# The ongoing debate: colour or black & white?



## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

Digital sometimes gives us too many choices I think! I took these tonight and was really happy with colour. Then i switched them to b & w and they gave an entirely different mood:




















This last one i could never be satisfied with doing a black and white conversion, if you want to download it and see if you can get it to work in black in white, be my guest. I just thought I would include because its the fence behind the monument.





Comments/Criticisms/Suggestions welcome.

Any critique on compostion is more than welcome, but i am mainly looking  for insights into the strengths and weaknesses of colour vs. black in these images. Look beyond your biases of colour or b&w and help me out here. Again, I am not looking to say if one is better than another, but just trying   to gather how each impacts the viewers in different ways.


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## LaFoto (Mar 15, 2004)

Oh, I want the last one as my computer's wallpaper!!! I LOVE it!!!

Of the first, I prefer the first over the second motif (that monument taken "Tadj Mahal"-style, if you understand?) in both ways, and although I do see where the mood changes dramatically - the sky's soooo much more brooding and dramatic in the b+w version), I prefer the colour version because of the colours. The light was special on the occasion and you had a chance to capture that low, yellow sun, which is why I am glad I get a chance to see it, too.

It is a matter of taste, too, I think. Fans of b+w will say they prefer the b+w variant. If you want to see the heavy clouds, THAT photo will give you those. If you want to see the special effect of a low sun against some heavy weather, the colour photo will do it for you.

But the fence... puleeeeeaaaaase! Let me have it as my wallpaper, hm??? (How large would it have to be?)


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## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

hi laphoto, 

check your pm 



> If you want to see the heavy clouds, THAT photo will give you those. If you want to see the special effect of a low sun against some heavy weather, the colour photo will do it for you.



thanks, for that Laphoto, that is a good very point.. thats exactly the kind of information i looking for here 

There are also very very subtle differences highlighted and deemphasized in b&w photos. Can any one see these differences? Do this differences impact on the final outcome?


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## karissa (Mar 15, 2004)

OH my.... that last one.... Is great... it might be ever so slightly dark though.  I would play with the levels and see.

Um.. the first one... while excellent color and black and white I'm not really sure I like it all that much.  The reflection getting cut off disturbs me.  :? 

Second one.  Gahh... I love both.  I mean I was going to say that the black and white gave the clouds a really mean and evil storm feel but the color does also.  The color one is gorgeous in it's color but the black and white brings out the excellent composition more.  I just can't pick. :?


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## ksmattfish (Mar 15, 2004)

Vonn- how did you convert to BW in the middle set (flowers in foreground, tower in background)?

Let's see what each of the RGB channels looks like.  It would be a good demonstration of using colored filters to affect tones and contrast for BW.

I really like the first one.  The color version is very serene, while the BW version seems more dramatic and stormy.


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## voodoocat (Mar 15, 2004)

Dude, mark that last image is incredible.  That is definately my favorite image from you.  

You're so damn lucky to have as much dramatic lighting and cloud formations.  I really envy you.  Of course, you know how to capture the image, and your composition is wonderful.


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## graigdavis (Mar 15, 2004)

I can absolutly see the differencs from color and b&w in these.  the b&w give it a spooky feel.  I am currently frustrated with some pictures that I dont know if they should be color or b&w.

Im gona ride the fence here.  Either way you go your going to have strong pictures with a lot of depth.  You might want to mess with the contrast in the b&w pictures.


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## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

Thanks Matt, 

The 'filtering' is exactly the subtle differences i've noticed in the pics:

1. Notice that there is a 'blue' tile next to the reflection pool in the colour pic. That is all but gone in the b&w image. 

2. A couple things here. The most striking is the flower, you can see the veins in the flowers in the black n white one, but they are very difficult to tell in the colour one. Also the tip of the monument looks hollow, where the in the colour one it doesn't. I am not sure about why on this one.

I used the channel mixer to get these effects, i left it on 100% red, 10% green, -10% blue for my final one:





This one is emphasized the green channel: 100% green, 0% red, 0% blue





This one emphasizes the blue channel: 100% blue, 0% green, 0% red.





