# Is film making a comeback or is digital just boring



## Emegra (Nov 21, 2020)

Hi guys
I haven't posted in a while mainly because I haven't had anything to say
but yesterday I took delivery of a camera I bought off ebay a Kiev 4 of 1980 vintage
and what a beautiful machine it is, I haven't been able to shoot with it yet because I haven't got film and it's almost impossible to buy locally but just holding it in my hand is an absolute joy.
The reason I bought it was because I want to go back to basics I don't want auto focus, aperture priority, shutter priority, evaluative metering, Ai servo, blink detection or any other fancy function, available to us on even the most basic digital cameras, I want to learn photography, I want to understand the science 
This camera will help me do that and I don't believe I'm alone, 
Film is making a bit of a comeback but I don't think it's because we want to use film, it because we want to use these cameras, modern digital cameras are amazing, they take all the hard work out of photography but they're boring Canon, Nikon, Sony They're all much of a muchness and they're dumbing down photography, These old film camera may not come close to the quality of images we can take with modern DSLR's or mirrorless camera but they're a lot more fun and a lot more challenging, so from an amateur perspective if photography ceases to be challenging or ceases to be fun is it worth doing


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## Dean_Gretsch (Nov 21, 2020)

If one wants to get back to basics, you still can with digital. Shoot in full manual mode and only shoot ONE shot of that incredible scene before you. It would be feast or famine just like film days with one exception : the cost.


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## Emegra (Nov 21, 2020)

Yeah Dean I can't argue with the cost thing, you got me there


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## 480sparky (Nov 21, 2020)

How to 'shoot film' with a DSLR:

1. Turn off image review so you can't chimp.
2. Take only 24 or 36 shots per memory card.
3. Take the card with 24 or 36 shots out, and don't put it in your computer for a week.
4. If you want to use a 'digital darkroom' to 'develop your own film',  shoot raw format.  Otherwise, shoot JPEG for 'snapshots'.


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## Emegra (Nov 21, 2020)

I think you might be missing the point Sparky
what I was trying to say in my post is it's not all about the film process it's the cameras


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## Ysarex (Nov 21, 2020)

Emegra said:


> I think you might be missing the point Sparky
> what I was trying to say in my post is it's not all about the film process it's the cameras



Get one of these. Feels more like a film camera than a film camera. Manual focus and exposure controls, built like a tank. People will think it's a film camera if they see you with it (I'm sure). And for what you're going to spend for film and processing it's even cheap.


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## dxqcanada (Nov 21, 2020)




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## cgw (Nov 21, 2020)

Emegra said:


> Hi guys
> I haven't posted in a while mainly because I haven't had anything to say
> but yesterday I took delivery of a camera I bought off ebay a Kiev 4 of 1980 vintage
> and what a beautiful machine it is, I haven't been able to shoot with it yet because I haven't got film and it's almost impossible to buy locally but just holding it in my hand is an absolute joy.
> ...



OK, so your point is? Great, you bought an old Russian rangefinder. $hitty, boring, utterly pedestrian images are all within your grasp--as if they aren't already with the latest overdraft bait from major makers. Knock yourself out.


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## 480sparky (Nov 21, 2020)

Emegra said:


> I think you might be missing the point Sparky
> what I was trying to say in my post is it's not all about the film process it's the cameras



You missed the point of my post as well.


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## webestang64 (Nov 21, 2020)

This thread is doomed.


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## Emegra (Nov 21, 2020)

"This thread is doomed."
It certainly is, 
I've no idea where all this hate is coming from 
For god sake people lighten up I was only trying put forward a point of discussion, I thought this was a photography forum but if it's upsetting people that much, delete the whole thread


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## cgw (Nov 21, 2020)

Hate? More like weariness. And then there's the bizarre sense of entitlement(and pique) that anyone could possibly disagree with your "declaration." We all like our toys--that much is settled. Let's leave it there.


