# Tell me where did I screwed up so bad



## cauzimme (Oct 27, 2016)

Yesterday I did a Fall lifestyle inspired photoshoot. 
My friend told me, she would like to do a shoot, so I went for her because I knew she would be there. 
Unfortunately, she told me I screw up, she takes better selfie of herself and therefore she won't let me post any photo on my port, on facebook, pinterest, instagram. Basically, nowhere. I screw up, but I do like the photo, and it's hurt my ego like hell to have someone I like tell me they take better selfie than my photos. I'm crushed . 

Where did I screw up ?


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## ronlane (Oct 27, 2016)

Sorry not much time to C&C, but I'd like to see her selfies. I highly doubt they are better.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 27, 2016)

I would say you screwed up by trying to please everyone or thinking that it was possible to please everyone. I wouldn't worry about the people that aren't pleased. You only need to worry about making yourself happy with your shots and knowing you did the best you can do.
There are people in the world who just like to feel that they can do things better than anyone else even though that isn't the case.
Quite often the only way a person can elevate themselves in their own mind is to put down someone else's work.


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## limr (Oct 27, 2016)

Unless she told you something very specific that she wanted and you gave her something different, I don't see how you screwed up. I think it's a matter of ego, but not _your _ego


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## Frank F. (Oct 27, 2016)

Question: Is this some post-ironic joke or did someone really treat you so unfriendly?

I am not sure about the styling details in #1
I see serious camera shake in #2
In the third one everything is fine in my book except someone should have gotten rid of hair & stuff on the surfaces.

Overall there is not much detail rendering in any of them which can be technical (lens?) or technique. My old homepage, destined for deletion contains such stuff.


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## astroNikon (Oct 27, 2016)

with "artistic" trends (aka, InstraGram aweful filters) people have a different sense of what is correct.  It seems it's not about being technically correct anymore but, to use the term loosely, "artistically" correct.

I'd like to see one of her selfies too. I'm sure it's an awful instagram one.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 27, 2016)

I am not sure why you would like someone as thoughtless  and uncaring as this but I suppose it's your choice.


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## Designer (Oct 27, 2016)

Let me guess:

When she holds her camera at arm's length, the camera is quite close, and it has a wide lens, so the selfies have her face very prominent in the frame.  There is also distortion, but that is another issue.  So her experience is more face in the frame, and her face is probably turned up toward the camera, so more light on it as well.  The only suggestion I have for your photos is to add light under her chin and in her eye sockets.  You could duplicate the effect by shooting very close and adding light.


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## Granddad (Oct 27, 2016)

Well, the lady is beautiful on the _outside_ and you showed that. What was she expecting, a halo and angel wings?


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## jcdeboever (Oct 27, 2016)

I like dogs better than people....


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## cauzimme (Oct 27, 2016)

Yeah quote on quote (translate)

Sorry Ari, I don't like any of those photos.

To be honest, I look at them and I just wanna cry. I see all of my imperfections. The angles are not good.

To which I answered, could you suffer from body dismorphia

And she answers, well I don't know, the selfies I post on instagram are way better, I take 2 shots and I'm happy with the result, here i'm not.

Please don't post any of them, it's not cool for me, it's my image.

I'm testing my theory of body dismorphia since she keep telling me, she looks fat.


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## Designer (Oct 27, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> To be honest, I look at them and I just wanna cry. I see all of my imperfections. The angles are not good.


Can you get a reshoot?  Work on the angles (I don't know what she means by "angles") and take the photos into your editing software to smooth out "imperfections", although I see none.


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## cauzimme (Oct 27, 2016)

Designer said:


> cauzimme said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, I look at them and I just wanna cry. I see all of my imperfections. The angles are not good.
> ...



There's no way in hell I wanna reshoot her.
I'm thinking about leaving photography. I'm trying so hard to build myself a portfolio for civvies, I shoot for free, but I just keep having bad experience, my portfolio is still empty. I had model who didn't show up, some who treated me like I was a dog. And now her.


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## tirediron (Oct 27, 2016)

ronlane said:


> Sorry not much time to C&C, but I'd like to see her selfies. I highly doubt they are better.


This!  These may not be your bet work, but they're a very solid set of images.  Is there room for improvement?  Of course; none of us are perfect.  I would ask her to explain exactly what it is that's wrong with them (in her opinion) and remind her that you OWN the images and will do with them as you please (unless of course you signed an agreement to the contrary).  Nothing to feel about with these.


