# Elinchrom D-Lite 2's or 4's



## NorthernRMK (Apr 9, 2009)

First time poster, long time reader. I usually find what I'm looking for just by reading, but not this time. I am looking at buying an entry level lighting kit, namely the Elinchrom D-Lite kits, but I am unsure of the power I want/need. My fear is that I buy too much power for my needs and render the lights useless. I would be mainly using these around the house photographing my daughter, and the biggest room I have is about 15'x20'. I do not want to be limited to say F11 a the lowest power setting, I'd like to use the full gamut of power and various aperatures to learn more about lighting and techniques. I would also like to mess around with creating high key photos as they work great for children. Having said all this, I think I am leaning towards the 2's. Thoughts?


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## adamwilliamking (Apr 9, 2009)

Yeah if you want to use the higher apertures than definitely stick with the 2's. 
I have the 4's and they are pretty much useless around the house.


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## Mike_E (Apr 9, 2009)

I'd say to start with a 4 kit and then get a couple of 2's as you can.  Most studio apps today are done with at least 3 lights.

Just starting with one, you are going to need more power because you are going to need to bounce some light off of the reflectors you'll be getting/making.  There are a number of good DIY reflector plans out there.

With the high key look using a single strobe in the middle, hidden behind your subject, to light your background is doable but they have to remain static.  It's easier to have one on either side of the background.  The reason you care is that you need even lighting and still don't want to dump too much light into the room because if you do then your photos will look washed out.  (you are also going to want to get/make some flags to help with spillover light)


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## adamwilliamking (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> I'd say to start with a 4 kit and then get a couple of 2's as you can. Most studio apps today are done with at least 3 lights.
> 
> Just starting with one, you are going to need more power because you are going to need to bounce some light off of the reflectors you'll be getting/making. There are a number of good DIY reflector plans out there.
> 
> With the high key look using a single strobe in the middle, hidden behind your subject, to light your background is doable but they have to remain static. It's easier to have one on either side of the background. The reason you care is that you need even lighting and still don't want to dump too much light into the room because if you do then your photos will look washed out. (you are also going to want to get/make some flags to help with spillover light)


 
Are you taking into account the wattage of the units, size of room, use of aperture? because its not possible with 4's.


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## Mike_E (Apr 9, 2009)

Do they not have a 5 stop range as advertised?  The advertisement I saw gave a range from 25ws to 400ws.  If this is true then you _should_ easily be able to manage them, especially if you're going to drop 2 stops with the softbox.


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## adamwilliamking (Apr 9, 2009)

yeah, if you move furniture in your biggest room you can manage them with little room for background space, but to comfortably use the lights in your home you're going to want the 2's.. to me its like, whats the point in having 5 stops if you can only use the lights at 3.0


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## NorthernRMK (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> Do they not have a 5 stop range as advertised? The advertisement I saw gave a range from 25ws to 400ws. If this is true then you _should_ easily be able to manage them, especially if you're going to drop 2 stops with the softbox.


 
This is basically what I am wondering, is 25ws still too strong for a single (and small) subject in a small room? Is 25ws low enough for low key photographs and larger aperatures? Is 200ws enough for high key photographs and smaller aperatures?

All input is much appreciated.


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## Mike_E (Apr 9, 2009)

25ws is pretty low, like a really weak flash.  And if it's still too strong you can always diffuse it with a gel or some ripstop nylon.  It's a LOT cheaper to eat light than to create it.  IOW you can spend $30 or so for diffuser/NG material and get everything you want or you can buy a smaller light and then have to turn around and buy another light when you need bigger.


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## Don Kondra (Apr 9, 2009)

200 w/s is really limiting.

I say go for the 4's... you can always add a softbox to diffuse the light if necessary and/or move the lights back. 

As an example, this is shot with 2 - B1600 (2 x 640 w/s) on my kitchen table.

The soft boxes are ~ 3' away, one at 1/16, the other at 1/8 power. 12-60mm lens @ 49mm, f10, iso 100, 1/200. 







Cheers, Don


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## JerryPH (Apr 9, 2009)

Is portability important?
Is the ability to light more than 2-3 people important?
--------------

If you are making a studio in your basement and the room is 20 X 20 or smaller, studio strobes are overkill... even the 200 W/s ones.  This is the world of speedlights.

