# Would you give up your camera for your safety?



## tecboy (May 16, 2017)

I was photographing at a public place.  There was a man approached and yelled at me.  He accused me that I took his pictures.  I tried to tell him that I didn't.  There were no pictures of him in my camera.  Then he threatened me with his profanity,"Give me your camera!!!  M**F**!!"  He kept repeating himself over and over.  He swing his fist at my face a couple of times.  He missed as I moved back trying to defend myself and yelled at him, "Hey!"  He rode his bicycle and left.  I was so scared, and I contacted the police.


----------



## snowbear (May 16, 2017)

Glad you weren't injured.

One more reason to use a sturdy tripod - they make pretty good melee weapons,


----------



## tecboy (May 16, 2017)

I could have hit him with my camera.


----------



## zombiesniper (May 16, 2017)

I don't condone that everyone react as I would since I'd likely be going to jail. I would recommend that you back away while dialing 911 (or applicable number for your region).
Having said that I carry a multitool with a sharp blade that he would have met with the first fist that came near me.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 16, 2017)

I had something similar happen not long ago. I simply subdued the jerk and he promptly realized he misjudged me. I never raised my voice, I was polite but firm. I talked to him and smiled, all the while using a balanced stance. I was shooting in between him and a building wall. The guy I shot was smoking a cigarette. Anyway, he got squirrelly, threw a haymaker that I blocked, locked his arm, and down kicked his knee and bringing him to his while begging to let go. 

The point I told you all that is you have to be skilled and prepared. If your not skilled in defending yourself, then you need to be super prepared and be able to run fast. Try to blend in, smile a lot.


----------



## tirediron (May 16, 2017)

Geezzz... I've had it easy!    The worst I can claim is having a cup of coffee (X-Large) thrown over me and my camera a couple of years ago while covering a Wounded Warriors event.  Some guy in the back of the room seemed to think I was targeting him (In truth I hadn't even noticed him); he ordered an X-Large coffee with a ton of cream and sugar, walked right up to me (I was by the door), threw/poured it on me and kept walking.  The staff were horrified...  If it had been a different time and place I would have had "words" with him, but on that occasion I simply ignored it (and smelled like vanilla/hazel-nut for the rest of the day).


----------



## tecboy (May 16, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> Try to blend in, smile a lot.



I have been to a lot of events photographing guests and environment.  I always smile and making the guests feel comfortable.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 16, 2017)

tecboy said:


> jcdeboever said:
> 
> 
> > Try to blend in, smile a lot.
> ...


Well, you never know, all sorts of people out there. Most are good.


----------



## snowbear (May 16, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I could have hit him with my camera.


A tripod is more durable and a heavy ball head can inflict a lot of damage.


----------



## zombiesniper (May 16, 2017)

tirediron said:


> I simply ignored it (and smelled like vanilla/hazel-nut for the rest of the day).



Not a statement you hear every day. lol


----------



## Derrel (May 16, 2017)

I have had that same thing happen twice, once in 1986 or '87, in Eugene, OR, and later in 2007 in Portland, Oregon. One was a homeless person, the second was a street punk known to cause trouble in the east-side  Hawthorne district. It's unnerving, for sure. I know of another TPF member who was similarly accosted in Portland, on the west side of the city.


----------



## nerwin (May 17, 2017)

Wow, that's awful. Glad you weren't hurt.

Yes, its true...most people are generally good but man it sure seems that's getting less true everyday. People are so concerned with people taking pictures these days its crazy.

The other day I was taking pictures of planes from a public area and man I felt like I was doing something wrong. Heck beforehand, I even contacted the airport and asked if it was okay if I could take pictures of planes at this airport because it was a big airport and they replied saying they didn't care haha (I ended up coming across a bald eagle! But he didn't get close enough ).

