# Low-light Wedding Tips



## Clawed

Hello there! 

I have a coule of weddings slated for early next year and as a newbie to the wedding photography business, I need some tips for shooting a night wedding (inside a church with an indoor reception).

My goal is to go to these locations and snap a couple of shots to post here to give you an idea of what I am looking at, but for now: 

· ANY lighting tips / suggestions will be appreciated (including gear I should consider bringing along - lighting, lenses).
· I have a pretty good artistic eye, but I definitely would like some shot ideas if you have any.
· Camera / flash settings (obviously tough to give specifics without knowing details but some general tips would suffice.
· Post shots of your own!

Also, keep in mind I am not an absolute beginner or even completely new to helping out with a wedding.  
*I am looking for a mentor, and I will probably post separately for this, but let me know here if you (or someone you know) would be a willing mentor*

Thank you!


----------



## JerryPH

Lighting tips in a church are 100% the same as in *any* low light situation.  Only exception is that in most ceremonies lighting is not permitted at all times so fast glass and cameras good at high ISO are mandatory.

The strobist method, though is very good to know... go to www.strobist.com and read/learn/master lighting 101 and 102.


----------



## Big Mike

The big issue will be whether or not you will be allowed to use additional lighting like flash (or if you even want to).  

If you can, then you don't really have to worry too much about the light levels...and you can concentrate on your techniques for using that light.

If it's not allowed, then it may be a struggle just to get shots that are not blurry.  As mentioned, this is where it pays to have a fast lens and shoot at high ISO.


----------



## Clawed

Big Mike said:


> The big issue will be whether or not you will be allowed to use additional lighting like flash (or if you even want to).
> 
> If you can, then you don't really have to worry too much about the light levels...and you can concentrate on your techniques for using that light.
> 
> If it's not allowed, then it may be a struggle just to get shots that are not blurry. As mentioned, this is where it pays to have a fast lens and shoot at high ISO.


From what I gather this early, I will be able to use a flash during the ceremony.  However, is it even a good idea to use a flash at that time or is it frowned upon because it is distracting?  I have always wondered this... personally, I would like to, as I know how much easier my life will be.


----------



## Big Mike

I almost always use flash at wedding ceremonies.  To some people it might be distracting, but also, most people understand that weddings are a time when people want to have photos taken.

I think it's more important to be aware of where you shoot from, because it's a lot more distracting if you are standing in front of the couple during the ceremony, than if you standing to the side, firing your flash.


----------



## JerryPH

Even if it is allowed, it is a question of style and ability. Personally, given the choice, I would go without flash than with. The flashless ones seem to have so much more personality (and this is a personal choice and opinion)... however if your camera is noisy at ISO 1600-ISO 3200, you may not have the choice and need flash.


----------



## johnbergsing

I use it if it's allowed. It beats the inevitable .... missing an important shot! One thing you should remember is not everything you shoot is going to be a portfolio shot, especially at the ceremony. Artistic style is important, however, there are times during a wedding shoot when I simply do not have the time to think things out. As a paid professional, priority number one is to serve your client. And that means document the event they hired you to document! And if the use of flash is allowed at the venue, then why not use a tool that _almost_ ensures those moments will be documented? So yes, I use my 580EX II, in "Aperture Priority" during the ceremony when it is allowed. 0 ... did I really just admit that???)

Now this is what I've been doing lately. I'll snap those shots using the flash then, if times allows, I'll shut off the flash and switch it to my C1 setting I've preset to a higher ISO/adjusted color balance and see what I can get that way. That way I've got something to fall back on. And that's a good thing for me right now because, at least with the limitations of the 40D, I go with the flash shots most of the time.

Gee, I just argued against what I originally said! My advice is this. Play it safe. Get the shots you can't miss with the flash and, if time allows, play the artist role. The worst thing would be to miss shots that you know the couple wants.


----------



## Clawed

johnbergsing said:


> I use it if it's allowed. It beats the inevitable .... missing an important shot! One thing you should remember is not everything you shoot is going to be a portfolio shot, especially at the ceremony. Artistic style is important, however, there are times during a wedding shoot when I simply do not have the time to think things out. As a paid professional, priority number one is to serve your client. And that means document the event they hired you to document! And if the use of flash is allowed at the venue, then why not use a tool that _almost_ ensures those moments will be documented? So yes, I use my 580EX II, in "Aperture Priority" during the ceremony when it is allowed. 0 ... did I really just admit that???)
> 
> Now this is what I've been doing lately. I'll snap those shots using the flash then, if times allows, I'll shut off the flash and switch it to my C1 setting I've preset to a higher ISO/adjusted color balance and see what I can get that way. That way I've got something to fall back on. And that's a good thing for me right now because, at least with the limitations of the 40D, I go with the flash shots most of the time.
> 
> Gee, I just argued against what I originally said! My advice is this. Play it safe. Get the shots you can't miss with the flash and, if time allows, play the artist role. The worst thing would be to miss shots that you know the couple wants.


