# Adobe Photoshop



## jeffashman (Apr 5, 2021)

I'm looking at the subscriptions, and would like to ask the following questions from People who aren't bots or working for the vendor. 
1) LR+PS is $10/mo while PS alone is $20/mo. Does that sound right?
2) Does PS automatically upload your work the the 20GB that they provide as part of the package? Between Flickr, MS, Google, and Amazon, I don't need another location to upload my pix.
3) For those that use PS, I'm guessing that you find $10/mo to worth the cost, can you point out some of the benefits?

Thanks in advance!


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## smoke665 (Apr 5, 2021)

The $20/mo plan includes Photoshop on desktop and iPad, 100GB of cloud storage, Adobe Fresco, Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Fonts, and Adobe Spark.

The $9.99/mo plan includes desktop or cloud LR, PS, Bridge and 20 Gb.

I dont like the cloud and use desktop versions on all.  For me I more than get my money's worth, but I process a lot of  images in a shoot. There are similar less expensive options, but none that provide me the same processing capabilities as Adobe, unless it might be the the more expensive Capture One, but that doesn't have the file management capabilities.


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## jeffashman (Apr 5, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> The $20/mo plan includes Photoshop on desktop and iPad, 100GB of cloud storage, Adobe Fresco, Adobe Portfolio, Adobe Fonts, and Adobe Spark.
> 
> The $9.99/mo plan includes desktop or cloud LR, PS, Bridge and 20 Gb.
> 
> I dont like the cloud and use desktop versions on all.  For me I more than get my money's worth, but I process a lot of  images in a shoot. There are similar less expensive options, but none that provide me the same processing capabilities as Adobe, unless it might be the the more expensive Capture One, but that doesn't have the file management capabilities.


Thanks!


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## Rickbb (Apr 5, 2021)

I have the $10 plan but rarely use photoshop, LR mostly and never use the cloud storage. I have a OneDrive account that has a terabyte of storage. I have LR installed on 3 desktops, work, home and a laptop. Seems to work for me.


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## jeffashman (Apr 5, 2021)

Thanks!


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## Jeff15 (Apr 6, 2021)

I use Photoshop Elements 20, one payment of £59...


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## Original katomi (Apr 6, 2021)

Re post 6
I use pse 9  paid a one off payment
Ok some day I will have to upgrade


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## smoke665 (Apr 6, 2021)

Expanding on another comment above on cloud storage, I use it occasionally but I dont like the idea of being dependent on an internet connection. To many things can go wrong.

For storage, my current work is on a secondary HHD in the computer. As images and work age they're transferred to a 6TB external archive drive, with a directory that mirrors the internal drive. This archive drive is also in my LR catalog giving me instant access anytime I need it. So long as I use Bridge or LR to do file moves my LR catalog is automatically updated.

Another 8TB drive serves as my backup using a sync software that duplicates my working drives. Prior to moving images to this drive I use the batch processing capabilities of LR to embed the processing information in the file. This one is stored in a heavy duty fireproof safe. As the images on the 8TB archive drive age out or are no longer needed, they're transferred to archival grade DVDs which go into the safe.

My workflow is Bridge, LR, PS. In Bridge I do my first culling, then apply certain presets in a batch operation. In LR, I finalize culling, perform minor editing functions, then send it to PS for final editing. Back in, LR, I crop and export as required.


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## PJM (Apr 6, 2021)

I have the $10 LR subscription plan.  I only use the cloud when I'm traveling.  I download my photos to my iPad which then syncs them to the cloud.  When I get home I download from the cloud to my desktop where I do most of my processing.  Then I delete them from the cloud.  I occasionally do some processing on the iPad but usually just simple stuff.

I have not used PS.... yet.


