# Wedding and Engagement Photos. Am I undercutting the competition?



## NayLoMo6C (Jun 24, 2014)

I have been shooting weddings and engagement photos for about a year and a half now, and I do most if not all of my advertising on craigslist. Currently, I'm charging a standard $200 an hour rate, in which I'll retouch all of the photos I take. My business model is that I solely take the photos and perform my editing on them, then I'll send the photos to my clients through a web server where they can download them. I do NOT do any printing or album creation.

So, recently I've been getting quite a few hate emails from people who've seen my ads on craigslist. A lot of them hint of the "ridiculous" price that I am charging, and that I am undervaluing the wedding/engagement photography industry. I suspect that these emails are coming mostly from other photographers around my area, who are in my research, are charging a bit more than I. 

Am I really undercutting the other photographers and undervaluing myself? I don't believe that I have spent that much on overhead since my setup is pretty simple, and I don't really spend that much on transportation. 

What do y'all think?


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## thereyoflite (Jun 24, 2014)

Personally, I think that that pay rate is fine. If the wedding photographers in your area charge more, that has very little to do with sales. As far as I've seen with weddings, very few people consider the cost of the photographer, but rather the quality of her pictures. If you are happy with your pay then I would keep it the same, but you shouldn't let your competition choose your cost; they are not your clients. If you feel like you are undervaluing yourself then you probably are, but the fact that you didn't think that before the hate emails means that you probably aren't. Hope I helped


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## elizpage (Jun 24, 2014)

I don't think you are undervaluing yourself or your work at all. If you are making ends meet with that price, then I say go for it! Sometimes it's better to charge a bit less and have more business than to charge more and have less business. But that's just my opinion.


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## tirediron (Jun 24, 2014)

If the price works for you, it works for you.  Who cares about the rest of the world?


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 24, 2014)

Indeed, I am extremely okay with the price that I am currently charging. I just don't want to "monopolize" (in a sense) the photography business around my area if my price WAS priced too low. I mean, I know how it would feel like if some other photographer priced themselves lower than me, and steal all the business. I just want to make sure that the competition is fair, and let my photos vouch for my worth in the eyes of my clients.

And it's sort of depressing when random people flag my posts for deletion, most likely out of tantrum....


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## tirediron (Jun 24, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> Indeed, I am extremely okay with the price that I am currently charging. I just don't want to "monopolize" (in a sense) the photography business around my area if my price WAS priced too low. I mean, I know how it would feel like if some other photographer priced themselves lower than me, and steal all the business. I just want to make sure that the competition is fair, and let my photos vouch for my worth in the eyes of my clients.
> 
> And it's sort of depressing when random people flag my posts for deletion, most likely out of tantrum....


WHY are you advertising on Craig's List?


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 24, 2014)

tirediron said:


> NayLoMo6C said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed, I am extremely okay with the price that I am currently charging. I just don't want to "monopolize" (in a sense) the photography business around my area if my price WAS priced too low. I mean, I know how it would feel like if some other photographer priced themselves lower than me, and steal all the business. I just want to make sure that the competition is fair, and let my photos vouch for my worth in the eyes of my clients.
> ...



Well for one, it's free. Secondly, I have gotten most of my clients from there, less so from other mediums such as referrals and by word of mouth. I advertise within multiple cities around the bay area here in California, so I am capturing quite a large area of demographic. Do you have any suggestions on where I can expand to expose my presence?


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## dennybeall (Jun 24, 2014)

You say $200 an hour but don't say how many hours an average wedding is billed.  If you're talking a couple hours to shoot the wedding and a few hours or more to process then $800 to $1000 or more is not undercutting the competition. But if you just charge a couple of hours then you probably are.


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## tirediron (Jun 24, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > NayLoMo6C said:
> ...


Flower shops, wedding-dress shops, venue owners...


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 24, 2014)

dennybeall said:


> You say $200 an hour but don't say how many hours an average wedding is billed.  If you're talking a couple hours to shoot the wedding and a few hours or more to process then $800 to $1000 or more is not undercutting the competition. But if you just charge a couple of hours then you probably are.



The average amount of time my clients usually go for is around 2-3 hours of shooting, so I would charge $400-600 accordingly. I would then spend around 1.5 to 2 hours post-processing every 1 hour's worth of photos ( I normally shoot 50-70 photos an hour).

