# Question on proofs



## Mandra (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi all!
How do you handle clients who want to see all the photos from their shoot?

We did a shoot last week for a large family and have put up 35 proofs from the 1.5 hour shoot. The mom is asking me why there's only 35... I'm assuming she's had experiences with photographers who have shown all photos taken, but we like to show only the "cream of the crop", fully processed and ready for printing.

Obviously, we had more than 35 that came out, but many were of the same pose or others were just better. I'm happy with what we've shown, but I don't know how to nicely tell her we only show the best proofs, not everything that was taken. I don't want to give her the impression these were the only ones that turned out and I certainly don't want to sound prissy. How do you handle this question?

Thanks in advance for your ideas!


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## Big Mike (Sep 28, 2009)

I just tell them that these were the best photos from each pose or grouping and that most of the others were either virtual copies or had someone making a face/bad expression.

Some photographers will even tell the clients that the non-keepers get deleted (even if they don't).  Hopefully this relieves the curiosity that the client has, to see all the images.  

I haven't had to try this out...but one option would be to choose one of the non-keepers where the client is making a silly face and show them that image, telling them that all the cuts looked like that.


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## KmH (Sep 28, 2009)

I go a step further. It's written right into my contract. They only see 20-25 images for each hour of shooting, selected at my sole discretion.

Many of the images I make during a 1 hour shoot are experimental. Not all experiments are sucessful.

The other consideration is clients can get overwhelmed if they have to many images to choose from.

I recommend you add a clause or two to your contract.


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## Mandra (Sep 28, 2009)

Thanks for the responses - I really appreciate it!  

I've added a *to-do* for the contract and now need to email the client.  sigh...


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## Mandra (Sep 28, 2009)

Update... So I emailed the original woman (yet to hear back) but have since received this email from another part of this family shoot:

Thanks for taking the time to photograph our family and I know with kids and such it is not always easy to get everyone looking at the camera, but in the same respect, didn't you take a lot of photos? I was hoping to see them all, and choose! I was very disappointed in the selection with our little family the xxxx's. I realize that there is a lot of time that went into this and would like to see all that time! I think of my wedding and the photographer let us preview them on the internet, all the photos, good and bad, and gave us a HUGE selection. Same with any photographer I have ever worked with, and with my son, it is really important that you feel when you see those photos endless possibilities and memories of that day. I am hoping to see them all, and maybe I would like one that you didn't? I am respecting your opinion of your choice selection but I feel like maybe the xxxx's opinion is important too... please if you can give us a better selection? 

ARGH!!! Are all clients this crazy or did we just get lucky? Ideas on how to respond? I figure we either stick to our guns or we give in and show all pictures. (Side note: we had a pre-shoot meeting, setting the parameters of what could be expected but it was only with 1 of 4 families in the shoot. This is a sucky situation...)


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## FrankLamont (Sep 28, 2009)

Pick 5 more. Then say that a wedding is longer and has many more people in it.


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## Mandra (Sep 28, 2009)

FriedChicken said:


> Pick 5 more.


 
Pretty much what we did.  We'll see.....


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## craig (Sep 29, 2009)

I shoot mostly model portfolios, so the situation is the same but different.

My clients see almost all of the photos unedited in a gallery about 2 hours after the shoot. Yeah; I can immediately pick out the best 15 or whatever, but I feel that the client is paying a lot of money and should see the work that we produced. Also I believe the client should have a say in the editing process. It is there money and I want them to be perfectly happy. Who is a better judge? Probably me, but in the instance of shooting models they know when flab is being hidden or posture is not perfect or not.

My work is very much a collaboration from both sides of the lens. I would never limit my client to only a select view of the photos.

Love & Bass


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## Photochick (Sep 30, 2009)

This family must be crazy!!  You have shown them enough.  Why on earth would they want to see the edits!?!  Watch out, this is the type of customer that will also want something for nothing or a better "deal" on the price.  Good luck.


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## craig (Sep 30, 2009)

Photochick said:


> This family must be crazy!!  You have shown them enough.  Why on earth would they want to see the edits!?!  Watch out, this is the type of customer that will also want something for nothing or a better "deal" on the price.  Good luck.



There is a fine line here. That line is outstanding customer vs losing profits. 

For example you should be able to proudly post every frame from the shoot in a matter of hours if not minutes. That means straight from camera to website. This is why it is essential to have the tech down in camera as opposed to post. After the photographer and the client have picked the best images that is when the final edits take place.

