# Just a quick message for the beginners (and pros as well)



## rub (May 28, 2008)

Today I was quite frusterated that no one else commented on the photos I posted.  And that got me thinking...how many times have I commented on someone elses photos.  Hmmm, about the same numberas people have commented on mine.

I guess I feel that because I am learning, what I say might not be "correct."  But you know what, if a picture makes me say Oh, I like that! Wow, thats incedible! Oh, geez, that could really use some work on the exposure or composition. Or that subject doesn't appeal to me at all -- I'm gonna say it.

I know we all have busy lives, but for the amount of time I come here and browse, what would it take for me to spend 5 mins and give a little C&C.  Nothing, at all.

So for all you new people who want some feedback, who want advice on what camera to buy, which lens to get, how to break into wedding photography or anything else, make sure you give something back as well.
I'm sure even the seasoned pros around here would like to get a few comments on the photographs they post.

ps - Thanks to everyone who provides such great information on this site.  Hope I can return the favor in some way, some day.  And expect to see me posting a  lot more in the future.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 28, 2008)

In my opinion, no matter what your level of experience, your opinion is valuable.  I take everyone's thoughts on my photos into account, regardless of how long they've been doing this.

Even if you can't articulate why you like a photo everyone likes to hear that you like what you see.


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## caspertodd (May 28, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> Even if you can't articulate why you like a photo everyone likes to hear that you like what you see.


 
Not necessarily, there are some people here that genuinely get pissed off when you tell them that you like their photo with no explanation.


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## asfixiate (May 28, 2008)

Did I comment?  I can only be on this forum while at work on and off or at home depending on what time it is.


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## christopher walrath (May 28, 2008)

There are probably others here, but I generally avoid 'C&C me' type threads.  Just me.


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

christopher walrath said:


> There are probably others here, but I generally avoid 'C&C me' type threads.  Just me.



me too... there are SOOO many new "first shot CC" threads on here each day, if i viewed them all I would be sitting here forever... I have found too that since dslr's are becoming cheaper, more and more people are buying them, and you get a lot of the same shots... I've found MOST (not all) of the first shot cc threads are all of the same things... flowers, pets, babies, sunsets, then it is inevitable that someone will also post a picture of a waterfall and say "how do I make mine look like this" and they post a picture of a waterfall with a long shutter.... .... and they all tend to just blend together after a while, so i've just stopped posting on them, unless they really wow me for "first shots"


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## GeorgiaOwl (May 29, 2008)

Then, there might just be alot of jerks here.  LOL


I agree with the OP.


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

if that makes me a jerk, i guess i'm a jerk


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

christopher walrath said:


> There are probably others here, but I generally avoid 'C&C me' type threads. Just me.


 
I do as well. 

I mean... if you cannot tell if your own picture is too dark or too bright or blurred or crooked, you don't need me to tell you that. Beginner C&C is 90% based on the above, so I do not get involved in the request for C&C in the beginner threads. 

I do look in the proper forum for that, but if someone already expressed my thoughts, I will not post.

If that makes me a jerk, well, it seems we have a pretty good club of jerks going, so just add me to the list.


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## Jedo_03 (May 29, 2008)

see here...

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124441

:er:

Jedo


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## tirediron (May 29, 2008)

Some interesting comments; I had thought one of the main purposes of the photo galleries was to showcase photographer's work for comment & critique.  I like to think of myself as, at the very least, a semi-skilled photographer, but I certainly always appreciate input from others.   In large part because I've learned that what I like is not necessarily what everyone else likes, and if you're trying to flog a photo or two to earn a new lens, well, guess what, you have to go with what "they" like, and not always what you like.

As for the comments relating to "too many noobies posting the same thing" really, how long does it take to look a half-dozen images, mention things like a brightening, straightened horizon, suggestion for a crop...  Unfortunately, because I will only have a work connection to the Internet 'til late in the fall, I'm very limited.  I no longer have access to Flickr, Photobucket, or any of the more commonly used hosting services.  That said, I will stop by as best my bandwidth allows, and offer what I believe is the most appropriate comment I can, when I am able.

We were all beginners once!


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

we were all beginners.. as was i... but i didnt post my flower pics because i saw how many people posted flower pics... i waited until "I" was happy with my pictures, I didn't pull my d40 out of the box, take 5 pictures and then post them... I waitied months, practiced, studied, and learned, THEN when things were looking good to my eye, I went for the opinion of the masses


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

In the case of beginner C&C, what do the newbies want? Some come for the pat on the back and ego boost, but most want to know how to improve. Now, if the advice offered was above their heads (as it would be for anyone that has no knowledge base becuase they ARE new), a lot of the critical advice would be pretty much wasted.

For me to start posting to someone saying brighten up, contrast more, straighten the horizon, sharpen more, saturate less, etc... Come on, do we really need to go there? Is that not something that anyone with a pair of eyes could not just as easily see in their own pics?

I think that C&C doesn't become a USEFUL tool until the beginner is a little less of a beginner. Let's say after they've taken a couple thousand pics and learned the difference between the "A" on the lens and the "A" on the camera body.

Personally, I did not need anyone to tell me my pics are blurry or crooked and I don't see the need to tell someone else the obvious either.

I think that this kinda leads me into a pet peeve that sprung out from another thread.  People are just conditioned into being too lazy to do their own leg-work.  The internet makes everything a one click solution so, instead of taking 10 min to look at their own work, they pull the camera out of the box, take 5 pics and post asking for help.  Well, thats not the biggest issue... what is the biggest issue is that when you tell them to read their manual or (heaven forbid) do a search, they get insulted!

Maybe I am getting a little frustrated with this attitude, and it is starting to show up in my posts, but I haven't yet been PMed by a moderator frowing and wagging a finger at me to watch it... maybe becuase they too are starting to feel that way?  

I'll stop now.


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## Jedo_03 (May 29, 2008)

tirediron said:


> Some interesting comments; I had thought one of the main purposes of the photo galleries was to showcase photographer's work for comment & critique. I like to think of myself as, at the very least, a semi-skilled photographer, but I certainly always appreciate input from others. In large part because I've learned that what I like is not necessarily what everyone else likes, and if you're trying to flog a photo or two to earn a new lens, well, guess what, you have to go with what "they" like, and not always what you like.
> 
> As for the comments relating to "too many noobies posting the same thing" really, how long does it take to look a half-dozen images, mention things like a brightening, straightened horizon, suggestion for a crop... Unfortunately, because I will only have a work connection to the Internet 'til late in the fall, I'm very limited. I no longer have access to Flickr, Photobucket, or any of the more commonly used hosting services. That said, I will stop by as best my bandwidth allows, and offer what I believe is the most appropriate comment I can, when I am able.
> 
> We were all beginners once!


 
I don't really want to get into specifics: but (Tirediron) you are being too generic here...
TRUE: forums enable showcasing and C&C - and while your images and many others may be worthy of C&C there are others which, frankly, are just mediocre (at best) and pooss pir (at worst)... Some images I have seen on here are way beyond "brightening", "horizon straightening", "suggestions for a crop" - they are seriously OOF, seriously blown-out, and even the word amateurish would be 'kind'...
No..! (Tirediron) "they" would seriously not pay money for such images...
And I will seriously not offer my comment to obvious crap photography that has been posted with "Whadya tink 'o these..?" headlines...
Man... The camera boffins have spent KryptoZillion$ developing and perfecting the tech of their brands - so there is little excuse for posting poor quality images... Beginners or not...
Nil Carborundum Illegitomi
Jedo


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

well said jedo... blunt and to the point... took the words out of my mouth


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

Jedo_03 said:


> Nil Carborundum Illegitomi
> Jedo


 
You'll have to forgive me, Latin is not one of the 9 languages that I speak, so help me out with this one... lol


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## mrodgers (May 29, 2008)

What chrisburke said....

I commented in a similar thread a while ago about how people were posting a list of 20 or so pictures, then at the end asking, "what do you think?"

"Ah, yeah, I think that's a lot of pictures....."

I doubt it was from my comment, but I do see much less of the posting of 20 photos in a single thread.

If you want to learn from your critiqued photos, the best way is to critique it yourself.  After your critique can no longer improve your own photo, then post a shot or up to 3 similar shots and ask for a specific area of critique.  It's much easier to critique a photo when there is a certain area of question about the photo.  Just reading and learning on the forum here an across the web about photography will solve many of the "it's over/under exposed, it's out of focus, it's not very interesting" comments of critiques.

