# Too much competition



## dnavarrojr (Jul 21, 2011)

If a flood of new 'photographers' in a market severely depresses prices,  do you lower your price to match the market?  Do you hold out and do  less work? Do you change what you do? Should you consider quitting altogether?

A friend of  mine in a very small town in Oklahoma made a decent living as a  photographer.  Over the past year, she's seen the number of  photographers advertising for business in her small town go from 3 to  over 40.  Most of which (of course) are crap.  Most of her clients who  have switched don't seem to care about quality so much as price.  Her  average monthly income has dropped 60% in the past year... even with her expanding her "circle" 50 miles out to include several other small towns.  She's extremely depressed.

She specializes in portraits and this past year has done her first weddings (she avoided weddings prior to things changing).  She has lowered her prices some, but she's unwilling to simply give her service away like her competitors.

I do photography "on the side", choosing instead to specialize in video which is a MUCH less competitive market in my area.  Many of my fellow photographers in the area complain of the same problem (lots of people with new DSLRs fancying themselves as pro photographers and taking away business).  

So my advice to her is to research niches like video, real estate, etc... I'm curious as to how many here are under the same kind of "attack" and what you're doing about it.


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## Tomasko (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm not a professional photographer yet, but this is a common issue with many jobs today. Take making websites for example. Today even 12yo children can create some basic HTML+php page. Should I feel threatened by them because they can do it for free? Do I should feel depressed? Not really.
It's all about approach to clients. Her clients need to see the difference between her work and cheap one. If she's good at it, people will see it.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 21, 2011)

Well.. to sell a premium product, you have to to have the quality that the cheaper products do not have.  I say either her past clients cant tell "quality" product and only go for best price OR her work is not that good to justify her higher price.


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## Scoody (Jul 21, 2011)

I sell myself.  I make my clients truly believe that they absolutely have to hire me or they will regret it for the rest of thier lives.  I also try to take the very best photos I possibly can so that when my clients see the proofs they can't bear to pass on any of them.


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## Big Mike (Jul 21, 2011)

This is a common issue just about everywhere.  Photography is one of those things that anybody can do...and just having gear that looks professional (to the untrained eye) may be enough to convince people to hire you.  

But from what I have seen, the upper end of the market (where pro photographers should aspire to be) isn't nearly as affected by the influx of new 'photographers'.  If you can offer a service/product that is clearly better, then you should be able to price yourself accordingly.  It's then up to you to market yourself as such and let the clients who do value quality, come to you.  

That is probably harder to do in a smaller market, but it's certainly not impossible.  

I know a photographer who operates in Atlantic Canada (New Brunswick I think) where the unemployment can reach 50% at times.  On top of that, he gets much of his work shooting high school seniors....which is not something that is typically done in Canada, like it is in the US.  So how does he do it...he markets very well and he targets his demographic very well.  And of course, he is a top notch photographer.


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## Railphotog (Jul 21, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> I know a photographer who operates in Atlantic Canada (New Brunswick I think) where the unemployment can reach 50% at times.



Sounds like a typical Western Canada uninformed statement.  Unemployment is no where 50%, maybe 9-10%, unless you're talking about photographers.


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## KmH (Jul 21, 2011)

Scoody said:


> I sell myself.  I make my clients truly believe that they absolutely have to hire me or they will regret it for the rest of thier lives....


This is a major key to having a successful retail photography business.

Sell the photographer, and market to people willing to pay for quality over price.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 21, 2011)

I've gone back to basics, keeping my good clients and going after every other minor league football and hockey association in my home town, now the weekend amateurs that have been shooting crap for these groups will have to start competing with me, I can offer a better product, using better gear and working more professionally. For these organizations I have dropped my prices just below the amateurs and offer them a Getty style volume of images.  I have already taken away a football association that has over 50 teams involved.

Where I used to get frustrated with these weekend amateurs, not I just decided to beat them.


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## Big Mike (Jul 21, 2011)

Railphotog said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > I know a photographer who operates in Atlantic Canada (New Brunswick I think) where the unemployment can reach 50% at times.
> ...


That's what he said...but he was referring to his small town specifically (North Sydney, NS).  He may even have meant that during the off-season, it gets that low...or maybe it hit that mark once and fluctuates close to it at times.  
I'm well aware that not all of Atlantic Canada has unemployment that high.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 21, 2011)

That sounds a little extreme?  You lose all of your free time to spend with your family?



imagemaker46 said:


> I've gone back to basics, keeping my good clients and going after every other minor league football and hockey association in my home town, now the weekend amateurs that have been shooting crap for these groups will have to start competing with me, I can offer a better product, using better gear and working more professionally. For these organizations I have dropped my prices just below the amateurs and offer them a Getty style volume of images. I have already taken away a football association that has over 50 teams involved.
> 
> Where I used to get frustrated with these weekend amateurs, not I just decided to beat them.