Now when the client is on the phone every day wasting your time with silly questions or demanding costly reshoots; that is when profits fall. At that point do your best to explain your position and quickly come up with a solution that will work for everyone involved.

Love & Bass


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## misol (Oct 1, 2009)

I explain this ahead of time and it will be in my contract when ever I manage to get it written up.  Yep Im a slacker.  BUt they know they get a minimum of 20 and its up to me.  I think its really smart to do that.  First you would have to edit for a billion hours (I dont show unedited).  Second it does take away the magic.

You can explain that you pick the best out and edit them and offer them.  If tehre was something specific that she wanted to see, to please let you know and you will look through the outtakes and see if you can find something like that.  

But since it wasnt in a contract and you didnt discuss it ahead of time, maybe you could shot show her and take it as a learning expirence.  I dont even offer it!  I just think showing 4 of the same photo take away the impact.  And I want to chose what I put my name on.  So I think you are right on there.


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## misol (Oct 1, 2009)

craig said:


> Photochick said:
> 
> 
> > This family must be crazy!!  You have shown them enough.  Why on earth would they want to see the edits!?!  Watch out, this is the type of customer that will also want something for nothing or a better "deal" on the price.  Good luck.
> ...



I cant imagine why you would ever show photos that werent edited and polished.  Where is the magic?  You might as well just be target or walmart photo studio.  I guess for my business, a big part of what I do is provide polished portraits.  Sure the photo might look ok out of the box, but by no means is it the quality I show my client


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## astrostu (Oct 1, 2009)

Definitely something to think about saying explicitly to the client before-hand as well as in your contract next time.  I think I actually put it in my wedding contract, and I told both the B&G that though I would likely take several hundred photos (actually took 2100 of their Hindu ceremony), they would probably only see around 100-200 of the best as the proofs.

As to how to handle the situation now, I agree with what Big Mike said.  Basically, very quickly explain that almost all the shots not shown were either exact duplicates or had people blinking.  Pick the absolute worst and show them that as an example representative of the rest.

If they press you, you should be able to point to your contract where it (likely? hopefully?) gives no guarantee of the number of photos they have to proof.

I also disagree with Craig for once and would personally never show unedited photos to the client except under very special circumstances.


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## Mandra (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I see this is a polarized topic, even with photographers! 

The situation we're in is difficult because there are 4 separate families but we were technically hired to shoot the entire group - we shot the individual families as a courtesy. We had a pre-shoot meeting with what we thought were our main clients (only 1 of the families) to explain what they could expect which includes the amount of proofs received after a shoot. We didn't have this specifically spelled out in the contract at the time, but we did have it on the website. This information was not discussed with the rest of the people at the shoot and they are the ones with all the issues. 



astrostu said:


> I also disagree with Craig for once and would personally never show unedited photos to the client except under very special circumstances.


 
This is our stance as well. We care very much about the quality of what we show and never want to show unedited proofs. I agree with misol that some of the "magic" is gone if you show them straight out of the camera. I also think it's completely overwhelming to show 400 photos from a 1 hour shoot. (Weddings would be the exception, but we don't do weddings.) Of course, that's a business decision and clients should know your stance before any photos are taken.

The way we typically like to work portrait sessions is to just enjoy time with the family and capture their happy, relaxed moments. We didn't have that opportunity at this shoot as we shot 4 individual families plus multiple group configurations in 1.5 hours. That doesn't leave much time for anything... I do feel we captured the group shot, which was the whole point to the shoot.

I sent a professional, heartfelt email explaining our business process (which was discussed with the original clients) and an apology for any miscommunication and offered up a compromise of the rest of the "maybe" proofs. Those have been posted for 2 days and we haven't heard anything. We're not expecting any orders from this shoot, so if we do get some that's great. What we DO have now is a 2 page contract explicitly spelling out what we expect and what they expect. We were trying to avoid the pages of "legalese" but live and learn I guess... 

One interesting development - the original family we met with has hired us to do a baby shoot for them tonight. I guess they liked our work at any rate!

Thanks again for the support and vigorous discussion. I really hope someone else can learn from our experience...


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## craig (Oct 2, 2009)

Excellent discussion for sure. I think I can see where you guys are coming from. 

I neglected to mention that I am not a retail shooter. My clients are basically art directors and models. Reviewing images for my clients and I is a process that is very well understood. The polished image and wow factor are very calculated. 

The retail field does need instant gratification and you get extra credit for immediately providing that. None the less consider my train of thought as a more economical and user friendly approach.

