# water, why is it so hard!!



## clarie (Jan 20, 2013)

I just can't get it the way I want. What do you think?



DSC_0239 by ky_honey_pie2002, on Flickr


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## 480sparky (Jan 20, 2013)

How do you want it?

Crisper?  Silkier?  Brighter?


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## clarie (Jan 20, 2013)

silky, i know its halfway there, but just not enought to me... am I wrong that it needed more?


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## 480sparky (Jan 20, 2013)

Like this?







If so, you need a neutral density filter.  You shot yours at f/22, and the shutter speed was still 1/15 sec... not nearly long enough to make water silky.  I used a variable ND and got the shutter down to 10 seconds.


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## clarie (Jan 20, 2013)

bummer, I don't have any filters yet  really nice photo . I can just hope to get half this good one of these days


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## 480sparky (Jan 20, 2013)

Try shooting early in the morning (before sunrise) or well after sunset.

PS: One of the forums' best-kept secrets is here.


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## clarie (Jan 21, 2013)

thats awesome, how do you get a mentor?


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## Richichi (Jan 21, 2013)

Your levels seem off & your position could be better. I think you need to look & try different angles, after awhile you will know where to be - do you own a nd filter ?


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## clarie (Jan 21, 2013)

No, I don't have any filters yet, just got the camera couple months ago so haven't bought alot yet for it.


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## CanonJim (Jan 21, 2013)

Just so you'll know, "Neutral Density" filters  come in 3, well, 4, varieties. They all act to *decrease* the amount of light coming through the lens in a given time frame, thus allowing either a LONGER shutter speed, to obtain the classic silky water effect, or to *balance* a scene with a wide variation in brightness.  *Graduated *ND filters have one half that starts out darkest at the edge, and gradually lightens towards the middle, where it turns clear.  There are two types - *soft * and *hard. * A hard grad has a very clear and sharp delineation between the dark and light. A soft grad has a gradual change. Most situations call for a soft grad, so that's what most people use.  

A soft grad is often used when shooting a sunset, where the dark area is used against the sun/sky/clouds top part of the image. This allows your camera to get a proper, or at least, better exposure of the foreground area, which is usually darker relative to the bright(er) sun/sky/clouds top half. Use of a grad will very often slow the shutter speed as well, so a sturdy base or tripod is often called for. You adjust the camera angle until the gradation on the filter is appropriate for your scene.

A non-graduated neutral density filter, usually just called an "ND" filter, is completely dark, and they come in various strengths. There are two ways they are described, and they both have to do with the amount of light being deflected, and how many 'stops' of aperture they make up for. You may see an ND filter described as an *ND2* or *ND4* or whatnot, or a '*3-stop"* filter, or even a *'.9 ND' *filter. Either way, the higher the number, the darker the filter. 

An ND filter is used to produce the "silky water" effect, by allowing you to use a shutter speed of 1/2 to 2 seconds or more, without over-exposing the scene.  Unless you prefer to clamber around on slippery rocks in the dark, there is no other way to get this kind of shot during daylight hours. (except of course, having an aperture of f/50 or so..)

There are two form factors with these filters - round filters which screw onto the threads at the front of your lens, and square filters that fit in a holder which itself screws into the front threads. Round filters must be sized for the front of your lens - 58mm, 67mm, 72mm, 77mm, whatever. The front element diameter is often printed on the front rim of the lens, and it looks like one of the above standard numbers and a large zero with a slash through it.  You can also buy inexpensive "step" rings which allow ONE filter to fit on multiple sized lenses. For example, if you have a 72mm lens, a 67mm lens, and a 58mm lens, rather than have to buy THREE filters, you buy one 77mm filter (always buy the LARGEST size), and a step up ring that goes 67mm-->72mm, and a ring that goes 58mm-->72mm. Then you just use the ring and the filter, as appropriate.

The other type of form factor uses a square piece of glass or acrylic that fits down into a holder. LEE and COKIN are well known makers of this type of filter. The advantage to this type of filter, especially with a graduated filter is that you can adjust where the transformation from light to dark happens in your scene. Obviously, with a round screw in filter, you get half and half only, and must adjust the camera angle, which may affect composition. With the drop-in filters you can have just the top 20% of the scene covered with grey, for example.

Another advantage of these types is that you can 'stack' filters a little more easily.  To get a really dark effect, for example, you can buy two ND2 filters and an ND4 filter, and get an ND2, ND4, ND6 or ND8-level of darkening.

Most of the square or drop-in type of filter holders allow up to three filters.  They also, obviously, must be sized for your lens diameter, but you can buy adapters just like step rings for them. I have the Cokin system for example, with rings for 58, 67, 72, and 77mm lenses. 

There is a fourth type of ND filter, called a "variable" or "Vari-ND", which is kind of tricky but can sometimes be just the ticket. It's actually two *polarized *filters attached to each other, and by rotating them, you adjust the level of darkness from very little, to almost completely black. This is a completely round effect, obviously.  

Plain ND filters are relatively inexpensive, especially the drop-in type. Since their idea is to BLOCK light, as long as they do it evenly, they're fine.  Grads are also not something that you NEED to spend a hundred bucks on, in my experience.

