# Aggression towards photographers



## Para (Mar 30, 2008)

Hi I am compiling complaints from photographers who have been stopped by the police, Community Support Officers, or any other public body and any private security guard from taking a photograph legally that means on any public property, areas that allow photography.
I am compiling this as a demonstration that it is increasingly difficult to take a photograph without interference, the new Home Security Laws are going to make it more difficult. The Met Police are now saying phone us and we will decide if a person is taking a photograph who we think is suspicious even if its a mobile phone camera.
Private security companies are not getting in on the act.
So if you wish to be able to take a photograph in a public place without the fear of being arrested and branded a terrorist or a pedophile send your email with your complaint with time and date, be as informative as possible, I have a Member of the Scottish Parliament who I am in contact about this he has already contacted the Justice Secretary to press concerns
Email me your complaints to:
photo-complaints@live.com
Stand up for your rights to keep your hobby and your living.
Pete


----------



## Battou (Mar 30, 2008)

I have a feeling this one is going to become a rollercoaster just like the last one.


----------



## Alex_B (Mar 30, 2008)

Well, I have been stopped and searched by Met Police once. They were pretty polite and did not interfere with my photography other than stealing some of my time.

private security, however, can be quite a different story.


----------



## Battou (Mar 30, 2008)

I've been stopped by both, Police and Private security. The police officer was genuinly curious, and the private security guard thought I was setting up a rifel on my tripod. Upon sheading a little light on things with his portable flood light only to find a camera, he then inquired if I had photographed any UFOs.


----------



## Alex_B (Mar 30, 2008)

Battou said:


> he then inquired if I had photographed any UFOs.



You certainly were not so stupid to tell him that you got any? He might have confiscated the film then


----------



## Battou (Mar 30, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> You certainly were not so stupid to tell him that you got any? He might have confiscated the film then



Given the sphiel he gave me, you are prolly right, they would be a must have for his private collection 



...But then again he might have paid for them to, as by this time he knew he was in the wrong and that I was not the person to try stupid stunts with.


----------



## Socrates (Mar 30, 2008)

Para said:


> Hi I am compiling complaints from photographers who have been stopped by the police, Community Support Officers, or any other public body and any private security guard from taking a photograph legally that means on any public property, areas that allow photography.
> I am compiling this as a demonstration that it is increasingly difficult to take a photograph without interference, the new Home Security Laws are going to make it more difficult. The Met Police are now saying phone us and we will decide if a person is taking a photograph who we think is suspicious even if its a mobile phone camera.
> Private security companies are not getting in on the act.
> So if you wish to be able to take a photograph in a public place without the fear of being arrested and branded a terrorist or a pedophile send your email with your complaint with time and date, be as informative as possible, I have a Member of the Scottish Parliament who I am in contact about this he has already contacted the Justice Secretary to press concerns
> ...



Never had a problem.  Common courtesy goes a long way.


----------



## ratplant (Apr 1, 2008)

I just recently had a run-in with a cop who stopped me after I used my cell phone to take a picture of him and his patrol car in a 7-Eleven parking lot. The details are here:
http://rashynullplanet.com/blog/2008/03/13/close-encounter/

Shortly after that unpleasantness, I came across this list of photographers' rights:
http://photojojo.com/content/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/

That list on PhotoJoJo is based on info from an attorney in Oregon. Does anyone know if it's applicable to Michigan as well?

Thanks!

--Matt


----------



## Socrates (Apr 1, 2008)

ratplant said:


> I just recently had a run-in with a cop who stopped me after I used my cell phone to take a picture of him and his patrol car in a 7-Eleven parking lot. The details are here:
> http://rashynullplanet.com/blog/2008/03/13/close-encounter/
> 
> Shortly after that unpleasantness, I came across this list of photographers' rights:
> ...


 
Have you ever stopped to consider how you'd feel if you had that job and someone took your photo?  No, I guess you really don't care about the risks that others take on your behalf.  If I were the chief, I'd post your letter on the bulletin board along with a description of your vehicle and the tag number.


----------



## Alex_B (Apr 1, 2008)

ratplant said:


> I just recently had a run-in with a cop who stopped me after I used my cell phone to take a picture of him and his patrol car in a 7-Eleven parking lot. The details are here:
> http://rashynullplanet.com/blog/2008/03/13/close-encounter/
> 
> Shortly after that unpleasantness, I came across this list of photographers' rights:
> ...



I am afraid, but this is not how it works ... this will cause a smile, laughter, or whatever.

You are not entitled to demands like that. This reads the same as if I would mail the mayor that I want him do do next weeks shopping for me and drop stuff in my driveway at Friday evening. It is just as absurd.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 1, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> I am afraid, but this is not how it works ... this will cause a smile, laughter, or whatever.
> 
> You are not entitled to demands like that. This reads the same as if I would mail the mayor that I want him do do next weeks shopping for me and drop stuff in my driveway at Friday evening. It is just as absurd.


