# Flu shots, should they be required?



## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

So we all get asked around this time of year if we want to get our flu shot, but have you ever been required to do so? My wife is a nurse and her current employer requires her to have one or lose her job! We both do not believe in them and I always opt out of getting them. My wife and I are also trying to get pregnant which makes me even more reluctant to have her get shot up with it. I guess in my book I think we shouldn't ever have to put something into our bodies that we don't want and your job shouldn't require so. What do you guys think?


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## bribrius (Dec 2, 2014)

should kids be required to get vaccinated before attending public school?


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## waday (Dec 2, 2014)

If your job requires it, then yes, you have to do it to keep the job. Especially if she's around others that can get sick more easily.

Also, I thought pregnant women should be getting it anyways to avoid getting sick and hurting the fetus?


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## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

If the job requires it, okay, but _should the job require it_?  I understand the reason why nurses and teachers would be required - they are more at risk of getting the flu and transmitting it to people who are more vulnerable to it (sick people and children) and who could have more serious consequences if they get the flu. There's a question of public health involved.

Having said that, there should be (and I think there is) an option to waive the requirement, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the circumstances.

My mother works in a pre-school and had to start getting the flu shot. One year, she started feeling numbness in her hands and feet. Didn't know what caused it. The next year, right after she had the flu shot, she ended up in the hospital with Guillain-Barre, an auto-immune syndrome. The body attacks the peripheral nervous system. And yes, it can be the result of a reaction to the flu shot.

She doesn't get the shot anymore and her job waives her requirement to do so. And because there's still a question about whether or not this kind of reaction is hereditary, I don't get the flu shot either. (To be honest, I never got a flu shot before that, either.)


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## Msteelio91 (Dec 2, 2014)

BGeise said:


> So we all get asked around this time of year if we want to get our flu shot, but have you ever been required to do so? My wife is a nurse and her current employer requires her to have one or lose her job! We both do not believe in them and I always opt out of getting them. My wife and I are also trying to get pregnant which makes me even more reluctant to have her get shot up with it. I guess in my book I geek we shouldn't ever have to put something into our bodies that we don't want and your job shouldn't require so. What do you guys think?



I'm getting so sick of people saying "I don't believe in them". They are medically beneficial, are free, and have ZERO consequences. People literally kill for **** like that elsewhere. 

The flu shot will even protect her unborn baby if you are trying for a child.

Go get the shot.


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## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

Msteelio91 said:


> BGeise said:
> 
> 
> > So we all get asked around this time of year if we want to get our flu shot, but have you ever been required to do so? My wife is a nurse and her current employer requires her to have one or lose her job! We both do not believe in them and I always opt out of getting them. My wife and I are also trying to get pregnant which makes me even more reluctant to have her get shot up with it. I guess in my book I geek we shouldn't ever have to put something into our bodies that we don't want and your job shouldn't require so. What do you guys think?
> ...


It's not that I just"don't believe" in them. The information shows that all of the things you hear about how the vaccine does so many great things is biased information that the vaccine manufacturers and your government have tailored to fit what they need to portray to the public. The fact is that your chance of getting influenza decreases from 2% to 1% and that is if the vaccine is perfectly manufactured to fit the strain in the environment which is almost impossible because the influenza virus is always changing. Also the facts show that children under 6 months of age did not show any significant results to require vaccination and children under 2 years of age have the risk of cataplexy, narcolepsy and febrile convulsions.

Here is the real facts:
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy children.  - PubMed - NCBI
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.  - PubMed - NCBI


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

How else would the government secretly give us mind controlling drugs that make us feel an uncontrolable need to purchase goods? It's no coincidence that "flu" season and holiday shopping season are so close together.

The bigger question is who is telling the government to give us the shots. You might say the corporations but I think it goes higher than that...


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## 407370 (Dec 2, 2014)

I have actually had flu, Asian Flu to be exact and it floored me for 3 weeks. Everything hurts even your hair follicles and I got so tired from getting out of bed I gave up and stayed there for nearly 2 weeks. Kept my fluid levels up to reduce dehydration from the raging fever and let it run it's course. Flu is bad, really bad and anything to reduce the chances of catching it is a good thing. Vulnerable groups with reduced ability to fight such an infection especially need the jab.

Read this The 1918 Influenza Pandemic if you think you have flu symptoms.


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## Designer (Dec 2, 2014)

BGeise said:


> What do you guys think?



The medical field (her place of employment) has a vested interest in pushing the vaccinations. 

A. The vaccine producers are guessing which strains to make the vaccine for.
B. Sometimes they are wrong.
C. The preservatives used in vaccines would in any other scenario be classified as poisonous.
D. Some people who get the flu are down for a few days and then recover.
E. Those people who recover are more resistant in the future.


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## pjaye (Dec 2, 2014)

This thread is going to require popcorn I think. 

I get the flu shot. My ex-father in law was high risk and I was his primary caretaker. Thankfully, I got the shot because the first year he lived with us, my ex husband got H1N1. He was violently ill. Neither my father in law or I got sick. It was confirmed btw, that the ex did in fact have h1n1. 

Two years ago, I was again exposed to a confirmed case of the flu. I took care of the sick person and did not get sick. I don't really care if people get them, but I firmly believe in them.


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## waday (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> If the job requires it, okay, but _should the job require it_?  I understand the reason why nurses and teachers would be required - they are more at risk of getting the flu and transmitting it to people who are more vulnerable to it (sick people and children) and who could have more serious consequences if they get the flu. There's a question of public health involved.
> 
> Having said that, there should be (and I think there is) an option to waive the requirement, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the circumstances.
> 
> ...


If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job.



BGeise said:


> It's not that I just"don't believe" in them. The information shows that all of the things you hear about how the vaccine does so many great things is biased information that the vaccine manufacturers and your government have tailored to fit what they need to portray to the public. The fact is that your chance of getting influenza decreases from 2% to 1% and that is if the vaccine is perfectly manufactured to fit the strain in the environment which is almost impossible because the influenza virus is always changing. Also the facts show that children under 6 months of age did not show any significant results to require vaccination and children under 2 years of age have the risk of cataplexy, narcolepsy and febrile convulsions.
> 
> Here is the real facts:
> Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy children.  - PubMed - NCBI
> Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.  - PubMed - NCBI


It's easy to find data to support your own beliefs (see below). 

The problem arises when you're not a doctor and you didn't do the study. You can read this, but can you actually understand what it means on a day to day basis, including all the nuances that you can't learn from reading a study? I'm not in the medical field, so I'll just make an informed decision after listening to my doctor and reading studies. In the end, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Influenza vaccine given to pregnant women reduces hospitalization d...  - PubMed - NCBI
The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasa...  - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in reducing hospital admissions in people with diabetes.
Influenza vaccination in secondary prevention from coronary ischaem...  - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of Influenza Vaccine Against Life-threatening RT-PCR-confirmed Influenza Illness in US Children, 2010–2012
Relation between influenza vaccination and outpatient visits, hospi...  - PubMed - NCBI
Influenza vaccination reduces cardiovascular events in patients wit...  - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of seasonal vaccine in preventing confirmed influenza...  - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confir...  - PubMed - NCBI
Association between influenza vaccination and cardiovascular outcom...  - PubMed - NCBI


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## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

Yes, the flu _can_ be bad, but for most healthy adults, it's not always as serious as what you experienced. I've had the flu, too. It knocked me out for a couple of days. Then I got better. A week after I got it, I still felt a little tired but mostly normal. 

