# Anyone here have a (higher level) degree in Photography?



## elizpage

This isn't meant to be a biting comment, I am just legitimately curious on who has an education.

I am thinking of enrolling in an Art & Design school to get a MFA in Photography. I want to grow intellectually and artistically. In other words, this isn't just for financial reasons in growing my business. By the way, I got my Bachelor's recently in Mass Media Arts, which is related to Video Production and Telecommunications.

Personally, even as a new photographer, I feel skeptical about hiring a photographer who is "self-taught" because it could really mean anything (unless their work is exemplary) It shows a lot of dedication and perserverence to actually pursue a degree in your craft. 

I paid $400 for 11 shots and a 1.5 hour session with a photographer with 8 years of experience and a degree. I paid this amount because I respected her way of doing business and work. She had a smart way of presenting her portfolio as well. 

I wouldn't pay myself $400 for that amount of work, due to my experience level and lack of education. 

I also refused to pay $300 for a larger body of photos from an extremely rude photographer, who refused to budge on her $300 sitting fee for what was absolutely awful work. She also had a hideous watermark consisting of a heart and her name that covered up almost 10% of all of her images. She went so far as to say that I was "superficial" for giving her some pointers on her watermark after she submitted the quote in to me. Isn't photography somewhat of a "superficial" craft? It's all about the way something presents itself and looks, including the watermark. 

Getting back to my point.. 

How would an education benefit me? What do you guys think?


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## SnappingShark

I think an education will give you better understanding of the elements of photography - lighting, setups, equipment, methods and stuff like that - also introduce you to artists and their work, and show you how to be creative.

What it won't do, is allow you to BE creative yourself - I think this is something that regardless of education, only you can do. Nobody else knows your thoughts or sees your shots as your mind does.

Photography is about a story told through a lens, and it isn't always technically perfect. For me, choosing a wedding photographer was about the work she had done, not what letters she has after her name.


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## tirediron

I have 30+ years of hands-on experience and have attended many seminars and workshops, and am always willing to learn.  From anyone.  A degree in photography?   Yeah... sure... okay.  As soon as someone can explain to me how the final exam will be graded.  Seriously... photography is an art.  You can teach the mechanics of lighting, exposure, etc and you can teach compositional theory but at the end of the day, the results are purely subjective.

I would submit that the degree had little, or more likely nothing to do with your decision about which photographer to hire, and attitude and presentation did.  If you want to spend money on a photographic education, then take business and entrepreneurship training, basic accounting & marketing and spend your evenings watching Creative Live and Adorama TV for information on the technical side of things.  

As for dedication, well I suppose spending four years at school does show a certain type of dedication, but IMO, those four years could much better be spent learning and growing your business and gaining real world experience.

YMMV


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## Braineack

if you're going to start a business, it would probably be wise to know how to business...


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## sscarmack

I disagree with schooling. Don't get me wrong, school is good for some. But not all.


I learned by doing, failing and making thousands of mistakes.


Oh and of course google and youtube.


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## runnah

I didn't even know there was a degree in photography.


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## DarkShadow

Nope.I am getting a hands on degree.I have a degree in F-ups. though.


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## elizpage

tirediron said:


> I have 30+ years of hands-on experience and have attended many seminars and workshops, and am always willing to learn.  From anyone.  A degree in photography?   Yeah... sure... okay.  As soon as someone can explain to me how the final exam will be graded.  Seriously... photography is an art.  You can teach the mechanics of lighting, exposure, etc and you can teach compositional theory but at the end of the day, the results are purely subjective.
> 
> I would submit that the degree had little, or more likely nothing to do with your decision about which photographer to hire, and attitude and presentation did.  If you want to spend money on a photographic education, then take business and entrepreneurship training, basic accounting & marketing and spend your evenings watching Creative Live and Adorama TV for information on the technical side of things.
> 
> As for dedication, well I suppose spending four years at school does show a certain type of dedication, but IMO, those four years could much better be spent learning and growing your business and gaining real world experience.
> 
> YMMV



Well, that's awesome you are always willing to learn even though you have so much experience already. I clicked the link and took a look at some of your recent work and well.. there's just nothing about it that sets it apart (in my humble opinion of course) I think that's more important than the work being technically perfect. Since it says: _&#8203;Tell me what you think _I figured I would. I also think that it's very traditional, which is good for some people (probably the vast majority). 

