# What's so special about PocketWizard?



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

I try to understand what's so great about pocket wizard, but I just can't figure it out. The way I see it, it's a proprietary wireless TTL protocol, which takes information between the camera and flash and sends it through a radio.

Is this seriously all it is? If so, anyone could set up an xbee radio to do that at a fraction of the cost.


----------



## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

Awesome! When will your products be on the market??? Sign me up for two sets!

What's special about Pocket Wizards is that they actually work, every time, over long distances, without all the B.S., and without the excuses that Chinese trigger users have to make all the time. They can trigger your flashes, OR your cameras, reliably, and they use large, AA batteries, not whimpy little hearing aid batteries, so they can be used in cold temperatures, or left switched on for days if needed. They do not "go to sleep", and need to be awakened. PW's are simple to operate, reliable, and proven. They are simply reliable devices that work over great distances, indoors or out, every time. BUT, unlike Chinese triggers, they do NOT COME WITH a two-page list of B.S. excuses in Engrish to use when they fall asleep, or fail to fire, or will not work at 1,000 feet...


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I try to understand what's so great about pocket wizard, but I just can't figure it out. The way I see it, it's a proprietary wireless TTL protocol, which takes information between the camera and flash and sends it through a radio.
> 
> Is this seriously all it is?* If so, anyone coulds set up an xbee radio to do that at a fraction of the cost*.





Not and have the distance or high speed sync.  I can shoot my elinchrom  and profoto studio strobes at 1/2000th using the software calibration  the "flash firing instant" to the shutter (non-TTL). Shoot, see curtain?   Adjust flash instant, repeat until you have max shutter heh But you have  to have the PW software on your computer to change the time instant on  the PW.

And another thing, I have yet to see PW's competitors  fire as reliably or as far ( I can fire a flash over 3 football fields  away LoL)

Don't settle for a second best trigger 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





A plethora of cheap triggers already exist in the marketplace.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm with Derrel, make a better trigger system/software, I'll be all over it!


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Hmm. I'll have to get a TTL flash and experiment with xbee. If all that a pocket wizard is is a reliable radio, then I can guarantee that it's overpriced. WAY overpriced, actually.

I'm not interested in manufacturing a radio anyone can build, and I know I can't power it off just two AA batteries, at least not the camera-side interface, but if I ever do get around to trying this, I'll be sure to post my exploits for anyone who is interested.

xbee actually has lots of advantages. They could be set up so that any radio can self discover any other radio, no more of this 20th century "channel" nonsense, include, exclude or adjust any strobe or group of strobes remotely, any radio could be used as a master unit or slave unit, a wireless control interface or even PC-based control interface could be easily implemented and because the whole thing is open source easily customizable and user modifiable.

Parts would be cheap. Like less than 100$ cheap.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

Channels are you're friend while shooting around others.  otherwise its easy to switch to channel one.

TTL blows chunks.  Truly calibrating a shutter to the precise millisecond a strobe fires rocks at high speed sync.

You'll discover in time why some of us spring more bux for PW

If it was "only a reliability advantage" I'd simply carry a few spares of the second best brand.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Oct 23, 2012)

There are ton's of things out there that you yourself can make for less if you have the time and skill.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > I try to understand what's so great about pocket wizard, but I just can't figure it out. The way I see it, it's a proprietary wireless TTL protocol, which takes information between the camera and flash and sends it through a radio.
> ...



sorry, I didn't see this.

i think 2ms should be well within the communication rate of the xbee interface... maybe not. 2ms sounds fast, but it really isn't at all.


----------



## tirediron (Oct 23, 2012)

To summarize what Derrel said.  They work.  That's it.  They just work.  Each time, every time!


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

OK, if the xbee will fire  MANUAL studio strobes at shutter speeds of 1/2000th - 1/8000th without showing the dreaded curtain please let me know.

None of the aftermarket brands i tried will work with my strobes past what the camera will...  1/320 or a little better if I'm lucky.

And "TTL" speedlights = LoL


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Channels are you're friend while shooting around others.  otherwise its easy to switch to channel one.
> 
> TTL blows chunks.  Truly calibrating a shutter to the precise millisecond a strobe fires rocks at high speed sync.
> 
> ...



i wouldn't recommend the off brands either, at least not if you are professional. I'm just thinking I could do this better.

but seriously, millisecond synchro isn't exactly groundbreaking. You could even compensate for strobe lag using a photo sensor. Because I have everything I need for this, I'll probably start with non-TTL high speed sync .. using any strobe and flash.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Channels are you're friend while shooting around others.  otherwise its easy to switch to channel one.
> ...