Indeed, do not pull the camera out of the box for the first time, and come here to ask for critique on your first 5 images taken with the camera.  There is a mountain of information to learn by just reading this forum that will teach you far faster than sitting waiting for someone to comment on the 2nd shot from your camera ever.

I haven't posted many photos on here myself.  I am here to read this section and the "beyond beginners" section to learn about pretty much everything since I had no idea about any of it when I bought my camera.  I've taken 6000+ shots on my camera now since last December, and I already know what is wrong or not with every one of them without posting a photo for critique just from learning while reading the forum.  As I read more and try stuff like "meter the sky outdoors" or "meter your hand" and learn more about the functions of a camera, my photos improve constantly.  I was at a hockey game, and a few weeks afterwards, learned a bit more on this forum that would have helped me tremendously at the game.  All without posting a list of 20 photos here and asking at the end, "what do you think?"


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

"don't let the bastards grind you down" is what google told me... guess it was coined in WW2

*Illegitimi non carborundum* is a mock-Latin aphorism jokingly taken to mean "don't let the bastards grind you down"


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> "don't let the bastards grind you down" is what google told me... guess it was coined in WW2
> 
> *Illegitimi non carborundum* is a mock-Latin aphorism jokingly taken to mean "don't let the bastards grind you down"


 
ROFL!  One to add to my list, then!
"Ne illegitimi carbunculi tibi in facie sint"

:lmao:


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124812

Above is a thread of a noob with a "first pictures from camera out the box"

In this case the noob picked up a few idea's without disturbing anyone's life.  Was he lazy? This is matter of opinion depending on one persons particular style of learning.

Did people out there bothered by this type of poster have to respond? NO..

Did somebody out there with a little extra time on their hand help this student? YES..

Will this student most likely be inspired to continue their improvement?  YES..

Will this student most likely be inclined to help others when he becomes more knowlegable? PROBABLY YES..

Sometime noobs are sooooo noob.. they have yet to realize they must buy books and do serious study to take great images.  Sometimes people incorrectly think because they have just bought a great DSLR that it will take great images on their behalf.

I thought this.....  I got into photography because of the birth of my son and general disappointment with my point and shoot.  I've never posted pictures out of the box like the above link.... but I did have a certain expectation of my new camera's image quality and was surprised to find out the great cameras don't take great images... great photographers take great images...

I've been having a problem lately of people annoyed by the attached thread.  It is not incumbent upon anyone here to respond.  The people who choose to help will help.  The people who choose to move on will move on.  

Just food for thought..


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## Village Idiot (May 29, 2008)

rub said:


> Today I was quite frusterated that no one else commented on the photos I posted. And that got me thinking...how many times have I commented on someone elses photos. Hmmm, about the same numberas people have commented on mine.
> 
> I guess I feel that because I am learning, what I say might not be "correct." But you know what, if a picture makes me say Oh, I like that! Wow, thats incedible! Oh, geez, that could really use some work on the exposure or composition. Or that subject doesn't appeal to me at all -- I'm gonna say it.
> 
> ...


 
Please refer to one of the numerous other threads complaining about lack of people commenting on photos. :er:


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## rub (May 29, 2008)

Ah, interesting where this has gone. I guess my message was lost in translation.

I really posted this as a little wake up to the noobs, like me. Not as a cry for people to look at and comment on my pictures. That was not my intention at all.

I just seemed to notice how soooo many of the noobs ONLY post to ask questions (which I agree, many can figure out with a search) or to post pictures.

Most of the noobs NEVER comment on other pictures. They never give suggestions or advice to anyone. They just want to take take take. And in order for a forum to work, I believe that everyone needs to contribute.

Why should anyone expect feedback if they dont give it to others?

By saying that I was going to take the time to comment, I was not trying to say that anyone else should. Just that I want to be a contributing part of the disscussions here, and not just another noob who wants wants wants.


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## dslrchat (May 29, 2008)

Because I am an Extreme Noob, I post (waterfalls/flowers etc) because I really value yours and others opinions.

I also try and comment on some Photos, to see if I am correct and am actually learning.

I logged on today, created 2 C/C threads, (ahh yes, 1 with a waterfall)
then clicked new posts and found this one.

I am sorry if being a noob and asking questions and looking for C/C of the same things is tiresome for some, but that is the reason I joined here.
To learn and hopefully to improve enough to be able to then return the favour and help others to learn and improve.


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## Chewbecca (May 29, 2008)

hey, I am one of those "just took my very first DSLR out of the box last week" people.  I have not posted up any images yet because I am not looking for anyone to critique my images.  I am trying to figure out that portion on my own.
I am fully aware of how new I am to photography.  In fact, I am so new that I fall into the category of the newbie that needs the books.  And I've ordered them.

The first time I ever picked up a DSLR (I had never even touched a SLR, EVER), within 10 minutes, I think I was taking shots that I consider not bad.  Sure, I was not used to a viewfinder, so I was chopping things off in my pics, but I KNOW I have an eye for photography.  It just isn't as developed as those that have been taking pics for years and years and years.  I also know that I know more today, then I yesterday.  I DEFINITELY know more than I did last week when I got my very first DSLR.  I'm learning more everyday.  And the ideas keep growing.

But what is most disheartening to me is that, say I didn't learn the way I learn.  Say I wanted to take pics straight out of the box and post the first one, and ask for feedback?  Well, crap, now I know that annoys the piss out of at least a couple old-timers here.  Not only do I now have a feeling that if I post images and ask for corrective criticism that I'm annoying people, but now I feel like my seriousness for photography is being judged.
Well, now, that kind of sucks.  Because I thought this was the Beginners Place.  I thought this was kind of the purpose of this area of the boards?

How are we, as beginners (those of us that are beginners, that is), going to feel comfortable asking basic questions without feeling stupid, if we now know that posting images and asking for feedback is annoying some of the old-timers here?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if I posted an image I took and said, "Hey guys, this is what my camera was set at for this photo, could you tell me what I could do to improve this photo, or future similar photos?" is that ok?
And, believe me, I think I can speak for myself (even as a newbie) and say that if someone gives me advice, if I don't understand the advice given, I'll ask for further explanation.


And as far as giving feedback as a newbie, well, since I don't know what I'm really talking about in photography terms, I don't see what I have to say being very useful.  That's not to say that I won't compliment an image that I really like, but I surely cannot, at this point, tell an old-timer how to improve a pic.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

I do not generally comment because I'm not very confident in my knowledge yet, so it's not that I don't want to take the time to do so.  I don't really post much either for the same reason.  I will look through the photos and read the comments that others put so that I can learn, and every now and then I will comment on what I _think_ might be wrong or right.  Sometimes I will say that I really like their photo, and I try to tell them why (if I know why).  

If you are not getting the comments you need, then bump your post asking for more comments.  Some people might not have time today, but might tomorrow, and some people just look over posts accidentally.


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> How are we, as beginners (those of us that are beginners, that is), going to feel comfortable asking basic questions without feeling stupid...


 
I know that I use this analogy a lot, but we all want to be NASCAR drivers, but some of us are having issues knowing the difference between a steering wheel and a clutch.

The basics are the basics are the basics.  The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE.  We ALL should know them.  The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other places.

Once you have the basics down, you are at least SEMI ready to accept info on CC well enough to understand what is being critiqued and how to improve based on the C&C.

How's that?


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> hey, I am one of those "just took my very first DSLR out of the box last week" people. I have not posted up any images yet because I am not looking for anyone to critique my images. I am trying to figure out that portion on my own.
> I am fully aware of how new I am to photography. In fact, I am so new that I fall into the category of the newbie that needs the books. And I've ordered them.
> 
> The first time I ever picked up a DSLR (I had never even touched a SLR, EVER), within 10 minutes, I think I was taking shots that I consider not bad. Sure, I was not used to a viewfinder, so I was chopping things off in my pics, but I KNOW I have an eye for photography. It just isn't as developed as those that have been taking pics for years and years and years. I also know that I know more today, then I yesterday. I DEFINITELY know more than I did last week when I got my very first DSLR. I'm learning more everyday. And the ideas keep growing.
> ...


