# Wonderful!!! Now everyone will justify working for free



## Alleh Lindquist (Dec 10, 2008)

If you have not already read David Hobby's post on working for free you can read it here. 

Strobist: Four Reasons to Consider Working for Free

Here is a response post by John Harrington
http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/2008/12/working-for-free-commentary-and_07.html


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## table1349 (Dec 10, 2008)

Would you like Brie or perhaps a nice Wensleydale with that whine??


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## abraxas (Dec 10, 2008)

Haha, what a cry baby.  Everybody's out to get you Alleh.


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## Alleh Lindquist (Dec 10, 2008)

I assume that by calling me a whiner is your way of coping out because you don&#8217;t have any real argument as to why people should do photography work for free. 

I enjoyed ruffling your feathers maybe next time you will offer up something tangible.

Oh yeah and if your one of the people that do photography work for cheap you don't get out of this one. Just wait for the day a little girl goes running by and trips on your tripod you left near the door while shooting a wedding and you get sued for everything you own because those cheap prices didn&#8217;t earn you enough money to run a real business that would have the correct insurance to cover such a claim. If you have a day job and you think its fun earning a little extra from photography you in reality are spending your day job money to work as a photographer on the weekend.


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## Dweller (Dec 10, 2008)

Here we go again...


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## abraxas (Dec 10, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I assume that by calling me a whiner is your way of coping out because you dont have any real argument as to why people should do photography work for free.
> 
> I enjoyed ruffling your feathers maybe next time you will offer up something tangible.
> 
> Oh yeah and if your one of the people that do photography work for cheap you don't get out of this one. Just wait for the day a little girl goes running by and trips on your tripod you left near the door while shooting a wedding and you get sued for everything you own because those cheap prices didnt earn you enough money to run a real business that would have the correct insurance to cover such a claim. If you have a day job and you think its fun earning a little extra from photography you in reality are spending your day job money to work as a photographer on the weekend.





You're funny-- Got more?


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## table1349 (Dec 10, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I assume that by calling me a whiner is your way of coping out because you don&#8217;t have any real argument as to why people should do photography work for free.
> 
> I enjoyed ruffling your feathers maybe next time you will offer up something tangible.
> 
> Oh yeah and if your one of the people that do photography work for cheap you don't get out of this one. Just wait for the day a little girl goes running by and trips on your tripod you left near the door while shooting a wedding and you get sued for everything you own because those cheap prices didn&#8217;t earn you enough money to run a real business that would have the correct insurance to cover such a claim. If you have a day job and you think its fun earning a little extra from photography you in reality are spending your day job money to work as a photographer on the weekend.



You want tangible then I will give you tangible.  

In the business world there are those that have a good product, identify the market for that product and sell that product in that market. They always strive to meet the demands of their customers. These are the very busy and successful individuals. 

There are those that have a product, maybe not the best, but a product that they have identified a market for and produce that product for that market. They strive to give their customers the best they can for what they can afford. They are successful because they know their business and their market.  

Then there are those that may or may not have a good product.  It really doesn't matter, because they don't understand the business side of their world and either can't market their product or don't know what market they should target their product for or have no clue as to if their product is what is wanted, and then wonder why no one buys their product.  They are the ones that cry about the sad state of the business world.  

Now you know why you never see Neiman Marcus complaining about Wal-mart.  They both understand the business world, they both understand their markets and their role in those markets and because they are so busy they don't have time to complain.


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## kundalini (Dec 10, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> ... is your way of coping out ...


 I'm confused.  Do you mean that you are singling out someone that is struggling on fairly even terms or are you implying that someone is trying to avoid one's responsibility?


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## reg (Dec 10, 2008)

Alleh,

You're the Neiman Marcus of photography. The Cadillac. The Apple. Anybody who's seen your work wouldn't question this.

Since you post here, on the internet, and post work often, I'm assuming you're a working pro photographer. You're making a living.

The person who does a shoot-and-burn wedding for $250 *DOES NOT *hurt your business. This lower-level photographer doesn't get so much as an email from a discriminating client.

So why is it that you have to post a new thread every time you see a soccer mom hook her Coolpix up to the Kodak kiosk at Walmart?


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## eyeye (Dec 10, 2008)

I am just not understanding...you dont want some people to be a pro...they need to meet some requirement set by you.  And now people cant even do free shoots to learn to be a pro?

What I am hearing here is that you just dont want anyone else to be a photographer.


