# Anyone With A Digital Camera And Facebook Is A Pro



## smoke665 (Oct 2, 2017)

It used to be that Craig's List was littered with the wannabe pros, now it seems they are showing up more on FB. I understand everyone needs to start somewhere, but the quality of the images is sadly lacking, confirming the axiom "you get what you pay/don't pay for". Don't get me wrong I don't consider myself good enough to charge anyone, but I have learned the basics of a good exposure. I've had friends, family and acquaintances (who know photography is my hobby) ask me what I thought of their engagement/wedding/baby/family....etc photos that they paid their hard earned cash for. It really puts me in a moral dilemma as to what to tell them. Do I lie and tell the truth, or bite my tongue knowing and "say oh those are great" ? So far I just mumble something like "those were good", and changed the subject, justifying it with the fact that my opinion was after the fact anyhow.  How do others handle this touchy subject?


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## KmH (Oct 2, 2017)

I don't lie.
But, I temper my comments and explain why the photos are less than professional grade images.
Many gauge the quality of an image by the degree of emotional attachment they have to the subject.


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## Braineack (Oct 2, 2017)

I'm shooting a wedding this Friday.

I've been spending countless hours prepping and worrying.  I've purchased new equipment -- flash brackets, accessories, memory cards.  I rented a second camera. And made sure I have redundancy for everything, and a backup plan. I've scouted the location (and made notes about the sun location).  I took my assistant to the location and went over all my equipment and needs from her.  I've been in constant contact with the bride to make sure I capture this right for them. I have a pretty good game plan of how I'm going to shoot the events as the day progresses -- there's so much you need to be able to shoot: details, rings, prep, portraits, ceremony, reception. Each presents all sorts of challenges and techniques.  How are you going to light each, where will you take shots, how will you pose people, what images MUST you capture, etc etc.

I've been shooting for 23 years -- maybe the last 5 more seriously.  I've been waiting to increase my skill and equipment level is to a point were I felt "morally responsible" to take paid work.  I'm incredibly nervous and still with everything above don't think I'm ready.

So I have a bit of disdain for people who buy a $200 camera, then start charging for really crummy work.


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## zombiesniper (Oct 2, 2017)

Fully agree with above.

I have everything I need to provide quality portraits to a client except the experience.
So my solution is to practice, provide free images to family and friends until I think I am at a point where I can guarantee that when someone comes into the studio that I will provide them with my best work. Work that will surpass their expectations.

I couldn't in good conscience charge before that.


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## waday (Oct 2, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> Do I lie and tell the truth, or bite my tongue knowing and "say oh those are great" ? So far I just mumble something like "those were good", and changed the subject, justifying it with the fact that my opinion was after the fact anyhow. How do others handle this touchy subject?


Depends on who you're talking to and whether they'll be receptive or not. And whether they're asking you to JUDGE their photos, or to simply take part in their happiness.

I'd probably just say something like:

"That was such a happy day; you looked beautiful/handsome. You two must be so happy [to start your life together/bring a new human into this world/etc]. I'm sure you'll cherish these moments for the rest of your life."


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## smoke665 (Oct 2, 2017)

I couldn't agree more with everything said. Even though I have no intention of doing paid work,  I can empathize with those who want to. Not only do I feel bad about lying, but I feel like it perpetuates the continuation of shoddy work.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 2, 2017)

I do similar to Waday.  I say something like "Oh how cute" if it's a child's portrait.  Or "You guys look so happy!" if it's a wedding photo etc.  I avoid commenting on the quality of the work unless it is great.


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## limr (Oct 2, 2017)

Unless I am specifically asked about the quality of the pictures, I don't bother commenting on anything other than the content of the photo. And if I _am_ asked specifically about the quality? Well, theoretically, if I didn't like the photo, I can always hide behind excuses: "Well, it's not really the style I would shoot, but it looks like this person did fine" or "I'm not a portrait photographer, so I am not really qualified to judge." 

ETA: I say "theoretically" because outside TPF, I have literally _never _been asked what I thought of wedding or portrait pictures, and have only occasionally been asked about my thoughts on a landscape or cell phone snap.


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## smoke665 (Oct 2, 2017)

@limr and @SquarePeg one of my favorite lines from Ron White - "I had the right to remain silent but I didn't have the ability", pretty much sums me up. 

I had it come up recently from a friend who runs a wedding venue, that asked me to comment on wedding photographs at a recent event. The photo was terrible, not a good composition, and the groom had horrible blown highlights on the face. Kind of hurt her feelings because I think she might have recommended the photographer.