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## Frank F. (Oct 27, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> I'm thinking about leaving photography. I'm trying so hard to build myself a portfolio for civvies, I shoot for free, but I just keep having bad experience, my portfolio is still empty. I had model who didn't show up, some who treated me like I was a dog. And now her.



Do not shoot for free. Never.  It is bad for your self esteem and makes your "customers" look down on you and treat you badly.

90% about photo business is the business part. You can halfways screw up the photo part, if only you are good in the business part. In fact I know people who do just that. Give 150% in the photo part and screw up the buisness part and you are screwed. Been there done that.

Do not let yourself be dragged down by people like her, sorry.


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## cauzimme (Oct 27, 2016)

Frank F. said:


> cauzimme said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking about leaving photography. I'm trying so hard to build myself a portfolio for civvies, I shoot for free, but I just keep having bad experience, my portfolio is still empty. I had model who didn't show up, some who treated me like I was a dog. And now her.
> ...



But how am I suppose to build up my portfolio if I can't shoot for free ? 
People have no Idea what I can do, I only worked in boudoir before.


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## KmH (Oct 27, 2016)

You charge the going rate, but offer a portfolio building discount.
Your invoice shows what your full price is, but then the Portfolio Discount gets subtracted from that.

Plus, the portfolio building phase of your business should be covered as a early part of your written business plan.


> If you fail to plan, plan to fail.


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## smoke665 (Oct 27, 2016)

I can see it clearly you made a drastic mistake in post processing. You removed the warts, wrinkles and greenish tint from the witch's face. Might be time to reevaluate the friendship.


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## korn_2956 (Oct 27, 2016)

I think they look great

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## tirediron (Oct 27, 2016)

KmH said:


> You charge the going rate, but offer a portfolio building discount.
> Your invoice shows what your full price is, but then the Portfolio Discount gets subtracted from that.
> 
> Plus, the portfolio building phase of your business should be covered as a early part of your written business plan.
> ...


This. The other method I've used is to ask them as a favour to me. " I've got an idea for a new pose/lighting plan...whatever, and I was wondering if you.would mind helping me out?"  This way they're doing something for you.


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## cauzimme (Oct 27, 2016)

So I test my theory with the body dismorphia thing and it seems like it's not my photo that she didn't like. It's the way she sees her body, I did some agressive body morph and she likes the photo.

This is sad. And Ironic, I would die for a body like hers.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 27, 2016)

I'd like to see her selfies also.  The only thing I can think of is probably the expressions.  There is nothing wrong, bu maybe she is looking for something different?

We all go through the same stages, doesn't matter where you are at in your career.  I have clients who  paid so much for my photography and love my work, then I have a few who wanted a full refund simply because they don't like my work (without any particular reasons).  It's part of the struggle.


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## waday (Oct 27, 2016)

So, yeah, I've always thought your pictures were great.



cauzimme said:


> And Ironic, I would die for a body like hers.


As an aside, I've always found women that loved their body to be attractive, no matter the shape or size. Don't wish for someone else's, embrace your own.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 27, 2016)

Most people want a true portrait. She wants to make believe she is something she isn't. Just go and retouch the heck out of them and smooth, blur and glow her to death. 

If she doesn't like this




Maybe this is better...





OK. Bad jokes aside, I think she doesn't like herself and there is nothing you can do about that.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 27, 2016)

waday said:


> So, yeah, I've always thought your pictures were great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like embracing my wife's body more than my own. but whatever.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 27, 2016)

What I noticed is that the background is so light, and maybe hazy? and she's in a dark top and shawl. I think the contrast and the clothing tends to make her look thicker thru the midriff (than maybe she really is? don't know not seeing her in person). It might have worked better to have her stand/pose differently or have your vantage point be at a different angle, arrange the shawl differently, or go with lighter clothing or a different background.

I don't know about the exposure but maybe that needed to be adjusted since you were shooting a dark subject against that background (might have thrown off meter readings). I think the close up of her is lovely; much better with less of that background. When it's hazy or cloudy it can help to frame differently to have less sky in the picture than when there's a nice blue sky.

The reality is being successful with photography (or other things as well) is probably going to take time and continuing to develop skills and maybe some investment. I think it's going to be necessary to move beyond freebies with friends, maybe hire a model, see if there are any camera clubs or art centers that have studio space available, etc.

