# Advice from a professional



## bace (May 14, 2014)

Ok, so you take great pictures.

Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.

Get away from listening to people unless you truly admire their work. Ask specific people about your work. Don't ask strangers. The anger and time you put into talking with these people would be better spent googling what it is you want to learn and doing it.

Apprentice or assist for a pro. I learned what a professional does at a shoot. How they act. How they keep their cool. What they use gear wise, and how I could do the same with way less.

You're you own best critic. You know what style of photography you want to shoot, so learn. Keep shooting, ask people how to achieve that look. Ask photographers you find on facebook. Whatever. Stop asking a general population of severely under-qualified people.

I had some great times on forums being a troll years ago. A soon as I stopped posting on forums my life got better. Forums are a hole for trolling and bull****. And the anger it builds inside from ****ty comments from people is just not worth it. Who needs that kind of negativity on their shoulders.

If anyone wants to ask a personal question you can contact me on my site.

I'll probably be banned or this post will be removed soon so, peace out!

Paul


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## tirediron (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> ...Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.


I don't really think that's fair comment; TPF has some VERY skilled and knowledgable photographers who spend a LOT of time helping others.  



bace said:


> ...I'll probably be banned or this post will be removed soon so, peace out!


Sorry... today's not your day to become a martyr!


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

You raise great points!

I often get flack for saying that I only value the feedback I get from certain members whose work I hold in high esteem. But it's true, if I don't like your work or technique then why should I take what you say about mine as gospel? Granted there is a certain value in getting feedback from a "general" audience, but it shouldn't cloud your view on your own work.

If I get a positive comment from one of the folks on here that I respect it means more than 100 pages of praise, more so if they are a master of a similar subject.


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## wyogirl (May 14, 2014)

I too have to disagree.  I have gotten a lot of help from TPF and have seen drastic improvement all because some strangers didn't feel the need to sugar coat my "problem areas". I will however say that certain contributors comments carry more weight that others.


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## Rosy (May 14, 2014)

hmmm - nice way to start the day... As for ME - I might not be great but I am better thanks to those who have taken THEIR time to help me. 

Special thanks to those, TOOOO many to mention!


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I don't really think that's fair comment; TPF has some VERY skilled and knowledgable photographers who spend a LOT of time helping others.



I disagree. I have been here long enough to see people come in who have limited skills, but then stay around long enough to parrot what they see other more informed people posting and play themselves off as "experts".


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## Braineack (May 14, 2014)

my mom says im special.


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## Rosy (May 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> my mom says im special.



I'm still taking your clients..called your mom.  She thinks I'm MORE special than you


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## Big Mike (May 14, 2014)

> I had some great times on forums being a troll years ago


Some things never change.  :roll:


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Once finished, please return all worms to the Can-O-Worms.


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## limr (May 14, 2014)

I'm curious...and will probably regret asking this, but...what qualifies someone to give critique?


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## TamiAz (May 14, 2014)

Sorry, I disagree.. I've grown a lot as a photographer in the last 2.5 years by hanging around this forum. I highly doubt anyone is worried about their competition on here.


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## Designer (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> Ok, so you take great pictures.


If a poster takes great pictures, how would accepting critique do any harm?


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

tirediron said:


> bace said:
> 
> 
> > ...Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.
> ...



I guess my thought is I really don't care who gives me advice, if it's something I can use and benefit from that's great, if it's not I thank them for their time and move on. I've gotten a lot of really helpful information here. I guess it helps if you approach things with an open mind and realize that you can quite often learn from people of all skill levels. A guy doesn't have to be a bonafide expert with a dozen degrees in art to get me pointed in the right direction for things like the rule of thirds, etc. 



bace said:


> ...I'll probably be banned or this post will be removed soon so, peace out!





tirediron said:


> Sorry... today's not your day to become a martyr!



Hmm.. not today then. Ok, how about .. lets see.. Thursday of next week? Thursday's would work good for my schedule at least.. lol


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

limr said:


> I'm curious...and will probably regret asking this, but...what qualifies someone to give critique?



My take is that anyone can give a critique, but it's up the artist to filter out who to listen to and who to not.

For example, are you going to take developing advice from someone who has never done it before? I have personally spent very little time in a darkroom and when I did it was only BW. So knowing that would you take my advice on your technique?


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Observation - you don't have to agree with all critique posted - and its possible to disagree and indeed debate critique in a polite and civilised manner. It's only a fight if you decide to fight; no one forces you to fight nor react hostly its purely your choice as a person.


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

limr said:


> I'm curious...and will probably regret asking this, but...what qualifies someone to give critique?



Well, they need to be trustworthy, loyal, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Umm.. no, wait, that qualifes them to be a good boyscout.  Sorry, wrong list.. lol


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Observation - you don't have to agree with all critique posted - and its possible to disagree and indeed debate critique in a polite and civilised manner. It's only a fight if you decide to fight; no one forces you to fight nor react hostly its purely your choice as a person.



Ok, so what your saying is killing that guy with a trident may have been a bit over the top?  Whoops.. lol


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## tirediron (May 14, 2014)

limr said:


> I'm curious...and will probably regret asking this, but...what qualifies someone to give critique?


Having the ability to express an opinion.


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## tirediron (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really think that's fair comment; TPF has some VERY skilled and knowledgable photographers who spend a LOT of time helping others.
> ...


I'm not saying we're all experts, but there are a few members, most of whom stick to their chosen area, who really know their s**t and do help others...  yes, we have more than a few 'I can parrot the party line and look important' types too.


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## limr (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious...and will probably regret asking this, but...what qualifies someone to give critique?
> ...



Fair enough. If someone is asking specifically for feedback on a technique, then yes, I'll really only pay attention to those who have some skill in that technique. But people ask for critique for different reasons or for different aspects of the photo. If someone asks for general thoughts about if a picture 'works' or not, do I need to be qualified to decide if something works for me or not? Do I need to be able to explain exactly _why_ it doesn't work for me to make me qualified? I'm just curious about where the line is, and if that line is permanent or if it shifts depending on the kind of critique a person is asking for.


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I'm not saying we're all experts, but there are a few members, most of whom stick to their chosen area, who really know their s**t and do help others...  yes, we have more than a few 'I can parrot the party line and look important' types too.



Thats what I said. I know who to seek out for certain genres and I value their opinion most of all.


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

limr said:


> Fair enough. If someone is asking specifically for feedback on a technique, then yes, I'll really only pay attention to those who have some skill in that technique. But people ask for critique for different reasons or for different aspects of the photo. If someone asks for general thoughts about if a picture 'works' or not, do I need to be qualified to decide if something works for me or not? Do I need to be able to explain exactly _why_ it doesn't work for me to make me qualified? I'm just curious about where the line is, and if that line is permanent or if it shifts depending on the kind of critique a person is asking for.



Like I said, you can get a general opinion but take it just for that. I ALWAYS look at the work of someone who is commenting on my stuff and add that into the equation when internalizing their feedback.

I mean if all my stuff was poorly composed and out of focus would you take my comments on your composition and focus seriously?


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## Msteelio91 (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> ...the anger it builds inside from ****ty comments from people is just not worth it. Who needs that kind of negativity on their shoulders.



Who the hell lets some random people on the internet get to them that much? Lol


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. If someone is asking specifically for feedback on a technique, then yes, I'll really only pay attention to those who have some skill in that technique. But people ask for critique for different reasons or for different aspects of the photo. If someone asks for general thoughts about if a picture 'works' or not, do I need to be qualified to decide if something works for me or not? Do I need to be able to explain exactly _why_ it doesn't work for me to make me qualified? I'm just curious about where the line is, and if that line is permanent or if it shifts depending on the kind of critique a person is asking for.
> ...



If your stuff was also poorly composed and out of focus, then yup.. I probably would recommend you take that as a good tip.  Now if they start describing their method for composing/focusing and you've looked at their work and dislike the results, then yup - you should probably disregard that portion and move on.


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

Msteelio91 said:


> bace said:
> 
> 
> > ...the anger it builds inside from ****ty comments from people is just not worth it. Who needs that kind of negativity on their shoulders.
> ...



Exactly.  I mean once you get all the sound legal advice you need from them it's time to walk away.. rotfl


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## Designer (May 14, 2014)

Thoughts?


