# Regarding Supposed TPF Bullies and Abuse Towards Newbies



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

While I may be chastised for linking to this thread: I am deleting my own account I feel that a discussion is in need.

There have been a couple threads/posts other than that one indicating an abusive and clique-ish nature here at TPF.  I've been going through a few of the threads started by newbies and cannot find any real abuse.  I have found some sarcastic remarks that are irrelevant to the OP (I'm very guilty of doing that and I apologize) but I have found absolutely no indication of any abusive language.  In my mind, abusive language would be along the lines of:  "Hey there, nice photo, are you a monkey?  Certainly only a monkey could sling poo that looks as good as that photo.", "Tell you what, sell your camera, buy a gun and go shoot yourself you lame duck.", "I didn't realize such a fata** could get their fat fingers into a position to take a photo."

I've seen posts telling people to re-think their plan of starting a business taking photos until they know how to take photos properly.  I don't see how brute honesty is abusive when it is shown that the OP has no business sense and they have fooled themselves into believing that a business will thrive by just taking photos.  

I tell people to grow a thick skin, not to harden themselves against abuse (which again I have not seen yet, I haven't gone through all the threads) but to harden themselves for the inevitable honest and insightful critique that may bruise their ego.

I don't want to turn this discussion into a war but I would like to do some discovery with these supposed abusive posts.  As long as a mod doesn't lock this thread for one reason or another, would you be so kind to link to a thread where real abuse is apparent so that we can report it?  I attempt to be kind but I do have a tendency to either hijack threads with my nonsense or to make sarcastic replies to others' sarcastic replies.  Again, I apologize for that.


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## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

This so called "abuse" has done nothing but help me become a better photographer.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> This so called "abuse" has done nothing but help me become a better photographer.



Cool! I will be more than happy to "help" with that..lol! You... Photographer, you! Shooter of glass penguins!


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## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> > This so called "abuse" has done nothing but help me become a better photographer.
> ...



They are snowmen...fvcking get it right Charlie!


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## TheFantasticG (Dec 18, 2012)

I thought accounts on here couldn't be deleted but simply let become inactive...?


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## jwbryson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

I joined this forum in April 2011, which is just a few months shy of 2 years ago.  I posted my favorite photograph of my daughter and sat back and waited to be lauded for my genius!   I got shredded, and my immediate response to the person was to shred them back with some diatribe about him being abused by his father or some other such nonsense.  I distinctly remember Bitter's response to my post: "Another NewB bites the dust."  I was crestfallen because I was certain that I was pure genius.  The shredder came back to me with "what else can I say besides your photographs suck?"  I was not a happy camper.

But, here I am 2 years later, a _*MUCH*_ better photographer for sticking around and learning something and what do you know, but I have actually made friends with some of the people on this forum.  I am very happy that I stuck around. For those of you who join this forum and have thin skin, my message is as follows:  Suck it up, read and listed with your ears open, ask questions and post photos.  Learn and you will enjoy the forum.  But you gotta have thick skin.

'Nuff said.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> cgipson1 said:
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> > JAC526 said:
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That is my point.. your image (avatar) is of such "small" proportions.. that I can't tell the difference with my old, failing eyes... so that makes it your fault!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I joined this forum in April 2011, which is just a few months shy of 2 years ago.  I posted my favorite photograph of my daughter and sat back and waited to be lauded for my genius!   I got shredded, and my immediate response to the person was to shred them back with some diatribe about him being abused by his father or some other such nonsense.  I distinctly remember Bitter's response to my post: "Another NewB bites the dust."  I was crestfallen because I was certain that I was pure genius.  The shredder came back to me with "what else can I say besides your photographs suck?"  I was not a happy camper.
> 
> But, here I am 2 years later, a _*MUCH*_ better photographer for sticking around and learning something and what do you know, but I have actually made friends with some of the people on this forum.  I am very happy that I stuck around. For those of you who join this forum and have thin skin, my message is as follows:  Suck it up, read and listed with your ears open, ask questions and post photos.  Learn and you will enjoy the forum.  But you gotta have thick skin.
> 
> 'Nuff said.



I agree.. your photos do suck much less than they used to! :greenpbl: (yea.. JOKING!)


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## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> JAC526 said:
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> 
> > cgipson1 said:
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First off...blame TPF.  Its as large as they'll let me upload.  Second, there is this thing called an optometrist.  He/she can help you with your old ass eyes.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I like the humor like anyone else but there is a very real seriousness to this issue.  If there really are abusive members beating up newbies, they need to be reported and exposed.  I love TPF and don't want its named tarnished because someone cannot control their language.  This doesn't mean we sugar-coat anything but honesty and abuse are separate.  Telling someone their photo isn't good and then describing what they could do to improve the image is not the same as the abusive person who says that the photos suck and says nothing else (THAT is abusive).  You can choose the words you use.  Instead of saying a photo sucks, say a photo isn't working...

Make light of it all you want but that's what wrong with the whole world.  We cover up abuse and bullying through mocking, laughter, sweeping it up under rugs and I will not stand here at this place and let it go downhill because people cannot take abuse seriously.  There's a difference between a towel slap between friends and a punch in the face of someone new here.  So seriously, where is the abusive threads?  I've yet to see any.

Almost a whole page and no real discussion into this problem.  Is that not an indication of something to anyone else?


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## Mully (Dec 18, 2012)

It is sort of like driving around and someone flips you the bird....30 years ago I would have followed that person to the moon and back....... today I just shrug it off, not worth it.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> cgipson1 said:
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> > JAC526 said:
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A good photographer never blames his equipment, or his forum!      :greenpbl:    


:hug::


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## squirrels (Dec 18, 2012)

I am a newb who just posted my first photos, and I thought it would be worse. I have to say everyone was surprisingly polite.
C


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

squirrels said:


> I am a newb who just posted my first photos, and I thought it would be worse. I have to say everyone was surprisingly polite.
> C



I see you haven't met me yet! :thumbdown: 










  :x !


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## e.rose (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:
			
		

> This so called "abuse" has done nothing but help me become a better photographer.



Amen JAC.  Same goes for me.  I welcome it


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you squirrels.  I'm thinking there is no real abuse but I can definitely see there is a lack of desire to get to the bottom of this alleged abuse going on.  Growing a thick skin is meant for critiques that may bruise the ego (like jwbryson1 mentioned) not to hide away abuse and torment.  I haven't seen any abuse yet.  If there is something going on, do we not all as a community have a duty to stop it?  Or do we just make jokes about it and go off on tangents?


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## e.rose (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I like the humor like anyone else but there is a very real seriousness to this issue.  If there really are abusive members beating up newbies, they need to be reported and exposed.  I love TPF and don't want its named tarnished because someone cannot control their language.  This doesn't mean we sugar-coat anything but honesty and abuse are separate.  Telling someone their photo isn't good and then describing what they could do to improve the image is not the same as the abusive person who says that the photos suck and says nothing else (THAT is abusive).  You can choose the words you use.  Instead of saying a photo sucks, say a photo isn't working...
> 
> Make light of it all you want but that's what wrong with the whole world.  We cover up this abuse through mocking, laughter, sweeping it up under rugs and I will not stand here at this place and let it go downhill because people cannot take abuse seriously.  There's a difference between a towel slap between friends and a punch in the face of someone new here.
> 
> Almost a whole page and no real discussion into this problem.  Is that not an indication of something to anyone else?



That's because there's no abuse.  Just people who can't take criticism.

If there were really "abusers" the mods do a good enough job banning them.  The real thread that needs to be started is "How to take criticism when you already think you're a rockstar photographer"


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> squirrels said:
> 
> 
> > I am a newb who just posted my first photos, and I thought it would be worse. I have to say everyone was surprisingly polite.
> ...



I like Squirrels!!!!!!!!      <deep fried with gravy!> YUM!               



<kidding!>


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## panblue (Dec 18, 2012)

Remember Yahoo Messenger chatrooms, Late 1990s ?  The ones dedicated to insults LOL. This place is at worst a bit snooty/bitchy in comparison. The straight-up snark of 4chan DIY? One of my favourite webchannels ever...ingenuity and plain speak in harmony. It's the internet; it can be meant to save you time and stress. The trick is to recognise when sarcasm is meant to save you the bother..the sarcasm is often directed at the situation not the OP.


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## supraman215 (Dec 18, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I joined this forum in April 2011, which is just a few months shy of 2 years ago.  I posted my favorite photograph of my daughter and sat back and waited to be lauded for my genius!   I got shredded, and my immediate response to the person was to shred them back with some diatribe about him being abused by his father or some other such nonsense.  I distinctly remember Bitter's response to my post: "Another NewB bites the dust."  I was crestfallen because I was certain that I was pure genius.  The shredder came back to me with "what else can I say besides your photographs suck?"  I was not a happy camper.
> 
> But, here I am 2 years later, a _*MUCH*_ better photographer for sticking around and learning something and what do you know, but I have actually made friends with some of the people on this forum.  I am very happy that I stuck around. For those of you who join this forum and have thin skin, my message is as follows:  Suck it up, read and listed with your ears open, ask questions and post photos.  Learn and you will enjoy the forum.  But you gotta have thick skin.
> 
> 'Nuff said.



This actually sounds pretty bad. If someone who is brand new comes in and you say "these pictures suck" that's just not even worth saying. It's a waste of your time and theirs. Say something helpful! Like "your composition is off" or "your exposure is way off" or "I can't tell what the subject is" then everyone benefits. I have often posted pics on here that I thought were good only to have people come back and say this is off and that is off. That's always helpful because now when I'm looking through the lens the next time I'll consider those things.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

> If there were really "abusers" the mods do a good enough job banning  them.  The real thread that needs to be started is "How to take  criticism when you already think you're a rockstar photographer"



That's the thing.  WE need to do our part in curbing abuse as we see it.  Not waiting for mods to do something about it.  Everyone waits for or expects someone else to handle the situation.  We as a community do not need the mods to stand up for us.  They have other things they could be doing.  It is OUR job to make sure people are treated correctly.  I do understand what you mean about people not being able to take criticism because as far as I've seen so far, that is exactly what's going on.  Some body got their ego checked and they don't know what to do about it.  We don't need to coddle but it would be nice to take a step back and look at ourselves and see what's happening for real.  My new year's resolution will be to quit being as sarcastic as much as I currently am.  I have a bad habit of going off on to different tangents and that doesn't help anyone.

Also, like I said, thinking about our words may help as well.  If I were a weaker person I would be upset that you think a "real" thread would be about something different, minimizing my own belief that this is an important issue.


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## MK3Brent (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm in all support of bullying in the united states. 
This place is so damn weak... someone needs to light a fire under some of these snot nosed wiener kids. 

Everyone is a winner....


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## Mully (Dec 18, 2012)

What i think is very poor is when someone who does not understand what they are doing and others decide to give then some flip answer instead of the help and encouragement they so very much need.  Everyone is at different levels so be sympathetic to the level they are on and give them a leg up to being a better photographer.


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## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> JAC526 said:
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> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



When did I ever say I was good?  And just in case you can find a post where that's exactly what I said I'm blaming it on the alcohol.


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## Robin_Usagani (Dec 18, 2012)

I used to waste my time and respond..... I kinda stopped doing it.  It is not worth it.  Just look at the image and hope gsgary will respond soon.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

Mully said:


> What i think is very poor is when someone who does not understand what they are doing and others decide to give then some flip answer instead of the help and encouragement they so very much need.  Everyone is at different levels so be sympathetic to the level they are on and give them a leg up to being a better photographer.



I agree totally!!! Except..... .... ........ .... ................. . . ....................... . . . .. ......................!


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## squirrels (Dec 18, 2012)

My guess is that you are more likely to find snarky comments related to abstract groups that people can identify with, rather than OPs.

Like, hypothetically, if I saw a post regarding a lady taking a photo of her kid's nachos and other people say "Arg! MWAC!". I might hypothetically have thought "Man, I would totally take a picture of nachos."

Also, I would love some nachos.


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## snowbear (Dec 18, 2012)

I have not received any abuse.  I have seen two or three abusive posts, but it is certainly not widespread.

More often, I have seen a lot of folks that get very defensive with some honest critique, and a few that don't want to learn by honest critique.  I even helped one of these find a new "home" where he is likely to get the "ooohs" add "aaahs" and not have to improve his photography.


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## shefjr (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> "Hey there, nice photo, are you a monkey?  Certainly only a monkey could sling poo that looks as good as that photo.", "Tell you what, sell your camera, buy a gun and go shoot yourself you lame duck.", "I didn't realize such a fata** could get their fat fingers into a position to take a photo."