P.S. 2-3 hours is the usual engagement photos duration. Weddings are usually 5-6 hours


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## KmH (Jun 24, 2014)

Regardless what anyone ele thinks about what you charge:

You're shooting yourself in both feet (leaving _*a lot*_ of money on the table) by giving clients digital files to download.

Even at $200 an hour it's quite possible you're financially subsidizing each shoot by some amount.

Do you have a legal-in-California business, keep the required accounting records, have business liability insurance, and forward to the State any sales taxes they are due?


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 24, 2014)

KmH said:


> Do you have a legal-in-California business, keep the required accounting records, have business liability insurance, and forward to the State any sales taxes they are due?



no, no, no, and no. For most of my engagement clients, I 99.99% of the time accept cash payment up front on the day of the shoot, and I generally won't even produce a contract for it ( none of them ever request to have a contract). It's only the wedding clients that demand contracts, and for the 4-5 weddings I have done in totality, they have all went smoothly with a contract in place.


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## vfotog (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a legal-in-California business, keep the required accounting records, have business liability insurance, and forward to the State any sales taxes they are due?
> ...



so you realize you are in violation of California and Federal law, right?


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm in a different industry (construction) but I always vary my pricing based on how much work I have booked on my calendar. I have a minimum price that I won't go below but the further out I'm booked the more I'll charge the next guy who calls. 

You should definitely start a business and get things legit. It protects everyone involved. You could always satisfy your customers and you may not ever have an issue for as long as you live but remember that hate mail you're getting? Chances are you'll get reported by a competitor. I know I report unlicensed contractors.


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## gsgary (Jun 25, 2014)

Post some photos and we will tell you


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## sonicbuffalo (Jun 25, 2014)

First and foremost....get legal.  If you have contracts for weddings, eventually you'll run into someone who isn't happy with the results and they will complain about your photography and do some research, and whammo, you'll get busted.  Then the government will probably do an estimate (more than you probably have shot) on the number of weddings and other photography you've undertaken, and then they'll not only take you to court, but they will fine you heavily.  Get a great lawyer, because you're going to need one!


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## KmH (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a legal-in-California business, keep the required accounting records, have business liability insurance, and forward to the State any sales taxes they are due?
> ...


That's what I thought.

Good Luck.


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## astroNikon (Jun 25, 2014)

If you maintain this as a Hobby per IRS Rules (basically don't take an income and it's not your primary source of revenue, ie you have a day job too) .. but I still wouldn't skip the insurance et al

talk to your account about it.

and read something like this ....
Why I Can?t Shoot Your Wedding for Free {Part I of II}


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## spacefuzz (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a legal-in-California business, keep the required accounting records, have business liability insurance, and forward to the State any sales taxes they are due?
> ...




You realize if you already have photographers hating on you that its not a stretch that they could report you to the state.  You DO NOT want to have to pay those fines. Just know if you keep doing it like you do that you are playing with fire.


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 25, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> If you maintain this as a Hobby per IRS Rules (basically don't take an income and it's not your primary source of revenue, ie you have a day job too) .. but I still wouldn't skip the insurance et al
> 
> talk to your account about it.
> 
> ...



This is technically a hobby at the moment. I am working a full time job and only do photo-shoots during my weekends, so it's not my main source of revenue. I at most do around 2-3 engagement shoots per month max, and around 1 wedding every 2-3 months


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## radiorickm (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> dennybeall said:
> 
> 
> > You say $200 an hour but don't say how many hours an average wedding is billed. If you're talking a couple hours to shoot the wedding and a few hours or more to process then $800 to $1000 or more is not undercutting the competition. But if you just charge a couple of hours then you probably are.
> ...



There are some things in your numbers that don't add up to me, and this is not said to be ugly......BUT....... if it takes you 2:1 time to process pictures vs shoot pictures, I have serious questions about your ability to shoot GOOD pictures to begin with. IF it takes you 10 minutes to take a photo, and then another 20 minutes in photo shop to fix it, there is something wrong!

 Your numbers seem really low, 50 an hour is ~ONE picture a minute. In a 6 hour shoot, you have 18 hours tied up in less than 300 photos. That's assuming that all 50 were keepers, and that just doesn't seem like a reasonable amount to me.


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## robbins.photo (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > If you maintain this as a Hobby per IRS Rules (basically don't take an income and it's not your primary source of revenue, ie you have a day job too) .. but I still wouldn't skip the insurance et al
> ...



