# Outsource my post-production?



## JacobPhoto

Well, don't ever think that I will need it but I'm stuck and went out of my deadlines..

Can anybody share experience in outsourcing their editing process? I'm interested in your own real experience and some basic rates.


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## table1349

Sorry, this probably won't help but I don't outsource my work.  When you do you loose control.  

With that said, in the old days in the business, we would out source to whom ever the customer wanted if they were wanting it outsourced.  Otherwise done in house.


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## sscarmack

Time management.


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## JacobPhoto

Half a year ago I thought the same.. but now I understand that I can't be in two places at once. If you want to grow your business you need to entrust part of your work to someone else or you'll always stay a craftsman in photography.


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## JacobPhoto

sscarmack said:


> Time management.


How many shoots per week do you have? Time management, however, is not a panacea.


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## table1349

Quality not quantity.  Are all the clients picking that many photos that you don't have time to process the ones they selected?   Working harder will only get you so far, you have to work smarter.


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## JacobPhoto

The main part is wedding packages, especially in high season. Plus some portraits and events on weekdays. I found some post production services but they offer annual contracts which are unsuitable for me.


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## table1349

JacobPhoto said:


> The main part is wedding packages, especially in high season. Plus some portraits and events on weekdays. I found some post production services but they offer annual contracts which are unsuitable for me.


Are the couples getting disks with edited photos or are they picking individual photos for print?   While everyone wants their photos before you even took them there is always going to be a reasonable amount of wait time from snap to finished product.  What is your time spread from selection to finished product?

Unless you can find someone to work in-house with you that you trust with your work you may need to look at either your structure or if you are that busy, the number of shoots you do.  Quantity lasts only so long with average quality.  Great Quality will follow you around and attract those that desire quality.   It would be nice is some of the wedding photographers would hop in.  We did very minimal wedding work and only at our choosing.  We did portrait and commercial photography mainly with more than enough business to keep us going.


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## astroNikon

on another note

If you are in such high demand with 100% utilization.
You could try raising your prices a bit.  More revenue.  maybe if you raise them enough your increased revenue will be above any lost clientele revenue, which would provide you more PP time.  Then you could hire a 2nd photog who could also edit and learn your specific nuances which are indicative of your quality output.  Rather than outsource to some place far away and cookie cutter the output.


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## Vtec44

JacobPhoto said:


> Well, don't ever think that I will need it but I'm stuck and went out of my deadlines..
> 
> Can anybody share experience in outsourcing their editing process? I'm interested in your own real experience and some basic rates.



The thing about this forum is that it's geared toward hobbyists, so it's always tough to get a helpful answer when you're asking a business question.  People have a lot to say on here, but you just have to filter out what's useful and what's not.

I'm a wedding photographer.  I limit myself shooting between 20-30 weddings a year because that is about as much as I can handle when doing my own editing.  I've been recently thinking about outsourcing part of the editing, and have friends who are outsourcing and loving it.  You can elect to have the company to go as far as you need, and most can closely match your style (ie exposure, straightening, WB, etc).   You still have to go through the final quality check but it saves you a lot of time by not doing some of the repetitive things.  Color correcting is always time consuming for me.  You should try it out.  IMHO, it's a great option to have.  Time is a valuable commodity in our line of work.  It can be put to better use like marketing, networking, learning new business strategies, etc. instead of editing.


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## JacobPhoto

eal76 said:


> It has NOTHING to do with your time management (unless by "time management" you mean turning away clients). And, as for raising prices, it also has nothing to do with that. We raised our prices and the clients kept coming.


In general I have the same situation.


Vtec44 said:


> Time is a valuable commodity in our line of work. It can be put to better use like marketing, networking, learning new business strategies, etc. instead of editing.


I fully agree!
I've found a couple of post-production studios which work via Dropbox (preferable for me). I guess that small studio could match my editing style more attentively. Already made few trial orders but still open for your suggestions.


