# Why ask for CC?



## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 15, 2007)

Constructive (corrective) Criticism/Critque is a great thing. Why ask for it, if you don't want it? There should be a "suck it up" rule.


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## cameramike (Dec 15, 2007)

well, theres CC and then theres being down right rude and obnoxious. basically if you say why dont like it, what could of been done differently and give good reasoning its useful and good. if you just say "it sucks i hate it" and walk away then it is just a pointless obnoxious comment.


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## DSLR noob (Dec 16, 2007)

if you post anyhting on the internet you have to be willing to take  aTON of abuse, CC or not. PERIOD. If not, don't post, just browse.


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## kundalini (Dec 16, 2007)

Different strokes for different folks.  It&#8217;s like the old saying, don&#8217;t ask if you don&#8217;t want to know the answer&#8230;or&#8230;ask me no questions and I&#8217;ll tell you no lies.  Jack Nicholson said it best in the film &#8220;A Few Good Men&#8221;, you can&#8217;t handle the truth.

Until your skills are developed, you should expect the rough patches.

_(I put in a nice word for you Mrsforeman1 somewhere tonight, can&#8217;t remember the thread&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.just in case you were George&#8217;s missus)_


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Agreed...and, it doesn't help to get all hurt and make excuses for the same issues that you wanted the critique to correct. That's why I said "suck it up". And when you post on the Professional Board people are to assume that you're professional and may critique you as such.


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Thanks Kundalini:hug::


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## Sideburns (Dec 16, 2007)

well when I say C&C, I mean CONSTRUCTIVE.  If you don't say it nicely...then you shouldn't be posting...
There's no reason, even if it's horrible, to say anything mean about a picture.  Suggest improvements....or give an honest opinion gently...don't say "wow...worst picture I've ever seen...what were you thinking?"
and then just leave.


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## kundalini (Dec 16, 2007)

^^agreed (Mrsforeman1). I think a lot of embarrasment and embelishment could be avoided if newbies bothered to review the guidelines for the different forums.


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## kundalini (Dec 16, 2007)

Mrsforeman1 said:


> Thanks Kundalini:hug::


 
My pleasure.


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## DSLR noob (Dec 16, 2007)

Sideburns said:


> well when I say C&C, I mean CONSTRUCTIVE.  If you don't say it nicely...then you shouldn't be posting...
> There's no reason, even if it's horrible, to say anything mean about a picture.  Suggest improvements....or give an honest opinion gently...don't say "wow...worst picture I've ever seen...what were you thinking?"
> and then just leave.



once again, it's the internet, you don't even have to have a reason to say soemthnig negstive about a photo. Even if you like ti and you're jealous, you can tear it to shreds, if it's the internet, and you put out any information onto it, you should be able to hanlde the worst case scenario. If you post a picture, you have to be able to take abuse of that picture, at the cost of wanting praise.

I don't condone tearing people up unless you feel that it's honest, but still, people need to be touch on the web.


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## Josh66 (Dec 16, 2007)

I have yet to post a picture on here, but when I do - I want MaxBloom-esq critique on it.

If I thought the picture was crap, I wouldn't have posted it.  Since I think it's a good picture, I'm posting it to either (1) show it off, or (2) find out how I can make it better.  I can't find out how to make it better if nobody tells me whats wrong with it.

I don't really expect people to tell me _how_ to make it better (but it's a plus if they do), I think they expect me to know how to fix it - I just need to know what to fix.

If you don't know how to fix it after people tell you what needs fixing, do some research on it, search the forums here, or start a new thread if you can't find out what you want to know.

For example, if someone says that a picture is too soft, they probably expect the poster to know what that means without having to explain what "soft" and "sharp" mean.


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

Not everyone can handle direct or bold critique easily.

And what some call honest, others consider rude.

I however think, whenever someone gives a reason why he does not like somone's work, then this is valuable input. Some people do not see this though.


within the last 12 hours on this forum, I once again learned that i should not comment or give C6C in the pro-portrait section of this forum, or the website section. honesty often seems not appreciatred there


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

O|||||||O said:


> I don't really expect people to tell me _how_ to make it better (but it's a plus if they do), I think they expect me to know how to fix it - I just need to know what to fix.



I think if you ask for help, it will certainly be given on this forum though! 

Also if you do not know the terms, someone will explain them to you ... ok, some may grunt while doing so 

I think this is a very helpful and friendly forum, and if some people weren't so self-centred and over-sensitive when it comes to critizism regarding their own work, then they could learn much more on here  ... I say when posting images one should be _humble _and expect the worst, and be happy if yor receive the best.


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

There is also an element of misinturpritation (primarily with uber noobs and/or stupids) thinking that CC translates to something like Comments and Criticism and done almost as a manner of "just say what ever I Just wan't to know you looked" not realizing what a true critqueis. they then feel slapped in the face when they get honest standpoints. That is why I am a firm believer in people should read a lot of a forum before posting anything, thet would take care of that little misconception.

How ever in the more common field, Often times people expect a certain amount of respect or friendlyness and/or full of themselves and don't believe they are flawed. When they realize just what they got into start calling everything rude.


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## Josh66 (Dec 16, 2007)

Alex_B said:


> [...] I think this is a very helpful and friendly forum [...]


I agree 100% on that.  I'm a member at a handful of photography forums, and this is by far the best.  This forum has more knowledgeable photographers, who are more than happy to give advise than any of the others I am a member at.


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## Arch (Dec 16, 2007)

On some forums, despite what the subject of the forum is about you will get the 'if you post you should be able to take whatever anyone says to you'.... type philosophy.

Well.... not here.

