# What to charge?? - Starting out



## SayGee (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi all, 
This is my first post, and I'm trying to start a photo business, so please be kind. 

By way of background, I've always loved photography, though it's only the past couple of years that I've been taking it seriously - leaving full automatic settings behind, switched from iPhoto to Aperture, and I enrolled in a comprehensive course. I should spend more time with my course, but both personal circumstances coupled with my learning style have me learning by doing, instead.  I'm well aware that a SAHM with a DSLR does not, in of itself, qualify me to be a professional photographer.  That being said, I've discovered that I do have a good eye and I'm developing my skill.

Over the past several years, I'd be the mom snapping pictures, not just of my kids, but others, too.  In the past, I would post photos in a password protected online gallery (remember ofoto?) and email the link with password to the other moms whose kids were in the photos.  That ended around the time I went from compact camera to DSLR and posted to a MobileMe gallery.  My username notwithstanding, I absolutely love candid photos and strongly prefer not to force the contrived posed 'say cheese' makes me cringe.  I also found both a love and a knack for nature photography (and would love to know how I can make money from some of those shots)

People around know I'm "an aspiring photographer" but it's reached the point of 'poop or get off the pot'

So here's where I am now, and my first of several questions:

One of the ways I've been able to learn by doing is by unofficially and officially volunteering at one of my child's school.  Last year, I took pictures, and just gave them to the school.  They have a website with all school relevant info and also where they post their own pictures (that the teachers take) - it's automatically password protected (PWP) as only parents of those kids can access it.  But, the photos are linked with the ability to purchase, fulfilled by a 3rd party. (foreshadowing here)

While building a portfolio, I'm still shooting whenever and wherever I can (school events, birthday parties, etc).  I don't want to just do freebies (at least not completely) anymore, especially now that people are making so many positive comments, I'm being asked to take photos and/or trusted to be designated photographer for a given school event.  I want to use this as a springboard to being *hired*. 

Since administrative follow through isn't really my strong point, and the irony of timing with MobileMe going away - I figured I'd setup a presence on Zenfolio.  Last week, at the request of one of my children's teachers, I took photos of the kids during a special program at school. I haven't shown anyone the photos yet - and I also have a couple of photo ops in the next couple of weeks.  I need to set something up NOW.

Though I haven't been formally *hired*, I see these as income producing opportunities anyway.  I'm thinking I can and should post these events into their own PWP gallery on my about to be setup Zenfolio page - give the respective links to the teacher and PTO - letting them disseminate to the parents and if the parents want the prints, they can buy them.  layball:

I just don't know what to charge!!  I want to set the prices to reflect a business - high enough to have my time be respected, especially since on these events and many future events, I'm neither paid by the hour, the event or having negotiated some package.  As an example:  for the school events, as both a thank you and a way to keep getting my name out, I would like to charge $X per print, where a percentage of profits would be donated to the PTO. 

Magic question - how much is $X??:scratch:

Thank you, in advance, for your help on this, the first of several questions I have!


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## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 17, 2011)

Have you already purchased insurance, license, etc?


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

While I do appreciate and could use startup cost advice, I really need an idea as to what to charge for specifically the type of situation I described, where there is no contract and I am not formally hired. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see how insurance affects how to price on a per print basis.  Would you please explain and perhaps be able to answer my question under both scenarios?


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## Netskimmer (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> Since administrative follow through isn't really my strong point...



This is a concern. Most photography businesses fail on the business side, not the photography side. There are a lot of things that need to happen to have a successful photography business beyond photographing and advertisement. Make sure these areas are covered. I'm no pro so I can't give you much in the way of specifics regarding price but once you start to charge, the expectation of quality and professionalism tends to go up drastically so don't short change yourself and remember to factor in overhead into the price. Everything from time from the shoot and post processing to wear and tear on your equipment not to mention insurance and licensing as 2WheelPhoto mentioned. There is way too much to cover here. At the very least you should get some books on running a business and ideally take some classes as well. I'm not trying to discourage you, I just want you to cover all your bases so you will have the best chance at succeeding. Good luck!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Oct 18, 2011)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...as-getting-busier-i-need-help.html?highlight=


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks, Netskimmer (you too, 2wheel) - it is neither my plan, nor my expectation to make a living from shooting for nothing and hoping for prints to be  purchased. 

However, I'm not a kid, not a student and not in the workforce each day without my camera.  I'm out there, literally every day  among the very same people who I hope would hire me. - - and rarely without my camera & gear. 

I think it would be foolish to just continue to give my work away and/or turn down opportunities simply because I'm still learning what I need to know.   Pricing per print allows me to take the steps I need and want to take going from Mamarazzi to  Professional Photographer.  Note I said "steps", not "leap".  

I most certainly do need to know more about CODB, insurance, etc  (license??) However, I took photos last week and this past weekend, by request, and have to provide them.  I'll be taking more, both this week and next week.  

