# How many did you do?



## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

Hello, here is a little background on me: 

I am still in my first year (6 months) of really getting into portraiture photography.  I do have a website up and going and facebook but mainly just do things for free still.  I'm pretty much self taught.  I have a friend that went to photography school and she has taught me pretty much everything she knows. I love to shoot newborns and children.  Yes, I have watched several tutorials and lessons on shooting newborns and realize that most shots are composites.  I also know about newborn saftey concerns and everything.  I have not done any of these poses yet as I am not confident enough to try them.  I have done 3 newborn sessions so far (all for free) and have only attempted the "safe" poses so far.   I have done a few family shoots at a park, only one of which was paid, and not because I asked but because they insisted on paying me. 

My question is how many free sessions did you do before you took the leap and had a professional business going where you were paid for your work?  When did you file for an LLC and insurance?  

I don't have a studio or anything yet, but would like to in the future.


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## jake337 (Mar 13, 2012)

I'd wait.  Think about this.  Do you want to be busting your azz each weak trying to make enough money to survive or be well of fin your business?

The longer you wait, the more experience you'll have, the better you will get.  Thus you will be able to start charging for your work at a higher price point.

It's harder to go from a $75 per session business to hundreds/thousands per session, than it is to start off charging more because your product is worth it.

But hey, if your ready, then your ready.  You may get more input if you link or post some of your work.


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## Big Mike (Mar 13, 2012)

Don't call it working for free.  Call it portfolio building and photography practice.  These are thing you do *before* you go into business.

How many should you do?  How long?  Only you can answer that...and it will be (should be) when you are ready.  One way might be to say that when you are at the point that you can get the job done, up to your/their standards, then you're ready.  

I did a lot of shooting AT family weddings (not as the hired pro).  I always got paid (not much, but something) but it was practice and portfolio building.  When I turned it into a business, I made sure that I could get the job done.  A big part of that, (especially for wedding photography) is having back up gear, and good quality gear for the task at hand.  A big part of it is knowing what to do when things don't go as planned.  
Anyone can go out and occasionally take some nice photos....but a professional can do it, when they need to do it, even in adverse circumstances.


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## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't believe I am ready yet, just wondering what others have experienced.  I'm not really sure how to jump into it.  How to get business from people.  Do I pay for advertising or just hope someone will find me?   I have a lot to learn when it comes to the business side of it. 

Here is a link to my site that has some photos on it.  Stephanie Moore Photography

there is a pricing link, that's mainly just for "looks" right now.  I have not had anyone contact me other than doing free photos.  Though if someone thought well enough of me and wanted to pay, I wouldnt stop them


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## CCericola (Mar 13, 2012)

I didn't . I got a job at a studio THEN went out on my own. Why do people think freelancing is the first step? Freelancing or having your own business comes AFTER you have paid your dues, shooting in the trenches. When you learn the business then you can go into business. And all these questions about LLC and taxes and insurance are mute because you already know the answers or at least how the studios you worked for did business. Forget the business and go get a full or part time job as a photographer or assistant.


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## Big Mike (Mar 13, 2012)

> I have a lot to learn when it comes to the business side of it.


Way, way, way more photographer have failed companies because they were bad at the business side of things, than because they were poor photographers.  

Read some book, take some classes, work with a pro (as mentioned above), hire/consult an accountant and a lawyer.  Contact your local city/county/state office to see what advice or guidance they have for small business owners & start-ups.  Join a professional association, where you can probably get advice & guidance and tap into their resources and group discounts etc.  
Professional Photographers of America
Wedding Photojournalist Association® | WPJA® | Wedding Photojournalism Photos and Wedding Photographers Resources | Reportage and Candid



> How to get business from people. Do I pay for advertising or just hope someone will find me?


Word of mouth has been, and probably still is, the best way of advertising for photographers.  Your clients, talking you up to their friends & family is the best way to get _more_ clients.  But you have to get the clients in the first place...and know how to keep them.  That's where the business savvy comes in.

A website is key, but it's useless if nobody see is.  I'm guessing there are tons of photographer in OKC...so not only do you need to get your site where it can be seen...but you need to rise above the crop.  This is where SEO (search engine optimization) comes in.  It's a complicated subject that few really understand...especially at it changes often.  But know that you know...you can look into it further.