As this forum is privately owned... we have rules and guidlines... and this forum is for beginners as well as pro's. That means if for example a noobie is posting and is seen to be unnecessarily 'picked on' we will give warnings to those who are not giving reason behind their c&c or just being rude. If those people continue to be unhelpful in the same way they will be banned.

So its best really to speak to people (no matter what the skill level) as you would like to be spoke to.... the cocky attitude to c&c is likely to get you banned here.


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

Archangel said:


> So its best really to speak to people (no matter what the skill level) as you would like to be spoke to.... the cocky attitude to c&c is likely to get you banned here.




Well, but If I see this correctly, this was not what this thread was really about [Edit: ok, i re-read, and partially this is what it is about] ... of course from time to time there are really rude comments, here all you said applies.

Just I feel a bit unwilling to give further critique in a certain sub-section of the forum, where some people apparently cannot take it too well. But this is my problem and I will not rant further 

Strange enough, that Landscape&nature and General and similar sub-sections of the forum are much more relaxed here.


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## Arch (Dec 16, 2007)

yea alex it can of course work both ways... if you offer helpful c&c and the poster not only cant seem to take any helpful comments on board and resorts to  offensive replies then they will be the ones facing the warnings etc...

The best thing to do tho if someone doesnt seem to want even helpful c&c is to not go to any more of thier posts... even put them on your ignore list if you feel that strongly about them.


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Say what you will...
But, if the title of a sub-section is "Professional Portrait and Wedding Photogragraphy" am I to assume that is what it means?
 I mean if you don't even know the simple terms and the "very" basics like what shutter speed is, come on?
 And when someone tells you to adjust your Aperture or your SS or your DOF or your exposure...should they have to tell you how? I mean since you're a pro and all. 

(this is not geared toward anyone particular)


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

Mrsforeman1 said:


> Say what you will...
> But, if the title of a sub-section is "Professional Portrait and Wedding Photogragraphy" am I to assume that is what it means?
> I mean if you don't even know the simple terms and the "very" basics like what shutter speed is, come on?
> And when someone tells you to adjust your Aperture or your SS or your DOF or your exposure...should they have to tell you how? I mean since you're a pro and all.
> ...



Well, the tearm CC spans over the entire forum, It's not restricted to the "Professional Portrait and Wedding Photogragraphy" section of the forum, That sub section is there for Professional Photographers, contrary to popular belief in order to be professional you get paid for your work not how well you know your work. So naturally sad as it may sound you will find that even the most basic of tearms may elude even a professional, As long as they are getting paid for their services they are by technicality professional.

Personally I feel inexperianced photographers should stay out of there untill they have some real experiance under their belt, but there is no real way to controll that really.


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Oh..okay.
I'm cool with that.
If you like it...I love it. 
(So to speak)


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm not naming any names, but the "professional" section is rife with utter mediocrity and a lot of people who, when confronted with that, respond only by saying things to the effect of "how many family portraits are _you_ getting paid for?" Look, I'm sorry that the photos you took of someone's daughter for a $30 sitting fee plus however much for the miserably post-processed prints that you aren't even going to take to a respectable printer, look like ****. News-Flash: the world is full of mediocre "professionals." You think _I'm_ being rude? You've got a lot of nerve to pass off that crap as good work and then get defensive and self-righteous when someone points out poor post-processing, a lack of sharpness, misplaced focus, splotchy shadows on faces, blown out areas...sometimes all of the above.

As for CC elsewhere, unless you're familiar with a particular person whose work you're critiquing, you can never be sure how they're going to react. So let's all err on the side of caution and give them a big fat ****ing hug while we dance around the fact that the image is lacking in substance, shows very poor technical execution, or both. Screw that. Go join a Care Bears forum if that's your M.O. I get pissed off because most of the bad work posted here, even some in the professional forum, makes very clear that the photographer literally has very little understanding of what they're doing. I've said it a thousand times before...how dare you not invest any time and energy into learning your art/craft and then get offended about your own ignorance manifesting itself as a failed photograph? People who seem to have an idea of what they're doing, I tend to handle on a case-by-case basis. 

And half of you who aren't noobs are part and ****ing parcel to their corruption. Stop recommending band-aid solutions in photoshop. My head tries to explode every time I see someone recommend that a crop be done in PP instead of in-camera, or that adjustment layers be used to compensate for bad exposure.


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> I'm not naming any names, but the "professional" section is rife with utter mediocrity and a lot of people who, when confronted with that, respond only by saying things to the effect of "how many family portraits are _you_ getting paid for?" Look, I'm sorry that the photos you took of someone's daughter for a $30 sitting fee plus however much for the miserably post-processed prints that you aren't even going to take to a respectable printer, look like ****. News-Flash: the world is full of mediocre "professionals." You think _I'm_ being rude? You've got a lot of nerve to pass off that crap as good work and then get defensive and self-righteous when someone points out poor post-processing, a lack of sharpness, misplaced focus, splotchy shadows on faces, blown out areas...sometimes all of the above.
> 
> As for CC elsewhere, unless you're familiar with a particular person whose work you're critiquing, you can never be sure how they're going to react. So let's all err on the side of caution and give them a big fat ****ing hug while we dance around the fact that the image is lacking in substance, shows very poor technical execution, or both. Screw that. Go join a Care Bears forum if that's your M.O. I get pissed off because most of the bad work posted here, even some in the professional forum, makes very clear that the photographer literally has very little understanding of what they're doing. I've said it a thousand times before...how dare you not invest any time and energy into learning your art/craft and then get offended about your own ignorance manifesting itself as a failed photograph? People who seem to have an idea of what they're doing, I tend to handle on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> And half of you who aren't noobs are part and ****ing parcel to their corruption. Stop recommending band-aid solutions in photoshop. My head tries to explode every time I see someone recommend that a crop be done in PP instead of in-camera, or that adjustment layers be used to compensate for bad exposure.



