# Does a paid photographer has the right?



## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

I was shooting at the fashion show last night.  This one photographer, I think he got paid to shoot.  He asked me to move, so he could shoot in my spot.  Does he has the right to tell me to move?


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## Designer (Jan 30, 2014)

Who was there first?  Did he ask in a polite, respectful manner?  Did you move?  Was the spot the only one where he could work?


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## MGRPhoto (Jan 30, 2014)

Kind of sounds like when family/friend photographers get in the way of the paid photographer at weddings... if he was really paid to shoot the show then I'd say he had the right to ask for your spot. Was he a jerk about it?


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

it will pretty much depend on what rules the fashion show has laid out for that event, and who "hired" the other photographer. 
if the fashion show itself, or the venue owners hired the photographer, they may get preferential treatment to locations. 
if someone outside the venue hired them, there may not be any rule giving him authority to take spots from people. 
best thing for next time is to ask the venue what their rules are for photographers.


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## Derrel (Jan 30, 2014)

Here's about the order:

"You can shoot right next to me, pal. Squeeze right in here, right next to me." 

"If you wanted this spot, you should have gotten here earlier." 

"I don't see your name on this spot."

"You snooze you lose."

"Oh, really? Why don't you go and get security and tell them that you deserve my spot? Let's see what they say."

"I hear self-copulation is fun--how 'bout you go out to the parking lot and try it?"

"Look buddy...you ****ed up and got here late. Go **** yourself."


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## sm4him (Jan 30, 2014)

Does he have the right to tell you to move? Absolutely.
Does that mean you actually HAVE to move? Depends.

Were you in an area where only "official" photographers, press, etc are really allowed?
If not, were you already IN your spot when he came, or did you possibly move in and get in the way of where he already was?

If you were in a place where you were allowed to be, and you didn't obstruct a spot he already had (you know, like when you're at a street parade and you're one step off the curb in the street, at a PERFECT place to see and capture the action&#8230;until some yahoo moves in, a foot away from you, and parks his chairs and his four kids TWO steps off the curb&#8230--then he can TELL you to move, but you can also tell him No. 
That said, I'd probably be nice and move.


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

He was a bit rude.  He yelled at me, "Excuse me! Excuse me!"   He kept moving around the runway and blocked everyone's view. I was staying at the spot the whole time ever since the fashion show began.


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## Braineack (Jan 30, 2014)

next time bring an led flashlight and proceede to point it directly in his lens the entire show...


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## DiskoJoe (Jan 30, 2014)

Braineack said:


> next time bring an led flashlight and proceede to point it directly in his lens the entire show...



This all day long!


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## deveaushawn (Jan 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Here's about the order:
> 
> "You can shoot right next to me, pal. Squeeze right in here, right next to me."
> 
> ...



I like the last one: Go asterisk yourself!


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## robbins.photo (Jan 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Here's about the order:
> 
> "You can shoot right next to me, pal. Squeeze right in here, right next to me."
> 
> ...



Reminds me of that scene from Terminator where all the possible responses get listed and Arny picks one.. lol.

I dunno, you can also try the subtle approach, blink your eyes at him a few times coquettishly and then tell him he's more than welcome to sit on your lap and take pictures.  My guess is he'll flee at that stage and the problem will be solved.


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## e.rose (Jan 30, 2014)

I he was paid to be there as the official photographer, and you were there just for fun... Then yes.

There is NOTHING more irritated than getting hired for an event and trying to do your job, and uncle bob, hobbiest joey, cousin Sarah and MWAC Barb are all in your way as you're trying to *work*.

Sent from my iPhone using PhotoForum


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

e.rose said:


> I he was paid to be there as the official photographer, and you were there just for fun... Then yes.
> 
> There is NOTHING more irritated than getting hired for an event and trying to do your job, and uncle bob, hobbiest joey, cousin Sarah and MWAC Barb are all in your way as you're trying to *work*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PhotoForum




Agreed. Because it's the paid person's ass on the line if they don't get the shot because some lookie-loo was using their ipad to snap some instagrams.


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## Derrel (Jan 30, 2014)

Part of human nature is that once a person establishes a spot for himself, a second, later-arriving photographer will often covet the same,exact spot. THe same goes for a fisherman on a stretch of river; the later-arriving guy will often see your spot and subconsciously think, "THAT must be '*the spot*'!" From a distance of 15 to 100 feet, there's basically no difference in camera vantage point standing right next to another photographer, so, again, start with, "Hey, squeeze in right next to me." Whether shooting an event, or steelhead fishing on a prime riffle.