Unless I either just give it all away, or worse, burn my reputation by withholding them, I don't have the luxury of time to fully educate myself.   I can buy that time, simply by charging per print and donating a portion of proceeds.  

Do you have a suggestion as to how much I should charge per print?  Or perhaps, do you have a better suggestion that accomplishes the simultaneous need for current project fulfillment and proper business growth?

Thanks,


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...as-getting-busier-i-need-help.html?highlight=


Huh?

UPDATE thanks to Netskimmer:
THANK YOU, Bitter Jeweler. Lots of good info I can't process at this hour, but will read thoroughly.  On an even more personal level, I'm also appreciative that you shared that.


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## Netskimmer (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...as-getting-busier-i-need-help.html?highlight=
> ...



It's a link to a similar post with lots of good info.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation, Netskimmer.  





SayGee said:


> Thanks, Netskimmer (you too, 2wheel) - it is neither my plan, nor my expectation to make a living from shooting for nothing and hoping for prints to be  purchased. However, I'm not a kid, not a student and not in the workforce each day without my camera.  I'm out there, literally every day  among the very same people who I hope would hire me. - - and rarely without my camera & gear. I think it would be foolish to just continue to give my work away and/or turn down opportunities simply because I'm still learning what I need to know.   Pricing per print allows me to take the steps I need and want to take going from Mamarazzi to  Professional Photographer.  Note I said "steps", not "leap".  I most certainly do need to know more about CODB, insurance, etc  (license??) However, I took photos last week and this past weekend, by request, and have to provide them.  I'll be taking more, both this week and next week.  Unless I either just give it all away, or worse, burn my reputation by withholding them, I don't have the luxury of time to fully educate myself.   I can buy that time, simply by charging per print and donating a portion of proceeds.  Do you have a suggestion as to how much I should charge per print?  Or perhaps, do you have a better suggestion that accomplishes the simultaneous need for current project fulfillment and proper business growth?Thanks,


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## tirediron (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> ...I don't see how insurance affects how to price on a per print basis. Would you please explain and perhaps be able to answer my question under both scenarios?


You don't?   Do you even have a business plan????  Okay, simply put:  Insurance costs money, therefore to maintain your standard of income, you will have to factor that cost into your pricing strategy.


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## spacefuzz (Oct 18, 2011)

How much to charge is based on your expenses, your fixed overhead, and how much money you need to make to live.  You should start by figuring out how much your competitors are charging to get a feel for the market.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Look, I certainly understand the relevance of ALL you're saying - business plan, how to price, insurance, etc... for when I'm fully "for hire".
Right NOW, however, while I'm still working on all of that; assessing and investing in my business start-up and maintenance, getting all the little and big ducks in a row, I'm still shooting.  



SayGee said:


> However, I took photos last week and this past weekend, by request, and have to provide them.  I'll be taking more, both this week and next week.  Unless I either just give it all away, or worse, burn my reputation by withholding them, I don't have the luxury of time to fully educate myself. [and instantaneously have a proper business plan]   I can buy that time, simply by charging per print and donating a portion of proceeds. Do you have a suggestion as to how much I should charge per print?  Or perhaps, do you have a better suggestion that accomplishes the simultaneous need for current project fulfillment and proper business growth?Thanks,



All this advice is valuable, and I'm not ignoring it, but my question deals with a few immediate situations, which I consider to great opportunities to be getting name recognition and driving interest in my services when I'm ready to hang the shingle, so to speak.  At the same time, it helps me develop my skills, taking photos I love to take, and helps the schools and temple get good quality photos that they want to have - even better if both they & I could pocket some money from them.

As an aside and PLEASE PLEASE don't ignore the question above - but - I'd like to post some photos for critique - but how can I share images of people who haven't yet signed a release?  (I have releases for some)  This question is for posting here in the forums and the same question for posting an event on my own site, so could be two different answers.


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## spacefuzz (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> Look, I certainly understand the relevance of ALL you're saying - business plan, how to price, insurance, etc... for when I'm fully "for hire".
> Right NOW, however, while I'm still working on all of that; assessing and investing in my business start-up and maintenance, getting all the little and big ducks in a row, I'm still shooting.
> 
> 
> ...



Do you have a suggestion as to how much I should charge per print? Or perhaps, do you have a better suggestion that accomplishes the simultaneous need for current project fulfillment and proper business growth?

Several people have helped you with this.  YOU need to do some leg work to figure out financially how much you need to charge if you want to make money off it. Or if your pressed for time like you say, look at other photographers in your area and start by basing your pricing off thiers (on the assumption they already did the nitty gritty financials).  That will get you a start. 

If you just want a number, $2.57 per 8x10"

You can post photos for critique, people dont need to sign a release for that.  They only need to sign a release if you plan to sell the image via stock photography etc.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Oct 18, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> If you just want a number, $2.57 per 8x10"



Or $25.70 per 8x10. 
I just moved the decimal point.


