# bounce flash question



## mikehaugen (Feb 5, 2011)

Hello all, this is my first post, though definitely not my first time on this site (probably spend too much time reading it).  There are definitely a lot of knowledgeable people here.  I would call myself an intermediate amateur if there is such a thing.  Anyway I am trying to get better with flash and have done a little experimenting with off-camera (not a lot though) but am also trying to do more with on camera for the quickness and convenience sometimes.  I have been reading "on-camera flash techniques for digital wedding and portrait photography" by Neil van Niekerk and it seems like a great book, however in many of his lighting descriptions he says that he bounces his flash off the ceiling behind him.  I understand the bounce flash flash technique but am not sure how bouncing the flash off a ceiling behind you will really light the subject in front of you.  I have not had a good opportunity yet to play around with it, but physics tells me that light bounces off of a flat surface at a supplementary angle- therefore backwards.  I have a pretty powerful flash (550ex) and I am not sure if it relies on the texture of the ceiling to bounce it forward or if it is assumed that it will bounce in all directions after hitting a wall or other object after the ceiling.  Maybe I am reading it wrong or looking too far into it instead of just experimenting.  Any enlightenment would be great.


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## Robin Usagani (Feb 5, 2011)

he uses a flash that can bend backward.  Not all flashes can do that.  Your 550 can only bend backward just a tad.  Anyway, all he is trying to do is to make the source of light LARGER.  So instead having a light source from his flash head, he makes the light source significantly bigger.  By doing that you will see less harsh light and the light will go evenly and wrap around the subject.  IMO, if you are in a small room, bouncing the light off the ceiling vs wall behind you have similar results.


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## mikehaugen (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reply but my question wasn't so much how he pointed it backwards (my flash will go straight backwards if I want it too), but more along the lines of how does light bounced off the ceiling behind you end up lighting a subject in front of you.


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## Josh66 (Feb 5, 2011)

The light bounces off of the wall/ceiling.  It's that simple.  In fact, that's why it's called bounce flash.


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## Josh66 (Feb 5, 2011)

The only reason it works is that light is really, really fast.  As fast as light.


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## Robin Usagani (Feb 5, 2011)

I have two 550 ex and I cant face them backward.


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## KmH (Feb 5, 2011)

Go to his web site www.planetneil.com and ask him.

Pointing an on camera flash unit directly up at the ceiling puts the light source more directly over the subject often causing 'racoon eyes' unless a bounce card is used to direct some of the light forward at the subject.

Pointing the flash unit at the ceiling behind the photographer ensures the bounced light approaches the subject at a shallower angle. However, the inverse square law also kicks in and less light is delivered to the subject, so flash unit power has to be increased lengthening the flash unit re-cycle time and depleteing the flash unit batteries faster.

Another factor could be that there is also a wall behind the photographer so the light bounces twice, 1st off the ceiling, then off the wall before going to the subject. Again though the inverse square law would apply.


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## mikehaugen (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the replies, I knew I would get good help here.  It seems that I was at least partially right- the the light off of other walls (after if bounces off the ceiling) is what is actually going to reach the subject.

Schwettylens- you have to rotate the flash 180 degrees then angle it down- but you can only go 180 degrees to the left, to the right it stops you at 90.  

btw- is the a way to put the degrees symbol on here without actually spelling it out?


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## Josh66 (Feb 5, 2011)

mikehaugen said:


> btw- is the a way to put the degrees symbol on here without actually spelling it out?


Character map, or use the alt-codes.

°

Character map is faster on this computer - no numeric keypad...


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## table1349 (Feb 5, 2011)

Go to the local pool hall.  Don't order any beer.  Play a few games of Carambole.  Once you get the geometry of the game down you will completely understand the geometry of light off of a wall or ceiling.  Same thing.  When banking a ball off of a rail it looses energy.  When bouncing light off of a wall or ceiling you also loose light. 

Only real difference is that the ball stays together go to an exact location while the light will spread out across the location.


