# Low End Gear with Clients



## fooby (Jun 23, 2014)

As somebody looking to break into the commercial photography business straight out of school, I'm wondering how I can balance professionalism with not having any money to invest in "pro" equipment? I'll try to elaborate... Say a client hires me because of a certain image or style they saw in my portfolio. I know I can re-create that image, but being personal work, I shot it using cheap gear and a pretty ghetto setup. Eg. a speedlite on a flimsy stand with a ghetto softbox vs a monolight with a proper softbox.

Will they accept that I can get the job done, or just see me as unprofessional? It seems counter productive to find a start-up loan (we do have some great options here in the UK compared to the USA) to get the same shots I have taken with cheap equipment. Although, I could also charge considerably more to cover the cost of the expensive gear, and be able to demonstrate to the client that I have invested in my business and so they can invest in me.

Are loans a safe investment for a more professional and more reliable business?


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## ShaneF (Jun 23, 2014)

If you can reproduce what they saw and deliver what they want with the gear you have i don't see a problem.  They hired you on a photo you took not a photo of the gear you have. Upgrade and expand your equipment as money allows you to or as a need for it become necessary..


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## robbins.photo (Jun 23, 2014)

I guess a lot of it would depend on the client and their level of knowledge.  If your dealing with your average Joe off the street - Then go out and plunk down $100 bucks or less on the oldest non functional DSLR you can find and the biggest most impressive zoom lens, also non-functional you can get and hang that around your neck.  It's not for shooting, just for show.  Trust me, when I'm walking around the zoo with a pair of D5200's and one of them is sporting a 70-200 mm F2.8, well the vast majority of the people who stop me ask me if I'm a professional photographer.

They just assume that I must be or I wouldn't be wandering around with a monster zoom lens, or two cameras.  So as long as your dealing with clients who are not photographers or knowledgeable about photographry/cameras honestly your gear won't mean squat, as long as you get the images they want.  If you feel like you really need to put on an impressive gear display, like I said, find something like D40/D50 in non working condition and find the biggest looking but cheapest zoom lens with some gold lettering on it or maybe a gold ring, also non wokring, and throw that over one shoulder.  You never have to actually use it, it's just for show.  Trust me, everyone will be wowed by your "professional gear".  Well until you run across somebody who knows squat about cameras - but until then your gold.


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## DanielPhotog (Jun 23, 2014)

If you can get good results, and be open with the client, then go for it. If they don't dig the results, offer another shoot as part of the package in a more ideal setting. The disadvantage of using macgyver type gear is that it is generally less aesthetically professional to the client with respect to the look of the setup. The cost of using cheap gear is being open to the client's suggestions and charging cheap to get more clientele and afford better gear.

I recently started doing video to get a few quick bucks, and I found that home depot clamp on work light with a warm 200 watt incandescent and an extension cord solves 90% of my light issues and lets me shoot at low iso for live musicians and dj's who want promotional video at parties. Two of these clamp ons and an extension cord will get you some solid light for very very cheap, even a kit lens can take care of business at a night shoot this way.

Go for it, be open with your clients, and focus on generating positive hearsay  by catering to their demands using the budget tools. As long as your price point is right and the results are pro, go make some cash.


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## pgriz (Jun 23, 2014)

If the clients aren't going to be in the room with you while you shoot, then your finished product will be what they make their acceptance on.


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## Overread (Jun 23, 2014)

My view is this:

1) You advertise your work that you are capable of producing and a client decides to hire you because of that portfolio. Thus so long as your equipment allows you to reproduce the same level of quality then it really doesn't matter if you're using top of the line medium format cameras or entry level. The key is that you've advertised and then produced a product that the client hired you for. 

2) There are limits, if a client pays a significant amount of money and turns up to find that your setup is cheap cardboard boxes taped together (Badly) then chances are they might well question your capacity to produce what you've advertised and EVEN if you do produce the same quality the chances are they might perceive more problems than otherwise (these might be problems with the original portfolio as displayed, but that won't matter to them all they'll know is that they are problems with the product you've made for them). 