I guess I just proved your point then that the results will always be subjective  Some people love my work, and others think it's awful. I don't have a huge body of work yet, though. And I'm always willing to try new things. Let me know what you think of mine when you can. Don't be too harsh, but be honest of your opinion of course!


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## elizpage

DarkShadow said:


> Nope.I am getting a hands on degree.I have a degree in F-ups. though.


Haha. I like that. Don't we all?


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## elizpage

Braineack said:


> if you're going to start a business, it would probably be wise to know how to business...


That's a good point. Business degrees are very useful, not only for photography


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## hombredelmar

The best degree is your portfolio, I don&#8217;t care about that piece of paper on the wall , it means nothing. 
I am sure that many of us know many great photographers, who have no degree in photography and who would get hired on the spot based on the reputation and work done. There are things that you don&#8217;t get from school its either you have them or not.


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## elizpage

hombredelmar said:


> The best degree is your portfolio, I don&#8217;t care about that piece of paper on the wall , it means nothing.
> I am sure that many of us know many great photographers, who have no degree in photography and who would get hired on the spot based on the reputation and work done. There are things that you don&#8217;t get from school its either you have them or not.


Yeah. You all have good points.. I was just curious on peoples' thoughts


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## Designer

elizpage said:


> I got my Bachelor's recently in Mass Media Arts..
> How would an education benefit me?



Are you capable of attending more college, as in; financially and time available?

IMO, a business degree (or classes) would help you build and maintain a business, and art classes would help with photography.  IMO a photography degree is not going to be of much value unless you want to get a job working for another photographer.  Almost nobody cares about a formal education when engaging the services of a photographer.   You could probably get as much or possibly even more respect by joining a professional photographer's association.


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## Tee

I think if you want to pursue photography as a journey of artistic improvement, you need to enroll at a *very reputable* school that focuses on studio light and shadows.  That may sound obvious but you'd be surprised at how many schools barely touch on lighting and artistic merit. 

I'm not one to discourage against schools but it appears to me in your postings that you're looking for a quick fix or someone to help you make it all click.  You live in a large enough geographic to get off the internet and hit up some classes and network.  It took me one hands on class to understand the technical aspect of how to set-up lighting but it is a never ending process of learning the creative side.


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## Vince.1551

Fine art degree majoring in photography is not just about photography. A lot has to do with understanding and appreciating fine art and the history as well. There isn't as much practical photography as one would have wished. However it provides a deeper understanding of how art is being defined.


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## tirediron

elizpage said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have 30+ years of hands-on experience and have attended many seminars and workshops, and am always willing to learn. From anyone. A degree in photography?  Yeah... sure... okay. As soon as someone can explain to me how the final exam will be graded. Seriously... photography is an art. You can teach the mechanics of lighting, exposure, etc and you can teach compositional theory but at the end of the day, the results are purely subjective.
> 
> I would submit that the degree had little, or more likely nothing to do with your decision about which photographer to hire, and attitude and presentation did. If you want to spend money on a photographic education, then take business and entrepreneurship training, basic accounting & marketing and spend your evenings watching Creative Live and Adorama TV for information on the technical side of things.
> 
> As for dedication, well I suppose spending four years at school does show a certain type of dedication, but IMO, those four years could much better be spent learning and growing your business and gaining real world experience.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's awesome you are always willing to learn even though you have so much experience already. I clicked the link and took a look at some of your recent work and well.. there's just nothing about it that sets it apart (in my humble opinion of course) I think that's more important than the work being technically perfect. Since it says: _&#8203;Tell me what you think _I figured I would. I also think that it's very traditional, which is good for some people (probably the vast majority).
> 
> I guess I just proved your point then that the results will always be subjective  Some people love my work, and others think it's awful. I don't have a huge body of work yet, though. And I'm always willing to try new things. Let me know what you think of mine when you can. Don't be too harsh, but be honest of your opinion of course!
Click to expand...

Fair comment; I know that my biggest failing as a photographer is lack of creative 'vision', but I like to think that I provide my clients with what they want.  You have some nice work on your 'site, and while it's not necessarily to my taste I can appreciate it, but I suspect that my client base is probably significantly older than yours; for whatever reason, probably 3/4 of my retail clients are in the 65+ range, and the more traditional, studio-style seems to appeal to them.


