# beginner photographer



## swmocity (May 3, 2008)

im new to the site also..so summer times is coming up and i get bored easily...so i think i wonna do some photography  for da hell of it or even make a little extra cash off of it. i have been in the photography  gield for like two years now..have never purchased a SLR but i use them pretty much everyday..whats a good beginner SLR...i was thinking the nikon d40 or the cannon rebel xt


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## Ejazzle (May 3, 2008)

D40 is a really an all around good camera. I've used it multiple times and like the size and how crisp each and every pictures is


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## swmocity (May 3, 2008)

Ejazzle said:


> D40 is a really an all around good camera. I've used it multiple times and like the size and how crisp each and every pictures is


so its out beats da rebel even though its a 6..and not a 8 mp..i konw mp is da only thing yo look for but...just askin?..u have the d40?..post pics


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## nicfargo (May 3, 2008)

I've heard that the D40 has a big issue in that it can't auto focus on certain lenses (older lenses if I remember right).  There was a huge thread about it a month ago or so.  I've heard that if you can, jump to the D50.  

The rebel is a decent camera, but I honestly hate how it feels.  I would never have chosen Canon if I first picked up a rebel (30D was my first DSLR).  

Check out Pentax, decent stuff there from what I hear.


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## swmocity (May 3, 2008)

hmm interesting?


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## Overread (May 4, 2008)

It should be noted that the Rebel is made for smaller hands than most other DSLRs and people with big hands tend to hate it  but best thing is to try it out in a store and see how it feels.
Also (forgive me if I get names wrong becaue they change for USA from UK names) but the canon rebel xt is a still a very capable camera - but there are 2 updated versions of it - the xti and the xsi
From what I have read the xti is considered a good upgrade whilst the xsi although having even more pixels than the previous versions, is starting to show weakness in that its got more pixels, but still loaded on the same sensor set-up. It also has a lower number of frames per second than the others as a result of the increase in pixels and thus in file size.
However since its realease prices of the xti have fallen and I would consider the xti to be a good (canon) starting camera.

Also at this price range and with unless you have some specific lenses or lens types that you are after (the canon 100-400mm USM L IS is often a reason many choose canon as nikon have no equivalent lens) then any DSLR is going to work for you. Saying that you have experience with SLRs I would say the best line is to look at the lenses for each of the brands and see if one brand offers lenes more suited to your needs and budget (look both short term and long term at this) as whilst there are differences in camera bodies they are still very similar - its the lenses where the real differences lie


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## That One Guy (May 4, 2008)

I have large hands and have no problem at all with the XT.

I have owned this camera for almost 2yrs and have been very happy with it. I live by the old saying "buy a cheap body and put your money in the glass".
I have paired the XT with an L series lens and I am very pleased with the results and so are my clients.

I agree that you should go to a store and see how a Canon or a Nikon fits your hand. I don't recommend one system over the other. They are both good systems. 

Good luck


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## JIP (May 4, 2008)

It should also be noted that the original post of this thread is an insult to alot of dedicated professional photograpers full or part time.


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## swmocity (May 4, 2008)

well i work at a photolab so i have played with both of these cameras alot...i tested them out again today..im leaining toward the rebel alot...pictures seem to come out alot better than the d40s


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## raider (May 4, 2008)

I'm glad someone said this.

"It should also be noted that the original post of this thread is an insult to alot of dedicated professional photograpers full or part time. "

hey - i have a camera now, let's make some money by undercutting the professionals and fooling unsuspecting customers making them realize that they really don't need a "professional" photographer.  there goes the industry.  now everyone thinks that the  photography business is run out of mother's basements with clipart on a business card that's been cut with scissors. 

starting a business based on the fact that you have a camera is like opening a restaurant because you bought a microwave.

there's a new studio opening every week around here:  

mary's photography
jill's photography
i have kids photography
need extra money photography
just bought this cam photography


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## Overread (May 4, 2008)

Ahem - Whilst the opening post (and subsequent ones) are an affront to the skills of the written word I don't think we should derail this into a debate (rant) about the ease of getting into the photograhpy professional market (by pro I mean by making an income out of a skill/hobby/interest). Something for another thread I feel.
As for the thread starter - might help to write a little more formally and correctly - helps people to understand you better, makes you look more serious about what you are talking about and also allows people who's first language might not be english to understand your post better


