# First Business Meeting



## etnad0

The February date for our new photography business is in full swing. I gave up 30% of my previous 80% share to a photographer that wants to go into business but isn't as business minded as he'd like to be. He's coming on board with his equipment and knowledge of photography which will be coupled with my business know how. We got a lot done last night including:


Business Card Designs
Employee Uniforms
Employee Requirements
Shop Layout
Shop Image
Daily Operating Budget
Hours of Operation
Ownership Readjustment

Finally and most important, we agreed that our main focus should be customer service and not photography. With the plan we have in place, taking a $10 photo will come with a level of customer service that will make people feel like they are taking a $1,000 photo. We also figured out that we need to limit the time spent between photographer and customer to 3 minutes per $20 they spend. Doesn't sound like a lot of time to give someone $1,000 level customer service, but I can't reveal the details to that. Let's just say that from the time they come in to the time they leave, they will have someone giving them 100% personal attention and us photographers are only a small part of the experience. 

Basically for my 30% share he's bringing in his camera, full strobe set up, which brings us to 2 setups (1 continuous and 1 strobe). He's bringing his backgrounds, props, and experience. Why would I give up 30% of my share? Because 50% of $400 is more than 80% of $200 (example). With an extra camera we can make double the amount of money in the same amount of time. It also allows me to maintain control of the company since a majority vote is required to make decisions. Majority is based on ownership percentage. Ties result in postponed decisions until the next meeting. If my two partners decide they want to do something off the wall crazy, I can block it until we come to an agreement. If I decide to do something off the wall crazy, they can block me. However, if either of them votes with me it's an automatic win. Everybody is good with this new arrangement, so that is one less thing to worry about. 

We are all going out next weekend to scout the location since the new partner hasn't seen it yet. He knows me and about the success I've had business wise, so he was on board before I ever gave him the details of the business. Our strategy is to control every entrance to the location through the ticket booths. A few well placed lunches, some smooth talking, and getting in good with the owner should put us in position to get our discount cards distributed at the gate as people pay the entry fee. We figured that would be much more effective than handing out fliers as people pass by. 

Part of the reason for writing this is because I just wanted to tell someone how much progress we are making lol... and the other reason is for the business noobs that don't have a clue where to start. The pre-planning process is more important than what you do after the business opens the doors. If you pre-plan thoroughly, you won't be caught off guard by much. We still have at least 2 more meetings and a ton of email to send back and forth before February.


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## CCericola

You have been a busy bee! No need to defend your actions about giving a new partner 30%. It's a part of doing business and seems to be a very smart move on your part. Make sure your lawyer puts in the contract that the 30% goes back to you or you have first dibs to buy him out if he leaves (My dad learned that one big time)

I'm so excited for you. I have to convince my husband we need to take a trip out to Vegas. Maybe I can find him a music industry expo or Microsoft seminar to go to out there. 

Keep us posted on your progress!


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## tirediron

Certainly sounds like you're putting a lot of thought into the pre-planning; kudos for that!  I'm not sure I understand the reference to ticket-booths (does this relate to an earlier post which I have forgotten?  If so, perhaps add a link to that post?).  When you say 'employee uniforms' do you mean actual uniforms or just a dress code?


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## o hey tyler

What lenses and strobes are you going to get prior to February?


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## etnad0

CCericola said:


> You have been a busy bee! No need to defend your actions about giving a new partner 30%. It's a part of doing business and seems to be a very smart move on your part. Make sure your lawyer puts in the contract that the 30% goes back to you or you have first dibs to buy him out if he leaves (My dad learned that one big time)
> 
> I'm so excited for you. I have to convince my husband we need to take a trip out to Vegas. Maybe I can find him a music industry expo or Microsoft seminar to go to out there.
> 
> Keep us posted on your progress!



Thanks. I wasn't really defending them, more explaining them before someone asked the question. I actually wrote the Operating Agreement, which is still being worked on. It states that nobody can sell or transfer their share without first offering it to the other owners. Both owners have to know about the intent to sell or transfer 90 days in advance and no owner can buy more than 50% of the share unless the other owner turns down the offer. So if he or the other partner wanted to sell, I can buy half of what they are selling and if my other partner turns it down, I can buy the whole thing. It ensures I maintain a controlling share of the company. Great advice though.

I'll definitely keep everyone posted.


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## etnad0

tirediron said:


> Certainly sounds like you're putting a lot of thought into the pre-planning; kudos for that!  I'm not sure I understand the reference to ticket-booths (does this relate to an earlier post which I have forgotten?  If so, perhaps add a link to that post?).  When you say 'employee uniforms' do you mean actual uniforms or just a dress code?



The flea markets/swap meets out here cost to get in. There is a previous post on it but I have to dig it up. As far as "uniforms" it's both actually. I think we are going to buy the uniforms, but they aren't uniforms in the traditional sense. We are hiring 2 female models. The attire has to be sexy, but not so sexy that families feel uncomfortable bringing their kids. We found some good examples that we are going to go with. 







We figure it's a good cross between sexy and professional. The reason we are buying is because if we leave it up to the girls, sooner or later someone will cross the borderline with sexy clothes. All of the models, receipts, order forms, etc. will be bilingual since 80% of our customer base speaks Spanish.

Drunk men and sexy women are a great combination. The place we are at sells beer and lots of it.

The compensation also includes and hourly + bonus goals for the day.


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## etnad0

o hey tyler said:


> What lenses and strobes are you going to get prior to February?



I have to grab a 50mm prime and I know he has some. Our equipment meeting is sometime next week after we do the recon. He has strobes, so we may end up buying the kind he has or may choose another brand. Not 100% sure yet, but it did come up last night. The equipment is pretty much the last thing on our list since it doesn't take as much thought to go to the store and pick something up based on suggestions that I've seen from people here. I hope that came out right.


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## Robin Usagani

Can you take good pics? Can he?  That is the big key ingredient.


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## o hey tyler

etnad0 said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> What lenses and strobes are you going to get prior to February?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to grab a 50mm prime and I know he has some. Our equipment meeting is sometime next week after we do the recon. He has strobes, so we may end up buying the kind he has or may choose another brand. Not 100% sure yet, but it did come up last night. The equipment is pretty much the last thing on our list since it doesn't take as much thought to go to the store and pick something up based on suggestions that I've seen from people here. I hope that came out right.
Click to expand...


This statement kind of tells me that you aren't up to speed with photography where you should be. You should know what lenses to use, and why before opening a business. You should also have a good understanding of lighting as well. 

So far you have a T2i and Kit lenses, that's very far from professional. It's great that you have a business plan and everything, but a knowledge of photography, lighting, and photographic equipment is also key. So I think you are a bit ahead of yourself in my opinion.


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## etnad0

Schwettylens said:


> Can you take good pics? Can he?  That is the big key ingredient.



Yes and Yes, but you are wrong, pictures are only 10% of a picture business. Ask McDonald's if it's more important to run good business or make good burgers. I'm sure you can point me to 1,000 burger places that make better burgers, but don't have anywhere near the success as McDonald's. 

The last business me and one of my partners was in, we had 3 competitors people had to go through before they got to us. We smashed the competition because we spoke English and hired someone Spanish. The other guys were Asians that didn't speak either very well. LOL. I'm assuming that by your comment that you are photography minded like my new partner? Not a bad thing, but sometimes the craft keeps you blind to the business and vice versa, which is why we make a great team.

Our business is the equivalent to a photo booth at a wedding or a Glamour Shots in a mall, but without the cheesiness. Once we take care of the necessary paper work, I'll share our business card that I designed yesterday.


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## o hey tyler

That McDonalds analogy is perhaps the worst analogy I've ever heard. 

Have fun with your dollar menu photos.


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## etnad0

> This statement kind of tells me that you aren't up to speed with photography where you should be. You should know what lenses to use, and why before opening a business. You should also have a good understanding of lighting as well.



No offense, but I assume you didn't bother to read or comprehend what I wrote. I specifically said we're saving equipment meeting for last since he has what we need. My setup will likely be a duplicate of his. He recently closed down his business because he was focused on equipment and photography, not business. He'll handle the what lenses to use and why before we get started. He's in charge of daily setup. I have a pretty good understanding of it, but I'm not expert.



> So far you have a T2i and Kit lenses, that's very far from professional. It's great that you have a business plan and everything, but a knowledge of photography, lighting, and photographic equipment is also key. So I think you are a bit ahead of yourself in my opinion.



