# t3i causing noise, time to upgrade. but stuck b/t 6D, 7D, 60D, 70D



## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

As in the title ive noticed that i havent been very happy with my rebel t3i and its tendency to create noise (even at low ISO) and decided to start saving up for a better body camera and sell my camera with 3 filters for about $450. the only lens i have right now is a 50mm f1.8. Ill probs just buy a camera body and stick with the 50mm for a while. I primarily shoot automotive photography. Im torn (and confused) on the differences between a 6D, 60D, 7D, and 70D. what are the extra "0's" mean? I dont wanna spend more than $1000 on a body and will probs buy one off craigslist or used off amazon. Would it be risky to buy refurbished off amazon? Can anyone point out the main differences between these 4 cameras and tell me what will be the best buy for me? any help is hugely appreciated! Thank you!


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K said:


> As in the title ive noticed that i havent been very happy with my rebel t3i and its tendency to create noise (even at low ISO) and decided to start saving up for a better body camera and sell my camera with 3 filters for about $450. the only lens i have right now is a 50mm f1.8. Ill probs just buy a camera body and stick with the 50mm for a while. I primarily shoot automotive photography. Im torn (and confused) on the differences between a 6D, 60D, 7D, and 70D. what are the extra "0's" mean? I dont wanna spend more than $1000 on a body and will probs buy one off craigslist or used off amazon. Would it be risky to buy refurbished off amazon? Can anyone point out the main differences between these 4 cameras and tell me what will be the best buy for me? any help is hugely appreciated! Thank you!



Well if your wanting to stay under $1000 for the body you can scratch the 6d, 7d, and 70d off your list already.  The 70d I think is running at roughly $1100 so that might still be within your acceptable budget range.  The 6D is a full frame camera, the 7d, 60d and 70d are crop sensor cameras.  The full frame will give you the better lowlight performance you want, but it's way out of your listed price range.  The 70d will give you a little bit better low light performance than your current T3I, but not really by very much.  It has a slighly higher boost ISO but the noise factor will remain about the same from what I understand.  It's also a couple hundred dollars above your budget of $1000.

The 60d uses the same sensor as your T3i and the lowlight performance is going to be pretty much exactly the same as well.  If it were me and I were looking for better lowlight performance with your listed budget, my recommendation would be to sell both your T3I and your 50 mm lens and switch over to Nikon.

You could purchase both a D7000 and a 50 mm prime for it for under $1000 and it will give you better lowlight performance than your current T3i, or go with the D7100 which would give you even a little bit better lowlight performance than the D7000 - though the D7100 would be a little more expensive, you can still get the body for under $1000 though you would go a little over that when purchasing the lens as well - but of course since you'd be selling your T3i as well as your current Canon 50 mm you'll have a bit more money in your budget so the D7100 would probably still be quite doable.

Both the D7000 and the D7100 will also give you much better image quality than the 60d and even the 70d, in fact the D7000 would give you about the same quality of image you could expect from a 6d and the D7100's image quality is even better.

Now the 6d is a full frame camera so it would have an edge over the 7000/7100 in low light performance, but they are also about twice your current budget - they run around $1800 for just the body.  So if it were me, I'd take a serious look at switching over to Nikon, either that or keep the T3i you currently have until you can afford to purchase the 6D.

Oh, also if your budget is a little flexible, the Nikon d600 would be a good one to give serious consideration too - it is full frame so the lowlight performance would be a big step up from where you are currently, it would give you better image quality than even a 6d can obtain, and a refurbished unit for the body only would run you around $1400 from adorama.  I know that's a little more than what your looking to spend but I put it out there for your consideration.

Hope that helps.


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## JacaRanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Are you able to post some examples of pictures with the noise issues along with the settings and lighting setup or conditions?  You may find the reason and perhaps a less expensive solution.


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## SCraig (Dec 4, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> Are you able to post some examples of pictures with the noise issues along with the settings and lighting setup or conditions?  You may find the reason and perhaps a less expensive solution.



^^ This.  Noise is not just a function of a camera body but how you use that camera body.