 
You missed the equally absurd #1:
_I would like a written apology from the officer. Via email is sufficient._

This all started because he objected to police officers taking coffee breaks!


----------



## Alex_B (Apr 1, 2008)

Socrates said:


> You missed the equally absurd #1:
> I would like a written apology from the officer. Via email is sufficient.



Oh, right, quick copy and paste. thank you 

Wasn't Axel F a cop in the area? I doubt he would have send an apology :mrgreen:


----------



## Socrates (Apr 1, 2008)

I browsed the posted web site and found the response that ratplant received from the DHPD shift commander.  He must have forgotten to tell us about it. He left the officer's name in the letter but deleted his own. I felt that, in the interest of fairness, I would delete the officer's name as well as the shift commander's name.

March 18, 2008
Mr. xxxxx,
I have been assigned to investigate your compliant against Officer YYYY for his actions on March 13, 2008. I have read your complaint and interviewed Officer yyyy. Your letter, as well as Officer YYYY's version of the incident, are virtually the same. After considering the facts, I have come to the following conclusion:
I feel that you exercised poor judgment in the manner in which you took Officer YYYY&#8217;s photograph. A simple courteous request prior to the photographing would have been proper. Without knowing your intent, you created anxiety, fear, and uncertainty in the officer&#8217;s mind. I ask that you put yourself in the officer&#8217;s shoes. I don&#8217;t know your family situation, but how would you feel if a stranger took a photo of your wife or children in front of your house and then quickly drove away. I am sure that would be upsetting to you and your family without knowing the intentions, good or bad, of the stranger.
Also, the speed limit on Pelham is 40 mph. Officer YYYY stated that you were speeding. You don&#8217;t dispute that. The traffic stop was lawful. It was reasonable for Officer YYYY to ask you about the nature of the photograph during the stop, and advising you to ask permission in the future.
In regards to your 10 enumerated requests. I will address them briefly.
1. Officer YYYY will not be apologizing to you.
2. Officer YYYY will not be disciplined in this matter
3. The Officer&#8217;s name has been addressed
4. Refer to number #2. Nor do we make it a policy to disclose discipline meted out to complainants.
5. The city attorney was consulted in this matter.
6. No such document exists.
7. The Dearborn Heights Police Department does not have a policy on the photographing of its Officers. Nor do we plan on implementing one.
8. This complaint is not sustained
9. A video tape may be available if you still wish to acquire it. A FOIA request is necessary. You may do that at DHPD Records Bureau.
10. I can assure you that Officer YYYY will not retaliate against you because of this incident.
Sincerely,


----------



## Village Idiot (Apr 1, 2008)

I've never been bothered before, which is surprising as normally when I'm taking pictures of cops, I'm usually pretty drunk.


----------



## Alex_B (Apr 1, 2008)

wow.

that was a very reasonable reply.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 1, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> I've never been bothered before, which is surprising as normally when I'm taking pictures of cops, I'm usually pretty drunk.


 
:lmao:

Been there, done that but I didn't even have a camera with me!


----------



## Socrates (Apr 1, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> wow.
> 
> that was a very reasonable reply.


 
He was a lot more reasonable than I would have been.


----------



## THORHAMMER (Apr 1, 2008)

I dont know about anyone else, but if I were investigating something or someone, I wouldnt ask permission before taking a picture, then they have a chance to stop doing whatever it is they are doing wrong. (if anything) 

That being said, I can see their anxiety, I would take pictures of cops doing something illegal, or speeding excessively, or something thats really unsafe, if it was happening right in front of me and I had a good shot I'd take it. But in that situation I would not ask permission. 

Long coffee breaks, I dont know, 
not so dangerous. 

I guess I can actually see the cops side of this in that he be pissed. Maybe his shift doesnt start yet and this is his morning ritual before starting.  
Maybe they are keeping a relationship with the owner so they can get info from him on stuff that happens in front of the store, who knows. 

One thing to note is you didnt have to show him the picture. but he didnt force you to either, no harm no foul. 

If you werent speeding he would have to drive away probably. Its the speeding which gives him the green light. 

In todays police state, I dont care if the cop is goofing off on the job as long as he leaves *me *alone.

Its a sad logic I know, but its the truth ive come to accept.


----------



## Mike_E (Apr 1, 2008)

Please take the lesson boys and girls:  Don't play with fire, else when you're hungry for toasted marshmallows you will have run out of matches.


----------



## Matt.H (Apr 1, 2008)

I hope to see you out someday RP.  I will snap a few pictures of you and drive off.  How would you feel?


----------



## Battou (Apr 1, 2008)

I periodically run into a police officer on a coffee break when turning in/waiting for film/prints, I rather enjoy his company.

I'll try to get a pic next time I see him.


----------



## Dubious Drewski (Apr 1, 2008)

Fascinating thread!

But on a somewhat similar note: who here has regular success shooting people without causing anger or distress? When I first started shooting seriously some years ago, I would shoot people without asking. This of course created some seriously awkward situations. I had some people swear at me. I had someone almost chase me. I learned quickly how hard candid street photography must be.

