# iphone5s vs mirrorless? ( question )



## Jixr

So here is the deal.

I have my T3i with my red ringed lens's and such, that I absolutely love.

And as you all know its not so easy to have it on hand every second of the day.

So I got to thinking about looking intro mirrorless cameras.

My goal was to find a camera that is as portable and quick as my Iphone5s, but has better image quality.
Something I can pull out of pocket, snap a pic, and continue about on my way. Something that I can bring into places that ban professional 'removable lens' cameras. something I can clip on a belt loop or toss in a bag without worry.

I don't want to bother with point and shoots, because even the nicest ones have one flaw, you have to wait for the barrel to extend and open, and zoom is terribly slow. by the time they turn on, ( even the new figi and canon g16 ) i've already snapped a few pics with my iphone.

But everything I've found that I like, is in the $500+ range, and putting a prime lens on it ( which I want ) is about another $200+ for a lens.

The cheapest option I've found is the new Pentax q7 ( yes it a P&S sensor i know ) with the prime lens ( body $350 on ebay, parted kit, and the lens is $200 ) ( retail value $500 for a new kit +$200 for the lens )I absolutely love the q7, but the price has me questioning its ( and mirrorless in general ) worth.

But is spending $500+ for a new camera system really that much better than a top of the line smartphone?
When also I could use that $500+ for a new lens for my big cam. 

Obviously you get raw files, manual controls, and lens options, but to me, it seems like a lot of money for something that will just be a pocket camera, with my phone in the other pocket. 


( similarly, my in law is asking for advice about a new small camera to shoot her son and make small prints, i told her might as well just get a new phone, as any decent small camera for shooting an active 3 year old will be as much as a new phone )


Opinions, thoughts ideas?


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## robbins.photo

Jixr said:


> But is spending $500+ for a new camera system really that much better than a top of the line smartphone?
> When also I could use that $500+ for a new lens for my big cam.



For me?  No, I wouldn't spend that much on a mirrorless just so I could have something on hand that takes slightly better pics than my cell phone but lacks the IQ of my DSLR.  But thing is, that's me - so the question is, would you use it enough to really benefit from it?


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## TheFantasticG

The iPhone 5s without contract isn't cheap either. Last I looked it was over $500. 

That Pentax doesn't look bad on paper... But why not just stick with a smartphone instead of investing In another system? I mean, just quick snaps my iPhone has been good enough to the point I haven't bothered looking into a small pocketable camera.


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## Jixr

( well not iphone5s specifically, but i got one on upgrade, and so far i've been very impressed with it, but typically, most high end smartphones ( off contract ) run around $500 or so, and that is my budget for another camera.

I do run my own website, and I like street and everyday photography, and a small camera would be useful to me, I dont know if its $500 useful though.
Though in situations, I do wish I had a small fast prime instead of my phone. 
The thing is ( at least with the iphones ) the jpg image processing is done in a way that is nearly untwekable in lightroom5.

I go to alot of concerts and shows in small venues ( bars, clubs, etc ) and most of them will tell you that you can't bring in a big cam, or if they see you use it they will throw you out. ( which i've nearly been thrown out before )

Though I can say I have made cell phones work well in venues as well. and I go to the downtown area a lot, and love bringing my camera, but thats not always possible.


I suppose I could always buy one, test it for a weekend, and if i'm not happy I could always return it. my local camera shop is fine with letting me put in my sd card to check the IQ at home, but photos taken in a store are hard to compare to real life situations.


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## The_Traveler

interchangeable lens?
Better focal length?


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## Ron Evers

Here is a package that will cost you $280.

Olympus PEN Mini E-PM1 Micro Digital Camera (Black) - Factory Demo includes Full 1 Year Warranty
$120




Olympus M Zuiko MZD 17mm F 2 8 F2 8 Micro 4 3 Pen Ed Didital Lens in Packaging 050332177222 | eBay
$160


Here is what it looks like in hand:


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## Jixr

hm... seems a bit basic, but that is a pretty cheap price. I don't know much about the cam, i'll have to read up on it.
EDIT: its an older model, i'm a bit worried the start time would be kinda slow.


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## Ron Evers

Jixr said:


> hm... seems a bit basic, but that is a pretty cheap price. I don't know much about the cam, i'll have to read up on it.
> EDIT: its an older model, i'm a bit worried the start time would be kinda slow.



