# The famous poor mans leica?



## jukka (Nov 6, 2011)

Actually posted this same question on the introduction thread but maybe it would suit better here. I recently lost my epl1 and been shooting every since with FM2n and like it very much. However, I mainly do street shooting and feel that this particular Nikon is not the best tool for it. 

Instead of ep3 or nex7, which I have both considered as my new street toy, it occurred to me to buy some sort of film rangefinder with silent shutter and fast manual focus. Unfortunately I don't have the cash or even the will to invest into a leica, so could someone recommend a mid priced rangefinder replacement for street?


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2011)

Ricoh GX-R, with the A12 or M-mount module looks like one good choice. I have been toying with the idea of that camera for use with my rangefinder lenses. It is an APS-C sized sensor...I'm not willing to go down to the postage stamp sized sensors when APS-C is available in the same price range.

Ooops, I read the question wrong...you want a film camera...I dunno about the "silent shutter" requirement. I've not heard many quiet shutters. The Voigtlander rfdr bodies are not that quiet, but the focus is fast.
See CameraQuest Home Page


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## jukka (Nov 6, 2011)

Yeah, I noticed I wrote that in a bit unclear fashion. Thanks for info, am now currently looking into voigtlander rfdrs, which would seem just right for me. The nikon fm2 has a noticable click with the shutter (which can sometime annoy doing street shooting), and I've been told rfdrs would be more silent, no idea why.


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## usayit (Nov 6, 2011)

Budget?

Here are some suggestions to start out with

* Voigtlander Rangefinder w/ interchangeable lenses of choice depending on whether electronic or manual shutter and which frame lines you want.  Compatible with Leica lenses.
Voigtlander Bessa Chart

* Canonette - Most will need rear seals replaced.  Easy DIY job

* Contax G series.

* For digital, you might be able to pull off an Epson R-D1 but it is quirky with some disadv/adv.  I understand you mean film but I figure i would just throw this out there.  I have one.



"Fast focusing" is more of a function of the lens than camera body.   Short versus long focus throw and properly damped.   
Budget? niche products can be pricey.  Have you ever shot with a true rangefinder before?  What sort of user experience are you looking for?  Shooting with a rangefinder is a different user experience... some hate it.. some love it...


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2011)

Nice job on the Bessa Chart, usayit. I briefly looked at it, and noted that it says that the electronic shutter in the R2A and R3A models is "noticeably quieter than the mechanical shutter",  but "not as quiet as Leica shutters". I cannot imagine anything from Cosina being as quiet as a Leica shutter mechanism. I own a Bessa R, which has a pretty simple mechanically-timed shutter, perhaps even the same one in the Nikon FM-10 which Cosina makes for Nikon,and I think it sounds rather "clattery". The Nikon FM2 has plenty of components to its shutter release noise signature: mirror up, lens diaphragm stop-down,shutter, then mirror return sounds emanating from it; the Cosina-made Voigtlander Bessa bodies have no diaphragm action noise, no mirror slap noise,no mirror return noise....it's just "one click". Or, more like one "Clank!", at least with the mechanically-timed shutter I am familiar with from my Bessa.

I'm actually thinking that for street shooting, a digital camera would be handier than a 35mm film camera like a Bessa. I watched the DigitalRev 11 minute video of the Ricoh GX-R with M-module, but Kai is such a dipstick, and so flippant and young and inexperienced, that his "comparison" and his "comments" on the focusing of the Ricoh left me wondering who is in charge at that site WRT to video production. For street shooting, you ought to be able to focus by scale, specially with rangefinder lenses with decent distance scales, which is the majority of lenses actually.


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## jukka (Nov 6, 2011)

Yeah, think my budged would cover a used R3A with a lens. Now, I don't have much experience shooting rfdr, but enough so I can with some confidence say it would suit my purposes, namely I consider the rfdr focusing screen faster to use, although there must be different ones there too. 

I used to own an epl1 with the 20mm panny, but my brother forgot in a bar, boo, so I have moral justification to buy a new cam. In the meanwhile, like said, been shooting FM2 and totally felled into film.

Actually when the gear fever rises, its difficult to let go, and I think I want the R3A. The question is which lens. I'm used to 50mm 1.2 nikkor and just bought the nikkor 28mm 2.0, so maybe something in between. Appreciate the help (and especially the chart), could you still recommend me one.

p.s. should you be interest here are links to two of my sets. The first one shot with the FM2 and the second Oly.

fun, loathing and jet lagging - a set on Flickr

Randoms - a set on Flickr


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## fotoshooter (Nov 6, 2011)

An excellent "street" film camera is the Kodak Retina IIa. It has a 50mm f/2 lens with a quiet leaf shutter and takes photos comparable to my Leicas..


