# how important is ventilation??



## wyogirl (Jun 8, 2014)

It sounds like a stupid question...I know this.  But, we have a spare bathroom that we NEVER use.  I was all ready to set up my dark room for black and white developing in there, when I realized it doesn't have an exhaust fan.  Is B/W chemestry really caustic?  Will I die?


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## Designer (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't remember dying when I did mine in a closet.  And there's almost nothing wrong with me.  :meh:


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## manaheim (Jun 8, 2014)

> *What kinds of chemicals am I exposed to when using photographic processing solutions, and how do I minimize exposure?*
> Some photographic processing solutions may fall under the general chemical categories of acids or bases. Most photographic processing solutions are aqueous, and all photographic chemicals are labeled as required by the Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA) and accompanied by a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). You can minimize exposure to any chemicals by following the instructions on the labels and the MSDS. These labels and MSDS not only display the chemical names of the solutions, but also specify potential hazards associated with their use. The warning and precautionary statements also assure safe use and reduced exposure to the chemicals. For example, precautionary statements may be used to ensure that gloves are worn for personal protection from anything that may be harmful if absorbed through the skin; that goggles are worn to protect the eyes from anything that may cause burns; that aprons be used to protect clothing; and that ventilation be operating properly to reduce the possibility of respiratory tract irritation.  See our publication J-98A, Safe Handling of Photographic Processing Chemicals to find out more about chemicals used in photographic processing solutions; publication J-312, Personal Protective Equipment Requirements for Photographic Processing Facilities to find out more about Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), and publication J-314, Indoor Air Quality and Ventilation in Photographic Processing Facilities .



KODAK:FAQhoto Lab Health & Safety

That doesn't make it sound overly dangerous, but...


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## compur (Jun 8, 2014)

I've set up darkrooms in bathrooms and I rigged up exhaust fans that fit in the window (assuming your bathroom has a window). Such fans were commercially manufactured for darkroom use and are "light-tight." At the other end of the room I'd put in a darkroom vent which lets in air but not light. I would think you could find these on eBay,etc for little money these days.

Regular B&W chemistry is not terribly dangerous but some people do have an allergy to some of the ingredients, most commonly metol which is present in many developers.

Besides the chemical considerations it is nice to have a supply of fresh air when working in a darkroom, especially a small one.


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## limr (Jun 8, 2014)

Are you printing or just developing? 

If you are just developing and worried about fumes, once the film is loaded into the tanks (either in the darkroom or a changing bag), then keep the door open for ventilation. The only exposure you'd have to the smell of the chemicals is when you are pouring them in or out of the tank. 

As for printing, I'm not sure. The only time I've wet printed was using Caffenol and that might stink but it's not toxic so I don't even turn on the fan. There must be something wrong with me because I don't even mind the smell.  And fixer just smells like tuna fish but the smell dissipates fairly quickly. But I suppose it depends on how sensitive you are to certain chemicals. No one really likes bleach, for example, and it's good to keep things ventilated, but my mother could be cleaning the bathroom for an hour with a really strong bleach solution and be fine, but I would have a headache within a minute or so.


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## Ysarex (Jun 8, 2014)

Do not trust a word that comes out of the mouth of a manufacturer or retailer! Not one word!

Here's the book: Overexposure: Health Hazards in Photography: Monona Rossol, Susan D. Shaw: 9780960711864: Amazon.com: Books

Get it and read it.

Here's the author of the book: ACTS: health, safety and industrial hygiene for the arts

Joe


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## wyogirl (Jun 8, 2014)

To clarify:
I'll be developing film and printing.  Black and white only.  I'm using Kodak D-76 & Dektol as developers and Illford Rapid Fix for fixer... haven't committed to stop bath but leaning toward that orange stuff Kodak makes, (can't remember the name off hand) or maybe just plain water.
I know that I'm not sensitive to those chemicals as I have used them extensively in the lab at the college.  I feel like they are pretty innocuous because I did all my developing with bare hands and no tongs.

