# Metering mode when shooting in manual?



## jjd228 (Apr 10, 2014)

Can someone correct me if my thinking is wrong please?

When shooting in manual mode it doesn't matter what metering mode you select. The camera will still meter the scene to show you what it thinks, but nothing about the exposure will be changed based on metering mode. So far so good?

But what if you shoot in manual mode with automatic ISO? Then the ISO would be chosen based on the metering, so in fact the metering mode will change the exposure. Yes?

Just trying to get it all straight, thanks!


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## Gavjenks (Apr 10, 2014)

The metering mode will affect where the little indicator tells you you are with your metering, but will not actually change the exposure for you if everything were manual.

If you have auto ISO on, then to the extent possible by changing only ISO within the boundaries you allow, it WILL change the exposure in an attempt to completely achieve the metering that the current mode wants to have, using only ISO as a variable. 

In other words, manual mode with auto ISO essentially just = "aperture+shutter priority mode"


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## KmH (Apr 10, 2014)

If ISO is set to AUTO you are using a semi-manual exposure control scheme regardless the shooting mode being set to M.
Full Manual mode has shutter speed, lens aperture, and ISO under your direct control.

What make/model camera are you using?

The light meter in Nikon DSLRs will be biased when using Manual mode if the user has set + or -  exposure compensation (EC).

Most DSLRs have at least 3 light metering modes:
*Spot* - which samples a small part of the scene in the viewfinder - say 2% to 5% depending on the make/model camera. When using Spot metering mode we will often want to meter several parts of a scene before finalizing our manual settings. Spot mode gives the most accurate metering because it samples such a small area.
*Center-Weighted* - which meters the entire scene but gives more _weight_ to how much light the meter detects in the central 70% or so of the scene. Center-weighted metering is recommended for portraiture.
*Matix* (Nikon)/*Evaluative* (Canon) - which averages all the light in a scene, so at the extremes - highlights are often over exposed and shadows are often under exposed.

Many Canon DSLR camera have a 4th - *Partial* metering which is intended for use with back lit subjects and fits in between Spot and Center-weighted metering.


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 10, 2014)

You got it.


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## shaylou (Apr 11, 2014)

Go outside and try the different modes and you will see that it does effect what the camera see in the exposure. Just switch between modes without adjusting the exposure and compare shots. The different modes can be very useful and is worth spending some time on understanding them.


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## KmH (Apr 11, 2014)

Understanding Camera Metering and Exposure


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## astroNikon (Apr 11, 2014)

Yes, as mentioned go out and experiment

One day last year I was sitting on a river, single focus mode, SPOT metering.

I turned the camera to a drainage runoff pipe protruding from the walls.  Looking at it the pipe inside was dark by my eyes.

With the SPOT metering and single focus point IN the pipe I took a photo.  The photo let me see in the pipe quite clearly,  a great picture of the insides of a pipe.  Everything else outside of the pipe (river, dirt, trees, plants) was waaaaaaaaaay  overexposed from the bright sunlight.

going to centered weighted or matrix it becomes more normal.  And don't focus IN the pipe and everything is normal   LOL

quite an eye opener back then when I was playing with the metering modes to understand them better.


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## Braineack (Apr 11, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> When shooting in manual mode it doesn't matter what metering mode you select. The camera will still meter the scene to show you what it thinks, but nothing about the exposure will be changed based on metering mode. So far so good?


not good so far.  The metering mode matters.

This should be written: The camera will meter the scene, based on the mode selected, but no exposure settings (shutter, aperture, iso) will changed.



> But what if you shoot in manual mode with automatic ISO? Then the ISO would be chosen based on the metering, so in fact the metering mode will change the exposure. Yes?



yes.  The camera will change to ISO, based on it's metering, in relation to your chosen shutter and aperture.


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## Derrel (Apr 11, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> Can someone correct me if my thinking is wrong please?
> 
> When shooting in manual mode it doesn't matter what metering mode you select. The camera will still meter the scene to show you what it thinks, but nothing about the exposure will be changed based on metering mode. So far so good?
> 
> ...



Using "Manual" metering mode and using the matrix/pattern/evaluative metering mode is generally NOT a good operating procedure...it makes almost no sense,actually. Manual mode with Matrix is just...dumb. The use of Matrix/Pattern/Multi-area/Evaluative metering mode takes the whole, entire frame into consideration, and so it really is good for automatic metering modes like Programmed Auto, "Green Box" mode, Aperture-priority auto, etc.

