# Portfolio Building



## DanaDawn (Aug 29, 2013)

Should you charge for portfolio building?

 I'm in the process of trying to lay out a business plan, which includes pricing out sessions. I need to build my portfolio so I was thinking of offering portfolio building sessions at a deep discount. Thoughts?


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## supercool2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Im at this stage as well. But I am not even close to doing it as an business . Right now I'm primarily learning /practicing things . When I show the portraits I have taken so far, to others they say wow, those look professional ! But I know it's because they see the background bokeh from my lens/aperture setting that is not normally in a point and shoot , or the fact its so extremely crisp&clear ...but that's because I have a *very* nice camera, and I think those people are used to seeing cell phone pictures etc...... 
Anyway I am not personally comfortable charging any one anything . I advertised for free sessions and got no bites. I advertised for a "deal" $25. First time session and got an email from one person. I then told her I was really free. The people out&about/acquaintances I have offered to photos for free acted like they did no take me seriously . I wondered if it was because offering it for free gives people the impression I don't know what I'm doing or they will get crappy pictures. Then I show them a few  my tablet and they go whoa! But then they still dont set a date with me for anything. So far I only had the pleasure of being able to take portraits of my neighbor's 2 yr old daughter and one other person. I feel like I have to be charging big $ to get anyone's interest (?) . I need practice and learn best by doing in the real life situations. So it has not been easy just getting people to give me 30-60 minutes (or more if they want ) of their time in exchange for free photos. And one of  people are always taking their kid to that portrait innovation place,with the silly super faked out back grounds (like their new "at the fair" one) , so its not like they don't have time to get their kid's pictures done. Speaking of time, and that company ... The wait time there is horrible! So by going there, you are not saving time. You can get a 1-3+hour session with a private professional photographer in the amount of time it takes to get those cheap pictures there.


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## DanaDawn (Aug 29, 2013)

supercool2 said:


> Im at this stage as well. But I am not even close to doing it as an business . Right now I'm primarily learning /practicing things . When I show the portraits I have taken so far, to others they say wow, those look professional ! But I know it's because they see the background bokeh from my lens/aperture setting that is not normally in a point and shoot , or the fact its so extremely crisp&clear ...but that's because I have a *very* nice camera, and I think those people are used to seeing cell phone pictures etc......
> Anyway I am not personally comfortable charging any one anything . I advertised for free sessions and got no bites. I advertised for a "deal" $25. First time session and got an email from one person. I then told her I was really free. The people out&about/acquaintances I have offered to photos for free acted like they did no take me seriously . I wondered if it was because offering it for free gives people the impression I don't know what I'm doing or they will get crappy pictures. Then I show them a few my tablet and they go whoa! But then they still dont set a date with me for anything. So far I only had the pleasure of being able to take portraits of my neighbor's 2 yr old daughter and one other person. I feel like I have to be charging big $ to get anyone's interest (?) . I need practice and learn best by doing in the real life situations. So it has not been easy just getting people to give me 30-60 minutes (or more if they want ) of their time in exchange for free photos. And one of people are always taking their kid to that portrait innovation place,with the silly super faked out back grounds (like their new "at the fair" one) , so its not like they don't have time to get their kid's pictures done. Speaking of time, and that company ... The wait time there is horrible! So by going there, you are not saving time. You can get a 1-3+hour session with a private professional photographer in the amount of time it takes to get those cheap pictures there.



I have read other people running into this problem as well, offering sessions for free gets them nothing, but offer a discount and they get a few bites. 

I feel as though if I'm going to start building a portfolio, I need to have the rest of my 'business' in order. Website, facebook page, etc. Which includes setting my session prices & any discounts for portfolio building.


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## nycphotography (Aug 29, 2013)

You should PAY the MODELS for helping you to build your portfolio.

How much you pay them and how much they pay you and what the net cash settlement is... well open to negotiation. 

But really, TFP didn't get to be the norm by accident.