And in more than 20 years of not getting a flu shot, I've gotten the flu once that I can remember. If I had it another time, I don't remember, so I can't imagine it was all that bad.

As for zero consequences, did y'all catch that part of my post above about my mother developing an auto-immune syndrome from the flu shot? The one that landed her in the hospital for 2 weeks and still affects her several years later?

Everyone is going to have a story. The fact is, though, that you can't generalize from one person's experience.


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## waday (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> Yes, the flu _can_ be bad, but for most healthy adults, it's not always as serious as what you experienced. I've had the flu, too. It knocked me out for a couple of days. Then I got better. A week after I got it, I still felt a little tired but mostly normal.
> 
> And in more than 20 years of not getting a flu shot, I've gotten the flu once that I can remember. If I had it another time, I don't remember, so I can't imagine it was all that bad.
> 
> ...


I definitely understand your mother's story, and if someone has an adverse reaction to it, then, of course, they shouldn't be required to have the shot. However, to go back to the original question, if it's required by the employer (and you don't have any reactions to it), then, tough.

She should have known what was required when signing up for the job. For my job, I have to undergo annual physicals/etc. and regular drug/alcohol screenings. If I had a problem with it, I shouldn't have chosen this field.


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## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

waday said:


> If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it *and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job*.



Yes, but my point was that this is begging the question. The question in the OP was asking if a job should require employees to take a flu shot. Saying "Yes because the job requires it" is not answering that question.



BGeise said:


> <snip>
> I guess in my book I think we shouldn't ever have to put something into our bodies that we don't want *and your job shouldn't require so. What do you guys think?*


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

Like it or not we are herd animals. We all eat, **** and mingle with other members of the herd all the time. Viruses like the flu love herd animals as it gives it an easy way to spread.

Getting a flu shot is not only helpful to you but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish.


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## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

waday said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > If the job requires it, okay, but _should the job require it_?  I understand the reason why nurses and teachers would be required - they are more at risk of getting the flu and transmitting it to people who are more vulnerable to it (sick people and children) and who could have more serious consequences if they get the flu. There's a question of public health involved.
> ...


Yes it is easy to find information to support my belief. The problem is how hard it is to find substantial evidence to discredit it. There is a lot of estimating and guessing with "the results". Also the only way you can refuse a shot is religious beliefs or medical issues. So I think I am going to make my own religion that does not allow them[emoji6]


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## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

Well, Happy Festivus to you, then!


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## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> Well, Happy Festivus to you, then!


I have always wanted to lead a cult.


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## waday (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it *and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job*.
> ...


If I say that I don't believe in using a computer because it's the devil, my employer will say tough noogies, it's required.

So, "Yes the job requires it" because if someone is around people with compromised immune systems, getting something to prevent the spread of infection is similar to a tool-of-the-trade.



BGeise said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



We should all just join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


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## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> Like it or not we are herd animals. We all eat, **** and mingle with other members of the herd all the time. Viruses like the flu love herd animals as it gives it an easy way to spread.
> 
> Getting a flu shot is not only helpful to you but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish.


Gonna disagree with your second comment you are just as likely to get the virus from touching a door handle as you are letting me luck your face when I am sick.


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## tirediron (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> ...Getting a flu shot is not only *could be* helpful to you, but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish *a personal choice*.


Mehh...  a bit of a grand statement I think.  Having worked in some of the best breeding conditions for disease transmission in the modern world (a ship, at sea where anywhere from 10 - 50 people share the same sleeping, eating and sanitary facilities, and where a significant number of those have young children at home), I will speak from experience:  I have not had the flu in 30+ years with the exception of the one year that as an operational requirement I was required to get the flu vaccine.  I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on television, but that statement is fact, and conclusive enough for me.

We should also bear in mind that it is impossible to truly erradicate a disease.  Reduce it?  Absolutely, but actually erradicate it?  Can't do it.  Our immune systems are like race horses.  If they're not exercised regularily, over time they will become ineffective and once that happens, a generally minor condition such as the flu, or even a cold could wipe out huge swaths of the population in no time.


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > ...Getting a flu shot is not only *could be* helpful to you, but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish *a personal choice*.
> ...



You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.


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## tirediron (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.


I'm the only group I really care about.



runnah said:


> The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.


Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor.  Explain to me then how it works.  I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct?  Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome.  Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I'm the only group I really care about.
> 
> Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor.  Explain to me then how it works.  I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct?  Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome.  *Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.*



Well that's just plain rude.


The bolded part is just laughable. It could be possible if we all stayed in our own little bubble and never traveled. We do as humans become adapted to our "range". You get used to the polloen and spores, the water, the food etc.. The problem comes from when you have people traveling to different eco systems and cross contaminating.

The other issue is the human toll. Diseases like small pox, polio, measles etc... all costs many lives. To eliminate these diseases the whole population had to be vaccinated.


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## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


The influenza vaccine is designed to combat viral infections. However it would have to be the exact strain of the virus to reduce your chances of getting it from 2% to 1%. Bacterial infections are what we more commonly see and mistake for the flu virus when is most likely a upper respite infection


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor.  Explain to me then how it works.



How about I link.

Viral evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THis one is a monster but a good read.
Origins and Evolution of Antibiotic Resistance


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## bribrius (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.
> ...


this makes no sense. when you touch a door handle and catch something the immune system responds and to some extent next time you touch it the immune system may cope with it even better as it has already fought a similar threat before. Is what you are alluding to. The vaccination is the same exact thing except you are being exposed to safe versions of them in a dead form and many of them at once (depending on the yearly flu shot cocktail they change them depending on what is traveling around).
so there really isn't anything unnatural about the vaccination, it work in the same principle as what you are alluding too. Using your bodies natural response to develop a higher tolerance. A safer, introduction to the organisms lets say, than the whatever you pick up off the door handle example..allowing your immune system to develop a response to it once introduced.


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

I think everyone needs to watch this because there is lots of misinformation going on. It might be a bit advanced for some...


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## Gary A. (Dec 2, 2014)

My best friend is a physician. He gets the shot every year. He strongly suggests others follow suit. He has his own private practice but at the hospitals where he has privileges, the hospital policies are to get the shot or wear a mask. I haven't performed my own research, but I have a lot of trust in what he says. Even if the above numbers are true, 2% to 1%, that is a 50% reduction in occurrences. My mother, a RN, also endorsed vaccinations. I trust my Mom.

There seems to be a preponderance of evidence in favor of vaccines. Runnah is absolutely correct, vaccines not only help the individual but also are for the greater good of the collective community. Not getting vaccinated shows a selfish disregard for others.


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## Gary A. (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.
> ...


The defense rests.


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## Andy80F (Dec 2, 2014)

Never had the flu jab, never had time off sick.  Same risk of carrying and spreading a virus as others.  The group is as safe as it is from those who despite having had the vaccine are to host it in their nasal passages, from surface contamination and pass it on in the usual way.  Vaccination does not stop the spread as such and therefor individual choice is relevant.


