# Wholly C&C Batman!



## KmH (Jan 9, 2012)

I just finished counting 26 threads (out of 40), requesting C&C on a total of 73 photos here in the Beginners forum section.

That all adds up to asking other forum members to do a lot of work.

Consequently, few are actually getting any worthwhile C&C.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

You have too much time on your hands. LOL


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## jake337 (Jan 9, 2012)

And few will understand the C&C given as well....


Or learn from it....


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

And isnt this thread just going to distract more? What's the point you're trying to get at exactly.... Don't mean sarcastically, I wanna what the point is.


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## Ocho_1 (Jan 9, 2012)

jake337 said:


> And few will understand the C&C given as well....
> 
> 
> Or learn from it....



well, the two that I posted asking for C&C, I've already learned a bit from. 

I actually do want to get better & have VERY thick skin.


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## Big Mike (Jan 9, 2012)

I preferred it back when the beginner section was not also a gallery...but unfortunately that was too complicated for most beginners.  :roll:


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## Shoal (Jan 9, 2012)

> You have too much time on your hands. LOL



lol.


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## Derrel (Jan 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> You have too much time on your hands. LOL



Says the guy who posts a reply to a thread within two minutes' time of the thread having been posted!!!


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

... at least you get some type of feedback. :/


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## Robin Usagani (Jan 9, 2012)

and about 75% are new members from Texas I see.



KmH said:


> I just finished counting 26 threads (out of 40), requesting C&C on a total of 73 photos here in the Beginners forum section.
> 
> That all adds up to asking other forum members to do a lot of work.
> 
> Consequently, few are actually getting any worthwhile C&C.


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## AgentDrex (Jan 9, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> and about 75% are new members from Texas I see.



Well, that's a lot of steers and q....well...you know what I mean if you like Kubrick...


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## Derrel (Jan 9, 2012)

"*Wholly*" C&C Batman!!! Pretty darned clever joke there Keith!!!

Yeah, the C&C thing has become just simply HUGE in the Beginner's Forum...I was attributing it to new cameras and the Christmas season, and such. I admit, the FLOOD of requests for C&C has sort of numbed my senses...just...too..many...requests...every...day....they....never...seeem...to...stop....


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## AgentDrex (Jan 9, 2012)

And do most of them even want the C&C...they ask for it...but I don't think they understand what will happen to their egos upon asking...


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## Ms.Nash (Jan 9, 2012)

Ha!!


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## GnipGnop (Jan 9, 2012)

I came to this forum to learn more about photography.

What I seemed to find (on my scratch at the surface thus far), mostly people looking for a pat on the back for some snap shots they've taken. I get the sense that not a lot of people actually take the time to read and research on their own, but take a sort of ass-backwards approach where they shoot, and ask "AMIDOINITRITE?"

It's not their fault, but I think is a result of how easy it is to pick up a digital camera these days and start shooting.

I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, but I think some people need to evaluate how they are learning to create pictures. Anyone can press the shutter, and if that's all you're doing then don't expect much critique. Learn to create. Learn about your medium, and the variables that affect the outcome. Don't just shoot and ask how you can be better. It's backwards IMO.

One last thing, and perhaps the most important. When you ask for C&C on your picture, you will get C&C on your picture. That includes subject (your kids, your muse, your dog, your whatever), or what ever else you decided to take a photo of. If someone says it sucks, they are saying it sucks, not you personally. They most important thing an artist can do is to separate themselves from their work. If your creations truly are just for you, then don't give them an audience. If you give art an audience, expect a variety of responses and embrace them all. 

/2 cents from a noob on here.


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## jake337 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ocho_1 said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > And few will understand the C&C given as well....
> ...




One of the few.....


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

GnipGnop said:


> I came to this forum to learn more about photography.
> 
> What I seemed to find (on my scratch at the surface thus far), mostly people looking for a pat on the back for some snap shots they've taken.



^^ oh but don't think for a moment that the majority here (or anywhere else for that matter) want to see anything_ other than _snapshots.


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## kundalini (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, at least it's better for them to be asking for it rather than all the other threads moaning about C&C.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > You have too much time on your hands. LOL
> ...



Just a coinkydink.


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## naptime (Jan 9, 2012)

I DO I DO!!!!

i gladly take in the c&c, and learn from it.

which then sends me out on an internet mission to read and learn on the subject i was asking for c&c about.

i went a week between posting my color pics and my black and white pics.

what did i do that week? i read.

i went a week between my b&w pics and my pic last night from my new photo challenge.

those black & white pics, metering was an issue. didnt know about it. or the exposure triangle.

what have i done the last week... read countless pages and watched countless videos on the exposure triangle and in camera metering, and my camera manual. 


but, i realize everyone with a new camera isn't like me. it's hard to be me. it takes a lot of work to be this awesome.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

Is it too early yet?


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## Overread (Jan 9, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> I preferred it back when the beginner section was not also a gallery...but unfortunately that was too complicated for most beginners.  :roll:



Pls can we has C&C subsection? 


I promise to ban anyone who isn't good in there if we get one

>>>>

<<<<

metaphorically speaking that is


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## Joel_W (Jan 9, 2012)

Does anyone really post their pictures and request no CC's?  Or just not asking for CC's mean the same?  

Since I've been a member here, I post my current pictures once or twice per week, and always end my post sayimg CC's welcomed. Most of the time I get few if any CC's. I'm satisfied to see the number of viewers that have stopped by to take a look. Can't really ask or expect more.


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## Ms.Nash (Jan 9, 2012)

How's about this approach.... Either give CC or don't but don't complain about it. This forum is for everybody not just this perceived "upper echelon " of people that think their great cuz they have 10,000 posts under their avatar.


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## jowensphoto (Jan 9, 2012)

I've only been around these parts about a year, so I must ask: when does the after-Christhmahanakwanzaka chaos calm down?

I just looked back through my started posts. Today, for the first time in my one year here, did I post asking for C&C in the subject. All of my recent posts are questions (and MANY thanks to those who answered!). There are so many posts requesting C&C that you kinda just start to overlook them. And that sucks for the ones who actually want some critique and direction. 

Oh! And most of the C&C I do get (most, NOT all!) isn't really critique (Schwetty, I think you posted about this earlier today). It's either solely opinions ("I like it!" or "I hate it!") or a critique that has no useful information behind it. 

Okay, soapbox- DONE.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm warning you all. I have Nyan Cat loaded and ready!


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## jowensphoto (Jan 9, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I'm warning you all. I have Nyan Cat loaded and ready!



<--- Had to google/wikipedia that


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

I think a few people need to step back and need to remember that they were all once noobs who knew no better. Also people need to realize that this is en open forum for every type of photographer, both serious and those who just want aimlessly point a camera. Just because you don't care for their lack of motivation doesn't mean they are less deserving of posting here. Until guidelines say different this forum is open to everyone, not just the ones who take it seriously enough to your liking. I'm trying very hard to apply everything I've learned, but if someone likes just snapping pictures and has no interest in moving forward, who cares? Just ignore those threads if you don't like the attitude. But don't act like they're doing something because they don't care to follow your advice, when there is no requirement to to post here.Of course I'm not speaking for those who are just nasty to people giving advice. Just sayin.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

OK THATS IT


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## TenaciousTins (Jan 9, 2012)

Sorry unpopular, I have you beat!

Nyan Cat 10 hours (original) - YouTube


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

and my personal favorite farting nyan cat






I swear to god. I crack up every time I watch that.


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## KmH (Jan 9, 2012)

People first need to do some independent research into the fundamentals of doing photography, including the basic technical aspects of how the tools of photograpahy - camera, lens, and light work to produce the photograph.

Second, they need to look at accomplished photographers images to see how the fundamentals are applied. (Facebook is *not* a good place for doing that. :er

Third, they need to self-critique that they are indeed applying the fundamentals to their own images.


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## Demers18 (Jan 9, 2012)

KmH said:
			
		

> I just finished counting 26 threads (out of 40), requesting C&C on a total of 73 photos here in the Beginners forum section.
> 
> That all adds up to asking other forum members to do a lot of work.
> 
> Consequently, few are actually getting any worthwhile C&C.



So what do you suggest we do?

Am I a noob? Absolutely, however I try to apply everything that is recommended. I want to learn the craft of photography and want to get better. The critique is something I value as people you know aka Facebook etc, will only give you the "yay I like it" type feedback.
IMO that is not how you learn and therefore the reason I post here asking for CC. I want to know what I did wrong or what can be improved and what better place than a forum with many that have the "eye" and master the techniques us noobs only can only dream to.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

KmH said:


> Second, they need to look at accomplished photographers images to see how the fundamentals are applied. (Facebook is *not* a good place for doing that. :er



People need to start taking photographs for themselves, improve for themselves and have a purpose for taking photographs aside from the admiration of people around them. If people just did that, then visually masturbating to Ansel Adams wouldn't be necessary.


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## ph0enix (Jan 9, 2012)

Ms.Nash said:


> ...not just this perceived "upper echelon " of people that think their great cuz they have 10,000 posts under their avatar.



...or are professional photographers with many decades of experience, who can really help (and already have many times) the newbies A LOT *eyeroll*.  How about at least reviewing some of KmH's posts before posting such nonsense.


Do not, and I repeat, DO NOT disrespect certain TpF members or else...!!!


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 9, 2012)

ph0enix said:


> Ms.Nash said:
> 
> 
> > ...not just this perceived "upper echelon " of people that think their great cuz they have 10,000 posts under their avatar.
> ...



Yup...Mistake.... Big Mistake.


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## ph0enix (Jan 9, 2012)

Demers18 said:


> So what do you suggest we do?
> 
> Am I a noob? Absolutely, however I try to apply everything that is recommended. I want to learn the craft of photography and want to get better. The critique is something I value as people you know aka Facebook etc, will only give you the "yay I like it" type feedback.
> IMO that is not how you learn and therefore the reason I post here asking for CC. I want to know what I did wrong or what can be improved and what better place than a forum with many that have the "eye" and master the techniques us noobs only can only dream to.



