# am i wrong?



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

some opinions needed.


my oldest gets a ipad 4 from school. In return i pay 25 dollars a year and have to sign a contract. i have done this two years in a row. I dont even have a cellphone contract i pay for cards when i want one but signed this for my kid to have a ipad to bring home (it is the new thing i guess they bring home homework etc on it).
The contract stipulates the first time it breaks the parent is responsible for 50 dollars. second time the replacement or repair costs.
kid broke it. no problem. pay the 50.
But the way i think about it, if my kid breaks another one i eat the cost of the ipad.
on top of the 25 dollars a year. Plus my kid isn't allowed to take it home for the summer.

so doing the math. i figured i would just pay the fifty to the school for the one my kid broke. And forget the contract just buy my kid a ipad (made more sense to me, sorta in the long run)

so i bought a couple ipad 4's. one for me and the wife to play with, one for my kid to replace the one my kid was nolonger getting from school.  Like i said, it made sense.

But the school now says she isn't allowed to use the one i bought her, as no outside electronic devices are allowed. They block the one from the school they issue. Apparently, i have no choice BUT to sign the contract. which i am kind of annoyed over especially since now i bought her a ipad instead of going with the school issue one.

i didnt want the contract though, if my kid broke it again, i would be out the cost of the ipad (might as well just buy her one) plus paying the yearly fee plus my kid couldnt take it home in the summer. i just didnt see the point of it. They charge FULL replacement cost too. Not like bay price even if it is beat to crap..

oh, i guess supposedly i dont "have" to have the contract. Just my kid doesnt get a school ipad. which is what they do work on. my kid is honor roll. I dont want to screw up the education here. If i dont have the school contract, and they wont let the home ipad go to school, i am pretty positive it will effect the grades. I think they are wrong. i think she should be able to use the ipad i bought her.  just like if i buy her school supplies, a calculator, sport stuff school related. But the policy is she isn't allowed to. No electronic devices and she isn't allowed to use if for school or in school. That i basically have to go with the school contract and school issue one.


----------



## Gary A. (Apr 5, 2015)

My immediate response, when reading the title is Yes!, regardless of following text.

But I read the following text anyway and here is my take. You are at least partially responsible for buying your kid an iPad for school without knowing the electronic device policy (the school may be equally responsible if they did not publish the policy or make it easily available ... but I suspect the policy may have been incorporated into the paperwork for the contract).

My take is twofold ... 1) the kid needs it for school and not having one will be detrimental and make it harder to attain Honor Roll. 2) The kid may be stigmatized and ridiculed as the kid without the iPad. This may/will be a continuous and daily cloud over your child. So don't make your fight, the kid's fight ... the kid really doesn't have a dog in this fight.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 5, 2015)

This is idiotic.  First and foremost, no one NEEDS an iPad for school.  I'm sure it's cool, and and I'm sure it's fun, but it's not a need.  "No outside electronics" in a school?????   WHAT?  Every child in that school has a mechanical watch?  It's not the CIA or a military HQ, it's a SCHOOL!!!!!!!  I'm pretty sure there are no national secrets at risk.  

What if you couldn't afford $25/month?  It's great that you can, but I'm sure there are those for whom that additional bill would constitute a significant, and unnecessary hardship.  I would absolutely refuse to agree to something like that; it's nothing more than a cash-grab and yet another case of the 'Good ideas' club imparting their will on others.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

Gary A. said:


> My immediate response, when reading the title is Yes!, regardless of following text.
> 
> But I read the following text anyway and here is my take. You are at least partially responsible for buying your kid an iPad for school without knowing the electronic device policy (the school may be equally responsible if they did not publish the policy or make it easily available ... but I suspect the policy may have been incorporated into the paperwork for the contract).
> 
> My take is twofold ... 1) the kid needs it for school and not having one will be detrimental and make it harder to attain Honor Roll. 2) The kid may be stigmatized and ridiculed as the kid without the iPad. This may/will be a continuous and daily cloud over your child. So don't make your fight, the kid's fight ... the kid really doesn't have a dog in this fight.


it isn't in the contract. The contract is for the school issued one and just the yearly fee and replacement costs etc.. It doesn't say you CAN'T just get your own. Apparently doing so violates the school electronic policy somehow. I hear ya though. Just smells like communism to me. sniff sniff.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

tirediron said:


> This is idiotic.  First and foremost, no one NEEDS an iPad for school.  I'm sure it's cool, and and I'm sure it's fun, but it's not a need.  "No outside electronics" in a school?????   WHAT?  Every child in that school has a mechanical watch?  It's not the CIA or a military HQ, it's a SCHOOL!!!!!!!  I'm pretty sure there are no national secrets at risk.
> 
> What if you couldn't afford $25/month?  It's great that you can, but I'm sure there are those for whom that additional bill would constitute a significant, and unnecessary hardship.  I would absolutely refuse to agree to something like that; it's nothing more than a cash-grab and yet another case of the 'Good ideas' club imparting their will on others.


I believe with the parents that have less money they are somehow providing waivers to paying for them. I am not totally sure though. But it doesn't make me feel better thinking about it. It just means i might be paying when other parents aren't. But in a way, it is weird. I bought her ipad with the case and a keyboard to go with it off ebay (32 gig instead of 16) with a screen protector cheaper than the school replacement cost listed in the contract. Granted, i bought it refurbished. But the one from the school was used to start with and only came with a cheap case.


----------



## Gary A. (Apr 5, 2015)

Granted, under your scenario, life isn't fair ... but the school is holding all the cards ... just file this under "Picking Fights You Can Win" ... or ... "Picking Fights Worth Fighting". 

I know a few people ... stupid people ... who look at every act as personal and winning/losing. They mindlessly argue everything, without listening, just so they 'win'. The 'universe' isn't against you ... the 'universe' doesn't gives a rat's about you, or anyone else for that matter. Again, just file this away as a lesson learned and move on, a bit wiser for the next time you're dealing with a government agency.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 5, 2015)

Gary A. said:


> Granted, under your scenario, life isn't fair ... but the school is holding all the cards ... just file this under "Picking Fights You Can Win" ... or ... "Picking Fights Worth Fighting".
> 
> I know a few people ... stupid people ... who look at every act as personal and winning/losing. They mindlessly argue everything, without listening, just so they 'win'. The 'universe' isn't against you ... the 'universe' doesn't gives a rat's about you, or anyone else for that matter. Again, just file this away as a lesson learned and move on, a bit wiser for the next time you're dealing with a government agency.


I think the point being overlooked here Gary is that schools, teachers, and the administration staff are public SERVANTS.  It is not their job to dictate idiotic rules, but rather to provide an appropriate education for the children in their charge, and while this might be a difficult fight to win, it is one that I absolutely would take on.  In fact I would very likely remove my child from that school were I in Brib's situation.  

It's all well and good to say, "Pick your fights", but the downside of that is that when bad decisions go unchallenged, they become acceptable, and when there's no push-back from the public, organizations such as this begin to feel that they can do whatever they want, regardless of whether or not there is any benefit to it.


----------



## limr (Apr 5, 2015)

Yes.

Oh wait, what was the question? I only got as far as the thread title.


----------



## otherprof (Apr 5, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > My immediate response, when reading the title is Yes!, regardless of following text.
> ...


It doesn't smell like communism to me. Smells more like capitalism! The school made a deal to purchase the iPads for every student. What was the benefit to the school in that deal? Where there any quid pro quo arrangements, or under-the-table kickbacks? Who is losing money if you buy your kid an iPad and do not go for the seemingly outrageous contract the school imposes on you? I think the policy is about money, not security. Does the superintendent have to pay for a wedding any time soon?


----------



## Ysarex (Apr 5, 2015)

Public school or private school?

Joe


----------



## pgriz (Apr 5, 2015)

I'd ask what's on the school-supplied iPad that isn't on yours.  There may be some proprietary stuff on theirs that allows them secure access.


----------



## fjrabon (Apr 5, 2015)

You're "right" but it's also a relatively hopeless battle.  What is right or wrong is a relatively pointless battle here, you just have to figure out if it's worth it for you to fight it. 

What are your options? What is the best option for you?

Also as someone else asked, public or private school?


----------



## Overread (Apr 5, 2015)

Generally speaking Schools look to earn money where they can and they likely earn from this setup. Thus they don't want to encourage parents to buy their own iPads for their kids because suddenly the school loses out on the income they get. 

The higher-ups in charge might also be technically illiterate and thus things like propitiatory software licences and custom options (which might be as simple as simply enabling default parental restrictions on the pad from its built-in menus) might simply boggle their minds. Ergo "their" iPads are "safe" and "special" whilst yours can't possibly be. 


You might have luck if:
1) You talk to whoever is in charge of IT at your school - they will likely know the ins-and-outs and might even know a back-door way to get on the system (eg they just add your iPad to the system no questions asked-  no one is harmed and the higher ups don't get panicked; or they just talk to the higher-ups to ok the situation). 

2) You offer to pay the school the $25 anyway (its only one cost per year) and have the install their magical special software etc. You then only lose out if your kid breaks it. 


I agree that if the school is making heavy use of them as a feature then not having one might leave your kid at a disadvantage - although I would think more digital distributed material must be available online. Indeed I can't see what real benefit an iPad has over a laptop save that it is cheaper and likely allows the school to ban kids bringing in their own.


----------



## DarkShadow (Apr 5, 2015)

Well what happens if they decided to go with MacBooks that are in the upper range of a grand and more.Force the parents to sign a contract for a $1500 computer that may become a paper weight after a kid drops it on the bus or it gets stolen  out of his or her backpack.Screw that,I would fight that contract. It is the parents fight since the parents eat the cost of it. I have three kids in public schools and they bring home work home the old way,on paper. Some home work may require use of a computer on occasions but nothing a modern day local library can't handle the task. In my neck of the woods a lot family's are in hardship and have a hard enough time paying for school supplies,uniforms,field trips etc etc.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> Public school or private school?
> 
> Joe


sorry, public.


----------



## Gary A. (Apr 5, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > Granted, under your scenario, life isn't fair ... but the school is holding all the cards ... just file this under "Picking Fights You Can Win" ... or ... "Picking Fights Worth Fighting".
> ...


If you're gonna fight, the appropriate arena for the fight is with the elected officials and elected officials will be more sensitive to the minds of the electorate.

The future for education is the computer. The tablet is the cheapest path to get a computer in the hands of all students. Brian, I can see fault in school's implementation of this policy. But if you are passionate about this issue than fight at the school board ... meanwhile don't make school tougher for your honor roll kid. So, follow the school's policy but fight it at the school board level.

@ tireiron-  You would remove your child from a school that the child is doing well, (Honor Roll), a school where all his/her friends are at, a school that is most likely local and convenient because you unilaterally purchased an iPad for school not knowing or attempting to know the school's policy on said school purchase. 

Having nearly a lifetime of experience with government and politics, my opinion is that you cannot fight every bad decision. You have to pick and choose ... the reason this policy didn't sit well with Brian is because he unilaterally purchased iPads, not knowing the schools policy. If he hadn't shelled out the bucks and instead accepted the $25 per month as being reasonable, (as possible most/the majority of the other parents), then we probably wouldn't be here. For me, there are more meaningful fights to jump into ... not a fight based upon a personal financial expense/loss. I do not see an issue of government exploitation and draconian policies aimed at the little guy here ... just a one-size fits all policy, of which, wasn't completely thought out well and it doesn't fit for those who did not conform to the schools established anti-electronic device policy. Granted, it is easier for the administrators to point to the policy and say No ... than to embrace Brian and say ... "Man ... you're right. Okay what can we do to resolve this problem? Hey ... I'll get our IT guys on the problem and have them implement an identical internet filter/censorship system/program on you kid's iPad so they can bring it to school. Just like all the other kids have."

I find it hard to believe that you would yank your kid out of school where they are doing well (Honor Roll), where all their friends are, which is most likely local/convenient to you because you unilaterally purchased an iPad without checking with the school on their policy on said action. Yes, the school's one-size fits all policy can be harsh, but pulling your kid out of school for the sole reasoning that they won't let you bring a private party, filtered/uncensored computer/iPad to school is wrong.

