# Time to pop my cherry



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

So I have been invited to be 2nd shooter at a wedding this Saturday.  Last minute but the 2nd they had proved to be a tool apparently, so when they (Classic Photography) asked a local photog we deal with at work if he knew of a good second, he recommended me. 

Great opportunity for me to learn and experience the flow of a wedding without the stress of being 1st shoot, which I know I am nowhere near ready for.

So, given that I have a day and a half to mentally prepare, and I respect much of the advice given here, I open this thread up to those who would generally like to see me do well to give thoughts and opinions and tips and tricks to help me have a successful first time out.

Thanks in advance.

Ernie


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 26, 2012)

Get the candid shots the main photog doesnt have time to get. Get the formal shots from different angels than the main. Most importantly, get the shots the main tells you to get.  And have fun.


----------



## MK3Brent (Jul 26, 2012)

Stay out of #1's way. 

Stay late and do special photo shots with the bride and groom, practice ideas you  have... No matter how tired they are, they'll want to participate, I promise.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> do special photo shots with the bride and groom,



Like what?

I know the basics as far as ediquette from a photog colleague who does weddings, and he has given me the things he likes to see and not see from his 2nd's.  Each one is a bit different though.  I will find out tomorrow more when I get the outline delivered to me, I believe this photog likes the 2nd to spend time with the groom and groomsmen for sure, so I'll have that set for certain.  I'll get a bit of time with bride and ladies when preparing.  The rest I believe I'll just be able to bounce around and do what I want.  Obviously with any other shots the main is looking for me to get.


----------



## manaheim (Jul 26, 2012)

From being a second shooter a lot and from comments here, I can tell you what I think I've learned...


When you're a secondary you are as much an assistant as another camera. Be mindful of what the primary may need and try to help without being asked, but always be available.
Don't even hold your camera to your face during formals if you're anywhere near the primary.  The folks won't know which photographer to look at and it causes confusion.
Watch your shutter speed... when in the church it's often low-light and people moving.  You sorta forget that 1/60th of a second isn't that great when someone is walking right at you (or away from you)
When the main photographer has the attention of your subjects, try to get shots that he's not getting.  Candids of folks waiting to be shot, or interesting angles on the same shots.
Personally, I like grabbing details of the environment... I'm still not sure if anyone cares about this stuff, but I think it lends to the memories later on down the road and I've had at least one bride say she appreciated it without being prompted.
Don't bounce flash in people's faces if you can avoid it.  Go off ceilings and walls.  If you have HIGH ceilings, set the ISO up a bit higher (800 or so) as it helps to ease the burden on your flash.
USE YOUR TUPPERWARE DIFFUSER... or a bounce card.  You want to get the highlights in their eyes and you want to avoid racoon eyes.
If you don't have an external batt for the flash, be sure to bring lithiums.  I think I went through about three sets in one wedding.
Watch the heat on your flash (and on those lithiums)... don't melt it.  Give it a break now and again. ( higher ISO will help this a bit, btw )
Don't be afraid to ask the primary if you see a cool shot if you can take it, but obviously defer to the primary at all times.
Try dragging the shutter when it's dark... camera on manual, flash on, F4, 1/15th or 1/20th of a second.  You want to experiment with this OUTSIDE the wedding before you do it.  This will allow the ambient light to fill into the frame to avoid the background being so dark.  DO NOT DO THIS IF THERE IS DECENT AMBIENT LIGHT.  It will massively blur everything.  Only do it if/when it's pretty dark.

There's tons of other stuff, but those are some good basics.

Good luck!  Very curious to see your results!


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Great info, thanks.  

If I am not mistaken, this church is a "no flash" church.  I'll have my 50 1.4 and my 80-200 2.8 (well not mine but borrowed, lol) so that will help. If all goes well my D90 will be here sat morning, wedding not until 4 so I'll have some time to set it up.


I'm also looking for ideas as far as kinds of shots to look out for when I'm on my own wandering around.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

manaheim said:


> When the main photographer has the attention of your subjects, try to get shots that he's not getting.  Candids of folks waiting to be shot, or interesting angles on the same shots





I like this idea.  One of the ideas I had, if the wedding is set up nice, is to try to get the decor in an interesting light so that it reflects the hard work and detail as well as beauty.  I know a lot of brides spend a lot of time stressing over the details and how things look, yet during the wedding, it's a blur to them so they don't get to really see it and enjoy it.  My thoughts was that I can hopefully help them to enjoy it later if I can show the beauty of their creations.