If you want to light groups of people, or one person at apertures over F/8, I would not waste time on the DLite2s, but go straight for the DLtie4's.

If feel that if you cannot use the D4's, then save yourself some serious money and go the speedlight route... because the D2s are only marginally stronger than speedlights and NOT portable to boot.

Have you ever visited the strobist group?  There are people out there that are doing INCREDIBLE photos with one battery powered light source.  This is not the answer for anyone, but I feel that if you are just starting out and do not even know what you want... start with a single speedlight, master that and at the same time, get to know what direction you want to go.  This is where I suggest that you start... 1 speedlight then perhaps a couple more as needs change.  Once they become inadequate or you start shooting large groups of people outdoors, or want to overpower the sun... then start looking at studio strobes.

With a single SB-800 set to 1/2 power and ISO 200, when placed in a 50 inch Apollo softbox (the 50" is an example, you may find it too large to work with in a small room), I am getting F/5.6 and lighting an entire wall from 8 feet away at these apertures.  Place that softbox 3 feet away from the subject, set strobe power to 1/4, and we are still looking at apertures of F/8.  Cut power down to 1/8th and you have about F/4 apertures... all with wonderfully diffused light (and tons of leeway to go up or down on that one speedlight to boot).  

You will find it hard to beat the versatility of speedlights in a small area... and a 20 X 20 foot working area, is pretty small for more than 2 people portraits (well you can start to cram, but you know what I mean).  Anyways, even with a 20 X 20, you will rarely be using all of it, as most people will place the light source 10 feet away or closer to the subject and rarely is the photographer going to be 20 feet away leaned against the back wall with the subject pressed against the front wall... makes for "not the best" versatility in a room.  Most times you will want to lightly blur the background or darken it compared to the subject, and that means placing your subject 8 or more feet away from the rear wall, leaving you about 6-12 feet to work in, and that is ok for 1 person portraits, but a little tight with 2-3 people.


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## adamwilliamking (Apr 9, 2009)

Don Kondra said:


> 200 w/s is really limiting.
> 
> I say go for the 4's... you can always add a softbox to diffuse the light if necessary and/or move the lights back.
> 
> ...


 
Not trying to pick on anyone intentionally but to me it looks like the light wasnt quite soft enough for this shot and imo this looks rather flat


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## Mike_E (Apr 9, 2009)

Just an FYI, I run Metz 60s and 45s with a couple of speedlights for specialty lighting.  The Metz 60 (guide number 60 meters) puts out just over 300ws and I occasionally find myself doubling up when shooting groups.


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## JerryPH (Apr 9, 2009)

adamwilliamking said:


> Are you taking into account the wattage of the units, size of room, use of aperture? because its not possible with 4's.



Sure it's possible... with F/64 apertures, a few (10-20 ND) filters stacked and power set to 1/64th... lol

I love speedlights, but sometimes nothing beats the bigger guns.  My next light purchase is a minimum 1000 W/s head and the vagabond battery unit for portability.  :mrgreen:


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## JerryPH (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> Just an FYI, I run Metz 60s and 45s with a couple of speedlights for specialty lighting.  The Metz 60 (guide number 60 meters) puts out just over 300ws and I occasionally find myself doubling up when shooting groups.



Metz have been around for decades and are a well respected in the market, but they are not exactly priced like the Vivitar 285's... lol

I have a Metz 45 and it does come in handy now and then.  I find that model a little large, though.


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## Don Kondra (Apr 9, 2009)

adamwilliamking said:


> Not trying to pick on anyone intentionally but to me it looks like the light wasnt quite soft enough for this shot and imo this looks rather flat


 
No problem, move the lights back and/or reposition them to suit your taste, pun intended.... 

The *point* was you can turn down "larger" lights, you can't turn up small ones.

Cost wise, a name brand flash is equivalent to a entry level strobe.

Size wize, a flash's footprint, ie. with stand and umbrella, etc. is the same as a strobe.  Yes, the strobe is heavier and longer but it's footprint isn't any different. 

Portability.  A strobe is maybe four pounds and the size of a half gallon of milk.  Yes, you need a plug in or battery pack.

Go for the D-lite 4 kit...