If you think you need to teach all those in government who are wrong a lesson ... God bless you man and good luck.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

DarkShadow said:


> Well what happens if they decided to go with MacBooks that are in the upper range of a grand and more.Force the parents to sign a contract for a $1500 computer that may become a paper weight after a kid drops it on the bus or it gets stolen  out of his or her backpack.Screw that,I would fight that contract. It is the parents fight since the parents eat the cost of it. I have three kids in public schools and they bring home work home the old way,on paper. Some home work may require use of a computer on occasions but nothing a modern day local library can't handle the task. In my neck of the woods a lot family's are in hardship and have a hard enough time paying for school supplies,uniforms,field trips etc etc.


well if they get macbooks i guess your screwed. I can't figure why they don't have accidental insurance on them. But maybe they do for just 1 instance. Why the first time is ony 50 dollars. Next is replacement cost. The one my kid broke just had a cracked screen so had to pay the 50. The next one is replacement cost. $589. Why i just bought them one instead.


----------



## TreeofLifeStairs (Apr 5, 2015)

The iPads they use at schools near us are locked in their functionality so that the students don't just watch YouTube all day in class. So I can understand why they don't want her using the one you bought, but I see your point and would have a hard time with the situation as well.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 5, 2015)

Gary A. said:


> ...If you think you need to teach all those in government who are wrong a lesson ... God bless you man and good luck.


That's Mr. Quixote to you, sir!


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> The iPads they use at schools near us are locked in their functionality so that the students don't just watch YouTube all day in class. So I can understand why they don't want her using the one you bought, but I see your point and would have a hard time with the situation as well.


yeah. i just dont like contracts. And if i am going to pay out that kind of money i want her to own the thing and not have a "used one that she gets to use that isn't hers and needs to return". 589 dollars to pay is a lot of money for something that isn't even hers she has to return.  If i paid the replacement cost and she could keep it and everything and got a brand new one that would be different. So knowing i wouldn't want that kind of deal i bought her one. So she could keep it, cost less than if she breaks the school one, it is better, and i figured she can use it for school work too and just keep it.
Didn't even think about school policy. 
But i try to see their side too, school policy to prevent kids breaking them, parents letting kids break them, kids abusing electronics in school etc. etc. etc.


----------



## Dave442 (Apr 5, 2015)

How does this compare to other similar contracts like for a cell phone. I have had a couple cell phones stolen and replaced under the contract, but a few years between thefts so I don't know if I would have had to pay the phone cost if a couple were broken or stolen within a year.

So does the contract renew each year so your kid can bust the iPad once each year for $50? Might be a badge of honor for your kid, "hey, I don't have an iPad cause I've already broken two this year".

I fully expect the school is working on Apps that you will have to use. Then when your kid goes to do the homework the App tells them they don't have enough gold, but they can buy some to continue now or wait an hour.

The iPads probably also have tracking enabled, so the school knows where the iPad (and your kid) is all the time even though you don't.


----------



## pgriz (Apr 5, 2015)

My nephews use school-supplied iPads which have secure access to school web pages, lockout of non-school internet stuff, apps for parental review and communication, and means for the tracking the devices (supposedly only school security can see these tracks).  So although your iPad and theirs may look the same and even be the same model, they are probably configured very differently.  Basically confirming what Dave (above) and others have noted.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

Dave442 said:


> How does this compare to other similar contracts like for a cell phone. I have had a couple cell phones stolen and replaced under the contract, but a few years between thefts so I don't know if I would have had to pay the phone cost if a couple were broken or stolen within a year.
> 
> So does the contract renew each year so your kid can bust the iPad once each year for $50? Might be a badge of honor for your kid, "hey, I don't have an iPad cause I've already broken two this year".
> 
> ...


yes. Every school year they have to return them to the school. Then get reissued another one when the school year starts up again. No different than when the schools used textbooks. Except they dont have textbooks anymore they have ipads instead.


----------



## Gary A. (Apr 5, 2015)

I understand and can empathize with your desire to own as opposed to rent. And I understand your frustration with the school saying nyet. But for you to better understand the school ... it is much much easier for the school to say this is how it is, this is our policy - period.

1) All the students have the same equipment with the same programs and filters. Having the same equipment makes a level playing field ... similar to school uniforms and minimizes distractions;
2) If they allow your argument for private party purchase, it just opens another door under a similar argument ... if the school bows and allows private purchase of equipment ... I can see parents saying "Hell, you're  not going tell me how I should spend MY money. Now parents are buying Androids and this and that, and now the schools have to come up with different filters and different platform aps. I becomes a slippery slope mess.
3) I took a beginning photo class with Mary Lou, the teacher wasted at least half the class time trying to address Canon, Nikon, Pentax menus ... then there was a person with film and Mary Lou with Fuji ... it was a mess. One system and one level class is so so unbelievably better ... school uniform time.


----------



## Derrel (Apr 5, 2015)

You are being penny-wise and pound foolish. A $25 a school year iPad rental is dirt-cheap. It might even help a kid learn how to take care of electronics and treat them properly. No outside electronics in schools is a very common new regulation at schools, and has been for several years now. Since you're so good and so prolific at giving smug advice, I'll just say this: figure it out, Dad. Take a bit of responsibility to LEARN what your kid's schooling involves, and stop acting as if the issue is the school's doing. You made you own bed, now fix the problem, so your kid doesn't suffer for your foolishness and lack of involvement. Stop being such a cheapskate. $25 a year rental for a device that costs what, eight times that much? You bought electronics that were unneeded, and you're rationalizing a bad, dumb purchasing decision that you made when you decided to pay your own money for school electronics. Fix the issue. Stop passing the buck. YOU screwed this up. YOU, not the school. So...make it right, and spare us the whining. _This is the **exact** tenor,type, and kind of advice you love to dish out here on TPF almost weekly_, so...some of your own kind of advice right back at you.

If you need to know "why" outside electronics are banned, do five seconds' worth of research.


----------



## limr (Apr 5, 2015)

^^^This.



bribrius said:


> *Didn't even think about school policy. *
> But i try to see their side too, school policy to prevent kids breaking them, parents letting kids break them, kids abusing electronics in school etc. etc. etc.



Exactly. Perhaps you _should_ have. They probably do have proprietary software and if you approached them ahead of time, they could have told you if it was possible to put that software on a student's own tablet.

The contract might have flaws and it could be better for sure, but yes, I do think you were wrong for just barreling ahead and buying the iPad without even considering that it might cause problems for your daughter.


----------



## snowbear (Apr 5, 2015)

Heck, my parents probably spent that for the (first generation) electronic calculator they got me in high school.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 5, 2015)

Okay, for some reason I mis-read Brib's OP and understood the cost to be $25/month.  $25 a year is somewhat more palatable, but regardless, this is NOT a need.  It might be cool, it might be more convenient, but it is most certainly not a need.  If this is meant to replace textbooks (How sad is that???) then it should be treated in the same manner as  text-book, and I certainly don't remember my parents EVER having to pay for me to have text books in elementary, junior high, or high school.


----------



## Derrel (Apr 5, 2015)

Overread said:


> Generally speaking Schools look to earn money where they can and they likely earn from this setup. Thus they don't want to encourage parents to buy their own iPads for their kids because suddenly the school loses out on the income they get.



I think you are talking out of your....HAT on this one....

The cheapest iPad 4 price I can find is $299.95. A typical American primary school in many districts has 34 students per class. That is $10,200 per year for one single classroom of iPad 4 units at 34 x $300. The ANNUAL rental fee is $25 for an iPad 4--a BARGAIN for nine months of use!

The kids are getting the use of a $300 tablet (at base-model price!) that costs 12 times the yearly rental fee.I really do not see much money being earned by the school on this affordable an arrangement.

As far as kids using those new-fangled computer-type devices in school today...by crikey, it's smacks of modernism, and 21st century progress...in MY DAY we had slates and chalk!!! This is almost as bad as the transition from whale oil lamps to that infernal 'legtriciddy stuff.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 5, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking Schools look to earn money where they can and they likely earn from this setup. Thus they don't want to encourage parents to buy their own iPads for their kids because suddenly the school loses out on the income they get.
> ...


Yes, but the school district, IF they pay for them at all does not pay retail.


----------



## limr (Apr 5, 2015)

Wellllll, not for nothing but....if the school is doing this to make money, I'm not sure how that's entirely a bad thing. Most schools are generally underfunded and maybe the bake sales just ain't cutting it anymore. It's time to get creative.

They are also vast disparities in how well schools are funded. Some are severely lacking in resources while others have more funding than they can handle, thanks to school taxes being linked to property values. So allowing underfunded districts to compete with the wealthy abundantly-funded districts is also not entirely a bad thing. They are finding a way to let students use the same equipment that better-situated students do. Leveling the playing field and all. Otherwise, by the time they get to college, some students would be at more of a disadvantage than they already are.

I don't know the funding situation of the district in question here, nor do I understand completely the reasons for the terms of the contract. But I know I'd have read that sucker carefully before signing it or have consulted it before spending money on my own iPad.


----------



## Overread (Apr 5, 2015)

As Tired said the school might not pay for them at retail price; in fact they might even get them donated via some education initiative (either national, state, regional or heck someone might just know someone at a local store/Apple rep and get it via an education donation or significant discount - units might be reconditioned or such too).

Ergo the school has many ways in which it might not cost them a huge sum of money. There's also the fact that even without that cost it still doesn't mean that they don't want to earn from them - if anything that means the $25 is even more important as its going toward offsetting part of a much larger cost.

Edit - note I said earn not profit


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...


well they have the replacement cost listed at $589. so, that is what they bill you after the first breakage (which is 50 dollars guessing they have some one time warranty plan). I think i listed that above somewhere. Keep in mind the kids are getting these passed out used at this point. They might have been new once but most of them aren't now. so it could have a ebay price of scratch and dent 200 value but you still get billed the full 589


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 5, 2015)

bribrius said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



well, im sure that the school doesn't have an unlimited supply of these things, so after the first $50 breakage, (assuming that's a warranty fix) they have to be able to replace them.  maybe they don't get replacements at a discount. maybe there's software on there that costs the school money that has to be accounted for.  maybe its state subsidized and the school doesn't actually get to keep any of the money if there's any left over from year to year. 
As horribly funded as our public schools are down here, I don't begrudge the schools any opportunity they can get to put a little extra money in their coffers. 

My advice would be to get an Otterbox (or other good case) for it and teach your kid how to properly handle and keep track of it. I would gladly pay $25 a year for my kid to get an ipad.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

Derrel said:


> You are being penny-wise and pound foolish. A $25 a school year iPad rental is dirt-cheap. It might even help a kid learn how to take care of electronics and treat them properly. No outside electronics in schools is a very common new regulation at schools, and has been for several years now. Since you're so good and so prolific at giving smug advice, I'll just say this: figure it out, Dad. Take a bit of responsibility to LEARN what your kid's schooling involves, and stop acting as if the issue is the school's doing. You made you own bed, now fix the problem, so your kid doesn't suffer for your foolishness and lack of involvement. Stop being such a cheapskate. $25 a year rental for a device that costs what, eight times that much? You bought electronics that were unneeded, and you're rationalizing a bad, dumb purchasing decision that you made when you decided to pay your own money for school electronics. Fix the issue. Stop passing the buck. YOU screwed this up. YOU, not the school. So...make it right, and spare us the whining. _This is the **exact** tenor,type, and kind of advice you love to dish out here on TPF almost weekly_, so...some of your own kind of advice right back at you.
> 
> If you need to know "why" outside electronics are banned, do five seconds' worth of research.


There really isn't anything to fix. I paid the 25 for the year, i paid the 50 warranty claim. They are more than willing to issue out another ipad. Just at this point i didn't want them to and decided i really just didnt want the deal with the contract and the entire thing.  Really nothing to fix though. If i call the school and just say go ahead and give her another (used) ipad they will. I think i am going to have to everything is on ipads now. kids school work will suffer if i don't. Teachers barely even teach.  Testing this week they have to actually print her tests and make special time for her to take them. As she has no ipad right now. Homework, special assignments so they can be in writing. School work, try to find something to print out. Everything is on the ipads. I probably have to let them give her another one.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 5, 2015)

Overread said:


> As Tired said the school might not pay for them at retail price;* in fact they might even get them donated via some education initiative (either national, state, regional* or heck someone might just know someone at a local store/Apple rep and get it via an education donation or significant discount - units might be reconditioned or such too).
> 
> Ergo the school has many ways in which it might not cost them a huge sum of money. There's also the fact that even without that cost it still doesn't mean that they don't want to earn from them - if anything that means the $25 is even more important as its going toward offsetting part of a much larger cost.
> 
> Edit - note I said earn not profit


From what i gather most of the money for these came from federal and state grant money. I can't say that is where it still comes from for replacements or how that works i don't know. Just the initial purchase was primarily federal and state grant money. They told me that.


limr said:


> Wellllll, not for nothing but....if the school is doing this to make money, I'm not sure how that's entirely a bad thing. Most schools are generally underfunded and maybe the bake sales just ain't cutting it anymore. It's time to get creative.
> 
> They are also vast disparities in how well schools are funded. Some are severely lacking in resources while others have more funding than they can handle, thanks to school taxes being linked to property values. So allowing underfunded districts to compete with the wealthy abundantly-funded districts is also not entirely a bad thing. They are finding a way to let students use the same equipment that better-situated students do. Leveling the playing field and all. Otherwise, by the time they get to college, some students would be at more of a disadvantage than they already are.
> 
> I don't know the funding situation of the district in question here, nor do I understand completely the reasons for the terms of the contract. But I know I'd have read that sucker carefully before signing it or have consulted it before spending money on my own iPad.


