# Client demanding RAW files. Now what?



## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

I took a client last month who signed my standard photography agreement, which is $100 for a 2-hour session which includes online proofs and a $25 credit toward purchases of prints, etc.  So I get an e-mail from the husband last week that he just assumed a CD of all the high resolution images came with the sitting fee and that he could not afford my print prices.  Now he is insisting I sell him all of my RAW images for $100 because he cannot afford my prints.  He said it was his wife's mistake to hire me and he never would have used my services if he'd known what my prices are. 

I am very competitive for my area and no one I know gives away 50+ RAW images for $100.  I personally don't want to give him the RAW images because he knows nothing about photography and will probably butcher the photos. He is obviously not going to be a repeat customer since he doesn't like my prices, but my feeling is that if he didn't look at my price list before he hired me, then there is no room for negotiation at this point.  He says he wants the images so he can print them at Walmart where it's cheap.  (I personally don't want my work printed at Walmart, but that's another story.) I have told him three times I never sell RAW images but I would gladly sell him a CD of high resolution jpegs at my standard rate.  

Anyway, he is now bullying me and claiming he is too poor and has to have the RAW photos.  I am beside myself.  How many times can I say "no" before he stops this.  What do you guys do?


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

Don't do it.

If they can't afford you, they should have shopped around more.


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> Anyway, he is now bullying me and claiming he is too poor and has to have the RAW photos.  I am beside myself.  How many times can I say "no" before he stops this.  What do you guys do?



Tell him, "I'm sorry that you cannot afford my services, but my prices are what they are.  They are not flexible."


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## KmH (Jul 11, 2009)

Hang onto your RAW files. It's not your fault he didn't read your agreement.

Point out that Wal-Mart is cheap because the don't sell images. All they sell is paper and a bit of ink.

I would contact the authorities if he is being verbally abusive, that could constitute assault.

Say no as many times as it takes.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

He's not being verbally abusive, not yet anyway, just constantly e-mailing me, insisting I sell him the RAW files so he can print them himself.  I just can't even fathom selling anyone a RAW file, particularly someone who clearly isn't going to purchase anything from me and is looking for the cheapest option.

I realize if I don't sell him the files he probably won't buy anything, but it's not about the money at this point.  I know I am in the right.  He signed the agreement.  His wife speaks very little English and I guess she just made the assumption that the $100 fee meant photography AND all the files.

I even asked him," Didn't it seem odd to you that I would spend two hours photographing your family, spend hours editing proofs, and then give you a CD with 50 high resolution images, all for only $100?"  He never answered me on that one.

I do feel badly because the wife was very sweet, but I can't start pricing my work based upon financial hardship.


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## ironsidephoto (Jul 11, 2009)

I wouldn't give in. It's his mistake, even if his wife is at fault for it. A contract was signed, and you don't have to do anything more--especially since he won't be a repeat. He assumed, and he was wrong--end of story, in my book. Have you been paid anything yet?


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

He just paid me the sitting fee at the time of his appointment.  I'm sure he'll demand that back, too.


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> He just paid me the sitting fee at the time of his appointment.  I'm sure he'll demand that back, too.



I'm sure that your contract states that this is non-refundable, right?


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I realize if I don't sell him the files he probably won't buy anything



If you _do_ sell him the files, he *definitely* won't buy anything.  That's the whole reason he wants the files...


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

Yes, it is very clear the fee is non-refundable.


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## twocolor (Jul 11, 2009)

It doesn't matter who signed the contract, him or his wife.  The deal was made, the contract signed and you kept your end of the bargain.  

DO NOT give your RAW files away.  

Your sitting fee is cheap. You could probably double that and still be under selling yourself.

He can whine and cry all he wants, you are legally in the right.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

Thanks everyone.  You are right. This is just the dose of encouragement I needed, thank you.


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## Guido44 (Jul 11, 2009)

Not sure if this is even important or not but Walmart only processes JPEG files.

If he took the RAW files over there on a disk, they can't print them at Walmart anyway. In fact, I don't think any retail outlet handles anything but JPEG ..... unless he's planning on doing some editing of his own?

Good job by the way, getting it in writing.

Dan

I have a particular dislike for Walmart .... anything.


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## Dwig (Jul 11, 2009)

One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.


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## benhasajeep (Jul 11, 2009)

He probably bought a $80 printer and some $5 paper and he's going to save a fortune on printing his own.  Keep to your guns and say no studio or photographer gives out raw files to clients unless its agreed upon before services are rendered.  He is probably taking the price of paper and figuring an 8x10 only costs him $.10 each.  But not considering time, ink, electirc (his own other expenses).  And he is definately not thinking of studio equipment costs, insurances, taxes, etc.. that is involved with any business.