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## paigew (Dec 4, 2013)

I used the t3i for a long time at high iso without much noise issues. I agree, post a photo and maybe we can help


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> tC_H4V0K said:
> 
> 
> > As in the title ive noticed that i havent been very happy with my rebel t3i and its tendency to create noise (even at low ISO) and decided to start saving up for a better body camera and sell my camera with 3 filters for about $450. the only lens i have right now is a 50mm f1.8. Ill probs just buy a camera body and stick with the 50mm for a while. I primarily shoot automotive photography. Im torn (and confused) on the differences between a 6D, 60D, 7D, and 70D. what are the extra "0's" mean? I dont wanna spend more than $1000 on a body and will probs buy one off craigslist or used off amazon. Would it be risky to buy refurbished off amazon? Can anyone point out the main differences between these 4 cameras and tell me what will be the best buy for me? any help is hugely appreciated! Thank you!
> ...





Im not a huge Nikon guy. Ill look into the d7000 but im probably still gonna go with canon since its just what ive been used to. Ive been used to canon all my life and intend to stick with canon. So ill cross 60D off the list hands down. I found some 7D bodies on craigslist for $700. I intend to buy used not new, all the prices you listed were new. I may save a while for the 6D because that sounds like the best option, since ive been so used to canon. The 70D is still within the question as well. Ill upload a few photos once I have better wifi on my laptop but its just been so frustrating because i find myself always using the luminance feature in Lightroom trying to get rid of that stupid noise. I try to keep ISO below 800 but thats tricky at night and a few of the photos i used low iso with a long shutter speed and still got excessive noise. Its in all of my low light photos and in some of my daytime photos even. I tried to compensate the low ISO with a slow shutter and high aperture. I havent used the 50mm at night yet, so the photos youll see are with the stock 18-55 lens. Thanks for the help and ill keep you posted.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

I have a feeling the noise is related to low light shooting and High ISO. IMHO, if your looking to upgrade to any one of the models on your list other then the 6D to be significantly better with noise, forgot about it. All the crop sensors on your list are not going to be noise eating monsters. The 6D is the best of the bunch but also a FF camera and already over your budget not counting the glass. As others have said, a picture with the EXIF Data can help a great deal.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

paigew said:


> I used the t3i for a long time at high iso without much noise issues. I agree, post a photo and maybe we can help



Your style is heavy noise&#8230;sooooo&#8230;:mrgreen:. I love the way you incorporate noise into your images it just works. 

OP, if you are looking for less noise then you definitely will want and wait until you have enough for the 6D or better. Otherwise like others have said maybe post a few. Perhaps you are an extreme pixel peeper.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

> Im not a huge Nikon guy. Ill look into the d7000 but im probably still gonna go with canon since its just what ive been used to. Ive been used to canon all my life and intend to stick with canon. So ill cross 60D off the list hands down. I found some 7D bodies on craigslist for $700. I intend to buy used not new, all the prices you listed were new. I may save a while for the 6D because that sounds like the best option, since ive been so used to canon. The 70D is still within the question as well. Ill upload a few photos once I have better wifi on my laptop but its just been so frustrating because i find myself always using the luminance feature in Lightroom trying to get rid of that stupid noise. I try to keep ISO below 800 but thats tricky at night and a few of the photos i used low iso with a long shutter speed and still got excessive noise. Its in all of my low light photos and in some of my daytime photos even. I tried to compensate the low ISO with a slow shutter and high aperture. I havent used the 50mm at night yet, so the photos youll see are with the stock 18-55 lens. Thanks for the help and ill keep you posted.



No worries, I understand once you get used to using a particular system it gets harder to change.  I really wouldn't recommend the 7D though, I mean not if your goal is lower noise at high ISO.  The 7d shoots a lot faster and has a much better autofocus system than your current T3i but lowlight performance will be pretty much the same.  So if much better lowlight is your goal I'd probably recommend you save up until you can afford the 6d.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

The more I look at the 6D the more I want one in my camera bag but Waiting to see what canon brings to the table with the 7D Mark II. The waiting suspense is  brutal.


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## ronlane (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> The more I look at the 6D the more I want one in my camera bag but Waiting to see what canon brings to the table with the 7D Mark II.



