# Help me buy flash.



## PixelRabbit (May 30, 2013)

Ok so this worked so well with deciding on my new lens I'm going to try it again with flash.

Budget is approx. $500 for at least one flash unit, if it is in the budget to do two units if there is a quality aftermarket option that I won't regret I'm up for that.

I'm open to any brand and want the biggest bang for my buck, I want the flash off camera so any accessories required to do that need to be factored in.  

It will be used on a Canon 60D.

I'm brand new to the world of off camera lighting and as with the new lens purchase I'm on a serious learning curve here.

Thanks in advance all!


----------



## runnah (May 30, 2013)

Get which ever one has pc ports for remotes. Because once you start playing with flashes you are going to want pocket wizards.


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

runnah said:


> Get which ever one has pc ports for remotes. Because once you start playing with flashes you are going to want pocket wizards.




Not necessarily if you get a unit that has an optical slave.  You might consider these.  They are fully manual (i.e., no e-TTL capabilities), but they have an optical slave so when one fires it automatically sets off the others that are set to "slave" mode.

Highly reliable and inexpensive.  I own 4 of them.

Amazon.com: Yongnuo YN-560 II Speedlight Flash for Canon and Nikon. GN58.: Camera & Photo


----------



## cgipson1 (May 30, 2013)

Ok Wabbit, before I make a recommendation... what you do want to do with it? Do you want TTL capability on the flash? Do you want TTL capability on the OCF? Subjects you think you will shoot? What do you envision doing? Portraits? Couples? Macro? WHAT?????  

$500.00 is minimal for a good setup... One top end OEM (Highly recommended) flash will cost nearly that! 

Do you need portability? If not...  go with monolights! Even they are portable with a battery back.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 30, 2013)

First thought... OEM flash (can't afford the 580 $600.. which I would prefer... so 430 $250)    Amazon.com: Canon Speedlite 430EX II Flash for Canon Digital SLR Cameras: Electronics

TTL capable radio flash triggers.. good reviews... $85  Amazon.com: Yongnuo YN-622C Wireless TTL Flash Trigger for Canon 600EX RT 580EXII 430EXII: Camera & Photo

OEM flash will have the BEST TTL Compatibility and build quality will be far better than the 3rd party stuff. If you want to go cheaper... I do recommend the Yongnuos... they are pretty good (Not OEM quality) but decent.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 30, 2013)

Or you could go with the Adorama Flashpoint monolights or similar... $99  

Amazon.com: Flashpoint II 320M, 150 Watt Second AC / DC Monolight Strobe.: Camera & Photo 

with a light stand $40 Amazon.com: Flashpoint Heavy Duty Pro 9&#39; Air Cushioned Black Lightstand, 5/8" Top Stud with Reversable with 3/8 & 1/4x20 Threads.: Electronics 

and a decent brolly $75 Amazon.com: Photek Softlighter II, 46 inch Umbrella with Diffuser.: Electronics$ .. all just over $200.

Of course you are in Canada... don't know what is available there... or shipping...


----------



## PixelRabbit (May 30, 2013)

runnah said:


> Get which ever one has pc ports for remotes. Because once you start playing with flashes you are going to want pocket wizards.


See that's the kind of info I need, never would have thought of that, thanks Runnah.


jwbryson1 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Get which ever one has pc ports for remotes. Because once you start playing with flashes you are going to want pocket wizards.
> ...


Thanks JW, I have that on the shortlist but wasn't sure if there was an argument against going that way.


cgipson1 said:


> Ok Wabbit, before I make a recommendation... what you do want to do with it? Do you want TTL capability on the flash? Do you want TTL capability on the OCF? Subjects you think you will shoot? What do you envision doing? Portraits? Couples? Macro? WHAT?????
> 
> $500.00 is minimal for a good setup... One top end OEM (Highly recommended) flash will cost nearly that!
> 
> Do you need portability? If not...  go with monolights! Even they are portable with a battery back.



Hey Charlie, ok basically since I don't know squat about the different effects of flash and what e-ttl does the best I can say is I want to get the light into different positions and at different output powers for macro, creative, and nature, and probably someday people.  All round capable flash.  I'm reading up on it now trying to get up to speed a bit, this came out of the blue so I haven't done much research yet and prior to now I've avoided learning about flash in depth because you don't miss what you don't know right? I think knowing what I COULD be doing and not being able to do it would have been painful :meh:.

Yes I need portability for sure since a lot of what I shoot is outdoors.

Does that help?


