# "Out of all the photos we took, that's all you got?"



## rexbobcat (Nov 11, 2014)

Okay, so like, how do you deal with situations like the following:

The italics are me. The regular text is them.

_"How would you like me to take some photos of you as a favor, no charge?"_

"Sounds great!"

*after I send the photos*

_"Here you go! I hope you like them. "_

"Out of all the photos we took, that's all we got?"

_"Wait, what?  I spent hours editing these photos, because I don't like to send a bunch of redundant, half-ass images in bulk.  I don't outsource this stuff. I sit at the computer until midnight trying to retouch your shitty, sun-damaged skin so you don't complain about it, giving me more work to do to make you happy. But you're going to gripe anyways? You're going to complain about free pictures? Nope. I'm done. I am done. Here, let me apply a filter and you can do what you like. Bye."_

That's what I wanted to say, but I just told them I edited what I thought were the best photos and I'll just send them the rest as well.

I just don't understand how some people have the audacity to just...I...How do you handle these situations?


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## Overread (Nov 11, 2014)

You have to understand that:

1) Most people have very low standards of their own photography and a low level of skill (and often low level tools). So they consistently produce an acceptable level of quality with their photos. 

2) They then assume that a "PRO" knows even more and will achieve a higher level of quality, but with an identical keeper rate (ergo every time you hit that shutter its a keeper). 

3) Some are spoilt by cheap photographers who do just give them a disk of everything that was shot. 

As a result they assume that every click they hear is another shot - another totally fantastic keeper. The truth is very far from it - we might take a series of shots and discount all but one for minor mistakes that the average person won't "see" unless they are pointed out to them. We do that so that we give them the one shot that makes them go "WOW". 

Now sometimes you might also take a series of shots that are not what the person wanted or expected. Might be they didn't have any ideas before the shoot, but they know after what they sort of wanted (or at least didn't want). Coupled to that are some who have ideas but can't express them in words - so again they get disappointed if you didn't mind-read from them what they wanted. 


Of course others also think that photographers like to hold shots back (to clearly sell to big newspapers or art galleries and make a FORTUNE) or to charge extra for or just because we hate people and are evil or something. 


Basically the best defence you have so to simply explain that you deleted any shots that were not good enough (helps stop endless - please please please just them them to me) and that many shots you did take had minor faults on them that made them unsuitable for public release (say minor - if you say major suddenly they question all your skills).


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## rexbobcat (Nov 11, 2014)

Overread said:


> You have to understand that:
> 
> 1) Most people have very low standards of their own photography and a low level of skill (and often low level tools). So they consistently produce an acceptable level of quality with their photos.
> 
> ...



Understandable. I mean, I've gotten requests before from people asking if I had a certain photo (Hey, do you have a pic of me and my aunt, blah blah), but I just don't get it. From the outside looking in, so many photographers seem to charge $250 minimum, give the people 20 images on a disc, and everybody's happy. I explicitly tell them I do not send 150 photos in bulk, and I send them 20 photos for a low price or for free - for friends or to barter for another service - to avoid all the bitching, but they aren't....satisfied? If you have an issue, just don't be a jerk about it. I'll be glad to try and grant your request and will probably be quick about it if you're nice to me. Not a difficult concept, I would think.

Maybe I just attract terrible people? I don't know...


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## Rick50 (Nov 11, 2014)

Right, when people have never tried something they have no respect for what it takes to do something. Applies to all fields.
I spent my whole life taking "light" for granted, sun comes up then goes down". Then I got into photography.....


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## Overread (Nov 11, 2014)

People are always grabby for what they can. Natural and perfectly normal.

Sometimes yeah if you do even event like a wedding you will get requests for shots of people even if they are not all that good and it can be worth following up those requests because the person is more after something that shows a person they have an emotional attachment to, but who they don't see very often (big events tend to draw people in from all over the world at times). 

Otherwise if its just something like a portrait session chances are what you give them is the best and the only stuff worth having. 

Sometimes you can get around this by charging more. You see the more you make someone part with a higher sum of money the more they assume that your skill is greater. For better or worse we measure success by money - and skill by earning power. We falsely assume that if you're charging lots you WILL be very good - similarly if you're charging peanuts you're probably not all that good cause you're not charging very much. (course this gets more complex with friends and family - hence the maxim never work for friends or family )


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## rexbobcat (Nov 11, 2014)

Yeah, I'm going to have to do something different.