I really hate confrontation so its hard for me to take my camera with me even in public areas because I'm afraid I'll be targeted and get accused of terrorism or some crap like that, just like in a freaking mall one time. I mean damn, I was taking a picture of unique stairway with my phone to share on Facebook and I got security following me around and got kicked out whereas other people were taking pictures and they didn't care.

Why are people so afraid of people taking pictures? I don't want to end up being murdered for taking pictures, although at least I'll die doing what I love!


----------



## 480sparky (May 17, 2017)

If giving up a piece of gear will de-escalate a potential harmful situation, then damned straight I'd do so.

Problem is, these nutcases that attack photographers aren't playing with a full deck.  Since there's no guarantee compliance with their (illegal) demands that doing so will end the confrontation, I carry more to shoot with than just a camera............ if you get my drift.




















Now before anyone says I'm a gun-nut by defending my gear with a firearm, let me set you straight:  *I am not. * 

When someone gets aggressive towards me, they are threatening ME.  They are not threatening my gear.  They don't yell, "Hey, if you don't erase those photos, I'm gonna scratch or lens!!!" or "I'm gonna bend up the legs of that tripod!!!"  


If their intent is to harm ME (NOT my gear), then I will do what I can do defend MYSELF (NOT my gear).  My GEAR can easily be replaced..... My HEALTH, maybe / maybe not.  It is MY PERSON I am defending.  At that point, gear is not relevant.

I do not want this thread to degrade into a gun debate.  I am simply stating facts.


----------



## pendennis (May 17, 2017)

Situational awareness is the first tool.  Second, retreat is the next.  Avoid confrontation.  However, be prepared to defend yourself if attacked.  As others have mentioned, it's you, not your equipment, unless the miscreant is bent on robbery.

Knives/box cutters are not good defensive weapons.  A can of pepper spray is a good basic tool.  If someone gets inside 21 feet, they've invaded your comfort zone, and they can be on top of you long before you can draw a weapon.  Never try wielding a tripod as a defensive weapon; maybe a monopod, but unless you've practiced with this, don't rely on it.

I always carry a concealed pistol under my vest, but I will retreat rather than confront.

Here's an anecdote:  A number of years ago (1978), I took a self-defense course at the local police shooting range.  One of the scenarios dealt with the students being "armed" with a dummy pistol and holstered.  A stranger was 7 yards from us, and we didn't know his intent.  He turned, drew a rubber knife as he charged us, and no one got away without serious "wounds".  Upshot?  Unless your weapon is drawn, and at the ready, you can't keep an assailant away from you.


----------



## Dashur (May 17, 2017)

pendennis said:


> Situational awareness is the first tool.  Second, retreat is the next.  Avoid confrontation.  However, be prepared to defend yourself if attacked.
> 
> I always carry a concealed pistol under my vest, but I will retreat rather than confront.



When stateside I also carry...but what I love about your post is - unlike some folks, you seem to have NO desire to end another's life.   Some people seem to almost get turned on by the thought of using their firearm.  Nobody should die over camera gear;  that said - protect yourself when you need to.


----------



## nerwin (May 17, 2017)

I live in Vermont, you can literally walk around with a glock with an extended mag and no one will say a word! Haha. I may or may not have done that.


----------



## Dashur (May 17, 2017)

Thank you for not saying "clip"


----------



## tirediron (May 17, 2017)

*Ahem*  Can we please return to the OPs question folks, which, as I recall had nothing to do with firearms?

Thanks!


----------



## The_Traveler (May 17, 2017)

This kind of questions always end up with answers from guys who have the excuse to talk about their macho behavior - and, tbh, really sound a bit silly.

The best way to end a fight is to fend off the hostile person and de-escalate, not respond. In too many years of shooting, I have been yelled at a few times and swung on once (by a drunk street person). When the swing missed, he lost interest.