I'm sorry Max, I agree completely with that, every bit of it, but wow was that stiff.


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## Chris of Arabia (Dec 16, 2007)

Max tends to call a spade 'a spade' by the way. That's why we love to have him round here (some days anyway ). He does have several points worth making in there though, as blunt as they translate on screen.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

i started reading max post and got bored    enough said


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> i started reading max post and got bored    enough said



I read it all the way threw....couldn't stop


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Oh my goodness.

Well....I never!

(But, I'm glad Max did.)


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

*waits for the haters*


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## Teresa (Dec 16, 2007)

okay people i know you are talking about me so just get over yourselves!
enough said


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Teresa said:


> okay people i know you are talking about me so just get over yourselves!
> enough said



I am? I don't even know that I've seen you work. I guess I should go see what all the fuss is about.

Edit: Oh, now I see the threads. Hadn't even looked at them before I wrote the above diatribe.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

i stopped reading cause its like he copying it from a book.

cause if you read all his posts he does repeat himself


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> cause if you read all his posts he does repeat himself



Because these problems are widespread and chronic.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

:heart::heart:


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> :heart::heart:



Oh, sorry. Here you go:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/widespread

and

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/chronic

Hope that helps.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> Oh, sorry. Here you go:
> 
> http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/widespread
> 
> ...


 


its called taking the piss

sorry you americans dont get humour do ya


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

m1a1fan said:


> Getting a correct exposure in camera? In Camera? Come on, everybody knows you don't have to do that anymore :er:.
> 
> That's exactly why I don't post many images here. I'm still learning how to do just that. The way I see it is if I wouldn't print it for myself then there is no need to ask for CC to begin with.



Try posting in the Technical Assistance section of the critique forum if you have problems regarding exposure in-camera. There's less room there for blanket statements.


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## JC1220 (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> As for CC elsewhere, unless you're familiar with a particular person whose work you're critiquing, you can never be sure how they're going to react. So let's all err on the side of caution and give them a big fat ****ing hug while we dance around the fact that the image is lacking in substance, shows very poor technical execution, or both. Screw that. Go join a Care Bears forum if that's your M.O. I get pissed off because most of the bad work posted here, even some in the professional forum, makes very clear that the photographer literally has very little understanding of what they're doing. I've said it a thousand times before...how dare you not invest any time and energy into learning your art/craft and then get offended about your own ignorance manifesting itself as a failed photograph? People who seem to have an idea of what they're doing, I tend to handle on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> And half of you who aren't noobs are part and ****ing parcel to their corruption. Stop recommending band-aid solutions in photoshop. My head tries to explode every time I see someone recommend that a crop be done in PP instead of in-camera, or that adjustment layers be used to compensate for bad exposure.


 
What he said may be stiff but he is spot on, lack of understanding of the history of photography down to the technical is the bane along with just plain carelessness. There was a recent post by a THIRD YEAR PHOTOGRAPHY student who had no idea how to control contrast or develop for the particular affect they were looking for. What the hell is being taught these days in college other than everything you do is perfect even if it sucks and how to crap happy puppys out yer ass.

Personally, I don't participate in online CC's, you need to have the actual work in hand and have a good amount of time to make comments that are useful. Even when I am shown work by others, unless you have been a student of mine or I have known your work for a while, I rarely comment other than a sincere thank you. CC's are done by teachers and curators.


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## Arch (Dec 16, 2007)

well we all know there is trying to be truthful with a good explination and attepting to sound truthful and being a jerk about it. Max knows his past with the forum and should know now when to stop and when to start becoming constructive. This can go either way at any given time... so i'd recomend that people do not try and emulate this kind of attitude unless they want to walk the fine line of being wanted on a forum and being banned.

We love all our members untill they act like a jerk :heart:.... :mrgreen:


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

the fact that max is still here must mean 'anything goes'

ive seen him in action and he would of been banned on other sites


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

Archangel said:


> well we all know there is trying to be truthful with a good explination and attepting to sound truthful and being a jerk about it. Max knows his past with the forum and should know now when to stop and when to start becoming constructive. This can go either way at any given time... so i'd recomend that people do not try and emulate this kind of attitude unless they want to walk the fine line of being wanted on a forum and being banned.
> 
> We love all our members untill they act like a jerk :heart:.... :mrgreen:



There are not many who can walk that fine line, It's not really a smart move to attempt to emulate untill you have been around for a wile and have a good Idea of the people around you.


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Archangel said:


> well we all know there is trying to be truthful with a good explination and attepting to sound truthful and being a jerk about it. Max knows his past with the forum and should know now when to stop and when to start becoming constructive. This can go either way at any given time... so i'd recomend that people do not try and emulate this kind of attitude unless they want to walk the fine line of being wanted on a forum and being banned.
> 
> We love all our members untill they act like a jerk :heart:.... :mrgreen:



Oh, Archangel...jerk is such a subjective term :hugs: . For the record, I've only been banned once and that was for accusing a mod of giving an unhelpful critique. I'm equal-opportunity! "Attitude" and constructive are not mutually exclusive.


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## Teresa (Dec 16, 2007)

so far this is the criticism NOT CRITIQUE that i have gotten so far:

Allsmiles: these are cheesy and not at all professional 

The Phototron:it's just that they're not well done

Emogirlersonally,i think you are trying to be something you are not

there is some critique that could've been stated a bit nicer here and there but it is not critique when people say these things to you when you are just starting out and learning


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

max were you banned from this site and let back in again or was it another site?


