# Trespassing for a photograph



## spacefuzz (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm just curious, has anyone here ever been charged with trespassing for taking a photograph? Especially after the fact.

Particularly interested in national parks......hypothetically speaking.


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## wyogirl (Jan 14, 2014)

No, but that's because when I lived in Ohio and Kentucky, I did not trespass.  People shoot your for that kind of thing.  And now that I live in Wyoming, still don't trespass because 90% of this state is public land.

Its one of the things that I take seriously.  There aren't many locations that I have come across where I couldn't just get permission to shoot.  You especially want to get permission if you have paying clients, nothing is more embarrassing that being kicked out of somewhere because you weren't prepared.


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## SnappingShark (Jan 14, 2014)

No.

I was on government property (coastguard) the other week getting a photograph of a bridge, and had an official run up to me, ask what I was doing and then just stand by and ensure I was doing exactly that.

But charged, no.


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## 480sparky (Jan 14, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> .......  And now that I live in Wyoming, still don't trespass because 90% of this state is public land........



How does one trespass on public land?


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## spacefuzz (Jan 14, 2014)

480sparky said:


> wyogirl said:
> 
> 
> > ....... And now that I live in Wyoming, still don't trespass because 90% of this state is public land........
> ...



It's usually leased out to ranchers....so I believe it would technically still be trespassing despite being owned by BLM.  At least thats how it was in Montana


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## ronlane (Jan 14, 2014)

Have I trespassed to get a shot, mmmm yeah. Have I been called on it by someone?  No. There are fences everywhere here in Oklahoma. I generally won't cross one unless it's down. (That is, unless I have asked and received permission to do so.) Now, I will go down a road that is on the land and shoot from there or step off the edge of the road but not cross the fence.


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## wyogirl (Jan 14, 2014)

480sparky said:


> wyogirl said:
> 
> 
> > .......  And now that I live in Wyoming, still don't trespass because 90% of this state is public land........
> ...


You don't that's why I don't have to trespass.... there is very little private land that I would need access to.
I'm not sure about land leases because we are an open range state.... maybe I have been trespassing and didn't know. ?? Oh well.


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## skieur (Jan 14, 2014)

spacefuzz said:


> I'm just curious, has anyone here ever been charged with trespassing for taking a photograph? Especially after the fact.



No, and I have even shot in hospitals, in shopping malls, community centres, skating arenas and on school property. The general procedure is for a security guard to approach and indicate that taking photos is not allowed. If you put away your camera, you are allowed to continue on your way. If you react "negatively" by comment or attitude they will escort you off the property. I have NOT however been even confronted by anyone.

By the way the photographer retains ownership and copyright of photos even taken while trespassing.


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## Rick58 (Jan 14, 2014)

Nope. Unless I can get permission NO TRESPASSING means just that. 
My desire for a photo never Supersedes the wishes of the property owner.


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## Tailgunner (Jan 14, 2014)

This is Texas where everyone is issued a gun at birth. So I tread lightly when it comes to trespassing. This doesn't mean that I want, property that is obviously ignored is fare game but I'll ask for permission for property that is being watched closely.


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## Steve5D (Jan 14, 2014)

I've certainly never been charged.

I have, however, taken photos on property which wasn't necessarily "posted" but which, in all likelihood, was privately owned.

If property is clearly marked, though, I won't do it. Aside from the fact that it's wrong being enough for me, I also wouldn't have a leg to stand on if and when charged for trespassing...


