# Shooting weddings



## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

This is not a shot at anyone, it is a legitimate question.  How do wedding photographers justify charging the fees they do?  I understand the professional side, experience, editing and the minor PS work, etc.  But how does someone justify charging $5000 and up to shoot a wedding.  I understand the packages, prints albums.  From a $5000 wedding how much does the photographer really clear, how much of that is a straight up fee, or would that include the albums and prints.

Thanks.


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## Double H (Mar 11, 2013)

Why Wedding Photographers' Prices are ?Wack?

copied from above 
...Dear Bride,I am a wedding photographer in the Erie, PA area. Wedding season only last about 4 months here, so I photograph an average of 20 weddings per year for an average of $2,500/wedding (which totals about *$50,000/year*).


That being said, I am a small business owner, so I pay all of my taxes, totaling about $15,000/year, which leaves me with a gross income of around *$35,000*
Of that $35,000 I pay $600/month in rent for my small house and garage which I converted into my studio (which is where I would be editing your wedding images).*$35,000 &#8211; $7,200 = $27,800*
Then I have my car, which I would use to get me to and from your wedding, which I pay $400/month for the lease, plus $200/month in car insurance. *$27,800 &#8211; $7,200 = $20,600*
To get to your (and my other brides) wedding consultation, second wedding pre-consultation, the wedding itself, and to and from the printers I spend $840/year in gas money. *$20,600 &#8211; $840 = $19,760*
I also have $500/year insurance in case you sue me, or if any of your drunk guests would happen to break any of my equipment. *$19,760 &#8211; $500 = $19,260*
You also probably found me through my website, which I pay $30/month for hosting, and another $30/month so that you can view your photos online and share the images with your friends and family. *$19,260 &#8211; $720 = $18,540*
Or perhaps you found me through my advertisements in the newspaper or local bridal magazines, or a bridal show that you attended that I paid to have a booth at. *$18,540 &#8211; $1,000 = $17,540*
I also pay $250/month for my own health insurance in case I were to get hurt at your wedding. *$17,540 &#8211; $3,000 = $14,540*
I pay $200/wedding for a second shooter for your wedding, so that you can have more images and different angles, as to make sure you get the best images possible at your wedding. *$14,540 &#8211; $4,000 = $10,540*
I also need to have a new pair of shoes ($100) every season because my shoes get worn out and dirty from season to season. *$10,540 &#8211; $100 = $10,440*
I need high speed internet so I can upload all of your images online, my home phone for my business and my cell phone so I can communicate with you. *$10,440 &#8211; $2,500 = $7,940*
Oh yes, and I also pay a lawyer to make sure my contracts are iron clad and an accountant to make sure that I am paying all of the taxes I need. *$7,940 &#8211; $500 = $7,440*
Sometimes I attend workshops and seminars to teach me how to better my business, and make my client happier (that would be you), as well as keep up on the trends and learn new techniques so that I can make sure you have the best quality images available.
That would technically leave me with about *$7,000/year* to feed myself, buy groceries, pay for my heat and electricity, clothe myself, etc. _But_, usually I end up reinvesting whatever I have left on upgrades and new equipment:
During your wedding, I bring my professional equipment that I use so that I can make sure you have the highest quality images.


I have 2 Canon 5D Mark II cameras (because you always need a backup in case of a camera malfunction, which would ruin your big day&#8217;s photographs) which cost $2,500/camera =*$5,000*
I also have quality lenses which can capture your special moments in low light situations:
Canon 24-70 f/2.8 lens = *$1,200*
Canon 70-200 f/2.8 lens = *$1,300*
Canon 50mm f/1.4 lens = *$500*
Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro = *$600*
&#8230;and I have speed lights to catch the fun moments at your reception:
2 x Canon 580EX II = *$1,200*
Also multiple battery backups and memory cards, lens filters, light stands, umbrellas, light boxes, external battery packs and a bag to carry everything in = *$1,500*
Because this is equipment, sometimes I need to have it serviced or cleaned to make sure it is all working properly = *$200*
After spending 8-10 hours at your wedding, I then come home to my home office and spend about *20-25 hours* editing your images, creating your album, blogging about your wedding, posting pictures on Facebook, ordering you prints and burning your DVDs.