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Teresa said:


> so far this is the criticism NOT CRITIQUE that i have gotten so far:
> 
> Allsmiles: these are cheesy and not at all professional
> 
> ...



Were you paid for the photos in those two threads?


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> max were you banned from this site and let back in again or was it another site?



I'm not at liberty to comment on that.


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## Teresa (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> Were you paid for the photos in those two threads?


 

i was paid $45 for the childrens christmas shoot and i was not paid for the maternity, newborn or my family shoot...well okay the newborn shoot i was paid $20 but that was only for prints


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## Battou (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> the fact that max is still here must mean 'anything goes'
> 
> ive seen him in action and he would of been banned on other sites



I've been on the receiving end on one of his absolutely brutal comments, but it needed to be said, the image sucked because I rushed it. His comment mad me look at it differently and find the error my self. Some times such brutal honesty can be rather educational and really the only way to say any thing useful.

But I have also received from him a comment on the polar opposite end of the spectrum so....


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> I'm not at liberty to comment on that.


 

why not did you get special treatment


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Teresa said:


> i was paid $45 for the childrens christmas shoot and i was not paid for the maternity, newborn or my family shoot...well okay the newborn shoot i was paid $20 but that was only for prints



As I mentioned above, I had not seen those two threads before I wrote my initial response to this thread.

Look, I understand you are a beginner. That's great. I hope you grow into an amazing photographer. The world could always use another one. But you are not "good enough" as you put it, to be charging for your work. Not because you can't produce work that your clients like, but because you're intrinsically unreliable until you have a good measure of control over your shots. The fact, as you mentioned, that you don't/didn't know what aperture is, is evidence of that.


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## Chris of Arabia (Dec 16, 2007)

Gagging order


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Chris of Arabia said:


> Gagging order



I do not have a gag order, thank you very much. But publicly recalling my quibble with a mod is _not_ a line that I wish to walk.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

so you were banned then and let back in.


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## Chris of Arabia (Dec 16, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> I do not have a gag order, thank you very much. But publicly recalling my quibble with a mod is _not_ a line that I wish to walk.



Message received :blushing:


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## Helen B (Dec 16, 2007)

One way of avoiding criticism of some of the technical aspects of your work would be to strip out the EXIF then say that it was shot on film and the scan doesn't do it justice. You'd have to admit that you hadn't put any effort in presenting the image, but that might be preferable to admitting that your technique is less than perfect.

Joking apart, I find that a lot of criticism is based solely on the viewer's values. It's quite an effort to first try to understand what the photographer is aiming for. It is a lot easier to apply cookie cutter standards. In very few cases is there any attempt to discuss the photographer's objective, and whether or not that gets across. That's why I have a similar stance to JC1220's. If someone has a specific question about their work it is a lot easier to respond positively and in a way that helps the individual. Technical problems are often the least serious part of a photographer's work - they are easy to fix. An overall lack of direction can be harder to work on for both parties.

Those of you who are fans of 'People Like Us', a spoof documentary series on BBC, may remember the Photographer episode. Bill Nighy, as the photographer, gets an excellent, incisive, critique of his work. I'll have to transcribe it someday.

Best,
Helen


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## Mrsforeman1 (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey this isn't supposed to be about HER. At least not, only her.
Or max...leave him alone.


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## Alpha (Dec 16, 2007)

Mrsforeman1 said:


> Hey this isn't supposed to be about HER. At least not, only her.
> Or max...leave him alone.



Oh don't you worry about me. I can hold my own just fine


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

pick on and be picked on.


what goes around comes around.


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## terri (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> pick on and be picked on.
> 
> 
> what goes around comes around.


Check your PM box.    Thank you.


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

Archangel said:


> ... even put them on your ignore list if you feel that strongly about them.



thanks for the hint, my list just grew, and I feel relaxed now 


Seriously!


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## terri (Dec 16, 2007)

Alex_B said:


> thanks for the hint, my list just grew, and I feel relaxed now
> 
> 
> Seriously!


I think you're showing off how smart you are. :razz:

Seriously!


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

terri said:


> I think you're showing off how smart you are. :razz:
> 
> Seriously!



Errm, no I am just trying to serve as a shining example in here


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## kundalini (Dec 16, 2007)

WOW.  This thread caught on like a wildfire.



Alex_B said:


> Errm, no I am just trying to serve as a shining example in here


 
When I grow up, I want to be just like you Alex.

_(checking to see if I'm on your ever growing list)_


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## Alex_B (Dec 16, 2007)

kundalini said:


> When I grow up, I want to be just like you Alex.
> 
> _(checking to see if I'm on your ever growing list)_



to be on that list, you have to try much much harder  ...

And BTW, I do not believe you ever want to be like me ... liar!


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

i have checked my pm box and will only be posting nice thoughts from now and keep my real thoughts to myself.


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## Arch (Dec 16, 2007)

jols said:


> i have checked my pm box and will only be posting nice thoughts from now and keep my real thoughts to myself.



well done


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

i might have a relapse every now and again though:greenpbl:


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## DSLR noob (Dec 16, 2007)

for the record, you guys can be as brutal or as harsh as you want with any of my photos in the future.


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## jols (Dec 16, 2007)

now thats where your wrong cause if im too bad i get told off


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## Jeff Canes (Dec 16, 2007)

i post last week and not ones person reply, and photo really was not that good


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## RyanLilly (Dec 17, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> Because these problems are widespread and chronic.



Chronic, you say? That could make us critique photos better!