Good advice... and I think what you mentioned about 'simply getting the shot is priority' makes sense. Of course, as an artist, I think we all want something unique and striking evey time. That is precisely why I am inquiring, since I know having such low-light conditions seems stifling. Also, I have a second shooter, and that is obviously a great reassurance. 

You speak of the limitations of the 40D, precisely what limitations are important to consider with this camera when shooting this type of event?

Oh, and what gear do you take with you (and which lenses) when shooting a wedding?


----------



## Mike_E

Get NoiseNinja and Don't forget that you need to *know* what your prints are going to look like.

In other words shots that pixel-peepers would rail against (not saying that you are one ) because of the noise make perfectly fine prints. There is an amount of noise that crosses the line and you have to know where that line is.  The Only way to do this is to take a range of shots and have them printed at the lab you intend using.

Mpix is a good one if you haven't settled on one yet.

You will need to know about dragging the shutter (planetneil.com is a good start for info on this), gelling the flash (please don't use a bare flash in a dark, tungsten lit room it looks like a cross between bad scifi and a photoshop joke), panning, GOOD hand holding technique and where your wide angle f/2.8 is.  (BTW a wide angle lens doesn't cause close in distortion, shooting too close does)

Be well versed in shooting for 8x10s and 5x7s and know ahead of time if there will be larger prints required for which shots.  --Talk to the Bride!!

Get a contract and get it signed!!!  Even if it's your brother or sister- Have a contract and go over it with them both!!!!!  This will save you more grief than you could imagine from the front end.  It also helps to deflate bridezillas.

That'll do for a start.

Good luck!

mike


----------



## johnbergsing

Clawed said:


> Good advice... and I think what you mentioned about 'simply getting the shot is priority' makes sense. Of course, as an artist, I think we all want something unique and striking evey time. That is precisely why I am inquiring, since I know having such low-light conditions seems stifling. Also, I have a second shooter, and that is obviously a great reassurance.
> 
> You speak of the limitations of the 40D, precisely what limitations are important to consider with this camera when shooting this type of event?
> 
> Oh, and what gear do you take with you (and which lenses) when shooting a wedding?


Of course we all want something unique and striking. I agree. The more you shoot events the more defined your style will become, even when you don't think so! 

I find the 40D's ISO1600 rather limiting. I don't have a copy of Noise Ninja yet so my opinion could change when I start using that, but images look too noisy for me at ISO1600.


----------



## JerryPH

Before investing in Noise Ninja, check out Imagenomic's Noiseware Pro... I own both and Noiseware is far better.


----------



## Clawed

*Mike_E*, thank you for the advice.  I do have a hard time figuring out what an ideal amount of sharpness can be added in Photoshop before it becomes noticeable in print.  

I am pretty well versed in dragging the shutter, and personally have found it to be imperative when shooting weddings.  As far as a contract is concerned, what is typically contained therein?

*Johnbergsing*, it's too bad, I thought the 40D would perform a bit better than my Xsi (which is _decent_, but probably not great for anything larger than a 5X7).  

*JerryPH*, thanks for the alternative suggestion.  I will try to find out a bit more about each before making a decision.

Also, I am about to purchase a really good wedding lens, but I am torn about which is the best investment.  I figured maybe the Canon EF 24-70mm L f/2.8.  Any suggestions?


----------



## Big Mike

I think the key to shooting at high ISO is to Expose to the Right.  



> Also, I am about to purchase a really good wedding lens, but I am torn about which is the best investment. I figured maybe the Canon EF 24-70mm L f/2.8. Any suggestions?


I personally think that 24mm just isn't wide enough for a work horse lens on a crop body.  Most 'Canon crop body' wedding shooters that I know, love the EF-S 17-55mm F2.8 IS.  They all say the image quality is on par with L lenses...but also that the IS system isn't as robust as it could be. (the solution is to turn it on, only when you really need it).
Other options would be the 17-40 F4L, the 16-35 F2.8 L or the Tamron 17-50mm F2.8 or the Sigma 18-50mm F2.8.  I've got the Tamron and it's great, especially for the price...but I still wish I had the 17-55mm.


----------



## B Kennedy

JerryPH said:


> Before investing in Noise Ninja, check out Imagenomic's Noiseware Pro... I own both and Noiseware is far better.



