# Manual vs. Aperture Priority mode



## batmura (Feb 23, 2013)

I have a question about shooting manual versus A mode. I'm fairly new to photography and when I first started out I did a lot of reading and asking about shooting in manual mode. I learned a little about fiddling with the shutter speed to get the meter to indicate a 'correct' reading and managed to get some decent images. However, lately, I've been shooting mostly in A mode because once I select the f-number the camera will set everything else for me, which is basically the same thing as selecting M mode and then playing with the wheel on the camera. So I'd like to know what other reasons people have for choosing manual mode when A mode effectively can do the same thing.


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## Overread (Feb 23, 2013)

Aperture priority mode is great when you are setting the aperture for the shot and then basing the shutter speed on what the camera meters for the light present in the scene - adjusting ISO as needed to ensure a suitable shutter speed of course. For situations where you're basically just following the built in meter its a very versatile and easy mode to use, plus you've got exposure compensation for if you want to bias the setting to over or under expose what the meter is reading. 


Manual mode is there for those times when the cameras built in meter won't give you the right answer. This can vary based upon a few situations:

1) You're using flash as the dominant light source for all or part of the scene. Because the camera meter can only read the constant light present in the scene it can't take into account what the flash light would add. As such when flash light is dominant manual mode is often preferred because the camera meter just isn't any good for the situation.*

2) When your subject is going to move under varying lighting, but you want to retain the same constant exposure through the whole series of shots.

3) When you are using an external light meter to read the light and then using the settings suggested by its reading and not the cameras own light meter. 


In general manual mode is there for when you want something very specific, when you need the direct control because the camera's own meter won't perform to give you the results you want. Otherwise aperture priority will do much of what many need and indeed many photographers often shoot the most in aperture priority. 

Myself I tend to use aperture priority when doing most shooting - however for my macro where I'm shooting with the flash light dominant to the scene I'm always in manual mode 

The key is to learn how to use each of the modes and be able to shift between them; then you can choose which mode will work best for you in a given situation. 


*note you might shoot, check the histogram and shoot again when doing this or you could use an external handheld light meter to read the flash light effect at the point on the subject; or you could be working on prior experiences and using standard settings - depends on the situation and your experiences


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## pgriz (Feb 23, 2013)

^^^  What he said.  Excellent explanation, Overread.  

I'd add that if the scene you're shooting pretty much averages to 18% grey, you can go with the meter.  If, it is at least 1 stop darker or lighter, then you'll be fiddling with the exposure compensation if you're shooting Aperture priority.  If the scene is consistent in its tonality and lighting, then you can dial it in, check the histogram, and you're good to go.  If you're facing rather large differences (say, sun-dappled forest floor, or the sun playing peek-a-boo behind clouds), you may have to go to spot meter mode to be sure you're getting the right reading.

#2 in Overread's list is very important.  When you're shooting a series that will be looked at together, it can be disconcerting to see large differences in exposure within the same series, and in this situation, it may be better to have a single exposure for the whole set.  For instance, one of my uses of photography is to document external house inspections and wherever possible, I use a single exposure so that as we move from image to image in viewing with the clients, we see consistent tones in the same objects.  In setting this single exposure, I do take an incident meter reading, as well as checking specific spots with a spot-meter.  This gives me an exposure value where everything I want to be able to see will have some detail in it.

In deciding between the two modes, I use manual in situations where I have the time to get the exposure right, and when I need consistency of exposure.  I use Aperture-priority when things are fast-moving, or light is changing , or the scene tonality varies all over the place, and getting "a" shot is more important than getting the "perfect" exposure.


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## EIngerson (Feb 23, 2013)

Great advice from everyone above. As stated above, there are times when manual is the only way to go. Learning what works for you in any given situation is where the difference comes in. Multiple images combined in a pano will be another one of those times where manual will be a must. You'll see visible difference in how your camera metered each shot.


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## Rick58 (Feb 23, 2013)

The examples you guys gave are excellent. I just kind'a sit back and smile regarding how some things make a full circle.
I remember shooting B&W with a handheld meter and fully mechanical gear when "electronic" cameras came on the scene. 

There was no frame by frame adjustable ASA (ISO) unless you were shooting sheet film. There was no "Exposure Compensation" other then the photographers calculations and input.

 Then came electronics. "Automatic" was the thing and people were paying top dollar for it.

Now I sit here and read how people shoot manual all the time. Many times producing a blown out or blocked stylish B&W


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## EIngerson (Feb 23, 2013)

Rick, I have to admit, if digital never came about, I would not have gotten involved with photography. I have much respect for anyone that learned with film.


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## Rick58 (Feb 23, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> Rick, I have to admit, if digital never came about, I would not have gotten involved with photography. I have much respect for anyone that learned with film.


 
I wouldn't say that. There wasn't anything else so you wouldn't know any difference.

Unless you were shooting with a Kodak Instamatic, you HAD to learn the basics and how one setting would affect the others.


