# Youth football



## Christie Photo (Oct 15, 2018)

Grandson no. 2 played his last game in the youth program this weekend.  I'm sure he'll play in high school, but I'm feeling a bit melancholy it all.


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## ronlane (Oct 15, 2018)

It's so nice to get daytime games and nice lighting. Nicely done. Suggestions? I'd crop #2 vertical to get the legs out of it.


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## Christie Photo (Oct 15, 2018)

ronlane said:


> Suggestions?



Absolutely.  I was hoping to hear from you.  I'm a fan.




ronlane said:


> I'd crop #2 vertical to get the legs out of it.



That was my first compulsion.  I have no real photo journalistic background and couldn't decide if removing his "wake" would  lessen the story.  Aesthetics made me want to remove all other elements, including some of the background clutter.

Thanks.  I will do it.

-Pete


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## Christie Photo (Oct 15, 2018)

Did I go too far?


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## ronlane (Oct 15, 2018)

No, not too far at all. That is what I had in mind when I suggested it.


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## ronlane (Oct 15, 2018)

You might try tightening up #1 on the right side too.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 15, 2018)

That's much better, that other player had to go! And yes, crop that tail end of a white SUV out of the picture, as well as that phantom gloved hand and leg. 

The photos of him are nice, but the rest of the composition needs to be cleaner. If he plays in high school, go early and walk around, find good vantage points. See how the background is going to look before the players are on the field. 

Usually in sports photographers are shooting at midrange to smaller apertures to get enough depth of field, but even if you're going for a close up and shooting at a larger aperture, that background is going to be there; you'll just get blobs of color instead of more defined shapes. 

I've found there are often lines and posts and poles to contend with (incl. the ever popular trash cans) and you need to figure out where to stand to avoid those, or figure out how they can work in the composition. You can't go over there and move those white vehicles, but you can move your feet and get yourself someplace where something less noticeable will be in the background. 

Practing your framing too. These are pretty good but you're shooting pretty loose. A lot of sports is the timing and anticipating what's next. I like to be set and ready and let the players come to me, into my viewfinder. Don't try to 'chase' them around; as the season goes on for home games once you've got the good vantage points figured out, anticipate the play. Usually doing hockey if I'm trying to get a certain player I notice line combinations and shift changes. If it's a right winger I get on the side of the ice where he/she will be in whatever direction the forwards will go.


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## Christie Photo (Oct 15, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> See how the background is going to look before the players are on the field.



Well...  youth sports like this are played on ALL sorts of fields.  We've seen it all.  One actually had no "uprights."  If a team wanted to try to kick for the extra point, they had to move to a sort of  mini side field were they had a goal post.  Anyway...  I won't be thinking about any backgrounds when shooting.  Thanks for the thought!  From here in, I'm sure I'll be in more of a stadium setting.

I cut my teeth on high school football at age 16, wearing a bush jacket with pockets full of flash bulbs.  I'm used to walking the sideline about 10-15 yards in front of the scrimmage line.  I keep my mouth shut ans stay out of the way.  My concern now is...  next year when he's playing high school, will I be stopped from going out to the sideline?  Typically, I just go and ACT as if I'm meant to be there.  I have told some folks in the past, "I'm authorized."  It has worked so far.  I wonder if I can still get away with this.

-Pete


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## tirediron (Oct 15, 2018)

Nice set Pete - the backgrounds for most youth sports do suck; 32" Hg worth, generally, but there's nothing you can do about it except shoot as wide as you can and hope for the best.



Christie Photo said:


> ..."I'm authorized."  It has worked so far.  I wonder if I can still get away with this.


If you don't already have one, get a high-vis safety vest and hang some sort of photo ID off of it.  You can go ANYWHERE dressed like that.


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## Jeff15 (Oct 15, 2018)

Very good action shots......


