# Price of petrol/gas



## Jeff15




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## smoke665

I feel the pain. Diesel fuel is at $5/gal. That's $200 to fill up the 40 gal main tank on the F350.


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## TreeofLifeStairs

smoke665 said:


> I feel the pain. Diesel fuel is at $5/gal. That's $200 to fill up the 40 gal main tank on the F350.


The obvious solution here is for you to buy that one ton electric truck…oh wait, that doesn’t exist. :/


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## smoke665

@TreeofLifeStairs you know, I grow thousands of bushels of corn and soybeans every year. For less than $5k I could buy a column still to produce ethanol and a press/filter to produce soybean oil. Not only could I fuel my car and truck, but I could drink the shine, and cook with the oil........now that's a environmental win!!!!! LOL


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## jeffashman

Almost 90% of the People where I work want to continue working from home. With these fuel prices, it's obvious why.


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## NS: Nikon Shooter

-

Why did I believe the word has gotten crazy some 20 years AGO?


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## Jeff15

Its not too bad for me, last year we changed to a Hybrid vehicle..


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## smoke665

Jeff15 said:


> Its not too bad for me, last year we changed to a Hybrid vehicle..



You must live in a flat metropolitan area. My good friend and neighbor bought his wife a hybrid a couple years ago, but we live in a rural mountainous area. He traded it a short time later because there was no advantage to it.


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## Jeff15

I must say that we do live in a fairly flat area but last year I drove the the Welsh coast involving some very mountainous roads. We managed to get 70 mpg which I thought was amazing....


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## snowbear

Slinky is averaging around 20 mpg; not too bad for something shaped like a brick.  The state is trying to suspend the state gas tax for 30 days.  MLW filled up the truck using our "points" we get for shopping at a particular supermarket, so less than $3.50 per gallon.


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## AlanKlein

One of my cars takes super (93 octane) so it costs an additional 50 cents or so here in NJ over regular octane.  Brings price up to around US$4.75 per gallon.  Add higher costs for film and photography is getting more expensive.


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## smoke665

Jeff15 said:


> I must say that we do live in a fairly flat area but last year I drove the the Welsh coast involving some very mountainous roads. We managed to get 70 mpg which I thought was amazing....


I considered a hybrid Ford Escape when I replaced the wife's car in 2020, but ultimately went with the 4cyl turbo. Can't complain about the pep and fuel mileage. On highway will run 25-27 depending on terrain/wind/speed. The truck is a beast (440hp, 890ftlbs of torque), I regularly tow anywhere from 5-18 thousand pounds. That beast unfortunately comes with a hunger for diesel.


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## webestang64

$3.96 filling up the 99 Pony here in St. Lou.

I don't mind. I like to drive, it's why I own 4 automobiles.


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## TJMcG

smoke665 said:


> You must live in a flat metropolitan area. My good friend and neighbor bought his wife a hybrid a couple years ago, but we live in a rural mountainous area. He traded it a short time later because there was no advantage to it.


We live in a rural mountainous area, and bought a Prius in 2016. 58 to 65 mpg as opposed to Silverado 2500 at 9-11. I'd call that advantage Prius.


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## terry_g

My CRV gets good mileage my GMC Sierra is a bit more expensive to run. 
But with the price of gas my KLR650 will get a lot more use this summer.
At better than 56 miles per gallon around town plus the fun factor.


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## AlanKlein

TJMcG said:


> We live in a rural mountainous area, and bought a Prius in 2016. 58 to 65 mpg as opposed to Silverado 2500 at 9-11. I'd call that advantage Prius.


Well, unless you need the carrying or towing capacity of the Silverado.


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## AlanKlein

terry_g said:


> My CRV gets good mileage my GMC Sierra is a bit more expensive to run.
> But with the price of gas my KLR650 will get a lot more use this summer.
> At better than 56 miles per gallon around town* plus the fun factor.*


Until it rains.


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## smoke665

TJMcG said:


> We live in a rural mountainous area, and bought a Prius in 2016. 58 to 65 mpg as opposed to Silverado 2500 at 9-11. I'd call that advantage Prius.