Really here nor there as far as i am concerned i just care about the contract, cost, and ownership of the ipad.  Why i posted the thread, as i tend to have tunnel vision on things and not look at everyone elses point of view.
Far as the cost of the ipads originally, see above. Think most of the funding comes from elsewhere. I don't consider ipads really a improvement. It might have actually saved the local districts here money. As they shift that cost to grants. If you think of what they cut though. When we were in school we had paper, implements, hard cover text books. Yeah, that is pretty much all gone. i was shocked a few years back when my kids had just cheap paperback textbooks. Then those disappeared and it seemed the districts around here were crying for ipads. But if you think of the trade off of the cost of hard cover text books, all the paper, all the time involved in dealing with that paper it might be a cost savings.

 Also what i recall of school we had at the most 16-20 in a class. some maybe even only 12 for some classes. Now they have 22-35 kids per class or some crazy number. Depending on what town or state we lived in at the time, what district, the kids per class changed but I dont ever remember having THAT many kids per class.  My siblings went to private school, i grew up in mostly public school. So have some idea of going through the public school system.  I can't say for sure, but i am guessing it might be a "cheaper" education than we had. Or at least cheaper in what actually makes it out of the money spent down to the actual students.  If they want to save money they can cut the payrolls of the superintendents and principles in all these districts and get rid of the unionized teachers. Probably where most of the money goes is the "overhead".  But you knew i would say that.


----------



## limr (Apr 5, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Really here nor there as far as i am concerned i just care about the contract, cost, and ownership of the ipad.  Why i posted the thread, as i tend to have tunnel vision on things and not look at everyone elses point of view.
> Far as the cost of the ipads originally, see above. Think most of the funding comes from elsewhere.



I was talking about funding for the school itself, not funding for the iPads, and I was also replying to a point someone had just made about the school making money. I know you only care about the contract.


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > As Tired said the school might not pay for them at retail price;* in fact they might even get them donated via some education initiative (either national, state, regional* or heck someone might just know someone at a local store/Apple rep and get it via an education donation or significant discount - units might be reconditioned or such too).
> ...


Get rid of the unionized teachers?
I don't know about other states, but teachers in Florida are getting a UFC style beatdown  on their wages and benefits. Classes are bigger than ever, parents are relying on teachers to "raise" their kids more and more, and school funding is getting smaller and smaller.

And the taxpayer's here?
You would think schools would a good cause for a penny hike on taxes, but noooo.
Oh, they will pay to fix roads, highway and median  landscaping....
Downtown artwork....
And a new stadium?  Hell  yea!
But shell  out a little money to improve our children's school's?  @#&$ the schools.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...


Problem with unionized teachers is you can't easily get rid of a bad teacher.  And overhead. Throwing money at a defunct system doesn't really improve it. At some point, like healthcare, we might have to just accept we aren't getting much for our education dollar. Too much red tape, overhead, bureaucracy, something.

American Schools vs. the World Expensive Unequal Bad at Math The Atlantic


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

and . Not to mention. A lot of the u.s. teachers just suck. Where as some of the rest of the world recruits from the top percent to be teachers, our top percent go into business or corporate. A lot of our teachers come from the middle to bottom percent. So basically, not quite the dumbest of the dumb but hardly the smartest or high achieving. Then they get into a union  job, and they are safe and gain tenure.  Where they probably never should have been allowed in education to start with.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/opinion/why-students-do-better-overseas.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school


----------



## runnah (Apr 6, 2015)

Schools have deal with apple to get stuff at little to no cost to the school.
Bringing unsupported devices onto a secure network poses security and liability risks.
its good to get kids learning technology because it is the way of the world. No different than woodshop, home ec or typing class.
The education system is in trouble because of the teacher's union keeping under performing people employed. All the good ones go into private education.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school


the school isn't giving in. Furthest i managed to get is "we understand your concerns, and will address it with the school board for next year. But this is out of our control". And they really don't seem to want to discuss it with me any further.


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school
> ...


Maybe it really is out of their control. 
No point in debating it into next year if they can't implement any sort of solution without going through the school board


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school
> ...


If my kid were still at school age they wouldn't be going to that school


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

runnah said:


> Schools have deal with apple to get stuff at little to no cost to the school.
> Bringing unsupported devices onto a secure network poses security and liability risks.
> its good to get kids learning technology because it is the way of the world. No different than woodshop, home ec or typing class.
> The education system is in trouble because of the teacher's union keeping under performing people employed. All the good ones go into private education.


well, you know the age old addage. If you want a part time job with summers off and full time benefits become a school teacher.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


well, i also put it to them like this. People have insurance on electronic devices, even adults. And warranties. So where is the logic in giving a teenager a near six hundred dollar device with no warranty and just a one time insurance claim? And why if i wreck my car the insurance pays me book value but if your ipad gets wrecked i pay full replacement cost?  So yeah, they really didnt want to discuss it with i tried twice now.


----------



## limr (Apr 6, 2015)

runnah said:


> Schools have deal with apple to get stuff at little to no cost to the school.
> Bringing unsupported devices onto a secure network poses security and liability risks.
> its good to get kids learning technology because it is the way of the world. No different than woodshop, home ec or typing class.
> The education system is in trouble because of the teacher's union keeping under performing people employed. All the good ones go into private education.



I agree with points 1-3. As for #4, I don't completely disagree but I also know that it's a much more complicated question that can't be generalized to this level. Unions have not completely outlived their usefulness for teachers, and the situation can vary drastically between school districts. In some districts, unions may do more harm than good. In other districts, they are still helping the teachers from being screwed over.


----------



## limr (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Schools have deal with apple to get stuff at little to no cost to the school.
> ...



So so so wrong.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

limr said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Schools have deal with apple to get stuff at little to no cost to the school.
> ...


no way. The unions need to go. I can usually tell a teacher the first day of open house. Is the room neat and orderly? Did they have the ambition to do the walls with the educational material or are they too lazy? Do they act like they are in a rush and you are a bother to them? Do they just read off the planned curriculum like a robot or do they have a brain?

And my worst experience. Few years ago i couldnt make a parent teacher conference, had to cancel. Following week i left work early hoping to catch the teacher at the end of the day for ten minutes. She say "i am not required to stay it isn't in our union contract" and just left. I chit you not. what a gem of a teacher she was.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

Not to say they are all bad limr. They aren't . Just under union you can't get rid of the bad ones. In fact, if you have a great teacher you want to keep and reward you can't even give them a raise. Violates the bargaining agreement. So you have bad teachers who shouldn't be there, getting paid more than great teachers. Plus the adminstrations, red tape, they pass a lot of crap DOWN.  You know, chit goes down hill. So the administrations could probably be revamped too. Really just a messed up system all around. The federal and state mandates passed down dont help. All goes down hill. The goal should be to get the best teachers possible, reward your better teachers, get rid of the bad ones, and make as much of every dollar possible actually get into the classroom. It seems closer to the opposite happens.  

And all these teachers are NOT underpaid. Considering they go through the easier college programs, have a lot of time off, and if they stay long enough can make decent money plus be union protected (even if they suck) it really isn't a bad gig. keep in mind these are mostly NOT your over achievers to start with. And now with ipads doing most of the teaching they can sit at their desk making paper airplanes all day and no one would know the difference. 

They dont actually teach as much anymore as in the days when they spent most of the class at the chalkboard in front of the class. They sit at their desks now while all the kids are on learning tutorials on ipads.  Pretty good gig really. hang out, get paid. Get summer off. Everytime it snows they get a day off. Guaranteed holiday, april vacations, whatever else vacations. Not like they work full time.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

I work in lots of schools while they are on holiday, one of the jobs i was running was worth £150,000 and had to be completed in 6 weeks, we worked 7 days and long hours to get it done but failed by a few days, the heas turns up saying I don't know what they have been doing for 6 weeks trouble is I heard her so she got the biggest ****ing she had ever had I didn't care if I got sacked


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

Another school the teachers were only back one day and they were complaining they had to work an extra week (8 weeks)  before their next weeks holiday best thing is they had just had 6 weeks I said your lucky we haven't had a summer holiday


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Another school the teachers were only back one day and they were complaining they had to work an extra week (8 weeks)  before their next weeks holiday best thing is they had just had 6 weeks I said your lucky we haven't had a summer holiday


i was a substitute when i was younger. I seen some stuff. A couple teachers were really good. Others, they didnt even leave me lesson plans. The kids were behind chapters before i even showed up. Stacks of papers, uncorrected left for me to do apparently. Amazing amounts of call ins with them calling in sick. I never knew teachers had so much sick time. Disorganized classrooms, i couldnt find anything. It was HORRENDOUS.  Not all though. Coupe of the teachers, left detailed plans, detailed notes. Requests. Seemed really caring. Others, forget about it. They should have been fired long ago. And laziness, they would avoid work and leave it for the sub to do. For their own students. It was shocking.
some great, others i dont think would deserve a job in a fast food restaurant. It might be even worse now.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Another school the teachers were only back one day and they were complaining they had to work an extra week (8 weeks)  before their next weeks holiday best thing is they had just had 6 weeks I said your lucky we haven't had a summer holiday
> ...


They never clear stuff away before we go in to work there's crap everywhere we probaly waste days moving stuff before we can work its the same in every school I have worked in, as soon as the bell goes on last day they are off then come back the day before term starts then they start moaning


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

gsgary said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


wouldn't surprise me. They argue over who has to do lunch duty and lose a free period. Usually they try to pass it down to the new teachers and schedule it. But if one of the newer teachers scheduled to do it calls in sick it can cause a little argument over who has to do it. I don't want to paint all education or teachers bad though. But really, this happens.  I seen this thing on a corporation (if schools could only think like this). Where the head of the company was tired of lower management hiding in the office when they had other things to be doing. Especially those whose job wasn't to be in a office all day. First he put in windows, to make them visible. so they would be seen screwing off. That didnt work so he ordered the walls to be knocked down on some of them. To keep them from hiding in them. The next step is he took out some computers, as some in the office were sitting there using them and they weren't even supposed to be in that office. Then for those that were supposed to be running the floor supervising others. He installed stand up computer terminals. To keep them from sitting down all day.  So by that theory. Maybe they should implement some of that and get rid of the teachers lounges. Put in big windows facing the hallways so they are constantly seen by everyone that walks by.  And if they call in sick, punish them by giving them lunch duty.   okay, i should probably stop picking on teachers now. some, SOME are really great.


----------



## Designer (Apr 6, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school


Yes.

Apple has supplied Apple products to schools for many years.  It is no doubt a "loss leader", but a heck of a marketing ploy.  Every kid knows how to run Apple stuff, and that's what they want at home.

So the example given, an iPad that retails for lots more than the annual rental fee is probably subsidized to some degree by Apple, and I think nobody expects those iPads to actually last 8 years. 

So yeah, Apple "owns" the schools.


----------



## Designer (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> well, i also put it to them like this. People have insurance on electronic devices, even adults. And warranties. So where is the logic in giving a teenager a near six hundred dollar device with no warranty and just a one time insurance claim? And why if i wreck my car the insurance pays me book value but if your ipad gets wrecked i pay full replacement cost?  So yeah, they really didnt want to discuss it with i tried twice now.


Did your daughter have to pay the $50 herself?

If you are a responsible parent, you should be holding her responsible for the breakage.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 6, 2015)

Designer said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Bloody hell I can't believe this does Apple own the school
> ...


There is no way this should be allowed


----------



## bribrius (Apr 6, 2015)

Designer said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > well, i also put it to them like this. People have insurance on electronic devices, even adults. And warranties. So where is the logic in giving a teenager a near six hundred dollar device with no warranty and just a one time insurance claim? And why if i wreck my car the insurance pays me book value but if your ipad gets wrecked i pay full replacement cost?  So yeah, they really didnt want to discuss it with i tried twice now.
> ...


no. I did. suppose i could have given her the fifty to give to them.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 6, 2015)

Home school........Private School...........move to a new location.........live with it.  