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## Derrel

When I want maple syrup, I plant a maple tree sapling, wait for it to grow (15 to 22 years), and then I tap it, and collect the sap,and eventually, that becomes delicious maple syrup. Controlling every fricking step in the process makes me feel good. I do the same with my beef...I raise the calf, then once he's grown into a nice hefty steer, I slaughter him, and with my brother and our kids, we then cut and wrap the meat. We also plow,disc,seed drill,irrigate, and then harvest wheat for our loaves of bread. We even mill the damned grains of wheat to make our own flour! We know that WE are the ONLY people capable of satisfying our desire for common commodities like wheat, syrup,and meat. It's all part of the idea that one must do every,single step in the process, or the results will be utter crap. Next year we're considering getting into iron ore mining...we need a new cast iron frying pan and Dutch oven set, and we're not really sure of the ability of the big specialists to make cast iron cookware that will meet our standards.


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## jake337

Derrel said:


> When I want maple syrup, I plant a maple tree sapling, wait for it to grow (15 to 22 years), and then I tap it, and collect the sap,and eventually, that becomes delicious maple syrup. Controlling every fricking step in the process makes me feel good. I do the same with my beef...I raise the calf, then once he's grown into a nice hefty steer, I slaughter him, and with my brother and our kids, we then cut and wrap the meat. We also plow,disc,seed drill,irrigate, and then harvest wheat for our loaves of bread. We even mill the damned grains of wheat to make our own flour! We know that WE are the ONLY people capable of satisfying our desire for common commodities like wheat, syrup,and meat. It's all part of the idea that one must do every,single step in the process, or the results will be utter crap. Next year we're considering getting into iron ore mining...we need a new cast iron frying pan and Dutch oven set, and we're not really sure of the ability of the big specialists to make cast iron cookware that will meet our standards.



While I Do agree I wonder how your beef would stack up to some Kobe beef in Japan.  Not saying you grow bad beef as I'm sure I would devour it.

I guess it depends on your needs/wants and your customer needs/wants.

If your customer needs Pratik Naik level retouching then you should hire Soltice Retouch or get to his level.


If I had extra cash I would love to see how a world class retoucher finishes one of my images.

  Maybe it's just me but I worksheet want to spend money on someone who can do it "just as good as me".  I'd want someone who was better than me. Once you start handing a part of the process to someone else you are now building a team.  You want good players.

It also can be fun to collaborate.


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## Derrel

I was thinking about some of the world-famous, successful shooters *who made entire careers* on shooting images that were "post-processed" into their final form *by somebody ELSE*, and not just "occasionally", but every day, for years and even decades and decades on end.

Marked Up Photographs Show How Iconic Prints Were Edited in the Darkroom
Magnum and the Dying Art of Darkroom Printing
Outsourcing Digital Photography Services to India - Outsource2india
Voja Mitrovic, Printer to the Greats (Part I)

"Voja Mitrovic, Printer to the Greats (Part I)"
Printer for HCB for 30 years, 1967-1997. Printer for Josef Koudelka. Also the printer for Peter Turnley, and for others, listed by Turnley himself as including but not limited to: "Sebastio Salgado, Werner Bischof, René Burri, Marc Riboud, Robert Doisneau, Edouard Boubat, Man Ray, Atget, Helmut Newton, Raymond Depardon, Bruno Barbey, Jean Gaumy, Frederic Brenner, Max Vadukul, and Peter Lindbergh "

Those are some of the BIGGEST names in the history of 20th century photography. People who turned their POST production work over to "somebody other than themselves."

A thought occurrs to me: what if the professional, paid image retoucher and Photoshop professional's skills is actually BETTER at post work than I am ? I know that MANY top-tier fashion shooters have ALL their post work done by "others".

What if I were to create well-exposed images, ones that were lighted well, focused well, and then I payed a post-processing specialist, with a powerful workstation-level computer and a suite of state of the art software and state of the art input devices (tablet,pen,etc), and he or she simply cranked out high-quality work with astounding speed based on my notes and my directives?

It's my understanding that much higher-end commercial advertising images are edited by somebody other than the person who pressed the shutter release. On the opposite side of the coin, I've been asked to process images shot by friends and family members, and I've been able to envision/find/extract VERY nice photos from source material that is not all that great right off the memory cards...