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## bribrius (Dec 2, 2014)

If you got the flue shot last year, and something new is going around that wasn't in last years cocktail I believe your body is still more capable of dealing with it as the antibodies are closer from its starting point than where your immune system would be otherwise. So your immune system has less to catch up on... While the difference may only be "not as sick" or "recovered more quickly" rather than a all out "didn't catch it at all" it still gives your immune system a leg to stand on.  I think these flu shots get a bad rap because people think they wont get sick at all but that isn't really the purpose of it but rather to develop your immune system to handle it better. There are other factors that come in to play too just as prevalent. How much rest you get, how healthy you eat, how many people are around that could transmit something, how often you wash your hands, what medications you may or may not be on. The list is endless. Getting a shot isn't a cure all but a piece of the equation.  I know me smoking cigarettes sure don't help.. lol.


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## bribrius (Dec 2, 2014)

Andy80F said:


> Never had the flu jab, never had time off sick.  Same risk of carrying and spreading a virus as others.  The group is as safe as it is from those who despite having had the vaccine are to host it in their nasal passages, from surface contamination and pass it on in the usual way.  Vaccination does not stop the spread as such and therefor individual choice is relevant.


corporations often allow free flu shots for employees, insurance companies do as well. There is a reason for that.
a. less likely to get REALLY sick, limits lost time from employment (saves company money)
b. less likely to carry it long, limits exposure to others in employment (saves company money from lost time)
c. same as a. and b. but replace company with insurance company who really doesn't want to pay for people to pass it around among a group insured and have them all going to their primary care physician with more $ spent..

they don't give out free flu shots to be nice. They really don't give a rats azz if you get sick other than how it effects the bottom line.  It is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Gary A. (Dec 2, 2014)

tirediron said:


> ... Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor.  Explain to me then how it works.  I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct?  Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome.  Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.


Vaccines are not the introduction of a foreign coping/defense mechanism into our bodies. It is a methodology of using our inherent and natural defense mechanisms to prepare for an attack from an outside virus. The vaccines triggering of the body's defense mechanism is similar to what bribrius described with his door knob example, only the vaccine is a lot safer for the individual.  

And yes, natural selection works, but natural selection preys on the weak. The vaccine allows the weak a better chance in combating the virus. (Weak does not necessarily mean physically weak, but immune system weak. The flu can take down a physically strong/healthy person if their immune system isn't up to the task of defending against against the flu virus ... it just may take a bit longer than for a weak person.)

Gary


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## JustJazzie (Dec 2, 2014)

Keeping my typing fists tightly closed on this issue, in order to keep my blood pressure from boiling over. Let just say I leave 98% my healthcare in the hands of raw garlic, and essential oils. ;-) better go do some yoga and refrain from reading this thread.


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## Gary A. (Dec 2, 2014)

Andy80F said:


> Never had the flu jab, never had time off sick.  Same risk of carrying and spreading a virus as others.  The group is as safe as it is from those who despite having had the vaccine are to host it in their nasal passages, from surface contamination and pass it on in the usual way.  Vaccination does not stop the spread as such and therefor individual choice is relevant.


Vaccines stops the breeding of the virus. Most viruses have a finite amount of time they can live outside the host organism. That time ranges from minutes to days. A virus trapped on a doorknob or inside a nasal passage and unable to reproduce is doomed. If that virus is able to travel to another vaccinated person, the odds are again no joy for the virus. et cetera


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## pixmedic (Dec 2, 2014)

Wait...what?
You can get a shot that keeps you from getting the flu?
The hell you say?
Sorcery!


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2014)

BGeise said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


I would think there is a religion in the US to cover that what about Scientology


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## bribrius (Dec 2, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Keeping my typing fists tightly closed on this issue, in order to keep my blood pressure from boiling over. Let just say I leave 98% my healthcare in the hands of raw garlic, and essential oils. ;-) better go do some yoga and refrain from reading this thread.


meh,

while I am not a advocate of the medical and pharmaceutical "industry" in general I think past history of much higher fatality rates and spread of disease pretty much killed off most of the successful witch doctor meme...
The mortality rate is much lower now per percent than in the 1600's me thinks and they had garlic then while being exposed to much LESS population and much LESS little virus and bacterial culprits being passed around. I get ya though friend of ours is like that. Seems somewhat beneficial but I wouldn't trust my kids to most natural remedies that came around while we had such high mortality rates but to each their own. Humans are amazing though. All those thousands of years locked into the dna of survival capability, we probably just weren't meant to be locked up together like sick caged animals so much hence the problem of passing all this crap around..

they put immunizations in livestock feed now too, just think every time you have a steak you are getting whatever that cow got.  All the gmo food. Must be a nightmare trying to be a naturalist these days..


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## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

if you're a stakeholder in a company that profits from it: yes
if you're a citizen with individual rights: no.


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Must be a nightmare trying to be a naturalist these days..



Well most of died off from easily treatable ailments.


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## Tailgunner (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> if you're a stakeholder in a company that profits from it: yes
> if you're a citizen a with individual rights: no.



Exactly.


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> if you're a stakeholder in a company that profits from it: yes
> if you're a citizen a with individual rights: no.




When does the good of the group supersede the rights of the individual?


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## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> When does the good of the group supersede the rights of the individual?



never.   see: Soviet Russia.  Unless you like subhuman misery.

Also, ask that same question to the individual store owners in Ferguson about what they think of the mob--acting under what they considered was good.


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## snerd (Dec 2, 2014)

I get flu shot every year and pneumonia shot every 5 years. 


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

No way would I get a flu shot. They don't have a high success rate as far as preventing flu. I think it's messed up that a job requires a vaccine. My sister is an rn and also has to get vaccinated for her job. My family (+ 2 toddlers) all had the flu last year and it was no fun. But no one died. Seriously the media + their vaccine scare tactics are full of so much bs. Vaccines have real and serious complications. No thank you. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> No way would I get a flu shot. They don't have a high success rate as far as preventing flu. I think it's messed up that a job requires a vaccine. My sister is an rn and also has to get vaccinated for her job. My family (+ 2 toddlers) all had the flu last year and it was no fun. But no one died. Seriously the media + their vaccine scare tactics are full of so much bs. *Vaccines have real and serious complications.* No thank you. [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Like saving lives...


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## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > No way would I get a flu shot. They don't have a high success rate as far as preventing flu. I think it's messed up that a job requires a vaccine. My sister is an rn and also has to get vaccinated for her job. My family (+ 2 toddlers) all had the flu last year and it was no fun. But no one died. Seriously the media + their vaccine scare tactics are full of so much bs. *Vaccines have real and serious complications.* No thank you. [emoji6]
> ...


...and ruining them 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > paigew said:
> ...



We can go around in circles but at the end of the day there has been no credible scientific findings that have shown vaccines are harmful. As a parent I feel that I have to make the responsible choice.


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## xzyragon (Dec 2, 2014)

Vaccines and flu shots are harmless if they're done with clean needles.  

Flu shots are relatively ineffective because they're based off statistics and guesswork, but if you want to be cautious, go ahead and get them.  In an office environment, viruses can spread rapidly, so it makes sense to take any extra precaution (especially if the employer is providing it) to protect their employees, and keep them working longer / healthier at minimal cost.