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## Braineack (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Like I said, you can get a general opinion but take it just for that. I ALWAYS look at the work of someone who is commenting on my stuff and add that into the equation when internalizing their feedback.
> 
> I mean if all my stuff was poorly composed and out of focus would you take my comments on your composition and focus seriously?


I did the same thing when I stopped listening to yours!


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## Virgil (May 14, 2014)

Basically the OP stated what i said a few days ago. Some of u guys know what you're talking about and some dont.. My biggest problem is seeing someone tell someone else that their photo is crap and then i go look at THEIR flickr site and realize that person has no business critiquing anyones photos. I looked at a couple of flickr sites a few days ago and really could not believe how some of these people had the nerve to c&c anybody's photos. Photography is a form of art, and as long as it is "technically" correct everything else is just preference.. If everbody likeed the same framing and contrast it would sure be a boring world..


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## Derrel (May 14, 2014)

So, it's like that famous bumper sticker and now, internet meme.

*"Only God can judge me."*

Right????


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## limr (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. If someone is asking specifically for feedback on a technique, then yes, I'll really only pay attention to those who have some skill in that technique. But people ask for critique for different reasons or for different aspects of the photo. If someone asks for general thoughts about if a picture 'works' or not, do I need to be qualified to decide if something works for me or not? Do I need to be able to explain exactly _why_ it doesn't work for me to make me qualified? I'm just curious about where the line is, and if that line is permanent or if it shifts depending on the kind of critique a person is asking for.
> ...



Probably not, assuming your stuff is blurry because you don't know how to focus. Some people like intentionally blurry pictures.  In that case, it's not a technical error but an artistic choice. I still might dismiss your opinion, but I'd consider it more seriously than if you clearly just didn't know what you were doing.

Again, this is feedback that focuses (no pun intended!) on skill/technique. So technical ability helps define the "line." 

What about a person whose style you just don't like, even if their technical ability is strong?


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

Derrel said:


> So, it's like that famous bumper sticker and now, internet meme.
> 
> *"Only God can judge me."*
> 
> Right????



Well apparently only if He happens to have a really nice portfolio on Flickr.  Otherwise.. lol


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## Mike_E (May 14, 2014)

Glad I stopped in here.

So, if we're going to have an internet contest I can pee 45 feet.





Really though the biggest favor anyone ever did for me was to show me how to deconstruct a photo and see how it was made and what made it work or fail -not because I may have missed a convergence point but what one was and why it was important.

Maybe it really is me (I hate autotuned music too) but I could give a rat's left lower whisker to see the same photo over and over again.  No one is really just the same, go out and do different work.


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## Steve5D (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> Ok, so you take great pictures.
> 
> Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.
> 
> ...



That was funny...


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## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

Mike_E said:


> Glad I stopped in here.
> 
> So, if we're going to have an internet contest I can pee 45 feet.



Wow.  Ok, so since this is the internet won't we have to convert that to meters too for those crazy folks using the metric system?



> Really though the biggest favor anyone ever did for me was to show me how to deconstruct a photo and see how it was made and what made it work or fail -not because I may have missed a convergence point but what one was and why it was important.



I get all sorts of helpful tidbits and advice from the forum, and a lot of it isn't even so much people critiquing my photos persee but reading critiques on other people's photos or reading answers to various questions.  I don't really concern myself with whether or not someone has a style I like or a portfolio that is simply stunning - I read what they have to say and if it's something I can apply I do - if not I move on.


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## Warhorse (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> Ok, so you take great pictures.
> 
> Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.
> 
> ...



:lmao:


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## photoguy99 (May 14, 2014)

The internet is great for technical feedback. Why are my pictures out of focus? How can I light my pictures like LifeTouch? And so on.

What's bad about the internet is that posting pictures to any particular venue leads pretty much inevitably to a popularity contest. You can resist, in which case you're just posting pictures that everyone ignores. Or, you can join in.

Once you get past the technical hurdles and start getting in to matters of taste and style, you're purely into the popularity contest. Every venue will claim to be offering Objective Critique, usually based on the methods and ideas of Thee Olde Painterse, Like Rembrandt (for some reason it's always Rembrandt). They're wrong. And here's how to tell:

If you pay attention, and are a reasonably competent technician, you can fairly rapidly begin to churn out work that a given venue likes. You simply shoot as if the venue (TPF, whatever flickr group you selected, 500px similarly, whatever) were a client. Listen to their critique, integrate it into what you're doing, and pretty soon you should be doing pretty well in whatever ranking there is. People will like your work.

Do this in several venues at the same time. It's not terribly difficult. You might not become one of the Annointed, but you can probably produce pretty well-liked work pretty consistently, without much effort. If you can't, time to go back to the woodshed and up your skills. Assuming this is a thing you want to do.

Now start cross-posting pictures. Pictures that people like in one venue are quite likely to be hated in the other, and vice versa, with both venues claiming when pressed that Rembrandt's theories of Art prove that Your Recent Photograph is garbage.

It's a popularity contest, after a certain point.

Ok, so what? If they buy prints off you and you want to sell prints, well then, spot on mate! If, on the other hand, you find that you've sold your soul for a handful of +1s and Follows, well, you might want to reconsider.

So, my advice, which together with a couple bucks will buy you a coffee, is to use the internet for technical help, but walk away when it becomes about Art or Taste or Style. When you can consistently "shoot to please the client" then bail out and start doing your own work. The internet hasn't got much else to teach you.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (May 14, 2014)

Well someone has their knickers in a twist. I love this forum. I hated it when I started, pulling out the tissues everytime in got my work beheaded in the public confines of the internet, but I give this forum much deserved credit for molding me over the past months. My work, my editing and my business has all improved because of the jerks ripping my newb head off. Some people take hard criticism and learn from it, striving to prove the jerks wrong. Other start a thread labeled "Advice from a Professional."


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## Derrel (May 14, 2014)

Like many things, a person gets OUT only as much as he or she is willing to put INTO the endeavor. 

If a person shows up someplace only to criticise the entire place, and then in almost the same breath, solicits the group's members for off-list, one-on-one inquiry responses, I reallllllly have to wonder what the story is behind that person's motivation.

So, to recap: Come in, bad-mouth the whole place and its members, and then in the same post, offer to be "_the voice of experience_" on one's OWN, external web site. Incredibly poor form, on multiple counts. Really. Bad. Form. Or, as one might call it, "Advice from a professional."


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Observation - you don't have to agree with all critique posted - and its possible to disagree and indeed debate critique in a polite and civilised manner. It's only a fight if you decide to fight; no one forces you to fight nor react hostly its purely your choice as a person.



Logic or simplicity or acting like an adult is not allowed.  You are banned!


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

Msteelio91 said:


> bace said:
> 
> 
> > ...the anger it builds inside from ****ty comments from people is just not worth it. Who needs that kind of negativity on their shoulders.
> ...



Some of us have issues and need lots of tissues.


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## mishele (May 14, 2014)

What is the definition of "Professional"?


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## e.rose (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> Ok, so you take great pictures.
> 
> Stop listening to peers. 80% don't know sh!t around here. 10% do and don't help because they don't need the competition and the other 10% are busy working and feel like your work is fine anyway.
> 
> ...





runnah said:


> You raise great points!
> 
> I often get flack for saying that I only value the feedback I get from certain members whose work I hold in high esteem. But it's true, if I don't like your work or technique then why should I take what you say about mine as gospel? Granted there is a certain value in getting feedback from a "general" audience, but it shouldn't cloud your view on your own work.
> 
> If I get a positive comment from one of the folks on here that I respect it means more than 100 pages of praise, more so if they are a master of a similar subject.



IIIIIIIIIIII... actually agree with this.

When I first started out and was TOTALLY clueless, ANY critique was totally valuable to me. But as I learned and grew, I learned to flush out the valuable critique from the BS.

Then I hit a point where I was nothing but frustrated after posting here.

It seemed like nothing I did was good enough and I was getting almost a little depressed, so I stopped coming to the forum for a while, and after that hiatus, I came back, posted a new set, and it was met with, "HOLY SH*T, ROSE! What happened to you? These are great!"

I left. I stopped listening to general feedback. I found other outlets for learning and critique, I trusted my instincts and my vision... and I got better.

