# Unhappy Customer - What is reasonable?



## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, the unhappy customer is me.  

I had a promo video shot for the new studio on April 14th.  In our discussions, I had explained what were the key elements for me, and there were 3 things I needed from the video. 1) that is was short and sweet - 1:30 was ideal but anywhere in the 1-2 minute range would likely do.  2) that it showed me coaching the clients and giving that positive reinforcement.  I was working with regular clients, not models, and I really wanted to show that my sessions are fun, an experience, and that anyone can do it. 3) to show my team, and that we work as a team. My hair and makeup girls are a critical part of the experience.

The first cut of the video was 5 minutes long.  There was 2.5 seconds each of the hair and makeup people. There was not a single frame of my face, until the end, where there was me talking, that I thought was for sound bites.

We worked away and got it cut back to 2.5 minutes, but the video looks like a model shoot. You would never know that it had anything to do with me, my team, my studio, other than my logo in the opening.

I paid a deposit up front. She had an additional 10 hours editing time (some of which came from her trying to find enough clips to fill the song, which I specifially had not requested) although her first estimate was 3 hours.  At this point, I am not happy with the end product, and it is not an accurate reflection of how we work or what we do, or how people feel before, during, or after a shoot.

I dont want to sink more money into editing to maybe try get it closer to something usable. At this point, I think it would be better to walk away without the video at all.  If that was the case, what do you feel would be reasonable compensation for the videographer?  She is a fabulous person, and I have no ill will towards her, but this was just a miss.

Suggestions?

Note, I did let her know my feelings about this, and I am waiting for a response from her. 

Thanks,
K


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## CCericola (Apr 26, 2012)

Does the contract say anything about a satisfaction guarentee? I would ask for an itemized list of charges and only pay her for her labor costs.


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

There is nothing about a satisfaction guaruntee.  Are you meaning for all her time CCericola?


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## CCericola (Apr 26, 2012)

The agreed time amount. 3 hours right?


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

Right.  3 hours was the estimate.


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## Overread (Apr 26, 2012)

Well estimations are never a 100% guarantee - does the contract between you outline the specific requirements that you've stated for the video to meet. It sounds like your best course of action to challenge the contract is on the basis that the delivered product is different to the originally agreed product. 

However that might get a little sticky in the technicalities so you might well want to propose your case to local lawyers for some really firm advice (most should give you a half hour or a bit more to at least present your case and give you estimations on their costs and if its worth actually following through).


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

I am really just trying to find out what is reasonable.  If you just had a flop of a shoot, and the client said you know, I'm sorry, but this just isnt working for me, would you walk away and take a bit of a loss knowing you had missed the mark? Like if you missed the cake smash of a 1 year old shoot, or got no pictures of a single band member in a group shoot - something like that...

I dont want to get lawyered up or even think about it.  I am trying to just be fair in what I ask for.  I'm sure we can work it out resonably, but I just don't know what is reasonable.  I don't want the video as is and will not spend more money to get it closer to what I want when so many critical parts are missing.  I have only seen a proof and have not been delivered anything.

To complicate things, she stayed longer on the shoot day, and I asked if she wanted to get paid for that time, or if she was interested in trading for a shoot (she said a few times she wanted to book in with me) and she agreed a trade would be great (or partial trade depending on the time for editing).


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## Overread (Apr 26, 2012)

Have you checked their website/contact details for what happens if a client is not satisfied with the goods. On the one hand you are a client not wanting to pay for goods that you've not really had delivered - on the other side you've a worker who will want payment for the time they've put into producing the product. 

Generally, even if you are not going to use a product, you would still be expected to pay for its development as the videographer has put time into its production. 

That's why the details on the design of the product are important. If what is delivered is vastly different to what you agreed then the problem is in the videographers court for not producing what was defined in the contact/agreement. Far as I know, at that point, it comes down to either firing them for failure to deliver on the contact or contacting them to arrange to see if the product can be altered to better fit the requirements of the contract (in my view that should be time spent without additional cost to you - provided that you don't make any changes to the original contracts requirements).


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 26, 2012)

I did a shoot a while back, pictures were great, client had failed to point out one small element, they wanted ID's on all the people I shot at the reception. They said they couldn't use any of the photos, so I just bit the bullet and said thanks for the opportunity, and told them that there was no charge.  It was a detail they overlooked, but we all ended up losing out on it.  If the client is not happy with the final result and the specfics have all been laid out before hand, then it is up to the photographer, in this case video, to do it right or not charge for it.


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 26, 2012)

I go along with what imagemaker46 mentioned. The wife asked me the same type of question last night. But that doesnt mean your videographer will have the same outlook.