Anybody who thinks HE or SHE is entitled to the exact, precise 30 inch-wide strip of real estate that YOU happened to occupy, FIRST, can go **** himself, or herself. Seriously. Paid, un-payed, volunteer, pro, semi-pro,Uncle Bill, Aunt Erica, Cousin Bob, whoever....

 If the event has security, tell the late-arriving douche to, "Go get security, and tell them that you think you deserve my spot. Let's see what they say," because this does two things: it offers a solution, and secondly, it shows that you are willing to abide by what security thinks, and it also means that the late-arriving, insistent a$$ must go, get security, and then bring them back, and try and make a case as to why he, the later-arriving shooter, must occupy *YOUR EXACT, PRECISE, 30-inch-wide foot or butt-print*, and why he or she cannot get basically the same coverage from 20 inches to the left, or right, of your lens. You know, like a professional shooter could easily do.

Seriously...this is funny. I've run into these kinds of people. Start by telling them, "Hey, squeeze in right next to me, buddy." It makes a subtle statement. It's friendly. It subtly conveys the reality--specifically, the reality that no two people can occupy the same, exact space. And it subtly conveys the idea that," You, the late-arriving, self-entitled D-bag that you are acting like, think you need to be here, well then go ahead--stand here--*right next to ME. *Not in my godd**ned exact shoe-prints, but, you know, *right here,next to where I stationed myself at, first, *before you even walked in! Payed, unpayed, whatever."

Seriously. I've been shooting for 30+ years. I've encountered these kind of guys at multiple events, and they are usually wanna-be's who really have no idea why they need to be EXACTLY where somebody else is. I've been to many press conferences where there were up to 4 TV news crews and 10, or 12 still guys...there's room for everybody. THe view from 20 inches to the left of my lens or 20 inches to the right of my lens is basically the SAME vantage point. Deal with it.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Part of human nature is that once a person establishes a spot for himself, a second, later-arriving photographer will often covet the same,exact spot. THe same goes for a fisherman on a stretch of river; the later-arriving guy will often see your spot and subconsciously think, "THAT must be '*the spot*'!" From a distance of 15 to 100 feet, there's basically no difference in camera vantage point standing right next to another photographer, so, again, start with, "Hey, squeeze in right next to me." Whether shooting an event, or steelhead fishing on a prime riffle.
> 
> Anybody who thinks HE or SHE is entitled to the exact, precise 30 inch-wide strip of real estate that YOU happened to occupy, FIRST, can go **** himself, or herself. Seriously. Paid, un-payed, volunteer, pro, semi-pro,Uncle Bill, Aunt Erica, Cousin Bob, whoever....
> 
> ...



So, in summation, go asterick yourself?  Lol


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

for me, the biggest piece of information missing is _*who*_ hired that photographer. if the host or the venue hired them for "official" coverage, I would be a little more inclined to give them location priority, providing of course, that they were civil about it and didn't follow me around demanding every spot i got to. if that is the case, there would probably be some written rule for it somewhere. 

if they were just hired by one of the models or family to get some shots for their portfolio, paid or not, that doesn't rate them any priority in my book.


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

Law of the jungle baby. He bared his teeth and you backed down. He is the alpha male and will have the pick of your spots and women.


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

runnah said:


> Law of the jungle baby. He bared his teeth and you backed down. He is the alpha male and will have the pick of your spots and women.




he probably had a bigger lens.


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Law of the jungle baby. He bared his teeth and you backed down. He is the alpha male and will have the pick of your spots and women.
> ...




The world moves for people who aren't afraid to push.


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

runnah said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



or, it was the gripped camera.


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## manicmike (Jan 30, 2014)

runnah said:


> Law of the jungle baby. He bared his teeth and you backed down. He is the alpha male and will have the pick of your spots and women.



That just means you have to pee in his spot next time. Leave your scent.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 30, 2014)

Did you have a pass or credentials? Did it appear that he did? 

In my experience in sports/events the credentialed photographers have access to areas that fans don't, and would have priority over fans/spectators to photograph the event from common areas as well. A still photographer, even one that's credentialed, usually has to stay out of the way of the TV crew/cameras - they rule!  

Before you go, see what you can find out from the venue or event organizer about what their procedures and guidelines are for spectators if you'll be attending the event and don't have credentials (if you're issued a pass they should let you know that information). Find out where you can and can't be. Go early and notice at the event if you see anyone wearing credentials and see where they set up. If need be try asking security or at Will Call etc. where you can set up to take photos. 