I edit your photographs using a 27-inch iMac computer = *$2,500*.
I edit your photographs on Adobe Lightroom (*$200*) and Adobe CS5 (*$400* for the upgrade and *$900* for the new program).
I print your DVDs on a printer which costs *$300* and which uses *$200/year* in ink.
I buy the DVDs and jewel cases you&#8217;re getting printed for *$300/year*
I archive all of your photographs on 2 x 2TB external hard drives = *$500*.
I also back up all of my photographs online so if there was ever a fire in my office, you would never lose your photographs = *$400/year*.
I also have office expenses as far as buying paper, staples, envelopes, packaging, filing cabinets and files, etc&#8230;
I also spend time and money ordering your prints and albums, paying for shipping, going to the post office etc.
All of that being said, I&#8217;m usually in the hole at the end of the year, and take on many family portraits, senior portraits and corporate jobs in order to make ends meet


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

Double H said:


> All of that being said, I&#8217;m usually in the hole at the end of the year, and take on many family portraits, senior portraits and corporate jobs in order to make ends meet



Maybe not everyone is in the hole after a year, but this is the best breakdown I've ever seen of the business expenses of wedding/portrait photogaphy. 

I like how it's geared toward the client too.


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## Double H (Mar 11, 2013)

> Maybe not everyone is in the hole after a year, but this is the best breakdown I've ever seen of the business expenses of wedding/portrait photogaphy.
> 
> I like how it's geared toward the client too.



Sure, absolutely. This is a great breakdown, though. I've used for teaching purposes. I know I don't turn away any of the aforementioned jobs.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

If by using this as a typical model, why then would this person even shoot weddings?  If he is in the hole at the end of the year he has  been shooting them for free.  The camera equipment is a 4-5 year write off.  He is not buying brand new gear every year, or a new computer every year or building a studio every year.  But it is a well thought out break down to help convince someone the reasons behind the fee.

It still goes back to the question.  If he is losing money every year why shoot weddings?


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## Double H (Mar 11, 2013)

Let's not over think this. The point of the piece was to simply educate someone on things to consider when asking about price. Put away your calculator.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

It doesn't answer my original question?


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## rexbobcat (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm more curious where the hell they bought 2 580EX II speedlites for $600 each. Seems like he would have found a place selling them for less considering that he's apparently really tight on money lol.

Honestly, I always thought that they charged so much because they might not get as much work consistently as people working in other areas.


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## pixmedic (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> If by using this as a typical model, why then would this person even shoot weddings?  If he is in the hole at the end of the year he has  been shooting them for free.  The camera equipment is a 4-5 year write off.  He is not buying brand new gear every year, or a new computer every year or building a studio every year.  But it is a well thought out break down to help convince someone the reasons behind the fee.
> 
> It still goes back to the question.  If he is losing money every year why shoot weddings?



They werent losing money.  They paid their mortgage, car payment, and a bunch of other bills.  They may not have made enough to cover ALL their bills with just weddings,  but portraits and other gigs made up for it.  Even by that model, photography was their only job and paid all of their bills.  Not too shabby, especially if they have a spouse also working. If they had money to pay bills after business expenses were paid,  they made a profit.


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## ronlane (Mar 11, 2013)

Your original question was how do they justify charging so much. The answer to that was in his post, which is "I need to make $XX,XXX.XX for the year."

You next question about lossing money, then why shoot weddings. Well, there are a lot of guesses here, but here are a couple to offer you. 1) They can't make that much money working a limited schedule doing anything else. 2) They just love shooting weddings. (Just my $0.02)

You love shooting sports, correct? Would you do it whether or not you made money at it?


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> It doesn't answer my original question?



Why shouldn't wedding photographers get _paid _to do what they are good at? This particular photographer has gone to great lengths to show you that the round fee you see as excessive, is not really excessive (all things considered). 

Also:

"If you're good at something, don't do it for free."


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## Double H (Mar 11, 2013)

Perhaps this is what I should have posted. Plug in your own numbers and let the link do the math.
Cost of doing business calculator


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## curtyoungblood (Mar 11, 2013)

This won't answer your question exactly or specifically, but I was recently playing around with a cost of doing business calculator. I was mostly just playing to see what it would take if I ever decide to work for myself. I filled out all the boxes to a bare minimum, and it said I would need to make about $700 a day to be able to cover costs and get a salary around 40,000. 

If you assume that the numbers are right above, then 8 hours of shooting time (this sounds reasonable if you include pre-sessions and stuff) and 20 hours editing, then that is 3.5 days. 3.5 days at 700 is about 2,500. I can easily see where adding a few more (probably realistic) business expenses and wanting to make more money, you can get up to 5,000 pretty quickly. Also, in my experiences, the $5,000 wedding are the fully-loaded weddings, and people seem to spend closer to the 3,000 to 3,500 range.