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## sm4him (Jan 14, 2014)

Nope, never been charged with trespassing. I *did* trespass once, but to be fair, I didn't really realize I had trespassed until after the fact, and I have refrained from doing it again. It was at my little spot just down the road from me where there's an eagle's nest.  The first time I saw the eagles there, I went traipsing up the hill thinking I might get a better shot from the top. Well, first, I accidentally stumbled across where their nest was (I didn't even realize the nest was in the area at this time). I moved away from that area and eventually ended up on top of the hill. That's when I realized that it was private property and there WAS a fence. It had just been down at the point where I'd happened to decide to cross and I didn't even notice it. When I went back down the hill, I saw that a tree had fallen and taken out a fairly large section of the fence.
The problem is that the whole area is fenced off and I have YET to be able to get in touch with the owners and see if they'll let me go up there again. But in the meantime, I haven't gone up there since I realized it was private property.

If it were MY land, and I posted "No Trespassing" I'd want people to STAY. OFF. And so I try to reciprocate.

I also echo the statements by those who live in Texas, Kentucky and other areas. In Tennessee, ESPECIALLY in the hills of East TN, your best bet is to just ASSUME everyone has a gun.  Not only would I not trespass on some property around here for fear of being shot at before being questioned, there have been times when I have NOT been trespassing and I was afraid I was going to get shot for being there.


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## SCraig (Jan 14, 2014)

Rick58 said:


> Nope. Unless I can get permission NO TRESPASSING means just that.
> My desire for a photo never Supersedes the wishes of the property owner.



This.  100%.  Never have, never will.

I ran a survey crew for 12 years.  I learned quickly how some people react when they see strangers traipsing around on their property.  Any time I had to get on neighboring property I tried to let them know who we were and what we were doing.


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## jeroen (Jan 14, 2014)

We climbed over the fence of the near by racing track as kids because we couldn't afford a ticket. But not when there was a serious race like F1, mean looking guards with even meaner looking dogs... 
I can even remember running across the track to get behind the paddocks on Ferrari day. Insanely stupid and dangerous, never been caught though and I made some very nice photos that day


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## spacefuzz (Jan 14, 2014)

Seems like TPF has a bunch of law abiding citizens on it.


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## rlemert (Jan 14, 2014)

spacefuzz said:


> Seems like TPF has a bunch of law abiding citizens on it.



Yeah. Boring, isn't it.


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## KmH (Jan 14, 2014)

FWIW - Is a Permit Required for Photography on Public Lands? | Photo Attorney


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## wyogirl (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't even need a permit to photograph on the courthouse lawn.  When I went inside to inquire about that, the Sheriff laughed and said "its Wyoming, we don't believe in that kind of thing here."  Almost every bride in the county has been photographed there... its one of the only places with grass and trees.


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## crimbfighter (Jan 14, 2014)

I've never arrested/charged/cited any photog for being where they were, taking photos. Nor do I know anyone who has. That doesn't mean it CAN'T happen. If you're on private proerty, and the owner of that property wants to pursue a complaint, and you were properly notified (either verbally or by signage) then you could be arrested/cited for it. In my municipality, for example, we have a form that a property owner can file with us, which states if anyone is found on their property, they will pursue charges and want them cited. That way we can enforce trespass even when the owner may not be there. Businesses are a good example of that. So, if you happened onto a property like that, you would be cited, regardless of the reason you were there, because the expectation is you are cited, because that's what the property owner wants.

Also keep in mind the statutory requirement for trespass may vary from state to state, or municipality to municipality. In Wisconsin, for example, it is not a crime to trespass unless it's to a dwelling or a medical facility. Trespass solely on someones land is only a ticket. 

And it's also very much illegal in Wisconsin, and I'm assuming most states, to shoot someone solely on the basis they have trespassed on anothers land. There might be a couple states left who think it's ok to use deadly force to protect property, but most states are in the 21st century on that topic. 

All in all, even though you probably would never be cited/arrested for it, you may still be confronted about it. Best, in my opinion and practice, is to do the appropriate, ethical, and safest thing, and get permission first. Or if you've inadvertently found yourself on private property, leave and go get your permission slip..