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## SCraig (Feb 23, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> The examples you guys gave are excellent. I just kind'a sit back and smile regarding how some things make a full circle.
> I remember shooting B&W with a handheld meter and fully mechanical gear when "electronic" cameras came on the scene.
> 
> There was no frame by frame adjustable ASA (ISO) unless you were shooting sheet film. There was no "Exposure Compensation" other then the photographers calculations and input.
> ...


I remember those days well   I still have an Olympus OM-2N from the 70's.  In its day that camera was the cat's meow.  I also remember the arguments that arose from having to buy a camera that was EITHER aperture priority OR shutter priority.  No single camera had both.

OP, don't get hung up on a shooting mode.  So many people go through this "I only shoot MANUAL mode!" as if it's a badge of honor or something.  All it really means is that you can look at the light meter display in the view finder and adjust the needle so it's centered as opposed to letting the camera do it for you.  EVERY mode on your camera (except maybe the "Scene" modes) has a purpose, and there are times when it will work better than any other mode.

The important thing to learn is WHEN and WHY to use one mode over the others to accomplish what you want to accomplish.  Many times, such as when depth of field is the important consideration, aperture priority is by far the best mode to use.  At other times, such as when shooting sports, shutter priority works best.  And there are also times, such as when shot to shot consistency is important or when a background will cause metering issues, that manual is the way to go.

Always using one mode to the exclusion of the others that your camera provides makes about as much sense as always using one f-stop or shutter speed or ISO to the exclusion of all others, you aren't using your camera to its fullest abilities.  They are adjustments, just as aperture, shutter speed, and ISO.  Learn to use them in conjunction with your other settings.


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## Rick58 (Feb 23, 2013)

Had a sassy pair of OM-1's here


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## SCraig (Feb 23, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> Had a sassy pair of OM-1's here



Olympus was coming out with some really innovative stuff in those days.  I never shot with an OM-1 but they paved the way for some really "Smart" cameras for their day.

The OM-2N was touted as being the first camera to read the exposure from the film as opposed to through the lens.  The difference, of course, being that it could continue to meter while the mirror was up.  I remember testing that right after I got mine by setting it up in my darkroom on a tripod and focused on the end of a film box.  I turned off all the lights, opened the shutter, and sat there for several minutes with the shutter open.  As expected, nothing happened since there was effectively no light there, not even a safelight on.  After a few minutes I struck a cigarette lighter near the subject and the shutter closed after a couple of seconds.   I processed the film and the exposure was dead on the money.  I was amazed since in that day something that "Smart" was unheard of.


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## 480sparky (Feb 23, 2013)

I shoot in Aperture mode to get the fastest shutter speed possible for the aperture and ISO I've chosen.


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## EIngerson (Feb 23, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > Rick, I have to admit, if digital never came about, I would not have gotten involved with photography. I have much respect for anyone that learned with film.
> ...



It was the developing that turned me off. It was always a hassle to me and I hated waiting to see what I got.


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## SCraig (Feb 23, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> It was the developing that turned me off. It was always a hassle to me and I hated waiting to see what I got.



That did turn into a chore sometimes.  Especially after coming home tired from shooting all day, but I still had to see what I got.  The instant gratification of digital is a wonderful thing


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## goodguy (Feb 23, 2013)

Tried few times A mode and somehow it doesnt work for me, dont know why but either the shutter gets too slow or ISO too high.
I found I work much better in M mode, my cameras and I like it that way, both of them.


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## 480sparky (Feb 23, 2013)

goodguy said:


> Tried few times A mode and somehow it doesnt work for me, dont know why but either the shutter gets too slow or ISO too high.
> ............



I can set a maximum ISO and minimum shutter speed.


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## SCraig (Feb 23, 2013)

goodguy said:


> Tried few times A mode and somehow it doesnt work for me, dont know why but either the shutter gets too slow or ISO too high.
> I found I work much better in M mode, my cameras and I like it that way, both of them.



Aperture priority mode doesn't mean that you won't have to open the aperture to get the proper exposure it simply means that the camera won't do it for you.  If you are getting shutter speeds that are too low or ISO that is too high then you there isn't enough light to be using the aperture you are trying to use.  If you tried to use the same combination of settings in manual mode they wouldn't work there either.


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## ph0enix (Feb 23, 2013)

In Aperture priority you're basically allowing the camera to make decisions for you (aside from the aperture setting).  In Manual you choose all the settings.  Remember that simply dialing to 0 often does not give you correct exposure.  Personally, I find that M is the way to go rather than messing with exposure bias settings.  You basically go below or above 0 if you don't agree with what the light meter is telling you.


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## goodguy (Feb 23, 2013)

480sparky said:


> goodguy said:
> 
> 
> > Tried few times A mode and somehow it doesnt work for me, dont know why but either the shutter gets too slow or ISO too high.
> ...



Thats posible but some days I can shoot at a minimum of  1/30 and somedays 1/60, depends how tired I am so I find going M is the simplest and easiest way for me to shoot.
Also being a more technically oriented person I love dialing all the correct info (Apature, Shutter and ISO) I love all this figuring out what to do, its not a choire for me-its a pleaserable process and an integral part of my shooting experience.