The thing is that 75% or more of the people asking for C&C now, will get bored with the cameras they got for Christmas and photography overall.  They will vanish from TPF like 007's Aston Martin.  Good for you if you decide to stick around.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

I am avoiding the CC posts since the influx of Christmas Day cameras. It's always dicey this time of year in a forum for CC and this one it can get particularly dicey at times. 
73 photos. That takes a LOT of time to give even half assed CC on-which is fine, I don't mind giving whatever time I do have, but... Most of the Christmas Day Photographers aren't REALLY wanting true CC. Until those ones get filtered out of the ones who REALLY want to learn? I'm keeping to very little CC. Sorry! It's just safer that way! 
I'd rather spend my time on someone I know wants it than on someone who is going to give every excuse as to why the image is good enough as it is. Until I can tell who is who? I'll keep my cc to a  minimum.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> I am avoiding the CC posts since the influx of Christmas Day cameras. It's always dicey this time of year in a forum for CC and this one it can get particularly dicey at times.
> 73 photos. That takes a LOT of time to give even half assed CC on-which is fine, I don't mind giving whatever time I do have, but... Most of the Christmas Day Photographers aren't REALLY wanting true CC. Until those ones get filtered out of the ones who REALLY want to learn? I'm keeping to very little CC. Sorry! It's just safer that way!
> I'd rather spend my time on someone I know wants it than on someone who is going to give every excuse as to why the image is good enough as it is. Until I can tell who is who? I'll keep my cc to a  minimum.



Darlin, that influx happened before Christmas....this wave is actually a pleasure. :Joker:


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## MWC2 (Jan 9, 2012)

I joined the forum back in June, have less than 200 posts and consider myself a newbie when it comes to photography (only been shooting for about 16 months or so).  I only post every couple of months for C&C but am here at least 3 times a week reading and learning.  Any C&C I receive I take and try to apply to my next attempt, sometimes it works for me other times I don't really care for the results, but I'm always open to trying out something someone recommends.  I did notice the growth in posters this last month and I believe there will be another spike around tax return time as well.

If it wasn't for the posters here at TPF, I still would be shooting on Auto, my children would have green skin tones and no one would be in focus... thank you everyone that has ever point out an issue I have had.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

Oh, we had some real peaches here this fall! 

Great for entertainment.


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## Sonoma (Jan 9, 2012)

Huh.  Deja vu!  I think we had this thread not to long ago.


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## shutterbugmomma (Jan 9, 2012)

As a noob to this forum, I just want to put in my 2 cents. I am here because I am genuinely trying to learn to be a photographer. I don't want mediocre photos, I want amazing ones. I have read and read and read and practiced. I need real input so I can correct what I am doing wrong! I have had my camera for over a year and I have steadily improved, on my own without any input from others that knew anything about photography. My friends don't understand why I am not happy with my shots because they don't see what I see. My ultimate goal is to have spectacular shots with minimal post-processing. Posts like this seem to say "If you aren't good, don't bother" 
I hope that those that really want to help beginners continue to help those like me that aren't here for a pat on the back for sub-par photos, but rather instruction on how to fix it!
Thank you to all of you that take the time to give cc.


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## MissCream (Jan 9, 2012)

Right now it's all newbs critiquing newbs, you're a bad person if you tell someone their picture is OOF (out of focus) after 10 people who don't know what they are doing say it's great.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

from my experience you get ten people complaining about it being OOF and why it doesn't follow the rule of thirds, and nobody mentioning anything about content.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 9, 2012)

unpopular said:


> from my experience you get ten people complaining about it being OOF and why it doesn't follow the rule of thirds, and nobody mentioning anything about content.



One thing at a time....:lmao:

Don't know about anyone else, but I am a fan of focus....you do raise a good point on what is a proper order of failure though....


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## MWC2 (Jan 9, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > from my experience  you get ten people complaining about it being OOF and why it doesn't  follow the rule of thirds, and nobody mentioning anything about  content.
> ...



Focus is SOOOO overrated.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

Great, now we have two threads whining about critiquing!


A big issue I see with new members asking for critique, is that so many of them seem to need information spoon fed to them. There are so many books written on all subjects photogaphy, yet helpful people like MTvision have to rewrite those books for every person they respond to. I see many people who seem to never look at other threads, just their own. There is a wealth of information in the numerous CC posts that everyone can learn from. I think it's necessary for beginners to read as many CC posts as they can. In terms of composition, this is a great way to learn by example. There are infinite possibilities in regards to composition, and the more examples you see, and file away in your head, the bigger the pool you can draw from when you are faced with each and every new photographic opportunity that comes along.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again...the onus is on you to learn. The information is out there in many forms. You will not learn very much if your sole guidance is coming here and posting a picture every day and asking for CC. As has been said before as well, making a serious effort in self critique shows other posters willing to help that you are serious, and that you are learning to "see". The more you give, the more you get.

I think all new people should be told to get the book "the photographers eye" or "learning to see creatively" and asked not to post again till they have read it.

The other thing that is insane, are the number of people that tell new people to disregard the theories of composition and elements of design. It's the fundamentals! Once you learn them, understand them, and can apply them, then you are free to challenge them!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

unpopular said:


> from my experience you get ten people complaining about it being OOF and why it doesn't follow the rule of thirds, and nobody mentioning anything about content.


 Yeah, well, whaddaya want. It's a duck, or a spider, or a dog, or a cat, or a seagull, or a building, or a kidlet, ad nauseum.


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## bentcountershaft (Jan 9, 2012)

I learned a lot of stuff as a noob here because of c&c threads.  The difference though was that I probably learned more from the threads started by other folks and seeing where they went wrong than I did with my own threads.  Not everyone is capable of learning from someone else's mistakes but I grew up with an older brother so I learned early on how to avoid getting in trouble (or getting caught rather) all the time like he did.


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## naptime (Jan 9, 2012)

ph0enix said:


> Demers18 said:
> 
> 
> > So what do you suggest we do?
> ...



i hope some of those new canon owners put them up on ebay REAL cheap


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## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

MissCream said:


> Right now it's all newbs critiquing newbs, you're a bad person if you tell someone their picture is OOF (out of focus) after 10 people who don't know what they are doing say it's great.


I must be a baaaadddddddddddd person! :er:


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## TamiAz (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm guilty..Probably post too many c&c request, however, I do read and I do research information. When I take pictures there are things that I don't see unless someone points it out to me. I do take the feedback I'm given and use it to help me improve. Thanks for all the help!!


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > from my experience you get ten people complaining about it being OOF and why it doesn't follow the rule of thirds, and nobody mentioning anything about content.
> ...



Over at photo.net I got this like really over the top bad CC. I went to see what this guru of photography had to offer the world and found a single picture of a duck, swimming away from the camera, in bright daylight, dead center of the frame.

From then on "duck photographers" have been my nemesis.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

shutterbugmomma said:


> As a noob to this forum, I just want to put in my 2 cents. I am here because I am genuinely trying to learn to be a photographer. I don't want mediocre photos, I want amazing ones. I have read and read and read and practiced. I need real input so I can correct what I am doing wrong! I have had my camera for over a year and I have steadily improved, on my own without any input from others that knew anything about photography. My friends don't understand why I am not happy with my shots because they don't see what I see. My ultimate goal is to have spectacular shots with minimal post-processing. Posts like this seem to say "If you aren't good, don't bother"
> I hope that those that really want to help beginners continue to help those like me that aren't here for a pat on the back for sub-par photos, but rather instruction on how to fix it!
> Thank you to all of you that take the time to give cc.



Don't think that. Just understand that your first handful of posts may get some weak CC or very little until we get a feel for you. 
When we speak face to face we have the ability to read each other and know how the other is going to take something or how the speaker means to be saying things. In writing here on a forum-you can take what a CC giver says completely different than how the poster meant it. Until we get a feel for you and you get a feel for us... it's hard to give anything really effective. 
Plus, the fact that we all have to get to know each other kind of chases off those who aren't that serious about learning anything.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

naptime said:


> ph0enix said:
> 
> 
> > Demers18 said:
> ...


Keep an eye out on craigslist about July. They're usually hurting for money by then. Tax refunds are spent and they are then looking for the best way to make some cash. I bought my 7D for $1000 last summer with 2600 clicks on it. Dude was desperate!


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## MWC2 (Jan 9, 2012)

I purchased my 40D for $250, less than 800 clicks on it. I purchased in between Christmas and Tax Return Time off Craigslist as well.  Even came with the original sales receipt.


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

I think this whole thread is just people making themselves feel wiser and more important then others. 

I think certain people on here who give CC have an undeserved sense of entitlement. Just because you're good at something doesn't give you a right to say/ridicule people who don't post up to the standards that you think they should. Some people here think they're CCs are precious, and to people like me and others that are serious, it is. But to others it's not. And there is no rule that it has to be. Just because you give advice doesn't mean people have to turn around and say "Thank you Sensei"

Like it or not, as I said before, this is an open forum. You guys are not the moderators. I don't get where people come off saying what is an acceptable post here. Photographers of all sorts are allowed here. Both those who want to learn and those who just like taking shots. I missed the part in the guidelines were it says "only serious photographer allowed here, all others must go elsewhere".  

Believe are not there are photographers who like the simplicity of just going out with their cameras. And they have just as much right to post what/how they want as someone who has been at this for decades. I don't get why people would sit here and whine about what photos are being posted when there is both a professional gallery and a beyond the basics section for people specifically taking it a step further. 

Guess what? If there is an influx of 200 people posting photos who don't give rat's *** about advice, they ARE allowed to as such. 

I think Mleek is taking a much more respectful, less snobbish approach, by just avoiding it and not going on whining on and insulting people about it.

On the other hand, if someone is rude/disrespectful/mean to the people offering their CC then all's fair in hell. lol.


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## jbarnes.US (Jan 9, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > and about 75% are new members from Texas I see.
> ...



That hurts.


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## naptime (Jan 9, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...



i didn't know lightspeed was on photo.net.. hmmm


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

I am over there too. I just rarely participate. I like FredMiranda for their sports forum too.


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## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

KmH said:


> People first need to do some independent research into the fundamentals of doing photography, including the basic technical aspects of how the tools of photograpahy - camera, lens, and light work to produce the photograph.
> 
> Second, they need to look at accomplished photographers images to see how the fundamentals are applied. (Facebook is *not* a good place for doing that. :er
> Third, they need to self-critique that they are indeed applying the fundamentals to their own images.