----------



## manaheim (Jul 26, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Great info, thanks.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, this church is a "no flash" church.  I'll have my 50 1.4 and my 80-200 2.8 (well not mine but borrowed, lol) so that will help. If all goes well my D90 will be here sat morning, wedding not until 4 so I'll have some time to set it up.
> 
> ...



Oh I never use flash in church... should have mentioned that.  I meant afterwards.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

;-)


----------



## PinkDoor (Jul 26, 2012)

When is the big day??? Should we have a special ceremony before hand, throw you in the fire, and see if you REALLY are a ready for a popping?


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> Stay late and do special photo shots with the bride and groom, practice ideas you  have... No matter how tired they are, they'll want to participate, I promise.



Must be a very different culture where you are.  We normally stay until the bride and groom leave so we can capture the exit and send off, so I am not sure how 'staying late and doing shots with the bride and groom' would work out.

And if you are talking about before the exit, we normally do steal the bride and groom for about 5 minutes at the reception, but we already have the lights set up, the shot set up, etc, so that they basically have to step in and then they can get back to their reception.

I can assure you, that no matter how tired they are, the Bride and Groom are NOT going to want to be dragged around by a photographer while they are missing their reception, especially if the photographer is 'practicing his ideas'.

Actually, I am not sure if I have ever seen advice on here that I disagree with more.

In any case, to the OP, you should get a shot list...those must haves.  Make sure you get them.  After that, or in between them, just like was said earlier, look which direction the main is shooting and pick another direction.  Look for the stuff that he isn't getting.

For the first dance, toasts, etc, pay attention to where he is moving and which direction he is shooting.  Pay attention to what lens he is using, also.  Knowing that will help you stay out of his shots and for him to stay out of yours.

Personally, if I were you, I wouldn't shoot anything during the formals unless he asks you to.  I would help with the lights, help with posing/look for undone buttons or jackets that aren't sitting right, etc.  If the shots are outdoors and he doesn't use a sandbag, then your job is easy.  Hold the light stand so it doesn't fall over.

Basically, if you ever want to be invited back, my attitude would be that I was an assistant first, and a second shooter secondary.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for the great response ker, advice taken and in my notes.

This is my first, so obviously I don't know how things work for all of you who do this as a living.  However, based on my understanding, and I will clarify tomorrow, with this management company, the 2nd is not there as assistant first...shooter second.  He/she is there as a shooter.  

This I got from the photog who this company hires a lot.  I don't know if this way of doing business is out of the norm or what.  I guess I'll find out.

Ultimately I am there for the experience, so I will help out the photog any way he wants me to...even if its holding his light stand.

I am being given the shot list, itenerary, and all that jazz tomorrow

The deal here, and something I'm not terribly excited bout, is that the photog hired traditionally has the mentality of "I can do it alone".  Which they don't care for as their contracts with clients states they provide two shooters.  He often comes with excuses at last minute as to why his 2nd either called out or whatever.  So the manager of the company called me to ask me to come, so technically I am working for them...I have yet to speak to or meet the photog as he has not called me to introduce himself or anything of that nature.

Apparently the prior second who called off was a lady who did not want to work with that photog.  :-( 

I am not interested in their politics and I don't expect the photog to have an issue with me, I'll help him out as he wants if he wants it.  I'm there to learn as well as build a rapport with the company.

Rumor has it the photog showed up last time he was hired for a wedding wearing flip flops, shorts, and a big crazy straw hat...even walked around barefoot in the church.  No joke....and he was late. *scratches head*

But, all that crap aside...I am there to learn and hopefully get a few shots for my portfolio.

The photog from my work that recommended me was already booked so he has his own wedding this weekend and his wife usually serves as his second shooter, so she was unavailable...so he is giving me the ins and outs on how the company works and what to expect from the photog chosen for the shoot as well as the company as a whole.  He has been with them for about 12 years and is well respected and utilized so his word is good concerning how they do business.

But anyway, it will be interesting to say the least.

