# Homelessness in B&W. I am just getting into photography, tell me what you think.



## 503Amateur

I'm pretty new to the whole photography game, so I could use some do's and don'ts in respect to my pictures. This was a candid shot of a homeless guy(Ray was his name) under a bridge in Salem, Oregon so this was on the spot with no preparation or setup. By the way, I'm a Tpf virgin, so be gentle.


----------



## amandamartin

No.  While it may make for an interesting shot, is it ethical?  I vote no.


----------



## Ernicus

To me, it doesn't capture the essence of a homeless person.  It could easily be a guy in a coat standing around.  Which is what I see.


----------



## Ernicus

amandamartin said:


> No.  While it may make for an interesting shot, is it ethical?  I vote no.



What's the difference in shooting a homeless guy hanging out vs. a rich guy outside a cafe hanging out?  Homeless people are people too and deserve to be in candids as much as the next guy.  Especially if you shoot them in that kind of light...as people.


----------



## amandamartin

Ernicus said:


> amandamartin said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  While it may make for an interesting shot, is it ethical?  I vote no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the difference in shooting a homeless guy hanging out vs. a rich guy outside a cafe hanging out?  Homeless people are people too and deserve to be in candids as much as the next guy.  Especially if you shoot them in that kind of light...as people.
Click to expand...


There is nothing wrong with it, if you are shooting them because they are a person.  if you are shooting them because they are homeless OR because they are rich, it's exploitation.  Just my opinion.  I wouldn't feel right about it.


----------



## Jaemie

Besides the "homeless" issue, how is it candid when he's looking straight at the camera and appears to know you are taking his picture? Was the camera hidden? This looks like a portrait.


----------



## Ernicus

Jaemie said:


> Besides the "homeless" issue, how is it candid when he's looking straight at the camera



Good call...I totally missed that one.


----------



## LaFoto

While I don't see "homelessness" (as is put into the title) in this photo, and maybe not "candidness", other than that this photo was not set up with lights and more, I still do see solidly good photography with regards to lighting, settings, use of background, composition and expression.
And since apparently this photo gave the photographer and the photographed person a chance to talk (else how would he know the person's name is Ray?), something good was achieved beyond the mere taking of the photo - it induced conversation between two people. So there's nothing unethical for me to be seen.


----------



## 503Amateur

I should have been more clear on what I meant by candid. I shot this as a part of a photojournalism assignment to show the more human side of homelessness in Salem. I did not just go out and snap this picture without talking to the guy. Even if I did, I would not have had an issue with the ethics of it, as it is a public place and I am not exploiting him in any way. If people didn't cover people in different situations or from different backgrounds by taking their pictures then photojournalism wouldn't exist. I talked with him for about thirty minutes as he was panhandling before I brought the camera out. After getting to know him I shot a series of pictures as he was doing his thing. He just so happened to look right at me as I took this picture. He was holding an "anything helps" sign, but I was standing right up against the street, and couldn't get it in the shot. But, back to the image itself. Is it too dark, contrast too much?


----------



## 503Amateur

And I paid him $10 for his time, which doesn't go very well with the whole photojournalism aspect, but I felt like I needed to give the guy something for hovering around him for fifteen minutes.


----------



## unpopular

Often times homeless people are just guys in a coat. While the image does not illustrate homelessness, it's a decent enough portrait. That's kind of the challenge of photographing the homeless, how do you illustrate the person and their social status without it being solely about one or the other. I would argue that it is far less ethical to try to use a homeless person to represent all homeless people; when photographing the homeless, we should be capturing the individual's essence, which to a large degree may include homelessness, rather than trying to capture the essence of homelessness through an individual.

Another issue I have with much homeless photography is that while the ordinary people can go home and live a life of privacy, the same does not apply to the homeless. The homeless truly have no expectation of privacy, and it is wrong to exploit this characteristic of their living condition for the benefit of the photographer. But this isn't a cheap shot of a homeless man sleeping under a bridge. So I don't think that it is exploitive in that area either.