Yes I know I am weird that way LOL


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## batmura (Feb 23, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> Multiple images combined in a pano will be another one of those times where manual will be a must.


  I've never shot panos before. Does this mean one can only do them in M mode? Interesting.


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## goodguy (Feb 23, 2013)

But the 2 things I always leave in Auto is White Balace and Focus.
I didnt get how to work so well with the white balace (so far) and my eye sigt will not allow me to manualy focus.


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## Joves (Feb 23, 2013)

goodguy said:


> But the 2 things I always leave in Auto is White Balace and Focus.
> I didnt get how to work so well with the white balace (so far) and my eye sigt will not allow me to manualy focus.



If you get a focusing screen with a split, and micro prism ring then it is easy. The nice thing about the new cameras that I like is they focus wide open, so you do not get the darkened prism when you stop down. But you get that now with some of the older lenses if you use them, in that case you merely focus then stop down. 

I shoot in Manual all the time as ph0enix stated correct exposure is not always in the middle. Sometimes you have to either under or over expose on it. I find at least for the Nikons I have had is that in Aperture they over expose in bright light, and under expose in lower light. I change Aperture, Shutter, and ISO as needed to get the shot. Now granted in Aperture you can use Exposure Compensation to off set problems, but why when you can do that with Manual, and do it faster. 
I too started in film in 67" when my grandfather gave me a 120 that he had, along with some of the guides of the day, well actually from the 30s more like to learn from. Mine was a compact that you had to adjust the aperture, focus for distance, and the shutter speed. I learned to take notes to learn where I made mistakes. When all of the auto cameras came around I had clerks always trying to get me to get rid of my Pentax MX for the new auto cams. It never happened. I have nothing against technology but for me it was not what I wanted. Now that I am much older I like having the convenience of AF at times, and I love that I can now change my ISO as I wish, no more waiting for the roll to be done, but I still like to control all of my settings. I do not care how people shoot to tell you the truth, it is their equipment. Also I do not see shooting Manual as some badge of honor either, it is just my preference in shooting, I also do not look at people shooting film as hipsters. Shoot whatever works for you, or whatever the conditions require.


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## 480sparky (Feb 23, 2013)

batmura said:


> I've never shot panos before. Does this mean one can only do them in M mode? Interesting.



If you don't shoot panos in M (or otherwise 'lock' your exposure settings), the exposure may change from one frame to the next.  This may make it difficult, if not impossible, for your stitching software to stitch the images together.


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## 480sparky (Feb 23, 2013)

goodguy said:


> Thats posible but some days I can shoot at a minimum of  1/30 and somedays 1/60, depends how tired I am so I find going M is the simplest and easiest way for me to shoot.
> Also being a more technically oriented person I love dialing all the correct info (Apature, Shutter and ISO) I love all this figuring out what to do, its not a choire for me-its a pleaserable process and an integral part of my shooting experience.
> 
> Yes I know I am weird that way LOL



That's fine, but if I'm shooting fast action in constantly-changing lighting conditions, I'll default to A-priority with a max. ISO and min. shutter.  That way, when the lighting drops, my ISO will increase in order to maintain a higher shutter speed.  Once the light increases, the ISO will drop automatically.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 23, 2013)

As I shoot most sporting events indoors where light conditions that are constant I will shoot all manual.  If I am shooting outdoors where the light conditions are constantly changing I  still shoot all manual and adjust the iso, usually keeping the aperture and shutter speed the same.  A lot depends on how drastic the light changes are as well.

It all depends on how comfortable people are with their own cameras. Learning how to set everything themselves is something to work towards, but certainly not something everyone needs or wants to learn.  Some people just like to turn the camera on and away they go without thinking about anything, that's the big easy with digital, and there isn't anything wrong with taking pictures this way.


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## Joves (Feb 23, 2013)

I agree. It has always been this way, you had people that never wanted to shoot anything more than a Paraniod, or Instatragic camera. That was their choice and if it worked for them good.


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## Mully (Feb 23, 2013)

I used to buy film in bulk, color test the lot number for shift.  At anyone time I would have 4-5 hundred sheets 5x5 and 200 sheets of 8x10 on hand.  Did film tests every few days as color atthe lab would change.....lots of extra work .


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## goodguy (Feb 24, 2013)

480sparky said:


> goodguy said:
> 
> 
> > Thats posible but some days I can shoot at a minimum of  1/30 and somedays 1/60, depends how tired I am so I find going M is the simplest and easiest way for me to shoot.
> ...



In that case your way of doing thing is the best way.
I dont like sports or fast moving things to shoot so I dont face your problems.
Everybody has their special needs and the solution will vary from one person to another.


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## EIngerson (Feb 24, 2013)

batmura said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > Multiple images combined in a pano will be another one of those times where manual will be a must.
> ...



You can do it in other modes, but the metering will be different from frame to frame. Where as manual mode will lock the meter and give you the same exposure for each frame. 