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## swmocity (May 4, 2008)

JIP said:


> It should also be noted that the original post of this thread is an insult to alot of dedicated professional photograpers full or part time.


how is it an insult?.. i am also dedicated to photography..im in college majoring in media,television,radio, and minor photography...i know being a photographer is not a easy job....i have always just looked at it as a hobby....but i dont see why a hobby cant turn into a career, or even a side job


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## That One Guy (May 5, 2008)

swmocity said:


> how is it an insult?.. i am also dedicated to photography..im in college majoring in media,television,radio, and minor photography...i know being a photographer is not a easy job....i have always just looked at it as a hobby....but i dont see why a hobby cant turn into a career, or even a side job



a hobby can turn into something bigger and better. mine did.


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## swmocity (May 5, 2008)

That One Guy said:


> a hobby can turn into something bigger and better. mine did.


yes.thats exactly what im saying...dont know why everyone is jumping on me about it.what kind of camera do u have?


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## Sarah23 (May 5, 2008)

I think some people took offense because you came in here, and acted like since you have worked in a photo lab and want to buy a camera, that you automatically  assumed you could just start charging and make some money at it. Just like that. If it was that easy, no one would take the time to learn the art, and to study and become a REAL professional. Not just someone who is bored and thinks that they can take some snapshots and charge someone for it!

And...referring to your original post... "da" is not a word unless you are 1 and learning to say daddy. Please use normal English and make yourself look SOMEWHAT serious.


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## swmocity (May 5, 2008)

Sarah23 said:


> I think some people took offense because you came in here, and acted like since you have worked in a photo lab and want to buy a camera, that you automatically assumed you could just start charging and make some money at it. Just like that. If it was that easy, no one would take the time to learn the art, and to study and become a REAL professional. Not just someone who is bored and thinks that they can take some snapshots and charge someone for it!
> 
> And...referring to your original post... "da" is not a word unless you are 1 and learning to say daddy. Please use normal English and make yourself look SOMEWHAT serious.


well people got the wrong idea of what i was sayin...i am also minoring in photography also and no its not easy at all..its alot of things i know, but alot that i dont..thats why i came on here to hopefully learn more and see pictures that others have taken


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## raider (May 6, 2008)

swmocity said:


> well people got the wrong idea of what i was sayin...i am also minoring in photography also and no its not easy at all..its alot of things i know, but alot that i dont..thats why i came on here to hopefully learn more and see pictures that others have taken



sounds good to me.  however too many times i see people with seemingly legitimate businesses here and their galleries aren't very impressive - just downright bad even.  that gets to me.  what gets me more is when people are just too nice to say that their stuff isn't up to par - it gets praised just to provide encouragement.  save that stuff for the non-pro area.  blurry not done the right way is just blurry.


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## swmocity (May 6, 2008)

raider said:


> sounds good to me. however too many times i see people with seemingly legitimate businesses here and their galleries aren't very impressive - just downright bad even. that gets to me. what gets me more is when people are just too nice to say that their stuff isn't up to par - it gets praised just to provide encouragement. save that stuff for the non-pro area. blurry not done the right way is just blurry.


yes. i understand what you are saying


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## caspertodd (May 6, 2008)

I currently use the Rebel Xt and love it.  I have fairly big hands, and it feels fine to me.  It was hard to beat the price of the camera.  I've never used another camera, so it would be impossible for me to say whether I would like another better, but for right now the Xt is perfect for me.


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## swmocity (May 6, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> I currently use the Rebel Xt and love it. I have fairly big hands, and it feels fine to me. It was hard to beat the price of the camera. I've never used another camera, so it would be impossible for me to say whether I would like another better, but for right now the Xt is perfect for me.


good reviews..imma get mines today. what lens do u have?


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## swmocity (May 6, 2008)

i am thinking about getting this lens also






http://www.ritzcamera.com/product/541163630.htm?bct=t13079503%3Bcilenses-for-digital-cameras%3Bcislr-lens%3Bcilenses-for-canon


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## Sarah23 (May 6, 2008)

I had that lens and returned it. Its pretty slow. You get what you pay for.


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## Rachelsne (May 6, 2008)

I dont make money from photography-yet i have a long long way to go, I purchased the canon 30d, its a nice sturdy camera, a little on the heavy side for me but Im getting used to it.

