# I love doing Black & White.but not always easy to decide when.



## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

but i find it very tricky that it just doesn't work all the time.. how can you look and realize it is the right time to go black and white or is it a quessing game and experiment.. thanks


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2019)

When a photo uses design elements or principles such as lines, shapes, textures, repetition, or value then oftentimes a black and white conversion looks pretty good.

I really like the way you have added the micro white border along with the black border in your last photo.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

Derrel said:


> When a photo uses design elements or principles such as lines, shapes, textures, repetition, or value then oftentimes a black and white conversion looks pretty good.
> 
> I really like the way you have added the micro white border along with the black border in your last photo.


very good advice Derrel... when you look at something you want to photo..{if they qualify with all the elements you mentioned}... do you know  automatically that it will be better in black and white..or is usually trail and error....just curious if you know  after you have been doing it awhile..


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2019)

Well I started with black and white and I shot 95% black and white for twenty years or so,so I am used to seeing things and how they will look as black and white. for the last 25 years or so I have been shooting color almost exclusively, and for the last 18 years or so I have been doing almost all digital which gives me the opportunity to shoot in color, but to make a black and white conversion with very little effort in only seconds. I often think "hey that would look good in black and white! " when I'm at the computer, and using Lightroom, I can look at the photo multiple ways in less than 5 minutes, and Since switching from Photoshop to Lightroom in 2012, I have become more and more interested in seeing how images look with various filter effects and black and white looks. I think that Lightroom makes very good black and white conversions, with a lot less effort, and with greater repeatability than the channel mixer approach ever did in Photoshop.


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## tirediron (Oct 12, 2019)

IMO, one of the keys to a good monochrome is exposure.  If you don't nail the exposure, it's only every going to be so-so.  I quite often just click the 'Black and White' selection in LR or PS to get an idea of what the image will look like as a monochrome...  sometimes it works and I process it, other times it doesn't.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

tirediron said:


> IMO, one of the keys to a good monochrome is exposure.  If you don't nail the exposure, it's only every going to be so-so.  I quite often just click the 'Black and White' selection in LR or PS to get an idea of what the image will look like as a monochrome...  sometimes it works and I process it, other times it doesn't.


thank you.... i appreciate your info..


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## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

Derrel said:


> Well I started with black and white and I shot 95% black and white for twenty years or so,so I am used to seeing things and how they will look as black and white. for the last 25 years or so I have been shooting color almost exclusively, and for the last 18 years or so I have been doing almost all digital which gives me the opportunity to shoot in color, but to make a black and white conversion with very little effort in only seconds. I often think "hey that would look good in black and white! " when I'm at the computer, and using Lightroom, I can look at the photo multiple ways in less than 5 minutes, and Since switching from Photoshop to Lightroom in 2012, I have become more and more interested in seeing how images look with various filter effects and black and white looks. I think that Lightroom makes very good black and white conversions, with a lot less effort, and with greater repeatability than the channel mixer approach ever did in Photoshop.


Derrel i appreciate you input.. i think i understand now that there is no one measure.. it takes practice.. and having a good soft ware program is a must.. i really enjoy B&W ..so thank you for the tips


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## Destin (Oct 12, 2019)

I rarely use black and white, and it's something I should probably start trying more often. I've always thought of black and white as a way to eliminate distracting color. If the colors in an image pull my eye away from what I want to be the focal point, I'll often convert to black and white. Also, as Darrel said above, anything with strong lines often works well in black and white. 

Here's the most recent example of this in my work to help show what I'm talking about. I apologize for the slightly different crops/edits.. I'm at work and don't have access to my LR catalog to make it a perfect comparison. 

1.) Original Color - I didn't like how the deep blue of the sky in the upper right pulled my eye away from the building. I also didn't like how the different color casts in the building moved my eye around more than the lines. The whole thing seemed muddy and overcomplicated. 





2.) Final Edit - BW - I like this better because it allows the lines to take charge. Color is not competing to pull your eye away from where the lines want it to go, and it allows the viewer to focus more on the geometric shapes without distraction





Hopefully this input is useful to someone. I probably have better examples from the past but this is what I had readily available.


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## Destin (Oct 12, 2019)

Also, black and white can be used to save images that are otherwise unusable. It's sort of a cheaters tactic, and some would frown upon it. I did it a lot when shooting weddings: dance floors have tons of multi colored lights from the DJ. This makes them extremely hard to shoot.

