# How Much Do You Really Know



## pbelarge (May 8, 2010)

I am new to photography, so I am also new to photographic related software.

After too much research, I have decided on a few programs to use. All of this is really quite overwhelming.

I like what I have seen with LR2, and I am on LR2.7. I also downloaded the NIK series of plug-ins. (I also have PSE8, Photomatix pro 3.2)

Needless to say, I get lost more than I care to say. 

I have LR2 books
I have LR2 tutorials saved as favorites
I have LR2 sites saved as favorites.

I am starting to use the program and I realize after viewing the tuts and videos and reading that I really need to just use the program and see what is what.




My real question is,

How much do you really know about the software you are using?


----------



## GeneralBenson (May 8, 2010)

Doesn't seem like a post for the Beyond the Basics section, but to answer you're question, I know as much as a I need to know.  I know quite a bit in Lr and not much is PS when compared to the grand scale of what can be known about PS.  I know what I need to know, to get done what I need to know, and if I need to know something else, I learn it.  LR is big in it's own right, but PS is massive.  Knowing everything in both of them would not only be unrealistic and unneeded, but also likely impossible.  Learn what you need to know.


----------



## magkelly (May 8, 2010)

In terms of digital imaging quite a bit. I've taken quite a few books and taken several certificate courses in using Photoshop up through CS1. (I've been tinkering with it since V4.) Admittedly I probably know more Photoshop at this point than I do about some aspects of photo taking technique.

I'm however not above admitting I'm perfectly capable of being an idiot about it. I have always had a probably bad habit of just jumping in and using graphics applications and taking it all for granted that I can. Until recently I never really paid too much attention to anything but the main application in Photoshop. I never did get around to using Bridge or Camera Raw properly which was very wrong of me. I'm now in the middle of viewing some video tutorials on them and finally learning to respect those additional applications for what they can do. 

There was much to be learned there and far more utility to those parts of Photoshop than I ever realized. Having learned a bit more about both I'm now feeling properly chastened and vowing to myself to shoot only in RAW from now on even if it does mean changing out the memory cards every 10 minutes!

My camera only takes up to 2 GB cards and actually most of mine are still 512 MB ones. I really do need to go grab me a few 2 GB cards on Amazon if I am going to shoot in RAW all the time.


----------



## Vautrin (May 8, 2010)

There is probably more raw knowledge out there about computer programs related to photography then you could digest in your lifetime.

I think the key to remember is that most of these programs are designed for such a broad audience that you'll never know and understand how to use *EVERY* feature.  

Just take it slow, pick up knowledge where you can, and if you find something cool to help you out, use it.  Otherwise don't focus on learning everything...


----------



## mdtusz (May 8, 2010)

I think one of the most important things to learn on programs like Aperture, LR, and PS is shortcuts. I have almost every keyboard shortcut for Aperture memorized at this point and use most of them every time I open the program.

As far as photoshop goes, I think nobody knows half as much as they think they do about it. It's such a powerful program that is probably never harnessed to it's potential by any one person.


----------



## Vinny (May 8, 2010)

I think that as you said - you need to use the program. Read the instructions to get familiar with the program but I would "learn as you go" and learn the program in small bites. Make a project out of something (dodging and burning) and play around with photos until you feel you know enough how to use that particular section. Move onto something until you feel confident in doing that task and so on.

With on-line tutorial for Print Shop or whatever if you get stuck you can view them and try to duplicate it on your program. I bought the Serif photo software and what I described to you above is what I am doing. I'm not great at any of the tasks I tried but hopefully will get better.


----------



## magkelly (May 8, 2010)

I swear sometimes I think I must be the only serious Photoshop user on the planet who loathes keyboard shortcuts and who will only use those that are absolutely necessary! 

I was just watching a new Lynda tutorial on CS5 the other night? Every other second they're using a keyboard shortcut that takes twice as much time than just using the freakin mouse to click off an arrow in a box or something! It was a great tutorial otherwise but they about drove me nuts watching them mentioning them all! 

My teachers in school, same deal, all of them continually harped on using those keyboard shortcuts too. I did it because they insisted, but honestly remembering and using them all just slows me down. I just cannot get my head around how is it even vaguely helpful to use all those shortcuts when you can usually do the very same thing with click of a mouse in no time flat!

To each person their own, but I have almost no use for them at all.

Makes me laugh though when I read people raving about them. 

Clearly I am missing something about the charm using of keyboard shortcuts!


----------



## usayit (May 8, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> How much do you really know about the software you are using?



LR2 user here...