----------



## Gary A. (May 17, 2017)

tirediron said:


> Geezzz... I've had it easy!    The worst I can claim is having a cup of coffee (X-Large) thrown over me and my camera a couple of years ago while covering a Wounded Warriors event.  Some guy in the back of the room seemed to think I was targeting him (In truth I hadn't even noticed him); he ordered an X-Large coffee with a ton of cream and sugar, walked right up to me (I was by the door), threw/poured it on me and kept walking.  The staff were horrified...  If it had been a different time and place I would have had "words" with him, but on that occasion I simply ignored it (and smelled like vanilla/hazel-nut for the rest of the day).


You smelling like vanilla/hazel-nut most likely isn't a bad thing.


----------



## tirediron (May 17, 2017)

Gary A. said:


> You smelling like vanilla/hazel-nut most likely isn't a bad thing.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 17, 2017)

The_Traveler said:


> This kind of questions always end up with answers from guys who have the excuse to talk about their macho behavior - and, tbh, really sound a bit silly.
> 
> The best way to end a fight is to fend off the hostile person and de-escalate, not respond. In too many years of shooting, I have been yelled at a few times and swung on once (by a drunk street person). When the swing missed, he lost interest.


Unfortunately, things are not always like that. The goal is to be prepared. Sometimes, you literally have no option other than defend yourself. A good example of unpredictable human behavior is when they're intoxicated. Many people, maybe majority, are not trained in the art of defending one's self. I had all my children trained and recommend adults learn as well. Self defense training should be an artistic and disciplinary experience, not one of violence and aggression. Proper training produces harmony, the physical defense is considered a last resort to properly subdue an attack without lethal force.


----------



## DarkShadow (May 17, 2017)

I had  Ospreys yell at me on occasions, been dive bombed by a little chickadee and a few swallows here and there but no one was hurt. If I really felt threatened I would have to whip up a fish or some seeds to smooth things over.


----------



## Gary A. (May 17, 2017)

I rarely get confronted.  I think that having situational awareness, looking/dressing professionally and acting professionally goes a long way in deterring most negative encounters.  When shooting on the Streets, these are Gary's recommendations.

Situational Awareness: Know where you are and who's around you. This takes a lot of practice.  It isn't rubbernecking, as much as it is peripheral vision.  You've all seen those spy movies where the good guy/gal walks into a restaurant and instantly scopes out the room ... sorta like that, as you walk check everything out, front sides and back (helps with photo opps as well), when you bring a camera to your eye keep both eyes open.  If you have a bag, randomly touch your bag.  If you spot/sense potential trouble, walk away (keep on walking).

Looking Professional:  Dress 'professionally', like you're working for a newspaper or magazine.  I always wear, from bottom to top, closed-toed shoes (no sandals), sneakers, casual shoes something comfy that you can run in.  Long pant, never shorts, a shirt with sleeves and a collar, never a tank top or a Tee and never a shirt with something written on it or a crazy patterned, tie-dyed shirt.  A shirt that doesn't say 'Look-at-Me-I'm-Cool', but clothing that says I'm working, respect me.

Acting Professional: Don't be goofy, if you're out on the Streets taking photos ... well that is your job for the day, take it seriously and act accordingly. No selfies, walk with determination, no stalking and hiding (unless you're into that type of thing), be out-in-the-open and upfront with your cameras.  Make eye contact with people, acknowledge their presence with a quick smile or nod, be friendly, but with an undertone of seriousness, after all ... you are working.

Usually, confrontations occur in the lower economic areas of the city.  Those areas often carry a opportunity for photos with greater image impact than the upscale economic areas.  Be aware that those are not 'your street', you are an interloper there, and in the worst case scenario, if it is gang controlled, you are there solely at the pleasure of the gang.  Always be mentally prepared for the worst. In baseball, one of the first things you learn on defense is to figure out what to do if the ball is hit to you.  Before every pitch you think about the score, the outs, how the bases are loaded, the count ... and how to react if it's a fly or a grounder.  Same-o for Street.  Think and be prepared for the worst.