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## Alex_B (Dec 17, 2007)

DSLR noob said:


> for the record, you guys can be as brutal or as harsh as you want with any of my photos in the future.



same here ... also for the past, not just the future


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## sabbath999 (Dec 18, 2007)

I am not aiming my comments at any person in particular who has posted in the thread. If anybody sees any resemblance to anybody here on TPF or on any of the other internet photo sites, well that is your interpretation, not mine.

Sure, folks can be as brutal or harsh as they want with mine, edit them, call me both a fascist and a communist at the same time, I don't care.

While I don't generally request C&C (as in I have NEVER requested it), if somebody wants to make it, that's fine... there is just absolutely zero chance that I will even listen to anybody who's work I haven't seen a bunch of and who isn't demonstrably better than I am.

People like SwitchFX (or however he spells his name, I know that is wrong), Alex B, Chiller, Jeff Canes (just to name a few), those folks I will pay attention to because I have seen at least a small percentage of their body of work and it is excellent... people who just post critiques without showing their own stuff? Not a chance.

Just because somebody can sound smart on the internet doesn't mean they can take good pictures, and if a person can't demonstrate that he or she takes good pictures, why on earth would anybody listen to them.

Me, I make absolutely no claim whatever that I take good pictures. Many if not most of mine are weak-to-bad. That's why I don't ever offer C&C myself... until I get my act together and get a LOT better at both the art and craft of photography, who am I to say anything about what others are doing... about the only thing I ever do is offer a bit of encouragement for folks who are trying.

I am glad to help folks understand technical questions within the limits of my ability (exposure, focus, how a particular camera feature works, etc.) and can offer my own experiences on the quality of equipment that I have owned or used.

Folks have to understand, this is the internet, and part of understanding that is that there are both artists and wannabes galore... people who have zero technical skills that still produce amazing pictures, and people who can quote every lens ratio of every Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Minolta, Sigma, Tamron and Tokina lenses... and couldn't take an interesting picture to save their lives. Many of these folks would rather shoot test charts than something actually interesting...

So I say when looking at internet C&C, consider the source of who is giving it. Is this person an artist or craftsman who's work you see in front of you every day, or is it some snarky person with a huge vocabulary and a large amount of book learning (or at least who knows how to Google well) who you have never seen pictures from?

If a person who posts C&C has "it" then he or she needs to show that on a regular basis to be taken seriously... at least by me.

For those of you who DO post your amazing stuff on a regular basis, I humbly say "I am not worthy" because I learn so much by your IMAGES and your words.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 18, 2007)

I can see taking advice from people who aren't as good as you sometimes.  Sometimes people just see things a little bit different and that helps you see it yourself.


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## Alpha (Dec 18, 2007)

sabbath999 said:


> Post



You forget the element of style. By that logic I shouldn't bother giving any critique since so few here do editorial style work. It's just like wine. You start getting into big, expensive reds and then you develop a need to be blown away by everything you drink. It's a frustrating environment in which chronic oversaturation, oversharpening, HDR (to make up for your digi's poor dynamic range, of course) are pervasive, and most of the people on the board are impossible to please otherwise. If people don't like my work then they don't like my work. But I won't belittle it by kowtowing to this bull**** commercial populism. I'm not going to waste my time shooting certain subjects and processing in certain ways just so that I can post a photo for you to see that I can put my money where my mouth is. I'm knowledgeable regardless. If you want to "see" my work, hop on a plane to Raleigh and I'll show you some toned FB gelatin and some Ciba. Even as arrogant (so you all think) as I am, I still listen to what people say. Whether I agree or not is another story. You could take absolutely miserable photos and still make a poignant remark regarding my work. To reject someone on face is a different story, and you stand only to lose by doing it.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 18, 2007)




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## The_Traveler (Dec 18, 2007)

Oh boy.
Isn't it time for the moron twins to post something?


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## Bevel Heaven (Dec 18, 2007)

this is friggin rediculous....... I guess there are the same type of people in all walks of life. On my forum, a vintage Ducati [Italian motorcycle] forum, I have had some people with the holier than thou attitude, they demean others, they berate others,......... It is like everything that comes out of their keyboard is designed to make themselves look like the king ding dong they think they are, and at the same time, chastise everyone else. WOW. I have been thinking about this type of crap I have read here for weeks since I joined this forum and began posting. Now here is a post on this exact topic. 

Nice. 

I have banned several guys from my forum for being a$$ hats. They just couldn;t tone anything down. I give em a PM warning/reminder of my rules and guidlines, then a respond to their diatribe telling them to delete their post by a certain time and tone it down from here on out or I will delete it for them, along with ALL their other posts, and bann them thereafter.... 

An excerpt from my forum below;

_The administrators of this forum reserve the right to delete any comments or threads which they consider to be offensive, inflammatory, discriminatory, off-topic or generally rude in nature. Civil behaviour is mandatory on this forum at all times by everyone involved. Personal attacks WILL NOT be tolerated and abusers of this rule will be banned from posting on this forum. _

_And if you still don;t get it: _

_Hint #1. Almost nobody ever changes their opinion of another person as a result of a message you send criticizing him. They are more likely to change their opinion of you. _

_Hint #2. If you said it once, and nobody listened, saying it again louder and more forcefully is not going to change anything. _

There is a bunch more stuff but you'all get the picture. My forum is privately owned as well, it is mine. To the guys who cry FREEDOM OF SPEECH and all that....... that is great - BYE BYE if you are going to be an ass.

Anyways, I have no axe to grind with anyone here on this forum, as noone has *really* pissed me off........ no big deal. That said, some of the posters in this thread I think wouldn;t last very long on my forum :hugs: 

Hugs and kisses all'round boys

All I know is that after 25+ years of taking photos, I still learn new stuff all the time which is why I tend to visit this place every few days, hoping to gleen something I haven;t already done or tried. And for that I appreciate all the MEANINGFULL comments that SOME people write.

