# "My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit"



## manaheim (May 4, 2014)

I'd just like to call attention to something...

This "My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit" is very limiting.  My ability to offer critique to someone who has this flag is severely hindered, because I lack the ability to simply show you what I'm talking about.

I understand that some of us are very capable, and we know very well what we're trying to achieve. I also understand having people hack up your image and show you something that is NOT what you are looking for can be distasteful at times... however... a picture is worth a thousand words.  If you're looking for feedback from folks on the forum, then you are doing yourself a disservice by having this flag set.


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## kundalini (May 4, 2014)

I'm gonna agree with the second part to your third point.


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## Trever1t (May 4, 2014)

Well, you can always ask.I have it there because I don't want people, anyone taking liberty. If I had some question and was asked I'd certainly permit it if the editor was wanting to display something I wanted tosee...does that make sense?


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## manaheim (May 4, 2014)

I'm having a hard time determining what my third point was. lol


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## kundalini (May 4, 2014)

manaheim said:


> I'm having a hard time determining what my third point was. lol



In my inebriated mind,


manaheim said:


> I'd just like to call attention to something...
> 
> *1)*This "My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit" is very limiting. My ability to offer critique to someone who has this flag is severely hindered, because I lack the ability to simply show you what I'm talking about.
> *2)*I understand that some of us are very capable, and we know very well what we're trying to achieve.
> ...


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## bribrius (May 4, 2014)

often you are lucky to get a detailed critique never mind someone editing your photo. And the detailed critique might be worth more. The times I have my photos edited they asked first, and I obliged. As it is for learning and helpful.

The idea of people randomly messing with my photos without offering a detailed critique I think I would find more a headache and disturbing than anything. As I generally prefer not to have my work messed with whether it is good or bad. There is no harm in asking, and most people would ask if they really cared enough. How long does it take to ask, two seconds? Lot shorter time than the edit or a good critique.
I would actually be more concerned over the opposite problem,  the sites security and people copying photos off it.


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## AlanKlein (May 4, 2014)

I appreciate when people take the time to edit my photo to explain their critique. The whole point of asking for a critique is to learn something. The edited photo can explain their critique better and more easily in many occasions. _"A picture is worth a thousand words."_


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## CdTSnap (May 4, 2014)

Thats why I changed mine


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## SpikeyJohnson (May 4, 2014)

I let a guy in my photo class edit one of my photo's the other day..... Good lord, I felt like he ruined it! Glad I'm in good company though when I visit and post on TPF. Luckily I feel like I can trust the people here for a real critique or edit!


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## snerd (May 5, 2014)

Take my photos. Please!


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## nzmacro (May 5, 2014)

I haven't taken that option and the reason is, its fine, but its also nice to be asked first. What I don't want and maybe a few others, is to have an image downloaded, worked on and put on someone else's site so they can link it back. The image is then on their site. I actually find that odd to be honest.

Its strange when someone asks about an image and for help, but they also have that "my photos are not okay to edit". that makes it kind of tough. I would generally ask first. 

Danny.


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## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> often you are lucky to get a detailed critique never mind someone editing your photo. And the detailed critique might be worth more. The times I have my photos edited they asked first, and I obliged. As it is for learning and helpful.
> 
> The idea of people randomly messing with my photos without offering a detailed critique I think I would find more a headache and disturbing than anything. As I generally prefer not to have my work messed with whether it is good or bad. There is no harm in asking, and most people would ask if they really cared enough. How long does it take to ask, two seconds? Lot shorter time than the edit or a good critique.
> I would actually be more concerned over the opposite problem, the sites security and people copying photos off it.



No offense, bribrius, but you are like the poster boy for the problem side of this argument. Your images generally need a lot of love, and having that flag dissuades people from helping you.

I, for one, will often just skip past a thread with this flag set because it ties my hands in my critique and makes it too difficult. I have to write three paragraphs to explain something that I can show with an edited picture and 5-10 words.

Standard rule... if you're asking for someone's help... and someone's time... you want to make it as easy on them as possible. You get the most out of their valuable effort, and you make it easy for them to help you again and again if necessary.


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## sonicbuffalo (May 5, 2014)

I agree!


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## Tee (May 5, 2014)

To be honest, many times the edits in support of the critique are downright horrid.  If the member has "NOT ok to edit" then perhaps this a good chance for the person giving critique to enhance their writing style. (<---last comment *not* directed at OP but in general)


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## sm4him (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> often you are lucky to get a detailed critique never mind someone editing your photo. And the detailed critique might be worth more. The times I have my photos edited they asked first, and I obliged. As it is for learning and helpful.
> 
> The idea of people randomly messing with my photos without offering a detailed critique I think I would find more a headache and disturbing than anything. As I generally prefer not to have my work messed with whether it is good or bad. There is no harm in asking, and most people would ask if they really cared enough. *How long does it take to ask, two seconds?* Lot shorter time than the edit or a good critique.
> I would actually be more concerned over the opposite problem,  the sites security and people copying photos off it.



How long does it take to ask? That really depends on whether the OP is online at the time, doesn't it? If I'm asking, it means I'm online and have the time right then to do it. If I have to wait for an answer until whenever the OP is back on and sees the post, well by then, I may not have the time to work on it.

Trever, I personally think people like you are what the "do not edit" option is for. You are already a highly skilled photographer, and you know the look you are going for. Your processing is always, or at least nearly always, very intentional--whether it speaks to someone else's particular likes or not, it's clear that you processed it the way you did quite consciously.

I think what Manny is speaking to is those who are beginners/amateurs who do NOT already have a strong grasp on either their photography skills or their processing skills. They'll often even ask something like "what is wrong with this picture," and yet they set this option to "do not edit" due to some fear, I think, that setting it to "OK to edit" will result in people doing stupid silly things with their photos.

It's been my experience that there are very, very, VERY few instances on TPF where someone has edited another person's photo just to be silly--unless the OP specifically invited such response ("caption this photo," and that sort of thing invites silliness).
I've had people edit my photos in a way that wasn't the look I was going for, but I've NEVER had anyone edit one of my photos in a disrespectful or objectionable way.


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## Steve5D (May 5, 2014)

I have that "not okay to edit" flag. If someone asks, though, I'll usually have no problem with it. Likewise, I've asked those who have it, and have always been granted permission to edit a photo. It's no big deal. It's entirely possible to easily offer a critique or a suggestion without having to actually edit a photo.

Maybe a solution could be to also offer an "ASK BEFORE EDITING" option...


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

If I offer a picture for critique, I'm often asking for something very specific so it's easier to give directed feedback. I don't want people to waste their time editing a photo for something I didn't even ask about. If it's something I need help visualizing, I might mention that it would be okay to edit that particular photo in that particular thread.

I also find it much more useful when someone is able to tell me exactly what they do or don't like, and that doesn't need a long, involved description. I can see how description PLUS an example of the edited photo for beginners would be useful, so they can see the result of the advice that was just given, but those who have been doing this awhile should be able to use and understand the jargon, so some simple feedback would be enough to get the point across. Finally, if someone tells me that a picture needs, for example, a contrast boost, I want to be able to achieve the result myself rather than just have someone do it for me. 

And I think it's just good manners to ask first.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> If I offer a picture for critique, I'm often asking for something very specific so it's easier to give directed feedback. I don't want people to waste their time editing a photo for something I didn't even ask about. If it's something I need help visualizing, I might mention that it would be okay to edit that particular photo in that particular thread.
> 
> I also find it much more useful when someone is able to tell me exactly what they do or don't like, and that doesn't need a long, involved description. I can see how description PLUS an example of the edited photo for beginners would be useful, so they can see the result of the advice that was just given, but those who have been doing this awhile should be able to use and understand the jargon, so some simple feedback would be enough to get the point across. Finally, if someone tells me that a picture needs, for example, a contrast boost, *I want to be able to achieve the result myself rather than just have someone do it for me*.
> 
> And I think it's just good manners to ask first.


Bingo.
Not to mention someone drags your photo into lightroom makes ten adjustments and brings it back and says "isn't that better?"
well, I may not think it is better. I also don't have lightroom, don't know what you did, cant repeat it, and shoot near sooc. so what just occurred didn't really do a damn thing to help me. while it may have given them a ego boost how much help actually went to me is pretty limited. And that is provided they even made adjustments on what was necessary or outwardly incorrect and didn't just adjust the entire thing to fit their personal likes for the sake of it.


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## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> If I offer a picture for critique, I'm often asking for something very specific so it's easier to give directed feedback. I don't want people to waste their time editing a photo for something I didn't even ask about. If it's something I need help visualizing, I might mention that it would be okay to edit that particular photo in that particular thread.
> 
> I also find it much more useful when someone is able to tell me exactly what they do or don't like, and that doesn't need a long, involved description. I can see how description PLUS an example of the edited photo for beginners would be useful, so they can see the result of the advice that was just given, but those who have been doing this awhile should be able to use and understand the jargon, so some simple feedback would be enough to get the point across. Finally, if someone tells me that a picture needs, for example, a contrast boost, I want to be able to achieve the result myself rather than just have someone do it for me.
> 
> And I think it's just good manners to ask first.



The problem with this line of thought is that you are telling the teacher how to teach, which is a huge red flag.

Pretending for a moment that there is a "right and wrong" here... if you don't know what "right" is (aka asking for critique), then presuming you know the best way to communicate what right is... is rather presumptuous.

Not to mention, if it's easier for the teacher to communicate their thoughts in a certain way... then you should allow them to do that.  Placing an arbitrary restriction on them limits what they can do for you at best, and limits the number of teachers willing to help at worst.


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

Sorry, but a good teacher should be able to break things down in a way for a student to understand. We've all known those folks in front of a classroom who might have been brilliant but couldn't teach for crap (which is why I call them 'folks at the front of the classroom' rather than 'teachers.') Some people don't know how to explain steps of a process to beginners, and yet a beginner asking for help needs exactly that: certain things to be broken down, not just the final answer.

I might know exactly how to fix a paragraph one of my students wrote, and it would be a HELL of a lot easier to simply re-write the paragraph to 'show' them how to do it, but ultimately, what HELPS the student more is to let them do it themselves.

It's not all about how the teacher prefers to communicate. The teacher must also take into account how the student will receive the information, because if that is ignored, then truly no "communication" has taken place.


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## astroNikon (May 5, 2014)

It's true that the person who is receiving the critique varies on how they accept the critique.
But then everyone is different.
I've gotten great advice on how to improve photos, technique, etc.  It all depends upon how one receives it and tries to incorporate those comments into their work.

This forum has calmed down on critiques since last fall.  Some were very edgy.  It seems to have improved the environment on critiqueing being more on the soft side.

