# Model Shoot - Heidi



## Katz (Jul 11, 2008)

This was my first model shoot - What do you think? She is very happy with it.


----------



## craig (Jul 11, 2008)

Why did you decide to include all of that "skin noise".

Love & Bass


----------



## poppy67 (Jul 11, 2008)

Nice pose and model but the noise is not working for me..sorry!


----------



## tirediron (Jul 11, 2008)

Agree with poppy; the model is attractive, and the pose is good, but that's all. The noise is excessive and the high contrast do not, IMHO, make for a flattering portrait. There's no detail at all in her shirt, or most of her hair, and well as deep shadow around her buttocks. It looks to me like this image died in post. Definitely needs greater use of diffuse fill light and reflectors to even out the extreme dynamic range in this image.


----------



## sunshinedaydream (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know man, but besides what the others said, the composition is a little boring (no offense).


----------



## RowmyF (Jul 11, 2008)

I agree with the crowd...The noise does NOT work here.

The pose & model are nice...I'm not so ito the white background but guess it could work if the subject took notice.


----------



## Katz (Jul 11, 2008)

Funny how different people see different things. The model, myself and another group of photographers loved this shot just like this. 

I find that keeping things "normal" tends to be more boring. The high contrast was preffered because without it, it seemed monotonous.  

Thanks for the comments. I guess what matters is that the model loves it.


----------



## O'Rork (Jul 11, 2008)

I like it. It's artsy.


----------



## kundalini (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not a fan of the work on the skin.  The dark tones on her left side (particularly left arm....looks like a mans hairy arm) just seem dirty, for lack of a better description.  Her left hand looks as if she's wearing a fingerless black glove and seems out-of-place.  Speaking of out-of-place, her right hand totally breaks up the lines on her right side (and looks huge for some reason).  There is too much tone difference between her appendages and her face / chest.

She is a very pretty model and I am glad for you that she likes it.  I have absolutely no problem for images that do not conform to "normal", but still, a balance of tones should be held.


----------



## Icon72 (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know why the model would want to look like she's covered in liver spots at such a young age but, to each their own I guess.


----------



## Katz (Jul 11, 2008)

wow - harsh critics here, and some slightly rude. 

It is all in everyones perception of what is artistic. I personally like the look and so does she. As far as balance of tones, nothing I can do about where she tans. Her arms were naturally dark, her chest not so much. I guess I will tell her that before I post another shot of her on this site, she needs to be more evenly tanned. 

Like I said, it is individual perception but the model will enjoy hearing how you think she looks like she has liver spots and hairy man arms :lmao: Good thing she has a sense of humor and apparently a better eye. I will go with what my client wanted. She was right here with me during the entire post processing, this is what she wanted it to look like.


----------



## kellylindseyphotography (Jul 11, 2008)

you might find this thread interesting.

My personal opinion that it is TOO much on her arm, but not the rest of her body.  It is where your eye goes first, and that shouldn't be the case. 

Also,  I think if your going to add noise, you shouldn't just put it on her, but the whole picture, including hte white because it appears off balance.


----------



## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 11, 2008)

Thing is, you asked "what do you think?"  If you didn't want to know, you shouldn't have asked....


----------



## kundalini (Jul 11, 2008)

Katz said:


> Like I said, it is individual perception but the model will enjoy hearing how you think she looks like she has liver spots and hairy man arms :lmao: Good thing she has a sense of humor and apparently a better eye. I will go with what my client wanted. She was right here with me during the entire post processing, this is what she wanted it to look like.


 I never thought she had liver spots or hairy man arms.  I don't think it's the model at all.  In fact, IMO the problems that I see with this image are down to you and your processing techniques.  Yes, it is different and outside of the norm, but that doesn't make it a pleasing image.  I am glad she has a sense of humor and still glad for you that she liked the final product.  However, that does not necessarily constitue that she has a better eye.  Is she a photographer in addition to being the client?  There is a recent thread out there asking that very question.  Is it good as long as the client likes it.  From what I see and what I've read prior to my contribution, no one questions that your model is attractive.  I don't find any of the comments to be harsh or rude.  Honest seems to fit the bill.  You did ask.