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2011)

I looked at your gallery fun,loathing and jet lagging. Some nice stuff in there. You could shoot with anything that you like.

As for lenses, Cosina/Voigtlander has many, and they are generally well-made and of good quality. Voigtlander RF Leica Mount Lens Chart

Hard to tell another person what lenses he will find useful...I would "guess" you'd enjoy a 28mm, a 35mm, and maybe a 50mm for wider views, and then a 75mm as a medium tele lens, and for ultra-wide views, the 15mm. Focal length selection depends a LOT of the user; many consider 28mm on 24x36 to be the "normal" lens; others consider 21 or 25 to be their regular lens; still others feel that 35mm represents "normal", and 50 is the "tele" due to its more-selective nature.


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## dots (Nov 6, 2011)

Hexar RF has a _silent mode_.



jukka said:


> it occurred to me to buy some sort of film rangefinder with silent shutter



However it's also AF ..2/35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konica_Hexar


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## BlairWright (Nov 6, 2011)

Rollei has some good options too, hunt around eBay a bit..


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## usayit (Nov 6, 2011)

Hexar RF is going to cost as much as an M3 or M2.  Its silent mode is for the winder if I recall correctly.   It was better than the Leica's of similar time frame in some ways.... and lacking in others.  Definitely an options (I considered one prior to an M6 classic).   Kodak Retina IIa, never had any extensive use of one.... remember at that age, you'll need someone to CLA if this is going to be a user.  Not sure if you can find someone who can CLA a Kodak Retina IIa very easily.  

As for which body and which lens... wow... that's a loaded question.  Ask a dozen street photogs that question and you'll most likely get 12 different answers and reasons to back each one.   (No matter which system they use)     They'll often fight tooth and nail to prove their reason.  hahaha

My take on lens:  On a full frame, I can shoot a 50mm all day long but generally walk around with either a kit of two (35mm and 75mm) or three (24mm, 50mm, 90mm).  24mm is lovely for someone who likes to shoot at the hip.  Its just wide enough but not so much that it distorts and you get gobs of depth of field to work.  I've met people who swear by 21mm (VC 21mm skopar f/4), I have one and haven't given it much use; perhaps I haven't given it a chance.  Someone who likes to get in close for a story will generally go for either a 28mm or 35mm.   Someone who keep their distance and likes to bring their viewer to a single subject will like longer; 50s or slightly longer.  A fast 28mm is lovely in low light... fast shutter speeds but very usable DOF unlike fast apertures with telephotos.  Its absolutely beautiful focal length for more an intimate feel.   

Here's the hard part...  you said "fast focusing" which often is a balance between damping, short focus throw, and long focus throw.   Often its a personal preference that is very very very subjective.   Some will say short focus throw lens makes it too difficult to get accuracy and long focus throw is more accurate (but too slow).   Others will say a highly damped focus ring is great for accurate focus but others again say it takes too much effort thus slowing them down.   Others like the focus tabs others hate them.   There is a good reason why many manual lens shooters will buy and sell lenses often until they find one that "connects" with them.   This is also the reason why very fast lenses (aperture) are equipped with very damped and long focus throws.... accuracy since the DOF is very shallow.  

Probably not making it easy on you... sorry...  selecting a lens is very much like a painter selecting a brush; no wrong or right its very subjective.  

Just to let you know, I have the following Voigtlander lenses:

* 12mm Heliar - fun lens. Vignettes and color casts on a digital
* 35mm f/1.2 Nokton - Fast 35mm, reasonably sharp (not tack sharp wide open).  Big heavy slow focus.  Low contrast
* 28mm f/1.9 Ultron - I like it.
* 21mm f/4 - Haven't used it much.

My fastest focusing (to me) lenses are the newer Leica Summarits.  I had all 4; 35/50/75/90.  All were short and lightly damped but not too light.   I like the feel. 

So if I were to buy a Voigtlander street shooter without an unlimited budget, what would I consider?