He is just trying to save some money.  And like suggested if he keeps up, just put his address in the junk bin.


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## camera obscura (Jul 11, 2009)

Dwig said:


> One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.



+1


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## astrostu (Jul 11, 2009)

No photographer gives away RAW files.  That's just wrong to do.  A contract is a contract is a contract (... though only among Ferangis).  But seriously, a contract is a contract and I'm fairly certain that it was actually the very first US Supreme Court case that established the near-iron-cladness of a contract.  He's SOL.



KmH said:


> I would contact the authorities if he is being verbally abusive, that could constitute assault.



No, it wouldn't.  Assault means that someone, well, assaulted you and usually even requires physical injury to count.  Now, "harassment" is an appropriate adjective in this case, I think.


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## photographyfanatic (Jul 11, 2009)

Tell him to sue you. Cause you would win.


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

photographyfanatic said:


> Tell him to sue you. Cause you would win.





No lawyer would take that case...


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## tsaraleksi (Jul 11, 2009)

As an aside, it's quite possible that when he is saying "raw" files he means all of the jpegs or whatever-- more than a few people I've come in contact with have a weird notion that the photographer is somehow hiding images from them. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but it sure is more logical than wanting a CD of .nefs or .cr2s. 

That said, a contract is a contract. My guess is that there was no mistake, he's just trying to bully you into saving him a few dollars.


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## RJohnston (Jul 11, 2009)

Never give out copies of RAW files, regardless of what his reason might be.  A contract is a contract and if he wants them, suggest he take it to small claims court.  IF they could afford the sitting, etc, undoubtedly they CAN afford your prices which are probably in the same bracket.  He just knows that he can have them made cheaper at Walmart or Print them himself and who knows how many times he may have pulled this before.

If he does file, file a counter suit.  No judge in small claims will give him a dime and might even give you an award for harassment and your time. Judges are quite familiar about how Photographers work, know the prices that are fair, etc.

If he persists in harassing you or bullying call the police.

Tape any phone calls he makes, if it is legal in your state... If there are requirements for taping, follow them. In many states it is only necessary that one party know they are being taped, thats you.  Keep a record of each instance when he calls or approaches you personally.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and you have no idea just how far he might go.


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## benhasajeep (Jul 11, 2009)

I will give one suggestion here.  Don't ever, ever mention court.  Even if your serious in pursuing the court option.  As there are some people itching for a court fight, no matter if they have a strong case or not.  And you cannot always recoup your court costs if someone tries a stupid suit against you.  Mentioning court is not a good plan.

Just preserve your information, including his emails and pack it away for several years.  In most places he will have a couple years to file a complaint.  Keep the information to protect yourself.  And cut your ties with this person.


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## RJohnston (Jul 11, 2009)

Personally I love going to small claims court. The judge is the "attorney" for both sides and is impartial.  Ive been sued several times and each time walked away winning.  Never with less than $500 plus court costs.  

The last time I was sued for $500, I filed a counter suit. It shook him up when we came into court with 39 witnesses to testify, so he admitted what he had been doing... He had been doing this on a regular basis, most of the time suing young people who did not understand their rights. Many just would not show up, so he won by default.  This guy may have been pulling things like this with people for years.

The judge wound accusing the plaintiff of attempting to use the courts for blackmail.  Gave me $500 and $2000 in punitive damages.  

Then, turned the records over to the prosecutor.  He wound up in jail, so could not collect at that time.  However, in CA you have up to 20 years to collect on a judgment.  But did collect a year after he was released, and went back into his own business.  Marshal's went to his business and collected the money.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

I kind of doubt this guy would go to court.  He seems willing to pay for the RAW files, but only 100 bucks which is laughable.  You are right, he probably has no idea that RAW isn't jpeg.  He seems to me like someone who is trying to get the cheapest possible professional photos of his kid that he can get.  I mean, you can't even walk out of Sears without spending a few hundred on their portraits.  I will write him now and tell him yet again, "no", I don't sell my raw files.  I'll report back here with his reply, but something tells me this is about to get ugly.  The only positive here is that he keeps saying how much he loves the photos, he just can't afford my print prices.  Even more reason not to sell him the RAW photos...he would be very disappointed with SOOC images, I'm sure.


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> ...he would be very disappointed with SOOC images, I'm sure.



Under no circumstances should he ever even see those...  Those are for your eyes only.


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## kundalini (Jul 11, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> Lauren Fitzgerald said:
> 
> 
> > ...he would be very disappointed with SOOC images, I'm sure.
> ...


+1 x10. The RAW files are your negatives. Keep them close to the vest. Nobody sees my RAW files 'cept me.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> Lauren Fitzgerald said:
> 
> 
> > ...he would be very disappointed with SOOC images, I'm sure.
> ...