Unless you've been homeless, and have first-hand experience knowing what it's like out there, i'd say you really have no right to say what is acceptable.


----------



## 503Amateur

This picture was supposed to be one out of a photo essay that I was going to do around town that was going to cover multiple people, but it didn't end up working out so Ray was the only person that I ended up covering. My reason for picking this as my topic was that I was homeless as a teenager, so I know how much it sucks to have people look down at you when you're already in a rough spot.


----------



## unpopular

503 - most people wouldn't choose this image to illustrate a homeless person. You had done a very good job of ensuring that Roy remains "human", if there were several images of homeless people presented as ordinary people I think it'd be an interesting set; otoh, I am not sure if it may sanitize the situation. As you know, homelessness changes you and changes your perspective. So I don't think it's appropriate to hide the fact in order to illustrate the individual. Not that I am saying that this was done intentionally, but it may be interprited that way.


----------



## Jaemie

Should I throw some popcorn into the microwave?


----------



## 503Amateur

Unpopular-I understand what you're saying. I should have just posted this thread under another name and left the details of the picture out. Lol, I'm just trying to get the hang of photography and was looking for suggestions on the picture itself(strengths, weaknesses, too processed, ect).


----------



## Jaemie

Well, the lighting is good. The composition could be criticized, but I like it; the blackness gives a sense of emptiness or mystery, the huge jacket is intriguing (or is Ray just small?), the underpass adds immediacy, Ray's expression could be interpreted many ways. It's technically well executed and very emotionally engaging. It's stark and I like that.


----------



## rokvi

I took a photo of a guy with 3 homes, is that unethical?


----------



## SCraig

503Amateur said:


> Lol, I'm just trying to get the hang of photography and was looking for suggestions on the picture
> itself(strengths, weaknesses, too processed, ect).


OK, first I don't like the composition.  Too much dead, black space on the left that adds nothing to the shot.  The open-sky upper right corner is distracting and draws my eye away from the subject.  The contrast is too high in my opinion, too much black and not enough gray in his face (although personally I dislike black and white to start with).

Had you not said that he was homeless I never would have known it.  The coat he's wearing does not look like one that a homeless person would wear, it looks like it's new.   There is nothing in the shot that says "Homeless" to me, just a photograph of a guy.  Show his face.  Show the stubble of beard and the hopelessness in his eyes and then maybe I'd think "Homeless" but this doesn't work for me.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

SCraig said:
			
		

> OK, first I don't like the composition.  Too much dead, black space on the left that adds nothing to the shot.  The open-sky upper right corner is distracting and draws my eye away from the subject.  The contrast is too high in my opinion, too much black and not enough gray in his face (although personally I dislike black and white to start with).
> 
> Had you not said that he was homeless I never would have known it.  The coat he's wearing does not look like one that a homeless person would wear, it looks like it's new.   There is nothing in the shot that says "Homeless" to me, just a photograph of a guy.  Show his face.  Show the stubble of beard and the hopelessness in his eyes and then maybe I'd think "Homeless" but this doesn't work for me.



I agree with this post 110%. The shot has so much potential, especially with the lighting angle on your subject. However, there are too many flaws with the composition. It literally looks like a regular working man in a large coat.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## cgipson1

503Amateur said:


> I should have been more clear on what I meant by candid. I shot this as a part of a photojournalism assignment to show the more human side of homelessness in Salem. I did not just go out and snap this picture without talking to the guy. Even if I did, I would not have had an issue with the ethics of it, as it is a public place and I am not exploiting him in any way. If people didn't cover people in different situations or from different backgrounds by taking their pictures then photojournalism wouldn't exist. I talked with him for about thirty minutes as he was panhandling before I brought the camera out. After getting to know him I shot a series of pictures as he was doing his thing. He just so happened to look right at me as I took this picture. He was holding an "anything helps" sign, but I was standing right up against the street, and couldn't get it in the shot. But, back to the image itself. Is it too dark, contrast too much?



