# Beginners help on wedding/portrait pics



## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

Afternoon/Morning all.

I have just been on hols with my Nikkon D40X and tried some macro pics and some landscape pics. I'll put some up when I get the time.

Anyway, I am going to a wedding in June and not had much practice with portrait/wedding photos. Is there anyone that can give me some advice on how to get the best pictures at this wedding and portrait pics etc. I have a 18-55mm and a 55-200mm lens and the tripod. Will I need any extra gear for good pics? If so, could you suggest some bareing in mind, not got the most amounts of money to spend on it 

Thanks in advance!

Craig


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## asfixiate (May 27, 2008)

A decent flash will  help.


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

asfixiate said:


> A decent flash will help.


 
Any links? recommendations? etc?


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## Big Mike (May 27, 2008)

I'd recommend a nice 'fast' lens.  The 50mm F1.8 is pretty affordable.

A lens with a large maximum aperture (low F number) will allow you to use a faster shutter speed, which can help to ensure sharp shots.  Also, a large aperture will give you a shallow DOF, which can blur out the background of a portrait.


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## asfixiate (May 27, 2008)

the 50mm is always great to have.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&ci=0&sb=bs%2Cupper%28ds%29&sq=asc&ac=&bsi=&bhs=t&ci=647&shs=&at=Brand_Nikon&basicSubmit=Submit+Query


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

asfixiate said:


> the 50mm is always great to have.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...&shs=&at=Brand_Nikon&basicSubmit=Submit+Query


 

I could only see 35mm here?


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## asfixiate (May 27, 2008)

What does I could only see 35mm here mean?


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

asfixiate said:


> What does I could only see 35mm here mean?


 
Sorry, you said the 50mm flash would be good to have, I looked at your link you put and they all say 35mm next to them?  sorry if I'm being stupid


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

50mm lens and a flash are two different items.....


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

julie32 said:


> 50mm lens and a flash are two different items.....


 
I have the 18-55mm lens and 55-200mm so I'm guessing the 18-55mm will do?  

Anyone recommend a good cheap flash for these photos?


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

i believe that asfixiate was saying a 50mm lens is great to have, but in addition you should get an external flash and he gave you the links for some good flashes at B&H.


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

I'll take a look at the flashes now and reviews   Will my 18-55mm lens be ok to use?


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

Are you shooting these "professionally" or as a friend of the couple?


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## Alfred D. (May 27, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> Anyway, I am going to a wedding in June and not had much practice with portrait/wedding photos. Is there anyone that can give me some advice on how to get the best pictures at this wedding and portrait pics etc.



Hi Eddie,

why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?
If so, I'm guessing the B&G and the official tog won't be too happy! Maybe you better don your tux and leave the rest of your gear at home, on _that_ occassion.

Have fun!


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## asfixiate (May 27, 2008)

I was agreeing with mike and than gave you the link you asked about.  sorry for confusion.


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## ovjamaica (May 27, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> Hi Eddie,
> 
> why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?
> If so, I'm guessing the B&G and the official tog won't be too happy! Maybe you better don your tux and leave the rest of your gear at home, on _that_ occassion.



Not a very kind assumption. Why don't we wait until he answers julie32's question before offering such brash advice. 

Eddie, in terms of your 18-55mm lens you should be ok. If it's the kit lens you might want to look into renting a better lens. There's nothing really wrong with a kit lens, but you'll get sharper images out of better glass. Look around at photo supply stores and see if they rent lenses. Also, just to clarify, you'll want to use more than just the 18-55mm lens most likely. If its a traditional wedding you'll need your longer zoom to get closer shots during the ceremony. In conjunction, that sort of range between the two lenses (18-200mm) should suit you well.


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## jols (May 27, 2008)

the lens mentioed is the 

nikon 50mm f1.8

nice sharp lens ranging from 80 to 100 pounds


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## Alfred D. (May 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Alfred D.*
> Hi Eddie,
> 
> why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?
> If so, I'm guessing the B&G and the official tog won't be too happy! Maybe you better don your tux and leave the rest of your gear at home, on that occassion.





ovjamaica said:


> Not a very kind assumption. Why don't we wait until he answers julie32's question before offering such brash advice.



"Not very kind" is a subjective value judgement, ov. And wrong too. My question isn't "kind" or "unkind". It is matter of fact.

And FYI: Julie32's question was posted as I was typing mine, so I didn't see hers until I had already posted mine.
Her post _does_, however, prove I'm not the only one with that impression!


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## Eddie666 (May 27, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> Hi Eddie,
> 
> why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?
> If so, I'm guessing the B&G and the official tog won't be too happy! Maybe you better don your tux and leave the rest of your gear at home, on _that_ occassion.
> ...


 

Correct, I was only going to take the cam I got as a gesture to take some nice pics after and I know I don't have much of a clue about it, hence why I am asking for advice in the BEGINNERS section 

I do know the B&G and it was only to take some nice shots for them... No intentions of charging or anything, just a bit of fun but to learn as well.  Guess this is the response you give to most beginners.  How welcoming of you 

Thanks everyone else for the advice, I know it must be frustrating to people who don't have much of a clue (beginners)


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

Lots of people bring cameras to wedding receptions.  I don't see why it would be a problem.  If the hired photographer has a problem with him shooting some pictures, he isn't very professional.  He ought to be confident enough in his work not to be threatened by someone else with an SLR, as long as they're not screwing up his shots.


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## Dao (May 27, 2008)

I think if the B&G know you are going to take some pictures for them, it will be fun (as long as you like it).   

As for the flash, I would prefer the one that allow you to bounce off the ceiling or walls.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Don't be afraid to do a search.  This topic comes along prety regularly.


