# How to take it???? | Pittsburgh Pirates photo use



## sscarmack (May 7, 2014)

In one breath I am super excited and in the other I am kind of dumb founded.

I contacted the Pittsburgh Pirates about using one of my images that I thought they could benefit from.

Here are the emails....


---------------------------
Terry,



I was given your email address so I'm hoping you are the one I need to talk to.



My name is Sean Scarmack and my family has season tickets to the Lexus Club and I was fortunate enough to be able to grab this awesome photo from one of the games I attended and I have received some amazing feedback from it.



I think you guys may agree.





My website is www.seanscarmack.com



My cell phone is 724.456.5270 if you wish to talk to me over the phone rather than email.



(I then attached the photo)
---------------------------

His response

---------------------------

Hi Sean.
Great picture! Thanks for sharing.
Sincerely,
Terry


---------------------------

My response

---------------------------

Thank you! Do you think this is something that could be used for posters or media use?

I just recently hit 85k downloads so it seems to be a fan favorite.


[FONT=arial, sans-serif]If not, no harsh feelings. Still a Bucco at heart [/FONT]

---------------------------


I then never received another email back. And while celebrating both my dads birthday and my fiancés last night we were having ice cream cake watching the pirates game and during one of the advertising slots I noticed a very familiar photo.

I jumped up and told my mom to rewind the TV because I thought I recognized the photo. Turned out to be my photo and everyone was super shocked that my photo was on TV.


So, how do I take this? How would you take this? Not sure how to react.

Here are the photos...

Advertisement Screen Shot



The Original Photo


----------



## Designer (May 7, 2014)

You'd probably better talk to somebody familiar with the law.  There could be a fine point between your sending them the photo and your still claiming ownership of it.


----------



## paigew (May 7, 2014)

That is a really cool photo. I would be contacting a lawyer.


----------



## D-B-J (May 7, 2014)

paigew said:


> That is a really cool photo. I would be contacting a lawyer.



I would too.


----------



## Big Mike (May 7, 2014)

Nice Photo.

On one hand, we (as photographers) don't want to be taken advantage of.  It's not right for someone to use our works without permission (and possibly compensation).

On the other hand, fighting it may be more expensive and not worth the hassle.  It might be better to leave it as something that is really cool, that you can brag to your friends about, rather than turn it into a story about a legal battle.  

Also, if you look into it, you may find that you may not have been following the rules when you brought your camera to the ball park and took the photo in the first place.  Most facilities like sports parks & arenas have 'fine print' rules that restrict photography.


----------



## curtyoungblood (May 7, 2014)

It is tough to tell because the tv photo is low res, but those don't appear to be the same photograph to me, there are a few inconsistencies in the fireworks trails. Notable, there's sort of a loop in the top right of the bunch of firework on the left that appears on the tv, but not in your photo. There's also a vertical streak on the left side of the right hand group that only appears in the tv photo. Also, if they cropped your image for tv, then there would be some streaks from the cluster that is cropped out above the cluster on the left. 

I think it is much more likely that this photo originated from the team photographer than them stealing your photo. It may be possible that they used your photo for inspiration, and simply recreated it or they likely told the team photographer to get a shot of the fireworks and had it already. 

Also, you haven't really provided enough information. How did you go about getting 85,000 people to download it? Did you give it away for free If so, is there anything in that agreement that says the team can't use it if it is yours? Did you shoot this from your seat or were you at the game as a credentialed photographer? If you were at a seat, does your ticket agreement allow you to profit from the photo?


----------



## weepete (May 7, 2014)

Mate, it kinda sounds like you were giving it to them to use, as opposed to offering to sell it. I think that if you were offering to sell it you should've made that clear in your first e-mail.


----------



## manicmike (May 7, 2014)

weepete said:


> Mate, it kinda sounds like you were giving it to them to use, as opposed to offering to sell it. I think that if you were offering to sell it you should've made that clear in your first e-mail.



This was my first thought.


