# I need to rant...



## eric-holmes (Sep 11, 2009)

[Begin Rant] I am so tired of seeing everyone think they can just start up a photography business and think they are good. I am sorry but it takes more than a good camera to take a good picture. You need to have a creative intuition at least. I really don't know how to word what I am trying to say. It just seems like anyone thinks they can pick up a camera and start a business now days. I am in no way saying I am good, but I am not starting up a business either. Here is an example of what I am talking about... Login | Facebook  Slutty does not equal artistic.[End Rant]

Sorry, just had to get that out there. What are yalls opinion?


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## syphlix (Sep 11, 2009)

if someone gonna pay them... why not?


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## eric-holmes (Sep 11, 2009)

I guess that is true, but I would be mad if my wedding pictures came back like those.


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## shed301 (Sep 11, 2009)

yeah so would i to be bluntly honest. I don't do wedding photography at all so i can't really give a opinion but from a outsider's point of view i'd be asking for my money back if it was a paid job, I've seen a lot better with little P&S cameras than that lot

Note:. havn't even gone to the modelling section yet..... to scared to look 

my 2.5 cents worth


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## mammarazzi (Sep 11, 2009)

Maybe she's a friend of the bride and the bride is being nice? I see where you're coming from though. I am really brand new to photograhy but I realize that it takes alot of hardwork and artistic capabilities. I don't understand why others can't see that. It's not only in photography either. It's just like when you were kids when you tried out for sport, band, what ever, we didn't always make the team. Now "you can be anything you want to be". Sorry, that's not real life and I really wish people would realize that.


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## Hock (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree that you need something more to start of a business of any kind.

however...i'll admit i had an idea of starting some sort of business on the side, once i know whats going on and everything.
Haven't you ever done something, and figured you could make a few extra bucks? your doing it anyways? why not make some money while your at it. - that was probably their thought too. who couldn't use some extra money now a days

Yes, they might suck, but that just means their "business" will suffer. the clients (hopefully) will be able to tell the difference between some rich boy that picked up the top of the line equipment than that photographer with 40+ years experience, who may not be using the latest and greatest, but know how to use every little bit of that camera.  If they cant, do they really deserve the work of an artist?

just my $0.02


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## Jedo_03 (Sep 11, 2009)

... and good lenses...

It's not just the aspect of "starting a business..."
There is a general misconception that simply buying an expensive camera and a few expensive lenses will 'suddenly' (and magically) transform the buyer into a 'Pro...' capable of making "good" photographs...
It's just not so...
Sure... any photograph from a DSLR is going to be heaps better quality than a snap from a mobile phone camera... But there is a hell-of-a-lot more to a good image than how many pixels you have...
Owning a "good" camera doesn't make anyone a "good" photographer...

Also - There is a BIG difference between what Mr and Mrs Public see when they look at a photograph compared to what an experienced photographer sees...
And - I think - many Noobie's are still at the Mr/Mrs Public level...
Take a snap of Little Miss Mary Public - wearing her new frilly white and ivory dress and red sparkly Dorothy shoes, posing in a busy shopping mall lit by fluorescent lighting... It turns out a stop underexposed and slightly OOF... with a green cast from the lighting and a terribly cluttered background... And Mr and Mrs Public LOVE it...
Cos all THEY see is the 'captured moment' of their darling daughter - looking ever so cute and pretty in her girlie dress and Dorothy shoes...
But the experienced photographer sees BEYOND the cute child and looks at the photograph OBJECTIVELY - can see the technical flaws of poor WB and underexposure and the cluttered snap-shot background...
There's the difference...
Experience...
Jedo


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## Torus34 (Sep 11, 2009)

The marketplace will decide.  Those who can will prosper.  Those who cannot will sell their gear and try something else.


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## ann (Sep 11, 2009)

Am not sure this is the exact quote but it goes something like this.

buy a piano and you own a piano

buy a camera and your a photographer

I couldn't get into that site to see the photos, but based on the comments i can will image, and i certainly understand the rant.


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## bigtwinky (Sep 11, 2009)

Are they great photographers?  no.  But they can successfully run a business if they are good business people.

The pictures aren't horrible.  I've seen worse from people.  But I've seen way way better.  There are some basics of not only posing, but exposure and composition that they are lacking, plus they have bad photoshop ideas (lets turn the grass all purply!).

But I've seen average photographers, ones who aren't the most artistic people I know, run a good business.  Why?  They are business people.  They offer good products, not the best, but at a good price for the market they are targetting.  They have been in business for 15+ years.  I'm such getting clients for him is much harder, but still possible.


