn't comprehend if we were confronted with them.  Now, though, comprehending how  Clapton structures his solos is second nature and many players try to imitate his playing technique.  The one thing I find most annoying in an Elvis imitator.  They have a formula from which they dare not stray.

I have a good friend who is a fabulous guitarist IMO.  He simply plays with confidence that what he is about to do is right.  He's not concerned about what others are doing.  He's fully cognizant of what has come before and uses his knowledge of the past to create something new and free.  He hears music in his mind I can only hope to understand.  He has his own style and I have my own.  He doesn't haunt me or taunt me.  We play differently.  But I can easily say, he has far more confidence in what he can accomplish than I do.  One day I hope to have that same level of confidence.

Until you develop confidence in your own abilities and that your decisions are right, you will never develop your own style and you will never develop the greatest extent of confidence required to simply do the job.  If you are always looking back, you don't have time to look forward.  If you aren't looking forward, then you are only doing what others have already accomplished.  That's OK, I suppose, if all you ever want to be in another in a long line of Elvis impersonators.

Beyond that, be open to what you find today and be willing to change course at a moment's notice.  Times change.  Situations change.  If you are so convinced you are always right, you will miss what comes next.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

soufiej said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > I think to produce great work, it is necessary but not sufficient that you be painfully self aware. This has the unfortunate side effect of near constant self doubt.
> ...


[/QUOTE]
But Jimi Hendrix confessed to being constantly riddled with self doubt, despite being the greatest guitarist in the world.  I've talked to Al Di Meola before and he said that he doubts himself all the time.  Heck, James Brown was the most insanely self-confident individual I had ever met, and he still fell well short of your "complete self-confidence" paragon.  Michael Jackson, constantly doubted himself.  Christina Aguilera often doubts her abilities.  Sean Costello had so many doubts and demons about his playing that he committed suicide, despite being recognized as one of the best, most original contemporary blues guitarists in the world. Kurt Cobain had all sorts of self doubts. Keith Jarret, despite being a mostly pompous jerk still only thinks he has produced one very good album, despite being widely considered the greatest improvisational musician in the world.

Self-confidence is surely a great thing, but I think if you also don't have some measure of self-doubt, you either aren't being honest about yourself, or you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.  People who are supremely self-confident always are usually more of a dunning-kruger effect than actually ultra-talented.  Often the most talented individuals got there by being the most self-aware and the harshest self critics.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

Also to clarify the original post, I'm not talking about wanting to copy a photographer's style, per se, more about being able to pull off some of the stuff they do.  Like I don't want to ape Alex Webb, but it would be nice to be able to pull off a picture with this much going on, and have it still hold up compositionally and not descend into chaos.


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## soufiej (Apr 13, 2015)

_"Heck, James Brown was the most insanely self-confident individual I had ever met, and he still fell well short of your 'complete self-confidence' paragon."
_
You are completely misunderstanding self doubt.  Also, why is it that you are so argumentative?  Do you want to be insecure?  Seems you do.  Why can't you simply take some advice?  Because you simply want to be riddled with self doubt?  You want to be right but you also want to be filled with uncertainty.  I'm no psychologist, but I see a problem in that mindset.  Not a criticism, or being snarky.  You need to turn each comment on its head.  Where is that going to get you?  No where.  People you mention are famous because they went out and did.  Not because they sat and tried to work every angle to their advantage.  Who sits and argues incessantly?  People you've never heard of.  Just go out and do something!

Many performers are filled and even overcome by "stage fright".  Entire books have been written about the fears many performers experience just as they are about to walk on stage.    Musician's forums are packed with questions regarding how to overcome stage fright.  Stage fright is what occurs just before you go on stage.  It's not what you experience while you are performing.  A mental switch is thrown and the fear becomes the drive.  Did James Brown and Hendrix not walk on stage with the confidence they were about to do their best?  Once their foot hit the stage, their fears were what fed their performance.  Maybe you need a lesson in how to make stage fright work for you and not against you.

