# Going Pro....or not.



## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

So. This is partly a rant and partly a question.

Been looking around for a pro in the area to assist/second shoot. Most of them are really no good. There are a few, though, who do really nice work. So I contacted everyone whose work I like enough to want to assist. I get more or less the same response from all of them: "We really like your work. But you'd have to have your own dSLR setup." Fair, I suppose. But on the other hand it raises two questions for me. One is, if I had $10k to drop on a good body or two, good glass, and more strobes than I have now, would I really be asking to assist? The other is, if all I had was a Rebel XTI and a 50mm plastic fantastic, would you really want me shooting your projects with my sub-par equipment? Bear in mind, these are people with studios, plenty of bookings, and of course multiple backup bodies. So if you if you really like my work and have an extra body or two lying around then where does the problem lie? This puts me in a rather obnoxious state of limbo. What if I just wanted to assist in the studio, or help schlep your stuff around on-location? Does not having a pro-level digital rig bar me from that as well? In theory, it would be possible for me to save money for quite some time or take out a loan to buy a setup, but if I did that you can bet your britches I'd be out carrying my own weight and competing with others for business. So what's a relatively broke, recent college grad to do?


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## abraxas (Jun 1, 2008)

So ask yourself why do you want to be somebody's butt-boy in the first place? Have you guts?  You talk the talk, but unless you can walk the walk, you've wasted an education. IMO.


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## Overread (Jun 1, 2008)

I think it is fair for them to expect you to have your own kit if they are single working pros (ie not a company which would probably be able to load out stock kit). As for the costs - best ask them what they think - a rebel with a good bit of glass can (in the right hands of course) get some impressive results.

Also - you say if you had the money for a full set of kit that you would not be wanting to assist to get experience - I don't get why though. Unless you live by the maxim that you won't upgrade you kit till you think your skills are good enough to warrent it then most people aim as high as they can with getting kit. Further there is a wolrd of difference with being good with a camera and being a good pro with a camera - working under set conditions to time and budget limitations is something that working as an assistant/understudy can give you and help you to avoid pitfalls.


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## D-50 (Jun 1, 2008)

I could understand a pro wanting an assistant with a decent DLSR (not a d40 or rebel xt) as well as some decent glass and an off camera flash but why would they want you to have a a lighting set up as well, or did I misread your post? Seems ridiculous to me. If they like you work why not let you use your current equiptment to assit, most likely you'll just be lugging around equiptment and holding reflectors all day anyway so what does your equiptment matter.


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## Overread (Jun 1, 2008)

I got the impression that they were only after the camera, flash and lens - not a full light setup - but that once alpha had saved/begged and load enough to get the first bit of kit that the remainder was only a small (comparativly speaking) increase from that


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

If I had a lot of money I would spend it on a digital MF rig...probably a Mamiya AFD + digi back. I have no need for a lot of the features that dSLR's afford. At least not right now. Truth be told I really don't want a dSLR. I rarely have a need to autofocus, shoot multiple fps, auto-bracket, etc. My money would largely be wasted on the features of a dSLR. If I went pro I wouldn't want to be shooting weddings all the time and campy family photos. I'm far more interested in beauty and editorial fashion. Which begs the question...why would I be interested in side shooting with someone who does work that I don't want to do professionally? Because not all of it is. Some more practice in a proper studio would be nice. So would spending time with people who have on-location lighting really nailed. And aside from the fact that I've taught Photoshop "professionally," some pro-level portfolio work under my belt would be nice aside from my personal projects. 

Maybe I'm just self-excluding. But I figure there's a lot to be gotten without the digi rig.


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## Overread (Jun 1, 2008)

Very true alpha - digital is very nice and easier to pick up than film - as well as cheaper on the old developing, so I can see why many pros are both using and encouraging its use (it also lets them keep a real time eye on what you are taking - with film they just don't know till after developing.
Have you tried finding an older photographer to follow - they might be more accepting of one wanting to use film as they might have once being film users themselves


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

Thought about it. May give it some more thought.


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## Overread (Jun 1, 2008)

more thought to following another or more thought on going digital?


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

Overread said:


> more thought to following another or more thought on going digital?



Following another. My quasi-mentor shoots exquisite LF portraiture. Which could be fun. The only time I ever tried to show her my work she gave me this very minimalist..."I like what you've done here" and I was thinking "but what am I doing wrong!!"


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## Overread (Jun 1, 2008)

Well go for it - if you already have good contact with her then try - nothing to really lose.


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## JIP (Jun 1, 2008)

My question is why in the world would a studio and wedding photographer want to hand over $2-5k to some unfamiliar noob who wants to tag along for free.  I know that sounds harsh but to them that is what you are.  I have shot weddings for 2 different places both were paid gigs and both places I worked for long term and both places required that I have a full professional setup and a full array of backup gear before I was even considered.  The only place that even had the possibility of their own gear to use was the one studio I worked for and only their full time photographers used that.  I do not think this should come as some kind of shock if you are serious about wanting to do this you should be prepared to buy the gear yo uneed to do the job. Both times it was necesarry to buy gear, when I first started and when I made he transition to digital I borrowed the money I needed to get the gear and I got it.  This may sound extreme borrowing and spending $5k+ for photography gear but I am serious about being a professional photographer and not some amatuer dabbling into getting paid for my hobby and I understand that noone is going to hand me the gear that I need to do this.


