# Question about my pricing



## Kra_Ash (Jan 25, 2012)

The last thread I posted, I have had some problems with the lady I took the anniversary pictures for. 
She is trying to rip me off by naming her own price when I told her from the beginning what my prices were and if she wants anymore photos from our shoot than the original 6 she got, she still has to pay for them. 
You don't receive 45 pictures for only $120 bucks, that's ripping me off big time. Now I don't think I'm an amazing photographer since I've just started but it's not Jc penny quality and I'm not giving her bad pictures.

I just found it very rude of her to start naming her own prices, telling me what *I* should do when it's like...you don't go into a resturant or store and tell them, "I want this for this price" it's *my* business, not yours. 

Before we even started the shoot, she sent me pictures of an example of what she wanted done. Poses and the way the lighting and editing was done on it. So I told her yeah, that's simple to do it's just photoshop really to do the editing. We went to downtown Cleveland, Oh and there was a tree up so we took pictures there. 

She's telling me now, these were taken in December, that she hates the black and white ones (which she bought 4 of those out of 6) and hates the background. She wanted a simple white background like in the examples, which she did not tell me. She let me choose the location, since I'm the photographer, told me in the beginning she loved it and so does her husband and now she's telling me she doesn't want to ever work with me again and cursing at me but I didn't do anything wrong? I have the conversation saved and everything was agreed on.

Then she also kept telling me about this other photo business, which when I gave her the cd with her pictures, she was complaining that they take bad photos and it's basically like going to jc penny or sears. Which mine aren't like that. But now she's telling me that she's going to go to them from now on because they are a lot cheaper. Well...you get what you pay for right? And every photographer has different pricing so why would I make mine like theirs? 
Then she mentioned how she'll take me to court over this, yadda yadda. I re-read our conversation. If she really were to do so, it's basically because she doesn't like my pricing, she's making her own, and she's mad that I keep telling her "I told you my prices from the beginning."
I'm taking this at a very business like stand point, being as calm and nice as I can be, and it's very stressful to be attacked like this over not wanting to pay for what I told her.  :???:


I want to know, since I cannot call myself a profesional yet, what anyone thinks about these prices I have made if they're fair for me and the client.

*Weddings* (for everything I take pictures there) $550. 
(I've read that amateur photographers price from 1,000-5,000 and since I do not have a studio or official business yet, I should cut it in half)
*Cds*- $30 (I've read about how places charge for the cds. If someone could be kind and explain to me why exactly they charge for cds? My boyfriend is good with business and he doesn't understand why you would charge I tried explaining to him, but maybe someone else has a better explanation for it)
*Any portraits, nature, kids, pet, etc shots*- $15 a picture if under an hour. If reaches an hour, $100 for every hr.
*Anything printed*,- which is hard for me since I do not own a printer nor have the money to get one, when I do have photo classes I can print them for $3 each.


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## cannpope (Jan 25, 2012)

I am not a professional yet, but when I do decide to go that route, I WILL NOT work before a contract is signed and a retainer is given.  Verbal agreements are just not good enough.  It has to be on paper to make sure you CYA.  Since you have no written contract, nothing will hold in court.  I think that she is just threatening you to get what she wants, but I would leave the situation alone.  It's hard for me to say what you could/should charge since I haven't seen any of your work.  You may get some answers if you post some of the pics here.


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## tirediron (Jan 25, 2012)

With respect to your first issue, the client who wants to name her own price:  What does your contract say?   Don't have one?  Guess what?  It's not worth the effort; get what you can out of it and chalk it up to an (hopefully not very) expensive lesson.  NEVER conduct business without a contract!

I'm confused wihen I read that you don't have an "official" business.  Does this mean that you're not licensed and ensured?  If so, than you shouldn't be charging anything to anyone.  

Your prices seem VERY low to me.  I charge a flat rate of $100/hour for my time, whether behind the camera or behind the computer.  For any products (Books, prints, framing, etc) I charge my cost +40%.  The reason that photographers charge a lot for a CD of digital images is because traditionally, most of the money for a portrait session was made from print sales; by giving the clients digital files, you're forgoing all that potential income.

Summary:  Once you're legal (assuming you aren't right now), draft up a fixed price list and a contract.  Have the contract reviewed by a lawyer and at your pre-shoot consultation (which you do, right?) you explain the contract to the client, spell out exactly what you will deliver and what the cost will be.

Good luck!


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## cannpope (Jan 25, 2012)

^^^^^^Great information


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jan 25, 2012)

"those prices are great suggestions, but if you want these the price is ____"

Contract is right answer - on a side note if you're not understanding business practices why not have a business manager.

But don't get upset with this client and do what some might do:


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm still in college so I don't have a studio or anything. I'm doing this to get my name out there which I've been told to do by a lot of people is okay I just have to do taxes or something for it since it's another source of income. My teachers, other photographers that I know said it is okay for me to charge, etc.

Krakowski Photography - Local Business - Parma, OH | Facebook 

This is my photo page, sadly, since I'm broke, don't have the money to make a official page for my stuff. The first album is her pictures, sorry for the quality, facebook ruins them.

And I have low prices (which she says is too pricy) since again, Im not a professional yet and I don't see it right to charge more.
No I do not have a contract set up yet, I didn't think about doing that (silly me) but I do have all of what we talked about typed out and saved. I do have model release forms but I don't think that works for the same reason? Would the contract be just like the release forms just with the pricing on it, what's paid, what isnt?

