# Christmas set up with lights and help with AF



## CherylL (Dec 5, 2017)

I was inspired by Smoke665 and his Christmas scene.  The lights and sheet are hanging from an old projector screen.  White blanket and fake snow for the base.  I purchased a trigger, light stand, and umbrella about a year ago and haven't done much with them so all new to me.  Light stand to the left and a white board to the right for bounce.

After much trial and error I did get this set with the pups.  The LED lights wouldn't show up and googled that the shutter needs to be at 60.   The other settings ISO200, f2.8 and the speed light at 1/8 power.  Canon 5Dmarkiii, 50 1.4, 430EXii.

Normally I shoot with spot AF point, but using a tripod and shutter cable I used zone AF and One Shot.  With the pups individually it worked.  I will be taking photos of the 3 grands next together and with moving subjects and 2.8 concerns me.  If I go with a greater DOF then the wires are visible.

Any suggestions on AF points or focus modes?   Any tips would be appreciated thanks.




Grumpy Puppy Christmas 2017 by Cheryl, on Flickr


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## waday (Dec 5, 2017)




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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2017)

youre going to have a heck of a time getting three kids all in focus at 2.8 with your 50mm.

maybe try using your 85mm backed up and stopped a bit, and then you can rearrange the lights further since you have the extra compression to work with.


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## pixmedic (Dec 5, 2017)

try stopping down the lens a bit and upping the flash. for something like that background, DOF wont just be about what aperture you are at, but also where you place your focus plane. you can stop down the lens to get more in focus, but back up to where the rear of the focus plane is juuuuust behind what you want in focus. with a DOF calculator you can figure out the size of your focus plane and set up the subjects accordingly. you should be able to get what you want in focus while still rendering the background OOF.


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## CherylL (Dec 5, 2017)

I was using the 50 to get closer.  The 85 1/8 seemed to far away.  The subject was placed about 5 feet from the background and cropped and I had to photoshop the right sides since the BG isn't that wide.  Should I move the blanket on the floor away a few more feet?  I can place a white sheet to meet up with the BG.  And move the tripod further back too?

The set up:



The set up by Cheryl, on Flickr


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## tirediron (Dec 5, 2017)

Pup-dog looks more than a little irritated at being used as a model! 

If you have room to move further back, and use your 85 (or longer) than do it.  As Pixmedic explained, where you put your point of focus is as, if not more critical than how great your DoF is.


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## CherylL (Dec 5, 2017)

I plugged in the numbers using the 85 and f4.5 and I will then have 1.1ft in focus.  Makes sense now using the DOF calculator.  I do have room to back up the tripod.  Thanks for all of the replies!

The pup was super annoyed.  I had to chase him around a few times.  But no worries, he got lots of treats and a belly rub.


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2017)

btw, if you think the dogs are hard, wait till you try the kids.  ROFL.


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## smoke665 (Dec 5, 2017)

CherylL said:


> Any suggestions on AF points or focus modes? Any tips would be appreciated thanks.




Drop the background LED lights and add back post - will save you a ton of effort.
All of the Christmas shots I posted were shot with a 50 mm prime, ISO 100, f/8.0, 1/100. I was about 15' back. That gave me a total DOF of about 9 1/2 feet. Just over 3 feet in front and 6 feet behind. The "set" was staged so that the background sheet was at about 7' behind the "eyes" of the model (taking it out of focus). The fence and other items were  stacked behind as well to utilize the DOF. You'd need to calculate the DOF for your camera but should be similar.
Frankly your biggest problem appears to be lack of light. You're under powered with just one speedlight, and then shooting through an umbrella is causing you to lose even more. If you want to use speedlight you really need to use a black "reflecting" umbrella, drop it down and move it closer, then power it up to get  to an f/8 exposure on the key side. Then adjust your reflectors (plural) to put the fill where you need it. Or else change your shooting location so you can bring in ambient light and use the speedlight for fill.
It's gonna be HARD to shoot either the pooches or  grandkids (especially little ones) by yourself. You really need a helping hand. Set your camera to AF spot, sit your derriere on the floor and hold the camera so you can adjust as needed. Put that spot on the eyes, and your DOF will do the rest.