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## skieur (Jul 21, 2011)

Where a pro should be ahead of most amateurs is lenses, composition, and post processing skills. Professionalism and communication skills should also be top notch.

skieur


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## dnavarrojr (Jul 21, 2011)

It's funny, but I often read that "if you have a quality product, your clients will know the difference and stick with you".  But, in fact, I know tons of people who are picking "adequate" products and services strictly based on price. With shrinking budgets, you hear the term "good enough" more often than when things were better economically.  Saving every dollar that you can is important for many in this economy.  I've personally been a name brand person for as long as I can remember, but when I do my shopping, I'm buying generics.  I only pay for quality when it's absolutely necessary.

And yes, where I live, the "high-end" photographers are all busy and booked.  But there's like 6 of them and with a population of 150,000.  She's got a population of less than 30,000 in her whole county.

That said, I agree with the sentiment here that she needs to take another look at her marketing.  I'm going to visit her in September to teach her about video and I'll go over her marketing materials and strategy with her (not that I'm a marketing genius, but I might see something she missed).


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 22, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> That sounds a little extreme? You lose all of your free time to spend with your family?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really, extreme is not having any money coming in for the family. My kids are all adults, and i've always spent more time with my family than alot of fathers do, I have taken them on the road with me when I've been shooting as well.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 22, 2011)

Then to me you are worse than a typical CL photog then.  You give people quality and super cheap price.   I don't get it.


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## ababysean (Jul 22, 2011)

I honestly do not know how anyone can do photography and make a living unless you do weddings.  There are crap shoot and burn photographers everywhere, they do not bother me, but there are also amazing wonderful photo artist out there shooting for pennies too because they have no confidence, that is what is killing the market.

If I had to do this as a way to support my family I think I'd choose something else. sorry to be blunt about it.  Luckily I am just a mom with a camera and any profit I make goes to extra equipment, upgrades, or sometimes a nice relaxing spa package.....

With anything, there is going to be a time when you just have to either stand out or bow out.  Think about computers.  20 years ago, people who made and fixed computers were rolling in the dough, now my 10 YO son just built his own computer by watching youtube videos, collecting old computer crap other people threw away from parts on craigslist....

such is life.

If you want to make it, you have to step up your game and offer something someone else cant!


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## ababysean (Jul 22, 2011)

You know what I saw?  At my childrens sports photography days, the moms with Point and shoots and cell phones right behind the photographer taking pictures!!!  HOW RUDE!  Even us MWC know better then that, so it isnt the MWC or amateur that are hurting YOUR business, YOUR business is evolving and you are not keeping up, that is what is hurting YOUR business...   Let's face it.  No one hangs the soccer team pic up anymore.  You have to evolve.  I could care less if I get a nice picture of my 8 YO soccer team he played on for 8 weeks all I want is a snap to put on FB like every other mom out there.

Something has to give.


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## jimmyander (Jul 22, 2011)

This is an excellent thread. Discussion is very important and i am enjoying my stay here. Well done guys. keep the good work continue.


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## IgsEMT (Jul 22, 2011)

"The reason why my competitors charge SO LOW is because they know the true value of their product." - Aaron Akselrud


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## Big Mike (Jul 22, 2011)

> I honestly do not know how anyone can do photography and make a living unless you do weddings.


There are plenty of portrait photographers that don't need to shoot weddings.  They can average over a thousand dollars of sales per shoot.

Then there are all the commercial, fashion photographers.  Take a look in your mailbox...if it's anything like mine, there are 25 fliers (junk mail), each one of them with hundreds of photos on them.  Somebody is getting paid to shoot all of that.  Go to the supermarket and look at the magazine rack or the news stand.  There are thousands upon thousands of photos there...and there will be new ones tomorrow or next month.  Somebody is getting paid to shoot those too.


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 22, 2011)

I've said it before and taken a lot of flak for it, but I will say it again.  The average professional photographer is a dying breed.  Just as the average portrait painter before him, or the average sculpter before that.  Those jobs are niche markets now.  You have the carnival guys that charge 5 bucks and you have the elite who can command 10's of thousands...there just isn't much in between.