Cheers, Don


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## Mike_E (Apr 9, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> Metz have been around for decades and are a well respected in the market, but they are not exactly priced like the Vivitar 285's... lol
> 
> I have a Metz 45 and it does come in handy now and then.  I find that model a little large, though.


 

Maybe, but they have the best quality light I've ever seen.  Your photos are instant classics (assuming proper exposure and ratios of course  ).


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## JerryPH (Apr 9, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> Your photos are instant classics (assuming proper exposure and ratios of course  ).



Ah, thats why my pics suck... not using the Metz enough... kinda like saying "More Cowbell!"


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## Montana (Apr 9, 2009)

If you want studio lights, go that route.  Speedlights and studio strobes are two totally different beasts.  Each has its place however.  Speedlights are great for their portability and weight.  studio strobes/monolights offer increased control, better accuracy, more power, and a whole range of available modifiers.

Derrick


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## JerryPH (Apr 10, 2009)

Montana said:


> studio strobes/monolights offer increased control


I disagree. My SB-800 goes from 1/1 to 1/128th. Control is not an issue. If more control is desired, increase or decrease space between subject and light source. Not important, IMHO.




Montana said:


> better accuracy


Huh? How so? It cannot be WB control... becuase speedlights are dead-on consistent. I can also mix and match other speedlights from other manufacturers without issues. 

A single setting remains rock steady until you really start to drain the batteries, but that for me happens wa above 400 pictres. I run out of card space before I run out of battery space.



Montana said:


> more power


Yes. 
But if the question is a 200 W/s head vs a $90 Vivitar, you may be surprisd. A Vivitar or a SB-800 are in the 130-150 W/s range at full power. An SB-600 at around 110 W/s range is *less* than 1 stop of brightness away from matching the power of the DLite-2 strobe and that one stop is not a lot... and I can EASILY match the exposure by raising ISO from 100 to 200!  The Vivitar and SB-800s placed side by side with a DLite-2 will show near no exposure differences when both are placed at maximum power. 

However... do you REALLY need maximum power? Well, as mentioned, if you are in a small area like a basement studio, that studio head with mandatory umbrella or softbox will take up more room and not offer any appreciable increase in light quality or amount. A small strobe on a stand has a considerably smalller footprint in comparison.



Montana said:


> and a whole range of available modifiers.


 
Literally... there is no modifier that exists for a studio head that does not exist for a flash head... and if by chance it doesn't exist, one can be made "DIY" for next to nothing. My snoot is a ceral box cut to size and covered with gaffer's tape. My grid spot is a smaller version but filled with black straws. My softbxoes are 28 and 50 inch apollos, my umbrellas are anything from 32 to 60 inch silver or white shoot-through or bounce umbrellas. 

I would not say that these are accurate points, except for the power... which as mentioned in a small area, a 400W/s DLite4 set to minimum is about 75 W/s and would be close to the performance of a speedlight near maximum and require rediculously small apertures in the confines of a basement. You are looking at the biggest apertures possible would be in the F/8 or smaller range. This makes things like bluring the background impossible and if that effect is important to your style (sincerely, it is for me), that limits me more than expands my choices.

So why not go for the 200 W/s lights at that point, wouldn't they work? Yes, and nicely... but the $$ investment for identical performance from a speed light makes them a waste of money, lots of money. Plus you lose portability too. They are not a good value no matter how you look at it... if you look at it from all angles.

I love the big power, I want to purchase some serious power and soon... but I also know that in an area smaller than a 20 X 20, that big light is going to be a hinderance more than a help to your creativity. One cannot get it low enough... unless you make three or four 5 X 7 foot diffusion screens and place them one in front of another... but again, that takes even MORE room in an already tight environment!

I suggest that the OP rent a single 200 W/s head and a 400 W/s head and see for themselves. Test things out and make your decision based on REAL LIFE experience. This is the best suggestion I can offer.  I've shoot with the Profotos, I've shot with the constant hot lightsource and I have shot with the Vivitars and SB's... I know what they do and what works for me.  Nothing beats even a few hours of experience in making an educated decision.   A brick and mortar dealer will even likely let you test both lights out yourelf for a time and find out right then and there (if you do not want to rent 2 lights for a day).


