# Rangefinder question



## abhishekdg (Jul 26, 2012)

Well film is almost an alien part of photography to me until yesterday when I had the first ever chance to hold onto a leica M6 . Couldn't believe the feel of the camera.
It seems that even after 24 hrs I still long for the camera badly and it sadly makes my Nikon D90 look so very inferior. I mean its film not digital , manual focus , no viewing through the lens but still the feel of it alone was enough to sell all my digital stuffs and get a rangefinder.
The smooth focus of using the creamy summilux for 5 minutes has been haunting me even in dreams.
So still undecided, want to know your views on whether I should pull the trigger for a rangefinder. Ofcourse I would have to sell my digital stuffs as they no more appeal to me after using the leica for 5 mins. I don't know it may sound weird but i am only dreaming of it.
Also wanna know if there's a little less costly option to Leica . My highest budget is 1500 with the lens.

It may sound childish but need your views as to what's best for me. Will it be good for me as i am just a newbie in photography to go for a rangefinder or stick to digital and later move to rangefinders with experience..


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## Fred Berg (Jul 26, 2012)

Wow, it got you bad! 

Voigtländer do some very nice rangefinders for the sort of money we are talking about. Their own glass is very good but I think you can also use Leica/Zeiss lenses. Contax G models are also worth considering and they can also take Leica/Zeiss lenses.


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

ive just picked up an M4 they are wonderful cameras, have a look at the Voigtlander R2 and get the 40f1.4 or 50f1.1 fantastic lenses they blow Canon and Nikon out of the water


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## usayit (Jul 26, 2012)

* What focal length(s) is your preference?  Unlike SLRs, it matters.  You want to make sure that the viewfinder has the framelines to match.  Your preference will also determine the ideal viewfinder magnification.

* Meter or no meter?   Often my preference is a small light meter that sits on my hotshoe.  It allows me to look down at it and examine the exposure values without having to bring the camera eye-level.  

* You original post talks a lot about "feel" of the M6 and the summilux.  How important is that to you?  There are other options for rangefinders out there but not all have the same feel... some are actually quite advanced compared to the M6 (Hexar RF, Contax etc, Voigtlander)

* Have you shot with a rangefinder (other than hold it)?  In my experience, people either fall in love with it (like me) or hate it.   Its a rather large investment so perhaps you should try cheaper options (Canonet for example) just to try it out for size.   I'd hate for you to go off selling a bunch of perfectly good digital stuff to end up with something you don't like.


My first Leica was an M3.   I was able to find a "user" with a 50mm Summicron.   I shot with it for a year or so and saved up enough for a CLA @ Essex Camera Services Inc. - Home (local to me).  A similar combination "should" fit in your budget.  It was loads of fun and I still shoot Leica today.  When it came time to sell something, I sold my M6 to keep the M3.  It felt better.  Its not quite perfect for me... I have to admit.  In retrospect, I would have gone with the nearly identical M2 because it has the wider 35mm framelines.  No one was around to explain to me the importance of viewfinder framelines and magnification.  In the end, its still a joy to have.



If you are looking for alternatives, I highy recommend voigtlanders.  Here is a link to a chart at the US based dealer.  The chart has all of the voigtlander rangefinder models indicating important features like; Mechanical vs Electronic shutter, viewfinder Magnification, and famelines.  They are good functional rangefinders that can be had brand new... but not quite the quality nor the feel of a Leica.

http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtchart2.htm


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## SamSpade1941 (Jul 26, 2012)

abhishekdg said:


> Well film is almost an alien part of photography to me until yesterday when I had the first ever chance to hold onto a leica M6 . Couldn't believe the feel of the camera.
> It seems that even after 24 hrs I still long for the camera badly and it sadly makes my Nikon D90 look so very inferior. I mean its film not digital , manual focus , no viewing through the lens but still the feel of it alone was enough to sell all my digital stuffs and get a rangefinder.
> The smooth focus of using the creamy summilux for 5 minutes has been haunting me even in dreams.
> So still undecided, want to know your views on whether I should pull the trigger for a rangefinder. Ofcourse I would have to sell my digital stuffs as they no more appeal to me after using the leica for 5 mins. I don't know it may sound weird but i am only dreaming of it.
> ...