 
There is just a huge range of people on this forum.  Some that only want to see professional style photos, and some that like to see the beginner photos so that they can help.  I think for some of the advanced photographers (if I'm allowed to call someone a photographer), it is hard for them to distinguish between a person seriously needing help from someone that just doesn't want to give an effort.  I may take a photo and post it, and it may have obvious mistakes, and some may view that as being lazy, when in reality I tried my best with the knowledge I have.

I do think beginners need to try to keep their photos in the beginner section of the forum though.  I have seen some post them in the pro or intermediate sections.

I think if you are trying and are learning, you should be encouraged to post your photos.  I would like to see them, as the comments and critique help me as well.


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## Chewbecca (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I know that I use this analogy a lot, but we all want to be NASCAR drivers, but some of us are having issues knowing the difference between a steering wheel and a clutch.
> 
> The basics are the basics are the basics.  The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE.  We ALL should know them.  The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other places.
> 
> ...




Oh, ok, I think I got it.
So, basically, you're saying like, we should be AT LEAST a "Beginner level II" before posting pics and asking for CC.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> The basics are the basics are the basics. The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE. We ALL should know them. The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other


 
To a certain extent I do agree.  But, the basics are not as easy as just reading a book, or reading a googled article (at least not for me).  I read Understanding Exposure, and the Digital Photography book.  I also have been on this forum for the past two months reading almost everything that has been posted.  Each time when I feel like I am getting the basics down, someone will post something that looks good to me, and then the person doing the critique points out something that is so obvious (now that they have pointed it out), but nothing covered in what I read.  Not everything is going to be covered in reading material, even some basic stuff, and that is what experience is for.  Part of the experience process is posting a photo and having it critiqued.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> Oh, ok, I think I got it.
> So, basically, you're saying like, we should be AT LEAST a "Beginner level II" before posting pics and asking for CC.


 
Yeah, that makes sense.


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## Chewbecca (May 29, 2008)

Now, what if we just want to share images that we think are decent, or you know, images that are perfect to our "untrained" eye?  Or even pics that are just simply endearing to us?

I took a pic the other day of my son running with my dog.  They were playing together.  The image was extremely over-exposed, but it is still an endearing picture to me.  It probably would have been better had I zoomed in a little more, and if I would have had the settings on my camera just right for it.


Is there a separate beginner's picture gallery here (which, wait, I'll probably post this, go check out the rest of the forums and find it on my own), if not, do we just post pictures here?


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> Now, what if we just want to share images that we think are decent, or you know, images that are perfect to our "untrained" eye? Or even pics that are just simply endearing to us?
> 
> I took a pic the other day of my son running with my dog. They were playing together. The image was extremely over-exposed, but it is still an endearing picture to me. It probably would have been better had I zoomed in a little more, and if I would have had the settings on my camera just right for it.
> 
> ...


 
Probably the "Just for Fun" section would be good for that particular one.  There are some people here just as myself who also like to see pictures that are not necessarily for critique but just for sharing as well.  I believe "Just for Fun" is what that is for.


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## tirediron (May 29, 2008)

Jedo_03 said:


> I don't really want to get into specifics: but (Tirediron) you are being too generic here...
> TRUE: forums enable showcasing and C&C - and while your images and many others may be worthy of C&C there are others which, frankly, are just mediocre (at best) and pooss pir (at worst)... Some images I have seen on here are way beyond "brightening", "horizon straightening", "suggestions for a crop" - they are seriously OOF, seriously blown-out, and even the word amateurish would be 'kind'...
> No..! (Tirediron) "they" would seriously not pay money for such images...
> And I will seriously not offer my comment to obvious crap photography that has been posted with "Whadya tink 'o these..?" headlines...
> ...


 
Jedo, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  I grant that some people do over-do it, posting 10, 20 or more pictures and asking for C&C when what they really want is praise for a picture that it may not deserve it.  Well, IMO, the best way to deal with those people is to point out to them that what they're doing is not constructive.  If they're feelings are hurt, oh well.  

Saying that there is no excuse for posting quality images, well, I think you're plain wrong there.  Yes technology has advanced leaps and bounds since I got my first 35mm SLR - an old Miranda, with a couple of 'S' mount lenses, no internal meter, and a top shutter speed of 1/500, but I thought I'd struck gold!  I remember going to my photo teacher (Grade 11 IIRC) and showing him what I thought was a great capture.  He looked at it, and then sat me down and went over the problems; yes the exposure was not bad, but it was a couple of stops over (How many noobies can identify 1/2, 1 or even 2 stops over/under? Sure the camera will meter the scene, but do they know the best points to meter? That's where experience comes in), the horizon  wasn't anywhere near level, and a few other things.  Yep, my bubble burst, but guess what?  I took that, and went off, and the next batch of prints I brought in were better, and so on...  

I don't by any stretch claim to be an expert, but I do know that I got where I am because people who knew a lot more than I did were patient enough to sit down with me time and time again, and say, "No, you need to fix this..." or "A better way to light that would be..."

As I said, because of my very restricted 'net connection for the next five months, I won't be able to look at too many pictures, but I'll do what I can.  If you others don't want to, then don't.  I would like to think that in some small way, I'm paying back those who helped me when I was learning.

Just my $00.02 worth - your opinion may vary.


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## Village Idiot (May 29, 2008)

rub said:


> Ah, interesting where this has gone. I guess my message was lost in translation.
> 
> I really posted this as a little wake up to the noobs, like me. Not as a cry for people to look at and comment on my pictures. That was not my intention at all.
> 
> ...


 
Personally, I'd rather not have a real noob handing out information that they just read about on a forum the other day without knowing if it's true or how it works.


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## tirediron (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Probably the "Just for Fun" section would be good for that particular one. There are some people here just as myself who also like to see pictures that are not necessarily for critique but just for sharing as well. I believe "Just for Fun" is what that is for.


 

Or, post it in the appropriate gallery, but make it clear that you are not asking for C&C.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

tirediron said:


> Or, post it in the appropriate gallery, but make it clear that you are not asking for C&C.


 
Yeah, that would work too I guess.


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## julie32 (May 29, 2008)

This forum states the following: *The Beginners Place: *Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Don&#8217;t be shy! Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here!

So those are the "rules." Therefore,  one does not need to google what A is on the body verses the the A on the lens. They can ask it here, and they do. It's a safe place where people don't have to be shy to raise their hand and ask a question. The more tenure obviously WANT to answer that's why they're on the beginners forum.


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

julie32 said:


> This forum states the following: *The Beginners Place: *Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Dont be shy! Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here!
> 
> So those are the "rules." Therefore,  one does not need to google what A is on the body verses the the A on the lens. They can ask it here, and they do. It's a safe place where people don't have to be shy to raise their hand and ask a question. The more tenure obviously WANT to answer that's why they're on the beginners forum.




:cheer:  

Surely you don't think just because the forum policy states beginners should ask all of their basic photographic questions that they actually should?...


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## rmh159 (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> The basics are the basics are the basics. The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE. We ALL should know them. The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other places.


 
Good point.

I could definitely see where it would get frustrating to be addressing issues that are easily found in someone's camera manual.

If I had to draw a line on this issue it would be that it's good to post pictures to develop your creative eye... bad to post pictures to learn how to use your equipment.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

rmh159 said:


> Good point.
> 
> I could definitely see where it would get frustrating to be addressing issues that are easily found in someone's camera manual.
> 
> If I had to draw a line on this issue it would be that it's good to post pictures to develop your creative eye... bad to post pictures to learn how to use your equipment.


 
Well, not necessarily.  Just because you read the manual doesn't mean that you are going to know how to stop motion in certain light for example.  Maybe I posted a picture of my dog running across the yard on a cloudy day, and the dog is blurry.  I post the picture and say "can anyone help me, here is my scenario, I keep trying to take my dog's picture, but he is always blurry".  Then you may respond something like "up your ISO to maybe 400, set your camera on Tv, set your shutter to at least the same as your focal length..."  or whatever.  You are not going to find that in the manual, and has nothing to do with creativity.


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

rmh159 said:


> Good point.
> 
> I could definitely see where it would get frustrating to be addressing issues that are easily found in someone's camera manual.
> 
> If I had to draw a line on this issue it would be that it's good to post pictures to develop your creative eye... bad to post pictures to learn how to use your equipment.



