# Client Request: What's acceptable?



## Azriel (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm curious what's acceptable in showing a client. Here's my example.

I shot an interior for a designer and she wanted a contact sheet before I touched them up. Me I'd rather touch them up first, at least a bit, they are RAW files, but I made a contact sheet and sent it.

She says now they're too small and she would like to come by, and go over them on my PC or larger.

Something told me it wasn't right, but I can't put it into words, am I crazy?


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## epp_b (Jan 13, 2010)

Processing is a part of *ANY AND ALL *photos.  A photo (especially a RAW photo) without processing is like Barnes & Noble selling you a novel printed on A4 sheets of paper with an inkjet instead of properly printed and bound with a glossy cover.

I would say that you should find what she means by "touching up".  Is she referring to normal processing?  Run away.  Is she referring to removing unwanted elements, cleaning up blemishes and removing spots?  Well, the ethics or honesty of that for her to decide and for you discuss with her.

I would process them and offer to give her larger, watermarked sample prints.  If they were "too small" for her the first time, she probably won't notice them that differently after you process them, assuming you have a "realistic" processing style (which you should if you're trying to be representative of a design).


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## NateWagner (Jan 13, 2010)

^agreed. 

If nothing else I would correct WB, contrast etc. 

Once they were to the point they were technically correct to your standards then I would say that she could see them. My hunch is that she doesn't want you to take off scratches etc. without her knowledge. That, or she just wants to see a before and after. 

Having her see them on your computer shouldn't be a problem (I wouldn't think), but I would still show her the images that were corrected to a technically correct standard.


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## Big Mike (Jan 13, 2010)

> I shot an interior for a designer and she wanted a contact sheet before I touched them up. Me I'd rather touch them up first, at least a bit, they are RAW files, but I made a contact sheet and sent it.
> 
> She says now they're too small and she would like to come by, and go over them on my PC or larger.
> 
> Something told me it wasn't right, but I can't put it into words, am I crazy?



That doesn't sound so far fetched to me.  If she's only looking for a few of the best images, what's the point in having you edit all of them just for her to pick a few?  And can you blame someone for wanting to see larger images before selecting the ones that they will use?  After all, designers are usually visual people who are detail orientated.  

I would consider this type of job to be a professional collaboration, so it would make sense to let the other party give you some input before you do more work than you need to.  

I'm not saying you have to show her the untouched RAW images, but would it be so bad to show her the shots after only the basic RAW adjustments for color & tone etc?  

Sure, it might get to be a problem if she starts trying to micromanage your editing...but that is a far cry from just wanting to see them on your monitor.

If you don't want clients coming to your home/office, that's fair too.  Then maybe send her monitor sized files with a watermark or give her a set of proof prints etc.


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## Azriel (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks for everyone great advice. I think I'll do a combo of what everyone said. I'll do some basic stuff like wb and exp, then send her another contact sheet with like 4 to a page or something.


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## gsgary (Jan 13, 2010)

It's only the same as they did years ago, print contact sheet and choose which they wanted to print or use in the advert


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## craig (Jan 13, 2010)

Interior designers are some of my best clients. Problem is they are all insane. If you survived the shoot the hard part is over. Keep in mind that interior designers are very colour oriented. Unless you have a weird colour cast hold off on WB and talk with the client. Having a client look over your shoulder is a tough deal, so it sounds like you are taking the right approach. No matter what make her happy. 

Love & Bass


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## epp_b (Jan 13, 2010)

Having a client look over your shoulder while you work is just asking to be micromanaged.


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## gsgary (Jan 14, 2010)

epp_b said:


> Having a client look over your shoulder while you work is just asking to be micromanaged.