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## JAC526 (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> While I do appreciate and could use startup cost advice, I really need an idea as to what to charge for specifically the type of situation I described, where there is no contract and I am not formally hired. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see how insurance affects how to price on a per print basis.  Would you please explain and perhaps be able to answer my question under both scenarios?




This does not make sense to me.  First why wouldn't you want a contract?  Second, just because you don't have a contract does not mean you aren't "formally hired."

I would go so far as to say you are either hired or not.

What these people are trying to say is what you charge is directly related to your situation.  Just because I charge x for my 8x10 does not mean you can or need to charge x.

For example, maybe I'm a full-time professional with a studio and a bunch of other expenses.  My living is photography.  My cost basis for a print is going to be a whole lot different than someone who takes pictures on the side or as a supplement to the household income while the kids are in school.

In other words figure out your cost basis.  Figure out how much money you want to make.  Plan accordingly.  Read about how to calculate your costs accurately.  Plan accordingly.

Good luck.


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## CCericola (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi SayGee,

I understand your excitement but the teachers are giving you these opportunities because you are a parent there and The teacher cannot hire you. They can not hire you because you are not a registered business ( be it sole proprietor or LLC or INC, whatever), you do not have liability insurance, you are not certified (this may or may not come into play) and you have not been approved by committee ( be it the principal, PTO or school board)

1. Registered. Not a hard thing to do. Each state has different laws but they are pretty easy to find out. 
2. Taxes. Again, there is a lot of info out there to be had. Like it or not you can't do this tax free. 
3. Insurance. What if you drop your camera on a kid or the kid does something to show off for the camera and gets hurt. The school doesn't care if you have equipment insurance. They could care less. They do require liability insurance. In fact THEIR insurance company requires you to have it as well. Insurance is a no brainer. Do you really want to tell your child they can't live in their house anymore because mommy screwed up and lost the house to pay the lawsuit she just lost? (extreme case but not too far off)
4. Certification. Yup school photographers have it. Whether you are doing the yearbook pics, sports pics, candids at a party etc... SOME schools require that you be certified with the PSPA (PSPA Home Page) I am not certified so there are some jobs I know I cannot get.
5. The dreaded committee. All of what is required for a teacher or school to hire someone is available to the public. So you know exactly if you qualify to be hired by the school. That being said they still might not be able to hire you. Some school photography companies put a clause in their 3-5 year contract with a school that the school CANNOT hire anyone else to do ANY kind of photography. That doesn't stop them from having say, an aspiring parent with a camera do it for free. But as soon as money is involved BAM. The school is in violation of their contract and all HECK breaks loose.

So once you become a business, get all your ducks in a row. You are now ready to calculate how much to charge. You take a gamble and say I need x amount of money. My goal is to book N amount of jobs. Each job will need to bring in Y amount of money. So calculate everything out and go from there.

There ABSOLUTELY NO way for us to tell you what to charge. It is just plain Impossible for anyone here to give you the correct answer. I know it is a lot to think about and very overwhelming. But it is a reality you have to deal with if you want to be in business for yourself. Be it as a photographer, a restauranteur, a clothing boutique, etc...

If you really are passionate about photography save up, apply for business loans and do it the right way. The smart way. Not just for you , but for your family. In 5-10years we might be laughing about this post because you became the premier photographer in your area and other people are coming to you offering you tons of money to buy your book of business. ( happened to my former employer so, yes, it can happen)

Be excited, be passionate. Just don't be stupid.


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## tirediron (Oct 18, 2011)

JAC526 said:


> ...In other words figure out your cost basis. Figure out how much money you want to make. Plan accordingly. Read about how to calculate your costs accurately. Plan accordingly.Good luck.


While all of JAC's advice is good, this ^^ is the critical piece that you need to be clear on.


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 18, 2011)

Check with other established photographers in your area, (via websites is easier) determine if you have the same years of experience, skills etc and then charge what you think you are worth. CCericola is quite right in what was written.  Just having a dollar figure on what to charge for a print won't make you a successful photographer without knowing what the photo market is like in your area.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Incredibly grateful for such a detailed and trmendously useful reply, CC (and am grateful for the other posts as well). Simply, I've volunteered even when they weren't necessarily even looking for anyone and yes, now I'm being asked. *Your description of the circumstances is fairly accurate. I've already been speaking with the PTO, principal and even the district - but holding off on formal talks until I'm truly up and running. In the meantime, though, any suggestion as to how I should go about providing the images I've already taken and am about to take?? Are you suggesting I'm putting myself at risk by setting up a presence on Zenfolio (or similar)? 





