# Nikon: CLS vs SU-800 vs Pocketwizard?



## Markw

Hey everyone.  To make it short and simple, I have VERY little experience in the world of speedlites.  I have used my SB-600 with the popup flash a bunch of times, but nothing extensive.  I have used a few SB-700s for this series.  I squeezed through that one by the skin of my teeth.  Almost all of my lighting work has been done with studio-style strobes, wired to the camera.  Well, I'd really, _really_ like to get into speedlites more extensively.  I love the versatility and portability of a speedlite setup.  Sooooo, here's my question to you:

What are the functionality differences between using the popup flash as commander, using a master flash as commander, using the SU-800 as commander, and using pocket wizards in terms of _____________ can do __________, but ____________ can't?

As you can tell, I'm very early in my research. :blushing:

Thanks in advance,
Mark


----------



## Garbz

Well for some differences to get you started:

- Master flash as commander gives you more features (more groups and settings) than your built in flash. Also gives you the ability to shoot high power on camera if for some bizarre reason you want to do that. 
- SU-800. Gives you all the features of the above sans the flash. As the transmission is purely IR there's no on camera flash light getting back into your picture. (Even with the flash disabled of really reflective surfaces like glass / mirrors it'll still contribute to the exposure). Naturally you get no on camera flash using the SU-800.
- Pocket wizards are radio triggers. The others transmit via light. Light transmission works well indoors but for instance outdoors the SU-800/Speedlight/Oncamera flash will fail to trigger a light behind you, the pocket wizard won't. 
- Cheap radio triggers. These are quite viable too and much cheaper than the Pocket Wizards. Like the Cactus v?... errr last I checked v3 but who knows right now. Their downsides are lack of TTL triggering, and often they fail in timing when you approach your sync speed so at 1/250th you may find half the picture not actually exposed correctly.


----------



## ratssass

FWIW I'm sniffing around the subject myself.While not sure about wch direction I want to pursue (flash/strobes) I do know I'm not going to count on IR (infrared) to get the job done.RF (radio frequency) has more range.You're not limited by range (well,to a point),or line of sight.RF (w/channels) just seems the way to go IMO.


----------



## pixmedic

View attachment 33080


----------



## 2WheelPhoto

PW's if the only thing that matters is you don't use "2nd best"  and need them to work no matter what and/or how far


----------



## pixmedic

2WheelPhoto said:


> PW's if the only thing that matters is you don't use "2nd best"  and need them to work no matter what and/or how far



definitely...spring for the wizards.


----------



## TheFantasticG

Depends on use. For me CLS does just fine for macro and what little portraits of my family and friends that I do. Of course, if I was paid I'd be using PWs. I use CLS with (2) SB-R200s, (1) SB-600, and (1) SB-700. I do find it nice using the SB-700 as a commander...


----------



## cgipson1

Mark,

The posts above covered the topic pretty well. A quick summary:

IR (CLS) flaky in bright outdoor light... past a couple of feet. Needs line of sight. (works pretty well indoors though assuming line of sight) 

Cheap wireless triggers usually have about a 300 ft. range, and do have some sync issues past 1/100.. some are lucky to do 1/60. Aren't always 100% reliable.

Poket wizards have much longer range (up to 1600 feet), and are known for reliability. TT5 series is TTL capable if you need it, and will do High Speed flash sync up to 1/8000. The new Plus three series is manual only, but has many other cool features like being able to use them as a repeater if needed to even get longer range. PW's can also act as a remote trigger for your camera / camera's if needed. Pocket Wizards have the advantage also of being able to save profiles for different types of shoots.. when you need that profile, you just connect it to the PC, and change the profile.... easy! They also have update-able firmware, so you get the latest enhancements.


----------



## KmH

The SU-800 puts out a much stronger IR signal that a pop-up flash does.

However CLS, pop-up, Master hot shoe flash,  SU-800, is limited in range and pretty much to line-of-sight. You have to make sure off camera speedlights have their IR detection window pointed towards the IR signal generator.

In direct sunlight the CLS IR signal range is degraded because the Sun emits a lot of IR light.

With radio triggering, of any kind, range increases several fold, line-of-sight is no longer an issue, and direct sunlight has zero affect.

