# What happens if you buy pirated software...



## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok. I see the other thread was closed before I could put my reply and I'm afraid I'm going to be fairly lengthy....

When I was in college in the 1980s/1990s even my college was pirating software. I remember they threw a fit when the discovered I'd copied their pirated software. I recall being threatened with expulsion and all I had to say was "fine. I'll pass this to the company" and the threat was rescinded. They tried all manner of bribes but for that year I was untouchable. They did wrong and knew they were doing wrong which is an attitude that to this day still baffles me. 

Some friends of mine bought pirated software. I recall seeing it and how awful it was. One friend had a pirated version of Windows 2000 that came with all manner of viruses. Another had a pirated version of Norton Utilities and that had its fair share of problems - notably that all the menus were screwed up.

Now let's move on to my software...

I used to write shareware. I would write some then put it online and watch people trying it. I wrote a ton of software and put it online. I did my best and put keylocks into it and all sorts of things. It didn't do much good. Software I'd taken months to write would be cracked and the crack would be freely available as would cracked versions within a week or two of my releasing the software. Basically things got so bad I had to give up writing software. That was my job - it's what put clothes on my back and food in my belly. I had to turn to fixing computers instead of writing software as fixing computers made money. Writing software was useless as it all got pirated. Once it was pirated I made no money because everybody used the pirated version. I hated fixing computers!

Let's move on a bit now. After I moved to the US, I took a job fixing computers with a local mom & pop shop. They used a lot of Linux utilities which was fine. What was not so good was that the owner wanted all his staff to use and install a cracked copy of Nod 32 antivirus and to use cracked registry-fixing software (can't remember which one now but I know the guy who wrote it is in Romania). I challenged him on this and he said "I prefer not to think of it as cracked. I prefer to think of it as activated". Needless to say next payday I slapped my resignation on his desk. I did contact all the bodies interested in software piracy and the software authors but as the authors were in other countries they could do little. I never heard back from the bodies interested in software piracy. I rather suspect my reports were quietly filed and forgotten.

I don't use pirated software. I don't particularly feel like buying a copy of the latest photoshop so I stick with Photoshop Elements 2 that came with my Nikon 3100 several years ago and DPP that came with my 30D. I can't recommend any of the free software - I tried it and it was awful (the gimp). I could buy more software but most of the windows software I've tried has been so awful that I'm just not buying any until I get my Mac. As for my business software - I use Open Office which is free and for the internet Mozilla and Firefox.

I have seen piracy from both sides. I have wanted software that I haven't been able to afford and have simply got by without it. I certainly don't feel that Photoshop CS is worth the money that Adobe is charging BUT you have to remember that every copy that Adobe sells pays for 10 pirated copies. They have to make their money somewhere. If there were no software piracy, software would be a fraction of its current price.

What can you do as an honest human being? Simple... buy the software you actually use and report anybody you see using pirated software. It's possible to report most piracy anonymously BUT there's a greater chance of the guy being convicted if you're willing to testify. Make a stand!


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## nicfargo (Feb 8, 2008)

I agree that piracy is not a good thing...I don't like doing it myself.  I think businesses using pirated software should be fined.  However, students just trying to learn the software I feel a little more ok with.  When they start making money off of it they should pay for it...but until then I think there should be student licenses.  Students can't afford programs like CS3, Mya, etc.  We shouldn't hold back learning something just because the software in a commercial sense is so God-awful expensive.


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## Big Mike (Feb 8, 2008)

> I agree that piracy is not a good thing...I don't like doing it myself. I think businesses using pirated software should be fined. However, students just trying to learn the software I feel a little more ok with. When they start making money off of it they should pay for it...but until then I think there should be student licenses. Students can't afford programs like CS3, Mya, etc. We shouldn't hold back learning something just because the software in a commercial sense is so God-awful expensive.


Adobe is particularly aware of students and they have student versions of their software.  The discounts are often quite large.  In some cases, it's actually cheaper to buy a student version and then the professional upgrade...than to just buy the full version.  Of course, this hinges on you actually being a student.

Also, there are other ways to legally get discounts.  I bought a Wacom Tablet that came with a coupon for $250 or $300 off of Photoshop.


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## Chris of Arabia (Feb 8, 2008)

I've got an ad in my inbox now offering 50% off the full price of CS3 - the ad was courtesy of being a registered user of Elements 5.0


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## eravedesigns (Feb 8, 2008)

I think its ok for individuals to pirate software because for most people they are just doing a hobby and trying to get better but I agree that if you are profiting and substantial amount you should pay for a license.


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

eravedesigns said:


> I think its ok for individuals to pirate software because for most people they are just doing a hobby and trying to get better but I agree that if you are profiting and substantial amount you should pay for a license.



That's the same as saying it's OK for poor people to rob banks because they need money to buy food!


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## Antithesis (Feb 8, 2008)

Big Mike said:


> Adobe is particularly aware of students and they have student versions of their software.  The discounts are often quite large.  In some cases, it's actually cheaper to buy a student version and then the professional upgrade...than to just buy the full version.  Of course, this hinges on you actually being a student.
> 
> Also, there are other ways to legally get discounts.  I bought a Wacom Tablet that came with a coupon for $250 or $300 off of Photoshop.



Photoshop CS3 is about $300 for a student, which is substantially cheaper than for a non-student. However; $300 is about a whole term worth of ramen noodles, wonder bread, and government cheese, so for a starving college student, $300 goes a long way. That certainly makes pirated software look pretty appetizing for a college student. 

On a different note, I have a cousin who was just sentenced to 4 years in the state pen. for selling pirated software. I actually didn't know him all that well, all I know is he seemed like a pretty upstanding guy and then I heard through the grapevine that he's doing pretty hard time. I think if your profiting off of the hard work and millions in R&D that somebody else has had to put in, then you deserve to go to "Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison", but if your a student who can barely afford to eat, there should be something a little more accessible. It's pretty hard to work full-time and take over 16 credits a term, of not impossible.


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## sabbath999 (Feb 8, 2008)

Using pirated software is no different than using cameras stolen off of the Nikon or Canon factory loading docks.

No different whatever.


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## Big Mike (Feb 8, 2008)

Also, students should have access to software...at their school.  If you are taking a Photoshop class, then you should have a classroom with computers and registered education versions of the software.  

