# Why to be a Buzzkill!!!  My opinion of the Df has changed...



## TheLost (Nov 6, 2013)

I will admit that i REALLY like(d) the Df..

I liked the old school knobs..
I drank the cool-aid  and liked the idea of 'pure photography'..
I didn't mind the spec's as it would be a day-to-day camera (50mm 99% of the time)..
I could stomach the price..

And then i read Thom Hogans article (What Nikon Got Wrong | byThom | Thom Hogan)

The Df and the D800 are backwards!!!!

The Df should have the guts of the D800 (36mp) and be retro-cool-hipster-photo-centric-chic.
The D800 should have the guts of the D4 and be a 16mp speed powerhouse.

If Nikon would have done that we would have our D3x for hipsters (Df) and our D700/D300 small body pro (d800) for the sporty-birders.

... and nobody would have anything to ***** about on camera forums :mrgreen:


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## robbins.photo (Nov 6, 2013)

TheLost said:


> I will admit that i REALLY like(d) the Df..
> 
> I liked the old school knobs..
> I drank the cool-aid and liked the idea of 'pure photography'..
> ...



Did you read the article "What Thom Hogan got wrong, by the guys who actually make their living selling cameras?"

First bad assumption - that the people this is marketed towards will be choosing between it and the D800. Nope. The people this is marketed towards by and large have no idea what a D800 is nor would they probably care, in fact if you asked them about a D800 my bet is they would ask you in return, "Is that the new model of BMW?". This is pretty much where he goes off the rails and sadly never seems to realize the fundamental flaw in his thinking. Like most he assumes Nikon created this camera for us, with us in mind - the camera geeks. Those of us who already have some form of DSLR and are looking to upgrade, who know our cameras and have a specific wish list, etc.. etc.

That is not who this camera was designed for, not by a long shot. This is Nikon's "Look at our fancy new DSLR with the cool retro look on the shelves just in time for christmas" camera. Since it's so pricey, it must be a great camera. That's the market Nikon is after here, and from a marketing standpoint it makes perfect sense.

You don't build a camera for camera geeks to be released during the christmas shopping season - camera geeks will buy year round, most of them as soon as an upgrade is available. So why would you market a christmas camera at them? Total waste of time and money. 

Nope. Obviously Thom knows his cameras - but what I don't think he gets is that building the camera isn't really the primary thing here, it's the marketing. Now personally I won't be buying a DF - certainly not at that price point. I wouldn't recommend others do for the most part, I think you can get more bang for your buck (like Thom) with a different body. But the folks that Nikon is aiming for here aren't camera geeks, they don't hang out in forums, and they probably won't read a word of what Thom has to say on the subject.

Personally I'm ok with the Df - if Nikon makes a mint off this thing and it sells like gangbusters, great. Just means that come Jan when they do start looking at something marketed toward us camera geeks, maybe some additional R&D will be involved.


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2013)

I admit it, I still read Thom Hogan's articles pretty regularly, and I also read his first impressions of the Nikon Df piece yesterday. Although I do respect his experience very much, and admire the work he does, I think his judgement has begun to slip and become questionable over the last year or so. I myself used to be in camera and video camera sales for a small chain that had 13 camera stores. I've literally SOLD cameras, face to face, across a sales counter, and I was damned good at it too. I can tell you one thing...if I were still in the biz, the Df would be EASY to sell to qualified customers. Of multiple age demographics, and from multiple levels of experience.

I have not read the counter-article to Hogan's piece, but yesterday, as I read Hogan's list of complaints and fantasy suggestions, I thought to myself...."Wow..he really doesn't 'get it' any longer," and "He loves to second-guess the world's second-biggest camera maker, constantly." Since he has become more involved in the mirrorless camera issue, and has begun his new sansmirror website, his ideas about how a camera ought to be designed,and how it ought to work, seems to have become muddled and confused, mixing and matching d-slr with compact mirrorless buyers and users, and making sweeping, blanket assumptions that really don't seem to apply to all shooters, as well as trying to make weak arguments.

Case in point: he began the article by setting up a THREE-option scenario for how a camera pre-introduction can be perceived by the public. Unfortunately, life is not so simple as to have only "three" types of scenarios.

I like the retro look of the Df, and think it has some unique features. I have not made my mind up about the camera as it might or might not apply to me, since I have not even HELD ONE, but I have to say, I think Hogan's piece is riddled with facile statements. I would have to disagree with a number of his statements in many of his recent "*Here's what Nikon screwed up on!*' rants, which is what many of his columns have devolved into over the past year. He keeps criticizing almost everything the company does, based on his fantasy of how "he" would run the company and design the products. He basically rips on the camera without having held one. Or shot one. Now I must head off and read ,"What Thom Hogan got wrong, by the guys who actually make their living selling cameras". But as a former top camera salesman, I can tell you one thing...this thing will have MASSIVE appeal to many potential buyers.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 6, 2013)

Derrel said:


> I admit it, I still read Thom Hogan's articles pretty regularly, and I also read his first impressions of the Nikon Df piece yesterday. Although I do respect his experience very much, and admire the work he does, I think his judgement has begun to slip and become questionable over the last year or so. I myself used to be in camera and video camera sales for a small chain that had 13 camera stores. I've literally SOLD cameras, face to face, across a sales counter, and I was damned good at it too. I can tell you one thing...if I were still in the biz, the Df would be EASY to sell to qualified customers. Of multiple age demographics, and from multiple levels of experience.
> 
> I have not read the counter-article to Hogan's piece, but yesterday, as I read Hogan's list of complaints and fantasy suggestions, I thought to myself...."Wow..he really doesn't 'get it' any longer," and "He loves to second-guess the world's second-biggest camera maker, constantly." Since he has become more involved in the mirrorless camera issue, and has begun his new sansmirror website, his ideas about how a camera ought to be designed,and how it ought to work, seems to have become muddled and confused, mixing and matching d-slr with compact mirrorless buyers and users, and making sweeping, blanket assumptions that really don't seem to apply to all shooters, as well as trying to make weak arguments.
> 
> ...



Well nothing against Thom mind you, I'm sure he knows his stuff when it comes to cameras.  Problem is too many people are looking at the specs of the Df and judge it soley based on that without ever bothering to consider that the people Nikon is marketing this too don't buy cameras based on specs.  In fact most of the people I see buying this camera most likely either don't own a DSLR or if they do it probably has been sitting in the closet for years.  

I mean I get it why the camera geeks are all up in arms because Nikon didn't add this feature or that feature or yada yada - but I seriously don't thing the Df was ever meant to fill that role.  It's not designed to continue/replace a current line, etc - the Df is designed with one simple and clear goal in mind, make Nikon wheelbarrow's full of money for Christmas.  And I think that's a goal it will most likely fulfill quite nicely.

Oh, if you like the "What Thom Hogan got wrong" piece I think there is another one out now, "Thom Hogan doesn't run Nikon, my son does" - she sounds like a nice enough lady but she spends most of the article trying to sell off some unused F3's.  Kind of creepy really.


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## amolitor (Nov 6, 2013)

I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.

Forget the retro styling, and consider what you're getting for $2750 or whatever, and I think you'll see that the "retro premium" is quite close to $0. It's either a ruggedized, weatherized D610, or a chopped down D4, depending on how you feel about the sensor. And the price is, lo, right between the D610 and the D4. Go figger.


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## runnah (Nov 6, 2013)

amolitor said:


> I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.
> 
> Forget the retro styling, and consider what you're getting for $2750 or whatever, and I think you'll see that the "retro premium" is quite close to $0. It's either a ruggedized, weatherized D610, or a chopped down D4, depending on how you feel about the sensor. And the price is, lo, right between the D610 and the D4. Go figger.



The heartburn is the "why" of the whole thing. Its not cheap enough to be a quick cash grab and it's too gimmicky and cumbersome for a working professional. Its one of those cases where you wish they'd drop the marketing-speak and really say what the thought process is. I am sure folks at Nikon know exactly what they are doing and have pie charts and venn diagrams to back it up, but it leaves us and Thom guessing.


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2013)

runnah said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > I can't quite figure out why everyone keeps saying that the camera is expensive.
> ...



I don't see the Df as being all that gimmicky, or cumbersome for a working professional...it has all the same, basic controls all the pro-level Nikon d-slr bodies have ever had... M A S P exposure modes, same AF switch as the newest models, same flash shoe as the new cameras, modern TTL 3-D RGB Color Matrix light metering, 39 AF points, 9-lens memory to embed EXIF info when using non-CPU lenses, FULL ability to use any Nikon lens made since 1959...(except for the invasive fisheyes), Quiet Shutter firing mode, dedicated mirror lock-up control, Single, Continuous, Continuous High-speed advance, Self-timer modes, 920,000 pixel rear LCD screen...center-weighted, matrix, and spot light metering, dedicated X-synch speed, T-speed for extended time exposures without the need for ANY kind of cable or remote release button, PC socket to connect radio triggers...

It has the same sensor as the flagship low-light camera, the D4...

The 4.2 MP D2h premiered at $3,499...the D3 premiered at $4999, the D3x at $7999, the D4 at north of $6,500...this camera probably will exceed the image quality of the D4 one or two individual metrics, at a price compared to a single D4 body alone, that would allow a buyer to purchase TWO Df bodies, and have money left over for a very nice lens from Nikon...


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## pixmedic (Nov 6, 2013)

im with Derrel on this one. 
i cant see any reason why this would not be a perfectly workable "pro" camera. 
If the ISO handling is as good as the D4, this camera will be amazing for its price. 
a few downsides (if you can even really call them that)
d800's processor, 39 AF points, only 5.5 FPS....
but realistically, thats still pretty good spec wise. 
you are almost getting a D4, but for less than half the price.  
and when they start hitting the USED market? or start getting rebates? or store sales? 
this could be a very competitive camera even in the pro market. 
I think so anyway....
then again, im no Thom Hogan.


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## runnah (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.


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## TheLost (Nov 6, 2013)

runnah said:


> I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.



This is my point.. (well.. i stole it from Mr. Hogan).. 

If the Df used the sensor from the D800 but the AF system and shutter from the D610 it would make more sense.  Then Nikon is free to come out with a D800s that has the innards of the D4 in a small body.