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

Eddie,
For what you're looking to do..looks like you're all set with your D40 and your two lenses...don't worry about getting anything else for this. I'm sure you'll do just fine. Have fun.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> Thanks everyone else for the advice, I know it must be frustrating to people who don't have much of a clue (beginners)


 
If you do a search, you will find that this is a very touchy subject for many here.   Way more regularly than most like, we see "newbies" or "beginners" say they are about to be primary or main shooters for weddings.  This is akin to asking someone who never before sat in a car in their life, to go not only drive, but win a NASCAR race... the results are going to be disasterous at best.

One of the MOST challenging environments that a professional can place themselves in is a wedding scenario, now imagine how much luck a person who cannot even understand the basics would have?

This leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many photographers who really go out of their way to perfect their craft.  Imagine yourself spending years developing your skills and then be compared to someone who bought their first dSR a couple weeks before the event for the sole reason of being the family photographer, whilst the paid professional gets ousted because he charges money for his services.  It would get stale in your mouth fast as well.

Now, this may or may not be the case, but no matter, if you do a search, you will find a few answers to your questions.  As I said... this kind of situation happens quite often, so instead of reading some bad posts in your thread, do a search, and sift out the good from the bad there, and get your answers without needing to wait for the "good" answers to be posted yet again for the 20th time.

Me personally, I am a strong advocate for people KNOWING what they do before they do weddings... you see, if you just happen to be the main photographer, and your experience and knowledge is limited, its just not fair for the B&G.  This is one of the most important days of their lives, and they deserve to have it preserved and captured properly.  To me, at least, that demands at least one experienced professional in this event, an event that will never be repeated ever again and where there are no second chances.

I hope you now understand why some people feel the need to expel a little negativity under these circumstances.

Good luck with your search.


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

Jerry,
*Very* nicely said. 
But wouldn't you agree that most B&G's wouldn't "hire" someone who has no experience and is just a beginner? I think they'd want to see that person's previous work and or references before asking them to document a very special day in their lives. I can't imagine anyone would say "yes" to be a main photog at a wedding with no previous experience. This isn't exactly the business of "we need to start somewhere, so let's start with a wedding." Agreed?


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## Alfred D. (May 27, 2008)

Thanks, Jerry.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

julie32 said:


> But wouldn't you agree that most B&G's wouldn't "hire" someone who has no experience and is just a beginner? I think they'd want to see that person's previous work and or references before asking them to document a very special day in their lives. I can't imagine anyone would say "yes" to be a main photog at a wedding with no previous experience. This isn't exactly the business of "we need to start somewhere, so let's start with a wedding." Agreed?


 
Kinda-sorta, Julie... lol

Some B&Gs are obviously doing this else we would not see so many beginner enthusiasts asking for help in just such situations. 

Now, I think that often this happens becuase the family either is looking for ways to save some money or cut expenses or care less about the pics and more for the cake, location or whatever. I blame that on a lack of understanding on what it takes to shoot a well handled wedding day. Many people do not understand what kind of higher end equipment is truly needed along with the knowledge and experience required to exploit this equipment to their best advantage.

I feel so bad for the B&G because this is a moment in time forever gone, and nothing you can do will ever bring it back or preserve it with the dignity and skill it deserves.


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

I hear you Jerry.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> Thanks, Jerry.


 
I did the very same thing myself last year.  I thought... how insulting, why would someone want to do a SENIOR shoot?? Why not call it adult or mature or grandparent, or something a little more dignified, not old folks. I was corrected a little more forcefully by the young lady who was the subject of the shoot... lol.


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## Bluesman (May 27, 2008)

F*ck taking pictures at weddings. You gotta get drunk for free and score some highly emotional women.


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## wallyir (May 27, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> If you do a search, you will find that this is a very touchy subject for many here. Way more regularly than most like, we see "newbies" or "beginners" say they are about to be primary or main shooters for weddings. This is akin to asking someone who never before sat in a car in their life, to go not only drive, but win a NASCAR race... the results are going to be disasterous at best.
> 
> One of the MOST challenging environments that a professional can place themselves in is a wedding scenario, now imagine how much luck a person who cannot even understand the basics would have?
> 
> ...


Gee, jerryPH aren`t being just a little hard? Remember we are beginners,We`ve found a great site with like minded people,one where others try to help,so we`re bound to get a little hyper.why not answer the original question with a reminder that Weddings are so important that it`s best left to a pro? you sort of did that with a diatribe thrown in,it wasn`t called for.Looks like I made an enemy before I could make a friend.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Nope, not at all... in this case, I think we need to stop thinking of our egos and think of the people that are important, the B&G.

I've seen the results once, for my second wedding... I'd not wish that on my enemy. 

Leave the weddings for the pros. How's that?


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I did the very same thing myself last year.  I thought... how insulting, why would someone want to do a SENIOR shoot?? Why not call it adult or mature or grandparent, or something a little the young lady who was the subject of the shoot... lol.



Honestly Jerry

Why do you even bother with the Beginner forum? You mostly only tell people about how annoyed you are because this came up last week and direct them to search.  Aside from new lens/camera release everything beginner has already been discussed so whats the point of even continuing the forum based on your methods?.  It is well understood that most or all information can be found by a simple google search, but people like the social aspect of this forum.  If you don't have anything to offer the OP besides do a search than save yourself the time and skip to the next thread that interests you.  

The OP doesn't deserve to be belittled like this, he is simply asking how to take pictures at a wedding.  Lots of people bring their camera to a wedding.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Honestly? If I did not feel that strongly about it, I would not post, thats why. 

As for searches... hey, it is a GOOD thing. Why wait for the answer to your question, when there are 20 answers already here all ready for you seconds away??


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> Hi Eddie,
> 
> why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?
> If so, I'm guessing the B&G and the official tog won't be too happy! Maybe you better don your tux and leave the rest of your gear at home, on _that_ occassion.
> ...



