# Crop, then sharpen OR Sharpen, then crop?



## Peeb (Feb 13, 2016)

Does the image come out the same either way, or is it superior to order it one way or the other?


----------



## The_Traveler (Feb 13, 2016)

denoise then sharpen, crop anytime


----------



## DarkShadow (Feb 13, 2016)

For me the last thing I do is sharpen no matter what editing I do,Especially if some noise reduction is needed I would not what to sharpen the noise  then try to remove it later.I think everyone has there own work flow for what works best for them.


----------



## Vtec44 (Feb 13, 2016)

Crop then sharpen.  IMHO, it's more efficient that way.


----------



## unpopular (Feb 13, 2016)

image quality wise it does not matter. radius is variable by feature size, not total file size. I usually crop before I start anything, after I rotate and correct for perspective. but it does not matter.


----------



## jaomul (Feb 14, 2016)

If you crop first, then you have only the elements you want to in a photo to concentrate on with the rest of your post processing, which is probably less distracting and enabling more focus in what you want (pardon the pun)


----------



## Peeb (Feb 14, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> denoise then sharpen, crop anytime


That makes sense- thanks!


----------



## Peeb (Feb 14, 2016)

DarkShadow said:


> For me the last thing I do is sharpen no matter what editing I do,Especially if some noise reduction is needed I would not what to sharpen the noise  then try to remove it later.I think everyone has there own work flow for what works best for them.


Seems logical!


----------



## Peeb (Feb 14, 2016)

Vtec44 said:


> Crop then sharpen.  IMHO, it's more efficient that way.


I suppose you can better see what 'final' impact your degree of sharpening will have to apply it post-crop.  Yeah, I can see that.


----------



## Peeb (Feb 14, 2016)

unpopular said:


> image quality wise it does not matter. radius is variable by feature size, not total file size. I usually crop before I start anything, after I rotate and correct for perspective. but it does not matter.


I suppose that's what I've traditionally done, but never really thought about the logic of things.


----------



## Peeb (Feb 14, 2016)

jaomul said:


> If you crop first, then you have only the elements you want to in a photo to concentrate on with the rest of your post processing, which is probably less distracting and enabling more focus in what you want (pardon the pun)


I'm seeing a pattern here!


----------



## KmH (Feb 14, 2016)

I start my editing in my Raw converter (ACR) and one of my initial steps is global capture sharpening and doing global noise reduction.
I don't crop in ACR because I prefer the Crop tool in Photoshop.
But cropping is one of the first things I do I in Photoshop if I am going to crop.

In Photoshop after cropping I do whatever, if any, local sharpening I want done in the image.
I do a last global sharpening if the image is destined for print (output sharpening).


----------



## WayneF (Feb 14, 2016)

Sharpening affects and changes the pixels at the edges that should be sharp.  If you then resample that photo smaller, you lose most pixels, and lose this effect. 

Cropping trims off edges, but does not affect the remaining pixels, so it won't matter when cropping is done, but sharpening should be done after any resulting resampling, and after most tonal processing. 

Short bottom line, sharpening should be done as last operation.

This is often true of cropping too, since cropping must be done to fit the paper AFTER the decision to print 4x6 or 5x7 or 8x10, etc.  Just saying, if you crop your master to 4x6 shape, then attempts to later print 8x10 may not have enough side room remaining.  Vice versa may not have enough height remaining. So I would say, do not sharpen or crop your master copy at all, not until after the final size goal is defined (specifically meaning,  each and every final size goal to be implemented. as last operation).

A cropping exception could be raw processing,  since all edits are lossless, all the original  pixels remain and can be recovered. Still, you crop for every size to be printed.


----------



## JoeW (Feb 14, 2016)

First, I suspect that is may have some variation depending upon which program you're using and if we're talking an individual photo or batch processing.  That caveat noted...

I always crop first.  Several reasons:
--I agree with Wayne above.  
--you can sharpen, do other edits, then crop and go "oh crap, once I crop it's too pixelated and I don't like it without the crop."  In short, the crop determines what is going to be in the picture.  Start with that.  Once you've done the crop, you can then look at it and see if you want to sharpen the entire photo, only sharpen  specific areas, use some type of filter and possible blur some areas.  But the crop determines what the basic picture is you're going to be creating for the viewer.
--The crop changes the focus of the photo (and thus the edits you decide you need to do).  You might do a lot of sharpening, then look at the photo and crop it so it shows and abstract (shadow and light) where sharpening wasn't necessary.


----------



## Dikkie (Feb 15, 2016)

KmH said:


> I start my editing in my Raw converter (ACR) and one of my initial steps is global capture sharpening and doing global noise reduction.
> I don't crop in ACR because I prefer the Crop tool in Photoshop.
> But cropping is one of the first things I do I in Photoshop if I am going to crop.
> 
> ...


Same here.
However, I use GIMP instead of Photoshop.
In general, I follow the same workflow.


----------



## dennybeall (Feb 15, 2016)

I also usually Crop first just to reduce the amount of work the pc and I have while making any adjustments. Sharpen is always last.


----------



## JacaRanda (Feb 15, 2016)

Generally, I am likely to import 100's of images at once.  In those cases, I am using a preset with several adjustments including sharpening to all the images.
If it's just a few, and I remember, I would definitely crop first.


----------



## Dao (Feb 16, 2016)

I do most of my POST with LR.  And I always just work from the top to the bottom from the tool bar for adjustment.  And LR by default put crop tool at the top, so I usually just crop/rotate the photo first.


----------



## Dikkie (Feb 17, 2016)

The case where you have the moiré effect is always tricky.

Then you have to blur first, crop, sharpen again.