You'd then have a $3000 D800 (D3x)... $3000 Df (reto cut-down D800)..  $3000 D800s (mini D4 16mp action monster).  Each camera has a specific target market and i believe they all would sell like hotcakes.


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2013)

Fast shooting adjustments? Two hands? Yes, these are the same kinds of issues young andy Westlake brought up in the dPreview hands-on preview piece today. A lot of the complaints are coming from people who have NEVER actually owned and used a camera that's layed out this way, and I interpret most of these sour grapes type comments due to two things: 1) It's priced out of the reach of most people, since as we know, the $400 Nikon D3100 from three years ago is the biggest selling Nikon in terms of volume... and 2) It's a well-proven way of controlling a camera that HAS BEEN and WAS used successfully by millions of people, for decades in a row and 3) It confuses newcomers who have no idea of how to "actually use" a camera this sophisticated.

For example...this is a PRO Nikon. Why do I say that? Full weather sealing, magnesium chassis, a very large, very bright viewfinder with the ROUND eyepiece (a sure tip it's a pro body), and it also has the separate, fully-customizable DUAL AF-Lock/AE-Lock and separate AF-ON buttons, like a D1x, D2x or D3x has. Given the weight of this body with the small battery, it's a good bet that the pentaprism is flagship-level bright, clear, and sharp; Andy Westlake raved about the view through the finder eyepiece.

As to the ISO dial being top left: YES!!!!!!!!!!! I adjust my ISO at most once or twice an hour on most days....on some assignments, many in fact, I will set the ISO level and leave it there for 500 to 800 frames, so the "can't adjust my ISO when looking thru the viewfinder" is basically a lame 'negative' we hear mostly from people who dick around with the ISO all the time. Same with the M A S P or exposure mode control...I leave mine in A much of the time...when shooting flash I ALWAYS put the camera in M mode. ALways,always,always; I think in 13 years with a d-slr, I have shot maybe 25 flash pictures in P mode, back with my D1 in 2002. The exposure comp dial...it's on top, and has a locking button...that's because the "old way" of shooting using exposure comp is using it as an "offset" to refine the exposure the meter gives, to protect one's highlights, or to compensate for a specific background that has unusual brightness or darkness. With a modern, color-aware Nikon that meters the reflectance and color and distance to the subject, the in-camera meter can make adjustments pretty easily, so exposure compensation is not needed all that much these days, but it CAN be used to compensate for backlighting, or very DARK backgrounds, or when metering in spotlighted situations,etc.. Exposure comp is a tool, not a crutch. If you "need" to use it every frame, you need to learn how to shoot better, or meter better. In SPot or heavily C/W metering modes, you almost never,ever use Exp. Comp. Amazing--a made-up problem goes away if you know how to meter!

But the whole, "I can't yo-yo my ISO up and down and all over the place while looking through the finder," complaint is a joke. News FLASH--LEARN TO SHOOT, and you will realize that adjusting the ISO every 5 minutes marks you as a newbie. If one *insists* on holding the camera up to his eye so that he can see the ISO values in the camera finder, just to be able to adjust the ISO, it marks him not only as a newbie, but as a petulant newbie unable to adapt to even the most minor deviation from the way he's learned to operate a camera. The ISO thru the finder issue...OMG...if one needs constant ISO adjustment, the Df has AUTO ISO setting capability, and the Max ISO it will run up to will be displayed, on top of the camera, at ALL TIMES, constantly,without the need to push a button and go to a menu to review the AUTO-ISO settings. Full-time, full disclosure information, right where it needs to be to be seen, and adjusted without menu-diving.

Again, this body has an AE-Lock AF-LOCK button AND a separate AF-ON button on the back. There will probably be at least SIX options for how to configure these two buttons, either interlocking the AE lock with the focus lock, or separating them, or even switching BOTH buttons to be AF-ON function, which is the last option. Again, these are PRO-level, flagship Nikon functions that have been around for a decade, and the kind of user that will want this camera understands one thing: this camera can be customized far,far more than a D3200 or D5100 or most other consumer bodies.

Anyway, I'm intimately familiar with the pro-level Nikon bodies and how they can be set up to meter and focus. For every complaint I read about the Df, I can think of a counter-argument. It's a shame that the MAJORITY of people writing on-line about this new body are producing shoddy,shoddy "journalism", filled with editorializing and idiotic comments, instead of reporting accurately and dispassionately about the facts. Most of the younger web and YouTube commentators are so green and wet behind the ears that they're literally blind to the reasoning that went into engineering this camera, and its feature set. It's pretty amusing. But then...these are people with 4 or 5 years of experience, and they have no concept of "how" to actually shoot, other than with digital control equipment. They just do not have the actual experience to understand that "analog" controls are not, by default, a limitation, or a handicap, and in some cases are actually easier to use, and show more information, at a glance. In the on-line materials I have seen, almost every single writer's complaints are in the areas the camera is "different than what he himself understands, or different from what he is personally used to". Or...as mentioned, that it's too expensive. Or it's not like his D3100 or his D90. No chit. It's a pro-oriented Nikon.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 6, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Fast shooting adjustments? Two hands? Yes, these are the same kinds of issues young andy Westlake brought up in the dPreview hands-on preview piece today. A lot of the complaints are coming from people who have NEVER actually owned and used a camera that's layed out this way, and I interpret most of these sour grapes type comments due to two things: 1) It's priced out of the reach of most people, since as we know, the $400 Nikon D3100 from three years ago is the biggest selling Nikon in terms of volume... and 2) It's a well-proven way of controlling a camera that HAS BEEN and WAS used successfully by millions of people, for decades in a row and 3) It confuses newcomers who have no idea of how to "actually use" a camera this sophisticated.