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## Robin Usagani (Feb 5, 2011)

Cool LOL..  OMG.. thats what happen when you buy it used and never went to the internet to find the manual 



mikehaugen said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies, I knew I would get good help here. It seems that I was at least partially right- the the light off of other walls (after if bounces off the ceiling) is what is actually going to reach the subject.
> 
> Schwettylens- you have to rotate the flash 180 degrees then angle it down- but you can only go 180 degrees to the left, to the right it stops you at 90.
> 
> btw- is the a way to put the degrees symbol on here without actually spelling it out?


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## Gruen Photo 7 Design (Feb 5, 2011)

i use a lumiquest 80/20 bounce for my ceiling bounces - 80% direct to the ceiling/ 20% directed to subject for fill

just remember to bump up the stops as you will lose anywhere from 1-3 stops on a bounce


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## KmH (Feb 6, 2011)

mikehaugen said:


> btw- is the a way to put the degrees symbol on here without actually spelling it out?


Hold down the Alt key and type 248 on the number keypad (Alt-248) to make the degree symbol °.

http://chexed.com/ComputerTips/asciicodes.php


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## dallasimagery (Feb 6, 2011)

I've read that book too; and found it really informative.  The same principles for bounce flash apply for studio flash - basically you are 'simulating" a key light, and using ambient to fill the rest. That's all there is to it... so I'd google some basic lighting setups like loop light and such. My favorite basic book is "Master lighting guide", great book.


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## IgsEMT (Feb 6, 2011)

Lighting tip - 4 ways to bounce a flash | DIYPhotography.net
Read #2


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## rbraden (Feb 6, 2011)

Please also realize that he does not indiscriminately "bounce the flash off the ceiling behind him".  There is a choice to where the bounce comes from, and it is designed so there is a direction to the light.  There's always a logic to the light.  Also pay attention to how he does bounce off walls, etc., and how he sometimes uses the "black foamie thing" to flag direct light from the flash.


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## Jinkxproof (Feb 15, 2011)

IgsEMT said:


> .....
> Read #2



Thanks, this is great. I am very inexperienced with flash and I'm keen to learn how to achieve a softer evening shot and this was great.. I am defintely going to start looking for a good bounce flash...


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## philsphoto (Feb 15, 2011)

Well, light travels at the speed of light.  I have a 550EX and have angled it up and backwards from the subject.  It's great to just add that soft light that gives some fill flash.  The ceiling and walls will bounce the flash back to the subject.  Due to light fall off, with the distance, the fill flash is subtle.  Great for maintaining the ambience of the room lighting.  I usually drag the shutter, like 1/40th using this method.


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## kundalini (Feb 15, 2011)

KmH said:


> Hold down the Alt key and type 248 on the number keypad (Alt-248) to make the degree symbol °.


 Hmmm, I use ALT+0176.   

°  Hey, one less keystroke.   :thumbup:

back on topic.......

If you're in a spot where the ceiling is too high and a backwall is too far away and you don't have a Lurch standing behind you in a white dress shirt, you can use a collapsible reflector and place it behind you as you reverse fire the flash.


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## Davor (Feb 15, 2011)

are you using a defused in that shot kundalini? , and how much do one of these collapsible reflectors go for


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## AmberNikol (Feb 17, 2011)

Hey I'm new! I'm learning to work with my flash as well, so thanks for the great advice on using your flash!


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## Twisted_Pixel (Feb 17, 2011)

kundalini Thanks for the tip. I do love how you post up sample images on how to do things, on almost every response I've read from you.  And to add to Davor's query on cost of reflectors, what size would be a good starting point?


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## philsphoto (Feb 19, 2011)

I am a real fan of the flash modifier, the "Rogue Flash Bender" http://www.amazon.com/Rogue-FlashBenders-ROGUERESM-Positionable-Reflector/dp/accessories/B003UOIMBW, This modifier attaches directly to the Flash, and you can bend and roll the modifier to meet your needs.  







Read about these picture, and the Rogue Flash Bender on my blog at Phil's Photography

Phil
San Antonio Wedding & Portrait Photography - Phil Photographer


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