I couldn't agree with you more.  The magic is in the post-processing.  He claims he has friends with technical skill, which makes me think he would give them my RAW images to mess with.  I would think that there would be copyright implications there, as I hold the copyright to the images. Wouldn't I also have to turn over the copyright in order for him to alter and print the photos legally?  Or am I mistaken?


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## Josh66 (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm not exactly up-to-date on the copyright implications, but I wouldn't chance anything.
DO NOT give him RAWs, don't even let him _look at them_.

Show him the finished product, and nothing more.  It sounds like he isn't going to buy anything anyway, so dont cater to him one bit.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 11, 2009)

RJohnston said:


> The judge wound accusing the plaintiff of attempting to use the courts for blackmail.  Gave me $500 and $2000 in punitive damages.


 Wow, was this photography related or something else?


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## KmH (Jul 11, 2009)

astrostu said:


> No photographer gives away RAW files. That's just wrong to do. A contract is a contract is a contract (... though only among Ferangis). But seriously, a contract is a contract and I'm fairly certain that it was actually the very first US Supreme Court case that established the near-iron-cladness of a contract. He's SOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The exact definition will vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but just about anywhere in the US, all it takes to commit a simple assault is to touch someone. Felonious assault involves injury.

A quick blurb from the Wiki on 'simple assault', "in other jurisdictions, such as the United States, assault may refer only to the threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force."


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## DSPhotography (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I would think that there would be copyright implications there, as I hold the copyright to the images. Wouldn't I also have to turn over the copyright in order for him to alter and print the photos legally?  Or am I mistaken?



I believe you would. RAW files are basically the digital equivalent of negatives.. and whoever owns the negatives owns the copyright. 

You may wish to point out to him that without a photographers release, wal-mart probably won't allow him to print anything off a disc you sell him. I semi-pro friend of mine did self portraits (backdrop, lighting, etc.). Took the disc to wal-mart to get several sets printed for relatives and they refused her, saying that they couldn't legally allow her to have prints made from a professional shoot without a release. It may or may not help you, but it's at least something else you can throw back at him to reinforce your "no".


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## Nicholas James Photo (Jul 12, 2009)

Tell him that you have put them in the trash. That you are a pro and not a charity. That he should be talking to his wife, not you. He is the one who wants to break a contract that you are happy to uphold.
Best of luck with this "client"


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## christm (Jul 12, 2009)

The wife signed the agreement, therefore you are not forced to do anything that is not stated within the agreement. Do not sell him the RAW's.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

Actually, his wife hired me but he signed the agreement, so he really has no excuses.  Anyway, I was paranoid reading about the court stuff.  I did a little research and this guy has sued everyone right down to Safeway.  All of the cases were dismissed, but still...


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

so this guy has money to spend on suing someone? but not on prints? well you can obviously see his priorities are to try suing people  to get rich quick... you figure after a few failed attempts and lots of money down the drain that he might get a clue. 

Stay strong, I would never sell RAW files at any cost, let alone $100 for 50 of them? guy is a idiot! Let him take you to court, this one will get thrown out too or you will make out with some money in the deal.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

Unless he has a friend who is a lawyer who does this for free.  I suppose I could counter-sue him for harassment, considering I have said "no" to the raw files four times now and he keeps hounding me.


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

well I mean it doesn't matter if he has a friend that helps him out... because he is a terrible lawyer for continuously helping him and losing lol 

You have a contract... thats enough right there to just get it thrown out haha


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## DSPhotography (Jul 12, 2009)

I know it's really stressful and annoying to you, and I hate to admit this, but this whole scenario is kind of amusing. Not that it's happening to you, but because of how this guy is acting. If I were in your position, I would welcome the opportunity for him to want to take me to court. He has absolutely NO ground to stand on, and it gives you the perfect chance to counter-sue for harassment. Time away from work and emotional distress can get you a pretty penny. You may even get him in trouble with the law if you point out how sue-happy he is.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

LOL!  This is true, there is something comical about the whole thing.

Nonetheless, this has been pretty stressful, even though I can see right through him and what he's doing.  My 12-year old son is having spinal fusion surgery on Wednesday.  This guy is really not helping my anxiety at the moment.


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## Nicholas James Photo (Jul 12, 2009)

Concentrate on getting your son well and forget about this idiot. Good luck for Wednesday, not that you need luck, everything will be fine.


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## NJMAN (Jul 12, 2009)

Block his email address so he can't email you.  If he calls, threaten to call the authorities for harassment and stalking.  You are a reputable business and should not tolerate even the slightest bit of this nonsense.  Show him you mean business.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

Thank you.    I've actually been trying to figure out in Microsoft Outlook if there is a way to do an automatic reply to specific e-mail addresses, so I can just say I'm out of the office when he writes.  I'm not sure how to do that or to block.  I'll keep playing with it.  I've never had to do this before.  At least this one has given me a valuable learning experience.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

Oh, and thank you, Nicholas. I appreciate that.  I keep telling myself it will be fine.  He has a bad curve...90 degrees, so it's going to be a big surgery.


