# Martial Arts



## MDowdey (Dec 11, 2004)

Has anyone taken or is in the process of taking any martial arts? im interested in beginning a program, but just like buying things, there is way too much to look through. im not particularly interested in any type of wrestling, and i want something that is high impact. any suggestions from the peanut gallery out there?


thanks

your friendly moderator.

md


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## terri (Dec 11, 2004)

No, but may I say the thought of you in one of those cool little white butt-kicking costumes, yelling, "Aiiiii.....YAH!" is totally hot.      

That is all...carry on.....


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## aggiezach (Dec 11, 2004)

I've been wanting to do the same thing for some time now... so I'd be interested in knowing about this as well! 

Maybe after I'm outta school...


Zach


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## Bokeh (Dec 11, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> Has anyone taken or is in the process of taking any martial arts?



Hi MD,

Hope you don't mind this long reply, but that's a long question and I just want to possibly help.

I've been training for years and I absolutely love it and wouldn't trade the time I've put in for anything in the world. *IF* you train in the rihgt art and *IF* you go to a good school (bad schools are often referred to as "McDojo's") you get a combination of physical fitness, confidence, self defense, you meet new people, you improve your reflexes big time etc.  

Honestly, my strong suggestion would be to sign up for the forum at mma.tv and ask for good places in your location; people do that all the time and get tons of great advice. 

But I'll give you my thoughts, I'm no expert and I get beat all the time, but for what they're worth...

First, decide what you are interested in, or, put another way, decide how _serious_ you are about training..  Are you just interested in a "cardio" workout or just to be able to say to your friends that you're taking martial arts?  Are you interested in the "metaphysical" side of martial arts, whatever that means?  If you're interested in any of that stuff, I can't help you at all, try the local YMCA or tae kwon do school, and you can stop reading now and ignore the rest of this message...

But if you're interested in self defense, I would suggest a school that teaches a combination of Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  Most schools nowadays offer both, because both of those have been proven to be the most effective arts (and really, the only effective ones) out there through events like the UFC (www.ufc.tv) and Pride (www.pridefc.com).

Here is the main school I train at:  http://www.carlosmachado.net
Here is another school I train it, every other Friday: http://www.saekson.com

I personally go to the best BJJ and best Muay Thai school in the DFW area, however, not everyone can afford to do that. Look for a school that offers both, from accredited instructrors.

Here is a good example of a school that that has a "combination" of muay thai and BJJ:  http://www.ndbjj.com

I will warn you about this, it is not easy to find a "good, quality'" school. If you live in a small town or very small city, your chances of training at a good school are not good; but it is possible. This is why it would save you a lot of grief to sign up at mma.tv and post a message telling people what city you're in - if there's a good school there, trust me, you'll hear about it.  And as a side note, that site gets about 40,000 hits a day and some fairly famous people are on there; I've talked to Joe Rogan several times on that forum! Didn't know if you knew but he's into martial arts also. 

As a "general rule," if you check out a school and they're teaching you to fight guys who have guns, or they have you bow in and treat the instructor like he's some kind of GOD, and they tell you you should never use your art becase it's too "deadly" or you'll have to register your hands as weopons when you get your black belt (which is typically about a year), or that their art will teach you that you can kill Shaquill O'Neill in one blow (Sorry to break it to you, but if you trained for 10 years in any martial art someone like that would probably hurt you bad), then  run! As fast as you can - you'v encountered a true McDojo.  

Hope that helps, let me know if you need any other information, take care.


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## Mitica100 (Dec 12, 2004)

MD, Tracy is absolutely right!  You have to find the right person instructing you, otherwise it's a waste of time and money on your part.  Ask around before you commit.  I was lucky to have studied and trained in Aiki-Do while away from home (in Aspen, CO) and with a wonderfully skilled Sensei, Black Belt 7th Rank.  Upon returning home to AZ I looked for the best Aiki-Do Dojo, went there and was totally disappointed with the style of training.  All they were interested in was how much money they can make off you and not much else.

It's a very good idea to investigate first, as to the quality of training of a particular Dojo.  Perhaps there is a web site ranking Dojos in every state, I don't know...

Good luck.

Oh, BTW...  I took some T'ai Chi as well, which I felt it helped a lot with gaining the proper physical and mental balance.


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## Luminosity (Dec 12, 2004)

Like the others said , choosing a quality school and instructor is paramount. 
Have ya looked into Taekwondo darl ? 

I got my black belt in Taekwondo when I was 15 and , yes , it is a fantastic martial art.

Here if ya need to ask questions about it but heres a link anyways http://www.wtf.org/


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## Bokeh (Dec 12, 2004)

Luminosity said:
			
		

> Like the others said , choosing a quality school and instructor is paramount.
> Have ya looked into Taekwondo darl ? http://www.wtf.org/



Luminosity, I absolutely love your avatar...

I try and be real respectful of all martial arts, but it's hard for me to be that way toward some because I've seen that many simply do not work.  I took TKD (tae kwon do) as a 16 year old from an accredited school and, honestly, my humble opinion is that things like tkd, almost all karate, and akido will typically only serve to make a student overconfident and undercompetent.  Even Bruce Lee said that arts that have "katas" like tkd and karate added very little value to reality self defense.  And thanks to events like the UFC and Pride, It's been proven that fancy high kicks only get people hurt, esp. on concrete.

I hate to break thisto  people I talk to about martial arts, but despite much of the hype and Karte Kid type "myth" surrounding martial arts, esp. like karate, tkd etc., unfortunately SIZE MATTERS.  It's dangerous to me to see karate and other arts try and convince people that they can get a black belt and go out and beat up on someone like Shaq (I use him as an example because he is such a giant guy).

If you watch early events like the UFC you can see several black belts in different martial arts get their tails handed to them by people with no training at all, in particular by a guy named David "Tank" Abott who was outspoken against martial arts in general, until he got beat by people who studied arts that DID work and then he was like 'oh, ok, some are ok I guess' He was sort of a jerk, but he helped us all realize that although it's ok to take any art if you're interested in the "spirituatl" side of it, you have to accept that some will simply get you hurt in a self-defense situation.

Here's some stats on "Tank" Abbott; you can see he's not a physically impressive body building type guy or anything. In fact, he used to brag that to train for fights he just drank beer and partied. He's just a tough, strong guy.  And I don't care for him but again, he did educate many students of martial arts, whether they liked it or not.  

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=110


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## John E. (Dec 12, 2004)

It all depende on what you are interested in?

If all you are interested in is fighting, then something along the lines of combat karate, thai kick boxing and so on would work.

If you are interested in martial arts in which being able to defend yourself better is only a sideline, then you would have to choose between hard and soft style, Remember martial arts is art/ philosphy  at least in the good schools, self defence kinda makes the art a practicial art.

Practicing Kata's will not make a person a better fighter. What it is is a form of meditation that teaches the body brain to do what it has to do and the mind brain to also be able to act on its own. The repeitive movemnents if done properly will but a person into trance state. There are other benifits to Kata's to long to list here.

Hard styles would be along the lines of Karate and Tai kwon do. Soft styles like akido and kung fu are soft and takes ages to master,  if it is possible as they are highly technicial, but can be very satisfying also. 

A martial arts master (can't remember his name right  now) said " One cannot practise martial arts  without practicing Zen. One cannot practice Zen without practicing Martiarl Arts." Zen is the only evolving philosphy ever, it is not religion.

As others have stated there are way more bad schools out there than good ones. Pick which ever one  you are most interested in and do your research. Remember the worst schools are the ones that push the idea of being able to beat up just about anybody and force you to buy hundreds of belts, after all,  for the right amount of money in some schools one can pretty near buy a black belt.


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## Bokeh (Dec 12, 2004)

Hi Cruizin! Thanks for the comments.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> It all depends on what you are interested in?
> 
> If all you are interested in is fighting, then something along the lines of combat karate, thai kick boxing and so on would work.



Well, I disagree with karate being a good art to take to learn how to fight, for the reasons mentioned above I won't reiterate, but to each his own. But I see your point, if you want to learn to defend yourself (what you call 'fighting') then learn arts like Muay Thai (the best striking art in the world) and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (the best grappling art in the world).  Those two have been proven in combat to be far superior to all others.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Practicing Kata's will not make a person a better fighter.



Absolutely correct Cruzin...



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> What it is is a form of meditation that teaches the body brain to do what it has to do and the mind brain to also be able to act on its own.



I would agree with that. However I would contend that there are better methods to do that than practicing kata.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Hard styles would be along the lines of Karate and Tai kwon do.



I'm not sure why TKD and karate would be considered "hard styles." If you mean difficult, I would say that making it through a thai boxing class is far, far more difficult than any tkd or karate school I've ever been to or seen in my time.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Soft styles like akido and kung fu are soft and takes ages to master,  if it is possible as they are highly technicial, but can be very satisfying also.



I think by that definition of "soft style" you should list Braziliain Jiu Jitsu at the very top. After all, it literally translates to "gentle art." It is far more of a gentle and soft art than either of those.  Most people don't even know what it is, unless they've watched 180# Royce (www.roycegracie.tv) beat guys 3x his size in the ring without ever even hitting them.  THAT is what you call a gentle art.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> As others have stated there are way more bad schools out there than good ones.



Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct.  Again schools who churn out black belts for those willing to pay for it are often referred to as "McDojos."



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Remember the worst schools are the ones that push the idea of being able to beat up just about anybody



Well, I'm not sure about that. I would say the worst ones are the ones that tell you after getting their black belt you can go and beat up on anyone and everyone will fear you; this is not the case, since unfortunately there are plent of Tank Abott's out there willing to test your theory. Again, reality is that size and strength matter a LOT and I've seen plenty of black belts get their tail handed to them for thinking otherwise. All it takes is someone who doesn't believe in the "mystique" of martial arts.  And when you run across a guy that doesn't care how many black belts you have, that's usually a guy who has been in many fights, and the "average" black belt out there may find a tough battle in a guy like that.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> for the right amount of money in some schools one can pretty near buy a black belt.



Absolutely that is correct as well....

MD, the other thing that no one has mentioned yet is the aspect of physical fitness.  I can tell you from experience that it doesn't matter how much technique, size, strength, or anything you have, if you are fat and out of shape and can't defend yourself longer than 2min. You would be so, so suprised how many people fall into this category. We've had guys come into our school who even  lifted weights but never ran or did any cardiovascular workout. You might guess how easily they were dismantled.  At the risk of quoting one of the WORST movies in the history of film, "Roadhouse," I have to, since it is soooo applicable:  "Man can't breathe, man can't fight."

Take care


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## mrsid99 (Dec 12, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> Has anyone taken or is in the process of taking any martial arts? im interested in beginning a program, but just like buying things, there is way too much to look through. im not particularly interested in any type of wrestling, and i want something that is high impact. any suggestions from the peanut gallery out there?
> 
> 
> thanks
> ...



 Ever thought of applying for a CCW?


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## Bokeh (Dec 12, 2004)

mrsid99 said:
			
		

> Ever thought of applying for a CCW?



By ccw do you mean conceal weopon permit?  If so, that's actually an interesting thought.  My sister asked me once if I ever thought of getting one. I have, but not for self defense. If someone doesn't like the fact that you just bumped into them and starts pushing you around, are you going to pull out your gun and shoot them?  

Also carrying a gun around has other implications that I suppose aren't really relevant here, and we could debate about that all day and I don't care to debate the whole gun issue. I like guns but don't want to go carrying one around, mainly because I have children.