Agreed, however, I think one of the key roles that more experienced members here can play is to help those new to the photographic world is to help those who really want to, learn what those things are.  For instance, if someone has never done anything but take snapshots, and has decided that they want to learn more or "go to the next level", they may not know what they need to learn, or how to self-critique an image (if you don't know that a centred subject isn't good composition, how do you self-critique it?).  

As well, our culture is changing; dinosaurs like you and I (Well, you anyway) are used to going to the bookshelf to learn what we need, but in the new, connected world, it's become the norm to simply ask a question of the Internet at large, in the same way you would of your Mother or Father when you were a child.  Not saying I like it, but that's the way it is...

Now... you dam kids... get off'n my lawn!!!


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## Tee (Jan 9, 2012)

KMH and others are right that there has to be some effort on the part of the poster.  Spoon feeding only goes so far.      

I prefer to get my critiques from places that are a little more specific to genres from those who specialize in said genre.  I don't shoot newborns, cars, fences, maternity shots with sonograms, leaves, birds or weddings so that pretty much leaves me hanging somewhere in the TPF abyss.  It would be nice if the Beyond the Basics forum was opened to intermediate photographers to post for critique.

Blackrose- this sense of entitlement?  Really?  Maybe if you're here to join cliques, I suppose.  I don't know...take what's good, discard the rest, close out the window if things get too bad and go photograph something.


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

tirediron said:
			
		

> Now... you dam kids... get off'n my lawn!!!



You mean like these dam kids?

http://badwithconviction.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/dam_kids_web.jpg


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## bentcountershaft (Jan 9, 2012)

Tee said:


> I don't shoot newborns, cars, fences, maternity shots with sonograms, leaves, birds or weddings...



And you call your self a photographer?  Pffft!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

tirediron said:


> As well, our culture is changing; dinosaurs like you and I (Well, you anyway) are used to going to the bookshelf to learn what we need, but in the new, connected world, it's become the norm to simply ask a question of the Internet at large, in the same way you would of your Mother or Father when you were a child.  Not saying I like it, but that's the way it is...
> 
> Now... you dam kids... get off'n my lawn!!!



I disagree. The problem is a culture of helpless spoon fed babies.

I am learning how to use some CAD software. I am a member of two CAD forum. I have been complimented on how fast I am learning. Why? Because I know how to find the answers, and I am to impatient to wait for someone to solve my problems. The brilliant thing is, in searching, I find related problems, and when they come up later, I already have the answer. THATS how you learn.

I firmly believe the interbred has created a culture that can't problem solve, or do research. But we have to take into account the hundreds of lurkers here that do find there answers, and never post. We can't quantify that number though to see if it out ways the helpless.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

The sense of entitlement drives me insane and it's part of why I avoid things. And this will be where I open my rather large mouth... 

No one is entitled to a damn thing by being a member here. I certainly give a LOT more than I get out of this forum. I am not paid to do that and frankly, a thank you is the least people can do. It takes a LOT of time and effort to give the CC. We take that time from other things we could be doing and give it freely. We don't expect anything but respect in return. 
Which seems to RARELY come from the new members. 
Although... I have to say I got a "thank you" in my inbox today from someone who is only a lurker. That was cool. The sender is learning something from our posts even though they don't post anything and took the time to say THANK YOU. More than most people do in a forum!


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## Tracybug (Jan 9, 2012)

I know I am new here and have asked for alot of help & suggestions. I really have listened very carefully to what other's here have pointed out to me and have appreciated all of the information and suggestions that the people here have so kindly have shared. I have tried to take that advice and use it and I really thought I was making progress. But as someone new here and someone who still needs advice this post makes me feel very timid to ask for that advice now. Just my 2 cents.....


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## rexbobcat (Jan 9, 2012)

I just think that the forum should read the EXIF data and if the shutter actuations are below a certain count they shouldn't be allowed to post photos. XD From what I've observed, this place is simply flooded with "These are my first 4 shots EVER with my new camera. How did I do?"

Seriously though, I think that secretly (or not too secretly) everyone thinks they have what it takes to be the next groundbreaking revolutionary when it comes to art. That's why they post here first before researching. They expect us to jump up and say "egads! This came from a beginner!? You've got inherent talent!"

Maybe they think that if they're told that they don't have to work as hard? I don't know.That's just my take.

Also: generalizing a whole generation by the negative aspects of the few is totally awesome guys. Thanks.


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

Tracybug said:


> I know I am new here and have asked for alot of help & suggestions. I really have listened very carefully to what other's here have pointed out to me and have appreciated all of the information and suggestions that the people here have so kindly have shared. I have tried to take that advice and use it and I really thought I was making progress. But as someone new here and someone who still needs advice this post makes me feel very timid to ask for that advice now. Just my 2 cents.....



We are just feeling out to find the people like you.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ...THATS how you learn...


Noooooooo, that's how *you* (and I, and a lot of the older, and _*some*_ of the newer folks) learn!



Bitter Jeweler said:


> I firmly believe the interbred has created a culture that can't problem solve, or do research.


I agree with you 110%!!!!!!!!



Bitter Jeweler said:


> But we have to take into account the hundreds of lurkers here that do find there answers, and never post. We can't quantify that number though to see if it out ways the helpless.


:thumbup:


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

I think we need a 1000 post club or something... These conversations probably shouldn't be public in the forum.


----------



## baturn (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, I'm mostly a lurker. I'm here almost everyday and read almost every thread in 'active topics".As you can see I rarely comment and don't believe I've ever asked for C&C. I usually read but ignore threads of this type because you are all entitled to your opinions (right or wrong or even inane). This time though, I think I'll add my two cents.
I have to agree with those who say it is an open forum and all are entitled to post ( within forum rules and guidelines) what they wish and ask questions as they wish. If for any reason any of you are too busy, too tired,too proud or just don't care enough to comment, don't!


----------



## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

baturn said:


> I have to agree with those who say it is an open forum and all are entitled to post ( within forum rules and guidelines) what they wish and ask questions as they wish. If for any reason any of you are too busy, too tired,too proud or just don't care enough to comment, don't!



Let's just say I'm already getting PMs from people who say they won't be asking for CC anymore due to this post. People who really are trying sooooooo.... yeh......


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> baturn said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree with those who say it is an open forum and all are entitled to post ( within forum rules and guidelines) what they wish and ask questions as they wish. If for any reason any of you are too busy, too tired,too proud or just don't care enough to comment, don't!
> ...



Good for them!


----------



## MWC2 (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> Let's just say I'm already getting PMs from people who say they won't be asking for CC anymore due to this post. People who really are trying sooooooo.... yeh......



That is sad, I've learned a lot since joining and posting for C&C, even thou I don't post often, I read and learn a ton.  You should see some of the first images I posted for C&C, I'm embarrassed to call them mine (and I know I still have a long way to go).


----------



## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> I think we need a 1000 post club or something... These conversations probably shouldn't be public in the forum.


YAY, I qualify!

(I have always wanted to say that)


----------



## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

Plus, one more like and I'm 1/5 the way to platinum level!!


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

This is just an uninstigated attack. It's no more then the big kids bullying the little kids yelling "nope nope this is MY jungle gym" when in fact the jungle gym belongs to everyone.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

To tell you the truth, I have no idea what this thread is even about ... Like seriously.


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> baturn said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree with those who say it is an open forum and all are entitled to post ( within forum rules and guidelines) what they wish and ask questions as they wish. If for any reason any of you are too busy, too tired,too proud or just don't care enough to comment, don't!
> ...



Now that's just insanity. if people are letting some anonymous person on the internet intimidate them in a post that has nothing to do with them in any personal way then there is a problem to begin with. You've been here long enough to know that and I am pretty sure you've even said it at one time or another. It's the internet. Ignore the azzholes and look for the good. 
If you look for those you can learn from and take their advice and ignore the garbage? You'll do great. If you can't do that you probably shouldn't be learning and posting your work on the internet anyway because there will ALWAYS be a troll to tell them they suck-literally-for no reason other than that they can type. If your skin is that thin then this is NOT the place for you to learn and you probably would do better in a classroom where a "well respected teacher" can tell you that you suck and be straight up sh!tty about it if they want to.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> If your skin is that thin then this is NOT the place for you to learn and you probably would do better in a classroom where a "well respected teacher" can tell you that you suck and be straight up sh!tty about it if they want to.



I LOL'ed.


----------



## bentcountershaft (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> baturn said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree with those who say it is an open forum and all are entitled to post ( within forum rules and guidelines) what they wish and ask questions as they wish. If for any reason any of you are too busy, too tired,too proud or just don't care enough to comment, don't!
> ...



Really?  That's all it took?  Not a lot of gumption, huh?


----------



## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> This is just an uninstigated attack. It's no more then the big kids bullying the little kids yelling "nope nope this is MY jungle gym" when in fact the jungle gym belongs to everyone.


Okay... but didn't you say:



blackrose89 said:


> Like it or not, as I said before, this is an open forum. You guys are not the moderators. I don't get where people come off saying what is an acceptable post here.


So why isn't Keith entitled to speak his mind?


----------



## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

tirediron said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> > This is just an uninstigated attack. It's no more then the big kids bullying the little kids yelling "nope nope this is MY jungle gym" when in fact the jungle gym belongs to everyone.
> ...


I've never said he couldn't speak his mind. I just said that people don't have to follow your advice. I didn't say he couldnt speak his mind, I just gave my opinion on his thoughts.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)




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## Tracybug (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> > baturn said:
> ...


I don't think most people have a problem with people pointing out problems with their photo's but like I said in my other post....This thread makes ME....as someone NEW here and someone who HAS asked for advice & suggestions timid to ask for advice in the future....It personally makes me wonder if maybe I am being a pest by asking for advice and I'm only being honest, it can and will make people who are truly only trying to better themselves feel uncomfortable asking for advice here. That is just MY opinion and only speak for myself....


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

The point of the post: 
If you aren't getting CC or CC of any value this is why... There are 73 images for us to cc on here at this point. FULL CC on 73 images is at the very least an hour and a half of time to invest. We are looking for that person we can actually help and also looking for the ones who we need to avoid for whatever reason. Sometimes it is just a personality conflict, sometimes it's lack of effort.. WHATEVER the reason is, it doesn't help someone for me to give them CC if we can't work together.