BTW I like what sabbath999 had to say and pretty much feel the same.


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## Alpha (Dec 18, 2007)

Bevel Heaven said:


> Hint #1. Almost nobody ever changes their opinion of another person as a result of a message you send criticizing him. They are more likely to change their opinion of you.



I agree entirely. What a wonderfully hypocritical thing of you to say 



> Hint #2. If you said it once, and nobody listened, saying it again louder and more forcefully is not going to change anything.



Except for messages in red font. Now _that_ will make somebody listen.


If you don't like the way the forum is run, then go post in the suggestions section. This diatribe of yours doesn't even have anything to do with this thread. It's just a rant about "some of the posters." Go back to your own forum if it bothers you that much.


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## shorty6049 (Dec 19, 2007)

this thread is craaaaazayy!


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## Battou (Dec 19, 2007)

sabbath999, There are flaws with your stand point one major one and a couple minor ones. The major one boils down to one simple point, What is "interesting". That said, yeah any one can say what they find interesting is interesting, however there come times when photographers specialize in things that some one has zero interest in. It is for this reason I try to only grant any critical analysis on images that I my self make a point to take. I don't take "interesting" pictures very often The bulk of my work is in automotive, primarily a different sector of automotive photography to boot and abandoned structures. I do not get artzy fartzy on those images, but I do know how to. 

Now I am sure you don't want to see every ding, dent, scratch, peeling clearcoat and broken panel on a 2001 Saturn, do you....I didn't think so. My architectural imagery is boring and mundane to many as well. For the most part I don't take pictures to please people or peak their interest, That dose not mean I can not, merely that I do not. The photographs I take are interesting to a select group of people. This brings me to one of the minor aspects, I don't put the bulk of that on display for a few reasons. One, this is not Den's Body shop, Nationwide insurance or the Urban revitalization forum, Two they had a purpose, my purpose. What do you as a community need with those images, Nothing. So I choose to leave the bulk of them at home. Just because one does not show you he/she can take a good picture does not mean they can't nor should it mean they can't see an issue and should be disregarded.

Some thing you touched on but missed one of the points on. It's something I have said countless times and that is, knowing something technically is different than knowing something in practice are two entirely different things. Not knowing a technical aspect of a photo can **** up an image. Just because some one who knows DOF by all it's technical aspects dose not mean they can pull off a spectacular bokeh, there is more to it than that, and I know you know that. To some one trying to pull off a spectacular bokeh and failing due to lack of technical knowledge, to disregard input from this person is foolhardy, they may have the information the one taking the picture is lacking, the same thing applies to equipment.


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## Alex_B (Dec 19, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> Oh boy.
> Isn't it time for the moron twins to post something?



:lmao:


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## Bevel Heaven (Dec 19, 2007)

MaxBloom          you are one funny, er, person.


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## Chris of Arabia (Dec 19, 2007)

I found myself reading this through and finding merit in almost everything being written about their personal approach to receiving CC from others. Or at least I did until I thought about whether that made sense to me.

Having spent an admittedly short time thinking about what my own view really is, what I came up with when considering feedback was this:

Do I understand the comment/suggestion being made?
Do I agree with it?
If 1 & 2 is yes, then I have something I can work with. If 1 is yes but not 2, then the suggestion gets parked. If 1 is a no (2 temporarily redundant at this point), then I need to ask questions.

Any consideration of who is making the comment is secondary to the above, but I am more like to listen to someone I respect as a person, whether I consider their photography to be of a standard or not.

As an aside, a recent photograph I posted here received a comment to the effect that the poster didn't like the particular image in question - fair enough, sounds like differing views in taste: an opinion I'd say. They then said "sorry" :scratch:. Why do you have to apologise for holding an opinion? So long as you can express your thoughts in a considered manner, without being offensive, you shouldn't have to start 'softening the blow' by being apologetic about it. That seems to display a certain lack of conviction.


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## Neuner (Dec 19, 2007)

jols said:


> its called taking the piss
> 
> sorry you americans dont get humour do ya



You're not American?  I G U E S S  WE  S H O U L D  T H E N  W R I T E  I N  C A P S  A N D  T Y P E  S L O W E R  S O Y O U  U N D E R S T A N D .


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## Neuner (Dec 20, 2007)

Bevel Heaven said:


> _The administrators of this forum reserve the right to delete any comments or threads which they consider to be offensive, inflammatory, discriminatory, off-topic or generally rude in nature. Civil behaviour is mandatory on this forum at all times by everyone involved. Personal attacks WILL NOT be tolerated and abusers of this rule will be banned from posting on this forum. _
> 
> *My forum is privately owned as well, it is mine. To the guys who cry FREEDOM OF SPEECH and all that....... *



It's good that as a forum owner and administrator you have these ground rules, but more responsibility is being placed on you.  Times are changing for the internet and locally we have experienced this first hand. A neighboring city has passed a law banning internet harrassment which stemmed from a local teenage girl committing suicide due to comments on MySpace.  I think most have heard about it on the national news, but here is a link; http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gg5xCtQtLBF6vJqWXStItGEOsJfwD8T39QMG0

No matter what you think about the individuals in the story and what has happened, the end result of the matter is that the government is getting more of a grip on the internet and there may be severe consequences to what you type anywhere.

I've owned a website and dismantled it after it started turning into a big brawl.  Yes, it's your website and you can act all high & mighty, but you need to understand that you have a large social responsibility and you must always be on your guard for what's hiding around the next corner.