Is there a reason you didn't shoot this "portrait" in vertical format? You could have gotten the sign (adding context).. and gotten rid of that HUGE expanse of black nothing....

A lot of people shoot the homeless for the "shock value".. the dirt, wrinkles, odd clothing, etc.... and that is often frowned upon. Kind of like amateur level National Enquirer type stuff. Not saying YOU did that.. just trying to explain the bias against shooting the homeless unless well done for good reasons...


----------



## Jaemie

Okay, _*now*_ I'm making the popcorn.


----------



## Ernicus

...add fuel to fire and grabs a bag of popcorn too....


Maybe you should put a UV filter on your lens in case the next homeless guy throws a rock at you, then your lens won't get broken.


----------



## yerlem

He talked to the guy and then took a picture of him, with Ray's consent. How is that unethical?
I was sitting by the river with a friend the other day, and there were 3 or 4 photography students taking pictures of us, without asking if they could do it in the first place...was I being exploited?


----------



## AaronLLockhart

I don't understand how ethics has any involvement with this photograph in the first place. Photographing him is no different than photographing a complete stranger. You all say ethics comes into it if he is taking the image to be artsy, on the grounds that the man is homeless. That's hogwash. Photographers take photographs of people all of the time because they are beautiful, yet I don't see anyone calling that exploitation. 

The man is homeless. It's not a disease, and it's not a sickness. He's homeless because of a decision that was made somewhere along in his life. In fact, that same decision may be what's causing him to remain homeless. We are in America, not Africa. Being homeless here isn't a misfortune, it's a choice.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## Jaemie

AaronLLockhart said:


> We are in America, not Africa. Being homeless here isn't a misfortune, it's a choice.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S



Ray doesn't look so fortunate in the photo.


----------



## Ernicus

AaronLLockhart said:


> Being homeless here isn't a misfortune, it's a choice.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S



LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.


----------



## SCraig

Ernicus said:


> LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.


There are always two sides.  In many cases he is right and in many cases he may be wrong.

We have a rather large homeless population here, and some of them truly are by choice.  One local television news crew interviewed a number of them several years back.  I remember it because one of the people they interviewed had a masters degree in something.  He just decided he was tired of working, didn't want to do it anymore, and would rather live under a bridge.  Others make a pretty good living panhandling.  I see the same ones in the same places day in, day out, and most of them don't look like they miss many meals.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

Ernicus said:
			
		

> LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.



Bad times have came on me, when I was 18-21, I was in similar shoes. I was a drug addict and making my way through life as a stay in with my friends and their homes. Pretty much every night I switched locations. Eventually my friends got sick of it and patience was wearing thin. 

I CHOSE to do something about it. Now I'm going on 29 years old, I have my own place, a car, a family, and a nice stable job producing good income. So, don't call my statement arrogant or naive. I speak from experience.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## yerlem

I went to Oregon once. Homless people there had nicer clothes than I did, lol


----------



## unpopular

AaronLLockhart said:


> He's homeless because of a decision that was made somewhere along in his life. In fact, that same decision may be what's causing him to remain homeless.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S



ALL RIGHT! Now let's get some popcorn!

Ok Aaron. Why is it that for some people the choices we make have less or more impact than others? Why is it you don't see many homeless teens in wealthy neighborhoods?

Are you really telling me that a 23 year old kid addicted to alcohol from a poor family has an equal chance of obtaining treatment as a 23 year old from a wealthy neighborhood? Which of these two kids are more likely to have health insurance? Which of the se two kid's parents are more likely to have the resources to pay for treatment? Which of these two kids are more likely to have parents who can support him financially?

And what about mental illness? Perhaps you don't realize it, but there is a wait-list usually 12+ months in major cities. The poor spend this time on the streets, often allowing their health to deteriorate to the point that they are incapable of even knowing that they had applied in the first place. Where do you think wealthy people stay during this time period. 

