# Leica III Krigsmarine



## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

Hello collectors  May I ask for some help?

I was flipping through the pictures for a local auction and came across a Leica Krigsmarine (not spelt Kreigsmarine) with a serial number of 136450 which I've identified as a Leica III from 1934. The picture looks right so I think the ID is right.

Can you share your thoughts on this camera?  What price could you not walk away from?  This is a local auction of what looks like a very old estate perhaps, I saw it and got butterflies and I have to consider this, I'm hoping with it being in such a rural area I may be able to get a deal! 

Thanks in advance


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

Forgot to add, it's blue if that makes a hoot of difference


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 23, 2013)

Ooh, you got my attention! I'm drooling on my keyboard at the thought. I would assume marine and blue covering would be naval. Did you run across Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest site? he has info. about one. 

I'm not as familiar with the earlier Leica l, ll, lll etc. models. There were copies, Russian made cameras, but I think they were made to look similar to Leica but are pretty obvious (and some people collect those). Apparently there are fakes out there too so of course I'd be more leery online but if it's a local auction it could be something that got brought back after the war. I wondered about the spelling but maybe that's just in the listing not actually on the camera.

Did you try looking on Leica's official website? Either there or on CameraQuest there's some history and info. I think, as well as a list of body and lens serial numbers (which apparently you already found).


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks Sharon! I will check that all out.  It is spelt without the E on the camera, I took it from the picture and it made me go hmmmm also! I'll see if I can get info about it at all.


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## compur (Oct 23, 2013)

Kriegsmarine is misspelled on the camera? 

I'll trade you my genuine Tiffa-Knee lamp for it.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

lol meh I already have one beside my rolfex watch 
The more I look into the details the more it looks incredibly fake, Kreigsmarine is spelt wrong, it also says Betriebsk on it and that doesn't fit with the serial number, lots of things that make you go hmmmm... black body, blue leather... I dunno...


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## limr (Oct 23, 2013)

The Russian-made knockoffs had their own names, so if that Leica is a fake, it's probably not one of those. The Fed and early Zorki cameras were copies of the Leica II and were made after the Germans sold their patents for the lenses and cameras after WW2. They were never meant to fool people who thought they were getting a Leica, but were rather presented as different cameras that were "as good as" Leicas. I've got a Zorki 6, which is several models after they stopped copying Leicas and started evolving into their own brand.

I don't know anything about Kreigsmarine, though. Or even Krigsmarine!


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## compur (Oct 23, 2013)

Here's some interesting info on fake Leicas:
Link


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## tirediron (Oct 23, 2013)

And some on the Kriegsmarine...


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

Ok, I'm getting very curious now, there is a submarine on it and no Leica, it says they were often engraved as the owner requested...


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## tirediron (Oct 23, 2013)

What's the sale estimate on it?


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 23, 2013)

Can't find one, there is a list of some of the items and pictures and that's it, I'm going to the viewing tomorrow to see what's up, the auction is Friday so we shall see!  In the meantime I'm going to keep researching.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 23, 2013)

I think I found the auction listing - the leatherette-looking covering doesn't look like WWII era to me, it seems too new and the shade of blue seems more modern although I think some of the Russian Zorkis/Feds were done in red so some cameras of that era were apparently done in colors. Of course sometimes people replace the covering on old cameras especially if they don't realize it would have some value. 

The lens looks like it could maybe be Leica but it's hard to tell from the picture; the top plate doesn't look like it's Leica. I suppose it could be a replacement from another camera - I don't know, maybe somewhere under there may be a Leica body?? but I suppose it's likely it's a knockoff or look-a-like of some sort.

I think Kriegsmarine wasn't just used on cameras, that it relates to German naval items. But since it seems to be spelled wrong it seems more likely not to be authentic. 