There are any number of different ways to advertise a business.  But they key is to find something that gives you good return on investment.  I know (of) a photographer who advertises on a bill board (in his town), about six months of the year.  He has large displays set up in the shopping malls and uses TV & Radio ads.  Of course, in his small town, those things are cheaper and reach a large portion of the population...it will be different where you live.
Networking with people who are, or are affiliated with your target market is a good idea.  You said you shoot kids & babies?  I recently read about a baby photographer who donated large photos to the maternity ward of her local hospital, and then makes sure that her contact info is easily available when someone asks.  
Any store that sell baby products will have new moms coming and going...there is your target market, figure out how you can reach them.


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## orljustin (Mar 13, 2012)

It must be the warm spring weather driving all these new business people out into the sun with their Christmas cameras...


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## Joey_Ricard (Mar 13, 2012)

orljustin said:


> It must be the warm spring weather driving all these new business people out into the sun with their Christmas cameras...



lol


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 13, 2012)

orljustin said:


> It must be the warm spring weather driving all these new business people out into the sun with their Christmas cameras...





not really, they pop up every day.


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## MReid (Mar 13, 2012)

I never intended to go into business....people started coming to me.
When you KNOW your stuff is good then it is time to feel confident about charging for your work.


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## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

I am really disgusted by some of the comments here.  I came here for help and trying to learn and some of you guys are just plain rude.  I thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other not put each other down.   I have read several threads from others looking for help and I read the same rudeness as I see here.  

For one, this is not my "christmas camera" I have had it for several years and know how to use it thank you very much.  And I have done my share working with another photographer shooting weddings of all things.  I have just recently started to do individual portraits for families.  Maybe I should have stated that in the first place but I'm sure there would still be some bullies out there.   Like I said I'm not ready to jump into it yet.  I need more practice I know that.  I was just wondering how long it took others to make that jump.  Just curious really.   

Thanks to those who did say something helpful.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:


> I also know about newborn saftey concerns and everything. I have not done any of these poses yet as I am not confident enough to try them. I have done 3 newborn sessions so far (all for free) and have only attempted the "safe" poses so far. I have done a few family shoots at a park, only one of which was paid, and not because I asked but because they insisted on paying me.
> 
> My question is how many free sessions did you do before you took the leap and had a professional business going where you were paid for your work? When did you file for an LLC *and insurance*?



So let me get this straight.  You are essentially running a business, albiet unpaid.  With newborns.  And you are uninsured?  And what exactly is the opposite of a 'safe' baby pose?

What exactly is your fallback position if an infant gets harmed taking a picture?  Think the parents will take a moment to consider that you are doing it for 'free'?  No, they will sue you first.  

This is like test driving a Ferrari, and telling the dealership to 'relax' afterall...it's just a testdrive.  Who needs insurance for that?


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## CMfromIL (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:


> I am really disgusted by some of the comments here. I came here for help and trying to learn and some of you guys are just plain rude. I thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other not put each other down. I have read several threads from others looking for help and I read the same rudeness as I see here.



It's not rude.  It's unfortunatly the reality of the situation.  Your post indicates you don't really have a handle on the business side of photography, but you are in-fact 'running' a business. (Unpaid).

And you are exposing yourself to financial risk (uninsured) then asking for advice.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's rude.  It's just unvarnished.  I hope things work out for you.


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## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

CMfromIL said:


> stephaniemoore said:
> 
> 
> > I also know about newborn saftey concerns and everything. I have not done any of these poses yet as I am not confident enough to try them. I have done 3 newborn sessions so far (all for free) and have only attempted the "safe" poses so far. I have done a few family shoots at a park, only one of which was paid, and not because I asked but because they insisted on paying me.
> ...




So what do you suggest??   Should I spend the hundreds of dollars applying for an LLC and insurance, just to practice for free??  What do others do when they start out?  Other than going under another photographer what other options are there?  Working with a main stream studio is not an option. 

That's why I'm here asking questions not to get kicked in the face by rude people.


