# Flash decisions?



## N1kon1k

Hey everyone 
I mainly shoot landscape but lately I have been trying to get into photographing kids outside and what not.... 

Light isn't always the best when shooting and sometimes parents want shooting sessions during harsh light... 

I feel like a flash can help balancing the light or filling in... 

I own a D750 and will be buying a Tamron 70-200 f2.8... 

What flash can I start with? Something that won't break the bank but also will give me options if I need them?


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## tirediron

How large is the bank.  You can spend anywhere from $50 to $5000.  This is a decent, inexpensive unit that will do what you want.


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## N1kon1k

Yikes... A bit too pricey lol ... since I'm buying the Tamron lens I might be able to swing between $200-300 unless there is something cheaper that will work just as good


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## Destin

Check out this unit from flashpoint. You can also get a wireless trigger from them to use it off camera, and that trigger will also run their studio strobes simultaneously if you ever have a need to invest in more lighting kit.

Edit: this is the canon version. Be sure to get the Nikon version.


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## N1kon1k

Destin said:


> Check out this unit from flashpoint. You can also get a wireless trigger from them to use it off camera, and that trigger will also run their studio strobes simultaneously if you ever have a need to invest in more lighting kit.
> 
> Edit: this is the canon version. Be sure to get the Nikon version.



Looks like it has great reviews... I'm going to look into it....


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## tirediron

N1kon1k said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this unit from flashpoint. You can also get a wireless trigger from them to use it off camera, and that trigger will also run their studio strobes simultaneously if you ever have a need to invest in more lighting kit.
> 
> Edit: this is the canon version. Be sure to get the Nikon version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it has great reviews... I'm going to look into it....
Click to expand...

A GN of 127 is respectable, but it's not going to overpower the sun.  You need a whole lot more oomph than a single speedlight to do balanced exposure in "harsh" light.  If you can't afford something bigger, I would recommend saving your money until you can.  Speedlights are great, and incredibly versatile, but they just don't have a lot of power.


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## Destin

tirediron said:


> N1kon1k said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this unit from flashpoint. You can also get a wireless trigger from them to use it off camera, and that trigger will also run their studio strobes simultaneously if you ever have a need to invest in more lighting kit.
> 
> Edit: this is the canon version. Be sure to get the Nikon version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it has great reviews... I'm going to look into it....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A GN of 127 is respectable, but it's not going to overpower the sun.  You need a whole lot more oomph than a single speedlight to do balanced exposure in "harsh" light.  If you can't afford something bigger, I would recommend saving your money until you can.  Speedlights are great, and incredibly versatile, but they just don't have a lot of power.
Click to expand...


That's why I reccomended the flashpoint system. For $750 you can get into their xplor 600 studio strobes that are battery powered with full TTL, and you can control them with the same trigger as this speedlight. 

Plenty of room for expansion in the future.


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## tirediron

Destin said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N1kon1k said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this unit from flashpoint. You can also get a wireless trigger from them to use it off camera, and that trigger will also run their studio strobes simultaneously if you ever have a need to invest in more lighting kit.
> 
> Edit: this is the canon version. Be sure to get the Nikon version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it has great reviews... I'm going to look into it....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A GN of 127 is respectable, but it's not going to overpower the sun.  You need a whole lot more oomph than a single speedlight to do balanced exposure in "harsh" light.  If you can't afford something bigger, I would recommend saving your money until you can.  Speedlights are great, and incredibly versatile, but they just don't have a lot of power.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's why I reccomended the flashpoint system. For $750 you can get into their xplor 600 studio strobes that are battery powered with full TTL, and you can control them with the same trigger as this speedlight.
> 
> Plenty of room for expansion in the future.
Click to expand...

Good point - just as long as the OP doesn't think that one will do the same as the other.


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## astroNikon

are we talking Strobes or a Flash/Speedlight?

you can get a refurbished Nikon SB-700 for like $220ish USD


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## tirediron

astroNikon said:


> are we talking Strobes or a Flash/Speedlight?


Yes.


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## Derrel

N1kon1k said:


> Hey everyone
> I mainly shoot landscape but lately I have been trying to get into *photographing kids outside* and what not....
> 
> Light isn't always the best when shooting and sometimes parents want s*hooting sessions during harsh light... *
> 
> I feel like a flash can help balancing the light or filling in...
> 
> I own a D750 and will be buying a Tamron 70-200 f2.8...
> 
> What flash can I start with? Something that won't break the bank but also will give me *options if I need them?*



Hmmmm...some things to consider....for fill-in flash, the fill-in is usually about 2 to 3 EV less than the main light, which we'll assume is sunlight or sky-lighting.

So, you probably really want a flash that can do FP Sync (Nikon's official term) or whjat Canon users call High Speed Sync or HSS.

There are a number of units that can shoot flash at fast shutter speeds, above the 1/250 X-sync on many Nikons. At WIDE f/stops, like say f/2.8 at 1/4000 second, you can make ugly outdoor backgrounds become smooth, defocused blurs, so make sure you get an HSS/FP sync capable flash unit if you want tyo be able to get to wide f/stops and the fast shutter speeds they need in bright, outdoor lighting conditions.