The same goes for social security applications, so it's not just a matter of "staying on meds" because despite the truth is there are three month wait lists for public psychiatrists - without medicare benefits, these people have no access to the healthcare which they need to stay stable. Again within that time period conditions often worsen to the point that they couldn't maintain a home even if they had one.

So put down your iPhone 4S and look out your window. You're entitled to anything by any virtue. Nobody is.


----------



## unpopular

AaronLLockhart said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad times have came on me, when I was 18-21, I was in similar shoes. I was a drug addict and making my way through life as a stay in with my friends and their homes. Pretty much every night I switched locations. Eventually my friends got sick of it and patience was wearing thin.
> 
> I CHOSE to do something about it. Now I'm going on 29 years old, I have my own place, a car, a family, and a nice stable job producing good income. So, don't call my statement arrogant or naive. I speak from experience.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...


You were a COUCH SURFER who dabbled with drugs for a couple years.

I am a person with a debilitating mental illness who, without Medicare, would be terminally homeless, and was homeless - as in sleeping under underpasses - after a psychotic breakdown resulting from, in part to, inadequate access to healthcare.

Forgive me for my lack of sympathy.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

unpopular said:
			
		

> ALL RIGHT! Now let's get some popcorn!
> 
> Ok Aaron. Why is it that for some people the choices we make have less or more impact than others? Why is it you don't see many homeless teens in wealthy neighborhoods?
> 
> Are you really telling me that a 23 year old kid addicted to alcohol from a poor family has an equal chance of obtaining treatment as a 23 year old from a wealthy neighborhood? Which of these two kids are more likely to have health insurance? Which of the se two kid's parents are more likely to have the resources to pay for treatment? Which of these two kids are more likely to have parents who can support him financially?
> 
> And what about mental illness? Perhaps you don't realize it, but there is a wait-list usually 12+ months in major cities. The poor spend this time on the streets, often allowing their health to deteriorate to the point that they are incapable of even knowing that they had applied in the first place. Where do you think wealthy people stay during this time period.
> 
> The same goes for social security applications, so it's not just a matter of "staying on meds" because despite the truth is there are three month wait lists for public psychiatrists - without medicare benefits, these people have no access to the healthcare which they need to stay stable. Again within that time period conditions often worsen to the point that they couldn't maintain a home even if they had one.
> 
> So put down your iPhone 4S and look out your window. You're entitled to anything by any virtue. Nobody is.



Man, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I don't come from a "wealthy" family, and I have gone most of my life without health insurance. In fact, I don't have health insurance right now. 

See, your assumption is that all homeless people are mentally ill, or suffer from some terminal illness. This isn't the case. Not only was I involved with this lifestyle at one time, my office is also located right down the street from the homeless mission in Nashville. I see and interact with homeless people on a day to say basis. I cannot express to you in a way that you could possibly fathom, how many times we pick up trash from around this building and find crack pipes and needles.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## Ernicus

AaronLLockhart said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad times have came on me, when I was 18-21, I was in similar shoes. I was a drug addict and making my way through life as a stay in with my friends and their homes. Pretty much every night I switched locations.
Click to expand...


So......you were homeless.  Couch hopping is homeless dude, just sayin.

I too was living in my car for a while a few years ago when bad times fell on me...and not by choice.  Where choice came in was my choice in doing something about my situation.  And I did.  Sometimes it is not about choice.  Those who remain homeless for years and years and are a drain on society..sure...that's a different story, but you summed it all up in one arrogant statement saying they are that way because they chose to be.

What you call hard times is probably nothing but a cake walk to another in harder times.  It's all relative.   Your statement was arrogant so I'll say what I want.


----------



## Ysarex

AaronLLockhart said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO.  wow.  The arrogance of youth.  I normally don't enter into moral debates on here, but whew...buddy..I hope bad times never fall on you.  That's all I have to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bad times have came on me, when I was 18-21, I was in similar shoes. I was a drug addict and making my way through life as a stay in with my friends and their homes. Pretty much every night I switched locations. Eventually my friends got sick of it and patience was wearing thin.
> 
> I CHOSE to do something about it. Now I'm going on 29 years old, I have my own place, a car, a family, and a nice stable job producing good income. So, don't call my statement arrogant or naive. I speak from experience.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...