When I was looking to purchased a camera I asked my self a few questions.

What do I want to take pictures of?
 People and animals and local sights
Is this just a hobby?
 One day I would like to get in to the portrait business, but I know this will take time, practice and lots of money
What can I afford?
I didnt want to spend over $1200 lenses and camera included.

From that I decided with the 30d, I liked what other people had archived with the camera, I felt if I went with a rebel I would have wanted to upgrade, and realistically I wouldn't be able to afford to upgrade for a long time! After reading many posts I realized that photography is an addiction and it is easy to spend lots of money so set your self a limit and stick to it.

I went against recommendations of a couple of forums and did not get the 40d, this is because the differences wouldn't affect my photography in any major way. I also only opted for 2 lenses the 50mm 1.8 (nifty fifty) and a sigma telephoto/macro. these lenses suit my needs fine while I learn, but when I want to start charging for my work I will upgrade the 50mm 1.8 to the 50mm 1.4 

The next couple of purchases I am going to be making are on a wide angle lens, for when I go to tale pictures with my hubby at car shows, but more importantly Ill be getting a program that will calibrate my monitor so I can make sure that I a,m getting my colors and bright/darks correct.

(I dont know about Nikon hence no mention of them)

How were you thinking about making money from pics? weddings, stock? portraits, sports? this should influence you on the camera you choose.


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## Rachelsne (May 6, 2008)

swmocity said:


> i am thinking about getting this lens also
> 
> 
> http://www.ritzcamera.com/product/5...digital-cameras;cislr-lens;cilenses-for-canon





I bought this they are available for Nikon too, im happy with it, but it depends what your doing with it I guess.

Soop around try adorama.com and b and h consider buying used too.


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## D-50 (May 6, 2008)

The rebel xti is a toy camera


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## Overread (May 6, 2008)

Rachelsne said:


> I bought this they are available for Nikon too, im happy with it, but it depends what your doing with it I guess.
> 
> Soop around try adorama.com and b and h consider buying used too.


 
Make sure if you go after this lens that you do get the APO DG version with the red ring on the lens and not the DG only version. The APO is the better quality of the two by far and the price difference is not that huge - it worth that little extra



D-50 said:


> The rebel xti is a toy camera


 
Its all toys till your pro - then its tools 
(ps - its not what body you use its your lens and your skills )


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## D-50 (May 6, 2008)

Yeah I know that glass is what makes a camera but I will forever stand by my feeling thatthe Rebel XTi is atoy. I held one for about five minutes and took a photo for a person in the rain forrest.  I could not believe that was the camera that people debate over, the thing feels all plastic and disappears in the hand of anyone over the age of 5.  If you put a 200mm o that camera I would just laugh.


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## Overread (May 6, 2008)

First shot and some others 350D (XT)
http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/galleries/fauna-geese_and_ducks_of_racconigi.htm

First shot only 350D (XT)
http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/galleries1200/wildlife.htm

Good things come in small packages -


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## Rachelsne (May 6, 2008)

Overread said:


> Make sure if you go after this lens that you do get the APO DG version with the red ring on the lens and not the DG only version. The APO is the better quality of the two by far and the price difference is not that huge - it worth that little extra



yes, thats what I did, paid a little extra and got the APO.


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## D-50 (May 6, 2008)

Im not saying it takes poor quality photos in factImsure the noise is better than most Nikons, Im just saying its tiny. I had no idea how small the camera was until I held it.  It had a 50mm primeon it and it made the 50mm look huge.


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## RyanLilly (May 6, 2008)

I think the xt and D40 are about the same size, I thought I saw an advertisement  that the d40 was the smallest DSLR, but I could be wrong.


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

yay i got the xt yesterday...im going to go out in a bit to take pictures of a few things


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## caspertodd (May 7, 2008)

swmocity said:


> i am thinking about getting this lens also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That is the lens I have.  It is fine if there is a lot of light.  I am already looking at the 70-200mm f/4 L lens though.


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## caspertodd (May 7, 2008)

D-50 said:


> Yeah I know that glass is what makes a camera but I will forever stand by my feeling thatthe Rebel XTi is atoy.


 
Well, I'm very happy with my _toy_.


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Well, I'm very happy with my _toy_.


which mode do you use the most?