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## CherylL (Dec 5, 2017)

Braineack said:


> btw, if you think the dogs are hard, wait till you try the kids.  ROFL.



Yes, the pups will sit and stay!   With the grandgirls, the soon to be 8yo now thinks smiling is over-rated, the 4yo has spontaneous meltdowns and the 17 month baby is everywhere.


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## CherylL (Dec 5, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> CherylL said:
> 
> 
> > Any suggestions on AF points or focus modes? Any tips would be appreciated thanks.
> ...



Thanks for sharing your details!  I do have a black umbrella with silver lining.  The adding the BG lights in post did cross my mind and then I wouldn't have to worry about a slow shutter speed on a tripod.   I was trying to challenge myself.   Just to get the pups set up it took a week of trial and error and user error.  My daughter will be helping with the kids.  I call her the cat wrangler.  It was very difficult by myself with the pups.  They do not like flash.


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## smoke665 (Dec 5, 2017)

CherylL said:


> I do have a black umbrella with silver lining. The adding the BG lights in post did cross my mind and then I wouldn't have to worry about a slow shutter speed on a tripod.



I can't remember where I saw it now, but if memory serves me right I think I read where you lose almost 60% of your light when you use a shoot through umbrella. As to the background lights, it can be done in one shot, though I'm not sure you can do it with one speedlight, which is why I suggested adding them post.


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2017)

I would immediately hang the background so it is "wide", not "tall". The issue with a narrow background is that it can be difficult to get the background to fill the width of a horizontal camera shot. Making the lighted background W_I_D_E_R will immediately give you a much easier set to work with, and will allow you to use different lens focal lengths with much more ease and fluidity.

The lens focal length determines the angle of view behind the subject; a 24mm lens could fill the frame with the dog and sled, but the entire back wall would show! A 50mm to 100mm lens.

ADDING more light by upping the flash power is the wrong approach, I think.

Shutter speed and ISO are the easiest ways to regulate how bright the LED lights will be shown; the FLASH is regulated by the ISO used, and the f/stop, but the shutter speed has zero effect on the flash exposure. You can make the background lights as dim or as bright as you want, by changing the shutter's "open time duration"; adding more flash can actually be counterproductive.

If you ADD flash lighting on the subject, it will tend to make the background LED's register as dimmer...

Shutter speeds of from 1/40 to 1/8 second could be useful, for getting the LED lights to register at different brightness levels, when using say one speedlight, ISO 200, and f/8-ish. Thse LED's do NOT look all that bright to me, based on your f/2.8 exposure setting.

Lens aperture size, in both f/stop (focal ratio number) AND t*he actual, physical width of the hole *in the lens (which determines background blur, and also, depth of field. Ergo...with a small lens, like a 50mm lens at f/2.8 you get smallish bokeh balls; with a 200mm lens at f/2.8 (same focal ratio), the p_h_y_s_i_c_a_l_l_y   w_i_d_e_r    hole in the lens will create LARGER bokeh balls.

So...if you want larger out of focus bokeh balls on the background LED's, you will want to use a larger f/stop with a physically longer lens.

Moving the tripod as far back as you can, and using the absolute longest focal length lens you have (135mm,180mm,200mm,300mm) will make the background blur circles (the bokeh balls) BIGGER. This is physics...depth of field is discussed a lot, but not so the topic of background blur.

The issue with longer focal lengths is that you can get the dog to be say 1/3 the width of the entire frame, but the longer the focal length used, the narrower the angle of view _behind_ the subject. So...it's always a balancing act....camera-to-subject distance, and focal length used, and the amount of physical background width shown in the picture. Wide-angles will show lots of backdrop width; extreme telephotos will show a narrow slice of the backdrop.
**********

Looking at the basic exposure info you gave:  ISO 200, f2.8 and the speedlight at 1/8 power. Whatever the shutter speed you used, it looks GOOD. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the speedlight at 1/8 power for f/2.8 and ISO 200 and your shutter speed: *you have a VERY nice balance of the exposure triangle!!!*

But, you could get bigger bokeh balls with a longer lens, at f/2.8 or even f/4 or f/5.6, from much,much farther back than with the 50mm lens.