----------



## amolitor (May 30, 2013)

There are several TTL flashes out there built be respectable third parties that run under $100. You can get "auto" flashes for about the same price that tend to be more flexible when you're NOT doing TTL, by won't do TTL. You can also spend.. up to infinity dollars for, basically, more power, and (uh, usually) more reliability.

You can spend as much money as you like on light modifiers, or you can fabricate your own. How do you feel about sketchy taped-together cones of newspaper and so on? Homemade modifiers are never going to be as good as boughten ones, except in very special circumstances, but they're pretty much free.

$500 is a big budget for a guy like me -- I fabricate modifiers, and I tend to shoot things that are pretty small so I rarely have a problem with insufficient power. Honestly I probably STILL have spent $500 on strobes and related stuff over the last decade. That does include replacing broken stuff.

$500 is a minuscule budget for a lot of people. If you need quicker setup. If you need more power. If you need multiple strobes working together with TTL. And probably 100s of other excellent reasons.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 30, 2013)

If you really want portable.. then I would go with the Canon 430 and Yongnuo flash triggers I listed above. The Canon is worth the money.. and you only need one flash to learn with, so get the best (best other than Nikon, that is!  )

that and a lightstand.. and a umbrella or brolly (43" minimum preferably, 60" is better) and you are good to go. For macro.. I would recommend one of the small fotodiox softboxes ( I use them often)

It is much easier to learn with good gear, and easier to get professional looking results with good gear!

I wouldn't worry about the PC cord remotes... there are adapters available if you ever need to go that route. They are not used that much anymore since wireless has gotten so reliable.


----------



## JacaRanda (May 30, 2013)

I agree with what Buckster says here http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/canon-accessories/266649-430-ex-ii-vs-off-brand-flashes.html

I wish I would have gotten two Yongnuo 565ex flashes instead of getting the 430ex, especially for the price I paid for it.  I also use the Yongnuo triggers Amazon.com: Yongnuo RF-603 C3 2.4GHz Wireless Flash Trigger/Wireless Shutter Release Transceiver Kit for Canon 1D/5D/7D/50D/40D/30D/20D/10D Series: Electronics with the 60D.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 30, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> I agree with what Buckster says here http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/canon-accessories/266649-430-ex-ii-vs-off-brand-flashes.html
> 
> I wish I would have gotten two Yongnuo 565ex flashes instead of getting the 430ex, especially for the price I paid for it.  I also use the Yongnuo triggers Amazon.com: Yongnuo RF-603 C3 2.4GHz Wireless Flash Trigger/Wireless Shutter Release Transceiver Kit for Canon 1D/5D/7D/50D/40D/30D/20D/10D Series: Electronics with the 60D.



That is good info... I have not used the TTL Yongnuos (especially the Canon version) so hesitated to recommend them. I do have a couple of their 560's I used for background lighting... and they work well.


----------



## PixelRabbit (May 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone, while the nit in me would love to fill my bag with just Canon and it's a very very strong nit, I'm leaning towards two Yongnuo 565ex's and the Yongnuo YN-622C trigger. 

 If it was a case of quality over quantity I would go with the Canon 430 or even stretch the budget for the 580 without question, but from everything I'm reading the quality and capability of the Yongnuo's is close enough to justify going that way to get two flashes.  I can probably even wiggle some room in there for perhaps a modifier or softbox of some description but otherwise Andrew I'm with you, I like to tinker around with making my own stuff and have a couple reflectors I have made out of wood and material I have laying around here.

Anyone have a good reason to not go this route? .... 

I'm starting to get excited by the possibilities this will open up, I can finally get into Strobist!


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> I'm starting to get excited by the possibilities this will open up, I can finally get into Strobist!



You will NEVER look back.  Too much fun, dammit!


----------



## IByte (May 30, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Ok so this worked so well with deciding on my new lens I'm going to try it again with flash.
> 
> Budget is approx. $500 for at least one flash unit, if it is in the budget to do two units if there is a quality aftermarket option that I won't regret I'm up for that.
> 
> ...



SB-910 whoooohoooo...oh wait you're a Caron Bunny.


----------



## PixelRabbit (May 30, 2013)

Ok, question, is there anything I can't do with the Yongnuos and that specific trigger that the Canon can?


----------



## Qveon (May 31, 2013)

IMO (I have 5 speedlights) if I could go back I would have got a canon 430exii for portable and TTL and a flashpoint 620m with battery. Cause I like the portability of the speedlights but having to have a ton of batteries, kinda annoying. But the monolight with battery pack gives you some portabity and lots of power and you plug it in at home while you are playing to solve the battery annoyance and a platform with a lot of light modifiers


----------



## Qveon (May 31, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Ok, question, is there anything I can't do with the Yongnuos and that specific trigger that the Canon can?


