# B&H Got Some 'Splaining To Do



## rexbobcat

Photo retailer B&H faces unwanted exposure over worker safety


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## EIngerson

Well, keep an eye on prices.


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## DarkShadow

Yes I don't believe a lot of whats being said.Over worked long hours maybe but denied to water or bathroom breaks or denied medical attention when needed sounds like a lot of BS to me. A supervisor threw hot water on a one of the workers and slapped his face,what a crock of s**t.


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## rexbobcat

Eh, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to the comments considering the similar dissatisfaction that employees have said they have with the other big warehouse company, Amazon. Some of the warehouse workers are apparently undocumented, so it's not like they could just go report workplace abuse. That's not to say it isn't hyperbole, but I wouldn't outright dismiss their claims simply because B&H _seems_ like a nice company.


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## nycphotography

how typical.  one sided journalism. not one interview with any satisfied employees, or with any present or even former employees with a different point of view.  and no indication of the great effort expended looking for an alternate point of view to avail.

I'm not saying anything in the story is false.  Unfortunately, the third world / high school newspaper level of reporting has left me with too little information to have any informed opinion on the matter.

I will say this... I tend to identify more with the working class than the owning class, yet this story completely fails to resonate with me as anything more than typical worker exaggerations and propaganda.

I mean, you work in a damn camera store after all, yet you can't manage to get one picture of the said infractions?


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## vintagesnaps

How is it that there seems to be no other news story on this? in NYC of all places, why is there no other news source covering this?

The video shows a protest in front of the store but the signs say laundry workers. I don't know why they're protesting in front of the B&H store, it makes no sense.

There may be problems at the store and/or their warehouse, I don't know, but this doesn't seem to necessarily be giving reliable information.


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## waday

We can all claim that we don't want to believe the stories of warehouse workers, but I totally agree with @rexbobcat re: similar stories about Amazon.

By the way, this is in other sources, as well. Namely, the New York Times.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/1...ize.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/



vintagesnaps said:


> How is it that there seems to be no other news story on this? in NYC of all places, why is there no other news source covering this?
> 
> The video shows a protest in front of the store but the signs say laundry workers. I don't know why they're protesting in front of the B&H store, it makes no sense.



This quote from the NYTimes may help explain that:
_Mahoma Lopez, a co-director of the Laundry Workers Center, an advocacy group that works mainly with low-income immigrant workers, said they had begun meeting last year with B&H warehouse employees._


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## dcbear78

nycphotography said:


> how typical.  one sided journalism. not one interview with any satisfied employees, or with any present or even former employees with a different point of view.  and no indication of the great effort expended looking for an alternate point of view to avail.
> 
> I'm not saying anything in the story is false.  Unfortunately, the third world / high school newspaper level of reporting has left me with too little information to have any informed opinion on the matter.
> 
> I will say this... I tend to identify more with the working class than the owning class, yet this story completely fails to resonate with me as anything more than typical worker exaggerations and propaganda.
> 
> I mean, you work in a damn camera store after all, yet you can't manage to get one picture of the said infractions?


It did say they tried to get a comment from B&H but we're denied/ignored. 

I'm speculating here but I'd say all employees have been banned from talking to the media unless an authorised representative. Any job I've been in has had this as a condition of my employment. Obviously the ones fighting management don't care so much for this rule right now. 

And these people don't work in a camera store. They work in a warehouse. The closest they come to handling a camera is the picture on the outside of the box.


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## runnah

Eh I'll order from Adorama.


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## limr

Damn, I was about to put an order in.


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## Designer

limr said:


> Damn, I was about to put an order in.


Withholding your order won't make B&H capitulate, IMO.


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## tirediron

If the job was so bad, would you really stay in it?  I'm sure there are issues, but there are at any large company, especially when you have a large un or semi-skilled workforce.  At the end of the day, this is purely an internal issue.


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## Mr. Innuendo

"The men, many of whom are undocumented..."

Well, there ya' go. If they weren't here, they wouldn't be having these problems.

I don't want to give this a political slant, but it's part of the article referenced. I've no sympathy for them if their allegations are true (and I don't necessarily believe they are).

Also, let's consider the source. Al Jazeera being critical of a Jewish owned company?

Shocking.


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## DarkShadow

Most if not all work place's have issues or some sort of abuse one way or another but when people are unhappy in a work environment people tend to stretch the truth and even flat out lie.Second if your going to live in the US become a legal Citizen,not thats an excuse to treat anyone any different but just saying. Placing another order from B&H next month if the price don't sky rocket.


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## limr

Designer said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, I was about to put an order in.
> 
> 
> 
> Withholding your order won't make B&H capitulate, IMO.
Click to expand...