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## Original katomi (Apr 6, 2021)

The only time I used the cloud was in the early days of photo bucket 
I lost a lots of images , I moved and changed/ lost old e mail acc so could no longer access the pics
Who knows they are still out there somewhere


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## Rickbb (Apr 6, 2021)

One of the things I like about MS OneDrive is you don't have to have cloud only. You can chose to keep the files on the desktop and cloud. I have OneDrive installed on 4 PC's and any changed or new files I put in any of the OneDrive folders on any device gets copied to all the PC's in the background. It's like having 4 instant, always on backup systems.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

Jeff15 said:


> I use Photoshop Elements 20, one payment of £59...



I have PSE, but not wholly impressed. It keeps choking trying to import my photo library, and taking my entire PC down. That shouldn’t happen on a machine with 32GB of memory and six 3.6GHz cores. I need to dig deeper into PSEs capabilities.


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## smoke665 (Apr 6, 2021)

Rickbb said:


> You can chose to keep the files on the desktop and cloud.



I have One Drive and Google Drive, that I use occasionally for sharing, but I don't use either in sync mode, especially to cloud. My internet speeds are barely acceptable where we live. Having synch active really slows everything down and is redundant to my hardware storage anyhow. You can also do the same thing automatically in LR, synchronizing with your Adobe storage.


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## smoke665 (Apr 6, 2021)

jeffashman said:


> I have PSE, but not wholly impressed. It keeps choking



I've said it many times before that I cringe when these questions on which software to use come up, because they usually descend into a "My free, low cost, nonsubscription plan is better".  I've not heard of any problems with PSE but never used it. Several years ago I used Corel Paintshop, which actually was a pretty good alternative to PS, however it had a bad habit of crashing in the middle of an edit. 

I look at from the standpoint of need. If I was only doing minor edits on one or two images, then the lessor cost options would be feasible, but I'm not.


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## Jeff15 (Apr 6, 2021)

I have been using Photoshop Elements for about 20 years and several versions with no problems at all.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> jeffashman said:
> 
> 
> > I have PSE, but not wholly impressed. It keeps choking
> ...



I understand. My original question was regarding PS specifically, and what I’m most interested in is why people like it. PSE was a side trail. [emoji6] It’s a useful tool, but doesn’t like importing HEIC images. End goal though, is on people’s thoughts on the full blown PS, and is it worth the annual investment. Thanks, your input is valued! [emoji846]


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## smoke665 (Apr 6, 2021)

jeffashman said:


> End goal though, is on people’s thoughts on the full blown PS, and is it worth the annual investment.



See earlier comment. The subscription isn't just for PS. My workflow incorporates Bridge, LR, and PS. For that it is definitely worth the investment.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> jeffashman said:
> 
> 
> > End goal though, is on people’s thoughts on the full blown PS, and is it worth the annual investment.
> ...



Thanks! I’m looking at the LR/PS sub. Bridge looks like it would be a good addition.


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## Ysarex (Apr 6, 2021)

jeffashman said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > jeffashman said:
> ...


Yes, at $10.00 a month and given it's capabilities PS is absolutely worth it. However if you get it try and avoid using it like it was a plague. Use LR instead.

The difference is about workflow. Photoshop is fundamentally a raster editor. Lightroom is fundamentally a parametric editor. If you can do it, using a parametric editor provides some significant advantages. The "if" at the front of that last sentence is hugely significant.

First, what are the advantages of using only a parametric editor:
1. A raw workflow that is 100% non-destructive and non-linearly re-editable.
2. Reduced file management complexity.
3. Huge reduction in required disk storage.

So why use the raster editor? Because you need what it can do. A raster editor is a pixel pusher. You can get extremely precise and literally address a pixel in your image. Pixel pushers can cut and paste between images like take someone's open eyes from one photo and combine them with a better smile in another. Pixel pushers can do detailed re-touch work like skin re-touch or remove objects from an image. The parametric editors are much less capable of this type of work. Pixel pushers can isolate an article of clothing and change it's color. A parametric editor might be able to do the same but often in a less polished manner.

