# Nature Lovers, Sign the Petition



## SleepingWolf

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## waday

Real men (and women) shoot with cameras, not guns.


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## waday

SleepingWolf said:


> Captive lion I shot (with a camera) at the SF Zoo. I did not maim him with an arrow and then let him suffer for 40 hours, after luring him off his reserve (illegally), shooting him with a rifle, skinning him, taking his head off to brag about it, and then trying to destroy the GPS tracking device.



FIFY.

I wonder if he's taken poor Cecil's head into hiding with him.


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## tirediron

Moved to Off-topic since this isn't really a photography-related discussion.


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## tirediron

SleepingWolf said:


> thank you for burying it where nobody will see it..btw , I posted a picture, so what's the problem?


 Really?  Since you OP contained no image and a potentially controversial topic, it had no place in an image gallery.  I could have simply deleted it out-of-hand based on the strong likliehood of the thread turning into a train-wreck, but instead, I simply moved it to the appropriate forum.


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## Braineack

oh zimbabwe, im going to shake my finger at you. stop it. stop.    






there i signed the petition...


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## limr

It's not the first time he has been caught hunting illegally. He also had to pay to settle a sexual harassment suit.

This guy just keeps getting worse.


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## Designer

_*".. who paid $55,000 for a hunting permit.."
*_
Who got the money?  Is Mugabe selling hunting permits to enrich himself?


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## limr

Designer said:


> _*".. who paid $55,000 for a hunting permit.."
> *_
> Who got the money?  Is Mugabe selling hunting permits to enrich himself?



That's what he paid to the company he hired to take him on the hunt. There are a lot of those companies and professional hunters that arrange big game hunts for rich folks.

Walter Palmer 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know Heavy.com


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## JacaRanda

Glad his guides are getting some of what they deserve.


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## terri

SleepingWolf said:


> This guy describes himself as a wildlife photographer.


So he's a liar as well as a hunter/killer of endangered species.   

I signed a petition a day or two back.   Whether he faces charges remains to be seen...but it seems since public reaction is not being kind,  the universe is getting him, whether the law does or not.


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## tirediron

I don't think there's any need for lawyers, courts or any of that rubbish.  Just take him back to the park and (using whatever method(s) are required) make him personally apologize to Missus Cecil


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## Overread

A custodial sentence might be the best thing for him now; whilst what he has done is no worse than what other big game and endangered species hunters have done he's gained a lot of public lime-light in a bad way so getting into a nice safe cell might be a good thing for him.

Personally I hope that the backlash isn't focused on him at all; he's quite honestly small-fry. He's one man doing this and not even one organising; just taking advantage of existing ways into poaching. In my mind the ones in the lime-light should be the poachers themselves who arranged this hunt as they are the ones who were going to arrange the death of that lion and many others - the dentist was just the one who happened to be paying for this particular kill. IT could just as easily have been anyone of a number of other hunters. 

Hopefully it gains enough attention in the public eye to do some good; though I'd be sceptical and wonder if the good done will last more than a month or two. 

I'm reminded of what I heard in India where many native people do elephant rides to see the tigers and how when they were away from their working areas for a few days doing another event there was a spike in poaching of tigers that they were unable to prevent and a myriad of new traps/snares and such that had to be removed. People don't really appreciate that its a kind of war-zone of tourist VS poacher. $50,000 is a lot in the USA, its even more in 3rd world countries so for a poacher its the kind of sum worth taking a big risk for. Even in teh west that's a near 2 years semi-decent income and one year very good income in one huge lump sum


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## Designer

Is there no one but me who thinks Robert Mugabe is somehow involved?  The government takes NOTHING?  I'm not buying into that.


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## limr

Designer said:


> Is there no one but me who thinks Robert Mugabe is somehow involved?  The government takes NOTHING?  I'm not buying into that.



Well, the landowner is being charged along with the professional hunter that was in charge of the hunt. According to that article I linked to earlier:

"“Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management as the Regulatory Authority and custodian of all wild animals in Zimbabwe issues hunting permits and hunting quota for all hunting areas in Zimbabwe so that only animals on quota are to be hunted. In this case, both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt,” the agency said."

So...the government gets money for permits and probably bribes for the illegal hunts. It says earlier that it IS legal to lure the animal, but only if it is lured to an area that is allowed a quota of kills of that animal. So if it had been a leopard, apparently, the hunt would have been legal, but it was a lion and there was no lion quota in that area. Apparently, if that happens, the hunters just lie about where the animal was killed, and you can be damn sure there is some money changing hands to make sure that no one questions the lie. I think the only reason they got caught this time was because the lion was famous and no bribe was big enough to hide that.

How much of this filters up to Mugabe? Who knows. All I know is that an obscene amount of money is being passed around the business of killing these animals *just for sport*_, _and I think it's disgusting, legal or not.


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## JacaRanda

Designer said:


> Is there no one but me who thinks Robert Mugabe is somehow involved?  The government takes NOTHING?  I'm not buying into that.



Wondering what government that does not take something.  Pretty much a given.  Just guessing


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## robbins.photo

Overread said:


> A custodial sentence might be the best thing for him now; whilst what he has done is no worse than what other big game and endangered species hunters have done he's gained a lot of public lime-light in a bad way so getting into a nice safe cell might be a good thing for him.



Ok, not that I'm totally opposed to the voice of reason here, but frankly your ruining what could otherwise be a first rate lynching.  Just saying.



> Personally I hope that the backlash isn't focused on him at all; he's quite honestly small-fry. He's one man doing this and not even one organising; just taking advantage of existing ways into poaching. In my mind the ones in the lime-light should be the poachers themselves who arranged this hunt as they are the ones who were going to arrange the death of that lion and many others - the dentist was just the one who happened to be paying for this particular kill. IT could just as easily have been anyone of a number of other hunters.



Ok, have to agree with you there.  Crap.  Took me almost an hour to rig this hangman's noose too.  Sigh.



> Hopefully it gains enough attention in the public eye to do some good; though I'd be sceptical and wonder if the good done will last more than a month or two.000
> 
> I'm reminded of what I heard in India where many native people do elephant rides to see the tigers and how when they were away from their working areas for a few days doing another event there was a spike in poaching of tigers that they were unable to prevent and a myriad of new traps/snares and such that had to be removed. People don't really appreciate that its a kind of war-zone of tourist VS poacher. $50,000 is a lot in the USA, its even more in 3rd world countries so for a poacher its the kind of sum worth taking a big risk for. Even in teh west that's a near 2 years semi-decent income and one year very good income in one huge lump sum



Well in Zimbabwe their dollar is so undervalued that 60 grand us is something like 22 Million in their dollar.  It's so bad a lot of locals don't even use the local currency.

I think the other thing a lot of people don't appreciate is that Zimbabwe is a war zone in more than one respect - and while I'm sure all the locals probably raised cain when they found out where the lion actually came from I'll be willing to bet that it didn't stop them from eating it first.  Sad reality in that part of the world I'm afraid.

So yes, like you I do hope that something good comes out of all of this, but truthfully I'm not holding my breath.  Africa is... well it's Africa.  It's kind of hard to explain until you've lived there.


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## AlanKlein

The dentist is probably arranging to pay a fine (public and under the table) to make this all go away.


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## floatingby

Latest I've seen is that the 2 houses and clinic of the dentist are being stalked by activist, and his current whereabouts is unknown. If he didn't regret his action before, I'm sure he does now, he's at the center of a good old fashioned witch hunt.


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## AlanKlein

I doesn't make sense that after paying $50,000 for fees and licenses, this dentist would do the hunt illegally.  Why?  Lions and other big game are hunted in Zimbabwe and many other countries in Africa paying high fees and all done legally.  It's more likely that if anything was done wrong, it was the guide who did it.  Unfortunately, this dentist is now caught up in a political maelstrom.  Zimbabwe for political reasons wants to prosecute to get the heat off of them.  The American government should check into this and if it appears he did nothing wrong or just a minor infraction, they should not expedite him.  Despite people's opposition to trophy hunting and what happened to this lion, the American government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from wonton prosecution in other countries.   Arrangements should be made that at the most a fine be paid.  Let the guides deal with Zimbabwe legal system since they appear to be the main culprits.


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## Designer

AlanKlein said:


> I doesn't make sense that after paying $50,000 for fees and licenses, this dentist would do the hunt illegally.  Why?  Lions and other big game are hunted in Zimbabwe and many other countries in Africa paying high fees and all done legally.


You answered your own question.  

It is legal to hunt lions in Zimbabwe, as long as you pay for a hunting license.

If somebody would take my bet, I would bet that Robert Mugabe got the lion's share of the money.


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## limr

AlanKlein said:


> I doesn't make sense that after paying $50,000 for fees and licenses, this dentist would do the hunt illegally.  Why?  Lions and other big game are hunted in Zimbabwe and many other countries in Africa paying high fees and all done legally.  It's more likely that if anything was done wrong, it was the guide who did it.  Unfortunately, this dentist is now caught up in a political maelstrom.  Zimbabwe for political reasons wants to prosecute to get the heat off of them.  The American government should check into this and if it appears he did nothing wrong or just a minor infraction, they should not expedite him.  Despite people's opposition to trophy hunting and what happened to this lion, the American government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from wonton prosecution in other countries.   Arrangements should be made that at the most a fine be paid.  Let the guides deal with Zimbabwe legal system since they appear to be the main culprits.



First of all, there were supposedly permits, but the permits were not for killing lions. They had permits for an area that did not have a lion quota. THey were apparently trying to bait a leopard, but then the lion showed up. At that point, a person might think, "I have permits to kill a leopard, but that's a lion, so maybe I shouldn't shoot it." And yet, he shot the lion anyway. Even if Palmer didn't realize the limitation of the permit when he first shot the lion with the bow, and even if he continued to not know over the course of the next 40 hours before they finally killed the lion, he certainly DID know that something was wrong when they found the dead lion with a tracking collar on. Then he at least watched (if didn't actively take part in) the attempt to destroy that collar so they wouldn't get caught. He might have not realized exactly at the moment when the hunt turned into an illegal one, but he had to have known by the end. How could he not? He clearly didn't care enough to do anything about the crime. This doesn't sound like someone with a clean conscience.

And he's also done this before. Walter Palmer Lied to the Feds About a Bear Hunt in 2006 Heavy.com


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## tirediron

We can speculate forever on this, but given the locale, it's highly unlikely that we will ever know the true facts of the case, save one:  This is a scum-bag; the lowest form of life on the planet, who thinks that killing for the sake of killing is acceptable.  All I'm going to say on the subject is:  Karma; she's a <female dog>.


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## robbins.photo

AlanKlein said:


> the American government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from wonton prosecution in other countries.