If I wanted to deal with rude people I would go be a server at Red Lobster.


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## Heather Koch (Nov 11, 2014)

I totally get what you are saying.  I had a similar "case" but wasn't to the extent... Though I told them I took over 150 photos and then later showed them 15... In result they asked what happened to the rest?  "Well you eyes were shut, hair was messed up, face was awkward, etc, etc, etc"

In those situations just be professional about it and simply explain to them to spend hours upon hours editing what YOU think is best.


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## D-B-J (Nov 11, 2014)

I recently (this spring) shot a couple for two hours, charged $50, delivered 20 or so images, and then was told they expected MORE for what they paid. 

There will ALWAYS be clients that are unappreciative or rude. Always. State your piece ( I deliver only the best blah blah blah) and shake it off.


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## KmH (Nov 11, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> and I'll just send them the rest as well.


So your photos are just a commodity?
Rather than being a luxury item you might sell to make a decent living?

Here is the referral you'll get from those people."Oh ya! He does photos for free AND he'll give you ALL the photos."

Did you use a contract?
Did you give them a use license (print release)?

Learn how to say - NO - in business speak.
"There are no other photos. At my sole discretion I delete shots that don't meet my minimum standards for image quality."


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## photoguy99 (Nov 11, 2014)

People don't understand the keeper rate.

You've got a fancy camera, shouldn't they pay much all be keepers? My brother in law uses an SD card with Wi-Fi built in that automatically uploads everything he shots to some sharing site. He literally cannot understand why I don't do the same.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 11, 2014)

KmH said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > and I'll just send them the rest as well.
> ...



Well this was already a one-off charity type thing. I can deal with those referrals because I can always explain to the referred people the situation. However, if I just say, "Sorry that's all you get," then they're more likely not to refer people to me at all since I "only" give x amount of photos.

And really, for this kind of photography, if a client isn't going to treat it like a luxury in the rudest way possible, then I don't have the power to change their mind. They can have their mediocrity if it means I never have to deal with them again.

There's really no winning when the client is an ass.


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## weepete (Nov 11, 2014)

Quite often when I'm shooting I tell people I'm taking "test shots", shot off a good few few frames and then take one or two after fiddling with my camera. It not only allows me to lower the expectation of keepers it also let's me get some shots of family members who are awkward in more posed shots.


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## tirediron (Nov 11, 2014)

One of the things I do is limit expectations up front; this is what I normally tell clients:  "You will notice that I seem to take a lot of photos, but many of them are virtually identical, and I only process the best images.  Out of this session you can expect to receive approximately 'X' images."  (I generally give them a number that's at least 10% lower than what I really expect to be able to provide - under promise & over deliver!)


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## snerd (Nov 11, 2014)

Shoot landscapes, much less stress.


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## tirediron (Nov 11, 2014)

snerd said:


> Shoot landscapes, much less stress.


True, but...  it's really hard to get a tree to pay for a photo of itself!


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## snerd (Nov 11, 2014)

tirediron said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot landscapes, much less stress.
> ...


Lots of people will pay for those tree and sunset shots!


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## Gary A. (Nov 11, 2014)

tirediron said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot landscapes, much less stress.
> ...


That may be true but the OP discussed free.


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## D-B-J (Nov 11, 2014)

tirediron said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot landscapes, much less stress.
> ...



'tis why I spend more on landscapes than I'll ever make


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## Gary A. (Nov 11, 2014)

I think that most Americans under 50 think they are entitled ... and/or the other party just doesn't know how to communicate in a gracious and polite manner. They may have intended to say ... "Thank you for the pictures, they are all great. It seems that you may have taken a lot more than what you are showing me. I know nothing about photography or how a photographer operates ... but I am curious to what what happened to the other pictures? Does it take a lot of work to produce a final picture?"

