# Good enough?



## Christie Photo (Mar 13, 2007)

This may be a bit touchy...

It's not unusual when reading critiques here to come across the phrase, "I know your customer will love it, and that's all that really matters."

Really?

I hope not.  If we're the photographers, isn't it more important that we, with our background, want more?  If we satisfy someone who has little or no knowledge of what we do or what is possible, it that really all that matters?

If I deliver a photograph that's mediocre, and the customer accepts it, have I let them down?  Did I "get away" with something?

Pete


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## Big Mike (Mar 13, 2007)

On one hand...if the initial goal that we set out to achieve...is to please the client, then I guess we could argue that...yes, it is enough to satisfy someone who has little or no knowledge of what we do or what is possible.

On the other hand, I think that most of us (or at least, the artist inside of us) will always strive to do the best that we can...to do better even.  Most of us are our own worst critics...and on some level, are never truly satisfied because there is always something that could have been done better or differently.

With that in mind, do we want to agonize over every shot...thinking or knowing that it could be better?  Or do we want to be satisfied that our client is happy?

Then there is the fact that art is subjective.  One person may think it's a masterpiece while another person will think it's crap.  If our idea of perfection is different than our client's (and every one's idea of perfection is at least slightly different) then how can we ever truly achieve a perfect scenario of both us and the client being completely satisfied?

Sorry, I may be wandering too far off topic.

When I give a comment like "I know your customer will love it"...I don't say it as if to say 'you compromised but it won't matter because clients are idiots'.  It's more to say that it's an image that would please a lot of people and probably/hopfully your clients among them.

Does that makes sense?


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## smyth (Mar 13, 2007)

I think generally when people say that, they mean they don't neccesarily like the photo, but if the client likes it, that's the most important thing. After all the customer is always right. Well most of the time anyways.


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## dewey (Mar 13, 2007)

The first few times I fell in love with some wedding shots I took and then watched the customer pick out the nastys in the bunch I was shocked.  How could they not pick the shots with the best composition?  How could they not pick the ones with the best color and lighting?  

Then I remembered that I had already cashed their check. 

I think that critiques here sometimes wander off into the corn fields.  I posted some selective color a few months back and most of what I got was "jeez I don't like selective color".  That helps.  I don't really like it either, but that's waht the customer asked for and I was looking for opinions about selective color.  Does it matter that I don't like them?  No.  Does it matter that most here don't like them?  No.  What matters is I fufilled the order from my customer and they were happy.

I think it IS important to learn from each other here, but in the end nothing matters except for what the client wants.

Now... let's seperate the three aspects of my photography right now and talk about who's opinion matters where...  This may be wandering off into those same corn fields I just whined about. 

*
1) Weddings / Portraits*  -  This is where I make most of my income from photography.  Whatever the customer wants is what they get here.  I laugh to myself when a client asks me for an opinion and then does whatever they want anyway.  This is photography they are buying for their home or office.  My photographic education or opinion doesn't matter to them when they look at the print on the wall... they just want something pretty.

Don;t get me wrong I really love wedding photography and I am always trying to better myself, but from experience people buy the "same old same old" more often than not.  Does that mean I don't shoot cool things in a neat different style when I can?  Nope, but it does mean I dang sure get the boring shots because they sell like crazy!!!

*2)  Photojournalism*  -  I may move into photojournalism later in life, so I practice this when I can to build my portfolio and build relationships in the industry.  I'm a freelancer for 2 local papers, the Associated Press and the Canadian Press.  I don't too often set out to do this type of work except for hurricanes or major disasters so more often than not it's just stumbling across a crash or a fire.  I strive to get good creative shots, but I realize that in the end the photo editor is the only persons opinion who matters.

*3)  Landscape / Nature  / Travel * -  I love nature, travel and landscape photography.  I sell framed prints of my work, but at this point it's just icing on the cash cake - not real serious money.  I have sold images to a few calendar houses, but it was for cheap.  This is where I RULE THE CASTLE.  Nobody else matters here - I would rather end up with a piece of art that I know is my vision and not sell it than take pictures of the same crap every photographer has at the art shows.  This is where my opinion is king and I certainly get great ideas and suggestions here at the Photo Forum.

Okay back on task...