----------



## PhilGarber (Jul 11, 2008)

I luv' it!:thumbup:  The contrast for me is really nice-the noise just adds to nit!


----------



## John_Olexa (Jul 11, 2008)

PhilGarber said:


> I luv' it!:thumbup: The contrast for me is really nice-the noise just adds to nit!


 

I agree! I love this shot! :thumbup:   Dare to be Different !!


----------



## Katz (Jul 11, 2008)

kundalini said:


> I never thought she had liver spots or hairy man arms.  I don't think it's the model at all.  In fact, IMO the problems that I see with this image are down to you and your processing techniques.  Yes, it is different and outside of the norm, but that doesn't make it a pleasing image.  I am glad she has a sense of humor and still glad for you that she liked the final product.  However, that does not necessarily constitue that she has a better eye.  Is she a photographer in addition to being the client?  There is a recent thread out there asking that very question.  Is it good as long as the client likes it.  From what I see and what I've read prior to my contribution, no one questions that your model is attractive.  I don't find any of the comments to be harsh or rude.  Honest seems to fit the bill.  You did ask.



What a pleasing image is is all individual. To her, and me, and quite a few other photographers, it is pleasing. It may not be what YOU like, but that does not make it a bad picture, nor does it make my post processing bad or wrong... just different from what you would have done. 
    In my opinion, yes it is good as long as it is WHAT THE CLIENT WANTED. This is exactly what she wanted. So, since I gave my client exactly what she asked for, how could it not be good? Had I given her something else that was more esthetically pleasing to you, to her, I would probably have a name around town about taking good pics but not giving my clients what they ask for. I would rather ask them what THEY want, since it is THEIR picture, and do my best to give them what THEY WANT. 
    You seriousely don't see any of the comments as rude? Wow. Maybe I live in a place where critiquing someones work meant giving them helpful suggestions on what they would personally like to see with the image, not saying things like the model looks like she has liver spots or hairy man arms. Those comments honestly gave me NO help as to what they would prefer to see in the image, they were just rude. Some of the comments were nice and helpful and gave me ideas for future shots. 
    I  did not post this picture to please anyone here, just to see what others might have done different, or if there was a way to keep this same look and make it better. I won't and can't change the look of this picture because it IS what the model wanted, part of my job is to give my clients what THEY want and do the best job I can do while doing that. My clients are happy and I am reccomended alot so I must be doing something right.


----------



## Senor Hound (Jul 12, 2008)

Katz said:


> What a pleasing image is is all individual. To her, and me, and quite a few other photographers, it is pleasing. It may not be what YOU like, but that does not make it a bad picture, nor does it make my post processing bad or wrong... just different from what you would have done.
> In my opinion, yes it is good as long as it is WHAT THE CLIENT WANTED. This is exactly what she wanted. So, since I gave my client exactly what she asked for, how could it not be good? Had I given her something else that was more esthetically pleasing to you, to her, I would probably have a name around town about taking good pics but not giving my clients what they ask for. I would rather ask them what THEY want, since it is THEIR picture, and do my best to give them what THEY WANT.
> You seriousely don't see any of the comments as rude? Wow. Maybe I live in a place where critiquing someones work meant giving them helpful suggestions on what they would personally like to see with the image, not saying things like the model looks like she has liver spots or hairy man arms. Those comments honestly gave me NO help as to what they would prefer to see in the image, they were just rude. Some of the comments were nice and helpful and gave me ideas for future shots.
> I  did not post this picture to please anyone here, just to see what others might have done different, or if there was a way to keep this same look and make it better. I won't and can't change the look of this picture because it IS what the model wanted, part of my job is to give my clients what THEY want and do the best job I can do while doing that. My clients are happy and I am reccomended alot so I must be doing something right.



I usually don't post in here because nothing about my work or critique is professional , but I want to tell you that many people on here are harsh.  And with the professional forum, the criticism is very, "in your face," and if someone has an issue with something and its posted here, you'll be notified in a way which almost resembles flaming (especially to someone like me with thin skin).  Posting in the People Photography forum may not get as good of criticism, but your responses will be a bit warmer.

