# self-defeating



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

So after I produce what I think are pretty good photos, I keep looking and almost always decide they are garbage.  Is that a blessing or a curse?  Anyone else get pretty critical of their work to the point they don't want to even show it to folks?


----------



## john.margetts (May 18, 2017)

It depends on what the pictures are for. I am happy to produce 10-12 'good' pictures a year - on that basis I am very critical. I am also happy to share not-so-good pictures if they are of some interest.

What I do not ever do is let myself be led to reject a picture for daft issues like sharpness, blown highlights and other non-issues that photographers get het up about.

Sent from my A1-840 using Tapatalk


----------



## smoke665 (May 18, 2017)

I've always been my worst critic, but I've learned to channel the criticism in more constructive ways. What did I do wrong, what should I do differently? Will every photo be a masterpiece? Nope, but not everyone is a failure. You learn by doing, by making mistakes.


----------



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

I think my issue is I often get in the moment and sort of forget what I should remember.  In the moment things look great.  This pic of my daughter? I think I don't like her left eye/side of her face being soft.  While it doesnt really ruin the pic, I can't stop seeing it now and wish I woulda-coulda-shoulda   That's what I mean - I do that with most photos lately.  She loves it, however - I have a hard time letting the viewer or 'customer' be the judge, ya know?


----------



## smoke665 (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> She loves it



I'm sure she does, it's a solid shot. Rather than being critical of your work, what should you or could you have done to achieve the look you wanted? I find myself making notes, and putting them in a little cheat book to refresh my memory the next time I'm in a similar situation.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> So after I produce what I think are pretty good photos, I keep looking and almost always decide they are garbage.  Is that a blessing or a curse?  Anyone else get pretty critical of their work to the point they don't want to even show it to folks?


I am at that point as well. For me, it's time to slow down on the shutter button, find a project, and plan a shot rather than take one. I need to find different subject matter. I have come to the conclusion, it's really about the light. I noticed this in the studio recently when shooting a flower. Why was is so boring? Well, I went through my project notebook and the better ones were ones where I added creative lighting (high lumen flash light) to subject. 

So lately, I have been looking for patterns  in nature. Looking for details in the shadows, interesting light creates interesting  shadows... @Gary A. made a comment about walking around a fountain and study the light. You see, Gary didn't tell me why and I new better to ask, so I did it. I called him after and we had a good laugh about it. But here's the deal, he wanted me to discover what the light was doing to the water. Then a light when on. 

For me, each level of photography seems to be harder to obtain. So I consider myself trying to climb out of the beginner stage after almost two years of shooting. How can I climb out to consistently produce fine art? I think for me, it's the light or more so, what is in the shadows. 

Funny thing is, I just wrote this in my project journal at 3:00 am this morning. Where am I going, what am I doing, why am I doing it, and what am I going to do about it? These are the questions I wrote on the index card that will be with me next time the camera is in my hand.


----------



## smoke665 (May 18, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> I am at that point as well. For me, it's time to slow down on the shutter button, find a project, and plan a shot rather than take one.



@Dashu This is probably the best advise anyone can give you. I need to make this into a flash card to wear around my neck. I watched a video of a commercial product shoot one time, and was in awe of the preparation that went into the setup. As JC goes on to say, each level does get harder, because little things are what distinguish a good shot from a fantastic one.


----------



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

thank you to all.  Makes sense.  I should create the habit of working my technical, planning aspect.  Start to have more awareness....and then if I take the shot I wanted, I should remember it's self-defeating to decide I wanted something else after the fact  

Another thing - I never chimp after - except to check histogram. Not that my old camera's rear display would even show me...but maybe I should start?  Dunno.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> thank you to all.  Makes sense.  I should create the habit of working my technical, planning aspect.  Start to have more awareness....and then if I take the shot I wanted, I should remember it's self-defeating to decide I wanted something else after the fact
> 
> Another thing - I never chimp after - except to check histogram. Not that my old camera's rear display would even show me...but maybe I should start?  Dunno.



Chimping has nothing to do with a good or bad image. I don't do it only because it looks different when on a big screen, waste of time and battery really. I have the auto preview turned off. With a Fuji, it's worthless to chimp if you shoot in raw because you can't zoom that far in anyway. Now let's say I am shooting a soccer game, I'll rip off a few test shot in JPEG fine and evaluate it, adjust EC and carry on for the game.


