# Proud of Myself - Declined A Low Paying Gig



## Cinka (Mar 11, 2011)

Today I got an email from a potential client. She mentioned she was on a budget and when I asked her what it was, she said she wanted to hire someone for under $1000, but was finding it difficult to find someone. Feeling charitable, I said that if she thought she could do $1000 even, I could help her out. She said no. 

My usual response would be to take what I can get, but I had the forethought to remind myself that I can no longer afford to take low paying gigs, let alone in the dead of Summer. I feel pretty proud of myself for standing up for my rates. Sure I could use the money, but I feel that if I don't start charging what I'm worth, I'll never make it in this biz. 

Yay. Just thought I'd share.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 11, 2011)

Feels good to say "no, sorry", don't it?


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 11, 2011)

I suppose I would have had to look at the factors invloved here, how easy was the shoot, how much time were they looking to book you for and what are the chances of future work.  These days being flexable with rates can end up getting you more work, money is money in the real world. 15 years ago I used  to say that I wouldn't take my camera out of the bag for less than $500, things have since changed, thanks to digital and the amateurs that are now playing weekend professionals. I hold a line on rates, but don't turn down any money now. I charge based on assignment and time, if it's a quick shoot I won't charge as much and usually end up landing a client that keeps coming back.  If you turned down anything close to a $1000 and didn't have anything else to shoot that day, you through away  money plus future potential.


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## tirediron (Mar 11, 2011)

Good for you!


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## GerryDavid (Mar 12, 2011)

You could offer her something for $999.99.  Thats under $1000, well before tax.  

I think what the event is also matters.  Its something easy and doesnt take alot of time behind the computer or camera then a $500 gig could be worth it.


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## c.cloudwalker (Mar 12, 2011)

Without any idea of the type of shoot, I find it hard to congratulate you...

If it was a wedding, sure, absolutely congrats.

If it was a headshot, it would have been worth going somewhat under the $1,000 fee.


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## KAikens318 (Mar 12, 2011)

I often forget that what seems like a lot of money to me usually isn't to the client. I would not have turned it down even if she went down to five hundred, but then again, that is a car payment, insurance payment, plus cell phone or another bill for me. I was contact to do a small wedding, less that fifty people, five hours max, no before getting ready photos or anything. I decided to high ball it and see what happened. Told them my usual rate is $1200 for a larger wedding, but since this was a smaller one, I would do it for $800 with a CD included and they went for it with no hesitation. My last wedding was 7 hours and I got $350 for it, so I was happy.

I think it really depends on what type of shoot you turned down and how much work it really would have involved. But sometimes...it feels really good to say, sorry, you can't afford me


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## xjoewhitex (Mar 12, 2011)

Something that I have yet to be able to do lol. But I am curious, what is the job you turned down that it wasn't worth $-1k?


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 12, 2011)

KAikens318 said:


> I decided to high ball it and see what happened. Told them my usual rate is $1200 for a larger wedding, but since this was a smaller one, I would do it for $800 with a CD included and they went for it with no hesitation. My last wedding was 7 hours and I got $350 for it, so I was happy.




$1200 for a LARGE package?!?

$350 and you were happy with it?!?

Are you kidding me?


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## KAikens318 (Mar 12, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> KAikens318 said:
> 
> 
> > I decided to high ball it and see what happened. Told them my usual rate is $1200 for a larger wedding, but since this was a smaller one, I would do it for $800 with a CD included and they went for it with no hesitation. My last wedding was 7 hours and I got $350 for it, so I was happy.
> ...



I have only shot 2 weddings in my life so I don't feel I have the right to charge a lot even though my photos do come out nice (just not AS nice as someone who has been doing this for years and years and is able to charge the high prices). I was not happy with the $350 after I edited the 1000 photos that were taken, but at that point, everything was done and over with. All of the upcoming weddings that I have booked are $1200-$1500 except for that one which is the $800 and a 2 hour wedding for $500. After this year I will be able to raise my prices because I will have 5 more weddings under my belt.


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## KmH (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm usually able to adjust my price, by providing less time, product, and/or service to the prospective customer. Stated another way, the first words I usually utter are, "Sure, I can do that.", and then negotiate.

As c.cloudwalker pointed out, without some particulars it's hard to determine if the OP made a good business decision, or not.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 13, 2011)

KAikens318 said:


> After this year I will be able to raise my prices because I will have 5 more weddings under my belt.




If you think pricing is based on experience, you're in for a very short career. Experience is only a crumb in the pie plate.

How about:

-equipment cost, first and foremost
-equipment maintenance
-equipment repairs
-equipment insurance
-owners compensation
-employee compensation
-studio rent (if applicable)
-liability insurance
-product hard costs (albums, prints etc.)
-editing time
-shooting time
-consultation time
-hard drive space
-memory cards
-dvd's
-dvd' cases (custom or generic)
-self employment taxes!!!

And thats just the beginning!

If I could base my prices on my experience alone, i'd be a flippin millionaire.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 13, 2011)

KAikens318 said:


> I have only shot 2 weddings in my life so I don't feel I have the right to charge a lot even though my photos do come out nice (just not AS nice as someone who has been doing this for years and years and is able to charge the high prices). .




And what you charge, isn't a 'right'. It isn't something that you willy nilly pull out of the air because you think you are worth "x" amount of money. Its a carefully calculated formula that takes into account all of the above, and then some.

#1 rule beginners make is charge what THEY think they could afford, or what their work is worth. Ask any full time, professional photographer who has been doing this a while, and most will tell you they they couldn't afford themselves.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 13, 2011)

The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals.  I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience.  The standard with which people used to expect  has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore. 

