# Tap water



## Josh66 (Dec 14, 2011)

Could tap water cause developer to exhaust quickly after being mixed?  Like, minerals in the water or something?

I seem to be having a lot of problems lately that I've never had before.  The only thing I can think of is that my water is bad all of a sudden (I know they do change up the chemicals and/or amounts they use to purify it every now and then).  I've tried everything else.  All of my chemicals are fresh.  I'm doing everything the same as I always have, and am just now having problems.

I have only been using distilled water for the final rinse in Photo Flo, but now I'm thinking that I may have to start using it for everything...  I developed a roll of T-Max 100 (35mm) today in Rodinal (1+100, 1 hour stand) - I _did_ use distilled water for that and it looks perfect.


Yesterday (edit - no, that was this morning...), though - I developed a roll of Acros (120) in HC-110 (B) using tap water, and I didn't even bother rinsing it, it was so bad.  It went straight to the trash can.  I have shot a lot of Acros, and used a lot of HC-110 before.  I know it's not something I'm doing different than usual...


I mainly use Rodinal and HC-110, and sometimes Xtol.  I have had issues (_very_ thin negs) with all three recently, on multiple films in both 35mm and 120.  The problem does seem worse on 120 though - I'm thinking that's just because the film is bigger.  The Xtol is the only one that's mixed into a working solution, so I'm kinda scared to use it now, lol.  I considered dumping it and buying a new kit (only $10).

Just to be safe, it's distilled water only from here out.  I'll do more testing tomorrow to see if that fixes anything.

I just wanted to check if the tap water even can kill or greatly reduce the strength of a developer before I do too many more test rolls.  I mean, is that even possible?  I have never had issues using tap water before, but I don't know what else it could be...
Throwing film in the trash is getting old.


Just because I know someone will ask - it is not a metering problem.  I'm using three different cameras, all of which have a meter, plus a hand-held light meter.  All 4 meters are consistent with each other.

If it is the water, should I be worried (about drinking it, I mean)?  What could be in it that would exhaust a developer?


----------



## ann (Dec 15, 2011)

It would be unusual, but stranger things happen.  

I have used distilled water for toners and with LPN for the final rinse.

THe content of iron can effect the contrast and years ago when people moved from location to location they would find issues.

Whether this is urban myth or not, i have seen written accounts of people in the same city doing test with HC110 with the result varying. Supposely the only difference was the mileage between the testers.

Perhaps Helen will drop by and enlighten us both


----------



## KenC (Dec 15, 2011)

I used the tap water in my house in NJ for years without any problem, and I know it was loaded with iron and chlorine (at least), and also was hard for a while until we got a water softener.  I wouldn't drink it, but it didn't seem to affect the developers (HC110, TMax, D76).


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 15, 2011)

The only other thing I can think of if it isn't the tap water is that something in the water heater is leaching into the water.  It's cooling down now, so I've been having to mix in a little hot water to get to 20 degrees.

In the summer I have to use refrigerated water and wait for it to warm up.  I didn't have any issues then.  But, I didn't have any issues last winter either using the hot water...

I'm going to develop one more roll (Rollei Retro 400S in 120) today using distilled water.  If that works, it will pretty much be proof to me that something is up with my water.  If it doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do, lol.


----------



## ann (Dec 15, 2011)

Let us know what happens. 

Never had that come up in my darkroom or the one at school. However, gremlins do run amuck in the darkroom at times, and it is a mystery, but that has always been with printing and in a gang darkroom 'who knows" .  I do try to run a tight ship at school, but I don't stand there and watch every move students are making.


----------



## compur (Dec 15, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Could tap water cause developer to exhaust quickly after being mixed?  Like, minerals in the water or something?
> 
> I seem to be having a lot of problems lately that I've never had before.  The only thing I can think of is that my water is bad all of a sudden ...



By any chance do you have one of these aerator gadgets on your tap water faucet? 