It's not about forcing B&H to do anything. It's a matter of me deciding where I'm more comfortable spending my money.


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## limr

And not for nothin', but this is not the first time B&H has been sued for mistreatment of and discrimination against their workers. They settled a massive discrimination suit in 2007 and are still in the middle of several more filed since then.


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## JacaRanda

I'm always interested in how much and how often undocumented workers are blamed versus employers that knowingly and willingly hire them.


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## rexbobcat

nycphotography said:


> I mean, you work in a damn camera store after all, yet you can't manage to get one picture of the said infractions?



I imagine a lot of people who work in the warehouse can't afford the equipment, and can't afford to potentially lose their jobs. Working in the warehouse doesn't necessarily mean they can just go through the merchandise with ease.

I mean, a manual labor worker wouldn't do well to potentially cause waves, because they're on the lowest part of the totem pole within the company and could be terminated and any record of the company's infraction could be wiped away without a hitch.

And if they came forward personally to the news or whomever, then that story would be attached to their name, making it more difficult to find a new job since no company wants, for lack of a better word, a snitch for an employee.

It's weird that we've become so intimately attached to these multi-million dollar companies that we can't fathom them doing shitty things, even though the opposite has been proven time and time again.


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## rexbobcat

JacaRanda said:


> I'm always interested in how much and how often undocumented workers are blamed versus employers that knowingly and willingly hire them.



Ummmm, don't you know


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## rexbobcat

Mr. Innuendo said:


> "The men, many of whom are undocumented..."
> 
> Well, there ya' go. If they weren't here, they wouldn't be having these problems.
> 
> I don't want to give this a political slant, but it's part of the article referenced. I've no sympathy for them if their allegations are true (and I don't necessarily believe they are).
> 
> Also, let's consider the source. Al Jazeera being critical of a Jewish owned company?
> 
> Shocking.



Something tells me you don't ever actually read Al Jazeera America, because if you did you'd realize that it's probably one of the more high quality sources of news we have in the West.

But I just knew, kneewwww that the Muslim/Jewish thing was going to pop up eventually. It was inevitable, because the Arabs are obviously compelled to sling mud at Jews in every context, even if the source has had more comprehensive, objective, and informative news than ANY European or American news outlet.

But then again, I forgot about the Arab/Muslim hivemind that makes them hate everyone who's not of the same race/religion, so how could we _ever_ trust them? American values. Trump 2016.


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## Braineack

i dont like my job.  i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.


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## rexbobcat

Braineack said:


> i dont like my job.  i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.



Do you think people working in a warehouse have many options? Especially in a place like New York City? If the poor work environment exists, getting a new job just helps perpetuate it by letting it settle onto the next person.


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## limr

rexbobcat said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> i dont like my job.  i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think people working in a warehouse have many options? Especially in a place like New York City? If the poor work environment exists, getting a new job just helps perpetuate it by letting it settle onto the next person.
Click to expand...


Exactly. This is true regardless of their legal status as well. For an unskilled worker to just get another job is not as easy as one might think, and I'm sure they have already spent years putting up with a lot of crappy work conditions. However, _if these allegations turn out to be true_, this would not be just a matter of workers being whiny and complaining or the job being physically demanding. It would be a matter of the company actively violating safety regulations and abusing their workers. That's not the same thing as having a rude boss or an uncomfortable chair.


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## nycphotography

dcbear78 said:


> It did say they tried to get a comment from B&H but we're denied/ignored.
> 
> I'm speculating here but I'd say all employees have been banned from talking to the media unless an authorised representative. Any job I've been in has had this as a condition of my employment. Obviously the ones fighting management don't care so much for this rule right now.
> 
> And these people don't work in a camera store. They work in a warehouse. The closest they come to handling a camera is the picture on the outside of the box.



Riiight.   They checked off the "asked B&H to comment [X]" box.   Therefore their responsibility for presenting balanced journalism has been met.  Riiiight.

Anyone smart enough to be accepted into any journalism program should be smart enough to understand that no company is going to comment on any matter where there litigation.  And anyone who graduated from one has no excuse whatsoever.  Not gonna happen.  So using that "no comment" as the other side of any story is either disengeneous, retarded, or just plan lazy.  

Although it would be easy to go with the implied political motives of assuming  disengeneous, I rather suspect it is a combination of retarded and lazy.  Too retarded to realize they have been lazy in their attempt to present the complete picture required for a balanced story.

The sad part isn't what the writer produced.  The sad part is that the editors let it go out as is, especially considering how desperately AlJazeera wants to be taken seriously.

Even without pursing the other side, dig deeper into the side you have.  What EVIDENCE have you collected other than the story you are telling?

Again, as I said initially, this is a pathetic effort at journalism.