In your case it was the result of choices you made, but you made a blanket statement and projected your experience on all homeless Americans. Glad you're doing better, but the truth is guiltless misfortune does fall upon many including here in America. Your generalization is very wrong.

My personal experience: I lived for 6 years in a homeless shelter (by choice), and I've stayed involved for over 20 years. We take care of lots of "guilty" drug addicts and drunks, but if I had to identify the #1 American homeless person that I have consistently seen for over twenty years it would be an older woman who spent a lifetime raising a family and as such had little or no work experience and then when she was old and used up and had for a decade since been abandoned by her bleep bleepin' bleep husband, she is then discarded by her children -- jobless, nearly unemployable, lost her home, then living out of her car, sweeping the floor at McDonalds and finally at the door of our shelter. Her bad choice was to marry a bum and devote her life to raising her children. She is the real face of homelessness in America.

Joe


----------



## AaronLLockhart

unpopular said:
			
		

> You were a COUCH SURFER who dabbled with drugs for a couple years.
> 
> I am a person with a debilitating mental illness who, without Medicare, would be terminally homeless, and was homeless - as in sleeping under underpasses - after a psychotic breakdown resulting from, in part to, inadequate access to healthcare.
> 
> Forgive me for my lack of sympathy.



Inadequate access to healthcare? You are joking. I also suffer from a couple of mental illness as well. Ranging from dysthymia to bi-polar disorder, all of which I take medication for on a daily basis, and pay for WITHOUT health insurance.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## unpopular

AaronLLockhart said:


> Man, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. I don't come from a "wealthy" family, and I have gone most of my life without health insurance. In fact, I don't have health insurance right now.
> 
> See, your assumption is that all homeless people are mentally ill, or suffer from some terminal illness. This isn't the case. Not only was I involved with this lifestyle at one time, my office is also located right down the street from the homeless mission in Nashville. I see and interact with homeless people on a day to say basis. I cannot express to you in a way that you could possibly fathom, how many times we pick up trash from around this building and find crack pipes and needles.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S



Assumption? You're the one that said it's all about 'choice'. Statistics indicate that the overwhelming number of homeless have a serious mental illness. If you looked at me at that time you probably wouldn't have seen me as a person with a mental illness. You might have just assumed I was on drugs or something. I didn't walk around talking to myself.

But i made no such assumption that the homeless were all mentally ill, or even drug addicts, only pointing out that the choices we make do not affect us equally, and that often monetary background has a clear advantage.

We all make poor decisions, but the results of those decisions are not equal in impact.


----------



## Ernicus

AaronLLockhart said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were a COUCH SURFER who dabbled with drugs for a couple years.
> 
> I am a person with a debilitating mental illness who, without Medicare, would be terminally homeless, and was homeless - as in sleeping under underpasses - after a psychotic breakdown resulting from, in part to, inadequate access to healthcare.
> 
> Forgive me for my lack of sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inadequate access to healthcare? You are joking. I also suffer from a couple of mental illness as well. Ranging from dysthymia to bi-polar disorder, all of which I take medication for on a daily basis, and pay for WITHOUT health insurance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...


Sellin lots of drugs to pay for your meds?   I know for a fact that bi polar meds are not cheap, aside from lithium which is very cheap...nearly 15-20 bucks a month.  Seroquel alone is 786 dollars a bottle without insurance, and on a different rant, is why it's so often prescribed, it's **** for treatment but insurance companies make a killing.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

Ernicus said:
			
		

> Sellin lots of drugs to pay for your meds?   I know for a fact that bi polar meds are not cheap, aside from lithium which is very cheap...nearly 15-20 bucks a month.  Seroquel alone is 786 dollars a bottle without insurance, and on a different rant, is why it's so often prescribed, it's **** for treatment but insurance companies make a killing.



