# Strobes + SpeedLights w D810



## kdthomas (Nov 24, 2014)

OK, so I have my speedos set up and working with a pocketwizard-esque device that *physically blocks the built-in flash from coming up all the way*. No worries there. But lets say that I wanted to bring the speedlights into the mix.

I now have commander mode on the new D810. I want to use the speedlights in manual mode: "OK speedlights, don't try to be cute. Just shut the hell up and fire at the power level I've set you to, when I pull the trigger"

So I hit the shutter, set at 1/125. The speedlights and the strobes will fire at the same instant.

edit: I also detest those monitor pre-flashes. I'd like to be rid of them

Can I do this?


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## beachrat (Nov 24, 2014)

Well,you can't use commander if the built in isn't popped up,so just set the speedlights to fire in optical slave mode(SU-4 for Nikons).


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## qleak (Nov 24, 2014)

kdthomas said:


> OK, so I have my speedos set up and working with a pocketwizard-esque device that *physically blocks the built-in flash from coming up all the way*. No worries there. But lets say that I wanted to bring the speedlights into the mix.
> 
> I now have commander mode on the new D810. I want to use the speedlights in manual mode: "OK speedlights, don't try to be cute. Just shut the hell up and fire at the power level I've set you to, when I pull the trigger"
> 
> So I hit the shutter, set at 1/125. The speedlights and the strobes will fire at the same instant.



I'll take a stab at this setup. You have 2 x sb700s right? If you have 3 pocket wizard transceivers you're set just use them. Here are some other options:

(2 transceivers): Set up one flash in su-4 optical trigger mode and the other on the transceiver.

(no transceivers CLS): Ditch the transceivers and use the D810 built-in flash to trigger.
You could use the Nikon Creative Lighting system, but that uses pre-flash to synchronize and set levels. That's when you'd use the commander mode. It would make it so that the builtin flash only fires before the frame is open to say: "Hey dudes! go off in 1/5 second" or something like that

(no transceivers SU-4): Ditch the transceivers and set both SB700's to SU-4 remote mode. You will probably want to set them to manual also and adjust their power to what you want before you shoot it's probably best to stop down and raise the power somewhere around 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 to make the built-in flash less significant (unless you want to use the builtin flash). You'll need to set your built-in flash to manual too. I'd go 1/128 power (or whatever the lowest d810 setting is), because all you need is the "pop" to trigger the other flashes.  If you're able to put the camera flash at low enough power relative to the sb700's it won't affect the exposure much, don't forget the inverse square law too, by having your SB700's closer you will get less relative exposure from the built-in flash.




> edit: I also detest those monitor pre-flashes. I'd like to be rid of them



To fully get rid of pre-flashes you need to shut off TTL flash and not use nikon CLS (su-4 mode is king then).

Best,

-Q


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## qleak (Nov 24, 2014)

ahh.. okay I think i understand you conundrum a little better, when using the transceiver attached to the hotshoe commander mode is not active on the d810 body as it should be tied only to the builtin flash (like the d7100) it treats the transceiver like an attached flash. 

The manual on page 331 of the d810
Specifies that commander mode is only for the built-in flash.

You may have to set the camera to manual mode to get rid of TTL preflashes which would be broadcast by your transceiver, I'm not 100% sure on this.


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## beachrat (Nov 24, 2014)

I think he's already triggering a full set of Speedotron strobes and wants to add the speedlights to the mix.
In that case,unless he has 2 more receivers,the opticals should work fine.


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## qleak (Nov 24, 2014)

beachrat said:


> I think he's already triggering a full set of Speedotron strobes and wants to add the speedlights to the mix.
> In that case,unless he has 2 more receivers,the opticals should work fine.



I must have missed that bit. Only tricky bit then is to set the sb700's to su-4 remote mode and manual mode. You'll have to set the settings on the sb700's manually


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## Derrel (Nov 24, 2014)

I have used this type of optical slave a "household" or 2-bladed style, since 1986. Shut off the pre-flash nonsense with the Nikons, get the nNikons synchronizing with their own kind, and the Speedo pack with this slave will fire at the right time as all the other flashes fire.

