# Do I Need A LIght Meter?



## smoke665

Relatively new to the use of studio lights, having avoided them in the past.  Just starting to explore this area, using the camera meter, and "trial and error".  I've seen some inexpensive analog meters, and a Shepard that measures both incident and reflected (less than $20). Would something like this be beneficial for a beginner trying to learn, or should I just save my money and go with a better one later?


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## Gary A.

I'm not a studio guy, but the onboard light meter of modern digital cameras are very good. If you're going for reflective, I think your camera would be far superior to a cheap handheld meter.  If you want incident and flash readings, that is the domain of a handheld meter.  Dedicated flash meter are pretty inexpensive, if you desire an incident reading, get a gray card (seriously). 

I'd wait until you feel a passion for studio work before making a serious investment into a 'good' handheld meter. For reflective readings, a handheld will make your life easier, but would not be more accurate than your camera meter.  (The more expensive handhelds have memories and trick stuff for different readings, but nothing pen and paper couldn't replicate.  There are free/cheap light meter apps for smart phones.)


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## tirediron

You don't need a flash meter, no.  Especially with the ability to review your shots on the rear LCD, but it makes learning a lot easier IMO.  There are lots of good meters cheaply available on eBay & Craig's List.  The Minolta Flash III, IV, and V are excellent choices.


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## astroNikon

I have an older Minolta IV lightmeter.  fyi, this only goes down to ISO 200, so I always use ISO 200 as a base.

With digital cameras though, I've just put myself in the frame for a studio shot and set up the camera & lights that way. It's quick and easy.  And once you get used to your lights and style you just set them up the same way each time.

If you get into dramatic lighting it comes in handy each time without taking a shot.
But if you do it enough you start correlating your camera settings with the flash output before doing anything for a studio setup.


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## smoke665

Gary A. said:


> There are free/cheap light meter apps for smart phones.)



I have a meter app now on my phone that works great for ambient light, but it won't lock on flash reading. Are there some out there that will work for flash?


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## astroNikon

I tried the iPhone variants before. None of them really worked at all for flash except for a few, such as this one
Lumu Power Turns the iPhone Into a Light, Flash, and Color Temperature Meter

but at those prices, the Minolta IV I bought was much cheaper, and I can leave it with my flash gear, and put it around my neck with a lanard and not worry about it being an expensive phone too.  There are some things where I don't want to use my phone for.


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## MSnowy

It might help some plus you'll look cool the people in the YouTube videos


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## Braineack

I don't like doing flash work without one, at least to get the main initially.   although, ive used my light enough, that i know at f/11, iso 100, and 1/125 sec, that ill probably want my main at power 5-5.25 for a typical shot.   throw in my light meter, and it takes another few moments to be right on the money without fussing around.


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## smoke665

I like the simplicity of the Shepard FM800. Fire the flash, count the lights, spin the dial and get the exposure. Not much to learn or think about - good for this old mind. Any experience with it?


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## 480sparky

smoke665 said:


> I like the simplicity of the Shepard FM800. Fire the flash, count the lights, spin the dial and get the exposure. Not much to learn or think about - good for this old mind. Any experience with it?



Huh?  Sounds way more complicated than a meter that just tells you the exposure from the git-go.  Fire the flash, and look at the aperture readout.


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## astroNikon

smoke665 said:


> I like the simplicity of the Shepard FM800. Fire the flash, count the lights, spin the dial and get the exposure. Not much to learn or think about - good for this old mind. Any experience with it?


That's one of those really old flash meters ...


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## Derrel

As stated, a flash meter is nice but not totally essential these days. The meter is nice for precision, and for establishing complex ratios with three or four lights down to the tenth of an f/stop, without even shooting a single frame. The Shepard brand has always been cheap, and the klunky scale and lights system is very 1940's, and predates microprocessor, direct-readout technology, and might not have the 1/10-stop precision we expect in a Sekonic meter. But for $20, why not?


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## tirediron

astroNikon said:


> I have an older Minolta IV lightmeter.  fyi, this only goes down to ISO 200


Whatchou' talkin' 'bout Willis????  This meter goes down to ISO *8*!


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## smoke665

Derrel said:


> But for $20, why not?



So for about the price of a trip to Mickey D's for two, I could get a meter, that like the meal, may not be the best, but fills an empty stomach?


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## astroNikon

tirediron said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an older Minolta IV lightmeter.  fyi, this only goes down to ISO 200
> 
> 
> 
> Whatchou' talkin' 'bout Willis????  This meter goes down to ISO *8*!
Click to expand...

You're right.  But the specs have it down to 3.  Thinking back now I was using a D700 which only went down to 200 ISO and I guess I just stuck with 200 since.