If someone was basked completely in bright red light it could totally ruin the photo, but a simple black and white conversion could easily save the image. It wouldn't be a masterpiece, but it would be deliverable.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

Destin said:


> I rarely use black and white, and it's something I should probably start trying more often. I've always thought of black and white as a way to eliminate distracting color. If the colors in an image pull my eye away from what I want to be the focal point, I'll often convert to black and white. Also, as Darrel said above, anything with strong lines often works well in black and white.
> 
> Here's the most recent example of this in my work to help show what I'm talking about. I apologize for the slightly different crops/edits.. I'm at work and don't have access to my LR catalog to make it a perfect comparison.
> 
> ...


wow yes... i understand... good reasons explained too.. thank you so much.. i really see the difference things you pointed out.. and how right you are.


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## smoke665 (Oct 12, 2019)

IMO I think simple compositions or those with strong elements like the above tend to make better B&W conversions. For example a single tree vs a forest, or an individual vs a crowd of people. Without color to provide some separation, multiple details similar in texture or structure tend to get lost in a gray scale image.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 12, 2019)

smoke665 said:


> IMO I think simple compositions or those with strong elements like the above tend to make better B&W conversions. For example a single tree vs a forest, or an individual vs a crowd of people. Without color to provide some separation, multiple details similar in texture or structure tend to get lost in a gray scale image.


yes.. you are right .. i can understand so much better now.. sometimes i feel like i am asking a silly question.. but you guys always make my silly question become important with your tips and logic.. There are so many aspics to everything involved with photography. .. okay everyone.. i have a better idea of what to do and what not to do with black and white photography now.. when color is out of whack.. when there are lines and shapes in repetition.. when there is more or less a singular subject.. thank you all so much.. i would have never thought of all this on my own..


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## Grandpa Ron (Oct 14, 2019)

I sort  photos by subject. Alaska trip, festivals, dog etc.

Sub folders by location, Fairbanks, Seward, cannery, fish nets etc.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 14, 2019)

Grandpa Ron said:


> I sort  photos by subject. Alaska trip, festivals, dog etc.
> 
> Sub folders by location, Fairbanks, Seward, cannery, fish nets etc.


thats good idea.. i better start getting more organized..


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## texxter (Oct 14, 2019)




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## Photo Lady (Oct 14, 2019)

texxter said:


>


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## Photo Lady (Oct 14, 2019)

thank you...good info ..very interesting ..


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## johngpt (Oct 15, 2019)

Depending upon which apps one uses for editing, it can be seen quickly if an image has potential for b/w conversion.
For example Lightroom in its Develop module has an option to click upon which converts the image to b/w and then one can quickly use the sliders to see if it has potential.
In Photoshop, one can look at the Channels panel and look at the Red, Green and Blue channels individually. Often that gives a very useful idea whether an image has potential.

As others before have said, prior to shooting or as one is shooting, paying attention to line, shape and contrast can help one decide if scene and subject might have potential for b/w. That said, it can be difficult to know how color will be "seen" by our sensors and looking at RGB channels in Ps or the Develop module in Lr afterward can confirm potential.

.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 15, 2019)

johngpt said:


> Depending upon which apps one uses for editing, it can be seen quickly if an image has potential for b/w conversion.
> For example Lightroom in its Develop module has an option to click upon which converts the image to b/w and then one can quickly use the sliders to see if it has potential.
> In Photoshop, one can look at the Channels panel and look at the Red, Green and Blue channels individually. Often that gives a very useful idea whether an image has potential.
> 
> ...


Thank you John.. i did these today.. i thought the look pretty good for practice


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## Grandpa Ron (Oct 16, 2019)

While all of the above comments are true and indeed necessary for a great competition black and white photos these days.  I find the biggest advantage of black and white is simply the absence of color. This causes the viewer to look at the subject of the picture, without being distracted by the color.

When you look at old civil war pictures, or Victorian era photos, are you really distracted by the lack of color or the other techniques we now use judge photos?

Most old photos were not shot to win photographic awards, they were shot to capture a subject; like life in the old west, railroads, the Eiffel Tower, aircraft etc. Again, when we view these, are we really distracted by lack of texture, etc.

Personally, though some black and white scenes just jump out to me, usually I shoot in color then convert to B&W. I do not try to judge which is best, color of B&W, that is somewhat like saying and apple is better than and orange. I just ask does the B&W photo capture the moment. If yes than I can tweak the exposure.