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## smoke665 (Dec 6, 2017)

@Derrel I agree with most everything you say with some slight differences. In the OP's first post the DOF is so shallow that when you look it enlarged the point of focus appears to be at or just past the nose, the eyes are not sharp and the ears are going OOF. Given the length of the dogs nose, I'm guessing she was less than 7-8 feet from the subject. In looking at her setup, and the room, it appears she may not have much room to backup, putting a longer focal length out of the equation for anything other than a head shot. 

As of late I've logged a few toddlers, and the first thing that comes to mind is they don't stand still, and the second thing is they move around (alot). While her exposure may be correct, it's not necessarily the right one for the subjects. By raising the aperture up to f/8 you increase the DOF sufficiently that you don't have to worry about a slight miss on focal point. I've been taught (and use from experience) that the key should be slightly above eye level. In the OP's post her setup has the key way up high, then she reduced the power level. I've had better success with adjusting the light to cover a zone (allowing some movement), adjusting the power to give me the aperture required, and moving the lights in closer or increasing the size of the light to give a softer light that will wrap around (again within the zone). What shutter speed or ISO to me is a matter of preference, I'm just more comfortable with ISO 100 and 1/100 or 1/125. 

I agree with you on the bokeh, except that given the subjects, I would eliminate a needless problem, by coming back and shooting the background sans subject and props, to get the look I wanted, then add back to the image post.


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## Derrel (Dec 6, 2017)

I would shoot is all in-camera, and not add anything in post.

ISO and shutter speed when combining an actual ambient light source is more than preference; it's a matter of requirements, because the flash-to-ambient ratio is set, and the flash is one exposure, the ambient is another. 

The height of the key is not too critical on the dog, since the floor's white rug gives huge fill bounce. But it does determine catchlights.

Wish I had more time, gotta run.


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## Designer (Dec 6, 2017)

We did the nom. for POTM, December, 2017


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## Designer (Dec 6, 2017)

CherylL said:


> The LED lights wouldn't show up and googled that the shutter needs to be at 60.   The other settings ISO200, f2.8 and the speed light at 1/8 power.


To be filed under "mostly useless information" is this little tidbit: LED lights actually are pulsing at about 60Hz.  Our perception is that they seem to be a steady glow, but when you hit the shutter opening just right, they will appear to be off.  This is why you need a longer shutter speed to see the LED lights reliably in the photo.

As for your other settings, to increase the DOF, use a smaller aperture.  Yes, that means you will need MORE light, so turn up the power on the speedlight.  Since you can figure the DOF with the DOF calculator, do the figuring before the gang shows up, so you will be ready.  Draw some imaginary lines (or use the beads, or whatever) in which to pose the children.  inform mother that they should be positioned within your imaginary posing box, and the DOF should be deep enough to get everything in focus (yes, including your props).  If the DOF is deep enough to get the sled and the beads in focus, then any child within that area should be in focus as well.  

Good luck!


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## smoke665 (Dec 6, 2017)

Designer said:


> Draw some imaginary lines (or use the beads, or whatever) in which to pose the children



I use duct tape X's stands up to the most persistent child. LOL Clone out what shows post


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## CherylL (Dec 6, 2017)

Derrel said:


> I would immediately hang the background so it is "wide", not "tall". The issue with a narrow background is that it can be difficult to get the background to fill the width of a horizontal camera shot. Making the lighted background W_I_D_E_R will immediately give you a much easier set to work with, and will allow you to use different lens focal lengths with much more ease and fluidity.
> 
> The lens focal length determines the angle of view behind the subject; a 24mm lens could fill the frame with the dog and sled, but the entire back wall would show! A 50mm to 100mm lens.
> 
> ...



Wow, lots of info I need to digest.  Agree the BG should be wide and not tall.  It is the width of the projector screen and I'll need to improvise.  I had planned on getting adult photos sitting on a stool or bench too. 

I'll work practice the next few days with the 85 and various settings.    Thank you for all of the info, much appreciated!


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## CherylL (Dec 6, 2017)

Designer said:


> We did the nom. for POTM, December, 2017



Thank you!  I am humbled


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## CherylL (Dec 6, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > Draw some imaginary lines (or use the beads, or whatever) in which to pose the children
> ...