Something in your Corn flakes today man? Cuz it seems your into shredding Noob's today.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> Honestly Jerry
> 
> Why do you even bother with the Beginner forum? You mostly only tell people about how annoyed you are because this came up last week and direct them to search.  Aside from new lens/camera release everything beginner has already been discussed so whats the point of even continuing the forum based on your methods?.  It is well understood that most or all information can be found by a simple google search, but people like the social aspect of this forum.  If you don't have anything to offer the OP besides do a search than save yourself the time and skip to the next thread that interests you.
> 
> The OP doesn't deserve to be belittled like this, he is simply asking how to take pictures at a wedding.  Lots of people bring their camera to a wedding.



I wouldn't be too hard on Jerry.  I've fallen into the trap of just posting a question without giving any thought to doing a search first.  Thanks to guys like Jerry politely reminding us to search, I've spent less time waiting for responses and found what I was looking for.


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Honestly? If I did not feel that strongly about it, I would not post, thats why.
> 
> As for searches... hey, it is a GOOD thing. Why wait for the answer to your question, when there are 20 answers already here all ready for you seconds away??



Then why bother with this forum?  I agree searches are good thing.  I don't search this forum, but google search information I need.  This is an informative social forum about photography.  It can be argued that anything related to beginners photography can be found using google.  So why should this forum continue? Because Noob's are excited about their new hobby and want to interact socially.


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> I wouldn't be too hard on Jerry.  I've fallen into the trap of just posting a question without giving any thought to doing a search first.  Thanks to guys like Jerry politely reminding us to search, I've spent less time waiting for responses and found what I was looking for.



You shouldn't need a guy like Jerry to remind you that search engines exist.

Don't worry about me being hard on him.... he can take it...

I value Jerry's opinion when he posts informative responses.  Jerry posted a great link the other day for noobs about aperture adjustments.  Lately he has been cranky.. and so I'm telling him....


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

Well, by the same logic, why have a search feature if no-one is going to use it?


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> Well, by the same logic, why have a search feature if no-one is going to use it?



For people who want quick answers without social interaction...


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

This forum has such a VAST reservoire of knowledge that if you look at any of my near 2000 posts, you may find *maybe* 2 questions out of the whole group, and add ONLY 1 request for a sincere critique (which was VERY helpful, BTW). 

The reason for that is becuase I am able to find almost all the answers right here without needing to post the question again.

I firmly believe that photography has been around so long that I would have to have a bloody epiphany to ask a question not already answered here... lol.

Also, when I explain something, I hate one aspect. I never, ever say... don't do it, just "because"... I explain why I think a certain way. That way, people don't think my opinion comes from arrogance, but either experience or knowledge. It also offers the people more experienced than I to correct me, if needed (which I enjoy when it comes). 

I am a big boy and not everything that I do requires someone to hold my hand through something. I think that if more people had that attitude, the levels of many threads would rise dramatically... and that includes people that want to shoot weddings (yes, just like me, becuase I am working bloody hard to earn that right one day).

Sometimes, we all need a reminder to stop looking for the easy fix... becuase the easier fix is right here ready for you, a click on the search button away and I've had no issues being socially interactive... indeed my social intercourse skills have been often lauded, with many acclaims of me sometimes attaining the status of a cunning linguist. 

Add this to the list of "Jerry potifications and diatribes", if you will. :lmao:


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> This forum has such a VAST reservoire of knowledge that if you look at any of my near 2000 posts, you may find *maybe* 2 questions out of the whole group, and add ONLY 1 request for a sincere critique (which was VERY helpful, BTW).



How many of those posts are reminding people to search?

Just kidding!


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## wallyir (May 27, 2008)

How`s that? dismissive.The point I tried to make is that beginners are beginners,that because we can sometimes take reasonable images,some may think that Weddings are easy to do. We BOTH know they are not,at my level I wouldn`t do anything other carry the gear, keep my mouth shut and learn.You are right about the Bribe and Gloom(pinched that line from the Rugrats cartoon show)and yes egos should be set aside,but to discourage someone outright is not the best way to guide, If you have a wedding photos horror story to tell,why not tell it?again we are beginners,we could benefit from your experiences.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

I have not shared my own in detail, because it really is a bit of a sore spot with me... however, what is the difference between me sharing a horror story, and doing a search for many other similar posts that would be more constructive?

Even better... why not google wedding photography? On top of the info here, there is a plethora of info available all nice and ready and layed out for us newbies.

Ever do a search on youtube? hundreds of vids there too! Like everything else, some is crap, some is really good. It is up to each user to sift through the chaff to get to the wheat.

My point is... it is better to actively do the searching, rather than post on a forum about a very often discussed and disected topic, no?


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## wallyir (May 27, 2008)

I see the point you are making...for that matter why be a part of The Photo Forum?You are, I am,why bother?Because I/We learn so much more from interaction with those who have gone before us.I can get nuts and bolts info by a search any time,but the human touch is priceless.Here is what I have learned from our discussion...1.Wedding Photograghy is not for the faint hearted...2. be better than good. 3..If you mess it up it won`t be forgotten.4.and more.....so why not just Google?


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Becuase there is more than one topic (wedding photography), to discuss?

But the better question you should be asking is... why limit yourself to just one place for information?  And why ask it in but one post and wait for someone to answer?


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Becuase there is more than one topic (wedding photography), to discuss?
> 
> But the better question you should be asking is... why limit yourself to just one place for information?  And why ask it in but one post and wait for someone to answer?



Huh?... Jerry please answer....

Should the beginner forum continue to exist other than being an archive?  If yes... why?


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

It should continue.  I've done searches that haven't produced any results, and I've only been here a few days. 

But go to any photography forum and search for "Depth of field", "Aperture" or even "Wedding Photography" and you're bound to find lots of results.

A very good reason to search instead of start a new thread:

Take a look at the filters and RAW vs. JPEG discussions and you'll see how heated some of the discussions get.  Why dredge that back up when a simple search will reveal that there are opposing schools of thought on those questions?

Look, I don't personally care if someone wants to start a new thread instead of doing a search, but people who've been here a long time probably roll their eyes when they see a re-post of a discussion that's been discussed to the point of beating a dead horse in the past.  Especially if it's "digital vs. film", "filters for protection" or "RAW vs JPEG".


