# Question for pros



## volleysnap (Jan 23, 2008)

To any pro out there:  I have a question 

I would call myself an "advanced amateur" in photography.  About a year ago, I started a website advertising myself as a photographer.  I've had moderate success in finding clients (probably 2 a month in the winter, more in the summer), and done very well on every job I have taken.  I've never had any formal training and as you can see from my signature, my equipment is not exactly top of the line.  I never advertise myself as a pro, and in fact am pretty forward about my limitations as a photographer (i am in high school after all)
Recently, I received recognition in a well publicized contest, resulting in over 15,000 visitors to my site in about a month.  I received hundreds of emails, but one left more of an impression on me.  It was from a professional photographer basically stating that I was doing my clients a disservice because I am not educated highly enough in photography and do not own the nicest equipment.  It obviously hurt my feelings a little, but it made me wonder if most pros feel this way.  I don't feel that I take business away from pros as I advertise myself as a budget photographer for people who usually couldn't afford to go to a professional studio.  

These weren't directed towards me, but another example I found on craigslist were some angry posts by photographers directed towards people who perhaps unwittingly took a job that was too difficult for them.  The response was along the same lines.

I would love to hear the opinion of some other pro photographers.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?  I'm not looking for reassurance... just curious about the topic in general.


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## jstuedle (Jan 23, 2008)

Everyone starts somewhere. As long as you are up-front and don't claim to be what you are not, I think you will be fine. As you grow your experience base, you will be more accepted and your equipment will improve if that's what you want. I started shooting in-house baby portraits and weddings in my teens. That was in the late 1960's. As I said, we all start somewhere. BTW, a few evening classes at the community college is well within your abilities. Any education you can pick up is a plus.


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## Big Mike (Jan 24, 2008)

As long as you are running a legal business...I have no problems.  If you are taking client's money, you should be paying taxes and have a business license etc.  Otherwise, you would be doing business illegally and I can see why established pros would be upset.

However, nobody has the right to be mad at you for being successful with no education and lower level equipment. (well maybe they have the _right_ to be mad...but it's their problem, not yours) :er:
Photography doesn't require accreditation like a doctor, lawyer or engineer.

If they are wasting their time and energy on harassing you...they probably have problems of their own.

As John said, everyone has to start somewhere.


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## MichaelT (Jan 24, 2008)

Big Mike made a very good comment, that if they are taking time to harass you, they probably have big problems of their own.

I've been a professional for 30 years, and one of my favorite things is teaching others to do better photography.  If one of my students got recognition, I would be their biggest fan!

One thing to consider, that one of the most important decisions a professional photographer makes is the quality of the education they pursue.  In other words, it's something that continues for life and a percentage of your photography income should be set aside to pay for the best education you can find.


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## skieur (Jan 24, 2008)

Education in photography is not always necessary but education itself is important.  It is interesting when people recognize you as being well-educated before they are even aware of your background.  It is also quite important if as a photographer you are also dealing with professionals as potential customers.  It helped when I was script writing and editing for television, doing photojournalism, and writing voice overs for my multimedia work and then translating them into other languages as well as for many other projects.

However as has been said, everyone started somewhere.  I was a school kid who was asked to take a group photo of the Board of Trustees for a large urban area and later to do photos for a textbook as well as illustrate the Phd thesis of the Director of Education.  From there the variety of work increased exponentially.

I certainly did not have the time nor the interest in what other photographers were doing in their businesses and would certainly not condone any comments from them about my business.  Ignore them.  They are the ones with problems.

skieur


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## craig (Jan 24, 2008)

Take it with a grain of salt. All you can do is your best. Sounds like it has been good so far. Keep in mind that you are at the beginning of your photo journey. Education and better gear will come soon enough.

Criticism comes all the time. Use it to your advantage.

Love & Bass


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## Saint-Brown (Jan 25, 2008)

There will always be people who want to knock you down when you have something they don't.  Don't listen to them.  Don't worry about your equipment, like the others have said better equipment will come, so will the desire to "get educated".  Sometimes expirence is the best teacheer.

Keep doing what you are doing and just work to make your clients happy.


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## petey (Jan 25, 2008)

Depants the rude professional.:thumbdown:

The next time he looks at you with his smug, condescending eyes grab him by the nose and punch his lights out.:meh:

Then take him out for lunch and ask him lots of newbie questions.


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## EOS_JD (Jan 25, 2008)

Jealousy.......

You got the credit and he didn't!!