At this point, I just want it to end, she's getting out of hand with it. I want to tell her she has two options of either taking what she has and I send her the $6 since I couldn't print the two pictures, or she can pay for 9 (or 15 she wasnt clear) more pictures, and I'll discount the price so she can be happy with it)


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 25, 2012)

HAHA! love the picture


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## cannpope (Jan 25, 2012)

I love 2wheel's sense of humor :lmao:


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 25, 2012)

Sigh now she's saying she'll come to my parents house, where I don't live and it says on my page that is strictly for mail use only, and she will go there and if I'm not there Friday to give her the pictures that she paid for (which she already has them, I don't know what the hell she is talking about) then she'll call the police, file against me and take me to court. And if I'm not there, she will go to my work, which, she won't be allowed in anyways (work for newspaper company) you can only go in if it's about your papers or work there so....She can take me to court. 
I have documentation of everything we've talked about and saved it. Told her from the start $15 a picture, she's agreed to it, has even mentioned it through the attack 5 times...FIVE TIMES that she knows I charge $15 a picture...so why she is suing me in the first place? I have *no* idea....and it doesn't help that the lawyer is a family member of hers so it's a completely biased opinion on this now. Lost 3 followers because of this but live and learn.
Wish me luck guys >_<


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## MLeeK (Jan 25, 2012)

Well, seeing how you are not legitimately in business... I'd roll over for her. 
Yep, she's a b!tch. However, you don't have a business license, you don't have a contract and you didn't pay sales tax on that $ you made. She can make your life a living hell and being a broke college student is the least of the pain you will feel. 
If she's an ounce of smart b!tch she'll be reporting your "business" activities to the city, county, state and IRS. 
You don't go into business without taking care of the government first and foremost. They'll end your business before it ever starts. Being a broke college student isn't an excuse. The sales tax ID is free, you charge the client your sales tax so there is nothing out of pocket. The local business certificate/license may run you $50 if it's REALLY expensive. $50 or having the IRS and sales tax breathing down your neck? 

If you are going to stand your ground you could easily have her arrested for harassment when she appears at your home and work. She is threatening and menacing you. Rather illegal. 
HOWEVER... you are also risking your future business: You have already lost 3 followers because of it and she's only making a little stink now. When she gets arrested for harassment or goes to court against you she's going to be sure to tell EVERYONE and ANYONE who will listen. She's making a little stink now trying to get whatever she wants out of you. When you don't roll she's going to make a bigger stink which leads back to your less than legal business activities and word of mouth. EVERYONE will hear if you get nailed to the wall or if she wants to screech. That's risking your future legitimate business.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

I know this, that I have to pay taxes on it and I am. I know that this is another source of income and I have to pay taxes on that, I've been told before.
And I did everything I could to bargain with her and she wasn't taking it. She wanted a really low price for 35 pictures and I kept telling her, I'll go halfway but I'm not doing less than $100 or for free, still have to pay for them.
I don't think she'd ruin my business. They were two people that she knew so of course they only hear her side of the story. Everyone has to have someone that doesn't like their work and talks badly about them but the guy I know, he had someone send two emails bashing his work saying he needs to be out of the industry for making these girls look how they do and they probably hate it, yet they wouldn't have volunteered, and he's still doing fine. 
And I'm looking up the licenses, it's only $25 here so I will do that today, thank you.


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## CCericola (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not an accountant or lawyer but since you are not a registered business and do not collect sales tax and declare your earnings as income then I think that would make your pictures "work for hire" In the case of work for hire, the client owns the images including copyright and you would have to ask her permission to use them in your portfolio. If this is the case you will lose in small claims court. 

Keith, where are you when we you?!


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

CCericola said:
			
		

> I'm not an accountant or lawyer but since you are not a registered business and do not collect sales tax and declare your earnings as income then I think that would make your pictures "work for hire" In the case of work for hire, the client owns the images including copyright and you would have to ask her permission to use them in your portfolio. If this is the case you will lose in small claims court.
> 
> Keith, where are you when we you?!




I have to do my taxes for earned income since its less than 600 a year. She was my first client that payed me which I recieved $126 for last year. I am looking into the bsiness licenses more because its not like I have more than, if I'm lucky, two people a year. I just started actually selling them and this lady has been my first customer. 
Just so I have a clear explanation, why would the copyrighted images need permission?


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## CCericola (Jan 26, 2012)

Because in the case of Work for Hire, the client owns the images. Like when I worked for a studio. Every picture I took belonged to the studio. When I worked for an ad agency, any designs I did for the company belonged to them. But in your case, I'm not sure if it is work for hire. That would be a question for a lawer. Your campus should have some sort of free legal advice that you get take advantage of or see if there is an attourney near you that will give you a free consultation. 

I have heard the same story over and over about a photographer or a designer that quit or was fired and then complained that their former employer would not give them or let them use examples of their work. And basically they are told that they are SOL.  Best advice I can give is never burn your bridges with employers.


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## cgipson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

They are snapshots.. give them to her, and hope that she walks away! Otherwise you are screwed. 

As mentioned, taxes, business license, etc.. and buying one today wont help in court for what you did then. No contract? lol! You are screwed! Personally.. I would stop shooting (and charging) until you get all your ducks in a row. Oh.. and instead of YOU printing your shots .. you might want to consider a good lab.


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## bazooka (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> I know this, that I have to pay taxes on it and I am.



I think she's talking about sales tax, not income tax.  Sales tax is what you collect from your client for local rates and state rates and then send them a check either monthly, quarterly, or yearly.


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## MLeeK (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not your income tax. SALES TAX! And they can nail you for every dime they THINK you made which is the average photographer's sales tax per however long THEY determine you have been in business.

You have to have a signed model release from the persons in the images or their legal parent or guardian if you want to post anything on the internet-ANYWHERE-or you want to show those images in a portfolio of any sort. In short, having them posted to facebook is illegal also. 