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## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

CMfromIL said:


> stephaniemoore said:
> 
> 
> > I am really disgusted by some of the comments here. I came here for help and trying to learn and some of you guys are just plain rude. I thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other not put each other down. I have read several threads from others looking for help and I read the same rudeness as I see here.
> ...




How do you "practice" or build a portfolio then? I wouldn't feel right charging for things.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 13, 2012)

its not really a question that can help you really. some people can pick something up and are just magic with a camera and there are some that can take pictures for years and never improve. the only thing that matters is wether you are ready or not.


some people will have a rude comment or an attitude because most don't like it when someone comes on and says ive been using my camera for 6 months and im ready to open shop and go pro. its kind of a slap in the face to those that have worked for years perfecting there craft to have people crawl out of the woodwork and go hey i just got a camera and im good enough to be in business.


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## stephaniemoore (Mar 13, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> some people will have a rude comment or an attitude because most don't like it when someone comes on and says ive been using my camera for 6 months and im ready to open shop and go pro. its kind of a slap in the face to those that have worked for years perfecting there craft to have people crawl out of the woodwork and go hey i just got a camera and im good enough to be in business.



I never said I was ready to open up shop and go pro.  I think I even said "I don't think I'm ready yet"  I understand what you are saying though.  I even said I have a lot to learn about the business side of things... that's why I'm here.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:


> So what do you suggest??   Should I spend the hundreds of dollars applying for an LLC and insurance, just to practice for free??



Question! What happens if you are out on a "free" shoot... and someone gets hurt? Or if someone decides to sue for whatever reason (and yes.. it does happen!). If you don't have insurance... and hopefully an LLC.... you are TOAST! 

And I AM trying to be helpful....

The courts are not always "fair"! Even if you don't present yourself as a "professional",  if a person can make a reasonable claim that they assumed you were, they can sue you and win! (really.. it does happen!)


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 13, 2012)

if your start charging money for photos most would consider you a pro. and you were asking how long before people start charging.  if you learn to read what people are saying and not take things personally, you can learn allot here. just know people here won't hold back, they will tell you like it is. some nicer then others. most responces are based off of how the question is asked, if you say ive been shooting for 6 months and want to know when people can charge (or something similar to that effect) your going to get the type of answers you got.


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## raider (Mar 13, 2012)

yes you spend lots of money to start a business - its risky but thats how businesses are done.  its not a lemonade stand.  you jump into a pool of professionals who have done it the right way, of course you're going to be greeted this way.

and there are prices on your gallery page.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't see flash in any of your shots.. another "Natural Light" photographer, right? 

Stephanie Moore Photography | Children 

I think you need to "do" a lot more before you start charging, even at the supremely low prices you have listed on your website. I won't critique your shots.. you didn't ask for that, but you really should!


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## Tony S (Mar 13, 2012)

From the looks of your website you are already in business. If I were you I would immediately go here and start reading up on what my responsibilities would be. Oklahoma Tax Commission

  To answer some of your questions, I never did any free sessions.  I did have my family to practice on, asked friends and friends of my kids to sit so I could practice.  I did make sure before I did outside the family stuff that I had insurance.

  I knew from what I was creating when I was ready to start charging and take it on as a money making effort. Before I even charged my first customer I filed for business status as a sole proprietor and got seperate insurance to cover everything  (converting to an LLC shortly).  I provide a "Certificate of Insurance" for every site regularly I go to, even though many don't require it.  Why? Because when little Johnny slips and hits his mouth on the big colorful plastic slide  guess who everyone will be looking at to pay for those two front teeth?   COVERED !!
  It does not take much for one person to slip/trip/stumble or fall while you are taking portraits, then you need to be protected. Even the best of friends will sue you, because their insurance is looking for a way not to pay. How long can your business survive if you knock your camera off the counter and it's costs too much to repair? Insurance can provide for it.

  Starting up a business is serious stuff and takes some money and courage at the beginning to get going.  There's much more to it than being able to take what friends tell you are great pictures.  It's the stranger that's willing to part with cash that will make or break you.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:


> How do you "practice" or build a portfolio then? I wouldn't feel right charging for things.



Practice for free all you want.  I am dead serious about getting insurance, regardless of what you are or are not charging.  If something happens on a shoot YOU will be the one responsible, both financially and legally. "But I'm not charging' is not a legal defense.