But if you really want to go nuts, Singh-Ray makes a variable ND/warming filter that will set you back a cool $400. Many fancy landscape photographers swear by them. 

Here's an example of what a $7 vari ND can do, if you get the right angle. This was a very bright, sunny April morning, and I shot straight up into the sun. I was looking to get a 'transparent' effect through the part of the tulip. The second shot is a little OOF because I was laying on my back poking the lens up at the flower, and a bug crawled down the back of my shirt just as I snapped the shutter..


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## clarie (Jan 22, 2013)

very over my head, lol. but I can tell there is great info there so this is going in my notebook file for future ref.  my camera is nikon d3100, I have the kit lens 18/55mm  and the 55/200mm lens. 
I think the variable filter will be what I want, Thanks
I've looked at amazon, can't figuer out  what i'm looking for for the lens I have


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## 480sparky (Jan 22, 2013)

clarie said:


> very over my head, lol. but I can tell there is great info there so this is going in my notebook file for future ref.  my camera is nikon d3100, I have the kit lens 18/55mm  and the 55/200mm lens.
> I think the variable filter will be what I want, Thanks
> I've looked at amazon, can't figuer out  what i'm looking for for the lens I have



VNDs are like any other filters.... there's good ones and there's not-so-good ones.  And the good ones cost more money.

DON'T be tempted to buy a cheapie off ebay for $8.  They never come near to the specs they claim, and can even end up making your images worse.  Save your money and buy a good one... you won't be sorry.


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## CouncilmanDoug (Jan 22, 2013)

and when you do buy one buy it kind of big, all of my other lenses are 52mm filters, likebut I bought a 67mm 8 stop nd because I have one 67mm lens


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## CanonJim (Jan 22, 2013)

480sparky said:


> clarie said:
> 
> 
> > very over my head, lol. but I can tell there is great info there so this is going in my notebook file for future ref.  my camera is nikon d3100, I have the kit lens 18/55mm  and the 55/200mm lens.
> ...



Very true - I should have mentioned that the wider your physical lens, the less chance you have of getting a good VND for less than a king's ransom. The tulip shots were taken with a 58mm front element 18-135mm EF-S lens, whereas a filter from the same mfg for my 77mm 10-22mm wide angle lens is crappy.


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## clarie (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm so confused, I'm calling it a night  Thanks


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## patacao (Jan 23, 2013)

You can also buy a polarizer (no specific for this effect), but it will give you a 2 stop increase to the shutter speed. If you shot this at f22 1/5 with a polarizer you would get a 2 seconds exposure. Plus the polarizer would cut those reflexes you have on the middle/left area of the photo.


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## cwcaesar (Jan 23, 2013)

CanonJim said:


> Just so you'll know, "Neutral Density" filters come in 3, well, 4, varieties. They all act to *decrease* the amount of light coming through the lens in a given time frame, thus allowing either a LONGER shutter speed, to obtain the classic silky water effect, or to *balance* a scene with a wide variation in brightness. *Graduated *ND filters have one half that starts out darkest at the edge, and gradually lightens towards the middle, where it turns clear. There are two types - *soft *and *hard. *A hard grad has a very clear and sharp delineation between the dark and light. A soft grad has a gradual change. Most situations call for a soft grad, so that's what most people use.
> 
> A soft grad is often used when shooting a sunset, where the dark area is used against the sun/sky/clouds top part of the image. This allows your camera to get a proper, or at least, better exposure of the foreground area, which is usually darker relative to the bright(er) sun/sky/clouds top half. Use of a grad will very often slow the shutter speed as well, so a sturdy base or tripod is often called for. You adjust the camera angle until the gradation on the filter is appropriate for your scene.



I am sort of confused by this.  I thought that you would want the Hard Grad for sunrise, sunset, etc., something involving a horizon.  And the Soft Grad was only used for a gradual change across the whole image.  

If I am mistaken, in what situation should you use a Hard Grad?


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## clarie (Jan 23, 2013)

ok, so very confused, if my lens is 55/200mm will i need the filter that say 55mm? or why don't we make it simple and just someone post what I need lol... in the 50 dollar range give or take lol. 
And what else do you use filters for?
I think its the 52mm? and if so is this what I need, http://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-Varia...r_1_42?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1358990694&sr=1-42


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## oldhippy (Jan 23, 2013)

clarie said:


> ok, so very confused, if my lens is 55/200mm will i need the filter that say 55mm? or why don't we make it simple and just someone post what I need lol... in the 50 dollar range give or take lol.
> And what else do you use filters for?
> I think its the 52mm? and if so is this what I need, Amazon.com: Vivitar Series 1 Variable Range Neutral Density Filter 52mm: Camera & Photo



you will get a lot of suggestions.this is the type filter I choose.  Amazon.com: Hoya 52mm Circular Polarizing Glass Filter - B52CRPLGB: Electronics 

something to consider..if you buy the 67mm filter and a step down ring for a few bucks, that filter will fit both the 52mm and a 67mm which is a common lens.ie  70/300mm.  just a thought.maybe somone could elaborate on this idea better.  Ed

p.s. I should add that way the filter will service more than 1 lens..