I like the suggestion and idea of being where he is not.  Nothing to do with the above stated, but to be able to get something different as to me...I would think that is the point of having a second shooter.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

PinkDoor said:


> When is the big day??? Should we have a special ceremony before hand, throw you in the fire, and see if you REALLY are a ready for a popping?




Saturday.  You can pray for me I guess.  lol.

I just want to get nice photographs and experience the flow of a wedding.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

Ahh, well, that certainly does shed some light on the situation.  I assumed the first shooter was the owner of his photography business.  I guess I missed the part where there is a company that sub's out the work.

In that case, do whatever the company wants, and it sounds like you have a good relationship with somebody who knows the ins and outs of it.

On a side note, assuming you want to do this professionally at some point, I am not sure if I want want to be associated with a company who hires photographers who show up in flip flops and shorts to a wedding.  90% of our business is referrals...from past clients, past vendors, past officiants, etc.  Getting a bad reputation working with a clown may hurt you in the long run.  Just something to think about.

Good luck with your shoot.


----------



## MK3Brent (Jul 26, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> MK3Brent said:
> 
> 
> > Stay late and do special photo shots with the bride and groom, practice ideas you  have... No matter how tired they are, they'll want to participate, I promise.
> ...


Yeah, the culture here is very family oriented and "southern hospitality." The bride and groom aren't "sent off." They stay till the last person leaves. So I understand it's different for everywhere. In my experience, the bride and groom are extremely happy with quantity with quality of photos. It just must be different here than other places. It's all just suggestions, do what you're going to do. Have fun, and learn as much as you can.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ahh, well, that certainly does shed some light on the situation.  I assumed the first shooter was the owner of his photography business.  I guess I missed the part where there is a company that sub's out the work.
> 
> In that case, do whatever the company wants, and it sounds like you have a good relationship with somebody who knows the ins and outs of it.
> 
> ...



This made me wonder as well.  I have met 3 photogs they use, all who do great work and are very professional.  So my first question was "why do they hire this guy?".  I did not ask the company obviously, lol.  Just to myself.  Word is that the clients have liked his work.  However, professionalism should be first and foremost in my book.

I am not certain I want to be a 1st shooter.  I very much want to be 2nd shooter while I continue to learn the business.  After I go through this summer and fall I will use my experiences as 2nd to decide if it is a route I want to go.

Thanks.


----------



## PinkDoor (Jul 26, 2012)

Have you seen Nemo?  Shark-bait oooo ha ha


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 26, 2012)

have fun, and don't stress too much. Your first time.. expectations are usually low, and if you exceed them, it would be excellent.

good luck!


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > MK3Brent said:
> ...



Thanks for your input.  I take any and all suggestions and advice into my brain and notepad.  Given the situation that arises I then use what advice fits the scenario.  I like to hear all experiences so as to be prepared.  No point re inventing the wheel when there are many of you out here with years of experience I can poll to help me as far as what to expect and what to do.

No one will be 100% accurate, but 100% will be somewhat accurate.  My job is to piece together the advice given with the situation at hand once in the midst of it.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

PinkDoor said:


> Have you seen Nemo?  Shark-bait oooo ha ha



lol, that's the first thing I said to the buddy photog, his name is noel so I can quit saying photog.  I said "noel...what the hell are you getting me into here for my first time out" (my initial plan was to go with him on hiw wedding in 3 weeks as my first time out, but this just kinda came up today unexpectedly and he put my name in).  His response was, "I just wanted you to know what to expect when you get there....you'll be fine...you're a smart guy and can fake it well enough so that no one will know you're new, and you do good work anyway, so don't worry and have fun"

lolz


----------



## MK3Brent (Jul 26, 2012)

Watch your ISO also when transitioning from outside to inside... if it's going to be a outdoor/indoor thing. Most I've been to are.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> have fun, and don't stress too much. Your first time.. expectations are usually low, and if you exceed them, it would be excellent.
> 
> good luck!



It's in my nature to overthink.   So tomorrow will suck for my brain.  However, once I get there and step out of my car...game time, a switch will flip and all will go away and I'll be fine.  Product of the Marines.

My true hope, if I am being honest, is that I come out of this exceeding my own expectations.  For the past 6 months I have told myself what kind of photographer I don't want to be,  I am proud to say I have not taken jobs for the sake of taking jobs, not promoted myself as a photog in any way shape or fashion, and have gained the respect of not only my workplace but other photogs as well...so now I'd like to be able to show the kind of photographer I do want to be.

and if I fail...so be it.  lol.  it happens and I'll learn from it.  