I think as photographers and as business people we have to be able to recognize when we should be pushing our opinions and styles and when we should just say "yes ma'am" and push the shutter release... to me some photography is personal and some is just business.

Pete you mention delivering a mediocre photo, but who thinks it's mediocre?  If the customer thinks so then I agree you're in trouble, but if it's you who thinks it mediocre I think you should remember they might think it's the cat's meow!


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## dewey (Mar 13, 2007)

smyth said:


> I think generally when people say that, they mean they don't neccesarily like the photo, but if the client likes it, that's the most important thing. After all the customer is always right. Well most of the time anyways.



:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Christie Photo (Mar 13, 2007)

smyth said:


> I think generally when people say that, they mean they don't neccesarily like the photo, but if the client likes it, that's the most important thing. After all the customer is always right. Well most of the time anyways.



But is that helpful?  Does a statement like that help the maker learn or improve?

Futher, a photographer will occasionally use that statement to defend shortcomings in his/her work...  pretty much a tread-stopper for me.


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## Peanuts (Mar 13, 2007)

I have worked at a lab for a while, and you (speaking to the general reader) would be surprised at just how many times I hear customers say "I can't believe the photographer didn't centre this! So when it is printed, please crop." There is the odd time when you can convince them by using a crop tool or just paper over the negatives that it is more aesthetically pleasing following the 'rule of thirds' (though not saying that) then completely central. Though most of the time they know precisely what they are looking for and stop at nothing. I have not shot a single event even under a professional yet so I don't have the personal experience, but I can see where it can be frustrating trying to improve your work meanwhile what the clients may want is actually a regression. That doesn't quite pertain directly to the question posed, but just a thought that stemmed off of it.

I think recently I made a similar comment, except it ended in, "I know if I was a client, I would be very pleased', which correlates precisely to what Big Mike stated.  Oh, now I think I have gone off on a tanget - I am curious to what others have to say.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 13, 2007)

Big Mike said:


> ...do we want to agonize over every shot...thinking or knowing that it could be better?



Well...  agony may be too strong a word, but...

Don't we want to apply what we know to every image?  I guess what I mean to ask is shouldn't we learn to stop to consider all elements of an image before we trip the shutter?



Big Mike said:


> Then there is the fact that art is subjective.



Surely.  I think most of agree too there are conventions to which we should try to adhear.  Isn't that what critiques are all about?  Don't we try to offer how an image has met or broken from convention and explore if it was successful to do so or not?


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## Christie Photo (Mar 13, 2007)

dewey said:


> The first few times I fell in love with some wedding shots I took and then watched the customer pick out the nastys in the bunch I was shocked.  How could they not pick the shots with the best composition?  How could they not pick the ones with the best color and lighting?



Oh, God!  I know!  It's usually the expression they want when this happens to me.



dewey said:


> ...in the end nothing matters except for what the client wants.



I have (only rarely) told potential clients that maybe I'm not the guy for the job.  Once in a while, someone will ask me for something very specific that I don't want my name on, and I bow out.  Maybe that's why I never made a ton of money.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 13, 2007)

Peanuts said:


> Oh, now I think I have gone off on a tanget - I am curious to what others have to say.



Oh, I don't think this is off topic.  Thanks!

And thanks to everyone who's weighed in so far.  I too am curious to hear more.


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## danalec99 (Mar 14, 2007)

This would depend on individual goals. 

I think Photography will be an emotionally rich journey if we aim to please ourselves first. If there is a client base for what we do from within, great! 

I personally do not show an image that I do not like. Period. They might like it, but if I sell that image, I'm not promoting my individual 'vision', which is important for me.


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## craig (Mar 14, 2007)

As I got into commercial work and even as a young assistant I realized that I have to deliver exactly what the client wants. Never mediocre, because I work hard to deliver the shot and they are the best that I can do. Sometimes they demand the impossible. That's when I am proud. Sometimes I say; well if that is what you want... Thankfully that does not happen often. 

This is from my commercial/editorial background. I can train my clients. I know that wedding/event style is a whole different world.

Love and Bass


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## benjikan (Mar 14, 2007)

Christie Photo said:


> This may be a bit touchy...
> 
> It's not unusual when reading critiques here to come across the phrase, "I know your customer will love it, and that's all that really matters."
> 
> ...