In manual metering mode, most experienced shooters would shoot center-weighted metering, and would swing or aim the camera to an area, and get a meter reading, and meter off of that "area".

Nikon allows the user to determine the size of the center-weighted metering circle; it is user-selectable in the menus of the Nikons I have owned. Some users like SPOT metering in manual mode, but it's very hair-trigger. Meter the WRONG spot, and the exposures can vary wildly, often 5,6,7,8,10 EV from where you might wish to be metering, with just a simple,slight mis-aiming of the spot metering area.  Spot metering also varies somewhat with the camera manufacturer and model; "spot" might be one-degree, or as I recall, 3.8 degrees in Canon (isn't that what many Canons use, 3.8 degree spot?), which some call *semi-spot*; spot metering also might be located under the center AF bracket OR under the AF bracket selected, so SPOT metering really needs to be used carefully,and with full understanding of YOUR camera and how it implements spot metering, and I do NOT think it's a good mode for beginner-level shooters. 

In AUTO modes, like Av,Tv, A,S,P, whatever, spot metering is dangerous in many situations.


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## Gavjenks (Apr 11, 2014)

> Using "Manual" metering mode and using the matrix/pattern/evaluative metering mode is generally NOT a good operating procedure...it makes almost no sense,actually.


It makes fine sense...?

If:
1) I want to capture a certain amoutn of blur or lack thereof (fixed shutter)
2) I want a certain background blur for artistic choice (fixed aperture)
3) I am shooting in slightly varying lighting conditions (slightly cloudy day at the skate park or something, sun going in and out a bit)

Auto-ISO would be enough to cover the variation in sun, and manual would be the only dial mode to use to make it meter automatically without touching my aperture or shutter. I guess maybe program mode would too, but for these purposes, they would perform identically. Neither is more reasonable than the other, if I'm not touching aperture or shutter anyway.

Then, I might want to use evaluative metering, since the skateboarders are flying all over the place, and I might not be able to guarantee centering the focus point precisely where I want it (maybe I did zone focus ahead of time)


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## curtyoungblood (Apr 11, 2014)

From the original post, I feel like you don't have a firm understanding of what a metering mode is, and consequently aren't really asking the right question. You're statements are all accurate, but that aren't really related to each other.

The metering mode (center-weighted, spot, evaluative, etc) only affects how your camera's meter reads the scene it sees. So, if you're camera is in manual exposure mode and you change the metering mode, you're exposure won't change. However, if you look in the viewfinder, you may find that the meter reading is very different. Like-wise, in an automatic mode, the camera reads the meter and adjusts to whatever it says. If you change how the meter reads the scene, then the exposure is going to change, but it is related to the meter's reading and not how it got the reading.


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## TWright33 (Apr 11, 2014)

Just put it in auto.

We all know auto works best anyway.

Carry on.


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 11, 2014)

Derrel said:


> jjd228 said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone correct me if my thinking is wrong please?
> ...



What Derrel said.  Spot metering should only be used for manual.  Well...  not always.  You can use spot metering with semi auto AND exposure lock. I find that method a little complicated though.  A lot of beginners use AV and spot metering (because it was set that way and have no idea). Oh my...  several shots from almost the same angle will have exposure totally different.  The spot meter may hit someone's dark hair, someone's white shirt, etc.   The shots will not be consistent.


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## jjd228 (Apr 12, 2014)

Many of you seem to have not understood the question.

I understand light metering, and how the different modes behave. The question was, simply, when shooting in manual does metering mode even matter (have an effect on the exposure/shot)? And the answer is no. Regardless of what metering mode you select, when shooting in full manual the metering of the scene by your camera has no outcome on the exposure of the shot. In any other mode the metering of the scene is used to determine what settings the camera will choose for shutter speed, aperture, etc. But in manual you are configuring those settings, so metering mode doesn't matter.


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## TheFantasticG (Apr 12, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> Many of you seem to have not understood the question.  I understand light metering, and how the different modes behave. The question was, simply, when shooting in manual does metering mode even matter (have an effect on the exposure/shot)? And the answer is no.



You didn't ask that, you stated that:



jjd228 said:


> When shooting in manual mode it doesn't matter what metering mode you select.



So, from the actual questions in your OP it looks like they did understand.


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## jjd228 (Apr 12, 2014)

TheFantasticG said:


> jjd228 said:
> 
> 
> > Many of you seem to have not understood the question.  I understand light metering, and how the different modes behave. The question was, simply, when shooting in manual does metering mode even matter (have an effect on the exposure/shot)? And the answer is no.
> ...