What are things I say to myself every time I pick up my camera?

Oh wait! We aren't playing Jeopardy?  Lol


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## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

squirrels said:


> My guess is that you are more likely to find snarky comments related to abstract groups that people can identify with, rather than OPs.
> 
> Like, hypothetically, if I saw a post regarding a lady taking a photo of her kid's nachos and other people say "Arg! MWAC!". I might hypothetically have thought "Man, I would totally take a picture of nachos."
> 
> Also, I would love some nachos.



A lady after my own heart.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Okay, so no one has been able to show any proof of abuse here at TPF? Just like I thought.  We're all good people here as I've known for five years now.  Some people have to learn how to take criticism and not to cry wolf with the word abuse.



> I'm in all support of bullying in the united states.
> This place is so damn weak... someone needs to light a fire under some of these snot nosed wiener kids.
> 
> Everyone is a winner....



 I agree that there are a lot of younger people that feel privileged and should have everything handed to them on a silver plate.  But I don't agree on supporting bullying.  Having been bullied all of my childhood for being poor, super skinny, very pale and not a part of any clique, I don't encourage doing that to anyone (even if seemingly they deserve it).  I think attitudes really have to change before we all sink.  I dealt with the name-calling by taking on the name (it showed the bullies I wasn't bothered by the names and they quit calling me those names. I really was bothered by the names though.)  I skipped two years of high school to just stay away from not only students but teachers who bullied the poor in our school.  I didn't know where else to turn.  Nothing I did seemed like it was right at home either.  Never got to spend a night at a friend's house, always getting grounded for trying to stick up for myself (being called a smartass all the time really does a number on a person even later in life) and so moved out when I was sixteen leading to homelessness for the next ten years.  It'd be nice to stop and think about what you're about to say before you do so.  Even something meant in jest can be taken wrong.  People used to punch at me (not to really hit me apparently) when I was younger and then when I'd finally flip, they'd say they were just joking.  Really?  Nice joke.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

snowbear said:


> *I have not received any abuse.*  I have seen two or three abusive posts, but it is certainly not widespread.
> 
> More often, I have seen a lot of folks that get very defensive with some honest critique, and a few that don't want to learn by honest critique.  I even helped one of these find a new "home" where he is likely to get the "ooohs" add "aaahs" and not have to improve his photography.



Ahhhh... we don't want you to feel left out!!! YOU big white fuzzy walrusbreath, you!


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

snowbear said:


> I have not received any abuse.  I have seen two or three abusive posts, but it is certainly not widespread.
> 
> More often, I have seen a lot of folks that get very defensive with some honest critique, and a few that don't want to learn by honest critique.  I even helped one of these find a new "home" where he is likely to get the "ooohs" add "aaahs" and not have to improve his photography.



Did you report the abusive posts?  What posts were they and who were they?  Doesn't matter if it's widespread or not.  If it's even one and no one stands up against it, it'll be two and then three and so on


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## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

squirrels said:


> My guess is that you are more likely to find snarky comments related to abstract groups that people can identify with, rather than OPs.
> 
> Like, hypothetically, if I saw a post regarding a lady taking a photo of her kid's nachos and other people say "Arg! MWAC!". I might hypothetically have thought "Man, I would totally take a picture of nachos."
> 
> Also, I would love some nachos.



Please don't be an MWAC!! I was starting to like you!


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 18, 2012)

As far as the internet goes. this place is pretty tame. 9x out of 10 when I see a poster attacked its generally because they got some reviews that they don't like and they try to come up with some reason that they are wrong. then people jump in. but if your going to be snarky, people are going to be snarky back. just the way it goes. People are differnt and view things diffrently, you say  responding with "it sucks" is bullying. well if I posted a photo and half a dozen people responded saying "it sucks" im going to likely go, yeah there's chances this photo sucks. Heck half the reason I like this place is because people aren't afraid to tell you what they think, good or bad. if I want to hear a bunch of people tell me how good it is i'll post it on facebook. bullying to me is when you see a person and just pick on them all the time for no real reason other then to be mean. That doesn't happen often here that i'm aware of. Just because someone doesn't word a critique in the way that you want doesn't mean its bullying.


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## jwbryson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I joined this forum in April 2011, which is just a few months shy of 2 years ago.  I posted my favorite photograph of my daughter and sat back and waited to be lauded for my genius!   I got shredded, and my immediate response to the person was to shred them back with some diatribe about him being abused by his father or some other such nonsense.  I distinctly remember Bitter's response to my post: "Another NewB bites the dust."  I was crestfallen because I was certain that I was pure genius.  The shredder came back to me with "what else can I say besides your photographs suck?"  I was not a happy camper.
> ...




Nah, they still pretty much suck.


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## Derrel (Dec 18, 2012)

e.rose said:
			
		

> That's because there's no abuse.  Just *people who can't take criticism.*
> 
> If there were really "abusers" the mods do a good enough job banning them.  *The real thread that needs to be started is "How to take criticism when you already think you're a rockstar photographer"*



Applauds.

You know the "singers" who croak out an awful ballad on X-Factor or American Idol Or Who's A Talentless Hack?, and then are totally,totally,totally *surprised that the judges tell them they are not good singers???* Well...guess what...there are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of "fuh-tog-ruh-fers" whose friends, and family, and workmates, and Facebook friends have told them, sometimes for YEARS, that "Oh....you take such good pi'tures! You oughhtta be a perfessional,yer so gooooood at pit'ure-takin'!" And when they show up here and are not ass-kissed to a fare-the-well, they talk about "abuse". The grown-ups on the other hand, often get upset, and then miracle of miracles, WORK at their craft, and almost as if by magic (along with study, hard work, and C&C and helpful suggestions from a collective with HUNDREDS of years' worth of experience), they become BETTER shooters!!

*"Do'ah!!!!"*


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## runnah (Dec 18, 2012)

What the hell is going on in here?

People need to grow a thicker skin, nut up and realize that insults and online forums are like PB&J.


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

It probably comes and goes, I dunno.

4-5 months ago (? a while ago, anyways) it was pretty abusive here. You can pretend that it was just tough love all you want, and it probably did drive some people to become better photographers, but it was straight up bullying. We still have cliqueish behavior, but that's normal. It might be frustrating to get reamed for doing something "bad" and then see one of the in-crowd get lauded for photos which do the exact same thing, but it's not bullying, it's just cliques being cliques. Any time you get more than 3 people together, they're gonna form cliques. It's not any fun to be left out of a clique, but that's life, and you need to get past it.

I don't monitor every thread all the time, though, so I suppose it's possible that people are still unloading their bad days on noobs now and then.

If it's abusive, report it. If you think it might be abusive, report it. Don't demand justice or anything, it's up to the mods. They might well decide that what you see as abusive is honest critique. But,  this is why they get the big bucks, you know, to moderate things. It's the little black triangle with the ! in it, lower left corner of every post.


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## squirrels (Dec 18, 2012)

> Please don't be an MWAC!! I was starting to like you!



Oops. Sorry about that. Feel free to pull up my original post and use all caps to tell me nobody wants to see pics of my kids. If you don't nip it in the bud it will only get worse. :mrgreen:


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## nycphotography (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> While I may be chastised for linking to this thread: I am deleting my own account I feel that a discussion is in need.
> 
> There have been a couple threads/posts other than that one indicating an abusive and clique-ish nature here at TPF.  I've been going through a few of the threads started by newbies and cannot find any real abuse.



This is about the least abusive (yet still useful) forum I've been to in years.  Of course, some people don't know how to give constructive criticism.

1) separate objective fact from subjective opinion and learn to speak clearly and identify opinion as opinion.
2) don't just identify shortcomings.... tell HOW TO FIX / overcome them.

If we  want to improve the forum, a good start would be pointing these two elements out to critiques that lack them.


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## snowbear (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Did you report the abuse?  What posts were they and who were they?  Doesn't matter if it's widespread or not.  If it's even one and no one stands up against it, it'll be two and then three and so on


Offhand, one was a derogatory comment made about a certain group; I reported the post.  As near as I can tell, they haven't posted anything in a long time.  The other (one or two - I can't really remember) were already old threads when I came across them in the "lurking" days before I started posting.


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## Light Guru (Dec 18, 2012)

I have seen just a handful of abusive comments on threads that I happen to participate or follow.  Abuse like flip comments about ones religion, race, sexual orientation etc.  The app I use for the forum on my iPad makes it supper easy to report abuse (Im not sure how easy it is on the main website).  The comments have always been redacted vary quickly when I do report them.

The things I see people getting upset about on the forums are not abuse like I mentioned above but things like they got a critique of their photo they didn't like or they were all gung ho about starting their photo business only to have people tell then what is really involved and what they need to actually do.  

I do not know what happened to those who the abuse is reported against. Do they receive any notification or are their comments just redacted without their notification? Does there account get a temporary suspension? Does the forum track repeat offenders, and disable the accounts of those people permanently?


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Its the same attitudes that drive people to do insane stuff to attack back.  People assume that the bullied should "nut up".  Or that it really isn't bullying, its just cliques being cliques. Or its just online so who cares, learn to brush it off...or there are people out there who manage that sort of thing so we don't have to...we can just ignore it because someone else will take care of it...bullying is bullying...and if its not happening here than that's awesome...but I see a disturbing trend of laid back attitudes toward the subject..and that definitely does not help anyone get to the bottom of anything

Some may be alright with a simple "it sucks" (adult or not) but saying that isn't bullying is the same as when people were telling me in school that my shirt stinks without helping me do anything about it (you know, like giving me a clean shirt...my parents couldn't afford to buy me new clothes...I was getting them from second-hand stores...and when our pipes would freeze in the winter due to no heat, I'd have to wear what I could...smelly or not...) and I'm sure if we were more of a connected people SOMEONE would have given me a clean shirt instead of picking my skinny body up and putting it on the banister overlooking the library twenty feet down.  When they suspended the dude that did that, I was harassed by his clique.  When he got back to school..in gym class all six of them came over and started kicking me in the crotch, punching me in the face...pushing me around...the teacher stood there and looked at me from across the room as did all the students...no one helped...because I was the poor kid...and I guess I should have learned to nut up...


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## sm4him (Dec 18, 2012)

I read a LOT of threads on TPF...a LOT...like, seriously, I think I need help. :lmao:
And my personal assessment of the rudeness/bullying is this:
Bullying is very nearly non-existent on this forum. The few times I've read what I would truly describe as bullying or abusive behavior, it has been dealt with very quickly by the mods; one instance I recall, a person who was fairly quickly becoming a pretty well-respected member suddenly became quite rude and abusive toward a particular female (not me) whom he had a disagreement with. He said very inappropriate things, and the next day he was GONE. Banned forever. 
I can think of a fewer lesser examples too, but honestly, most of them were posts made by relative newcomers themselves, not by the experienced forum members.

Those like the OP in the thread you are referencing who get all up in arms about abusiveness and bullying seem to me like they are over-reacting in a MAJOR way. Someone said something they didn't like and so that person MUST just be a big, awful bully.  I seriously wonder how people like that make it through life if they get that worked up about someone bluntly stating their opinion on an internet forum.

And even those "unhelpful" comments like "what can I say other than your picture stinks" or "My suggestion is delete this photo and find a new hobby" -- those really over-the-top snide comments USUALLY come only AFTER the OP has become highly defensive and snarky themselves because they posted something and got told that they are not the world-class photographer their mommy and friends told them they are.  They react and get ugly about it, and then...yeah, we have our share who will snark right back. But it's really more of a "well, if you're not gonna listen to anything we tell you ANY way, then all I can say is you're a terrible photographer."

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed by several others--I am a better photographer because people here have been willing to give honest feedback. I have never once felt bullied (and please don't start now, or I'll go find a corner to cry in... :lmao: ), but I have felt enriched by the talent, the experience, the willingness to help and the "relationships" I've developed here.

Are there sometimes posts that are just snarky, or mean, or rude for no other reason than just to be nasty? Yep. But it is a very, very small percentage of this community--it generally DOES get nipped in the bud pretty quickly, if only by other members telling the OP to ignore the rude post.

Besides--and I don't know, maybe this is just me: I grew up in a family with three older brothers, an older sister, and two more older "sisters" who were actually cousins who lived next door. In essence, I was the youngest of seven kids. This forum, to me, really is just like my family--sarcastic, bluntly honest, sometimes downright rude, they'll laugh at your expense--and they are also always there to help you when you need it, to encourage you as well as instruct. I've actually had a TPF member call me, and then remote in to my computer to teach me about something I was trying to figure out how to do! Okay, sure, shortly after that, all the money in my bank account mysteriously disappeared, but that's another story... :lmao:
I had a TPF member do something so incredibly nice and thoughtful to help me out, that had NOTHING to do with photography, that it actually brings tears to my eyes to think about.
AND--TPF is even BETTER than my family in some ways, because none of you have ever come to visit and eaten the last of my ice cream, or consumed the last of my rum without replacing it...


