# Controversial?



## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

My class got commissioned* by the MET police to create some work of the borough to put inside their jail to 'brighten it up'.

I didn't turn up to the pitch because I don't fancy my work being put up inside a prison to be looked at by criminals - what would i get out of that?

Now my classmate is mad at me because he thinks i should be 'greatful' that i'm being commissioned* to show my work. My responce was that THEY [the MET] should be greatful to us because [and here in lyes the reason behind the asterix] they're not actually paying us, they're bumming free work off of students and paying a few bob towards any materials we might need should we run out.

Am I being a pretentious and up myself or do i have a valid point? I feel pretty **** now because he's making me feel like an outcast but I don't know who else turned up and I'm just worried that I've ****ed up, professionally n it might affect my credentials...?


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

Oh and also, i pitched my idea to my lecturer the other week and aparently one of the other lecturers 'stole' my pitch anyway so i would have been humiliated turning up n him presenting my idea before me - i think that's what put me in this frame of mind coz i wasn't too fussed before i heard about that.


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> My class got commissioned* by the MET police to create some work of the borough to put inside their jail to 'brighten it up'.
> 
> I didn't turn up to the pitch because I don't fancy my work being put up inside a prison to be looked at by criminals - what would i get out of that?
> 
> ...



You are being a pompous AZZ 


I think turning your nose up at this work shows your true character, and yes I would be embarrassed 


On several points I think you are off base.  Im betting you  are a criminal on some level, just not caught and maybe not as bad of crime.

Your work in an environment like that might actually help someone get on a new track

Doing work like this is a great learning tool and you are a student

And yes having your work displayed in MET buildings would not look bad on a resume'


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2010)

You can't feed yourself or pay the bills if you work for free. Furthermore publicity, whilst good, only works if it will earn you more jobs and somehow I don't think the services of a photographer will be much needed by those in jail. "Free publicity" is often used to try and get free photos because the company pay nothing and the photographer gets published - most times however all it does is undercut the working professional market and also rarely results in more "paid" work for the photographer (though they might get more "free" work offers)


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

ooh mixed opinions. i think i'm bitter that my work got knicked and i've got so much uni work to do aswell as finding myself a new job and a work placement. there's no way i have the time.

my work wouldn't change anyone! it's not that good, hense i don't show my work to anyone other than my class because i have to.

The piece i was going to produce was going to be a landscape of Dagenham [the borough the prison is being built - which isnt a nice place anyway] shot through a window because there are no windows.


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

I would think nice bright shots of the police in action posted in prison might be nice. Just a thought and whos bob.jk


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

They want FREE artwork. Your time and effort is of no value. Don't bother participating.
When a large, well-funded organization approaches a group of people and encourages that group to provide it with free labor, or work, or goods, or services, the underlying message is, "Hey,your work isn't worth PAYING FOR, so, let us hlep YOU, by you giving us some FREE labor and product." Yeahhhhhh....riiiiiight....you'll gain so,so much by making artwork for those who end up in jail. Tell them to head down to the local mall and the poster shops, where they can purchase ready-made, cheerful posters for $4.99 apiece.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel, that became exactly my viewpoint, i thought the whole concept was odd and that was exactly what they are saying - but if thats true why is my reply from chito so harsh?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow.


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> Derrel, that became exactly my viewpoint, i thought the whole concept was odd and that was exactly what they are saying - but if thats true why is my reply from chito so harsh?



Giving away a few prints will not hurt you one iota,  will it help you probably not. does it help others probably so. 

To me it just shows your character as a human being. 

Some things you do because they are the right thing to do.


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> Derrel, that became exactly my viewpoint, i thought the whole concept was odd and that was exactly what they are saying - but if thats true why is my reply from chito so harsh?




Well, chito feels that, "Doing work like this is a great learning tool and you are a student," so...there might be a clue in there as to how he feels about people who are students. Lots of employers are using students, undergrads and grad students, as basically free labor. Unpaid internships that are really "jobs without pay", working without pay or benefits so that paid workers need no be hired, searching for free labor just to be a cheapskate,etc,etc. Maybe you ought to ask chito why his reply is so harsh. Maybe see if you could book a week's free lodging in his resorts several $150 per night guest lodges...come up with a qualifier as to whom or what you "are", like, "I am a British citizen, so I'd like to rent a cottage for $25 per night...it would look good on your resume as a cultural ambassador."


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## Studio7Four (Nov 12, 2010)

I can see your point, but let me offer this take on it.  I figure they probably gave some guidelines about what they'd like to see.  Interpret those guidelines to your satisfaction; think about how you can put your own spin on that so shoot something that you really want to shoot.  (And if they didn't put any guidelines or restrictions, so much the better.)  If nothing else it's a reason to get out and shoot.

If your picture is chosen, cool.  If not, at least you got out to shoot.  And you get the politically correct appearance of cooperating.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel, that became exactly my viewpoint, i thought the whole concept was odd and that was exactly what they are saying - but if thats true why is my reply from chito so harsh?
> ...