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## nycphotography (Aug 29, 2013)

After all, you do want MODELS in your portfolio, right? 

God bless em, but people really are stupid enough to hire the photographer with the best looking subjects, as if they can magically be transformed into being best looking subjects as well.  So you may as well build your portfolio with the good looking subjects.


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## supercool2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Ok, so for me personally,  I shouldn't talk of a portfolio at all, and purely concentrate on the learning I'm doing. But I still have the issue where I feel I need experience shooting other people, other kids, etc.. in different lighting&locations to help me learn best. My kids are tired of me taking their pictures. They need a break from it every once in a while .


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## DanaDawn (Aug 29, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> After all, you do want MODELS in your portfolio, right?
> 
> God bless em, but people really are stupid enough to hire the photographer with the best looking subjects, as if they can magically be transformed into being best looking subjects as well.  So you may as well build your portfolio with the good looking subjects.



You have a very good point! A lot of the portfolios I've looked at have very pretty people in them. Beautiful families, and cute kids... I just figured they were "real life" families.


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## nycphotography (Aug 29, 2013)

exactly.


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## sm4him (Aug 29, 2013)

I have very little experience in portrait photography, I'm not a pro and I don't have a portfolio...but, I dunno...
I think if I were going to have one, I *wouldn't* want models. I'd want real people. Yes, I'd want them looking their best and all that, but I wouldn't want people seeing models and thinking I'm gonna be able to make the ordinary, slightly overweight and completely out-of-shape family man/woman look just as good.
That just kinda seems like the polar opposite of "Underpromise, overdeliver."


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## nycphotography (Aug 29, 2013)

Discussing the gray areas in the ethics of marketing... hmm... not sure I want to peel that onion.  ;-)


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## supercool2 (Aug 29, 2013)

I have no trouble finding super cute people (see picture below ) to use for a portfolio once I am ready to have one up. I am having trouble actually getting people (meaning strangers,and even acquaintances)  interested in allowing me to take their pictures in the first place lol , portfolio or no portfolio even if its just for learning/practice. 

Below: example of super cuteness, but not one I'd use for for professional advertising as I know there are things wrong with that picture such as her not looking my way, probably the coloring/editing etc.. Just posting it to show her super-cuteness .   I have permission to use this photo BTW . *background: I took this the other day for practice/ learning . Her mom can only let me take her photos so many times though, lol. So I need to find other people to let me practice on them.   
View attachment 54143


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## KmH (Aug 29, 2013)

FWIW - You don't need permission to use photos you own the copyright to, in an editorial use.

A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things

From a practice/learning perspective, I would worry most about the rather severe subject underexposure in the image you posted.

DanaDawn. How much is a "deep discount"?

But, paying models is a smart way to build a portfolio. 
The average person knows there are limits to how good a photographer can make them look, and models you can afford to pay won't necessarily be the most beautiful people available.


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## gsgary (Aug 29, 2013)

supercool2 said:


> I have no trouble finding super cute people (see picture below ) to use for a portfolio once I am ready to have one up. I am having trouble actually getting people (meaning strangers,and even acquaintances)  interested in allowing me to take their pictures in the first place lol , portfolio or no portfolio even if its just for learning/practice.
> 
> Below: example of super cuteness, but not one I'd use for for professional advertising as I know there are things wrong with that picture such as her not looking my way, probably the coloring/editing etc.. Just posting it to show her super-cuteness .   I have permission to use this photo BTW . *background: I took this the other day for practice/ learning . Her mom can only let me take her photos so many times though, lol. So I need to find other people to let me practice on them.
> View attachment 54143



+ all  the light is on the background and none on the subjects face, needed a reflector or subtle fill flash


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## DanaDawn (Aug 29, 2013)

KmH said:


> DanaDawn. How much is a "deep discount"?
> 
> But, paying models is a smart way to build a portfolio.
> The average person knows there are limits to how good a photographer can make them look, and models you can afford to pay won't necessarily be the most beautiful people available.