And I have no idea if B&H is evil as charged.  None whatsoever.  My only takeaway from this is that some warehouse workers are upset, but not upset enough to bother to collect evidence and documentation that can be presented to the media or the courts, and therefore, I still have NO IDEA if B&H is evil.

Oh, and that if this sad example is indicative of the kind of effort one can expect from AjJazeera, then they are hardly deserving of first world consideration.


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## nycphotography

rexbobcat said:


> Do you think people working in a warehouse have many options? Especially in a place like New York City? If the poor work environment exists, getting a new job just helps perpetuate it by letting it settle onto the next person.



I know there are many many warehouses, and other jobs are available.  Does it require some effort and risk to make a change?  Of course.

If you mean to imply that ALL warehouse jobs are equally horrid, then I would suggest that writer missed the point entirely, and should be dealing with warehouse jobs IN GENERAL, rather than on B&H.

I'm still stuck on the complete lack of evidence.  The story is based entirely on what a few disgruntled employees ALLEGED.  No effort expended on digging deeper.  None.


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## The_Traveler

I've seen both bad employers and bad unions so I'm going to continue to buy from B&H until all the facts are in.
Otherwise I'm letting myself be influenced by rumor and one-sided allegations.


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## Braineack

rexbobcat said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> i dont like my job.  i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think people working in a warehouse have many options? Especially in a place like New York City? If the poor work environment exists, getting a new job just helps perpetuate it by letting it settle onto the next person.
Click to expand...


Occupational Safety and Health Administration - Home

Honestly, it sounds like B&H needs to relocate to a different area with a better worker pool.


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## nycphotography

rexbobcat said:


> Something tells me you don't ever actually read Al Jazeera America, because if you did you'd realize that it's probably one of the more high quality sources of news we have in the West.





If THIS is an example of "high quality journalism" then.... I...

I....



Well...



Sorry... I can find no words suitable.


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## waday

Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...


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## limr

Assuming that B&H is guilty based on one article is the same mistake as assuming this to be shody journalism based on one article. Not all details of a lawsuit are available to the press. Maybe there IS evidence of these abuses but we don't get to know about that yet because of the legalities of releasing information and evidence of an ongoing lawsuit. Perhaps they are still tied up in evidentiary hearings and endless motions/legal posturings. Or perhaps the evidence isn't there after all. No one knows this after reading one article. But hey, if you want assume facts and jump to conclusions, knock yourself out.


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## JacaRanda

Would love to see the B&H lawyers grinding this one out.

Interesting read for me, in regards to journalism.  Journalistic objectivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## runnah

Braineack said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> 
> i dont like my job.  i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think people working in a warehouse have many options? Especially in a place like New York City? If the poor work environment exists, getting a new job just helps perpetuate it by letting it settle onto the next person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Occupational Safety and Health Administration - Home
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like B&H needs to relocate to a different area with a better worker pool.
Click to expand...


Sorry dude but you are very much off base.


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## runnah

waday said:


> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...



I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.


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## JacaRanda

runnah said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
Click to expand...

 
It very much seems that way, but video games and other electronic devices are more often the blame for our failing society.


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## vintagesnaps

At least the NY Times article (which I hadn't found when I saw this) explained what's going on, that there's a union interested in coming in and representing their warehouse workers. If there are problems now and have been problems in the past there may be legitimate complaints that need to be addressed.

I'm not just looking at a news source based on one article; I almost majored in journalism and have done and follow sports photojournalism and if I could do better than the posted article (as well as others I've seen from the same source) that tells me their quality is substandard.

I mean, a professional journalist or publication ought to be able to do a better job than me. Describing the company's history as 'long' is subjective, not factual. The fifth paragraph is a run-on sentence with too many commas. If I find myself mentally proofreading and editing then that tells me it's poorly done so I'm not going to find that to be a reliable source (and 5 or so paragraphs is enough).

(Maybe they need this - Associated Press Stylebook - and if they don't know about this much less use it, then I might as well go be a professional journalist, sheesh.)


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## limr

JacaRanda said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It very much seems that way, but video games and other electronic devices are more often the blame for our failing society.
Click to expand...


"Funny" in the sort of "if I don't laugh I should scream" sort of way


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## waday

runnah said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
Click to expand...

How amazingly true this is... and so refreshing to hear others think the same!


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## The_Traveler

runnah said:


> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.



This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.

Edit: it is a kind of bullying by establishing the terms of the arguement and thus excluding someone else from the discussion without  countering their arguement.


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## runnah

The_Traveler said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
> Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
> It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.
Click to expand...


Saying "why don't they find another job" isn't worthy of being called an opinion, it's more of a quip or a dismissal of the issue. Zero thought had gone into that statement. So yeah I am dismissing comments like that.