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## caspertodd (May 7, 2008)

swmocity said:


> which mode do you use the most?


 
It really depends on the situation.  I use Tv a lot because I am trying to stop motion with my dog running through the yard.  I use Av mode when taking "portraits".  I used 'P' mode a lot when I was learning about ISO, White Balance, AF modes, etc...  I'm definitely not the person you want to ask though since I am new to photography too.


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> It really depends on the situation. I use Tv a lot because I am trying to stop motion with my dog running through the yard. I use Av mode when taking "portraits". I used 'P' mode a lot when I was learning about ISO, White Balance, AF modes, etc... I'm definitely not the person you want to ask though since I am new to photography too.


o ok lol...im still learning how to use it also....harder than i thought it would be.. is the Av mode used for controlling the DOF..like if i wanted to make the backgroud blurry and the subject in focus..if done a few shots with the manual focus and have gotten the background blurry..was just wondering if their was another way to do it

and i just now found out you cant use the 4000 speed with the flash on 
its stops at 200 with the flash


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## caspertodd (May 7, 2008)

swmocity said:


> and i just now found out you cant use the 4000 speed with the flash on
> its stops at 200 with the flash


 
I think that is with all cameras. Not a limitation of only the Xt. And yes, Av mode is used for controling DOF. I would highly suggest this set of tutorials to help you with your camera so that you can really learn the settings:

http://www.usa.canon.com/content/rebelxt_tutorial/rebelxtlessons.htm

Also, the books that were recommended to me are :

Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson
The Digital Photography Book by Scott Kelby

I bought those from Amazon and should be getting them in on Friday.


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## Overread (May 7, 2008)

hmm another beginner with the XTi - we should make a club  - been shooting since christmas -- when I got the lens 

Anyway with books I have read Scott Kelby's and find that starting out it contains some good general advice, without confusing the reader with technical details - basic good place to start with.
Peterson's I have not read, but I hear it comes highly recomended.
Two more that I have heard about from others are:
Langford's Basic Photography: The guide for serious photographers
Langford's Adcanced Photography


as for my shooting, nearly all is in ap (apature priority) mode though I have done some in Tv when I want to ensure a fast shutter speed.


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> I think that is with all cameras. Not a limitation of only the Xt. And yes, Av mode is used for controling DOF. I would highly suggest this set of tutorials to help you with your camera so that you can really learn the settings:
> 
> http://www.usa.canon.com/content/rebelxt_tutorial/rebelxtlessons.htm
> 
> ...


thanks


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

Overread said:


> hmm another beginner with the XTi - we should make a club  - been shooting since christmas -- when I got the lens
> 
> Anyway with books I have read Scott Kelby's and find that starting out it contains some good general advice, without confusing the reader with technical details - basic good place to start with.
> Peterson's I have not read, but I hear it comes highly recomended.
> ...


post some of your pics


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## Overread (May 7, 2008)

hehe - follow the link in my sig to my blog. The later entries should load at a reasonable speed - the earlier ones will be slower - because I used larger shots - I am sloooowly getting round to editing them all -- just that darn compiler they use that throws all the text into different fonts at times.
The earlier shots are my first - after that there are one or two threads of mine in the nature section of this site


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## caspertodd (May 7, 2008)

Here is a shot I took with my Xt and the 300mm lens that you are thinking about getting (my first time out with the camera):


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## swmocity (May 7, 2008)

nice


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## swmocity (May 9, 2008)

so i am going to do my first shoot today with some local music artist/friends. any tips or advice?...its going to be outside..fairly sunny...im thinking of just using the program mode to control the metering, the lighting settings, and using the manual focus....its a free shoot just to get some experience and pratice


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## Overread (May 9, 2008)

hmm I would say your thinking along the right lines - though I would say take shots with manual by all means, but at this early stage you might find autofocus to be a good thing to try out. Unless you are using a tripod manual focus can take a while to get used to so you might end up with a lot of soft shots.
I would set your camera to multishot (unless the target is really not moving at all) and use the centre focusing element for most things. Things like landscapes I tend to use all the focusing points and let the camera choose at the moment


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## swmocity (May 9, 2008)

Overread said:


> hmm I would say your thinking along the right lines - though I would say take shots with manual by all means, but at this early stage you might find autofocus to be a good thing to try out. Unless you are using a tripod manual focus can take a while to get used to so you might end up with a lot of soft shots.
> I would set your camera to multishot (unless the target is really not moving at all) and use the centre focusing element for most things. Things like landscapes I tend to use all the focusing points and let the camera choose at the moment


no im not going to use a tripod.is it ok to use the auto focus while in program mode?..or should i just use the fully automatic mode....its kind of hard to determine what to use...i know its going to be outdoor..so no flash right?...but while im in program mode i have to set the ISO...should i leave the ISO at the lowest settings since the sun is providing most of the light?