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## Braineack (Oct 2, 2017)

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive with quality...


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 2, 2017)

Smoke, I clicked on 'funny' while reading, so the first part of your last post was what was funny... not necessarily the rest. I suppose it depends on the person and situation, I haven't been shown wedding photos and asked (thankfully!). Probably wouldn't give a critique but something like 'it's more processed than my tastes' or whatever. I think the person asking might know the photos aren't the greatest or are unsure about it if they're asking. 

It's different too if its someone's pictures of their family, kids, etc. If the person asking owns a venue, then maybe she's wondering if she should have recommended that photographer. Guess it's better that she finds out even if it may not be what she hoped to hear.

From what I've heard, not only are the 'people with cameras' on craigslist and Facebook, but now on Instagram too. Not just that, people are on there selling stuff.


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## CherylL (Oct 2, 2017)

waday said:


> "That was such a happy day; you looked beautiful/handsome. You two must be so happy [to start your life together/bring a new human into this world/etc]. I'm sure you'll cherish these moments for the rest of your life."



Good answer!  No use raining on someone's parade after the event.  I've been asked my hobbyist opinion and I usually say looks like a great time or very memorable capture.

Just yesterday on the local town's FB page someone asked for senior portrait photographers.  Many were listed in the replies.  I had no idea our small town had so many.  Most were $45 to $100 with 3 changes, edits, digital files, etc.  

Five years ago when I first got a T4i an old friend asked me to shoot her son's wedding for free.  I declined and referred her to a few local pro photographers.  She went with a friend of a friend and I did not get a wedding invitation.  

I think some can not afford a quality photographer and some do not value quality photos.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 2, 2017)

CherylL said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > "That was such a happy day; you looked beautiful/handsome. You two must be so happy [to start your life together/bring a new human into this world/etc]. I'm sure you'll cherish these moments for the rest of your life."
> ...



Saw a similar thread on Facebook about senior portraits and checked out a few of the links of the more popular ones.  Mostly not horrible is the best I can say for the majority.  A few talented photographers in the mix.  All were priced on the mark if you go with the you get what you pay for rule.  As for weddings, I've never understood why someone would pay big bucks for some floral arrangements that will be dead and gone the next day or overspend on a super fancy cake that will be quickly cut up only to skimp out on the photos which will be there when memories of the day start to fade.  The photos; the food; the entertainment; the venue...then everything else!


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## Frank F. (Oct 2, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> It used to be that Craig's List was littered with the wannabe pros, now it seems they are showing up more on FB. I understand everyone needs to start somewhere, but the quality of the images is sadly lacking, confirming the axiom "you get what you pay/don't pay for". Don't get me wrong I don't consider myself good enough to charge anyone, but I have learned the basics of a good exposure. I've had friends, family and acquaintances (who know photography is my hobby) ask me what I thought of their engagement/wedding/baby/family....etc photos that they paid their hard earned cash for. It really puts me in a moral dilemma as to what to tell them. Do I lie and tell the truth, or bite my tongue knowing and "say oh those are great" ? So far I just mumble something like "those were good", and changed the subject, justifying it with the fact that my opinion was after the fact anyhow.  How do others handle this touchy subject?



They do not ask me anymore.

I know enough to know how much there is to know and so after one million photos and 34 I can say:

Photo Businesses is 90% Business and 10% photo ... Possibly even 99/1.

So.

If people don't know how a good shot looks like they hire any good salesman who tells them a believable story.....


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## The Barbarian (Oct 10, 2017)

I have resisted taking money for pictures.    I don't want the pressure or the hassle.

For years, my kids played in a very competitive soccer league, and often at tournaments, someone would be doing business out of the back of a van, or in a tent.

Parents told me that mine were better.   And I think they were.   

But I'm thinking some of it was knowing the players, and being able to anticipate the critical moment.     And I probably spent way too much time in PP, making them just right.


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## Designer (Oct 10, 2017)

Frank F. said:


> They do not ask me anymore.


I've never been asked my opinion, even in the areas in which I actually know something.  

I mean specifically me, not an open invitation to everyone here on TPF.  

Apparently I am not perceived as one who knows something.


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## Gary A. (Oct 10, 2017)

I tend to qualify my remarks with ... as a former pro, I judge photo using a professional baseline ... then I say my piece, but I always try to say at least one positive comment. Usually the photog/person-with-camera starts to qualify the image, but it was dark, I only had one lens, it was a point and shoot, et al.