Its easy for those with a good education, money in the bank and options on the table to say "hey if your job sucks so bad then find another one." when in reality it's much harder than they could possibly imagine.


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## limr

Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.


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## The_Traveler

runnah said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
> Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
> It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Saying "why don't they find another job" isn't worthy of being called an opinion, it's more of a quip or a dismissal of the issue. Zero thought had gone into that statement. So yeah I am dismissing comments like that.
> 
> Its easy for those with a good education, money in the bank and options on the table to say "hey if your job sucks so bad then find another one." when in reality it's much harder than they could possibly imagine.
Click to expand...


Then respond to the person who said it rather than disqualifying anything people as a class say because they have 'privilege.'
That's a kind of prejudice that is maddening because it seems to soft.
My guess is that I am as 'privileged' as anyone here, does that mean that, unless I agree with you, I'm wrong?


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## waday

The_Traveler said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
> Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
> It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.
Click to expand...

I completely disagree with you. Sorry.

Case in point:



nycphotography said:


> I mean, you work in a damn camera store after all, yet you can't manage to get one picture of the said infractions?



Comments such as 'pictures or it didn't happen' is quite ignorant and privileged. What, B&H provides free cameras to all of their workers to report on workplace safety? Yeah....

Case in point:



Mr. Innuendo said:


> Well, there ya' go. If they weren't here, they wouldn't be having these problems.
> 
> I don't want to give this a political slant, but it's part of the article referenced. I've no sympathy for them if their allegations are true (and I don't necessarily believe they are).



No sympathy for other humans? So, it's ok to treat immigrants as garbage, because, you know, they're in this country illegally? Wow. No. Ignorant. Privileged. Wrong. Quite horrible.

Case in point:



Mr. Innuendo said:


> Also, let's consider the source. Al Jazeera being critical of a Jewish owned company?



Let's look at the issue at hand. I don't care if Donald Trump reported it. Are we supposed to ignore the issue just because of the news source? Ignorant comment. Can't be bothered to try to understand the subject at hand? Privileged.

Case in point:



Braineack said:


> i dont like my job. i know, ill complain instead of getting a better one.



Assuming that everyone has the same marketability and can just pick up and change jobs? Privileged and quite ignorant.

Case in point:



nycphotography said:


> Although it would be easy to go with the implied political motives of assuming disengeneous, I rather suspect it is a combination of retarded and lazy. Too retarded to realize they have been lazy in their attempt to present the complete picture required for a balanced story.



Horrible ad hominem attack. Privileged and ignorant to the point that they'd rather attack the news agency than try to understand the content or what is being presented. Who even uses the word 'retarded' anymore? That's quite offensive.

Case in point:



Braineack said:


> Honestly, it sounds like B&H needs to relocate to a different area with a better worker pool.



Do I even need to explain some of these comments and how they're coming from ignorant/privileged standpoints?

I can be ignorant, too! @Braineack, do you mean transfer to another country where the employers don't care about safety, and employees only care about trying to feed their families with the few pennies they make a day doing horrible, horrible work so that us privileged Americans can buy the next tech savvy toy?


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## rexbobcat

The_Traveler said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
> Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
> It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.
> 
> Edit: it is a kind of bullying by establishing the terms of the arguement and thus excluding someone else from the discussion without  countering their arguement.
Click to expand...


Ironically, you are doing the exact same thing by denigrating the word 'privilege' by calling it a buzzword.

It is overused in some circumstances, but in this situation I find it apt.


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## runnah

The_Traveler said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an attempt to denigrate other people's opinion with vague unprovable, general allegations and using the buzzword 'privilege.'
> Similar to what I would be doing if I said that I've found most people from Maine have no real sense of what is going on with the world?
> It is disrespectful of the individual who has responded in good faith with their opinions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Saying "why don't they find another job" isn't worthy of being called an opinion, it's more of a quip or a dismissal of the issue. Zero thought had gone into that statement. So yeah I am dismissing comments like that.
> 
> Its easy for those with a good education, money in the bank and options on the table to say "hey if your job sucks so bad then find another one." when in reality it's much harder than they could possibly imagine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then respond to the person who said it rather than disqualifying anything people as a class say because they have 'privilege.'
> That's a kind of prejudice that is maddening because it seems to soft.
> My guess is that I am as 'privileged' as anyone here, does that mean that, unless I agree with you, I'm wrong?
Click to expand...


I did in a different comment but I didn't want to direct it at anyone, lest I hurt some feelings.

Well don't go turning my generalization into a declarative statement. Of course not all with privilege are rude and oblivious to those below their own status.


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## The_Traveler

limr said:


> Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.



