# As long as the client likes it....



## Christie Photo (Jun 30, 2008)

"As long as the client likes it....  that's ALL that matters."

I've seen this statement MANY times as a response to critiques.  REALLY?  Does anyone really feel that's all that matters?

I can't help feeling it's a "cop-out."  Further, settling for just satisfying the client doesn't advance the state of the profession, much less our own skills.

Doesn't anyone else here want the bar set higher?

-Pete


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## D-50 (Jun 30, 2008)

I agree with you.  I always hold myself to my own standard. If I dont feel its my best than  I do not want to stand behind it.  If a client is an idiot and thinka poor job is fantastic then yeah on that job you got by but what about the people who see that job? They may have higher standards than the client and consequently feel that you are not a good photographer.  I go under the idea that I must create the best I can do not just enough to please a client.

Think of it this way if a client has low expectations and you just surpass them the client is happy and thats it. If you blow your client away he/she will be amazed and most likely highly recommend you because you did an amazing job in their opinion.  I love a client with low expectations because when I give it my all they absolutely love the result


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## Lacey Anne (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, yes and no. How's that for specific? Of course I want my client to be pleased and sometimes they'll have a different opinion than you and you need to honor it because as the saying goes, the cusotmer is always right. BUT I do also want my work to be oustanding not only to those who know nothing about photography, but also to those who know a lot about it. Does that make sense? Really, my goal is to be artistic in a marketable way. I want to please myself and my consumer and also strive to better my craft.


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## Arch (Jun 30, 2008)

Lacey Anne said:


> I want my client to be pleased and sometimes they'll have a different opinion than you and you need to honor it because as the saying goes, the cusotmer is always right.



No!... nononono!!

I was about to add to this thread earlier but i had to go take a shower... and what i was about to write is an example of 'crossed industries' which demonstrates why the above phrase should NEVER be used outside of what the phrase was originated for RETAIL!!!


An example: I am a graphic designer as im sure many of you are aware... i use to work for an outdoor advertising company doing large billboard size adverts... the 'boss lady' i worked with knew 2 things about advertising and design... jack and s**t.

I would get a customer now and then that wanted to include thier entire company background on thier adverts... we are talking, everything they do, every service they offer, a description of the products etc etc...

I would sometimes get into an arguement with the 'boss lady' becuase she told me to do everything the customer asked... and used that awful phrase 'the customer is always right'...

I told her that phrase only ever exsisted for retail... its how shop assistants are told to respond to an angry customer... it has NO place in the design world.
In the end i sent 2 designs to this particular client 1 'as requested' and 1 as it should have been.. minimal info, boldly designed that a member of the public would take in, in under 5 seconds.
I explained to the client why they are wrong... after all, what does the client know about advertising?... thats why they came to us in the first place!

Needless to say after 2 months of the advert being active they were over the moon with the response.
So, fact: i know better than they do... thats why i am right and customer is wrong.


The morel of this story is... the customer is not always right other than when they want their $5 refund.
The exact same applies to photography, even if a customer does like a photo you have done, you have to make a decision... you either sell it to them and hope they never use it for anything public, and also NEVER use it in your own portfolio if you know the shot isn't really very good.
OR... you go through all your images yourself beforehand and only give them the very best of what *you* have to offer.

At the end of the day you are in a business where other people will see your end product... if the person that bought it likes it but everyone else hates it you are not likey to be doing business with them.... there is also the matter of keeping an edge to your style and keeping ahead of your competitors.


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## kellylindseyphotography (Jun 30, 2008)

Hmm in some ways I agree.  As long AS it meets my standards.

For instance.  I take 150 pictures at a session.  I put 8-15 up to choose from.  Those meet MY standards of quality.  Some I don't like the pose/expression, but I think that the client will.  

I have to take into consideration that within my personal opinion, that I have to serve the client too.  Such as, a shoot I just did... I had a picture of a baby in a basket under an arch from far off.  I LOVED it.  I also got one up close, which the client loved.  Personal preference.  I knew the client would love a close up, as every mom usually does, so I mold to that as well.

There are certain compromises I will make, such as request for soft focus (though I don't like it much) or an insistance at an article of clothing being worn.

I am confident about my abilities as the photographer to think this or that isn't my style, but I am willing to work with a client if I feel I can get a good quality product in the end.  If I feel I cannot and that it would compromise something with me, then I explain so.


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## mamarazzi_hrd (Jul 1, 2008)

I agree with ARCH, I also was a graphic designer/printing mananger and most of my clients knew nothing about advertising, design, color schemes or any of that. In fact, if they brought in a job on disk that was 'camera-ready', I would still try to talk them into letting me design something different. There were a select few that knew what they were doing.