The problem with advantages are the disadvantages, they all come with a price. The materials used in the EV batteries come from less than environmentally friendly mining,, and the disposal of the old ones is a building time bomb of hazardous waste. While Toyota is claiming a lifespan of 12 yrs on the batterry, I've heard real life users getting significantly less "actual" use. As the batterry ages it provides less juice, requiring the gas engine to work more, and the cost of batterry replacement becomes more than the value of the car. Unlike your old Silverado, I doubt you'll see many Prius with 200k+ miles still going.

Don't get me wrong, I think the hybrid solution is a whole lot better one than the 100% EV with all its baggage, but it still has a ways to go. We are not European countries where you can drive from one country to another in the time it takes us to drive across one state. The EV with its 200-300 mile range and extended recharging times, is a joke for someone who would think nothing of driving 600 miles in a day, or towing/hauling more than a bag of groceries.

@AlanKlein I rode and even raced motorcross in my younger days. At 62 I was determined I was getting a Harley, but the DW was fighting me on it tooth and nail. One bright Sunday morning I was toned out on a motorcycle wreck. I was first on the scene to find a man exactly my age, had laid his Harley over to avoid a car that pulled out in front of him. In the process he'd slid a couple of hundred feet down the asphalt. His helmet had protected his head but the rest of him was one big mess of road rash. 10 years later, I still don't have the Harley........but my skin is intact. LOL


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## AlanKlein

smoke665 said:


> The problem with advantages are the disadvantages, they all come with a price. The materials used in the EV batteries come from less than environmentally friendly mining,, and the disposal of the old ones is a building time bomb of hazardous waste. While Toyota is claiming a lifespan of 12 yrs on the batterry, I've heard real life users getting significantly less "actual" use. As the batterry ages it provides less juice, requiring the gas engine to work more, and the cost of batterry replacement becomes more than the value of the car. Unlike your old Silverado, I doubt you'll see many Prius with 200k+ miles still going.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think the hybrid solution is a whole lot better one than the 100% EV with all its baggage, but it still has a ways to go. We are not European countries where you can drive from one country to another in the time it takes us to drive across one state. The EV with its 200-300 mile range and extended recharging times, is a joke for someone who would think nothing of driving 600 miles in a day, or towing/hauling more than a bag of groceries.


The price for Ev isn't also just the price.  You get less in features with an Ev for a comparably priced gasoline-powered car.  The extra money for the batteries means less features like leather seats, better sound systems, tires,  etc. that you would get with the gas car at the same purchase price. When I look at a $35,000 Tesla, they look like a Toyota Carolla at half the cost to buy.  So while you're saving on gas expenses, you're paying more initially for a less loaded auto.  And that's not even considering the rebate you get that other taxpayers are paying for.


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## TJMcG

smoke665 said:


> The problem with advantages are the disadvantages, they all come with a price.


Everything comes with a price. The question is: Which is the better value?


smoke665 said:


> The materials used in the EV batteries come from less than environmentally friendly mining,, and the disposal of the old ones is a building time bomb of hazardous waste.


Fracking, where a great deal of our oil in the U.S. comes from, is no less unfriendly. Nuclear plants and waste may be the most hazardous there is, but there are those still touting nuclear as the best way to produce power.


smoke665 said:


> While Toyota is claiming a lifespan of 12 yrs on the batterry, I've heard real life users getting significantly less "actual" use. As the batterry ages it provides less juice, requiring the gas engine to work more, and the cost of batterry replacement becomes more than the value of the car. Unlike your old Silverado, I doubt you'll see many Prius with 200k+ miles still going.


