# To proof or not to proof?



## Alison (Oct 20, 2004)

So, I shoot digital and have on-line ordering. We started out having our packages include proofs for the couple to keep, 4X5 size. But, this is significant costs to us to have printed (250-300 images per wedding). I was thinking of re-doing our packages and having proofs as an add on. What do you think? Does anyone here do no proofs and just digital web proofing?


----------



## voodoocat (Oct 20, 2004)

When I start putting together my packages, when I build my website, I plan on offering proofs as an extra.  I will make a cd that they can play in their dvd player, computer or whatever... all with the # displayed on the proof.  I'll probably even include a pdf order form for them to make an order.

Some people think you should put a big watermark on your image to protect it from being printed but that is bogus.  I do the images at 600x400 which would print horribly.  Especially with a low compression.  I'm not worried about them making an average quality 2x3" :roll:


----------



## Anonymous (Oct 20, 2004)

I think the cd software plays the images like a movie so there would be no chance to print them out.  I will test it out this weekend.  Maybe we can try a few an experiments and see what people like.  You can add songs as a soundtrack.  Just will need to get a program and download the mp3.  

I think it will all depned on the people.  I dont know how many ar as computer savy as people on this board.  They just might want to hold a solid picture in thier hands.


----------



## terri (Oct 20, 2004)

New forum!   New forum!    

We took a lot of shots, too (all film), back in the day, but we sure didn't let them all end up in the proof book.   Out of 80-100 shots, I'd say the standard proof book we gave them held between 40-50, depending on the success of the shoot.   We culled a lot of plonk.   But they always loved getting a proof book, sometimes wanted duplicates for the in-laws.   We retained the negatives, they ordered their 8x10's or whatever they wanted that was in their package, and that was usually the end of it.    

Putting the proof book together was the best part of the job for us.     We enjoyed reviewing our work.  I did 35mm high speed B&W for candids, we used the Rollei on the tripod during "the event" - I would man the Rollei from the side or up in the balcony if there was one, while he set up in the middle aisle for the happy trip back down - and with 3 cameras going, we always had tons of shots to choose from.     

CD's are a great option, of course, but for those who want to have prints handed to them, I think proof books are a perceived "value-added" service, as well as a professional touch.   And they serve just as well for ordering.


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 21, 2004)

My boss doesnt do proofs.  His team goes through the pictures and decides whats the best of each set and how the album should fit together and they go ahead and get the wedding album ready.  The customer usually has it in thier hands within a month after the wedding this way.  If theres extra pictures that the clients didnt order that my boss took and thought it would look good in the album, he'll go ahead and put it in and offer them a special deal for it, if they dont want it, out it comes.

I like the way this seems to work, you dont have to give them the book and wiat months for htem to make up thier minds what they want.  Less time witht eh client = less hours spent on the wedding = more money per hour invested.  :0).

But as someone said previously, the proof books could be money makers if people order some, but then theres the bridal albums, etc that would replace that?


----------



## danalec99 (Oct 21, 2004)

terri said:
			
		

> We retained the negatives, they ordered their 8x10's or whatever they wanted that was in their package, and that was usually the end of it.


So, you never gave them the negatives?


----------



## ksmattfish (Oct 21, 2004)

I shoot all film, so it's cheaper and easier for me to deliver proof prints.


----------



## green (Oct 21, 2004)

I give them a proof book of 300-400 prints.  all done digitally, as 4x6s  it works out to around $100 for everything,  which is basically my only cost (other than minor travel costs...  which realistically you would have with any job, and camera depreciation)  and i still come home with more in one day than i make all week at work.  (sad...  but true... especially since i'm among the cheapest photographers in the city...  by more than half)

I think people really appreciate "getting" something.  it makes them feel like the money that they paid was worthwhile.  plus, a proofbook is a WHOLE lot easier to bring to grandmas to show the relatives.  (unless of course grandma has a computer or a dvd player)

I also don't bother with watermarks...  i sell the "negatives" too and since just about EVERYONE buy them i don't see the need to "brand" my stuff.  Its a lot less work for me down the road, since i don't have to go get a 5x7 printed every time a new family member wants one (case in point, i got married 3 years ago and my parents have yet to make any copies for themselves).  this way, its one and a half days worth of work for all the cash.


----------



## terri (Oct 21, 2004)

danalec99 said:
			
		

> terri said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never.   We still have them all, stored and labeled.   They purchased their package, got their proofbook and enlargements, plus any extra enlargements they wanted, and generally that was the end of the job.