Vise-Versa, on my 30d at iso 1200, which yields a good amount of noise, I use noiseninja and have  had great results.  As a crutch, you can download the profiles for your individual camera as well as for each iso range.  I havent used noiseware though, just giving my 2cents on noise ninja


----------



## johnbergsing

Clawed said:


> *Mike_E*, thank you for the advice.  I do have a hard time figuring out what an ideal amount of sharpness can be added in Photoshop before it becomes noticeable in print.
> 
> I am pretty well versed in dragging the shutter, and personally have found it to be imperative when shooting weddings.  As far as a contract is concerned, what is typically contained therein?
> 
> *Johnbergsing*, it's too bad, I thought the 40D would perform a bit better than my Xsi (which is _decent_, but probably not great for anything larger than a 5X7).
> 
> *JerryPH*, thanks for the alternative suggestion.  I will try to find out a bit more about each before making a decision.
> 
> Also, I am about to purchase a really good wedding lens, but I am torn about which is the best investment.  I figured maybe the Canon EF 24-70mm L f/2.8.  Any suggestions?


Don't get me wrong, the grainy, noisy look can look fantastic if applied correctly! And it doesn't look that bad at all if the photo is lit well. But it isn't a 5DmkII ... something I long for these days.


----------



## johnbergsing

Clawed said:


> Oh, and what gear do you take with you (and which lenses) when shooting a wedding?


Right now I've only got my 40D. The lenses I take are the 24-70mm f/2.8L and the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM. Both are exquisite pieces of glass! I always have my 580EX II, as well. I also have in the trunk of my car, should any of it be needed, two Vivitar 285HVs, four Pocketwizards, light stands and small bungee cords in case I can't use the lightstands. I carry spare batteries, CF card case that holds four cards, CTO gels (1/4, 1/2 and full), as well as green for the fluorescent lights.


----------



## table1349

Big Mike said:


> The big issue will be whether or not you will be allowed to use additional lighting like flash (or if you even want to).
> 
> If you can, then you don't really have to worry too much about the light levels...and you can concentrate on your techniques for using that light.
> 
> If it's not allowed, then it may be a struggle just to get shots that are not blurry.  As mentioned, this is where it pays to have a fast lens and shoot at high ISO.





JerryPH said:


> Lighting tips in a church are 100% the same as in *any* low light situation.  Only exception is that in most ceremonies lighting is not permitted at all times so fast glass and cameras good at high ISO are mandatory.
> 
> The strobist method, though is very good to know... go to www.strobist.com and read/learn/master lighting 101 and 102.



And I was just getting ready to say that this is a thread for JerryPH and BigMike.  Guess you beat me too it.


----------



## Clawed

johnbergsing said:


> Right now I've only got my 40D. The lenses I take are the 24-70mm f/2.8L and the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM. Both are exquisite pieces of glass! I always have my 580EX II, as well. I also have in the trunk of my car, should any of it be needed, two Vivitar 285HVs, four Pocketwizards, light stands and small bungee cords in case I can't use the lightstands. I carry spare batteries, CF card case that holds four cards, CTO gels (1/4, 1/2 and full), as well as green for the fluorescent lights.


*Johnbergsing*, with the 24-70mm lens, do you feel that it isn't wide enough in conjunction with the 40D (as Big Mike noted)?


----------



## johnbergsing

Clawed said:


> *Johnbergsing*, with the 24-70mm lens, do you feel that it isn't wide enough in conjunction with the 40D (as Big Mike noted)?


I'm not a huge fan of the wide-angle look so it doesn't fit my style well. I'll admit, though, that there have been occasions when I wished I had the EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM (which is my next lens purchase)!


----------



## Mike_E

Hi again, Clawed.

You should Google wedding contracts and look around.  I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Select last night.

In other words it varies from state to state What will actually hold up in court and my suggestion is to spend the $100 or so to have a lawyer go over one with you.  

You could probably get out for less than a good lens filter (especially if they need a head shot) and it might even save you your two back cheeks.


----------



## JerryPH

Hey guys,
This weekend, I found myself a very cool photographer that is kinda-sorta mentoring me and basically letting me tag along and do the assistant/2nd photographer thing.  I had something rather obvious made obvious to me and I am just going to share it here.  

Homes, cars, church and formals photography are a freaking walk in the park.  Where things get uber dark are the reception halls.  

When you get light so low that ISO 6400, F/1.4 and 1/20th of a second are the ambient settings, you tend to look at your pics and go "UGH!", becuase nothing is in focus thanks to motion blur.

What one needs is off camera flash.  Even if that flash is 2-3 speedlights set to 1/4 power.  What I did last night was mount 2 speedlights to light the dance floor and surrounding area They were at opposite corners (rear right, front left) as hight as the lightstands went, and also gave me a nice swath of light for most of the dining/seated area.  I set up a 3rd speedlight (on 1/2 power) to the right of the DJ's booth at the front of the hall pointing to the main B&G table and centering it towards the B&G, obviously. All lights were triggered with pocket wizards.  The main photographer had chanels 1-2 and I had 3-4.  Channel 3 were set for the opposing lights and channel 4 was for my wedding table light.