Now, I still have a WAAAAAAYS to go with my skill level, and while I still post here for critique from time to time, I'd be TOTALLY lying if I said there weren't certain members who I held in higher esteem than others.

I also take critique on here with a grain of salt. I don't dismiss it... I always consider what the comment is saying, but I will ultimately make a decision on whether or not I feel it is a valid point, based on a variety of factors.

But I find, more often than not, people don't critique me here anymore.

I could take that as a sign that I've arrived and that I'm as fabulous as I'm ever going to be, but I don't. 

Instead I take my work outside of TPF... outside of the internet, even.

I have extremely talented friends here in Nashville that I will show my work to. I put it on the chopping block for *them*, because I look up to them, they're better than me, and they're honest, but constructive.

If I'm not nervous to show my work for critique, then it means that I'm not showing it in a place that is going to gain me much insight.

My best friend here has seen my work. He's even made a comment to me once, "You should be shooting more seniors. You're good enough to be", but that is literally the only comment he's ever made on my work. ...Because I've never asked him to critique my work yet. Because HE SCARES THE SH*T OUT OF ME. 

I am TERRIFIED about what he would say if I asked him for a full specific critique, and that's EXACTLY why I plan on doing so.  And I will take what he says heavily into account, because he's a credible source of knowledge, talent, and I look up to him.

Where Bace may disagree with me is the fact that I think TPF is a GREAT place for beginners to find their footing (and I also love the social, fun aspect of it, haha  ), but I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there will come a distinct point when you outgrow this place and need to go off and explore further into what your doing, if you really want to develop it into something.


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

Virgil said:


> Basically the OP stated what i said a few days ago. Some of u guys know what you're talking about and some dont.. My biggest problem is seeing someone tell someone else that their photo is crap and then i go look at THEIR flickr site and realize that person has no business critiquing anyones photos. I looked at a couple of flickr sites a few days ago and really could not believe how some of these people had the nerve to c&c anybody's photos. Photography is a form of art, and as long as it is "technically" correct everything else is just preference.. If everbody likeed the same framing and contrast it would sure be a boring world..



I see what you see sometimes also. However, to allow it to become my biggest problem means I have big problems.


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Aye one has to learn who to and who not to listen to. That's the same with a forum as it is in real life. Also I think its important to realise that within any subject there is theory and craft. I know good few people who are great at the craft, but can't critique nor teach; similarly I know people who are not really amazing, but they know the theory and how to teach what they are doing to others. 

So its not all about looking at a portfolio. In fact I'd say that's a missleading element and best ignored. What's important is listening to multiple viewpoints - doing some learning of your own (books - articles!) and starting to come to a position where you can better understand what is being said and why. From there you can far more easily start to see who is and isn't worth listening to; as well as who is worth listening to, but only on certain subjects or up to a certain point in understanding. 

Personal development is very important, you will never get all the learning from one person nor one site and indeed to do so is often to stifle yourself; variety and broadness of understanding and research is very healthy and helps give a much more well rounded and developed insight into any subject. 





And yeah TPF is great for beginners, intermediate though is a more tricky field. Things start to get more nit-picky and style starts to become more important. It's also a phase where the learning jumps get wider apart and can often be much smaller. It's more about refinement and exploration of different situations and methods rather than establishment of the building blocks that contribute to them.


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

I vote erose for member of the month.


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

e.rose said:


> bace said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so you take great pictures.
> ...



I'm your best friend.  You really should not be scared of me


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> And yeah TPF is great for beginners, intermediate though is a more tricky field. Things start to get more nit-picky and style starts to become more important. It's also a phase where the learning jumps get wider apart and can often be much smaller. It's more about refinement and exploration of different situations and methods rather than establishment of the building blocks that contribute to them.



Someone mentioned it a while that TPF is a terrible place to grow one's own personal style as most folks are more concerned about technical prowess rather than style. I agree as I see some of our more stylish members get 3 comments over other with no style getting dozens. Binga comes to mind and so does Dan as they both have a style where you can point their photos from a lineup. Yet for some reason they hardly get any conversation.


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## e.rose (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> I vote erose for member of the month.



Are we doing that now? 



JacaRanda said:


> I'm your best friend.  You really should not be scared of me



I said my best friend, here in *NASHVILLE* :greenpbl:  :hug::


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

e.rose said:


> Are we doing that now?




Yes, but only I vote.


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > And yeah TPF is great for beginners, intermediate though is a more tricky field. Things start to get more nit-picky and style starts to become more important. It's also a phase where the learning jumps get wider apart and can often be much smaller. It's more about refinement and exploration of different situations and methods rather than establishment of the building blocks that contribute to them.
> ...



I think part of that is a false impression. It's my observation that someone who can put out constant high quality photos can end up with fewer comments than those with lower grade photos. That's because many are in critique mindset, so the poorer quality ones are easier to comment upon; the higher ones are harder in fact its nit picking at best to even try. So they get less attention. It's more an element of the sites focus than anything else. 

Technical sides also I think its important to realise that most know rule of thirds - beyond that its a mystery to them. Again its learning who do and who not to listen to - some apply the rules too strictly without realising that they are only using one or two of a vast number and thats without combining and mixing them. 

Comments are also based on ones community connections; someone who is very active and socialble can often get way more comments than those who might be very accomplished but who are less popular. Subject can also affect it - some are "popular" and some less so.


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

e.rose said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > I vote erose for member of the month.
> ...



But but I thought I was your BFF (Best Forum Friend)


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



While that may be true I've seen people criticize people for trying stylistic things. Dan for example has a color grading style that he likes to use and people have expressed their desire to have it look more "real".


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Virgil said:


> Basically the OP stated what i said a few days ago. Some of u guys know what you're talking about and some dont.. My biggest problem is seeing someone tell someone else that their photo is crap and then i go look at THEIR flickr site and realize that person has no business critiquing anyones photos. I looked at a couple of flickr sites a few days ago and really could not believe how some of these people had the nerve to c&c anybody's photos. Photography is a form of art, and as long as it is "technically" correct everything else is just preference.. If everbody likeed the same framing and contrast it would sure be a boring world..



lol ... right on ;-)


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



Oh very true - that is part of learning ones style. 

Learning that not everyone will like it. 

It's a complicated area since generally you can find someone who likes anything if you look enough which is often used by beginners to defend very poor quality results. My view is that you can be more firm with your style when you're in a position to choose it rather than be limited by it. Ergo whilst it might be how you shoot naturally, you are capable of shooting in multiple other styles and with different techniques. That you choose to shoot how you do does not, necessarily, make your style "right" but it does at least mean that one can be more certain that that is how one wishes to shoot - because you've a variety of other options

That's why many experienced photographers often deliberately force a change in their style every so often. It forces them to learn new things; to try out different options - to broaden their horizons rather than be limited by them.


----------



## runnah (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Oh very true - that is part of learning ones style.
> 
> Learning that not everyone will like it.
> 
> ...



So then you agree with the OP's message (not method of delivery).


----------



## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

mishele said:


> What is the definition of "Professional"?



Someone who makes a living with a camera. Not necessarily someone who produces stunning photos with a camera


----------



## mishele (May 14, 2014)

When it comes to learning one's style, this place can become a bit stifling. Many of the people here are giving C&C on a set of rules. Which I do believe everyone should know. =) BUT, they still try to veiw everything in that mindset. That limits what they are actually seeing. It's still confusing to some people that the "Rules" are a good learning tool but they aren't the say all of art.


----------



## e.rose (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



There's enough of me to go around. Do not worry.


----------



## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

mishele said:


> When it comes to learning one's style, this place can become a bit stifling. Many of the people here are giving C&C on a set of rules. Which I do believe everyone should know. =) BUT, they still try to veiw everything in that mindset. That limits what they are actually seeing. It's still confusing to some people that the "Rules" are a good learning tool but they aren't the say all of art.



Technical foundations are necessary. 

Visual rules are grounded based on fine art rudiments. 

Personal style comes after time, countless shots and artistic maturity.


----------



## lambertpix (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> I think part of that is a false impression. It's my observation that someone who can put out constant high quality photos can end up with fewer comments than those with lower grade photos. That's because many are in critique mindset, so the poorer quality ones are easier to comment upon; the higher ones are harder in fact its nit picking at best to even try. So they get less attention. It's more an element of the sites focus than anything else.