Personally i've never like anything with too much of a blue cast for some reason there seems to be alot of muddiness there... For those who are new to b&w channel mixing, check out voodoocats tutorial here: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4048 Its tip # 3.

Thanks for feedback and suggestions!

The last one was a pleasant surprise for me... I was almost certain that it was going to be a tosser because in the camera screen the only thing you could see was the fence. It actually took minimal work in pshop to bring out the greens and the sky in that one.



> I would play with the levels and see.



thanks Karissa, the more I play with levels the less i like it  Though I can't give a technical reason why, levels can really nuke the the tonality of your pic. There are ways around this that are much better than levels that I will do a tutorial on someday. I am learning that levels are just a quick fix and should not be used for every situation to bring out details in the shadows.  

Oh, thats not to say your observations aren't right here - the original picture was really dark!


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## karissa (Mar 15, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> thanks Karissa, the more I play with levels the less i like it  Though I can't give a technical reason why, levels can really nuke the the tonality of your pic. There are ways around this that are much better than levels that I will do a tutorial on someday. I am learning that levels are just a quick fix and should not be used for every situation to bring out details in the shadows.
> 
> Oh, thats not to say your observations aren't right here - the original picture was really dark!



Thats ok man I understand.  I never said I was anywhere near as good as you are with ps.  I'm a baby still.  I made the observation but didn't really know how to fix it. :?   One of these days I'm going to check out the tutorials you guys are doing.  I could really use some.


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## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

> thats ok man I understand. I never said I was anywhere near as good as you are with ps.



, i am no where as good as i think i am with photoshop!! We aren't here to compare are respective skills but here to learn from one another! :mrgreen:


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## Digital Matt (Mar 15, 2004)

Nice work on these.  That last shot is so amazing 
I prefer curves to levels anyday.


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## karissa (Mar 15, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> > thats ok man I understand. I never said I was anywhere near as good as you are with ps.
> 
> 
> 
> , i am no where as good as i think i am with photoshop!! We aren't here to compare are respective skills but here to learn from one another! :mrgreen:



That being the reason we all love it here! :love:  :hug: Thanks Vonnagy.


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## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

karissa said:
			
		

> That being the reason we all love it here! :love:  :hug: Thanks Vonnagy.



 it is great place, eh?



> I find that in some cases changeing a color to b&w can take away from a picture as in your first example. were I think it added to it in your second example.



I think know what you are getting at here, but do think you can explain how it takes away from the first and adds to the second? When you mention 'takes away' what does it take away aside from the colour?  Also does  'taking away' have any negative or positive connotations?

Thanks for the comment, I'm just wanting know exactly what you see


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## PhotoJoe (Mar 15, 2004)

That one of the fence is absolutely breath taking!


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## Tammy (Mar 15, 2004)

Usually I prefer b/w, but with these - I can't choose - I like them all both ways.... very nice work.


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## Harpper (Mar 15, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> Then i switched them to b & w and they gave an entirely different mood:


I think you pretty much answered your question here. For most pictures, I've noticed they can look good in either B&W or color. What it comes down to it the mood and feeling you are trying to convey. There are, however, times when I prefered over the other. For example, if the colors don't work well together or if I want to set a specific mood, etc.

First set: 
I like the colors in relation to one another. The goldish building against the blueish clouds have a nice contrast with each other. You kind of lose that in the B&W shot. With the overcast dark lighting and the cloud formations I already get a sense of doom from both. The B&W shot helps to intensify these feelings. Also going from B&W to color changes the focal point of the picture. In the color one the goldish building is the focal point whereas in the B&W it's more of the atmosphere of the picture in relation to the buidling. Hopefully that made any sense.  

Second set:
These pictures are a perfect example of the different moods color and B&W create. The color shot looks rather cheerful especially since you photographed those two flowers along with the rows in the background. The B&W picture looks very dark and moody especially with the darker shades of gray. The once cheerful flowers look like they are almost dead and the anger of the clouds have been brought out with B&W. I hardly noticed the clouds in the colored one.