Believe it or not, this gave me enough light to hit ISO 800, 1/250th at F/4 and it was pretty damn even over a wide area!

Whenever there was action at the wedding table, I flipped it to ch4 and whenever I wanted some illumination on the dance table, I hit channel 3.  I also used the trick of using the SB-800 as minor front fill to reduce shadows.  I just plugged the pocket wizard into the SB-800, set it to TTL and -2 stops EV.

Oh, here is something fun.  I wanted to see what I could get from a larger light source so on the stand facing the wedding table, I later raised up a 50X50 softbox with my Photogenic DR2500 monolight and "borrowed" a socket from the DJ's booth and was able to light everything from the entire dance floor to the wedding table to F/7.1 with the light on 1/2 power... lol  

Now this was a little much for the people and I was asked to back it down, so I went back to a battery powered speedlight, but it was a fun exercise!  Guess where I will be next weekend??  Doing another wedding. 

People, this post was less on how to help the OP light a room, becuase the bigger hint is inside the message.  There are many ways to learn these things, but the BEST way to learn, the RIGHT way to learn... mentor with a good photographer.  This way you get the chance to earn experience without ruining someone's big wedding.  IMHO, if you cannot even take the time to learn this way, you are doing yourself, and more importantly, your clients a major disservice.

I am not even going to touch on the things that you learn that are GOLD that have little to nothing to do with wedding photography, but make a wedding photographer more than a person with a camera snapping pics of someone else in a wedding dress.  Wedding photography is only 10% pressing the shutter, the other 90%, the important part... that is what makes the difference between a others and a good photographer.  Lighting a room SHOULD BE kindergarten for a photographer, there are other way more important things involved.


----------



## Clawed

JerryPH said:


> People, this post was less on how to help the OP light a room, becuase the bigger hint is inside the message. There are many ways to learn these things, but the BEST way to learn, the RIGHT way to learn... mentor with a good photographer. This way you get the chance to earn experience without ruining someone's big wedding. IMHO, if you cannot even take the time to learn this way, you are doing yourself, and more importantly, your clients a major disservice.
> 
> I am not even going to touch on the things that you learn that are GOLD that have little to nothing to do with wedding photography, but make a wedding photographer more than a person with a camera snapping pics of someone else in a wedding dress. Wedding photography is only 10% pressing the shutter, the other 90%, the important part... that is what makes the difference between a others and a good photographer. Lighting a room SHOULD BE kindergarten for a photographer, there are other way more important things involved.


*JerryPH *Thank you for sharing your experience at your recent wedding! Personally, I know that a mentor is very important, and I have made a contact that hopefully can be a good mentor (in wedding photography). I am also learning from David Ziser on KelbyTraining.com and it has been a very big help (not to mention visiting The Strobist site and PlanetNeil). 

I don't know that lighting a room is photography 101, but I do think it is imperative to understand as a wedding photographer. I think I have a pretty good grasp on it now, and I know the most important tools to be successful. I now know where the wedding will take place and I plan to visit this weekend.

I don't know if your message was a way to come down on me in undertaking this event... but realize that the wedding is probably a year away, and these days I eat, sleep and breathe photography. I got into photograpy (in general) as a result of my wedding photographer completely botching our big day. I have viewed albums of many of my friends and have been appalled at what I am finding. I will probably put HUNDREDS of hours into this one event (which I am really not even getting paid much for), because I strive for perfection and by time those weddings roll around I WILL be prepared. 

I think the one thing that really bothers me is those that have been doing this a long time and "think" they are the authorities on weddings, and yet I have seen the work of many of these people, and they do not even really care about their clients... you can see it in their photos!!! I feel that the "leave weddings for the pros" philosophy is BS stated because some are scared of talented upstarts cutting into their business.

Just a rant.... sorry.....


----------



## inTempus

Jerry,

I agree with your approach. I am mentoring with a 13 year pro on 5/23 for my first wedding.  I will be the 2nd (maybe even the 3rd) shooter on this first event.  The wedding party is HUGE with 24 people total in the party.

He has 3 other weddings scheduled this summer that I will be 2nd shooter on.  I'm looking forward to the experience.


----------



## JerryPH

Clawed said:


> I don't know if your message was a way to come down on me in undertaking this event...


 
Lol... go back and read my (many) posts about what I think about people who do not have the basics down and then wanting to do weddings.  That was not pointed directly at you and people that know me here know that if I have something to say to ONE person, I just say it... lol It was a general commment to all people wanting to get into wedding photography.



Clawed said:


> I think the one thing that really bothers me is those that have been doing this a long time and "think" they are the authorities on weddings, and yet I have seen the work of many of these people, and they do not even really care about their clients...