Of course the age-old problem is that if you ask for permission first, the people stop acting naturally - and if you shoot without asking, you offend them. Oi Vey!

These days I don't shoot people too often, unless it's in the studio!

Edit: I normally hate to be judgemental, but I can't resist in RatPlant's case.  What disgusting behaviour. That was very unreasonable of you, and your requests are anal retentive and asinine.  Seeing as this was your first post, you might want to consider discarding this username and starting another, so that we here at TPF cannot recognize you in the future. You have thoroughly tarnished that name.


----------



## PhotoJoe22 (Apr 11, 2008)

a few years ago while helping on a swimsuit calandar shoot in Niagara Falls, cops pulled up and told us we needed a permit to have light stands and such.After talking with them and explaining it was for the new basketball team and taking a few pics of them with the models, they pretty much hung out and made sure no one bothered us.


----------



## usayit (Apr 11, 2008)

I guarantee that wouldn't be the case in NYC.... 

but in a way I understand...


----------



## Rick Waldroup (Apr 12, 2008)

The cop stopped ratplant because he took a picture of him.

Do you guys think that is right?

Here you go- you guys tell me if you think this is right:

After being stopped and questioned numerous times while out street shooting, I bought a t-shirt that read, Street Photographer-Not a Terrorist. I wore it several times while out shooting and was stopped by a police officer in Fort Worth, who thought it was funny and wanted to know where I got it. However, a couple of weeks later, in downtown Dallas, a couple of officers did not think it was funny at all.

I was standing on a corner at noon, shooting, when a cop car pulled up. The driver motioned me over and asked me if I thought my shirt was funny. I told him that, yes, I did. He and his partner got out of the car and started questioning me about why I was wearing such a shirt. I asked them if I was being detained because of a t-shirt that I was wearing. I never got an answer to that question. Instead, another cop car showed up. Now, in the middle of downtown Dallas, on a busy street corner at lunchtime, I am involved with 4 police officers questioning me about a shirt that I am wearing. Does anyone see anything wrong with this?

After about 10 minutes of this bull****, I finally asked one of the officers if I was going to be arrested. If not, then I wanted to be on my way. They let me go, with a warning to be careful about what I was taking photos of. Basically what it came down to, was that a cop got pissed off about a shirt I was wearing. That's it. Do any of you think that it was okay for the cops to stop me and question me about a shirt I was wearing?

I have been stopped and questioned many times since 9/11. I have always responded in a polite and civil manner. Not any more. Since the incident in Dallas, I now question the police or security guards everytime I am stopped as to what their motives are. It has now gotten to the point that if I am stopped and questioned and I feel that it is unreasonable, I tell them to either arrest me on the spot or take a hike. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Screw em.

It happened just the other day. I was in downtown Fort Worth, shooting a very nice, old building with some interesting columns. I took a couple of shots and then walked across the street to a park area. When I crossed the street, I heard someone yelling at me. I turned around and it was a security guard. I walked back over and he asked me what I was taking pictures of. I told him. He then said that it looked like I was taking photos of the federal court house. To tell you the truth, I did not even notice the courthouse, but it was right next to the building I was taking photos of. He asked to see the photos. I very calmly showed them to him. In one of the shots, I caught the corner of the courthouse. He asked me to delete the photo. At that point, I literally told him to get lost. I turned the camera off and told him that I was going to walk across the street to the park and that if he or his superiors or the police needed to talk to me, that is where I would be. I walked across the street into the park and that was the last I saw of the fellow. We have to stand up for our rights.

I don't want to live in a police state. And that is what is happening to our country.

So what if ratplant took a photo of a cop. Did that give the cop a justifiable reason to pull him over?

And for those that may wonder, I am not anti-police. I simply do not want to live in a police state. Do any of you?


----------



## patrickt (Apr 12, 2008)

We had a group of tourists who all had nice cameras and were being exceedly rude in taking pictures of local people. So, when they settled down in a cafe and ordered beer I ran over and got as close and obnoxious as they had been with locals and started taking photos. They got very aggressive. Is this the kind of story you want?

As far as aggression from any authority, a police officer stopped to ask me what I was doing when I had a camera on a tripod in a downtown alley at three a.m. back in 1962. I had one security guard in a mall tell me I couldn't take pictures and when I asked a private company if I could take some photos on their property they refused and then changed their mind and allowed me to shoot. That's it.


----------



## THORHAMMER (Apr 12, 2008)

patrickt said:


> We had a group of tourists who all had nice cameras and were being exceedly rude in taking pictures of local people. So, when they settled down in a cafe and ordered beer I ran over and got as close and obnoxious as they had been with locals and started taking photos. They got very aggressive. Is this the kind of story you want?
> 
> As far as aggression from any authority, a police officer stopped to ask me what I was doing when I had a camera on a tripod in a downtown alley at three a.m. back in 1962. I had one security guard in a mall tell me I couldn't take pictures and when I asked a private company if I could take some photos on their property they refused and then changed their mind and allowed me to shoot. That's it.




lets say it was very rude of the photographers, ok fine, they were in the wrong and were rude. But;

This is not even in the same ballpark as police officers sworn to uphold the LAW behaving unruly and wasting our tax money giving a guy a hard time cause of a shirt he is wearing ? not the same thing at all. They approached him not the other way around. your talking bananas and grapes here. 