A lot of students my want their own versions of software for their own computers...but that's a privilege, not a right.


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

Big Mike said:


> Also, students should have access to software...at their school.  If you are taking a Photoshop class, then you should have a classroom with computers and registered education versions of the software.
> 
> A lot of students my want their own versions of software for their own computers...but that's a privilege, not a right.



Exactly - every course I have ever done has allowed me access to computers owned by each institution in which I was a student. I had computer access in my college, my Institute of Higher Education, my university and when I was at a distance-learning university they even had computers one could borrow for the year!

Software piracy is theft. Theft, like rape or murder is a crime!


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## patrickt (Feb 8, 2008)

I not only buy my photo editing software but I've bought my camera and lenses, too.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 8, 2008)

eravedesigns said:


> I think its ok for individuals to pirate software because for most people they are just doing a hobby and trying to get better but I agree that if you are profiting and substantial amount you should pay for a license.



May I borrow your car? I just want to ride around and I promise not to use it as a taxi.


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## Bobby Ironsights (Feb 8, 2008)

Rhys said:


> Software piracy is theft. Theft, like rape or murder is a crime!


 
Uh.....huh.:greenpbl:

Spitting on the sidewalk, like rape or murder is a crime!
Littering, like rape or murder is a crime!
Jaywalking, like rape or murder is a crime!

Chewing Gum, like rape or murder, is a crime! (in singapore)


I'm not saying I agree with breaking copyright, but lets keep things in perspective. Business laws are meant to promote the good functioning of the economy, and they all serve a purpose. They have both positive and negative effects on aforesaid Macro and Microeconomic conditions in our society.


Murder, and Rape, are ghastly and gruesome crimes. It's seems ludicrous to me for anyone to try and draw direct comparisons between stomach-turning violence and software piracy. 

I understand why advertisers and advocacy groups do it....they're paid to say silly things. I just don't know why a real person would buy into it in real life.


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## Drake (Feb 8, 2008)

Yeah, I support legal software, but reporting people... well... nope. No way I am gonna do that.

And speaking of Photoshop, one of the biggest Polish software distributors has recently made a deal with Adobe and now they are selling Photoshop CS3 Extended for students for just (and I am not joking) about $70. Of course the software may not be used for professional work but hey, it costs 'a bit' less than the ordinary extended version - about $1500 here.


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## Big Mike (Feb 8, 2008)

Sadly enough (from what I've heard), the punishment for software crime is often just as severe as that for the more heinous crimes.

I'm sure that nobody hear means to say that stealing software is as bad as rape or murder...just they are all criminal and wrong.


Lets not let this thread degrade into an argument.  I think the points have been made.


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

The problem is that people say they know it's a crime to steal software. They then go ahead and do it anyway. I suspect the difference is that if nobody knows, they can get away with it too often. It does not take much moral fiber to stand up and say "henceforth I shall not pirate software" yet few will do that. It's like driving - there are one-way streets and in the dark when nobody's around is it wrong to drive the wrong way?

Essentially, like photocopying sheet music, books, maps etc this part of law is much more dependent on people being able to police themselves; dependent upon their sense of fair play. Sadly - as we too often see in sporting competitions, the players aren't universally all that sporting.

I have no problem reporting thieves.


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## gendarmee (Feb 8, 2008)

Bobby Ironsights said:


> Murder, and Rape, are ghastly and gruesome crimes. It's seems ludicrous to me for anyone to try and draw direct comparisons between stomach-turning violence and software piracy.
> 
> I understand why advertisers and advocacy groups do it....they're paid to say silly things. I just don't know why a real person would buy into it in real life.



 It's more like stealing some ones work or a job rather.

I stick to free ware as much as i can.
I have a version of PS that came with the camera or use PS CS3 on friends comp for trying out stuff.

Buying CS3 is **** expensive though.phenominal cost.
Here,I can get 2 Extreme config Desktop computers with DDR3 RAM instead, or a Nikon D300!
Wish it were a little fairly priced, depending on how much one is going to profit from it.
I still like the idea of freeware, IMO they can go about it this way in the future, they can have a free version with a decent amount of functions and the professional functions should come as updates only after buying the s/w. 
This would curb piracy too a great extent, the user id and code can be verified while the updates are downloaded....some thing like kaspersky antivirus..


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## Mesoam (Feb 8, 2008)

i'm sorry but if you are paying for pirated software you clearly aren't doing something right...


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## eravedesigns (Feb 8, 2008)

blah


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## mrodgers (Feb 8, 2008)

A bit of a different look at piracy.  Let's look at Microsoft Windows (hypothetically here).  This all assumes buying off-the-shelf systems that do NOT give you a Windows CD, but gives you a "recovery" CD.  

You purchase a computer in 1995.  With that purchase price you received a paid and registered version of Windows 95.  A while goes by and something happens to the computer.  You have no idea what could be wrong and figure it's time to buy a new one.  Not understanding that components can be reused that aren't bad, you throw that computer away and purchase another computer, again with Windows 95 on it.  Guess what you just did?  You just paid a 2nd time for a product that you had already paid for.

Now, the next computer you buy has the new Windows 98 on it.  You have paid with the purchase price of the computer, a registered version of Win98.  Again, this computer goes bad, but you know now that you can save components out of it.  So, you save the hard drive, CD burner, ect, and you buy another computer, but you don't get the CD drive, maybe you skimp on RAM because you can add your old ram, etc.  But, since you are scared to death about actually building from the ground up, you are buying off-the-shelf again.  You pull the cd drive and replace with your cd burner, add the hard drive as a 2nd hard drive.  Your buddy is needing a plain CD drive, so you just give him the one you remove.

A while goes by and you have a problem.  It's not a hardware problem, it just needs Windows reinstalled.  No problem, right?  You stick the recovery CD in that has Windows 98 that you've paid twice for in the drive and....... "The hardware does not match the original configuration, you can not reinstall Windows."  Huh?  Now what?  You ask your buddy to borrow the CD drive because your burner is what is giving you the error.  Nope, that drive broke so you buddy just tossed it in the trash.  What's your option now?  I guess the option is to go out and pay a 3RD TIME for the SAME SOFTWARE!