The 565s do not do high speed sync


----------



## Gavjenks (May 31, 2013)

The 430 EXII has everything you really need.  580 is mostly just luxury finishes added on and 35% more range, but it's nothing AT ALL to worry about or feel guilty for not investing in, if you have an overall budget of $500.

But I'd still suggest an OEM flash, so I'd say the 430 EXII is a solid core piece in your lighting setup.  It can do a whole lot for you in the field when all you carry is one flash, while also being your main and more flexible workhorse for the studio setups as well.  Takes up half your budget.

For the remainder:

1) $100 A cheaper flash.  Maybe some sort of off brand legit-style flash that actually has buttons and settings that work reliably.  OR get a nicer $150ish dollar off brand flash x 2 instead of the 430 if you want, whatever (I can't really say the OEM will actually do anything magically and amazingly better than ANY possible 3rd parties.  But at $500 you're going to be jury rigging and compromising a lot, so if it were me I would still treat myself).

2) $20-30 A really cheap flash (like a Holga flash) for those rare occasions (rare early on, I mean) when you want three independently moveable lights. Don't even worry if it has NO controls on it. You can just move it closer or further, throw it around, tie it up, duct tape it to walls, etc. and not worry about it cause it's like $20.  But it will add flexibility to your rig when you need it at your price range.

3) $35 Radio control equipment + a little hotshoe extender with a PC port + a PC cable. Search on Amazon for radio remote flash equipment, and you can easily meet this price estimate. These will give you the ability to have one flash on your hot shoe and then attach the PC cord to the radio transmitter (rubber banded to your main flash) which triggers the other two.  I prefer this to light-sensitive slave flashes, because it will work through solid walls and never gets confused, and is just generally more flexible for weird setups.

4) ~$25 Probably some sort of legit, purchased (for ruggedness if nothing else) diffuser that you can keep in your bag for when you don't have time to jury rig something, and need instant reliability.  For most other things, though, when you do have time, use homemade stuff with your budget.  I think it's absolutely silly to spend $100 for a sheet of cheap white fabric or whatever, unless you're a high end pro.

5) ~$40 You'll probably want a couple of little dedicated tripods + a couple of umbrellas for attaching your flashes to in studio or carefully constructed creative setups.  Two is plenty to start with, and these are dirt cheap yet still plenty effective.

Total = almost exactly $500


Note: the above is designed to give you the most complete and flexible self contained rig system I can think of for $500, with the intention of you not outgrowing it for a very long time.  If you are the sort of person who likes to buy really nice stuff one part at a time and then build around it piecemeal, this is not the list for you.


----------



## Buckster (May 31, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> I agree with what Buckster says here http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/canon-accessories/266649-430-ex-ii-vs-off-brand-flashes.html
> 
> I wish I would have gotten two Yongnuo 565ex flashes instead of getting the 430ex, especially for the price I paid for it.  I also use the Yongnuo triggers Amazon.com: Yongnuo RF-603 C3 2.4GHz Wireless Flash Trigger/Wireless Shutter Release Transceiver Kit for Canon 1D/5D/7D/50D/40D/30D/20D/10D Series: Electronics with the 60D.


To update, it's now been a year and a half that I've been using this same setup in direct conjunction with and comparison to my two genuine Canon 580EXII speedlites.

The two Yongnuo YN-565EX flashes and RF-603 transceivers have worked out truly wonderfully for me, even directly compared to my much more expensive name brand gear.

As mentioned above, they don't do Canon HSS (high speed sync), but honestly I don't use that feature, so it's not been an issue for me.  When I need high speed in association with my controlled lighting, I use the speed of the flash(es), not the speed of the shutter.  If that's something you'll need however, you can go with the genuine name brand or still save a pile by going for a third party flash that has that feature, and yes, Yongnuo makes one.

You'll find people who claim that the genuine name brand is so much better in so many ways; built better, better quality, better operation, more reliable, etc., but that hasn't been my personal experience at all.  Just the opposite, in fact, and I'm actually working with both and have been comparing them directly every day for the past year and a half.

So, the YN-565EX goes for about $160 each at present.  Get two and you're up to $320.