I KNOW for a fact that a top-flight Photoshop/Lightroom treatment can make a good image into a fine image, and a top-flight processing effort can turn an excellent image into a superb image.


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## manaheim

As a business problem, it's an interesting one. I tend to think that companies should never outsource what makes them special, because that's the "secret sauce". If my IT consulting company outsourced our IT support... we would lose what makes us special.

All that said, I once read a story about how Nike outsources everything... except marketing.

So... what does that say?

I think a lot of folks on here would balk at the idea of outsourcing the post-processing. It certainly was my gut reaction initially... but then I stopped and thought about the 12 weddings or so that I shot...

If you do a LOT of weddings that probably a large number of your images fall within certain repeating categories, and you likely have a pretty consistent style for treatment of these. I also bet you have a very small subset of images for each wedding that are truly unique and need your personal attention. Within that construct, I bet you could outsource a LOT of your editing to someone with a clue and make it work.  It's an interesting idea. (and obviously not a unique one, given some of the other comments here)


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## Dave442

I don't see any problem with outsourcing some post processing. In my regular line of work there are a number of things I outsource and often it is to reduce time at the computer.  Did a project last year where we were sending stuff to India at night and the next day we had processed information in hand.


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## Overread

In the film era wasn't a vast amount of work, even professional work, processed and even printed by a lab. And today many pros still use labs for printing work rather than printing at home - with many I know who print at home often being "on site" printers for events and thus needing a printing setup. 

Sure the more you control the more you can dictate what happens at each stage exactly as you want; but the higher your workload is. If you can get someone local in a team to work with you (several of the pros I know are a husband and wife combo - one shoots one edits/prints) then outsourcing part of the process can be a logical next step.

A few things to consider:
1) Invest in outsourcing to several establishments first with a variety of your common work. You want to contrast and compare their work rate along with their quality and communication as well as their costs. 

2) Always maintain strong communication lines; any that run silent or who are poor at communication are highlighting potential problems down the line. 

3) For editing I would always have it so that the edited works are run through  you before the client sees them. So before they are uploaded online or sent on disk or whatever they should pass your eyes for approval - that way you can make any fine adjustments you want; but you also know exactly what the client sees. No confusion if they suddenly complain.

4) Consider a course on processing workflow. Sure you might be considering outsourcing; but an adjustment to your workflow methodology could make wonders for your processing rate. Efficient use of software like Lightroom and Photoshop action could well cut down the hours you spend editing - especially if you are producing images for review and print selection (a rough run over for review - followed by touchup of fine details for the print on fewer shots)


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## 407370

I dont understand the dilemma?
If you have a preset formula for processing photographs then turn it into a batch process and do it with one of umpteen different packages designed to do that very thing. Call it a style but in reality if its digital then its just a bit of programming.
If you have specific post processing requirements for a particular set then a written description handed to someone who knows what they are doing should suffice.

Failing that if you give me a before and after pic with a description of what you did then I can write a batch process for you that will work with Irfanview or similar.
Each of the settings can be individually addressed and customised. Save different batch processes for weddings, landscapes, pornography etc





Of course things like spot healing / cloning would be done outside the batch process but 80 - 90 percent of the grunt work would be done by the batch and if you are processing 100 pics then its 100 processes that can be done by the touch of a button.


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## gsgary

The easiest way to get round your problem is to shoot better so you don't have much post work to do

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## JacobPhoto

gsgary said:


> The easiest way to get round your problem is to shoot better so you don't have much post work to do


I'm sorry, but it seems like we're from different planets.. My problem is not in bad or defective shots. My problem is that I'm engaged in MODERN wedding and portrait photography which ALWAYS requires some post-production.

Thank you guys for all thoughts here!