See plenty of ways to solve the problem.


----------



## IronMaskDuval (Apr 6, 2015)

bribrius said:


> some opinions needed.
> 
> 
> my oldest gets a ipad 4 from school. In return i pay 25 dollars a year and have to sign a contract. i have done this two years in a row. I dont even have a cellphone contract i pay for cards when i want one but signed this for my kid to have a ipad to bring home (it is the new thing i guess they bring home homework etc on it).
> ...



I was hesitant to read your novel, but since you took the time to look at my awful photos, I would at least respond. For $25/ year, I can dig it, but to pay full replacement after the second time it breaks is stupid. I would assume that the $25/year pays for insurance, and every company I've known will replace the broken electronic as long as you continue to purchase the insurance.

But, as another poster said, you shouldn't pick this fight for the sake of your daughter. Can she use the school issued just in class and use her own at home? I would try everything to mitigate the risk of a break.


----------



## syaudi (Apr 6, 2015)

a lot of schools are trying to use school-issued iPads to try and integrate what kids love - electronics and games! - with learning, so they're putting more effort into lessons involving the iPad. imho having an iPad won't cripple OP's daughter, but there will probably be some topics she's going to have to self-study since she didn't do the same iPad activities as the other children.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 7, 2015)

syaudi said:


> a lot of schools are trying to use school-issued iPads to try and integrate what kids love - electronics and games! - with learning, so they're putting more effort into lessons involving the iPad. imho having an iPad won't cripple OP's daughter, but there will probably be some topics she's going to have to self-study since she didn't do the same iPad activities as the other children.


So you have got to have an ipad to learn thats ridiculous


----------



## vintagesnaps (Apr 7, 2015)

I worked for 20+ years with children in the birth to three age range, but before that I did teach junior high and all I can say is thankfully it was before pads and pods and smart phones - they'd come up with enough things to get into trouble doing without various devices!

I can understand why a school would say no outside devices, period.

Education varies state to state, and in various districts so it depends - next year before school starts read the district web site or handbook or whatever they make available and get informed on policies, etc. 

Depends on where you live, tenure in my area has changed and it's not so easy for bad teachers to stay on anymore. I think most other jobs that require a college degree (and in my state) licensure pay much more than teaching jobs do, even if you allow for working a 9 month job. My job changed to year round and was still in a pay range well below other careers.

In any field of work there probably is always a small number of employees that aren't that great at their jobs; don't lump educators like Leonore and me who work hard and put care and effort into what we do with those few bad apples who don't.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 7, 2015)

gsgary said:


> syaudi said:
> 
> 
> > a lot of schools are trying to use school-issued iPads to try and integrate what kids love - electronics and games! - with learning, so they're putting more effort into lessons involving the iPad. imho having an iPad won't cripple OP's daughter, but there will probably be some topics she's going to have to self-study since she didn't do the same iPad activities as the other children.
> ...


I know, it's almost like having to have books to learn.  Who would have thunk it. 

Hard cover text books are expensive and wear out/get destroyed too easily.  Downloading the same thing as a file is much cheaper and has advantages of being able to actually use the text book not just read it.  You can highlight important materials, add notes to important materials, book mark important materials all with out having to worry about defacing a book that you have to turn in at the end of the year.

As for college, where was this when I was in school.  No running out of text books at the Student Union store.  So much cheaper than that $250.00 Chemistry book and again with all the above advantages. 

It's a new world with new technologies, which it kind of funny to have to point out on a Photography Forum these days.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 7, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> ...Downloading the same thing as a file is much cheaper and has advantages of being able to actually use the text book not just read it.  You can highlight important materials, add notes to important materials, book mark important materials all with out having to worry about defacing a book that you have to turn in at the end of the year...


Yeahbut.. as soon as you bend the corner of the iPad over to mark your place...


----------



## table1349 (Apr 7, 2015)

tirediron said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Downloading the same thing as a file is much cheaper and has advantages of being able to actually use the text book not just read it.  You can highlight important materials, add notes to important materials, book mark important materials all with out having to worry about defacing a book that you have to turn in at the end of the year...
> ...


But a neon yellow highlighter shows up so well on the glass screen, and wipes off soooo easy.  

Plus no more 40 pound kids lugging a 30 pound backpack full of books.  30 pounds worth of books in a 1.5 pound package.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 7, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > gryphonslair99 said:
> ...


Another reason why kids are getting fatter they just sit in with their ipad playing games thats progress for you


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

There are a ton of good, solid reasons to switch from paper books to electronic.

First and foremost are the overall cost savings to the taxpayers.  Updated E-textbook revisions / replacements cost little to nothing, whereas paper textbooks have always costed us WAY too much and have a very limited lifespan.  It saves paper.  It saves the environment from the chemical pollution that comes out of paper mills.  It saves trees.  Tests can be done on them and "handed in" electronically, again saving paper costs, copier machine costs, time and money spent by staff to do all the behind the scenes work moving paper around, making copies, reading and grading papers and tests that typically use multiple choice, rather than essay, which can be more quickly and efficiently done by computer, etc., etc., etc.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, but good enough reasons for moving from paper books to electronic devices like tablets.

As for why the school will not accept home machines, I can think of some good reasons for that as well.  First, one must consider that the machines will be interfacing with the school's network computers.  That brings with it the risks of hacking, virus, etc.  I can imagine the possibility that the school's issued devices have safeguards in place to help prevent those kinds of e-threats.

It may also be the case that the school gets discounts or financial help with the devices only by agreeing to buy and use truckloads of them.  In order to fulfill that obligation, they find it most useful to limit participation only to those who use the school-sanctioned devices.

These are all questions for the school board however.  Only they can provide the exact reasoning behind their decisions, and only then can the parents decide whether they make sense or not, and hence whether to support the current school board members in the next election.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> There are a ton of good, solid reasons to switch from paper books to electronic.
> 
> First and foremost are the overall cost savings to the taxpayers.  Updated E-textbook revisions / replacements cost little to nothing, whereas paper textbooks have always costed us WAY too much and have a very limited lifespan.  It saves paper.  It saves the environment from the chemical pollution that comes out of paper mills.  It saves trees.  Tests can be done on them and "handed in" electronically, again saving paper costs, copier machine costs, time and money spent by staff to do all the behind the scenes work moving paper around, making copies, reading and grading papers and tests that typically use multiple choice, rather than essay, which can be more quickly and efficiently done by computer, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> ...



Sorry but I don't think this is a good way to learn


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > There are a ton of good, solid reasons to switch from paper books to electronic.
> ...


Sorry, but I doubt anyone particularly cares if you think it is or not.  Welcome to the future, where digital cameras exist, and so do digital textbooks.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


And fat slobs that sit playing with their ipads, roll on diabetes epidemic


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Please provide the independent scientific evidence that ipads lead to diabetes at your earliest convenience.  Links will be fine.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


Not ipads only but it is fact that kids have got lazy with all this technology they just sit in and play games


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Interesting...  You should relay that to all the photographers who shoot school sports, so they can find something else to do with their time and energy, since they're obviously lying about that.  While you're at it, be sure to inform the summer camps, skateboard parks, zoos, scouting organizations, roller rinks, bowling alleys and the like that all those youths found using them for fun don't actually exist.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


Is that with your blinkers on there are plenty not doing sports


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Is that with your blinkers on there are plenty not doing sports


And there are plenty who are, just like there have always been.  You think it's somehow a new phenomenon that some kids go in for more physical pursuits while others are into more cerebral pursuits?

Some 40 years ago, long before Ipads or laptops or home computers of any kind, I and many of my peers enjoyed photography, electronics, art, and so on, which had us sitting on our butts quite a bit.  Others of our friends tended to more physical things like traditional sports.

You want to pretend that the balance has radically shifted and nearly all of today's youth are spending all their time sitting around with their eyes buried in a screen, getting fat, and getting diabetes.

Too bad you can't actually prove such a myopic, curmudgeonly assertion to be anything more than an opinion by someone who's shown repeatedly that they pretty much hate the modern digital age and everything about it, as evidenced by your attempt to wave away my challenge to support your claim with actual scientific evidence that Ipads lead to diabetes.

You spend most of your time on this forum playing the part of a Luddite, just looking for threads where you can jump in and bash digital cameras in favor of film, knowing it does nothing but get a rise out of some folks.  It's apparently your main reason to frequent these boards.  In that pursuit of your apparent hobby, this thread was ready-made for you.

Just wondering: Are you under the impression that anyone thinks your anti-modern curmudgeonly attitude is endearing or something?


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Is that with your blinkers on there are plenty not doing sports
> ...


I haven't mentioned photography digital or film I just don't think it is good for kids to be only learning on an ipad and becoming dependant on technology to solve a problem


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> I haven't mentioned photography digital or film


You've spent most of your time and posts on this forum site "mentioning" it and establishing yourself in the way I described.  To try to separate that history from the subject of this thread and your responses to it would be truly seeking to view it with blinders on, which I don't care to do.



gsgary said:


> I just don't think it is good for kids to be only learning on an ipad and becoming dependant on technology to solve a problem


Then why are you asserting that they're all fat, lazy and getting diabetes because of it?  No sir, you've been claiming quite a bit more than what you say here and now in this most recent post.

By the way, where do you get "only" from?

Tell me the real difference between reading from an Ipad and reading from a book.

Tell me the real difference between checking a box on a screen and checking a box on a piece of paper.

Tell me the real difference between passing your test forward in the class or hitting "send" to the teacher.

Where's the science, the independent studies, that say one method is less beneficial than the other when it comes to learning?  Where's the science, the independent studies, that show that one leads to being fat, lazy and ate up with diabetes, per your claims and assertions?

You don't have any.

Look up the current average weights of teens, and you'll be hard pressed to show that they're "all" or even "mostly" fat, lazy and ate up with diabetes.  I just did, spending some time on several different sites to see if anyone had anything Earth-shatteringly different that might support your claims.  I couldn't find any.

As for depending on technology to solve a problem, that is the history of mankind.  We have ALWAYS depended on the latest technologies to solve problems, be it counting fingers, sticks and clay, beads on an abacus, pencil and paper, mechanical calculator, electronic calculator or now computers including tablets.

Clay tablets, papyrus, ink, goose quills, fountain pens, typewriters, word processors, apps.  See how that works?

Crawling, walking, running, riding horses, attaching wagons to horses, using more horses for bigger wagons, bicycles, motorized vehicles, busses, trucks, biplanes, passenger planes, commercial jets, supersonic transatlantic jets, spaceships to the moon and back, international space stations...  See how that works?

Swimming, crude rafts, canoes, rowboats, barges, sailboats, schooners, steamships, diesel cargo and passenger ships, nuclear aircraft carriers, submarines.  See how that works?

No doubt, in Gutenberg's day, you'd be the guy who says it's somehow wrong to be mass-producing text on pages and full-on books.  For you, I'm sure hand-copying is so much better because printing presses don't take as much thought, care, work and time.

It's called "progress", Gary, and nobody cares if you're against it.  Stop driving around in powered vehicles and using computers and watching televisions if you're so against progress, but stop wagging your finger at the rest of the world.  The only difference between you and everyone else is that you draw the line at a different arbitrary technology point and rail against anything beyond that, which is pretty ridiculous.

Enough is enough, Gary.  You don't like modern tech - so much so that you're willing to suspend rational thought and make claims you absolutely cannot substantiate.  We get it, okay?  Quite clearly, we don't care what you think about it as we continue to progress forward, with or without you.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

You said look up the average weight of school children
CDC - Obesity - Facts - Adolescent and School Health


----------



## Designer (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Is that with your blinkers on there are plenty not doing sports
> ...


I wouldn't expect anyone to find it "endearing", but I have pretty much the same impression.  Perhaps it is simply a matter of me getting older, but I get the idea that a larger percentage people of all ages are less active than previous generations.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Designer said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Not me when you work in construction on a price you are flat out every day


----------



## Designer (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Not me when you work in construction on a price you are flat out every day


I've worked construction.  I've also done tree work.  Believe it or not, I was fairly fit way back when.

I would arise at 5:30, go for a run, then drive to work doing tree work.  I was very fit.  

I also consumed food or fruit juice nearly all day.  I never calculated the calories.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Designer said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Not me when you work in construction on a price you are flat out every day
> ...


