# Dipping my toes in developing.



## Garbz (Apr 18, 2008)

Not literally, I believe developer shouldn't be handled without gloves. But I am looking into starting a basic darkroom to get back into film. Play a bit with some B&W films that are available.

Now I've had a bit of a read on the topic from a book so old it's about to fall apart but I doubt much has changed. I only want to develop negatives at this point, maybe some slides at a later time, and I will ultimately scan them using the filmstrip scanner I have. So far as I know here are the basics that I need:

- A Timer
- A Thermostat
- An insulated dish to control temperature of the chemicals
- A developing tank
- One of those little things to get the end out of the film so the roll can be unwound.
- Developer
- Stop bath (I heard water can be used for this) 
- Fixer

Have I left anything out? I know that the list could be refined to specific brands, but I'm trying to get the overall view of things set first.


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## Overkill-F1 (Apr 19, 2008)

I would suggest 'Photo-Flo' as a final rinse. It helps to minimize waterspots as the film dries. I use a Rubbermaid dish pan half-filled with water to keep the jars of chemicals and the developing tank at the right temperature. I wired in a foot switch to the timer so I can start and stop the timer as required.
...Terry


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## KevinDks (Apr 19, 2008)

I did some b&w developing years ago, but really got back into it last year. I'm not a professional by any means, but here are my suggestions, based on that experience:

- _A Timer_  I  sat with a stopwatch, recorded myself speaking the times - 15 seconds, 30, 45, one minute, etc, for 20 minutes and burned it to CD. I play this on a CD player while developing, so I don't have to look at a timer. I invert the tank a few times every minute, and I find it useful to time it this way

- _A Thermostat_ Do you mean thermometer? You certainly need one - I use a glass thermometer made for b&w developing. 

- _An insulated dish to control temperature of the chemicals_ Before you start developing any films, here is a simple test. Get a plastic bottle, fill it with water and just let it sit in the room you will be working in for a few hours. What temperature does it settle at? I'm lucky that except on very warm summer days, here in temperate Britain my pre-mixed chemicals seem to settle at around 20 degrees, which is just right, but in Brisbane you may face more of a challenge. When necessary I use the plastic washing-up bowl from the kitchen sink, stand it on the draining board and fill it with water at 20 degrees, then put the chemicals and the tank in there (the tank will need to be weighted down, otherwise it will float). If you can keep things to within a couple of degrees of 20 centigrade then you can use the time adjustment chart from the Ilford website to make any corrections needed

- _A developing tank_ Yes, Patterson ones work well

- _One of those little things to get the end out of the film so the roll can be unwound. _You can get a flexible plastic device to pull the end of the film back out of the roll, but there is a risk that any dirt in the felt might scratch the film. I just use a bottle opener, take the metal top off with that and pull the whole roll out

_ - Developer
- Stop bath (I heard water can be used for this) 
- Fixer_

Chemicals - all of those, plus Photoflo or similar to add to the final rinse

Now what else? Er, changing bag (unless you have a completely dark closet or room where you can load the reel and get it into the tank). Scissors, to cut the end of the film off the little plastic thing it is rolled around (remember to put these into the changing bag with the bottle opener, the tank, reel and film before you zip it up!). Pegs to hang the film up (I have a wire coathanger which hooks on the shower rail and I hang the films from that to dry; run the shower for a few minutes first - the steam takes any dust out of the air). Something to stir the chemicals - a plastic spoon or a proper Paterson chemical mixer.

Can't think of anything else! Let us know how you get on.

Kevin


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## kaiy (Apr 19, 2008)

I think you can skip the special tool to retrieve the film end. I also use a bottle opener to pop the end off my 35mm film.

Other misc. items: You will need at least one good measuring graduate (1000ml is a good size).  I have several, so that I don't have to worry about contaminating my developer with something I've measured my fix in.

Avoid cross chemical contamination. Don't use measuring cups, containers, stirrers for your developer that you have used to mix your fix in.

You don't need to spend money on special clips either, clothes pins work fine.