I think the latest submissions by Photo Lady are an excellent example. A great balance between subject and technique.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 16, 2019)

thank you Grandpa Ron.. i am really getting all this advise to sink in..obviously the choices i make make all the difference.. you have helped so much.. i appreciate it


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## joecrumley2 (Oct 17, 2019)

It's not necessary to pre-visualize but one can tell right up front when it's going on. Looking through a bunch of color shots with little or no understanding of how the images are made is a pure novice situation. As Eileen said, in her early days, shooting B&W, she had trained herself to see in black and white. Since I shoot only B&W that's the way I see. It's true one can shuffle around and find a good non color photo by a roll of the dice, but it will seldom have the power of good visual integrity.. 

One of the big disadvantages today are the intense colors rendered by SLR's. It's easy to fall in love with the brilliant color scenes a TLR renders. Even when there's no reason to press the shutter. We easily forget about layout and design, the fundamentals. Without mentally being able to visualize in B&W one is guessing. Then, looking over one's photo's trying to tease out an image isn't correct. That's often the way it's done today.
Joe


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## Original katomi (Oct 17, 2019)

Part of the problem now with b&w vs colour is expections 
The world around is designed to capture our eye and like when fabric colours changed when homes moved from gas light to electric colours in our city’s and town have /are changing with the change in lighting. There are few places left that are still lit with furosecent or tungsten lighting, the modern lights are more blue or cooler
Displays take advantage of this and humans as a group are being led to expect to see colour(s) photographers and oddly colour blind people are in the main the ones who really look at is there.
A classic example here in UK is the filter lane. Set of lights for main and set for filter lane. I have seen so many drives make a start because they saw the green and had not always paid attention to which lane it applied to


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## smoke665 (Oct 17, 2019)

As several have mentioned, good B&W conversions are highly dependent on the colors, as different colors reflect light differently.  Here's a good article Converting a Digital Color Photo into Black and White in particular look at the image examples and click on the tabs to see the effect color filters have on the conversion. Also may I recommend the book The Photographic Eye: Learning to See with a Camera by Michael O'Brien: Used 9780871922830 | eBay it explains in detail many of the successful elements of a good composition.


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## Photo Lady (Oct 17, 2019)

joecrumley2 said:


> It's not necessary to pre-visualize but one can tell right up front when it's going on. Looking through a bunch of color shots with little or no understanding of how the images are made is a pure novice situation. As Eileen said, in her early days, shooting B&W, she had trained herself to see in black and white. Since I shoot only B&W that's the way I see. It's true one can shuffle around and find a good non color photo by a roll of the dice, but it will seldom have the power of good visual integrity..
> 
> One of the big disadvantages today are the intense colors rendered by SLR's. It's easy to fall in love with the brilliant color scenes a TLR renders. Even when there's no reason to press the shutter. We easily forget about layout and design, the fundamentals. Without mentally being able to visualize in B&W one is guessing. Then, looking over one's photo's trying to tease out an image isn't correct. That's often the way it's done today.
> Joe


i love your explanation.. very interesting concept.. so many good pointers from all of you...


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## Photo Lady (Oct 17, 2019)

Grandpa Ron said:


> While all of the above comments are true and indeed necessary for a great competition black and white photos these days.  I find the biggest advantage of black and white is simply the absence of color. This causes the viewer to look at the subject of the picture, without being distracted by the color.
> 
> When you look at old civil war pictures, or Victorian era photos, are you really distracted by the lack of color or the other techniques we now use judge photos?
> 
> ...


oh i do agree with you.. very good points made... we are so spoiled ..


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## Photo Lady (Oct 17, 2019)

smoke665 said:


> As several have mentioned, good B&W conversions are highly dependent on the colors, as different colors reflect light differently.  Here's a good article Converting a Digital Color Photo into Black and White in particular look at the image examples and click on the tabs to see the effect color filters have on the conversion. Also may I recommend the book The Photographic Eye: Learning to See with a Camera by Michael O'Brien: Used 9780871922830 | eBay it explains in detail many of the successful elements of a good composition.


thanks so much.. i will look into these links and the book.. i appreciate your help..all of you have been so interesting in your details


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## Original katomi (Oct 17, 2019)

A couple of my b&w images. These I could see  as b&w


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## Photo Lady (Oct 20, 2019)

Original katomi said:


> A couple of my b&w images. These I could see  as b&wView attachment 180913View attachment 180914


oh they are gorgeous.......... thank you for sharing


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