I have some great clients that respect the work I do for them, I have lost some clients because someone on their staff has decided they can do the job, they quickly prove the opposite and I end up charging them more to fix the mistake. I adjust my fees based on job and not so much on an hour/day/week rate, offering up packages for events, plus charge digital and computer time as well now.  The bottom line is that I used to turn down some jobs, now I take eveything that comes my way and  negotiate out a fee that works for both myself and the client.  Working is better than not working, and each job you accept offers the potential of meeting new people that may turn into potential clients.

The full time job amateurs with cameras playing in the pro market have no understanding what they are doing to the professional business, and for the most part they don't really care. Sadly it is the way photography has changed.


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## KAikens318 (Mar 13, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals.  I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience.  The standard with which people used to expect  has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore.
> 
> I have some great clients that respect the work I do for them, I have lost some clients because someone on their staff has decided they can do the job, they quickly prove the opposite and I end up charging them more to fix the mistake. I adjust my fees based on job and not so much on an hour/day/week rate, offering up packages for events, plus charge digital and computer time as well now.  The bottom line is that I used to turn down some jobs, now I take eveything that comes my way and  negotiate out a fee that works for both myself and the client.  Working is better than not working, and each job you accept offers the potential of meeting new people that may turn into potential clients.
> 
> The full time job amateurs with cameras playing in the pro market have no understanding what they are doing to the professional business, and for the most part they don't really care. Sadly it is the way photography has changed.



I am going to interject a tad on your first sentence. I work a regular full time job but I certainly am having hard time affording the equipment. I want to make photography full time, and this year it looks like I am well on my way as I am pretty booked, however just because I have another job doesn't mean that I am a hobbyist that can afford this stuff. I agree to a degree however that the people who don't want to make a living out of it and just do it for fun seem to have a lot more money to throw around. I sold a vintage lens to a guy who didn't really like photography but thought it was kind of neat to pass the time and had gone out and bought himself a D7000...something I know many a pro are drooling over. 

In response to Christopher Coy: I don't have as much to insure, so the cost is pretty low for that. I don't have a studio, I don't have employees. I never hire a second shooter unless a client requests it, but if they do, the price certainly goes up so that I can pay that second shooter well for their time and effort. Once this is a full time job for me you better believe that my prices will be higher as I have to pay rent somehow!!! Do I want to upgrade my equipment? Well of course, who doesn't always want something bigger and shinier? Right now the only thing that I need is the D7000. I have some great lenses in my wheelhouse for all kinds of occasions, 4 strobes, wireless triggers, backdrops, umbrellas, brollies, stands, remotes, tripods, props, the whole nine yards. All I am really interested in getting into full time is Sports photography. I have everything I need for that except for a better low light camera and the job. Lol. I do see where you are coming from though that there are a lot of costs associated with this. To me, bringing in $1200 from one event is my rent and car payment for the month that I don't have to take from my paychecks from my other job and for me that is huge. We all come from different walks of life. Some live paycheck to paycheck like me, others are very comfortable. It all depends on the photog I guess!


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## gsgary (Mar 13, 2011)

KAikens318 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals.  I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience.  The standard with which people used to expect  has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore.
> ...


 

You don't have the lenses to shoot sport


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 13, 2011)

I agree that you are a couple lenses shy of being able to compete in the sports world as a pro. So start saving a 300 2.8 will set you back a few dollars and I'm guessing that a 400 2.8 is out of reach.  As I have said on many occations, and not just directed at anyone in particular, if you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer, quit your full time job today and do it, photography is not as much fun when it's a full time job, with all the full time worries, and there are alot of them.


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## tirediron (Mar 13, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> The biggest problems with amateurs...


 
Which I suspect is probably very similar to what was said by many a wet-plate photographer when that Eastman punk came along with his new-fangled flm on a roll that anyone could buy and load into a Box Brownie!


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## ghache (Mar 13, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals. I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience. The standard with which people used to expect has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore.
> 
> I have some great clients that respect the work I do for them, I have lost some clients because someone on their staff has decided they can do the job, they quickly prove the opposite and I end up charging them more to fix the mistake. I adjust my fees based on job and not so much on an hour/day/week rate, offering up packages for events, plus charge digital and computer time as well now. The bottom line is that I used to turn down some jobs, now I take eveything that comes my way and negotiate out a fee that works for both myself and the client. Working is better than not working, and each job you accept offers the potential of meeting new people that may turn into potential clients.
> 
> The full time job amateurs with cameras playing in the pro market have no understanding what they are doing to the professional business, and for the most part they don't really care. Sadly it is the way photography has changed.


 
The biguest problem with amateur?

Are you telling us "non professional photographers" that we should'nt accept gigs for not alot of money because we hurt pro photography? Everyone try thier way, What would you tell to the non-professionals photographers whos starving, can't pay the bills because they decided to go into photography full time without a strong portfolio, without any exposure, contacts, without any money to buy gear? IMO you dont become a professional photographer by snaping fingers. I would really like to make the jump but for now most of us can't. I wont quit my 80k a year job without being sure i can pay my bills.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 13, 2011)

I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.

I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 14, 2011)

Dude!

There are people who will under cut quality work in any profession.

Get over it already.

The people who want to pay for quality work, will.
The people who can't, won't.

Sheesh!


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 14, 2011)

Working as a professional photographer Jeweler? ya didn't think so. It's not so much that people will pay for quality work, it's that people have lowered their idea of what quality work is, where people used to hire professionals to shoot weddings are now using the weekend shooters because they are charging less, professionals are now having to also charge less to compete with this "new" market.  I don't shoot weddings but have friends that have seen their business drop by 40%-50% over last year. In my business I'm not affected as much but I have had to make changes to the way I quote on jobs, when it comes down to trying to quote against free, I'll lose everytime, regardless of  how good I am.  