Please allow me to share some recent pictures of a seminar from our BJJ school I did the photography for:


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## John E. (Dec 12, 2004)

Combat Karate is a loose term. It is made up of all fighting styles, the idea is too take a person out by  any means as fast as possible. I don't consider it an art. Traditional Karate is  generally considered a hard style. Punching and kicking are generally considered hard,  while judo and  Jiu Jitsu have alot of throwing and grappling  is considered soft.   I left many styles out as there is way to many to list.

All are good, just depends on what u like. Personally right now at my age I would love to find a  traditional Tai Chi class to go to every morning as I am more into the art and meditation.


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## Bokeh (Dec 12, 2004)

Cruzin said:
			
		

> All are good, just depends on what u like.



Whether or not they're good at "self defense" depends on which one; some are far, far better than others.  It's not that I'm biased, it's been proven in combat events. There's really nothing to debate; in the early days of the UFC, it was pretty obvious that arts like karate and aikido weren't effective when you are put on your back.

As for thai chi, I have respect for that since it doesn't tout itself as a self defense art, but is more excerise, relaxation, etc.  I bet if I tried a class in that it would be really good; I just don't have time.  But I'd recommend it to someone.  You are almost certainly not going to get injured doing an art like that, as you might in self defense arts, at least eventually if you trained in them long enough.


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## Bokeh (Dec 12, 2004)

How odd, I was having dinner with a friend tonight and he started talking about that movie with TIm Allen and James Belushi where Tim gets bullied by that guy off of Seinfeld, and decides to take up kung fu.  What was interesting is that my friend made the comment: "Sometimes people don't LET you turn the other cheek or walk away."

How true.  I've said before that all those bullies most people ran into in high school didn't just disappear after the 12th grade; no, they're still out there. It's just a lot more fun now when they mess with me 

Also, where's MD??


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## Corry (Dec 12, 2004)

It's the weekend...I'm sure he has things to do.  He'll be back.


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## MDowdey (Dec 12, 2004)

sorry gang! i was working most of the weekend!!


i really appreciate all of your input and thoughts. i know 269% more now that i did when i asked the question. my greatest fear is that living in SC wont get me anywhere cause there might not be too many good schools in columbia. 

also, i dont want to sound shallow, but when the guy signing me up asks me why im there, im going to tell him the truth. i just want to be able to defend myself. or to put it less mildly, i want to be able to wreck someone. not just any random people. but i need more confidence in myself and this seems like a fun and creative way to do it. i really like the BJJ style, but there arent many people around here willing to teach BJJ. i guess the research continues,  thanks for all your help!!!!

md


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## Artemis (Dec 13, 2004)

Dude, learn Drunken fist...and yes...its a real martial art....loook it up duuuddeeettteee!


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## Luminosity (Dec 13, 2004)

Artemis said:
			
		

> Dude, learn Drunken fist...and yes...its a real martial art....loook it up duuuddeeettteee!



:LOL:


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## voodoocat (Dec 13, 2004)

No matter how hard and often you train... there is always someone else who has trained harder and more often.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

LOL@Artemis! 


HI again MD. Just a few comments...



			
				MDowdey said:
			
		

> my greatest fear is that living in SC wont get me anywhere cause there might not be too many good schools in columbia.



Unfortunately, I fear you may be right, but we won't know for sure until you ask some people on mma.tv - who knows, there may very well be a good school in your area, I apologize, but I just don't hav ea clue about Columbia NC. I do know there are good schools in NC, just don't know where Columbia is.



			
				MDowdey said:
			
		

> also, i dont want to sound shallow, but when the guy signing me up asks me why im there, im going to tell him the truth. i just want to be able to defend myself. or to put it less mildly, i want to be able to wreck someone. not just any random people.



Lol, well, obviously if you tell them you want to be able to wreck people, most will probably ask you to leave... I've seen a few people get kicked out of places.  

But yeah if you tell them you're interested in self defense, most good schools will tell you to come on in.  And if you want self defense, it's muay thai and BJJ all the way. You can't beat that combination.  

Just don't forget, you HAVE to learn some kind of grappling.  THere's a saying in the fight world that goes "If you can't fight on the ground, you CAN'T fight."  Rent some old UFC"s and you'll see many fights where a guy who was really dangerous on his feet found out really quickly how hard it is to throw punches and kicks when someone puts you on your back. Not only that, but even if you don't run across someone who "knows" how to grapple, often times fights "just go to the ground."  People only have 2 legs like dogs, and yet even dogs often wind up rolling around on the ground when they fight.



			
				MDowdey said:
			
		

> i really like the BJJ style, but there arent many people around here willing to teach BJJ.
> md



Again, you will save yourself a lot of misery by signing up at mma.tv and posting a message, asking the same thing you asked here. I can tell you all about martial arts, but I don't know anyone in your area; there are thousands of people on the forum, and I'm sure someone lives right in your own city.

Good luck and keep us posted!! ANd I hear NC is beautiful btw.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

voodoocat said:
			
		

> No matter how hard and often you train... there is always someone else who has trained harder and more often.



voodoo, it doesn't even take that.  LIke I said in a previous post, I can almost guarantee you if you take a guy that is 5'3" and 130lbs and train him in martial arts for 10 years, he would likely get hurt by someone like Shaq.  That's just the way it is. Am I saying "don't bother training"? Definitely not, how many guys do you run across in everyday life like Shaq? I don't think I EVER have. But I've seen plenty of guys like "Tank Abott" and I know if they started something with me I would have a good chance of beating them based on my skills of striking and grappling, however given the choice I would rather NOT considering that anything can happen in a confrontation like that; I could accidently slip and hit my head or something, who knows.  So it's best NOT to fight unless you absolutely have to. But as my friend said last night, sometimes peoeple don't give you that option.

Just trying to make the point here that, again, training in martial arts doesn't mean you're going to be able to beat up anyone you run across, even those who have never trained a day in their life.  Someone 3x your size only needs ONE good solid shot to your face and you're OUT.  It's as simple as that.  

For the record, I'm 5'8" and 180#, so it's not like I'm saying this to make people scared of size; only to "respect size."  It does matter, quite a bit, if you're talking about a 40# difference or more.

Now, MD, here's the flipside to respecting size.  I know a guy in TUlsa that is 175#. He recently entereed a "no holds barred" tournament. There weren't many people in his weight class, so when he won that class, he fought a guy like 205 and beat him too.  That's what training "can" do for you. Will it necessarily? No.  Is it "likely"? If you train in the right arts, such as MT and BJJ, like this guy did. But don't go picking on Shaq at a lakers game 

P.S. I can also tell you that I know plenty of guys 40# less than me that I would not dare mess with "given the choice."


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

tracy, 

what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that. 




md


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> tracy,
> 
> what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that.
> md



Good question ,and interesting issues.  Most instructors offer "private lessons."  These typically run around $75-100/hour. Interestingly, ours charges $300/hour  :shock: Of course ,he also taught chuck norris everything he knows about BJJ. But I digress.

Private lessons, if you can afford them, are a great way to get individualized attention and "focus" in on certain things.  However, you will NEVER be able to properly advance your skills if all you ever do is privates, and here's why.   The instructor is typically "nicer" when you're 1 on 1. You do NOT want nice, you want what's effective, right? Nice won't help you when Tank gets drunk and starts pushing on you.

Quick story, I knew a guy once who only took privates, and never 'sparred" with people in class.  This was NOT at the school I go t onow. He got his blue belt very quickly, and that kind of irritated me a bit.  He was also about 40# heavier than me, and not fat.  But I knew I could beat the guy simply because he never sparred, and if you don't spar, you don't learn.  One day the instructor asked me to spar with him to get him some practice. Without bragging, I pretty much destroyed the guy, and was only going about 90%.  The instructor made the comment "Tracy has a lot more mat time."  THAT is what it's all about, "mat time."  Yes you have to learn technique; with out, you're just a chicken with its head cut off.  but technique is not enough, you have to practice it. It would be like taking photography classes and never taking pictures; same thing.

I don't want to sound harsh, but in the spirit of helping you as best I can based on what I know, you will just have to get over not wanting to be in a big group - and trust me, please, you'll get over it QUICKLY, becaues 90% of schools I've ever been to are chock full of nice, friendly people, who love to help other people out. Just think, most of them are probably just like you, they are there not to learn to advanced their bullying abilities, no those guys are typically out smoking, drinking and partying, while you're training.  Most people are there to learn self defense,and get tin shape, just like you. Even the "scariest" people that I know, are often the nicest guys to work with.

i wouldn't sweat being i na big group at all; in fact, I would MUCH prefer that, and the reason is because, at least to me, when there are only 5 people in the class, I feel like it's more "competitive" because you have a spotlight on you and no one wants to lose. In a big class, you can get lost in the crowd so to speak.

Another thing about big classes, it's ULTRA important to spar with people of ALL kinds of body types. What if you always train with guys your size or even bigger, and you have to defend yourself against someone who is different?  I can tell you what will happen, you will be slightly handicapped because you'r enot used to the different problems that come up with different body types. You have to spar with small fast guys, big slow guys, big fast guys (the worst  medium guys, guys your size, short guys, tall guys, everyone.

And women have it even worse!! I see posts from women all the time "I don't want to spar with sweaty guys." HELLO?? WHO do you think is possibly going to be trying to RAPE you, a nice polite 120# hottie? Hardly ,it's going to be someone that you should be learning to defend youself against.

It reeeeally makes me sad to see "cardio kickboxing" classes full of women when that's like the LAST thing they need to be learning.  Any time I ge ta chance to preach about the virtues of things like MT and especially BJJ to women I do my best to sway them that way.  Usually if a man attacks a woman, he doesn't kick and punch her, he GRAPPLES her to the ground.


P.S. "sensei" is not something someone is called in BJJ and muay thai.  Most of the time the instructor is either called by their first name, or possibly "Coach."


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

I'll try and keep this short.  This is an AMAZING story.

I read an article in "black belt magazine" about 5 years ago I will never forget.  

This african-american couple were both black belts in tkd. It was being told from the woman's perspective in tihs article.  She said she usually beat her husband in training when they sparred, and had more experience.

Well one day, they got into a heated argument that turned violent. Guess what? It turned to GRAPPLING, which neither of them knew nothing about, and when that's the case the big strong person won; he "mounted" her (that's  aposition where someone is on their back, and the other person is completely on their chest) and beat her up bad.

Well after that, she said she signed up at a BJJ class.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> tracy,
> 
> what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that.
> 
> md



MD, I just re-read your post and I don't think I completely answered you...

You asked what classes are like. I've been to MANY schools in the South and I can tell you they're almost all the same in their format.  Typically there are at least 15 people, sometimes 20. The instructor will get up and demonstrated a few "techniques" with someone else while everyone watches, you'll pair up with somoene, and you'll do the technique as well.  repeate this for about 3-4 techniques ,and then you'll spar for about 20min.

That's BJJ.  Muay thai is obvoiusly different. Most "real" muay thai schools usually do a LOT of padwork. Padwork is also VERY difficult. Try punching an dkicking a bag hard for about 5 min straight. It's a different type of workout than BJJ and vice versa.  The format of those classes is usually lik ethis. You come in, warm up with jump rope and stretching, do some shadow boxing, the instructor does some techniques and then the whole class does them.  Then, you spend about 20-30min doing padwork; not straight 20min, you'll hold for 3-5min for a guy, and then you'll trade. You'll usually do punches ,knees, elbows and low kicks. All the while the instructor is roaming around watching and critiquing. Pad work is very, very important for a number of reasons I don't feel are relevant to list at this point since the post is already long.

From what I've seen, in muay thai, you usually don't spar 100%.  You spar either at about 30% if you're just going light in class, or if you have headgear on, you'll spar at about 80-85%.  It's rare to see two guys sparring 100%, because usually the harder you go, the more likely one guy will get hurt.  I broke my toe not long ago going at about 80% though so it happens there too.