We actually have a lot more than that with last night's addition of the new partner. Let me say it again, he's the photo pro. I do business. The other partner is a retoucher/editor. Everyone is doing what they do best. While that happens, we are all going to learn from each other, which will make us stronger in the areas that we are lacking. If I didn't think knowledge of photography was key, I would have kept my 30%.

As far as the T2i, the average person doesn't know the difference between a T2i and a 5D. Maybe I'm wrong, but haven't you also stated that the person behind the camera is more important than the equipment? Which is it, if you don't mind me asking? You seem to be changing your story now.


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## Robin Usagani

Based on what I read, your friend is a moron for being OK getting only 30% when he has all the equipment and knowledge to take photos.  Maybe should be the other way around?   You can be his manager and take 30% cut.


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## etnad0

o hey tyler said:


> That McDonalds analogy is perhaps the worst analogy I've ever heard.
> 
> Have fun with your dollar menu photos.



Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not. Look at the movie industry, look at fast food, look at clothing lines, look at Microsoft. Lot's of people make better stuff than most of the huge companies, but they think like you, which is why they aren't as big. 

Compare the budget of Paranormal Activity 1 to Pluto Nash, then look who made more money. Maybe you just don't get it... Business is 90% marketing and getting people to believe what you want them to believe. 10% is the actual product. Example... the Snuggie. It's a blanket with sleeves modeled after a hospital gown. I bought one for my wife and she doesn't even use it, but she really wanted it because of the commercials making it look so comfortable. She uses a blanket pretty much on a regular basis. I can give you more examples of the marketing being a major factor behind success and not necessarily skill or product.


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## etnad0

Schwettylens said:


> Based on what I read, your friend is a moron for being OK getting only 30% when he has all the equipment and knowledge to take photos.  Maybe should be the other way around?   You can be his manager and take 30% cut.



He has equipment but doesn't know how to run a business. We are going into business with or without him. He has no choice but to take 30%. He just closed his business down because he failed at the business side of it. He's a great photographer in many people's opinion, but he admits that he doesn't know the business side. I also have all the cash that we need to make it happen. So he's pretty smart to take 30% because his credit is shot from his last business and he can't get the cash to start another. How much money do you think the people at K Mart and Walmart get for taking pics all day? How much do you think the guy makes that sets the cameras? I think you are confusing what we are going to do with a super high level of professional photography. 

You are free to think whatever you want, but do you own a business? Have you ever owned a business? Until you do, not much you can say to someone that does own something and does very well in what I do. You also seem like a moron because you don't comprehend very well. I have an idea of what I'm doing as far as photography. Doesn't take much to snap off a photo in a studio where everything is preset, but just in case I'm wrong, I'm going to call my ex who use to take pics at Baby's R Us and knew nothing about photography. I'll also stop by K Mart and ask those guys. LOL... those two examples are exactly what we will be doing as our main business.


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## o hey tyler

I'm not saying that there's no room for business in the equation. But what I am saying is that you have a very basic understanding of photography, composition, lighting, and exposure. 

Lots of people, especially ones with business degrees and a passion for photography think that they can get by with crappy photos that are processed to death. I feel like you have the same impression. Especially from what I've seen of your photography so far. 

Do what you want. It'll probably end in a lawsuit.


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## Robin Usagani

I just dont get why you are sharing all of this info?  You gave this info like you are somebody we know.  I really have no idea what is the point of this thread.


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## etnad0

Schwettylens said:


> I just dont get why you are sharing all of this info?  You gave this info like you are somebody we know.  I really have no idea what is the point of this thread.



Then why are you reading or responding when I gave the reason in the very first post... just because I wanted to and for the noobs that think it's as easy as just getting money, equipment, and opening doors. It's also an update to a previous post I made several days ago asking a question. Comprehension is an awesome thing to have.


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## etnad0

o hey tyler said:


> I'm not saying that there's no room for business in the equation. But what I am saying is that you have a very basic understanding of photography, composition, lighting, and exposure.



Yep, you are VERY correct. However, my basic is more than the average person. I'm basically going to be a point and click guy now because he will be setting up the studio because photography is something he's invested a lot more time, energy, and money learning than I have. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but he's just way more advanced at it. I have enough knowledge to be a button clicker and learn as I go.



> Lots of people, especially ones with business degrees and a passion for photography think that they can get by with crappy photos that are processed to death. I feel like you have the same impression. Especially from what I've seen of your photography so far.
> 
> Do what you want. It'll probably end in a lawsuit.



What you've seen is point and shoot and some play around with toys while admittedly learning the controls on a new camera that I got on the 1st of this month. I haven't even had it 3 weeks, but by the time February rolls around I'll be good enough to push buttons in a studio like a mindless drone lol. I'm not worried about a law suit since even the best businesses have them. I expect negativity from jealous people that likely don't have the resources to do what I do. Again, I'll address your comprehension skills. There is a 3rd partner involved that went to school for photography and he is a PROFESSIONAL RETOUCHER and he will be handling the editing of ALL photos. Let me break it down in preschool terms.

1) One person has the photo and lighting knowledge.
2) One person has the editing knowledge.
3) One person (me) has the business knowledge and the money.

It's not a one man show even though you seem to think it is 100% based on what I know about photography. I know enough to bring in people that know more than me. Again, back to McDonalds. There is a reason that there is a cashier, a cook, and janitor. It takes them all to make sure the business functions. I'll let the photographer do what he does, the editor do what he does, and they let me run the business side of it.


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## cgipson1

Flea markets.... booze, horny men and bimbo's....  pre-fab studio.. and a business "expert"?  good luck...  lol! That is real ambition! No doubt you will sell "ART" photos also?


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## etnad0

cgipson1 said:


> Flea markets.... booze, horny men and bimbo's....  pre-fab studio.. and a business "expert"?  good luck...  lol! That is real ambition! No doubt you will sell "ART" photos also?



Pure genius... and yes people do sell art there. Live bands perform there. It's basically an ongoing concert on the weekends. Being smart in business isn't about what setting you choose, it's about being successful in the setting you choose. I could set up in a high class part of town, but why pay more money for less traffic? Makes no sense at all whatsoever. You set up in an untapped market where people already are. 

My other business was in a place similar to this, selling corny hip hop jewelry and shoes. Long story short, $800 - $2,500 per day depending on the season and we were open 6 days/week. Rent was $500/month. Summer and Christmas were the busiest times of year. A family member on the other hand was "above" that according to her. She also said we shouldn't open up shop in that kind of neighborhood. Long story short on that, she went out of business in less than 6 months in her high rent, high class area of town, and well we made money doing it until we decided to switch to the publishing business. We've made far more money in publishing which basically runs on autopilot. 

If this business doesn't work in the long run, ask me if I'm going to be upset. LOL. It's just money and I'll have another royalty check to blow on something else the month after. The fact is, if I don't try I don't know if it fails or succeeds. What I do know is that I won't regret trying, but I will regret not trying.


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## camz

I'll have to agree with the OP that business is the majority that builds a photography business. Any business for that matter. There's two problem statements being addressed here.  One party is talking about good photography, and the other party(the OP and some) is talking about good business.  Ideally it would go hand in hand as most successful businesses have good product...but not all.  Look at McDonald's like the OP mentioned...that stuff is empty junk. But they're not in the food industry and their target market is not to make people healthier.  Their target market is towards the uneducated about health and to grow in the real estate market.  They maybe devils to some eyes, but the bottom line and profit margins are up the roof.    

Good photography is good photography.  Business is business. 

Op, you pull of a few minute session and transform it to a $1000 dollar product...that's hell of a profit margin.  I don't know too many people who can do that. That's where I'm scratching my head.


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## Robin Usagani

etnad0 said:


> What I do know is that I won't regret trying, but I will regret not trying.


Die rich or die trying. - Fifty cent.


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## etnad0

camz said:


> I'll have to agree with the OP that business is the majority that builds a photography business. Any business for that matter. There's two problem statements being addressed here.  One party is talking about good photography, and the other party(the OP and some) is talking about good business.  Ideally it would go hand in hand as most successful businesses have good product...but not all.  Look at McDonald's like the OP mentioned...that stuff is empty junk. But they're not in the food industry and their target market is not to make people healthier.  Their target market is towards the uneducated about health and to grow in the real estate market.  They maybe devils to some eyes, but the bottom line and profit margins are up the roof.
> 
> Good photography is good photography.  Business is business.
> 
> Op, you pull of a few minute session and transform it to a $1000 dollar product...that's hell of a profit margin.  I don't know too many people who can do that. That's where I'm scratching my head.