I'm not really sure at this point. But I was thinking like... DEEP DISCOUNT lol example: Regular Session Fee $200, but for portfolio building purposes Session Fee $50 + digital prints (numbers are totally made up, just giving an example). I don't know if this is a good idea or not.


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## tirediron (Aug 29, 2013)

If you want to build your portfolio 'on the cheap', use Model Mayhem; 'Trade for Print' shoots are a great way to get models.  There tends to be a high flake factor, and you may meet some "interesting" people, but overall it works well.


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## KmH (Aug 29, 2013)

gsgary said:


> + all  the light is on the background and none on the subjects face, needed a reflector or subtle fill flash


There is a small pinlight in the eyes, likely from a pop-up flash unit.



DanaDawn said:


> I'm not really sure at this point. But I was thinking like... DEEP DISCOUNT lol example: Regular Session Fee $200, but for portfolio building purposes Session Fee $50 + digital prints (numbers are totally made up, just giving an example). I don't know if this is a good idea or not.


I think 75% is way to much.

A 30% discount is pretty deep. A $200 session for $140.

What to you is a "digital print"? An image file on a disc?


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## supercool2 (Aug 29, 2013)

FYI , This particular  child was a (real life scenerio) practice/learning *only* photo shoot. My neighbor was gracious  enough to allow me to practice on her. I had speed light SB700 ready for use off camera but I couldn't get it to fire. I was feeling rushed because my son had keyboarding lessons to get to right after.  My youngest son was was there playing too. I thought it was probably a bad idea, but she insisted on me bringing him so they could play together. I stated in my last post, I was only sharing the photo _to show how cute she is, to make my point about not having a problem finding really cute kids ,n_ot to be critiqued. 
I don't understand how it is under exposed. maybe it is. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. i do want to mention though, that I do notice the trend with photographers is they like to edit out the true colors of things,and then make the picture extremely blown out, so it is actually OVER exposed. Are you sure you are not just used to seeing/taking those same kind of blown out over exposed pictures? Maybe you can edit it,and show me how it would look better, since you want to turn it into a critique. (?)

edited again, to say maybeI did post in the wrong section. I thought maybe me wanting advice on how to get more people to let me practice on taking their pictures ,would be good to post here since its dealing with people ,probably in the same way as someone needing to get people for a portfolio. I need to deal with people just like in business too, even though  I am not trying to do a business right now. I am just trying to learn&practice so now day I can get to that point,when I'm ready. But I need people to practice on first,not just objects and fake things, lol.


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## DanaDawn (Aug 30, 2013)

KmH said:


> A 30% discount is pretty deep. A $200 session for $140.
> 
> What to you is a "digital print"? An image file on a disc?



Thank you for the advice, this is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for. 
By digital prints, I mean high resolution images they can download directly from their gallery. I'm wondering if this is a good plan, or if I should just have images they can download and are suitable for sharing online thru facebook or email, but not High Resolution images good enough to print. 



> FYI , This particular child was a (real life scenerio) practice/learning *only* photo shoot. My neighbor was gracious enough to allow me to practice on her. I had speed light SB700 ready for use off camera but I couldn't get it to fire. I was feeling rushed because my son had keyboarding lessons to get to right after. My youngest son was was there playing too. I thought it was probably a bad idea, but she insisted on me bringing him so they could play together. I stated in my last post, I was only sharing the photo _to show how cute she is, to make my point about not having a problem finding really cute kids ,n_ot to be critiqued.
> I don't understand how it is under exposed. maybe it is. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. i do want to mention though, that I do notice the trend with photographers is they like to edit out the true colors of things,and then make the picture extremely blown out, so it is actually OVER exposed. Are you sure you are not just used to seeing/taking those same kind of blown out over exposed pictures? Maybe you can edit it,and show me how it would look better, since you want to turn it into a critique. (?)
> 
> edited again, to say maybeI did post in the wrong section. I thought maybe me wanting advice on how to get more people to let me practice on taking their pictures ,would be good to post here since its dealing with people ,probably in the same way as someone needing to get people for a portfolio. I need to deal with people just like in business too, even though I am not trying to do a business right now. I am just trying to learn&practice so now day I can get to that point,when I'm ready. But I need people to practice on first,not just objects and fake things, lol.



