# exposure comp on a cloudy day for wildlife.



## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

i think this is a beginner type question so i am gonna post this here..     

i have not done much wild life shooting on cloudy days till recently..    when shooting stuff up in trees or up in the sky i constantly seem to get a under exposed subject,  or some times over exposed.

i set my camera up like this..  1/1000, F/8, auto ISO   that is for flying birds and gives me sharp images on my lens,  i use auto ISO because panning the camera to the left or right wen a bird is flying could really change the exposure so auto ISO keep the exposure consistent.    the way my camera is set up if i need to adjust the exposure i need to adjust the exposure compensation.

on a nice well lit day exposure comp works well for me. but i dont really get exactly how to use it it  on a cloudy day shooting things with the white sky in the background., i usually get underexposed photos of the subject with a super bright blow out white sky,  some time the whole photo seems over exposed when i crank up the exposure comp to a + setting.  so this is where it confuses me.

my camera is usually on matirx metering,  maybe switching to spot metering would be better for this type of shooting on a cloudy day,  i just now though of that  so my main questions are.   

1.  what metering mode on my Nikon is going to be best for shooting birds on cloudy days.

2. what to do with exposure compensation for things flying against the bright white cloudy sky  or in a tree against the white cloudy sky, 

usually when i see a bird i need to get a quick photo before it flys away so its not like i really have much time to shoot,  see how the photo turned out,  change the exposure comp  and try again because by that time its usually gone.

.


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## goodguy (Oct 18, 2015)

Well outside the lighting situation can change dramatically from one scenario to another, I use aperture priority f4-f6.3, auto ISO and mostly worry about adequate shutter speed to capture wildlife with no motion blur.
To compensate for the crazy lighting differences between one scenario to another I simply use exposure compensation.
I already know most of the time more or less how much exposure compensation I need out of experience but I always check the first shot just to be sure.
I found this system to be best for me.


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## SCraig (Oct 18, 2015)

The question you should really be asking is How Does My Camera Metering System Work?


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

Exposure is as perfect a thing as how you like your steak cooked.  Some like rare while others like well done. 

There is no "right" setting for exposure. 

Learn how to use your camera's histogram as a guide to exposure.  If you are unfamiliar with a histogram and the data it provides, place "how to read a histogram" into a search engine and do some studying.  Then be prepared to use more data to make better shots. 

Your most basic editing software - and certainly the better editors - will allow adjustments to exposure and, if you are shooting in RAW, white balance.  Decent software can pull quite  bit of detail from the shadows along with expanding dynamic range but not much can be done to recover blown out highlights.  While exposing to the right is a good idea for capturing the greatest amount of image information,  you must settle on a safe buffer zone for just how far to push your exposure.  



Your question is somewhat answered in your post, you have tremendously broad variations in your shooting conditions from shot to shot.  That boils down to continuously variable settings - within reason - for each shot. 

The difference in metering between a bird sitting in a tree against a background of branches and leaves will be very different than the settings for a bird sitting on a branch and seen against the background of a bright sky.  No one setting for metering will be correct for both.     

Spot metering works well in either case but it also depends on your ability to use your camera's metering systems well.   Blowing out the sky is generally  acceptable if you are looking for a silhouette of a subject.  More often than not, your flash unit will not give you the reach required to add fill to the subject in wildlife photography.  Very good editing skills can make a so so image more than what's in the camera. 

Certainly, avoiding midday glare will be beneficial.  Birds are less active during the middle of the day which gives you some opportunities to catch them at rest.  However, birds are seen in more flattering light and in light which poses fewer challenges when you are shooting during those golden hours of the day when the sun sits lower in the sky.  Slightly overcast days are a benefit but not an answer.



I would tell you the best thing to do is a series of actions. 

First, do your home work by studying the websites of those nature photographers you find interesting.   Many provide advice to students of nature photography regarding their own personal camera settings.

Second, learn your camera very well to the point you can quickly change settings on the fly. 

Many cameras have custom shooting modes which you can build to suit specific situations.  Most have "My Menu" options which place often used controls at the top of a menu list.  Some cameras have single function switches which can be set to your preference to make on the fly adjustments to your camera. 

If you know the generic settings you will use for your photography, then you can build one or two custom settings which will get you in the ballpark for the specific shot with only the flick of a switch.  From there you can adjust as each specific shot requires.  Learn your camera and what it can and cannot do.  Know how to reach a setting with your eyes closed - or, at least, on the subject and not on the back of the camera.

Third, shoot in RAW capture to provide the largest data file for editing purposes. 

If your camera has exposure bracketing functions, use them when they may provide a bit more leeway to a good shot.    

Finally, obtain and learn the ins and outs of a good editing program.  These will often be the line of last resort to achieving a final result which satisfies the greatest number of shots.


