# Depth of Field Question



## SoulfulRecover (Jan 21, 2014)

I asked on another forum with zero feed back so I figured I should ask on a forum that has a lot more traffic.

In this photo: *** | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (First photo I found for an example) and many like it, how is the DoF created? Is it a combination of using a longer focal length lens, wide aperture and getting a bit lower to create the blur in the foreground and back ground? Or was PP used to help create that? 

I have seen this in many portraits and have always wanted to learn how to do it. In a large format class I took, the teacher was able to create this look but Im assuming it was because of the movements she used with the bellows and a wide aperture rather than the focal length of the lens. We used the same lens through out the class and I never had that style of DoF. 

Hopefully that makes sense and someone has some insight into it.


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## The_Traveler (Jan 21, 2014)

DOF is constant with focal length, it is the aperture that controls the DOF and the quality of the blur is specific to the actual lens you are using.

See* this *for a good explanation.


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## paigew (Jan 21, 2014)

She uses a long focal length (135mm) and shoots pretty wide open (f2.5 in that shot)


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## runnah (Jan 21, 2014)

One of my favorite easy to understand explanations.


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## The_Traveler (Jan 21, 2014)

> [/QCLARIFICATION: FOCAL LENGTH AND DEPTH OF FIELD
> 
> Note that focal length has not been listed as influencing depth of field, contrary to popular belief. Even though telephoto lenses appear to create a much shallower depth of field, this is mainly because they are often used to magnify the subject when one is unable to get closer. If the subject occupies the same fraction of the image (constant magnification) for both a telephoto and a wide angle lens, the total depth of field is virtually* constant with focal length! This would of course require you to either get much closer with a wide angle lens or much further with a telephoto lens,



Understanding Depth of Field in Photography


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## SoulfulRecover (Jan 21, 2014)

Apparently I was taught incorrectly about focal length and DoF (Maybe I wasnt paying attention?). A longer focal length lens just changes the distribution of where the out of focus areas are. 

Thanks for the read up


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## KmH (Jan 21, 2014)

Many that teach photography may not understand DoF as well as they think they do.

I've posted many times here at TPF about how lens focal length DoF remains constant as long as subject scale in the image is maintained.
Longer focal length lenses magnify blurred background elements making them appear more OOF when they really aren't more blurred and are just bigger in the image frame.

By the same token, many people only consider the far limit of DoF and rarely if ever consider the near limit of DoF, and using the near limit to aid the use of 'selective focus'.

In the amateur photographer community it is dogma that a 50 mm f/1.8 lens is a desired portrait lens. That dogma seems to result more from the low priced "nifty fifty" 50 mm lenses that deliver less than quality bokeh (blur visual quality, not the blur itself) rather than the more expensive and longer focal length prime and zoom lenses professional portrait photographers routinely use.

No doubt, for many amateur portrait photographers, space limitations may pose a restriction on the lens focal lengths they can use.
However, I think even that aspect of the issue is over stated because the distance difference between using 85 mm instead of 50 mm for a head and shoulders shot is a single, somewhat longer than normal, step backwards.


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## runnah (Jan 21, 2014)

Well I stand corrected.


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## Robin Usagani (Jan 21, 2014)

In addition to long focal length and large aperture, people use clone tool to get rid the bright areas.  Then they also use adjustment brush on LR with clarity slider to minimum and they use it on the background.  That will make the background even creamier.


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## Rye (Jan 21, 2014)

I could be wrong, but IMHO it looks like the ground at the bottom of the frame was blurred artificially. It just has that tilt-shifty look to it.


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## 480sparky (Jan 21, 2014)

Rye said:


> I could be wrong, but IMHO it looks like the ground at the bottom of the frame was blurred artificially. It just has that tilt-shifty look to it.




I'd say it's been Shopped.  There should be parts of the ground at the bottom left and right that should be as pin-sharp as the child and dog are.  It appears there's been some in-post hanky-panky done.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 21, 2014)

Perhaps an accurate observation there about hanky-panky Sparky-parky. lol But to try to give it the benefit of the doubt, maybe something got lost in translation when the images were reposted on other sites, I think it was photoshopped/blurred and may or may not have been shot using existing light (the light source doesn't make sense to me because the dog has light apparently hitting its left front leg, but maybe it was more sunny than it appears and the background was blurred/darkened to enhance the foggy effect).