The work for hire does not apply to a photographer, but could get sticky because there is not a contract and you could actually be considered work for hire if they claim to have hired you a certain way. Keith can explain that better than any of the rest of us if he's around. He's pretty versed in the legal aspects. You really need to consult an attorney regarding all of this. While we can tell you what we know, it's not going to help you in court or could just plain be wrong.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> Not your income tax. SALES TAX! And they can nail you for every dime they THINK you made which is the average photographer's sales tax per however long THEY determine you have been in business.
> 
> You have to have a signed model release from the persons in the images or their legal parent or guardian if you want to post anything on the internet-ANYWHERE-or you want to show those images in a portfolio of any sort. In short, having them posted to facebook is illegal also.
> 
> The work for hire does not apply to a photographer, but could get sticky because there is not a contract and you could actually be considered work for hire if they claim to have hired you a certain way. Keith can explain that better than any of the rest of us if he's around. He's pretty versed in the legal aspects. You really need to consult an attorney regarding all of this. While we can tell you what we know, it's not going to help you in court or could just plain be wrong.




Okay thank you. I will have to talk to an attorney then. This is just crazy to think my first client is already suing me -_-


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## memorishots (Jan 26, 2012)

I feel bad for you lol but it's really easy to get a tax ID and EMI. And if your client has not fully paid you ... You are still the owner of the picture unless you sell it to some one else .  So technically she won't win in court if you use her picture for you portfolio.  Just don't sell it for money.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Well, seeing how you are not legitimately in business... I'd roll over for her.



What?  Why is she not "legitimately" in business?  How do you define "legitimately?"



MLeeK said:


> you  don't have a contract



Says who?  On what basis did you reach the conclusion that they did not enter into a contract?  Please don't tell me because nothing is "in writing."  Please don't make that the basis of your argument.



MLeeK said:


> You don't go into business without taking care of the government first  and foremost. They'll end your business before it ever starts. Being a  broke college student isn't an excuse. The sales tax ID is free, you  charge the client your sales tax so there is nothing out of pocket. The  local business certificate/license may run you $50 if it's REALLY  expensive. $50 or having the IRS and sales tax breathing down your neck?



I won't speak to the issues of sales tax ID and the collection of sales taxes, etc, but I think you dramatically overstate the IRS issues here.  Let's say she earned a few hundred dollars shooting images.  She likely would not owe federal income taxes and may not even be required to file a federal income tax return.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

memorishots said:
			
		

> I feel bad for you lol but it's really easy to get a tax ID and EMI. And if your client has not fully paid you ... You are still the owner of the picture unless you sell it to some one else .  So technically she won't win in court if you use her picture for you portfolio.  Just don't sell it for money.



Lol thanks. Yeah she already paid me for it all. I just owe her $6 for two prints I wasn't able to get for her. I wouldn't use her pictures for anything besides showing others what I can do. And when I start a portfolio, those would not be in it. They're devent, but not portfolio worthy. 

I found this while looking up business license for photography businesses. Would this apply to me as well?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110126100228AAdUB2O


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> What?  Why is she not "legitimately" in business?  How do you define "legitimately?"
> 
> Says who?  On what basis did you reach the conclusion that they did not enter into a contract?  Please don't tell me because nothing is "in writing."  Please don't make that the basis of your argument.
> 
> I won't speak to the issues of sales tax ID and the collection of sales taxes, etc, but I think you dramatically overstate the IRS issues here.  Let's say she earned a few hundred dollars shooting images.  She likely would not owe federal income taxes and may not even be required to file a federal income tax return.




I have documents saved of our conversations from when she first contacted me. It shows her agreeing to.my prices and understandig it. I've read about how its not the best but it still shows there has been an agreement about it.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm an attorney and anybody who tells you "there is no contract _*unless you have something in writing*_" is not correct.  Now, certain contracts are required to be in writing (sales of land, for example and others), but in this case, unless there is some statutory obligation to reduce an agreement to writing (highly unlikely), then you likely have a contract with her.   The point is that legally enforceable oral contracts are entered into every single day.

I'd suggest that you threaten to sue her for breach of contract if she doesn't pay you what she's contracted to pay you for these images.

I don't have all the facts in front of me and I'm not giving you legal advice, but if it were me personally, that's what I would do.


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## tirediron (Jan 26, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> You have to have a signed model release from the persons in the images or their legal parent or guardian if you want to post anything on the internet-ANYWHERE-or you want to show those images in a portfolio of any sort. In short, having them posted to facebook is illegal also...


What???????????????  When did this change?


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

tirediron said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > You have to have a signed model release from the persons in the images or their legal parent or guardian if you want to post anything on the internet-ANYWHERE-or you want to show those images in a portfolio of any sort. In short, having them posted to facebook is illegal also...
> ...



Yeah, I've never heard this either.


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## tirediron (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm an attorney and anybody who tells you "there is no contract _*unless you have something in writing*_" is not correct. Now, certain contracts are required to be in writing (sales of land, for example and others), but in this case, unless there is some statutory obligation to reduce an agreement to writing (highly unlikely), then you likely have a contract with her. The point is that legally enforceable oral contracts are entered into every single day.
> 
> I'd suggest that you threaten to sue her for breach of contract if she doesn't pay you what she's contracted to pay you for these images.
> 
> I don't have all the facts in front of me and I'm not giving you legal advice, but if it were me personally, that's what I would do.


In practical terms however, a verbal contract is generally worth exactly the same as the paper on which it is written.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

tirediron said:


> In practical terms however, a verbal contract is generally worth exactly the same as the paper on which it is written.



I don't even know what that means...nice bumper sticker though.


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## memorishots (Jan 26, 2012)

It would apply to you in a small way only because you have not paid taxes on your profit but you can also claim a lost if your equipment cost more then you profit .. ( little tricks on owning a business.  But what I don't fully understand is why you think she can sue you.  If you have not sold her pictures to any company for advertisement. Also start the business ASaP it only coast like 187$ and you get a tax break when you buy equipment lol


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

memorishots said:


> you have not paid taxes on your profit



Who says she has made a profit?  Lots of assumptions in these posts.  She may have revenues, but she also has expenses that she can deduct, including depreciation on her equipment which memoirshots alluded to in his post.  She may be claimed on her parents' tax return as a college student (again, lots of assumptions in the responses to this thread).  If she's not claimed by her parents, then if she claims herself her personal exemption would exceed her taxable income and again, she may not owe taxes.

