# What to charge a client wanting to use your images for their websites.



## esky (Aug 29, 2013)

My employer (not a photographer) had me take images with my professional camera gear (5DmkIII, 24-70 f2.8, etc) of shop products last year. I made it very clear to her that my usual hourly rate was not payment for these photos, and if she wants to use them anywhere, she must clear it with me first.

I posted the images on the shop's social media pages, and the response was fantastic - she realised the value of having high quality images of her products.

I refused to take anymore images for her unpaid, and she has not paid for any of the images since.

She is now launching a new website for her business, and informed me yesterday she was going to use my images from last year.

I have decided to give her the option to either pay for the rights to use my images on her website, or not to pay, but each image will be watermarked with my name & logo.

My question is this, how much should I be charging per image? There are approximately 40-50 images.


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## sashbar (Aug 29, 2013)

I think before claiming the rights for these photos you need to look at your current contract with this employer. There is a good chance that if you did it during your working hours at her premises and have been paid for that day - she is the owner of the images, regardless of what you have told her then or what equipment you have used. Anyway, I think the most important for you would be to keep amicable terms with your employer.  
Then the question is - can she re-use the images that she already owns ( or lets say - has on her old website ) ? If yes, then all you can do, I am afraid - is to politely ask her to attribute the images to the author - not nessessary watermark every image.  If she can not do this - then you are the king. Just tell her that TO YOUR DEEPEST REGRET you do not have the originals any more, unfortunately. And offer her to do it again - probably even better ones. But do not do it without a proper contract this time.
Then call a couple of studios in your area, as if you are looking for a photographer and ask them how much would they charge for this job. You may show them the examples - you own old photos. Then be generous and give your employer a 30 % discount!


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## esky (Aug 29, 2013)

That's all fantastic advice, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

This situation does become tricky then. My boss and I have a horrible relationship at present, which cannot be repaired.

The images were taken at the shop, during my working hours. (Again I made it clear that my job description did not include using professional photography gear to take professional photos for her for free.) The verbal agreement was that my images were only to be used on social media sites, at my approval. Any further use would mean she needs to pay for them. All editing and uploading was done in my own time, at my own house. The editing time, took a lot longer than the shooting time.

She asked me to continue this arrangement, and I refused, saying she's had more than enough images to see what my quality is like, and if she wants more images, she must pay me to as a photographer.

The response her business has had from the images has been enormously positive. My images just on social media have attracted clients to the business paying thousands of dollars for the products I photographed.

If she were to post my images on her brand new website, I am 100% certain that my images again, would attract more high paying cliental for her, so I believe I should be paid for the use of my photos.

Does any of the above help clarify which party retains the rights of the images?


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## sashbar (Aug 29, 2013)

Then all I can is she is a *****. 
If you want to claim your rights you need a legal advice.


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## esky (Aug 29, 2013)

sashbar said:


> Then all I can is she is a *****.
> If you want to claim your rights you need a legal advice.


well that's something I can definitely assure you is 100% true.


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## SCraig (Aug 29, 2013)

Similar issues used to come up regularly pertaining to software.  People were paid by their employers to develop software, and then used parts of what they wrote for projects of their own.  In the USA the courts upheld that the people writing the software had been paid for their efforts since the work had been performed during their normal work time.  Thus they, as individuals, had no claim to the software and it was the property of the company who paid them.  The only rights they had as individuals was the intellectual knowledge gained from writing the software.

Whether this would be viewed in a similar manner, whether the laws in Australia are similar to USA laws, I do not know.  As sashbar mentioned I'd recommend finding out where you stand legally before you make too many waves.  When you do something for your company during your work hours the situation becomes tricky.


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## Steve5D (Aug 29, 2013)

esky said:


> She asked me to continue this arrangement, and I refused, saying she's had more than enough images to see what my quality is like, and if she wants more images, she must pay me to as a photographer.



What was her response?


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## Newtricks (Aug 29, 2013)

In the States, all intellectual work is considered to be copy-written from the time of it's creation by the author of the work, with one exception... works made for hire. In the case where work is done in the course of ones employment (on the clock) whether or not it is part of the individuals regular duties, the employer is considered the author of the work.


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## tirediron (Aug 29, 2013)

Price per image depends on several factors; the main ones being:  duration of use, exclusivity, size, and probably viewership.  In other words, an 800x600, one-time use, non-exclusive (the client gets the image, but you can do what you like with it too), web-only image on a site with a few hundred hits a day might be worth $50-75, whereas an image which will be used in a number of sizes, on-line, and in print over the course of a year where it will reach tens of thousands of viewers is worth many times more.  Without knowing a LOT more about the business, type of use, etc, it's pretty much impossible to estimate the worth of your work.

