# Need advise on children and family photography



## abee

Hi all,

I am wanting to specialize in photographing children and family portraits and cake smashes. I've taken courses. I've practiced.   Now I'm ready to take it to the next level. I'm willing to invest in some equipment. I have good lighting and backdrops, but I have a Nikon D3200 with a 50mm 1.8 which are ok but if I'm going to start charging money I want to make sure I've got the tools. I need to be able to shoot indoors and outdoors and something that can take on wriggly children.  My questions are:

- do I stick with my D3200 and get a Tamron 24-70mm?  Or even get the Nikon 24-70mm?
- do I get a different lens completely? Willing to listen to other suggestions.
- do I upgrade my camera to full frame?  If so, suggestions? 

Amazon has some nice packages of cameras and lenses that I've seen. 

Thanks for the advise!


----------



## JonA_CT

I think it all depends on your budget -- obviously, a full-frame camera and a fast lens will be more capable than what you have, but there is a big difference in throwing down $500 on a Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 (the DX fast zoom of choice around here it seems) or spending $3500 on a a D750 and the Nikon 24-70mm F2.8. 

If it were me, I'd probably start with the Sigma zoom and see how that changes the way I take photos, but I also have no aspirations of being a pro.


----------



## astroNikon

Taken Courses and practiced ?
I'll flop to the other end of the spectrum from Jon.

If you are going to go Pro, and you have the money and you want all your bases covered for all various venues, I'd go with an FX camera.   I had a DX and went to FX and I loved it's ability of taking photos indoors vs the DX (D7000 vs D600).

I would also skip Amazon.  Many of the packages through in junk stuff that is useless.
Of course, it will all depend upon your budget, and then your skill level.  FX cameras are routinely used by many Pro's in low light events such as at weddings, etc.  I'm not a Pro but I'm sure some will chime in.


----------



## Designer

Never mind.


----------



## astroNikon

Designer said:


> I doubt very much if you need any different lenses, but I didn't read where you have a flash and can fire it off camera with a proper modifier and/reflectors.
> 
> I mean; if you're contemplating a backdrop (which I wouldn't bother with) then surely you would consider using flash.


OP stated " I have good lighting and backdrops" FWIW

I was going to mention it again, until I read that ...


----------



## ruifo

I'd aim to: D610 DSLR + Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 VC + Nikkor 85mm f/1.8G + Sigma 150mm f/2.8 Macro 1:1


----------



## tirediron

Do you have a business license?  Tax number/ID, insurance, proper agreements/releases/contracts?  While not sexy, those are the nitty-gritty tools that will serve you far better over the course of your career than any camera or lens. 

What do you mean by "good" lighting and backdrops?


----------



## waday

tirediron said:


> Do you have a business license? Tax number/ID, insurance, proper agreements/releases/contracts? While not sexy, those are the nitty-gritty tools that will serve you far better over the course of your career than any camera or lens.


I can imagine it now... kids running around at a party accidentally knock your camera out of your hands. No insurance? Darn, you have to buy a new camera.

Or... kids running around at a party, trip on your equipment, fall, break their arm or worse. No insurance? Now, the parents are suing you for thousands upon thousands of dollars, and the government is breathing down your neck because you didn't have the proper license. Yikes!


----------



## tirediron

waday said:


> ...Or... kids running around at a party, trip on your equipment, fall, break their arm or worse. No insurance? Now, the parents are suing you for thousands upon thousands of dollars, and the government is breathing down your neck because you didn't have the proper license. Yikes!


Nah.. that would never happen!


----------



## vintagesnaps

If you're at a point of considering doing professional work you should know what you need. If you don't, that's one thing that could be telling you it's going to take time to become a pro and you might not quite be there yet. Taking classes is great, but that may not be enough to move into professional work.

Besides budgeting for equipment, you probably need to think about a business plan. John brought up some great information, you could try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA for resources for pros on contracts, licensing, etc. Get on ASMP's site and you'll see there's a lot to learn and to consider so you're prepared and can be successful.


----------



## Derrel

abee said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I am wanting to specialize in photographing children and family portraits and cake smashes. I've taken courses. I've practiced.   Now I'm ready to take it to the next level. I'm willing to invest in some equipment. I have good lighting and backdrops, but I have a Nikon D3200 with a 50mm 1.8 which are ok but if I'm going to start charging money I want to make sure I've got the tools. I need to be able to shoot indoors and outdoors and something that can take on wriggly children.  My questions are:
> - do I stick with my D3200 and get a Tamron 24-70mm?  Or even get the Nikon 24-70mm?
> - do I get a different lens completely? Willing to listen to other suggestions.
> - do I upgrade my camera to full frame?  If so, suggestions?!



A 24-70mm zoom on an APS-C body is NOT a very good lens choice for indoor work--the bottom end (24mm) will be a semi-wide 36mm field of view equivalent , and the top end will be a useful 105mm field of view equivalent. I would buy a 17-50mm f/2.8 for much less money if you decide to stick with the D3200, or any other APS-C Nikon body.