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## HurleyPhoto (Jan 15, 2014)

The timing of this is funny. Our land is posted with "No Trespassing and/or Hunting" signs. My wife and I came home last night and noticed a car parked just down from our driveway. A few minutes later she(my wife) came in from out back and said ..."I think I heard voices coming from the woods". Referring to an area on our property. So for protection, I went and got a hand gun and went out side. The car was moved over to the other side of the road in front of a neighbors house but empty. So I walked just a short ways down a dirt road on our land and stopped. I see something white moving in the clearing. It, and I can now make out it is a person, starts is getting closer and then stops about 30 feet away. I guess they just noticed me standing there and on top of that holding a gun. I now hear this female start whimpering and she takes off running across the dirt road and thru some hedges, then across the road towards her car. I asked "what are you doing?". She starts screaming and keeps running towards her car as I stepped out onto the street. Cranks her car with me standing at her window then brushes me with it as she leaves. We reported it to the sheriff's department just in case she comes back and tries to say I did something. We all walked to the area I first saw her and saw nothing. I gave them the tag number and them getting the name and address back, either knew the person it was registered to or someone at that address. Guessing they've been there before. So I come to the conclusion today that she probably went into the woods to "pee" while waiting for the neighbor to get home. 

 Anyway wrote this because people do carry guns. We have had to call the police a couple of times for people hunting on our land and once for some teens; even after telling them a couple days before to stop; shooting their shotguns around our pond. Was told then by the sheriff's department that trespassing with a weapon was a felony in Tennessee. They gave the kids a warning and it stopped.

 But to answer the question, yes I have years ago when I was young and dumb. Things were a lot different then and so much has changed. I once snuck into the Memphis International Airport to take time lapsed shots of planes landing at night. You know the drill. Open the shutter when they are a bit in the distance the fire a hand held flash as they are almost overhead. But wouldn't/couldn't do that today. First I'm too old but now after the 911 attacks. Then there were a few times I was stopped and questioned. Once I was taking pictures of this outdoor stairway at a factory. Then when I took a few shots of a hospital. Security stopped me at first and asked what I was doing. It was my wife's first and only surgery so I was doing a "scrapbook" project for her. Don't think she minded waking from anesthesia with a camera pointing at her. Also have been stopped a few times by police. But as someone has mentioned, they cant stop you from shooting. There are a few exceptions but cant erase or keep film/images.


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## bratkinson (Jan 15, 2014)

Trespassing, regardless of location, is violating the law. 

Granted, perhaps 99% of the people knowingly trespassing are quite harmless...such as taking a picture.  But these days, one never knows what the intents of someone trespassing may be.  Whether the property owner presses charges against a trespasser is up to the property owner.  Just don't try trespassing in a bank after they're closed.  

On the other side of the coin is trespassing that may result in injury or death.  As a railroad employee, I see and hear of too many cases of trespassers...in one case, a sleeping container-train 'joyrider'/hobo that came within 3 seconds of being crushed by a loaded container being placed in a well car.  The cops took him away.  There's too many miles of railroads to post 'no trespassing' signs every 50 feet or so.  As a result, way too many people get killed while walking down the track...or chasing their dog just last week in Los Angeles.  

In short, trespass at your own risk.  Note that some landowners may open fire without warning.


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## deeky (Jan 15, 2014)

Charged?  No.  Chased off by security?  3 times (twice at one spot may have been pushing it).  

I've found posted property that I wanted to shoot.  It's amazing how much "trespassing" you can get away with when you contact the owner, explain what your are interested in, and respectfully ask permission. Deliver them a print of something that they have identified as particularly important to them and they will often help you get wherever you want, their property or someone else's.  At least that's the way it is around here.


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## Gavjenks (Jan 16, 2014)

There's a big difference between walking a few feet onto somebody's lawn for an angle of something across the street, versus, like, climbing a fence with a big no trespassing sign on it.

If I'm confident nobody is going to shoot me, and I am not going into dangerous or clearly barricaded areas, I don't usually care much about it. Otherwise, doesn't seem worth it. Contact the owner and be polite.