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 21, 2004)

Ive heard if youd ont sell the negatives, and do your marketing right, youll make more in reprints than you would selling the negatives.  And if you charge a fair but nice amount of money per 5X7 or 8X10 or something, its worth your while to go through the effort of printing it and giving it to the client.  :0)

I was thinking of selling the negatives but now im thinking I wont after I heard you can make more with reprints.

Then after 10 years, maybe well them.


----------



## danalec99 (Oct 21, 2004)

terri said:
			
		

> danalec99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks terri .


----------



## green (Oct 21, 2004)

GerryDavid said:
			
		

> I was thinking of selling the negatives but now im thinking I wont after I heard you can make more with reprints.
> 
> Then after 10 years, maybe well them.



you may make more...  but you also have to work more, and in small chunks...  and even that...  making more isn't a guarantee.  I price my negatives high enough that its worthwhile to just sell em.  granted, I also shoot digitally, so all it costs me as a few bucks for cds, and i still have the original files.  (that way if someone loses theirs, I can charge for another set)


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 21, 2004)

How much do you sell your negatives for?  I can see charging $500 or so but I dont think they would pay that.  But if you can only get $200, you could make more with reprints, and its not that much work to print some pictures and sell it to the people.  If say you charge $40 for an 8X10, and they order at least one of those, your making like $35 an hour, which for me is worth the effort.  :0)

But everyone has thier own systems and idea of what thier time is worth.  :0)


----------



## Big Mike (Oct 21, 2004)

Does anyone do this...

A photographer around here who shot a couple of weddings in my girlfriend's family...just shoots and hands over the undeveloped film.

It's cheaper for the couple because they don't have to pay a premium for prints, enlargements etc.  It's easy for the photographer because he simply shoots and walks away...money paid on the spot, no proofing etc.

The couple has to trust that the photos will turn out.  I didn't ask what would happen if they didn't...or if the couple wasn't happy with the photos they got.

His rate was fairly low (but not that low)...for a wedding...so maybe that's the chance the couple takes.

Fortunately, he seems to be quite a good photographer and things have worked out well for all involved.


----------



## Solarize (Oct 22, 2004)

Some very useful points from all, but I have a tricky one.  

Say you are primarily a black and white wedding photographer that processes and prints all images in the darkroom (potentially very uneconomical I know).  

Do you offer proofs (would take a long time to make loads of darkroom proofs), do you offer a contact sheet (easy and economical but the images are small) or do you just put together an album with the prints you have edited and think look best.... perhaps with the couple able to make alteations afterwards? 

How would this apply if you were doing portrait sessions, again, offering an exclusive service with hand prints/framing etc?


----------



## green (Oct 22, 2004)

I charge about $250 for my negatives...  which works out to about $245/hour...  well...  less than an hour, since its just burning cds.    all in all, i work 1.5 days a week and come out with more money than i do in 40 hours at my day job.  actually...  more than i make on an average paycheque for 2 weeks.  I guess for me...  as long as I can make good money, i'm more than satisfied.  I've noticed that the generation that is getting married right now, being able to get the negatives is a major selling point.

I guess its all preference, Weddings are the cash cow...  but I'd rather spend the rest of my days expanding my business or taking pictures of things i want to...  than be running out to the lab all the time.


----------



## danalec99 (Oct 22, 2004)

green said:
			
		

> I've noticed that the generation that is getting married right now, being able to get the negatives is a major selling point.


We got our negatives back. I think, "packages" these days include the negatives. 




			
				green said:
			
		

> Weddings are the cash cow


I think Advertising is where the real money is. The 5 grand a photographer makes for a wedding is small change when compared to a real commercial work.


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 22, 2004)

Solarize said:
			
		

> Some very useful points from all, but I have a tricky one.
> 
> Say you are primarily a black and white wedding photographer that processes and prints all images in the darkroom (potentially very uneconomical I know).
> 
> ...



Hmm, you could scan the negatives in a dedicated negative scanner and make contact sheets from that that would be larger than if you did it from the negatives itself.  12 per 8X10 instead of 24 or something like that.  You could now print these digital veresions as 4X6's, but that wouldnt show what they would look like if they were done in the darkroom probably.