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## Derrel (Apr 26, 2012)

Ouch! Man, this is one sticky situation. Plenty of things to learn, for both parties, and issues/problems to learn from. This situation really is a mess. Sorry to hear about how unsatisfactory the entire project ended up being. Hopefully, you can explain your problems and concerns to somebody who is ethical,responsible, and mature enough to come to some kind of reasonable compromise for both parties. Buuut...I have doubts that such will be the case.


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

She is a sweetheart of a person, and we did have everything laid out, so she knew exactly what I was expecting.  When corrosponding with her I referenced the points we had worked out before hand.  I have no problem paying for some of her time, but seeing as I will not be able to use the end product (at this point I would not want to accept delivery) I donèt feel like I should be on the hook for additional editing time, when the changes made didnt really bring the end product any closer to the contracted requirements.

I do not want a refund - but hopefully we can negoiate something that works for both.  I will keep yall updated.


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## KmH (Apr 26, 2012)

A negotiation is successful when both parties feel like they won.

You have read the book, and have it on the shelf for ready reference - right? - The Photographer's Guide to Negotiating

How much do you, and the videographer, know about shooting video? Like the 3-act structure, and the shooting ratio.

If there are 3 main characters, like you, the hair stylist, and the MUA, a 4:1 shoot ratio is needed (assuming no retakes) - a master shot and 3 close ups.


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

I know NOTHING about video.  But she does. 

I just let her know what I wanted, in writing:  Team (me hair mua)**, coaching the clients**, final stills of end shots (which I provided) details (champagne, strawberries, decor) gave her the music, the required length, etc.


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## CMfromIL (Apr 26, 2012)

If you are not happy, then the videographer should do everything to make it 'right'. You didn't get what you asked for, so I would respectfully ask for a do-over.

The fact that she spent 10 hours editing is irrelevant to the discussion. It's like buying a cake that tastes terrible, is not the flavor you wanted, and the decorations were hand painted by small children. But the baker's response to your complaint is "Yeah but I spent like 20 hours making it". Big Flippin' Deal.

I would ask for either a re-shoot at her expense as it didn't meet your expectations (that had been laid out previous) OR a refund so that you can hire another videographer to do it.

You don't have to be snotty, or unprofessional about it. Business is business. Based on your presentation of the 'facts' I would ask for the do-over or a refund.

Good luck.


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## camz (Apr 26, 2012)

Well if you are in good terms with this person, my initial offer to her would be the cost of her time involved with the project...hourly rate perhaps ?  And I mean no mark-up involved here as there is no product delivered.  I would compensate her for the operation costs to where the effort of their business remains afloat from this project.  Just the bare bones.

Hopefully you guys work it out.


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## rub (Apr 26, 2012)

That's what I am hoping for camz.  Im just wondering if thats reasonable.  I know if it was me I would think that was fair.  Oh and did you see the "after" pic of the studio Cameron????


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## camz (Apr 26, 2012)

No I haven't.

I haven't been around in the last few months!   I wanna see I wanna see.


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## rub (Apr 29, 2012)

I contacted her again on Thursday and she was busy. She hasn't made any effort to contact me since. Hopefully tomorrow she will but how long do I wait?


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## Josh66 (Apr 29, 2012)

How long do you wait for what?  What's the next step?  Have you given her any money yet?

It doesn't sound like there is really any good communication going on.  She doesn't seem to know what you want, you don't know how to get in contact with her, you have a product you don't want...


What happens if she doesn't call you back?


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## rub (Apr 30, 2012)

She knows what I want. It was all very clearly laid put. I have given her a deposit on services, yes. I would just like to talk with her so we can work towards a resolution. 

I could ask for a refund due to the total miss on her part. But I would rather cut losses and just walk away. I guess I just want us to get along and work this out. And waiting a week for a response seems strange to me.


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

Well, if she knew what you wanted, and failed to deliver - I'm not sure that I would pay anything.  That depends on what the contracts say though, of course.  In the work I do, customer acceptance is key.  Nothing is 'bought' till it is 100% to the customer's satisifaction.

Waiting a week to reply to a customer is very unprofessional, in my book...  Especially an unhappy customer.


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## mirrorrim (Apr 30, 2012)

I see red flags all over the place...

1. You say you clearly laid out what you want for the shoot. Any decent videographer would know that the focus of the video should be you (ie, your face!) and your supporting team members (2.5 secs each?!). Did she give you any kind of outline of how the shoot should go, or direct you in any way? If she just stood there and filmed, I'd be worried that she didnt have a plan for how she is going to edit everything together. The part about not having enough footage to fill the song, despite not following your directions, is a key example that she doesnt know what she's doing. Good videographers know they need to record early, cut late, and schedule enough shots to fill the required amount of time. 