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

i am not new to photography but shooting wild life on a dreary day is new to me.     i get how the light meter works but its not often correct on cloudy days. 

basically the only adjustments i am worried about would the metering and exposure comp,    because flying birds you need 1/1000 or faster.  i need to shoot at F/8 if i want the sharpest images out of the lens i am using,   ISO set to auto is how i like it and so do most wild life photographers that i have talked do,   when any of them tell me how they generally set up their camera its always about the same as i set mine as far as those 3 things go.

i shoot raw and i can fix my photos up in light room,  but often the underexposed image get way to grainy when i have to slide the shadow slider all the way over to get good detail in the bird.   i am pretty sure i will get better results when editing a photo that had a descent exposure compared to one that was underexposed and you cant see any detail in the animals..

this photo posted was all blown out with the tree and birds under exposed to where they almost looked like shadows, light room did a good job of fixing it up but it  probably could have been a better photo if i had a proper exposure in the first place.   still turned out descent but i am pretty sure it could have been better  if i would have had the exposure comp set differently.   i am really just trying to figure out the basics of using exposure comp on a cloudy day.   i know its something i probably just need to play with.   its just kind of frustrating when you get a good image,  shoot something else and its not good at all.


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## dxqcanada (Oct 18, 2015)

If you have time, spot meter on the tree then lock exposure ... or flip to manual exposure.
The very light background will probably be washed out but you cannot help that if your subject vs background exposure is very wide ... you have to lose one to get the other.
You can also use manual exposure and pre-set it to some general exposure level if you are moving views like a mad man (when trying to follow birds).

I will have to say that having an EVF is handy as it does present you with a very close live view of the exposure. I am finding it very handy in situations like you describe.


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> i am not new to photography but shooting wild life on a dreary day is new to me.     i get how the light meter works but its not often correct on cloudy days.
> 
> basically the only adjustments i am worried about would the metering and exposure comp,    because flying birds you need 1/1000 or faster.  i need to shoot at F/8 if i want the sharpest images out of the lens i am using,   ISO set to auto is how i like it and so do most wild life photographers that i have talked do,   when any of them tell me how they generally set up their camera its always about the same as i set mine as far as those 3 things go.
> 
> ...





I guess I'm not really understanding your problem.  The shot you provided looks as if it were taken on a cloudy, dreary day.  You say the shot was taken on a cloudy, dreary day.  Capturing what is in front of the photographer is pretty much what a camera is meant to do.

Yes, you can manipulate the image with software but, what exactly are you after?  Do you want an image that has a close relationship to what you saw in reality?  Or, do you want an image that looks like something you created in your computer without regard to reality?

What you are dealing with is extreme dynamic range.  Maybe not as extreme as a clear, sunny day but still more DR than your camera can accommodate.  That is a very simple and very conventional limitation to a digital camera.  The camera cannot process what your brain perceives.

But, of course, you already know that.

You can use HDR techniques either in your camera or in your software.  The former is less likely to be useful when shooting living creatures which do not care they are getting photographed.  The latter is more successful but also more work. 



If you are using matrix metering for that type of shot, yes, you are going to get an underexposed image.  That would be consistent with how matrix or center weighted metering would see the scene.  Spot metering would give you a different reading and subsequently a different setting but still might not be your best compromise.

_"i get how the light meter works but its not often correct on cloudy days."_

This strikes me as saying, "I don't know how the light meter works."

First, there is no "correct" metering for a "correct" exposure.  There is only what is going to work for the scene you see in front of you and the scene you see in your head.    Exposure is fungible.

It's rather obvious why the shot you posted was "all blown out with the tree and birds under exposed to where they almost looked like shadows".  What is not obvious is whether or not you could have actually obtained a better exposure before you lost the opportunity.

That's a large part of the game you are committing to when you are doing wildlife photography.  You are, in effect, hunting with your camera.  Ask any hunter how many shots they've missed and you'll probably be surprised at their response.



I think what you are really asking is, how do I up my keeper rate?

Because, at times, you simply have to accept that some shots aren't going to be worth keeping.   That's the game.

If you are discussing this with other nature photographers and you're all coming up with the same basic answers, then I would suggest you begin asking the other shooters what their keeper rate is?

If they say over 90%, I'd guess they aren't telling the truth or they are so selective they aren't taking many shots.

If they say less than 40%, they probably aren't worth much as advice givers.

If they say closer to 60% than 70%, then discuss their settings and their technique more in depth.

Also discuss their processing techniques.  And, if appropriate, ask to see some of their results.  It's fairly easy to talk about results.




If you're images are turning out "too grainy", you can do one of two things.  Set your auto ISO limit to a lower maximum and realize some shots just aren't going to work.  Or obtain some good noise reduction software for post processing.

Alternately, you can spend a good deal of money on a camera and lens combination with better light sensitivity and faster autofuocus; STOKES BIRDING BLOG: Canon SX 50 HS for Bird Photography: I love this camera!