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## Ihatemymoney (Jan 17, 2014)

I have my place posted no trespassing, its for everyone's protection.

My dogs are going to be all over anyone that comes on the property. 
I don't have allot of bed side manors when it come to people (Willingly) trespassing on my property.
I will not be reasonable ..... in any way shape or form.


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## JoeW (Jan 17, 2014)

spacefuzz said:


> I'm just curious, has anyone here ever been charged with trespassing for taking a photograph? Especially after the fact.
> 
> Particularly interested in national parks......hypothetically speaking.



I think you're mixing a couple of issues here.

1.  There are plenty of places that require you to have a permit or license or insurance (or all of the above) to take photos...or take photos with a tripod...or a lens above a certain length.  For instance, most serious concerts limit the ability to take pictures and you run the risk of getting tossed.  Most professional sporting venues limit the size of lens that spectators can bring in to the stadium and will prohibit speed lights.  Try taking a tripod up to the top of the Sears Building and they won't let you use it.

2.  All the National public parks I'm aware of require photographers to have a permit for commercial photography.

3.  Most State and local police departments will get a call from a local power plant or refinery if you stop to take pictures of the facility (even if you're not on private land--yes, I know personally that this happens b/c twice I've had visits from the local police department after my description and license plate were called in by plant employees).

4.  Trespassing occurs whether you take a photo or not.  Now, b/c of efforts to disclose industrial farming and animal treatment, there are a number of bills in a couple of states that prohibit people from taking pictures of farms and animals in those respective states or make trespassing on the land a felony.  In those instances, it's the state farm lobby trying to cut down on PETA-type expose photos of how the cows are being slaughtered or the pigs raised or the puppy farm conditions.


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## Tailgunner (Jan 17, 2014)

JoeW said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just curious, has anyone here ever been charged with trespassing for taking a photograph? Especially after the fact.
> ...



Agreed, especially #4 and if it involves a nuclear power plant! Military bases as well. 

I was reading on another photo forum full of locals where a near by park has started requiring photographers to buy a permit in order to photograph the park. You can drive it no problems but security will come running up on you asking for a permit if they see a camera.  

Edited: Here is some info on what is required when shooting in National Parks. 
*National Park Service*

Neither a permit nor a fee is required for still photography, unless the photography


Uses a model, set, or prop; or,
Takes place at a location where or when members of the public are not allowed; or,
The NPS would incur costs for providing on-site management and oversight to protect agency resources or minimize visitor use conflicts.
A photography permit will not be issued if the NPS determine that it is likely that the activity would:


Cause resource damage; or,
Unreasonably disrupt or conflict with the publics use and enjoyment of the site; or,
Pose health or safety risks to the public; or,
Result in unacceptable impacts or impairment to National Park Service resources or values; or,
Violate the Wilderness Act (16 USC 11311136) or any other applicable Federal, State, or local law or regulation.


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## spacefuzz (Jan 17, 2014)

JoeW said:


> spacefuzz said:
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> 
> > I'm just curious, has anyone here ever been charged with trespassing for taking a photograph? Especially after the fact.
> ...



I am not mixing issues, people just havn't guessed the national park I'm planning a trip to yet   If a rather distinctive area is closed due to safety issues and someone takes a photo......do they go after you?


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## Tailgunner (Jan 17, 2014)

spacefuzz said:


> JoeW said:
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> > spacefuzz said:
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Yellowstone or Cape Hatteras National Seashore?


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## spacefuzz (Jan 17, 2014)

Tailgunner said:


> spacefuzz said:
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> > JoeW said:
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I will leave it a mystery incase I decide to be naughty.


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## 412 Burgh (Jan 17, 2014)

Guys... c'mon just get a quadcopter. I doubt they own the air rights.. (actually I have no idea) lol


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## skieur (Jan 17, 2014)

rlemert said:


> spacefuzz said:
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> 
> > Seems like TPF has a bunch of law abiding citizens on it.
> ...



