# Untrusting client? WHAT???



## Gallery29 (Nov 2, 2012)

I've been doing photography for income for about 8 months now on my own (previously worked full-time as a photographer for a large company for 3 years, doing creative work with DSLR's and having creative freedom). 

I've shot 10 weddings and am still charging about half of what people in my area usually charge, just because I feel that you can only charge that much with a certain level of wedding experience. I tell all of my clients that up front, and after seeing my work, they're very excited to be getting "such a good deal." 

I'm very transparent on Facebook, and all of my clients give me rave reviews. I've never had a complaint -- ever! Which I know will happen someday, but for reference, no one has ever expressed unhappiness about anything concerning my work, my attitude, etc.

I got a very lovely client who signed a wedding contract back about 5 months ago. I met with her in person, she reviewed my portfolio, and signed a contract on the spot. I was a little surprised by the fact that at the time, she "forgot" her checkbook and only told me AFTER she'd signed the contract. I informed her that I also take paypal and credit/debit, but she didn't have any form of payment, apparently. I, being the easy-going person that I am, agreed to save her date and meet with her the next week for a check. She followed through and gave me the SMALL deposit to save her date.

Fast forward to 3 weeks before her wedding. She texts me and asks, "I want to know HOW I know I'll be getting my pictures back from you? How can I trust you?" A little shocked, I responded back, "Well, the contract is a legally binding document." She then texts back, "I've had friends who had photographers who never gave them their pictures after they paid them a large amount of money." I apologized and said that I understand her concern and I'd like to meet with her to go over the contract again to explain everything and offered to give her some names of happy clients who would agree to talk to her (I usually form at least friendly relationships with my wedding clients). I never heard back from her. I called her, no answer. 

She text me days later asking for an electronic copy of the contract, even though she has a physical copy.

Tomorrow her balance is due (2 weeks before the wedding), and I can't get ahold of her.

I'm so confused. I've never had this happen. Anyone have any ideas? Has this ever happened to you?


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

She's nervous. I'd be willing to give her your previous clients as references if she were that worried. 
Beyond that...
First what does your contract say regarding the deposit/retainer and refunding? 
Provided that your contract is thorough and you've made sure that you have a retainer fee where you do not refund that amount I would then send  a letter with a return receipt, an email and a phone call/voice mail (ALL OF THEM) worded professionally saying that she has 5 days to pay up or you will consider her to have canceled the contract and keep the retainer fee.


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## danettechappell (Nov 2, 2012)

Wow.  Thats crazy.  But as you said, you've both entered into a legally binding contract.  So, she should know that if she does not pay you, you're no longer obligated to shoot her wedding.  However, if you'd like a little more clarification you can always contact a lawyer for a consultation on the matter.  Does your contract state that the deposit is non-refundable?


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## Gallery29 (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks for the input MLeek! My contract was composed with input from a lawyer, so it's very thorough. The deposit/retainer is non-refundable and that part is also signed. I'm a bit irritated at the fact that I already offered to give her contact information for previous clients, but she hasn't chosen to take the info or contact them! To me, it seems as though she's just a flaky person in general, being that she "forgot" all forms of payment the day she signed my contract and then couldn't meet again for another week to give me the money. 

Oh, and I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum. It's been a long day. Sorry guys!


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## Gallery29 (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, Danette, it does state quite clearly, in bold letters (and also signed) that the deposit is non-refundable for any reason.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

haven't encountered that particular scenario yet. we get a 50% non-refundable deposit on weddings/engagement shoots/whatever, with the balance typically paid BEFORE the event is shot. (although there have been some exceptions, but photos are never turned over before the balance is paid in full)

the contract is legally binding on both ends, and if that isn't enough for a client along with whatever research they have done into who they are hiring, i guess there really isn't much you can do about it. at this point, you will have to make a decision whether or not to keep their date reserved.  If they do not abide by the contract, and are unwilling to pay the balance due, i would inform them you cannot hold the date for them, and whatever deposit they put down is non refundable. (if that's what your contract states)


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## Gallery29 (Nov 2, 2012)

I have a feeling that if I do wind up shooting this wedding, she's going to be the biggest bridezilla I've encountered thus far...


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Gallery29 said:


> Yes, Danette, it does state quite clearly, in bold letters (and also signed) that the *deposit* is non-refundable for any reason.


 Does it say DEPOSIT or retainer? DEPOSIT may well not be legal. It should read retainer. This is why your contract should be at the very least reviewed by an attorney in your state.