And a poster on here (the wonderful and intelligent Abraxas) told me one of the steps in taking a photograph is to identify your target audience beforehand.  Since this was for you and her, your photo has TOTALLY met its purpose.  If others don't like it, then it doesn't really matter!  And from my beginner standpoint, I think its cool, and your model is very beautiful (like she doesn't already know that, lol).

As far as criticism, I definitely have no place to say anything in here, but I will say that maybe a different reaction would occur if this photo was put into perspective, where other, cleaner, photos were with it.  Sometimes people dislike noise because they can't distinguish certain features.  But its been my experience that people fill in the indistinguishable parts of a photograph with prior information when available.  Whenever I see a bunch of low-key shots in a row, I get frustrated when I don't see at least one that shows the whole model's face.  I feel like I need that info to enjoy the others (the mystery annoys me).

Sorry to make my post so long.  I hope I didn't overstep my bounds, and if I did, I apologize.  I just really enjoy your photo, and don't want you to get a bad taste in your mouth because of the way certain people talk on here.  You're much too good of a photographer to leave, as many of us can help you, and many of us can learn from you!

If you made it this far, thanks.


----------



## Katz (Jul 12, 2008)

Thanks. I think I will go read in that area. I appreciate your comments and actually think you have probably kept me on this site. I can say that I will not be posting another picture in this area, not due to people not liking this particular picture, just the immaturity of the way the responses are written. (not by all, but by some) 

Thanks to all for posting.


----------



## tirediron (Jul 12, 2008)

Katz said:
			
		

> <snipped>
> 
> just the immaturity of the way the responses are written. (not by all, but by some)
> 
> Thanks to all for posting.


 
Katz, I think you may be a little out of line here; you got a mix of positive and negative reviews for your work, but I don't believe any of them were rude or immature.  Harsh?  Yes.  Direct?  Yes.  Why...

One of the things that you have to remember when you're posting a picture for review, especially, as Senor Hound noted, in the Professional Forum, is that it's going to be judged based on the generally accepted standards for an image of similar type.  I think you have to agree that the image you have posted has areas where it differs from the norm.   Therefore, if there are reasons, that you've done certain things, you need to explain those in order to get the most effective critique.   If your initial post had said something like, "This image was processed in this way because...."  then it would have been judged in an entirely different way.  



			
				Katz said:
			
		

> _In my opinion, yes it is good as long as it is WHAT THE CLIENT WANTED. This is exactly what she wanted. So, since I gave my client exactly what she asked for, how could it not be good? Had I given her something else that was more esthetically pleasing to you, to her, I would probably have a name around town about taking good pics but not giving my clients what they ask for. I would rather ask them what THEY want, since it is THEIR picture, and do my best to give them what THEY WANT_.


 
I understand you said that the model liked it, but that IMHO, does not necessarily mean that it is a good image.  If the model doesn't know a great deal about photography, or isn't experienced, then he or she may be happy with a substandard product (NOTE:  I am not saying yours image is sub-standard, just making a point) because that's all they know.  This is analogous to someone who doesn't know anything about construction saying that they like a particular house, even though it has no interior walls; if you don't know what something is supposed to be like, you're not ideally qualified to judge it.


----------



## Katz (Jul 12, 2008)

A pictures "perfection" is based on what someone thinks about it. Therefore, if my client likes her picture alot, then it is perfect. Because someone on here may take more pictures or know more about HOW to take a picture does not make them any more qualified of a judge of how an image looks. It just means that they know more about how to run a camera. Some people will like my pics, others won't. So be it. But for people to be basically rude about them and insult the pic that I took WAS immature coming from what is supposed to be professionals. 
     I have no problem with constructive criticism and helpful critique, but rudeness and insults are just immature.


----------



## bigalbest (Jul 12, 2008)

The hardest praise you can get is from your peers. These people know what looks good and what looks a little beginner (no matter what your client thinks). Sometimes criticism feels a little personal but don't take it that way, at least you talked a pretty girl into posing for you, that's a start. And your adjustments to this photo are typical of beginning photographers (no offense, I've made the same adjustments in the past). Just keep trying to get better and be open to some other points of view. Hang in there, I'm sure we'll see some better stuff from you in the future.