Ricks post is not about rudeness, or courtesy thats another topic, but about the LAW and police state activity. 

Your saying If I got a ticket for listening to music in my car in my driveway with my windows rolled up and you cannot hear it more then 5 feet away, its OK because some guy down the street was playing his music all the way up at a light... Not the same thing. Lets be logical here.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

I have noticed over the years that those individuals that are polite and courteous don't seem to have their "rights trampled on."  On the other hand, some individuals appear to attract that type of response.  Hmmm...

As far as ratplant is concerned, I believe that the chief should have posted the complaint letter on the bulletin board along with his plate number and a description of his car.  I admire the department for their restraint and the very reasonable response.


----------



## notelliot (Apr 12, 2008)

Dubious Drewski said:


> Of course the age-old problem is that if you ask for permission first, the people stop acting naturally - and if you shoot without asking, you offend them. Oi Vey!



shoot from the hip. 

if you're close, cough. 

the last time i had an incident, i asked to see documentation of the restrictions of photography in the specified area (security guard). he started to say that none existed, and i cut him off to say, "all right, see ya". he paused and left. i left shortly after, as i thought i was a bit too curt.


----------



## BPALMER (Apr 12, 2008)

Originally Posted by *ratplant* 

 
 				I just recently had a run-in with a cop who stopped me after I used my cell phone to take a picture of him and his patrol car in a 7-Eleven parking lot. The details are here:
http://rashynullplanet.com/blog/2008...ose-encounter/

Shortly after that unpleasantness, I came across this list of photographers' rights:
http://photojojo.com/content/tips/le...photographers/

That list on PhotoJoJo is based on info from an attorney in Oregon. Does anyone know if it's applicable to Michigan as well?

Thanks!

--Matt






2. The officer should be disciplined.
 3. Inform me what the officers name is, so I have it for my records.
 4. Inform me what discipline the officer receives, also for my records.
5. Forward a copy of this note to the city attorney who should advise the police department what Michigan law says regarding photography of police officers and their vehicles.
 6. Send me a copy of the city attorneys advice to the police department. Via email is sufficient.
7. Send me a copy of the police departments policy regarding photography of police. Via email is sufficient. If no such policy exists, the police department should develop one. The policy should also be posted on the police departments web site.
8. Copies of disciplinary action records and all correspondence regarding this incident should be placed in the officers personnel file.
9. Provide me with copies of the audio and video from the officers patrol car video camera and any audio captured by any microphone the officer was wearing. Via email as MP3 and/or MPG files is sufficient.
10. Guarantee me, in writing, that neither the officer nor anyone from the Dearborn Heights police department or any other Dearborn Heights city department will attempt any retaliation, intimidation, or harassment of me or my family because of this incident, this complaint, or anything that results from it. Please send this last item via US Postal Service. My mailing address can be gotten from the officer who stopped me and checked my driving record.





ARE YOU FOR REAL????
 SOUNDS MORE TO ME LIKE YOU ARE HARRASSING THE COPS,sorry i find it hard to see your view on this knowing full well how difficult it can be to do their job.....surely there are better ways for you to occupy your time then to watch over the local pd


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

BPALMER said:


> ARE YOU FOR REAL????
> SOUNDS MORE TO ME LIKE YOU ARE HARRASSING THE COPS,sorry i find it hard to see your view on this knowing full well how difficult it can be to do their job.....surely there are better ways for you to occupy your time then to watch over the local pd



:thumbup:


----------



## Rick Waldroup (Apr 12, 2008)

Folks, we have the same chaos going on down here in Texas right now, concerning the Mormon compound. So far, the police have confirmed nothing.

Were those kids being abused? We don't know. And as of right now, they can't find the original girl, named Sarah who brought forth the complaint, and at this moment, they have not found anything to implicate these folks in any wrong doing.

Hey, when we had the problems with Catholic priests running around molesting young boys, I don't remember any rush by law enforcement officials to raid Catholic churches, to protect the innocents.

Somewhere, somehow, someone has to stand up to this bull****. If not now, then when?

And let me state this- I, in no way, condone anything illegal these whack jobs may have been doing- but give me this- give me due process under the law.

Also, I found it disturbing that in the very beginning of this problem here in Texas, the officials roped off a 5 mile area around the compound- hands off to the press- what kind of crap is that? I believe in freedom of the press. I want to know if my government is screwing up. I want to know what is really happening- not just what the government is telling me is happening. 

Anyone remember Waco and that ****ing disaster?