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

I *have* noticed a little tendency for the older timers to drag out the  smily when they expect some sort of s**tstorm to arrive shortly, but these days they are usually disappointed. While somewhat mean spirited when it's used in a context where one suspects the old timer is looking forward to watching some newbie get pummeled, it's subtle enough to probably not even be noticed by the newbie and, as noted, the old timer is more often disappointed than not.

I find it somewhat gratifying when a mean-spirited gesture winds up being left hanging, so in a way I am in favor of it!


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## Mr_Mac (Dec 18, 2012)

The problem with Internet forums is that the responses are flat.  You cannot see the face or body language of the poster so you almost have to take any response with a grain of salt until you get a feel for the people who do respond to you.  I also believe that if you open the door for C&C you better be ready for it all and if there are any ambiguous posts, ask the poster what he/she meant instead of going off thinking you were just handed over to the wolves.  Shoot, I can't count the number of times I've laid out a response that I had to revise because it sounded harsh even though I never intended it that way.  

To date, the only one who's hurt my feelings was Charlie!


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm not saying anyone here is abusive at all.  Like I keep saying, this place seems to be devoid of it (it is my first home after-all).  Having said that, this thread did bring to my attention an almost lazydaisical attitude towards the subject of bullying and that is somewhat disturbing.  I hope some of you go back and re-read some of what you wrote and see that I am not telling the truth.  If this world is to get anywhere, it will be through bonding not through made up excuses to have ignorance towards the maltreatment of others.  Hopefully the new year will bring new vision and hope to us all and that we learn to show love first regardless whether our minds trick us into believing they are undeserving of it because our hearts will know it's best to do so.  Thank you all for taking part in this thread.  This meant a lot to me.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I joined this forum in April 2011, which is just a few months shy of 2 years ago.  I posted my favorite photograph of my daughter and sat back and waited to be lauded for my genius!   I got shredded, and my immediate response to the person was to shred them back with some diatribe about him being abused by his father or some other such nonsense.  I distinctly remember Bitter's response to my post: "Another NewB bites the dust."  I was crestfallen because I was certain that I was pure genius.  The shredder came back to me with "what else can I say besides your photographs suck?"  I was not a happy camper.



If you are going to put words in my mouth, please provide the link to the thread.
You know, "whole story".


----------



## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

This one right here, Bitter Jeweler?

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...b-w-daughter-thoughts-suggestions-thanks.html


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:


> This one right here, Bitter Jeweler?
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...b-w-daughter-thoughts-suggestions-thanks.html



Ah, so in context, it wasn't ME saying his photos sucked, it was cloudwalker, and my response was, in regards to his awesome reaction to cloudwalker.

Thanks Amolitor!


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I know I've done my fair share of snarky remarks.  I'm not above it.  We ALL should work to be above it though.  It's the self-attitude that WE don't behave like that. That's the mentality like I wrote in another thread "...not in my town, not in my backyard."


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

No problem. I don't think anyone comes off looking particularly good in that thread, but it's a good random sample of the sort of stuff that used to go on here a lot more. Threads like that seem to happen a lot less often, or to be quite accurate, I notice them a lot less often. So, good!


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## nycphotography (Dec 18, 2012)

Well for one thing... when the C&C is "first picture of wife, hubby, or ugly kids"... I just steer clear.

There is no way they are really looking for any honest feedback  ;-)


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:


> No problem. I don't think anyone comes off looking particularly good in that thread, but it's a good random sample of the sort of stuff that used to go on here a lot more. Threads like that seem to happen a lot less often, or to be quite accurate, I notice them a lot less often. So, good!



I'm no angel.
But please, make your accusations of anyone, accurate.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you Mr_Mac, when you say "I also believe that if you open the door for C&C you better be  ready for it all and if there are any ambiguous posts, ask the poster  what he/she meant instead of going off thinking you were just handed  over to the wolves."  I agree with that.  I also believe we should not make them have to ask us what we meant.  We should be the first to give meaningful critiques right off the bat.  If there's time to type something vague, then there's time to type something worthwhile.  That or don't type at all.  Would you not agree?


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## Derrel (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:


> This one right here, Bitter Jeweler?
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...b-w-daughter-thoughts-suggestions-thanks.html



Now that...that was a good example thread...nobody really came out smelling like a rose in that...


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm not saying we have to stick our noses up and down each others' backsides but it would be nice to have a little think-session before we type out stuff.  Because like has been mentioned, we are typing...there is no body language eye-contact going on.  So we can either expect OTHERS to "nut up" or we can expect OURSELVES to have a little fore-thought into how we conduct ourselves.  Saying that this is just the internet is a sore excuse for not being polite.


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## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

There are some pompous twits here, But I am starting to enjoy giving them shiiiit back, And the rest of you lot are jokers, sarcastic,talented, bafoons... who obviously have been bantering with each other for a while, Well that is my month long subscription opinion ..  As for bullying, I have big shoulders bring it! I can't wait to start uploading photos taken on my new cam for critique from you old goats! I shall take it on the chin and better myself with the help of you all, That is the whole point of the site


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## Robin_Usagani (Dec 18, 2012)

I love jwbryson's post of his fishing trip.  It was a jumping mahi mahi / marlin.  Can't remember.


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## Mr_Mac (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Thank you Mr_Mac, when you say "I also believe that if you open the door for C&C you better be  ready for it all and if there are any ambiguous posts, ask the poster  what he/she meant instead of going off thinking you were just handed  over to the wolves."  I agree with that.  I also believe we should not make them have to ask us what we meant.  We should be the first to give meaningful critiques right off the bat.  If there's time to type something vague, then there's time to type something worthwhile.  That or don't type at all.  Would you not agree?



Implicitly!


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

> There are some pompous twits here, But I am starting to enjoy giving  them shiiiit back, And the rest of you lot are jokers,  sarcastic,talented, bafoons... who obviously have been bantering with  each other for a while, Well that is my month long subscription opinion
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly, we are here to help each other.  And yes, there will be some good-hearted be-littling amongst those that have been here for awhile and developed a kinship but that is not the same as belittling someone you barely know even if just in jest.  Even if we can take the belittling well ourselves, this should not and does not give us the charge to go ahead and expect others to do the same.


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

This thread is silly.

1. I rarely see actual abuse here.  I see quite a bit of impatience, a fair measure of frustration and a little snark, but almost no abuse.  99% of the time the community here will TROUNCE anyone who crosses the line long before a mod sees it.

2. Supposing that you (drex) or anyone here has the ability to "not stand" for something, and that you or anyone would be able to choose what would or would not tarnish TPF is naive at best.  You'd be about as effective in selecting what will be the next popular color in the world of fashion. You have little say and little perspective.

Most of the time claims of abuse are really just new people who think they're better than they are getting pissed off because someone told them that they're not.  If it were anything more people like myself would have been banned long ago, because we are the offenders of whom the newbies cry about.


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## Derrel (Dec 18, 2012)

shents said:
			
		

> There are some *pompous twits *here, >SNIP



I love you Brits!!! And I am especially fond of your reverence for twits!!!


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## runnah (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> This thread is silly.
> 
> 1. I rarely see actual abuse here.  I see quite a bit of impatience, a fair measure of frustration and a little snark, but almost no abuse.  99% of the time the community here will TROUNCE anyone who crosses the line long before a mod sees it.
> 
> ...




I HATE rabbits!!!


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## pixmedic (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> This thread is silly.
> 
> 1. I rarely see actual abuse here.  I see quite a bit of impatience, a fair measure of frustration and a little snark, but almost no abuse.  99% of the time the community here will TROUNCE anyone who crosses the line long before a mod sees it.
> 
> ...



been waiting for Br'er Rabbit to chime in!
totally agree here.  BUT, there is still the issue (which is brought up regularly) of giving "proper" critique. 
the difference between saying "your lighting sucks" and "you need fill light to get rid of shadows, try a flash with a diffuser" is hugely different.  Often times, just that little courtesy would stop an otherwise "flame" thread in its tracks. usually however, people seem either unwilling, or unable to give at least halfway decent critique. and strictly in MY dumba$$ opinion....if your ability to critique is limited to "your lighting sucks" or, "that crop sucks", you really should just refrain from commenting at all, and let someone that CAN actually C&C get in there and help before the whole thread burns.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

This thread...


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> This thread is silly.
> 
> 1. I rarely see actual abuse here.  I see quite a bit of impatience, a fair measure of frustration and a little snark, but almost no abuse.  99% of the time the community here will TROUNCE anyone who crosses the line long before a mod sees it.
> 
> ...



I hear ya.  I'll repeat that I see no abuse here either.  It really does seem to be the inflated egos of those who still have much to learn in this craft/hobby/profession that cry abuse when there really is no justification for it.  

If there is abuse happening though (now, in the past, or in the future), it is my position (even though as you claim my perspective is limited) that we have to be together on the topic of bullying.  Not just here in this forum but elsewhere as well.  It came to my attention through this thread (silly as you may say it is, I will still believe it was an important discussion to bring to the table) there is still a long way to go to convince ourselves of our own power to change the world.  Maybe I cannot predict the color of next years fashion or ... maybe I can influence it along with others.  If one person makes a stand and others join in, then perhaps change will occur.  To convince ourselves there is little we can do individually is almost the same as saying the word "can't".  That's the banned word in the computer lab I ran for seven years.  People could cuss if need be as long as it was not overt and unwarranted but they would get a talking to for saying "can't".  I don't like self-defeatism if I can help it.


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## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> > There are some pompous twits here, But I am starting to enjoy giving  them shiiiit back, And the rest of you lot are jokers,  sarcastic,talented, bafoons... who obviously have been bantering with  each other for a while, Well that is my month long subscription opinion ..   As for bullying, I have big shoulders bring it! I can't wait to start  uploading photos taken on my new cam for critique from you old goats! I  shall take it on the chin and better myself with the help of you all,  That is the whole point of the site
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thing is people with a god complex on here look arses anyway, Its nice to be nice, You can banter and critique in a funny way it would be boring else,  if its plain ole rude and several attack the poor newbie, well shame on them,  I have to say I did think there was a click when i started on here but have come to think, maybe they are  just purely friends, and if you read some threads you can see some are funny!! ,  For every 10 that are helpful and happy to share lil tips, there is usually 1 pompous twit know it all that just seems to be here to talk purely to the professional photographers, and only talk to say something negative, But the helpful people out way the negative... another one month subscription opinion


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## kundalini (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> I'm not saying anyone here is abusive at all. Like I keep saying, this place seems to be devoid of it (it is my first home after-all). Having said that, this thread did bring to my attention an almost lazydaisical attitude towards the subject of bullying and that is somewhat disturbing. I hope some of you go back and re-read some of what you wrote and see that I am not telling the truth. *If this world is to get anywhere, it will be through bonding not through made up excuses to have ignorance towards the maltreatment of others. Hopefully the new year will bring new vision and hope to us all and that we learn to show love first regardless whether our minds trick us into believing they are undeserving of it because our hearts will know it's best to do so*. Thank you all for taking part in this thread. This meant a lot to me.



Kumbaya MF, kumbaya.

[grumble, grumble, grumble]  It just doesn't resonate the same when you have to use the abbreviation.  [/grumble, grumble, grumble]


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> This thread...



I'm just a kid stirring the pot.  Good though.  An unstirred pot gets a film on top and nothing tastes right.


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

runnah said:
			
		

> I HATE rabbits!!!







			
				pixmedic said:
			
		

> been waiting for Br'er Rabbit to chime in!
> totally agree here.  BUT, there is still the issue (which is brought up regularly) of giving "proper" critique.
> the difference between saying "your lighting sucks" and "you need fill light to get rid of shadows, try a flash with a diffuser" is hugely different.  Often times, just that little courtesy would stop an otherwise "flame" thread in its tracks. usually however, people seem either unwilling, or unable to give at least halfway decent critique. and strictly in MY dumba$$ opinion....if your ability to critique is limited to "your lighting sucks" or, "that crop sucks", you really should just refrain from commenting at all, and let someone what CAN actually C&C get in there and help before the whole thread burns.