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## CherylL (Oct 10, 2017)

A friend's daughter is getting married next year.  The bride and groom are thinking about their photo options and are considering buying a "nice" camera for one of the groomsman and other guests to capture their big day.  They figure why pay for a photographer and they will have a "nice" camera after the wedding.  Of course my friend is trying to talk them into hiring a pro.   I wonder if this is a new trend?  Many years ago it was the disposable cameras on tables at the reception.


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## smoke665 (Oct 10, 2017)

CherylL said:


> re considering buying a "nice" camera for one of the groomsman and other guests to capture their big day.



I wouldn't turn my camera over to anyone!!! That's just asking for trouble.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 10, 2017)

People pay me to take photos.  I get asked all the time about what I think about this and that photos.  Like someone said, there's no need to rain on someone's parade.  You'll come across as bitter even if the photos are bad.  I tell them that all photographers are different and the important thing is that they like the photos.  I don't critique or post my opinion because it's professional courtesy.  I like to say that we all shoot differently and I have my way of doing things.  It's not that I'm better or worse, I'm just different.


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## nerwin (Oct 11, 2017)

Facebook photographers are typically a 16 year old girl who got a DSLR for their birthday and instantly think they are a professional photographers and therefore creates a fan page and makes up a silly business name and shares every single photo, doesn't matter if it's blurry, out of focus or what not. Because it was taken with a DSLR, it's professional artistic quality.

Okay...I guess it bothers me too.

My cousin hired someone like that to shoot their wedding. Their images were processed using free malware infested editing software, half were selective color and mostly consisted of poor composition. I brought my D610 + 50mm with me because why not and they ended up using my photos and I'm not a wedding photographer.


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## zombiesniper (Oct 11, 2017)

I see it as any market.

If you are a good photographer, ensure you are priced high enough that you only attract the clientele that appreciate the value in what you do.
Let those that are going to haggle every penny go to the InstaFaceChat photographers and be happy you don't have such pain in the ass clients.

There's room for everyone. Stop fighting for space with the bottom feeders and you'll be much happier.


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## smoke665 (Oct 11, 2017)

@nerwin In our area I see them going up into middle age.

@zombiesniper In my case It's irrelevant as photography is and will, remain a hobby.  I do feel sorry for the misguided individuals that pay for poor quality photos, but even then, like everything else, it's "buyer beware".


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## nerwin (Oct 11, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> @nerwin In our area I see them going up into middle age.



Well I live in Vermont, it's full of hipsters.


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## runnah (Oct 11, 2017)

Much like the plains of the Serengeti, the natural order of things will sort themselves out. Weaker photographer with be mauled and eaten by the stronger.


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## smoke665 (Oct 11, 2017)

runnah said:


> Much like the plains of the Serengeti, the natural order of things will sort themselves out. Weaker photographer with be mauled and eaten by the stronger.



True, but unfortunately it seems there are 3 more that pop up for every one that gets eaten. 

I've seen another disturbing trend. Customer A sees "Unknown Photographer" on FB, and hires them for shoot. Customer A has no knowledge of good or bad, receives prints, and they're better than customer's cell phone, so they post glowing report on "UP", on FB. Customer B see's this and the cycle continues. Eventually the "UP" is getting glowing reports, because even if the customer knows the photos are bad they're afraid to admit they've been had, and will post recommendations simply because everybody else "says" they're good.


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## nerwin (Oct 11, 2017)

It's a very similar thing when trying to sell prints. People want them for cheap or FREE. 

I hate it when I get contacted from someone who is interested in a print and I tell them the cost and they either don't respond or they respond in a negative manner. "Why does it have to be so expensive? All you did is press a button". 

Yep, that's all I did is press button. Then why don't you do it?


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## runnah (Oct 11, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Much like the plains of the Serengeti, the natural order of things will sort themselves out. Weaker photographer with be mauled and eaten by the stronger.
> ...



True but along with being a quality photographer you also want quality customers. Chances are the folks who are sourcing these facebook pros are the ones who want everything for dirt cheap and will complain about what they get anyways.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 11, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> True, but unfortunately it seems there are 3 more that pop up for every one that gets eaten.
> 
> I've seen another disturbing trend. Customer A sees "Unknown Photographer" on FB, and hires them for shoot. Customer A has no knowledge of good or bad, receives prints, and they're better than customer's cell phone, so they post glowing report on "UP", on FB. Customer B see's this and the cycle continues. Eventually the "UP" is getting glowing reports, because even if the customer knows the photos are bad they're afraid to admit they've been had, and will post recommendations simply because everybody else "says" they're good.