 
Sincerely... you are so off the mark and there is nothing that will convince you but time. The vast majority do care about their photography and do care about their clients. Yes there are some bad ones, there are bad ones in anything... but once you put in 4-5 years of blood sweat and tears, get ripped off a couple times for several thousand dollars a pop, average 13 hours at a wedding taking thousands of pictures per event, add another 40 hours for post processing and break your back learning and fine tuning your style and trade... and then stretch to make time for your wife and children... AND the full-time job that puts bread on your family's table... and then someone with a basic dSLR, kit lens and a strong desire comes up and says "hey can someone tell me what settings I need for a wedding in a church? I have a wedding to do in a week/month" or whatever... if that doesn't make you grind your teeth... nothing will.

Lighting a room *is* child's play. Two flashes set on 1/4 power at opposing corners far from the dance floor 10-13 feet off the ground, and all triggered using pocket wizards. That is it. That is how you can do 80% of a reception. Now, tell me this is not child's play.  Does it work? Magnificently. Does that make you a good wedding photographer? Not even close, because besides a thousand other things, it still takes *very* fast glass, cameras that are good at high ISO and knowledge to make it all happen. It takes people skills, it takes tact, it takes patience, it takes EXPERIENCE and it takes maturity.



Clawed said:


> Just a rant.... sorry.....


 
Nothing to be sorry about, but I can guarantee that once you have put in your time, your years of pactice (not a few months or not even a year which really, if you think about it, is nothing), you will feel EXACTLY the same (maybe even stronger). I've been there, the guy down the street has been there and until you try and get shot down a few times will get there. Come back to me in 3 years and tell me what you thought it took vs what it REALLY took. It's never the same.  

In the meantime, the danger is not whether you will learn or not, we know you will... we all do... but does the bride and groom need to pay the price of one's inexperience? I vehemently do not think that they should. It is not any fledgling photographer's place to use an event such as a wedding to learn while doing the job alone. This is a ONCE in a lifetime event, unrepeatable and if you screw up (which I will 100% guarantee YOU WILL NOT do anywhere near as well if you have not mentored under a good wedding photographer), you can chalk it up to inexperience, but the two people you hurt the most are the ones paying for your education and mistakes... and that is inexcusable. 

Would you want to be the one to sit in the dentist chair and have a person who really wants to be a dentist, practice drilling into your tooth? I know that the medical field is not quite the same as being a photographer... but the pain you inflict is no less real and often lasts a heck of a lot longer. Just ask anyone who has to look at crap wedding pictures for the rest of their lives.

The ones that are true to themselves and realistic about their real life skills and the ones that *care* about doing it once and doing it the right way and will not inflict their lack of ability on others just to learn... those are the ones that make it the highest on the list.  They do what it takes.

IMHO, the people looking for shortcuts are going to find the fast track... to nowhere.


----------



## Clawed

JerryPH said:


> (1)...once you put in 4-5 years of blood sweat and tears, get ripped off a couple times for several thousand dollars a pop, average 13 hours at a wedding taking thousands of pictures per event, add another 40 hours for post processing and break your back learning and fine tuning your style and trade... and then stretch to make time for your wife and children... AND the full-time job that puts bread on your family's table... and then someone with a basic dSLR, kit lens and a strong desire comes up and says "hey can someone tell me what settings I need for a wedding in a church? I have a wedding to do in a week/month" or whatever... if that doesn't make you grind your teeth... nothing will.
> 
> (2)...it still takes *very* fast glass, cameras that are good at high ISO and knowledge to make it all happen. It takes people skills, it takes tact, it takes patience, it takes EXPERIENCE and it takes maturity.
> 
> (3)...does the bride and groom need to pay the price of one's inexperience? I vehemently do not think that they should. It is not any fledgling photographer's place to use an event such as a wedding to learn while doing the job alone. This is a ONCE in a lifetime event, unrepeatable and if you screw up (which I will 100% guarantee YOU WILL NOT do anywhere near as well if you have not mentored under a good wedding photographer), you can chalk it up to inexperience, but the two people you hurt the most are the ones paying for your education and mistakes... and that is inexcusable.
> 
> (4) IMHO, the people looking for shortcuts are going to find the fast track... to nowhere.


 
(1) I can see that you do have a real passion for this. However, business is business, and all of what you describe above comes with the profession. Even though I have not experienced much of any of this yet... I know that at some point I will if I stick with it. At least I am realistic about what I can expect.

(2) I agree that it takes all of what you describe here and more, and I need to develop in some of those areas (photographically). All of the people skills are there already, I have been in a service position my entire career. It's unfortunate that so many photographers (from my experience) are lacking in this area. Honestly, this is part of what will set me apart from the onset.

(3) Agreed. I have been there... a professional with many years of "experience" shoots our wedding stoned (and with his fly down). Misses our portrait shoot ENTIRELY becuase he was unprepared and then pulverizes us with his on-camera flash pointed directly in our faces for the rest of the night. I do NOT take lightly the importance of doing it right and doing it well. If you want to be the one to accept slave wages to shoot a wedding simply to save the couple the possibility of having mediocre shots, then be my guest. The problem is so many price themselves right out of the picture, and that is where someone like me can come in and earn my keep, by providing that couple with some great shots and really wow them. I have done it already...

