# Going pro - the sequel



## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

So I have given the prospect some thought, and I keep returning to the same ideas: real estate. I was wondering if there is a market for a marketing and advertising firm that specializes in real estate?

I'm familiar with real estate advertising, and realtors. Just kind of thinking out loud here ... I know that they are super busy people, that are asked to do a lot of different tasks - marketing  legal, sales, customer service... it takes a special kind of person to be a realtor. Do you think there is enough capital in real estate though to make a business out of taking the day-to-day marketing off their hands - stuff like photography, ad design, flyers and brochures, ad placement, copy, etc off their hands?

I know how realtors can be, too. They REALLY like being on top of things. I'm not sure they'd ever really trust someone else to handle this. I've looked around a little for real-estate-oriented marketing firms, but I haven't found much. 

Should I focus more on design (print/web) and photography, and less on a full service consulting firm?

Any thoughts?


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## tirediron (Nov 29, 2012)

I suppose that depends on your area.  In a city like Los Angeles or Toronto where they are listing multi-million dollar homes, perhaps, but in the "avearage" area, I'm not so sure.  I routinely look at real estate photos while waiting in line for the banking-machine and almost without exception, they're shot with inexpensive P&S cameras and little concern for anything other than give you a rough idea of what the house/room looks like.  In my area at least, almost all realtors work for one of a half-dozen national syndicates, and the syndicate office provides all of the routine administrative stuff.


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## panblue (Nov 29, 2012)

What do you do at the moment?


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## runnah (Nov 29, 2012)

unpopular said:


> So I have given the prospect some thought, and I keep returning to the same ideas: real estate. I was wondering if there is a market for a marketing and advertising firm that specializes in real estate?
> 
> I'm familiar with real estate advertising, and realtors. Just kind of thinking out loud here ... I know that they are super busy people, that are asked to do a lot of different tasks - marketing  legal, sales, customer service... it takes a special kind of person to be a realtor. Do you think there is enough capital in real estate though to make a business out of taking the day-to-day marketing off their hands - stuff like photography, ad design, flyers and brochures, ad placement, copy, etc off their hands?
> 
> ...



I would do a sit down with several agents and identify shortfalls of their advertising efforts. This way you might find a glaring problem.


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## CCericola (Nov 29, 2012)

It also depends on if the realtor is backed by a nationwide real estate company. A real estate agent that has joined companies like Remax, Century21, etc... They get free/deeply discounted marketing materials from the parent company. They do, however, need to get the photos done for themselves. Check out small, independent realty companies. They would be easier to handle then a national account that hires a large ad agency. Is it possible, yes. And you don't have to limit yourself to just people in your area. I have several design clients that I have never met in person as they are in different states all together.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

I have several years experience with real estate advertising, I worked in the real estate department at a regional newspaper in northern, CA. Even the nation-wide companies offer only limited marketing materials, things like logos, artwork, stylesheets etc. But still, they rely on over-taxed newspaper art departments a lot. Of course, basic design services usually come with newspaper advertising - so there is an expense involved with my proposed service - one which they are not accustom to.

I would be doing this in a part of the state with lots of high-dollar real estate. I can't imagine that this would be worth the while for any property too much under the $1 million mark. If there is enough property to support the business is another thing I need to consider. No matter, my service area though would include a pretty wide region, and that's something I'd have to consider as well when pricing.

Still though. There's a LOT of stuff involved with real estate advertising. Ad placement alone is a huge hassle, especially if you're placing in multiple publications. Plus, the design staff at these publications are very limited, and that makes it very hard to stand out.