Me too. It's killing me to wait on another body and get out of the T3i. I want 20+mp, don't know why, but I want it.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> The more I look at the 6D the more I want one in my camera bag but Waiting to see what canon brings to the table with the 7D Mark II. The waiting suspense is  brutal.





ronlane said:


> DarkShadow said:
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I wouldn't be surprised to see a 6D II in 2015.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

If Canon up there Dynamic Range a bit and the specs are true for the 7D Mark II, It should be the best crop sensor on the market. A Large buffer and 10 to 12 FPS is a dream for us Bird photographers.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> If Canon up there Dynamic Range a bit and the specs are true for the 7D Mark II, It should be the best crop sensor on the market.



I hope they don't use the same 70D sensor. They really need to create some separation between the bodies other than AF, FPS, and little differences. I have read some rumors even saying that the AF system will be the same from the 1DX and 5DIII. We shall see&#8230;


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> If Canon up there Dynamic Range a bit and the specs are true for the 7D Mark II, It should be the best crop sensor on the market. A Large buffer and 10 to 12 FPS is a dream for us Bird photographers.



PShaw.. best camera for bird photography?  The Pentax K1000.  You throw it at the bird and stun it, then take pictures of it using either a Canon or Nikon.  Works like a charm.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> DarkShadow said:
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> > If Canon up there Dynamic Range a bit and the specs are true for the 7D Mark II, It should be the best crop sensor on the market. A Large buffer and 10 to 12 FPS is a dream for us Bird photographers.
> ...



uhhhhhhh&#8230;peta


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


> DarkShadow said:
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> ...



I also heard that as well. I also here ISO Noise performance close to the 5D MRK III but not sure I believe that one.


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## Dao (Dec 4, 2013)

OP, do you usually under expose your photos?  Did you use any post processing software?


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


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Then why even buy a full frame? I doubt that will be the case. I was pretty impressed with how the 70D handles noise. A lot of people say there isn't much of a difference between the 60D and 70D as far as high ISO but having used both at high ISO the 70D is significantly better. But let people keep referring to snap sort as their source of info&#8230;fine by me. Same goes when I was researching full frame I played with the 5DIII, D800, D600, and 6D. The 6D blew the D600 out of the water at 6400 and above. The D800 and 5DIII were great but really much more than I wanted to spend. When I rented the 70D and compared shots at 3200 with it and my 6D you really couldn't tell that much of a difference&#8230;it had me considering selling my 6D and going with the 70D but then I came back down to earth.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

I agree with you Joe, Snap sort is a Joke.


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## Lumens (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K

I moved from a T2i to a 7D as I need the speed and focus for outdoor wildlife.  Automotive Photography I assume means Indoors with funky lighting.  T2i, t3i, 7D, X0D all have pretty much the same sensor.  To get improved Image Quality will mean moving to a Full Frame 6D or 5DmIII.  

However there are some post processing tricks that can remove serious noise.  Lightroom & PS can help a lot if you know what your doing.  That is not me yet, but I have seen other photographers work wonders cleaning up noise post processing.  My next goal is to learn just how to do it - I know it can be done as I have seen it.


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

Dao said:


> OP, do you usually under expose your photos?  Did you use any post processing software?



I actually think this is part of the problem. Im not very good with light settings and ive been so used to using a stock lens that lighting has always been a struggle for me. I dont have a 1080p res laptop but even with my 720p screen, i can still see noise present in multiple photos. most of the noise is after editing as far as i can see, but I HAVE to edit, but i have a hard time editing without getting noise. On another note, Ive been taking a look at the 7D and i do like it. the 6D and 5D MkII seem like great cameras but are super expensive (on amazon at least.)



^This photo:
Exposure: 5 Sec
ISO: 1600 (ew)
Focal Length: 23mm
Aperature: 3.625

*notice noise on the floor and lighter spots of the photo*



^This Photo:
Exposure: 1/100 sec
ISO: 400
Focal Length: 18mm
Aperature: 3.625

*Very Little Editing was done to this photo but i lit up the car a bit, and notice the noise in the sunlight


^This Photo:
Exposure: 1/50 sec
ISO: 200
Focal Lenth: 20mm
Aperature: 3.625

*This one was better but blacks arent as rich as i see photos that come out of a 5D or 7D. notice noise under the bridge*


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


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Why would I toss a K1000 at PETA?  Even though I think they are pretty silly I'm more of a live and let live kind of guy myself.  Hey.. now there is thought, I should send them a little something for Christmas.  Hmm.. Beef Jerky maybe?