Yes, Clapton himself was terribly uncertain about his playing, until he heard Hendrix play.  Then he realized his direction and though he continued to evolve he had his head in the right place.  He saw a direction and he followed it.  He didn't try to be a Hendrix impersonator because that would have been impossible for Clapton to do.  But he took a lesson from Hendrix, he understood Hendrix and from that he developed a sound and a style of his own.  He wasn't taunted by Hendrix, we has moved by Hendrix.   He was insecure about his vocal performance until he began singing his own material.   He was not crippled by insecurity, he was driven by insecurity.  Someone said, "Do it", and he did it.   You need, IMO, to understand the difference.  

I can simply guarantee you that if you are doing your job - your performance - and you are not certain what you are doing is the best work you can ever do, then you will fail.  If you are not in the moment of doing the work, then you will never achieve much by always thinking you can't do the work.  Or always thinking about what someone else might have done.  This idea of self doubt is what you have between performances.   They  and their accomplishments are your stepping stones to what will make you better, not your ball and chain to hold you back from running with your ideas. 

Always ask yourself, what could I have done better?  Why did I make that decision at that point?  What would have been different if I had done so and so?  That is the development of progress.   Those are the inner dialogues you have with yourself.  Those are all healthy and useful questions.  The driven performer works on those in between performances.    Trying new techniques and ideas.  Working out how to refine what they know into a second nature instinct.

The insecurities have nothing to do with actual performance.

When you are performing, you forget all the things you've worried about as they become second nature for you to do.  And that inner dialogue is what you learn to use to drive you to better performances.  If you are only repeating what you have already done or what someone else has already done, then, where is your progress?

Possibly, you could benefit from reading how famous performers used their insecurities to their advantage and not to their disadvantage.


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## waday (Apr 13, 2015)

Pretty much every other photographer for me.

Generally speaking, I learn by seeing and doing, or in this case, seeing and trying to replicate. Getting to the point where I could replicate a photographer's photo (whether lighting, style, post-processing, composition, or whatnot), I would likely/hopefully increase my understanding just a tiny bit through the process of replication. Repeat that a bunch of times, and I may learn something. I'm not saying that I would copy, but learn via replication.

That's my take on it, anyways.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

soufiej said:


> _"Heck, James Brown was the most insanely self-confident individual I had ever met, and he still fell well short of your 'complete self-confidence' paragon."
> _
> You are completely misunderstanding self doubt.  Also, why is it that you are so argumentative?  Do you want to be insecure?  Seems you do.  Why can't you simply take some advice?  Because you simply want to be riddled with self doubt?  You want to be right but you also want to be filled with uncertainty.  I'm no psychologist, but I see a problem in that mindset.  Not a criticism, or being snarky.  You need to turn each comment on its head.  Where is that going to get you?  No where.  People you mention are famous because they went out and did.  Not because they sat and tried to work every angle to their advantage.  Who sits and argues incessantly?  People you've never heard of.  Just go out and do something!
> 
> ...


You're the one who tried to respond to me encouraging another photographer who is incredibly talented but doubts herself sometimes. You're the one who started arguing with me.

You are the one getting angsty  because I disagreed with you and telling me to go out and do something while writing like 5000 words where you attempt to psychoanalyze somebody you've never met.

Also you're really using Eric Clapton as a model of not having self doubt to help achieve fame? A guy who claims to have been driven to heroin addiction to, in part, cope with self doubt?  You also simultaneously claim Clapton had a ton of self doubt until he met Hendrix and you can't succeed with self doubt. Eric Clapton was considered the greatest guitarist in the world before he met Hendrix.


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## soufiej (Apr 13, 2015)

I don't know if this will provide some assistance or not.  