I can't put any weigh on because I'm having a £1200 Saville Row tweed suit made for my wedding


----------



## bribrius (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't mentioned photography digital or film
> ...


I might be a little bit of a luddite too. There are things i have done in relation to this. For instance the kids are growing up with wiki. When i realized my kid didn't know how to look something up in a dictionary a few years ago i started taking some of the electronics away for her home school work on certain occasions. They whined and cried, but had to go look up the words in a actual dictionary. I was somewhat shocked also a few years back that she didnt really know how to write in cursive (least not well). They are growing up typing, electronic age. So i spent some time on that. Despite having a laptop and ipad i still make sure they have a library card. Granted, they hardly ever use it but i think it is important. Suppose, while i think progress is a fact of life, i believe i have a responsibility to make sure it is really progress. She needs to be able to think for her herself and do the work with or without the electronics. And this is where the reliance comes in. While the kids are becoming more reliant on electronics some other things seem to be slipping through the cracks. Just as calculators are great, but i think one needs to be able to do the work out by hand still. But yeah, when i realized she had trouble with cursive and looking things up in a dictionary a few years back (which she fought having to do kicking and screaming since online is easier and so is typing) i kind of realized it may not be all all that great.

I probably have four dictionaries in the house (about a hundred bucks). I didnt have to buy them. we are pretty new age. But i think it is important.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Britain used to big the king of industry, manufacturing made us great now we export sweet FA everyone wants to be in the service industries and bloody IT


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Britain used to big the king of industry, manufacturing made us great now we export sweet FA everyone wants to be in the service industries and bloody IT



the United States used to be the same way. 
we USED to be a country of producers....now we are just a country of consumers.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 8, 2015)

Buckster said:


> There are a ton of good, solid reasons to switch from paper books to electronic.
> 
> First and foremost are the overall cost savings to the taxpayers.  Updated E-textbook revisions / replacements cost little to nothing, whereas paper textbooks have always costed us WAY too much and have a very limited lifespan.  It saves paper.  It saves the environment from the chemical pollution that comes out of paper mills.  It saves trees.  Tests can be done on them and "handed in" electronically, again saving paper costs, copier machine costs, time and money spent by staff to do all the behind the scenes work moving paper around, making copies, reading and grading papers and tests that typically use multiple choice, rather than essay, which can be more quickly and efficiently done by computer, etc., etc., etc..


I'm not convinced of this.  Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.  As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that.  Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go.  I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.

Leave us also not forget the biggest issue:  Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics.  It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics.  Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

I wonder how many know how to use Cosines and Tangents without an ipad


----------



## Designer (Apr 8, 2015)

We actually had an entire semester class on using a slide rule.  Now they're antiques.


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> I wonder how many know how to use Cosines and Tangents without an ipad



arent those fruit?
i love tangents...so much easier to peel than regular oranges.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

I might be crap at English but I'm good at maths


----------



## gsgary (Apr 8, 2015)

Designer said:


> We actually had an entire semester class on using a slide rule.  Now they're antiques.


I know architects that still use them


----------



## tirediron (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> I wonder how many know how to use Cosines and Tangents without an ipad


 Don't you mean, "know what a COS or TAN is"?


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

gsgary said:


> You said look up the average weight of school children
> CDC - Obesity - Facts - Adolescent and School Health


Actually, Gary, what I said was:

"Look up the current average weights of teens, *and you'll be hard pressed to show that they're "all" or even "mostly" fat, lazy and ate up with diabetes*."

How convenient of you to leave that last part off.

BMI, like most "normal" body calculations, is not without flaws due to the very nature of the fact that people have different body types.  This is recognized by healthcare professionals as a factor which can vary whether any individual should be classified as over or under "normal", regardless of their BMI.  From the history of BMI:

In 1998, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention brought U.S. definitions in line with World Health Organizationguidelines, lowering the normal/overweight cut-off from BMI 27.8 to BMI 25. *This had the effect of redefining approximately 29 million Americans, previously healthy to overweight. * This can partially explain the increase in the _overweight_ diagnosis in the past 20 years, and the increase in sales of the weight loss products during the same time. WHO also recommends lowering the normal/overweight threshold for South East Asian body types to around BMI 23, and expects further revisions to emerge from clinical studies of different body types.

This little 5 year old girl, my granddaughter, was deemed by her school as overweight right around the time I shot the photo below, based solely on her BMI:







She doesn't spend much time watching TV or playing on computers.  She has a tablet but rarely uses it other than when she's in the car where she can't move around.  The rest of the time, she's jumping, running, doing flips and so forth (currently says she wants to be a gymnast and a ballerina).  She doesn't care for sweets at all, and her favorite snacks are pickles, cucumbers, green peppers, lettuce and ice.  She shuns soda almost entirely and asks for water most of the time if she wants something to drink.  None of this behavior is coerced or even suggested by anyone.  It's just who she is and her personal tastes.

She's the spitting image and size of her mother at that age, who would definitely been deemed overweight by the same BMI standards, had that been lowered in the US earlier enough to have affected her.  That daughter of mine is now 28 years old and even after having 2 children is tall, thin and very healthy:






Unlike my granddaughter, she was not a terribly active child.  She actually DID spend a lot of time sitting at computers from the time she was a toddler.  She also spent a LOT of time just sitting or lying down and reading, which appeared to be her primary interest.  She spent a little time on a youth soccer team, but had no real interest in it, and it didn't last long.  Same with a basketball team she was on in school.  She didn't pursue any sports at all outside of school either.  I tried to get her interested in riding a bicycle like most kids, and she had no interest at all in even owning one after she was about 7 years old.  She just last year finally got one so she could go bike riding with me and my granddaughter.  None of her behavior was coerced or even suggested by anyone. That's just who she was.

That 28 year lifespan (will be 29 in July) coincides with the 30 years cited by the CDC in the link you provided.  But when I look at my daughter and her friends, I don't see a bunch of fat, lazy people on their way to rampant diabetes.  I see normal, healthy human beings who grew up in the modern age of computers who have a range of bodies that are neither obese nor anorexic.

All that said, I don't personally put a lot of weight (yes I went there) into the whole BMI thing.  It was developed at a time (1830-1850) when people were measuring everything and trying to establish something they could say is "normal" as "ideal".  That doesn't mean that it necessarily is.

You carried on with your words as if to imply that nearly all of today's youth are fat, lazy and headed for diabetes BECAUSE of the modern technology you so hate, in particular computers and now tablets.

You have however, failed to show actual links and causation between the two, and I question the veracity of the BMI, especially since there was a huge increase when the US decided to adopt it as a standard, throwing millions of people suddenly into the "overweight" column, which accounts for a large percentage of the increase in obesity cited as though it's rampant.  Those people didn't change size though - they stayed virtually the same, and the line suddenly shifted to stick them on the other side of it.

In any case, you have yet to show that sitting and reading a textbook is somehow healthier or objectively "better" than sitting and reading a tablet with the same information.  You have yet to show an objective correlation between tablets and diabetes, tablets and obesity, tablets and laziness.

That makes it difficult for me to take your claims and assertions very seriously.


----------



## Overread (Apr 8, 2015)

Any doctor worth their licence and degree knows that BMI is only a crude single tool in the calculation of weight and body mass and if a person is or isn't overweight. Anyone who takes it as 100% gospel is generally going to end up in some form of trouble.

It's one tool of many - and to get a good result a doctor will use many tools and features as well as the age ,activity etc.. of the subject in question. Many children often put on some weight; its there and very healthy as it provides material for growth and development.

It's when things get to the extreme ends or where weight gain or loss is much more striking and significant that we need to consider that there could be a problem.


Heck most bodybuilders and heavy muscle builders are oft way off on their BMI scores and listed as critically obese according to the BMI.



Also reading a book is no more nor less healthy than using a computer however;
Prolonged typing at high speeds can cause RSI same for using a mouse. (they are poor erganomic designs in general)

Prolonged screen exposure can cause weakness in eyes - the same is also true of using microscopes and reading books lots. 


In general the dangers are the same - its just that books are seen as "better" because they don't have facebook in them


----------



## Buckster (Apr 8, 2015)

tirediron said:


> I'm not convinced of this.  Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.


But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.



tirediron said:


> As far as the environmental aspect, I strongly dispute that.  Having lived on the west coast for 40 years, I've seen many logging operations, clear-cuts mills, pulp plants, etc, and NONE of them can come even remotely close to the degree of environmental hazard posed by third-world electronics recycling, which is done almost exclusively in Asia, and where 90+% of North American consumer electronics go.  I'll take a clear cut over a pile of smoulder plastics where iPads have been melted down for precious metal extraction any time.



Have some reality: Environmental impact of paper - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right.  The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda.  As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way. 

The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded.  That's reality.  The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it.  News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.



tirediron said:


> Leave us also not forget the biggest issue:  Schools are doing less and less teaching of the basics.  It's all well and good to say, "Technology is the future, teach it!", but you can't neglect the basics.  Knowing your multiplcation tables, how to perform basic long division with a pencil stub on a napkin... these are real-world skills, and unlike your iPad, the battery in my pencil has never run down to the point where I can't use it!


If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it.  The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.  The school board members are elected by and influenced by the citizens of their communities.  That means it's up to those citizens what's being taught and why.  They WILL necessarily have to factor in cost, and where the money will come from.  They WILL necessarily have to factor in a vision of the future of available jobs, and teach students what they need in order to compete in that future world.

It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule.  But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator.  And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.

My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do.  She learned it in school, just like I did.  My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it.  Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals".  We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.

As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use.  Do they get it drilled in as much as we did?  No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.

Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it?  Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose?  If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database?  Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days?  Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?

Just stop, already.  If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 9, 2015)

Buckster said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not convinced of this.  Yes, there will be an initial cost-saving if the school agrees to use Apple products since they will get them at little to no cost (at least for a while), however talking to people I know in the post-secondary education world (yes, I understand that's not what the OP referred to), there hasn't been a great deal of change in the price of e-textbooks vs. paper ones. They're still specialized publications made in limited numbers, and will always cost a lot, and will always have a premium price because students "need" them.
> ...


You won't change my mind I would much rather have a book than an ipad


----------



## Buckster (Apr 9, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...


I never expected to change your mind, and I still don't care.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 9, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


They did have calculators when you were at school because we had them but were not allowed t use them in exams


----------



## Buckster (Apr 9, 2015)

0000


gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Yes, they were available when I was in the higher grades in school (graduated in '76), but nobody I knew had one at the time, probably because they were still too expensive for the poor part of town I was growing up in.  I DID use one later in technical school, as required.

In any case, thanks for focusing on the most important part of this whole conversation to rebut.  LOL

Feel free to address the lack of support for the rest of your claims at your convenience.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 9, 2015)

Buckster said:


> But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.


Granted, however I was meaning the cost to the consumer/student; the difference between electronic and paper books is minimal, at least in the Canadian system.  It may be different in your area.  The other point is:  There's no such thing as a second-hand e-book. 



Buckster said:


> Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right.  The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda.  As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.


  I'm not suggesting for a second that pollution in any form is 'right', or that one is better than another.  I am stating however, that the pollution arising from the North American/European production of text-books and paper-based educational material is many orders of magnitude less harmful than the south-east Asian production/ of electronics.  The reality of the situation is, regardless of western views, most of this processing does, and will continue to occur in south-east Asia simply because of cheap labour and lax environmental standards.  Like it or lump it... it is.



Buckster said:


> The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded.  That's reality.  The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it.  News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.


Really?  YOu need to add remarks like those?  I'm well aware that electronics are here to stay; I'm a user of technology myself, and I don't dispute the value of it.  I do dispute wisdom of educational systems which fail to teach the basics such as "times tables" and other basic arithmatic, as well as cursive writing. 



Buckster said:


> If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it.  The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.


  Again, that may be true where you live, for those of us living in North Igloo Junction, the curriculum is a provincial matter.  Even the provinicial teacher's federation has problems making changes, but I don't dispute your point.  I choose not to tilt at that particular windmill simply because I have no horse in the race, and thus other than the extorting of funds from me through taxiation, it matters not a whit.



Buckster said:


> It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule.  But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator.  And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.


 I don't recall mentioning slide-rules...



Buckster said:


> My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do.  She learned it in school, just like I did.  My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it.  Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals".  We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.


 Then you sir, are a good parent, and have done her a service that far too many modern parents fail to!  I say that in complete sincerity!



Buckster said:


> As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use.  Do they get it drilled in as much as we did?  No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.


  No, it's not a lot of rhetoric, at least not in Canada.  When I was teaching basic trades training to new sailors fresh out of basic training (about ten years ago), one of the phases of training involved a great deal of what I would call "moderate mental math" and the ability to calculate an equation which was, more or less, a two digit number divided by 60 and mulipled by either 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4.  I typically needed to spend at least a half-day going over HOW to do these calculations, and this for people who were, on average, no more than three years out of high-school!