You're exactly right. I'm going into business with a good photographer and him having failed at his business now realizes that it's about good business, not just good photos. People don't seem to get that point. As you stated good business and good photography should go hand in hand. 

Maybe I misunderstood you about the $1,000 product or you misunderstood me. What we are going to do is provide a level of customer service that makes someone feel like they are buying a $1,000 product, even if they are only spending $10. How do we pull that off? 

1) Beautiful, nicely dressed women that cater to Spanish and English speaking customers. (Cost To Us: Hourly Employee)
2) Restaurant type menus that look classy. (Cost To Us: 1 Time Printing)
3) Bottled water or Sparkling Cider served in a wine glass while they wait (Cider Cost To Us: $6 per 10 customers. Water Cost To Us: $5 per 20 customers).
4) Jazz or other soft music playing low to set atmosphere. (Cost To Us: Nothing)

The employees will pretty much see them through the entire process from walk in, ordering, photos if they can't speak English, and finally proofing. We are still working out the kinks, but that's how we plan to offer a high level of service to make a good impression and make people feel like they are spending a boat load of cash.

The basic digital package will be 3 poses and delivered on CD. Add $2.00 if they want us to email them the pics in addition. $2.00 per extra CD. $2.00 per extra pose. $2.00 to add custom text on the photo. We have several more upsell options as well. They may come in for a $10 picture, but the atmosphere is aimed at getting them to spend $20+ before they leave.


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## etnad0

Schwettylens said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I do know is that I won't regret trying, but I will regret not trying.
> 
> 
> 
> Die rich or die trying. - Fifty cent.
Click to expand...


I think that's the wrong quote. LOL

Get Rich or Die Trying...


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## tirediron

etnad0 said:


> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...


 Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.


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## etnad0

tirediron said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
Click to expand...


I feel sorry for people like you that ASSUME you know how a product is going to turn out before the first picture is ever taken. I feel sorry for people like you that only spew hate and negativity anytime someone wants to run a business their own way. I feel sorry for people like you because you'll likely end up working for someone like me. LOL.

Furthermore, I'm not taking wedding pics or professional model head shots. We are shooting people that want to give pics to friends and family without spending hundreds of dollars to do so. You feel free to cater to the high end markets and we'll cater to the poor and middle class. Once I make my money I'll hire you for $20/hour to give me business advice so I'll know exactly WHAT NOT TO DO with my business. LOL.


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## 2WheelPhoto

Interesting thread


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## camz

tirediron said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
Click to expand...


Tirediron, I think his product is more related to customer service then photography from how I see it.  The photography part maybe impartial to the experience of it, but its what brings the customer's in the door, and they come out with pictures feeling like a million bucks.

Op, I see what this is.  It's like a night club/dance club where their product is sex and alcohol.  It's not dancing. The dancing is the incentive, but the motive is something else.  My question is if you're making them feel like a thousand bucks, why charge so little.  Why not charge them a thousand bucks worth?  I'm assuming your going for volume?

Edit: Missed your comment about target market.  Ignore my last question there.


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## o hey tyler

etnad0 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I feel sorry for people like you that ASSUME you know how a product is going to turn out before the first picture is ever taken.
Click to expand...


Well, your portfolio speaks for itself IMO IMHO TBQH. 

Where Professional Models Meet Model Photographers - ModelMayhem


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## etnad0

camz said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tirediron, I think his product is more related to customer service then photography from how I see it.  The photography part maybe impartial to the experience of it, but its what brings the customer's in the door, and they come out with pictures feeling like a million bucks.
> 
> Op, I see what this is.  It's like a night club/dance club where their product is sex and alcohol.  It's not dancing. The dancing is the incentive, but the motive is something else.  My question is if you're making them feel like a thousand bucks, why charge so little.  Why not charge them a thousand bucks worth?  I'm assuming your going for volume?
> 
> Edit: Missed your comment about target market.  Ignore my last question there.
Click to expand...


Yep, you got it 100%. People don't want to create a high end feel in a low income neighborhood. They usually put up a crappy business with crappy customer service in these types of neighborhoods. Figured I'd try something different.


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## etnad0

o hey tyler said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel sorry for people like you that ASSUME you know how a product is going to turn out before the first picture is ever taken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, your portfolio speaks for itself IMO IMHO TBQH.
> 
> Where Professional Models Meet Model Photographers - ModelMayhem
Click to expand...


Yep, it's all point and shoot portfolio with S5100 while I was really learning the basics. If you bothered to look, those pics are 8 months old and my first attempt at a photo shoot with actual people. The fact is, I have 10 shoots lined up between now and February so I can work on getting better. However, as I said before your comprehension skills need work since I'm not in charge of setting up the shots for the business. What don't you get about that? LOL

Maybe you should share with us how you run your business... When you have one to tell us about, let me know. LOL


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## c.cloudwalker

Not that this is the kind of photography I would want to do but you sure seem to have your ducks in a row.

Best of luck to you.


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## rexbobcat

etnad0 said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns?  I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> 
> 
> Tirediron, I think his product is more related to customer service then photography from how I see it.  The photography part maybe impartial to the experience of it, but its what brings the customer's in the door, and they come out with pictures feeling like a million bucks.Op, I see what this is.  It's like a night club/dance club where their product is sex and alcohol.  It's not dancing. The dancing is the incentive, but the motive is something else.  My question is if you're making them feel like a thousand bucks, why charge so little.  Why not charge them a thousand bucks worth?  I'm assuming your going for volume?Edit: Missed your comment about target market.  Ignore my last question there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, you got it 100%. People don't want to create a high end feel in a low income neighborhood. They usually put up a crappy business with crappy customer service in these types of neighborhoods. Figured I'd try something different.
Click to expand...

 So you're a huckster?


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## etnad0

> So you're a huckster?



I'm guessing you don't actually own a business either or if you do, you're not making much money LOL.


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## rexbobcat

etnad0 said:


> So you're a huckster?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you don't actually own a business either or if you do, you're not making much money LOL.
Click to expand...

 Ah. So you are a huckster.It's all cool.Sometimes if you don't have the talent, schmoozing works.  

Also, P.T. Barnum.

"There's a sucker born every minute."


----------



## tirediron

camz said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. *You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not*. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns? I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tirediron, I think his product is more related to customer service then photography from how I see it. The photography part maybe impartial to the experience of it, but its what brings the customer's in the door, and they come out with pictures feeling like a million bucks.
Click to expand...

how can there be good customer service with a poor product?  The excuse that it is acceptable for it to be of a lesser quality because it's not a wedding or portrait is just that.  An excuse.


----------



## etnad0

rexbobcat said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you're a huckster?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you don't actually own a business either or if you do, you're not making much money LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah. So you are a huckster.It's all cool.Sometimes if you don't have the talent, schmoozing works.
> 
> Also, P.T. Barnum.
> 
> "There's a sucker born every minute."
Click to expand...


Sounds like the words of a jealous loser to me. As I suspected. You have no talent and no money and no business sense. Sucks to be you. LOL.

Let me also add that you should probably learn how to add a TITLE tag to your website before trying to give me business advice because having "Untitled Page" showing is very unprofessional and the first sign that you don't even know something as simple as putting your own name on your website. The fact that you are too lazy to categorize your blog post or add tags or even a title tells me all I need to know about your business sense. Good luck with that. LOL


----------



## etnad0

tirediron said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Then why are you in this business Mr. Burns? I feel sorry for people like you who think that providing a mediocre product is acceptable as long as you get your money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tirediron, I think his product is more related to customer service then photography from how I see it. The photography part maybe impartial to the experience of it, but its what brings the customer's in the door, and they come out with pictures feeling like a million bucks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how can there be good customer service with a poor product?  The excuse that it is acceptable for it to be of a lesser quality because it's not a wedding or portrait is just that.  An excuse.
Click to expand...


Prove it. Show me a single shot from the person in charge of setting up the pictures that is of poor quality. I'm guessing you're slow since you obviously don't read or comprehend much since I've said it multiple times. I'm running the business part of the business. The photographer is running the photography part of the business. I love your ignorance and jealousy. Makes me :lmao:. I understand why people like you sit on forums and contribute nothing but negativity. You hate your life and the fact that you can't do what others do, so you sit behind a computer screen wishing you could run a successful business. I can AFFORD to try the business and fail. 