There's no better way to understand it than to do it though. Take one in aperture priority and one on manual and you'll se exactly what we're saying. That's how I learn anyway.


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## weepete (Feb 24, 2013)

I used to shoot quite a lot in av and tv modes, right now I'm find I shoot in manual mode more and more. I guess it's because it gives me a little more control in those difficult lighting conditions. Now that I'm reasonably used to it, it doesn't take me much longerto set up and change settings either. 

Mind you I may well try shooting in av mode for a bit again and see where it takes me!


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

Set your ISO manually, take it off auto. The only thing I let the camera do in Aperture priority is choose the shutter speed.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

But then you have to adjust your ISO every time you change apeture unless it's bright enough that you're always ok at base ISO.  That just gets annoying.  And if you get caught up in the moment and forget the ISO part you either get motion blur, or more noise than you need to.

I'm struggling at times to remember this with the 5dmk2 I got for xmas (from myself); the auto ISO is next to worthless for people photography with a 35mm lens (which just happens to be my most used lens and most common subject) - 1/30th is just not fast enough for shooting people, and even worse with kids.

It's been at least 4 years since I had a camera without decent auto iso, so I'm completely out of the habbit of remembering to constantly change it and it's soo frustrating remembering to do something that I was happy not to have to do for so long.

Unlearning 4 years worth of habbit is hard, and I've ruined a lot of otherwise good shots because of it :banghead:

I'm actually considdering shooting Manual mode full time, just to force myself to actually look at the shutter speed as well as the apeture :crazy:


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> But then you have to adjust your ISO every time you change apeture unless it's bright enough that you're always ok at base ISO.  That just gets annoying.  And if you get caught up in the moment and forget the ISO part you either get motion blur, or more noise than you need to.
> 
> I'm struggling at times to remember this with the 5dmk2 I got for xmas (from myself); the auto ISO is next to worthless for people photography with a 35mm lens (which just happens to be my most used lens and most common subject) - 1/30th is just not fast enough for shooting people, and even worse with kids.
> 
> ...



You absolutely DO NOT have to change your ISO every time you change the Aperture. You have to change the ISO when the conditions change. If you set your ISO to 200 on a nice sunny day and change your Aperture, the camera will change the shutter speed to expose in the middle. Likewise with indoors using 800 and so on. You set the ISO to an acceptable setting to achieve the the aperture you want and still have the shutter speed to get acceptable sharpness.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Of course you do - changing the apeture *is *changing the conditions at the sensor - close the apeture 1 stop and the world gets twice as dark as far as the sensor is concerned!! 

If you're at ISO 800 indoors, and go from f4 to f2.8, then you can drop your ISO to 400 - and should do for better noise - if you were happy with the shutter speed.

Similarly, if you were at f2.8 1/60 ISO 400, and went to F4, you'd need to go up to ISO 800 to maintain 1/60 - otherwise the camera will drop it to 1/30 and you'll get motion blur (depending on subject).

The only time you don't need to worry about ISO is when it's very bright and going from say f2.8 1/1000 ISO 100 to f4 1/500 ISO 100 makes no difference to you as both shutter speeds are fast enough and ISO is already at base.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Of course you do - changing the apeture *is *changing the conditions at the sensor - close the apeture 1 stop and guess what - the world just got twice as dark as far as the sensor is concerned!!
> 
> If you're at ISO 800 indoors, and go from F4 to f2.8, then you can drop your ISO to 400 - and should do for better noise.
> 
> ...



Wrong, you don't worry about shutter speed. the camera does. If you set the ISO at 400 and change from F2.8 to F8 your shutter speed is going to slow down. That's it. The point you brought up was the same thing I said, you changed your environment. For example, if you go from outside to indoors you will change your ISO. If you stay out doors and take a photo of your kid at F2.8 and then change aperture to F8 and snap one you'll only change the depth of field. The camera will automatically change the shutter speed to give you the exact same exposure.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

In that case I think my camera must be faulty - things seem to get all blury at slow shutter speeds for me.  Obviosuly that doesn't happen for you :raisedbrow:

Seriously?  You can freezy in motion a child running about with your shutter speed at 1/10th second? 

Cause 1/10th is what your camera will pick if you go from f2.8 @ 1/80th to f8 without changing ISO.


Unless you're taking about shooting landscapes from a tripod you DO need to worry about shutter speed, regarless of whether it's you or your camera changing it.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Seriously?  You can freezy in motion a child running about at 1/10th second shutter speed?
> 
> 1/10th is what your camera will pick if you go from f2.8 @ 1/80th to f8 without changing ISO.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? Where do you come up with 1/10th?

Note, before we go any further, This is just an internet debate and please don't read my type as "bullyish" or anything of the sort.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

There are a lot of threads and websites that explain how exposure works....


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> There are a lot of threads and websites that explain how exposure works....



LOL, You should read them. What you just posted is for whatever light you are currently standing in. (your environment) That means you have to change your ISO. Once you have an ISO that gives you acceptable shutter speeds for the "environment" you are in, you don't have to change it again until you leave that environment. 