CCericola said:


> Hi SayGee,I understand your excitement but the teachers are giving you these opportunities because you are a parent there and The teacher cannot hire you. They can not hire you because you are not a registered business ( be it sole proprietor or LLC or INC, whatever), you do not have liability insurance, you are not certified (this may or may not come into play) and you have not been approved by committee ( be it the principal, PTO or school board)1. Registered. Not a hard thing to do. Each state has different laws but they are pretty easy to find out. 2. Taxes. Again, there is a lot of info out there to be had. Like it or not you can't do this tax free. 3. Insurance. What if you drop your camera on a kid or the kid does something to show off for the camera and gets hurt. The school doesn't care if you have equipment insurance. They could care less. They do require liability insurance. In fact THEIR insurance company requires you to have it as well. Insurance is a no brainer. Do you really want to tell your child they can't live in their house anymore because mommy screwed up and lost the house to pay the lawsuit she just lost? (extreme case but not too far off)4. Certification. Yup school photographers have it. Whether you are doing the yearbook pics, sports pics, candids at a party etc... SOME schools require that you be certified with the PSPA (PSPA Home Page) I am not certified so there are some jobs I know I cannot get.5. The dreaded committee. All of what is required for a teacher or school to hire someone is available to the public. So you know exactly if you qualify to be hired by the school. That being said they still might not be able to hire you. Some school photography companies put a clause in their 3-5 year contract with a school that the school CANNOT hire anyone else to do ANY kind of photography. That doesn't stop them from having say, an aspiring parent with a camera do it for free. But as soon as money is involved BAM. The school is in violation of their contract and all HECK breaks loose.So once you become a business, get all your ducks in a row. You are now ready to calculate how much to charge. You take a gamble and say I need x amount of money. My goal is to book N amount of jobs. Each job will need to bring in Y amount of money. So calculate everything out and go from there.There ABSOLUTELY NO way for us to tell you what to charge. It is just plain Impossible for anyone here to give you the correct answer. I know it is a lot to think about and very overwhelming. But it is a reality you have to deal with if you want to be in business for yourself. Be it as a photographer, a restauranteur, a clothing boutique, etc...If you really are passionate about photography save up, apply for business loans and do it the right way. The smart way. Not just for you , but for your family. In 5-10years we might be laughing about this post because you became the premier photographer in your area and other people are coming to you offering you tons of money to buy your book of business. ( happened to my former employer so, yes, it can happen)Be excited, be passionate. Just don't be stupid.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> You can post photos for critique, people dont need to sign a release for that.  They only need to sign a release if you plan to sell the image via stock photography etc.



Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that. 

  I have a couple of my better shots that are of kids, but those particulr parents are adamant about Internet safety and their children and would not sign a release to allow me to use the photos my (w.i.p) online portfolio.  

What you've said suggests I could use the images  for anything other than a direct sale of that image - (but won't anyway now that I know the wishes of the parents).  

I'd love if you were right about this, but I'm fairly certain you're not.  So how is posting for critique okay, but my online portfolio or FB, etc isn't??


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## KmH (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that.


Investigate the legal differences between a commercial use, and an editorial use.

I recommend the following book that covers both model/property release issues, among much else:
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things



> When you put your images on the web, in a portfolio, in a catalog to promote yourself, or to make the photos available for sale or licensing, this form of self-publishiing is not considered a form of commercial use that requires a release from the subjects in your photos. (page 127).



I highly recommend you get qualified legal advice before you get much further along. In court, they don't care what urban legend, dead wrong legal information you took as gospel.

You clearly have a lot of homework yet to do.


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## Kerbouchard (Oct 18, 2011)

You can post and use, just about any image you take either online for critique, or in your portfolio.

For your portfolio, you aren't implying endorsement.  You are simply showing an example of your copyrighted art.  As far as asking for critique, it's your art, you are entitled to share it with your peers to ask how to improve.

Now, if you take a picture of a bride, sell it to a dress manufacturer, and throw a caption under it implying the subject is endorsing the brand, you have a problem.  On the flip side, when I shoot a wedding, some photos of the guests are a part of my portfolio, and all are offered to the bride, groom, family, etc for purchase.  Obviously, we don't have everybody at the wedding sign a photo release...That would be nuts.

In any case, the use of photos gets a bit grey when there are recognizable trademarks in the image, when it's images on private property, or when you are at an event that you paid to get into that had T&C's on their website or the ticket.

Regardless, I shot a charity event recently and this is the pricing structure I gave them.  Proceeds are going to St. Judes so I wanted to make sure there was money in there for the charity but I wasn't worried about getting paid.

Loose Prints:
4x5/4x6/5x7                       $2.00
8x10/8x12                           $6.00
16x20                                    $24.00

Options that are ready to hang.
 A standout mounted to 1.5&#8221; foam                                                            8x10 $40, 16x20 $80
Canvas on a 1.5&#8221; board mounted in a gallery wrap style                  8x10 $70, 16x20 $110 
Custom Framed, Matted, and Mounted                                                                8x10 $60, 16x20 $140

I wanted to keep it simple, get lots of orders, and make some money for St. Jude.  Worked out pretty well.

Now, on the other hand, I don't mind donating my time for this event, so I'm doing it for free, and everything goes to charity.

If I was trying to make money, I would have doubled or trippled a lot of the prices, got less orders, made more money, and had a lot less work.  

If you're constantly busy or booked, you are probably charging too little.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

Thank you so much, Kerbouchard!  I truly appreciate the price guide.  I also appreciate your giving an actual answer, not just a book or article recommendation (which, btw, i appreciate those too - but not as the exclusive answer).