If an event isn't issuing credentials it's probably going to be hard to know if someone has access to a particular vantage point because they were hired by the venue or a sponsor, etc.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> I was shooting at the fashion show last night. This one photographer, I think he got paid to shoot. He asked me to move, so he could shoot in my spot. Does he has the right to tell me to move?



No. It's that simple. Unless there is a pass hanging around his neck and it's a designated photo position he has no right to ask you to move. It was a simple power play on the other photographers part. Professional photographers should have already sorted out where the best spot is to shoot from and not have to be kicking some amateur out of the "best" spot, after the event has started.


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't see he was wearing a pass or a t-shirt that says, "Official photographer."


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> I don't see he was wearing a pass or a t-shirt that says, "Official photographer."



then you should have throat punched him and kept shooting.


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> I don't see he was wearing a pass or a t-shirt that says, "Official photographer."



Did you have a shirt that said "*****" on it?


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

runnah said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see he was wearing a pass or a t-shirt that says, "Official photographer."
> ...



I don't understand what are you saying.  What is with you guys with sexual attitudes?


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> I don't understand what are you saying.  What is with you guys with sexual attitudes?



Pix started it.

The point was that you let someone walk over you.


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## pixmedic (Jan 30, 2014)

runnah said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand what are you saying.  What is with you guys with sexual attitudes?
> ...



nuh uh....you did


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

Well, I don't mind to give up my spot if it is importance.  He would have given me a reason and why.  I don't know he was hired or what was the purpose of shooting.  I already did give up my spot just for this guy.  I felt like it was rude.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 30, 2014)

I know you are but what am I. (That's to runnah and pixmedic & co.)

More seriously, usually credentials would be worn on a lanyard, or in some sports/venues a vest could be worn. You'd think if he was a hired photographer he wouldn't be that rude and obnoxious, but it seems these days that sometimes people with cameras are managing to get paid to shoot an event whether they know what they're doing or not, or getting credentials just because they know somebody; and some people just act like they think they're entitled. 

If you're informed about the event/venue guidelines for cameras and photography then you'd know if you're following their rules for spectators/fans/attendees. I think the people you'd need to listen to would be anyone with the sponsoring organization, or someone who works at the venue, or an usher/security guard, etc. but not some nitwit with a camera.


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## runnah (Jan 30, 2014)

To be fair I've been to many a PR event and more often than not no one has any badge or press pass. I've encountered them at sporting events and concerts but that's about it.


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## weepete (Jan 30, 2014)

Well they can ask, you don't have to move, no matter whos asks. 

If they ask nicely and I don't care about the shot first then I'll more than likely say yes. If it's a shot I really want or if they are rude, then tough.

But I do have the British sense for a queue.


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## acparsons (Jan 30, 2014)

If he is the main photographer that means that his job is to take photos. I shot a fashion show a couple of months ago for our community center, I think the main photographer has the right. His photos will be the one that get permission to be published in the magazines.


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## AlanKlein (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> I was shooting at the fashion show last night. This one photographer, I think he got paid to shoot. He asked me to move, so he could shoot in my spot. Does he has the right to tell me to move?



Since he gets paid to shoot as you acknowledged, it would have been nice if you moved so he could do his job and not get fired for not doing it.  It's not a matter of being "right" just courteous.  Don't you get out of the way when an ambulance is trying to pass you?


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 30, 2014)

AlanKlein said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > I was shooting at the fashion show last night. This one photographer, I think he got paid to shoot. He asked me to move, so he could shoot in my spot. Does he has the right to tell me to move?
> ...



Completely Wrong. If he is a professional photographer he should be acting like one. As I said before if he is a professional he should have had the best spot picked out and should have been standing in that spot before the event started.  It's pretender professionals like this that always create problems for the professionals that take their jobs seriously.

The ambulance line was pointless.


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## JerryVenz (Jan 30, 2014)

When I'm hired to cover an event I'm the DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY for that event and I make it clear by my actions that I'm in charge of not only ALL the best spots for my camera but lighting placement--DJ's at wedding receptions DO NOT get to control the lights on MY set--and intensity for the room.
That being said, I also tell the hired videographer ( we usually become a TEAM that create a PROFESSIONAL WALL at the best locations that keeps the amatuers away ) and guests where they can set-up to still get good shots so that we aren't cross-shooting each other.
If they have an amatuer videographer I also help them set-up their tripod in a position that gives them a good vantage point so that they are not in my pre-planned field of view.

The event ALWAYS goes better if I can accomodate the other professionals and guests.


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## snowbear (Jan 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Here's about the order:
> 
> "You can shoot right next to me, pal. Squeeze right in here, right next to me."
> 
> ...