Anyway, I'm over it. If you want the camera to pick it for you just use the green box.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Ok, so lets assume you have your camera set at ISO100


If you pick f2.8, you camera will for example pick 1/80th of a second shutter speed so that the scene is properly exposed.  And 1/80th is fine and dandy for most things with normal lenses and and "normal" subjects.

If you close down to f4, that's half as much light coming in through the apeture, and it will pick 1/40th to properly expose
If  you close down to f5.6, that's half as much light again coming in  through the apeture, and it will pick 1/20th to properly expose
If you close down to f8, that's half as much light again coming in  through the apeture, and it will pick 1/10th to properly expose

By  the time yuo get to this point, unless your camera is on a tripod and  your subject is static, you're just going to be photographing blur.

Raising your ISO to 200 doubles the sensitivity and the camera will up the shutter speed back to 1/20th
Raising your ISO to 400 doubles the sensitivity again and the camera will up the shutter speed back to 1/40th
Raising your ISO to 800 doubles the sensitivity again and the camera will up the shutter speed back to 1/80th

back where we stared.

So to go from f2.8 to f8 with a constant shutter speed, you need to go from ISO 100 to iso 800

Which is annoying, as all I wanted to do is go from f2.8 to f8, not do that then took at me shutter speed, see it's in the toilet, hold down the iso button and crank it up until it's exceptable, _then_ take my shot.  Back before Auto ISO get invented, this seemed fine and reasonable.  Now years later, going to a camera that doesn't have it is just "AAAGH"!


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> ralphh said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of threads and websites that explain how exposure works....
> ...



This...

I mentally pick out what ISO I am going to use for the situation I am in. I rarely change it unless I go into a different room or someone turns on a light. One I have that picked out I will change the f-stop and shutter speed a bunch.

Sounds like you are making extra work for yourself. (this is to Ralphhy)


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

So I should just pick an ISO and ignore the fact that when i change apeture I might get unacceptably low shutter speeds  /  pick a really high one and get more noise than I needed to when I open up the apeture?

Sounds like a pretty sloppy way of taking photos.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

Okay, if I'm at ISO 100 @ F2.8 and my camera picks 1/80th I'm not going to stay at ISO 100. That's why I said "for the conditions".  If I'm outside shooting motocross on a sunny day I'll leave my ISO at 200 all day, AND change aperture all day to get the depth of field I want. I'll never touch my ISO unless the clouds roll in and totally grey it out. 

Likewise if I'm in my house messing around during the day. I'll stick ISO 800 (or whatever ISO get's the shutter speed I want at the time) and never change it unless I change the environment (i.e add a flash) I don't change the ISO unless my shutter speed becomes unacceptable. 

I also do not change the ISO EVERY TIME I change my aperture. And I definitely will not let my camera pick it for me.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> And I definitely will not let my camera pick it for me.



Well maybe you should - then it would be at a more appropriate value 

There's no advantage to shooting at ISO 800 @ 1/400th when you could be shooting ISO 200 @ 1/100

Just makes no sense to me - why have more noise than you need to?  Why not optimise your ISO?

I know what shutter speeds I need to photo people that are more or less static - it's about 1/60th, so I want to be as close to that as possible, not suddenly be at 1/500 because I went from f4 to f1.4.  I still want to be at 1/60th and drop my ISO cause being at 1/500 does nothing for me, as where dropping my ISO does.



Also, if you don't change it when you change apeture, there's not much point changing it when the light changes either - it's all the same thing in the end


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> That's why I said "for the conditions".



Yes, and even then it's about knowing what you want the end result to look like.  I recently shot some photos at ISO 200 f-11 with a 3 minute exposure. Why? Well I wanted a night shot of a thicket, that wasn't super grainy and very sharp. Sure I could have gotten the exposure time down to 30 seconds with using a high ISO and a large f-stop, but I know what I wanted and adjusted the setting accordingly.


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> There's no advantage to shooting at ISO 800 @ 1/400th when you could be shooting ISO 200 @ 1/100




I can think of a 100.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

the important part of that sentense was "WHEN YOU COULD BE".  That doesn't include stopping action.  If it' blury at 1/100 then you *can't* reasonably be at that shutter speed.

So assuming we've frozen the action identically regardless of 1/100 or 1/400, please list out your 100 advantages of using higher ISO


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > And I definitely will not let my camera pick it for me.
> ...



And that's where we agree. lol. I wasn't claiming to be wasteful either. No one is going to have a leg to stand on telling me there's a difference in 100 or 400 or 800 ISO when it comes to noise.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Seriously?  You can't see the difference between ISO 100 and 800?


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Seriously?  You can't see the difference between ISO 100 and 800?



With todays cameras? Absolutely not. I shoot with the 5D MK III and no I see no difference.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Hmm, fair comment perhaps.

What about ISO 800 and 6400  exactly the same number of stops.  If I need ISO 6400 at f4, I only need iso 800 at f1.4.  Would you shoot at 6400 when you could have 800?