It just seems like not that many people are doing photography as a job or career nowadays, although that might change in the future - and I don't know how many people ever were, really. The only other photographers I know at most have done it as a sideline. It might take time to develop photography as a business and consider other options that could work along with part time photography as you build up business. Maybe think about where you see yourself in 5-10 years and how would you get to that point.


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## Trever1t (Oct 27, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> Yesterday I did a Fall lifestyle inspired photoshoot.
> My friend told me, she would like to do a shoot, so I went for her because I knew she would be there.
> Unfortunately, she told me I screw up, she takes better selfie of herself and therefore she won't let me post any photo on my port, on facebook, pinterest, instagram. Basically, nowhere. I screw up, but I do like the photo, and it's hurt my ego like hell to have someone I like tell me they take better selfie than my photos. I'm crushed .
> 
> ...




You did not screw up.I have had a handful of models with similar regards. They have a particular self image and a selfie allows them to perpetuate it. Your (my) images (to these types of models) are like how we hear ourselves on a recording...sometimes we don't like how we sound but others don't hear it the same. Does that make sense?


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## Designer (Oct 27, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> There's no way in hell I wanna reshoot her.
> I'm thinking about leaving photography. I'm trying so hard to build myself a portfolio for civvies, I shoot for free, but I just keep having bad experience, my portfolio is still empty. I had model who didn't show up, some who treated me like I was a dog. And now her.


I'm very sorry to read that.  

Please don't give up.  

I think you can charge people without showing a portfolio.  Show some of your boudoir shots.  Get a sitting fee up front.  You can offer a discount for prompt payment, or for portfolio stock, but always get some money that you keep.


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## ronlane (Oct 27, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> I'm thinking about leaving photography. I'm trying so hard to build myself a portfolio for civvies, I shoot for free, but I just keep having bad experience, my portfolio is still empty. I had model who didn't show up, some who treated me like I was a dog. And now her.



Why would you let a few non photographers dictate this for you. Read the comments above by photographers that are telling you that the work you showed is not bad. Take the advice that they have suggested and keep learning and shooting.

I'm sure that you know that photography isn't something that you learn in a couple of days. And as I have learned, it is something that you need thick a thick skin.

Keep at it.


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## jcdeboever (Oct 27, 2016)

Designer said:


> cauzimme said:
> 
> 
> > There's no way in hell I wanna reshoot her.
> ...



I agree, she is too talented to throw it in. I may not dig her subject matter but still, I can see artistic talent being around it all my life. She has it. I think it is just the people she runs with in her quest for the most part. I am no expert but I seem to recall her doing a male shoot (I may be wrong) and the quality was there. Heck, she could go out on the street and pull people for a portfolio. I used to go to retirement homes and teach painting in my spare time (did it over 5 years). I did it because my wife's grandma suggested it, and I fell in love with all the people there. The older people were fantastic models, loved the company, and I was able sharpen my craft. I could do that with photography if I wanted and will do it. I am on a list waiting for the call in a couple places. I actually got two calls but I couldn't do them on the days they needed.  Both places call me every month (last Friday) to check on my need to serve, pretty neat. Open the mind to master the craft, get creative in whats available to you, explore all avenues because the subject matter your after may not be your calling.


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## zombiesniper (Oct 27, 2016)

As people have already stated. These are not photos to be ashamed of and the delusions of the model do not dictate the merits of the image.

Don't give up because of someone that doesn't see value in your work.....oh ya, YOU need to start placing value in your work. Regardless of what others think, you have to be able to look at your work objectively and asses it's quality AND also know who else may be able to aid you in remaining objective. (We all have that not the best shot but still love it for emotional reasons)
Everyone has a bad day whether real or perceived.
If you take nothing else from the support you are receiving, listen to this next part.

KEEP SHOOTING. KEEP LEARNING.


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## FITBMX (Oct 27, 2016)

If you even think about quitting I will drive all the way up to Canada and slap you!  You are very talented, and will to far. 
Remember you are the artist, NOT THE MODEL! So you edit to your liking, the model poses the way you want. If they have a problem, that's what it is, THEIR problem, not yours. So, unless the client gives you a specific request before the shoot is even agreed upon, the shoot is always your show. 
Being an artist has always been hard. But artist do what they love, because they love it. Art is for the artist that created it, not for the public.
Now here is a hug so you feel better!