I don't plan on using the room for more than an hour at a time and will have the chemicals covered during non use and the door open.  I can't immagine having more than an hour of time anyway...the three-year-old will be outside knocking as it is.


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## PWhite214 (Jun 8, 2014)

Depending on your attic clearance adding a some ventilation should not be too difficult.  A quick check on EBAY: New Doran A 1212 Darkroom Ventilation Fan | eBay, they sell a ventilation louver.

Phil


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## runnah (Jun 8, 2014)

Very toxic. Prolonged exposure can have negative side effects such as pretentious opinions about film, a strong distaste towards anything digital and most tragically a inclination to purchase and wear berets.

Please be safe.


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## Ysarex (Jun 8, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> To clarify:
> I'll be developing film and printing.  Black and white only.  I'm using Kodak D-76 & Dektol as developers and Illford Rapid Fix for fixer... haven't committed to stop bath but leaning toward that orange stuff Kodak makes, (can't remember the name off hand) or maybe just plain water.
> I know that I'm not sensitive to those chemicals as I have used them extensively in the lab at the college.  I feel like they are pretty innocuous because I did all my developing with bare hands and no tongs.
> 
> I don't plan on using the room for more than an hour at a time and will have the chemicals covered during non use and the door open.  I can't immagine having more than an hour of time anyway...the three-year-old will be outside knocking as it is.



B&W chemistry is more dangerous than you've probably led to believe. The majority of college and university photo labs are NOT SAFE. Children are at far greater risk. Read the book.

Joe


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## Ysarex (Jun 8, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> To clarify:
> I'll be developing film and printing.  Black and white only.  I'm using Kodak D-76 & Dektol as developers and Illford Rapid Fix for fixer... haven't committed to stop bath but leaning toward that orange stuff Kodak makes, (can't remember the name off hand) or maybe just plain water.
> I know that I'm not sensitive to those chemicals as I have used them extensively in the lab at the college.  I feel like they are pretty innocuous because I did all my developing with bare hands and no tongs.
> 
> I don't plan on using the room for more than an hour at a time and will have the chemicals covered during non use and the door open.  I can't immagine having more than an hour of time anyway...the three-year-old will be outside knocking as it is.



In 1839 Louis Daguerre introduced the world to Photography. The Daguerreotype process required the photographer to hold the exposed plate at a 45 degree angle over a tin of heated Mercury. Photographers on day one began poisoning themselves and polluting the environment. Kodak, Illford, Agfa et al. spent $$$$$ thereafter downplaying the dangers of their products.

In the 1970's I sold industrial photo equipment including commercial darkroom equipment and I began learning about proper ventilation in commercial labs. In the mid 80's I took a job at a college and was told by the department chair, "good news, we're spending $17,000.00 to add ventilation to the photo lab this year." I was able to stop the work and make some changes to the system they were installing. The engineering firm that did the plans didn't know what they were doing and in fact they were making the lab more dangerous. I wasn't able to fully correct the errors but did manage to force some critical adjustments. In the 90's I started talking to Monona Rossol. Most college and university photo labs are NOT SAFE. Thankfully most of the students get short-term exposure. Make your school subscribe to the ACTS newsletter: ACTS: arts and theater safety newsletter Read it.

I watched two of my friends die from lymphoma before they reached the age of 50. They worked full-time at other college photo labs. Can't prove the cancer was related of course but I saw both those labs and I reported one of them as highly toxic.

You have a 3 year old in the house.

Read the book: Overexposure: Health Hazards in Photography: Monona Rossol, Susan D. Shaw: 9780960711864: Amazon.com: Books

Joe


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## webestang64 (Jun 9, 2014)

Vent that darkroom!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've worked in photo labs since 1985.....it was not for venting the labs I work(ed) in, I'd be dead.