For the kids I am using a red furry stool, small chairs and a rocking horse.  The end of the pool table serves me as a guide, but will think about something on the floor if the kids are sitting or standing ground level.  

Thanks for the help!


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## CherylL (Dec 6, 2017)

Designer said:


> CherylL said:
> 
> 
> > The LED lights wouldn't show up and googled that the shutter needs to be at 60.   The other settings ISO200, f2.8 and the speed light at 1/8 power.
> ...



I did notice that the lights would all appear at random.  If I had a constant light instead of flash I could then up my shutter speed and spray a rapid fire of photos.  Good idea on using beads as the box of focus.  Thank you!


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## Designer (Dec 6, 2017)

CherylL said:


> If I had a constant light instead of flash I could then up my shutter speed and spray a rapid fire of photos.


I don't understand.  From what I understand about constant lighting is that it is usually not enough light to allow for a fast shutter speed.  Maybe if you used constant tree lights instead of LED lights that might be better. (?)


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## Braineack (Dec 6, 2017)

CherylL said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...



I really think you should reconsider using duct tape for the kids


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## Braineack (Dec 6, 2017)

If you're using a tripod, you can always take one clean exposure with no subjects at all so you have a perfect background you're happy with.

if any of the bokeh balls don't turn up, it will be easy to superimpose your "good" background.  It's nice to have a "just in case" frame.


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## smoke665 (Dec 6, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I really think you should reconsider using duct tape for the kids



It works even better if you roll up a loop, sticky side out, then have them stand on it.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 6, 2017)

I've worked with kids and I'd suggest you get in plenty of practice and have the lighting set up figured out so you can work quickly with the kids. Use a teddy bear or whatever as a stand in! but get this all figured out because that little one is not going to be able to wait around long while you adjust equipment. The older ones should be able to do this but then again, if they will or not is another thing! lol Give some incentive, such as when this is done then ___ (you can take a break, have some juice or a cookie, go play with your phone and text your friends... maybe give them an idea of the timeframe, like you can go do ___ in say, 10 minutes, or whatever). 

The youngest one probably won't know what an X is but might know a circle or square (to direct the child to sit on the ___). I've use carpet squares because young children may do better with something more 'concrete', something they can see and touch - 'over there' could be meaningless, they probably won't know where you're pointing (over where?? lol). I was trying to think what to use that wouldn't show, maybe a washcloth folded?? Also you could use the older kids to help and have them show the littler one what to do; give everybody whatever is being used to mark the spot. (We all had our carpet square, adults too, so we could show what to do along with giving verbal directions.) 

As far as the photo, the idea for the background is lovely and this setting will make for some wonderful pictures. I think the depth of field is too shallow. I feel like I want to clean my glasses trying to see the sled clearly. If it's that close to the kids it should be in focus too. Having the background softly out of focus can work but objects close to the subjects being out of focus makes too much of the picture out of focus. Especially with objects with lettering on them - and they're part of the scene! It doesn't to me make sense to set up a a lovely scene and them have it mostly out of focus; I'd leave the OOF to the background. Practice various apertures and see how it looks.


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## Designer (Dec 6, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I really think you should reconsider using duct tape for the kids


Indeed!  Red Green's words to live by: If it's not supposed to move, use duct tape.


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## CherylL (Dec 7, 2017)

vintagesnaps said:


> I've worked with kids and I'd suggest you get in plenty of practice and have the lighting set up figured out so you can work quickly with the kids. Use a teddy bear or whatever as a stand in! but get this all figured out because that little one is not going to be able to wait around long while you adjust equipment. The older ones should be able to do this but then again, if they will or not is another thing! lol Give some incentive, such as when this is done then ___ (you can take a break, have some juice or a cookie, go play with your phone and text your friends... maybe give them an idea of the timeframe, like you can go do ___ in say, 10 minutes, or whatever).
> 
> The youngest one probably won't know what an X is but might know a circle or square (to direct the child to sit on the ___). I've use carpet squares because young children may do better with something more 'concrete', something they can see and touch - 'over there' could be meaningless, they probably won't know where you're pointing (over where?? lol). I was trying to think what to use that wouldn't show, maybe a washcloth folded?? Also you could use the older kids to help and have them show the littler one what to do; give everybody whatever is being used to mark the spot. (We all had our carpet square, adults too, so we could show what to do along with giving verbal directions.)
> 
> As far as the photo, the idea for the background is lovely and this setting will make for some wonderful pictures. I think the depth of field is too shallow. I feel like I want to clean my glasses trying to see the sled clearly. If it's that close to the kids it should be in focus too. Having the background softly out of focus can work but objects close to the subjects being out of focus makes too much of the picture out of focus. Especially with objects with lettering on them - and they're part of the scene! It doesn't to me make sense to set up a a lovely scene and them have it mostly out of focus; I'd leave the OOF to the background. Practice various apertures and see how it looks.