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## Dagwood56 (Sep 11, 2009)

Here we go again.  I can understand your frustration though.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...gallery/173871-buy-camera-start-business.html


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## thenikonguy (Sep 11, 2009)

yay he's taking the heat off of me for my post (the one linked above) LOL


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## Plato (Sep 11, 2009)

Jedo_03 said:


> ... and good lenses...
> 
> It's not just the aspect of "starting a business..."
> There is a general misconception that simply buying an expensive camera and a few expensive lenses will 'suddenly' (and magically) transform the buyer into a 'Pro...' capable of making "good" photographs...
> ...



No, no, no.  Don't these persons realize that it's also a requirement to buy Photoshop software and screw around with RAW files?

PS - My first SLR was the original "Honeywell Pentax" Spotmatic that I purchased in 1964.  I still have it and, as far as I'm aware, it still works.


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## PhotoXopher (Sep 11, 2009)

Who cares, it just makes the real pros look that much better... Survival of the fittest and all that.

After all, this IS still a relatively free country - if people want to charge for their services and people are willing to pay for those services so be it.

Rant away, like all the other people who started threads like this - guess what, it doesn't change a thing - probably doesn't even make you feel better.

Fact is, I got my first DSLR around January of this year and just yesterday I put up an ad in Craigslist offering my services for free (another rant some people have). However I narrowed it down to hunting photography and specifically said I am an amateur looking to gain experience.

We'll see how it goes - if free doesn't work I may change it to $50 per day and see if that generates some hits. 

I'm not one of them, but there are those who are just naturally gifted and it doesn't take 10,000 photos and 5 years of training to make them good at what they do.


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## iamacyborg (Sep 11, 2009)

Plato said:


> Jedo_03 said:
> 
> 
> > ... and good lenses...
> ...



_Buy_ Photoshop? :lmao:


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## Plato (Sep 11, 2009)

iamacyborg said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Jedo_03 said:
> ...



I don't steal.


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## SrBiscuit (Sep 11, 2009)

AGAIN?!

:roll:


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## iamacyborg (Sep 11, 2009)

Plato said:


> I don't steal.



I wasn't suggesting that you do, I was just suggesting that these hacks aren't likely to be purchasing PS licenses.


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## sly677 (Sep 11, 2009)

> *Who cares*, it just makes the real pros look that much better... Survival of the fittest and all that.
> 
> After all, this IS still a relatively free country - if people want to charge for their services and people are willing to pay for those services so be it.
> 
> Rant away, like all the other people who started threads like this - guess what, it doesn't change a thing - probably doesn't even make you feel better.


 
+1


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## Plato (Sep 11, 2009)

iamacyborg said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > I don't steal.
> ...



OK.  I misunderstood.


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## CSR Studio (Sep 11, 2009)

My question is don't any of these people that start up a photography business with no experience have any consideration for the industry and the client that you are screwing? You may have a good eye for light but you still need training and experience. I think it shows their lack of character.


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## thenikonguy (Sep 11, 2009)

for a lot of people, they are just trying to make a quick buck, its not that they don't care about screwing someone over, its just that cheap photography is a good way to make a quick buck.. and they really think they are capable of doing it.. 

i know the first time i went out one my own and did a photoshoot, I honestly thought I was good.. and the client was very happy with the results, i look back now, at those photos, and they were nothing short of sh!t! after that experience, i stopped advertising myself, and learned more... 

Now, with confidence I can advertise myself, and charge what I charge, and know that the client will get what I consider to be a good end product.. not just what they think is good.


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## Dao (Sep 11, 2009)

There are $1 burgers and people buy them again and again. There are $10 burgers and people buy them again and again.   As long as the $1 burger is sell it as $1 burger, I do not think there is a problem.

hey ..  even if $1 burger sell it as $10 burger and people still buy them, I may not have problem with it, but I will not buy it.

Anyone complaints about paying couple bucks for a bottle of water?   And in which it may have a higher percentage of contamination than regular US tape water.

If the market allow such business exist, I do not think there is a problem.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 11, 2009)

It is a rather tired subject it's true, certainly not one worth getting wound up by.


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## Nolan (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree with you.  But no worries must of these "business" dont last long at all and they wont achieve much.


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## MikeBookPro (Sep 11, 2009)

I guess I'll play bad guy in this thread.  I have always had an interest in photography, but nothing serious.  This time around, I bought a camera for the sake of learning, practicing, and perhaps most importantly, ultimately turning it into a business.  I don't think it shows a lack of character at all.