So in your business if amateurs started charging less to make your trinkets, would you have any concerns?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 14, 2011)

Yeah, your right. In my business, there is no concern of competition, or being held to the lower prices of the schlock work. What was I thinking.


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## c.cloudwalker (Mar 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Dude!
> 
> There are people who will under cut quality work in any profession.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


Imagemaker, I work full time as a photog with a large, brand new studio and a full time staff but I would play a very small violin for you if I had one 

First, as Bitter said, this is happening in just about every profession and has been happening for a very long time. Second, not only am I not worried about the next generation but I am quite willing to help some of them make it. With this attitude of yours, I can't help but wonder what you are doing here on TPF... you will only help other members if they promise not to go and take gigs?


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.
> 
> I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"


 


no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year. 

The passion to try? stfu


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 14, 2011)

ghache said:


> no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year.
> 
> The passion to try? stfu





Telling someone to STFU is not very professional. If you're trying to 'go pro', start acting like it.


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.
> 
> I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You *think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it*, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"


 
I dont see how this is different, the kid out of school is also undercutting the pros to make a portfolio, get clients? and wants to become a professional right?


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year.
> ...


 
The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 14, 2011)

ghache said:


> The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at




Do you think these kinds of conversations DON'T occur at local hobby groups or clubs? 

And no one is telling you to keep your camera turned off, or to NOT shoot things. 

All he is saying is that you have the luxury of an 80K a year job, why do you need more? If your company outsourced your job to a foreign country, and hired employees that were paid 1/4 of your annual salary... you'd be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you? Its the same concept.


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## digital flower (Mar 14, 2011)

I am glad I am not a wedding photographer. I have never seen a group that is so concerned about bottom feeders and competition from amateurs. As the owner of a small business that anyone can join by slapping a sign on the side of a pickup truck I don't worry about people like that. I saw an ad on craiglist saying "will clean up any yard for $50". That is less than I charge just to get in the truck and look at your work. Does it bother me? No because I don't really want to work for people that want to spend $50. The others can have those jobs all day long. I try and base our higher prices on the fact that we have more experience and knowledge and good customer service. That is a better business model than bitchin' about somebody trying to take out the low end jobs that we don't want anyway.

To the OP. We have lowered our prices a little (in that other business) and a few years ago I might have scoffed at taking a $1,000 job but these days you will get a call back and probably a look at your job. That is just a nod to the economic times. Our best advertising is word of mouth so I try and look to see if there is any potential for that with the lower price work. But if you can turn down work and feel good about it more power to you.


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at
> ...


 

They dont occur because they kinda respect each other, pro or not and it should be the same here i guess.
Comments he made was not directed towards me but i feel i am in that group. i would tell him to stfu over and over.

Some people just want more and some people is doing it for fun, social and whatever reason they are doing it for.. i dont see nothing wrong with this.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 14, 2011)

ghache said:


> Some peoples doesnt want more, some people wants to switch/have another career.




Well you can't ride two horses with one ass.....  But don't fault someone else for feeling the same way you would if your job were taken.


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Some peoples doesnt want more, some people wants to switch/have another career.
> ...


 
Wow, you clearly start to get the big picture. 
Why would you start being a consultant and works as a contractor when you clearly know that the business works that way? and cryyyyyy about it. Especially when the field you contact in is mostly art and used by peoples from 5 to 100 year old for decades.


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## Destin (Mar 14, 2011)

ghache said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.
> ...




^^^^ THIS: How do ever expect any of us "amatures" to get anywhere in the photography world? You can't tell me that all you seasoned old pros just magically became a professional overnight, and started with your prices at a professional level. Everyone starts low and works their way up, and they always have. 

You've just got your panties up in a bunch because there are a whole lot more amatures shooting with the advent of digital than there were in the film days. Cry me a river, it's happening in EVERY other career. I'm 18 and aiming to be a professional. I realize the state of the market and it just means that I have to make myself stand out from the competition even more, with BOTH the quality of my work, and my business etiquette.

Take contractors for example. Can you get someone to fix your house for half price? Sure. But they aren't going to have the same quality of work most likely, and (GASP!) They might have to work around the hours of their full time job. It's the same in photography and a million other jobs. Were you born yesterday, or are you blindfolded? It's not just photography.


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## benhasajeep (Mar 14, 2011)

All of my photography work is word of mouth.  My advertising budget is $0.  I am not full time though.  But I do have several very long time accounts.  And obviously they tell other people I may help them.  In 90% of the cases with the people calling me.  I have to politely say no.  Honnestly, a lot of it has to do with scheduling.  As I am away for my normal job.  Most of these calls are either people who waited till the last minute, or are looking for a deal.  My wife who is just starting out, wants to take these assignments.  And I have to tell her why its not good to take them.  She just see's the money comming in part of it, but not the whole picture (no pun intended).  I do let her do some realty photo work for alot less than should be done.  But that is not hurting anyone else, and it gives her some learning experience, and we about break even with it. The hardest part is to get her to slowly raise the rates she charges.  Even with a couple clients who tell her she is not charging enough.  For her its a confidence thing.  For people with this confidence block, it's hard to get them to see the light.  Especially if they are family.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 14, 2011)

You see now that I have thrown the rock in the water all the ripples have started, This is how people learn, if I was to just to float along and not say anything, not disagree with anyone or state my opinion, then there would be no understanding. I can try and get a point across to people, from the side of a professional that has been in the business for many years, and as I expected all the amateurs get  upset because someone has stated some facts they don't agree with.  This is all fine, even if for an instant people think about the domino affect that undercutiing has on the business as a whole.  If photographer A decides to charge $10 for a photo it forces photographer B to charge less, this continues until nether one makes any profit, so now that the market has started to collapse, photographer A says "I can't believe all these people charging so little" and now he can't make a living at it, when it was him that started  the collapse in the first place. Personal responsibility, it's always someone elses fault. I have accepted my share of personal faults over the years.