Reminds me of my first time shooting....everyone stressed out over it, get scope bit, miss target, etc.  I was a wreck all day.  Raised my rifle and hit bulls first time out, all 3 shots within a quarter spread at 100 yards.  I expect the same from me now.  Time will tell.  lol.

Regardless, I am going to have fun.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> Watch your ISO also when transitioning from outside to inside... if it's going to be a outdoor/indoor thing. Most I've been to are.



I am not comfortable raising my iso, to the point where I hate doing so...and when I do, I forget to lower it again.  So this is definitely a thing on my list.  I have been careless before and totally blew shots forgetting I had it jacked to 1600.  

The 3100, although advertised, does not do that well at the high ISO, to me...there is way too much noise.  Hopefully my D90 will be in sat morning and it will better handle higher iso.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > MK3Brent said:
> ...



Yes, it certainly sounds much different.  The weddings here normally end around 11 or 12 and it is when the venue closes.  Normally, about half the guests are still there.  The guests will go outside with their bubbles or sparklers or whatever and the bride and groom will do a last dance by themselves.  Then they exit, go to their limo and drive off.  The guests depart afterwards.

Between the getting ready, the photos, the ceremony, the formals, the entrance to the reception, the first dance, father daughter dance, mother son dance, cake cutting, etc, etc, I have found that most Brides and Grooms by about 9 p.m. or so feel like they have been herded about all day.  Like I said, we do try to steal them away for a shot or two that we already have set up, but many times, the B&G just want to relax, enjoy their time with their friends and family, or dance, so it is difficult for us to ask them to leave their ceremony for more than 5-10 minutes.

On some shots where the B&G have a specific shot that they want that takes a bit longer, we, and they, have noticed that several of their guests have departed during their absense.

As always for wedding photography, no two of them are the same and you always kind of have to play it by ear.  Sometimes the B&G are so tired they don't want to do anything.  Sometimes they are the ones coming up with ideas.  It all just depends.

It's probably what makes wedding photography so difficult.  There aren't any hard and fast rules and we don't get to control how it plays itself out.  We just have to adapt to what is happening.

Now, one other side note, depending on the reception venue, it might not be a bad idea to ask if you can get roof access for a few shots.  I would say we are about 50/50 on them saying yes, and sometimes, it can make a really great shot.


----------



## PinkDoor (Jul 26, 2012)

Just keep shooting, just keep shooting!  That's also from Nemo (just keep swimming, just keep swimming!)


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

Oh, and start reading the manual for the D90 now.  The day of is definitely not the day to try to figure out all of the new controls.

Also, what speedlight are you using?


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Ok, so here is a gear question.

Given my D90 comes in.  I'll have it and my 3100.  Should I lens up and strap up and carry the two, or use the D90 and change lenses for the shots I want?

I"ll have my 50mm 1.4, 80-200 2.8, kit lens, and I will most likely borrow the Tamron 10-24 from work sat morning for this shoot.

My thoughts, if I get the tamron, is to have the Tamron on the D3100 as it will autofocus, and swap between 50 and 80-200 as needed on the D90.

Or should I just use the D90 and leave 3100 in the bag as backup.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Oh, and start reading the manual for the D90 now.  The day of is definitely not the day to try to figure out all of the new controls.
> 
> Also, what speedlight are you using?



Indeed. I downloaded it this morning.  I'll only have a few hours to play with it before I head off to the shoot.

This is the only area I am not 100% comfortable with myself.  I have not had the chance to work with speedlights on people other than in my aptartment studio lighting setup I have been working on.  I have used them for fill out in the field on flowers and chit, but not people.  So I am pondering, do I risk F'ing a shot up using one or just go without.  I know it's stupid to go without, but I just don't have the experience.

We were going over speedlights this afternoon.  I was advised to not stress over it as I can't use it in the wedding anyway.  However, outside or reception will be different.  So....they are going to find me one tomorrow as I don't have a good one. 

The two I have are cheap crap.  However they served me well thus far as OCF for studio type of setup.

I also have a fong diffuser I can take for the shoot too...so I'll be carrying that with me.  However it does not fit on the old sb-27 I have...so I still need to find one tomorrow.