Welcome to something that will haunt you for as long as you will live for the rest of your days, for me it is a single stroke M3 with a 50mm f2 Summicron.  FWIW you can buy an M3 these days fairly reasonably, you can even get and M4p for not a ton of money. In fact the 50mm lens will cost about what the body will. Many including my will argue that the cost is so worth it, every single day I have to fight off the urge to not sell a hunting rifle and then call KEH and have them send me a Leica on the BBT.  Its that bad for me, it is really hard to shake that feeling once you handle and actually shoot some photos with one.  Its like a woman that came into your life touched your cheek lightly then left you standing there in the night. :hail:


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## timor (Jul 26, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> Wow, it got you bad!


Leica has this ability


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## slackercruster (Jul 26, 2012)

I have dslr, rangefinder and m43...they all have their purpose. 

Get some $$ together and buy a rangefinder.

But I'd rec the Fuji Pro or an oldy Epson RD1s. Film is dead pretty much. But if you want film, hate your digital gear, then sell it and do it.


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## Fred Berg (Jul 26, 2012)

slackercruster said:


> I have dslr, rangefinder and m43...they all have their purpose.
> 
> Get some $$ together and buy a rangefinder.
> 
> But I'd rec the Fuji Pro or an oldy Epson RD1s. Film is dead pretty much. But if you want film, hate your digital gear, then sell it and do it.



I don't understand why peole are convinced that film is dead.


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## timor (Jul 26, 2012)

One word: *PROPAGANDA*.
Propaganda spread by Nikon, Canon, Sony etc. etc. etc. 
A miracle of no need for film and processing for average bread eater, disregard for older technologies and awe of new. (Remember life with no cell phones ? How we wasted time then ?)


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## Ysarex (Jul 26, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> slackercruster said:
> 
> 
> > I have dslr, rangefinder and m43...they all have their purpose.
> ...



Film died December 30, 2010

Joe


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## Buckster (Jul 26, 2012)

Photography processes and equipment have been changing and evolving ever since the first image was recorded, and will continue to do so.  The new eventually replaces the old, and that's just the way it is.

These occasional  whine-fests over the good old days of film and how digital is so much worse and inferior and _*propaganda-driven*_ are just getting pathetic.

You can still shoot with 8x10 glass plates, if you want to.  And you can say it's really the best way to record images, if you want to.  You can lug them around with your big wooden view camera and 70 pounds of tripod and other gear on a donkey just like Ansel Adams did in Yosemite, if you want to.  And you can even say that any photographic technology that came after 8x10 glass plates is all just propaganda, conspiracy and marketing driven to force that new crap down our throats when 8x10 glass plates are still the best way to go, if you want to.  And it won't matter one bit, because the world keeps turning, changing and evolving, whether you like it or not.

Now turn off your computer and the internet, go listen to your 78 RPM records of Bing Crosby while your 17" black and white TV shows re-runs of Howdy Doody, load up some film, preferably in an antique camera, and smile, knowing all is right in YOUR world, even if the rest of the world has gone mad.  You don't even have to justify it to anyone.


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## abhishekdg (Jul 26, 2012)

You guys are just awesome.. With all your suggestions it seems that I should look into Voigtlander series of rangefinders.Well I have been photographing for only 3 months with my DSLR and not a single day have passed without taking a photo. However, here are my preferences as to what I enjoy shooting:-

1. I love to shoot Black and White..  Even a plain Black and White image without no composition moves me more than the best of the colourful landscapes. It has something that stops my eyes from wondering aimlessly in a picture and focus selectively. It basically brings a lot of joy and satisfaction to see a balck and white image rather than a colour. As a result, I have started to convert all the images I shoot into Black and White.. 

In 1 sentence - "Colours mingle.. They loose their identity  - Unlike B&W which captures souls"

2. I like to shoot landscapes and street scenes.Telephotos(Wild life and bird) are not my cup of tea. The lenses are pretty heavy and cannot afford even some of the prime telephotos from Nikon. 

Main objective - Landscapes with some human interactions

3. I like to be able to use wide lenses and anyday prefer primes over the zooms. I don't like zooming rather than zooming with my feet seems better to me.
Looking for 2 lenses - something wide enough like 20-24 mm for my landscapes and 50mm for standard focal lengths in 35mm.


4.Personally it may seem crazy but I would like to learn manual focus . I really do not like to use autofocus where the camera decides for me. I would really love to learn the art of manual focussing.

5. I dont know if I should get a light meter or a built in light meter in the rangefinder. But surely I want it to help me determine the exposure as I am pretty new to photography and cannot determine exposures from my own..

Please consider the above points and let me know your suggestions.

Lastly and most important to me - I just cant forget the feel of the Leica lenses.. Th esmooth buttery focussing ring and the simplicity of only a few buttons on the cameras. My digital Nikon D90 has so many buttons and options which I feel like so very confusing.. I dont use even half of those provided...