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok,  so your saying the noise seems to be introduced "after you edit", which makes me wonder what software your using to edit and even more importantly what settings your using when you save the files.


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## JacaRanda (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K said:


> Dao said:
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> > OP, do you usually under expose your photos? Did you use any post processing software?
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I actually don't see much of a noise issue on these. There are some settings on your T3I that may help particularly with the longer exposures. (Noise Reduction Options) Canon T3i Review: Full Review - Exposure

I don't think the 7D will give you any better results in regards to noise, in fact it may be slightly worse. What you would get from it is better autofocussing. That would certainly help with your moving subjects (in good light).

Lumens is correct in regards to post processing tricks/techniques in Lightroom and other software. There is a learning curve and tradeoffs to the type and amount of post processing used.

It still may be a cheaper route until you can upgrade to the camera and lenses that may handle your needs better.


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## SCraig (Dec 4, 2013)

You absolutely, positively, do NOT want to underexpose any high(ish) ISO shots in any way whatsoever.  The trick is to OVER expose them just to the point of blowing out the highlights and then reduce the exposure in post processing.  This preserves a great deal of the shadow detail without a lot of noise.  The technique is referred to as "ETTR" or "Expose To The Right" and it really makes a huge difference.  Take a look at This Tutorial.


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Ok,  so your saying the noise seems to be introduced "after you edit", which makes me wonder what software your using to edit and even more importantly what settings your using when you save the files.



using lightroom 4, taking photos in JPEG, exporting them with a watermark. simple as that. ill do editing to sharpen things up or to lighten under exposed photos a bit, will add artificial sunlight as well to make photos more dramatic. any tips would be appreciated. thanks


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## JacaRanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


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I've not been much into testing, but I should with T3I, 60D & 70D.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K said:


> robbins.photo said:
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> > Ok,  so your saying the noise seems to be introduced "after you edit", which makes me wonder what software your using to edit and even more importantly what settings your using when you save the files.
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Shoot RAW. It will preserve much more detail and give you much more leeway when editing.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


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When I researched for full frame I went to a place to check them out but with the 60D and 70D I shot two weddings with coupled with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS USM II.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K said:


> robbins.photo said:
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> > Ok, so your saying the noise seems to be introduced "after you edit", which makes me wonder what software your using to edit and even more importantly what settings your using when you save the files.
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Well in particular I'm curious as to how the files are being saved - I don't use lightroom myself but most software when you save it to jpg will ask you to pick some settings for "quality" and "compression" - and if your seeing problems with your photos after you edit them but not before I'm just wondering if maybe these settings might not be playing a part in the issue.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

Also to much cropping can make picture's look funky or destroy the IQ.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> Also to much cropping can make picture's look funky or destroy the IQ.



Also interested in what is meant by "sharpen things up" - normally you can get away with one, maybe as much as two passes with a sharpen filter - after that, you get into grain city pretty quick.


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## DarkShadow (Dec 4, 2013)

Or crinkles. I have done this to often with over sharpening. We can capture the best image in the world and completely destroy it with poor processing. I have made the ocean water occasionally look like the moon with the sharpening thingy.:lmao:


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> Or crinkles. I have done this to often with over sharpen or over cropping. We can capture the best image in the world and completely destroy it with poor processing.



As many times as I've done it that really should be my tagline - lol..


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

i think processing has to do with a lot of it. 99% of the time there will be noise in night time shots that I have done and im trying every possible route to avoiding that. heres a shot im pleased with but the car on the left has noise on the roof and above. I want my photos to be smooth, not noisy...its driving me absolutely insane.


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


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Would you pick the 70D over the 7D? Im wondering if the main source of my problem is the fact that Ive used a stock lens for such a long time. the 5D3 has a fabulous stock lens that ive seen but it is a $900 lens. i could get a used camera for that. so 6D and 60D have been ruled out, and Im wondering if having a touch flip-out screen on the 70D is more useful than the 7D. Opinions! I need opinions!