Start a thread for it, I'd like to subscribe.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> And "TTL" speedlights = LoL



TOTALLY agree. This just seems like the feature most talked about with PW, and would be ridiculously easy to implement. As for channels, that wouldn't be a problem at all. You'd just name each of your flashes and exclude any flash that isn't yours, or even set it up ahead of time to only include flashes that you know are yours. You could be shooting wirelessly amongst hundreds of other photographers and thousands of strobes, and only yours would work. Channels are an analog communications leftover.

will this high sync speed work with any strobe, or only compatible ones, does it fire through the PC sync, or a special interface? 1/8K might be pushing it with a 16mhz arduino, but the 32mhz arduino should handle it. DK though. This is all within audio frequency, people have done FFT analysis on the arduino. There is an oscilloscope project which sends real time data back to the PC. I'll look into that and see what the maximum timing is.

also, is this feature available on all PW or only select models. I'd like to review the user manual so I know what I'm dealing with.


----------



## kathyt (Oct 23, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Awesome! When will your products be on the market??? Sign me up for two sets!
> 
> What's special about Pocket Wizards is that they actually work, every time, over long distances, without all the B.S., and without the excuses that Chinese trigger users have to make all the time. They can trigger your flashes, OR your cameras, reliably, and they use large, AA batteries, not whimpy little hearing aid batteries, so they can be used in cold temperatures, or left switched on for days if needed. They do not "go to sleep", and need to be awakened. PW's are simple to operate, reliable, and proven. They are simply reliable devices that work over great distances, indoors or out, every time. BUT, unlike Chinese triggers, they do NOT COME WITH a two-page list of B.S. excuses in Engrish to use when they fall asleep, or fail to fire, or will not work at 1,000 feet...




This times ten!  PW's are great.  I have used cheap Calumet triggers before these and they were a pain in the butt.  PW's are hands down a must buy.  Another plus for me was that there wasn't a designated receiver or transmitter, they are universal so it doesn't matter which one goes on what.  Which makes everything SOOOO much easier!


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

I thought there was a receiver and transmitter module? But there isn't? If I bought any two PW modules, either can receive or transmit?

As for distance, line of sight communication is specified in kilometers on the xbee... so this won't be a problem, unless you're using a 15 gigawatt/second monolight powered by a portable nuclear reactor.


----------



## kathyt (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I thought there was a receiver and transmitter module? But there isn't? If I bought any two PW modules, either can receive or transmit?
> 
> As for distance, line of sight communication is specified in kilometers on the xbee... so this won't be a problem, unless you're using a 15 gigawatt/second monolight powered by a portable nuclear reactor.



I have these, and they are universal.  It doesn't matter which one you put on what because they all work the same way.  They are exactly the same thing. 
Pocketwizard® - Wireless transmitters and receivers


----------



## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

Older PW's had transmitter and receiver models, one per each "set". NEWER ones are transceivers, so, they are "switch hitters"....AC~DC, swing both ways,ya' know???


----------



## Big Mike (Oct 23, 2012)

Depends which PWs you are talking about.  The TL series (capable of TTL) do have separate transmitters and receivers.  But the 'regular' units are the 'Plus' series (currently the Plus III), which are Transceivers.  

I use the Cyber Sync trigger system....and besides the transmitter using a watch battery, I have no complaints.  Very reliable and less expensive than PW.  Although, the Plus III looks pretty good.


----------



## billross77 (Oct 23, 2012)

I use the Phottix Odin system. It was cheaper than the PW but wasn't "cheap". The only negative I could find online about the PW was an intermittent radio interference problem. Not sure how often that comes up though. FWIW I've never tried my Odins with studio strobes but have fires my flashs at 1/4000.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Ok. I'll get a spare sync cord and work on wired non-ttl high speed sync first. From there getting a radio would just be a matter of implementation. Whether xbee would be too slow for this, idk, but a simple transceiver wouldn't be. Xbee just has a LOT of nice advantages, like self-discovery and modern name-space based communication. But for non-TTL, it's a matter of sending 1 bit within 8ms of the shutter. I'll have to crunch some numbers and do some real-world tests. But I just can't imagine this being too problematic.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Ok. *I'll get a spare sync cord and work on wired non-ttl high speed sync first. *From there getting a radio would just be a matter of implementation. Whether xbee would be too slow for this, idk, but a simple transceiver wouldn't be. Xbee just has a LOT of nice advantages, like self-discovery and modern name-space based communication. But for non-TTL, it's a matter of sending 1 bit within 8ms of the shutter. I'll have to crunch some numbers and do some real-world tests. But I just can't imagine this being too problematic.



very interested, good luck with this project


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

I'll start a new thread later today if this kind of speed is even possible. I have a test I can do now with just my arduino.