I always remember though the conflicts between Ibsen - the ultimate realist - and Strindberg - the famous expressionist who wrote one of the first surrealist plays.  Ibsen kept a photo of Strindberg above his writing desk.  His comment was he needed "the eyes of that madman" to keep him going.

A somewhat well known TV show of the '60's - Twilight Zone, I think - was a story of an Army Sargent and his foot soldiers.  One man was sent out on a suicide mission, the man the Sargent hated the most.  Later that night, as a figure waked towards the soldiers in near darkness.  The men saw it was their peer walking back from the mission, he had made it back and they were relieved and grateful as the silent figure drew near and his uniform was identified.  Then the Sargent shot and killed the man.  They were horrified and angry the Sarge had shot him dead until they reached the body only to discover the man inside the uniform was an enemy soldier dressed in the attire of another.  The Sargent explained he hated the man so much he knew it wasn't him by his walk.  

You can find what drives you in many ways.  The point is, find the drive and then act on it.


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Why study photographers when there is so much to study and learn about photography.
> ...


As a photographer I am interested in learning about photography, not about a particular photographer.   A few years back I attended the Monte Zucker's workshops.  Not because he was the father of modern wedding photography and a brilliant wedding photographer.  Hell I hate shooting wedding, I don't shoot weddings and had no interest in learning Monte's or anyone elses vision of shooting weddings.  

I went because Monte Zucker was a genius with the use of light and I wanted to learn more about they uses of light and lighting.  The things I learned aren't Monte Zucker or wedding photography specific, they were things that are usefull for photography and creating my vision.  

If you have a good working grasp of photography you can produce the kinds of images you wish to acheive.  Refining your vision is up to you.


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## soufiej (Apr 13, 2015)

_"You are the one getting angsty ... "
_
No, I'm not angry.  Why are you?

You've already dismissed anything I've said because you don't like what I've said.


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2015)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Oh god I know! Not a day goes by where a famous photographer doesn't drive by my house shouting obscenities.
> ...


Not famous.... *Infamous!!! *

You know why and some of us know why so there is no reason to bring up the reasons.  Besides there are people under the age of 18 that read this forum, and we wouldn't want to corupt them.


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## rexbobcat (Apr 13, 2015)

There's actually a psychological diagnosis for people who are successful but experience severe feelings of self-doubt. 

Impostor syndrome - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

soufiej said:


> _"You are the one getting angsty ... "
> _
> No, I'm not angry. Why are you?
> 
> You've already dismissed anything I've said because you don't like what I've said.


No, I didn't dismiss what you said because I don't like it, I dismissed what you have said because it flies in the face of my own experience, and the experience of super talented individuals I have personally met and talked to about the issue.

I said you were angsty because you, for some reason, felt compelled to make judgments about who I am as a person on a deep psychological level because I simply disagreed with you.

also, I'm not angry, though I do think it's a bit insulting to go around trying to say someone is riddled with self doubt and can never achieve success until they listen to what you are saying based on things they write on an internet message board.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> There's actually a psychological diagnosis for people who are successful but experience severe feelings of self-doubt.
> 
> Impostor syndrome - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


there's also a well known psychological diagnosis for the reverse: unskilled individuals who have no self doubt: Dunning Kruger effect

It also includes a scientifically supported explanation for why the talented may be more likely to doubt themselves, it's their very talent and artistic sensitivity that makes them more hyper aware of things they don't do perfectly and their empathy leads them to see more good in their peers.


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## rexbobcat (Apr 13, 2015)

Honestly, I've kind of stopped looking to other photographers' work for deliberate inspiration. I have the a bad habit (more like a curse) of being a people pleaser, so more often than not, I end up trying to emulate some part of a photographer's work because I like their work, and I want others to like my work in the same way. However, failure is almost imminent because I don't have their eye. I don't have their sensibilities.

Knowing this about myself, I try to look to other places for inspiration: music, painting, illustrations, short stories, other people, etc...


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > gryphonslair99 said:
> ...