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## kundalini (Dec 20, 2007)

I take great homage to the majority of what has appeared in this thread.  Some of it I agree with some of it not so much (kinda like the C&C of my photos).  Unless I completely missed it above, there has been an aspect of offering C&C that has been overlooked thus far.

I am guilty of offering comments like nice color, I like it, I don&#8217;t like it, WOW, blah, blah, blah.  The longer I stayed on this forum, the more cognizant I became of the C&C other heavy posters were giving and the reasons for theirs comments both on a technical level as well as an aesthetic level.  This made my go Hmmmm.  During this time I was also becoming more comfortable with my skills for my camera.  I continued to read books, do web searches for my inadequacies or lack of understanding a particular issue.  The more I felt at ease of the initial shock of shooting images again, really trying to achieve a certain purpose in the image, the more I felt comfortable to elaborate on my comments to someone&#8217;s photo that asked for C&C.  This once more made me go Hmmmm.

Could those two be related in some way?  Methinks they quite possibly could.  This required me to study an image rather than just having a glance and making an off the wall comment.  I also spotlighted certain members here (and elsewhere) to gain more understanding.  I look at a photo that has been posted for C&C now before I read any comments by anyone else.  Sometimes I make notes of my thoughts and lay in wait to see if somebody else will pick up the same impression that I did.  Sometimes I&#8217;m further down in the thread and can find a facet within the image that had been overlooked or at least not brought out for attention.  I am getting more comments further down in the thread that either quotes me or references something I said more often.  When it does happen, I get a little smile on my face as an acknowledgement that my efforts are not in vain.

Granted there are one or two 4 digit members here that I have absolutely no regard for their comments.  There are one or two members that have really pissed me off for various reasons, but don&#8217;t mean their comments contain any less validity.  So, on that end it is &#8220;different strokes for different strokes&#8221;.  Same can be said for 2 & 3 digit members as well.

In conclusion, my point is that by me contributing quantitative C&C is complimenting my efforts to become a well-rounded photographer.  I truly believe this is a positive not only as a photographer but for personal growth and development as well.  I may not be a professional but I do posses two eyes, an opinion and grey matter that (generally) works.


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## JerryPH (Dec 20, 2007)

I posted once in the CC. I learned a few things about the picture... and I also learned that the correct answer to ANY critique was "thank-you"... then I pick through all the jewels of info, improve, smile and play again later when I've improved the aspect that needed improvement.

I use what I feel was sincere, and the rest that I do not use gets put in my trash.

Everyone has a right to CC... and though some may have a distinct lack of social skills or come off as rude, condescening or jerks... listen to them anyway, becuase they may have valid advice, but filter out what YOU feel is important, and always thank them for their effort. It's what you came for. The bad wil help you a LOT more than the pats on the back.

When I critique, I make it a point to voice what I think is wrong in a pic and how I feel is the right way to correct it... but I NEVER EVER leave without saying somthing that I feel is nice about a pic, and that sentiment is sincere. If I cannot do that, I will not post (well, I watch very hard not to anyways).

If you put a pic in the CC section... EXPECT it to be critiqued, thank all participants for caring enough to share their thoughts, learn from it and move on.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2007)

JerryPH said:


> When I critique, I make it a point to voice what I think is wrong in a pic and how I feel is the right way to correct it... but I NEVER EVER leave without saying somthing that I feel is nice about a pic, and that sentiment is sincere. If I cannot do that, I will not post (well, I watch very hard not to anyways).



Although I appreciate the kind hearts behind the motivation to always say something nice, but that sometimes conflicts with the reality.  

To me, I think it is much more important that I tell the absolute truth in an objective manner as I see it. If I can say something that will help, I do. If I like something, I say that, but I have an absolute distaste for unwarranted praise.

I think there is a sort of social contract entered in when asking or giving c/c.  If I post a picture, I expect that a responder will be honest and, as much as possible, objective and I have a commitment to listen to honestly given C/C.

As a critic/commenter my responsibility is to be honest - and civil and I expect that the OP will listen to what I say and be civil in the interchange. (He/she doesn't have to believe it, just must listen).

If the OP violates the contract by being a schmuck, then I feel my requirements to be civil are abrogated. And they will get what they deserve.


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## jols (Dec 20, 2007)

Neuner said:


> You're not American? I G U E S S WE S H O U L D T H E N W R I T E I N C A P S A N D T Y P E S L O W E R S O Y O U U N D E R S T A N D .


 

and can you put spaces between your words it would make it easier for me thanks


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## JerryPH (Dec 20, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> Although I appreciate the kind hearts behind the motivation to always say something nice, but that sometimes conflicts with the reality.
> 
> To me, I think it is much more important that I tell the absolute truth in an objective manner as I see it. If I can say something that will help, I do. If I like something, I say that, but I have an absolute distaste for unwarranted praise.
> 
> ...


 
I totally respect your point and I agree with it, but I think you misunderstood me. 

I don't hold back what I feel about it, but there is a difference between telling them they are useless as a photographer and that picture sucks vs explaining that their picture is blurred, has no clear subject and that blurred horse (or is that their dog?) clearly has a tree growing out of it's head (or is that it's butt?), but I can say it without being offensive and demeaning to the person as a human being.

We all want the same thing, to be explained what is wrong and how to fix it and how to do better in the future. Being told they are a photographic dolt is not critique, its an insult (I am exaggerating, of course, but thats just to make it clear to those who are not clear on what I mean).

I think some people need to define the difference between an insult and a critique to themselves... and offer more critique and less insults.