Yes, we expect you to put something into this if we are going to sit down and donate an hour and a half to helping you grow as a photographer without making you do the research, read the books and take the class. If that is too much to expect? OH WELL.

We'll get to know the ones who want cc and they'll get what they want. Be patient as a new photographer here. We've all been burned by a newbie on a high horse who wasted our time at one time or another. Sorry, we are a bit cautious as to who we give that time to now.  We only have so much time to give and wasting it on someone who doesn't want it is just stupid. We are truly LOOKING for the ones who want it and that we can help, but we can't find that out if you post a couple of posts and give up. That just makes you the same as all of the others who came and left 15 minutes later for whatever reason. 

WE HAVE TO GET TO KNOW YOU FIRST AND KNOW WHAT YOU NEED, WHAT WILL HELP YOU AND HOW YOUR GOING TO LEARN FROM US. We don't know you from Adam and we NEED to in order to help you. If that's too much? I am... wait.. I am not sorry. It's just the way it is.


----------



## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> > baturn said:
> ...


I'm sorry but this is different then having thick skin after being given ****ty, mean spirited CC. This is an uninstigated attack dedicated  To telling the newcomers that they're idiots and a waste of your valuable time. Why would someone post after that?


----------



## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> The point of the post:



Wait. There is a point to any of this?!


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

Tracybug said:


> I don't think most people have a problem with people pointing out problems with their photo's but like I said in my other post....This thread makes ME....as someone NEW here and someone who HAS asked for advice & suggestions timid to ask for advice in the future....It personally makes me wonder if maybe I am being a pest by asking for advice and I'm only being honest, it can and will make people who are truly only trying to better themselves feel uncomfortable asking for advice here. That is just MY opinion and only speak for myself....


That is the problem here... There ARE those who have a real problem with pointing out where improvement can be made. LOTS of them. We see them all of the time. Just read the archives and you'll find hundreds. People like you are the rarity that we are trying to ferret out. 
That is where we are weeding out those who are like you who actually want to improve and the ones who want us to blow sunshine and roses up their butt. 

This forum is rough sometimes. You have to have a backbone and you have to let things roll off your back or you will hate it here. BitterJeweler and I had a hell of a great go round. I stood my ground and he pushed and pushed it. We now have a great understanding. If he had chased me off who would have benefitted from that? Him? No. Me? No. He pushed me until we found our footing. He'll harass me from time to time and we'll all laugh. 

So, where are you going to stand next?


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

unpopular said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > The point of the post:
> ...



No, not really.

Well, maybe not Keith's! LOL!


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > blackrose89 said:
> ...



WHERE did anyone say that? YOU just said it.


----------



## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> The point of the post:
> Yes, we expect you to put something into this if we are going to sit down and donate an hour and a half to helping you grow as a photographer without making you do the research, read the books and take the class. If that is too much to expect? OH WELL.
> 
> .



But my point is they don't have to show you ANY effort!  This is where I am talking about sense of entitlement. Guess what? They can post whatever the hell want and not have to justify it. There are NO guidelines on how much effort, how much they care, respect CC. They don't OWE you anything, anymore then you OWE them CC. Both sides are expecting way too much from each other. If people don't care about moving forward I really don't believe it's a monstrocity like everyone else seems to. The level they want to take it to is their business.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> I'm sorry but this is different then having thick skin after being given ****ty, mean spirited CC. This is an uninstigated attack dedicated To telling the newcomers that they're idiots and a waste of your valuable time. Why would someone post after that?


 Photography is art.  Art is subjective ('though ideally C&C should be objective, it rarely is).  Good art is that which causes and emotional reaction.  If you're going to be upset because your art causes an emotional reaction, you're in the wrong hobby.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > MLeeK said:
> ...


Yeah, but his hat covers it up!


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

Then I guess I don't have to show any effort to them either. AND THAT IS THE POINT.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

tirediron said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> But my point is they don't have to show you ANY effort!



Exactly.

And my point is, if YOU can't be bothered to give much, don't expect much in return, and then complain about it.


----------



## Tracybug (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Tracybug said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think most people have a problem with people pointing out problems with their photo's but like I said in my other post....This thread makes ME....as someone NEW here and someone who HAS asked for advice & suggestions timid to ask for advice in the future....It personally makes me wonder if maybe I am being a pest by asking for advice and I'm only being honest, it can and will make people who are truly only trying to better themselves feel uncomfortable asking for advice here. That is just MY opinion and only speak for myself....
> ...



I guess I took it a bit to heart but mostly because I am new here and have asked for alot of help....but that advice has helped me!!!! So I'm going to feel good that I AM learning and keep reading and keep snapping!!! Don't be surprised when I reach out for more advice....because I truly believe that the people here are a wonderful piece of the puzzle to help me become better!!!!


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## Tee (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:
			
		

> But my point is they don't have to show you ANY effort!  This is where I am talking about sense of entitlement. Guess what? They can post whatever the hell want and not have to justify it. There are NO guidelines on how much effort, how much they care, respect CC. They don't OWE you anything, anymore then you OWE them CC. Both sides are expecting way too much from each other. If people don't care about moving forward I really don't believe it's a monstrocity like everyone else seems to. The level they want to take it to is their business.



Well of course no one has to show effort. PhotoGuy did just that and guess what?  Someone with the same screen name as you started a thread mocking his photography.  Look, the point I'm taking from this thread is there has to be a little give and take. Nobody has to do squat if they don't want to but if someone is truly interested in learning they have to put a little effort into their part if they want to get something out out of this forum. Showing up, posting 10 pics and saying "tell me how to get better" is akin to some random member asking us what the best DSLR is with no background information.


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## MLeeK (Jan 9, 2012)

Glad I could be the entertainment tonight everyone, but I am exhausted... I'll be back to start the dog and pony show again tomorrow! G'night everyone!


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> > But my point is they don't have to show you ANY effort!
> ...



I'm saying that I think certain people could care less about the amount of effort you put into CC. If they're content just posting aimless photos and expecting minimilist, pointful, unhelpful CC then who cares? I'm not saying it's a good way to be if you want to grow, I'm just saying if they're content with that, they have a full right to be.


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## bentcountershaft (Jan 9, 2012)

But they're seldom content with it because they whine that no one is helping them.


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## Vtec44 (Jan 9, 2012)

I don't critique much unless I have something concrete to say.  Typically, I let the more experience photographers voice their opinion due to the fact that I m a noob.    I do try once in a while but I'm not as articulate as the veteran members.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > blackrose89 said:
> ...



Again. EXACTLY!

But what we get here repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, are people who post a pic or 10 with no information, no indication of what THEY think about their images, what THEY think works, and what doesn't, bump the thread and whine that 76 people have viewed the thread and nobody responded.

How can I teach you something, when I don't even know what you know, or think.


----------



## Tracybug (Jan 9, 2012)

Well I personally have learned ALOT from people CC'ing my photo's! I've learned about lighting, I've learned about where to focus, I've learned how to create an appealing bokeh in my photo's and most importantly I have learned to watch for rocks growing out of my daughter's head!!!! That is just a few off the top of my head!!!!


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## Ballistics (Jan 9, 2012)

For those looking for a good place to post a pic to get a good solid and *quick*&#8203; C&C... this thread is the place to do it.


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## Vtec44 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ballistics said:


> For those looking for a good place to post a pic to get a good solid and *quick*&#8203; C&C... this thread is the place to do it.



I like the way you think!  Let me know and post some pix...


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## Derrel (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but this is different then having thick skin after being given ****ty, mean spirited CC. This is an uninstigated attack dedicated  To telling the newcomers that they're idiots and a waste of your valuable time. Why would someone post after that?



Overreact much these days???


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## unpopular (Jan 9, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Overreact much these days???


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## MissCream (Jan 9, 2012)

Tee said:
			
		

> Well of course no one has to show effort. PhotoGuy did just that and guess what?  Someone with the same screen name as you started a thread mocking his photography  .



I would also like to hear her reply to this...


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

MissCream said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I did not make fun of his photos, I mocked his attitude after he insulted/harrased me and othersthrough PM, repeatedly instigated confrontation and tried to get people banned and made a *hit list* of people were going to be in trouble for not liking his photos which he PMed to poeple. He did not get what he got from me and others because he simply didn't take advice (which is what is being discussed here) And I already specified IN THIS THREAD that if you are nasty/rude when people give you CC (as PG) you get what you get.


----------



## Ballistics (Jan 9, 2012)

blackrose89 said:


> MissCream said:
> 
> 
> > Tee said:
> ...



Is this really being brought back up.... _*again?*_


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## blackrose89 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ballistics said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> > MissCream said:
> ...



I agree


----------



## Demers18 (Jan 9, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> The sense of entitlement drives me insane and it's part of why I avoid things. And this will be where I open my rather large mouth...
> 
> No one is entitled to a damn thing by being a member here. I certainly give a LOT more than I get out of this forum. I am not paid to do that and frankly, a thank you is the least people can do. It takes a LOT of time and effort to give the CC. We take that time from other things we could be doing and give it freely. We don't expect anything but respect in return.
> Which seems to RARELY come from the new members.
> Although... I have to say I got a "thank you" in my inbox today from someone who is only a lurker. That was cool. The sender is learning something from our posts even though they don't post anything and took the time to say THANK YOU. More than most people do in a forum!



MLeek, I will speak for myself here but I'm sure that a lot of people have the same opinion as me and really appreciate the CC you provide. You are straight forward and concise. You are not afraid to speak your mind and to me, that is real CC. That is the type of CC you learn from, the type that makes you rethink your image and how you could have done it better. There was a reason I PM'ed you to ask you for CC and I only hope that you will continue to CC my images. 

If this post is anything, it's a THANK YOU! Thank you to those of you that DO take the time to CC us noobs or whatever status you may have, but keep in mind that the more we learn the quicker can help with the CC on these boards and actually be able to give back to the community that has help us grow along the way.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 9, 2012)

Ballistics said:


> Is this really being brought back up.... _*again?*_



Yup!

TPF is OCD  like that.


----------



## MissCream (Jan 9, 2012)

Ballistics said:
			
		

> Is this really being brought back up.... again?



Nope just trying to understand when and why alienating certain people or groups is okay to her.