I think I mostly agree with this, and feel similarly.  I never really try to copy any photographer no matter how much I love their work, and I never really dismiss any photographer no matter how much I hate their work.  I feel like you can learn something from almost every person who has put genuine effort and emotion into photography.  

A lot of times when I study photographers it's not to cop their style, or even to pick up technical tips (although sometimes it is instructive to look at a lighting diagram and compare it to the results it achieved, to better understand how to build a light field).  A lot of times it's to discover what bits and pieces I like.  I'll look at several images I really love and try to pick out what it is about each of them, any common threads in why I personally like them.  Often times it's some very minor thing.  Rarely is it that I'm copying the key to the photographer's personal style.  

This will sometimes illuminate things in my personal style that I can further develop.

I remember reading a story that Michael Freeman once told about somebody looking over his images and remarking on his stylistic signature of "almost touching."  Freeman hadn't even noticed that before, but once brought to his attention he even further refined it and made it his own.  A lot of times finding your style doesn't just happen, you have to hunt it down, I think, or at least I feel like I do.  

I think you can discover yourself and discover your own style through studying your own work, but also studying the work of others and seeing what it is that appeals to you in their work on a raw emotional level.  I like to mix the two approaches of self reflection and viewing others' work.  I feel like in studying Webb's work (as just one example of many), I can find some bits and pieces that I'd like to pull off, that ideally I'd like to be a part of my style.  I don't think Webb's work made that stuff a part of what I hope my style to be, I think viewing Webb's work helped clarify some feelings that I had deep down somewhere about my own work.


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> Honestly, I've kind of stopped looking to other photographers' work for deliberate inspiration. I have the a bad habit (more like a curse) of being a people pleaser, so more often than not, I end up trying to emulate some part of a photographer's work because I like their work, and I want others to like my work in the same way. However, failure is almost imminent because I don't have their eye. I don't have their sensibilities.
> 
> Knowing this about myself, I try to look to other places for inspiration: music, painting, illustrations, short stories, other people, etc...


Luckily, I think personally even if I ever set out to try to copy someone's work, it would still come out differently enough that it would be mine (partly through lack of skill in being able to pull it off, partly in stylistic habits so strongly engrained that I can't break them even if I want to).  I'm sort of reminded of Willie Nelson admitting that as a guitarist he tried to copy Django Reinhardt's guitar work, but he couldn't play like Django, so it created what most consider to be a very distinctive personal style.


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## soufiej (Apr 13, 2015)

_" ... I do think it's a bit insulting to go around trying to say someone is riddled with self doubt and can never achieve success until they listen to what you are saying based on things they write on an internet message board."_


I never said that.  You asked for opinions and personal experience.  You said what I posted wasn't the case because you could think of many performers who had self doubt.  Then you did, you pulled out every basket case to prove your point without ever stopping to think these are performers who simply did something.  IMO, you have no idea what Clapton's, Brown's or Hendrix's self doubt means when you say it.  Apparently, you want to wallow in self doubt.  You're offended by that statement.  Fine.  The performers you mentioned didn't care.  They went out on stage and did what they could do and did it with a tremendous amount of confidence they were doing their best.  Did they question their decisions afterward?  Yes, anyone seeking progress must.  Did they learn to work from their fears and toward their confidence?  Surely.  If you don't want to do the same, that's your decision.  If you do not wish to develop the basic freedom an eight year old experiences, that's your decision.  Actors are constantly frozen in fear of embarrassing themself.  Until they can learn to behave as though they were eight years old, they get nowhere.  I'll repeat; if you're constantly looking back, then you cannot prepare for what is about to smack you in the face.    

I simply gave my own opinion and experience based on working with a lot of students who are dealing with self doubt.  I don't think you understand the concept or how to use it to your advantage.  You take that as an insult.  Like you're the only person who has ever had self doubt.  The difference between you and anyone you've mentioned is confidence in what they are doing at the time.  And they obviously "did". 