Good point on the sled not in focus.  There was something about the photo that didn't quite look right and the sled out of focus is a distraction.   I'll definitely have this set up before the grands come over.  The window of their patience is narrow.  The older two like to be behind the camera so they play with my sports camera that can sustain falls or I let them push the shutter and set the scene.  Other times I have asked them where they wanted to sit or pose and after a few photos of their choice then I say it is my turn to pick. This set there really aren't any choices so maybe I will let them each take a turn photographing Mom or a toy first.

My longest lens is an 85 and there is plenty of room for me to back up.  I picked up 2 50gal paint stirs to duct tape to the BG to expand and more lights.  But, space is limited for width and I need a bigger sheet. It may be easier to PS the sides.   I did a few practice shots and f3.2 works for the backdrop and gives me 0.78ft of focus.  I'll work on camera placement and people placement using stuffed animals to see what is in focus and what is not.  

Thanks for all of the tips!  Very much appreciated.


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## smoke665 (Dec 7, 2017)

CherylL said:


> . I did a few practice shots and f3.2 works for the backdrop and gives me 0.78ft of focus.



You do realize that .78 ft is is just over 9 inches and equates to rougly 4 inches in front of and behind your focal plane. So assuming you lock on the eyes, the ears will be out of focus. If that is the intent then you're good to go.


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## Derrel (Dec 8, 2017)

Well...you can use the speedlight's flash power setting and the LED exposure time and the f/stop used as the basis for calculating different exposures. Flash was at 1/8 power, so 1/4 power would be one stop smaller than f/2.8, so f/4 at 1/4 power. At 1/2 power, you could move to f/5.6. At full power, you could get an f/8 aperture for the flash part of the equation. Of course, on the LED lights, you'd need to slow the shutter down by three, full EV values from where you shot the original dog and sled picture. Using an aperture of f/8 will make the LED lights that are out of focus look smaller than they would at f/2.8, but you might be able to get some decent-looking background light bokeh nevertheless.

Slow shutter speeds, AKA "dragging the shutter", can often show no signs of motion blurring on people...it depends on how fast they are moving, and how close the ambient light is to the flash's output level.

Remember this: the FASTEST way to build depth of field is generally...to move the camera farther away from the subject. Depth of field increases very rapidly at indoor distances, as the camera-to-subject distance is increased. Stopping down helps too, but moving the camera father away from the subject can really, really help at portrait-type ranges.

Fir the dog shot, I see zero problem with the sled being out of focus; it is a hint, a reminder, a gentle clue to the snowy season. If the sled were in crisp,clear focus, I think it would compete with the dog for attention.

As far as shooting a group picture at f/3.2 from close range...kind of sketchy. But...from a longer distance with say, an 85mm lens, you could get away with it perhaps.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 8, 2017)

I think f3.2 seems too large an aperture, you'll probably need to use a smaller aperture than that to get them all in focus. My starting point, not for portraits but in general, is usually f8. Then I'd go maybe f5.6 or larger like f4 depending on what I was photographing. If you can do test shots at different apertures you can see what's in focus and how you need to adjust.


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## CherylL (Dec 8, 2017)

I've widened the BG and extended the base forward by adding another blanket.  Looking at the DOF calculator, the 50mm at f3.2 has a focus area of 2.31 ft vs the 85mm at f3.2 is 0.78.  With the little ones I am thinking the shutter speed should be 125 for movement.  That would entail adding the lights in PS that don't show up.  I'll work on practice shots the next few days.   Daughter wants solo photos of the baby and will bring her over without the other two.  The group shots would be a different day.   I can set up accordingly and not have to fiddle with the settings.