The depth of field refers to the distance of the area that's in focus, between you & your camera and what's in the distance in front of you - that's the field of view, what you can see. That distance varies - if your lens is wide open, less distance will be in focus; if you shut down the lens all the way and focus to infinity then everything between you and infinity would be in focus. And other apertures in between would create a different depth of the field of vision for each aperture. 

If your instructor had a field camera I suppose she could have cranked the bellows back into the camera to create a really narrow field of view, and depending on the lens she might have been able to blur a lot of background. (I haven't used a large format camera but I'm basing my thoughts about the field camera on what I've read and from having used an original Lensbaby which is basically a really small bellows of a sort that you can tilt and shift; but the effect doesn't look like the sample photo of the boy and dog, that seems to be a short wide lens and PP effects).


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## robbins.photo (Jan 21, 2014)

runnah said:


> Well I stand corrected.



New Orthopedic shoes?


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## robbins.photo (Jan 21, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Perhaps an accurate observation there about hanky-panky Sparky-parky.



Oh crap.  My Suess meter just redlined and then exploded.. lol



> lol But to try to give it the benefit of the doubt, maybe something got lost in translation when the images were reposted on other sites, I think it was photoshopped/blurred and may or may not have been shot using existing light (the light source doesn't make sense to me because the dog has light apparently hitting its left front leg, but maybe it was more sunny than it appears and the background was blurred/darkened to enhance the foggy effect).



Thing that really struck me is I've never seen a dog who's fur stops with a distinct outline all the way around the animal.  No little bits and tufts standing up here and there.  And that is hanky panky, snappy wappy.  Oh.. ouch.. That actually hurt.   Yup.. time to replace the early Suess warning system I guess.  Lol


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## TCampbell (Jan 21, 2014)

Nothing suspicious here -- that image is no problem.  It's one of the reasons I love my 135mm f/2 lens.  

So... having peeked at the EXIF data, I grabbed my 5D II, my EF 135mm f/2L lens and looked quickly for something to demonstrate this.  It's managed to warm all the way up to 12ºF outside (friggin' cold!) so I decided to just do this indoors.  I used the rug with the intricate pattern as this would make it easy to see where the focused range begins and ends -- plopped this ornate candle on it -- and took a shot at the same f/2.5 focal ratio used in the shot with the St. Bernard and child.

Here's the result (and, btw, this is straight-out-of-the-camera -- no processing of any kind (well... I think the act of importing the image into Aperture auto-applies *some* processing... but not much.)


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## Derrel (Jan 21, 2014)

FotoForensics - Analysis


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## timor (Jan 21, 2014)

runnah said:


> Well I stand corrected.


Almost. It starts to be tiring. No one, absolutely no one makes an effort to read about the optics. we called ourselves advanced amateurs, that should be understood better. Not some video spreading fallacies. The first one and the one most damaging is calling "apparent sharpness" a "*focus*". Incredible, that still this is going on with us. Explanation of DoF in cameras without a movements is very simple and the secret is in understanding the behavior of circles of confusion and human eye perception.
Here is much better explanation of DoF:
Depth of Field
still, it doesn't explain, why stopping down the aperture is making CoC smaller.
This article also explains how to calculate the hyperfocal distance and what is a diffraction and how this influences DoF - apparent sharpness of the photograph.


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## timor (Jan 21, 2014)

Derrel said:


> FotoForensics - Analysis


Derrel, that's fantastic. What are you making out of it ? Boy and dog were cloned into the landscape image ?


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## SoulfulRecover (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the great information!


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## weepete (Jan 21, 2014)

Yep, boy and dog were shot on a different background, the uneaven dof in the foreground gives it away. That is some custom PS work. Looking at her images she knows how to hide the blend well between to different images. 

There's a few shots like the little kid on the pier that are cute but no way that shot is real.  Not whey shot in her portfolio is PSed though, I think there are a few with clever use of delibetatley angled DOF.

Question is does that make these imagesit's a bit seem like its a bit of a cheat?


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## SoulfulRecover (Jan 21, 2014)

At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?


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## robbins.photo (Jan 21, 2014)

SoulfulRecover said:


> At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?