Too many assumptions in these answers to give her really clear guidance on her issue.  

I'm not even convinced she's "being sued" as she stated.  Based on what I've read, she's in an argument with a client but there has been no lawsuit filed.  What person would file a lawsuit where the damages are negligible?  What a waste of time and energy.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> I'm an attorney and anybody who tells you "there is no contract unless you have something in writing" is not correct.  Now, certain contracts are required to be in writing (sales of land, for example and others), but in this case, unless there is some statutory obligation to reduce an agreement to writing (highly unlikely), then you likely have a contract with her.   The point is that legally enforceable oral contracts are entered into every single day.
> 
> I'd suggest that you threaten to sue her for breach of contract if she doesn't pay you what she's contracted to pay you for these images.
> 
> I don't have all the facts in front of me and I'm not giving you legal advice, but if it were me personally, that's what I would do.



This helps just as much though. Thank you. I've been told I can also have her arrested or something if she goes to my parents house tomorrow or comes to my work for harassment?  I don't even know why she really is coming to either place, she said if I'm not there she will call the police and file a charge against me? 
Guh, I don't know! Haha


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> Who says she has made a profit?  Lots of assumptions in these posts.  She may have revenues, but she also has expenses that she can deduct, including depreciation on her equipment which memoirshots alluded to in his post.  She may be claimed on her parents' tax return as a college student (again, lots of assumptions in the responses to this thread).  If she's not claimed by her parents, then if she claims herself her personal exemption would exceed her taxable income and again, she may not owe taxes.
> 
> Too many assumptions in these answers to give her really clear guidance on her issue.
> 
> I'm not even convinced she's "being sued" as she stated.  Based on what I've read, she's in an argument with a client but there has been no lawsuit filed.  What person would file a lawsuit where the damages are negligible?  What a waste of time and energy.



Yes, I am under my parents for taxes.
And my last post says, she will come by my parents or work tomorrow for whatever reason she plans to, if I'm not there, she will call police, file against me, then take me to court. She plans to, but I won't know if anything will happen for real, till tomorrow.


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## MReid (Jan 26, 2012)

The lessons you learned from this are worth more than the money you are trying to get from her (not going to happen).
Give her what she wants and be done with it.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

If she comes to your parents house or your work and is harrassing you, I'd call the police right away.  I think she's blowing off steam and trying to bark as loud as possible and get you to cower.

Sometimes the simplest solution to these types of issues is to just give them what they want and avoid them in the future.  Chalk it up to "lesson learned" and move forward.

No point in escalating the issue if you can diffuse it.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

MReid said:


> The lessons you learned from this are worth more than the money you are trying to get from her (not going to happen).
> Give her what she wants and be done with it.



Exactly.  You beat me to the punch.


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## cannpope (Jan 26, 2012)

Personally, I wouldn't worry with her any longer. She's not worth the stress she is causing you. Send her a money order for the $6 you owe her in prints and tell her to leave you alone or you will have an order of protection placed against her. She's pulling your chains to see if she can get what she wants. I hope she doesn't intimidate her husband that way :/ Unless she has a lot of $$, I doubt she will ever sue you. She could have spent the $$ that she is going to sue you with on some phenomenal photos!!


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> If she comes to your parents house or your work and is harrassing you, I'd call the police right away.  I think she's blowing off steam and trying to bark as loud as possible and get you to cower.
> 
> Sometimes the simplest solution to these types of issues is to just give them what they want and avoid them in the future.  Chalk it up to "lesson learned" and move forward.
> 
> ...



She's said that she's coming to get the pictures and cd she's paid for.
But, I already gave those to her...so I really don't know why she's doing this. I tried to bargain with her if she wants more pictures from the shoot, let's talk about prices so she can get the pictures so were.done and she doesn't want to. Just going straight to doing this.


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## jaicatalano (Jan 26, 2012)

Unfortunately being that you are getting paid for your work you are a professional. If you don't feel so in your heart then try to come to terms with it because to charge someone is because they believe your work to be of a better or more professional quality then if it were free. It also sounds like she offended you more than the pricing issue. Had she come across more humanly to you you might have seen things differently.


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## cannpope (Jan 26, 2012)

Point blank...if she comes to your house or your place of employment...as soon as you see her...call the POLICE!!    There are laws that protect people from stalkers and harrassers.   This should be a huge lesson learned.  I do feel bad for you in this situation though because you are young and didn't know any better.   She should know better, she's a grown woman.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

cannpope said:
			
		

> Point blank...if she comes to your house or your place of employment...as soon as you see her...call the POLICE!!    There are laws that protect people from stalkers and harrassers.   This should be a huge lesson learned.  I do feel bad for you in this situation though because you are young and didn't know any better.   She should know better, she's a grown woman.



Yeah :/ thank you. I've told my mother about it and she will call the police if she shows up. My dad is helping out as well as my boyfriend.