Well, you apparently have way more faith in them than I do.  Sort of reminds me of a quote from a movie:

"We spend 250 billion dollars a year on defense. And here we are. The fate of the planet is in the hands of a bunch of retards I wouldn't trust with a potato gun."


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## NancyMoranG

She :"honey, I don't think you should go.."
He : "stop worrying, what's the worst that could happen?"


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## Overread

Fashion - Food - Prestige - Medicine - Religious - Construction - Energy supply 

We've a huge list of reasons why our society kills animals; sometimes on  the small scale and sometimes on an insane scale. I think we must be careful that we do not highlight prestige as something so alien as the rest of our reasons that it becomes a witch-hunt upon it. 

What it as issue here isn't trophy hunting in itself alone; what it is is the unlawful killing of an endangered animal which should have been under the protection of those who arranged the hunt. 

We cannot forget that urban expansion, farming, conflict, food, etc.... are all additional reasons that animals, even those which are endangered, are killed for. In my view if we want to protect we MUST take a wider view. To niche it to just trophies allows many other groups to get away with things; sometimes on a FAR larger and more damaging scale.


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## AlanKlein

SleepingWolf said:


> So hard to believe that someone would actually protect his guy. Blame the guides? Because of his urge to kill?  WOW Alan, you are one strange man.


Look. I'm not a trophy hunter or a hunter at all.  I have no interest in shooting Cecil or Bambi.  However, you can't prosecute someone for legal actions done because you don't like the sport of hunting.  What you're saying is that every hunter who kills for sport should go to jail.  That's an extreme position.  Change the laws in Zimbabwe if you think it's not right.  If he violated the law, then that's what he should be prosecuted for.  But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?  While this case is slightly different because he shot the animal, he appears to have relied on his guides to set up the proper procedures.  The guides should suffer the brunt of the penalties.  (The guide is currently out on bail of $1000).  At maximum the hunter should be secondary and pay a fine.


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## Designer

We can wait from now till domesday for the so-called "news" media to do some actual reporting, but my money is still on Robert Mugabe, or his henchmen, and yet the animal lovers will never hear of it.


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## limr

AlanKlein said:


> But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?  *While this case is slightly different* because he shot the animal, he appears to have relied on his guides to set up the proper procedures.  The guides should suffer the brunt of the penalties.  (The guide is currently out on bail of $1000).  At maximum the hunter should be secondary and pay a fine.



No, this case is a lot different.

Even if the hunter thought it was legal (and you can't convince me that he left that country believing he did something totally legal), he still participated in illegal activity. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Yes, the guides were worse, but this guy is NOT just an innocent bystander. He DID do something wrong and should be held accountable. He wasn't just along for the ride.


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## limr

Man who studied Cecil the lion for 9 years talks impact


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## tirediron

limr said:


> Man who studied Cecil the lion for 9 years talks impact


That seems to be the most reasonable account I've seen so far.


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## snowbear

AlanKlein said:


> But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?


IMO, this is not a valid comparison.  As the hunter, he should know what the rules are.


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## tirediron

snowbear said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is not a valid comparison.  As the hunter, he should know what the rules are.
Click to expand...

Agree; if he's pulling the trigger, he's ultimately responsible.


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## robbins.photo

snowbear said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is not a valid comparison.  As the hunter, he should know what the rules are.
Click to expand...


Ok, don't disagree with you here persee, but I think maybe there is some bigger picture stuff here that might help explain why I'm not all that keen myself on turning this guy over to Zimbabwe's "authorities".

Do some reading on the "Green Bombers" sometime, what they call the "National Youth Service" in Zimbabwe.  Having some idiot dentist shoot a lion for no other than reason that he felt it was "sport", that sucks.  But compared to most of the stuff that goes on over there?  Doesn't even count as a blip on the atrocity radar I'm afraid, and that's just the atrocities that are government sponsored.

So do I feel a lot of sympathy for the Dr. Diplittle?  Nope.  But trust me when I tell you that turning him over to Zimbabwe, well the punishment definitely doesn't fit the crime.


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## AlanKlein

snowbear said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if the guides were responsible, you can't send the hunter to jail.  If I hire a limo driver, and he speeds, am I responsible?
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is not a valid comparison.  As the hunter, he should know what the rules are.
Click to expand...


Look, I fish off New Jersey on charter boats.  The rules on the size of the different fish and quantity you can take varies season to season and can change during a season.  Location matters too.  Upper NJ into NY harbor, you have to take larger fish.  Lower NJ you can take smaller fish.  Where the line is known by the captain.  He steers the boat and knows where that line is.  You rely on the captain and his crew to keep current and to tell you what you can and can't take.    If he steers in to northern Zone, he has to be the one to advise you can only keep the larger fish.   And this is in a place where I live all year long.   If you were to fish, or hunt, in a country on another continent, you're even more reliant on your guides.  If the guide takes you to a place where he says you can take a lion, how would you know different?   Of course the hunter or fisherman is ultimately responsible.  So maybe, if I was the dentist, and the guide was the one who steered me wrong, I would sue the guide (who is licensed) for failing to do his job properly and causing me to lose my business and reputation.  (Note that I haven't read anything that the guide said that put any blame on the hunter).  If an accountant misfiles you tax return due to error on the accountant's part, he has to reimburse the penalty if not the interest that the IRS imposes.  (Well you could get into a lawsuit with him.)

If it turns out the hunter was complicit in setting up an illegal hunt, than all bets are off and I'd agree with you.  But that just doesn't seem reasonable at this point because he paid $50,000 for the hunt.  While I understand why people are upset, it was the guide who should have made sure the hunt was completely legal.


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## rexbobcat

He pleaded guilty in 2008 for poaching a black bear.

He knew what he was doing.

What we know about Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer - StarTribune.com


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## EIngerson

Good lord…. 

I'm glad our priorities are straight….

A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on. 

How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none. 

Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened. 


Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.


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## JacaRanda

EIngerson said:


> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.


Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.


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## EIngerson

JacaRanda said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
Click to expand...



I can agree with that.


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## JacaRanda

You spend 50k to go to a foreign country with a corrupt government to kill something....but knowing rules should be left up to a couple of guides?  WOW.


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## robbins.photo

JacaRanda said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
Click to expand...


I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.

But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.

For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.

But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on. 

Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online

Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.

But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.


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## rexbobcat

EIngerson said:


> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.



I forgot that we can only care about, and discuss, one issue at a time. My bad.

I mean, you're worried about a few puny murders in your backyard? Don't you know there's a BILLION DOLLAR SEX TRADE? Children and young adults are sold into sex slavery, sometimes by their own families, and no telling how many are killed after a certain point to keep things hush hush.

People's priorities are all wrong indeed.

Besides, it's not like poaching is a problem or anything.


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## AlanKlein

rexbobcat said:


> He pleaded guilty in 2008 for poaching a black bear.
> 
> He knew what he was doing.
> 
> What we know about Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer - StarTribune.com



Well, maybe he poached the lion, and maybe not.     The article you reference says this:

_"The Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife Authority and the Safari Operators Association said Tuesday that Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter, lured Cecil to a farm owned by Honest Trymore Ndlovu, where the lion was killed by an American tourist. Both Bronkhorst and Ndlovu have been arrested, and Zimbabwean authorities said they are looking for Palmer in connection with the case."_

There's no comment regarding whether the hunter was present when the luring was going on or that the guides set this up beforehand.  Even if the dentist was present, how would he know the lion  came from a protected area?  Luring lion and other animals for the hunt is standard procedure and not illegal.


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## AlanKlein

I wonder how many lions previously were lured by the guide to the farmer's property to be killed by other visiting hunters.  The dentist may be just the last hunter in a long line of illegal hunts set up by this guide and his friend the farmer whose farm is adjacent to a natural preserve loaded with lions to be hunted if just drawn over to the farm area.  Easy and profitable business and the visiting hunters  are just saps caught up in a fraud.  Unfortunately, Cecil was the last of the lions and the whole thing blew up in the guide's and farmer's face and now the dentist is caught up in it as well.


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## rexbobcat

AlanKlein said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> He pleaded guilty in 2008 for poaching a black bear.
> 
> He knew what he was doing.
> 
> What we know about Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer - StarTribune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, maybe he poached the lion, and maybe not.     The article you reference says this:
> 
> _"The Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife Authority and the Safari Operators Association said Tuesday that Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter, lured Cecil to a farm owned by Honest Trymore Ndlovu, where the lion was killed by an American tourist. Both Bronkhorst and Ndlovu have been arrested, and Zimbabwean authorities said they are looking for Palmer in connection with the case."_
> 
> There's no comment regarding whether the hunter was present when the luring was going on or that the guides set this up beforehand.  Even if the dentist was present, how would he know the lion  came from a protected area?  Luring lion and other animals for the hunt is standard procedure and not illegal.
Click to expand...


I don't know what he did or didn't know, but given his history, I have no doubt he didn't care where the animal came from and wouldn't have been above it if he thought he could get away with it.

I've met enough trespassing unlicensed hunters on my dad's land to know that the "Trespassing? Killing without a license or lease to hunt on this land? I had no idea!" speech isn't so innocent. I have no sympathy for the guy.

That being said, I do think the news and social media have blown this up beyond what it should be.

It's all just an emotional circlejerk. This guy has become the face of poaching in general, which isn't fair to him, but it gives people the warm and fuzzies because it gives their righteous anger some specificity rather than just "Poachers kill animals illegally!? This is an outrage! Please validate my slacktivism on your Facebook feed."

It has all the parts to be a PERFECT media storm:

Rich white guy
American
Previous issues with the law for a similar situation
Killing or an animal that the West has romanticized
As a trophy
Using his wealth
Did it by luring the animal out
Hunter has disappeared

It's got something for everyone. The animal-rights people are mad because, duh, it's killing an animal. The hunters are mad because of the illegality and because they feel the hunt is unethical in the first place.

Even if he didn't break the law, you would still have people saying "Well, he should be shot anyways."


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## AlanKlein

How many other people in Zimbabwe were getting paid off by the guide and farmer for this illegal activity?  That's why for the US government to send the dentist back there would be insane.  The Zimbabweans would use him as a scapegoat to protect their illegal deals.


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## EIngerson

rexbobcat said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot that we can only care about, and discuss, one issue at a time. My bad.
> 
> I mean, you're worried about a few puny murders in your backyard? Don't you know there's a BILLION DOLLAR SEX TRADE? Children and young adults are sold into sex slavery, sometimes by their own families, and no telling how many are killed after a certain point to keep things hush hush.
> 
> People's priorities are all wrong indeed.
> 
> Besides, it's not like poaching is a problem or anything.
Click to expand...