If you posted here I might say that you need better equipment but to be fair equipment does not make a good photographer.  Does help make otherwise impossible shots though.

I say hold your head high.


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## JIP (Jan 25, 2008)

Personally I am one who agrees with the gear sentiments.  When I was first getting into wedding photography I waited for some time before I statrted till I could afford what I (and the guy I was going to work for) thought was the right gear for the job.  I do have some photograpy education but I do not necesarrily think that is so important but there is no substitute for the right gear.


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## Christie Photo (Jan 25, 2008)

volleysnap said:


> ...one left more of an impression on me.  It was from a professional photographer basically stating that I was doing my clients a disservice because I am not educated highly enough in photography and do not own the nicest equipment.  It obviously hurt my feelings a little, but it made me wonder if most pros feel this way.  I don't feel that I take business away from pros...



Most pros don't feel like that, but there are a few.  And, this attitude is not only directed at part-timers like yourself, but also attacking others working pros in their market area.

Don't give it a second thought.

And, you CAN'T take any business from others.  Our clients are own to keep or loose.  If a client goes somewhere else, it's because I lost them.

Good luck!

-Pete


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## nossie (Jan 25, 2008)

> from a professional photographer basically stating that I was doing my clients a disservice


 
It's just his opinion.  You'll find some here that will give you the same point of view and obviously as you see in this thread some that don't.
That's life in general.


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## guitarkid (Jan 25, 2008)

Keep doing what you're doing. He took the time to email you to point out his insecurities. Sure, the better gear will help you, but it won't make you. When I read your paragraph, I never thought you were doing anyone a disservice. In fact, I was very impressed and thought...good for you! Wish I had that many hits on my site. For whatever reason, the photography industry is filled with people who have to make it known that they are "better than you" as much as possible. Why this field is filled with people like this, i don't know. So you're a part-timer, or a full-timer, if you're good you're good.  I know this one photographer who has been doing weddings only 2 years.  She is one of my favs and is only part time!  She has the gift.  Being in the music industry for close to 20 years, it is very cut throat and filled with attitudes, but nowhere near what there is in photography. Musicians, as competitive as they are, are generally more supportive and not so attacking. I know of rich kids where mommy and daddy buy $2000 guitars and amps and they never play or don't have it in them...meanwhile the kid down the street has a God-given talent playing on a $100 guitar. You get my point. Again, ignore him and do what you're doing...you must be doing something right, and you're honest. Congrats!


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## nossie (Jan 25, 2008)

guitarkid said:


> I know of rich kids where mommy and daddy buy $2000 guitars and amps and they never play or don't have it in them...meanwhile the kid down the street has a God-given talent playing on a $100 guitar. You get my point. Again, ignore him and do what you're doing...you must be doing something right, and you're honest. Congrats!


 
I certainly get your point. As a broke as kid playing guitar I could wipe the plate with a few of the boys with the big axes. Put it another way if Eric Clapton or Axel Rose was handed a $100 guitar to play on would he be a $h1+ guitarist? Nope.

Keep snapping kid, you're doing alright if that so called pro feels threatened.


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## RyanLilly (Jan 26, 2008)

nossie said:


> Keep snapping kid, you're doing alright if that so called pro feels threatened.


Bingo!

The So called "pro" must feel insecure about himself if he is wasting his time trying to tear down someone he doesn't even know. Really, you should feel good that this guy is impressed with your work enough to feel threatened. He sees that you can turn out better work with your modest equipment than he probably can with all of his "pro" gear, otherwise why would he bother to email you?


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## Antithesis (Jan 26, 2008)

In the right hands, bottom of the line gear can do some pretty cool stuff. Given, there are situations where you absolutely need a random piece of gear to get a shot or effect, but with a little creativity and a lot of expertise, that goes out the window. I don't really do any photography professionally, but I shot a wedding as a backup using an 18-55 kit lens for a lot of shots, and my shots were crisper and better looking than the shots coming from another person with a gold-ring 17-55 f2.8 that costs well over 10 times as much. Only becuase I was doing it for the experience and actually really enjoying myself. 

If people try to get in your way when your doing something your both good at and have a passion for, just side-step them. It's really unfortunate that there are people that knock the little guys in the photography industry, but whatever. F*** that guy.


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## CanonSnob (Aug 31, 2008)

Antithesis said:


> whatever. F*** that guy.



haha... like he said


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## epp_b (Aug 31, 2008)

Don't let it leave an impression.  Someone's just peeved that your getting the business that they aren't.  It's a scare tactic.  Ignore it and move on.