Happened to think of Pacific Rim, they sell cameras and have historical info. on vintage cameras. Pacific Rim Camera : Photographica Pages: Leica Screwmount Identification


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Thanks Sharon, I was going to post the listing so people could see the pictures but it looks like you tracked it down, with kriegsmarine being spelt wrong it definitely pops the auction to the top of the search 
I'm going to go in and take a look at it anyway, I'm very curious about it!  Hopefully I can get some better pictures of it and see if there are any other markings on it to help identify what on earth it is other than a very likely fake lol.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh and I will add that after all the research I've done so far and looking at so many Leicas I WILL own one someday! They give me a serious wiggly!


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## leicamaster (Oct 24, 2013)

OMG! That is a real Leica. I have one in my collection and looking for more. Where is this auction? Very rare misspell that was produced until production stopped. Only about 50 in existence.  I would pay upwards of $2000 for that camera.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi Leicamaster, can you share pictures of the one you have in your collection?  Is there a link to information on this misspelling and validating it as a Leica you can give?


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## leicamaster (Oct 24, 2013)

I found that auction online and is about an hour away from where I live. Disregard what I said before. Its fake, junk, worthless. See you there.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

I'd still love to see pictures of your Leica with the misspelling and any info on it! It would be great for future reference


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## gsgary (Oct 24, 2013)

vintagesnaps said:


> Ooh, you got my attention! I'm drooling on my keyboard at the thought. I would assume marine and blue covering would be naval. Did you run across Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest site? he has info. about one.
> 
> I'm not as familiar with the earlier Leica l, ll, lll etc. models. There were copies, Russian made cameras, but I think they were made to look similar to Leica but are pretty obvious (and some people collect those). Apparently there are fakes out there too so of course I'd be more leery online but if it's a local auction it could be something that got brought back after the war. I wondered about the spelling but maybe that's just in the listing not actually on the camera.
> 
> Did you try looking on Leica's official website? Either there or on CameraQuest there's some history and info. I think, as well as a list of body and lens serial numbers (which apparently you already found).



Go on Leica forum and post in Historical my friend has most of the Leicas, if it is not a fake i would be all over it like a rash

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## tirediron (Oct 24, 2013)

leicamaster said:


> I found that auction online and is about an hour away from where I live. Disregard what I said before. Its fake, junk, worthless. See you there.


Nothing odd about that statement at all...


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Agree.


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## limr (Oct 24, 2013)

Hrm... I found this completed ebay auction for a Russian-made copy of these Kriegsmarine Leicas:
Leica II Kriegsmarine 1935 1945 WWII Vintage Russian 35mm RF Camera Excellent | eBay

I didn't realize the Russians made copies under the actual Leica name. Here's another website I found to help you identify if it's fake or not. It's got side-by-side pictures that are really helpful: How to Spot a Fake Leica

Speaking of Zorkis, mine is sitting right next to me at the moment and still has film in it, so I think it's time to go shoot


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## limr (Oct 24, 2013)

Even if it's not a real Leica, if the price isn't too high, you might consider it anyway. Either that or one of the Feds or Zorkis, just so you can get a feel for the old cameras. Remember that the German patents on the cameras and the Leitz lenses were available for use after WW2, and apparently, patents were never registered in the USSR, so their factories were producing the same designs without any worry of infringement. They're not quite Leica quality, but they're pretty damn good anyway  The Industar-50 lens on my Zorki is nice and sharp.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Thanks Leonore  I'm 99% sure it is Russian, still quite interesting though so I'm going to go and give it a good once over and see what comes of it


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## tirediron (Oct 24, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Thanks Leonore  I'm 99% sure it is Russian, still quite interesting though so I'm going to go and give it a good once over and see what comes of it


Based on the tells in that link, I'm going to go with 99.9999%! Shutter release, lack of slow speed dial, strap lugs, and RF window all appear wrong.  Also while the cold shoe seems more legit, the screws holding it down are very crude and at different depths.  There's NO WAY that would ever have left the factory like that.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 24, 2013)

I found a picture of another similar one where the shoe was on crooked! which was an obvious fake, looked like Dr. Frankenstein bolted it together.

Leonore besides the Russian Zorkis etc. you mentioned, apparently there are some out of the Ukraine that must be just out and out fakes, I'd never run across those before.