But the pixel pusher pays for what they get. You have to save the layered raster files -- in Photoshop a PSD or TIFF file. Over a parametric editor think 80% more disk space and of course it's an extra file. The other price pixel pushers pay is an inability to go back and easily make adjustments/changes. You can spend considerable time and effort pushing around some pixels and then come back 6 months later and decide you want to change something and realize: Oh crap! I have to do all that work over to make the change.

So avoid the extra files to manage by avoiding PS.
So avoid the extra disk storage required by avoiding PS.
And avoid getting caught having to re-do work unnecessarily by avoiding PS.
But if you need to push pixels you need PS.

I edit photos every day. I start with a raw file in every instance. I start let's say in LR (I use an LR alternative but same idea) and 99.9% of the time I finish in LR. I avoid the pixel pusher penalty in all but a few photos.

The Adobe photo deal at $10.00 month is one of the best deals out there to give you best possible tools at a good price. (I pay more for that LR alternative -- it's in part a specific camera issue). I recommend LR for most people.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

Thank you! This is very helpful. 


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## Nevermore1 (Apr 6, 2021)

Yes. The photography plan is worth the $10 a month.  I have the full plan as my daughter uses the illustration apps as well, I would definitely use the photography plan if I didn't need the other apps as well.  I primarily use PS for my editing but that's because that's what I'm used to and haven't really learned LR yet (I went from PSE to PS).


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## Original katomi (Apr 6, 2021)

Jeff not sure but I think that pse has a limit of 3Gb


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## smoke665 (Apr 6, 2021)

Ysarex said:


> Lightroom is fundamentally a parametric editor. If you can do it, using a parametric editor provides some significant advantages. The "if" at the front of that last sentence is hugely significant.



This follows along with my earlier statement that Bridge, Lr and PS are all a part of my workflow as they contribute to the process. However in use I've found Lr to be very limited in anything but the basic edits. The problem comes in when you start using adjustment brushes on a lot of images at once. I have fairly fast system, and it will still bog down to a crawl as the edits mount. This has always been a problem with Lr (though it's better than it used to be). Still tracking all those edits so they can be undone takes processing power. Actually since the latest update to Bridge I can edit straight from Bridge in ACR, then go to PS, bypassing Lr on the front end for the basic edits.

While it's true that Ps doesn't have quite the flexibility of a parametric editor, that doesn't mean you "have to" lose everything to start over either. Clicking in the history (depending on your settings) can take you all the way back to the beginning or anywhere in between. Practicing an orderly transition on your editing layers, groups and creating layers as smart objects, makes it fairly easy to undo things without losing everything.


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## Ysarex (Apr 6, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > Lightroom is fundamentally a parametric editor. If you can do it, using a parametric editor provides some significant advantages. The "if" at the front of that last sentence is hugely significant.
> ...


Agreed. That is one of LR's big weaknesses. It can do it on paper but once you roll up your sleeves and dig in it drops the ball if you push it. I almost never process an image without applying a handful of local adjustments and after about 1/2 dozen LR can start to drag.


smoke665 said:


> Still tracking all those edits so they can be undone takes processing power. Actually since the latest update to Bridge I can edit straight from Bridge in ACR, then go to PS, bypassing Lr on the front end for the basic edits.
> 
> While it's true that Ps doesn't have quite the flexibility of a parametric editor, that doesn't mean you "have to" lose everything to start over either. Clicking in the history (depending on your settings) can take you all the way back to the beginning or anywhere in between. Practicing an orderly transition on your editing layers, groups and creating layers as smart objects, makes it fairly easy to undo things without losing everything.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

Original katomi said:


> Jeff not sure but I think that pse has a limit of 3Gb


Well, there is definitely more than 3GB worth of photos to be imported.


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

I went ahead and subscribed. Now to learn the tools and see what I can do with them. Thanks everyone for the helpful comments, greatly appreciated!


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## smoke665 (Apr 7, 2021)

jeffashman said:


> Now to learn the tools and see what I can do with them.