2. Gross overestimation of editing time, more than 3x what she quoted you. You should not pay for her to fix her own mistakes because she completely missed the mark on the video.

3. She hasn't responded to your polite correspondence in a week. BIG red flag. Unprofessional. She is avoiding you! There is no excuse--it takes less than 5 mins to respond. She either does not want to continue working with you, or she knows she did a very poor job. Either way, I would not trust her anymore.

4. You keep saying how sweet and friendly she is. Con men are sweet and friendly, too. Not saying she is purposely trying to con you, but this is a business decision- you hired her, paid a deposit, expected a professional product in return, and didnt get anything anywhere close to it. She is now not responding to you. She's incompetent, unprofessional, and "friendly." 

Depending on how much the deposit was, if it wasnt too bad, I'd cut my losses. Send her one more email that because of the unsatisfactory job and that you werent able to get in touch with her in a reasonable amount of time, the contract has not been fulfilled and you will not be paying the rest of her fee. (And if you have any of the video, dont use it in any way for your business. She could sue you and ask for full amount of what she charges, because you wouldnt use a video that you found unsatisfactory).


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## rub (Apr 30, 2012)

The reason why I am not asking for a full refund at this point is I know she traveled 2 hours each way to shoot, and did spend a lot of time editing. I also did get to use the video for some time because it was so long and late on delivery i was very reluctant to show it.  I know that I am probably being too nice, okay that I am being too nice. But I also don't want to cause problems. I have seen other work by her and her husband and was very impressed. I'm wondering if maybe her husband plays a larger role in the filming side of the business and that has effected the end result.


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## rub (Apr 30, 2012)

She had responded with pretty much, sorry you are unhappy, but we were rushed.  Either accept it as is, invoiced at 10 hours additional editing time - or we make further edits starting the clock again.  You choose.

Here is my response - feedback wouold be appreciated.

Hello XXX

While I appreciate the time you have put into the video to date, it cleary does not meet the expectations I, or my team, had for the project.  Even with no footage of me in the video (as our ideas of "not much" were vastly different) it still misses on the overall experience and feeling of the shoot. The intention of the video was to show us working as a team, and showing the overall feeling from the session. We all agree it is more of a "model shoot" type of feeling, where you could have added in any hair stylist, makeup artist, or photographer with the same result. 

A part of what has made my business successful is the dynamic we create as a team. It's the laugher, fun, joking around that makes people feel comfortable enough to actually let go and release that innner sexy side.  Being in a comfortable environment, with the team, makes all the difference.

For me, the biggest let down was that no coaching was portrayed.  I dont feel that me moving sheets or fixing hair is coaching - coaching is telling the women just how great they look, and then having them give you that smile like they actually belive what I am saying, because, THEY DO. I realize that there was a lot of other "noise" for you to deal with, but I feel that that was a part of your job to capture it in an effective way, seeing as we had already discussed just how important it was.

I also have to readdress the length of the video. You initally had stated that you didnt want to cut the song, and that you were adding as much footage as possible so that you didnt have to.  And then you had stated that naturally the video would be max length and for me to cut it down. And then you commented about cutting down the video from the client requests as being an issue.  I guess those comments contradict each other in my opinion.   

I know that you had said that much of our editing time was spent catering to the clients requests, and that is true, and so important.  There is no way I would go live with a video where the girls weren't comfortable.  This business is about pleasing the clients and they are my number one concern. That is why I was unable to even show the video on my opening (except to a select number of people) because I had not been given the final approval.  

I belive that to now pay more to fix mistakes or find footage we had requested before filming ever started, is not reasonable.  Unfortunately, I feel like you missed the mark, and now I am expected to pay for those mistakes. What we are getting, is not what we had discussed. I am not coaching the clients, the team is not shown much, it doesnt give the feeling of the day, and its longer than requested. At this point, we don't see how we can make the video meet the criteria we had discussed, as is it doesnt reflect my business, my team or the feeling of the sessions we book. 

While at this time I feel like a refund is in order as the video does not meet the needs we discussed, I do value the time you have put into it, as well as the time you took to travel here.  I would suggest that you retain the deposit I gave you, and we cut our losses.  As a team, we just do not feel this video can be of any value or use to us, so we would like to decline acceptance.

Kristal, Missy & Brandy


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

Sounds good to me.  Did the contract outline what would happen should the conditions of the contract not be met?  (Does the contract make it clear who is in breach of it in your specific situation?)

Unless there are clauses in the contract that contradict your reply to her, I think it is reasonable (might even go as far as to say generous).