"SX50 beats all my DSLRs"



I assume you are saying your shots are too grainy when viewed on your computer monitor.  How much larger is that image than what you are printing?  Personally, I probably wouldn't print the image you posted.  Surely, you must have better results to print.

If you're judging your images only by what you see on your monitor, then you are probably too critical of what you see.  Your printer - most printers - will not produce the resolution you see on your monitor.  If you print, then you must take into account the size of your print and the viewing distance away from the print.  If you are not printing, then reduce your image to an appropriate scale for an imagined print size.

How do your shots look at that size?


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

here is a example of the problem i am having.    the light meter on the camera that is shown in my view finder with exposure comp at 0  tells me the photo is properly exposed..  and than i am getting photos like this..



 


i can move the shadow slider in light room and make it look like this...    



 

using around plus 2 on my exposure comp got me this which was probably slightly too much but...  i am just trying to figure out the guide lines for using the expousre comp to not have to guess about where it needs to be as much for this type of lightning,   but i figure its probably going to be one of those things where you have to shoot a few shots in that spot and adjust it till you get what you are looking for.    but maybe just maybe there is some sort of trick to getting it right the fist time with out needing to take a few shots..

on a more sunny day when the light meter in the view finder tells me i have the correct exposure i usually do, on cloudy days its a different story..


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## dxqcanada (Oct 18, 2015)

Take a meter reading on a large clump of green leaves below the birds ... use that exposure.
If you take a reading of the bare branches with the sky, you can compare and figure out what the comp is.


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## snowbear (Oct 18, 2015)

^This.
You used spot metering so the meter is only using the center of the lens.  If you metered on the leaves or the center of the bird you'd have gotten a little closer.  If you are hitting the sky with the meter, you're going to get reading for the sky, not the birds.


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

i actually have the center focus point of the lens right on the bird when i am shooting it and the light meter is saying correct exposure.

there are not always leaves in every shot.. 

now these guys came out a bit over exposed and i cant quite get anything i really like in lightroom..  i get them to where i think not bad but not great either.


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## dxqcanada (Oct 18, 2015)

Those scenes are probably due to the lack of contrast between the birds and the background ... plus the direction of the light source.


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

i just change the temp to cool them down , the water is now a more clear looking instead of having a brownish tint and they seem to be a bit better now.   so i think that helped with that issue.


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## jaomul (Oct 18, 2015)

You can get into reasons why etc, but generally I find I'm better adding +0.7 to +1 exp compensation when using the d7200 on a cloudy day. I'm normally on matrix metering


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

yeah, its probably something i am just gonna have to keep playing with..


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## jaomul (Oct 18, 2015)

If you use auto wb also there is a second auto option. Wb doesn't effect exposure per se but the first normal auto renders cloudy a bit cold and makes it look drab and dull, the second one is better, or better still just adjust yourself to cloudy


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

There are far more technically savvy members than I but I think you are going about this the wrong way.  The camera is doing exactly as you have set it to do. 

Your problem is not going to be solved by using exposure compensation IMO.  No more than if you had placed a ND filter on your lens. 

Exposure comp will change the entire scene which will simply make the subject darker when you are trying to even out the DR difference between the subject and the background. 

Are you checking the histogram before you shoot?  It will tell you when your exposure is "best" for each scene. 

You camera is set to produce a silhouetted  subject.  You can meter the subject to achieve a more correct value for just that portion of the image but that will almost always blow out the sky.  Your problem, IMO, is not the exposure but the quality of light you are shooting in.  And in that situation, yes, you are going to have to learn just what the available light demands.

However, to have the subject properly exposed the subject is what you must meter.


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## jaomul (Oct 18, 2015)

^^^
No disrespect intended as you are likely right in what you say for most instances, however it is said the d7200 had a tendency to underexpose in cloudy conditions so adding exp compensation is a fix


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

i just recently got the D7200 so i am still learning the camera,  ill have to figure out how find the histogram..

most of the time my white balance looks great set to auto1  every now and again i get one that's a bit off.  

i took a brush in lightroom and did some painting the water on some of my pie billed grebe shots,  now the birds really stand out from the water, i even painted some nice vibrant blue looking water on some of them..

i am not sure how i wold have my camera set to give me a silhouette,  my camera is set to tell me when i have a proper exposure.   on a day with good lightning its usually dead on,   but on cloudy days its not.   i was reading some pro wildlife photographers guides to camera settings and they all mentioned using exposure compensation in these kinds of situations,        i have used exposure comp before during good lighting and that is simple to get the hang of.   but in these kinds of lightning conditions its a whole new ball game


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

jaomul said:


> ^^^
> No disrespect intended as you are likely right in what you say for most instances, however it is said the d7200 had a tendency to underexpose in cloudy conditions so adding exp compensation is a fix




If that's the case with the op's camera, what does exposure compensation change on this camera?  

The op has said his images turn out noisy.  Would the camera be ramping up the ISO value when exposure comp is increased?