This has happened to me.  I've been through 2 computers and have paid twice for Windows 95.  I received an old computer with Windows 98 on it.  The person I got the Win98 PC from bought a new one that had XP.  I swapped the cd drive out for my burner that I had from my old computer and now I can not reinstall Windows on it because the hardware does not match.  What did I do?  Of course, I have a pirated copy of Win98 for that old machine.

-----

The second part of some thoughts.  The software companies, music companies, and movie companies love to spout how they are loosing money from piracy.  Actually, the majority of those who do pirate copies of these products never have the intention of purchasing in the first place.  How can they be loosing money on something they would not be making a sale on in the first place?


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

I never had that problem. My first machine came with an plain Windows 95 CD. My next machine I built from scratch and bought an XP CD.


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## MACollum (Feb 8, 2008)

When my motherboard went out we thought that I was going to have to buy another copy of Windows because all I had was a recovery CD. Luckily all I had to do was call Microsoft (when it wanted an activation number due to hardware incompatibility) and they gave me an activation number.

I'd have been been ticked off if I'd had to buy another copy of Windows.


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## Stranger (Feb 8, 2008)

I do not have a problem with pirated software for personal use. I know a guy who pirated Flash in order to learn it and make sure it was something he wanted to pursuit. After scoring a few webdesign jobs off of flash, he used the income to buy a copy.

I started using photoshop back with PS 6.. I was in grade school at this time and talked my mom into buying me PSP 7 (i want to say). I didnt like the program at all. But of course it was $100 so its not like i would say something. I then got a copy of PS6 and jumped boat and never looked back. At that age, starting off it graphic design was near impossible without friends to get software.


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## usayit (Feb 8, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> You purchase a computer in 1995.  With that purchase price you received a paid and registered version of Windows 95.  A while goes by and something happens to the computer.  You have no idea what could be wrong and figure it's time to buy a new one.  Not understanding that components can be reused that aren't bad, you throw that computer away and purchase another computer, again with Windows 95 on it.  Guess what you just did?  You just paid a 2nd time for a product that you had already paid for.



In general, the licenses that are delivered with a pre-built computer is a license for the O/S on that PARTICULAR machine.   Dell, emachines, and the like usually end up putting these license stickers on the machines themselves.  This package deal is provided to the consumer by a pre-established agreement between the software vendor and the vendor of the PC hardware.  Usually the cost of the license is at a reduced cost to both the hardware vendor and consumer.... but the idea is that the license is for that O/S on THAT machine.  This is different from a license of windows which is purchased in a box from a store.  You are purchasing a license to use that software (on a single machine of your choosing).  

It is a marketing plan to help drive both hardware and software sales.. together.  For example,  more consumers DO NOT purchase the latest release of Windows from a store.  Instead, consumers usually obtain the latest release of Windows via the purchase of a new computer.

So no.. you are completely wrong about purchasing the 2nd license each time you purchase a new computer.  COMPLETELY WRONG.  What you are purchasing is the right to use Windows license A with computer A.. then at a later time Windows license B with computer B.  Only a license that was purchased fully from a store (boxed) is a license to run on machine A, B, C, ... Z.  

Read your license agreement... Box license != packaged license.  Pretty much the rest of your post is moot.



> The second part of some thoughts.  The software companies, music companies, and movie companies love to spout how they are loosing money from piracy.  Actually, the majority of those who do pirate copies of these products never have the intention of purchasing in the first place.  How can they be loosing money on something they would not be making a sale on in the first place?



Stupid B.S. logic always thrown in whenever this topic comes up....   If this is your intention stick to shareware....  That statement has never been proven... In fact, the most pirated software in the industry is entertainment (gaming software).  Most if not all are for the most part affordable... just too damn cheap to buy them.  Most are played and shelved....  thus never intended to purchase.  Still count too?  Guess game programming, which involves team of 10s sometimes 100s, of rather difficult topics (game design, 3d mathematical engines, graphics designers, high end real time programming) don't deserve their share.   

If I point a loaded gun at your noggin even though I have no intention not to pull the trigger.. would you care?


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

The cost of producing games and O/Ss is astronomical. It takes years and there are teams of many people. When you get many people you need managers, administrators plus offices and other overheads. Then particularly when you're looking at games you have a very limited shelf life before the game becomes so yesterday. People that pirate never look at the whole picture. 

For economy I always recommend buying a new O/S with your new computer but I recommend buying the two separately. Let me give an example of a problem caused by a computer sold with an OS installed...

My Sister-in-law had a computer. It came with XP installed. Somehow that copy got corrupted then somebody trying to fix it loaded Windows 98 on top. I tried my best to recover the original OS but it was impossible. The recovery CD would not work with the system. In the end my sister-in-law had to buy a new OS. Thus I always recommend scrubbing pre-installed O/Ss and installing them yourself. My Compaq laptop came with the whole OS on a CD which is great because I needed to reformat and reinstall as soon as I bought it due to some wierd corruption with the wifi that nobody could resolve. As I have an OS CD I'm unlikely to need to buy an OS CD but I could be unlucky at some point.

Meanwhile, anybody noticed how long Vista took to develop? Or XP? It took years and hundreds of programmers. Don't they deserve to eat? 

OK. Let's look at Bill Gates - he is the father of the modern computer and indeed of modern business. Without him it is unlikely that you would be sitting, using a PC. His team brought you Windows. His buddy brought you OSX. Linux would never have existed had Linus Torvalds not had an MSDOS based PC in front of him. The PC exists because of Bill Gates. Before that everybody used things like the Commodore PET or linked up to a mainframe. 

Bill Gates has had to fight thieves all his life - this is why Windows is so expensive. Every copy purchased has to pay for every copy pirated. Putting Windows on computers pre-sale is just about the only way he can make sure that people don't just buy a PC and then put a pirated OS. Yes it is anticompetitive but what other choice has he? 

Piracy drove us to product keys then to online product key activation and the battle has not been won yet. It's rather like the war on terror. We all need to pull our weight in order that as a civilisation we can all move forward.

Every act of piracy reduces the income of the software house. That has a knock on for software R&D. You want Photoshop 21 so you must pay for Photoshop 9 rather than get one from a dodgy guy on a street corner with a bunch of them tucked under his dirty raincoat. It's fine to use a legitimately obtained Photoshop 2 until the end of time - if that's all you want. 