Personally, dollars to doughnuts they just feel entitled and want the other images.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 11, 2014)

tirediron said:


> One of the things I do is limit expectations up front; this is what I normally tell clients:  "You will notice that I seem to take a lot of photos, but many of them are virtually identical, and I only process the best images.  Out of this session you can expect to receive approximately 'X' images."  (I generally give them a number that's at least 10% lower than what I really expect to be able to provide - under promise & over deliver!)



I've really tried to do that the best I can. Maybe I've just had really bad luck with people. I've recouped my costs from my gear over the past two years. I've made enough to justify the purchase. I just wish there was a little more...I don't know...courtesy? Appreciation? Something, other than the money and the fact that this is my only area of skill, that makes me want to keep trying.


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## oldhippy (Nov 11, 2014)

This may not be the best solution, but having had my own business for 40+ years. Here goes.  Make it clear ahead of the job.  Tell them you will shoot many shots to fulfill there wants.  Also be clear, that you are a pro, and as a pro, you are very discerning.  So you will be keep just the best of the best.   Hope this helps.  Ed
P.s.  My work was construction and not photography.


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## tirediron (Nov 11, 2014)

Ed is wise!


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't think people seem to value your offers of 'free' photo sessions - why do them? Maybe it's making you seem less than a pro because you're offering to do work for free or next to nothing.

If you undervalue your work I don't think you can expect other people to value it. It doesn't seem like people respond well to having what seems like an excessive number of pictures taken and only being provided 20.

It takes time to develop a professional reputation and earn people's respect. Maybe you need to think about how you come across or how you're marketing yourself.


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## Gary A. (Nov 11, 2014)

I do a lot of pro bono work and I don't think I or my images are undervalued by myself or by those who have received my photographs.


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## bribrius (Nov 12, 2014)

don't know.
sometimes I just tell them while I am shooting "they wont all be keepers" and pretty much just lay it down while in progress and keep the bar a little higher maybe??.
Other times, like the kids I just "tried" shooting recently were a matter of asking them for a sd card, shooting on their sd card, running it through a quick edit, putting it back on their sd card and returning their sd card to them.
i deleted some, but only like the absolute WORST. For the most part they got near everything.

Depends on the person, situation, and how serious i am into it. The more serious the less they will get as my requirements for each photo increase. shooting a freebie for a friend though i don't worry to much about it. i would even give them a disk they could edit them by themselves if i thought i could get them to.

Haven't really had a huge problem with that like you though. if i say i am giving twenty i am giving twenty. More then more. i took the photos it is up to me they can shut the **** up.


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## bribrius (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> Okay, so like, how do you deal with situations like the following:
> 
> The italics are me. The regular text is them.
> 
> ...


this too. Like the kids i shot the other day, their parents were pretty happy to get any photos of them of even "decent" quality.
i got stuck messing with them in editing. i shouldn't have. i took the shoot going by share quantity (i probably shot a hundred) with a clear objective of giving them whatever i could but mostly filling the school type photo requirements (plus extra)  as they didn't have much for photos of their children that were decent.
instead of playing around with editing i should have done batch editing on the entire lot at once, deleted out the ten or whatever that was pure garbage and sent the rest. i messed up by not just going right to the batch editing.
Turned a twenty minute edit into a three hour edit by my own foolishness. And when you have enough quantity you can afford to delete photos without having to spend time editing trying to save any.


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## mmaria (Nov 12, 2014)

I always tell people up front that they'll get just a few pictures from me

I'll explain nicely that they'll see me snapping more than just a few pictures but that I'll choose and give them just a few out of those snaps... or maybe if I messed up a lot, because I really don't know much about photography, they'll get one or none at all.

They'll say: "Oh don't you worry, just give us all" 
I'll smile: "No, I won't."
They: ""Yes you will. We will like everything, you don't have to edit at all, just give us everything."
I'll smile again: "Yeah, yeah, but I just won't give you all. You'll get just a few."

After I send them pictures, they'll still insist on getting those I didn't send.

So... What's the point of this?
I explained nicely and lowered their expectations. I was polite and really really nice and smiling and all...
Does everything I say/do really help? No. They still don't get it.


Rarely people understand, rarely, but it happens.


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## mmaria (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> ... but I just told them I edited what I thought were the best photos and I'll just send them the rest as well.


Don't, just don't do what they want. They weren't especially nice to you, why would you be especially nice to them?