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## sm4him

On the extremely rare occasions in the past decade when I've needed to actually "hire" a photographer (or when I've helped someone else decide who to hire), I cannot remember ONE single instance when I even paid any attention to whether or not the person had a Photography degree.
The biggest factors in making my/our decision were:

1. Portfolio/Body of Work. A person may have NO formal training but do excellent work; conversely, a person may have a degree and maybe even some technical proficiency but not produce anything I'd want to hang on my wall.
Portfolio is at least 90% of the decision-making process for me. Education is 0% of the process.
2. Price. Assuming the work is what I like, can I afford them?  Can I really "afford" to go with someone "cheaper?" (Recognizing that "cheaper" might also mean lower-quality prints, less time spent on quality edits, etc)  If it's just, say, pictures of ME to give my mom, I'll probably go with cheaper. If it's a wedding photographer for my son (which I don't foresee a need for anytime soon!!), I'm going to get the very best I can possibly afford.
3. Personality/Attitude--Do I "click" with this person? Do I like the way they handle themselves? Do they seem confident and able to handle whatever a shoot might deal to them? Are they rude or arrogant? Do they seem like a pretty ethical person to me?
4. Contract. What are the terms of the contract?

My point is, there are a lot of things I might consider when hiring a photographer, but education isn't likely to be one of them. Therefore, I'd make the argument that it isn't all that important to have a degree IN photography.
I DO think it's good to educate yourself though--going beyond what you can learn on your own and participating in workshops, classes, seminars, etc.  are great ways to really increase your technical expertise or even find new areas of photography you might want to offer services in.

If I were going to get a degree, it would be in Business. Oh, look, I HAVE one of those!


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## KmH

elizpage said:


> I paid $400 for 11 shots and a 1.5 hour session with a photographer with 8 years of experience and a degree. I paid this amount because I respected her way of doing business and work.


Is this the photographer that didn't bother with a contract, a model release signed by you, made no effort to protect her copyrights, and supplied you with the Raw files?

None of that is good business.

If she is using images of people made in private in her portfolio to promote her 'business'. but has no written contract or valid model releases on file, I sure hope she has a good attorney on retainer.
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things
MORE Best Business Practices for Photographers
ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography




As mentioned, if you want to have a viable retail or commercial photography business a business/marketing (MBA) degree is likely more worth having than a MFA degree.


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## keyseddie

Vince.1551 said:


> Fine art degree majoring in photography is not just about photography. A lot has to do with understanding and appreciating fine art and the history as well. There isn't as much practical photography as one would have wished. However it provides a deeper understanding of how art is being defined.


Excellent advice. If you wish to be a photographic artist you need to have a solid foundation in art. However there are a lot of photographers out there who are not artists who make a good living in photography. There are also a ton of really talented artists that can't make a living because they don't know how to run a business.

I have two masters degrees. I purchased one for my daughter and one for my son. They were paid for with my cameras and my talent as an artist, as all else I own was purchased.
Like tirediron, I'm still learning. I did it by apprenticing with a top commercial guy and a top wedding guy. I got them coffee, loaded film, learned lighting ratios,rushed to the 4 hr lab with transparency film to process, cleaned their toilets and learned how to do the nuts and bolts of photography and learned the business aspects before there was even any thought about becoming an artist. Fast forward to now. Buy a camera on Monday and learn to make a watermark over the weekend. Now you have the word photography in your name and you're in business. If it was that easy everyone would be a photographer. Oh, wait...everyone is.

The school of hard knocks is the best one for learning the business and art of photography. Fortunately for the talented ones and not so fortunate for the wannabes is that your images themselves define your work, along with integrity, a strong work ethic and business acumen.


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## mmaria

What I have to say here isn't gonna help anyone, but I just needed to vent a bit. Thank you! 

I spent 17 years in school. It ruined everything good in me (not really everything but you get the point) I would never go to school related to photography. I cherish it and keep it away from everything that isn't enjoying in it. I have a luxury to do that. I don't do it for living, I do it for me.

For you... I guess, simple, I just don't see the need for doing it, but go for it if you'd like!


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## rexbobcat

I wouldn't get a Masters in Photography. You won't make anymore money if you do, and you won't learn any more about the craft than you could from assisting established photographers and practicing. And that option is a lot cheaper too.   