So wait, you should actually use the camera before you review it?  Sounds a bit on the crazy side really.  I mean as a photographer you should be able to get everything you need from just looking at the pictures, right?



> For example...this is a PRO Nikon. Why do I say that? Full weather sealing, magnesium chassis, a very large, very bright viewfinder with the ROUND eyepiece (a sure tip it's a pro body), and it also has the separate, fully-customizable DUAL AF-Lock/AE-Lock and separate AF-ON buttons, like a D1x, D2x or D3x has. Given the weight of this body with the small battery, it's a good bet that the pentaprism is flagship-level bright, clear, and sharp; Andy Westlake raved about the view through the finder eyepiece.



I thought the dial arrangement looked fantastic myself.  




> But the whole, "I can't yo-yo my ISO up and down and all over the place while looking through the finder," complaint is a joke. News FLASH--LEARN TO SHOOT, and you will realize that adjusting the ISO every 5 minutes marks you as a newbie.



Ok, so where do I fall on that scale if I'm adjusting it every 2.5 minutes?  Lol




> If one *insists* on holding the camera up to his eye so that he can see the ISO values in the camera finder, just to be able to adjust the ISO, it marks him not only as a newbie, but as a petulant newbie unable to adapt to even the most minor deviation from the way he's learned to operate a camera. The ISO thru the finder issue...OMG...if one needs constant ISO adjustment, the Df has AUTO ISO setting capability, and the Max ISO it will run up to will be displayed, on top of the camera, at ALL TIMES, constantly,without the need to push a button and go to a menu to review the AUTO-ISO settings. Full-time, full disclosure information, right where it needs to be to be seen, and adjusted without menu-diving.



Well my big complaint is there is no way to order a pizza through the viewfinder.  I mean seriously, who's idea was that?  



> Again, this body has an AE-Lock AF-LOCK button AND a separate AF-ON button on the back. There will probably be at least SIX options for how to configure these two buttons, either interlocking the AE lock with the focus lock, or separating them, or even switching BOTH buttons to be AF-ON function, which is the last option. Again, these are PRO-level, flagship Nikon functions that have been around for a decade, and the kind of user that will want this camera understands one thing: this camera can be customized far,far more than a D3200 or D5100 or most other consumer bodies.



And if it sells well enough, which it most likely will, they will probably continue to make additional versions to expand the market.  



> Anyway, I'm intimately familiar with the pro-level Nikon bodies and how they can be set up to meter and focus. For every complaint I read about the Df, I can think of a counter-argument. It's a shame that the MAJORITY of people writing on-line about this new body are producing shoddy,shoddy "journalism", filled with editorializing and idiotic comments, instead of reporting accurately and dispassionately about the facts. Most of the younger web and YouTube commentators are so green and wet behind the ears that they're literally blind to the reasoning that went into engineering this camera, and its feature set. It's pretty amusing. But then...these are people with 4 or 5 years of experience, and they have no concept of "how" to actually shoot, other than with digital control equipment. They just do not have the actual experience to understand that "analog" controls are not, by default, a limitation, or a handicap, and in some cases are actually easier to use, and show more information, at a glance. In the on-line materials I have seen, almost every single writer's complaints are in the areas the camera is "different than what he himself understands, or different from what he is personally used to". Or...as mentioned, that it's too expensive. Or it's not like his D3100 or his D90. No chit. It's a pro-oriented Nikon.



Well the people writing this stuff, lets face it, they are camera geeks.  Like me.  Like you.  They have a wishlist of items they wanted to see in the next Nikon release, and they are a little cheesed off that Nikon didn't build the camera specifically for them.  They just aren't getting the concept that the Df is not marketed towards them.  Or if they are getting that concept it's just hacking them off even more I guess... lol.

But no worries really.  I have a feeling the sales numbers on the Df will be pretty good, and I also have a feeling that if I wait long enough I can probably pick one up pretty cheap used a year or two from now, which works wonderfully for me.  I'd love to have something like this in my bag, I can think of a lot of uses for it.  Probably wouldn't become my primary, but having something lightweight that I could pull out and do some really outstanding portraits with while leaving my other camera setup with the telephoto would be great.  Looks like it would be fun to shoot with, so eventually if I can get one in a price range that makes sense for me I'll most likely buy one.

In the meantime I think Nikon has a winner on it's hands here - and I'm not worried about the terrible outcry and criticism the camera faces from certain quarters.  Honestly the vast majority of the people that this camera is initially marketed to will never see any of that anyway.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 6, 2013)

TheLost said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think the guts are an issue I think is more the function and layout. It makes fast shooting adjustments harder because it's not all on the same side and requires two hands. Makes using a handheld flash very difficult.
> ...