FWIW My teacher/mentor is awesome.  It taught me to pick out something in his pictures that he's posted.  At least I think I was right from his posting !!


I'm waiting for the "It is NOT OK to read nor reply to my comment" button


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

Just to clarify, I am NOT suggesting that editing photos for someone else isn't useful. It can be very useful for those who process information more visually and might not as easily follow written advice without the visual accompaniment. For those who aren't sure what to do, then go ahead - let someone edit your photo and show rather than tell. Make it easier by giving everyone blanket permission to edit photos.

But if someone doesn't find it particularly useful, then it is NOT limiting to disallow editing without permission. It might be limiting for the person *giving* critique, but if the form of that critique is not useful for the person *asking *for critique, then what has been accomplished by editing that photo? Very little, and so the person giving the critique in the form of an edited photo has wasted their time.

One size does not fit all, of course, and folks who have chosen the "My photos are NOT OK to edit" option have done so for very specific reasons that are relevant to them. Are you suggesting we're all wrong for having made this choice? That our preferences don't or shouldn't matter? I don't think you are, quite frankly, but it feels a little bit like we've been scolded for that choice.


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## astroNikon (May 5, 2014)

FYI, I didn't know what that feature was used for until someone asked me to change it


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## Derrel (May 5, 2014)

If a photo is wreck and the poster says not okay to edit, all I typically give them is a brief written suggestion of what I see as the errors in need of help. To me, the my photos are not okay to edit tag is not a one size fits all tag; I've been taking and developing my own photos since the mid-1970's...I know pretty much exactly how I want my photos to look, and I'm typically not interested in how somebody else would re-envision my photos--and yet, I have the "My Photos Are Okay To Edit" enabled. I think a lot of newbies on the other hand welcome alternate viewpoints and re-envisionings because, frankly, many of them have been "developing" their own photos for a matter of weeks or months, not decades, and yet, they will not allow editing.

I think this thread has some people participating who were not even the target audience for the OP, yet they seem to have become overly concerned about another guy's point of view, and are now involved in fighting a battle that's not even theirs to be involved in...

One of the best suggestions is adding a third choice: Ask Before Editing, which Steve5D suggested in Post #16.


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## ronlane (May 5, 2014)

Trever1t said:


> Well, you can always ask.I have it there because I don't want people, anyone taking liberty. If I had some question and was asked I'd certainly permit it if the editor was wanting to display something I wanted tosee...does that make sense?



We KNOW why you don't allow editing. Because the clothing is on it's own layer and if we were allowed to edit it, we know that runnah would turn off that layer.


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

ronlane said:


> Trever1t said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you can always ask.I have it there because I don't want people, anyone taking liberty. If I had some question and was asked I'd certainly permit it if the editor was wanting to display something I wanted tosee...does that make sense?
> ...



*snicker*


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## ronlane (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> > Trever1t said:
> ...



Oh so you would be doing it too, huh?


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> Take my photos. Please!


im the opposite. Not because most of my photos are totally wonderful. But i have way too much time tied up in this. i look at that as the equivalent of working for a week and someone stealing my paycheck. Not to mention when you start offering things for sale, it puts a entire new spin on someone copying it off line for free. im working right now on getting some of my stuff shown and for sale at a place up on a wall in physical print. i am paranoid about what i post on line and limit it. There is some amazing photography on this site from others, and i often wonder how much has been stolen off it. i usually post photos that are photos that im not sure of or in need of help. i surely don't post for others enjoyment or for pats on the back here. Mostly to learn or say "this is what im working on"


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## snerd (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Take my photos. Please!
> ...


Oh, I was in no way faulting you for your preference! I completely understand both side of the issue. If and when I can progress to the point of some of the artists on this forum, I may even join ya!  Meanwhile, I'm reduced to Henny Youngman jokes.


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## JacaRanda (May 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > snerd said:
> ...



 I absolutely post for others to enjoy and appreciate the pats on the back. Once I decided that photography is truly a hobby for me, I stopped taking blood pressure medicine. :thumbup:


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

ronlane said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > ronlane said:
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Maybe it would be motivation to finally learn more than basic PP tools


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## Derrel (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> ronlane said:
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> 
> > limr said:
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Ron, are you gonna let her sit there and chastise you for how you handle *your P-P*????


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

Derrel said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > ronlane said:
> ...



Motivation FOR ME to learn more than basic tools. I know crap about layers! :greenpbl:

Oh, and *snicker" ... you said P-P.


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## ronlane (May 5, 2014)

Derrel said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > ronlane said:
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chastise my p-p? WOW, and Mish hasn't even been in on this conversation.


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## robbins.photo (May 5, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



So maybe what we really need is a "My photos are not ok to scoff at" switch.. lol.


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## robbins.photo (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



Onions have layers.  Ogres have layers.

Umm.. hmm.. yup, that's pretty much all I got.  Lol


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## astroNikon (May 5, 2014)

A clothing layer ?

might be worth it to buy PhotoShop  :mrgreen:


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## JacaRanda (May 5, 2014)

Derrel said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > ronlane said:
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:lmao:Master D. prez for May-June!


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## JacaRanda (May 5, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> JacaRanda said:
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> 
> > snerd said:
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:lmao:  Mr. Rob Benz for prez June-July!


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## limr (May 5, 2014)

Ouch, I've been ousted!


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## snerd (May 5, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> I absolutely post for others to enjoy and appreciate the pats on the back. Once I decided that photography is truly a hobby for me, I stopped taking blood pressure medicine. :thumbup:


QFT!! But I still have to take my b/p meds.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

this is still going? well i'd say the thread went no where but it looks like it is going somewhere...


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## robbins.photo (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> this is still going? well i'd say the thread went no where but it looks like it is going somewhere...



Well never fear, people always think you can't get to nowhere. Nonsense. Some politician is always wasting millions of taxpayer dollars somewhere to ensure that you can, it's just one bridge project away my friend.


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## snerd (May 5, 2014)

No matter where you go, that's where you are.


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## vintagesnaps (May 5, 2014)

Isn't that a song, the road to nowhere? or maybe not.

It's up to anyone to decide how they want their photos to be used by others, and I agree it's better to ask if it's OK first. If you want to demonstrate techniques you could post one of your own photos and demonstrate how you edited it. Or don't reply at all.

I'm a teacher too and what Leonore suggests is often similar to what I would do or have done - we probably both learned teaching methods, as well as theories - the 'why' behind what we do. I agree that people probably won't learn something as well if someone else does it for them, but it may help to see something demonstrated. It's up to them if they'd like their photo edited or if they'd rather learn how to do it themselves.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > snerd said:
> ...



oh i wouldn't consider myself a artist. i don't even like the term applied to me. And im not even suggesting im good at this im way to humble to say that anyway. i just need to rationalize time and expense and trying to get work shown is my rationalization.


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## sashbar (May 5, 2014)

After a year and a half of green light I have switched to NOT OK simply because I have not had a single edit that was helpful.


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## The_Traveler (May 5, 2014)

If someone doesn't allow editing then they won't benefit from anything I have to say. If that doesn't mean much to them, it's OK with me, I just move along.
If getting good c/c is difficult, why put an obstacle in the path of anyone who might offer it?

Many of the posters here hurt their own chances by posting pictures that are so small that there is no basis either to make intelligent comments about the technical issues and certainly not to edit.
When I see someone who posts something that is 800 pixels on the longest side, why bother?
WHen I see pictures posted by someone who clearly doesn't know cr@p about he/she is doing, and yet doesn't allow editing, I know that 80% of what I might say would be useless because they don't know enough to translate words into image changes and I just don't bother.
While they're worrying about someone editing their precious gems, what they should be realizing is that they're missing a chance to actually learn something.

Saying that a good teacher could adapt might be able to adapt might be true but why handicap the teacher?

I won't ask someone for permission because I'm just not that excited about waiting around to get permission to spend my time to help someone.

I had an experience on here about a year ago.
Someone had marked his images not for editing and I wrote a critique and then sent a PM with an edit and asking if I could post it.
His response was that he didn't allow editing - and that meant I shouldn't even have downloaded and edited it.

It may seem hypocritical that I don't allow editing on my own stuff and the real, truly honest truth is that I think I know what I want and I can get the pictures the way I want them and I rarely get comments that I think would be improve the picture.
When I do, I invite the maker to post the edits.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> If someone doesn't allow editing then they won't benefit from anything I have to say. If that doesn't mean much to them, it's OK with me, I just move along.
> If getting good c/c is difficult, why put an obstacle in the path of anyone who might offer it?
> 
> Many of the posters here hurt their own chances by posting pictures that are so small that there is no basis either to make intelligent comments about the technical issues and certainly not to edit.
> ...


that is actually a good point.


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## sashbar (May 5, 2014)

The sad truth is most people here either are unable to give a proper thorough critique or simply just do not care. 
I always welcome such critique of course, but honestly I have long lost any hope. 
And when a Moderator (!)  cares only to write "Meh" in response to the photos - god or bad, but I spent time working on it- then my only response to that is:


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## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

don't lose hope. i did get a decent critique from sleist the other day.
i try to sometimes, but admittedly im not knowledgable to give really good thorough critiques. And often avoid so as to not lead the person astray.


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## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> It's not all about how the teacher prefers to communicate. The teacher must also take into account how the student will receive the information, because if that is ignored, then truly no "communication" has taken place.



I'm not suggesting a teacher shouldn't adapt. But not all do. What I'm suggesting is that the student is the one ASKING for knowledge. When you ask someone for something, you can certainly hope that they will give it to you in a way that works for you, but in the end, you have to take what you can get and be thankful for it. Otherwise, you may well be eliminating the teacher with exactly the knowledge you need.



limr said:


> Just to clarify, I am NOT suggesting that editing photos for someone else isn't useful. It can be very useful for those who process information more visually and might not as easily follow written advice without the visual accompaniment.



Human beings are visual creatures. Period.  Yes, others can learn other ways. Yes, some people out there may actually prefer the written word, but it's a scientifically proven fact that- as a race- we process information visually far more rapidly than via the written word.



bribrius said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > Take my photos. Please!
> ...



Here is a very good example of the problem. You're paranoid. Why? Do you actually think anyone is going to steal your images? 

There are people on this forum with far greater skills than you or I, who not only post their images regularly, but do not even put watermarks on them.

In my experience, there is an inverse relationship between worrying about image theft, and image quality.  The same inverse relationship exists for people "worried about someone ruining their image".

And yeah, I'm totally serious. If you're all hopped up and freaked out, odds are pretty good your images aren't all that great.



sashbar said:


> The sad truth is most people here either are unable to give a proper thorough critique or simply just do not care.
> I always welcome such critique of course, but honestly I have long lost any hope.
> And when a Moderator (!) cares only to write "Meh" in response to the photos - god or bad, but I spent time working on it- then my only response to that is:



Shocked, I am!  (that was me, wasn't it?)


