# is anyone willing to share their appointment contract?



## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

I am trying to figure out what to include in mine and I was wondering if anyone is willing to share theirs?

and what do you call them?  Im sure adding the word contract will scare some people away that are afraid to sign things.  Usually when you hear the word contract its many many pages of confusing talk.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 28, 2012)

Google has a trillion samples


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

Contracts don't scare people unless your prepared to act on them. And with every other fauxtographer on the street having a 'contract and model release', people have become accustomed to signing them. I highly suggest you speak to a lawyer and have them draft a contract that is customized to you and your business.


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

I dont want to pay a lawyer $1000 for something that wont add any additional income to each portrait.  I dont think these appointment contracts are necessary legally for non weddings or non commercial work but they help explain to the customer what to expect, and spell out that if they dont show up to an appointment there is either a fee or forfeiture of the appointment retainer.

So thanks for the advice to seak a laywer but I would have done that in the first place if I wanted to waste money.  

Is anyone willing to share their appointment contract, and what is it usually called?


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> I dont want to pay a lawyer $1000 for something that wont add any additional income to each portrait.  I dont think these appointment contracts are necessary legally for non weddings or non commercial work but they help explain to the customer what to expect, and spell out that if they dont show up to an appointment there is either a fee or forfeiture of the appointment retainer.
> 
> So thanks for the advice to seak a laywer but I would have done that in the first place if I wanted to waste money.
> 
> Is anyone willing to share their appointment contract, and what is it usually called?





Another one. Why don't you people learn?

If you're not going to do it right, why even bother? Because when you get sued for one reason or another, that $1000 is going to look like chump change considering the settlement the plaintiff will get out of you.


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

can you give an example of why a regular photographer would get sued?  Not a wedding one or commercial one, just regular senior and family portraits.  Worst case that I can think of is they pay your sitting fee if you charge a sitting fee, you do the portrait, and they dont like the pictures.  Worst case they go after you for the sitting fee which falls into small claims courts.  if someone were to get hurt during a portrait, thats what liability insurance is for.

please educate me.


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

I forgot to mention that good customer service can also keep you out of trouble, trying to work things out before they get bad.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> can you give an example of why a regular photographer would get sued?




Yes.

You schedule an appointment for a Friday afternoon for mommy's little senior. Three weeks later mommy calls you and says that "poor wittle senior has to work" and cancels the appointment. You give the appointment to another client who also wanted that day. Thursday comes and mommy calls to say that "oh wittle senior doesn't have work anymore" and she'd like her appointment back. You employ your customer service skills and politely tell her that you do not have any time, and because she previously canceled, her appointment time has been filled and you'd be happy to reschedule for a later date. Mommy isn't happy about that, and she failed to tell you that graduation is in two weeks and she needs pictures yesterday. On top of that, you're refusing to give her "retainter fee" back because, after all, she signed your google found contract, and now she's too pissed to reschedule with you. And before you know it, its Tuesday and you have a constable knocking on your door serving you a lawsuit for civil court.

Stranger things have happened. Need I go on?


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

again that would be small claims court and with a signed contract that explains everyones intention I believe the case would be thrown out of court.  the judges dont like to have their time wasted.  there is a huge paranoia about being sued when the stats for such things appear to be extremely small.  the few crazy ones that get through get the news.

since you seem very knowledgeable on this, how many of these types of cases make it through each year, what % are successful, and what is the average payout?

thanks for the education.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah. So you're a judge and a photographer?


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

so your saying you dont know the answer to my questions?


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Ah. So you're a judge and a photographer?



And you seem to be the expert at everything these days. God forbid if anyone has an idea different than yours.
How has the world survived without you?


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## cgipson1 (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> I dont want to pay a lawyer $1000 for something that wont add any additional income to each portrait.  I dont think these appointment contracts are necessary legally for non weddings or non commercial work but they help explain to the customer what to expect, and spell out that if they dont show up to an appointment there is either a fee or forfeiture of the appointment retainer.
> 
> So thanks for the advice to seak a laywer but I would have done that in the first place if I wanted to waste money.
> 
> Is anyone willing to share their appointment contract, and what is it usually called?