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## Dmitri (Dec 10, 2008)

Think of the otters!


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## usayit (Dec 10, 2008)

No one complains about GIMP... its free... 

Perhaps Adobe should just sue GIMP for being too cheap for competition.


What it really comes to it.... If you are good enough, people will pay yah.  Those that want to shoot for free are free to do so.


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## stsinner (Dec 10, 2008)

Why don't you check your original post for spelling and grammar before you come across as ignorant while trying to lecture..  If I'm to be lectured, it had better damn well be spelled right...  Sheesh...  Oh yeah, even though our Government Schools have almost rendered excellence obsolete, punctuation also matters...


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## stsinner (Dec 10, 2008)

usayit said:


> What it really comes to it.... If you are good enough, people will pay yah.  Those that want to shoot for free are free to do so.



I second that.


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## abraxas (Dec 10, 2008)

reg said:


> ...
> 
> So why is it that you have to post a new thread every time you see a soccer mom hook her Coolpix up to the Kodak kiosk at Walmart?



Insecurity, immaturity and control issues are my best guess.


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## usayit (Dec 10, 2008)

That's a good guess....


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## Harmony (Dec 10, 2008)

I just want to throw this one in here... trying out my prophetic skills...

_This thread will end with otters. _

Now...


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## kundalini (Dec 10, 2008)

Bottle fed?



> ... trying out my prophetic skills...


My crystal ball is still in for repairs.... **note to self...... call Etheral Estimates tomorrow**


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## abraxas (Dec 10, 2008)

Well, I'm going to start working for free.

And I'll tell two friends.

And they'll tell two friends.

And they'll tell two friends.

And so on, and so on, and so on ...


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## Chiller (Dec 10, 2008)

Free smilie taking pics for free.


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## notelliot (Dec 10, 2008)

JEEEESUS, again?

Alleh, why do you feel so threatened by everything? Low self-esteem? Lack of talent?
I'm getting ready to do some pro bono work for a fashion designer. Does that affect you? No, not really. However, if you sincerely feel that people working for free is going to hinder your demographic, you'd better consider stepping up your game. That would include cutting out the incredibly pompus attitude. When you're known outside of internet forums, maybe your attitude would be justified (but still not respected), til then, keep this sh*t to your self.

Edit: Forgot to mention - be careful to listen for the "pop"

It's the sound your head's going to make as you pull it out of your ass.


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## mrodgers (Dec 10, 2008)

Oh no!  I just thought of something.  I went to a hockey game with some work buddies and I gave one of my photos to a guy for him to print and hang on his wall.  I didn't charge him for the photo!

I'm one of them!!!!!!  I'm doomed!!!


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## bigalbest (Dec 10, 2008)

Don't take everything Hobby says as gospel. While he has a lot of great ideas and has helped the information highway immensely, you still have to take a lot of what he has to say with a grain of salt. When I read the article I saw where he was coming from, but still disagree. No, you don't have to work for free, and there are other ways around this problem.

I realized recently that while my photography has finally started to approach the level I've been shooting for, my business skills leave something to be desired. And I imagine this is a common situation, because the more photographers I meet the more alike we seem to be. Your work really seems to be at a high level, but it might be time to start working on the business side of photography more than you have in the past. Remember that it takes a lot more than just great photos to pull in the customers you're looking for. Currently I am working for several local magazines and a couple prominent photographers doing location portraits, second shooter at weddings, bar mitzvahs, and even (gasp) elementary school photos and proms. My attention to detail and humble approach has been getting me requested for higher level shooting all the time, and I am finally starting to fill my schedule. No, it isn't National Geographic or Vogue but at least I'm working and in the end that's what it's all about. So don't worry about all the hacks giving their work away for nothing because it's pretty rare that anyone is an overnight success without paying some pretty serious dues. Hang in there and you'll make it if you want it bad enough.


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## Mike_E (Dec 10, 2008)

Folks, somewhere in here is a valid point.






.





Thanks for pointing out the site!


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## MikeBcos (Dec 10, 2008)

I do free photography for two charities, I guess I'm supposed to feel bad about that.


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## Alpha (Dec 11, 2008)

As a general rule, people get upset because they're defensive. Take care of your ****. Other people will do what they'll do. If you get this upset every time someone does a gig for free you'll die young of a stroke. Perhaps then we can stop talking about this.