I have a niece who had battery failure in her Prius at about 225K. Toyota doesn't recommend it of course, but you can replace bad cells as they fail, as opposed to the whole thing. I have never personally driven any car that many miles, but if you drive a lot more than we do, I imagine that you would expect failure sooner. As for the replacement cost  being more than the value of the car, I guess that depends on what a replacement car would cost and what the condition of the rest of the car is. We drove an '89 Honda Civic for 27 years and it was in pretty bad shape, but still had less than 200,000 miles.


smoke665 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think the hybrid solution is a whole lot better one than the 100% EV with all its baggage, but it still has a ways to go. We are not European countries where you can drive from one country to another in the time it takes us to drive across one state. The EV with its 200-300 mile range and extended recharging times, is a joke for someone who would think nothing of driving 600 miles in a day, or towing/hauling more than a bag of groceries.


That's why we have trucks. The Prius won't do everything we need to do at this point, and why we have a Prius instead of an EV is because of the range. But this is what there is now, and at my age, this is most likely what I will have until I'm gone. Rest assured however, that some day there will be no more gasoline vehicles outside of museums. Fighting to keep antiquated systems going instead of putting everything we have into better technology is a losing battle, just as opposing the original cars in favor of horses was destined to fail.


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## TJMcG

AlanKlein said:


> Well, unless you need the carrying or towing capacity of the Silverado.


Which we sometimes do, and that is why we have it. It doesn't have to be our daily driver, however, since trips to the store or day trips to the Grand Canyon don't don't require 400 horsepower. Once, when car shopping in our Honda Civic, the salesman laughed and pointed to the trailer hitch. He had never seen a Civic with a trailer hitch. I installed that to pull a small utility trailer to the dump when necessary and it worked just fine, but not for a fifth wheel RV...


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## AlanKlein

TJMcG said:


> Everything comes with a price. The question is: Which is the better value?
> 
> Fracking, where a great deal of our oil in the U.S. comes from, is no less unfriendly. Nuclear plants and waste may be the most hazardous there is, but there are those still touting nuclear as the best way to produce power.
> 
> I have a niece who had battery failure in her Prius at about 225K. Toyota doesn't recommend it of course, but you can replace bad cells as they fail, as opposed to the whole thing. I have never personally driven any car that many miles, but if you drive a lot more than we do, I imagine that you would expect failure sooner. As for the replacement cost  being more than the value of the car, I guess that depends on what a replacement car would cost and what the condition of the rest of the car is. We drove an '89 Honda Civic for 27 years and it was in pretty bad shape, but still had less than 200,000 miles.
> 
> That's why we have trucks. The Prius won't do everything we need to do at this point, and why we have a Prius instead of an EV is because of the range. But this is what there is now, and at my age, this is most likely what I will have until I'm gone. Rest assured however, that some day there will be no more gasoline vehicles outside of museums. Fighting to keep antiquated systems going instead of putting everything we have into better technology is a losing battle, just as opposing the original cars in favor of horses was destined to fail.


Yes but back then the free market and private investment determined our movement into automobiles from horses.  Today, governments decide using taxpayer money.


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## TJMcG

AlanKlein said:


> Yes but back then the free market and private investment determined our movement into automobiles from horses.  Today, governments decide using taxpayer money.


Yeah, I won't be getting  into that debate...


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## webestang64




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## smoke665

TJMcG said:


> Everything comes with a price. The question is: Which is the better value?



I think I mentioned we gave serious consideration to the hybrid version when we replaced her car. For us the better value was NOT the hybrid.



TJMcG said:


> have a niece who had battery failure in her Prius at about 225K. T



I also know an older fellow who drove a Prius as his daily commuter, who also racked up 200k +, with no battery change. His comment (Not mine), was as the car aged, the fuel mileage decreased, as the battery contributed less and less.



TJMcG said:


> Fighting to keep antiquated systems going instead of putting everything we have into better technology is a losing battle, just as opposing the original cars in favor of horses was destined to fail.



Yes but will your Prius come when you call it, or nuzzle you because they're happy to see you.🤣 All things change, but sometimes change just for the sake of change isn't the best option. I have a 1987 Suzuki Samurai, that we bought new, probably has over 200k on, it's so fun to drive that we couldn't get rid of it. It still gets 25 mpg on the highway, so why 35 years later are the current 4cyl gasoline engines not getting  3x's better all on their own?