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## rufus5150 (Apr 10, 2009)

> If you are making a studio in your basement and the room is 20 X 20 or smaller, studio strobes are overkill... even the 200 W/s ones. This is the world of speedlights.



I have actually used a speedlight/strobist setup for the last two shoots I've done because it's been convenient (outdoors, away from an outlet) and I agree they can rock in some situations and are more than adequate for small rooms.

But don't discount modeling lights! I loves me some modeling lights, and speedlights, they don't have them. If I had my choice, I'd have my genesis 200's over my speedlights any day, simply because of the modeling lights.

Side note on shooting above f8 -- I have genesis 200's (200w/s) and with a shoot-through umbrella, I can still shoot single subjects at f/13-f/16 with no problem. Should be able to shoot single subjects at f/11 with a softbox unless the softbox is ripping way more light than I think.


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## Mike_E (Apr 10, 2009)

Then there's the little thing of recycling.

1 or 2 seconds for the strobes to 5 or 6 seconds for most flashes.

If you are shooting kids or animals flashes are maddening.  (which is why the big Metzs are worth the money, and the trouble of an external battery pack)


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## JerryPH (Apr 10, 2009)

rufus5150 said:


> ...don't discount modeling lights!


I agree it is convenient, but if one is "brought up" to not rely on them, something interesting happens... one learns to know or see where the light will fall light before you take your first test shot. I never used them much early on and have the ability to set up my lights and be 90% accurate right out of the box. I then make a minor adjustment or 2 after making a test shot. Besides, even with studio strobes, you have to take test shots to verify exposure anyway, why not verify light setup as well at the same time? That is perhaps not everyone's way, it is just another way to skin a cat. 

Convenient? Definitely! Mandatory? I will say no, becuase I feel that this really depends on style, experience and needs of the photorapher. Perhaps to say it is more helpful to the beginner and less so for the more experienced, may be a nice way to put it. It *is* nice to see the effects of a light positional change immediately, though, but there is nothing stopping me from popping off a test shot and seeing the results in my viewfinder.



rufus5150 said:


> Side note on shooting above f8 -- I have genesis 200's (200w/s) and with a shoot-through umbrella, I can still shoot single subjects at f/13-f/16 with no problem. Should be able to shoot single subjects at f/11 with a softbox unless the softbox is ripping way more light than I think.


 
If you were not getting apertures that small, I would be concerned with a nice 200 W/s setup. I can get F/5.6 at 1/2 power from a 50" Apollo at 8 feet. Half that distance and double the aperture needed (F/8). Bring power up from 1/2 to 1/1 and there is your F/16. All at your base ISO, which also is there to give you some extra leeway if needed.  One could also "cheat" and add a 2nd speedlight to give double the light for an extra stop without changing anything.

Also, diffusion layers counts for a lot. If you have a softbox with 3 layers of diffusion material vs 1, that is a nice way to cut things down too. The higher quality softboxes will have the ability to have 2-3 layers and that can cut down light as well as add diffusion. My Apollo softboxes have 1 layer as they are made for weaker speedlights, but it is still a wonderfully diffused and good quality of light.


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## JerryPH (Apr 10, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> Then there's the little thing of recycling. 1 or 2 seconds for the strobes to 5 or 6 seconds for most flashes.


 
Yes, this is pretty true (a little long on the battery recharge timess I get 3 second times from a 1/1 blast from my SB600-800s, the Metz and the Vivitar 285l ). 
However, there are (again) several ways around this.

At 1/2 power or lower, without an external battery pack, I am in the 1-2 second mark between recycle times. Below 1/2 power, have no concerns about popping them off 2 per second all day.

Battery power is a concern, but if you are using decent rechargeables (ie: 2650mah or higher... one can get 2900mah batteries today), you will need to take a break before you need to change batteries.

At 1/2 power, I go 1-1.5 seconds in between recycles on my SB-600. I can easily add a 2nd SB-600 and get the equivalet light of a single SB-600 at full power. If I do something simple like go from ISO 100 to ISO 200 and lower both of the SB-600s to 1/4 power, my exposure remains the same and recycle times are as fast as you will ever need and at 1/4 power, with 2650mah batteries, I get an easy 500+ shots per battery charge. At a strobist event, I have yet to use a 2nd set of batteries and I lend my triggers to others, so that 500 shot per charge really is conservative.