Please keep the hate coming because it's soooo encouraging. I know for a fact that you wish you could start a business to have a product to sell, but the fact is that if your "quality" work was worth anything at all, you could get enough money to start your own business and not worry about what I'm doing with my money and time. I'm loving the fact that you hate it so much. You're really going to hate it when people love their pictures and start telling other people to come get pictures from us. 

In fact, let's put your money where your mouth is. February 1, 2012 - March 1, 2012, lets see who makes the most money from photography. Let's see who gets the most POSITIVE feedback from customers. The loser has to make a video destroying their camera. The fact about business is that the customer decides what the customer wants and likes, not you or me. So put up or shut up.


----------



## tirediron

etnad0 said:


> Prove it.


You've proved it yourself with the line "_They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's no_t."  If the photographs aren't the most important thing, then what is?  



etnad0 said:


> Show me a single shot from the person in charge of setting up the pictures that is of poor quality.


I've not seen any; can you post some or provide links?



etnad0 said:


> I'm guessing you're slow...


You'd guess wrong.



etnad0 said:


> I love your ignorance and jealousy.


As best I can determine, right now you have nothing for me to be jealous of...



etnad0 said:


> I understand why people like you sit on forums and contribute nothing but negativity.


Perhaps you could read a few more of my contributions; I rather think that the vast majority of them are positive ones.



etnad0 said:


> You hate your life and the fact that you can't do what others do,


Not at all.



etnad0 said:


> I can AFFORD to try the business and fail.


I'm happy for you.  



etnad0 said:


> Please keep the hate coming because it's soooo encouraging. I know for a fact that you wish you could start a business to have a product to sell, but the fact is that if your "quality" work was worth anything at all, you could get enough money to start your own business and not worry about what I'm doing with my money and time. I'm loving the fact that you hate it so much. You're really going to hate it when people love their pictures and start telling other people to come get pictures from us.


Wow... you really must have a guilty conscience.  I don't hate you; it might make you feel better if I did, I suppose, but really, I don't.  



etnad0 said:


> In fact, let's put your money where your mouth is. February 1, 2012 - March 1, 2012, lets see who makes the most money from photography.


I'll concede that now; I don't plan on doing much, if any paid work in the spring.

I guess at the end of the day it boils down to this:  I take pride in my work, and believe that any job, regardless of what it is, or how small it is, should always be done to the best of one's ability.  Starting a business with the philosophy that mediocrity is acceptable tells me that you have little work ethic and less pride in your work.  With respect to that bet you offered, how about if we make that for 1 January 2013 - 1 February 2013.  That will give you lots of time to get your business up and running.


----------



## etnad0

tirediron said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> You've proved it yourself with the line "_They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's no_t."  If the photographs aren't the most important thing, then what is?
Click to expand...


Business is the most important thing in Business. 



> I've not seen any; can you post some or provide links?



Exactly my point, but you keep talking about the quality of product but you just admitted you haven't seen any. That makes you a liar.




> As best I can determine, right now you have nothing for me to be jealous of...



If you don't have anything positive to contribute, why speak on it? You already admitted that you don't know much about business, you haven't seen any work from the photographer, which means you're just posting negativity for the sake of being a hater.



> Wow... you really must have a guilty conscience.  I don't hate you; it might make you feel better if I did, I suppose, but really, I don't.



Lol... guilty conscience about what? I haven't done anything to feel guilty about. Like the rest of your posts in this thread, I'll assume you're making it up just for the sake of being negative.



> I guess at the end of the day it boils down to this:  I take pride in my work, and believe that any job, regardless of what it is, or how small it is, should always be done to the best of one's ability.  Starting a business with the philosophy that mediocrity is acceptable tells me that you have little work ethic and less pride in your work.  With respect to that bet you offered, how about if we make that for 1 January 2013 - 1 February 2013.  That will give you lots of time to get your business up and running.



I never said "mediocrity is acceptable". You said that. I said, the main focus of business should be business. Skill comes 2nd. I never once said we are going to just put out crappy pictures to make money. You assumed that because you can't seem to comprehend that you can be the best photographer in the world, but if you don't have business sense it will fail. If I really planned to rely on my personal skill level you might have a point, depending on how much progress I make between now and February, but that's not the case. I found a professional photographer, gave up 40% of my ownership share, just so he could bring quality and knowledge to the table. I'm smart enough to know that I need someone that knows more than me about photography. He thought photography was the most important part of business and that it would carry him through, but it didn't work out that way. I basically gave him a way to continue doing what he loves without worry about the business part of it. If it was about mediocrity, I'd keep my 80% and hire some high school kids to take pics for minimum wage. I love photography and I'm actually learning and attempting to get better at it, which is why I'm going to learn from him while we conduct business.

I'm going to give you a perfect example. T-Pain is one of the best hip hop producers around. He made hits for quite a few people and they made millions. He barely made thousands because he didn't know crap about business. I felt bad for the guy because he is a really good producer and kind hearted person that just wanted to do music, but he got screwed over because he thought making good music meant making lots of money. Same thing happened to Kanye at first. They were paying him $10k for music he could have sold for $100k or more, but he didn't know any better. Then they gave him a record deal so they could get his stuff for even cheaper. When he found out, he said "f*** them" and shot out a press release announcing his album. The label had no choice but to show up for it, but they admit they never planned to release him as an artist. Kanye got paid because he gained some business sense and put the music 2nd. When it was 1st he was getting screwed. Hopefully you understand my point now.

As far as your changing the bet... whenever. Doesn't matter to me. By the end of the first year, I'll have several thousand people on our mailing list. An email blast will probably generate a five figure weekend, but if that's what you want to do, so be it.


----------



## c.cloudwalker

Ok, can you guys just kiss and make up... ?

I think you both have something to offer here, in very different ways, but so what?



I mean, shoot, I could write you a book about what is wrong with both of your positions but let's be honest here, what are we taught in the US from the earliest age? Make money! *Make money at any cost!* Fook the darn corpses you leave along the way.


etnad0's way may not be mine but neither is yours tirediron. etnad0 is not leaving corpses behind him, like some other companies we all know, Canada seems to stay out of the limelight because they don't get involved. Fine. Great. But that ain't quite the same as being out there saving the world and the planet.

Anyway, as I told etnad0 in a PM I basically do the same he does but at a much higher level, so I don't have to work as hard as he will. You want a different world, teach your kids right. Teach your neighbor's kids right. Teach other people's kids right.

And maybe we need to teach ourselves right... to start with.


----------



## BlackSheep

etnad0 said:


> The flea markets/swap meets out here cost to get in. There is a previous post on it but I have to dig it up. As far as "uniforms" it's both actually. I think we are going to buy the uniforms, but they aren't uniforms in the traditional sense. We are hiring 2 female models. The attire has to be sexy, but not so sexy that families feel uncomfortable bringing their kids. We found some good examples that we are going to go with.
> 
> 
> We figure it's a good cross between sexy and professional. The reason we are buying is because if we leave it up to the girls, sooner or later someone will cross the borderline with sexy clothes. All of the models, receipts, order forms, etc. will be bilingual since 80% of our customer base speaks Spanish.
> 
> Drunk men and sexy women are a great combination. The place we are at sells beer and lots of it.
> 
> The compensation also includes and hourly + bonus goals for the day.



(I've snipped parts out of your original quote to keep things simple)

It's impressive that you're putting so much work into the planning stage. I don't understand what type of photos you will be doing, though - you mention drunk men, sexy-but-professional sales girls, and families in a flea market. I'm just curious, can you show an example of what type of photos you intend to do?


----------



## BlairWright

etnad0 said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> That McDonalds analogy is perhaps the worst analogy I've ever heard.
> 
> Have fun with your dollar menu photos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly because you don't understand business. McDonald's isn't focused on making a better burger. They focus on promoting mediocre burgers and making them look good. You seem to think that focusing on making the best the burger (photo) is the most important thing and it's not. Look at the movie industry, look at fast food, look at clothing lines, look at Microsoft. Lot's of people make better stuff than most of the huge companies, but they think like you, which is why they aren't as big.
Click to expand...


Man, I hate to say this but you have a horrible attitude. You are way off base here, this isn't burgers it's art and you will be based 100% on the quality of your work; if your lucky you'll get a couple "well he's a great guy but his work is not too great".

