# I want to crawl in a hole.



## wildmaven (Oct 5, 2007)

I posted my first 2 professional paid portrait sessions on a private board that my friends (yeah, right) use, and this was the only reply:

the focus isn't sharp at all
the lighting isn't proper (too many shadows)
the colors are bland ... 
looks like a basic school picture ... no wow factor

This was for these two sessions:
http://wildmaven.org/portraits/emily/
http://wildmaven.org/portraits/julia/
Yes, you've seen these before, but are they really that bad? This has shaken my confidence so much I can't even tell you how much I just want to chuck this whole business. I know, I know, if I can't take criticism, I shouldn't be in this business in the first place...


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## Big Mike (Oct 5, 2007)

Sounds like someone had some pee in their cornflakes and wanted to take it out on you.

Shrug it off and keep going.  

After another year, review your shots and compare them to what you are doing them...use that to gauge where you are at.


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## oldnavy170 (Oct 5, 2007)

Well when you just start out thats what it is......starting out!  Its not what other people think its about what you think and of course what the customer thinks.  

Like Mike said a year from now you'll look back at your photos and see what can always be better about them.  Then again when they are better then you charge more.  Thats just how it is about any business.  

You have some great photos and next year you'll have some amazing photos.

Keep your faith girl!!!!!!!!!


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## zendianah (Oct 5, 2007)

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of your photos. Is the customer happy?  Thats all that matters!!  There was one photo that EVERYONE that I showed hated it. But the customer loved it. I even hated the picture. She said it had artistic quality.. I almost puked in my mouth when I heard that. But its her picture and she liked it -- thats all that counts. Would I put it in my portfolio... OH HELL NO.


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## acaldwell (Oct 5, 2007)

oh wildmaven, they are not "that bad" as you say.  Yes, we can always improve (look at my post from this week), but everyone here is right - you just need to make sure your customer is pleased.  Obviously, we strive to get better and better and the criticism helps, but it is more motivating when the criticism isn't rude.  You are doing great, and you can't crawl in the hole right now b/c I'm in it. hahaha


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## cpd23 (Oct 5, 2007)

I would also suggest looking at the photos and taking a look at what was posted can you see anything that might be true and that may help you become a better photographer by objectively apply what was posted.  Try not to take it personally just use what you can and trash the rest

best of luck


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## wildmaven (Oct 5, 2007)

acaldwell said:


> you can't crawl in the hole right now b/c I'm in it. hahaha


 
I thought I was standing on something! :lmao:

The problem is that I have 6 booked photo shoots this weekend and now my confidence is shot. Not a great way to go into the weekend, eek.


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## Trenton Romulox (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm not gonna sit here and say your shots were great, they weren't. They're good though. There is nothing there that screams 'awesome', but the most important thing is, there was also nothing there that screams 'bad'. Don't you let your confidence be shot because people bashed on some of your shots, seriously. Let your confidence be driven by what YOU think of your work, and not what everyone else thinks of it! Suck it up and stick with it! Come on now, don't let people throw you down and the ground, and you best damn not let them keep you there!


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## wildmaven (Oct 5, 2007)

I just hate criticism without constructive advice, ya know? That's what got me. 

"_the focus isn't sharp at all_" - What do you think went wrong?
"_the lighting isn't proper (too many shadows)_" - How would you have adjusted the lights?
"_the colors are bland_ ..." - All of them? How could this be improved? 
"_looks like a basic school picture_" - This tells me nothing!


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## heip (Oct 5, 2007)

Beauty is in the eye of the buyer.


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## stellar_gal (Oct 5, 2007)

Ditto on PP.  And big hugs to you...

Just keep on shooting girl!  Maybe look at your work with an objective eye.  I imagine sometimes with a so-so image that the client says its crap and wont tell me what's wrong with it.  Then I have to think harder and I maybe only saw the sweet kids smile or something else special, but in reality it may lack some sharpness (too much coffee!) or the outfit I gave thumbs up on is just aweful in the photos.  

Just keep up your sessions, take your time, breathe and if they'll pose for 
you, it will give you a little more time to compose better and get up close to take a manual reading, ect.  Sometimes we just get in the zone and it clouds the fine details that we know we can capture, but just didnt for some reason.  Cheer up.  Happy Shooting!!