They add oxygen to the water.  Oxygen kills developers.


----------



## Derrel (Dec 15, 2011)

What was wrong with the roll developed in HC-110??? I mean, what was the flaw?

I have developed literally thousands of rolls in HC-110 for personal and newspaper use, usually twelve rolls per shift, sometimes 16 rolls, sometimes 20...the keys to HC-110 are precise and accurate mixing, careful attention to timing, and making sure that the normal time/temperature lends itself to consistent results in the darkroom one is using. HC-110 "syrup" is highly concentrated stuff...how it is measured and mixed can have an impact on its actual strength...and short development times in HC-110 are a recipe for inconsistent results.

What methods were you using when this massive fail-boat pulled into the dock???


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 15, 2011)

Hmm...  I think I do.  That _could_ explain it...

I wonder why I didn't have problems last winter though...?
Ah.  Just had an idea.  Last winter I was mixing the HC-110 into a stock solution, and diluting that.  So, the volume of water I was using from the tap was less.  I'm mixing it from concentrate now, so it's been almost all tap water.  I didn't start using Rodinal till around June (like it a lot so far though), so I was using water from a bottle in the fridge then.

After I eat something for lunch, I'm going to develop that roll of Rollei Retro (with distilled water).  If that looks fine, I think you might be onto something with the aerator.


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 15, 2011)

Derrel said:


> What was wrong with the roll developed in HC-110??? I mean, what was the flaw?


It was super thin.  I don't have a densitometer or anything, but they were too thin to scan, and looked very thin to the eye.  Not quite clear, but close.

I've been doing everything the same as always - the only variable I can see is the tap water and/or mixing hot & cold tap water...

Mixing from concentrate using a 10mL syringe (with 0.2mL graduations) to measure.  And the same method was working fine with cold water from the fridge.


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 15, 2011)

OK, so I ended up putting it in Xtol 1+1 (15 minutes - it called for 17 minutes at 20 degrees, mine was 22.5 degrees so I just guessed and took off 2 minutes) instead of Rodinal.  I used distilled water, and from what I can tell it looks fine.  It's rinsing now.  I'll hang it up to dry in about 10 minutes.

edit
Drying now.  Looks fine.  I had some pretty serious issues with this combination last time I tried it (a few weeks ago) - you could barely see the edge of the frames.  There wasn't a single usable frame that time, so I just threw it away.  Much better this time.
I'll do the next roll in HC-110 with distilled water to make sure that's fine too.

edit
Just did another roll in HC-110.  It looks fine too.


I guess that means that there is something up with my water.  Either the aerator, or something else...  Oh well, I think I'm going to just use distilled water from now on anyway.


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 23, 2011)

This is what Pete V. at Kodak told me:



> Generally, if the water is safe for drinking, it should be  safe for photographic use. There are practical limits for water purity  for photographic use and these are as follows:
> 
> 
> Color and suspended matter: none by appearance
> ...



I know the water plant here changes chlorine levels sometimes as the incoming (to the plant) water quality changes.  Not sure what it is now though...  Not sure if chlorine specifically is the problem (that's just the only one on the list that I know for a fact changes periodically).  I am sure that the tap water IS the problem though.  Distilled water fixed all of my problems.  I doubt that it's the aerator, because if it was it would have given me problems before now (it's always been there).

Just thought I would post the safe levels for photographic use in case anybody was interested.


----------



## ann (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks for the update.

I have heard stories about the water changing within the same city but miles apart that seem to be responsible for differences in development, but thought perhaps it was an urban myth thingy.


----------



## DannyD (Dec 24, 2011)

ann said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> I have heard stories about the water changing within the same city but miles apart that seem to be responsible for differences in development, but thought perhaps it was an urban myth thingy.



My experience is the same. I have never seen problems using tap water for preparing developpers.