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## benhasajeep (Dec 11, 2008)

There is a reason there are Ferrari's, Mercedes, Saabs, Fords, and Yugo's. There is a reason there are Louis Vuitton, Levi's, and Fruit of the Loom. There is a reason there is Nieman Marcus, Sears, Walmart, Dollar Store. There is a market for each. That is true economics!!! Photography is no different. There is a market for $25,000 weddings. There is a market for $5,000 weddings. And there is a market for $500 weddings or sittings. And as much as anyone can complain about it. There is a market for free weddings or sittings. Especially now that MOST everyone is worried about the economy.

Maybe someone's personal ecconomics is being hurt by the one of the other levels. But the fact is, there is a demand for each level. Supply and demand, the most basic of economics! People who only want to pay up to $500 for a wedding are only going to pay $500 for a wedding. They are not going to pay more. If no one will do a wedding for $500 they will do without! They don't move up to a $1,500 wedding photographer. They do without. Again that is basic economics! Should everyone that gets married have a good photographer. Yes, but not everyone can afford it. That's why there are multiple pricing levels for almost everything sold around the world! That is economics! 

When I worked at the college newspaper. I never heard a word from the pros at the local paper. Even though I did submit pictures to the AP wire (had to be done at their office no less). They never complained once that I was paid 1/10th of what they were and did similar work that basically under cut them (especially when putting things on the wire, directly taking possible money from them). Matter of fact they came to us several times a year to give advice and critique our work. Why, probably becasue they were secure in their job, and didn't see us as competitors but as people learning the trade.

Now maybe someone wants to move up a level. And their work is similar to those that charge at a lower level. Now I see how a lower pricing individual may hurt the other. As the products are similar. So people will go for the lower priced option. But again that is economics. If a person truely has their products marketed at the propper level. The upper and lower levels will not affect him. Except in extreme cases like prolonged good times or bad times. Then the markets will shift and either move down a notch or up a notch. Again this is economics!

And one last point and I will be quiet. Do you believe all these people doing the free work or cheap work plan on keeping their fees that low? Of course not. They are using a catch to get some initial work and get a little exposure. For those that have helpers, or employ 2nd photographers. Do you pay them full rate as you do yourself? Most I have ever met do not. So in effect that person with the helper is employing excatly what is being complained about. A photographer who is willing to work for low wages to get experience. Only difference is the Main photographer is charging full rate and making more money.


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## Chris of Arabia (Dec 11, 2008)

Here endeth the lesson....





























I think


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## Chiller (Dec 11, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> Oh no! I just thought of something. I went to a hockey game with some work buddies and I gave one of my photos to a guy for him to print and hang on his wall. I didn't charge him for the photo!
> 
> I'm one of them!!!!!! I'm doomed!!!


 

oh yep...your doomed:lmao:
  I donated 20 pics to a lady who had just wrote a book on surviving the death of her 10 year old son to cancer.  She was a co-workers wife at another office, and I have never met her.  I had one arrogant prick photographer say I should have charged her something for that ammount of pics.  I said to him....I think she has paid enough of a price losing a son. 
  The book was published and is available at Indigo, and I do not get any royalties...nothing. On the front cover, she put my name, and on the inner sleeve she has a special thank you to me. 
 Sometimes it is not the money you make from a photo, but making somebody elses dream come true.


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## LaFoto (Dec 11, 2008)

Oh  ... I photographed my best friends' entire wedding for free and made the photo book I made out of the pics my wedding present to them, as well, plus gave them a CD for prints ... Oh dear-oh dear! Thank God I'm in Germany, too far away from most of you to *really* ruin your businesses like this  !!!


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## ksmattfish (Dec 11, 2008)

It's a free market.  Competition is a *****.  It's too bad your clients can't tell the difference between your work and the freebie work.


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## benhasajeep (Dec 11, 2008)

Chris of Arabia said:


> Here endeth the lesson....
> I think


 
You bring enough popcorn to share with others?


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## Mike_E (Dec 11, 2008)

benhasajeep said:


> You bring enough popcorn to share with others?




LOLOL  Yeah!!

Boys and girls,  _*You*_ are your only competition.  It doesn't matter how much or how little someone else charges or how good or bad their work is.

The Only thing that matters is that you work to the highest level that you can achieve and that you get out there and ask people for their business.

It really is ALL on you.


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## Garbz (Dec 11, 2008)

The wedding I did for $250 at the start of the year wouldn't hurt your business. That was about as much money as budgeted for the photography. If no one steps up, the money would have gone to beers for the guests.


