# When a photo you enjoy gets negative CC



## blackrose89 (Dec 14, 2011)

Even if you take in the CC, if you have a photo that no one else thinks is a good photo, but you see the good and disagree, do you stand by the photo or admit photo fail?


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## CCericola (Dec 14, 2011)

Ultimately you can do whatever you want. Opinions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one and they all stink


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## rexbobcat (Dec 14, 2011)

I usually become kind of callous for a little while and then I realize that I put the effort into the image, I created it, if I enjoy it then who cares what somebody on an internet forum says. You can either create pictures that may not be perfect but that you love, or you can create images that you aren't too fond of, but that are generally accepted as 'correct.'  

I'd rather be imperfect, and happy with my images, than "sell out" and try to please others.


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## Big Mike (Dec 14, 2011)

Here is a 3 part article called 'Understanding Criticism'.  Understanding Criticism-Part 1

I haven't read the 3rd part yet, but the first two were interesting.


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## Buckster (Dec 14, 2011)

Words of Wisdom from Ricky Nelson: "You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."

I take what they offer for advice, tips, critique, smarmy comments, etc., into consideration and I thank them for their point of view.

That doesn't mean I agree with it, and it doesn't mean I'll heed it, and it doesn't mean I'll change that photo or future photos or my vision as a whole to conform to their point of view.  I will stay true to my own vision.

It doesn't mean I'll I stay stuck in a rut just to be stubborn about it either though.  I will readily adjust my photography, my vision, my methods, if they make sense to me, no matter where I picked them up and no matter who offered them to me or in what context.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 14, 2011)

If most people say it is bad, I would agree with them.  If it is a mixed CC.. maybe not.


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## KmH (Dec 14, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> Here is a 3 part article called 'Understanding Criticism'.  Understanding Criticism-Part 1
> 
> I haven't read the 3rd part yet, but the first two were interesting.


A quick synopsis for those that can only absorb 5 second sound bites;



> To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.
> Elbert Hubbard


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## paigew (Dec 14, 2011)

blackrose89 said:


> Even if you take in the CC, if you have a photo that no one else thinks is a good photo, but you see the good and disagree, do you stand by the photo or admit photo fail?



I think it depends on the image. If it brings any feelings out in you then I would stand by it. If not, then yeah, probably not so good. For me, I got bad c&c for a pic I posted of my kid. After the flaws have been pointed out I understand that its not a 'great' photo by professional standards, but I still love the photo anyway


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## SCraig (Dec 14, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> If most people say it is bad, I would agree with them.  If it is a mixed CC.. maybe not.


Not me.  If I like a photograph and everyone else in the world doesn't then their comments roll off my back.

I'm not trying to sell my photographs, I'm not trying to prove anything, and I'm not trying to impress anyone.  I shoot what I like and if **I** like it then I'm content.  That's not to say I don't listen to criticism, I do and I thank them for their comments.  If I feel it will improve a photograph I'll give it a try.  If I like the results that's great, and if I don't then I don't [shrug].

In my opinion unless one is trying to provide a client what they want (in which case one might not agree with the final adjustments) then the first, last, and only person that has to "Like" a photograph is them.

That said, I do go back and look at my photographs from years past and wonder what in the hell I could have liked about some of them.  Either my tastes or my abilities have changed over time, and I don't know which


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## shootermcgavin (Dec 14, 2011)

It doesn't matter if it's bad, a photo that would probably be considered bad on this forum just sold for a million dollars so I'd prefer to have the million dollars than peer praise.


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## KmH (Dec 14, 2011)

blackrose89 said:


> When a photo you enjoy gets negative CC


What is negative C*&*C?

C&C that says, "I like it." is pretty much negative, useless, C&C.

C&C that says, "I don't like it." is equally, negative, useless, C&C.

C&C that says, I like it (or don't like it) because........"the backround is busy", or "the lighting is flat", or "the composition of the image elements is unbalanced", or whatever are all positive C&C.


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## thierry (Dec 14, 2011)

^ Perfectly Said


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 14, 2011)

There is only one person I have to prove something to: myself. So, what others think of my work is of very little consequence.

If I showed some of my commercial work here it would get torn to shreds because it is not interesting at all. And although it would be correct, it is not the point of those shots. They are technically just fine and the goal for them is achieved. Period.

Some other shots would get high-fives for the wrong reasons. I shoot some fairly exotic cars because I have a couple museums as clients. I also shoot some cars that the public won't be seeing for another 9 or 12 months. Car freaks would get all excited about those no matter what the actual quality of the images was.

