# Question about developing B&W.



## Canuk (Oct 3, 2012)

I have been doing my own B&W developing at home for a little while. 

My question is how many films can you safely develop in one batch of developer. I mix my developer fresh from concentrate each time (Ilfosol 3 1+9). I reuse my stop bath and fixer a few times before replacing them.

I have developed a roll of 120 and then a roll of 35mm with the same developer and the results seemed fine, but is this not recommended? Will changing between film types have an adverse effect on the developing?

I will be posting some pics here soon, as I just got my scanner and I am learning that process as well.

Thanks,

Brent


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## amolitor (Oct 3, 2012)

ILFOSOL S and ILFOSOL 3 are both indicated as one-shot developers by the Ilford web site. They specifically do not recommend using it more than once.

This may have more to do with shelf life of the mixed solution, than actual capacity, though. Unfortunately, since they don't recommend more than one use, they don't seem to provide any capacity information beyond they recommend about 300ml to develop one roll of 35mm/36 exposure film which is in about the same area as a roll of 120.

My guess is that you developed a roll of 120 in 500ml or more of solution, so there was adequate capacity left over to do the 35mm roll. The results probably varied a bit, but apparently not a huge amount. I wouldn't push it much further, and I wouldn't keep the mixed stuff around for more than a day or two.

The manufacturer's web sites on these things usually have excellent data sheets packed with useful, albeit technical, information.


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## Canuk (Oct 3, 2012)

I always dispose of the mixed developer once I have finished w/ the developing process. 
So I guess if I am developing more that a couple films at once I will need to mix more developer. I guess not much point in pushing it to save a few pennies, thanks for the reply.


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## Derrel (Oct 3, 2012)

If you must be a cheapskate, errr I mean a miser, errr, I mean a *thrifty fellow*, perhaps extend the developing times 15 to 20 percent on the second use? Maybe? I dunno...I think the 1-shot developers are always best as...1-shot developers. FIlm and photos are such precious commodities that it seems a shame to not give each roll its proper due, and to achieve reliable and CONSISTENT degree of development from roll to roll, so that printing and or scanning is most efficient.


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## Canuk (Oct 3, 2012)

I do agree w/ film being precious. The reuse of the developer on the second roll of film was almost accidental, I had never had more than one to do at the same time, lol. 

I promise to use "one-shot" developer as "one-shot" developer and give each film its own full strength soup!!


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## gsgary (Oct 3, 2012)

your stop bath and fixer can be used until it turns purple if it is Ilford which is more  than 20 rolls


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## gsgary (Oct 3, 2012)

Ive been given 20 rolls of XP2 (c41 development) from Ilford that i am going to develope in Rodinal seen some good results


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## bhop (Oct 11, 2012)

I mix fresh chemicals each time.  I used to re-use my b&w chemicals, but there doesn't really seem to be a point since the shelf life of the opened bottles are limited.  If I re-used, then my chemicals would be old and weak before I finished the bottles..


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## Canuk (Oct 11, 2012)

Since I first posted this, I have only been using the Developer as one shot and disposing of after developement. 

I do reuse the stop bath and the fixer a few times. I usually will use the same stop and fixer for both developing film and then for prints. Is there a problem with doing this?
The Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid fixer are both used for film and paper, but now I am wondering if using the same batch for both could cause problems?


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## snark (Jan 19, 2013)

I am a newbie or sorts, because I have not set foot in a darkroom for 30 years but am now getting back to it.  I recall being told to mix D-76 3:1 and use it as a one-shot developer, and I tried it with what I thought at the time was good results.  Can't remember how much he said to increase the developing time.  Anyone know?  And what might be the up-side/down-side? Will grain or contrast be different from stock solution?