----------



## IByte (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I thought there was a receiver and transmitter module? But there isn't? If I bought any two PW modules, either can receive or transmit?
> 
> As for distance, line of sight communication is specified in kilometers on the xbee... so this won't be a problem, unless you're using a 15 gigawatt/second monolight powered by a portable nuclear reactor.



The PW 2 Flex are transceivers, and I cannot stress how great they are and the best investment I made. I could have bought the mini PW transmitters, but $200.00 vs $219.00 for better flexibility?  I went with the latter.


----------



## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Hmm. I'll have to get a TTL flash and experiment with xbee. If all that a pocket wizard is is a reliable radio, then I can guarantee that it's overpriced. WAY overpriced, actually.



Have you even bothered going to the Pocket Wizard website and reading the features they can provide? There are several different triggers allowing different features across the range of their brand.

Some will allow the use of the PW Hyper Sync mode which will allow you to adjust the timing of when the flash fires so that you can use a sync speed higher than your camera's advertised x sync. I can shoot at 1/320 with just a tiny band of black starting to show at the bottom of my 5D MKII images and even higher with just a small band taking up a 1/4 of the frame where as 1/320 without Hyper Sync would next me a mostly black image.

All but the Mini are transceivers and will allow you to transmit or receive. With 5 PII's, I can have one in my hand, one on camera, and one on three different flashes. This way I can fire my camera and flashes while sitting in a recline 1600' away and watching TV.

Certain models have an intervalometer which allows the trigger to fire at certain intervals.

They have an add on that will allow you to remotely control the power of an Alien Bee.

Some have up to 32 channels and 4 zones.

Some have rear curtain sync.

Some have the ability to be used as a repeater for distance.

Some have the ability to update firmware for new features or fixes.

Some can fire over 14 frames per second.

I can fire certain Sekonic, Dynalite, Pro Photo, and other brand equipment with a built in PW chip.

There's lots of features. If you want to educated yourself, just go visit their website. 

If you think you can build a trigger with better features, the ability to update, awesome range and reliability, and a program on the computer to adjust setting on the triggers, go for it. Plus, don't spend so much money on R&D that you won't be able to sell the products for significantly less, because Pocket Wizards are the industry standard and it's going to take a lot of hard work and an amazing trigger at a cheaper price to be able to change the minds of people who regular use Pocket Wizards because they work.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

i did my math wrong. 1/8000 is 1.25ms.

Still, even analog sample rate on the Arduino is 10K/second. I'm guessing the digital inputs are faster. I don't know about round trip...


----------



## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> Depends which PWs you are talking about.  The TL series (capable of TTL) do have separate transmitters and receivers.  But the 'regular' units are the 'Plus' series (currently the Plus III), which are Transceivers.



The FlexTT5 is a transceiver. The MiniTT1 is a transmitter. So the "TL" series (or the TT series as PW names them) are not just separate transmitters and receivers, just the MiniTT1.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> i did my math wrong. 1/8000 is 1.25ms.
> 
> Still, even analog sample rate on the Arduino is 10K/second. I'm guessing the digital inputs are faster. I don't know about round trip...



The difference PW compensates for is the shutter and light. Nothing to do with sample rate of the two units looking for each other.  Even a manual flash such as a manual non-TTL vivitar flash ON the camera or a studio light ON the sync chord the max speed without a calibration tool somewhere such as PW's software is 1/320th or "slightly" better if you're lucky before you get the curtain crap at the bottom of your pic.


----------



## table1349 (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I try to understand what's so great about pocket wizard, but I just can't figure it out. The way I see it, it's a proprietary wireless TTL protocol, which takes information between the camera and flash and sends it through a radio.
> 
> Is this seriously all it is? If so, anyone could set up an xbee radio to do that at a fraction of the cost.



Three simple words.   *They Freaking Work.   


*


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


> If you think you can build a trigger with better features


I don't know



> the ability to update


yes



> awesome range and reliability



Range is not a problem, reliability... ehh, idk. This really depends on my MCU.



> and a program on the computer to adjust setting on the triggers


yes. this would not be a problem.



> Plus, don't spend so much money on R&D that you won't be able to sell the products for significantly less



The project will be open sourced. I'm just not interested in manufacturing.