I know that there are many places to purchase a sample contract on the internet. There's even a well known attorney/photographer who sells them. He even recommends that you have his contract reviewed by your own attorney as laws do vary from state to state.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

One more question: Are you a PPA member?


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## unpopular (Nov 2, 2012)

She may have been nervous about the wedding in general, and now the wedding is off. it could be that she was nervous that if there were no wedding, she'd be out a lot more money. It's kind of odd behavior, and might be an indication of larger problems.


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## Gallery29 (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, it says deposit. You learn something new everyday. That's why I like this forum so much. It's a very small deposit/retainer ($100), so it's not that big of a deal, but I'll change my wording to "retainer" for next time. What I'm most upset about it probably losing out on the wedding money!

No, not a member of PPA yet. I decided to wait until I do photography full-time (right now I'm a senior at LSU graduating in 5 weeks!). I plan on signing up with PPA at the beginning of 2012!  

I do understand my clients concern, to an extent. But I wouldn't have an elaborate Facebook page that I update regularly and converse freely with my existing clients if I planned on ripping someone off for a small amount (in comparison) of money. Who does that?? I don't need to create a Facebook page that I update daily or weekly to carry on a facade for FIVE months to rip someone off for a thousand bucks. Dang.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Gallery29 said:


> Yes, it says deposit. You learn something new everyday. That's why I like this forum so much. It's a very small deposit/retainer ($100), so it's not that big of a deal, but I'll change my wording to "retainer" for next time. What I'm most upset about it probably losing out on the wedding money!
> 
> No, not a member of PPA yet. I decided to wait until I do photography full-time (right now I'm a senior at LSU graduating in 5 weeks!). I plan on signing up with PPA at the beginning of 2012!
> 
> I do understand my clients concern, to an extent. But I wouldn't have an elaborate Facebook page that I update regularly and converse freely with my existing clients if I planned on ripping someone off for a small amount (in comparison) of money. Who does that?? I don't need to create a Facebook page that I update daily or weekly to carry on a facade for FIVE months to rip someone off for a thousand bucks. Dang.



Join PPA now. before you shoot this wedding. Indemnity MAY not cover this because the contract was signed before you became a member but I THINK it will-shot happened after you were a member. That way if she goes all bridezilla on  you, you do have some recourse and help. The indemnity will cover the mediation and all that neat stuff. 
If you are working professionally you have to be covered. Whether it's full time or not.


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## JackandSally (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm not going to lie, the photographer we had for our wedding screwed us.  And we were recommended to him by a good friend of ours.  He gave us all of our photos on a CD, unedited. To this day, almost 4 years later, I have yet to actually edit them.  He gave us 500 photos, 90% of them were horrible.  And there are maybe half a dozen of our wedding guests.  He didn't pose us, and the one photo where he did the posing was just ugly.  He didn't even take a photo of my father and I until we were on the way in and I said, "um?  I need a photo of my dad".  We paid quite a bit of money and I'm greatly disappointed.  There were a lot of other issues with my wedding, like someone came in and stole all our wedding cards (we're just now getting restitution for that).

I am very cautious now, getting everything in writing, whenever I use a professional photographer.  She may be being feed information from people who had bad experiences and is now getting really scared.  If you're not getting a hold of her, I'm sure it's because as the wedding gets closer she's freaking out about everything and insanely busy.  But like everyone else said, be sure to keep trying to get in contact with her.  Get everything in writing, notating every time you call/text/email.  It all will help you if something goes south.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

JackandSally said:


> I'm not going to lie, the photographer we had for our wedding screwed us.  And we were recommended to him by a good friend of ours.  He gave us all of our photos on a CD, unedited. To this day, almost 4 years later, I have yet to actually edit them.  He gave us 500 photos, 90% of them were horrible.  And there are maybe half a dozen of our wedding guests.  He didn't pose us, and the one photo where he did the posing was just ugly.  He didn't even take a photo of my father and I until we were on the way in and I said, "um?  I need a photo of my dad".  We paid quite a bit of money and I'm greatly disappointed.  There were a lot of other issues with my wedding, like someone came in and stole all our wedding cards (we're just now getting restitution for that).
> 
> I am very cautious now, getting everything in writing, whenever I use a professional photographer.  She may be being feed information from people who had bad experiences and is now getting really scared.  If you're not getting a hold of her, I'm sure it's because as the wedding gets closer she's freaking out about everything and insanely busy.  But like everyone else said, be sure to keep trying to get in contact with her.  Get everything in writing, notating every time you call/text/email.  It all will help you if something goes south.