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## MLeeK (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> memorishots said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, mostly... Each city, municipality, county, state, etc has their own requirements and rules. You should have a chapter of the SBA or SBDC at your college or somewhere near you. Their advice is invaluable about what you will need. You can start at The U.S. Small Business Administration | SBA.gov and go from there. As you narrow things down it will go down to the state level for you. They quite often give free or low cost classes for people such as you who are just venturing into business. The website alone is an amazing resource for a new business. 
Don't depend on internet advice for much of anything. ANYONE can put ANYTHING on the internet and say it's the gospel truth. A consult with an attorney is always free. Consulting with an attorney can help you oodles without retaining him or her. There is also mention of legal aid thru your school, etc. I have no clue what's available there, but check. 
You should seek an attorney's advice about this matter, but more so about the business stuff for your future clients. You need a good portrait contract. There are OODLES of them out there on the internet that you can use. It needs to cover everything you are promising the client and everything the client is responsible for. Then it needs to be reviewed by an attorney. You can never spell out too much in a contract. There may be parts of what you spell out that is overkill or unenforceable, but too much is never a bad thing. The usual: WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE HOW and WHY (or what for... $.) 
You should also seek the advice of an accountant/CPA regarding your responsibilities for income, sales tax, record keeping, etc... Yea though you are reporting your income at this point, you probably aren't ACTUALLY making a profit and if you did things differently you would not be tax liable for that income. There are some things you need to consider and plan for in there, but a CPA can guide you along. It's tax time. If you haven't done your taxes from last year take them into any actual tax office and talk with the actual certified accountant there and he or she can guide you on what to set up for next year's. 

You mentioned in your original post about prints and a printer-VERY few of us print our own prints. It's not cost effective. You need to use a GOOD, reputable, professional grade lab. The price of your prints does not only need to include the cost  you pay, but it also needs to consider all of the other factors of cost of doing business and cost of goods-time invested, equipment, shipping, licensing, your taxes, sales tax... The list is pretty extensive. So a print that costs you $2 at the lab does not really cost you $2.
For example that $2 print: you had to take the shot, process the shot, show the client however you are showing (post to internet-and your internet service costs you...), you used your car to go there, computer to process, electric to run the computer to process, camera to take the shot... every one of those things cost you something. Even though you already own it. Your computer will get used up, your camera costs you somewhere around a penny for every shot you take-you do have to replace it eventually. You had to spend time getting the order and/or emailing the client, then placing the order, receiving the order, checking the order, delivering the order (which may require your car...) All of those things figure into the cost of that print. That is why the national average for an 8x10 is upwards of $25 per print. 
You don't have a tax id yet, but there are many labs that won't require it: Mpix.com, WHCC, CPQ, BayPhoto... it's a LONG list, but those are all well loved. WHCC is probably the choice I see most new photogs go with and they seem to love it. 

I have had several people and conversations about this start up business costs, pricing, etc questions lately and I really am working on a post about it. It's just that this is my busiest month of the year right now and I am literally balls to the wall running my butt off... I will definitely get there... I will try to remember your S/N when I get there! I am here daily and I have a few minutes to point you somewhere if you need it, but I don't have a ton of time like I usually do right now. Feel free to send a note if you have a question I might be able to point you towards a resource for.


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## MLeeK (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> MReid said:
> 
> 
> > The lessons you learned from this are worth more than the money you are trying to get from her (not going to happen).
> ...



In this instance I'd give her the CD of all of the images and cut your losses. It's not going to cost you any more and going to court may cost you in the end. Even if you win it costs you to get there, prepare, etc. It  may even mean missing a class... Not worth the headache.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> Yes, mostly... Each city, municipality, county, state, etc has their own requirements and rules. You should have a chapter of the SBA or SBDC at your college or somewhere near you. Their advice is invaluable about what you will need. You can start at The U.S. Small Business Administration | SBA.gov and go from there. As you narrow things down it will go down to the state level for you. They quite often give free or low cost classes for people such as you who are just venturing into business. The website alone is an amazing resource for a new business.
> Don't depend on internet advice for much of anything. ANYONE can put ANYTHING on the internet and say it's the gospel truth. A consult with an attorney is always free. Consulting with an attorney can help you oodles without retaining him or her. There is also mention of legal aid thru your school, etc. I have no clue what's available there, but check.
> You should seek an attorney's advice about this matter, but more so about the business stuff for your future clients. You need a good portrait contract. There are OODLES of them out there on the internet that you can use. It needs to cover everything you are promising the client and everything the client is responsible for. Then it needs to be reviewed by an attorney. You can never spell out too much in a contract. There may be parts of what you spell out that is overkill or unenforceable, but too much is never a bad thing. The usual: WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE HOW and WHY (or what for... $.)
> You should also seek the advice of an accountant/CPA regarding your responsibilities for income, sales tax, record keeping, etc... Yea though you are reporting your income at this point, you probably aren't ACTUALLY making a profit and if you did things differently you would not be tax liable for that income. There are some things you need to consider and plan for in there, but a CPA can guide you along. It's tax time. If you haven't done your taxes from last year take them into any actual tax office and talk with the actual certified accountant there and he or she can guide you on what to set up for next year's.
> ...



Wow thank you TONS! After I'm off work I will check out those websites and everything else. Most importantly I will call a attorney first.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> Wow thank you TONS! After I'm off work I will check out those websites and everything else. Most importantly I will call a attorney first.



For the record, I'm both a practicing tax attorney and a CPA, but MLeek is right--you should consult with a tax professional in your area.  Good information and advice.


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## cannpope (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm going to go ahead and agree with MLeeK on this.   More than likely, she will take the CD to WalMart or some other retail store to have them printed.   If your watermark is on every image, most places will not make prints without your release on them.   If this happens and you are contacted to go and sign a release, take your time in doing that.  I surely wouldn't rush    I'm really a nice person ya'll


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

cannpope said:
			
		

> I'm going to go ahead and agree with MLeeK on this.   More than likely, she will take the CD to WalMart or some other retail store to have them printed.   If your watermark is on every image, most places will not make prints without your release on them.   If this happens and you are contacted to go and sign a release, take your time in doing that.  I surely wouldn't rush    I'm really a nice person ya'll



Lol, well there's no watermark but in the file info it does have my name on them.


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## Tee (Jan 26, 2012)

For God sakes, take your address off your FB page.  It's your parents address.  Don't allow them to become collateral damage.