3) Remember that even taking the above into account you want to ensure that when you put your name to a professional company and standard you want to set a good standard. Many people understand points one and two, but they also produce a low quality product which can harm them significantly as they gain new skills and want to advance up the ladder because the marketed public already knows of their earlier lower quality.


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## Derrel (Jun 23, 2014)

Buy some made-in-China light modifiers from eBay. Most all of them are direct, unlicensed, rip-offs of patented, high-dollar modifiers made by companies located in Europe, the UK, and the USA. Get a compendium lens hood for your camera, and a big, black tripod. Grow a Vandyke or goatee. Obtain and always wear some small-framed eyeglasses. Cultivate an air of artistry. Market yourself as an ARTIST, and not as "a photographer".

I am serious about all of those things, except one.


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## fooby (Jun 23, 2014)

Thank you for the responses,

My main worry would be consistency. When shooting personal work you have time to deal with any issues your cheap equipment might run into and wait for the perfect conditions. For a client, you've got to be able to produce that shot whatever the conditions and timely, not only if everything goes perfectly. To use Chase Jarvis' pro golfer metaphor: "A pro doesn't shank the ball into the trees, it just doesn't happen, you have to be able to hit it down the middle every time or you'll won't be coming back."


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## KmH (Jun 23, 2014)

Clients usually have little if any knowledge about photography gear.

Starting a business by taking out loans is a really bad idea.


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## Derrel (Jun 23, 2014)

I would worry less about my gear than I would worry about how my images look, and about how proficient I was. You mentioned consistency in relation or in regard to cheap equipment; I do not think that the equipment is really the issue. The cheapest equipment available today is better than most of what was available in the 1960's at high, pro-type prices. Consistency does not come from high-end gear; on the contrary, *consistency comes from proficiency and familiarity with what you DO have, not what you see in sales brochures.*

Let me give you an example: a lot of people think they want or need high-end flash gear, with 1/10 stop control over flash output, and radio-remote power setting ability of flash power. Nowadays, Profoto is playing into the hands of people who think that way by offering the world's FIRST-ever TTL studio-type monolight flashes...for people who cannot figure out the right exposure on their own...they think that they can let "the camera decide" on what the right flash output level is, from shot to shot to shot.

You want 1/10 stop flash control? Move the light stand forward or back two inches. There's your 1/10 stop.That was good enough for decades. You want to adjust the flash 3/10 stop? OMG--learn how to estimate 6 to 8 inches of light stand movement! Does one need a wireless remote to make each and every flash power adjustment, or can one use his right them and index finger to go click-click-click? You need a 3 to 1 lighting ratio? Set the main up at 5.6 feet, and the fill at 8 feet. Same power. OMG...those crazy distances actually mean something--they are not just for f/stops!

If you want to learn how to produce images on-demand, or on-command, *learn more about the nuts and bolts of real photography*. I mean that seriously, with no intent to offend, with no malice, and with total sincerity. It's not the gear...."it's the guy". (or "the gal"). It's not the lens specs, it's the brain cells. Look at the older-line brands of professional lighting gear, like Speedotron, Bowens, Elinchrom. You do NOT NEED ANY of the high-tech features, like radio-powwer adjustment and 1/10 f/stop output control. You just need 4 or 5 good lights and some knowledge. A camera, a spare camera, and four lenses.


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## fooby (Jun 23, 2014)

Derrel said:


> If you want to learn how to produce images on-demand, or on-command, *learn more about the nuts and bolts of real photography*. I mean that seriously, with no intent to offend, with no malice, and with total sincerity. It's not the gear...."it's the guy". (or "the gal"). It's not the lens specs, it's the brain cells. Look at the older-line brands of professional lighting gear, like Speedotron, Bowens, Elinchrom. You do NOT NEED ANY of the high-tech features, like radio-powwer adjustment and 1/10 f/stop output control. You just need 4 or 5 good lights and some knowledge. A camera, a spare camera, and four lenses.