Buckster said:


> Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it?  Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose?  If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database?  Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days?  Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?
> Just stop, already.  If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.


Again, is it really necessary to add the belittling remarks?  I'm not at all adverse to technology, nor advancement.  I'm well aware that the slide-rule has been replaced, and I don't think for a second that it's a bad thing.  My point was that schools, especially at the junior levels should be concentrating on basics.  Providing the children a foundation on which to grow their knowledge, and I don't think that foundation necessarily needs to start off with iPads.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 9, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.
> ...


Allow me to remind you that this is a thread about tablets and, in particular, tablets used by schools these days to replace textbooks, encyclopedias, paper tests, etc.

Some, you included, have been trying to make a case that use of TABLETS by schools these days is somehow evil.  Accusations pointed TABLET use by school systems leads to a population that is FAT, LAZY, ate up with DIABETES and, most particular to you, some level of IDIOCY because they'll no longer be able to function at basic levels - BECAUSE OF TABLETS if you're addressing the THREAD THEME.

I don't buy the premise of ANY of those arguments that you folks against tablet use by schools is trying to make.  You folks have YET to show actual causation between tablet use and any of your asserted outcomes due to them.


----------



## tirediron (Apr 9, 2015)

Buckster said:


> ...and, most particular to you, some level of IDIOCY because they'll no longer be able to function at basic levels - BECAUSE OF TABLETS if you're addressing the THREAD THEME.


I don't really think a different viewpoint calls for a term such as "idiocy"....



Buckster said:


> ...I don't buy the premise of ANY of those arguments that you folks against tablet use by schools is trying to make.


As is your privilege; after all different viewpoints and the ability to debate them is one of the benefits of civilized society.



Buckster said:


> ...  You folks have YET to show actual causation between tablet use and any of your asserted outcomes due to them.


 I am not against the use of tablets, I am against the mandated use of tablets and against the thought of them somehow being considered essential.  Nice to have?  Yes.  Beneficial?  I suppose.  Essential?  Sorry, don't buy it.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2015)

you dreamin if you think humans are moving UP^^^^^  Couple weeks ago i stopped to put gas in my truck. Long azz line. I couldn't figure out what happened. I walk in the building i see this long line in there too. People standing around. All kinds of people. Cashier looks at me and asks if i am paying with cash. I said yes. She calls me up to the counter. Everyone else is looking. The manager is telling them "we should have this sorted out in a few more minutes and we apologize" or something to that extent. While i am paying the cashier i ask her what what was going on.
She tells me the credit/debit card interface or something went down.

no chit.....


----------



## tirediron (Apr 9, 2015)

bribrius said:


> you dreamin if you think humans are moving UP^^^^^  Couple weeks ago i stopped to put gas in my truck. Long azz line. I couldn't figure out what happened. I walk in the building i see this long line in there too. People standing around. All kinds of people. Cashier looks at me and asks if i am paying with cash. I said yes. She calls me up to the counter. Everyone else is looking. The manager is telling them "we should have this sorted out in a few more minutes and we apologize" or something to that extent. While i am paying the cashier i ask her what what was going on.
> She tells me the credit/debit card interface or something went down.
> 
> no chit.....


 Ain't the basics beautiful!


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2015)

not to say ipads are inevitably bad. They are cheaper than books over all, information updated and kept readily at the finger tips more easily. Hopefully some day they or a similar device can replace the brick and mortar structure and bussing for many students. So less teachers, less bussing, less cost, more time learning. Welcome to the new age. I believe a balance is important though. Keeping it down to earth. Dependency can be a horrendous thing. The luddites aren't totally wrong.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2015)

tirediron said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > you dreamin if you think humans are moving UP^^^^^  Couple weeks ago i stopped to put gas in my truck. Long azz line. I couldn't figure out what happened. I walk in the building i see this long line in there too. People standing around. All kinds of people. Cashier looks at me and asks if i am paying with cash. I said yes. She calls me up to the counter. Everyone else is looking. The manager is telling them "we should have this sorted out in a few more minutes and we apologize" or something to that extent. While i am paying the cashier i ask her what what was going on.
> ...


meh... In some ways it is progress, in some ways regress. Still waiting for the day the northeast power grid goes down. Far as the ipads. The initial studies in education "look" positive. Stuff like this isn't determined in a few years though i don't think? Usually they are reflected a decade to two later in hindsight. Too early to tell.  TBD (to be determined). We won't really know for years the end result. Far as moving into the "new economy". The luddites were right in a way on that too. Not everyone is going to be a software engineer. More advanced we become, less people are required to produce goods and services. So if you are looking to employ people technology in general is counter productive to that. If you are looking to educate them, that is something else. Education and advancement DOES NOT = work. Which is fine but admitting that is the first step.  Total opposites. In the new economy most populations will need less than 30 percent of it working. Increase in efficiency. So the educators really need to decide what they are teaching and training the kids for. And they need something better than just "employment".


----------



## gsgary (Apr 9, 2015)

Talking of slide rules, my new watch arrived today and it has a slide rule bessel, a lovely RAF Red Arrows limited edition


----------



## NancyMoranG (Apr 9, 2015)




----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

bribrius said:


> you dreamin if you think humans are moving UP^^^^^  Couple weeks ago i stopped to put gas in my truck. Long azz line. I couldn't figure out what happened. I walk in the building i see this long line in there too. People standing around. All kinds of people. Cashier looks at me and asks if i am paying with cash. I said yes. She calls me up to the counter. Everyone else is looking. The manager is telling them "we should have this sorted out in a few more minutes and we apologize" or something to that extent. While i am paying the cashier i ask her what what was going on.
> She tells me the credit/debit card interface or something went down.
> 
> no chit.....


Oh, look!  An exception to the rule!  Well, in that case, stop the world!  Everyone needs to stop using electronic forms of payment immediately and switch back to cash because there was a payment hiccup at a gas station!  

Never mind the fact that literally millions of electronic transactions go through every day without a hitch quicker and easier than some old lady ahead of you digging through her purse, counting out bills, then digging some more to find her change purse, and counting out change to the exact penny.  While we're at it, let's find the exceptions that make us think we should all go back to Kodachrome, adding machines, horse and carriage, buggy whips, VHS, and a thousand other things that make somebody out there sad that they got replaced.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.
> ...


So, you only want to look at one cost in order to try to claim that e-books aren't cheaper, when in fact they are anyway, and you don't want to bring in all of the associated costs collectively.  And I should take this argument from you seriously... ummm... why?



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right.  The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda.  As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.
> ...


 My point stands, and now you acknowledge it: It's not going to stop, whether you like paper books better or not.  It's not an either / or choice of one evil over another.  In the end, the writing is on the wall: Paper books will be replaced by e-books just as digital sensors are replacing film, just as digital recorders and players have replaced tape camcorders and VHS players, and so forth.  There's no stopping it, so the best bet is to learn how to best deal with it, not try to turn the tide with a bucket at the beach while whining about how you don't like it.



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded.  That's reality.  The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it.  News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.
> ...


First, you haven't shown objectively that "times tables" are NOT being taught.  Second, you haven't shown objectively that they NEED to be taught in the modern age, any more than how to use a slide rule needs to be taught to every school child in the modern age where it's far less important.

I realize from the continued rhetoric that surrounds these types of discussions that some of you seem to think that suddenly electrons will cease to flow, and all electronic devices will fail to work, and we'll overnight be thrust back into a pre-industrial civilization, but you haven't shown objectively that such is a realistic outlook for the future either.



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it.  The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.
> ...


So, are you actually trying to tell me that Canadians have no say in their own educational system?  I can understand that there may be a different hierarchy to get there, but you're making noises like Canadian citizens have no say at all in the matter.  Seriously?



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule.  But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator.  And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.
> ...


They were brought up by someone else in the thread, and they make a good placeholder example of what we're talking about here, which is the replacement of old technology with new, how it will march forward like it or not, and what that means for everyone.



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do.  She learned it in school, just like I did.  My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it.  Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals".  We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.
> ...


I'm not the one that taught her that stuff.  The public schools she attended taught her that stuff.  I was on the road chasing my career and paying for everything her entire childhood, having her only during the summers and at Christmas.  We did not spend that limited time together in "Buck's Math Class 101".

In other words, you missed again.



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use.  Do they get it drilled in as much as we did?  No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.
> ...


Apparently Canadians are far more ignorant that I'd realized.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Look, it's no secret that certain skills are not drilled into every kid in the educations systems these days.  There are practical reasons in terms of time and money why not every kid needs to know how to do the kind of math you're talking about anymore, along with a whole host of other things we learned at a time when things were different and we DID generally need those skills to function in most jobs at the time.  Those that do need those skills because of career choices in the modern era learn them later as necessary to actually work in those careers.

Whether YOU think that's good or bad is pointless.  It is what it is, and if parents want different things to be concentrated on, like doing that kind of math in one's head or on a napkin, then they need to get involved to change it (except in Canada, where the citizens have no say at all in the matter apparently).  That's really all there is to it.

You can say you think it's bad, but have you conducted the objective scientific studies to show it as conclusive?  No.  You base it solely on your gut feeling that it's "bad", probably because it's not what YOU learned, disregarding the fact that the objective TODAY is not to prepare students to enter into the job markets of yesteryear.  Education standards aren't formed in a gut-feeling-bubble either, and I think it's important to point that out.  There actually ARE people who conduct objective scientific studies associated with education and make their educated recommendations based on the results and conclusions.



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it?  Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose?  If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database?  Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days?  Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?
> ...


Prove objectively WHY, and show those objective reasons to the people in your country to prove why you're right and they're wrong.  Or, if you don't have such a leg to stand on, perhaps you should sit down.

And you actually tried to sidestep my questions.  Why DON'T you use those older methods of getting to the answers?  Why DO you use modern technology INSTEAD?  Let's examine that, seriously.  I want to know specifically WHY YOU feel you NEED to be able to do long division on a napkin when YOU never NEED to actually do that anymore.  You would be hard-pressed to find a human being over the age of about 10 in North America who does not have a calculator within immediate reach, probably in their pocket or purse or on their hip or already in their hand.  They don't NEED a napkin OR the skills to work math out on one.

There was a time when you and I NEEDED that ability, but we don't NEED it anymore, and our children don't NEED it any more than we do anymore.  There was a time when the general public NEEDED to know how to care for their horse, but that time has passed, so we don't teach it anymore.  Is it a good thing to know?  Sure, and some still need that skill.  But we have limited resource in terms of time and money to teach our youth, and it needs to be well spent on things they will really NEED.

e-books are here to stay, and I think that's really the bottom line of this conversation.  As they replace paper books for very good reasons, Luddites kicking and whining over it notwithstanding, "forcing" their use at $25 per year on people who can easily afford that low cost, while providing them to lower income folks at less or no cost is really no different nor more outrageous or exorbitant than "forcing" families to buy and provide any other basic school supplies, including, in many cases in the past, paper textbooks.  That was always especially true in higher education, where such paper textbooks easily cost hundreds of dollars EACH.

A simple look on Amazon at the price of a paper book vs. its e-book version shows the direction this is all going.  I always go for the e-book if it's available, and fewer aren't available in that format each day.  First, it's cheaper.  Second, I can carry and access my entire library with me wherever I go with zero effort.  I don't NEED a paper book anymore, let alone stacks and bookshelves full of them.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > ...and, most particular to you, some level of IDIOCY because they'll no longer be able to function at basic levels - BECAUSE OF TABLETS if you're addressing the THREAD THEME.
> ...


Perhaps "ignorance" works better for you?



tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > ...  You folks have YET to show actual causation between tablet use and any of your asserted outcomes due to them.
> ...


It doesn't matter if you buy it or not.  It's still reality that e-books are replacing paper books, for very good, practical reasons, and that means having devices capable of reading them.  Lots of things in schools, especially in the way of supplies, are mandated, so it's not like it's unprecedented.

That said, yes they are becoming essential, like it or not, agree with it or not.  Good luck figuring out how to deal with that reality.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 10, 2015)

E books will never do away with paper books and digital has not done away with film


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

gsgary said:


> E books will never do away with paper books and digital has not done away with film


...yet.

"Never"?  You make me laugh at your Luddite-powered naiveté.  Go shoot some Kodachrome.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > E books will never do away with paper books and digital has not done away with film
> ...