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## Overread

Don't mind Gary - he's mostly harmless ^


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## gsgary

JacobPhoto said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> The easiest way to get round your problem is to shoot better so you don't have much post work to do
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but it seems like we're from different planets.. My problem is not in bad or defective shots. My problem is that I'm engaged in MODERN wedding and portrait photography which ALWAYS requires some post-production.
> 
> Thank you guys for all thoughts here!
Click to expand...

I have pro wedding photography mates that don't  have problems sorting their photos but they charge £3000 and a friend that shots weddings on film and charges more but also get wedding albums to customers quicker than when he shot digital 

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## Overread

Aye Gary and I'm sure they've got good and valid working processes. However without a greater understanding of their process, method and out put (ergo how much they deliver) its impossible to compare to the OP's setup. They might wel be serving very different markets; furthermore the generalist "get good" just isn't much help.

We all aim to get better; but sometimes we reach a point where self learning reaches a peek or a block. The OP has clearly reached a point where something has to change for his company to continue to function as it should - outsourcing isn't a crime and could be the solution for his market and current business model - similarly investment in good editing software guides might well reveal a few ways he can cut down his workflow already.


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## calamityjane

Yesterday, I outsourced some retouching (just two frames) for the first time as a photographer (not as an ad agency bod) and it was the best use of my time (done overnight as the supplier was in the US) and money ($3.75 per image). It is not, as some in this thread have suggested, a case of 'getting it right in camera' (how on earth can you reduce rosacea on the subject's face in camera?! No, I did not have a MUA on the unpaid/speculative shoot). The work was minor for a pro retoucher but would have taken me hours as it's not what I do. As an ad agency bod, I understood clearly the value that a pro retoucher can add - why on earth would I attempt to do a job that is outside my specialism?! As a photographer we are often, unrealistically, expected (and therefore place the expectations on ourselves) to be world-class cinematographers, video editors, retouchers, MUAs, gaffers, etc. My suggestion is to know one's own limitations (whilst aiming to expand them), respect the expertise of others and recognise when it is more time and cost effective to outsource.


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## manaheim

Post processing has been around since well before computers were involved. In fact, since pretty much the beginning.


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## Vtec44

manaheim said:


> Post processing has been around since well before computers were involved. In fact, since pretty much the beginning.



Yep, dodging and burning.


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## Watchful

I think there is some envy expressing itself in some of the comments.
I don't have a go to editing solution for you as I think you need to find someone that will work with you more closely than just send it out and hope they share your sensibilities. Maybe its time to add an employee to your corporation.


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## gsgary

Vtec44 said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post processing has been around since well before computers were involved. In fact, since pretty much the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, dodging and burning.
Click to expand...

There's a lot more than dodging and burning

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## Vtec44

407370 said:


> There's a lot more than dodging and burning
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk



Obviously. DUH!   But those are the two most common things.


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## robbins.photo

calamityjane said:


> It is not, as some in this thread have suggested, a case of 'getting it right in camera' (how on earth can you reduce rosacea on the subject's face in camera?!



Doesn't your camera have that setting that automatically fires prosacea?  Maybe that's what the new VRIII settings will be for.. hmm....

Glad you found something that works for you though, sounds like the cost will be manageable and it should save you a lot of time.


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## sscarmack

JacobPhoto said:


> sscarmack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Time management.
> 
> 
> 
> How many shoots per week do you have? Time management, however, is not a panacea.
Click to expand...

Quality over quantity...Someone like yourself in the professional field should know better.


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## 407370

Vtec44 said:


> 407370 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot more than dodging and burning
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously. DUH!   But those are the two most common things.
Click to expand...

Eh that is interesting I never said that. Vtech44 said it.


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## manaheim

sscarmack said:


> JacobPhoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sscarmack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Time management.
> 
> 
> 
> How many shoots per week do you have? Time management, however, is not a panacea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quality over quantity...Someone like yourself in the professional field should know better.
Click to expand...


I would strongly caution anyone who is NOT a professional from standing judgment against someone who is. Heck, I'd strongly caution it for anyone who IS a professional. You just can't really know what their situation is.