The first time you get sued because your contract didn't cover you... you might be wishing you had gotten a lawyer!


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

hence the purpose of this thread, to find a good contract.    why is it so hard to get advice these days?  

HGW, apparently hes a lawyer due to his extensive legal wisdom.  

there is a lot of fear mongering in the states and paranoia, but from what ive heard thats all it is, the actual numbers are quite small and the real winner are the laywers.  thats why there are so many of them over here.


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## cgipson1 (Aug 28, 2012)

It may be due to the fact that anyone with a good contract... probably paid a lawyer to draw that up for them! 

And sharing that for free to someone not willing to make the same investment in their business may not seem to be the best practice!


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> And you seem to be the expert at everything these days. God forbid if anyone has an idea different than yours.
> How has the world survived without you?




I know you're fishing for an argument because I've apparently ruffled your bunny fur, but all I did was suggest he talk to a lawyer to cover his ass properly. Instead he wants to ride someone else's coat tails and use a contract that someone else probably paid a lawyer of their own good money for. Beyond that, I know plenty of people who have had to employ lawyers because of threatened lawsuits, one of which is my former studio partner. People are stupid, and those people are clients, and if you dont think that non-wedding photographers get sued your kidding yourself. If you're going to have a business, and represent yourself as a professional business, then be professional and do things the right way.


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## Superfitz (Aug 28, 2012)

To simply answer your question, I believe the answer is no. Maybe someone will contact you through pm.


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## pixmedic (Aug 28, 2012)

this could apply to any kind of photography where the client is displeased with the results. 
it isn't contract related, i know, but it DOES show that judges can and do award damages for
photography related suits. and more than just a few dollars. 
contracts are just another aspect of the photography business, and like the other business parts, should be done correctly in order to cover yourself legally should anything go bad.


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

Perhaps the question should be "what is the name of the book laywers use to draft up contracts".  they just grab a page and change a few names and print it off and charge an arm and a leg.  I wonder if I can find the name of that book, hmm.


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## Superfitz (Aug 28, 2012)

pixmedic said:
			
		

> YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lz-07D5KoE
> 
> this could apply to any kind of photography where the client is displeased with the results.
> it isn't contract related, i know, but it DOES show that judges can and do award damages for
> ...



Not really a good example since all judgments are paid for by the production company, and the planting/defendant are paid to be there.

Edit: the word planting should be plaintiff.


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## pixmedic (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> Perhaps the question should be "what is the name of the book laywers use to draft up contracts".  they just grab a page and change a few names and print it off and charge an arm and a leg.  I wonder if I can find the name of that book, hmm.



plenty of people use generic contracts. you can easily google them and fine one that works for your needs with some minor tweaking. 
I don't know of any sites off hand, but i will try and look up a few when i get back home and post the results if some haven't been already by then. 
just be careful with them if you aren't sure of any terminology that they use, or what that terminology actually means in court. if you have any questions about a contract you find, im sure you can have a lawyer at least look it over fairly cheap and point you in the right direction.


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

I have been in the rental propery business for over 30 years and have used hundreds of rental agreements purchased from my local office supply store without issue, as probably most landlords do. These "form" contracts have held up in court on several occassions. There is no need to pay an attorney to draft a Rental / Lease Agreement for you when it is identical to one that you can purchase in a pad of 25 $19.95. A Model Release or any other type of standard contract would be the same. Unless you need something specifically written for a non-standard situation and standard generic contract has served me well.


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > And you seem to be the expert at everything these days. God forbid if anyone has an idea different than yours.
> ...



I am certainly not "fishing for an argument", but, believe it or not, you may not be the know all of everything. In addition, I AM a professional and do use generic contracts all the time and have served me well, thank you very much.


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> hence the purpose of this thread, to find a good contract.  why is it so hard to get advice these days?
> 
> You get what you pay for. For the cost of your time spent arguing with them, you probably could have saved money by consulting with an actual lawyer. JMOP


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 28, 2012)

Lawyer??? Why lawyer up?  

Everyone on the Internet (chat rooms and forums) can provide expert legal advice


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

Do you not think that the standard form contracts were not written by lawyers?