Who says you have to address these repeated issue's? or anyone for that matter?


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## rmh159 (May 29, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> Who says you have to address these repeated issue's? or anyone for that matter?


 
The person posting the pictures saying "Please C&C my shots.".  

You don't HAVE to do anything but assuming you want to respond to someone's request for a response... blah blah insert my other post.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 29, 2008)

What if I post some pictures, pointing out what I already know is wrong with them, but hoping to get additional feedback?  Yeah, I can tell an underexposed image from an overexposed image, but maybe I don't notice that the photo is oversaturated.  Or maybe I don't realize that the composition sucks.

I don't have a problem with someone saying I should do a search instead of ask a frequently asked question, but I do take issue when people don't think I should post a picture I've taken, looking for a little feedback, just because I haven't been at it for very long.  And to be fair, I try to post only a couple of images at a time, because I don't need to critique every shot I take.

I've read Understanding Exposure, and another book about photography techniques, but until I get some feedback about what I'm doing wrong, I'm just going to keep doing it wrong.  

It's the same reason I took guitar lessons from a professional guitarist instead of just trying to figure it all out myself.  He didn't have a problem telling me to drill alternate picking or chord changes, even if he thought I should know to do it myself.  He just told me to do it.  And what do you know, I'm a better guitar player today than I would be if I hadn't had his input.

But you know what, if you don't want to spend your time looking at my photos, that's fine with me.  I don't need more than a couple of responses to "get it". There are plenty of people here that will offer advice.  And every bit of it is greatly appreciated.  To those of you that are willing to take the time to help out a beginner, you have my gratitude.  To those of you that don't, that's fine too.  But it's not necessary to gripe about the guy who took a few shots and isn't sure what's wrong with them.


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## ~Stella~ (May 30, 2008)

I like the spirit of rub's post and agree with the sentiment.

I'd never try to go into technical things that I don't have a handle on myself but I'm not sure that's all that common anyway.  And photos are more than just the technical aspect - they are art and I do feel qualified to comment on my opinion of the artistic side of the image.  I try to be helpful when I can, regardless of my newbie status, but posts like some of these on this thread could cause beginners to shy away from both commenting and offering their own images for comment, which is unfortunate.

I'd much rather have a dozen beginners tell me they find my photos appealing (or what they would find more appealing) than a bunch of views and no responses.  Even for a pro, I can't fathom that a beginner's post that "I really like the colors in the third one" or something else fairly basic is so terrible to have to put up with.


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## Senor Hound (May 30, 2008)

rub said:


> Today I was quite frusterated that no one else commented on the photos I posted.  And that got me thinking...how many times have I commented on someone elses photos.  Hmmm, about the same numberas people have commented on mine.
> 
> I guess I feel that because I am learning, what I say might not be "correct."  But you know what, if a picture makes me say Oh, I like that! Wow, thats incedible! Oh, geez, that could really use some work on the exposure or composition. Or that subject doesn't appeal to me at all -- I'm gonna say it.
> 
> ...



95% of people out there are inexperienced photographers.  If photographers thought the noob's opinion wasn't important, then they'd be missing out on a lot of people liking their photos (which equals money if they're a professional).

This kind of reminds me of movies.  The ones that go up for Oscars (the most artistic and technically sound photos), are rarely the ones that make the most money (the photos the masses enjoy looking at).  It depends on who you're trying to please and what the purpose of the shot is, but as long as we all keep that idea in mind, then ALL criticism is worth SOMETHING.


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## kami (May 30, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> we were all beginners.. as was i... but i didnt post my flower pics because i saw how many people posted flower pics... i waited until "I" was happy with my pictures, I didn't pull my d40 out of the box, take 5 pictures and then post them... I waitied months, practiced, studied, and learned, THEN when things were looking good to my eye, I went for the opinion of the masses


 
I'm doing the exact same thing!

I've had my D80 for 2 months now and have taken so many pictures. But all of them are nothing new to anyone. 

The only one's who appreciate my pictures are friends and relatives who are mostly point-and-shooters. 

No need for me to ask for critique from you guys until I have to.


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## Senor Hound (May 30, 2008)

kami said:


> I'm doing the exact same thing!
> 
> I've had my D80 for 2 months now and have taken so many pictures. But all of them are nothing new to anyone.
> 
> ...



I don't know about you, but when I first posted stuff on here, I was making obvious mistakes I didn't know about.  The people on here gave me some very general advice, along with some composition links, and I can honestly say that posting from the get go of knowing about this place has helped me mature more quickly.

I'm not saying you should post, but there's no reason to feel like you're not good enough to do so yet.  Just remember that.  And if you have a photo that just doesn't seem to jive for you, you should definitely post it on here without thinking twice about it.  Where else could you get so many opinions for free?  Plus, you recognize certain names after a while, and you learn to trust them.  There are a few people who I will take the advice of no matter what, cause I've seen their work and would love to be half the photographer they are.  I'll admit that sometimes I question the validity of certain critics (especially the arrogant and overly straight forward ones), but for the most part its all great advice.  The only bad advice I got was when someone told me I'd be better off junking my photos, but as I said before, that was a very rare occurrence.

Once again, do what you want, but it hurts me to think you don't feel worthy enough to post yet.  If that is indeed the case, please stop being so hard on yourself.


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## rubbertree (May 30, 2008)

I've seen so many posts like the one started here recently.
Getting upset and directly asking people like this to C&C is not going to make it happen. Like mentioned, there have been numerous posts lately about why people don't.


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## ~Stella~ (May 30, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> I've seen so many posts like the one started here recently.
> Getting upset and directly asking people like this to C&C is not going to make it happen. Like mentioned, there have been numerous posts lately about why people don't.


 
I didn't see this as getting upset and whining about not getting replies so much as encouraging newbies to get involved and put in as much as they get out of the forum, which I took as a much more positive, cheerleading, sort of post.


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (May 30, 2008)

You know this fable about an old man, a boy and a donkey on the road?

First The boy is riding the donkey and the old man is walking. Someone looks at them and says "that boy! All comfy travelling on the donkey while the old man has to walk"
So they switch places and the old man rides the donky. Someone else now comments "That man is mean, making the boy walk while he rides on the donkey!"
Now both get on the donkey for a while and a PETA guy looks at them and says "that's cruel on the donkey... too much weight!"
Tired of peoples comments, both get off the donkey and walk. Some teen sees them and says "dude u r stoopids, u have a donkey and don't ride it!!!11!1 lol"

It seems to me we are running in the same direction... and we are currently not riding the donkey.

Some say they are tired of answering the same questions and giving very basic advice to beginers.
Some say beginers should not be givingadvice because they are not qualified.
Some complain about "great pic" posts
Some complain because no one is helping.

I say STFU.
If a beginner wants to post his first pictures, so what? If the avatars of photohood are too high to give him some pointers, maybe the ones in the middle or other beginners can work together wiht him
If someone says "nice pic" or "this suckz" well, there you go, now you now someones opinion on it. Doesn't help you improve? Sure does, at least you know which images are generally liked or disliked. Isn't that an essential part of art? How the receiver percives the piece? And not just "experts" art is for everyone, IMO.
If someone takes time to tell you how (ITO) the image can be improved, well, that is the greatest.


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (May 30, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I know that I use this analogy a lot, but we all want to be NASCAR drivers, but some of us are having issues knowing the difference between a steering wheel and a clutch.
> 
> The basics are the basics are the basics. The basics do not cahnge for ANYONE. We ALL should know them. The info on where we can learn about the basics are placed in people's sigs, stickies, FAQs, the search button, google, youtube, books and a million other places.
> 
> ...


 
Well, my dad didn't just hand me the keys to his car and the user's manual and let me go downtown by miself to learn the basics 
A lot of stuff (even basic) cannot be learned from manuals.


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## JerryPH (May 30, 2008)

(Ghastly) Krueger said:


> Well, my dad didn't just hand me the keys to his car and the user's manual and let me go downtown by miself to learn the basics
> A lot of stuff (even basic) cannot be learned from manuals.


 
No difference here either.  I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.