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## Derrel (Oct 27, 2016)

Chloe Lattanzi, Daughter of Olivia Newton-John, Opens Up About Her Body Dysmorphia


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## Granddad (Oct 28, 2016)

FITBMX said:


> If you even think about quitting I will drive all the way up to Canada and slap you!  You are very talented, and will to far.
> Remember you are the artist, NOT THE MODEL! So you edit to your liking, the model poses the way you want. If they have a problem, that's what it is, THEIR problem, not yours. So, unless the client gives you a specific request before the shoot is even agreed upon, the shoot is always your show.
> Being an artist has always been hard. But artist do what they love, because they love it. Art is for the artist that created it, not for the public.
> Now here is a hug so you feel better!



... And I'll fly over the pond and slap you from the other side! 

You're a bloody good photographer, you have waaay more talent and potential than I do. I'm really enjoying seeing your expansion out of boudoir.  *Granddad hugs*


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## pjaye (Oct 28, 2016)

Granddad said:


> FITBMX said:
> 
> 
> > If you even think about quitting I will drive all the way up to Canada and slap you!  You are very talented, and will to far.
> ...



And I live closer to you than either of the two above, I'll provide them the transportation!

Please, you are an amazing photographer. Please don't quit. I've often wished I actually lived closer to you so I could get you to photograph me. Don't quit, please.


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## FITBMX (Oct 28, 2016)

As for your portfolio, I have heard of artist having good luck with just walking up to  someone on the street at saying "I love your look. I am a photographer and in the middle changing my style from boudoir to regular portraiture (or whatever you want to call it), and would love it if you would model a shoot with me. Here is my card with the web address of my boudoir portfolio, let me know if you are interested." 
Most will be very flattered with this. 
Not everyone will do a shoot, but some will.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 28, 2016)

In answer to the question posed by the OP,  I think your mistake was letting the subject of a photo decide the value of it for you. That's your job.
In the future let people know you will do free or discount photos in return for full ownership and rights of use and get the signature  on the release before the shoot.


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## Frank F. (Oct 28, 2016)

Advanced Photo said:


> In answer to the question posed by the OP,  I think your mistake was letting the subject of a photo decide the value of it for you. That's your job. In the future let people know you will do free or discount photos in return for full ownership and rights of use and get the signature  on the release before the shoot.




Model release before shoot is good. Necessary.


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## JoeW (Oct 28, 2016)

Multiple thoughts:

1.  The model doesn't decide the quality of the work.  She can like a photo that you feel is bad.  You can like a photo and she is "meh" about it.  But be clear, your standards are your standards.   You asked in the thread--where did I go bad?  The answer is in nothing you did with your camera.  It's in choosing a friend who has difficult standards to shoot and you weren't clear about those issues pre-shoot.

2.  This is complicated b/c she is a friend.  And even though (if she signed a release), you have the right to display (and without a release, at least the right to display in a personal portfolio), b/c you may want to preserve the friendship you may lean over backwards and not display the work.

3.  This story illustrates the importance of working out details beforehand.  Do not assume that b/c you are friends that therefore it will all work out.  B/c the two of you are friends and she's beautiful, you assumed it would all work out.  That's your biggest error here. 

4.  She's being rude and selfish...acting as if the sole purpose of this shoot was to produce photos for her use and enjoyment.  BS.  With a TF shoot, both sides need to benefit.

5.  I know it's hard to follow but...don't take someone's opinion too honestly (including this one, and all of the others in the thread--though all of us know more about photography than she does).  Listen to critics.  But unless they're  a paying client, you do not need to satisfy them--that is not your job.

6.  You do good work.  If you feel like your non-boudoir work hasn't grown, then at a minimum, you need to re-evaluate how you're getting your models.  Look at OMP or MM and put out a casting call for a glamour shoot.  Or a bridal shoot.  Or a maternity shoot.


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## zombiesniper (Oct 28, 2016)

symplybarb said:


> Granddad said:
> 
> 
> > FITBMX said:
> ...



And people say you can't solve your problems with violence. F*%k that! I'm slapping all my problems from now on!


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## Peeb (Oct 28, 2016)

You 'screwed up' by counting a rude clod as your 'friend'.

Ignore her.


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## cauzimme (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks for the kind words, i'm very overwhelmed these days, it seems to be mistakes after mistakes, let down, trouble, continual struggle and no advancement. Never tought it would be so hard. I love photo, and i'm depressed when i'm not shooting and now I was depressed after shooting... 