Love & Bass


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## rhondag (Oct 2, 2009)

Straight out of camera shots are not always suitable for showing as proofs...You are the photographer...you present to the family what you are proud of.  If they don't like it...they can go elsewhere next time!


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## athomasimage (Oct 7, 2009)

When I shoot family portraits - After the sitting, I run all the images through as a slide show for the client to see.  I tell them the idea is to see the rough results and make sure we've not missed anything.  

I've had times when after the review, I wanted to try something different or another pose.  The review also gives me a chance to indicate files they won't see like the out of focus, closed eyes or other misses.  

When the proofs are posted on their web page, they know what to expect and there are no surprises.  I also advise them that proofs are simply that - proofs, not finished product.  Then I talk about what work is performed to prepare files for final prints showing the value of a pro studio.  Hope this helps??


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## msf (Oct 8, 2009)

craig said:


> Excellent discussion for sure. I think I can see where you guys are coming from.
> 
> I neglected to mention that I am not a retail shooter. My clients are basically art directors and models. Reviewing images for my clients and I is a process that is very well understood. The polished image and wow factor are very calculated.
> 
> ...



Showing the client the pictures right away can save time and money though.

You dont have to schedule a time to show them the pictures in person, and you get to skip the online proofs which is good because its easier to get extra sales when your with them helping them decide.  And you may have to wait a while for them to get the time to check the proofs and place the order, so the turnaround is faster.

You only process the images that were purchased and any others you think are worth processing incase they decide to purcahse that one.

Just a couple thoughts.


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## Mandra (Oct 8, 2009)

Once again, thanks to all for your opinions and information on your processes. It's so interesting to see how many different ways there are to handle the proofing process!

We recently did another shoot with our new contract and streamlined proof process and the results have been promising. Of course it went smoother when everyone knew what to expect!

As an update, the original group is starting to place their orders and we're looking at a pretty good profit, so that's a relief. The "crazy customer" who wanted all the proofs was happy with our compromise of additional proofs and a sincere apology for the miscommunication.  We'll see...

Thanks again for all your support and ideas.  It's so nice to be able to collaborate with others in similar situations.


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## burstintoflame81 (Oct 11, 2009)

Here is what I would do as a compromise and to try to both retain customer service and at the same time keep your integrity. First, add a clause to your contract ( but thats a given ). 

Next, I would explain your stance on how you only show the most professional pictures and not the out-takes. Plus the amount of time it would take to edit every outtake would really not be efficient if they wanted to recieve their good pictures in a timely fashion. However, since you did not cover your bases before hand, I think for customer service reasons, you should be flexible and take this as a learning experience. I would tell them that if they wished to see the outtakes, they would need to make an appointment in person to sit down and see them. That way there is not printed or digital copies or poor work with your name on it floating around from family to family. If you explain that you do not want subpar work being circulated in your name, then perhaps they will understand needing to come in to see them. Also, the inconvenience of that might deter them from ever coming to see them. When you tell them this though, maybe pic the most terrible outtake that is clearly not just sloppy photography but closed eyes, over exposed, etc. etc. and send just that one pic as an example of what you are meaning. 

I would also delete any good pics that are just duplicate poses, so that they do not see those in your group of outtakes and ask you to edit those not realizing that they are near duplicates. 

If you spin this correctly, you can reference your website statements and the pre-shoot meetings and tell them your stance, but then make the solution look like you are really giving them special treatment. You could turn this into them walking away and saying, "WOW I really felt like I got good personal service there " Not only because you are bending your own rules a little, but once they see the terrible outtakes they will see that you are honest and trustworthy and have their best interests at heart, not just your bottom line. ( even if that is sometimes total BS. )

Thats just how I would handle it. I mean, clearly these people were expecting something else. As much as you hate to admit it, it was your goof on the contract, so you should have to dig your way out of it. I think this would be the best way to handle things.


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## burstintoflame81 (Oct 11, 2009)

I guess I should have read first that the problem is over with. Oh well.


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## Mandra (Oct 12, 2009)

burstintoflame81 said:


> I guess I should have read first that the problem is over with. Oh well.



lol....  No big deal.  Other people will read this and learn from our mistakes.

Update:
The "crazy lady" who wrote the email was apparently so impressed with our quick responses, honesty, and compromises, she's asked for business cards to give to her friends.  Hopefully it's not as a "watch out for these people"!  

We're fulfilling orders now and will then be running solely under our new contract - can't wait.  Thanks again for all the advice and discussion!


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