# I am officially outsourcing!!!



## kathyt (Jun 30, 2013)

I can't physically or mentally edit one more image for at LEAST a Month! My brain is fried and can't handle sitting in front of a computer screen for another second. I have been editing non-stop for the last couple of weeks and it is not worth it for me. So, I am shipping the rest of my work load out the frickin' door! I have outsourced in the past when I couldn't keep up and they basically do all of my color corrections and then I just have to cull, crop and do any other final tweaks. Now I can get my sanity back and get the hell out of my office. Vent over.  P.S. I outsource through Vital Edits and they are awesome. (just incase anyone was curious)


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## JenR (Jun 30, 2013)

Good for you for taking charge of your business and your sanity.


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## Tailgunner (Jun 30, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> I can't physically or mentally edit one more image for at LEAST a Month! My brain is fried and can't handle sitting in front of a computer screen for another second. I have been editing non-stop for the last couple of weeks and it is not worth it for me. So, I am shipping the rest of my work load out the frickin' door! I have outsourced in the past when I couldn't keep up and they basically do all of my color corrections and then I just have to cull, crop and do any other final tweaks. Now I can get my sanity back and get the hell out of my office. Vent over.  P.S. I outsource through Vital Edits and they are awesome. (just incase anyone was curious)



I was just wondering what the Pros did when it comes to editing, specially Wedding photographers who shoots 1,000's of shots per event. I've been editing 200-300 shots and it's driving me up the wall lol


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 30, 2013)

Seems expensive but if you can build it into the price sure why not. Sanity is worth it. Cant you create actions that will get you close to where you want then go from there?


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## cgipson1 (Jun 30, 2013)

Tailgunner said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > I can't physically or mentally edit one more image for at LEAST a Month! My brain is fried and can't handle sitting in front of a computer screen for another second. I have been editing non-stop for the last couple of weeks and it is not worth it for me. So, I am shipping the rest of my work load out the frickin' door! I have outsourced in the past when I couldn't keep up and they basically do all of my color corrections and then I just have to cull, crop and do any other final tweaks. Now I can get my sanity back and get the hell out of my office. Vent over.  P.S. I outsource through Vital Edits and they are awesome. (just incase anyone was curious)
> ...



You get a workflow down... and usually if you are good, most of the images generally only need a few minor tweaks (easily handled by a recorded action). But sometimes you get bogged down, and farm it out. 

That was one of the nice things about film...  you shot it, and if you had access to a good high volume commercial printer, you could knock out five or six rolls (36 exposure) really quick. And that was the other nice thing about film... you didn't end up with 1000's of images at a wedding... couple of hundred at the most.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 30, 2013)

No need to spray n prey, cameras can shoot single frame or multiple frames. Its the user not equipment.


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## Tailgunner (Jun 30, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Tailgunner said:
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Ya, back in my film days, I dropped everything off at commercial printers which was about 5-10 rolls. Digital space is so much cheaper, especially now days and I guess why we take hundreds if not thousands of photos. That and we like tweaking and customizing things.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 30, 2013)

yep very cheap these days. when i shoot pro sports(racing/golf) im good for 5k frames from a weekend. who cares about a keep rate? show me your 10 best photos whether its 10/11 or 10/5000 who cares. your 10 best are your 10 best.


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## ShooterJ (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm confused.. should you be conservative and not spray and pray or be ok with selecting the 10 best out of 5,000 frames?

I'm new to all this .. so just curious. The contradiction was rather strange..


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## Trever1t (Jun 30, 2013)

Good for you Kathy, I don't have quite enough to worry about that yet but I know many many photographers who don't have time to edit and outsource. 

ShooterJ, weddings and sports are very different but both can bulk you down with large numbers of files, especially if you are working 3 or 4 times a month.