All I'm calling for is fair play. Fair pay for a fair day's work. Would you like people to take your images and use them commercially without paying, claiming that you sell so many you won't notice one missed sale? Then a lot of people saying the same thing?


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## Rhys (Feb 8, 2008)

I really don't know how to make my message any clearer.


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## Chris of Arabia (Feb 9, 2008)

Gents,

Not too sure that posting a picture of others members without their consent is such a good idea. Report it to the Mods and leave it at that if you have a concern.


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## patrickt (Feb 9, 2008)

Here's an example that might be closer to home. Suppose you take a great photo and sell it to someone for $100. A month later you learn that your customer had prints made and had given them to 23 friends and was selling them at a flea market. Any problem with pirated photos?


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## AlexParlett (Feb 9, 2008)

On the windows front, i was very lucky, work gave me and Xp Pro disk, with unlimited license use, so ive never had a problem with OS, weve always had full copies (supplied with a new pc or via work) of 95, 98, 2000 and XP, unfortunately, my latest only came with a recovery disk of vista, but wiped it for Xp anyway, i dont think vista is ready.

However, on the student from, i think that it is limited on software, i agree that yes you have the software supplied at your place of study, however, you dont do all your work there, you are set work that you may need to do on your own time and cant get at the supplied PCs. A good work around would be a license that lasts the duration of your course and then runs out.

On pirated front, i dont agree with it, but i also dont agree with the high prices, however everything is supplied with full licenses to me by work so ive never come to the problem of having to decide about it.


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## easily_amused (Feb 9, 2008)

People who steal software can't be too bright in the first place.

Ever hear if Trojan horses? Viruses?  other nasties that can be packaged along with that wonderful 'free' software?

People will eventually get what they deserve.


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## usayit (Feb 9, 2008)

AlexParlett said:


> On pirated front, i dont agree with it, but i also dont agree with the high prices,



Software piracy does drive software prices up.


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## Corry (Feb 9, 2008)

1) TPF does not condone piracy.  If you're gonna do it, don't be dumb enough to talk about it here.  

2) TPF will not tolerate 'outing' another person by posting thier personal information, regardless of what they've done.  

If either of the above are continued, corrective action will be ensued.  

In other words, knock it off.


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## Rhys (Feb 9, 2008)

easily_amused said:


> People who steal software can't be too bright in the first place.
> 
> Ever hear if Trojan horses? Viruses?  other nasties that can be packaged along with that wonderful 'free' software?
> 
> People will eventually get what they deserve.



I notice that the vast majority of pirates fall into two categories...

1. Young people who don't realise the damage they are doing. Their argument goes something like: I'd never buy this anyway so I'll use an illicit copy (in so doing they void that argument) or they say "it's just me - what harm can there be". Try telling that to somebody who's lost their job or career because of piracy.

2. People who think they're too clever; people like my old boss who thought that by using software pinched from an overseas supplier that piracy laws don't affect them. He lost a damned good computer technician over that! Also, I understand now that he can only attract the kind of employee that you wouldn't want to employ. This is the same guy that before I worked for him, wanted to charge me $90 for an 128mb stick of PC 133 RAM for a Dell 4300S. I later bought 128mb on ebay for 1 cent. I didn't pay his price!

There are other minor categories such as people that say "I'll buy it after I've tried" it but who never stop "trying" it or people who say "I can't afford it so I'll use a pirated copy". The latter kind of person will never ever be able to afford it because they're just too cheap to save up for it.

It would be nice to believe that people get what they deserve in the end. The sad fact is that many people just get away with it and keep getting away with it. Sometimes they get nailed years later. Often they just get away with it forever. It is the duty of the rest of us as a society to look after each other and each other's best interests. If you see an old lady being mugged, do you ignore it and pass by or do you try somehow to help either by intervening physically or by summoning assistance to intervene. It is the same with piracy - you have to (if you wish to live in a civilised society) report it. Every unreported act of piracy degrades society until bit by bit no laws are obeyed. This is what zero tolerance is about - you want the streets to be safe at night you have to have zero tolerance. You want cheap software then you have to have zero tolerance.


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## AlexParlett (Feb 9, 2008)

Unfortunately, what you just said about the old lady being mugged, the sad fact is yes, people will. The majority of human beings are hardly altruistic at all. There are several OTT examples, i could state if you want. Its the sad state of humanity, thats its "I" not "Us", at least in general terms.

The majority of people will be altruistic to their friends and family, as long as they percieve that it will not endanger them to a high degree. Yet will not be altruistic to a stranger they meet simply because they have no empathy with that person.

Check around the net for altruism-empthay psychological theories, there are a load of case studies on it...

Anyway, back on topic, same will go on about pirated software, most people will ignore it, because they dont see as it helping them, or will put them in "danger", i use the term danger because honestly i dont quite know what situations could arise, it would depend on the circumstances.


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## usayit (Feb 9, 2008)

Our society doesn't reward selfless altruistic actions.... in fact.. it deters it to the point that people just don't want to be involved.

Much like the slap on the wrist for "outing" someone...


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## am_photoer (Feb 9, 2008)

Maybe if there was such a thing as a 'selfless' act... _rationally_, 'outing' one person who is at the bottom of the chain does not do anything but cause harm to that person.  That doesn't sound very 'moral'.  So, in the scope of it all and not your personal 'war' an action that does only harm... good job.


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## Arch (Feb 9, 2008)

:roll: keep it civil.


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## usayit (Feb 9, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> Maybe if there was such a thing as a 'selfless' act... _rationally_, 'outing' one person who is at the bottom of the chain does not do anything but cause harm to that person.  That doesn't sound very 'moral'.  So, in the scope of it all and not your personal 'war' an action that does only harm... good job.



And the petty thief that shoplifts (who is at the bottom of the chain) also doesn't deserve to be arrested...

And the police officer who arrests this petty thief is immoral (I'll leave your original term out) because he is just causing harm to that one person...

Sounds like good logic there.... you represent your generation well.


I grew up before computers were popular and theft was just that theft.. no if ands or buts.  For some unknown reason, people  now seem to think that software piracy doesn't fall into that category due to the fact that it is intangible and so easy to copy.  Companies trying to protect their interests are the "evil" empire.... when it is they that provide the products to begin with....