Is that what it is?  ;-)


----------



## Derrel (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:
			
		

> It's my observation that someone who can put out constant high quality photos can end up with fewer comments than those with lower grade photos. That's because many are in critique mindset, so the poorer quality ones are easier to comment upon; the higher ones are harder in fact its nit picking at best to even try. So they get less attention. It's more an element of the sites focus than anything else.
> >SNIP>>
> 
> Comments are also based on ones community connections; someone who is very active and socialble can often get way more comments than those who might be very accomplished but who are less popular. Subject can also affect it - some are "popular" and some less so.



BOTH those points ring very true in my experience. The really *in-need-of-remedial-help* photos (and their creators!) often draw multiple posters, all offering advice, hints, and encouragement. The technically solid shots usually get the "Way to go!" and "Nice shot!" and "Awesome shot!" kind of comments and reactions. I think a lot of people here are very willing to help beginners who are seeking help or advice or direction. And of course, some people have an on-line persona that just draws others into interacting with them on-line.


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> I'm your best friend. You really should not be scared of me



I said my best friend, here in *NASHVILLE* :greenpbl:  :hug::[/QUOTE]

I watch the show 'Nashville' and I like pre Michael Jackson Kenny Rogers.  Does that count bff? :mrgreen:


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

lambertpix said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > I think part of that is a false impression. It's my observation that someone who can put out constant high quality photos can end up with fewer comments than those with lower grade photos. That's because many are in critique mindset, so the poorer quality ones are easier to comment upon; the higher ones are harder in fact its nit picking at best to even try. So they get less attention. It's more an element of the sites focus than anything else.
> ...




Kinda yes 
Because when you get to a high level of quality and stabilize there you can oft find that comments dwindle - you're still producing some great photography, but your regulars on the forum are used to seeing it. You've got to really up your game to get the comments back to show them something they are not used to seeing; similarly a change of subject focus can also restore this (because you're potentially tapping into a new subset of the community).


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## photoguy99 (May 14, 2014)

What some see as simply getting good enough to produce consistently great work I see as getting good at complying with the taste of the venue, often at the expense of ones own vision.


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## e.rose (May 14, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > I'm your best friend. You really should not be scared of me
> ...



I watch the show 'Nashville' and I like pre Michael Jackson Kenny Rogers.  Does that count bff? :mrgreen:[/QUOTE]

The TV show _Nashville _is a joke. ...And I'm not sure what Michael Jackson and Kenny Rogers have to do with each other... so no.


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Kinda yes  Because when you get to a high level of quality and stabilize there you can oft find that comments dwindle - you're still producing some great photography, but your regulars on the forum are used to seeing it. You've got to really up your game to get the comments back to show them something they are not used to seeing; similarly a change of subject focus can also restore this (because you're potentially tapping into a new subset of the community).



Better to spend time joining some real local or international competitions to find out where you really stand then getting endorsements here...


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Kinda yes  Because when you get to a high level of quality and stabilize there you can oft find that comments dwindle - you're still producing some great photography, but your regulars on the forum are used to seeing it. You've got to really up your game to get the comments back to show them something they are not used to seeing; similarly a change of subject focus can also restore this (because you're potentially tapping into a new subset of the community).
> ...



Competitions are no better and no worse. 
Those done by a panel of judges will conform to the qualities those judges desire to see. Similarly if voted for by a group you'll see the groups concept - however the group itself is important to consider.
For example there are many online competitions where voting is done by the public; as such if you can "advertise" yourself well you can get more "friends" to vote for you.

There is no perfect approach to this - its a smattering of different things with a core element being that you've got to build some self confidence as well.


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Competitions are no better and no worse. Those done by a panel of judges will conform to the qualities those judges desire to see. Similarly if voted for by a group you'll see the groups concept - however the group itself is important to consider. For example there are many online competitions where voting is done by the public; as such if you can "advertise" yourself well you can get more "friends" to vote for you.  There is no perfect approach to this - its a smattering of different things with a core element being that you've got to build some self confidence as well.



Those judges in competitions are not appointed as judges for nothing. Most come with credentials and know what they are doing. Unless you have taken part in any competitions, judged by a few judges or judged by the public, it's hard to understand how you arrived at your opinion. Js


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## photoguy99 (May 14, 2014)

All venues, including camera clubs, competitions, and so on, tend to push photographers in specific directions.

TPF will nudge you firmly into producing mid-level commercial work. Senior portraits, weddings, fashion, whatever. If you want to get professional results, and you stick with the TPF program, you've got a good chance at becoming a competent worker in a highly competitive field.

500px will push you towards richly colored landscapes in the style of.. uh.. those guys. I forget who they are.

flickr groups will do various things.

None of them will leave you a lot of room for your personal vision. All will, in fact, work pretty hard to suppress any crazy personal ideas you have, and push you toward a pretty specific thing.

If making that thing is what you want to do, great. Lots of people have stuck with the TPF program and have nice little businesses shooting whatever it is, and that's wonderful. Lots of people on 500px are selling giant canvas wraps and making some money. Great! Our own Dan O is shooting solid fashion work of the sort I can find in any of a dozen magazines on any day of the week, and he seems ecstatic.

If it happens that your vision does not actually fit with any specific venue, on the other hand, it's pretty much just an ugly mess until you either comply or leave, though. 

It's not TPF, it's any venue where you have a bunch of photographers, especially half-formed ones, with ideas of their own. Some of them will have loud, persuasive, voices.


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Vince what I'm saying is that a group of judges is no different to normal people. They are going to have tastes that they like and dislike (which is oft why you have groups not individuals because that helps reduce personal taste a little) which is not based upon the purity of art itself. Indeed there is no such thing a singular scale of good to bad upon which to pin artwork. The selection of "the best" and the highest scoring is most certainly party based upon the quality of the work itself; but its also based upon who is defining the scale at the time. 

Two different judges might come to very different conclusions even when presented with the same works. 

Thus I retain my stance, yes competitions are good; scoring well does generally mean you've done really well but they are not the be all and the end all.


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## sm4him (May 14, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > bace said:
> ...



I was just sitting here, trying to figure out WHY she thinks I'm a DUDE. :lmao:


----------



## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Vince what I'm saying is that a group of judges is no different to normal people. They are going to have tastes that they like and dislike (which is oft why you have groups not individuals because that helps reduce personal taste a little) which is not based upon the purity of art itself. Indeed there is no such thing a singular scale of good to bad upon which to pin artwork. The selection of "the best" and the highest scoring is most certainly party based upon the quality of the work itself; but its also based upon who is defining the scale at the time.  Two different judges might come to very different conclusions even when presented with the same works.  Thus I retain my stance, yes competitions are good; scoring well does generally mean you've done really well but they are not the be all and the end all.



Be careful not to thread on the risky road of "my work is art..." There are reasons why there are only 1 Picasso, 1 Rembrandt and so on


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## tirediron (May 14, 2014)

sm4him said:


> I was just sitting here, trying to figure out WHY she thinks I'm a DUDE. :lmao:


Maybe it's the masculine tilt of your beak?


----------



## Designer (May 14, 2014)

sm4him said:


> I was just sitting here, trying to figure out WHY she thinks I'm a DUDE. :lmao:



Well, I'm a dude, but I'm pretty sure it isn't me.  

But I HAVE BEEN to Nashville!  Once.


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Deleted a repeated post


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## The_Traveler (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> Get away from listening to people unless you truly admire their work.



I just stopped listening.


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> All venues, including camera clubs, competitions, and so on, tend to push photographers in specific directions.  TPF will nudge you firmly into producing mid-level commercial work. Senior portraits, weddings, fashion, whatever. If you want to get professional results, and you stick with the TPF program, you've got a good chance at becoming a competent worker in a highly competitive field.  500px will push you towards richly colored landscapes in the style of.. uh.. those guys. I forget who they are.  flickr groups will do various things.  None of them will leave you a lot of room for your personal vision. All will, in fact, work pretty hard to suppress any crazy personal ideas you have, and push you toward a pretty specific thing.  If making that thing is what you want to do, great. Lots of people have stuck with the TPF program and have nice little businesses shooting whatever it is, and that's wonderful. Lots of people on 500px are selling giant canvas wraps and making some money. Great! Our own Dan O is shooting solid fashion work of the sort I can find in any of a dozen magazines on any day of the week, and he seems ecstatic.  If it happens that your vision does not actually fit with any specific venue, on the other hand, it's pretty much just an ugly mess until you either comply or leave, though.  It's not TPF, it's any venue where you have a bunch of photographers, especially half-formed ones, with ideas of their own. Some of them will have loud, persuasive, voices.