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## ~Stella~ (May 30, 2008)

(Ghastly) Krueger said:


> You know this fable about an old man, a boy and a donkey on the road?
> 
> First The boy is riding the donkey and the old man is walking. Someone looks at them and says "that boy! All comfy travelling on the donkey while the old man has to walk"
> So they switch places and the old man rides the donky. Someone else now comments "That man is mean, making the boy walk while he rides on the donkey!"
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (May 30, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> No difference here either. I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.


 
My point was... the initial practice wasn't done by myself, and the theory from the handbook was not enough.

For example, I used to make the stupid mistake of engaging the starter with the engine already running. I knew I shouldn't do it and every time I did it I cringed at the noise the engine made... but I just kept doing it. My dad said: "don't you hear the engine running?" (there was no tachometer in that car)... and I honestly didn't. So he said: "you are holding the steering wheel all the time... can you feel the engine running through it?" That broke my routine and forced me to stop and feel before starting the engine. All the way to the basic... but found in no manual, I needed someone's input to make the correction.


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## kami (May 30, 2008)

Senor Hound said:


> I don't know about you, but when I first posted stuff on here, I was making obvious mistakes I didn't know about. The people on here gave me some very general advice, along with some composition links, and I can honestly say that posting from the get go of knowing about this place has helped me mature more quickly.
> 
> Once again, do what you want, but it hurts me to think you don't feel worthy enough to post yet. If that is indeed the case, please stop being so hard on yourself.


 
I think the original intent of this thread has been twisted a little. 

I don't feel the need to post pictures for C&C since I do a lot of research on my own and read the C&C of other members regarding other people's work. I look at others work and read how they acheived it. By doing my own research I learn and experiment. 

IMHO, I really feel that people should at least do their homework first before asking for C&C. Learn the basics...aperture, shutter speed, ISO, lighting, DOF, bokeh, vignetting, read the camera's manual, familiarize yourself with your equipment, etc... 

I feel it's pointless to explain to someone to adjust the ISO a little when he/she has no idea what you're talking about. 

If I do feel the need to post a pic for C&C, I sure will. I have nothing against people taking their first shots after buying a SLR camera and asking for C&C. I'm a beginner and I actually read a lot of other's C&C on 2 other photography forums as well as this one. 

But when people complain and gripe about others not giving them any attention, that's another story.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 30, 2008)

kami said:


> I think the original content of this thread has been twisted a little.
> 
> I don't feel the need to post pictures for C&C since I do a lot of research on my own and read the C&C of other members regarding other people's work. I look at others work and read how they acheived it. By doing my own research I learn and experiment.
> 
> ...



Generally, I'm happy with any advice I get.  But, then, I've actually done a little homework, read my camera's manual etc.  I may not have ALL of the basics mastered, but I have a pretty good understanding of how alot of it works.  Like I said before, if I take a photo of something that I'm especially happy with, I'll post it so I can get an unbiased opinion of the shot and find out what I'm still not doing right.

That said, griping in general annoys me.  It ain't hurting me if someone doesn't comment on my picture.  And it ain't hurting me if someone posts their first five pictures out of their camera, regardless of how much "homework" they've done.


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## JerryPH (May 30, 2008)

(Ghastly) Krueger said:


> All the way to the basic... but found in no manual, I needed someone's input to make the correction.


 
Well, then some poeple are just made to drive automatics, I suppose, but you cannot blame your inattention to inability... its not the same.

If you cannot see the forest becuase of the trees... once you hit your nose a few times running around, the average person will learn to slow down and walk in such a manner that they will not bump their noses, or if they do, they've learned to walk slower so they don't beak it. 

You are telling me that you are not like this and have no ability to process the obvious and will keep repeating obvious errors over without change until someone holds your hand and guides you to another process.

I would not call this action normal. If you are telling me that you cannot learn from your own mistakes... you will ALWAYS need someone to hold your hand... forever. You will NEVER be able to grow on your own beyond what someone places square into your hand.

Is this what you are telling me? If not... then all you have said goes against what you say and supports my convictions. If you tell me that this is so, then, I will say that 99% of the people are not like this, and still would be correct where it concerns the majority of people.

Most people have the skill to learn from their mistakes. I am an IT trainer, this is what I do to put bread on my table and see this EVERYDAY that I work. Whether they choose to do so, or look for the easy way out... well thats another subject.

For me, in everything that I do, I rarely do perfect the first time... and mistakes are the greatest teachers possible and help me to attain my goals or get as close to them as is possible under the circumstances.  Actually... I believe that everyone has this same skill.  It is just a matter of one simple choice to use it... or not.


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## Overread (May 30, 2008)

Thing is Jerry - sometimes people don't know that they are bumping their noses against a tree to know to stop (here the analagy breaks).
My point is that sometimes you just don't know (especially at the start) things - like a newborn baby - you have to learn by both trial and error and by people showing you the way. There is no weakness in admitting that you need to be shown.
Further some can be shown by a book - some by trial and error and others need that communication (be it from words of mouth or words on a screen) to make the connections.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 30, 2008)

Perhaps the best argument I can give for someone to ask for critique of their work is, in some cases, it's the only way they're going to get an honest opinion about the photos they took.  I can take an underexposed picture I took that I think looks great, show it to my wife and she'll think it's great.  

As a novice, it can be difficult to take a step back from your work and view it with a critical eye.  Having your work critiqued by someone who knows a little more about the art than you do can make that chore a little easier.  At some point you can hit a wall and not realize that the pictures you're taking aren't composed well.

I wouldn't call that hand-holding.  I call it having an open mind and being willing to listen to an unbiased opinion.

That said, it's still incumbent upon each of us to take control of our own destiny and actually learn something.  If someone's continually asking for input and they're getting the same advice, then, yes, they are asking to have their hand held.  Because they obviously haven't applied any of the lessons they've learned from previous entries.  I've learned a bit about my own photography just by reading the critiques of other peoples' work.


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## AndrewG (May 30, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> No difference here either. I can get the theory from a book, and practice it in real life on the camera, but without the theory, you're am driving blind.


 
I learned to ride a horse from a book; when I eventually got on a horse I had to learn all over again.
A manual can teach the mechanics; the art is within you.


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## rubbertree (May 30, 2008)

Exactly. There is technical and then there is the artistic side. Nobody can teach you to be artistic, you either are, or you aren't. It's a characteristic one possesses, you cannot be "shown" by someone else how to be artistic.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 30, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> Exactly. There is technical and then there is the artistic side. Nobody can teach you to be artistic, you either are, or you aren't. It's a characteristic one possesses, you cannot be "shown" by someone else how to be artistic.




This is true.  However you have to learn the basics of _any _art form before you can realize your natural creativity.  I sucked at playing guitar until I sucked it up and took some lessons.  Even today, after playing for 13 years, it's still useful to have someone else listen to the music I write and give me their objective opinion.


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## Neen (May 31, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> we were all beginners.. as was i... but i didnt post my flower pics because i saw how many people posted flower pics... i waited until "I" was happy with my pictures, I didn't pull my d40 out of the box, take 5 pictures and then post them... I waitied months, practiced, studied, and learned, THEN when things were looking good to my eye, I went for the opinion of the masses


I guess I know what section of the forum to avoid, then...since I could care less about the opinion of the masses.


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## bblaine (May 31, 2008)

I just want to ask, those of you that are at your wits end, did one of these newbies attack you and demand C&C?  ...because I would just not pay attention to it if it bothered me that much...


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (Jun 2, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Well, then some poeple are just made to drive automatics, I suppose, but you cannot blame your inattention to inability... its not the same.


 
Seems like you blew this way out of proportion.



> If you cannot see the forest becuase of the trees... once you hit your nose a few times running around, the average person will learn to slow down and walk in such a manner that they will not bump their noses, or if they do, they've learned to walk slower so they don't beak it.


 
I'm quite sure I'd have been able to figure it out on my own, my dad just gave me a pointer. Is that too bad?



> You are telling me that you are not like this and have no ability to process the obvious and will keep repeating obvious errors over without change until someone holds your hand and guides you to another process.


 
No. I just stated an example where the advice from someone with more experience helped me... with the BASICS. Maybe I was too exited about drinving the car that I forgot to check for the engine, maybe it was too much information in the moment.



> Most people have the skill to learn from their mistakes. I am an IT trainer, this is what I do to put bread on my table and see this EVERYDAY that I work.