The D3200 has a small, rather poor viewfinder. I am not at all a fan of the deep DOF look that APS-C provides, but the camera you have can and could "do the job", especially if your *good lighting* is an electronic flash unit and one or two umbrellas. I think one medium-sized, white reflecting umbrella and about 150 Watt-seconds of electronic flash would be plenty to get started lighting these types of small-set baby and child photos.

Full frame camera? If you want to, sure, why not. NIkon D600 is affordable, Nikon D610 costs a bit more but is almost the same camera as the D600. I would NOT rule out a Nikon D3s used body either. You could use any number of cameras.


----------



## abee

tirediron said:


> Do you have a business license?  Tax number/ID, insurance, proper agreements/releases/contracts?  While not sexy, those are the nitty-gritty tools that will serve you far better over the course of your career than any camera or lens.
> 
> What do you mean by "good" lighting and backdrops?



Both my husband and I are insurance brokers so we will have all those bases covered. And by good lighting I mean I have a great open concept house with large bay windows that allow lots of light in, plus I have a speed light, a reflector, and 2 softboxes


----------



## abee

tirediron said:


> Do you have a business license?  Tax number/ID, insurance, proper agreements/releases/contracts?  While not sexy, those are the nitty-gritty tools that will serve you far better over the course of your career than any camera or lens.
> 
> What do you mean by "good" lighting and backdrops?




Both my husband and I are insurance brokers so we will have all those bases covered. And by good lighting I mean I have a great open concept house with large bay windows that allow lots of light in, plus I have a speed light, a reflector, and 2 softboxes


----------



## abee

vintagesnaps said:


> If you're at a point of considering doing professional work you should know what you need. If you don't, that's one thing that could be telling you it's going to take time to become a pro and you might not quite be there yet. Taking classes is great, but that may not be enough to move into professional work.
> 
> Besides budgeting for equipment, you probably need to think about a business plan. John brought up some great information, you could try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA for resources for pros on contracts, licensing, etc. Get on ASMP's site and you'll see there's a lot to learn and to consider so you're prepared and can be successful.




I know I'm not there yet, thank you, I'm asking on advise to give me the right tools to get there.


----------



## Derrel

This is a pretty crowded genre, with many,many low-priced practitioners and it is a very well-understood genre, with a huge number of people offering very much close to identical work--thanks to Flickr, 500px, Facebook, Pinterest, and so on, and so the customers have a very good idea of what they want their baby pics to look like, and they have the ability to on-line shop and compare. My suggestion: do NOT put prices on your web site, which will eliminate people shopping your site just based on price: get them to call you on the telephone, where you'd better be able to hook them, and book them.

Over the last couple of years, I've perused maybe sixty such people' sites. and most have prices on them, very detailed prices. The problem is, the majority of the site owners/photographers have work that does not line up with the prices they have, it seems, copied from local competitors. SO--why would anybody book anything when the work is not as good as the work of a better, but identically-preiced competitor?

Unless your work is simply **outstanding**, you will be beaten out for booking by people who have a better site, or better portfolio, or better sales materials. Ergo...SKIP the prices, and get people to CALL YOU, so you can hook 'em and book 'em.


----------



## tirediron

abee said:


> ...I have a great open concept house with large bay windows that allow lots of light in, plus I have a speed light, a reflector, and 2 softboxes


That's a start, but you've a way to go before you reach 'good lighting'.  The windows and ambient light in your house are really irrelevant, but I will assume based on that your intention is to shoot at least some sessions using your home as a studio.  First and foremost, few houses, even really large ones have sufficient room and ceiling height for group studio work (FWIW, let's take "family to mean Mom, Dad, and two children).  10' ceilings are, IMO the absolute minimum and even in my studio, I have found the 14' ceilings to be limiting in some cases.  You want LOTS of open space so that you can move around the clients and move lights around.  For family work, I would want at a space at least 10x20 with at least 12' ceilings. 

As for lighting, it's great to have lots of nice ambient light, but you can't rely on it.  If you get a client that wants their session shot at 1.00pm on a completely overcast December day, you need to be able to accommodate.  Three lights is, IMO, the absolute minimum, and five is a much better number.  Look into Adorama's Flashpoint series of monolights as a starting point.  Three of their 150 w/s units would be very inexpensive and an excellent starting point. 

As far as lenses go, if you're going to stick with your current body, I would simply pick up a 55-200; you're going to be shooting groups using smaller apertures so that issue won't be a problem, and it's cheap like borscht.


----------



## KmH

Be sure and check local ordinances.
In the town where I live a local ordinance prohibits residents from conduct a retail business in their home.

I agree with John that window light has some significant limitations, mostly due to lack of control over the light source - the sun.
The color temperature of the light will change throughout the day, and the sun's altitude as it moves through the sky changes through out the year.
Weather causes lots of problems when too if window light is your main source of light .

Your profile has no location information so it's hard to assess the quality and direction your window light is likely to have.