I'm not talking about investing in the gimmicky super-pro equipment, I honestly believe that I could get by just fine with two reliable lights, an octabox, radio triggers, two lenses, two bodies, a solid backup system and a couple of sturdy light stands for 99% of time. I honestly see no value in fancy things, but that is still a lot of money if your portfolio is based on using manual Yongnuo speedlites and mostly borrowed glass. I'm very aware that the likes of £1500 is absolutely nothing in photography, that's three or four commercial jobs, but for a new zero capital start-up, it's seems like an awful lot. Sure I could get a normal job for a while, but I would barely be covering my living costs. Surely this kind of thing is exactly what government funded start-up loans are for?

I would love some opinions on shooting at a lower cost as somebody who's DCODB is much lower than others. I don't want to de-value myself and the business, but I don't want to charge a client the same whether I use reliable more expensive equipment or whether I use budget ghetto stuff.


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## Derrel (Jun 23, 2014)

If you want to get into commercial photography "straight out of school", which I take to mean "university", well,it's probably going to be rice and beans for dinner for a while. You will need a business plan, and some capital. You can rent things that are needed on an as-needed basis, but yes, being under-capitalized is never a good idea. I see this post as a huge chicken and egg post. Maybe you can ask KmH for some links to some books that will make the whole business/marketing/advertising/financial planning world clearer in your mind.

I got one "vibe" from your initial post, and now a second, different one. Perhaps you can find a niche where you can compete. You need a niche, and a competitive advantage these days. "Commercial photography" means something to me; perhaps we have differing ideas of what "commercial photography" means and what kind of skill sets go along with that field. I cannot imagine a two-light setup being adequate for much of any commercial shooting. I guess maybe you could start off small. Not all commercial photo jobs are big ones,and it seems that you realize that you're under-capitalized, and are also unsure of what to do. I wish you luck!


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## fooby (Jun 23, 2014)

Derrel said:


> If you want to get into commercial photography "straight out of school", which I take to mean "university", well,it's probably going to be rice and beans for dinner for a while. You will need a business plan, and some capital. You can rent things that are needed on an as-needed basis, but yes, being under-capitalized is never a good idea. I see this post as a huge chicken and egg post. Maybe you can ask KmH for some links to some books that will make the whole business/marketing/advertising/financial planning world clearer in your mind.
> 
> I got one "vibe" from your initial post, and now a second, different one. Perhaps you can find a niche where you can compete. You need a niche, and a competitive advantage these days. "Commercial photography" means something to me; perhaps we have differing ideas of what "commercial photography" means and what kind of skill sets go along with that field. I cannot imagine a two-light setup being adequate for much of any commercial shooting. I guess maybe you could start off small. Not all commercial photo jobs are big ones,and it seems that you realize that you're under-capitalized, and are also unsure of what to do. I wish you luck!


I'm entirely self taught, but yes, essentially. I have studied photography for long enough that I feel confident in my abilities to produce exactly what I have in my head and do the same for a client as well as run a sound business. My niche is doing adventure photography but usually staged and lit to my vision as against documenting what's happening. Tim Kemple's style is probably the closest to what I do, if only as well!


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 23, 2014)

If you are confident that you can produce the images consistently every time with the gear you have, then just do it.  You don't have to use the best gear to be the best at what you do.  In many cases I've been around professionals that are using the best gear, but what they produce could quite as easily been done with entry level gear. They show up with more equipment than they will ever use, create the illusion that they are going to shoot an images that only they can do.  It's the dog and pony, smoke and mirror approach to shooting.  Clients buy into it and the photographer can justify charging huge amounts.

As I said, if you are confident in your skills and abilities to give off this confidence to the client, then you're already ahead.

As many on this forum already know me and I have said this before. I've shot professional sports using a Canon t2i and produced images better images than other photographers using the top of the line Canon gear.  My clients didn't know the difference, and they never asked.  It didn't matter to them, only that they got what they wanted.