Actually, your interpretation of my comments is a little off. 

My point is, daily we're seeing the list of things I mentioned in the media. Now we're cold to it. A lion being killed in a country 99.99999% of the people upset have never been to or cared about in their life has the world crying. It's comical. If people's hearts bleed that much for things happening in foreign countries read up and get upset about real problems there. 

My bad for not being specific with my thoughts. But yeah, sex trade is in our back yards too.


----------



## EIngerson

AlanKlein said:


> How many other people in Zimbabwe were getting paid off by the guide and farmer for this illegal activity?  That's why for the US government to send the dentist back there would be insane.  The Zimbabweans would use him as a scapegoat to protect their illegal deals.




Not many, they don't care. Read up on it.


----------



## robbins.photo

SleepingWolf said:


> Sorry but the topic, even though it was moved here, is a call to action to have a scumbag extradited. The call to action was not to save the planet.



Which makes me truly wonder if you actually understand where it is you are advocating he be extradited too, and what will likely happen to him once the media spotlight is switched off.


----------



## EIngerson

SleepingWolf said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check the subject line before you spew stupidity out.
Click to expand...


I did read the subject line. So?


----------



## rexbobcat

SleepingWolf said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> He pleaded guilty in 2008 for poaching a black bear.
> 
> It's all just an emotional circlejerk. This guy is the face of poaching in general, which isn't fair to him, but it gives people the warm and fuzzies because it gives their righteous anger some specificity rather than just "Poachers kill animals illegally!? This is an outrage! Please validate my slacktivism on your Facebook feed."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god. It's not about legal or illegal. The legal part is just a pretext to get this guy shamed and ideally jailed. It's about maiming endangered species (not just lions), skinning them alive, and cutting off their heads to mount in their dens. Notice once more the subject line is for Nature Lovers. If you don't qualify don't pollute this thread. The same people who tolerate the slaughter of African wildlife would go ape **** if there little lap dog or cat came home with an arrow through its head.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Please be careful. Your heart is bleeding all over my black soul. Looks like I'm just gonna dirty this thread up worse than the Olympic stadium in Brazil (context: AP Investigation Olympic teams to swim boat in Rio s filth

In all seriousness, what exactly do you want Americans to do about the killing of animals in Africa other than (apparently) shaming one individual into hiding?

Like I said, this man has become the face of trophy killing. But what about after he fades from the media? After the momentum is gone, people will move onto the next police murder or school shooting, get outraged for a while, and then move onto the next Monsanto meltdown or "What dumb thing did this politician say? You'll never guess!"

It's the essence of social media. It's slacktivism. It's seeing an individual break the law in the same way that many before him have broken the law and paid the price, but this time, paying the legal price is not enough. Off with his head. Literally? Figuratively? Nobody knows, since these social lynchings don't really make much logical sense.

This story is the perfect, shareable, emotional porn.

I think it was an awful thing that he did both from a moral and ethical standpoint. I think he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and I'm not saying he should be exempt from the social responsibility that he has for his actions, but I'm also not going to act like me bitching about it for a few days on social media and then throwing a few bucks at a dubiously helpful charity is going to help much to actually stop it from happening.

And I'm certainly not going to go online saying "I think we should put him out in a pasture and let a lion eat him" is in any way a sound, or rational statement, which is a concept many people can not comprehend.

I stop dealing with people whose actions I find distasteful. But I don't set out to ruin their livelihood (unless their actions directly relate to what they do for a living...such as stealing photos or something...). That's some next level vengeance - and irony - that I don't feel comfortable engaging in.


----------



## EIngerson

robbins.photo said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.
> 
> But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.
> 
> For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.
> 
> But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on.
> 
> Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.
> 
> But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.
Click to expand...


Agree with you 100%. The "international" issue with this is one corrupt(probably wealthy individual) had the smarts to see a capitalist opportunity in going after an American. It's nothing more than a target of opportunity much like shooting a Lion in Zimbabwe. 

No one over there cares about this cat. lol. I guarantee if this dentist offered the guy that's raising all this stink $50,000 to take him on another hunt, he'd jump on it. And do what any good hunting guide does…. make the hunt successful!!!!


----------



## EIngerson

SleepingWolf said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SleepingWolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check the subject line before you spew stupidity out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did read the subject line. So?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Subject line is for Nature Lovers????? Get it??? That's why I had posted this in the Nature forum, apparently in flagrant disrespect of the all the rules and regulations to make sure we conform.....as if I've never posted photos of nature here....I guess I'm just a spammer.
Click to expand...


So your assumption is that "hunters" like myself are not nature lovers? 

I think you should get your facts right.


----------



## robbins.photo

SleepingWolf said:


> His dental practice is ruined, he will pay the price jail or not - you should see the Yelp reviews. Already one airline has banned trophies. There are 1 million people who have signed the petition referenced above.  I'm not into social media but I'm a believer now.



Well if the petition is supposed to be to get him extradited, I guess it proves that their are 1 million people who are completely ignorant of just what sort of "justice system" he'll face over in Zimbabwe.  If they had a clue I doubt any of them would have signed it.

I have no love for the guy, don't get me wrong.  But the sort of "justice" your advocating when you start rallying to have him extradited is not justice, it couldn't really be classified as vengence.  Were talking about a government that trains 9 year olds for milita's to kill political opponents, cuts off peoples feet, and honestly that's just the tip of the iceberg.  The list of atrocities they commit are nearly endless.

Granted what this guy did was stupid but I wouldn't turn anybody over to a government like they have in Zimbabwe.

I honestly don't think you really understand what it is your advocating here.


----------



## robbins.photo

EIngerson said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.
> 
> But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.
> 
> For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.
> 
> But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on.
> 
> Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.
> 
> But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree with you 100%. The "international" issue with this is one corrupt(probably wealthy individual) had the smarts to see a capitalist opportunity in going after an American. It's nothing more than a target of opportunity much like shooting a Lion in Zimbabwe.
> 
> No one over there cares about this cat. lol. I guarantee if this dentist offered the guy that's raising all this stink $50,000 to take him on another hunt, he'd jump on it. And do what any good hunting guide does…. make the hunt successful!!!!
Click to expand...


Having lived over there I can tell you that the "villagers" that the press reported were "crying for justice" had almost certainly eaten the lion shortly after it was shot.

That's just the way it is - Africa is just.. well, it's hard to explain I guess.  You just can't believe that stuff like that could happen in the real world, but it does all time over there.


----------



## EIngerson

robbins.photo said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.
> 
> But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.
> 
> For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.
> 
> But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on.
> 
> Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.
> 
> But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree with you 100%. The "international" issue with this is one corrupt(probably wealthy individual) had the smarts to see a capitalist opportunity in going after an American. It's nothing more than a target of opportunity much like shooting a Lion in Zimbabwe.
> 
> No one over there cares about this cat. lol. I guarantee if this dentist offered the guy that's raising all this stink $50,000 to take him on another hunt, he'd jump on it. And do what any good hunting guide does…. make the hunt successful!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having lived over there I can tell you that the "villagers" that the press reported were "crying for justice" had almost certainly eaten the lion shortly after it was shot.
> 
> That's just the way it is - Africa is just.. well, it's hard to explain I guess.  You just can't believe that stuff like that could happen in the real world, but it does all time over there.
Click to expand...


I've been there too and couldn't agree more. African life style and beliefs do not translate well into American hype.

edit: And I hope the people that are ignorant to it never have to understand.


----------



## rexbobcat

robbins.photo said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.
> 
> But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.
> 
> For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.
> 
> But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on.
> 
> Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.
> 
> But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree with you 100%. The "international" issue with this is one corrupt(probably wealthy individual) had the smarts to see a capitalist opportunity in going after an American. It's nothing more than a target of opportunity much like shooting a Lion in Zimbabwe.
> 
> No one over there cares about this cat. lol. I guarantee if this dentist offered the guy that's raising all this stink $50,000 to take him on another hunt, he'd jump on it. And do what any good hunting guide does…. make the hunt successful!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having lived over there I can tell you that the "villagers" that the press reported were "crying for justice" had almost certainly eaten the lion shortly after it was shot.
> 
> That's just the way it is - Africa is just.. well, it's hard to explain I guess.  You just can't believe that stuff like that could happen in the real world, but it does all time over there.
Click to expand...


I don't want to minimize the horribleness of poaching (it's still a conservation threat for many species), but I found this quote in an AP article.

_Outside Zimbabwe's environmental and activist circles, however, the reaction been muted.

"It's so cruel, but I don't understand the whole fuss, there are so many pressing issues in Zimbabwe — we have water shortages, no electricity and no jobs — yet people are making noise about a lion?" said Eunice Vhunise, a Harare resident. "I saw Cecil once when I visited the game park. I will probably miss him. But honestly the attention is just too much."
_
I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it. What I don't understand is the picketing, and the ruining of his business, and, I assume if he ever comes back here and isn't imprisoned, the harassment that he's going to face. Given the social media response, you'd think he was the one who shot Kennedy.

I give him no sympathy for the legal repercussions he will face or the opinions that will be made about him, but there's a difference between holding an opinion about a person and trying to negatively affect unrelated portions of their life.


----------



## EIngerson

rexbobcat said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would add we should not be perplexed on who profits,  from hunts in Africa or wars in Iraq.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess it kind of baffles me a little, I mean I realize that the folks that are up in arms about this have their hearts in the right place and I really don't fault them for being upset with the dentist.
> 
> But when you see 9 year old kids given AK-47's and forced into becoming killers for a local militia, given illegal drugs and forced to take them, etc - well when this is more or less commonplace practice it gets pretty hard to muster any righteous indignation over some bozo killing the wrong lion.
> 
> For me the thought of hunting any lion, well, it's repugnant.  I'm not "anti-hunting" persee, but I guess I'm of the mind that if it's not something you are going to eat then it shouldn't be something you shoot.
> 
> But knowing what goes on over there, well it sort of gives you a much different perspective on the whole debate.  Things like Gukurahundi,the Green Bombers, the list just goes on and on.
> 
> Wife of Mugabe rival burned alive after having feet hacked off Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stuff like this is par for course, and nobody really seems to get to worked up about it.  Some dentist shoots a lion.. and bam, international outrage.  I mean I get it, I understand why people get worked up over a beautiful critter like that getting put down for no good reason.
> 
> But I guess it just amazes me that all of this other stuff has been going on for years and years over there, and nobody really seems to take much notice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree with you 100%. The "international" issue with this is one corrupt(probably wealthy individual) had the smarts to see a capitalist opportunity in going after an American. It's nothing more than a target of opportunity much like shooting a Lion in Zimbabwe.
> 
> No one over there cares about this cat. lol. I guarantee if this dentist offered the guy that's raising all this stink $50,000 to take him on another hunt, he'd jump on it. And do what any good hunting guide does…. make the hunt successful!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Having lived over there I can tell you that the "villagers" that the press reported were "crying for justice" had almost certainly eaten the lion shortly after it was shot.
> 
> That's just the way it is - Africa is just.. well, it's hard to explain I guess.  You just can't believe that stuff like that could happen in the real world, but it does all time over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't want to minimize the horribleness of poaching (it's still a conservation threat for many species), but I found this quote in an AP article.
> 
> _Outside Zimbabwe's environmental and activist circles, however, the reaction been muted.
> 
> "It's so cruel, but I don't understand the whole fuss, there are so many pressing issues in Zimbabwe — we have water shortages, no electricity and no jobs — yet people are making noise about a lion?" said Eunice Vhunise, a Harare resident. "I saw Cecil once when I visited the game park. I will probably miss him. But honestly the attention is just too much."
> _
> I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it, but I don't really understand why they think "Destroying this person's life" is the best solution.
Click to expand...