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## bribrius (Nov 12, 2014)

mmaria said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > ... but I just told them I edited what I thought were the best photos and I'll just send them the rest as well.
> ...


geez. i am in the opposite mmaria. i am TRYING to get photos to people. Because they are in folders on my computer (and backup).
i don't like deleting them, because they may want them.
They are freebies, i am not making money storing them
they annoy me..

once everything that is going or available to go is with that person or organization.
i can delete that file.
And get their photos out of my stuff. i hate clicking through my stuff and constantly running into files floating around, with other peoples stuff in it. Like it is my job to store their family photos or whatever it is i shot. what good does it do holding photos of someone or something else you took for them that they want and you don't?

send them, delete. There stuff their problem. my way of thinking anyway.


I am sure some out there hang on to everything anyway and don't delete.


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## Raj_55555 (Nov 12, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> I don't think people seem to value your offers of 'free' photo sessions - why do them?


My thoughts exactly! I've learned from experience that people will never ever realise the value of something that's been given to them for free. I was a good programmer, and used to teach a couple of juniors as a favor while in college but they never really took it seriously. As soon as I started charging them however, I seemed to have an endless supply of students who just had to study from me. When I started refusing a few, there parents even called me and asked me if it was about money as they are willing to pay more.
I stopped teaching after a while, but learned a good lesson that day. Now if I give something for free, I know better than to expect anything in return, and that includes gratitude.


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## Raj_55555 (Nov 12, 2014)

bribrius said:


> send them, delete. There stuff their problem. my way of thinking anyway.


I understand where you're coming from, but for a professional this means distributing a product that is less than perfect and thus ruining the brand image of his business. I would never do this if my livelihood depended on photography!


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## bribrius (Nov 12, 2014)

Raj_55555 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > send them, delete. There stuff their problem. my way of thinking anyway.
> ...


yeah. i probably should care more, i just don't. Depends on how low quality work we are talking about here?

Think about what you just said though on less than perfect and brand imaging..This is interesting.
All companies and professionals in companies distribute less than perfect products. i bought a new microwave today it will probably die in a year so i will have to buy another one.
And for me, what i make in photography (not much trust me) it doesn't really even matter. It is like reverse price point. As a 100 dollar shoot  compared to a 500 dollar shoot (you usually get what you pay for) or if the photographer makes a hundred k a year doing it or 5 k a year doing it.
clearly the lower on the side of that equation you go the less the photographer will be that concerned on his brand imaging.

i don't know if it is really even a branding thing.  My microwave cost 179 dollars (and will probably be dead in a year or two). i could buy the same BRAND microwave but a more expensive model for 300 dollars. which might last five years or more.
so if i dump a junk freebie shoot without concern and let them have all the photos, does that really matter to my "brand"? Clearly the freebie or pro bono isn't going to be the same level as paid work. And in most cases the higher the paid work the higher the quality will go, just like which pricepoint and microwave model i bought.  As you aren't servicing a niche market but rather crossing them and all at various price points and provided services.


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## mmaria (Nov 12, 2014)

bribrius said:


> geez. i am in the opposite mmaria. i am TRYING to get photos to people. Because they are in folders on my computer (and backup).
> i don't like deleting them, because they may want them.
> They are freebies, i am not making money storing them
> they annoy me..


I have that luxury to shoot for free if I want.

Earlier, I'd shoot for free because I needed experience and knowledge, but even then I wouldn't give them all photos because I didn't want to give something I'm not comfortable with in terms of my abilities.

Now, I'll shoot someone because I want to do "something nice for them."

If I'm not happy with what I did I won't give them pictures, I'll delete.


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## EIngerson (Nov 12, 2014)

Me "No, out of all the shots I took these are the only ones that you had your eyes open."


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## EIngerson (Nov 12, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> People don't understand the keeper rate.
> 
> You've got a fancy camera, shouldn't they pay much all be keepers? My brother in law uses an SD card with Wi-Fi built in that automatically uploads everything he shots to some sharing site. He literally cannot understand why I don't do the same.




True. My camera takes great pictures.