Its only overwhelming if your goal is to learn "everything" there is about the application.  I focused on learning just enough to complete my workflow and refocus what little time I have to elsewhere.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 8, 2010)

Software is the new darkroom. Few people were masters in the darkroom, some were adequate enough to get a half decent print and most were somewhere in the middle.

It will be the same with software. Where you end up depends in large part on your own desire or not to spend the time to learn but also on what quality images you need to satisfy you as well as how much manipulation the images in your mind require.

I am not Ansel Adams in the darkroom but I am probably not too far because the images in my mind required me to be really good in the darkroom. My personal work was mostly in B&W because I never learned much about color and when I had color images I wanted to create, it was very frustrating dealing with labs who just didn't get what I was trying to do...

Learn any which way you want. It really doesn't matter much. When you get frustrated because you can't get the results you want, you will go and learn some more. No big deal.

Now, the professional side of this. For me at least. I will be opening a new studio before the end of the year and I realized that I wasn't going to learn PS that quickly... So, taking this into consideration plus the fact that I can make more money shooting than I can doing PP, I decided to hire a PP person. 

The problem I had was: how do I judge someone whose work I barely understand? So I borrowed a friend's PP person to do all the technical testing of my candidates. :er:


----------



## mdtusz (May 8, 2010)

magkelly said:


> I swear sometimes I think I must be the only serious Photoshop user on the planet who loathes keyboard shortcuts and who will only use those that are absolutely necessary!
> 
> I was just watching a new Lynda tutorial on CS5 the other night? Every other second they're using a keyboard shortcut that takes twice as much time than just using the freakin mouse to click off an arrow in a box or something! It was a great tutorial otherwise but they about drove me nuts watching them mentioning them all!
> 
> ...



For photoshop, keyboard shortcuts aren't as useful, but in Aperture or LR, I will always have one hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse. I hit p change to 'quick previews' when I sort through them, hit z to zoom where my mouse is on, hit c to pull up the crop tool, hit v to change my screen view (thumbnails/fullscreen/both) etc. etc. They speed up the process by an incredible amount because I don't have to physically move my mouse onto the zoom button then back to where I want to zoom into, or have to click on the crop tool. Sure, it sounds super lazy and ridiculous in text, but in reality, it makes a difference. If you can't remember to hit c for crop or z for zoom, you're just lazy.

That said, there are more elaborate ones I use and memorize because I use them so frequently. Turning on the red and blue highlight/shadow indicators is an example. I could go through the top menu, or I could just press shift+alt+h. The list goes on, but any way you cut it, they speed up the process and make it easier assuming you can remember them.


----------



## GeneralBenson (May 8, 2010)

Yeah, I'll have to agree that I don't think it's possible to make a case that keyboar shortcuts aren't faster than clicking your way around.  Sure, if you don't know the shortcuts then they're slower, but once you take the time to memorize them really well, it's oooo much faster.  I forced myself to use them at first, even when I couldn't remember them, and would refuse to click through, and had a ceat sheet to keep looking up the shortcuts.  Now I know all the ones I need and it absurdly faster than clicking through all the menus or moving the mouse all over the page for different tools, switching layers, and all that jazz.


----------



## Vautrin (May 9, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Software is the new darkroom. Few people were masters in the darkroom, some were adequate enough to get a half decent print and most were somewhere in the middle.
> 
> It will be the same with software. Where you end up depends in large part on your own desire or not to spend the time to learn but also on what quality images you need to satisfy you as well as how much manipulation the images in your mind require.
> 
> ...



Your post raises an interesting point.  Great photographer and great photoshopper may not be overlapping skill sets...  At some point photoshop becomes more about graphic skills and less about composing a good picture and taking a nice shot that was properly exposed...


----------



## Arch (May 9, 2010)

mdtusz said:


> I think one of the most important things to learn on programs like Aperture, LR, and PS is shortcuts. I have almost every keyboard shortcut for Aperture memorized at this point and use most of them every time I open the program.
> 
> As far as photoshop goes, I think nobody knows half as much as they think they do about it. It's such a powerful program that is probably never harnessed to it's potential by any one person.



Exactly this on both points.

I am one of the lucky ones (if you can call it that) i have used Photoshop for over 14 years for my career. I have had to learn it as i am a professional graphic designer and therefore, by now, consider myself an advanced user.

However, as Mdtusz has said, you will always get people thinking they are more knowledgeable or 'better' than they actually are.
At Art college if i had a pound coin for everytime i heard someone yell 'yes, i am a photoshop king!' everytime they managed to work something out, i'd be a very rich man.