Body:  R3A
1) AE Lock and manual LED meter
2) 37mm base rangefinder length (Longer is more accurate)
3) (Big reason) 1:1 rangefinder.   Meaning that there is zero magnification (short or long) on the rangefinder.  You can shoot and view the world as you normally would.  You can shoot with both eyes open.  (I LOVED this on my R-D1 rangefinder which is based on a voigtlander body)
4) 50/90 frame lines with the base rangefinder length long enough for accuracy on the 90mm.   
5) You can still work wider focal lengths with viewfinders.  I personally don't mind using external viewfinders for wider focal lengths or often "estimate".  

Lens:  
The problem with recommending specifics here is that I don't know what the focus action (damping and throw) feels like on the entire line of the Voigtlander lenses.    

I'd probably start with a single lens; 40mm f/1.4 Nokton (multi-coated).   In between 50mm and 35mm for a good single lens/ single focal length to carry around.  Fast 1.4 aperture.  Judging from the photos, it looks to be 1/3 turn from near to far focus.  Not too bad.  It has a focus tab (which I like).  It looks pretty compact too.

Then it would be the 28mm f/2 Ultron.  Smaller, improved version of mine.   I like it.  Focus throw isn't too bad.  (add 28mm viewfinder).

Then it would be the new 75mm f/1.8 heliar.  Simply because I'm dying to try one out right now.


Another great option that i forgot to mention!!!   Old Canon Rangefinders which are based on the Leica screwmount rangefinder designs post WWII.  Leica II III rangefinders are much more expensive because of collectors.  Cheaper than Bessa even after a CLA.  CLA should be easy enough to find.  Leica screwmount so many lenses (including some of the screwmount Voigtlanders) are available to choose from.  The rangefinder is a bit "squinty" but still effective.  Its actually better than the Leica III because the rangefinder and viewfinder are in a single unit.  Cloth shutter is quieter than the shutters on the Voigtlanders Bessa's above.  


My choice would be

Canon IV SB2 (I have one)
CLA'd from camerarepair.com (new shutter curtain and overhaul)
50mm collapsable f/1.5 (albeit, mine has a stiff aperture ring)
28mm f/1.9 Ultron and viewfinder.
Voigtlander VCII meter.  (I like presetting exposure at the hip prior to even composing a photo)


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## jukka (Nov 7, 2011)

Thanks for this massive information, much appreciated! I think I'll try to go with R3A body and a 40 mm f1.4 nokton lens, while also looking into the canon rgfd which sounds pretty interesting too. Anyway, the focal length of 40mm should be just ok and its certainly fast enough. Actually already found an offer on ebay with that combo. Thanks again for sharing the info everyone!


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## DiskoJoe (Nov 10, 2011)

You could get a zorki.

Camera Russia ZORKI-4 Leica copy 35mm JUPITER 8.Service 50 years of Soviet power | eBay

I thought this thread was actually about zorki from your title.

You could also go sony nex. With the nex you can get adaptors where you can use leica lens on them.


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## dots (Nov 10, 2011)

A Leica is a poor man's Alpa anyway /trol


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## gsgary (Nov 10, 2011)

DiskoJoe said:


> You could get a zorki.
> 
> Camera Russia ZORKI-4 Leica copy 35mm JUPITER 8.Service 50 years of Soviet power | eBay
> 
> ...



Me got one


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## camperbc (Nov 11, 2011)

Hey gsgary, let me know if you ever want to part with that Zorki! I've been looking forever for a pristine copy of this camera... with no success to date! Or perhaps you can steer me in the right direction to one of these beauties. (Everything I see on Ebay looks quite rough indeed!) From your picture this one looks mint. Would love to hear your thoughts/experiences regarding this make and model.

  Glen
Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:


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## DiskoJoe (Nov 11, 2011)

gsgary said:


> DiskoJoe said:
> 
> 
> > You could get a zorki.
> ...



Hey, how do you like the zorki? I had considered getting one but have heard mixed reviews on them.


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## camperbc (Nov 11, 2011)

> Hey, how do you like the zorki? I had considered getting one but have heard mixed reviews on them.



Really? I have only heard good things about them. Anyone who has ever owned/used one loves it. But it's getting more and more difficult to find ones in pristine condition; I've been trying for months.

  Glen
Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:


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## compur (Nov 11, 2011)

Zorkis are getting pricey lately, I've noticed.  Nice ones anyway.  I haven't used Soviet cameras very much myself but I do have an M39 Jupiter 85/2 which is very nice and I have used other soviet lenses as well which have been good.