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## SCraig (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > im the opposite. Not because most of my photos are totally wonderful. But i have way too much time tied up in this. i look at that as the equivalent of working for a week and someone stealing my paycheck. Not to mention when you start offering things for sale, it puts a entire new spin on someone copying it off line for free. im working right now on getting some of my stuff shown and for sale at a place up on a wall in physical print. i am paranoid about what i post on line and limit it. There is some amazing photography on this site from others, and i often wonder how much has been stolen off it. i usually post photos that are photos that im not sure of or in need of help. i surely don't post for others enjoyment or for pats on the back here. Mostly to learn or say "this is what im working on"
> ...


In my experience there is a thing called "Fun" that people do sometimes just because they can.  They don't expect to be reimbursed for the time or expenses, they do it, well, just for the fun of it.  If I had gotten paid for every hour I've invested in photography in the past fifty YEARS I could but a ton of new toys.

As to people stealing images, so what?  I put small 800 pixel images on my web site and they are constantly getting downloaded.  Personally I think it's funny as hell because if the person had bothered asking for a copy I probably would have given them a high-res copy for nothing.  I've given away hundreds of photographs over the past 5 or 6 years and never asked a dime for them.  I get my gratification from making someone happy with a photograph for nothing.


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## The_Traveler (May 5, 2014)

This series of posts essentially synopsizes everything I can think of that is wrong with the attitudes of people new to photography.



bribrius said:


> I also find it much more useful when someone is able to tell me exactly what they do or don't like, and that doesn't need a long, involved description.
> 
> I can see how description PLUS an example of the edited photo for beginners would be useful, so they can see the result of the advice that was just given, but those who have been doing this awhile should be able to use and understand the jargon, so some simple feedback would be enough to get the point across. Finally, if someone tells me that a picture needs, for example, a contrast boost, *I want to be able to achieve the result myself rather than just have someone do it for me*.



Much of the time, what is wrong can only be described very vaguely in words.  The fact that someone actually can show you what they think is correct, doesn't keep you from figuring out how to do it and learning yourself. I see this as a silly, macho control issue.




bribrius said:


> Not to mention someone drags your photo into lightroom makes ten adjustments and brings it back and says "isn't that better?"
> well, I may not think it is better. I also don't have lightroom, don't know what you did, cant repeat it, and shoot near sooc. so what just occurred didn't really do a damn thing to help me. while it may have given them a ego boost how much help actually went to me is pretty limited. And that is provided they even made adjustments on what was necessary or outwardly incorrect and didn't just adjust the entire thing to fit their personal likes for the sake of it.



Of course, it's what they think is better - and aren't you soliciting that opinion?  And you are confusing the mechanical method of making a change with how the changes are actuallly seen. There are ten ways to do everything in LR or PS.
 It's like saying you can't cut a piece of wood because you don't have a knife that looks like the one your teacher does.



bribrius said:


> Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"



Here you are bemoaning that the processing is out 'of your league' and yet you want to put rules about how people get the privilege of teaching you. 



bribrius said:


> im the opposite. Not because most of my photos are totally wonderful. But i have way too much time tied up in this. i look at that as the equivalent of working for a week and someone stealing my paycheck. Not to mention when you start offering things for sale, it puts a entire new spin on someone copying it off line for free. im working right now on getting some of my stuff shown and for sale at a place up on a wall in physical print. i am paranoid about what i post on line and limit it. There is some amazing photography on this site from others, and i often wonder how much has been stolen off it. i usually post photos that are photos that im not sure of or in need of help. i surely don't post for others enjoyment or for pats on the back here. Mostly to learn or say "this is what im working on"



You're kidding right.
You just started, you admit you don't know anything and yet you expect to start selling pictures to earn a few dollars and you think your work is actually good enough to steal and you want to put limits on how people teach you.
You aren't paranoid, you're a bit delusional.

And it's damn insulting and childlike to think both that you deserve this kind of treatment - and that you'll get it.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > It's not all about how the teacher prefers to communicate. The teacher must also take into account how the student will receive the information, because if that is ignored, then truly no "communication" has taken place.
> ...


Apparently you didn't read post #47. Im more likely to say i don't know enough or my work isn't good. course if others say they like or don't like it, i don't usually care to much about that either . As far as what people do with their work, or chose for edits or what to post. It is their work and their choice. This isn't "group think photography".  I thought long and hard about how to respond to the rest of this. And after those two seconds were over...........


----------



## The_Traveler (May 5, 2014)

Who gives a damn about your time and expense? That's your issue.
I care about time that I spend - and I'll spend it the way that I think is best.

Being hamstrung by not being allowed to edit because a neophyte photographer wants to protect some phantom commercial potential in the future is a waste of time and, worst of all, is encouraging fallacious thinking.

I can show someone in a single picture edit what would be poorly explained in text in much more time and many exchanges.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> This series of posts essentially synopsizes everything I can think of that is wrong with the attitudes of people new to photography.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sigh. if you don't want to give cc then don't, i wont lose sleep over it.


----------



## table1349 (May 5, 2014)

One of the other issues I often see with people asking for a critique of their work, they either don't know what they were trying to accomplish or capture or don't bother to express what they were trying to do or what they find good or bad and/or what it is they are wanting others to critique.  

Just putting up an image and saying what do you think or give me come C&C is pretty useless without some background to work with from the photographer.  Lew may love a photo, manaheim may hate the same photo and I may be lukewarm or we may have any combination of the above, all for different reasons because we all have our own opinions, likes and dislikes.  To me critiquing a photo is as much about the photographer and what they were wanting to accomplish as anything else.  There is no right or wrong to an image, only those things we like and don't like.  Some are pretty universal and some not so much.  If a photographer wants to get they must be willing to give as well.


----------



## Designer (May 5, 2014)

Yup, that's kind of a sore point with me as well.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> One of the other issues I often see with people asking for a critique of their work, they either don't know what they were trying to accomplish or capture or don't bother to express what they were trying to do or what they find good or ban and/or what it is they are wanting others to critique.
> 
> Just putting up an image and saying what do you think or give me come C&C is pretty useless without some background to work with from the photographer. Lew may love a photo, manaheim may hate the same photo and I may be lukewarm or we may have any combination of the above, all for different reasons because we all have our own opinions, likes and dislikes. To me critiquing a photo is as much about the photographer and what they were wanting to accomplish as anything else. There is no right or wrong to an image, only those things we like and don't like. Some are pretty universal and some not so much. If a photographer wants to get they must be willing to give as well.


Another good point. Like i just looked at sashbars thread and bit my tongue because i wasn't under the complete understanding of what was going on. Maybe if i look at it for a while i might follow enough to comment. so far i just "liked" them because i do like them. That is a far cry from a legitimate observation. im also very guilty of posting images often i don't even want a critique on. some i do but don't explain what im trying to figure out. It does make it tough to critique, looking at it from the other side. Excellent point really.


----------



## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

Just to bring this back around again...

ALLLLLLLLLLL I'm saying... is if you don't let people edit your photo as a part of their toolset to give you critique, you are both limiting how your critique-ers can help you... AND limiting the number of people who will bother.

You are doing yourself a disservice. Period.

Oh and everyone try to be nice so I don't have to lock my own damned thread.

BTW, Craig for president.


----------



## robbins.photo (May 5, 2014)

Well I can certainly understand why a lot of folks chose not to give critique.  It isn't always such a pleasant experience for the person giving the critique, and they often get a lot of - well lets be honest static in return.  Worse yet it's not always from the guy who took the photo - it happens on more than one occasion where you get people who dislike what you posted and frankly some of them can get downright nasty about it.

So no, I don't blame anyone for deciding not to post a critique - or those who decide to do so sparingly.  I rarely if ever critique anything myself, generally only when it is explicitly asked for, and even then only if I get the impression that it is something I can relay that isn't going to start a big knock down drag out, so I will keep it very short rather than getting detailed.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Just to bring this back around again...
> 
> ALLLLLLLLLLL I'm saying... is if you don't let people edit your photo as a part of their toolset to give you critique, you are both limiting how your critique-ers can help you... AND limiting the number of people who will bother.
> 
> ...


oh don't lock it down. This is entertaining. BTW. i don't think i've ever received more than five words critique from you. Least now i know why. you like to edit.


----------



## robbins.photo (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Just to bring this back around again...
> 
> ALLLLLLLLLLL I'm saying...



Is give reeses pieces a chance?



> is if you don't let people edit your photo as a part of their toolset to give you critique, you are both limiting how your critique-ers can help you... AND limiting the number of people who will bother.



Which is true, but I think there might be another issue involved here - it's been a while since I joined but if I remember correctly the edit photos thing defaults to off - you have to turn it on, and I'm not sure a lot of newbies know how.  I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly off is the default setting.



> You are doing yourself a disservice. Period.



Which seems a little silly seeing as how you can go to Henry's Camera and have them do you a disservice instead.. lol



> Oh and everyone try to be nice so I don't have to lock my own damned thread.



Lol.. tempting just for the Irony factor..


----------



## table1349 (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Just to bring this back around again...
> 
> ALLLLLLLLLLL I'm saying... is if you don't let people edit your photo as a part of their toolset to give you critique, you are both limiting how your critique-ers can help you... AND limiting the number of people who will bother.
> 
> ...



There is a simple solution to the problem there Oh Great and Powerful  Oz.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Change the rules.  



*Rule #1.* _ If you are going to post photos and ask for  C&C you hereby agree that those providing the C&C permission to  edit that photo._ 

You don't like the rule, don't ask for C&C.  Problem solved.  Yes I know that there will be those that will not be  pleased however....*&#8220;You can please some of the people some of the time all of the  people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can  never please all of the people all of the time.&#8221;*     &#8213;     Abraham Lincoln

Granted, Lincoln was only the President of the United States during the bloodiest period in U. S. History, not a Moderator at the Photo Forum, so the stresses of making the change are not nearly the same.  But I have faith in you.:thumbup:

Oh yes, one other thing.........are moderators supposed to curse???



Me thinks I feel a bunny thumping coming on.


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Just to bring this back around again...
> 
> ALLLLLLLLLLL I'm saying... is if you don't let people edit your photo as a part of their toolset to give you critique, you are both limiting how your critique-ers can help you... AND limiting the number of people who will bother.
> 
> ...



Well then, I will continue to limit myself to people who are willing and able to give me verbal critique. Even if the person was allowed to edit my photo, I would STILL want a verbal explanation of what was done and why, otherwise that edit would be of _very limited use to me, _and THAT would be a disservice to both me (who didn't learn much) and the commenter (who wasted his or her effort on an edit that was not as useful to me as a verbal explanation.)