And that is the reality of C&C. To be honest, I found it much easier to C&C photos when I was teaching workshops that were art oriented. In the art world, it is fairly easy to find something to say that relates to the legacy, the history of the medium and, no matter what, you can always make it sound intelligent.

But when you deal with commercial work, so much needs to be explained about the point of the photo, the point of the negative space in the top left corner, etc, etc that by the time you are finished explaining, the shot is dead.

When you deal with photos that are meant as family shots, personal memories, etc, it's even worse.


Now, don't get me wrong, I think C&C is very useful for beginners because beginners don't even know what they are looking for/looking at and the C&C is a form of guidance into finding their own way.

Unless, that is, all they want is a slap on the back and a "you're such a great photog."



Someone mentioned a million dollar photo that sucks. I think they meant this one:

The Most Expensive Photograph In The World

It actually sold for 4 1/2 million dollars and is the top seller in the world. I happen to like the photo but I also understand why a lot of people would thing it sucks.



Here's another very high priced one. One I find absolutely ridiculous:

Avertissement de redirection

If I'd shown this here it would have been shot down except for the fact of the subject. Members would have been impressed that I took a photo of the president's family but there is so much wrong with this shot that I would have been ripped a new a**hole. However, this was shot by a very well respected photog so we don't dare say it's a piece of crap.


Welcome to the world of C&C.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm gonna borrow bits and pieces from something I posted earlier which I believe resoundshere. 

The most important question: *Who are you trying to appeal to? *Yourself, or others?

It's fine to disregard the opinions of others in casual personal works. Some people, maybe even you, value others opinions and often those opinions will have patterns and tendencies based on the image you provide for critique. 

I also believe that just like any other art, photography has a substantial number of those who do it poorly and a few who do it extremely well. There are varying degrees of professionalism, as in photography. Who's to judge whether a work shared to the world is done well or poorly? Well who better than the group of forum users on this board? Some who've made a career out of photography, others who are studied and versed enough to be useful to you. Still, some others who won't be useful and do not have the credentials (but you need to filter these people out). These people can see an image and point out its flaws. This is for YOUR benefit. 

The problem is that what YOU consider a "good" image, the common opinion may be to the contrary. You may find your image good just because you "like it" or due to lack of experience. Someday you may look back and see the errors you've made and suddenly understand what you did wrong and how you could've improved. All of the sudden all the negative critique makes sense. 

But the underlying logic here is that with much of art there is almost always going to be a popular opinion on an image. This general opinion is derived from personal tastes, experiences, trial and error of the audience. Obviously the audience here is going to be more critical and anlaytical of your photos than the layman.  So when you say "When a photo you enjoy gets negative CC" what do you do?

It goes back to the big question. *Who are you trying to appeal to? *Yourself, or others? Therein lies your answer .


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## GeorgieGirl (Dec 14, 2011)

OP I think it depends...if the feedback and insight you are receiving is from individuals who are qualified and are among those you trust to care about your future efforts, then take that information and consider it as a means to improve.


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## nickzou (Dec 14, 2011)

I only like negative C&C. Sometimes there's a misunderstand when I ask for clarification or ask for a more indepth comment it comes off as being defensive but that's not how I mean it. I generally need a little more to go on sometimes, vague statements of "oh I don't like how you did this" is useless to me, I'd rather be hearing "this is working, you should do this" that's great advice that's all I want to here. I don't like positive C&C, because first of all, that's not criticism, and second I feel as though if you can't see flaws in my work anymore, you're opinion isn't worth anything to me and I stop respecting you. It was about the time that I noticed in high school where my art teacher, who had been very strict and demanding of me in the first two years finally started to lighten up and give me praise. I looked back on my previous work and my then current work, and the looked at her work and realized she had nothing to offer in terms of tutelage anymore. At which point I basically stopped listening to her. Which is why I love it here, because no one is inclined to give good comments even if they think the work is good, they just find whatever little flaw is in there and focus on that. Which I find immensely helpful and as long as the criticism makes sense to me, you have to be critical of your own work too and think for yourself, I appreciate negative C&C more than just blatant praise.

I had another experience of this through Muay Thai. There was this trainer who was always giving me a hard time but after half a year I noticed how much stronger my kick was and how much better my timing was. At that point I realized, he as a trainer had no more to offer me because I had basically caught up to him to which I eventually just started ignoring his praise and found myself a more advanced fighter to help me out. Trust me, there's nothing more stifling than idle praise. Cut those people loose, I tend not to associate much with people who have in the past given me praise (NEVER TRUST your parents' or spouse's opinions unless they are actually willing to correct you), it does nothing but cloud your judgement and boost your ego.