Actually I said "When shooting in manual mode it doesn't matter what metering mode you select. The camera will still meter the scene to show you what it thinks, but nothing about the exposure will be changed based on metering mode." You forgot the 2nd sentence. And in reading the whole thing, I can't see how that is difficult to understand or would prompt and explanation of the various metering modes. Clearly I wasn't looking for a metering mode tutorial. And since most people got that, I'm gonna go with you didn't understand the question.


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## TheFantasticG (Apr 12, 2014)

You can go with that, but you'll be wrong. That's fine.  But I didn't forget the sentences anymore than you think you're wrong. They weren't applicable so they weren't included. I was merely pointing out you weren't asking in the OP what you were asking later in the thread. You stated it in the OP. What you asked later in the thread is different than what you asked in the OP.


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## curtyoungblood (Apr 12, 2014)

Your description of metering mode's effect on manual exposure is incomplete at best. The metering mode definitely as an in direct relationship to the exposure in manual mode. Saying that it doesn't matter what metering mode you select in manual mode is just wrong. You're going to be using the camera's meter to find a proper exposure (even if you set it yourself), and changing the metering mode will change what the meter reads.


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## snowbear (Apr 12, 2014)

^ this.

No, the camera isn't making any direct changes to exposure, but it is influencing your exposure setting choices due to the variable "zero point."


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## nzmacro (Apr 12, 2014)

From the posts I've read so far, you seem to have a real thing about manual modes.

What the metering tells me I have no interest in. Some technician that does the algorithm and programming in Japan has no idea what so ever what I'm looking at, what I need and what I want exposure wise. Looking at a subject, I do. I have fixed settings I use and know exactly what I can get away with in the software used later on. Where the sun is and what / how that effects aperture, shutter speed and ISO, the guy that programmed it has no idea what is needed for the subjects some of us take.

Auto ISO, man that really leaves a lot to be desired in what it picks quite often. Again, no interest in it. 

So we all use what we want and need. Its the shot that counts and how it got there, well the shot couldn't care less how it got there, it simply exists. So am I wrong, probably, my wife always tells me I am, so I'm used to it, but I do what I do and you may use whatever works for you. 

Danny.


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## unpopular (Apr 13, 2014)

JJD228: Why do you want to shoot manual? This might seem like a silly question, but given some of your replies I think it's important. The way that the metering modes work influence their appropriateness for manual photography (see Derrel's excellent post).

In practice, there really isn't any specific advantage to shooting manual. I shoot manual because I always have, and also because I use a lot of manual lenses that lack aperture coupling. It's simply what I'm comfortable with.

I often do recommend that novice photographers use manual mode to slow down and look at exposure, composition and subject in a holistic way and to appreciate camera control on an intuitive level. Another advantage is that understanding manual will help you understand AE, and appreciate what exactly AE is doing in the different modes.

However, by virtue of shooting manual alone will not make you a better photographer, neither technically nor artistically. Understanding how the meter works is the first step to understanding manual mode. Auto exposure is not magical.

Now that said, I shot exclusively in spot mode, both in AE and in Manual. It offers me a level of precision and control that other modes do not, and my subjet matter being stationary allows me the time to work slowly. Literally the only difference between manual mode and auto mode is what dial I turn. In manual mode I might change any of all three camera controls available, aperture, time and (lastly) ISO. In auto mode, the camera does this for me depending on the mode selected by changing the compensation dial. But again, it does not matter one whit if I'm in manual or auto mode: they're doing the same thing. Strictly speaking exposure, if I point my meter at the same object in the same meter mode, I will get the same results no matter if it's set to AE or M. In other words, any given meter will respond exactly the same regardless if the exposure is set to manual.


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## pgriz (Apr 13, 2014)

The metering mode tells the camera what portion of the full image area to use for evaluating the exposure.  Matrix/evaluative looks at the whole frame.  Center-weighted average uses about 60% of the frame near the middle.  Spot-meter uses about 10% of the image.  If your spot is pointed at a dark part of the scene (as in AstroNikon's example), then the meter will expose the dark part as needing to be 18% grey, and will overexpose the lighter parts.  I use that mode as a probe to build up a sense of the dynamic range of the scene, and then pick an exposure that maximizes the amount of detail I record in the areas I care about.


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

manual
 matrix 
auto iso 
af cont
 ch shutter


call it a day


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

matrix is the best thing since sliced bread


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## unpopular (Apr 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> matrix is the best thing since sliced bread



If you're into that generic look, I suppose.

