# Water for mixing Chemistry



## BubbaBear (Sep 19, 2015)

It's been a long time since I was in a darkroom and way back then I used tap water. But reading everything today says not to use it. I was planning on using distilled from the grocery. Is that OK? And what about heating it for mixing.My darkroom is in the basement so I have no stove nearby. I was thinking about buying a new coffeepot to use for heating water. Then adjusting the water as necessary. How does this sound?


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## 480sparky (Sep 19, 2015)

It depends on your water supply.  I just use tap water for chemicals and only use distilled with PhotoFlo for the final rinse.


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## limr (Sep 19, 2015)

I use tap water for all the steps and when I remember to get it, I'll use distilled for the final rinse. As for heating the water, what developer are you using? Is this black and white or C41? If you're using distilled, an electric kettle seems more practical than a coffee maker. And if you're using tap water, just mix the hot and cold until you reach the temperature you want.

I've generally found it more of an issue to cool down the water if I overshoot the temperature by a few degrees (my developer is Caffenol at 68F). An ice cube or two usually does the trick.

Edit: Agree with Sparky - it depends on the composition of your water. Not sure what exactly are the relative effects of, say, hard vs soft water.


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## BubbaBear (Sep 19, 2015)

I've been reading a lot and watching YouTubes. D-76 all recommend distilled water and says it needs to be a hot water.  I have hot tap water that high. And a good filter. Can I use it instead of distilled? I agree an electric kettle would be better than a coffeepot.


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## limr (Sep 19, 2015)

Have you seen this? http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

The temperature chart is on the 3rd page. It says that the temperature is generally between 65-75F (18-24C) and that effects how long you develop. It's really not that hot - more like room temperature. 

Color developing requires hotter water.

I'm sure filtered water would be fine.


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## timor (Sep 19, 2015)

Warm the water in microwave. And then mix with cold to needed temperature. To mix famous D76 I would use distilled water but why would you use D76 ? Tmax dev. is much better developer which you can use with normal tap water. I don't use photoflo, it is only good if you in the middle of Africa and have to use river water. Just making fun. Film development is an art, it takes time to master it. Factory recommendation should be taken only as an starting point, not as the only right way. Rather the opposite. That's the beauty of b&w film, everyone has to experience it for himself. It is not easy, that's why digital is such a blessing.


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## BubbaBear (Sep 20, 2015)

I was buying a water mixing valve from someone closing a darkroom and the rest of the darkroom came with it including a good supply of D-76.


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## BubbaBear (Sep 20, 2015)

limr, do you know where  I can get a chart that compares Kodak films to Ilford films?  I was looking at the chart for processing times and wondering how to transfer it to Ilford.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2015)

BubbaBear said:


> limr, do you know where  I can get a chart that compares Kodak films to Ilford films?  I was looking at the chart for processing times and wondering how to transfer it to Ilford.



You'd probably get a better answer to this on the APUG forum.  As for using various developer and film combinations, try the Massive Development Chart.



timor said:


> ...... Factory recommendation should be taken only as an starting point, not as the only right way...........



Can we start a "Quote of the Month" contest?  I'll nominate this.


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## limr (Sep 20, 2015)

There's also the Comprehensive Development Chart: The Comprehensive Dev Chart | Darkroom Solutions

Although, they seem to have redesigned the site since I was there last and it does not seem to want to give many developing choices for 120 film   That's kind of annoying. I'm not sure if they've not finished setting it up, or if you have to just put in 135 as the size just to get the full list of developers. It will still get you the developing time.

Both websites give a developing time of 7.5 minutes for stock dilution and developing HP5+ in D-76 at box speed (400 ISO), and that will be the time for 35mm or 120 or sheet.

D-76 is a standard developer and good to start with. Ultimately there might be other developers that you'll like better, but first figure out what you want to achieve, and if it turns out D-76 doesn't suit that, then try others. But to start off with, I say make it as simple as possible to get re-acclimated to the darkroom.

Getting excited to see some pictures


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## timor (Sep 20, 2015)

480sparky said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > ...... Factory recommendation should be taken only as an starting point, not as the only right way...........
> ...


That's funny, but as a quote is not mine, I was born waaay to late to figure out such a smart thing on my own.


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## BubbaBear (Sep 20, 2015)

Sparky, the Massive Developement Chart looks like what I need. But I have two questions. What are the reasons for choosing various dilutions? Second I am puzzled by the ISO choices. The film chosen is a certain ISO.  Why these other choices?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2015)

BubbaBear said:


> Sparky, the Massive Developement Chart looks like what I need. But I have two questions. What are the reasons for choosing various dilutions? Second I am puzzled by the ISO choices. The film chosen is a certain ISO.  Why these other choices?