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## runnah (Nov 29, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I have several years experience with real estate advertising, I worked in the real estate department at a regional newspaper in northern, CA. Even the nation-wide companies offer only limited marketing materials, things like logos, artwork, stylesheets etc. But still, they rely on over-taxed newspaper art departments a lot. Of course, basic design services usually come with newspaper advertising - so there is an expense involved with my proposed service - one which they are not accustom to.
> 
> I would be doing this in a part of the state with lots of high-dollar real estate. I can't imagine that this would be worth the while for any property too much under the $1 million mark. If there is enough property to support the business is another thing I need to consider. No matter, my service area though would include a pretty wide region, and that's something I'd have to consider as well when pricing.
> 
> Still though. There's a LOT of stuff involved with real estate advertising. Ad placement alone is a huge hassle, especially if you're placing in multiple publications. Plus, the design staff at these publications are very limited, and that makes it very hard to stand out.



I could write a book on outdated methods of advertising. Real Estate would be chapter one.

Who is the prime demo? Old retired people or rich young people? Are they measuring ROI? Do they know what ROI is? Are they utilizing social media? Do they measure social media advertising ROI? Are what website they do have formatted for mobile devices? 

PM me is you want to get in depth.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm still waiting for my payment from my one real estate shoot done after guy begged me to do it as a favor.

He got paid his 8-10 k; I'm waiting.


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## skieur (Nov 29, 2012)

Gee, I am out in a village and the real estate advertising is much more sophisticated here.  Local paper inserts advertise virtual tours of any house/cottage over an asking price of $400,000.  One real estate company creates a web site for each house on the market with their own web address which is the same as that of the house.  One agent even uses a medium format Hasselblad with a wide angle lens to create his own panoramas and virtual tours.

skieur


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

runnah said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > I have several years experience with real estate advertising, I worked in the real estate department at a regional newspaper in northern, CA. Even the nation-wide companies offer only limited marketing materials, things like logos, artwork, stylesheets etc. But still, they rely on over-taxed newspaper art departments a lot. Of course, basic design services usually come with newspaper advertising - so there is an expense involved with my proposed service - one which they are not accustom to.
> ...



I agree 100,000% Real estate marketing is typically SO lousy. I understand completely why, realtors have *A LOT *to deal with. They also tend to be very one-on-one oriented, so I don't really get the impression they completely understand mass media. Unfortunately for their competitors who won't use my service (heehee), marketing strategies typically suffer as a result.

ROI though is what I'm most worried about - so maybe I should be hoping they don't know what ROI is!


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## ronlane (Nov 29, 2012)

I had a guy talk with me about shooting his listings to be included on the MLS system here in Oklahoma. It hasn't panned out yet but I think that there is a market to go shoot houses and stuff for real estate agents out there. It would help them with time management and allow them to do something else besides spend time shooting the house. Couldn't hurt to give it a go.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

You know. My thinking is, you look into getting a $20,000 car, and you get a nice booklet with glossy pages and full color photographs.

You look into getting a $4 million house, you get a crappy printout some Hawaiian Punch and Shrimp cocktail (if you're lucky). I think there is room for improvement, the cost of high quality pamphlets and brochures really isn't that much anymore. I just don't know if I can convince people it's worth the investment.


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## CCericola (Nov 29, 2012)

True, but they are selling millions of those 20,000 cars. Bit of a difference.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

^^ and that is a *BIG* difference. I do know that developers produce some REALLY sophisticated material, but, again, they're selling tens or hundreds of units. 

Though I am curious what would happen if one realtor started printing higher quality flyers. ATM the bar is set so tremendously low.


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## amolitor (Nov 29, 2012)

With all due respect, I think this is mostly a loser of an idea. I mean, you might sign some agents up and make some money, but you're not going to help them shift houses.

People buy houses based on size, features, location, and price. The high end market is no different. The customer is gonna have some ideas of neighborhoods or areas they want to buy in, and roughly the kind of house they want to buy. Then they're going to drive by every single house that meets those criteria, and walk through any of the potential buys.

Where does a bunch of great photography, or movies, or virtual tours, come in to this process?


