# Modeling industry and instagram



## Hunter500 (Aug 21, 2016)

Seems the modeling industry has changed drastically in the last 5 years. It has become more saturated and dominated by a completely unbalanced have and have nots.
  After 10 years of testing, and editing for over 15 agencies in the Los Angeles area, it's become very different the last few years since Instagram. The level of perfection has increased dramatically in cellphone photos, and the amount being paid, has decreased substantually.
I went from 7000 a month to about 3000 a month, and working 3 times harder to get those gigs. Im also finding, that models are being selected through Instagram, and agencies are being avoided. so the agencies are now attacking photographers with things like slander and defamation of character. Its brutal. They have high quotas!!!  They only want to use their photographers, over charge the models, and then get kickbacks. They also need their models, and photographers to have a higher following in order to get more bookings. They own the models, and they can't shoot with anyone but what is appointed to them.
They don't have any ethics or morals when it comes to photographers having degrees, or any loyalty to how long you have worked with them. They all follow the protocal. Los Angeles is a brutal market for photography, anyone will shoot for free, so the Agencies take advantage of that. Some agency managers will pay themselves, and just give the photographer pictures for their portfolio. Its free, or we will find someone else. Models make much less now compared to 10 years ago. So they don't really have a budget for photography. The agencies lend them the money as debt, and then they test. The industry is based on money in and no money out. Or its not in are best interest!!! Instagram has flooded the market with cellphone pics, and regular photography. So to many its just not worth anything more then a cellphone pic, its loosing its value, it's just not the same market anymore. People are very cost effective, not all of them, but a lot of people don't care about the best photography, if it's just good enough, then they will pay for the discounted pics. Setting yourself different, really is the key, although, its anything goes in the modeling industry!


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## EIngerson (Aug 21, 2016)

A couple things, 


Don't judge quality off of what a mediocre model will pay a mediocre photographer. or what "models" post on instagram.

Second,

Tell me what a degree in photography has to do with anything.  Not trying to offend, but the people I know that made a living from photography had zero education in it. You'd be FAR better off with a business degree.


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## Hunter500 (Aug 21, 2016)

I think a degree in photography is essential to understand the funtimentals of composition and elements of design. Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot. Although, understanding that many people with a business degree arn't essentially good photographers, they just hustle the market with a camera, and know nothing about composition or design. I think business is good to understand, and will help, with a degree in photography. This is mainly the modeling industry, other platforms might be different. Although Instagram is what it is, its changing the way photography was, you can fight it all you want, but in reality its shifting photography.


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## 407370 (Aug 21, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> I think a degree in photography is essential



Not really....

The path to learning is a varied one and a degree is only one path. I can read and I can practice but I dont need a degree to do so.


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## Hunter500 (Aug 21, 2016)

I love how people without photography Degree's, justify how much they they take Pride in getting a career in photography, then try to validate, it makes no difference they have no degree. That's the problem. Their may be many people with a pen and paper, but few are POETS!


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## Alexr25 (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> That's the problem. Their may be many people with a pen and paper, but few are POETS!


And even fewer with a degree in literature!!


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## Hunter500 (Aug 22, 2016)

I know everything's saturated. They should require a degree for everything. But everyone's so cost effective!, they will flood the market with anyone and anything to save a buck!


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## Alexr25 (Aug 22, 2016)

Cut price degree-less poets!
What is the world coming to?


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## cgw (Aug 22, 2016)

Any chance the Mods can kick this rant to the curb?


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## robbins.photo (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> I love how people without photography Degree's, justify how much they they take Pride in getting a career in photography, then try to validate, it makes no difference they have no degree. That's the problem. Their may be many people with a pen and paper, but few are POETS!


Ok, well I can name a ton of the most revered poets of all time.  I can't think of one of them that had a college degree in poetry.  Most of the folks that are most notable in the art world didn't have degrees in their chosen field either.

Nothing against those folks that go to college and get a degree mind you, but it's hardly a guarantee of the final results.  