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## Christie Photo (Oct 15, 2018)

FOR INSTANCE...  from the same game, one of the more unfortunate backgrounds.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 15, 2018)

Depends. In my area for minor pro hockey I had team issued credentials. For local hockey, not so much. At our local college Division 1 hockey I used to be able to hang out at ice level. Not anymore. 

This has filtered down to high school sports in some districts in my area (and elsewhere from what I've read) where photographers need credentials to be at ice/field level. 

I'd try to be set up where there are darker cars instead of the white ones or as few visual distractions in the background as possible, and shoot/frame tighter. 

I took a sports photography workshop some years ago at the NCAA headquarters in Indy with Sports Portfolio | Dave Black , might be worth a look to see how he frames shots and uses backgrounds. I realize it's different with local sports rather than in large pro venues (at least I found it to be blindingly bright the first time at an NHL arena! where I could only take photos pregame at ice level). I find it helps to think about where to set up to minimize what could potentially wreak havoc with compositions.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 15, 2018)

I don't know, at least the kid at the door of the porta potty is interesting, compared to the boring van sitting there! lol That could be picture in and of itself!

My inclination would be to frame more to the right, to lose the van and keep the third player to the right in the scene. And what the heck, let the kid at the porta party be in on it too.


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## tirediron (Oct 15, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> FOR INSTANCE...  from the same game, one of the more unfortunate backgrounds.


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## ronlane (Oct 15, 2018)

You can get there early and scope around and look at where you like to shoot from but it's sports and you may sit in that one spot all day and not get a shot. Specially with kids football. The best thing you can to to help with the background is to get as low as possible so you are shooting up on them. There is a better chance of getting skies with no distractions. Even in HS football at the top levels you have background issues.

The other issue is if you don't have big, fast glass you have to chase the action. I was fortunate this weekend to borrow and 300mm f/2.8 and a 1.4x TC and was able to shoot a college game in the rain from the end zones primarily. But most of the time I am let with shooting a 70-200mm f/2.8L, so I have to move to stay in front or behind the action to get the shots.

But no matter any of the suggestions that I have mentioned or others, you are going to shoot a lot of images that are not good and not usable, like the port-a-potty. Pick out the 5-10 or so that are good of them and move one.


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## ac12 (Oct 16, 2018)

For high school, here are some suggestions.

Volunteer to help the yearbook staff.  

This is what I do.  I can go to most any sport and shoot on the field or gym court.  The only place that I can't shoot is on the tennis court; players and coaches only.  My goal is not so much to shoot myself, as to train the students to shoot for themselves.  But I had to shoot last year to figure out the various sports and venues, to write their photo guide.

Volunteer to shoot pix for the Athletic Department.  If the AD gives you the OK, you can shoot on the field and gym court.

Volunteer to shoot pix for the team your son is on.  The coach may get you field access.  

Today, many/most teams have their own site; Facebook, Shutterfly, etc. and they are looking for pictures of the current season.

Tip1.  For any new sport photographer, I tell them "no picture is worth getting hurt for."  Your own safety should be your primary concern.  I've seen too many people student and adults on or near the field that are just asking to get run over and hurt/injured.

Backgrounds are very hard to deal with.  If you are panning with the player, the background is whatever it is, that he is running in front of.  You can choose to not shoot, or shoot and accept the background.  A FAST f/2.8 lens, if you can afford it, will help to blur out the background, and make it less intrusive.

The background for night games is bad for a different reason.  Depending on what the background is, it can totally confuse the meter.  On the field, I am shooting flat across the field, so sometimes the background is BLACK, and the meter totally overexposes the players.  So I shoot in Manual.