Yes, it is an older model & now the E-PM2 has more features.  I just checked the start-up time with the 17/2.8 lens mounted & it was about a second, certainly less than two.  

The E-PM2 body may be had for $332, see this link:

New Boxed Olympus Pen Mini E PM2 EPM2 Digital Camera Body Only White 050332184329 | eBay


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## bhop

Used Fuji X100

nevermind.. it's still selling in the 600-800 range.


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## vipgraphx

SONY NEX 5 and 6 are going to be great cameras for you. I just bought a NEX 6 to test out and see if I like it enough to replace my DSLR completely. Keep in mind I came from a D700 which I loved!! The sony NEX 6  is really really good, especially if you can find a used one like CL or Ebay. The new pancake 16-50mm keeps the camera small and takes great pictures out of the box. It may be a bit out of your budget new but used I think you might be able to find one if not look at the newer model NEX 5 supposedly same sensor as the NEX 6 with less bells and whistles.

Check out my thread on the NEX 6, I am doing a side by side comparison to the D7100. Maybe that will help you out.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ducts/346871-nikon-d7100-vs-sony-nex-6-a.html


Mirrorless cameras are coming along and the Sony is supposed to be the leader in that area.


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## Kolia

The NEX camera are still fairly big. 

I like the Olympus suggestion. No experience with it tho. 

I really like my Sony DSC-RX100m2. Both RX100 are excellent compact. Full manual, RAW files, fast lens and quick to boot up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nmoody

I personally just use an iPhone for when I dont "plan" on taking pictures. It does the trick for when I am not prepared.

For my DSLR I use a nice backpack for carrying around what I need. Hand bags are too much of a burden. I have two backpacks to choose from.

1. A bigger one for when I need a lot of stuff Amazon.com: Manfrotto MB SB390-7BC VELOCE VII Backpack -Champagne: Camera & Photo
2. A smaller one where I only need the basics. http://www.amazon.com/Samsonite-Lug...d=1386955117&sr=8-1&keywords=samsonite+camera


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## brunerww

Hi Jixr - there's no need to buy into a new system.  You can get a Canon EOS M for $334 with a 22mm f2 lens.

This camera is a fraction of the size of your DSLR, will fit in your pocket (with the kit lens) and will give you still and video image quality as good as your T3i.  In fact, it has several features your T3i lacks (e.g., video autofocus, LCD touchscreen, a 22 minute continuous video clip length limit instead of 12 minutes).

With a $119 Canon EF to EOS-M adapter (or, if you want to save a little money, a $60 third party adapter), it will be fully compatible with your current Canon EF mount lenses.

The EOS M is on closeout, so you may want to pull the trigger on this deal soon.

Hope this is helpful and best of the holidays!

Bill


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## Ron Evers

Before you pull the trigger, check out this link.  

Canon EOS M Review - Watch CNET's Video Review


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## manaheim

Jixr said:


> hm... seems a bit basic, but that is a pretty cheap price. I don't know much about the cam, i'll have to read up on it.
> EDIT: its an older model, i'm a bit worried the start time would be kinda slow.



You started this with asking whether or not an iPhone would be an acceptable replacement for a camera... and now you're worried about older model cameras and startup times being a problem?

I think you should sit down and evaluate your requirements a little more closely. This smacks to me of not having thought everything through all the way.

I don't say this to be harsh.


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## brunerww

Ron Evers said:


> Before you pull the trigger, check out this link.
> 
> Canon EOS M Review - Watch CNET's Video Review



Ron - That review may be a little dated.  Looks like Lori shot it before the price came down $300, before the firmware update that increased still and video autofocus speed (2.0.2), before the availability of the new 11-22mm EF-M lens, before the price reduction on the OEM EF to EF-M adapter from $199 to $120 and certainly before the introduction of the $60 third party adapter.

In my view, the value proposition for this camera has changed significantly in the last few months.  At around $600, with a $200 adapter, I recommended strongly against it - but at around $330, with a $60 adapter, it has become a great backup body for Canon shooters.