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## Steph (Apr 19, 2008)

I would add a changing back to put the film(s) in the developing tank, unless you have a darkroom of course.

Edit: OK. Already suggested in a previous post....


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## Helen B (Apr 19, 2008)

I use a film end retriever instead of a bottle opener (or simply hitting the end of the cassette - the way I used to do it in the darkroom) so that I can trim the film ends in the light, but it's just a personal choice.

If you use distilled water for the final rinse you may not need a wetting agent. I dry my films on the reel, so I prefer not to use wetting agent (it has a tendency to build up on the reels).

Unless your developing times are very short (less than five minutes or so) you can usually get away with a water rinse between the developer and the fixer.

One thing that has changed over the decades is the use of rapid, non-hardening fixer. That's a lot more common than it used to be. Few films need to be hardened nowadays, and there are benefits to using rapid fixer for film, particularly if you use a neutral or alkaline fixer. It washes out quickly, so that wash methods that use a small amount of water (such as the fill-and-dump routine typified by Ilford's method) can be archivally effective.

As already mentioned Paterson tanks are very popular. I use 1500-series and 2500-series Jobo tanks. The Jobos are very versatile.

Good luck,
Helen


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## Garbz (Apr 19, 2008)

Wow I expected this forum to be half dead, not to get 5 responses in as many hours. Good to see too, it means my questions about what I did wrong will get answered when I foul up my first negative 

Yes a thermometer is what I meant. I will probably use my fluke meter for this (electrical engineer here so no need for these mechanical toys)

Overkill: I'm not sure if your name suggests this but I've read that using a simple sponge will eliminate waterspots after the final rinse. But I will keep the Photo-flo in consideration. 

I intend to start small and cheap and work my way through problems rather than layout a lot of money. And on that note a bottle opener sounds good 

Ok so I think I got a list of the basics. I'll start narrowing down what I need exactly and see about making a trip to photocontinental later this week.

Cheers


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## JamesD (Apr 19, 2008)

With a sponge, you'll tend to get water beading up on the surface of the film, then drying to form spots.  You can wipe it again, but the sponge should be damp, which will tend to deposit more water/prevent absorbtion.  Using a dry sponge is a Bad Idea. Also, excessive handling of wet emulsions isn't recommended.  Photoflo will help the water to run off.  Something about surface tension, I believe.


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## ann (Apr 19, 2008)

go to ilford's website and check out their pdf files, they have speicfic ddirections and a list of equipment you will need.

the first roll is always the hardest, but only with getting it on the reel. other than that, it is a matter of followiong the directions and clock watching.

have fun


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## nealjpage (Apr 19, 2008)

I don't use a water bath to control my temps unless I'm doing color processing.  68 degrees F is pretty low and keeping your tank at that temp is pretty easy, unless of course your house is like mine and very cold.  But even then I still don't use a water bath.


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## christopher walrath (Apr 19, 2008)

The following is a basic list of items needed to process black and white negative roll film.  This list is based on my gear and you may find items that you do not need as well as find that you may have a need for items not listed herein.

                Developer stock solution (needs to be mixed) or &#8230;
                Developer working solution (ready to be used)
                Stop bath stock solution
                Fixing agent stock solution
                3- gallon jugs (for storage of working solutions of chemicals)
                3 or more 8-ounce glass amber bottles (for storage of stock solutions of chemicals)
                Film drying agent (for shortening drying time)
                A practice roll of film (to practice loading film into the developing tank)
                16-ounce lightproof developing tank (available in either stainless steel or plastic)
1-120 roll film developing reel
2-35mm roll film developing reel
A pair of scissors
A can opener
A 32-ounce graduated measuring cup
A 250 mL graduated cylindrical measure
2-graduated measure syringes
A plastic funnel
3-16-ounce containers (to hold chemicals for processing)
Instant dial thermometer (for regulating water temperature)
30 or 60-minute timer that measures in seconds and minutes
Wire or string (for hanging film to dry)
Stainless steel hanging clips or wooden clothespins (for hanging and holding film straight)
Negative archival storage sheets


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## Garbz (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks all. Looks like I can find most of that stuff around my house and will need to spend minimal amounts to get me started.