This is rampant, I agree.  All of the crappy cell phone photos have made the crappy dslr photos look better than they really are. As have the filters and trends toward either overly contrasty or overexposed “styles”.  

But, on the other hand, from the consumer’s perspective, if they can’t tell the difference between a good photo and a poorly lit or overexposed or soft photo, then why should they pay more for something they don’t care about.  If the super expensive perfume smells the same to you as the drug store bottle, would you pay more?


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## Gary A. (Oct 11, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> People pay me to take photos.  I get asked all the time about what I think about this and that photos.  Like someone said, there's no need to rain on someone's parade.  You'll come across as bitter even if the photos are bad.  I tell them that all photographers are different and the important thing is that they like the photos.  I don't critique or post my opinion because it's professional courtesy.  I like to say that we all shoot differently and I have my way of doing things.  It's not that I'm better or worse, I'm just different.


You are too kind. But ... you are also saving yourself from an argument and people saying you're full of yourself.


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## runnah (Oct 11, 2017)

SquarePeg said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > True, but unfortunately it seems there are 3 more that pop up for every one that gets eaten.
> ...



Mcdonalds sells billions of "hamburgers" everyday. NASCAR is is insanely popular. American Idol had like 10 seasons.

I think it's clear we have poor taste as a country.*


* avoiding the obvious example of a poor choice.


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## nerwin (Oct 11, 2017)

runnah said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> > smoke665 said:
> ...



American Idol is coming back.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 11, 2017)

Gary A. said:


> But ... you are also saving yourself from an argument and people saying you're full of yourself.



hahaha pretty much.  My work will speak for itself.  If people hire some 16 year old girl with a camera over me, then obviously they didn't see the value in my work.  I blame myself for not doing enough instead of blaming the 16 year old girl.  You can't control what others do but you have plenty of choices in what you do.


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## smoke665 (Oct 11, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> My work will speak for itself. If people hire some 16 year old girl with a camera over me, then obviously they didn't see the value in my work.



Your statement made me think. Maybe, just maybe, they aren't taking away from the professional market, but instead they're tapping a market segment that wouldn't have hired a professional anyway, be it lack of money or cheapo.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 11, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> Your statement made me think. Maybe, just maybe, they aren't taking away from the professional market, but instead they're tapping a market segment that wouldn't have hired a professional anyway, be it lack of money or cheapo.



You're absolutely right!  There will always be Huyndai buyers and there will always Ferrari buyers.  Be the Ferrari of your field.

People always worry about how new photographers charging next to nothing are ruining the market.  Well, if clients cannot differentiate your work and a noob's work then you need to worry, but not about the noob but more about improving your work.  For wedding photography, beautiful photos alone dont really bring me businesses.  It's beyond just beautiful photos.


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## Dean_Gretsch (Oct 11, 2017)

Glad I read this thread. All the more reason for me to continue to _not _do Facebook


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## nerwin (Oct 11, 2017)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> Glad I read this thread. All the more reason for me to continue to _not _do Facebook



How do people know your still alive? Haha.


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## Jamesaz (Oct 11, 2017)

I worked in commercial/industrial photography for over 40 years. Two things were constant: there's always someone who'll do it cheaper and a good line of bs and a little talent will go farther than a lot of talent. So it's "same as it ever was" with regard to this question.


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## Dean_Gretsch (Oct 11, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Dean_Gretsch said:
> 
> 
> > Glad I read this thread. All the more reason for me to continue to _not _do Facebook
> ...



I leave my house daily


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## DanOstergren (Oct 21, 2017)

If you're any good, charge them money and teach them how to be better. Lot's of money there.


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## Peeb (Oct 21, 2017)

I got my first photo training about 40 years ago and I've shot tens of thousands of images (at least).  I've got a very solid and practical understanding of the exposure triangle and rules of composition. My Flickr page has a few keepers and I've even been nominated for POTM before (thanks @Derrel )!

I was invited to do a professional gig recently.  I said no way!  Shooting for others is a whole different game.  You can't come home with a card full of losers and just shrug and say 'oh well' - then reformat the card and hope for better tomorrow.  You HAVE to produce great results.  Failure is not an option.

I didn't decline because I didn't know enough.
I declined because I know too much!  

Props to those brave souls who put their livelihood and reputations on the line every day, dancing with that fickle mistress known as photography!


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## benhasajeep (Oct 23, 2017)

I never understood the value of Facebook.  Never looked into it seriously.  Tried it for a couple days.  Didn't care for it.  Took 30 days for the account to close!


