# How to handle clients....a few questions



## eilla05 (Aug 11, 2012)

How do you handle clients who do the following:

Call/text you at all hours of the night literally one texted me a 1:45am! Another 10:45pm and another 11:20 pm. 

Send you emails/Fb messages once you have given them their images ( I currently give on CD) asking why they don't have X pose and X pose. I always tell clients they may not see all poses they remember doing for a variety of reasons before we begin our session. So the information was put out there yet I have had a few clients who ask me still and then act upset when I tell why. 

Clients who call/email you the day after and every day until you are done asking if their images are ready. 

Clients who send you repeated messages asking you to post pictures on Facebook from their session. 

Clients who send you a message 2 weeks after you have given them their images asking for your unedited photos from the session. 

Please tell me I am not alone in this? I have had all of the above numerous times and I am tired of repeating myself. Is there anything I can do to help limit the number of times this happens?? 

Thanks in advance.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 11, 2012)

Sounds like you are priced for bottom of the barrel clients.

If you are a business, you should have a business phone, and then the calls and texts won't be a problem.


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## MLeeK (Aug 11, 2012)

The texts and calls at all hours? No clue. Never had that happen. Got one bride I turned down who started sending massive amounts of texts to my phone. I'd get 4 or 4 a minute for about an hour. Couldn't receive anything else, couldn't call out, couldn't get a call thru until I blocked her number. But the calls and texts beyond business hours? WOW. I don't know what to tell you there besides turn off your ringer. Keep your business and personal phones on separate numbers.

The rest? Two words: Manage Expectations
If you are managing every aspect of what the client should expect from you there shouldn't be a problem with any of that. My practice is to promise them less than they will receive. They think the extras are free things I threw in when in reality they are not. 
They get all kinds of information on what to expect, FAQ, etc. In there I have a blurb about posing and the extra shots that they don't see. I have a blurb in there about editing-or not editing, facebook images... EVERYTHING. I tell them for portraits the turn around time is 3 weeks when in reality it's 1. For their orders to come in it's another 2 weeks-when it's usually just days to a week max. 
Basically you take what your standards are and make the client expect later, less, etc... then over deliver. It will get rid of a lot of that. 
As for the phone calls? I have to think you are dealing with some incredibly young people with no manners? Maybe you need a better clientele? LOL!


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## eilla05 (Aug 11, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Sounds like you are priced for bottom of the barrel clients.
> 
> If you are a business, you should have a business phone, and then the calls and texts won't be a problem.



Wow. Quite honestly I am not sure what to say to that first statement other than I am priced according to my current skill level and market. 

I have a business phone however I use my cell phone to give to clients on the day of their session in case they are running late etc. I am not a "huge" business therefore I can't afford the expense of a business only cell phone.


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## eilla05 (Aug 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> The texts and calls at all hours? No clue. Never had that happen. Got one bride I turned down who started sending massive amounts of texts to my phone. I'd get 4 or 4 a minute for about an hour. Couldn't receive anything else, couldn't call out, couldn't get a call thru until I blocked her number. But the calls and texts beyond business hours? WOW. I don't know what to tell you there besides turn off your ringer. Keep your business and personal phones on separate numbers.
> 
> The rest? Two words: Manage Expectations
> If you are managing every aspect of what the client should expect from you there shouldn't be a problem with any of that. My practice is to promise them less than they will receive. They think the extras are free things I threw in when in reality they are not.
> ...



Lol I wouldn't disagree you with on that last bit... I need better clients and the people who are doing it are young! Seniors to be exact. Thank you for the advice I appreciate it! I do give them information but guessing it just goes over these peoples head instead of sinking in.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 11, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you are priced for bottom of the barrel clients.
> ...



Then you are not priced to be a successful business, that covers costs of doing business, such as seperate business phones.

You say you are not a "huge" business. I am not sure what you are trying to say other than you are not making enough money to be a proper business. Do you have a Million Dollar Liabilty insurance plan? Have you made a business plan?


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## eilla05 (Aug 11, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



I have a business plan however I just started charging a month ago, literally. Therefore when I say "huge" that is what I mean. I just started and until I build a  reputation and get more in my portfolio my cost is what it is. I have a separate business phone but not a cell phone for business. As soon as my business takes off I plan to add a business only cell. 