Almost every profession is like that today.  Even professions that actually require an education are suffering.  If I want a will done, I'm not going to go to an attorney to draft one up...I'll swing over to a site like legal zooom, fill out the form, and get something that will work just fine for me.  Is it as good as what a lawyer may have provided?  Maybe not, but it's good enough.

Bitter Jewler said something a while back, "Competition is fierce at the bottom of the barrel", and he is right.  He is a jewler, he can't compete with Walmart rings and necklaces.  He doesn't even bother trying.  He charges enough to make sure that the clients that walk in his door understand that there is a difference.

Same thing for photography.  Too many photographers charge some low, gimmic rate trying to get people in the door and hoping to upsell them.  The problem is, the people who walk through the door expect the services at a dirt cheap rate, and the people who would pay for quality, won't go near it because the price doesn't reflect a quality service.


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## Derrel (Jul 22, 2011)

Riffing off of kerbouchard's comments above--maybe your friend needs to dramatically increase her prices, and aim for the smaller, up-market crowd that exists within the 30,000 people in her county. Do you suppose maybe there's 200 to 300 clients that could support a business at an elevated price level?


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## ciscokiddm (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with some people in this thread... however, I just wanted to add a few points:

1) Why do many of you seem to assume that just because somebody charges less, that the product is horrible? The client may not expect earth-shattering quality, just a nice photo is fine... also, people that know a lot about composition will probably have a pretty nice camera and may take the photos themselves! Or they may ask a photographer buddy...

2) Sort of related to point #1, most people want a good or decent product for a low price. Not many people want to pay top dollar for top products... this applies to so many different markets... do most consumers buy top of the line computers? top of the line cars? etc... No, most buy something that fits their needs for the lowest price possible.  Do all of you have websites that were made by the top professionals in web design? I highly doubt it.

3) Quit complaining! This is how the photography business is, and is true for many others.  It's hard and most people don't make a living out of it.  Some people want to make a few extra bucks by taking decent photos for others.  They don't expect to make top dollar because their work isn't top quality work.  However, their clients may very likely be satisfied with their work due to the low cost.  If you want to compete for these clients, then you either have to lower your prices or somehow convince them that it's worth it to pay more for your work.

That's all


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## Big Mike (Jul 22, 2011)

ciscokiddm said:


> I agree with some people in this thread... however, I just wanted to add a few points:
> 
> 1) Why do many of you seem to assume that just because somebody charges less, that the product is horrible? The client may not expect earth-shattering quality, just a nice photo is fine... also, people that know a lot about composition will probably have a pretty nice camera and may take the photos themselves! Or they may ask a photographer buddy...
> 
> ...


OK...but, even though most people are looking for a decent product at a low or decent price...there are those who are willing to pay more for a high quality product.

There does need to be photographers in both segments of the market...but if you choose to cater to the larger market segment, you need to realize that price will be one of your main tools in drawing in clients.  And to remain successful with those lower prices, you'd need to increase your volume of clients/sales.  That's all well and good...that strategy has worked very well for Wal-Mart etc.  

But on the other end of the spectrum is the high end market.  There are much fewer clients here, but they are willing to pay top dollar for a top quality product.  The key is marketing directly to this market and working hard on landing these clients...but if you do, it means more money, without having to resorting to increased volume.  

A good example is Ford vs BMW.  Ford sells millions of vehicles and makes a lot of money.  BMW sell much fewer vehicles (in this part of the world anyway) but at a higher average price.  They may not make as much money, overall, as Ford...but they don't have to work as hard (lower overhead costs etc.)

And since we are talking about photography, which is usually in the category of small business...doing less work is a very important part of the equation.  So if you can land 3 wedding clients at $6000 each, it's a much better scenario that landing 9 weddings at $2000 each.


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## ababysean (Jul 22, 2011)

&#x202a;Office Depot Barbershop Commercial&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube


thought this was fitting....


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## KmH (Jul 22, 2011)

Not all photographers do retail photography, and it seems few retail photographers bother to learn how to manage/market/promote a retail photography business so it can turn a profit.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jul 22, 2011)

Much of the public now considers facebook cellphone shots as "acceptable" images.


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## ciscokiddm (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with you Mike... I was never trying to say that almost nobody wants top product for top dollar.  I'm guilty of this quite a bit.  Just that there are many (probably more) that want a good bargain, meaning decent/good photos for a lower price. But, you must realize that most non-photographers aren't going to notice slight differences or worry too much about composition like the way photographers do... just as long as it looks nice in their eyes.

And yes, some people do want to charge more and do less on-assignment work.  But, I'm talking about all the people here that are complaining of the low charging photographers.  There's a place for them too.  So what I'm saying is... quit complaining!