I've travelled the world and walked in some serious neighborhoods with cameras and a camera bag hanging off my shoulders.  Only once has a non-government/private citizen(s) ever tried to take my cameras.  Sure I've been confronted a zillion times with stink-eyes and shouts and conversations, some more polite than others. I've always been able to first, walk away from the situation before a direct confrontation (seeing/sensing a person/people watching me and closing in and I simply walk away prior to them closing in), quickly walking/running away from potential danger into an area of relative safety and/or just talking my way out. 

Robbery is different from the above, people upset and insulted because they think you took their picture without 'permission', making them feel as if they're an exhibit in a zoo.

In the States, most petty robbery/theft is about drugs.  The robber does know or care if your camera is a $6000 Nikon or a $300 Canon, all they care about is their next 'fix' and that camera could pay for it.  Usual common sense and reason is gone as these people are mostly working off instinct.  But they look for easy 'marks' ... a tourist who would be gone in a day or two, a person with their guard down.  I think looking and acting professionally, a person who has made eye contact with them would not be considered an easy mark.  In their mind's a pro is more likely to defend their stuff than a tourist.






This guy was huge.  He is the only person who physically attempted to take my cameras.  I think he was mentally challenged.  I quickly walked away and he gave chase as I weaved in and out of the pedestrians on the crowded sidewalk.  After about half a block of the chase, I ducked into a busy cafeteria and he didn't follow.  I had a snack and continued shooting when the coast was clear. 

Personally, I never carry a weapon.  For me, a weapon would lower my situational awareness, embolden my reactions to confrontations and be cause for the other side to react in kind.  I'd rather use my wits.


----------



## smoke665 (May 17, 2017)

pendennis said:


> I always carry a concealed pistol under my vest, but I will retreat rather than confront.



Many years ago, I started carrying a concealed weapon because of the amount of cash I carried (drivers expense money), and the hours I kept (late nights at office). It was a necessary item, like a belt, and yes there have been times when I needed it. Outside of that there have been times when I did and didn't carry. Now I rarely carry unless the situation warrants. Most of the squirrels, deer, rabbits, and other inhabitants on my mountain are friendly so it isn't really necessary. As stated above the best move possible is to retreat, and as Gary A pointed out being aware of your surroundings makes it  much easier to move away from a danger then react to an immediate threat.


----------



## tirediron (May 17, 2017)

Gary A. said:


> ...Looking Professional:  Dress 'professionally', like you're working for a newspaper or magazine.  I always wear, from bottom to top, closed-toed shoes (no sandals), sneakers, casual shoes something comfy that you can run in.  Long pant, never shorts, a shirt with sleeves and a collar, never a tank top or a Tee and never a shirt with something written on it or a crazy patterned, tie-dyed shirt.  A shirt that doesn't say 'Look-at-Me-I'm-Cool', but clothing that says I'm working, respect me.
> 
> Acting Professional: Don't be goofy, if you're out on the Streets taking photos ... well that is your job for the day, take it seriously and act accordingly. No selfies, walk with determination, no stalking and hiding (unless you're into that type of thing), be out-in-the-open and upfront with your cameras.  Make eye contact with people, acknowledge their presence with a quick smile or nod, be friendly, but with an undertone of seriousness, after all ... you are working....


This is the key!  I've been shooting in places like the very outer-most skirts of Ensenada, Mexico, the [huge] slums of southern India, throughout most of the Middle East, Djbouti, Africa and a few other places that don't make the 'Top Ten Tourist Hot Spots' on ANY list.  Never had a genuine threat... a few people who seemed angry, a few who wanted money for "letting me" photograph them... that's about it.  With a couple of exceptions, I follow Gary's recommendations exactly.  I tend to prefer well worn in, good quality hiking boots, and in hotter areas I go with a short-sleeve t-shirt (plain, dark colour).