I know that in the end, if our client DOES NOT like it, then we are wasting our time, but I always try to improve and pick the best of the best that I think is the best. We should NEVER just settle for what the client likes. The client will not be the only one seeing it!


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## Meysha (Jul 1, 2008)

I always try to shoot what the client wants and then what I want as well. Then I present both and let them pick what they want.

That way, I'm satisfied that I did my best and if the client still prefers their own then good on them.


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## Christie Photo (Jul 1, 2008)

This is all very interesting, but.....

What I was really asking about is when an image is offered HERE for critique.  Portraits, candids, commercial work.....  I'm always frustrated when ANYTHING is justified with the phrase, "The client liked it."

It my be true enough, but it doesn't necessarily mean the image cannot be improved...  or is even up to professional standards.  

It just makes it hard for me to take time to offer anything further when it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

-Pete


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## Rachelsne (Jul 1, 2008)

If a client has asked for something then its fine (even if its nasty) but if you take a crap picture and the client likes it because they dont know better then yes its a copout


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## Christie Photo (Jul 1, 2008)

Rachelsne said:


> If a client has asked for something then its fine (even if its nasty)



BUT...  should that "nasty" image be offered here for critique only to be defended with, "That's what they wanted"?


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## kellylindseyphotography (Jul 1, 2008)

Christie Photo said:


> This is all very interesting, but.....
> 
> What I was really asking about is when an image is offered HERE for critique.  Portraits, candids, commercial work.....  I'm always frustrated when ANYTHING is justified with the phrase, "The client liked it."
> 
> ...



hmm, ahh I see what you are getting at.

I actually have said that on one of my critiques, where I had done a soft focus though I didn't particularly care for soft focus.

I guess it's a fine line...  I'm not sure how far you can take the "client likes it" mentality, only so far I suppose.  

I dunno.  Need to think on this more.


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## Jedo_03 (Jul 5, 2008)

We see variability of opinion in the forum about posted pics...
Happens quite often that I see pics offered for critique where some people like 'em and some people don't...
Get's to me when under-exposed, flat, blurry, OOF, poor DOF, crap colour-images are critiqued as "spot-on:good colour rendition; great comp" etc... so I guess they must have eyes like the "clients" who would pay good money for shoddy goods...
On another perspective though: clients (esp parents) see photographs differently - not through professional eyes, but with goo-gah adoration and would probably accept photocopy quality images of their kids - simply because it's "their" kid...
I think that if a parent specifically requests (say) pics of their kids in soft focus or Sabattier effect, then give 'em what they ask for - but, hey... give 'em the very best quality images you are capable of... That's a very lot different from screwing-up the focus of an image and passing it off as "soft focus" - _"Oh... i was going for soft focus_..."
Jedo


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## verobooth (Jul 5, 2008)

I agree with you... but when it comes down to it, the client HAS to like it... at least if you want to stay in biz!


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## Jon, The Elder (Jul 5, 2008)

Jedo_03  has made some very good points.

I shoot for money at horse events.  Shots can be technically right on and still not sell.  I've had near perfect photos rejected because the riders eyes were looking in the 'not-quite-right' direction.


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## Christie Photo (Jul 5, 2008)

OK.  Maybe if I put it like this:  I'm seeing the sale of an image as a totally separate event, unrelated to submitting it here for a critique.

For example, years back when I would submit photographs to accredited PPofA competitions, a photographer might offer a portrait of a young girl and title it "Timeless Beauty" or something like that.  It was not unusual to hear judges say, "You should have chosen a prettier model, since you say you're depicting beauty."  It didn't matter that the client never looked better, or if the image was perfect in every other way, or if it was the photographers largest sale ever.

So....  coming down quite a few notches from that sort of scrutiny....   if a portrait is presented here, and the lighting is lacking, or the posing is weak, or the clothing selection is bad, whatever the case....  is it OK to justify all that just because the maker was able to sell it?

-Pete


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## tirediron (Jul 5, 2008)

By no means is the client liking it enough to justify a crap picture, but it depends on why it's being called crap; if it's for a purely technical reason (you totally blew the white dress she was wearing) that goes straight in the bit-bucket, but if it's crap because little junior's got three fingers shoved in his mouth and you were doing a formal portrait shoot and Mommy loves, it, that's a different story, and for that sort of thing, I would justify it with "the client liked it" (accompanied by sticking out my tongue and going "Nyahhhh" of course).


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## Meysha (Jul 5, 2008)

I see what you're meaning now.

In my opinion "the client liked it" is not good enough for this forum. Unless your reason for posting it is to figure out why they liked it over the one you preferred. That I think is legit.

But asking us to critique a photo that you don't like, and obviously know you can do better is pretty much a waste of time.