I seriously don't know what kind of camera clubs you have there ...

Let me put it simply. If Ansel Adam is alive today, his work would have won competitions and distinctions purely by distinctive technique and style and not by 'wholesale' photography. Sorry if I sounded crude.


----------



## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

mishele said:


> When it comes to learning one's style, this place can become a bit stifling. Many of the people here are giving C&C on a set of rules. Which I do believe everyone should know. =) BUT, they still try to veiw everything in that mindset. That limits what they are actually seeing. It's still confusing to some people that the "Rules" are a good learning tool but they aren't the say all of art.



Do I get punished if I stop following the rules?


----------



## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

sm4him said:


> I was just sitting here, trying to figure out WHY she thinks I'm a DUDE. :lmao:



Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong but If I'm guessing if I actually do try to answer this I will be either severly injured or killed, right?  See, I did learn at least one thing after 10 years of marriage.. lol


----------



## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> TPF will nudge you firmly into producing mid-level commercial work. Senior portraits, weddings, fashion, whatever. If you want to get professional results, and you stick with the TPF program, you've got a good chance at becoming a competent worker in a highly competitive field.
> 
> /snip/
> 
> None of them will leave you a lot of room for your personal vision. All will, in fact, work pretty hard to suppress any crazy personal ideas you have, and push you toward a pretty specific thing.



Just a thought here, but it occurs to me that if your "personal vision" is so incredibly weak that you'd let a group of folks from the internet talk you out of pursuing it, well sorry but whatever results you may have produced probably wouldn't have been worth that much in the first place.


----------



## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > When it comes to learning one's style, this place can become a bit stifling. Many of the people here are giving C&C on a set of rules. Which I do believe everyone should know. =) BUT, they still try to veiw everything in that mindset. That limits what they are actually seeing. It's still confusing to some people that the "Rules" are a good learning tool but they aren't the say all of art.
> ...



Yes, but I'm pretty sure Mish charges by the hour for that sort of thing.   Lol


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## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)

People seriously get booty hurt over this photography stuff - it seems.   I hate the ways of TPF so much, that I can't....find another place to complain.

Such a shame I have no choices, my freedom is gone.  :banghead::violin:


----------



## JacaRanda (May 14, 2014)




----------



## robbins.photo (May 14, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> People seriously get booty hurt over this photography stuff - it seems. I hate the ways of TPF so much, that I can't....find another place to complain.
> 
> Such a shame I have no choices, my freedom is gone. :banghead::violin:



Yes, but think of it from the flipside.  If your life is so incredibly uneventful and worry free that such imagined slights are worth such outrage just imagine how sweet that must be.


----------



## mishele (May 14, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> All venues, including camera clubs, competitions, and so on, tend to push photographers in specific directions.  TPF will nudge you firmly into producing mid-level commercial work. Senior portraits, weddings, fashion, whatever. If you want to get professional results, and you stick with the TPF program, you've got a good chance at becoming a competent worker in a highly competitive field.  500px will push you towards richly colored landscapes in the style of.. uh.. those guys. I forget who they are.  flickr groups will do various things.  None of them will leave you a lot of room for your personal vision. All will, in fact, work pretty hard to suppress any crazy personal ideas you have, and push you toward a pretty specific thing.  If making that thing is what you want to do, great. Lots of people have stuck with the TPF program and have nice little businesses shooting whatever it is, and that's wonderful. Lots of people on 500px are selling giant canvas wraps and making some money. Great! Our own Dan O is shooting solid fashion work of the sort I can find in any of a dozen magazines on any day of the week, and he seems ecstatic.  If it happens that your vision does not actually fit with any specific venue, on the other hand, it's pretty much just an ugly mess until you either comply or leave, though.  It's not TPF, it's any venue where you have a bunch of photographers, especially half-formed ones, with ideas of their own. Some of them will have loud, persuasive, voices.



The idea should be to take in as many of these places as possible. If you're struggling to find yourself, the best thing you can do is look at as much work as you possibly can! Each one of those places isn't the say all of photography. They have their place in the big picture. You learn what you like and dislike from each group and grow.


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## photoguy99 (May 14, 2014)

I've seen plenty of people talked out of personal vision. Social pressure is strong.

I don't see what Ansel Adams has to do with camera clubs. He started one and did quite well in it, natch. Perhaps that's the point?


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## Overread (May 14, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> Let me put it simply. If Ansel Adam is alive today, his work would have won competitions and distinctions purely by distinctive technique and style and not by 'wholesale' photography. Sorry if I sounded crude.



Reminds me of a topic that came up in a book reading forum. The topic was asking if a respected Hugo winning author from several decades past were to produce and publish their book in todays market if that book would still get a Hugo. It was an interesting discussion on the changing perceptions, values, artistic direction etc.... It's not to say that the original material got any worse because of time; but more that times changed.


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## mishele (May 14, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> I've seen plenty of people talked out of personal vision. Social pressure is strong.


Look, no matter where you decide to play/learn, you will have to figure out how to believe in yourself. If you can't do that, then maybe the art world isn't for you. I was lucky enough to have someone from this forum take me under their wing and give me the confidence I needed. Hopefully, somewhere along the line other people get as lucky.


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## photoguy99 (May 14, 2014)

You are absolutely spot on, mishele.


----------



## rexbobcat (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Someone mentioned it a while that TPF is a terrible place to grow one's own personal style as most folks are more concerned about technical prowess rather than style. I agree as I see some of our more stylish members get 3 comments over other with no style getting dozens. Binga comes to mind and so does Dan as they both have a style where you can point their photos from a lineup. Yet for some reason they hardly get any conversation.



Style is boring much of the time.

 I sometimes fall into the mindset that once I've seen one photo from X photographer then I've seen all photos from X photographer, so I don't feel the need to comment.  

It usually depends on how pronounced the style is, though.


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Just a thought here, but it occurs to me that if your "personal vision" is so incredibly weak that you'd let a group of folks from the internet talk you out of pursuing it, well sorry but whatever results you may have produced probably wouldn't have been worth that much in the first place.



Good point there


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> I've seen plenty of people talked out of personal vision. Social pressure is strong.  I don't see what Ansel Adams has to do with camera clubs. He started one and did quite well in it, natch. Perhaps that's the point?



Standard camera clubs don't push you in one direction of style. They should help you develop your skill-set and personal style like the one Ansel started ...


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

Overread said:


> Reminds me of a topic that came up in a book reading forum. The topic was asking if a respected Hugo winning author from several decades past were to produce and publish their book in todays market if that book would still get a Hugo. It was an interesting discussion on the changing perceptions, values, artistic direction etc.... It's not to say that the original material got any worse because of time; but more that times changed.



I agree with your point about changes in the art scene. However some art remained timeless.


----------



## kundalini (May 14, 2014)

bace said:


> ...
> I had some great times on forums being a troll years ago. A soon as I stopped posting on forums my life got better. Forums are a hole for trolling and bull****. And the anger it builds inside from ****ty comments from people is just not worth it. Who needs that kind of negativity on their shoulders....


Yet, now that you're back, you are trolling and causing havoc.  Why?  Were you bored?  It seems you are a recent canker which builds upon all that you disdain.

Stay if you can play nice.  Otherwise....... phuque off!


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## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> Style is boring much of the time.  I sometimes fall into the mindset that once I've seen one photo from X photographer then I've seen all photos from X photographer, so I don't feel the need to comment.  It usually depends on how pronounced the style is, though.



Imo

Excellent style = sensitizes emotions and/or create dimensions of time and space 

Good style = strong personal statement (gotta include the ability to present a good grip on basic technicalities of shooting a good photo)

Average style = like most of us who are trying to make a statement. Some notes of style is noted but not well-formed as yet. 

Bad style = boring or "my work is art. Those who don't see my work as art are not qualified to comment on my work"


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## bribrius (May 14, 2014)

hmm. I don't know if I want to get involved in this one or not...