 
So if someone makes a basic mistake, you just let them repeat it again and again?


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (Jun 2, 2008)

Overread said:


> Thing is Jerry - sometimes people don't know that they are bumping their noses against a tree to know to stop (here the analagy breaks).
> My point is that sometimes you just don't know (especially at the start) things - like a newborn baby - you have to learn by both trial and error and by people showing you the way. There is no weakness in admitting that you need to be shown.
> Further some can be shown by a book - some by trial and error and others need that communication (be it from words of mouth or words on a screen) to make the connections.


 
:mrgreen: Thanks!That was pretty much my message, but you used better (more clear) wording.


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## iflynething (Aug 28, 2008)

Ya'll are all funny

~Michael~


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## quieststorm (Aug 28, 2008)

In my opinion thats the purpose of the beginner forum. some people can read the books and it just comes to them others need feedback to get better. If everyone could learn from books why do we have schools and why does anyone bother going? Thats why in preschool you learn your ABC's and your numbers and they build on from there. If the C&C posts bother you look in the professionals forum. 

The dictionary definition of beginner is: a novice, someone who is new to a field or activity.


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## LynziMarie (Aug 29, 2008)

haha these threads get so intense!! 
I love it!

I consider myself a noob and I often look through threads that ask for C&C... if I really like it, I say so, if I know what can be done (and it hasn't already been said)  then I'll say so.

I have learned quite a bit from posting my shots and hearing what people have to say (tirediron being one of the most helpful btw)  In the beginning, you can't separate yourself from your work and look at it objectively being able to say what you see wrong, because you have no idea what you're looking for!  As time goes on, and people have been honest and helpful, you will be able to see exactly what is wrong... I think that is the point you stop being considered a noob.  Having said all that, I don't think it's necessary to have hundreds of similar comments and advice on one or two photographs, one helpful person will do...  and if all you're looking for is compliments and an ego boost, show your mom.


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## Resin42 (Aug 29, 2008)

I just spent the last twenty minutes reading this thread before realizing it was three months old!

Damn you Michael! Daamn yooouuu!!!


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## BlueEyes01 (Aug 29, 2008)

LOL on the 3 months old, seems kind of pointless now what I wanted to say but:

As an extreme noobie (to this site) I have just a simple response to this discussion:

No good student should rely soley on advice from others without personal study.

No respected teacher has just given someone a book and said "Figure it out" without some help along the way.


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## nyamy (Aug 29, 2008)

I'll just say I'm a real newbie, the kind ya'll hate. I bought my dslr without knowing what aperature was, thinking I'd get great shots by pressing a button.
I now know how ignorant I am, so I've been reading non stop since I bought the camera, and practicing too. not as much as I'd like (or need to) but some. 
and FINALLY I felt like I was getting decently exposed shots but I'm so green I didn't trust my self. 
so I posted two photos and asked for specific input regarding the exposure. and thank you tirediron, for responding to that post, because I was ready to give up, but reading that someone with experience thought it was well exposed was very encouraging.

so no, I'm no pro, and will likely never be. but I'm learning and enjoying the process. I hope there will always be a couple of people here who don't mind putting up with me


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## Weaving Wax (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm a noob too and I find that a lot of the stuff written here is a bit arrogant. Sure, we can all read books, but to be quite frank....sometimes books don't make sense to me and I want people to help me figure it out. If people think I'm too "noob" to be asking for CC, then avoid posting, but judging from some of the responses, I don't think I'd want CC if it's a big deal because I don't know the difference between the A on my lens and on the camera. Forget that.


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## shed301 (Aug 29, 2008)

After lurking around here for the last couple years or so as a guest, Finally taken the plunge and registered a nick

I to have noticed some of the comments on here for eg:

*#1 Doesn't really do much for me*

What sort of dumb answer is that????

for a new photographer to receive a answer like that is complete worthless in helping where they have gone wrong. If your going to answer like that then don't answer it at all. That tells the photographer absolutely nothing to help get experience ( after all we were all newbs once )

On the opposite end of the spectrum we have this answer ( both answers were for different photos BTW)

*The sky is rather bland; the use of a graduated neutral-density filter would have really perked it up. As well, the colours overall are slightly desaturated. The use of a circular polarizer would have given you a little more pop there as well.

*This answer is spot on. it gives the photographer good advice to capture a better picture than his/her original, Also to spend that little bit extra on his equipment

My advice for newbie photographers to avoid such harsh C & C well here would be a really good start 

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123160

Also Join a camera club.. there is nothing better than hands on experience  (person to person )to show you on your own camera where you went wrong in taking pictures


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## reg (Aug 29, 2008)

shed301 said:


> I to have noticed some of the comments on here for eg:
> 
> *#1 Doesn't really do much for me*
> 
> ...



well you're perky....

*Doesn't really do much for me *means just that. It doesn't invoke some sort of emotional or psychological response. 
Bland.
Boring. 
Possibly trite.


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## Brutus (Aug 29, 2008)

Hm, well, it seems that around here, even if you get just a few responses, they are GENERALLY pretty good at telling you some minor things to change, at least on certain photos. And if someone says a photo "doesn't do anything for them," that CAN give you some good advice. If it doesn't do anything for them, that means it's sort of boring, which usually implies you needing to recompose the shot, lighting, etc. or to find something else that's a bit more interesting.


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## manaheim (Aug 29, 2008)

Sometimes "Doesn't really do much for me" is someone's nice way of saying ... um ... something far less nice. 

There certainly is some arrogance on here from folks, but most of the time the critque is genuine and constructive... and even the best people on this forum have an occasional bad moment or bad day.  Everyone's human.  

_Sometimes_ you will get an "RTFM" from folks, and usually when I see it I'm not too surprised.  Some of the folks on this board (me included) kind of expect people will take some of their own time to at least try to read up on the basics, and _then_ post a question if you need clarification. (which I would assume most people would... the stuff is really confusing... "You mean the smaller number is the BIGGER hole and that means LESS in focus?  _Are you people on CRACK?!"_) 

A lot of us spend a lot of time on here answering pretty basic questions and are _very_ happy to do it, but sometimes it's just too much to try to spoon-feed the very most basic information to someone who hasn't even tried to get a handle on the basics first.


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## anubis404 (Aug 29, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> "don't let the bastards grind you down" is what google told me... guess it was coined in WW2
> 
> *Illegitimi non carborundum* is a mock-Latin aphorism jokingly taken to mean "don't let the bastards grind you down"



Yea, read that one in a book. The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, I believe? I think it was:

*nolite te bastardes carborundum*


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## Joves (Aug 29, 2008)

I come in this section and skim really quick. Im one of the jerks but, I do post on equipment questions that I can answer. There are so many CC questions that my whole night would be consumed by them. Also I dont click links to look at pics either. To any noobs who dont know to post a picture in the forum it is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 this will put it in the forum. Or use the insert image box above the posting dialog box.


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## terror.hawk (Aug 29, 2008)

quieststorm said:


> If the C&C posts bother you look in the professionals forum.



:thumbup:


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## NateWagner (Aug 29, 2008)

I haven't really been here long, but I have been trying to comment on threads relatively frequently (particularly people type threads) and I will say that although I want to help the others here in any way I can, the shots are so out of focus, so blurry, so poorly composed that I skip by the shots often and just don't bother to give critique. 

As was said earlier, people can usually tell if their photos are blurry and underexposed, they may know they have blown highlights, that the shadows are distracting etc. Thus, as I was reading through this thread I kept thinking how much I liked the response given in one of the linked threads where the person critiquing merely said "do you like these photos?"

The response was basically, no, it's too dark, etc. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that maybe how we are offering this C&C is an enabling behavior in which we are letting newer people take take and not necessarily learn, whereas if we were to take a more Socratic method we could encourage the new photographer to learn through critically looking at their own pictures. This is after all the frustrating part, critiquing photos that the person taking them should be able to clearly tell are poor.


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## danjchau (Aug 29, 2008)

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## tirediron (Aug 30, 2008)

shed301 said:


> After lurking around here for the last couple years or so as a guest, Finally taken the plunge and registered a nick
> 
> I to have noticed some of the comments on here for eg:
> 
> ...


