# I HATE CRAIGSLIST PHOTOGRAPHERS



## RockstarPhotography

So, I just lost a gig to a "craigslist photographer".  I was suppose to shoot a band for their upcoming album but got an email today saying they found a photographer on craigslist that would do it for 50 bucks.  I even dropped my price for this band.  I had locations scouted, ideas from the band, everything was set.  Now I lost it to a point and shoot with a dslr.  At least I know in the end, it will end up hurting them much more then it hurts me.


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## e.rose

Don't fret.  When their **** stinks... they'll come back to you.  And if they're too dumb to realize that **** they got stinks... then you don't want them as clients anyway.


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## Robin Usagani

BUAHAHAHAHA.... I stole your client  LOL  JK.  I told you most local bands wont pay anything.  This is what I learned from CL:
1. bunch of flakers.  No phone call no email on the cancelation.
2. dont pay much.


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## RockstarPhotography

If they come back their not getting the "discounted" rate i gave them.  I have a referral program that if your referred to me from another band you get a discount.  They just lost it if they come back.


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## RauschPhotography

Wow, bad situation.  Hopefully they learn something about cheap craigslists photographers, as well. They'll be wishing they had stuck with you!


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## imagemaker46

That sucks, it's unfortunate when crap like that happens.


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## c.cloudwalker

Why hate CL photogs?

They are doing you a favor by taking away the clients you don't actually want.


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## RockstarPhotography

It comes to the point sometimes where I wonder how much of my "extra" expense in shooting is worth it.  Things like insurance.  Of course my gear is insured, but I'm also insured if ANYTHING goes wrong.  I'm even covered if i tell them to take a step back, they fall and break their arm, i'm insured for it.  Its added expense that I, of course, have to keep into consideration.  Along with all the taxes and paperwork involved in running a LEGITIMATE business.  But even if I drop all of that (i wouldn't) trying to compete with someone charging 50 bucks is impossible when you have to pay rent, bills, diapers, and food.


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## c.cloudwalker

So start going after the clients that DO pay the bills.

Why you are looking on CL is not something I understand. The people who shop there are not the ones I want as customers, PERIOD.

It takes as much time to sell a job for $5,000 as it does to sell one for $50. Why spend any time trying to sell one for $50?


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## RockstarPhotography

c.cloudwalker said:


> So start going after the clients that DO pay the bills.
> 
> Why you are looking on CL is not something I understand. The people who shop there are not the ones I want as customers, PERIOD.
> 
> It takes as much time to sell a job for $5,000 as it does to sell one for $50. Why spend any time trying to sell one for $50?


 
re-read my post.  I did not go on craigslist.  I LOST a job to a craigslist photographer.  The band was refereed to me by another band I shot.  They emailed me and said they found someone on craigslist that would shoot cheaper.


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## kundalini

RockstarPhotography said:


> ...... Now I lost it to a point and shoot with a dslr. At least I know in the end, it will end up hurting them much more then it hurts me.


Isn't that an assumption?  Do you know for fact that the $50 whore cannot shoot a decent photo?  The loss of business is bad for you, but that's the price of doing business.  The $50 whore may get equally screwed.  Karma ........ it's a wonderful thing.


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## MichiganFarts

RockstarPhotography said:


> re-read my post.  I did not go on craigslist.  I LOST a job to a craigslist photographer.  The band was *refereed* to me by another band I shot.  They emailed me and said they found someone on craigslist that would shoot cheaper.


 

that's where you went wrong... nobody likes to listen to the ref's


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## c.cloudwalker

RockstarPhotography said:


> re-read my post.  I did not go on craigslist.


 
You are correct. But the rest of my post is still ok. Go after worthy clients and they won't switch to a CL photog.


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## bennielou

Your work is really good, so they lost out.  Now the door is open for you to get a better gig.  Sometimes a loss is a blessing.


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## RockstarPhotography

I'm working on it.  only being in denver 4 months I have so build cliental someplace and I'm used to word of mouth advertising which is what this band was.  Moving from a smaller city to a large one is pretty much like starting over.  I have to find people, find locations, learn the different aspects of my business here tax and law wise, all while supporting my family.  In Fargo I had top notch clients (for fargo).  its a bigger ball game here, and I'm adjusting, but it gets frustrating.  With the new digital area and the prices on dslr's dropping EVERYONE is a photographer.  When I shot film it was so different.  You had cost up front just to shoot with film and processing.  now anybody can just put an image on a cd for pretty much no cost.


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## bennielou

Well I'm betting everyone with a few bucks for a DSLR can't produce the work you do, so have heart.  It's been a funky year for everyone charging a decent rate.  But I've been watching FB, and people are really getting burned by the el cheapos.  Hopefully it's a trend that won't last to long.
You have quality work and there ARE people who will appreciate that.  Hang in there.


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## RockstarPhotography

bennielou said:


> Well I'm betting everyone with a few bucks for a DSLR can't produce the work you do, so have heart.  It's been a funky year for everyone charging a decent rate.  But I've been watching FB, and people are really getting burned by the el cheapos.  Hopefully it's a trend that won't last to long.
> You have quality work and there ARE people who will appreciate that.  Hang in there.



Thank you.  Although I don't see this as a passing thing.  camera's are getting better and cheaper with no overhead cost anymore.  more and more hobbyists are going "pro" (only on weekends of course).  I never minded it before, because I had higher end cliental.  But starting over I'm now in competition with these people.  I grew up in photography, my father and grandfather were photographers.  I was assisting before I can remember.  I could tell you the f stops at age 6.  To watch somebody spend 800 bucks on a camera and kit lens and take away my business hurts......to say the least.


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## c.cloudwalker

Whine, whine, whine... I feel like playing the smallest violin in the world for you right now.

Except I said the exact same thing once upon a time until someone told me the exact same thing I'm telling you. And as a result, I went from shooting a local band's promo shot for $2, or 3 or 400 to ten times as much with international bands. Does it take work? Absolutely. But so does everything that makes money.

I mean you can shoot portraits at Wally World for minimum wage or you can do the same ones for a whole lot more money for Obama by doing the right kind of marketing.

And, NO, it doesn't happen overnight and it is work.

Get to work.


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## RockstarPhotography

c.cloudwalker said:


> Whine, whine, whine... I feel like playing the smallest violin in the world for you right now.
> 
> Except I said the exact same thing once upon a time until someone told me the exact same thing I'm telling you. And as a result, I went from shooting a local band's promo shot for $2, or 3 or 400 to ten times as much with international bands. Does it take work? Absolutely. But so does everything that makes money.
> 
> I mean you can shoot portraits at Wally World for minimum wage or you can do the same ones for a whole lot more money for Obama by doing the right kind of marketing.
> 
> And, NO, it doesn't happen overnight and it is work.
> 
> Get to work.


 
you just made a thread bitching about your printing job.  I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.


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## c.cloudwalker

RockstarPhotography said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whine, whine, whine... I feel like playing the smallest violin in the world for you right now.
> 
> Except I said the exact same thing once upon a time until someone told me the exact same thing I'm telling you. And as a result, I went from shooting a local band's promo shot for $2, or 3 or 400 to ten times as much with international bands. Does it take work? Absolutely. But so does everything that makes money.
> 
> I mean you can shoot portraits at Wally World for minimum wage or you can do the same ones for a whole lot more money for Obama by doing the right kind of marketing.
> 
> And, NO, it doesn't happen overnight and it is work.
> 
> Get to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you just made a thread bitching about your printing job.  I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.
Click to expand...


Wrong idiot. LOL


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## RockstarPhotography

c.cloudwalker said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whine, whine, whine... I feel like playing the smallest violin in the world for you right now.
> 
> Except I said the exact same thing once upon a time until someone told me the exact same thing I'm telling you. And as a result, I went from shooting a local band's promo shot for $2, or 3 or 400 to ten times as much with international bands. Does it take work? Absolutely. But so does everything that makes money.
> 
> I mean you can shoot portraits at Wally World for minimum wage or you can do the same ones for a whole lot more money for Obama by doing the right kind of marketing.
> 
> And, NO, it doesn't happen overnight and it is work.
> 
> Get to work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you just made a thread bitching about your printing job.  I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong idiot. LOL
Click to expand...


I'm sure it don't bother you being one of the craigslist weekend photographers.  but to those of us that make a living at it it does.  and I was wrong about the thread.  it was somebody else, I'm sorry


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## CCericola

This is why you need to have contracts and down payments. And it doesn't matter who the client is. USE A CONTRACT. You could have at least been paid for your research in locations.


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## kundalini

RockstarPhotography said:


> you just made a thread bitching about your printing job. I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.






RockstarPhotography said:


> ok then. F&*$ you. Is that better then thank you? Is that what you want to hear?




   Is that the normal way to thank someone in Colorado?


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## MichiganFarts

RockstarPhotography said:


> you just made a thread bitching about your printing job.  I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.


 
Well...I wouldn't describe it as tearing you down, but I did misunderstand your meaning...I thought you were being sarcastic...anyway, carry on here, and thanks for the support...no hard feelings I hope.


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## FattyMcJ

Happens a lot here in Denver man, get used to it.  Doesn't make it suck any less though, that's for sure.

Like others have said, the band will realize that you get what you pay for...and they'll be back.  I would welcome them to come back, politely, after they've worked with the CL photographer by saying something like, "I completely understand the desire to save money in this economy, and I applaud your effort.  When you decide that you'd like higher quality photos of your band than what $50 can get you, I'll gladly accept your job and I look forward to working with you soon."