Besides the friend did you check his references? Look at his portfolio? Did what you received match his portfolio that you approved? What was he to provide you according to your contract. There is a LOT unsaid in there that you may have recourse for (or not...)


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## JackandSally (Nov 2, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> JackandSally said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to lie, the photographer we had for our wedding screwed us.  And we were recommended to him by a good friend of ours.  He gave us all of our photos on a CD, unedited. To this day, almost 4 years later, I have yet to actually edit them.  He gave us 500 photos, 90% of them were horrible.  And there are maybe half a dozen of our wedding guests.  He didn't pose us, and the one photo where he did the posing was just ugly.  He didn't even take a photo of my father and I until we were on the way in and I said, "um?  I need a photo of my dad".  We paid quite a bit of money and I'm greatly disappointed.  There were a lot of other issues with my wedding, like someone came in and stole all our wedding cards (we're just now getting restitution for that).
> ...




I had looked at some photos in his "shop" a few years prior when he was working under a different name.  So when my friend, who owns a DJ business that does a lot of business with him, recommended him, I thought I could trust the photographer.  We never had a signed contract, it was all verbal with my husband.  In the end, it was all my fault, I as a bride, didn't protect myself.  So it was all my own fault.  I'm just upset because I spent a ton of money, and got horrible photos.  I am well aware that it was my fault, lesson learned.  When I had my girls' photos done recently, I made sure to look at the portfolio, found out exactly what I was getting, and had a contract.  Taught me well. 

By the way, any time someone is bored and feels like editing, I have a ton that I can send your way.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

This has "S**t storm written all over it!  I would contact the clients and insist on a face-to-face meeting.  Explain that you understand they have concerns and you'd like to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the situation.  If you don't get a warm, fuzzy feeling, then walk away; explain that you don't feel you may be able to satisfy their requirements, and recommend some photographers.  I would consider offering at least a partial refund regardless of what your contract states.


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## unpopular (Nov 2, 2012)

We didn't hire a photographer.

And I am not at all disapointed by that decision.


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## Kerbouchard (Nov 2, 2012)

Sounds to me like she is not the one who is paying for the photographer...Could be that a parent is involved asking a lot of questions and she is the go-between.  That would also explain why she didn't have any method of payment with her.


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## kathyt (Nov 2, 2012)

tirediron said:


> This has "S**t storm written all over it!  I would contact the clients and insist on a face-to-face meeting.  Explain that you understand they have concerns and you'd like to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the situation.  If you don't get a warm, fuzzy feeling, then walk away; explain that you don't feel you may be able to satisfy their requirements, and recommend some photographers.  I would consider offering at least a partial refund regardless of what your contract states.



Being a wedding photographer myself, I would NOT refund that deposit at all for a couple of reasons.  A. You are 3 weeks out from the wedding, and she has completely wasted your time.  B.  She signed the contract.  Period.  C. It was $100.00 deposit!  Plus, now you are losing out on the income from the wedding on such a short notice due to her "BS." 
I can bet you a million bucks this wedding either got cancelled or they ran out of money and they don't have the guts to get on the phone and call.  Make sure you DO NOT use text as a from of communication!  It is very unprofessional.  Pick up the phone or send an e-mail.  Document everything!  If that doesn't work then you need to make sure all correspondence is sent certified mail.  Good luck.

I meant to send this reply to the OP, and not to tirediron.  Oops.


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## Mully (Nov 2, 2012)

Photography is a business and being a photographer you have to be a good business person or in a short time you will be out of business......it is not about pretty pictures it is securing contracts that give you legal rights also. Ask those in your specific area what they do.  I always get a purchase order from the ad agencies I work with so that the usage is clear.  I don't do weddings so listen to the advise of those that shoot weddings.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

kathythorson said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > This has "S**t storm written all over it!  I would contact the clients and insist on a face-to-face meeting.  Explain that you understand they have concerns and you'd like to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the situation.  If you don't get a warm, fuzzy feeling, then walk away; explain that you don't feel you may be able to satisfy their requirements, and recommend some photographers.  I would consider offering at least a partial refund regardless of what your contract states.
> ...


Understood...    My thinking is based on my area, which is relatively small, and where comments on bad service (real or perceived) spread VERY quickly.  Note that I said, "consider a partial refund".  Without knowing the circumstances, it's pointless to speculate on why the client(s) are acting this way, but I have found that it doesn't take a lot to keep [most] people happy, and giving back say 25% of the retainer while reinforcing the point that you are under no obligation to do so, may go a long way to preventing the spreading of bad words.  Of course these are all assessments the OP would need to make after the face-to-face meeting.