Customer service is VERY important but unless you can back it up with results you will fail.

Sorry but that's the truth buddy.

-B


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Uh, he doesn't seem to be targeting the high end market. It's quick portraiture, not art. It sounds like cookie cutter set up, a la Sears, or Wal-Mart, so all that needs to be done is pose, and press the shutter. He seems to be catering to a lower income bracket, giving them a fun, expensive feeling experience, and they get to go home with a few images to frame and hang on their wall. He seems to be targeting a market that wouldn't think of dropping $500 for a portrait session, ever. That and the casual customer that happens to be there, and are wrapped up in having a good time, and decide to get a portrait just for fun.

I don't see a problem with that.

The only two questions I have...since you will be serving beverages, do you fall under health codes, and, rules may have changed, but if you are playing music, do you have to pay ASCAP (?) licensing fees? At a bar I worked at, you could only play commercial radio, or the Jukebox. The Jukebox company covers the ASCAP fees. We couldn't play our own CD's, and they could be fined if they were caught doing so.


----------



## rexbobcat

etnad0 said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you don't actually own a business either or if you do, you're not making much money LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. So you are a huckster.It's all cool.Sometimes if you don't have the talent, schmoozing works.  Also, P.T. Barnum."There's a sucker born every minute."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds like the words of a jealous loser to me. As I suspected. You have no talent and no money and no business sense. Sucks to be you. LOL.Let me also add that you should probably learn how to add a TITLE tag to your website before trying to give me business advice because having "Untitled Page" showing is very unprofessional and the first sign that you don't even know something as simple as putting your own name on your website. The fact that you are too lazy to categorize your blog post or add tags or even a title tells me all I need to know about your business sense. Good luck with that. LOL
Click to expand...

 The thing is: I'm a college student. I do this on the side. And no need to get so caustic. Your assumptions and accusations just make you sound like you don't have any other way to discuss things, so you just attack people. At least that's what I've noticed. Also: I built this site from scratch, without any templates. I'm the only person in my 'business' with the ability to produce...well...products in what I do. And I'm not talking about business sense. I have none. That's why my significant other has a degree in Business Management, and when I transfer to Austin we're going to sink much more time into this.I'm sorry that you have trouble being civil to other people. But the sexily-clad hook...I mean....models will be doing most of the talking most likely? So you can just be counting your hard earned money in the back room. So I guess that makes it a win-win.So yeah, having full ride scholarships to a university, plus making about 1k a month without flipping burgers. It's a pretty sweet deal. (Also; look at the area that I live in. The competition is not what I consider part of the elite. And yeah, I am pretty lazy since I'm taking 19 hours of classes, plus photographing the college sports team, plus working for the school's newspaper, plus delving into this venture. Yeah, lazy.)


----------



## etnad0

> (I've snipped parts out of your original quote to keep things simple)
> 
> It's impressive that you're putting so much work into the planning stage. I don't understand what type of photos you will be doing, though - you mention drunk men, sexy-but-professional sales girls, and families in a flea market. I'm just curious, can you show an example of what type of photos you intend to do?



I was just saying what kind of people are at these places. Think of an outside mall that serves alcohol and has a live band playing and you have our location. The following pic is an example of the kind of shots we would take. How people pose and what they wear is up to them. At the location we will be capable of doing portfolio worthy stuff, which my partner will shoot if needed.

http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/ima...s-a-picture-like-this-31967-1241728566-18.jpg






I didn't shoot this picture nor did anyone I know, but it's the closest example I could find. People that just want to remember the day or if they are out spur of the moment and want to take pics to hand out to friends and family. I'm sure once word gets out people will plan to come and take pics. We aren't charging an arm and a leg for stuff like this. $10 if they want it on CD.

The sexy women serve a purpose. Go to an attorney's office, some doctor's offices, and many other places. They hire beautiful women as secretaries, assistants, etc. The reason is because people are less guarded around women. Here in Vegas, if a man walks up to you trying to sell something, it is usually a hustle. Not always, but more times than not, and especially in the swap meet.

Some people focus on only the high end customers, but there is lots of money to be made in the low end market from people that want something semi professional, but can't afford to go full professional. I don't see why people have a problem with me catering to that market. When there are 30k people around, I'm sure we can get 200+ people per day to spend $10 per day. Being open 3 days per week will gross about $24k per month. That's on the low end.


----------



## etnad0

> The thing is: I'm a college student. I do this on the side. And no need to get so caustic. Your assumptions and accusations just make you sound like you don't have any other way to discuss things, so you just attack people. At least that's what I've noticed. Also: I built this site from scratch, without any templates. I'm the only person in my 'business' with the ability to produce...well...products in what I do. And I'm not talking about business sense. I have none. That's why my significant other has a degree in Business Management, and when I transfer to Austin we're going to sink much more time into this.I'm sorry that you have trouble being civil to other people. But the sexily-clad hook...I mean....models will be doing most of the talking most likely? So you can just be counting your hard earned money in the back room. So I guess that makes it a win-win.So yeah, having full ride scholarships to a university, plus making about 1k a month without flipping burgers. It's a pretty sweet deal. (Also; look at the area that I live in. The competition is not what I consider part of the elite. And yeah, I am pretty lazy since I'm taking 19 hours of classes, plus photographing the college sports team, plus working for the school's newspaper, plus delving into this venture. Yeah, lazy.)



Actually I didn't attack anyone. YOU started with the huckster comment. Don't get mad when I point out your lack of professionalism on your own website. Being a college student is no excuse for doing it right. Somebody that doesn't bother to even put their title in the title tag shouldn't be criticizing someone else about what they are doing. If you hadn't made the comment you did in the first place, you wouldn't have gotten the response you did. Sorry you have trouble taking responsibility for your own words. 

As far as lazy, I didn't say lazy in general. I said lazy in respect to your website and business. Yes, it's just plain lazy to not add a title. If you're going to do it, do the simple stuff right. You wrote your page from scratch? Why? It looks just like plenty of templates out there and you could have saved yourself hours. As you said, you have no business sense, so why are you bothering to respond and toss in your 2 cents about business?


----------



## etnad0

> Man, I hate to say this but you have a horrible attitude. You are way off base here, this isn't burgers it's art and you will be based 100% on the quality of your work; if your lucky you'll get a couple "well he's a great guy but his work is not too great".
> 
> Customer service is VERY important but unless you can back it up with results you will fail.
> 
> Sorry but that's the truth buddy.
> 
> -B



I only have an attitude with people that think they can say what they want, make false assumptions, etc. but think I shouldn't say something back and no, nothing is ever based 100% on quality of work. If that was the case, McDonald's wouldn't be in business. Many TV shows you see on TV wouldn't be on air right now. Many books wouldn't be published. Many CDs would never come out.

Please show me some evidence of someone with great customer service and a mediocre product failing. I can show you an example of someone with a great product failing for lack of business. In fact, walk into Borders Book Store... Oh that's right, they don't exist anymore. They had the same books as everyone else, but their customer service sucked, the store layout sucked, and they weren't author friendly. Same quality of product as Barne's and Noble, but they sucked.

There is a lady down the street that mostly sells independent music on consignment. The music sucks most of the time. The packaging sucks most of the time, but she's been in business over 30 years because she is artist friendly, she has great customer service, and people go there to buy stuff because they like her. She has some mainstream music, movies, etc. She's around and WOW Music Store isn't. WOW had that same problem as Borders. 

Art is about perception. Just because you don't think it's good doesn't mean the next person will have the same opinion. I'd never pay over $200 for a picture or a painting, but there are people that spend thousands and millions on it. I think it's dumb, but that's my opinion and it has no bearing on what other people will or won't do. The fact is, good customer service, affordable product, the right location makes money. Plain and simple.

Sorry, but that's the truth buddy.


----------



## etnad0

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Uh, he doesn't seem to be targeting the high end market. It's quick portraiture, not art. It sounds like cookie cutter set up, a la Sears, or Wal-Mart, so all that needs to be done is pose, and press the shutter. He seems to be catering to a lower income bracket, giving them a fun, expensive feeling experience, and they get to go home with a few images to frame and hang on their wall. He seems to be targeting a market that wouldn't think of dropping $500 for a portrait session, ever. That and the casual customer that happens to be there, and are wrapped up in having a good time, and decide to get a portrait just for fun.
> 
> I don't see a problem with that.