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## ac12

The other day, I saw the price at a Chevron station, all three grades were over $6 a gallon    
Guess I'm goina be driving less, and staying home more.


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## reyshm

jeffashman said:


> Almost 90% of the People where I work want to continue working from home. With these fuel prices, it's obvious why.


Precisely!


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## cdd29

a horse is the only way to go. wait.,.. they need fed and poop. never mind.


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## petrochemist

AlanKlein said:


> One of my cars takes super (93 octane) so it costs an additional 50 cents or so here in NJ over regular octane.  Brings price up to around US$4.75 per gallon.  Add higher costs for film and photography is getting more expensive.


Doesn't sound very super.
Normal unleaded in Europe is 95 octane. 
The racing fuel I test for work is 101 octane and sold last year for a little over £3 a litre...

Normal diesel here is now around £7.7 a gallon, that's currently $10!


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## smoke665

cdd29 said:


> a horse is the only way to go. wait.,.. they need fed and poop. never mind.



I can raise my own feed, and the byproducts........best fertilizer there is.

@petrochemist "Normal diesel here is now around £7.7 a gallon, that's currently $10!"........that's crazy. At that rate I'd definitely be squeezing my own bio.


As a side note: my first year of college 1968, gas was $.25/gal at the ripoff places on the interstate $.199 -.22 At the local stations, and they pumped it, cleaned your windshield, checked your oil, and few even checked your air pressures.


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## RacePhoto

Personally, I'd prefer a Hybrid station wagon as my choice. I'm sure someone like Subaru makes one, that I can't possibly afford.

I have no interest in something that needs a $20,000 battery pack, like a Tesla. If I had the money, like some people do, I could pick what I wanted and needed. 

That means I'd drive a little "crapwagon" most of the time and have a pickup for times when I needed something for towing, moving, home construction Etc.

Until then I'm in between and have a gasoline minivan. 









						Tesla owner blows up his Model S with dynamite over $22,000 battery replacement
					

A Tesla Model S owner in Finland decided to blow up his electric car with dynamite after it needed a battery replacement, which Tesla said was going to cost $22,000. There’s not a lot of information about how much an electric car, or especially Tesla vehicle, battery replacement costs. It’s a...




					electrek.co
				




There's someone with enough money to buy a Tesla and then when he was unhappy, pay a bunch to blow it up in protest.

Here's a question for the advocates of electric cars. How do I drive from where I live, to visit relatives that lives 600 miles away? For that matter how do I make a 300 mile vacation trip? Drive, stop and charge, drive, stop and charge?

*Where do you get that electricity for all the electric cars, and how is it produced?*


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## AlanKlein

petrochemist said:


> Doesn't sound very super.
> Normal unleaded in Europe is 95 octane.
> The racing fuel I test for work is 101 octane and sold last year for a little over £3 a litre...
> 
> Normal diesel here is now around £7.7 a gallon, that's currently $10!


I Googled it.  Apparently, octane is figured differently:

"In Europe, the octane rating on the pump is simply the RON figure. America, by contrast, uses the average of the RON and the MON figures, called the AKI (anti-knock index). Thus, 97 octane “super unleaded” in Britain is roughly equivalent to 91 octane premium in the United States"

Here's a more detailed explanation: American vs European fuels – Octane rating – eTuners


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## AlanKlein

RacePhoto said:


> Personally, I'd prefer a Hybrid station wagon as my choice. I'm sure someone like Subaru makes one, that I can't possibly afford.
> 
> I have no interest in something that needs a $20,000 battery pack, like a Tesla. If I had the money, like some people do, I could pick what I wanted and needed.
> 
> That means I'd drive a little "crapwagon" most of the time and have a pickup for times when I needed something for towing, moving, home construction Etc.
> 
> Until then I'm in between and have a gasoline minivan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla owner blows up his Model S with dynamite over $22,000 battery replacement
> 
> 
> A Tesla Model S owner in Finland decided to blow up his electric car with dynamite after it needed a battery replacement, which Tesla said was going to cost $22,000. There’s not a lot of information about how much an electric car, or especially Tesla vehicle, battery replacement costs. It’s a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's someone with enough money to buy a Tesla and then when he was unhappy, pay a bunch to blow it up in protest.
> 
> Here's a question for the advocates of electric cars. How do I drive from where I live, to visit relatives that lives 600 miles away? For that matter how do I make a 300 mile vacation trip? Drive, stop and charge, drive, stop and charge?
> 
> *Where do you get that electricity for all the electric cars, and how is it produced?*