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## shootermcgavin (Oct 18, 2011)

I've never done a school shoot and probably won't cuz it's not my thing but this is what I would do from a marketing/ease of business stand point to get a schools business and keep hassles low.  As a service you do not have to charge sales tax, so if you charge them a fee to come in and shoot say for 4 hours you charge $750 or something and then you tell the school that they will make all proceeds off pictures ordered, then even Dads like me that think those pictures are the biggest waste of money won't feel so bad when it's for charity.  I had a friend who recently did something like that with real estate and it was a huge success, he donated 1/2 of all sales to the high schools track team.  I hear the sales tax thing come up a lot in this forum, to me it seems like a clump of wasted time I would try to work your way around it and offer a service rather than a good.  Come tax time you will be a lot more bearable to be around.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

KmH said:


> SayGee said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm.... Now, I realize I'm the new kid and all, but, from my understanding, if I take a photo of someone and post it online without a release, and that person sees said photo, I could have a problem - and a not so small one at that.
> ...




KmH - Feel free to unleash your haughtiness regarding other issues, though you might want to tone it down a wee bit. But before you start preaching "gospel - the reader's digest version"; you also might want to consult your own attorney.


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## dieselbear (Oct 18, 2011)

Wow, what a topic.  I was in the same boat as you.  
I just jumped out!!!!
I think i will be selfish and take my pics when i feel like it.
Forget this, i'm pretty sure it won't be fun for me if it becomes a hassle. 

Great advice from everyone. It's a very interesting forum. 
I've been lurking for a while


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## Kerbouchard (Oct 18, 2011)

KMH is actually right this time...I took particular note of it because of how often he has been wrong about copyright and usage issues in the past.  I'm glad that he seems to have finally gotten around to reading some of the things he quotes and recommends.

Based on what you have said, I would say legally, you are good to go...obviously, an attorney would likely be able to provide you with documentation and supporting evidence in the event there was a problem.  Regardless, it sounds like the parents specifically said they didn't want those images posted anywhere online.  Good taste and decency would, IMO, prevail over your 'legal right' in this case, and I wouldn't post them.

Specifically, a model release is to allow you to use their image in any way outlined by the release.  It has nothing to do with your right, as the photographer to show your work.

In any case, the bad rep from going against the parents wishes would probably ruin you as a photographer, so, IMO, it's not worth messing with.


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## SayGee (Oct 18, 2011)

SayGee said:


> I have a couple of my better shots that are of kids, but those particulr parents are adamant about Internet safety and their children and would not sign a release to allow me to use the photos my (w.i.p) online portfolio.
> 
> What you've said suggests I could use the images  for anything other than a direct sale of that image - (but won't anyway now that I know the wishes of the parents).




I'm right there with you, Kebouchard and thank you, again, for the clarification.  I know the matter of the need for releases can get a bit fuzzy at times.  I just don't think it's appropriate for KmH to be so mulish towards a newbie erring on the side of conservatism, particularly after choosing such an intellectually obvious and more importantly, respectful path. 

KmH, thank you for editing your post so as to also include a snippet, however, as I just said - the matter of need for releases can get a bit fuzzy at times.  Better safe than sorry.


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 19, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> I've never done a school shoot and probably won't cuz it's not my thing but this is what I would do from a marketing/ease of business stand point to get a schools business and keep hassles low. As a service you do not have to charge sales tax, so if you charge them a fee to come in and shoot say for 4 hours you charge $750 or something and then you tell the school that they will make all proceeds off pictures ordered, then even Dads like me that think those pictures are the biggest waste of money won't feel so bad when it's for charity. I had a friend who recently did something like that with real estate and it was a huge success, he donated 1/2 of all sales to the high schools track team. I hear the sales tax thing come up a lot in this forum, to me it seems like a clump of wasted time I would try to work your way around it and offer a service rather than a good. Come tax time you will be a lot more bearable to be around.



This person is just starting out and you want them to start charging $750 for 4 hours of work and not charge tax on the fees.  I have always charged taxes on my professional fees, but then that could be just a Canadian thing.   Are you telling her to find a way around having to pay taxes on earned income? Perhaps I'm wrong or isn't not paying taxes a criminal concern?


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## CCericola (Oct 19, 2011)

There is a difference between income tax and sales tax. I believe ShooterMcGavin was referring to sales tax. In his area he may not have to charge sales tax for services. In NJ for instance, I don't have to charge sales tax for clothing. So if I have a client that wants T-shirts there is no need to charge sales tax on the clothing.

 Each state had different tax laws, in some states tax laws vary by county or city. One just has to find out what the rules are and go from there. It is not as hard as I thought it was. Some states require you charge sales tax for services as well as products, some don't. But as a business owner you already know this going in. 

I have a business manager so I admit I don't pay A LOT of attention to such things anymore and I know a lot of states have amended tax laws (especially California).