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## K_Pugh (Dec 11, 2008)

Have you lost work/clients due to photographers starting to offering their services for free? If yes, you're marketing at the wrong folk; If no, you've nothing to worry about.

I also don't think people will start saying: "hey, after reading Davids blog I ain't going to charge anymore, free work to all! woot!"

Be glad if they do because it'll mean more work for you.


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## ksmattfish (Dec 11, 2008)

I think consumers can discern quality and value; if they couldn't there would be no need to constantly improve the appearance of movies, TV, advertising, print media, etc...  The clients I'm working with are more knowledgeable about quality and value and technology than ever.  

I expect business to be down this year, but I won't be blaming photographers who work for free.  The blame clearly lies with the Wall Street con artists that trashed the economy, the incompetence and neglect of the executive and legislative branches that allowed it to happen, and the non-stop doom saying of the media.  If people have money to spend they will purchase quality.


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## bhop (Dec 11, 2008)




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## Lacey Anne (Dec 11, 2008)

Didn't we JUST have a thread about this? One that went on for pages? Started by the SAME person?


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## Village Idiot (Dec 11, 2008)

There is a point in there. That and a very clear example.

The whole model thing. 

But then again, you can't start out as a professional. If I've never shot a wedding before, I'm not going into my first wedding charging $2500.


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## mrodgers (Dec 11, 2008)

Just had a thought.  Location states Portland, OR, which is in the US.  Perhaps if the government is asked nicely, they can send out a bailout to the rich outragously expensive snobbish "Pro" photographers and there would no longer be a problem with people working for free/cheap.


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## Harmony (Dec 11, 2008)

Lacey Anne said:


> Didn't we JUST have a thread about this? One that went on for pages? Started by the SAME person?


 
Yes we did, yes we did, and yes we did. :er:


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## Dmitri (Dec 11, 2008)

Harmony said:


> Yes we did, yes we did, and yes we did. :er:



 But that one had otters


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## kundalini (Dec 11, 2008)

*FOR REFERENCE ONLY*


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## table1349 (Dec 11, 2008)

Well since I was the first respondent to this thread and I didn't get an answer from the OP to my question I will ask the group,  would you all prefer a Brie or perhaps a nice Wensleydale or is there another cheese one might prefer.  The other thread had otters so I thought that cheese might be nice.  


Because Brothers and Sisters, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT *CHEESUS.*


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## Overread (Dec 11, 2008)

Cheeses are our nows!




as is thread !


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## Arch (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm not sure if this thread really needs to be open still... a few good points have been made and al'otter silly talk about small furry creatures 

I'll add a point of my own to try and get the topic back on course... if not i'll lock it. 

Im in the professional Logo design industry... you would not believe what the _majority_ of internet companies charge for a logo to be designed. Most are about 4 times cheaper than me (if not more) sometimes i wonder how and why they can afford to spend any time actually designing them at such a low rate.
Does it affect me?... Not really. My website is better then theirs... my work is better than theirs...  and my service is better than theirs. My customers are always 100% happy, and by the end of the design process they know they get thier moneys worth.
The same applies to photography... iv seen it many times myself.
In fact at times i have known good photographers to increase thier rate... just for the fact that some people prefer to go with a safe bet, and they didn't want to even appear as a low cost 'cheapy service'. As long as you provide that good quality service, your payment will be justified and they will still tell thier friends and family how good you are.

When it comes to weddings, its like getting your hair cut for the end of year ball or an important party where you want to look your best... do you get the trainee to do it for free? or do you get the proper hairdresser to do it?


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## Lacey Anne (Dec 11, 2008)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Well since I was the first respondent to this thread and I didn't get an answer from the OP to my question I will ask the group, would you all prefer a Brie or perhaps a nice Wensleydale or is there another cheese one might prefer. The other thread had otters so I thought that cheese might be nice.
> 
> 
> Because Brothers and Sisters, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT *CHEESUS.*


 I can't have brie while I'm pregnant. Sad, sad day!

Some people will give their work away. Some will charge almost nothing. Some will be reseanable for the services offered. Some will way overcharge. Such is the beauty of capitalism. Don't like it, don't be in business!


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## benhasajeep (Dec 11, 2008)

Is this going to be big enough??







If I charged for popcorn and gave away free pictures, would that hurt the business?  Maybe I could charge $1,500 for popcorn and give away free weddings?  Or was that $1,500 for weddings and give away free popcorn?  Hmmm, maybe I should have thought more about this before I posted.  Sorry.