Yup.


----------



## robbins.photo

rexbobcat said:


> I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it, but I don't really understand why they think "Destroying this person's life" is the best solution.



Well, I don't really know what all happened over there and truthfully I doubt we'll ever really know with any degree of certainty.  I guess what concerns me is that we live in an age where if you do something stupid and it happens to "go viral" you might very well have your own life destroyed by moral outrage that all too often seems to be fueled by people who never really did get the whole story but rather only a very narrow subset of the facts that was designed for just that purpose.


----------



## EIngerson

robbins.photo said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it, but I don't really understand why they think "Destroying this person's life" is the best solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't really know what all happened over there and truthfully I doubt we'll ever really know with any degree of certainty.  I guess what concerns me is that we live in an age where if you do something stupid and it happens to "go viral" you might very well have your own life destroyed by moral outrage that all too often seems to be fueled by people who never really did get the whole story but rather only a very narrow subset of the facts that was designed for just that purpose.
Click to expand...



Wait, you mean like internet bullying?


----------



## rexbobcat

robbins.photo said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it, but I don't really understand why they think "Destroying this person's life" is the best solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't really know what all happened over there and truthfully I doubt we'll ever really know with any degree of certainty.  I guess what concerns me is that we live in an age where if you do something stupid and it happens to "go viral" you might very well have your own life destroyed by moral outrage that all too often seems to be fueled by people who never really did get the whole story but rather only a very narrow subset of the facts that was designed for just that purpose.
Click to expand...


I have become terrified of sharing almost ANY opinion that requires some amount of rationale or critical thinking. By that, I mean opinions that don't follow the popular dogma of what you _should _believe about the subject according to human emotion.

"So, in 2015 you gave a civil, and reasonable stance that goes against the emotionally charged popular opinion. How would you feel if we posted your home address online so people can send you personalized death threats. Will that make you a better person you piece of filth?"

There's an actual term for this: Doxing

The Internet since the advent of social media, has become umpteen times scarier for the average person.


----------



## EIngerson

rexbobcat said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the moral outrage that Americans have about it, but I don't really understand why they think "Destroying this person's life" is the best solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't really know what all happened over there and truthfully I doubt we'll ever really know with any degree of certainty.  I guess what concerns me is that we live in an age where if you do something stupid and it happens to "go viral" you might very well have your own life destroyed by moral outrage that all too often seems to be fueled by people who never really did get the whole story but rather only a very narrow subset of the facts that was designed for just that purpose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have become terrified of sharing almost ANY opinion that requires some amount of rationale or critical thinking. By that, I mean opinions that don't follow the popular dogma of what you _should _believe about the subject.
> 
> "So, in 2015 you gave a civil, and reasonable stance that goes against the emotionally charged popular opinion. How would you feel if we posted your home address online so people can send you personalized death threats. Will that make you a better person you piece of filth?"
> 
> There's an actual term for this: Doxing
> 
> The Internet since the advent of social media, has become umpteen times scarier for the average person.
Click to expand...



You make a pretty good point with that.  Doxing…. Thanks. New one for me.


----------



## Braineack

I'm trying to figure out where the outrage is for the 100's of other lions killed since Cecil.

You all only care because he had a name and it made the news.


----------



## limr

AlanKlein said:


> How many other people in Zimbabwe were getting paid off by the guide and farmer for this illegal activity?  That's why for the US government to send the dentist back there would be insane.  The Zimbabweans would use him as a scapegoat to protect their illegal deals.



And how many will be out of work now that the lion is dead? Did you even read the article I posted to discussing the impact of killing the lion? And no, not just the emotional impact or legal impact, but the economic impact. Man who studied Cecil the lion for 9 years talks impact

Or maybe you'll ignore this comment as well.



EIngerson said:


> Good lord….
> 
> I'm glad our priorities are straight….
> 
> A cat was killed in Zimbabwe? I've heard 9 amber alerts in the past week. Countless murders on the news in my local area. Thefts, wild fires, govt corruption….the list goes on.
> 
> How many of you gave a damn about a lion 2 weeks ago? My guess is none.
> 
> Hell, the Zimbabwean Govt doesn't even care about this cat. Half of them didn't even know it happened.
> 
> 
> Sorry Tirediron. Couldn't hold back.



Of course there are other problems, but why does caring about one thing mean we don't care about others? Or that we're not trying to help other problems? What am I supposed to do about the amber alerts or wildfires in your area? What are you supposed to do about the poverty and crime in my area? Are we supposed to be outraged all the time at everything?



> My point is, daily we're seeing the list of things I mentioned in the media. Now we're cold to it. A lion being killed in a country 99.99999% of the people upset have never been to or cared about in their life has the world crying. It's comical. If people's hearts bleed that much for things happening in foreign countries read up and get upset about real problems there.



Do you mean to tell me you haven't seen anyone upset about our problems here? Have you not seen he deluge of stories about Sandra Bland or the missing teens in Florida? The people on my Facebook feed who posted about the lion are also people who post about police abuse, about global warming, about local tragedies, about education...the lion was just one in a myriad of things that they care about. And many of them are active in efforts to help.

Most things aren't going to get international attention, but that doesn't mean that they aren't getting attention at all. Most tragedies are more localized and don't affect others farther away. Sometimes, an event captures imaginations and the story spreads. So what if people sometimes latch onto it to feel like maybe they can do something about this one thing? What difference does it make to you? What _really_ is the use of calling us a bunch of idiots for caring about something that you don't care about?



robbins.photo said:


> Having lived over there I can tell you that the "villagers" that the press reported were "crying for justice" had almost certainly eaten the lion shortly after it was shot.



According to the article, no, the villagers didn't eat the carcass. It was picked over by vultures and then the researchers left it for the hyenas to pick the bones clean.


----------



## table1349

Interesting thoughts by a writer in our daily paper.
Questions about lion s death public s reaction to it

_One of the biggest mysteries of the lion ordeal, though, is all of the emotion it’s brought to the world.

It went from breaking news to hysteria almost immediately. I’d like to know why some broadcast personalities got emotionally broken up over the death of a lion, yet they’ve reported on mass murders, wars and catastrophic weather disasters with a straight face?

I’d like someone to explain why our society gets more upset when some animals are killed than when people are killed? Where is all of this fervor for things such as an estimated 3 million children dying in the world annually to malnutrition, or the thousands of people annually who are murdered because of their religion, race, or gender?

If proven guilty, I want Palmer and the others punished, but I don’t understand how animal-rights groups can say that it’s OK for Palmer to be killed for allegedly poaching a lion but they don’t want me to kill a fish to eat? Why are there people who want Palmer executed while they’re against capital punishment for people who kill people?

And I’m wondering where the reported 100,000 who signed an online petition for the U.S. government to get involved have been for the past 40 years?

That’s at least how long biologists have preached it’s loss of habitat and poaching that are the biggest enemies of African wildlife. It’s a continent with some of the world’s fastest population growth and worst poverty. Neither bodes well for wildlife.

I don’t understand how the death of one animal brings more attention than the plight of the entire species.

Several predictions say Kenya, once Africa’s richest country in terms of wildlife, will see its lions go extinct within the next 15 years, though they haven’t allowed hunting since 1977.

Where are the petitions, the late-night hosts spreading the word and gathering funds to reserve chunks of habitat and fund the anti-poaching steps African animal species so need?

Like I said, there’s a lot to this I just don’t understand._


----------



## Buckster

From my earliest memories of hunting and fishing with my dad and granddad, it was hammered into me that the hunt was about bonding between us, but the animals we hunted were exclusively a source of food, not a source of thrills.  I was taught to never kill any animal that I don't intend to eat, and to eat any animal I've killed whether I like it or not.  I was told that it was the way of my family, many of whom are Native Americans who still have enough of the bloodline to be card-carrying tribal members.

I can remember us eating a few critters that weren't considered "good to eat", but we did it anyway because of that basic family principle and the "teaching you a lesson here boy!" aspect of it. 

As such, "trophy hunting" doesn't sit well with me personally.  Doubly so for animals designated for protection, as this lion was.


----------



## Designer

gryphonslair99 said:


> Interesting thoughts by a writer in our daily paper.
> Questions about lion s death public s reaction to it


Some of us marvel at the lack of any sense of proportion.

Yes, I know people who lack a sense of proportion, and I don't think there is any easy fix.


----------



## limr

From Cecil the Lion to Climate Change A Perfect Storm of Outrage Oneupmanship - The Atlantic

"...
Instead, the people who hadn't jumped on the Cecil-outrage bandwagon jumped on the superiority-outrage bandwagon. It’s a bandwagon of outrage one-upmanship, and it’s just as rewarding as the original outrage bandwagon. Anyone can play, like this:

_It’s fine to be outraged about one lion, but what about all of the other lions who are hunted and killed every year?  There are 250 Cecils killed annually across Africa as trophies, and that’s what you should really be outraged by. But good job caring now._

_Actually, what about all of the animals? All of the cattle and fish and brilliant pigs who are systematically slaughtered for human consumption every day? Were you eating a hot dog when you posted that thing about Cecil on Facebook? Anyone who is not vegan is no better than the dentist Walter Palmer. That is what you really should be outraged by._

_Actually, you only care about Zimbabwe when a lion is killed? Great of you. Killing animals is part of the circle of life, but you know what’s not? Human trafficking. People are bought and sold as slaves today all over the world. Why are you talking about one aged jungle cat in a place where the relationship between impoverished pastoralist communities and wealthy foreign tourists is more complicated than you actually understand?_


_And I’m glad you’re so concerned about human trafficking, but there will be no humans at all if we don’t do something about climate change. Reliance on fossil fuels and industrialized farming is the real problem, and that's what you should be outraged by. You don’t know what to care about. I know what to care about._

The Internet launders outrage and returns it to us as validation, in the form of likes and stars and hearts. The greatest return comes from a strong and superior point of view, on high moral ground. And there is, fortunately and unfortunately, always higher moral ground. Even when a dentist kills an adorable lion, and everyone is upset about it, there’s better outrage ground to be won. The most widely accepted hierarchy of outrage seems to be: Single animal injured < single animal killed < multiple animals killed < systematic killing of animals < systematic oppression/torture of people < systematic killing of humans < end of all life due to uninhabitable planet.
..."