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

you know i still haven't had a response to post #22? says a lot right there. Really people, don't bother. And you wonder why i don't give a **** what anyone thinks...:waiting:


----------



## runnah (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> you know i still haven't had a response to post #22? says a lot right there. Really people, don't bother. And you wonder why i don't give a **** what anyone thinks...:waiting:



Ok I will help

To be fair I haven't paid attention here.


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"



I would start a new thread for this. You could ask for some examples of before/after photos that have been edited to make someone look younger. It doesn't even reach the issue of whether or not someone would be allowed to edit that photo because we aren't even able to SEE that photo. The only thing anyone could do would be to suggest certain functions in software or, as I said, show examples of their own work.


----------



## table1349 (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"
> ...



No that would not work.   Look at his sig. It says.... and I quote..."My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit"  End of story.


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"





gryphonslair99 said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



It's a moot point, actually.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> [
> BTW, Craig for president.
> 
> Well then, I will continue to limit myself to people who are willing and able to give me verbal critique. Even if the person was allowed to edit my photo, I would STILL want a verbal explanation of what was done and why, otherwise that edit would be of _very limited use to me, _and THAT would be a disservice to both me (who didn't learn much) and the commenter (who wasted his or her effort on an edit that was not as useful to me as a verbal explanation.)



or alternatively, in gratitude to those who take the time to respond, you could allow them to answer in the way they are most comfortable and then, if you don't understand, either say so or go on.


----------



## table1349 (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, if anyone is looking for something to edit with a purpose. i was asked to provide a photo for a non profit organization of a woman very close to me they are writing something about. And all i have is a snapshot of her. which needs a lot of work and the processing is out of my league knowledge and software wise. i think they want it by the end of the month. All i have is a couple snapshots with horrid backgrounds. i don't have her permission to post her photo online, so i haven't posted it. She is a cancer survivor and it is a cancer organization they are writing something about her and its going in some kind of periodical or something. Her main concern is she looks old which i don't know how to fix. which she is elderly. It doesn't have to be a perfect portfolio shot just "decent"
> ...



Who's Moot and when did he join the conversation?


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

Moot is president, haven't you heard?


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



If they are comfortable giving me a verbal response, then that's what they will do and I will be grateful. If they prefer to show me an edit, then they can ask me for it and I can decide if it will be useful to me or not. If the edit is done, I'll be grateful for it. If I want an edit to begin with, I'll ask for it specifically from the start, giving blanket permission to anyone to edit that photo, and I will be grateful for any response.

The fact remains, however, that 1) I might not even be asking for feedback that requires an edit (i.e. How does this hit you? Which do you like better? Does this photo convey a message, or what do you get out of it?), and 2) an unbidden edit might not be as useful as the editor might think it is.

Again, I need to stress that I DO think that this kind of feedback can be useful, but I do NOT understand what's wrong with not wanting to give carte blanche to anyone at any time to do whatever they want to my photos.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


not for lew. Read back through. He edits peoples photos anyway and then wonders why they get upset.


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > you know i still haven't had a response to post #22? says a lot right there. Really people, don't bother. And you wonder why i don't give a **** what anyone thinks...:waiting:
> ...



pm sent


----------



## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Just to bring this back around again...
> ...



Hold up, there cowboy. I'm only on here about an hour a day... total. There's about 8 trillion threads a day in this place. The mere fact that you hear from me EVER is pretty astonishing, from a pure statistics standpoint alone. AND I'd like to point out that you DO hear from me. I don't comment on every photo I see... namely because some things... and some people... are far beyond any help I can provide... edited picture or no.



gryphonslair99 said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Just to bring this back around again...
> ...



**** no. 

Changing the rules seems like a nice idea, but anytime you try to change something like that the world will go into a total uproar. In THEORY it's easier to try to educate people and work to swing the culture... however, we can see how effective THAT little ploy has been. 



limr said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Just to bring this back around again...
> ...



I always give one with my edits.

The picture just makes it so I can do it in 20 words instead of 200.

I also find it funny that you think you can choose who gives you critique.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... the humor factor of all you hyper-controlling people. And if you knew me really well, you would know how steeped in irony that statement truly was.



Ok, I'm done... I tried.  Do whatever makes you happy.  Good luck!



Oh and bribrius... I have no idea what #22 is, and I ain't gonna go look.


----------



## CdTSnap (May 5, 2014)

I love apples...


----------



## manaheim (May 5, 2014)

I like turtles.


----------



## table1349 (May 5, 2014)

limr said:


> Moot is president, haven't you heard?


Wait, what happened to Craig???


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> I always give one with my edits.
> 
> The picture just makes it so I can do it in 20 words instead of 200.
> 
> *I also find it funny that you think you can choose who gives you critique.*


*
*
I never said I could. I suggested that people giving critique would self-select - which they already do, permission to edit or no. If I don't allow editing and someone likes to edit, then that person won't comment on my photo. 



> Ok, I'm done... I tried.  *Do whatever makes you happy*.  Good luck!



Isn't that the point?


----------



## bribrius (May 5, 2014)

manaheim said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...


that would be a handy option. can we put some settings in for that?


----------



## snerd (May 5, 2014)

Frog went a-courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh
Frog went a-courtin' and he did ride, uh-huh
Frog went a-courtin' and he did ride
With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh-huh.

Well he rode right up to Miss Mousey's door, uh-huh
He rode right up to Miss Mousey's door, uh-huh
He rode right up to Miss Mousey's door
Gave three loud raps and a very big roar, uh-huh.

Said, "Miss Mouse, are you within ?" uh-huh     
Said he, "Miss Mouse, are you within ?" uh-huh  
Said, "Miss Mouse, are you within ?"
"Yes, kind sir, I sit and spin," uh-huh.

He took Miss Mousey on his knee, uh-huh
Took Miss Mousey on his knee, uh-huh
Took Miss Mousey on his knee
Said, "Miss Mousey, will you marry me ?" uh-huh.

"Without my uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh
Without my uncle Rat's consent, uh-huh
Without my uncle Rat's consent
I wouldn't marry the president, uh-huh".

Uncle Rat laughed and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh
Uncle Rat laughed and he shook his fat sides, uh-huh
Uncle Rat laughed and he shook his fat sides
To think his niece would be a bride, uh-huh.

Uncle rat went runnin' downtown, uh-huh
Uncle rat went runnin' downtown, uh-huh
Uncle rat went runnin' downtown
To buy his niece a wedding gown, uh-huh.

Where shall the wedding supper be ? uh-huh
Where shall the wedding supper be ? uh-huh
Where shall the wedding supper be ?
Way down yonder in a hollow tree, uh-huh.

What should the wedding supper be ? uh-huh
What should the wedding supper be ? uh-huh
What should the wedding supper be ?
Fried mosquito in a black-eyed pea, uh-huh.
Well, first to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh.
First to come in was a flyin' moth, uh-huh.
First to come in was a flyin' moth
She laid out the table cloth, uh-huh.

Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh
Next to come in was a juney bug, uh-huh
Next to come in was a juney bug
She brought the water jug, uh-huh.

Next to come in was a bumbley bee, uh-huh
Next to come in was a bumbley bee, uh-huh
Next to come in was a bumbley bee
Sat mosquito on his knee, uh-huh.

Next to come in was a broken black flea, uh-huh
Next to come in was a broken black flea, uh-huh
Next to come in was a broken black flea
Danced a jig with the bumbley bee, uh-huh.

Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh
Next to come in was Mrs. Cow, uh-huh
Next to come in was Mrs. Cow
She tried to dance but she didn't know how, uh-huh.

Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh
Next to come in was a little black tick, uh-huh
Next to come in was a little black tick
She ate so much she made us sick, uh-huh.

Next to come in was a big black snake, uh-huh
Next to come in was a big black snake, uh-huh
Next to come in was a big black snake
Ate up all of the wedding cake, uh-huh.

Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh
Next to come in was the old gray cat, uh-huh
Next to come in was the old gray cat
Swallowed the mouse and ate up the rat, uh-huh.Mr.
Frog went a-hoppin' up over the brook, uh-huh
Mr. Frog went a-hoppin' up over the brook, uh-huh
Mr. Frog went a-hoppin' up over the brook
A lily-whit duck come and swallowed him up, uh-huh.

A little piece of cornbread layin' on a shelf, uh-huh
A little piece of cornbread layin' on a shelf, uh-huh
A little piece of cornbread layin' on a shelf
If you want any more, you can sing it yourself, uh-huh.


Thank you! Thank you very much!!


    :lmao:      :mrgreen:


----------



## snerd (May 5, 2014)

OMG!! I'm so sorry!! That was meant for another forum!! I have 2 windows with forums open and got mixed up!!! So Sorry!!!!!


----------



## vintagesnaps (May 5, 2014)

Carte blanche to anyone - that's what the issue could be as far as setting for it to be OK for others to edit or not. And Manaheim aren't you somewhat doing the same type thing you're bringing up? - it sounds like you want to critique the way _you_ want, to edit someone's photo, but that may not be what someone wants to allow others to do on a site that's publicly viewable. So critique the way you want, and if that means editing someone's photo for them and they don't have their profile set to allow that, then you don't have to critique it and could instead move on to posts by those who want their photos edited.


Snerd what were you doing by the time I got back on here?? LOL Thanks now I'll probably get that song stuck in my head.


----------



## limr (May 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> OMG!! I'm so sorry!! That was meant for another forum!! I have 2 windows with forums open and got mixed up!!! So Sorry!!!!!



Meh, who can even tell anymore?


----------



## BillM (May 6, 2014)

Do we need permission to edit the lyrics ?


----------



## snerd (May 6, 2014)

BillM said:


> Do we need permission to edit the lyrics ?


Thanks for asking LOL!!!

Dylan probably would frown on it. I posted his version of it. And he says you reviewers can be a pain in the arse sometimes.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

View attachment 73121bet you wish you could edit this...  

:lmao:


----------



## SCraig (May 6, 2014)

bribrius said:


> bet you wish you could edit this...
> 
> :lmao:



Sigh ... Still don't get it, do you?

No, I don't wish I could edit that.  First, if I want to edit something I have in excess of 70,000 images of my own I can edit any time I want to.  

Second, if I were to edit it then it would simply be to try and show what is wrong with it to help YOU.  I get nothing from the effort.

Third, how do you know I didn't?  I could save it and edit it all I want.  If I am to abide by your No Edit stipulation I just wouldn't post it back.


