# Senior Forum Members, PLEASE HELP! In need of some advice :/



## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 12, 2014)

So I'm in a bit of a pickle. I'll try to make a long story short, but could really use some advice from some members. 

A few weeks back I got in contact with a printing distributor who works with many of the small businesses in my area, which is awesome because he could potentially hook me up with many of the businesses he advertises and prints for. He does menu printing for restaurants, store sign decals and even big stuff like full car advertisement wraps for delivery services. Well after meeting him he "promised" to get my foot in the door with a new restaurant that was having it's grand opening in a few weeks, he knew they needed a photographer and would pass my info along to them. 

A few weeks pass by and I hear nothing from the guy, no returned phone calls, ignored emails, all that jazz. So I assume he no longer wishes to work with me and I end up booking a prom for a former client the same weekend of the grand opening, figuring the restaurant obviously isn't interested. 

Well as of this morning, I receive an email from the restaurant asking me if I am now available for their event. It's a 2 day (Saturday & Sunday) grand opening celebration weekend. 

Under any other circumstances I would politely tell the restaurant that I am booked for that weekend and am sorry I cannot help, but here's the tough situation:

The prom client is based in my hometown, 3 hours south of where I live now. She is a great client and I have made a sort of "schedule" for hometown clients, where I travel once a month to hometown to set up photo shoots for my local people. My mom is still there too so even if I only book 1 or 2 sessions when I plan to come out, I still get to visit with my parents. Since moving to the Chicago area it's been tough landing gigs due to the mass amounts of competition so setting up a few photo shoots in one weekend at my hometown helps supplement my income. 

But the restaurant IS in the Chicago area where I live now so I won't have to do the grueling 3 hour drive for just one session and I know the pay day for a 2 day event is going to be much greater than a 1 hour prom session. Also, because it is in my area this could potentially give me future gigs with other establishments and the families attending the event. 

So here's the question: Do I tell the restaurant no and stick to my commitments, or do I cancel on my prom client and offer her a free photo shoot for the weekend after to "replicate" her prom due to a conflicting schedule? 

I feel like a total ass. Just really need some input.


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## Trever1t (Apr 12, 2014)

Ethically there's no dilemma as I see it. You keep the Prom shoot as promised. Cancelling on a teenager's big day because you can make more $ for your time locally is just wrong.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 12, 2014)

Trever1t said:


> Ethically there's no dilemma as I see it. You keep the Prom shoot as promised. Cancelling on a teenager's big day because you can make more $ for your time locally is just wrong.



This I understand, but it's NOT the money that is making this a tough call, it's the fact that the weekend opening is in my area and can give my business the exposure it needs. I've been doing this for a year and have only booked a handful of shoots in the Chicago area, almost all of my business has been in my hometown 3 hours away. THAT is why it's a pickle. Not because I am being greedy.


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## Trever1t (Apr 12, 2014)

Either way, you made a commitment to the senior. I might or might not attempt to communicate with the Senior for her feelings...sometimes just laying the cards on the table is what must be done BUT I'd make sure she knew clearly that it was entirely up to her as she did commit to you first. Customer service is going to go further than anything.


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## Overread (Apr 12, 2014)

Are there any other local photographers you could network with? You could offer them the Prom job and let them take the money in full from that and that leaves you free to take the other job. It's not ideal, but it means the prom is covered and you can cover the event that might net you a long term benefit for your company. 

Of course make sure anyone you hire in your place is as good or better than you - you don't want ot hire someone who messes things up (because any problem will still be 100% your fault in the eyes of the client). Strictly speaking it should be the extra shoot that you're hiring to cover because you've already got a commitment to the prom shoot. 

Otherwise I would say that you should honour your contract and agreement with the prom shoot. There will always be other opportunities in the future


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 12, 2014)

Trever1t said:


> Either way, you made a commitment to the senior. I might or might not attempt to communicate with the Senior for her feelings...sometimes just laying the cards on the table is what must be done BUT I'd make sure she knew clearly that it was entirely up to her as she did commit to you first. Customer service is going to go further than anything.



Yes, I had planned on calling her personally and describing my dilemma. Letting her know that she is priority and it is completely her call since the restaurant has decided to a last minute booking, not her. I think this will work best. I ask her straight forward and gauge her reaction. She's a great client and I wouldn't want to lose her.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 12, 2014)

Overread said:


> Are there any other local photographers you could network with? You could offer them the Prom job and let them take the money in full from that and that leaves you free to take the other job. It's not ideal, but it means the prom is covered and you can cover the event that might net you a long term benefit for your company.
> 
> Of course make sure anyone you hire in your place is as good or better than you - you don't want ot hire someone who messes things up (because any problem will still be 100% your fault in the eyes of the client). Strictly speaking it should be the extra shoot that you're hiring to cover because you've already got a commitment to the prom shoot.
> 
> Otherwise I would say that you should honour your contract and agreement with the prom shoot. There will always be other opportunities in the future



I hadn't thought of this, it's a great idea, but unfortunately there aren't many photographers in my hometown area and the only decent ones that I feel would be on par with my work cost twice as much as I do.


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## paigew (Apr 12, 2014)

Dang that sucks. Obviously the Chicago shoot is where you want/need to be. I agree about trying to find another photog to cover (if this is okayed by client). Good luck.


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## JerryVenz (Apr 12, 2014)

When it gets on MY CALENDER that session has total priority. What we have learned in 25-years as portrait and event photographers is to have priorities for WHERE we place sessions on our calender.

We rarely place portrait sessions on Saturdays--that's reserved for events like weddings, business grand openings, cultural events--there are FIVE OTHER DAYS OF THE WEEK for portrait sessions.

Besides most of the good outdoor locations are WAY to full of people and weekend warriors (part time "professional" photographers) to make the experience enjoyable for our clients.

In addition we have found over the years that most small businesses that we did photography for and networked with were a waste of time. They had NO MONEY for photography and forgot about us as soon as we delivered the product.


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## otherprof (Apr 12, 2014)

If it always paid to do the right thing, we would always do the right thing. Sometimes it costs you money, opportunity, etc. That is why we applaud people who do the right thing - it sometimes involves making a sacrifice.


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## KmH (Apr 12, 2014)

JerryVenz said:


> In addition we have found over the years that most small businesses that we did photography for and networked with were a waste of time. They had NO MONEY for photography and forgot about us as soon as we delivered the product.


QFT.

The rest of Jerry's post is also fundamental retail photography business planning stuff.


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## curtyoungblood (Apr 12, 2014)

I'll start with a disclaimer that I'm not a business person, so take my observation as you will.

It seems that your business is actually based in your home town right now. You say that most of your business is done there, and that you're dealing with a great client that you'd don't want to lose. On the other hand you have a new client that you hope leads to something better down the road.