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## dxqcanada (Nov 21, 2020)

Yes, not hate as mentioned.
I personally don't think Digital cameras are dumming us down.
Same thing was said when Auto Exposure was first introduced in film cameras ... then the whole Auto Focus thing ... then there was multipoint metering ... etc ... (1968 first AE SLR ... 1983 first AE matrix metering ... 1985 first integrated AF SLR) 
I think Digital cameras have made more photographers willing to try non-automatic modes as it doesn't cost anything to do so.
As an old film shooter ... every shot costs $.
Personally I have taken some great shots on "vintage" film cameras that rival my digital stuff ... actually, my film cameras uses the same lenses as my digital cameras ... and I still find that many of my "vintage" slide film images are awesome ... and don't get us started on large format film.


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## dxqcanada (Nov 21, 2020)

Actually your post reminded me of a YouTube video that I recently looked at of someone was describing a Miniature Speed Graphic ... I made a comment, and now the video is unlisted ... hmm.


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## smoke665 (Nov 21, 2020)

I think the "weariness" that CGW talks about above comes from the fact that these Film vs Digital debates crop up on a fairly regular basis, and quickly descend into arguments for which there is no winner. I started in film in the 60's, and there's probably a dozen rolls of  Ilford in the refrigerator that's been there at least 3 years. 



Emegra said:


> The reason I bought it was because I want to go back to basics I don't want auto focus, aperture priority, shutter priority, evaluative metering, Ai servo, blink detection or any other fancy function, available to us on even the most basic digital cameras, I want to learn photography, I want to understand the science



Unless you are seriously consistent with note taking while shooting film, learning will be a long process as you forget from the time you took the shot till the film is processed.  Just because you have "all those fancy functions" doesn't mean you have to use a single one of them. In studio I'm on full manual with manual focus, but guess what?? In the blink of an eye I can still have an image showing up that lets me adjust on the fly. Try that with film camera.



Emegra said:


> These old film camera may not come close to the quality of images



WTH by whose definition????? I've seen beautiful work with nothing more than a simple pin hole camera. Not much more basic you can get. Quality is an ambiguous term, that has little relevance in a comparison of tools when they're in the hands of a master at the craft.



Emegra said:


> so from an amateur perspective if photography ceases to be challenging or ceases to be fun is it worth doing



Now this I can agree with you on. It's all about the journey, if you're not challenging yourself to learn then it is boring. So if film floats your boat go for it. There are some fabulous photographers on here that shoot, film, and will not hesitate to help you along in your journey. By all means post up some of your shots with film we'll never grow weary of looking at them.


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## pixmedic (Nov 21, 2020)

rangefinder? roll film? pfffff. _*boring*_. 
wet plate or nothing.


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

"Hate? More like weariness. And then there's the bizarre sense of entitlement(and pique) that anyone could possibly disagree with your "declaration." We all like our toys--that much is settled. Let's leave it there. "

Ok "hate" wasn't a good choice of word I agree, "rage" may have been better,
I was only expressing an opinion, nowhere did I give a sense of entitlement that everyone should agree with me, you invented that, if it made you wearie you could have ignored it but clearly couldn't resist the temptation to draw attention to your all knowing all important self,
I wasn't suggesting anyone throw away their digital cameras and go back to film it's certainly not something I intend to do, I was only trying to make the point that these old film cameras can still have a place and be fun to use if that enrages you (which it clearly does) then I suggest you get help
Lets leave it there.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2020)

I got into photography about 6 years ago that started with a D3300. I was having difficulty and got a mentor. He was frustrated with me and loaned me his Nikon F with no meter. I then bought a XT2 because it worked similar to a Nikon F. Today I shoot more film than digital because I like the process and can afford it. I still suck at photography but I have been having a lot of fun. Shoot with whatever you want, have fun, and don't take yourself to seriously. There is something very satisfying with all manual control as it forces you to slow down. 

Film is not on a comeback, it just isn't completely dead yet. If it weren't for social media, I doubt film would be where it is at today... almost dead. As far as this thread, make some popcorn... at the end of the day, photography is the same. It doesn't matter if it's on digital or emulsion.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2020)

Straight out of camera... this sucks but I was having fun. Severely expired, poorly kept film. Curly, brittle, and a pain in the ass to deal with but man that frustration is exhilarating! I don't think I could have duplicated this with digital in camera..