Give it up man...  you are talking to a well connected person in the software industry that has seen the direct result of software piracy.   You can spin this anyway you feel... it just doesn't make it right.


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## peterbj7 (Feb 9, 2008)

I've used pirated software several times to see whether I liked it enough to buy it.  In every case, if I decided to keep it I bought it (new).  Pirated software doesn't stay on my computer.  Nor does functional shareware that I decide not to keep.

Many companies in Britain have a simple "instant dismissal" policy if illicit software is found on any machine used at work by an employee, regardless of whether the machine belongs to the companyor the individual.  That's instant dismissal and a call to the police.

I bought CS2 but I still haven't worked out how to use it!


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## Rhys (Feb 9, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> Maybe if there was such a thing as a 'selfless' act... _rationally_, 'outing' one person who is at the bottom of the chain does not do anything but cause harm to that person.  That doesn't sound very 'moral'.  So, in the scope of it all and not your personal 'war' an action that does only harm... good job.



I always thought that arresting a criminal was a  rather good thing as:

1. There is an element of deterrance - once arrested and convicted they might not re-offend.
2. There is an element of rehabilitation - we do try to rehabilitate criminals even though it might not work or be very effective so that they don't re-offend.
3. A criminal in jail gives society a break from them for a while.

We have to look positively on jail. It can stop people from re-offending and its very presence reminds people not to offend in the first place.

Interestingly, most criminals actually grow out of crime. Studies have shown that most criminals grow out of crime by the time they're 25 and that only a very small percentage of people over 25 commence lives of crime.


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## am_photoer (Feb 9, 2008)

Sure -- in a single case this works.  But once the patterns build up there must be reaction to the direct cause.

The problem is of going after the 'user's of illegal dealings and not the causes.  It is this mentality that has led to greatest number of people in jail in America than any other country.  The drug war is evidence that going after the users will only cause mishap -- the jails drain the economy and just keep getting fuller.  The system is flawed and the target should be the cause. -but as long as joe schmo gets his punishment you'll be happy -- ignoring all the root issues and patterns


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## jstuedle (Feb 9, 2008)

Today we live in a time where Software piracy, music piracy, image copyright infringement, speeding 5 or 9 over the limit, walking across the boarder, and several other illegal acts that come to mind are tolerated or outwardly accepted. They all are forms of theft, and they all take jobs away from those who need them. These issues seem to have really florished in the last 15-20 years in my opinion. As have the general decline in the morals of our society. Any way we look at it, breaking the law is just that. No more, no less. Today most of us don't want to debate or even hear about either or, or black and white when it comes to illegal acts. We don't want to be responsible for our actions when it comes to right and wrong, we keep pushing the limits. Several responses here have made excuses for the outright abandonment of the rule of law. As time goes on I only see the problems getting worse as we continue to make excuses or feel sorry for this or that person or situation. Times have changed and not for the better IMO. Someday it will come to a head, or we will find ourselves in a society that has failed itself.

I now step down from my soapbox.


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## jstuedle (Feb 9, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> Sure -- in a single case this works.  But once the patterns build up there must be reaction to the direct cause.
> 
> The problem is of going after the 'user's of illegal dealings and not the causes.  It is this mentality that has led to greatest number of people in jail in America than any other country.  The drug war is evidence that going after the users will only cause mishap -- the jails drain the economy and just keep getting fuller.  The system is flawed and the target should be the cause. -but as long as joe schmo gets his punishment you'll be happy -- ignoring all the root issues and patterns




And what is the root cause that makes it OK to steal from another? Simple question, I'll enjoy seeing your response.


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## usayit (Feb 9, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> The problem is of going after the 'user's of illegal dealings and not the causes.  It is this mentality that has led to greatest number of people in jail in America than any other country.  The drug war is evidence that going after the users will only cause mishap -- the jails drain the economy and just keep getting fuller.  The system is flawed and the target should be the cause. -but as long as joe schmo gets his punishment you'll be happy -- ignoring all the root issues and patterns



Sure...  but in the end.. its still illegal to be in possession (drugs or pirated software).  Until you get that law changed, the law must be enforced regardless...   What you are doing is choosing which laws should be enforced according to your own measure and morals.  I don't agree and in return you call me an a__.  That in of itself show just how much you don't understand.  Well here's a lesson... LAW and MORALITY don't live together... period.  Nor does LAW give two cents about what you think.  Nor do you have any right to pass judgement (or call names) to any individual who does take action when illegal activity is observed.

I for one don't believe in the strict control of prostitution, attempts to raise the level of gun control, and believe we are going it all wrong when it comes to drugs.  In the end... I am to live by the laws regardless of my personal feelings.

Your entire post is a DEFLECTION of the true issue here.  Illegal software is just plain wrong... it doesn't matter if it is the main distributer of piracy.. it doesn't matter if it is the bottom feeder user.  You can spin it anyway you want.. its illegal.. and wrong...

I was more than happy to discuss this topic without passing judgement on anyone.  It was exactly what was happening but "that user" chose to post a snide remark mocking anyone in this thread who took software piracy seriously.  That's when I took it personally..... essentially daring me.. and I took action.  Simple as that... I know nothing will come of my report, but the point is I reported him.


(btw.. Your initial response, before mod changed it, is a clear indication of your maturity level.)


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## kundalini (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm not sure exactly why my previous post was selected to be removed from this thread.  It was not blasphemous and only gave kudos to usayit for doing the right thing.  I am confused, can a MOD unconfuse me?


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## usayit (Feb 9, 2008)

I guess if there is no tolerance for "outing" someone... there is no tolerance for the kudos that results from it...

