# Identification - Marion Soho Camera??



## Heidi Rosser (Sep 26, 2019)

Hi, I'm new to this forum but a keen collector.
I'm looking to identify two cameras I have recently purchased.  
The one on the right is clearly labeled Marion & Co London. So I assume this is a Marion Soho Reflex camera. It has some issues so will possibly be used as parts.
The one on the left is a slight mystery.  It is not marked.  It looks like a Marion, maybe an earlier version.  What it does have is some lovely, what look like leaves indented on the corners of the leatherette. I have added a couple of images. 


 

 


Just wondering if anyone knows if this is a Marion or something else??


----------



## IanG (Sep 26, 2019)

They are definitely a  both Soho Reflex cameras made by Kershaw and sold by Marion & Co.  Both companies became part of APM/APEM a marketing association formed by a few film and equipment manufacturers.

So they were sold as both Marion Soho Reflex or Kershaw Soho Reflex, I'd have to check tor the dates.  I have a Marion Soho Reflex and it does have that leaf pattern I'd not noticed before.

There will be variations as they were made for many years.

Ian


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Sep 26, 2019)

Hey Ian, thanks for the reply. The right had one was sold as a Marion, but like I say it has issues which I didn’t know when I purchased it. Luckily I only paid $40 for it. 
The other one came with a load of vintage camera stuff and was just listed as Antique Camera. I thought it might have been a Marion and took the risk. Again picked up at a good price. But added the lens myself. Which seems to fit lovely.
The leaf design is quite unique.


----------



## Derrel (Sep 26, 2019)

It would be good if you would compress your images more for web use. They loaded so slowly over my mobile connection that they still are not done, and I've already made this coming by speaking slowly in my speech-to-text program and am now preparing to close thread


----------



## IanG (Sep 26, 2019)

Heidi, have you  found and tried the front swing mechanism it's quite unique for a reflex camera.

Should have added earlier from 1929 APM broke up when the film and paper companies became part of Iford and the sales side became Soho Ltd, both cameras are earlier than that.  Some Soho Reflex cameras were rebranded for large retailers and few never had a badge, that's the same with other manufacturers.

Ian


----------



## vintagesnaps (Sep 26, 2019)

I've never heard of or seen one of these. Thanks for posting, interesting to get to see them; in fact I'd like to see them opened up.

About what year(s) do you think these were made?


----------



## IanG (Sep 26, 2019)

Introduced in 1905 and made into the late 1930's.  Probably the best large SLR on the market, mine's a 5"x4" version with a TTH Cooke lens.

Unlike the lazy Graflex multi slot variable tension FP shutters most British (& German) focal plane SLRs  (& others with FP shutter) cameras vary the slit width and have a fixed tension just like more modern cloth shuttered 35mm (&120) SLRs and Leica's and copies.

Sharon, you need to see one open and the movements. If you ever come to the UK you can have a play

Ian


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Sep 26, 2019)

Hey Darrel, sorry it took too long to load, new on this forum will remember to reduce next time.

Thanks for the info Ian, really interesting. Been looking for info on Google too.

On closer inspection the one without the lens some one has butchered and removed the rear shutter curtain to leave just the rollers. I can imagine it would be impossible to find a replacement for that.

Had a good look and got the other one to fire, which is good. I was not sure at first as I’m use to a louder Clunk from the Graflex cameras I have. It was much quieter. Need to give it a good clean today.

Also found the original customs declaration in the leather case. It was sent from London to New Zealand in 1987. But looks like it was purchased her in Nelson around 1912. 

Just love the history behind these cameras.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Sep 26, 2019)

Thanks Ian, I'll keep that in mind if I ever plan a trip across the ocean! lol I'd be glad to look at any British cameras anytime. 

Hey, just realized I do have one! The last Kodak box Brownie, that was British. It even has - settings!! Nice one to use too.