If this is cheap enough it might be fun as an oddity to play around with - if some clueless collector doesn't show up and start a bidding frenzy! LOL


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## tirediron (Oct 24, 2013)

Regardless of it's ancestory, it's probably a good camera.  The Soviet-era, especially early Soviet-era reverse engineered stuff was usually pretty good, and most of those cameras, while not as good as the real thing, are decent cameras in their own right.


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## bobandcar (Oct 24, 2013)

When i get home i will have to look the camera up. i like old mechanical stuff. especially with history.


This is my Leica case.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Well, we went in to see the camera, on the downside there are red flags alllll over the thing, frayed "leather", way too clean and unused metal, screws are pristine, etc etc etc...just feels way off, here are a couple pics I took of it.  On the upside I talked to the auction owner about their pictures used online, they are consistently very blurry, he asked for my number and I may be doing it for them! woot!






Notice the frayed "leather" ?


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Oops, and the bottom:


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## tirediron (Oct 24, 2013)

You missed the biggest one; the lens.  50mm?  I'm certain that should say 5cm!


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## Derrel (Oct 24, 2013)

OMG...that is sooooooo clearly a badly-made counterfeit. The fresh white paint, and the 50 *millimeter* f/3.5 Elmar are hilarious! The viewfinder window is raised and squared, the shoe looks like a high school kid put it on there...and no slow speed dial...it's not even engraved "Leica" on the top plate, so it's really just a lame counterfeit. I'd pay $120-$150 for it as a counterfeit, as a curiosity/shooter, but it's CLEARLY a really poor Leica knock-off...it's so bad I would not even call it a "fake" or "counterfeit".


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 24, 2013)

Yeah guys, it was a little disappointing but I expected it, mind you I have the bug now and I sooooo want to hold a real one in my hands! I WILL own one some day!!


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## limr (Oct 24, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Yeah guys, it was a little disappointing but I expected it, mind you I have the bug now and *I sooooo want to hold a real one in my hands! I WILL own one some day!!*



Preachin' to the choir! 

I don't think either one of us will be owning this one, however...
Rare Leica camera auctioned for record $2.8 million | Toronto Star


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## minicoop1985 (Oct 24, 2013)

That's too bad it was a fake. Would have been a cool piece of history had it been real. Granted, the wrong SIDE of history, but there's still something to be said about artifacts like that. "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do study history are doomed to watch those who don't repeat it."

As for real Leicas... I did something very, very bad last week. I asked the guy at the local camera shop if I could hold one. He let me. I should never have done this, as the Leica virus got me-I can't stop searching eBay for them. So I feel your pain, Pixelrabbit, I really, really do.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Leonore, can you imagine?? I can't imagine, it would go in a case with a set of little angels that both protected it and played the harp any time you looked at it !!

Oh Mini, how silly of you!  

It will be interesting to see who wins this race in the quest for Leica  lol!


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Oh and through my research I found out that I live within 2 hours of Ernst Leitz Canada which used to be in Midland Ontario! I'm so totally going for a drive and going to keep an eye out for local ads etc... because you never know!


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 25, 2013)

That's quite the frankencam, wonder how many different camera parts got hacked into that Leica wannabe? I have a camera that says Auf and Zu but it's hardly a Leica! - an Agfa Clack (named after the shutter sound?).View attachment 58878
I did actually rather unexpectedly not too long ago have a chance to buy an M3 from an area camera shop, it was too good a price to pass up. I wasn't particularly looking for one but the lens is one beautiful chunk of glass, unlike anything else I have ever used. I looked into its aperture blades and had to have it! LOL Nice thing is I have a Voigtlander and lenses that work with that and with my digital Ricoh so it gives me some nice options.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Sharon, I'm beyond jealous, I need a deal I can't pass up! I've educated Mr. Rabbit on Leica and even he went "wow" when he first saw the pictures of them, they have such a presence? perhaps? 
I am going to go and toss a couple bids in for the frankenkamera, if nothing else it will be a fun start to what is likely to turn into a new obsession lol!!