You need to decide if it is worth risking your sure thing for a potential gain in the future. If you're willing to totally commit to the Chicago area, then do it, but if you need to rely on your income from your hometown, it probably isn't the right time to start upsetting your clients there.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 12, 2014)

You've already made the commitment; I don't think it says to a client that he/she is a priority when you cancel to take another job (and what's in the contract?). Seems like you need to get a handle on the scheduling if you're going to take on jobs in two different cities/towns to allow for traveling so you aren't cancelling on clients.

Does the restaurant need you to be there the full two days? I'd find out what the time frame is for their event and let them know you already have something scheduled but it's not a commitment for the entire weekend, then get back to them if you can work it out (to go back and forth and cover both).


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## table1349 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wow, sorry but there isn't a question in my mind at all. In the world I was raised in many years ago your word is your life. You make a commitment you keep it.  End of story. If you don't you can damn well count on a real big decline in business.


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## runnah (Apr 12, 2014)

Your word is your most valuable asset. Lose that and you will have nothing.


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## pixmedic (Apr 12, 2014)

if your word is your bond, then honor yourself by honoring the commitment you made. 
tell the restaurant that you are terribly sorry, but the dates the are asking for are already booked.


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 13, 2014)

There really shouldn't be any question on this, if you are working as a professional you were hired to shoot the first job booked, you are obligated to keep that shoot. I've had to turn down more shoots than I can remember. Clients hire me, they don't want someone else. I turned down a simple $10,000 5 day shoot last summer because I had already agreed to a more challenging $3,000 10 day shoot. Both are really good clients of mine and fortunately the one I turned down understood that they tried to book my time too late.

You win some you lose some, but you have to go with the first one.


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## Steve5D (Apr 13, 2014)

I guess there are a couple of ways to look at this.

Ethically, yes, you made a commitment to the prom shoot. That's where your focus needs to be. Talking to the senior is, I think, acceptable. If the shoot can be done after, or even before, you could discount it as much as you want, and be freed up for the restaurant shoot. 

I know folks who would simply view it as airlines view it: A case of simple overbooking. Nothing more, nothing less. The difference, of course, is that you're not some huge, faceless corporation. You're a photographer.

Some questions: You say it's been "a few weeks". My daughter, who's probably be around your age, told me she would mail me something "in a couple days". She told me that in February. Can you be specific as to how long it was? 

Also, is it possible that you can do both? Sure, driving that far can suck, but sometimes it's what you have to do. If you could arrange to cover, say, he second half of the first day of the restaurant gig, perhaps you can save it.

Be creative, and make sure you explain the dilemma to the restaurant, as well...


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 13, 2014)

If another photographer costs double. Pay the difference out if your pocket. Send that photographer to the senior shoot (as long as you made the client aware io the switch. Then take on the two day event and make a smaller profit due to the added cost of the other photographer.  Both parties are happy. You keep your senior happy and you get your foot in the door at the restraint.   

Heck it might be you send the resteraunt a quote and they decide to go with someone else. And it might not even be an issue.  

But either way I'd honor what you have on the schedule.


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## SCraig (Apr 13, 2014)

So, why not shoot the senior portraits AT the restaurant?  Sure you'd have to pay the senior's expenses to get there, and might have to buy dinner for 2, but it will save you face.

Other than that, a verbal contract is as binding as a written contract in my opinion.  I never, EVER go back on my word.


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## tirediron (Apr 13, 2014)

Let's think about this from another point of view.  Yes, the restaurant event might be a decent payday, BUT... as Jerry and others have mentioned, the 'promised' net-working opportunities probably won't translate into a lot more if any, money down the road.  They might, but in my experience, it's unlikely.  What is MUCH more likely to translate into greater long-term earnings is the senior shoot.  Let's face it; who talks more than teenage girls?  You do a good job for her, and she's going to tell ALL her friends...  likewise, cancel on her, and she's going to tell all her friends.  

In short:  She's booked, she's got your time!


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2014)

12sndsgood said:


> If another photographer costs double. Pay the difference out if your pocket. Send that photographer to the senior shoot (as long as you made the client aware io the switch. Then take on the two day event and make a smaller profit due to the added cost of the other photographer.  Both parties are happy. You keep your senior happy and you get your foot in the door at the restraint.
> 
> Heck it might be you send the resteraunt a quote and they decide to go with someone else. And it might not even be an issue.
> 
> But either way I'd honor what you have on the schedule.


The problem I have with this whole idea is the the senior didn't hire another photographer.  It's not like renting a car.  Photographers and their styles are not interchangeable.


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## tirediron (Apr 13, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > If another photographer costs double. Pay the difference out if your pocket. Send that photographer to the senior shoot (as long as you made the client aware io the switch. Then take on the two day event and make a smaller profit due to the added cost of the other photographer.  Both parties are happy. You keep your senior happy and you get your foot in the door at the restraint.
> ...


Totally agree; it's one thing if you're sick, your Mom dies, or some similar circumstance, but that's not the case.  The OP has control over the situation and simply needs to make a decision.


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## orljustin (Apr 13, 2014)

You know the answer.  You're just looking for permission to dump the prom customer from us.

Good luck.


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## snerd (Apr 13, 2014)

orljustin said:


> You know the answer.  You're just looking for permission to dump the prom customer from us.
> 
> Good luck.



This. Beat me to it. You know the answer............ you're just looking for confirmation. Do the right thing.

PS: I'm a "senior member" in age only.


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## sm4him (Apr 13, 2014)

I missed this, as I haven't been on much the last few days. And because I am NOT a "senior member." I've not been on TPF nearly long enough, and I'm not old enough--don't let the early onset dementia, the middle-age spread, the deteriorating vision, the bad knees or the loss of hearing fool you. 
 But I absolutely agree with what seems to be majority opinion: Honor the commitment you've already made. Because, in the end, your integrity is worth FAR more than either of these jobs and it's not worth going back on your word just for the "hope" that this will get things going for you in Chicago. 

Like SteveD, I wonder if there is ANY possibility of doing both?  Tell the restaurant that you are SO sorry, but you've booked this specific amount of time, and then see if they'd like for you to be available later in the day, that evening, the next day, whatever. Yeah, you'd have a lot of drive time, but it's an option. 
Plus, it would say to the restaurant that you are willing to do just about ANYthing EXCEPT not honoring another commitment--and it tells them that you are busy and "in demand" as a photographer, and that booking further ahead (especially for a grand opening) is a REALLY good idea.

Lastly--what I would NOT do is talk to the Senior about this situation and "explain" your dilemma to her. This is NOT her problem; she booked a photographer already. This is YOUR problem--back out of your commitment to her, or don't, but don't try to make it her problem. I think talking to her about it would put her in a VERY uncomfortable position. I mean, really, what's she going to say?? At 18, there's NO way I had the kind of confrontational skills to handle this. I'd have just said, "well, sure, I understand. You have to do what's best for your business." But I would have FELT like you'd backed out on me, and I would very, VERY likely not have hired you again.  Heck, that would probably still be my response to someone TODAY, because you know, if they came to me and basically say they want MY permission to back out of a commitment to me, well, I don't think I want to rely on that person much anyway.