I read though the posts, and I understand that it is not just happening in photography, however this is a photo forum.  So my concerns are not about writers, jewelers or any other businesses.  I have discussed this subject at camera clubs, some understand, some respect the reasons why, but honestly, they have shown enough class as not to start telling me to shut the **** up, once you do that your opinion means nothing to me and you have lost the argument.    

Inspite of what you may think of what I said, I am right.  Kids in photo schools, that want to make it in photography will find it more difficult than ever, after spending thousands of dollars on school, approximately 1% will be involved as full time photographers a year later. It's not guys like me that have made it tough to work in this business, I'm established, I already have clients that respect the work I do. I've dedicated most of my life to photography, I've taught photography, and helped out more photographers than I can count, I give back to photography where ever I can.  I'm honest with what I say, and care about what others think, but I won't back down when it comes to dealing with people that aren't interested in understanding, what I do is say my piece and ignore them, some people don't care, it seems that there are alot on this forum that are willing to learn and try to understand the "business" of photography, there are a lot that won't. That's fine.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 14, 2011)

It is the same in many, many sectors of business. It's not just a phenomenon to Pro Photographers. :meh:


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 14, 2011)

I realize that, and am sure that your business is greatly affected by all the cheap products coming in from China. Working in the media I talk to writers that have seen there work drop off as well, afterall anyone can write a story, use spell check and grammar check to fix their mistakes, much like camera owners using photoshop to cover up their mistakes. It's the people that are in a position of doing the hiring, or purchasing, that have started to accept what would have been considered unacceptable a couple of years ago.  How good a story is or how good a photograph is doesn't always matter anymore as long as it fills a space.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 14, 2011)

Is this more because the market for many things is even more price driven now, than ever, or is it the fault of amateurs?


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## FatBoy (Mar 14, 2011)

I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.

Purely hypothetical situation:
Say my neighbor owns an auto body shop and I start doing "amateur" auto body repair out of my home garage.  Customers go to him and pay $1000 for something I'm willing to do for $300 but my work looks like sh!t.  Am I really taking food out of his mouth?  No, because people who want quality work are still going to him and only people who can't afford him and are ok with shoddy work are coming to me.  The customers I get would never go to him in the first place.

If you are a professional and losing customers maybe it's because you aren't keeping up with the times and don't have anything new to offer?  Surely you should be able to out perform these "amateurs" who don't produce anywhere near the quality of work you do.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 14, 2011)

FatBoy said:


> I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.
> 
> Purely hypothetical situation:
> Say my neighbor owns an auto body shop and I start doing "amateur" auto body repair out of my home garage.  Customers go to him and pay $1000 for something I'm willing to do for $300 but my work looks like sh!t.  Am I really taking food out of his mouth?  No, because people who want quality work are still going to him and only people who can't afford him and are ok with shoddy work are coming to me.  The customers I get would never go to him in the first place.
> ...


 

The problem is that people may associate your ****ty work with your neighbors garage, and then he has to spend time assuring his clients that his work is BETTER than yours, and his business is NOT associated with yours, and what his certifications are, and that his work is guaranteed.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 14, 2011)

I think the market is money driven, fewer bucks to go around so people are settling for less, this is where the amateurs come into play, because they may or may not have had a cutback, maybe not getting the same money they used to, fewer hours, they figure why not just make the money up with a camera. What then happens is that the potential customer that used to look for a photographer looks at the price before looking at the quality.  This really isn't anything new, it used to happen in the film days, but then there were fewer camera owners because of the film costs, processing, printing etc.  With digital that is not a concern so less gets more. So who pays for the amateurs trying to make up their lost money, the full time photographers. If I decided to start doing taxes using a $50 software program and charging $50 to do taxes, how many full time CA's would start to get complain, all of them. 

So as a guy trying to just make a living like everyone else is getting hit because someone with a camera and a full time job wants to make a little extra spending money.  I know how to do body work, I know how to paint as well, (I took classes years ago) but I wouldn't start doing it simply because I want to make a few extra bucks, I have too much respect for the guys that need the business and is more experienced. This applies to every job on the planet, so we don't need to start adding more examples.

Personally I have clients that I have had for over a decade, I change with the times, upgrade when I can, I'm not losing clients, neither are most of the photographers I know, they aren't getting enough new clients, this is where the flood of camera owners comes into play, doesn't matter if it's a friend of the family, and aunt or uncle, if they own a camera people will settle for that now. The average person doesn't care about quality, they don't know a great photo from a happy snap, read the comments on this forum, the word awesome gets used and the picture is out of focus, how is that awesome, and ask them to explain why it's awesome, they can't, they don't know the difference.


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## ghache (Mar 14, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> FatBoy said:
> 
> 
> > I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.
> ...


 


It also doesnt mean that you charge less that you work is ****.


I had my car bumper fixed in a "backyard garage" for 200$ when 3 body shop i visited quoted me 600$ for the same job they couldnt have done better.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 14, 2011)

At this point... the only proper response is.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 14, 2011)

lols, also bbq.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ghache,
 You just don't understand any of this. You never will.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 14, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> *The average person doesn't care about quality*


 
Tah dah!


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## Forkie (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> So as a guy trying to just make a living like everyone else is getting hit because someone with a camera and a full time job wants to make a little extra spending money.  I know how to do body work, I know how to paint as well, (I took classes years ago) but I wouldn't start doing it simply because I want to make a few extra bucks, I have too much respect for the guys that need the business and is more experienced. This applies to every job on the planet, so we don't need to start adding more examples.