There are now other radio trigger brands less expensive than Pocket Wizards that allow off camera TTL functionality and FP Sync.


----------



## greybeard

OK, here is what I know.  The pop up flash works fine inside.  You can disable it and from my experience it doesn't contribute significantly to the pic.  The popup flash on my D7000 is limited to 2 groups (A & B) as is the SB700 when used as a commander, I don't know about your D700.  The SU-800 is IR only and doesn't produce any pre-flashes which can cause a lot of people to blink.  It also supports 3 groups (A B & C).  From what I have read, the TTL radio trigger  to look at these days is called RADIO POPPER.  RadioPopper


----------



## cgipson1

greybeard said:


> OK, here is what I know.  The pop up flash works fine inside.  You can disable it and from my experience it doesn't contribute significantly to the pic.  The popup flash on my D7000 is limited to 2 groups (A & B) as is the SB700 when used as a commander, I don't know about your D700.  The SU-800 is IR only and doesn't produce any pre-flashes which can cause a lot of people to blink.  It also supports 3 groups (A B & C).  From what I have read, the TTL radio trigger  to look at these days is called RADIO POPPER.  RadioPopper



Radio Poppers work very well.. I just hate the brackets they use (bulky)... just that much more to carry. And I don't like putting sticky back velrco on my equipment to hold the Transceiver (like they recommend).


----------



## Rob99

I went best of both worlds, my sb-600s as slaves on some pw flexes and a su-800 mounted on a pw mini. I can control every flash from the camera and not worry about the IR finding it. There's a video on pocketwizards website about controlling speedlights this way.

Inside the su-800 is almost always fine by itself, if you get good with it you can even bounce the IR signal around corners. Outside is a little different because there is nothing to bounce the IR off of, that's where radio triggers really help.


----------



## Markw

Thank you all very much!



Rob99 said:


> I went best of both worlds, my sb-600s as slaves on some pw flexes and a su-800 mounted on a pw mini. I can control every flash from the camera and not worry about the IR finding it. There's a video on pocketwizards website about controlling speedlights this way.
> 
> Inside the su-800 is almost always fine by itself, if you get good with it you can even bounce the IR signal around corners. Outside is a little different because there is nothing to bounce the IR off of, that's where radio triggers really help.



I saw this too.  The one by Mark Wallace from Adorama?  But I saw it on Youtube.  This is obviously the ideal setup, as far as I see it.

Mark


----------



## Rob99

Markw said:


> I saw this too.  The one by Mark Wallace from Adorama?  But I saw it on Youtube.  This is obviously the ideal setup, as far as I see it.



Yeah, that's the one. It was the ideal set up for me that's for sure...reliable, portable and easy to use. I picked up my su-800 used on keh for $149, with the intention of trying it out and if I didn't like it I wouldn't lose much on a resale but it's not going anywhere.


----------



## greybeard

Anyone seen these yet?
Yongnuo YN-622C YN 622 Wireless E TTL HSS 1/8000S Flash Trigger 2 Transceivers for Canon | YongNuo photo equipment online store

Canon only for now but Nikon will follow.


----------



## cgipson1

Rob99 said:


> I went best of both worlds, my sb-600s as slaves on some pw flexes and a su-800 mounted on a pw mini. I can control every flash from the camera and not worry about the IR finding it. There's a video on pocketwizards website about controlling speedlights this way.
> 
> Inside the su-800 is almost always fine by itself, if you get good with it you can even bounce the IR signal around corners. Outside is a little different because there is nothing to bounce the IR off of, that's where radio triggers really help.



That does work pretty well when I am using the Speedlights for anything serious. I usually use the SU-800 on my R1C1 macro setup... but it does work well with the TT5's!


----------



## greybeard

The PW mini, SU-800, and Flex really does look like the class way to go if you can afford it.


----------



## cgipson1

greybeard said:


> Anyone seen these yet?
> Yongnuo YN-622C YN 622 Wireless E TTL HSS 1/8000S Flash Trigger 2 Transceivers for Canon | YongNuo photo equipment online store
> 
> Canon only for now but Nikon will follow.



Neat.. but I will stick to my PW's for reliability and range! Yongnuo does make some good stuff though... and it is getting better!


----------