I'm glad you get exactly what we are doing. You are 100% right in everything you just said. Some people seem to think that photography is about high prices and expensive shots. I personally believe its about having fun. Doing high end photography, at least for me, would take the fun out of it, put too much pressure on me, and I'd no longer enjoy doing it. This way I can make money and have fun while doing so.

All my businesses that I've ever done caters to low income people. That's what I know, that's what I'm comfortable with, so that's what I do. At the last business where we sold shoes and hip hop jewelry, we'd play cards with the customers, hang out, and talk. If they brought in a CD of their own music we'd play that as well. We made a lot of money, had a ton of fun, and met some great people. When the owner of the Discount Mall started letting things go down hill and the place got dirty, we left and moved on to something else. I'm not even 30 yet and I'm just enjoying life because I don't want to work for anyone else.



> The only two questions I have...since you will be serving beverages, do you fall under health codes, and, rules may have changed, but if you are playing music, do you have to pay ASCAP (?) licensing fees? At a bar I worked at, you could only play commercial radio, or the Jukebox. The Jukebox company covers the ASCAP fees. We couldn't play our own CD's, and they could be fined if they were caught doing so.



We actually nixed the cider last night. Bottled water we can do without problem. Almost every company does that here in Vegas. As far as music, Pandora set on Jazz or a playlist on some device. We won't be going through a Jukebox company. I think your bar may have been that way based on owner preference. There are several bars out here that play whatever they want. They have Jukeboxes but they don't always use them. I'm not sure though because I've never been in the bar business. I do know of several other types of businesses that do what you described, but I think it's probably easier to do that than to try to construct a play list. I'll check into it because ASCAP and BMI usually don't come checking up on people in a swap meet. lol


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Cool!

I listen to Slacker at work. I didn't look into it, because technically it's not for the showroom. I just brought that up from past experience, as a heads up. It was a while ago, and things change. LOL
Currently listening to Jazz: Classic [Non-Vocal]
This place is swingin'!

I think you have your ducks in a row too. If you can get the traffic in, you should do well. I think it's cool you are trying to give a great experience to those who may be less fortunate. I think some things can be as much about the experience, as it is the product. On a recent trip, I had a rather boring meal at a restaurant, but dined out on the 8th floor roof overlooking the city. Everything about this place screamed money, but the food was very affordable (although boring and mundane). The place was fairly busy. I'd go back just for the experience, not for the food. :thumbup:


----------



## etnad0

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Cool!
> 
> I listen to Slacker at work. I didn't look into it, because technically it's not for the showroom. I just brought that up from past experience, as a heads up. It was a while ago, and things change. LOL
> Currently listening to Jazz: Classic [Non-Vocal]
> This place is swingin'!
> 
> I think you have your ducks in a row too. If you can get the traffic in, you should do well. I think it's cool you are trying to give a great experience to those who may be less fortunate. I think some things can be as much about the experience, as it is the product. On a recent trip, I had a rather boring meal at a restaurant, but dined out on the 8th floor roof overlooking the city. Everything about this place screamed money, but the food was very affordable (although boring and mundane). The place was fairly busy. I'd go back just for the experience, not for the food. :thumbup:



LOL. We are on the exact same page. I use to order delivery from this mom and pop deli that had decent food, but it wasn't the best. The reason I'd consistently spend money with them is because they were inside of a corner store, much like 7-11. As part of their customer service you could order ANYTHING in the store at no extra charge. If I wanted a sandwich from them, Reese's Peanut Butter Cups and cigarettes (I don't smoke) from the store, they'd grab it for me. The only thing I ever ordered with my meals were 2 liter sodas or some chips, but they would do grocery shopping if you wanted. Once I overpaid by $2.00. The owner called me, apologized, and sent the delivery lady back to give me my change. I let her keep it as a tip even though I'd already tipped her for the first trip. I loved that place, but I live to far from them to deliver to me now or I'd order something right now just thinking about it lol.


----------



## Robert_Maxey

etnad0 said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you take good pics? Can he?  That is the big key ingredient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and Yes, but you are wrong, pictures are only 10% of a picture business. Ask McDonald's if it's more important to run good business or make good burgers. I'm sure you can point me to 1,000 burger places that make better burgers, but don't have anywhere near the success as McDonald's.
> 
> The last business me and one of my partners was in, we had 3 competitors people had to go through before they got to us. We smashed the competition because we spoke English and hired someone Spanish. The other guys were Asians that didn't speak either very well. LOL. I'm assuming that by your comment that you are photography minded like my new partner? Not a bad thing, but sometimes the craft keeps you blind to the business and vice versa, which is why we make a great team.
> 
> Our business is the equivalent to a photo booth at a wedding or a Glamour Shots in a mall, but without the cheesiness. Once we take care of the necessary paper work, I'll share our business card that I designed yesterday.
Click to expand...


I grew up in the business. I was taught much by a deeply dedicate photographic family. I can tell you that although business savvy is important, the final result is also important. The skill of the photographer and printer is worth more than ten percent you seem to think it is. People came to us because were better than the rest and we had experience and mad skills.


----------



## etnad0

> I grew up in the business. I was taught much by a deeply dedicate photographic family. I can tell you that although business savvy is important, the final result is also important. The skill of the photographer and printer is worth more than ten percent you seem to think it is. People came to us because were better than the rest and we had experience and mad skills.



1. What part of photography skill filed the business documents? 
2. What part found business insurance?  
3. What part picked a business location? 
4. What part negotiated the lease? 
5. What part managed the account? 
6. What part handled customer service? 
7. What part handled marketing?
8. What part prepared the taxes?
9. What part calculated overhead? 
10. What part took the picture?

Look at that, 9 out of 10 business items have absolutely nothing to do with photography, making it only 10% of the big picture. You can't negotiate a shop lease with knowledge of ISO or Shutter Speed. LOL.

Sure your pictures kept them coming back, but the business savvy is what kept your business from going away. Food for thought.


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## Bitter Jeweler

Dante? is your username, your name backwards?

Anyway...Once your business is started, and you are done with most of your 1-10 list, it really comes down to Product Quality, and Marketing. Yes, there is clerical work, but that doesn't really count towards success. It's basically a chore that has to be done, like sweeping the floor. What will maintain business is quality that keeps them coming back, and marketing that gets new customers. It's pretty simple. Just because you are a pro at dealing with 1-9, doesn't guarantee success. It's #6 and #10 that count the most.


You know I am not bashing you, cuz as I said before, it looks like you have all your ducks in a row, and have an interesting niche product/service. You just can't keep touting that it's more about business skill. It is both.


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## Robert_Maxey

etnad0 said:


> I grew up in the business. I was taught much by a deeply dedicate photographic family. I can tell you that although business savvy is important, the final result is also important. The skill of the photographer and printer is worth more than ten percent you seem to think it is. People came to us because were better than the rest and we had experience and mad skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. What part of photography skill filed the business documents?
> 2. What part found business insurance?
> 3. What part picked a business location?
> 4. What part negotiated the lease?
> 5. What part managed the account?
> 6. What part handled customer service?
> 7. What part handled marketing?
> 8. What part prepared the taxes?
> 9. What part calculated overhead?
> 10. What part took the picture?
> 
> Look at that, 9 out of 10 business items have absolutely nothing to do with photography, making it only 10% of the big picture. You can't negotiate a shop lease with knowledge of ISO or Shutter Speed. LOL.
> 
> Sure your pictures kept them coming back, but the business savvy is what kept your business from going away. Food for thought.
Click to expand...


Most of the above handled by lawyers and accountants. Employees handled customer service. We were word of mouth except for an ad in the phone book. No advertising to speak of from 1890 onward. All combined, everything on your list was largely ignore day to day because most of your list were of no concern day to day. For example, negotiating a lease is not something on our minds every day. And if we were relocating every week, sure we would think about leases every day. Fact is, we were in one building for a very long time. You really must try harder to make a point.


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## Smitty91

etnad0 said:


> I'm sure we can get 200+ people per day to spend $10 per day.



I too think you have your ducks in a row and have considered quite a bit. I have personally learned a couple things from this thread. But I do have one question from the quote above... what data or information are you using to base the 200+ customers/day?


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## c.cloudwalker

Bitter Jeweler said:


> You know I am not bashing you, cuz as I said before, it looks like you have all your ducks in a row, and have an interesting niche product/service. You just can't keep touting that it's more about business skill. It is both.