Sure, but again... Try to change it.  I once came up with the idea of The Pact.  Some people still have it in their sig.  The idea was to establish a framework for behavior for requesters and commenters, and to get enough people to put it in their sig that it was constantly in everyone's face... Really the only way to even hope to bend a culture this large short of brute-force moderation... Which isn't TPFs MO.

The result?  Hoo boy.

Lots of people got behind it, but a lot of people raised up pitchforks and torches and demanded my head.  You wanna see abuse?  Go look up THAT thread.  I've never seen such vitriol here- before or since.

In other words, nothing you can do about it because it's mob rule and the average intelligence and wisdom of any mob is something north of a kumquat.

All this silly whining by noobs is frankly equalled only by threads that elevate it by saying "we must do something!!!". I see that now.  I didn't then.  

The funny thing about champions is that they're really easy targets for slung feces up on those nice white chargers.


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## Derrel (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> This thread...



You got copyright to that image, meeester???


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## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

Derrel said:


> shents said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




HAHA I actually won that last year  I love the facial expression that goes with it!, I love the word twit!


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > This thread...
> ...



Please don't quote copyright violations! Oh D*MN IT.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I hear ya.  I'll repeat that I see no abuse here either.  It really does seem to be the inflated egos of those who still have much to learn in this craft/hobby/profession that cry abuse when there really is no justification for it.
> 
> If there is abuse happening though (now, in the past, or in the future), it is my position (even though as you claim my perspective is limited) that we have to be together on the topic of bullying.  Not just here in this forum but elsewhere as well.  It came to my attention through this thread (silly as you may say it is, I will still believe it was an important discussion to bring to the table) there is still a long way to go to convince ourselves of our own power to change the world.  Maybe I cannot predict the color of next years fashion or ... maybe I can influence it along with others.  If one person makes a stand and others join in, then perhaps change will occur.  To convince ourselves there is little we can do individually is almost the same as saying the word "can't".  That's the banned word in the computer lab I ran for seven years.  People could cuss if need be as long as it was not overt and unwarranted but they would get a talking to for saying "can't".  I don't like self-defeatism if I can help it.



Oh god you used the "b word".

The whole planet needs to grow up.  People suck.  They're in competition with you for resources of all kinds and if you are a weaker fish you're the one whose gonna get picked on and eventually eaten.  Expecting people not to be jerks is to deny evolution.  Sharpen your stick and fight back.

Seriously this whole thread is just a cry for attention.  Somebody lock it before I barf.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for being Frank but SHIRLEY you don't mean I have elevated the whining by making a discussion of bullying?  Is not the point of discussions to come to some sort of concession?  What do we do about bullying then (here at TPF which is apparently slim to non-existent and out there where it seems to be rampant)?  Or did I become confused as to the meaning behind that line you wrote that I bolded?


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## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



ANOTHER ONE OF MY VIOLATIONS FIRST WEEK!! 

Was going to post a link or photographers name someone blocked it before I had chance to put link let alone  fart!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > This thread...
> ...



It's the pot stirring meme?.


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> Thank you for being Frank but SHIRLEY you don't mean I have elevated the whining by making a discussion of bullying?  Is not the point of discussions to come to some sort of concession?  What do we do about bullying then (here at TPF which is apparently slim to non-existent and out there where it seems to be rampant)?  Or did I become confused as to the meaning behind that line your wrote that I bolded?



I mean EXACTLY that.  You got it.

You might as well start yelling "WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!!". 

There's no bullying here.  Not even close.  That's a super-charged term, particularly these days... And everyone loves to throw is around to add false weight to their arguments.  It's silly.


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

I only see one person whining in this thread..


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:
			
		

> I only see one person whining in this thread..



I call bullying!!!!!!!!


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

kill da Wabbit.. Kill da WABbit!


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:
			
		

> kill da Wabbit.. Kill da WABbit!



You would have LOVED The Pact.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, like I said, I didn't care about cussing as long as it wasn't a long stream of it in a loud voice for no good reason.  It was an office after-all, not a bar.  

I'm not quite sure why you'd say this thread is a cry for attention when it obviously is.  That's the point.  To give attention to the act of bullying and to discuss it.  I'm in no way denying "evolution" by expecting people not to be jerks.  That would be a part of our further evolution.  You know, to evolve from being jerks to caring people.  If you want to continue being a jerk than do so.  I'll try to evolve from being a jerk to someone who cares for others as should other people.  The earth is too small not to.  If you want someone to lock this thread so you're not forced to come here and waste your time writing to an "attention-starved" Drex, then by all means request it.  Thank you for expressing your opinion, no matter what it is, it is appreciated if not disagreed with by me in a way.


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## pixmedic (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



some of us still do!
support the bunny!


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

I've clicked on The Pact links here and there, and it actually looked pretty good to me.

I'm not much of a joiner, and I'm not really much of an organized sports kind of guy. Still, while I don't remember any specific details, it's probably informed how I do critique, a little. I remember reading it and thinking 'hmm, that's not a bad idea, and that's ok too'. It's just not the kind of thing I sign up for.


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> Well, like I said, I didn't care about cussing as long as it wasn't a long stream of it in a loud voice for no good reason.  It was an office after-all, not a bar.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why you'd say this thread is a cry for attention when it obviously is.  That's the point.  To give attention to the act of bullying and to discuss it.  I'm in no way denying "evolution" by expecting people not to be jerks.  That would be a part of our further evolution.  You know, to evolve from being jerks to caring people.  If you want to continue being a jerk than do so.  I'll try to evolve from being a jerk to someone who cares for others as should other people.  The earth is too small not to.  If you want someone to lock this thread so you're not forced to come here and waste your time writing to an "attention-starved" Drex, then by all means request it.  Thank you for expressing your opinion, no matter what it is, it is appreciated if not disagreed with by me in a way.



I applaud the spirit  If everyone felt the way you propose the world would be a kinder place. 

However, it doesn't work that way, and this silly thread won't change it even in the relative microcosm known as TPF.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

So that's how things work.  Anyone who brings up a subject that most are uncomfortable talking about is a whiner.  I believe the thread is titled "...supposed..." and it was my position that there is NO bullying here at TPF (or none as far as I have been able to see not having gone through all the threads).  So I ended up discussing bullying in general as it seemed there were quite a few people who had a strange attitude towards the subject.

Should I keep my opinions/ideas/thoughts to myself and not share them with my friends here?  If so, I guess I will do that.  It just saddens me that the attitude toward bullying is one of denial, mockery and chastising.  I hope this evolution towards a spiritual connection with each other happens soon.  Too many people seem to still be stuck in the defensive mode from when we were hunter/gatherers.

Well, if no one stands and tries, no matter where, than no change will ever happen.  Even if the change starts in a little forum in the middle of buttf*** internet-land.  No one knows how "it" (whatever is meant by "it") works anyhow.  That's why there's so much confusion.  We believe its fight or die all the time.


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## amolitor (Dec 18, 2012)

What WILL change things is constant social pressure to change.

This thread is a little piece of social pressure. It's got rather a lot of extra posts in it at this point, but as long as everyone's having fun, I got no problem with it.

The community tends to behave in a way that is consistent with the perceived mores of the community. Threads like this, and a thousand other little nudges and hints are what set that perception of social mores. When people get snarky, and then other people Like their snark 500 times and reply with LOL!!!! and  they reward the snark and push the perceived mores of the community in the other direction.

It's in constant motion. The urge toward bully and pointless meanness is constant, and if you want a pleasant and constructive community you have to keep up the constant counter-pressure, otherwise you get meanness as the standard.


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## Tee (Dec 18, 2012)

amolitor said:


> This one right here, Bitter Jeweler?
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...b-w-daughter-thoughts-suggestions-thanks.html



I just lol'd at CC's second reply.  That makes me a horrible person.  But in fairness to CC, he did offer some non-snarky critique before unleashing the hounds.  





manaheim said:


> Most of the time claims of abuse are really just new people who think they're better than they are getting pissed off because someone told them that they're not.  If it were anything more people like myself would have been banned long ago, because we are the offenders of whom the newbies cry about.



Yep.  This is where the majority of threads turn south.  90% of the time it's some sort of thread asking face palm inducing questions while making claims of having a business or getting a paid assignment.  

And lastly, with all these recent claims of "bullying" and "abuse" why aren't the threads with the so-called infractions being linked (current not threads from 2 years ago)?   And because apparently I'm not in the clique, could someone please supply a list of names who are the clique?  Can we get this all sorted out like now?  I'm missing a rerun of How I Met Your Mother for this.


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## bentcountershaft (Dec 18, 2012)

This subject come up way to often and out of turn.  There are a number of other predictable threads that make the rounds here and lately those have been ignored because this one keeps popping up.  I've had enough and I'm submitting to the community _Bent Measure #1_ as follows:

*The Full  (in progress) List of Pre-Approved Dead Horse Threads*

1.  You People Are Mean
2.  Defining Art
3.  What Makes A Pro?
4.  Natural Light Vs. Flash/Strobe
5.  Canon Vs. Nikon
6.  PC Vs. Mac
​If you have suggestions to add to this list, now is the time. This is just to get us started.  My idea is that we dedicate one week's worth of drama to just one subject and then the next week move on down the list.  Since this week is "You People Are Mean" that means that next week we will cover "Defining Art" and not return to #1 until the list has been completed and ready to cycle again.

Please note I did not included any of these:

1.  First Wedding/Shoot Tomorrow
2.  Am I Ready To Go Pro?
3.  50 Pics of Christmas Lights in Selective Color for C&C
4.  What Camera Should I Buy?
5.  Tell Me Everything I Need to Buy and Fill Out/File To Open My Own Business
​I did not include them because while similar they are centered around individuals rather than subjects and therefore can not easily be controlled.  I don't think we can convince someone that they have to wait five weeks to start a "What Camera Should I Buy" thread.





​


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 18, 2012)




----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

> And lastly, with all these recent claims of "bullying" and "abuse" why  aren't the threads with the so-called infractions being linked (current  not threads from 2 years ago)?



That was my original request and through all of this we have not been able to find an instance outside of one.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> That was my original request and through all of this we have not been able to find an instance outside of one.



And yet you seem to have escalated it by calling for a stop to bullying.............


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I hope that this thread I started is somehow not incorporated into the Dead Horse Thread #1 as I never mentioned that anyone here WAS mean.  It was my intent to showcase any posts that were truly abusive (knowing in my mind from being here for five years there would be little to none) as a response to a thread dictating such was occurring.  Through this thread, I came to the realization that some people believe that bullying in any avenue (internet or analog-world) is either justified (people need to "nut up"), non-existent or not worth discussing.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I escalated the bullying by "requesting" a stop to it???  Here I thought I was attempting to show we need to reconsider our own attitudes towards the subject so that we openly discuss ways to prevent it.  To not just wait for someone else to put a stop to it but to come together as a society to minimize if not nullify it.  

I'm not quite sure what you would like to have done about it.  Shall we not discuss it?  Society seems to shun the discussion and nothing seems to be changing for the better as a result.  Shall I disregard my ideas about being able to talk with others to resolve issues and just be like everyone else and keep shut about it?  If so, I can certainly do that. I in no way meant to offend anyone by posting this thread.  Having said that, I guess I'm not sure how anything bad in life is supposed to get better.  Here I guess I am wrong in my conclusion that change comes from people discussing wrongs, the possible changes we can make that could turn them right and the actual working on the change.  Is that even arguable?  I mean, who in their right mind would argue against that?  But I've been told I have a limited viewpoint for some reason, so I guess they know my view better than I.


----------



## manicmike (Dec 18, 2012)

There's a line when critiquing that crosses from valuable critique to being rude. When I first posted here there were several comments that were just plain rude instead of meaningful. I'm all about honesty, but some people seem to hide behind a keyboard with critiques they wouldn't give face to face.


----------



## bentcountershaft (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> I hope that this thread I started is somehow not incorporated into the Dead Horse Thread #1 as I never mentioned that anyone here WAS mean.  It was my intent to showcase any posts that were truly abusive (knowing in my mind from being here for five years there would be little to none) as a response to a thread dictating such was occurring.  Through this thread, I came to the realization that some people believe that bullying in any avenue (internet or analog-world) is either justified (people need to "nut up"), non-existent or not worth discussing.