I'm not concerned with not having years of experience.  Photographers are hired based on the images they create.  If I'm able to create photos that make people want to hire me, I don't think it matters if I've been shooting for a week or a decade.  

Obviously, where the issue might be is that seasoned photographers tend to be more consistent.  The few people I've shot so far (paid) are aware that it might take me 300 shots to get what we're looking for, where it might take a more experienced photographer only 50 (for example).

With that said, there are countless "old pros" who are horrible photographers.  It's just like any business where talent and instinct play a role in the final product.  It can't *all* be taught.  Thus, for some, even years and years of experience doesn't help.


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## Missdaisy (Sep 11, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> However I narrowed it down to hunting photography and specifically said I am an amateur looking to gain experience.
> 
> We'll see how it goes - if free doesn't work I may change it to $50 per day and see if that generates some hits.


 
What exactly do you mean by hunting photography?


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## Plato (Sep 11, 2009)

Missdaisy said:


> N0YZE said:
> 
> 
> > However I narrowed it down to hunting photography and specifically said I am an amateur looking to gain experience.
> ...



He's going to hunt for photographers!


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## Missdaisy (Sep 11, 2009)

Plato said:


> Missdaisy said:
> 
> 
> > N0YZE said:
> ...


 
I suppose he'll shoot them with his camera. :er:


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## PhotoXopher (Sep 11, 2009)

Go along with hunters (pheasant, turkey, deer, duck, whatever) and capture their experience, and with any luck the action as well.


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## eric-holmes (Sep 11, 2009)

I didn't mean to start an argument guys. I just hate to see people pay for work and get less than work.


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## Missdaisy (Sep 11, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> Go along with hunters (pheasant, turkey, deer, duck, whatever) and capture their experience, and with any luck the action as well.


 
Cool, me too, just whitetail deer and turkey hunts though.  My husband films hunts and I shoot the pics.  He's got major buck fever, bow season in MO starts Tuesday.


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## PhotoXopher (Sep 11, 2009)

Very cool! How do you like it?


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## Missdaisy (Sep 11, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> Very cool! How do you like it?


 
It's a lot of fun!  The videography side of it is a little stressfull and requires a lot of late nights editing but it'll be worth it eventually. 
I just shoot on my family farm so I don't have to search for hunters to take pics of.  
So did you just put up an ad for any hunter that wants his/her pics taken?


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## BigMcLargeHuge (Sep 11, 2009)

They have to start somewhere..To become good at anything requires practice. Maybe they start to early but they will learn or fail.


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## manaheim (Sep 11, 2009)

Any rant starts and argument.

If you'd like to start several more, let me suggest some excellent topics for you...

- Nikon/Canon sucks
- The following people are not worthy of the title professional
- You have to have a xxxMP camera in order to take good pictures
- Anyone using cheap glass is an idiot
- Amiga rulz

This handy dandy guide brought to you in part by Downy Soap.


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 11, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Any rant starts and argument.
> 
> If you'd like to start several more, let me suggest some excellent topics for you...
> 
> ...



How could you forget the "HDR rules/sucks" one?


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## manaheim (Sep 11, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> How could you forget the "HDR rules/sucks" one?


 
Oh sheesh.  Such an obvious one.  Good call.  I should edit/amend my list.


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## chammer (Sep 11, 2009)

manaheim said:


> - Amiga rulz



no arguments there!


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## PhotoXopher (Sep 11, 2009)

Missdaisy said:


> So did you just put up an ad for any hunter that wants his/her pics taken?



Yeah, so anyone local can call or email me if they want and I'll tag along - they'll shoot with bow/guns and I'll shoot with my camera.


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## Dominantly (Sep 11, 2009)

eric-holmes said:


> I didn't mean to start an argument guys. I just hate to see people pay for work and get less than work.


What are you talking about?
Good job with the thread though.. I mean I haven't been here all that long, but I feel as though I have seen quite a few of these threads.

Here is another fun one you can post in
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/176929-really.html


But really, who cares. I think people who get bothered by it should go stick their head in the sand until they've got it together enough to be a grown up.

As for your comment above, you took a long shot on that one. You probably do not know the circumstances surrounding the relationship and the deal involved (family, friends, strangers, free, cheap, expensive, etc).


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## manaheim (Sep 11, 2009)

chammer said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > - Amiga rulz
> ...


 
OH THAT'S IT, BUDDY!!! YOU ARE SO DEAD!!!