Not to sugar coat it, but there are honestly very few pics posted where one looks at it and say "ugh! thats just plain terrible"... and even with those few, you have to give credit to the photographer for at least trying, and at least there you can finish off your critique with " well you can see that there is a lot of room for improvement, but it was a good effort. Next time try... ".

I was bloody lucky with my one critique so far. They were polite, explained that I had a railing growing out of the head of my subject as well as a few things that at the time were above my understanding. 

I took all the criticism, said, "yup he's right about... ", looked at what I did not know said "huh?" and and used that to learn more about lighting than I was expecting to from their comments.

Everyone who posts there wants a critique, but no one is looking to be insulted. If someone finds themselves wanting to get really nasty with someone... there is a little red "X" at the top of the window that they should use. I've done it numerous times myself! 

Ladies and Gents, it is so close to the holiday season and maybe we need to take a small step back, go shoot some photos that make us feel good about this time of the year and once we come here with good feeling, we should share that.  I don't know about you, but I think I am going to go start a thread that does *just* that.


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## Chiller (Dec 20, 2007)

I wasnt gonna reply, but Chiller talked me into it.   I have found it easier to just stop posting as many shots as I used to, cause my ignore list was getting too long and typing all the names in took too  much time. :lmao:
  Even tho this is a private owned forum, I just find the disrespect for other members,  the mod team, and the owners, gets me.   Im a Mod on two other forums...one photo related and one non photo related, and I see what goes on behind the scenes.  To deal with the "morons" of the forum, is part of the job, but could be a lot easier if the members just followed the rules instead of coming on with egos and attitudes and throw it in the other members faces.  

  I do photography as a hobby and post my photos for fun.  I never plan on being a photographer...... , ....oh never mind..... Im wasting my time....just show a little respect for the people who run tpf.  Check your egos will ya...  

  Im still voting for the ignore list that blocks people from posting on any persons thread that has them on "ignore". ....


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## dpolston (Dec 20, 2007)

Just a quick aside. I have been one of the people that jumped on Max for his comments and I went as far as to say [about his photos] "put up or shut up" (which as you might imagine... pissed him off). I regret that exchange and I have since offered an apology and he has forgiven me for it. And to be honest, I am planning to meet Max after the holidays. I'm becoming one of his biggest fans. Not in the same way "Jim Jones had people witting to drink the cool-aid" kind of fan, but I feel a friendship brewing. Frankly I have a big list of "friends-a-brewing" people (and you all know who you are!)   =o)

I think I did that because I was a little put off by the harshness of his critiques but in retrospect like Simon Cowel (sp), he's usually right... albeit "bull in the china shop right". I respect his opinions but frankly I might hold other posters somewhat higher in a way because of the situational experience. Not that's his is less important, it's just because of the situation. If I want a wedding photo question answered, I ask Cindy, a wedding photographer. If I need industrial questions answered I might go to someone else. And if I ever want to photograph a bug... it's going to be TCimages! But just because he and many, many others don't do this stuff full time doesn't make their opinions any less valid. Heck, I am a contractor. I spent my morning dropping off some prints to a local radio DJ during his morning show (and I took a few randoms - which I have been unofficially approached to take some corporate press photos of the station) and then I did a drywall repair and replaced the sub floor under a toilet! That's diverse but I still have been fortunate enough to be on the forum's startup screen this month. So I too take offense to the exact thing I accused Max of being. 

But all of these critiques I give and ask for help me become a better photographer and I'd hope that the reason we're here in the first place is to become one. I look forward to Max or Cindy or Traveler or Alex B or anyone for that matter criticizing one of my shots. When one of those photographers, pro or not, gives me the "great shot" it makes me feel as if what I enjoy is not done in vane and my heart skips a beat. But on the other hand, if I get the "you need to do this...", I take that to heart too. Why? To make shots better and become more likely to have the "great shot".

At the end of the day. If I like the shot and see some value in it to me or the person in it... I'm happy and frankly that's all that matters. I need and want your criticisms but if it is given in a way I think it's "personal" not "technical" I ignore it too.

I just hope and pray that those of you I have given my opinions to have found it helpful and not personal. 

David


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## Chiller (Dec 20, 2007)

Excellent words David.  For me personally I think I have over stayed my welcome here.   When TPF used to be a fun place to share images, I posted a lot more, sometimes a few threads a day.  I guess we all see the forum different.  Me?  I do this as a hobby, and a release from my every day craziness, and dealing with customers.  After 5, twelve hours days ,the last thing I want to do is post some photos of my time away, and get comments, that do not help, but comments that say...."this shot does nothing for me. "  The new breed  here does not  have the same attitude towards photography as it was years ago.   For me, some of the comments recieved from members here just make me want me to put my camera away, and do not inspire me to carry on with my hobby.  
  Many of my good friends have left tpf, but I still have many good friends here, so I stay to share my photos with them.  
  Maybe it is time the forum had a division...one for fun, and one for people who want professional talk.  With over 10000 members it is heard to please everyone, and some of us feel our time is getting short here.  
  But being one of early members, I just hate seeing what has gone on here over the last little while.


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## Digital Matt (Dec 20, 2007)

Chiller said:


> With over 10000 members it is heard to please everyone, and some of us feel our time is getting short here.
> But being one of early members, I just hate seeing what has gone on here over the last little while.



Couldn't agree more.


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## kundalini (Dec 20, 2007)

I've only been a member since July and I have noticed a dissension amongst the ranks.  Is it a case of familiarity breeds contempt?

Chiller, thanks for the words of wisdom in post #91.  I was in the midst of lampooning a certain member for being contemptible in many of his responses of late. (NO MAX, it's not you this time).  I decided to hold my tounge............for now.


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