I should have been more clear about the point but my rant was more about the thread you linked to than this one.  Even though this one kind of went the same way of "No we aren't trying to be mean, we're just being honest" like #1's always tend to go.  As far as bullying and the discussion of it, I don't really see any of it, so I'm not sure there's a need to discuss it in the context of this forum.  A few years ago it could certainly get that way, especially with an overly defensive poster and a large group think mob jumping in but I don't see much of that anymore.  I don't read every thread like I used to anymore so it's possible it is there and I miss it or it's not there because I was the cause of it and I stopped.  That second one may be a bit of stretch.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I know.  It was the same for me.  No one told me to go kill myself though.  I was able to handle the vague comments even the seemingly rude ones ("looks like someone threw up on the monitor").  I was able to find the humor in it but I worry about others too much I guess.  I would hope people would take ten or more seconds before typing/saying something  and take that time to reassess whether the comment will be beneficial for the other person of its just a self-centered way to make ourselves chuckle.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

bentcountershaft said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> > I hope that this thread I started is somehow not incorporated into the Dead Horse Thread #1 as I never mentioned that anyone here WAS mean.  It was my intent to showcase any posts that were truly abusive (knowing in my mind from being here for five years there would be little to none) as a response to a thread dictating such was occurring.  Through this thread, I came to the realization that some people believe that bullying in any avenue (internet or analog-world) is either justified (people need to "nut up"), non-existent or not worth discussing.
> ...



I know that the discussion of bullying here at TPF may be moot, I did see what I saw in other peoples' attitudes towards the subject of general bullying and steered it that way considering this is the sub-section "Off-Topic".  I believe that there is a lot of bullying happening out there in the world in general and it should be discussed.  That's when I started noticing what has been happening for a long time: mocking, making-light-of, shunning the conversation.  Doesn't seem logical to me that not discussing something will inevitably lead to a change.  Unless all of us are okay with bullying.  I guess.  If bullying is intended to make us grow as humans, then I don't want that to be stalemated.  Bully away.  It seems though to be completely unhealthy to me though and so, logically, change only comes from the acknowledgment of and discussion of how we treat each other.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

I reiterate: silly.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Well thank you for reminding us.  May I ask what is silly though?


----------



## dewey (Dec 18, 2012)

There is a little "!" at the bottom left of each post.  Reporting abusive posts is the best option.  The "I'm leaving" posts which are really just "look at me" threads are just as corrosive to the community.  All they do is start trouble.

I've seen huge amount of indispensable advice given out over the years.  Just because some people, myself included, react poorly once in a while to the millionth "I just bought a D50 with a kit lens and the wedding is Saturday" threads doesn't mean the community is damaged or broken.

This forum is like every other human interface opportunity out there.  Good and bad.  In the end I find TPF overwhelmingly positive, especially compared to other large forums.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Right? I agree.  This place has been a positive experience for me.


----------



## panblue (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> You would have LOVED The Pact.



..someone was requesting a list of the clique, just a moment ago..:mrgreen:


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

Mr_Mac said:


> The problem with Internet forums is that the responses are flat.  You cannot see the face or body language of the poster so you almost have to take any response with a grain of salt until you get a feel for the people who do respond to you.  I also believe that if you open the door for C&C you better be ready for it all and if there are any ambiguous posts, ask the poster what he/she meant instead of going off thinking you were just handed over to the wolves.  Shoot, I can't count the number of times I've laid out a response that I had to revise because it sounded harsh even though I never intended it that way.
> 
> To date, the only one who's hurt my feelings was Charlie!



Which one?


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

Man... I actually have to work a little bit, and you guys go nuts, lol! 8 Pages.... and only one whiner!  I would say that is a pretty good average!


----------



## invisible (Dec 18, 2012)

shents said:


> There are some pompous twits here, But I am starting to enjoy giving them shiiiit back, And the rest of you lot are jokers, sarcastic,talented, bafoons... who obviously have been bantering with each other for a while, Well that is my month long subscription opinion ..  As for bullying, I have big shoulders bring it! I can't wait to start uploading photos taken on my new cam for critique from you old goats! I shall take it on the chin and better myself with the help of you all, That is the whole point of the site


I love you. I'll make sure to give you a call the next time I visit Plymouth, UK to bully you some.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

Lol

Wow.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I escalated the bullying by "requesting" a stop to it???  Here I thought I was attempting to show we need to reconsider our own attitudes towards the subject so that we openly discuss ways to prevent it.  To not just wait for someone else to put a stop to it but to come together as a society to minimize if not nullify it.
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you would like to have done about it.  Shall we not discuss it?  Society seems to shun the discussion and nothing seems to be changing for the better as a result.  Shall I disregard my ideas about being able to talk with others to resolve issues and just be like everyone else and keep shut about it?  If so, I can certainly do that. I in no way meant to offend anyone by posting this thread.  Having said that, I guess I'm not sure how anything bad in life is supposed to get better.  Here I guess I am wrong in my conclusion that change comes from people discussing wrongs, the possible changes we can make that could turn them right and the actual working on the change.  Is that even arguable?  I mean, who in their right mind would argue against that?  But I've been told I have a limited viewpoint for some reason, so I guess they know my view better than I.



You've requested a stop to that which you said there is no evidence of.  If that's not the crowning glory of silly escalations I don't know what is.

Perhaps there are a variety of other things not happening on TPF that you should demand an end to... Here are some suggestions for you to get you moving....

- I demand an end to puppy kicking photos on TPF.  This must stop!
- I insist that the mods put a ban on discussions about how to create home made drugs using a harmonica and tinkertoys!  Won't someone PLEASE think of the children?!
- We must no longer stand for the rampant folding of space within the black and white galleries!  This practice must be squashed!


----------



## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

invisible said:


> shents said:
> 
> 
> > There are some pompous twits here, But I am starting to enjoy giving them shiiiit back, And the rest of you lot are jokers, sarcastic,talented, bafoons... who obviously have been bantering with each other for a while, Well that is my month long subscription opinion ..  As for bullying, I have big shoulders bring it! I can't wait to start uploading photos taken on my new cam for critique from you old goats! I shall take it on the chin and better myself with the help of you all, That is the whole point of the site
> ...




Haha great! Someone new to practice my thai boxing on! hope your fast


----------



## invisible (Dec 18, 2012)

shents said:


> invisible said:
> 
> 
> > shents said:
> ...


I am fast, but I get easily distracted when I hear a female speaking in British.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm speaking in British right now...........


----------



## invisible (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> I'm speaking in British right now...........


That sounds a lot like American to me. Plus, you're not into tattoos. 

Are you here to pull a mishele? The correct thread would be this one.


----------



## mishele (Dec 18, 2012)

Invisible drinking, I love it!!


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

invisible said:
			
		

> That sounds a lot like American to me. Plus, you're not into tattoos.
> 
> Are you here to pull a mishele? The correct thread would be this one.



Ummm ok.  Hey govnah, wanna come see my flat?  I have some furniture made from al oo min ee um.

How's that?

Are you hot for me now? 

Oh and lol- awesome thread mish!


----------



## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> invisible said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lets not forget a nice cup of tea!  Although the guvnor is more landan tan!.  I am in the south west so I am more Cap'n jack sparraaa!! haha Not so sexy


----------



## invisible (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Ummm ok. Hey govnah, wanna come see my flat? I have some furniture made from al oo min ee um.
> 
> How's that?
> 
> Are you hot for me now?


No offense, but after that I'm not really hot for anyone anymore


----------



## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

haha Googl


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

While you folks are going on, and on, about nothing, I put dry ice in the toilet. The cats are freaking out!


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

invisible said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm ok. Hey govnah, wanna come see my flat? I have some furniture made from al oo min ee um.
> ...



 DAMNIT.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> While you folks are going on, and on, about nothing, I put dry ice in the toilet. The cats are freaking out!



HAHAH...

Um... change your name to "Bored Jeweler?"


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

Mish, your new avatar has a giant rack.  I approve.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 18, 2012)

i had no choice.


----------



## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

Wow.

People sure do like to ***** and moan.

It's amazing anyone ever made it out of the womb from how sensitive people seem to be about Internet comments.


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

Man I wish the toy companies would stop recycling 80s stuff.


----------



## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> Wow.
> 
> People sure do like to ***** and moan.
> 
> It's amazing anyone ever made it out of the womb from how sensitive people seem to be about Internet comments.



Its ok...underneath that hard brittle shell I know you are all gooey and soft on the inside.


----------



## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> While you folks are going on, and on, about nothing, I put dry ice in the toilet. The cats are freaking out!



Where are the pictures?


----------



## Light Guru (Dec 18, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> Well for one thing... when the C&C is "first picture of wife, hubby, or ugly kids"... I just steer clear.
> 
> There is no way they are really looking for any honest feedback  ;-)



BINGO! I skip right over those threads myself. 

The question "What do you think of these pictures I took of my kids?" Is much like when a wife asks her husband "Does this dress make me look fat?"


----------



## shents (Dec 18, 2012)

Light Guru said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > Well for one thing... when the C&C is "first picture of wife, hubby, or ugly kids"... I just steer clear.
> ...



Never ask a guy that my ex once said  " NO YOUR FAT MAKES YOU LOOK FAT" I laughed!


----------



## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:
			
		

> Its ok...underneath that hard brittle shell I know you are all gooey and soft on the inside.



Yes but the internet's shots are the equivalent of some weird homeless dude running up, pointing his finger, and yelling "bang bang."


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > While you folks are going on, and on, about nothing, I put dry ice in the toilet. The cats are freaking out!
> ...


----------



## bentcountershaft (Dec 18, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hate it when they do that and always start a thread afterward explaining why.


----------



## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

I could piss out a better composition. There are mixed light sources that conflict with the already uninteresting subject matter. 

The noise is terrible and if you actually knew what the hell you were doing should have put the camera on a tripod and lowered the ISO.

Seriously Bitter. Is that beard absorbing your brain for sustenance or something?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

Nah, my beard gets plenty of soup, and cookie crumbs. Mostly soup though.


----------



## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Nah, my beard gets plenty of soup, and cookie crumbs. Mostly soup though.



Doesn't change the fact that your photo is so bad...

That I am going to print it out, vomit on it, rub it through dirty cat litter, spit on it, set it on fire, than send it to you.

Merry freaking Christmas.


----------



## JAC526 (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



I expected dry ice....and cats dammit.


----------



## sm4him (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > JAC526 said:
> ...



Yeah, well, I expected some insight and entertainment in exchange for the minutes of my life I just sacrificed to read the last 8 pages of this thread. We have both been sorely disappointed tonight.


----------



## e.rose (Dec 18, 2012)

WHY... DEAR SWEET BABY JESUS, **WHY* *IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING?!?!?!?!?!

I thought I was gonna try and read it all... and then I went... "Nope.  Don't care enough."

Give it a rest ya'll. 

Go take some pictures... and then post them here so all of us can say mean things about them.  And about you.  'Cause dat be how we do hurr.


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

sm4him said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> > *I expected dry ice....and cats dammit*.
> ...



You Bully!


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

e.rose said:


> WHY... DEAR SWEET BABY JESUS, **WHY* *IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> I thought I was gonna try and read it all... and then I went... "Nope.  Don't care enough."
> 
> ...



*MMEEEEEEOOOWWWW!*


----------



## e.rose (Dec 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > WHY... DEAR SWEET BABY JESUS, **WHY* *IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING?!?!?!?!?!
> ...



I don't... what?    That went over my head... you're gonna have to explain it to those of us that apparently a little slow this evening...


----------



## IByte (Dec 18, 2012)

e.rose said:


> I don't... what?    That went over my head... you're gonna have to explain it to those of us that apparently a little slow this evening...



...Derp and I'm done..goodnight all


----------



## mishele (Dec 18, 2012)




----------



## kundalini (Dec 18, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Nah, my beard gets plenty of soup, and cookie crumbs. Mostly soup though.



Mine is short compared to yours, but I keep getting maiden oil in mine.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

mishele said:


>




Free bully zone!!!


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

kundalini said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, my beard gets plenty of soup, and cookie crumbs. Mostly soup though.
> ...



I think I threw up a little.


----------



## jhodges10 (Dec 18, 2012)

I read it all, every last word of every post and this thread reminded me of something I saw today. A guy driving a phone company truck with a bucket on it was working on installing new phone poles. He backed off the pavement into some mud then just sat there spinning his wheels until he was buried to the axle. That is this thread. It went nowhere fast.


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

mishele said:


>



Looks a little underexposed, don'cha think? Are you Blind? Or what? Make the WHITES WHITE... NOT GRAY!  lol!


----------



## unpopular (Dec 18, 2012)

much better


----------



## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

11 pages in a day.  lolz.

Bullies????


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

Pallycow said:


> 11 pages in a day.  lolz.
> 
> Bullies????
> 
> View attachment 29042



We have had a LOT more than that in the past... sometimes in just a few hours! lol!