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> hmm. I don't know if I want to get involved in this one or not...



Truth hurts ... but sometimes we have to be realistic with ourselves in order to improve. 

Then again, it's important to note who are the ones who are critiquing our work. Do they even have anything to show themselves? 

1. Credible photographers, with strong credentials - their comments probably should be given deeper considerations 

2. Peers, who are active or serious amateurs or pros in a specific area with years of experience, who actually does some serious shooting and thinking then reading from the internet and regurgitating other people's experience - their comments are probably constructive and should be considered 

3. Others, comments made without actual experience. Mostly based on what they think or read then what have been experienced - it's fine if a note is made before the comment like "I think ...". If not, just trash it.

Sorry for being crude but these are just my opinions.


----------



## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > hmm. I don't know if I want to get involved in this one or not...
> ...


i really just stopped listening to most in general. when i realized some were shooting a thousand photos for every one good enough they posted on flikr and spent a day in lightroom on it still, i really just stopped considering much of anything unless i found a specific value in it. Even saying one is a photographer doesn't mean much to me. i know one that sucks in real life and they aren't a newbie.

one of the reasons when mentoring came up i wanted a in person real mentor or none at all.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> i really just stopped listening to most in general. when i realized some were shooting a thousand photos for every one good enough they posted on flikr and spent a day in lightroom on it still, i really just stopped considering much of anything unless i found a specific value in it. Even saying one is a photographer doesn't mean much to me. i know one that sucks in real life and they aren't a newbie.  one of the reasons when mentoring came up i wanted a in person real mentor or none at all.



Hey Bri

If you are in US try joining the Photographic Society of America. I'm quite sure you can find a credible mentor there or near your place.

If in UK, Royal Photographic Society is a good source.


----------



## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > i really just stopped listening to most in general. when i realized some were shooting a thousand photos for every one good enough they posted on flikr and spent a day in lightroom on it still, i really just stopped considering much of anything unless i found a specific value in it. Even saying one is a photographer doesn't mean much to me. i know one that sucks in real life and they aren't a newbie. one of the reasons when mentoring came up i wanted a in person real mentor or none at all.
> ...


Thanks. Problem solved im just not having one and going solo for now. And im doing pretty good things are moving along. Becoming more well known locally, getting compliments, few requests for some of my work. Things are looking up.


----------



## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Thats amazing !!!


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## mmaria (May 15, 2014)

My case...

- I have no one in real life I could learn from
- everything I've learned so far was on www
- I need people on a forum to critique me because I have no one else who will tell me that my pictures suck
- in my mind there are no professionals and non-professionals. That means nothing to me. There are people who know and understand - that means to me

With that being said, at first, I took every critique pretty seriously, no matter who said it. I just assumed they know more then me.
Now I'm being selective. I appreciate very much every comment I get because someone actually took their time to write something to me. However I do look up from whom I get the comment and take them accordingly.


----------



## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

Vince it's not at all obvious that you have any idea about the f64 group. Anyways Ansel Adams would be universally panned today as a weak imitation of himself.

bace is an admitted troll, everyone. Literally every word he writes should be taken as an effort to make trouble. Treat it as such.

Also can we drop the idiotic idea that you need to be able to take great photographs in order to have an opinion on photos? It's absurd. Do I need to be able to paint to have an opinion on Picasso? I have written no plays. Need I be silent on theater? Photography is the only art where people can trot this dog out without being instantly derided as rightly insecure hacks.


----------



## mmaria (May 15, 2014)

I just love when two people post in the exact same time


----------



## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Vince.1551 said:
> ...


well, see what transpires. I'm not ecstatic just kind of watching the wheels turn. Really no big deal. With me i just hid what i did, and hid my work. Started letting some out and people talk and now im getting a little more known.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Vince it's not at all obvious that you have any idea about the f64 group. Anyways Ansel Adams would be universally panned today as a weak imitation of himself.



Neither am i sure you understand what the photographers in f64 endeavours to achieve. You might want to find out the works of their students. And who was it that passed that comment on Adam? Does he oer she even understands the art work of him? Artist are normally a symbolism of their time and space not just someone who picks up a brush and starts painting or someone who just shoots with a camera.



photoguy99 said:


> Also can we drop the idiotic idea that you need to be able to take great photographs in order to have an opinion on photos? It's absurd. Do I need to be able to paint to have an opinion on Picasso? I have written no plays. Need I be silent on theater? Photography is the only art where people can trot this dog out without being instantly derided as rightly insecure hacks.



You cannot put any tom, dick or harry as a court judge and expect good criticism and judgement nor can you do the same for art ... freedom of opinions are expected but please specify it clearly that it is of personal opinion less you mislead an aspiring artist.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



thats still great. from my observation, many but not all, 'successful' pros built their career on effective marketing of themselves. and many generate business from referrals.


----------



## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Vince.1551 said:
> ...



well. its a little different than that. im not really looking for a career. i've had a phone number to call to discuss having my work shown locally for a week. i haven't called it. im still hesitant on the entire idea of the public thing truth be known as much as my online personality is vibrant, my real life one i'm a recluse. i have gotten refferals. A phone number to call to discuss having some work shown. Been hanging onto it thinking about it haven't called it yet. still have a photo(s) being used by a couple towns at some point, no idea when they said they will notify me. About the only thing I've actually agreed to do is go shoot a kids summer camp, which i really should figure out when im going to do that maybe next week. i agreed to do that just because it seemed like a good thing to do and fun.
Mostly, it really just seems like my name is becoming known.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



I say go for the solo exhibition. It will be good on your resume. 

Also please try to do a photo story when you shoot the kids and see if the whole series of photos tell a story behind that camp


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## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Vince.1551 said:
> ...


the kids wont even be in the photos. The camp is still closed.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Oic


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## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Vince.1551 said:
> ...


lol. 
yeah. The request is for grounds photos of things on the campground. Not the children. Doesn't mean i wont be asked back for the summer...


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



ohhhh still can make a photo story out of it


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## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

You stick to the idea that, somehow, it is taking photos that qualifies one to comment on them, except, you seem to permit, superficially. This is wrong, but I see that you are unshakeable on the point.


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## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> You stick to the idea that, somehow, it is taking photos that qualifies one to comment on them, except, you seem to permit, superficially. This is wrong, but I see that you are unshakeable on the point.


two cents. i would guess anyone could comment but being able to do the art to some extent might give you more of a knowledge base to comment from. For example.

i show people a slow shutter water shot. They think it is a wonderful amazing photo. i myself know how little brains it takes to drop shutter speed so i don't normally get into long shutters on water. They of course think it is a much better photo than i do because i understand how easy it is to attain that effect. Throw in some color saturation and hdr they might think this is the most amazing shot ever. Me, not so much. i also might be in a better position to comment on it as i know how it was done and can look for errors. They wont see the photo the same as me, and i wont see the photo the same as those much better at photography than myself. it all makes a difference. There are people that still get amazed over any frozen motion shot out there. These normally have nothing to do with the quality of the photo but rather how "neat" it looks.

They can comment, its just different. i have list of facebook likes, all appreciated. But most of these likes are on photos that were not the best photos. In the persons eyes liking it they might be, but they don't realize a lot about the photo.


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> photoguy99 said:
> 
> 
> > You stick to the idea that, somehow, it is taking photos that qualifies one to comment on them, except, you seem to permit, superficially. This is wrong, but I see that you are unshakeable on the point.
> ...



i couldn't have explained it better Bri. Thanks for the elaboration...


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## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

bribrius, like most photographers you tend to over-emphasize technical details. As a second and lesser issue, you confuse the ability to execute technical details with understanding of them.

I can understand brushwork without being much of a painter, and I can offer excellent critique of paintings without knowing which end of the brush goes in the paint. Indeed, a painter who responded to critique with "let's see YOUR paintings!!11!!" would be rightly dismissed as a crybaby. Critique either makes sense and is valuable or it does not and is not. Who offers it is irrelevant.

Of course understanding technical detail will add depth and some new dimensions to critique. It is not, however, what distinguishes good criticism from bad. Photographers, alone among artists, are dismissive of criticism from non-photographers. This is, if anything, backwards. Most photographers are relatively new to the field, and many of the more enthusiastic ones tend to be gearheads. If you want technical critique, they're great. If you want actual feedback about whether a photo works they tend, more then the average person on the street, to offer a mixture of dogma and ridiculous rules.