----------



## Cruzingoose (Dec 26, 2011)

When I first moved to SD a few yesrs ago and got my darkroom up and running, I was absolutely at a loss as to the inability to have B&W, C-41 or RA4 developers work. My film and paper would come out with only the slightest hint of an image. I figured my stock just did not make the move from the East coast and spoiled for some reason. I bought fresh chems and paper and still no good. After hours of disgust, I fired up the distiller and made some water. Extra careful measuring from new chems and fresh paper and all was beautiful and working well. Retried "city water" and nothing again. Same chems and paper but no images. 

So now I run my Midi-Still and make a 5 gallon batch of water, stored in an antique glass water cooler jug and mix my developers using this water. It seems that there is no effect on stop, bleach or fixer using city water. The only water test I have done is the test strip from the local Culligan Guy. Ph is 9+, Off the scale in mineral content, but not hard water as bar soap foams up just fine. No trace of chlorine or flouride or VOCs. And the funny thing is, the water taste good. 

Bottled steam distilled water is easily available and if used just for developers is cost effective. I live on the great prarie miles from nowhere so it is cheaper to make my own.


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 26, 2011)

Cruzingoose said:


> My film and paper would come out with only the slightest hint of an image.


That's exactly what was happening to me.  The change seems to have happened recently though - it wasn't always like that.  I have a batch of Xtol that I've been scared to use since I mixed it with tap water.  I don't know if that was before or after the water changed though.

I have been meaning to test it, but don't want to sacrifice a roll for it (if I had any bulk film left, I would load up a couple 12 exposure rolls).  I think I'll put a leader in it and see how long it takes to turn black.  I think I read somewhere that a good starting time is 3 times the time to turn a leader black.  Does that sound right?


----------



## maris (Dec 26, 2011)

I have only used tap water for darkroom work in many places, at many times, over the last five decades. There have been problems from time to time but none of them traceable to tap water. My present 1.6 litre batch of Xtol (replenisher system) is five years old, had hundreds of rolls and sheets of film through it, and works reliably and predictably. Only tap water has been used for mixing the replenisher.


----------



## Josh66 (Dec 26, 2011)

Until now, I have only used tap water too.  What can I say ... it just stopped working one day.  I don't know if it's chlorine, the pH, copper, or whatever else it could be...  I haven't had the water tested yet, but it's pretty clear to me that the water is the problem.  Just like Cruzingoose, it just didn't work.  Tap water was working fine, then I couldn't develop anything with it so I tried distilled water.  That worked fine.  Tried tap water again just to make sure I wasn't crazy, got the same results again...  I've been using distilled water since and haven't had a single issue...

After Pete from Kodak said that generally, if it's safe to drink, it's safe for film - I'm wondering if my tap water is safe to drink.


----------



## ann (Dec 27, 2011)

gosh, it's photography fun.  Many times the gremlins invade the darkroom and drive us crazy. However, it appears you have taken the proper steps in figuring out what is happening but it isn't fun to discover its the water of all things.

When I moved from St. Louis to Atlanta many years ago, I ran a couple of test to be sure my development times would be the same. Luckily that happen to be the case; however, I was prepared for a huge difference, especially with regard to contrast.


----------



## DannyD (Dec 27, 2011)

I would not recommend distilled water for developpers ! The distilled water pH is acid (5 to 5.5) because of the chemical reaction between carbon dioxid and distilled water. Since developpers are Alkalis, they don't like to be mixed with an acid.

The best water for developpers is usually tap water. If it doesn't work, use some drinking water sold in plastic bottles. It's cheaper than distilled water and the pH is really neutral (7).


----------



## Cruzingoose (Jan 2, 2012)

DannyD said:


> I would not recommend distilled water for developpers ! The distilled water pH is acid (5 to 5.5) because of the chemical reaction between carbon dioxid and distilled water. Since developpers are Alkalis, they don't like to be mixed with an acid.The best water for developpers is usually tap water. If it doesn't work, use some drinking water sold in plastic bottles. It's cheaper than distilled water and the pH is really neutral (7).