Does that mean my post count lost a few points? ... j/k


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## DSLR noob (Feb 9, 2008)

My uncle is leagaly giving me his old CS2 Adobe creative suite that he legally bought because he just legally bought the CS3 suite (only reason he didn't upgrade is because he bought the version he can put on 3 computers and put it on 3 of his 5). So he'd be legally transferring the payed for programs to me, is that a crime(or just a bad thing to do?) on my behalf for not buying it? I don't want to feel guilty, but that's a slew of programs that I could use. (I currently have photoshop CS2 and love it, but I've played with the rest of the suite and would love them too)


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## Iron Flatline (Feb 10, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> Sure -- in a single case this works.  But once the patterns build up there must be reaction to the direct cause.
> 
> The problem is of going after the 'user's of illegal dealings and not the causes.  It is this mentality that has led to greatest number of people in jail in America than any other country.  The drug war is evidence that going after the users will only cause mishap -- the jails drain the economy and just keep getting fuller.  The system is flawed and the target should be the cause. -but as long as joe schmo gets his punishment you'll be happy -- ignoring all the root issues and patterns


I disagree with you. America (more than Europe, but Europe as well) values personal liberties, and personal responsibility. It has become popular to say that a certain action is a symptom, but not the cause. Well, individual responsibility would go a long way toward solving certain problems, or at least going past fighting the symptom. Also, just because there are systemic problems does not give us the right to take advantage of them, or to ignore the rules of civility. An addict might not be able to stop, but a casual user can - and should.


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## leila (Feb 10, 2008)

eravedesigns said:


> I think its ok for individuals to pirate software because for most people they are just doing a hobby and trying to get better but I agree that if you are profiting and substantial amount you should pay for a license.



I agree.


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## Kawi_T (Feb 10, 2008)

jstuedle said:


> And what is the root cause that makes it OK to steal from another? Simple question, I'll enjoy seeing your response.


 

The love of money is the root of ALL evil.


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## Kawi_T (Feb 10, 2008)

I know a person (not me)  who works for a state agency that runs on pirated software.  absolutely horrible.


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## dipstick (Feb 10, 2008)

patrickt said:


> Here's an example that might be closer to home. Suppose you take a great photo and sell it to someone for $100. A month later you learn that your customer had prints made and had given them to 23 friends and was selling them at a flea market. Any problem with pirated photos?



Good point. If this tread was about someone stealing photos, I would like to see how many supported the attitude of "stealing is ok as long as you don't make money".

So I guess clients copying their family portraits and giving out to friends and family is not a problem as long as they give away the pirated copies for free.

come on...


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## ghpham (Feb 10, 2008)

how sad to see that there are people in this thread trying to justify software piracy.  Just pathetic.


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## Corry (Feb 10, 2008)

kundalini said:


> I'm not sure exactly why my previous post was selected to be removed from this thread.  It was not blasphemous and only gave kudos to usayit for doing the right thing.  I am confused, can a MOD unconfuse me?




You did nothing wrong, but only removing the offending posts and not the posts that referred to them left the thread very choppy and confusing.


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## AlexParlett (Feb 10, 2008)

Kawi_T said:


> The love of money is the root of ALL evil.


 

No its not, human egotism is the route of evil... Look at any other species on this planet, they do only what is necessary to survive. Yet we go above and beyond that into destruction, tearing the world apart because we dont believe we should suffer like other species in living with only what the enviroment provides, simply because we have the capacity to build the technologies we have. Im not knocking it, the way i live now, i wouldnt want to swap that for mud huts and fur, but its simply true.

However on the question of stealing, ill raise the old cliche... 
"youve been in an accident, you cant work, your family is starving... you can steal food and live, or you can not steal and die"

General idea on the law.
"You get a speeding ticket, because you were racing to hospital to save a dying person"

I dont use pirate software, but it does raise the issue that the law sees only in black and white, and the human race is made of shades of grey. Although saying that, i guess in the end, the courts slightly make up for that, but not fully. We dont have a functioning system of life or government anywhere in the world.


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## Iron Flatline (Feb 10, 2008)

Oh, come on. Most people here realize there's a difference between certain crimes. Speeding to save someone's life is an esoteric argument. There is a difference between saving a life and copying software. The point is that pirating intellectual property is theft. You can justify it all day long (the starving college student argument being the most tired one) or you can simply accept that it is lame. We are increasingly living in a world where IP is an integral part of our lives. It ranges from creative IP (photos, music, film) to technical (software and medication) to segment-specific. I'm working with some investment bankers who have a proprietary derivatives structure that they consider their IP - if someone copied the way they leverage and then trade certain assets, their livelihood would be undermined. 

The "starving student just trying it out" is for spoiled western rich kids used to getting whatever they want. If you can't afford it, you can't have it - whether you're profiting or not. Accept that. 

However, how long can a pharmaceutical company hold on to a life-saving patent when poor countries have dying people? Might the company have developed such a product if they thought it wouldn't be profitable, but rather appropriated by third parties? That's a far more interesting, timely, and relevant argument about IP.


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## jstuedle (Feb 10, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jstuedle*
> 
> 
> ...



Is this justification for theft, or a simple explanation/opinion for there reasons for theft? 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *eravedesigns*
> 
> 
> ...



You agree that it's OK to casually steal from others? Amazing.


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## usayit (Feb 10, 2008)

My god this is pathetic!

Started with my father's generation.. mine carried it along with not much thought... the generations afterward actually twisted it all up actually justifying their spoiled actions.  The me.. me. me.. me.. attitude that just won't go away.   Stories of what the previous generations accomplished puts us to shame...

You should be ashamed at even trying to justify theft..


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## AlexParlett (Feb 10, 2008)

Iron Flatline said:


> Oh, come on. Most people here realize there's a difference between certain crimes. Speeding to save someone's life is an esoteric argument. There is a difference between saving a life and copying software. The point is that pirating intellectual property is theft. You can justify it all day long (the starving college student argument being the most tired one) or you can simply accept that it is lame. We are increasingly living in a world where IP is an integral part of our lives. It ranges from creative IP (photos, music, film) to technical (software and medication) to segment-specific. I'm working with some investment bankers who have a proprietary derivatives structure that they consider their IP - if someone copied the way they leverage and then trade certain assets, their livelihood would be undermined.
> 
> However, how long can a pharmaceutical company hold on to a life-saving patent when poor countries have dying people? Might the company have developed such a product if they thought it wouldn't be profitable, but rather appropriated by third parties? That's a far more interesting, timely, and relevant argument about IP.


 
You are assuming im trying to justify theft, no where did i say i agreed with software pirating, i even in my previous post stated that i disagree with it, and have never done it. But its far too much bother for you to realise that and understand that i am not trying to justify theft but simply stating that things happen like that simply because the system of law and government we have is flawed. Also no where did i mention a starving student, i have no idea why you brought up that argument, and for all i can see it serves no use to your post.