One time i went to a trade show and there was a guy who worked for Adobe there doing demo's.
This guy could put anyone in their place.
Without even touching the mouse, he was creating fire (amongst the most convincing i had seen at the time) in front of me very eyes. using multiple layers, masks, opacities and selections.
During his talk he would say, there is always so much more the software is capable of, and a thousand ways to achieve it. Not even the guys at Adobe know everything, as there are so many variables.

If you think you are a Photoshop master, you probably are not.
But don't worry, you don't need to know it all, just enough to achieve what you want out of your hobby or business.


----------



## IgsEMT (May 9, 2010)

> How much do you really know about the software you are using?


PS - probably 1/50th of what it could do.
LR - probably 1/8 of what it could it. For example if you were to ask me in LR how and what to do in Slideshow, Print and Web modules, I wouldn't know much bc I probably looked at them maybe 4-5 times in the last 2 yrs.

A lot, at least with me, has to do with what I need to do with an image vs what program can do overall. It is one of the reasons why when I first started working with photoshop, class I took was for PS for photographers. Thus best advice I could offer, w/e learning materials you're looking to get, make sure they are specific for your need rather then overall.


----------



## pbelarge (May 9, 2010)

I have always been one of those people that has to know what I am doing when I do it. I do not want to be good, I want to be better. I research, I study, I ask questions and I seek out those who know more than me. I am never bashful about asking questions. Some people used to think I was dumb, asking so many questions for so many years. Now that I am where I am in my profession, they now say "how lucky you are to know what you know". It is not luck, it has been hard, persevering work for 25 years.


Things are a little different now, as access to information is just a fingertip away. I am hoping it will not take 25 years to produce acceptable photos.


I chose LR2, NIK software and PSE8 as my platform for taking my photos to a level I will be happy with. I thought the learning curve of these programs would be easier than PS. I see and understand what the camera and I can do, the software can help to produce what I saw when I take a shot. Actually what I felt when I took the shot.

Now that I am working with the camera and software, I can see I have years in front of me...


----------



## IgsEMT (May 9, 2010)

I love Nik stuff. Use them often


----------



## Live_free (May 11, 2010)

I used photoshop CS5 and Aperture 3. I know EVERYTHING about Aperture 3, literally. But for the photoshop thing... does anyone know everything about it? I know enough to do what I need.


----------



## kkamin (May 11, 2010)

magkelly said:


> I swear sometimes I think I must be the only serious Photoshop user on the planet who loathes keyboard shortcuts and who will only use those that are absolutely necessary!
> 
> I was just watching a new Lynda tutorial on CS5 the other night? Every other second they're using a keyboard shortcut that takes twice as much time than just using the freakin mouse to click off an arrow in a box or something! It was a great tutorial otherwise but they about drove me nuts watching them mentioning them all!
> 
> ...



Keyboard shortcuts are an absolute must if you are using Photoshop in a serious way.  I am looking for anything to speed up my work flow.  I think like most people, by brain is ahead of what is going on screen; I'm a few moves ahead of what I am currently doing.  So I just want the program to do what I want it to do as fast as it can so I can get on with it.  It is incredibly annoying for me to click on drop down menus or hit tiny points within a panel by navigating my mouse or wacom around, if I can just hit COMMAND + whatever instead.   I use actions too when I can. 

My favorite short cut that I learned a few months ago, is how to change the brush size:  Hold down control and option than click and drag the mouse.  You can scale it up and down very quickly.  It is faster than using the bracket keys for me and more satisfying.

And I don't know what I would do without the space bar, to move around the canvas or reposition a selection while sizing it.

---------

Google Image Result for http://www.kbcovers.com/catalog/PS-AK-ISO-QY_A.gif

I'm thinking of getting one of these for the hell of it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the OP's original question.  I try to learn everything I can about a program.  I'm always looking for new techniques that will expand my creative options and strengthen my skills as a digital technician.  I even learn aspects of the software not specifically applicable to photographic applications, but it helps strengthen my understanding of what is possible and the workings under the hood of the software.

I recommend the Lynda.com tutorials.  They are set up in easily digestible, piece meal bits, and they are very well thought out.

Good luck!


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 11, 2010)

Vautrin said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Software is the new darkroom. Few people were masters in the darkroom, some were adequate enough to get a half decent print and most were somewhere in the middle.
> ...



I am very busy right now but I thought your response needed to be addressed.

Photoshop was never and never will be about composing a good picture or properly exposing one. If the image is badly composed and badly exposed there is no reason to spend any time with PS. And in the age of film, there would have been no reason to spend time with it in the darkroom. Period.