It IS however, the case, that you go 100% when sparring in grappling. THAT is the huge plus for grappling, is you "can" spar 100% and not worry much about getting hurt.  So basically, it's 100% realistic.  How's that for training! Can't beat that. cya


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

is muay thai the same, or close to the same thing as traditional thai kickboxing? i hate to use this reference, but kinda like the movie bloodsport? lots of knees and elbows? ive been looking in the local phonebook and there are places that teach it, but its $$$, im just wondering if its worth that much to me...


md


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> is muay thai the same, or close to the same thing as traditional thai kickboxing? i hate to use this reference, but kinda like the movie bloodsport? lots of knees and elbows? ive been looking in the local phonebook and there are places that teach it, but its $$$, im just wondering if its worth that much to me...
> md



I don't usually watch martial arts movies becuase they're so ridiculous (I can't help but watch karate kid because of Elizabeth Shue, my favorite hollywood hottie of all time) but I did see bits and pieces of that movie... Yes, traditional thai kickboxing is what is meant by muay thai.  Check out www.saekson.com that's where I do muay thai at. He was a 6 time world champion and a HELL of a nice guy, but inside class he's tough and puts you through a very hard workout. But anyway he has some info on MT there. ndbjj.com also has some info on MT.  The guy that teaches there taught my son for a while when he was with Saekson a while back.

For a good MT school, you will probably pay around $80/month. I'm not sure if that's $$$ to you or not.  Saekson was like $100 I think.  Is MT worth it? Heck yeah! MT is awesome. You will NOT get good self defense paying $30/month at the YMCA for karate classes, trust me.

You are also FAR more likely to find a "good" MT school than BJJ because BJJ is very "new" to the United States. MT is not, it's only become more popular recently because of it's televised effectiveness in events like the UFC and pride.

ANOTHER STORY!! lol.

You can actually see this story yourself:  Go to blockbuster and rent ufc #7.  Ufc #7 is THE reason I got back into martial arts after a long hiatus from tkd at age 16.  In that ufc, a guy named "Marco Ruas" from Brazil fights this GODZILLA sized guy.  the guy is like 6'8 and 320# or something crazy like that , AND the guy is strong, in shape and fast.  Well, for most of that fight, Marco uses Muay Thai, although he also knows grappling.  What eventually took the big guy down was muay thai leg kicks.  It was so odd, because after a round or two, the big guy is in the ring and just all of a sudden falls down because he can't stand anymore.  It almost looked fake, but it wasn't.  You could see the damage on his leg he took from the kicks.  That's what MT is known for is leg kicks.  

Again, to quote a horrible movie "Road house,"... "Man can't walk, man can't fight." lol True though!

MT would also be great in a club or bar because you do close-range stuf flike knees and elbows. I love knees and elbows.  Your elbow is an incredible weopon; you could elbow a wall and it wouldn't even hurt much. I wither in pain when I'm wrestling with my wife and she digs her knife-like elbows into my legs. They hurt BAD! Many NHB fights have been stopped because of elbows because they cut easily.


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## markc (Dec 13, 2004)

Here's a good place to go if you want to get familiar with the basic ideas behind a lot of different styles: Martial Arts FAQ

While I agree with Bokeh that some arts are better than others when it comes to strictly fighting, I do think that saying that they are all still valid choices remains true, depending on what you want out of it and your circumstances. BJJ may be the best ground-fighting style there is for true fighting, but if you can't find a school in your area, that doesn't help too much. Plus, while I'm not really one of them, some people find katas and forms helpful for focus. Some people like the competitions, tournaments, and team aspects. Not everyone is in the same place when it comes to training. Many have to start with one style and then when they have learned certain aspects from that one, move on to others.

My advice is to pick one that apeals to you to start with. You can have the best teacher in the best art, but it does you no good if you have no interest in the class and don't go. Look to see what's available in your area and look up the styles in the FAQ. Pick a few schools that look good to you and then visit them. They may treat it like they are interviewing you for admission, but really you are interviewing them to see if they will give you what you want in training.

After you pick a place, make sure you _go_. And while you are doing this, grab some magazines and books to become familiar with the styles that interest you that might not be available in your area. If you develope a strong enough interest in one of them, and you start to see shortcomings in your current style, it may even prompt a move if you become serious enough about it.

My personal training has been with Shao Lin Wu Su Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu, and a little of Akido. I'm not taking anything now, but I'm not sure what I would get involved in if I could go back. BJJ would be on the short list.

And my personal view on tournaments: If you are serious about the self-defense aspects of the art, stay away from them. Most of them are set up to be a sport and and safe as possible, considering what you are doing. You end up training yourself to avoid groin shots and strikes to the neck: things that could save your life. That guy with the knife doesn't give a damn if you just scored a point. He just wants your money. If you want a sport, they can be great, but some schools focus on just beating the other schools.


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## markc (Dec 13, 2004)

Not to gang up on one art, but I have to second the notion of not taking TKD if you want serious fighting technique. It's a great sport, but one of the things I was taught is to never kick above the groin. It's a waste of energy and too easy to avoid by someone who is trained. A roundhouse can pack a whallop if it connects, but it has to connect. Several of the Wing Chun moves I learned involved dealing with these kind of kicks specifically; getting in close while the person is spinning around and delivering a nice kidney shot, etc. Wing Chun isn't perfect, but I really liked the in-your-face aspect of the art.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

OMG!! Awesome advice from Mark C!!



			
				markc said:
			
		

> BJJ may be the best ground-fighting style there is for true fighting, but if you can't find a school in your area, that doesn't help too much.



ABSOLUTELY true! I hope there is a good BJJ school in MD's area... but there may not unless it's a good size city.  I'm going to find out for him when I get a chance.

I have known many people over the years who have travelled ridiculous distances to learn BJJ.  Carlos has many people come down from OKC, and at that last seminar a few came from as far as NYC.  That's how important it is to learn good ground skillz.



			
				markc said:
			
		

> Plus, while I'm not really one of them, some people find katas and forms helpful for focus.



I won't argue with that, but I do feel there are better ways.  A big reason to do pad work in MT is focus.  And I just can't help but cite Bruce Lee, who most people considering one of the greatest students of martial arts, when he said that kata were worthless.



			
				markc said:
			
		

> My advice is to pick one that apeals to you to start with. You can have the best teacher in the best art, but it does you no good if you have no interest in the class and don't go.



That's true...  although MD said his primary reason was self defense, so if he's really interested in something that won't work, I would still recommend he goes to a class he's not interested in but will work. Often people aren't "interested" in something because it looks "too hard" or as I said befor emany woman are concerned with sparring with sweaty guys.  Well, you ca't take the "path of least resistence" to self defense; it's going to be hard.  But I can tell you it sure feels good to put a bully in his place when he tries and push you around - it feels REALLY good.




			
				markc said:
			
		

> Look to see what's available in your area and look up the styles in the FAQ.



Also check out http://www.mma.tv/tuf



			
				markc said:
			
		

> After you pick a place, make sure you _go_.



That's one of the best pieces of advice yet, I forgot to talk about that.  You can sign up at the best school in the world, but if you don't go "at least" 2x/week, you'll never get good. And also, people who go more often will eventually pass you if you're initially ranked higher. I used to be able to beat a guy in our school who now kills me because he lives at the school basically. He's also passed me in rank.



			
				markc said:
			
		

> And my personal view on tournaments: If you are serious about the self-defense aspects of the art, stay away from them. Most of them are set up to be a sport and and safe as possible, considering what you are doing.



I agree in part, and disent in part.  It's true, tournaments do have downsides, they are more sport-oriented, with time limits and stuff.  I always laugh at karate tournaments where they break up the action and "reset" after a guy gets a point.  Yeah, that'll happen in a bar.

But BJJ tournaments have fewer negatives.  You DO go 100%, even more so than in class.  It helps in your confidence to get up in front of 200 people and go with another guy. It's incredibly difficult at first, almost surreal, but you get used to it. I'm competing in Jan.  There are negatives, but there are positives as well.  It also pushes you to a higher level of training.

what I hate most about tournaments is hearing this phrase:  "You're ahead, just STAY THERE!"

Argh.


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## markc (Dec 13, 2004)

Thanks!


			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> markc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I'm just not a fan of absolutes. Everything has to be taken in context, and while they may have been worthless for what Bruce was after, I know people who feel otherwise. Again, it's not what I'm after either, but everyone is made differently.



> markc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know what you are going for, but I've seen enough people give up that I think it's important to get a "hook" in first. Our culture is one of short attention spans, so keeping an interest is important. Of course it's all a big balancing act. Learning a poor art will instill you with all sorts of bad habits that have to be unlearned. I guess what I was going for was to pick something you think you could stick with for a while, but still gives you some real training. It doesn't have to be perfect. Once you get the swing of things and develop the habit of attending classes, you can always switch to something more demanding. 



> markc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's cool. Of course all the tournaments I've been exposed to (which isn't much) have been in arts I would be taking anyway, so that colors things. Well, then there's the ones you've been talking about that I've seen on television recently. Not something that's available at the local clubs, but man, those things are _REAL_. Ouchies.

I think we are saying the same thing, just with a diferent "flavor".


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

More good input!

I really don't have anything to disagree with in your post, I'll even leave the kata issue alone  I see your point.



			
				markc said:
			
		

> Well, then there's the ones you've been talking about that I've seen on television recently. Not something that's available at the local clubs, but man, those things are _REAL_. Ouchies.



Well, they're definitely closer to real than a tournament, that's for sure.  If you want to see real, rent some of the first several ufc's - they had two rules:  No biting, no gouging the eyes.  Everything else was allowed including groin strikes (OUCH!).  But, tha'ts also what got them illegalized in almost all states. Nowadays there are a number of rules to make it more "tame" for the public so as t onot attract attention from religious groups and politicans. It was actually religious groups that gave NHB (no holds barred) fighting the hardest time originally.  I lived in Tulsa at the time that Royce Gracie fought at the state fair. That was an amazing UFC, and one of the most famous, becuase Royce, at 180#, beat a really great wrestler who weighed 260#.  I wasn't into martial arts at the time or I would have gone to watch it.  Again, UFC 7 got me back into training again by seeing something that was actually effective.

Most people don't realize how much strategy, skill, athleticism and years of training is involved in an NHB match, much more so than boxing IMHO where only the hands are involved.  In NHB matches, a guy doesn't get hit 1000 times in the head and make him stupid.  There is an endless combination of moves that go on. It requires a lot of intelligence on top of ability. It's not near as brutal as one might think. I've done NHB type sparring many times but haven't actually been in a real match, mainly since it's illegal here in TeXas.

Mark, this is a stupid question, but I'm a southern boy; how far are you from Rhode Island?  I ask because Tim Burrill has a school in Rhode Island.  I know there are lots of good schools in NY.

cya


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## havoc (Dec 13, 2004)

Wow, this thread has taken off... I agree with everyone here to a certain extent, but there are some areas i would like to have you guys think about. 

Bok, you are really playing up the art that you study, and your really downplaying all other arts. 

I do agree however, that an art that focuses on both stand up fighting and grappling is more benefical in hand to hand combat, but not self defense.'

I think you guys are confusing HTHC with self defense. If you want to protect yourself from an attacker then you will use self defense. If you wanna fight someone and possibly kill them, then you use HTHC.  

If your only concern is wanting to protect yourself then quite honestly Bokeh, your art is probably not a good choice. In self defense your only consern is to deliver a crippling blow in the least amount of time. You don't wanna hang around with a rapist and grapple him, you wanna kick him in the nuts, shove his nose into his brain and run like hell. Your not going to want to wait around for him to get up and continue to fight. Arts like Karate, TKD and aikido if taught properly are far more effective then grappling for self defense.