As a matter of fact, no. I don't do anything unethical to achieve money. I am the general manager of a manufacturing facility, I do graphic and web design on the side, along with buying and selling consumer electronics. I don't even drink.

And you are right, my meds are EXTREMELY expensive. If I had health insurance, I would definitely drive a nicer car.


Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## unpopular

AaronLLockhart said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were a COUCH SURFER who dabbled with drugs for a couple years.
> 
> I am a person with a debilitating mental illness who, without Medicare, would be terminally homeless, and was homeless - as in sleeping under underpasses - after a psychotic breakdown resulting from, in part to, inadequate access to healthcare.
> 
> Forgive me for my lack of sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inadequate access to healthcare? You are joking. I also suffer from a couple of mental illness as well. Ranging from dysthymia to bi-polar disorder, all of which I take medication for on a daily basis, and pay for WITHOUT health insurance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...


Are you seriously comparing dysthymia with schizophrenia and schizoaffective?


----------



## unpopular

Ernicus said:


> AaronLLockhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were a COUCH SURFER who dabbled with drugs for a couple years.
> 
> I am a person with a debilitating mental illness who, without Medicare, would be terminally homeless, and was homeless - as in sleeping under underpasses - after a psychotic breakdown resulting from, in part to, inadequate access to healthcare.
> 
> Forgive me for my lack of sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inadequate access to healthcare? You are joking. I also suffer from a couple of mental illness as well. Ranging from dysthymia to bi-polar disorder, all of which I take medication for on a daily basis, and pay for WITHOUT health insurance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sellin lots of drugs to pay for your meds?   I know for a fact that bi polar meds are not cheap, aside from lithium which is very cheap...nearly 15-20 bucks a month.  Seroquel alone is 786 dollars a bottle without insurance, and on a different rant, is why it's so often prescribed, it's **** for treatment but insurance companies make a killing.
Click to expand...


Actually many of these drugs are now generic. Valproate costs about $25/month ... still, kind of hard to spange for that, especially if you don't have a prescribing physician.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

unpopular said:
			
		

> Are you seriously comparing dysthymia with schizophrenia and schizoaffective?



If you are schizo to a point you are not a productive member of society, you need to go to state awarded treatment. Think the waiting list is too long? Simple, go the emergency room and tell them that you are suicidal, and they will have a bed ready for you in the mental ward that night.
The next day they ship you to the state institution. At least that's how it works here.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## NE-KID

Besides the homeless drama going back and forth...Now back to the photograph subject in question I like it.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

unpopular said:
			
		

> Actually many of these drugs are now generic. Valproate costs about $25/month ... still, kind of hard to spange for that, especially if you don't have a prescribing physician.



Shoot, tell me how to convince my dr to go that route. I spend approx $450 per month on my meds.

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## Ernicus

AaronLLockhart said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sellin lots of drugs to pay for your meds?   I know for a fact that bi polar meds are not cheap, aside from lithium which is very cheap...nearly 15-20 bucks a month.  Seroquel alone is 786 dollars a bottle without insurance, and on a different rant, is why it's so often prescribed, it's **** for treatment but insurance companies make a killing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, no. I don't do anything unethical to achieve money. I am the general manager of a manufacturing facility, I do graphic and web design on the side, along with buying and selling consumer electronics. I don't even drink.
> 
> And you are right, my meds are EXTREMELY expensive. If I had health insurance, I would definitely drive a nicer car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...


I was just adding some sarcasm for fun, I never judge a person and don't really care what they do for money.  Be it handy's in the parking lot at night, or running a company...how people earn their living is none of my concern.  ;-)


----------



## Ernicus

AaronLLockhart said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually many of these drugs are now generic. Valproate costs about $25/month ... still, kind of hard to spange for that, especially if you don't have a prescribing physician.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shoot, tell me how to convince my dr to go that route. I spend approx $450 per month on my meds.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S
Click to expand...


find a better physician.  There are many who don't wanna deal with people without insurance, but there are those who truly want to help people and will prescribe the generics and in expensive drugs without affecting quality of treatment.  Just gotta fine 'em.  thats the hard part.