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 22, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Then to me you are worse than a typical CL photog then. You give people quality and super cheap price. I don't get it.



I have high performance sports organizations as clients that are paying me very well to shoot for them, but as a freelancer there are always gaps in work.  I charge what the market will hold in my home town, it's all downloads, no prints and simple, I make money while I'm out of town working on other assignments.  How does trying to make money make me worse than some guy with a full time job outside of photography playing photographer on the weekends and selling his crap cheap because he can afford to.  At least I've been working as a photographer for decades, I run my business and all the money comes from photography. These days, I'll do whatever I have to put food on the table.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes..  And you bring the market down. You SAID you are pricing your self lower than the amateurs in your area who do crap work. You may sound like you know how to run photography business, but that doesn't make any sense at all.


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## johnh2005 (Jul 22, 2011)

If you guys think Photography is bad...  Take a look at Land Surveying.  It used to take a 5 man team two months or more to do a large ranch in the 10,000+ acre range.  They used equipment that cost an equivalent in today's dollars about $4,000.  They would charge $50,000 in today's dollars.  Now, I can go out with a two man or three man crew and do it in a couple of days.  The GPS I use is about $35,000.  I use wireless internet and other high tech gadgets to get the job done faster, more accurately and the client gets the drawings from a computer that look way better and are way more accurate than the old hand drawn stuff.  We charge about $10,000.  What kind of sense does that make?  Even worse, we bid $10,000 and the next surveyor bids $9,000 then $8,000.  We wind up turning down a lot of work and just work with clients we have had for years and know the quality of our work.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 22, 2011)

I suppose I could say I'm working the same way that Getty does business, apart from the fact that I don't like how Getty works, they sell quantity at a lower than market price and in the process put alot of other sports agencies out of business.  Inspite of the fact that these other agencies had some of the worlds best sports photographers they started to lose their clients to Getty, it all came down to economics.  Five years ago I would never have thought of approaching business this way.  If I can make $1000 a weekend shooting minor league sports, where otherwise I may not be working at all, how does this not make business sense?  I did do homework before all this, I tested the market to see what people were willing to pay for a download, I set the price at a point where I make money.  There are no other professionals out there affected by this local sports market, the city is small enough that we all know who's shooting what.  

Photography is different in every city, every field is able to handle a certain fee, I shoot amateur sports, more than I shoot professional sports, my city has one professional franchaise. I have for been for over 20 years and understand what each sport I work with will pay, I base rates on that.  Unless you understand the photo market in a certain city it's easy to say "you're bringing the market down"  If I worked in any one of the largest Canadian cites the rates are higher, that is the way it has been since my Dad started working as a photographer in the late 50's.  When photographers from Montreal and Toronto come looking to Ottawa for work they are surprised when they find that they can't charge the same, opposite for me going to Toronto my rates are 50% higher.


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## blackfin (Jul 23, 2011)

i have found that "sticking to you guns" works best. People buy a Porsche because they want a Porsche.......meaning dont lower your prices or raise based on others, stick to who you are and promote that, im kinda a higher-priced photographer and higher-end clients book me, i dont compete with $500 photographers because im not that: you get what you pay for, thanks

My Blog Wedding Photography Rates | wedding-photo-tips.com


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 23, 2011)

There is however a huge difference between shooting weddings and shooting sports, it is more readly accepted that wedding photographers can charge more because it is expected, however shooting sports, as difficult and challenging as it is, generally does not get the same respect as wedding or portrait photographers.  I am not saying that shooting sports is more difficult than shooting weddings, they are different.  I would guess that there are more weekend professional amateurs trying to shoot sports as it is less restrictive than shooting a wedding, and what I mean by that is:  Anyone can show up and stand on the sidelines of a minor league football, baseball, soccer, shoot and offer to sell the photos, guests show up at weddings and usually don't try and sell their photos.

The different fields of photography offer different dynamics, there is no one correct way of setting prices.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 23, 2011)

blackfin said:


> i have found that "sticking to you guns" works best. People buy a Porsche because they want a Porsche.......meaning dont lower your prices or raise based on others, stick to who you are and promote that, im kinda a higher-priced photographer and higher-end clients book me, i dont compete with $500 photographers because im not that: you get what you pay for, thanks
> 
> My Blog Wedding Photography Rates | wedding-photo-tips.com



Do you have a website you can show us, instead of your ad spammy blog?