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## Enough Already (Dec 11, 2008)

Might I suggest you call these photographers yourself and air your discontent with them instead of doing it here, time and time again. Ive been watching this forum for some time and when I joined I told myself I would not get wrapped up in all the BS that can be associated with forums like these, but the tip of my tongue has almost gone gangrene from biting it for so long, I had to say something. Your attitude screams insecurity. Just do your job and dont worry about all the other stuff that is going on out there. You alone, can not control it. No one can. Focus your energy on your business, not what other photogs are doing, they are not concerned about you. Get over it, and get on with your life. Its that simple.


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## notelliot (Dec 11, 2008)

bhop said:


>


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's the best GIF I've EVER seen, and what a perfect thread to use it in.


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## Jedo_03 (Dec 12, 2008)

Depends what you mean by "free" - as opposed to "not-for-profit" - as opposed to "bartering", and "buddy-deals" and "that's-what-friends-are-for"... Not to mention "portfolio-building", "practicing" &c, &c...
Someone mentioned "charity work"... 
Some of the folk in my town take part in Student Exchange programs and host - in their own homes, young people from all over the world - for a year... And when that young person returns to their home country, another young person from somewhere else comes to stay - for a year, and so on... (As an aside - I've not heard of any local hotel or motel owners complaining re loss of business - <grins>...) Anyways, this year, they decided to have a Debutante Ball for the young boys and girls - booked the local photographer (she was 'kind-enough' to offer a cut-price rate of only $1000 (Aus) to cover the Ball and Presentation) - (How's that for 'undercutting'...??) Then, a whole two weeks before the Ball, she apologised and pulled out... (We found out afterwards she had accepted a wedding at a big city 500 kms away... but that's business...)
Enter me: friend of a friend: panic call: side-opportunity to take host-family shots after the Presentation, gorgeous gowns and Tux suits and smiling host-family members. Cover the Presentation ceremony and the Formal Waltzes for FREE, make a little lens money with the family packages...
So everyone was happy - Student Exchange organisors, host families, exchange students. I didn't charge "photography rates" for the strobe shoots - didn't even make enough to buy a mid-range lens... But, NOW... I have 20 or so families that have adopted me as their 'family photographer'... Family portraits, child portraits, Engagements, (No - I won't do weddings as the first shooter - but happy to cover pre and post...) Maternity, Newborns, 3/6/9/12 month baby shots...
So there you go - Did I do the Deb Ball for "free" - or was it a wise (and profitable) marketing strategy...?
Free...??? - or Carpe deum...???
Jedo


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## Gomes (Dec 13, 2008)

If i wanted money id be a doctor


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## Jedo_03 (Dec 13, 2008)

Gomes said:


> If i wanted money id be a doctor



What makes you think there's a profit in Medicine..?
Spread over the 5 years of Uni-Undergrad... 6 more years of Post-Grad, Resident, Registrar, Application to FRCP/S etc etc - you are better off driving trains...
Jedo


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## monkeykoder (Dec 13, 2008)

I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value.  A better approach to getting experience would be to attend workshops and shoot friends (which is entirely different than shooting anybody else for free) until you have built up a quality portfolio.  Of course I may be totally off base as I'm nowhere near a pro.  

P.S.  In all truth I really don't see a financial benefit to having a graduate degree period the cost benefit analysis says it barely pays off in the long run if you can get a job at that level and we already produce more people at that level than can be employed at that level.  If you're thinking about getting that level of degree for the money don't bother.


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## lids369 (Dec 13, 2008)

if your good at something, never do it for free


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## monkeykoder (Dec 13, 2008)

Free of course is a relative term.


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## tirediron (Dec 13, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value.


 
Absolute ********!  Let's look at a couple of examples.  A friend of mine is going through some tough times financially.  He needed new brakes on his car.  He had [barely] enough money to afford the parts, but not the labour.  He brought me the parts, and I gave him 4 1/2 hours of my time to put new brakes on his car.  That work would have cost him over $400 at a garage.  I'd say there's definitely some value in that free work. 

I'm going to shoot a wedding in the spring for free.  Why?  Because, like many young couples starting out, they don't have a lot of spare money, nor wealthy parents.  This gives them their pictures free, and means I don't have to go out of hand for a wedding present.  

