# Putting a proposal together (help me!) :)



## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

Long post, sorry. If you read and help me out, you might just help me keep my job, so I'm throwing myself on your mercy!

I'm a longtime (since childhood) aspiring photographer, just about around the "advanced amateur" level with a lot to learn, but I'm finding myself in a position where I could be shooting helicopters outside the country, like...often. Regular basis. I'm a marketing collateral temp for a major helicopter company looking to go full time, and one of the things I'm doing is putting together a business case for a photo kit, with me as the operator. (If I'm the only in-house photographer, how can they fire me, that sort of thing). To do that, I need a ballpark idea of what it would cost to hire a pro in a major metropolitan area for a 2 day shoot on an uncontrolled worksite, either in Southern Oregon or international (I'm thinking Brazil). Finding realistic pricing information is so tough for beginning photographers. (How many invoices had you even *seen* before you got started, pros?) What would *you *charge, or what would you *expect to budget *for shoots like this? Ignore food/travel/insurance, as I would expense these things as well, and consider that a pro might be asked to shoot from a followcopter. I'm thinking two ranges--one for a relatively local day shoot, and one for a multi-day international shoot (like, I'm assuming powers of ten more expensive). If these numbers are high enough, I can potentially add more or higher quality lenses to my requisition. 

Understand that I'm not taking business away from pros--they're not hiring photographers for their jobs *at all, *really. When they hire a videographer for a trade video they sometimes contract them for stills as well, but not often. I would love to be in a position where I could bring my photographer brothers work, but this is a conservative company and acquiring new media assets is not something they take lightly, budget-wise.

Incidentally, my suggested kit for them was very conservative: a 7D, EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS USM, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM. Does this lens combo float your boat? I was thinking a fast wide zoom for ground coverage and aerial landscapes and the long zoom for aerial glamour shots. It'd be nice to get some input as I primarily shoot with primes and change lenses a lot.

Any help, even vague, would be gold. Thanks for reading.


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## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

Also, I know I'm a total noob. Longtime lurker tho. Would be happy to answer any questions/generally build up karma. You can see my crappy portfolio (such as it is) at needs met not by shifty tricks


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## tirediron (May 2, 2013)

Hmmmm kind of tough without knowing a lot more detail, but daily rate (8 hrs) would be $1000.  Add to that the rental of any specialized gear if applicable, and then the licensing for the imagery; that could be anything from $100 to $100,000 depending type of image and duration & scope of use.  Travel would be $500/day + $300/day, for food & hotel, plus incidentals (taxi, rental car, etc).  Additionally there would be the UPS/FED EX cost for shipping my gear to wherever...

So, a two day shoot in my area with say five images licensed for two years to a large company for all forms of use could run $6-7000...


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## KmH (May 2, 2013)

Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com


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## CCericola (May 2, 2013)

You'll want to get real quotes in writing. Company's accountants will and do check your data. Information from a non- professional forum will not be good enough.


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## vintagesnaps (May 2, 2013)

I think ASMP has a formula for determining cost of doing business etc. for photographers to use to figure out pricing. Some of the info. on their website is available to the public and I've found them to have some good resources. 

The only well-known photographer I'm familiar with that has done aerial photography is Vincent Laforet; he's done sports, tilt shift, etc. and I thought I saw on his site/blog some info. about the equipment he uses. (I don't know how he does all he does, but he does some cool stuff.)

From glancing at your site it seems like you have some ability, and it's somewhat refreshing on here to have someone be straightforward about being a longtime aspiring but still advanced amateur photographer, etc. My comments on this topic are more vague than gold but good luck.


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## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

CCericola said:


> You'll want to get real quotes in writing. Company's accountants will and do check your data. Information from a non- professional forum will not be good enough.



Thanks, but this is strictly non-citation. I'm not bidding against anyone, just trying to calibrate my own business case. Also, I was assuming that it would be dishonest to solicit quotes for a nonspecific job for research purposes. Appreciate the response


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## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

vintagesnaps said:


> I think ASMP has a formula for determining cost of doing business etc. for photographers to use to figure out pricing. Some of the info. on their website is available to the public and I've found them to have some good resources.
> 
> The only well-known photographer I'm familiar with that has done aerial photography is Vincent Laforet; he's done sports, tilt shift, etc. and I thought I saw on his site/blog some info. about the equipment he uses. (I don't know how he does all he does, but he does some cool stuff.)
> 
> From glancing at your site it seems like you have some ability, and it's somewhat refreshing on here to have someone be straightforward about being a longtime aspiring but still advanced amateur photographer, etc. My comments on this topic are more vague than gold but good luck.



I really appreciate your kind words. ASMP is a great resource that I was completely ignorant of; Vincent Laforet's website is similarly informative. I don't know why you're saying you're being vague--those are two perfectly concrete starting places for me. MUCH obliged.


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## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Hmmmm kind of tough without knowing a lot more detail, but daily rate (8 hrs) would be $1000.  Add to that the rental of any specialized gear if applicable, and then the licensing for the imagery; that could be anything from $100 to $100,000 depending type of image and duration & scope of use.  Travel would be $500/day + $300/day, for food & hotel, plus incidentals (taxi, rental car, etc).  Additionally there would be the UPS/FED EX cost for shipping my gear to wherever...
> 
> So, a two day shoot in my area with say five images licensed for two years to a large company for all forms of use could run $6-7000...



This is ballpark what I was looking at. These are some specific cost savings I can reference (licensing, creative fees, etc.) which will help convince the team above me to do as much imagery as possible in-house. Thank you! I appreciate you putting these ideas together.


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## tedisme (May 2, 2013)

Thank you!