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## tirediron (Apr 13, 2014)

sm4him said:


> ...Lastly--what I would NOT do is talk to the Senior about this situation and "explain" your dilemma to her. This is NOT her problem; she booked a photographer already. This is YOUR problem--back out of your commitment to her, or don't, but don't try to make it her problem. I think talking to her about it would put her in a VERY uncomfortable position. I mean, really, what's she going to say?? At 18, there's NO way I had the kind of confrontational skills to handle this. I'd have just said, "well, sure, I understand. You have to do what's best for your business." But I would have FELT like you'd backed out on me, and I would very, VERY likely not have hired you again.  Heck, that would probably still be my response to someone TODAY, because you know, if they came to me and basically say they want MY permission to back out of a commitment to me, well, I don't think I want to rely on that person much anyway.


This.  Exactly.  Perfectly put Sharon!


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed. 

apparently you thought he was joking. Business isn't like that.  If you don't do that job now, you are backing out on the guy that said he "would get you in" and depending on how or what this business entails he or they could very well be PISSED.

The prom queen is the double book. I think YOU misread this entire situation.


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## pixmedic (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed.
> 
> apparently you thought he was joking. Business isn't like that.  If you don't do that job now, you are backing out on the guy that said he "would get you in" and depending on how or what this business entails he or they could very well be PISSED.
> 
> The prom queen is the double book. I think YOU misread this entire situation.



If a client wants a date reserved, they pay a deposit. No deposit = no reservations. 
Time isn't "booked" until we have money in hand, unless other arrangements have been made.
That's how we do it anyway.


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## tirediron (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed.
> 
> apparently you thought he was joking. Business isn't like that.  If you don't do that job now, you are backing out on the guy that said he "would get you in" and depending on how or what this business entails he or they could very well be PISSED.
> 
> The prom queen is the double book. I think YOU misread this entire situation.


Ummm, sorry, but I think _*you've*_ mis-read the entire situation.  An "I'll get you a gig" is worth exactly nothing until you have a commitment.  It I kept space open for every tire-kicker that was thinking about hiring me, I'd have a LOT of open space and precious little income.  If the restaurant gig had been serious, they would have committed to a date & time.  I'm willing to bet their intent was to keep the OP "in reserve" in case their primary bailed.  THAT is how a lot of business works!


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

tirediron said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed.
> ...


That isn't their problem.
They have a referred photographer with word she agreed to do that shoot. someone promising to get her the shoot (some people take this seriously) who probably further promised the restaurant they have a photographer based on the o.p.s. response.
That's what they have. The o.p. admits they agreed.
if the o.p. wanted to verify dates, take a deposit, whatever. The o.p. should have called.
chances are the opening day has been planned for a while. And the o.p was probably even told when it was. The o.p. just didn't catch on. 
Waiting for a client to call isn't exactly pro active. I find it hard to believe how this is the clients issue.
I cant see how I misread anything. we have a referral, a agreement to do it. And a email expecting them to show up. I doubt the dates for opening day have changed at all that was probably a reminder email for verification.


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## pixmedic (Apr 13, 2014)

The email from the restaurant was asking the OP if the dates were avaliable.  Hardly a confirmation.  And they had no communication about the dates beforehand. Hardly qualifies as any sort of "reservation".


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## sm4him (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Hmm. I'm not seeing what you are seeing in the original post. 



AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> ... printing distributor...* "promised" to get my foot  in the door* with a new restaurant that was having it's grand opening in a  few weeks, he knew they needed a photographer and *would pass my info  along to them*.



I don't see where anyone promised an actual job, just that they would pass the photographer's info along to the restaurant. She had no guarantee whatsoever that the restaurant would call and even INQUIRE about her services at this point. I also don't see where she promised to do a shoot for them if they DID call.  This is all just networking, no commitment on anyone's part at this point.



AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> A few weeks pass by and I hear nothing from the guy, *no returned phone  calls, ignored emails*, all that jazz. So I assume he no longer wishes to  work with me and I end up booking a prom for a former client the same  weekend of the grand opening, figuring the restaurant obviously isn't  interested.
> 
> Well as of this morning, I receive an email from the restaurant *asking  me if I am now available for their event*. It's a 2 day (Saturday &  Sunday) grand opening celebration weekend.



Sounds to me like she DID try to get in contact with the POTENTIAL client herself and the lack of a response at all clearly indicated a lack of interest in hiring her, imo.

Then when they did finally email her (MUCH too close to the event, if you ask me), they were still not telling her the job was hers, just inquiring about her availability.

I see absolutely nothing in the OP to suggest there was even a remotely binding commitment at that point, on ANYONE's behalf.


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## tirediron (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ...I cant see how I misread anything. we have a referral, a agreement to do it. And a email expecting them to show up. I doubt the dates for opening day have changed at all that was probably a reminder email for verification.


Okay, to extrapolate your logic; if I send you an e-mail today asking if you're free to shoot my wedding on the 13th of June, I have nothing more to do, and you will show up at my venue ready to work?


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## shefjr (Apr 13, 2014)

sm4him said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



You hit the nail on the head Sharon!


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed.
> 
> apparently you thought he was joking. Business isn't like that.  If you don't do that job now, you are backing out on the guy that said he "would get you in" and depending on how or what this business entails he or they could very well be PISSED.
> 
> The prom queen is the double book. I think YOU misread this entire situation.



https://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/whatisethics.html


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

sm4him said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...


I saw that too and it made me pause. ill admit. But then I though, wth. Maybe he went on vacation or set up the deal and figured it was between these two now. im sure the guy has a business address if the o.p really wanted to find out. I cant speak for print guys where abouts.  just from the o.p.s reported conversation.

Above that it says the print guys does business with a lot of the local businesses in the area. 

People in that position, working with other businesses usually are not full of crap. Their reputation depends on it. And all these people know each other.  i still say ditch the prom queen. i think the o.p dropped the ball somewhere here. serious mis communication. 

I've been this in between print guy before, and if i hung myself out giving someone work and they didn't show or backed out making me look like a azz i would be pissed. i think that is where im coming from with this one. clearly i think different about this.


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2014)

Thankfully there are still photographers in the business that have ethics.  If you are lucky, you might meet some and learn something about being in business from them.


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Thankfully there are still photographers in the business that have ethics. If you are lucky, you might meet some and learn something about being in business from them.



complete opposite. ive done deals not too different than the o.p's  original post with the printer.  Not to often anyone ever asks me for a security deposit.