I get that your obviously upset about your situation, but frankly maybe it's time you stopped getting all worked up over stuff you can't control and start focusing on stuff you can.

Try finding a new new niche, look at relocating, etc.  Posting a snark filled rant isn't going to change anything.  Only you can do that.

Sent from my N9518 using Tapatalk


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)




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## terri (Aug 22, 2016)

cgw said:


> Any chance the Mods can kick this rant to the curb?


No need to kick it to the curb, since no TPF guidelines have been violated here.    But I agree that this is not an article, but a discussion, so I've moved it to a more appropriate forum.


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## tirediron (Aug 22, 2016)

cgw said:


> Any chance the Mods can kick this rant to the curb?


We'll see...  there's no harm in someone venting a little bit, and it's Monday morning.  I could use a chuckle.


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)

tirediron said:


> cgw said:
> 
> 
> > Any chance the Mods can kick this rant to the curb?
> ...


A horse walks into a bar.  The bartender looks at the horse and asks, "Why the long face?"


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## 407370 (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> They should require a degree for everything


So people without degrees do what?
I am the only one of 5 children without a degree. My 4 siblings have successful and happy lives. I have a happy and successful life based on working my way up in the aviation industry, which has taken me all over the planet and earned me a lot of money. Chances are that if you have flown on a commercial international flight some of my career was spent making your journey safer.
According to your logic I am not deserving of this career and happy life.

REALLY !!


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)

407370 said:


> Hunter500 said:
> 
> 
> > They should require a degree for everything
> ...


Well I would say you have hit the nail on the head, your just not worthy. 

Oh wait, I'm not sure that I can say that.  I have done carpentry for many years now, build furniture etc. but I never bothered to spend $60,000 to get my nail hitting degree from some university.  My bad.  Disregard the previous comment.

You know, now that I think of it, I wonder if the OP has a college degree in forum posting?


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## Hunter500 (Aug 22, 2016)

Their are so many College graduates,  that learned the craft of photography, and then some seem so entitled, by buying a camera and watching some utube videos, and they say I'm a professional photographer, I'm gonna hustle, and do it for less! Yes!, you can be an amazing photographer without a degree. I don't think many people care if you have a degree or not anymore, and that is a difference. Its called over saturation of photographers, because the idea of learning 4 years of photography means nothing to people not willing to even learn the basics, and they offer it for nothing, or free. so someone with a degree is now charging competitive prices., when anybody with a camera that fell off the turnip truck, can saturate the market.


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## robbins.photo (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> Their are so many College graduates,  that learned the craft of photography, and then some seem so entitled, by buying a camera and watching some utube videos, and they say I'm a professional photographer, I'm gonna hustle, and do it for less! Yes!, you can be an amazing photographer without a degree. I don't think many people care if you have a degree or not anymore, and that is a difference. Its called over saturation of photographers, because the idea of learning 4 years of photography means nothing to people not willing to even learn the basics, and they offer it for nothing, or free. so someone with a degree is now charging competitive prices., when anybody with a camera that fell off the turnip truck, can saturate the market.



So.. umm.. basically what your trying to get across, in a nut shell, just paraphrasing of course is the notion that "life isn't fair."

Huh.

You might be on to something there...


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)

Angelo Sala - Physician
Nicéphore Niépce - no education in photography - inventor
Louis Daguerre - No college education
John Frederick - William Herschel - mathematician, astronomer and chemist
Augustus Washington - no college degree
George Eastman - no college education
Alfred Stieglitz - studied mechanical engineering 
Margaret Bourke-White - BA
Henri Cartier-Bresson - No college
Robert Capa - Studied Journalism, never finished college
Ansel Adams - Honorary Degrees only later in life
Edward Muybridge - publisher and bookseller
Philippe Halsman - electrical engineer 
W. Eugene Smith - high school diploma (home town kid)
George Hurrell - studied as a painter
Robert Frank - businessman
Robert Mapplethorpe - college dropout
Arnold Newman - college dropout
Richard Alvedon- college dropout


Now how in the world could such an ignorant group of people ever have possibly made it in the photographic world without college degree in photography.  Probably on their lack of pretentiousness, study of the craft on their own and with others, experimentation and plain old fashion hard work on their part.  They didn't sit around and whine about the changing world.  Two or three were european jews that managed to survive the holocaust to go on to greatness. 