That would somewhat defeat the purpose of the increase if noise was an issue.


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## jaomul (Oct 18, 2015)

When a photo is underexposed noise is always much more evident. By increasing exp to get a balance noise should be reduced


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

soufiej said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^
> ...


this is how exposure comp works...  since i use auto ISO  that will always change the ISO so the light meter bar reads dead center which should technically be a properly exposed image.     if your not getting a properly exposed image when it shows the bar shows center, exposure compensation will increase or decrease the amount of exposure you get when the bar reads 0    so if i increase the exposure comp to +1  it will increase the exposure by one stop. 

if i were not using the the auto iso i could just adjust the shutter speed, iso or aperture to increase or decrease the exposure,   but if i do that with auto ISO turned on the camera will just automatically adjust the ISO to make the light meter bar read center again and give me the exact same exposure .    the exposure comp kind of over rides that so i cant tell the camera if i need more or less exposure yet the light meter bar will still read 0 even though its giving me a stop more or less exposure. 

in full manual mode you would never need to use exposure comp.    but when all or any of these are set to a auto mode.  aperture, shutter speed or ISO the camera is always going to give you what it thinks is proper exposure unless you over ride that with exposure comp when the cameras light meter is wrong for the type of lightning you are shooting in..


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

jaomul said:


> When a photo is underexposed noise is always much more evident. By increasing exp to get a balance noise should be reduced




Well, yes, but only in the under exposed areas of the image, right?  The blown out sky will show less noise because it is being eaten up by the loss of fine detail and is being exposed as pure white.


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> this is how exposure comp works...  since i use auto ISO  that will always change the ISO so the light meter bar reads dead center which should technically be a properly exposed image.     *if your not getting a properly exposed image when it shows the bar shows center, exposure compensation will increase or decrease the amount of exposure you get when the bar reads 0    so if i increase the exposure comp to +1  it will increase the exposure by one stop.*


*

*
No problem there.  But the exposure compensation must come from one of the legs of the triangle.  Right?

If exposure will increase by one stop, what changes when you set auto ISO?

You maintain the same aperture, right?

And you maintain the same shutter speed, correct?

What am I missing?





> if i were not using the the auto iso i could just adjust the shutter speed, iso or aperture to increase or decrease the exposure,   but if i do that with auto ISO turned on the camera will just automatically adjust the ISO to make the light meter bar read center again and give me the exact same exposure .    *the exposure comp kind of over rides that so i cant tell the camera if i need more or less exposure yet the light meter bar will still read 0 even though its giving me a stop more or less exposure.*




So, you "can't" tell the camera you need more or less exposure?  If the camera doesn't change ISO with exposure compensation, then it must change some other value within the triangle.   It can split the difference between shutter and ISO but it must change one or more of the exposure triangle's values to achieve more or less exposure.   

If the exposure changes, at least one of the three legs of the triangle must change.  No?

So, my question still is, what changes when you adjust exposure compensation on your camera?



[Quote}_in full manual mode you would never need to use exposure comp.    but when all or any of these are set to a auto mode.  aperture, shutter speed or ISO _*the camera is always going to give you what it thinks is proper exposure unless you over ride that with exposure comp when the cameras light meter is wrong for the type of lightning you are shooting in..*[/QUOTE]


But the meter is not "wrong".  It is reading the scene as you have set the system.   By including the sky (background) in your metering, you have set the camera to capture a silhouette. 

Change the metering method and the "proper exposure" values will change but that doesn't make the previous reading wrong.  Only different because the metering method was different.


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## dannylightning (Oct 18, 2015)

I used spot metering so it should meter what the focus point is on I would think,    and since the ISO is the only thing set to change on my camera, when using the exposure comp it should  be changing the ISO.   I set up a max ISO, usually at 6400 so the ISO should never go above that.  

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk


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## soufiej (Oct 18, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> I used spot metering so it should meter what the focus point is on I would think,    and since the ISO is the only thing set to change on my camera, when using the exposure comp it should  be changing the ISO.   I set up a max ISO, usually at 6400 so the ISO should never go above that.
> 
> Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk




Obviously, I don't know your camera well enough to say.  I shoot Canon so Nikon remains a mystery to me.

How tightly does your spot metering refine the system?  On a camera such as the 7200, I would think not as tightly as the focus point.  I don't know but, doesn't the 7200 have something a bazillion focus points? 

As I understand the system, if you are reading from both the birds/limb and the sky, the meter will average out the difference just as if you were using a wider point.

I would say, for me at least, spot metering only on the birds in that shot would be rather tough.

What were you trying to spot meter?



So, the camera only alters ISO when changing exposure comp?

We know that for sure?

Again, I don't know your camera but, isn't 6400 a bit high if you're concerned about noise?


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## jaomul (Oct 19, 2015)

soufiej said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > When a photo is underexposed noise is always much more evident. By increasing exp to get a balance noise should be reduced
> ...