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## table1349 (Apr 13, 2014)

bribrius said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Thankfully there are still photographers in the business that have ethics. If you are lucky, you might meet some and learn something about being in business from them.
> ...


ecards


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 13, 2014)

I've only been in business for a year and a half and if I believed all the people who told me they would get my foot in the door or send me tons of work I'd be rich by now.  Getting your foot in the door is no where near having a agreed upon price with a specific date and time.  It's just a simple I'll give them your info.


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## bribrius (Apr 13, 2014)

this might have a lot to do with who you are and the circles you travel in, company you keep. "I promise" is usually more than i tell people i usually say "ill take care of it" and have traded thousands on just that.
Different phrasing, means different things amongst different people.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her  cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen.  your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in  the door and you agreed.
> 
> apparently you thought he was joking. Business isn't like that.  If you  don't do that job now, you are backing out on the guy that said he  "would get you in" and depending on how or what this business entails he  or they could very well be PISSED.
> 
> The prom queen is the double book. I think YOU misread this entire situation.



If the prom shoot was scheduled first, then it's not the double  book. If someone tells you that they'll "get you in the door", but  doesn't immediately follow that up with a scheduled gig, then you can't  be expected to just sit around and wait. In this case, a few weeks went by, with no word from anyone. So, the OP scheduled the prom shoot. Should the OP have just scheduled nothing? I don't wait weeks to hear from someone who _might _want to hire me. That would be beyond foolish.

At this point, if the Senior wants to confirm, let her give a deposit. Without a deposit, the date remains open, and the Senior needs to be made aware of that. If she doesn't pay a deposit, she does so at the risk of losing the date...


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

The good news is that this wouldn't be the first time a prom date has been left in tears.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> if the o.p. wanted to verify dates, take a deposit, whatever. The o.p. should have called.





> I cant see how I misread anything.



Um, the OP stated, and pretty clearly, that phone calls and e-mails went unanswered.

Do you do this for a living? If so, you'll know that a person doesn't earn a living with photography by keeping dates open for people who can't reply. How do I know this? Well, because I earn a living with photography and I don't keep dates open for people who don't reply, that's how...


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> this might have a lot to do with who you are and the circles you travel in, company you keep. "I promise" is usually more than i tell people i usually say "ill take care of it" and have traded thousands on just that.
> Different phrasing, means different things amongst different people.



You must be the guy who believes someone when they tell you that, even though they can't pay you, it'll help your business because you can use the shots for your portfolio...


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## pixmedic (Apr 14, 2014)

Well, this is turning into a "chicken or the egg" argument.... My answer is simple. Honor the job you legitimately set up first.  If the restaurant didn't return calls or emails, and in that period of time you booked the prom gig, then the prom girl should be your focus.  Period.  

In the end though,  you have to do what you feel is best.  What is best for you or your business is up to you to decide. Personally,  I will (and have) lost money before breaking my word. Sometimes that really hurts....but not as much as the feeling that my word has no value would.


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

I don't understand how this has lasted this long. You said you were going to do something now do it.

God my 2.5 year old knows this.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> The good news is that this wouldn't be the first time a prom date has been left in tears.



That was funny...


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > ditch the prom queen. pay her limo, give her cash, hire another photographer, whatever. But DITCH the prom queen. your first commitment was already made when he said he would get you in the door and you agreed.
> ...


suppose "get you in the door" and "ill get you the job" are two different things. Like i said, a lot of this is who you are talking to.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> I don't understand how this has lasted this long.



Yeah, two whole days.

On the interwebs.

Freakin' unheard of...


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand how this has lasted this long.
> ...


----------



## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



On what planet are "I'll get you in the door" and "I'll get you the job" even remotely the same thing?

I had someone tell me that they would get me "in the door" to shoot for an online concert magazine. I've written them, trying to find out what's going on, and he hems and haws and is never able to tell me what's going on.

I had a friend tell me that she would "get me the job" of doing security at a bar she manages in St. Augustine. I start tomorrow night.

There's a very, very big difference between the two statements...


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > this might have a lot to do with who you are and the circles you travel in, company you keep. "I promise" is usually more than i tell people i usually say "ill take care of it" and have traded thousands on just that.
> ...


no. i just have worked things similar in way to how the o.p.s. conversation with the printer went. someone told me they need a roof, asked if i knew anyone. i asked them what they had for money, shingle metal what did they have in mind..And told them don't worry about it ill take care of it. couple weeks goes by i pulled a favor. construction company i know told him 2k and a case of beer. no prob. crew showed up and put on the roof on this persons house banged it out in less than a day. person calls me back telling me the roof came out fine. i collected the money passed it on a few days later and moved on. 

suppose the original person could have called me ten times and hired someone to do it. But when i said "don't worry about it ill take care of it" i meant it and they knew i meant it. All in who are are talking to. Not one person in my situations has a misunderstanding, schedule problems or is asking for security deposits. I've had people side houses for me and do 15k dollar jobs with no money down and a simple phrase like "yep, ill do it". Just side work like that I've dabbled in for a comparison but i think you understand where im going with this. 
"hey can you grab me 41 windows while you are down there?" "yeah ill size them out tomorrow " 
"About how much you think itll run?" 
"probably around four k. ill pick them up later this month and we'll catch up"
"okay"
Brokerage house margin all (back when i had more money lol)
"hey bri, we got a call on one of your accounts, your in about fifteen k" 
"umm ****. im dumping xyz and ill cover give me a couple days"
"alright, talk to you then"

another 
"you going to the auction this weekend (cars"
"yeah, i need a few things to throw on the lot"
"looking for something for my nephew, mind keeping your eye out"
"yeah, if i see something ill throw it on, if he don't want it well toss it on the lot"

"thanks, keep it under a couple k"
"yep"

its that simple. All in the circles you travel in.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

no.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> no.


yes. printer is probably one of those types of people. Business people in general usually are. which is why i immediately jumped to the printer and the o.p misunderstanding.   he probably wasn't joking.....
"get in the door" in some circles is "you have the job"


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

Well, the issue here is that the OP doesn't really know the restaurant folks, and "get you in the door" means very little. It's akin to "I can't pay you, but they'll look great in your portfolio". Neither one advances a business, and one shouldn't rely on either.

In this case, the OP had no reason to believe that anything with the restaurant would come to fruition. She e-mailed and she called, and for her efforts she got zero response. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time a potential client decided to go with someone else. So, when another client came along, she took that job; the job for which she could actually speak to someone.

Waiting for a client to reply is a bad move. It's bad business. Sure, every once in a while it might pan out, but far more often than not it'll bite you in the ass and, instead of shooting a gig, you're sitting on the couch _wishing _you were shooting a gig...


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> "get in the door" in some circles is "you have the job"



I'm gonna' guess that'll end up being the dumbest thing posted to the internet today.

The OP did everything reasonable here. The restaurant took their sweet time contacting her, despite her repeated attempts to contact them, and the result is that she took another booking. It was the smart move.