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## Overread (May 9, 2008)

Its much more trial and error for me.
You have good light from the sun, but then again you have the wabble from you as you stand, so I would say ISO of 100 and 200 are out - you might get lucky, but I would not bet on it. Rather I would try 400 and 800 - with the camera and a little post processing that should not give you too much noise to worry about.

Auto focus can work in any mode on the camera - though clearly - say in evening or morning, when its darker it does not work as well.
Further though you say no flash outside, if you are close up to something and the sun is behind the target (so you are shooting into shadow) then use the flash to show up the detials, best place for the sun really is behind you, just off to one side, so that it lights up what you are shooting.

Also expect a low success rate - not saying you are bad by any means, but it takes time ot learn and practise. Mostly I like to shoot something as much as I can with different settings to see the effect of changing things. From there research and subject reading tell me why what I am doing is/is not working. Mostly I am happy if I get one good shot of everything I shoot if on a day shooting things like flowers, where I can spend as long as I can with the subject - with moving targets I am happy for any shot.
(ps this might be  view that those who learn't on film will counter, as they had to think before pressing the shutter button as it cost them each time.)


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## Village Idiot (May 9, 2008)

make sures u get da good pics

usin da pop up won work outside

u want to be usin da off camera flash like da pros

u should learn about lightin an da exposure so u konw wut u doin


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## swmocity (May 9, 2008)

Overread said:


> Its much more trial and error for me.
> You have good light from the sun, but then again you have the wabble from you as you stand, so I would say ISO of 100 and 200 are out - you might get lucky, but I would not bet on it. Rather I would try 400 and 800 - with the camera and a little post processing that should not give you too much noise to worry about.
> 
> Auto focus can work in any mode on the camera - though clearly - say in evening or morning, when its darker it does not work as well.
> ...


thanks for the advice..hopefully it all goes well


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## swmocity (May 9, 2008)

i suck lol..the first one i kept it on da program mode and used the manual focus..the sceond i used 4000 speed to try to "freeze" the water  guess i shouldve used the flash also...its to dark


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## swmocity (May 9, 2008)

i think ill stick to the automatic mode for now


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## PerrieBelle (May 12, 2008)

Good advice in this thread... I shall be taking a lot in myself


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## swmocity (May 14, 2008)

swmocity said:


> i am thinking about getting this lens also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
got this today


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## swmocity (May 14, 2008)

how do you blur out the background i cant seem to do it...i have used the AV mode to try and play with the settings but i cant seem to do it


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## Overread (May 14, 2008)

Generally using a large apature (that is low f number) will give you this effect, but it is also dependent on the distance from you to your subject and also the distance from your subject to the background you are trying to blurr. I suspect there is some maths that lets you work this out, but I don't know it,
All I know is that using the largest apature (lowest f number) that you can greatly helps the process


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## elsaspet (May 14, 2008)

swmocity said:


> im new to the site also..so summer times is coming up and i get bored easily...so i think i wonna do some photography for da hell of it or even make a little extra cash off of it. i have been in the photography gield for like two years now..have never purchased a SLR but i use them pretty much everyday..whats a good beginner SLR...i was thinking the nikon d40 or the cannon rebel xt


 

If you are bored, you don't need to be taking photos for cash.
And if you are in a guild, why are you just now purchasing an SLR?


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## elsaspet (May 14, 2008)

And why is everyone who is supposed to be a pro on this sub forum acting like this is a ok?  It's not.