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Oct 10, 2019)

Well you’ll never believe but I found another Marion in a second hand shop today! This one looks shorter and wider, but looks like a Marion. I’ll try and take a photo tomorrow to post. 
I managed to barter with the dealer and got it at a rock bottom price. It came with the big leather case and two Thornton Pickard lenses. I was quite excited.
Now I’ve tested it, it looks like the shutter curtain has disintegrated, but the rest of the camera is great.

Just wondering if anyone had tried to replace a shutter curtain on one of these. I’m guessing it would be similar to doing a graflex and there is lots on line showing how to do this. I need to find the fabrics first, any ideas on where to source this too?


----------



## IanG (Oct 10, 2019)

I've replaced shutter curtains on some early reflex cameras, I've not got around to my Soho Reflex yet.  Most British (& German) reflex cameras have shutters that are quite different to Graflex reflexes and Speed Graphics.  Essentially they are large versions of the later cloth shutters used in 35mm and MF cameras, unlike Graflex shutters they have two shutter curtains and are self capping so the curtains are closed when the shutter's re-cocked. 

Shutter speed is controlled by the width of the slit between the two curtains, the two curtains each have a pair of rollers top and bottom like a Graflex shutter or TP roller blind shutter theres a spring in the bottom rollers. It's best to make any speed change before cocking the shutter as the slit width  is adjusted by how much of the one curtain is wound onto its top roller.





This is a TP Unit shutter from a Ruby Reflex  (i've adjusted the contrast to make it clearer), these come out along with the mirror box as a complete unit so can function outside a camera, however other cameras have the shutter built into the body.

On the shutter above the outer curtain is attached to the bottom roller and  by tape either side to its top roller, it's this curtain that is used to adjust shutter speed.  There's no adjusting tension like early Graflex shutters.  The difficulty is getting the right thickness curtain material and particularly tape.

Post some photos of your new camera.

Ian


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Oct 10, 2019)

Here she is.


----------



## IanG (Oct 11, 2019)

Yes, a Postcard sized Soho Reflex.

Ian


----------



## vintagesnaps (Oct 11, 2019)

Is that a beauty!


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Jul 16, 2020)

Managed to acquire this beauty to add to the Marion collection

Was not sure if it was a Soho Night Reflex or not. Could only find images of one online.
It has a massive and fast Carl Zeiss 16.5/ 2 7 lens .


----------



## Mike Drone (Jul 16, 2020)

Great finds =]


----------



## IanG (Jul 16, 2020)

Heidi Rosser said:


> Managed to acquire this beauty to add to the Marion collection
> 
> Was not sure if it was a Soho Night Reflex or not. Could only find images of one online.
> It has a massive and fast Carl Zeiss 16.5/ 2 7 lens .



The Soho "Night" Reflex had a TTH Cooke 5½" f2 Series 0 lens so would have been a Quarter plate camera, in the 1926 BJP Almanac Zeiss don't list the 16.5cm f2.7 Tessar however it is fitted to two Contessa Nettel 9x12 cameras, one camer is £37-12-6 with the f2.7 Tessar an that compares to £38 for the Cooke 5½" f2 lens on its own in a similar sunken focus mount (same BJPA).

1926 is a time when fast lenses are making and impact, Ernemann sold a 9x12 camera with an f1.8 Ernostar lens, later they sold a Night reflex with a similar lens, Meyer had an f3 Anastigmat & f2 Plasmat and within a year or so an f1.5.  The whole industry was in crisis which saw many mergers, the largest being the formation of Zeiss Ikon in Germany, combining Carl Zeiss, Contessa-Nettel, Goerz, Ernemann, ICA etc into Zeiss Ikon, but in the UK Ilford was taking over competitors and Marion & Co, Kershaw, Thornton Pickard, Paget etc came together as APM. My guess is in 1926/7 all the early 16.5cm f2.7 Tessars were being fitted to Zeiss made cameras.

The only images I find for a Soho Night Reflex is from an auction says it's 4.5x6cm, however as the 5½" f2 lens is for Quarter plate according to Cooke, it also ates the camera as 1906 so the listing is clearly inaccurate.