FlashZebra.com: Optical Slave &ndash; Extended Range Version &ndash; with HH Sync Connector &ndash; Sonia Brand (Item #0256)


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## beachrat (Nov 24, 2014)

qleak said:


> beachrat said:
> 
> 
> > I think he's already triggering a full set of Speedotron strobes and wants to add the speedlights to the mix.
> ...


Another option would be to use the commander in manual mode(no pre flash) to fire the SB-700s, and trip the Speedo with a plug in optical.



edit: Derrel beat me to it


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## qleak (Nov 24, 2014)

beachrat said:


> Another option would be to use the commander in manual mode(no pre flash) to fire the SB-700s, and trip the Speedo with a plug in optical.



No using the Nikon CLS commander mode will always have pre-flashes, that's just how it communicates with the other flash groups.


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## beachrat (Nov 24, 2014)

No using the Nikon CLS commander mode will always have pre-flashes, that's just how it communicates with the other flash groups.[/QUOTE]

Damn,that's right.


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## Derrel (Nov 24, 2014)

How about pure optical slave triggering on everything? Or radio triggering on the speedlights, and a household slave on the Speedotron pack? Flashzebra.com has alllllllllllll the possible flashes and or cords one would need for triggering a mix of things.


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## kdthomas (Nov 25, 2014)

Derrel said:


> I have used this type of optical slave a "household" or 2-bladed style, since 1986. Shut off the pre-flash nonsense with the Nikons, get the nNikons synchronizing with their own kind, and the Speedo pack with this slave will fire at the right time as all the other flashes fire.
> 
> FlashZebra.com: Optical Slave &ndash; Extended Range Version &ndash; with HH Sync Connector &ndash; Sonia Brand (Item #0256)



Great info guys thanx ... Derrel do you ever run into sync speed issues at 1/125 with this type of setup?


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## Derrel (Nov 25, 2014)

No, but I have Pocket Wizard triggers, and a good, high-grade genuine Wein brand slave for the Speedotrons. I have used the Wein slave for a lot of years, and it's not a cheap, MIC model--it was around $70 when it was finally discontinued in favor of the newer, headphone style. Different triggers can cause synch issues, and there's always a possibility that "mixed environment setups" will NOT reach the full 1/250 synch limit, or even 1/200, or even 1/180 or 1/160 or whatever. But that should not matter one bit indoors, shooting at 1/125 or even 1/60 second. In fact 1/125 was the top synch speed throughout pretty much the entire decade of the 1970's on all focal plane shutters; 1/125 was considered a "fast" X-synch speed for a FP shutter.

The very first area to check on e-Bay triggers are the batteries. I've seen reports of slow max synchronization speeds when the batteries are low, and reports of full capabilities restored when new batteries are installed. Interesting, I checke d eBay tonight and there is a TON of really weird Speedo stuff for sale tonight! I saw an MW3 flash head for $69 buy it now priced.


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## WayneF (Nov 25, 2014)

kdthomas said:


> OK, so I have my speedos set up and working with a pocketwizard-esque device that *physically blocks the built-in flash from coming up all the way*. No worries there. But lets say that I wanted to bring the speedlights into the mix.
> 
> I now have commander mode on the new D810. I want to use the speedlights in manual mode: "OK speedlights, don't try to be cute. Just shut the hell up and fire at the power level I've set you to, when I pull the trigger"
> 
> ...




You will have serious issues mixing Commander with any other manual flash gear.

The Commander "Manual" mode is the furthest thing from real Manual mode.

Manual mode, we set a power level in the remote flash, and then simply trigger it.

Commander Manual, first the commander has to flash signals to set the power level in the remote flash (from the Commander menu). Then the shutter opens and the flashes are triggered.   Other real manual optical slaves have already fired though, from the command signal.

This incompatibility (commander with manual gear)  has been actively discussed for years.

You cannot even use a flash meter to meter the commanders remote flashes. To make them flash, all you will meter is the weak initial command.

Opening the internal flash door for commander automatically disconnects the cameras PC sync connection.

There are a couple of fluke workarounds for a couple of specific cases, but generally, this is a troublesome route to choose.