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## wallyir (May 27, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> It should continue. I've done searches that haven't produced any results, and I've only been here a few days.
> 
> But go to any photography forum and search for "Depth of field", "Aperture" or even "Wedding Photography" and you're bound to find lots of results.
> 
> ...


Hello? isn`t this a BEGINNERS forum?


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> Look, I don't personally care if someone wants to start a new thread instead of doing a search, but people who've been here a long time probably roll their eyes when they see a re-post of a discussion that's been discussed to the point of beating a dead horse in the past.  Especially if it's "digital vs. film", "filters for protection" or "RAW vs JPEG".



I understand your point... but there is no obligation by any senior member to contribute to a thread that has already been discussed.  Often I see posts like you mention and provide an answer, if I don't feel like contributing that day I simply don't respond.  It's no big deal.  There are senior people here like Big Mike or Mav who take the time answer these often repeated questions.  If you have nothing technical to contribute besides "google it", and you are annoyed by the subject it is not very helpful to the OP. 

Nobody is obligated to answer.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> I understand your point... but there is no obligation by any senior member to contribute to a thread that has already been discussed.



Maybe not, but there does seem to be a standing consensus in the majority of the discussion forums I've been to over the years that if there's a search function, it should be used in lieu of starting a new thread.  It's not just here, it's the majority of discussion forums on the web... at least the ones I've frequented.


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## dEARlEADER (May 27, 2008)

PhotoDonkey said:


> Maybe not, but there does seem to be a standing consensus in the majority of the discussion forums I've been to over the years that if there's a search function, it should be used in lieu of starting a new thread.  It's not just here, it's the majority of discussion forums on the web... at least the ones I've frequented.



This observation is generally true..... except in this "the beginners" forum.   As I've already mentioned, ANYTHING beginner related can be found by way of google search.  If all beginners used search there would be no reason for the beginners forum to exist.  We could simply have a large FAQ like most other forums. This is the spot to keep beginners from annoying seniors  by posting silly questions in the "beyond the basics" forum.  It generally works very well.

It only doesn't work well when seniors are bored with the "beyond the basics" forum and come over here to shred noobs for asking beginner questions.

I certainly prefer it when a noob searches a raw vs jpeg instead of starting a new thread, but I don't get all pissy about it when I see it happen every week.  I either participate or skip the thread.  You will never have anything close to perfection in the beginners forum, it is the nature of the beast.

However, these lax rules don't apply to the rest of the forums on this site.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 27, 2008)

I agree with you that regulars don't need to bash on n00bs for asking n00b questions, but I do understand why some do it.


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## Dao (May 27, 2008)

I also own a forum myself for 5 years (non-photography).  From experience, you cannot stop members from asking same questions again and again.   And that is the fact.  Just like SPAM.  It will happen. Can't be stop unless you are in a closed forum.

There are a lot of people use search function I sure, but some do not. And usually those who ask questions (without search) are new to the forum (usually truth).  And I strongly believe that once nobody asking the same questions again and again, the forum is not so good anymore. (my forum has ups and downs) 


By no mean I against people asking questions.  In my forum, when someone ask a questions that had been answer before and if I had time, I will search it myself and post the link back in the same thread.  (and show them I search "xyz" for the result.


Anyway, back to the OP questions again.  I think you may want to take more indoor photos now and see how they looks like with your current setup.  If you are not satisfy, getting a fast lens such as 50mm f1.8 will be a good choice.


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## Eddie666 (May 28, 2008)

Sorry, didn't mean to set up an argument between you all.  I'll just go and ask all beginners they can't ask questions and that they should search for everything on the forum.  

the 50mm f1.8 seems to be popping up a lot so I'll look into that, thanks.  I'll go and ask in Jessops which flash they would recommend. 

As I have already said.  I am not the official photographer, I am taking my camera for the FUN side of it as I am enjoying it as a hobby.  I have got pretty good with landscapes etc (Good as in, I'm pleased with the outcome, no doubt they could be better but they are pretty good)  And I was just asking some advice about getting involved and learning about portrait pics as I haven't done them very much yet.  Thanks dEARlEADER, Wallyir and all those that answered the Q for me


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## reg (May 28, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> why do I get the impression you are not the official wedding photographer, but are planning to be one on that wedding anyway?



why do I get the impression that you're as big of a douche in real life as you are online?


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## Eddie666 (May 28, 2008)

reg said:


> why do I get the impression that you're as big of a douche in real life as you are online?


 
 Thanks dude!


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## reg (May 28, 2008)

I really registered to make that one post. I had registered before but never got the activation email, but this chucklehead inspired me to try again.


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## wallyir (May 28, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to set up an argument between you all. I'll just go and ask all beginners they can't ask questions and that they should search for everything on the forum.
> 
> the 50mm f1.8 seems to be popping up a lot so I'll look into that, thanks. I'll go and ask in Jessops which flash they would recommend.
> 
> As I have already said. I am not the official photographer, I am taking my camera for the FUN side of it as I am enjoying it as a hobby. I have got pretty good with landscapes etc (Good as in, I'm pleased with the outcome, no doubt they could be better but they are pretty good) And I was just asking some advice about getting involved and learning about portrait pics as I haven't done them very much yet. Thanks dEARlEADER, Wallyir and all those that answered the Q for me


Dont be discouraged,It`s ok to be new to something, it`s ok to ask questions,it is NOT ok to deride someone because they do,I`m thinking of getting a Moderator in on this.Newbies don`t need some of the rubbish we`ve  just copped, in fact we don`t need it at all.


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## dylj (May 28, 2008)

wallyir said:


> Dont be discouraged,It`s ok to be new to something, it`s ok to ask questions,it is NOT ok to deride someone because they do,I`m thinking of getting a Moderator in on this.Newbies don`t need some of the rubbish we`ve just copped, in fact we don`t need it at all.