I am not sure what your implication of not being a proper business is. You don't just start out overnight and charge $500 to clients unless you have previously been working or have a large portfolio. I am assuming based on your comments you charge way more than I do. While that might be fine for you and your business market where I am located it wouldn't fly. Even the best photographers in this town do not charge anywhere near what you are implying. I know my market and what my current portfolio and skill level are. As I build on both of those I will adjust my pricing to reflect both.

I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my thread but I feel a little belittled by them. This board is for all levels of photographers who are charging for their work be it $5 or $5000 and for help in doing so at least that is what I thought it was for. If this is the wrong board to ask the question I posed feel free to point me in the right direction.


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## eric1971 (Aug 11, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you are priced for bottom of the barrel clients.
> ...



You need to look into Google voice.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 11, 2012)

I call it Lemonade Stand Photography.


Sorry, I am "Olde School", where you learned your craft, went to work for others to continue learning under the guidance of others, and then when you think you are ready, you jump ship and open your own business being able to offer good quality at the going market rates. As opposed to beginner rates, advanced beginner rates, intermediate rates...

Lemonade Stand Photography, isn't really a business, but a paid hobby, that doesn't really make money, just like a child selling lemonade for 25¢, even though the parents are losing 50¢ a glass.

Spending years working for others in your field, gives you a vast education in business that you will never get in school. It gives you experience seeing how an existing successful business handles the problems you are bringing up here.

Sorry if you feel belittled. It is my opinion that a real business is not one that is learning the very product they are selling.


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## paigew (Aug 11, 2012)

Both my husband and I run our own businesses. We often get texts late at night (I got one last night at 12:30 am!) honestly, I think some people are just up and doing things late at night. They figure its a text and you will read it when you wake up in the morning. It isn't like they expect you to respond that late. I turn our phones on silent at 8:00 because I don't want my kids woken up by our phones so it doesn't bother me. 

Although I have only done free shoots I specifically tell my 'clients' that I am taking the files home to process and they can expect them in about a week. I have never had anyone bug me about them. Same goes with my other business...I always give people an estimated completion time ( I usually over estimate). 

I have never had anyone ask for unedited files. Or for certain poses we attempted that didn't work out. I would tell a client that I do not give out unedited files. Also I would tell them I only share photos that meet certain standards so if an image is below these standards it will not be shown. All sub-par images (oof, blinking, weird faces, etc) are deleted immediately. 

If you have a contract you can write all of this in that so people know what they should expect from you. I think communication and telling your clients exactly what to expect is key to success for any business.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 11, 2012)

First mistake, giving a client your cell phone number, all you are doing is setting yourself up for the text and calls.  You make an appointment for the shoot, if they are running late you wait until they get there, most people do show up on time for photo shoots.  You have to set business hours, you have to tell your clients that they will receive the finished images within a certain number of days, and deliver on time.  If they want a few for facebook, you tell them they can have a few.  I work with my clients on the phone or e-mail, no text, no cell phone.

If you are going to run a professional business, treat it like a  professional business, not an extention of facebook friends.  You say that you are have only just started charging a  month ago, so based on your skill level you'll shoot for whatever you can get. How long have you been shooting for and what kind of background do you have?


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## MLeeK (Aug 11, 2012)

Please read this blog from the beginning to current. It's going to take you some time, but do it. It's well worth it. THIS post is probably the launch point for why I think you need to read his blog. Then the follow ups to it. Then everything after it about business. 

I get tired of the answer "I am cheap because no one can afford me if I weren't..." YOU can't afford you when you think that way. Quit thinking with YOUR wallet and your friends wallets. They are NOT your clients, they are not luxury item clients. Value yourself and your work. Quit running a lemonade stand.


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## KmH (Aug 11, 2012)

Ouuuuuuu !!!

I like this one - Photography is a luxury... - ...a Man to Fish...

Site bookmarked so I can pass it around too.


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## cloud9imagery (Aug 12, 2012)

While I don't agree with the lemonade stand photography comment, I do appreciate the link for a great blog.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Please read this blog from the beginning to current.




Damn... he's smart... _AND _hot!


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## TheKenTurner (Aug 12, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Lemonade Stand Photography, isn't really a business, but a paid hobby, that doesn't really make money, just like a child selling lemonade for 25¢, even though the parents are losing 50¢ a glass.



My dad is an accountant! That's why my lemonade stand, although not losing money per glass, didn't get very many sales... 