Well that is probably going to be wildly a matter of opinion of course - for me I like stuff that is close to straight of the camera as possible.  I don't mind some sharpening or maybe some small amount of cloning to remove small distractions, etc.  Some folks of course prefer more post processing - for me there is a line where I consider it no longer a photograph.  Some folks flirt with that line, or put a toe across it now and again, this lady pole vaulted over it.. rotfl.


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## Robin Usagani (Jan 21, 2014)

SoulfulRecover said:


> At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?



Until people question it.


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## timor (Jan 21, 2014)

weepete said:


> There's a few shots like the little kid on the pier that are cute but no way that shot is real.
> 
> Question is does that make these imagesit's a bit seem like its a bit of a cheat?



And I was thinking it was a perfect use of fill in light. 

It is hard to say, if it is a cheat, after all it is a digital age of digital art, sky is the limit. What feels like a cheat is her innocent story. Now is clear, why the boy do not smile, he was following the orders, he didn't feel like doing.  It feels like a cheat to present something other people will think: "i can do it to with my camera, this is just a loving mother with a year of photographic experience, there must be a way for me to." Her images are still nice to look at, just now they feel like work of Norman Rockwell.


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## Derrel (Jan 21, 2014)

SoulfulRecover said:


> At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?



The 23 Worst Photoshop Fails Of 2013

Seems like some people really are unsure of when enough is enough...


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## apaflo (Jan 21, 2014)

SoulfulRecover said:


> At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?



 The more experience and the more talent you have the sooner, the later, and the greater you manipulate.  Even the average beginner usually realizes they need to manipulate quite a bit long before they press the shutter button.   Oddly it seems they don't notice that for what it is.  And many never realize, even after decades, that the manipulation is best continued right up to the point where a viewer's eyes land on the image.

That is to say, it's manipulation when you frame the image for exposure, and continues to be even as you frame the print for viewing.  Being aware of each and every step will produce better photography.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

We may have new saying for over manipulated images: "Gone Russian Mother". :mrgreen:


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## Derrel (Jan 22, 2014)

apaflo said:


> SoulfulRecover said:
> 
> 
> > At what point does the work transition from photography to photo manipulation?
> ...



Agreed. Manipulate,manipulate,manipulate, and just look what can be accomplished.


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## Braineack (Jan 22, 2014)

Rye said:


> I could be wrong, but IMHO it looks like the ground at the bottom of the frame was blurred artificially. It just has that tilt-shifty look to it.



While she's a great photographer, she's also a great digital artist and knows how to maniuplate those pixels well.  It's compeltely obvious to me just be glancing at it.


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## TCampbell (Jan 22, 2014)

weepete said:


> Yep, boy and dog were shot on a different background, the uneaven dof in the foreground gives it away. That is some custom PS work. Looking at her images she knows how to hide the blend well between to different images.
> 
> There's a few shots like the little kid on the pier that are cute but no way that shot is real.  Not whey shot in her portfolio is PSed though, I think there are a few with clever use of delibetatley angled DOF.
> 
> Question is does that make these imagesit's a bit seem like its a bit of a cheat?



Not necessarily... you'd have to go read their tutorials on how to interpret analysis.  I ran my own image (the candle on the rug -- which I deliberately didn't touch with anything just to see what would happen.)

It turns out the different brightnesses of the pixels simply mean the JPEG compression has changed.   This will NORMALLY happen on areas with sharper edges.  When I run the candle through the analysis (it's a pain to do it with an image posted to this site... I did it yesterday by uploading to Flickr, running the analysis against that site, then deleting it (it's not like I want this test-shot in my stream).  If someone wants to run it through, have at it (it's just a test shot).  

What I saw was that each of the "holes" in the candle had a bit of a highlight around each edge.  The potpourri around the base of the candle also shoed up brightly (lots of sharp edges down there).  Also... a line extended all the way across the scene in the area where the rug comes into sharp focus.

I suspect the dog and boy probably had sharpening applied.  You could always test this with any of your images... just upload an untouched image, upload it and do an analysis, then apply sharpening to an area and repeat.  I suspect you'll see the sharpened area shows up brightly.


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## Braineack (Jan 22, 2014)

they aren't necessarily shopped in the bg, but the boy and dog were sharpened and the DOF was manipulated for sure; it was probably ran through Alien Skin Bokeh 2 or alike, it has that look to it.  Some of her other work is a bit more obvious: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75571860@N06/9480698774/


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## runnah (Jan 22, 2014)

timor said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Well I stand corrected.
> ...