I still think shooting both could be arranged, and I would try working towards that end...


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Well, the issue here is that the OP doesn't really know the restaurant folks, and "get you in the door" means very little. It's akin to "I can't pay you, but they'll look great in your portfolio". Neither one advances a business, and one shouldn't rely on either.
> 
> In this case, the OP had no reason to believe that anything with the restaurant would come to fruition. She e-mailed and she called, and for her efforts she got zero response. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time a potential client decided to go with someone else. So, when another client came along, she took that job; the job for which she could actually speak to someone.
> 
> Waiting for a client to reply is a bad move. It's bad business. Sure, every once in a while it might pan out, but far more often than not it'll bite you in the ass and, instead of shooting a gig, you're sitting on the couch _wishing _you were shooting a gig...


im just sayn, i think the o.p. misread the printer. which im not surprised. i can see how this would happen just by reading the responses on this thread. And if it is the first time the o.p had dealt with the printer or these people they have nothing in the past history to understand exactly what something means. The only thing i can correlate this too, is actually a insurance claim on a deck for fivek for someone. People asked me about it. i said i could "probably do that".  i showed up and sent someone to start knocking down the old deck. They looked a little shocked the person was there with me because apparently they didn't comprehend we were doing it by my wording. Or maybe they didn't believe it. no idea. so out there with sledgehammers and saws, they walked out and were kind of shocked watching the old deck coming down.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> im just sayn, i think the o.p. misread the printer. which im not surprised. i can see how this would happen just by reading the responses on this thread. And if it is the first time the o.p had dealt with the printer or these people they have nothing in the past history to understand exactly what something means.



Assumption is the mother of disaster.

Words mean things. They mean what they mean. If someone tells me they'll "get me in the door", what that tells me is that I'll either be put in contact with the right people, or my information will be passed on to the right people. What it tells me is that, once in contact with the right people, it's up to me to get the job. Period. I don't know a single person who would consider "I'll get you in the door" as "I'll get you that job"...



> The only thing i can correlate this too, is actually a insurance claim on a deck for fivek for someone. People asked me about it. i said i could "probably do that".  i showed up and sent someone to start knocking down the old deck. They looked a little shocked the person was there with me because apparently they didn't comprehend we were doing it by my wording. Or maybe they didn't believe it. no idea. so out there with sledgehammers and saws, they walked out and were kind of shocked watching the old deck coming down.



You're lucky you weren't sued.

What would you have done if you'd shown up, and another crew was already there? You had no binding contract, yet you set that day aside to do that work. Now you've got a crew to pay with no money coming in that day.

Doing business is such a fashion isn't just stupid, it's dangerous...


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> *Well, the issue here is that the OP doesn't really know the restaurant folks, *and "get you in the door" means very little*.* It's akin to "I can't pay you, but they'll look great in your portfolio". Neither one advances a business, and one shouldn't rely on either.
> 
> In this case, the OP had no reason to believe that anything with the restaurant would come to fruition. She e-mailed and she called, and for her efforts she got zero response. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time a potential client decided to go with someone else. So, when another client came along, she took that job; the job for which she could actually speak to someone.
> 
> Waiting for a client to reply is a bad move. It's bad business. Sure, every once in a while it might pan out, but far more often than not it'll bite you in the ass and, instead of shooting a gig, you're sitting on the couch _wishing _you were shooting a gig...


this. And doesn't know the printer. And it may have caused a serious miscommunication issue.
Hey, i gave my two cents. That is what i gather from the situation. Hard telln not knowing. i don't know the people either or the o.p and wasn't there. Just how i read this situation.
No doubt, i could very well be totally wrong just how i see it. I do think the o.p should have followed up if need be going to the printing establishment or contacting the restaurant directly before scheduling another venue. vague phone messages from unknowns and emails often go unchecked.

As another poster suggested too, maybe they were just using the o.p. for a "backup" really no way to know, depends on how much you can count on the unknown printer and what pull he has or what the intentions were there. Fun thread!!!!!


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

Ok everyone, put down your battle swords! I haven't checked in on this post in awhile since I got about all the advice I needed within the first 5 responses. I do have extremely good news about this whole predicament though! (in case anyone wanted an update) 

I called the restaurant after getting their email and told them that I had reached out to their printing guy a few times in the last week and either through my own error or his, I hadn't heard anything back about the event having interest in my services and assumed the restaurant had gone with someone else. I then booked a former client for the same weekend since I had thought I had an open schedule. The woman from the restaurant was very confused and had assumed I was already "hired" weeks ago and she was following up to get the bill from me and talk about the time frame details. So what happened is the PRINTING GUY dropped the ball. The restaurant had agreed to use me weeks ago and when I reached out to him numerous times (I even went as far as asking the guy for the restaurant's contact info so I can speak with them personally) he ignored me and in turn told the restaurant I happily agreed, the restaurant assumed the printing guy would be getting a quote from me and setting up the booking process. I told the woman it is ultimately in the hands of my prom client now and that if I am able to reschedule it, I will be able to shoot the event. I sent my price quote, she agreed to the proposed amount and said she will be waiting patiently to hear back.

I then called the prom client (who is actually the mother that booked me, not the teenager) and laid it all out on the table. Explaining that my obligations are to her and that this scheduling disaster is completely my fault. She has booked me many times over the past year for her family pics, holidays, ect. Before I could even offer her a free shoot and start my rounds of apologies she congratulated me on the job in Chicago and said that I need to take the other job. She said she knows how hard I have worked to get my business name out in Chicago and would tell her daughter the situation. She said we always have next year (since this is her daughter's junior prom, not senior) and I offered her a free 2 hour session (twice as much time as the original prom shoot) and she can use the time however she would like with as many family members as she would like the next time I would be in the area. She then thanked me and told me to "knock em' dead."

The restaurant has now sent over the contracts and put down the event payment. All is good and the Photographic Gods must have been in on this one because no one was offended and my honor is still in tact. Whoooo!


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## paigew (Apr 14, 2014)

Yes!! Awesome news. Pays to communicate. &#128512;


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

well i guess i pegged the printer guy right. eat your heart out people im the only one that came close to pegging this situation....... :lmao:


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> well i guess i pegged the printer guy right. eat your heart out people im the only one that came close to pegging this situation....... :lmao:



You may have been right about pegging him for seriously booking me the job, but you also blamed ME for not working my end. Yes, the printing guy got me the job, but he DIDN'T EVEN TELL ME I WAS BOOKED and he IGNORED my attempts to call and email him to get all the specs on the situation. Resulting in this horribly confusing predicament.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > "get in the door" in some circles is "you have the job"
> ...



Umm.. hmm.  I dunno so much about that.  I mean your looking at some really, really stiff competition here.  