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## bribrius (Nov 12, 2014)

mmaria said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > geez. i am in the opposite mmaria. i am TRYING to get photos to people. Because they are in folders on my computer (and backup).
> ...


i can respect that and your feelings toward it. i probably just have lower standards. if you asked me six months ago i would declare that if i wasn't at least somewhat happy with a photo it would never see the light of day. I would be adamant about deleting it forever or at least not giving it to the client.
now, not so much. i cant explain. just stopped worrying so much about it. Now it is more about "usable" or "acceptable" or "good enough for purpose". Try to be nice and do that type of thing but really put more of the efforts and thoughts into my own personal work and what is more fun for me. so i seem more tempted to just do the "yeah, whatever. Here ya go" and get it off my radar to worry about.


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## KmH (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> There's really no winning when the client is an ass.


We 'qualify' people before they are accepted as clients, pro bono or other wise, to avoid the asses.
how to qualify a client - Google Search


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

I had this EXACT scenario with a guy that I used to be a LOT closer to. He got engaged, he's not got extra $$, and I was wanting to practice my people shooting so I offered engagement photos for free. Spent three hours with them on a Saturday, I have NO CLUE how many hours in front of the computer editing out the stupid hairband the girl had on her wrist the entire time, the occasional tree limb exploding out of the head, etc. I spent multiple nights in a row with just a couple hours of sleep in order to get them the photos quickly as they don't have a long engagement and wanted to send photos in the invitations...So, they ended up with 60 out of just over 200 shots that I was comfortable providing to them, edited, with both print and "screen" quality versions by the next Tuesday. They started pestering me on Sunday (less than 24 hours after the shoot ended) and didn't stop until I gave them the flash drive on Tuesday...I started getting more ignorant texts and emails from them wanting ALL the photos Wednesday morning, told them NO, and have dealt with snarky comments multiple times since then...All because I did a favor for a buddy....

Lesson learned? Set expectations up front, don't assume your friends are "cool," have a contract...even for free shoots, and people are jerks if given the opportunity...

Sorry you had the same scenario. I stuck to my guns and didn't give them the rest of the images because my name is FOREVER attached to those photos and could potentially turn future clients away without my even knowing it. They might see an out of focus shot that I allowed into the world, or a photo with hotspots on the face due weird shadows, etc. and decide I'm not their guy...Better safe than sorry. Plus, I really don't like being pushed around when I'm trying to do favors for people...so there's that.


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

For me, the more they complain/demand the higher the price gets


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## Braineack (Nov 12, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> I recently (this spring) shot a couple for two hours, charged $50, delivered 20 or so images, and then was told they expected MORE for what they paid.


rofl.


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## Rick50 (Nov 12, 2014)

Boy, this whole thread is why I refuse to get into the business side of photography. I don't need a job. I do it because I enjoy it.
I'm retired now but still do work for clients as an Electronics Consultant. It's much easier to interface with business people in some ways as they already know how it works. As an old boss once said "People are just no damn good!".


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## Didereaux (Nov 12, 2014)

Dam few have even the slightest amount of knowledge about photography.  You cannot assume that they do, so casually explain up front that out of every ten pictures or so even the pro are lucky to get one keeper.   Then they have some parameters on which to mull with their tiny little brains.


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

MichaelHenson said:


> I had this EXACT scenario with a guy that I used to be a LOT closer to. He got engaged, he's not got extra $$, and I was wanting to practice my people shooting so I offered engagement photos for free. Spent three hours with them on a Saturday, I have NO CLUE how many hours in front of the computer editing out the stupid hairband the girl had on her wrist the entire time, the occasional tree limb exploding out of the head, etc. I spent multiple nights in a row with just a couple hours of sleep in order to get them the photos quickly as they don't have a long engagement and wanted to send photos in the invitations...So, they ended up with 60 out of just over 200 shots that I was comfortable providing to them, edited, with both print and "screen" quality versions by the next Tuesday. They started pestering me on Sunday (less than 24 hours after the shoot ended) and didn't stop until I gave them the flash drive on Tuesday...I started getting more ignorant texts and emails from them wanting ALL the photos Wednesday morning, told them NO, and have dealt with snarky comments multiple times since then...All because I did a favor for a buddy....
> 
> Lesson learned? Set expectations up front, don't assume your friends are "cool," have a contract...even for free shoots, and people are jerks if given the opportunity...
> 
> Sorry you had the same scenario. I stuck to my guns and didn't give them the rest of the images because my name is FOREVER attached to those photos and could potentially turn future clients away without my even knowing it. They might see an out of focus shot that I allowed into the world, or a photo with hotspots on the face due weird shadows, etc. and decide I'm not their guy...Better safe than sorry. Plus, I really don't like being pushed around when I'm trying to do favors for people...so there's that.