Employers require far more medically invasive or personally invasive tests all the time.


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## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> We can go around in circles but at the end of the day there has been no credible scientific findings that have shown vaccines are harmful. As a parent I feel that I have to make the responsible choice.



Well that is just untrue. It says right on the vaccine package the risks...publicly for anyone to read: "death, seizures, paralysis".... Our job as parents is to weigh the risk of the vaccine injury vs the risk of actually catching the VPI, and then finally the chances of whether or not we could survive said VPI. Then we decide what, if any vaccines we should give our children.


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## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

xzyragon said:


> Vaccines and flu shots are harmless if they're done with clean needles.



Again not true. Do some searches on the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program and you will quickly find that is not true.


----------



## xzyragon (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> xzyragon said:
> 
> 
> > Vaccines and flu shots are harmless if they're done with clean needles.
> ...



Injuries from vaccines are statistically irrelevant.  You're more likely to get hit by a bus than become "injured" from a vaccine or flu shot.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > We can go around in circles but at the end of the day there has been no credible scientific findings that have shown vaccines are harmful. As a parent I feel that I have to make the responsible choice.
> ...



Are we talking about just the flu or vaccines in general?


----------



## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> Are we talking about just the flu or vaccines in general?


either/or/all? Does it matter? All vaccines have risks. It is unwise and ignorant to think otherwise. Whether or not the risk is high enough for you to care about...well that would personal decision.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Are we talking about just the flu or vaccines in general?
> ...



Well it does matter. For example, my whole family is getting rabies vaccines. One vaccine that I will happily take as the alternative is certain death.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

xzyragon said:


> Injuries from vaccines are statistically irrelevant.  You're more likely to get hit by a bus than become "injured" from a vaccine or flu shot.



and you're more likely to die from malnutrition than from influenza.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> Whether or not the risk is high enough for you to care about...well that would personal decision.



Except all the dictators here that want to make these decisions for you...


----------



## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> Well it does matter. For example, my whole family is getting rabies vaccines. One vaccine that I will happily take as the alternative is certain death.


Seriously?? Wow, I'm sorry. Those are some heavy duty painful shots from what I have heard. And only given to people who have come in contact with (or may have) rabies. Since there is no cure for rabies, I would definitely get that vaccine if I came in contact with it!


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> xzyragon said:
> 
> 
> > Injuries from vaccines are statistically irrelevant.  You're more likely to get hit by a bus than become "injured" from a vaccine or flu shot.
> ...



A study has shown that 11 out of 8 people use statistics improperly.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Well it does matter. For example, my whole family is getting rabies vaccines. One vaccine that I will happily take as the alternative is certain death.
> ...



Yeah it's been a hard couple of weeks.

But anyway, back to arguing!


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

The lowest risk scenario for me personally is if everyone else gets vaccinated, and I do not. This doesn't work out, though, because it's never just me. It's me and a bunch of other idiots, and then we all get sick sometimes.

Vaccines to carry small risks to the individual. The government and industry certainly do their best to dance around these issues and minimize them, which creates an atmosphere of conspiracy. There isn't one, there's just bureaucrats.

The overall best outcome, for society as a whole, is for everyone to get vaccinated, and for occasional people to draw the short straw and to have some negative consequence.

Pretending that we live, or should live, in some libertarian utopia where the rights of society never supercede the rights of the individual, and equating such a thing with the USSR, is just silly and wrong. See, for instance, traffic laws. Waiting for a red light is giving up a little personal freedom for the good of the whole (the widely misquoted Ben Franklin notwithstanding).


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The overall best outcome, for society as a whole, is for everyone to get vaccinated, and for occasional people to draw the short straw and to have some negative consequence.



unless another H1N1 strain comes along...   Because guess what strain wasn't in the flu shot that year.


----------



## Designer (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Except all the dictators here that want to make these decisions for you...


Coming soon to a city/state/nation near you.


----------



## xzyragon (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Well it does matter. For example, my whole family is getting rabies vaccines. One vaccine that I will happily take as the alternative is certain death.
> ...



Vaccinations are preventative.  You have to have them in your system BEFORE you come into contact with the pathogen.  Getting a rabies shot after the fact is pointless because if you survive, you're immune...


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

It does amaze me that we have the best medicine in the world in an era where science improves everyday and people still don't take part in it.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

Designer said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Except all the dictators here that want to make these decisions for you...
> ...



So would either of you quarantine yourselves if you came into contact with Ebola or would you just say "screw everyone else I am going to Dairy Queen"?


----------



## Msteelio91 (Dec 2, 2014)

Glad I got in this thread early and then had to actually do work, it's been a great read lol


----------



## paigew (Dec 2, 2014)

xzyragon said:


> Vaccinations are preventative.  You have to have them in your system BEFORE you come into contact with the pathogen.  Getting a rabies shot after the fact is pointless because if you survive, you're immune...


wrong. that is how it works in animals but they do NOT vaccinate humans for rabies unless they (may) have come into contact with rabies.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

I have become an expert on rabies in the past 2 weeks.


----------



## pgriz (Dec 2, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Andy80F said:
> 
> 
> > Never had the flu jab, never had time off sick.  Same risk of carrying and spreading a virus as others.  The group is as safe as it is from those who despite having had the vaccine are to host it in their nasal passages, from surface contamination and pass it on in the usual way.  Vaccination does not stop the spread as such and therefor individual choice is relevant.
> ...



Vaccines present a portion of the virus or bacteria to the immune system, and when the immune system recognizes that portion as "not-self", it sets off a cascade of actions that result in antibodies being created.  In producing the vaccine, the developer of the vaccine has to consider which parts of the virus (or bacteria, for that matter), are essentially unchanging (usually some of  virus capsule components and some of the viral enzymes), which are changing quickly (also some parts of the virus capsule), and which are dangerous to have (the viral genome, either in RNA or DNA form).  A good vaccine will incorporate a number of components of the virus without incorporating the dangerous elements.  The problem for us is that the human immune response is not perfect, and sometimes the immune system will characterize something as "not-self" which is actually "self" - and this get the auto-immune response attacking components of our own body.

As for viruses not being able to live outside the body... I really wish that this would be true.  Depending on the viral capsule structure, some viruses can exist in dormant state for centuries.  If they are not exposed to UV, ionizing radiation, or oxygen, they can stay dormant but viable for a long time.

An interesting bit of information came out of the genome sequencing study - it appears that more than half of the genetic endowment we carry is made up of "junk" DNA, which apparently doesn't code for anything.  Further studies determined that much of this "junk" was very similar to viral gene sequences, leading some researchers to consider that the genome represents millions of years of infections of viruses of the basic eucaryotic cell.  There is a link between cancers caused by viruses, and cancers caused by damaged DNA, which seem, in some cases, to re-animate the dormant viral sequences.

Conspiracy theories aside, vaccinations DO reduce the chances of getting sick from a virus or bacteria, but only IF the right strain was used, and if the vaccine developers were clever enough to select those components which are present across a number of strains.


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> photoguy99 said:
> 
> 
> > The overall best outcome, for society as a whole, is for everyone to get vaccinated, and for occasional people to draw the short straw and to have some negative consequence.
> ...



You are completely missing the point.