Near Fujairah, UAE, 2009


----------



## table1349 (May 17, 2017)

Life or possession.  I choose life.   

However before I gave it up, the BG would have to talk to my friends, Smith & Wesson.  They may be small but they pack a wallop and they most definitely can walk the walk.  When you have had friends like Smith & Wesson or Mr. Glock with you 24/7 for over 30 years, it just kind of becomes a habit.


----------



## tecboy (May 17, 2017)

tirediron said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > ...Looking Professional:  Dress 'professionally', like you're working for a newspaper or magazine.  I always wear, from bottom to top, closed-toed shoes (no sandals), sneakers, casual shoes something comfy that you can run in.  Long pant, never shorts, a shirt with sleeves and a collar, never a tank top or a Tee and never a shirt with something written on it or a crazy patterned, tie-dyed shirt.  A shirt that doesn't say 'Look-at-Me-I'm-Cool', but clothing that says I'm working, respect me.
> ...



You look like a special ops photographer.  Were you on a reconnaissance mission?


----------



## Gary A. (May 17, 2017)




----------



## tirediron (May 17, 2017)

tecboy said:


> You look like a special ops photographer.  Were you on a reconnaissance mission?


Nothing so glamorous!


----------



## jcdeboever (May 17, 2017)

Good stuff by @Gary A. . Virtually communicates the preparedness and common sense art of escapism. It truly is an art. His described techniques are taught in self defense training. Physical altercations are an anomaly, however always present. Gary was prepared that day but keep in mind he is a professional with a great deal of experience  that you can use because of this forum. Gary may not have had Internet at that time... just saying....


----------



## Gary A. (May 17, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> Good stuff by @Gary A. . Virtually communicates the preparedness and common sense art of escapism. It truly is an art. His described techniques are taught in self defense training. Physical altercations are an anomaly, however always present. Gary was prepared that day but keep in mind he is a professional with a great deal of experience  that you can use because of this forum. Gary may not have had Internet at that time... just saying....


Most importantly, Gary still got his shot. lol


----------



## Dave442 (May 17, 2017)

I would hand over my camera. Heck, the last time someone pulled a gun on me I held out the car keys, but all they wanted was cash.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 17, 2017)

Dave442 said:


> I would hand over my camera. Heck, the last time someone pulled a gun on me I held out the car keys, but all they wanted was cash.


Well a gun is a different story.


----------



## Destin (May 17, 2017)

480sparky said:


> I carry more to shoot with than just a camera............ if you get my drift.



This. Also not looking to make this a gun debate, just stating how I do things. I wouldn't even consider making myself a target by walking around with thousands of dollars in camera gear, unless I had a reliable way to defend myself. The world is a scary place, and I just like having the best odds of survival I can.


----------



## runnah (May 18, 2017)

Pro TIp: If you ever find yourself on the verge of a physical altercation start removing your clothing. No one wants to fight a naked person. Bonus points if you make it sexy.


----------



## Gary A. (May 18, 2017)

To answer the question directly, yes I would, but only after exhausting other alternatives.


----------



## table1349 (May 18, 2017)

runnah said:


> Pro TIp: If you ever find yourself on the verge of a physical altercation start removing your clothing. No one wants to fight a naked person. Bonus points if you make it sexy.


Au contraire mon frere.   Apparently you have never been dispatched to a riot at a gay bath house.


----------



## Gary A. (May 18, 2017)

gryphonslair99 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Pro TIp: If you ever find yourself on the verge of a physical altercation start removing your clothing. No one wants to fight a naked person. Bonus points if you make it sexy.
> ...


There are always exceptions to the general rule.


----------



## table1349 (May 18, 2017)

Gary A. said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


This was quite the exception all right.  Try to visualize if you will the above scene minus horses and clothes.  That was pretty much what it was like when we walked in.  Thankfully _"The Tub"_ closed several years ago.  It was our little slice of New York, or a New York bath house from years ago.  The stories I could tell you about that place would fill a book.