----------



## AlanKlein (May 6, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> One of the other issues I often see with people asking for a critique of their work, they either don't know what they were trying to accomplish or capture or don't bother to express what they were trying to do or what they find good or bad and/or what it is they are wanting others to critique.
> 
> Just putting up an image and saying what do you think or give me come C&C is pretty useless without some background to work with from the photographer. Lew may love a photo, manaheim may hate the same photo and I may be lukewarm or we may have any combination of the above, all for different reasons because we all have our own opinions, likes and dislikes. To me critiquing a photo is as much about the photographer and what they were wanting to accomplish as anything else. There is no right or wrong to an image, only those things we like and don't like. Some are pretty universal and some not so much. If a photographer wants to get they must be willing to give as well.



A picture has to stand on it's own. As the viewer, looking at a picture on the wall, I can't nor do I wish to get into the photographer's head- what his intentions were, what he was trying to do, what his problems are, how what he ate for lunch effects his work.  The critique I offer is from my personal viewpoint.  That's all I have.  If he had other intentions and finds my critique erroneous from his viewpoint, that's fine too.    Neither of us has a monopoly on the Holy Grail.

Speaking of eating, when I dine in a restaurant, the meal is either good or not. I don't know the chef nor do I wish to psychoanalyze him.


----------



## AlanKlein (May 6, 2014)

By the way, a critique is more than liking it or not.  It's important to indicate  the things that work and do not work and how to improve the latter.


----------



## Designer (May 6, 2014)

To further confuse the issue, I've noticed that most newbies don't change that setting from the default.  So practically all the newbies' profiles have the red one. 

So does that mean that mostly newbies and a few others don't want anybody to mess with their stuff?

("Lighten up, Francis!")


----------



## The_Traveler (May 6, 2014)

When my children were little, they were so proud when they pooped in a potty chair and they'd drag me or their mother to show it off.
They almost couldn't bear to flush it away but certainly insisted that only they could pull the lever on the toilet.

I see many similarities here.


----------



## sashbar (May 6, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> When my children were little, they were so proud when they pooped in a potty chair and they'd drag me or their mother to show it off.
> They almost couldn't bear to flush it away but certainly insisted that only they could pull the lever on the toilet.
> 
> I see many similarities here.



Yes, but children are lucky - eventually they learn how to pee. Or p-p.  When elders start to misfire, they never learn again.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

SCraig said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > bet you wish you could edit this...
> ...


joking.. joking.. geez.
okay, guess it wasn't funny.


----------



## robbins.photo (May 6, 2014)

snerd said:


> OMG!! I'm so sorry!! That was meant for another forum!! I have 2 windows with forums open and got mixed up!!! So Sorry!!!!!



Really?  Because honestly I thought it was one of the most insightful things written on the topic to this point.. lol


----------



## robbins.photo (May 6, 2014)

Designer said:


> To further confuse the issue, I've noticed that most newbies don't change that setting from the default. So practically all the newbies' profiles have the red one.
> 
> So does that mean that mostly newbies and a few others don't want anybody to mess with their stuff?
> 
> ("Lighten up, Francis!")



I guess my thought is if the person asking for help is relatively new I'd probably just ask them, hey, is this ok to edit so I can show you what I mean?  My only point is that it's probably wrong to assume that they are arrogant/parnaoid/etc/etc because frankly most of them might not have any idea where that setting is or what it's really used for, nor how to change it.

If they say no, I don't want my photos edited, feel free to move on - no harm done.


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

AlanKlein said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the other issues I often see with people asking for a critique of their work, they either don't know what they were trying to accomplish or capture or don't bother to express what they were trying to do or what they find good or bad and/or what it is they are wanting others to critique.
> ...


That's all well and good when judging a photograph, however when trying to assist or teach a photograper their goal for that photgraph and the area they are wanting help with is very important.  If someone is wanting help with spelling, talking about math isn't what they are looking for.


----------



## rexbobcat (May 6, 2014)

AlanKlein said:


> A picture has to stand on it's own. As the viewer, looking at a picture on the wall, I can't nor do I wish to get into the photographer's head- what his intentions were, what he was trying to do, what his problems are, how what he ate for lunch effects his work.  The critique I offer is from my personal viewpoint.  That's all I have.  If he had other intentions and finds my critique erroneous from his viewpoint, that's fine too.    Neither of us has a monopoly on the Holy Grail.  Speaking of eating, when I dine in a restaurant, the meal is either good or not. I don't know the chef nor do I wish to psychoanalyze him.



Well that rules out a lot of photojournalism since many of those photos are powerful because of context.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> > A picture has to stand on it's own. As the viewer, looking at a picture on the wall, I can't nor do I wish to get into the photographer's head- what his intentions were, what he was trying to do, what his problems are, how what he ate for lunch effects his work. The critique I offer is from my personal viewpoint. That's all I have. If he had other intentions and finds my critique erroneous from his viewpoint, that's fine too. Neither of us has a monopoly on the Holy Grail. Speaking of eating, when I dine in a restaurant, the meal is either good or not. I don't know the chef nor do I wish to psychoanalyze him.
> ...


i'd say more than photojournalism in many cases. When you are looking at a themed showing of multiple photographs and they have a long explanation of the artist, the theme and its purpose, and the photographs I wouldn't say it is standing on its own. When they give a stand up presentation orally explanation with history behind the work it really isn't standing on its own.


----------



## limr (May 6, 2014)

Who said anything about psychoanalysis anyway?


----------



## Designer (May 6, 2014)

bribrius said:


> i'd say more than photojournalism in many cases. When you are looking at a themed showing of multiple photographs and they have a long explanation of the artist, the theme and its purpose, and the photographs I wouldn't say it is standing on its own. When they give a stand up presentation orally explanation with history behind the work it really isn't standing on its own.



From my perspective, I prefer some back story.  As much relevant information about what I'm looking at as I can get.  Yes, it helps me understand the work.  I don't mean a novelette, but something about the photographer's intention helps me decide whether he or she succeeded or not.  

I learned in design school that the designer's intent and some history of the process would invariably aid in understanding why something looks the way it does.  Photography is sometimes the same, but not every photograph was planned from inception.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

Designer said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > i'd say more than photojournalism in many cases. When you are looking at a themed showing of multiple photographs and they have a long explanation of the artist, the theme and its purpose, and the photographs I wouldn't say it is standing on its own. When they give a stand up presentation orally explanation with history behind the work it really isn't standing on its own.
> ...


totally agree. And often the artist and story behind the exhibition is as interesting as the work. It also allows you to view the work in its context and with a much larger amount of understanding giving it added depth.


----------



## terri (May 6, 2014)

Goodness, how did "critique" ever happen before the advent of digital photography?   

A real critique takes time, and should be done verbally - in this forum, that means, written.   Just because the viewer now has the ability to rearrange pixels to satisfy their own vision of what would improve an image doesn't automatically mean that is THE WAY TO CRITIQUE - and somehow, a photographer who prefers _not_ to have his image rearranged in such a manner is considered the lazy one!   

Critique 101:   
* A critique is not about pointing out what is wrong with an image.  A good critique will analyze the photograph, point out its strengths as well as its weaknesses, and respond to the image from an individual perspective. 
* Offer a response to the technical aspects: exposure (over/under/just right), focus (subject in focus, too soft, or perfect for the subject), and DOF: deep, shallow, appropriate for the subject?  And lighting: too harsh, soft, is it enhancing or detracting from the shot?
* Offer a response on composition: is the crop appropriate, or should there be more/less back or foreground?  Rule of thirds: does the subject placement work?   Are there lines that work within the image, lead out, or give a balanced feel?   Is there texture, pattern, or shape that is pleasing?
* Mood or feel: can the viewer tell the photographer's intent?  Does the mood fit the image - is it successful to you, the viewer?  Is it making a statement, telling a story, conveying emotion? 
* Accept that your interpretation as a viewer is only ONE interpretation, and it may differ from the photographer's - or the next viewer.   Do you really have any insight to offer?   If so, will it engage other interpretations?  

I don't want my images edited because most of what I post, when I do post, are alternative processes.   My images are considered complete when I post them, and while I will always value a real critique, offered in the spirit of support and following the guidelines above, I welcome them.   But I will never be happy with anyone who helps themselves to my image to move pixels around and then slap it back on this forum, saying, "There.  Better.   Now go figure it out, and do it this way if you want to be taken seriously."   Which seems to be all that is being suggested in the way of help, with perhaps a mini-tutorial on photo editing software thrown in via PM.   Big whoop.   

If anyone would like to truly take the time to evaluate a work and offer critique, these guidelines might be helpful.   Otherwise, it reads more like children arguing over paint by numbers around here.      Sorry - just my two cents.


----------



## robbins.photo (May 6, 2014)

limr said:


> Who said anything about psychoanalysis anyway?



Well it's high time somebody brought it up, don't you think? Lol

Say, on that topic, do you think we could get a group discount?


----------



## limr (May 6, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Who said anything about psychoanalysis anyway?
> ...



I hope so, 'cause we're cray-cray!



terri said:


> Goodness, how did "critique" ever happen before the advent of digital photography?
> 
> A real critique takes time, and should be done verbally - in this forum, that means, written.   Just because the viewer now has the ability to rearrange pixels to satisfy their own vision of what would improve an image doesn't automatically mean that is THE WAY TO CRITIQUE - and somehow, a photographer who prefers _not_ to have his image rearranged in such a manner is considered the lazy one!
> 
> ...



OH, how I :heart: this!


----------



## robbins.photo (May 6, 2014)

limr said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


----------



## limr (May 6, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> I prefer the term "special"..lol



Short bus special?


----------



## The_Traveler (May 6, 2014)

terri said:


> Goodness, how did "critique" ever happen before the advent of digital photography?
> 
> A real critique takes time, and should be done verbally - in this forum, that means, written.   Just because the viewer now has the ability to rearrange pixels to satisfy their own vision of what would improve an image doesn't automatically mean that is THE WAY TO CRITIQUE - and somehow, a photographer who prefers _not_ to have his image rearranged in such a manner is considered the lazy one!
> 
> ...



First, that's your opinion, Terri, not a RULE

Before digital photography, people used cropping angles and grease pencils to teach the uninitiated.
(I still have some scribbled on prints; and I can't remember what the scribbles meant. 

This kind of verbal critique works quite well when both the giver and the recipient speak the language, understand the issues and can make that intuitive jump from words to pictures, when the maker is past the stage of making technical mistakes.

This kind of verbal critique is tiring, effort intensive and wasteful to provide this kind of 'counselling' to a new person who would benefit from a visual example of a visual art and isn't yet able to get good composition and is struggling with the basics.

I can just picture a ballet student saying to the instructor,'F... no, don't show me, just sit down and tell me. I want to do it myself.'


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

I believe that we have reached this state.  Just my opinion though.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Goodness, how did "critique" ever happen before the advent of digital photography?
> ...


oh. you mean like your bus stop photo? I think you should go back and study composition some more.  I had asked to edit, have you given permission yet?