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

Hi jc
Like you I don't consider myself particularly good at photography but I enjoy it nonetheless in all it's forms and I try to be as good as I can be , I agree film will never replace digital now it's an old technology, but I still think it has a place and it allows us to use these old cameras with all their quirks and restrictions and the point I was trying to make (not very well apparently)  was in doing so could make us better photographers.  I'll concede I might be wrong but even if I am they're a lot of fun to use


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## zombiesniper (Nov 22, 2020)

The reason I think you're getting pushback are the whole negative attitude your post has along with these two comments.



Emegra said:


> The reason I bought it was because I want to go back to basics I don't want auto focus, aperture priority, shutter priority, evaluative metering, Ai servo, blink detection or any other fancy function, available to us on even the most basic digital cameras, I want to learn photography, I want to understand the science
> This camera will help me do that and I don't believe I'm alone,



All of the things you mentioned can be turned off. Pretty simple, just don't use them.



Emegra said:


> modern digital cameras are amazing, they take all the hard work out of photography but they're boring Canon, Nikon, Sony They're all much of a muchness and they're dumbing down photography,



This is a poorly worded statement. If you actually think you can only learn more with a film camera then you're kidding yourself.
Or are you suggesting merely because I drive an older car with manual window cranks and a manual transmission I can magically learn operate windows or drive better?



Emegra said:


> Ok "hate" wasn't a good choice of word I agree, "rage" may have been better,



At no point have I seen "rage" in this thread. If you perceive it as rage that's a you problem, not ours.


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

"All of the things you mentioned can be turned off. Pretty simple, just don't use them."
Ok fair point but they can easily be switched on again right ?

"This is a poorly worded statement. If you actually think you can only learn more with a film camera then you're kidding yourself.
Or are you suggesting merely because I drive an older car with manual window cranks and a manual transmission I can magically learn operate windows or drive better?"
Where did I say it's the ONLY way to learn, are you saying people who restore old vintage cars do it to be better drivers ?

"At no point have I seen "rage" in this thread. If you perceive it as rage that's a you problem, not ours."

Ok so what would you call it ? and incidentally who's the "ours" in this context is there some wee club on this forum I don't know about ? can I join ?


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## smoke665 (Nov 22, 2020)

Emegra said:


> I was only expressing an opinion, nowhere did I give a sense of entitlement that everyone should agree with me



It's very likely you did it unintentionally, in the excitement of your new purchase, but without so much as even taking the first shot you summarily dismissed digital users, even suggesting that they were "dumbed down" somehow, and film was superior.  This is the part that riles many and whether intentional or not has that same old  elitist attitude that the film vs digital debates ultimately descend into. It's not the tools that distinguish the art, it's the artist. 

Your dismisal of digital in addition to other things already brought up, discounts the fact that when you convert 35mm film to pixel resolution you only get somewhere between 4-16 MP, well below even a modern APS-C sensor. What about noise vs grain? Ever compared a high ISO digital to a high ISO film. I routinely shoot at ISOs up to 12,800 and the K1MII has just shy of 1 million ISO while the new K3III is reported to have 1.6 million ISO. What about dynamic range? Even Kodak claims the dynamic range on most film is around 12 stops at most, while digital is hitting 15 stops and above. What about shake reduction? I'm hand holding at slow shutter speeds unheard of with a film camera thanks to the marvel of digital that gives me 5 axis shake reduction of up to 5 stops. I bring up these points to illustrate that generalized comparisons are never good, especially in a group of experienced people. It's fairly certain that you'll be called to task on it.

Rather than naively making generalizations that lack merit, I think you'll find that we all like to read aboout the experiences of others with new processes, equipment, etc, because like you we all want to learn. Tell us about the camera, tell us about the journey, speak on "your" experiences.


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## zombiesniper (Nov 22, 2020)

Emegra said:


> Ok fair point but they can easily be switched on again right ?



Yes it can...your point? My point was people don't need to waste money to learn "the basics" or "the science" of photography. The capability to learn complete manual is already there. Additionally the settings can be turned back on when the user is ready to explore more.



Emegra said:


> Where did I say it's the ONLY way to learn, are you saying people who restore old vintage cars do it to be better drivers ?