This rant on your part more and more is beginning to sound like somebody up to their @SS in college debt, not living the life they feel entitled to because they paid all that money to some school and now feel that they need to whine and ***** about their personal situation in life.   A large majority of the great people in this world did not have a college education.  What they did have was a good work ethic, vision, common sense and plain old fashioned determination.


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## TheLibrarian (Aug 22, 2016)

10-15 years ago it was just as bad and worse even before instagram. The modeling industry is just plain sleezy. I remember $700 model portfolio head shots that took 15 minutes and gave pretty lackluster high school yearbook sears portrait studio photos. Thats where the majority of agencies make their money. Agencies have been ripping off models and anyone else for years. I can get a girl to do twice as much for 1/4 of the pay outside of an agency. Might not be that goody good myself but at least they dont have to pay me and I'm not trying to be any ones representation demand exclusive anything  or trying to play any games.


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)

I'm sure that the Elite Model Management, IMG, DNA Models, Ford Models and the like would tend to disagree with you suppositions.


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## terri (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> Their are so many College graduates,  that learned the craft of photography, and then some seem so entitled, by buying a camera and watching some utube videos, and they say I'm a professional photographer, I'm gonna hustle, and do it for less! Yes!, you can be an amazing photographer without a degree. I don't think many people care if you have a degree or not anymore, and that is a difference. Its called over saturation of photographers, because the idea of learning 4 years of photography means nothing to people not willing to even learn the basics, and they offer it for nothing, or free. so someone with a degree is now charging competitive prices., when anybody with a camera that fell off the turnip truck, can saturate the market.



You're being given a hard time here, but at heart most TPF 'ers would agree with you.   When someone takes a craft seriously enough to actually study it and work hard, it is beyond disheartening to see others try to make a quick buck off it, and this flood of shysters impacts the industry in a negative way.    We've commiserated together over this trend, heard this particular rant, many times and from many different sources.    It seems patently unfair, seems to trivialize the art of photography itself, and is offensive on many levels.    We're with you in spirit, but it's nothing we've not heard before.   I wish you continued good luck with your career.


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## zombiesniper (Aug 22, 2016)

terri said:


> You're being given a hard time here, but at heart most TPF 'ers would agree with you. When someone takes a craft seriously enough to actually study it and work hard, it is beyond disheartening to see others try to make a quick buck off it, and this flood of shysters impacts the industry in a negative way.



I completely agree with this statement but what I'll never agree on is that a $30K and up piece of paper can tell me someone is competent.
I know some of the best welders on earth without a ticket. I believe there is more than one path to being skilled. 
Where the problem lies is weeding out the unskilled. Both with and without an expensive piece of paper.


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## DScience (Aug 22, 2016)

Hunter500 said:


> I think a degree in photography is essential to understand the funtimentals of composition and elements of design. Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot. Although, understanding that many people with a business degree arn't essentially good photographers, they just hustle the market with a camera, and know nothing about composition or design. I think business is good to understand, and will help, with a degree in photography. This is mainly the modeling industry, other platforms might be different. Although Instagram is what it is, its changing the way photography was, you can fight it all you want, but in reality its shifting photography.


 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


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## table1349 (Aug 22, 2016)

“Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.” ― Albert Einstein

Franky I find this whole thread humorous.  Photography was a skill that was learned in my day.  The equipment of the day when I learned was considered primitive, being full manual.  It took time, trial and error and considerable time to learn and master.  Film was expensive and learning was necessary to keep costs down.   

Then there were the instamatic/polaroid shooters taking snapshots.  They let the camera do the work for them and got the snapshots they wanted. 