The nice thing about Lr and Ps, is there are thousands of videos on the internet that address about anything you want to know. Lr by and large is pretty straight forward, and if you're unsure of what to do with an image there's a little magic button at the top of the Basic panel, click it and it uses AI to adjust the image for you, or there's a virtually unlimited supply of presets or profiles that you can use. Ps can be more difficult to learn. The greatest strength of Ps is there are many, many ways to do the same thing. The biggest downside of Ps is there are so many ways to do the same thing, but picking the right way for the current image can be confusing.

If you get stuck or have questions, post them or you're welcome to PM me also, be happy to help.


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## jeffashman (Apr 7, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> jeffashman said:
> 
> 
> > Now to learn the tools and see what I can do with them.
> ...



Thank you!


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## FBPB (Apr 8, 2021)

Personally, I have abandoned Adobe in favour of Affinity Photo / Designer / Publisher. 

Granted, it does not have all of the bells and whistles of Adobe CS, and there is a slight learning curve if you are coming from Adobe. However, it is an outright licence (not a subscription) so you pay €50 for each licence only once (€150 for the suite). And currently they have a 50% off sale, which makes it a very good investment, if only to learn an alternative to Adobe.

And no, I have no affiliation with them, I just love their software!


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## AQS (Apr 9, 2021)

Another fan of Affinity here. For the price, it cannot be beaten! Plus, there are tons of tutorials on Youtube etc. I can highly recommend it.


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## Ysarex (Apr 9, 2021)

AQS said:


> Another fan of Affinity here. For the price, it cannot be beaten! Plus, there are tons of tutorials on Youtube etc. I can highly recommend it.



OK -- two mentions of AP deserve one more mention. Affinity Photo is an excellent raster editor and a terrific deal $$$. However it is a raster editor. If your goal is to process raw files Affinity isn't such a great idea.

If you can you're better off processing raw files with a parametric editor. In a raw workflow Affinity forces you to edit destructively (not in the sense of damaging your original but in the sense of losing re-edit access to your work).

Affinity supplies a very simple raw converter (Develop module) for people who need to process raw files and don't have something better (nearly anything else is better). That simple raw converter in AP has problems.

If you do adopt Affinity for post processing at least learn to use some other raw converter to get your raw files into an RGB format Affinity can work with.


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## smoke665 (Apr 9, 2021)

Well since the cheap options have been covered, how about some more expensive options that might actually compare to Adobe for the more demanding user. There's Capture One for the low price of  $449 you can buy the license ( oops there's some add ons extras) or you can subscribe monthly for $19/mo. Then there's file management, you'll have to supply that as well as online storage. 

Hmmmm think I'll continue paying $9.99/mo where less is actually more.


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## Ysarex (Apr 9, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> Well since the cheap options have been covered, how about some more expensive options that might actually compare to Adobe for the more demanding user. There's Capture One for the low price of  $449 you can buy the license ( oops there's some add ons extras) or you can subscribe monthly for $19/mo. Then there's file management, you'll have to supply that as well as online storage.
> 
> Hmmmm think I'll continue paying $9.99/mo where less is actually more.



Yep, I switched to Capture One back in 2012. Not because of the impending subscription cost of Adobe. I have full access to the entire Adobe Creative suite right now.

I switched to Capture One and gladly pay more for it because nothing does a better job of keeping me away from Photoshop. We all have different priorities and appropriately so. Really high on my priority list is a raw workflow that is 100% non-destructive and non-linearly re-editable -- that means hands off a raster editor. With C1 I can edit hundreds of photos for weeks on end without having to take a single photo into a raster editor. Would I pay $100.00 more a year for that? In the blink of an eye. LR is good as a parametric editor and would be my 2nd choice, but C1 is the most capable parametric editor.