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 19, 2011)

Tax laws being different worldwide. I charge sales tax on everything I sell, including my photography shoot fees within Canada, each tax is different based on province. Anything sold outside Canada has no sales tax added.  The taxes are collected and then submitted back to the government, afterall the government doesn't make any money they just take it.


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## CCericola (Oct 19, 2011)

Well since the OP is not Canadian I'm not sure where you are going with this.


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## SayGee (Oct 19, 2011)

While I appreciate so  much of the needed business info (taxes, etc) and would likely have been posting additional threads on topics like these and would love to continue to have the benefit of all your experience and wisdom, please realize that this specific thread was intended to focus on what I should do about photos I've already taken. 


Obviously, I can't go to anyone and say "hey, remember those photos I took, well, I should've charged, for example, $x per hour and oh, by the way, sign this contract  - retroactively"


That being said, in light of all the  significant business issues you all have been kind enough to highlight, is there any reason NOT to:

1.  set up a Zenfolio, or similar, web presence - start a portfolio and post the photos I've taken into PWP (password protected) galleries so theyre accessible to those to whom I have to provide them?

and if okay to do

2.  Make the price per print at a level like $3-5 for 4x6 

BUT

3.  Provide a "coupon" for significant (and i do mean significant) discount for these specific photos that also will have a portion of proceeds go to the respective institutions. 

Recognize that this is a fulfillment issue and a marketing issue.  

My immediate goal on this is more to show I'm shifting or have shifted from "Aspiring Pro" to Pro than it is to make money on these specific photos - I just don't want to burn myself by completely giving the farm away nor do I want to piss people off with audacious pricing for something. 

It's also a start for showcasing my work beyond showing someone photos on my iPad.


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## spacefuzz (Oct 19, 2011)

SayGee said:


> While I appreciate so much of the needed business info (taxes, etc) and would likely have been posting additional threads on topics like these and would love to continue to have the benefit of all your experience and wisdom, please realize that this specific thread was intended to focus on what I should do about photos I've already taken.
> 
> 
> Obviously, I can't go to anyone and say "hey, remember those photos I took, well, I should've charged, for example, $x per hour and oh, by the way, sign this contract - retroactively"
> ...



Just keep in mind SayGee that people here are giving you really good advice about how to approach all of this stuff, just because you dont know it doesnt mean you dont need to. Seeking answers to the questions raised by others will lead you to the answers for what you asked. 

1. no reason why not
2. seems too cheap to me

And this may be my opinion, but I do not think that charging for your photos makes you PRO. I think Pro is more of a skill level.


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## KmH (Oct 19, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> KMH is actually right this time...I took particular note of it because of how often he has been wrong about copyright and usage issues in the past.


I am about the only forum member who _*ever*_ provides links to the pertinent copyright and usage information, and I do it routinely.


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 19, 2011)

CCericola said:


> Well since the OP is not Canadian I'm not sure where you are going with this.



Just speaking my professional point of view. You're right, it has absolutley no value to the OP other than she doesn't seem to have a "real" idea of the professional side of photography. There are photographers from all over the world that offer up opinions that have no influence on the topics and yet they add the information anyway.  Information is information, regardless. There are Canadian amateurs on this forum that may be reading this thread and don't know anything about the Canadian sales tax regulations , now they do.


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## Kerbouchard (Oct 19, 2011)

KmH said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > KMH is actually right this time...I took particular note of it because of how often he has been wrong about copyright and usage issues in the past.
> ...



Yep, and the next line of the quote that you snipped acknowledged that you routinely post links...it also stated that you must have finally gotten around to reading some of them.


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## CCericola (Oct 19, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > Well since the OP is not Canadian I'm not sure where you are going with this.
> ...




Ok, Ok I see what you mean now I get why you posted that. 
Sometimes I get what my husband calls "Blonde Moments"


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## SayGee (Oct 19, 2011)

spacefuzz said:
			
		

> Just keep in mind SayGee that people here are giving you really good advice about how to approach all of this stuff, just because you dont know it doesnt mean you dont need to. Seeking answers to the questions raised by others will lead you to the answers for what you asked.



Thanks, spacefuzz - I think I've been pretty consistent in expressing both my appreciation  for all that advice, and my recognizing/acknowledging that need to have it shared with me. 

I hope you and others don't misinterpret my attempts to get immediate actionable guidance that directly addresses my highlighted issue. 



			
				spacefuzz said:
			
		

> 1. no reason why not
> 2. seems too cheap to me
> 
> And this may be my opinion, but I do not think that charging for your photos makes you PRO. I think Pro is more of a skill level.



And again, thanks for the direct response to my specific questions - if anyone else is willing to chime in, please do.  

BTW -  I agree that Pro is skill-based, but at the end of the day, Pros get paid. My skill is nowhere near where I strive for it to be or where it will be 6 years or even 6 months from now.  But i know it's my time now.  It's all a journey, right?

So exciting!

Sent from my iPad using PhotoForum


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 19, 2011)

CCericola said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > CCericola said:
> ...