With hand gestures and a Brooklyn accent: "Hey - I got your spot right here!"


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## kathyt (Jan 30, 2014)

When I get paid to shoot dance recitals, the venue reserves my seat and position so no one else can sit (or stand) there. If they asked politely I would have moved so they could get the job done.


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## tirediron (Jan 30, 2014)

A professional arrives early, scouts the venue and plans his shoot.  He knows where to be when, and if there are spots that he needs to get to, he coordinates with the venue to ensure they are accessible when he needs them!


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## Bossy (Jan 30, 2014)

tirediron said:


> A professional arrives early, scouts the venue and plans his shoot.  He knows where to be when, and if there are spots that he needs to get to, he coordinates with the venue to ensure they are accessible when he needs them!


However, if this was his venue, and he already knew the best spot, and OP happened to agree with him...


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## manaheim (Jan 30, 2014)

As a wedding photographer, I push amateurs and Uncle Phils out of the way all the time... and those people have emotional ties to the situation.

If I were a paid shooting pro, I would ask you to move as well.  If you didn't move, I WOULD get security and have you removed.

Not that there's any excuse for people to be a dick about it (I wouldn't bother- I'd just get the security dudes to deal with it), but if you're just an amateur I think you should get out of the way when asked.


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

Bossy said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > A professional arrives early, scouts the venue and plans his shoot.  He knows where to be when, and if there are spots that he needs to get to, he coordinates with the venue to ensure they are accessible when he needs them!
> ...



I didn't say I agree with this paid photographer.  He seems running around the runway and taking random spots trying to get every angle shot.  I think he was not prepared.


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

manaheim said:


> As a wedding photographer, I push amateurs and Uncle Phils out of the way all the time... and those people have emotional ties to the situation.
> 
> If I were a paid shooting pro, I would ask you to move as well.  If you didn't move, I WOULD get security and have you removed.
> 
> Not that there's any excuse for people to be a dick about it (I wouldn't bother- I'd just get the security dudes to deal with it), but if you're just an amateur I think you should get out of the way when asked.



This was not a wedding ceremony.  There were no guidelines to enforce.  I didn't make any excuse, dicking, or bitching.  I asked a simple question.  Some of you guys offended.  I think I shouldn't been posting this thread in the first place.


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## kathyt (Jan 30, 2014)

tecboy said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > As a wedding photographer, I push amateurs and Uncle Phils out of the way all the time... and those people have emotional ties to the situation.
> ...


I think it was a very valid question.


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

kathyt said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...



So, I can not shoot any good picture.  Why wasting my time going to the fashion show?


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## tecboy (Jan 30, 2014)

BTW,  if the security folks asked me to move or leave, I would be very pissed off!


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## Robin Usagani (Jan 30, 2014)

where were you standing or sitting?  Were you at the spot where a guest suppose to sit?  Or were you at the front where you werent supposed to be?


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## manaheim (Jan 31, 2014)

tecboy said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > As a wedding photographer, I push amateurs and Uncle Phils out of the way all the time... and those people have emotional ties to the situation.
> ...



I wasn't implying you were being a dick, I was saying if HE was being one, then I would take issue with that. Not you. Him.

And the fact that this wasn't a wedding ceremony isn't the point. What I was saying was "as a professional doing something that is similar in that it is photography for money, but otherwise different in ways I could only speculate...".

I'm not offended.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 31, 2014)

I have zero respect for anyone working as a professional,  acting like they own the place.  I've likely worked more events, big and small than anyone else posting and see this type of photographer acting like king ****, making everyone aware that they are in the room, stroking their own ego with a mirror look of "I'm the most important person here and no one else matters" They are the problem, not the Op

There have been lots of times where amateurs and professionals have been in my way. I had a post last year where it happened to me. What the Op posted is a different  from my situation. The person hired or not, has no right telling someone to move that has every right to be where they are. If there have been no rules put in place that say any different then too bad for the guy working.

Having security throw someone with a camera out that isn't causing any problems, was smart enough to be standing where they were is pretty weak. I'm not sure why some people always take the low road to settle simple problems. 

The "professional" in this case was wrong.


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## tirediron (Jan 31, 2014)

Bossy said:


> However, if this was his venue, and he already knew the best spot, and OP happened to agree with him...


the last part of that sentence is the important one. He ensured that it is available.  Now, if I'm the hired gun at an event and rope off an area and someone crosses the boundary, then out they go. If I don't stake out my turf...  out I go!


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

tecboy said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > tecboy said:
> ...


I was saying that your thread was a very valid discussion.