I am not talking about over exposing a shot here. I am not talking about blown out skies. The d7200 tends to underexpose in cloudy conditions. Adding approx 1 stop exp compensation goes a long way to remedy this. This does not blow out the sky, as without the exp comp the sky is generally underexposed.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

I have it set to single focus point.  And that point is directly on a birds head or if possible its eye when I am close enough,  I am sure it dies see more light from other things though.  

No 6400 does not add that much noise,  set any higher than that it starts to get too noisy for my taste.  

When looking at the photos info it still says it was f/8, 1/1000 and what ever ISO the camera decides to use so I do not know what else it could be changing except for the ISO when using exposure comp.  

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

This might answer your question about what happens when you use exposure compensation

I'm in full manual, the light bar read 0, I change it to + 1 with exposure comp and now the light bar tells me I'm a stop underexposed, so I have to change one of the settings myself to get the light bar to read 0 again.  So its not changing anything but the reading on the light meter.  Now with auto ISO turned on it should just crank up the ISO till the light bar reads 0 again after I change the  exposure comp.

If the ISO is maxed out at 6400 and the light bar shows that I am under exposed after changing the exposure comp than I would need to use a longer shutter speed or wider aperture to get the light bar to read 0  again.   

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk


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## Braineack (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> I'm in full manual, the light bar read 0, I change it to + 1 with exposure comp and now the light bar tells me I'm a stop underexposed, so I have to change one of the settings myself to get the light bar to read 0 again



yes. You only have three things you can adjust to change the exposure, and if you set lock them all down manually, what do you expect the camera to do?

If you're shooting in MANUAL mode, then using exp. comp. doesn't really make sense unless you are using auto-iso.

Otherwise just shoot a few stops underexposed and just recover the files in post.  you need a _lot _of light for 1/1000sec and f/8.


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## SCraig (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> ... so the light meter bar reads dead center which should technically be a properly exposed image...


Not necessarily.  That's why I posted the link to understanding how metering works.

The meter in the camera is going to calculate an exposure for the sampled area (which varies depending on the metering mode being used) that would be a proper exposure IF the area is neutral gray.  If the sampling area has a large area of solid color (i.e. sky, water, grass, pavement, etc.) the exposure will virtually always be wrong.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

Braineack said:


> using exp. comp. doesn't really make sense unless you are using auto-iso.





SCraig said:


> dannylightning said:
> 
> 
> > ...That's why I posted the link to understanding how metering works.
> ...




i said earlier there is no reason to use exposure comp in full manual mode,   but there was a question about what changes in the camera when you use exposure comp,    i though that might explain how it works.  i know the lens require allot of light but i am trying to work with it in lousy lightning anyways.  it seems to do alright for the most part i just got to figure out what is going to get me the best exposure with in bad lighting..

i never saw a link to the metering, when people embed the link in text i guess you call it, that always throws me off and i often don't notice it.,    ill go back and find the link,  thanks...  metering is something i have never really read up on..


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

the question about my camera and ISO 6400 being too high.   here is a photo that was taken at 6400 iso.   it has a bit of noise but i think its still acceptable,  now if you get a under exposed photo at ISO 6400 and fix it up that will cause some issues with noise.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 19, 2015)

Hi Danny,

I think you are expecting to understand several things without taking the time to read and fully understand how those things work.  There are no real shortcuts unless you want to continue to get frustrated by trial and error.

I posted in one of your other threads something about reading the doggone manual.  I honestly think if you slow down, take the time to read either the full manual or at least browse through the table of contents so that you can focus on the specific sections dealing with your issues; you would gain a better understanding.  I'm guessing that Nikon does at least equally as well in their manual as Canon does.

If you are not one of those people that has the patience to read the manual - take the time to practice using your camera on still subjects (leave the birds alone for a while).  Set a stuffed animal or beer can (whatever) up somewhere in your yard and practice shooting it.  I would suggest in manual mode, F8, 1/1000 and auto ISO as you seem to like.  Take a shot in each metering mode while checking the histogram after each time (read your manual to show you how to get to and read the histogram - IT'S IMPORTANT).  If the majority of information in your histogram is to the left of center, then use positive exposure compensation to push it towards the right (If your camera allows you to use exposure compensation while in manual).  That should increase the ISO only.  You may also decrease the shutter speed instead of using exposure compensation.  However, note that when you are shooting at a real bird, decreasing the shutter speed will negate some of the reason you chose that speed initially.

Make sure you place your teddy bear in a shaded area for one set of shots, and then in a backlit area for the next set of shots (again switching the metering mode each time).  Study each shot in each scenario on the camera lcd, and again when you load them into Lightroom.  Make sure LR has the overlay preview information with shutter speed, ISO and aperture showing.

I keep saying there are no shortcuts, but.........I truly believe reading the manual is actually a shortcut.