If you were driving on the road and got slammed into by another car, and had medical bills and the car was ruined...would you give the other driver a pass if you found out it was a 'student driver' and had zero insurance?  Of course not.  Same thing with your business model.


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## IByte (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:
			
		

> I am really disgusted by some of the comments here.  I came here for help and trying to learn and some of you guys are just plain rude.  I thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other not put each other down.   I have read several threads from others looking for help and I read the same rudeness as I see here.
> 
> For one, this is not my "christmas camera" I have had it for several years and know how to use it thank you very much.  And I have done my share working with another photographer shooting weddings of all things.  I have just recently started to do individual portraits for families.  Maybe I should have stated that in the first place but I'm sure there would still be some bullies out there.   Like I said I'm not ready to jump into it yet.  I need more practice I know that.  I was just wondering how long it took others to make that jump.  Just curious really.
> 
> Thanks to those who did say something helpful.



Be ready for this in the business world, in any case good in your venture.  In regarding the payment if they insist on paying for your pictures, start up a business account and the monies in there to build your business as well as your portfolio.  Another idea would be to donate the proceeds to charity, great exposure and possible future clients and for a good cause.


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## Overread (Mar 13, 2012)

CMfromIL said:


> If you were driving on the road and got slammed into by another car, and had medical bills and the car was ruined...would you give the other driver a pass if you found out it was a 'student driver' and had zero insurance?  Of course not.  Same thing with your business model.



But taking that analogy further, would you ever run a car driving lesson company whilst still wearing the L plates on your car?

In my view if you want to run a business its got to be a business, you don't start that by practising and giving it all away free first because the work you put into building a user base is going to be the sort of person after a free shoot. Furthermore any passing on about you or your services will be carrying that info along as well.
Cut you teeth and get your experience without the company side. You don't need a business to arrange free shoots or practice things like lighting (heck get some large dolls - set them up on chairs and you've got an infinity patient subject to practice lighting setups with). Do lessons - consider inturnships/apprenticing etc..

Then once you've got that focus on launching the company .


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## orljustin (Mar 13, 2012)

stephaniemoore said:


> I am really disgusted by some of the comments here.  I came here for help and trying to learn and some of you guys are just plain rude.  I thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other not put each other down.   I have read several threads from others looking for help and I read the same rudeness as I see here.
> 
> For one, this is not my "christmas camera" I have had it for several years and know how to use it thank you very much.  And I have done my share working with another photographer shooting weddings of all things.  I have just recently started to do individual portraits for families.  Maybe I should have stated that in the first place but I'm sure there would still be some bullies out there.   Like I said I'm not ready to jump into it yet.  I need more practice I know that.  I was just wondering how long it took others to make that jump.  Just curious really.
> 
> Thanks to those who did say something helpful.



Wah.  "Weddings of all things"?  Lol.  Come on.  Why can't you just go around taking pics of your friends' kids without being all "I'm a photography business!"?


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## orljustin (Mar 13, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> I don't see flash in any of your shots.. another "Natural Light" photographer, right?
> 
> Stephanie Moore Photography | Children
> 
> I think you need to "do" a lot more before you start charging, even at the supremely low prices you have listed on your website. I won't critique your shots.. you didn't ask for that, but you really should!



Seriously?  That looks like "point the camera in the direction someone may be in and pray for a good exposure"...


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## CCericola (Mar 14, 2012)

Everything about your website says you are in business. You need to be registered and get insurance ASAP. Especially before you do your Bunnies and Babies campaign. Live animals + Children + no insurance = TROUBLE. The Rabbit Ranch's insurance does not cover you. Opening a photography business is like any other business venture. If you don't have the money, you get a bank loan or ask family for a loan. There are no short cuts. Shame on you for not looking out for yourself, your family and your clients.


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## mommy-medic (Mar 21, 2012)

I commented on your other thread a while back regarding the naked baby girl wrapped in the sheer black fabric. To see it on your website is really REALLY nauseating and unprofessional! Do her parents know you have her genitals up for the world to see? :sick: maybe learn how to drive a crop? Or show some discretion?