----------



## naptime (Jan 9, 2012)

calgon take me awaaaaaaaaaaaayyy


ok. i'm a newbie. i ask questions. i learn. i go out and do self research. i save the links that people here have given. and i read them. and in those journeys , i find other links that i save, read, and learn. and then  i come back and post many of those for other newbies.

as a newbie, who has both asked for c&c and who knows very little...

i did NOT take THIS thread a personal attack on me.

i took it for exactly what it is.

there ARE people who are new that post pics, ask for c&c , but really have no desire whatsoever to hear c&c or to learn from it.

they are actually looking for "hey that's great. congratulations on your new Christmas present, you did an awesome job. you rock. now go take more for our viewing pleasure. soon!!"


blackrose, i see where you are coming from. you don't feel it's an issue. if they want to post, let them post. to a degree, i agree with you. they aren't hurting anyone. their posts are harmless to some extent. however, many of those people then complain that they don't get coddled or dont get c&c at all. 

it also then makes it difficult for those that do give c&c, because there are soooooo many c&c threads, that they can't possibly keep up with them all.

and it wouldn't be a huge deal if they were all for real. but many of them are just looking for a pat on the back.


look through all the c&c threads since Christmas. look at how many were made with their first post..

so some of these folks couldn't even be bothered to create an intro thread or tell us about themselves.

further more, look at some of the post counts now. nothing. still no activity. they swoop in, ask for an answer or a pat on the back, then swoop out never to return.

imo, that's what the point of this thread is for.

if you can't take the time to introduce yourself, let people know what you thought of your own image, what you are trying to learn, etc.. then why expect folks on the board to take the time to give you c&c.


it's NOT just here. 

i belong to many forums for many different topics. and all have the same issues when new people join, and want some info or help with their first post, and then they never return to the board.


imo, this thread was NOT directed at people that want to learn, and are doing someone on their own to do just that. 

but you cant learn ONLY by asking questions on the board. you've got to get out there and read other sources too. 

and some folks WONT.

like, that one GUY who first name i won't mention.

he asked for c&c every day. but had no desire to attempt to learn. he just wanted a shoulder slap.


----------



## Ballistics (Jan 10, 2012)

MissCream said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For the record, I'm with you. I established my disagreement with her actions and motives in her thread, and then another thread was opened up about the same topic, and then a third.
Here's my take... not that anyone gives a ****, but here it is: 

People forget where they come from, people forget that they were beginners, and people forget that there are actual people making these posts so the comments do get out of hand from time to time.
Everyone is well aware of how a person unfamiliar with C&C may react to a critique. Especially if it is vague. People are told they need thick skin, but what about the people that are interacting with brand new members?
Who's to say that they shouldn't inform individuals of what a proper C&C will consists of? You get to a point where you want to get to the point, a person has been here for a while and you should be able to hear... "#1 is not good because" and learn from it. It goes both ways, both the critiquer and the critiquee (yes both made up words) need to be prepared. Don't get me wrong, there's guilty parties on both sides of the coin. There's people who overreact, and there are people who really just say not nice things and call it constructive criticism. This is a community, and the people here are here to help, or be helped and hopefully both. There are individuals in this thread specifically who are amazing people/teachers/guiders that really benefit the community and I have personally learned a thing or 2. Not naming any names, they know who they are, they know what they do, and someone else will make a thread about them and kiss all of their asses individually anyway.  

In photoguys scenario, I legitimately believe that he was not the sole cause of his demise. He got railroaded, and blackrose was the conductor. Most of the new members jumped down his throat, some older members even said things that were out of line, and it got ugly fast. I also believe now that I think back, that he was young. Probably around 15 or 16 or so. But people took his word that he was 31 (even though he definitely did not act like it), and tore him apart. It is what it is though, I don't have hard feelings for anyone involved... it's over and it's done with, and hopefully blackrose took that as a learning experience.


----------



## captainobvious1 (Jan 10, 2012)

blackrose89 said:
			
		

> I did not make fun of his photos, I mocked his attitude after he insulted/harrased me and othersthrough PM, repeatedly instigated confrontation and tried to get people banned and made a *hit list* of people were going to be in trouble for not liking his photos which he PMed to poeple. He did not get what he got from me and others because he simply didn't take advice (which is what is being discussed here) And I already specified IN THIS THREAD that if you are nasty/rude when people give you CC (as PG) you get what you get.



Actually you did make fun of his photos by putting up a thread with photos that had exaggerated flaws much like the photos he had posted. Your intent was to make fun of him and the situation. 

The photoguy issue is a dead horse. You're one of those that has to have a bandwagon-like opinion on any post that comes up. Breathe. Let others post. Absorb the info. Let others that actually have knowledge comment. 

And there's my 2 cents.


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## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

Isn't it funny how internet problems almost seem like real problems? Until one party comes to their senses.
If that ever happens.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)




----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> Isn't it funny how internet problems almost seem like real problems? Until one party comes to their senses.
> If that ever happens.



I guess I don't count?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it funny how internet problems almost seem like real problems? Until one party comes to their senses.
> ...


No, you don't. You're unpopular.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Only because Unpopular Photography was too long. I kind of want to change my name to "Fool of Thirds"


----------



## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it funny how internet problems almost seem like real problems? Until one party comes to their senses.
> ...



Here is my response to THAT, my good sir.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Now we're cooking with gas!


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## naptime (Jan 10, 2012)

still my favorite..

this one really reminds me of internet fighting.


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## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

Aww, poor baby. Well, you know what they say. Laughter is the best medicine. Or not.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

naptime said:


> still my favorite..
> 
> this one really reminds me of internet fighting.



"No. I said 'no' first!" 

god, it's like my wife and I.


----------



## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

naptime said:


> still my favorite..
> 
> this one really reminds me of internet fighting.



Don't you think this is more relatable to internet bickering?


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

^^ who video taped the a77 thread?


----------



## naptime (Jan 10, 2012)

that's certainly what i hear when i read most forum arguments.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

So uhm

Anyone care to provide C&C for this image?







(i know)


----------



## Ballistics (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> So uhm
> 
> Anyone care to provide C&C for this image?
> 
> ...



It's crooked.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

wait, what?! no it isn't!

(seriously, though does it look crooked to you, and in what direction?)


----------



## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> So uhm
> 
> Anyone care to provide C&C for this image?
> 
> ...



It's technically perfect. And I have a feeling you already knew this before posting it. :er:


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Maybe I should just start blowing hilights just for attention.


----------



## Derrel (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> So uhm
> 
> Anyone care to provide C&C for this image?
> 
> ...



Pretty good image overall, but I think it has a lot of underutilized, negative space on the left side. I think a crop, something like this, would look better...






It just has a lot more impact cropped like this and shrunken down to a ridiculously small size.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Great suggestion! But when I print it it comes out pixely. It's funny, because when I print the original one it doesn't, at least no more than digital pictures normally do.

Does anyone know why digital photos always come out so pixely? I never had this problem with film.


----------



## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Great suggestion! But when I print it it comes out pixely. It's funny, because when I print the original one it doesn't, at least no more than digital pictures normally do.
> 
> Does anyone know why digital photos always come out so pixely? I never had this problem with film.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

I had "Super resolution" unchecked in the printer window! Duh!

That should certainly fix the problem.


----------



## Ballistics (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> wait, what?! no it isn't!
> 
> (seriously, though does it look crooked to you, and in what direction?)



Haha how can a picture like that be crooked?


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

I think that there are a variety of different learning styles and that comes from this advanced education that the young people have gotten in our schools. Some people know no other way than to brainstorm, some know of no other way than to research for example. I think we have a polarization between these two groups.

Many here study and learn and then apply. It can easily be said that any noob can learn an incredible amount simply by reading and applying what they have learned through that effort to their own work.

Then we have the other style, which is a press the shutter button and upload a photo and here is my work tell me what you think and I will learn from your feedback and our brainstorming in a contolled and encapulated thread. 

Sadly, our education system has created a result where only some people are going to be able to see the big picture, and some will not even know how to work on their own because they are so 'Team Oriented' that they can't work independently, or don't want to because its easier to let someone do it for them. 

I agree with many here, that the critque ought to be limited to tweaks and not a full blown education in photography in one thread. There needs to be a simple and effective way to get that message across when it appears to a more experienced eye that the gap between the photos presented and the steps that we think need to be taken to become accomplished are greater than can be managed. And without knowing what the indiviudal's goals are with photography, we are only assuming that they want to become accomplished. We know some are just brain drains and really don't want to seriously accomplish a darn thing except receiving adulation.

That they can get from family and friends. We are worker-bees here and we work hard at what we do. This is not a High-Five Center for a bunch of like minded shutterbugs. I don't think people undertsand this when they come here to post and the expectations and demands are often wishful thinking rather than reality based.


----------



## ph0enix (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I had "Super resolution" unchecked in the printer window! Duh!
> 
> That should certainly fix the problem.



Quit it already!


----------



## cgipson1 (Jan 10, 2012)

captainobvious1 said:


> blackrose89 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wow.. 2 posts... and you know every thing here. So you either:

#1... a banned individual that is back under another ID...
#2 ... a regular that chooses to make controversial comments under a different ID

I would vote for #1 myself.....


----------



## naptime (Jan 10, 2012)

i vote for two..

sock puppet. big time.


[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQC8QuR7gzw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQC8QuR7gzw




[/URL]


----------



## Robin Usagani (Jan 10, 2012)

Too many pages to read..  I guess I wont participate.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Of all the threads, why is this one so hard to hijack??


----------



## cgipson1 (Jan 10, 2012)

naptime said:


> i vote for two..
> 
> sock puppet. big time.
> 
> ...



CaptainObvious1 has only two (2) posts... both attacking BlackRose... sounds like a personal agenda.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

As if we were all so humble and down to earth when we were in our early 20s. Because I know I was!


----------



## Joel_W (Jan 10, 2012)

Well, I made it through all 10 pages. I'm new here with less then 300 posts, and a few dozen posted photographs. I didn't join because I was a newbie photographer looking for free instruction.  I've been involved with this hobby on and off for about 50 years. Even sold some photographs through a agent back in the 80's, but never considered myself good enough to earn a solid living at it, so it's remained a hobby interest, but one that I take seriously, and try to work at improving my skills both visually and technically (to any older person, all this high tech equipment and programs isn't the easiet things to learn and master).