But, in the "poor man's Leica" category, one of my favorites is the Agfa Ambi-Silette. There's a nice description of it here. I have the 35, 50 & 90mm lenses and a couple of bodies and the close-up attachments (which I have yet to use):






I really like the viewfinder which has built-in frames for the 35, 50 and 90mm lenses.  The lenses are in the f/2.8-4 range which is not what you'd call fast but for outdoor daylight use they are fine and quite sharp.

Am Ambi-Silette body with normal lens seems to sell for about $50 or so and is not hard to find.  The other lenses take a little patience to find but they're out there.  There is also a 130mm lens which is scarce and pricey but I'm in no hurry to find one as I don't much like using lenses longer than about 90mm on a rangefinder anyway.

I also just found a pair of Braun Paxette II lenses (35 & 90) at a swap meet for 20 bucks. So now the game is to find a nice body for them.  I've never used a Paxette.


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## camperbc (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi Compur,

You captured my interest as soon as you mentioned a price of 50 bucks, so I just took a look on Ebay and the price for a working Ambi-Sillete ranges from around $170 to over $400. DARN IT!!

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:


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## JAC526 (Nov 11, 2011)

I picked up a Canonet QL-17 for 12 bucks off of Craigslist.  Replace the light seals an took the top plate off and cleaned the viewfinder.

It works great.  It has a fast F1.7 45mm lens and the shutter is just one tiny click.  Barely noticeable.


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## compur (Nov 12, 2011)

camperbc said:


> Hi Compur,
> 
> You captured my interest as soon as you mentioned a price of 50 bucks, so I just took a look on Ebay and the price for a working Ambi-Sillete ranges from around $170 to over $400. DARN IT!!
> 
> ...



I see 2 that recently sold on US eBay site for under $50.


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## camperbc (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi Compur,

I couldn't find a mint Zorki 4 or 4K after months of searching, but as of today I am the proud new owner of an absolutely pristine Fed 2(D6). What a stunningly beautiful camera this is! I never really had paid them much mind, as all the ones I have come across were quite rough; tired looking. But this one looks every bit as shiny and new as the day it was made. I ended up paying a small fortune for it, but have no regrets. It will be used regularly, rather than just sitting on display. It has just been CLA'd, and in fact even came with a three month warranty; unheard of for a camera such as this. I can hardly wait to start shooting with it! I will post pictures of it, and from it, soon!

One day I hope to own an Ambi-Sillete also; another lovely camera! I will be on the lookout for a mint one at a reasonable price.

Glen 
Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:


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## compur (Nov 13, 2011)

Congratulations!


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## Jimi3 (Nov 13, 2011)

Look up Yaschica Electro 35. I'm hooked on this camera. Great glass fast too 45mm f1.7. True 35mm with no distortion. U have to use a battery adapter to fit the current px28 battery in it but that's easy to find on eBay or the Yashcia guy. I picked up a working GSN on eBay for $50. Can get pricey when You find a guaranteed working one. I bought mine from and estate buyer. Check em out. Sweet parralex focusing. It's a tank too. Very solid. Gives the Leica a run for its money. Can't afford a D700 so am shooting with this a lot moreThese days and loving the feel of analog again.


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## gsgary (Nov 14, 2011)

camperbc said:


> Hey gsgary, let me know if you ever want to part with that Zorki! I've been looking forever for a pristine copy of this camera... with no success to date! Or perhaps you can steer me in the right direction to one of these beauties. (Everything I see on Ebay looks quite rough indeed!) From your picture this one looks mint. Would love to hear your thoughts/experiences regarding this make and model.
> 
> Glen
> Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:




No way  had is since 1975 when my dad gave it me


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## gsgary (Nov 14, 2011)

DiskoJoe said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > DiskoJoe said:
> ...



It's good, 50F2 Jupiter is pin sharp


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## camperbc (Nov 20, 2011)

Here's the little gem that I just picked up after I was unsuccessful in finding a mint Zorki 4K; the 1960 FED 2 (D6) Russian  rangefinder. This fine camera is in absolutely pristine condition, both mechanically and  cosmetically. The Industar 26M LTM 50mm f/2.8 lens is amazingly sharp  and contrasty. This is one camera that I will never part with.

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland: about my photography:


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## compur (Nov 20, 2011)

&#1089;&#1083;&#1072;&#1074;&#1085;&#1072;&#1103; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;!