True point, but even with budget cuts the MET is not an underfunded orphanage or animal shelter.


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## tirediron (Nov 12, 2010)

Hmmm...  this is a tough one.  I agree with Derrel that an organization like the Met should be able to stump up a few quid for a project of this nature, HOWEVER, having spent the better part of 25 years in Federal Govenment service, I have no doubt that  a local project of this nature would be something that would be extremely difficult to justify funding for from whomever holds the purse-strings for HM Prisons.  

I would categorize this in the same way that I do projects such as the 'Pets with Santa' that I am doing in a couple of weeks.  A voluntary, charitable donation from which I expect no return.  Having said that, this is NOT a project in which I would participate simply because I don't believe that prisons should be cheerful, happy places.


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## Chamelion 6 (Nov 12, 2010)

I think it's a worthwhile cause.  I'd probably have donated somethng myself.  But that would be my choice.  Do I think any less of you based on your decision or your reasoning?   Not at all.

It's your work.  You have a right to do with it what you want and that means controlling where and under what conditions it gets viewed.  That's a personal thing.  If this particular situation doesn't feel right to you, then you shouldn't feel pushed into it.


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel, that became exactly my viewpoint, i thought the whole concept was odd and that was exactly what they are saying - but if thats true why is my reply from chito so harsh?
> ...




We do give away nights some times for special circumstances and discount for all  armed forces and meet Government rates for those who need a place to stay while working out on the West end of the Peninsula.

We also give weekend packages away for charity.

Yes we have picked up lots of rental nights due to the above mentioned, it is excellent advertising dollar value!


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## reznap (Nov 12, 2010)

I would have done it just for the experience.  Does seem a bit cheesy on MET's part though.


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

Overread said:


> chito beach said:
> 
> 
> > ChevyBaby said:
> ...



Does that make it wrong for you to do the right thing? 

 The MET sponsers many projects like this and I dont think participating would hurt your resume one bit.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

tirediron, again that was my theory, if someone murders someone, rapes someone, burgles someone's house etc.... i just don't think they deserve to spend the time in their cell happy - it's bad enough they're having TVs. Don't get it.

Chito, can i stay for free then, as Derrel says?


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

Some things you do because they are the right thing to do...such as paying your own way and not looking for free handouts when you have a budget totaling millions of pounds sterling...trying to goad people into doing charity work by insulting their character or their beliefs is pretty despicable behavior. But then, it shows one's character as a human being...


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## reznap (Nov 12, 2010)

It's getting hot in here huh?


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:
			
		

> We do give away nights some times for special circumstances and discount for all  armed forces and meet Government rates for those who need a place to stay while working out on the West end of the Peninsula.
> 
> We also give weekend packages away for charity.
> 
> Yes we have picked up lots of rental nights due to the above mentioned, it is excellent advertising dollar value!



Do you have a free rate for rapists, muggers, drug dealers, pimps,car thieves, and child abusers? I'm sure they'd like a lovely resort cabin for free. I laughed at you trying to tell somebody what "the right thing to do is".

Jails are not waiting rooms or hotel lobbies...they're fricking JAILS. What is next chito? Should the MET hit up some furniture stores for some lovely matching sofa and ottoman sets? Maybe ask for some really nice linens from Bed Bath and Beyond's UK counterpart? perhaps lay in a stock of delicious California white zinfandel for those prison meals? Maybe get Gordon Ramsey's TOp Chef people to provide a months worth of delicious, FREE holiday meals for the Christmas season? Should the MET put the touch on a custom builder to re-design some jail cells into lovely suites for the prisoners?
I mean, "it's the right thing to do."


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## tirediron (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Some things you do because they are the right thing to do...such as paying your own way and *not looking for free handouts when you have a budget totaling millions of pounds* sterling...trying to goad people into doing charity work by insulting their character or their beliefs is pretty despicable behavior. But then, it shows one's character as a human being...


 
I think you may be missing the point here Derrel.  I suspect that this is a local initiative which is being done out an [IMO mis-guided] attempt to improve conditions in the prison, and as such has not been sanctioned by higher-authority.  Therefore, in order to realize the project, the only option they have is to solicit charitable donations from the public.  

Is it right?  No, however it is very common.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > chito beach said:
> ...



But how is giving free art to the MET - which is then hidden away in the prison doing "the right thing"? If anything artistic should be shown in there it should be the prisoners own work as part of a skills training scheme based on reconditioning them/preparing them to return to society with the aim that skills training allows them to enter the job market (rather than turning out many who have entered the criminal world because they lack any qualifications to gain a job).


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## Light Artisan (Nov 12, 2010)

"*Controversial?*"

I think that's been answered now.