Or something like that...maybe not so snide lol


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## RockstarPhotography

kundalini said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> you just made a thread bitching about your printing job. I actually thanked you in that thread, and you tore me down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok then. F&*$ you. Is that better then thank you? Is that what you want to hear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the normal way to thank someone in Colorado?
Click to expand...

 
your taking 2 threads and putting it into one.  I was wrong in thinking that was the poster of that thread if you would bother to read.    and for the second one.  They posted a thread about how hard there job was printing.  I THANKED THEM for all the hard work they did and they tore me down so i posted that.  Apparently they didn't want a thank you. Take the time to read please.


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## Trever1t

I wouldn't consider myself in the same class with a $50 shooter and I don't work professionally. If your prospective client chose a $50 photographer over you then he/they obviously aren't interested in quality work and I wouldn't even fret.

...add to this. If they found that their $50 was a waste of money they'd find my rates had since increased


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## bennielou

That's a bummer Rockstar photography.  Another photog in town were talking about this the other day.  There was a time that we thought it wouldn't effect us.  But then finally it started to have an impact on a whole lot of us.  I've seen some wonderful photogs go down this year.  I was asking my friend how that could happen because the craigslister and we had different clients.  The earthquake in Japan had just happened and he said to me, " it's kinda like that earthquake in Japan,  and now they have tsunami  warnings for California.  It's the ripple effect". The more I thought about it, the more sense it made.  While craigslister types don't directly effect me, they effect the next price range, which effects the next one, and on and on I guess.
Anyhoo, I feel for you having to start over in such a tough time.
I still have hope that things will turn around.  This year is a bit below average, but we gotta hang in there.


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## MichiganFarts

RockstarPhotography said:


> your taking 2 threads and putting it into one.  I was wrong in thinking that was the poster of that thread if you would bother to read.    and for the second one.  They posted a thread about how hard there job was printing.  I THANKED THEM for all the hard work they did and they tore me down so i posted that.  Apparently they didn't want a thank you. Take the time to read please.



To be fair to me, all my thank you's were sarcastically aimed at the "graphic artist"...and your thank you looked to me, aimed at the graphic artist also...yet crediting them with the things I did, and defending them...just how I read it.  Misreads happen sometimes...especially on long shifts .


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## bennielou

I'm lost cloud.  Are you shooting in the white house press core now?  I'm so confused.  I need to catch up on the forums I think.


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## kundalini

RockstarPhotography said:


> .......... Take the time to read please.


I know exactly what I did, I do read and my comprehension is just fine. I like to make funnies out of asshats. You're bitchin' about some $50 photo whore. Phuque off and pull your bootstraps up. Get on with it.


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## Robin Usagani

RockstarPhotography said:


> I'm sure it don't bother you being one of the craigslist weekend photographers. but to those of us that *make a living at it* it does.


 
I am sorry if I am wrong. I have been following your threads you posted since day 1 you joined this forum. I followed you because you are from Colorado. I have seen your flickr account. My guess is you are like "most" of us here (including me and those Craigslist photographers you are bitching about) who are weekend warriors. Do you really make a living from photography? What did you make last year from photography? Can you show me photos of your paying gigs? Sorry man, I just think you really misused the term "make a living" on this forum. And I have seen you do that many times on this forum. I do make money here and there for extra income from photography. I dont call my self "make a living" from photography. If you are like Monty Nuss or Sandy Puc (famous CO photogs) then OK.. you do make a living from photography. Like I said, the only reason I am being nosey is because you are from Colorado.


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## RockstarPhotography

bennielou said:


> I'm lost cloud.  Are you shooting in the white house press core now?  I'm so confused.  I need to catch up on the forums I think.



lol. no, we got 2 threads mixed into one.


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## RockstarPhotography

bennielou said:


> I'm lost cloud.  Are you shooting in the white house press core now?  I'm so confused.  I need to catch up on the forums I think.



lol. no, we got 2 threads mixed into one.


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## bennielou

Ok, I'm so confused by cloud saying he shoots international bands and Obama for a living.  Or not for a living.   Or maybe i just cant keep up with this thread. I'm so confused.  I guess you have to be sandy puc to make a living at photography by definition.  Whew!  What a thread!  I guess I'm gonna have to go find a real job.


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## Rekd

bennielou said:


> I'm lost cloud.  Are you shooting in the white house press core now?  I'm so confused.  I need to catch up on the forums I think.


 
Ditto.


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## RockstarPhotography

Schwettylens said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure it don't bother you being one of the craigslist weekend photographers. but to those of us that *make a living at it* it does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry if I am wrong. I have been following your threads you posted since day 1 you joined this forum. I followed you because you are from Colorado. I have seen your flickr account. My guess is you are like "most" of us here (including me and those Craigslist photographers you are bitching about) who are weekend warriors. Do you really make a living from photography? What did you make last year from photography? Can you show me photos of your paying gigs? Sorry man, I just think you really misused the term "make a living" on this forum. And I have seen you do that many times on this forum. I do make money here and there for extra income from photography. I dont call my self "make a living" from photography. If you are like Monty Nuss or Sandy Puc (famous CO photogs) then OK.. you do make a living from photography. Like I said, the only reason I am being nosey is because you are from Colorado.
Click to expand...


I made 60,000 last year in photography.  If you don't believe me PM me, I'll give you my address in englewood and your more then welcome to come look at my tax returns yourself


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## Robin Usagani

Where are these pictures that made you that much money?


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## Trever1t

so why worry about a client that wants a $50 photographer?


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## Fern

Wow, reading various threads today I'd say the fotog folks are a bit grouchy...


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## Robin Usagani

Fern said:


> Wow, reading various threads today I'd say the fotog folks are a bit grouchy...


 
STFU!


LOL


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## RockstarPhotography

The pictures are property of the company I shot them for.  I have no rights to them.  still waiting on you pm schwettylens.  I have paperwork to back everything up and you what, 30 minutes from me?  Come over and take a look.  I have nothing to hide.


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## RockstarPhotography

Trever1t said:


> so why worry about a client that wants a $50 photographer?


 
because I still have to make a living.


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## Davor

I did a few gigs recently that i charged $50 for since it was all they could afford. I made photos that i should have charged over 300-400 but those local bands are broke as ****


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## o hey tyler

What's the company's name that you shot the photos for? Just out of curiosity.


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## RockstarPhotography

Pioneer Drilling


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## Robin Usagani

RockstarPhotography said:


> The pictures are property of the company I shot them for. I have no rights to them. still waiting on you pm schwettylens. I have paperwork to back everything up and you what, 30 minutes from me? Come over and take a look. I have nothing to hide.


 
Dude, It is pretty easy to spot someone who has an established photography business.  
1. they have a website
2. they have **** load of amazing photos taken years back

On the top of that, you complained about  this guy stole your client for $50 but yet I found this thread you just posted where you are willing to do it for free.  Yes.. google is amazing.

Colorado Music Scene.net | Powered by Monument Sound &bull; View topic - Band Photography


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## o hey tyler

Schwettylens said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> The pictures are property of the company I shot them for. I have no rights to them. still waiting on you pm schwettylens. I have paperwork to back everything up and you what, 30 minutes from me? Come over and take a look. I have nothing to hide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, It is pretty easy to spot someone who has an established photography business.
> 1. they have a website
> 2. they have **** load of amazing photos taken years back
> 
> On the top of that, you complained about  this guy stole your client for $50 but yet I found this thread you just posted where you are willing to do it for free.  Yes.. google is amazing.
> 
> Colorado Music Scene.net | Powered by Monument Sound &bull; View topic - Band Photography
Click to expand...

 
Super burn. Taking photos for a drilling/construction company does not a portrait photographer make.


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## RockstarPhotography

you are correct.  I've been trying to build cliental here.  I did that out of desperation, but never got any responses and I ended up finding clients through word of mouth.....still waiting on your pm.   I'll even meet you somewhere, or are you scared I may actually be telling the truth.


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## RockstarPhotography

o hey tyler said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> The pictures are property of the company I shot them for. I have no rights to them. still waiting on you pm schwettylens. I have paperwork to back everything up and you what, 30 minutes from me? Come over and take a look. I have nothing to hide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, It is pretty easy to spot someone who has an established photography business.
> 1. they have a website
> 2. they have **** load of amazing photos taken years back
> 
> On the top of that, you complained about  this guy stole your client for $50 but yet I found this thread you just posted where you are willing to do it for free.  Yes.. google is amazing.
> 
> Colorado Music Scene.net | Powered by Monument Sound &bull; View topic - Band Photography
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Super burn. Taking photos for a drilling/construction company does not a portrait photographer make.
Click to expand...


so if you were a portrait photographer, and got offered the opportunity to shoot for a drilling company making good money you would say no?  "sorry, i do portraits, i have to turn this down."


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## o hey tyler

Well, what did you show them for your portfolio that got you hired? Surely you own the rights to those images and still have the originals.


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## Robin Usagani

Just start posting amazing pics.  That will shut most people up including me.


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## RockstarPhotography

I own no rights to the photos.  yes, i still have the originals.  If your hired to work for a company as a photographer the company owns the photos, not you.  I showed them nothing for my portfolio.  I'll be dead up honest here.  I didn't get the job because of my photography skills, I got the job because I had 7 years in the patch and they knew I wouldn't get myself killed out there shooting photos.  If you stand in the wrong place on a rig floor your history, they needed someone that knew their way around a rig.  My best friend's wife's dad was head of the ND division so I got the job through that.