In the outback where you live it maybe hard to get film but not where I live, I prefer the look of film and there are lots like me


----------



## pgriz (Apr 10, 2015)

While technology, especially everything connected to the internet, is an amazing and empowering tool (or sets of tools), it's not without its drawbacks.  Chief among them is losing the link to the underlying principles, techniques, processes.  Perhaps that is not an issue for most, but the losing the ability to make that link, makes us more vulnerable in case of disruption.

An example of this is navigation using GPS vs. the skills of map reading and dead reckoning.  The GPS gives extremely good positional accuracy, excellent tools for knowing the speed, altitude, direction of intended travel, and position on a map.  With the right maps loaded into the unit, a variety of ways exist to plot one's route (by vehicle or on foot).  And yet, instructors in navigation classes usually insist on the students learning the older methods of determining and tracking position, for times that the electronic equipment fails (for whatever reason), or cannot obtain a proper reading.   In this case, context is important.  Losing the GPS while travelling in a car in an urban area may be an inconvenience, but losing GPS positioning while kayaking in the wilderness may be fatal.

Technology is not limited to electronic devices.  The food that the majority of us eat has been processed extensively.  We gain access, variety, convenience, cost reduction, and in some cases, better nutrition.  But the flip side is that we know much less about how our foods are produced (antibiotics and hormones in meat?  pesticides and GMO in our grains and fruits and veggies?), we are more dependent on transport and processing (which has an impact on the environment), and the industrialization of our food often supports business models that we may not be comfortable with if we know more about how that food is grown or processed.  This has been acknowledged by people pushing food independence, or at least self-reliance, which tries to link the food we eat to known sources and processes that we, as consumers, are more comfortable with.  It IS about choices.  Out of these considerations, come approaches such as the 100-mile diet, slow-cooking, organic and urban farming. 

Technology is also affecting the way we interact with each other.  Whether one acknowledges it or not, having a smart-phone present usually changes the dynamic with the person you're with.  There are times when this is fine.  There are times when it is just inappropriate.  We're still learning how to determine when we should modify our own behavior.  One very clear example, is the use of cellphones while driving.    By now, most jurisdictions have a prohibition against cell-phone use (with the usual exception of hands-free) while driving a vehicle.  Most people that I know ignore those rules.  

"Progress" will happen.  What we need to do is figure out how to incorporate it so that we can still hold on to stuff that we consider important.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


I repeat: Go shoot some Kodachrome.

In fact, do that while you're ignoring how many types and quantities of film are no longer produced, and how it will continue to dwindle every year.  As fewer Luddites survive a continued interest to buy and use it, profit margins will decrease necessitating an increase in price in order to justify the continued manufacture of it.  As price increases, fewer Luddites will justify it, and the spiral away from film will continue.  At some point, it will simply not be cost-effective to produce film.

Not saying that happens next year or even in the next 5 years.  But it's coming.  Film type after film type will bite the dust because of a lack of interested buyers.  Eventually, the day will arrive when the announcement is made that the last runs of films will be produced on X date, just like the news of the collapse of Kodachrome.  Feel free to be shocked when that happens, just like those who were aghast at the announcement of Kodachrome, even though few of them were actually using it anymore, which was the whole reason it collapsed.

Ignore that reality all you like.  It doesn't affect me at all whether you can emotionally deal with it or not.

And now you've got this thread right were you want it - in an argument about film vs digital.

Carry on.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

The idea that the human race as a whole will no longer be able to do long division on a napkin or read a map or any of the other examples presented in this thread is kind of ridiculous, tbh imho.  Not everyone will be able to do it, but realistically, not everyone was able to do it anyway, even when it was being drilled into us all.

Those who need those skills learn them.  It's always been thus.


----------



## nerwin (Apr 10, 2015)

That is ridiculous. I wish there was iPads when I was in school. Most of the students in my high school had some sort of palm device! Only the rich students had an original iPhone, others just had basic flip phones which you were allowed to use during school! Except during classes. The schools that I went to are now doing the same thing with the iPads, but they allow you to use your own iPad or tablet or if you can't afford one, they supply you one for free.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > you dreamin if you think humans are moving UP^^^^^  Couple weeks ago i stopped to put gas in my truck. Long azz line. I couldn't figure out what happened. I walk in the building i see this long line in there too. People standing around. All kinds of people. Cashier looks at me and asks if i am paying with cash. I said yes. She calls me up to the counter. Everyone else is looking. The manager is telling them "we should have this sorted out in a few more minutes and we apologize" or something to that extent. While i am paying the cashier i ask her what what was going on.
> ...


well. i would consider it a crack. Depending on how big that crack becomes depends on the after effects. The more reliant we become on electronics and less balance with them the more susceptible we are to potential disaster effects. I like electronics, i also realize they are very much a "castles in the air" approach separated somewhat from the natural world. so if you lose power i suppose you could try to use the ipad for a hammer but it wouldnt make it long. Electronics are only as good as the system they are incorporated with in. Which is themselves reliance on other systems, which is reliant on other systems. Very fallible.  Now if they send out ipads with do it yourself solar power kits you had to assemble to run one that would be of value. However in our society we are mostly consumers. About it. A malfunction can take a entire part of the system down. The protech people (i am center of the line) can't seem to grasp the concept of the day they wake up and none of this chit works.  I get a reminder of that every time i lose power. There are some great uses for technology. Much fo it is also a mirage. It isn't real. learn to build a windmill, that is real. Learn to sanitize your water supply charcoal and sand  filtered. That is reall Learn to built a fire . That is real. These are things that have practical use. Learning to repair machinery, practical use.  Putting all your eggs in one basket and depending on tech is a death sentence if the system crashes. We run that risk of raising tech junkies that cant survive without them. More tech you go, higher the risk. A simgle emp deviced or break down in the systems running the food suppy woud kill millions. That is dependency. This is what the tech junkies cant seem to understand. They look as tech as a savior or God. The cant comprehend the day you can't turn god on and have to fend for yourself. And as a entire system, we leave our open to potential sheer devastation. As we wont be able to survive without what we made working.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

Feel free to say I told you so when the great apocalypse comes, all electricity generation fails, and all electrical devices suddenly stop working.

Excuse me for not holding my breath though.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Feel free to say I told you so when the great apocalypse comes, all electricity generation fails, and all electrical devices suddenly stop working.
> 
> Excuse me for not holding my breath though.


i see it all the time. My area loses power you would think it was the end of the world. They scurry like ants. Before you promote tech so much, you might do well to do a little due diligence on the associated risks. They are very real. You can find instances of these "cracks" quite readily. Do some research. The u.s. government has spent a lot of money in potential disaster preparation scenarios. Tech has only increased that risk. Go read some reports. Maybe they will be a eye opener for you. I have seen just a simple computer system go down, which made food not get to a chain of stores shelves. This is very real. Do some due diligence. Maybe you will understand better why some of us walk that middle of the road. While tech has it's benefits. There is something to be said for that slide rule as well.

People create their "system" within the overall natural system. Guess which one prevails?


----------



## gsgary (Apr 10, 2015)

That ipad of yours isn't going to help me neck a load of real ale tonight


----------



## pgriz (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Feel free to say I told you so when the great apocalypse comes, all electricity generation fails, and all electrical devices suddenly stop working.
> 
> Excuse me for not holding my breath though.



It doesn't require the apocalypse to have issues.  Just any number of natural events, ranging from ice storms, to major flooding, to tornadoes and hurricanes, to winter storms to earthquates and tsunamis.  If the sun has another snit-fit like it did in 1859 (the Carrington Event), there is a very good chance that the electric grid would be down for more than a few months, not to mention having the satellites fried (at least enough to be non-functional).  We've also had a number of large meteor strikes (Cheliabinsk being a recent example), which if they occur over an urban area could be rather disruptive.  Plus, given the prominence that cyberwarfare is getting, it is not inconceivable that some group that doesn't like the Western approach, may deliver some system-crippling viruses or other malware.  There is a reason why Russia, China and India are putting up their own GPS and communication satellites.  In short, modern technology is wonderful and fun, but critical systems should have some form of non-electronic backup.  Just in case.

As for using iPads to facilitate student learning,  I don't have any issues with it, as long as the school or school board implementing this method isn't thinking that just changing the tools will give the students a better learning experience.  I have two daughters (one in university, one who's doing the teaching), several nephews and at least two sister-in-laws that are fully plugged into the possibilities of cyber education.  But there have been issues that come with this type of connection (viruses, hacks, impersonation, inappropriate contact) that have to be dealt with.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 10, 2015)

My gps threw a fit when I was touring Spain on my motorbike while the Gulf war was on I was told it had been turned off for the invasion good job I had maps


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

No system, even non-electronic, is infallible.  Oh my god!  What if a tornado blows your slide rule, napkin, pencil and map away!!  Horrors!  You won't be able to calculate how to get your analog-powered rocket to the moon and back!!  What a disaster!!!

It's coming!  You just mark my words!!  Run!  Run for your lives!  Spend the time now to learn how to carve wheels out of rocks using discarded soda straws, or you'll never be able to survive!!


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

Obviously, this signals the end to civilization:

First Navy recruits issued tablets at Great Lakes


----------



## waday (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


>


All this tampering with the ozone layer.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

gsgary said:


> That ipad of yours isn't going to help me neck a load of real ale tonight


Neither will your paper map.


----------



## gsgary (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > That ipad of yours isn't going to help me neck a load of real ale tonight
> ...


I have the waterproof maps so a could fold it into a tankard


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

gsgary said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Please do, video the process, including drinking from it, with a tape camcorder, send the tape to someone to digitize it for you, put the digitized video file up on youtube, then post it here for us all to see how that worked out for you.  Or, if that electronic camcorder that uses tape to record digital ones and zeros is still too high tech for you, shoot it with 8mm movie gear and have that processed into digital, or maybe have an artisan chisel the scene into a series of clay tablets, shoot each one with Kodachrome, then put them together into a video sequence we can see.

Go ahead and show us those mad skillz you have with a map turned into a tankard.  Until you do, I don't believe a word of it.  I think you're just pulling this stuff out of some dark crevice somewhere because you can't deal with the reality of a digital future coming straight at you like a runaway freight train.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

pgriz said:


> It doesn't require the apocalypse to have issues.  Just any number of natural events, ranging from ice storms, to major flooding, to tornadoes and hurricanes, to winter storms to earthquates and tsunamis.  If the sun has another snit-fit like it did in 1859 (the Carrington Event), there is a very good chance that the electric grid would be down for more than a few months, not to mention having the satellites fried (at least enough to be non-functional).  We've also had a number of large meteor strikes (Cheliabinsk being a recent example), which if they occur over an urban area could be rather disruptive.  Plus, given the prominence that cyberwarfare is getting, it is not inconceivable that some group that doesn't like the Western approach, may deliver some system-crippling viruses or other malware.  There is a reason why Russia, China and India are putting up their own GPS and communication satellites.  In short, modern technology is wonderful and fun, but critical systems should have some form of non-electronic backup.  Just in case.


Again, we're talking in this thread about tablets in schools as a basic school supply for reading and research, not the failsafe systems on nuclear weapons missile silos.  The fact that some of you have to scale up to Earth-melting scenarios to show what a horrible idea tablets in school is speaks volumes to me about how NOT significant or controversial the ACTUAL topic of tablets in schools really is.

I get that you don't personally seem to think that tablets in schools is a horrible idea, btw.  But to further the conversation in the direction of those who have to scale up like that in an attempt to make any headway for their argument is, I think, counterproductive to the actual topic of, once again, tablets in schools.

And the pulling out of exceptions like weather events that disrupt electronic systems here and there is, to me, tantamount to trying to make the case that everyone having a horse and buggy is better than them having cars or trucks because sometimes powered vehicles crash and snarl traffic, injure or kill people, and so forth.  Sometimes weather events shut down roads.  Another sun "snit-fit" like the one in 1859 would also take out all the electronic systems in those powered vehicles also.

So what's the alternative?  Go back to horse and buggy and shut down the airlines?  Does that seem realistic to ANYBODY here?  If not, then what IS your answer to that problem, if you consider it a real threat to worry about on a daily basis, enough so that you feel something MUST BE DONE - starting with, of all things, stopping the spread of the use of tablets in schools.

Truly, I'm flabbergasted by the direction and reach of the comments associated with trying to make a case that tablets in schools is not just a bad idea but also, apparently, truly dangerous for mankind as a whole.


----------



## KenC (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Truly, I'm flabbergasted by the direction and reach of the comments associated with trying to make a case that tablets in schools is not just a bad idea but also, apparently, truly dangerous for mankind as a whole.