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## The_Traveler (May 2, 2013)

Another item you might consider is the newish low-cost camera stabilization rigs (in the 7500 range) that would improve aerial shots I would image. (the name escapes right now)


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## curtyoungblood (May 2, 2013)

I think your quoted equipment is very under equipped. A 17-55 is only going to be useful if the helicopter is parked. I'd expect to use the 70-200 for aerial landscapes. I think that you're going to need so,etching like a 300 or 400 for the helicopter to helicopter shots. Also they really HAVE to buy two cameras. It would be soooo bad to coordinate all that helicopter stuff and not be able to shoot because a camera isn't working.


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## tedisme (May 3, 2013)

curtyoungblood said:


> I think your quoted equipment is very under equipped. A 17-55 is only going to be useful if the helicopter is parked. I'd expect to use the 70-200 for aerial landscapes. I think that you're going to need so,etching like a 300 or 400 for the helicopter to helicopter shots. Also they really HAVE to buy two cameras. It would be soooo bad to coordinate all that helicopter stuff and not be able to shoot because a camera isn't working.



I'm expecting to be *mostly* shooting parked and just-up craft. That said, I'm very close to recommending the 7D *and* the 5D Mk III so I can mount two zooms and not have to switch lenses. I'm hesitant to push them towards the Mk II given the slightly poorer AF performance.

Re: being underequipped, I'm nervous about the size of the 70-200 already (having worked with one before), are there good compact zooms over 200 on the long end? Also, given that I'm not going to have to shoot past wings, why would a wider zoom be useless in the air? The 7D is a crop sensor and I will need to get some wider aerial shots. I was kind of thinking that 80mm+ was a nice zoomy upper range. If you wouldn't mind educating me.  I'd love to know exactly what I should be recommending.

Incidentally, the only really gorgeous air-to-air photography we have have at the moment was mostly shot on a 7D with the 24-105mm f/4L. It's true that the closest shots (whole-craft-spanning, not like closeups inside the cockpit) were taken right at the long end. (And gosh that long end is surprisingly sharp.) I was sort of thinking that with the 7D's crop and fast AF, that cropped 320mm on the long end would be *more* than enough zoom. (Given that I don't need to get much closer, I was actually thinking of mounting the 70-200 on the 5D...after all, 105*1.6 is less than 170.) My initial request was going to be for a 7D and a 24-105, but I had a hard think about it and decided I wanted faster lenses for potential nighttime shoots and video.

I'm not trying to argue, I just want to let you know where I'm coming from so I can learn better!


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## tedisme (May 3, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Another item you might consider is the newish low-cost camera stabilization rigs (in the 7500 range) that would improve aerial shots I would image. (the name escapes right now)


I'm trying to end-run that with IS and quick shutter speeds. From what I've heard in my Google travels, it sounds like vibration is less of a problem than you'd think, and wind is much more of one. That said, I haven't been up in a helicopter yet!


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## tedisme (May 3, 2013)

curtyoungblood said:


> I think your quoted equipment is very under equipped. A 17-55 is only going to be useful if the helicopter is parked. I'd expect to use the 70-200 for aerial landscapes. I think that you're going to need so,etching like a 300 or 400 for the helicopter to helicopter shots. Also they really HAVE to buy two cameras. It would be soooo bad to coordinate all that helicopter stuff and not be able to shoot because a camera isn't working.


I note that you actually own the 70-200 f/2.8. Do you mind if I ask which version (non-IS, IS, or IS II)? Has your experience with it been good?


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## tedisme (May 3, 2013)

By the way, I'm moving towards recommending two bodies, a crop and a full frame (probably 7D and 5D Mk III) which bumps the EF-S lens out of the ranking. I'm still considering the 70-200 F/2.8 (probably the IS II version) with the often-combined 16-35 2.8 II OR the 17-40 F/4. The tradeoffs between those last two are pretty obvious: speed versus range. I still expect to have need of a good wide angle lens and a 7D's crop would make that 16-35 more like 56mm on the long end. My config would therefore be a 7D with the 16-35mm and a 5Dmk3 with the 70-200, which I think gives me good coverage. (I can always swap those two lenses to instantly get both a wider and longer config!) How does this sound? Am I missing something major? (Also, I need to get rubber rings for shooting through glass.) Edit: I can also buy a teleconverter if needs be.


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## curtyoungblood (May 3, 2013)

I have the IS version 1.  I love it.  It is a really great lens.My thought was that it would be difficult to get two helicopters close enough together for the 70-200 to get everything you want in the air. A teleconverter may be a cheap alternative also.Something to keep in mind: you're trying to sell yourself as the guy who can take the pictures.  If you lowball on the equipment and don't get what you need to do the job excellently, then you're not gonna be that valuable anymore.


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## tedisme (May 3, 2013)

curtyoungblood said:


> I have the IS version 1.  I love it.  It is a really great lens.My thought was that it would be difficult to get two helicopters close enough together for the 70-200 to get everything you want in the air. A teleconverter may be a cheap alternative also.Something to keep in mind: you're trying to sell yourself as the guy who can take the pictures.  If you lowball on the equipment and don't get what you need to do the job excellently, then you're not gonna be that valuable anymore.



You're right. Of course, anything I put together is going to wildly exceed the quality of what they've already got.  That said, I'm going to be dealing with helicopters, not planes, and any follow chopper is going to get *relatively* close.... Still, what other lenses should I be looking at? I've never had a chance to play with anything longer than the 70-200 so my expertise is pretty much nil there.


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## tedisme (May 24, 2013)

If anyone's curious, I ended up requesting and getting a 6D and a 7D with a 16-35 and a 70-200 2.8 IS. Thanks for your help everybody


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## compassrose (May 27, 2013)

Hello! Newbie here! This calculator was helpful for me when getting a proposal together. May not be what you need but thought I would post it. https://nppa.org/calculator


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