No worries


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## bentcountershaft (Oct 19, 2011)

Sales tax laws can definitely be confusing from place to place, no doubt about that.  You can't get away with the service charges instead of selling goods to avoid sales tax in my state because those are taxable too here thanks to the car dealers.  Labor isn't subject to sales tax here but I think you would have to be considered a contractor doing work for hire and not own any of the images that way, which I wouldn't recommend.


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## Patrice (Oct 19, 2011)

SayGee,

Have you asked the school if they would give you the work if you wanted to get paid? Could be the school was grateful for the freebee but in no way would they fork over cash for the same in the future. Schools, social organizations, seniors clubs, etc... from around here really like anybody who provides free services to them, but they won't pay a red penny if they had to. They'd simply go ask for another volunteer and take whatever comes out.

As to you price for prints of photos already taken, if you can recover your variable costs (ie: paper, ink, delivery...) at $3 per print then go right ahead if that is ok with you and if anybody wants to buy them.


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## SayGee (Oct 19, 2011)

INTERESTING UPDATE

Earlier today I decided I'm definitely setting up Zenfolio tonight and over the next few days.  Though how much per print I hadn't yet decided completely. 

Using Zenfolio for order fulfillment takes care of the issue of sales tax.  Also, once I make a minimum of $600 within a given tax year, they will generate a 1099 for me as required by the IRS. 

Of course, that only applies to what I make via the Zenfolio website.  I will speak with my accountant about all of this. 

Insurance, though, that one could be a bit trickier.  Let's see - Equipment, etc could either be a separate policy or could be on a rider to my homeowners policy, right?
Can liability be added there too?  

I thought I could address this in more detail maybe over the weekend or next week. But......

Meanwhile, after an event with my kids, this evening, one of the moms who's a friendly acquaintance, asked me if I'd come and take photos of her kids.   "I'll pay you for the photos - I ordered clothes for the kids ". 

NOW - my forum community - if you were ME -  what would you have done and what would you do now and tomorrow?

Would you have said. 
I'd love to take the photos but I'm not established yet so you should go to someone else. 

OR

Would you have said:  
I'd love to take the photos but I'm not established yet so I'll just charge you my cost for your prints. 

OR 

Would you have answered as I did?
here's how the rest of the conversation went:

I smiled and said "I'd love to, although I don't just get paid per photo"

Her: "okay. How much?"

Me: "Let's talk tomorrow [while our kids are at an activity together] about what you'd like, since time is a major factor in determining my fee. "

Her: "sounds good. I really want to do this soon"

Me: "this weekend is supposed to be sunny and in the 60's - great fall weather for photos"

Her: "I'll talk to you tomorrow. I have to see if I can find the clothes I ordered from another store so I can have them on time!"

Me: "sounds great. See you tomorrow"

Me: come home, put kids to sleep. Eat something. Post this on here. 

Now off to check for the umpteenth time what fees and types of packages are typical around here.  

By the way, this mom also said she'd easily spend $10 on a 5x7 of a really good random photo of her kid(s) taken at school. 

So - here's where I am now.  Be kind, but please suggest practical & actionable next steps that I should take over the next few days.  

Thanks!!!


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## SayGee (Oct 19, 2011)

Patrice said:
			
		

> SayGee,
> 
> Have you asked the school if they would give you the work if you wanted to get paid? Could be the school was grateful for the freebee but in no way would they fork over cash for the same in the future. Schools, social organizations, seniors clubs, etc... from around here really like anybody who provides free services to them, but they won't pay a red penny if they had to. They'd simply go ask for another volunteer and take whatever comes out.



No, I haven't and only in part for the exact reason you mentioned. I love my children.  Even before becoming a mom, I always hoped that when I  became one, I would be able to be a SAHM so I could be hands-on with them and be involved in the school, events, field trips, fundraisers - all of it.  I wanted to make a positive difference in the mini-community my children would be (and are now) part of. 

They and I were lucky I've been able to do this since each of their births and we have all benefited greatly from this.  

My whole life, I've loved snapping photos.  I still have dozens of 'developed photos of fireworks' from my instamatic from when I was a little kid.  They're blackish/gray with maybe a teeny tiny spec of red from the fireworks. I doubt anyone but me could identify them. 

I have boxes upon boxes of photos I took all through growing up into adulthood before my first digital camera. I can't tell you most of the names of the people I took photos of, but they're mostly candids of people I went to school or camp with.  I always loved taking photos with my camera. I just never learned anything about photography. 

My very first post of this thread should fill in the gap to where I am now. 

I absolutely love taking candids, etc and have always loved taking photos of kids at events and parties. 

Well, now I have to re-enter the income producing workforce.  Okay, fine. They say " If you love what you do, you never have to work a day in your life."

I love the job I've been doing.  
I also love my camera and my iMac (doing digital design)

Taking photos at the school keeps me and my children happy, satisfying two of my goals. 
The fact "they" won't pay is not the concern. My goal is to continue developing the trusting relationship we have and along with the PTO they let my photos even be shown to all the parents, having them know which were taken, specifically by me.