Well the IRS can be real sticklers for this kind of thing, but seriously I would probably be a lot more concerned about a lack of contracts and a lack of insurance. Even if you do define this as a "hobby" and even assuming the IRS would agree with that definition continuing to shoot without either leaves you open to some serious possible legal entanglements. Imagine for just a moment your shooting a wedding, some little kid comes running through and knocks over one of your lights, it falls and they get burned.

Ok, you may have the best relationship in the world with the couple getting married - but you may not know this kids parents from Adam - and guess what, they might just decide to sue you for damages. There are just so many scenarios that might come up where someone gets hurt where you could be held financially responsible it isn't even funny, so yes - even if you are going to continue running this as a "hobby" you'd better seriously consider getting some insurance to cover you for at least some of these basic liabiity concerns.

The other issue is the contracts. So far, lets face it - you've been lucky. But in today's rather litigious society if your shooting without any form of written agreement your just inviting disaster. I had a friend who did some IT work on the side, advertised in the local paper, etc - he setup a network for a small business, a lawyers office - and even though he fullfilled everythng he told them he would do and did the job on time and on budget, six months later they had problems - problems that had to do with work they had done later as opposed to anything he was involved with, but because he had no contract, he got sued.

If he'd had a contract spelling out the details of what he was responsible for, well it probably never would have happened - but since he didn't it cost him a pretty penny to defend himself against the lawsuit. That is more or less what your inviting here by not having any sort of contracts. I really do wish we lived in the kind of society where oral contracts where honored and people kept their word, but lets face it, we don't.


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 25, 2014)

radiorickm said:


> NayLoMo6C said:
> 
> 
> > dennybeall said:
> ...



I meant to say that for every hour I shoot, I generally deliver about 50-70 solid shots that have been properly edited ( I will shoot anywhere around 500-700 shots in a 2 hour session, sometimes even more)



robbins.photo said:


> NayLoMo6C said:
> 
> 
> > astroNikon said:
> ...



Makes total sense, thanks for the insight. I will have to look into getting insurance


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## astroNikon (Jun 25, 2014)

FYI .. IRS insight into "hobby"
Is Your Hobby a For-Profit Endeavor?



> The following factors, although not all inclusive, may help you to determine whether your activity is an activity engaged in for profit or a hobby:
> 
> 
> Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?
> ...


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## vfotog (Jun 25, 2014)

it doesn't sound like this is a hobby. It sounds like you're charging  more than you are spending and making a profit. If it's not for profit, you need to itemize your allowable deductions and they can't be more than your income.  No matter which way you go, you do need to report your income. Also, you're not a corporation and exempt. The people that are paying you should be reporting those payments to the IRS since it's over $600. The reporting threshold is $600 a YEAR. With the amount of time spent on each client, most of your clients are going to be above that threshold. So if you have a client that actually knows and follows the law, they should be 1099ing you. Remember Nannygate? Unreported income needs to be taken seriously. Even at 2-4 shoots a month, that's several thousand dollars of unreported income. And it's not just insurance, taxes, etc. Even cities can have licensing requirements.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> This is technically a hobby at the moment. I am working a full time job and only do photo-shoots during my weekends, so it's not my main source of revenue. I at most do around 2-3 engagement shoots per month max, and around 1 wedding every 2-3 months



Hate to break it to you OP, but if you make more than $600 total for the year, then the IRS doesn't consider it a hobby. You must declare it as miscellaneous income on a 1040 schedule C form, or you're in violation of the law.

However, even if you don't care about the law or think you're small enough that they'll never spend time on you.....

Accepting paid work of any kind without a detailed written and signed contract, and keeping at least liability insurance in force, is mind-bogglingly arrogant and stupid. There's no way around it.

Either get every single client on a well-written contract (plenty of people here may be willing to help you find or alter one for your use) and get yourself properly insured IMMEDIATELY, or stop taking paid clients immediately.

To do anything else isn't just risking disaster, it's inviting disaster into your home for some warm milk and bedtime stories.


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## NayLoMo6C (Jun 25, 2014)

jamesbjenkins said:


> NayLoMo6C said:
> 
> 
> > This is technically a hobby at the moment. I am working a full time job and only do photo-shoots during my weekends, so it's not my main source of revenue. I at most do around 2-3 engagement shoots per month max, and around 1 wedding every 2-3 months
> ...