I don't think we here in America are ready for EVs except for certain people and occasions.  There are not enough charging stations and it takes too long to charge.  Also, the range is too limited.  It's OK for driving around where you live and if you have a home where you can charge it overnight.  But it doesn't;t seem good if that's the only car you have and go far on occasions.  Then you need a gas car as your first car and have a second EV car for local driving.  

It's also not right that other people who make less have to subsidize richer people with tax subsidies so they can buy these cars cheaper.   I'd like to get a tax subsidy on a Leica.


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## Rickbb

Actually we do get a very big tax subsidy on gas, much more than the "green" energy sector gets. 

Every well drilled is paid for mostly by tax subsidies to the oil company. Any well drilled on public land is given huge discount on the lease, the same lease on private land would be $100's more than public land lease. We the people put in the roads and utilities to the wells on public land, free of charge, usually in the middle of what used to be a pristine wilderness. 

Several think tanks estimate that if the oil industry were left to the whims of the "free market" totally, we would be paying close to $10 a gallon for gas. 

For example, Exxon, one of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world, gets about $35 billon dollars a year in our taxes.


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## smoke665

@RickB those are just drops in the bucket. Ever wonder why the price at the pump shoots up the day the price of crude goes up???? The gas you put in your car was refined days/weeks ago, from crude that was bought and paid for months ago. That's because the Oil & Gas industry in the US is allowed to use LIFO for inventory cost accounting, a practice that is prohibited in other parts of the world under the International Financial Reporting Standards, because of the potential distortions it may have on a company's profitability and financial statements. For example, LIFO can understate a company's earnings for the purposes of keeping taxable income low. Sound familiar.........


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## AlanKlein

Rickbb said:


> Actually we do get a very big tax subsidy on gas, much more than the "green" energy sector gets.
> 
> Every well drilled is paid for mostly by tax subsidies to the oil company. Any well drilled on public land is given huge discount on the lease, the same lease on private land would be $100's more than public land lease. We the people put in the roads and utilities to the wells on public land, free of charge, usually in the middle of what used to be a pristine wilderness.
> 
> Several think tanks estimate that if the oil industry were left to the whims of the "free market" totally, we would be paying close to $10 a gallon for gas.
> 
> For example, Exxon, one of the biggest and most profitable companies in the world, gets about $35 billon dollars a year in our taxes.


I was talking about my neighbor getting an EV on my dime.  How's that fair?


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## AlanKlein

smoke665 said:


> @RickB those are just drops in the bucket. Ever wonder why the price at the pump shoots up the day the price of crude goes up???? The gas you put in your car was refined days/weeks ago, from crude that was bought and paid for months ago. That's because the Oil & Gas industry in the US is allowed to use LIFO for inventory cost accounting, a practice that is prohibited in other parts of the world under the International Financial Reporting Standards, because of the potential distortions it may have on a company's profitability and financial statements. For example, LIFO can understate a company's earnings for the purposes of keeping taxable income low. Sound familiar.........


We also have accrual methods of accounting vs. cash which change how much a corporation earns and when.  I'm not sure the reason for LIFO or accrual.  But they've been on the books a long time.


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## smoke665

AlanKlein said:


> was talking about my neighbor getting an EV on my dime. How's that fair?