Just tested some of my homemade steam distilled water and the test strip indicated a 7.2 while the water from the dehumidifier measures a 7.8.  I guess it all depends on what you start off with. Our local WallyMart has steam distilled water for 79 cents a gallon. But even if it is a buck a gallon and used for mixing developer only it is still a better and more consistant "solution" to the problem.


----------



## DannyD (Jan 2, 2012)

What you said is very interesting. Usually, distilled water is acid (ph = 5) after a while because of this : 



> Distilled water ideally consists  of only hydrogen and oxygen, with a completely neutral pH of 7. In  reality, it almost always is slightly acidic, from 5.6 to just under 7,  because the water absorbs carbon dioxide from the air. *A gallon of  distilled water can be made neutral by adding 1/8 tsp. of baking soda, a  substance with a pH of 8*.



and here : 



> Pure water has pH 7, so still, freshly distilled water should have a pH  of 7.0. However, interaction with the atmosphere allows carbon dioxide  to dissolve into it, forming carbonic acid. As a result, agitating the  water or allowing it to sit for a while will leave you with an aqueous  solution that drifts down in pH. Because there are no natural buffers in  distilled water, the pH can go down as low as 5.0.



I can say that Distilled water sold in stores is already stabilized. There is no problem using it. 




> Our local WallyMart has steam distilled water for 79 cents a gallon.



Simply amazing ! Here in europe, you will pay $25 (19 euros) for 5 liters... 

According to this, Distilled water for developping may be a good solution. ​


----------



## Josh66 (Jan 2, 2012)

DannyD said:


> Simply amazing ! Here in europe, you will pay $25 (19 euros) for 5 liters...


Wow.  That's insane.  Distilled water is $0.84 per gallon (3.78L) at my local Walmart.


----------



## DannyD (Jan 2, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> DannyD said:
> 
> 
> > Simply amazing ! Here in europe, you will pay $25 (19 euros) for 5 liters...
> ...



That's europe : low incomes, high prices ! 

Distilled water : Eau distillée, stérile by: AGUETTANT - www.socimed.com - Vente de
This one is for medical and healthcare, sterile. A real distilled water. 

An alternative is "demineralized" water. It's cheaper and sold for steam irons, steam household cleaners, etc... But not so pure than distilled water
Bidon 5 litres eau déminéralisée - RueDuCommerce

It's cheaper, but pricey :  $7,45 for 5 liters, wich means $5,63 for a Gallon ! 

Who said everything was cheaper in Europe ? Not me !


----------



## Helen B (Jan 2, 2012)

If distilled or deionised (DI) water is available locally and cheaply I  always use it for making up developers. I've had problems with tap water  in some parts of the world so I reckon that if it is an easy, cheap  potential problem to avoid, I avoid it.  In the professional still and  motion picture labs I have worked in we always used DI water. It  shouldn't matter too much with prepared Kodak developers - they are  generally well buffered and contain a sequestering agent, though iron  can be a problem with Xtol. I've never had a problem with the pH of  distilled water - the stuff you buy isn't pure water, by the way (unless  you buy it from a nuclear power plant of course). The simple jug-type  water filters usually use some kind of ion exchange resin which is cheap  and works OK for small daily volumes.


----------



## DannyD (Jan 2, 2012)

Helen B said:


> I've never had a problem with the pH of  distilled water - the stuff you buy isn't pure water, by the way (unless  you buy it from a nuclear power plant of course).



You woke up the scientist I used to be (Chemistry Teacher). 

Pure water (not specially used in Nuclear plants, we can find it in schools and Pharmaceutical industry, even you local Pharmacist uses it) is lightly acid vith a pH around 5.5 due to CO2 dissolving in pure water, leading to a chemical reaction resulting into Carbonic Acid


2 H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + CO[SUB]2[/SUB] --> H[SUB]2[/SUB]O + H[SUB]2[/SUB]CO[SUB]3[/SUB] (Carbonic Acid) 

That's the reason why schools uses a special distilled water (Buffered) with a neutral pH for some lessons (Chemistry labs with low concentrations). 