As time has gone by more and more has automated, improved with cameras.  Now a good DSLR will provide far better results to the button pusher with no knowledge than the old instamatic.  We applaud auto ISO, VR,  various shooting modes, photoshop and other editing programs that make life so much easier. 

There was a saying, "If was easy everyone would be doing it."  Well, now it is easy and everyone is doing it.   The world has changed.  So now what do we do?  Complain that everyone is doing it and it is making it harder to make money.   There was a time when only a few could read and write.  The world changes and those that do not change with it fall behind. 

Perhaps its time that reality needs to creep back into the world a bit more and people need to think a bit about what it is they need to do to live the life they want.   Life is not easy.  No one ever promised that it was.  If anyone was ever promised that life was easy, they should seek out that person and slap some sense into them.  

As for the idea that college is the be all end all to become a photographer is to put it mildly Ridiculous.


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## tassietraveller (Aug 23, 2016)

Bs


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## manny212 (Aug 23, 2016)

Have been a model for 30 years , Am with Ford NY, Miami , Chicago . Heffner in Seattle . Sight in Barcelona , Masters in Paris to name a few . 

There has always been a " sleazy" side to modeling , but when dealing with reputable agents like these those are minimized . 

I still test with great " testing " photographers all the time to keep my book updated . Yes social media has taken a role but man you still have to test and come up with nice images to keep moving forward . Most of these photogs have assisted other great photographers and have branched out on their own . Not that hard to imagine really . I test models as a photographer all the time , most of my learning has been on set with the great photographers I've worked with .


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## thereyougo! (Aug 23, 2016)

OP.  Take the chip off your shoulder.  It's making you walk funny.

I have a degree.  Not  a photography one.  I also have a Master's Degree.  Not a photography one either.  What I do for a living takes me around the world and pays well enough to fund a second career/hobby in photography with tens of thousands of pounds worth of equipment.  I'm not going to say precisely what it is that I do, but it is also arts related. 

Success in the arts is much more than simply passing  a degree and knowing the theory back to front.  It's also about emotion, and reaching people and communicating with them.  There are people in my primary industry that resent the success I have because I haven't had the same level of academic training in my discipline as others in my position.  Most of these are not practitioners, but critics and commentators. 

The obsession in getting a degree is out of step with reality, and I partly blame educational establishments doing the hard sell on photography degrees.  You don't need a degree to know how to compose.  You need your images to communicate to people.  Simple as...wish it were that simple in practical terms.  But you won't find it in text books.  You have to feel as well as think.


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## robbins.photo (Aug 23, 2016)

tassietraveller said:


> Bs
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The sort of sheer eloquence that separates us from other photography forums.


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## gckless (Aug 24, 2016)

I agree with you on some points. Instagram and social media in general, facilitated by emerging technology, is changing things quickly. Shoot, I'm one of those guys that just recently hopped on board, I can attest to all of that. Where I'm different than most is that I actually charge and try to uphold the standard that I've learned from you guys and elsewhere. Anyway, things are changing, and you need to either learn how to profit or change fields. Sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. I don't make money on things, not more than my camera gear has costed, but I do it more for fun/hobby than anything. I feel for you and the guys that make a living off of it, it really is unfortunate.

I very much disagree about the degree. The bachelor's degree is becoming the new high school diploma; doesn't really mean much. It's becoming de facto. Everyone has a degree, but no one knows how to do much. I much more respect an associate's from a vocational school or even a damn internship than a 4-year piece of paper in business management. And I would take years of experience with good recommendations over any of the above, even with just a GED. I'll caveat that and say that I'm talking about the [now] cookie-cutter business management or similar degrees, and master's degrees I still respect. Those guys are really working and knowledgeable. 

Photography can be learned via the web, tutorials, and workshops, with nothing to show for it. some great photogs never went to formal school. Job experience man. Sometimes you don't need to know the minute details that make something work to know that it works.


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## table1349 (Aug 24, 2016)

Einstein got it right, as usual.


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