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## terri (Jun 9, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> To clarify:
> I'll be developing film and printing.  Black and white only.  I'm using Kodak D-76 & Dektol as developers and Illford Rapid Fix for fixer... haven't committed to stop bath but leaning toward that orange stuff Kodak makes, (can't remember the name off hand) or maybe just plain water.
> I know that I'm not sensitive to those chemicals as I have used them extensively in the lab at the college.  I feel like they are pretty innocuous because I did all my developing with bare hands and no tongs.
> 
> I don't plan on using the room for more than an hour at a time and will have the chemicals covered during non use and the door open.  I can't immagine having more than an hour of time anyway...the three-year-old will be outside knocking as it is.



If at all possible, investigate the installation of a fan that will vent to the outside.  Usually any bathroom that doesn't have an overhead vent has a window; those are building specifications.  A fan would be the best solution.   If it is simply not doable, stick to your rule about not being in there more than an hour at a time, and crack that window (top & bottom) to air it out.   

When you say you "will have the chemicals covered during non use and the door open," can you clarify?    If you mean keeping the mixed chemistry tightly capped off in appropriate jugs, that's fine.   If you mean leaving mixed chemistry in open trays covered with plastic wrap until you get back in there, that's not so fine.   Dump your trays when you're done and rinse them thoroughly.  

I appreciate Joe's warnings, but also consider that these chemicals have been tested/re-tested, worked with by photographers AND chemists alike, over many, many decades.   Clearly ventilation is an important consideration for a darkroom.   We also have numerous household detergents, cleaners, and sprays that contain ye olde skull & crossbone warnings on the back about prolonged inhalation but can be handled safely.   

Oh, and should you ever get into toning your B&W prints, ventilation becomes even _more_ important.   You must do it in a well-ventilated area or even outside.


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## runnah (Jun 9, 2014)

Developing, Not Even Once!


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## limr (Jun 9, 2014)

Or you can always use Caffenol


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 9, 2014)

I like the smell of the chemistry but I don't think I could tolerate it cooped up in a closed bathroom. I'd probably look into the louvered vents as suggested here. I've always used tongs (although have gotten my fingers/hand in the fixer particularly and rinse right away then stop and use soap and water) and have worn rubber gloves depending on what I was doing. 

I've used a darkroom at a local university and they seemed to always have the ventilation running anytime I went in there (and the AC in the summer when I used it the most). I'd be up there maybe a couple of hours at a time, but that included going in and out to the classroom space to use the lightbox, squeegee and put prints on the drying rack, etc. (stopping to chat w/someone in one of the studios on the lower floor, getting a soft drink, etc. etc.).

I was thinking I don't know that I'd let a 3 year old in there til it had been open and aired out for some time after you use it, but I don't know how long that would need to be or what precautions might be necessary related to air quality. 

I do know from my work in early intervention that in the city where I've worked there were documented learning problems among children at a particular school that was in an industrial area where air quality has been a concern (they since finally closed the school) so it seems that poor air quality can be detrimental to younger children. I also have worked with kids with lead poisoning (the children were showing delays in development) and it's known to cause brain damage - the concern with young children is due to their bodies being smaller than adults they are more affected by ingesting the same lead/breathing the same polluted air as adults in the family and so have more sensitivity to it. I don't know what impact fumes from photo chemistry might potentially have on a young child.

edit - Reread that this is an extra bathroom that you don't regularly use, so that might make for less of a concern and be easier to keep off limits as needed. But I'd still look into a fan/vent etc.


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## wyogirl (Jun 9, 2014)

Thanks all for the tips.  Joe, I ordered the book, it should be here soon.  I'm going to look into the logistics of installing an exhaust fan in the ceiling that will vent to the attic/outside.  We do have central a/c so there will be fresh air coming in, I just need to get the fumes out.  And Terri- no I do not plan on having trays filled with chemicals left out.... even though the room will be locked, I don't want to risk my son getting into it.  I will have tightly capped bottles though.

I guess until then, I will just have to do my developing at night with the window cracked.


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## Ysarex (Jun 9, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> Thanks all for the tips.  Joe, I ordered the book, it should be here soon.



:thumbup: After you read it take it to school.



wyogirl said:


> I'm going to look into the logistics of installing an exhaust fan in the ceiling that will vent to the attic/outside.