----------



## xzyragon (Dec 2, 2014)

paigew said:


> xzyragon said:
> 
> 
> > Vaccinations are preventative.  You have to have them in your system BEFORE you come into contact with the pathogen.  Getting a rabies shot after the fact is pointless because if you survive, you're immune...
> ...



Rabies | Vaccines.gov

Yes they're vaccinate you after you've come into contact.  I haven't looked into the science behind that as far as what booster the vaccine does while you're fighting a rabies infection, but I stand my ground on the fact that vaccines, are by their very nature, preventative measures.  At least that's what the professors in my microbiology, immunology, and virology classes taught...


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

A bunch of photographers discussing medicine is like asking an engineer how to make love.


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> A bunch of photographers discussing medicine is like asking an engineer how to make love.



yea, you gotta ask a real blue collar worker....like  a professional pipe layer.


----------



## pgriz (Dec 2, 2014)

Runnah, you obviously never met a sensual engineer.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Dec 2, 2014)

Should it be requried?

No.  We need free choice.  If you don't want to get the shot, that's your decision, and ultimately your problem.

Is it a good idea?

Yes.  I get one every year, as does the rest of my family.  Our choice.

Should your wife's employer be forbidden from requiring the flu shot?

No.  It's their choice to require it for employment (for obvious reasons), and to be blunt your wife is not required to work there... and therefore not technically required to get the vaccination. It's her choice.

Just my .02


----------



## Overread (Dec 2, 2014)

Stradawhovious said:


> No.  We need free choice.  If you don't want to get the shot, that's your decision, and ultimately your problem.



Technically its not just a personal problem. 
It's a social one since by not having the jab you allow the disease to remain alive within the community (as a sufferer or carrier). As such it remains a social problem. 

In theory since a disease is a living organism if you can immunise the population it ends up with no-where to live. With no-where to live it dies - in theory we want to work toward repeating what we did with smallpox - immunise and drive it out.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> You are completely missing the point.


I'm actually not.  that's what's crazy.


----------



## runnah (Dec 2, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Runnah, you obviously never met a sensual engineer.



Are they hanging out with unicorns and bigfoot?


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

we should outlaw all public spaces that allow people to come into close contact which each other.  It's a matter of public safety.

No more hugging ball for Runnah.


----------



## Derrel (Dec 2, 2014)

There seems to be a rising pattern of physicians writing articles stating that the flu vaccines are mostly hype, and that the alleged success rates are bogus, and foisted upon a  medically ignorant public that desperately WANTS to believe a flu vaccine will help them avoid the flu. I have never had a flu shot...and have not had the flu in thirty years or so...the last time I had it Ronald Reagan was president,and I was just out of high school...I dunno...recently I've read some articles written by MD's that claim the flu shot hype is being foisted upon large insurance groups as a POSSIBLE way to cut their services rendered bills, so..they force their insured people to get a flu shot.

But the idea that a flu vaccine shot, randomly formulated each year, and based on a best-guess scenario, is a medically wise and good idea for every single person? One physician's article suggested that the idea of ANY procedure being "a good idea for every single person" is a ridiculous fallacy. And yet...ridiculous fallacies are often pretty popular in America. So..there ya' go..the flu shot...heavily hyped, and a major ideological doctrine that many people obsess and fret over.

Fifteen years ago we "all knew" that eggs were horrible for peoples' health. We all "knew" that too much coffee was bad for people...and yet, now we have research that suggests almost diametrically opposite points of view are "the truth". I feel the same way about the flu vaccine myth. It's not a savior, but Big Pharma hypes the chit out of it...so, it must be awesome. Right?


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> photoguy99 said:
> 
> 
> > You are completely missing the point.
> ...



Well, whatever. Maybe you get the point and are deliberately introducing a red herring by talking about a specific strain, which isn't any more interesting than talking about a specific individual when we're talking about statistical, population-level, effects.

The point about the H1N1 strain not being in that year's vaccine is irrelevant, and I don't care whether you're aware of that or not.


----------



## pgriz (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Runnah, you obviously never met a sensual engineer.
> ...



I'll have to check.  Last I looked, the places that catered to unicorns and bigfoot/sasquash types were pretty selective about who they let in.  Why, are you worrying about the engineer's ability to reproduce?


----------



## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > A bunch of photographers discussing medicine is like asking an engineer how to make love.
> ...


What do you think pix? Aren't you a doctor or something


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The point about the H1N1 strain not being in that year's vaccine is irrelevant, and I don't care whether you're aware of that or not.



it's relevant because people that got the flu shot were still very susceptible to the strain of h1n1 that ran wild a few years ago.  Because a room full of men picked the wrong few strains of virus to use that year.

The flu shot is pointless and that's why I wont get it.  But actually i get violently ill when i take it and i'm wiped out for at least 3-4 days and then i still have a 98% chance of actually getting the flu.

children under 5, who are actually considered high risk, have such a low probability of dying from the flu.  The death rate is averaging something below 100 deaths a year.   that puts the mortality rate at something like .0000002%

there's a _very high_ risk your child will die during childbirth.  that's the biggest risk of anyone below the age of 10.  Solution: dont have kids.


----------



## BGeise (Dec 2, 2014)

Overread said:


> Stradawhovious said:
> 
> 
> > No.  We need free choice.  If you don't want to get the shot, that's your decision, and ultimately your problem.
> ...



So why are kids still being vaccinated for it and other things like polio


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:


> ..and then i still have a 98% chance of actually getting the flu.



Good lord, what are you doing? Are you seeking out flu sufferers and eating their snot or something?


----------



## Braineack (Dec 2, 2014)

let me rephrase:  I'm still 98% as likely to contract the flu, that year, as without the "vaccination".

or maybe i was just hanging out a day care.  something we should outlaw; way too many germs.


----------



## Overread (Dec 2, 2014)

BGeise said:


> So why are kids still being vaccinated for it and other things like polio



Well the last case of smallpox was in 1977 so it wasn't very long ago. Also even in developed countries you could still have small isolated groups/individuals who are not immune, but who could still be carriers. As a result you have to keep immunising otherwise any isolated case will just spread right through the population again and you're all the way back to where you started.


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 2, 2014)

BGeise said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



me??
no, no. not even close.


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

You're frequently close to doctors. I assume you wash thoroughly, afterwards.


----------



## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

It was 1978. And apparently as of this year, vials of smallpox were still lying around. In Maryland. Always the last place you look.

Destroying the last samples of smallpox virus could prove short-sighted | Tania Browne | Science | The Guardian


----------



## Derrel (Dec 2, 2014)

Braineack said:
			
		

> there's a _very high_ risk your child will die during childbirth.  that's the biggest risk of anyone below the age of 10.  Solution: dont have kids.



I thought the solution would be : don't let your child be born as a child--but instead, only allow your child to be born _as an adolescent_...you know, sometime *after* the age of 10, when it's safer to be born...I dunno...just spitballing here, really


----------



## snowbear (Dec 2, 2014)

When my lovely wife gets the flu shot, she is achy for a day or so - less than the run of the disease.  I have had no side effects from the shot.  She has no spleen; that means the common cold, for her, is like the flu for others.  We will continue to get the shots.