Staying in the same thread but changing the topic:

Can anyone recommend a good film or process to start with? I will eventually work my way up to colour processing E-6 and similar so I can do Velvia slides without shipping them to Sydney, but so far I am looking for something simple as my first try.

I was thinking Kodak TMAX but the price of the developer is discouraging. 

Just to double check you need film (process) specific developer and fixer right?


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## Helen B (Apr 21, 2008)

There are many, many combinations of film and developer - you don't have to stick to TMax developer for TMax film, for example.

There are many good all-round developers. In general those sold in powder form are cheaper than those sold as a liquid concentrate. The ones sold as liquid concentrate are easier to use, but powder developers aren't difficult to use.

There are many developers, so these are the first ones that come to mind:

Kodak D-76 or Ilford ID-11. Easy to use, general purpose powder developers. Work well with many films.

Kodak Xtol. One of the better developers available today. Powder. Works well with many films. The new TMax 400 (TMY-2) is remarkable in Xtol.

Ilford DD-X. A good liquid concentrate developer. Easy to use, good results. Not cheap.

Diafine. A powder developer that is very easy to use and very economical. It may be hard to get. It is a two-bath developer that lasts forever. Excellent with Tri-X at EI 1250; TMax 100 and Fuji Acros at EI 125.

Kodak HC-110. Another general purpose developer. Highly concentrated, economical liquid.

As for film, the likes of HP5+, FP4+ and Tri-X are all easy to use. The tabular grain films like TMax and Delta have a reputation of being more finicky to process, but I don't think that is a big issue.

Good luck,
Helen


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## Jeff Canes (Apr 21, 2008)

did any one say a changing bag


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## Helen B (Apr 22, 2008)

Jeff Canes said:


> did any one say a changing bag



Kevin in post #3 and Steph in post #5, otherwise I would have mentioned it - it was the first thought I had when I read Garbz' original list.

Best,
Helen


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## Garbz (Apr 22, 2008)

Changing bad won't be a problem. I am too busy to develop during the day anyway and light isn't an issue at night. I'm pretty confident I can thread the reel without fogging.

Helen thanks for that. I think I'll start with Kodak D-76 I can get that for $8 and see if my darkroom leads anywhere and work from there.

I was under the impression that developers were film specific but it looks like they are only process specific (correct?).

Anyway with regards to fixing agents it looks like the local photo store stocks all the various kodak developers, hypo cleaning agents, drying aids, but none of the fixers. I'll probably be buying an Ilford Hypam fixer at this point, unless someone can suggest a good reason not to.

Thankyou all for the help so far


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## terri (Apr 22, 2008)

> I was under the impression that developers were film specific but it looks like they are only process specific (correct?).


This chart will give you general recommended times and temperatures for so many film/developer combinations, it will keep you busy for the next 20 years.  Use the drop-down windows on the left side column. 

You'll have it bookmarked in no time for fast & easy recommendations to help you get started. Experience will be your best teacher, but should you end up with something at home you think is an "odd" combination, this is an excellent guide.


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## Christie Photo (Apr 22, 2008)

I presume you know you'll need spool(s) with the tank.

I always used a squeegee dipped in Photo Flo solution when hanging film to dry.

I don't think anyone mentioned an archival wash (hypo clearing agent)...  not only to reduce wash time, but to extend the life of my negatives.

Have fun!

-Pete


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## Garbz (Apr 22, 2008)

Christie Photo said:


> I presume you know you'll need spool(s) with the tank.



Yep I did get that far 

If I start doing this seriously I may look into the Hypo cleaning agents, but for now I will use water as my stop bath, and water to clean off the fixer.

Terri: Wow thanks!


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## Helen B (Apr 22, 2008)

Hypam is fine.