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## smoke665 (Apr 9, 2021)

@Ysarex if memory serves me right CS6 back in 2012 was right at $700 for the single user license. Adjusting for inflation that would put it over $800 today. People like to ***** and moan at the subscription model but how many people, other than professionals or businesses could afford it. Sure you could buy it and use it for maybe 4-5 years if you were lucky before it was obsolete and needed an upgrade but the subscription model for 5 years is only $600, still cheaper than the 2012 price, and you get LR & Bridge.


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## jeffashman (Apr 9, 2021)

I just shelled out a lot of dosh for a Sigma 50-500mm lens, so no more big purchases for a while. My next big purchase will be a pre-owned EOS 5D, so no budget for high dollar software. I like the subscription model, because it brings the software into reach for me, and so far I like what I’ve seen with PS.


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## Ysarex (Apr 9, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> @Ysarex if memory serves me right CS6 back in 2012 was right at $700 for the single user license. Adjusting for inflation that would put it over $800 today. People like to ***** and moan at the subscription model but how many people, other than professionals or businesses could afford it. Sure you could buy it and use it for maybe 4-5 years if you were lucky before it was obsolete and needed an upgrade but the subscription model for 5 years is only $600, still cheaper than the 2012 price, and you get LR & Bridge.



Right, as I said the Adobe cost didn't influence my decision to switch to something more expensive. But that's really not fair to say because I get Adobe for free if I want it.  I think the point is we're both left somewhat dumbfounded at people who will spend hundreds and then thousands of dollars on cameras and lenses but don't want to pay very low and reasonable costs for essential software. Adobe is $120.00 a year. C1 costs me $150.00 a year. For Pete's sake I just bought a new used lens for $500.00 but I don't want to spend a fraction of that to be able to use it to full advantage? Good software isn't optional.


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## NancyMoranG (Apr 17, 2021)

Thanks for this thread, I need it.
At any moment I need to decide on a program. 
I really want to make some videos to music for my family /friends and was going to order PSE 20 and Premiere.
But everyone says get LR!

And I am never going to sell or do much with my photos so do I need a subscription program?

For where I am at, decisions,  decisions...


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## jeffashman (Apr 17, 2021)

FWIW, I have PSE, and it’s an ok program, essentially PS Lite, and it hides a lot of the complexity in PS. The PSE organizer tends to hang for me when trying to import my image library, due to a size limitation and a suspected memory leak. Given that, I have a PS/LR subscription, and learning those is slow, because there is a lot of stuff. I use Bridge in place of PSE organizer, it’s faster and doesn’t choke. Buuut, I broke down and got the Topaz Labs image quality bundle, so the PS sub may or may not last. Right now I’m using all of them together, and the nice thing about a sub is that if I don’t find it useful, I can canx it.


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## NancyMoranG (Apr 17, 2021)

@jeffashman    Ugh, I am so un-tech. Give me a roller coaster, upside down with hands in the air!  
Bridge, Topaz, plus PS , LR subscription...where do I begin?

I just want to make a few photos look a little better than I took them... :}

good night all.
Ok, rhetorical question.


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## jeffashman (Apr 17, 2021)

NancyMoranG said:


> @jeffashman    Ugh, I am so un-tech. Give me a roller coaster, upside down with hands in the air!
> Bridge, Topaz, plus PS , LR subscription...where do I begin?
> 
> I just want to make a few photos look a little better than I took them... :}
> ...



I know you said your question is rhetorical, but PSE is good for that. I just have this unending need to overdo things. [emoji16]


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## PaulR70 (Apr 21, 2021)

I have the $9.99 subscription to both PS and LR (it is actually $10.59 now). I love PS but very seldom use LR. I also have both of these on my iPad, no additional cost. The Photoshop on the iPad is not very useful for me but I do use LR on the iPad. I also have Photoshop Express(free) on my iPad. When I am out shooting I can download pics from camera to iPad and use PE to send pics to my desktop at home, if I am connected to a wi-fi or use my phone as a hotspot). I think the Photoshop+Lightroom package is well worth the money even though I just do photography as a hobby


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