If you want to learn how to do photography you would probably be benefited more by undergraduate classes as well.

Otherwise you're just paying for someone in the graduate program to deem whether or not your thesis project is "art" enough for you to get a piece of paper.


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## weepete

If you want it go for it. It probably won't enhance your buisness directly but it may open some avenues and give you a different way of looking at things, or at least an ability to look at things in a different way if you want. 

Never in my life have I considered more information a bad thing.


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## Designer

The things people CAN learn in school often turns out to be NOT the things one assumed would be taught.

Learning art of any sort could be of value in the long run if you can apply it to the art of photography.  Without knowing the curriculum of a photography degree program, I cannot comment on the possibility that what you learn there will help you with a photography business.  Since photography is a combination of art and technical knowledge, then adding all that into creating a business means a multi-disciplinary approach.  If the college teaches a multi-diciplinary program, then it will probably be a good thing.


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## Rob99

I skimmed this thread but, I have a mfa in photography from scad. I teach at a post secondary level.

The one and only reason I can think of to have a graduate degree in photography is if you want to teach. Trust me, you don't want to teach ha.


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## Light Guru

The only reason to get a masters in photography is if you plan on teaching photography at a college level.


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## kundalini

> [h=2]Anyone here have a (higher level) degree in Photography?


[/h]Probably doesn't count, but yes, I do.


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## Bitter Jeweler

elizpage said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you're going to start a business, it would probably be wise to know how to business...
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point. Business degrees are very useful, not only for photography
Click to expand...


A business degree is useful so you can get a job when you don't make it as a photographer.
You should also minor in marketing, to make you more attractive to a future employer.


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## elizpage

tirediron said:


> elizpage said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have 30+ years of hands-on experience and have attended many seminars and workshops, and am always willing to learn. From anyone. A degree in photography?  Yeah... sure... okay. As soon as someone can explain to me how the final exam will be graded. Seriously... photography is an art. You can teach the mechanics of lighting, exposure, etc and you can teach compositional theory but at the end of the day, the results are purely subjective.
> 
> I would submit that the degree had little, or more likely nothing to do with your decision about which photographer to hire, and attitude and presentation did. If you want to spend money on a photographic education, then take business and entrepreneurship training, basic accounting & marketing and spend your evenings watching Creative Live and Adorama TV for information on the technical side of things.
> 
> As for dedication, well I suppose spending four years at school does show a certain type of dedication, but IMO, those four years could much better be spent learning and growing your business and gaining real world experience.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's awesome you are always willing to learn even though you have so much experience already. I clicked the link and took a look at some of your recent work and well.. there's just nothing about it that sets it apart (in my humble opinion of course) I think that's more important than the work being technically perfect. Since it says: _&#8203;Tell me what you think _I figured I would. I also think that it's very traditional, which is good for some people (probably the vast majority).
> 
> I guess I just proved your point then that the results will always be subjective  Some people love my work, and others think it's awful. I don't have a huge body of work yet, though. And I'm always willing to try new things. Let me know what you think of mine when you can. Don't be too harsh, but be honest of your opinion of course!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fair comment; I know that my biggest failing as a photographer is lack of creative 'vision', but I like to think that I provide my clients with what they want.  You have some nice work on your 'site, and while it's not necessarily to my taste I can appreciate it, but I suspect that my client base is probably significantly older than yours; for whatever reason, probably 3/4 of my retail clients are in the 65+ range, and the more traditional, studio-style seems to appeal to them.
Click to expand...


And mine are almost all under the age of 30 (with the exceptions of the 50th anniversary) so have a different demographic we are targeting. That's awesome you are able to do that. I bet you get a lot of business! I wish I had my own studio to work in. Do you have your own, or do you rent? What is the protocol for that sort of thing?


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## elizpage

Bitter Jeweler said:


> elizpage said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you're going to start a business, it would probably be wise to know how to business...
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point. Business degrees are very useful, not only for photography
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A business degree is useful so you can get a job when you don't make it as a photographer.
> You should also minor in marketing, to make you more attractive to a future employer.
Click to expand...


Who said I won't? Or did you mean "you" in a rhetorical sense? 

Right now, photography isn't my primary gig and I never intend for it to be unless I were to get a degree for it. I might be interested in teaching it at a university level though.