----------



## KOrmechea (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Hey, when we had the problems with Catholic priests running around and molesting young boys, I don't remember any rush by law enforcement officials to raid Catholic churches, to prortect the innocents.



A raid on a Catholic church isn't necessary because they aren't generally a fenced-in compound that refuses to let the police in in the first place.

If a call is made, the police respond.  If it's a serious call, they do what they have to.


----------



## Rick Waldroup (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> I have noticed over the years that those individuals that are polite and courteous don't seem to have their "rights trampled on." On the other hand, some individuals appear to attract that type of response. Hmmm...
> 
> As far as ratplant is concerned, I believe that the chief should have posted the complaint letter on the bulletin board along with his plate number and a description of his car. I admire the department for their restraint and the very reasonable response.


 

Yep,  let's all bow down and just kiss the ass of authority.  

What ****ing fantasy world do you live in?


----------



## Rick Waldroup (Apr 12, 2008)

KOrmechea said:


> A raid on a Catholic church isn't necessary because they aren't generally a fenced-in compound that refuses to let the police in in the first place.
> 
> If a call is made, the police respond. If it's a serious call, they do what they have to.


 

Do you trust your government?  Do you trust your police?


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Do you trust your government?  Do you trust your police?


Yes.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Yep,  let's all bow down and just kiss the ass of authority.
> 
> What ****ing fantasy world do you live in?



The world where common courtesy wins over screaming demands.

Of course, you're right.  It is a fantasy that the chief would post the letter on the bulletin board as I feel he should have done.

Your admiration for ratpiss is beyond belief.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> The world where common courtesy wins over screaming demands.



A little OT, but I gotta ask,... You ever take any photos?


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> ...and at this moment, they have not found anything to implicate these folks in any wrong doing.


Beyond asinine.  Not worthy of a response.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

abraxas said:


> A little OT, but I gotta ask,... You ever take any photos?


Have you?


----------



## Battou (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> Have you?



Yes he does, but don't be too offended, I have seen the same question posed before by another user at a different. They are generally directed to those who show extencive knowledge in theroy but no visual proof.


Max (Alpha) springs directly into mind.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> Have you?



You first. C'mon, I asked nice.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Battou said:


> Yes he does, but don't be too offended, I have seen the same question posed before by another user at a different. They are generally directed to those who show extencive knowledge in theroy but no visual proof.
> 
> 
> Max (Alpha) springs directly into mind.



Nah, I'm just wondering.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

abraxas said:


> You first. C'mon, I asked nice.



I'll rephrase.  Have you ever taken pictures a second time or were you thrown out the first time?


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> I'll rephrase.  Have you ever taken pictures a second time or were you thrown out the first time?



I'll type real slow.

Have you ever taken any photos?


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I'll type real slow.
> 
> Have you ever taken any photos?



I'll type even slower.  Were you thrown out the first time?

On second thought, you really don't care about any logical discussion.  You want only to scream your demands and to make snide comments to those with whom you disagree.  No different than what you've done previously.

Have a nice day (if you're able).


----------



## Antithesis (Apr 12, 2008)

I've had my rights "trampled on" in the past, but I'm no longer butt-hurt about it. I've been flat out deceived by a police officer, took the wrap for some random crap, fought it, lost and now have a felony on my record. I still have extreme trouble getting a job and it's been six years since I was convicted. Complaining about a firm talking to about a camera phone... LOL. 

I've paid my dues, fulfilled court ordered obligations and I know a hell of a lot better than to get in any trouble. I used to hate police officers with a passion, and I used to run my mouth about how terrible they were and how they are destroying everyones rights and blah blah blah. But now, I just don't break the law, don't hang out with people that break the law and police don't seem so bad afterall. I've found they don't bother me so much if I don't have to worry about getting in some sort of trouble. The people bad mouthing the police have A) probably never been helped by the police and B) have issues with authority and probably put anarchy symbols on their binders in high school.

/rant

I've only been bugged once: for trying to take pictures of a derilict building that I didn't realize was in front of a train depot. The security officer informed me that after 9/11, you can't take pictures of train depots for obvious reasons. I don't know how many terrorists take recon pictures with a Holga, but I didn't argue or "uphold my rights", because I frankly it didn't bother me that much.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> I'll type even slower.  Were you thrown out the first time?
> 
> On second thought, you really don't care about any logical discussion.  You want only to scream your demands and to make snide comments to those with whom you disagree.  No different than what you've done previously.
> 
> Have a nice day (if you're able).





Stay calm, it's just a question.

Again- Have you ever taken a photo?


----------



## Antithesis (Apr 12, 2008)

I think this thread is due for moderation at some point...


----------



## Battou (Apr 12, 2008)

Antithesis said:


> I think this thread is due for moderation at some point...



To be honest, I am surprised it's still open.

Did I not say..."I have a feeling this one is going to become a rollercoaster just like the last one."


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

Antithesis said:


> The people bad mouthing the police have A) probably never been helped by the police and B) have issues with authority and probably put anarchy symbols on their binders in high school.