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## MLeeK (Dec 14, 2011)

Here's the trick with CC: Just because we are pointing out all of the "bad" or what you could have done differently/better/whatever does not make the image a BAD image. CRITICISM is criticizing. The term Constructive Criticism is kind of an oxymoron. It's like black light... You can't learn to do something differently if you are only told the good and wonderful things about the image, so people point out the errors or what could have been different.

I think EVERY image can be criticized and something could have been done differently. Part of that is also the art itself-the photographer is not the criticizing person and each of them have different visions of what their image would be. Just because the original shooter didn't make the decisions I would make when it was shot, he/she may have never thought the way I (or anyone else) does and therefor the differing point of view expands your horizons. Again, it doesn't mean it's a BAD image, it just means there are things that could be done differently and different views. give 20 photographers the same scene and you'll get 20 DIFFERING views of it. 

Now if you get a slew of people who come out and say the image is bad, period? I'd have to admit and scrap it.  There are certain things that I could receive in CC that would make me change my mind-such as "it's so busy I can't tell what the subject is" "It's confusing..." When people aren't seeing the subject for the subject, there's something wrong. 

I am sure there are other things if I heard/read them would also make me scrap an image, but my brain is done thinking for the time being.


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## skieur (Dec 14, 2011)

It depends on some variables. There is a difference between a critique from a newbie versus someone who has seen thousands of images and been taking photos for several decades. There is a difference between a critique that sounds biased against particular content versus one that sounds unbiased with attention to technical and compositional detail.

At the same time talent becomes part of the mix too.  Perceptive comments can come from beginners as well as pros as can less than valuable critique.

Speaking from critique giving experience, the problem photo is one with a number of positive strengths and negative weaknesses. It is difficult to say how many of these strengths and weaknesses would be seen by the average viewer and which way the balance is tipped towards pass or fail. Fortunately we don't see too many of these kinds of photos.

skieur


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## skieur (Dec 14, 2011)

Rotanimod said:


> I'm gonna borrow bits and pieces from something I posted earlier which I believe resoundshere.
> 
> It goes back to the big question. *Who are you trying to appeal to? *Yourself, or others? Therein lies your answer .



Well, I think that most people with a realistically limited ego want affirmation or confirmation from others that they have photographic talent and/or are producing quality work. It is pretty difficult to ignore everyone who says your work is "crap" and produce more of the same because you personally like it. As an amateur you may be able to do it; if you want to be a highly successful pro, it is not possible.

skieur


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## mjhoward (Dec 14, 2011)

Buckster said:


> Words of Wisdom from Ricky Nelson: "You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."



Words of wisdom from Mitch Hedburg: "You can't please all the people all the time and last night all those people were at my show."


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## Sammie_Lou (Dec 14, 2011)

My thoughts are that if you're so dead set that a photo that you've taken is amazing that you're not going to take anyone's C&C into account, what's the point of asking for C&C?? So that you can tell everyone that they're wrong and that your photo is amazing?? Kinda pointless, if you ask me...


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## raphaelaaron (Dec 14, 2011)

the problem with pleasing only yourself can border on grand delusion.

there are a lot of people out there who refuse to listen to criticism on their work, and still believe they are in fact 'talented' photographers. because of that, their own work suffers.
nothing good usually comes out of it, unless he or she actually causes some paradigm shift in creating good photos. however, that isn't as common as one would hope.

but i don't mean to get too philosophical, just putting in the way i see things.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 14, 2011)

Sammie_Lou said:
			
		

> My thoughts are that if you're so dead set that a photo that you've taken is amazing that you're not going to take anyone's C&C into account, what's the point of asking for C&C?? So that you can tell everyone that they're wrong and that your photo is amazing?? Kinda pointless, if you ask me...



Right. But some criticism is just trivial or subjective. And, to be honest, anyone could find something wrong with every single photograph taken, even those taken by professionals. There comes a point to where the criticisms become less constructive, and more like subjective opinion.  I like getting good criticism, but what I've found is that criticism is rarely positive. Most positive comments I get on photos include "great shot!" Even though this is a beginner's forum, sometimes I don't think newbies get enough credit for what they do correctly.

I hope all of this makes sense. I'm typing from an iPhone, and it's hard to collect my thoughts when I'm busy trying to press the right buttons lol.