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## tirediron (Jun 23, 2014)

Clients pay for results.


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## gsgary (Jun 24, 2014)

You don't have to pay a fortune for good gear i have got some of these lights and in tests they have beaten top makes Safari Portable Flash System | Lencarta

[url]http://www.lencarta.com/studio-lighting-shopfront/atom-barebulb-portable-flash
[/URL]


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## Derrel (Jun 24, 2014)

Adventure photography was not at ALL what I was thinking when you wrote "commercial photography". Not at all. Stay fit and trim and outdoorsy and cultivate a list of good-looking similar men and women friends and associates, and there's a competitive advantage that older shooters might not have so clearly. Those portable strobes gsgary mentioned--I've seen a lot of reviews on those....look to be a nice piece of kit to me, I could REALLY, really,really have used one,or two of those this weekend, but I seldom need portability AND power a mile from the car, but I did this weekend....


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## JoeW (Jun 25, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Buy some made-in-China light modifiers from eBay. Most all of them are direct, unlicensed, rip-offs of patented, high-dollar modifiers made by companies located in Europe, the UK, and the USA. Get a compendium lens hood for your camera, and a big, black tripod. Grow a Vandyke or goatee. Obtain and always wear some small-framed eyeglasses. Cultivate an air of artistry. Market yourself as an ARTIST, and not as "a photographer".
> 
> I am serious about all of those things, except one.



Damnit Darrel, you forgot "wear black"...all serious artistes wear only black.

Okay, to answer the OP directly...if you're working as a sub or contractor to someone else who has the business, then it won't matter.  Example:  you get hired by an ad agency b/c they like your work.  They pick up a gig with say a client in the UK.  The client deals with the creative team in the ad agency or the graphics firm.  You deal with the project manager or team lead for the ad agency or graphics firm.  Client never sees you (except possibly for an initial kickoff meeting or a launch celebration).  Your gear makes no difference then b/c the people that directly hire you (the ad agency or graphics firm) know you and trust you, keep you out of sight from the client, and only bring you out when it's time to celebrate or to do your magic.

When you're dealing with the client directly, of course the impression you create (cheap DIY equipment, 40 pounds overweight, no attention to personal hygiene) can have an impact on the client.  As photographers we think it's our portfolio that is going to have the most impact on the client.  I think that's true only for a few clients.  I think for most, it's reputation.  If you have a string of previous clients who all say to the current client "Fooby rocks--he performs like nobody's business--we hire him all the time" then there is very little attention paid to you showing up in a stained T-shirt with DIY gear.

The other issue that serious photographers always battle is the uninformed, unwashed opinion of the masses that our work is all the result of our camera.  I've known some people who could generate outstanding work (like weddings and product photography) using an iPhone.  But if they showed up for a commercial shoot with that, the reaction by most clients would be "what am I paying good money for--I could do this shoot myself!"  So even if some of your gear is DIY, it helps to show up with something that the client looks at and goes "what the heck is that?"


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## ISO (Jun 25, 2014)

I've shot some pretty important shoots with a beauty dish I made myself, results were what they wanted and better than they expected so they were happy.


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## fooby (Jun 25, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Adventure photography was not at ALL what I was thinking when you wrote "commercial photography". Not at all. Stay fit and trim and outdoorsy and cultivate a list of good-looking similar men and women friends and associates, and there's a competitive advantage that older shooters might not have so clearly. Those portable strobes gsgary mentioned--I've seen a lot of reviews on those....look to be a nice piece of kit to me, I could REALLY, really,really have used one,or two of those this weekend, but I seldom need portability AND power a mile from the car, but I did this weekend....


It's definitely not the most common form of commercial photography, but it's still primarily shooting for commercial clients. The models and physical effort are quite different though!