Well if Nikon were marketing this thing to folks that own multiple DSLR's already then yes, that would make perfect sense.  But they really aren't.  So for them it made more marketing sense to make the camera usable and capable but not overwhelming for the non-camera pro.  They were also wanting to keep the cost per unit down because, well they aren't shooting for massive sales numbers here at that price point.  They are looking at a smaller number of sales but a larger profit per camera.


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## Mach0 (Nov 6, 2013)

I wouldn't mind renting one... Let's see when they are available.


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## amolitor (Nov 6, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Well if Nikon were marketing this thing to folks that own multiple DSLR's already then yes, that would make perfect sense.  But they really aren't.



Well, they're certainly marketing it to Serious Photographers. Maybe they were marketing to the rare Serious Photographer who doesn't already own a camera? The film people? Who?

I'm pretty sure they were marketing it to EXACTLY people who have at least one DSLR already, or at least some expensive piece of photo kit, possibly multiple, and who want.. something else. Gear enthusiasts who fancy themselves Serious Photographers. Film People who haven't yet made the switch to digital because they love their film gear. D4 owners who want a cheaper second body. Older guys getting sick of dragging medium/large format gear around.


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## TheLost (Nov 6, 2013)

amolitor said:


> I'm pretty sure they were marketing it to EXACTLY people who have at least one DSLR already, or at least some expensive piece of photo kit, possibly multiple, and who want.. something else. Gear enthusiasts who fancy themselves Serious Photographers. Film People who haven't yet made the switch to digital because they love their film gear. D4 owners who want a cheaper second body. Older guys getting sick of dragging medium/large format gear around.



... or people like me who cant wait to put it on an sweet leather strap and hike the hills of Scotland in my wool coat... MAN I'M GONG TO LOOK FREAKING AWESOME!!  

I am only 1/2 joking.  I love the layout and the dials... i will be at my local camera shop the day this thing comes out and give it a good tickle.


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2013)

robbins.photo said:
			
		

> Well the people writing this stuff, lets face it, they are camera geeks.  Like me.  Like you.  They have a wishlist of items they wanted to see in the next Nikon release, and they are a little cheesed off that Nikon didn't build the camera specifically for them.  They just aren't getting the concept that the Df is not marketed towards them.  Or if they are getting that concept it's just hacking them off even more I guess... lol..



Somewhere I have a picture of my kid bawling his eyes out...I need to find it and make a meme out of it for the Fro Knows Photo crowd...title it, "_Why you cryin' like a little baby_?" and then at the bottom, it needs to say, "_Nikon didn't make the camera I WANTED 'EM TO MAKE!!!_"

Yeah...I've seen this before...Whenever anything "new" comes out, there's always a slew of detractors telling whomever will listen how awful the new thing is going to be. I can name off a few...Ford Taurus, Netflicks, Comedy Central, the iPod, iMac, iPhone...all of those were *utter crap *when they were introduced. At least according to the *old folks at home*! 

I remember how vitriolic people were when Apple introduced the curvy, bondi blue colored iMac back in the late 1990's...Satan in a Computer, right? I remember when Apple said, "Hey--we're gonna sell music as downloads!" The HORROR!!! How would people stack their CD cases in bookshelves to show off their massive peni...err...their massive collections of music on CD!

I remember when the first version of Microsoft Windows OS hit the market. The DOS-based clown suit was soundly dissed by so,so,so many. They KNEW that DOS and the command line interface were better than a mouse and those infernal....Windows! LOL.


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## cgw (Nov 7, 2013)

Derrel said:


> I admit it, I still read Thom Hogan's articles pretty regularly, and I also read his first impressions of the Nikon Df piece yesterday. Although I do respect his experience very much, and admire the work he does, I think his judgement has begun to slip and become questionable over the last year or so. I myself used to be in camera and video camera sales for a small chain that had 13 camera stores. I've literally SOLD cameras, face to face, across a sales counter, and I was damned good at it too. I can tell you one thing...if I were still in the biz, the Df would be EASY to sell to qualified customers. Of multiple age demographics, and from multiple levels of experience.
> 
> I have not read the counter-article to Hogan's piece, but yesterday, as I read Hogan's list of complaints and fantasy suggestions, I thought to myself...."Wow..he really doesn't 'get it' any longer," and "He loves to second-guess the world's second-biggest camera maker, constantly." Since he has become more involved in the mirrorless camera issue, and has begun his new sansmirror website, his ideas about how a camera ought to be designed,and how it ought to work, seems to have become muddled and confused, mixing and matching d-slr with compact mirrorless buyers and users, and making sweeping, blanket assumptions that really don't seem to apply to all shooters, as well as trying to make weak arguments.
> 
> ...



Hindsight's always 20-20, as you show, so we'll see how you do with this one.

Hogan reads the annual reports and can probably sort the financial statements, too. He's making nothing up and doesn't offer unqualified, fact-free observations. It remains very much his take but he's in touch with whatever data Nikon provides. That's his trade. He doesn't mix-up BS and informed opinion. There's a difference.