----------



## The_Traveler (May 6, 2014)

bribrius said:


> oh. you mean like your bus stop photo? I think you should go back and study composition some more.  I had asked to edit, have you given permission yet?



I must admit that I think I will be long dead when either of two things occur; 1) I would give you permission to edit and re-post anything of mine or 2) when I actually think I might learn from your opinion.


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

manaheim said:


> **** no.
> 
> Changing the rules seems like a nice idea, but anytime you try to change something like that the world will go into a total uproar. In THEORY it's easier to try to educate people and work to swing the culture... however, we can see how effective THAT little ploy has been.


Don't you wish you had just CHANGED THE RULES now oh Great and Powerful Oz????


----------



## robbins.photo (May 6, 2014)

Wow.. you can just feel the love in the room.  Lol


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Wow.. you can just feel the love in the room.  Lol


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)




----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

And of course for the Coke lovers amongst us....


----------



## terri (May 6, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Goodness, how did "critique" ever happen before the advent of digital photography?
> ...



Oh, so comparing a visual, two-dimensional art with _dance_ is apples to apples.      Come now.   

Also...I respect you mightily in many ways, Lew, but in this instance you're incorrect - the above is _not_ simply "my opinion."   I'm surprised you would believe that to be true.   I think we do agree on the point that what I described can be tiring, because it _does_ take time and effort.   But that is my point - if people aren't really interested in anything more than having someone simply re-do their work on a forum, you aren't helping them.   Leonore touched on this already, drawing comparisons to a classroom setting.    Whereas taking people through the steps of an actual critique, discussing both positive and negative, can be very illuminating.    They should take the insight of those who know better to go try again - and lord knows that's one thing that digital makes very easy to do.      

Peace out.


----------



## terri (May 6, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > oh. you mean like your bus stop photo? I think you should go back and study composition some more.  I had asked to edit, have you given permission yet?
> ...



Uncalled for, and this is the second time someone from the moderator team has had to remind everyone to keep the snark out of the discussion.   There is no reason for this kind of personal jab.   

Please keep it respectful, everyone - thanks!!


----------



## scotts2014se (May 6, 2014)

Not to keep this alive, but... I rarely learn the reason why or how to do it on my own when someone does it for me. If the reason my work is wrong is pointed out, and I agree, it gives me the opportunity to figure out how to see it and fix it myself. I appreciate everyones insight, but I may not agree, and if I don't and you edit my photo, then you just wasted your time doing so. On that note, mine are OK to edit, knock yourself out if you feel. Believing that there is nothing more you could learn from ANYONE, is very naive, however I do understand not wanting others to edit your work, it's yours, and if you are happy with it, then nobody needs to mess with it, in which case it might be a good idea to post in a non C&C thread or state that it is not up for C&C. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Derrel (May 6, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> When my children were little, they were so proud when they pooped in a potty chair and they'd drag me or their mother to show it off.
> They almost couldn't bear to flush it away but certainly insisted that only they could pull the lever on the toilet.
> 
> I see many similarities here.



Oh, how I love stories about parenting small kids! Keep these great stories coming, Lew!!!


----------



## table1349 (May 6, 2014)

Derrel said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > When my children were little, they were so proud when they pooped in a potty chair and they'd drag me or their mother to show it off.
> ...



Well everyone has to have some kind of $#!% to be proud of in their life.  :lmao:


----------



## minicoop1985 (May 6, 2014)

This thread... :er:

Alright, fine, here's my opinion and I'm out. Frankly, as long as people aren't chopping my images and claiming their own, I don't care. My client work, no, that doesn't go here in the first place and doesn't get edited by anyone other than me. That being said, people have a myriad of reasons to allow or not allow others to edit them. Whether they do or not, I respect their decision not just because I'm a crappy editor, but because it's what the photographer wants done with their photo.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 6, 2014)

Allowing editing, opens doors for different avenues if learning, of seeing, of thinking, visually, for everyone involved.

Not allowing editing, closes those doors for everyone, including yourself.


----------



## bribrius (May 6, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> This thread... :er:
> 
> Alright, fine, here's my opinion and I'm out. Frankly, as long as people aren't chopping my images and claiming their own, I don't care. My client work, no, that doesn't go here in the first place and doesn't get edited by anyone other than me. That being said, people have a myriad of reasons to allow or not allow others to edit them. Whether they do or not, I respect their decision not just because I'm a crappy editor, but because it's what the photographer wants done with their photo.



Thinking about as in your case with client work, if someone edits your photo are you even still technically allowed to use it?? or would there be a copyright claim issue or something to prevent it even being sold at that point? Is that a case where you would have to revert back to your original anyway or would their still be a intellectual claim even on changes to the original image?


----------



## minicoop1985 (May 7, 2014)

bribrius said:


> minicoop1985 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread... :er:
> ...



That's complicated, but if you enlist someone's help ensuring they have the knowledge that what they do will be handed in to a client as your work, while that sounds all kind of shady, would probably not be an issue. Or, for example, if you were a great photographer but horrible editor and had a photoshop artist friend that can't operate a Canon Powershot and combined forces, that would be horribly inefficient but that would probably not be an issue. If you let someone else edit your photo, but don't tell them that you're using it as your work, that sure as hell doesn't sound right to me.


----------



## Scatterbrained (May 7, 2014)

Using separate retouchers is quite common.  Nothing to worry about, most high end fashion shooters, and many commercial/advertising shooters will have a retoucher working with them.


----------



## manaheim (May 7, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > minicoop1985 said:
> ...



Uh... usually folks post up small images compared to the originals. I would sincerely hope you wouldn't take the tiny version that someone edited and use that for... anything.

At the end of the day, once you have seen what the edits are, you have to go make them yourself (or variations of them that  make you happy).  That's sort of the whole point of the process.  Otherwise you don't learn all that much.


----------



## Designer (May 7, 2014)

Yet another wrinkle in this topic:

We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?


----------



## pixmedic (May 7, 2014)

The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing. 
Skype. just send him a photo you want help with, get on skype with him, and you can see _*his*_ computer screen on _*your *_computer screen, and with headphones and a mic he can walk you through every step he uses in Photoshop or lightroom to edit a photo, and you can _*see*_ how he does it in real time. 
its really cool.


----------



## runnah (May 7, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
> Skype. just send him a photo you want help with, get on skype with him, and you can see _*his*_ computer screen on _*your *_computer screen, and with headphones and a mic he can walk you through every step he uses in Photoshop or lightroom to edit a photo, and you can _*see*_ how he does it in real time.
> its really cool.



Except that you have to _*see*_ Lew in real time.


----------



## mishele (May 7, 2014)

runnah said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
> ...


And nude.


----------



## runnah (May 7, 2014)

mishele said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



That wasn't surprising, the position he was in, was.


----------



## Steve5D (May 7, 2014)

Designer said:


> Yet another wrinkle in this topic:
> 
> We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?



Excellent point.

How many here use Photoshop Elements 10? Well, that's what I use; it's all I need. Unless the person editing a photo of mine is also using that program, their edit may not necessarily be helpful...


----------



## The_Traveler (May 7, 2014)

Designer said:


> Yet another wrinkle in this topic:
> 
> We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?



It's not the actual mechanism of editing that is crucial but how one looks at the picture, chooses what to do and in what order.
My current online student/client uses Paint Shop Pro, which I know nothing about, and sends me picture in advance and I place them in a good teaching order. 
While she is online, with each picture we go over what I would do and why, then do each step - usually roughly - because I don't like to spend more than an hour; there's too much too absorb.

First we talk about her intent to show, then discuss placement and composition and technical issues.
Then do some global changes and re-evaluate.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 7, 2014)

Thinking of editing as a simple electro-mechanical process is very shortsighted.
There are many ways in almost infinite variety of minor settings to accomplish the same thing; the really important issue is to understand what one wants to do, to have a goal and how to plan to reach that goal.

It is important to be able to show the less experienced photographer how small changes in position, orientation, color, sharpness affect the final product.

An example of interaction actually here in* this thread*, my opinion was that the subject was too large in the frame. 
That is a counter-intuitive idea because we are always taught to get in close and I could never have made the point without a display.

Helping without an interactive situation is like trying to teach photography over the phone.

EDIT: rather than going to the example link I left and making a comment about the quality of the cloning to discount the point, please understand that I just added substantial space to show where I thought the subject should be in the frame and how, when the subject was smaller, the pose made more impact.  You may not agree with my opinion but that's what I wanted to show.


----------



## jenko (May 7, 2014)

Sometimes it is just easier to show someone what you mean rather than tell them.

Having said that, I try to respect others preferences. I can understand why someone would NOT want others editing their image, especially after seeing so many butchered on here. Much of pp is related to taste. How is applying some terrible filter going to help me if I dislike filters? The best "edit" to me is one that gently corrects rather than making it an entirely different image altogether.


----------



## manaheim (May 7, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > Yet another wrinkle in this topic:
> ...



To further emphasize the point...

The point of showing the editing result is not to show how the tools are used, but rather to show the proposed end result.  

The point of the follow-up text explaining how it was done is to explain how the tools were used ... as an example.  

The exact size and manner of execution of the final result by the original artist need not use the exact tools or the exact method to achieve the final result... nor need they take all the advice given to produce whatever they feel the final end result should be.


----------



## Designer (May 7, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> ..the really important issue is to understand what one wants to do, to have a goal and how to plan to reach that goal.



So few of my photographs actually started out with a goal in mind.  And the ones in which I attempted a certain outcome failed so badly that I am ashamed to show (almost) anyone.  I showed one to my son who questioned everything in the shot.


----------



## limr (May 7, 2014)

I reject the argument that not allowing editing is limiting. You all can yell WRONG all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ONLY effect of this setting is whether or not you have to ask permission to edit. It says nothing about what the person believes about editing. It only says, "Please ask first." 

And sorry, if someone can't even be bothered with asking, then how much does that person care about doing the edit? If someone cares that little, what am I really going to learn anyway? 

For those who do not allow editing carte blanche, there are clearly reasons for them wanting control over their own process. It's also clear that they have already decided that the things they will learn from random edits is limited. Does that mean they think editing is useless? NO. It just means they don't choose that as a primary way of getting feedback. 

If I WANT someone to edit, I am still free to ask for one. If I need help with my software, I can ask for it. If I don't want it or need it at the moment, then don't force it on me. 

And ultimately, even if it's limiting, who cares about how I want to limit myself? Life is full of limits, whether we like it or not.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 7, 2014)

In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?


----------



## limr (May 7, 2014)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?



A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?