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## fmw

I sold my flash meter when I switched from film to digital.  Being able to see an image right after exposure is better than having a suggested exposure.  I do like having an incident meter in my bag for difficult metering situations.  I have a handheld Gossen meter that does a great job both with incident and reflected readings.  Most of the time the camera meter is more than adequate.


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## Derrel

O


smoke665 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> But for $20, why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for about the price of a trip to Mickey D's for two, I could get a meter, that like the meal, may not be the best, but fills an empty stomach?
Click to expand...


Dizzz'actly.


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## smoke665

Haven't found a Flash Meter App, but came across this little free app for android. Keylight Pro Keylight PRO 2.0 - Android Apps on Google Play You enter your strobe settings and it gives you Optimum Distance, Aperture, Power, ISO, and Falloff. Allows you to change a setting and automatically recalculates the others. For those that know this stuff by heart, it might not be much help, but for those less knowledgeable, it might be helpful.


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## tirediron

fmw said:


> I sold my flash meter when I switched from film to digital.  Being able to see an image right after exposure is better than having a suggested exposure.  I do like having an incident meter in my bag for difficult metering situations.  I have a handheld Gossen meter that does a great job both with incident and reflected readings.  Most of the time the camera meter is more than adequate.


The problem with this is maintaining consistency... for instance when I do my Veteran's Portraits.  I have a couple of lighting scenarios that I always shoot, and they have set ratios to ensure consistency through the body of work.  If you're using a single light, or just shooting random subjects, that will work, but honestly?  I think it's much easier to be >this< close before I even pick up the camera.  Really, all the rear LCD does is replace the Polaroid back of the film days...


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## Derrel

smoke said:
			
		

> . Free app for android. Keylight Pro Keylight PRO 2.0 - Android Apps on Google Play .



Neat. I just downloaded and installed it. A very advanced numerical analysis tool for specific flash units. Not a meter, but in some ways, more useful as a "predictor" tool. Thanks!


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## smoke665

@tirediron It seems I remember a thread from a few months back that the LCD histogram and even the image is a JPEG constructed by the camera using the manufacturer's proprietary processing, and may or may not be the same as the raw histogram. So while I'm sure that experience would go a long way toward determining a correct exposure from looking at the LCD, wouldn't those of us "less knowledgeable" still be somewhat guessing blind?

@Derrel I thought the app looked decent. Glad that someone more knowledgeable confirmed it!


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## tirediron

I find the "accuracy" of the rear LCD varies from body to body, even in the same model line, and it also depends on what you're doing with the images:  Print, digital display, etc...  I think whether or not you really "need" a flash meter depends on how picky you are about things like lighting ratios.  I use a meter for every flash exposure, but then I'm also incredibly anal; does it make my images better?  I don't know to be honest, but it's how I learned and it works for me.


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## Derrel

Camera histograms are based off of a .JPG image, and not the raw data, so properly placing the highligt tone is not as simple as it might seem. Sekonic has an advanced optional kit for their very highest end meter, that can be tested and configured for different cameras with different DR capabilities. Very sophisticated.

The big difference in 2016 is that instead of color slide film with 6- or 7-EV total DR that needs to be separated or scanned, we now have 12,13,14,14.7 EV, and modern software to adjust the exposure and processing,so exposure is not quite so open to catastrophic errors as it was even 20 years ago. Modern digital highlight and shadow placement is much more correctable and shift-able than ever before. So, the flash meter has lost its absolutely critical status, for many people.


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## smoke665

Derrel said:


> so properly placing the highligt tone is not as simple as it might seem.



I've found this to be the case with my K3II. Generally the shadows are close to what I see on the LCD histogram, but the highlights aren't. Strangely that wasn't the case on a previous K30 model.


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## MSnowy

smoke665 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> But for $20, why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for about the price of a trip to Mickey D's for two, I could get a meter, that like the meal, may not be the best, but fills an empty stomach?
Click to expand...

 
For the price of two going out to dinner you can get one of these used on ebay SEKONIC L-358 Flash Master METER L358  | eBay


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## smoke665

Recently went with Alienbees, and discovered this on the Paul C. Buff website. Paul C. Buff - CyberSync Cyber Commander  For about the price of a decent meter, their CyberSync Commander, not only works as a trigger, but allows remote adjustment, and functions as a meter for individual or groups of lights. Would this be a good choice????


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## smoke665

MSnowy said:


> For the price of two going out to dinner



You must have a hearty appetite or they charge more where you live. We could go out twice, maybe three times for that here!!!


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## MSnowy

smoke665 said:


> MSnowy said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the price of two going out to dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You must have a hearty appetite or they charge more where you live. We could go out twice, maybe three times for that here!!!
Click to expand...