Nikon's 2013 Annual Report | byThom | Thom Hogan

Friends behind counters here today talk of the sort of customer "leakage" Hogan recently discussed. It's affecting both Nikon and Canon. It's also no "fantasy." Think the market is slightly more complicated in late 2013--something you'd see quickly if you were selling. Mike Johnston spoke to this recently by asking if FF cameras are really necessary in the Online Photographer. Non-DSLR systems are catching up and suit the needs of many.


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## amolitor (Nov 7, 2013)

Just because Thom is right about some things doesn't mean that he's right about other things.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 7, 2013)

cgw said:


> Hindsight's always 20-20, as you show, so we'll see how you do with this one.
> 
> Hogan reads the annual reports and can probably sort the financial statements, too. He's making nothing up and doesn't offer unqualified, fact-free observations. It remains very much his take but he's in touch with whatever data Nikon provides. That's his trade. He doesn't mix-up BS and informed opinion. There's a difference.
> 
> ...



Thom might be a pretty knowledgeable guy, but I seriously doubt Nikon has given him access to their internal marketing data. I work for a small business, a very small business when you compare us to the company the size of Nikon. We regularly review our internal information to determine what products and services are selling well, how to best market and how to tailor new products to our consumers. We also look for ways to offer products that will attract new consumers. Like most businesses of any size we have a department full of professionals being well paid to analyze this data and give us their best estimates on which products and services they feel will be the most profitable for the company, both short and long term.

Thom's analysis doesn't consider any of this data, because he wouldn't have access to it. Nothing against Thom, I'm sure he's a wonderful guy and all, but he can't possibly do a proper analysis because frankly he simply doesn't have the facts he would need to really do that. The only people who do would be in Nikon's marketing department. That's not to say that such things are infalible or that all marketing departments are always right, but Thom's analysis fails in the same way that so many others do, in that he makes the assumption that he represents the core market for which this camera is built. He doesn't. I don't either.

What he really needs to do is go back and rethink his "review" on this basis - understanding that this is not a camera that is meant to replace anything in the current Nikon line up. The fact that it is being released during the Christmas season is not a coincidence, and that alone should tell you droves about the sort of people Nikon is attempting to reach with this camera. It should answer any questions you might have about why the put an autofocusing system in it with fewer focus points - or eliminated certain options, etc. This wasn't something Nikon threw together on a whim after all, they put some thought into this one. So instead of getting a full head of steam on and trying to say that this choice was wrong or that choice was wrong stop and try to think about why Nikon made that choice in the first place. Once you do their choices start making a lot of sense.

But you won't get anywhere going into this with the same perspective Thom has, or a lot of other people have on the subject. They look at it from the "I want feature X, therefore Nikon should have included it" standpoint. What they need to do is stop and think, ok, if I were a first time buyer or someone who hadn't used a camera for a while or often would feature X really be something I would care about, and if so would it be worth an additional amount of $X for me."

Sure they could have loaded this thing down with one of everything on everyone's wish list - of course if they had they wouldn't have sold a single unit because the camera would be priced so ridiculously high only Warren Buffett could afford one, not to mention the camera itself gets more and more difficult and complex with each additional feature.


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## Buck777 (Nov 7, 2013)

My only hesitation to the Df is price. It's going to be roughly the price of a D800, with the workings of a D610 and a D4 processor. Is the processor worth that much? Arguable. I just love the feel of the old film cameras. With the amount of bodies churning out its getting to a stage that its like mobile phones.....don't fall in love with what you've got because the next one out kills it dead. Somehow the concept of a Df seems timeless, and I guess that's the market Nikon have aimed for. I definitely have a foot in that camp.


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## PhotoWrangler (Nov 7, 2013)

Quite frankly, I dont think the D800 should be in the "DSLR" category to begin with. It's overkill, and useless to 90% of the people who own one.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 7, 2013)

I just don't know any hipster who has $3000 to throw at a retro-yet-not-at-all camera.

Maybe it's being marketed toward Gen X? 

I don't know if many working pros will like it, but I know several older photogs (no offense) who are already falling in lust with this camera.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 7, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> I just don't know any hipster who has $3000 to throw at a retro-yet-not-at-all camera.
> 
> Maybe it's being marketed toward Gen X?
> 
> I don't know if many working pros will like it, but I know several older photogs (no offense) who are already falling in lust with this camera.



I have no doubt Nikon will hit their targeted sales numbers with it.  This isn't really a camera built for camera geeks or working pro's, that's not who they are after here.  No need for them to market this to that crowd because they know that crowd will buy the replacement for the D800 or the D7100 as soon as it comes out.  Nope, this thing is for Christmas shoppers - they covered the entry level market with the release of the D5300, this is their high end offering for X-mas.  What they have here is a camera that required almost no R&D, uses tried and true technology, has been simplified enough that your non camera geek will be able to use it, but still has that cool "retro" factor that will boost sales.  Their are more than a few people out there who think that the more something costs, the better it must be - and that is a big part of the market Nikon is going after with this one.  Probably one of the reasons they used the less complicated AF system - easier for the non camera geeks to use.