Also given the fact that in a self defense situation, you are not going to come accross someone that is "trained" cuz 99.9% of "trained" people have some moral training to back up their skills.  You will run into some thug that either has a gun, or a knife, or will try and shove you around and scare you into doing what they ask. Sure a round house kick is wild and uncontrolled, but chances are that a thug isn't going to be prepared for someone to fight back. That is why what you call "Mcdojo's" teach combo moves. If you miss with the round house they want you to be in a position to follow with a groin punch etc.  Sure someone with training that is expecting you to attack will most likely be able to block your round house, but a common thug will be thrown off guard. 

I understand MD wanting to know how to kick somones ass, it feels good to be confident in your safety. If fighting for sport or combat is for you then i would look at the grappling arts. If i just wanna suprise someone that is attacking me and run the hell away like most people, then i would look into a "Mcdojo" as long as the sensei doesn't have an over inflated ego.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Bok, you are really playing up the art that you study, and your really downplaying all other arts.



No, actually, there's no debate there; as I mentioned earlier, it's already been proven in events like the UFC and Pride which arts work, and which arts don't.



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> If i just wanna suprise someone that is attacking me and run the hell away like most people, then i would look into a "Mcdojo"



Well, best of luck with that - I just hope you can run faster than the other guy can 



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> If your only concern is wanting to protect yourself then quite honestly Bokeh, your art is probably not a good choice.



Really?  Wow.  Well, I hope you don't take it personally if I choose not to debate with you on that.  I've been through that debate with people in the past and it never goes anywhere. All I can say is, I would recommend to you to go to blockbuster and rent any of a variety of "reality combat" videos and you'll see for yourself what works and what doesn't.  

I'm actually off to BJJ class guys, take care.


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## havoc (Dec 13, 2004)

You missed the point of what i was saying. What i said is if you wanna protect yourself then UFC style fighting is not for you, If you wanna hang out and fight someone just to be an asshole, then OK UFC is perfect. 
People who are interested in true self defense will all tell you that they don't wanna "hang out" and fight someone, they want to habe the confidence and ability to deliver a quick critical blow and then escape. There is no escaping in UFC style fighting, your locked in a cage till one man is left. Self defense and combat are two completely different situations, with many different martial arts to satisfy both needs. 
I have seen UFC and some "real combat" videos. Those people are fighting bevause they have to, or they want to. In fact UFC and real combat videos are completly irrelevent to self defense and what choices people should make when picking a "self defense" training art.  

The only real fact when everything is boiled down to its purest argument, is that if someone wants to hurt/kill you, they won't use their bare hands, and you won't get a chance to show off your grappling moves, because they will use a gun, and no matter how fast you are, your not faster then a bullet. 
If someone comes at you and wants to fight, your art, though sometimes effective, will only serve to hurt you in the long run. People who fight generally don't do it alone, they bring friends. And you can't grapple 2or 3 people at once. That is why being able to deliver 1 or 2 critical hits and then fleeing is in the long run more benefical to you.  
Of course it doesn't sound like you are reffering to self defense, or even HTHC, your talking about street fighting, which is stupidity at its finest. UFC style fighting is at best only arguably a sport. And if you stick around in the street to fight in a UFC style instead of trying to defend yourdelf and flee at the first abailable moment, then you are even dumber then the original assilant.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

havoc, when did this turn personal? geez, ask a simple question, start a heated debate. the fact is there are too many options and im going to look through them all to see whats best for me.

md


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

Havoc said:
			
		

> You missed the point of what i was saying. What i said is if you wanna protect yourself then UFC style fighting is not for you, If you wanna hang out and fight someone just to be an asshole, then OK UFC is perfect.



Uhhhh... ok.



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> People who are interested in true self defense will all tell you that they don't wanna "hang out" and fight someone, they want to habe the confidence and ability to deliver a quick critical blow and then escape. There is no escaping in UFC style fighting, your locked in a cage till one man is left. Self defense and combat are two completely different situations, with many different martial arts to satisfy both needs.
> I have seen UFC and some "real combat" videos. Those people are fighting bevause they have to, or they want to. In fact UFC and real combat videos are completly irrelevent to self defense and what choices people should make when picking a "self defense" training art.
> 
> The only real fact when everything is boiled down to its purest argument, is that if someone wants to hurt/kill you, they won't use their bare hands, and you won't get a chance to show off your grappling moves, because they will use a gun, and no matter how fast you are, your not faster then a bullet.
> ...



Uhhhh... LOL! Okay man. Have fun. I wish you all the luck in the world.  If you have anything else to say to me do it via email at j2eeconsulting@yahoo.com. I see no reason to continue with this line of exchange though as it is truly laughable. Either that, or you're trolling.


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## Digital Matt (Dec 13, 2004)

I think if you are going into it just to learn how to fight, and beat someone else up, you are going into it for the wrong reasons.  I've been on this earth 28 years, and never taken a martial arts class of any kind, and I've also never gotten myself into a situation I couldn't walk or talk my way out of, and I've been in some serious situations.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I think if you are going into it just to learn how to fight, and beat someone else up, you are going into it for the wrong reasons.  I've been on this earth 28 years, and never taken a martial arts class of any kind, and I've also never gotten myself into a situation I couldn't walk or talk my way out of, and I've been in some serious situations.



its not that i want to beat someone up, i want to learn how to fight. its becoming an increasingly difficult and dangerous world, and this would be just one more tool to use in case i got myself in a tight spot. sure, i wont ever use it probably, but its there. plus it would teach me discipline and a solid work ethic


md


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> its not that i want to beat someone up, i want to learn how to fight. its becoming an increasingly difficult and dangerous world, and this would be just one more tool to use in case i got myself in a tight spot. sure, i wont ever use it probably, but its there. plus it would teach me discipline and a solid work ethic
> md



EXaaaactly.  That's exactly how I feel.  Will it get me out of a robbery? Heck no! I'd give the guy my wallet and run. He's the coward with the gun, not me. 

MD never said he wanted to beat people up for no reason, only if they mess with him. That's a perfectly valid reason to take martial arts.  In all the years I've been training, I have never once run across someone who was a bully taking classes to become a more effective bully. Like I said, the bully's are at the bar, smoking, drinking and getting fat.

And i completely disagree with the notion that you can "talk your way' out of any situation. Unless you're going to completely roll over and bow down to someone, or become a hermit and never leave your house, there WILL be a time when someone will get in your face for next to no reason at all. I for one refuse to let someone push me around, or anyone that I'm with.  Forget that. Sorry if it makes me seem like a hot-head, because I'm not, I just don't take no $.  Life's too short to be bullied around by some redneck.

One thing I heard Tank Abott say on tv once, although I think this is taking it too far, but it sounded kinda cool.  He got kicked out of the UFC for beating up someone in the crowd.  They woudln't let him fight after that for a long time.  His response was "Hey, I'm not a kid on a playground. If you say something toward me I don't like I'm going to show up on your doorstep."  Again that's a ltitle extreme, but I sometimes feel like as a society we've become so "turn the other cheek" that people don't stand up for what is right.  Principle means a lot to me.


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## Digital Matt (Dec 13, 2004)

Well, I guess the difference between you and I is, I think life is too short to let some redneck and his bullying bother me.  I'll walk away every time.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Well, I guess the difference between you and I is, I think life is too short to let some redneck and his bullying bother me.  I'll walk away every time.




matt, i agree with you everytime bro, but what about that one time where they wont let you walk away....


and we have way more rednecks here to worry about  


md


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## havoc (Dec 13, 2004)

I think Matt has it right. So what if the guy is trying to get you to fight, the better man walks away... Everytime

I have seen Tank Abbott, and i am glad he was suspended for his behavior. He is a total white trash loser, certainly not a role model, unless your wanting to become a bar fighting alcoholic.  

I am not Trolling Bokeh, nor am i looking to get into some lame forum fight with you over an opinion. I am more then willing to hear your responses and respect your opinion even if i happen to disagree.  I do believe though if you are going to lay down your opinion in a public forum, then you should be willing to debate or defend your position, not just lay down your piece, quote someone else and then say you refuse to further discuss it in the forum. I saw you do that more then once in this thread to me and others and it kind of irked me the wrong way. I do appologize if you got upset, and i appologize if i made it alittle to personal.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

Havoc said:
			
		

> I do believe though if you are going to lay down your opinion in a public forum, then you should be willing to debate or defend your position, not just lay down your piece, quote someone else and then say you refuse to further discuss it in the forum.




true. if i had started this thread as a debate. i think we have all said what we needed to say here anyways..good points everyone. im going back to half life 2. at least i can shoot them if they talk back  


md


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## Digital Matt (Dec 13, 2004)

Hehe, MD, I live in Ohio dude.  It's pretty much redneck central  

In all honesty, I've never ever been in a situation where I couldn't walk away.  I dunno what to say.  If I see someone is drunk, or pissed off, (it's certainly not because of me, because I'm a really nice guy who doesn't step on toes), I walk away.  I don't talk to them.  I ignore them.  If they are forcing me to talk them, I charm the hell out of them and walk away.  I don't see a reason to fight.  Sometimes I see people and I think they could use a good ass whuppin, but I know it won't actually help them, or help me feel any better. 

If I was in a life or death situation, martial arts would come in real handy, but I don't plan for things like that in my life.  I'm too busy thinking about livin, not dyin, or how to avoid it.  If that day comes along, I'll let instinct and adrenaline take over, and years of pent up frustration from all the fights I've walked away from.  I hope that day never comes.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

very well put and i agree completely. but wouldnt you agree instead of me going down the street and finding a bum to pick a fight with, i could go to the gym or to the dojo and take out the frustration, and be a better man for it without hurting anyone. and at the same time learning something new and exciting?


md


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## Corry (Dec 13, 2004)

THAT'S IT F@%&amp; MARTIAL ARTS!  LETS ALL GO TAKE A BASKET WEAVING COURSE!  Who ever got hurt weaving baskets?  Who gets pissed off while weaving baskets?  And if someone came up to you and pointed a gun at you and said "Hey MOFO!  GIMME ALL YOUR MONEY!" You could just take out your basket weaving materials and say "how about instead, I weave you a nice basket?"   Then the dude would know that you just escaped from the looney bin and therefore have no money.    There.  Conflict solved.


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

wow, i was looking for an excuse to lock this thread. corry, thanks sweetie!!!


md


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## MDowdey (Dec 13, 2004)

just kidding. i kinda like corry's basket weaving idea!!! i signed everyone up!!


md


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## havoc (Dec 13, 2004)

Man that is the course for me... Conflict resolution thru basket weaving! I can see it now, The deadly art of basket weaving taught by 11th degree master sensai Core_17.


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## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

LOL@COre! HOw funny.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Well, I guess the difference between you and I is, I think life is too short to let some redneck and his bullying bother me.



I never said it bothered me; I welcome it, it's fun! 



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I'll walk away every time.



And I will not. I guess that's just a difference between us.



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> I think Matt has it right. So what if the guy is trying to get you to fight, the better man walks away... Everytime



I guess that depends on your definition of "better."  There's a difference in a pacafist and someone who is too cowardice to stick up for what is right - one I respect, the other I cannot. When I put a bully in his place, it doesn't just feel good for doing what is right, it feels good knowing that I have probably helped many people in the future by making this guy think twice about doing that again.  

It reminds me of how my grandmother used to scoff at me for honking at people when they would do something like run through a red light and almost kill us. I used to tell her, "If I honk at them, maybe next time they'll wait their turn. Otherwise, they'll likely do it again."