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## tecboy (Jan 31, 2014)

kathyt said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > kathyt said:
> ...



Sorry, some members have serious tones.  I don't know they were joking, sarcastic, or angry.  I don't understand their points.  In the wedding, of course, I'm not going to get in the way, and it is understandable.  Even a professional unpaid photographer with 20+ years experience who was not hired for a wedding can not get in the way of a paid wedding photographer.  

The fashion show is not a wedding or a sporting event.  This guy was not wearing a tag or a vest.  He could have told me a reason, but he didn't.  I was standing on the left side of the runway.  There was guest standing in front of me, and another guest standing behind me.  This photographer, maybe he was amateur, professional, volunteer, or getting paid, he hadn't thought out his coordination.  I think he was not a professional but getting paid to shoot.  When he yelled at me,"EXCUSE ME!"  I had to walk away.  When fashion show got crowded, there were pushing, shoving, and getting out of hands.  Some of the videographers and photographers complained.  I think the whole organization sucks and wasn't planned out correctly.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 31, 2014)

tecboy said:


> When he yelled at me,"EXCUSE ME!" I had to walk away.



Lol.. my response probably would have been to turn around, smile, and say "Ok, your excused.  Anything else I can help you with?"


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## Steve5D (Jan 31, 2014)

Braineack said:


> next time bring an led flashlight and proceede to point it directly in his lens the entire show...





DiskoJoe said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > next time bring an led flashlight and proceede to point it directly in his lens the entire show...
> ...



Aside from proving that the person with the flashlight is an immature child, what would that accomplish?


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## Braineack (Jan 31, 2014)

Self gratification.

But I'm glad you think our police are immature.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 31, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > next time bring an led flashlight and proceede to point it directly in his lens the entire show...
> ...



What more would you really need to accomplish? I mean after that I'd be hanging up banners that read Mission Accomplished all day baby!

Lol.. kidding of course.  I guess for me it just depends on how the guy approaches it, if he asks me nice sure, I'll get out of his way.  I mean assuming you'd ever catch me dead at a fashion show of course.  If he's a jerk, well then no, I probably won't be very accomodating.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 1, 2014)

I think you're right Tecboy, seems likely that he was getting paid to take pictures but sure didn't seem to be acting like a professional. Doesn't help that things were so unclear and disorganized at the event, would have helped for hired photographers to be able to set up where they needed to be and attendees to know where they're allowed to shoot from. 

I suppose you could give them some feedback about what a madhouse it was with people jockeying for position etc. and ask for some guidelines. I'm not sure what else you could have done at the time since he came across like he was supposed to have access; if they don't issue credentials then there'd be no way to know if he was a hired photographer or what.


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## AlanKlein (Feb 1, 2014)

Of course we haven't heard his side.


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## Steve5D (Feb 1, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Self gratification.
> 
> But I'm glad you think our police are immature.



There was nothing stated about police doing it, so you've miserably failed to make any point. The comment was made regarding another photographer doing it. Any photographer who would do that is, indeed, a dick...


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## Steve5D (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> The person hired or not, has no right telling someone to move that has every right to be where they are.
> 
> The "professional" in this case was wrong.



Actually, if you reread the OP, it clearly states that the professional asked him to move. 

I'm having a hard time finding a problem with that...


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > The person hired or not, has no right telling someone to move that has every right to be where they are.
> ...



You think it was ok for the "professional" to ask the Op to move?


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## rexbobcat (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> You think it was ok for the "professional" to ask the Op to move?



I think it's okay if he asked.

If he demanded or just told him to move - I don't think that's very professional of him.


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## Braineack (Feb 1, 2014)

I do this in all forms of life.  I didn't like my cube, so I just found one I like and was like EXCUSE ME! and squatted.

when I'm driving, if I stop at a red, I drive in the turn lane, pull in front of the first car and yell MOVE! so I have the first go at green.

In the movie theater, if people are in my seats, I grab them by the legs, pull them off, and sit down.

You don't get anywhere in life being Beta.


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## Steve5D (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



Absolutely. Why not? _Asking _someone to do something is fine.

If I'm working, and someone is in my way, I'll ask them to move whether they're _also _working or not. The worst they can do is say "no".

Maybe I'm missing something, but can you explain exactly what the problem is with someone making a request?