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## elizpage

Rob99 said:


> I skimmed this thread but, I have a mfa in photography from scad. I teach at a post secondary level.
> 
> The one and only reason I can think of to have a graduate degree in photography is if you want to teach. Trust me, you don't want to teach ha.


Why not? Is teaching not rewarding? 

I was considering the MFA program at SCAD. How was it?


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## tecboy

I don't want to be rude or anything else.  Based on your website, you already have a degree, and you will be teaching English in China for five months.  Stick with your goal and accomplish something.  When you earn some money, you can buy better gear like strobe lights and backdrop.  Forget about this photographer who has eight years experienced.  You get all the help you need from a lot of very talented and professional photographers in TPF.  You may end up far better than this photographer you mentioned in less than eight years.  It is up to you to continue your education, but there will be time you may not need a higher degree in photography.


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## Bitter Jeweler

elizpage said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elizpage said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point. Business degrees are very useful, not only for photography
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A business degree is useful so you can get a job when you don't make it as a photographer.
> You should also minor in marketing, to make you more attractive to a future employer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who said I won't? Or did you mean "you" in a rhetorical sense?
> 
> Right now, photography isn't my primary gig and I never intend for it to be unless I were to get a degree for it. I might be interested in teaching it at a university level though.
Click to expand...


Rhetorical!


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## 407370

All education teaches methods that stifle creativity but the really good photographers use the education as guidelines and not rules.

If you want to do the degree then go for it. Only time will tell if it proves to be the foundation you are looking for. 

Regretting doing something is bad but regretting not doing something is horrible.


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## Bitter Jeweler

407370 said:


> All education teaches methods that stifle creativity



*BS.*


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## studio460

As I see it, there are three types of degrees in photography, with three different goals: two-year, four-year, and MFA programs. Many two-year city college degrees, while more vocational in nature, offered a lot of bang for the buck back in the film days. The school I went to had a lot of equipment, a huge lab, and the program taught everything from color theory, sensitometry, to lighting and portraiture, plus entailed a fair amount of 4x5 view camera work. Four-year photography programs (e.g, Art Center, Brooks, RIT, etc.) are for those on a more professional career track.

I think an MFA is more of an exploration of art rather than craft, and is a hugely personal decision to determine if it's right for you. If I had nothing but time and money, I would probably really enjoy being in an MFA program just for the environment, and for the investment in my own personal growth. But at this point, my technical craft is pretty well honed, and I'm mostly concentrating on the brass-tacks necessities required to start a second career as a still photographer (where my primary career is shooting television). If you have the time, resources, and imagination (plus, some amount of discipline), I would probably tend to argue that you could design your own MFA-level "curriculum," and use the money that would've otherwise gone toward tuition, toward travel, gear, and books instead.


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## studio460

elizpage said:


> I am thinking of enrolling in an Art & Design school to get a MFA in Photography. I want to grow intellectually and artistically. In other words, this isn't just for financial reasons in growing my business. By the way, I got my Bachelor's recently in Mass Media Arts, which is related to Video Production and Telecommunications.


Ah, I didn't see that. This is also a "stage-of-life" question. You would respond differently depending on where you are in life. If you're younger, and only recently received your undergraduate degree, it may be a good fit for you to explore MFA programs which interest you (for, as you said, your intellectual and artistic growth). Such schools under this consideration may be different from the four-year schools I mentioned above (e.g., School of the Art Institute of Chicago, School of Visual Arts, etc.). Good art programs tend to include a design-oriented, course-load (2D design, typography, etc.) which is also very applicable to photography and its related applications. However, if you're at a later stage in life, and already have a career going, you may instead want to invest in designing your own "curriculum," as I mentioned previously.


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## Bobr267

Started when I was 14 and will very soon be 78.   Ran a photography business for umpteen years and have never had a days training in my life.   I think I have an eye for a good picture though and that helps.


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## Rob99

elizpage said:


> Why not? Is teaching not rewarding?
> 
> I was considering the MFA program at SCAD. How was it?


No, it is, well it can be. It's really what you make of it. I do love my job. That was more of a joke. I couldn't imagine teaching at a highschool level though. 

Scad is great, I really enjoyed my time there. If you have any specific questions feel free to pm me anytime. 