If you are using rapid fix (ammonium thiosulphate based) there's no real need for hypo clearing agents with film, even if you are selenium toning it for ultimate possible archival life (acetate-based film cannot be given the highest archival _rating_ of 500 years no matter how it is processed). Water is fine. There are two classes: hypo clearing agents and hypo eliminators. The naming can be confused. Agents that totally eliminate the fixer are not generally recommended for archival use. Agents that help the hypo to wash out (clearing agents, wash aids) are OK, but are not necessary if correct washing procedures are used. It is _much more important_ to make sure that your fixer isn't near exhaustion - 'exhausted' fixer leaves complex compounds in the film that are hard to wash out. If you use a two-bath fixer you can extend the life of your fixer and ensure easy fixer removal. That is a technique that has been practiced for that reason since the end of the 19th century.

Modern (ie at least fifty year-old) fill-and-dump washing is very efficient and uses little water.

You can use C-41 developer for B&W film - in fact the films that have a high contrast naturally, like Tech Pan, do very well in C-41 developer.

C-41 and E-6 are much more specific than B&W processes. If you use different developers you will get non-standard results. This may or may not be what you want.

You can use C-41 fixer for B&W *as long as it isn't a bleach-fix. *C-41 fix is usually neutral, and this is a good thing in many ways. Alkaline and neutral fixers wash out more easily than acid fixers, but it's no big deal for film. Neutral fixers have the least smell, in general.

Water is fine as a stop bath most of the time. The important thing is consistency in method and timing. If you refine your developing times and method to get the results you want you will allow for any slight development that may continue in the water wash.

If you do a final rinse in distilled water, you may find that you do not need a wetting agent. I don't use wetting agent - I just rinse in distilled water (which gets re-used a few times) then shake the water off the reel as hard as I can before drying the film. I do not get drying marks.

Good luck,
Helen


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## christopher walrath (Apr 22, 2008)