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> I have seen Tank Abbott, and i am glad he was suspended for his behavior. He is a total white trash loser, certainly not a role model, unless your wanting to become a bar fighting alcoholic.



Lol, how true.  I never said I respected or looked up to him, just that he is a good example of someone who will get in your face and take your head off, and someone who doesn't beleve in "karate kid" martial arts. The only reason Tank respects the few martial arts he does (MT, boxing and BJJ) are because people have made him respect them in the ring.



			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> I am not Trolling Bokeh, nor am i looking to get into some lame forum fight with you over an opinion. I am more then willing to hear your responses and respect your opinion even if i happen to disagree.  I do believe though if you are going to lay down your opinion in a public forum, then you should be willing to debate or defend your position



I can more than defend my position, but I am not willing to do it with you, esp. not here.  See, what you don't realize is, I've been through this on martial arts forums in the past, and it never gets anyone anywhere.  People who believe arts like karate and tkd are effective usually believe that because they've invested a lot of time in those arts and don't want to hear that they aren't effective.  Engaging in this "debate" you're demanding me to engage in will not change your viewpoint. If you're looking for some kind of vindication I suggest you sign up at mma.tv, there are THOUSANDS of people on there who just love to debate things like that, beleive me 8)  About every other month a newbie gets on there and starts making claims that this or that art is better than this or that one. Most people roll their eyes, but many actually join in the flame war.  I however will not. Again, in my mind, which art works and which art doesn't has been proven in venues like the UFC and Pride. 

I've given my suggestions to MD, he can decide for himself what the best school and art in his area is.

P.S. I noticed you live in Oregon; have you ever heard of Randy Cotoure?  Now THAT is a role model, esp. for us "old guys"  :shock:


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## JonMikal (Dec 13, 2004)

i once heard of an elderly woman who strangled another classmate with basket weaving material for having an affair with her husband.  fiesty and dangerous women in those clubs!  :shock:


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## hobbes28 (Dec 13, 2004)

jonmikal said:
			
		

> i once heard of an elderly woman who strangled another classmate with basket weaving material for having an affair with her husband.  fiesty and dangerous women in those clubs!  :shock:



That's just not right.  You fit in well around here.


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## Digital Matt (Dec 13, 2004)

Bokeh, it sounds like you enjoy fighting, and you look for it.

I don't think walking away from a fight is a sign of cowardice.  I think it's a sign of maturity, and intelligence.

I'm sticking up for what I believe is right by disagreeing with you about fighting.

Oh, and don't get me wrong MD.  I'm not saying you shouldn't get into martial arts.  I think it's great, and I highly recommend it.  I get out my agressions by beating up a drumset.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Bokeh, it sounds like you enjoy fighting, and you look for it.



Ask my wife or any of my friends about me; you'll find that is absolutely untrue. I'm a very nice person and I love most people and would give my shirt to a stranger. I just don't take $ from bullies or people who think they have more rights than me. I'm not sure what I said on this thread to give you that impression of me. Please point it out.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I don't think walking away from a fight is a sign of cowardice.



I don't _necessarily_ think that either. It all depends on the circumstances.  I've walked away from fights before; I can think of a few off the top of my head.  One was with a drunk old man in a club I was completely unwilling to fight.  Another was with a biker who was also pretty old, this was very recent.  I got up and went to the restroom. When I got back, thsi guy about 50 years old, around 140# with tattoo's and a leather jacket was sitting in my chair.  I said "Hey, can I have my seat back." He simply said "No." and turned his back on me. I just stood there, waiting, and my wife told him to get up.  I wouldn't have fought the guy unless he attacked me, but I didn't think it was right that he took my chair, esp. since I was videotaping karaoke and had an excellent vantage point from that position.  He apologized and all was well.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I think it's a sign of maturity, and intelligence.



Depends on the situation. Honestly, I think many people use that line as a cop-out because they don't want to put forth the effort to learn to defend themselves.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I'm sticking up for what I believe is right by disagreeing with you about fighting.



I respect that and welcome discussion.  It's really Havoc that I have no desire to debate with because I've been through all that. I was just trying to save MD a lot of time and money choosing a poor school and/art martial art.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Oh, and don't get me wrong MD.  I'm not saying you shouldn't get into martial arts.  I think it's great, and I highly recommend it.  I get out my agressions by beating up a drumset.



Well Matt, hopefully you never get put in a situation where you are forced to defend yourself.  If you are, it will only take once, and you may very well regret the thoughts you posted here.  It only takes once.  And there are people who can outrun you too  Hopefully that will never happen. I have seen situations where a guy accidentally bumps into another guy and before any words are said or anything at all it was basically on.  Several guys I have trained with are bouncers at clubs and I hear stories like that all the time.

MD's right, it's a scary world out there.  What can you do if someone pulls a gun on you?  IMHO, not much, except cooperate and/or run, or if you think the guy will shoot you anyway, fight back as a last resort.  But even having a gun yourself could likely get you killed anyway. But when it comes to unarmed combat, there definitely are effective training methodologies to help people defend themselves against aggressive people.


----------



## Digital Matt (Dec 13, 2004)

It is a scary world, and training and preparing for violence only perpetuates it, in my view.

The reason(s) I think you are looking for a fight is because you said you aren't bothered by rednecks bullying, you, that you think it's fun.  That statement makes it sound like you welcome a chance to throw down on somebody and prove how tough you are.  I also think the fact that you have so many stories of fights or near fights is a pretty clear indication.  I've never been in a fight in my 28 years.  It doesn't mean I don't stand up for myself.  When necessary I will.  It's not often necessary or worth it, if there is no conceivable positive outcome.

I have a friend who gets in fights all the time.  Why?  He wants to.  He's an angry guy. (I'm not comparing you to him, just giving an example.  I don't know you at all) He's depressed, he thinks being tough and not taking any bs from anyone makes him look cool, and attractive to others.  Since he doesn't like himself, he can't handle when anyone else doesn't like him and has something to say.  To me, that kind of behaviour is childish.  I've been in a lot of those same situations he was in, and his turned into a fight, and mine didn't go past 1 or 2 words.

If you go out with an attitude of, "I'm ready for a fight, I can handle myself, nobody will mess with me", people can read it on your face, your stance, your body language, and similar minded people will start stuff.  They don't see that body language from me.  Whether you think that makes me a target or not, I don't care.  I will never regret my attitude or thoughts on fighting.  If someone wants to stab me in the back while I'm walking away, that's human nature.  I can't help that, no more than I can stop myself from getting hit by a bus. 

I've already been dead twice, and I'm not back on this earth to be wasting my time worrying about defending myself, or learning to fight.  I'm more interested in learning to love.


----------



## voodoocat (Dec 13, 2004)

What the hell is fun about going through life giving a **** about dealing  with some random punk that would require you to know martial arts?  I started martial arts looking at all the positives, including defending myself.   Perhaps in my head I was some hero for the babe at the bar... but realized, you pretty much have to be actively looking for a fight to ever get in one as an adult.  I haven't had a single confrontation where I felt the only way out was to "stick up my dukes"  (since the 7th grade)  More times than not, knowing any martial art does nothing for you in a gun fight.  

It's only a scary world out there if you make it that way.  You can't change the winds but you can adjust the sails.  Worrying about a hurricane will get you nowhere.  

It's obvious in this thread that people have different opinions of what martial arts really is.  If you're interested in fighting in a cage go with BJJ.  Otherwise, keep an open mind and you will find what is right for you.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> It is a scary world, and training and preparing for violence only perpetuates it, in my view.



Then why are you on this thread?  It's a thread asking about training in martial arts. Are you here just to argue?  




			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> The reason(s) I think you are looking for a fight is because you said you aren't bothered by rednecks bullying, you, that you think it's fun.



Yes, I did - but you said I "look" for fights. I don't, not even close. But YES I will definitely not walk away when confronted; again, that's a difference between us.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I also think the fact that you have so many stories of fights or near fights is a pretty clear indication.



Not sure how you figured that...



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> He's depressed, he thinks being tough and not taking any bs from anyone makes him look cool, and attractive to others



So do you think that if someone enjoys fighting they're angry and depressed?  You should listen to an interview from guys like Randy Cotoure, Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie and Matt Hughes. They're some of the nicest, soft-spoken people in the world.  I visited Renzo's school up in NYC a few years ago when I was on a business trip and he was an cinredibly nice guy; yet one of the best fighters in the world in his prime.  So, I think saying if you enjoy fighting you're messed up or something is just a silly theory.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Since he doesn't like himself, he can't handle when anyone else doesn't like him and has something to say.  To me, that kind of behaviour is childish.  I've been in a lot of those same situations he was in, and his turned into a fight, and mine didn't go past 1 or 2 words.



Sorry, but I wouldn't let someone get in my face and start saying bad things to me.  You choose to, but please don't act like you're better than me because I refuse to do the same, or say things like I'm "acting tough."  I told you I respected your decisions, you should mine as well.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> If you go out with an attitude of, "I'm ready for a fight, I can handle myself, nobody will mess with me", people can read it on your face, your stance, your body language, and similar minded people will start stuff.



That is absolutely untrue. In fact, the opposite is true. If you go out and look weak, you're most likely to get picked on. That's a fact. bullies feed on weakness and fear.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I will never regret my attitude or thoughts on fighting.



That's great, I respect that.  I don't regret my thoughts on it either.



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I've already been dead twice, and I'm not back on this earth to be wasting my time worrying about defending myself, or learning to fight.



That's great, again I hope you can always talk yourself out of every situation with every person who might ever attack you.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 13, 2004)

voodoocat said:
			
		

> you pretty much have to be actively looking for a fight to ever get in one as an adult.



Lol, I'm sorry, but that is completely untrue.  Absolutely, it is untrue. Those people in high school who were bullies didn't disappear when they turned 18.




			
				voodoocat said:
			
		

> It's only a scary world out there if you make it that way.



Really?  How do you figure that? Is crime just an "imagined" phenomenon?  No, it's real. You just ahven't had to encounter it yet. I hope you don't. But you and I are chosing different paths to dealing with it when it does.



			
				voodoocat said:
			
		

> If you're interested in fighting in a cage go with BJJ.



Or if you're interested in learning the best self defense sysetm in the world today that has been proven over and over again to be highly, highly effective.


----------



## voodoocat (Dec 13, 2004)

I really have no interest in explaining why I choose not to live in fear of something I've been told exists by someone on the internets or anywhere else.  It wouldn't matter anyway.  I've seen enough debates about bjj being the BESTEST MARTIAL ART EVAR!!! OMG!!  r0x!  to realize it's wasted typing. 

There's a difference between being confident and proud asshole.   The confident people are enjoying life while the proud assholes are fighting each other.


----------



## steve817 (Dec 14, 2004)

MD if you mainly looking for an education in ass kicking (aka self defense wink wink) look into Krav Maga. Here is a link to tell you a little bit more about it.

http://www.martial-way.com/kravmaga.html


----------



## Digital Matt (Dec 14, 2004)

I agree with Voodoo.  Well said.  I'll make a few last comments, then I'll leave this thread, since you think I'm only here to argue.  

This is a forum, and any topic you start or reply to is open to debate.  My original comment was for the creator of this thread, MD, and it was only meant to share my view on this subject.  It never hurts to hear someone elses point of view.

I'm not going to reply to everything you said, because I can see it's getting us nowhere.  The medium of the internet is obviously not translating my meaning to you.