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## tirediron (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Do you have a free rate for rapists, muggers, drug dealers, pimps,car thieves, and child abusers? I'm sure they'd like a lovely resort cabin for free. I laughed at you trying to tell somebody what "the right thing to do is".
> 
> Jails are not waiting rooms or hotel lobbies...they're fricking JAILS. What is next chito? Should the MET hit up some furniture stores for some lovely matching sofa and ottoman sets? Maybe ask for some really nice linens from Bed Bath and Beyond's UK counterpart? perhaps lay in a stock of delicious California white zinfandel for those prison meals? Maybe get Gordon Ramsey's TOp Chef people to provide a months worth of delicious, FREE holiday meals for the Christmas season? Should the MET put the touch on a custom builder to re-design some jail cells into lovely suites for the prisoners?
> I mean, "it's the right thing to do."


 
Dude, LIGHTEN UP!!!!  I think we get your point, and I can understand being passionate about it, BUT...


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## Chamelion 6 (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Some things you do because they are the right thing to do...such as paying your own way and not looking for free handouts when you have a budget totaling millions of pounds sterling...trying to goad people into doing charity work by insulting their character or their beliefs is pretty despicable behavior. But then, it shows one's character as a human being...


 
Just to play devil's advocate, I presume their budget is at the tax payer's expence and blowing money for art is probably not going to go over really well.  I think their motives in asking were nobel...   

Just like turning it down doesn't say anything about anyone's character.  Turning down a single charity does not make a person uncharitable.  I don't see any moral imperative in giving to this one charity.


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## tirediron (Nov 12, 2010)

Light Artisan said:


> "*Controversial?*"
> 
> I think that's been answered now.


 
:lmao::lmao::lmao:  D'ya think?


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

In regards to being placed in the jail (prison). Is this actually the locations that the prisoners are held or could it be the administration area for the officers, guards, warden or civilian workers?


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

Joe Arpaio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sheriff Joe Arpaio - Google Search

Tents in the hot Arizona sun! Pink underwear! 3 squares and no perks...


versus


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/us/29jail.html?_r=1&em&ex=1178078400&en=4d2f7355559ae210&ei=5087


An $82 per day pay-to-stay JAIL in California!!!


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 12, 2010)

Not sure what the MET police is but I am sure they are funded to fight crime not to buy art. And if they were to buy art with the funds, you'd probably yell "bloody murder" because they are funded with your tax money. I know I would.

So, I'm with chito on that one. It may not do much for you financially but you actually never know.

Years ago, my wife worked for a school for kids who couldn't function in the "normal" school system. I went there once a semester to talk to the kids about my work and theirs. Believe me it was worth the little bit of time and income loss. Right now I'm working with one of my assistant in starting a photo club in one of the "Banlieues." It may very well pay off in free publicity... the same way that the school did when we set up a show of the students' work.

But even if it didn't/doesn't, not everything in life needs to be about money.


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Not sure what the MET police is but I am sure they are funded to fight crime not to buy art. And if they were to buy art with the funds, you'd probably yell "bloody murder" because they are funded with your tax money. I know I would.
> 
> So, I'm with chito on that one. It may not do much for you financially but you actually never know.
> 
> ...





MET is the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  At least that is who commissioned the students.

The MET's income from last year

*Income Statement     (FYE 06/2009)*

*Revenue*                                                                         Primary Revenue                   $175,057,041                                                     Other Revenue                   $143,997,613                                                     *Total Revenue* *$319,054,654* *Expenses*                                                                         Program Expenses                   $296,700,720                                                     Administrative Expenses                   $45,388,550                                                     Fundraising Expenses                   $9,489,974                                                     *Total Functional Expenses* *$351,579,244*                                                                                                                               Payments to Affiliates                    $0                                                     Excess (or Deficit) for the year                    $-32,524,590



They really are not rolling in the dough.

The MET spends millions each year to stand up for artists and promote all sorts of art programs around the country.


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## white (Nov 12, 2010)

> My class got commissioned* by the MET police to create some work of the borough to put inside their jail to 'brighten it up'.
> 
> I didn't turn up to the pitch because I don't fancy my work being put up  inside a prison to be looked at by criminals - what would i get out of  that?


Oh, I dunno: exposure, maybe. Will your name be accompanying your photo? You never say.

Getting your name out there and getting your art into the real world is important if you wish to do exhibitions, etc.

Yes, I think you are being rather douchy about it.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

To me, it wasn't about money, that aspect just added to insult (The MET is London's police force)

I've worked with disabled adults, my dad ran a place for them and i done alot of work for them for free. I'm all for charity, just not all for giving my work to a prison. I would feel infuriated knowing my tax money has been used to make a rapist smile rather than putting another rapist in the can.


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## Ron Evers (Nov 12, 2010)

Now I wonder if Conman Black was in one of those pay for privilege jails in the US.  You know, the Queens hand picked Lord.


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 12, 2010)

Overread said:


> If anything artistic should be shown in there it should be the prisoners own work as part of a skills training scheme based on reconditioning them/preparing them to return to society with the aim that skills training allows them to enter the job market (rather than turning out many who have entered the criminal world because they lack any qualifications to gain a job).