----------



## Buckster

Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the *CAT*alyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.

(Sorry - couldn't resist.  )


----------



## table1349

You wait, within 6 months there will be a book out with a title somewhere along the lines of "The Politics of Cecil"


Designer said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting thoughts by a writer in our daily paper.
> Questions about lion s death public s reaction to it
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us marvel at the lack of any sense of proportion.
> 
> Yes, I know people who lack a sense of proportion, and I don't think there is any easy fix.
Click to expand...

At least not a legal socially acceptable fix anyway.     Personally I would vote for the Click & Clack method................A good Dope Slap.


----------



## table1349

Buckster said:


> Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the *CAT*alyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.
> 
> (Sorry - couldn't resist.  )


See Above reply.......Report at 9:00 a.m. for your dope slap.


----------



## AlanKlein

This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe:  Where's the outrage?  This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior.  And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com  87 elephants poisoned.
Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph  300 elephants poisoned.


----------



## AlanKlein

And this all took place in the same Hwange National Park, where the lion lived.


----------



## Buckster

AlanKlein said:


> This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe:  Where's the outrage?  This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior.  And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
> Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com  87 elephants poisoned.
> Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph  300 elephants poisoned.



Interesting how this perfectly ties into the post Lenore made here: 

Nature Lovers Sign the Petition Page 6 Photography Forum


----------



## pixmedic

out here in Central Florida the Cecil story is getting 10 times the media coverage as the 4 marines and one sailor killed in Chattanooga did.


----------



## Braineack

I wanna see more outrage over this:

Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California

when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.


----------



## EIngerson

Buckster said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe:  Where's the outrage?  This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior.  And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
> Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com  87 elephants poisoned.
> Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph  300 elephants poisoned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how this perfectly ties into the post Lenore made here:
> 
> Nature Lovers Sign the Petition Page 6 Photography Forum
Click to expand...



Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault. 

Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;

1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.

The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts. 

It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.


----------



## tirediron

EIngerson said:


> ...
> 
> And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;
> 
> 1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
> 2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
> 3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.
> 
> The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.
> 
> It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.


I'm going to disagree with some of your assertions here.  The doctor was obviously an educated person, and any educated person would be aware that lion hunting, even government-sanctioned lion hunting is not going to be viewed favorably by much of the western world.  Further anyone who is capable of breathing on their own has to be aware of the the political issues in and around Zimbabwe, and with the local economic climate, many people, out of desperation will do almost anything for money. 

Anyone knowingly entering into this arrangement and placing all their trust in the guides without verifying things on their own is an idiot of the first water.  It matters not a whit what the guides did or did not say.  As the person with his finger on the trigger, he bears sole responsibility for his actions.  

With respect to the matter of extradition, if it's demonstrated that he was aware that he was acting illegally, then absolutely he should be extradited.  Just because another country's justice system is a little less pleasant than one's own does not give a person the right to violate that country's laws and get away with it.  This is not unlike the caning incident in Singapore some years ago where the US government interceded on behalf of the student vandal...  if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


----------



## limr

EIngerson said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe:  Where's the outrage?  This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior.  And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
> Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com  87 elephants poisoned.
> Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph  300 elephants poisoned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how this perfectly ties into the post Lenore made here:
> 
> Nature Lovers Sign the Petition Page 6 Photography Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault.
> 
> Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;
> 
> 1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
> 2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
> 3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.
> 
> The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.
> 
> It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.
Click to expand...


I don't agree that the hunter shares the same level of blame as the guides, and I also don't think (and never said) that he should be strung up or thrown into a foreign jail. But I also am at a loss to understand how people think he is squeaky-clean and free of all responsibility. Everyone who knows more about the situation than any of us do all believe he knew what was going on, if not at the start then definitely by the end. And even if the hunt were completely legal from start to finish, even other hunters think it was suspect: Did Walter Palmer give Cecil the lion a fair chase We asked a hunter philosopher - The Washington Post

And once again, _he did not have a permit._ The guides said they had it sorted out but did he check? Did he look at the permit? Was he aware that the permit did NOT allow a lion kill in that area? Did he make sure everything they were doing was under the auspices of that permit? He has to rely on the guides to a certain extent, but someone with his hunting experience should know what's dodgy and what isn't, and should be experienced enough to not just blindly follow everything the guides say with perfect faith. Especially in a place with known issues with corruption! Was he a moron? Or he just didn't care?


----------



## floatingby

EIngerson said:


> Very true, but it kind of proves my point as well. The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head. It's already been pointed out that the guide service put him on the lion. Yet people seem to think the hunter was at fault.
> 
> Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;
> 
> 1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
> 2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
> 3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.
> 
> The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.
> 
> It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.


I don't know how it's done elsewhere, but here it is the responsability of the hunter to secure all the necessary permits before going on a hunt, guided or not.

Not that I agree on the lynching mob running after the doctor, nor did I sign the petition, or think trophy killing is a respectable endeavor.


----------



## EIngerson

tirediron said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;
> 
> 1, That the guide service is going to put them on the animals they are hunting.
> 2, That the guide service is ethical and works within the laws and regulations of the area they guide in.
> 3, That the guide service has the expertise to provide the hunter with a successful hunt.
> 
> The hunter pays to have these expectations met. This particular guide service failed him and no one can wrap their head around who's truly at fault because they want a scape goat. Too bad its a little late for this dentist. All because people can't remove their emotion and look at the real facts.
> 
> It's a shame theirs a petition to extradite this guy, but I understand. It would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention fruitless to go after the real problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to disagree with some of your assertions here.  The doctor was obviously an educated person, and any educated person would be aware that lion hunting, even government-sanctioned lion hunting is not going to be viewed favorably by much of the western world.  Further anyone who is capable of breathing on their own has to be aware of the the political issues in and around Zimbabwe, and with the local economic climate, many people, out of desperation will do almost anything for money.
> 
> Anyone knowingly entering into this arrangement and placing all their trust in the guides without verifying things on their own is an idiot of the first water.  It matters not a whit what the guides did or did not say.  As the person with his finger on the trigger, he bears sole responsibility for his actions.
> 
> With respect to the matter of extradition, if it's demonstrated that he was aware that he was acting illegally, then absolutely he should be extradited.  Just because another country's justice system is a little less pleasant than one's own does not give a person the right to violate that country's laws and get away with it.  This is not unlike the caning incident in Singapore some years ago where the US government interceded on behalf of the student vandal...  if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Click to expand...


I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. They advertised themselves as professionals. 

It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic. 

I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.


----------



## Buckster

Not that I'd have been involved in a trophy hunt in the first place, but if I were the dentist, I hope I'd have questioned why we're luring the cat to some other spot to shoot it, instead of just doing the deed where we found it.  Then again, I'm pretty big on maps and GPS doing lots of research before a big trip like that, and would have likely realized that we were in a wildlife preserve when the "luring away" started.

I think I also would have questioned why this wild cat was wearing a GPS collar.  I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have guessed it was a simple genetic mutation.



SleepingWolf said:


> The petition, and facebook pages, such as this one, have done a fantastic job bringing this issue to the forefront - again the power of social media.
> 
> Have you seen Jimmy Kimmel's youtube video? Seen by millions?


I think that's a really good point about how and why this took off so big and so fast - social media is changing a LOT about the way we perceive the world around us, and how we react to it.

Personally, I think that's a good thing.  I think the individuals in a culture benefit from being able to compare notes with each other instantly, voice their own opinions, to out liars, confirm facts, and so forth, and not rely solely on "the news" to disseminate only what some executive decides we should know about, and spin it the way they want it told.

This story brings to mind the blowup over the Texas cheerleader not too long ago who got raked over the coals for big game hunting a variety of animals such as giraffes and rhinos, then posing with her kills and posting the photos on social media, which resulted in another giant outcry.

Those outcries are saying something about our changing culture.  Are we listening?


----------



## EIngerson

SleepingWolf said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lion story is the fad of the week and media exploited it. Leading to a witch hunt for the dentists head.
> 
> 
> 
> You are probably right, but this dentist is socially and possibly financially ruined. He might face jail time. You don't think that might act as a deterrent for other sick murdering sadists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trophy hunting, whether you agree with it or not, is a legal activity. And when someone goes on a guided hunt they have a few expectations;
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's the problem. It's ok to commit crimes if they are legal, what's right or what is moral doesn't factor in right? So if wife beating or incineration is legal or accepted in certain countries, well that's ok, yes?
> Or is a lion just on this earth so we can kill them because man is the supreme creation?
Click to expand...



First of all, I find your association of "sick murdering sadists" to hunters offensive. 

Second, you have made your comments irrelevant by stating legal things are crimes. What's "right" or what is "moral" is your belief, NOT law. Your personal opinion, no matter how passionate you are, has no relevance to the situation. 

Now do us all a favor. Go educate yourself on how things actually work and make a relevant point because all you've done so far is "spew stupidity".


----------



## table1349

SleepingWolf said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> As such, "trophy hunting" doesn't sit well with me personally.  Doubly so for animals designated for protection, as this lion was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I can understand hunting for food but with the exclusion of endangered species.
> A person who can kill an animal just for its head or for its skin is no different than a serial killer, child molester, or wife beater - preying on the defenceless. The same sick urges.
Click to expand...

Try telling that to the families of:

Joseph Otero
Julie Otero
Joseph Otero, Jr.
Josephine Otero
Kathryn Bright
Shirley Vian
Nancy Fox
Marine Hedge
Vicki Wegerle
Dolores E. Davis

I'm betting that they would not see this dentist as being near the monster that Dennis Rader is.  

Explain to the victims of Yova Kana Shaday how this dentist who killed a lion is just as bad as Shaday is for molesting them.   

Are you going to have years of therapy to cope with the death of Cecil as this victims will?   Will you spend the rest of your life waking up in the middle of the night reliving the death of Cecil as the families of the Rader survivors do remembering the horror of the deaths of parents, children, brothers, sisters, or family members now do?  

While I agree with Buckster on the aspect of trophy hunting, this has gotten blown way out of proportion.   And for those like Jimmy Kimmel for a few laughs and ratings.