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## GrantH (Dec 14, 2011)

Start a thread titled "HILARIOUS!" and cry about it? Always funny (no pun intended) how these type of threads gather multiple pages yet a quality conversation about technique or something useful doesn't.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 14, 2011)

My CC process is this: is I try to seek out the negative first to myself and state what I think is wrong with the photo before I post it, so people know I am aware and not someone who is super in love with her photos.. After I post it or them, I post it multiple on photography sites. First I try to distinguish between opinion and fact. Basically I try to listen to more technical advice (ie focus, lighting, distracting background, composition etc) then personal opinion. I take in everyone's CC and try to see if there is a repeating pattern in a critique. If I can I address the problem, I immediatly do. I recently posted up some photos from a parade and I saw potentional in them. I heard they were too dark, and too busy. So I edited them and they look like more presentable photos now, and I have gotten quite a few compliments on them. 
I posted beach photos a few weeks ago, and same thing. 

Now today, I tried photographing an old shed in an abandoned overgrown area. EPIC FAIL!!!! LOL! A few people said that they didn't like the background, but I wanted the background to be busy and overgrown and only like 2 people said that so I wasn't too worried. The other complaint was the sun was shining too much through some trees and was distracting. I was more then willing to fix it and fill in the distracting spots. But the #1 complaint was the shed itself. It is plastic, looks brand new and way too clean so it screwed up the vibe of the photo. I did not get one compliment. So I chalk it up to a photo fail. 

But thanks to CC my super fails are becomming less and less. 

I just don't want to be one of these teen girls on Flickr who just shoots random stuff and blurs or bokehs the background and thinks they are a photographic genius! I want to be a photographer who people can take seriously.

I also seriously agree to never ask family/friends. You will never grow this way. Even if they are willing to be brutally honest, they may not have the knowledge to help you grow.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 14, 2011)

GrantH said:


> Start a thread titled "HILARIOUS!" and cry about it? Always funny (no pun intended) how these type of threads gather multiple pages yet a quality conversation about technique or something useful doesn't.



HAHAHHAHAHA!! Yep that's what I gonna do!!!


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## MLeeK (Dec 14, 2011)

rexbobcat said:


> Sammie_Lou said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




BUT... Like Kieth said that "good shot" is *not positive CC*. It's a positive statement, but it does nothing to help the requesting person grow or learn. 
POSITIVE CC is the pointing out the negative aspects of the image (criticism) AND how they could have been corrected (constructive.) 
It's not simply "your composition is poor." It's more like "your composition is very centered. Try using the rules of good composition to create a better image...." along with providing the rules of composition, blah blah blah. It's CONSTRUCTIVE. It's like getting back a test with the right answers or the methods to get the right answers on the ones you got wrong.


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## MLeeK (Dec 14, 2011)

blackrose89 said:


> My CC process is this: is I try to seek out the negative first to myself and state what I think is wrong with the photo before I post it, so people know I am aware and not someone who is super in love with her photos.. After I post it or them, I post it multiple on photography sites. First I try to distinguish between opinion and fact. Basically I try to listen to more technical advice (ie focus, lighting, distracting background, composition etc) then personal opinion. I take in everyone's CC and try to see if there is a repeating pattern in a critique. If I can I address the problem, I immediatly do. I recently posted up some photos from a parade and I saw potentional in them. I heard they were too dark, and too busy. So I edited them and they look like more presentable photos now, and I have gotten quite a few compliments on them.
> I posted beach photos a few weeks ago, and same thing.
> 
> Now today, I tried photographing an old shed in an abandoned overgrown area. EPIC FAIL!!!! LOL! A few people said that they didn't like the background, but I wanted the background to be busy and overgrown and only like 2 people said that so I wasn't too worried. The other complaint was the sun was shining too much through some trees and was distracting. I was more then willing to fix it and fill in the distracting spots. But the #1 complaint was the shed itself. It is plastic, looks brand new and way too clean so it screwed up the vibe of the photo. I did not get one compliment. So I chalk it up to a photo fail.
> ...


That is awesome!! Just make sure you aren't ONLY looking for patterns. Each bit of insight you get has something that can spark something within you. We each have a different style and those who have something very different from the norm to say sometimes are the very valuable critiques. Sometimes they're just plain garbage too, but make sure you are giving them enough serious consideration to arrive at that garbage conclusion.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 14, 2011)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> BUT... Like Kieth said that "good shot" is not positive CC. It's a positive statement, but it does nothing to help the requesting person grow or learn.
> POSITIVE CC is the pointing out the negative aspects of the image (criticism) AND how they could have been corrected (constructive.)
> It's not simply "your composition is poor." It's more like "your composition is very centered. Try using the rules of good composition to create a better image...." along with providing the rules of composition, blah blah blah. It's CONSTRUCTIVE. It's like getting back a test with the right answers or the methods to get the right answers on the ones you got wrong.