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 23, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> blackfin said:
> 
> 
> > i have found that "sticking to you guns" works best. People buy a Porsche because they want a Porsche.......meaning dont lower your prices or raise based on others, stick to who you are and promote that, im kinda a higher-priced photographer and higher-end clients book me, i dont compete with $500 photographers because im not that: you get what you pay for, thanks
> ...



I have to agree, what's with the blog?  it is just a bunch of ads.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 23, 2011)

www.blackfinphotos.com  I assume this is the same guy.  You are selling your wedding photos online, an 8x10 for a $1.99?  If this is your web site and you just laid out a wonderful story about "sticking to you guns" works best? Four years as a photographer and you've got the balls to toss out a I'm a higher priced guy so I don't deal with $500 weddings.


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## quiddity (Jul 23, 2011)

educate the market ... awhile back one of the big beer companies hired a new marketing guru. he toured where the beer was being made and was told all this stuff and he asked why they never promote how their process was different. they said everyone should or is doing the same thing. his response... but noone is telling/showing your potential new cuatomers.  think like axe deoderant ... they uncommoditizd deodorant.


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## blackfin (Jul 24, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> www.blackfinphotos.com  I assume this is the same guy.  You are selling your wedding photos online, an 8x10 for a $1.99?  If this is your web site and you just laid out a wonderful story about "sticking to you guns" works best? Four years as a photographer and you've got the balls to toss out a I'm a higher priced guy so I don't deal with $500 weddings.



i have not updated my pricing for my pictures on my site, they are set at default right now, my average wedding goes for about $2,500 .... look at my pricing not a $1.99 8x10....and yes i dont do $500 weddings not worth the time


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## dnavarrojr (Jul 26, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Riffing off of kerbouchard's comments above--maybe your friend needs to dramatically increase her prices, and aim for the smaller, up-market crowd that exists within the 30,000 people in her county. Do you suppose maybe there's 200 to 300 clients that could support a business at an elevated price level?



I don't know, but she definitely needs to find out.  I'm one of those "research research research" people.  So I know as much as I can about the demographics where I live.  I get out to business functions (charity events, meet & greets, chamber meetings, street fairs, etc..) and network.  I am active in numerous groups in my community.  I find that if I'm in front of everyone all the time and I have my camera with me all the time that people will remember me and contact me.  Which is mostly true (I'm still a relative newbie, so I'm usually the 4th or 5th person on a call list, not yet up at number 1 or 2).


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## table1349 (Jul 26, 2011)

General observation over the years.  Mercedes always charges more than Yugo for their vehicles.  They both have engines, transmissions and wheels and both are modes of transportation.  Yugo sells more vehicles than Mercedes but I have yet to see anyone drool over a Yugo driving down the street.  If you are Mercedes quality, the business should be there that you need and want.  If you have Yugo quality then you will have all the business you can handle.  Maybe not the business you want, but lots of business.  If your work is in the middle, say Chevy Impala quality, then you may have to look at some incentive packages in tougher times to sell your product.  You just need to figure out where you sit and go from there.


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## thompssc (Jul 27, 2011)

Well you've got to understand that the people that are price shopping for a photographer aren't really your target market. Too many people freak out about Craigslist photogs stealing their business. And you've got to understand that you're not selling a photograph- a piece of inked paper or a digital file. You're selling a memory (weddings, senior photos), an better job (corporate headshots), higher profits (commercial/product photography), those kinds of things. Once you realize that, then you'll realize your target market is different than that of Craigslist photographers. Craigslist photographers are selling photos, and their clients aren't buying memories or higher profits or a better job. To them, it's just a photo and they want the cheapest one they can get. So you need to focus your efforts on the people who are buying the aforementioned things- they are the ones who will pay a competitive rate for your services. 

The key to tapping into that market is effective product differentiation. You have to _sell_ memories/higher profits/etc. You need to get your potential customers to realize that they are getting more than a photo when they come to you. This will allow you to price your services much higher. But if people can't just see you as selling photos for $50, and Joe as selling them for $10...(arbitrary numbers, of course). 

It's a combination of going after the right people- the people who truly are looking for these things, and then convincing them that you are indeed selling them more than just a photo.


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## vtf (Jul 27, 2011)

There are 2 factors to every business, income and expenses. I have yet to see anyone in these thread mention cutting back expenses when income becomes light.
When Kmart emerged from bankrutcy it had already determined competing headon with Walmart was a mistake, it trimmed the fat, the excess and focused on a different market with emphasize on brand names. It makes considerably less income today than in 2000 but the profits are more even with the lower income. When I was making my full time income I found it hard to cut back on expenses, couldn't figure out how I could live without each item. Now that I make 50% less than I did, those choices are much easier to make. It's all about the true sacrifices people are willing to make.