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## ronlane (Nov 29, 2012)

I have to disagree. The value would be this. Time is a value and if you can use high quality photographs, video or 3D graphics to help narrow down a buyers selections you have added value in multiple ways. You can look through floorplans and photos much faster than you can by driving around all day or days. You can elementate some areas and homes just by looks and this is a much easier decision when looking at good quality photographs or video. And the final thing that you are doing is saving gas money and time from driving around to a bunch of houses that are iffy at best.

Do high quality pictures, brochures, etc help sell cars? Yes it does. Why? because people can take them home where they can look at them and be sold the dream every day. I think that it would work for houses as well.


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## runnah (Nov 29, 2012)

amolitor said:


> Where does a bunch of great photography, or movies, or virtual tours, come in to this process?



It sets you apart from the pack. An unflattering photo of a house or room in a house could mean the difference between asking for a showing or skipping to the next one. When I bought my house the photos provided were terrible which was too bad for the sellers but good for use because we got a good house for good money. I am sure many people just passed because of the photos provided.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

Lets say you're looking at a few houses with different realtors. You come down to two different houses with a similar price. You take home the printed materials from both. One is a snap shot on copy paper with a few statistics. The other reminds you of all the things you likes about the house, that fireplace, the master bedroom looking out over the mountains.

The point of advertising isn't so much to sell the product, it's to establish a relationship between you and the product, it's to encourage you to remember it and have an emotional tie with it. This emotional tie is what generates excitement. Advertisement is not information. It's not a specification sheet. Currently, real estate advertising is interested in specifications, it's a terribly sterile approach to a product that is very emotionally charged.

The other element is that this would be offered as a convenience - ultimately, realtors sell houses, not advertising. If a realtor doesn't have to deal with the day to day advertising headaches involved with multimedia advertising, they have more time to spend showing houses and closing deals.


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## ronlane (Nov 29, 2012)

exactly, Unpopular. If they aren't having to go take pictures of one house, they can be working to list another. Being able to send someone else to do that part for them, doubles their effeciency and that can sure help their bottom line, which is what you would want to market to the agent.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

People don't realize that in a big agency, about 30% of the office manager's job is dealing with ad placement alone, these are professionals who are better qualified to deal with customer service and everyday clerical matters. They're not advertising professionals.

I really do think that if you were to ask any realtor or agency if they feel that matters dealing with advertising is a burden, they'd agree that it is.


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## amolitor (Nov 29, 2012)

Oh, I see. You're thinking about setting up a more soup-to-nuts advertising agency, not just a high end photograph-your-house business. Sorry, I didn't consult the original post before chattering away.

Sure, that makes sense.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

Yeah. I've always imagined a more full service advertising agency.


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## thetrue (Nov 29, 2012)

If you don't do it, I will  I think you're looking at a really great idea. 

Are you in advertising now?


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## fjrabon (Nov 29, 2012)

I think it could be worthwhile.  The problem is selling realtors on something relatively new and unorthodox.  many of them are going to look at you sideways and think "you want me to pay how much for what?  I can do that!"

Unfortunately, many realtors tend to undervalue their personal time.  Many of them will spend hours to fix something in a house that would cost them $100 to pay a handy man to fix.  Many of them, even in the high end world, will only pay someone to do something if they think they absolutely CANNOT do it by themselves.  Even the succesful ones usually got there by working through the slum offerings, and you are successful in the slum offerings by keeping costs low and doing a lot of stuff yourself.  They tend to carry that mentality even when they move up  to the high end market.  A few realtors are starting to see the light, but many would just assume photograph a million dollar home with a hundred dollar point and shoot, and put it in a tiny black and white trade offering, and have black and white printer paper handouts in a box out front. They view advertising as purely informational, and then selling as what they do, person to person, with their gladhanding and talking.  

You have to sell them on the idea that you are saving them lots of money by allowing them to do things that make them more money, take on more properties, get more money for every property they sell, etc.  Are you that good of a salesman, both of their product, and yours?