----------



## FeatherMonkey

My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?

Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.


----------



## Designer

limr said:


> The Internet launders outrage and returns it to us as validation, in the form of likes and stars and hearts.


Ooo...Ooo..

Can I copy and paste that?  Please?


----------



## Designer

gryphonslair99 said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the *CAT*alyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.
> 
> (Sorry - couldn't resist.  )
> 
> 
> 
> See Above reply.......Report at 9:00 a.m. for your dope slap.
Click to expand...

Hey!  

I inserted a zinger yesterday, and got no dope slap for my effort!

Sheesh!

Not that I actually NEED a dope slap, but it would be nice for someone to at least take a swing at me once in a while.


----------



## Buckster

Let's compare it to all the deaths of the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WTC, 9-11, and the great galactic wars of the Magellan Arm while we're at it, as Lenore's post explained.

That way, we can stop talking about THIS animal and THIS hunter and THIS story and THIS situation, and focus on something else.  Changing the subject is a great way to deal with anything, after all.

Have we heard anyone chime in with the typical and classic copouts, "now's not the time to talk about it" or the famous, "we can't comment while it's still under investigation"?


----------



## Designer

AlanKlein said:


> This is what real poaching is about in Zimbabwe:  Where's the outrage?  This lion issue is all about feeling good; feeling superior.  And then getting back to the Bachlorette.
> Poachers in Zimbabwe poison 87 elephants for ivory official says - CNN.com  87 elephants poisoned.
> Poachers kill 300 Zimbabwe elephants with cyanide - Telegraph  300 elephants poisoned.


Yup.  

No sense of proportion.

At all.


----------



## table1349

Designer said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it just takes one otherwise obscure incident to be the *CAT*alyst that suddenly gets everyone's attention to a bigger problem.
> 
> (Sorry - couldn't resist.  )
> 
> 
> 
> See Above reply.......Report at 9:00 a.m. for your dope slap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey!
> 
> I inserted a zinger yesterday, and got no dope slap for my effort!
> 
> Sheesh!
> 
> Not that I actually NEED a dope slap, but it would be nice for someone to at least take a swing at me once in a while.
Click to expand...

Duly noted and corrected, Your appointment is for 9:05 tomorrow for your dope slap, right after Buckster receives his.  Oh and while were are at it, you get an extra dope slap for pointing out you didn't get a dope slap for something you deserved.  Got to love a tattle tale that tattles on themselves.


----------



## robbins.photo

tirediron said:


> With respect to the matter of extradition, if it's demonstrated that he was aware that he was acting illegally, then absolutely he should be extradited.  Just because another country's justice system is a little less pleasant than one's own does not give a person the right to violate that country's laws and get away with it.  This is not unlike the caning incident in Singapore some years ago where the US government interceded on behalf of the student vandal...  if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.



Going to have to agree to disagree on this one I guess.  If the extradition request were coming from a real government, I'd see your point and agree wholeheartedly.  As it is this is more akin to honoring an extradition request coming from a drug cartel or perhaps the mafia.


----------



## Designer

SleepingWolf said:


> Once the African mammals are extinct (rhinos and *tigers* will go first)


Sorry to have to be the one to break the bad news; African tigers are ALREADY extinct.


----------



## EIngerson

FeatherMonkey said:


> My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?
> 
> Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.



Great question. It's my understanding that the guides were trying to hide the collar from him once they realized it was there.


----------



## table1349

Designer said:


> SleepingWolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once the African mammals are extinct (rhinos and *tigers* will go first)
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to have to be the one to break the bad news; African tigers are ALREADY extinct.
Click to expand...


Kind of like the Lemurs of North America?   But at least the Unicorns are still safe.


----------



## limr

EIngerson said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?
> 
> Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great question. It's my understanding that the guides were trying to hide the collar from him once they realized it was there.
Click to expand...


But he wasn't supposed to shoot a lion _at all_. The permit was to hunt on a section of private land that did NOT have a lion quota. So he shouldn't have shot the lion _because it was a lion_, not just because it was collared. Are you telling me he doesn't know what a lion looks like? As for why they tried to destroy the collar, it wasn't because the collar made the hunt illegal. It was because the collar would lead authorities to the carcass, who would then discover that it was an illegal hunt.


----------



## pixmedic

SleepingWolf said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> out here in Central Florida the Cecil story is getting 10 times the media coverage as the 4 marines and one sailor killed in Chattanooga did.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a pissing contest is it?
Click to expand...


isn't it?
each tragedy vying for its own little piece of recognition, desperately seeking any and every little scrap of attention in the  hopes of getting enough people to demand justice that it will be so, and praying the media distorts as few facts as possible. 
The media is more interested in whipping up viewer and online click frenzy's than actually reporting facts or helping to maintain public order and decency, and the public just eats it up like sugar glazed bacon. mmmmmmmmm bacon. 

Perhaps the greater tragedy here is that the dentist has absolutely _*zero*_ chance of getting any sort of fair treatment. 
He has already been tried and condemned by the media, and I think at this point, it will be completely irrelevant even if he is completely exonerated by official fact finding methods. He is doomed. 

Ive  never hunted, so maybe I do not have as broad a perspective on the subject as those that have, but whatever peoples personal feelings are on the matter, there is absolutely no semblance of  "innocent until _*proven*_ guilty" in this case.  
I don't care much for the thought of killing for sport, or for a trophy. I think the living animal is worth far more than a head or pelt on my wall, but just because I don't like something doesn't mean that those that do should be crucified for engaging in those activities in a legal manner.


----------



## robbins.photo

limr said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?
> 
> Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great question. It's my understanding that the guides were trying to hide the collar from him once they realized it was there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But he wasn't supposed to shoot a lion _at all_. The permit was to hunt on a section of private land that did NOT have a lion quota. So he shouldn't have shot the lion _because it was a lion_, not just because it was collared. Are you telling me he doesn't know what a lion looks like? As for why they tried to destroy the collar, it wasn't because the collar made the hunt illegal. It was because the collar would lead authorities to the carcass, who would then discover that it was an illegal hunt.
Click to expand...


My best guess?  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  The guy probably relied too much on his guides, when they lured the lion out he  probably knew he wasn't supposed to shoot it but since everybody else was making it seem like no big deal he went and did it anyway.

Later on he realizes how badly he screwed the pooch after seeing the collar and putting 2 and 2 together, but after that it's too late.  So he hightails it back to the states.  I doubt the guy is as pure as the driven snow, and I'm not even certain he wouldn't have taken the shot knowing that the lion was protected if he thought he could get away with it.  His track record here is pretty iffy.

But I doubt that he intentionally set out to hunt a protected lion.  Either way it's kind of hard to feel much sympathy for this guy.


----------



## floatingby

Back to the OP, I'm a bit confused by the petition.

It says: "*Please sign the petition to demand justice for Cecil!* Tell Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permits to kill endangered animals!"

How is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permit bringing justice to Cecil?

Wasn't Cecil killed without a valid permit to begin with?

It also says in the title "WE CAN END POACHING FOR GOOD."

And how is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing permit, which in this case it didn't, will help to stop poaching, which is, by definition, hunting illegally, so without a permit?

This make no sense to me at all, somebody explain?


----------



## limr

Okay. For the record, I agree with those that are saying that the reaction to this crime is out of proportion with the crime. Yes, there are bigger problems, and yes attention should be paid to those problems.

But...(and you knew there would be one...)

Sometimes the media explosion over an event is the result of "slacktivism" - the idea that sharing a story and talking all big and bad about it is the same as doing something about the problem. We haven't done anything significant but it makes us feel better, morally superior.

Sometimes, however, spreading the word IS activism and DOES help effect change in a bad situation. This guy hunted the wrong lion at the wrong place and time and in the wrong way, and so he has given us a symbol to cling to, to blame. We feel like maybe we really CAN do something about this situation by bringing attention to it. This can apply to most causes-du-jour that blow up the Internet on any given day. How many police departments, for example, might be taking a second, third, or fourth look at their community outreach programs or officer training policies as a way to avoid the problems that led to any one of the recent stories about Sandra Bland, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray...

And _this_ dentist killing _this_ lion also becomes symbolic of a wider problem - not just poaching and animal cruelty, but also the exploitation of poor, corrupt nations by rich Americans who don't care about the mess they leave behind. They just want their trophy. Even if the hunt had been legal, the killing of this one particular lion might actually have wide-ranging and long-term negative effects on the area. For what? And what about the repercussions? The locals get the harshest punishments while the rich American gets to pay his way out of it? Again?? It doesn't sit well at all. And perhaps, that's what is really underneath all the outrage, and it's not really _all_ about Cecil.

Now those bigger problems. What are we to do about them? Well, we do what we can, but they can be so overwhelming and the sheer size of the problem (and number of them) can make us feel powerless in a way that we don't when we can latch onto a specific, concrete goal (Get him extradited! Make him pay! Punish the people who did this! We know exactly who they are and we can do something about it!)  And even when we don't feel overwhelmed, and when we DO take concrete steps to help societal issues that we care about, it doesn't always get media attention. We don't see the general, ongoing activism - we only see it when it's focused on a singular event.


----------



## tirediron

EIngerson said:


> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *


Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!



EIngerson said:


> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.


He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.



EIngerson said:


> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.


I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...


----------



## Buckster

floatingby said:


> Back to the OP, I'm a bit confused by the petition.
> 
> It says: "*Please sign the petition to demand justice for Cecil!* Tell Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permits to kill endangered animals!"
> 
> How is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permit bringing justice to Cecil?
> 
> Wasn't Cecil killed without a valid permit to begin with?
> 
> It also says in the title "WE CAN END POACHING FOR GOOD."
> 
> And how is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing permit, which in this case it didn't, will help to stop poaching, which is, by definition, hunting illegally, so without a permit?
> 
> This make no sense to me at all, somebody explain?


My take on it is that the group's focus is the killing of endangered animals, Cecil just being the martyr for the cause.  Or, as I said earlier (for which I'm already due for a dope slap!) the *CAT*alyst.

Despite these particular circumstances, if the Zimbabwe government were to stop issuing permits to hunt endangered animals (assuming that it does that, at least for the point here), one can then assume that at least SOME endangered animals are being killed legally by that means, and the group would like to see that stop.

Obviously, that doesn't stop the problem entirely.  Poachers will continue to violate the law as always, but any reduction at all would be a victory for that group, and for the animals they are trying to protect.

I can see how the petition makes sense to the group promoting it.


----------



## table1349

tirediron said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *
> 
> 
> 
> Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...
Click to expand...

OH NO YOU DIDN'T just bring up Facebook and professional photographers again did you????  Here we go again.


