# First Sale: How much should I charge



## Philigran (Jun 3, 2015)

Hello friends,

I thought it would never happen, but I am about to sell my first images. A resort here in Canada wants to buy 3-5 pictures I took of the surrounding area. They asked me to come up with a price per pciture. They want to aquire general rights because they might put them up in some of their rooms, make puzzles out of them or give them away as presents to VIP guests. So a lot of potential usgae which I won't be able to track.

What would be a realistic price to charge in this case. I honestly have not the slightest idea. I googled a lot today, but it stays abstract. Most of the info online is about seeling prints which factors in material costs etc. Here it is way different though.

Thanks so much guys.

Phil


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## Derrel (Jun 3, 2015)

Well Phil...as the good doctor said....


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## Parker219 (Jun 3, 2015)

I would charge  $100 a photo and hope to build a good, long, lucrative business relationship with the resort.

Make your sales contract say that you can use the photos for your portfolio and everywhere they use your photo they have to give you the photo credit.

Without seeing the images thats what I would say, but if you post some of them, maybe my price will change.


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## Designer (Jun 3, 2015)

Parker219 said:


> ..build a good, long, lucrative business relationship with the resort.



Good idea!  You might not make a killing with this group of photos, but getting your foot in the door is a good thing.


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## tirediron (Jun 3, 2015)

Designer said:


> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> > ..build a good, long, lucrative business relationship with the resort.
> ...


 It would, but if I had a dollar for every time I'd heard, "Great, we'll call you again when we need...."  I'd be a lot richer than I am.  Start by asking them what price they have in mind.  If this is a small private "resort" in Ontario lakes country, they're "reasonable price" is going to be vastly different than that of Fairmont's.  I agree with not pricing yourself out of a job (having just done that myself recently), but at the same time, if they're prepared to pay $200, why leave money on the table?


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## KmH (Jun 3, 2015)

You don't sell your photos. You sell rights to usage of your photos- a use license.

Photo credit is essentially worthless, because, most people don't look at the credit, and those that do aren't likely to contact you for paid work.
The request for "general rights" is a way to screw you out of income for some un-specified ways of using your copyright.

The chances of you developing a long term relationship with the resort are slim and none.
They can just contact some other photographer that has posted some photos online they figure they can get cheap.
In fact, if you ask for to much money for use of their photos they will do just that.

They will likely low ball you if you ask them how much they are willing to pay. If for no other reason than they don't yet know themselves how they might use your copyrights.


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## pixmedic (Jun 3, 2015)

man...such downers around here. 

heres the deal Phil...
you _*could*_ use some crazy online business CODB calculators that will tell you that you need to charge $10,000 per picture per year in order to just break even as a full time photographer....but in all reality, im pretty sure thats not whats going on here. 

Yes, many businesses do not want/need/care for a real "budget" when it comes to photography. 
and yes, many of those businesses will simply go with the "lowest bidder" because photography is not considered the commodity that it used to be. Lots of regular people have the same feelings. it sucks, but that's just the way it is. I think its safe to assume you are probably not going to make some killer licensing deal here and rake in serious cash, although I certainly couldn't completely rule it out. 

So...lets deal with what is left. 
just the facts Phil, just the facts. 

it would be great if the resort could give you a general budget they want to work within. 
im sure they are probably thinking the same thing about you. 
the most likely scenario is that the resort wants you to quote them a one time price per photo and they basically get to do whatever they want with the pictures. 
in other words, unless you have a contract limiting their usage, and are prepared to check on and enforce it, your basically going to be selling them all rights to the photos. 
is this something you care about?
 if so, i would just decline this deal. 
do you still want to make a little money on this?
if so, I will continue on. 

A lot of people will tell you its a bad deal and you should get licensing fees and usage fees, and limiting contracts, and all that jazz, but the real honest-to-goodness truth is....its just not likely to happen.  If the resort had a "real" photography budget, they would hire someone to shoot exactly what they want for exactly the reasons they want it. 

So...
If you want to make a little money on some pictures you took that are otherwise not generating any revenue for you, (and I would, because bad deal or not, I hate missing a chance at some easy money) here is what I would do. 
talk to whomever is in charge of this deal at the resort. 
tell them you are putting together some package deals to present to them, but you would like to know if they have a specific budget range in mind so you can tailor the packages more specifically to their needs. 
If they can give you at least a general idea what they are willing to pay, you will be in a better position to decide whether its a deal you want to pursue. 
If they give you zero feedback as to what they are willing to pay, your kinda stuck guessing. 