----------



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

Understood - I was trying to convey I shoot then forget and move to the next shot. I don't read the exif and think about the shot I made and what it may be...I'm too fast (that'swhatSHEsaid).  :beer:


----------



## Designer (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> I think my issue is I often get in the moment and sort of forget what I should remember.  In the moment things look great.  This pic of my daughter? I think I don't like her left eye/side of her face being soft.  While it doesnt really ruin the pic, I can't stop seeing it now and wish I woulda-coulda-shoulda   That's what I mean - I do that with most photos lately.  She loves it, however - I have a hard time letting the viewer or 'customer' be the judge, ya know?


Calculating the DOF during a session takes only a little time, and time well spent, IMO, but oddly, some newbies actually seem to strive for a very thin DOF, and consider it an enhancement of some sort.  So a thin DOF that actually has a large part of someone's face OOF has become a current fad, and as long as they're happy with it, then we are not welcome to criticize. 

Letting inexperienced people offer an opinion is generally fruitless, because you don't know if you're getting a valid critique or if someone is infatuated with the subject matter, as viewing through "mom's eyes".  We see a wide range of C&C on here, where I suspect that a widely-acclaimed photograph is lacking in photographic skill, but the subject is obviously what many viewers like.  Recently, one such photograph won "Photo of the month" while not being a very good example of photographic skill, the subject was engaging. 

Being self-critical is not a bad thing, but limit your criticism to a realistic set of attributes that you can decide to live with or change.


----------



## Gary A. (May 18, 2017)

Self-critiquing is necessary to climb up the learning curve of photography.  After reviewing every shot, I keep telling myself that I can do better.  That doesn't necessarily mean the stuff I got was garbage, but rather there is room for improvement.

The shot of your daughter, (a very attractive little girl), is very nice ... but you are right, it would be better if both eyes were sharp. After kicking yourself in the butt, make a note that next time make sure both eyes are in focus. In your next portrait both eyes will be sharp, but then you'll find something else that needs some improvement.  Good photography, is a culmination of properly addressing small details.  After a bit, the initial details become semi-automatic and you move on to new details.

If you're not shooting in Manual, try it every now and then. Shooting in Manual helps with the details, as you adjust the aperture you remember you'll need a bit more DOF for the eyes, adjusting the shutter speed will trigger a need to compensate for a long focal length or to turn on your IS, et cetera.

Sharing your good, but flawed, images is also a method to reinforce what you did well and discover new details you need to work on.


----------



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

I think I know if I'm getting a valuable critique because I know what is fluff and I know what is logic.  I think you're - just my first impression - a technical dude who would pull no punches if you are asked to critique.  Because you know what to look for and what you like in an image.   Your critique is no better nor worse than mine, even if yours is more learned or experienced.    There's a give and take in my mind - I would not sacrifice a beautiful photo that is technically 'wrong', if the subject is true and the production is moving.   I also would not reject a technically pure photo simply because I didn't prefer the style, subject, etc.   I hope that makes sense...at least a little.


Gary - thank you.   Good points.  I shoot in manual about 80% of the time.   For this photo I was worried about shutter speed and didn't want to advance the ISO any farther - was with a 300 f/4L about 15 feet away if I recall.  I should have bumped from probably f/4 to f7/8 and used the ISO to help the low light.   Shoulda - woulda-coulda   I simply have to remember - like mentioned above - to slow down a little bit.


----------



## runnah (May 18, 2017)

I'll let you know when I take a bad photo because it hasn't happened yet.


----------



## Derrel (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> So after I produce what I think are pretty good photos, I keep looking and almost always decide they are garbage.  Is that a blessing or a curse?  Anyone else get pretty critical of their work to the point they don't want to even show it to folks?



That does not sound like a blessing to me. There is quite often that feeling oif excitement, of seeing a scene, of seeing a photo happening before one's eyes, and then later, afteer the shot has been committed to the capture medium, there might be some loss of enthusiasm or some disappointment at seeing the actual, captured photos. I KNIW that every photographer has experienced that feeling, of ending up with shots that turned out to be, ukltimately, less-than-anticipated.



Dashur said:


> Another thing - I never chimp after - except to check histogram. Not that my old camera's rear display would even show me...but maybe I should start?  Dunno.