----------



## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

unpopular said:


> much better




Dude???  That's just not right!!!!!





























lololz


----------



## unpopular (Dec 18, 2012)

ok. that confused the shît out of me.


----------



## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ok. that confused the shît out of me.



You're welcome.


----------



## ziggy84 (Dec 18, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> This so called "abuse" has done nothing but help me become a better photographer.



I agree. Being a newbie, I think I can give perspective on this. I've only been here since November, but I have learned a lot in the time frame. Some people just need to stop being so sensitive, or just don't ask. Dude should just ignore the negative people, and use the knowledge given to you by the ones willing to help you. I've came across some of my posts where sarcastic/rude reply's have been given, and I enjoy them. I think it's good to have a little humor. I've even asked people to be brutally honest with C&C on some of my photos. Some even tell me that my photos do nothing for them, etc. I look at that as a positive! I WANT TO KNOW why it doesn't work for them. I WANT TO KNOW what I can learn from that garbage photo. The way I see it, that's the only way I'll learn. You guys sugarcoating it doesn't help me at all, other than making me feel all warm and cozy inside...Naw, I'd rather learn from my garbage.


----------



## mishele (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Mish, your new avatar has a giant rack.  I approve.


PIG!!


----------



## ziggy84 (Dec 18, 2012)

Pallycow said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > much better
> ...



LMFAO!


----------



## manaheim (Dec 18, 2012)

oink oink.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> > This so called "abuse" has  done nothing but help me become a better photographer.
> ...



Yeah, I agree.  There's good people here willing to help others grow.  I have yet to see anyone here be vulgar or downright mean to anyone.  Being too sensitive or having too much of a connection with your photos will a broken heart make.  No one grows by having people tell them that their photo is without technical mistakes.  If you really do like your photos, either don't ask for C&C on it or just let the critiquers  opinion be their opinion.  It is your photo and your art after-all.


----------



## kundalini (Dec 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> oink oink.



Yeah, yeah, yeah.  But back to the rabbit thing..........


----------



## mishele (Dec 18, 2012)

Better?!


----------



## kathyt (Dec 18, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> I read it all, every last word of every post and this thread reminded me of something I saw today. A guy driving a phone company truck with a bucket on it was working on installing new phone poles. He backed off the pavement into some mud then just sat there spinning his wheels until he was buried to the axle. That is this thread. It went nowhere fast.



Unless some stranger was so kind to pull him out and let him keep trucking along. Just like we all need to do. There are way bigger fish to fry in this world right now than to deal with this petty crap. The second-deadliest school shooting in US history just occurred where 20 children and 6 adults lost their lives, and we are worried about discussing this poo again? Come on, let's move on here. 
END OF THREAD


----------



## thetrue (Dec 18, 2012)

mishele said:


> Better?!


You should have asked invisible if you could borrow Sybil for this rendition.


----------



## ziggy84 (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> ziggy84 said:
> 
> 
> > JAC526 said:
> ...



There is a difference from being an outright dic* and C&C, right? It's called constructive criticism for a reason...


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 18, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> Pallycow said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

It seems to me that a lack of positive and constructive communication (even though we have the easiest form of communication ever, the internet) has allowed these evil incidences to continue occurring.  My original point was that I do not see any abuse happening here at TPF though some may claim there is.  I wanted to find out where it is supposedly happening so we can put a stop to it as a loving community of like-minded individuals (and only one minor incidence was cited).  

I was then chastised and told that it is a mods job to find and punish those that are abusive.  I went on to spout off that it is our responsibility to stand up to bullying and not wait for others to do so.  That includes the analog world as well as the digital world. I was also told that this is just the internet and people should learn to toughen up.  It is my position that this digital world is no different than the analog world when it comes to being sensitive to other people regardless whether we ourselves are able to simply brush it off.  This does not mean to sugar-coat but to think about how we treat others in both the internet and the world outside.  

I felt this was an important discussion to be had, not because it necessarily happens here but that I noticed the attitude towards the discussion of it was frowned upon apparently.  Seeing it mocked made me realize the mind-set of some people and their attitude towards open-communication about certain hurtful topics such as abuse and bullying.  It seems people don't like to talk about it or feel the need to.  If we don't communicate, things like these killings will only escalate.  There are definite mental issues with us all whether we admit it or not.  Unless we communicate openly, I don't see anything getting better.


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> There is a difference from being an outright dic* and C&C, right? It's called constructive criticism for a reason...



I would say yes, there is a big difference. C&C I believe stands for Commenting and Critiquing.  Both being constructive is ultimately helpful.  Vagueness does not a better person make.


----------



## kundalini (Dec 18, 2012)

kathythorson said:


> Unless some stranger was so kind to pull him out and let him keep trucking along. Just like we all need to do. There are way bigger fish to fry in this world right now than to deal with this petty crap. The second-deadliest school shooting in US history just occurred where 20 children and 6 adults lost their lives, and we are worried about discussing this poo again? Come on, let's move on here.
> END OF THREAD



Oooooooohhh.  That was a buzz kill.  Goodnight folks.  Only three more days until the end of the world.  That really sucks too because I requested a day of vaction in January.  All that accrued and carry-over time is shot to hell.


----------



## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

kundalini said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > Unless some stranger was so kind to pull him out and let him keep trucking along. Just like we all need to do. There are way bigger fish to fry in this world right now than to deal with this petty crap. The second-deadliest school shooting in US history just occurred where 20 children and 6 adults lost their lives, and we are worried about discussing this poo again? Come on, let's move on here.
> ...



I can't wait 'till Friday, soo looking forward to impending doom.  I have my ricoflex with film loaded just in case it starts with an EMP, I want to take pictures in case it doesn't happen suddenly.  The end that is.


----------



## cgipson1 (Dec 18, 2012)

mishele said:


> Better?!



*OUCH!*


----------



## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

kundalini said:


> Oooooooohhh.  That was a buzz kill.  Goodnight folks.  Only three more days until the end of the world.  That really sucks too because I requested a day of vaction in January.  All that accrued and carry-over time is shot to hell.



Well, that's your vacation then.  The end of the world.  Suppose you can't pull that accrued time out early???


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Pallycow said:


> I can't wait 'till Friday, soo looking forward to impending doom.  I have my ricoflex with film loaded just in case it starts with an EMP, I want to take pictures in case it doesn't happen suddenly.  The end that is.



Well, that is an awesome idea.  Will you have time to develop it?


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## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Pallycow said:
> 
> 
> > I can't wait 'till Friday, soo looking forward to impending doom.  I have my ricoflex with film loaded just in case it starts with an EMP, I want to take pictures in case it doesn't happen suddenly.  The end that is.
> ...



Depends how many days of doom we get.  I'm hoping it drags out at least for a few months or so, so we have time to enjoy it.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

I hope it is a spiritual revolution.  A new chance for us all.  But if it's doom...then yea....bring it on and drag it out...and photos or it didn't happen...


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## Pallycow (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> I hope it is a spiritual revolution.  A new chance for us all.  But if it's doom...then yea....bring it on and drag it out...and photos or it didn't happen...




Well if it's spiritual, and you wake up and get to work and notice a few are missing.  Might wanna grab your bible as those of us left are pretty much F'ed.

Practice your "Rapture Jumping"


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## ziggy84 (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> It seems to me that a lack of positive and constructive communication (even though we have the easiest form of communication ever, the internet) has allowed these evil incidences to continue occurring.  My original point was that I do not see any abuse happening here at TPF though some may claim there is.  I wanted to find out where it is supposedly happening so we can put a stop to it as a loving community of like-minded individuals (and only one minor incidence was cited).
> 
> I was then chastised and told that it is a mods job to find and punish those that are abusive.  I went on to spout off that it is our responsibility to stand up to bullying and not wait for others to do so.  That includes the analog world as well as the digital world. I was also told that this is just the internet and people should learn to toughen up.  It is my position that this digital world is no different than the analog world when it comes to being sensitive to other people regardless whether we ourselves are able to simply brush it off.  This does not mean to sugar-coat but to think about how we treat others in both the internet and the world outside.
> 
> I felt this was an important discussion to be had, not because it necessarily happens here but that I noticed the attitude towards the discussion of it was frowned upon apparently.  Seeing it mocked made me realize the mind-set of some people and their attitude towards open-communication about certain hurtful topics such as abuse and bullying.  It seems people don't like to talk about it or feel the need to.  If we don't communicate, things like these killings will only escalate.  There are definite mental issues with us all whether we admit it or not.  Unless we communicate openly, I don't see anything getting better.



I would also like to see this degrading abuse as well. I had the impression someone being butt hurt because of what someone(s) said about their photos, etc. 

Although, I would like to think communication will help with the violence that is happening, I don't think it truly will make a dent in it. Disturbed people will ALWAYS FIND A WAY to kill people. Where there is a  will, there is a way. Back in the day before guns were big, people used  knives. Humans overcome and adapt. Even if you got rid of guns all  together, people will find ways to make them. You can learn a lot from  history because it repeats itself. Look at this subject, and say the  subject on the war on drugs; turn back to the prohibition era, did that  work? No. Even with stricter gun laws there will always be THAT guy.  Even if THAT guy can't get his hands on a gun, he'll use a knife, or  something to get the job done. Communication does not make up for bad parenting.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I hope it is a spiritual revolution.  A new chance for us all.  But if it's doom...then yea....bring it on and drag it out...and photos or it didn't happen...



It hasn't happened for thousands of years. Why would it start now?


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

When I say spiritual revolution, I do not imply a Christian rapture or any religious connotation.  I mean a spiritual revolution in the sense of a connection between each other being stronger.  A sense of duty to provide each other with a good life in whichever way we can and not to think of ourselves first and fore-most.

I do not believe communication is the end-all solution to killing and other evils we do to each other.  However I believe more honest and open communication will lead to a world where we recognize mental health issues earlier (even in childhood) and work together to attempt to curb it and not to just hide it under the table. Not just to say and think it'll be someone else's family member that goes off the deep end.  I believe communication would have helped to prevent needless killings in the past if people would have admitted to themselves that something was wrong with their loved ones or spent more time with them.  This isn't to say the mentally-ill cannot hide their issues.  If little to nothing can be done about this through communication, then what it is the alternative?  I figure if we choose to talk with our children more, talk with each other more, we'll be more likely to see the signs of illness.  If teachers are trained to recognize illness at an earlier age (if they even can be) perhaps we can help stem some of the violence.  But if bullying, abuse and mental illness are too hard of subjects for people to honestly talk about without resorting to mockery or denial, then what chance do we have?  Is the goal here to work at protecting ourselves from those that progressed in their illness to the point they start to harm?  Is it to just not care about it at all?  What's the solution then?


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand the sentiment.  I can still hope.  On the other hand, when did it happen last? Why wouldn't it start now?  Something has to happen at some time.  Is there a specific time that it happens?


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## rexbobcat (Dec 18, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I understand the sentiment.  I can still hope.  On the other hand, when did it happen last? Why wouldn't it start now?  Something has to happen at some time.  Is there a specific time that it happens?



When the USA's economy finally collapses.

And I'm not even being sarcastic with that statement.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I desire a spiritual revolution for the world not just my backyard. 

 That would be a sad time indeed to wait for until a revolution of the spirit finally happens.  It's like discussing the mental health of someone AFTER they shoot up a mall and then kill themselves.  Waiting until something bad happens to discuss what could have been done doesn't seem to be the logical time to do so, hence my desire for open communication to happen now.  Not just a stifling of discussion because it is too painful to bear.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I want a spiritual revolution for the world not just my backyard.  That would be a sad time indeed to wait for until a revolution of the spirit finally happens.  It's like discussing the mental health of someone AFTER they shoot up a mall and then kill themselves.  Waiting until something bad happens to discuss what could have been done doesn't seem to be the logical time to do so, hence my desire for open communication to happen now.  Not just a stifling of discussion because it is too painful to bear.



Not trying to get all offensive or anything but...The Middle East...Seriously. 

Everyone else seems pretty religiously chill for the most part. But the Middle East is like "hell no we want to fight amongst ourselves as well as the rest of the world...Forever...

That's why I said that about the US. It's like the difference between waiting for the actual Santa Claus to come bring me presents, or settling for my dad half awake in his bath robe. Yes, one is ultimately more fulfilling, but realistically what are the odds of it happening...