At this point, I would say you don't want an answer, you want someone to say they totally agree with your self pity.  They have people who taunt them.  They have people who hold them back.  If I said I agreed with you and you should have self pity because you will never be them, you wouldn't like that either.  You're rather impossible to please.


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## Dave442 (Apr 13, 2015)

If they are "taunting you" then go study/practice/learn more and then go back and look at their work again. When I was first learning Spanish I was handed Gabriel Garcia Marquez book, "100 Years of Solitude", it was too much and I gave up after a month. A few years later I was able to go back and enjoy that and a number of his other books in Spanish.

I bring this up as I recently received a quote from his autobiography, "Living to Tell the Tale", where he talks about what formed him as a writer and I think it relates to what you call taunting:


"One day Jorge Álvaro Espinosa, a law student who had taught me to navigate the Bible and made me learn by heart the complete names of Job’s companions, placed an awesome tome on the table in front of me and declared with his bishop’s authority: 

“This is the other Bible.” 

It was, of course, James Joyce’s _Ulysses_, which I read in bits and pieces and fits and starts until I lost all patience. It was premature brashness. Years later, as a docile adult, I set myself the task of reading it again in a serious way, and it not only was the discovery of a genuine world that I never suspected inside me, but it also provided invaluable technical help to me in freeing language and in handling time and structures in my books."


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## gsgary (Apr 13, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> Also to clarify the original post, I'm not talking about wanting to copy a photographer's style, per se, more about being able to pull off some of the stuff they do.  Like I don't want to ape Alex Webb, but it would be nice to be able to pull off a picture with this much going on, and have it still hold up compositionally and not descend into chaos.


that shot could have been set up


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## gsgary (Apr 13, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> soufiej said:
> 
> 
> > fjrabon said:
> ...


But Jimi Hendrix confessed to being constantly riddled with self doubt, despite being the greatest guitarist in the world.  I've talked to Al Di Meola before and he said that he doubts himself all the time.  Heck, James Brown was the most insanely self-confident individual I had ever met, and he still fell well short of your "complete self-confidence" paragon.  Michael Jackson, constantly doubted himself.  Christina Aguilera often doubts her abilities.  Sean Costello had so many doubts and demons about his playing that he committed suicide, despite being recognized as one of the best, most original contemporary blues guitarists in the world. Kurt Cobain had all sorts of self doubts. Keith Jarret, despite being a mostly pompous jerk still only thinks he has produced one very good album, despite being widely considered the greatest improvisational musician in the world.

Self-confidence is surely a great thing, but I think if you also don't have some measure of self-doubt, you either aren't being honest about yourself, or you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.  People who are supremely self-confident always are usually more of a dunning-kruger effect than actually ultra-talented.  Often the most talented individuals got there by being the most self-aware and the harshest self critics.[/QUOTE]


Smoke dope for a few years and you will be very insecure


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## rexbobcat (Apr 13, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I've kind of stopped looking to other photographers' work for deliberate inspiration. I have the a bad habit (more like a curse) of being a people pleaser, so more often than not, I end up trying to emulate some part of a photographer's work because I like their work, and I want others to like my work in the same way. However, failure is almost imminent because I don't have their eye. I don't have their sensibilities.
> ...



That's the thing though. Although what I create might be different, I rarely find it to be better because it's derivative at its core. I'm subconsciously creating to the standard of the other photographer's work even when I think I'm doing something different, so I prefer to take photos without a direct and recognizable influence, because then I'm more likely to synthesize all of my acquired skills and preferences from all the works that I enjoy into something that is truly unique to me (even if it's not anything groundbreaking in the photographic world). 

That's not to say I don't study other work to figure out how to do new things. I still like to study lighting and add stuff like that to my toolbox. 

But if someone asked me whose work has influenced me the most, I probably shrug and give a neutral "I don't know. All of them."