 
For what it's worth, Jerry has been offering his opinion and advice very good-naturedly. In fact, he seems to be the brunt of most of the attacks in this thread ...


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## JerryPH (May 28, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> If you have nothing technical to contribute besides "google it", and you are annoyed by the subject it is not very helpful to the OP.



Where *you* get insulted from being told to do a search, someone else takes the hint and does it.  Now, who do you think is going to get the answer faster and in a more complete manner?  The one who gets insulted and complains or the person who smiles says "yeah, I forgot about that, good idea!"?

Now, should there be a beginner section?  SURE!  Do we need to repeat the same questions over and over and over?  A huge resounding NO.  Thats one of a forum's greatest assets, a knowledge base!

If you want social interaction... go to the off topic areas.  If you want answers... SEARCH first, then if your results are not satisfactory... ask away!

The reasons are simple.  How many times do you see the "what camera should I buy" threads?  How many times is the answer the same?  Would you rather spend time reading something interesting or looking at questions that you've already read 5 times in the last day by 5 different people again?


People tend to get lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver platter.  Me?  I don't wait for someone to do that... I am proactive about my education.  As an example, maybe thats why someone with under 1 year's experience with a dSLR has already shot 4 weddings and a 50th anniversary with GREAT success in that time, and also why someone with that short of a time in the field is a CONTRIBUTOR to the site, and not just someone with questions.


I sincerely do appreciate when some refer to me as a senior contributor or someone knowledgeable... makes me feel fantastic, but really... I am *nothing* compared to the some of the incredible talent pool here... but just imagine if MORE people had my attitude?

I'll leave it at that.


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## JerryPH (May 28, 2008)

wallyir said:


> Dont be discouraged,It`s ok to be new to something, it`s ok to ask questions,it is NOT ok to deride someone because they do,I`m thinking of getting a Moderator in on this.Newbies don`t need some of the rubbish we`ve  just copped, in fact we don`t need it at all.




Do you see what I mean?  You look at this and want to complain.  You want to now start PMing mods (you think they don't see this post?  think again  ).

What you see as an insult (do a search!), a wiser person WILL see as advice and do it... and guess what?  THEY will have the answer... while you will have wasted time whining and complaining.

Are people really like that outside in the real world?  I am sure they are, but I can guarantee you that I have never met one, and maybe if I did, perhaps I infected them with a little positive proactive outlook and they aren't like that around me.

Imagine the amount of time you invested in your posts in this thread... now, how many photographic questions could you have answered with a search in this time frame?  Just a little food for thought.


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## Eddie666 (May 28, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> The reasons are simple. How many times do you see the "what camera should I buy" threads? How many times is the answer the same?


I have searched that, especially when I wanted to know what one to buy but the response should and tends to be "What are you using it for"? This person then gets SPECIFIC help to their needs.  You wouldn't suggest the same camera for someone interested in different aspects of photography.



JerryPH said:


> People tend to get lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Me? I don't wait for someone to do that... I am proactive about my education. As an example, maybe thats why someone with under 1 year's experience with a dSLR has already shot 4 weddings and a 50th anniversary with GREAT success in that time, and also why someone with that short of a time in the field is a CONTRIBUTOR to the site, and not just someone with questions.


 
Well done oh great photographer with 1 years experience and 4 weddings etc who contributes to the site as well as asking questions!

I contribute to other posts of peoples images but mainly yes I do ask questions... why? because I'm a BEGINNER!  I need to ask questions to learn, same as you had loads of questions when you were starting out.  I only wanted about 2 people to answer my Q about what flash to use, then you come in and say "I'm not going to help you, look for yourself.  What's the point?  Just stay out of the convo if you have no intentions of helping.



JerryPH said:


> I sincerely do appreciate when some refer to me as a senior contributor or someone knowledgeable... makes me feel fantastic, but really... I am *nothing* compared to the some of the incredible talent pool here... but *just imagine if MORE people had my attitude?*
> 
> I'll leave it at that.


 
Yeah imagine it.  Nobody would ever learn anything and beginners would be lost for help.  Great site we have then isn't it!


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## JerryPH (May 28, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> Well done oh great photographer with 1 years experience and 4 weddings etc who contributes to the site as well as asking questions!



Wow, talk about someone that is purposely missing the boat JUST to be argumentative.  



Eddie666 said:


> I have searched that, especially when I wanted to know what one to buy but the response should and tends to be "What are you using it for"? This person then gets SPECIFIC help to their needs. You wouldn't suggest the same camera for someone interested in different aspects of photography.



You see?  If works, you just proved my very point!  Had you not done a search, instead of asking what kind of camera you needed, you saw "this person" get SPECIFIC help, and you did not need to ask that question again for the 25th time.  Dude, you are PROVING my point perfectly!!!



Eddie666 said:


> I contribute to other posts of peoples images but mainly yes I do ask questions... why? because I'm a BEGINNER!  I need to ask questions to learn, same as you had loads of questions when you were starting out.  I only wanted about 2 people to answer my Q about what flash to use, then you come in and say "I'm not going to help you, look for yourself.  What's the point?  Just stay out of the convo if you have no intentions of helping.


 
So, let me see... becuase you are a beginner, you do not need to search on your own, you need someone to hand hold you through EACH and EVERY question you will ever have here, am I getting that right?  Because you are a beginner, this site owes you a personal response, right?  You have absolutely NO responsibility or desire or impetus to press a single button, enter your question and get the answer NOW, right?

How old are you?  6?



Eddie666 said:


> Yeah imagine it.  Nobody would ever learn anything and beginners would be lost for help.  Great site we have then isn't it!



It is the best photography site I have found, and at one point, I was a member at over 30 of them.  I stayed here.  As for you... because of your attitude, I can guarantee YOU will be lost for help for a LONG time, posting here or not.  You want everything on a silver platter.  Sorry, life is not like that... hate to disappoint you.

Grow up, will you??