 
Hmmm... could this be me we're talking about?   When I post a phrase like this, take it literally.  It means:  The picture doesn't excite or interest me, I can't find a subject, and/or there's nothing to comment on (Essentially exactly what Reg said a few posts back - Arrghh.... I agreed with Reg; is the earth going to stop rotating?  ). I could type all of that each time I see an image that 'doesn't do it for me' or I could simply post nothing, however I choose to post something fairly simple and direct to indicate to the poster that I have looked at the image.

If this was comment I posted on one of your images and you didn't understand it, or didn't like it, why not PM me and ask?  I'm on the board on a fairly regular basis... I'll get back to you.


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## KD5NRH (Aug 30, 2008)

reg said:


> *Doesn't really do much for me *means just that. It doesn't invoke some sort of emotional or psychological response.
> Bland.
> Boring.
> Possibly trite.



That's why I consider it as valid a comment as any other; maybe you can't put your finger on why, but the shot just doesn't work for you.  It's how I feel about Adams' Half-Dome; I can't tell you what's so different about Half-Dome and El Capitan that makes one just look like something from a textbook while the other really draws me in, but that's just how I see it.

I don't care whether a person giving a comment has a lot of experience or not; someone looking to buy a photo isn't likely to have a heck of a lot of experience either.  Claiming that one needs some special skills to critique photos is like saying that only professional food tasters are qualified to judge restaurants; unless the target market is comprised only of professional tasters, the opinion of an average potential customer is at least equally valuable.

Addendum: Nothing really important; I just felt that this post should contain at least one sentence without a semicolon.  Unfortunately, it took me two sentences to do that.


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## shed301 (Aug 30, 2008)

wow stirred up a hornets nest with that one little line havn't i?. . the point i was trying to make was.... the newbie comes into the forum ok.. doesn't understand the workings on the forum ok?. thinks his/her pic is pretty darn cool.. post's it up and thinks he/she will get top marks.... gets * *Doesn't do* *anything for me**... gosh disheartened. thats the point i was trying to make. i can understand your guys point clearly.... but we got to remember these guys are newbs and probably new to  forums

Tirediron..... nope that wasn't aimed at you... but to be honest i did steal the second answer from one of your reply's ( the use of a nd filter or polarising filter to make pics pop etc)

I had this happen to me on a forum a few years back and for that reason i don't post much up on forums anymore as i take my pictures to a craft market on saturdays and let the public decide if it's a good pic or not. if the public don't like it then you can pretty much tell yourself it sucks


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## reg (Aug 30, 2008)

shed301 said:


> wow stirred up a hornets nest with that one little line havn't i?. . the point i was trying to make was.... the newbie comes into the forum ok.. doesn't understand the workings on the forum ok?. thinks his/her pic is pretty darn cool.. post's it up and thinks he/she will get top marks.... gets * *Doesn't do* *anything for me**... gosh disheartened. thats the point i was trying to make. i can understand your guys point clearly.... but we got to remember these guys are newbs and probably new to  forums



"Stirred up a hornet's nest"? I'm sorry, I thought this was an open forum. I felt I answered the question quite well since you called "nothing for me" such a crap answer.

If a simple critique disheartens someone, they shouldn't post their photos on the internet. It's not like "Doesn't do anything for me" is the same as "Your photos suck, learn what a freakin' horizontal horizon is you dumb***".

They're new, so don't they deserve HONESTY anyway? They're the ones that need it most. And I've been on forums for years before this one, so I don't know where the "new to forums" comment comes from.


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## Raze (Sep 3, 2008)

LynziMarie said:


> haha these threads get so intense!!  I love it!
> 
> I consider myself a noob and I often look through threads that ask for C&C... if I really like it, I say so, if I know what can be done (and it hasn't already been said)  then I'll say so.
> 
> I have learned quite a bit from posting my shots and hearing what people have to say (tirediron being one of the most helpful btw)  *In the beginning, you can't separate yourself from your work and look at it objectively being able to say what you see wrong, because you have no idea what you're looking for!*  As time goes on, and people have been honest and helpful, you will be able to see exactly what is wrong... I think that is the point you stop being considered a noob.  Having said all that, _I don't think it's necessary to have hundreds of similar comments and advice on one or two photographs, one helpful person will do...  and if all you're looking for is compliments and an ego boost, show your mom._


Here Here!

I'm new to photography (have no idea on most of the terms etc), but I love art. I know what I like, I just don't know WHY I like it (sometimes). I think thats where C&C comes in, eg: an ordinary photo with great colour; the colour is really apealling and could mean you just need to work on the composition a bit, maybe its just the ROT's a bit off and just needs cropping to become something exceptional. 
This is something a newbie like me wouldn't be able to see without someone pointing it out and really doesn't have anything to do with the technical side that you'd find in a manual.
If you don't know what your doing wrong, how can you improve?

If you don't want to C&C then don't, but I thank the generous people who take the time to do so.:hail:


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## juane414 (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm new here and have only posted a few groups of pictures but so far I've noticed that most comments have seemed pretty negative.  I've gotten comments similar to "why even post that?" or "there's nothing special about that".  Now, that's all fine and dandy considering I've only had my camera for a week and I'm a noob.  However, I wish that I would have received some more suggestions about possible techniques to try or settings to use.  I really only saw one comment that was positive and encouraging.  I'm fairly confident in my technical abilities and I'm very persistent so I'm not bothered, but someone who doesn't have great self-esteem could be very hurt by harsh critique.  I wish this community was a little more supportive I guess, but I'm brand new hear so maybe I just haven't seen the positive sides yet.  Thats my two cents.


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## crashcart (Sep 3, 2008)

I appreciate all of the people (esp. tirediron) who have taken time to C&C photos that I post. I am genuinely looking for honest opinions so I can get better at what I do. When I was in college, I gave music lessons on the bass, guitar and piano. When my students had questions and asked opinions of the songs they wrote, I would listen and give them an honest critique. 

If they genuinely wanted help, I would give it to them and not make them feel that they shouldn't "waste my time" when they should realize that one should probably use the Locrian Mode over that A7b5 chord. And if you didn't know that...you should have read your theory books! Plebian!

I don't come here looking to have smoke blown up my arse. I'm trying to get better and I'm asking for help. Not all of us are born experts, and although it may come very naturally to some, some of us have to work and be taught to be better.

Not every self-taught guitarist can be Jimi Hendrix. Most just end up playing three-chord crap in dump coffee houses. That's why I taught music - so maybe I could help someone get higher than they could have on their own.

My $.02, do what you will with it.


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## invisible (Sep 4, 2008)

Wow, what a thread!

Something that I learned by personal experience when I was a kid is that you could achieve excellent spelling, grammar and syntax by just reading well-written books. The more you read, the better you get, no matter how much you hate language classes at school. My first language is Spanish, so when I decided that I wanted to learn English I basically applied the same formula: read, read, read. By reading, you're exposed to a language in its purest form. Learning a language (your own or otherwise) using a text book is much more boring anyway.

My approach to photography has been the same, at least so far. Even after receiving some formal (basic) training, the best way for me to learn has been by just looking at photos, and more photos every day. The first thing you learn this way is composition (what works, what doesn't, some conventional rules, etc.); then aperture and shutter speed, proper exposure, and so on. *This is, in my opinion, the strength of forums like TPF, and not necessarily the feedback that your images may or may not receive when you post them. *

So my humble recommendation (especially to the very beginners) is: don't expect the knowledge to be given to you &#8211;keep in mind that the person critiquing our photos might be even more clueless than we are. Instead, go for it! "Absorb" as many photos as you can, and of course shoot a lot. In a matter of just a few weeks you'll notice that your eye is able to distinguish between good and bad images, an acquired "gift" that you'll find yourself applying to your own work in no time. Doing research or reading a text book or two won't hurt either. The rest will come.

That being said (rant alert!), I think there are quite a few arrogant jerks on this forum (just like everywhere else) who feel that they put themselves in a higher place when they dismantle other people's photos. As noted, a blunt _"that doesn't do anything for me"_ or _"it's an OK photo but I've seen it many times"_ can be very disheartening, no matter your level of knowledge. The truth is, those arrogant comments say more about the "expert" than about the photos. (The most striking thing about these jerks is that they rarely post any images themselves.)

Sorry for the long post. I got carried away and I'm not even sure if I said anything of substance.