The RF-603 transceivers are about $30 a pair. Get two sets and you'll have 4 units; one for each flash, one on the camera hot shoe to fire them, plus a spare you can use on a third light later.  Get three sets and you'll have 6 units; one for each flash, one on the camera hot shoe to fire them, one in the camera's remote shutter port, and one in your hand to fire the whole shebang with as a remote shutter trigger, plus a spare you can use on a third light later - All interchangeable - they all do any/every task, without any programming.  That would be another $60-$90, putting you up to $380-$410.  Now add a couple of cheap light stands ($25 for two) and umbrellas ($30 for two 40"), and you're up to about $465 (or $435 if you get just two sets of the transceivers).

Finally, you'll need batteries unless you're already using plenty of rechargeables and have enough to cover this.  4 AA batts for each speedlight, so 8 of those ($20 for 8 Eneloops), plus 2 AAA batts for each transceiver, so 8-12 of those ($30 for 12 Eneloops).  If you go Eneloops (or other rechargeables) and you don't already have chargers, you'll also need at least one charger ($11 each for the slow trickle charge Eneloop charger), but for 16-20 batts total, 4 or 5 chargers that hold 4 batts each is more like it, or you can get chargers that hold more batts at at time, like 12, but they'll cost about the same per battery anyway.

Over time, I've also acquired 8-batt external power packs for my speedlites to extend shooting times, which adds another 32 AA batts to the cost, and have enough batts to always have all units powered plus the same number of batts charged and ready, so a total of 96 AA batts and 32 AAA batts are what I use just for my speedlite needs.  I use 8 4-batt slow-trickle chargers.  More AA and AAA batts are used to power other devices I use associated with my photography.  I don't have a total count on batts at this time, but it's technically a butt-load.

Bottom line: Just be aware of the battery issue.


----------



## PixelRabbit (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks Qveon and Gav.

Gav, thank you for taking the time to piece that together for me, while I can see where you are going with your suggestions that is a LOT of different capabilities in the flashes and a bigger learning curve than it would be with 2 of the same units.

Buckster, thank you! I was hoping you would respond and I appreciate the time you took to update your experience and especially for pointing out the battery needs, that is sure a dose of reality isn't it??
I'm going for it with the 565's and RF-603's the only question now is how many RF's. 

 I like the idea of using one as a remote trigger but I might already have the solution in my Canon RC-6 for the camera?  So if I want to trigger the camera remotely I can have the 2 flashes each in one RF-603, one RF-603 on the hotshoe on the camera and trigger the camera with my RC-6?  If that will work I can go with 4 RF-603's instead of 6.


----------



## Buckster (Jun 1, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Buckster, thank you! I was hoping you would respond and I appreciate the time you took to update your experience and especially for pointing out the battery needs, that is sure a dose of reality isn't it??
> I'm going for it with the 565's and RF-603's the only question now is how many RF's.
> 
> I like the idea of using one as a remote trigger but I might already have the solution in my Canon RC-6 for the camera?  So if I want to trigger the camera remotely I can have the 2 flashes each in one RF-603, one RF-603 on the hotshoe on the camera and trigger the camera with my RC-6?  If that will work I can go with 4 RF-603's instead of 6.


Yes, that trigger arrangement will work just fine.

I use different shutter triggers myself, depending on my needs for particular shots, like if I want to use an intervalometer or timed bulb from the remote, I'll go with a Pixel trigger I have that has those features.  If I'm set up with my tablet as a monitor, like for macros or microscope shots, I fire with the DSLR Controller app from the tablet.  For quick setups where I just want to fire the shutter directly with no "tricks" though, I tend to just plug in another RF-603 because it's handy and convenient, is all.

That said, you could save a bit more money by buying 1 set of RF-603 transceivers, plus one single unit, for a total of 3, but that third one will cost you about $23 all by itself which, while saving you about $7, isn't nearly as cost efficient as 2 units for $30.  If you ever get a third flash, you'll wish you had it, especially for the better price.

It's also worth noting that these work just fine with studio lights as well.  Whether speedlights, studio strobes, or a combination of both, somewhere in your future there's almost definitely a three light setup (or more), so if you can swing it now, that 4th transceiver is probably worth having, even if you don't use it right away.


----------



## PixelRabbit (Jun 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster, thank you! I was hoping you would respond and I appreciate the time you took to update your experience and especially for pointing out the battery needs, that is sure a dose of reality isn't it??
> ...



Perfect, I'm feeling good about this decision, I think I have a good start to learn and will be able to build on what I have as time goes on and I grow into more gear.  I don't know what I'd do without you guys!


----------



## cynicaster (Jun 1, 2013)

I was able to pick up a 580EX-II and a 430EX on eBay for roughly your budget.  Both work good as new and I love them.