----------



## EIngerson

tirediron said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *
> 
> 
> 
> Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...
Click to expand...




gryphonslair99 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *
> 
> 
> 
> Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OH NO YOU DIDN'T just bring up Facebook and professional photographers again did you????  Here we go again.
Click to expand...



Oh yes he did!!!  lol. Good one too. I've got nothing for that. Touche'


----------



## robbins.photo

limr said:


> But...(and you knew there would be one...)



The forum wouldn't be much fun without them..lol



> Sometimes the media explosion over an event is the result of "slacktivism" - the idea that sharing a story and talking all big and bad about it is the same as doing something about the problem. We haven't done anything significant but it makes us feel better, morally superior.



One of the few people I know who regularly sends me diving for a dictionary.  Lol 


> Sometimes, however, spreading the word IS activism and DOES help effect change in a bad situation. This guy hunted the wrong lion at the wrong place and time and in the wrong way, and so he has given us a symbol to cling to, to blame. We feel like maybe we really CAN do something about this situation by bringing attention to it. This can apply to most causes-du-jour that blow up the Internet on any given day. How many police departments, for example, might be taking a second, third, or fourth look at their community outreach programs or officer training policies as a way to avoid the problems that led to any one of the recent stories about Sandra Bland, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray...



Well if this gives anyone else pause and prevents even one incident of poaching then I'm ok with that.  I don't think extradition is a good idea, and it would be nice if the media coverage were more factual and less prone to gin up an emotional feeding frenzy, but such is life I suppose.



> And _this_ dentist killing _this_ lion also becomes symbolic of a wider problem - not just poaching and animal cruelty, but also the exploitation of poor, corrupt nations by rich Americans who don't care about the mess they leave behind.



Umm... ok, well I guess were in the agree to disagree column here.  Zimbabwe was a train wreck long before this guy came along and paid 60 grand for a big game hunt, and the problems there are much deeper than a few well to do American's participating in this sort of thing.   Don't get me wrong, I get where your coming from, but the conditions in Zimbabwe that make this sort of thing possible have very little to nothing to do with America. 



> Now those bigger problems. What are we to do about them? Well, we do what we can, but they can be so overwhelming and the sheer size of the problem (and number of them) can make us feel powerless in a way that we don't when we can latch onto a specific, concrete goal (Get him extradited! Make him pay! Punish the people who did this! We know exactly who they are and we can do something about it!)  And even when we don't feel overwhelmed, and when we DO take concrete steps to help societal issues that we care about, it doesn't always get media attention. We don't see the general, ongoing activism - we only see it when it's focused on a singular event.



Again I don't disagree, sadly though knowing what things are like over there I doubt any of this will change much of anything, focused activism or not.  The government of Zimbabwe is nothing more than a collection of thugs and gangsters of the highest order, and while they might be more than willing to put on a dog and pony show for PR purposes the truth is they could care less.


----------



## floatingby

Buckster said:


> floatingby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the OP, I'm a bit confused by the petition.
> 
> It says: "*Please sign the petition to demand justice for Cecil!* Tell Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permits to kill endangered animals!"
> 
> How is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permit bringing justice to Cecil?
> 
> Wasn't Cecil killed without a valid permit to begin with?
> 
> It also says in the title "WE CAN END POACHING FOR GOOD."
> 
> And how is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing permit, which in this case it didn't, will help to stop poaching, which is, by definition, hunting illegally, so without a permit?
> 
> This make no sense to me at all, somebody explain?
> 
> 
> 
> My take on it is that the group's focus is the killing of endangered animals, Cecil just being the martyr for the cause.  Or, as I said earlier (for which I'm already due for a dope slap!) the *CAT*alyst.
> 
> Despite these particular circumstances, if the Zimbabwe government were to stop issuing permits to hunt endangered animals (assuming that it does that, at least for the point here), one can then assume that at least SOME endangered animals are being killed legally by that means, and the group would like to see that stop.
> 
> Obviously, that doesn't stop the problem entirely.  Poachers will continue to violate the law as always, but any reduction at all would be a victory for that group, and for the animals they are trying to protect.
> 
> I can see how the petition makes sense to the group promoting it.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it does make sense to them, otherwise they would not have written it. All I can see is that they're trying to reel in this particular lion killing to promote their cause, but it's done in a so convoluted way that I don't know what their cause is, heck I'm not even sure what I'd be signing for; what I'm sure of is that the vast majority of those who signed didn't know either.


----------



## limr

robbins.photo said:


> And _this_ dentist killing _this_ lion also becomes symbolic of a wider problem - not just poaching and animal cruelty, but also the exploitation of poor, corrupt nations by rich Americans who don't care about the mess they leave behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Umm... ok, well I guess were in the agree to disagree column here.  Zimbabwe was a train wreck long before this guy came along and paid 60 grand for a big game hunt, and the problems there are much deeper than a few well to do American's participating in this sort of thing.   Don't get me wrong, I get where your coming from, but the conditions in Zimbabwe that make this sort of thing possible have very little to nothing to do with America.
Click to expand...


I didn't mean to suggest that corruption was _caused_ by rich Americans coming to hunt, only to say that the rich Westerners (it's mostly Americans but not exclusively) are more than happy to exploit the situation for their own gain. As for how it became the sh1tstorm of corruption that it is now? Well, yes, it's a complicated story. And though they are just part of the story, I don't think the European powers that colonized the area come out smelling all fresh and clean.



> Again I don't disagree, sadly though knowing what things are like over there I doubt any of this will change much of anything, focused activism or not.  The government of Zimbabwe is nothing more than a collection of thugs and gangsters of the highest order, and while they might be more than willing to put on a dog and pony show for PR purposes the truth is they could care less.



Yes, and faced with the prospect of "do something to help this specific situation" vs "do something to end corruption in Zimbabwe," what do you think most people will choose?  The same with "do something about this person who suffered" vs "end the sex slave trade," we are again going to latch onto something concrete and manageable, hoping that a small change can lead to bigger changes. The attention on these small changes might help inspire others to make their own small changes, which leads to more small changes, which eventually add up to bigger changes. The idea that we just accept that, for example, Zimbabwe is corrupt and we can't do anything about it is exactly the kind of exhaustion I'm talking about. The problem is so big and so out of my control, it's just not worth it to even try. Perhaps, though, these little things that don't seem like such a big deal to those who don't care about the lion (again, just using this as an example) really are those small little changes that need to be fought for to combat the larger problem.


----------



## table1349

EIngerson said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *
> 
> 
> 
> Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said to a point. In this case, I'm sure he understood the political issues. It's a fairly common occurrence for foreign hunters to go on guided hunts there. Enough to build a lucrative guide service. This company was not desperate and doing anything for money. *They advertised themselves as professionals. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which means nothing.  Just look at all the professional photographers on facebook!
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a far reach to say this man spent $50,000 for this service and didn't take the time to approach as you've described. I'm inclined to believe he did that research on many guide services and decided this one was the best. Yes, this is an assumption made on my part, but an assumption made with some logic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may well have done a great deal of research to determine which guide service was the best, but how much research did he do on the actual hunting?  I can see only two options:  (1)  He did all the research and was fully aware of what he was doing, in which case the vilification he is receiving is fully deserved; or (2) he didn't do any, relying solely on the guides, in which case he is equally guilty since ignorance of the law does not relieve one of the requirement to obey it.
> 
> 
> 
> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also assuming this guide service gave him some assurance that his expectations would be met and didn't follow through on it. I'm still placing my blame on the guide service here. I'd love to see the contract/agreement they had. Might answer a lot of questions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would very surprised if that weren't the case, and it's entirely possible (probable more likely) that the guides pushed him to do what he did, playing down any potential concerns, HOWEVER, as the person pulling the trigger, he is ultimately responsible.  It would be no different were you and I at a bar, and after several hours of hard drinking, and both being equally drunk, I convinced you to drive your car home.  I may bear some culpability, but ultimately, you got behind the wheel, you started the car, and you pulled out onto the public road...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OH NO YOU DIDN'T just bring up Facebook and professional photographers again did you????  Here we go again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes he did!!!  lol. Good one too. I've got nothing for that. Touche'
Click to expand...


Dear Dope Slap Academy,
It seems as if we are going to have a busy day tomorrow.  Aside from the scheduled Dope Slaps we have an emergency Mega Dope Slap coming your way.  Be prepared. 






P.S.  He's Canadian, use the Maple Dope Slap Paddle.​


----------



## Buckster

floatingby said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> floatingby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to the OP, I'm a bit confused by the petition.
> 
> It says: "*Please sign the petition to demand justice for Cecil!* Tell Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permits to kill endangered animals!"
> 
> How is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing hunting permit bringing justice to Cecil?
> 
> Wasn't Cecil killed without a valid permit to begin with?
> 
> It also says in the title "WE CAN END POACHING FOR GOOD."
> 
> And how is telling Zimbabwe to stop issuing permit, which in this case it didn't, will help to stop poaching, which is, by definition, hunting illegally, so without a permit?
> 
> This make no sense to me at all, somebody explain?
> 
> 
> 
> My take on it is that the group's focus is the killing of endangered animals, Cecil just being the martyr for the cause.  Or, as I said earlier (for which I'm already due for a dope slap!) the *CAT*alyst.
> 
> Despite these particular circumstances, if the Zimbabwe government were to stop issuing permits to hunt endangered animals (assuming that it does that, at least for the point here), one can then assume that at least SOME endangered animals are being killed legally by that means, and the group would like to see that stop.
> 
> Obviously, that doesn't stop the problem entirely.  Poachers will continue to violate the law as always, but any reduction at all would be a victory for that group, and for the animals they are trying to protect.
> 
> I can see how the petition makes sense to the group promoting it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure it does make sense to them, otherwise they would not have written it. All I can see is that their trying to reel in this particular lion killing to promote their cause, but it's done in a so convoluted way that I don't know what their cause is, heck I'm not even sure what I'd be signing for; what I'm sure of is that the vast majority of those who signed didn't know either.
Click to expand...

I can only tell you my own experience with reading it, and it seemed pretty simple to me.

It's not unusual or unprecedented for someone or, in this case, some_thing_ to become a martyr for a cause without intending it, especially by being killed.  We name streets after some of them.  Put up giant monuments to others.  Fail to recall most.

Not really very surprising or out of the ordinary from my pov, tbh.


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## robbins.photo

limr said:


> I didn't mean to suggest that corruption was _caused_ by rich Americans coming to hunt, only to say that the rich Westerners (it's mostly Americans but not exclusively) are more than happy to exploit the situation for their own gain. As for how it became the sh1tstorm of corruption that it is now? Well, yes, it's a complicated story. And though they are just part of the story, I don't think the European powers that colonized the area come out smelling all fresh and clean.