I have only started to realize the severity of not having a photographer's insurance and all that, thank you to all those who have hit me with the reality hammer. Which insurance should I go for, and does it depend on my location? I just did a quick google search on photographer's insurance and came to "Pro Photographer's Insurance"... Are they any good?


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## jamesbjenkins (Jun 25, 2014)

NayLoMo6C said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > I have only started to realize the severity of not having a photographer's insurance and all that, thank you to all those who have hit me with the reality hammer. Which insurance should I go for, and does it depend on my location? I just did a quick google search on photographer's insurance and came to "Pro Photographer's Insurance"... Are they any good?
> ...


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## JacaRanda (Jun 26, 2014)

Sometimes, 'none of your business' is a totally acceptable response.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JoeW (Jul 20, 2014)

I know this thread is about a month old but....here's my thoughts...

1.  You don't go into business to make your competitors happy.  Now, you're not going into business to make them pissed off either.  But b/c you get hate mail from other photographers doesn't mean you should change to meet their standards.  Your business is your business.

2.  I have known at least two other photographers very similar to you.  Both relied solely on CL.  Both did this as a second job/"hobby".  Both handed over a DVD (one of them didn't even do edits--just gave over RAW or usually jpeg files).  BTW, both are out of business now.  But then most people who try to start photographic businesses go out of business--it's a difficult business world to succeed in as a photographer (which is part of the reason you're getting the hate mail).

3.  Definitely get the insurance.   And forget the rationale that it's a "hobby"...no-way you'll be able to justify that unless you either shoot a number of weddings for free or you can document that you lose money.  There are just too many wedding photographers out there for the IRS to accept a position that it's only a hobby for you.  And definitely expect a disgruntled competitor to turn you in to the State or IRS (did you know that the IRS gives people a percentage of the money gained when a case is turned in that produces revenue....ie: back taxes?).

4.  Just me personally but I think you're under-cutting yourself.  There is value in a flat rate fee (b/c you're appealing to folks who are cheap, who aren't going to pay $10k for a wedding and where prices is their primary decider) b/c they're afraid the photographer is going to bankrupt them and when you tell them it's likely 2-3 hours, they can smile and live with that in their budget.  And to you (no offense) but with a day job, this is found money...it's extra cash for you.  But think of it this way....if this was your day job, at about $600 a wedding/session, you'd have to shoot about 100 weddings a year (which is a phenomenal amount, especially given how seasonal the numbers tend to break down) to make $60k gross (which would be about $40-45k after you figure in insurance, business expenses, some possible equipment upgrades).  Your profile says San Francisco...I don't think $40k goes very far there (and I don't think most wedding photographers would tell you that 100 clients per year is realistic).  And....having said all that, you may be very comfortable shooting with the model that you do and making $400-$600 per wedding.  If that's the case, you can now understand why you're getting the hate from people who do this as their day job (and charge $2,000 per wedding as a bargain-basement level).

5.  Just a couple of business advice comments I'd offer:
--I would rarely attempt to compete on price.  Yes, you do.  And you're successful (up to a point).  But something that is true for all types of business:  customers that you gain primarily on price are the ones who are the least loyal.  They will recommend you but only as long as you're the cheapest.  They are also more likely to sue (or threaten to take you to court) b/c to them, it's almost entirely about getting the cheapest price available.  And there will always be someone else around who can undercut your prices and do it cheaper.  So a business model based on being cheaper than anyone else has some significant down sides.  That said, you may decide that's the direction you want to keep going...if so, good luck and god speed to you.  Just do so with open eyes.
--Always, always, always have a contract with your client that spells out expectations and rules.  I hate lawyers.  I hate going to court.  I love operating on a handshake.  But the best way to stay out of court and not involve the sharks is to have a good contract that lays out expectations and who is doing what.  A veteran wedding photographer will tell you how unreasonable some clients can be.  This is supposed to be their dream day.  That you didn't produce video...or that you missed one specific shot...or that you only gave them 300 files...can be enough to set someone off.  I've shot a couple of wedding (mostly as a gift for a friend who already had someone hired for the wedding).  90% of the shooters on this list who do or did it professionally will agree with me that we won't touch weddings b/c of the hassles, possible bride-zillas, and legal threats.  Anytime you do business you want to manage expectations.  With weddings, even more so.  You may think your instructions and handshake agreements are clear (and they probably are).  But put it on paper and get people to sign it--that's the best way to preclude some of the unreasonable nastiness that occurs with some wedding shoots.