---

I've been to their website. I just can't make heads or tails of what they offer. They have SO many different options. I'll do more research in this area, but first I need to make sure that I can even communicate at the speed necessary.

As for it being "industry standard", I don't care about that so much beyond it being what I have to meet. 

The fact that they are using "channels" in the first place tells me that they're out dated. I think xbee permits like 128 namespaces (been a while since I read about xbee). As for distance, simple communication can be as much as 80km with the right power supply and line of sight. So I really don't think that's an issue.

Reliability is the only thing now, and until I do some tests I just won't know what the real-world feasibility is.

I'm not interested in selling this product. It will be open source, so if you want to sell it, go for it.


----------



## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

PLEASE SIGN ME UP for two sets of super-awesome, $100 xbee-Unpopular triggers! Hurry up with the production! I need something to back up my Pocket Wizards in case of a hurricane!!!


----------



## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

Derrel said:


> PLEASE SIGN ME UP for two sets of super-awesome, $100 xbee-Unpopular triggers! Hurry up with the production! I need something to back up my Pocket Wizards in case of a hurricane!!!



PIII's are only $130. They'd have to be $50 each for me to even think about it.

Of course, Google shows the xbees are about $25 a pop. That's doesn't leave a lot of money for...well...everything else.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > i did my math wrong. 1/8000 is 1.25ms.
> ...



No. The PW has to sample the camera-side trigger and return a flash-side trigger within 1.25us. That requires that the sample rate must be 8k/sec, and must process the information it receives within that period. It also must transfer the data within 1/8000 sec. This shouldn't be a problem. Even the arduinoscope project which has significantly more overhead than simply synchronizing fash and camera has a sample rate of 3k/sec, and this is analog. The arduino has an _analog_ sample rate of 10k/sec. I'm kind of new to microcontrollers, but I'm guessing that the digital inputs are read at clock speed (16mhz)?

The xbee also has a MCU built-in but I don't know much about them. For now I'll prototype on the arduino.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > PLEASE SIGN ME UP for two sets of super-awesome, $100 xbee-Unpopular triggers! Hurry up with the production! I need something to back up my Pocket Wizards in case of a hurricane!!!
> ...



What is the single most advanced PW unit? Is there a model that can do everything all the others can?


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...



No matter what your triggers do, you must have the software to calibrate the shutter and studio light to flash faster than the camera's manual flash sync.  No way around it. Whether a cable or a trigger, the camera and light are limited.  Put your flash in manual mode (mimick a studio light) and pop it on the camera and see max sync speed between shutter and light =)

All the BSEE and MSEE math we throw at it won't change the standard out of box sync speed


----------



## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



Probably the FlexTT5. That or the Multi Max. The Multi Max does not do TTL, but has a good amount of features. One of the ones listed is a noise sniffer.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

+1  FlexTT5

Multi max controls up to 4 "groups" of PWs, another feature unit


----------



## 12sndsgood (Oct 23, 2012)

if you are doing this, keep track of your time to see how much it actually does cost you to make.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

^^ I really have no interest in that. Seriously. Even if I were interested in selling it, it's a dumb way to look at it from an individual developer's POV. If you have a team of engineers to pay, that's one thing, but if it's just me then I can view my own time spent as investment-hours, not paid-hours.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

it will be a while before I can snoop around at what the camera and flash are saying to one another. But I know I can get the timing worked out such that I can use a remote to emulate Hypersync. It seems that all that is involved here is a matter of timing. So if I press one button, I can have the flash trigger, wait a period of time, and have the camera's shutter release.

Getting it to work with the TTL interface is just a matter of figuring out what the camera is saying to the flash when you press the release button. That's not too difficult. Just get a TTL flash and an off-camera cable, snip the cable in half, intercept using a logic analyzer, and send the signal on it's way to the flash.

On a side note, Nikon's iTTL is really straightforward.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ^^ I really have no interest in that. Seriously. Even if I were interested in selling it, it's a dumb way to look at it from an individual developer's POV. If you have a team of engineers to pay, that's one thing, but if it's just me then I can view my own time spent as investment-hours, not paid-hours.



So do you not value your time? you said you can do it cheaper, well working for free im sure many people could make a lot of things when they only factor in parts. i dont think its a dumb way of thinking it at all.  time is money wether your paying an engineer or paying yourself. 

if i can work at a job and pay for an item by working 5 hours. that to me is better then building an item myself that takes me 20 hours. if that's the case i should have just worked at my main job for 20 hours and i could have just bought 4 of the item and been well ahead. too many people underestimate there own personal time.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

I'd be willing to work for free on R&D if I knew that it would mean I can be competitive later on.