Warning:  HS games can be hard to shoot.  The major issue is the low light level.  
At my HS football field, at night, I was shooting at ISO=12800, 1/500 sec, f/5.6 (lens wide open).  I am now at ISO=6400, with a f/4 lens.   A 70-200 f/2.8 lens would be nice, but too HEAVY for this old man, and $$$$ over my budget.
The gym is just as bad.  Same ISO=12800, 1/500sec, f/5.6.  I gave up the zoom and switched to a DX 35mm f/1.8 lens, so that I could shoot at ISO 3200, 1/500sec, f/2.  Like football, the f/2.8 DX 16-50 or worse the FX 24-70 zooms are $$$$ over my budget.  I did not like the Sigma 17-50/2.8; the zoom was too stiff.
So you need a camera that will work decently at HIGH ISO (12800 or 25600) and/or FAST glass.

Tip2.  If you shoot sports, you want the zoom ring on all your sport lenses to turn in the SAME DIRECTION.  Muscle memory only works when the zoom rings turn in the same direction. It is frustrating when you turn the zoom the wrong way, and miss a shot.


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## Big Mike (Oct 16, 2018)

Nice shots Pete.   Your grand kids are really growing up.   

My Son is 10 (birthday is actually today).  He plays hockey, which I shoot when I can.   I played HS football (also for a team named Tigers) and I'm uncertain if I would want my kids in football...knowing what we know now.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 16, 2018)

I like the idea of volunteering for the yearbook to get access.  I know at our local HS games there is a "guard" at the gate to the playing field and everyone has to have authorization to get by.  I was asked to get some photos of the cheerleaders by one of the cheer coaches and had to jump through some hoops to get on the field for that one game.  All adult volunteers at the school and anyone on the field has to have a CORI check every other year and they needed to make sure mine was current as well as having the request for field access come from the cheer staff.


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

Big Mike said:


> Nice shots Pete.   Your grand kids are really growing up.
> 
> My Son is 10 (birthday is actually today).  He plays hockey, which I shoot when I can.   I played HS football (also for a team named Tigers) and I'm uncertain if I would want my kids in football...knowing what we know now.



I know!  I do a bit of praying before EVERY game for ALL the players.  I know nothing really about sports, but I am a big fan of my grandsons.  Back in the film days, one job for a sod farm took me to the home of Dave Duerson.  I sat with him on his lawn and chatted.  It all makes me wonder if he would have continued his career with a greater understanding of the risks.

Hope you have a memorable celebration for your boy!

-Pete


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> I like the idea of volunteering for the yearbook to get access.



The thing is...  the competition for school contract work is pretty fierce.  And while I merely want to make photos of my grandson and his buddies, it could raise a few eyebrows (and maybe some complaints).

I'm a long-time pro and will likely be recognized as such.  So even though no image will ever be sold, I might cause a stir.  I dunno.  Maybe I flatter myself.  We'll see.

Thanks!
-Pete


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

Big Mike said:


> My Son is 10 (birthday is actually today).



Any recent shot of him here?


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## ac12 (Oct 16, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> > I like the idea of volunteering for the yearbook to get access.
> ...



The difference is, he is your grandson.   
You have a descendant blood relative reason to help the school.
That is VERY different than me, where I have no relative at the school that I am helping at.

Schools being budget constrained are always asking for parents to help.
If you are a volunteer, you are not being paid by the school.  Your only compensation is access and satisfaction from helping your grandson's school.  You are cutting out another photographer from making money off the school.   But the money that is saved, is then spent in other ways on the students.  So is that so bad?  Not for the school and not for the parents.

There will always be pictures that have to be contracted out, but my goal is to teach the student to do as much as they can themselves.  Because it is THEIR yearbook, and I want them to have ownership and pride in it.  And the more they do themselves, the more ownership they have.

There is a meeting place in the middle where you the volunteer, and the contract photographer(s) can coexist.
The stuff that I shoot, I do not/cannot charge for and access is restricted.

Pictures for the yearbook, are not available or for sale to students or parents.
Pictures for the AD and coaches, only go to them.  
The stuff that the contracted photographer shoot (team pictures, individual portraits, certain events, etc.) are for sale to the students/parents.