407370 said:


> All education teaches methods that stifle creativity



This is not true at all.


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## tirediron

elizpage said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elizpage said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's awesome you are always willing to learn even though you have so much experience already. I clicked the link and took a look at some of your recent work and well.. there's just nothing about it that sets it apart (in my humble opinion of course) I think that's more important than the work being technically perfect. Since it says: _&#8203;Tell me what you think _I figured I would. I also think that it's very traditional, which is good for some people (probably the vast majority).
> 
> I guess I just proved your point then that the results will always be subjective  Some people love my work, and others think it's awful. I don't have a huge body of work yet, though. And I'm always willing to try new things. Let me know what you think of mine when you can. Don't be too harsh, but be honest of your opinion of course!
> 
> 
> 
> Fair comment; I know that my biggest failing as a photographer is lack of creative 'vision', but I like to think that I provide my clients with what they want. You have some nice work on your 'site, and while it's not necessarily to my taste I can appreciate it, but I suspect that my client base is probably significantly older than yours; for whatever reason, probably 3/4 of my retail clients are in the 65+ range, and the more traditional, studio-style seems to appeal to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And mine are almost all under the age of 30 (with the exceptions of the 50th anniversary) so have a different demographic we are targeting. That's awesome you are able to do that. I bet you get a lot of business! I wish I had my own studio to work in. Do you have your own, or do you rent? What is the protocol for that sort of thing?
Click to expand...

I have a sub-lease arrangement with a local dance studio which provides me a 15x40x14 room, recpetion area, change-room, and washroom, fully supplied, for $20/hour.  Check around on your local Craig's List and Yellow Pages - there are usually studio shares available.


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## astroNikon

I thought the only degree needed was a receipt from BestBuy for their new $199 camera, and a $4.99 UV filter.   :mrgreen:


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## Vince.1551

In conclusion, it's not a bad thing to go for the second degree. However it doesn't guarantee success in your photography career.


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## 407370

Bitter Jeweler said:


> 407370 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All education teaches methods that stifle creativity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BS.*
Click to expand...


I beg to differ.

I have hired graphic designers and software developers / coders straight out of university with qualifications up the wazoo and pretty much without exception they are robots taught to use processes that are useless in the real world of business. They lacked the imagination to creatively solve a problem. They learned more real world knowledge in 6 months working for my team and some of them have gone on to do very well for themselves.

I firmly believe that any form of formal education in a creative subject teaches mechanics and nothing else. The creative part is intrinsic in the person and nothing to do with years at university


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## rexbobcat

Bitter Jeweler said:


> 407370 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All education teaches methods that stifle creativity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BS.*
Click to expand...


Not entirely BS. I don't agree that ALL education does this, but in some instances it can, especially when the education is focused on what not to do instead of what is possible.

But this is coming from someone with a University Studies degree who is somewhat jaded with higher level education so....whatever... :greenpbl:


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## Browncoat

I'm a photography school dropout. I was in an accredited IT program and one day I had an epiphany: did I really want to spend my career trapped in a cubicle all day? No. So I transferred to an art school and majored in photography. About a year into this new program, I had another epiphany: why am I paying for this crap when so much of it is free? So I quit.

Unless you plan on working for a fashion studio or something, there's no point to a photography degree in my opinion. There's so much you can gain for free online and through workshops that are far cheaper than paying for an education. If you want to go into business for yourself, you'd be much better served by taking business classes.


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## Vince.1551

No one needs to go to school anymore? Just get educated from the internet and get a google degree  ...


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## SoulfulRecover

I am currently enrolled at the Art Institute of Austin and it has taught me a lot and I am glad I went back to school. I started off at Colorado State University in Pueblo working on gen ed and eventually went into their art department. They did not have a photography program, just a few classes on the basics. I eventually transferred to Austin then dropped out after 3 quarters or so. I realized I hate my job (after being out of school for 4 years), my photography wasnt improving, so I pushed myself back into school over a year ago. Ive grown a lot from it and from learning here. Because I work full time I can only take 2 classes a semester (and thats basically all my financial aid will cover) it would take me 5-6 years before I completed the remaining two years of schooling. Not worth it to me. So I will take the classes I feel I need and when I am ready, drop out and push myself in the photographic field. Staying in the school that long is a waste of my time and money. I have some education (and glad I do) but I would rather have the real world experience.