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## Helen B (Jan 19, 2013)

I've used D-76 1+3 (I assume that you mean 1+3 rather than 3+1) for contrast control with high contrast films, and when pushing with very long development times. Though not everyone sticks to the minimum volume of stock recommendation (150 mL per film), I usually do. That means using large tanks (600 mL per film). The resulting high dilution of the water conditioners in the D-76 does make it more susceptible to water quality problems than lower dilutions. Generally the graininess and acutance will be higher with diluted D-76 than with stock. I use 1+1 D-76 much more often than 1+3. Kodak publish good, carefully determined, times but they only apply to the exact method used during Kodak's testing (this applies to all recommended times, of course).


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## Compaq (Jan 19, 2013)

I will be so honest that I re-shelf my chemicals for film development after usage. They might stand there for a month. For printing, I use the same batch the entire session, then dump. I don't leave that standing. I have been thinking that I probably should not re-use my film developer so much, but I don't feel like paying that much for new bottles very often. Right now I need to buy new paper, in two sizes, and that costs quite a bit for a student.

But I guess it depends on your motives how far you're willing to push the developer's life.


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## ann (Jan 19, 2013)

you can use hc110 as a one shot developer and the concentrate will last a long time, think over a year or better.


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## Compaq (Jan 19, 2013)

A full bottle of Ilfotec DD-X has a shelf life of 24 months, I think. Or was that the Multigrade developer? DD-X not shorter than 12 months, though, if I remember correctly.


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## GlassSlinger (Jan 19, 2013)

I teach a film photography class.  I don't reuse the d-76 after its mixed 1:1. I DO reuse the stop bath (indicator type) until it starts to show signs of exhaustion, and I reuse the fixer to exhaustion too.  I have some drops I use to tell me if the fixer is exhausted.  I got it from FreeStyle photo.  From my experience fixer will still "fix" past where the drops tell me I should through it out.  So I make it a point to check the fixer every other day to make sure I don't get to the point it is entirely dead, which I have done when I haven't been diligent.


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## Helen B (Jan 19, 2013)

You need to be careful with fixer if you want your film to last - even though it still clears, old fixer can leave complex silver ions behind that don't wash out easily, and they can then slowly reduce to silver. If you want to be as economical as possible with fixer, use two-bath fixing.

Whether it is wise or not to re-use developer depends mostly on the developer and the dilution it was used at. Which developer are you re-using, Anders?


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## Compaq (Jan 19, 2013)

DD-X 1+4 is what I'm using.

I've never considered a two bath fixer process.


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## ann (Jan 19, 2013)

Two bath especially useful when using fiber paper for archival purposes.


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## Josh66 (Jan 19, 2013)

bhop said:


> I mix fresh chemicals each time.  I used to re-use my b&w chemicals, but there doesn't really seem to be a point since the shelf life of the opened bottles are limited.  If I re-used, then my chemicals would be old and weak before I finished the bottles..



The specific developer you're using is a pretty big factor too.

Some developers are meant to be reused (TMax, any C-41 kit, for example), others are one-shot (Rodinal, HC-110, etc).

Undiluted Rodinal and HC-110 pretty much last forever.  Mixed and properly stored TMax dev should last at least a couple of months - maybe up to 6 or more.

TMax is the only (B&W) developer I currently use that I pour back into the bottle.  After a certain number of rolls, you do have to extend the development time, but as long as you keep track of how many rolls you've developed with it I haven't found it to be a big deal.  I can't tell the difference between film developed in freshly mixed TMax and TMax that has 20 or so rolls through it.

Now that I think about it, I think TMax is the _only_ B&W developer I have ever reused...  Fixer and stop bath though, I keep using till it goes bad (I make sure I always have an unopened bottle to mix up in case it goes bad before I expect it to).


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## djacobox372 (Jan 19, 2013)

B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?


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## Josh66 (Jan 19, 2013)

djacobox372 said:


> B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?



Well, yeah - something like Rodinal at roughly $10 for a 500mL bottle - considering that you only use like 5-10mL per roll, I would never even think about trying to reuse it.  Worst case, you're 'only' going to get 50 rolls out of a bottle.