PP (darkroom or PS) is there to enhance a good image. Not to save a bad one. You can be a PP magician but if you don't have good images to start with, you won't have good images in the end. As the saying goes, "**** in, **** out."


As for the overlapping part of your response, no commercial photog I ever knew spent much time in a darkroom. No art photog I knew ever trusted anyone's darkroom work but his/her own. The difference is art is a non-profit venture while commercial is about making money.

If I can charge $2-3,000 a day shooting and I can pay someone $2-300 a day to do PP, why would I be doing PP?


----------



## kkamin (May 11, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> As for the overlapping part of your response, no commercial photog I ever knew spent much time in a darkroom. No art photog I knew ever trusted anyone's darkroom work but his/her own. The difference is art is a non-profit venture while commercial is about making money.
> 
> If I can charge $2-3,000 a day shooting and I can pay someone $2-300 a day to do PP, why would I be doing PP?



I don't know many rock star photographers, but one of my old professors, Alec Soth, blew up right after I had him as an instructor.  He has permanent pieces in the MOMA now and other art museums and commanded tens of thousands for a print.  If I remember correctly, he had darkroom assistants producing prints for him.  I'm sure there are tons of film art photographer who like shooting but don't care for darkroom work that much and would rather direct an amazing darkroom printer to reach their ends.  The same for digital photography.  And there are many commercial photographers who do their own processing and retouching and take great pleasure in it.

I graduated from a fine art school and I don't think anyone there wants to be non-profit.  Painters want to get famous and sell their work.  Same with sculptors.  Same with photographers.  Do you think Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel for fun?  Or Da Vinci labored over the most iconic painting in the world as a non-profit venture?  Many of the great works we deem as 'true art' are commissioned works.  And I'm sure the buyer participated somewhat in the vision.  The master painters got paid at the end of the day just like any commercial artist.    

The intentions of commercial art and fine art can differ: selling a product or idea versus selling the artist themselves.  But their content can be identical and the amount of creative passion invested can be identical.


----------



## rufus5150 (May 11, 2010)

> For photoshop, keyboard shortcuts aren't as useful



Wow, that's the oddest thing I've ever heard 

Not exactly, but I'm addicted to my photoshop keyboard shortcuts.


----------



## cfusionpm (May 12, 2010)

I use a lot of software, but I probably don't know ANY of them fully. I generally know enough to get accomplished what I need to (or will google tutorials on specifics). That's how I learn and grow. You can't jump into software and expect to know every in and out. It's about building a simple set of basics and getting to know the interface. There are probably a LOT of shortcuts and faster ways to do what I do, but I generally only pick up effiency tips through word of mouth (or occasionaly on forums).

As far as Lightroom goes; after originally seeing a video for the first Lightroom, I instantly fell in love and it's been at the center of my workflow ever since. The more I use it the more I pick up and learn. I would say I know 80-90% of LR2, but maybe only 25% of PS.


----------



## magkelly (May 12, 2010)

It's been really interesting reading the responses here. 

To those "addicted" to those shortcuts I say "Use em!" but I can't see myself becoming a shortcuts convert anytime soon. I'm definitely a major trackball mouse person. I am so much faster at clicking those drop down menus and tabs and scrolling with my ball mouse than I will likely ever be at using my keyboard it's not even funny.

I actually did memorize some of the standard ones while I was taking my Adobe classes, Photoshop and Illustrator, and I used them at the teacher's request, but I found in actual practice, for me, while working, they really did slow me down to a crawl. 

But then again I'm a very fast mouser to begin with. I always seem to surprise people I work with at how fast I get things done using a mouse and the menus. That's in all applications, not just the Adobe ones. I actually forget sometimes that other people don't actually mouse as fast as I do. I go to show someone something I am doing and I usually get "Hey, slow down!" bit from them.  

I watch my friends, they use keyboard shortcuts for things like turning up the volume, browsing, going to email, everything practically, things I never even thought of as being particularly keyboard related things really.

If I did that, switched, I don't think I'd never get anything done, seriously.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 12, 2010)

kkamin said:


> I graduated from a fine art school and I don't think anyone there wants to be non-profit.  Painters want to get famous and sell their work.  Same with sculptors.  Same with photographers.



Only problem is that art photography does not sell for much. We are on a photo forum and I was talking about photo as art.

Check out KmH thread about an auction that netted $18 mils for photos. Notice the s at the end of photo? Single paintings sell for that easily enough but not *a* photo. Get over it or start painting.