***I was using the NPPA calculator, which got posted while I was typing.


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## Double H (Mar 11, 2013)

curtyoungblood said:


> This won't answer your question exactly or specifically, but I was recently playing around with a cost of doing business calculator. I was mostly just playing to see what it would take if I ever decide to work for myself. I filled out all the boxes to a bare minimum, and it said I would need to make about $700 a day to be able to cover costs and get a salary around 40,000.
> 
> If you assume that the numbers are right above, then 8 hours of shooting time (this sounds reasonable if you include pre-sessions and stuff) and 20 hours editing, then that is 3.5 days. 3.5 days at 700 is about 2,500. I can easily see where adding a few more (probably realistic) business expenses and wanting to make more money, you can get up to 5,000 pretty quickly. Also, in my experiences, the $5,000 wedding are the fully-loaded weddings, and people seem to spend closer to the 3,000 to 3,500 range.
> 
> ***I was using the NPPA calculator, which got posted while I was typing.



I spent a lot of time with this calculator before I left my teaching job to go fulltime with my business. Every few months the numbers got better and better, and more realistic. Very powerful tool, indeed.


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## Designer (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> It doesn't answer my original question?



They charge what they charge because they can.  

Some more, some less than your example, but they all charge what they can.


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## Designer (Mar 11, 2013)

Double H said:


> I spent a lot of time with this calculator before I left my teaching job to go fulltime with my business. Every few months the numbers got better and better, and more realistic. Very powerful tool, indeed.



Those numbers are not unrealistic.  A car will only run for a few hundred thousand miles (on average), a computer becomes obsolete two or three years after you take it home, cameras and lights do break sometimes.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't answer my original question?
> ...



I didn't question if they should get paid or not, I asked how do they justify charging $5000+ for a wedding, and how much do they clear shooting a wedding.  I see how the one photographer broke down his expenses, and those expenses are pretty much the same as most professional photographers.  I also never said the fees were excessive.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> I didn't question if they should get paid or not, I asked how do they justify charging $5000+ for a wedding, and how much do they clear shooting a wedding. I see how the one photographer broke down his expenses, and those expenses are pretty much the same as most professional photographers. I also never said the fees were excessive.



To use your own words:



imagemaker46 said:


> how do they *justify *charging $5000+ for a wedding, and how much do they clear shooting a wedding.






imagemaker46 said:


> How do wedding photographers *justify *charging the fees they do? I understand the professional side, experience, editing and the minor PS work, etc. But how does someone justify charging $5000 and up to shoot a wedding.






imagemaker46 said:


> I also never said the fees were excessive.




But, you implied and continue to imply the fees *are *excessive by using words like "justify". How does a plastic surgeon *justify *charging $6,000 + per procedure? How does a cashier *justify *making $9/hr? 

It's all relative. If someone is willing to pay for the services at that price, then they can charge that price. As a professional photographer, which I think you are, I'm surprised that of all people you would be asking this question. 

Do years of experience, tens of thousands in gear, and a dedication to provide professional services not justify the price a wedding photographer sets?


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

Plastic surgeon...photographer.  I suppose they are the same one buys a $5.00 scalpel and opens up a practice, one buys a $600 camera is a professional.  Don't start dragging this into another one of those mindless comparison threads.

As a  photographer that doesn't work in this field, is exactly why I'm asking the question.  I know how much I spend/make/earn on each assignment I do.  If I don't know how much someone who does weddings clears on each shoot, it has nothing to do with being a professional photographer. I did expect to get swarmed on this question.

I know that if I shoot for 4 hours and clear $500 that's pretty good for shooting sports, and I am dealing with all the same conditions as a wedding photographer that is charging $5000 for the same time period, apart from me being in the wrong area of photography. I know what the sports market is like so I know what I can charge, and it's a lot less than what wedding photographers make.  Maybe I should just start shooting weddings.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Maybe I should just start shooting weddings.



So the heart of the matter is reached


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm not trying to be a dick about any of this, I'm just curious.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

Also worth considering, in a lot of markets when you start getting into the $5k+ area, you're talking about big photographers with well-known names. Not saying some normal wedding photographers can't/don't charge $5k, just saying when you're starting to get into the higher prices the brand/reputation/quality of work becomes a bigger factor. So you're somewhat paying for the name and the reputation attached to that name.

Also, there's no re-do's on weddings. So you want to make sure whoever you hire _nails it_, the first time. Some people are willing to pay more for that than others.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

Oh I know all about the name factor, there is one here in my home town that lives on it, biggest jerk you'd ever meet when things don't go his way he whines, but he does do some amazing work.  I would also guess that his wedding packages start over $10k. He is dealing with a massive overhead, his studio is the building he owns, he has staff hair, makeup, computer techs, lighting specialists, basically he's the trigger man, he probably pays out close to $1500-2000 to his day staff. Kind of like what Karsh did in the day, without the computer, but film re-touchers.