There's absolutely nothing wrong with people making a little extra money on the side doing something that isn't their main job.  Hundreds, thousands, millions of people have more than one job or have extra little money makers to subsidise their income.  My father was a mechanical technician in the Air Force (now retired), but had hobbies in various other things such as painting and decorating, building computers and making wrought iron gates which he made for people and charged them for it to make a few extra quid.  What's the problem with that? 

If you have a skill and can charge for it but don't want to do it full time, do it part time or at weekends and make some extra pocket money.  It has nothing to do with "respect for professionals" in those fields - it has to do with using YOUR skills for YOUR gain.  If you have various skills, use all of them and if people are willing to pay, great!  

I find this "it's not fair, he's doing my job as well as his own" attitude a little childish.  If you're not taking advantage of the body work or painting skills you learnt then that's up to you, but don't knock other people for doing as they see fit with the skills they saw fit to learn.


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## epatsellis (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> ...Personally I have clients that I have had for over a decade, I change with the times, upgrade when I can, I'm not losing clients, neither are most of the photographers I know, they aren't getting enough new clients, this is where the flood of camera owners comes into play, doesn't matter if it's a friend of the family, and aunt or uncle, if they own a camera people will settle for that now. The average person doesn't care about quality, they don't know a great photo from a happy snap, read the comments on this forum, the word awesome gets used and the picture is out of focus, how is that awesome, and ask them to explain why it's awesome, they can't, they don't know the difference.


 

I've seen the same thing in over 20 years of being a commercial shooter, what was once a barrier to entry, a full studio with view cameras, lighting, etc. (at a cost approaching six figures), is now considered at the least a luxury by some, and totally unneccesary by others. The fact that having experience, control of the focal plane, image geometry and having a solid background in lighting is important is the only way to ensure a high quality image is lost on most photographers, art directors and clients today. My client base understands  this, and typically comes to me after spending a fortune with others, only to find soft images, poor focus control or images unusable for offset printing without significant compromises. The largest part of product/commercial work still is printed conventionally, and not understanding how to create images that will reproduce properly is the single biggest issue I see today. In fact, like you, I get a large amount of my income from fixing other peoples mistakes, and ultimately gaining a client in the process as well. I'm in the same boat as you, I've seen limited to no growth in my sector, while the work I see out there continues to get worse and worse. 

Typically, the majority of my work is shot in studio, with a view camera and scanning back, at a native resolution of 6,000 x 7200, as once you've gotten to the point of capture, a few mins isn't really that big of a deal, and having a high res file to work from makes life easier in so many ways later, when your client decides to use the image for billboards, posters, etc. A reference image is typically shot on chrome as well, and get's filed away with the job file, in the off chance that something bad ever happens to the digital image, I still have a 4x5 transparency that can be scanned. There's no comparision to images shot with a DSLR, from an overall image quality standpoint, some customers understand that and are willing to pay what it costs to do it right the first time, other's will have a friend, relative or employee shoot it, then wonder why the images aren't up to commercial standards or require hours of post processing to get a usable image. Overall, the cost are comparable or even higher, you can only get away with that once with a client before they start looking elsewhere.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2011)

I've said my piece on this, those that really deal with this understand what I'm talking about, those that don't, never will........ well not until that day their job is out sourced to the lowest bidder.


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## ghache (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I've said my piece on this, those that really deal with this understand what I'm talking about, those that don't, never will........ well not until that day their job is out sourced to the lowest bidder.


 
Maybe you could reconsider doing what you do for a living and do something else if your not making enought money  I heard only a small % will make it full time.


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## epatsellis (Mar 15, 2011)

ghache,
I think you would find, were you to look, a small group of us here on TPF that have, in fact, been making it full time for at least a decade or two. And over that time, seeing a decline in quality and expectations is what we're talking about. Never mind explaining to a client about licensing fees, creative costs, etc. There's a sense of entitlement by new photographers I've never seen before, as if they don't have to work their way up anymore. (maybe because they think they can buy their way to being a professional)

 I spent nearly a year loading film holders and doing general grip work before I even got close to a camera. And even today, my "creativity" is surpassed by the art director's "vision" and my job is to help him portray that vision. Sometimes you can advise and they will accept that advice, other times, it's not even an option. That is what commercial photography at the level I work at is, and I suspect a few of the others here as well.


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## Destin (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I've said my piece on this, those that really deal with this understand what I'm talking about, those that don't, never will........ well not until that day their job is out sourced to the lowest bidder.


 

I understand what your saying, and I tend to agree with you on alot of it. Most new photographers really don't know what they are doing with a camera. I know a lady that shoots portraits on full auto, and doesn't even know what the exposure triangle is. 

As for me, sure I've only been serious about photography for around 2 years, and I'm only 18. However I've shadowed pros at weddings, taken classes, read books, attended workshops, and I practice every chance I get. I don't claim to be a pro, and I do still have alot to learn. But I am able to make professional looking images in many cases, so I have no problem charging clients for my work in those cases. I still won't go near weddings because I don't have the gear to do it yet, however I shoot portrait sessions and sports to make money to cover equipment costs. 

If I wasn't selling some photos, I wouldn't be able to pay for gear, classes, or anything. I'm trying to work my way up and I teach myself something new about photography EVERY day of my life. Usually from blogs I follow, sometimes from magazines, sometimes from just going out and shooting. 

There are those just starting, and those who think that having a dslr makes them a professional. The latter are the problem.