-Ken Turner


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## bunny99123 (Aug 12, 2012)

Well, never had anyone call me pass 9 pm about a shoot.  I always ask my client if they are happy with the shoot, and can add a couple more poses if they want too.  That covers why I did not get a certain pose.  I also use a contract with a list of poses and add poses that we photographed.  Turn your cell off at night if you have a land line.  

Where I live the market is over saturated with Photographers.  Although it is a large city, there are not a lot of photography studios, so it is hard to find work as a second shooter.  

I agree a honest person knows their ability and charge accordingly, and increase fees as their ability improve and have more accesssories.  All clients I talk to want a cd.  I am a working class photographer and happy with that.  Never plan to have a photography studio.  I enjoy people and taking photos.  

I just tell people to not call me past 9PM, and I use my cell phone to inform clients I am at the site, and make sure they are coming.  

Keep shooting, and be more aggressive about the phone calls or just turn it off at night.


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## amolitor (Aug 12, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Sounds like you are priced for bottom of the barrel clients.
> 
> If you are a business, you should have a business phone, and then the calls and texts won't be a problem.



I see that you provided more useful information in your followups, but this seems to have been a completely unnecessary bit of nastiness. There is nothing helpful in it, just a sort of smug unpleasantness.

You're a better man than this.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 12, 2012)

Thanks for posting that blog, some very interesting reading.  Some people are much better at putting down in words what other people are thinking.


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > eilla05 said:
> ...



My mother once opened a retail dance, excercise and activewear clothing store.

The day she opened she had already spent a significant amount of time computing costs for her labor, her electricity, her rent, her inventory and related shipping and storage and even her gas back and forth to work.  She factored all of that into how much she needed to charge for her clothes in order ot make a profit, set the profit level she was comfortable with, and priced her inventory appropriately.  On day one she opened up with the markup that she continued to charge until the day she sold off her small CHAIN of clothing stores and quit the business.

If she had worked in the manner that you (and many) photographers work, she would have been selling her clothing at a loss on day one.  She would have had a LOT of customers, but they would have been people who would normally have been shopping at walmart shopping at her boutique to get high-end brands for cheap, and those customers would have been a pain in the ass... and she would have been out of business within 2-3 months because she couldn't have afforded the rent.

The point is that any business you are going to run needs to be profitable on day one or it's basically not a business.  It's a hobby where someone is covering part of your costs.  And when you are conducting yourself as a hobbyist, people will treat you as a hobbyist.  That is to say, as if you don't really know what you're doing and don't  have any real business practices to speak of.

You may well now say that you _don't_  know what you're doing, and that's all well and good... then you are probably not _really_ ready to do this.  I'm not suggesting you have to have all the experience that you would attain from doing this professionally for years to open up your own shop, but _some_ experience helps.  Go work with/for some other pros as a secondary for a while.  Ask questions.  Listen and take advice seriously.  Learn something... learn _more_ than you do now, and then go for it.  Absolutely go for it.

(I think) this is what bitter is saying to you.  He's not kicking you to the curb ... he's telling you what your problem is.  You are responding defensively to that, and I can totally understand that, but his advice is sound.  You said "I'm having this problem", and bitter is saying why, and he's spot-on.  It's also a broader answer than you were probably hoping for, but it's the root answer- the core- the real stuff that is not only affecting you here, but will affect you for every client.

And there ARE some pros on here... some are part time, some are full time, some were full time once and are now part time.  I can tell you that all the people who say stuff like this are the ones that have done it professionally, and every single one of them started out with little or no experience... so not only are they telling you what they know as a pro, they are telling you what they know as somoene who once was not.

Take the advice seriously.


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## MLeeK (Aug 12, 2012)

Manaheim has THE point in his post. 
You wouldn't expect to walk into a new store in the mall and buy their goods at a loss to them because they are new on the market. 
Todd and Jamie talk about that at some point in the blog too. Price yourself according to your product and value your skills. If you don't have the skills to be of value yet you need to stop charging and go back to skill building until you have it. 
Raising your prices down the line will cost you ever client you have now-as it should, however that's where you are going to take the hard hit. At that point you are already known as the cheap photographer. 
If today WalMart studios raised their sitting fees to where they should be? They'd be out of the business immediately. We'd all say "WTF? They're WALMART for God's sake!" Do you want to be WalMart or do you want to be something else? 
Somewhere in there Todd says essentially set a value on yourself, commit to it and do NOT apologize for it.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 12, 2012)

I had a million dollars in liability insurance before I ever took my first paying job.I've been opening for  2 months.  Things like this are things you should plan for and put into effect if you want to open a business. It's not belittling for someone to ask you things you should have allready in place.