I would definitely have a contract. 
some things you will have to work out....
do they want prints or digital files? in this particular case, I would try really _*really*_ hard not to give them a digital file. 
if they want pictures to hang in rooms, they can tell you what sizes and you can sell them individual prints. if you give them a file, they will just print off whatever they want, and you will probably never know the extent of how your work is used. 
pictures for VIP guests? no problem. they tell you want size and order a print from you. 
picture to make a puzzle from? might be more difficult as the puzzle company might need the digital file. you might have to find a company that can do that, and quote the resort a price where YOU get the puzzle made from whatever picture they want.  

if you can work out selling them just prints....
$100 a print is pretty good money for an 8x10 or 11x14. 
we use Bay Photo for prints, and those sizes are pretty cheap for us. 
if the resort says they want a lot of pictures, you can always give them a volume discount.


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 3, 2015)

The pricing would depend on if they just wanted prints or if they want usage for a period of time for a variety of purposes (which is what this seems to be). I've priced one framed matted photo for more than $100 so that's not even in the ballpark for commercial use by a business.

There isn't a quick easy answer and it seems to vary depending on where you live. You probably want to be at least in the lower end of the price range for this type work in your area. Try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA for info. on pricing, licensing, contracts, etc.

Please get some professional resources because this seems to be a significant potential contract. Typically a contract would be for a year's use for __; then for another year's usage it would be less since it's for extended use of the same photo(s), then somewhat less for the third year, etc. - at least that's how I learned it.

And a photo credit is only used typically for editorial use in a newspaper, magazine, etc. Commercial use typically does _not_ use a photo credit - do you see photographers' names in ads, brochures, etc.? no you do not. It takes time for a photographer to build up a reputation and you could get future recommendations from clients and by word of mouth but your name/watermark wouldn't typically be used.


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## Derrel (Jun 3, 2015)

It is no longer 1989. The use license model of procuring photos is no longer the norm for small businesses. It is no longer 1995, and high-quality images are being made with every press of the shutter button even from small cameras in the hands of enthusiasts and serious amateurs, as well as small-time professionals and stock shooters who churn out thousands of images per year. It is 2015, and a person can procure digital images for $3.99 a pop these days.

I JUST did a Google search:_ resorts in Canada_, and I picked ONE, totally at random, Deerhurst. Then, I spent 10 seconds and typed in "stock photos of Deerhurst Resort" and hit return. HERE IS WHAT I found, within 45 seconds.stock photos of Deerhurst resort - Google Search

If you are dealing with a small resort, and the photos are **exceptional**, you might get $500 per image, sold outright, for a $2,500 payment. It's very difficult to say, but you need to get at least some idea in this poker game. Offer them a use license arrangement that's high, and favorable to you. If they balk, then ask them to provide you with a counter-offer. If they really WANT the photos, they will get back to you with the counter-offer; use their offer's price as an informational base.

Look, we have NO idea of what you have to sell: maybe you have some simply flat-out ASTOUNDING images that happen to have been taken under extraordinary conditions, or shots that happened under say, once-in-a-decade type conditions, or with a gorgeous woman on ski slopes under extraordinary weather conditions....I dunno...there is regular-grade stock imagery available EVERYWHERE, and cheap, and there are always exceptional images that nobody else happened to get. To a small, B.C. fishing resort, the images might be worth $100 per image; to a bigger resort, they might be willing to pay $500 or even $1200 per image...it depends on a number of factors. Keep in mind, that old-school 1989 use rights model was back before there were 50 million d-slr cameras in North America.


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 3, 2015)

Here's an example (below). To me it seems on the high end price wise but of course I don't know going rates for the location, and the sample contract is from an experienced photographer who might be 'in demand' and can charge higher prices. 

The contract was for photos taken for a college. At the top it gives info. that is printed on the back of the invoice including purpose, specified copyright info. (photo credit) for _published editorial use_, print copies to be provided to the photographer of any brochures etc. ('tear sheets'), and that any further usage fees would be negotiated. I don't see a specific time frame but for a college the use of the photos would presumably be long term and widely used for various publications, etc. - therefore the high cost.

I think it seems like companies are often approaching who they expect are inexperienced or amateur photographers who may not know what an appropriate amount would be to charge. A business is going to use the photos to promote themselves and to make money (good photos that make their place look good would more likely attract prospective customers).

ASMP has info. including 'paperwork share' where photographers share samples of their contracts etc. (You might need to be a member to access those.) Their info. also covers pricing expectations for a local business compared to a regional or national company, costs based on more extensive usage compared to a one time 'run', etc.

Commercial Example American Society of Media Photographers
Pricing Guides American Society of Media Photographers


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## Claudillama (Jun 11, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> man...such downers around here.
> 
> heres the deal Phil...
> you _*could*_ use some crazy online business CODB calculators that will tell you that you need to charge $10,000 per picture per year in order to just break even as a full time photographer....but in all reality, im pretty sure thats not whats going on here.
> ...


great advice! thank you


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