----------



## OldManJim (May 25, 2017)

This is why I like photographing trees and streams. Although, once, I had a squirrel who seemed pretty upset.........


----------



## 480sparky (May 25, 2017)

OldManJim said:


> This is why I like photographing trees and streams. Although, once, I had a squirrel who seemed pretty upset.........



If a tree fell on a photographer in the forest and killed him, did it make any sound?


----------



## smoke665 (May 25, 2017)

Had a few woods encounters. Several deer no problems there, couple  with a black bear (he was more curious than scary), two bobcat encounters that always scare the crap out of me when they scream, and I didn't know they were there, and one with a cougar (4 legs, that scared me out of the woods for awhile). I never had any complaints about my photos of them, though I'll admit it's hard to remember to take the shot when something either scares the crap out of you, or you're afraid you might be found in the crap later.


----------



## table1349 (May 25, 2017)

OldManJim said:


> This is why I like photographing trees and streams. Although, once, I had a squirrel who seemed pretty upset.........


Yep ain't nothing better than trucking around in the woods.


----------



## chuasam (May 27, 2017)

I have an Olympus TG4 on a lanyard if I'm not being paid. That thing can do some serious damage to a face.


----------



## table1349 (May 27, 2017)

chuasam said:


> I have an Olympus TG4 on a lanyard if I'm not being paid. That thing can do some serious damage to a face.


Simple rule to remember, _Never bring a knife or a lanyard to a gun fight.  _


----------



## dennybeall (May 27, 2017)

My cousins are with me at all times.


----------



## chuasam (May 27, 2017)

gryphonslair99 said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > I have an Olympus TG4 on a lanyard if I'm not being paid. That thing can do some serious damage to a face.
> ...


We don't have a gun problem here


----------



## DarkShadow (May 28, 2017)

Safety in numbers if you go to unfamiliar or known areas with higher crime. I have a simple rule,dont put my self in that situation by staying clear from unfamiliar areas or areas I know there is a high probability of being a victim of a crime. I only go to areas I know well and though it is less likely to happen in the areas I  go, it still could happen anywhere.  Despite having the means to end a threat I will still try to avoid it at all cost by retreating to somewhere safe until its safe to move on. And to answer the question give up my gear nope,I am not giving up anything that belongs to me.


----------



## jtran76 (Jul 15, 2017)

Most of the time when I am shooting I normally have a friend with me if going somewhere unfamiliar but for the times when I am shooting by myself I normally carry expandable baton just in case if someone wants to attack me but thankfully I never had to use it.


----------



## benhasajeep (Jul 15, 2017)

This is one of those situations that you really don't know what you would do.  Can say what you would do, but once there in the situation it's a different game!  Different decision process going on.


----------



## BananaRepublic (Jul 16, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I was photographing at a public place.  There was a man approached and yelled at me.  He accused me that I took his pictures.  I tried to tell him that I didn't.  There were no pictures of him in my camera.  Then he threatened me with his profanity,"Give me your camera!!!  M**F**!!"  He kept repeating himself over and over.  He swing his fist at my face a couple of times.  He missed as I moved back trying to defend myself and yelled at him, "Hey!"  He rode his bicycle and left.  I was so scared, and I contacted the police.



I suppose you have to be a tough guy to control a push bike.


----------



## tecboy (Jul 16, 2017)

BananaRepublic said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > I was photographing at a public place.  There was a man approached and yelled at me.  He accused me that I took his pictures.  I tried to tell him that I didn't.  There were no pictures of him in my camera.  Then he threatened me with his profanity,"Give me your camera!!!  M**F**!!"  He kept repeating himself over and over.  He swing his fist at my face a couple of times.  He missed as I moved back trying to defend myself and yelled at him, "Hey!"  He rode his bicycle and left.  I was so scared, and I contacted the police.
> ...



Huh?


----------