> The OP did everything reasonable here. The restaurant took their sweet time contacting her, despite her repeated attempts to contact them, and the result is that she took another booking. It was the smart move.
> 
> I still think shooting both could be arranged, and I would try working towards that end...



I guess my thoughts on this are twofold, when you make a commitment you keep it.  So the prom pictures should take priority regardless, if they can arrange to get the resteraunt gig taken care of as well great but if not then the prom pictures should be the ones to focus on.  My second thought is, just how much help do they really think this resteraunt gig is going to be to their photography business?  I mean other than being able to use it for bragging rights it's not like the resteraunt will generate much in the way of word of mouth advertising for them.  Why would they? 

I mean lets assume for just a second that these pictures are just so unbelievably amazing that every resteraunt in town suddenly starts clamoring for the OP to come to their resteraunt and shoot for them too, so they call this place and what, this resteraunt is going to say "Sure, since you are our competition let me help you out and give you the name of our photographer so that you can get promo pictures as good if not better than ours, because that really makes sense for us to do that."

I mean granted I don't shoot pictures for a living, but I have run a couple of small businesses in my day, and I one thing I did notice is that I rarely if ever got referals from a business.  I got plenty from individuals, but the only time I ever got a referral from a business it was on an individual basis - IE the owner's brother or close friend needed some work done and they would refer them to me.  Never once did I ever have one business referred to me by another.  It just never happened, and frankly the number of referals I got from the businesses I did deal with were very few and far between, once in a blue moon sort of things really.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

paigew said:


> Yes!! Awesome news. Pays to communicate. &#62976;
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm still in shock over how easy it all was when I talked to her. I am so thankful for loyal clients like her. Not many would have been understanding, let alone root for me to do the other job!


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> well i guess i pegged the printer guy right. eat your heart out people im the only one that came close to pegging this situation....... :lmao:



what does that actually say about you?


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > well i guess i pegged the printer guy right. eat your heart out people im the only one that came close to pegging this situation....... :lmao:
> ...


Years of business relations experience. im happy for the o.p. This is excellent.


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## table1349 (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


Gee that's the same line all of Al Capone's Loan Sharks used.   Face it, with the buisiness ethics you dislplayed I wouldn't hire you to photograph a dead dog.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

> I mean lets assume for just a second that these pictures are just so unbelievably amazing that every resteraunt in town suddenly starts clamoring for the OP to come to their resteraunt and shoot for them too, so they call this place and what, this resteraunt is going to say "Sure, since you are our competition let me help you out and give you the name of our photographer so that you can get promo pictures as good if not better than ours, because that really makes sense for us to do that."



This is completely true, the reason I believe this could potentially get my more clientele is because almost all of the restaurant owners have friends that also own their own businesses and they all come from large Italian families, so I may be able to get more business from them for family portraits or their great-niece's wedding kind of thing. 
Either way, I'll see if it pans out. I doubt I'll be getting more business from the printing guy though because even if he "promises" me another job, I WILL NOT put myself in this situation with him again.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



Careful. He might come to your house unexpectedly, kill your dog, and proceed to take photos of it.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > I mean lets assume for just a second that these pictures are just so unbelievably amazing that every resteraunt in town suddenly starts clamoring for the OP to come to their resteraunt and shoot for them too, so they call this place and what, this resteraunt is going to say "Sure, since you are our competition let me help you out and give you the name of our photographer so that you can get promo pictures as good if not better than ours, because that really makes sense for us to do that."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol.. I hear you.  Glad it all worked out for you, and really if you ever run out of opportunities in Chicago and want to get a photography business started in a hurry try moving to Omaha.  It sure would be nice to have somebody I could refer people to who are looking for a professional photographer .. lol.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Would that be before or after he demolishes your porch with a sledgehammer?  Lol


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## nycphotography (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



And even then, "I'll get you the job" is _*far*_ short of "here's the job offer, do you accept it?"

Until the moment I have a concrete offer that I accept, or until I agree to something specific in some context, everything is hypothetical.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > gryphonslair99 said:
> ...




during.  kill two things with one sledgehammer.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > I mean lets assume for just a second that these pictures are just so unbelievably amazing that every resteraunt in town suddenly starts clamoring for the OP to come to their resteraunt and shoot for them too, so they call this place and what, this resteraunt is going to say "Sure, since you are our competition let me help you out and give you the name of our photographer so that you can get promo pictures as good if not better than ours, because that really makes sense for us to do that."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Italian families ? printer guy? you just have to learn to understand the lingo and how these people think. Every "click" goes about things differently.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > > I mean lets assume for just a second that these pictures are just so unbelievably amazing that every resteraunt in town suddenly starts clamoring for the OP to come to their resteraunt and shoot for them too, so they call this place and what, this resteraunt is going to say "Sure, since you are our competition let me help you out and give you the name of our photographer so that you can get promo pictures as good if not better than ours, because that really makes sense for us to do that."
> ...



As tempting as that offer is, I doubt my fiance would like to quit his job, pick up and move to Omaha lmao but if I ever decide to take a trip there I'll be sure to stalk you at the zoo you frequent :mrgreen:


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> ...



Or just shoot me an email and we'll get together, I can take you and the fiance out to dinner.


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## ecphoto (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> So I'm in a bit of a pickle. I'll try to make a long story short, but could really use some advice from some members.
> 
> A few weeks back I got in contact with a printing distributor who works with many of the small businesses in my area, which is awesome because he could potentially hook me up with many of the businesses he advertises and prints for. He does menu printing for restaurants, store sign decals and even big stuff like full car advertisement wraps for delivery services. Well after meeting him he "promised" to get my foot in the door with a new restaurant that was having it's grand opening in a few weeks, he knew they needed a photographer and would pass my info along to them.
> 
> ...



I know the carrot is dangling there and its tempting. However, as photographers we have to be ethical and trustworthy. It may mean making less money, but your reputation as a flake will stick with you. No one will hire a photographer if they don't trust them. Just my 2¢.


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## nycphotography (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Ok everyone, put down your battle swords! I haven't checked in on this post in awhile since I got about all the advice I needed within the first 5 responses. I do have extremely good news about this whole predicament though! (in case anyone wanted an update)
> 
> I called the restaurant after getting their email and told them that I had reached out to their printing guy a few times in the last week and either through my own error or his, I hadn't heard anything back about the event having interest in my services and assumed the restaurant had gone with someone else. I then booked a former client for the same weekend since I had thought I had an open schedule. The woman from the restaurant was very confused and had assumed I was already "hired" weeks ago and she was following up to get the bill from me and talk about the time frame details. So what happened is the PRINTING GUY dropped the ball. The restaurant had agreed to use me weeks ago and when I reached out to him numerous times (I even went as far as asking the guy for the restaurant's contact info so I can speak with them personally) he ignored me and in turn told the restaurant I happily agreed, the restaurant assumed the printing guy would be getting a quote from me and setting up the booking process. I told the woman it is ultimately in the hands of my prom client now and that if I am able to reschedule it, I will be able to shoot the event. I sent my price quote, she agreed to the proposed amount and said she will be waiting patiently to hear back.
> 
> ...