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## Robin Usagani

RockstarPhotography said:


> I'm working on it. only being in denver 4 months I have so build cliental someplace and I'm used to word of mouth advertising which is what this band was. Moving from a smaller city to a large one is pretty much like starting over. I have to find people, find locations, learn the different aspects of my business here tax and law wise, all while supporting my family.* In Fargo I had top notch clients (for fargo).* its a bigger ball game here, and I'm adjusting, but it gets frustrating. With the new digital area and the prices on dslr's dropping EVERYONE is a photographer. When I shot film it was so different. You had cost up front just to shoot with film and processing. now anybody can just put an image on a cd for pretty much no cost.


 
Is this clientele the oil company you worked for as well?  So you are saying you have 0 experience in band photography that is why you shoot for free.  Stop PMing me.  I have no interest in talking with you in private nor meeting you in person.  I have better things to do.


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## RockstarPhotography

Schwettylens said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm working on it. only being in denver 4 months I have so build cliental someplace and I'm used to word of mouth advertising which is what this band was. Moving from a smaller city to a large one is pretty much like starting over. I have to find people, find locations, learn the different aspects of my business here tax and law wise, all while supporting my family.* In Fargo I had top notch clients (for fargo).* its a bigger ball game here, and I'm adjusting, but it gets frustrating. With the new digital area and the prices on dslr's dropping EVERYONE is a photographer. When I shot film it was so different. You had cost up front just to shoot with film and processing. now anybody can just put an image on a cd for pretty much no cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this clientele the oil company you worked for as well?  So you are saying you have 0 experience in band photography that is why you shoot for free.  Stop PMing me.  I have no interest in talking with you in private nor meeting you in person.  I have better things to do.
Click to expand...

 
hey, you called ME out remember? ......now stand the f%&* up and quit hiding behind the keyboard.


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## Robin Usagani

I got nothing to hide.  I picked up my DSLR exactly like 1 year ago.  I am as new as a lot of people on this forum.  I want to be a wedding photographer in the weekends.   So yes I got a couple of cheap gigs from CL to get me going.  I take a lot of heat from people for doing weddings when I have only shot for a few months.  I did my homework though.  Now my business is about to really get going.  So yes, I was one of those people on CL.  You are doing exactly what I was doing and most people on CL.  Stop being a hypocrite.


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## RockstarPhotography

I offered 2 free shoots to bands on a musician forum here in denver to get my name out.  I've been assisting and shooting since I can remember.  I grew up with film, I have a darkroom, I put my time in.  I learned through shadowing, and absorbing all I could through years and years. So how an I being hypocritical? Because I despise people like you that have shot for a year and come swooping in.  You have a job, your a structional engineer.  And I'm sure, a damn fine one.  But on weekends you want to come in and take my livelihood away.  Its what puts food on MY table.  you have young girls, how would you feel if after all the years you spent studying engineering someone just came into your company and took your job just because they bought a fancy calculator?


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## rehab

You all need to find more things to fill out your day lol


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## Robin Usagani

If you have shot forever, post some amazing pictures. Not just pics you took a few months ago. That's the part of you that I really don't understand and probably why you really rubbed me the wrong way. Since day one you joined this forum pretty much put it out there that you do this for a living and you have had years of experience. Yet all I see were shots you took recently. It just doesn't add up. Be more humble would help too.

Please tell me why there are so many successful photographers out there when you have Craigslist and groupon? And what you said about engineering and calculator, if you are THAT good.. then you will be the person who help design and produce that calculator. Yes, that's the way it is now. Engineers create software, codes getting more and more confusing, it gets harder and harder to do any calculations by hand. Engineers are hired to use this software. Without the education, you are going to operate the software wrong. And if you are not an engineer, you probably wont realize it when you get an answer that is not making any sense (wrong calculation). People evolve. Same thing with photographers. 




RockstarPhotography said:


> I offered 2 free shoots to bands on a musician forum here in denver to get my name out. I've been assisting and shooting since I can remember. I grew up with film, I have a darkroom, I put my time in. I learned through shadowing, and absorbing all I could through years and years. So how an I being hypocritical? Because I despise people like you that have shot for a year and come swooping in. You have a job, your a structional engineer. And I'm sure, a damn fine one. But on weekends you want to come in and take my livelihood away. Its what puts food on MY table. you have young girls, how would you feel if after all the years you spent studying engineering someone just came into your company and took your job just because they bought a fancy calculator?


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## RockstarPhotography

Why have I only been posting pictures from recently?  because up until recently I developed my own pictures in my darkroom.  I shot film.  I still would rather shoot film, but the new era has pretty much forced me to switch to digital. I'm not spending a ton of money to buy a scanner to scan in pictures.  I love prints, always have.  I love watching a print being developed, I love dodging and burning prints in the darkroom.  I still have probably 8 rolls of undeveloped film in the fridge.  THATS photography.  It's a new era and i'm trying to adapt.  But for you to come here saying "why don't you post your old stuff" when i sat in a darkroom for hours developing my "old stuff". not sitting behind a monitor rubs me the wrong way.


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## o hey tyler

What method of advertising do you use for your photography business?


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## RockstarPhotography

word of mouth.  My dad always told me it's the best advertising there is. although now that i moved i may need to pursue something more.


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## o hey tyler

Like what? Craigslist?


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## c.cloudwalker

bennielou said:


> I'm lost cloud.  Are you shooting in the white house press core now?  I'm so confused.  I need to catch up on the forums I think.


 
  No, it would be quite the commute from France. It was a reference to Annie Leibovitz's portrait of the Obama family which I find to be on about the same level as a Wally World shot...


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## imagemaker46

Must be the thin air in Colorado that makes these amateurs crazy, quite the battle royale going on, and it all started over $50. So Rockstar you were pleading poverty on one thread and making $60k on this one, lets try and get our stories straight here. If everyone is going to keep pumping themselves up at least try and tell the same stories consistantly. How are we to believe anything anyone on the internet says,  I'm pretty sure no one lies on Lavalife or EHarmony and they really do post current pictures, and when they say full figured it doesn't really mean 50lbs overweight. or thin hair means a bad comb over.

Just try and keep the stories close.


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## Forkie

RockstarPhotography said:


> You have a job, your a structional engineer.  And I'm sure, a damn fine one.  But on weekends you want to come in and take my livelihood away.  Its what puts food on MY table.  you have young girls, how would you feel if after all the years you spent studying engineering someone just came into your company and took your job just because they bought a fancy calculator?



I have a problem with so many photographers thinking that people should only have one type of job.  A weekend photographer is not taking your livelyhood away.  For quite a few years when I was about 18-20 years old, I worked as a publisher's assistant during the week and a barman at the weekend.  Does that mean I was taking away other barmen's livelyhood away?  Of course not.  People do what they have to do to make a living and, if they are so inclined, subsidise that living with extra work in the evenings or at weekends - whether that extra work is enjoying taking photos and charging for it, or cleaning public toilets for minimum wage is no one else's business.

Why do photographers always think _they_ are the only ones that should be allowed to charge for photos?  There is no photographer's club that you have to join in order to take photos for other people - and whether they want to charge for it and how much is entirely up to the individual.  

*PHOTOGRAPHERS: * STOP TRYING TO MAKE PHOTOGRAPHY OUT AS SUCH AN ELITIST "SUPER GROUP" - IT ISN'T.  GET OVER IT.


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## ghache

omg i loled !!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: Stop crying


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## ghache

Forkie said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have a job, your a structional engineer. And I'm sure, a damn fine one. But on weekends you want to come in and take my livelihood away. Its what puts food on MY table. you have young girls, how would you feel if after all the years you spent studying engineering someone just came into your company and took your job just because they bought a fancy calculator?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with so many photographers thinking that people should only have one type of job. A weekend photographer is not taking your livelyhood away. For quite a few years when I was about 18-20 years old, I worked as a publisher's assistant during the week and a barman at the weekend. Does that mean I was taking away other barmen's livelyhoods away? Of course not. People do what they have to do to make a living and, if they are so inclined, subsidise that living with extra work in the evenings or at weekends - whether that extra work is enjoying taking photos and charging for it, or cleaning public toilets for minimum wage is no One else's business.
> 
> Why do photographers always think _they_ are the only ones that should be allowed to charge for photos? There is no photographer's club that you have to join in order to take photos for other people - and whether they want to charge for it and how much is entirely up to the individual.
> 
> *PHOTOGRAPHERS: *STOP TRYING TO MAKE PHOTOGRAPHY OUT AS SUCH AN ELITIST "SUPER GROUP" - IT ISN'T. GET OVER IT.
Click to expand...

 
This is the problem people has right now. Everyone seems to think that you have to be specialized in something to be able to do it.

I can design, an implement a backbone network within an isp, i can build a shed a deck or even a house, i can fix and paint my car, i can do my taxes and all my buddys taxes and i have not yet heard the local accountant cry because i take away business from him.... i can build furniture, i can play music in a band if i want to and yes i can take decent photos. I have been though that way. 

Does that means that i should be specialized in being a carpenter, a Mechanic, an accountant, a musician and a PHOTOGRAPHER to be able to do it? not really. i do whatever the hell i want.
By learning in different field and get yourself at a point where you can do all that stuff for yourself you are not just saving tons of money, but you are also giving vent to your creative satisfaction.