(4) I am looking for *advice* from those that have been there. I am not looking for an easy answer nor do I expect to be great just from listening to a couple of pointers here. My goal is to _develop _as a photographer and there are many ways I can do this, and I am seeking out ALL of them (experience, mentorship, this forum, reading and watching video of the experts, better equipment etc.).

*Thank you very much for taking the time to respond, I really do appreciate that Jerry*. Hey, I see all of the time posts here and there that someone is going to shoot their first wedding and are looking to get a few last second pointers. Then they say that the couple knows them and they think they can do an adequate enough job for them since they have seen some of their work (with their kit lens, of course). Jerry, that is not what I am about, and for what it's worth I am committed to doing EVERYTHING I can to be successful, which is exactly why I am not here saying "I think I am good enough with my current skill set."  Might I be?  If I didn't think so, I wouldn't even chance shooting another wedding.  However, to be content with where I'm at WOULD be cheating myself and most importantly, my clients.


----------



## johnbergsing

JerryPH said:


> Lol... go back and read my (many) posts about what I think about people who do not have the basics down and then wanting to do weddings.  That was not pointed directly at you and people that know me here know that if I have something to say to ONE person, I just say it... lol It was a general commment to all people wanting to get into wedding photography.
> 
> Sincerely... you are so off the mark and there is nothing that will convince you but time. The vast majority do care about their photography and do care about their clients. Yes there are some bad ones, there are bad ones in anything... but once you put in 4-5 years of blood sweat and tears, get ripped off a couple times for several thousand dollars a pop, average 13 hours at a wedding taking thousands of pictures per event, add another 40 hours for post processing and break your back learning and fine tuning your style and trade... and then stretch to make time for your wife and children... AND the full-time job that puts bread on your family's table... and then someone with a basic dSLR, kit lens and a strong desire comes up and says "hey can someone tell me what settings I need for a wedding in a church? I have a wedding to do in a week/month" or whatever... if that doesn't make you grind your teeth... nothing will.
> 
> Lighting a room *is* child's play. Two flashes set on 1/4 power at opposing corners far from the dance floor 10-13 feet off the ground, and all triggered using pocket wizards. That is it. That is how you can do 80% of a reception. Now, tell me this is not child's play.  Does it work? Magnificently. Does that make you a good wedding photographer? Not even close, because besides a thousand other things, it still takes *very* fast glass, cameras that are good at high ISO and knowledge to make it all happen. It takes people skills, it takes tact, it takes patience, it takes EXPERIENCE and it takes maturity.
> 
> Nothing to be sorry about, but I can guarantee that once you have put in your time, your years of pactice (not a few months or not even a year which really, if you think about it, is nothing), you will feel EXACTLY the same (maybe even stronger). I've been there, the guy down the street has been there and until you try and get shot down a few times will get there. Come back to me in 3 years and tell me what you thought it took vs what it REALLY took. It's never the same.
> 
> In the meantime, the danger is not whether you will learn or not, we know you will... we all do... but does the bride and groom need to pay the price of one's inexperience? I vehemently do not think that they should. It is not any fledgling photographer's place to use an event such as a wedding to learn while doing the job alone. This is a ONCE in a lifetime event, unrepeatable and if you screw up (which I will 100% guarantee YOU WILL NOT do anywhere near as well if you have not mentored under a good wedding photographer), you can chalk it up to inexperience, but the two people you hurt the most are the ones paying for your education and mistakes... and that is inexcusable.
> 
> Would you want to be the one to sit in the dentist chair and have a person who really wants to be a dentist, practice drilling into your tooth? I know that the medical field is not quite the same as being a photographer... but the pain you inflict is no less real and often lasts a heck of a lot longer. Just ask anyone who has to look at crap wedding pictures for the rest of their lives.
> 
> The ones that are true to themselves and realistic about their real life skills and the ones that *care* about doing it once and doing it the right way and will not inflict their lack of ability on others just to learn... those are the ones that make it the highest on the list.  They do what it takes.
> 
> IMHO, the people looking for shortcuts are going to find the fast track... to nowhere.


Well said. I haven't been in the game that long but my experience has led me to some of the same conclusions.


----------



## Clawed

JerryPH said:


> Lighting a room *is* child's play. Two flashes set on 1/4 power at opposing corners far from the dance floor 10-13 feet off the ground, and all triggered using pocket wizards. That is it. That is how you can do 80% of a reception.


By the way Jerry, or _anyone_ for that matter with an opinion...