I can understand where his fees come from, I've known him a long time.  But most wedding photographers don't have studios and their overhead is considerable lower, I think the question should have been how these types justify the fees.


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

Double H said:


> Why Wedding Photographers' Prices are ?Wack?



I'm going to go against the grain here and say that this break down, includes costs of living into expenses. Which isn't how things work.
You don't include your home rent, your car payment, your own health insurance, shoes (really?) etc.


On top of that, the equipment list reads as if every year, you have the same expenses. So if you bought all of that stuff up front, and include it in your first years expenses, you can't include it in any other years expenses.
And it's all tax deductible. 

This is another inflated CODB list.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> Double H said:
> 
> 
> > Why Wedding Photographers' Prices are ?Wack?
> ...



Exactly.  I work out of my home, but all of my shoots are on location.  I write off as much as I can on income tax.  When I do a shoot out of town all of my expenses are covered, everything.  My camera bodies last me anywhere between 5-8 years all the glass I have lasts 10+ years, laptops every 2-3 years.


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## LouR (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> _snip_
> 
> I know that if I shoot for 4 hours and clear $500 that's pretty good for shooting sports, and I am dealing with all the same conditions as a wedding photographer that is charging $5000 for the same time period, apart from me being in the wrong area of photography. I know what the sports market is like so I know what I can charge, and it's a lot less than what wedding photographers make.  Maybe I should just start shooting weddings.


  The two are most definitely NOT the same. Our studio did weddings, sports, fine art portraits and schools.  There is a protocol for each situation and you can't compare any of them to each other besides the fact cameras are involved.  A good professional wedding photographer will be with the bride from dressing, hair and makeup until she and her groom say good night and the party's over (about 12 hours).  A second shooter should be with the groom.  Both randoms and posed shots are taken.  Each photographer _should_ have more than one camera, a pile of flash cards and several batteries.  That's a wedding shoot.
Sports shoot: Stand on the side of the field/court and shoot.  If doing team portraits,set up backgrounds and lights, pose them and shoot. Have extra equipment as well, similar to the wedding gig.
Regarding the wedding shoot, there could be in excess of 200 images, sometimes close to 1,000 that have to be edited down.  Once that is done, a proof book will be made and the happy couple get to choose what they want in their books and on their walls.  Once that's been done, retouching and designing the book pages start.  More approvals before the final product is delivered, which,  depending on the speed of the happy couple, could come down to about 6-8 months.  We have, however worked on wedding shoots that were done 2 years prior because of the slowness of the couple.
Sports shoots:  Post pictures on a website to sell.  No retouching, no proof books, no albums to design. Maybe design posters or borders.
We would have brides taking months to make their choices, then while we're retouching and designing and editing, they're calling in a panic wondering where their books are.  I am actually surprised that people in the photography business are just as clueless.


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## Robin_Usagani (Mar 11, 2013)

Well.. to start one of the albums I offer will cost me $600 - $700  before profit, that right there will bring up the total price to $4000+ range.  

It is simple.  It is like getting a tattoo.  Bad artist will do the same amount of work as an awesome tattoo artist.  You justify it with your TALENT, not by the service you provide.


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)




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## 12sndsgood (Mar 11, 2013)

why does nike make shoes that cost $5 bucks to make for 200 and (insert generic shoe company) make shoes that cost 3 bucks to make for $20   name brand. once your known and people want you and come to you, you can afford to raise the costs. that usually comes with experience. but not always.  to go with your 4 hours for $500 theory. if your working 12 hours for a wedding with two guys thats roughly 3 grand rigth there to "match" your pricing. diffrence is as a wedding photographer you have more leeway to adjust pricing upwards (if your good)


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> why does nike make shoes that cost $5 bucks to make for 200 and (insert generic shoe company) make shoes that cost 3 bucks to make for $20   name brand. once your known and people want you and come to you, you can afford to raise the costs. that usually comes with experience. but not always.  to go with your 4 hours for $500 theory. if your working 12 hours for a wedding with two guys thats roughly 3 grand rigth there to "match" your pricing. diffrence is as a wedding photographer you have more leeway to adjust pricing upwards (if your good)



The thing is with clothing, is that you aren't just paying the $5 in materials and labor. You are paying the multi-million dollar expenses of logistics which includes storage, shipping, and distribution, top tier advertising, shoe designers, celebrity endorsers, etc. While I agree that the name brand adds price, many low skilled photographers are charging upwards of $3k without any product overhead and then making blog posts using their clothing, car payments and home rent as "expenses" to justify why they charge what they do.