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## JacaRanda

When the word 'all' is used, the letters 'BS' are appropriate. IMHO


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## vintagesnaps

The university near me where I've taken coursework in my field (education/child development) and where I've taken a few grad level art workshops has photography as one if its few mandatory dual majors (with a recommendation of business as the second major) - obviously so students will come out of school able to find a job.

I tend to think it can be beneficial to get some further training or education but I don't know how much it would be of benefit in photography. For me it's been a sideline doing some sports and events, and more recently fine art photography; I've always taken workshops and took art as electives but I don't think photographers have typically had degrees unless maybe they were working photojournalists. 

I would think it would help to talk to someone at a school about what some options would be. I don't know if there would be opportunities to teach photography at college level or not but that seems specific and probably limiting compared to an art or other degree that would include areas of expertise besides just photography.


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## imagemaker46

I have 45 years of experience with a camera. I didn't finish high school, wasn't really too interested in what I was being taught.  Taking courses in photography is great, will it get you a job as a photographer at the end, these days, who knows, but it does get you knowledge and an advantage over someone that is trying to learn on their own.

The best thing about a degree in photography these days is, that in a frame, it can be hung on the wall to cover up a hole, other than that, it's just a piece of paper in a frame.


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## runnah

imagemaker46 said:


> I have 45 years of experience with a camera. I didn't finish high school, wasn't really too interested in what I was being taught.  Taking courses in photography is great, will it get you a job as a photographer at the end, these days, who knows, but it does get you knowledge and an advantage over someone that is trying to learn on their own.  The best thing about a degree in photography these days is, that in a frame, it can be hung on the wall to cover up a hole, other than that, it's just a piece of paper in a frame.



As are most degrees. I don't even know where mine are!

The thing about tech type degrees is that they are outdated so fast! When I went to college we still had to use a linear editor! Things like HD video, recording to SD cards and picture cameras that shoot video were considered impossible. Granted college was a great time and I met lots of fun people but for my degree I could have taken or leaven it.


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## The_Traveler

Dennis Dunleavy - California Agency Alleges Brooks Institute of Photography "Willfully" Misled Students


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## e.rose

elizpage said:


> Personally, even as a new photographer, I feel skeptical about hiring a photographer who is "self-taught" because it could really mean anything (unless their work is exemplary) It shows a lot of dedication and perserverence to actually pursue a degree in your craft.



This is silly.

In like... 1 Million and one ways.

Is a formal education BAD? No.

Is it NECESSARY? Absolutely not.

I went to school for music recording technology (another art, is my point...) and I graduated and got my degree. Not only was I only a mediocre engineer, because I didn't spend as much time in the studio, practicing my craft, as I did hanging out at my friend's house and chillin' with my boyfriend when he was in town... I ended up deciding against doing anything with my degree.

Then there's our friend Kyle... who Keith has known since 6th grade.

That guy bought some cheap gear, and in middle school started to teach himself music recording. And then as he got older, he invested more and continued to learn.

He didn't go to college... as a matter of fact, he dropped out of high school.

He's working as a recording engineer.

I'm not.

I've never taken a formal photography course a day in my life. Do I still have improvements to make? Sure. I'll never feel like I don't, and I'll never stop learning, but I'm better than half the people I know that took *any* sort of class in photography and some that even have a degree.

My best friend here is an EXCELLENT photographer.

His degree is in Graphic Design. He's a self-taught photographer, with only one "photography 101" class that was required for his design degree under his belt.

90% of the photographers that I know that are great at what they do and working, are self-taught.

If am am not mistaken, one of the celebrity-status, big name, commercial photographers here in town does not have a photography degree.

Actually let me go check... ::goes to website::

FOUND IT! Here you go:

About | Jeremy Cowart

That little piece of paper means jack sh*t when it comes to the arts.

Can you do it, or can't you? That's all that matters.

You're still complaining [EDIT: Just saw when this was posted, so you're not "still" complaining, haha] about paying $400 for photos, but your problem isn't whether or not that woman had a degree.

We talked about it last night. I told you that the work she gave you was 100% reminiscent of the work on her site. Her site is poorly designed (I actually had to zoom out in my browser just to be able to see the full photos without heads cut off on her site), and it's evident that she gave her portfolio zero thought when putting it together.

You said she has a degree.