Ha ha Most nights that's the bar tab


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## fmw

tirediron said:


> I find the "accuracy" of the rear LCD varies from body to body, even in the same model line, and it also depends on what you're doing with the images:  Print, digital display, etc...  I think whether or not you really "need" a flash meter depends on how picky you are about things like lighting ratios.  I use a meter for every flash exposure, but then I'm also incredibly anal; does it make my images better?  I don't know to be honest, but it's how I learned and it works for me.



I agree.  That is why I use a 25" computer monitor.  It is an affordable and useful piece of gear for the studio.


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## Derrel

Buff's CyberCommander sounds good. The ability to meter flash pops, and to remotely command flash units would be nice. I was actually unaware that their Cyber system could function as a flash meter. 
     Is it "worth it"? I guess that depends on both the user and the need for speed and convenience, and budget. Buff pioneered phone-cable-wired monolight adjustment maybe 25  years ago...they have vast experience in this area. Now, it is wireless and electronic AND they have added metering. Next up: built-in toaster.


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## Derrel

Different sensors and processing of the in-camera .JPG images, maybe? In the old days, 7 to 8 stops' worth of total dynamic range meant that the highlight tone placement on a color positive image was not that far above the mid-tone, and the detail-free shadows were not very far below the mid tones.

The "new" Exmor gen Sony-made sensor tech brought with it an amazing shift in how much a BLACK shadow could be "lifted" in post.Pentax was an early adopter of Sony sensors.


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## lance70

Yes


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## Braineack

Derrel said:


> The "new" Exmor gen Sony-made sensor tech brought with it an amazing shift in how much a BLACK shadow could be "lifted" in post.Pentax was an early adopter of Sony sensors.



underexpose by 4 stops?







dont even worry:


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## Derrel

As per Brsineack's above example photo, he shows us that today's concept of exposure is now somewhat relative. In the days of color slide film, an exposure four EV under mid-tone would be mostly useless. But now with the new Sony-made sensors, even a severely underexposed frame can be rescued, often with pretty decent quality as the final result. This is a great example of why a flash meter is no longer an absolute necessity.


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## smoke665

Derrel said:


> smoke said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Free app for android. Keylight Pro Keylight PRO 2.0 - Android Apps on Google Play .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neat. I just downloaded and installed it. A very advanced numerical analysis tool for specific flash units. Not a meter, but in some ways, more useful as a "predictor" tool. Thanks!
Click to expand...


Got a chance to try this last night with the new AB's. Wow, super fast setup once I entered the light information in the "gear bag". First test shot on the main light was within +1 stop.  Fine tuned the settings and it was spot on afterwards.


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## Derrel

I played around a little bit with Keylight Pro 2.0 this evening. Basically the app is a very sophisticated guide number computer that works on Android. According to Keylight's data the Einstein 640 monolight at full power with a Buff foldable softbox has a guide number of about 102. According to one of my Seedotron power packs at 100 watt seconds with a 65-degree metal reflector, the guide number is 105. I combined these two data points into one setting using the app and took a couple screencaps.


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## smoke665

@Derrel did you have a chance to determine the accuracy of the calculated aperture, ISO, distance or fall off?


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## Derrel

smoke665 said:


> @Derrel did you have a chance to determine the accuracy of the calculated aperture, ISO, distance or fall off?



I don't own an Einstein monolights,but I went to Buff's site and their Expected Output chart confirms by actual meter reading the 102 GN with their softboxes. The Speedotron D402 GN figures are reliable, dating back to the era before most people owned a flash meter, and actually relied on the GN method.

  The falloff computing that the app offers is something I have never seen offered before: the power of Android computing.

     Buff's web page, Expected Output confirms by actual meter readings the GN of the app. What I really wanted to know was the relative true power of the Einstein 640. When comparing two different flash units, the beam spread of the light is a critical factor. Buff data days the AB B1600 at Full power and their Einstein E640 at full power are
640 - 660 watt seconds,
With a Guide Number of 155 using their standard 7-inch 80 degree reflector. What the older Speedotron power pack lists as a GN of 150 is an output level of 200 Watt-seconds using the D402 power pack and that system's 65 degree beam spread reflector.

When comparing flash units, product model numbers are not very useful. For example the Alien Bee B1600 model and the Einstein 640 are both listed as an actual 640 - 660 watt seconds of output. With their standard 7 inch 80 degree reflector the Guide Number is 155, but with the Speedo D402 ( 400 W-sec, 4- outlet) pack set at 1/2 power with a 65-degree reflector the Guide Number is 150. As one can see we have flash units labeled 1600, 640, and basically 200, all creating the same Guide Number. With different beam spread angles.

The ability to choose from a list of flash units, or to enter in revised or modified guide numbers is very useful. For example switching from the 7 to the 8.5 inch, 45 degree high output reflector in the Alien Bee Line, boosts the guide number by 1 full EV.


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