I'm not taking away from anyone because if I hadn't volunteered to do it, they would have just relied on whomever brought cameras to the wedding sharing their photos.  I think free work is some of the most valuable of all!


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## monkeykoder (Dec 13, 2008)

Okay this is what I have to say.  Number one I don't consider what you're doing working for free.  With established relationships there is an exchange of products and services what you're doing is merely a part of that exchange.  If you were to do the same job for someone that was not your friend you WOULD be devaluing mechanics if you were to do it for free.  The only difference is that one experience with a screw up from a bad mechanic is a lot more costly (financially) than a screw up with a photographer.  In conclusion helping a friend isn't working for free.  If someone isn't looking to profit from your work (that you would do for free) there is some leeway there but you would have to be careful.  If they intend to profit from it GET YOUR SHARE.  As for the case of the wedding I think of it in the same way as you doing work on your friends car, it is an exchange (I of course assume there is a reason you're going to the wedding and would have planned on bringing a gift).  Like I said earlier free is a relative term.


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## table1349 (Dec 13, 2008)

lids369 said:


> if your good at something, never do it for free




Gee, I'm good at being a friend to others.  How much should I charge???


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## table1349 (Dec 13, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value.  A better approach to getting experience would be to attend workshops and shoot friends (which is entirely different than shooting anybody else for free) until you have built up a quality portfolio.  Of course I may be totally off base as I'm nowhere near a pro.
> 
> P.S.  In all truth I really don't see a financial benefit to having a graduate degree period the cost benefit analysis says it barely pays off in the long run if you can get a job at that level and we already produce more people at that level than can be employed at that level.  If you're thinking about getting that level of degree for the money don't bother.




Sorry but I disagree with your assessment.  What the OP is really trying to say is if you are doing work for free then the OP basically thinks your work has no value.  My next question would be if the work has no value then why is the OP worrying about it.  The contradiction here seems to indicate that there is value to the work and that make the OP is feeling threatened. Thus the several threads that have been started by the OP all with the same basic premise.


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## abraxas (Dec 13, 2008)

lids369 said:


> if your good at something, never do it for free



Didn't the Joker (Heath Ledger) say that in Batman?

Here's a good one from Mars Attacks...


> Why can't we all just join hands and get along?


... and then the President (Jack Nicholson) gets gutted.


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## Joves (Dec 14, 2008)

Ah here we are again. And I must say it is just a fact in life htat people will do many things to irritate you. Just learn to live with it.


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## table1349 (Dec 14, 2008)

Joves said:


> Ah here we are again. And I must say it is just a fact in life* htat* people will do many things to irritate you. Just learn to live with it.




Yeah that is so true.  Like misspelling a simple word like *that.*


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## ksmattfish (Dec 14, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value.



What is also being implied is that the clients can't tell the difference between the work delivered by the pros being put out of business, and the amateurs running around doing it for free.  The pros who are suffering don't want to talk about that, because then it puts their problems right back in their laps where it belongs.  They'd rather pretend that people aren't clever enough to tell if they like a photo or not.  

If anyone can do the job, then the job won't command much pay.  That's the way free markets work.  To show value you have to be able to demonstrate why it's worth paying more for you.  If you can demonstrate this you will have no problems getting clients.  There's a kid in my neighborhood that will mow lawns for $10; he doesn't seem to be putting the big landscaping companies out of business nor reducing the value of their services.

As one of my local pro photographer heroes once said "Another busy weekend.  I'm tired of working so much; I guess I need to raise my prices."  And how did that old T-shirt go?  Something like "Soar with the eagles, or hang with the turkeys."

Times are tough, and people are much more value savvy than they are given credit for.  The competition will only grow.  If a photog's portfolio can't compete with the local hobbyists' portfolios it's time to consider another career.


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## Joves (Dec 14, 2008)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Yeah that is so true. Like misspelling a simple word like *that.*


 Hey some days I operate in typoVision.


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## confused_in_the_darkroom (Dec 15, 2008)

i've read a fiew of alleh's posts before and i've noticed patterns.

She posts once or twice then never again once people have resisted her. And It's always the same topic when she gives us more of her bs. I think she is insecure and a drag. If she's as good as she supposedly is then why does she care? or is she just a grouch?


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## Harmony (Dec 15, 2008)

I've always thought of Alleh as a guy...


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## notelliot (Dec 15, 2008)

Alleh is female? hahahahahaha wtf. 

PS - Why hasn't this been locked?