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## MLeeK (Aug 12, 2012)

KmH said:


> Ouuuuuuu !!!
> 
> I like this one - Photography is a luxury... - ...a Man to Fish...
> 
> Site bookmarked so I can pass it around too.



I think the guy is bloody brilliant and his wife is as amazing as he is. That is my favorite blog for business and I'd REALLY like to do one of his workshops should I find one that I am not at the opposite end of the country for.


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## Todd_Reichman (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi everyone, saw a bunch of links from the ...a Man to Fish... Analytics to this thread.  Thanks for adding me to the discussion.  I'm glad something on the blog has resonated for some of you.



MLeeK said:


> Please read this blog from the beginning to current. It's going to take you some time, but do it. It's well worth it. THIS post is probably the launch point for why I think you need to read his blog. Then the follow ups to it. Then everything after it about business.



Uh...Thanks!



ChristopherCoy said:


> Damn... he's smart... _AND _hot!



Uh...Thanks?

To address the OP - as a business owner you really do get to define how you are treated by your clients.  You do this by dictating exactly what is going to happen and then executing on that.  When you are first starting out you aren't going to get all this right, so it is important to look at every interaction and friction points you experience with clients and figure out what you did to cause it and what you could do to avoid that issue in the future.  While we can sometimes get frustrated with clients we always have to take responsibility for everything that happens and assume we have the ability to adjust behavior going forward.  The client isn't the enemy.

Thanks everyone.  Feel free to follow on Facebook and bookmark the blog.  I do take questions and respond in posts and I'm happy to talk shop here as well.

- todd

Todd Reichman
Reichman Photography
www.reichmanphoto.com
...a Man to Fish...
www.amantofish.com


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

I love the fact that you popped in Todd. So many "pros" today are only interested in preying on the pocketbooks of fledgling photographers. Its nice to see someone who volunteers valuable information in a genuine effort to help.


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## amolitor (Aug 12, 2012)

It's simply FASCINATING the assumptions, unfounded as far as I can see, that people are making about the OP's business. Did he or she post details about expenses and margins and so on elsewhere, because I ain't seeing it here.

Photography is quite a different business than selling clothes, so manaheim's story is only tangentially related. You're selling your labor, and that's about it. You have a bunch of fixed expenses, sure, and a bunch of sunk costs, but the actual COGs boils down to whatever your time is worth plus some gas money. Whether or not you are "losing money" on day one depends almost entirely on how you are doing your accounting.

Restaurants, to pull out another example of a business, routinely lose money hand over fist for a while. There's as much reason to compare restaurants to photography as there is to compare clothing stores, and I think the comparison is in fact rather more apt.

manaheim's sentence: "The point is that any business you are going to run needs to be profitable on day one or it's basically not a business." has never actually applied to any business anywhere. Profitability isn't even a meaningful thing on day one, and if it was, virtually no business would be profitable on day one. There's too much cost up front and not enough revenue in the first 24 hours. So, what manaheim PROBABLY means (forgive me for putting words in your mouth) is that the business needs to have a viable model on day one to be a real business, which is a statement that means something at least.

It is, interestingly, also untrue. Frequently businesses will tinker with the model as they go along until they settle on one that works.

More importantly, we haven't a shred of reason to imagine that the OP doesn't have a perfectly viable complete business plan.

What we have is someone who said 'I gave my cell phone number to a client and she is calling me incessantly now, anyone got any ideas?' and everyone jumped in and said 'YOUR BUSINESS MODEL IS **** YOU SHOULD DIE' which is, not to put too fine of a point on it:

a) typical of the semi-literate ill-considered mean-spirited garbage we see on TPF from altogether too many of the frequent posters
b) completely wrong-headed

EDIT: What's REALLY interesting to me here is that some of this nonsense came from posters I do not think of as belonging to the 'semi-literal ill-considered mean-spirited' crowd at all. manaheim and Bitter Jeweler are usually among the helpful and pleasant posters here, just to pull two names at random that surprised me here.