Sounds logical there is no problem with the pH of distilled water if you're using a buffered distilled water with a pH of 7...


----------



## Cruzingoose (Jan 4, 2012)

Perhaps the pH changes with time after the water is distilled from steam, and if it does, I never noticed it. My water from deep underground may not have a lot of disolved CO2 it. and with a pH of 9+ before distilling, moving a few points to 7 indicates it does lean to acid. I imaging the recovered water from the dehumidifier is slightly more alkaline because of the alkaline dust in the air here on the Prarie. I know the dirt here is very alkaline because it turns white around dried ponds and battery acid (H2SO4) poured on it (to kill weeds), foams up nicely. 

Either way, anything that eliminates a variable and improves consistancy is good.


----------



## Josh66 (Jan 4, 2012)

I'll have to get some test strips and see what mine is...  Not really worried about it, but I'm curious now.


----------



## ann (Jan 4, 2012)

Some place hiding in the darkroom is a device I used off and on for measuring the ph of the water. Used it mainly for alternative processes. Haven't used it a long time.  As I remember it wasn't expensive.


----------



## KenC (Jan 4, 2012)

Try gardening supply places - some gardeners are obsessed with pH and use aluminum sulfate or lime to lower or raise soil pH, respectively - they usually sell pH paper or other measuring devices.


----------



## Helen B (Jan 4, 2012)

DannyD said:


> Pure water (not specially used in Nuclear plants, we can find it in  schools and Pharmaceutical industry, even you local Pharmacist uses it)  ...



When I mentioned pure water and nuclear power plants  in my 'by the way' I was referring to the purity. It is very unlikely  that the water used in a school lab or by a pharmacist really is pure  water and only water - that stuff is difficult to make and it is also  difficult to contain for any length of time. Why would a pharmacist use  0.055 µS/cm water when the standard is about 1.3 µS/cm (referred to in  the pharma industry standards as 'purified water', not 'pure water'  which is the next higher grade)? Most of us can settle for water which  is less than pure.

If you are worried about using distilled water  because it has a pH of less than 7 then ask yourself whether or not  there is a significant difference at equilibrium between solutions made  with distilled water and good quality tap water. Why should there be  significantly more carbonic acid in the distilled water solution than in  the tap water solution? The use of distilled water is recommended in a  number of photographic chemistry reference books, including the popular  Film Developing Cookbook, and it is specified in some method statements  for labs processing archival materials.

Best,
Helen


----------



## DannyD (Jan 4, 2012)

Helen, 

I've never seen anyone having problems using tap water in Europe and several French or Belgian reference books just mention "Water" for preparing developpers... 

It's not the same in the USA and i'm just asking a question : Why ? 

Maybe it's because a lot of French areas have a high quality mineral water ? (Perfect for preparing the Kodak D76) 
Maybe your US reglementations about drinkable tap water involves some additives ? 

I don't know, but I want to know. 

Any information will be appreciated !


----------



## Ed Bray (Apr 28, 2012)

I have been reading this thread with some interest as I am the Asset Manager of 7 Water Treatment Works within the South West of England. The chemicals used in the treatment from each varies from site to site dependant on the quality of the source water and occasionally on the time of year. Strangely, it is easier to treat dirtier Raw water than it is very clean Raw water. 

There are two basic means of making water Potable (safe to drink) and they are pretty similar across the world (of course there are other methods of treatment too (such as membrane, reverse osmosis, ultra violet and ion exchange), regardless of the chemicals used, the RAW water coming into a works is initially dosed with a PH correctant, this can be Alkaline (lime, Custic Soda, Soda Ash) or Acid (Sulphuric usually) which is needed to change the Ph to a level where flocculation can take place when a suitable flocculant (Aluminium Sulphate, PolyAluminium Chloride, Ferrous Oxide and others) is added.