The best window light comes from north facing windows.
East and west window light is problematic at different times of the day. 
East window light is harsh in the morning and west window light is harsh in the afternoon/evening.
Here in central Iowa the sun doesn't rise higher than about 45° above the horizon in the winter but goes almost straight up and overhead in the summer.

The optimum control of light comes from using a room with no window light at all and using the 3 to 5 studio lights John mentions.
For group shots you need larger light modifiers (reflectors and softboxes) and more lights than you would want to use for a child.

Light modifier size determines how harsh or soft the light used is on your subjects and on how much area the light can be effectively used.

Doing photography as a business is nothing like doing photography as a hobby.
About 70 percent of a retail photographers time and effort winds up needing to be devoted to doing business tasks in order to keep the business going and profitable.
So successfully doing photography as a business is mostly about having really good business skills.
Many mediocre photographers make a good living doing retail photography because they are better at running a business than they are at doing photography.

Effective communication, both spoken and written, is a business skill that helps run a business.
Good luck with your business venture.

FWIW - Advise is a verb. Advice is a noun.


----------



## Designer

abee said:


> I'm asking on advise to give me the right tools to get there.


Don't overlook salesmanship as a tool.  You might have that covered, but just a reminder.  

I agree, windows are not much use, really, because of the direction of the light entering.  About the best shoot using window light would be something like a toddler playing on the floor about three or four feet from the window wall.  Then you get nice soft light coming from higher up.  Anything else is dealing with sideways light, which can be effective in certain poses, etc., but usually only for those certain effects.


----------



## abee

Thanks for your time and comments, everyone.  

I'm near Vancouver, BC, I have 10 ft ceilings and the windows face south. 

I do not have any timeline for my venture.  Could be this year. Could be 5 years from now. Might be never. Who knows.  I don't even know if I'll be good enough to charge money for my photos. My inquiry was into what equipment I should be looking into in preparation for that time. i want to have the right tools and I'm willing to invest some money now.


----------



## tirediron

Lighting.  LOTS of lighting gear.


----------



## beagle100

tirediron said:


> Lighting.  LOTS of lighting gear.




This children and family photographer uses only natural light
*www.flickr.com/photos/desertrose76*


----------



## Designer

abee said:


> Could be this year. Could be 5 years from now. Might be never.


You need to push this out of your mind right now.  You need a timeline in which  positive steps are made at or very near the timeline, otherwise you'll never achieve your goal.  

Start making that timeline and saving up for your first purchase.  It doesn't need to be a huge investment of a large expensive thing, but every year or every month you need to get something done.  

Start doing research on lights and modifiers.  Come back on here to ask questions.  Ready, set, go!


----------



## KmH

beagle100 said:


> This children and family photographer uses only natural light
> *www.flickr.com/photos/desertrose76*


And it shows - with many shots of the people and babies having 'raccoon eyes' or dark eye sockets.
A lot of the photos also have little or no 'pop' and the photographer has had to resort to some heavy handed post process image editing in an attempt to create the kind of pop that can be gotten using supplemental light.


----------



## beagle100

KmH said:


> beagle100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This children and family photographer uses only natural light
> *www.flickr.com/photos/desertrose76*
> 
> 
> 
> And it shows - with many shots of the people and babies having 'raccoon eyes' or dark eye sockets.
> A lot of the photos also have little or no 'pop' and the photographer has had to resort to some heavy handed post process image editing in an attempt to create the kind of pop that can be gotten using supplemental light.
Click to expand...


LOL !

the photographer is actually quite famous with her *natural light "*pop"

*How To Shoot Dreamy Backlit Portraits With Natural Light*


----------



## KmH

Which shows how low the bar has gotten in the retail photography industry.


----------



## beagle100

KmH said:


> Which shows how low the bar has gotten in the retail photography industry.



we pity the poor photographers !
Lisa Holloway


----------



## abee

Ok I'm back for more advise. I've made the decision to upgrade to full frame.  I went to my local camera store and they let me put my memory card into a few bodies and take some pictures.

1st option:
Nikon D610 kit with 50mm 1.4D
2nd option:
Nikon D610 body and purchase a 85mm 1.8
3rd option:
Nikon D750 kit with 24-120mm f4/G ED VR

Of the shots I took,the 3rd option came out the most sharp.  I think I'm hung up on the fact its f4, and not wider.   If I go with option #3 I can still use my 50mm 1.8 so that may solve my issue.  But how does this lens hold up indoors?  It looked fantastic outside on a sunny day.


----------



## astroNikon

With indoor you still have to deal with Depth of Field.  So f/1.8 allows more light in, but if you are up close and trying to take a photo with more DOF for a couple ppl shot you still need f/4-5.6 or more.  The FF sensor will compensate for this  very well.   The addition  you have the 50mm f/1.8.
I think moving to FF allows more flexibility especially for indoor and even outdoor when the light gets lower during the evening.   I'd still go with the d750 due to the zoom.  FYI, I use a D600 and use mostly f/2.8 glass but have some general zooms too which are fine in lower light due to the low light sensitivity of the FF sensor.


----------