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

You ought to read my second post.

And like I said...if I had the money and wanted to buy that setup, I'd be shooting for myself.


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## That One Guy (Jun 1, 2008)

D-50 said:


> I could understand a pro wanting an assistant with a decent DLSR (not a d40 or rebel xt) as well as some decent glass and an off camera flash but why would they want you to have a a lighting set up as well, or did I misread your post? Seems ridiculous to me. If they like you work why not let you use your current equiptment to assit, most likely you'll just be lugging around equiptment and holding reflectors all day anyway so what does your equiptment matter.



just defending the XT and the D40 here:

i was always taught, in the film days, buy a cheap body and put your money in the glass.


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## That One Guy (Jun 1, 2008)

also:

i will assume that you know photography so why not go into business for yourself either PT or FT? you could do cookie cutter portraits outside to earn the cash for better/more equip.


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

That One Guy said:


> also:
> 
> i will assume that you know photography so why not go into business for yourself either PT or FT? you could do cookie cutter portraits outside to earn the cash for better/more equip.



I don't want to invest a bunch of money in buying a setup so that I can shoot things I don't want to shoot. It's neither a practical nor desirable means to my end.

Plus there's no market here for beauty or editorial fashion. What if I did buy a dSLR, shoot campy junk for a while, and then buy a digital MF rig. I wouldn't even have anything to use it for professionally.


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## Sw1tchFX (Jun 1, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Plus there's no market here for beauty or editorial fashion. What if I did buy a dSLR, shoot campy junk for a while, and then buy a digital MF rig. I wouldn't even have anything to use it for professionally.



Then it sounds like you might need to move to somewhere like LA if you want to do fashion and shoot medium format.


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

Sw1tchFX said:


> Then it sounds like you might need to move to somewhere like LA if you want to do fashion and shoot medium format.



I may be moving to the Bay area...

So that's a possibility but I'm not sure yet.


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## craig (Jun 1, 2008)

Have you checked out large commercial studios? When I was in the Home fashion industry there were many studios in your neck of the woods. A lot of set construction, but you also learn a ton about lighting. 

Love & Bass


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

No but I'll ask around. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## craig (Jun 1, 2008)

It has been years since I was in that industry. (insert sad smiley here) Wamsutta and all the big textile mills are down there. The studios were and hopefully still are in close proximity to them. 

Like I said a lot of set construction. Which does come in very handy. The work is done with hot lights. The key is learning how to shape block the light. Translates well into strobes and shooting editorial or more creative fashion work.

)'(


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## Alpha (Jun 1, 2008)

craig said:


> It has been years since I was in that industry. (insert sad smiley here) Wamsutta and all the big textile mills are down there. The studios were and hopefully still are in close proximity to them.
> 
> Like I said a lot of set construction. Which does come in very handy. The work is done with hot lights. The key is learning how to shape block the light. Translates well into strobes and shooting editorial or more creative fashion work.
> 
> )'(



I have a good friend whose father is a director based in Raleigh. He let me tag along at a shoot they happened to be doing near my university in Richmond this past year, which was really cool. I picked up some superb lighting ideas (like for ex. they covered an entire side of a house's windows with a huge f-ing scrim jim thing to soften the light coming in. Totally brilliant). I may give him a ring and see if he knows anyone in the area.


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## craig (Jun 2, 2008)

Excellent idea! Try and stay out of retail photography if you can. 

)'(


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## astrostu (Jun 2, 2008)

Okay, so I have a bit of harsh commentary here.  Just putting that warning up front.

I think you need to realize that you're probably NOT at a stage in your life where you can be as picky about what you want to do.  Photography is a difficult field to make room for yourself in because there are so many professionals and aspiring professionals already in it.  I don't think the majority can afford to only do the very few types of photography that they want in terms of being artsy, given your comments:



> I don't want to invest a bunch of money in buying a setup so that I can shoot things I don't want to shoot. It's neither a practical nor desirable means to my end.  *Plus there's no market here for beauty or editorial fashion.* What if I did buy a dSLR, shoot campy junk for a while, and then buy a digital MF rig. I wouldn't even have anything to use it for professionally.



If you want to be a photographer and there's a market for one type where you are and not another, then if you want to eat you don't have much of a choice.  You may just need to "whore" yourself out to do the campy stuff until you build up a better portfolio and equipment.  I think you're being naïvely idealistic here.

I also agree with JIP with a small addition - the professionals you're speaking with may see your lack of equipment as a lack of real dedication or interest.  Why should they invest their time and energy in someone who hasn't even bought themselves a decent camera setup?