Finally someone who understand.


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## Trever1t

Natural selection in a free trade economy. 

Competition either drives the quality standard up or puts you out of business. 

If you don't offer customers a better value why shouldn't they go to the competition?

Your making this a personal thing and you're blaming others for the loss of clientele. Knock it off, not only is it a childish attitude but you ARE NOT HELPING your situation in the process. Be more competitive, not necessarily with pricing but with quality. 

My daddy always told me, Quality over Quantity,


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## ghache

Trever1t said:


> Natural selection in a free trade economy.
> 
> Competition either drives the quality standard up or puts you out of business.
> 
> If you don't offer customers a better value why shouldn't they go to the competition?
> 
> Your making this a personal thing and you're blaming others for the loss of clientele. Knock it off, not only is it a childish attitude but you ARE NOT HELPING your situation in the process. Be more competitive, not necessarily with pricing but with quality.
> 
> My daddy always told me, Quality over Quantity,




Its a new trend from professionals to come online and wine about thier financial situation and blame the whole thing on someone else.


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## bennielou

While you make a good point Trevor, I don't know if it's that simple. This debate has been going on for a long time.

I know a lot of beginners who take some pretty awesome photos. But a lot of them are also students, or have a primary job other than photography. Add to that they most likely aren't paying state sales taxes and paying for mandatory liability insurance, permits, health insurance, or anything else many full time people need to do. They simply don't have the overhead that legit (I'll get hammered for that I know) photographers, who *are* paying all the taxes and permits, and liability.

They can simply afford to do things for less. If the quality is roughly the same, I can't blame people for going with someone who charges less. And that is where the problem is, IMO. It's not always a level playing field.

I'm not starving though, mostly due to client referrals. But the good old days of photography as a living are getting slimmer and harder. As I said, I've seen some of the best photogs I know go under in the last year. It wasn't the craigslist photographers who did it. It wasn't the cheap cameras. It wasn't that every soccer mom is now a photog. It's not because of weekend warriors. These guys were charging $5000 and up for a gig, so that craigslister didn't effect them. What did effect them was the midrange guys, a combination of all of the above, who weren't playing by the rules. (And some of the rules are actual federal laws that were being ignored).

If I quit paying my state and federal taxes on my work, and if I didn't buy the manditory liability insurance, and if I didn't pay for permits and soforth, right there I would save about $40 grand a year.

It's not so black and white.

And talking about it isn't "bitching".  It's hopefully what we can call civil debate.  By talking, we should all be able to understand where the other person is coming from.  And believe it or not, sometimes folks can whine while their computers are uploading a paying gig.


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## Trever1t

I can whole-heartedly understand and agree with you on this bennielou and maybe that's going to have to be part of the selling point, being licensed and insured. Contractors and many other professions face the same difficulties. Heck, even the economies of the world face unequel playing fields.


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## bennielou

Thanks Trevor,
I've definately made it part of my pitch, but honestly, most clients don't care if I pay my taxes or not. They just want good photos at a great price. Know what I mean? So that's the bummer part of it. :-(
And I'm not the kind of salesperson who tells potential clients who does and does not play by the rules, because that's so sour grapes to me, but I feel like it does effect the bottom line for a lot of us. I guess I'll just have to see how it all shakes out.


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## RockstarPhotography

imagemaker46 said:


> Must be the thin air in Colorado that makes these amateurs crazy, quite the battle royale going on, and it all started over $50. So Rockstar you were pleading poverty on one thread and making $60k on this one, lets try and get our stories straight here. If everyone is going to keep pumping themselves up at least try and tell the same stories consistantly. How are we to believe anything anyone on the internet says,  I'm pretty sure no one lies on Lavalife or EHarmony and they really do post current pictures, and when they say full figured it doesn't really mean 50lbs overweight. or thin hair means a bad comb over.
> 
> Just try and keep the stories close.


 
That is what I made LAST YEAR.  I don't work for pioneer anymore. Didn't think it was that difficult to understand.


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## Trever1t

In my industry, the USA has lost 70% of it's production to cheaper sources over-seas. These cheaper sources don't have OSHA, don't have federal, state and local regulatory costs. Their labor force is 1 cent on the dollar. We are competing and doing well, not by lowering price (although we try to compete) but by delivering a better product, more consistently. As the competition increases their quality level, and they do, we increase our capabilities to keep the work domestic. It's a tough battle, understood.


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## bennielou

I totally hear you Trever and that is another great point. Doesn't make it right, but it makes it real. 

And yes, keeping your quality and customer service high is the best defense in keeping your pricing up. 

But to use your analogy in the terms of photography, America is losing jobs all the time to overseas companies. So who get's burned? Americans. Who get's burned when photographers don't pay money they should rightfully pay? Other photographers who do. And I'm not trying to get into the whole Ayn Rand argument about unions and government intrusion, because photographers are not facing that. We don't have industry regulations, or mandatory certifications, or any of that. We are working with the most simple basics that we are supposed to do. Pay your taxes. Pay your permits. Carry the necessary insurance for the job you are intrusted to do. That's all. That's not so much to ask. 

I can promise you that the craigslist photographer, or for that fact, a bunch of other photographers aren't paying the state the $4.50 State Sales tax on that $50 job.  They aren't spending $800 on liability insurance.  I'd guess that they aren't even claiming that $50 bucks on their Federal tax return. Just an educated guess.

Anyhoo, off my soapbox!


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## imagemaker46

@bennielou, I have to  agree with you 100%. It's not even a matter of whining as we all get accused of doing, it's trying to explain to people what the situation is like, how the saturation of the photo market is changing things and that the lower cost of better gear has affected things for professionals.  It's not even the average photographers that are causing the concerns, it's the photo editors, the potential clients in suits that don't understand what it takes to produce quality in the camera and not in photoshop.  Average photos are  made to look amazing thanks to software and people see that, it's really smoke and mirrors.  I don't have a problem with anyone making money with a camera, what I do have a problem is them doing it for next to nothing because they can, it lowers the standard for everyone, including themselves.

It's just trying to explain to people that don't really understand unless they are in the business. If I don't understand how a business is being affected I'm willing to listen to the reasons why, but I'm not going to tell that person to stop whining and get over it, why would I, what purpose does that serve.


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## spacefuzz

Rockstar its simple buisiness, and you seem to have fallen in to that typical trap of thinking that photography isnt buisiness. wrong. Frankly from reading your posts you think that you are entitled to your cash because "you put in the time".  I really hate to break it to you but thats not how the buisiness world works.  You need to evolve, innovate, market yourself, out think your competition, advertise with more than word of mouth, have great samples to entice customers, be able to effectively weigh taking a job for cheap and correctly calculate your expected benefit from word of mouth advertising.  Embrace digital. 

As an engineer I see people who still draft using pencil and paper looking for jobs, they cant find any because thats not how the industry works anymore (its all 3D CAD).  You being stuck on film is similar situation. I am also a talanted engineer, and although my job could be outsourced / undercut at some time in the future I know that it wont be by someone whos only skill is running a fancy calculator.  But I guess thats the difference between art and tech.


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## bennielou

imagemaker46 said:


> @bennielou, I have to agree with you 100%. It's not even a matter of whining as we all get accused of doing, it's trying to explain to people what the situation is like, how the saturation of the photo market is changing things and that the lower cost of better gear has affected things for professionals. It's not even the average photographers that are causing the concerns, it's the photo editors, the potential clients in suits that don't understand what it takes to produce quality in the camera and not in photoshop. Average photos are made to look amazing thanks to software and people see that, it's really smoke and mirrors. I don't have a problem with anyone making money with a camera, what I do have a problem is them doing it for next to nothing because they can, it lowers the standard for everyone, including themselves.
> 
> It's just trying to explain to people that don't really understand unless they are in the business. If I don't understand how a business is being affected I'm willing to listen to the reasons why, but I'm not going to tell that person to stop whining and get over it, why would I, what purpose does that serve.


 
I don't think we *do *agree, Imagemaker46. 

As I stated, I *don't* think it's about the lower gear prices or the market saturation. I also think that people with an eye can take quality photos with consumer gear. What I am saying is that the trend is anyone with a camera, a client, and a website is now considered to be "in business".

More than 2/3rds of those "business" people, don't have a DBA, a tax structure such as sole proprietor, incorporation, or anything else. They don't pay state tax, and most likely don't pay federal tax on the photography income. They don't carry mandatory insurance, or set up workers comp for their employees.

THAT is what tips the balance in my experience. Not the camera. Not if they do it full time or not. Not if they use actions. Plenty of good photography comes from people with a camera, a client, and a website. But that is part of being in the "art" world. I'm sure plenty of portrait painters don't pay taxes either. 

I don't want or expect you to answer this question publically, Imagemaker but I want you to answer it honestly to yourself. I'd like a lot of photographers to answer this question to themselves: Do you have a DBA, and tax structure? Have you filed your State Income tax in the last quarter? Do you pay federal taxes on your photography income? Do you carry your mandatory liability bonds? Do you pay permit fees or cover your employees under workers comp? These are things I think people need to think more about.

And if you aren't doing all of the above, you really shouldn't call yourself a business person, whether you are full time, part time, student, weekend warrior, or a mom with camera.

JMO, but one I believe deeply in.