:thumbup:


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## Niner (Aug 6, 2014)

This string brings to mind my experience thirty years ago.  I was enlarging and printing b&w photos in a small bathroom in my house that did have a vent.  I used that bath because it didn't have a window and was easy to keep dark.  I was making 11x14 and 8x10 prints using trays in a bath tub. I was doing a lot of them for a show.

After making prints regularly over a few weeks I developed a sore throat.  I went to an eye, ear, nose and throat doctor.  He examined my throat and got all excited about what he saw.  He wanted to know if I smoked.  At the time I did and said so.  He said , "your throat looks just like it looks just before cancer shows up".   I quit smoking right away.   Then.... some time later I read an article warning that breathing chemical fumes from printing could cause severe sore throat.   Then it dawned on me what had happened.   The only good thing about this story is .... I gave up smoking cigarettes.


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## timor (Aug 9, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> It sounds like a stupid question...I know this.  But, we have a spare bathroom that we NEVER use.  I was all ready to set up my dark room for black and white developing in there, when I realized it doesn't have an exhaust fan.  Is B/W chemestry really caustic?  Will I die?


 Heh.. :???:. Die ? From what ? Car accident ? B&W chemistry maybe smells not like air deodoriser, but is not caustic. As long as you don't dip you fingers constantly in paper developer with metol you'll be alright. Metol can cause skin allergy, but it didn't happened to my for the past 35 years. I live despite lack of ventilation in any of my simple darkrooms. If you think you will sit in the darkroom for solid  hours daily you are mistaking.


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## unpopular (Aug 17, 2014)

^^ or you're just sloppy with your fixer, it gets pretty noxious. Dangerous? IDK, sort of doubt it.

B/W Chemistry is relatively caustic at stock solution. I think they ship Stop bath at 30% Acetic Acid, which will burn through your bathtub - in about five year's time. All developers are very caustic, especially in powder form, and likely carcinogens. But the dangers are more probably more physical than aerial. It's probably a good idea to wear gloves and use a mask when mixing powder.

You can add simple ventilation pretty easy and inexpensively. Hydroponic supply shops will have good options that can be attached to flexible ducts. One darkroom I worked in just used an air conditioning unit, and never felt it wasn't sufficient.

But as for health hazards, when I was a kid I used to just clean up my hands? with metabisulfite when working with sodium dichromate solutions. Can't guarantee that holes aren't forming in my bones (or was that pyrogallol, another very toxic photo chemical I didn't use as carefully as I should have), but I'm not dead either. Oh, to be 18 again.


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## maris (Aug 17, 2014)

I do several hundred hours of black and white darkroom work a year. I started in 1968. I've never worked in a ventilated darkroom, airconditioned yes ventilated no, with absolutely no discomfort or ill effects ever. How? I never touch chemistry or need to. All black and white papers are handled with tongs (practice makes for dexterity) from tray to tray. Film development happens in tanks where chemistry travels from bottles to jugs to tanks and back to bottles without pouring any of it on myself. All this not because I'm scared of poisoning but because I don't want contaminated fingers touching film and paper and causing marks.

Aside from water there are no volatiles in my darkroom. Ordinary developers, Dektol and D76, give off no fumes. My odourless stop bath gives off no fumes. My odourless fixer gives off no fumes. There is nothing in particular for a ventilation system to do.

My profession background includes analytical chemistry and laboratory studies of chemically originated biological toxicity. I can say confidently that ordinary (not pyro, not cyanide, etc) photo-chemistry, when handled mindfully, is much less dangerous than household bleach, washing powder, boiling water, whisky and many other things that people (that includes children) may encounter in ordinary households.

Overexposure: Health Hazards in Photography: Monona Rossol, Susan D. Shaw: 9780960711864: Amazon.com: Books is a bit of a read but much of it is theoretically based alarmism cobbled together from notes out of chemistry books. Monona Rossol is not an unbiassed scientist. She has made a lifetime career out of the chemical hazard message. Read her many books with an open but alert mind.


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