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## Gallery29 (Nov 3, 2012)

Very strange. She contacted me today via phone, sounded as though everything was just dandy, and sent the entire payment via paypal (which I accept), WITH a generous tip. Interesting.

I'm still signing up for PPA, LOL! I can't risk this one. Maybe she's just frazzled and emotional right now. I don't know. I asked her if she wanted to get together this evening or tomorrow to sit down and discuss more about the wedding, since sometimes brides just need a little reassurance and need to "talk" to feel better. She said no, that she didn't need to get together. OK. 

I'll keep you all posted...I'm not a praying person, but Lord help me on November 17th! LOL!


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

Good luck with the wedding.  Hope it all goes smoothly for you.


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## kathyt (Nov 3, 2012)

Gallery29 said:


> Very strange. She contacted me today via phone, sounded as though everything was just dandy, and sent the entire payment via paypal (which I accept), WITH a generous tip. Interesting.
> 
> I'm still signing up for PPA, LOL! I can't risk this one. Maybe she's just frazzled and emotional right now. I don't know. I asked her if she wanted to get together this evening or tomorrow to sit down and discuss more about the wedding, since sometimes brides just need a little reassurance and need to "talk" to feel better. She said no, that she didn't need to get together. OK.
> 
> I'll keep you all posted...I'm not a praying person, but Lord help me on November 17th! LOL!



I am glad things are looking up for you.  That had to have been a crappy feeling I'm sure.  Could have been just stress or PMS, who knows, but I wish you luck.


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## Tee (Nov 3, 2012)

Glad to hear it sounds like everything will be ok.  It could be a myriad of things or maybe she couldn't sleep one night and spent a few hours reading horror stories on The Knot.


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## tirediron (Nov 3, 2012)

Good luck!


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## skieur (Nov 3, 2012)

Gallery29 said:


> Yes, it says deposit. You learn something new everyday. That's why I like this forum so much. It's a very small deposit/retainer ($100), so it's not that big of a deal, but I'll change my wording to "retainer" for next time. What I'm most upset about it probably losing out on the wedding money!
> 
> No, not a member of PPA yet. I decided to wait until I do photography full-time (right now I'm a senior at LSU graduating in 5 weeks!). I plan on signing up with PPA at the beginning of 2012!
> 
> I do understand my clients concern, to an extent. But I wouldn't have an elaborate Facebook page that I update regularly and converse freely with my existing clients if I planned on ripping someone off for a small amount (in comparison) of money. Who does that?? I don't need to create a Facebook page that I update daily or weekly to carry on a facade for FIVE months to rip someone off for a thousand bucks. Dang.



You need to read between her lines so-to-speak as in:  Does she have financial problems and therefore wants to get out of the contract?  Does she hope that you will trust her with the photographs BEFORE being paid? (in which case, you may have trouble getting paid, at all.)  The worst thing you could do, is go on the defensive. (Stay professional and realize that she may have a different agenda behind what she is saying.)  What does she REALLY want, irrespective of what she is saying?

Good luck.

skieur


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

Maybe there is some ambiguity in your contract that she misread and made her feel uneasy? Perhaps have someone here go over it with you, someone who is more impartial than people close to you, but more of a laymen than your attorney?

If she wanted an electronic copy of the contract, then perhaps she had questions and needed to e-mail it to a friend or relative.


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## kokonut (Dec 14, 2012)

I am very curious about what happened in the end with that deal.I read the whole thread and I am surprised how strangely some clients react. That is the reason why we should qualify better the clients during the presale periode and when we feel that something is strange to not hesitate to give a nogo!


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## Awiserbud (Dec 14, 2012)

people are strange, simple as that. glad you got your money, good luck with the wedding, hope everything goes well.


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## Steve5D (Dec 14, 2012)

And this is why I don't shoot weddings...


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## Willieboy (Jan 1, 2013)

In my twenty-two years of working with prospects and some clients, all I can say is that people are inscrutable.  I don't work with clients who do not trust my advice and I spend very little time with prospects who are unresponsive. Doctors don't waste much time with patients who will not take their meds or follow his instructions.  Sometimes there are good reasons for a lack of progress with a prospect, but most times they have changed their minds, will not do business with you and just don't want to tell you that.  Move on.


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## gconnoyer (Jan 1, 2013)

...well since the wedding was Nov 17th....How did it go?!


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