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Sharon, I'm beyond jealous, I need a deal I can't pass up! I've educated Mr. Rabbit on Leica and even he went "wow" when he first saw the pictures of them, they have such a presence? perhaps?
> I am going to go and toss a couple bids in for the frankenkamera, if nothing else it will be a fun start to what is likely to turn into a new obsession lol!!



What you need is a black M4-p and 35mm lens

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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Gary, yes, it would be way cool to get one that was manufactured locally  After a quick look it would be reasonably affordable also!


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Gary, yes, it would be way cool to get one that was manufactured locally  After a quick look it would be reasonably affordable also!



I got a mint 70 year anniverary M4-p for the same price as my M4-2 and my Leica collecting friend offered me nearly 4 times what i paid for it, if you saw his collection you would go weak at the knees he has over 30 , and an MP that has never been opened

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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

So... Gary....where do you live again?...

*starts plotting*


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> So... Gary....where do you live again?...
> 
> *starts plotting*



Chesterfield  i think there is one in the US my son might be coming over to Canada with the army
This is part of the film group at our club and me with my 2 beauties

And notice the 2 Leica Pradovit's


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

**starts swimming**  
Very nice!! 
Do you know where in Canada your son will be?


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## minicoop1985 (Oct 25, 2013)

I have a feeling you will win this one. The local ones are all expen$ive. Very, very expensive. There's a repairable one with bad leather and some other dings for $550. Sheesh.


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> **starts swimming**
> Very nice!!
> Do you know where in Canada your son will be?



Its near the sking area there is a big logistics base

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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Meaford or Borden?


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

minicoop1985 said:


> I have a feeling you will win this one. The local ones are all expen$ive. Very, very expensive. There's a repairable one with bad leather and some other dings for $550. Sheesh.



I'll let ya know how it goes after! The auction starts at 6pm   Yikes! Good thing we can shop on the internet now huh!?


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Meaford or Borden?



Borden sounds right

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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

gsgary said:


> Borden sounds right
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2



Cool, that's about 2hrs from here, Meaford is closer, under an hour, if he wants a home cooked meal while he is here he is more than welcome!


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## tirediron (Oct 25, 2013)

gsgary said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Meaford or Borden?
> ...


CFB Borden is the logistics centre and logistics training facility for the Canadian Armed Forces.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Yeah, Meaford is training, they used the wee village we used to live in to do exercises once, it is quite unsettling to look out your window and see armed soldiers guarding the corner even knowing it was training!


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## gsgary (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Borden sounds right
> ...



Thats very kind of you

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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Well I came home with no camera, a fellow came up from the city, as soon as I saw him I told Mr R that was my competition and it was him and i and an internet bidder when it came up lol, he got it for $180 and I'm sure he would have kept going if he needed to , he was showing no signs of stopping!

 Mr Rabbit on the other hand came home with an old mechanics book, a precision instrument for charting and a Meccano engine and an extras Meccano pack lol. 
That's ok I'll get a real one someday


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## dxqcanada (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Oh and I will add that after all the research I've done so far and looking at so many Leicas I WILL own one someday! They give me a serious wiggly!



Ah, if I had known you wanted a Leitz rangefinder I could have sold you my Leica II or IIf ... they gone now.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

dxqcanada said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and I will add that after all the research I've done so far and looking at so many Leicas I WILL own one someday! They give me a serious wiggly!
> ...


Why must you torture me now? lol


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## dxqcanada (Oct 25, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> dxqcanada said:
> 
> 
> > PixelRabbit said:
> ...



I gotta Canon 7 ?
Canon 7 Rangefinder With 50mm F 1 8 Lens | eBay


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

dxqcanada said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > dxqcanada said:
> ...



I will keep that in mind


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## dxqcanada (Oct 25, 2013)

If it does not sell, I can sell it to you cheaper.


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Well how neat are you!


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## dxqcanada (Oct 25, 2013)

I need cash to get a Sony A7 / A7R First Impressions Review: Digital Photography Review

Ok, probably not ... unless you want to by my Canon for $2000.00 ???


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 25, 2013)

Ha! If I had 2K.....


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