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm not religious at all (not a christian, not jewish, not islamic, not buddhist, etc.).  I have a few friends (internet buddies anyways, photographers I met on flickr a few years ago) in the Middle East (only four) and from what they tell me about the situation over there is that there a lot of people who are decent folk stuck being around people who don't want to communicate.  People who are stuck in their ways and that's that.  No one else is right so no discussion is necessary.  Kill the infidels.  They tell me that our media makes it out to seem like its the whole area that is geared towards hate.  For all I know, they are rich and content (they are on the internet after-all.  Not something just any poor person has access to except for maybe in the USA where a lot of homeless people have internet-capable "phones") and lying to me about how the people they know feel about what's happening over there.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:
			
		

> I'm not religious at all (not a christian, not jewish, not islamic, not buddhist, etc.).  I have a few friends in the Middle East (only four) and from what they tell me about the situation over there is that there a lot of people who are decent folk stuck being around people who don't want to communicate.  People who are stuck in their ways and that's that.  No one else is right so no discussion is necessary.  Kill the infidels.  They tell me that our media makes it out to seem like its the whole area that is geared towards hate.  For all I know, they are rich and content (they are on the internet after-all.  Not something just any poor person has access to except for maybe in the USA where a lot of homeless people have internet-capable "phones") and lying to me about how the people they know feel about what's happening over there.



Yeah but regardless of religion though, their cultural stance on a lot of things is very...unrevolutionary.

There are those who fight against the powers that be but nobody discusses them, and the Western media glorifies the "bad" guys, so it's really a vicious cycle.

I watched a documentary one time about this woman on an Arabian American Idol type show. I think she was in the finals and when she began singing everything was going well, but then she started to dance and omg they almost had to forfeit her from the show.

Not saying it's right or wrong but if there is going to be a worldwide unity one side is going to have to give.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

Again, open-communication seems to be the answer in that instance as well.  Cultural differences are awesome.  Makes the world unique and adventurous.  People of all sides seem to have this tendency to believe they are somehow above others and can force them to be the way they want.  If people would rather not communicate, I'm not going to sit here and force it.  I'll just communicate and discuss issues with those that desire to then.  

Again I apologize if I offended anyone (I don't believe I have done so however) but I do have my thoughts about the world (limited as my thoughts may seemingly be) and discuss them openly and unsolicited.  They're not political in nature (or I don't think they are) and they're not religious I believe.  So I'm sure this was as good of a spot as any to try to bring up the discussion of honesty, open-communication and caring towards one another.  If anything I said during this thread is wrong, please point it out.  It may be a ruse on my part to bring about further discussion though.  Why do I even care to when it seems others wish not to?  Should I even care?  Perhaps I should just shut my mouth and take my meaningless, barely-better-than-a-snapshot photos and post them here for critique.  Instead I end up "whining" about what "cannot" be changed or should not be changed because its evolution to be the way we are.  Maybe it's because I'm screwed in the head enough to think we still have a chance for peace regardless of the killing going on world-wide.


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## pic_chick (Dec 19, 2012)

I have only been here a short while and I came here know how VERY much I had to learn and you guys have always gave very good cc and pointers I have never felt abused by anyone on here. I tend to post a photo when I feel my skill has improved (one skill at a time) and have always been helped and left with more ideas to try. I think the " I was born great now love" crowd tend to get the hammer but when you stand on dreams and pride you tend to be easy to knock over. I say let them go and keep on keeping on as we are now. Truthful helpful and way more blunt and to the point then most of the real word is now a days.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

I will keep that in mind, thank you!


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## Derrel (Dec 19, 2012)

Spiritual, soda-pop-powered revolution!!!!!!!!


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## ziggy84 (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Again, open-communication seems to be the answer in that instance as well.  Cultural differences are awesome.  Makes the world unique and adventurous.  People of all sides seem to have this tendency to believe they are somehow above others and can force them to be the way they want.  If people would rather not communicate, I'm not going to sit here and force it.  I'll just communicate and discuss issues with those that desire to then.
> 
> Again I apologize if I offended anyone (I don't believe I have done so however) but I do have my thoughts about the world (limited as my thoughts may seemingly be) and discuss them openly and unsolicited.  They're not political in nature (or I don't think they are) and they're not religious I believe.  So I'm sure this was as good of a spot as any to try to bring up the discussion of honesty, open-communication and caring towards one another.  If anything I said during this thread is wrong, please point it out.  It may be a ruse on my part to bring about further discussion though.  Why do I even care to when it seems others wish not to?  Should I even care?  Perhaps I should just shut my mouth and take my meaningless, barely-better-than-a-snapshot photos and post them here for critique.  Instead I end up "whining" about what "cannot" be changed or should not be changed because its evolution to be the way we are.  Maybe it's because I'm screwed in the head enough to think we still have a chance for peace regardless of the killing going on world-wide.



From my years of being around I have concluded that communication is great, so long as it is with someone who is open-minded, if not, your just wasting your time. 

Agent Drex: What your friend says about the Middle East is correct. Take Afghanistan for example. Downtown Kabul. People there are just like us, trying to make it another day. Although, they do live in a hostile country, not everyone there is bad. Ahmad Shah Massoud is prime example. I know that many American's have no idea who he is, or what he stood for, but he was against the Taliban and actually warned the US on the impending 9/11 attack among other things. A lot of people here in the states look down upon the religion of Islam and think everyone who follows is a terrorist. I just don't understand how people are that close minded to generalize an entire population as bad people. 

I think the idea of peace is nice, but will never happen. Too much human greed and pride for that to ever happen. Even the Bible has for told the problems happening in the Middle East today. IE The four housemen and the apocalypse and Zech 14:2.


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## ziggy84 (Dec 19, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rexobocat is correct. They are very unrevolutionary. But why should they change? Why do they need to change? I say, let them be what they want to be. These people think in a very close minded way. If something happens, it is because that is the way Allah wanted it. If something happens to them, it's Allah's wish, if it rains it's because Allah wanted it that way.


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## pic_chick (Dec 19, 2012)

if you want to change the world all you really need to do is open very very good schools that are affordable. the more knowledgeable people tend to be more open to change, has less fear/faith/whatever in god and are less likely to want to fight. Also you would need to lessen the gap between the haves and the have nots and then maybe in 100 years from (when this ball starts to really get rolling) you will have a group of people that will unit as one world....

Or you could start ww3 kill off a lot of people and wipe out whole nations and boarders set yourself up as the lord king of earth (somehow not get shot) and with a fist of iron unit the world in about 2 gen or 100 years or

 the best option we get invade from space and then you have the emey of my emey is my friend and lots of **** gets tossed out in the name of survival and one globe gov risse from the ash if we win and it takes a good hard toll on the whole of the earth


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## John27 (Dec 19, 2012)

TPF has only made me better.  Not good yet, but better.  I am appreciative of the time and talent that has been offered to me.

As I said in the other thread, I DO know where they are coming from.  It's the useless posts.  They are rarely 'bullyish', just useless.  Just a quick sarcastic one liner with nothing to add or contribute.  But, those are more annoying, than anything.

A thick skin is necessary.  You are posting your work that you are proud of for people who are much better than you to pick apart.  Compliments, pats on the back, and praise are as useless as sarcastic comments.  They contribute nothing and do not improve you at all (except perhaps affirm what you are ACTUALLY doing right, but saying nice things just to be nice, while lying through your teeth?  That's a disservice).  I think that anyone posting C&C should realize that they are asking for CRITICISM, they are asking for someone to pick apart their image and tell them how to make it better.

When I and others post, we intend to learn what we can improve.  I have been let down before.  NOT bullied, nobody was mean, it's just that I've posted pictures that I really really liked and thought were really good and found out that they had a myriad of technical issues.  THOSE are the most helpful threads, but they are a let down when you think you did well.  Some people cannot handle that let down and think they are being personally attacked.

There is a rude or snarky comment here or there, but oh well.  Happens everywhere.  I think we can go beyond it.  I wish people wouldn't, but, what are ya gonna do.  My suggestion to those who feel singled out?  Do these things;

1)  Ignore the rude comments.  Don't argue, it's pointless.

2)  Don't argue technique or facts with experienced photographers.  Whether you think it's right or wrong, saying 'That's how I wanted it to look' or 'rules are meant to be broken' or 'it's fine the way it is' in response to someone giving you a technical critique will be met with criticism.  If you are willing to engage in that discussion, then by all means.  But don't post that response, and then be unable to handle the rebuttle.  

3)  Understand that professional photography is competitive and there isn't much motivation for folks to help you.  They are not required to help you and you are not entitled to their advice.  If they give it to you anyway, listen to it, take notes, appreciate it.  Also, read through some of the other threads.  If you think your question sounds like a question that someone else asked and got a negative response, then chances are yours will also.  Be prepared for it.  (In regards to the 'How do I become a pro photographer' type threads)
No excuse for rude or hateful behavior, but, I don't think it happens as often as people think.  I could be wrong, but, technical critique or even telling someone you don't like their photo is NOT bullying.  You didn't post "Compliment this photo for me please" you posted "C&C" or "What do you think".  It would be a disservice to you to get a pat on the back from everyone.

I joined this forum because of the C&C.  It's harsh, it's technical, it's informative.  That's what I want.  My pictures suck.  I don't want them to suck forever.  They improve every time I post one that I think is good, and TPF systematically tears it apart.  Guess what?  The next one is even better.


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## boborone (Dec 19, 2012)

What I see most is Off Topic posts and snarky remarks just derailing a thread when someone might be asking a simple question about an accessory or lens or something we all deal with in the photography addiction. I don't see any abuse, but the mods may get to it before it I see it. I only log on every other day or so.

I can't find the thread now, but a guy was asking about a good low priced tripod. Spelled out his needs and budget in a concise OP. He even said that he couldn't afford a highend one and that he knew that he gets what he pays for. Then had the first 5 or so posts telling him nothing but get an expensive one. Then Derrel came in and linked to a Slik tripod that I bought because of his opinions of it and it being a good low priced option. Works great. 

Now if the OP had come in and said "I needz halp!!!!11!!11one!!! I's hav ta get a cheap tripod that works great noa!!!1!1eleven!!1" I could understand. He didn't read any about the subject, didn't search, and didn't make a good post. That's one thing I've noticed about Derrel, if the OP makes a good post looking for opinions about a subject, he helps the fella along. But it's the wading through all the OT posts in other parts of the forum that make it tiresome for me to browse this place. 

And I'm an old school OT troll on a couple other forums. But we keep our mischief to OT, and keep the rest of the site clean. That's my only problem I see. Otherwise, critique is good and people here give it in an OK fashion.


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## manaheim (Dec 19, 2012)

Wow and here I thought there was no possible way for this thread to spiral any more than it had already.


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## sm4him (Dec 19, 2012)

"This is the thread that never ends, yes, it goes on and on my friends...some people started reading it, not knowing what it was, now they'll continue reading it forever, just because...
This is the thread that never ends..." 

(with apologies to Lamb Chop, and to everyone who understands the reference and now has this song stuck in their head...  )


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## xabit (Dec 19, 2012)

Constructive feedback Express Yourself To Success » Characteristics of Good Constructive Feedback. It's as simple as that in most cases. 

If you're a newbie, you don't know who the regulars are here, you don't know what other people's skills and experience are like either. People can feel attacked when they don't know the other individuals 'credentials'. Keeping feedback as constructive as possible helps the process. Then there are some with egos, not much can be done there if they feel they're right and don't know how to take feedback onboard. Goes both ways.


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## xabit (Dec 19, 2012)

Funny enough, the next thread I went to had bad examples of feedback, some comments not constructive.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ites/309845-what-do-you-think-my-website.html


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## Rick58 (Dec 19, 2012)

Well, I can only speak for myself. I don't hide behind a monitor. I try to treat people as though we were sitting across a table and I was being asked how I like their photos. I just don't get how the cruel comments are constructive and could possibly make an individual a "better photographer" As a whole, this is a great group, but there are one or two on here that I wouldn't be sharing a beer with any time soon.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 19, 2012)

xabit said:


> Funny enough, the next thread I went to had bad examples of feedback, some comments not constructive.
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ites/309845-what-do-you-think-my-website.html



What you don't realize on that thread... is that many people have gone out of their way to try to help that OP in the past.... and all he does is argue, and deny. So there are some bad feelings there with quite a few people. Go back and read his old threads if you don't believe me.  Also posting that.. puts at least one member on the hot seat.... which is not cool!

We are all human... once you convince us you are a turd, it will take a LOT of work to convince us otherwise.


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## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> xabit said:
> 
> 
> > Funny enough, the next thread I went to had bad examples of feedback, some comments not constructive.
> ...



wait what? i see people post links to train wreck treads all the time and  noone ever seems to say anything about it... and if the OP DOES have a history of being argumentative concerning C&C, then why leave any at all? It just became an excuse to get on his thread and pick a fight with totally worthless...well, I cant even call some of it C&C, because it wasn't. just spiteful remarks.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > xabit said:
> ...