:thumbup:

I was constantly amazed at the jerks I had to work with when I was protesting our involvement in Viet Nam.  I got the impression that they were more interested in screaming obscenities regarding their alleged rights than they were in actually accomplishing some good.  I photographed the '68 Democratic convention in Chicago without any ill effects yet others couldn't walk along the sidewalk!

A somewhat humorous related story...  At the convention, an individual shooting pictures was challenged by the police to identify himself and he responded "Winston Churchill."  No surprise that he was kind of pummeled (yeah, unfair but consider the circumstances).  In any event, that was his real name.  He was the grandson of the famous Winston Churchill and was working as a photographer for a Brit magazine.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Battou said:


> To be honest, I am surprised it's still open.
> 
> Did I not say..."I have a feeling this one is going to become a rollercoaster just like the last one."



It probably should have been moderated/guided when the provocation started.  But, I asked a simple and civil question.

BTW, I have a lot of respect for Max.  He earned it.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates said:


> ...



Have you ever taken any photos?


----------



## Mystwalker (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Yep, let's all bow down and just kiss the ass of authority.
> 
> What ****ing fantasy world do you live in?


 
It's not about "kissing ass of authority"

It's about not being an ass to authority because they are the authority.  Teenager's anti-authority syndrome - I guess some do not grow out of it.


----------



## KOrmechea (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Do you trust your government?  Do you trust your police?



I do.  I have no reason not to.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

Mystwalker said:


> It's not about "kissing ass of authority"
> 
> It's about not being an ass to authority because they are the authority.  Teenager's anti-authority syndrome - I guess some do not grow out of it.



There appears to be a handful of posters in this forum that haven't grown out of it.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 12, 2008)

KOrmechea said:


> I do.  I have no reason not to.



I figure that it must be really tough to go through life distrusting the police and other authority.  Do they call MOVE when they need help?


----------



## abraxas (Apr 12, 2008)

Socrates,

I just can't see where you're coming from.  I was hoping maybe looking at some of your work would give me some insight, but you don't have any you're willing to share.  Too bad for you.


----------



## Battou (Apr 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> It probably should have been moderated/guided when the provocation started.  But, I asked a simple and civil question.
> 
> BTW, I have a lot of respect for Max.  He earned it.



Yeah, I too have respect for Max, I can't remember who it was but last time I saw the "do you even take pictures" question, He was the one it was pointed at.


----------



## Antithesis (Apr 13, 2008)

Battou said:


> To be honest, I am surprised it's still open.
> 
> Did I not say..."I have a feeling this one is going to become a rollercoaster just like the last one."



Yep, I assume threads that start out in such a fantastic manner as that atleast deserve a little attention from the mods.


----------



## Battou (Apr 13, 2008)

Antithesis said:


> Yep, I assume threads that start out in such a fantastic manner as that atleast deserve a little attention from the mods.



Not only that but it was started with in minuets of one just like it being closed.

As a moderator on another forum I do understand the mods choice to let it go and see where it goes. 



But I think it is over now, It's time to get in line for the next ride.


----------



## TheOtherBob (Apr 13, 2008)

Socrates said:


> Your admiration for ratpiss is beyond belief.


 
Hey, whoa there, man -- name-calling isn't in line with the civility expected on this board, even if you disagree with someone. Can I ask you to please knock it off?


----------



## usayit (Apr 13, 2008)

Socrates,  IIRC you live in my state.

Although I believe the police uniform should be respected, you cannot deny the fact that not all the persons "in-uniform" in our state have earned that respect.  In fact, many cross the line and abuse it.  I see this practically on a daily basis.  This is not to say that everyone who shows distrust or question authority is considered disrespectful.  They are entirely two different things.  In fact, government was designed to distrust and question..... people should always question authority in a respectful manner... stand up for your rights in a respectful manner.

We are all forgetting we are products of our environment.  The police in my fine town far west of 287 (north jersey) are wonderful...  they seem to understand the concept of "To serve and protect".  Then again... I don't think there has been a violent crime in my town for decades.  I don't think the police department has any trouble finding man-power in this attractive area.

As I commute farther east, the police seem to show a bit of disdain to that concept.  The beat gets tougher and the police departments struggle to maintain a presence.  This impacts both sides of the fence... growing distrust from the community and growing aggression from police (at times resulting into power trips).  

I have personally been on the other side of that aggression... It was extremely uncomfortable and it didn't have to be ... I did not appreciate being called and "disrespectful kid" and being yelled at by a Paterson Police officer on route 80 last year.  I also did not appreciate the threat of being "fanned" with tickets.  (Yes.. it happens enough that people have placed a name to it)  Officer immediately profiled me making a false assumption as I'm 33 who looks like I'm in my early 20s with a red car often owned by teen agers (Neon).  What did I do wrong?  I simply asked what I was being pulled over for.   That 1 time resulted in me walking around with a chip on my shoulder for all police officers for MONTHS!  Now just imagine if I lived in Newark or Paterson dealing with that every day of my life... friends and family members who I care for also going through the same treatment?  I can't be sure I would have enough will power to prevent that chip on my shoulder from growing into a "hatred" for the uniform.  I consider myself fortunate....