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## imagemaker46

I live in Canada and have been running my own freelance business for 35 years, I pay all my taxes and everything else that is required to be a registered business, I charge, collect and submit these taxes when due. It sounds like the tax structure in the US is far more complicated than it is in Canada.

I do agree that the majority of people with cameras that have created an " online business" by simply adding "photographer or photography" after their name and throwing up a website don't have a business licence, don't charge or collect taxes, don't send out invoices, probably accept a cash or personal cheque as the main payment method( don't have to record it for taxes) This type of camera owner is where the problem lies.  People don't ask if I have a registered business licence, they assume I do.  The rules and regulations that as professionals we must follow don't  apply to the amateurs that are running unregistered businesses, it's really that simple. It isn't fair but it is the big reality.


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## Aze

This is the price of technology, and any photographer who thinks they are the first "victims" of technology is clearly mistaken. Right now the music industry is in the same boat, it is becoming affordable to have a home studio and people are not going to the high budget studios as much as they used to, times change. Art has gone through these revolutions before. Photographers put painters out of business in an era past. How do you think the printing press affected scribes? Do you know how much a book cost before Gutenberg? This happens outside of art as well, when the automobile was invented the blacksmith suffered, less people needed horseshoes. 

Professional photography is not what it was just a few years ago, but photographers will have to look inward rather than outward. If you want to see what the evolution of your industry will look like in hyperdrive, look at the web. I've been a web developer/designer for a little over 10 years and I've seen more overhauls, reinventions of the industry than most industries do in 50 years, even 100. I've had to learn new ways to make my work stand out more than once. Why? Because 18 year olds who sat down at a computer were able to turn what I did into a commodity. I've had to evolve and adapt multiple times in order to stay employable these last 10 years. It is the reality of a world that changes must faster now. 

disclaimer: I am not a pro or even paid photographer, I can't even say I have a desire to get paid for pictures, only to use the skill to support my work in web design, which just happens to be another way I need to evolve in order to stay competitive as a web professional.


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## spacefuzz

bennielou said:


> I don't want or expect you to answer this question publically, Imagemaker but I want you to answer it honestly to yourself. I'd like a lot of photographers to answer this question to themselves: Do you have a DBA, and tax structure? Have you filed your State Income tax in the last quarter? Do you pay federal taxes on your photography income? Do you carry your mandatory liability bonds? Do you pay permit fees or cover your employees under workers comp? These are things I think people need to think more about.


 
If it makes you feel better I have an LLC where I wrap up all my taxes etc, and let the tax person deal with it all. I have no employees etc so its simpler.


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## bennielou

Of course it makes me feel better!  I love to see people like you who are doing things the right way.  If I lose a job to you, I know I lost it because you rock.  If I lose a job to someone who can do a job for a grand less because they don't pull their fair share.....then yes, I'm a bit bitter.

Anyhoo, while it's taking awhile, various states are now on to the fact of the website/camera/job deal and they have been hitting people hard.  That's not my business though.  Kharma is a wonderful thing.


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## Robin Usagani

I have an LLC with DBA.  My wife handles the tax stuff.  She yells at me if I dont have a receipt.  I dont have to worry about IRS auditing me though cause I spent way more than I make so far for softwares, website and camera equipment.  planning to turn that around hopefully this year and for sure next year.


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## spacefuzz

bennielou said:


> If I lose a job to you, I know I lost it because you rock.


 
I wouldnt go that far......  Obviously youve never seen my pictures


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## sierramister

Why don't you guys do what they here in my area of the woods and go on craigslist: find the names and addresses of photographers, and then report them all to the state and city.  I don't mind paying my state taxes and having a license then...


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## bennielou

I know it's a bit weird to spy on people, but there is a National State Sales Tax webiste that makes it really easy for me to find who is paying and who is not.  Don't worry because I'm not here to rat anyone out.  The reason being I think a lot of people are confused between Federal and State taxes.  Basically, if you are not paying taxes quarterly (or monthy in my case) you aren't paying state sales taxes.  I was confused at one point and was almost shut down.  I had a substantial business account that was wiped out due to penalties and interest.  I ordered albums for a while on a credit card to stay afloat.  The States are aware of the off the radar photographers, and they are offering bounties.  (The tattletale doesn't have to pay their quarter  as a reward.)  Federal taxes are not the same as State sales taxes and the government really doesn't care who is paying the bill or watching the fianances.  They just don't care if they put you out of business.

Federal taxes are the ones who ask about your gear and soforth.  State doesn't give a rat.  They just want to know how much money you made last year.  Do you see what I'm saying?


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## bennielou

People actually do that all the time.  They get a break on thier State Sales taxes for turning people in.  But, a lot of those people don't know any different, and I'd hate to see them lose thier bank account and house over it, ya know what I mean?


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## bennielou

Schwettylens said:


> I have an LLC with DBA. My wife handles the tax stuff. She yells at me if I dont have a receipt. I dont have to worry about IRS auditing me though cause I spent way more than I make so far for softwares, website and camera equipment. planning to turn that around hopefully this year and for sure next year.


 
But the question to you is: and don't say this here......are you paying STATE taxes on your photography income.  Do you pay every quarter or monthly?  You do NOT write off your equipment on State Sales Taxes.  And they don't care if your wife does the taxes, or your daughter, or your second cousin.  I've been through this.


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## bennielou

I got on my soapbox again!  Sorry!


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## Bitter Jeweler

Bennielou, I dont know how it is in your state, but in Ohio, if you are a business, and licensed, you have to file SALES TAX claims (I file every half) even if it is *zero*, and you can face penalties if you don't. Just thought I'd add that.


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## bennielou

Exactly BitterJewler. That's what I think a lot of people don't know, and that's where they get shut down or really finacially hurt. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of this business, but if don't do it like the supermarket does, or the jeweler does, you aren't doing the right thing.

Bitter, a lot of photogs dont got the business route. They just pop up a website and done. So no one knows about them until one of their competitors rat them out. Eventurally everyone is ratted out.

I mean I can pretty much do a quick search and tell you who is paying and who isn't.  Will I rat them out?  No.  But someone else will.  That's why I'm waiting for the tide to switch.


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## Robin Usagani

To be honest, the short answer is yes and no.  It is still all learning process for both of us.  My photography biz has just started  like a few months ago and we are learning as we go.  I am adding sales tax to my print if somoene order it from my zenfolio, but I havent added sales tax for my service.  But like I said, I just started and I have not made that much that would raise a red flag.  I will do it right though.



bennielou said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an LLC with DBA. My wife handles the tax stuff. She yells at me if I dont have a receipt. I dont have to worry about IRS auditing me though cause I spent way more than I make so far for softwares, website and camera equipment. planning to turn that around hopefully this year and for sure next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the question to you is: and don't say this here......are you paying STATE taxes on your photography income. Do you pay every quarter or monthly? You do NOT write off your equipment on State Sales Taxes. And they don't care if your wife does the taxes, or your daughter, or your second cousin. I've been through this.
Click to expand...


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## sierramister

I thought TX doesn't have an income tax.  In TN, you are allowed to sell a certain amount of services and product before you need to report it.
Besides, there are so many services being offered on craigslist, I doubt many states have the time and resources to go after these scofflaws.  There are painters, roofers, carpenters, mechanics, DJ's, caterers, and just about any other profession including photographers.  How many of them don't pay state taxes?  A lot of them.  However, craigslist continues to be flooded by people who don't care about taxes, insurance, etc.  I think you're overestimating just how much the state really cares about collecting $1000 or less.


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## Bitter Jeweler

Schwetty, to help you not raise a red flag, find out about your states sales tax, and if you have to file even for no taxable sales in a given period. It's not a big deal, and you probably can do it online, and it is really easy. Goods and services are taxable, so even a sitting fee, to my understanding is taxable. 

I am not telling you what you should do or when, just a warning, once you file sales tax, you will have to always file, even if it's zero.
Again, this is based on my state, and you should find out about yours. :thumbup:


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## imagemaker46

I pay my collected taxes or get them back depending on how business is and deductions for new gear etc, every 4 months.  Once registered you don't have the option of not paying.


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## bennielou

Schwetty, for your own protection, you should delete your post.  Your state is 2.8 where mine is 8.25 so things are good where you are.   Be safe.  Just delete the post.


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## bennielou

sierramister said:


> I thought TX doesn't have an income tax. In TN, you are allowed to sell a certain amount of services and product before you need to report it.
> Besides, there are so many services being offered on craigslist, I doubt many states have the time and resources to go after these scofflaws. There are painters, roofers, carpenters, mechanics, DJ's, caterers, and just about any other profession including photographers. How many of them don't pay state taxes? A lot of them. However, craigslist continues to be flooded by people who don't care about taxes, insurance, etc. I think you're overestimating just how much the state really cares about collecting $1000 or less.


 
This is why it is so confusing. Texas doesn't charge state taxes, but they do charge state sales taxes. Two different things entirely. Guess all you wonder Sierramister about how greedy the States can be, especially when they are facing a budget shortfall. They are plenty greedy. I wouldn't bet my house on it. And yes, that $1,000 job, with penalty and interest can become $3000. 

I'm not the tax police. I've already stated that I'm not. If you are willing to gamble your home, go for it. You might win.

Anyhoo, my original thought was about an unlevel playing field. Whether you pay your proper fees and taxes or not, perhaps you know where I'm coming from now.