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## thetrue (Nov 29, 2012)

Idea: browse a few of the local real estate listings. Find everything you can as far as marketing and photos etc. Pick the best looking house with the worst marketing, go take a few good photos, play with the information that you have available and make a sample ad. Now take the original ad and your ad to the listing agent and make your presentation. With that along with the age old "time is money" argument and some salesmanship on your end should be able to give you a good idea of what you're dealing with.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

thetrue said:


> If you don't do it, I will  I think you're looking at a really great idea.
> 
> Are you in advertising now?



I'm on disability right now, looking to get back into the game. Being on disability actually will help, I have access to vocational services that will help get my foot in the door and generate a portfolio very quickly at no cost to a realtor who's willing to get free services.

fjrabon - I know what you're saying. Realtors are very type-a, get-er-done, do it myself type people. They like having control over everything and having all their ducks in a row. As a group, they can be pretty intense, and this intensity makes for a good challenge.

I think I can sell it to them, I *know* I can provide a product portfolio that will blow their socks off and impress upon them I *can* provide a product which they cannot - and one that their competitors don't have, and it's the latter point that I think I can sell them on. Whether or this is economically feasible for myself as well as the client, I still need to figure out. I mean, i could handle all the advertising for a listing at a rate of $25/month, and I'm pretty sure the realtor would be happy - but I wouldn't be.


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## SCraig (Nov 29, 2012)

I dunno.  It's not a high-dollar profession around here I don't think.  My sister and I recently sold a house, and when we put it on the market the realtor said she was going to hire a professional photographer to shoot it  I saw the shots and he really did a very good job.  He provided the realtor about a dozen shots, all well processed, even  corrected for perspective.  The house looked much better in the shots than it did in real life   Bottom line: He charged her $250.  I don't know what his CODB is but he probably put about 3 or 4 hours in the shoot and processing, so he couldn't have made much.


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

I am wondering if I am thinking about this he wrong way. I've always thought of the client being the realtor. Structuring this as a marketing product which the realtor can sell to the owner might make more sense?


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## thetrue (Nov 29, 2012)

So the realtor would be your sales proxy?


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

not exactly. will explain later. gtg.


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## SCraig (Nov 29, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I am wondering if I am thinking about this he wrong way. I've always thought of the client being the realtor. Structuring this as a marketing product which the realtor can sell to the owner might make more sense?



We didn't pay for the shots, at least not directly, the realtor did.  She said she always has this same guy shoot them for her, and that his fee came out of her fee.  Maybe she does have enough property going on all the time to keep him in lenses.

Had she offered to get him to shoot them and us pay for them I'd probably have agreed, I REALLY wanted that house gone, but then again maybe not.


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## Mully (Nov 29, 2012)

What about virtual tours and site development and web hosting .... then they might bite on printed materials .


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## BlackSheep (Nov 29, 2012)

Up here it's become really common for a realtor to bring in a stager who re-decorates the house with rental furniture, etc., to make it more appealing to the target market. What if you combined services with a stager instead of working directly with realtors?


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## unpopular (Nov 29, 2012)

thetrue said:


> So the realtor would be your sales proxy?





Mully said:


> What about virtual tours and site development and web hosting .... then they might bite on printed materials .



Absolutely web/virtual tours would be part of a package option.

---

What my concern is that realtors wouldn't have the motivation to spend what would be needed for a complete advertising package, which could get very costly. Maybe the realtor could offer a "premium" package to clients who might be more motivated to sell? IDK. I've never bought or sold a house, i've only worked with realtors professionally, so I don't know how they interface with their clients.

Forgive me, I'm just rambling out loud here. The pricing structure is going to be REALLY tricky.




BlackSheep said:


> Up here it's become really common for a realtor to bring in a stager who re-decorates the house with rental furniture, etc., to make it more appealing to the target market. What if you caombined services with a stager instead of working directly with realtors?



first, I don't think this market exists in this area - maybe, but I doubt it. This isn't Toronto. Second, I'm not interested in competing with the overcrowded photography market. Every photographer out there is going to be willing to do this kind of work, so I feel that I need to find a niche that isn't being fulfilled. That is why I am focussing on the marketing end of real estate, not just photography.