After a small conversation where I explain, that I didn't shoot for fun at all (she knows I'm struggling with my portfolio and my business) she told me I could post the images that she judge okay (the ones with extensive photoshop) I guess I'll get better with the fluidity and content aware tool. I also have one friend\ usually client (escort) who offer to help me for my normal portfolio next week (Amelie in the NSFW section, I have work with her in the past and it's always a charm)


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## pendennis (Oct 28, 2016)

cauzimme said:


> Thanks for the kind words, i'm very overwhelmed these days, it seems to be mistakes after mistakes, let down, trouble, continual struggle and no advancement. Never tought it would be so hard. I love photo, and i'm depressed when i'm not shooting and now I was depressed after shooting...
> 
> After a small conversation where I explain, that I didn't shoot for fun at all (she knows I'm struggling with my portfolio and my business) she told me I could post the images that she judge okay (the ones with extensive photoshop) I guess I'll get better with the fluidity and content aware tool. I also have one friend\ usually client (escort) who offer to help me for my normal portfolio next week (Amelie in the NSFW section, I have work with her in the past and it's always a charm)



The process to become a successful photographer, whether journalistic, fashion, portrait, etc., is long, and frequently disappointing.  That stated, the disappointments are learning experiences from which you always have to learn.  Whether a crappy friend/model, over-demanding customer, uncle Jake using his cell phone cam, piggy-backing onto your posed wedding shots, etc., these are the pitfalls which you need to either avoid, or work around, most likely work around.

I noticed that your signature carries a number of diverse inspirations.  Perhaps you should narrow your inspirations to maybe Diane Arbus and Richard Avedon.  All are great photographers, but so many can scatter your focus.  If you chose Ricard Avedon for example, read everything you can, and study each of his photographs to learn his lighting, poses, environment, etc.  I'm not saying you should mimic him, but learn from his strong points.

The other thing you need to do, is to not obsess over taking pictures.  While you may love photography, you need to be able to put it away, and find some type of recreation.  I firmly believe that one should love his/her work, and may likely do it without pay, but R&R is massively important to your own mental health and development.


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## JoeW (Oct 28, 2016)

Let me offer a couple of thoughts...

1.  You're passionate about your work/art.  And that's a good thing.  Though at the time it doesn't feel like it.  Bc you'll get depressed.  You'll want to quit.  You'll want to throw things.  When we are passionate about something, that's what we do.  We don't go "whatever" or "I don't really care."

2.  Don't worry about salvaging the results from the shoot with her. I think you probably have a bunch of shots you could use.  But you got tremendous value from this shoot--and it has to do with lessons around managing expectations upfront, reaching agreements about using results, shooting with friends, etc.  That's invaluable (though painful) insights.  As for trying to salvage the photos...what if you get some she says "okay" and then she comes back 6 months later and says "that's on your website or business card or in a gallery?  I never gave approval for that--take it down!"  What you know is that she's skittish about the pictures of her.

3.  To build your portfolio for non-nude, non-boudoir work, you need real models.  Models who understand that they give up the rights to the work when they sign a release and they pose.  Reach out to friends.  Unless you already know what you're going to specialize in, you can use a mix of different stuff:  maternity shoots, nursing moms, brides, engagement photos, children's portraits, pets (especially pet sports), athletics (especially kids), marriages, parties.  You'd be surprised how many serious, experienced models will do TF--you shoot a concept they need (showing off their new cut or them after they've had a child) in trade for what you want


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## FITBMX (Oct 28, 2016)

You post the photos that YOU like, not what " that she judge okay". You are way to good to put up with this! 

You should go out and take some photos for fun, not for your portfolio, not to sell, just for fun. Go to the park and take some animal photos, get some landscapes, cityscapes, some street shots. Just go out with your camera for fun, with no intentions of getting "Good" photos. Relax, breath, click that shutter, and love it! 



cauzimme said:


> I also have one friend\ usually client (escort) who offer to help me for my normal portfolio next week (Amelie in the NSFW section, I have work with her in the past and it's always a charm)


Make sure you post these new photos, I am looking forward to them. 
I haven't seen the previous photos of her. Since I'm not a supporting member (don't have the money) I don't have access to the NSFW area.


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## FITBMX (Oct 28, 2016)

I just thought of it! Instead of my coming up there to slap you I can slap you "friend"!!! Please let me lap her! I want to sooooooooo bad!!!!


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## nerwin (Oct 30, 2016)

Sorry, but I really don't see anything wrong with those photos. They look great to me.


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