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## ShooterJ (Jun 30, 2013)

Absolutely.. I understand it's quite common to fire off a lot of frames at events.  It was also commented that there was no need to "Spray 'N Pray"... to my thinking, it isn't both.  It's one or the other.. either you're shooting single frames and being conservative or you're firing off a LOT of shots to sort through in post later (which was what I understood to be the common practice in digital).  I suppose two DIFFERENT photographers could do it in the two different ways... but my confusion at one Photographer advocating both at the same time.  *shrugs*


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## hirejn (Jul 1, 2013)

I've heard of outsourcing working but none of the photographers I know, including myself, have had success with it. I already know I can do better than most labs, right down to head swaps. And if there's a few images I can't do, I can send them to a specialty lab that takes small orders. If you're booked 10 hours a day every day, then yes outsourcing is worth it. But if you actually have time to edit and just don't want to, then it's not worth it. The reason most people struggle is because their captures aren't perfect and they have no system for editing. Those are fixable problems. One, become a better photographer. Two, get a system for processing.

I used to think weddings had to take weeks, until I learned the secrets. First, shoot with the final product in mind. Get the best capture in camera to minimize the work in post. This is the one fewest photographers do, and it's easier said than done. Then, I have presets and actions set up to help me. And there's a very important tool that can cut your editing in half: a shortcut keyboard. They're about $400, but once you have it set up, you can just punch buttons and edit images in seconds. Many pros get their weddings done in a day this way. Most pros won't spend more than five minutes on an image. If you're taking longer, look at ways to cut time. The key is having a vision, perfect captures, and using the right tools in post.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> Absolutely.. I understand it's quite common to fire off a lot of frames at events. It was also commented that there was no need to "Spray 'N Pray"... to my thinking, it isn't both. It's one or the other.. either you're shooting single frames and being conservative or you're firing off a LOT of shots to sort through in post later (which was what I understood to be the common practice in digital). I suppose two DIFFERENT photographers could do it in the two different ways... but my confusion at one Photographer advocating both at the same time. *shrugs*




It can be both to an extent. While doing a wedding I will take several shots of the main events, (first look, ring exhcange, first kiss etc.) those shots that you have to get. but that doesn't mean I shoot that way the entire day. for other shots i'll just go slow take my time and get one or two shots of what i'm looking for. so it can be a mix of the two.


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## hirejn (Jul 1, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> I'm confused.. should you be conservative and not spray and pray or be ok with selecting the 10 best out of 5,000 frames?
> 
> I'm new to all this .. so just curious. The contradiction was rather strange..



Spray and pray is an amateur technique. Pros are more selective with their shots as they take them, eliminating the need to go through long sequences of the same thing. This ties into a faster workflow.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

Spray and pray is used when a person doesn't have a clue what there doing so there only option is to shoot a ton and hope they get something.   but there are still areas where very competant pro's will shoot a lot (sport's for instance) where they are looking for that perfect split second moment. Fast shooting isn't just for the amateur.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

Spray and pray isn't even a thing, geez. You guys are talking about it like there are some LOSERS who just close their eyes and wave the camera around, and then there are COOL KIDS who, like a sniper, take one exposure for every shot they're going to need, no more, no less. The implication, of course, is that I am a COOL KID and you are a LOSER.

Do you take more pictures than you eventually wind up showing the client?


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

Sorry if the definition hasn't made it into webster's yet,  but yes there are people that don't know what they are doing who just take a ton of photos and pray one comes out good.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

The point is that it's a spectrum. Everyone sprays and prays to some greater or lesser degree, at least some of the time. There are circumstances where the process is different, but weddings are not among them.


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## runnah (Jul 1, 2013)

Dang I would have done it! Editing is my favorite part of photography.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

I agree with that statement, and that was why I pointed out that some spray and pray but then there are others who know what they are doing who will take a lot of shots to get that one right moment.  has nothing to do with being cool and being a loser. it comes down to a person with experience versus someone who's just guesing.  


the diffrence to me is person A shooting and hoping they get one good one in focus and exposure that is acceptable versus person B who will get all the shots relatively in focus and exposed properly but takes a bunch to get the perfect moment.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

Some people take more pictures, some people take fewer. Some people take a higher percentage of good ones, some people take a lower percentage. These two are, at best, loosely correlated.

This doesn't sound nearly as cool as "professionals are basically photo ninjas, and this is basically what separates professionals (i.e. me) from amateurs (i.e. you)" but it more accurately represents reality.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> The point is that it's a spectrum. Everyone sprays and prays to some greater or lesser degree, at least some of the time. There are circumstances where the process is different, but weddings are not among them.