I didn't dismiss privilege as it exists.
I understand it, I have it because I am a well-educated white guy with a solid career.
But dismissing a person's statement indirectly, when they are in the conversation, is disrespectful and is an attempt to make a point by bullying without addressing the issue.


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## runnah

The_Traveler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't dismiss privilege as it exists.
> I understand it, I have it because I am a well-educated white guy with a solid career.
> But dismissing a person's statement indirectly, when they are in the conversation, is disrespectful and is an attempt to make a point by bullying without addressing the issue.
Click to expand...


Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much. I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.


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## waday

runnah said:


> I didn't want to direct it at anyone, lest I hurt some feelings.


Oops...


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## rexbobcat

The_Traveler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Privilege is a buzz word if you have it. It's a very concrete reality to those who don't. This doesn't mean it explains everything or can be used to excuse anyone from doing their best and working hard, but it's incredibly frustrating to see it dismissed by those who don't fully understand what it's like to live life without it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't dismiss privilege as it exists.
> I understand it, I have it because I am a well-educated white guy with a solid career.
> But dismissing a person's statement indirectly, when they are in the conversation, is disrespectful and is an attempt to make a point by bullying without addressing the issue.
Click to expand...


Because this thread was a bastion of respect before that comment.


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## JacaRanda

I don't see bullying.  I saw that Runnah responded directly to the comment by Braineack. Not sure if Braineack's comment was sarcastic or not (hard to tell with him sometimes).


runnah said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
Click to expand...

 
I have the privilege to not be offended by this comment, especially if I am privileged and it does not apply to me.


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## tirediron

runnah said:


> ....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.


The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population.  Those who have it, have, by and large earned it.  They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder".  In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.



runnah said:


> .... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him


And his skin colour matters why in this context?



runnah said:


> ....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers


I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)? 



runnah said:


> ....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.


Why?  There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something.  Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed?  Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible.  There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you.  Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.


----------



## runnah

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.
> 
> 
> 
> The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population.  Those who have it, have, by and large earned it.  They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder".  In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.
> 
> 
> 
> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And his skin colour matters why in this context?
> 
> 
> 
> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)?
> 
> 
> 
> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why?  There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something.  Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed?  Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible.  There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you.  Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.
Click to expand...


1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from. 
2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table". 
4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".


----------



## rexbobcat

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....Fine. Braineack and others, outwardly seems like well educated white males who grew up with means and probably was not left wanting for much.
> 
> 
> 
> The days of "privilege" being a birthright are long gone for all but the very, very smallest fraction of a percent of the population.  Those who have it, have, by and large earned it.  They have wored to get where they are and many (most?) have done manual labour and other unskilled jobs on their way "up the ladder".  In other words, there is opportunity, but it's not going to be thrust at you, it must be earned, and there's no reason why anyone can't earn it.
Click to expand...


Technically, yes. Realistically, no. You are more likely to have better connections the more affluent are you. More connections means an easier time finding employment, and more money also means you are not sweating bullets to pay your rent, so you can be more discriminating with the jobs you take.

While this doesn't necessarily mean that an impoverished person can't become financially successful, it makes it much more difficult and less likely that they will considering that the American public sees the poor as a nuisance as well as the fact that subsisting makes it more difficult to truly thrive.

If you say that everyone who is successful is that way because they deserve it, then that implies that everyone who isn't also deserves it.

The concept that America is a pure meritocracy needs to be abolished.



tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... I may be wrong on this but when some rich white guy like him
> 
> 
> 
> And his skin colour matters why in this context?
Click to expand...


Because race plays a role in the aforementioned privilege. Especially considering that there are still places where this happens:
Confederate Flag Supporters In Georgia Indicted On Terrorism Charges
And this happened back home in Texas:
Texas Tech HSC officials condemn 'intolerant language' graffiti found on TTUHSC seal
This also happened back home:





Privilege is found in more than one place. You are less likely to face discrimination if you are white, male, Christian, and heterosexual. 



tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....comments on how undocumented immigrant laborers
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, and if so, I retract this comment entirely, but is not "undocumented worker" the current vernacular for someone working in the country illegally? That is without papers/work-permit/etc? And does that not make said worker a criminal (conviction aside)?
Click to expand...


I don't understand the point as it pertains to what we're discussing. We're not talking about their legal status. The points being made are about how, because they are here illegally, it's not like they can just find another job.



tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....needs "buck up" or "find a new job" it sends me around the bend. I am sure he works "hard" and does a good job but saying this to some guy who does back breaking labor for 12hrs has as much merit as me sharing my opinion on astro-physics.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  There's a growing trend toward people feeling that employers owe them something.  Other than the agreed upon wage and benefits, etc in exchange for the agreed upon work, what is the employee actually owed?  Granted, it's always nice to work for someone you like, and in a happy, comfortable environment, but that's not always possible.  There are always unpleasant jobs that need to be done, and if you don't like the sort of job that you are being hired for, the only person you can blame is you.  Now if the company is acting illegally, they too need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but I would be very surprised if this was (assuming that the allegations contain at lesat a grain of truth) anything more than a few bad supervisors acting independantly.
Click to expand...