There is no "certification" or "accreditation" process to become a "professional" photographer.  As far as clients are concerned, it doesn't matter how many photography classes you attended, associations you are member of or letters behind your "photographer" title, the only thing that separates him and you are experience.  It seems you've done your clients the service of informing them as such.

Sounds like you have more professionalism in the form of acting like a decent human being than he does anyway.


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## photogoddess (Sep 1, 2008)

It's not the tool - it's the end result that matters. If I'm not mistaken, a Pulitzer prize winning photo was taken by an amateur  with a Brownie camera.  

If your clients are happy then you're doing just fine. Sour grapes are just that... sour.


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## ksmattfish (Sep 1, 2008)

volleysnap said:


> I've had moderate success in finding clients (probably 2 a month in the winter, more in the summer), and done very well on every job I have taken.
> 
> ...in fact am pretty forward about my limitations as a photographer
> 
> It was from a professional photographer basically stating that I was doing my clients a disservice because I am not educated highly enough in photography and do not own the nicest equipment.



Worry about what your clients think.  That's much more important than what your competition thinks.  I'd take the complaint as a compliment.  If you are enough of a threat to warrant a bitchy email then you must be doing something right.    It really burns a guy who spent $10,000 on camera gear when someone else comes along and makes much more exciting photos with much cheaper gear.  They want to pretend it's all about the gear and technical aspects, but those are only important to photo geeks.  The rest of the world is perfectly capable of looking at a portfolio and making up their own mind if they like the work or not.  Most of these folks will not ask how much the camera cost.

EDIT:  Some photographers insist that it's important to use high dollar gear because it shows the clients you are serious.  Here's my story as to why that's a waste of time worrying about.  Once upon a time, back in the days before digital, I was shooting some wedding formals, and the videographer walked up to me as I was breaking down after the session, and asked "Is that a Canon?".  "Nope", I replied, "it's a Hasselblad."  "Hmmmph!  I thought all professionals used Canon!", he said, and walked away disgusted that I was using some no-name, Swedish camera.  How can you impress people that really don't really understand the gear anyway?


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## laurentharari (Sep 1, 2008)

let them talk... A good gear never made a good photographer... Robert DOISNEAU one of my photographic hero, did its best shots with a rolleiflex !!! Old very old camera nothing as fancy as yours... Back in the 80's, I shot with a canon AE1 one of the picture I have most sold ( 20.000 ex.) I felt a little like you, but god when the check was coming in it felt so good !!! Keep the good work. What is your website by the way ?
Laurent

http://www.buyphotoarts.com


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## Christie Photo (Sep 1, 2008)

epp_b said:


> There is no "certification" or "accreditation" process to become a "professional" photographer.



Well....  there IS this:

http://www.ppa.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=14


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## epp_b (Sep 1, 2008)

Indeed, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything to a potential customer.  It's still not like saying "I went to Harvard for blah blah blah"


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## Christie Photo (Sep 1, 2008)

epp_b said:


> Indeed, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything to a potential customer.  It's still not like saying "I went to Harvard for blah blah blah"



And why not?  Really....  it says I've met certain criteria to assure you I am competent.

Are you familiar with the certification process of the PPA?

-Pete


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## Big Mike (Sep 1, 2008)

Photography is an art...and as such, a photographer doesn't need a 'permit to practice' the way a doctor, lawyer or engineer needs to have.  

That being said, there are organizations that do offer accreditation, such as the PPA.  One benefit of that is that you can tell or show your potential clients that you accepted as competent by your piers.  

Of course, it is not a necessity...and a good portfolio and good results will trump all.


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## Christie Photo (Sep 2, 2008)

Big Mike said:


> ...and a good portfolio and good results will trump all.



Absolutely!  

I just want to make a point that there's something to be said about being certified.  So often here, it seems that being a pro means nothing.  I suspect it's because so many people who work as photographers are not qualified.  But the vast majority of full-time photographers with established studios (more than 3 years) will do an adequate job most every time.

Certification is an assurance that the maker's portfolio IS adequate.  I can't remember if it's 20 or 25 prints required, but each applicant must submit a collection of 8x10 prints from thier customer files that is representative of the of the type of photography done.  So, in my case, I would have to submit one or two wedding candids, three or four portraits, and the rest from my commercial clients.  These prints are then judged by a panel of working photographers (not clients) to prove creative ability and to meet a high standard.  Remember...  the judges have a solid background in lighting, posing, etc.  Each print is not judged individually.  The entire collection is judged "in or out."  And once again, the images are from customer files...  not shot just for the portfolio.