----------



## Dagwood56 (May 7, 2014)

I have admittedly skipped over several pages in this thread, but wanted to offer my two cents. I don't allow my photos to be edited, because I only share photos here that I am happy with, photos that are complete, therefore I'm only seeking general comments, other people's opinions. If you don't like something, tell me and I'll take it into consideration and if I agree with the thoughts, I can make the changes the way I see fit. I've been at photography long enough to know how and when to break the rules, but many here have not and feel the rules are strict rules that can't be broken - they are the people who I don't want editing my photos. Some people learn by seeing, others learn by written word, other by a combination of the two and frankly, when I see someone post an edit of someones photo with a list of what they did to it, but no actual explanation as to how they did it, I don't see that as being of much help to a person. If you plan to do an edit of a photo, then you should also provide a step by step written or visual explanation as to how you did it.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 7, 2014)

limr said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?
> ...



Leonore,

I think you are looking at the wrong end of the issue.

The point that I, and most of the others, seem to be making is that allowing editing is a much better way to get help, more illuminating and more useful.
We are trying to convince people who don't allow it, to allow it without putting the viewers over any extra hurdles.

There are people at different levels and many people come here specifically for help.
My attitude is that, if someone needs and wants help, then it's my choice how best to give it and, if the person doesn't want it in the manner I would chose to give it, I walk away.

Interestingly, film-shooters have the least to gain from editing help. Most of the decisions have been made by the time that the image is seen and, in my opinion, the bar for an OK image using film is set lower than digital just because viewers recognize that film is harder.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 7, 2014)

limr said:


> A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?



If you are posting for critique, this is a learning environment.
 Not just for you, but for others following along. Don't forget that others viewing are getting an opportunity to learn from discussion of your image. It's a shared experience that benefits more than just you. It benefits the community. 



> B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?



I've learned more stuff when I wasn't looking for feedback, or when I thought I didn't "need" it. 
So yeah, the "opportunity" is ALWAYS there. And you ARE closing doors. 

That's fine. It's your choice. You are free to limit yourself.

You don't know what you don't know, until you know it.


----------



## pixmedic (May 7, 2014)

runnah said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
> ...



amazingly enough, 
just like Steve5D, Lew is incredibly charming in person. 

dont let their (sometimes) grumpy internet persona fool you.


----------



## limr (May 7, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help. Don't we get the option to say, "I appreciate that you like to show things through edits, but I'd rather have a different form of feedback right now."

THIS is my main issue with the whole argument, the whole "We know what's best for you better than you know yourself" attitude.



> There are people at different levels and many people come here specifically for help.
> My attitude is that, if someone needs and wants help, then it's my choice how best to give it and, if the person doesn't want it in the manner I would chose to give it, *I walk away*.



So walk away - what's wrong with that? If someone has missed out on what you feel was an opportunity, then it's that person's problem, not yours.

Yes, it's your choice to give help in the way you want to give it, but you're again assuming that your best way of giving help is also the other person's best way of receiving help. That's not always true. So really, who's limited in that situation? *Both of you are*: you for having such a strong preference about how you offer help, and the other person for having a preference that doesn't fit yours. So are you supposed to change how you offer help. NO. Let me say that again because I don't want it to get lost or misinterpreted. NO, you shouldn't have to be forced to give help in a way that is not comfortable to you. This is a forum, not a classroom, and it's not your job to go research different teaching methods. *But neither should the other person be required to change their learning preference to fit your style of help.*

Yes, there are people at different levels, and some might need more help than others or ASK for help more than others. But can't they still make their own decisions about how they want to learn? I understand the suggestion that people might want to allow editing, but what I don't understand is this insistence that it is ALWAYS the best way and that we all should be open to it, whether we like it or not.



> Interestingly, film-shooters have the least to gain from editing help. Most of the decisions have been made by the time that the image is seen and, in my opinion, the bar for an OK image using film is set lower than digital just because viewers recognize that film is harder.



Not touching this one.


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## limr (May 7, 2014)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?
> ...



Oh please.

Are you also not limited by not being able to verbalize your advice if that is how the person is asking to get their feedback?

You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.

And now I'm going to limit myself to discussions other than this one.


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## JacaRanda (May 7, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



Never met either in person,  but I really get the feeling that this is true.  Just a hunch


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 7, 2014)

limr said:


> You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.


No, I'm not at all.
Let me quote myself...
"Allowing editing, *opens doors for DIFFERENT avenues *if learning, of seeing, of thinking, *VISUALLY*, for everyone involved."


There are instances that text will convey the message just fine.
You have to admit, though, that an image is *SOMETIMES* the best way to get the point across.


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## runnah (May 7, 2014)

I am 100% aboard the Dave train on this one.

Elle, how do you correct papers?


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## The_Traveler (May 7, 2014)

limr said:


> The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help. Don't we get the option to say, "I appreciate that you like to show things through edits, but I'd rather have a different form of feedback right now."
> 
> THIS is my main issue with the whole argument, the whole "We know what's best for you better than you know yourself" attitude.



I see that.
So your decision about the way help is given should trump the way that the giver thinks is best.

In the first 'Scary Movie' a beggar asks a passerby, Anna Faris,  for a dollar to buy some food and instead Anna Faris gives him a sandwich she had bought for her lunch.
As Faris walks away, the beggar looks at the sandwich and then throws it at her back, yelling, "*****, I said I wanted a dollar."


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 7, 2014)

limr said:


> The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help.



Umm, that applies to text critique as well. So, your point is lost.

Everyone should be operating on the idea that all critique is opinion.
Presenting opinions opens the door for discussion, and different people will take away different points from that discussion. An image that conveys ones opinion, gets the point across immediately, without every one involved having to go do it themselves to visualize it. It's one thing to suggest an image is underexposed, it's better to show what the helper believes to be ideal, and then with that immediate visual, discussion can unfold.


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## limr (May 7, 2014)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.
> ...



Now let me quote MYself from several pages back:



limr said:


> Again, I need to stress that I DO think that this kind of feedback can be useful, but I do NOT understand what's wrong with not wanting to give carte blanche to anyone at any time to do whatever they want to my photos.



I've said from the start that yes, editing is useful, but that I feel that I *should have a say* in whether or not someone gets to edit my own work for the sake of showing me something. I know what I'm asking for, and if I feel an edit would be useful to answer that question, then I will say at the start, "Feel free to edit this if you want." But if I'm asking for something else or don't actually even want feedback for a particular picture, then give the edits a rest. 

The setting has nothing to do with how I feel about editing, either in general or as a learning device. It simply says "Ask me first." I don't know how many more times I have to say that.



runnah said:


> I am 100% aboard the Dave train on this one.
> 
> Elle, how do you correct papers?



I don't 'correct' them, actually. For more 'macro' issues like organization, errors in logic, lack of a clear thesis, I'll suggest things like "put another example here" or "this should be rearranged" or "you're going off the topic in this paragraph." For more 'micro' edits, like grammar or punctuation, every once in a while I'll just put the correct form, but mostly, I will draw their attention to a word or phrase or incorrectly used punctuation, and tell them what KIND of error was made (subject-verb agreement, run-on sentence, incorrect word form) and they have to correct it themselves.

They would learn nothing if I simply wrote all the correct forms. Part of my task as a teacher is to teach them how to correct themselves. 



The_Traveler said:


> I see that.
> *So your decision about the way help is given should trump the way that the giver thinks is best.*


*
*
No, you have misunderstood. My decision is that it should be a collaboration between the two. The decision should not be solely in the giver's hands, either. 



> In the first 'Scary Movie' a beggar asks a passerby, Anna Faris,  for a dollar to buy some food and instead Anna Faris gives him a sandwich she had bought for her lunch.
> As Faris walks away, the beggar looks at the sandwich and then throws it at her back, yelling, "*****, I said I wanted a dollar."



Seriously? You're comparing me to a beggar on the street in a movie scene? Because that's not patronizing at all.


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## limr (May 7, 2014)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help.
> ...



The decision of HOW to give the critique, not the content of the critique itself.


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

Oh you guys...   Always a passionate discussion over here.

    I'll say this...  As a songwriter, I HATE collaborating, but I generally like the result better.  I'll bring a song to the guys that I think is "finished" and they want to play around with it.  When one of them says "well what if we did....X", how would it look if I sat with my arms folded and refused to participate, so we couldn't hear what it sounded like with their idea incorporated.  

    Hearing that your artwork isn't perfect kinda sucks.  Being shown that it's not perfect sucks a little more.  On the other hand, if someone takes your artwork and makes it look like steamy crap, that's probably worst of all.

    Would I let Willie Nelson re-arrange one of my songs?  Yep.  Would I let Lincoln Park or some other "garbage that Mishele listens to (love ya)" band do it?  Hell no.

    Maybe we need a third option... "My photos are OK to edit as long as you don't suck at what you do".


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## mishele (May 7, 2014)

ffarl said:


> Would I let Lincoln Park or some other "garbage that Mishele listens to (love ya)" band do it? Hell no.
> 
> .



lol Linkin Park does not suck!

Bitter...:hail:


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.


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## mishele (May 7, 2014)

ffarl said:


> Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.


Don't you have some work to do or something?!


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## robbins.photo (May 7, 2014)

mishele said:


> ffarl said:
> 
> 
> > Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.
> ...



I guess my question would be if we finally figured out where Lincoln parked, why is it we still don't know who's buried in Grant's tomb?


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music.  I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park?  Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance!  Do you really want to be responsible for that?


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## pixmedic (May 7, 2014)

ffarl said:


> I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music.  I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park?  Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance!  Do you really want to be responsible for that?



or even :shudder: nickleback.....


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> ffarl said:
> 
> 
> > I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music.  I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park?  Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance!  Do you really want to be responsible for that?
> ...



   There's no coming back once you go there.  Even I can't help those poor souls.


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## mishele (May 7, 2014)

ffarl said:


> I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music. I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park? Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance! Do you really want to be responsible for that?



Please see link...
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/off-topic-chat/359044-linkin-park-doesn-t-suck-hehe.html


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## table1349 (May 7, 2014)

ffarl said:


> I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music.  I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park?  Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance!  Do you really want to be responsible for that?


Now this is GOOD music.


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

I agree 100%.


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## manaheim (May 7, 2014)

This thread has devolved... to nickelback? lol

Awesome.


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## mishele (May 7, 2014)

Nickelback sucks!


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## BGeise (May 7, 2014)

mishele said:


> Nickelback sucks!



What!?!  What grounds do you have for that statement


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## Civchic (May 7, 2014)

BGeise said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > Nickelback sucks!
> ...



Listening to nickleback.