Just a few months ago I bought a Jerry Uelsmann print for way less than $2,ooo...


----------



## denawayne (May 12, 2010)

I have learned so much about Photoshop by watching tutorials on YouTube. It's amazing what you can find on there.


----------



## kkamin (May 12, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> kkamin said:
> 
> 
> > I graduated from a fine art school and I don't think anyone there wants to be non-profit.  Painters want to get famous and sell their work.  Same with sculptors.  Same with photographers.
> ...



Sorry OP to digress...  I agree that painters on average can command higher fees for their work.

But the number of living painters that have rock star status and can make a million off a single painting are very few.  In my mind, fine artist painters and photographers are much in the same boat.  A select few can live wealthy by selling their work.  But most cannot live solely on selling alone; either they do some commercial work on the side, own a small related business, work as a bartender, get grants, have a benefactor, or come from legacy money.  This opinion of mine applies to all fine artists.  A tough market that I am too fearful to take a shot at, at this time.  

The one advantage that photographers have over some other mediums is that they can create multiple copies and make multiple sales.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 12, 2010)

You want to be a rock star, learn music. You want to make some serious money in the art world, learn to paint.

No guarantee either way but a much better chance than with photo. Wake up and smell the coffee. Or just study art history.


----------



## Crashbox (Jun 9, 2016)

Seat time never hurts. I have fewer than 7 days experience with Photoshop Elements 11 (got it with my camera) and I haven't done hardly anything with it. At first I was confused because it's the gold standard but it looks underpowered. The thing I'm learning is that the presets are a starting point. To get the most out of the program, as I can with Gimp, it's going to take experience and time. 

I've run Gimp for ten or twelve years. I finally feel like I can make headway there. Not sure it answers the question, but that's my experience. There are no magic wands when it comes to familiarity.


----------



## smoke665 (Jun 9, 2016)

pbelarge said:


> am starting to use the program and I realize after viewing the tuts and videos and reading that I really need to just use the program and see what is what.



With software and cameras, you'll reach a point when you realize that the route you use to get there may be different, but the processes have a lot similarities.


----------



## KmH (Jun 9, 2016)

Crashbox said:


> Seat time never hurts. I have fewer than 7 days experience with Photoshop Elements 11 (got it with my camera) and I haven't done hardly anything with it. At first I was confused because it's the gold standard but it looks underpowered.


Yep. Photoshop Elements is way under powered. Unless something has changed I don't know about -  Elements still can't do any 16-bit depth edits.

Photoshop Elements is a consumer grade product that has maybe 30% of the professional grade of Photoshop's tool, functions, and features. (Photoshop CC 2015.1 - which is Photoshop 16.1)


----------



## cauzimme (Jun 9, 2016)

I know what I need to know, i'm a self taught photoshoper, I had courses where I was actually giving the courses instead of the teacher (college level). The best trick I can give you is to experiment. Take a shitty photo underexposed and one overexposed and try the best to level it to a decent level, spend hours in front of your program and it will come. I would also suggest you to adhere to the CC photoshop it's something like 9$ a month. Photoshop element is element... not the whole photoshop... it comes with lightroom too. 

Personnaly, not using lightroom unless for the library (better than bridge)


----------



## snowbear (Jun 9, 2016)

six year old thread. btw.


----------



## Crashbox (Jun 9, 2016)

My apologies, I forgot to check that. I'm new, and I won't make this mistake again.


----------



## smoke665 (Jun 9, 2016)

Like a herd of cattle, one slips out the gate and everyone follows!!!


----------



## snowbear (Jun 9, 2016)

Crashbox said:


> My apologies, I forgot to check that. I'm new, and I won't make this mistake again.


It's OK, so long as you don't mind the pointing and giggling.


----------



## fmw (Jun 11, 2016)

I only use a fairly small lot of the capabilities of Photoshop.  Most of the rest of it is a mystery to me but I use the help function to look up what I don't know when I need to use something new.


----------



## table1349 (Jun 12, 2016)

How much do I really Know? Enough to check the date of the thread.


----------



## chuasam (Jun 16, 2016)

Being accused of raising a necro thread vs being accused of not using the search function - you can't win.


----------



## robbins.photo (Jun 16, 2016)

chuasam said:


> Being accused of raising a necro thread vs being accused of not using the search function - you can't win.



And thus I bid you welcome to the real world, in which fairness and logic simply do not exist.

There are however some really nice souvenir t-shirts available in the lobby.


----------



## chuasam (Jun 16, 2016)

The way to win is simply Ignore your haters. It makes them madder.


----------