----------



## Arch (Jul 12, 2008)

tirediron said:


> I understand you said that the model liked it, but that IMHO, does not necessarily mean that it is a good image.  If the model doesn't know a great deal about photography, or isn't experienced, then he or she may be happy with a substandard product (NOTE:  I am not saying yours image is sub-standard, just making a point) because that's all they know.  This is analogous to someone who doesn't know anything about construction saying that they like a particular house, even though it has no interior walls; if you don't know what something is supposed to be like, you're not ideally qualified to judge it.



Perfectly stated. :thumbup:



Katz i really don't think anyone was trying to be rude to you. But on a forum such as this you will get people who will say exactly what they think without suger coating it... the key is to try and not take offense.
What comes out of it, is to then have a perspective of your own work which you may not have had before you posted it. This is hard to take, but actually makes you a better photographer for it.... the more opinions you have, the more consideration you give you own work, that can never be a negative thing.

For me personally, the image doesn't work as i see two styles of work being forced into one image. i.e. the more arty added noise look together with a clean studio type portrait, these two styles jar for me.
I do however like her pose alot.


----------



## Local_Skater (Jul 12, 2008)

I think the main problem here is that Katz posted this expecting everyone to love it and when just the opposite happened, he/she decided to take the defensive route. If you post on here, expect way worse than what people have been saying. I havn't seen anything that I'd called rude. Rude would just be saying "this sucks" and move on. Everyone has brought up a good point. 

This picture reminds me of the 1000's of kids on myspace who make photography pages, just have endless point and shoot pictures with insane filters added, and call it photography. Granted, your client likes it, but I can guarantee any modeling agency is going to look at this shot, wonder what you were trying to cover up with all that grain, and toss it aside. If you want to make a photo more interesting it should be done when you're actually taking the picture. Composition and lighting can't be fixed post prod.

You also need to do something major to your website, b/c it doesn't look professional and the styling is way too old fashion and bland. I'll be honest, if I saw that as a potential customer, I would think you and your graphic designer had no idea what was going on and look elsewhere.


----------



## kellylindseyphotography (Jul 12, 2008)

Local_Skater said:


> You also need to do something major to your website, b/c it doesn't look professional and the styling is way too old fashion and bland. I'll be honest, if I saw that as a potential customer, I would think you and your graphic designer had no idea what was going on and look elsewhere.



I have to agree and I hope that you take it all as *contructive* critisism and not destructive.  It is to try to help you to be better and produce professional quality pictures.  Those that are on your website I would not think "professional" at all.  I am TRULY not saying this to be hurtful but to open your eyes a bit.  Post here for CC and you can learn a LOT.  Sometimes it hurts, though.


----------



## Katz (Jul 12, 2008)

okay - for s&g's - what would make my site better? (I am already in the process of changing the video into more of a gallery with thumbnails)


----------



## kellylindseyphotography (Jul 12, 2008)

My advice to you would be to join a forum such as www.ilovephotography.com where there are many pro's there who would give you exceptional CC.

If you want to get true feedback here at TPF, post individual pictures one by one and we can help you point out what issues there are, etc. Good luck


----------



## Katz (Jul 12, 2008)

I have no problem with critique, it is the rudeness(or honesty as you call it), there was just no need for it. If you don't like the pic, then fine. Leave it at that. Different tastes.


----------



## reg (Jul 13, 2008)

For OP to ask what "we think" then to get mad about it is absurd.


----------



## poppy67 (Jul 13, 2008)

I think if you are going to put an image up asking for critique you need to get a little tougher...I have learnt tons from harsh critique but at the same time I take what I want from it and the ones I don't agree with I let go over my head..If you want to improve I would say do not take things as personally everyone has a different opinion and they are all entitled to them!