Oh - btw, my own little thought about exposure compensation is ---- whatever the predominant shade is in my scene, I move exposure towards it.  So if my Egret is surrounded mostly by dark water or dark background (trees, grass, bushes etc.) then I move my exposure compensation towards the negative.  If my Raven is against a bright sky (backlit) then I use positive exposure compensation.


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## Malavok (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> i just recently got the D7200 so i am still learning the camera,  ill have to figure out how find the histogram..



This is what I do with my 7200:

Go into playback mode to where you're viewing a single picture. Click up or down on the multi-selector. Now you have a little histogram that shows up in the preview immediately after taking the image. It's great for fast adjustments to exposure comp.

You can add additional information by going to the playback menu (first menu), then playback display options.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

JacaRanda said:


> Hi Danny,
> 
> I think you are expecting to understand several things without taking the time to read and fully understand how those things work.  There are no real shortcuts unless you want to continue to get frustrated by trial and error.
> 
> ...



Thank you,  I have read thew a manual,  more like skimmed thew it.  i am one of those people that never really read a manual, i just pick something up and learn to use it..   back when i got my first DSLR i read and read and read about it.   it was the first thing i ever got where i had to really set and learn how to use it.     i remember buying or getting a book by nikon that told you how to use everything.  and i remember reading this here on nikons website..   Nikon | Imaging Products | DSLR Camera Basics  .  this was a long time ago and there was a long period of time where i did not own a DSLR till i got one again 1.5 maybe 2 years ago.  i am going to read thew my manual more thorough and than i am going to start doing some more reading from that link aswell..   i though i knew my camera pretty well,  but you are all making me feel like a NOOB again!!!! 

i understand how to read a histogram..  i just refreshed my self on that one yesterday and i turned on the histogram in my camera yesterday,   reading the in camera histogram never ever crossed my mind before so i am glad that was mentioned to me,  i am gonna check that from now on.  i ask these questions because i am having trouble and hope someone will point me to some info that is informative and i can understand. so far i think i have got some helpful info out of this thread so far.


i have tried your metering test with my D5300 when i first got it, i do not remember reading much about metering till yesterday and i realize spot metering was probably the wrong thing to be using,  however i have done the metering test when shooting landscapes or a stationary object on a sunny day only,  i did not really notice any difference between the 3 metering modes,  the photos pretty much looked the same,  maybe i was doing the test with the wrong type of subject and i only tried one type of lightning condition...  

the other day had a lousy light when i went to shoot birds i had matrix metering set, the next time i went out on a lousy lit day i used spot metering.  both of those settings seemed to give me underexposed images so i played with the exposure comp both days, i got some good photos and some bad photos both days.  most of the time i look something like metering up and its a short article, only semi informative and tells you the very basics of the subject only or its just too technical for my brain to understand.  but short and to me it seems like i only get the very basic understanding out of it.   

as far as changing settings to get more light,  with the new lens i can shoot it wide open, f/6.2 i think it is at 600mm and the images still look sharp but they do look better at F/8 so i try to stay there if i can. for shutter speed  i really do not want to go less than 1/100 because when something moves i do get blur images at times,  even at 1/1000 some times a flying bird has some wing blur going on,  most of the time it does not but some times it does...

allot of the things i am shooting are not very close. so they do not take up the screen,  when i get something that is close to me i get a good exposure,  but a wood duck way out in the lake or a blue bird up in a tree is a different story on these types of days.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> allot of the things i am shooting are not very close. so they do not take up the screen, when i get something that is close to me i get a good exposure, but a wood duck way out in the lake or a blue bird up in a tree is a different story on these types of days.



This is always going to be the case and why you need to be able to adjust.  Sometimes it won't be worth it.  If your subject it too small in the scene, then the scene is probably more a landscape shot.


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2015)

Spot metering is good for slow, deliberate,careful,methodical work, but it is a very poor choice in many situations, especially fluid situations...spot metering is extremely dependent upon the exact object being measured, and it can lead to incredibly bad exposures at times. Nikon's center-weighted metering is a long-time staple that many Nikon users love; you can adjust the diameter of the center circle. Nikjon center-weighted average metering has traditionally been 60% of the meter reading based on the scribed, permanent 12mm circle on the viewfinder screen, then the remaining area of the entire image are accounting for a 40% bias. Center-weighted Average metering can be made *more central* by using the Custom Function menu; the choices on my cameras are 6mm, 8mm,10mm,13mm, and Center-weighted Average.

Matrix metering does a lot of analysis of distance, color of objects, focusing point in use,and overall scene component reflectance and color values. It is basically "automated light metering"; in most situations, the matrix reading will be pretty good, but not all scenes will be rendered perfectly.

I think that using Matrix metering in Manual mode is not a wise decision, but in Aperture priority auto, I will often use matrix.