As far as your current situation - what does your employer's contract with you state with respect to your job description and extra duties?  Photograph may well be outside the scope of those duties.  What does your contract with her state about the use of the imagery you provided?  If you don't have one for the photographic work, I am inclined to think that this is simply an expensive lession for you.  I don't know Australian IP law, so I can't comment, but when in doubt, seek the advice of a qualified solicitor!


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## Braineack (Aug 29, 2013)

esky said:


> My question is this, how much should I be charging per image? There are approximately 40-50 images.



nothing. you created them for an employer; you don't own the rights.


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## tirediron (Aug 29, 2013)

Braineack said:


> esky said:
> 
> 
> > My question is this, how much should I be charging per image? There are approximately 40-50 images.
> ...


Unless you are privy to all of the circumstances surrounding the project, and are an expert on Austrailian IP law, with the letters, "LL.B" after your name, you really aren't qualified to make such a statement.


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## KmH (Aug 29, 2013)

The OP should check out what AU copyright law says, and better yet should consult a qualified AU attorney.



Newtricks said:


> In the case where work is done in the course of ones employment (on the clock) whether or not it is part of the individuals regular duties, the employer is considered the author of the work.


It's not at all that simple here in the USA.



> http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf. . . Section 101 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the U.S. Code) defines a &#8220;work made for hire&#8221; in two parts:
> a. a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment. . .



If the scope of his or her employment does not normaly include making images, work for hire does not apply.

An additional requirement to fit the work for hire statutes is:



> . . . if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. . .
> . . . But note that the term &#8220;employee&#8221; in the definition differs from the common understanding of the term. For copyright purposes, &#8220;employee&#8221; means an employee under the general common law of agency. See the subheading &#8220;Agency Law&#8221; . . .



How much you should charge depends on a number of factors:
&#8226; The size the images will be used at.
&#8226; How long the use will be for.

At up to 400 x 400 px web site usage goes for about $40 USD per image for 3 months use.
As image size goes up so does the cost. So at over 400 px and up to 600 px it's $60 per image for 3 months of use.

Frankly, image credit is essentially worthless when images are used by a client for a business web site.


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## Braineack (Aug 29, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Unless you are privy to all of the circumstances surrounding the project, and are an expert on Austrailian IP law, with the letters, "LL.B" after your name, you really aren't qualified to make such a statement.



but what if I am, what if i am...


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## rexbobcat (Aug 29, 2013)

When I signed up to be the marketing photographer for my college, they had a written statement expressing that they "own" all my photos that I take on their time.

I imagine the contract would have to say whom the owner of the photos is.

But I'm not a lawyer so idk. Just throwing my experience out there.


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## tirediron (Aug 29, 2013)

Braineack said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you are privy to all of the circumstances surrounding the project, and are an expert on Austrailian IP law, with the letters, "LL.B" after your name, you really aren't qualified to make such a statement.
> ...


While it's possible, the odds are against it.


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## KmH (Aug 29, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> When I signed up to be the marketing photographer for my college, they had a written statement expressing that they "own" all my photos that I take on their time.
> 
> I imagine the contract would have to say whom the owner of the photos is.
> 
> But I'm not a lawyer so idk. Just throwing my experience out there.


In your case, your job description is 'marketing photographer', which pretty clearly defines the scope of the job as being photography.

The fact it is a signed document that spells out that that they own the image copyrights also satisfies - 





> _. . . if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. . ._


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## esky (Sep 1, 2013)

Here's an update for you all, which I again must thank for everyones input.
I resigned from my job last Friday, so not much longer there for me. I asked about the photos, and she nastily told me I have no rights for them, because I did them during work hours.

So then I asked 'Where's your proof I did them during work hours...? The time and date inside my camera has been wrong ever since I've had it.'

And there was silence. 

For those wondering, at the time I took those photos for her, I was an apprentice Florist. Taking photos for was definitely not part of my job description.

She's agreed to upload copies of my images to her website with a watermark on them, but she also has access to some of the images without the watermark.

This is going to have to be one of those learning experiences I believe.


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## KmH (Sep 1, 2013)

The AU's copyright laws are not likely to be the same as USA copyright laws when it comes to making images as an employee.

Here is AU copyright law:
COPYRIGHT ACT 1968


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