TMax on the other hand, I would only get about 12 rolls out of a 1 gallon bottle if I didn't reuse it.  Considering that the instructions basically tell you to reuse it, I don't think there's any harm.

I personally have never done it, but a lot of people keep Xtol going pretty much indefinitely with replenishment.  They claim it's even better that way...  I've always used Xtol one-shot.


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## timor (Jan 19, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> > B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?
> ...


Tmax developer is great in 1+9 one shot use (25 developments). The best cost effectiveness is with mixing own developers from basic components. Beutler cost about 9 cents per roll of 35mm film.


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## Josh66 (Jan 19, 2013)

How does 1+9 compare to the standard 1+4?  I always see the times for it listed, but have never tried it.

I'm about due to mix up another batch of TMax - I may try using that as one shot 1+9...

Do you mix it from the concentrated developer, or do you make the 1+4 working solution and dilute that?


edit
If my slightly buzzed math is right, I should be able to dilute the 1+4 working solution to 1+1 and that should be 1+9...  Correct?
Or do you find it easier to just mix it straight from the bottle every time?


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## timor (Jan 20, 2013)

Always from the concentrate. Why ? Mixed with water once will not last to long. Same regards HC110. when comes to times of development, can't tell you, I just don't remember my originally established time for TMX in Tmax Dev 1+9 only, all I know, after 11 min in 20C with normal agitation developer is drain and for 3 min film will stand in solution of borax. Results ? Better acutation, smaller grain (actually no grain at all ) and good local contrast with very smooth tones. Hm, once I have to use sodium metaborate to see,, if that will increase the contrast.


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## Helen B (Jan 20, 2013)

When you dilute a developer you are also diluting the preservative in it, so the rate of oxidation during storage tends to rise. There is also less active developing agent in a particular volume, of course. The developing agent has a limited capacity (though some regeneration can happen). This often means that the reused full-strength working solution can develop roughly the same number of films as the dilute developer used one-shot: D-76 is an excellent example. There is an exception when the volume of diluted developer needed to cover the film is greater than the minimum required for development - in which case you would be discarding un-exhausted developer. In that case it can be OK to reuse the dilute developer soon after (there is enough developing agent left, but low concentration of preservative). Remember that there can be two stages of dilution: dilution from a concentrated stock to working strength, and dilution down from working strength.

Two-bath developers like Diafine can be extremely economical. That lasts forever and never really exhausts, it only loses volume because of carry-over.

Two bath fixing is also economical. For any chosen criterion based on the condition of the film or paper leaving the fixer you can show that two bath fixing is the most economical. For a given fixer volume you can either have the greatest throughput or the most archival result, using two-bath fixer. However, fixer is extremely cheap when bought as plain hypo, and that can be used one-shot as it is with no other ingredients.


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## amolitor (Jan 20, 2013)

How pernicious are the "complex silver ions" that get left behind by inadequate fixing?

There have been times now and then when I haven't been 100% sure of my fixer, and I've tested the degree of fixing by applying a little developer to the film-edge under room light. My reasoning is that the developer SHOULD precipitate any remaning halide and let me know what the undeveloped silver content of the film is. If the film-edge remains clear, I figure the film is in pretty good shape, fixing-wise.

Is this reasonable, or is it possible to have interestingly large concentrations of silver compounds that do NOT develop out, but will degrade into silver over time?


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## Helen B (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't know - these are not simple silver halides. The usual test is to use sodium sulphide (Kodak formula ST-1) which is pretty much guaranteed to react with silver complexes.


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## timor (Jan 20, 2013)

Helen B said:


> I don't know - these are not simple silver halides. The usual test is to use sodium sulphide (Kodak formula ST-1) which is pretty much guaranteed to react with silver complexes.


I do it to, 2 min. wash in solution of 20 grams / litre.


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