Perhaps there could be some benefit to reviewing the images at the time of their capture? Maybe you'd be able to review them quickly, and make changes that you might like more, at a later time? Perhaps the disappointment that you feel at later times could be avoided if there were some chimping done at the time of the photography? Questiuons I suppose that might reveal more about your photo journey than anything else.

Does not chimping add anything to the photographic process for you? Do you not have the time to review shots? How is not utilizing the rear LCD screen of benefit to you? Is it a principaled stand, based on emulating a film-type workflow, or more a matter of focusing on the time at hand?


----------



## Dashur (May 18, 2017)

Derrel said:


> Perhaps there could be some benefit to reviewing the images at the time of their capture? Maybe you'd be able to review them quickly, and make changes that you might like more, at a later time? Perhaps the disappointment that you feel at later times could be avoided if there were some chimping done at the time of the photography?
> 
> Does not chimping add anything to the photographic process for you? Do you not have the time to review shots? How is not utilizing the rear LCD screen of benefit to you?



Because My camera's LCD does not show what my computer shows.  it gives only a rudimentary view of what I actually captured.   And when i shoot, I tend to be 'in a groove' and don't like to stop.   So - if I had a "remotely modern" camera with a decent LCD Maybe I could get better use from it.  But for me? A "new" camera is from like...I dunno...2010?  I tend to not upgrade until the camera I have actually limits me.   I use a circa 2005? 1D Mark II (N) and an old Rebel TSi-something-or-nother....the photo of my daughter was taken with the Rebel.


----------



## Designer (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> I think you're - just my first impression - a technical dude ..


I'm slowly learning digital technology, but I think I'm pretty good at seeing what is there (or not there).


----------



## jcdeboever (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> Understood - I was trying to convey I shoot then forget and move to the next shot. I don't read the exif and think about the shot I made and what it may be...I'm too fast (that'swhatSHEsaid).  [emoji481]


I have read negative comments on chimping, who cares? Do what works for you. The technology is there for a reason, some cameras are better for it than others. Not a glowing feature on a Fujifilm X-T2, or X-Pro 2 and when shooting Raw or Raw + JPEG. It works good in JPEG fine however.


----------



## Designer (May 18, 2017)

Dashur said:


> My camera's LCD does not show what my computer shows.


Agreed.  I use it to check frame, focus, composition, eye-blinks, etc., and the histogram.


----------



## runnah (May 18, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> Dashur said:
> 
> 
> > Understood - I was trying to convey I shoot then forget and move to the next shot. I don't read the exif and think about the shot I made and what it may be...I'm too fast (that'swhatSHEsaid).  [emoji481]
> ...



Folks who have' their heads up their asses complain about chimping and SOC nonsense.


----------



## Gary A. (May 18, 2017)

Slowing down is soooo hard. I even purchased a medium format film camera that needs a tripod (an eight pound monster) ... I am reluctant to use it because it is soooo slow it drives me crazy.  

Film slowed me down because nothing was automatic and I only had 36 frames before I had to stop and reload. So I slowed down to conserve film. Film made me anticipate and wait for the best expression or the peak of action before releasing the shutter.  Digital is so easy and fast that the speed is addicting. I picked up a Fuji XP1, based entirely on the looks.  I thought it was a damn sexy camera ... so I bought it without any review of any kind. (Yes, I'm that shallow.)  It was a slow digital camera.  It did everything slow, it focused slow, it wrote to the card slow, it chimped slow ... in low light that slow dog of a camera just got worse.  (But surprisingly enough, it captured a great image, once it got around to it.) But instead of tossing that ol' dog away, I retrained myself to work with the short comings. It took me back to my film roots of anticipatory photography of taking my time, that one good shot is better than ten okay shots. Even though I am shooting the next generation Fuji with lightning fast focus and dSLR performance, I am shooting nearly everything in single frame ... it slows me down and lets me see what I'm capturing much better.

The 'N' is a nice camera.  Getting a little long in the tooth, but a nice camera nonetheless.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 18, 2017)

john.margetts said:


> *What I do not ever do is let myself be led to reject a picture for daft issues like sharpness, blown highlights and other non-issues that photographers get het up about*.





jcdeboever said:


> *Chimping has nothing to do with a good or bad image*





Gary A. said:


> *Self-critiquing is necessary to climb up the learning curve of photography. *After reviewing every shot, I keep telling myself that I can do better. That doesn't necessarily mean the stuff I got was garbage, but rather there is room for improvement.