Do you think we should do away with minimum wage laws and health regulations because the corporations will give them livable wages and safe work environments out of the goodness of their hearts?

I'm sure the workers in Apple's Chinese factories would love to hear your thoughts. That is, unless, you think they should just go and find another job.
Apple 'failing to protect Chinese factory workers' - BBC News


----------



## limr

runnah said:


> 1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
> 2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
> 3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
> 4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".



And if I may add to #4 - companies who employ people illegally are also committing criminal acts. Why aren't they being blamed?

Race, gender, and ethnicity still do matter very much. It might not be explicit as in the past, but it's still real and significant.


----------



## waday

limr said:


> And if I may add to #4 - companies who employ people illegally are also committing criminal acts. Why aren't they being blamed?


This is a very good and real question that needs to be asked. Unfortunately, it's easier to blame the worker and turn a blind eye to the company.


----------



## vintagesnaps

Safety and health, yes; has OSHA or any other regulatory agency been called in to look at safety procedures at the warehouse?

There does not seem to be a quick, simple process to get legal status, and I think it is a process; if they don't have legal status yet that doesn't mean safety regulations at a workplace shouldn't be followed but it may complicate trying to get medical care or employee benefits, etc.


----------



## tirediron

runnah said:


> 1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
> 2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
> 3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
> 4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".


1.  Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
2.  Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
3.  Ahh... got it.  Thanks for clarifying.
4.  Safe, yes.  "livable" (as in a wage one can live on, I assume), no.  Fair, yes, livable no.  Of course "livable" varies by region, but in my area the bottom end of "livable", factoring in taxes and so un, would be about $30,000, which works out to around $16/hr.  There are plenty of jobs which are simply not worth $16/hr.  Leave us also remember that the more we force companies to pay for entry-level/unskilled labour, the more we pay for their product/service.


----------



## rexbobcat

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
> 2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
> 3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
> 4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
> 2.  Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
> 3.  Ahh... got it.  Thanks for clarifying.
> 4.  Safe, yes.  "livable" (as in a wage one can live on, I assume), no.  Fair, yes, livable no.  Of course "livable" varies by region, but in my area the bottom end of "livable", factoring in taxes and so un, would be about $30,000, which works out to around $16/hr.  There are plenty of jobs which are simply not worth $16/hr.  Leave us also remember that the more we force companies to pay for entry-level/unskilled labour, the more we pay for their product/service.
Click to expand...


U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938:

In 1938 they said that a minimum wage of $.25/hour would ruin the economy.

Minimum Wage | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

"The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees."


----------



## terri

Buzzkill time!   Buzzkill time!    

Why do I have to enter this thread like a mean old Nurse Ratched with tiny paper cups containing happy pills for everyone?

This is becoming borderline political, at best.    It would be perfect in the Subscriber's forum.   Quick!   Everyone here make sure to subscribe so that if I am forced to move this thread, you can all play along.


----------



## rexbobcat

Wait, where is this going?


----------



## tirediron

rexbobcat said:


> ..."The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees."


 I would submit that neither your federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr, nor most state minimum wages (as low $2.00/hr (OK) to a whopping $10.50/hr (DC)) come even remotely close to filling that requirement!


----------



## cgw

Vote with your $$$ and shop elsewhere. No shortage of other vendors for photo merch.


----------



## limr

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
> 2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
> 2.  Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
> <snip>
Click to expand...


Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. And chances are, if it's not happening to you, you're _not_ going to see it. It reminds me of when I was living in Istanbul. Conversations with Turkish colleagues revealed that they believed there simply were no handicapped people in Istanbul. "I've never seen a handicapped person in my life, so we must not have them." was their reasoning. Meanwhile, the sidewalks, where they existed, were really high and narrow, and almost nothing was handicapped-accessible. Streets were crowded and public transportation was good, but buses were crowded and old. Chances are, there were plenty of handicapped people but they were either not leaving home, or they had private transportation. Either way, they were not very visible to the rest of the population.

These days, discrimination isn't as blatant in most places, but it's still pervasive enough that even a person's name can hold him or her back if it's too "ethnic." I know one data point does not make a theory, but consider a story like this, which got a lot of press but is not the only example of this behavior by far: How One Man Turned His Fruitless Job Search Around By Changing His Name

My last name is Rodrigues. Have I ever lost out on work because of my name? I have no idea. I have no evidence for or against, so I'm not making any claims of discrimination, but I do know it's more likely to have happened to me than to someone whose last name is Jones or Smith.