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I call it Lemonade Stand Photography.
> 
> 
> Sorry, I am "Olde School", where you learned your craft, went to work for others to continue learning under the guidance of others, and then when you think you are ready, you jump ship and open your own business being able to offer good quality at the going market rates. As opposed to beginner rates, advanced beginner rates, intermediate rates...
> ...



I get that your old school and can appreciate that, however not everyone feels the way you do about photography. It is very competitive and most photographers don't want to take anyone under their wing to teach them anything. So finding someone whom you can work with for years to learn is not very feasible for the majority and if you know an easy way to do so I am all ears because I have called as many photographers as there are in this town to ask. 

I appreciate your comments but what I don't appreciate is the tone and suggestion that just because I or anyone else on this board are not charging what you charge or haven't been doing it for how long you have it means we are not real photographers. That is BS. Again my market doesn't allow for charging $500 a session. I know the market where I am located. You do not. I am charging according to that and offering up a service to ALL people in my market not just the ones who can afford a $500 photographer. Not everyone can afford that and I personally don't feel like they shouldn't have a photographer because they can only afford $250 instead of $500. 

 I am actually making profit from what I am charging just apparently not to your standard of profit. Currently I am choosing to save said profit so that I can buy better equipment than to put that towards a business only cell. 

Oh and by the way..photography is a learning business. Every session teaches us something and if you are not learning I suggest you ask yourself what it is you a missing out on.


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> First mistake, giving a client your cell phone number, all you are doing is setting yourself up for the text and calls.  You make an appointment for the shoot, if they are running late you wait until they get there, most people do show up on time for photo shoots.  You have to set business hours, you have to tell your clients that they will receive the finished images within a certain number of days, and deliver on time.  If they want a few for facebook, you tell them they can have a few.  I work with my clients on the phone or e-mail, no text, no cell phone.
> 
> If you are going to run a professional business, treat it like a  professional business, not an extention of facebook friends.  You say that you are have only just started charging a  month ago, so based on your skill level you'll shoot for whatever you can get. How long have you been shooting for and what kind of background do you have?



I have been shooting for about 3 years. Background as in what specifically like do I have a degree in photography? Nope and don't know anyone who does. I have taken some courses and learned by self teaching. Oh and I don't shoot for what I can get I have a set charge for everyone


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2012)

amolitor said:
			
		

> It's simply FASCINATING the assumptions, unfounded as far as I can see, that people are making about the OP's business. Did he or she post details about expenses and margins and so on elsewhere, because I ain't seeing it here.
> 
> Photography is quite a different business than selling clothes, so manaheim's story is only tangentially related. You're selling your labor, and that's about it. You have a bunch of fixed expenses, sure, and a bunch of sunk costs, but the actual COGs boils down to whatever your time is worth plus some gas money. Whether or not you are "losing money" on day one depends almost entirely on how you are doing your accounting.
> 
> ...



You are correct - I really meant more along the lines of viable than profitable.   Plenty of business's aren't profitable right away.

The OP said some things that are telltale signs of someone who is undervaluing their services, including implying that $500 was a ton of money and that they were not good enough to charge that.  We have been around here for a while and I can tell you that's a leading forecaster.  It is an assumption on our part, I'll give you... But I'd bet good money it is spot on.

And while you may not be agush over my particular anecdote, it is perfectly appropriate. Businesses are about expenses and profits, (including opportunity costs) - plain and simple.  Every business has different concerns but if you spend more than you make, you fail.  If you could have made more money doing something else, you have to at least question your choices.

Oh and thanks for calling me semi-literal illiterate and mean spirited.  You know, you've been in the middle of just about every Nast derailed thread I've seen here in the past 6 weeks or so.  Not JUST you, but you do always seem to be there. I wonder if there is a connection......


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> I am charging according to that and offering up a service *to ALL people* in my market not just the ones who can afford a $500 photographer.....





I don't know why you're bitching at him.... you just stated the same thing he did, only with less explanation. If you cater to all, then you'll have the problems of all. Late night texting and everything...


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Please read this blog from the beginning to current. It's going to take you some time, but do it. It's well worth it. THIS post is probably the launch point for why I think you need to read his blog. Then the follow ups to it. Then everything after it about business.
> 
> I get tired of the answer "I am cheap because no one can afford me if I weren't..." YOU can't afford you when you think that way. Quit thinking with YOUR wallet and your friends wallets. They are NOT your clients, they are not luxury item clients. Value yourself and your work. Quit running a lemonade stand.