I joined ATF because I wanted a place to not only to share my photographs (mostly florals), view others work, and have some photographic discussions, but also to have a sense of community. Other sites I've been a member of like Ephotozine is all about just posting and voting on which photos you like. There is very little give and take in the forum sections. 

 I've been putting CC's welcome in all my photo posts, just so that anyone who feels they want to comment, and or critique can, and it's welcome. I don't feel that I need to have a dissertation on every photograph I post, or on most that I view. People do like praise. People do like to hear that they've accomplished something positive, not just what's wrong with it, and why. Most of my pictures don't get many comments, but the threads are looked at. And as I said before, that's all I have the right to expect. 

I was somewhat taken back by the attitude of many of the more seasoned members, who seem to feel that it's their "list responsibility" to offer CC's whenever possible to those newbies that ask for them. If you don't feel you want to because of the influx of new members, or for any other reason, then just don't. There is really no need to have a thread of 10 pages telling us that over and over again. 

It's only human nature for newbies who just got a camera and thought that this would be a great hobby simply because of what a digital camera can do these days, to jump on the bandwagon, thinking that their work is wonderful because it's the best pictures they've ever taken. All they've most likely ever seen are snapshots, and have no real idea of the difference between a snapshot and a good photograph is. Most have probably never even heard the words composition, exposure, and subject matter as it relates to a photograph before.  So they either want to learn, are willing to put in the time and effort, or quickly pack it in. It's there decision. I venture to say that a majority will pack it in, but the remaining ones who ask for help in a beginners forum should get that help. If you've elected to hang in this forum, then helping newbies must be one of your reasons to do so.


----------



## KmH (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Great, now we have two threads whining about critiquing!
> 
> 
> A big issue I see with new members asking for critique, is that so many of them seem to need information spoon fed to them. There are so many books written on all subjects photogaphy, yet helpful people like MTvision have to rewrite those books for every person they respond to. I see many people who seem to never look at other threads, just their own. There is a wealth of information in the numerous CC posts that everyone can learn from. I think it's necessary for beginners to read as many CC posts as they can. In terms of composition, this is a great way to learn by example. There are infinite possibilities in regards to composition, and the more examples you see, and file away in your head, the bigger the pool you can draw from when you are faced with each and every new photographic opportunity that comes along.
> ...


Mods, please make this a sticky.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

_its just the interntz_


----------



## Dao (Jan 10, 2012)

- I do not have problem with a lot of people post photos for CC since my browser has a back button.
- I only CC for those post I like to CC.  It did not really bother me if you post photos for CC and did make an effort.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

Dao said:


> - I only CC for those post I like to CC.  It did not really bother me if you post photos for CC and did make an effort.



I kind of like those posts. They make me feel like an awesome photographer! :thumbup:


----------



## Robin Usagani (Jan 10, 2012)

I am not sure how I am still active here with all of the abuse I got from gsgary, derrel, kmh, bitter, kmh, kundalini, etc. (missing a few people) when I was brand new 20 months ago LMAO.  Made my skin a lot thicker I guess .


----------



## rexbobcat (Jan 10, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> I am not sure how I am still active here with all of the abuse I got from gsgary, derrel, kmh, bitter, kmh, kundalini, etc. (missing a few people) when I was brand new 20 months ago LMAO.  Made my skin a lot thicker I guess .



Eventually you become desensitized to the internet hate machine. After that you slowly begin to lose your humanity.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

And then you have no choice but to become a professional!

In fact, I am meeting with my voc rehab counselor today to talk about an internship. Yay! My Soul is gone!


----------



## KmH (Jan 10, 2012)

Demers18 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do some reading. This sticky thread is on the Beginners forum page: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...rum-photo-gallery/123160-tutorial-thread.html

I repeatedly post these links, often several times a day:
Digital Photography Tutorials

10 Top Photography Composition Rules | Photography Mad

Advanced Composition -- Part I

I have a link to my Blog - How Do I Use My Digital SLR - down there in my siggy &#8595; &#8595; &#8595; &#8595;


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

Damn! I should never sleep. I miss so much here!


----------



## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Damn! I should never sleep. I miss so much here!



Yeah I know the feeling = its worse when I have to weed through it too

I need some kind of personal pet/slave to do my summaries of threads longer than 3 pages for me!!


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Damn! I should never sleep. I miss so much here!



You miss so much, yet nothing at all.

Besides, think about how cranky you would become.


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > Damn! I should never sleep. I miss so much here!
> ...



Ahhhhh, yes... But I am such great entertainment when I am cranky!


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Ahhhhh, yes... But I am such great entertainment when I am cranky!



Very true!!!


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

So happy to be of service! 

Now I have to go shoot. These damn clients are cutting into my TPF time. This sucks.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> So happy to be of service!
> 
> Now I have to go shoot. These damn clients are cutting into my TPF time. This sucks.


What?  You're going to leave us just to go off and take a paying job to make money so you can live???  Lame excuse!!!  Geezzz... talk about a lack of dedication!


----------



## LightSpeed (Jan 10, 2012)

Oh well, I have red through this entire debacle. I was gonna keep my trap shut, but decided to put my 2 cents worth of synopsis in, anyway.
What do I see here? One sock puppet. Several members complaining about new members. Complaining about how it's too hard to give C&C and the new members do not accommodate them.
Complaints that one can't teach anything, unless the new member shows them a willingness to learn, and bla bla bla on and on.
I won't lie in that I agree with some of it........but certainly not ALL of it.

I'm wondering if those of you with this attitude think these new members are coming to this forum, specifically to annoy you?
Here's a newsflash, They're new members with cameras. They don't know what they're doing. Here's another revelation, get this, it's a photo forum.
They probably found the place surfing the net after they got their new cameras, decided to join up, maybe make a buddy or two and get a bit of  friendly advice.
Some of them will even start to look up to some of you, ever think about that?
This condescending crap makes that awful hard to do.* I mean how dare they come in and ask silly questions about photography, in a beginners photography forum?
That's just absurd.* *How dare they post pictures and ask for my C&C in a photo forum.....in the beginners section? That is just down right unacceptable.*
Now how silly does that sound? Be for real. Seriously.

I went off on AMOMENT for over posting the same stuff. I made a mistake when I did that because I wasn't thinking the way I should have.
Not the first mistake, and it damn sure won't be the last. But this doesn't have anything to do with me or my mistakes, now does it?

Disclaimer: I made a few buddies here. They know who they are. And they should know where this post is directed.
It's not to insult anyone. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, or make any enemies. But I am making light of how self centered, egotistical, and overly self righteous some of this crap is. Obviously no one else was going to do it even though they may have thought it.
I'm sorry Keith. I like you, I think you're a wealth of knowledge when to comes to photography but this is one of the silliest threads I've ever seen.........In a beginners forum , no less, right after Christmas when they got their new cameras, stampeded the Internet in search of, and found a ....a..well, a photo forum. COME ON!
Even though, I agree with some of it.

So I wrekon I'll get blasted for using a little common sense. Oh well.
Happy times again. lol


----------



## baturn (Jan 10, 2012)

12 pages - - nothing resolved! Sigh.


----------



## Derrel (Jan 10, 2012)

Did you pay heed to the counts KmH mentioned? Out of 40 threads, the 26 he counted had 76 total photos. That's an average of three photos per post. Three photos per post might be more than is reasonable to expect C&C on during a busy time of year. As he pointed out, the flood of C&C requests has meant that many people were not getting much (or any) C&C.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

baturn said:


> 12 pages - - nothing resolved! Sigh.



With all fairness, one of those pages was just me trolling.


----------



## LightSpeed (Jan 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Did you pay heed to the counts KmH mentioned? Out of 40 threads, the 26 he counted had 76 total photos. That's an average of three photos per post. Three photos per post might be more than is reasonable to expect C&C on during a busy time of year. As he pointed out, the flood of C&C requests has meant that many people were not getting much (or any) C&C.



Yeah, off the the gallows with them.
They did it on purpose in a concerted effort to disrupt the beginners section of the photo forum, in a diabolical plot to take over..............and piss everyone off, whose been here for more than a year.
Come on Derrel, bro.


----------



## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> baturn said:
> 
> 
> > 12 pages - - nothing resolved! Sigh.
> ...



Plus most of the regulars are just letting of steam/trolling/filling in time whilst they should be working/waiting for the kettle to whistle. 

We get these threads from time to time, and whilst the debate can get a little heated its generally a pressure release for many to let of a little steam.


----------



## ph0enix (Jan 10, 2012)

LightSpeed said:


> So I wrekon I'll get blasted for using a little common sense. Oh well.
> Happy times again. lol



Hey LightSpeed, 
I like your spider, bee and moon posts much better than the ones in which you admit to using "little common sense" (you said it, bud!)


----------



## LightSpeed (Jan 10, 2012)

ph0enix said:


> LightSpeed said:
> 
> 
> > So I wrekon I'll get blasted for using a little common sense. Oh well.
> ...




AKKK


----------



## bentcountershaft (Jan 10, 2012)

baturn said:


> 12 pages - - nothing resolved! Sigh.



Generally speaking if a conflict is not resolved within three pages it never will.


----------



## photobykelly (Jan 10, 2012)

It's the internet what can you expect? Things work differently here. lol


----------



## MWC2 (Jan 10, 2012)

OK as someone who doesn't post much (the forum and some of the regular members can be a little intimidating at times), I recently posted for some C&C, I was going to hold off until some of the "Christmas Newbies" fell away but I figured if I waited to long I might be instilling some bad habits that would be hard to break later so I threw caution to the wind and posted.  I got 15 replies to my post (5 were mine thanking everyone for taking the time to give me feedback, so really 10). I got some great feedback/correction as well as some postive feedback. So even thou the forum is busy, people are giving C&C and some of us really appreciate it. 

Ya... that sounded really like a suck up job but I've had 3 cups of coffee in the last 45 mintues and my fingers are really just typing away............ohhh more coffee??? YES PLEASE!


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

photobykelly said:


> It's the internet what can you expect? Things work differently here. lol



because ultimately it doesn't really matter. we just like to hear ourselves pontificate, we like to feel outrage in our boring, overly comfortable lives.

If any of use truly had something to be passionate about, we would not be here yammering about whatever we're yammering about.

I still have no idea what this thread is about - and neither do you or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm here for the "like's" of it!