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## Designer (Dec 8, 2017)

CherylL said:


> I've widened the BG and extended the base forward by adding another blanket.  Looking at the DOF calculator, the 50mm at f3.2 has a focus area of 2.31 ft vs the 85mm at f3.2 is 0.78.  With the little ones I am thinking the shutter speed should be 125 for movement.  That would entail adding the lights in PS that don't show up.  I'll work on practice shots the next few days.   Daughter wants solo photos of the baby and will bring her over without the other two.  The group shots would be a different day.   I can set up accordingly and not have to fiddle with the settings.


You might try stopping down even more.  Maybe lots more.  f/5.6 ought to be your starting point.  Even smaller wouldn't hurt a thing.  To throw the BG out of focus, move it back as far back as you've got space.  This is the prime difficulty with most home studios; not enough space in which to stretch everything out like it needs to be.  Good luck!


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 8, 2017)

That might work well to be able to do this in 'shifts'! lol the baby then the group another time, sounds like a plan. 

I'm not too sure I'd rely on that DOF calculator. I learned shooting film (which I still do) but with a digital camera I can take a couple of test shots and look and see what I'm getting if need be. As long as you can do some practice shots then you can make adjustments (before someone with children shows up!). I think f5.6 or f8 would be what I'd try too. 

I don't know why people want the background out of focus all the time. With the lights it makes sense, but other props or decorations might as well be out of the frame and not in the scene if you don't want them in focus. I just find that whatever is there is still going to be part of the picture, it just ends up being blobs of color and shape but can still be visually distracting. If the sled or whatever is there and it adds a Christmas feeling, then it's going to be part of the picture so you might as well be able to see it.


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## CherylL (Dec 19, 2017)

I finally had a chance to try to get photos of the grandbaby.  At 15 months she is in charge.  I did get a few usable ones still to edit.   A few of the out takes.  The three grands will be next week. 




Toddler Triptych by Cheryl, on Flickr


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## smoke665 (Dec 19, 2017)

CherylL said:


> At 15 months she is in charge.



See now why I said stop down for DOF, and use duct tape 

She is a sweetheart!! Even though they don't follow instructions and have a mind of their own, I love shooting little ones.


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## CherylL (Dec 19, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> CherylL said:
> 
> 
> > At 15 months she is in charge.
> ...



Forgot the duct tape!  A slow shutter speed would not have worked.  The pups were much easier.  The other 2 are older so hopefully they will co-operate.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 19, 2017)

I like the third one of her turning and looking at you/the camera. That's a sweet one. Looks like the penguin got wiped out in the process! lol That just made me laugh. 

It probably would just help to have someone helping you, but that isn't always practical. In the end you got some nice photos. When she's a little older you'll probably be able to do more; you're right with younger ones we're on their schedule, they're not on ours.

Well she's wonderful, and you've at least got some good years between 15 months and 15 years to take lots of pictures!


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## Derrel (Dec 19, 2017)

Cute child, wonderful holiday clothing outfit. Pretty sure some of these pics will become treasured childhood memories! I LIKE the set you built and lit!


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## CherylL (Dec 20, 2017)

vintagesnaps said:


> I like the third one of her turning and looking at you/the camera. That's a sweet one. Looks like the penguin got wiped out in the process! lol That just made me laugh.
> 
> It probably would just help to have someone helping you, but that isn't always practical. In the end you got some nice photos. When she's a little older you'll probably be able to do more; you're right with younger ones we're on their schedule, they're not on ours.
> 
> Well she's wonderful, and you've at least got some good years between 15 months and 15 years to take lots of pictures!



Thanks.  My daughter was helping and the little one did not want to co-operate.  We had toys, a rocking horse which she likes and a rocking chair.  She was throwing the toys at me and laughing.  It was all a big game to her, but at 15 months what else is there.


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## CherylL (Dec 20, 2017)

Derrel said:


> Cute child, wonderful holiday clothing outfit. Pretty sure some of these pics will become treasured childhood memories! I LIKE the set you built and lit!



Thanks Derrel,  I took the advice about the background should be wider and I added another blanket to the floor to get the subject further away from the BG.   I am taking family member photos on Christmas Day so the set will at least get some use.


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