Wow very interesting blog. Still reading but already I am like wow..yes..oh wow.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> Oh and by the way..photography is a learning business. Every session teaches us something and if you are not learning I suggest you ask yourself what it is you a missing out on.




This is what every beginner tells themselves to make them feel better when they are called out for being a beginner. I know... I used to get pissed as well.


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2012)

I still get pissed for being such a beginner and I've been at this 9 years. Lol


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

manaheim said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



Great post. I am taking it seriously I really am. Here is what is holding me back. Being afraid I won't have business even though I think I am good enough for it. Does that make sense? Being where I am market wise charging much more than I do would most likely mean little business. It is a poor city literally i am not just saying this. Even seasoned pro's who have been in this town for years charge $65.00 sitting fees...Honestly I do appreciate Bitters comments and honestly but the manner in which he tells its make me want to kick him in the teeth...lol not that I don't agree with some of what he says but the way he says it sucks and is a put off for people on this board.

As I said to Bitter..I have called pros around my area..no one wants to take on second even for free. To them its competition and they don't want to teach the competition.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> ...not that I don't agree with some of what he says but the way he says it sucks and is a put off for people on this board.






He tells the truth, and most people can't handle the truth these days. They want to be ego stroked and have information sugar coated and delivered to them on a plate of cotton candy. THAT'S what BS.


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

manaheim said:


> amolitor said:
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> 
> ...



$500 IS a TON of money to 90% of the people located in my market and the other 10% already have 2 photographers in town to go to that have been here for years. I would love to live in a town where I could charge that or more but I don't.


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## eilla05 (Aug 12, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and by the way..photography is a learning business. Every session teaches us something and if you are not learning I suggest you ask yourself what it is you a missing out on.
> ...



lol ! I learn something every session...I didn't say I learn something about my camera every session I said I learned every session...difference..I am not pissed actually


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2012)

eilla05 said:
			
		

> Great post. I am taking it seriously I really am. Here is what is holding me back. Being afraid I won't have business even though I think I am good enough for it. Does that make sense? Being where I am market wise charging much more than I do would most likely mean little business. It is a poor city literally i am not just saying this. Even seasoned pro's who have been in this town for years charge $65.00 sitting fees...Honestly I do appreciate Bitters comments and honestly but the manner in which he tells its make me want to kick him in the teeth...lol not that I don't agree with some of what he says but the way he says it sucks and is a put off for people on this board.
> 
> As I said to Bitter..I have called pros around my area..no one wants to take on second even for free. To them its competition and they don't want to teach the competition.



Look at bitters post count and the number of likes... Now look at his join date.  Now look at mine.  

The more people try to help here the grumpier they become.  We're like a bunch of old men yelling at the kids speeding through the neighborhood. (I'm sure I'll be told that's a bad analogy...)

Don't take it too seriously.  Read the content, ignore the mild snark.

As far as your problem, I obviously can't know your market but I hear what you're saying.  It's tough because if you increase the prices too much for the low end customers but not enough for the good customers you'll get no business.  I know a guy who had a hell of a time until he got fed up, went back to IT, and tripled his fees just to tell people not to bother him unless they felt like making it well worth his while.  Next thing he knew he had too much business.

There are no easy answers- I wish there were.  In the meantime you might consider putting in a catch-all hourly rate for services above and beyond the contract and use that to dissuade people from bugging you.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 12, 2012)

manaheim said:


> We're like a bunch of old men yelling at the kids speeding through the neighborhood. (I'm sure I'll be told that's a bad analogy...)




Bitter.......HE JUST CALLED YOU OLD!


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## amolitor (Aug 13, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Oh and thanks for calling me semi-literal illiterate and mean spirited.  You know, you've been in the middle of just about every Nast derailed thread I've seen here in the past 6 weeks or so.  Not JUST you, but you do always seem to be there. I wonder if there is a connection......



You in particular were only ill-considered. The mean spirited and semi literate were other people.

I get the frustration with trying over and over to help, and as I suggested, you in particular seem to be quite pleasant most of the time. I suggest to those who cannot contain their bile and persist in yelling when asked for help that they stop trying to help. Yelling about lame businesses and fauxtography tells us more about the yeller than the yellee. And it certainly doesn't help.