I expressed I was not comfortable having a good speedlight but I was told to not worry about it..

They all shoot Canon, so it's not as easy for me to get such things or they'd just let me use their good ones.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Now, one other side note, depending on the reception venue, it might not be a bad idea to ask if you can get roof access for a few shots.  I would say we are about 50/50 on them saying yes, and sometimes, it can make a really great shot.



I guess I exceeded my quota of likes, but I like this post and thanks for all the time you are spending in this thread.

I really like this idea, I would not have thought of this.  I will look into it.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

IMO, a wedding cannot be shot without a speedlight and in depth knowledge of how to use it, how to bounce it to get good lighting, and how to balance the flash with the ambient, both in exposure and color balance.

The only time you cannot use a flash is during the ceremony.  The getting ready shots for the groom are going to be a dimly lit converted storage room.  They always are.  The reception is going to be dark or with horrible lighting.  You are going to need to take detail shots that will require a flash.

Out of the 8-12 hours, there is only about 30 minutes of it where flash is not used.  Flash, and it's effective use, is one of the most important gear related parts of photography.

You need a speedlight.

You said you like to read, so take a look at this site.  http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/1-natural-looking-flash/

That's the first page of about 16 pages that are must reads.  Look on the right of the page and on the blue column, it starts with 'flash photography techniques'.

If there is anything in there you don't understand, be sure to ask.

As far as equipment, I started shooting weddings with a D90, so if you let me know what flash you are going to be able to use, I can give you my 'goto' settings that I start at.  Obviously, all rooms are a bit different, but at least it is a starting point and you can adjust from there.


Ernicus said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and start reading the manual for the D90 now.  The day of is definitely not the day to try to figure out all of the new controls.
> ...


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> IMO, a wedding cannot be shot without a speedlight and in depth knowledge of how to use it, how to bounce it to get good lighting, and how to balance the flash with the ambient, both in exposure and color balance.
> 
> The only time you cannot use a flash is during the ceremony.  The getting ready shots for the groom are going to be a dimly lit converted storage room.  They always are.  The reception is going to be dark or with horrible lighting.  You are going to need to take detail shots that will require a flash.
> 
> ...



Awesome, thanks for the link.  I will def read it.

The reading I have done thus far has been on studio lighting and basic strobe concepts, so I am not totally unfamiliar, however it is all read knowledge not experience.  Another reason I have not taken on any jobs yet as I obviously still have things to learn.

Most of what we have in shop are old speedlights for film cameras that I would have to manually adjust.  She (my boss) thinks she has a Nikon one and will look tomorrow.  If not, I'll be stuck with old Metz Mecablitz we have laying around and my sb-27


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Already read some of that link and my noob brain is blown, lol.  Dude was bouncing flash into open room behind him, I would have never thought that would have any effect.

Now I'm going to be up all night reading, thanks.  lol


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Already read some of that link and my noob brain is blown, lol.  Dude was bouncing flash into open room behind him, I would have never thought that would have any effect.
> 
> Now I'm going to be up all night reading, thanks.  lol



Your welcome.  It's probably one of the best resources for on camera flash on the net, but if you are going to be limited to manual flash, bouncing is going to be quite difficult since the distance can change so drastically from one shot to the next.

Honestly, you are braver than I am.  I would never consider shooting a wedding without an SB600 at the minimum.  An SB700/800/910 would be better.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Lol, I see my SB-27 is not on the list.  

well, this sort of thing will be a gift of me being 2nd shooter I guess.  I'm not quite as retarded as taking on a wedding alone as primary.

I just did test shots with my sb-27, bouncing adjusting etc.  I got two cool shots I liked without shadows and harshness.  In focus etc.  It took me about 15 minutes to get it right.  Clearly I won't have that luxury on site.  

Looks like I need to reach out and find a fellow nikonian to borrow a good flash from if I want to have good shots where flash is needed and allowed.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 26, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Lol, I see my SB-27 is not on the list.
> 
> well, this sort of thing will be a gift of me being 2nd shooter I guess.  I'm not quite as retarded as taking on a wedding alone as primary.
> 
> ...



Well, at least you are learning...That is a start.

If you end up not being able to find a different flash, my advice, and sometimes what I do anyway is pick out a spot.  Set up everything for a certain distance, position, good bounce angle, etc...and then only take shots when that position presents itself.  