Last picture:
This is such a great shot! The clouds and the orange hue on the fence really does it for me. It's a great composition you had with the fence stretching most of the picture. 

I don't know if that's what you were asking when you wanted us to evaluated color vs B&W, but now that you have read it.... that's 5 minutes out of your life you will never have back!


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## vonnagy (Mar 15, 2004)

Thanks Harpper!




> I don't know if that's what you were asking when you wanted us to evaluated color vs B&W, but now that you have read it.... that's 5 minutes out of your life you will never have back!



I really apprecite your analysis on that one, thats five more minutes of my in which i've learned a new perspective on something 

I guess I'm just really wanted to dig heap and and see why b&w alters the mood so much... i think i might be getting in over my head on this one here (note to chase: we need an over the head smilie). It seems to be a consensus that b&w gives these particular pics a dark foreboding tune, but its prolly not the always the case for every pic. Anyways, thanks for the feedback!

bp22hot, thanks for your views as well!


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## Mitica100 (Mar 15, 2004)

Goodness!  Beautiful work!  On all accounts.

I might be biased but the BW version of the tower speaks volumes to me.  It has a very 'threatening' quality, almost like the gates of h*ll are about to open.  Someone noted the reflection of the tower in the pool being cut, I tend to agree.  I would have loved to see the reflection of the whole tower in the water of the pool.

Last pic is also haunting!  The fence is so beautifully lit, it takes my eyes from right to left.  Love it!


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## Harpper (Mar 15, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> It seems to be a consensus that b&w gives these particular pics a dark foreboding tune, but its prolly not the always the case for every pic.


Nope, because B&W also gives a solitarity mood to it, at least it does for me. For example, the picture you took of the boot on the beach gave me a peaceful solitarity to it. Also that picture had a brighter contrast to it which also helps to set the mood. Your B&W on these pictures are on the rather dark contrast side, which helps give it a foreboding feeling.

Anyway, don't worry about being over your head about this. I think you know more about all this then you care to admit judging from your other B&W pictures. I don't know the exact science to this all either so you are not alone. When I take my pictures I usually don't think about these factors but rather go on my gut insinct. I'm glad you created this thread because I didn't really think deeply about B&W vs color until now. I just knew I had a different feeling for my pictures when they are in B&W vs color. Putting my emotions into words really helped be learned this area more.

Sometimes I think I learn more by critequing others...


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## markc (Mar 15, 2004)

For the first one, I prefer the color image over the B&amp;W, though both are great. For the second, I can't make up my mind. Both really put forth their repsective moods. I can see where the last one would probably need to stay in color. They all are amazing shots! I think everyone's covered the details already.


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## TwistMyArm (Mar 15, 2004)

Awesome Mark.


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## BigRC (Mar 15, 2004)

Those are excellent shots! The last one is simply amazing, keep posting pictures you definitely keep me motivated! 

These remind me of some shots I took today, going to go post now.


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## LaFoto (Mar 17, 2004)

I just HAVE to come back to this thread and these photos, mostly so the last of the set, the "Golden Fence", Mark, because I want to tell you how much nicer it is when it fills the entire screen. 
Now I can tell each rose petal from each other and the sky is so much clearer in this high resolution that you mailed me for my wallpaper!
The cloud formation actually has something of a David Caspar Friedrich painting - do you happen to know this painter?
Wonderful.
I feel much inclined to ask you whether I may ask my father-in-law (who does a little bit of late-in-life hobby painting in oil, and he's really good at sky impressions) if he'd want to try himself on "The Golden Fence"!?!?!? This sky might be a nice challenge for him!


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## vonnagy (Mar 17, 2004)

LaFoto said:
			
		

> I feel much inclined to ask you whether I may ask my father-in-law (who does a little bit of late-in-life hobby painting in oil, and he's really good at sky impressions) if he'd want to try himself on "The Golden Fence"!?!?!? This sky might be a nice challenge for him!



wow, i am really flattered :blulsh2: :blulsh2:

That sounds fine to me, if he does try to tackle it, make sure send me a copy so i can use that as my wallpaper


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