NO.. NOT everyone! lol! That is a untrue generalization... and those are often (usually) incorrect! Even one person who doesn't do as the generalization assumes, disproves the generalization.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

Gee, you presume to explain the difference between existential and universal quantifiers to a mathematician? Bold.

You are claiming that there exists at least a single wedding photographer who takes one (1) exposure only for every necessary shot, every shot to be given to the client? Really? That's rhetorical, don't even bother replying.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jul 1, 2013)

Too much text book knowledge not enough hands on experience.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

brian_f2.8 said:


> Too much text book knowledge not enough hands on experience.



Who are you talking to? Or is this a general remark? Perhaps you're making a confession?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Gee, you presume to explain the difference between existential and universal quantifiers to a mathematician? Bold.
> 
> You are claiming that there exists at least a single wedding photographer who takes one (1) exposure only for every necessary shot, every shot to be given to the client? Really? That's rhetorical, don't even bother replying.



Oh.. and EVERY photographers just puts the camera in HIGH FPS, and just pushes down the the shutter button? Really? That's rhetorical, don't even bother replying.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

brian_f2.8 said:


> Too much text book knowledge not enough hands on experience.



That describes several here ... who do you mean in particular?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> brian_f2.8 said:
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> > Too much text book knowledge not enough hands on experience.
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Some lack both....


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

hirejn said:


> I've heard of outsourcing working but none of the photographers I know, including myself, have had success with it. I already know I can do better than most labs, right down to head swaps. And if there's a few images I can't do, I can send them to a specialty lab that takes small orders. If you're booked 10 hours a day every day, then yes outsourcing is worth it. But if you actually have time to edit and just don't want to, then it's not worth it. The reason most people struggle is because their captures aren't perfect and they have no system for editing. Those are fixable problems. One, become a better photographer. Two, get a system for processing.
> 
> I used to think weddings had to take weeks, until I learned the secrets. First, shoot with the final product in mind. Get the best capture in camera to minimize the work in post. This is the one fewest photographers do, and it's easier said than done. Then, I have presets and actions set up to help me. And there's a very important tool that can cut your editing in half: a shortcut keyboard. They're about $400, but once you have it set up, you can just punch buttons and edit images in seconds. Many pros get their weddings done in a day this way. Most pros won't spend more than five minutes on an image. If you're taking longer, look at ways to cut time. The key is having a vision, perfect captures, and using the right tools in post.



This sounds a lot like the system Doug Gordon lectures about. He advocates NOT automatically shooting doubles on each pose, but instead, getting each frame RIGHT, in-camera. And editing FAST using a shortcut keyboard and loads of carefully selected presets, like the Kevin Kubota collection ones. Watching his retouching/optimizing,cropping on-line is amazing to see how FAST he is.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> amolitor said:
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> > Gee, you presume to explain the difference between existential and universal quantifiers to a mathematician? Bold.
> ...



Charlie, either you really don't understand what I have said, which is a shame because it's not very complicated, OR you're just making up dumb stuff you wish I had said, so you can rebut that. Either way, I can't really help you out.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> cgipson1 said:
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amolitor said:


> The point is that it's a spectrum. *Everyone  sprays and prays *to some greater or lesser degree, at least some of the  time. There are circumstances where the process is different, but  weddings are not among them.



yea... whatever


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

"to a greater or lesser degree"

You gotta read ALL the words. Well, if you wanna have a conversation. If you just want to piss on people you don't like, you can skip the reading comprehension part.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> "to a greater or lesser degree"
> 
> You gotta read ALL the words. Well, if you wanna have a conversation. If you just want to piss on people you don't like, you can skip the reading comprehension part.



You made up a ridiculous absolute 



amolitor said:


> *You are claiming that there exists at least a single wedding  photographer who takes one (1) exposure only for every necessary shot,  every shot to be given to the client?*



So did I!


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## brian_f2.8 (Jul 1, 2013)

Anyone who does not shoot multiple fps for live events is stupid or doesnt know what they are doing. Things happen within seconds that can throw off an image. Now you dont need 50 shots of the bride n groom kissing but you can't take one photo then move on.