I once scoffed at a guy who shot sporting events. "How can you not use RAW?!" says I.  "How can you batch process thousands of images with the same settings?!" says I. Little did I know. After some education I was like, "Ok, I'm an idiot." And I was a part-time paid professional photographer making some pretty good money.

So yeah.


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## Watchful

If a business owner has the opportunity and the ability to grow their business and increase their profitability and they choose not to, they might not be cut out to be a business owner.
For a business, the bottom line is the driving force, for an artist, its the work and any sales are unimportant in comparison.
I guess you need to choose art or business.


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## table1349

Perhaps you should study business a bit more.  Ever hear of The Pareto Principle?

The bottom line is the driving force that has put the economy in the situation that it is.


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## JacobPhoto

I see some fierce disputes here in the thread But I agree with manaheim:


manaheim said:


> I would strongly caution anyone who is NOT a professional from standing judgment against someone who is. Heck, I'd strongly caution it for anyone who IS a professional.


It's a bad idea to get into a power play with each other in photography. It will always be subjective. 
So, I've received my first edited set from one of post-production studios (2Canoes studio) and can already share my first experience. Well, as a matter of fact, it turns out that professional editor can be much more closer to my style than I thought. I think after a few orders we will understand each other without further explanations. In general, I'm pleased.

Please share your personal experience here. I think it would be much more helpful.


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## robbins.photo

manaheim said:


> I would strongly caution anyone who is NOT a professional from standing judgment against someone who is. Heck, I'd strongly caution it for anyone who IS a professional. You just can't really know what their situation is.
> 
> I once scoffed at a guy who shot sporting events. "How can you not use RAW?!" says I.  "How can you batch process thousands of images with the same settings?!" says I. Little did I know. After some education I was like, "Ok, I'm an idiot." And I was a part-time paid professional photographer making some pretty good money.
> 
> So yeah.



But on the flip side of that coin if your not willing to roast a few heretics at the stake now and again you run the risk of being tossed out of the Keepers of All Secret Photographic Knowledge.  They'll take your robe and everything.


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## manaheim

Share MY personal experiences?


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## robbins.photo

manaheim said:


> Share MY personal experiences?



Ok, wait.. I thought we had a very clear don't ask, don't tell, for the love of all that is holy don't share video policy on that kind of stuff, right?


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## manaheim

The videos would be illegal in most states.


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## Derrel

calamityjane said:


> Yesterday, I outsourced some retouching (just two frames) for the first time as a photographer (not as an ad agency bod) and it was the best use of my time (done overnight as the supplier was in the US) and money ($3.75 per image). It is not, as some in this thread have suggested, a case of 'getting it right in camera' (how on earth can you reduce rosacea on the subject's face in camera?! No, I did not have a MUA on the unpaid/speculative shoot). The work was minor for a pro retoucher but would have taken me hours as it's not what I do. As an ad agency bod, I understood clearly the value that a pro retoucher can add - why on earth would I attempt to do a job that is outside my specialism?! As a photographer we are often, unrealistically, expected (and therefore place the expectations on ourselves) to be world-class cinematographers, video editors, retouchers, MUAs, gaffers, etc. My suggestion is to know one's own limitations (whilst aiming to expand them), respect the expertise of others and recognise when it is more time and cost effective to outsource.





			
				JacobPhoto said:
			
		

> So, I've received my first edited set from one of post-production studios (2Canoes studio) and can already share my first experience. Well, as a matter of fact, it turns out that professional editor can be much more closer to my style than I thought. I think after a few orders we will understand each other without further explanations. In general, I'm pleased.



Seems like some rationality does indeed exist here in TPF land...even the OP's gone with his gut feeling, and has on his first outsourced set, had a positive outcome! I honestly think the idea of "doing it ALL" from start to finish is, in many cases, more about hubris than about rational evaluation of one's own talents.Over the years, I've seen work form many,many people that demonstrated good,solid in-camera work, but rather poor- to middlin'-grade post processing work. I've even told a few people,. directly, that their photography craft work, in-the field, is good, but that their post-processing would be better served by being handed off to somebody whop really excels in that realm.