----------



## unpopular

Aaron - it's the generic for depakote. You should inquire about it, it's very effective for a lot of people - i'm kind of surprised that he didn't since you don't have insurance. PM me if you want to talk droogz.


----------



## unpopular

AaronLLockhart said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously comparing dysthymia with schizophrenia and schizoaffective?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are schizo to a point you are not a productive member of society, you need to go to state awarded treatment.
Click to expand...


In my case, that's completely untrue and shows a total lack of understanding about the condition and a very limited idea of what a "productive member of society" entails. However, I'm not about to justify my life to you.

--

As for the homeless, that's not how it works at all. Trust me. It just isn't. In an ideal society, that is what we'd be doing. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case at all. Even state facilities are intended to stabilize and release, sometimes into group homes, sometimes just back onto the streets. Even in supportive living, people get disoriented and just wander off.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

Pm sent, now back to the original photo... After telling you all my life story lol

Sent from my iPhone 4S


----------



## unpopular

anyway, yes. the image. it seems flat, especially in the coat area. The content and composition doesn't bother me, though I am not a fan of the black death hole on the left side, but, at the same time I don't like areas without any detail. As I am sure it has been mentioned, the focus is missed, drawing the eye to the coat.

I do not think that this image is unethical, nor would I even if it were a true candid. Taking candid photos of homeless people is OK, provided that the image is not being used in an exploitive way.


----------



## 503Amateur

Haha, well I have just been reminded about how many opinions there are on internet forums, and how eager people are to share. And if I exploited Ray by taking a few pictures after talking with the guy for a long time about his life and mine then I guess I'm going straight to hell, because I would do it again without a thought. I have had plenty of embedded photographers follow me around in Afghanistan waiting for me to get shot at, so they could get a good "action shot", but we all see these in Time and call them good photojournalism, and no one complains of exploitation there when the dude is pulling in serious money from the images he gets.(I was taking this for a project for community college class, no money to be made here, and I paid the guy for helping me out) Ray was more than willing to help me out with this project, so much so that it was nearly impossible to get him to stop posing and get back to what he was doing.  So, I don't really care about if people think this image is ethical, because I know the entire story behind it, and other people are just wasting their breath/keystrokes in typical internet forum fashion-without knowing what they are talking about.  

 Back to the picture, thank you to those who have given your thoughts. Under this bridge was a really hard place to not get some random awkward thing in the background protruding into the picture. In addition to that I was right up against the curb with traffic at my back for most of the time, so I had a little box to work in. I don't have a single verticle shot from this position, so I don't think that I could get him all of the way into the frame with what I was working with.
So, composition seems to be the main complaint in this picture. Would cropping it down to just a headshot of him work better, since I did not get this in a vertical frame? I have seen a lot of people say that the picture looks flat. What would help that?(keewp in mind, I've only been going at the whole photography thing for a little over two months, so I'm a noob in every sense of the word.


I know this image wouldn't have conveyed the story in this one picture, but if it was a part of a longer set, what would be your criticisms about the photo if it were cropped down to this?


----------



## JAC526

AaronLLockhart said:


> I don't understand how ethics has any involvement with this photograph in the first place. Photographing him is no different than photographing a complete stranger. You all say ethics comes into it if he is taking the image to be artsy, on the grounds that the man is homeless. That's hogwash. Photographers take photographs of people all of the time because they are beautiful, yet I don't see anyone calling that exploitation.
> 
> The man is homeless. It's not a disease, and it's not a sickness. He's homeless because of a decision that was made somewhere along in his life. In fact, that same decision may be what's causing him to remain homeless. We are in America, not Africa. Being homeless here isn't a misfortune, it's a choice.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 4S



Wow.  Not really sure how to reply to that one.  Kind of like Republicans wondering why the people of New Orleans didn't just "pack up  their Land Rovers and move on"  when Katrina hit.