Not to upset you more, but federal, state, county and local tax on gas and diesel pay for the construction and upkeep of roads. Since they don't buy either EVs travel for free down the highways and byways paid for by those nasty old combustion engines. Is this a great country or what!!!!!😁


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## AlanKlein

smoke665 said:


> Not to upset you more, but federal, state, county and local tax on gas and diesel pay for the construction and upkeep of roads. Since they don't buy either EVs travel for free down the highways and byways paid for by those nasty old combustion engines. Is this a great country or what!!!!!😁


You're right.  I didn't think of that. Freeloaders. On top of that, my slice of pizza just went up fifty cents.


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## ac12

A problem with EV is some/many work places only have a limited number of charging stations.
So it can be a race to the office, to get to those few charging stations first.

And as was said, in parts of the US where things are FAR apart, with no charging station in between, your EV may not have the range to reach your destination, before the battery goes flat, and you are stranded.     The hybrids will at least switch to the gas engine, to get you there.
I think Tesla had to install a charging station between SF and LA, so the Teslas could make the trip.  So you had a long lunch, while your Tesla charged up for the next half of the trip.  And if all the charging stations are occupied, you have to WAIT till one of them leaves, to charge your Tesla.  So you have a longer lunch, and got to your destination later.

Several years ago, I talked to one guy who test drove a few EVs and hybrids, not a Tesla.
He drove one up a hill, and it almost did not make it.   That car was scratched from the list.
That was several years ago.  Hopefully they are better now.
But that raises a point.  If you drive on hills a lot, you better test drive the EV/hybrid on hills BEFORE you buy it.


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## smoke665

ac12 said:


> A problem with EV is some/many work places only have a limited number of charging stations.



Here in our area the metro area has a population of close to 70k, not a big city, but not a small town either. There's one Tesla station and two other public stations, one of which isn't working, and one at a dealership that's only open weekdays during business hours. Compare that to the 20 or so gas stations at the interstat exits and probably a couple hundred scattered around the metro area.


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## smoke665

AlanKlein said:


> We also have accrual methods of accounting vs. cash which change how much a corporation earns and when. I'm not sure the reason for LIFO or accrual. But they've been on the books a long time.







__





						Big Oil's Accounting Methods Fuel Criticism - WSJ
					

LIFO Leaves the Likes of Exxon




					www.wsj.com


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## AlanKlein

smoke665 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Oil's Accounting Methods Fuel Criticism - WSJ
> 
> 
> LIFO Leaves the Likes of Exxon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


Business taxes applied to companies is different than the government paying an individual for the person's purchase of a family car.  Especially well-to-do people who are buying expensive EV's worth $90,000.    The new Ford F150 electric will start at $51,000 which get incentives vs. a gas-powered version that starts at $30,000 and does not get incentives.  It just nuts that taxpayers are subsidizing richer people.  I'd like to get a subsidy for a Nikon Z9.  A couple of thousand would be nice.


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## Hardus Nameous

All these vehicles cost more than I paid for my first house.
I'm all for an electric vehicle to get around town, but why does 90 grand for a Tesla make sense when I could do the same thing with a golf cart?  The golf cart is much easier to charge and cheaper on every way too.
I live in the largest city in the county and we don't have any charging stations for Teslas; there might be one in Wichita though.
I'm having a hard enough time keeping my 84 Honda scooter going.  At 70 mpg it's perfect to run around town, as long as you don't need to haul anything or it's raining etc.
Where are my scooter subsidies?  Someone buy me some parts!
That's a total joke obviously, as film and printing subsidies are more important.


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## smoke665

Hardus Nameous said:


> I'm all for an electric vehicle to get around town, but why does 90 grand for a Tesla make sense when I could do the same thing with a golf cart? The golf cart is much easier to charge and cheaper on every way too.


 Visit some of the senior communities in FL, you'll find them doing just that. Not sure about cheaper though, as some of the custom jobs get a little pricey.


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## Jeff15

Very nice looking vehicle.....


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## smoke665

Jeff15 said:


> Very nice looking vehicle.....



I've seen everything from sports cars, antique cars, jeeps, trucks. Whatever you can imagine you'll see in custom carts. The Villages in FL is a huge residential community that encourages the residents to use golf carts. There's specific traffic lanes and parking at the stores, for carts.


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