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## greyhoundman (Dec 15, 2008)

The profiles on Model Mayhem and other sites list Alleh as male.


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## Alleh Lindquist (Dec 16, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value. A better approach to getting experience would be to attend workshops and shoot friends (which is entirely different than shooting anybody else for free) until you have built up a quality portfolio. Of course I may be totally off base as I'm nowhere near a pro.


 
He pretty much has it right. No I am not posting because I think I am losing work to people shooting for free. Yes most clients can tell the difference in quality. This has nothing to do with me. You don't have the be the best of the best once you feel you are good enough to start charging you find those clients that don't have as much money and you shoot for them. But when you start out and you are looking to make $50 here and $100 there you are pretty much screwed because you or someone just like you is doing it for free and hey maybe your work is a tad bit better but hey a tad bit aint worth paying money for when you can get it done free. 

It is the middle ground of photography that is being eroded away not the high end making it far harder for people to get started. So if you are on here bashing me and you have hopes and dreams of being a pro someday good luck because remember your competition will be working for free.

It will also rarely result in paid work. Yes I hear all the stories and yes their or certain circumstances when it could be they best thing you ever did and end up booking all sorts of paid jobs from it but it is rare and only you can judge those opportunities when they arise. When I was first starting out I figured I would shoot some portraits of friends for free so I can try and book some jobs from it. I did about 4-5 friends for free and the emails poured in from a bunch of people because other people really liked the photos. I offered to do the same thing for $50 for all these inquires but nobody even responded because I had already put the value of my work at zero so even though $50 was cheap it was a huge price increase from free and nobody would pay it. A few months later someone finally did a shoot with me for $50 and I had 4 inquires from that shoot I offered up the same thing and booked 3 of those people. Same offer just different circumstances. 

If you didn't read John Harrington's post and you are responding to my original post I suggest you go back and read it as anything you say has no bearing unless you took the time to read the argument.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

I do however find myself having the urge to shoot friends for free I just don't plan on getting any clients from it unless of course they see the images in my portfolio and like them then there is no need for them to know how much I was paid to do them.  It gives me a chance to build a portfolio which really is my entire purpose.


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## mrodgers (Dec 17, 2008)

> I think the main point being made by the OP is that by doing the work for free you're basically saying that your work has no value.


Perhaps my work does have no value.  I do this for fun, I have a cheap camera, I like my photos for me, and my family is going nuts over my photos.  But in comparison, I am not producing extremely quality shots as I've seen posted here sometimes.  Whether that is because of my cheap camera obviously not having the quality that you have with your extremely expensive equipment or it's my general shooting skills that is lacking, if someone wants one of my pictures to print out, I would give it to them.

I went to a hockey game with some coworkers.  I had a wide shot of the arena that a friend wanted to print.  I gave him the photo to go have printed.  It was when I first started and wasn't as good of a shot that I could take now with more knowledge, but it is hanging in 11x14 inch size in his basement right next to his other arena picture (Joe Lewis Arena and Mellon Arena, at the time, neither knew that our Penguins would be playing the Redwings in the Stanley Cup.)  I teased him about charging him $100 for a print, but gave him the photo.

I guess I'm a horrible horrible person having a blast shooting the hockey game all night long and giving him the photo....


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## usayit (Dec 17, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> But when you start out and you are looking to make $50 here and $100 there you are pretty much screwed because you or someone just like you is doing it for free and hey maybe your work is a tad bit better but hey a tad bit aint worth paying money for when you can get it done free.



If you haven't figured it out as an independent business man... that's business.  Quality of final product versus cost.  The goal is to have a enough quality in  your final product that you rise above those that charge nothing or very little.  The rest of us (me included) either continue to shoot for free or charge very little (happy doing so).   

If that's too complex.. let me make it simple:

Rally your government representatives and make shooting for free illegal in the U.S.  Then I'll stop.    Go ahead.. I'll be waiting


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## abraxas (Dec 17, 2008)

So it looks like the OP is damning people for doing the same thing he/she/it did.


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## bigtwinky (Dec 17, 2008)

abraxas said:


> So it looks like the OP is damning people for doing the same thing he/she/it did.


 
Good point.

Do as I say, not as I do.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

What he is saying (and most of you seem to want to ignore) is that shooting for free is not very likely to get you paid jobs it can but it isn't likely.


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## usayit (Dec 17, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> What he is saying (and most of you seem to want to ignore) is that shooting for free is not very likely to get you paid jobs it can but it isn't likely.