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## cgw (Nov 8, 2013)

_Thom might be a pretty knowledgeable guy, but I seriously doubt Nikon has given him access to their internal marketing data. I work for a small business, a very small business when you compare us to the company the size of Nikon. We regularly review our internal information to determine what products and services are selling well, how to best market and how to tailor new products to our consumers. We also look for ways to offer products that will attract new consumers. Like most businesses of any size we have a department full of professionals being well paid to analyze this data and give us their best estimates on which products and services they feel will be the most profitable for the company, both short and long term.

Thom's analysis doesn't consider any of this data, because he wouldn't have access to it. Nothing against Thom, I'm sure he's a wonderful guy and all, but he can't possibly do a proper analysis because frankly he simply doesn't have the facts he would need to really do that. The only people who do would be in Nikon's marketing department. That's not to say that such things are infalible or that all marketing departments are always right, but Thom's analysis fails in the same way that so many others do, in that he makes the assumption that he represents the core market for which this camera is built. He doesn't. I don't either.

_Hogan's data aren't any different from what you or I can access: quarterly financials, annual reports, stock prices and analysis. It's a public company. Don't believe I've read anything by him based on the "trusted sources" crap cited on the rumor sites. You don't have to agree with him but what's the point of discrediting him unless you're privy to more than he knows?


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## cgw (Nov 8, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Just because Thom is right about some things doesn't mean that he's right about other things.



Nothing like a firm grasp of the obvious.


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## amolitor (Nov 8, 2013)

cgw said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > Just because Thom is right about some things doesn't mean that he's right about other things.
> ...



You keep citing his rightness on one thing as evidence that he's right about other things, so I thought I'd help you out a little.


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## TheLost (Nov 8, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> I just don't know any hipster who has $3000 to throw at a retro-yet-not-at-all camera.
> 
> Maybe it's being marketed toward Gen X?
> 
> I don't know if many working pros will like it, but I know several older photogs (no offense) who are already falling in lust with this camera.



Target market*...





I know at least two wedding photographers that have ordered one...  It's less 'in your face' and fits in with their style of shooting (young mid-20's D.I.N.K. couples getting married and want a hip-cool-funky photographer).


(*full disclosure...  I want the Df and in the past 8 years have owned two rovers... It's like they've tapped into my mind!!!)


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

cgw said:


> Hogan's data aren't any different from what you or I can access: quarterly financials, annual reports, stock prices and analysis. It's a public company. Don't believe I've read anything by him based on the "trusted sources" crap cited on the rumor sites. You don't have to agree with him but what's the point of discrediting him unless you're privy to more than he knows?



I wasn't attempting to discredit anyone. He doesn't have access to Nikon's internal marketing data. I don't either. Neither do you. This isn't the sort of information that any company would release. That is really the only point I was attempting to make, it is a very valid point and quite frankly your emotional over reaction is completely unwarranted. None of the information you cited would give anyone any insight whatsoever into how well a new camera design may or may not perform. 

So no, I don't agree with him. Neither am I making an effort to discredit him. Merely pointing out that he does not have access to the data necessary to make a critical analysis of the possible sales performance of the Df. Nikon does, and I doubt they would have released it without considering that data. Question is, are there marketing peoople right? In this case I'm guessing they probably are, and that while the sales for the Df probably won't be a huge number in terms of number of units the profit per unit sold will most likely be a very good thing for Nikon's bottom line. I can also see that if the Df proves popular enough it might grow into it's own line.

I also pointed out that Thom's analysis fails due to the same mistaken assumption that so many others suffer from, that the Df is meant as a replacement for various other models already available. It isn't. If you look at the way in which Nikon is marketing it and how the release date coincides with the christmas shopping season it becomes fairly obvious that the Df isn't meant to compete with the D800, D6x0, etc - it's not designed as a replacement for these systems. It's not, by and large, aimed at that market. Sure, you might have some folks who already own systems like that also purchase a Df for a variety of reasons, but Nikon's aim here is not to migrate people from these camera's to the Df.

Not sure why this is such an emotional subject for you, for me it isn't. I simply am looking at the facts I have available and giving the best analysis I can from those facts. If that upsets you then I suggest then perhaps you might want to stop and think about why.


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## TheFantasticG (Nov 8, 2013)

Funny, I got really excited about it. I'm more than able to purchase the camera (even though I'll be risking the wrath of my ol' lady). I got excited about the button/knob layout because after years with the D90 and D7000 I'm want my button controls to quickly change settings. At the same time the 11 and 39 pt AFs have been lackluster enough with the lenses I own that I don't trust them to track kids well enough to my standards. I say that from trying to AF my friends under 3 yo kids. And yes, I know how to use the AF and I tried many combos (AF settings and lenses), but the kids always seem to best the AF at the most important moments. So, I was hoping the new cam to have the 51 pt AF. Since it doesn't, I'm either going to end up with the D7100, D800, or waiting to see what the V3 is going to be. DOF isn't a concern as the two main types of photography I participate in I need more not less DOF. ISO performance is neglible between them (D7100 & D800), IMO. I don't know. I still have time to think about it as the wife isn't even preggo yet... and I just bought a new motorcycle to occupy my time 



Mach0 said:


> I wouldn't mind renting one... Let's see when they are available.