----------



## Qveon (Jun 1, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Thanks Qveon and Gav.
> 
> Gav, thank you for taking the time to piece that together for me, while I can see where you are going with your suggestions that is a LOT of different capabilities in the flashes and a bigger learning curve than it would be with 2 of the same units.
> 
> ...


OK first the rc-6 iirc has to be visually seen by the eye on the front of the camera to work and has limited view. But why did you choose a pair of TTL flashes then pair them with non TTL triggers?


----------



## PixelRabbit (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks Cynicaster.

Matt, yes you are right the RC-6 has to be in front to work but I've been able to work around that so far so I think I'm cool with it for the occasions that I'll use it, I'm really a handheld kinda gal for the most part.
Thanks for catching that about the triggers, I had the right ones written down but I copied over the wrong numbers for that post, the ones I have on the list are these ones:
YONGNUO, photographic equipment, camera accessories, flash light, camera remote control, speedlite, photo equipment, LED photo light, flash trigger, camera wireless remote control, TTL cord
BUT had I not you totally would have saved me some grief! thank you!


----------



## Buckster (Jun 1, 2013)

Qveon said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Qveon and Gav.
> ...


rc-6? 



Qveon said:


> But why did you choose a pair of TTL flashes then pair them with non TTL triggers?


I find TTL most useful in run-&-gun situations, where I'm holding the flash in my left hand or using a bracket on the camera, and moving around a lot.  For that, I use a short TTL cable.

When I'm working my lights off stands with modifiers, it means I've got time to dial in my lights and don't need or want TTL.  That being the case, more expensive TTL triggers are overkill for my needs.

Nonetheless, it can still be done optically, triggered via Canon's Master/Slave TTL system.  I don't know the specifics of the body pixelrabbit uses, but if nothing else, the lights themselves will do it with one of them in the camera's hot shoe acting as the master.


----------



## PixelRabbit (Jun 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> Qveon said:
> 
> 
> > PixelRabbit said:
> ...


The Canon RC-6 is the remote shutter release I currently have, it has to be in front of the camera to work.  

Hmmm... ok I'm going to read that a couple times to see if I'm overkilling here with those remotes or ... 
I do have some wiggle room on the $500, that is a limit I set for myself and spending a little more on the triggers to be forward compatible is cool with me.


----------



## Buckster (Jun 1, 2013)

I think those newer TTL triggers have a few other advantages too, from what I've seen.  If you decide to go with them, be sure to update us later with a review.


----------



## PixelRabbit (Jun 1, 2013)

Well it's done, deeeeep breath, clicking place order always stresses me right out.

2X Yongnuo 565ex and 4X YN-622 Wireless TTL Flash Triggers are on their way for a grand total of $504.27 Canadian.

So the painful wait begins!

Thanks soooo much for all of your help and Buckster, I'll be sure to review the triggers.


----------



## Qveon (Jun 2, 2013)

Buckster said:


> I find TTL most useful in run-&-gun situations, where I'm holding the flash in my left hand or using a bracket on the camera, and moving around a lot.  For that, I use a short TTL cable.
> 
> When I'm working my lights off stands with modifiers, it means I've got time to dial in my lights and don't need or want TTL.  That being the case, more expensive TTL triggers are overkill for my needs.
> 
> Nonetheless, it can still be done optically, triggered via Canon's Master/Slave TTL system.  I don't know the specifics of the body pixelrabbit uses, but if nothing else, the lights themselves will do it with one of them in the camera's hot shoe acting as the master.


Agree, the only thing I have to add to that is if you use your TTL triggers in your studio situation listed above you can change the zoom and power of the flash from the camera which might save you opening your light modifier or having to lower/reach your lights.


----------



## Buckster (Jun 2, 2013)

Qveon said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > I find TTL most useful in run-&-gun situations, where I'm holding the flash in my left hand or using a bracket on the camera, and moving around a lot.  For that, I use a short TTL cable.
> ...


I've actually done some TTL work in-studio in the past, using both the ETTL capable Canon and Yongnuo Flashes, 7D popup flash as master or ST-E2 Commander on 5DMKII, using Canon line of sight or ETTL Radio Popper triggers.

I didn't personally find any of it to be that much more convenient, even being able to work it from the camera, and prefer to just go manual, which is why the entire Radio Popper set I have (and probably the ST-E2 as well) are about to go up on eBay.

All the modifiers I use with speedlites provide quick and easy access to the speedlite controls, so that's not been an issue for me.  Also worth noting, in studio situations, once you've got your settings dialed in for a particular lighting situation, it's a simple matter of writing them down to recreate them again later without having to experiment or dial them in again.

But that's just me.


----------