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## NayLoMo6C (Jul 26, 2014)

JoeW said:


> I know this thread is about a month old but....here's my thoughts...
> 
> 1.  You don't go into business to make your competitors happy.  Now, you're not going into business to make them pissed off either.  But b/c you get hate mail from other photographers doesn't mean you should change to meet their standards.  Your business is your business.
> 
> ...



Thank you so so much for this very insightful response Joe. I definitely see where you're coming from in regards to under-cutting myself and all that. I am slowly but surely transitioning from my current full-time job at the office to a full-on photographer career. That being said, I will have to start revamping my business model and do all the necessary steps to legitimize myself!


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## Chrispyphotos (Jul 26, 2014)

Just out of curiosity...

Does this mean that any money made from taking photos that is put back into the business and not made as profit, you wouldn't need a business license? At least that's how I am interpreting it. So if I take pictures for people, use the money to buy more gear etc, then I'm not making a profit right? ready set go..


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## JoeW (Jul 26, 2014)

Chrispyphotos said:


> Just out of curiosity...
> 
> Does this mean that any money made from taking photos that is put back into the business and not made as profit, you wouldn't need a business license? At least that's how I am interpreting it. So if I take pictures for people, use the money to buy more gear etc, then I'm not making a profit right? ready set go..



There are a number of "tests" that the IRS uses to determine if you're a business.  And each state varies.  Making a profit is not a determiner if you're a business or not (i.e.: you can lose money and still be a business).   You are confusing two elements:  whether you're a business (and thus need a license and other details like insurance) and whether or not you're profitable (which has to do with the taxes you pay).  My concern would be more about insurance and licensing issues rather than taxes.  Business taxes are comparatively easy to sort out.  But if you're running a business from your home (and it's not zoned for that and you don't have a business license with the country or state.....).  Or if someone sues you for breach of contract or failure to deliver and your argument is "I'm not a business, I don't make money" the riposte from the attorney suing you is "yes, you're a business, just a poorly run business."

Here's the deal:  claiming photography is a "hobby" has a lot of obstacles for most people b/c there are so many photographers who do this as a business (so it's almost as if the state corporation commission and county finance office) view you as a business by default.


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## astroNikon (Jul 26, 2014)

Try not to err on the side of your interpretation .. as your accountant for some more clarity.  Then call the IRS when they're not in tax season.  They'll ask you questions too to help you understand if you are.

but if you have a somewhat consistent revenue stream and you are growing the "operations" by putting your revenue back into the "organization" then you are essentially a business.  The entire thing comes up to how much revenue you make per year, how much money you put into your "hobby"  if you write off any of that stuff on taxes or not, are you marketing yourself (going out and getting business or does it come to you)  etc etc.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 26, 2014)

Cheap clients will only refer you to cheap clients.  I know from experience.  You have to push your self.  I admit.. i did entertain a couple of craiglisters just for portfolio sake.  Then I kept pushing my price.  People always expect similar price!  Friends tell friends how much they pay.  Now every time my previous wedding client's friends contact me, I know their wedding budget is in my range.  

But price is somewhat related to your product.  If you aren't performing well.. then a few hundred dollars is all you can get.

Cheers!


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## KmH (Jul 26, 2014)

When you take pictures for people, if what you charge is more than what it cost you to take the pictures and produce them, then you have made a profit.
That profit is taxable income.

If you then use that profit to buy camera gear, you have invested your profit in your business by buying business equipment.
You can subsequently deduct the cost of that equipment from your taxes, in a couple of different ways.

Of course, you are required to have records (an accounting system) that shows how money came into and was used by your business.
Many retail photographers do not have an effective accounting system and do not know if they are or aren't actually mailing a profit.business costs.
The usual result of that situation is that the photographer isn't actually making any money and essentially (and indirectly) pays each customer to let the photographer take the photos.



> Accounting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Accounting, which has been called the "language of business",[SUP][3][/SUP] measures the results of an organization's economic activities and conveys this information to a variety of users including investors, creditors,management, and regulators.[SUP][4][/SUP]



But BEWARE when taking deductions:
*Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions*



> The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year . . .



If you claim deductions as a business, but don't make a profit in three of the last five tax years you claimed those deductions, the IRS will re-classify your 'business' as a hobby and disallow the previously taken deductions. The IRS will send you a bill for the back taxes you owe. The bill will include any fines or penalties that apply.

If you are not familiar with how business finances need to be handled and accounted for you, need the assistance of a qualified accountant.


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