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

Let me check with outlook for you. Thats what my college uses and I do believe there is an auto response feature.


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## Josh66 (Jul 12, 2009)

CW Jones said:


> Let me check with outlook for you. Thats what my college uses and I do believe there is an auto response feature.



There is, but I'm not sure if you can make it go out just for one e-mail address...


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> CW Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Let me check with outlook for you. Thats what my college uses and I do believe there is an auto response feature.
> ...




Yup I dont think you can... I just checked and its an auto response to all incoming E-mails... well it would still work I guess? depending on how many E-mails she gets haha


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## NJMAN (Jul 12, 2009)

If you have Outlook 2007, you can create a rule to automatically block messages from a specific sender.  Right click  on one of the messages from that sender and choose the Create Rule option. Go through the listing of choices and choose to Permanently Delete the message.  That should take care of it.   Hope this helps.   

Anyone who goes to that much trouble to give you a hard time for something legit is not worth your time at all.  Cut off communication as quickly as you can.


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## Josh66 (Jul 12, 2009)

I wouldn't waste my time replying to them, but it might be a good idea to save them.

...Just in case you have to prove what an ass he was being later on.


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## henkelphoto (Jul 12, 2009)

Hi Lauren, 

  Well, my thoughts on this are that this whole mess just isn't worth the mental anquish and actual time you are devoting to it. He obviously is not going to do anything that's going to cost him any more money. 

  I don't know what your annual gross is, but if it were me, I would cut him a check for his $100 and send it and a note saying that since you can't come to an agreement, you are making a one-time exception to your non-refundable rule. Also tell him that you've destroyed his raw files, thank you very much. And let go of it. 

Jerry


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## ann (Jul 12, 2009)

i second jerry suggestion

nothing is worth this 100 dollars, you have more important matters to take up your time. your son.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

henkelphoto said:


> Hi Lauren,
> 
> 
> I don't know what your annual gross is, but if it were me, I would cut him a check for his $100 and send it and a note saying that since you can't come to an agreement, you are making a one-time exception to your non-refundable rule. Also tell him that you've destroyed his raw files, thank you very much. And let go of it.
> ...



I like this idea.  Thank you.  That is perfect.


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

I would have to disagree... if you refund the $100 then this guy gets the idea that his little "games" would work. You had a contract... tough for him, he signed it and needs to learn how to deal with it. I would NOT give that guy a penny back.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

I was thinking I might refund him just the $25 print credit he doesn't intend to use, then tell him I am destroying the photos. I want to at least be compensated for my time that he already used, but make it clear I have no interest in working with him or his demands.


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

Exactly, you did a job which took YOUR time that you could have been out shooting another client. I personally wouldn't give him the $25 back even. Dont get rid of the pictures just in case he does decide to use his print credit. On your contract does it say anywhere that you cannot get the $25 credit in cash? like "$25 credit has no cash value and you can't get it in cash" type of thing?


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

CW Jones said:


> Exactly, you did a job which took YOUR time that you could have been out shooting another client. I personally wouldn't give him the $25 back even. Dont get rid of the pictures just in case he does decide to use his print credit. On your contract does it say anywhere that you cannot get the $25 credit in cash? like "$25 credit has no cash value and you can't get it in cash" type of thing?



No, my contract doesn't stat that the credit has cash value, just that the session fee includes $25 toward print/product purchases.  You have an excellent point, and I am going to put that into my contract.


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## CW Jones (Jul 12, 2009)

I don't want to take credit for the idea... I feel like I saw it on a Monopoly game piece from McDonalds haha


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

CW Jones said:


> I don't want to take credit for the idea... I feel like I saw it on a Monopoly game piece from McDonalds haha



LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## henkelphoto (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren, 

Your time is worth money. And how much of your time has already been spent here on line talking about this and how much of your time has been spend online with this guy? Time you could have been using working on another order, time you could have been spending on your business plan, time you could have been spending just sitting back and enjoying your free time. Instead, you are wasting time dealing with a low life deadbeat. 

Is that even worth $100, much less $75. It's great for you to stick up for your ideals as CW Jones says, but the reality is this is taking up way too much of your time. And if this guy does like to sue, just think of all the fun times you'll have preparing for court and then taking time off in the middle of the day to go to court. Sure you may win, but if he doesn't want to pay, you'll spend even more time getting an injunction against him, dealing with the marshalls to go pick him up, trying to put a garnish on his wages (not sure a judge would even try a garnishment for $100 + fees). 