I quoted these because just clicking *agree* isn't enough. They are dead on right.



Dashur said:


> Your critique is no better nor worse than mine, even if yours is more learned or experienced.



I quoted this because you are semi wrong.
You may eventually decide that critique is wrong but you need to consider it and balance it against what you thought before.
Everyone's critique is worth a lot because you are getting to read/hear what other people know and are seeing and thinking.
It may be that you don't know enough to 'see' that yet or that you can't even conceive that people actually think that.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

For example:

I don't care for this shot of your daughter.
The left side of the her face is effectively contourless; she still has a bit of baby-chubby there.
You need to back off, get the modelling of her chin, neck, her hair and shoulders in there; get her to face you a bit to provide some contour and interest.
Her eyes are great, get both of them working for the picture, you don't need all that cheek.
The image is a bit flat, no texture.
Also, it has a slight cold tinge.


----------



## Dashur (May 19, 2017)

The_Traveler said:


> I quoted this because you are semi wrong.
> You may eventually decide that critique is wrong but you need to consider it and balance it against what you thought before.
> Everyone's critique is worth a lot because you are getting to read/hear what other people know and are seeing and thinking.
> It may be that you don't know enough to 'see' that yet or that you can't even conceive that people actually think that.
> ...



And that's sort of my point.  I read your critique.  I place an internal value on what I read and I either accept it and think about incorporating the information or I ignore it. It's a little bit like somebody telling me what brand of whatever is "better" than the next.  

And your critique has solid feedback I'm considering.  And it has things I will let-be.   Your critique is not better than anyone's because it's your point of view - and when I submit something for critique I consider the beholder and preferences and all that.  

And I couldn't back off.  I was physically as far away from her as possible.


----------



## DanOstergren (May 24, 2017)

I do it fairly often. Simply put I think it's good to be critical of your own work because you need to train your eye to see what isn't working and be able to apply your critical eye to improve your work, but also you should look back at your old work and take some time to appreciate your progress. It can be re-affirming sometimes.


----------



## Rahb (May 24, 2017)

I'm no professional, and do not strive to be honestly.  I want to get as good as I can, and understand the process as much as possible.  I rarely have a shot that just blows me away.  I can appreciate other peoples work with no trouble, but I feel that is because I wasn't there shooting it.

At times there is an inherent lie in every photo I take.  I see what's not seen by the person looking at the photo.  Allot of times I judge my shots on that.  Then, you find a shot you are somewhat content with.  You post it only to have another person impart their views on what they would have done.  Throw that in with what you haven't liked or wanted to change, and you feel like the shot is junk.

I shoot often when working with the youth at our church.  Of course there are some very good photographers that attend our church and do professional work for the church and members at times.  I was almost embarrassed to bring my camera if I knew they were going to have a crew there.

Then something happened that really helped me.  I stopped worrying about it.  Every time I take a photo when a friend or family asks me to, they are always pleased with the results.  They surpass what their ability would have been, and they love them.  The youth rarely gets access to any of the photos taken by the professionals, and my youth director pulled me aside one day.  It's like he could since that I was willing, but uneasy about taking photos for him during our trips and events.  He showed me photos he has taken at events on his phone, then he showed me how he has used them on their social media, and then an example of what he'd prefer it looked like with the spots he made using my shots.  She said they are immensely better than what he can get.  That's when I realized, I'm always going to be critical, but what's "not good enough" in my eyes could be very satisfying to someone who gets 90% of their photos from instagram, snapchat, etc.

Disclaimer, I'm not a professional, and not trying to make any money at this.  I do it because I enjoy it, and won't take on a serious "job" because I don't want to take a gig from a professional.  I focus on the hobby aspect, and the opportunity it affords me to better my skill in this.

Don't know if that helps at all...


----------



## table1349 (May 24, 2017)

*Constructive Pessimism: Why Artists Are Never Happy*


----------



## The_Traveler (May 24, 2017)

Dashur said:


> Your critique is not better than anyone's because it's your point of view - and when I submit something for critique I consider the beholder and preferences and all that.



Just want to point out that this sentence is internally contradictory.