----------



## snowbear (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> Well it does matter. For example, my whole family is getting rabies vaccines. One vaccine that I will happily take as the alternative is certain death.


Ouch.  My oldest had the series when he was three.


----------



## photoguy99 (Dec 2, 2014)

Just so everyone knows, Braineack's statistics are mostly wrong. You can look this stuff up yourself.

The pediatric (0-18 years) mortality rate from flu is certainly quite low. One in something like 800,000. But most of those are unvaccinated kids. Most of those are at-risk infants.

So, if you're gonna be around at-risk infants, it's probably a good idea. That's why medical personnel are required to get it. So that, within the hospital environment, there are fewer staff roaming around spreading flu. Generally speaking.

Also, most years for most people, the vaccine is simply quite effective. No, it does not prevent you from getting the flu. It does lower the odds that you will. If you get it every year, then over a period of, say, ten years, you can generally expect to get the flu less often.

That's a measured reality. The benefits are statistical, not absolute, but nonetheless real.

I got it when I had an infant. I don't any more because I am willing to tough out the flu in exchange for the convenience of not mucking about getting the vaccine.

ETA: roughly running the numbers, flu vaccinations seem to be saving the lives of about 100 kids (0-18 years of age) per year in the USA. That's just the first order effect of vaccinating the kids themselves. Much harder to estimate the second order effects of vaccinating nurses etc.

Still, that seems pretty worthwhile.


----------



## snerd (Dec 2, 2014)

runnah said:


> A bunch of photographers discussing medicine is like asking an engineer how to make love.


I'll have you know, I have the WebMD app on my smart phone!


----------



## Gary A. (Dec 2, 2014)

I have photographed physicians in action.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Dec 2, 2014)

EVERYBODY HAS AAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSS 



/Team America


----------



## pgriz (Dec 2, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> I have photographed physicians in action.



Pfttt.  I saw a show featuring actors who pretended to be doctors.  Now that's real credentials!


----------



## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

I've seen photographs of doctors.


----------



## snowbear (Dec 2, 2014)

I've seen a doctor photographing.


----------



## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

My sister's married to a doctor and I've taken photographs of them. I've also seen some pictures taken *by* doctors.


----------



## pgriz (Dec 2, 2014)

snowbear said:


> I've seen a doctor photographing.



So you're overqualified.  There was a "real" doctor involved.   Unless it was a doctor of divinity, or a Dortor of the performing arts.


----------



## snerd (Dec 2, 2014)

limr said:


> My sister's married to a doctor and I've taken photographs of them.*....*.


Hopefully not through the peephole!!


----------



## snerd (Dec 2, 2014)

Take my wife. Please!!!


----------



## limr (Dec 2, 2014)

snerd said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > My sister's married to a doctor and I've taken photographs of them.*....*.
> ...



GAH!



snerd said:


> Take my wife. Please!!!



You're so silly


----------



## snowbear (Dec 2, 2014)

pgriz said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen a doctor photographing.
> ...



He was a full-time convenience store clerk and part-time doctor.  I'm not really sure how that fits in.


----------



## BillM (Dec 2, 2014)

If you get sick just let the bad blood out, you'll be fine in no time


----------



## tirediron (Dec 2, 2014)

BillM said:


> If you get sick just let the bad blood out, you'll be fine in no time


Leeches anyone?


----------



## snerd (Dec 2, 2014)

Blood-letting LOL!!


----------



## Forkie (Dec 3, 2014)

paigew said:


> xzyragon said:
> 
> 
> > Vaccinations are preventative.  You have to have them in your system BEFORE you come into contact with the pathogen.  Getting a rabies shot after the fact is pointless because if you survive, you're immune...
> ...



Vaccinations ARE preventative.  There's no point getting a vaccination after infection because the infection will either kill you or or will immunise you against that disease next time.  I'd rather not take the gamble.

The common cold is not treatable because there are so many strains of it.  Each time you get a cold your body becomes immune to that strain by itself.  Any other colds you get will be a different strain.  Medicinal science cannot keep up with the ever-evolving common cold virus, which is why you can only get medicines to relieve the symptoms, not cure the cold.

Also, I just want to point out that in the UK; a country where rabies is extinct, if I am going on vacation to a country where rabies exists I get a course of rabies jabs before I go.  I have had rabies vaccines before visiting South Africa and the Dominican Republic.  I would also routinely get (depending on the country) Hepatitis A and B (often combined into one jab), Typhoid, Yellow Fever, TB.  I also take anti-Malarial medication throughout my stay if appropriate to that country.  

If you don't get the post-infection rabies vaccination quick enough after infection, you _*will*_ die.  The mortality rate of rabies patients is pretty much 100%.  Getting the vaccination before any possible infection stops you getting infected in the first place.


----------



## paigew (Dec 3, 2014)

Forkie said:


> Vaccinations ARE preventative.  There's no point getting a vaccination after infection because the infection will either kill you or or will immunise you against that disease next time.  I'd rather not take the gamble.
> 
> The common cold is not treatable because there are so many strains of it.  Each time you get a cold your body becomes immune to that strain by itself.  Any other colds you get will be a different strain.  Medicinal science cannot keep up with the ever-evolving common cold virus, which is why you can only get medicines to relieve the symptoms, not cure the cold.
> 
> ...



I am not claiming to be a rabies expert. But I have had a career with animals for over 12 years and have had many calls with animal control and know people who got the rabies vaccine AFTER possible exposure. I also live in Austin, where we have one of the worlds largest bat colonies (hello rabies anyone?). Rabies is something that is common in my area and we have several cases reported a year. Still they do not _routinely _vaccinate for rabies. Obviously I only know how things work here, in the US. But even the animal control officers are NOT vaccinated for rabies as a preventative measure. You will not see "rabies vaccine" on any required vaccine list.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 3, 2014)

all animals should be required to get the rabies vaccine. 

rabies IS 100% fatal if _untreated_.  but treatment is also 100% effective post-exposure.*



* please take this with a grain of salt until photoguy99 can let you guys know if I'm pulling sh1t out of my hat or not.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

Overread said:


> Technically its not just a personal problem.
> It's a social one since by not having the jab you allow the disease to remain alive within the community (as a sufferer or carrier). As such it remains a social problem.
> 
> In theory since a disease is a living organism if you can immunise the population it ends up with no-where to live. With no-where to live it dies - in theory we want to work toward repeating what we did with smallpox - immunise and drive it out.


 
That's a good theory.

In theory.

Smallpox and the flu are two different animals.  As I understand, smallpox was largely a "human only" disease, with no animal resivoir.  Remove it from the human population, and it disappears.  The flu on the other hand lives in many different kinds of animals including, but not limited to birds and pigs.  Birds do not carry human specific strains (although they can transmit to humans), but pigs do.  Unless you rid the world of birds and pigs, there is no way to stop the flu the same way we stopped smallpox.

And... if you take my bacon away, I will be mighty angry.

The flu is a small price to pay for bacon.


----------



## runnah (Dec 3, 2014)

paigew said:


> I am not claiming to be a rabies expert. But I have had a career with animals for over 12 years and have had many calls with animal control and know people who got the rabies vaccine AFTER possible exposure. I also live in Austin, where we have one of the worlds largest bat colonies (hello rabies anyone?). Rabies is something that is common in my area and we have several cases reported a year. Still they do not _routinely _vaccinate for rabies. Obviously I only know how things work here, in the US. But even the animal control officers are NOT vaccinated for rabies as a preventative measure. You will not see "rabies vaccine" on any required vaccine list.