I would think that since you're trying to learn and improve you're photography you should listen to what others are saying and not come across so defensive. We're all going to hear comments we aren't going to like, but rather than get upset about it perhaps you should take a step back and improve on what they're suggesting. I also found your image to be under exposed and the WB is completely off. It has nothing to do with editing out the true colours of things. Is the girl really green in real life? Whether you asked for critique or not, you got it and should use it to improve your images... IMHO


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## paigew (Aug 30, 2013)

I have been PB for the past year and have only very recently begun charging (full price). I prefer not to charge when pb because it takes all the pressure away. You are free to do your thing and now worry about the client being unhappy. I send them the digital files and I use the shots on my blog/portfolio I charge them (my) full price for pro prints.


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## supercool2 (Aug 30, 2013)

Danadawn, you are free to edit my photo and post it to show me how it is supposed to look, if it's so messed up. ;-)


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## MartinCrabtree (Aug 30, 2013)

In my area classes are available that provide (paid) professional models. Along with the pretty people instruction is a bonus.  Perhaps that would be a solution for you.


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## DanaDawn (Aug 30, 2013)

supercool2 said:


> Danadawn, you are free to edit my photo and post it to show me how it is supposed to look, if it's so messed up. ;-)



I never said it was "so messed up". I pointed out the same issues other posters pointed out. 

Here's what *I* would have done: 




We're all here just trying to learn and improve. :thumbup:


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## Big Mike (Aug 30, 2013)

During a course I took, several years ago, the instructor told us about a former student who created a whole portfolio in a day.  He found the best looking people he knew and asked them to model for him.  (hiring models TFP would work as well).  He went to some consignment clothing stores and arranged to borrow some wedding dresses and other clothing (possibly in exchange for photos to hang in the store).  He rented or borrowed a few different backdrops and then shot everything in his garage (and open garage door makes for very, very good lighting.  

The thing that I always tell people about a portfolio (just my opinion) is that less can more.  In other words, 10 really strong images is better than those same 10 images, along with 10 more that aren't as good.  We tend to judge ourselves by our best work...but other people may judge us by the average of all the work they see...or even by the worst image they see.  
There is a saying along the lines of...'The difference between a good photographer and a bad photographer, is the size of their waste basket'.  In other words, a good photographer only shows people the very best of what they shoot...while a 'bad' photographer shows everything they shot.


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## supercool2 (Aug 30, 2013)

While I apreciate you trying to show me the editing faults in my picture, I am well aware of what can be done to make it look better after the fact (once I learn how to use certain programs to do so) . *However I do not yet have the ability to use post processing techniques to be doing full edits like that one you did , due to not knowing how to use these fancy programs a lot of people are using* (like photoshop,lightroom or anything else) . The only one I have is Light Room,and I have no clue how to do anything with it other than a very VERY basic things (exposure,white balance,sharpen) . I am in the process of learning light room when I can. I save all my photos onto both my hard drive and back up hard drive in raw files. So one day when I have mastered the skills of knowing how to use these computer programs, to properly edit, I will have the pictures I have taken of my family/my own kids,etc.. and still have those raw files to edit and make them look so much better than I could do at this time.  


Right now I do what little editing/post processing I able to do within the limitations only so they are view able as jpg when posting online,etc... As stated in my original post, the photo of this girl was ONLY to make a point how cute she is, and that I don't have a problem finding 'models" (not real models,but super cute/good looking kids) .  