----------



## JacaRanda

terri said:


> Buzzkill time!   Buzzkill time!
> 
> Why do I have to enter this thread like a mean old Nurse Ratched with tiny paper cups containing happy pills for everyone?
> 
> This is becoming borderline political, at best.    It would be perfect in the Subscriber's forum.   Quick!   Everyone here make sure to subscribe so that if I am forced to move this thread, you can all play along.


 
Meanie!  But I like it


----------



## terri

JacaRanda said:


> Meanie!  But I like it


So good to know.


----------



## runnah

limr said:


> Have I ever lost out on work because of my name? I have no idea. I have no evidence for or against, so I'm not making any claims of discrimination, but I do know it's more likely to have happened to me than to someone whose last name is Jones or Smith.



I personally would never hire a Leonore.


----------



## runnah

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Are you kidding? It very much still matters what family/town/street you are from.
> 2. Race does matter. The deck is still very stack against those who are not white males in most parts of the country.
> 3. Undocumented doesn't always mean illegal, it can mean employers will hire people and pay them "under the table".
> 4. It is the responsibility of an employer to provide a safe, healthy work environment for its employees and to also pay them a livable wage. But not all companies are the moral and will often take liberty with the definitions of "safe" and "livable".
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Okay; I don't see why, but I'll take your word for it.
> 2.  Perhaps this is a national issue; I've certainly seen no evidence of it around me.
> 3.  Ahh... got it.  Thanks for clarifying.
> 4.  Safe, yes.  "livable" (as in a wage one can live on, I assume), no.  Fair, yes, livable no.  Of course "livable" varies by region, but in my area the bottom end of "livable", factoring in taxes and so un, would be about $30,000, which works out to around $16/hr.  There are plenty of jobs which are simply not worth $16/hr.  Leave us also remember that the more we force companies to pay for entry-level/unskilled labour, the more we pay for their product/service.
Click to expand...



1. Let me translate this into Canadian. Say you are born into a family with the fastest sled dogs, but the family across the tundra has slow sled dogs. This means that their family is much more likely to be eaten by wolves. 
2. It's a worldwide issue, check out the struggles of the native population up there. 
3. You're welcome. It's a very serious issue. Undocumented workers are less likely to report unsafe conditions and much more likely to be killed on the job. Being in the construction industry we see lots of this happening in smaller companies. If you get caught hiring undocumented workers you face serious fines.
4. That is a false argument. Jobs are worth what people are willing to pay. More importantly the reason why goods would go up after a wage increase is when those in charge are unwilling to cut profit expectations. Most large companies are expected to earn 10% profit increase year after year. This profit comes from cutting wages and benefits, not by increasing revenue.


----------



## limr

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever lost out on work because of my name? I have no idea. I have no evidence for or against, so I'm not making any claims of discrimination, but I do know it's more likely to have happened to me than to someone whose last name is Jones or Smith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally would never hire a Leonore.
Click to expand...


Totally. We're problematic


----------



## runnah

limr said:


> Totally. We're problematic



Well since you are a film user I assume all Leonores are so that's why you'll get no work from me!


----------



## tirediron

runnah said:


> 1. Let me translate this into Canadian. Say you are born into a family with the fastest sled dogs, but the family across the tundra has slow sled dogs. This means that their family is much more likely to be eaten by wolves.
> 2. It's a worldwide issue, check out the struggles of the native population up there.
> 3. You're welcome. It's a very serious issue. Undocumented workers are less likely to report unsafe conditions and much more likely to be killed on the job. Being in the construction industry we see lots of this happening in smaller companies. If you get caught hiring undocumented workers you face serious fines.
> 4. That is a false argument. Jobs are worth what people are willing to pay. More importantly the reason why goods would go up after a wage increase is when those in charge are unwilling to cut profit expectations. Most large companies are expected to earn 10% profit increase year after year. This profit comes from cutting wages and benefits, not by increasing revenue.


 1.  Exactly when the polar bear is chasing us, I don't have to run fast, just as long as it's faster than you! 
  2.  That is a completely different issue (and, FWIW, as the Canadian born son of Canadian-born parents, I am as native as anyone!), and far more complex.  Also one with which I have first-hand experience.
3.  Makes sense, a company engaging in illlegal trade or labour practices should held accountable.
4.  "Willing to pay" and "forced to pay" are not necessarily the same thing.  That said, I suspect we should agree to disagree on that issue.


----------



## JacaRanda

In case this news was only local to Los Angeles LA Times

Sociology, human nature, shiz happens.  Often shocked, rarely surprised.