What are the advantages of using PocketWizards and Speedlites to light the room instead of studio-type strobes with transmittal capability built in? With the flashes set so high, do you typically find that they do not fire still because of line-of-sight issues? Also, do you typically still fire the flash on top of your camera, or turn it off and let the other flashes light it up during the reception?

Update:  I found this blog by Scott Kelby earlier and I figured it might help others with similar questions.

http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/4280


----------



## JerryPH

Clawed said:


> What are the advantages of using PocketWizards and Speedlites to light the room instead of studio-type strobes with transmittal capability built in?



Portability and versatility.  I can take down that one flash on a light stand and run around to different areas or hallways without needing to worry about plugs.  Yes, I have a 1000 W/s pro head with a Vagabond battery pack, but IMHO, this is not the place for it.  Small, light, fast and portable rule.  This doesn't mean that you cannot do it, though, becuase you can.  It depends on style, needs, room available, layout and customer desires.



Clawed said:


> With the flashes set so high, do you typically find that they do not fire still because of line-of-sight issues?



Not if you use the best triggers on the market.  A Pocket Wizard II can trigger a a flash from a bit over a 1/2 mile away!  Now, becuase I have tested this personally to about a 1/4 mile with a brick wall in between with a 100% success ratio, I have *NO* worries about being able to trigger that flash that is 200 feet away and 13 feet in the air.  I also would have confidence in my modded Cactus V2s, however, not 100% and where paying customers are involved, 90% reliability is not enough in my mind.



Clawed said:


> Also, do you typically still fire the flash on top of your camera, or turn it off and let the other flashes light it up during the reception?



This question screams lack of basic camera/flash knowledge (sorry, not being mean, just stating a fact).  It should be obvious that 99% of on camera flash is TTL and off camera flash is manual.  Canon users cannot mix and match TTL and non-TTL light sources as easily, but I have done both becuase I know the "tricks" how to do this in a Nikon setup.  

To answer the question, I have used just a PW II in my hotshoe and a 2nd lightstand near me with a flash on it.  

I have also slapped my SB-800 on camera, velcro'ed a PW II to it and attached it to the sync port on the SB-800 and used the SB-800 for a SMALL amount of front fill while in iTTL mode (usually set to -1.7 EV so that you could not tell that there was a front flash.  This is one of the *very few* places where Nikon users have it over the Canon users).  In this configuration, any and all non-iTTL light sources are triggered by the PW's are in sync with all the iTTL light sources triggered and controlled by the on camera master. It just makes for more choices for more versatility.

Again, practicing all this in your basement or at your friend's is not even close to preparing for the stress and demands of doing this in a fast moving dynamic event like a wedding... where most times you have no more than 2-3 seconds to get the shot... 1-2 seconds of which are wasted getting to a position or angle needed.    One really *should* mentor with a professional.  IMHO, in this case self learning takes 10 times longer and shows you half the amount of information.

I've learned more in 2 weddings as an assistant/2nd photographer than 2 years of focused learning and practice and reading articles on the internet.  

There is no comparison possible.  One is like trying to learn Jiu-Jitsu from a video (impossible to do, because it takes a partner!), where the other is learning face to face from a master while really training, fighting and experiencing the results first hand happen.


----------



## B Kennedy

Jerry - I agree with all that you have said and I'm personally in the process of trying to figure out whether or not I want my next flash purchase to be studio lighting (dual alienbees) or to invest in a couple pocket wizards and 2 speedlights.

But my main question is this, what is the best way to go about contacting photographers to inquire about mentoring/shadowing them.  I really want to do this, not to mention that I believe I'll have a blast doing it.  But i do want to learn about their style/techniques and lighting setups.  I don't want to be paid I just want to learn and maybe down the line should I prove myself to them, we could then talk about being paid.

I've contacted like 2-3 so far asking if I could photograph with them, maybe my wording wasn't quite the best.  This is what I wrote:  "I am contacting you to see if there is any possibility that I could photograph some weddings with you.  I have recently started up a photography company in Clark as a side job to my main career in construction management.  I have always had a passion for photography and finally started to act on it.  I've recently photographed dance recitals, cheer leading competitions, as well as recently shooting Sweet 16's.  My goal is to eventually make my way into wedding photography and develop my own niche, but for now, I'm looking to gain some experience/advice.  I have a portfolio, both online as well as physical prints, should we be able to work something out.  I hope to hear from you soon,  thanks for your time."

That was the message I sent out.  I really want to find some people by me to get a few events and weddings under my belt.  Any advice on contacting and how to word it to the pros that I'm not just trying to steal their style or what not?