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## ronlane (Nov 30, 2012)

Unpopular, here is a quote that I got today from an email and I think it is very appropriate for this question.

"Preconceived notions are the locks on the door to wisdom." - Merry Browne

Just getting out there and trying to make it work is the key. All of our advice is good for nothing because we do not know your market and area.

Good luck with the endeavor.


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## unpopular (Nov 30, 2012)

Great quote, ronlane.

Once we relocate I'll give this more serious thoughts. *Thanks for all your input, everyone.*


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## skieur (Dec 1, 2012)

amolitor said:


> With all due respect, I think this is mostly a loser of an idea. I mean, you might sign some agents up and make some money, but you're not going to help them shift houses.
> 
> People buy houses based on size, features, location, and price. The high end market is no different. The customer is gonna have some ideas of neighborhoods or areas they want to buy in, and roughly the kind of house they want to buy. Then they're going to drive by every single house that meets those criteria, and walk through any of the potential buys.
> 
> Where does a bunch of great photography, or movies, or virtual tours, come in to this process?



Easy, it reduces the number of "potential buys", if you see something that you definitely do NOT like in the great photography or virtual tours.

skieur


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## The_Traveler (Dec 1, 2012)

skieur said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > With all due respect, I think this is mostly a loser of an idea. I mean, you might sign some agents up and make some money, but you're not going to help them shift houses.
> ...



I spent a lot of time looking for houses in San Francisco and I began to distrust the brochures because great pictures were made but the house didn't live up to the pictures hype.
Perhaps they facilitate the first look but I began to steer away from the hype and look for the not-so-well photographed houses that actually showed me what I's see when I got there.


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## unpopular (Dec 1, 2012)

hmm.

guys. i'll let you in on a little secret.

everyone in advertising knows advertising doesn't work. any evidence otherwise comes from within the industry. seriously. it's a sham. the whole thing.

---

my point is that I don't really need to be too concerned if the marketing techniques work. all I have to do is convince people that it does, and that what I provide will give them an edge over their competition. 99% of selling something is psychology.

I mean. I know. It's skeezy. But it's the truth.


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## panblue (Dec 1, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> skieur said:
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> 
> > amolitor said:
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 True enough; ultra-wide angle shots commonly featured - the rooms look far bigger than the reality. That starts to get a bit irritating.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 1, 2012)

unpopular said:


> hmm.
> everyone in advertising knows advertising doesn't work. any evidence otherwise comes from within the industry. seriously. it's a sham. the whole thing.



I think it's more likely that the more likely  truth is expressed in the quote as "only 50% of advertising works; the problem is that no one can predict which 50% that is."


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## unpopular (Dec 1, 2012)

panblue said:


> The_Traveler said:
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> > skieur said:
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I would highly recommend clients against overtly misleading advertising. I would probably want to use techniques to avoid this, like perspective correction, rectilinear projection, etc. I don't think photographers are trying to make a house look inaccurate, they just don't know the techniques involved or own the equipment required for architectural photography.

If an agent asks me to make it "look bigger" I'd want to know if tehy think it looks smaller than it actually is, or if they think people would be more interested if it looked larger than it actually is - and then remind them a potential buyer might feel disappointed ... all the while reinforcing "but I can, if you want to". So much of working with people in media development is letting them feel like the expert. Very seldom you get someone who respects your experience and input.

Butt yeah, I am opposed to overtly misleading media. I think it does more harm than good. If I feel something would harm my reputation, I wouldn't be willing to do it. Fortunately, I haven't ever encountered this.

Well, except once, kind of.


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## unpopular (Dec 1, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > hmm.
> ...