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## Garbz (Oct 5, 2007)

Criticism without constructive advice is like a book without... ok forgot where I was going. Either way there's a method to receiving critique. a) if the critique is constructive look at if it is relevant at all since it may not be, b) if it's very negative ask yourself can this person do better and do you even like their photos? They may hate yours because you think theirs are **** and thus look nothing alike ... uah hopefully. c) if it's a professional photographer who you really admire who told you that it's rubbish crawl back in the hole. d) and if it isn't constructive like the above comment ignore it and assume the poster is talking out of their ass.

Actually that reminds me there was some rude prick on this forum but I haven't seen him in ages.


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## Mike Jordan (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, you have people here to pat you on the back to make you feel better and if that is what you need, you probably will say my critisizum isn't constructive either. 

I see a few things that jump out at me on your images... 

One, you have a tendency to crop to close without having the composition to make it work. Your head shots are just to tight for how you are posing her. You need to give her some room around her head for the head shot.  

Two, you are cropping off body parts, paticularly, arms, shoulders and hands.  Rule of thumb, you should not crop at a joint... i.e. wrist, ankle, elbow, neck, fingers, etc.  

Three, a good number of the first group of the teen, you have her square on to the camera. 

On the little girl you aren't paying attention to your cropping there either. You also have her square to the camera in some but little girls like this tend to come out better than older people do. 

While I wouldn't say your focus is out, you do have a bit of softness in some of them.  It might be you haven't sharpened them enough or it could be from the compression down to screen size. You might try upping the sharping a bit more and see if that helps. 

In some of both sets your lighting is uneven, with her face being more in shadow than her body is.  

Are they bad? No they aren't. Color looks good as does exposure (other than the un-even lighting in some).  You are not that far off and I think paying closer attention to cropping of the whole image and cropping of hands, arms, legs, etc., will jump you up a several levels towards some really good images. 

I don't know what kind of critisizum your friends gave you, but one of the first things that you should learn, is to tell the difference between people that are trying to help and those that are trying to tear you down. If your friends were really trying to help you with their critiques (even if maybe they didn't know how to go into a lot of detail) then they wouldn't have been doing you any favors by patting you on the back and telling how great your imagea are. You would probably rather hear that, but really, would that help you get better?  Remember, all confidence is is the ability to hide the butterflys so people won't know how nervous you are. Some people have really learned how to keep those butterflys hidden. But they still have them. 

That's good you have more shooting oppurtunities. The best way to get better is to shoot, shoot, shoot... and then shoot some more.  Just take the time to evaluate your shooting so that each time you go shoot again, you are not making the same mistakes twice... or at least no more than 3 or 4 times. 

Both girls are cute. And you are lucky to have people to shoot like this. Have fun and good luck. 

Mike


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## tallbell (Oct 5, 2007)

Hi there darlin', I have looked at some of your shots and I think they are great. The first post I put on here, scared me to death... I got, wow akward  lighting, and wow harsh light , and then I went to view the pictures of the postee's. I felt much better after that, and after showing them to the parents $430.00 later and 2 referrals. I shrugged it off and bought studio lighting.


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## craig (Oct 5, 2007)

Tough deal for sure. There will always be critics. As time goes on you will figure out sincere thoughts on your work as opposed to someone who has read too many photography books. 

We all have moments of self doubt. That will never end. Only answer is too love your photography all the time. Know that once the love is gone the photos will suffer. 

Love & Bass


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## wildmaven (Oct 6, 2007)

Thank you, everyone. You put a smile back on this gal's face just in time for bedtime. :heart:



Mike Jordan said:


> Well, you have people here to pat you on the back to make you feel better and if that is what you need, you probably will say my critisizum isn't constructive either.


 
Actually, yours is EXACTLY what I want and need. :hug:: Without any constructive criticism, there is no learning involved. I appreciate you taking the time to go into detail.  As for covering the butterflies, if I can maintain a calm appearance when I have just seen that my patient's body is filled with cancer, I think I can fool a 4 year old into thinking I'm not nervous. :mrgreen: (I work in nuclear medicine until the golden day when I can do photography full time) 

Marian


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## zaramuni (Oct 6, 2007)

I know exactly how you feel - esp. the nervousness. One of my friends was very harsh when I first started shooting and this caused me to lose my confidence and hold off on properly charging customers for the first two years. But what everyone else says is right.....if your customers are happy that's all that matters. I finally have customers that are willing to pay me properly and they love my work. I will never do pictures for my friend - who by the way still thinks my work is crap, but then again her opinion is a lot less important to me now. What other people say about looking back at your shots a year from now is true too. Sometimes I find myself reworking old shots when I've learnt a new technique or wishing that I took shots from a different angle.