But seeing decent art may be the motivation to enter such a program if there is one. Art is extremely important to having the right balance intellectually as can be seen by the results obtained by kids in art high schools in the US compared to those in regular schools.

But would they get motivated or interested by seeing their own work of probably low quality if they even think of creating anything?


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## tirediron (Nov 12, 2010)

Ron Evers said:


> Now I wonder if Conman Black was in one of those pay for privilege jails in the US. You know, the Queens hand picked Lord.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:


> MET is the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  At least that is who commissioned the students.
> 
> The MET's income from last year
> 
> ...



DUDE youve totally got the wrong end of the stick, the MET in England is the METROPOLITAN POLICE. Nothin to do with art.. just the police....


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:


> MET is the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  At least that is who commissioned the students.
> 
> The MET's income from last year
> 
> ...



:lmao:

That did not sound quite right. At least, I'd never heard of a museum with a jail 

So, are you changing your mind now that you know what it really is?


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > If anything artistic should be shown in there it should be the prisoners own work as part of a skills training scheme based on reconditioning them/preparing them to return to society with the aim that skills training allows them to enter the job market (rather than turning out many who have entered the criminal world because they lack any qualifications to gain a job).
> ...



Careful that takes the base line assumption that the prisoners can't make their own good art. Further how is it inspiring to see uni level art from graduate students in a prison - if anything most of the prisoners might be resenting the graduate students because uni is something they could never afford not even entertain the idea of taking part in - in a way it could be rather rubbing salt in the wound of any lurking great artists in the prison


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## chito beach (Nov 12, 2010)

I was wrong about who the MET was..........sorry about that.  IT was the only MET I knew about......MY bad, but I will still stand my my comments that it would not hurt you in any way shape or form to.  In the end you do what you think is right.  

i understand you not wishing to show your work in a prison.  

But we also read and hear on how one small thing has changed the direction of that criminal looking for a chance.

I guess Im the guy who is always looking for the good that something can do rather than assuming the worst.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

so now you know who the MET are, you still think i'm a terrible person for not wanting to give my work away, to a prison, for free where i personally feel it will get destroyed by raging inmates who wish they were free because one murder wasn't satisfying enough for them.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

i mean i was lookin for opinions but your first post reduced me to tears and im not a bad person, all i ever do is give!


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

vtf said:


> In regards to being placed in the jail (prison). Is this actually the locations that the prisoners are held or could it be the administration area for the officers, guards, warden or civilian workers?


 ?????


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 12, 2010)

Overread said:


> Careful that takes the base line assumption that the prisoners can't make their own good art. Further how is it inspiring to see uni level art from graduate students in a prison - if anything most of the prisoners might be resenting the graduate students because uni is something they could never afford not even entertain the idea of taking part in - in a way it could be rather rubbing salt in the wound of any lurking great artists in the prison



I do agree with the quality of student work maybe not being any better than that of the prisoners but I didn't want to say it :lmao:

There are artists in jail and some very good ones too but they are a very small minority so you are denying the chance to most prisoners to see and get inspired by art for the sake of a very few...


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

the Graphics clas have been signed up to do the admin, vtf. we've been given the corridors that lead toward the cells and holding rooms etc (which are not set up to display our work in terms of colour scheme and rail placement - we were clearly an afterthought) and the padded room where.. something happens.. i cant remember what now.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 12, 2010)

we all make choices of who we decide to help or not help. if it is not something that is required by your school to do, and you dont want to do it, then don't do it, your classmates to me seem to be acting like a bunch of idiots.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

oh midn you, we were also assigned part of the cafeteria but i know MY work won't be put there because a few people already called it.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> There are artists in jail and some very good ones too but they are a very small minority so you are denying the chance to most prisoners to see and get inspired by art for the sake of a very few...



Aye but they still have prison libraries and most have access to TVs as well. So there is already a source of creative info there for them to tap into. I just don't feel that random student art on prison walls is the right approach


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

Imo its up to you. Like any charity you do not have the moral obligation to contribute against your moral or better judgement. I dont hold this against you nor should anyone else or less they be judged.
In saying this ,I do believe the arts behind the wall will help some less violent criminals but you can't save everyone and in the end you make the choice of who you try to.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 12, 2010)

there are enough charities out there that you could spend an hour per charity 24 charities a day every day for the rest of your life  and you still probably wont hit every charity there are. just because you choose not to support this one single charity does not make you a bad or pompous person.


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## NCAFLeo88 (Nov 12, 2010)

Studio7Four said:


> And you get the politically correct appearance of cooperating.



**** that, I shoot to make ME happy, not someone else. If you don't like it, not my problem, especially if you are not paying.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

i just feel the need to point out that this isn't a charity. I have to legally pay the government out of my wages because they demand it to catch criminals and now i know what they're actually spending it on. They're sure as hell acting like a chairty but the London police force is far from a charity case.