Really, the debate over manual or auto is a non-issue. auto mode isn't soem magical thing. it's not artificial intelligence  it's not making "decisions". If more people understood exposure in general, they'd realize this, and they'd realize how silly and redundant it is to use matrix/evaluative in manual mode. 

A much more valid debate is between metering modes. Matrix/evaluative really does limit control in exchange for speed. There is nothing wrong with this for situations where exposures can be taken quickly and relatively accurately is more valued than artistic control over rendering. 

In many, many forms of photography this is highly desirable. If you're photographing an outdoor sporting event, you're not going to want to be fideling with spot metering in manual mode to "best represent" what zone the player's skin tone should be relative to the background. That's just silly. Sports photography is about sports, it's about the moment of action, it's not so much about the skin tone of the player.

But likewise in many other cases, such as landscape photography these concerns are much more important than speed and exposing at a decisive moment.


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## Derrel (Apr 17, 2014)

Posts #22 and #25 make a dangerously high amount of actual sense to me.

As to the idea that the metering mode makes "no difference" in what settings the camera will say are correct: I call B.S. on that on its face. Here's a little test: Take your camera out on a nice, bright, sunny day, and set the metering mode to SPOT metering, and shoot 100 frames in Aperture Priority AUTO mode...Av mode, as Canon calls it. Then, switch to Matrix/Evaluative mode, and shoot 100 shots in Aperture Priority AUTO mode, AKA "Av" mode in Canon-speak.

Chances are very high that the *spot metering* metering style *used in auto mode* will *look like crap* on 25 to 30 percent of the frames, whereas the Matrix shots made in AUTO mode will look "decent".


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 17, 2014)

What derrel said.  The only time you should use spot metering is for manual.  You can use it for semi auto but you need to be using AE lock.  I personally do not use spot metering even with manual setting.  

Now that I am talking about this, I think I should start using manual with spot metering.  The reason I dont is because I switch to AV a lot during weddings.  I should probably start programming my C1, C2, C3 so that C1 will go to manual & spot, C2 AV and matrix, C3 TV with matrix.


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## AlanKlein (Apr 17, 2014)

> and they'd realize how silly and redundant it is to use matrix/evaluative in manual mode.




It's not silly.  If you plan on shooting a few shots in the same area under the same lighting conditions, you can use matrix/evaluative to determine the best exposure and then set your exposure once.  Then forget about exposure and shoot a bunch a shots as long as the lighting doesn't change.


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## jjd228 (Apr 18, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Posts #22 and #25 make a dangerously high amount of actual sense to me.
> 
> As to the idea that the metering mode makes "no difference" in what settings the camera will say are correct: I call B.S. on that on its face. Here's a little test: Take your camera out on a nice, bright, sunny day, and set the metering mode to SPOT metering, and shoot 100 frames in Aperture Priority AUTO mode...Av mode, as Canon calls it. Then, switch to Matrix/Evaluative mode, and shoot 100 shots in Aperture Priority AUTO mode, AKA "Av" mode in Canon-speak.
> 
> Chances are very high that the *spot metering* metering style *used in auto mode* will *look like crap* on 25 to 30 percent of the frames, whereas the Matrix shots made in AUTO mode will look "decent".




I have no idea how or why this thread was turned into a "what metering mode is best" discussion. I was simply asking if the very act of choosing a metering mode made a difference when shooting in "full" manual mode. By full manual mode I mean manual mode where you manually select an ISO value as opposed to leaving ISO on auto. The distinction is important because if you shoot in manual but leave ISO on auto, then different metering modes WILL affect the final exposure of your shot because the ISO value will be chosen based on the metering. However if you shoot in FULL manual mode, then metering mode has zero outcome on the exposure of your shot. Yes, the meter indicator WILL change based on the metering mode you choose, but that's just the camera showing you what it thinks is the proper exposure in that metering mode. But no exposure changes will be made because you are manually choosing them all. I hope I cleared up my intent


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## Braineack (Apr 18, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> The distinction is important because if you shoot in manual but leave ISO on auto, then different metering modes WILL affect the final exposure of your shot because the ISO value will be chosen based on the metering. However if you shoot in FULL manual mode, then metering mode has zero outcome on the exposure of your shot. Yes, the meter indicator WILL change based on the metering mode you choose, but that's just the camera showing you what it thinks is the proper exposure in that metering mode. But no exposure changes will be made because you are manually choosing them all. I hope I cleared up my intent



In Manual Mode, if the camera is changing the ISO, then the "exposure" _*is*_ changing.  And the metering mode matters, because the camera will change the ISO based on how it meters, be it spot or matrix.