At the correct Ph the flocculant is able to form a floc (positively charged molecules), this Floc is designed to take out many of the impurities in water such as Turbidity & Colour (which are typically negatively charged) and particulates larger than 2 microns in size such as a Cryptosporidium Oocyst. The Floc is then either, settled by creating a blanket with the addition of a polymer which aids the floc particles into sticking together or scraped off the surface of the water as a scum by the means of dissolved air floatation, these processes are known as the clarification stage of the process. 

The next stage of the process is the filtration process and the water is then passed though either a slow sand filter or a rapid gravity filter, this takes out any further particulates.

Up to this point the water has not been treated to remove any bacterial content and traditionally there are three ways to do this, they are to a) Superchlorinate (using chlorine gas, sodium hypochlorite with a further stage of Dechlorination (using Sulpher Dioxide or Sodium Bisulphite) to reduce the amount of disinfectant remaining, b) 'Break point' or 'marginal chlorination' where the water is treated with enough disinfectant to ensure that after an ECT (effective contact time) there will have been a 100% 'kill' with some disinfectant left to carry through the distribution network and c) Ozone, this is a very good treatment as ozone will immediately kill any organic matter it comes into contact with (if you see the blue gas, it will be the last thing you see), but it is a very volatile substance and has the disadvantage that it does not leave a residue to carry through the distribution network so still needs some other form of disinfectant to be added.

At this point the water would have been treated chemically and biologically to produce a neutral and wholesome tap water fit for consumption.

*Now we come to the bits that effect us as photographers, the additives:
*
Depending on where you live in the world, some or all of these chemicals will be added to the water at the treatment works before it leaves:

There will be level of residual Chlorine which will continue disinfection whilst the water travels through the distribution network.

Ph correction, this is almost always an *alkaline added to take the Ph up to a value of between 8 and 9*, this will surprise many people but there is a good reason for this, it is less corrosive to the large network of pipes and fittings in the distribution network that brings the water to your taps.

Phosphoric Acid, if added, it is before the PH correction stage as dosing it afterwards would negate the correction previously added. This is added to the water to prevent 'plumbosolvency' lead (poisonous heavy metal) leaching from lead pipes in older distribution networks and private service pipes.

Flourine, can be added to the water in many countries to prevent tooth decay.

Additives that may be added during the path through distribution:

Chlorine dosing at service reservoirs (this can be to lift the level of the residual in long runs)

Calgon dosing. this was commonly used to prevent corrosion is systems that were prone to corrosion and in effect lined the pipes.


Previous to my working in the Water Industry I was in Health Physics within the local Nuclear Base. We were only allowed to use 'De-mineralised' water not distilled (2 completely different things) on or in any of the nuclear plant.

Personally I use distilled water for my developer and my wetting agent, everything else is diluted with tap water.

Hope this is of some use.


----------



## Josh66 (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks for the detailed reply, Ed.

Since starting this thread, I have been using distilled water for everything but the wash.  I have read that tap water (even if it's bad for developer) should be fine for fixer and stop bath though.  Since both of those last a long time, and distilled water is cheap - I use it for them too.

I haven't tried going back to tap water to see if the issues I was having came back, and out water supply very well could have gone back to how it was before by now - but I'll keep using distilled water just to be safe.  It costs about $0.80/Gallon here, so it's not a big deal.

edit
I _should_ try tap water again, now that's it's warm again (just as an experiment - not planning on switching back to it).  I have a feeling that the problems might have been from mixing hot and cold tap water.  Like, there was something in my water heater leaching into the hot water (copper, sediment, something else?).  (But then why wasn't that a problem before?  ...Maybe it just took a while to build up to a 'dangerous' level...?)


----------