Sorry for the rambling but I just wanted to point out that a lot of statements being thrown around with little effort to understand this fact.



Honestly... the best way to deal with an police confrontation is to politely answer with simple responses ("yes sir", "no sir") and say nothing more to avoid escalation (the officer too might be on a heightened state of emotion).  On some occasions, I've simply asked if I am under-arrest and (assuming not) told the officer I will be on my way.  I've learned that the street is no place to discuss who is in the wrong or right... all it does is cause escalation.



btw.. The Unformed police in Texas (my home state) especially the County Sheriffs seemed a lot more laid back..  kinda miss that.   That's a big statement considering I'm probably one of the biggest pessimists I know.... all my friends and family make fun of me for being "too serious" all the time.  


yes.. I RESPECTFULLY question (distrust seems too strong of a word) all authority.  People in uniform are people too.. in fact they are strangers...    AND NO... I do not "have issues with authority and probably put anarchy symbols on their binders in high school."  As someone put it...  :x


Damn.. its 4am and I have got to get to work at 7am.  Can't sleep.  Oh yeh... I avoid route 80 big time.  Anyone visiting my area should also try to avoid 80.  Haven't had one ticket or confrontation since I started taking an alternate route.


----------



## Socrates (Apr 13, 2008)

TheOtherBob said:


> Hey, whoa there, man -- name-calling isn't in line with the civility expected on this board, even if you disagree with someone. Can I ask you to please knock it off?



You're right but it upsets me when this individual has spent his time browsing the web attempting to ruin the officer's reputation and has identified the officer by name and department.


----------



## Rand0m411 (Apr 13, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Do you trust your government?  Do you trust your police?



What if you called a cop and no one came?


----------



## Socrates (Apr 13, 2008)

Rand0m411 said:


> What if you called a cop and no one came?



:thumbup:


----------



## Rick Waldroup (Apr 13, 2008)

You guys are missing the point. I am not anti-cop. In the work I do, I deal with them on a regular basis.

I do not, however, want to tolerate an abuse of authority by those we are supposed to trust.

And for what it is worth, there are a whole lot of things about our current government that I do not trust at all.

Also, I was never endorsing what ratplant did.  In fact, I think the guy has way to much time on his hands.  Who cares about a cop hanging out at a 7-11?  What I did not like was the reason the cop pulled him over.


----------



## THORHAMMER (Apr 13, 2008)

Ill admit there are good police and bad police, overall they are good, I just think we should not give up our legal rights so easily.  Besides that I actually think some  cops are cool guys. I have more of a problem with the bush admin laws regarding security and local security guards who do not know the law then I do with cops. 


 Update:
* the guy who put he in handcuffs for 30 minutes for doing nothing wrong (in LB) *
finally we had a meeting sort of a mediation thing. He actually apologized. I was blown away, met with him and the station commander last week. 

He said that he was afraid because I was bigger then he was and when he got me out of the car he looked up at me and got spooked I guess.. ? weird, i dont 100% buy it, but his reason was that he didnt want to break leather (pull his gun) on a middle class looking guy, he did the handcuffs on the curb bit. I guess its the lesser of the 2. If he pulled the gun I would be suing now....

I thought this was hilarious coming from a guy with a baton and a gun. I don't consider myself a big guy @6ft 3 and 220 pounds, though I've been working out a lot lately, I hardly look like a thug.
but he was like 5'5 , .. whatever.....  still suspicious reasoning I think...


But at least I could see where he was coming from, I could tell hes gotten written up probably. I got a chance to show him my portfolio and he was really blown away, he didn't even know night time photography existed.  At least he wont fly off on some other photographer now right ? 

helped me a lot to realize they make mistakes just like we do. 
*
Heres the thing to do according to him. *

If you know they were called, just wait for them, getting in the car and leaving freaks them out even more. 

approaching them on the sidewalk in the open as opposed to the car will never get you in handcuffs , thats it, filed away for future reference. 

Still, he should have chilled out. but oh well now I have an apologetic station commanders cell ph number. Could come in handy someday...


----------



## usayit (Apr 13, 2008)

Rand0m411 said:


> What if you called a cop and no one came?



Questioning and distrusting the government is not the same as being anti-government.

You should always question authority.  Those that signed the Declaration of Independence did exactly that.....  questioned the authority of English rule.




fyi:  Handcuffs do not equal arrest.  I've been put into handcuffs with the cops explaining that it was for their safety and mine.  After the incident was figured out and the threat was (in their mind) eliminated, the cuffs were removed with their apology.


----------



## THORHAMMER (Apr 13, 2008)

I never said I was arrested !! 

but thanks for the info.