Even more so when they do not know their legal rights and use them.


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## manaheim (Jan 17, 2014)

I once ignored a "no trespassing" sign because I was curious and I knew I wasn't going to do anything "bad", so what the hell?

Then I turned a corner and saw it was a public water facility and went "ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ****."

What followed after was ... very frightening.

My advice... pay attention to the signs.


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## weepete (Jan 17, 2014)

Nah mate, I'm on those sites all the time. As long as you dont decide to walk along the top of sewage tanks you'll be fine. 

As for tresspassing, thankfully it's a bit murky in my country, we have a lot of public access rights. But I've done it. I am careful to not cause any damage and it's not like lots of people have guns and I don't take photos in people's windows or that but if there is a shot and a fence I'll be over it.


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## JoeW (Jan 17, 2014)

spacefuzz said:


> JoeW said:
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> > spacefuzz said:
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You're going to have to be much more specific.  If I post a picture of a secure facility, indicating that I have clearly trespassed (b/c I couldn't have gotten a picture of say...the ACE/Delta "Kill House" at Ft. Bragg or a picture of one of the SCIFs at the CIA facility in Warrenton, you'd better believe someone will come after you. So yes, you can be arrested for taking a picture of a prohibited facility that you can access only by trespassing.  But I don't think that's what you're thinking of--breaking in to a secure and classified govt. or military facility.

Yes, some people received tickets for being caught in the National Parks during the shutdown--so they got tickets for trespassing when the park was closed.  

What you seem to be implying is irrelevant of any photo being taken.  You seem to be asking:  if you trespass and there is proof you trespassed (a photo, a video on YouTube, an interview with the media where you boast of trespassing, if you lose your wallet on-site demonstrating you were there when it was closed to the public, if you leave fingers prints at the National Archives the night the copy of the US Constitution is stolen), will you get in trouble.  The Federal Govt. may indeed choose to come after you.  Usually the US Park Service is too busy to deal with trespassers "after the fact."  But sometimes not.


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## JacaRanda (Jan 17, 2014)

As crazy as I may seem on the internet, I do enjoy my life, my health, and my freedom!  In public common sense prevails most of the time.


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## photofree (Jan 17, 2014)

Asking nicely can open doors and get tips to similar sites. Without a release you may retain copyright but if you publish its at your own risk. Knowing the law is OK. But nothing pisses off a cop like having the law told to him, even when its obvious he does not know it. If I need a **** for a part of something else, I might take the shot then play dumb,be sorry, and leave. Yes I have been run off a few times and even deleted some frames while the policeman watched. Since 911 a DSLR is a potential felony in large cities. Its not worth fighting, just be sorry and leave fast. 

profound thinking about stuff


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## snowbear (Jan 18, 2014)

I had a classmate that wanted a couple shots along a new highway construction site.  She went to the office and asked if it was OK.  Not only did they allow her, they actually set up a date and time and took her around the site, but pretty much giving her free reign.


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## skieur (Jan 18, 2014)

There is a bit of apples and oranges here in the sense that there are differences in the law:

private property unsigned
private property signed
private property that is a public place (malls, arenas, libraries etc.)
public property

However with the exception of buildings on a list that are top secret in the US (area 51 for example), private places like washrooms, change rooms etc, there is NO law against taking photos anywhere and the photographer retains rights to their photos even if they were trespassing.


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## bratkinson (Jan 19, 2014)

Man struck and killed by Amtrak train near Auburn | KING5.com Seattle

From the text of the article and other sources available, it would appear that the photographer and female subject were taking pictures on the tracks.

SPLAT!!!

End of discussion.


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## fokker (Jan 19, 2014)

I have four trespass notices hidden away somewehere, though oddly none of them were photography related. I have, and will continue to, trespass on a regular basis in order to get a photo that I want. I guess that's what happens when you grow up in a country where people don't go around shooting people on a regular basis.