If you're talking about assembly, that's a different matter entirely.

but I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion is. i already said the project will be open source and I have no interest in manufacturing. I don't know the first thing about manufacturing, and I really am not interested in the liability involved. All I know is that using retail parts and custom software, it looks like I can build a radio trigger that has better functionality than PW.

I don't have hundreds of dollars lying around to buy a PW radio, time is another matter. In other words: it's a hobby.


----------



## jake337 (Oct 23, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > ^^ I really have no interest in that. Seriously. Even if I were interested in selling it, it's a dumb way to look at it from an individual developer's POV. If you have a team of engineers to pay, that's one thing, but if it's just me then I can view my own time spent as investment-hours, not paid-hours.
> ...




It seems to me he is just doing this because he enjoys it. If he is doing this during his off time from work, then it is irrelevant how long it takes.


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 23, 2012)

Its a very interesting project indeed, for him to take on the best of the best!


----------



## table1349 (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



That would probably be the PW Flash-O-Matic 9000.  It slices, it dices, it makes pretty fruit salads while you take pictures all for the low price of $19.95.  If you act now you will,get not one, but two complete sets.  Just pay separate shipping and handling.


Seriously there is no one does it all model.  Each is designed for a specific task.  That's why they freaking work.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Oct 23, 2012)

jake337 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...



well when you say you can build something cheaper, but then arn't going to figure in actual costs (time) then are you building it cheaper?  i'm sure if pocketwizards took out all the time they spent on R&D and build costs there product would be 25% of the cost. 


unpopular. i know you dont intend to market this or sell it or any of that. my point was just about you saying you can build it cheaper but not figuring in your build time and r&D etc.   

I guess I just have a diffrent price on my time, I have friends and family and bills to pay so i place a high value on my time.


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Yeah. But i am not getting paid to tinker with micro controllers. If I were, then I could have bought a pocket wizard the first day I got my Arduino!

So yes. *I* can build a radio for less than PocketWizard can because, unlike myself THEY ARE being paid to tinker with micro controllers; they have engineers with degrees which makes their time more valuable than mine.

I mean, how much is my amateur engineering time worth, anyway? It's worth a heck of a lot less than my professional graphic design time.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Yeah. But i am not getting paid to tinker with micro controllers. If I were, then I could have bought a pocket wizard the first day I got my Arduino!
> 
> So yes. *I* can build a radio for less than PocketWizard can because, unlike myself THEY ARE being paid to tinker with micro controllers; they have engineers with degrees which makes their time more valuable than mine.
> 
> I mean, how much is my amateur engineering time worth, anyway? It's worth a heck of a lot less than my professional graphic design time.




well we won't know unless you assign yourself a worth and track your time  Minimum wage I think is $7.25 figuring $130 for one, that gives you around 19 hours without adding in any material costs. on your mark, get set, go!


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

well, when my spare time makes me $7.25/hour, i'll be sure to pick up some pocket wizards.


----------



## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Yeah. But i am not getting paid to tinker with micro controllers. If I were, then I could have bought a pocket wizard the first day I got my Arduino!
> 
> So yes. *I* can build a radio for less than PocketWizard can because, unlike myself THEY ARE being paid to tinker with micro controllers; they have engineers with degrees which makes their time more valuable than mine.
> 
> I mean, how much is my amateur engineering time worth, anyway? It's worth a heck of a lot less than my professional *graphic design time.*


*
*

Ohhhhhh! Ahhhhh!   Can you make me a watermark???


----------



## jake337 (Oct 23, 2012)

Derrel said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. But i am not getting paid to tinker with micro controllers. If I were, then I could have bought a pocket wizard the first day I got my Arduino!
> ...




Only in his spare time @ 7.25/hour.....


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

being that I have a ton of spare time, i'd say that Derrel is getting one hell of a deal!


----------



## jake337 (Oct 23, 2012)

unpopular said:


> being that I have a ton of spare time, i'd say that Derrel is getting one hell of a deal!




Stretch it out to about 2 hours per letter!


----------



## unpopular (Oct 23, 2012)

Well, I do create custom fonts for every project... in lead.


----------



## Buckster (Oct 23, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Ohhhhhh! Ahhhhh!   Can you make me a watermark???


Abra Cadabra!  POOF!!!  You're a watermark!!!  :mrgreen:


----------