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> I dont want to pay a lawyer $1000 for something that wont add any additional income to each portrait. I dont think these appointment contracts are necessary legally for non weddings or non commercial work but they help explain to the customer what to expect, and spell out that if they dont show up to an appointment there is either a fee or forfeiture of the appointment retainer.
> 
> So thanks for the advice to seak a laywer but I would have done that in the first place if I wanted to waste money.
> 
> Is anyone willing to share their appointment contract, and what is it usually called?


Congratulations.  You have reached the top spot on the leaderboard for the most ridiculous statement made on TPF.  

There's no point in sharing my contracts with you since you're in a different country and different rules apply, but try this.  Spend a day with Mr. Google; research photographic contracts, releases and rights usage licenses.  Look at examples; pick out the bits that you like, disgard the bits you don't.  Put together draft documents, take those to a lawyer and have him review them and make recommendations for corrections.  Shouldn't take more than one hour, and cost less than $400.  If you think that's too much to keep you from being sued and dragged through court, well, there's no helping you.  People can and will sue for anything and the US has the reputation of being just about the most litigious country in the world.  Even if you win the case, you've lost time and money...  I know where my priorities lie...


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## jamesbjenkins (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:
			
		

> again that would be small claims court and with a signed contract that explains everyones intention I believe the case would be thrown out of court.  the judges dont like to have their time wasted.  there is a huge paranoia about being sued when the stats for such things appear to be extremely small.  the few crazy ones that get through get the news.
> 
> since you seem very knowledgeable on this, how many of these types of cases make it through each year, what % are successful, and what is the average payout?
> 
> thanks for the education.



I don't think you understand, and the levity in your response indicates a complete lack of appreciation for the liability you're assuming. If you don't have a contract that a lawyer has at least looked at, and if you don't have liability insurance, you have no business accepting paid clients. If you choose to accept paid clients without those safeguards in place, you're inviting ruin.

I seriously don't understand what's so hard for you gungho rookies to understand about this. You're going to pay many times over what a lawyer and insurance will cost you the first time some idiot client decides to sue.

Whether you win or lose, you have to defend yourself. That ain't cheap.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 28, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Lawyer??? Why lawyer up?
> 
> Everyone on the Internet (chat rooms and forums) can provide expert legal advice





HughGuessWho said:


> Do you not think that the standard form contracts were not written by lawyers?



Sarcasm is contained within my post of course


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## Christie Photo (Aug 28, 2012)

I just started my 30th year on the first of this month.  

Over the years, the ONLY contracts I've ever used were for school photos.  You know, where I outline all the free stuff the school gets, how long delivery will take, and so on.  Really, these sort of things are more "bids" than contracts.  Same with commercial work;  I'm occasionally asked for a quote before starting a job, especially with a brand new client.

As for portraits...  seniors, families, etc., I've had no need for contracts.  I do have a price list that outlines everything I deliver and how much I charge.  On that, I state some general info:

-Session fee is to be paid at the time of the session.
-Price of session is in addition to the price of packages or prints.
-Package prices are for one pose only unless specified.  Add a pose to any package for just $30.00.
-A payment of 50% is required when placing any order.
-The balance is due when the order is completed.
-We will not be responsible for orders left over 30 days.
-If paper previews are ordered, a non-refundable deposit of $100.00 is required when taking previews from our
studio. This deposit will be applied to your order.

Beyond that, no contracts.   No signing by me or the client.

Good luck!

-Pete


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## Christie Photo (Aug 28, 2012)

Oh shoot.  I forgot weddings.  Yeah...  need a contract there.  I no longer take on weddings, but I would not leave the studio without a signed contract.

One more thought about portraiture:  I believe a bit of over-thinking (or self-aggrandizing) is going on.  I don't see how this is much different than going into a nice restaurant.  I'm given a menu and I place my order.  No signing of contracts.

-Pete


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

Christie Photo said:


> I just started my 30th year on the first of this month.
> 
> Over the years, the ONLY contracts I've ever used were for school photos.  You know, where I outline all the free stuff the school gets, how long delivery will take, and so on.  Really, these sort of things are more "bids" than contracts.  Same with commercial work;  I'm occasionally asked for a quote before starting a job, especially with a brand new client.
> 
> ...