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## Nervine (Jan 19, 2014)

manaheim said:


> I once ignored a "no trespassing" sign because I was curious and I knew I wasn't going to do anything "bad", so what the hell?  Then I turned a corner and saw it was a public water facility and went "ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ****."  What followed after was ... very frightening.  My advice... pay attention to the signs.



There is a local water facility i really really want to walk around and shoot both sunset/sunrise and macro work. I have contemplated it but not going to happen and there are signs every 10 meters along the fences. 

The only time I have knowingly trespassed was onto a military barracks/training site when I was 17 with some mates (not photography related). I can still remember the adrenaline and we only walked maybe 500 meters into the site all thick bush.


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## spacefuzz (Jan 19, 2014)

JoeW said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > JoeW said:
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To my knowledge there are no classified facilities located inside a national park, so that shouldnt be an issue.


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## rexbobcat (Jan 19, 2014)

In my hometown I once went into an abandoned house in an area that is almost completely abandoned (small town), and then a homeless man came in and said he wouldn't say anything if I gave him twenty bucks. 

Being in a part of town with very few inhabitants with expensive camera gear and having a random dude coming in demanding money was...kind of a stressful experience. I haven't trespassed since then lol


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## Luke345678 (Jan 19, 2014)

Psh, trespass? Break the rules? Psh, nawwwww.


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## Tailgunner (Jan 19, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> In my hometown I once went into an abandoned house in an area that is almost completely abandoned (small town), and a homeless guy came into the home and then a homeless man came in and said he wouldn't say anything if I gave him twenty bucks.
> 
> Being in a part of town with very few inhabitants with expensive camera gear and having a random dude coming in demanding money was...kind of a stressful experience. I haven't trespassed since then lol



I carry a large can of pepper spray for this very reason...that and a tactical pocket knife. It's get a little nerve racking when you're crawling around levees, bridges, and downtown buildings at night.


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## JacaRanda (Jan 19, 2014)

fokker said:


> I guess that's what happens when you grow up in a country where people don't go around shooting people on a regular basis.



Must be nice!


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## Josh66 (Jan 19, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> In my hometown I once went into an abandoned house in an area that is almost completely abandoned (small town), and then a homeless man came in and said he wouldn't say anything if I gave him twenty bucks.
> 
> Being in a part of town with very few inhabitants with expensive camera gear and having a random dude coming in demanding money was...kind of a stressful experience. I haven't trespassed since then lol


Who would have have "said something" to?  He was basically doing the same thing you were, just without a camera.


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## skieur (Jan 19, 2014)

bratkinson said:


> Man struck and killed by Amtrak train near Auburn | KING5.com Seattle
> 
> From the text of the article and other sources available, it would appear that the photographer and female subject were taking pictures on the tracks.
> 
> ...



Well, there is no law that protects anyone from total stupidity.


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## JoeW (Jan 19, 2014)

Spacefuzz, believe it or not, there actually are a lot of secure or classified facilities that either are in, are surrounded by, border, or have national park land in the facility.

Among the ones that occur to me are....29 Palms (next to Joshua Tree), USS Arizona Memorial next to secure facilities at Ford Island and Pearl Harbor, The Warrenton Training Center, Vandenberg AFB, Ft. Monroe and White Sands national park is right next to White Sands Missile Range.  Given the size of places like Ft. Hood and a number of other military posts, I'd be surprised if there aren't at a bunch more military and IC installations in the West that border or are in National Parks.  Additionally, a couple of other places that have some public land in them or around them or next to them are...
--the NASA facility next to the Wallops Island National Refuge
--I did a shoot at the Pax River NAS Air Show...but photography on the route across the Pax River NAS to the air show location was prohibited.
--The National Cryptological Museum at the NSA (don't know if the NPS runs the NCM but it's public space open to the public).


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