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## MelodySoul (Jul 5, 2008)

"The client liked it" does not justify a technically bad photograph, but it can justify a certain style or pose that you may not like that the client wanted IMO.


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## mmcduffie1 (Jul 7, 2008)

The client is the one that has to look at the photos. I try to give them what they want and what I know they need. But in the end the customer is always right. Take a wedding for instance... it's not your wedding and you don't know how they want to remember it. So get the shots you know are good and go ahead and do the ones they want. No harm no foul.


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## LaFoto (Jul 7, 2008)

The way I understand Pete's issue, it is not about the interaction between photographer and client *as such*, but about the defense a _poster to TPF_ my put up when in reply to their photo _another member of TPF_ had said "This photo has issues here, there and there", and when that defense then is "OK, you may be right, but _what does it matter when my client liked it_?" All he wants to point out that a stance of the kind is against learning what CAN be done better. Do I get you right, Pete?


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## Robin (Jul 7, 2008)

Christie Photo said:


> This is all very interesting, but.....
> 
> What I was really asking about is when an image is offered HERE for critique. Portraits, candids, commercial work..... I'm always frustrated when ANYTHING is justified with the phrase, "The client liked it."
> 
> ...


 
In terms of that, no, I don't think that what the client liked is all that matters.

In terms of dealing with the client then yes, as long as they are happy that's all that matters. But to say that the client liking it must mean the photo is perfect is foolish. Once the client is gone and you're looking for work to put in your portfolio or on display for others to view and critique, it's a different story.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 7, 2008)

Christie Photo said:


> "As long as the client likes it.... that's ALL that matters."
> 
> I've seen this statement MANY times as a response to critiques. REALLY? Does anyone really feel that's all that matters?
> 
> ...


 
Skipping the rest of the thread...

If it's used as an excuse to justify work that you're showing off that was shot for a client and people are not receiving it well, it's a cop out.

If it's used as an excuse to why you're showing off work that you don't really care for and are looking for a way to help improve it so it fits what your client wants, then it's a plea for help.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 7, 2008)

*ARCH* - What if your client wants HDR or the Dave Hill look? You know, over saturation, over use of the USM, as many lights as you can stick in the photo. You know it's played out and you know that none of your peers are going to really like it because they've seen it a million times, but are you really going to turn down $100? $500? $1000? $2500?

What's your price? Everyone is supposed to have a price, right?


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## Arch (Jul 7, 2008)

Arch said:


> sell it to them and hope they never use it for anything public, and also NEVER use it in your own portfolio if you know the shot isn't really very good.



I would choose this option from my last comment. 

Of course you shouldn't refuse to do work... but you can be very influential if you choose to be. The client doesn't know how everything works and you should be able to make something good of it whilst still fulfilling the clients wishes. Whether you would then use it in your own portfolio is another matter.



Meysha said:


> I see what you're meaning now.
> 
> In my opinion "the client liked it" is not good enough for this forum. Unless your reason for posting it is to figure out why they liked it over the one you preferred. That I think is legit.
> 
> But asking us to critique a photo that you don't like, and obviously know you can do better is pretty much a waste of time.



Back to what Pete actually ment... yes i agree with this.



mmcduffie1 said:


> The client is the one that has to look at the photos. I try to give them what they want and what I know they need.* But in the end the customer is always right.* Take a wedding for instance... it's not your wedding and you don't know how they want to remember it. So get the shots you know are good and go ahead and do the ones they want. No harm no foul.



 didn't you read my last post ><... ah well... i guess i just have to live and let live


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## Christie Photo (Jul 8, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> The way I understand Pete's issue, it is not about the interaction between photographer and client *as such*, but about the defense a _poster to TPF_ my put up when in reply to their photo _another member of TPF_ had said "This photo has issues here, there and there", and when that defense then is "OK, you may be right, but _what does it matter when my client liked it_?" All he wants to point out that a stance of the kind is against learning what CAN be done better. Do I get you right, Pete?





BINGO!

Thanks, Corinna.  You've put it much better than I.


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## StillImage (Jul 8, 2008)

Seems odd to me, if it has sold and they (the customers) are happy why would you put it up for critique? If it is a crappy photo why has my customer seen it in the first place? If a photo is not the best I can do, it does not ever make it to the customer to view. I come to forums like this, I see people who pass themselves off as professional photographers but yet come to a forum and ask for critiques from the general forum population. If I am having issues with a shoot, or not happy with the way my photos are turning out I might consult with someone whose work I know , admire and respect and talk over the job just to vent and eventually figure it out myself, but would never post on an open forum and ask for critiques. Seems just so unprofessional to me, if you need to get feedback on an open forum, not to rattle any chains, how professional are you if your asking just anyone for feedback.