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## elifant (Jul 27, 2011)

thompssc said:


> Well you've got to understand that the people that are price shopping for a photographer aren't really your target market. Too many people freak out about Craigslist photogs stealing their business. And you've got to understand that you're not selling a photograph- a piece of inked paper or a digital file. You're selling a memory (weddings, senior photos), an better job (corporate headshots), higher profits (commercial/product photography), those kinds of things. Once you realize that, then you'll realize your target market is different than that of Craigslist photographers. Craigslist photographers are selling photos, and their clients aren't buying memories or higher profits or a better job. To them, it's just a photo and they want the cheapest one they can get. So you need to focus your efforts on the people who are buying the aforementioned things- they are the ones who will pay a competitive rate for your services.
> 
> The key to tapping into that market is effective product differentiation. You have to _sell_ memories/higher profits/etc. You need to get your potential customers to realize that they are getting more than a photo when they come to you. This will allow you to price your services much higher. But if people can't just see you as selling photos for $50, and Joe as selling them for $10...(arbitrary numbers, of course).
> 
> It's a combination of going after the right people- the people who truly are looking for these things, and then convincing them that you are indeed selling them more than just a photo.



I disagree with you. I can give you my perspective. I am the parent of an 8 month old. When my daughter was 3 months old we wanted her pictures done. The local "studio" didn't have any options under $600 for photos. I wanted the memories, I didn't just want pictures, but I wasn't about to spend a ton of money (to me $600 is for 3 month pictures) for a package of pictures I may or may not use. I was able to find a photographer that charged me $200 for 2 hours of shooting, 50 edited images, and a release to print where and when I wanted. That was a great value to me as someone on a budget. I think I am you typical middle class two income family mom. I am driven by price. I want quality, but I am willing to go with a less prestigious photographer in order to be able to afford it. I was lucky, I found a very talented photographer that was just starting, I'm sure her prices are probably higher now.


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## Scoody (Jul 27, 2011)

Your competition depends on how competitive you are and how you market yourself.  Here in Texas football Two a Day workouts are starting next week.  I dug around to find out who the coaches are for the local high school teams.  I learned that the coaches eat lunch a couple of times a week at a local barbeque place.  I made it a point to there yesterday.  I basically ambushed them.  I picked up the team and individual shoots from every coach there.  Not only that but one of their wives was also in attendance.  She is the volleyball coach for one of the schools and wants me to do the team and individual shoots when her season starts. 

I have gotten gigs from restaurants by walking in and convincing the owner that a poster sized photo of him and his staff has to go up on the wall.  I have gotten corporate headshots by telling the women how striking they look.  I am selling myself virtually every minute of the day and it has yielded great results for me.


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## JMBriggs (Jul 27, 2011)

I am one of those annoying weekend amateurs and I know I am one of probably millions... in my county alone I know there is at least 200. But I think that if you sell a superior quality product and you have our very own very original style that the competition won't be that bad. When people look at pictures done by you they should say "Wow that is kinda different, but I love it!" That and don't just be strictly business like, be friendly with your clients. You could send them a coupon for a free mini portrait session for their birthday (don't give the prints away for free though... you don't want to dig yourself into a hole just to be nice...) but really show them you love what you do and the people you do it for. Those kind of clients will refer you over and over again to their friends and family.


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## thompssc (Jul 27, 2011)

elifant said:


> thompssc said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with you. I can give you my perspective. I am the parent of an 8 month old. When my daughter was 3 months old we wanted her pictures done. The local "studio" didn't have any options under $600 for photos. I wanted the memories, I didn't just want pictures, but I wasn't about to spend a ton of money (to me $600 is for 3 month pictures) for a package of pictures I may or may not use. I was able to find a photographer that charged me $200 for 2 hours of shooting, 50 edited images, and a release to print where and when I wanted. That was a great value to me as someone on a budget. I think I am you typical middle class two income family mom. I am driven by price. I want quality, but I am willing to go with a less prestigious photographer in order to be able to afford it. I was lucky, I found a very talented photographer that was just starting, I'm sure her prices are probably higher now.
> ...