In Manual Mode, if the camera is not changing the ISO, then the exposure _*is not*_ changing. However, the metering mode still matters because the user might change the exposure based on how the camera meters, be it spot or matrix.

I pretty much said this in post #8 to directly address this.


Imagine you're about to take a shot at 100iso:

If you set your camera to Aperture priority and want to shoot at f/5.6, _the camera_ will change the shutter speed based on the metering mode selected.

If you set your camera to Manual, and want to shoot at f/5.6, _you will_ change the shutter speed based on the metering mode selected.

Both modes, in this case, will end up with the exact same exposure.


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## jjd228 (Apr 18, 2014)

Braineack said:


> jjd228 said:
> 
> 
> > The distinction is important because if you shoot in manual but leave ISO on auto, then different metering modes WILL affect the final exposure of your shot because the ISO value will be chosen based on the metering. However if you shoot in FULL manual mode, then metering mode has zero outcome on the exposure of your shot. Yes, the meter indicator WILL change based on the metering mode you choose, but that's just the camera showing you what it thinks is the proper exposure in that metering mode. But no exposure changes will be made because you are manually choosing them all. I hope I cleared up my intent
> ...



Yes, that is exactly what I just said: "if you shoot in manual but leave ISO on auto, then different metering modes WILL affect the final exposure"


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## Braineack (Apr 18, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > jjd228 said:
> ...



refresh my reply, i made a large edit.


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## jjd228 (Apr 18, 2014)

Braineack said:


> jjd228 said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



I'm just glad i got it right


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## Gavjenks (Apr 18, 2014)

jjd228 said:


> Many of you seem to have not understood the question.
> 
> I understand light metering, and how the different modes behave. The question was, simply, when shooting in manual does metering mode even matter (have an effect on the exposure/shot)? And the answer is no. Regardless of what metering mode you select, when shooting in full manual the metering of the scene by your camera has no outcome on the exposure of the shot. In any other mode the metering of the scene is used to determine what settings the camera will choose for shutter speed, aperture, etc. But in manual you are configuring those settings, so metering mode doesn't matter.



No, the answer is "Yes."  If you have auto-ISO enabled, and you switch around between different metering modes, you will get different exposures.

Some people in the thread were questioning why you would want to DO that. But IF you were to, you would get different exposures in a typical complex scene.



Also, this is something for future reference that could be trivially tested at home. Not sure why you wanted to wait for responses on a forum. Just point directly toward your living room ceiling light in manual iso-auto, and switch between spot meter and evaluative metering, and see if there's a difference.


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## jjd228 (Apr 18, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> jjd228 said:
> 
> 
> > Many of you seem to have not understood the question.
> ...



I know, read the latest posts.


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## unpopular (Apr 18, 2014)

AlanKlein said:


> It's not silly.  If you plan on shooting a few shots in the same area under the same lighting conditions, you can use matrix/evaluative to determine the best exposure and then set your exposure once.  Then forget about exposure and shoot a bunch a shots as long as the lighting doesn't change.



Ok, ok. Sure. But at that point you're doing the same thing as in auto mode with AEL.

And why are you emphasizing "once"? If the light doesn't change then there's no need to change exposure no matter what mode you're using.

Usually when I go out shooting, I also don't change my exposure much. I spot meter some reference under "typical" light, compensate, set and forget until the exposure changes. There's nothing about matrix/evaluative nor manual mode that would promote this. Evaluative metering is nice because you don't have to compensate, on the flip side though you're giving up that level of control. Sometimes this is an appropriate tradeoff, sometimes it isn't.



Derrel said:


> Chances are very high that the *spot metering* metering style *used in auto mode* will *look like crap* on 25 to 30 percent of the frames, whereas the Matrix shots made in AUTO mode will look "decent".



Only if you do not compensate the exposure. The same though is true of manual mode in spot. Of course, if the exposure reference always changes then there isn't much advantage to auto mode.

AE can be sometimes useful with spot when you preset the EC to some specific reference. If I know I'm going to be referencing the brightest part of the clouds (which i do often) I will compensate to +2.3-2.6ev. If I am referencing the sidewalk I will preset EC to +1.6-2.0ev. 

In practice, I always forget to take the EC off and then wonder why the hell my camera isn't metering properly. So it's just easier to set the EC to zero and adjust compensation manually.


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