Thanks!  Just what I am looking for.  



Christie Photo said:


> Oh shoot.  I forgot weddings.  Yeah...  need a contract there.  I no longer take on weddings, but I would not leave the studio without a signed contract.
> 
> One more thought about portraiture:  I believe a bit of over-thinking (or self-aggrandizing) is going on.  I don't see how this is much different than going into a nice restaurant.  I'm given a menu and I place my order.  No signing of contracts.
> 
> -Pete



I was going to make a similar comment, but yours works better since yours is service related.

Then again mcdonalds has been sued for serving hot coffee and people spilling it on themselves tried to sue them.  Perhaps I should put sticker on my picture folders that I deliver "pictures might be to hot"?  jk.  

Superfitz, thanks for the info!  

Oh and I do use google, but you get a ton of garbage with a few good things, so I thought I would try here "as well".


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## GerryDavid (Aug 28, 2012)

on a related topic:

how do you get the contracts signed and back to you before the portrait in a timely manner?  Im rarely at the studio since most of my work is on location.  I pass by the studio at least once a week so I can get the mail but not very fast.  I have horrible past experience with people mailing things to me.  In the past when I tried to get an appointment retainer 99% say it will be in the mail and they never do.  Or when they mail the final payment it takes them 3 months to actually mail it.  I now take post dated checks to avoid that.

I just signed up for a credit card service so I can take appointment retainers by phone but there is still the signing of the contract.  If it wasnt for the non refundable retainer I would just email it to them and have them bring it to the appointment.

Also doing everything by mail means you cant book something within a few days due to the mail delay, so opportunities missed there.

For those of you that are not at a studio often or do not have a studio, how do you handle this? 

If everyone had a scanner that would be a solution but not everyone does and those that do a good % is probably not competent enough to do it.


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## jamesbjenkins (Aug 28, 2012)

And, you continue on...completely ignoring those of us waving the "danger!" signs.

Go ahead and drive your car right off that cliff you're headed for.


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## pixmedic (Aug 28, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> And, you continue on...completely ignoring those of us waving the "danger!" signs.
> 
> Go ahead and drive your car right off that cliff you're headed for.




heh..I envision little lemmings with cameras...Lemming photographers going right over the edge!


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2012)

GerryDavid said:


> ...how do you get the contracts signed and back to you before the portrait in a timely manner?


 You meet with the client at a pre-session meeting to discuss the clients requirements; this is when you discuss locations, poses, clothing choices, desired products, etc.



GerryDavid said:


> I have horrible past experience with people mailing things to me. In the past when I tried to get an appointment retainer 99% say it will be in the mail and they never do. Or when they mail the final payment it takes them 3 months to actually mail it...


That's an "interesting" business model... how about 50% down at the pre-session meeting, the remainder due on or before the session, and print & digital images paid-for at pick-up?



GerryDavid said:


> For those of you that are not at a studio often or do not have a studio, how do you handle this?


See above.


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2012)

Christie Photo said:


> Oh shoot. I forgot weddings. Yeah... need a contract there. I no longer take on weddings, but I would not leave the studio without a signed contract.
> 
> One more thought about portraiture: I believe a bit of over-thinking (or self-aggrandizing) is going on. I don't see how this is much different than going into a nice restaurant. I'm given a menu and I place my order. No signing of contracts.
> 
> -Pete


I'm curious Pete, for your portrait work, do you have the client sign any sort of acknowledgement of copy and usage rights, include that information in printed/electronic form with their product, or...?


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## CCericola (Aug 28, 2012)

Today is much differant than it was even 5 years ago. I worked for a studio and they did much of their business like Christie Photo. Only we did have contracts for school after the bid because we had them sign a multi-year contract for the whole school district. But now things have changed. Digital services have really pushed us forward and a lot of what we did in the past just isn't keeping up. Like contracts. It is best to have a contract for everything. I'm actually looking into Docusign. I requested more info on pricing. I just did a home refinance and we signed everything over the internet. it was pretty cool. 

I totally believe in Murphy's Law; Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. So I have a contract for portraits, one for weddings and for the 1 commercial shoot I did, the company already had a contract that I agreed to use (after having my lawyer look over it) 
You can get tons of general contracts. Just find the one you like then take it to your lawyer to tweak. It is MUCH cheaper that way. 