*YES* I am aware I need a reflector/diffuser and several other things. I am _still shopping_ for more equipment . I am aware I should of used something like that, and even more flash on her, but my flash wasn't working that morning. I am fully aware I made a lot of mistakes that morning and that's why it was a learning experience which I did learn from !  . BY taking her pictures I LEARNED those things needed be done. She was my 'guinea pig" so to speak, (literally, that was the whole purpose of the photo shoot, to PRACTICE taking pictures) one of the few people I can PRACTICE things, like how to use my flash ,how to do this/that,etc.. And right now I'm concentrating on taking photos,and trying to take photos correctly. Not so much editing at the moment. Editing can always be done later,after I learn how to use those programs I am very eager to learn how to use. 

I think some people who are blessed with  $ to buy photo shop or other programs AND know how to use those programs tend to forget not everyone can just go "OH, thanks I'll go into my photo shop and do this/that since I couldn't get it right in the camera the first time" WHere was I supposed to learn to use my LR ? I Only stumbled across these video tutorials on how to use the program, only TODAY btw. 




DanaDawn said:


> supercool2 said:
> 
> 
> > Danadawn, you are free to edit my photo and post it to show me how it is supposed to look, if it's so messed up. ;-)
> ...


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## DanaDawn (Aug 30, 2013)

Big Mike said:


> During a course I took, several years ago, the instructor told us about a former student who created a whole portfolio in a day. He found the best looking people he knew and asked them to model for him. (hiring models TFP would work as well). He went to some consignment clothing stores and arranged to borrow some wedding dresses and other clothing (possibly in exchange for photos to hang in the store). He rented or borrowed a few different backdrops and then shot everything in his garage (and open garage door makes for very, very good lighting.
> 
> The thing that I always tell people about a portfolio (just my opinion) is that less can more. In other words, 10 really strong images is better than those same 10 images, along with 10 more that aren't as good. We tend to judge ourselves by our best work...but other people may judge us by the average of all the work they see...or even by the worst image they see.
> There is a saying along the lines of...'The difference between a good photographer and a bad photographer, is the size of their waste basket'. In other words, a good photographer only shows people the very best of what they shoot...while a 'bad' photographer shows everything they shot.



Thanks again Mike! I totally agree with building a portfolio around your BEST images and not e v e r y s i n g l e one! Less is more, especially when you can show Quality and not Quantity.


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## nycphotography (Aug 30, 2013)

supercool2 said:


> While I apreciate you trying to show me the editing faults in my picture, I am well aware of [bla bla bla]
> 
> I think some people who are blessed with  $ to buy photo shop or other programs AND know how to use those programs tend to forget not everyone can just go



Gimp is free. All it costs is the effort to learn it.  I'd suggest if you don't have he money, invest the time.  If you can't find the time, it just shows you don't really want to, that the other things you spend your time on are more important to you.

*And you may not realize it, but that chip on your shoulder greatly reduces the effort other people are willing to invest in helping / teaching / mentoring you. 
*
The reason you may not realize it is because the people who might have been able to help you just avoid you instead.  

So you sit there all bitter about the people with the money to buy things and how they just don't care about you.  

They avoid you because you make it perfectly clear that caring about you is guaranteed to be a pain in the ass.  

And frankly, who needs another pain in the ass that can easily be avoided?


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## nycphotography (Aug 30, 2013)

DanaDawn said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > During a course I took, several years ago, the instructor told us about a former student who created a whole portfolio in a day. He found the best looking people he knew and asked them to model for him. (hiring models TFP would work as well). He went to some consignment clothing stores and arranged to borrow some wedding dresses and other clothing (possibly in exchange for photos to hang in the store). He rented or borrowed a few different backdrops and then shot everything in his garage (and open garage door makes for very, very good lighting.
> ...



The original Model mayhem got it right... 20 pictures.  If you want to post a new one, you have to pick which one to remove to make room.  A perpetual game of "war" amongst your work.


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