You set the standard, not the client.  Only you get set the barometer of acceptability.  YOU ARE THE ARTIST, YOU MAKE THAT DECISION...I have always strived to push the envelope.  I get easily bored with my work and have to evolve.  But hey that's just me.  Invariable it all comes down to having to live with yourself...


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## craig (Mar 15, 2007)

A good Mantra is:

SUCCESS CAN BE MEASURED MORE TRUTHFULLY BY INTERNAL RATHER THAN EXTERNAL CRITERIA.

That especially pertains to commercial photography. 

Love and Bass


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## Jim Gratiot (Mar 15, 2007)

> If I deliver a photograph that's mediocre, and the customer accepts it, have I let them down? Did I "get away" with something?


My first instinct (with, say, wedding photos) is to say that if your client loves your photos, that's all that matters... on the other hand, from the photographers p.o.v., the key to your question is "If I deliver a photograph that's mediocre."

I think that there are many among us who would never deliver what we would consider to be a mediocre photograph.

The other side of the coin is, of course... what do you do if you deliver a technically or artistically "beautiful" photograph that the client hates?


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## Flash Harry (Mar 15, 2007)

dewey said:


> The first few times I fell in love with some wedding shots I took and then watched the customer pick out the nastys in the bunch I was shocked. How could they not pick the shots with the best composition? How could they not pick the ones with the best color and lighting?
> 
> Same here, they also always seem to pick the ones that need most pp work. I give up


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## ksmattfish (Mar 17, 2007)

Is perfection attainable?  Is working on creating the perfect photograph what the client wants or needs?

I took on a project for an advertising campaign where my job was to get on-the-job portraits of various hospital employees.  Mostly the portraits would be used in TV ads, brochures, and websites.  When I started out I wasn't using digital, and did most of the photography with a Pentax 67II.  The image quality pleased the heck out of me, but the client really wasn't thrilled that it took me a week to get it processed and scanned, and they just didn't need the high quality provided by the 6x7cm film.  This project lasted several years (still going on), and the photos I took for them in the last few years were taken with a Canon 20D.  No where near the impressive quality of the 67II, but all around faster:  no film loading every 10 shots, no extra shots to make sure I got it (without blinks, etc...), and it could be processed and emailed to the art director that afternoon.  It was easier for me, easier for the subjects, and easier for the client.  If given a choice between time consuming perfection (or at least as close to it as possible), and timely "good enough", the clients were much happier with "good enough".

When shooting weddings I could do a much better job if given a few hours to work with the subjects.  But what the B & G usually want is quick and painless wedding day photography, which means I have to move very quickly and take shortcuts to get all of the posed portraits of the B & G, wedding party, family, etc... in an hour of less.  I think I do a good job when rushed, but give me more time, and I'd do even better, but would the clients be happier?  Some of the people I have to deal with treat being photographed like getting teeth pulled. 

In my personal work I often revisit subjects again and again trying to improve upon past efforts.  I re-process photographs to apply new techniques I've learned since the last time.  I don't see perfection as possible, but I just keep working to do it better as long as I can.  

To me the most important thing when photographing for clients is to make them happy/fulfill their needs with what I deliver.  If I'm happy too, that's great, but sometimes their happiness/needs don't mesh with my personal preferences as to how I'd like things to be done.

EDIT:  Thinking about this a little more...

I actually walk away from a lot of jobs/projects a little depressed because I am concerned that I didn't or wasn't able to do the very best job possible.  I dwell upon what I could have done differently (better).  I worry about if I missed opportunities that I should have taken.  I wonder if I shouldn't have been more assertive, and demanded to do it my way.  I obsess over every mistake I notice.  And then I get a call from the client saying they love it.  So I let it go, and just always try to do the best I can in the circumstances I am given next time.

Someday it would be wonderful if people came to me and said, "You're the boss.  We will do everything the way you say to do it."  But more often than not, it's "This is what we need done, and here are the restrictions you'll be working under."


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## xfloggingkylex (Mar 19, 2007)

from a business aspect I would say the customer being pleased is in fact all that matters, but on a deeper level I hope all photographers strive to produce the best work they can realistically produce.  If you half-heart (or other part of the body) your work as a way of making the same money for less work... well I hope as an artist you have trouble sleeping knowing that you settled for less.


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