True enough, I guess it's a tough one for me because of first hand experience.  The worst part was the foreign aid workers , they'd show up so chock full of idealism thinking they were going to be the saviors of the poor, underprivileged locals.  They would all have that same look in their eyes.  Then a few months later you'd see them again and they'd be completely defeated, because they'd come to the realization that they were trying to hold back a tsunami of manure with a teaspoon.  

So yes, I'd love to think that all the outrage here would amount to something and maybe just maybe things might change even slightly for the better.  Sadly though having been there I'm afraid my cynicism simply runs too deep when it comes to Africa.


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## JacaRanda

Braineack said:


> I wanna see more outrage over this:
> 
> Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
> Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
> K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
> K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
> K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California
> 
> when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.


Start your facebook petition.


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## Derrel

SleepingWolf said:
			
		

> So sad that this thread has been is now about legal technicalities. Once the African mammals are extinct (rhinos and tigers will go first) will we allow trophy hunters to kill animals in the zoo while in their cages. Or do we then go after songbirds, domestic animals, and finally the hunger games? Trophy hunters have an innate and powerful desire to dominate. This accomplished through murder, skinning, and beheading - while posing standing up (like tea-bagging) over the inferior victim. Do you really think these people are different from child molesters? It's exactly the same profile, same behaviours, same desires. Except one is repressed because it is illegal, not to mention animals can't talk back.



You are *seriously overreaching*, and falling into *fanatical ravings*. Your lack of logic here is sad.. We get it, you do not like hunting, but your facile smear campaign wore thin about six pages back. This last attempt at broad-brush slander means it's time for you to take a break and get away from the keyboard...


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## Derrel

Sorry, but you're _slandering_ the reputation of an entire CLASS of people...that differs from libel which is deliberately impugning the reputation of a single person...maybe you're unfamiliar with American English usage of the word slander...your badmouthing is _slanderous_, because it is directed at entire types/classes/groups of people.

Yes..I studied journalism and am aware of  libel's definition, as well as slander's definition, but in common use, you are slandering entire CLASSES of people: as in, you claim hunters and pedophiles are "the same thing".

I see that you're game to talk sH*+ about other people, but the SECOND your intentions or state of mind are questioned, you run screaming to the moderators!

You_ can DISH_, but sure as heck _cannot take_!!


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## limr

a) Wolf is right about the terms - slander is spoken, libel is written.

b) Can you both please take your penises off the table?

c) Please take that picture down. It's against the rules unless you took it, and it's gratuitous. 

d) Insults and extremist positions don't help anyone.


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## Derrel

Your use of the penis reference is ridiculous. Can you kindly remove your vagina from the table, Leonore?

Step off.


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## pixmedic

steady on there folks...
I removed the photo, as it was unnecessarily over the top. 
If there are any penises or vaginas left on the table, I would kindly ask that you put them away, or at least bring them to the subscribers section if any are so inclined to continue waving them about.


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## pixmedic

SleepingWolf said:


> sad to see the old timers on this forum are gone and have been replaced by an aggressive group-thinking mob.
> feel free to delete my account.



so, look...
i dont mean to split hairs or anything....
but judging from the amount of signatures on the petition you linked, and the hateful and violent comments many of those people have left, I would venture to say that the petitioning group itself is an aggressive group-thinking mob.
And before  you tell me its not a mob mentality at work there, I would point out that there are thousands of those people quite literally calling for blood... before a proper investigation has even been done, and real facts ascertained.


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## Derrel

SleepingWolf said:
			
		

> sad to see the old timers on this forum are gone and have been replaced by an *aggressive group-thinking mob*.
> feel free to delete my account.



This site typically does not delete accounts. Posters are however, free to stop posting, and by doing so, their posts and actions will slowly disappear from easy view.


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## robbins.photo

Wow... take the afternoon off to go shoot some pictures, come back and there is genitalia everywhere.


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## EIngerson

Well this thread turned south quick.


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## Braineack

JacaRanda said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wanna see more outrage over this:
> 
> Muldrow Police K9 Dies Of Heat Stroke In Vehicle Fort Smith Fayetteville News 5newsonline KFSM 5NEWS
> Four Police Dogs Have Died Recently After Being Forgotten in Their Cars People.com
> K9 Hector Hialeah Police Department Florida
> K9 Jimmy Hialeah Police Department Florida
> K9 Nitro Stockton Police Department California
> 
> when police aren't too busy shooting dogs in people fenced backyards, or chained up, they leave their own inside hot cars to suffer horrible deaths--all without any criminal charges.
> 
> 
> 
> Start yout facebook petition.
Click to expand...

Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.

using tapatalk.


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## Buckster

Braineack said:


> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.


Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?


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## robbins.photo

Buckster said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?
Click to expand...


Will I get slapped if I recommend a petition followed by a social media campaign?


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## limr

robbins.photo said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Will I get slapped if I recommend a petition followed by a social media campaign?
Click to expand...


I guess, if that's what you're into


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## JacaRanda

robbins.photo said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Will I get slapped if I recommend a petition followed by a social media campaign?
Click to expand...


Spanked not slapped.  Big difference.


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## table1349

JacaRanda said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Will I get slapped if I recommend a petition followed by a social media campaign?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Spanked not slapped.  Big difference.
Click to expand...

Mistress Terri always did like you best.


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## Derrel

EIngerson said:
			
		

> Well this thread turned south quick.



There's nothing like a thread that begins with the OP leading off with unauthorized use of some other photographer's work...on a hot-button topic which is about a mob of internet slacktivists who happen to be calling for vigilante justice...

I'm wondering where all the faux outrage is over Africa's HUGE problem with "bushmeat"...as in chimpanzees and other primates being shot, skinned, butchered, and then SOLD to regular Africans as "bushmeat". Nothing quite like people eating smoked chimpanzee meat for dinner...


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## EIngerson

SleepingWolf said:


> is there a bulk way to delete all my posts?




Nope, take your time.


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## table1349

Gee lets try these for a start.....................


Billy evans, NY
Aug 02, 19:51
# 1,022,267
This jerkoff dentist from Minnesota needs a beat down then he should get shot in the head with an arrow .. dont let this dumb ass get away with this horrible thing he has done .. hope you die mr dentist from Minnesota you fag animal abusing piece of ****

Dawn Engelhardt, IL
Aug 02, 19:39
# 1,022,110
Can we please lure Walter Palmer out of his hidden sanctuary (what a coward) with some raw meat, then shoot him with a bow and arrow? Let him bleed for 40 hours and then shoot him with a gun. There was absolutely no skill or respect involved in this disgusting "sport" of killing Cecil. Wow what an incredible douchebag coward he is.

William Bowling, VA
Aug 02, 19:25
# 1,021,960
Disgusting. Disturbing. I really would like to see someone else's head mounted as a trophy, but that will never happen.

Malcolm McLean, United Kingdom
Aug 02, 19:14
# 1,021,811
These sick f**ks should be chopped up and fed to the lions. No-one will miss *them*.


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## AlanKlein

EIngerson said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My only question if he was going to take the shot at night how was he going to determine whether it did or didn't have a collar?
> 
> Everything I've read implies he knew he shouldn't of shot a collared lion. So how was he going to determine that it was or wasn't then. Surely that's his responsibility, he knew it had been baited out, so guessing not identified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great question. It's my understanding that the guides were trying to hide the collar from him once they realized it was there.
Click to expand...

I looked at dozen pictures of Cecil.  I didn't see a collar on any of them.  Well, why would I?  It's underneath the lion's mane.  When the lion was killed, the guide found the collar and then panicked.  Not the right thing to do.  But the point is, they apparently didn't realize it was a monitored and not a wild lion.  People are so caught up in their anger, they can't see straight.  

Second, baiting and luring is standard practice on hunts.

Third. Private guide companies are standard and they hunt in many African countries including Zambia, Mozambique, Tanzania, South Africa, and others beside Zimbabwe.  I Googled a couple and they even explain how they do the luring which is standard practice.   A hunter who hires what appears to be a legitimate guide would expect his guide and the company he represents to assure all the government fees are paid and that the whole hunt be done legally.  

Trophy Hunting Safaris in Africa - African Trophy Hunting
Lion Hunting in Africa - Africa s best Lion Hunting Safaris

Here's one that also breaks out the costs.   The only complaint I have is that now I know why  dentist's fees are so high.

Tanzania African Lion Hunts Outfitters Guides Hunting African Lion in Tanzania
*Prices & Packages
16 day LION safari on a 21 day license* *1×1 basis*
Daily Rate @ US$ 1,600 per day 25,600
Government Hunting License 1,250
Government Conservation Fee U$ 150/day x 21 3,150
Pack/Dip/Crate Fee 1,800
Government Trophy Export Tax 500
Gun Import incl Government. Tax per Gun 250
Concession Fee U$ 120/Day 1,920
Community development U$ 120/day 1,920
*TOTAL* *36,390
Additional Costs:*
Estimated charter flight cost, round trip 3,450
1 x Lion, with the 20% community levy 7,800
1st Buffalo with the 20% community levy 2,280


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## AlanKlein

What's interesting is how much money goes to the government and particularly to the local communities.  The local people there like hunters.  It provides money to them not only in the aforementioned fees.  But in manpower and supplies that support the hunts.  Why do you want to take away their livelihood?  If they're hunting responsibly, shouldn't they decide how to control the wildlife.  We do in the States.     Here we go again pushing our weight around and butting into other country's business

Community development U$ 120/day 1,920
1 x Lion, with the 20% community levy 7,800


Another interesting fee:  Government Conservation Fee U$ 150/day x 21   $3,150  So the government uses these hunts to pay for conservation in their country and protecting the wildlife from real wanton poaching like the 300 elephants poisoned for their tusks that I mentioned earlier.
This is not unlike hunting and fishing fees here in America that pay for State Department of Conservation costs related to upkeep of hunting areas and herds and raising and stocking of fish.


----------



## Braineack

Buckster said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah  I'll just make crazy statements about police and when I disagree with you I'll ignore you, cry, nd then ask to have my account deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything we can do to hurry that along?
Click to expand...


Woman facing charges after police shoot kill dog www.ajc.com

I dont have to make crazy statements about police, because their own actions do the talking for them.


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## Braineack

Law enforcement will receive training on dog encounters



> This was one of about 280 dog shootings that happened that year in Texas. *In the past five years, more than 1,000 dogs have been shot by Texas law enforcement*, according to data from the Texas Humane Legislation Network. Not all police departments keep track of canine shootings so an exact number cannot be easily determined.


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## pixmedic

I think this thread has run its course yes?


----------