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## Antithesis (Jun 2, 2008)

Having your own gear shows that you've made a pretty large financial commitment, plus your not going to constantly borrowing their gear and putting wear and tear on it. If you want to be a photographer for a living, you need atleast a basic set of equipment. You don't need to drop $10k on gear, but a slightly older pro body (1D Mk2 or D2H/X) and a couple pieces of decent glass and a flash are all you really need, or even just a decent prosumer body (D200 or 40D/5D) and a handful of primes. It may seem like a pile of money, but these are going to be tools you use to make a living. A rebel XT or w/e is going to break on you far faster than something intended for professionals. 

Having my own gear has gotten me invited to assist on two jobs in the last week. It will probably pay for itself by the end of the summer or sooner. It was a good investment I think.


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## Alpha (Jun 2, 2008)

astrostu said:


> I also agree with JIP with a small addition - the professionals you're speaking with may see your lack of equipment as a lack of real dedication or interest.  Why should they invest their time and energy in someone who hasn't even bought themselves a decent camera setup?



While I agree with the rest, this particular bit seems rather misplaced. How, perchance, might I have taken all the photos in my port that they "really like" without "a decent camera setup?" I can only apologize so much for shooting film...and, god forbid....in four different formats. Ought I also apologize for spending money on professional, reliable strobes and modifiers instead of a digital body? I mean sure, I could sell a Broncolor and buy a Canon, but I don't think I ought to be faulted or taken less seriously, provided I still do good work. Then again, I suppose the proof isn't actually in the pudding! 

Do I lack real dedication and interest in shooting weddings and family portraits? You bet I do! But I make up for it with equal fervor for studio work, lighting, and post-processing.


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## Nimitz (Jun 2, 2008)

Alpha: this is probably going to sound somewhat simplistic but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it. I learned photograhy the 'old-fashioned' way: I had fooled around with it as a hobby for a long time & then met a photographer I hired to do a shoot for me and we hit it off. I expressed my interest in becoming more than just a hobby and he took me under his wing. He expected me to get a set of my own equipment to work with & he made recommendations based on my budget & interests. He then became my mentor and I did a combination of working in his studio & on-location with him when I could plus he'd continually give me 'assignements' to do and then critque them. I never attended a formal photography school like it sounds you have. But one of the first lessons he taught me was this: don't shoot things you are not interested in - period. You won't be very good at it becuase your heart won't be in it. Now for me, that was easy because photography was not paying the bills while he was mentoring me but the main idea here is to find a photographer who has similar interests to yours and convince them to take you under their wing.

Research their work and when you go to meet him/her show that you really know their work. This is the same thing people who are looking for jobs with big companies do - research the company and during the interview demonstaerte you know about what the company does.

No one said it would be easy to find pro to mentor you but when you do it will pay dividends beyond your wildest dreams.  remember, you one have to find one willing to take you under their wing ...


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## Bifurcator (Jun 2, 2008)

I want to add my thoughts to this as I don't agree with most of the drone mentality that being implied and suggested here. Life is a dream and a pretty short one at that. Follow your heart - if it tells you to seek additional experience as a "butt-boy lacky" then do that. Get serious about it. Go visit those people you're writing to and make them see your point in a creative way. 


Keep Looking, Don't settle!




Stay hungry, stay foolish!


To answer your questions 





> One is, if I had $10k to drop on a good body or two, good glass, and more strobes than I have now, would I really be asking to assist? The other is, if all I had was a Rebel XTI and a 50mm plastic fantastic, would you really want me shooting your projects with my sub-par equipment?


I guess it's the opportunist and protectionist factors at play here. Part of what they're saying is that they're scared of you. I think most professional photographers started out romantical and/or idealistic in the beginning but when they realize the levels at which the competition exists and as they face the business end of it they gradually (or quickly) become opportunistic protectionists. I guess you're approaching people who have both feet on that side of the line already. Appealing to their romantical/idealistic natures would be an element of the solution equation here. That takes face-time imo though so you might think about trying to set that up. How badly do you want this?

One of my first pro gigs in the imaging & graphics industry was doing all the CG and FX work for a very healthy sized photo studio near where I live which specializes in weddings and portraiture (video & still). We've been friends ever since (I guess about 30 years now) winning more than a few awards together and I've watched the kind of "butt-boy" employees that he hires for set-up, camera operation, and the backup photographer team. They are the most non-threatening, barely talented enough to qualify, non-educated types that he can find (or that seek him out) - one of the guys is an excellent cartoonist tho  . I've never asked him why and in fact I've never really thought about it consciously until now, but the most reasonable explanation that comes to mind is that he's protecting his intellectual and creative superiority. If I wasn't adding something truly unique that he couldn't do himself I doubt we would have done business. He really does seem to be incorporating the "never give a sucker an even break" school of thinking to his business and I think this is really common in the photography biz in general even if they don't call it that or look at it in that way consciously. 

BTW, he supplies all equipment for all of his employees.  Really, anything else is absurd unless they're a really tiny operation. It would be like showing up to a television studio and being told to bring you're own $100,000 camera. In essence meaning they don't want you cuz they're scared of you or they don't feel they're getting enough out of the arrangement. Both of these things are perception based and if this is something you really want to do then I guess it's not too hard to bring at least one of these guys around to your way of thinking and creating the niche for yourself.


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## Alpha (Jun 2, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> post



Thanks.


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