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## BGeise (May 7, 2014)

Or linkin park both bands have made millions no their songs. Now i will be the first to admit their music has changed drastically since they started but they did that to keep up with what their fans wanted. So i can't really early then for what they did even though that technically makes then sell outs. What would you do if all you did was take landscape photos and someone offered you a lot of money to take pictures of their cat which you hate doing but you have to pay the bills so you do it anyway. That's how life works its all about the money


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## ffarl (May 7, 2014)

They are totally within their rights to make whatever kind of music they want, especially if it pays.  I'm in no position to call them out for it.  I gave my honest opinion, that's all.


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## sleist (May 7, 2014)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Allowing editing, opens doors for different avenues if learning, of seeing, of thinking, visually, for everyone involved.
> 
> Not allowing editing, closes those doors for everyone, including yourself.



The problem with this statement (as well as the rabbit's OP) is that it assumes circumstances bordering on forum utopia.

I always had my setting set to allow until I realized:

1. Very few people offered to edit my images as critique.

2. Very few people offer to critique either verbally or by editing, so I saw no point in allowing editing.

3. I decided to stop editing other people's images to make my points and felt I should change my preferences as a result.

I get the sense that people are blaming the lack of C&C they give on not being able to edit images.
My experience over the past 5 years is that it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Regarding #3 - IMO, there is very little anyone can do to a reduced size jpeg without butchering it - apart from cropping suggestions.
I don't really see the point.  Perhaps I'm missing something.


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## The_Traveler (May 7, 2014)

sleist said:


> Regarding #3 - IMO, there is very little anyone can do to a reduced size jpeg without butchering it - apart from cropping suggestions.
> I don't really see the point.  Perhaps I'm missing something.



Yes, you are but since you have shown yourself not to be ignorant, I can only assume you have not seen the hundreds of responses that are made with editing that have helped the poster.
Perhaps not by you, but by others.


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## AlanKlein (May 7, 2014)

When someone posts an edit of my picture that is better than mine, my first feeling is, holy cow, the nerve, followed by "why didn't I think of that?"   My ego gets bruised.  So I can understand the feeling of who wants edits.  Suggestive edits posted in words don't highlight my "mistakes" the same way.  But I've gotten past my ego and appreciate the fact that I may have missed something in my own edits that would be very helpful to me if shown in a picture edit.  Be brave.


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## table1349 (May 7, 2014)

If it ain't BACH.....it blows.  








Rock on Johann...


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## Derrel (May 7, 2014)

BGeise said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > Nickelback sucks!
> ...



Their videos and their CDs make a pretty good case that they are the Wonder Bread of whiny, fake-angst-y, sell-out "music"...lots of whiny droning-on....gawd...Nickleback...


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## table1349 (May 7, 2014)

For those that need some instruction on the music of P.D.Q. Bach please enjoy this.





You are not qualified to give C&C on classical music.


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## sleist (May 7, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding #3 - IMO, there is very little anyone can do to a reduced size jpeg without butchering it - apart from cropping suggestions.
> ...



No, I suppose I haven't.  Then again, I was thinking this suggestion was directed at *anyone* who didn't allow editing.
I assume that newbies mostly allow editing or don't specify - which I guess they do since hundreds have been helped.

I suppose I just wanted to offer the flip side.  I get the sense that people think someone that doesn't allow editing also doesn't want critique.
I can only speak for myself, but I can say that is not the case for me.

I and it's all about me anyway, right?


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## bribrius (May 8, 2014)

everyone is different. At this point, I need to be really careful of the type and amount of outside influence im getting. I started this twenty years ago, took a long long break. started again last year. im not having it f-ed up again.
Usually im looking for specific things, often sooc things. I don't even like to edit my own photos. If I post a photo It is most likely a. im screwing off. b. something in particular I need to figure out im working on. c. to see if im getting too far out in left field with a approach.

usually none of the above require a edit from a someone. Too much input, especially a edit I toss the photo completely, as it is nolonger "from me". so anything I post on here will more likely end up being tossed even after a in depth cc never mind a edit. 
The best help I have received, was on directions on where to go, written, concerning something or a general written critique to let me know how far off I am in my thinking. The actual photo posted may be one of ten I have going that direction. Editing that one photo does not do much good it is useless. It had nothing to do with a edit. I posted a entire string of photos last week "cc not needed" as not to waste anyones time or my own. Came back with a specific question of leveling and drastic lighting issues, which I could have fixed myself shooting at a different time, but was determined to do it a certain way. Edits don't help in these situations it is FAR beyond a edit. im not looking to fix a photograph usually, I don't care about the photo. im developing a way I shoot, how I shoot, and the direction im going forward in. Most of this will mess me up, not help me. Im blocking the majority of it out, honestly. For my own sake.

specific things, if I need something. I figure ill let them know and be thankful if someone is there to help at the time. The post, edit, learn thing. im all set with that. Really. It is counterproductive for me more than anything. im blocking it out. I see where other people might be on a different path, for them perhaps they should allow free edit of their photos.
Me, im just not going the direction most of the other responders seem to be, im going another one which makes me happier. Doesn't mean I wont learn from a edit, means it will probably be few, far between, and mostly counter productive and a waste of everyones time making me toss the photo after. I don't keep photos influenced by others I throw them. Others, may have different views and needs. Everyone is different.


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## bribrius (May 8, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> If it ain't BACH.....it blows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







:thumbup:


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## cynicaster (May 8, 2014)

An edit can be used to speak for itself, or it can be used to complement a written critique.  I don&#8217;t know why some people in this thread seem to be talking like the two approaches to communicating an idea are mutually exclusive.
If somebody does an edit to your photo that you don&#8217;t like or agree with, just put your big person pants on and walk it off, the same as you would do with written advice you don&#8217;t like or agree with
If you&#8217;re so thin-skinned and/or self-important that you simply cannot abide the bitter sacrilege of your precious 800x600 jpeg being besmirched by the airbrushes of the unwashed masses, then for the love of God, don&#8217;t post the stupid thing on the internet


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## limr (May 8, 2014)

I don't know about anyone else, but my choice has exactly nothing to do with the thickness - or lack thereof - of my skin. Don't assume that the decision on edits is based solely on how we may or may not take criticism.


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## table1349 (May 8, 2014)

Perhaps we should do away with ok or not ok to edit.  Instead you could just have a second avata like.......


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## DanOstergren (May 12, 2014)

I've never liked strangers editing my photos, whether they are trying to help or not. Anyone can accuse me of whatever they like to because of it, but it just comes down to the simple fact that my photos are my babies; I create them, I care for them, and I edit them to my liking. It's my art and my outlet. I simply do not like others to touch them. So sue me. If ever I choose to allow someone to edit my photos, it will be MY choice, not the choice of some schmuck on the internet who thinks they are entitled to change my art to their liking because they think it will help me. MY art, MY choice.


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## DanOstergren (May 12, 2014)

limr said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but my choice has exactly nothing to do with the thickness - or lack thereof - of my skin. Don't assume that the decision on edits is based solely on how we may or may not take criticism.


Quoted for truth.


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## e.rose (May 12, 2014)

Funny enough... I JUST changed my status to that yesterday.

Because I forgot that it still said it was okay.

And. Quite Frankly. When dealing with client images... it's not. 

If someone REALLY wants to show me an edit... they can ask me if I'm okay with it (and I'll probably say yes as long as it's something reasonable), but no, I'm no longer allowing my images to be a free-for-all. 

I think everyone has their reasons for doing things the way they do.

If you really want to show someone something, and it says you can't edit their images, just ask them. If they still say no... their loss, and no skin off your nose.


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## e.rose (May 12, 2014)

limr said:


> Sorry, but a good teacher should be able to break things down in a way for a student to understand. We've all known those folks in front of a classroom who might have been brilliant but couldn't teach for crap (which is why I call them 'folks at the front of the classroom' rather than 'teachers.') Some people don't know how to explain steps of a process to beginners, and yet a beginner asking for help needs exactly that: certain things to be broken down, not just the final answer.
> 
> I might know exactly how to fix a paragraph one of my students wrote, and it would be a HELL of a lot easier to simply re-write the paragraph to 'show' them how to do it, but ultimately, what HELPS the student more is to let them do it themselves.
> 
> It's not all about how the teacher prefers to communicate. The teacher must also take into account how the student will receive the information, because if that is ignored, then truly no "communication" has taken place.



Agreed on all these accounts.

Especially your last one, because the fact of the matter is... any of the edited photos I received when I first started out never really helped me without that long explanation attached to it anyway.

Someone would post a photo and then I'd have to ask, "How did you do that exactly?" and then they'd have to take the time to write out 5 paragraphs anyway. 

There were maybe one or two instances where I remember distinctly asking someone for a visual, because I just couldn't understand what they were saying in text, but those were exceptions to the rule.

I'm DEFINITELY a visual learning, but like you said... just seeing the END result alone didn't help me. I needed the verbal explanation to go along with it, and often times that was enough on it's own.

(And also I'm TOTALLY stubborn and DEFINITELY a "I WANNA DO IT MYSELF!" type of person. :lmao: )


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## e.rose (May 12, 2014)

limr said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but my choice has exactly nothing to do with the thickness - or lack thereof - of my skin. Don't assume that the decision on edits is based solely on how we may or may not take criticism.



[I didn't realize this thread was 13 pages long when I posted, so I skipped all the sh*t in between and jumped to the last page...]

ALSO quoted for truth.

The fact that I have changed my status has NOTHING to do with my lack of ability to take critique. If anything I find myself saying after I post, "Yeah. I'm really glad they love these all, but I really miss the days when someone would give me actual CRITIQUE and not just pats on the back". 

Getting critique is the only way I ever got better.

I still get critiqued now. I just tend to do it other places that are much scarier than TPF is for me anymore, because no one here really critiques my stuff anymore. 

That's not a fault of TPF either. Most of the community here are new shooters... so there isn't anything for them to critique (or at least they feel not), and the people who are BETTER than me are most likely the type of people who refuse to critique others on the internet because it never ends well (Although, I really wish ya'll would. Cause I need you to. And when I can say I can take it... I REALLY, REALLY, mean that. :lmao: ).

So it's not lack of thick skin at all.

It's because I've been paid to produce those images and I don't really want variations floating around online when it says in my contract that the clients IN the images are not allowed to edit them.


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## e.rose (May 12, 2014)

DanOstergren said:


> I've never liked strangers editing my photos, whether they are trying to help or not. Anyone can accuse me of whatever they like to because of it, but it just comes down to the simple fact that my photos are my babies; I create them, I care for them, and I edit them to my liking. It's my art and my outlet. I simply do not like others to touch them. So sue me. If ever I choose to allow someone to edit my photos, it will be MY choice, not the choice of some schmuck on the internet who thinks they are entitled to change my art to their liking because they think it will help me. MY art, MY choice.



Amen, brother.


----------