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

If I show up late for an event, discover after the event has started that I didn't pick the best spot, that's my problem. If someone is already in the best spot I don't the right to ask them to get out. He could have simply worked beside the Op, but that didn't seem to be the case. If I was standing in the best spot even if I wasn't working and the hired photographer came over and told me to move, they would get a very simple no.  This didn't really sound like a request but more of a demand. It still comes down to the hired professional already being in the best spot to cover the event, and that wasn't the case, that's on him.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> If I show up late for an event, discover after the event has started that I didn't pick the best spot, that's my problem. If someone is already in the best spot I don't the right to ask them to get out. He could have simply worked beside the Op, but that didn't seem to be the case. If I was standing in the best spot even if I wasn't working and the hired photographer came over and told me to move, they would get a very simple no.  This didn't really sound like a request but more of a demand. It still comes down to the hired professional already being in the best spot to cover the event, and that wasn't the case, that's on him.




This just sounds like you enjoy being a dick to people. Actually, your post makes you sound exactly how you describe your feelings about the photographer discussed in the OP.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > If I show up late for an event, discover after the event has started that I didn't pick the best spot, that's my problem. If someone is already in the best spot I don't the right to ask them to get out. He could have simply worked beside the Op, but that didn't seem to be the case. If I was standing in the best spot even if I wasn't working and the hired photographer came over and told me to move, they would get a very simple no. This didn't really sound like a request but more of a demand. It still comes down to the hired professional already being in the best spot to cover the event, and that wasn't the case, that's on him.
> ...



So when I make a statement to someone the moderators threaten to ban me, and when someone makes a statement like this it's ok?

What I said is really quite accurate. Maybe you should just go back and read everything else I wrote, before calling me a dick.  Professionals should act like professionals. That means they should show up ahead of time, pick out the best spots to work from, make sure they are in the prime spot to do the job they have been hired to do. What the Op has described is someone not acting in a professional manner, and telling someone else with a camera to move, instead of trying to work with/beside them. The Op describes the photographer as running all over the place getting in everyone's way, how is that acting like a professional?  Good photographers blend into situations, they don't create them.


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## Overread (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> If someone is already in the best spot I don't the right to ask them to get out.



Says who? 

Whilst one should always conduct ones self in a polite and respectful manner there is no harm in asking someone to move if you wish to use the position they are in. They might agree and move - they might shift over and share the spot - they might say no. Whatever the result there is no harm in asking. 


The whole subject on if you're paid to be there nor not will vary depending on the specific situation. In some situations you'll not only have the right but be expected to be in a certain position (I doubt any wedding tog would sit back and let someone else take the group shot from the prime position). Whilst in others you might just be one of many (togs working on a sports pitch) and thus fall back on simply asking. 


And of course the other option is to find another spot. 

I don't quite see why we've 5 pages or more on this subject; it seems pretty clear cut.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

Professional courtesy and respecting other people, something that has become lost in this world. I have not walked into a situation and asked someone to get out of the way because I want the spot. It may be the way some people act, I'm not one of them. I arrive early and know where I have to be for the best shots, if I leave that spot and someone else steps in, too bad for me, that's the way it works. 

You're a moderator, five pages seems to be enough for you, just lock the thread. As you stated it's clear cut who's right, and has already been mentioned I enjoy being a dick while trying to pass along my point of view.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



I said your post makes you *sound *that way. Your tone in this thread has been very elitist and rude. If someone asks for your spot and you're just there for fun I don't see how being intentionally rude right back to the person is in any way more professional than them asking in the first place. You're criticizing the photographer for his behavior and then acting the exact same way right back...


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## manaheim (Feb 1, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



Speaking to the moderator comment, specifically...

No, it's not ok.

To everyone here, don't call people dicks, or anything like it.  Also don't suggest anyone MIGHT have been BEING a dick. While that is technically a different thing, it's close enough to just be called rude, and therefore not necessary.

So again, stop it.

K, return to your bickering.


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## manaheim (Feb 1, 2014)

Speaking to the other topic, we really have been going around and around on it, and honestly I think people are just being obtuse.

There is nothing wrong with asking someone something in a polite fashion, ever. The person can accept the suggestion or refuse it. No harm, no foul. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that's not acceptable.

What is in contention is really whether or not the "pro" has the "right" to push it further if, and when, the person who is being asked refuses.

Some people say no, others say yes.

I think yes, but I'm a part time pro.  Imagemaker says no, and he's been a full time pro for eons.  Unless there is another full time pro who can contest the point, I declare imagemaker the winner.


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## robbins.photo (Feb 1, 2014)

manaheim said:


> K, return to your bickering.



Ok, looks like the yellow caution flag has been lifted and the green bickering flag is out.  Ready, set.. BICKER!