As JacaRanda mentioned, on dark scenes, dialing in some MINUS Exposure Compensation (EC) makes a lot of sense, and in  the case of snow or fog, I almost always dial in + 1.3 to +1.5 EC.

Basically, for backlighted birds on skimpy trees, you are likely going to want an EC "offset" into the Plus range; for shooting a portrait of a person standing in front of deeply shaded, green hedges 50 feet behind them with the dark hedges making up a lot of the total frame area, dialing in a Minus 1.3 to Minus 1.7 EC is typical on "wide-angle" shots.

When the lens focal length becomes very long, then the metering can become almost a semi-spot just by virtue of how little the meter actually "sees".

The more-selective the metering area is, the more that an exact aim and a very,very specific target becomes a necessity; for fast-changing, fluid scenes, where the "target" might move across the frame, and the frame has wildly different exposure values, the more likely it is that spot metering will lead to an utter cluster****. When the scene is very fluid, then it becomes helpful to sort of "put the governor on the meter" and go to a center-weighted or a matrix method, one that is not so prone to 10-EV differences with a 1-foot mis-aiming of the metering circle.

Again: the 12mm scribed circle in every Nikon factory screen delineates the center-weighted metering's main area! Learn to swing the meter around and watch the diodes move up or down as the meter's circle is moved around the scene. years ago, I spent a lot of time measuring and shooting a single, 60-watt lightbulb on an extension light, against a plain, white wall...it's very instructive toward helping you learn to mentally map out the Nikon center-weighted average metering's "computer brain" way of thinking.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

well i  just went out and played with the camera,    i shot tree branches in different types of lightning in all 3 metering modes to see how the exposure and detail in the tree bark would look. 

spot metering was very inconsistent and often had blow out highlights,     between matrix and center weighted were both darker so i put the exposure comp to +1 and i was getting photos that were exposed about right for the lighting i was shooting in , i noticed very little difference between those 2 metering settings.    i know some wild life photographers like center weighted,   i guess ill stick to that one for a while and see how it works out.

i decided to try out some hither ISO so i set it to 16000 and found a squirrell in the dark shade,  the camera needed to use all 16000 iso for the photo,  its a bit noisy in the background but the subject looks pretty good considering.   i shot him in all different metering modes too,  than he dropped his nut and ran out of the tree to find it.


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2015)

Yeah, spot metering can easily provide wildly inconsistent exposures in fluid situations--because basically ALL of the meter's influence is concentrated in one, small, small area of the overall frame! Center-weighted and Matrix metering with modern Nikon d-slr cameras works very well most of the time. Your squirrel shot actually looks pretty good! It is simply amazing how well the new Nikons can do at very high ISO settings.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

I appreciate all the information..  its been helpful..  its quite impressive how these new nikons do with high ISO,   my friends D90 cant handle high ISO at all,  my old D60 i think it was did not either.    cameras have come a long way..

there is one thing i have read about and just cant seem to grasp when it comes to auto ISO,  the minimum shutter speed setting in the ISO sensitivity menu..    the default is set to auto so that is where i have left it.   a few people have tried to explain that to me before but i just cant seem to get it.   can anyone give me a explanation for a dummy on that setting ??


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## soufiej (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> well i  just went out and played with the camera,    i shot tree branches in different types of lightning in all 3 metering modes to see how the exposure and detail in the tree bark would look.
> 
> spot metering was very inconsistent and often had blow out highlights,     between matrix and center weighted were both darker so i put the exposure comp to +1 and i was getting photos that were exposed about right for the lighting i was shooting in , i noticed very little difference between those 2 metering settings.    i know some wild life photographers like center weighted,   i guess ill stick to that one for a while and see how it works out.
> 
> i decided to try out some hither ISO so i set it to 16000 and found a squirrell in the dark shade,  the camera needed to use all 16000 iso for the photo,  its a bit noisy in the background but the subject looks pretty good considering.   i shot him in all different metering modes too,  than he dropped his nut and ran out of the tree to find it.View attachment 110122




I can't help with specifics of the Nikon.  

Canon here all the way, you know.

However, I mentioned awhile back you might want to employ HDR techniques in either the camera or the processing.  HDR in camera is likely to fail when shooting moving or potentially moving subjects - and, honestly, if I see another photo of another dead bird ... 

Have you given any consideration to trying HDR in your processing to allow for more DR in your final product and a lot more leeway in your shooting technique?

Do keep that histogram in your LCD or viewfinder.  It can be a lifesaver.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 19, 2015)

Some would rather blow the highlights and get the subject exposed close to right and live with it.  I would have done the test with something other than tree branches but oh well.  At some point after you play, practice, shoot enough you will begin to figure out what works best for you in different conditions.  Knowing what metering mode works best in each situation is part of it.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

Dead bird ????    I think HDR is cool but I am not really looking to do HDR with wildlife.  

I did testing with more than just branches,  the moon was out,   weather vain on someone's roof,  tree leaves,  and a few other random things in the back yard.   It was what was easily available at the moment.    I plan to do more metering testing in the future. 