 If you are starting out I can see finding a few photographers who you respect to give you some pointers but never from those whose work I am unfamiliar with or whose work I hold in no regard. Seems a lot of people pass themselves off as professional but one has to wonder how good they are when they would post on open forum and get critiques from people who range from beginner to I imagine very professional. I understand beginners and hobbyist seeking critiques but claiming your a professional and then posting for critiques here just seems odd to me. If any of my clients seen me do that they would flee in droves, I am am the professional, why would I be asking amateurs or hobbyists for any critiques. Then if they found work they paid for on a forum to be critiqued I would be laughed out of the business. 

 I think helping those who are just starting is great, and helping them make decisions but they at that point should be sure of their work, know what they are doing as far as being a photographer goes, because being a good photographer does not make you a good business person and that is where I am wiling to try and give advice, if your trying to tell me your a professional and then post work here for critique well go back and learn to be a photographer first then worry about a business. I do also understand posting to share that is just different than asking for critiques. Not looking to get anyone angry just how I see it. I should be my own worse critic, if it passes my critiques it should pass anyones. The customer is never right, it is why they are hiring me I am the professional and not them. They expect me to know what I am doing and not after a shoot run to forum and ask what others think, why was I hired if I don't know what I am doing?


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## reg (Jul 8, 2008)

Christie Photo said:


> BUT...  should that "nasty" image be offered here for critique only to be defended with, "That's what they wanted"?



And who says that the TPF critique forums are an end all, be all for photography?

I think that "what they wanted" or "good enough" IS good enough if they're not charging 6k for a wedding. If they're taking the McPhoto, or more lovingly, the Walmart Portrait Studio approach, and charging as such, then it's good enough for _someone _out there.

Who are you to define what is and is not? Even if it's a horrible photo to most, I'm sure someone out there has an 8x10 on their bedside of the loving, young couple they used to be that was taken on a disposable camera and was blown up at Wal-mart, and I'm sure that even more out there these days have great memories, complete with blown out skies and even a CUT-OFF FINGER!!! in the picture, but it was THEIR wedding and if all they could get was the cousin with the Coolpix then that was all they could get. 

Who are you to say that ISN'T good enough?


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## manaheim (Jul 8, 2008)

Not to be glib, but isn't _any_ defense against a critique when one posts _asking_ for critique just kind of silly?

Discussion is fine, but defensive remarks are pointless and (IMO) a clear indication that the poster was more likely looking for an "'attaboy!" than any real critique.


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## Christie Photo (Jul 9, 2008)

reg said:


> And who says that the TPF critique forums are an end all, be all for photography? .... Who are you to say that ISN'T good enough?



I don't think I (or anyone else) said either.

Are you suggesting that customer satisfaction should be the measure of our art?

AGAIN....  Suppose I make a portrait and the customer is well pleased.  He/she has never been happier with any image.  It made them feel like a star.  They bought a 30x40 canvas and forty 8x10s for all the family and friends.  Wonderful.

Now...  I post the same image here, and several critiques point out some things that don't adhere to today's conventional reasoning.  Some valid points are made on how the posing could be improved.  Maybe I was careless about the way the clothing fit, or failed to fine-tune my lighting.  Whatever.

What benefit is it to me (or the art of photography) if a poster simply shrugs and says, "As long as the client likes it."?  This statement suggests that I'm finished.  There's nothing more I need to learn.  I have no responsibility to the profession to refine my skills or develop my knowledge of the art.  I guess what I really feel is a statement like that is injurious to the profession, telling me to be satisfied with where I am in my growth.

Does any of this make sense?

-Pete


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## reg (Jul 10, 2008)

manaheim said:


> Not to be glib, but isn't _any_ defense against a critique when one posts _asking_ for critique just kind of silly?
> 
> Discussion is fine, but defensive remarks are pointless and (IMO) a clear indication that the poster was more likely looking for an "'attaboy!" than any real critique.



This, too, though. I'm not saying that you should put "the client liked it" as an excuse when you get critique you asked for, but as far as the business side goes it's all that matters.


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## manaheim (Jul 10, 2008)

reg said:


> This, too, though. I'm not saying that you should put "the client liked it" as an excuse when you get critique you asked for, but as far as the business side goes it's all that matters.


 
I don't think that's what OP was asking, however. (regardless of whether or not I agree with your statement)


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## epatsellis (Jul 10, 2008)

I'll jump in with an example:

I was shooting some products for a local manufacturer, after lighting it just so, the "art director" decided he didn't like the fact that there wasn't a shadow here and here...so after goboing shadows, he loves it, pays me my hourly studio rate (including the time spent screwing around with his crazy shadow idea) check comes, clears, life is good. 

If you're in the business to earn a living, the only person's opinion that matters is the clients, as long as they're signing the check.


erie


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