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> i just feel the need to point out that this isn't a charity. I have to legally pay the government out of my wages because they demand it to catch criminals and now i know what they're actually spending it on. They're sure as hell acting like a chairty but the London police force is far from a charity case.


 
We do it for our schools in the US every day. Mostly basic necessities.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

when i was in school, the only charity i had to do was the 'can festival' where we gave old people canned goods near xmas lol.


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

In grade and high school this is to teach you civic duty.
I think you would be hard pressed to find any government agency that didnt have a charity side. Whether our schools, the military and yes even the grand IRS in the States. All have people doing charitable functions within them. Whether you contribute still I think is up to you unless governed by school rules or such.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

i doubt the university even knows about it, i think the MET directly contacted our lecturers about it, often happens because our lecturers are freelance and contracted photographers like Mark Lebon from Vogue magazine - and i know that HE won't be a part of it!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> i just feel the need to point out that this isn't a charity. I have to legally pay the government out of my wages because they demand it to catch criminals and now i know what they're actually spending it on. They're sure as hell acting like a chairty but the London police force is far from a charity case.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 12, 2010)

lmao bj you noticed what i done wrong there then? i noticed after i posted but then didnt know ow to edit it!


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## NikonNewbie (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrel said:


> They want FREE artwork. Your time and effort is of no value. Don't bother participating.
> When a large, well-funded organization approaches a group of people and encourages that group to provide it with free labor, or work, or goods, or services, the underlying message is, "Hey,your work isn't worth PAYING FOR, so, let us hlep YOU, by you giving us some FREE labor and product." Yeahhhhhh....riiiiiight....you'll gain so,so much by making artwork for those who end up in jail. Tell them to head down to the local mall and the poster shops, where they can purchase ready-made, cheerful posters for $4.99 apiece.


 

Like this one...


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## vtf (Nov 12, 2010)

Like this one...






[/QUOTE]
Always a crowd pleaser:cheer:


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## kundalini (Nov 12, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> My class got commissioned* by the MET police to create some work of the borough to put inside their jail to 'brighten it up'.
> 
> I didn't turn up to the pitch because I don't fancy my work being put up inside a prison to be looked at by criminals - what would i get out of that?
> 
> ...


I stopped reading here and could care less what the other responses are.

You're a beginner, from what I've gathered.  People incarcerated are just people for the most part.  The only difference is that they got nicked.

Shame on you for riding your horse so high.  It's a long fall to the floor.

/end because this pisses me off.


BTW, *grateful* is what I think you are intending.


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

chito beach said:
			
		

> MET is the Metropolitan Museum of Art.  At least that is who commissioned the students.
> 
> The MET's income from last year
> 
> ...



Uh, maybe THAT incredibly massive failure is why your answers were so self-righteous.....naw...

The MET is the OP's case is the greater London police department...Metropolitan Police Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Geeze...reading comprehension,dude...


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2010)

tirediron said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a free rate for rapists, muggers, drug dealers, pimps,car thieves, and child abusers? I'm sure they'd like a lovely resort cabin for free. I laughed at you trying to tell somebody what "the right thing to do is".
> ...



Look at his response above,,,he thought the MET was the Metroplitan Museum of Art...in the USA...the OP is in London, England...I'm not sure that "he" got my point....it took another 20-25 posts before he figured out what he was rambling on about...so when you said ,"I think we get your point", uh, no "we" did not "get" the "point"..."we" were about 6,000 miles off the point...


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## kundalini (Nov 12, 2010)

Derrell, as we both know, it's a big world out there.  Some people have a much smaller radius for comparison sake.  Settle.  Agreed, but settle.


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## Ron Evers (Nov 12, 2010)

Well, I have read through the whole thread.  Firstly it was clear the op was talking about the London police (no I am not a Brit).   So, I found chito's post off the mark & offensive to the op in that he was assuming he had the right to judge character.   Therefore, I considered his post not worthy of a response.  I certainly was sympathetic to the OP.  But now the thread continued & I was less than impressed with some of the folk here that I normally respect. As entertaining as threads of this sort might be to vacuous viewers, I find them disturbing.  

To the OP, I neither agree or disagree with your decision but I applaud you for taking a stand on YOUR principals.


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## Light Artisan (Nov 12, 2010)

Let's all grab our cameras and sing Skip to my Lou and forget about this one.


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## Heck (Nov 12, 2010)

If your not feeling it then don't do it and don't let others make you feel bad about your personal decision. This reminds me of a prison art story. Salvador Dali gave Rikers Island prison a work of art to hang in the lobby. It was stolen and replaced by a fake by one of the guards lol.. It was valued at around 100 grand. How ironic.


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 13, 2010)

Well, I probably wouldn't do this, but you could always tell Mark Lebon that you'll do it if he does. 

You're not a bad person. If anyone says you are then they are double bad for every single charity they have ever turned down whether it be giving a dollar for cancer at wal mart or free photography.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

kundalini said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > My class got commissioned* by the MET police to create some work of the borough to put inside their jail to 'brighten it up'.
> ...



yeah i thought 'greatful' didn't look right...