Kind of implied it here. The car restoration is normally for the love of the car. You didn't make that distinction. You just crapped on modern cameras without any real additional context.



Emegra said:


> modern digital cameras are amazing, they take all the hard work out of photography but they're boring






Emegra said:


> Ok so what would you call it ? and incidentally who's the "ours" in this context is there some wee club on this forum I don't know about ? can I join ?



I would call it people that don't agree with you. Nothing more. Your perception may be different. If you think this is rage....you may want to get off of the internet.

The ours I spoke of was the collective internet. We are not responsible for your perception of things or to coddle to your perception of things. That's solely for you to manage.


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

It's very likely you did it unintentionally, in the excitement of your new purchase, but without so much as even taking the first shot you summarily dismissed digital users, even suggesting that they were "dumbed down" somehow, and film was superior. This is the part that riles many and whether intentional or not has that same old elitist attitude that the film vs digital debates ultimately descend into. It's not the tools that distinguish the art, it's the artist.

Ok hopefully to put this to bed, I did not dismiss digital users for god sake read what I said I'm a digital user myself and have no intention of moving away from it and I never said one was superior over the other and even if I did why should it incur such venom, we're all photography enthusiasts are we not isn't film a part of that  ?

If I suggested digital users were dumbed down (which I didn't intend to do ) then I have to include myself in that , I'm not an elitist I just love photography in all it's forms digital & film alike which is why I joined this forum I wasn't aware there was a war between the 2 when I put up the post and if that's what this forum is about I'll see this thread out and leave because quite frankly I've had enough of this shite


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

Ok hopefully this is an end to this thread 
I have only one request, can someone please tell me how I delete my account I've been through all the settings and I can't figure it out.
Maybe I'm missing the obvious I don't know but any help would be appreciated


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## 480sparky (Nov 22, 2020)

You can't delete it.  Mods and Admin can't either.  It's just the way the forum software is made.


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

Ok thanks Sparky


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## smoke665 (Nov 22, 2020)

Emegra said:


> , I did not dismiss digital users



Such is the downside of forum discussions which is why I gave you the benefit of the doubt that the message you "implied" was unintentional.



Emegra said:


> I never said one was superior over the other and even if I did why should it incur such venom,



Again same as above, your comment strongly implied. As to venom, I think you're mistaking disagreement with venom. This is a photography forum where discussions on all things photography take place, you'll find those who agree with you, those who disagree with you and those who have strong opinions on subjects, film vs digital being one of those. Even impling one is better than the other is like waving a red flag in front of a bull, someone is going to charge you. So now you know, unless you have thick skin and are willing to debate the subject without getting your feelings hurt, it's one of those subject best avoided, because the comments here so far are mild compared to some of the heated discussions I've seen on here.

Hopefully you'll reconsider deleting your account and  give us your thoughts and examples of images taken with the Kiev.


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## Emegra (Nov 22, 2020)

Smoke I appreciate you used the term "unintentional" it didn't go unnoticed, then you go on and accuse me of being thin skinned, another straw man accusation, 
You don't know me if you did you would never accuse me of that, my feelings are not hurt Smoke I've dealt with bigger bullies in my life than this forum has to offer .
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, I actually quite like a healthy argument, what I don't like is being accused of saying things I didn't say do you ?, 
almost every word I posted has been misconstrued  and taken out of context by sad pathetic individuals with a burning need to draw attention to themselves.

I can accept I maybe didn't word my post well my mastery of the English language maybe isn't all it could be but I meant nobody any insult or disrespect and I have not once had the benefit of the doubt from anyone.

Sadly I can't reconsider deleting my account Smoke because it seems I can't delete my account so you're stuck with me

Sorry guys


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## smoke665 (Nov 22, 2020)

Emegra said:


> hen you go on and accuse me of being thin skinned, another straw man accusation,
> You don't know me if you did you would never accuse me of that,



This is the problem with internet comments without benefit of face to face interaction, every comment can be taken out of context depending on how you read it. I didn't accuse "you" - specifically my full text "*unless *you have thick skin and *are w**illing *to debate the subject without getting your feelings hurt, it's one of those subject best avoided." I meant it's a general requirement of debating controversial subjects on an internet forum. See how easy it is to misconstrue intended meanings?  