----------



## KmH (May 7, 2014)

1. Your 1st email does not give then permission to use your photo.

2. The photo on the TV could have been edited beyond a crop. 

3. The image you made of the TV looks to be to crude to make a positive determination.

4. Like Mike said, the costs involved to pursue any legal action would likely be a lot more than you could recover.

Help! I've Been Infringed! | Photo Attorney

TWO EASY STEPS FOR USING THE DMCA TAKEDOWN NOTICE TO BATTLE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT


----------



## sscarmack (May 7, 2014)

weepete said:


> Mate, it kinda sounds like you were giving it to them to use, as opposed to offering to sell it. I think that if you were offering to sell it you should've made that clear in your first e-mail.




Thats what I was afraid of....live you learn I guess :/


But Curt, its the same photo, its just a shotty cell phone pic and there is no way someone could replicate it that closely.

When they light off fireworks, they only light them off in right field, I then photoshopped different fireworks all over. And even removed people on the field, as well as fixing the mound and the right field lines.
(Not saying someone can't get it close, but 'this close', no way.)


And I agree with the, who knows what the rules are about bringing a camera into the ballpark, buying a ticket may have rules about it and I've never looked into it and I'm sure they have every exit covered.


I was just shocked by the whole experience, never once thought a photo of mine would be used on a TV Ad.


----------



## wyogirl (May 7, 2014)

This is the official camera use policy at PNC Park.
CAMERAS AND VIDEO RECORDERS

Guests are welcome to bring cameras and video recorders (not in hard-sided cases) into the ballpark for personal use only. Commercial use of photos without the expressed consent of the Pirates is prohibited. Fans are requested to avoid standing in the aisles while using this equipment. Guests should not obstruct the views of others while taking pictures and refrain from using tripods and monopods. The Pirates reserve the right to remove any Guests that do not cooperate with this policy.

PNC Park Information - A-to-Z Guide | pirates.com: ballpark


----------



## runnah (May 7, 2014)

You can never trust pirates.


----------



## sscarmack (May 7, 2014)

runnah said:


> You can never trust pirates.



Haha, Argh me matey.


I figured, well thanks for all the insight guys. You've helped a bunch


----------



## TheNevadanStig (May 7, 2014)

Well, that policy wyogirl posted said you are not allowed to use it for commercial use. You did hint on attempting to do so, but at the same time, the policy doesn't give them permission to use your photographs.

I would contact an attorney. Most attorneys will give a free consultation, and often times will assist on an early contact for free. You would write an official letter which in short terms will most likely be a cease and desist with a short list of demands. This is easily something you can do yourself as well with just a little research. Basically you will state that they have used your photo without permission, you demand them to stop, throw in a little extra that you want, and give them usually around 30 days to comply and respond. I would go at least this far. You never know, they may give you some more season tickets or something to stay quite about it in the least. 
The second thing that may be going on here, that no one has hinted at, they may not have stolen YOUR photo intentionally. You say it has been downloaded  85K times. How do you know one of those 85K people didn't go and submit the photo to them, claiming it was theirs?


----------



## sscarmack (May 7, 2014)

TheNevadanStig said:


> Well, that policy wyogirl posted said you are not allowed to use it for commercial use. You did hint on attempting to do so, but at the same time, the policy doesn't give them permission to use your photographs.
> 
> I would contact an attorney. Most attorneys will give a free consultation, and often times will assist on an early contact for free. You would write an official letter which in short terms will most likely be a cease and desist with a short list of demands. This is easily something you can do yourself as well with just a little research. Basically you will state that they have used your photo without permission, you demand them to stop, throw in a little extra that you want, and give them usually around 30 days to comply and respond. I would go at least this far. You never know, they may give you some more season tickets or something to stay quite about it in the least.
> The second thing that may be going on here, that no one has hinted at, they may not have stolen YOUR photo intentionally. You say it has been downloaded  85K times. How do you know one of those 85K people didn't go and submit the photo to them, claiming it was theirs?




Touche. Very good points. I think my first mistake was emailing how I did. I should of been more up front, but like you said about the policy. Its a iffy line haha


----------



## slackercruster (May 7, 2014)

Nice pix, too bad you got snubbed. 