The only problem I see here is that while the printer guy did drop the ball, you pretty much left him swinging in the wind for it!

 Wouldnt be a problem if were secondary to your business, but since we is the hookup you are looking to develop, if you don't protect him, you risk that he may lose interest in working with you.

HOPEFULLY, since the scheduling got worked out, he won't pick up on that nuance, but if it fell through, I can bet you wouldn't get another chance and not because it fell though but because you had left him swinging.  Yes it's his own fault.  But smart in business sometimes means working around other people's failures.

And depending in what gets said between him and the client, it still might go sour down the road.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

nycphotography said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > Ok everyone, put down your battle swords! I haven't checked in on this post in awhile since I got about all the advice I needed within the first 5 responses. I do have extremely good news about this whole predicament though! (in case anyone wanted an update)
> ...


yep. Cant tell on a computer screen. But printer guy may not just be printer guy. He could be the "go to" guy.  Go to guys can pull a lot of strings in your favor or shut you down..  They know everyone. Always try to figure out who is who before you leap when you get involved with unknown clicks. That is what is hard about these things. A newcomer doesn't see the behind the scenes relationships or understand how things work.. 
just throwing this out there. You can run your business however you want, but if you want to cater to certain clicks you need to adapt your thinking to their ways and understand them  to make it work.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> well i guess i pegged the printer guy right. eat your heart out people im the only one that came close to pegging this situation....... :lmao:



Nonsense.

You were putting the onus on the OP, and that's not where it belonged. The printer never got her the job, because he never told her she had the job. At best, the guy's a hack, and shouldn't be operating as a middle man for anyone. he doesn't follow through. He's unprofessional.

This worked out the way it did because of the perseverance of the OP, and not because of anything the printer did...


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

> The only problem I see here is that while the printer guy did drop the ball, you pretty much left him swinging in the wind for it!
> 
> Wouldnt be a problem if were secondary to your business, but since we is the hookup you are looking to develop, if you don't protect him, you risk that he may lose interest in working with you.
> 
> ...



In my "happy update" I paraphrased the whole convo with the restaurant to save room in the post but yes, I may have "left him swinging" but I explained the printing guy and I lost touch and though I didn't directly blame him for it, I said either by error on my end, his end, or both. But to be honest, if this is how he usually operates when setting up gigs for people, I have little interest with working with him again unless he can communicate with me in a timely fashion. I'll lose more business waiting for his "promises" especially if the future gigs don't come through. 

And if I lose my hook-up with the printing guy, here's on the plus side: My prom client was not upset, I no longer have to drive 3 hours with my inconsolable 2 year old (because if I don't bring my son along with me to my hometown I will face the wrath of my mother not seeing her grandbaby), this restaurant may want to use me in the future for other things, and the pay will be significantly higher.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > The only problem I see here is that while the printer guy did drop the ball, you pretty much left him swinging in the wind for it!
> >
> > Wouldnt be a problem if were secondary to your business, but since we is the hookup you are looking to develop, if you don't protect him, you risk that he may lose interest in working with you.
> >
> ...


o.p. 
im not sure what is going on there. But you may not be able to circumvent anyone that easily. i used to sell wholesale building materials to construction companies. ive dealt with Cambodians, southies in boston, Chinese, and italians etc. etc.
when dealing with some groups of people, they have a "way" they go about things. whether or not you play along and don't step on toes is directly equivalent to how much business you get. And the first step, is* understand who you are talking to and how they fit in with the rest of the crowd*. And there is always a "behind the scenes" that you wont know about. But you will get the general idea of how it is going by how much work comes your way. Because these people have serious history together and a certain way of going about things. Maybe this isn't like that, or on that level. But with your business thriving being your priority i would watch carefully what is going on and be careful where you step. For some of these groups relationships are key. Before circumventing printer guy i would find out just how printer guy is involved with everyone else. You may want to go talk to him and have a chat. Or maybe this isn't on that level. But the fact he got you a job no questions asked says a lot.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> But printer guy may not just be printer guy. He could be the "go to" guy.  Go to guys can pull a lot of strings in your favor or shut you down..  They know everyone. Always try to figure out who is who before you leap when you get involved with unknown clicks. That is what is hard about these things. A newcomer doesn't see the behind the scenes relationships or understand how things work..
> just throwing this out there. You can run your business however you want, but if you want to cater to certain clicks you need to adapt your thinking to their ways and understand them  to make it work.



Are you serious?

In this case, the guy you say could be the "go to guy" proved that he's not the "go to guy". He dropped the ball. Badly. Someone who's the "go to guy" gets to be the "go to guy" because he gets things done.

He's a hack, and little more...


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> In my "happy update" I paraphrased the whole convo with the restaurant to save room in the post but yes, I may have "left him swinging" but I explained the printing guy and I lost touch and though I didn't directly blame him for it, I said either by error on my end, his end, or both. But to be honest, if this is how he usually operates when setting up gigs for people,* I have little interest with working with him again unless he can communicate with me in a timely fashion*. I'll lose more business waiting for his "promises" especially if the future gigs don't come through.



Right now, there's not a single reason in the world for you to work with him again. You tried it once, and he failed you. That's _his _fault. If you try working with him again and he fails you, then it'll be _your _fault.

And there's just no need to go there...


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> The only thing i can correlate this too, is actually a insurance claim on a deck for fivek for someone. People asked me about it. i said i could "probably do that".  i showed up and sent someone to start knocking down the old deck. They looked a little shocked the person was there with me because apparently they didn't comprehend we were doing it by my wording. Or maybe they didn't believe it. no idea. so out there with sledgehammers and saws, they walked out and were kind of shocked watching the old deck coming down.



I would ask again, since you dodged it the first time: What would you have done if you and your crew had shown up, and another crew was already on site getting the job done? You had no contract or agreement. You simply said "I could probably do that", which means nothing.

What would you have done?


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > But printer guy may not just be printer guy. He could be the "go to" guy. Go to guys can pull a lot of strings in your favor or shut you down.. They know everyone. Always try to figure out who is who before you leap when you get involved with unknown clicks. That is what is hard about these things. A newcomer doesn't see the behind the scenes relationships or understand how things work..
> ...


he could very well be. That wouldn't surprise me either something sure went wrong here. Me personally, i wouldn't make the judgment online it could be bad advice for the o.p.

 why i suggested o.p. do a little more research first and err on the side of caution. Figure out who is who and how they are tied.  People know each other. sometimes you knock down the wrong  domino they all come tumbling down.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> sometimes you knock down the wrong  domino they all come tumbling down.



like a deck?