For the record, I don't let people get in my face and say bad things.  People don't get in my face, period.  It's happened about twice in the last 20 years.  I stood up for myself, said what I had to say, and walked away.  Other than that, it doesn't happen, and Like voodoocat said perfectely, I'm not going to live in fear of some danger you say exists to me.


----------



## John E. (Dec 14, 2004)

Every martial art instructor I have known have always preached fighting as a last resort. In all my mature years thus far I have been able to talk to my way out of trouble. 

The brain is the most powerfull self defence tool,  if used properly.

Getting back to MD's original question: If you are looking for a good cardiovascular work out then a hard style would suit your needs. Some schools offer a mix of hard and soft such as Karate/Jui Jitsu.  I like a good mix. Sparring is a hoot,  some schools  emphasize it, some don't.

 You will get out of it what you put in.. Nothing is free and easy. Takes years of practice,  $$$$ and commitment.Go to classes at least 2 to 3 times a week You have to be able to practice/strech  on your  own time. Be humilated constantly because in the beginning you will be and look very awkward.The teacher and other students will constantly  correct  you.  Bottom line: if you are unwilling or unable to do any of the above you  are just wasting your time and money.

Every student in the arts at least in the beginning believe that their's is the best art. Years later most learn to appreaciate the other arts. Looking back I would have liked to have taken Akido. I got a kick out of watching the instructor of 4foot nothing toosing 6footers around.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 14, 2004)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> This is a forum, and any topic you start or reply to is open to debate.



But each member can choose what they wish to debate about... 



			
				Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Other than that, it doesn't happen, and Like voodoocat said perfectely, I'm not going to live in fear of some danger you say exists to me.



I don't live in fear; quite the opposite, that' swhy I train, so I don't have to live in fear.  I know I can handle myself in "most" situations.  Take care and good luck.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 14, 2004)

Cruzin said:
			
		

> The brain is the most powerfull self defence tool,  if used properly.



That's true, but there are two brains involved, yours and the perpetrator's, don't forget that; many times people don't care to reason with you, they're just looking for trouble.  Here's an example.

ANOTHER STORY!  Lol

I was in a theatre once, but this was years ago in Tulsa when I was young, long before I ever did any training.  This guy, about 4 years my senior and a fair amount larger, dropped something in the isle next to me.  He and some freinds were acting like idiots and being loud like we've all seen people do in movie theatres. Anyway, he said "did you see where my ticket fell?" I nicely said "I think it's over there" pointing to where it fell, way way from me. Believe it or not, he looked at me and said "Well go pick it up!" I just looked at him and said "Pick it up yourself."  Like a typical bully, he was shocked and left me alone.

The moral of that is, you can literally be doing NOTHING wrong, and people will mess with you for no reason at all.  Some would have chosen to pick up his ticket, hand it to him and say "here you go, Sir!"  Not I.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Getting back to MD's original question: If you are looking for a good cardiovascular work out then a hard style would suit your needs. Some schools offer a mix of hard and soft such as Karate/Jui Jitsu.  I like a good mix. Sparring is a hoot,  some schools  emphasize it, some don't.



MD already mentioned that he wasn't interested in that, he is interested in true self defense.  And instead of Karate for a hard art he should try Muay Thai IMHO.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> You will get out of it what you put in.. Nothing is free and easy. Takes years of practice,  $$$$ and commitment.Go to classes at least 2 to 3 times a week You have to be able to practice/strech  on your  own time. Be humilated constantly because in the beginning you will be and look very awkward.The teacher and other students will constantly  correct  you.  Bottom line: if you are unwilling or unable to do any of the above you  are just wasting your time and money.



Cruizin', those are absolutely excellent and very true words!  I reiterate back to words I"ve heard women speak when pondering taking classes: "I don't want to spar with a bunch of sweaty guys!" or "That looks too difficult."  The stronger the wind, the stronger the trees.  

I'm not bragging, but most people would be amazed, compared to a beginner that is, at what I'm capable of.  Most beginners who come in "off the streets" are passing out after about 10min of sparring. In our advanced class we typically sparr HARD for about 35-40min. I also run about 6 miles a week (not jog, run, around 7mph), using proper technique I've lifted guys 300# off the ground, I can bench press about 300# (and I weigh 180#), I curl with 45's and I can sprint MUCH faster than my wife's younger brother who is 21 and wrestled for 10 years.  But guess what?  DId that happen overnight?  LOL! Hardly. When I first started training again after watching UFC 7 I weighed 206# I was "pudgy" and in terible health (cholesterol etc) It took about a year to get to a somewhat normal body weight for me, and I've been climbing ever since. I feel fantastic, at 34 I'm in better shape than most athletic 19 year olds. I would say that I'm in better overall shape that most college athletes, with the exception of a college wrestler. Really, the only issues I have with age are recovery time when I get injured.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Every student in the arts at least in the beginning believe that their's is the best art. Years later most learn to appreaciate the other arts.



Well, that part of your post I have to disagree with.  I once asked my Muay Thai instructor, remember, a 6 time world champion, a guy feared and respected by everyone in this area who is into martial arts, who has trained some famous people, what he thought of "side kicks" used in tae kwon do. He just laughed and said it was bullshit and that kicks in karate and tkd didn't work.  This is a guy who has been in martial arts all his life.  I didn't get the impression from that statement that he had much respect for those arts, because they simply do not work in most situations, as PROVEN by events like the UFC and pride.

As well, you can watch UFC's and see Royce talking about how superior BJJ is to all other styles.  Bruce Lee said Kata was silly. These people don't have much respect for arts that don't work and rely on mystique to take people's money. In fact, the Gracie family actually put the ufc's together in the first place to prove that their art IS the best! That's a fact, nothing to debate there. And these are some of the best martial artists in the whole world. Heck, the Gracies basically CREATED their own style.



			
				Cruzin said:
			
		

> Looking back I would have liked to have taken Akido. I got a kick out of watching the instructor of 4foot nothing toosing 6footers around.



That's great and all, but realize that was in a classroom environment.  I took aikido years ago, and I can guarantee you, it would never work on a resisting opponent.  I point again to the story of "JUdo" Gene Labell choking steven segal out on the set because he challenged Gene and was being a real jerk and yelling at people. You can read about the story on Gene's site.

I haven no problem with studying martial arts such as aikido, tai chi etc. for reasons like fulfillment, exercise, relaxation etc.  But I do have a problem with them givin gpeople the impression they can get a black belt in it and go out and whip up on Shaq.

One more quick story... 

I had been training at a really poor grappling school in Tulsa for about 5 months when I had an argument with an instructor of "kook sul won" about grappling vs. striking. I was fired up after watching ufc's where grapplers were walking through strikers, back when "pure" arts still existed (now it's called "mixed" because everyone trains in grappling and striking). This guy, in typical "traditional martial arts" fashion, was highly arrogant.  So we sparred one day at his school. This guy was also HUGE, about 6'3 and 240, and in pretty good shape.  We started standing, and I took him down fairly quickly, and I had never wrestled in my life and had only been grappling a short time, and not at a good school.  He was very suprised at that. I told him most fights go to the ground. He didn't want to show it, but his view on martial arts changed that day.

Cruizin', if you want to see a "real" testament to size vs. technique, just look at this pic of Royce and his next opponent, "akebono"  The martial arts community owes Royce and his whole family an enormous amount of grattitude, not only for bringing their art to America, but by creating the original UFC events and showing us all what arts work, and what arts do not.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 14, 2004)

steve817 said:
			
		

> MD if you mainly looking for an education in ass kicking (aka self defense wink wink) look into Krav Maga. Here is a link to tell you a little bit more about it.
> 
> http://www.martial-way.com/kravmaga.html



STEVE! I just noticed you live in Arlington...  :shock:  :shock: 

I'll send you a PM...


----------



## Luminosity (Dec 14, 2004)

All those years that I trained my backside off ( and yes , sparred 'til I was drippin sweat with 'sweaty guys ' ) and reached what I thought was an achievement by earning my black belt ........
and it turns out I have a black belt in 'fluff'  ? 

I'm sure MT and BJJ are fantastic martial arts , I'd be open to training in them....but , is knocking &amp; discrediting other martial arts and the people who train in them , necessary ? 

As Cruzin pointed out quite rightly , the centre of self defence is your MIND. You can train every day , in any of the martial arts , but if your mind isnt in the right place then you're focusing entirely on the wrong points. When I was doing my black belt grading I had to break through boards at different points around me. I worked my way around , breakin each one by focusing on getting my hand or foot BEHIND the board. Lost my concentration on the last board and yes my hand bounced straight off it. It might not be a great example of the importance of training your mind in self defence but it'll do for now....
I guess I'm sayin , if you go into any martial art without setting your mind to be dedicated and to learn/train hard , then it doesnt matter if you do MT , BJJ or Taekwondo or Origami . I started Taek as a 10 year old and I didnt believe in anyone goin easy on me just because I was a kid AND a female. By the age of 13 I was sparring with grown men ( I preferred sparring with them coz I could go harder on em without worryin about hurtin em ).
I've only had to use it once , on the streets. I was being goaded by a group of girls for at least an hour before one finally ran at me and my leg shot out in a high front kick and caught her in the chin.
Would I go well in a fight against you Tracy ? Probably not because I havent trained in YEARS. But if i was still doin Taek , I tell ya what ... both of us would get bumps and bruises 
Its more about the person , not the art.


----------



## Bokeh (Dec 14, 2004)

Hi! Welcome to the thread.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> All those years that I trained my backside off ( and yes , sparred 'til I was drippin sweat with 'sweaty guys ' ) and reached what I thought was an achievement by earning my black belt ........
> and it turns out I have a black belt in 'fluff'  ?



Unfortunately, yes.  I'm sorry if that's blunt, but it's pretty much been proven. I point back to my recent post about the TKD couple where the wife used to win "in class" but when it came time for a real fight, it was all over for her.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I'm sure MT and BJJ are fantastic martial arts , I'd be open to training in them....but , is knocking &amp; discrediting other martial arts and the people who train in them , necessary ?



Again I try and be as respectful as I can while at the same time speaking from knowledge and experience.  Believe me, I'm tame compared to a lot of people I know when it comes to opinions on arts like TKD and karate.  

What I would say is this: It is necessary to find out which arts work, and which ones don't, because I would hate to see someone get overconfident in an art think they can handle themselves when they cannot.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> As Cruzin pointed out quite rightly , the centre of self defence is your MIND.



Tank Abbott would disagree with you. He would say that has nothing to do with it, and would proceed to pound on you. That's just reality. He did it to many black belts in the early UFC's. I'm only the messenger here!! That's reality guys, sorry.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I worked my way around , breakin each one by focusing on getting my hand or foot BEHIND the board. Lost my concentration on the last board and yes my hand bounced straight off it. It might not be a great example of the importance of training your mind in self defence but it'll do for now....



Breaking boards and bricks adds absolutely no value to self defense training - zero.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I guess I'm sayin , if you go into any martial art without setting your mind to be dedicated and to learn/train hard , then it doesnt matter if you do MT , BJJ or Taekwondo or Origami .



I disagree, and so do the top martial artists in the world, including Bruce Lee, who many consider to be one of the greatest of all time.  Chuck Norris, who learned all his grappling from MY instructor, said himself that BJJ was the real deal and perhaps the best martial art.  BTW, my instructor and his brothers were on "Walker, TeXas Ranger" during several episodes.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I started Taek as a 10 year old and I didnt believe in anyone goin easy on me just because I was a kid AND a female.



Lumi, for that, I really admire you.  I often see females in class who expect to have people "go easy" on them. When I go with girls, I go HARD.  One of our top students is a female who has been training for about 10 years. She's a black belt now (it takes about 6 years to get one in BJJ).  The only "treatment" I give women when I go with them is I try and make sure I don't touch their "parts."  I've yet to do that once as far as I know.  