What do you think happens at a big studio shoot


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## Azriel (Jan 14, 2010)

I went back and looked at my cover sheet. It was pretty damn small...i fit 20 shots to a page. So I am resending her a contact sheet that's 3 by 5, which incidentally is my new standard. :er:


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## c.cloudwalker (Jan 14, 2010)

gsgary said:


> epp_b said:
> 
> 
> > Having a client look over your shoulder while you work is just asking to be micromanaged.
> ...



+1 





Azriel said:


> I went back and looked at my cover sheet. It was pretty damn small...i fit 20 shots to a page. So I am resending her a contact sheet that's 3 by 5, which incidentally is my new standard. :er:



Yes, that is definitely small. Especially for someone who is not used to dealing with contact sheets.

As for this person coming to you to look at them on your computer, why not? I don't see anything weird with the idea and I would rather that than doing on his/her computer which may not be color calibrated.


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## epp_b (Jan 14, 2010)

> What do you think happens at a big studio shoot


Fair enough.  I was referring to the processing step.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jan 14, 2010)

epp_b said:


> > What do you think happens at a big studio shoot
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  I was referring to the processing step.



Same with PP. I've had people sitting outside my darkroom waiting on every print to make notes on what to correct  and I would think it is even worse with digital because you don't have anyone who doesn't like "darkroom smells."


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## jubb (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't let people see my untouched up work.  I think the should only see what I want them to see of my work.


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## craig (Jan 15, 2010)

jubb said:


> I don't let people see my untouched up work.  I think the should only see what I want them to see of my work.



Arguably this is viable for the retail photographer. As a commercial photographer my client looks at most if not every single image in it's raw form. We work together and figure out what is working and what is not. I feel this is one of the benefits of digi. Instant gratification. For me the client needs to be 107.5% satisfied with the images before I pack my bags.

Love & Bass


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## Chris Cummins (Jan 16, 2010)

She's not being unreasonable. 

Not to state the obvious but...It does highlight the big picture focus we should all have on making sure the actual cost of the job are figured into our invoices and estimates. I stopped telling people a simple headshot would take 30 minutes when I realized I was spending two to three extra hours handling the photos, prepping them and uploading them into galleries on top of satisfying all kinds of requests after the shoot.

Take out the clunkers but give her a very generous edit of toned images for the contact sheet at the size she needs.

Answer her needs. Create solutions, not problems, or obstacles. If it turns into a major drain beyond what you originally agreed to do then you may want to think twice about working with her in the future.


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## Azriel (Jan 16, 2010)

I saw her yesterday, having the printed contact sheet (3x5) of the raw images was fine.


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## Joshua907 (Jan 16, 2010)

maybe she wants it RAW......hahhahahahahahaha   ....too much?


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## Azriel (Feb 12, 2010)

okie dokie, so in the end I lost her as a client anyway.

Decide for yourself if it was worth it or not.

Azriel
As you can see I am working on putting together some promo material.  The only problem is the files you gave me for the pictures Brian is referring to are the black sofa with orange pattern on the side (orange sofa 617KB), and yellow sofa with purple pattern on the side (purple living room 639KB). yet the photo of the bed with the cat is 10.3MB.
I would really appreciate files that are of a size I can use to print.  Can you please make me files where all the photos are large enough to print the size of a postcard.
Stacy

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Hi Stacy,
I just got back from six days in Toronto and wanted to make sure I answered your email as soon as I got back into the swing of things.

This is the size of photo you requested when we did the first job. You had mentioned you'd only need them for web purposes, so I sized them appropriately.

At this point if you require something, like other photos, or photos of different sizes, I'll have to invoice you for the work.