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing i can correlate this too, is actually a insurance claim on a deck for fivek for someone. People asked me about it. i said i could "probably do that". i showed up and sent someone to start knocking down the old deck. They looked a little shocked the person was there with me because apparently they didn't comprehend we were doing it by my wording. Or maybe they didn't believe it. no idea. so out there with sledgehammers and saws, they walked out and were kind of shocked watching the old deck coming down.
> ...


left. i wasn't really that concerned about it. 
clearly i wasn't specific enough there, and i didn't remember who i was talking to. ill admit that. They weren't upset. just shocked. i dropped the ball there and forgot who i was talking to.
"you doing this now?"
i kind of looked around at the deck being taken apart. i was just watching the start of it.
"yeah".
i realized it right then i wasn't specific enough.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



How many times do you let someone screw you over before you stop trying to work with them?

Me? One time, and I don't think I'm in too small a club...


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...




You're right something DID go wrong here. That being, this guy told a restaurant a professional photographer would be working their event and neglected to tell the photographer they would be working it!!

and I'm sorry but if this guy is "Big Sh**" like you seem to assume based on this thread, then he would've handled it in a timely, professional manner. Big Deal, "go-to" guys don't leave people hanging to dry. What if this had gone the other way? What if I stuck my ground and refused the restaurant? He would've not only screwed my reputation in this area, but screwed the restaurant into trying to find a last minute professional 2 weeks out from the event! It would've cost the restaurant more time and money.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...


totally agree. just careful of the dominoes.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



That's not what I asked.

If you showed up and another crew was already doing the work, how would you have reacted?


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> and I'm sorry but if this guy is "Big Sh**" like you seem to assume based on this thread, then he would've handled it in a timely, professional manner. Big Deal, "go-to" guys don't leave people hanging to dry. What if this had gone the other way? What if I stuck my ground and refused the restaurant? He would've not only screwed my reputation in this area, but screwed the restaurant into trying to find a last minute professional 2 weeks out from the event! It would've cost the restaurant more time and money.



Here's what I'm wondering:

It seems as though the ball started rolling as soon as you contacted the restaurant. I would ask them if they sent a contract to the printer guy, believing that he was working for you as an intermediary. You said that the restaurant thought everything was taken care of. If that's true, and considering they sent you a contract as soon as you contacted them, I wonder if they sent him the contract, thinking that would seal the deal, and he simply blew it off.

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what happened...


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...


i wouldn't have been bothered. Its only a couple hours to rip down a deck that size. And there is still a wait time for the insurance check so no rush.
now, if i already had materials purchased and on site, the new deck half done , had a subcontractor on it and already paid them half up front. And the check was being cut to someone else THAT would have caused a problem. But obviously before it got to that point the homeowner would have told me someone else is doing it.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > and I'm sorry but if this guy is "Big Sh**" like you seem to assume based on this thread, then he would've handled it in a timely, professional manner. Big Deal, "go-to" guys don't leave people hanging to dry. What if this had gone the other way? What if I stuck my ground and refused the restaurant? He would've not only screwed my reputation in this area, but screwed the restaurant into trying to find a last minute professional 2 weeks out from the event! It would've cost the restaurant more time and money.
> ...


this is something to consider. o.p. needs to do some research.


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Just like how the printer told the OP that... wait... nevermind...


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



Ok, so easy solution here all the way around, she just needs to grab a couple of sledgehammers, head over to the printers house and demolish his back deck.   Bam!  Everybody happy, win win, synergy dance.  You guys start singing Kumbayah and I'll hit the quickie mart for smore's fixins.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
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yeah. okay.  i concede. you win. its the printers fault.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> If you showed up and another crew was already doing the work, how would you have reacted?





> i wouldn't have been bothered. Its only a couple hours to rip down a deck that size. And there is still a wait time for the insurance check so no rush.
> now, if i already had materials purchased and on site, the new deck half done , had a subcontractor on it and already paid them half up front. And the check was being cut to someone else THAT would have caused a problem. But obviously before it got to that point the homeowner would have told me someone else is doing it.




I had four contractors come out to my house to get an estimate to rip out my deck and install a new one;  I'm kinda upset you weren't one of them.  My deck would have been ripped out for free without a contract, and then I could sue you for damages to private property, even though I wanted it gone in the first place, and all the money I made from you in civil court could go to the contractor I actually hired and signed a contract with!


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> I had four contractors come out to my house to get an estimate to rip out my deck and install a new one;  I'm kinda upset you weren't one of them.  My deck would have been ripped out for free without a contract, and then I could sue you for damages to private property, even though I wanted it gone in the first place, and all the money I made from you in civil court could go to the contractor I actually hired and signed a contract with!



I am kinda upset you didn't do it yourself, at least tear down the old one.

tsk tsk tsk


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > If you showed up and another crew was already doing the work, how would you have reacted?
> ...


this isn't the first time i've seen you write something like this. you seem like one of those very sue happy people trying to get something for free. some people are like that, they just want to use others and get something for free. Its a weasel type mentality. And some day you are going to run into the wrong person, pull this kind of thing for real, and they will take everything you have. just to teach you a lesson. i've yet to have anyone sue me and win. no why? im not out to screw anybody else.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

uh, don't come on my property and destroy my **** and not expect a tort claim.

No one is going to sue me for being awesome.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> I am kinda upset you didn't do it yourself, at least tear down the old one.
> 
> tsk tsk tsk



I got margaritas to drink.


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> uh, don't come on my property and destroy my **** and not expect a tort claim.
> 
> No one is going to sue me for being awesome.


for what loss. a deck already being claimed on insurance as a loss? good luck pal.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 14, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...





Braineack said:


> uh, don't come on my property and destroy my **** and not expect a tort claim.
> 
> No one is going to sue me for being awesome.



Well so much for the Kumbayah/Smores plan.  Ah well.  Looked so promising on paper too.  Sigh.


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > I am kinda upset you didn't do it yourself, at least tear down the old one.
> ...


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## Steve5D (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> No one is going to sue me for being awesome.



No, but they will hate you for it.

Trust me on this...


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## table1349 (Apr 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > I had four contractors come out to my house to get an estimate to rip out my deck and install a new one;  I'm kinda upset you weren't one of them.  My deck would have been ripped out for free without a contract, and then I could sue you for damages to private property, even though I wanted it gone in the first place, and all the money I made from you in civil court could go to the contractor I actually hired and signed a contract with!
> ...


Oh I can understand why he didn't.   You see in N. Virgina the do demolition same way the fish.  One stick of dynamite or two?


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## bribrius (Apr 14, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > No one is going to sue me for being awesome.
> ...


i know i thought about running to the store for marshmallows, but im totally not going now.


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## Braineack (Apr 14, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...




you need a permit to breathe in N. Va anymore--Blue state.


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## runnah (Apr 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> you need a permit to breathe in N. Va anymore--Blue state.



Do you have neighbors?

If not screw it.


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