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## bellacat (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm a little late responding but what more can i add that has already been said. Keep a chin up and with time I know you will have amazing shots. We all at some point have been in the exact place you have. 

Recently I was a second shooter for a picnic function for a local organization I'm in. After the picnic was over and many people were getting ready to leave I got permission from the organization founder to set up a concept shot. The main photographer for that shoot yelled at me in front of everyone saying the shot i was setting up was going to turn out horrible and not to take it. I know the lighting was off and there was no way I could even think about using the photo in color but after some PP work it turned into a nice (not great) shot that every really enjoyed including the organization founder. While I hated the embarrassment and humiliation this person did I know she meant well and was just trying to offer advise but in the wrong way.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread but basically what I'm trying to say is that not everyone is going to like your photos. this is why there are many photographers with many styles. And we all have to start somewhere and learn from our mistakes. Just keep moving forward and try and hold your chin up. What matters most is what the client thinks and if they like or love the photo then you succeeded.


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## Mike Jordan (Oct 6, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> Thank you, everyone. You put a smile back on this gal's face just in time for bedtime. :heart:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are welcome, Marian.  I don't know about the 4 year old... sometimes they can strike terror in the strongest person. 

Mike


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## wildmaven (Oct 6, 2007)

Mike Jordan said:


> You are welcome, Marian. I don't know about the 4 year old... sometimes they can strike terror in the strongest person.
> 
> Mike


 
Hahahha...true. Luckily, today I only have adults. Tomorrow, though, I have the following: 3 year old, 4 year old, 9 year old twins, 11 year old, 7 year old, 10 year old, 12 year old, and 2 more with unspecified ages. 

While shooting today, I really tried to watch where I was cutting off the person (no cutting at wrists, elbows, etc., like you said). I also rethought my lighting and used my white backdrop instead of the black one. Can't wait to go home and process! :goodvibe:


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## schuylercat (Oct 7, 2007)

Gawd - that stinks, huh?  About 15 years ago I was invited to shoot a practice session for a racing driver named Bobby Rahal.  Rahal was very well known, a winning driver.  This was a way to get into the racing scene for me, since I was too chicken to drive.

Thing was...I didn't own a camera yet.

So...I bought a little Rebel (this was film days, you know) and a cheap lens and another cheap long zoom lens (because my friend told me I needed one) and I bought about 50 rolls of film and just pushed the button for two days.  Took hundreds of shots.  Good lord were they terrible.

The guy who asked me to go sifted through the shots (I shot reversal, not chrome, and made prints like an idiot) and his exact words were "Jesus!  These really suck!  Did you look through the viewfinder?  What am I supposed to do with this crap?"

He printed two of them in On Track magazine, not because they were good, but because they were all he had.  I got paid $40, and that was the beginning of a career.  Not a good one, either.

Some of your shots are decent, and some are not.  Hear that, believe it or don't then shrug and pick the camera back up and shoot a thousand more.  Advice?  Push the button.  Take pictures.  Thousands, hundreds of thousands of them.  Shoot landscapes, flowers, pets, the beach, garbage dumps, dog poop, and whatever ou see.  Crop it, burn it, dodge it, and throw most of it in the garbage then go...do...it...again!  You have the eye: your photos show that.  You have the touch, the gift the "whatever", now you need the experience.

I went to a seminar once.  A guy in the audience asked the photographer "how do you capture such wonderfully beautiful shots?"  The photographer said "you want to be a photgrapher too?"  The guys said "Yes!"

The photographer said "what the f%$# are you doing here, then?  Go get your f$%#ing camera and take some f%$#ing pictures!!!"

Good luck!!!


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## Mike Jordan (Oct 7, 2007)

I have to wonder why someone that is already well known and could probably get any number of people to photograph them if they asked, asked someone that didn't even have a camera or know photography to shoot his race?  It sounds like the guy that asked you to shoot learned more from that session than you did. Then again, if he didn't learn to check out his photographer first, maybe you are the one that came out ahead on it. 