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 27, 2011)

If the market in your area says that a photo is worth $50 then that is what it is worth in that area, if you take the same photo out of the area and sell it for $100 that is what it is worth in that area, if you can't sell it for more than $20  in area three, then you have a choice, you don't make any money on a sale because you know believe that your photo is worth $100 and anything less is an insult.  It is all about where you are, what you are shooting and what someone will pay for the photo.  I'm not talked about assignments as that is completely different, I no longer use a set day rate, I price out jobs as a complete package.  Similar to what wedding photographers do, I base it my rates on clients requirements, time and post process work, no two jobs are exactly the same.  If someone is willing to pay me $1500 for a shoot I will take it, if someone only has a budget of $250 I will work will that client, I would rather have $250 than zero.  They get the same quality of images.  I look at every client as a repeat client.


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## DDGphotos (Jul 27, 2011)

AS a professional photographer let me just throw in My 2 Cents and see if anyone agrees with me . . .. 

Fact#1. Over the years Professional photographers use their profits to expand,
             buy better LENSES, More Advance Cameras, printers and Equipment       TRUE or FALSE
             HER pictures Should be AMAZING compared to the NEW guys! ! 

Fact #2  YOU get what you pay for! !  YOU should Invest in your BEST WORK
             either in a DYNAMITE DISPLAY,  PRINTS in FRAMES, or Using NEW
             styles of PAPER( like Metallic paper) to "WOW" your
             clients  & Update as you see Needed! ! !                                           TRUE or FALSE

Fact#3  Instead of Changer her PRICE, changer her clients! ! 
             have your friend try shooting for landscape ads, or 
            Furniture brochures, Children Magazines.  Even Dentists
             need art for their waiting rooms.  And don't forget 
            about CHARITY events - that always lead me to
            a few NEW CLIENTS ! ! ! !

I get emails from NYC to AUSTRALIA, I personally READ every one at night with a hot cup of coffee next to computer. 

 What we do is a LOVE . . 

A PASSION  . . .

AN ADDICTION we CANNOT CONTROL 

   . . My advice is . . . Don't let other people make your FUTURE.  The reason  joined this forum to reach out and get help, advice, educate and teach others . .

USE IT TO YOUR FULL ADVANTAGE


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## thompssc (Jul 27, 2011)

DDGphotos said:


> USE IT TO YOUR FULL ADVANTAGE



The Caps Lock button...?


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## elifant (Jul 28, 2011)

thompssc said:


> elifant said:
> 
> 
> > thompssc said:
> ...


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## Authorized (Jul 28, 2011)

After reading this entire thread, there's only a couple of things I'd like to contribute.     

-  *Get. Better.*  -  Just get better. At what?  Everything.  People will pay for good photography.  They will.  If you work is good enough, and you're good at business,  they will pay. And yes, I'm talking about Retail. 

About pricing - Raise your prices.  Sounds insane huh?  It works.  Why do non-graphic designers/photographers buy APPLE products?... because they cost more.  That's what it boils down to.  "If it's more expensive, it has to be good."

Personal story:
2010 weddings booked - 5
2011 weddings booked - 16 (I raised my prices 20%)

 If you're one of the people saying, "There is just too much competition, I can't get work", I would put money on 90% of the time that's because your work or your business skills just didn't cut it.  The more time people complain, the more time they could be out shooting personal projects using new, better technique. You could be researching SEO to get noticed more. You could be planning your marketing strategy for this quarter.

The moral of the story is:  Be better.  Nut up or shut up. 
(Sorry this comes across as harsh, but it's the truth. Somebody has to tell you.)


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## Scoody (Jul 28, 2011)

elifant said:


> I agree. Unfortunately I think in this economy photography is a luxury, and price is a big factor, at least in most places. There are certainly places where people are still paying top dollar for the must have photographer. My view is also skewed because I live in the stix.



You do not live in the stix out any further than I do.  I live in a small one horse (literally, this is Texas) town of 2000 people.  I get most of my work in the two "cities" that are closest.  One 70 miles away with a population of 100K and one 90 miles away with a population of 50K.  I have managed to gain some momentum by not undercutting other photographer.  I show clients my work and tell them my rates.  If they want my standard, they have to pay my price.  They usually do.


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## frisii (Jul 28, 2011)

Niche..i think you got it there. If your pricing is based on a realistic business-model, you can't sensibly lower it beyond a token amount.




dnavarrojr said:


> If a flood of new 'photographers' in a market severely depresses prices,  do you lower your price to match the market?  Do you hold out and do  less work? Do you change what you do? Should you consider quitting altogether?
> 
> A friend of  mine in a very small town in Oklahoma made a decent living as a  photographer.  Over the past year, she's seen the number of  photographers advertising for business in her small town go from 3 to  over 40.  Most of which (of course) are crap.  Most of her clients who  have switched don't seem to care about quality so much as price.  Her  average monthly income has dropped 60% in the past year... even with her expanding her "circle" 50 miles out to include several other small towns.  She's extremely depressed.
> 
> ...