Best Wishes,
Azriel

------------------------

Azriel
I requested photos from you to use for my portfolio.  In case you happen to forget, you offered to take the photos for free to practice and I insisted on paying you $200.  I bought you sushi for lunch, went out and bought and gave you $20 worth of batteries, gave you champagne and chocolate.  I am trying to start a business and I have waited patiently for you for four months for photos to use for my portfolio.  I hired you a second time and paid you for the 15 min that I was late arriving.  We finished at 3:45 and I graciously paid you until 4pm as well as served you and your friend drinks and smokes.   I gave you a vase and flowers, not to mention I also paid you an extra $50 for your work.  I think I have been more than generous and extremely patient and now you have the audacity to hold my photos ransom and demand more money.  I waited 4 months for you to covert these huge images to 600KB?  I am personally insulted and extremely disappointed that you would treat me this way.  I urge you to reconsider, I have no money to pay you more nor do I feel it is a valid or honest request.  I actually assumed that giving me photos at 600KB was an honest mistake, I am stunned at your request for more money.  I am sorry but I don't agree with you that photos randomly ranging from 600KB to 10.3MB is appropriate sizing.
Stacy 

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The original shoot was on November 20th, not four months and I delivered the product based on our communication.

In our original deal, while we stood in the living room, I asked what size you needed the photos, and explained how big they needed to be for print and web and you said you'd only need them for your website, and I acted as such. If I had done the original job for free I would have in no way given up the digital negatives anyway. I gave them to you a second time as a thank you, knowing it'd make starting your business a little easier. I expressed over coffee it's not what photographer's usually do as they are concerned over copyright issues and to please come to me if you need prints. My wedding photographer charged my wife and I $200 for our digital negatives and I think you`ll find any professional photographer you deal with in the future is going to charge you extra for print quality images sizes.

I do not appreciate you trying to use generosity as currency or leverage. Especially over a matter of $30.

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I am sorry you feel that way.  I guess after I had such a wonderful experience with my sister's photographer I expected more from you.  She mailed me a disk with 74 photos high and low resolution and included a pdf that stated if the printer was concerned that she had released the copyrights to the client (see pdf attached, I also attached the printing instructions she sent).  
I have enough other photos that I don't need anything more from you.  I am sorry for the misunderstanding and I wish you the best of luck with your business.


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## craig (Feb 12, 2010)

Ooops. I guess we can blame it on miscommunication, but I think you acted unprofessionally by not meeting her needs. Professional photographers do not come up with lines like "I guess after I had such a wonderful experience with my sister's photographer I expected more from you" or "it'd". Why are you eating and drinking on the job? No one does that. Also not sure why you would not turnover the rights to her (that is a topic for another day). I believe photographers should deliver what the client wants. That can get a little dodgy in the retail world. In the commercial world it is mandatory.

You will not forget this deal and it will help for future bids, so at least something good came out of it.

Love & Bass


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## Andrew Sun (Feb 12, 2010)

craig said:


> Professional photographers do not come up with lines like "I guess after I had such a wonderful experience with my sister's photographer I expected more from you" or "it'd"


I think Stacy said that in her last email instead of Azriel?...

But sometimes everyone runs into bogus situations where neither side feel it's their fault, don't let it put you down too much Az


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## craig (Feb 12, 2010)

Chalk another one up to miscommunication. Why are only the first three emails labeled by author?

The deal reads like two ships passing in the night. Meaning that they were close but could not see each other. Commercial photography is based on how well you can communicate in the work and on the business side. 

Deals sometimes go south. That is a given. Figuring out how to cover your but takes experience and knowledge. I think that is the point.

Love & Bass


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## Chris Cummins (Feb 13, 2010)

Azriel - My advice is not to be posting private email conversations in a public forum. I just saw several of my photoforum posts show up in my google business listing web pages where anyone can see them. A lot of clients would not appreciate that and they would have a legitimate beef.

Sorry this didn't work out... so perform a postmortem on it and be honest with yourself but not brutal. Maybe have a written agreement next time that way contingencies are laid out and everything is clear? 

In my experience most of the prospective clients out there are just that: prospective. They are not interested in creating win-win situations and will cost you more than you earn. So we have to have a business strategy that is built to cull as many of these folks out as possible while targeting clients who value your professionalism more than its costs.

Learn what you can, have a beer and move on.


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