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## raider (Mar 21, 2012)

if you have hosting, you should have a real email, not gmail.  it would look better.  my opinion.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 21, 2012)

mommy-medic said:


> I commented on your other thread a while back regarding the naked baby girl wrapped in the sheer black fabric. To see it on your website is really REALLY nauseating and unprofessional! Do her parents know you have her genitals up for the world to see? :sick: maybe learn how to drive a crop? Or show some discretion?



She has that shot as her primary photo on her facebook business page! It is terrible!  https://www.facebook.com/stephmoorephotography


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## mommy-medic (Mar 21, 2012)

It won't open for me, but maybe she has at least stopped using that pic, or used the burn tool to add some black strategically, or something. Pretty sad that she didn't bother to heed the suggestion a couple months ago. That's fine, let her leave it up- I know as a prospective client that would certainly tell me who NOT to go to!


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## ms.photo (Mar 21, 2012)

CCericola said:


> Everything about your website says you are in business. You need to be registered and get insurance ASAP. Especially before you do your Bunnies and Babies campaign. Live animals + Children + no insurance = TROUBLE. The Rabbit Ranch's insurance does not cover you. Opening a photography business is like any other business venture. If you don't have the money, you get a bank loan or ask family for a loan. There are no short cuts. Shame on you for not looking out for yourself, your family and your clients.



Bunnies can be mean! I did this Bunny thing years ago and they bit several children. That was my last year with live Bunnies.


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## tirediron (Mar 21, 2012)

Wow... this has disaster written all over it.


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## tirediron (Mar 21, 2012)

ms.photo said:


> Bunnies can be mean! I did this Bunny thing years ago and they bit several children. That was my last year with live Bunnies.


 Like any other prey animal, their first response is defensive; they're cute and cuddly, but they are, IMO, a BAD choice to pair up with young children unused to handling small animals.


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## NedZ (Mar 21, 2012)

mommy-medic said:


> I commented on your other thread a while back regarding the naked baby girl wrapped in the sheer black fabric. To see it on your website is really REALLY nauseating and unprofessional! Do her parents know you have her genitals up for the world to see? :sick: maybe learn how to drive a crop? Or show some discretion?


I visited the web site after reading this comment and I agree. Some discretion and more practice needed. Also I agree LLC and insurance are the must.


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## Tony S (Mar 21, 2012)

Stephanie,

Time to sign up for one of these new business workshops....  Business Tax Workshops


And fill out these....  http://www.tax.ok.gov/forms/busregpk.pdf

  Before you have to visit one of these...  Oklahoma Tax Attorneys, Lawyers and Law Firms


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## cgipson1 (Mar 21, 2012)

According to her site.. she is staying plenty busy! I guess there are a lot of people that would rather have cheap photography, rather than good photography!


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## KmH (Mar 21, 2012)

Liability insurance? Abolutely. It's cheap.
LLC? Maybe.

Single member LLC's don't really offer any more protection than a sole proprietorship does. Check with your attorney.


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## WhiskeyTango (Mar 21, 2012)

KmH said:


> Liability insurance? Abolutesly. It's cheap.
> LLC? Maybe.
> 
> Single member LLC's don't really offer any more protection than a sole proprietorship does. Check with your attorney.


 
Ok.  Now this one I'm curious about...  According to my attorney, theres a huge difference between an LLC and a sole proprietorship.  Specifically, theres a huge difference in liability protection.  According to both my attorney and my accountant, there's not much difference in them for the purposes of taxation, at least for a single member LLC.

Care to elucidate?


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## KmH (Mar 22, 2012)

LLC statutes vary by state.


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## raider (Mar 22, 2012)

LLP also restricts liability to business assets, just have a silent partner sign, like a spouse


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## WhiskeyTango (Mar 22, 2012)

raider said:


> LLP also restricts liability to business assets, just have a silent partner sign, like a spouse


 
This may be one of those "varies by state," instances KmH is talking about.  The info I'm getting in Michigan is that LLP only matters if the partner (silent or otherwise) is not your spouse.  The courts here will treat an LLP as a single member LLC if the partners are spouses.


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## raider (Mar 29, 2012)

must be, i've filed both (separate times of course) - spouse and a legitimate business partner


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