Cheers,

Bill


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## Jixr

manaheim said:


> Jixr said:
> 
> 
> 
> You started this with asking whether or not an iPhone would be an acceptable replacement for a camera... and now you're worried about older model cameras and startup times being a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand, my main issue with some of the mirrorless systems, is for me to justify it, it needs to be faster to use than my phone.
> If it takes me 2 seconds to open the camera app on my phone, I don't see the point in a pocket camera that is considerably slower to use.
> 
> Since i'm looking for a small cam to have on me all the time, it needs to be as fast to use as my iphone, if its slow to turn on and take a picture, I might as well just
> keep using my iphone.
> 
> I'm still really really really really looking at the pentax q7, though as far as the Canon M goes, there is a used one in my area with the 22mm prime for $275, i've not used one personally ( the cam store returned them all to cannon because they were crap ) and even with the price drops, the firmware updates, and such, i'm still a bit worried.
Click to expand...


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## brunerww

Jixr said:


> ...my main issue with some of the mirrorless systems, is for me to justify it, it needs to be faster to use than my phone.
> If it takes me 2 seconds to open the camera app on my phone, I don't see the point in a pocket camera that is considerably slower to use.
> 
> Since i'm looking for a small cam to have on me all the time, it needs to be as fast to use as my iphone, if its slow to turn on and take a picture, I might as well just
> keep using my iphone.
> 
> I'm still really really really really looking at the pentax q7, though as far as the Canon M goes, there is a used one in my area with the 22mm prime for $275, i've not used one personally ( the cam store returned them all to cannon because they were crap ) and even with the price drops, the firmware updates, and such, i'm still a bit worried.



Hi Jixr - Pentax Q power on to first shot is pretty slow at ~3.7 seconds (please see Pentax Q Review - Performance) - while EOS M power on to first shot is a full second faster at ~2.7 seconds (please see Canon EOS M Review - Performance)

If you want an even faster pocketable camera, you'll generally have to pay more for something like a $999 Olympus E-P5 (~0.9 sec) or an $828 Panasonic GX7 (~0.9 sec).

As for buying a camera locally for $275 without a warranty versus online for $330 with a warranty and a return policy - I recommend paying the extra $55 for peace of mind.  You can always send it back if the camera is too slow.

Again, hope this is helpful!

Bill


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## manaheim

^ I do believe I have been mis-attributed.


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## Derrel

Isn't the 11-22mm lens for the Canon EOS-M the exact same lens that Canon will NOT SELL in the USA? Canon 11-22mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM | Sans Mirror ? mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan

The link provided above is for 11-22 lenses shipping from Japan, and South Korea, among other places.Cnet's review of the EOS-M was written before dealers had to desperately try to fire-sale an exceptionally poor-selling camera. A camera cursed with a poor AF system and lukewarm Canon, USA support is indeed a better value when it's fire-sale priced, rather than ridiculously over-priced. Fer sure.

Canon Gets it Wrong With the EOS M | Sans Mirror ? mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan

"All of which makes me wonder why the EOS M was even sold in the US. *If I were a dealer, I'd demand that Canon take back any inventory of the product I had obtained*, because effectively Canon is saying "we're selling a 'system camera' that you can't actually make into a system."

There's a need to help sell cameras that are piling up unsold in dealer warehouses. The camera, and the adapter, have effectively lost 50% or more off of their retail price in the last year. So yeah...it's definitely a bargain table "system".


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## AlanKlein

You're wasting your time with mirroless cameraas.  While small, they are too large to have with you all the time.  I had one and i sits at home.  You can't wear it on your belt like an iPhone or P&S.  At this stage, most P&S's will give you better photos than iPhones especially if you need flash or are shooting at night or in darker places.


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## Kolia

So what's the budget here ?  

Because we jump from 250$-800$ every other post.

Remember that as far as timing to a first shoot, it's boot up + zoom + focus that counts.

Have you been out to a store to play with any of these cameras ?


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## Steve5D

I've got an iPhone 5S. I really like it. Yes, it takes great pictures.

For a phone...


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## Derrel

Steve5D said:


> I've got an iPhone 5S. I really like it. Yes, it takes great pictures.
> 
> For a phone...



30 awesome Instagram accounts you need to follow | ITworld

12,13 years ago, even the outdated iPhone 4 would have been priced at $1,999.95 and been classified as a "high-resolution digital imaging system, capable of shooting high-definition stills and video."