I dunno if i class as a beginner in the way you're trying to imply, i've been doing photography since i was 16 but i think this is a moral thing in my mind, i have no horse, just no confidence in my work when put in this situation...


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## enzodm (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> tirediron, again that was my theory, if someone murders someone, rapes someone, burgles someone's house etc.... i just don't think they deserve to spend the time in their cell happy - it's bad enough they're having TVs. Don't get it.



But you justified this theory with the fact you are not paid, something different.

Anyway, depending on your specific law, prisons are not always punishment places but also correctional places, where people can be put in the hope of making them better (first time you will be put in jail because drunk we will discuss this again  ). A civil surrounding may help for this aim. 
Of course, although I'm not with you, you have the right to believe all such bad people do not deserve your beautiful art; but please do not mask this thought with commercial considerations. If UK is like Italy, public institutions are not having much to spend in extra things.  These kind of actions are often done by charities working with prisoners to help them in coming back to society.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

LOL i dont drink so i wont get there! but maybe for running someone over on a bad day, i swear, driving is a nightmare on a rainy night.

I had never thought about it being a correctional facility though... i'm starting to reconsider and just put somethin together for fun, if i like it i might offer it up.  I just have many issues with it both personally, morally and speaking of my own belief in myself and my work.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Nov 13, 2010)

She spells pretentious correctly, but not, grateful, response, or asterisk, most "peculier"

Yeah, I think you should take this as a way for exposure. Sure inmates might not give you any business, but corrections officers, lawyers, wardens, doctors, civilian staff, etc that see your work, may.

I will add though, that its your work. If you don't want to do it, at the end of the day its your call not anyone else's.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

LOL goonies, my English Language went downhill after primary school for some reason!


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## point-&-shoot (Nov 13, 2010)

i completely agree with your decision. i would do the same thing. i have no respect for those who have no respect for not only laws but others. why would i give them a gift? why would i want to brighten up their lives? prison is a joke, they have it to easy IMO. i hope you stick with your decision.
kyle


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

aww thanks kyle for the most blunt and simple answer.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Nov 13, 2010)

point-&-shoot said:


> i completely agree with your decision. i would do the same thing. i have no respect for those who have no respect for not only laws but others. why would i give them a gift? why would i want to brighten up their lives? prison is a joke, they have it to easy IMO. i hope you stick with your decision.
> kyle


 
Cause happy and calm inmates are less likely to shank the guard. They do have too many rights, like the right not to be beaten when they throw a handful of their own feces at a passing guard.  Also, the officers would benefit from the sprucing up as well. As lovely as it is checking incoming inmates for keistered contraband I am sure they would much rather look at Chevy's artwork during their day.


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## Derrel (Nov 13, 2010)

chito beach said:
			
		

> You are being a pompous AZZ
> 
> 
> I think turning your nose up at this work shows your true character, and yes I would be embarrassed
> ...



How do you reconcile the following statement you made with the first set of statements and allegations? The OP is a, "pompus azz", and "a criminal on some level", just not caught....and somehow you're the guy who is always looking for "the good", "rather than assuming the worst". Snort!



			
				chito beach said:
			
		

> I guess Im the guy who is always looking for the good that something can do rather than assuming the worst.


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## Arch (Nov 13, 2010)

Do i really need to step in here and start handing out infractions?... really?

Come on guys, you all know not to make personal attacks on each other, that includes the 'pompus azz' statement and the comments made to counter it... if someone is rude, press the report button and one of us will take care of them... some of you are old enough to know better.

To the OP, as a fellow Brit, i'd say do exactly as you please and disregard peoples criticisms... the subject of crime/prison/punishment etc is ALWAYS going to attract people from both sides... if someone is trying to shame you for your own opinion then they aren't intelligent enough to realize this.

Edit: BTW i keep reading your name as Chavybaby.... sorry i don't mean to!!


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## kundalini (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> I dunno if i class as a beginner in the way you're trying to imply, i've been doing photography since i was 16 but i think this is a moral thing in my mind, i have no horse, just no confidence in my work when put in this situation...


 My apologies if I confused you with someone else as a beginner.  It is quite possible because I was easily confused last night.  I also have been shooting since I was 16, but that was in 1974.  

Your moral dilemma is something you'll have to reconcile with yourself.  But a question to ask is, if your artwork was on display at any gallery, would visitors need to file an affidavit declaring they have never been incarcerated.  Or is it just a person's current status that has importance?  Not all inmates receive a life sentence.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

Arch said:


> Do i really need to step in here and start handing out infractions?... really?
> 
> Come on guys, you all know not to make personal attacks on each other, that includes the 'pompus azz' statement and the comments made to counter it... if someone is rude, press the report button and one of us will take care of them... some of you are old enough to know better.
> 
> ...