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## SCraig (Dec 4, 2013)

tC_H4V0K said:


> i think processing has to do with a lot of it. 99% of the time there will be noise in night time shots that I have done and im trying every possible route to avoiding that. heres a shot im pleased with but the car on the left has noise on the roof and above. *I want my photos to be smooth, not noisy...its driving me absolutely insane.*


Did you read my post #26?  If not you might want to do so.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

I am curious on why you are ruling out the 6D especially when you are shooting static objects, cars, and complaining about noise. The 6D handles noise better than any of the choices you have mentioned thus far.

:scratch:


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## Derrel (Dec 4, 2013)

If you have noise on static things, like cars, I'd say the biggest likely culprit is simply not EXPOSING the images generously enough, or shooting without enough light for the exposure times and f/stops you decide to use. Underexposure makes noise look bad, and large, smooth-tonmed areas, like say, car roofs ( ;-) ] tend to show noise more than variegated, detailed subjects, like say asphalt. So, maybe the issue is more one of not actually exposing the images long enough?


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


> I am curious on why you are ruling out the 6D especially when you are shooting static objects, cars, and complaining about noise. The 6D handles noise better than any of the choices you have mentioned thus far.
> 
> :scratch:



Um... I'm going to go with price on that one.  Yup.. my guess would be price - lol


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Juga said:
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> > I am curious on why you are ruling out the 6D especially when you are shooting static objects, cars, and complaining about noise. The 6D handles noise better than any of the choices you have mentioned thus far.
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More lolz&#8230;It is a legit question especially considering the title of the thread and his 'issue' being noise. Scott and Derrel have offered very good advice which should help with his noise 'issue.'


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


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Well initially as I recall he had posted he'd wanted to spend no more than $1000 on a camera body and gave a list of 4 options, the 6d, 7d, 60d and 70d.  I gave him a quick break down of the canon offerings available and pointed out that the 6d is running on average at around $1800 so it was out of his price range.  Technically speaking the only camera he originally asked about was in his price range, the 60d - though I gave him a quick rundown in the 70d as well since it was pretty close to his limit at roughly $1100.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


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Yes I recall the same from the first page. I have seen the 6D used for 14-1500ish. Anyway, 70D or bust!


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## robbins.photo (Dec 4, 2013)

Juga said:


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I bought my own camera used, I don't have a problem with it - but some folks really prefer new and/or refurbished.  Can't blame them really, but as a result normally when I quote prices that's what I quote - that and because used can fluctuate so much so quickly.


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## Juga (Dec 4, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Juga said:
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Very true statement. Lens used are good as well.


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## Dao (Dec 4, 2013)

OP, for static object(s), you may want to learn more about how to expose the photo properly or ETTR (Expose to the Right).  Learn how to use artificial light(s)  The result should be better than getting a 6D especially with the artificial lights.


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 6, 2013)

Dao said:


> OP, for static object(s), you may want to learn more about how to expose the photo properly or ETTR (Expose to the Right).  Learn how to use artificial light(s)  The result should be better than getting a 6D especially with the artificial lights.




Thanks for all the help guys! I will make sure to take these tips into account. Itll be a while until i can afford a new camera body (since im currently building a computer and also buying car parts.) One question though, for night shots like this one
View attachment 61641
what is "overexposure"? especially for night shots. what should the histogram look like when i process it (Im shooting in raw from now on), because there is MUCH less light at night, how can i possibly nearly "blow out the headlights"? Isnt any higher ISO than 800 gonna give me noise no matter what?? Thanks.


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## tC_H4V0K (Dec 6, 2013)

i was pissed because i did a shoot of 2 subarus (rolling shots) and ALL the photos were over exposed and i couldnt bring it down and all good detail was lost


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## Braineack (Dec 6, 2013)

WHY did you overexpose all the rolling shots?


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## robbins.photo (Dec 6, 2013)

If I could make a recommendation, not certain what mode  you were using here but you might want to try Apeture priority mode on shots like these, I use it quite a bit in wildlife photography.  I don't use a T3i myself, but on my D5100 I've found that it allows me to control the exposure triangle quickly and easily to get the desired results without having to worry about under/over exposure.  I can concentrate more on just taking pictures that way.  I set my aperture for my desired DOF, and if needed I adjust my ISO so I can get the desired shutter speed for the given lighting conditions.  Then I'm ready to fire away.


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