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## Eddie666 (May 28, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Wow, talk about someone that is purposely missing the boat JUST to be argumentative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I agree it is a good/brilliant site for all aspects of photography.... shame though, with this attitude towards beginners, it will quickly die out.  

I've already admitted I don't know hardly anything about the subject as I am new to it, I DID try the search (Which you never asked me if I did) and there were things in the responses to the posts I didn't understand.


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## dEARlEADER (May 28, 2008)

reg said:


> why do I get the impression that you're as big of a douche in real life as you are online?



There is no need for name slinging like this.  It doesn't help forward the forum.


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## dEARlEADER (May 28, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Where *you* get insulted from being told to do a search, someone else takes the hint and does it.  Now, who do you think is going to get the answer faster and in a more complete manner?  The one who gets insulted and complains or the person who smiles says "yeah, I forgot about that, good idea!"?



I personally don't get insulted by being told to search.  I have never been told to search.  However noob's here like the OP are so fresh to the forum that telling them to go search could be construed as unwelcoming.  If the best you can conjure up is "go search" at least use more productive way like how the gruff but loveable JIP did in this thread:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124665

If you don't have time to do this, then leave it for the next person.



JerryPH said:


> Now, should there be a beginner section?  SURE!  Do we need to repeat the same questions over and over and over?  A huge resounding NO.  Thats one of a forum's greatest assets, a knowledge base!



Jerry... why do I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall? Scroll through the threads of the beginners forum and tell me what here could not be answered by way of google?  Everything has been covered and it is only logical that in this particular beginners forum that questions will be repeated time and time again.  Beginners don't often have much extra to talk about beside beginners type things.   




JerryPH said:


> The reasons are simple.  How many times do you see the "what camera should I buy" threads?  How many times is the answer the same?  Would you rather spend time reading something interesting or looking at questions that you've already read 5 times in the last day by 5 different people again?



Jerry, you are under no obligation to read or respond to a "what camera should I buy" thread.  You act as if this is work put on your desk that you must complete.  It takes no time at all to read a subject line and move on to something more desirable if the subject is not within your taste.  Further, if something "interesting" is your goal to keep you stimulated I would suggest you frequent the subforums more geared for professionals and prosumers.  You should also be asking yourself why post counts to repetitive threads are so high.  Look at the Canon vs Nikon or Raw vs JPEG threads... every week they come up and every week they garner 50+ responses.  These are hot topics and they allow noobs to respond and form their first opinions and get comfortable with the forum.  

You pontificate the use of search by your own example of having 2000 posts to this forum with only 2 questions ever asked.  You suggest that if everyone was like you this forum would be a better place.  My response to this would be this forum would be dead because nobody will be asking any questions and as such, the forums archive would be deficient.  Aside from the gallery, technical information and advice for everything photography can be found using google.  

I appreciate your methodology of proper research from several sources before posting questions.  I try to do the same.  I also appreciate the constructive advise you provide to the forum.  It was your help and pictures of I think a St. Paticks day parade that convinced me to get my Nikkor 18-200.  However, I don't agree with your idealolgy that somehow the beginners forum is able to exist without repetitive questions.  This is like fitting a square peg in a round hole.  By arguing this point I am no way intending to disrespect you.


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## PhotoDonkey (May 28, 2008)

I think the point you're all missing is that Jerry WAS trying to help facilitate a quicker answer to your question (and future questions) by suggesting you do a search.

I understand the feeling that the beginner's forum would be useless if nobody asked questions but did searches, however I think the opposite is true.  Answers to unasked questions would be provided more quickly because "senior members" wouldn't have to spend as much time answering the same question over and over again.

I for one appreciate Jerry reminding us to do a quick search, because if he hadn't, there are alot of questions I wouldn't have had answered in a timely manner because I didn't have the presence of mind to do a search first.


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## Alfred D. (May 28, 2008)

Thanks again, Jerry.
And dEARI.


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## asfixiate (May 28, 2008)

in all honesty...I've always taken what JerryPH says as helpful and straightforward advice.  Nothing sugar coated and nothing honkey dorey.  If you ask what color the sky is he tells you to look at the sky...This is advice that allows you to become self dependant and not rely on everyone else.

If you sit there and bash him he's going to defend himself...he's staying helpful still though.


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

I suppose the thought could be something like:

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach that man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime".

Someone needs to show others that there is more than one way to learn things other than posting a well repeated question and wait on their butts for an answer.

I'm not the only one doing it.  Poor MAV has modified his sig and increased it to a gigantic font size to attract attention, but it is STILL getting little results.

Just feels like banging your head into a wall some days.


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## asfixiate (May 29, 2008)

this is the world we live in.  Internet has made humans useless.


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I suppose the thought could be something like:
> 
> "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach that man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime".
> 
> ...




lol....


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I suppose the thought could be something like:
> 
> "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach that man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime".
> 
> ...



It could also  "feed the starving man a fish to live another day.... and tomorrow he will realize he needs to start learning to fish or he won't live very long"


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## dEARlEADER (May 29, 2008)

asfixiate said:


> this is the world we live in.  Internet has made humans useless.




lol.... here were are..... a bunch of useless humans on the internet...


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## asfixiate (May 29, 2008)

strike out my comment about useless.

It was me venting about something at work....All is well here in TPF.


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## Dao (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I suppose the thought could be something like:
> 
> "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach that man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime".
> 
> ...




Don't worry about it too much 
As this forum still accept new users (which is good).  People will still asking for fish.:hail:  By the way Jerry, thanks for all the wonderful post you had in the past (as well as others).  oh ..  I just thought of something.  For me, I learn a lot since I join this forum in April (got my DSLR at that time).  And at that time, I do not know what to ask as I was so new and of course it will be hard for me to search. It's because I just do not know where to start.

Thanks to other beginners asking questions and quality answers by person like you and others, I learned a lot.  With that basic knowledge, I was able to search more in here as well as in Google.  Now come and think about it,  it is still good for people to ask the same questions again and again.