All this in addition to passing an in-depth written exam to show technical knowledge.  I've seen the test.  Most of us would have to study to score well.

And, for the record, I chose not to certify.  The program (introduced in 1977) was just getting some footing in my state 25 years ago while I was a member of the PPofA.  They promised a very visible print and TV promotional program to educate the public about Certified Professional Photographers (CPPs).  I thought I'd wait and see if they'd follow through because their Qualified Program for commercial and industrial photographers seemed to have lost it's steam.  I recall one CPP print ad in a national bridal magazine.  I don't know if they did anything more.  It was a bit of investment to certify.  Then it was $100 to take the exam, in addition to the annual PPofA dues...  not to mention the cost of print production.  So, I'm still waiting.

But, yes Mike....  you're absolutely on the money (as usual).  It's  consistently  getting good results that matters.  Certification simply says that you do.

-Pete


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## Village Idiot (Sep 2, 2008)

photogoddess said:


> *It's not the tool - it's the end result that matters.* If I'm not mistaken, a Pulitzer prize winning photo was taken by an amateur with a Brownie camera.
> 
> If your clients are happy then you're doing just fine. Sour grapes are just that... sour.


 
It's funny you should say this. The guy's a tool and the only way it'll matter is if the OP lets him get to them in the end.


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## PhilGarber (Sep 2, 2008)

jstuedle said:


> Everyone starts somewhere. As long as you are up-front and don't claim to be what you are not, I think you will be fine. As you grow your experience base, you will be more accepted and your equipment will improve if that's what you want. I started shooting in-house baby portraits and weddings in my teens. That was in the late 1960's. As I said, we all start somewhere. BTW, a few evening classes at the community college is well within your abilities. Any education you can pick up is a plus.




Yeah, man, if your up-front about your skill level, that dude was probably just a jerk.


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## ksmattfish (Sep 2, 2008)

laurentharari said:


> let them talk... A good gear never made a good photographer... Robert DOISNEAU one of my photographic hero, did its best shots with a rolleiflex !!! Old very old camera nothing as fancy as yours...



I agree with your point about the gear not making the photographer, but a Rolleiflex TLR would have been considered one of the top hand held camera choices for pros in Doisneau's day, and it still is for some.    A new Rollei TLR costs $4500; almost as much as a Nikon D3.  I was using a Rolleiflex TLR for professional work as recently as three years ago.  While it doesn't have all the features and gizmos we've gotten used to with modern cameras, it's got everything I really need, and it's image quality is as good as it gets.  My Rolleiflex is one of the few film cameras I own that is still increasing in value, and it's probably one of the few film cameras I'll ever use again.  If you are using a Rolleiflex, you are using one of the best cameras ever made.


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## photographyaddict (Sep 2, 2008)

I don't think you should let one negative email get you down, man. It's not worth it to be stressing about it. He's probably threatened and trying to get you to quit while you're at it. If you're already getting so much work and you're just in high school as you say, then, I really think you're the real deal and you shouldn't let self-doubt get in the way. It's a dog eat dog business, really. You just have to have faith in your own talent. And the equipment really isn't as important as the talent.


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## Bifurcator (Sep 3, 2008)

volleysnap said:


> It obviously hurt my feelings a little, but it made me wonder if most pros feel this way.



Except for some Native American cultures westerners make competition a very big part of their businesses and lives. Part of the western idea of competition is squashing and/or out-doing those around them. Any reason recognizable or rationalize-able as a legitimate "wedge-issue" can and is used by those traveling the road of competition or as some say "climbing the ladder of success". Both are false concepts IMHO but that doesn't prevent the majority of westerners from participating. 

So, yes, I would have to say whether or not they're/we're willing to admit it here in text, that indeed "most pros" do feel this way to some extent at least. 




> I don't feel that I take business away from pros as I advertise myself as a budget photographer for people who usually couldn't afford to go to a professional studio.
> 
> These weren't directed towards me, but another example I found on craigslist were some angry posts by photographers directed towards people who perhaps unwittingly took a job that was too difficult for them.  The response was along the same lines.
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?  I'm not looking for reassurance... just curious about the topic in general.



My advice as always is to ignore the idiots (including the federal government and "pro photographers" !!!) on such matters and do what you want to do within the realm of fair-play.


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