Not always. You probably tend to look at this from the viewpoint of an accomplished craftsman who is doing and selling high end quality. But you forget that quality (just like art) is a very subjective thing. I mean, some people think black velvet paintings of Elvis should hang in the Louvres 

You know, I've never forgotten the day I shot the owner of the Domino's Pizza's franchise for the DC metro area, some 20-25 years back. I mention the years because I don't think it is owned by the same person anymore.

Anyway, listening to this guy being interviewed, I was totally amazed. I learned so much in that hour and half that, after I was done shooting him, I asked if we could meet and talk. We did, he told me a few more things and I've never forgotten some of them.

And frankly, Domino's Pizza was the worst. They even said so themselves when they rolled out the new crust a few years back.


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## Bitter Jeweler

That's true Cloud.

I did acknowledge in an earlier post about the price point of his product, and what he is doing. I should specifically say that as long as the customers find value for the money spent, it's all good. But there still is a line in there. 

When Dominos, Burger King and McDonalds are brought up, we have to include other factors other than taste. Price, and convenience are part of their success. People don't drive 30 minutes (in urban areas)to get Burger King.

I prefer Papa Johns over Dominos, but I won't drive 20 minutes to get Papa Johns, and they don't deliver to my area, but Dominos does. Other local pizza shops aren't very good. 

etnadO, has this going for him. He has a captive market, and is priced according to the market he plans on serving. If the quality of the images is no better than a cell phone pic, will he succeed? For his market, the image quality of a Rebel or entry Nikon will probably suffice. But there still is that line.


So, I guess we agree, no?


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## c.cloudwalker

Bitter Jeweler said:


> That's true Cloud.
> 
> I did acknowledge in an earlier post about the price point of his product, and what he is doing. I should specifically say that as long as the customers find value for the money spent, it's all good. But there still is a line in there.
> 
> When Dominos, Burger King and McDonalds are brought up, we have to include other factors other than taste. Price, and convenience are part of their success. People don't drive 30 minutes (in urban areas)to get Burger King.
> 
> I prefer Papa Johns over Dominos, but I won't drive 20 minutes to get Papa Johns, and they don't deliver to my area, but Dominos does. Other local pizza shops aren't very good.
> 
> etnadO, has this going for him. He has a captive market, and is priced according to the market he plans on serving. If the quality of the images is no better than a cell phone pic, will he succeed? For his market, the image quality of a Rebel or entry Nikon will probably suffice. But there still is that line.
> 
> 
> So, I guess we agree, no?



I think we absolutely agree on the main principle and we are just BSing about the details.

Such as if there is only Domino's Pizza within my delivery area, I'd rather go hungry.

:lmao:


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## gsgary

etnad0 said:


> (I've snipped parts out of your original quote to keep things simple)
> 
> It's impressive that you're putting so much work into the planning stage. I don't understand what type of photos you will be doing, though - you mention drunk men, sexy-but-professional sales girls, and families in a flea market. I'm just curious, can you show an example of what type of photos you intend to do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just saying what kind of people are at these places. Think of an outside mall that serves alcohol and has a live band playing and you have our location. The following pic is an example of the kind of shots we would take. How people pose and what they wear is up to them. At the location we will be capable of doing portfolio worthy stuff, which my partner will shoot if needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't shoot this picture nor did anyone I know, but it's the closest example I could find. People that just want to remember the day or if they are out spur of the moment and want to take pics to hand out to friends and family. I'm sure once word gets out people will plan to come and take pics. We aren't charging an arm and a leg for stuff like this. $10 if they want it on CD.
> 
> The sexy women serve a purpose. Go to an attorney's office, some doctor's offices, and many other places. They hire beautiful women as secretaries, assistants, etc. The reason is because people are less guarded around women. Here in Vegas, if a man walks up to you trying to sell something, it is usually a hustle. Not always, but more times than not, and especially in the swap meet.
> 
> Some people focus on only the high end customers, but there is lots of money to be made in the low end market from people that want something semi professional, but can't afford to go full professional. I don't see why people have a problem with me catering to that market. When there are 30k people around, I'm sure we can get 200+ people per day to spend $10 per day. Being open 3 days per week will gross about $24k per month. That's on the low end.
Click to expand...


Best laugh i have had all Christmas, there is no way you will get that photo with 1 continuos and 1 strobe, looks like he got 30% of **** all


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## KmH

etnad0 said:


> _Photo deleted from quote._
> 
> I didn't shoot this picture nor did anyone I know, but it's the closest example I could find.


It is utterly amazing how cavalier some are about image copyright.

Which is superceded by forum rules/regs - Photography Forum & Digital Photography Forum FAQ


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## lepierce3

I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, but I'm not quite understanding this because you say you say you want to do something different, but from what I've read it sounds just like what everyone else in the low end of the photography market is doing. Not only that, there are already some huge names in the low end market as well, like cpi (PictureMe! in walmarts, Sears Portraits, Kiddie Kandids, ect) and Lifetouch (who owns JcPenny portraits, Olen Mills, Target Portraits, Flash!, and a whole ton of other studios). They already have a large amount of the low end market, and Lifetouch is huge on customer service and yields a pretty good product for what they are. It's true that quality doesn't matter much to this market (just price really), so thats not really a problem, but still these companys don't survive on $10 and $20 sales, a large part of their sales are in the $100-$300 range. So that's another problem. So unless your location is like an hour or more away from any of these very established studios, I feel like you're just going to have a very hard time. Don't get me wrong, there's always the chance it will work, but I just wonder if you've given these things I've mentioned any thought?


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## etnad0

lepierce3 said:


> I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, but I'm not quite understanding this because you say you say you want to do something different, but from what I've read it sounds just like what everyone else in the low end of the photography market is doing. Not only that, there are already some huge names in the low end market as well, like cpi (PictureMe! in walmarts, Sears Portraits, Kiddie Kandids, ect) and Lifetouch (who owns JcPenny portraits, Olen Mills, Target Portraits, Flash!, and a whole ton of other studios). They already have a large amount of the low end market, and Lifetouch is huge on customer service and yields a pretty good product for what they are. It's true that quality doesn't matter much to this market (just price really), so thats not really a problem, but still these companys don't survive on $10 and $20 sales, a large part of their sales are in the $100-$300 range. So that's another problem. So unless your location is like an hour or more away from any of these very established studios, I feel like you're just going to have a very hard time. Don't get me wrong, there's always the chance it will work, but I just wonder if you've given these things I've mentioned any thought?


 
We don't need to be an hour away because the location we are in gets over 30,000 people per weekend and 100k people during Christmas season. There isn't a K-Mart, Wal-Mart, or any other photo studio anywhere near our location. Most of our customers live in the immediate area and shop in the immediate area. We've given it a lot more thought than you can imagine. Our overhead is extremely low.

The problem is that people are scared to do stuff because they are so worried about everyone else that is already established. When I ran the clothing store we had, we were blowing WalMart away with sock prices. We were getting socks for $3 per dozen. WalMart sells them $6 per half dozen. We sold them $6 per dozen. WalMart was across the street and we still sold an average of 100 dozen socks per day and that's only 1 item. If I can sell 100 dozen pair of socks across the street form WalMart on a daily basis, I'm sure I can sell paper and ink, especially since none of the major photo studios are around us.

Also consider the rent of many of these places you mentioned. Their rent is probably $1,500+ per month for their space. Our rent is $344 per month. They also have lots of employee overhead. Ours is super low. They need $100 - $300 sales. Also, don't be confused, we are offering low priced pictures, but we also packages at higher prices that will run the $45 - $300 range for those people that can afford more, but we understand that our target market will be spending $10-$20 on average, so our primary business plan is centered around them.


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## etnad0

> Best laugh i have had all Christmas, there is no way you will get that photo with 1 continuos and 1 strobe, looks like he got 30% of **** all



Who said we only had 1 continuous and 1 strobe? Are you making stuff up just to make your own points now? LOL. We didn't take that pic, and we also have quite a few strobes and continuous.


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## gsgary

etnad0 said:


> Best laugh i have had all Christmas, there is no way you will get that photo with 1 continuos and 1 strobe, looks like he got 30% of **** all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who said we only had 1 continuous and 1 strobe? Are you making stuff up just to make your own points now? LOL. We didn't take that pic, and we also have quite a few strobes and continuous.
Click to expand...