How about this video?


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## Braineack (Jan 22, 2014)

Take to the sea!


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## ronlane (Jan 22, 2014)

Is it possible that OP's picture reference (who used PS according to the exif info) used Gaussian blur on the background and a layer mask on the parts that she did not want effected?

I am not discounting the 135mm doing a good job of dof, but the photo looks to me like the Gaussian blur is plausible.


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## runnah (Jan 22, 2014)

ronlane said:


> Is it possible that OP's picture reference (who used PS according to the exif info) used Gaussian blur on the background and a layer mask on the parts that she did not want effected?



That is 110% PS. No lens can achieve that look. She's got some sloppy edge work in spots and the area around the tails and boots has been manipulated.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

runnah said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


You are excused .


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

runnah said:


> . No lens can achieve that look.


 Why not ?If you have lenses which can focus mutiple distances at once, maybe there is more magic in it ?
The image of the dog and a boy was cloned on that BG.


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## runnah (Jan 22, 2014)

timor said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > . No lens can achieve that look.
> ...



Not in a circular fashion. Maybe if she was using a PC lens, lens baby or free lensing, but even then it's a linear field.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

runnah said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


I am just kidding. But there is a real discrepancy between her pictures and her story. She said she is using only 135 mm on FF camera. Probably it's a Lomo lens.


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## runnah (Jan 22, 2014)

timor said:


> I am just kidding. But there is a real discrepancy between her pictures and her story. She said she is using only 135 mm on FF camera. Probably it's a Lomo lens.



I haven't followed the story. Is she saying these are SOC? 

She does have a nice subject separation because of the dogs fur being so crisp but foreground and edges were done in post.


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## SoulfulRecover (Jan 22, 2014)

runnah said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > I am just kidding. But there is a real discrepancy between her pictures and her story. She said she is using only 135 mm on FF camera. Probably it's a Lomo lens.
> ...



I dont believe the article said anything other than that shes been shooting for a year on her land which happens to have an exotic array of animals and landscape


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

runnah said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > I am just kidding. But there is a real discrepancy between her pictures and her story. She said she is using only 135 mm on FF camera. Probably it's a Lomo lens.
> ...


Derrel delivered this:
FotoForensics - Analysis
Boy and dog shows exactly same characteristics like her logo and logo is always cloned in.
Story is here:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...l-pictures-her-two-kids-animals-her-farm.html


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## Derrel (Jan 22, 2014)

I think her pictures are very nice. I look at them as being a modern version of pictorialism. You know, pictorialism, just one hundred years later.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

Derrel said:


> I think her pictures are very nice. I look at them as being a modern version of pictorialism. You know, pictorialism, just one hundred years later.


I agree with that, she found a way to create very atmospheric pictures.


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## Braineack (Jan 22, 2014)

I mean it's obvious she chops the F out of these, I'm not sure why we are still debating.


like look at this: 500px / Untitled by Elena Shumilova

it's clearly two different backgrounds, she didn't even try hard to get the same perspective on the boy/dog to the path cutting in on the right.

the clump of leaves on the left bottom corner is EXACTLY the same as the ones in the first photo linked, yet the BGs has changed...

The tire tracks in the photo I linked here can be seen in the first photo linked as well...

These are multiple exposures/brenizer method, and lots of post work.  the end.


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## weepete (Jan 22, 2014)

TCampbell said:


> weepete said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, boy and dog were shot on a different background, the uneaven dof in the foreground gives it away. That is some custom PS work. Looking at her images she knows how to hide the blend well between to different images.
> ...



I wasn't talking about the anyalysis mate, just looking at the DOF in her Flickr image and the way it wraps round the boy and the dog instead of being a straight line like in your example. Now that I've looked at it again the blending between the two different layers in the foreground is really obvious and it stands out quite a bit.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks Braineack.  Sharp eyes.
We debate it, I guess, because she is a surprise. Innocent story, beautiful pictures and a lot of work like for just an amateur, a loving mother just shooting some memories of her kids. Why to make false memories ? Just trying out the skills for something bigger ? Making a name for herself ? You know, in the story is not that important who, where, when but why.