After a race during the ceremony, the drivers get champange and confetti is blown at them. Here is how I apply composition - get there early so you have a good spot to shoot from. I dont want an angle but sometime spots are rsvp'd or other people beat me there. So get there early as possible to get a good shot. Dial in your settings. I know what is going to happen from here so once I am set up in position and the camera settings are where I want them, then yeah take a bunch of shots and use the best one - everyone does it. They all have different reactions at different times, one person turns away, confetti on one person not the other, eyes open/closed all kinds of variables. No one takes one photo in this situation. 

Eli Manning throws a 40 yrd bomb to Victor Cruz, the photographers should already be dialed in. They should have a 9+ fps camera so they starting shooting when Victor jumps and they use the best shot. They have the entire sequence. Why else would Canon design a 1Dx for 14fps and Nikon D4 for 12fps? 

Compose the shot but use the technology to your advantage.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 1, 2013)

I try not to waste shots too terribly much, but when shooting a group of people posed together, I always take a 2nd or even 3rd take.  I mean, people blink, ya know?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

bentcountershaft said:


> I try not to waste shots too terribly much, but when shooting a group of people posed together, I always take a 2nd or even 3rd take.  I mean, people blink, ya know?



I agree! Wholeheartedly!


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## runnah (Jul 1, 2013)

Look Chuck and Andy are fighting...again.


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## Tony S (Jul 1, 2013)

Good for you farming out the overwhelming work.  Sometimes you need to get help when things build up too much.

Now take some time to work on your workflow so it's not so difficult to manage when you shoot a lot. Batch processing can be a very handy thing to do. While I understand getting overwhelmed, I could not farm out my post processing as that is what makes my work mine. Even color correction is an individual preference.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 2, 2013)

bentcountershaft said:


> I try not to waste shots too terribly much, but when shooting a group of people posed together, I always take a 2nd or even 3rd take. I mean, people blink, ya know?




and this was what I was trying to get at when saying there is a diffrence between spray and pray and shooting multiple shots.  spray and pray is not knowing what your doing and just hoping one of them turns out.   shooting multiple by someone experienced he/she knows they will get good shots but wants to find that right one. that first wedding kiss it could mean a shot of them that although technically fine the bride and groom could have the faces smooshed together and head turned slightly where its just not giving the most flattering of shots. so your taking multiples to get the best image. your not spraying in hopes of getting one to turn out, your shooting for the best look. this is why for me there is a diffrence in the two. and the differnce has nothing to do with being cool.


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## Superfitz (Jul 2, 2013)

Should if asked around here first. You could if probably of gotten someone to do it cheaper and better quality.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 2, 2013)

Or someone that would have added huge tits to every subject, regardless of sex.


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## Superfitz (Jul 2, 2013)

bentcountershaft said:
			
		

> Or someone that would have added huge tits to every subject, regardless of sex.



It is amazing how a simple thing like that makes every image exponentially better


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## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

My work flow is very fast. I use LR only. I have presets. I don't use actions. My images come out of my camera how I need them to be, but it is sheer volume that I don't want to deal with. I don't want to do basic color corrections on a mass number of images over and over again. I will do creative edits on the ones that are the stand outs once I get them back. That I like to do. Outsourcing is not meant for head swapping and cloning. They _can_ do that, but that is not what I use them for. It is meant for photographers who make more money behind the camera and elsewhere. I would only outsource during peak season for it to be cost effective, but it is so worth every cent.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> My work flow is very fast. My images come out of my camera how I need them to be...



Well, well, well...aren't we proud of ourselves....(said in my best "Church Lady" voice).  :mrgreen:


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## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> kathythorson said:
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I was responding to some previous posts, and yes....yes I am.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


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I know baby...simmah donnah!


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## runnah (Jul 2, 2013)

Why are people picking on Kathy?


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## o hey tyler (Jul 2, 2013)

runnah said:


> Why are people picking on Kathy?



Because no one is picking up Kathy. She plays hard to get.


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## runnah (Jul 2, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> Because no one is picking up Kathy. She plays hard to get.



Well if we both weren't with fine women it'd be no contest. Few women can resist the appeal of a Maine man.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 2, 2013)

runnah said:


> Well if we both weren't with fine women it'd be no contest. Few women can resist the appeal of a Maine man.