This is what you wrote : Basically for my 30% share he's bringing in his camera, full strobe set  up, which brings us to 2 setups (1 continuous and 1 strobe).

So you meant 1 set of each ? well you can disregard the continuos because they are a waste of time, how do i know ? because i do events photography when needed


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## etnad0

gsgary said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best laugh i have had all Christmas, there is no way you will get that photo with 1 continuos and 1 strobe, looks like he got 30% of **** all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who said we only had 1 continuous and 1 strobe? Are you making stuff up just to make your own points now? LOL. We didn't take that pic, and we also have quite a few strobes and continuous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is what you wrote : Basically for my 30% share he's bringing in his camera, full strobe set  up, which brings us to 2 setups (1 continuous and 1 strobe).
> 
> So you meant 1 set of each ? well you can disregard the continuos because they are a waste of time, how do i know ? because i do events photography when needed
Click to expand...


That makes sense now. You came in on the middle of the conversation when we had already established that I had a full continuous set up. My partner was bringing one strobe setup, which is what I clearly said in the post you read. "full strobe set up" is right there. One light is not a full set up. We have 1 full continuous set up and 1 full strobe set up. Not just 1 strobe light and 1 continuous light. LOL. I'm not a pro, but I know enough to know that we need more than 2 lights to run a photo business.


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## thinkricky

First off. How can you assume that these guys don't know anything about business?

Speaking of which what "business experience" do you have? Socks? Is that it? When you say you ran it doesn't mean you owned it please specify. What happened to those businesses? Did it expand? Did it die? Why or why not?

Also, you said you are gave him 30% of your company before you had an equipment meeting. So how do you know he's worth the 30%?

I agree he's the talent you're like the business agent who should take a cut of his profits not the other way around. Sounds more like a barbershop that charges rent for a place to work. 

How old are you? Trying to get motivated on a market that you dot know what kind of demand is out there for? Have you done the research? Who owns the remaining 20%? sounds like you were starting this business with or without this new guy so hopefully you did all the research before you blow that kinda money. Have you even done any events or shots for money?

Oh and the McDonalds analogy was a dumb one. People need to eat. People don't need photographs. Food doesn't necessarily have to be great quality but paid photography does. People also need socks. I know I do. 

Oh and this is coming from a business standpoint. These are basic questions I would ask if I were the one funding it. I would be concerned how am I going to get my money back and start making money. How long it's going to take to become profitable? A plan to get there. I suggest you do the same.


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## etnad0

thinkricky said:


> First off. How can you assume that these guys don't know anything about business?



Feel free to quote me saying that they don't know anything about business. I never said it or assumed it.



> Speaking of which what "business experience" do you have? What happened to those businesses?



Keep reading. Both have already been answered before.



> Also, you said you are gave him 30% of your company before you had an equipment meeting. So how do you know he's worth the 30%?



Because I knew he had equipment and experience from working with him on an independent film project. I didn't have his exact equipment list, but I had a general idea. I didn't just find some random guy off the street. 



> I agree he's the talent you're like the business agent who should take a cut of his profits not the other way around. Sounds more like a barbershop that charges rent for a place to work.



Business agents don't put up the money to start the business, so that analogy makes you sound ignorant. Barbershops charge rent because if you knew how one worked, those guys don't get paid hourly. They get paid from customers. So instead of one barber renting an entire room, a bunch rent a chair from the owner. Otherwise, there wouldn't be barbershops. You don't seem to know much about what you're talking about. LOL



> How old are you?



How old are you? Quite irrelevant.



> Trying to get motivated on a market that you dot know what kind of demand is out there for? Have you done the research?



Yawn... I have a full business plan. Nope, no research done (sarcasm)



> Who owns the remaining 20%?



That was answered long before I mentioned the 30%. If you're going to rant at least read and understand before making yourself out to sound... what's that word?



> sounds like you were starting this business with or without this new guy so hopefully you did all the research before you blow that kinda money. Have you even done any events or shots for money?



Yep, it was going to happen whether he was in or not. So what?



> Oh and the McDonalds analogy was a dumb one. People need to eat. People don't need photographs. Food doesn't necessarily have to be great quality but paid photography does.



It's only dumb to the dumb. People don't need to eat McDonald's. You can make better healthier food at home for cheaper. McDonald's is more expensive and not as good which applies to my point about marketing. People need to eat, but McDonald's isn't marketing you better food for a cheaper price. They are marketing mediocre food at a higher price. Like I said, if you don't know much about business, you won't get the McDonald's reference. You'll understand when you get older or actually make a lot of money in business.


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## thinkricky

etnad0 said:
			
		

> Mostly because you don't understand business.



In response to page 1. You assume he doesn't understand business as you just said I don't which I do. Much more than you I'm sure. But I'm no longer going to debate this. You do what you want. I actually hope you do well.  but based on the information you've given and YOUR knowledge of photography it's a huge risk you're taking. But that's a decision that's not mine. Just pointing out some questions you should get answered before you start.


----------



## etnad0

thinkricky said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly because you don't understand business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In response to page 1. You assume he doesn't understand business as you just said I don't which I do. Much more than you I'm sure. But I'm no longer going to debate this. You do what you want. I actually hope you do well.  but based on the information you've given and YOUR knowledge of photography it's a huge risk you're taking. But that's a decision that's not mine. Just pointing out some questions you should get answered before you start.
Click to expand...


Nothing to debate. Furthermore the point of getting the other guy wasn't his equipment. It was his photography knowledge as well. I'm not taking a huge risk at all. It costs $230 to file business license, LLC, and Initial list of officers, $344 for the rent. $574 total. Any equipment we buy we can always sell later on eBay and get the majority if not all of our money back if we don't just keep it an use it ourselves. Business cards are minimal cost. We could go item by item, but my point is, not a huge risk I'm taking at all.


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## thinkricky

etnad0 said:
			
		

> Yep, it was going to happen whether he was in or not. So what?




So what? You said you are no pro. So you are ready to rent this place out? And start a photography business without the right equipment? Or knowledge of what to get??? Wow... Just wow... If you want to blow money let me know. We'll go to Vegas. At least we won't be stressing.


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## TheKenTurner

Did you say you're gonna use CDs?! BAD IDEA! You can use them if you give them to customers for free, but people really want USB sticks. Welcome to 2011 (almost 2012)!! You can get very low priced 512MB USB sticks, and even get them shipped with your company logo on them! Almost everything that takes CDs, you can put a USB stick into, but you can but a USB stick into a lot of things that will not take a CD (even my TV can read a USB stick).

As a business owner, you have probably thought about this, but you should think about it again. Even if you have them as an option that costs a little more, people will buy them. 

I'm a 15 year old guy that's been looking at business a lot. I obviously don't know as much as you, but I have been taking high school business courses, and I plan on owning a business later down the road. You may not take my post seriously now, but I think it's a great idea.


----------



## etnad0

thinkricky said:


> etnad0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it was going to happen whether he was in or not. So what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what? You said you are no pro. So you are ready to rent this place out? And start a photography business without the right equipment? Or knowledge of what to get??? Wow... Just wow... If you want to blow money let me know. We'll go to Vegas. At least we won't be stressing.
Click to expand...


I live in Vegas and $500 is not a lot of money. You people act like I'm risking a fortune. The fact is, he's on board, so it's a moot point now. LOL.


----------



## etnad0

TheKenTurner said:


> Did you say you're gonna use CDs?! BAD IDEA! You can use them if you give them to customers for free, but people really want USB sticks. Welcome to 2011 (almost 2012)!! You can get very low priced 512MB USB sticks, and even get them shipped with your company logo on them! Almost everything that takes CDs, you can put a USB stick into, but you can but a USB stick into a lot of things that will not take a CD (even my TV can read a USB stick).
> 
> As a business owner, you have probably thought about this, but you should think about it again. Even if you have them as an option that costs a little more, people will buy them.
> 
> I'm a 15 year old guy that's been looking at business a lot. I obviously don't know as much as you, but I have been taking high school business courses, and I plan on owning a business later down the road. You may not take my post seriously now, but I think it's a great idea.



Awesome idea. I'm bringing it up at the next meeting. It definitely can't hurt to have them.


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## gsgary

Have you got a dye sub printer ? to print on site if you want to make money you will need 2 at big events


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## Robin Usagani

This thread has too much talking, not enough action.  Take some photos already! Money money money!


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## Bitter Jeweler




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