Lol how very daaarree you! I'm merely a lover of the 1969 Chevy Impala [sad face] lol although i am currently sat here in my LA Gear trackies and Uggs.... oh deeeaaarrr but thats my dossing clothes!!!



kundalini said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno if i class as a beginner in the way you're trying to imply, i've been doing photography since i was 16 but i think this is a moral thing in my mind, i have no horse, just no confidence in my work when put in this situation...
> ...



That's a good point.... i think it's the idea that you are put in prison to serve a punishment and during that time you should be 'thinking about what you've done' as my mother used to tell me when i was naughty!


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## Arch (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> Lol how very daaarree you! I'm merely a lover of the 1969 Chevy Impala [sad face] lol although i am currently sat here in my LA Gear trackies and Uggs.... oh deeeaaarrr but thats my dossing clothes!!!



I know, i am a bad person for thinking that...... besides iv not yet heard of a chav who is into photography so i doubt that one even exsists... certainly not someone wearing labeled trackies and Uggs.....

wait....



J/K


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## vtf (Nov 13, 2010)

Lol how very daaarree you! I'm merely a lover of the *1969 Chevy Impala* [sad face] lol although i am currently sat here in my LA Gear trackies and Uggs.... oh deeeaaarrr but thats my dossing clothes!!!

You have just increased your creditbility ten fold


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

Arch said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > Lol how very daaarree you! I'm merely a lover of the 1969 Chevy Impala [sad face] lol although i am currently sat here in my LA Gear trackies and Uggs.... oh deeeaaarrr but thats my dossing clothes!!!
> ...



It's really funny you say that coz where i study my degree, people also study their National Diploma so theyre all like 16/17 year olds out of school and most of them are bright orange chavs who give up by the end of the first year. its like they only study it coz they wanna model....


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> I dunno if i class as a beginner in the way you're trying to imply, i've been doing photography since i was 16


 
:lmao:


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## PerfectlyFlawed (Nov 13, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Joe Arpaio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Sheriff Joe Arpaio - Google Search
> 
> Tents in the hot Arizona sun! Pink underwear! 3 squares and no perks...
> ...



F'n Love Joe Arpaio for giving this damn state ( Arizona ) Some balls.

EDITED: However, publicity makes it out as those are *all* of Arizona's Prisons. The ( high risk/ High level security) prisons/jails here dont F**k around -- no pretty paintings...no cheerful pictures, Pink underwear and outside cages in  118 degree F. They screwed up, thats why they're in Prison. Its a punishment not a privileged  ( or vacation )... Why *give* to the people who make the streets unsafe and make their time easier. 

 I used to know a few people *in* prison... and coming from knowing 'how' they do sh*t on the inside, asking for so many handouts is...kind of bullsh*t, they have their own art programs, painting supplies ( and artists' ) at hand... they have art classes in most ( low level security ) prisons..  
to walk into a visitation hall, and see canvas' and murals, paintings, sketches,(most which were amazing talent)  jewelry, knitting... and cameras.. then turn around asking for the *public* handouts...  I have no sympathy for the inmates there.

Obviously if they have been 'granted' that privilege--why cant they make theyre own art to hang?! Ya know?!


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno if i class as a beginner in the way you're trying to imply, i've been doing photography since i was 16
> ...



??

And vtf, thanks, you've no idea how obsessed i am with it, it reminds me of my dad's JAGAR XJ6 from like the ealry 90s - but BIGGER! lol plus, Supernatural helps its rep around here.


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## vtf (Nov 13, 2010)

And vtf, thanks, you've no idea how obsessed i am with it, it reminds me of my dad's JAGAR XJ6 from like the ealry 90s - but BIGGER! lol plus, Supernatural helps its rep around here.[/QUOTE]

It is a classic, a high school friend in '81 had a 69 Camaro rs/ss with a 396 4 on the floor and posi track he bought for $1800 back then. It got toasted when someone ran a red light and took it out. The engine rated at over 550 hp. I would easily take a 69 Chevy Impala with a 454, its a beast. Those cars will never be matched.:thumbup:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > ChevyBaby said:
> ...


 
Yeah, I didn't think you would.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

vtf said:


> And vtf, thanks, you've no idea how obsessed i am with it, it reminds me of my dad's JAGAR XJ6 from like the ealry 90s - but BIGGER! lol plus, Supernatural helps its rep around here.


 
It is a classic, a high school friend in '81 had a 69 Camaro rs/ss with a 396 4 on the floor and posi track he bought for $1800 back then. It got toasted when someone ran a red light and took it out. The engine rated at over 550 hp. I would easily take a 69 Chevy Impala with a 454, its a beast. Those cars will never be matched.:thumbup:[/QUOTE]

AHH shiiiiiiit!



Bitter Jeweler said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



Enlighten me? Is 16 a bad age to start? Don't get it.


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## Ron Evers (Nov 13, 2010)

Perhaps Bitter does not see a big difference (experience) between age 16 & your present age Chevy.  