With an external battery pack one could shoot at full power and still get 1 second recharge times. However, speedlights are NOT made for this and you can potentially overheat and burn them out. But at 1/2 power or lower, that speedlight will consistently work at 11 FPS (there is a youtube video showing this), so speed is not an issue anymore. Again, though, I would not want to continually shoot at 11 FPS. 1 shot per second is pretty safe and still often too fast in a real life situation, as most portrait shoots are slower than that simply because it takes time for the model to change position, photographer to change position, aim and focus the camera, from shot to shot. 

Model and photographer style are a big factor. I had a model that could go from pose to pose faster than I could keep up, I had to tell her to slow down... (heck if you pull an austin powers... you blow your wad at 11 FPS... and are then spent in 30 seconds!  )


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## Mike_E (Apr 10, 2009)

LOL  I'm not knocking the strobist method, heck I use it, I'm just saying that for applications where there is power and you don't have to pack your gear in a strobe is hard to beat.  Especially if there is a modeling light involved.  And that goes quadruple if someone is just starting out with lights.

$.02


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## JerryPH (Apr 10, 2009)

Oh I knew you weren't, I wasn't knocking either methods of lighting.
I was just discussing where I agreed with you and where I thought beginners should know certain things that they may not think or know about, so that they could make a more informed choice, either way they wanted.


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## NorthernRMK (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks a lot guys, instead of narrowing my choices, you've increased them, LOL. Actually, since I already have a 430EX, the speedlight may be a good route, though a 580EX II (needed as a master for the 430EX), PC cord, and some light modifiers may not necessarily cheaper. The 580 alone is $600 (CAN of course). Do they make modifiers for flashes, or do you just adapt those for strobes to the flash?


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## 45mphK9 (Apr 14, 2009)

NorthernRMK -- we're in the same boat, I think.  I have been reading through this thread looking for "the answer" and now I'm more undecided then ever!

Here is my situation . . . I have a Canon 50D with the Canon 580II speedlite.  Most of my shoots have been outdoors, so studio lighting hasn't been too important.  Well, I did a lot of sitting around this winter waiting for some decent weather & decided to take over my kids' playroom to make a studio, which happens to be about the referenced 20'x20' room.  My clients are mainly toddlers & kids, so I need to be able to shoot quickly.  

I have a budget of $500 to $600 to spend on lighting & lighting accessories.   Admittedly, I have much to learn about indoor lighting . . .  any advice is appreciated.

BTW . . . I purchased my 580EXii on Amazon.  It was around $425.  Check on Fridays because high priced items are sometimes put on sale.


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## Gumbylives (Dec 31, 2011)

I just would like to say that yes a speedlite has it's advantages for portability. However if you want more creative control over lighting than a monolight is good. It all depends on what you want to achieve. Such as you can buy the most expensive equipment and still not be able to take good photographs if you don't know how to manipulate light. I have looked at strobes vs continuous lighting for several weeks and decided on strobes. Then I narrowed it down to the Elinchrom DLite 4's. Sure you can go for less output with the 2's but at the price point of the 4's, they allow you the opportunity to upgrade should you choose to. I would definitly not choose the cheaper light kits, as you get what you pay for. If you already have speedlites then grab some stands and cheap umbrellas and start there. That way you can and will use the umbrellas later. 
It's kind of like choosing a lens...prime or not.
good luck


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2011)

Gumbylives said:


> I just would like to say that yes a speedlite has it's advantages for portability. However if you want more creative control over lighting than a monolight is good. It all depends on what you want to achieve. Such as you can buy the most expensive equipment and still not be able to take good photographs if you don't know how to manipulate light. I have looked at strobes vs continuous lighting for several weeks and decided on strobes. Then I narrowed it down to the Elinchrom DLite 4's. Sure you can go for less output with the 2's but at the price point of the 4's, they allow you the opportunity to upgrade should you choose to. I would definitly not choose the cheaper light kits, as you get what you pay for. If you already have speedlites then grab some stands and cheap umbrellas and start there. That way you can and will use the umbrellas later.
> It's kind of like choosing a lens...prime or not.
> good luck


You do realize this thread lived and died more than 2 and a half years ago, right?


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