Loading film onto the developing reel must be done in complete darkness. This is the proper way to load film. First you need to separate the film from its spool. 35mm film is in a canister. Take a common can opener and gently pry the flat end of the canister off and pull the film free. Unroll it in your hand being careful not to touch the flat surface of the emulsion more than absolutely necessary until you reach the inside edge of the film. With your scissors, cut the film from the spool squarely. With 120-roll film, unroll the paper backing until you feel the edge of the film with you fingertips. Then while unrolling the film you will need to separate the film from the paper backing, keeping the film in your hand, again careful not to excessively handle the flat faces of the film itself. When the film is completely unraveled you will find it is held to the backing with a piece of tape. First remove the tape from the paper backing and discard it. Then remove the tape from the film ever so gently as not to bend the film.
     Next hold the film between your thumb and index finger in one hand and take the developing reel in the other. Feed the edge of the film into the clip located in the center of the reel. Once secure and centered, start rolling the reel away from the film while applying slight pressure between the thumb and finger so as to bow the film slightly allowing for ease of loading. Be sure to check for slack in the loaded film every half of a turn or so. If you can slide the film in and out about a quarter of an inch freely then it is loading properly and you may continue. If the film won&#8217;t budge and is tight then it has likely skipped a track in the spool and you need to unroll the film back to the point where it is loaded improperly and correct the problem. You may then continue. When you get to the end of the film make certain that the film edge is centered so that it does not rest against the inner loop. This will not create bad negatives on the inner loop but will prevent some of the silver from being washed away during fixing and require additional time for this phase and a re-rinsing of the film. Then you must gently place the reel into the tank and seal the lid. At this point you may now turn the lights on and leave them on for the duration of the procedure.
     Now it is time to prepare the chemicals. Follow your manufacturer&#8217;s recommendations for mixing processing chemicals and remember to do so in a well-ventilated area and to use protective wear at all times. Ideally you might employ protective goggles, a rubber apron, rubber gloves and shoes with slip free soles. If working with stock solutions you will now be mixing 16 ounces worth of each chemical for use in your 16-ounce developing tank. If you are using working solutions then all you need do is mix them solutions by inverting the containers a couple of times and then measuring out 16 ounces of each for your use. Most chemicals may be reused and will either change consistency or color to indicate that their usefulness has expired. Again, refer to your manufacturer&#8217;s literature as to such indicators. Once your chemicals are ready and the film is loaded it is time to get your gear ready for the actual processing.
     Line your chemicals up in order of use. I always find it useful to have a list of chemicals in order of use and the duration handy in a largely printed list for easy reference. Get out your timer and set it to zero. Get your water running and give it a couple of minutes to be sure that the temperature is steady at the normal processing temperature of 68 degrees. I find that the best thing to do is to fill the tank with your liquid, place the cap on the tank and THEN start the timer. For this example we will use my personal processing of Kodak TMax TMX-120 roll film that employs Kodak HC110 developer mixed to a working solution of &#8216;Dilution B&#8217;, Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, Kodafix fixing agent and Kodak Photo-Flo drying agent.
     The first stage I use is optional. I use a water presoak to bring the film and tank and reel(s) closer to processing temperature. Other photographers think that a water presoak can prevent developer from getting into the film as quickly as it should, however I have never had a problem with under developed negatives as a result of using the water presoak. I fill the tank (holding it close to the edge of the basin and at a slight angle so that if an air bubble forms in the fill hole I can readily rap it against the edge of the basin to dislodge it), place the cap and then start the timer. I agitate throughout the presoaking stage and leave the water in the tank for one minute. Agitating is the act of inverting and then reverting the tank to get fresh liquid across the entire surface of the film. Except during continuous agitation, two or three sharp raps of the tank on your counter or working surface should be done to dislodge any air bubbles that might be adhering to the surface of the film due to the agitation.
     When the timer gets to one minute turn it off, take off the cap and pour out the water. It might appear to be grayish at this point but that is OK. It is the water having been stained by the film.
     Now empty the bottle containing the developer into the tank. Replace the cap and restart the timer. For developing TMax in HC110 Dil.-&#8216;B&#8217; the required developing time is six minutes. For the first thirty seconds constant agitation is required (roughly ten gentle agitations). When agitation is complete rap the tank twice and set it down. For the remainder of the developing stage agitate the tank twice after every thirty seconds. Agitate one last time just before reaching the end of the time allotted for the development stage. When the developing stage is complete turn the timer off, take off the cap and drain the developer from the tank.
     Now take the bottle holding the stop bath and empty it into the tank, replace the cap and start the timer. Most black and white negative film processes call for a stop bath phase in duration of thirty seconds only. So agitate the tank once, rap it and set it down. After the thirty seconds stop the timer, remove the cap and drain the stop bath from the tank.
     Now take the bottle containing the fixing agent and empty it into the tank. Replace the cap and start the timer. Fixing is required for roughly twice the amount of time it takes the film to clear, meaning for all colored material to be rinsed from the film. After two and a half minutes you can remove the cap and inspect the film to see if it is clear, if so then double your time for the fixing stage. If there is still some blue residue on the film then more fixing is required to remove it. I have found that in my process that the film is clear between two and a half minutes and three minutes so I fix for five and a half minutes. Excessive fixing can bleach the film but if you keep the times relatively short then you should have nothing to worry about. Agitate occasionally during the fixing phase, perhaps once every twenty to thirty seconds or so. When the fixing stage is done the turn off the timer, remove the cap and pour out the fixer.
     Now we need to rinse the chemical residue from the film in water. I use the 5-10-20 method and the best way to describe it. Fill the tank with 68 degree water. Replace the lid. Agitate the tank five times and drain the water. Refill and agitate the tank 10 times. Drain, refill and agitate the tank twenty times. Drain the tank.
You&#8217;re done. No further stages are required. I, however, use Photo-Flo to speed up the drying time. You could also use a drop or two of regular dishwashing soap. Take the whole cap off, fill the tank slowly pouring a few drops of the drying agent into it. It will sud up. Put the cap on, start the timer and agitate it continuously for one minute. Then rinse the solution from the film.
     Now remove the film from the reel and hang it from the clip on your string or wire and place another clip on the bottom of the film to prevent it from curling up or swinging into another object or hanging roll of film. Do not forget to THOROUGHLY rinse your workstation and equipment to remove all chemicals and allow anything that is wet ample space and time to dry. With moving air my film is ready to be cut and stored within an hour.
     So as not to put your film to undue risk of being ruined I would like to advocate a practice run or two through your processing sequence. My first roll had one loop of film touching another and thus prevented a small amount of the film from being processed. As simple and straightforward as this process is there is absolutely no reason why a photographer who has practiced and is sure of their procedure should achieve results other than perfection. No reason whatever.