Why don't you tell them how long it took to take the hairband out, the treelimb out, etc to make *their* photos much better.

Then they might understand more.  most people take a photo, then upload it and their done.  Post Processing .. never heard of it.


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Why don't you tell them how long it took to take the hairband out, the treelimb out, etc to make *their* photos much better.
> 
> Then they might understand more.  most people take a photo, then upload it and their done.  Post Processing .. never heard of it.



Did that...didn't help. The guy even had the audacity to "apologize" and then tell me that just for future reference I should plan on giving ALL the pictures to people to pick out at their convenience/leisure/for their purposes.

I almost slapped him.


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

MichaelHenson said:


> Did that...didn't help. The guy even had the audacity to "apologize" and then tell me that just for future reference I should plan on giving ALL the pictures to people to pick out at their convenience/leisure/for their purposes.
> 
> I almost slapped him.


I've noticed in photography as in other fields that I've done business in, the lower the price the more ridiculous the customer expectations.
The higher the price, the more inline expectations are.

Maybe tell him the first 20 are free.
after that it's $50 an electronic picture file
otherwise, he can have another photographer do it for them (after the fact)


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## photoguy99 (Nov 12, 2014)

I've only done a few free things for people, but nothing like this has ever happened to me.

Possibly, and this is why I am remarking here since you might find it useful, it's because I'm always clear that this is my show. I am borrowing you to make some photos. I might give you some prints some time in the future. Or not. It's my show. Thanks for standing there modeling for me so I can take photos for myself, I really appreciate it!

(this, incidentally, is one reason I don't do it for money -- it's pretty hard to charge people for maybe some prints of my choosing at some indeterminate time in the future, maybe, and that's the only way I can take photos of people, so).


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

mmaria said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > ... but I just told them I edited what I thought were the best photos and I'll just send them the rest as well.
> ...



Mostly it's just so I don't have to deal with them ever again (hopefully) lol


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> MichaelHenson said:
> 
> 
> > Did that...didn't help. The guy even had the audacity to "apologize" and then tell me that just for future reference I should plan on giving ALL the pictures to people to pick out at their convenience/leisure/for their purposes.
> ...


Yeah, that's going to be my policy going forward...in this case, I gave them the ones I was comfortable letting go and just told them that was it. It's in the past but the relationship is damaged, and I'm now jaded and cynical about helping out friends with stuff like this...I guess I'll chalk it up to their immaturity, lessons learned for me and move on. 

OP: I guess that's all that we can do. Learn the obnoxious lesson and figure out what to do so we don't get "burned" next time.


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## photoguy99 (Nov 12, 2014)

I don't know if it's the insults or the irrelevance that irritates me more.


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

tirediron said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot landscapes, much less stress.
> ...


It's like bleeding the syrup out of a Canadian Maple tree

oh wait, bad example


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## gsgary (Nov 12, 2014)

Nobody on here can take a joke


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Well you shouldn't have taken so many crappy shots and be more selective
> ...



Any chance there was sarcasm there from gsgary?


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## photoguy99 (Nov 12, 2014)

Oh, it's always sarcasm. Ha ha just joking. Ha ha. That makes it OK right? LOL.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

MichaelHenson said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



I can never tell. Sometimes he's earnestly rude and sometimes he's very vaguely sarcastic. Maybe it's that dry British humor, but if it is, it doesn't convey very well over the Internet.


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> MichaelHenson said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


that's why sarcasm / humor should always be followed by these things ....


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelHenson said:
> ...



lol Yeah pretty much. I always try to add enough hyperbole in my e-sarcasm that it can only be misconstrued by the densest of people. Or use the  smiley.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Maybe gsgary should read The Onion more often.