The point is not that any fool can offer useful non-technical critique. The point is that being a competent photographer is uncorrelated with offering useful non-technical critique. Being dismissive "until you show me YOUR pictures" is the behavior of a crybaby who is looking for a reason to be dismissive.


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## mishele (May 15, 2014)

I'm a firm believer that you can learn something valuable from anyone. I love hearing from EVERYONE that comments on my work. You need to step back and listen. You tend to lose yourself in your own work and a fresh set of eyes can never hurt. Who knows maybe that noob that comes a long points something out that I've never though of!! That would be awesome!! Inspiration is so hard to come by, I'm searching for it all the time. I'm never going to limit myself. If you do, you're doing yourself a disservice and holding yourself back. IMO! =)


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site.


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## Designer (May 15, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ..im still hesitant on the entire idea of the public thing truth be known..



I understand perfectly, as I am agoraphobic.  However; sometimes a person's talent, while not being admitted to by one's self, is demanded by others.  Such a fate often falls upon the talented in spite of their own best efforts to ignore it, bury it, deny it, or kill it.  

You posted a photograph that although seemingly very simple and not planned, I saw as bordering on genius.  Such photographs are extremely rare, being as they probably cannot be planned, but rather are snagged out of the air in a moment of careless abandon, yet timeless in their completeness.  I wish you would allow that photograph to be seen and enjoyed by others.  True, others may not see what I see in it, but that is to their own disadvantage.  

You may wish to cling to the security of anonymity, but it may be time to acknowledge a good result among the also-rans.


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

"I don't intend to build in order to have clients; I intend to have clients in order to build."


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## robbins.photo (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site.



Your cat reads the forum? Lol

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site.



correlation does not assume causation


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site.
> ...




whoa whoa whoa, learn to grammar.

had I said said:

My cat's pictures...

then I could undestand your reply, but I was clearly the subject in that sentence.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

Designer said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > ..im still hesitant on the entire idea of the public thing truth be known..
> ...



I have to say that this statement made my eyebrows go up so far they nearly flew off my head.


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site.
> ...




okay, revised:

My cat pictures have improved substantially since joining this site, and taking and applying advice/critique/hate from users such as The_Traveler.


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## robbins.photo (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



Well I just naturally assumed he was looking for posing tips.  And maybe hoping someone would start a dead bird donation thread.

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Well I just naturally assumed he was looking for posing tips.  And maybe hoping someone would start a dead bird donation thread.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk



he browses the pet portraits thread.  He wants to subscribe to get into the NSFW section but I wont let him.


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## robbins.photo (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Well I just naturally assumed he was looking for posing tips.  And maybe hoping someone would start a dead bird donation thread.
> ...



Ok well I'll keep it family friendly and not post the obvious reference.  Rotfl

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



I was trying to make the point that it was you who progressed because of the circumstance, that because people were looking, you looked at your own work more critically and probably adjusted much of what you did because you were under scrutiny.
I would bet that, as you progressed, the comments were sort of self-cancelling based on the likes/dislikes of the viewer and not 'corrections' to your technical mistakes.
That's why, after a time, critique means less and less as you, or any artist, has the tools to implement the style the artist wants.


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## pgriz (May 15, 2014)

We all know about "mommy goggles", and their effect on perception.  The same applies to any creator, who having been part of the creative process, has some difficulty detaching themselves from the work being created.  At best, a good critique can open up ones eyes and allow us to use another set of viewpoints with which to examine our creation.  This does not mean that the other viewpoints are better or worse than our own - but the difference in itself is valuable.  As we get more experienced, we may be more able to see our work "from the outside" as it were, but it really takes a supreme level of effort to push aside our familiarity with the created object and to see it with fresh eyes.  Ultimately, each person has to decide whether to act upon the feedback received, if they feel that this feedback either exposed weaknesses that were otherwise not visible, or if they suggested a better path to reach the creator's goal(s).


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## Designer (May 15, 2014)

Speaking as a non-cat photographer, I have learned a lot from this-here forum.  While my photography has not necessarily improved, my wish-list of additional purchases has grown considerably.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

pgriz said:


> We all know about "mommy goggles", and their effect on perception.  The same applies to any creator, who having been part of the creative process, has some difficulty detaching themselves from the work being created.  At best, a good critique can open up ones eyes and allow us to use another set of viewpoints with which to examine our creation.  This does not mean that the other viewpoints are better or worse than our own - but the difference in itself is valuable.  As we get more experienced, we may be more able to see our work "from the outside" as it were, but it really takes a supreme level of effort to push aside our familiarity with the created object and to see it with fresh eyes.  Ultimately, each person has to decide whether to act upon the feedback received, if they feel that this feedback either exposed weaknesses that were otherwise not visible, or if they suggested a better path to reach the creator's goal(s).



^So totally right.

From my own experience, once I had an idea of what I wanted to say, I became so pretty sure that my own judgement was right - to the point that I will happily ignore others' comments unless the comments point out a technical shortcoming I had been blind to before.


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## sm4him (May 15, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > We all know about "mommy goggles", and their effect on perception.  The same applies to any creator, who having been part of the creative process, has some difficulty detaching themselves from the work being created.  At best, a good critique can open up ones eyes and allow us to use another set of viewpoints with which to examine our creation.  This does not mean that the other viewpoints are better or worse than our own - but the difference in itself is valuable.  As we get more experienced, we may be more able to see our work "from the outside" as it were, but it really takes a supreme level of effort to push aside our familiarity with the created object and to see it with fresh eyes.  Ultimately, each person has to decide whether to act upon the feedback received, if they feel that this feedback either exposed weaknesses that were otherwise not visible, or if they suggested a better path to reach the creator's goal(s).
> ...



Even just a year ago, I was so far from this statement I would have disagreed with it vehemently. I would let just about ANYone whose opinion I valued even a little bit sway me as to whether what I'd produced was worthwhile.  I think this was because of a combination of things, but mostly, my OWN vision of what I was trying to do was not strong enough and so if someone didn't like it, it caused me to question my own vision. (Also, I have rejection issues, so there's that.  )
I'm still nowhere NEAR Lew's statement personally, but I *am* more confident in whether I have achieved what *I* set out to achieve, and I think it is that stronger vision that is allowing me to get better at looking at any critique or comment on my work, processing it and deciding whether or not it improves the work *I* set out to achieve. Sometimes, a suggestion to change a piece (crop this out, brighten this, clone that out&#8230 is a fine suggestion, but it would make a DIFFERENT photo than what I set out to accomplish.  As my vision grows stronger, I get more confident about rejecting those ideas that don't fit with it.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

Of all the people that come to mind, I think that sm4him has shown the most amazing change of level of his/her work over the last year or so. 
I just looked at pictures she did earlier and they looked like basic snaps of birds by someone relying on the camera and chance; the work she posts now is many magnitudes better and, more than skill, shows talent and artistry.


*AND*


For those people who are interested in group process/behavior, this thread is an interesting model.

Benne and Sheats' Group Roles - Team Management Training from MindTools.com

It was started by someone with a clear interest in disrupting how the process on this forum works. There were a couple of comments, one important one by tirediron, that kept the discussion from going into chaos and then it proceeded in a reasonably productive manner. People contributed what they thought and knew and, most important, the attempts to disrupt the discussion or get personal attention were minor and, for the most part, ignored.


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## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

Just to try to circle back around to the OP.

Forums and online critique and feedback is certainly _limited_. It's great for technical feedback. It tends to be driven by individual and group taste beyond that, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily a good thing either. As such, it tends to stifle vision, but sometimes that is OK. Many people aspire to simply be a photographer, to make money taking pictures. Their particular vision doesn't matter as much to them as the career does, and that is fine.

mishele has an excellent point that multiple venues is good. This will help you to understand the difference between universals and what is simply individual taste and local group dynamics. This is not to suggest that an individual's taste is worthless, sometimes it's just the thing you need. If you work in a handful of venues, and develop the abilities to make photos that each venue likes, then you're a long way toward being able to produce work for clients.