Dunno about the mk3, but the 5dmk2 does NOT look the same at 800 and 6400.


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> And that's where we agree. lol. I wasn't claiming to be wasteful either. No one is going to have a leg to stand on telling me there's a difference in 100 or 400 or 800 ISO when it comes to noise.



Long exposures and high action situations.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

This is ISO 6400. I changed the white balance. other than that it's SOOC.



Lacrosse-2 by Ingerson Photo, on Flickr


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Ha, guess Canon weren't just sat on their @rses for 4 years between the mk2 and mk3   Still doesn't change the fact that apeture affects shutter speed 

@Runnah, did you not read this argument from the start, or are you being awkward on purpose 

This argument started speciffically about it being annoying when shooting portraits.  Not high action, not long exposure.

On  a 5Dmk2, when you're struggling a bit for light to shoot a portrait,  you're constantly juggling ISO as you change apeture and it's annoying  if you're used to Auto ISO that doesn't think 1/30th is a good speed to  use.

What was this thread about again?  Did we hijack it or are we still adding value?  Can anyone remember? :lmao:


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> @Runnah, did you not read this argument from the start, or are you being awkward on purpose



I like to jump in on situations not fully know what is going on. I find it helps my keep on my toes.

I just saw you making incorrect statements and thought I would chime in.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

I think we did. lol. Believe me, I absolutely agree with you on "how to use" ISO. But, if I'm going to be in AV and not manual I'm not worried about it that much.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

runnah said:


> ralphh said:
> 
> 
> > @Runnah, did you not read this argument from the start, or are you being awkward on purpose
> ...



LOL

Incorrect when taken out of context maybe.  It is not incorrect to say that on a camera when it DOES notice, using a much higher ISO _than you need to in order to get the result you want _makes no sense


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## runnah (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> It is not incorrect to say that on a camera when it DOES notice, using a much higher ISO _than you need to in order to get the result you want _makes no sense



Letting your camera make decisions for you is the first step towards the mechanical uprising. But yes, cameras can be dumb with the way it decides to "improve" the photo. I always chuckle when I put mine into "P" mode and see what the exif data shows for settings.


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## amolitor (Feb 26, 2013)

I, for one, welcome our new camera overlords.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

amolitor said:


> I, for one, welcome our new camera overlords.



WTF? LOL.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Me too - I would love to let the camera look after ISO - which I don't really care about; I just want it to be as low as possible and give me a useable shutter speed - I just wish it could do it properly, not use shutter speeds a geologist would call long when I use a wide angle len!! :banghead:


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## LungFish (Feb 26, 2013)

Whatever effect you're trying to achieve with auto-iso, i wouldn't trust the camera to achieve it. The only time the camera can think properly is when there is only one possible answer. 

I don't like your example anyway because it sounds like a job for flash.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

*sigh*

ok, on your D5000, on the auto-iso menu, you can set a minimum shutter speed, as well as max iso.

So you can say "never set the shutter below 1/60th" and it won't.  The 5D2 doesn't have this (5D3 does tho) and it's a pain to go back to a camera that doesn't have it.  _That's the only point I was making._

Sheesh, I can't believe I'm getting flamed for thinking that a feature that pretty much every camera has these days is good idea.


As for using flash, it's not unreasonable to use a fast prime wide open, then want to close down a little and need to bump up the ISO a stop but not attach a flash, but not want to be shooting there all the time if it's not needed.


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## TCampbell (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Ha, guess Canon weren't just sat on their @rses for 4 years between the mk2 and mk3



Actually, you should be fine with ISO 6400 on your 5D Mk II.  

This was shot with a 5D II at ISO 6400:




Chris Koza in Concert by Tim Campbell1, on Flickr

Is there noise in it?  Yes... the next image over in the Flickr "set" is a 100% crop on his face (from the same photo as this one) and at that resolution you can definitely see the noise.  At web resolutions the noise is still pretty tame.  At ISO 800 you should have great difficulty detecting noise in your images.

Note this is because you own a 5D II.  I can think of lots of cameras that would have obvious noise levels at ISO 800.  Most newer cameras don't have a problem.  Older cameras will struggle.  I was just reading a review of the Pentax K-30 in an issue of Pop Photo on a plane flight and was pretty surprised to see that ISO 800 is pretty much as high as it gets.  Any ISO above that was rated "unacceptable" by the reviewers.  In comparison, they gave the 5D III the same moderate score at ISO 25,600 and it didn't become "unacceptable" until 51,200.

Meanwhile back to the original discussion...

When I approach any shot, what I WANT is the luxury of using any ISO, any aperture, or any shutter speed.  That's what I want ... but I don't always get what I want.

Here's my thought process & preference for what modes I use and why.