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## tirediron (Sep 4, 2008)

invisible said:


> That being said (rant alert!), I think there are quite a few arrogant jerks on this forum (just like everywhere else) who feel that they put themselves in a higher place when they dismantle other people's photos. As noted, a blunt _"that doesn't do anything for me"_ or _"it's an OK photo but I've seen it many times"_ can be very disheartening, no matter your level of knowledge. The truth is, those arrogant comments say more about the "expert" than about the photos. (The most striking thing about these jerks is that they rarely post any images themselves.)
> 
> Sorry for the long post. I got carried away and I'm not even sure if I said anything of substance.


 
While I think that you make some excellent points in your post, I don't entirely agree with this portion.  For instance, asks for comments and critique (and note that they are two separate things), on an image which is technically adequate but lacks anything to grab the the respondant's attention, what should he or she say?  I think as mentioned earlier in the thread that both of these are valid points.  "It doesn't do anything for me" means just that; not that it's a bad photo, but that there's nothing in it that the person responding can find of interest.  That should tell the photographer something.  Likewise "It's been done before" or "Cliche" means that the person has chosen a subject which has been done many, many time (sunsets come to mind).

It's important to remember that when asking for comment/critique on an image, it's not all going to be sugar and roses.  The simple fact is, that if someone posts an image asking for C&C of an image which has technical flaws and lacks (IMO) artistic merit, I'm going to tell him/her that.  I generally try and put it politely, but I'm not going to say I like if I don't.


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## manaheim (Sep 4, 2008)

The reference to language is an interesting one when you consider the "It doesn't do anything for me" approach. I have a ton of experience in writing and editing, and I can often tell people "Hey, this doesn't exactly work the way you have it..." but I cannot necessarily tell them the rules of why it didn't work, and oftentimes I cannot even say exactly how I would word it differently- only that it doesn't work.

It would seem to me to be not all that different from our photography scenario. Sometimes the picture just doesn't work to our relatively trained eye, but we lack... something... training... formal experience... just more experience... enough to articulate it to someone else.

This is actually a lot of why I'm on here all the time. My philosophy has always been that if I can do something well, I'm relatively successful, but if I can _teach_ someone _else_ how to do that same something, then I have mastered it. My goal here is always to achieve enough knowledge to learn how to teach someone else... if my answer is "It didn't work but I don't know why", then I consider that a personal failure.

Sorry for the semi-stream of consciousness. This is the first time I have ever articulated this before.


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## Weaving Wax (Sep 4, 2008)

crashcart said:


> I appreciate all of the people (esp. tirediron) who have taken time to C&C photos that I post. I am genuinely looking for honest opinions so I can get better at what I do. When I was in college, I gave music lessons on the bass, guitar and piano. When my students had questions and asked opinions of the songs they wrote, I would listen and give them an honest critique.
> 
> If they genuinely wanted help, I would give it to them and not make them feel that they shouldn't "waste my time" when they should realize that one should probably use the Locrian Mode over that A7b5 chord. And if you didn't know that...you should have read your theory books! Plebian!
> 
> ...



+1.

I think it's kinda selfish and arrogant to not help people because they're "too new". Granted, you cannot read every C&C thread made, but to completely avoid them because someone is too new is stupid.


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## invisible (Sep 5, 2008)

tirediron said:


> While I think that you make some excellent points in your post, I don't entirely agree with this portion.  For instance, asks for comments and critique (and note that they are two separate things), on an image which is technically adequate but lacks anything to grab the the respondant's attention, what should he or she say?  I think as mentioned earlier in the thread that both of these are valid points.  "It doesn't do anything for me" means just that; not that it's a bad photo, but that there's nothing in it that the person responding can find of interest.  That should tell the photographer something.  Likewise "It's been done before" or "Cliche" means that the person has chosen a subject which has been done many, many time (sunsets come to mind).


I didn't express myself correctly, my bad. I was actually referring to those people who ONLY post lines like the above, and are NEVER able to salute a good photo. Nothing is good enough for them because, you know, they are better than the rest of us. You get the feeling that they do it only to stir up the pot. 



tirediron said:


> It's important to remember that when asking for comment/critique on an image, it's not all going to be sugar and roses.  The simple fact is, that if someone posts an image asking for C&C of an image which has technical flaws and lacks (IMO) artistic merit, I'm going to tell him/her that.  I generally try and put it politely, but I'm not going to say I like if I don't.


Absolutely agreed, this is the healthy way to go. Trying to be polite by telling the poster of a bad photo that the photo is good is... well... impolite.


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## AussieDee (Sep 6, 2008)

Oi!

I didn't wanna post but I couldn't help seeing "Doesn't do much for me" part.

I don't like cars... they are boring so I would find it difficult to critique it and just wouldn't bother posting at all. 

but I can see how that statement can have two different meanings. I guess it's all in how the OP see's that statement. 

I like fence shots. Black and white fences, old ones.  It may not do $h!t for someone else's liking and I would prefer not to have someone critique it if they don't care for those shots.


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## tirediron (Sep 6, 2008)

AussieDee said:


> I don't like cars... they are boring so I would find it difficult to critique it and just wouldn't bother posting at all.


 
That's an interesting point and one with which I disagree.  I in fact learn more from critiquing pictures whose subject matter didn't interest me all that much.  Why?  Because it meant that I had to work harder to understand what made a good or not good picture.  I think part of being a photographer is being able to look at images objectively.  You'll often see me post something like, "Not to my taste but well done"  meaning, "I wouldn't have shot this, and I wouldn't hang it on my wall, but it is a good picture".  




AussieDee said:


> I like fence shots. Black and white fences, old ones. It may not do $h!t for someone else's liking and I would prefer not to have someone critique it if they don't care for those shots.


 Another Phenceophile!  Yayyy!!!


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## AussieDee (Sep 6, 2008)

> Another Phenceophile! Yayyy!!!



Do I sense a bit of sarcasm in that?  ROFL!!!


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## tirediron (Sep 6, 2008)

AussieDee said:


> Do I sense a bit of sarcasm in that? ROFL!!!


 
Not at all! I'm a huge Phenceophile! See: http://www.johnsphotography.ca/Fences_screensaver.html

I hope to have a new and improved 'Fences' gallery up in early in the new year (my current one is the victim of interupted website maintenance)


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## AussieDee (Sep 6, 2008)

tirediron said:


> Not at all! I'm a huge Phenceophile! See: http://www.johnsphotography.ca/Fences_screensaver.html
> 
> I hope to have a new and improved 'Fences' gallery up in early in the new year (my current one is the victim of interupted website maintenance)



Ohhh YAY!!   :thumbup:

Here's part of my collection (all Arizona) http://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiedee/sets/72157606553100487/
I haven't cleaned up any from Australia yet


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## BlueEyes01 (Sep 6, 2008)

I personally appreciate honest critique. Thats how I learn and sometimes I still dont agree with something someone commented but if more than one person comments on the same thing, I make myself take a closer look.

I just wish everyone would quit getting so de"Fence"ive

Baa-dum-bump!
Sorry, couldnt help my self


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## AussieDee (Sep 6, 2008)

> I just wish everyone would quit getting so de"Fence"ive



ROFLMAO!!


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## manaheim (Sep 6, 2008)

DIE THREAD, DIE!


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## chizuck (Sep 6, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> me too... there are SOOO many new "first shot CC" threads on here each day, if i viewed them all I would be sitting here forever... I have found too that since dslr's are becoming cheaper, more and more people are buying them, and you get a lot of the same shots... I've found MOST (not all) of the first shot cc threads are all of the same things... flowers, pets, babies, sunsets, then it is inevitable that someone will also post a picture of a waterfall and say "how do I make mine look like this" and they post a picture of a waterfall with a long shutter.... .... and they all tend to just blend together after a while, so i've just stopped posting on them, unless they really wow me for "first shots"




But if people oh here that actually know what there doing don't take some time to help newbies then they never learn a thing. I am not saying anyone should answer everything they read on here by no means. Sites like this are a big help to figure out what your doing and were to get more info. Just my 2cents.


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## srt86hil (Sep 7, 2008)

chizuck said:


> Just my 2cents.


There's must be about 10 bucks in this thread now


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## chizuck (Sep 7, 2008)

srt86hil said:


> There's must be about 10 bucks in this thread now




LOLZ man vary funny.

chuck


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