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## Arpeggio9 (Nov 27, 2011)

Jimi3 said:


> Look up Yaschica Electro 35. I'm hooked on this camera. Great glass fast too 45mm f1.7. True 35mm with no distortion. U have to use a battery adapter to fit the current px28 battery in it but that's easy to find on eBay or the Yashcia guy. I picked up a working GSN on eBay for $50. Can get pricey when You find a guaranteed working one. I bought mine from and estate buyer. Check em out. Sweet parralex focusing. It's a tank too. Very solid. Gives the Leica a run for its money. Can't afford a D700 so am shooting with this a lot moreThese days and loving the feel of analog again.



I just got one of those and I absolutely love it. It's a GSN model. I got it kind of cheap but it needed the "pad of death" replacement which I did my self and I had to tinker with it for about 10 hours. Totally worth my trouble. It takes amazing pictures. The lens is excellent.


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## bleeblu (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm in love with my Finepix X10. It's got that vintage look and it takes pretty good pictures for a 2/3 sensor.


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## michaeljamesphoto (Dec 15, 2011)

I love my Rollei B35. It's a viewfinder, not a rangefinder, so you'd be using a focus scale on the lens to "guess" where your subject lies. I haven't found this to be a problem, even though I'm quite terrible at guessing distance. It's selenium light meter does not require a battery (nothing on this beauty does), however the meter does not do well with low light (anything indoors). I shoot black and white, so it's not a problem for me, using the meter when I can and estimating when I can't. 

The little Triotar 40mm f/3,5 lens is quite sharp and contrasty, and I love the "feel" of the photos that come out of this pocket-sized camera. The more I shoot with it, the more it is becoming my favorite out of my collection.

Send me a personal message if you would like any example shots; I don't have any scanned as of now, but would happily scan them for you if you wish.  Happy shooting!


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## Mot (Dec 29, 2011)

I think I'll be the third to give a recommendation to the Canonet QL17. That's what I've always known as a 'poor man's Leica'. It's my first step onto the Leica ladder, my second step should be a Canon 7 so I can get some LTM lenses. It's going to be a long ladder! I tend to put Tri-X through mine so I can have fun in the dark room, I'll be doing some enlargements next year which will be fun!





​ 
I think the QL17 is a great looking camera, I really like the slanted window detail. That's probably what sold it to me. I got it for £28 off eBay in great external condition but in need of light seal repairs, I found that bit fun so I won't complain.

I also use mine for street shooting around Blackpool so I can vouch for it's 'capableness'. This is the kind of thing I'm on about:






Is that the kind of thing you want it for?  I find the lens to be perfectly fine for what I need it for, I haven't noticed any softness and the focussing is good. The second of the two was a shot from the hip using the distance scale to focus, hoping that 1/30 at f/1.7 would get a good exposure!


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## bhop (Jan 18, 2012)

It's been awhile since this thread was started, but if you're still looking..  

I own a Leica M6, Canonet QL17 GIII, and also a Yashica Electro 35 GSN.  I think if you've never used a rangefinder camera before, you should go super cheap and try to find a Canonet QL17 just to see if you even like rangefinder photography.  Some people can't get used to it.  That was my gateway drug that led to the Yashica, which led to the Leica.  

I think I paid around $40 for my first Canonet.  I prefer it over the Yashica because you've got more control over your exposure.  You've got a shutter speed ring _AND_ an aperture ring.  The Yashica only lets you adjust aperture and handles the exposure on its own, so it's harder to compensate for lighting situations if you need to.  The meter isn't TTL in the Canonet, but it's right next to the lens, inside the filter screw, so it kinda works the same.  The Yashica in comparison has the meter (which is pretty damn accurate I must say) next to the rangefinder window, so if you're using filters, you've got to adjust the asa dial to compensate and then remember to set it back when you take the filter off.  The Canonet also has an exposure lock for when you're readjusting your composure (half press shutter button), while the Electro just changes the exposure to whatever you're pointing at at all times.  I do think the Electro has a better lens, but i'd still go for the Canonet over the two.

That said, you mentioned you could swing a Voigtlander body and lens.  M2/M3 (and sometimes M4-2) prices can be around the same as a new Voigtlander body.. so genuine Leicas aren't as out of reach as people make you think they are as long as you don't mind used.. just throwing that out there.  You don't have to use Leica lenses.. they're the most expensive part of the package.  I'm still saving for a Summilux 50    The Voigtlander, with its M-mount is going to be the closest thing to a modern Leica body with price as a consideration.


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## Hackett (May 14, 2012)

bhop, I might have to pickup a Canonet. I really enjoy my electro 35's, and use my petri 7s a lot, but I hear a lot of good about the Canonets

Also, the petri and the yashicas are all considerably more quiet than any of my SLR's


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