Different solutions result in different results in things like film grain, tonality, dynamic range, etc.

You can intentionally over- or under-expose film to alter the range of tones in the negative.  This is common when using the Zone System.  For instance, for very dull, flat scenes, one would underexpose and overdevelop the film to increase the contrast.


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## timor (Sep 20, 2015)

Plus for different developers effective ISO might be different. There are developers like D76 slowing down the film, others, less solvant developers make film apparently faster.


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## BubbaBear (Sep 20, 2015)

Sparky, I'm sorry but I don't completely understand about the different ISO's.  There are a whole bunch of different ones for the same film. Are these development times for those who intentionally shoot the film at a different ISO and therefore a different development time? I am not clear.  Take a look at Ilford Delta 100 Pro for example.  What would I follow if I were doing it all as an average no special effects roll.


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## timor (Sep 20, 2015)

Why don't you start with Ilford PDF about Delta 100 ?
You will find there exact info for Exposure Index of 50, 100 and 200.
That is better than confusing mumbo jumbo of the MDC.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2015)

BubbaBear said:


> Sparky, I'm sorry but I don't completely understand about the different ISO's.  There are a whole bunch of different ones for the same film. Are these development times for those who intentionally shoot the film at a different ISO and therefore a different development time? I am not clear.  Take a look at Ilford Delta 100 Pro for example.  What would I follow if I were doing it all as an average no special effects roll.



A given film might be 'rated' by the manufacturer at, say, ISO 100, but there's no law that says you _have _to expose the film at ISO 100.  You're free to rate it at 25, 64, 125, 80, 50, 120, 320 or even 400 if you wish.  Using ISO 100 is the manufacturer's _suggested starting point_.

If you find exposing it at ISO 100 tends to overexpose your images given your gear, your metering & exposure techniques, all in combination with your processing the film (time, temp, developer, mix ratio, agitation etc), you would want to increase _your rating of the film_ to 125, 164 or even 200 in order to get better results.

On the other hand, if you consistently get 'thin' (underexposed) negs, you'd want to drop your rating of the film to 80, 64 or even 50, whichever gives you the results you want.


Shooting film is a lot like cooking.  You might find a great recipe for something you like to eat, but that's far the the ONLY way to prepare that particular dish.  You're free to change the temperature, time, seasonings, etc. To suit your palate.  The film manufacturers give you their suggested recipes, but there's no law broken if you alter it.


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## timor (Sep 20, 2015)

Nice comparison to cooking. Yes, Darkroom Cookbook by S. Anchell is a good read. Now even freely available (third edition) on the net. (Not sure of legality of that, thus no link)


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## BubbaBear (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks all. I'm getting the idea. I am about to step into a darkroom for the first time in forty years and I am very excited. It may be modest to some but I have built the darkroom of my dreams and it is almost finished. Four foot darkroom sink with fifteen feet of countertop space. Electric  outlet where I need them with switched safelights, two enlargers and a whole load of darkroom stuff that came as a package deal with the water valve I bought. I am excited about getting the final touches done so I can actually use it. And that will hopefully be this next week!


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## timor (Sep 20, 2015)

Good luck !!


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## limr (Sep 20, 2015)

BubbaBear said:


> Thanks all. I'm getting the idea. I am about to step into a darkroom for the first time in forty years and I am very excited. It may be modest to some but I have built the darkroom of my dreams and it is almost finished. Four foot darkroom sink with fifteen feet of countertop space. Electric  outlet where I need them with switched safelights, two enlargers and a whole load of darkroom stuff that came as a package deal with the water valve I bought. I am excited about getting the final touches done so I can actually use it. And that will hopefully be this next week!



And we're excited for you!  Keep us updated!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2015)

BubbaBear said:


> Thanks all. I'm getting the idea. I am about to step into a darkroom for the first time in forty years and I am very excited. It may be modest to some but I have built the darkroom of my dreams and it is almost finished. Four foot darkroom sink with fifteen feet of countertop space. Electric  outlet where I need them with switched safelights, two enlargers and a whole load of darkroom stuff that came as a package deal with the water valve I bought. I am excited about getting the final touches done so I can actually use it. And that will hopefully be this next week!



Of course, we'll demand the requisite photos..........


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## BubbaBear (Oct 7, 2015)

Well I have been away from the forum for a couple of weeks with some personal issues. The darkroom is finished with a few loose ends to finish up. I'm quickly learning what I should have done differently and what has to be changed.


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