What, exactly, is your point??? Have you ever shared images or video in real-time, to social media sites?


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## Steve5D

Derrel said:


> 30 awesome Instagram accounts you need to follow | ITworld



I think I might have an Instagram account. Maybe. If I do, I haven't seen it in some time...



> 12,13 years ago, even the outdated iPhone 4 would have been  priced at $1,999.95 and been classified as a "high-resolution digital  imaging system, capable of shooting high-definition stills and  video."



Well, Hell, lemme' fire up the Way Back Machine and we can all have a big ol' time impressing the Y2K crowd with our iPhones.

The  iPhone wasn't around until 2007, so trying to say what it would be in  1999 is pretty pointless. An AMC Pacer is pretty much a POS, but it  would run circles around a Model T. Using your logic, though, that makes the AMC  Pacer a damn fine automobile...



> What, exactly, is your point??? Have you ever shared images or video in real-time, to social media sites?



Um, yeah. 

So what? The OP hasn't said a word about wanting to do that but, by all means, go ahead and run off on an unrelated tangent. Those are usually pretty entertaining...

The fact that I've used it to post photos to social media sites in no way suggests that I think it produces better images than an actual camera. I don't believe it does. All it means is that the iPhone allows me to immediately post photos and videos, and nothing more. That ability does not, in any way, shape or form, translate to a better image.

Furthermore, I never said the iPhone takes bad photos. In fact it takes the best photos I've seen come out of a smart phone...


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## Jixr

*OP HERE

*let me clean up some questions
My Budget: No more than $500 for a kit ( can always buy more lens's later if I like the system ) 

I'm not interested in the Pentax Q or the Q10, mainly the Q7, which to one poster was replying about the slowness of the original Q, the Q7 is pretty quick to boot up and use. Not as fast as my iphone, but It should be quick enough. ( but some of the cheapest models i've tested have been horribly slow ) ( note the q7 is newer and faster than the q10 )

As far as instant uploading to social media, etc. I'm not that worried about that. If I'm out on location and want to upload something to a social site, I'll generally snap a pic with my phone and post a link to my website so they can see the other images once I edit and upload them. i've never been in a situation where I've wanted to live upload pictures from my big camera as soon as i've taken them. ( besides, editing is half the fun for me ) I generally snap a few pics anyway for a cheap way to geo-tag photos from my dslr.

Night performance needs to be good, ( as why i've been wanting a prime lens ) since most of the time I plan on using this camera it would be for nights out, concerts, shows, etc. Generally in places where "pro-cameras" are not allowed. and the pentax is so tiny and toy like (epsc if i got it in a goofy color ) that security would have no problem with it.

Though after searching and searching, it seems there just isnt anything yet in my budget. and I DON'T want to spend more than I did for my canon red-ring'd lens, or my DSLR kit ( both I paid $500 ea for )  Sure there are cameras with everything I want in the $700+ range, but for that price I just can't do it, I'd then rather just sell my body and upgrade to a pro-sumer grade dslr body ( curently a canon t3i ) or a nice lens. ( probably the 70-200 f4L )

The problem I have with P&S is the horribly slow zooms on them. turning them on you have to wait for the barrel to extend out of the body, and  pushing the little lever to zoom in our out takes for ever, hence why I like the idea of mirrorless, just twist to zoom. 

Though on ebay there are people selling new q7 bodies for $350 ( stripped kits ) and the prime can be bought anywhere for $200, and thats only $550 which is doable. ( but no warranty, returns, etc. on the body ) My local camera shop does buy used gear, and I could see what they would give me for the kit lens ( buy the kit, and turn around and sell the lens back ) my guess wouldn't be anymore than $50 though, which would just cover the sales tax, considering you can buy the body only for just $20 less than the kit. 

I do suppose I can always 'rent' one. Buy one, test it for a weekend, and if I don't like it I can just return it.

And whatever I get must absolutely be able to shoot RAW. I'd honestly be happy using my iphone if it shot raw.


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## robbins.photo

Steve5D said:


> Well, Hell, lemme' fire up the Way Back Machine and we can all have a big ol' time impressing the Y2K crowd with our iPhones.



I dunno.  I mean I love the wayback machine, don't get me wrong.  But were talking about savages here.  Folks that lived clear back in 99'.  