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## ghache (Mar 15, 2011)

epatsellis said:


> ghache,
> I think you would find, were you to look, a small group of us here on TPF that have, in fact, been making it full time for at least a decade or two. And over that time, seeing a decline in quality and expectations is what we're talking about. Never mind explaining to a client about licensing fees, creative costs, etc. There's a sense of entitlement by new photographers I've never seen before, as if they don't have to work their way up anymore. (maybe because they think they can buy their way to being a professional)
> 
> I spent nearly a year loading film holders and doing general grip work before I even got close to a camera. And even today, my "creativity" is surpassed by the art director's "vision" and my job is to help him portray that vision. Sometimes you can advise and they will accept that advice, other times, it's not even an option. That is what commercial photography at the level I work at is, and I suspect a few of the others here as well.


 

I totally understand what your saying. Anyone should work thier way up but sometime people use different way. I totally agree with you when you say that your type of photography requires alot more since the clients you deal with are probably high profiles and required images that fit a specific application and they will deffinetly not hired some douche around the corner with a d40 and a kit lens with no expertise and talent. I didnt hear any one on here creating a thread " hey i only have a entry level DSLR with a kit lens and i have been asked to shoot a major fashion shoot with fashion mag, Should i call a make up artist and use a speedlight?" I really doubt that alot of newbies are taking that much business from you since the clients you deal with wants the high quality images your able to provide them.

I think the part where the newbies are getting more business from the full time photographers is with familly pictures, pets and all that stuff that someone with a decend camera and some lights can manage to learn on and makes some side money with. 
I am sorry but to all the professionals full time who gets pissed about people like me who has the luxury of working another job, rent a studio on the side , buy gears in between bills is willing to get little money to do something they really like to do well, i feel sorry for you to be insecure enough to cry about it. 

Dont you also think that if clients and peoples dont see the difference anymore between the professionals full time and the part time shooter end products, this might be a sign that these part time shooters are getting better and working thier way up producing quality images. Dont you think that the 20 year shooters that get business taken from them should bring thier photography to a higher level and create something different that will stands out?!

If the level of photography you offer to you clients is no better than the one the part time shooter offers at 1/2 the price well sorry pal but you might be failing, or the new photographer in town is becoming your concurence.

Its true that alot of wanna be photographers out there are really bad but i see and know alot of non professional shooter who does a GREAT job.
I also see alot professional who charges a alot of money for pictures that are also doing a mediocre work.
Last weekend i fixed some "full time professional" mistakes on a friend photos. 
One of my friend got maried last summer, gave 2500$ to a full time pro and received not so good pictures that do not reflect the work advertised at all and wanted me to fix her shots. 

Again this is just my non professional part time shooter opinion but hey, some pro here think we will never undersand but are insecure enough about thier work to come on here and **** talk and cry about thier situations.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ghache, you are the perfect example of not understanding, so I won't try and explain it to you again. I think there may be a bit of a language issue, so I'll give you that. As far as the small percentage, if you read back though everything i've said, maybe you will have noticed it was in one of my posts. I've been working as a full time photographer since 1975, you do the math on that one. I started shooting in 1969, and between 1970-1975 I was shooting everything, and I wasn't shooting for money, I wasn't taking jobs and doing anything for free, I was working in a darkroom learning that side of photography, I was learning how to use light.  So for five years I just learned how to become a photographer.  When I left high school I started shooting for a newspaper, I had more than just the basics, I was confident enough that I could do the work asked of me, and I did it very well, I built my client base, and I built my business.  There were no forums to ask questions, if I needed answers, I looked in magazines, I learned from my father, who started as a photographer in the mid 1950's and is still a photographer, and he freelanced all his life.  I think I can say that I'm not in the small percentage that won't make it as a photographer.

Picking up a camera doesn't make anyone a photographer, it just makes them a camera owner.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2011)

The part time shooters aren't getting better, the cameras and computer software are. Can you honestly tell me that if you were handed a camera that had no auto features, no autofocus, that you would be as good as you think you are? I realize that that film was then and this is a different generation, however the solid basics of photography are still the same, light is light, that hasn't changed, the only difference is that cameras have made it easier to shoot, it tells you when the exposure is off, it tells you when it is in or out of focus, it tells you when you may want to use the flash, it does everything but tell you how to compose a good image. If the photo isn't quite right use photoshop to fix it. You know photoshop the quicker fixer, I will admit that photoshop has saved a lot of images for both pros and amateurs, but it shouldn't be used to re-create a bad image, you shoot a wedding, eveyone looks great, except one person has their eyes closed, no problem, just cut and paste from another image, it is no longer a photo, it is a photo illustration. This is part of the problem, everyone expects every photo to be perfect, that's not the way photography works, if you have to use photoshop as a crutch, then you really aren't much of a photographer.


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## SrBiscuit (Mar 15, 2011)

this is why the true pros in *ANY* industry have to constantly push, and learn, and bust ass to stay above the amatures.

im a graphic/web designer...im 33.  does it concern me that a high school junior might be able to code circles around me for half my rate? sure. but rather than getting all worked up about it and arguing about it to a room of HS juniors, im doing my best to stay on top of industry trends, new techniques, languages, softwares...etc.

idk man. being a pro anything is tough, especially in this current market. at least the good ol' U.S of A.


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## ghache (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> Ghache, you are the perfect example of not understanding, so I won't try and explain it to you again. I think there may be a bit of a language issue, so I'll give you that. As far as the small percentage, if you read back though everything i've said, maybe you will have noticed it was in one of my posts. I've been working as a full time photographer since 1975, you do the math on that one. I started shooting in 1969, and between 1970-1975 I was shooting everything, and I wasn't shooting for money, I wasn't taking jobs and doing anything for free, I was working in a darkroom learning that side of photography, I was learning how to use light. So for five years I just learned how to become a photographer. When I left high school I started shooting for a newspaper, I had more than just the basics, I was confident enough that I could do the work asked of me, and I did it very well, I built my client base, and I built my business. There were no forums to ask questions, if I needed answers, I looked in magazines, I learned from my father, who started as a photographer in the mid 1950's and is still a photographer, and he freelanced all his life. I think I can say that I'm not in the small percentage that won't make it as a photographer.
> 
> Picking up a camera doesn't make anyone a photographer, it just makes them a camera owner.