I am of the opinion that folk in your age group learn much faster than the old farts.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

I'd say from the age of 16 to the age of 22 is a very large age gap. I've progressed a long way since then and had professional training and critisism by some of England's most acclaimed photographers.

I find that very patronising and degrading just because he's twice my age and thinks he's my superior. I'd rather listen to Mark Lebon.


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## Ron Evers (Nov 13, 2010)

> I'd say from the age of 16 to the age of 22 is a very large age gap.



Laf.  I used to think that too & I suspect, so did Bitter.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 13, 2010)

he's no idea what i've been through in my life to make me grow and how it's inspired my work. 6 years of intense education has taught me everything you guys talk about in this forum and more so how am i inferior?

The only thing that's different is my training has been focused mainly on analogue cameras up until now when ive started showing an interest in digital which uses entirely different methods but as far as this particular thread is concerned, he shouldn't have been judging that.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 13, 2010)

I am laughing at your attitude, in this and other threads. 


I am not claiming any supiority. I still consider myself a beginner. I have a longer history in art, than I do photography. 

Carry on.


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## chito beach (Nov 13, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> I'd say from the age of 16 to the age of 22 is a very large age gap. I've progressed a long way since then and had professional training and critisism by some of England's most acclaimed photographers.
> 
> I find that very patronising and degrading just because he's twice my age and thinks he's my superior. I'd rather listen to Mark Lebon.



so what professional training did you receive?

and we must know about these acclaimed photogs from England who personally critiqued your work.

inquiring minds want to know!?


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

My attitude? Well i feel slightly bullied.. i'm one of the most timid people you'd ever meet - maybe typed words come across differently than how im speaking?

i'd say im a beginner, hense i'm in this forum rather than the other forum, but i just got the impression you was tryna patronise me, i have a longer history in my baking techniques than photography but i'm still ok at what i do.

and chito i already said mark lebon is one of my lecturers, which i feel very proud and priviledged to say. i've also met with the creator of Kilamanjaro magazine and Eileen Perrier (who is awesome, loved her!)


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## gsgary (Nov 14, 2010)

Overread said:


> chito beach said:
> 
> 
> > ChevyBaby said:
> ...



The Met waste money like you wouldn't believe, my partner went down to London to help the Met with the tube bombings she was put up in a 5 star hotel, people went from all over the country the bill went into the £ millions just on hotel bills, they wouldn't get my shots for free


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## chito beach (Nov 14, 2010)

gsgary said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > chito beach said:
> ...



You are 100% correct those why went to help in that tragic event should have been put up in tents and given bologna sandwiches!  

How dare they take care of those who helped!


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

chito are you just in a bad mood at the moment?
Millions is excessive.


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## chito beach (Nov 14, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> chito are you just in a bad mood at the moment?
> Millions is excessive.



Im in a great mood!  thanks for asking!


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## bentcountershaft (Nov 14, 2010)

It would be nice for us spectating if you folks could keep the drama in just one thread.  This jumping back and forth is confusing and has to go.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

lol chito, good  you just seem angry lately n when i first met you, you were happy!


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 14, 2010)

Well, for the record, the Supernatural Impala is a 67.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

TOTAL misprint there i assure you, i must have 69 on the brain at the mo!


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## jake337 (Nov 14, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> tirediron, again that was my theory, if someone murders someone, rapes someone, burgles someone's house etc.... i just don't think they deserve to spend the time in their cell happy - it's bad enough they're having TVs. Don't get it.
> 
> 
> > _*VERY*_ naive statement.


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## vtf (Nov 14, 2010)

Blake.Oney said:


> Well, for the record, the Supernatural Impala is a 67.


Oops I was thinking of the '69 Chevelle


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

ahh damn vtf, i thought we were kindrid spirits lol


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 14, 2010)

Haha in defense, they are very similar. Supernatural is awesome. This argument is not.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

i'm so glad this thread has moved onto talking about Supernatural, was gettin a sweat on for a while!


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## vtf (Nov 14, 2010)

I love the old muscle cars over anything today. To be truthful I'm a Ford man, nothing purs like a '69 Mustang with a 428 but I wouldn't turn down a Chevy at my age.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 14, 2010)

my first car was an escort, then i got an escort encore n now i drive a peugoet, which i dont think i can even spell correctly, but i love her coz she has power steering LOL!!
My next car will almost definitely be the [i wanna say '94] JAG XJ6 though, i call it the 'mini chevy' lol.


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## Ron Evers (Nov 14, 2010)

Nice we have lightened up here.

My past was in highway & bridge construction.  We had a new hire engineer from the UK who was required to report on old pavement trials that had not been properly followed up.  As a matter of peer review I noticed several references to the term "oil lane" in reference to pavement surfaces.  Not being a term I understood, I questioned him as to the meaning of this phrase.  "You know, the streak of oil on the pavement between the wheel paths" was his answer.  Only in Briton, was my answer.  However, I did understand as in my misguided youth I owned an Austin & a Triumph.


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