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## KmH (Jan 26, 2012)

CCericola said:


> I'm not an accountant or lawyer but since you are not a registered business and do not collect sales tax and declare your earnings as income then I think that would make your pictures "work for hire" In the case of work for hire, the client owns the images including copyright and you would have to ask her permission to use them in your portfolio. If this is the case you will lose in small claims court.
> 
> Keith, where are you when we you?!


Nope, she's still an independent contractor, so work for hire would not apply. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

What the OP doesn't seem to understand is that she is liable for more than just state and federal income taxes. Apparently she does not understand state sales and use taxes.
Whoever has been advising her is doing her a huge dis-service by not recommending she establish a legal business before she started charging. 

A few months back a lady started a thread because her town had caught her operating an unlicensed/unregistered business. The financial penalties and fines states demand when they don't get their sales tax monies alone can be very expensive.

Welcome to the Ohio Department of Taxation

Welcome to the Ohio Department of Taxation

Ohio Business Gateway | Starting a Business


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> I'm still in college so I don't have a studio or anything. I'm doing this to get my name out there which I've been told to do by a lot of people is okay I just have to do taxes or something for it since it's another source of income. *My teachers, other photographers *that I know said it is okay for me to charge, etc.



FYI-   My photography college professors say do NOT charge until license, tax ID, and insurance has been squared. They told us horror stories about those who have, matter of fact one was charged with a felony and a ton of fines. Matter of fact there is a whole course on that stuff, marketing, and the photog biz in general we have to take before becoming certified.


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## tirediron (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > In practical terms however, a verbal contract is generally worth exactly the same as the paper on which it is written.
> ...


Read it slowly; it means exactly what it says.


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Read it slowly; it means exactly what it says.



I can read no problem, but you miss the bigger point which is that oral contracts are legally enforceable.  You give the pedestrian answer.  I give the correct answer.


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## MLeeK (Jan 26, 2012)

I forgot to meniton before in here... You REALLY should look into becoming an "aspiring" member of PPA. The resources there are extensive-including contracts and other things. I know you're a starving college kid, but it's REALLY worth every penny of the $17 bucks a month Join PPA | Professional Photographers of America


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 26, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> I forgot to meniton before in here... You REALLY should look into becoming an "aspiring" member of PPA. The resources there are extensive-including contracts and other things. I know you're a starving college kid, but it's REALLY worth every penny of the $17 bucks a month Join PPA | Professional Photographers of America



Alright, I'll have to look into that and save up for it. but I will.


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## tirediron (Jan 26, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> I can read no problem, but you miss the bigger point which is that oral contracts are legally enforceable.  You give the pedestrian answer.  I give the correct answer.



I'm sorry, I though perhaps English was not your native tongue. I realize that a verbal contract may be enforceable, however, as I would have thought anyone educated in legal matters would understand, it can be very difficult (often to the point where exorbitant fees would outweigh any satisfaction) to prove a verbal contract. For a matter this small (financially, not importance) I can't imagine it being feasible to attempt.


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## cgipson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

tirediron said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta agree with Tirediron! I can just see it now 

Judge: Did you say that?
Person 1: No... I never said that.
Person 2: Yes she did...she's lying!
Person 1: Prove it! Nyahhh nyaahhh!!!
Judge: Dismissed.. you idiots are giving me a headache!


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## MLeeK (Jan 26, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > I forgot to meniton before in here... You REALLY should look into becoming an "aspiring" member of PPA. The resources there are extensive-including contracts and other things. I know you're a starving college kid, but it's REALLY worth every penny of the $17 bucks a month Join PPA | Professional Photographers of America
> ...


Surf around the public part of the website and forums over there. There is still a ton of information available to the public, there's just WAYYYYYY more on the inside. Like streets paved in gold more.


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## KmH (Jan 27, 2012)

$17 a month = skipping 2.5 Red Bulls a week.


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## gsgary (Jan 27, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> Sigh now she's saying she'll come to my parents house, where I don't live and it says on my page that is strictly for mail use only, and she will go there and if I'm not there Friday to give her the pictures that she paid for (which she already has them, I don't know what the hell she is talking about) then she'll call the police, file against me and take me to court. And if I'm not there, she will go to my work, which, she won't be allowed in anyways (work for newspaper company) you can only go in if it's about your papers or work there so....She can take me to court.
> I have documentation of everything we've talked about and saved it. Told her from the start $15 a picture, she's agreed to it, has even mentioned it through the attack 5 times...FIVE TIMES that she knows I charge $15 a picture...so why she is suing me in the first place? I have *no* idea....and it doesn't help that the lawyer is a family member of hers so it's a completely biased opinion on this now. Lost 3 followers because of this but live and learn.
> Wish me luck guys >_<




Delete all the photos then she gets **** all


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## Christie Photo (Jan 27, 2012)

Wow.  I read through the first page and skimmed the rest.  I took a look at the photos too.

This is one of the biggest non-issues I've ever heard.  You were just trying to help this lady with some photos.  You owe her nothing.  Tell the deal is off; that you're no longer willing to work with her.  You get no money and she gets no photographs.

I guarantee you the state is not interested in any sales tax here.

Don't be afraid of the words "law suit."  I would tell her, "Yes.  Perhaps that is the best way to handle it."  That will end there.

I really doubt she'll come around your home or workplace.  If she does, tell her she has to leave and call the police if she refuses.

The only real fallout will be her mouth, both locally and on the web.  You have nothing at stake.  No business rep to tarnish; no financial assets.

This will all quicly pass.

Good luck!