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## usayit (Jul 26, 2012)

@abhishekdg...

You and I are so very similar....     Right down to the focal length perferences.  I'm a a 24-50-90 shooter myself.   Sometimes I will shoot with just a 35-75.

I'm at work in a meeting, will try to reply later (unless someone responds before them).   For now, the toughest requirement to meet will be the 24mm lens..  Wasn't all that popular until recently and some of the lenses may be out of your price range.   As such, many cameras didn't have the 24mm framelines relying on a 24mm viewfinder attachment.   28mm might be a easier bet.


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

You could also look for an M4-2 the one that saved Leica they are cheaper


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## timor (Jul 26, 2012)

In my opinion rangefinder is a bit hard to use with ultrawide lenses. They require additional, external viewfinders to have the proper angle of view when composing the frame. Just a thought.


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## Ysarex (Jul 26, 2012)

abhishekdg said:


> snip...
> In 1 sentence - "Colours mingle.. They loose their identity  - Unlike B&W which captures souls"
> ...snip


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## timor (Jul 26, 2012)

Buckster said:


> You can still shoot with 8x10 glass plates..... it's really the best way to record images


Etc.etc.
I forgot to add: ridiculing film users. This kind of propaganda. You  just included yourself in it. And who the !@#$ has the right to  criticize me for my hobby ? In my experience many digital user feel they  do. Even on a film forum. Why ? Thanks to the right propaganda, as they think, they know  better.


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## bhop (Jul 26, 2012)

I had the same feeling when I held a Leica for the first time.  After using Canonets and Yashica Electro 35s for a while, I eventually got an M6.  Earlier Ms can be had for less money, but I wanted an internal meter.  With your budget, you can probably swing an M6 with a 3rd party lens, maybe some kind of screwmount lens with an adapter.  That's what I have, M6 with Canon 50mm f/1.4 screwmount.  I'm starting a shoebox savings plan for a Summilux 50 though.. I don't think the Leica lens-lust will go away until I get one, but they're soooo damned expensive.

I also shoot with a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron f/2.  I like this lens a lot.  Pretty sharp and build quality is nice too.

The Voigtlander bodies are supposedly pretty good alternatives, but honestly, it seems you won't be happy until you get a Leica.

Leica M6 - a set on Flickr



Buckster said:


> Photography processes and equipment have been changing and evolving ever since the first image was recorded, and will continue to do so.  The new eventually replaces the old, and ..blah, blah, blah.....justify it to anyone.



Cool story bro.


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## Buckster (Jul 26, 2012)

timor said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > You can still shoot with 8x10 glass plates..... it's really the best way to record images
> ...


I shoot both film and digital.  The difference is that I don't whine about nor disparage nor glorify either one.

So, now what?


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## bhop (Jul 26, 2012)

Buckster said:


> timor said:
> 
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> > Buckster said:
> ...



Your previous post made it seem like you were a film hater, but now that that's cleared up, I actually agree with you and shoot both and like both, although I do like film better for various reasons.


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## timor (Jul 26, 2012)

Buckster said:


> I shoot both film and digital.  The difference is that I don't whine about nor disparate nor glorify either one. So, now what?


Nothing, we can get mad at each other, but that is not my plan. I would love to cross Rocky Mountain with donkey carrying my stuff, that would be some adventure, but where I can get a donkey nowadays in Canada ?
With "propaganda" I just stated my displeasure with marketing strategies of camera makers. And off course I am not a stranger to digital, just digital is not my hobby.


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## compur (Jul 26, 2012)

I never go anywhere without my donkey.


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## abhishekdg (Jul 26, 2012)

Ok guys.. I think the topic is getting a little bit too hot. Its a humble topic I have raised as the feel of Leica was better than the Nikon D90 I was shooting. I never want to show Nikon down or say Digital is bad.. There are so many things I believe that digital can do which film cannot. I am personally want to try out rangefinders specially because of the feeling and specially because of the focusing type through the rangefinder. Nothing else..

Can we come back to suggest me?


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## Ysarex (Jul 26, 2012)

abhishekdg said:


> Ok guys.. I think the topic is getting a little bit too hot. Its a humble topic I have raised as the feel of Leica was better than the Nikon D90 I was shooting. I never want to show Nikon down or say Digital is bad.. There are so many things I believe that digital can do which film cannot. I am personally want to try out rangefinders specially because of the feeling and specially because of the focusing type through the rangefinder. Nothing else..
> 
> Can we come back to suggest me?