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Nobody on here can take a joke



Maybe add a smilie face next time?  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but there ha


astroNikon said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelHenson said:
> ...




Agreed. I tend to be a bit dry and sarcastic...so I'm a huge fan of excessive emoticon usage to convey a bit of the emotion.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Nobody on here can take a joke



You need to learn how to tell a joke before I can take it. Many times when you're sarcastic, you just kind of seem like a troll who doesn't know he's a troll.

Like, I never know if you're serious or not, because there's not much personality in your writing. It's like talking to someone with a flat affect....only on the Internet.


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## photoguy99 (Nov 12, 2014)

Oh, gary knows he's a troll. He just honestly thinks he's better than everyone else.


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## MichaelHenson (Nov 12, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Oh, it's always sarcasm. Ha ha just joking. Ha ha. That makes it OK right? LOL.



Yes. And also, you can just add, "I'm just saying!" to anything and that immediately makes it okay to say whatever you just said...For example....

I think that people that do free photoshoots for people and then don't provide ALL the images are heartless, cruel, sociopaths with a complete lack of decency and societal awareness and, as such, they should have their cameras ripped from their freshly mangled hands and smashed repeatedly into the ground until all the king's horses and all the king's men can't put them back together again...I'm just saying!


And, for safety's sake:


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

I've just learned over time that if you're going to be sarcastic on the Web, you have to be abundantly clear that you are being sarcastic. Otherwise drama ensues.


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## sm4him (Nov 12, 2014)

tirediron said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Shoot landscapes, much less stress.
> ...



Not that much harder than getting *some* people to pay, though. LOL


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## runnah (Nov 12, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> I've just learned over time that if you're going to be sarcastic on the Web, you have to be abundantly clear that you are being sarcastic. Otherwise drama ensues.



Where is the fun in that?!

PLEASE NOTE: The message above is sarcasm. I not condone such behavior.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 12, 2014)

runnah said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > I've just learned over time that if you're going to be sarcastic on the Web, you have to be abundantly clear that you are being sarcastic. Otherwise drama ensues.
> ...



Heh. Well, I guess you don't HAVE to be. But you'd better be prepared for the backlash.

Personally, when I get attacked by someone who doesn't get my sarcasm I just respond with, "Y'all just a bunch of jealous-ass haters who mad cuz you ain't got my talent, my money, or my booty. Bye"

If it's good enough for Youtube, it's good enough for real life, amiright?


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2014)

Let Gary be a lesson to you all - NEVER pick up a Leica!


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## runnah (Nov 12, 2014)

I cut Gary a lot of slack. To be fair England only discovered humor in the mid to late 1960's, and like all new inventions it takes a while to settle in.


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## gsgary (Nov 12, 2014)

Who in their right mind would beg to shoot for free
 Just making sure


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## astroNikon (Nov 12, 2014)

runnah said:


> I cut Gary a lot of slack. To be fair England only discovered humor in the mid to late 1960's, and like all new inventions it takes a while to settle in.


I thought it was Benny Hill's and Monty Python's fault ??


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## bratkinson (Nov 13, 2014)

In reading this thread, I think I have 'the' solution...

If they want ALL the photos, give them to them on a CD...RAW format only.  They'll LOVE 23MB files (and larger) per picture!  Process THAT with a 1.2 ghz processor and 2gb RAM.  Provide only the good enough shots as JPGs or printed.  Let them figure out what they have to do with the RAW files.

Note I said on CD.  I've 'lost' perhaps 6-8 USB thumb drives over the years providing pictures or whatever else on them and they were never returned.  Fortunately, I still have a number of 4gb thumb drives available to 'lose'.  As far as giving them the CF card or SD card, they are too expensive (when I bought them) and too fragile (I've bent pins on 2 CF cards and one internal card reader, and I'm exceedingly careful inserting them (in my mind)).  Copy them to CDs and you're out $.25 each, including paper sleeve.