The only time that I shot team pictures, was when the yearbook deadline was so close that the pros turnaround time was too long.  But even then, those team pix were not made available to the team for purchase, to separate yearbook from the contracted photographers.
For last year's graduation, the student body advisor restricted access to my photos, so as to not compete with the contracted photographers.
So you can coexist with a contracted photographer.  You just have to define the borders.


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

ac12 said:


> The stuff that the contracted photographer shoot (team pictures, individual portraits, certain events, etc.) are for sale to the students/parents.



And THAT'S where it might get messy.  The contract guy/gal may not be so happy to see me around.  He or she is speculating on sales.  They may wonder why would anyone buy if there's a veteran pro doin' it for free?  I don't suspect this will happen.  BUT I sure don't want to provoke anyone.

And so ya know...  I DO support the school.

-Pete

OH...  forgot to say...  I do post game photos on FB and anyone is welcome to them.

Here's the link to my youth football group: Log into Facebook | Facebook


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## ac12 (Oct 16, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > The stuff that the contracted photographer shoot (team pictures, individual portraits, certain events, etc.) are for sale to the students/parents.
> ...



The catch would be, if you work for the school, you likely need to work out with the school, the border of what you shoot and what the contracted photog shoots.
Example1, I cannot post my pictures publicly.  Instructions directly from the principal.
Example2, conflicting events like graduation, may cause my pix to have to be restricted in access, to not take away sales from the contracted photog.

If you shoot as a grandparent, independent of the school, do as you please.  He is your grandson.  You shoot and publish like any parent would.  And unless the other photogs are people you have to work with in your business, I would not worry about them.  You would be no different than any other parent or student who had a decent camera and shoots a lot of photos, and posts it on the web, for free.  And some of the parents and students take some dang good photos.

I've seen parents with PRO level camera and lenses.
So any contract photog will have to deal with them.


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

ac12 said:


> You would be no different than any other parent or student who had a decent camera and shoots a lot of photos



Well...  I like to _THINK _that I am.  Again...  maybe I flatter myself.

-Pete


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## ac12 (Oct 16, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > You would be no different than any other parent or student who had a decent camera and shoots a lot of photos
> ...



he he
You ARE different.

But there are a lot more parents and student that will give the contracted photog competition.  And they won't thing anything of putting their pix on the web.  Some are good, some not so good, some darn right bad.  But it goes up on the web.  And parents will grab any pix of their child.

At the last volleyball game that I shot, there were at least 6 dSLRs in the crowd, including at least 2 pro level cameras/lenses (Nikon D750 with a 70-200 and a Canon with a grey L-series lens, I think 70-200/2.8).  I don't know why they would use a 70-200 in the gym, in the first row of the bleachers  

The only real difference is the access that a school sanctioned photographer would have.  "Normally" parents and students can't be on the football field or volleyball/basketball court.  However, I have had parents and students on the football field and volleyball court with me, so sometimes there is no difference in access.  Just what the officials and coaches will allow.


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## Big Mike (Oct 16, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > My Son is 10 (birthday is actually today).
> ...



Here is the photo I shot for his profile on the hockey team webpage.
Error | ThePhotoForum: Film & Digital Photography Forum

I shot one game this season so far, didn't manage to get a good face shot of him yet but here is an action shot.
Error | ThePhotoForum: Film & Digital Photography Forum


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

His mother must be REALLY good lookin'.  What a face!


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## Christie Photo (Oct 16, 2018)

ac12 said:


> At the last volleyball game that I shot, there were at least 6 dSLRs in the crowd, including at least 2 pro level cameras/lenses (Nikon D750 with a 70-200 and a Canon with a grey L-series lens, I think 70-200/2.8).



I see it all time.  LOTS of folks with MUCH nicer gear than mine.  Oh well.

They're just tools (the camera/lenses... not the users).