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## Helen B (Apr 22, 2008)

Well, that's good and comprehensive. Some minor comments, and D-76/Hypam specific variations:

_"First you need to separate the film from its spool. 35mm film is in a canister. Take a common can opener and gently pry the flat end of the canister off and pull the film free."_ 

You can also load the film onto the reel directly from the cassette.

_"Feed the edge of the film into the clip located in the center of the reel."_

This does not apply to most plastic reels. They are loaded from the outside in rather than the inside out.

_"Most chemicals may be reused and will either change consistency or color to indicate that their usefulness has expired."_

I'm not sure about that. You can't tell how exhausted developer or fixer is by its colour or consistency. If you re-use developer you should just follow the manufacturer's guidelines for increasing development times or replenishing. Overall, I'd recommend using dilute developer when starting out, unless you are using a two-bath such as Diafine. D-76, which Garbz has chosen can be used once and discarded when diluted 1+1.  

Fixer exhaustion can be calculated from the manufacturer's recommended capacity or by measuring the clearing time of dry film. When the clearing time has doubled, discard it. This test is marginally acceptable for archival purposes when a single bath fixer is used, but is OK when two bath fixer is used.

_"Fixing is required for roughly twice the amount of time it takes the film to clear,..."_

You can get a good estimate of clearing time by dipping the leader of 35 mm film into the fixer, in the light. For a rapid fixer like Hypam the clearing time should be well under a minute when fresh. Some films, like TMax, have more silver iodide than others, and silver iodide is hard to fix out, so for TMax you can triple the clearing time. I never fix for less than 2 minutes in total. Excessive fixing is rarely a problem.

Best,
Helen


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## Early (Apr 26, 2008)

Garbz said:


> If I start doing this seriously I may look into the Hypo cleaning agents, but for now I will use water as my stop bath, and water to clean off the fixer.


Acetic acid is dirt cheap, it's a short step, you can use it more than once, and it stops development on a dime.


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## Garbz (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm starting with Holga film anyway so initially minor development issues won't be a problem ;-)

I plan to start this on Tuesday. Thank you all especially Helen and Chris for your help. I'll re-read this entire thread and make up a shopping list tomorrow night


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## Garbz (Apr 29, 2008)

Ok I bought Kodak D-76 powder. Illford Rapid Fixer (only one they had in stock), and an AP Classic tank with adjustable spool to take both 2x35 or 1x120 or other combinations of film I will never use.

Practised winding the reel already. Now I just got to fire off 12 frames on the holga and I look forward to posting my results on the weekend.

Thanks again!


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## slapshot (Jul 16, 2008)

As a newbie on these forums I'm still, "checkin' things out". Slipping into the red light of the darkroom and reading these threads has got my heart racing. My darkroom has been in storage for too many years. Unfortunately, I now live in an area where darkroom supplies are not readily available (NO...it's NOT jail!) and as a result I've switched to digital.

HOWEVER, reading these threads I can smell the chemicals! (In my best Austin Powers) "Ohhh yeah, baybee!"


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## compur (Jul 16, 2008)

Garbz said:


> Changing bad won't be a problem. I am too busy to develop during the day anyway and light isn't an issue at night. I'm pretty confident I can thread the reel without fogging.



You know that it has to be done in total darkness, right?


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## christopher walrath (Jul 17, 2008)

He might be like me.  If I dev later at night after the kiddies are in bed, I have the lights out downstairs anyway so I don't have to worry about lightproofing the downstairs half bath.


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## Garbz (Jul 20, 2008)

compur said:


> You know that it has to be done in total darkness, right?



Is this a trick question?


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## compur (Jul 20, 2008)

No, but I'm sure we will know the answer soon enough.


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