----------



## waday

tirediron said:


> 1.  Exactly when the polar bear is chasing us,


----------



## Designer

Dave; why did you post this?  I infer by your title that it is B&H who is totally at fault, and is that the position that we each must take in order to avoid censure?  If someone chooses to take B&H's side, he is beaten down mercilessly. So why is that?  How political does this thread have to be before it is locked?  What has the article to do with photography, aside from the fact that B&H is a well-known retailer that many of us have patronized?  What are we to take away from this article and thread?


----------



## waday

Designer said:


> What has the article to do with photography, aside from the fact that B&H is a well-known retailer that many of us have patronized?


I personally like to know these things about companies I buy from, and B&H is pretty relevant to this forum. For example, to this day, I do not support Wal-Mart, no matter how much they 'roll back prices' with their smiley face.

That said, IMO, there were a couple of comments that led to more comments which led to @terri threatening to take this to the subscriber's forum.

That said said, if we take this to the subscriber's forum, do we get to 



Spoiler



make fun of people behind their back*


 in the subscriber's forum? 

*just kidding... You'll have to subscribe to find out what craziness goes on in there..


----------



## rexbobcat

Designer said:


> Dave; why did you post this?  I infer by your title that it is B&H who is totally at fault, and is that the position that we each must take in order to avoid censure?  If someone chooses to take B&H's side, he is beaten down mercilessly. So why is that?  How political does this thread have to be before it is locked?  What has the article to do with photography, aside from the fact that B&H is a well-known retailer that many of us have patronized?  What are we to take away from this article and thread?



How is it my fault if you censor yourself because of the title? I'm not a mod. It's not like I can delete your responses.


----------



## snerd

Good grief. Only one side allowed here........ the bleeding-heart liberal, white-guilt hand-wringers who see evil around every corner. Just don't post your conservative viewpoint..... you'll get banned, just like I did! I'll be moving on now, you fine folks enjoy your liberal love-fest.


----------



## rexbobcat

snerd said:


> Good grief. Only one side allowed here........ the bleeding-heart liberal, white-guilt hand-wringers who see evil around every corner. Just don't post your conservative viewpoint..... you'll get banned, just like I did! I'll be moving on now, you fine folks enjoy your liberal love-fest.



You forgot to use the word libtard. Also; you get banned because you're viciously combative. This post is exhibit A.


----------



## limr

Oh for crying out loud.

There was no shutting down of opinions or liberal conspiracy to quiet the conservatives. Disagreeing with a position is not the same as shutting it down. And that's what it was - a disagreement and some back and forth from each side defending their relative positions. 

That's called a discussion, folks. A conversations. A debate. A _parley_ if you will.


----------



## Braineack

runnah said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 109820
> 
> Let's play a game to see how many ignorant comments can be made...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that the more privileged the individual the less empathy they have for those without privilege.
Click to expand...


How can I empathize with something I have not experienced?  I have plenty of SYMPATHY for those workers.


I see no empathy for my situation....


----------



## limr

You don't have to have experienced something to empathize with someone. It's kind of the definition of the word: _the psychological identification with or *vicarious* experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another _(emphasis mine.)

And no, I'm not saying you are not allowed to have an opinion, just that it was kind of a weak argument.


----------



## Designer

I used to come home and ***** daily about the people who I worked with, until a certain spousal unit couldn't take it anymore.  I quit, she's still there, and yes, she bitches about the people at work.  

Apparently OSHA has not recognized workplace antagonism as a worker safety issue.  Yet.  

Stuff happens.


----------



## BillM

Just curious how many of you have ever worked in a warehouse. I have, it is not a fun job even if the conditions are good. Just a guess on my part but most are probably doing it and suffering in silence as it is still better than any work they could find where they came from.


----------



## cgw

Time to lock this down? Who needs this fetid stew of allegedly human thought on a photo site anyway? Personal attacks, false assertions, bigotry? No thanks.


----------



## The_Traveler

It is unfortunate that this discussion escalated to where people are putting their entire persona on the line about a situation that we really don't know much about.
I will continue to buy at B&H until I'm satisfied that I know what the real story is, and not just what media wants to make of it.



snerd said:


> Good grief. Only one side allowed here........ the bleeding-heart liberal, white-guilt hand-wringers who see evil around every corner. Just don't post your conservative viewpoint..... you'll get banned, just like I did! I'll be moving on now, you fine folks enjoy your liberal love-fest.



This is really too much. 
So you're only comfortable where people think exactly as you do?
How strong are your positions if just words make you run away?


----------



## Rob5589

In situations like this I always come back to the one thing we can all agree on: Bacon is king! All hail bacon! 

That is all. Carry on...


----------