----------



## unpopular (Feb 17, 2016)

Dikkie said:


> The case where you have the moiré effect is always tricky.
> 
> Then you have to blur first, crop, sharpen again.



Cropping, provided that the image is not being resized or rotated as well, will have no affect on moire whatsoever.

Cropping alone does not affect the pixels within the crop region. These pixels stay the same as before, moire and all.

The crop tool does permit resizing and rotating though which will affect things like moire.


----------



## unpopular (Feb 17, 2016)

Dao said:


> I do most of my POST with LR.  And I always just work from the top to the bottom from the tool bar for adjustment.  And LR by default put crop tool at the top, so I usually just crop/rotate the photo first.



Does LR even actually crop the image? I though t this was a "soft" adjustment.


----------



## Dao (Feb 18, 2016)

unpopular said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> > I do most of my POST with LR.  And I always just work from the top to the bottom from the tool bar for adjustment.  And LR by default put crop tool at the top, so I usually just crop/rotate the photo first.
> ...


That's a good question!  I honesty do not know since it all the adjustment are non-distructive.


----------



## Streets (Feb 18, 2016)

By all means, Crop first and then apply the magic.


----------



## Ido (Mar 2, 2016)

Are we talking about a pixel editor (such as Photoshop), or a metadata-based raw editor (such as Lightroom)? If the latter, the order in which you do things has no effect on the outcome, because the software will apply the changes in whichever order it was programmed to. The changes form a picture when you export the image, or when the software regenerates the preview; then it takes all the changes you've made, and applies them in the order it was programmed to.


----------



## The_Traveler (Mar 2, 2016)

Before I crop, I always try to correct any  perspective distortion, then I know exactly how much image I am left with.


----------



## WayneF (Mar 2, 2016)

Ido said:


> Are we talking about a pixel editor (such as Photoshop), or a metadata-based raw editor (such as Lightroom)? If the latter, the order in which you do things has no effect on the outcome, because the software will apply the changes in whichever order it was programmed to. The changes form a picture when you export the image, or when the software regenerates the preview; then it takes all the changes you've made, and applies them in the order it was programmed to.




I would assume the raw software is smart enough to KNOW to crop and process and resample first, and sharpen last.
Sharpening first seems a dumb thing to do if you are then going to follow it with resampling.  Resampling seems a dumb thing to do it you are going to follow it with cropping.


----------



## The_Traveler (Mar 2, 2016)

Assume anything at your own risk.

This is how the adjustments to the file are stored in the XMP sidecar file.
I image that they are processed in this order.

 crsrocessVersion="6.7"
   crs:WhiteBalance="As Shot"
   crs:AutoWhiteVersion="134348800"
   crs:Temperature="5350"
   crs:Tint="+7"
   crs:Saturation="0"
   crs:Sharpness="25"
   crs:LuminanceSmoothing="0"
   crs:ColorNoiseReduction="25"
   crs:VignetteAmount="0"
   crs:ShadowTint="0"
   crs:RedHue="0"
   crs:RedSaturation="0"
   crs:GreenHue="0"
   crs:GreenSaturation="0"
   crs:BlueHue="0"
   crs:BlueSaturation="0"
   crs:Vibrance="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentRed="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentOrange="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentYellow="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentGreen="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentAqua="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentBlue="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentPurple="0"
   crs:HueAdjustmentMagenta="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentRed="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentOrange="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentYellow="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentGreen="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentAqua="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentBlue="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentPurple="0"
   crs:SaturationAdjustmentMagenta="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentRed="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentOrange="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentYellow="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentGreen="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentAqua="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentBlue="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentPurple="0"
   crs:LuminanceAdjustmentMagenta="0"
   crs:SplitToningShadowHue="0"
   crs:SplitToningShadowSaturation="0"
   crs:SplitToningHighlightHue="0"
   crs:SplitToningHighlightSaturation="0"
   crs:SplitToningBalance="0"
   crsarametricShadows="0"
   crsarametricDarks="0"
   crsarametricLights="0"
   crsarametricHighlights="0"
   crsarametricShadowSplit="25"
   crsarametricMidtoneSplit="50"
   crsarametricHighlightSplit="75"
   crs:SharpenRadius="+1.0"
   crs:SharpenDetail="25"
   crs:SharpenEdgeMasking="0"
   crsostCropVignetteAmount="0"
   crs:GrainAmount="0"
   crs:ColorNoiseReductionDetail="50"
   crs:ColorNoiseReductionSmoothness="50"
   crs:LensProfileEnable="0"
   crs:LensManualDistortionAmount="0"
   crserspectiveVertical="0"
   crserspectiveHorizontal="0"
   crserspectiveRotate="0.0"
   crserspectiveScale="100"
   crserspectiveAspect="0"
   crserspectiveUpright="0"
   crs:AutoLateralCA="0"
   crs:Exposure2012="-0.77"
   crs:Contrast2012="0"
   crs:Highlights2012="0"
   crs:Shadows2012="0"
   crs:Whites2012="0"
   crs:Blacks2012="0"
   crs:Clarity2012="0"
   crsefringePurpleAmount="0"
   crsefringePurpleHueLo="30"
   crsefringePurpleHueHi="70"
   crsefringeGreenAmount="0"
   crsefringeGreenHueLo="40"
   crsefringeGreenHueHi="60"
   crs:ConvertToGrayscale="False"
   crs:ToneCurveName="Medium Contrast"
   crs:ToneCurveName2012="Lin


----------



## GHK (Mar 11, 2016)

It probably doesn't make much difference in this instance, but there are many cases when it does.
This being so, the advice to leave sharpening right to the end is very sound; make it a routine procedure.
GHK


----------