-Pete


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

Thank you all for the help. 
She did *NOT* show up yesterday. At my house or work. So I'm guessing maybe her husband talked some sense into her, cause he loved the pictures and still has then has his profile pic, she got rid of hers. Hahaha. 
One of the last things I told her was (not in these exact words) to forget it, I'm not giving you anymore pictures, I'm done with this conversation, tried to make a deal with you but you won't listen. And that's when she's kept saying she'll come over with the cops and stuff.
But since I don't know her, I don't know how she is or if she will come another day or if I will receive something in the mail for court. I showed my dad the conversation and he used to have his own business, he laughed and said she can't do anything, she has no ground to stand on. 
Now I'm prepared for future clients with the contracts, receipts, release forms, etc. Going to be getting a new camera once I've saved up for it (really need that) and a 60mm macro lens as well


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## MSnowy (Jan 28, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> memorishots said:
> 
> 
> > you have not paid taxes on your profit
> ...




One question. If you charge for your services and part of your service  is to supply pictures. Are you taxed on the sales of the individual  pictures or just the income from the service you provide? If just for  the service. Would that make the cost of the pictures part of your  supplies and there for a deduction.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jan 28, 2012)

MSnowy said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > memorishots said:
> ...




shhhhhh  I've done a few shoots and charged "just my expenses" because I'm in the process of making it all legal and another disclaimer is I'm still a student heh


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## Rephargotohp (Jan 28, 2012)

MSnowy said:


> One question. If you charge for your services and part of your service is to supply pictures. Are you taxed on the sales of the individual pictures or just the income from the service you provide? If just for the service. Would that make the cost of the pictures part of your supplies and there for a deduction.



I am assuming you are talking Income tax and not sales tax.

The entire amount is booked as Sales or Revenue and then depending on on your accounting method (Cash or Accrual) the cost of the prints (your costs not the customer's costs) are either booked as Cost of Good sold or as Business Expenses. which are subtracted from Gross Sales and after other business expenses give you Your net income which is taxable


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## Rephargotohp (Jan 28, 2012)

Also to clear up a few things about how much trouble she is in.
She probably doesn't owe any taxes if this was one of the few job she did and it's not April 15th so she still has time and hasn't broken any tax laws.

As Far as Sales tax, if she "Collected" sales tax and didn't remit it, she would be in trouble. If she didn't collect sales tax, in the state off Ohio it would then be up to the purchaser to submit it as a "Use" tax. Remember that business do not _pay_ sales that they merely act as a pass through agent for the state

This is not to say she doesn't need to fulfill certain legal obligations to operate as a business, but I doubt she is in big trouble as may have been suggested and I am not taking the onus off of her to do so


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## MSnowy (Jan 28, 2012)

Rephargotohp said:


> MSnowy said:
> 
> 
> > One question. If you charge for your services and part of your service is to supply pictures. Are you taxed on the sales of the individual pictures or just the income from the service you provide? If just for the service. Would that make the cost of the pictures part of your supplies and there for a deduction.
> ...



Ok A painter paints my house. He charges for his services and pays an income tax. Does he also pay a sales tax on the paint  when I pay him?


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## KmH (Jan 28, 2012)

Sales tax laws vary widely by state. Check what the rules are in your's.


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## Rephargotohp (Jan 28, 2012)

MSnowy said:


> Rephargotohp said:
> 
> 
> > MSnowy said:
> ...



As Kmh said, It varies by State whether Services are Taxed and also There are some services that are and some that aren't

In a lot of Cases BUT NOT ALL, since a Tangible product is attached to the service(the paint or a Print) The entire sale is subject to sales tax. (many states are all or nothing)

YOU would pay Sales tax on your purchase with the painter ( The PAINTER does NOT pay sales tax on the paint he purchased for the job since it is for resale") He does pass along the sales tax _you pa_yed to the state taxing authority.

That is what MAY happen depending on your state


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## MLeeK (Jan 28, 2012)

MSnowy said:


> Rephargotohp said:
> 
> 
> > MSnowy said:
> ...


Here: NO-it is a capital improvement on your home. The paint is only non-taxable as a capital improvement when it is "installed" for you by your painter who is a legitimate business. 
HOWEVER-if you go to the store and buy paint it is just paint, it's not installed in your home as an improvement so you pay sales tax. Confusing as sh!t right? Capital imporvements are one of the exceptions to the rule though. It's not that way with  many things. 
So if you had a painter paint your car-yes. It's all taxable. The service is a luxury service that is resulting in a tangible good. It's taxable. The paint is a tangible good. It's taxable. 

Now with photography where I am at if I sell any tangible good in the package deal the entire thing is taxable. However if I sell only the photographer service it is not taxable. If the client purchases a tangible good down the road, then that is taxable. 
HOWEVER... one of the previous states I lived in if the client purchased a tangible good down the road then they paid sales tax on the goods AND on the service because it resulted in a tangible good down the road... Try keeping that straight in the books. 
In some states a digital file sent via internet is NOT a tangible good. In some states it is. Any digital file put on a cd, jump drive, memory card... is a tangible good. 
IF you deliver something by drop ship out of state... they are supposed to pay the sales tax to their state (there's a place on most state income tax forms to pay any sales and use tax on goods bought out of state.) 
It's INCREDIBLY varied and an incredible PITA. If you are ever in doubt if something is taxable-just tax it. They don't complain when you overpay. But they get a little snippy when you underpay or don't pay.


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## lovemygsd5 (Jan 28, 2012)

I know you have had a ton of comments here and you probably have a lot of thoughts running through your mind. I worked for a professional photographer early on and learned all the important factors. I haven't read pages 3 and 4 so I may be repeating some posts. Remain professional at all times, no matter how difficult it is. Ask her what it will take to make her happy and just do it to get her out of her hair. Cut your losses and move on because she isn't worth the headache and aggravation. Draw up a statement stating what she agreed to settle for and have her sign it. Then good riddence. I bought the studio I worked for then and ran it until 2008 when the economy finally put me out of business. I will be glad to offer you advice if you wish (take it or leave it). I have been in the business now for 14 years photographing weddings, families, children, seniors and even photo restoration. I keep my license updated, I collect and pay sales tax every month. What is your major in college?