How did you feel about her work?

Not great, eh?

You shouldn't be scouring people's bios for evidence of a degree. 

You should be scouring their portfolio for evidence of photographic capability.

That's what you're putting your money into... the result. Not the slice of dead tree they may or may not have their name inked onto.


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## tecboy

So, op made a poor decision.  It happens to everyone.  Just give it a rest.


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## Karloz

Hi

I have in the study of Photography for three years  - I am in the last year of this study - Degree in visual arts.

I started the study as felt as though I could not do the photography I wanted after one year study - I worked as part time pro for 18 months- was good and did some good work .

I now feel a lot more confident of my skills and have become quite artistic and this is good for me and my work.

Next year I will be back to making the money for weddings and stuff and being fine art photographer also. I think its the attitude I apply to the customer and the work and provide a good service as that is what the customer will expect. 

Also need the good gear and hot spare camera etc.

And ENJOY your work and that takes care of most things !

Take Care


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## imagemaker46

I read this today.   "Hard work beats talent, but when talent works hard, game over"


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## tecboy

I'm getting a certificate of completion in photography in community college.  I don't want one, but the college makes me get one.


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## CAP

Well i recommend getting PPA Certified AKA "Professional Photographers of America Certified"

I got mine a couple of years ago and it counts for allot and most other professional photographers i know have been PPA certified. 

I have my B.A Information Systems. "University Of Florida"

But i also took plenty of elective courses in Journalism and Modern Art wile i was working on my degree at UF and those classes gave me a wealth of insight and knowledge that i have today.


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## Didereaux

elizpage said:


> This isn't meant to be a biting comment, I am just legitimately curious on who has an education.
> 
> 
> Personally, even as a new photographer, I feel skeptical about hiring a photographer who is "self-taught" because it could really mean anything (unless their work is exemplary) It shows a lot of dedication and perserverence to actually pursue a degree in your craft.
> 
> I paid $400 for 11 shots and a 1.5 hour session with a photographer with 8 years of experience and a degree. I paid this amount because I respected her way of doing business and work. She had a smart way of presenting her portfolio as well.
> 
> 
> How would an education benefit me? What do you guys think?



You said: "It shows a lot of dedication and perserverence(sic) to actually pursue a degree in your craft." 
It takes a helluva a lot more perseverance and dedication to achieve mastery of a craft.  If that were not so then ALL college grads would be fully functional journeyman levels when they graduated...that does not happen.

So you liked the portfolio, but apparently had the photographer been 'self taught' you would not have hired them?  

You are not ready....continue your life in the ivory towers, in fact I suggest that perhaps that would be your ideal career path...academia.


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## agrojim

While it's far from some fancy college degree, this topic isn't makes me think about what is going on in my house. 

My wife and I started taking our photography seriously fairly recently.
My wife is currently doing an $800+ online course which seems like it is pretty decent. 
However I am concurrently teaching myself by smashing forums, google, youtube, magazines and books and introducing myself to photographers that I meet at events.

The result? Well I am consistently helping my wife understand the contents of her course. I have a better understanding of photography compared to what she has learned in the same amount of time.
Some of this may well be my geeky nature lol, but I put it to real world learning and the fact I have spent more time taking photos and less time reading about it in a course.
To me education is very important to help discover methods and techniques that will help turn your imagination into a creation. However going to school is definitely not the only, or most effective place to learn.
I would rather put my trust in a photographer with experience over a formal education.


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## chuasam

Browncoat said:


> I'm a photography school dropout. I was in an accredited IT program and one day I had an epiphany: did I really want to spend my career trapped in a cubicle all day? No. So I transferred to an art school and majored in photography. About a year into this new program, I had another epiphany: why am I paying for this crap when so much of it is free? So I quit.
> 
> Unless you plan on working for a fashion studio or something, there's no point to a photography degree in my opinion. There's so much you can gain for free online and through workshops that are far cheaper than paying for an education. If you want to go into business for yourself, you'd be much better served by taking business classes.



You gain valuable network and contacts through attending a good photography school. The school I attended was taught by real high level working pros. I have had paid jobs come my way from knowing the right people.


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## chuasam

imagemaker46 said:


> I read this today.   "Hard work beats talent, but when talent works hard, game over"



Talent is an excuse other people give when they don't want to work as hard.


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