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## clarie (Jan 23, 2013)

the lenses i have is the kit lens 18-55mm and the 55-200mm.


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## oldhippy (Jan 23, 2013)

O.K.  I will try not to confuae..if you buy a 52mm filter it will fit both lenses..it will cost about 30.00.   if you but a 67mm filter, and a step down lens adaptor. it will cost a few extra dollars. but it will cover the next lens you will probably purchase. a lot of people buy up. and use down.  just a thought..filters are expensive..try to get the most use out of it..so think of your next lens, and buy accordingly, or not..later Ed


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## JTPhotography (Jan 23, 2013)

Try a circular polarizer to cut the glare off the water.


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## CanonJim (Jan 23, 2013)

clarie said:


> ok, so very confused, if my lens is 55/200mm will i need the filter that say 55mm? or why don't we make it simple and just someone post what I need lol... in the 50 dollar range give or take lol.
> And what else do you use filters for?
> I think its the 52mm? and if so is this what I need, Amazon.com: Vivitar Series 1 Variable Range Neutral Density Filter 52mm: Camera & Photo



I apologize, didn't mean to confuse you. The 55-200 on your lens is the zoom range. It is NOT the front element diameter, which is the number you need for filters.   If you look at the 'Tech Specs' page on the Nikon site for your lens, you'll see the front element is 52mm in diameter. This is the filter size you need for this particular lens. Other lenses will vary, as noted above.


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## CanonJim (Jan 23, 2013)

cwcaesar said:


> CanonJim said:
> 
> 
> > Just so you'll know, "Neutral Density" filters come in 3, well, 4, varieties. They all act to *decrease* the amount of light coming through the lens in a given time frame, thus allowing either a LONGER shutter speed, to obtain the classic silky water effect, or to *balance* a scene with a wide variation in brightness. *Graduated *ND filters have one half that starts out darkest at the edge, and gradually lightens towards the middle, where it turns clear. There are two types - *soft *and *hard. *A hard grad has a very clear and sharp delineation between the dark and light. A soft grad has a gradual change. Most situations call for a soft grad, so that's what most people use.
> ...



I suppose a hard grad would be useful when shooting a sunset/sunrise with the ocean at the horizon, where you have a very sharp demarcation between light and dark.  I use only soft grads, so can't really speak for where else it might be used. I've just always thought a softie gave you more flexibility with an uneven horizon.


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## patacao (Jan 24, 2013)

clarie, you have several options as stated, i`ll try to simplify:

1. FULL ND filters - their objective is what you want, to reduce the amout of light entering the sensor and to decrease the shutter speed (obtain the sense of movement, silky water, etc)
2. GRAD ND Filters - they come in 2 versions, hard and soft, for this effect i wouldn`t use them.
3. Circular Polarizer - Primary objective, to add contrast and to remove reflexes. As a benefit is decreases the shutter speed in 2 stops, allowing you to obtain a silky water.

Hope this helps.


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## dmunsie (Jan 24, 2013)

I've been researching this as well, I haven't been able to test it yet, but I've read where a low iso of 50 and a shutter speed of 5-15 seconds will do the job without using a filter. Thoughts? Thanks.


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## clarie (Jan 24, 2013)

ok, thats a little better, I think I have it now lol... and I bet your saying finally!! it was confusing me on the sizes... lens/diameter. Thanks all


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## patacao (Jan 24, 2013)

dmunsie said:


> I've been researching this as well, I haven't been able to test it yet, but I've read where a low iso of 50 and a shutter speed of 5-15 seconds will do the job without using a filter. Thoughts? Thanks.



dmusie the problem you have here is whats bring us to these questions, on a normal situation (during day) you can`t obtain that shutter speed because of the light available. Thus it`s necessary to aplly one the options stated.


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## 480sparky (Jan 24, 2013)

dmunsie said:


> I've been researching this as well, I haven't been able to test it yet, but I've read where a low iso of 50 and a shutter speed of 5-15 seconds will do the job without using a filter. Thoughts? Thanks.



Yes, you can lower your ISO.  But most DSLRs have 100 or 200 as their lowest ISO available. My D600 can go to 50, but that's only one stop less than the sensors' lowest native ISO of 100.  This means there might be an IQ penalty for going lower than 100.

In addition, you might be tempted to stop your lens all the way down, but this is a double-edged sword as well.  You might obtain the shutter speed you want, but most lenses don't perform at their optimum sharpness at f/22 or f/32.... diffraction starts to degrade the image.


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## clarie (Jan 25, 2013)

is this one good?
Amazon.com: Hoya 52mm Neutral Density ND-400 X, 9 Stop Multi-Coated Glass Filter: Camera & Photo


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## CanonJim (Jan 27, 2013)

clarie said:


> is this one good?
> Amazon.com: Hoya 52mm Neutral Density ND-400 X, 9 Stop Multi-Coated Glass Filter: Camera & Photo



Hoya is one of the better-regarded filter manufacturers. So I'd say YES to your question.


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