----------



## Clawed

JerryPH said:


> *This question screams lack of basic camera/flash knowledge (sorry, not being mean, just stating a fact)*. _It should be obvious that 99% of on camera flash is TTL and off camera flash is manual._
> 
> Again, _practicing all this in your basement or at your friend's is not even close to preparing for the stress and demands of doing this in a fast moving dynamic event like a wedding_... where most times you have no more than 2-3 seconds to get the shot... 1-2 seconds of which are wasted getting to a position or angle needed. One really *should* mentor with a professional. IMHO, in this case self learning takes 10 times longer and shows you half the amount of information.
> 
> _I've learned more in 2 weddings as an assistant/2nd photographer than 2 years of focused learning and practice and reading articles on the internet._
> 
> There is no comparison possible. One is like trying to learn Jiu-Jitsu from a video (impossible to do, because it takes a partner!), where the other is learning face to face from a master while really training, fighting and experiencing the results first hand happen.


 
Why did you even have to include the comment above? Did it add anything to this conversation? I _did _appreciate you sharing your experience with us, but now you are just coming off as condescending.


----------



## JerryPH

B Kennedy said:


> This is what I wrote:  "I am contacting you to see if there is any possibility that I could photograph some weddings with you.  I have recently started up a photography company in Clark as a side job to my main career in construction management.



Your first mistake started within the first 5 words of your line above.  When they receive an email from you, they see 3 things.

1. Someone in their area trying to steal business from them in their already saturated market.

2. Someone that has nothing to offer.

3. Someone that doesn't care enough to shake their hand in person, likely because of little to no people skills... likely THE MOST IMPORTANT skill any wedding photographer needs.

The first time, I researched at least 30-40 local wedding photographers, found the top 3-4 and THESE were the ones that I wanted to mentor for... not just anyone.  I did not write them a stupid email, I went in there and introduced myself to them.  I laid down the following:

I was NOT a threat to their business and I proved it.  

I had people skills, and I proved it.

I had limitless passion and I proved it.

I was not there to waste their time, I had *mastered* the basics of ISO, aperture and shutter as well as on and off camera basic lighting as well as complete functionality of my camera and lighting, and I proved it.

I showed them that I was willing to do what it took, and I proved it.

I showed them that there was something that *I* would do for *them*, and I proved it.

On my first interview, the #1 guy on my list was Mr Paranoid.  He was through with me in about 10 minutes.  On my second try I hit on someone that wanted to see my equipment and work.  We talked and setup a 2nd meeting and I brought my basics along as well as m laptop and a 5 page layout in prints of my best works.  We clicked, he accepted me but under such incredible restrictions that the only thing I would get from the relationship was knowledge... no portfolio, no flickr, no sharng, NOTHING... just knowledge.  I agreed.  Whenever I mentioned that here on this board, it seemed to piss of a few people and they thought I as BSing.  I do not BS... but I do respect agreements that I make.

The 2nd wedding photographer placed a post in the Montreal Strobist group and that one was easier.  He posted and asked for an email.  Me and a dozen or more returned the email.  I just did the same thing again, and here I am with the chance of doing 2 e-sessions and 3 weddings in the last 3 weeks.



Clawed said:


> Why did you even have to include the comment above? Did it add anything to this conversation?



You can take it as a put down if you wish... when I was told this, I took it as motivation to learn the basics... and so I did.  Consider this... if you cannot take this baby level tap in the shoulder now, you sure as hell are not going to be able to have someone look in your face and scream at you in public saying your work is sh!t and to shape up or find something easier like they did to me.  If you think I was tough... you are not ready to even be out in the work force, much less be in a situation where someone's LIFE MEMORIES are in your hands.  You see, there are hundreds of people behind you that *are* ready.  That is reality in today's market.

Bluntly put, if you want to drive at NASCAR and win, the least one can do is learn the difference between the gas pedal and the brakes.  

Like someone told me to my face in front of 3 couples... suck it up or leave... lol.   I sucked it up... and fast. :meh:

Did it add to the post?  It sure as hell did! :mrgreen:   It is a small sample that you need to know more than how to press the shutter button.  You need to be ready to accept criticism and you need to be less whiney (thats called maturity and I spoke about that earlier).

You don't have to respect me, I do not care becuase I am not here to hand-hold anyone, but if you respect the seriousness of this situation, you take anything negative... and turn it into your positive.


----------



## B Kennedy

I gotta tell you Jerry, I feel you offer up some good advice on this forum.  But your manner of speaking is just plain garbage.  You don't always have to be so curt right off the bat.  You talk about people skills and the like, but you do not show any on the forums.  I do intend to contact them initially through email, so that I don't waste my time driving all over the state to reach them, if they show interest, my next step would absolutely be a phone call and to set up a meeting.  Anyways, thanks for your opinion and I sure hope you would take my advice in that you should work on being a little bit more polite and a little less arrogant because as I'm sure you are aware, many people will dismiss you on that premise alone.


----------



## KmH

JerryPH said:


> Before investing in Noise Ninja, check out Imagenomic's Noiseware Pro... I own both and Noiseware is far better.


+1


----------