TPF is not a social media, pat you on the back and make you feel good kind of site. There are a few not so nice people (that's what the Block feature is for) but by and large the criticism is meant to enlighten and not harm. Over time I assure you that you will learn a lot.

Likewise I never intended to offend you, nor was every word you've posted misconstrued (on my part), I think I even agreed with you on some of it. I also don't see it as bad thing that you can't delete your account, one hiccup doesn't have to define the future.


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## Overread (Nov 22, 2020)

Emegra said:


> Sadly I can't reconsider deleting my account Smoke because it seems I can't delete my account so you're stuck with me
> 
> Sorry guys



A few clarifications
1) We can delete profiles, however we typically only reserve that treatment for spambots. Regular user accounts are not generally deleted because they can mess with the sites structure, organisation and flow of the site. It also helps avoid people pulling flounce tricks and other issues. That said you can edit your post content at any time if you so choose. 

2) If you want to leave you can simply change your registered email in your settings to a random string of letters and numbers "@" a random string of letters and number and you won't get email notifications any more; then just log out and delete the link in your browser.

I would hope that one small miscommunication and discussion wouldn't drive you off the site. Part of being within a community is learning to tolerate, appreciate and accept different points of view from your own. Many times there is no correct answer, just variations in opinion and viewpoint. Sharing those ideas is healthy and good and its why many of us choose to come to a community site as opposed to, perhaps, more "like/favourite" orientated galleries with limited conversation options. 



smoke665 said:


> TPF is not a social media, pat you on the back and make you feel good kind of site. There are a few not so nice people (that's what the Block feature is for) but by and large the criticism is meant to enlighten and not harm. Over time I assure you that you will learn a lot.



1) If you feel you are being insulted/harassed or otherwise abused use the REPORT function first (lower left corner of a post). In the little window that appears type the reason for your report (its a big window but it only shows small so you can go into as much detail as you need). This will then let the mods see that post you've reported and, most importantly, your reason (since we too can interpret things differently). 

2) The block feature is also present for when you have issues with a user that you cannot otherwise resolve. It lets you soft ignore their posts on the site (you will still see the slot it takes and can click to reveal it, butin general it will be hidden content).


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2020)

I forgot to put butter on it...


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## terri (Nov 22, 2020)

webestang64 said:


> This thread is doomed.


Yeah, I wish someone would have remembered that, as a TPF guideline:

"No digital vs. film/traditional arguments or debates are allowed. We have separate forums where the virtues of both mediums are discussed. No provoking comments will be tolerated."  

Unfortunately, the OP was seemingly unaware of this guideline and apparently several other members were, too.  This thread is a perfect example of why we added the rule.  

Everyone shoots in a manner that suits them best.  Making general declarations about why their way is superior is going to needlessly ruffle feathers.

In the future, if you come across a thread like this, please report it!   Thanks.


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## compur (Nov 22, 2020)

A scholarly debate of film vs digital:


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## Emegra (Nov 23, 2020)

"Unfortunately, the OP was seemingly unaware of this guideline and apparently several other members were, too. This thread is a perfect example of why we added the rule."

It would be fair to say I was unaware of this guideline but that said my original post had nothing to do with film v digital, I wasn't advocating one over the other, people should read things before they comment on them.
It was turned into a film v digital argument mainly by cgw who clearly wanted it to be a film v digital argument
I only suggested that using old film cameras could improve our photography and give us a better understanding of the science, nobody had to agree but it's possible to respectfully disagree with someone without being nasty.
I think it's quite sad that there has to be such a guideline because quite honestly if something as unimportant in life as film or digital got me as wound up as it clearly gets cgw and some other posters on here then I'd be taking a long hard look at myself


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## zombiesniper (Nov 23, 2020)

The thread title is an obvious film vs digital statement.


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## Overread (Nov 23, 2020)

I think we are now going in circles and getting no where positive nor productive. I think its time to draw this to a close, put a line under it and let us all move on. 

No punishments, no winners and no losers; just a difference of opinion and lets move on to move exciting and interesting things like the photos we get from our tools.


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