1)  If I'm not shooting action and I have plenty of light, my preference is to use aperture priority mode (Nikon "A", Canon "Av").  That's because I now have the luxury of controlling the depth of field to anything I want.  I'm not so much thinking of this as setting the aperture just arbitrarily... I'm setting it for depth of field purposes.  The "plenty of light" stipulation I mentioned says that I don't have to worry about shutter speeds that are too slow for a hand-held shot (BTW, mini-rant here...  I am NOT averse to carrying a tripod around... something I do quite often.  As a photographer, be willing to do what you _need_ to do to get the shot right.  No being lazy about hauling gear or walking to the right location, etc.  and then blaming the camera or conditions later.  If it was _possible_ to get the shot by any means, and you didn't get the shot, then that's _your_ fault.  Not the equipment.  The equipment is, for the most part, not allowed to vote on how you take the shot.  You make the decisions... you take the responsibility.  )

2)  If I am shooting action, then I don't necessarily have the luxury of shooting at any speed.  Now we've got a minimum shutter speed limit.  I switch to shutter speed priority (Nikon "S", Canon "Tv") and set the speed to whatever it needs to be... whether I'm trying to create deliberate motion blur or freeze action.

3)  If I don't trust the light meter (high key and low key shots are good examples) then I pull out the incident light meter and find out how much light I _really_ have.  I have two of them... a small compact incident meter, and a larger full-function meter.

There are lots of nuances to this.  At event photography I often use aperture priority but set an exposure compensation bias. There's a lot of low-key conditions.  The camera wouldn't naturally get the exposure right, but since I know that it'll probably consistently over-expose by about 1-1/3rd stops, I can just dial in the compensation rather than follow rule #3.  This is especially important since, at a concert, the lights are often varying rapidly and I'd _never_ keep up with the rapidly changing conditions if trying to shoot entirely in manual mode.

Most of the time, I use Av on my camera.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

What I want is the luxury of jus t picking an apeture and forgetting the rest because I set my shutter speed _once_, on the auto-iso menu, not every shot.  _Because that's what I've been used to recenly_.  I'm happy to set it as needed, but sometimes I forget and it's annoying.  End of story.  

If you bought an old manual exposure camera and occationally forgot to set the shutter speed because you're used to apeture priority, you might say "wow, didn't realise how good semi-auto was, sometimes I forget to set shutter speed when I'm mid-flow, and it's annoying that I do that".  

Same thing here.  I'm fully understand how exposure, and the camera works.  I just sometimes forget that it's less automated on the 5D2 than on the cameras I've owned for the last 4 years.

What makes it doubly annoying that it's lens length speciffic - the 5D auto iso works fine for long lenses, but pooly for wide ones for shooting portraits.   I don't own a zoom luckily - it'd be even worse with zooms; if you have a 24-70, you'll get sharp shots at 70mm, but zoom out and you'd get blurry ones at 24mm.

It's tripply annoying because it's exactly the same as (or better than) the cameras I owned for 6 years before that, so it shouldn't be as hard as it is to get back into the habbit of keeping an eye on shutter speed again as it is.


Ironically, when this started, I said I was considderig going full Manual mode (which I am perfectly comfortable using), just to help be get back into the mindset of keeping an eye on shutter speed, and now I'm being told I shouldn't let the camera pick things for me by people who are using Apeture priority :waiting:


For those not using Auto-ISO on a more modern camera, I suggest you try it - you can set minimum acceptable shutter speed, max ISO, and then the camera will either use 1/focal length, or your minimum shutter speed, which ever is greater.  Some have even more options.   You'll always get sharp results if you've set you minimum shutter speed correctly, and you'll always be using the minimum ISO you need to get it.


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## TCampbell (Feb 26, 2013)

ralphh said:


> What I want is the luxury of just picking an apeture and forgetting the rest because I set my shutter speed _once_, on the auto-iso menu, not every shot.  _Because that's what I've been used to recenly_.  I'm happy to set it as needed, but sometimes I forget and it's annoying.  End of story.
> 
> If you bought an old manual exposure camera and occationally forgot to set the shutter speed because you're used to apeture priority, you might say "wow, didn't realise how good semi-auto was, sometimes I forget to set shutter speed when I'm mid-flow, and it's annoying that I do that".
> 
> ...




I don't believe it was anyone's intent to "flame" you (perhaps I'm wrong).  

I am concerned about a couple of points you mentioned above.

You mentioned that ISO and auto-ISO are lens focal-length specific.  That's not true.  Exposure is exposure.  The lens has nothing to do with it.  If you use an incident light meter and it says you can take a shot at ISO 400, f/4, and 1/125th of a second... then you can take that shot using that exposure with ANY CAMERA and ANY LENS as long as the camera and lens can accommodate those settings (the light meter has no idea what camera and lens you own.)  If I take off my 24-70mm lens and attach my 70-200mm lens, the exposure choices available to me don't change (in my case both lenses can provide f/2.8).  Only the focal length choices change.  Since focal lengths affect the depth of field, the depth of field changes as well.

Long focal length lenses are generally preferred for portraits because they do several flattering things... (a) they don't create wide-angle distortion and (b) the compression effect on the lens also compresses the depth of field which makes it easier to get a pleasantly blurred background when using a long focal length lens.