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## astroNikon (Nov 13, 2014)

bratkinson said:


> In reading this thread, I think I have 'the' solution...
> 
> If they want ALL the photos, give them to them on a CD...RAW format only.  They'll LOVE 23MB files (and larger) per picture!  Process THAT with a 1.2 ghz processor and 2gb RAM.  Provide only the good enough shots as JPGs or printed.  Let them figure out what they have to do with the RAW files.
> 
> Note I said on CD.  I've 'lost' perhaps 6-8 USB thumb drives over the years providing pictures or whatever else on them and they were never returned.  Fortunately, I still have a number of 4gb thumb drives available to 'lose'.  As far as giving them the CF card or SD card, they are too expensive (when I bought them) and too fragile (I've bent pins on 2 CF cards and one internal card reader, and I'm exceedingly careful inserting them (in my mind)).  Copy them to CDs and you're out $.25 each, including paper sleeve.


Great idea !!
Better yet, use 5.25 inch floppies SD/SS


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## mmaria (Nov 13, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Better yet, use 5.25 inch floppies SD/SS


what's that!?


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## goooner (Nov 13, 2014)

mmaria said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > Better yet, use 5.25 inch floppies SD/SS
> ...


Was the 'precursor' to the 3,5 inch stiffies


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## KenC (Nov 13, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Better yet, use 5.25 inch floppies SD/SS



No, go all the way back and use tapes


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## bribrius (Nov 13, 2014)

Rick50 said:


> Boy, this whole thread is why I refuse to get into the business side of photography. I don't need a job. I do it because I enjoy it.
> I'm retired now but still do work for clients as an Electronics Consultant.* It's much easier to interface with business people in some ways as they already know how it works*. As an old boss once said "People are just no damn good!".


 Agreed. And too take this to the next level. what usually occurs is we actually have two sides, neither familiar with a business type transaction (or even a transfer of goods and services) other than buying something off the shelf in a store. So they enter into this type of agreement (pro bono or pay) and neither side really has the experience or mentality to comprehend what they are engaging in.
From a business mindset this is a simple cut and dry activity. When you have a artist and primary consumer behind the camera and a consumer in front of the camera too it becomes a problem.


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## tirediron (Nov 13, 2014)

KenC said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > Better yet, use 5.25 inch floppies SD/SS
> ...


 Punch cards, FTW!


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## KenC (Nov 13, 2014)

tirediron said:


> KenC said:
> 
> 
> > astroNikon said:
> ...



Unfortunately, I must admit that I remember when people used to carry boxes of those for a program you could probably run on a phone now.


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## astroNikon (Nov 13, 2014)

KenC said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > KenC said:
> ...


more likely on a $1.00 calculator.


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## marineangel (Nov 13, 2014)

A couple years ago I had a photographer come and take photos at my son's first birthday which was duly my daughters 16th. She provided  us with lots of photos and I was ecstatic.  Loved them all. Each one wasn't a photograph.  Some just pictures. That's what I wanted. About a year later before I started really getting into this we had a photographer take photos of "the grandkids" 8 of them teen to infant. She got some great shots, but my sister and I both said to each other that we thought there would be more. Looking back now that I have done just a few shoots I am more impressed by what she accomplished. 
My point being she may not have meant to be rude.  And your simple response was all she needed to hear. I come out of a shoot saying "I'm sure we got a couple good ones" then you have more than a couple they are happy.


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## bratkinson (Nov 14, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> KenC said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...


 
Actually, I -DO- go back to my mainframe days when all there was were punch cards and 556 bpi tape.  80 columns per card and a full reel of 556 bpi tape held less than a cassette tape used by my VIC 20 twenty years later.  Hard drives?  As I recall, the earliest removable disk-pack drives I used were about 2 meg of storage, and were reserved for the operating system only, and not much more (IBM 1620 computer, for those interested).

The IBM 360/40 I was using 5 years later is a slowpoke 'toy' compared to the $19.95 Timex watch on my wrist these days!


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## sashbar (Nov 14, 2014)

When you offer it for free, your client (probably rightly so) thinks it is you who needs it most. He may thnk he has agreed to waste some of his time to let you practice. In return he expects at least a lot of photos. When he gets a couple, he feels cheated. I once offered to do it for free, shot a lot of frames and got one excellent shot. I had it printed and they were extremely happy, I had a great evening in a restaurant on them. But I still consider I got away with it: that one shot was really really good, but the rest was ***t.  Since then I never ask for a free photo session


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