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## sierramister

bennielou said:


> But the question to you is: and don't say this here......are you paying STATE taxes on your photography income.  Do you pay every quarter or monthly?  You do NOT write off your equipment on State Sales Taxes.  And they don't care if your wife does the taxes, or your daughter, or your second cousin.  I've been through this.



I was confused because this post seems to say that you've had state income tax problems from photography income, but we don't have income tax in TN (or TX I suppose), so we only have to worry about sales tax!


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## bennielou

There is where you are wrong, Sierra. You DO have State Sales Taxes in your state. Just as I do. If you sell a service, especially if you make it public , like on a website, you are responsible for a certain percentage of that sale. You aren't understanding the difference between Sales Tax that you pay at the grocery, and State Sales Tax that you are due as a vendor. Don't feel bad, it's a common mistake.

My state is 8.25 percent. Your state is lower than my state, but here is the Federal and State laws just so you know:

This from: Sales and Use Tax

*State sales and use tax* - *Sales tax is imposed on all retail sales*, leases and rentals of most goods, as well as taxable services
Tennessee cities and counties have the option of imposing an additional local option sales tax.
*Use Tax* - The use tax is the counterpart to the sales tax. It is applied when merchandise (tangible personal property) is purchased from outside the state of Tennessee and imported into the state for use or consumption. The 45 states that impose a sales tax also levy a use tax
Due Dates:
*Monthly* - 20th day of the month following the end of the reporting period 
*Quarterly* - 20th of the month following the end of the quarter
*Annually* - January 20
*Use Tax* - Depending upon the frequency of your purchases, you may file quarterly or annually
Tax Rates:
*State Tax* - The sales tax rate on food is 5.5%. *All other tangible personal proper*t*y*, *unless specifically exempted, is 7%.*
*State Single Article Rates* - 2.75% on any single item sold in excess of $1,600 but not more than $3,200 
*Use Tax* - same as the sales tax rate 
*Local Tax* - set by the local government - see local tax chart
Click here for mailing address and other contact information.

Hope this helps. It also looks like you have a single article tax which would apply to anything you sold in a certain price range of 2.75 percent, so you are actually paying, or should be paying, more in sales taxes than I am.


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## bennielou

imagemaker46 said:


> I pay my collected taxes or get them back depending on how business is and deductions for new gear etc, every 4 months. Once registered you don't have the option of not paying.


Again, you don't get to deduct gear in this. It is strictly based on sales. You also don't have the option to "pay or not". You are also confusing State and Federal. Don't feel bad. Most people do. I did.

And it's not each 4 months. It's every 3rd month on the 20th of the month. If you are late by a day, it can be a few hundred in penalties. People who are paying their state sales taxes know the date they pay them (always the twentieth), and they know not to miss that date. And they also know that you can't deduct gear. This is why I talk about this so much. Most people don't know. You might want to do the right thing, but the simple fact is, most good meaning people don't know. And then you also have the certain percentage of the population who are just crooks and don't care. 

Either way, I'm still playing on an uneven playing field, because I can tell by the responses I've seen, most people besides Bitter are not paying that huge tax that I am. Paying tax doesn't make me stupid. It makes me legit. And that is just one of the many things you are legally responsible for as a business owner.


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## KmH

RockstarPhotography said:


> So, I just lost a gig to a "craigslist photographer".  I was suppose to shoot a band for their upcoming album but got an email today saying they found a photographer on craigslist that would do it for 50 bucks.  I even dropped my price for this band.  I had locations scouted, ideas from the band, everything was set.  Now I lost it to a point and shoot with a dslr.  At least I know in the end, it will end up hurting them much more then it hurts me.


Dude. Everything *wasn't* set. You didn't have a signed contract.

You got the cart way out in front of the horse.
Scouting locations, getting ideas from the band, etc best happens after your contract is signed and your non-refundable retainer has been paid. Learn how to close a sale.

If you conduct your 'business' in an unprofessional manner, you will get unprofessional results because clients will know they can get away with it.

Edit:
Whoa! I didn't realize this thing was 7 pages long.


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## Robin Usagani

Bitter, lets say someone bought $900 worth of album from me in Colorado.  I cost me lets say $400 to make the album and the company is in California.  Which sales tax do I pay and what portion?


----------



## bentcountershaft

You charge whatever Colorado's state sales tax is.  Doesn't matter where it's made.  What matters is where it's sold.


Edit to add:

Apparently in Colorado you may or may not also charge a local (County or City) sales tax on top of that.  I just went for a quick look and saw that.  But whatever it is, you basically add the percentage on top of the sale price just like any other non-exempt good.


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## CCericola

Colorado. However, you would also pay California if it was shipped to an address in California.


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## bentcountershaft

CCericola said:


> Colorado. However, you would also pay California if it was shipped to an address in California.


 
If it was ordered and paid for from California and then shipped to California he wouldn't have to collect anything at all (If Colorado treats out of state sales the same as Indiana) and it would be up to the customer to pay the California tax.  If someone came in and paid for it in Colorado and wanted it shipped to California then he would collect Colorado's sales tax and nothing else.


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## thierry

errrr stupid craigslist!


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## bentcountershaft

Also, as far as the sales tax to you from California for the making of the album you shouldn't have to pay any sales tax to anyone.  You need to get a Sales Tax Exemption Certificate and you won't have to pay tax on anything you buy that is to be resold.  You also won't have to pay sales tax on any _consumable_ goods that are used in the manufacturing process of whatever it is you sell.  As an example:  If you were selling paintings you wouldn't pay tax on the paint or the canvas but you would on the easel and brushes.


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## RockstarPhotography

KmH said:


> RockstarPhotography said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, I just lost a gig to a "craigslist photographer".  I was suppose to shoot a band for their upcoming album but got an email today saying they found a photographer on craigslist that would do it for 50 bucks.  I even dropped my price for this band.  I had locations scouted, ideas from the band, everything was set.  Now I lost it to a point and shoot with a dslr.  At least I know in the end, it will end up hurting them much more then it hurts me.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude. Everything *wasn't* set. You didn't have a signed contract.
> 
> You got the cart way out in front of the horse.
> Scouting locations, getting ideas from the band, etc best happens after your contract is signed and your non-refundable retainer has been paid. Learn how to close a sale.
> 
> If you conduct your 'business' in an unprofessional manner, you will get unprofessional results because clients will know they can get away with it.
> 
> Edit:
> Whoa! I didn't realize this thing was 7 pages long.
Click to expand...


I agree.  Lesson learned.  We had only corresponded by email and telephone.


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## sierramister

No, I understand completely.  But paying on photography "income" isn't completely true.  Sales and use taxes are paid for services rendered to a client.  You don't pay based on income, you pay based on sales and services reported.  If I sell prints to an out of state customer, I am not required to collect sales tax.  So in TN, I might have made $1000 for an in-state wedding and sold $200 out of state prints, and I would pay 9.25% on $1000.  But in PA, for example, I would pay sales tax, and then pay income tax based on all reportable income.  In states that have a state income tax, you need to pay sales tax, and then pay any income that your business pays to you (presumably any profits).  





bennielou said:


> There is where you are wrong, Sierra. You DO have State Sales Taxes in your state. Just as I do. If you sell a service, especially if you make it public , like on a website, you are responsible for a certain percentage of that sale. You aren't understanding the difference between Sales Tax that you pay at the grocery, and State Sales Tax that you are due as a vendor. Don't feel bad, it's a common mistake.
> 
> My state is 8.25 percent. Your state is lower than my state, but here is the Federal and State laws just so you know:
> 
> This from: Sales and Use Tax
> 
> *State sales and use tax* - *Sales tax is imposed on all retail sales*, leases and rentals of most goods, as well as taxable services
> Tennessee cities and counties have the option of imposing an additional local option sales tax.
> *Use Tax* - The use tax is the counterpart to the sales tax. It is applied when merchandise (tangible personal property) is purchased from outside the state of Tennessee and imported into the state for use or consumption. The 45 states that impose a sales tax also levy a use tax
> Due Dates:
> *Monthly* - 20th day of the month following the end of the reporting period
> *Quarterly* - 20th of the month following the end of the quarter
> *Annually* - January 20
> *Use Tax* - Depending upon the frequency of your purchases, you may file quarterly or annually
> Tax Rates:
> *State Tax* - The sales tax rate on food is 5.5%. *All other tangible personal proper*t*y*, *unless specifically exempted, is 7%.*
> *State Single Article Rates* - 2.75% on any single item sold in excess of $1,600 but not more than $3,200
> *Use Tax* - same as the sales tax rate
> *Local Tax* - set by the local government - see local tax chart
> Click here for mailing address and other contact information.
> 
> Hope this helps. It also looks like you have a single article tax which would apply to anything you sold in a certain price range of 2.75 percent, so you are actually paying, or should be paying, more in sales taxes than I am.


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## bentcountershaft

sierramister said:


> No, I understand completely.  But paying on photography "income" isn't completely true.  Sales and use taxes are paid for services rendered to a client.  You don't pay based on income, you pay based on sales and services reported.  If I sell prints to an out of state customer, I am not required to collect sales tax.  So in TN, I might have made $1000 for an in-state wedding and sold $200 out of state prints, and I would pay 9.25% on $1000.  But in PA, for example, I would pay sales tax, and then pay income tax based on all reportable income.  In states that have a state income tax, you need to pay sales tax, and then pay any income that your business pays to you (presumably any profits).