I probably understand what you say more than you think, i am not retarded.

The only thing i say is you took the path you decided to take to get to the point you are right now, Like you said before, the easy access of dslrs brings alot more people in and even if photography and light stays the same, the photography business have changed and this is were i can see that you have problem with. We are not in the 70's anymore and most darkrooms are now converted in stock rooms.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2011)

I've been shooting with digital gear for 10 years, so I think i'm over the not shooting film stage of photography.  I would not have ever said that I thought you were retarded, I find the term insulting.  I did forget to add.  You are doing a wonderful job taking wonderful photos ( not that I've seen any) but am sure you are.  I was told to be kinder on this forum, seems that I hurt some feelings.


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## Destin (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> The part time shooters aren't getting better, the cameras and computer software are. Can you honestly tell me that if you were handed a camera that had no auto features, no autofocus, that you would be as good as you think you are? I realize that that film was then and this is a different generation, however the solid basics of photography are still the same, light is light, that hasn't changed, the only difference is that cameras have made it easier to shoot, it tells you when the exposure is off, it tells you when it is in or out of focus, it tells you when you may want to use the flash, it does everything but tell you how to compose a good image. If the photo isn't quite right use photoshop to fix it. You know photoshop the quicker fixer, I will admit that photoshop has saved a lot of images for both pros and amateurs, but it shouldn't be used to re-create a bad image, you shoot a wedding, eveyone looks great, except one person has their eyes closed, no problem, just cut and paste from another image, it is no longer a photo, it is a photo illustration. This is part of the problem, everyone expects every photo to be perfect, that's not the way photography works, if you have to use photoshop as a crutch, then you really aren't much of a photographer.


 
I don't know, can I shoot without any auto features, a rear lcd, or photoshop? Sit down old timer, this might shock you. I'm 18, and I enjoy shooting and developing film as much, if not more than shooting digital.

 I shoot almost all my landscape stuff on film still using my old minolta x-700 because I simply enjoy the feel of the camera and I appreciate the look of good black and white film photos. Oh, and I develop my own film too. 

Does that camera have an auto mode? yes. Do I use it? Never. I use the meter, and I have to keep in mind that it overexposes by about 1/2 a stop in certain conditions. 

When I'm shooting digital I'm either in Aperture Priority or Manual mode. A for sports because I'm aware that shooting full manual all the time doesn't make you a good photographer, knowing how to get the most out of your gear does. I shoot manual for portraits because I'm using OCF and the ambient light doesn't change much, if at all.. 

If it was cost effective I'd shoot film for portraits too, but the fact is I can just make alot more money doing it on digital, and I can be 100% sure that I got the photo. With film, you could NEVER be 100% sure that you had a good photo no matter how good you were. There was always a chance their eyes were closed or something. 

Do I use photoshop as a crutch? Nope. I just use it to retouch portraits (remove stray hairs and skin blemishes) and to make color corrections when needed. Big deal, before photoshop you edited your photos in the darkroom .THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, post production has ALWAYS been used to enhance/correct photos.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2011)

Good for you, nice to hear that someone takes a real interest in how photography really works.  As for the darkroom post production, I used to spot out dust with a brush and ink, using a real airbrush was an art. So the difference in retouching then and using photoshop, can't even compare the two. There was post production but it wasn't as simple as the click of a mouse.


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## ClickAddict (Mar 15, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> ............doesn't matter if it's a friend of the family, and aunt or uncle, if they own a camera people will settle for that now. The average person doesn't care about quality, they don't know a great photo from a happy snap,.........



Here's the issue.  In business there's a simple concept called Supply and Demand.  You've just said that some/many clients don't care about getting your quality work, they are ok with the average Joe.  The question is did the photographer buying a camera lessen someone's perception of what high quality was?  Do seeing 1000s of bad-mediocre pictures make one less appreciate the high quality ones?  Or was there simply no demand truly there in the first place?   If the first cars that ever came out were high end Rolls Royce, sure people would buy it was the only thing out there.  But start throwing in some low end Fords and the market for the Rolls will erode.  Does that mean people never wanted ford quality cars before? 

My point is, that perhaps rather than looking at it as the new guy lowering the market to something below what it should be for a quality product, could it be that these photographers actually found out_* what customers really wanted*_ (either intentionaly or by accident) rather than _*supplying a more costly product than the customer can even appreciate*_?  (You did say they can't tell the difference)
Some people will still want the Rolls for it's quality, but others simlpy want to get from point A to point B.   Props go to the guys who get them what they want.


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## epatsellis (Mar 15, 2011)

One of the prime motivators, pre Photoshop, to getting it right in camera was the excessive cost of retouching commercial work (think hundreds of dolars per hour, and a week or better turnaround). Once you learn to get it right in camera, you will never go back, period. In some ways, digital has helped me to explore options that previously would have been too expensive, but now are just a few clicks of the mouse.

Film still has it's place for me, especially when looking at long exposures or night work, though my stock of 4x5 film is slowly diminishing, I still process and print everything in house, both optically and digitally. Gladly transparencies are a thing of the past, as C41 films have such tremendous latitude for overexposure (essential for night work) and a contrast mask can bring that detail back into the reproduction range of paper.


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## epatsellis (Mar 15, 2011)

Also, I've noticed a disturbing trend, at least in my part of the country. 
Commercial work (and really any creative work) is priced in two parts, the creative fee and the licensing. 
Why have so many suddenly just given up on licensing images? 
You own the copyright to the image at the moment of creation and legally can control how it is reproduced, under what terms, etc.