Smaller lights,like the SB-700 or SB-800 or SB-910 from Nikon are ample for fill-in lighting, because as I said earlier, fill-in flash is usually shot at Minus 2.0 to Minus 3.0 EV...

Once you start getting into scenarios where you want the FLASH to be the Key Light (or Main Light) light soure, then you'd likely want the power of the larger Xplor 600 or Streaklight 360,etc...In other words, you want a much,much higher Guide Number than 127 in Feet at ISO 100. At 10 feet, a GN of 127 means f/12.7...ehhhh...NOT very powerful, really. Not compared to studio-type flash units. Again, though...as Fill-in, that's reasonably powerful.


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## N1kon1k

The SB-700 is what I had in mind... but wasn't sure if there were better or just as good for a lower price... when thinking "Refurb" is it worth the $80 gamble? I keep reading that flashes tend to have a short life


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## astroNikon

Where are you finding an Nikon official refurbished Nikon SB-700 for $80 ?


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## dunfly

How about this.  Green technology, plus you can save a lot on batteries.
Westcott 5-in-1 Reflector Disc - 40.5" (1 m) 301 B&H Photo


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## ronlane

For shooting portraits outdoors and dealing with harsh lighting, I would consider either of these.

Interfit S1 -  500ws flash with on board rechargeable battery.

Flash point XPLOR 600 - 600ws flash with on board rechargeable battery.

I have other lights in the Flashpoint series and I really like them. I have been around and used the Interfit S1 and I like it well enough that I have been considering selling my studio strobes and going to this system.

Another alternative in the Flashpoint series is the Streaklight 360 - It is only 360ws of power but it is my go to and travel lighting. I have bought the mount for a stand where I can use bowens mount light modifiers with it.

Just a not to @Derrel's comment about high speed sync. All three of these options will support it on my Canon system so they should on the Nikon as well.

IMHO for harsh sunlight situations, HSS is the way to go. (But I will try to find open shade if at all possible.)


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## Derrel

ronlane said:
			
		

> Interfit S1 -  500ws flash with on board rechargeable battery.
> 
> Flash point XPLOR 600 - 600ws flash with on board rechargeable battery.
> 
> Streaklight 360



I notice the Interfit shoots 350 flashes and the Xplor600 can do 450, at full power, and that the Xplor has almost twice the battery storage as the Interfit has, at, basically around the same price point.

I'm NOT really "sold" on the idea of TTL studio flash, but I DO like the idea of High Speed Sync flash for outdoors work.

My issue though is the cost per Watt-second, and per flash unit...$729 to $749 PER flash unit is a lot of money. But then...the capabilities and features are very much cutting edge!


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## ronlane

@Derrel those aren't cheap for sure but when you are going up against the Profoto B1 and are less than half the price of it.....

I see your point about TTL, but remember that you've been doing this a long time. For someone that isn't so knowledgeable with flash, I think it can help them get in the ball park a lot faster than trial and error.

I knew that I'd convert you to HSS...


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## Derrel

N1kon1k said:
			
		

> The SB-700 is what I had in mind... but wasn't sure if there were better or just as good for a lower price... when thinking "Refurb" is it worth the $80 gamble? I keep reading that flashes tend to have a short life



NIKON-branded flashes....short life? Not sure about that. I have units from them that are 35-plus years old, and still work. I have an SB-800 that is pretty old now too, my newest Nikon-branded flash, it's from 2005 as I recall, still works great. Cheapie, oiff-brand flashes DO tend to have shoirter lifes, and have a reputation for dying, or slowly malfunctioning, or of suddently ceasing to function, but NIKON-branded flash units are not of the same, disposable type, and are NOT know for "short life" issues.

The SB 700 has a pretty good reputation, and it will work perfectly with a Nikon d-slr of modern vintage.


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## Derrel

ronlane said:


> @Derrel those aren't cheap for sure but when you are going up against the Profoto B1 and are less than half the price of it.....
> 
> I see your point about TTL, but remember that you've been doing this a long time. For someone that isn't so knowledgeable with flash, I think it can help them get in the ball park a lot faster than trial and error.
> 
> I knew that I'd convert you to HSS...



YES, the Xplor600 is right at about one-third of the price of a comparable Profoto B1 Air monolight: I saw the video you linked me to some months ago, and the Xplor600 actually out-performed the B1 Air in many of the test criteria! Not too surprising, since the Profoto B1 Air was, as I recall, the very FIRST TTL-capable battery-operated monolight when it hit the market, and the designers of the Xplor600 had a complete list of what they needed to match or to exceed in order to make a very viable competing product in that category.

My cost concerns are not so much versus the B1 Air, but against low-tech monolights that are $99 to $159 each; while not giving High Speed Sync capability, low-tech 150 Watt-second monolights, or even low-cost Made in China HSS-capable speedlights ganged into 3-unit or 4-unit groups could give a close approximation of the power of a single, $729 monolight, for a price of something like $190-$300, not $729.