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## SquarePeg (Oct 23, 2017)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> Glad I read this thread. All the more reason for me to continue to _not _do Facebook



Facebook is great for keeping in touch with family and friends that you don't see every day.  Also good for sharing things with your community.  The rest of it is a time suck.



DanOstergren said:


> If you're any good, charge them money and teach them how to be better. Lot's of money there.



I think there's more money to be made in running workshops than there is in photography itself.  



benhasajeep said:


> I never understood the value of Facebook.  Never looked into it seriously.  Tried it for a couple days.  Didn't care for it.  Took 30 days for the account to close!



It think it does have value but only for some things.  If it wasn't for Facebook I would not know what most of my cousin's children look like!  I have 27 first cousins on my mom's side.  All are married with kids.  We're spread out all over the US and only get together once or twice a year, if that.  Despite that, we're a close family and like to stay in touch.  Facebook makes it easy.  Even a few of the "younger" aunts and uncles are on FB.  My 70 year old uncle uses it every day.  His kids live in 3 different states.

I use it extensively for community things as well.  Our softball league, my photo group, Princess's PTO, my local political affiliation, and lots of our local businesses all have FB pages and all  have come in handy for finding info and keeping up with local events.  I will say that the local community page can be a bit of a minefield but it's great for getting a recommendation for a reliable service person or finding out what events are coming up.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Come to think of it, my FB business page has been dead ever since they changed the algorithm.  I kind of give up on my business FB page and just post stuff on my personal FB account.  My IG page on the other hand is doing better than expected.


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## nerwin (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> Come to think of it, my FB business page has been dead ever since they changed the algorithm.  I kind of give up on my business FB page and just post stuff on my personal FB account.  My IG page on the other hand is doing better than expected.



That's what I use my personal FB page for. I pretty much only share my photos. I very rarely participate in other people's posts unless I can't sleep or am dying of boredom.


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## Braineack (Oct 24, 2017)

benhasajeep said:


> I never understood the value of Facebook. Never looked into it seriously. Tried it for a couple days. Didn't care for it. Took 30 days for the account to close!



you should follow all the cat meme feeds like I do.


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

Like @SquarePeg I  follow FB for family photos. However it seems like there are times when that becomes a double edge sword. When I was child families made it a point to travel to see family, now with FB it's easy to forgo the travel.


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## Braineack (Oct 24, 2017)

I blocked and unfollowed most my family. rofl.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 24, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I blocked and unfollowed most my family. rofl.



I have 3 people blocked and they are also all family, lol.  Annoying brother, swearing every post cousin's husband, emotionally needy cousin


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## nerwin (Oct 24, 2017)

Braineack said:


> I blocked and unfollowed most my family. rofl.



Me too. As they say...great minds think alike!!


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## nerwin (Oct 24, 2017)

Who wants some game invites?


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## Dean_Gretsch (Oct 24, 2017)

SquarePeg said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > I blocked and unfollowed most my family. rofl.
> ...



 I think we are related!!


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## Solarflare (Oct 30, 2017)

Well I'm not the only person in my family with a camera and a bit of an idea of what they're doing.

Also I'm only photographing since, I dunno, 5 years now ?

So I wasnt in this situation yet.


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## Nevermore1 (Oct 31, 2017)

Last time my husbands cousin tried to show off her "professional" photos to me I bit my tongue and responded with "looks like you're getting some practice!"  She saw me out taking photos of the farm one weekend and a few weeks later when we were visiting she pulls out her brand new camera (the same camera I have, Canon 70D) and announces that she's now a professional photographer.  She went and took one class at a local college and thinks she's an expert.  She's always trying to get people to buy calendars and what not and does photos for family weddings (she charges them, always bragging about how she's being paid to attend).  I haven't had the heart to tell her that 90% of her photos suck, nothing like a wedding portrait with a huge shadow going right through the couples face.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I'm tons better than she is but at least I know I'm not good enough to charge for photos.

Edited for several typos.


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## Jamesaz (Nov 12, 2017)

I attended a street fair yesterday and there was a woman selling 11x14 prints, matted on 16x20 board for $15.00. Her stuff didn't interest me, mostly landscapes and flowers but more or less competent, if unexciting inkjet prints. She also had notecards. I figure they had to be done by some automated service where the files were read, adjusted, printed and matted for a fixed fee, but I didnt ask because I couldn't get my head around selling a print for 15$. How can this be done without losing money? Not to mention how it cheapens others' images. I totally get how it's photography and doesn't have the pricing structure of other media, and I totally get that these are not hand made and are probably done for people with limited resources looking for something they can "live with" but $15? Really?


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