So there are two types of shots associated with the rabies vaccine. There is the vaccine itself and then there are the immuoglobulin shots. The vaccine is given to help your body identify any possible rabies cells and eliminate them. The immunoglobulin shots are basically a syringe full of antibodies to help hunt down and kill any of the weakened cells. They also hurt like a bastard.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 3, 2014)

i think the fact that flu vaccines only carry 3-4 strains a year is a bit /r/conspiracy.


----------



## qleak (Dec 3, 2014)

paigew said:


> I am not claiming to be a rabies expert. But I have had a career with animals for over 12 years and have had many calls with animal control and know people who got the rabies vaccine AFTER possible exposure. I also live in Austin, where we have one of the worlds largest bat colonies (hello rabies anyone?). Rabies is something that is common in my area and we have several cases reported a year. Still they do not _routinely _vaccinate for rabies. Obviously I only know how things work here, in the US. But even the animal control officers are NOT vaccinated for rabies as a preventative measure. You will not see "rabies vaccine" on any required vaccine list.



Hmm well the CDC recommends it for people at high risk.

I'd never heard of the human preventative vaccine either, but I'm not an animal control officer,  veterinarian or bat guano researcher.

I have previously worked for the humane society but I primarily worked with animals that were in the shelter already and had been through a quarantine period and vaccinated.


----------



## waday (Dec 3, 2014)

qleak said:


> <snip>I'm not an animal control officer,  veterinarian or *bat guano researcher*.



The only thing I can think of now is Ace Ventura.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

qleak said:


> I'd never heard of the human preventative vaccine either, but I'm not an animal control officer,  veterinarian or bat guano researcher.


 
That sucks.  I hear bat guano researchers make bank, yo.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

limr said:


> My sister's married to a doctor and I've taken photographs of them. I've also seen some pictures taken *by* doctors.


 
This whole post is just hilariously creepy.


----------



## Designer (Dec 3, 2014)

Braineack said:


> i think the fact that flu vaccines only carry 3-4 strains a year is a bit /r/conspiracy.


If they tried to produce a vaccine that contained ALL of the known variants:

1. It would be horribly expensive.
2. They would probably still miss a few.
3. It would still have to be repeated every year.

The medical community likes to bank on statistics.  If they can show that MORE people would NOT get the flu than got the flu, then the vaccine is "worth the risks".  

As long as the chance of risk remains at a low percentage.


----------



## qleak (Dec 3, 2014)

Designer said:


> If they tried to produce a vaccine that contained ALL of the known variants:
> 
> 1. It would be horribly expensive.
> 2. They would probably still miss a few.
> ...



Correct I would add:

4) influenza mutates quickly enough that even if the vaccine covered all the variants when they produced it there would still likely be a few new strains that wouldn't be covered.


----------



## Braineack (Dec 3, 2014)

outlaw mutants.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

Braineack said:


> outlaw mutants.


 
That doesn't work.

You obviously haven't see the X-Men movies.


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## pgriz (Dec 3, 2014)

It's actually more complicated than that.  We usually think of cell reproduction involving the copying of genes to make new genes.  But the process is far from perfect, and the cells have evolved a variety of mechanisms to destroy bad copies.  However, errors do slip through, and the daughter gene may now have an incorrect sequence that was not caught by the checking mechanisms.  If that sequence is in a non-coding part of the gene, then it may not be "expressed" (translated into a protein, or functioning as a regulatory strand).  If it is in an expressed portion, then again it may not necessarily cause problems if the code change resulted in a similar amino acid being incorporated into the protein.  Not all gene codes result in an amino acid being selected for production, so a mis-copy may mean that an amino acid subunit is omitted from the protein that the gene codes for.  

Other ways mutations can happen include damage to the genetic material (either DNA or RNA) by UV, ionizing radiation, oxidation, or chemical attack, by damage to the transcribing units, or by the insertion of gene sequences by viral or bacterial infective agents.  For a mutation to be inheritable, it needs to happen within the stem cells that reside in the gonads (either testes or ovaries) from which the sperm or eggs are derived.  For example, the herpex simplex virus incorporates its genome into the nucleus of certain nerve cells, and once the original infection is over, the virus is latent (hidden) as a gene sequence in the nerve cell.  However, from time to time, those gene sections may become expressed, and new viral proteins (and viruses) get produced.  Since the infection does NOT happen in the gonad stem cells, those will not pass on the herpes simplex virus to the children.  

Some genetic engineering tools use the ability of viruses to insert their genes, where the desired genes are incorporated into a virus-like assembly which is then allowed to infect the target cell.  However, most gene insertions are not functional, as the insertion mechanism is somewhat random, and there has to be a winnowing out of the resulting progeny to find the one(s) where the gene was inserted in the right place.  

Braineack, we're all mutants.  So is every living thing on this planet.


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## limr (Dec 3, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Braineack, we're all mutants.  So is every living thing on this planet.



I KNEW IT!!!


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## Braineack (Dec 3, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Braineack, we're all mutants.  So is every living thing on this planet.


I need a better way for people to be able to distinguish my hyperbole from my actual thoughts.


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## pgriz (Dec 3, 2014)

Braineack said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack, we're all mutants.  So is every living thing on this planet.
> ...



A high proportion of emoticons is usually a good tip-off...


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## Braineack (Dec 3, 2014)

Then people might confuse me for e.rose.


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## pgriz (Dec 3, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Then people might confuse me for e.rose.



I could think of worse comparisons.  

It almost goes with out saying that the "seriousness" of the post diminishes proportionally to the ratio of emoticons to actual words.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 3, 2014)

I shot a machine gun (legally) owned by a doctor. That was cool. Didn't know it was fully automatic until I pulled the trigger, and the doctor laughed at my reaction.


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## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> I shot a machine gun (legally) owned by a doctor. That was cool. Didn't know it was fully automatic until I pulled the trigger, and the doctor laughed at my reaction.


 
Dangerously hilarious.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 3, 2014)

If it makes everyone feel better, I kept it aimed downrange and didn't kill anyone that time.


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## Stradawhovious (Dec 3, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> If it makes everyone feel better, I kept it aimed downrange and didn't kill anyone that time.


 
Once you mention "gun" there are certain people that just plain won't feel beter about it.

Welcome to the internets!


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 3, 2014)

I should've known by today this would be quite off track... lol Minicoop maybe you're better off aiming a camera at things!

Working with kids I'd get a flu shot at work but I don't think they were required - obviously our employer made them available because we'd likely be around a lot of sick kids and didn't need to have the flu getting passed around if it could be prevented. So I remember having had the flu _years_ ago and seems like I was off work an entire week.

There have been plenty of other requirements for the type work I've done, getting a background check, taking first aid/infant CPR, etc. etc. so with some jobs there may be requirements - I guess someone would need to decide if they wanted to work there and meet the requirements or move on to something/someplace else.

From what I understand even if you'd get the flu, the shot would keep it to a milder case of it. I suppose most reasonably healthy adults may not need to worry about it too much but in a job working with sick people or kids I can see why it could be necessary to get one. 