The correct way is to simply choose one, either a manual system or a commander system, and go with it.

If using manual flash, forget commander, and simply put the remote Nikon speedlights into SU-4 mode. This is REAL manual mode with conventional optical slave.  Or put radio triggers on them, again, real manual flash mode.


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## Braineack (Nov 25, 2014)

why aren't we just putting the Speedlights in SU-4 mode?


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## beachrat (Nov 25, 2014)

Braineack said:


> why aren't we just putting the Speedlights in SU-4 mode?



After suggesting that in my first post,I realized that it's just not complicated enough.


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## kdthomas (Nov 25, 2014)

So ... in SU4 mode the SB700's will recognize that the main strobes just went off and that means they also need to fire as well. DO I have that right? I basically want one single big flash essentially all at once.

What I'm really worried about is the subject reacting to the flash, and eyes start to close, etc.


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## Braineack (Nov 25, 2014)

That's how I fire my speedlights (including an SB700) when mixed with strobes.

I typically just use one radio trigger on either a speedlight or strobe and put the rest in slave mode.

I only add more radio triggers if the positioning means they can't be optically triggered.

I do realize this isn't complicated enough, so your results may vary


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## qleak (Nov 25, 2014)

When optical slaves are used David Hobby (strobist) says "The more the merrier!"

You can see his explanation here


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## beachrat (Nov 25, 2014)

kdthomas said:


> So ... in SU4 mode the SB700's will recognize that the main strobes just went off and that means they also need to fire as well. DO I have that right? I basically want one single big flash essentially all at once.




Yes. SU-4 is Nikons built in optical slave mode.
They won't have the distance range that a set of Pocket Wizards will,but they're very reliable.


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## kdthomas (Nov 25, 2014)

Braineack said:


> That's how I fire my speedlights (including an SB700) when mixed with strobes.
> 
> I typically just use one radio trigger on either a speedlight or strobe and put the rest in slave mode.
> 
> ...





beachrat said:


> kdthomas said:
> 
> 
> > So ... in SU4 mode the SB700's will recognize that the main strobes just went off and that means they also need to fire as well. DO I have that right? I basically want one single big flash essentially all at once.
> ...



Well okay then! ... I think I'll try this first ...I'm all for not buying more stuff. I'm already under indentured servitude as it is, after buying that D810 ... holy smokes. 

Thanks everyone for the help !!!


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## WayneF (Nov 25, 2014)

kdthomas said:


> So ... in SU4 mode the SB700's will recognize that the main strobes just went off and that means they also need to fire as well. DO I have that right? I basically want one single big flash essentially all at once.
> 
> What I'm really worried about is the subject reacting to the flash, and eyes start to close, etc.




Yes.  That is what SU-4 is.   SU-4 was originally an external optical slave unit, but now it is built into many Nikon flash models.

Your main strobes all have optical slave triggers in them, and I assume you only trigger one of them, and the others follow when they see the first flash.   It simply just works.

Nikon SU-4 mode is the exact same thing, an optical slave trigger, a very excellent one, actually with additional features (for film TTL), and greater sensitivity than about any others.

Changing subject, but the Nikon Commander is faulted for being line of sight, light only goes in straight lines and can be blocked, so the flash has be where it can see the commander.

SU-4 is also optical, but the difference is, Commander uses a very weak (minimum weak) flash signal to communicate with the remotes, but optical slaves are triggered by the full working power of the other flashes.  Which are usually multiple, and not on the camera, and one of them will do it.  

So, Nikon SU-4 is virtually fail safe in any reasonable indoor studio.  I am speaking of living rooms, but wherever you put it, however you aim it, some reflected light will reach it, and it will trigger.


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## beachrat (Nov 25, 2014)

WayneF said:


> .




_*
Your main strobes all have optical slave triggers in them, and I assume you only trigger one of them, and the others follow when they see the first flash.   It simply just works.*_
.[/QUOTE]

His main strobes are a Speedotron pack and head system.


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## WayneF (Nov 25, 2014)

beachrat said:


> His main strobes are a Speedotron pack and head system.




OK, but the SU-4 mode slaves still work fine.


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