I thought you'd been here long enough not to be surprised by anything you see here.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

KenC said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Truly, I'm flabbergasted by the direction and reach of the comments associated with trying to make a case that tablets in schools is not just a bad idea but also, apparently, truly dangerous for mankind as a whole.
> ...


it's actually quite surprising how often I'm surprised by some of things that go on here.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't require the apocalypse to have issues.  Just any number of natural events, ranging from ice storms, to major flooding, to tornadoes and hurricanes, to winter storms to earthquates and tsunamis.  If the sun has another snit-fit like it did in 1859 (the Carrington Event), there is a very good chance that the electric grid would be down for more than a few months, not to mention having the satellites fried (at least enough to be non-functional).  We've also had a number of large meteor strikes (Cheliabinsk being a recent example), which if they occur over an urban area could be rather disruptive.  Plus, given the prominence that cyberwarfare is getting, it is not inconceivable that some group that doesn't like the Western approach, may deliver some system-crippling viruses or other malware.  There is a reason why Russia, China and India are putting up their own GPS and communication satellites.  In short, modern technology is wonderful and fun, but critical systems should have some form of non-electronic backup.  Just in case.
> ...


we already discussed tablets. It was discovered some people like them, other dont think they are a good idea, and others think they are fine long as it is a balance.

you just haven't kept up.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > pgriz said:
> ...


Yeah, that's me all over - I just can't keep up.  

Like, the post I quoted and responded to, the very one you're responding to here, doesn't address tablets at all in the second paragraph:


pgriz said:


> As for using iPads to facilitate student learning,  I don't have any issues with it, as long as the school or school board implementing this method isn't thinking that just changing the tools will give the students a better learning experience.  I have two daughters (one in university, one who's doing the teaching), several nephews and at least two sister-in-laws that are fully plugged into the possibilities of cyber education.  But there have been issues that come with this type of connection (viruses, hacks, impersonation, inappropriate contact) that have to be dealt with.


If only *I* could keep up...  sigh...


----------



## crzyfotopeeple (Apr 10, 2015)

I get ur pooitnt


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2015)

Buckster said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


we won't know the true effects of all this for a couple decades. Hindsight is 20/20. Right now it seems cheaper, easier, more efficient. And more fun for kids since they don't have to write much. Easier for teachers as they don't have to hand grade or teach so much. Following here? It revolves around easier, cheaper, and more fun. Wonder why they are all for it.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 10, 2015)

pgriz said:


> As for using iPads to facilitate student learning,  I don't have any issues with it, as long as the school or school board implementing this method isn't thinking that just changing the tools will give the students a better learning experience.  I have two daughters (one in university, one who's doing the teaching), several nephews and at least two sister-in-laws that are fully plugged into the possibilities of cyber education.  But there have been issues that come with this type of connection (viruses, hacks, impersonation, inappropriate contact) that have to be dealt with.





bribrius said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


"Cheaper" I obviously concur with, since it definitely is, especially over the long haul.  

As for your contention that it's all about being fun and easy, you've already made it clear that you are entirely biased to rebuke the idea of their use and looking for any reason to support that bias, even when your comments don't actually hold up under further scrutiny.  

To my knowledge, you are not an expert on the forefront of current cutting-edge education techniques nor the scientific studies and conclusion that support them, nor have you consulted with those who are, or even your local school board to get their perspective on WHY.  You're ignoring the obviousness of the reality that surrounds you on the issue, and preferring your gut feelings instead.

That's fine for you, but it doesn't move my needle even a fraction toward accepting that your gut feeling is valid in real-world education needs and applications for the youth of today and the world they'll have to deal with as adults.

Educational needs and techniques evolve over time to meet the challenges of the era they exist in, as well as the best guess for the near-future needs of those to be educated.  It has always been so.  

Our children's future world and existence isn't what the world and existence of our past was, nor even the world and existence as it is today.  Look back 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and consider the changes to our lives, our jobs, our understanding, and so forth, over that period of time.  Now project forward 20, 30, 40, 50 years and try to imagine what kinds of changes might occur; Changes we have an obligation to prepare today's youth for if at all possible.

We can't achieve that basic educational goal by wasting any of the finite time, energy and dollars we have by concentrating on teaching them things we don't expect them to actually need in that future world.

As for tablets in particular, look around.  They're showing up everywhere on people's actual jobs today, from the executive to the assistant to the FedEX and UPS delivery people to the warehouse workers to the engineers and construction people to - you name it - they're popping up everywhere as a means to get and provide information and data quickly, efficiently and at reduced costs.  That use of tablets all around us in everyday jobs is only going to increase over time.  So yes, the youth of today DO need to be well acclimated to using them for all kinds of purposes and tasks and software in order to be prepared for their jobs and world of the future.  They ARE essential in today's educational environment because of that fact alone.

Your flippant remarks about how it's just because they're "easier cheaper and more _*fun*_" misses the mark by a longshot and shows no practical vision for the needs of our childrens' futures.


----------



## snerd (Apr 11, 2015)

It's hard letting go of the old and grabbing onto the new.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 11, 2015)

Buckster said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > As for using iPads to facilitate student learning,  I don't have any issues with it, as long as the school or school board implementing this method isn't thinking that just changing the tools will give the students a better learning experience.  I have two daughters (one in university, one who's doing the teaching), several nephews and at least two sister-in-laws that are fully plugged into the possibilities of cyber education.  But there have been issues that come with this type of connection (viruses, hacks, impersonation, inappropriate contact) that have to be dealt with.
> ...





Buckster said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > As for using iPads to facilitate student learning,  I don't have any issues with it, as long as the school or school board implementing this method isn't thinking that just changing the tools will give the students a better learning experience.  I have two daughters (one in university, one who's doing the teaching), several nephews and at least two sister-in-laws that are fully plugged into the possibilities of cyber education.  But there have been issues that come with this type of connection (viruses, hacks, impersonation, inappropriate contact) that have to be dealt with.
> ...


Good points. You are going with the assumption children aren't exposed to electronic devices already though. Like this is somehow cutting edge. Their houses already have tablets, computers, ipods, cellphones etc. etc. etc  They already live in a electronic age. If anything they might have too many electronics and be a little short on manual and thinking skills.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 11, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Good points. You are going with the assumption children aren't exposed to electronic devices already though. Like this is somehow cutting edge. Their houses already have tablets, computers, ipods, cellphones etc. etc. etc  They already live in a electronic age. If anything they might have too many electronics and be a little short on manual and thinking skills.


If I'm making any assumptions at all regarding this, it's that any devices like this that they use at home are being used almost exclusively for play and social media, NOT for work tasks that will relate to their future jobs in some way. 

Meanwhile, you are apparently assuming that all kids have tablets at home, per your assertion above.  My nieces and nephews sure didn't before the school issued them - too poor for their family to make that happen.  Their house has no computers, no tablets (other than the school-issued ones), only their dad has a cell phone, and it's a basic flip phone, not a smart phone.  There are a lot of very low-income families in their area, so I ASSUME that they are not the only ones in that position.

Apparently, YOUR kid didn't have one either, per your details about how you decided to buy her one AFTER the school issued it.

That said, how do the kids in those families across the country prepare for the future with little to no hands-on experience?  And again, even for those who have electronics at home, how does playing Angry Birds teach them how to set up a spreadsheet or solve more complex math problems or compose essays on one?

You're also making the assertion tried earlier in this thread that they're ignorant or idiots with your comment that, "they might have too many electronics and be a little short on manual and thinking skills", and you're again tying it to the use of modern electronic devices - AGAIN without any corroborating evidence that such is the case.

At what point do you stop making stuff like this up about all this?  How many times do your comments and assertions and claims have to be shown not to comport with the reality or actual evidence that surrounds these issues for you to stop ignoring them?


----------



## bribrius (Apr 11, 2015)

Buckster said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Good points. You are going with the assumption children aren't exposed to electronic devices already though. Like this is somehow cutting edge. Their houses already have tablets, computers, ipods, cellphones etc. etc. etc  They already live in a electronic age. If anything they might have too many electronics and be a little short on manual and thinking skills.
> ...


Shocking Study Shows Why Technology Is Not Really Making Us Smarter - Forbes


Does Technology Make Us Smarter or Dumber TIME.com

Is Technology Making Us Stupid and Smarter Psychology Today

It is the crystalized iq that is mostly the kicker. As in, what a person actually KNOWS. Not to mention if you were bored and wanted to go look up u.s. statistics in education they aren't that stellar and i am sure you can find all kinds of studies on detrimental effects of electronics on social development, writing, and memory.  You are pleading a case for the "dumbing down" of society. I am not sure you realized that. Perhaps you should rethink your position. You could also find plenty of data on obesity in the united states if you really wanted to look. Most of us, have carried with this as assumption because the debate on electronics has been going on for years. You can find someone that knows how to operate a ipad, that cant even write effectively or might have trouble c0unting change.  People sort through a myriad of cellphone/smart phone applications but can score below proficiency on a iq test (even the new easier ones that dont gauge as much actual knowledge)... None of this is new. Just seems like you are outdated and just started considering it. Keep up with the times. geez. And no one has to convince you. Do your own homework.  Stop being lazy.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 11, 2015)

Show how tablet use has led to the current state of education in the United States as compared to other countries.  Again, yes, I'm asking you to show ACTUAL correlation and causation for your continued assertions.

Now then, if I go find a dozen articles that "prove" the world is flat, will that convince you that it is?

Stop being lazy yourself and look around you at the real world that's filling up in every profession with tablet use, then tell me again why students shouldn't be learning to use them in school.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 11, 2015)

What they actually "know". Means if you take away the electronics and go by what is actually in long term memory means they don't "know" a hell of a lot. And basic


Buckster said:


> If I go find a dozen articles that "prove" the world is flat, will that convince you that it is?
> 
> Stop being lazy yourself and look around you at the real world that's filling up in every profession with tablet use, then tell me again why students shouldn't be learning to use them in school.


balance. "Knowing" something is different.  For instance, when my child was learning sq ft area and volume. I didnt just let them do the "teacher assignment" i handed them a tape measure and had them measure the household appliances. then i asked if i could move this to here, this to here, etc. The transition of b.s. knowledge into applied knowledge. That goes into long term memory. Looking something up on a ipad or on this laptop i am on right now doesn't really amount to squat. Neither will most of these tutorials they hand out on these ipads in schools. jmo. I think balance is necessary. As they become tech smart and actual functioning iq (you know, actual real knowledge) stupid.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 11, 2015)

By the way, what's YOUR answer to the problem you keep trying to thrust to the forefront: Dumb kids due to modern tech?

Should we abandon it all and go back to the pre-industrial era, Mr. Luddite?  Somewhere between then and now? Define a line in the sand for us, so we know just where you stand.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 11, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Show how tablet use has led to the current state of education in the United States as compared to other countries.  Again, yes, I'm asking you to show ACTUAL correlation and causation for your continued assertions.
> 
> Now then, if I go find a dozen articles that "prove" the world is flat, will that convince you that it is?
> 
> Stop being lazy yourself and look around you at the real world that's filling up in every profession with tablet use, then tell me again why students shouldn't be learning to use them in school.


take away the tablet. what do they know now?????  Dependency....


----------



## table1349 (Apr 11, 2015)

So let me get this straight, reading words on paper is different than reading words on an electronic device?  Is the answer to 2+2 different if it is written on paper than if it is on an electronic device?  Funny, but in my part of the world Cat, whether it is on paper or on an electronic device still means this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




In my part of the world 2+2=4 either on paper or on an electronic device. 

Apples to oranges my friend.   Back in the day when your ancestors were picking lice off their N#%%$ and eating raw meat fire was new technology.  Every discovery, invention or creation since early man quite flinging his poop at each other has been a new technology.

It's how it is used that matters.


----------



## Buckster (Apr 11, 2015)

bribrius said:


> What they actually "know". Means if you take away the electronics and go by what is actually in long term memory means they don't "know" a hell of a lot. And basic
> 
> 
> Buckster said:
> ...


I see.  And when did you become an expert on modern education techniques and the skills needed for the future of current generations of humans?  What fields of study and degrees did you achieve in that pursuit?  How did you determine that your child would not have acquired the skill to measure an appliance at some point without your guidance?


----------



## Buckster (Apr 11, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Show how tablet use has led to the current state of education in the United States as compared to other countries.  Again, yes, I'm asking you to show ACTUAL correlation and causation for your continued assertions.
> ...


Prove that claim.

By the way, I just wonder if your spelling, grammar and punctuation would have been any better if you'd learned with a tablet that had grammar, spell check, and punctuation checking functions, rather than a human and a dictionary that didn't tell you every time you flubbed it.


----------