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## rub (Apr 30, 2012)

No, it was more of an agreement for services - rates, requests, expectations etc.  nothing about unsatisfactory results etc.


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## raider (Apr 30, 2012)

is this a beginner videographer??  the single time i had an unhappy customer (an amateur videographer), i made the fixes they requested, did one more tweak and that was my limit.  they should rework it to your satisfaction.  find someone who charges by the project not hour.


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## mirrorrim (Apr 30, 2012)

Yep, suspicions confirmed. She doesnt care. I think you are being way too nice in tone, and I would keep it simpler and cut it down to these 3 paragraphs:



> While I appreciate the time you have put into the video to date, it clearly does not meet the expectations I, or my team, had for the project. It misses on the overall experience and feeling of the shoot. The intention of the video was to show us working as a team, and showing the overall feeling from the session. You could have added in any hair stylist, makeup artist, or photographer with the same result.
> 
> I believe that to now pay more to fix mistakes or find footage we had requested before filming ever started, is not reasonable. Unfortunately, I feel like you missed the mark, and now I am expected to pay for those mistakes. What we are getting, is not what we had discussed. I am not coaching the clients, the team is not shown much, it doesnt give the feeling of the day, and its longer than requested. At this point, we don't see how we can make the video meet the criteria we had discussed.
> 
> ...



It's more to the point. With her poor communication and "I dont care" attitude, it's unnecessary to explain in detail what you dont like (it seems like you've already told her this several times). Also, it's easier to digest without a wall of text to read. Personally, I would make it sound more matter-of-fact and remove the "I feel," and "I believe," types of phrases in your sentences. Using those words makes it easy for her to disagree with your position because it's open to interpretation and generally weakens your statement. "You missed the mark," sounds much stronger than "I feel like you missed the mark."


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## tirediron (Apr 30, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Sounds good to me.  Did the contract outline what would happen should the conditions of the contract not be met?  (Does the contract make it clear who is in breach of it in your specific situation?)
> 
> Unless there are clauses in the contract that contradict your reply to her, I think it is reasonable (might even go as far as to say generous).


Agreed.


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## rub (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks all - we will see what she responds with.


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## mirrorrim (May 3, 2012)

No response yet? I'm dying to know the outcome! Hope it works in your favor.


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## DiskoJoe (May 3, 2012)

Honestly I think that making a video to sell your service was not the best method for advertising here. Ask yourself, Could you explain what you do for a client in 90 seconds?


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## rub (May 3, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> Honestly I think that making a video to sell your service was not the best method for advertising here. Ask yourself, Could you explain what you do for a client in 90 seconds?



Yes, I 100% can.  My target market (which you are not a part of) completely values the opportunity to "see" what a shoot is all about.  Boudoir is not just taking pictures of pretty women in skimpy lingerie, at least not for me.  Its a process. And in 90 seconds its is completey viable to show how someone can be transformed from a regular working mom (or any client), to a sexy, beautiful, confident woman.  

It's not my only form of marketing, its a supplement to everythign else I have.  And for out of town clients (which is quickly becoming my largest market) it also will allow them a chance to get to know our team and how we work, before they come into the studio.

As far as a resolution to the situation, we have both walked away from this project, as our visions were not the same, and the  critical footage missed made it impossible to move forward without a reshoot.

K


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## 12sndsgood (May 3, 2012)

Sucks to hear it didn't work out but it sounds like you have been able to put the issue to rest.


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## CMfromIL (May 4, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> Honestly I think that making a video to sell your service was not the best method for advertising here. Ask yourself, Could you explain what you do for a client in 90 seconds?



Have you ever sat still, and watched a clock for 90 seconds?  It's a LOOOOONNNNGGGG time.  Considering the average TV ad is 30 seconds, it's like watching 3 regular TV commericals in a row.

If you CAN'T describe your business in 90 seconds, you need to figure out a way to be more concise and too the point.  Honestly.  Maybe if a client asks for some obscure discussion on why/how you decide on f/stops or why method you decide to use ISO...there is no reason not to be able to describe your business in under 90 seconds.


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## CCericola (May 4, 2012)

WPPI was flooded with self promotion video venders. It is a new and more dinamic way to sell yourself without buying airtime like a traditional commercial. Though with the high quality of some of the videos I would actually look into buying airtime. There are some big changes about to happen with my business so I'm holding back on making a video. It could be a great spring board for the reorganization.


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## globalukk (May 4, 2012)

From what you've described she probably already knows it isn't a good job, which is why she had to spend so much longer on it. If I were you I would just be honest and say you aren't happy and come to some agreement, i.e she keeps the deposit and maybe gets a discount if she books with you, but don't pay her anymore money.


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