But, realize this.  She has been training MUCH, much longer than I, and is much higher ranked, yet she has only beaten me once.  Usually we go round and round for a long time, but I'm so much stronger that helps make up for a lot IMHO. Now, against someone who "knew nothing" about martial arts she would completely DESTROY them.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> By the age of 13 I was sparring with grown men ( I preferred sparring with them coz I could go harder on em without worryin about hurtin em ).



Sparring in tkd is not the same as a fight.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Would I go well in a fight against you Tracy ? Probably not because I havent trained in YEARS. But if i was still doin Taek , I tell ya what ... both of us would get bumps and bruises



Lumi, I have to give you respect for even entertaining that thought!  I've read many of your posts and I really like what I've read! Seriously. You seem like a really neat lady with a lot of gumption! I've also seen your photo, and it pleases me to see a woman of your size mentioning sparring with someone who has sparred and BEATEN guys 6'7" and 250#.  You're the schiznit! On the other hand, there are guys out there you might run across in the streets who would be more than willing to attack a woman... so be careful. Temper your bravery with realism.




			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Its more about the person , not the art.



Well, I think it's been proven that that is NOT the case and, in fact the art has a LOT to do with it.  If you took two OLYMPIC level athletes, one of them a wrestler, and the other a TKD or Karate person, and you squared the two off in a "real" fight, Lumi, I can almost guarantee you, as much as I'm breathing while I type this, that the wrestler would win at LEAST 95% of the time. Why? It's simple:

*You can't throw punches and kicks when someone puts you on your back.* 

As well, the takedown very well may kill you on the way, esp. if it's on concrete. Forget about "professional" wrestling, that's garbage, but things like body slams and suplex are actually taken from real wrestling. I watched a UFC once where a guy was suplexed.  He barely continued the match; had that been concerte, it would have been all over for him - permenantly.

BTW, where do you live in Australia?  Do you know where this school is?

http://www.elvissinosic.com/


----------



## Luminosity (Dec 15, 2004)

Bokeh said:
			
		

> Hi! Welcome to the thread.



Thank you  



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I worked my way around , breakin each one by focusing on getting my hand or foot BEHIND the board. Lost my concentration on the last board and yes my hand bounced straight off it. It might not be a great example of the importance of training your mind in self defence but it'll do for now....





			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> Breaking boards and bricks adds absolutely no value to self defense training - zero.



Tracy , with all due respect , I was merely pointing to the board-breaking as an example of the power of the mind vs physical aspect. I was not claiming board ( or brick ) breaking as a valuable self-defence skill.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I guess I'm sayin , if you go into any martial art without setting your mind to be dedicated and to learn/train hard , then it doesnt matter if you do MT , BJJ or Taekwondo or Origami .





			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> I disagree, and so do the top martial artists in the world, including *Bruce Lee*, who many consider to be one of the greatest of all time.  Chuck Norris, who learned all his grappling from MY instructor, said himself that BJJ was the real deal and perhaps the best martial art.  BTW, my instructor and his brothers were on "Walker, TeXas Ranger" during several episodes.



If I am not mistaken ( and apologies if I am ) Bruce Lee  ( who I *greatly* admire as an individual for his life values , philosophy and dedication ) was not totally 'against ' and saw *some* good attributes to Taekwondo .......

_" Bruce Lee was always receptive to new techniques. When Jhoon Rhee, a taekwondo expert, taught Lee the sidekick, he quickly mastered it, including this in his JKD repertoire. Before, he used only low kicks to the legs, since wing chun has no high kicks. But after meeting Chuck Norris, he included high kicks too "_



			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> Sparring in tkd is not the same as a fight.



Again , Tracy  , I didnt claim sparring in Taek to be the same as a 'fight'.....
I was alluding to one of your comments regarding a lot of women ( and yes there *are* a lot of women out there like this ) who are unwilling / shy away from 'sparring with sweaty big guys '. 
I was pointing out there *are* women , like myself , who not only *WANT* to spar with men but *prefer* to spar with men. 
When I was training I was bored and unchallenged ( unfortunately ) with training amongst kids my own age and females .....as I was too concious of hurting them.... 
With guys I could really give them grunt and let loose with as much power and force as I had in me. And even for a young'in ( at the time ) I was like a male in the aspect of packin some force .........
If the guy opposing me formed the initial idea in his head that he could take it easy coz he had a young female fightin him.... he quickly learned this young female could pack a punch and a kick and a few guys copped a whallop or two before they realized *NOT* to be so presumptuous.
If they learned a lesson from that then awesome , because it *is* a valuable lesson.....
For this my instructor/mentor respected me , saw a quality in me that he liked and took me under his wing. 
He saw potential in me ( in the Olympic arena *and* as a future instructor ). 
I started to instruct the juniors before I got my black belt.... and I tell ya what , if I have any kids one day .... they're ALL goin to learn a martial art ( whichever martial art that may be ) because I'd want my kids to learn how to physically take care of themselves AND the many philosophies with martial art in general ......
Regretably , on my part , I stopped Taek for a few various , personal /home-problem reasons. 
I am sorry for this , in so many ways , today but ..... never to late to jump back into it.
Tracy , I guess , for the sake of arguement here , what I would appreciate is not feelin undermined for my stance in supporting a martial art that doesnt fall into your category as 'the best '. It comes down to the individual and what they value and gain from self-defence training. I dont claim Taekwondo is 'the best' ....simply that  *does* have some value in this day and age......



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Would I go well in a fight against you Tracy ? Probably not because I havent trained in YEARS. But if i was still doin Taek , I tell ya what ... both of us would get bumps and bruises





			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> Lumi, I have to give you respect for even entertaining that thought! On the other hand, there are guys out there you might run across in the streets who would be more than willing to attack a woman... so be careful. Temper your bravery with realism.



With all due respect ( again ) I am not *all* bluster and wind , Tracy . 
I *am* realistic more then brave. 
One thing I learnt from my very first mentor ( a mentor aside from family ) Martin Hall ( my instructor )  was to *never* underestimate anyone *or* any situation.
And this is a lesson I take with me throughout my life.
As much as it may seem as I am flexin cyber muscle , Tracy....I have enough faith in myself to know that if I seriously entrenched myself back into martial art training ( which , as soon as I am settled in one place for awhile , I will do so ) and threw my heart and soul into it in the way I did 'way back when..... ' .....Well , if I didnt beat you the first fight 'round.......I would give you a *hell* of a fight and hurt ya enough to garner your respect ..... 
*THEN* I would mentally take note of all your weak points , train up again and come back again and again ( as many times as it took ) 'til I did beat ya. 
Female /size issues aside. With me it means shite .... and *so it should.....*
Yeah I'm this blonde , not tall or fearsome at all , girly .....*but* i'll surprise the fook outta ya if ya angered me enough on the street......and if ya dared attack me ..... trust me when I say my ( controlled ) anger will hit ya like a tonne of bricks..........
Which is my point. 
The heart and mind is a powerful force , yes the martial art is important but ......if ya dont have the strength and determination and dedication up here ( taps head and heart ) then the martial art itself falls by the wayside , weakened. Its merely an art/self defence  ... 
The person channelling it is the key.

You definately seem to be an intelligent man. Please dont think I am disrespectful or flippant towards you in any way by anything I have said so far. A lot of your points are valid throughout this thread.....



			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> BTW, where do you live in Australia?  Do you know where this school is?



http://www.elvissinosic.com/[/quote]

I am in Melbourne , Victoria. I havent yet checked that link but I shall :sillysmi:

Matt , hon , you have some good advice here already.
Do the research of all the schools in your area and try a few different martial arts out for yourself , and find the one that fits *you*. Its not whats gonna thrash the livin shite outta someone in a tournament...find the martial art and school that ya love and know you will dedicate yourself to and go in 150 %.  Definately look for good schools that teach MT and BJJ .... Bokeh seems to know what he is talkin about in this area so its worth pursuing. 
Ya cant lose hon because , if ya find a good school and instructor that can mentor you in the right ways ... then you'll be on top physically *and* mentally.....


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## Bokeh (Dec 15, 2004)

Hi Lumi,



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I was alluding to one of your comments regarding a lot of women ( and yes there *are* a lot of women out there like this ) who are unwilling / shy away from 'sparring with sweaty big guys '.
> I was pointing out there *are* women , like myself , who not only *WANT* to spar with men but *prefer* to spar with men.
> When I was training I was bored and unchallenged ( unfortunately ) with training amongst kids my own age and females .....as I was too concious of hurting them....



Based on what you've said here, you seem to have a lot of heart (when people say "heart" in martial arts they mean the "Fight in the dog" not like "you're a nice person). You're a lot like me; as a younger person you spent a lot of time learning an ineffective art. I wish I could have all that time back, and I wish the stuff I train in now was here in America when I was that age.  Oh, how I wish. I envy younger guys who just show up in class and take it for granted. THey don't realize, this stuff wasn't even around 10 years ago.

Another quick story.  I used to watch a guy named Rafael Lavato "jr" when he was about 17 compete in many tournaments here in the DFW area. 






I've done videography and photography for his Dad's tournaments (they both run a school in Oklahoma, they're both really nice guys. Anyway he used to be this skinny little kid competing in the kids division. The guy was incredibly dedicated, kinda like you mentioned you were.   Now, he could beat most guys in my own school, he's like 6'2 and 220, and has competed in various parts of the world.  I envy him so much, because he's only like 19 years old.  but like you said, it's never too late for a person to get back into it,.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> With guys I could really give them grunt and let loose with as much power and force as I had in me.



With grappling, you go 100% all the time, regardless of who you're going against. Again I've rolled with many women ,and if they're my rank or more, I cut them no slack. I consider it a disservice to their training to do so.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> And even for a young'in ( at the time ) I was like a male in the aspect of packin some force .........



Well, that would "more than likely" not be the case in a "real" situation.  As an adult, "all things being equal," a man who is attacking a woman in a self defense situation in real life will likely be far bigger and stronger.  That's just nature.  You have to use technique to overcome someone like that. BJJ technique is based on leverage. You could spend 3 months in BJJ and know enough technique to choke out MIke Tyson, or pop his knee or ankle, or even break his arm. Lumi, if you trained for 10 years in TKD, do you think that you would last 5min with Mike Tyson? Answer that honestly.

I read an article about 5 years ago where a guy was attacking a woman in her car.  She had taken some BJJ and the guy, like most people would do who are clueless, fell right into what's called a "Triangle choke" and she choked him unconscious and called the cops.  I don't think most arts like tkd, karate and aikido would have been effective inside a car.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> If the guy opposing me formed the initial idea in his head that he could take it easy coz he had a young female fightin him.... he quickly learned this young female could pack a punch and a kick and a few guys



That's a good point, in martial arts it's known as the "element of suprise."  And yes, it's an advantage you would have over an attacker. How much of an advantage depends on how determined he was. I personally doubt it woul dhelp you much against a guy like Tank if he was dead set on attacking you for whatever reason.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Tracy , I guess , for the sake of arguement here , what I would appreciate is not feelin undermined for my stance in supporting a martial art that doesnt fall into your category as 'the best '.



It's not "my" category.  As I've said 100 times on this thread, it's been proven in combat that arts like tkd and karate don't work.  I'm jus the messenger, but not suprisingly, no one wants to listen. IMO it's because they've invested a lot of time in learning an art that has been proven to be ineffective.  I will say, kata is worthless.  But many people have said that even simple things like punching and kicking that you learn in TKD and karate you have to actually *un*learn when you take something like Muay Thai because the kicks are not the proper way to kick and punches are not the proper way to punch.  There have been many cases where a TKD fighter has challenged a Muay THai fighter and, at leas tin ever single one I've ever seen, has lost BAD, like, humiliating bad.