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

OMG THE SUN.

later guys


----------



## dwightdegroff (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm mostly a lurker here, just taking note of the CC that other people get and trying to apply it to my own photography. That said, I have noticed that posters who take the time to post what their intentions were surrounding the photo, some thought process, etc. seem to enable other members to post more meaningful feedback.

Back on the first or second page it was suggested that a separate "Beginner's C&C" sub-section be opened. I think that would be a great idea, as well as some additional posting requirements for that section. Not just numbering your photos, but perhaps listing settings used for the capture(to ensure a minimum level of homework done), an maybe a sentence or two giving an intent behind the image as well as self-critique.

I think that would go a long way towards achieving the following goals:
1. Posters put effort into the process: getting to know their own photos before asking other people to do the same
2. Give others an immediate indication that the poster is serious about the process and is not simply looking for a "pat on the back".
3. Posters will not have to worry about their good-intentioned posts being lost in the jungle of dreaded "snapshots" (the horror - lol)


People who are only looking for an audience can continue posting in the beginners section as they do now, and veterans looking to help new members know where to go to have the best impact.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

dwightdegroff said:


> ...as well as some additional posting requirements for that section. Not just numbering your photos, but perhaps listing settings used for the capture(to ensure a minimum level of homework done), an maybe a sentence or two giving an intent behind the image as well as self-critique.



That's required at several other forums I have visited.


----------



## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> dwightdegroff said:
> 
> 
> > ...as well as some additional posting requirements for that section. Not just numbering your photos, but perhaps listing settings used for the capture(to ensure a minimum level of homework done), an maybe a sentence or two giving an intent behind the image as well as self-critique.
> ...



That would be  certainly requirement if we had a C&C subsection. The way I see it beginners only became the C&C area as a result of a choice to allow photos to be posted there since so many beginners would stick photos in there rather than in the galleries. It's a bit of a dividing point since on the one hand many beginner questions often directly relate to photos they've taken (even if their opening post has no photos many giving advise ask to see them); whilst on the other restricting photos in that section increases the moderator burden to shift them around into the right areas. 

The thing is if we start to make critique more pro in the beginners section its giving a very heavy bias toward beginners to get critique. As a result intermediate and advanced level photographers are going to follow suit and the beginners area will increase in popularity as a place for people to simply put their C&C photos (because it will be where the critique is given and where proper posting for it is enforced).


----------



## Derrel (Jan 10, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> As a result intermediate and advanced level photographers are going to follow suit and the beginners area will increase in popularity as a place for people to simply put their C&C photos (because it will be where the critique is given and where proper posting for it is enforced).



The Beginner's forum has *already* become "a dumping grounds" for C&C requests!!!


----------



## MWC2 (Jan 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When does one gradute to the "intermediate" or "advanced" level?  I know I'm not ready (no where near ready) but I've always wondered if it's a self graduated program (when the poster feels they are ready) or are you asked to start posting in the next level up?  Curious minds want to know


----------



## Demers18 (Jan 10, 2012)

KmH said:


> Demers18 said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...



I have read most of those and will continually refer to them, thank you for posting them. 
I remember you mentioning those in another thread when I first joined the forum and I read them, even the one in your signature and they helped. I am also in the process of reading Bryan Peterson's: Understanding Photography Field Guide for technique and The Art of Photography: An Approach to Personal Expression by Bruce Barnbaum for composition and better understanding the art of it all. Not to mention all the youtube video's and other blogs tips, tutorials I can find.
I've learned to not post too many images for CC as it's simply too much. I like to think that I've improved just from posting on here and and taking the CC that was provided and applying it the next time I shoot.
I can read all the books I want and learn and apply all that I am learning but that will only take you so far. Constructive Criticism aka CC, will help you realize that yes your shots are getting better, but how do you improve on those and or what am I missing to make that shot great. When you read the book, you can only interpret in the best of your ability and the CC helps guide you in the direction you may not have though of. 
Anyway, I know I'm probably rambling on here but I feel strongly about this as for me, the books, blogs tutorials are great but I learn more from trial and error combined with honest critique and guidance than strictly from reading(also doing the exercises as you read). 
We all learn differently


----------



## jwbryson1 (Jan 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> "*Wholly*" C&C Batman!!! Pretty darned clever joke there Keith!!!
> 
> Yeah, the C&C thing has become just simply HUGE in the Beginner's Forum...I was attributing it to new cameras and the Christmas season, and such. I admit, the FLOOD of requests for C&C has sort of numbed my senses...just...too..many...requests...every...day....they....never...seeem...to...stop....



For the record, I've never met anybody, ANYBODY, ANYBODY who loves periods (.....) as much as Derrell.    That is all. Carry on.......


----------



## jwbryson1 (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I'm here for the "like's" of it!



Your "like" to "posts" percentage is BITCHIN' dude.


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> Plus most of the regulars are just letting of steam/trolling/filling in time whilst they should be working/waiting for the kettle to whistle.
> 
> We get these threads from time to time, and whilst the debate can get a little heated its generally a pressure release for many to let of a little steam.



Interesting. 

How I see the issue is that this site is a resource. Like the Encyclopedia Britanica. 

You have to read and research the question or topic and then understand what you are reading. 

This is only one place to do that among many, many others. 

No one here is paid to read anything to anybody and no one that comes here has the right to expect undivided attention. It's a resource room. 

If someone wants to post a photo and ask for advice they can as well, but insist on responses or get whiney because there are none or few or they don't like what they heard? Go to the public library then and see if you can do better. 

Yes we have other work to do and because we like to be able to offer help to others is why some of us do take the time to volunteer to offer that help and can include a little thing called encouragement from time to time for the person when it's warranted.


----------



## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

tirediron said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > So happy to be of service!
> ...


If only I could figure out how to  make TPF actually pay. *SIGH*
And I have to do it again this evening. WHY my mortgage thinks it needs paid every damn month is beyond me. Jeesh. I just paid the darned thing a few weeks ago. Don't I ever get a break???


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

Let me add that I engage in more idle dialog during the work day than critique as I don't value what I see on the iPhone while at work as a truly fair method of seeing a shot.


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

AND... I cant even LIKES anyones posts on the iPhone during the day. Talk about a giant waste of a workday. 

So there.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Jan 10, 2012)

Soon this thread will have more "likes" than girls of TPF.  Maybe it does already?



Bitter Jeweler said:


> I'm here for the "like's" of it!


----------



## Robin Usagani (Jan 10, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> AND... I cant even LIKES anyones posts on the iPhone during the day.
> 
> So there.



Yes you can.. It takes skill though!  LOL.  Just put your finger where you think the like is, it will show up.  Dont use the App.


----------



## Big Mike (Jan 10, 2012)

I haven't read through the 200 posts of this thread, but I'll stick my nose in, right about here....


Overread said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > dwightdegroff said:
> ...



Most of you haven't been around here long enough to remember the several different incarnations of the 'critique section'.  We have tried it a few different ways, and it always melted down into a big mess...often with a lot of bad feelings.  A big part of the issue was moderation.  The more rules we put in, the more heavily it has to be moderated.  It's not about the amount of work required (although that's certainly as issue), it's about the mods having to make so many judgements on people's comments and trying to interpret their intentions (in terms of the rules of the critique section).  

So that's why it's been 'on the shelf' for the last several years.  

I would think that we are still open to the idea of adding a specific critique section, but nobody has really come forward with a concrete idea of how to run it (in a way that hasn't already been tried and failed).


----------



## sm4him (Jan 10, 2012)

Just read every single post in this thread, all at once (yeah, don't ask how long that took...) and here is my insightful assessment of the whole affair:

Some of ya'll need to get out and breath some fresh air.


----------



## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

On the other photoforum they have a critique section. I really didn't like it. It makes things really complicated, and nobody is really sure where the boundary is. Is it ok to critique images in the gallery section? Should critiques only go into the critique section? If I can't critique images in the gallery section, what is there to discuss? 

In the end, you get a hodgepodge of themeless images without any sense of context asking for critique. Do I critique this image as if it were an abstract? Do I critique this one as if it was a documentary? Do I critique this one as if it were a landscape? It's really hard to critique images without any basis of their intent. And the gallery section became endless pages of :thumbup:

(except on mine ofcourse)

Photo.net has a "no words" section filled with "street photographs" of young women's panties, taken by rich old dudes with Leicas. I don't really understand the no words section. but if it gives a place for people to go if their too much of an cold noodle to receive feedback, I'm ok with it.

As for the 1000+ Club, that would be _awsome_


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> I would think that we are still open to the idea of adding a specific critique section, but nobody has really come forward with a concrete idea of how to run it (in a way that hasn't already been tried and failed).



I'd be up for opening one just to take the C&C posts out of Beginners (dumping ground) and even the field to all can ask for C&C. Even without any additional rules or regulations over the section as just something to break up the post structure. If it were made as a separate subsection we could then add something like a "pro critique" which would be more heavily moderated. It at least gets around the fact that this is about the only large site on the net without a dedicated section specifically for critique.


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## Big Mike (Jan 10, 2012)

We can certainly talk it over among the mod/admin team.


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## naptime (Jan 10, 2012)

unpopular said:


> a "no words" section filled with "street photographs" of young women's panties, taken by rich old dudes with Leicas.
> 
> As for the 1000+ Club, that would be _awsome_



i'm having trouble finding that thread. _*please help *_ :hug::



a 1000+ club.. hmmmmmmmm gimme a week


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > AND... I cant even LIKES anyones posts on the iPhone during the day.
> ...



And you have to sorta double tap it, then it takes you to the top of the page. So then you have to scroll back down to continue reading. It's a PITA, really. LOL


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

MWC2 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...


 
You upgrade when someone asks why you just posted in the beginner section. LOL


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

eacesign:I'm home now and I have a whole lotta Likin' to do!!!


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## jake337 (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> MWC2 said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



There are "intermediate" and "advanced" level sections?


I was going to say the opposite, post in the advanced section and they'll let you know if you should be there or not.


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

Just a note -  but no more likes for Bitter --- he's reached his countdown and now has to wait a whole year before he's allowed any more likes!


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

Overread said:


> Just a note -  but no more likes for Bitter --- he's reached his countdown and now has to wait a whole year before he's allowed any more likes!