> An AMC Pacer is pretty much a POS, but it would run circles around a Model T. Using your logic, though, that makes the AMC Pacer a damn fine automobile...



You mean it isn't?  I mean it's so cute.. and fishbowl like...


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## Jixr

actually, I just got back from the store, played with the fuji x20, and i think i'm in love.

Feels amazing in the hands, its kind of a mirrorless p&s mix, no removable lens, but you twist the barrel to zoom, optical viewfinder, and tons of other nifty features, and its on sale for $500.


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## Tony S

I'm going to bet that even if you get the mirrorless pocket camera you are still going to forget or just not carry it. Which means you are back to your Iphone and the $ you spent on the new carry camera is wasted. 

Spend the money on a better way to carry your DSLR so you carry it more often than on a new camera that most likely you will not carry as often as your Iphone.


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## Jixr

Picked up the x20 yesterday, took it to the park after work, played with it at home ( indoors )

I'm not sure i'm impressed just yet.
I was skeptical about buying such ( to me ) an expensive camera, thats basically a really fancy compact camera.

I love the design, the pictures are not terrible ( though iso 800 is a bit too grainy for me, and its hard to shoot less than that indoors or in darker areas )

My first cam was a canon dslr, so I guess i've been spoiled by that.

The sensor size is kind of a put off for the price and size of the camera. there are smaller cameras with much larger sensors. the fast f2-2.8 is really about an f4 or so on a crop body dslr, which means it is pretty much the same as my canon 17-40mm f4 L (27mm-64mm 35mm equivilant ) 

I'm really on the fence about returning it. Going to play with it some more today, and see how it does. Its nice, I just don't think it is $600 nice.

And if I do return it, i'm probably just going to hold out for prices of mirrorless systems to fall or possibly find a used one.

Taking it with me isnt the problem. I have a bag that I take with me everywhere, and my DSLR fits in it perfectly, The size of the x20 is not small enough that it will fit in a pocket, but with its included strap I just toss it on my shoulder and off we go, and its small enough that i'm not worried about bumping it into things. ( with my dslr on my sling I often still keep a hand over the lens to protect it from bumping into things )

Also the body is a magnisium alloy, nice feel, but some of the buttons wobble a good bit, the back scroll wheel feels very loose and cheap compared to the rest of the build. 

$600, no way, the $500 I paid, eh... $400 and under, I would be okay with. I love love love it, but not for the price.
I'm pretty conflicted, I love the little cam, but I feel like I paid too much for what i'm getting out of it, but on the other hand, its the only small-ish camera with the features I want.


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## Ron Evers

Jixr said:


> I feel like I paid too much for what i'm getting out of it, but on the other hand, its the only small-ish camera with the features I want.



Did you not check out the Oly E-PM2?  Look @ this $300 deal:

Olympus Pen E PM2 16 1 MP Digital Camera White Kit w 14 42mm 2R Lens 050332184350 | eBay

Add 17/2.8 Pancake for $160 & you have a two lens kit for under your desired $500 limit.  

Olympus M Zuiko MZD 17mm F 2 8 F2 8 Micro 4 3 Pen Ed Didital Lens in Packaging 050332177222 | eBay


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## steveraw

Well i guess iPhone wont be that good as far as i know it is quiet like the other cell phones shaky.
Have recently got a speed-light for my canon t5i.
It works for me.

I usually buy from Unique photos. So they have nice pricing i got my flash for just $29.95.
Link for which is here : Honl 8inch Regular Snoot For Photo Speed System | Accessories | Honl at Unique Photo


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## Jixr

yeah, I really like the physical buttons, I hate the touch screens and scroll wheeling through menus to get the settings I want set up.
I'll use it over the weekend, but if i'm not statisfied, then i'm just going to return it and hold onto my cash.

and most of the mirrorless systems will still require me to buy a pancake lens for it to be as portable as I want, and with the x20's colapsable lens, it folds up nice.

I guess my problem is I don't want to pay for the features I want since my DSLR is much cheaper :mrgreen:


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## Kolia

I'm telling you, take a Sony RX for a spin. It is very good and compromises little to a DSLR...

Worth the extra push cost-wise. The mark 1 isn't much more expensive anyways. 


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