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## MichiganFarts (Mar 15, 2011)

I read through all that, and I still didn't see through the flame fest, what the job was that the OP turned down.  If I was paid $1000 for a gig.  I've worked 60 hour weeks for less money before lol...


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## ghache (Mar 15, 2011)

haha right, I mean, if he turned down 700-800$ to do that job that he could have done in 1 day it was probably a hell of a job


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 15, 2011)

I've seen photographers that have been doing this forever (own a studio and charge a lot of weddings) that have horrible wedding portfolio!  I know for sure I can produce better pictures than he/she can.  I think all that matters is portfolio.  Yes, I am guilty of cutting prices because I need a couple of weddings for my portfolio and sample mount flush albums.


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## MichiganFarts (Mar 15, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I've seen photographers that have been doing this forever (own a studio and charge a lot of weddings) that have horrible wedding portfolio!  I know for sure I can produce better pictures than he/she can.  I think all that matters is portfolio.  Yes, I am guilty of cutting prices because I need a couple of weddings for my portfolio and sample mount flush albums.


 
Heck, I've been undercutting professionals since my dad let me use his old lawnmower.


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## vinith98 (Apr 3, 2011)

I feel that you did the right thing, if you feel that your doing the gig at a rate which is way less in your opinion then you have a complete right to decline it. What was shoot for though ?


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 5, 2011)

The bottom line is that anyone can charge or ask whatever they want.  If someone is asking $10,000 a day to shoot they may not be getting much work, but if that's what they believe they are worth, then great, if someone believes they are worth more than a $1000 a day and turn down $750, they can walk with their head held high because they believed that they are worth more, what they end up with is not working one day and not making any money. I'd rather have the $750 in my pocket.

I ask $20,000 to shoot weddings, I don't like shooting weddings. I have never been paid $20,000 to shoot a wedding, I have only ever shot 3 weddings in 35 years and didn't even come close to that number.  Who knows one day someone might say sure. I could probably do a pretty good job, but not as good as someone that has been shooting weddings for 35 years.

In my area of experience I know what the market will hold as far as a fee, but that changes depending on the client, being flexable will get you more work, and small paying shoots still add up.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 5, 2011)

epatsellis said:


> ghache,
> I think you would find, were you to look, a small group of us here on TPF that have, in fact, been making it full time for at least a decade or two. And over that time, seeing a decline in quality and expectations is what we're talking about. Never mind explaining to a client about licensing fees, creative costs, etc. There's a sense of entitlement by new photographers I've never seen before, as if they don't have to work their way up anymore. (maybe because they think they can buy their way to being a professional)
> 
> I spent nearly a year loading film holders and doing general grip work before I even got close to a camera. And even today, my "creativity" is surpassed by the art director's "vision" and my job is to help him portray that vision. Sometimes you can advise and they will accept that advice, other times, it's not even an option. That is what commercial photography at the level I work at is, and I suspect a few of the others here as well.



WOW!

What a load of BS! I spent even longer than you doing grunt work with commercial photogs and that was after 12 years of a very successful career as a PJ. I just had to learn about commercial work. I was a punk about it. And so were you once upon a time, no matter what you think. If I had an even smaller violin to play for you than I had intended to play for the OP, I would play it now.

Mind you, from the few times you actually show up on the forum, I think you know what you are talking about technically but this post is BS.

3 decades and still going. Stronger than ever actually in spite of the 8 year (or there about) hiatus. 

There has been a decline in quality expectation all over the place. Not just photography. I am a music freak and I have watched the expectation of music quality go up and down in such a weird way that I get a headache from it.

Photography, like just about everything else, is about business first. We are reminded of that here on the forum often enough. I have mentioned more than a few times that I am not the best photog but I have a certain business sense and that keeps me going. Or should I say, that got me started again.

Of course that's kind of forgetting the relationships I've built over the years, Yes, I'm an old fart.

And very happy about it.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 5, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> Good for you, nice to hear that someone takes a real interest in how photography really works.  As for the darkroom post production, I used to spot out dust with a brush and ink, using a real airbrush was an art. So the difference in retouching then and using photoshop, can't even compare the two. There was post production but it wasn't as simple as the click of a mouse.


 
Yeah, so did I, and it never involved an airbrush.

Either use the right words or shut up.


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 5, 2011)

Using what right words? an airbrush? You're saying that professional re-touchers never used airbrushes and ink to remove larger areas of photographs? I'll hold off saying anything until I understand what you  meant by "the right words"


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## Rocan (Apr 7, 2011)

photography isn't my profession; I'm GOOD at it, but I would not accept money for it as I wouldn't feel comfortable undercutting the price of the guys who do it for a living. So far I've had about three serious assignments; The most serious of them being the one I'm currently assigned to do, producing about 20 pictures that will be made into large prints and showcased in my highschools hallway. rather then accept money for the work (it is a substantial amount of editing as the location I have to shoot in has the worst lighting imaginable), I only ask for them to cover the cost of prints. That way I can sharpen my skills and when the time comes that I feel comfortable being paid for my work, I can charge a proper amount. 

Being a mechanic, however, I have often simply told people "no." When you begin dropping prices, people tell their friends about the amazing deal they got, and you get stuck being underpaid. When you are a professional (truly are; in a way that you can do everything you want with your tools without even thinking twice about it) people come to you because you can do it better then the other guy. 

Your time is worth what you charge for it. what seems like a little bit of work to us seems like an impossible task for the people paying you to do it; if it wasnt, they wouldn't be paying you to do it.


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 7, 2011)

Rocan, what you said about dropping prices and then people telling people what an amazing deal they got is absolultely true, and once the word is out, it really is hard to put prices up.


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