If you really want to experience the Leica rangefinder feel then find a used Leica M4. The M4 was the pinnacle achievement of the machine age. When Leica released the M4P (shudder!!) it contained for the first time some metal parts that were stamped and finished rather than properly machined (German engineers rolling over in their graves!). You can't really experience the Leica feel if the film advance on your camera was stamped and then the camera was assembled in Canada.

I am actually serious, I used to sell the things and Leica started downhill with the release of the M4P. I still remember opening up the first one and we all gasped. The camera just looked wrong and felt wrong -- perfection sacrificed for economy -- the beginning of the end. None of this of course having anything to do with taking an excellent photograph.

Joe


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

slackercruster said:


> I have dslr, rangefinder and m43...they all have their purpose.
> 
> Get some $$ together and buy a rangefinder.
> 
> But I'd rec the Fuji Pro or an oldy Epson RD1s. Film is dead pretty much. But if you want film, hate your digital gear, then sell it and do it.



You must be on a different planet if you think film is dead, i know photographers that shot film went digital and went back to film because it is too clean and plastic looking, plus they are getting more work with film


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

bhop said:


> I had the same feeling when I held a Leica for the first time.  After using Canonets and Yashica Electro 35s for a while, I eventually got an M6.  Earlier Ms can be had for less money, but I wanted an internal meter.  With your budget, you can probably swing an M6 with a 3rd party lens, maybe some kind of screwmount lens with an adapter.  That's what I have, M6 with Canon 50mm f/1.4 screwmount.  I'm starting a shoebox savings plan for a Summilux 50 though.. I don't think the Leica lens-lust will go away until I get one, but they're soooo damned expensive.
> 
> I also shoot with a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron f/2.  I like this lens a lot.  Pretty sharp and build quality is nice too.
> 
> ...



You need to look at the Voigtlander 50F1.1, wow what a lens for the money, i have the 40F1.4 and that is a lovely lens


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## bhop (Jul 26, 2012)

gsgary said:


> You need to look at the Voigtlander 50F1.1, wow what a lens for the money, i have the 40F1.4 and that is a lovely lens



Yeah, it just seems so big though.. heh.. blocks a lot of the viewfinder from what i've seen.


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## SamSpade1941 (Jul 26, 2012)

gsgary said:


> slackercruster said:
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> > I have dslr, rangefinder and m43...they all have their purpose.
> ...




It depends on what you are doing as to whether or not you can shoot film or not and be profitable as a professional photographer in this day and age. I often wax poetic about film, but I know the writing is on the wall for the meat and potatoes photographer. If you think the photo journalist of today is going to be shooting film like they did 15 years ago there is fail in that though process because publishers want things 5 minutes ago in the 24 hour Internet news cycle.  

Now if you are talking fashion, automobiles, iphones, or anything else, and you are an in demand artist shooting magazine covers then by all means you can shoot film till they stop making it which by my best guess is 10 to 15 years from now. You dont have to agree but I am betting its so.  

I would love to have a digital range finder or even one of the Leica Digiliux 2 or 3 cameras. I think they care pretty neat machines. I see a niche for the digital rangefinder


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## Derrel (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm pretty happy with the low-cost Voigtlander Bessa R rangefinder that I have...I'm NOT much of a wide-angle guy,so...my favorite lenses are the 35mm f/1.7 Ultron Aspherical, the 50mm f/1.5 Nokton aspherical, and the 75mm f/2.5 Color-Heliar--in that order. The lenses are small, light, solid, and pretty affordable--especially compared against Leica M-series lenses, which are quite pricey. Usayit's suggestions are pretty good, especially RE--the cameraquest.com web site and its articles and reference information; LOADS OF GREAT INFO there regarding rangefinder cameras and lenses that are on the market. Leicas are "Lifetime tools"...most digital are "tools made for an era, and designed to be replaced often."


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## bhop (Jul 26, 2012)

SamSpade1941 said:


> It depends on what you are doing as to whether or not you can shoot film or not and be profitable as a professional photographer in this day and age. I often wax poetic about film, but I know the writing is on the wall for the meat and potatoes photographer. If you think the photo journalist of today is going to be shooting film like they did 15 years ago there is fail in that though process because publishers want things 5 minutes ago in the 24 hour Internet news cycle.
> 
> Now if you are talking fashion, automobiles, iphones, or anything else, and you are an in demand artist shooting magazine covers then by all means you can shoot film till they stop making it which by my best guess is 10 to 15 years from now. You dont have to agree but I am betting its so.
> 
> I would love to have a digital range finder or even one of the Leica Digiliux 2 or 3 cameras. I think they care pretty neat machines. I see a niche for the digital rangefinder



So the gist of what you meant to say was "film is dead for most journalists and sports photographers".  That's a big difference from generally 'dead'.  Who said anything about pros anyway?