That sounds correct.  It may be simpler if the distinction between sales tax _collected_ and state income tax _paid._  As a seller you (this is a general you, not to anyone specific) collect state sales tax as a percentage of the total cost of taxable items sold.  Assuming a regular in-state transaction, someone walks into your store, you sell them a widget that is priced at $100.  Your imaginary widget store is in a state with a 5% sales tax.  The customer pays you $105.00 and you send that $5.00 to the state.  You are reselling the widget you bought from somewhere else and your cost on it was $70 giving you a gross profit of $30.  To keep things simple, we will say your state has a 5% income tax.  Does that mean you pay 5% of the $30 profit ($1.50)?  No.  You pay income tax based on net profit, which accounts for all the other costs you incur in your business.

Lets say you sell 1000 of these widgets over the course of a quarter.  That's $30,000 gross profit.  From that you deduct all your expenses.  Payroll (even if you own the business you should give yourself a pay check, not live off of whatever is left over), rent, utilities, depreciation on equipment, travel expenses, unemployment insurance tax, workman's compensation insurance, liability insurance, employee benefits, organization dues, cleaning services, advertising expenses, accountant services, shipping costs and on and on.  Add all that up and we'll say it comes out to $20,000, leaving you with a net profit of $10,000 and a state income tax liability of $500 (or $0.50 per widget if you want to look at it that way.)

Now exchange widget for photographs.  

Not to confuse matters more, but if you charge $1000 to do a wedding, and they get whatever amount of pictures, then you collect state sales tax based on $1000 ($50 @ 5%).  If you charge $500 for the prints and $500 for labor then you collect state sales tax based on the prints only ($25 @ 5%) because labor isn't taxable.  In my state at least.  Check with your local laws.


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## kundalini

You know...... this thread was a lot more fun with the trash talk.  The discussion of paying taxes, especially this time of year and quite important BTW, is a bit depressing.

Carry on.


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## ghache

kundalini said:


> You know...... this thread was a lot more fun with the trash talk. The discussion of paying taxes, especially this time of year and quite important BTW, is a bit depressing.
> 
> Carry on.


 
hahah, they got me pretty bad this year. good thing i am making side moooneyyzzz .


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## bennielou

It's REALLY depressing....lol. Sorry about that! I've got my quartery and my yearly due at the same time pretty much, and I feel like jumping out a damn window. 
I'm actually hoping the government shuts down for a while so they take a while to cash the checks. I've got the money in the accounts, but they look alot better with more zeros. Haha.


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## vtf

And we wonder why a good accountant is necessary.


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## imagemaker46

Seems to me that the US tax system is far more complicated than the Canadian system.  My wife does my business taxes in about an hour using tax software, as well as all the other monthly business taxes.


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## ghache

I use U file to fill up my taxes, A 14 year old kid could do it.


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## spacefuzz

So if they shut down the government and the country descends into anarchy do I have to still pay my taxes?  I was in DC for the last govt shut down, this does not fill me with confidence.  

Or better question, do I have to pay taxes on anything sold while the govt is shut down?


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## imagemaker46

No, it's like a snow day.


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## vitor

Two ways avoid the incident:
 - Ask for a deposit.  Once they pay the deposit up front they are committed;
 - Put your own ad on craigslist.  Hopefully next time you will steal their clients.


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## Pixz

I can't lie - when I first started out I looked at Craigslist as a great way to get my profile together and a no cost way of advertising. I did a lot of business through there but have expanded to only using my website and word of mouth as time went on. I still post on craigslist every now and again when I will be in certain areas to allow people with limited budgets to get their modeling portfolio work done. But to also play devils advocate on this one, if the band found one on craigslist - obviously they were shopping more for price than quality.


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## gsgary

RockstarPhotography said:


> It comes to the point sometimes where I wonder how much of my "extra" expense in shooting is worth it.  Things like insurance.  Of course my gear is insured, but I'm also insured if ANYTHING goes wrong.  I'm even covered if i tell them to take a step back, they fall and break their arm, i'm insured for it.  Its added expense that I, of course, have to keep into consideration.  Along with all the taxes and paperwork involved in running a LEGITIMATE business.  But even if I drop all of that (i wouldn't) trying to compete with someone charging 50 bucks is impossible when you have to pay rent, bills, diapers, and food.


 

Well shoot stuff that pays, bands don't want to pay


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## AverageJoe

You need photos taken of you?


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## dnavarrojr

gsgary said:


> Well shoot stuff that pays, bands don't want to pay



^^ Quote of the week ^^

If you're chasing bands then you're chasing your tail, unless you are hired by a record company.  If it's money you're after, you need to go where the money is.


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## o hey tyler

AverageJoe said:


> You need photos taken of you?


 
Do you think they'll travel to Maine? I must learn from them.


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## Xyloz

Problems with bands are alot of them are living on a shoe string, some just starting out can't afford practice rooms let alone photography but want it all, you need to lay down the law on prices and spend as little time as possible on edit. At the end of the day the client gets what he pays for. If it's not much money then they get bugger all time quick in and out and batch process on the side, No fancy business charge per shoot based on output. 

Set a minimum fee of what ever you set per photo released to them ($15) because they get the choice of photo, you will upload batch / heavily watermarked images of the shoot for viewing online and choice of purchase for a set time maybe a month to 3 months and that will be the availability time to purchase. And that rights to all unwatermarked versions are strictly on purchase only.

So if they do want to publish the watermarked ones they can and you get free advertising. 

That way if they want more out of your shoot they will start bleeding out more money for unwatermarked photos and eventually pay you a decent amount for the shoot.
And if they don't they lose out!

You will find that they will pick out about 5-10 images in total that they would want to keep, each member and a group shot usually tallies up to this. but at $15 bucks each you can be safe with $120 for a quick shoot. 

Setting a minimum fee may help with stingy bands, it helped round my area. Because once you have good photos, bands do want to buy them once they see them and making a time limit on the purchase of about a month allows them to get the funds they need. and adds a bit of pressure as to wanting to get them through risk of deletion. And the important part of the deal is to be firm don't budge from your prices you can offer a set of 10 for a discount but again they have to foot the money and then you have them over a barrel.


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## KmH

There are a ton more families that want photos, than there are bands that want photos. Like hundreds to 1.

There are a ton more families that can afford to pay for photos, than there are bands that can afford to pay for photos. Like hundreds to 1.


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## j-dogg

You get what you pay for.

I hate CL for a different reason, trying to sell gear. Buyers who sell **** out from under me when I drive halfway across the state to pick up something, and I call and say I'm almost there, then I get there and it's gone.

People who want good quality work don't look on Craigslist, they look for legitimate businesses who are insured and licensed.


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## zamanakhan

I post on kijiji here in canada and have found a few jobs through them and through word of mouth, i gotta say every one i work with always tells me that i did a GREAT job for a much lower price then their previous PROFESSIONAL photographer that have their own sites and studios, again i have also looked at the pictures they do for these clients and they look like like something any idiot can do with an slr and a extra flash or similar to what mine will look like and charge 4x as much. Even the passport pictures here are taken on a d40with the kit 18-55 lens and give you the dark circles under the eyes, and charge you $20 for a very quick shot and print. To be honest i do this only part time just something to cover partial costs of my hobby. My prices ARE significantly lower than the pro photographers here but again i dont think i should charge as much because i do not have the same experience and the age. I also really dont care if iam taking business away from someone else its the nature of ANY business there is always going to be competition.

actually i do have a flikr account but never really thought of sharing it, its mostly for personal use, has snapshots of a few vacations... I guess i could make a portfolio up there


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## Bitter Jeweler

Do you have a website or Flickr?


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## zamanakhan

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Do you have a website or Flickr?


 
no nothing, depending on what iam shooting i'll take a few pictures of something similar and show them if they are happy then i proceed. I also dont charge if the client is NOT happy, again i treat it more like a hobby than a career, i have a day job iam happy with and this helps me meet tons of new people and they refer me to their friends. I've been making decent amounts of money just based on word of mouth really.


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## laffles

a both funny and interesting thread, Whenever I see the Justin Beiber with 50 cent's photo-shopped in I just lol


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## GAP Photo

I have my own clients and yes, I do browse Craigslist for occasional opportunities.  For those of us still struggling to climb into a regular, quality cliental that will pay us because we are professionals, we still have to find work that will pay.   Remember, you are only as good as the last product you produce. If you don't produce new product, you become insignificant to new prospective clients in a very competetive environment.  Craigslist is one of many sources that I fish to gain occasional work outside of my usual market.  I assure you however, I charge far more than $50...use contracts and retain former clients from that source.


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## kylehess10

I never look at losing a shoot to a CL photographer as something to be mad at; I like to look at it in a funny way. Why? Because they'll learn how far $50 will take them with a photographer. It could be someone who just got their first SLR & still using a kit lens. Just let them learn. Money goes far in photography and most people don't understand that. That's why they need to lose $50 and get crappy pictures so they can simply learn.


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## FattyMcJ

Here's another one in CO...

Studio M Photography Deal-of-the-Week at WeeklyPlus.com

$29 for a "Senior Portrait Session"  

Granted, it's only a 45 minute time slot, but I'm not sure how I feel about: " Includes three digital images via Facebook to share with family and friends"

If the clients are "tagged" on the fan page of the business, and they acquire the photos that way...then sure, not a bad way to advertise on FB.

But $29 for (say) 15 minutes of travel time + 45 minutes to setup and shoot + editing time + sending the photo to the school + editing the rest of the gallery in the HOPES that they buy more = I'd guess about $8 per hour.  Before taxes.  