Jealous???? :badangel:


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Just a note -  but no more likes for Bitter --- he's reached his countdown and now has to wait a whole year before he's allowed any more likes!
> ...



Naws - but its bad for forum moral with him being liked soo much above the rest of us mortals


(asides if I were jealous I could cheat --- )


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

Overread said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...




Over...here in the US they have decided that its not OK to give everyone on the team a trophy just for playing...


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

Thankfully we don't have a trophies feature on the site


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## cmartin2 (Jan 10, 2012)

I realize that I am (only a couple hundred posts) late to the game, but I really value the C&C posts and would love for them to be their own section. I am brand new to the forum, but have posted my own C&C and really enjoy reading through the C&Cs that others post as well. I try to make my own critiques in my head and then see how they compare to what is said by people who actually know what they are talking about  If C&Cs were there own section it would make it that much easier to browse through to try to continue learning. I have read books and articles and am trying to learn, but sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. Especially more abstract things like composition where just seeing more and more examples is really how I believe you learn. Seeing great photos helps, but not as much as seeing an almost great photo get some good critique about what could make it better.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

:cheers:....oooohhh maybe we should! 

We could give a trophy for:

mmmmm......


Most Helpful

Most Improved

Most ______________

Let's do it monthy.

Encouragement!!!


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## mwcfarms (Jan 10, 2012)

Most catty, 
Most douche like, 
Most likely needing a punch in their mangina?

Hahaha ok I kid I'm bored waitin for piZza!


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

mwcfarms said:


> Most catty,
> Most douche like,
> Most likely needing a punch in their mangina?
> 
> Hahaha ok I kid I'm bored waitin for piZza!



Feed the fire then...

Don't leave it for the girls to have to heave for then...

Most dick like

Most scummy

Most needing a kick in the Balls

Its Equal Opportunity...unless of course if you don't particlualry like a particular person...

But those things fit all sorts of females too. 

And I already ate dinner.


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## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

I get the mom award. Bitter? 

I really don't have a big care one way or another regarding a cc section, but I'll gladly give my opinion on the whole deal (cuz I like giving my 2 cents any time I possibly can...)
Most forums I participate in have a CC forum or some place you know is designated for CC. It's not necessarily a beginner CC forum, just CC. The most successful ones do have some good guidelines to them, however that really isn't a big deal either. The thing here that I stumble upon is that I have no idea what is or isn't a CC category. I have probably been reprimanded for cc where it wasn't supposed to be. I have no idea where I'd fall into the scheme of things to actually get feedback on here. I do know if it was macro I could start at the beginners of the beginners forum... otherwise? I dunno. The only time I have gotten some CC is when I was asking for some sports help and in the extreme cc post a while back-awesome cc on that one for me. 
I do like in this forum that I WILL get full REAL cc. Elsewhere I have always gotten next to nothing for feedback. Kind of like people won't cc those with some knowledge and skill-not a problem here and that is a HUGE benefit when I need help. 
I digress... ANYWAY... Reading through the forums and figuring out what is what, where things go in this forum is kind of complicated in many instances. One of which is especially the request for CC. I do think a CC section is beneficial to those wanting it and to those who are giving it. 
If it happens? AWESOME. If not? Fine by me!


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 10, 2012)

You can have the Most Giving of Self Trophy as you deserve it!


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

MLeek - based on the forum rules about the only place you won't get C&C is in the "Just for Fun" gallery. The other galleries are all open to C&C, its only in the last year and a half or so that the beginners section has dominated more as a result of relaxing of photo posting rules in that section.


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## naptime (Jan 10, 2012)

how did we get to 15 pages WITHOUT photo guy?


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## Derrel (Jan 10, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> I haven't read through the 200 posts of this thread, but I'll stick my nose in, right about here....
> 
> 
> Overread said:
> ...



The reason nobody has come forward with a concrete idea of how to do a C&C section is that this type of forum CAN NOT BE MOLDED to PRE-DETERMINED "rules". Rules made with good intentions, and noble intentions, or even no intentions, will ALWAYS, always,always be overridden by human nature, and the will of the majority. The people who think they are smart enough to create and impose rules by fiat are repeatedly disappointed when the public will not go along with their narrow-minded ideas,concepts, rules, or silly ideas. We've seen this over and over when forum "behavior" and sub-sections deviate from the stated mission statements (i.e. the rules) that forum administrators have come up with. The people who keep this forum going are the people who post here...not the people who own the forum's title and revenue stream. The idea that rules and guidelines can be imposed by fiat just simply does NOT reflect the realities of internet forums, of all types. Alas, it does not reflect the real world, traffic, behavior, cell phone use and/or texting while driving, jay-walking, theft, vandalism, robbery,homicide, embezzlement, and so on.

The posters here who advocate self-learning, reading of manuals (RFTM, Understanding Exposure,etc.,etc.), numbering of images, NO links to photos hosted off-site,etc,etc--ALL OF THAT IS A LOSING CAUSE. Ain't....gonna...happen...there...will...always...be...people...who...don't...know...or...care about...the..."rules". And so, as KmH noted, in The Beginner's Forum, there were 40 posts asking for C&C this morning, and in 26 of them, there were 76 pictures for which C&C was requested.

Some people complained earlier in this thread about "the regulars" and high post count members complaining about this issue...well, with that many images to C&C, why don't you "complainers" and "low post count members" get off your lazy butts and DO SOME C&C yourselves??? 

Instead of bitching about other people who have been doing the work here, and creating content, well how about one or two or three of you ("you know who you are"), get off your complaining posteriors, and mow through 10 or 12 newbie C&C posts, right NOW??? I mean, instead of complaining about KmH and his post. You know--like, DO SOMETHING to make it better YOURSELVES!!!!!!


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## Overread (Jan 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Ain't....gonna...happen...there...will...always...be...people...who...don't...know...or...care about...the..."rules".



This - is why mods have a ban button  
Works really well on spambots it do


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## unpopular (Jan 10, 2012)

... would it be a good idea if people were encouraged to list precisely what areas they want feedback, i.e. focus, color, general technical, artistic, content, intent etc?


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## mjhoward (Jan 10, 2012)

I havn't read all of this thread but I have to believe it has broken 3 TPF records...  most views, most replies, and most freakin' likes within a 24 hr period.


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## mwcfarms (Jan 10, 2012)

mjhoward said:


> I havn't read all of this thread but I have to believe it has broken 3 TPF records...  most views, most replies, and most freakin' likes within a 24 hr period.



Might be tied with the girls of TPF thread.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 10, 2012)

Overread said:


> Thankfully we don't have a trophies feature on the site


Oooooh! WANT!!


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## MLeeK (Jan 10, 2012)

Has it beat out the "Is There Any Point to Learning SS, ISO and Aperture" thread? I thought that sucker was going to go on forever.


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## thinkricky (Jan 10, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> You have too much time on your hands. LOL



Lol


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## thinkricky (Jan 10, 2012)

There should be someone on here that give opposite advice contradicting everything.


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## baturn (Jan 11, 2012)

Just saw Derrel's post about those who should stop "complaining" and help with the C&C. Perhaps youshould read the whole thread again. It was started by one of the biggest and best contributor's complaints. Most of the rest of the complaints were by the folks who do the most  and best C&Cing. Alot of us folks with low post counts are just along for the ride and free education. Thank you all, sincerely.


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## GnipGnop (Jan 11, 2012)

Do these threads usually last this long? Get out and practice creating people!


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## naptime (Jan 11, 2012)

GnipGnop said:


> Do these threads usually last this long? Get out and practice creating people!



i really hate it when people say things like this.

as if people are only allowed to live their lives from behind their camera's.

people work, people sociallize online, they watch tv, etc..

alsways find it so silly when someone says get off the computer and go do blank blank blank.

or you would be so much better if you applied your time to pictures instead of the forum, etc...

just find it silly. very silly.

if YOU choose to do that, that's great. but why should others?


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## Big Mike (Jan 12, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> :cheers:....oooohhh maybe we should!
> 
> We could give a trophy for:
> 
> ...


I won 'most helpful' back in 2005 or 2006.  :er:


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## MLeeK (Jan 12, 2012)

It's the post that keeps on giving!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 12, 2012)

Like pulling a thread from a sweater.


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## mishele (Jan 12, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Like pulling a thread from a sweater.



I can't believe I missed 2012!!!!! Was there a party?!!


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## Derrel (Jan 12, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > :cheers:....oooohhh maybe we should!
> ...



I won "Most Outstanding Athlete" back in 1972 and 1973. Seriously. School-wide, all age groups, I won ALL of my events, and set new records in broad jump one year, and sprints the next.


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## Demers18 (Jan 12, 2012)

Derrel said:
			
		

> I won "Most Outstanding Athlete" back in 1972 and 1973. Seriously. School-wide, all age groups, I won ALL of my events, and set new records in broad jump one year, and sprints the next.



I won't say what I won in my last year of high School, none of you would believe me lol


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## Big Mike (Jan 12, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > GeorgieGirl said:
> ...


I won my Jr. High School's Most Outstanding Athelete...I think it was 1989 or 1990.  One of my classmates later played in the NHL and one played in the NLL (Lacrosse).
In high school, I became captain of the football team & the rugby team.  Ran on the 4x100 relay team and was the only one to represent the school in pole vaulting.  
I would have received the schools 'major' sports award, but they messed up and I ended up getting two 'minor' awards.  One for Mike Hodson and one for Mike Hudson.  :roll:


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## Overread (Jan 12, 2012)

I won a shoulder bag at a camera club photo outing trip once!

That has to be better than all those sports awards that I never won


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## cgipson1 (Jan 12, 2012)

I was voted Most Likely to Go to Prison at my High School... I just haven't been caught yet!   Does that count?


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## MLeeK (Jan 12, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> I was voted Most Likely to Go to Prison at my High School... I just haven't been caught yet!   Does that count?


Hmmmm, Charlie...


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## Demers18 (Jan 12, 2012)

Well I'll just say it... 
I won the the prize for best looking guy my grad year. I don't know what those girls were smoking but it must have been good. I won an Archie tie. Actually still have it. I'll post a pic of it later.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I was 1st Runner Up for Queen of the Prom...


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## unpopular (Jan 12, 2012)

In 9th grade my friend and I had the same GPA at midterm: 0.2


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