----------



## Local_Skater (Jul 14, 2008)

For advice on what to do to your site, check out other photographers pages. Most use flash to make transitions appealing to the eye and interesting. Heres a few:

http://www.joshcaple.com/

http://www.danopendygrasse.com/

The best of the three IMO:
http://www.alijabos.com/


----------



## Senor Hound (Jul 14, 2008)

I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again...  You can be kind and be critical at the same time.  People who are critiquing:  You don't have to sound short and harsh to get people to listen to you.  If anything, your non-positive tone deters people from taking your advice.  In other words, you lure more flies with honey than vodka.

And as far as saying, "I shouldn't HAVE to sugar-coat!"  This is a cop-out.  There's a difference between positive, constructive criticism and attaboys.  Further more, there's a lot of things in life I feel I shouldn't HAVE to do, but I still do them anyway.  Its called being an adult.  This matter-of-fact attitude is IMO just another way of being rude, and is very counter-produtive to the critiquing process (after all, you want him to get better or you wouldn't have posted in the first place).  If you wouldn't talk to your best friend thatway, you shouldn't talk to anyone else that way, either.  Its called social skills.


----------



## Local_Skater (Jul 14, 2008)

Did you seriously just follow me into a completely different thread? where I took the time not only to make a helpful critique, but provided three examples of what I would do to improve business?


----------



## Senor Hound (Jul 14, 2008)

Local_Skater said:


> Did you seriously just follow me into a completely different thread? where I took the time not only to make a helpful critique, but provided three examples of what I would do to improve business?



If you're talking to me, I never mentioned you once, and I don't know what you're talking about.  Guilty conscience?


----------



## John_Olexa (Jul 14, 2008)

Thats the one problem with critiques. Unless it's an obvious technical issue or flat mistake, it's really nothing more then an opinion.

There is nothing... "wrong"... with this image. It may not be right for Seventeen magazine, but could be prefect for some other magazine or book.

I guarantee theres images in mags, books ect ect that would have been ripped to shreds in here. Anybody still got the '06 Photographers Market book? Theres an image in there that made the cover of a book. The image itself is a shot of a woman, from just above the knees to around the belly,thats all. She's wearing a miniskirt thats all you can really tell because from below the knee and above the midsection it's all dark shadows. The shot is not even sharp! But it does have the same grain (noise) this image has! 

Guess thats one nice thing about photography today. You can take one image and give it 5 or 6 diffrent looks.


----------



## Deadeye008 (Jul 15, 2008)

For me, the picture looks really soft and overly PP'd. Just my opinion though. As someone stated above, comments and critique are mostly ones opinion. It's just something that you get used to when you ask peoples opinions. Doesn't mean that you should change your picture or heed what they say. It's just what they think.


----------



## zandman (Jul 15, 2008)

i like the contrast but hate the iso/asa..


----------



## Local_Skater (Jul 15, 2008)

Senor Hound said:


> If you're talking to me, I never mentioned you once, and I don't know what you're talking about.  Guilty conscience?



No, but that was very reminiscent of that faces thread, where I said something about sugar coating. I didn't see where arch said that in this thread.


----------



## dylj (Jul 15, 2008)

Katz said:


> okay - for s&g's - what would make my site better? (I am already in the process of changing the video into more of a gallery with thumbnails)



For one, try changing the title of your website to something other than "index".


----------



## Katz (Jul 15, 2008)

LocalSkater, Thanks for the links. 
I am not a computer website designer or anything, and I made this myself in a short period of time, so I am always looking for ways to make my site look better.

dylj, To be 100% honest, I never noticed that. I never notice that on anyones site. I am usually just looking at the pages, not how they are saved. But thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## J7CK (Jul 15, 2008)

@katz - you did alright, your first shoot? - it's good.
maybe try some daylight pics also. 
try some variation with angle-of-shot and closer-in.


----------



## Katz (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks, I am hoping to have her back in again next week for another shoot. Will try some new things..... maybe I can even get some of you to like what I do?? hehe


----------



## slapshot (Jul 20, 2008)

Katz said:


> This was my first model shoot - What do you think? She is very happy with it.


 
You captured the "S-curve" of the model very well.


----------



## KrisHunt (Aug 5, 2008)

The only immaturity I see here is someone's inability to accept constructive criticism.


----------