But it's your business...


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## KmH (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren,

Your profile doesn't show what country you are in. Canadian copyright law is substantially different than US law.

It is my understanding that in Canada, unless your contract specifically stipulates otherwise, the client owns the copyrights to the images.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

I'm in the U.S.  From what I understand, the photographer owns the copyright to the images in the U.S.  At least that is how I have always understood it, much the way an author owns the copyright to his work.

All good points and very much appreciated. I will sleep on the information and figure out what to do in the morning...or maybe I'll just put this off for later.  As you say, I have more important things to do with my time, and right now I need to finish proofing another client and worry about my little boy. 

Thanks everyone for the very thoughtful response to my dilemna.  Your support has given me much to consider and think about.  I truly appreciate it.


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## manaheim (Jul 12, 2009)

Dwig said:


> One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.


 
Not communicating with a client seems like an excellent way to not have business.

Not that you should get sucked into a huge debate over it.  Contract is a contract and the RAWs are not part of the contract, but putting a client in your junk filter seems silly.  Just don't argue the point.

The way I would handle this is...

1. Double-check with the client and make sure they understand what a RAW file is and point out that it takes significantly more work to process these images correctly.  As someone else pointed out, they really  may just want an image they can print themselves.

2. Honestly, just set your price.

I mean seriously... they want the RAW files?  Sure.  Why the hell not?  For a price.  Perhaps they just want JPEGs they can print?  Sure!  Why the hell not?   Just set a price.

Me, personally, I'd put RAWs at a RIDICULOUSLY high price.  Like I usually run about $1500 for an average building shoot... if they want the RAW images, I'd price it at around $6000, and that's with me still retaining primary copyright and with a limited usage clause.  If they want exclusivity?  $12,000.  Has anyone ever taken me up on this?  No way.  Which is perfect, because I don't really want them to have them anyway... but that being said, if they're willing to give me $5000 or $10,000 for them?  Well... that's the point at which I stop being uncomfortable with the idea of them having my RAW images.

Business is business, and everything has a price.  You just have to decide where that price is.  Let him know the price for your options and anytime he howls at you asking for the RAWs (or whatever) simply say "Why certainly, I'll send you an invoice and send you the images as soon as I receive payment."

No emotion, no freaking out... just set your price and stick to it.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

I totally agree with you.  I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to.  But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem.  He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.)  He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee.  He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.


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## manaheim (Jul 12, 2009)

hehe, yup.  Well, you're at the point where you say that you're sorry but those are the terms and let it drop.  If nothing else, it's certainly entertaining.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 12, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Dwig said:
> 
> 
> > One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.
> ...





I started reading this thread thinking I would probably not say anything because someone would give you the right idea on how to deal with this guy. But I read and read and read and it just got worse and worse until I came to manaheim's post and I said to myself: "finally some common sense."

You are a pro, act like one. Do not act like a child. I've had a few idiots like that in my career like every other pro has or will have. You need to stay cool and professional. Believe me it will do a lot more for you that getting hot headed.

And, as someone else mentioned, do not tell the guy to take you to court. You most probably would win but at what cost? Not everybody is good at representing themselves. If you're one of those, you'd need a lawyer. If you pick a cheap one because that is all you can afford, you could end up losing.
Just not a good idea!

Don't block this guy's emails either. What if he comes to his senses and sends you one ordering prints? Just not a good idea either!

As manaheim said, set your prices for all different possibilities then send the client an email clearly stating what the different possibilities are (with a short and sweet explanation of what each file format is) and the rates for each.

Every time you get an email that is not an order, just respond with something similar to this (again from manaheim): "Why certainly, I'll send you an invoice and send you the images as soon as I receive payment." Figure out a similar thing that will deal with just about any request he could make so that you can always sent the same email back. That will throw him off tracks.

Last but not least, why not sell RAW files. This guy is most probably going to give you a bad rap no matter what. So does it make much difference if it is for bad prints that he made from you RAW files he didn't know what to do with? Not really.

But don't make it easy for him either. Set you rates high so that if he is stupid enough to pay them at least you make some good money.

What is most important in this is, that by giving him options instead of just saying no to his idiotic demands, you make him the decision maker. With your rates, you can make him pick a way to go that you can live with.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I totally agree with you.  I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to.  But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem.  He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.)  He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee.  He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.



Did he tell you what he wanted exactly (RAW files) and what his budget was when he signed the contract?

If not, there lies no problem of yours. It is his problem. You have no need whatsoever to make it yours.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 12, 2009)

All good points. Thank you. 