It only makes sense that I'm not charging the school for my time and it would make sense to all of them too.   PTO members  are volunteers - many of whom work hard every day, doing the very same things they get paid to do in the workforce. 

If they always see me with my camera and they see and like the results and since they already know the trust hurdles of the school even allowing  me to take the photos I've already taken - I'd like to think that I am the photographer they will want to hire for their own events.   

The website will show them more than just what they know i'm taking in the classrooms or on the fields. And of course create the opportunity to recover some costs. 

It's a loss leader. One I'm happy to have, as long as I can afford to keep.  (scroll down for my last post "Interesting update")



			
				Patrice said:
			
		

> As to you price for prints of photos already taken, if you can recover your variable costs (ie: paper, ink, delivery...) at $3 per print then go right ahead if that is ok with you and if anybody wants to buy them.



Sent from my iPad using PhotoForum


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## Bitter Jeweler (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes you can get an Umbrella $1 million liability policy for you/your business, bundled with your home owners, auto, etc. For about $250 to $500  a year.


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## dieselbear (Oct 21, 2011)

Saygee, 
I'm in Iowa and we paid a photographer $100 for an hour of shooting and she gave us a CD with 60 edited photos to do with as we please.  This is what I planned on doing. Charging one flat rate and let the customer order what they want at whatever photo place they choose.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Oct 21, 2011)

dieselbear said:


> Saygee,
> I'm in Iowa and we paid a photographer $100 for an hour of shooting and she gave us a CD with 60 edited photos to do with as we please.  This is what I planned on doing. Charging one flat rate and let the customer order what they want at whatever photo place they choose.



It's a race to the bottom!

Read this: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...as-getting-busier-i-need-help.html?highlight=


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## dieselbear (Oct 21, 2011)

I agree bitter,thanks for sharing the thread. I've changed my mind about trying anything other than hobby shooting.  I think i have a lot to learn, and some dues to pay before I consider myself that good to charge anything.


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## camz (Oct 21, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Read this: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...as-getting-busier-i-need-help.html?highlight=


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## KmH (Oct 21, 2011)

dieselbear said:


> Saygee,
> I'm in Iowa and we paid a photographer $100 for an hour of shooting and she gave us a CD with 60 edited photos to do with as we please.  This is what I planned on doing. Charging one flat rate and let the customer order what they want at whatever photo place they choose.


So people are selling photographs as if they were a commodity. A little math shows that 60 edited photos for $100 comes to $1.66 a photo.

Think about how much that photographer actually made on a per hour basis. How long did it take to edit 60 photos? How much time was spent with you, the customer, pre shoot and post shoot.

15 minutes pre shoot with customer. 15 minutes equipment prep for the shoot. 1 hour of shooting. 15 minutes spent with the customer post shoot. 30 minutes to upload the images to the computer and cull/organize/sort them. 2 hours to edit the 60 photos. 15 minutes to burn them to a disc.

So say about 4 hours work and $100 pay, so $25.00 an hour.

Not bad huh?

Oops. We are not done yet. Out of that $25 per hour the photographer has to pay their non-reimbursed business expenses, state sales and use taxes (if applicable), state and federal income taxes, unemployment insurance taxes. 

What are non-reimbursed business expenses?

phone costs
computers
software
office supplies
advertising and promotion
web site
business liability insurance
equipment insurance
health insurance
Internet access costs
salary
and more
So the customer goes to Wal-mart/Walgreens/Staples to get prints made. You put 3:2 aspect ratio photos on the CD but the customer is wanting to get 5:4 and 7:5 aspect ratio photos printed, and parts they want to print are getting cut off because the aspect ratios are all different.

Anyway, they get the prints made but the local place didn't do a real good job and the prints came out ok, but not really good. But, they show those less than high quality prints to all their friends and say that the photo was taken by XYZ Photography. 

But sure, go ahead and just give a CD with photos on it.


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## orljustin (Oct 22, 2011)

Lol, another MWAC thread.  Sorry I missed the fun ...


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## dieselbear (Oct 22, 2011)

U guys have good points.  Didn't think of it that way.


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## KmH (Oct 22, 2011)

85% of small businesses fail. The #1 reason they fail is because the business owner didn't know _how_ to run a business.

A successful retail photography business owner spends much more time doing business tasks than doing photography and photography tasks.


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## spacefuzz (Oct 22, 2011)

KmH said:


> 85% of small businesses fail. The #1 reason they fail is because the business owner didn't know _how_ to run a business.
> 
> A successful retail photography business owner spends much more time doing business tasks than doing photography and photography tasks.



Isnt that the unfortunate truth, spent the last two weekend not shooting because of it


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## Redeyejedi (Dec 8, 2011)

KmH said:


> dieselbear said:
> 
> 
> > Saygee,
> ...



very helpful post in helping me truly realize the bigger picture.


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