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## Overread (May 14, 2008)

I think we started and ended this argument a page ago (I think).
Also - how can we control what people do or do not do with thier kit and understandings? That should not affect whether we help a person or not. (within the boundaries of reason here)


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## Tiberius47 (May 14, 2008)

swmocity said:


> im new to the site also..so summer times is coming up and i get bored easily...so i think i wonna do some photography  for da hell of it or even make a little extra cash off of it. i have been in the photography  gield for like two years now..have never purchased a SLR but i use them pretty much everyday..whats a good beginner SLR...i was thinking the nikon d40 or the cannon rebel xt





swmocity said:


> how do you blur out the background i cant seem to do it...i have used the AV mode to try and play with the settings but i cant seem to do it



No offense, but if you don't know how to get the blurry background in the camera, you aren't up to a standard where you'll be able to get a bit of money out of photography.  If you are really interested, get yourself a dSLR and learn how to use it.  To make money off photography, you really need to be able to use the camera like it's an extension of your body.


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## reg (Jun 6, 2008)

swmocity said:


> i suck lol..the first one i kept it on da program mode and used the manual focus..the sceond i used 4000 speed to try to "freeze" the water  guess i shouldve used the flash also...its to dark



da post is rite.... u has a point..... the pics does sucks..... and da sentunces like dis is real annoying..... it makes u looks like u has a mental problam or is on drugs or something......or cant keep a thought for more than 5 seconds......


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## jols (Jun 6, 2008)

raider said:


> I'm glad someone said this.
> 
> "It should also be noted that the original post of this thread is an insult to alot of dedicated professional photograpers full or part time. "
> 
> ...


 

never be afraid of competion


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## reg (Jun 6, 2008)

There's a difference between competition and some guy with a little money opening a store with no sitting fee and 5 dollar 8x10's that look like, well, you know where I'm going. They're *ruining *the profession!


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## jols (Jun 6, 2008)

there is nothing whatsoever wrong with my statement.

if hes crap he wont make any money do whats the problem


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## reg (Jun 6, 2008)

I wish that it were true, but you know as well as I do that the bargain bin photo studios (Wal-Mart Photo anyone?) are always packed. Then, they wonder why their non post-processed, poorly printed, poorly *TAKEN *photos don't look good.

Or even worse, they end up *liking *the pictures! That's not a bad thing, but when they're convincing everyone that "Oh, the Walmart studio is just as good... and they charge TWENTY DOLLARS LESS for an 8x10!!", it starts to take business away from the mid-priced segment.


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## jols (Jun 6, 2008)

but thats just business surely 


i wont be replying anymore to this cause i will only get into trouble


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## Rachelsne (Jun 6, 2008)

I want to comment on a few things here.

yes the whole gramma thing is annoying-get over it or dont read the post.

The original poster is new at photography, and may think its easier than it is, the fact that he/she has posted up examples when he/she know the pictures suck shows they want to learn.

Regarding those waterfall pics (bare in mind i am not too experienced, and learning also....

For now forget about manual focus, concentrate on learning the 'creative zones' learn how AV and TV affect your camera and also how using manual mode combining everything together. You can also shoot on P mode-review the settings directly after the picture and then use manual mode to recreat these settings, its cheating and the results may not be what you want, but it may be a good way to get used to changing things around on your camera.

learn how to shoot with out the flash, then how to use the flash to fill in shadows then how to take flash shots-if you do alot of flash photography buy an external flash (im saving for one) 

Is that water fountain lit up at night? or do you know one that is, go back to it and experiment at night too, see how using a slow shutter makes your water smooth (I prefer this) or buy a ND filter and do it in the day time, when using a slower shutter speed you will need a tripod. or atleast be resting the camera on a stationary surfice, also use a remote trigger or auto timer, this should iliminate camera shake from presing the trigger

I started with the canon S3is (point and shoot with manual settings) but now have the 30d. I am experimenting and what I have written above are two things that have helped me learn


Oh and I feel extreemly clumsy with my camera and feel like I take along time to get the camera to the settings I want, but I dont care, for now I dont have to be fast, take your time, enjoy the summer and your camera


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## Jon, The Elder (Jun 18, 2008)

Just got to believe there is a master troll at work here somewhere.


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## DHammer (Jun 18, 2008)

This is definitely a joke. The poster is hitting on every stereotype you can imagine about all the things that drive professionals crazy. And if even half the information he says is true he would have all the answers to all of his questions. Bottom line is he's yanking your chains and your coming along.


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## Corry (Jun 18, 2008)

And the purpose of bumping this thread was...?  


Move along, folks.


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