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## wallyir (May 29, 2008)

Please don`t mistake my original intention,It wasn`t to start a blue with jerryph or anyone for that matter, I just thought that a post was a little abrupt and said so,jerryph is right that newer members should do a search first,finding things for our selves is a good way to learn but newbies will jump right in and with great gusto imeadiately ask a million questions that have been anwsered ten million times,a kindly direction to go to search would save some dramas. jerryph I apolize unreseveredly if caused you problems or messed up your day it wasn`t my intention to do so,I will reserve the right to point out something I feel to be wrong:hail:.


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

No probs, we're all good.


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## dangergoinoff (Jun 1, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> *Jerry, you are under no obligation to read or respond to a "what camera should I buy" thread.*



Exactly if it is beneath posters then dont enter.
Not that hard.


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## Alfred D. (Jun 1, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> Something in your Corn flakes today man? Cuz it seems your into shredding Noob's today.



Noobs come here to learn how to be a photographer and how to make photos. That's good.
But part of that is that wannabe photographers also need to learn when to take a back seat and to NOT make photos!

Sometimes you need to use your brains, not your emotions.


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## manaheim (Jun 1, 2008)

^^^ Hey, um, seriously... back off of Jerry.


He has to be _the_ most conscientious responder on this entire forum, and takes a lot of time to try to really help people out in a constructive but unfiltered way.
He happily shares his knowledge with everyone without gripe- beginners and pros alike.
He really knows his stuff. I read this site every day and so many posts I'm like "Oh, I should see if I can help this out... oh wait, never mind, Jerry posted." 
[EDIT] I tend to think I know a lot about photography and I'm learning something new from Jerry every day. lol  Clearly I know nada.
I also happen to very much agree with him on this.

I could go off on my take, but as he says, it's been covered. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, don't have the equipment, and don't have an assistant, then you should run run run away.


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## thinkricky (Jun 1, 2008)

This is STUPID! I can not believe Jerry and everyone else who is even arguing about this. Who really cares why he posted about something someone asked 3 years ago?!? 

You don't know his life or most of the people on this forum. If you feel so strongly about search engines then just post a link to GOOGLE instead of writing an essay on why people never use it.

What makes you think everyone likes GOOGLE? Age is also a factor. You don't know how old this person is. He could be young and just wants to have conversation. You on the other hand seem OLD from the picture in your avatar. So, *maybe you have a different perspective about public forums*. Let people be people instead of wishing everyone acted more like you. Why don't you stop singling someone out for asking a question.

And about the wedding... Of course they already know they need experience! What do you think they are trying to accomplish going to the wedding??? If the couple hires someone w/o any experience, feedback, or reviews then that's their *OWN FAULT*. 

Leave the photographer alone. You're attitude is so negative and not motivational what so ever. How do you expect anyone to feel when you tell them that they aren't good enough. 

blah blah blah about PRO's They all started somewhere.


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## JerryPH (Jun 1, 2008)

thinkricky said:


> This is STUPID! I can not believe Jerry and everyone else who is even arguing about this.... He could be young and just wants to have conversation. You on the other hand seem OLD from the picture in your avatar. So, *maybe you have a different perspective about public forums*. Let people be people instead of wishing everyone acted more like you. Why don't you stop singling someone out for asking a question.


 
That had better not have been targeted at me. Age has nothing to do with being lazy or NOT being lazy, nor the original intent and opinions of my post in this thread. You also don't start a thread asking for help just for conversational purposes, I don't care what the age is.

What is "stupid"... is adding comments to a thread that is basically hashed out, and everyone kissed and made up, and someone reopens it, then adds irrelevent comments like age or experience to a basically closed topic.

You may kindly think of me as "old", I am 48, but I tell you what, I still jog 10 kilometers a week, attend 3 BJJ classes a week, work an average of 60 hours a week, 43 weeks a year, and STILL find time (I'd conservatilvely place it at about 6-8 hours a week) to come here (and another photo forum site), and participate. I'm not including my other hobbies (modifying and racing my cars), which I also do at least once a month. I also have a wonderful lady that I am in a strong and healthy relationship with since 1999.

Not bad for an old fart... now, how about you? What contributuons have YOU made to this place?  

Here is the biggest joke... I started into dSLRs 11 months ago, and I have been graced with comments from professionals and other advanced members here that say they are learning from me... ME a bloody newb! (I appreciate it guys, but trust me, I learn more from you, than you from me... lol)

That has to say SOMETHING about my methodology... now imagine what this place would be like if a few more people folowed my example? We'd have some very experienced newbs here, and the level of the conversations would rise from "what camera or lens is the best" to some prettyt heavy and INTERESTING advanced photographic discussions.

My only "weak" spot here if you will, is that I am a reactive poster, not a proactive poster. I rarely start threads, but jump into existing ones. It comes from being an IT trainer, I suppose. I listen to questions and fix and teach, not create topics. I "create" elsewhere when the time permits (started a blog on photography, and two private sites for advanced PCM car tuning for the GM 3800 community, and advanced BJJ techniques for my class mates). 

What I think pisses off a lot of people is that I am passionate about many aspects of photography. Likely one of the ones I feel strongst about is having a totally inexperienced photographer think that they can outshoot a professional in 20 with minutes or less preparation or experience in wedding scenarios, and did not even TRY to find out what is involved.. just "tell me what to do, and keep your other opinions to yourself".

Reality sucks, and life doesn't work that way, and if some people here do not appreaciate my brand of being up front and in your face sometimes with my opinions, they are more than welcome to place me on ignore. 

Everyone will be happier.


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## thinkricky (Jun 1, 2008)

What I thought was stupid is arguing about someone posting a question. He is simply stating he's going to a wedding and he wanted suggestions on what he may need. 

You yourself stated that leave the weddings for the pros. It would be the couple's fault in the first place to hire such an inexperienced photographer. 