You have two camera bodies, so you have a bit of flexibility in it.  You can set up one for the ideal circumstance and you can use the other in between.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 26, 2012)

Would I be stupid to set up one of the bodies with pop up flash and a puffer?  Or are those just gimmicks.  I have played with one in the shop but never used one in real world.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Would I be stupid to set up one of the bodies with pop up flash and a puffer?  Or are those just gimmicks.  I have played with one in the shop but never used one in real world.



IMO, yes.  But then again, you have a day and a half to take some test shots under those conditions and decide if that is the type of shot you want.

For me, no, it wouldn't even be an option.  I would recommend somebody else before I shot a wedding(as a primary or not) with a pop up flash and a diffuser.

Being able to bounce flash, and control it is, IMO, imperative.

Yes, 20 years ago, we didn't have the technology we have now.  We also had different expectations.  A wedding album had about 20-40 photos and many of those were posed or recreated.  Now, the client expects 500-600 photos.  IMO, that cannot be done without a modern flash.

Again, as you said earlier...all we are offering is opinions.  Nothing that I do will translate perfectly to what you do.  I am just giving you my opinion and what works for me.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Would I be stupid to set up one of the bodies with pop up flash and a puffer?  Or are those just gimmicks.  I have played with one in the shop but never used one in real world.
> ...



Yup, I understand, not looking to be told what to do as much as for ideas and things I may not be aware of or thought of.  Of which I have received plenty.  I often giggled at people buying puffers honestly so I wanted to make sure my giggles were justified.  lolz.  I'd rather diffuse my sb-27 with minimal bounce options than pufferize a popup.  Just wanted to make sure I was correct in that thinking.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

That just reminded me, last weekend, saturday, a lady came in right at closing and wanted a puffer specifically to go do a wedding sat night.  I asked her what other flash she had and she said "just my popup but my other puffer broke this morning...I hate strobes"  I remember this 'cause almost asked her what her Facebook page was....no doubt she has one showing all of her glory.

I wonder how these people get these jobs, lol.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

anyway I have computer eyes and they are glazed and foggy from reading.  I'm nearing overload so I'm off to sleep on it.

Thank you to everyone who has chimed in.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Just had the info sheet delivered.  Looked up the location, might take a ride by later after work to scope it out. 

Home - Peakes Hill Lodge


Wedding party wants the formal shots, all on the list, outside as much as possible, weather permitting.  So that's a good thing I think.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 27, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:
			
		

> Your welcome.  It's probably one of the best resources for on camera flash on the net, but if you are going to be limited to manual flash, bouncing is going to be quite difficult since the distance can change so drastically from one shot to the next.
> 
> Honestly, you are braver than I am.  I would never consider shooting a wedding without an SB600 at the minimum.  An SB700/800/910 would be better.



George, that link was some incredible info. I've read a ton of articles on lighting, and that was def one of the best. Very useful. Thanks.

Also, I must say, I got my first SB910 a couple weeks ago, and it's a HUGE step up from the already quite capable SB700...


----------



## sm4him (Jul 27, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Oh, and start reading the manual for the D90 now.  The day of is definitely not the day to try to figure out all of the new controls.



^+1
I have never shot a wedding (as first, second, or even third-string shooter), but I CAN tell you from experience that the D90 controls are nothing like the controls on my D5100 (which I assume is siimilar to your D3100). The first time I borrowed my sister's D90, I couldn't figure out how to make the fool thing work!

Honestly, if it was me, I think I'd just stick with the D3100 for this shoot. It's what you've got, it's what you KNOW and while the D90 would definitely perform better, in the hands of someone who KNOWS how to use it, it just seems like an added stressor to try to become competent with a brand-new camera on the day of your very first wedding shoot.  

I'd read the manual, then re-read it, and I'd work with the D90 that morning, but I would NOT try to become proficient enough with it to use it at the wedding, unless my D3100 broke. 
If for some reason I decided to use the D90, I think I'd set it up for a specific type of shot, like maybe low light shots that the D3100 wouldn't do well, and use it only for those, so I wouldn't really have to mess with changing it much.


----------



## 3bayjunkie (Jul 27, 2012)

Good for you! The only way to get good at something is to do it! Ive shot two weddings. Both i was nervous but the bride loves the photos at each so i would say they were both a success! Good luck!