(This paragraph isn't directed at anyone) I can't help but to look at the portfolios of these complaining wedding photographers justifying their $5k fee for a whopping 40 hours of work, and seeing piss poor excuses of photographs. The work aside, if you provide photography that no one else does and you are charging more, you have my complete support. But if you are comparing your work side by side with other high charing photographers(or what ever your fee level may be), and you wind up embarrassed .. don't think that a laundry list of what adds up to a regular full time work week is justification for your fee. A good wedding photographer takes good photos, which is at the end of the day what someone is paying for.

Some people will say that the end result is not what you are charging for, which is fine, but that isn't what the client is paying for.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I am not trying to portray opinion as fact. You can discern which is fact and which is opinion.


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## Greiver (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> If by using this as a typical model, why then would this person even shoot weddings?  If he is in the hole at the end of the year he has  been shooting them for free.  The camera equipment is a 4-5 year write off.  He is not buying brand new gear every year, or a new computer every year or building a studio every year.  But it is a well thought out break down to help convince someone the reasons behind the fee.
> 
> It still goes back to the question.  If he is losing money every year why shoot weddings?


After seeing a senior member here post his own horrible experience about his wedding photographer taking garbage photos, I can guess that these people wanna make sure that people get really good photo's for what is probably the biggest day of their lives. And sadly such a high price is necessary.


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## Buckster (Mar 11, 2013)

OMG.  Schwetty is now "a senior member".  

_Something about that just tickles me..._


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

LouR said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > _snip_
> ...





Here's one for you.  I've shot eight Olympics, I put in 20 straight days working 15-20 hours per day, Shot in -45c conditions for hours at a time, being on a ski hill 3 hours before an event starts and 2 hours getting down off the hill after the event is over, responsible for all the Id's and transmission of  edited images.  Equipment required more than most wedding photographers could carry around, 400 2.8, 500mm, 600mm, three bodies.  When was the last wedding that required 6 layers of clothes to stay warm or working in 130 degree heat for 10 hours? Getting up at 3am to get to a good photo spot "on the sidelines" to sit and wait for a 10 second race that is happening 11 hours later, and not being able to leave that spot. You can try and tell me that shooting weddings are difficult, but don't try to even understand the sports side of photography.


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## kathyt (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> LouR said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



You should have met my last bride!


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> LouR said:
> 
> 
> > The two are most definitely NOT the same. Our studio did weddings, sports, fine art portraits and schools. There is a protocol for each situation and you can't compare any of them to each other besides the fact cameras are involved. A good professional wedding photographer will be with the bride from dressing, hair and makeup until she and her groom say good night and the party's over (about 12 hours). A second shooter should be with the groom. Both randoms and posed shots are taken. Each photographer _should_ have more than one camera, a pile of flash cards and several batteries. That's a wedding shoot.
> ...


I saw that coming lol.


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > LouR said:
> ...



Go on


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## rexbobcat (Mar 11, 2013)

Let's play the "You think THAT'S bad?" game.

I know a wildlife photographer who built a cabin, and then camped out without running water or electricity in the winter for months on end in order to get shots for publications.

Do I win? Is there a prize?


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 11, 2013)

Once my camera got splashed by salt water 5 times. 

Once.


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## Greiver (Mar 11, 2013)

Buckster said:


> OMG.  Schwetty is now "a senior member".
> 
> _Something about that just tickles me..._



I didn't know what other term to use. XD More advanced member.


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> Once my camera got splashed by salt water 5 times.
> 
> Once.


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## Greiver (Mar 11, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> Rotanimod said:
> 
> 
> > Once my camera got splashed by salt water 5 times.
> ...


That escalated quickly...


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2013)

As I expected.  I asked a simple question and some of the people that weigh in make uneducated comments.  It seems that when I make a comment correcting the uneducated about the area of photography that I work in, the idiots decide to add to their post totals without offering any intelligent information.


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## Buckster (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> As I expected.  I asked a simple question and some of the people that weigh in make uneducated comments.  It seems that when I make a comment correcting the uneducated about the area of photography that I work in, the idiots decide to add to their post totals without offering any intelligent information.


Quit being so modest.


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## Ballistics (Mar 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> As I expected.  I asked a simple question and some of the people that weigh in make uneducated comments.  It seems that when I make a comment correcting the uneducated about the area of photography that I work in, the idiots decide to add to their post totals without offering any intelligent information.



Hey now, I weighed in. No one responded to me though lol.


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## kathyt (Mar 11, 2013)

These wedding threads are causing me to online shop excessively and frivously. Carry on. 
[h=1][/h]


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## tirediron (Mar 11, 2013)

Locked per OP request.


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