My boss has a negative projector system that hooks up to the tv and inverts the colors so it looks like what the printed result will, which he can use to show the customers the pictures if he chose to do it that way.  You could do something like that to show the clients, but they woudlnt have anything to take home with them.


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 22, 2004)

Oh, forgot to comment on this page's stuff, hehe.

$5k for a wedding?  :0)  I think most people around here dont charge more than a thousand or so.  I think the professionals in this area rarely charge more than $2.5k Cdn for thier larger packages.

Ive been told that a wedding takes about 40 hours of the photographers time, with the meeting with the clients before hand, the actual wedding itself, sorting and organizing the pictures, cleaning the pictures up if necessary, then meeting with the clients after to show them the pictures and to get them to choose what they want, if you do it that way, and then pieceing the album together, then meeting with them again and giving them the final result.  Then theres wedding insurrance to cover yourself incase the pictures dont turn out, incase the bride gets hurt when your directing her to do poses.  The cost of the film, or depreciation of your digital equipment, cost of the album, prints.  It ends up being around $5 an hour or so apperantly.  You could smooth things out and save money here and there, but the $245/h above doesnt seem realistic, hehe.


----------



## danalec99 (Oct 22, 2004)

GerryDavid said:
			
		

> $245/h above doesnt seem realistic, hehe.


Price range in and around New York


----------



## Karalee (Oct 22, 2004)

Mermin+Christie Photographers
Melissa Mermin 	

Price
3900.-*12000.*

:shock:


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 22, 2004)

I guess thats who the millionares like to hire.  The people that feel they gotta spend to much money for something for it to be worth while to have.  :0).

Hmm, perhaps I should try to target that market.  :0).  $50,000 for a wedding which includes just 2 hours, its $10,000 extra per additional hour, hmmm.  :0)  But the taxes on that, ouch.


----------



## Big Mike (Oct 22, 2004)

I think the average package around here is closer to $2000.  My buddy is getting hitched in February and he said the first guy they saw pitched them a $6000 package  :shock:


----------



## AIRIC (Oct 24, 2004)

I'm not a big fan of shooting weddings but I do about 5 or 6 a year through word of mouth. I charge $700 - $1,000 depending on how long they want me. This includes three meetings, introduction, the wedding and delivery of the package. This includes 8-12 rolls of 24exp film, a set  of 4x6 prints, a cheap album so they can view them easily and the negatives. I number the backs of the prints so they can easily order prints themselves. That is it, call me if you need me to shoot anything else. 

I like to keep it simple and don't feel like running around for a few prints. I will take a few and make them b/w to show them how they look and if they were very nice to me and my wife and offered us dinner at the reception I will do a couple of 8x10s as a surprise. Total cost under $200. 

Eric


----------



## Alison (Oct 24, 2004)

AIRIC said:
			
		

> . I will take a few and make them b/w to show them how they look and if they were very nice to me and my wife and offered us dinner at the reception I will do a couple of 8x10s as a surprise. Total cost under $200.
> 
> Eric



LMAO....free food is good   I was shocked at our first real wedding that our name was on the program and we got our choice of meals!!


----------



## GerryDavid (Oct 24, 2004)

Out of all the weddings ive been to this summer, only one gave us food before the wedding. :0)  I thought it was part of the package at first, hehe.


----------



## danalec99 (Oct 24, 2004)

Food is free in these parts!


----------



## AIRIC (Oct 25, 2004)

My wife and I have been very lucky. Any time we have been hired to stay for the reception we have been given a dinner. We are sometimes sat with  the guests or in another room with the DJ and such. Have never asked for it, just been offered. I always ask for a time out at a certain point, usually a half hour breather. 

Eric


----------



## green (Oct 26, 2004)

> green said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



by that i meant MY cash cow.    

granted, thats not necessarily true if my latest business venture works out

*crosses fingers*


----------



## AIRIC (Oct 26, 2004)

Green, 

That is why I do not refuse weddings. Don't like shooting them but  love the money. $1,000 for the day and about $200 for expenses, plus my wife takes her cut    I know I can make more off the reprints and enlargements but with a full time job and shooting aircraft on the weekends I just find it to be to much work. 

Eric


----------



## green (Oct 26, 2004)

Eric...  agreed.  you can't work full time and have other projects AND have to worry about running around for re-prints.  well... you can...  but is it worth your sanity?


----------



## japmula (Nov 22, 2004)

green said:
			
		

> I charge about $250 for my negatives...



hey green, so how many negs. do you charge for $250?


----------