I think the use of the term Night is added by distributors/retailers when they add f2 and faster lenses, the term Speed seems to be used for  f3.5 to f2.7 but these are vague advertising terms. Usually retaillers bought in cameras like these and the lenses separately as it gave greater flexibility.  

The camera's a good find, the 16.5cm f2.7 Tessar is quite a sought after lens,it's one I'd like to get. I have a 165mm f6.3 & f5.3 (quite rare) so am on the look out for an f4.5, 3.5 and f2.7 (all the same FL).

Ian


----------



## IanG (Jul 16, 2020)

Just a follow up the Contessa-Nettel "Super Speed" Deckerollo camera is reviewd in the 1926 BJPA with the f2.7 16.5cm Tessar, same year Voigtlander release their f2.5 Heliostigmat the 21cm version covers Quarter plate and 9x12.  Meyer's f3 Anastigmat is listed on their Press Strut style Super Speed Outfit, there's also a review of a Meyer Super-SpeedMiniature Reflex, (4.5 x 6 cm) available with an f3 Trioplan, an f2.9 Dallmeyer Pentac, a  Ross f4.5 Xpres, or a Meyer f4 Plasmat. 

All these new fast lenses came after the introduction new optical glasses with higher refractive indexes by Schott Glass  company owned by the Zeiss Foundation who were the major shareholder of Zeiss Ikon (the amera side) and owner of CArl Zeiss Jena.

From memory the review of the f2.7 165mm/16.5cm Tessar was in the 1927 BLP Almanac.  CZJ state(d) that the f6.3 Tessar is the best for overall critical sharpness the f4.5 version was the general purpose lens, the f3.5 was essentially a Press lens getting the image was more iportant than quality and the f2.7 took that a step further.  Kodak Commercial Etars were based on the CZJ f6.3 Tessar and have a well deservred reuptation, Congo (Osaka) took over the production line.

My 16.5cm f5.3 Tessar is an enigma, never adertised by CZJ (not in the Vade or is it Vague Mecum) but may have been made specifically for Eastman Kodak or Kodak Ltd.

Back then with no coatrings it was all about compromise the f2.7 Tessar and f3 Meyer Triplan had 4 internal glass surfaces, faster plasmats had 6 and that drops contrast considerably.

From memory it's Q14 the Schott optical glass used for the front elements of early fast lenses, it's soft and prone to cleaning marks and also atmospheric pollution - so I'm told by a lens desighner on another Forum. I don't doubt him as I have two lenses that look like new, one a Domiplan for an Exacta is so soft it won'f focus, another a Novar on an Ikonta is so low contrast and soft it's useless. Leitz Summar's used the same glass and very few are any good by now.

Ian


----------



## Heidi Rosser (Jul 16, 2020)

Fantastic information Ian. I can always rely on you for the facts.
Will be cleaning up the camera tomorrow as it's a wee bit dirty. Only received it yesterday.
The lens was what attracted me to it. Plus it was slightly different my other Marions.
I did quickly look on eBay and saw a similar lens for $1500(US) which quite surprised me. 
Don't want to part with it, it's a great addition to the collection.


----------



## IanG (Jul 17, 2020)

I think $1500 for a 165mm f2.7 Tessar is rather over optimistic,  I nearly bought one in a shutter for £160 ($200) last year.

Marion & Co were the early distributors, by the time that camera was made distribution was by APM, Amalgamated Photographic Manufacturers Ltd, and Marion were just a small part as plate manufacturers. APM split with Marion, Paget & RAjar coming under APEM, Amalgamated Photographic Equipment Manufacturers Ltd , and of the three film/plate/paper manufacturers Paget and Rajar were acquired by Ilford and presumably Marion ceased trading in the late 1920's, Ilford's current factory is in fact the old Rajar works in Mobberley.  APM itself became Soho Ltd in 1929. 

Soho Ltd was essentially the sales side of Kershaw & Son who were the actual manufacturers of the Soho Reflex and other cameras mostly for roll film.

Ian


----------