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## fjrabon (Apr 13, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


I agree there, I don't think I see any particular photographer's influence in my actual photography and I certainly don't try to mimic photographers. 

If anybody maybe a touch of Michael Freeman influenced me, but mostly because his books were so formative for me (photographers eye, capturing light and perfect exposure mainly). But even then I don't think it's something that comes across visually so much as how I approach a shot.


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## Gary A. (Apr 13, 2015)

There is nothing new under the Sun. 

I am watching The Voice right now. There is this kid singing "Imagine" ... is he imitating, copying John Lennon? He sang a song written and made famous by someone else ... yet he put his own style on it. 

Being inspired, influenced, taunted, et cetera is all about learning ... not about copying. Replying solely upon your own machination for development ... is a long, slow and arduous learning process. I find it better to not only build upon my mistakes ... but also the mistakes and success of others.


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## ronitbajaj (Apr 14, 2015)

Nope...


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## pgriz (Apr 14, 2015)

On a slightly serious note, I find the excellence of other people's abilities to be inspiring.  It is not a criticism of my own abilities, but a reminder that there's still much to learn, to understand, and to sense.  If I see another person's work that I admire, I will often try and replicate that, not as a form of imitation, but to get into the mindset that allowed the production of that image or work.  "mindset" because there is usually a thought process, coupled with a vision, expressed with talent and skill.  By trying to replicate the process (of seeing, conceptualizing, and then executing), I usually gain an insight.  It is THIS insight that is valuable to me.  The fact that the resulting image looks like someone else's is much less important to me.


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## sashbar (Apr 14, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> So, I just finished up re-reading/viewing Alex Webb: The Suffering of Light and man, that dude just taunts me.  How he manages to get that much going on with his images, while keeping good composition, nearly perfect application of color and still maintain great tonal depth is just stunning.  He tends to not worry about light as much as most, so that's one thing he's often willing to punt on, but man, still, it's so daunting to see images he managed to pull off, when I'm doing everything I can to get two people to work in a street frame (or even one for that matter).
> 
> Like there are times when I just think "if I tried to put any of these ideas into play in my own photography, disaster would only ensue, I just simply can't do this type of thing."  That's what I mean by taunting.  I love his work so much, but I don't even know what I can even learn from it.
> 
> So who is a photographer that taunts you?



Interestingly I just recently wrote about him here and some forum members were quite dismissive which left me slightly bemused.  When I see some of his shots I want to eat them, they are that good.  So yes, Webb taunts me alright. Reminds me there are mere mortals and gods in photography.


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## Ian63 (Apr 21, 2015)

My Father  taught me  SO much ... then I developed my own style. AT any given time  I either  love  what I have  done  or  I hate  it. There  is  never  any ... middle  of  the  road  with me. One  thing I DONT want to ever do... and  that is  endlessly quote  this  and  that photographer.
We all have  our successes and  failures. Our  achievements should  always be  measured by our  own perceptions and  our  capability to learn,  and process; to achieve what WE  want for  ourselves. I am still working on that BTW.


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## Joves (Apr 21, 2015)

480sparky said:


> None of them.  I follow my own path.





480sparky said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > ........ Or do you not study any other photographers at all?
> ...



Yeah that is pretty much me as well. I am glad to also see that others have the same attitude when it comes to it. 
I like to look at photos, and have since I was a pup, but I never really had admiration for them. My grandfather handed me one of his old 120 cameras, and told me to go out and shoot. And since 67" I have been doing that on and off developing my own style, or changing it a few times. 
The only photographer that taunted me last was some young punk with a Canon. I was out during the spring runoff season to a canyon that I wanted to get a waterfall image of. Well I saw the kid shooting his shots, and I moved out of his field so I would not be in them. So I setup for my shots, and the punk purposely chose to stand right in the middle of my shot near the falls. I was about ready to toss his happy butt off the side of the canyon, but common sense told me that I did not have my remote, so I would have missed getting him going over.


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