----------



## 12sndsgood (Jul 27, 2012)

depends on the lighting situation and how much better the D90 is at low light. I know with my D3000 I pulled it out at the wedding I shot a few weeks ago  (retard here shooting as main photog as his first wedding) and had thought to use both cameras and I just wasnt happy with the noise i was getting from the D3000.  But I do agree that if you havnt gotten the controls down by wedding time you may just bite the bullet and go with the D3100  after using my D7000 for about 8 months now I had forgotten most of the controls on the D3000. So make sure you know it inside and out.

Couple of things i'll point out that got to me, If you can get to the venue as early as possible. do so. look around, see what options you have and what's available. think about some shots in your head and write them on your list. don't trust yourself to remember. I had a coupel of great shots in my head, but once we got started I didnt' stop until the wedding was over and I had realised I had forgotten those shots.  I had my second almost working opposite of me a lot to just get that diffrent angle. so a lot of shots we would have both covered it and I had two angle to choose from on candid shots. 

If you are using a flash during the reception be aware of overheating your flash. I was comfortable using my flash, but had never really been in a situation where I was shooting a lot and overheated my SB-900 several times. Didn't help that i was trying to bounce off of a very high ceiling either. Watch the bride, they are always stressed out to there breaking point it seems so the better you can make her life the more she will be happy with you. 

It sounds like the guy you will be shooting with likes to shoot alone so you may find he just tells you to stay out of his way. if thats the case stay out of his way and just spend the day getting the best shots you can. try to get the spots he isn't and enjoy in the fact you were smart enough to start off as a 2nd and not a 1st lol.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Update to my strobe situation.  The boss came through a bit for me in that she found me a SB-600 to use. 

So...based on that, Kerbouchard...got any goto's for that flash?  I would guess this is gonna help me greatly.

I will finish reading that site tonight and practice and sink in as much as I can.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

sm4him said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and start reading the manual for the D90 now.  The day of is definitely not the day to try to figure out all of the new controls.
> ...



I'll have it figured out enough to use it, trust me.  My brain works that way.  It's a gift/curse.  lol.

Seriously though, I need to use the D90 to use AF on my 50mm 1.4 and 80-200 1.8.  Not really interested in manually focusing for wedding environment if I don't have to.  Should something not work right or I come out with crap and can't adjust quickly enough, I'll go back to the 3100.  But getting good exposure is the same no matter what camera you use...I just have to get familiar with physical locations of settings, I'll be playing with it all day tomorrow at work.  The basics are all I need to get me through, and  I'll pick up on those functions pretty quickly.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> depends on the lighting situation and how much better the D90 is at low light. I know with my D3000 I pulled it out at the wedding I shot a few weeks ago  (retard here shooting as main photog as his first wedding) and had thought to use both cameras and I just wasnt happy with the noise i was getting from the D3000.  But I do agree that if you havnt gotten the controls down by wedding time you may just bite the bullet and go with the D3100  after using my D7000 for about 8 months now I had forgotten most of the controls on the D3000. So make sure you know it inside and out.
> 
> Couple of things i'll point out that got to me, If you can get to the venue as early as possible. do so. look around, see what options you have and what's available. think about some shots in your head and write them on your list. don't trust yourself to remember. I had a coupel of great shots in my head, but once we got started I didnt' stop until the wedding was over and I had realised I had forgotten those shots.  I had my second almost working opposite of me a lot to just get that diffrent angle. so a lot of shots we would have both covered it and I had two angle to choose from on candid shots.
> 
> ...




Thanks for chiming in, well received.

I am a minimalist while I learn, so I don't bother with much of the "advanced" things these cameras can do.  I shoot full manual with the occasional S mode with my 50mm.  I found in low lighting it does great at shutter speed of 160.  So given that I don't change much anyway, all I need to familiarize myself with is adjusting aperture and shutter, and ISO, I can set ISO to custom button.  So I appreciate all the concerns and comments about getting familiar with new tools, but I know me...I learn fast and I won't stop thinking about things until I get it.  I have always been an electronics junkie and pick up on gidgets and gadgets really fast.