Wasn't there a childhood disease that hadn't been seen in years that came back? can't remember what it was, something that was thought to have been eliminated that doctors were seeing in kids again? Seems like unless there's a medical reason not to, that vaccines are a good preventive measure.


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## snerd (Dec 3, 2014)

At my age, I'll take all the advantages I can get. I trust my doctor to steer me right. He, my dentist and I go shooting together! I won't say what, as to not start any butthurt. 


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## limr (Dec 3, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Wasn't there a childhood disease that hadn't been seen in years that came back? can't remember what it was, something that was thought to have been eliminated that doctors were seeing in kids again? Seems like unless there's a medical reason not to, that vaccines are a good preventive measure.



You might be thinking of whooping cough. Apparently measles, mumps, and chicken pox are also seeing a resurgence.

When I started working at the college, no immunizations or proof of such were required. When I started taking classes, same thing. The first semester I wanted to take _two_ classes, however, I had to show proof of immunization. 

While I can understand and support a requirement for certain professions to immunize their employees, the school policy here seems random and overreaching.


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## bc_steve (Dec 3, 2014)

I cant make the 10 pages of reading but I have never gotten the flu shot and have no plans to.  The consequence is just not very serious.  If I get the flu, oh well I will get better in a few days.

I have had vaccinations for serious things, like tetanus etc.


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## paigew (Dec 4, 2014)

Funny that I am watching a news story right now saying they (CDC) chose the wrong strains for the vaccine this year


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

paigew said:


> Funny that I am watching a news story right now saying they (CDC) chose the wrong strains for the vaccine this year



at least you're now protected if you travel to China last year.


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## Designer (Dec 4, 2014)

paigew said:


> Funny that I am watching a news story right now saying they (CDC) chose the wrong strains for the vaccine this year



"Funny" doesn't begin to make amends.

"Funny" doesn't feed the bulldog.

"Funny" if it weren't so sad.

I'm waiting to see if the CDC starts counting up the dead recipients of the wrong vaccine.  

Take vaccine.  Roll dice.  But wait!  Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Oh, and Paige, just to make it clear; I am NOT criticizing your use of the word "funny".


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## photoguy99 (Dec 4, 2014)

What? I can't make out what you're going for here.


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## Designer (Dec 4, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> What? I can't make out what you're going for here.


My bad.

I was trying to join in the conversation.


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## photoguy99 (Dec 4, 2014)

Well I get that but I can't actually figure out what you're trying to say. You seem to be anti-CDC but I'm not even sure you're not being ironic.


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

The CDC is great, when you need to prep for a zombie apocalypse.

not so great to prevent the spread of ebola to the US.


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## Designer (Dec 4, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Well I get that but I can't actually figure out what you're trying to say. You seem to be anti-CDC but I'm not even sure you're not being ironic.


Yes.


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## Stradawhovious (Dec 4, 2014)

Man...  I LOVE the interwebz. 

LULZ!


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## Tinderbox (UK) (Dec 4, 2014)

I just heard on the news that this years flu-shot might not be very effective, they must have picked the wrong virus`s 12 months ago to make this years batch.

John.


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## photoguy99 (Dec 4, 2014)

It's a guessing game, and all they can do is take their best shot. Over any ten year period, they save a bunch of lives, and improve quality of life pretty widely.


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

we should require IDs for voting.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 4, 2014)

We should require film for photography.


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## Designer (Dec 4, 2014)

We should require scientists working for the government to pass a basic skills exam.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 4, 2014)

We should require the government to give me things like an M1 Abrams tank.


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> We should require the government to give me things like an M1 Abrams tank.



but if youre able to protect yourself, how can they justify themselves?


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 4, 2014)

Easy. Their reason for being is giving me stuff that you pay for.


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Easy. Their reason for being is giving me stuff that you pay for.



stop making money and your dreams will come true--today.


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## Tinderbox (UK) (Dec 4, 2014)

The chief medical officer of the US should not have an expired medical licence, Dr NO!

John.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 4, 2014)

Braineack said:


> minicoop1985 said:
> 
> 
> > Easy. Their reason for being is giving me stuff that you pay for.
> ...



If I did quit making money, I'd probably quality for disability (rapid cycling bipolar disorder has screwed me out of jobs in the past).


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## TiffanyW (Dec 4, 2014)

Even when I was in the Navy I was never allowed to take the flu shot, because of an auto-immune disease and severe anemia. So, either way I lose. I can't take the flu shot because my immune system is so crappy that I end up with the flu a few days after the shot. And I can't avoid catching it because people are gross and can't cover their nose when they sneeze or wash their hands after they use the bathroom and then put their gross germs all over everything they touch.

So hey, it's pretty much a guaranteed 3-4 days of sickness for me, so what's the point?


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## Braineack (Dec 4, 2014)

require all people to wash hands and cover mouths when they sneeze.


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## photoguy99 (Dec 4, 2014)

My sister who is also immunocompromised has disciplined herself to Never Touch Her Face, except in the privacy of her own home, after washing her hands. She claims it has made a gigantic difference in the rate at which she gets sick.

That's one person's story, so, take it with appropriate seasoning.


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2014)

Decry that ALL human beings are now US citizens, and that all US citizens must get the flu shot.


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## Designer (Dec 5, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Decry that ALL human beings...



Decrying, sir.

If I don't decry, I'll laugh.


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2014)

if you dont take the flu shot you'll dedie.


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2014)

it's probably a good thing people aren't required to get the flu vaccine and get a false sense of security....

New Virus Means Deadlier Flu Season Is Possible - Slashdot



> Donald McNeil writes in the NYT that this year's flu season may be deadlier than usual becausethis year's flu vaccine is a relatively poor match to a new virus that is now circulating. "Flu is unpredictable, but what we've seen thus far is concerning," says Dr. Thomas R. Frieden. According to the CDC, five U.S. children have died from flu-related complications so far this season. Four of them were infected with influenza A viruses, including three cases of H3N2 infections. The new H3 subtype first appeared overseas in March but because it was not found in many samples in the United States until September, it is now too late to change the vaccine. Because of the increased danger from the H3 strain — and because B influenza strains can also cause serious illness — the CDC recommends that patients with asthma, diabetes or lung or heart problems see a doctor at the first sign of a possible flu, and that doctors quickly prescribe antivirals like Tamiflu or Relenza. "H3N2 viruses tend to be associated with more severe seasons," says Frieden. "The rate of hospitalization and death can be twice as high or more in flu seasons when H3 doesn't predominate."


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## photoguy99 (Dec 5, 2014)

Yes, because a false sense of security is, as we all know, 100% fatal.


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2014)

after we make flu shots required, we should protest the 1% and corporatism.


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## Designer (Dec 5, 2014)

Now where did I put that Guy Faukes mask?


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## Braineack (Dec 5, 2014)

you didnt see the irony in that?


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## limr (Dec 5, 2014)

The increasingly overt political jabs are getting tiresome.


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## pixmedic (Dec 5, 2014)

i thought all this political stuff got covered with the mod warnings in the war picture post. 
next political statement gets a vacation.


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## runnah (Dec 5, 2014)

All done folks.


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