If you're getting sharp focus at 70mm you should definitely not get soft focus at 24mm.  That's because the wide-angle focal length stretches the depth of field.  Anything that could be in focus at 70mm also be in focus at 24mm... and in fact quite a bit more will be in focus.  It's harder to create a deliberately blurred background at 24mm.  The lower the focal ratio, the greater the depth of field.  I have a 14mm f/2.8 prime.  It's pretty much impossible to get a pleasantly blurred background with that lens no matter what you do.  In fact the depth of field is so generous that you can pretty much just dial the focus ring to 3' and forget it for the rest of the day... everything will probably be in acceptable focus (or at least very close to it.)

I don't believe anyone took issue with you preferring to use the Av mode.  I use the Av mode myself.

Where I think you ran into opposition was when you said that if you used Av and changed your aperture down by a stop then you'd need to remember to go set your ISO up by a stop to compensate.  The whole point of the semi-auto modes is that you set one thing and the camera does the rest for you.  

You later described that if you did not do this, then you'd end up with unacceptably slow shutter speeds for hand-held photography.  We would suggest that if you are shooting subjects that don't sit still and require a fast enough shutter speed, then perhaps you should consider shooting in shutter speed priority mode.  

If you set auto-ISO and have a low-focal ratio lens, and use shutter priority mode (Tv) then the computer will use the shutter speed you require, and it will first go for a low focal ratio and THEN start boosting ISO (automatically). In other words... the camera will do exactly what you want and have been doing in Av mode... except you mentioned you are frustrated with having to remember to keep an eye on the shutter speed and ISO when in Av mode.  The 5D II avoids going over ISO 3200 when in "auto ISO" mode (even though you can manually set a higher ISO.)  On many cameras you can set the auto-ISO limit.  I can do this on my 5D III.  I cannot do this on my 5D II.

The 5D II body is designed to let you do everything without taking your eye away from the viewfinder.  Make sure the on-off switch is in the position that points to the rear selection dial (so the dial is enabled).  In manual mode you can control the shutter with your index finger, the aperture with your thumb, and remember that the ISO is on the top of the camera next to the LCD backlight button (it's the right-most button out of the three large buttons on top.. the backlight button is to the right but it's a tiny button.  On the 5D III those buttons all have flat tops except for the ISO button, which has a dimple sticking up (like the F and J keys on a typewriter keyboard) so that you can find the button without even looking.  On a 5D II you have to remember which button it is, but with practice it becomes automatic to find it.

So the bottom line is:  We agree... that would be frustrating.  But I think you may find there's a mode to do what you want. Try shooting in Tv mode and see if it doesn't get you the results you are looking for with less fuss than you are currently experiencing.


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## ralphh (Feb 26, 2013)

Really, none of that answers any of it, so i'll try and break it out one last time... after that i give up  this really wasn't worth this much discussion 

When i say auto iso is lens speciffic, what i mean is it will aim for 1/local length.. So for a 200mm lens it'll pick 1/200 and for a 30mm lens it'll pick 1/30

This is designed to prevent camera shake.

The trouble with that is it doesn't necessarily stop subject movement; you generally need around 1/60 for a portrait - it depends on 
your subject and how still they can sit - kids more, adults less normally.. A similarly framed shot at 35mm is just as prone to subject movement as a 200mm.

So with auto iso, if you put on a 200mm lens you'll get a shutter speed that can freeze your subject, if you put on a 35mm one, you wont.

Camera manufacturers know this and have added the minimum shutter speed option. Nikon about 4 years before canon, at least on the higher end models.

Regardless of whether you use Tv or Av you'll need to adjust your iso up from base to keep the shutter speed above 1/60th (for example) when taking a portrait if light is lower than the point where every aperture you want to use gives you a good shutter speed at base iso, and you can either change your iso a lot so you're always using the lowest iso you can get away with, or go with the approach of set it high enoug to cover the apertures you want to use  and leave it there. I prefer to change it. What i prefer more is to be able to set a minimum shutter speed and have the camera change it.

Wasn't asking for help, just saying it's frustrating taking a step back in terms of camera automation and not being able to remember to do something i used to do without thinking about. It's amazing how dependent you get on these aids. If i went back to a film camera now my head would probably implode. Or i'd actually do me some good lol.

I'm certainly not going to shoot Tv and decide not to go below a certain shutter speed as that limits my aperture options - i do actually care what my aperture is beyond the effect it has on exposure.   Any anyway, I'm so set in my ways with how I shoot after 15 years on Av, i'd just be looking at the aperture change as i turned the dial, regardless of whether the camera was in Av or Tv :lmao:

I should have gone straight from 1Dmk2 to 5Dmk2, without a trip over to D700 in the middle - damn nikon and their well thought-out firmware!!

One day when the 5D3 is a reasonable price second hand this issue will go away again lol

Part of the problem is region and season specific - I'm needing to use iso 1600 at f2.8 in the middle of the afternoon indoors at this time of year in England - even right next to a south facing window  if i hop up to f5.6 i need iso 6400, but i don't want to leave it there when i go back to f2.8.


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2013)

Well, I give up.


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