"when I submit something for critique I consider the beholder and preferences and all that"   _you are saying that you consider what you know about the person giving critique_
'Your critique is not better than anyone's because it's your point of view" - _everyone's critique is equal as far as you're concerned._


----------



## Dashur (May 25, 2017)

The_Traveler said:


> Dashur said:
> 
> 
> > Your critique is not better than anyone's because it's your point of view - and when I submit something for critique I consider the beholder and preferences and all that.
> ...





> _you are saying that you consider what you know about the person giving critique_


_
_
Of course - I consider the person giving the critique; what do I know about them?  I know they are not me.  I know they have their preferences.  I know their preferences are necessarily not mine.  Thus their critique is no better (nor worse) than anyone else.  Thus, everyone's critique is equal as far as I'm concerned.  It's not internally contradictory - it's internally harmonious.


----------



## Fred von den Berg (May 25, 2017)

I remember seeing a documentary years ago about a research station in the Antarctic where new arrivals were given a series of talks and presentations. One thing that was stressed is that in the case of an emergency or accident no one would be left for dead outside the station: you aren't dead until you're warm and dead. This is something I apply to the photos I'm not sure about - they get put away for a while and perhaps in time I will warm to them.


----------



## Designer (May 25, 2017)

Dashur said:


> Of course - I consider the person giving the critique; what do I know about them?  I know they are not me.  I know they have their preferences.  I know their preferences are necessarily not mine.  Thus their critique is no better (nor worse) than anyone else.  Thus, everyone's critique is equal as far as I'm concerned.  It's not internally contradictory - it's internally harmonious.


That's just silly.  It may make you feel good internally to be "nonjudgemental", but I think most people are judgmental, so what have you proved?


----------



## Dashur (May 25, 2017)

Designer said:


> Dashur said:
> 
> 
> > Of course - I consider the person giving the critique; what do I know about them?  I know they are not me.  I know they have their preferences.  I know their preferences are necessarily not mine.  Thus their critique is no better (nor worse) than anyone else.  Thus, everyone's critique is equal as far as I'm concerned.  It's not internally contradictory - it's internally harmonious.
> ...



What would you like me to have proven?  I'm saying I don't care a whole lot about critiques in terms of "That person says I should have done it another way!" because I know they are giving their honest view from their perspective.  Are you missing a LOT of context to my statements - what are you trying to get at with your reply?  What is holding you back from understanding I do not hold one critique necessarily higher in esteem than another?


----------



## Designer (May 25, 2017)

Dashur said:


> What is holding you back from understanding I do not hold one critique necessarily higher in esteem than another?


I understood your post.


----------



## jcdeboever (May 25, 2017)

Dashur said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > Dashur said:
> ...


Sometimes the critique is obviously not useful.... Like, "keep practicing". Or a quick critique that lacks any direction. If I want to improve, I have to ask for specific direction... Like, I noticed my outdoor portraits look flat. In this photo, I didn't use flash. Shot at f/5.6 @250s, ISO 400... You will get more of a response this way for improvement.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 25, 2017)

Dashur said:


> Thus, everyone's critique is equal as far as I'm concerned.



So, any opinion I might have about your photos or editing (after 12 or 13 years of working hard at photography and editing) has the same weight in your mind as that of someone who just picked up a camera and loves everything?


----------



## jcdeboever (May 25, 2017)

The_Traveler said:


> Dashur said:
> 
> 
> > Thus, everyone's critique is equal as far as I'm concerned.
> ...


Lee, your critique has always been very useful. I have several notations in my journal from critique you gave me as well as others. I thank you for that.


----------



## DanOstergren (May 26, 2017)

Dashur said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Dashur said:
> ...


I don't know, I would find the critique of an expert to be much more valuable and "better" than the critique of someone who is inexperienced. There are many cases in which one person's critique is much better than someone else's.


----------



## Gary A. (May 26, 2017)

Often, if I get conflicting remarks, I will vet said remarks by visiting the photosites of the remark giver(s).  This helps me qualify and give weight to the critiques and the critique giver.


----------



## The_Traveler (May 26, 2017)

Gary A. said:


> Often, if I get conflicting remarks, I will vet said remarks by visiting the photosites of the remark giver(s). This helps me qualify and give weight to the critiques and the critique giver



True.
But.......   everyone profits from giving critique as long as they know why they like/dislike something.
Constructing a critique is the best exercise to improve one's esthetic sense.


----------