One question is, "Isn't TKD/karate 'better than nothing' in a real situation?"  I would say, it could be, but it might cause more harm than good.  If you'r eused to "high risk" moves like head kicks and stuff in class, and you try that on concrete and slip, you're in BIG trouble.  IF YOU DON'T KNO WHOW TO GRAPPLE, you're in BIG trouble, unless you "happen" to KO a person right away, the fight will likely land on the ground, esp. if it's a man attacking a woman.

As well, as mentioned before, if you do ever take an art like Muay Thai, you will have to "un" learn many of the techniques you were taught. That's sometimes quite frustrating and takes a lot of time, kind of like learning to type the right way after doing "hunt and peck" for years.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> It comes down to the individual



I disagree with that. "All things being equal" yes it comes down to the individual. But again if you took the best wrestler or BJJ guy in the world and put him against the very best TKD or karate guy, I'm afraid that probably 95% of the time, the tkd/karate/aikido/kung fu/whatever guy would get completely destroyed, and that's been proven by events like the UFC and Pride where grapplers with no striking experience who hit like wimps entered and dominated.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Well , if I didnt beat you the first fight 'round.......I would give you a *hell* of a fight and hurt ya enough to garner your respect .....



Do I think I would destroy you if we sparred, even if we had equal amounts of trianing? Yes, becaues I've beaten women with MORE experience and training than me. That's just the way it is, the closer you get in experience the more things like size and strength matter.  Again, I'm not a beginner. But would I respect you? Based on what you've said on this thread, I *already do.*



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> *THEN* I would mentally take note of all your weak points , train up again and come back again and again ( as many times as it took ) 'til I did beat ya.



Ok, I'll take your word for it 



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> You definately seem to be an intelligent man. Please dont think I am disrespectful or flippant towards you in any way by anything I have said so far. A lot of your points are valid throughout this thread.....



I think we're discussing this just fine... I dobt I'll change your mind, but if I can at least get you talking to people about the current state of martial arts ,maybe you'll believe someone else.  Hopefully Elvis' place is close to you and you go and watch a few classes. I've watched his partner "Anthony" competein many, many tournaments when he was training here in Dallas.  He's PHEONMENAL.  But alas, I'm not familar with Australia though, they could be hundreds of miles from you. I think they're in Sydney. But check out his site and see.  

Take care


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## Nikon Fan (Dec 15, 2004)

Good gravy...how did I look over all this!!!  Okay so missed to much of it to catch up now, but I took Tae Kwon Do when I was in middle school...just for fun and excercise purposes and nothing more!  It was fun, but that's it.  
IMO I agree with you Digital Matt!!! Seems pointless to kick someone's butt just to show you can, teaches them more when you are "man" enough to walk away!  Buuuuuuuuuutttttttt, I don't want to argue the  topic, only wanted to state an opinion.


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## Bokeh (Dec 15, 2004)

eromallagadnama said:
			
		

> IMO I agree with you Digital Matt!!! Seems pointless to kick someone's butt just to show you can, teaches them more when you are "man" enough to walk away!  .



It does? I doubt it would teach many guys who would start something with you you are more of a man to walk away. At best it would make you feel better, not them.  And that's fine.  But at worst, it could turn a bully into a worse bully and make other people fear him, and cause future people to get picked on even more.

Again, we're all choosing different ways to deal with the same situation. And that's ok! To each his own... take care


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## Corry (Dec 15, 2004)

Bokeh said:
			
		

> eromallagadnama said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course walking away will make you feel better...who the hell cares if it makes them feel better?  When you walk away, the point is not to make the bully feel better.  The point is to show him/her that starting a fight with you isn't going to get them anywhere.  

Tracy, you are taking a lot of peoples words out of context, rather than what the poster actually meant by it.  Please read a little more carefully before you tell someone they are wrong wrong wrong.


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## Bokeh (Dec 15, 2004)

core_17 said:
			
		

> Of course walking away will make you feel better....



Not me... I would argue that it doesn't always.  In some cases, sure, but I wouldn't say "Of course." 

Some guy I trained with but barely knew, back in Tulsa, said to me when we were talking after class,  "I'm scarred from walking away from bullies as a youngster, and I'll never do it again."


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## Luminosity (Dec 16, 2004)

Bokeh said:
			
		

> Again I've rolled with many women ,and if they're my rank or more, I cut them no slack. *I consider it a disservice to their training to do so.*



My sentiments exactly.... men do women absolutely *no* favours in this area by goin easy on them




			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> Lumi, if you trained for 10 years in TKD, do you think that you would last 5min with Mike Tyson? Answer that honestly.



Honestly .... Mike Tyson ...?  Holy hell,  no :LOL: 




			
				Bokeh said:
			
		

> I've watched his partner "Anthony" competein many, many tournaments when he was training here in Dallas.  He's PHEONMENAL.



I noticed you said "Anthony" so I'm presuming this is not his real name perhaps ....what about surname ? Just curious as to whether I've heard of/know him .....

Actually Tracy , a lot of what you've said here has given me food for thought. I have been considering rejoining the Taek world but have been eyeing other styles .... without takin any time to learn about any of them. From what you've said about MT and BJJ I *am* very interested in learning either ( or both ).
My b/f took a look at this thread and agreed with ya ....We were discussin it at lunchtime and he said that ya seemed to know ya s***  , for what its worth. 
I forget which styles he has trained in ( will ask him again ) ....I know that he did a lot of wrestling as well , though.

And as far as 'the better man walks away ' goes .... thats all well and good *but* I am of the same opinion that sometimes ppl dont *let* ya walk away ....
Its akin to insuring your home /valuables ... you might never need it but its good to have. 
No one is telling anyone here to 'live in fear of 'IF'S' happening ' .... hopefully you will *never* find yourselves in any situation where you are attacked /assaulted etc. Or where you have to come to the aid of a family member/friend. 
Ya in a win-win situation by knowing how to defend yourseves ( or loved ones ) , even if ya never have to utilise it against an attacker,  the fitness /emotional/mental benefits are fantastic.


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## Hertz van Rental (Dec 16, 2004)

Ooops! I thought the title of this thread was 'Marital Arts'. Don't think I'm far wrong, though.
And I've got a black belt in Origami (no piece of paper is safe) so there


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## Bokeh (Dec 16, 2004)

Hi-ya!



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> My sentiments exactly.... men do women absolutely *no* favours in this area by goin easy on them



Yes, I'm there to assist other people as well as myself in the leanring process.  Cutting a woman, or a small guy for that matter, slack, is only hurting them. Now obviously I take it easy on people with lesser experience though. I'm not there kill the noobiez   LIke I said, based just on what you've said here, I can believe that you were/would be very good at martial arts. You seem to have heart and will, and spunk also.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Honestly .... Mike Tyson ...?  Holy hell,  no :LOL:



LOL, yeah don't get me wrong, with all the training I have I'd have to be paid BIG bucks to fight that guy. But my point was, I'd much rather do it with th etraining I do have than many other arts because I know that, "if" it went the right way, I could take him out in many, many different ways. I could also get my head knocked off along the way though; but, you can't just give up you have to do your best. I thin kin this area, grappling is even better for women than men, because again typically a man attacking a woman DOES grapple with her, hence playing right into her game.




			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I noticed you said "Anthony" so I'm presuming this is not his real name perhaps ....what about surname ? Just curious as to whether I've heard of/know him .....



HIs last name is "Perosh." There are a few pics of him on Elvis' site.  I watched him compete many times in this area. It got to the point where he didn't have much competition around here and started going to other states. Eventually he moved back to Australia, and now he and Elvis have a school together. Elvis btw has been on TV many times in PPV events as a fighter; he event fought for the light heavyweight UFC title. He's beaten some very good people.  He eventually got mauled by Tito Ortiz, but TIto was much bigger in that fight. Elvis is serious good.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> Actually Tracy , a lot of what you've said here has given me food for thought. I have been considering rejoining the Taek world but have been eyeing other styles .... without takin any time to learn about any of them. From what you've said about MT and BJJ I *am* very interested in learning either ( or both ).
> My b/f took a look at this thread and agreed with ya ....We were discussin it at lunchtime and he said that ya seemed to know ya s***  , for what its worth.



Thanks.  I look at it like, hey, things have just evolved since you and I took TKD. No biggy.  The only thing is, like I mentioned, I sure wish I was doing this stuff at 19 instead of 34  



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> I forget which styles he has trained in ( will ask him again ) ....I know that he did a lot of wrestling as well , though.



I once heard a guy say about wrestling, "Wrestling IS a martial art." Meaning, people look at it as a pure sport.  Yes, it's definitely a asport, but there are MANY, many aspects of it that are very applicable to self defense.  If you take a guy down and control him in a real situation, or certainly if you slam the guy, take him down etc., it's OVER.  And believe me, at your size, if you used proper technique, you would likely AMAZE yourself at how big of a person you could lift off the ground - and it only takes a few millimeters between their feet and the ground and they'r ein big trouble.

As a quick story... I trained in Tulsa for a while with Mikey Burnett (famous guy, just google his name). I'll never, ever forget this.  There was a guy that had been doing Judo for years (which everyone does consider a martial art, and it IS a good one BTW). Mikey wrestled a lot in high school and college so he knew a lot of wrestlers (not to mention Oklahoma is historicaly the top 3 states for it in the US). So one day one of his buddies comes in who wrestled in college.  He and the Judo guy (Judo being known for throw) square off and the wrestler shoots in on him, gets a "double-leg" and of course the Judo guy defends. The wrestler guy then lifts him up and turns him, and slams the guy right on his shoulders.  My son has wrestled and I helped coach and can tell you that probably 80% of wrestling, all they do is takedowns. They KNOW how to get people off their feet. ANd "you can't kick and punch from your back." I have a lot of respect for wrestling.



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> And as far as 'the better man walks away ' goes .... thats all well and good *but* I am of the same opinion that sometimes ppl dont *let* ya walk away ....



Agreed, I think that's what some of the "turn the other cheek" peoeple on this thread don't realize. They just haven't wound up in that situation yet, and it will only take once. I knew a guy in high school I tried to get to train with me, but he wasn't interested much.  When a bully beat him up reeeeally bad (it was horrible, I won't get into the details) he then started... too bad he didn't start earlier. Now, if you are someone who is a pacafist like ghandi and refused to fight for philisophical reasons, I have absolutely NO problem with that at all. That's different. 



			
				Luminosity said:
			
		

> No one is telling anyone here to 'live in fear of 'IF'S' happening ' .... hopefully you will *never* find yourselves in any situation where you are attacked /assaulted etc. Or where you have to come to the aid of a family member/friend.
> Ya in a win-win situation by knowing how to defend yourseves ( or loved ones ) , even if ya never have to utilise it against an attacker,  the fitness /emotional/mental benefits are fantastic.



Completely agreed... If you take a real martial art, likely you'll be pushed hard and get fantastic physical fitness out of it.  

Normally I'm pretty good about going to class 2-3 times/week, but I was out for a week over thanksgiving, then this last week I had a sinus infection. I was kinda nervous about going to class last night, and I like being 100% when I go to class (competitiveness I guess).  I actually did great and hadn't lost any endurance. 

I'm thinking of doing the tournament in Jan 22 but I'd need to lose about 10-12lbs to be at my natural competition weight, which is tough to do with the resturaunts around here, food being the second most pleasurable thing in life.  So not sure if I will or not. Depends on how busy work is also.  

Thanks for the words and w/b/s


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