Still: I want to say that I think that TTL flash control is wayyyyy LESS-valuable than is HSS, and there are monolights that can do HSS, but which are NOT TTL-compatible, at considerable cost savings. A lot of outdoor family/senior/wedding stuff is going to be shot at the same, exact f/stop at fairly common distance ranges, and manual control of the flash power will work quite well, but the ability to go to High Speed Synchronization mode, and the capability shoot at high shutter speeds and wide f/stops--now that is valuable--much, much, muuuuuch more-valuable than TTL flash squelching.


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## fmw

Derrell has hit the nail on the head.  I want to underline two of his comments.  The first is that a portable flash unit like the SB-800 (I used one for many years) is perfectly adequate for the typical amateur outdoor fill flash application.  You don't need one of the big boys for that, assuming your subject is people and not something larger or farther away..

The second is the importance of TTL flash control.  To me this the innovation that helped me personally more than any other one in my photographic history.  I can make proper images with the simplest manual camera but often had problems dealing with manual flash exposures.  The process for determining manual flash exposure is inaccurate because it can't consider the reflectivity of the subject.  It is simply a power and distance measurement.  TTL changed all that and made flash photography very easy and consistence.  Be sure the unit you buy has TTL compatibility with your camera body.


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## petrochemist

Another thing to consider instead of just adding fill in light, is using a scrim or similar to soften the harsh sunlight. I suspect the ideal solution would involve a little of each flash being a much more controllable approach, but with the scrim the power needed from the flash would drop dramatically.


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## ronlane

Derrel said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Derrel those aren't cheap for sure but when you are going up against the Profoto B1 and are less than half the price of it.....
> 
> I see your point about TTL, but remember that you've been doing this a long time. For someone that isn't so knowledgeable with flash, I think it can help them get in the ball park a lot faster than trial and error.
> 
> I knew that I'd convert you to HSS...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES, the Xplor600 is right at about one-third of the price of a comparable Profoto B1 Air monolight: I saw the video you linked me to some months ago, and the Xplor600 actually out-performed the B1 Air in many of the test criteria! Not too surprising, since the Profoto B1 Air was, as I recall, the very FIRST TTL-capable battery-operated monolight when it hit the market, and the designers of the Xplor600 had a complete list of what they needed to match or to exceed in order to make a very viable competing product in that category.
> 
> My cost concerns are not so much versus the B1 Air, but against low-tech monolights that are $99 to $159 each; while not giving High Speed Sync capability, low-tech 150 Watt-second monolights, or even low-cost Made in China HSS-capable speedlights ganged into 3-unit or 4-unit groups could give a close approximation of the power of a single, $729 monolight, for a price of something like $190-$300, not $729.
> 
> Still: I want to say that I think that TTL flash control is wayyyyy LESS-valuable than is HSS, and there are monolights that can do HSS, but which are NOT TTL-compatible, at considerable cost savings. A lot of outdoor family/senior/wedding stuff is going to be shot at the same, exact f/stop at fairly common distance ranges, and manual control of the flash power will work quite well, but the ability to go to High Speed Synchronization mode, and the capability shoot at high shutter speeds and wide f/stops--now that is valuable--much, much, muuuuuch more-valuable than TTL flash squelching.
Click to expand...


I understand what you are saying about the price. It all depends on what you personally want. For someone that is doing a lot of sessions and will be setting up and tearing down, the cost may be worth it to them. Which is the case for me. I already have a set up with the Streaklight 360, that is battery powered and portable and the set up and tear down isn't that bad. But I have seriously considered adding the 600 or the S1 to my kit.

I agree that the TTL isn't the sales point for me either, as I have been doing it manually since I started to save me money on my lights.

Guess I was just throwing out the options that I find cost justifiable for my personal wants/needs.

We totally agree on that the HSS is much more valuable for a flash unit.


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## N1kon1k

astroNikon said:


> Where are you finding an Nikon official refurbished Nikon SB-700 for $80 ?


Sorry my mistake I meant to say $80 less than msrp... lol... should of phrased it better


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## N1kon1k

Thanks everyone for all your informative input... I'm goin to settle with the Sb-700 for now because I'm also buying the Tamron 70-200 2.8 ... if this is something that becomes more serious and I'm in demand I can than justify investing on better equipment... by than the extra money from the shoot will make it easier to buy things little by little


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## benhasajeep

N1kon1k said:


> The SB-700 is what I had in mind... but wasn't sure if there were better or just as good for a lower price... when thinking "Refurb" is it worth the $80 gamble? I keep reading that flashes tend to have a short life



I currently have 21 Nikon Speedlights.  Only 1 currently does not work.  An SB-600 with a blown tube.  I have flashes going back to the 80's that still work.  But I take care of my flashes.  Even if the older one's don't get used very often.  They get checked and fired off every 3 months.  When I do large architectural jobs they are all put to work with radio triggers.  The older ones have longer recycle times.  But they are not used for fast shooting situations either.

I have SB-700 that I carry with me for my travel camera (D3300).  Really a decent flash.  Had it 2-3 years now.  No issues with it at all.

I have heard lots of good reviews about the Yongnuo flashes.  They are about 1/3 to 1/4 of Nikon flashes.  And some models have direct Nikon communications.  Many people say they are good.  But they are still fairly new to the market.


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