Agreed. The rugged mountain man appeal coupled with the exfoliating properties of salty air from the ocean.


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## camz (Jul 2, 2013)

Kathy I only edit the top 80-150 that goes to the album where full control is needed(The one's that are displayed in public: blog, website, facebook, prints).  The other 500 or so that people don't really care too much gets outsourced out the door - If it is ordered in digital file format by our clients. It's defintely worth your time to get it out to an expert who can do it within a day or two - going rates now in the bay area are fairly cheap being less than 25 cents/image.


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## amolitor (Jul 2, 2013)

Anyone who thinks outsourcing is a sign of a flawed process has it backwards.

Arguably if you CAN'T outsource things of this ilk, in this era of essentially free global transport of digital data, your process is broken. Look up "comparative advantage" if you don't know what it is. Stuff like bulk color correction is a perfect example of outsourcing gone right.


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## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

runnah said:


> Why are people picking on Kathy?


No one is picking on me runnah, and you know I love those Maine men!


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## runnah (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> No one is picking on me runnah, and you know I love those Maine men!



http://yourllbeanboyfriend.tumblr.com/

Tyler and I were approached but were rejected for being too ruggedly good looking.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jul 3, 2013)

runnah said:


> kathythorson said:
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I have no words to describe the absurdity of that tumblr. SMH.


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## runnah (Jul 3, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


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What are you a J Crew type of guy?


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## squirrels (Jul 3, 2013)

runnah said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
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I know I've said it once, but it bears repeating. Carhartt:
Get to Know Your Carhartt Boyfriend


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## EIngerson (Jul 3, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> runnah said:
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> > Well if we both weren't with fine women it'd be no contest. Few women can resist the appeal of a Maine man.
> ...



Back off. I'm waiting for the right moment. Kathy, I think you need a tropical vacation. lol


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## runnah (Jul 3, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> o hey tyler said:
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I yield to your superior ruggedness. Plus you have a dirt bike which gets all the chicks.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 3, 2013)

Jousting on a Honda CBX.  It doesn't get much cooler than that.


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## Stevepwns (Jul 3, 2013)

runnah said:


> kathythorson said:
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> > No one is picking on me runnah, and you know I love those Maine men!
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I know your pain.  Keep fighting the good fight though.   :thumbup:


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## kathyt (Jul 3, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> o hey tyler said:
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I leave for Mexico for a week on July 26th!


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 3, 2013)

kathythorson said:


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¿Dónde va en México? Cuando yo vivía en Texas, me visitó México con  frecuencia. Que es donde he aprendido a hablar en español. Tengo un gato  en mi pantalón.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jul 3, 2013)

runnah said:


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Most of my threads don't have labels or embroidered animals on them. I'm 6'6", 240lbs, so off the rack stuff doesn't really work for me.

Btw, I wasn't knocking L.L. Bean, just that ridiculous tumblr.

"He'll build you a table, then have sex with you on it."??? Come on...


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## runnah (Jul 3, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Most of my threads don't have labels or embroidered animals on them. I'm 6'6", 240lbs, so off the rack stuff doesn't really work for me.
> 
> Btw, I wasn't knocking L.L. Bean, just that ridiculous tumblr.
> 
> "He'll build you a table, then have sex with you on it."??? Come on...



Happens all the time in Maine.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 3, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Most of my threads don't have labels or embroidered animals on them. I'm 6'6", 240lbs, so off the rack stuff doesn't really work for me.
> 
> Btw, I wasn't knocking L.L. Bean, just that ridiculous tumblr.
> 
> "He'll build you a table, then have sex with you on it."??? Come on...



It's pure humor. The writer of the tumblr got recognized at the Best of Maine awards hosted by DownEast magazine. It's supposed to be silly.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 3, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
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> > Most of my threads don't have labels or embroidered animals on them. I'm 6'6", 240lbs, so off the rack stuff doesn't really work for me.
> ...




O, the irony.


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## kathyt (Jul 3, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> kathythorson said:
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ir a hacerme una bebida dammit! That is all I know in Spanish.


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## EIngerson (Jul 3, 2013)

kathythorson said:


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I guess that would work too.


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