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 1, 2014)

manaheim said:


> I think yes, but I'm a part time pro.  Imagemaker says no, and he's been a full time pro for eons.  Unless there is another full time pro who can contest the point, I declare imagemaker the winner.



I myself am not a professional but I've worked with many. Even while at some NFL games I've been offered great spots by professionals that were there to get paid just so I could get some shots. This is almost always the case. Being stubborn about a spot speaks more to the person's character than it does about professionalism in photography.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

It appears we aren't going to go any further with this thread. I'm quite used to reading the elitist card being pulled out when I try and make people understand how I see things from my own professional experiences.  What I run into are people that just haven't had the experience of working as photographers in a wide variety of situations.

I'm far from being elitist, and when I am working I show respect to everyone. I just don't expect people to have to move simply because I'm the professional at the event, it's still up to me to be prepared ahead of time. When I'm working around other professionals I expect the same respect and courtesy. When situations come up where there are a lot of amateurs in the room, it is still up to me to work around them.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > I think yes, but I'm a part time pro. Imagemaker says no, and he's been a full time pro for eons. Unless there is another full time pro who can contest the point, I declare imagemaker the winner.
> ...



I've worked as a photo co-ordinator at several World Championship events and part of the job is making sure that all the photographers get the spots they want, the other part is that I am also hired to shoot the event, I have given up many spots to other photographers, as I have mentioned it is a simple respectful thing to do. These are also accredited events so having to deal with amateurs doesn't happen very often.  Once the accredited photographers leave the designated photo zones they still are required to keep a low profile, not bother the spectators, and are required to move if they are in anyone's way. The ones that don't follow these guidelines are thrown out.  Respect and courtesy that what it all comes down to.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 1, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Speaking to the other topic, we really have been going around and around on it, and honestly I think people are just being obtuse.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with asking someone something in a polite fashion, ever. The person can accept the suggestion or refuse it. No harm, no foul. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that's not acceptable.
> 
> ...



I wasn't looking for a winner/loser on this, I was just trying to put across my opinion based on my personal experiences.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 1, 2014)

For the first half of the thread you sound like you're going to reject anyone's request simply for the sake of "I was here first and it's MINE so you can't have it!" I think you got your point across much more effectively in the last few posts. At any rate if I'm an amateur at an event and there's a paid photographer running around like a chicken with his head cut off and he rudely tells me to move... I might be a little annoyed but I'm still going to move. I'll at least give him/her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are new and just stressed out that they aren't getting good shots. Who knows? Who cares? If they think they can get a better shot where I'm standing then have at it. I don't see how it's a big deal to just move.


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## DaPOPO (Feb 1, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Self gratification.
> 
> But I'm glad you think our police are immature.



Hey now who's baggin on da cops!!!!!


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## robbins.photo (Feb 1, 2014)

DaPOPO said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Self gratification.
> ...




Burlap sack, a rock and a river.. best way to deal with.. oh.. wait.  Cops.  I thought you said cats.  Ok.. nevermind.  Carry on.

Lol


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 1, 2014)

Didn't think this would still be going... and not even locked yet. I don't have nearly the experience or expertise that Scott does but I've done the same thing - go early, find a good spot, camp out there for awhile. For me it has depended on the event, the venue, the crowd - some places only allow you at ice/event level with credentials; other places let fans stand all around. When I give up my spot I don't expect to necessarily come back to it and over time I think I got pretty efficient at getting the photos I want in a relatively short amount of time. 

If a so-called professional needed access to a particular spot I'd expect at most they'd ask something like can we switch places for a few minutes, get the shots they wanted, and move on; if the guy wanted that particular spot it wasn't very professional to expect to show up late and get a prime location. I've found sometimes you gotta work around and thru the crowd and get the photos you want with whatever you have to work with - crappy glass, low light, limited vantage points, kids running in and out of their seats...

If you don't have credentials and you're in an area where spectators aren't allowed to be, that's a different story (and security would probably be who's telling you to move).


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## grafxman (Feb 2, 2014)

IIRC the OP stated the guy was running around the room yelling for people to get out of his way. That doesn't sound very professional to me. On the other hand I would probably lend my spot to the jerk BRIEFLY realizing that he'll probably run across the room in a few seconds anyway. If he didn't leave soon I would ask for it back. If he didn't want to give it back I would probably stand in front of him.


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## Steve5D (Feb 2, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> If I show up late for an event, discover after the event has started that I didn't pick the best spot, that's my problem.



Agreed.

That's not what happened here. Nothing's been said about when the pro arrived...



> If someone is already in the best spot I don't the right to ask them to get out.



You have the right to ask them anything you want. They have the right to decline.