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## Derrel (Jan 22, 2014)

Apparently, this woman is trying to paint herself as a "newbie who hit it big-time." You know--a woman who had never picked up a camera until recently, and is now hitting home runs, working in solitude on some forlorn Russian farm, happily snapping piccies of her darling kids and the animals that live there with them in peace and harmony in the Russian hinterlands. You know...it's a really,really great story. The overnight sensation made it big story.

Riiiiight, yeah. Sure. Gotta love the story underlying this. Key word, underlying...

The pics are interesting though. Amazing how she got so amazingly good in such a minimal amount of time. I mean, she must be unbelievably talented.

This is exactly the kind of story the click-bait sites like PetaPixel love to plaster all over their front page, which is where I first saw this almost-unbelievable story about this Russian mother.


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## Braineack (Jan 22, 2014)

I don't even care how she creates them, still great.    But I mean, they are CLEARLY shopped.


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## timor (Jan 22, 2014)

Derrel said:


> The pics are interesting though. Amazing how she got so amazingly good in such a minimal amount of time. I mean, she must be unbelievably talented.


talented she is, but do not believe in handicapped angels.
Sashbar wrote in: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...pictures-her-two-kids-animals-her-farm-3.html

"She is an architect, graduated from Moscow Architecture Institute. This is an academic institution, that means 5 years of a rather broad and intensive education, including art, history of art, design etc. It involves a lot of drawing , painting etc. So she must be well versed in formal things like Bauhaus principles and aestetic, composition, color, shapes, contrasts, perspective, space organisation, landscaping and forms. As for digital photography, I could not find any traces of intensive training. She bought her first camera in 2012, as she says. Re photography itself it looks like she was completely self taught, just a mother of two sitting home with her kids. And her portfolio is quite small for a serious portraiture pro. Very few images outside her own kids. But the speed of her progressing from simply good shots, that would be praised on this forum, to her later work, that is verging on art, is just staggering. She is claiming that photography became her second profession. She has her own kids photographer blog and a Facebook page that states she is a professional photographer. From what I see she is just trying to promote herself, having realised the potential of her work. Nevertheless, she is not a typical farmer, but a pretty typical affluent Moscovite. Just way more talented than most."

That's why her story is ?????:badangel: 
I think modern architectural training may involve quite a lot of computer training. Then one has a friends, side interest, additional, not listed education, extra course etc.


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## NikonNovice (Feb 11, 2014)

I learned about DOF on a film camera, and I always think of it as light being the picture transmission medium. So letting more light in gives a faster transfer of the picture, and a shallow DOF. This being the most desired effect for lots of pictures. This is where bokeh comes into play. This means that the parts of the picture that are not in focus have a nice pattern, or are pleasing look at. I'm a novice, so I would be pleased if someone corrected me. When the lens is closed down, and less light is let through, it takes a long time to expose the picture, so the DOF is much greater.
When I think back to the film days, the DSLR is mind boggling in comparison. The film speed is electronic, and in most cases the current ISO settings have no relation to the ISO of film from years ago. It is almost like our cameras are limitless it abilities compared to the film days. We can now stretch a lens ability to make it do things that were impossible with film cameras.


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## midomidi2013 (Apr 6, 2014)

Just Keep Shooting


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&#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1605;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610;&#1590; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1606;&#1602;&#1604; &#1608;&#1578;&#1594;&#1604;&#1610;&#1601; &#1593;&#1601;&#1588; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1605;&#1587;&#1578;&#1608;&#1583;&#1593;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1604;&#1578;&#1582;&#1586;&#1610;&#1606; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604; &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1591;&#1576;&#1582; &#1581;&#1604;  &#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1601;&#1575;&#1593; &#1601;&#1575;&#1578;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610;&#1575;&#1607; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1586;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1593;&#1586;&#1604; &#1605;&#1575;&#1574;&#1610; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1579;&#1575;&#1579;  &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1585;&#1610;&#1607;&#1575;&#1578; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1578;&#1575;&#1574;&#1585; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590;  [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWdPClHtLLU&feature=youtu.be]&#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1588;&#1576; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1606;&#1602;&#1604;  &#1575;&#1579;&#1575;&#1579; &#1585;&#1582;&#1610;&#1589; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578; 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