When I wrote that, I was being a little bit snarky. There's some truth in that, and the way your market advertising is very psychological in nature. Like I said, it doesn't matter to me if it does work, maybe it does - maybe it doesn't, provided that the client believes it _can_, _will_ or_ continues to_ work. If it does work, that's great - and is of course the ultimate goal, a client is more likely to come back if they see it working well, but if it works isn't as important as the impression that it's beneficial. 

I think "working half the time" is accurate, and this half you don't so much need to worry about. But how does an advertiser retain the other half?

I guess really, effective advertising is a tool salespeople can use. It doesn't really "sell" anything in of itself, it promotes relationships - that I do believe. But I don't think people buy something because of an advertisement, they buy something because the product gives them something.

Advertising promotes and reminds us of what we already want.

So I do have ideas about advertising and how it does work and what roll it can play. But I don't think that it sells products, culture sells products - advertising serves as a symbolic conduit.


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## panblue (Dec 1, 2012)

I accept photographers themselves aren't trying to mislead; well, I think it's fair to yield on that but those ultra-wides are 'what's expected' from a _tradesman_ photographer in that kind of assignment. After all, we're not talking 'artiste' here; the whole business model is a numbers game; price work. Do it like everyone else; try to make 10/15/20 assignments per week etc...make it pay a living.



unpopular said:


> panblue said:
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> > The_Traveler said:
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## unpopular (Dec 1, 2012)

panblue said:


> I accept photographers themselves aren't trying to mislead; well, I think it's fair to yield on that but those ultra-wides are 'what's expected' from a _tradesman_ photographer in that kind of assignment. After all, we're not talking 'artiste' here;




I got ya. But I'm not talking about being an 'artiste', just doing things "right". I think that while my customers couldn't exactly know why my work would look better, it would look better because it's not all distorted to hell.

As we all know, the photography market is WAY over crowded. If i'm going to stand out, my work will need to look like it's from the pages of Architectural Digest, not some guy with a 16mm Tamron (no offense Tamron fans).


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## skieur (Dec 2, 2012)

panblue said:


> The_Traveler said:
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> > skieur said:
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Yes, most of the photography is done with 10mm to 20mm wide angle zooms, but having bought a home recently, I just looked at them from that point of view. The wide angle lenses were used for increased depth of field under regular light and care was taken with camera angles to avoid unrealistic distortion of size. Having talked to a photographer for a particular real estate company, he pointed out that little or no postprocessing was done because of time constraints.

skieur


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## The_Traveler (Dec 2, 2012)

yes, but that isn't the point.

If excellent - and costly -photography isn't a distinct advantage, the the realtor who has a big inventory won't put a lot of dough into it. 
Well staged homes are probably better deal closers than photos that mislead by their excellence.


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## unpopular (Dec 2, 2012)

I do think you're right. Advertising a house isn't like advertising burgers. We're all a little disappointed by McDonalds, but we are full and emotionally satisfied. And we've only spent a few bucks.

You don't want to create an advertisement that inevitably results in disappointment, distrust and skepticism. People always "try before they buy" a house, they walk through the home and if the relationship they have with it is not maintained from what they saw in previous advertising, they're going to walk away from the property feeling negatively. They might not even realize that it's the ad, not the property that is making them feel that way, and this in particular is a very dangerous thing.

---

The way I see it is that I could provide run-of-the-mill advertising media for many properties using wide angle lenses, minimal post processing, low cost materials - but at some point a realtor is going to need to ask themselves if it's worth it, or if this is just something they can do themselves. Convenience is one selling point, but i don't think I can sell my services in convenience alone. Plus, like I said before, any moron with a camera thinks they can do this kind of work.

I could focus on a few high end properties, but to do so I'd have to cover a much larger area, and this could cut into my bottom line significantly. Higher end properties though would likely benefit more from the full range of services which I'd offer.

In reality, I would need to also address other markets that would require high-quality architectural and technical photography and multimedia services, such as architectural and industrial firms, while focussing on real-estate as my regular, stable work.


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