I'm all about CL for advertising, or doing the occasional model portfolio / personal project for your own portfolio...but $29 is just too low for even me to compete with.

I'll give them credit though, the work isn't terrible by any means.  They could/should charge more IMO.  Thoughts?


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## Robin Usagani

I think it is a smart marketing.  They probably only post low resolution with signature at the bottom. Also HS kids love Facebook.  People will certainly tag everyone.  They are trying to upselll.  They don't promise high res files on a cd.  They will buy prints I am sure.


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## FattyMcJ

Schwettylens said:


> I think it is a smart marketing.  They probably only post low resolution with signature at the bottom. Also HS kids love Facebook.  People will certainly tag everyone.  They are trying to upselll.  They don't promise high res files on a cd.  They will buy prints I am sure.



I dunno...

" Includes one high-resolution image on a CD so you can make your own prints, or a $29 credit toward  Studio M&#8217;s online photo print and digital CD image orders"

Yeah, the more I think about it, the upsale potential is there and if it doesn't work out, I guess it's maybe 4 hours wasted per client.  I waste that much time watching TV lol

I was tired last night and didn't fully think it through, ignore my blind rage lol


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## g-fi

FattyMcJ said:


> Here's another one in CO...
> 
> Studio M Photography Deal-of-the-Week at WeeklyPlus.com
> 
> $29 for a "Senior Portrait Session"
> 
> Granted, it's only a 45 minute time slot, but I'm not sure how I feel about: " Includes three digital images via Facebook to share with family and friends"
> 
> If the clients are "tagged" on the fan page of the business, and they acquire the photos that way...then sure, not a bad way to advertise on FB.
> 
> But $29 for (say) 15 minutes of travel time + 45 minutes to setup and shoot + editing time + sending the photo to the school + editing the rest of the gallery in the HOPES that they buy more = I'd guess about $8 per hour.  Before taxes.
> 
> I'm all about CL for advertising, or doing the occasional model portfolio / personal project for your own portfolio...but $29 is just too low for even me to compete with.
> 
> I'll give them credit though, the work isn't terrible by any means.  They could/should charge more IMO.  Thoughts?




Looking at that page, they've already got 33 buy-ins, at 29$/pop that's almost $1000 without any potential print sales added in. I think Senior pictures are one of those areas where it's super easy to up-sell and make a significant return if your prints are priced right. $29 sounds painfully low, but if a parent makes a $100-$200 print order on half of those sessions, there's not much loss at all from the photographers non-discounted session price. I think it's a roll of the dice, I don't know that I would be comfortable selling that much time at that low of a price, but if the circumstances were right (several shoots booked on the same weekend/day) it could definitely work in one's favor.


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## Paul D. Van Hoy II

There's little money to be made in shooting bands since most are unsigned and living on cigarettes and red bulls.

If you lose a potential client to someone who goes with the lowest bidder - in this case $50.00 - trust me, the BIG one didn't get away...

Craigslist photographers are like those sucker-fish that clean the bottoms of aquariums - let them have their crumbs, those gigs are more headache than they're worth.

Toronto Wedding Photographer


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## AnthonyRyanPhoto

I saw a guy on Groupon San Diego yesterday actually sell 160 59$ packages just like this, only he included an 8X10.  I was trying to do the math to see how long it would take to get through all of those, and I figured if you did three shoots a day, it would take somewhere around 90 days to get through them all + editing time.  But say 6 months later, you will have a good client base just from that one ad.


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## wingedrunner

WHy didnt you lock it in with a contract?


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## Mully

Sometimes when you think you have lost you have actually won.  You can not compete with a CL photographer sooooo why bother.... find better clients....leave the dregs to the bottom feeders.


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## Bitter Jeweler

I miss RockStar!


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## KmH

This thread died 2 years ago.

Who are you trying to talk to wingedrunner?


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## andywag

I love 'em.

I seem to spend more time re-shooting where some "craigslist photographer" has screwed up than other stuff these days.

I can hardly count the times I have had a panic call from someone saying "can you do a rush job on x or y". When I ask why it is so rush the answer is often along the lines of "we got a mate of a mate to do the shoot but they have screwed it up because they didn't have the right equipment/skill/experience/contacts etc."

Great for me as I then say yeah but as a rush job it will cost you double.

I love the GWC brigade.




Whoops - just looked at the date on the OP !!!!!!!
sorry.


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## sm4him

Well, since this old thread has been dredged up anyway...yesterday, I saw one (not even posted in the right place on CL) where she took unlimited photos for up to an hour for, I think, $50 and then gave you the CARD with the pictures on it (therefore, NO post-processing and certainly not shooting raw) and full rights to the photos.  Seems like, even if you are actually a decent photographer, it would be hard to ever build a portfolio if you give away the original files and rights to the photos you take. :er:

But then this morning, I found two awesome ads--one simply said "I'm a very good amateur photographer seeking ladies that would enjoy  posing for a photoshoot. It can be anyplace you desire, outside, inside  or any type photos you desire."
That's a GREAT idea!! Every young beautiful woman should be all over that--contacting some complete stranger on the internet to pose for a photoshoot! Oh, and he'll do it FOR FREE. 

The other...well, you just have to look.  It's here. Now, who wouldn't want that awesome photo hanging on their wall?!? :lmao:


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## ghache

sm4him said:


> Well, since this old thread has been dredged up anyway...yesterday, I saw one (not even posted in the right place on CL) where she took unlimited photos for up to an hour for, I think, $50 and then gave you the CARD with the pictures on it (therefore, NO post-processing and certainly not shooting raw) and full rights to the photos.  Seems like, even if you are actually a decent photographer, it would be hard to ever build a portfolio if you give away the original files and rights to the photos you take. :er:
> 
> But then this morning, I found two awesome ads--one simply said "I'm a very good amateur photographer seeking ladies that would enjoy  posing for a photoshoot. It can be anyplace you desire, outside, inside  or any type photos you desire."
> That's a GREAT idea!! Every young beautiful woman should be all over that--contacting some complete stranger on the internet to pose for a photoshoot! Oh, and he'll do it FOR FREE.
> 
> The other...well, you just have to look.  It's here. Now, who wouldn't want that awesome photo hanging on their wall?!? :lmao:






hahahha i puked. a crystal ball? on facebook, ive seen one in a coffee mug of some sort and everyone was stroking about it. jesus christ.


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## KmH

Great pricing!



> Prices start at $50.00! These sessions last up to an hour and include a CD containing a minimum 15 edited photographs with a printing release.



$3.33 *or less* per photo. Cheaper than the Walmart studio.


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## amolitor

As we know, you should never go with some craigslist person. You should stick to people who have professional looking web sites with a bunch of superb photos on them. Because you can't just buy a domain name, some cheap hosting, and throw together a bunch of stolen pictures in a template in an afternoon.

Oh, oops, wait.


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## Steve5D

I don't know why people are so surprised when a band goes for the low bid.

Bands don't have a lot of money. Period. They just don't. They don't have advertising budgets and travel budgets and the like. If they're _lucky_, they have a "band fund". _Everything _they have to spend money on comes out of that. If you quoted them, say, $250.00, and someone else quoted them $50.00, you lose the gig; simple as that. It has nothing to do with photogeapher skill or vision or anything else, other than money. That's the one thing the band cares about, because it's the one thing they have very little of. They're not "dregs", they just don't have a lot of surplus cash.

Similarly, I'm surprised when people act surprised when they lose a gig to Craig's List. First, the assumption that someone advertising on Craig's List is silly. I've seen some damn good photos taken by people who advertised on Craig's List. Additionally, I think the majority of people on Craig's List don't concern themselves with running a "legitimate" business. They're looking to make a few bucks on the side. That's it. 

Move on. For what it's worth, this is hardly a unique story...


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## 12sndsgood

sm4him said:


> Well, since this old thread has been dredged up anyway...yesterday, I saw one (not even posted in the right place on CL) where she took unlimited photos for up to an hour for, I think, $50 and then gave you the CARD with the pictures on it (therefore, NO post-processing and certainly not shooting raw) and full rights to the photos.  Seems like, even if you are actually a decent photographer, it would be hard to ever build a portfolio if you give away the original files and rights to the photos you take. :er:
> 
> But then this morning, I found two awesome ads--one simply said "I'm a very good amateur photographer seeking ladies that would enjoy  posing for a photoshoot. It can be anyplace you desire, outside, inside  or any type photos you desire."
> That's a GREAT idea!! Every young beautiful woman should be all over that--contacting some complete stranger on the internet to pose for a photoshoot! Oh, and he'll do it FOR FREE.
> 
> The other...well, you just have to look.  It's here. Now, who wouldn't want that awesome photo hanging on their wall?!? :lmao:




I go there for a chuckle and to see the ads some people make.    I see ads all the time saying things like  "looking for beatiful women to photograph for my portfolio this is a professional photoshoot becaue i will be using lights. i'm very attractive so no worries there"    I kid you not this is the type of ad on there.


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## CA_

I'm in a band, and we're somewhat known, and we have a brand to preserve. More times than not, when it comes to photography, branding, etc, we go for the better artist. So, not all bands just go to the lowest bidder. Many do, and many are meaningless garage bands with zero fan base. But, the ones who care and take their craft as seriously as the photographer takes his, usually like-minds will seek each other out.

Shamless plug: http://facebook.com/StockholmBand


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