I didn't directly call you old. (BTW not bad with the running) What I meant by OLD is maybe 
you (or anyone older) may have a different opinion about what you use this forum for than what we (younger people) use this forum for.


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## Alfred D. (Jun 1, 2008)

thinkricky said:


> maybe you (or anyone older) may have a different opinion about what you use this forum for than what we (younger people) use this forum for.



True. And if what you "(younger people) use this forum for" is basically to avoid having to do some basic searching and googling before you ask a question, then  other people, older or not, may feel prostituted for their knowledge.
I'm told that is not a nice sensation.


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 1, 2008)

manaheim said:


> ^^^ Hey, um, seriously... back off of Jerry.
> 
> He has to be _the_ most conscientious responder on this entire forum, and takes a lot of time to try to really help people out in a constructive but unfiltered way.
> He happily shares his knowledge with everyone without gripe- beginners and pros alike.
> ...



Relax..... this isn't an attack Jerry thread... this is a discussion about the direction of the beginners forum and Jerry happens to be leading up one side of the argument... I'm sure he's not going to bed weeping at night and nobody knowledgable is attacking his credibility..


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 1, 2008)

Alfred D. said:


> True. And if what you "(younger people) use this forum for" is basically to avoid having to do some basic searching and googling before you ask a question, then  other people, older or not, may feel prostituted for their knowledge.
> I'm told that is not a nice sensation.



LMAO... Alfred D. you are one dry dude...


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## bahandi (Jun 1, 2008)

good read guys... lol... jerry, i'm am one of those newbs that have read many a post from you... would you kindly pm me or even post that blog of yours on here?

oh wait, i think there's a 'share photoblog' thread on here (hope it's not the other forum i lurk). time for the search button


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## Dao (Jun 1, 2008)

I think it is better to lock this thread.


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## RyanLilly (Jun 2, 2008)

Good Read!


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## Eddie666 (Jun 2, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> What I think pisses off a lot of people is that I am passionate about many aspects of photography. Likely one of the ones I feel strongst about is having a totally inexperienced photographer think that they can *outshoot a professional in 20 with minutes* or less preparation or experience in wedding scenarios, and did not even TRY to find out what is involved.. just "tell me what to do, and keep your other opinions to yourself".


 
That better not be aimed at me either!.... How many times have I said on here that I have no intentions of being their photographer for the day... All I wanted to do was take my camera to the reception and get some fun pics, Also I said that I was interested in starting to look into portraits... I don't consider myself a photographer, I do it as a fun hobby and just wanted a little tip.  I don't know if there is any point in posting on this forum if this is what you get, also I put my first pics up and had 1 bit of feedback (Which was helpful)

Anyway, for tricky's post I am 21


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## JerryPH (Jun 2, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> That better not be aimed at me either!




Well,  you pretty much answered the question yourself.


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## Rhubarb (Jun 2, 2008)

I think I need to puke... there is too much mis-guided love in this thread...    uke-rig:uke:


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## Eddie666 (Jun 3, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> That had better not have been targeted at me.


 
Likewise


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## Senor Hound (Jun 3, 2008)

I can understand people getting upset about people posting stuff over and over, but at least its quarantined to a beginner's forum.  I think we should all (myself included) just say nothing when we feel like really hurting some one else's feelings.  It may be a bit hypocritical for me to be saying this, but maybe we should just chill a bit.  Listen to some Bob Marley or something like that.  Its all good.  Nothing that happens on this forum is worth getting upset over (something I learned just the other day).

I sometimes post things on here that I could google up, because I like the interaction with other members.  Its how you learn who people are, and build rapport with some of the senior members.  There are a few people who I found out were really nice cats only after I posted my, "What camera should I buy," style of posts (I could list them, but that's irrelevant).  And the truth is, if you have a specific question that's slightly different than the general threads out there (we're all special), then its cool to post your own thread asking your special question.

Remember that this is partially a social interaction site, how strange or possibly even pathetic that may sound.  I don't care if other people don't like it, I'm gonna post some things that may not be totally necessary, because I want to.  And IMO, I would hope others do the same.


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## JerryPH (Jun 3, 2008)

Eddie666 said:


> Likewise



Well, since the bitchfest here in this thread, I've started another thread in the "beyond the basics" area with the intent of gathering up info JUST for the newbs that want info on wedding photography (holy crap, are yous serious?  Look... someone is actually wanting to do all the work for you, and all you have to do is ASK!!).

I am kinda hoping that the people who are all so avidly brandishing their pitchforks and what not about weddings and newbs offer something there... but trust me, I am not holding my breath.  I'll do it regardless simply for the exercise.

It seems that people find it a LOT easier to ***** and complain than do something genuinely productive and interesting... because the interesting stuff takes a modicum of thought and effort.

The way I see it, what YOU offer in *THIS TRHREAD* will tell me how sincere you all are... or not. 

So, let's right away separate the posers from the people who really want to learn and ask about the things they want.  

I'm done with this thread.  Let's get PRODUCTIVE.

Eddie, yeah this one is pointed right at you, but not just you, but *all other* newb that wanted to bust my chops on this.  Time to man up now... or quietly crawl away into a nice quiet corner and watch from a distance .


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## Eddie666 (Jun 4, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Eddie, yeah this one is pointed right at you, but not just you, but *all other* newb that wanted to bust my chops on this. Time to man up now... or quietly crawl away into a nice quiet corner and watch from a distance .


 
I understand you want to get it all done with and carry on to giving advice/helping etc  but just to wrap things up, I never wanted to bust YOUR chops.. If you didn't get involved in this thread then I'd still have the same answer from the first few posts... 50mm f1.8 lens and the only other thing I want to research is flash but I'll direct that to your new post (Even though, as a beginner, I tend to stay out of "Beyond the basics" as there are things there I don't understand.. Hence posting in "Beginners" 

I am with you though, lets close this board and carry on with actuall being productive.


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