----------



## Rand0m411 (Apr 13, 2008)

THORHAMMER said:


> Ill admit there are good police and bad police, overall they are good, I just think we should not give up our legal rights so easily.  Besides that I actually think some  cops are cool guys. I have more of a problem with the bush admin laws regarding security and local security guards who do not know the law then I do with cops.
> 
> 
> Update:
> ...



You nailed it on the head. Every police officer out on the street is constantly putting their life on the line. A simple traffic stop or domestic disturbance complaint can easily turn into a situation where a police officers life is in danger. When a cop pulls you over, he has no idea what is going to happen, if your going to pull a gun because your wanted for something else, or if you just a regular citizen. So cops become very cautious. So when he told you he was spooked, that was the truth. Especially if he didnt have any back up. Cops get really nervous being in an unknown situation alone.

Most cops are out there helping people and keeping people safe. Are there a few hard arses? yup. Just comes with the territory, your talking about people whom have seen it all. Which is pretty much the worst part of humanity that we dont see on a daily basis. They see nothing but that, everyday.

I know thats just my opinion. And everyone else has their own. But my step father was a homicide detective for 27 years. And I have known police officers (family friends) that have died in the line of duty. So, you may know in your camera bag your sporting nothing but a camera. Any smart cop is going to know that in that camera case there could be a gun. Its his job to keep everyone safe and himself alive.

Like Socrates and a few other have said, just be curtious and use simple "yes, sir" "No, sir" answers. Cops feel more comfortable and relaxed when they know you respect them. 

I dont want to sound like you have to bow down and give up your rights. Believe me Im all about standing up for myself and my rights which I have done on many occasion. Matter of fact I have been hassled out on the street and searched. Made the cops mad when I started getting testy and irritated with them and gave them a speech about my rights. They get hostile at bad attitudes. Once I learned that and turned it around, I've been able to talk my way out of most situations easily enough just by being nice.


----------



## abraxas (Apr 13, 2008)

Rand0m411 said:


> You ...



How about you?  You got any photos you can show?


----------



## Rand0m411 (Apr 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> How about you?  You got any photos you can show?



Sure, I need to figure out how to start a user gallery (I dont see how to create mine). Otherwise all my photo posts are in the technical assignments and challenges sections. Im not very good but im willing to show what I have .


----------



## abraxas (Apr 13, 2008)

Socrates said:


> :thumbup:



Socs,

I even doubt the authenticity of your cheerleading. C'mon, show us what the window to your soul sees.  Show us some of your work.  I'd love to see your photos.  You ever take any, or are you just here to cause problems and provoke?


----------



## abraxas (Apr 13, 2008)

Rand0m411 said:


> Sure, I need to figure out how to start a user gallery (I dont see how to create mine). Otherwise all my photo posts are in the technical assignments and challenges sections. Im not very good but im willing to show what I have .




Jeez, forgive me, I could have swore you're just trolling.


----------



## Rand0m411 (Apr 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Jeez, forgive me, I could have swore you're just trolling.



Trolling by giving my opinion in a public forum? You can go ahead and censor me if thats what you wish. /shrug

*Edit* Doesnt trolling have to do with attacking someone on a forum? I dont remember attacking anyone, I only remember giving my 2 cents on the topic.


----------



## That One Guy (Apr 13, 2008)

my 2 cents........maybe the cop was on break. I respect cops and if they can get a few minutes to goof off..........more power to 'em. :thumbup:

and yes Abraxas I have taken photos and I have posted them on this forum before


----------



## abraxas (Apr 13, 2008)

That One Guy said:


> ...
> 
> and yes Abraxas I have taken photos and I have posted them on this forum before



I wouldn't have asked you, I've seen your shots.

Anyway,..


----------



## That One Guy (Apr 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I wouldn't have asked you, I've seen your shots.
> 
> Anyway,..



I was just joking around with ya Abraxas


----------



## ScottS (Apr 13, 2008)

Battou said:


> I have a feeling this one is going to become a rollercoaster just like the last one.


 
Is there a smiley for hitting a nail on the head?


----------



## Battou (Apr 13, 2008)

Rand0m411 said:


> Sure, I need to figure out how to start a user gallery (I dont see how to create mine). Otherwise all my photo posts are in the technical assignments and challenges sections. Im not very good but im willing to show what I have .



Subscription.



Also I do have a question for you

inbound PM


----------



## Arch (Apr 14, 2008)

Well isn't this an interesting read.... only iv read the same arguement several times the last few weeks, the whole topic is a great subject for winding you guys up it seems. So first up bye bye OP.... second im gonna do a Jerry Springer style closing;

This is mainly an arguement about peoples perception of Police Officers. You are always going to have people that will agree with anything an Officer says... and those that will always question what thier rights actually are... the reason for this is simple, the way we were brought up and the beliefs and experiences we've all had.
There is simply no way that one guy on the internet is going to change your opinion of authority and human rights, (unless its some kind of godly Winston Churchill style speach.. that almost makes you cry at the end ).... so look after yourselves... and each other....(see what i did there).

...and third... thread locked, have a nice day.


----------