Yes, he said RAW images, but I think someone told him to say that.  I don't think he understands what that means.  He believes that by asking for photos SOOC that they ought to be cheaper and only worth a hundred bucks, as opposed to ones edited and saved as jpeg.  True, it would be easy enough to slap them on a disc, but not at that price. Not so much because he would make muliple cheap copies (although that idea does irk me), but because I think it's important to remain fair, consistent and professional when it comes to pricing and not give one customer special treatment while everyone else pays the going rate.  I don't think I should compromise my integrity because he is bullying me.  No, he never told me his budget at the session. As a matter of fact, he waited until the day his online proofing gallery was to expire to even contact me and tell me he couldn't afford my prices.  

I honestly don't care if I sell him RAW, jpeg, prints, etc.  But I won't give my work away for next to nothing.


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## manaheim (Jul 12, 2009)

There's a certain humor to the idea of actually giving him RAW images as he'd have absolutely no idea what to do with them.

Then when he calls you can explain you'd be happy to convert them to usable format for a mere $5000. 

(no, don't actually do this, but it _is_ fun to think about...)


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> All good points. Thank you.
> 
> Yes, he said RAW images, but I think someone told him to say that.  I don't think he understands what that means.  He believes that by asking for photos SOOC that they ought to be cheaper and only worth a hundred bucks, as opposed to ones edited and saved as jpeg.  True, it would be easy enough to slap them on a disc, but not at that price. Not so much because he would make muliple cheap copies (although that idea does irk me), but because I think it's important to remain fair, consistent and professional when it comes to pricing and not give one customer special treatment while everyone else pays the going rate.  I don't think I should compromise my integrity because he is bullying me.  No, he never told me his budget at the session. As a matter of fact, he waited until the day his online proofing gallery was to expire to even contact me and tell me he couldn't afford my prices.
> 
> I honestly don't care if I sell him RAW, jpeg, prints, etc.  But I won't give my work away for next to nothing.





Well then, set your rates, send them to him and don't budge. And, as manaheim said, set them high enough that he won't want to pay them.

Basic psychology says you do not ever want to say no to a customer/client. Instead of saying no, you give them options and you let them make the ultimate decision. But that does not mean you can't control the decision they make by the options you offer them.

A RAW file for $1,000.00 or a 4x6 for $25.00. Which one is the average customer going to choose? Period.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 12, 2009)

manaheim said:


> There's a certain humor to the idea of actually giving him RAW images as he'd have absolutely no idea what to do with them.
> 
> Then when he calls you can explain you'd be happy to convert them to usable format for a mere $5000.
> 
> (no, don't actually do this, but it _is_ fun to think about...)




:thumbup:

Absolutely beautiful! :lmao:

:lmao:

:lmao:


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## msf (Jul 12, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I totally agree with you. I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to. But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem. He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.) He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee. He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.



Depending on your print prices, you could offer him something in the $25 range.  one wallet perhaps.   or proofs of the images that are heavily watermarked and low res?  

You have to consider the bad rep that they might be giving you though.  They are probably not giving you glowing recomendations to everyone that will listen to them.


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## Restomage (Jul 12, 2009)

Just curious, it seems like everyone here is against giving their clients RAW files, I don't see the harm in it. I understand the thread-starter's situation but I'm saying in general it seems like everyone is against it.


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## manaheim (Jul 12, 2009)

Restomage said:


> Just curious, it seems like everyone here is against giving their clients RAW files, I don't see the harm in it. I understand the thread-starter's situation but I'm saying in general it seems like everyone is against it.


 
There are a variety of problems with it...


You are giving the client the ability to create/print/use images at whim with no real technical limitations.
You are giving the client the ability to interpret your images without consideration to your artistic choices or your quality standards.
You are allowing the client to represent your capabilities through their interpretations, putting your reputation at risk.
You are giving away future revenue by giving away the source for images that could be printed and sold by you.
There may be others, but this is plenty.


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## raider (Jul 13, 2009)

give him all the raw files in the raw format - and give them all a nice gaussian blur.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 13, 2009)

msf said:


> Depending on your print prices, you could offer him something in the $25 range.  one wallet perhaps.   or proofs of the images that are heavily watermarked and low res?



Actually, I do sell a CD with low resolution jpeg images (watermarked) that would work with his budget and I pointed it out to him several times but he was not having it.  He wants the originals so that he can run off prints and that's all he wants. He's made no qualms about telling me what he plans to use the images for and that all he wants is the original digital file.

I had to laugh about selling the files then charging $5,000 to convert to jpeg. I can TOTALLY see myself getting that phone call, along with a sob story about how he didn't know that raw meant RAW and had he known that, he never would have bought the raw images. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## farmerj (Jul 13, 2009)

I have a couple suggestions:

If you are using Outlook 2007, set up a specific folder on this guy and put all his emails in there.  IF he should decide to sue you, print every one of them out with your response to give to the judge.  Open his emails long enough to see if they are an order, if not, close em, save em and be done with it.  Deleting them will remove any record of a conversation.