Perhaps I am always in the middle because I am mighty warrior for truth and justice!


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## manaheim (Aug 13, 2012)

amolitor said:
			
		

> You in particular were only ill-considered. The mean spirited and semi literate were other people.
> 
> I get the frustration with trying over and over to help, and as I suggested, you in particular seem to be quite pleasant most of the time. I suggest to those who cannot contain their bile and persist in yelling when asked for help that they stop trying to help. Yelling about lame businesses and fauxtography tells us more about the yeller than the yellee. And it certainly doesn't help.
> 
> Perhaps I am always in the middle because I am mighty warrior for truth and justice!



Yes.  I'm sure that's it.

You know I remember very few people on TPF, but those I do remember fall into two categories. Truly helpful, exceptional contributors... And jerks.  I made note of you very early on.  I have little doubt you'll be quite certain of which category YOU fall into, oh mighty warrior.

I'm done here.


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## amolitor (Aug 13, 2012)

Did anyone actually get around to answering the original question? I missed it, if so.

I've literally never done customer  service work, but it seems to me that a polite but definite "this is not appropriate, you need to contact me only during business hours" is definitely called for quite early.

If a customer has a dispute over the results, which you cannot resolve yourself, you might consider using arbitration. I understand that it's substantially cheaper and less confrontational than the court system. You might consider shopping around for an arbitrator, if you're in the USA, and when things get really ugly put it out there as an option. A professional arbitrator should be in a better position than I to fill in the details.


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## Tee (Aug 13, 2012)

To the OP: until you get a busniess phone, tell the customer you have business hours in which they can call.      



amolitor said:


> Perhaps I am always in the middle because I am mighty warrior for truth and justice!



No...you're TPF's very own internet White Knight.  Congratulations, btw, it's been a while since someone came galloping in on their horse to rescue the victim.  In the 2 1/2 years I've been on here, there have been hundreds upon hundreds of threads like this.  It always ends the same way.


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## Steve5D (Aug 13, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my thread but I feel a little belittled by them. This board is for all levels of photographers who are charging for their work be it $5 or $5000 and for help in doing so at least that is what I thought it was for. If this is the wrong board to ask the question I posed feel free to point me in the right direction.



You're going to find a number of similar people here. They'll belittle you, will present their ideas as the only viable ones, and will recoil at the very thought of doing anything remotely helpful like pointing you in the right direction.

It's sad that it happens, but it does.

Generally speaking, people who do that are those who wish _they _were getting paid, too.

As to your questions, customers are always going to be more on the bothersome side as opposed to the "sit and wait" side. How you choose to handle the questions regarding poses, etc, is up to you, but I would be a bit more on the direct side concerning  the late night (and early morning) contact. That's just not acceptable. They wouldn't like you calling them out of the blue at two in the morning, so they shouldn't be doing it, either.

Unedited photos? Not a chance. I've only ever done that once, and the client paid pretty handsomely for it. If you don't agree to it beforehand, no way in Hell do they get them...


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## Steve5D (Aug 13, 2012)

amolitor said:


> It's simply FASCINATING the assumptions, unfounded as far as I can see, that people are making about the OP's business. Did he or she post details about expenses and margins and so on elsewhere, because I ain't seeing it here.
> 
> Photography is quite a different business than selling clothes, so manaheim's story is only tangentially related. You're selling your labor, and that's about it. You have a bunch of fixed expenses, sure, and a bunch of sunk costs, but the actual COGs boils down to whatever your time is worth plus some gas money. Whether or not you are "losing money" on day one depends almost entirely on how you are doing your accounting.
> 
> ...



A perfect post in every respect...


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## Steve5D (Aug 13, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and by the way..photography is a learning business. Every session teaches us something and if you are not learning I suggest you ask yourself what it is you a missing out on.
> ...



The father of an old high school friend has been a professional photographer for the better part of 60 years. He's almost 80, is working all the time, and makes a very handsome living.

His philosophy has always been that, when you stop learning, it means you know everything.

And nobody knows everything...


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## Steve5D (Aug 13, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> He tells the truth, and most people can't handle the truth these days. They want to be ego stroked and have information sugar coated and delivered to them on a plate of cotton candy. THAT'S what BS.



_That's _a load of crap.