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 29, 2012)

I have done my taxes for 2011 from this shoot since it was done in December. She has been my first client so far so I have done taxes since they needed to be done by like end of January is what my dad told me. So that's taken care of. I did act professional all the way through with her even when she was cussing me out I was telling her, there's no need for that, I'm trying to work with you here. I cut ties with her. Since she didn't show up like she said she would, just wait and see if I get anything in the mail from her, which I doubt at this point. 
My major in college is a associates for art (don't know the correct terms for it off the top of my head) I plan to go to another college after I'm done at this one I'm at since it's a community college and have been told I should go somewhere else after.


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## MLeeK (Jan 29, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> I have done my taxes for 2011 from this shoot since it was done in December. She has been my first client so far so I have done taxes since they needed to be done by like end of January is what my dad told me. So that's taken care of. I did act professional all the way through with her even when she was cussing me out I was telling her, there's no need for that, I'm trying to work with you here. I cut ties with her. Since she didn't show up like she said she would, just wait and see if I get anything in the mail from her, which I doubt at this point.
> My major in college is a associates for art (don't know the correct terms for it off the top of my head) I plan to go to another college after I'm done at this one I'm at since it's a community college and have been told I should go somewhere else after.



You are still missing the point on taxes. It is NOTHING TO DO WITH INCOME TAXES!!! That which you did in december and January is income tax. This is not filed with income tax in any way, shape or form. It goes to the state and nowhere near where your state income tax goes.  This is TOTALLY different. Someone posted the links here. You need to find out what your college offers for the Small Business Association or the Small Business Development Corp. because I don't know how we can explain this any clearer to you. 
When you go to the store the tag says an item is $9.99. When you pay the bill at the check out counter it actually is $10.79. That extra 8%? THAT!!! You have to charge and pay sales tax on goods and services.


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## tirediron (Jan 29, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Kra_Ash said:
> 
> 
> > I have done my taxes for 2011 from this shoot since it was done in December. She has been my first client so far so I have done taxes since they needed to be done by like end of January is what my dad told me. So that's taken care of. I did act professional all the way through with her even when she was cussing me out I was telling her, there's no need for that, I'm trying to work with you here. I cut ties with her. Since she didn't show up like she said she would, just wait and see if I get anything in the mail from her, which I doubt at this point.
> ...



Never mind the minor issue in your OP, you need to learn business  and FAST if you're going to charge for your work.  Take down your  shingle, and put it away.  Go DIRECTLY to your local adult-ed/community  college/night school and enroll in any and all small  business/entrepreneurship courses they offer.  You might take fantastic  photos, but if you don't know one tax from the other, you're very likely  to wind up in a world of hurt sooner than later.


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## raider (Jan 29, 2012)

i think everyone is missing the core issue.  facebook photos are indicative of beginner level photos that should be priced rather low.  the customer may have had a valid complaint.  this happens way too little - no one wants to offend the 'photographer' by saying that they're not happy with their product.  most people don't know what makes a technically good photo, if they're in it they think its great.  if you're charging and offering professional services, there should be a minimum standard.  especially if the customer was expecting the quality of actual professional level photos.  and its obvious you jumped into 'business' waaay too soon.  i say take em all to court and thin the herd.  people are getting ripped off.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 29, 2012)

She got her 6 pictures. She's not getting anymore. I cut ties with her. I'm not going to bother with any court issues or anything unless something else happens.


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## lovemygsd5 (Jan 29, 2012)

Are you looking to pursue photography as a career or is it something to just something you plan to bring in some extra living expenses? If you get some decent training you can make a good amount of extra money. Also, take some business management classes to help you on that end. It is equally important. Always keep good records and all your sales receipts. I can help you with pricing, etc. Just let me know.


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## lovemygsd5 (Jan 30, 2012)

MSnowy, painter may pay sales tax when he purchases the paint, but doesn't charge you sales tax because hes providing a service to you. Sales tax isn't typically charged on service, justs goods. Now, he may pass the sales tax along to you by means of covering his cost. It may vary from state to state.


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 31, 2012)

lovemygsd5 said:
			
		

> Are you looking to pursue photography as a career or is it something to just something you plan to bring in some extra living expenses? If you get some decent training you can make a good amount of extra money. Also, take some business management classes to help you on that end. It is equally important. Always keep good records and all your sales receipts. I can help you with pricing, etc. Just let me know.



I plan on doing this as a career though my dad tho.is I should just do it as a hobby and says i won't go far with it -__- which sucks to hear from him but I'm doing what I want. 
And I will ask you when something else comes along, I have everything I need now and ill look into business classes for next semester.


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## tirediron (Jan 31, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> ...but I'm doing what I want...


:thumbup:  Good luck!


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## MLeeK (Jan 31, 2012)

Kra_Ash said:


> lovemygsd5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's just giving you the motivation to prove him wrong. Someday you can give him a great big "thank you."


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## Kra_Ash (Jan 31, 2012)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> He's just giving you the motivation to prove him wrong. Someday you can give him a great big "thank you."



I proved to him before twice that I'm not bad. I was o ly in my intro to digital photo and my college has a art show and they only pick 50 people to be in it and most of them were already graduating. And then how dodd camera has contests every month, not sure if its like that every where, but do pick certain pictures that are the best kind of subject and I was chosen for that as well. Got a 24x36 or something of a lion I took ad the prize. 
So I don't know, those are simple things nothing crazy but least I can say I've done that so far.


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## MLeeK (Jan 31, 2012)

Plan your shot... shoot your plan. 
Plan your future, then proceed to follow that plan and you'll succeed far beyond what you are at now!


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