So ignorant.


----------



## Alex_B

If you want to transmit a message connecte with this person being homeless, there should be some indication he acutally is. But in the image he seems taken out of context. Also the perspective composition appears a bit awkward, not giving any tension (you caught him looking straight into your camera, almost looking like a police image of a person just arrested  ).

BTW, my avatar images shows a homeless person. Treat them as humans and talk to them normally, and they might be interested in what you do, and even be proud that you want to take an image of them.


----------



## SCraig

503Amateur said:


> Back to the picture, thank you to those who have given your thoughts. Under this bridge was a really hard place to not get some random awkward thing in the background protruding into the picture. In addition to that I was right up against the curb with traffic at my back for most of the time, so I had a little box to work in. I don't have a single verticle shot from this position, so I don't think that I could get him all of the way into the frame with what I was working with.
> So, composition seems to be the main complaint in this picture. Would cropping it down to just a headshot of him work better, since I did not get this in a vertical frame? I have seen a lot of people say that the picture looks flat. What would help that?(keewp in mind, I've only been going at the whole photography thing for a little over two months, so I'm a noob in every sense of the word.


Look at the photograph you posted above.  Specifically his hair in the upper left corner.  There is no separation between his hair and the background.  Same with his right eye.  The pupil of his eye and the white part of his eye on the right completely disappear into his eyebrows.  It is a very high contrast image with no white anywhere in it (look at the histogram).  The eyes are very important in a photograph but his are barely visible  because of the deep shadows and high contrast.  You have the makings of a good photograph here but it needs some work.


----------



## 503Amateur

SCraig- On my monitor(a laptop) I can see the contrast in the hair and eyes just fine, but I got the same issue that you are talking about when I viewed the image on the Macs at school, and it was even worse on a projector. Is there any way to ensure that the picture looks relatively similar over multiple displays, or should I just ease up on the blacks in general?


----------



## Ysarex

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1454


----------



## SCraig

503Amateur said:


> SCraig- On my monitor(a laptop) I can see the contrast in the hair and eyes just fine, but I got the same issue that you are talking about when I viewed the image on the Macs at school, and it was even worse on a projector. Is there any way to ensure that the picture looks relatively similar over multiple displays, or should I just ease up on the blacks in general?


On my monitor (calibrated) I can barely see some difference right on top of his head but the area above his right ear is nothing but solid black.

As Ysarex indicated you can use a colorimeter to calibrate your monitor however laptops are notoriously difficult to calibrate.  Calibration assumes that the light falling on the screen will remain consistent and that cannot be assumed with a laptop.  Where it is placed, the angle of the screen, the angle of the laptop in relation to the lamps, all affect the ambient light falling on the screen.  Your best bet is to do one of two things, both of which require a colorimeter: Either outline a spot on your desk with tape to insure that the laptop stays in the exact same place, and come up with some method to insure that the screen is always angled the same way, or get an external monitor for your laptop.  Once that is done calibrate it and you should have relatively consistent colors.  Again, though, laptop screens are still notoriously difficult to calibrate.

Also, when you save your image insure that the color space is embedded within the image.  Most web images use the standard sRGB color space but there are others.  This assumes that your web browser and operating system are "Color Managed" so that they display colors properly.


----------



## PinkDoor

I love the photo - really, I think it tells a story, its raw, and I love it!


----------



## unpopular

SCraig said:


> We have a rather large homeless population here, and some of them truly are by choice.  One local television news crew interviewed a number of them several years back.  I remember it because one of the people they interviewed had a masters degree in something.  He just decided he was tired of working, didn't want to do it anymore, and would rather live under a bridge.



I swear, you "homefull" people will believe anything a homeless guy says. Let me guess, he was also making $200/day spangeing outside wal-mart? Did it occur to you or the reporter that maybe this guy was full of it? If you've spent any time with the homeless, you'll hear all sorts of tall tales. 

One guy I knew studied magic with Harry Houdini.


----------