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## dnavarrojr (Jul 28, 2011)

I went to a seminar on "Running your Photography Business" which had some pretty good ideas.  I bought an extra workbook while I was there and I mailed it to her along with some notes I took.  I realize now that I am not upselling my clients enough and I'm betting neither is she.  So she can make up a bit of income by upselling her existing clients.


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## bennielou (Aug 1, 2011)

And this is exactly why I chose to go with a nitch market, and sometimes get P.O.ed when photographers tell me that I'm not "doing things the right way" or "by the photography rules" or "overdo my photos".
Yes, I don't, don't, and do.  On purpose.

I made a decision many years back to not be in the big pool of "everyone".  I wanted to be as different as I could be, but still be quality.  Our photography is not for the mainstream, but it has it's followers.  The retouching is extreme, but that is exactly what I'm going for.  It's our brand.

I live in Dallas, and have seen the influx of the el cheepo with a camera.  Some of these people were pretty darn good.  They dived right in to the "big pool of everyone" and undersold them.  Clients saw good photos for cheaper, and went with the cheaper deal.  Can't blame them.

But for that same reason, I don't WANT to be the same.  I'm not loved by photographers.  (Well some, but mostly not).  I wanted to walk my own unique path, and while most photographers and potential clients aren't in love with it is ok to me.  BECAUSE I have my own set of client who would never even consider working with anyone else.

For a select few, I have what they want.  And they pay to get what they want.  And they know that there are very few people in town willing to do what they are going for.  So I get the job, at the price I ask for.

Meanwhile, I have seen many of my friends go out of business.  Good mainstream photographers.  Great light, great posing, great everything.  They were just in the big pool of "just like everyone else".

So anyhoo, that works for me, YMMV.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Competition is a good thing


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## bennielou (Aug 1, 2011)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Competition is a good thing



Competition is going head to head with someone else. If you come in with a price of $100 for something that everyone else is charging $500 for, that is not competition. That is giving it away. But normally, these types stay in business for less than a year.

 Being competitive would be holding your ground on pricing and quality. Selling the deal at the market value of the product.

 Winning is facing a photographer of equal or more quality and booking the deal, with same pricing, quality, and all the rest.

 Just my two pennies.


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## pgriz (Aug 1, 2011)

Competition works well for the buyer.  Monopoly works well for the seller.  Having a niche is having a quasi-monopoly.  And marketing trumps quality almost every time.  That's why most successful consumer-oriented products are heavily backed by marketing.  If you don't have the bucks to put on an aggressive and persistent marketing campaign long-term, you need to find a niche, as bennielou said.  Once you found a suitable niche, you still need to market the heck out of it to make sure you're the quasi-monopoly that will allow you to recoup your marketing investment.


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## bennielou (Aug 1, 2011)

Exactly.    Another cool thing about a nitch market is that you get noticed by online blogs and soforth, which is free advertising.  I pay absolutely zero dinero for ads.  Nada.  Nothing.  I pimp the net for free.  I didn't used to.  I used to pay for all kinds of crap.  Now it's all free free free.  Yippee!


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## thompssc (Aug 1, 2011)

Nitch? "Niche"


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## photogir2002 (Aug 2, 2011)

Stuck up much? Stuck up much.


thompssc said:


> Nitch? "Niche"


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## GAP Photo (Aug 2, 2011)

This thread certainly hit close to home.  I serve a very rural market where on the surface, I am one of only a few photographers with decent skills, but as I look around "Google Places" there are 31 photographers listed, serving a large, geographical (read a lot of small towns) community of about 40,000 and many of them are excellent.  It is daunting to compete in that environment, but I have had 25 years of adaptability and change.  I do good work, communicate with my clients, work as a stringer, keep blogs that earn money, market inside and out of my local area and maintain a high level of professionalism on every project.  I continue to be able to add hardware and skills to the product.  Will I have to leave photography because it doesn't pay the bills, possibly...probably...but I won't leave it completely because maybe some of the skills that I have gained along the way will pay my bills in other ways.  Life-long learners don't have to be afraid of change.


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## table1349 (Dec 15, 2013)

Mark333 said:


> mod edit - don't quote spam



I think that in all likely hood no body cares at this point since you revived a *TWO YEAR OLD THREAD!*  Just my thoughts.


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## slackercruster (Dec 15, 2013)

Yes lots of comp. If you do it for love, you don't care so much. If you do it for $, then good luck! I have no magic answer.


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