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## ac12 (Oct 21, 2018)

Christie Photo said:


> I know!  I do a bit of praying before EVERY game for ALL the players.  I know nothing really about sports, but I am a big fan of my grandsons.  Back in the film days, one job for a sod farm took me to the home of Dave Duerson.  I sat with him on his lawn and chatted.  It all makes me wonder if he would have continued his career with a greater understanding of the risks.
> 
> -Pete



I've seen a few of those hits, and even with protective gear on, it bothers me.

One of the hits that scares me is the low hit, where the runner or pass receiver is then flipped over the hitter.  It is how he lands, that is where the danger is.  Landing on his head can be REALLY BAD.  

The problem is that football is so engrained into the culture, that I doubt it will ever be removed from school sports.


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## stapo49 (Oct 21, 2018)

This seems to be an issue with a lot of football codes. Where I live Australian Rules Football is the most popular sport by far. In some other states it's Rugby. 

Lots of concerns in relation to brain injuries due to high impact collisions. Also there is no helmets or padding worn by the players.

One of the reasons soccer is becoming more popular I think.

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## ronlane (Oct 21, 2018)

stapo49 said:


> This seems to be an issue with a lot of football codes. Where I live Australian Rules Football is the most popular sport by far. In some other states it's Rugby.
> 
> Lots of concerns in relation to brain injuries due to high impact collisions. Also there is no helmets or padding worn by the players.
> 
> ...



The injuries and concussions are still very real in soccer as well. Maybe worse because the "header" is so practiced and that's with no helmet.


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## stapo49 (Oct 21, 2018)

Don't get me wrong I love Aussie Rules Football and played it from from the age of 12 until 27. I would still encourage boys and girls to take it up.

 I think that people just need to be aware that there is a risk. Not sure if I agree with you about the soccer header thing but would be like to see the statistics. 

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## ac12 (Oct 21, 2018)

ronlane said:


> stapo49 said:
> 
> 
> > This seems to be an issue with a lot of football codes. Where I live Australian Rules Football is the most popular sport by far. In some other states it's Rugby.
> ...



I've got a few shots of that header, where the player hits the falling ball with his head.  On a few of the shots, I can see a GRIMACE on the face, like it hurt.  So there must be a hard impact to the head.


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## stapo49 (Oct 21, 2018)

ac12 said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> > stapo49 said:
> ...


I stand corrected. Not having played soccer didn't realise the header was that hard. I was thinking more of when you get an accidental head hit when crunched in a tackle or driven into the ground head first.

Soccer heading -- not collisions -- cognitively impairs players

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## ac12 (Oct 22, 2018)

stapo49 said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > ronlane said:
> ...



I don't really know how hard the impact is, as I don't play soccer, just shoot it.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 22, 2018)

As a rec league softball coach, I had to complete a concussion protocol course online.  I was surprised to read that the sports with the highest concussion rate for girls are 1-soccer, 2-lacrosse and 3-basketball.  Boys was 1-football, 2-ice hockey and 3-soccer.  My daughter has a classmate who plays lacrosse and soccer.  She is 15 and has already had 6 concussions.


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## ac12 (Oct 22, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> As a rec league softball coach, I had to complete a concussion protocol course online.  I was surprised to read that the sports with the highest concussion rate for girls are 1-soccer, 2-lacrosse and 3-basketball.  Boys was 1-football, 2-ice hockey and 3-soccer.  My daughter has a classmate who plays lacrosse and soccer.  She is 15 and has already had 6 concussions.



Girls lacrosse and basketball ???
I've seen the boys get physical, but not the girls.
But that is just at my school, and your stats are probably nation-wide.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 22, 2018)

ac12 said:


> Girls lacrosse and basketball ???
> I've seen the boys get physical, but not the girls.
> But that is just at my school, and your stats are probably nation-wide.



I would think a lot of the concussions are unintended contact when two kids collide at high speed in soccer or lacrosse.  In basketball the elbows fly whether it's boys or girls playing.


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