I think I was meaning positive reinforcement. I like getting criticism, but sometimes it seems that new idea can take a great shot even if by luck, and it's more likely to get slammed than if it was posted in he professional forum. Some of the shots in that forum are...um...in my opinion mediocre. But the chances of someone saying that are much lower. I don't know. I'm not trying to sound like I'm complaining or being fussy. I've just been observing the trends and how photographer status sometimes effects how an audience receives the images.

Maybe it's just me. Sorry for the rant. I'm tired tonight. Ha


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## MLeeK (Dec 14, 2011)

You're probably right in that we tend to skip over the good and only go for what we can improve upon. Sometimes it's a time/hurry thing. Most of all I think it's an "understood" thing. If your exposure is good and no one tells you it's bad, do you really need to be told it's good? Not exactly the 'friendliest' approach, but "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is kind of how this works for most giving the critique. 
Many of us TRY to remember to say this is right, good whatever.. that... but when I am hurrying through a bunch of posts and see something smack dab in my face that I can help with I am hurrying up to type what I have to say and move on. KWIM? It's like I said in my previous answer. It doesn't mean your photo is BAD and that's is really important to remember. They are only stressing what you could have done differently. 
Best way to do it? No, probably not. I'd much rather have the negatives pointed out to me by my peers in a place like this. I have my family and friends to blow sunshine and rainbows up my ass all day long. they're there for all of the positive reinforcement I need. THese guys in here can SERIOUSLY help me grow if they rip me apart. 

I also think it's a matter of getting to the mind set. You are new at this and you still need the encouragement that you are on the right road or your photography is good to people other than your friends and family. It's a confidence thing. You'll get over it. I promise. You'll get to where you KNOW it's a good image and don't need to be told that, you need someone to PUSH you to the next level by tearing the hell out of you.


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## blackrose89 (Dec 14, 2011)

I have to say, that I have only been at this for a lil over a month, and I have been on here for a few weeks, and I really feel like I have grown a LOT as a photographer is just this short amount of time. 

I'm a major advocate for CC. Also, when I get a "good" photo compliment, it means a LOT more. 

Just an example of what not disregarding CC can do 

Before CC






















After CC 






















I know there are no award winning images, but they are much stronger since I took in what was said and did not get defensive. Amd hopefully once I get an actual camera, I will stop having this focusing issue. I edited them all myself.

But no amount of CC in the world could save this hunk of junk LOL


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## KmH (Dec 15, 2011)

MLeeK said:


> BUT... Like Kieth said



I am careful to spell your screen name correctly when I use it in a post.

I would appreciate the same consideration when you use my name.

It's Keith, not Kieth.


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## MLeeK (Dec 15, 2011)

Sorry!


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## bazooka (Dec 15, 2011)

This is normal.  I think I'd estimate 95% of my shots are abysmal failures as far as actual photography is concerned.  Maybe 1% I truly enjoy looking at and thinking about... would print and hang.  I reckon those with more experience have a higher success rate, but I doubt it's better than 10%.  Having failure images is how we grow, as long as either we, or someone else, is honest to us and points us in the right direction.


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## Photo Lady (Dec 15, 2011)

i will still love my negative review photo... regardless of what anyone says.. but i will open my eyes and take in as much advice as i can for the next photo i will hopefully love even more.


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## sabbath999 (Dec 15, 2011)

Honestly, I consider the source... If a person has shown themselves to be a good shooter than some random bloke who doesnt show his/her own work but who spends bours a day blabbing about what others are doing.

This is especially true when talking about photos taken on some pretty intense technical dives... I had one lad telling me my lighting was wrong when I was shooting inside of a silty wreck, 43 degree water 120 feet down... Guy didnt even dive. Yeah, I am going to listen to him.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 16, 2011)

MLeeK said:


> You're probably right in that we tend to skip over the good and only go for what we can improve upon. Sometimes it's a time/hurry thing. Most of all I think it's an "understood" thing. If your exposure is good and no one tells you it's bad, do you really need to be told it's good? Not exactly the 'friendliest' approach, but "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is kind of how this works for most giving the critique.



Although I agree that that is often the way we do/look at things here, it is in fact unfortunate. And, yes, I'm guilty of it too. Yes, the more advanced photogs will get that it is an "understood" thing but the newer ones will probably not. I was reminded of this when I started teaching a workshop again recently. The newer photogs don't necessarily know what is good unless you tell them   And in a group situation where everyone looks at things somewhat differently, sometimes you will be saying things for the others in the group rather than the author of the photo.


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