You say all IP theft is wrong. Lets take your own example, the pharmaceutical company, it could raise the standard of living for the entire world, most certainly 3rd world countries, but they cannot afford the high prices, if someone went and "stole" that and gave it to the world for free, then how is that instance of theft lame. As long as they didnt claim the discovery as their own, and were only releasing it for altruistic reasons, i can find no fault with it. However if they claimed it as their own, you then start having the fault. Most human actions are teleological.


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## usayit (Feb 10, 2008)

AlexParlett said:


> You say all IP theft is wrong. Lets take your own example, the pharmaceutical company, it could raise the standard of living for the entire world, most certainly 3rd world countries, but they cannot afford the high prices, if someone went and "stole" that and gave it to the world for free, then how is that instance of theft lame. As long as they didnt claim the discovery as their own, and were only releasing it for altruistic reasons, i can find no fault with it. However if they claimed it as their own, you then start having the fault. Most human actions are teleological.



So what you are saying is that we should be a society that lives by "The Ends Justify The Means" mantra.  Good luck with that one.  You could write books on that screwed up logic.  (Anyone wanna bring up the theft and sale of human kidneys on the black market for discussion?  How about legalized mugging for those with income below the poverty line?)

We are talking software piracy here... not people's lives.  Wait... actually we are talking about people's lives... the lives and families that depend on that income software pirates just stole.


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## kundalini (Feb 10, 2008)

Corry said:


> You did nothing wrong, but only removing the offending posts and not the posts that referred to them left the thread very choppy and confusing.


Thanks for the explanation Corry.  It makes sense for the edit.


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## am_photoer (Feb 10, 2008)

This is really pessimistic, and for some reason the 'new' generation is bad while the 'old' generation was noble and good.  I'm sure nobody ever broke any laws before...

unless there is a solution to the cause of piracy then just punishing the users will not solve the problem.  If you want to ignore the societal issues than fine, but if there is a product that is out there for free it will be chosen more or less, morals here, over the product you buy.

but that won't happen - or anything.  And i doubt that this post will stop anybody from using pirated software.  So lets just all be moral little kids and never break the rules ever! 

(It is illegal to wear a bullet-proof vest while committing a murder.) like that law, heavens no don't break that one...


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## Rrr3319 (Feb 10, 2008)

just curious... those who can justify not purchasing software either because you can't afford it, you want to "test drive" it, because you aren't making a profit, etc...  if it wasn't so easy to get your hands on would you be willing to walk yourself into bestbuy or another retail store and steal all your software straight of the shelf, giving the store manager, police officers, judges, etc. your argument that it's ok because you've found proper rationalization?
with the computer age we now live in, it's much easier for people to commit crimes because it's easier to commit them (they don't even have to leave the house)  and easier for them to justify to themselves.  but stealing things on your computer is basically the same as going to the store and shoving a pile of cds and software into your jacket.  and while i have known some people who have told me they think it's ok to do, i really don't know how someone can tell themselves that.


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## jstuedle (Feb 10, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> This is really pessimistic, and for some reason the 'new' generation is bad while the 'old' generation was noble and good.  I'm sure nobody ever broke any laws before...
> 
> unless there is a solution to the cause of piracy then just punishing the users will not solve the problem.  If you want to ignore the societal issues than fine, but if there is a product that is out there for free it will be chosen more or less, morals here, over the product you buy.
> 
> ...



Let's break this down. 
1)"*My generation never broke laws*." We could expect to be pulled over for a tail light out or Jay-Walking or spitting on the side walk. There was a fine and most of us didn't do it. Were there thieves and when caught they went to jail. We didn't look the other way or snicker about it. We didn't condone it. This is really a lame argument for justifying theft of I.P. today. I am sure you can see the fallacy of this excuse. My generation had it's faults. the great society was one. This IMO was the start of thinking like yours. Something for nothing, that's were a big chunk of that mindset came from.

2) "*Punishing the users doesn't solve the problem*" If the pirates or pushers don't have a market, then they can't stay in business. Basic economics. And if the I.P. Owners can profit from all sales of there I.P. then prices will be competitive. Surly you can comprehend that basic principle.

Basically today we have a third world mindset where so many expect something for nothing and have there hand out. Only instead of bread and water its cash, and electronics. One day, if lucky these thieves and beggars will become productive members of society and see the light and THEIR I.P. being ripped off at every turn.


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## am_photoer (Feb 10, 2008)

1) you think your generation is so different... okay, and its funny that you couldn't spit on a sidewalk... don't question that because spitting on a side walk... would anger... the concrete god? (this is where you say how does ip theft compare to spitting ona sidewalk blah blah blah) 

:heart: so can you give me some cash and electronics now? I really want some! :heart: god wants everyone to have electronics! :hail: :hug::

Economically you can say that sure no public no product, in theory... but there is a public... so that theory isn't useful.  Get used to it that as long as there is property there is going to be theft. (can i have my morality pill), as long as i take that then i'm perfect (and go to church every sunday too because otherwise you will anger the church god) and can judge others

2. go take a picture and change the world


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## Corry (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm quite certain that it is perfectly possible to debate without being insulting and condescending.  

There is a lot to be said about a person who can remain civil in disagreement.  

Now, please do so.


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## usayit (Feb 10, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> 1) you think your generation is so different... okay, and its funny that you couldn't spit on a sidewalk... don't question that because spitting on a side walk... would anger... the concrete god? (this is where you say how does ip theft compare to spitting ona sidewalk blah blah blah)


 
It is this screwed up attitude that makes my generation (I presume the one after jstuedle's) and every generation afterwards so messed up.  I like to read a lot about history.. not politics.. not events...  just about people.  I have a VERY deep respect for the generations prior to mine... for their failures (we all have them) and their successes but also their sense.  


The answer is really simple.... it is written in our law books that software piracy is illegal.  It is ILLEGAL.... this is regardless of the debate of right, wrong, and morally correct.  IT IS ILLEGAL.  Until the laws are changed it is illegal!!!!  Not allowed.. not permitted.  The anti-piracy laws do not care whether you are student, hobbiest, rich, broke.....  It doesn't care whether or not you profit or don't profit.  

PERIOD. 