:lmao:


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 11, 2009)

I don't have a camera, just a nice collection of lenses. Can I shoot a wedding? How much should I charge?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 11, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I don't have a camera, just a nice collection of lenses. Can I shoot a wedding? How much should I charge?


 
No, but you can burn ants, and you probably shouldn't charge too much.


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## PhotoXopher (Sep 11, 2009)

Anyone want to trade me their Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 with internal focus motor for my D60?


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## chammer (Sep 11, 2009)

manaheim said:


> OH THAT'S IT, BUDDY!!! YOU ARE SO DEAD!!!
> :lmao:



oooooooh....i see what you did there!


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## dtzitko (Sep 11, 2009)

Who cares. Sure you don't like to see somebody pay for something when they can get better, but that's their problem. If they like it that's all that matters. Photography, is an art form. Argue with me about that if you want, but it really is. It's a completely subjective matter, there really is no wrong way to do it; as long as the person taking the photos enjoys it and likes the outcome that's really all that matters. 

So if you make a little money, (or a lot)  what's the big deal? Look at it as icing on the cake. Don't see other people's profits in a negative way, use it to motivate yourself to do better. I'm no pro by a long shot, but if somebody offered to pay me to take pictures of something. I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I'd probably do it for free if they asked me (ok well maybe if they picked up the bar tab one night or something).


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## MelissaMarieImagery (Sep 11, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with someone who takes pride in their work wanting to start a business in hopes that it will one day be successful. If they suck, they won't get work, if someone is willing to pay them and is pleased with the outcome, then what is the harm?


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## SrBiscuit (Sep 11, 2009)

sorry to go off on a tangent real quick, but donatello, why do you seem to triple and quadruple post in many threads?
just curious.


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## photo28 (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, and copy everyone elses posts.....


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## dtzitko (Sep 11, 2009)

SrBiscuit said:


> sorry to go off on a tangent real quick, but donatello, why do you seem to triple and quadruple post in many threads?
> just curious.



Because he's an effing troll.


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## photo28 (Sep 11, 2009)

went to 144 posts last I saw in one day... almost scary. Not real posts though, just 8 posts  in the same thread when you can combine the 4 and make it one.


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## NateWagner (Sep 11, 2009)

dtzitko said:


> Photography, is an art form. Argue with me about that if you want, but it really is. It's a completely subjective matter, there really is no wrong way to do it; as long as the person taking the photos enjoys it and likes the outcome that's really all that matters.



This is where, at least to an extent I would disagree with you. While there may be no wrong way to do photography, out of focus may be what you're going for, you can still take what is generally accepted to be terrible photos. 

Where the problem is, and where I would suggest that there is a wrong way to do it, is when the person with little to no experience shoots a wedding by him/herself completely screws it up (or in your terms does subjective art) that the bride and groom really dislikes, but guess what, they are screwed (unless they pursue it in court), because this was a one time event and they can't get those events back they can't recreate the emotions, nor the guest list, the sky etc. Once it's gone it's gone. This is where people who don't have the skill can screw it up, if they don't know how to properly work their camera's, and they don't know how to take a compositionally pleasing image, and they aren't prepared for the emotions nor how to be ready for the events of the day they can do this "art" wrong. 

If you want to take photos just for yourself, then sure, go for it. If you're taking photos to sell in a gallery type setting then who am I to judge your shots (unless I want to purchase one). However, if you're doing it for someone else, that's when you are able to screw things up, and that's when there is a standard you should be held to prior to being able to open up shop.


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## dtzitko (Sep 12, 2009)

Eh, I'll agree to disagree with you Nate.


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## Montana (Sep 12, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Any rant starts and argument.
> 
> If you'd like to start several more, let me suggest some excellent topics for you...
> 
> ...


 

Dude, no "UV filter/no UV filter" argument?


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## Dominantly (Sep 12, 2009)

Clearly:

UV Filter
Nikon
Ansel Adams
12.1
Clearly, that's why it's cheap.
Amiga does not rule, in fact.....


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## shed301 (Sep 12, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Any rant starts and argument.
> 
> If you'd like to start several more, let me suggest some excellent topics for you...
> 
> ...



darn i use at least 3 of those topics

pentax users 
12 mp
cheap glass user.. love em. <------- Idiot

*takes a bow and mutters*
THANKS


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## DennyCrane (Sep 13, 2009)

George Carlin said that somewhere, there's the worst doctor in the world. By process of elimination, he's out there and he's got patients. So, the world's worst professional photographer must be out there, too. And he's taking pictures for cash. 

In my humble opinion, hacks make the pro's just look that much better.


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