While your suggestion of shooting a lot of pictures is good but saying to just go out and shoot a thousand more is not. Just the mear fact of shooting thousands of pictures is not going to make someone a photographer.  

Someone can shoot a thousand, 10 thousand or a 100 thousand and if they just keep shooting them the same way, they are all going to look the same way... with maybe 2 in a thousand being keepers. 

When a person is learning photography, the key part is the word "learning". You take some pictures and you find out what you did right or wrong. The right things you find out why it's right and keep doing them. The wrong things you find out why and correct them. You find out by reading, and going to classes and talking to other people.  Experience alone will not a photographer make.  Some people are lucky and get good shots. Some people have talent and seem to know how to select good composition, pick out the less obvious angles that make a good shot. Some have a natural ability to judge light, just like some people have hearing that is perfect for music or nerves that are perfectly steady and make a good surgon. But just having these talents will not always be enough. For a few people, yes. But not for the majority of us. 

While some parts of photography all have a common ground, each type of photography (flowers, pets, landscapes,portraits, weddings, sports, race car driving, etc., etc., etc.) can be very different and require different skills and a different knowleage set. When someone is learning photography, to try and learn it all is just going to confuse everything. What works in portraits won't work with pets. What works in weddings won't be the same as shooting landscapes. Shooting race cars won't be the same as shooting baseball.  It's all got it's own differences.  So the best advice that can be given to someone working their way up in photography... learn the basics, then learn more of an area or two until you have it down pretty good. Then learn another area and so on.  It might take someone months, it might take them years.  The more they learn the easier and faster it will be to learn. But to just go out and shoot anything and everything is not the way to go. 

It sounds like the photographer doing the seminar shouldn't have been teaching if he was telling people they shouldn't be taking classes to help them learn. 

Mike


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## wildmaven (Oct 7, 2007)

Mike Jordan said:


> While some parts of photography all have a common ground, each type of photography (flowers, pets, landscapes,portraits, weddings, sports, race car driving, etc., etc., etc.) can be very different and require different skills and a different knowleage set.


 
That is soooooooooooooo true! I successfully sell my landscape/wildlife photography, yet portrait photography, ESPECIALLY indoors with studio lighting, is so different! 



> You take some pictures and you find out what you did right or wrong. The right things you find out why it's right and keep doing them. The wrong things you find out why and correct them.


 
Exactly! Your suggestions in this thread really helped me on yesterdays photo shoot. And I'm sure you'll have suggestions about those as well, LOL, which will help me on the next one.


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## schuylercat (Oct 7, 2007)

Mike - Yours is the voice of experience - all true.  My post was meant as a "dust yourself off, eat up the criticism, and git on out there!" sort of post.  If I'd listened to the jerk who dissed my first shoot, I'd have quit right there, before I invested my kids' college fund.  It takes a cheerleader sometimes...

And if I&#8217;d listened to the guy at the seminar, I&#8217;d have burned ten thousand frames and never sold a shot.

Meanwhile, given my current situation I gladly defer to you here.  Advice is cheap, but it&#8217;s amazing how much those little &#8220;hey, try this!&#8221; hints helped me along, and the best hints come from voices like yours, not a hand&#8217;s shaking, panicked step dad hoping to get a good shot at his boy&#8217;s wedding next May.

Oh: that editor who hired me?  He was an acquaintance who was both too cheap and utterly ignorant of the peculiarities of shooting objects that move at 200 miles per hour.  He was a writer, and the best thing I learned from his is this: If classical wisdom is true, it takes a thousand words to make one picture, doesn&#8217;t it?

Wildmaven - Your post was titled &#8220;I want to crawl in hole.&#8221;  Please don&#8217;t.  More moping: There was nothing I liked more than shooting motorsports.  I got to eat lunch with my heroes, guys named Unser and Andretti and Penske.  I got to walk on famous race tracks &#8211; these were like my hallowed ground.  When I transitioned to consumer automotive I got to drive Ferraris and Corvettes and Vipers and all kinds of expensive, exotic cars (total guy thing!).  It was the finest several years of my live.  I quit.  Never made money, and I left because in the end too many editors said things like:

The focus isn't sharp at all.
The lighting isn't proper (too many shadows)
The colors are bland ... 
Looks like a basic racing picture ... no wow factor

Just want you to know you have a cheerleader who felt once like you did and finally threw in the towel.  Don&#8217;t give up.  Go tear &#8216;em up!


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