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:
			
		

> there is one thing i have read about and just cant seem to grasp when it comes to auto ISO,  the minimum shutter speed setting in the ISO sensitivity menu..    the default is set to auto so that is where i have left it.   a few people have tried to explain that to me before but i just cant seem to get it.   can anyone give me a explanation for a dummy on that setting ??



Not familiar with your camera specifically, but my guess is that Auto regulation reads the CPU information from the lens to establish some kind of something like a "twice the focal length" minimum speed with short focal length lenses, and perhaps a 2.5x to 3.0x the focal length minimum speed with longer focal lengths. For example, with a 15-30mm lens, hand-holding is possible at 1/15 second, quite easily, and due to low image magnification of the subjects, at a speed like 1/30, any blurring that there is will be relatively minimally visible on most subjects. However, with longer focal lengths, like say 200mm to 300mm, there is higher magnification of most subjects, and so blurring due to camera shake AND blurring due to subject motion blur are both much,much more of a real possibility.

Manual, user-set minimum speed allows YOU some important input; if you are shooting say, almost static, grazing elk with a 400mm lens set to f/6.3, there's not a lot of need for ultra-short shutter speeds to prevent motion blur, so the need for a really short speed, like say 1/1000 to 1/1250 second, is simply NOT a factor, and by setting the minimum speed slower, like say to 1/400 second, you will keep the ISO value significantly LOWER.

If OTOH, you are shooting FAST action, you might want to set a floor below which the camera will not drop, and thus cause too much blurring to occur, say the slowest possible speed MUST NEVER be allowed to go below say 1/640 second, even if the lens in use is short, because  for example, say you plan to crop deeply images shot with a 50mm lens; the lens's own EXIF reporting might lead the automatic setting to think that, okay, 50mm lens, 2x to 3x the focal length will be fine! ANd it might be...but then again..it might not be, so you, the user, can manually determine what the slowest possible speed should ever be allowed to be.


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## dannylightning (Oct 19, 2015)

well i still find this hard to understand. it just sounds complicated when people explain it..

  the only time i use auto ISO is when shooting with the 150-600mm lens and since flying birds often come into play here i guess i am trying to figure out what setting would be optimal for that..   30s  all the way up to 1/4000s or are my options

generally 1/1000 or 1/1250 are what i use for the shutter speed  i usually do not go higher than that since i am shooting at F/8 most of the time with that lens. 

any other lens i shoot in full manual.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 19, 2015)

dannylightning said:


> well i still find this hard to understand. it just sounds complicated when people explain it..
> 
> the only time i use auto ISO is when shooting with the 150-600mm lens and since flying birds often come into play here i guess i am trying to figure out what setting would be optimal for that..   30s  all the way up to 1/4000s or are my options
> 
> ...



Some of this you will have to figure out on your own because it should be slightly different for each kind of bird and depending on how much motion you want to stop.  1/4000 is more than enough for any bird I can think of.   Actually 1/2500 is.


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## soufiej (Oct 19, 2015)

As always, people do things to suit their own tastes.  However, if you are after birds in flight, shutter priority is where you should live.  Simply place "photographing birds in flight" into a search engine.

Resting birds with little movement is probably best done in aperture priority.  

Like a wedding photographer, wildlife, and most especially bird specialist, photographers need to develop the skill of reading the scene.  Anticipating the event is going to up your keeper rate as much as anything else you can do.  This is really a matter of practice and discussing things other more seasoned photographers look for.  You can't control what the birds will do but you can learn when they are likely to do "this" and not "that".  Anticipate them doing "this" and you're more likely to get that shot that sets itself apart from the rest.  

And I know you've just purchased your new Nikon but I see more and more bird photographers moving to a secondary camera such as a superzoom bridge.  

If you are simply trying your hand at bird photography with your new Nikon, then stick with it.  If you are serious about birding, you might consider having a somewhat simpler camera - and the superzooms will give you more apparent reach while not sacrificing pixel count in cropping - that is virtually always at the ready for those quick shots that develop suddenly.  

Check out the two links I provided earlier for more ideas and more information on using such a camera for birding.  They are not a substitute for a great DSLR, just an addition that serves a useful purpose.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 19, 2015)

I would not suggest shutter priority in most cases because you are already trying to use a lens that is closer to it's sharpest at the long end at F8.  Shutter priority will have your aperture bouncing all over the place.  That is why you want to stick with manual so you can set shutter and aperture.  Let your great new camera use ISO to compensate.  If it's a slow bird, in manual decrease your shutter, if it's a hummingbird, increase your SS.  Don't forget about hand holding (steadily) a heavy lens at 600mm.  Not the easiest thing to do even with VR.  At that focal length, many choose even faster SS than the often minimum of 1/focal length.  That kind of magnification requires it (for many of us) without a tripod.


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