Internships and apprenticeships often are unpaid but are also good paths into a profession... do you think the OP includes those too?


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

Most internships that seemed worthwhile are actually paid as a matter of fact unless used for college credit it is illegal for them to be unpaid.  Apprenticeships also legally have to be paid.  Only through an accredited institution of learning can you get around minimum wage laws in the United States.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

Just for clarification this means no internship/apprenticeship provides no compensation it will come either in the way of college credit or in the form of money.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

On another note most of the people I've talked to about the unpaid/college credit internships say it was the biggest waste of their time ever.


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## JerryPH (Dec 17, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> Most internships that seemed worthwhile are actually paid as a matter of fact unless used for college credit it is illegal for them to be unpaid.  Apprenticeships also legally have to be paid.  Only through an accredited institution of learning can you get around minimum wage laws in the United States.



Illegal or not... change the word from internship to mentoring, and all of a sudden the amateur should be paying the pro for sharing HIS knowledge!  

BTW, outside the USA, internships are not legally binding guarantees of being paid anything except the knowledge you can carry out with you.

I apprenticed (*another* word for the same thing... lol) under a pro, but payment was totally optional.  I did not get paid the first 2 times I did a wedding.  Third and last times I was paid substantial amounts.


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## usayit (Dec 17, 2008)

Do you consider Shadowing a wedding photographer an internship/apprenticeship? 

From what I've seen, internship/apprenticeship or working as a pupil underneath a professional photographer was one popular way to gain work experience....  most worked for nothing...

I've shadowed a couple and no way would I feel comfortable asking for $$ in return for the experience.


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## monkeykoder (Dec 17, 2008)

It may be different in the world of trades vs professional as I only have knowledge of internships in the professional world all of which are paid if they're worth anything.  The number one internship program in my mind would be Project Pipeline which is an internship program for high school teachers.  The only difference in pay between someone in this internship and someone with a credential is the cost of tuition.  

One of my points not sure if it is the OP's point is that the free work is still saying you believe your work has no value or that the value of your work is equivalent to the value of the experience in the cases mentioned above I would actually hesitate to say that you're working for free as you are gaining something you value.  The professional you are working for/with may or may not see it the same way.

If we decided to go back to one of the points of the original post again we see something that does lend credence to the idea of unpaid apprenticeships.  Assuming the person you're working with is getting paid your apprenticeship is not devaluing you as a photographer as no one is recieving final product from you for free.  

I do believe the article the OP linked to actually did say that apprenticeships of this sort were not valuable but in my opinion if they do do harm it is probably small enough amounts as to easily be recovered from. 

Another note I do believe there is a marked difference between an apprenticeship and an internship.  Internship tends to be an apprenticeship in a professional (read only requiring degree into this) job while apprenticeship tends to have the connotation of being in a trade field (read certificate or just no degree).


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## eyeye (Dec 17, 2008)

thank goodness you are so much smarter then everyone else.  Must be a total relief for you.


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## Joves (Dec 17, 2008)

eyeye said:


> thank goodness you are so much smarter then everyone else. Must be a total relief for you.


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## Jklersy (Dec 17, 2008)

I thoroughly read both the first and second link and watched the movie at the end.  When it comes down to it your just offended that the amatures work was "acceptable" where as yours is superior and I dont know about you but I would take acceptable for free long before I would pay for exceptional.  

The pro's who are getting hit are obviously not selling themselves well enough.  How many people do you think took a free photographer, got burned, and went back to their reg pro? 

I cant wait to do some free photos!  It will be a blast.  It not only will be a blast for them but for me as well.  and if they dont like what the end result is, then they can go and pay for diff photo's.  i give no false hope of pro set ups or studio quality, but i do a heck of a lot better then the lead singers point and shoot, lol.

GL with you anti "fun for free" photog!!  hope the guy who took your work sucks!!


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## abraxas (Dec 17, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> ...
> 
> ... Just another example of a complete misunderstanding of what I was trying to discuss.



How do you mean?


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## usayit (Dec 17, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I guess I should leave the more advanced topics for a more professional place because if you have not worked as photographer it can be hard to understand the business side of it




Photographic side?. Perhaps

Business side?  I think you are the one that doesn't understand.


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## table1349 (Dec 17, 2008)

abraxas said:


> How do you mean?



Not everyone agreed with him like a flock of good sheep should with their "shepherd."


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