The photog finally called me, seems like a nice enough guy, going to do a call again tonight when he gets in town, he's on his way in from Boston.  So he's on board with me being there...which is a good thing.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Update to my strobe situation.  The boss came through a bit for me in that she found me a SB-600 to use.
> 
> So...based on that, Kerbouchard...got any goto's for that flash?  I would guess this is gonna help me greatly.
> 
> I will finish reading that site tonight and practice and sink in as much as I can.



Sure, I have shot many a wedding with a D90 and an SB600.

First we have to set up the D90.  I would do this part at home.

Auto focus on.
Single point focus.
Beep off.
AF-S(this becomes important when later)
Manual.
RAW(unless the company wants jpegs, and then if you have the memory cards, I would probably shoot RAW +Jpeg)
Auto White Balance
Max Flash Sync at 1/250th
Flash compensation set to 0.

I think that covers most of the important stuff.

For the SB600, TTL Mode with exposure compensation dialed down to about -1 1/3 to start.  The SB600 tends to overexpose by about a stop, even when bouncing.  For direct flash, it needs to be -3 and you might even need to add some in your camera.  It is additive.  So, if you were at +2 on your D90 and -2 on your flash, you would actually be at 0.  If you don't want to worry about this part of it, you can just start with putting your camera flash compensation to -1 1.3, and then the SB600 should be pretty close at 0.

For settings;
ISO: it depends on how many batteries you are carrying for your flash.  If you have several backup sets, you can start at around ISO 800.  If you don't, you will probably need to start at ISO 1600 or you will be flashless by the end of the night.

Aperture, I like to be at around 3.2.  Just seems to be a sweetspot that I am comfortable with.

Shutter speed is going to control your background and your ambient.  I find that I am usually at around 1/100th to 1/125th, but there are certain things that will influence that, sometimes greatly.  A DJ can be your best friend or your worst nightmare.  Most of the time, a good one happens to be both.  I call DJ lights 'devil lights', and after you have shot enough weddings, you will understand why.  Nothing quite like that perfect moment captured on the dance floor and there is a green splotch on the brides chest from his lights.  So, in that case, you have two options, 1) increase your shutter speed so his lights don't register and kill ambient or 2) shoot with your subject between you and the lights so that it acts as a hair or rim light.  In other cases, with an ultra wide lens, I might go down to 1/6th of a second to get as much ambient as possible.  If ambient is great and its a slow dance, I might even pop down to 1/30th for a little.  But, in general, I am going to be somewhere around 1/125th of a second, and will adjust from there as needed.  
Now, none of that is set in stone.  Venues are all different, that's just kind of my starting point and I adjust from there.

On a side note, keep an eye on your flash.  If it is taking a long time to charge, you are going to either need to find a better position where the flash has something better to bounce off of(something I actually do a lot, many times the position I choose to shoot from is largely based on what objects I can bounce my flash off of to get the best lighting.  Obviously, it doesn't always work that way, but look for those opportunities) or you will have to slow down your shutter speed, raise your ISO, or increase your aperture.  If you are seeing a lot times that your second shot looks like the flash didn't go off, you will either need to shoot slower or find a way to make the flash more efficient.

I think that covers most of the basics.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Update to my strobe situation.  The boss came through a bit for me in that she found me a SB-600 to use.
> ...



You are a good man.  Thank you very much.  I dunno what else to say except thanks.  Very helpful and useful information dialed into my exact hardware based on personal experience.  I could not have asked for more.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh, I forgot to say why AF-S is important.  AF-S will enable the SB600's focus assist grid.  It helps immensenly when trying to focus in poor light.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Oh, I forgot to say why AF-S is important.  AF-S will enable the SB600's focus assist grid.  It helps immensenly when trying to focus in poor light.




;-)   Noted.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> You are a good man.  Thank you very much.  I dunno what else to say except thanks.  Very helpful and useful information dialed into my exact hardware based on personal experience.  I could not have asked for more.



You are more than welcome.  Good luck tomorrow.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 28, 2012)

More contact with main photog, said basically he wants me to roam and shoot everything but the formals..."no pressure" he said.  yay


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 28, 2012)

Just got back.  I'm tired.  lol.  Tying to tell my girlfriend how the event went and I had to pause to go wash my face.  lol.  It felt so oily and greasy it was bugging the hell out of me.

I got lots to share.  It was fun and a good experience.  I have lots to learn and focus on.  I'll make a new thread tomorrow and share my adventure.  

I'm tired.


----------