Yea! But if you want to shake your head in awe, and get some laughs... go back and read some of the initial threads! They would be funny if not so sad. Lots of tempers flying...


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## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
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damnit...speaking of train wrecks..now I WANT to go look!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
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hahaha.. I can name others if you are bored!!! Were you here for Photo Guy?  lol!


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## ratssass (Dec 19, 2012)

i like turtles


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## sm4him (Dec 19, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Photo Guy was just so much awesomeness! We probably DID bully him, but Oh. My. Goodness. if you looked up clueless in the dictionary, you'd see his avatar. 

Pixmedic: Because you are so generous to so many, I am going to give you a generous piece of advice--Do not bother to go look up those old threads Charlie mentions. Those are precious moments of your life that you will never be able to get back. 
Now, if you could read photo guy's threads--THAT would be totally worth it! :lmao:


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## cgipson1 (Dec 19, 2012)

sm4him said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



There are still there.. I checked! ( at least most of them) I think some of the more vituperative ones may be gone!


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## sm4him (Dec 19, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Guess I'll be popping me some popcorn later this afternoon and reliving the awesomeness... :big laugh:


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## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2012)

sm4him said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



I dont have much else to do lying in bed sick. except run to the bathroom. Im going to force myself out to the post office later to mail out the last two lenses that got donated to Rick58 and AgentDrex...other than that, nothing but time to read train wreck threads.


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## unpopular (Dec 19, 2012)

Well. If anyone wants to come with, I'm heading to the canyon out near Indian Cliffs sub development to take some photos.

I'll see you out there if interested. I know that this discussion is riveting and all, and hasn't ever been discussed before, so I don't blame you if you wanted to stay behind.


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## Rick58 (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Please don't force yourself on my account. I'm not going anywhere and it can certainly wait until your better.


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## Village Idiot (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> While I may be chastised for linking to this thread: I am deleting my own account I feel that a discussion is in need.
> 
> There have been a couple threads/posts other than that one indicating an abusive and clique-ish nature here at TPF. I've been going through a few of the threads started by newbies and cannot find any real abuse. I have found some sarcastic remarks that are irrelevant to the OP (I'm very guilty of doing that and I apologize) but I have found absolutely no indication of any abusive language. In my mind, abusive language would be along the lines of: "Hey there, nice photo, are you a monkey? Certainly only a monkey could sling poo that looks as good as that photo.", "Tell you what, sell your camera, buy a gun and go shoot yourself you lame duck.", "I didn't realize such a fata** could get their fat fingers into a position to take a photo."
> 
> ...



My disposable Books a Million gift card I got from my boss today *<Moderated>*.

*Let's keep things polite and professional shall we?  Last time I looked no one had appointed you the planet's sole judge of talent.*


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## Village Idiot (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Hey I just met you
And this is craaaaazy
I like your mustache
Now have my babies


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## Mully (Dec 19, 2012)

Sh!t does not stink unless you stir it.


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## tirediron (Dec 19, 2012)

Mully said:


> Sh!t does not stink unless you stir it.


Spend a warm day in a sheep-pasture and tell me if you still believe that! :lmao:


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## Rick58 (Dec 19, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Mully said:
> 
> 
> > Sh!t does not stink unless you stir it.
> ...



Sheep, pigs or cows...it really doesn't matter a whole lot... Well, pigs JUST MIGHT get the award


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## Village Idiot (Dec 19, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Mully said:
> 
> 
> > Sh!t does not stink unless you stir it.
> ...



Awe come one! Do you lose your sense of humor once you become a moderator?


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## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


> tirediron said:
> 
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> > Mully said:
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their sense of humor is fine. when they respond to something that is actually funny


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## Village Idiot (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> Village Idiot said:
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> > tirediron said:
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Sourpuss.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

Well, so far this is what I have gleaned from the posts in this thread.

1. The people here at TPF have a general air of respect for each other and a true desire to assist with each others growth (hence, my reason for staying here).
2. Some people believe that others should toughen up for honest, positive critiques and not be so sensitive.
3. The internet is just the internet and one should simply disregard the hurtful things said on it (to which I tend to slightly disagree.  There is still a need to mind our P's and Q's when communicating with each other regardless whether its across the table face-to-face or across the world keyboard-to-keyboard.)
4. That some people think the discussion in this thread is silly and needless and keeps going on and on when it should just stop(to which I also disagree, communication is important with issues that cover basic kindness towards each other.  When there is a problem [perceived or real], a talk is necessary to come to a workable solution).
5. That some are led to believe this thread is my own cry for attention (I'm not exactly sure how that came about.  If anyone that sees a problem, gets that remark thrown back at them each time when they attempt to start a discussion in the hopes something positive will come of it, will they likely be willing to talk at all?)
6. Some people look at those that are willing to talk about hurtful subjects as poo-stirrers.  The attitude that if you just leave the pot alone, all will be fine.
7. That this is not the place for such a discussion about honesty, caring towards each other and early communication before things get out of hand.
8. Some people are willing to attempt to derail a conversation that they feel is unimportant, disregarding the fact that they could just not participate if they find the discussion meaningless and unwarranted.

I'm not the one that wants to be in charge of changing the world.  I want all of us to make a conscientious effort to change the world by looking at ourselves first.  This internet is not "just the internet".  It is another important means of communication just as much as a face-to-face talk is.  The things said here on the net should not just be disregarded anymore than it would need to be disregarded out in the analog world.  Take for instance my art project in middle school.  I was being harassed by some of the other students over it.  Telling me its the stupidest thing they had ever seen, pushing me away from it, picking it up and tossing it to each other as I unsuccessfully tried to get it back.  If that happened here, it seems some of the attitude would be to just brush it off and toughen up.  Well, after they smashed it on the floor, I thought I was supposed to go tell a teacher about what was going on.  His remark to me was the same as some would have been on here, toughen up Craig, just build another one.  It took me three days to make that sculpture.  I was harassed, it was broken and I'm supposed to toughen up?  Even back then I saw that some people just don't want to discuss how to play nicely with each other.  They'd rather excuse it as a means of learning to deal with harshness instead of coming up with a real solution.  Is it not right to talk to each other?  What's the point of talking if all that will be said about the subject is that's the way it is, deal with it, there can never be any change, always was  always will be, etc.?


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## amolitor (Dec 19, 2012)

Well said, AgentDrex.

This thread has shown pretty conclusively that, while there's not much bullying going on right now, there's a pretty substantial collection of people who would cheerfully stand by and watch if it came back, while hiding behind various rationalizations. That's a little disturbing to me, but, whatcha gonna do?


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

> This thread has shown pretty conclusively that, while there's not much  bullying going on right now, there's a pretty substantial collection of  people who would cheerfully stand by and watch if it came back, while  hiding behind various rationalizations. That's a little disturbing to  me, but, whatcha gonna do?



Its no different here (I don't mean TPF exclusively, I mean the internet) than out there (the analog world).  People like to war, to create havoc, watch others do it, egg them on.  The only thing I can think that will benefit mankind is for open-discussions where people are allowed to voice their opinions and have them bounced off of and around with others opinions so that we come to a positive consensus.  

The internet is either going to aid in our destruction (through the destruction of positive human socialization by closing ourselves off so much from each other that while, yes, brushing harsh words off here can be done easily, we'll most likely progress to a point where when confrontation happens outside the internet, we'll believe we can just brush it off and ignore it) or its going to aid in a world-wide bonding that has never occurred before (one where people regardless of their place on earth can learn the same basic elements of open-communication and living together peacefully).  

We sure were able to get instagram to backpedal quickly.  Could we not get wars to backpedal eventually doing the same thing (getting together in mass through the internet to voice our concern and a warning to those who would dare tread on our desires for peace)?

Would it not first take looking at the way we treat ourselves and others?  If we think we have to change others to have peace, we must first change our own attitudes.  Then there will no reason to change others for they would have changed themselves.  How do we go about that?  The internet.  It allows us to spread messages across the globe quicker than ever.  It would take self-caring to change ourselves and do something on the internet to promote others to think about doing the same (videos showing the good works we do, participating in open-discussions about peace at places that may seem like the lion's den to do so, music that promotes bonding, etc.).  I believe peace is a great reward for doing so.


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## invisible (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> 7. That this is not the place for such a discussion about honesty, caring towards each other and early communication before things get out of hand.


I think this is exactly it. Placing this thread in the Feedback and Suggestions forum would've garnered less replies but probably all of them would've added to the discussion. The Off Topic Chat forum is not the venue for this topic, I'm afraid.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 19, 2012)

invisible said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> > 7. That this is not the place for such a discussion about honesty, caring towards each other and early communication before things get out of hand.
> ...



I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.  Is this not a topic outside of photography, hence "off-topic"?  Would the "feedback and suggestions" sub-section not be the place for feedback and suggestions for topics limited solely to TPF?  The discussion of basic kindess towards each other, open-communication and self-awareness is not limited to TPF, is it?  It is not a political topic nor is it a religious one.  I believe this is an appropriate place for it.  Would you describe why you believe this is the wrong venue for such a discussion?


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## invisible (Dec 19, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.  Is this not a topic outside of photography, hence "off-topic"?  Would the "feedback and suggestions" sub-section not be the place for feedback and suggestions for topics limited solely to TPF?  The discussion of basic kindess towards each other, open-communication and self-awareness is not limited to TPF, is it?


To answer your comment, I'm going to refer you to the title of the thread and the original post:



AgentDrex said:


> *Regarding Supposed TPF Bullies and Abuse Towards Newbies*
> 
> While I may be chastised for linking to this thread: I am deleting my own account I feel that a discussion is in need.
> 
> ...


Everything there is an invitation to discuss the way the forum works, or aspects of it  Feedback and Suggestions material. The "discussion of basic kindness towards each other, open-communication and self-awareness" is introduced much later in the thread.

I'm just suggesting my thoughts of why this thread derailed (or at least why it failed to fulfill your expectations). If you don't agree with what I'm saying, just ignore me  unless you don't mind even more derailing.


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## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2012)

invisible said:


> AgentDrex said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.  Is this not a topic outside of photography, hence "off-topic"?  Would the "feedback and suggestions" sub-section not be the place for feedback and suggestions for topics limited solely to TPF?  The discussion of basic kindess towards each other, open-communication and self-awareness is not limited to TPF, is it?
> ...



the thread derailed for the same reason it happens on any other thread....people unable or unwilling to communicate an express ideas/concerns in a civil and constructive manor.


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## ChaseH (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm new to the forum and really to photography.  I'm not new to forums in general and I'm a more experienced member of some other communities.  The so called abuse isn't bad unless you're expecting to be coddled.  Sometimes Noobs are held to an expectation of already knowing standard practices, which may also result in comments that really aren't constructive, but certainly nothing that should chase you off or be thought of as abuse.  Otherwise, the offended party should probably drop off the internet in general.  You want to see abuse?  Click on the comment section of any news source below a politically divided article.  

Thanks all for making learning curve steep here.  I hope it maintains the same path, as I still have a very long way to go.  

Cheers.


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## invisible (Dec 19, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> the thread derailed for the same reason it happens on any other thread....people unable or unwilling to communicate an express ideas/concerns in a civil and constructive manor.


We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think most people are actually able and willing to communicate in a civil/constructive manner. 

Good communication starts with properly communicating what you want to communicate about. The topic "being kind and compassionate to each other in a complicated world" (introduced in page umpteenth) definitely belongs here; the discussion about the supposedly abusive treatment of newbies belongs elsewhere.


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## terri (Dec 19, 2012)

I DID IT!!!    :cheer:   I killed the beast.....

I think this thread has gone on long enough for those who wanted to make a point, to make one.   Being a moderator I can tell you that, various definitions for what constitutes bullying aside, there is a LOT that you all don't see.   I just cleaned up a thread not even 24 hours old where a newbie was ridiculed.   It happens almost daily.   Is it bullying?  Are some members whiners for being taken aback by a less than friendly/helpful reply?   Is hiding behind the shield of "I don't sugarcoat comments!" an excuse to not edit oneself on the big old Internet, because no one can come knock on your door?

Only YOU can make that determination.  I mean, you, reading this now...use the Report Post button as often or as seldom as you wish.   TPF is a place of your own making.   Maybe take a fresh look at the FAQ's so you appreciate the angle the moderators take, since we are tasked with enforcing them.   

Till Friday, then.....


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