As Manaheim said, Give him a choice. If a 8X10 print is $25, sell him the Raw image for $500.  Make it obviously a better deal to get the print from you.  Better yet, just keep referring him to your price list.  It's your business model.  If you differ from it for him, it may haunt you in court.

Do NOT respond to him in anything but a business matter and manner.  It will haunt you in court if you do.

As you have discovered.  It's his modus operandi.  Let it work it's course.  If he's got a reputation with the courts, it will show.


As a result of the incident.
Change your contract to include a "No RAW images will be given statement."  UNDER ANY circumstance.

Make your "proof" prints so low res, even the walmart prints will look like crud.  Even down to 12 PPI is still viewable in a smallish image that can be reviewed.  For better image reviews, schedule an appointment.  Or if it's obvious they will be making an order, have them give you a list of images for higher resolution images for them to make afinal decision on.


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## Imaginis (Jul 13, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I took a client last month who signed my standard photography agreement, ...



I had a client like this last week. They read and signed the contract, which clearly stated that they will receive one print included in the sitting fee but may purchase additional prints.

A few days after the shoot, I received a call from the husband, blaming everything on the wife as well. According to him, she expected to receive 100 retouched and printed images since "Walmart only charges $.29 for a 4x6".

I explained to him that they read and signed the contract and that I am not Walmart. Nonetheless, I offered him a "special deal" - a press printed album with 24 prints in 8x10, saving him about 30% off the price of single prints (and saving me about 50% in production cost).

Maybe you can offer your client a similar deal.


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## epp_b (Jul 13, 2009)

Does this guy even know what RAW files are?  I'd bet money that, if you gave this guy the RAW files (which you shouldn't), you'd promptly get a call from him asking you how the heck he can see the files (or he'll tell you that you gave him a bunch of useless fakes).

The simple fact of the matter is that you have a written agreement signed by him and (I assume that) nothing in the agreement grants him any rights to your digital files, RAW or otherwise.  If he doesn't like that, tough beans, he agreed to it.  If he decides to try to screw in court, I can't see how a contract signed by him wouldn't make for a bulletproof case in your favour.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 17, 2009)

UGH!  Okay, I told this guy no way to the RAW images, but that I would be happy to work with him on a discount on some prints if that helped (my mistake.)  He now says he is conducing an online survey about me and my prices and, depending upon what feedback he gets, he will decide if he will buy the prints.

So I just wrote him and said I thought it would be best if we no longer do business together.  I will send him the twenty-five dollar print credit to use toward another photographer, and I will destroy the negatives.  My son is in intensive care at Johns Hopkins...this guy is being a bastard and I've had enough.  The fact that he is conducting a survey with who the heck knows on my prices makes me furious!  I am done with him.  He can make all the threats he wants. Fact is, he hired me to take photos and now doesn't like my prices so is becoming a bully.  Enough said.


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## Mike_E (Jul 17, 2009)

Since you own the copyright, could you have some fun in photo shop with the files and post the results?

Might be fun, eh?  

Put the RAWs on a CD and burn it.  Just like the bridge to a place you never want to see again.

Sorry to hear about your son.  I hope he gets well soon!!!


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## skieur (Jul 17, 2009)

Another reason that I am happy to deal with organizations and companies, rather than individuals.  I would have told him that I seldom shoot RAW files and they are never for sale to anyone.

skieur


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks.  This is the first person I've had who has tried extortion to get me to give him a lower price.  I actually have a lawyer client of mine looking into this as well as my friend who is a cop. LOL!  He is conducting a public, online survey of my prices then telling me if the general opinion is if they are fair.  What the hell is that supposed to mean?!!

So at any rate, I told him I tried my best to accommodate him but could not do business with him if he was going to be doing online discussions of me and my policies then using that to negotiate a low price. I said I would destroy the negatives and he could start fresh with someone else.  Was that bad?  Now I'm kind of regretting it.  I said it very business like, but I'm done dealing with him. I don't know what more I can do, but he is on the verge of harassment now.


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## manaheim (Jul 17, 2009)

Just so you know, generally anyone who is kinda wacky and posts any sort of irate comments about anyone... usually winds up looking wacky.  Don't worry about it.  Just ignore him.  

Personally, I wouldn't have given an inch on the prices or given him any money... but now that you've done it, you've done it.  Stick with it, cut your losses and move on.

btw, I also wouldn't destroy the "negatives".  Why bother?  You took 'em, you own 'em. 

Like I said (or I think I said), try not to get emotional about it.  He's a whack-a-doo.  The world's full of 'em.