Those portable strobes definitely offer an interesting mid-point, but personally I really like using big modifiers for nice wrapping light. I'm not the type for the common harsh, fake looks that a lot of sports photographers go for - especially in portraits, so I'd like the option to use large octabanks and shoot in mid-day sun if needed. I'm off to Chamonix to do a test shoot for a client in a couple of weeks so I'll have a good opportunity to find out what works 

As I'm on a tight startup budget, I've been considering the Calumet Genesis strobes. Has anybody had any experiences with them? I know 500w is less than ideal for mid-day shooting in bright sun, but it's sure as hell a lot better than using speedlites.



JoeW said:


> When you're dealing with the client directly, of  course the impression you create (cheap DIY equipment, 40 pounds  overweight, no attention to personal hygiene) can have an impact on the  client.  As photographers we think it's our portfolio that is going to  have the most impact on the client.  I think that's true only for a few  clients.  I think for most, it's reputation.  If you have a string of  previous clients who all say to the current client "Fooby rocks--he  performs like nobody's business--we hire him all the time" then there is  very little attention paid to you showing up in a stained T-shirt with  DIY gear.



This is exactly what I was worried about. First impressions are so important when you don't have any clients yet. Luckily, it looks like I'm going to at least be able to get a couple of strobes and modifiers in the near future, so my main issue - ghetto light setups with questionable consistancy - will be sorted.


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## jacquelynecullen (Jun 29, 2014)

I watched a 3day workshop by Amanda Diaz on creative live this past month and it was all about DIY photography.  She's doing QUITE well for herself and even to this day often budgets only $100 for editorial shoots.  It was really inspiring to watch her.  As she said in the workshop, people don't hire you for your gear, they hire you for the outcome you can produce.  If you can make them an amazing image, no one is going to care what tools you used to get there.  Another point I'd even go further into mentioning is that clients rarely know anything about photography. We often have to educate them on what makes a photo or product worthy, so it's pretty doubtful they'd know the difference between a continuous lit softbox or a strobed beauty dish, a Yunguo speedlight vs a Nikon SB900, or any other details we as photographers like to compare each other with at times.  End of the day, how do _you_ feel about your ability to create a "wow" image?  If you can do it / have done it with your current gear, then keep at it.  

A recent client of mine summed it up perfectly.  She was raving over her son's session, and I have a hard time accepting such praise gracefully, so in an effort to tone down her accolades I said, "Well, the technology nowadays makes things so much easier for us to get amazing images," and she replied, "Nonsense.  I always say, you can give me the best oven in the world and the best cake recipe, but I'm no baker, and it doesn't mean I can make a cake."


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## chuasam (Aug 4, 2014)

Rent. and put it down as a line item on your invoice.


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## DevC (Aug 7, 2014)

the only place i've really seen clients/others worry about your gear is model mayhem.


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## CCericola (Aug 7, 2014)

Just rent what you need. Add it into the price. Done. It's so common in commercial work whether you have been in the business 1 year or 20 years. If you want you own equipment then take out a loan or save up. With commercial work, each project is different. If you aren't renting a special lens you are renting props and costumes, etc... It never stops.


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## MOREGONE (Aug 7, 2014)

I'll assume you a pricing your work accordingly. I don't believe you are going to be getting the same rates as seasoned pros so if I am the client I should not expect the same gear.

I do see you mentioned concerns about consistency. Yes that is very important. But what is also important is confidence on the day of the shoot. If you have doubts about your gear then you may not have your full attention to the details. So unless you need all the photography income to eat and survive, I would reinvest all that you can from your photography back into gear. I don't support loans for this because we're not talking about opening a restaurant and more so than ever, decent gear can be had at a low price (compared to historically). 

When you are signing clients at higher wages you may have a budget to rent gear as well. I have been on single day shoots where the budget was $1500 for rentals. Just for rentals. Oh how I would love to make that for a day shoot. The budgets are out there and you will get there, but it is not going to happen all at once. Find the right trajectory and you will amass your gear, client list, and skills appropriately.


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