Posting in a forum like TPF tends to teach you how to make a certain kind of photo -- one that is liked by a particular audience. This is precisely the skill that is necessary to succeed in commercial photography.

If you aspire to something else, then the stifling effects on vision can become a problem.

TPF would never have "produced" Richard Avedon, or even Terry Richardson. It seems to have shaped Dan Ostergren to a degree, however. Just to pull out examples from fashion. I'm sure similar examples could be pulled from portraiture, or wedding photography. These things are neither good nor bad, they simply seem to me to be true.

I spent a fair bit of time posting things online, and now have simply stopped. It reached a point where it was no longer of use to me. I neither request nor offer critique of or to the general public. But then, I have no desire to please anyone but myself. For the work I am doing, the process _has to be_ one of pleasing oneself, and then if others are pleased, well, that's good too. But I must be first. This is, to put it mildly, not commercial work.

So bace has some points, but is either right or wrong depending on your point of view, your aspirations, and what you hope to get from a forum like TPF.

It's worth re-iterating mishele's suggestion to use multiple venues for feedback. 3 forums will offer you 10 times the value of a single one.


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> TPF would never have "produced" [a] Terry Richardson.



Good.


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## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

I think that's the wrong link, Lew, but it's still a great read!


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## Designer (May 15, 2014)

My cat would like to opine on this thread:


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## Braineack (May 15, 2014)

make sure he/she keeps it pithy.


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## lambertpix (May 15, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> ...
> For those people who are interested in group process/behavior, this thread is an interesting model.
> 
> Benne and Sheats' Group Roles - Team Management Training from MindTools.com
> ...



Interesting read.  I was hoping there would be more actual application to online groups.  As it is, the biggest innovation in online forums in the last fifteen years or so has been the "like" button, I think, and there really doesn't seem to have been a lot of innovation in the broader world of group interaction infrastructure, either.

 I don't know if anyone else here has seen any of the StackExchange sites that were spun off / inspired by StackOverflow, but that's among the most interesting new ideas I've seen in group behavior management (there's a photography site, if you're interested).  The biggest problem with that platform, of course, is that it's highly dependent on content meeting a strict Q&A pattern, but otherwise, some of the ideas are clever.

It seems like there should be a way to actually apply some of Benne & Sheats' ideas in order to manage group behavior (ex: post flagged for "Special Interest Pleading" or liked for "Energizing"), doesn't it?


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## Designer (May 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> make sure he/she keeps it pithy.



Yeth, of courth!


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (May 15, 2014)

The OP is probably fuming lol, stating how crude everyone is on here judgement wise, yet the last 3 pages have been members complimenting other members' photographic growth    We're just one big dysfunctional e-family full of 3rd cousins and 4th cousins twice removed! :hug::


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## nzmacro (May 15, 2014)

Well I'm only new here, but have also been around photography forums for years. From what I've seen here so far, threads seem to get off track more than most photography forums, derailed real quick. Other than that, no complaints. When people ask questions they seem to get darn good advice IMO on here. 

Mind you, I'm only a photographer and not an artist, so that could well be a difference (gulp). I admire those that take excellent shots consistently and also admire those that try hard to get to where they want to be. We all started somewhere and heck, I remember my first shots really well and it doesn't take people that long and that are really keen to get up to where they want to be ............ with a little help along the way. 

Its not a bad balance here to be honest. Questions get asked and answered I've noticed.

All the best and BTW, a lot here seem to like bacon !!  

Danny.


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## Derrel (May 15, 2014)

lambertpix said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Interesting read.  *I was hoping there would be more actual application to online groups*.  SNIP>>>
> It seems like there should be a way to actually apply some of Benne & Sheats' ideas in order to manage group behavior (ex: post flagged for "Special Interest Pleading" or liked for "Energizing"), doesn't it?



The classic source for understanding the various types of online personalities is the superbly illustrated Flame Warriors Guide, located here:

Flame Warriors Home


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## Vince.1551 (May 15, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Just to try to circle back around to the OP.  Forums and online critique and feedback is certainly limited. It's great for technical feedback. It tends to be driven by individual and group taste beyond that, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily a good thing either. As such, it tends to stifle vision, but sometimes that is OK. Many people aspire to simply be a photographer, to make money taking pictures. Their particular vision doesn't matter as much to them as the career does, and that is fine.  mishele has an excellent point that multiple venues is good. This will help you to understand the difference between universals and what is simply individual taste and local group dynamics. This is not to suggest that an individual's taste is worthless, sometimes it's just the thing you need. If you work in a handful of venues, and develop the abilities to make photos that each venue likes, then you're a long way toward being able to produce work for clients.  Posting in a forum like TPF tends to teach you how to make a certain kind of photo -- one that is liked by a particular audience. This is precisely the skill that is necessary to succeed in commercial photography.  If you aspire to something else, then the stifling effects on vision can become a problem.  TPF would never have "produced" Richard Avedon, or even Terry Richardson. It seems to have shaped Dan Ostergren to a degree, however. Just to pull out examples from fashion. I'm sure similar examples could be pulled from portraiture, or wedding photography. These things are neither good nor bad, they simply seem to me to be true.  I spent a fair bit of time posting things online, and now have simply stopped. It reached a point where it was no longer of use to me. I neither request nor offer critique of or to the general public. But then, I have no desire to please anyone but myself. For the work I am doing, the process has to be one of pleasing oneself, and then if others are pleased, well, that's good too. But I must be first. This is, to put it mildly, not commercial work.  So bace has some points, but is either right or wrong depending on your point of view, your aspirations, and what you hope to get from a forum like TPF.  It's worth re-iterating mishele's suggestion to use multiple venues for feedback. 3 forums will offer you 10 times the value of a single one.



And yet, "..... I neither request nor offer critique of or to the general public ... For the work I am doing, the process has to be one of pleasing oneself, and then if others are pleased, well, that's good too. But I must be first. .... .  It's worth re-iterating mishele's suggestion to use multiple venues for feedback. 3 forums will offer you 10 times the value of a single on"

You need to make up your mind seriously... or is that some kind of a new creative artistic style? 

Anyway my point has been made clearly, consistently, definitively, succinctly, somewhat crudely, and with no reservations  

I wish you success in your artistic pursuit in the manner you direct yourself. I'm sure we will be seeing something impressive from you in the near future ;-)

So I'll end here ...


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## lambertpix (May 15, 2014)

Derrel said:


> lambertpix said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I think the various forms of dysfunction are well-studied and adequately-documented.  Silly me - I was hoping those guys had a suggestion on how to make it *better*.


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## photoguy99 (May 15, 2014)

Vince, you seem to think there is some inconsistency in my remarks, but I cannot discern what you think it is. Anyways, you're wrong.

Also I can pretty well guarantee that you will never see any of my work. You are not on the rather short list.


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## robbins.photo (May 15, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Vince, you seem to think there is some inconsistency in my remarks, but I cannot discern what you think it is. Anyways, you're wrong.
> 
> Also I can pretty well guarantee that you will never see any of my work. You are not on the rather short list.



So you only show your stuff to midgets?  Ok, weird.  But whatever floats your boat I guess.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2014)

lambertpix said:


> Yeah, I think the various forms of dysfunction are well-studied and adequately-documented.  Silly me - I was hoping those guys had a suggestion on how to make it *better*.



The point is, what do the majority want this place to be?
The mods have a rather loose set of rules and try to take the easiest road within them; understandable.

There are three mechanisms that the inmates can use to 'manage' behavior.  Public disapproval (not fighting), reporting people who disrupt (the Mods can be prodded into action by enough reports) and, if you are the OP, reporting problems to the mods.

Since most disruptors and attention getters get what they want from any disruption, we should try not to feed them, just use the mechanisms that we have.


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## jenko (May 15, 2014)

I take all comments I receive into consideration. I can't say I value any one member's opinion more unless they really seem to have an insight into what I'm doing. I've never had a shot on the cover of Vogue or one hanging in the MOMA, and neither have any of you, so what's up with the snobbery?


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## bribrius (May 15, 2014)

jenko said:


> I take all comments I receive into consideration. I can't say I value any one member's opinion more unless they really seem to have an insight into what I'm doing. I've never had a shot on the cover of Vogue or one hanging in the MOMA  _*YET*_, and neither have any of you, so what's up with the snobbery?


:thumbup:


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