You can bring up all the scenarios and corner cases you want... the law explicit.  If you want to conjure up your own laws, you need to leave and start your own country.

You and everyone in this discussion have every right to voice our opinion but we are still to abide by the laws on the books.  No exception.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 10, 2008)

usayit said:


> It is this screwed up attitude that makes my generation (I presume the one after jstuedle's) and every generation afterwards so messed up.



I'm not certain that there is a generational difference as much as there is an age and maturity difference. Younger people are often very solipsistic; they haven't been away from mommy long enough to realize that they aren't the entire world and that other people do count for something. Kids are basically sociopaths toward things they don't understand.

When they get to the stage that they actually have worked to have something, and can't turn to the 'rents for a replacement, all of a sudden a switch goes off and they begin to understand.

I'd bet $20 that the average age of those who don't think that software piracy is OK is 15 years less than those who realize it's wrong.


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## jols (Feb 10, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> I'm not certain that there is a generational difference as much as there is an age and maturity difference. Younger people are often very solipsistic; they haven't been away from mommy long enough to realize that they aren't the entire world and that other people do count for something. Kids are basically sociopaths toward things they don't understand.
> 
> When they get to the stage that they actually have worked to have something, and can't turn to the 'rents for a replacement, all of a sudden a switch goes off and they begin to understand.
> 
> I'd bet $20 that the average age of those who don't think that software piracy is OK is 15 years less than those who realize it's wrong.


 

maybe    .............................or maybe not!


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## usayit (Feb 10, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> I'm not certain that there is a generational difference as much as there is an age and maturity difference.



Yes, I partly agree...  I am simplifying things quite a bit.  I could name a few factors that I personally believe are part of the problem... the biggest being Parenting (or the lack of it).  If you really examine the whole phenomenon, the vast changes on how an individual behaves and processes the events around them really do fall on generational lines.  Why??? because parenting itself falls on those same exact generational lines.  It is no coincidence that jstuedle's generation generally had 1 working parent per household and mine has more 2 working parents.  

Another is respect for authority (The eroding of Teacher and School officials authority to control the student population.. they are afraid of being lawsuits.. my wife is in this situation).  Yet another is Media and marketing and how it shapes the young mind (TV being the substitute delinquent parent when none are present).  

My brother and I are 14 years apart.  We are basically living in different generations even though we share the same parents.  I have had LONG LONG LONG discussions with my father (especially since recently becoming a father myself) of how different, more difficult, and more complicated it was raising my brother.  He explicitly mentions distractions of TV, electronics, cloths, cars, cell phones, computers, games.. etc.. all leading to the "Keeping up with the Joneses" mindset were simply not a factor in my upbringing.  I was more interested in the pursuit of interests.... my brother's generation were more interested in the pursuit of perceived material wealth.  My group of friends were perfectly happy working to earn cash to fix up that broken down car so we can enjoy the freedom of driving.  The younger generation have it programed in their mind that it is the parent's responsibility and their right to be provided a vehicle... not to mention a college education.



> I'd bet $20 that the average age of those who don't think that software piracy is OK is 15 years less than those who realize it's wrong.



I checked... its actually worse than you think.  A couple of those posting claim to be 20 or so.... which is very scary.


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## Rhys (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes... Personal responsibility. That's my big thing. I don't believe we should have laws forbidding lots of things. We should instead replace them with a crime of irresponsibility.

Many governments will ban lots of things when they are in fact not a problem but the problem lies with irresponsible people owning them. As an example, one government banned tasers (not exactly lethal) when they first came out because they were afraid of irresponsible people getting hold of them. Strangely they allow irresponsible people to drive cars.

Relating this to software theft or theft of intellectual property; this is the same as copyright violation (people using your photos without compensation); this is irresponsible because they have not paid attention to the reason the owner had the items for sale.


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## Iron Flatline (Feb 10, 2008)

AlexParlett said:


> You are assuming im trying to justify theft, no where did i say i agreed with software pirating, i even in my previous post stated that i disagree with it, and have never done it. But its far too much bother for you to realise that and understand that i am not trying to justify theft but simply stating that things happen like that simply because the system of law and government we have is flawed. Also no where did i mention a starving student, i have no idea why you brought up that argument, and for all i can see it serves no use to your post.
> 
> You say all IP theft is wrong. Lets take your own example, the pharmaceutical company, it could raise the standard of living for the entire world, most certainly 3rd world countries, but they cannot afford the high prices, if someone went and "stole" that and gave it to the world for free, then how is that instance of theft lame. As long as they didnt claim the discovery as their own, and were only releasing it for altruistic reasons, i can find no fault with it. However if they claimed it as their own, you then start having the fault. Most human actions are teleological.


Alex, I was responding to the thread and its participants as a whole, not just you. Posting right after you certainly makes it look like that though. It's inherent to this form of communication - it's not linear, but it's presented that way.

Where I did quote you, and to respond to your comments, I bring up the point of pharmaceutical IP as a good example of an interesting argument, not because I have an opinion on it. I am limiting my opinions to the actions of individuals, not states. It gets pretty wobbly and collegiate beyond a certain scope. Is a government appropriating a patent theft (as Brazil did regarding a certain inhibitor of AIDS-Related Complex)? Well, what if Guatemala decided to install 300,000 Win XP operating systems on Intel boxes to catch up with the Developed World? I have no opinion about theft at that level anymore, I just find it an interesting debate.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 10, 2008)

AlexParlett said:


> Lets take your own example, the pharmaceutical company, it could raise the standard of living for the entire world, most certainly 3rd world countries, but they cannot afford the high prices, if someone went and "stole" that and gave it to the world for free, then how is that instance of theft lame.
> 
> As long as they didnt claim the discovery as their own, and were only releasing it for altruistic reasons, i can find no fault with it. However if they claimed it as their own, you then start having the fault. Most human actions are teleological.



Appropriating information and giving it away, when the originator of the information wants to sell it, is theft. Drugs are merely a physical manifestation of that IP. This is a different question, whether the 'right' of a society to care for its citizens trumps the 'right' of the originator of the IP.

If you wrote a book entitled "English for native speakers of Chinese' and you wanted to sell the books on Amazon for $26 but the government of China, for example, decided to scan and disseminate the book electronically to 100 million students without payment to you, would you see that as theft?

Lew


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