Same here. If they actually improve the 39 pt AF to act like the 51 pt AF then I'll get one. Otherwise, no.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

TheFantasticG said:


> Funny, I got really excited about it. I'm more than able to purchase the camera (even though I'll be risking the wrath of my ol' lady). I got excited about the button/knob layout because after years with the D90 and D7000 I'm want my button controls to quickly change settings. At the same time the 11 and 39 pt AFs have been lackluster enough with the lenses I own that I don't trust them to track kids well enough to my standards. I say that from trying to AF my friends under 3 yo kids. And yes, I know how to use the AF and I tried many combos (AF settings and lenses), but the kids always seem to best the AF at the most important moments. So, I was hoping the new cam to have the 51 pt AF. Since it doesn't, I'm either going to end up with the D7100, D800, or waiting to see what the V3 is going to be. DOF isn't a concern as the two main types of photography I participate in I need more not less DOF. ISO performance is neglible between them (D7100 & D800), IMO. I don't know. I still have time to think about it as the wife isn't even preggo yet... and I just bought a new motorcycle to occupy my time
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not even sure a 102 point auto system can get the best of your average 3 year old.  Have you tried duct tape?  Lol


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## TheFantasticG (Nov 8, 2013)

Well, I figure the better it can track the better the chances of getting the shots I want.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

TheFantasticG said:


> Well, I figure the better it can track the better the chances of getting the shots I want.



True, but if your kids were anything like mine at that age not even the most advanced military equipment backed by a cray super computer would do the job.. lol


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## Derrel (Nov 8, 2013)

Bjorn Rorslett, a noted Nikon expert, got to handle and shoot the Df at the official Nikon launch for the "Nikon Nordic" region in Europe. There's a 20-page thread over on Nikongear.com about the camera, and his impressions from actually SHOOTING the camera are sprinkled throughout the thread. I read through it last night...

According to Bjorn, with the Df he was able to accurately focus the 50mm f/1.2 Noct-Nikkor, as well as the 35mm f/1.4 manual focus lenses EASILY, and with a high "keeper" percentage, based on photos he actually shot. He figured that since the camera was allegedly designed to work well with manual focus lenses, that he should bring a few of his literally, hundreds, of lenses, to the official opening in his region. 

He mentions a few things, one of the most important being that this camera's viewfinder is MUCH BETTER than the one in the D800 or D800e, with better ability to see the entire viewfinder area edge-to-edge even while wearing his eyeglasses. It will be about two weeks until Nikon's Nordic office delivers his camera for review, but he was extremely pleased with the ability of the viewfinder and screen and eyepiece system to deliver a bight and crisp and easily-seen view, as well as the optimization efforts Nikon has made toward focusing this thing by hand-and-eye. In the thread are some mentions about possible prism coatings and optical modifications, the ocular lens of the eyepiece perhaps being designed with aspherical elements that might improve the view, and so on. He stated repeatedly and emphatically that the viewfinder image is BETTER than that of the D800 or D800e, and stated that it categorically is NOT the "same" viewfinder system as is used in the D4.

He stated that the camera's operation is very easy for a person who understands how the camera is designed. He used the phrase, the "operation is trivial", meaning very easy and straightforward.

Impressions of the Nikon Df - Editor's Forum - Nikongear.com


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Bjorn Rorslett, a noted Nikon expert


 And Nordic secret agent? My name is Rorslett. Bjorn Rorslett. Lol



> got to handle and shoot the Df at the official Nikon launch for the "Nikon Nordic" region in Europe. There's a 20-page thread over on Nikongear.com about the camera, and his impressions from actually SHOOTING the camera are sprinkled throughout the thread. I read through it last night...



Wait, you mean he actually used it before he started writing opinions on it? Good lord man, do you have any idea what that will do to the silly rant industry if this idea catches on! The man must be stopped!



> According to Bjorn,



Man, if that doesn't just roll of the old tongue.. lol



> with the Df he was able to accurately focus the 50mm f/1.2 Noct-Nikkor, as well as the 35mm f/1.4 manual focus lenses EASILY, and with a high "keeper" percentage, based on photos he actually shot. He figured that since the camera was allegedly designed to work well with manual focus lenses, that he should bring a few of his literally, hundreds, of lenses, to the official opening in his region.



So by going with the less complicated AF system it actually made things easier for the non-camera geeks to work with? Are you trying to tell me that's actually a good idea from a marketing standpoint?!?!? Hmm... seems like I've read something like that around here before.. can't quite place my finger on it though...



> He mentions a few things, one of the most important being that this camera's viewfinder is MUCH BETTER than the one in the D800 or D800e, with better ability to see the entire viewfinder area edge-to-edge even while wearing his eyeglasses.
> He stated that the camera's operation is very easy for a person who understands how the camera is designed. He used the phrase, the "operation is trivial", meaning very easy and straightforward.
> 
> Impressions of the Nikon Df - Editor's Forum - Nikongear.com



Great post Derrel. Say, were going to be having a luncheon as soon as this whole thing is settled. Hope you don't mind, we put you down for the roast beef. Apparently there are far too many people that already ordered crow so that option is no longer available - lol


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