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

SamSpade1941 said:


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I shot a roll last night, from getting home to scan it was 30 minutes for small res


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## gsgary (Jul 26, 2012)

SamSpade1941 said:


> gsgary said:
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There is a chap that shoots a Leica M9 and Noctilux F0.95 for weddings and also works for Leica on their coarses, he is in big demand
http://blog.leica-camera.com/photographers/interviews/brett-leica-m-photographer-part-1/


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## SamSpade1941 (Jul 26, 2012)

gsgary said:


> SamSpade1941 said:
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I rest my case. I spent three years working in Iraq and 1 year working in Afghanistan as a contractor , I had very regular opportunity to interact with journalists from all over the world who were reporting for every news agency under the sun and do you know how many I met who were shooting film ?  0 .. That's because when something happened they wanted to be able to take the images off that Nikon Or Canon and transfer them to a laptop and upload them via the nearest Internet connection to their employers. Again for the meat and potatoes photographers who work at news papers and news services film is dead its not fast and slow is death in the 24 hour cycles. Weddings are not fast no one expects wedding photos 10 minutes after they are shot. Nor does anyone expect the car and driver spread in 10 minutes.  Just my two cents. I am not saying people cant make a living with film and  dont. I am saying the majority of the industry has embraced digital for its positive attributes and went forward with it.


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## Ysarex (Jul 26, 2012)

SamSpade1941 said:


> gsgary said:
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Ummmm.... the Leica M9 is a digital camera.

Joe


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## SamSpade1941 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> SamSpade1941 said:
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The M9 is a digital you make an excellent point. What last film camera the M7 was the last film rangefinder IIRC.


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## usayit (Jul 26, 2012)

Why was it necessary to turn this into a "Color vs B&W" AND "Digital vs Film" cluster F mess?  Is this really helping the OP any?????

:banghead:


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## someonenameddavid (Jul 28, 2012)

Buy a Leica, if you love it, you will never sell it. If you don't love it, you will probably get your money back. Your children will have an heirloom and if the vast majority of the world forgets 35mm there will be an "impossible project" somewhere making Tri-X or HP5 and you can develop it with Tylenol Vitamin C Vinegar and home hair permanent curling stuff. You can always sell a kidney and buy an M9. You can use the lenses on an NEX-7 or a Ricoh GXR.

They will have to prise my M3 from my cold, dead hands....

David


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jul 28, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> Fred Berg said:
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^^^^^^^^^^total misinformation. but I guess if its on the 'Net, it just must be true


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## desertrattm2r12 (Sep 6, 2012)

A fine M series Leica is a wonderful little machine and perfect for some types of photography. The old Canon rangefinder P or 7s are very fine, as well. The problem is to get a good one because they were manufactured a very long time ago.


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## gsgary (Sep 6, 2012)

desertrattm2r12 said:
			
		

> A fine M series Leica is a wonderful little machine and perfect for some types of photography. The old Canon rangefinder P or 7s are very fine, as well. The problem is to get a good one because they were manufactured a very long time ago.



An old Leicas have no problems even if they are battered and will last for ever my M4 will still be going when all my Canon digitals are dead


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## bhop (Sep 6, 2012)

desertrattm2r12 said:


> A fine M series Leica is a wonderful little machine and perfect for some types of photography. The old Canon rangefinder P or 7s are very fine, as well. The problem is to get a good one because they were manufactured a very long time ago.



It's not a problem at all getting a good M, most have been pretty well taken care of over the years... heck, even the older screwmounts still work fine, I still use my 1956 IIIf on a regular basis.  Leica = quality, the old Canons were built to similar standards too.


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## Mike_E (Sep 6, 2012)

Getting a cheap rangefinder is a good idea.  run 6 or 8 rolls through it and see if you like the style.

If you do then pull the trigger on the Leica.  If not then you'll have saved a lot of money.




Or you could quit kidding yourself and go directly into Large format.  It's about the same money.

You can't beat an analog B&W print and a 4X5 (or up) negative is night and day better than 135 format.  You also seem to put a premium on the process of photography and LF has that 6 ways from zero too.


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