I've often had people in my way, and a simple "Excuse me", said with a smile on my face, works wonders.

Getting offended because someone asks you something is just silly...



> If I was standing in the best spot even if I wasn't working and the hired photographer came over and told me to move, they would get a very simple no.



And you would be walked around, assuming security personnel weren't brought into play. I would think a pro, who isn't working an event, would understand the importance of allowing the working pro to do his job. No wonder people jump in front of you while you're trying to work...



> This didn't really sound like a request but more of a demand.



Well, two things. First, we're only getting one side of the story. Second, what it "sounds like" could easily be lost on you. You mentioned earlier something about someone showing up late to a gig and losing the prime spot as a result. Seeing as that's not what happened here, one has to wonder if you're really paying attention...


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## robbins.photo (Feb 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> I've often had people in my way, and a simple "Excuse me", said with a smile on my face, works wonders.



Huh.. see me I usually keep some bacon in my pocket.  I throw it out a few feet away and then point it out to the person who's in my way.  "Say, isn't that bacon over there?"  When they go for the bacon, I take their spot.  Saves me all that smiling and being nice rigmarole.. lol.


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## Steve5D (Feb 2, 2014)

grafxman said:


> IIRC the OP stated the guy was running around the room yelling for people to get out of his way. That doesn't sound very professional to me. On the other hand I would probably lend my spot to the jerk BRIEFLY realizing that he'll probably run across the room in a few seconds anyway. If he didn't leave soon I would ask for it back. If he didn't want to give it back I would probably stand in front of him.



Cut & Paste from the OP:



> I was shooting at the fashion show last night.  This one photographer, I  think he got paid to shoot.  He asked me to move, so he could shoot in  my spot.  Does he has the right to tell me to move?



Nothing about anyone yelling there. The OP did, though, mention that the pro yelled at him. I'd be willing to bet that's because of noise level. The fashion shows I've been to have all had loud music playing. If you wanted to say something to someone else, you had to yell, or you wouldn't be heard.

The bottom line is that the answer is "Yes, he does have the right to ask you to move".

In fact, he has the right to ask you to juggle flaming chain saws while hopping up and down on one foot while kicking a puppy with the other. 

Doesn't mean you have to do it.

It takes a severely thin-skinned individual to get upset and offended by someone making a request...


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## Steve5D (Feb 2, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I've often had people in my way, and a simple "Excuse me", said with a smile on my face, works wonders.
> ...



Bacon?

See, I didn't know you weren't gonna' play fair. 

Bacon is the candy of all meats...


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## robbins.photo (Feb 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



Well as Miguel De Cervantes pointed out in his timeless classic Don Quixote, all is fair in the matters of love, war, and fashion photography.. lol.


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## IByte (Feb 2, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> then you should have throat punched him and kept shooting.



Out in the wild

Tonight's episode:  When photographers attacks!


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## tecboy (Feb 2, 2014)

Hmmm.... I have talked to some people in the fashion show.  Nobody yelled at me except this photographer.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 2, 2014)

I wouldn't expect a pro to yell at someone to get out of the way; maybe project their voice over the noise if they need to squeeze thru the crowd (I just say excuse me, no need to be rude); but not to yell _at_ a spectator to move, especially if attendees are allowed to take photos. I wouldn't think either whoever hired him or the event organizers would want a paid photographer to treat the people attending the event in a less than appropriate way. 

Since you're asking around maybe you'll find out who he was and what he was shooting for; if it was a one time thing I'd just let it go, if he keeps showing up at events and acting like this they might start getting complaints about him or you might consider saying something to the event organizers if need be. Or try finding other events to attend that have better control over the crowd, better organization, etc.


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## Steve5D (Feb 3, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> I wouldn't expect a pro to yell at someone to get out of the way; maybe project their voice over the noise if they need to squeeze thru the crowd...



And "projecting" the voice, in some environments, can only be accomplished by yelling.

Seriously, getting offended or upset over something like this is downright comical. Grow a set, move or not, and get on with your day...


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## bribrius (Feb 3, 2014)

yes. You are in the way.


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## Jamesaz (Feb 7, 2014)

Every type of event I've ever photographed,whether press conference, fashion show, sporting event (MLB, NCAA, NASCAR) or awards banquet or parade or whatever always had more than just one spot to shoot from. Sure, sometimes they are not equal but more angles and more frames make for happier clients. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tecboy (Feb 7, 2014)

Well, based on the discussion, this paid photographer is clearly unprofessional, impolite, and uncoordinated.  I have contacted the organizers and hopefully they will do something about it.


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