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## Josh66 (Jul 17, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> Thanks.  This is the first person I've had who has tried extortion to get me to give him a lower price.  I actually have a lawyer client of mine looking into this as well as my friend who is a cop. LOL!  He is conducting a public, online survey of my prices then telling me if the general opinion is if they are fair.  What the hell is that supposed to mean?!!
> 
> So at any rate, I told him I tried my best to accommodate him but could not do business with him if he was going to be doing online discussions of me and my policies then using that to negotiate a low price. I said I would destroy the negatives and he could start fresh with someone else.  Was that bad?  Now I'm kind of regretting it.  I said it very business like, but I'm done dealing with him. I don't know what more I can do, but he is on the verge of harassment now.



It doesn't matter if your prices are fair.  He signed a contract agreeing to them.

...Time to move on.  If he can't let it go, file a complaint with your local law enforcement agency.


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## jess28 (Jul 17, 2009)

Cutting your losses does seem like the best option at this point.  I wouldn't worry too much, the craizes have a way of outing themselves, and few people take them seriously.  I hope your son makes a fast recovery.


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## Guido44 (Jul 17, 2009)

> give him all the raw files in the raw format - and give them all a nice gaussian blur.


:lmao:


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks. The only reason I would delete his images is because it's making me sick to look at them. I have his e-mail address set for everything to go in the trash.  What a jerk.

Thanks for the wishes about my son. I'm actually off to go be with him and stay with him for the night (just taking a break while my husband stays with him.)

I'll put this bozo out of my mind.  Conduct a survey on my prices...WHATEVER!


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## benhasajeep (Jul 18, 2009)

Do not destroy the shots!  Put them on a disc and file them away until after your states statute of limitations runs out.  Alot of states are 3 years for general lawsuits (should check yours).  He could go to court and say, I changed my mind and agreed to pay her prices, but she refused to print them!  Now, he has you in a bind!  He could also go to court and say your a bad photographer and the quality was so bad he wanted a refund.  Keep the pics to cover your butt!!

Stick to your guns.  But hide away the shots for a couple years.


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## Lauren Fitzgerald (Jul 18, 2009)

benhasajeep said:


> Do not destroy the shots!  Put them on a disc and file them away until after your states statute of limitations runs out.  Alot of states are 3 years for general lawsuits (should check yours).  He could go to court and say, I changed my mind and agreed to pay her prices, but she refused to print them!  Now, he has you in a bind!  He could also go to court and say your a bad photographer and the quality was so bad he wanted a refund.  Keep the pics to cover your butt!!
> 
> Stick to your guns.  But hide away the shots for a couple years.




Excellent point.  I will do that.  Thank you.


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## guitarkid (Jul 31, 2009)

are you kidding?  if he isn't getting hi rez images on disc, what makes him think he should get the MASTER DIGITAL FILES on disc?  there is NO WAY ANYONE could pay me for the RAWS!  they would only get hi rez jpgs and that is all.  the RAWS are the holy grail of the shoot.  it is clear this guy just wants everything for free.  strange how he is asking for the RAWS and not the hi rez jpgs.  sounds like he has a graphic designer or someone who can manipulate the RAWs to their needs.  forget it!


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## farmerj (Jul 31, 2009)

Lauren Fitzgerald said:


> I have his e-mail address set for everything to go in the trash.




Two suggestions....

Send the emails to a special folder.  Don't have to look at them, but don't trash em.

Do NOT resort to any type of public name tagging.  It will haunt you in the future if it goes to court.   Take a suggestion there.

sometimes it's REALLY hard to take the high road on things like this.


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## manaheim (Jul 31, 2009)

old thread, long dead...


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## Jon_Are (Aug 4, 2009)

> I would contact the authorities if he is being verbally abusive, that could constitute assault.





> No, it wouldn't.  Assault means that someone, well, assaulted you and usually even requires physical injury to count.



Um, not quite.

I know I'm late to the party here, but assault is when one person acts in a manner such as to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel  threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault. 

To fit the definition of assault, the threat must accompany the real possibility of bodily harm. In other words, you cannot assault someone over the phone.

When actual physical contact is involved, then you're talking battery.

Carry on.  :mrgreen:

Jon


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## harleyrider (Aug 7, 2009)

tsaraleksi said:


> As an aside, it's quite possible that when he is saying "raw" files he means all of the jpegs or whatever-- more than a few people I've come in contact with have a weird notion that the photographer is somehow hiding images from them. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but it sure is more logical than wanting a CD of .nefs or .cr2s.
> 
> That said, a contract is a contract. My guess is that there was no mistake, he's just trying to bully you into saving him a few dollars.


 
you might have something here,he my be calling it raw files but he dont know what that means if he is going to wall mart with them


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## manaheim (Aug 8, 2009)

Old thread, long dead...


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