I know a number of fishermen who are VERY good--but their chef skills are very,very weak, so while they're good at catchin', they're not all that hot at cookin' what they have caught. I really think it is unrealistic to think that every single shooter is equally good in post-processing and image optimizing as he or she is behind the camera eyepiece.


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## beagle100

Derrel said:


> calamityjane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I outsourced some retouching (just two frames) for the first time as a(whilst aiming to expand them), respect the expertise of others and recognise when it is more time and cost effective to outsource.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JacobPhoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I've received my first edited set from one of post-production studios (2Canoes studio) and can already share my first experience. Well, as a matter of fact, it turns out that professional editor can be much more closer to my style than I thought. I think after a few orders we will understand each other without further explanations. In general, I'm pleased.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know a number of fishermen who are VERY good--but their chef skills are very,very weak, so while they're good at catchin', they're not all that hot at cookin' what they have caught. I really think it is unrealistic to think that every single shooter is equally good in post-processing and image optimizing as he or she is behind the camera eyepiece.
Click to expand...


those wealthy photographers outsourcing their post processing work!
Maybe Scott Kelby was right when he said just get it right in the camera

*www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless*


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## paigew

I have outsourced a few images via retouch.com they do a great job. There are top wedding photos who outsource their editing. Especially for basic edits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.


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## pendennis

In the era between Daguerreotypes and digital, there existed the magic medium of negative photography.  I was fortunate to have done professional work then.

I started out thinking I could do it all; photograph, edit, sell, scout, etc.  It didn't take long to figure out that I had to cede control of some elements of my business processes.  I wasn't a particularly gifted printer.  I had done B/W and some color, but found a lot of the work tedious, and very time-consuming.

I could sell myself and my product, and I learned the technical side of taking the picture - composition, exposure, environmental conditions, etc.  I could also control the logistics, and the soft side of the business.  I developed a relationship with a local lab and one of their printing technicians.  He mostly worked "in the back" of the shop, hardly ever seeing the store's front counter.  He would advise me on my mistakes in exposure, mostly, and what the limits of darkroom work really were.  While he could machine print some enlargements, he'd also single print negatives which needed some extra work.  He provided me with notes which I included with my own.

I took courses on time management, work flow, theory of constraints, etc.  Those were eye openers, and it improved my concept of business immensely.

So, yes, if you believe you can't control everything, then you can't.  Recognize your own weaknesses and shortcomings, and play to your strengths.


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## TheLibrarian

One of my first jobs at 17 was I think editing and printing wedding albums. I say i think because all I did was set the color and minor cropping. Not sure what he did to give me the negatives. Thats all that was done in those days dodging and burning were done by hand in the dark room. Much less all the photoshop lightroom stuff these days which i don't bother too much with SOOC4life. Ukranians and Chinese on model mayhem want 3-5$ per photo thats too much for a whole album. Part time teenager can bang out at least 4 an hour for 8-9$ an hour. Once i got a color scheme for a roll he had me run the whole roll at those settings to save time. Of course we were printing the stuff with a huge machine too so I had a physical product when i was done then the lady who manned the front (took rolls to be developed from customers and I did those too on another machine) she cut them up and put them in the book. Of course then you have full and part time staff and a store front and the legal stuff that should go with all that. If you're churning out wedding albums week after week how much editing should each picture really need? If people are paying high end for fashion magazine quality pictures then they deserve that money to go into the production process. Sorry, didn't realize its been sorted out and its "modern" wedding photography. Back in the day we churned em out.


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## GeraldEdward

nothing wrong with out sourcing if you find a retoucher that matches your style.

we only really make money when were selling, and in order to sell we need to create something.  the more time we have for shooting the more product we have that we can sell.


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## paigew

Coming back to this thread three years later!! I am way busier with my photo biz (yay!) and I have an assistant who helps me with a lot of my editing, especially when it comes to high volume shoots.


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## Derrel

I was kind of surprised to see this thread resurrected.


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## ClickAddict

Derrel said:


> I was kind of surprised to see this thread resurrected.


Just wondering if you ever got that cast Iron pan finished?


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