I think people forget that if you want to be a freelance photographer or own a studio you are still a business. And a lawyer, accountant etc... are part of being a business. I'm not saying you have to have one on retainer (but it is easier). I'm saying you should budget for one to take care of contracts in the beginning.

I have been threatened with lawsuits and I was saved by my contract and I have my lawyer to thank. 

Also, if you have to dip too many times into your business insurance you are either going to have sky-high rates or be dropped all together. Just like when you make too many claims on your homeowners or renters insurance. That's just how the world works.

My contract has a first page to list all the services and pricing we have agreed on, the second page has all the legal mumbo jumbo and the third page is a model release. It is a nice little package that I e-mail the client. They sign and fax or scan/email back to me or if it is possible I pick it up. I have also send pre-paid fed-ex labels to clients so they can send contracts back to me with little effort. So the excuse that getting things signed is a pain doesn't fly with me. There are too many options. 

I hope you take the advice from people who have been there, done that. Like my first studio employer told me, he made every mistake in the book and I get to reap the benefits of those mistakes. And it was true. There are so many pitfalls I was able to avoid because of him. 

So, you can take something off the internet and do it yourself. You can go to a lawyer and have one tweaked or written from scratch. But I have decided that I will not give out the contract that 1. is only good for me in my state for my business and 2. I PAID for only to give away for free??? Pfffft. I made that mistake already and from now on people who ask get Nada, nothing, zilch, zip.


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## BryanHousley (Aug 28, 2012)

I call them 'legal forms' and I use this book: Amazon.com: Business and Legal Forms for Photographers (Fourth Edition) (Business & Legal Forms for Photographers) (9781581156690): Tad Crawford: Books

it's awesome!


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## Christie Photo (Aug 28, 2012)

tirediron said:


> I'm curious Pete, for your portrait work, do you have the client sign any sort of acknowledgement of copy and usage rights, include that information in printed/electronic form with their product, or...?



No...  I never have.  Maybe I'm way off on this.

I never saw the need for it all.  Remember, I don't sell files to my portrait customers... only prints.  I guess I've always felt "in control" of the transaction; no payment, no photographs.

As for liability, I truly, absolutely, positively guarantee satisfaction.  If I can't provide images that the sitter loves, then I'll shoot more or refund the money... his/her choice.  I realized decades ago I never want anyone to settle for my work.  If the work isn't everything expected, then the photo is little more than a constant reminder of money wasted on me.  No thanks.  But again, no payment - no photos.

Things that have gone wrong for me over the years included negatives held up for months in shipping (one occasion) and a few abandoned orders (with only half paid).  Not too bad.  Oh... one big one last year.  A very good client of mine sent me out of state to shoot a building.  I've always had great direction from them on what they need.  This time, I got a bit sloppy.  I came back without the specific angles they needed.  They said they would use some of the images and to send a bill.  I couldn't do it.  I'm sure they would have paid, but why should they?  I didn't deliver.  As a result, they continue to use me... a lot.  I don't think this is hard to figure out.  I just treat my customers the way I want to be treated.

I truly hate the idea of my lawyer talking to their lawyer.  I have always made certain to communicate clearly everything I will do and everything the client will do BEFORE taking on the job.

I have no need of a model release for every portrait I shoot.  If I want to use one as a print in my window or on the web, I ask.

I just can't imagine approaching every sitting with a contract.  They way I work is on a more personal level.  Maybe I'm naive.  I really don't think so.  I just weigh what's at stake and decide if it's worth clouding it all up with contracts.  I don't see it with portraits.  It just seems too hard.

Why do I feel like I've just been to confession?

-Pete


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## Superfitz (Aug 28, 2012)

Christie Photo said:
			
		

> No...  I never have.  Maybe I'm way off on this.
> 
> I never saw the need for it all.  Remember, I don't sell files to my portrait customers... only prints.  I guess I've always felt "in control" of the transaction; no payment, no photographs.
> 
> ...



Pete rules! I like the way you do business!


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## IByte (Aug 28, 2012)

OP here ya go best book to start  with. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0038OOT98


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