It's quite possible to disagree without being disagreeable. The only reason to be disagreeable, in the manner we often see here on TPF, is because it makes the poster feel superior, and the person doing it always has some weird need to feel superior...


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## eilla05 (Aug 15, 2012)

manaheim said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you I appreciate that and quite honestly I bet you guys do get tired of answering the same old questions all the time....lol


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## andywag (Aug 16, 2012)

eilla05 said:


> How do you handle clients who do the following:
> 
> Call/text you at all hours of the night literally one texted me a 1:45am! Another 10:45pm and another 11:20 pm. _* Ignore the call/text until the following business day
> *_
> ...




Quite simply, sort this sort of stuff out BEFORE you shoot a single shot, put it in your t&c's and if you get queries after then refer them to the contract that they signed.


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## andywag (Aug 16, 2012)

amolitor said:


> . You're selling your labor, .



Absolutely not. As a professional photographer I am selling my labour, my skill, my artistry, my expertise amongst other less tangible things.

If you think that a photographer is just selling their labour then you are sadly mistaken.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 16, 2012)

andywag said:


> Absolutely not. As a professional photographer I am selling my labour, my skill, my artistry, my expertise amongst other less tangible things.
> 
> If you think that a photographer is just selling their labour then you are sadly mistaken.




Unfortunately... your statement is just as much of an opinion as his is.


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## andywag (Aug 16, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> andywag said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely not. As a professional photographer I am selling my labour, my skill, my artistry, my expertise amongst other less tangible things.
> ...



Absolutely, just my opinion is right and his is wrong :mrgreen:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 16, 2012)

andywag said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > . You're selling your labor, .
> ...



Actually, you figure all that into your CoDB, which yeilds your hourly labour rate.
So yes, in a way you are charging for all that, BUT it's wrapped up into your hourly rate.
You don't charge $85/hour labour + $10 skill fee + $50 artistic fee + $25 expertise fee...


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## godsotherson (Aug 16, 2012)

I am a new member here. This string of posts is most disheartening! The OP was seeking advice but most replies are not addressing her needs but addressing the lack of assist by previous posters. 
I am not a professional photographer but now have a need and desire to improve my skill set to both enjoy the creative side and be able to sell product without being in a store or at a show. I have been a successful full-time antique dealer and appraiser for over 35 years. My profession is actually very like the photographers with the only major difference being, you create the final product and I must find someone elses creation to be my final product.
I will address the price issue here and nothing else. The OP claims that her market will not support a higher price because 2 old studios have a price ceiling that she has yet to achieve. Her opinion is the local customers do not want to spend as much as the 2 studios charge, so she believes that by charging less they will use her services.
None of these suppositions can be proved. When you buy gas for your car most places are within 10 cents per/gal but many areas have a station which costs even more. Why?
Because they ask for more. The gas is the same but some buyers only want to buy the higher priced for a variety of reasons known only to themselves. Do not try to figure out why, just accept the obvious. You must then choose to be either the high volume/low mark-up seller or the low volume/high margin seller. Neither is right all the time. 
Regardless of which the OP chooses, she must in short order get a high enough price for her product to cover the overhead costs she chose to incur. I have observed over many years that a product that is priced too low compared to other similar products being offered is considered by many to be inferior or flawed. To prove my supposition, on several occasions I put identical items out for sale with different prices on each. In most instances the higher priced one sold first. That said, the only thing stopping the OP from setting a price higher than she thinks is right is her fear of failure at that level. She has complete control but must also have complete confidence to believe her price is right. Her posts do not give the impression that the confidence is present at this time.
I am sorry I do not have enough time to address the phone problems but will maybe say something another time.
good luck in your endevors


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## Tee (Aug 16, 2012)

godsotherson said:
			
		

> This string of posts is most disheartening! The OP was seeking advice but most replies are not addressing her needs but addressing the lack of assist by previous posters.



Is nobody reading this thread? There are plenty of replies to the original post.  It's like everyone is only seeking out the snarky posts so they can be a White Knight and scream " there's nobody helping...I'll save you!" 





> I will address the price issue here and nothing else.



Which was addressed nowhere in her original post. See... you just did what you were complaining about.  Congratulations!  You're a real member of TPF. Please see one of the mods and pick up your club jacket.


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## eric-holmes (Aug 16, 2012)

I missed the link to the OP's website.


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