Talk with lawyer. You may have to invest $1000 retainer to talk though. Lawyers don't like to talk for free. Many use an auto phone timer to bill from and have minimums and round time up in 5 or 15 minute blocks. I've spent lots of $ for legal fees in other areas. I had to pay $5500 one time and got nothing from it. The lawyer was a crapper and incompetent. I filed a complaint with the Bar...again nothing. I had to hire a 2nd attorney to re-start things all over. It was dragged out for eons and endless $$ checks.

If there is nothing you can do OP, at least you had your moment of fame. Giving out freebies is part of photography nowadays. Just think of all the pix they must get and they trash. 

Best of luck!


----------



## astroNikon (May 7, 2014)

I can see the news headlines now

Pittsburgh Pirates Pilfered Pirated Private Photo


----------



## vintagesnaps (May 7, 2014)

Read their Terms of Use - 3. COMMUNITY FEATURES . It covers "Submitted Content" which includes images (of which I'm sure they get sent plenty). To me it sounds like once you've given them a photo, that puts it under their Terms. 
MLB.com Terms of Use | pirates.com: Help 

See the third paragraph - 'You acknowledge that your submitted content is not confidential...' '...and may be read, intercepted by others and widely accessible on the internet and/or via other interactive media...' which I imagine probably includes being seen by people lazing on their sofas watching the game on TV. 

I've done some local sports (incl. minor pro hockey) and I found it took getting to know people with a team and getting photos seen by the right person etc. However at major league level, it's probably - yes, a whole other ball game (bad pun I know).


----------



## manaheim (May 7, 2014)

Really nice photo.

You, however, did a lot of things wrong in this interaction.  Next time I would suggest thinking through some sort of basic business plan before even reaching out to someone like this.  They totally stole your photo without permission, but the way you presented it, I'm kinda not surprised.  You still have rights here, I think, but good luck chasing them down in any way that won't end up making you look like a jerk.


----------



## Designer (May 7, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> I can see the news headlines now
> 
> Pittsburgh Pirates Pilfered Pirated Private Photo



Although it should be "Picture" for the hard "p" sound.  

Can I Pirate your headline, make one simple change and call it mine?  

Please?


----------



## sscarmack (May 8, 2014)

They played a different ad yesterday, for the firework night. Its really cool to see my photo being used, just wish it said "Photo by Scarmack" or something.

You Live You Learn.


The guy won't email me back either HAHA. I just simply said, "Hey haven't heard from you in a few days, wanted to touch base and chat with you about my photo."


----------



## manaheim (May 8, 2014)

Honestly, I hate to say it, but I would consult an attorney, and I would be extremely pissed if I were you. This isn't some mom and pop team stealing your image. They should know better, and they should either pay (and get your explicit permission (with a CONTRACT and TERMS OF USE)), or they should apologize and not use the image again.


----------



## astroNikon (May 8, 2014)

Designer said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > I can see the news headlines now
> ...


LOL
go ahead
 But i have to check with my legal team first and see if I can copyright each word and trademark the phrase   Lol


----------



## Steve5D (May 8, 2014)

I would show up at their corporate offices, since the person e-mailed probably works there.

Be professional, and be courteous, but also be resolved. 

Ask to speak to the person you e-mailed. If he's not there, ask to speak to his supervisor. Don't talk to an assistant, or some message taker. Talk to someone who can address your concern.

If no one will see you, sit there and ask every person who walks thru the reception area "Do you work for the Pirates?" When they say "Yes", ask "What do you do?"

Sooner or later, someone is going to say something to someone else, and someone will speak to you.

I would also take to their social media outlets...


----------



## NancyMoranG (May 8, 2014)

I am not in the business and could only hope someone would use my photo but,....could you add, ' I would like to talk to you about the photo I sent you_ that you are using so far, without my permission' _? 
Would that imply you are going to be looking for their response as in  ' legal' jargon why they are using it.
nice photo.
Nancy


----------



## Jamesaz (May 9, 2014)

I shot a corporate gig at a dbacks game a few years ago. I had a field pass and was in the dugout and on the field before play started and could go anywhere in the stadium after the game began. It was explicit that all images belonged to MLB and could not be used for commercial purposes. So, it was ok for them to be published in the corporate newsletter but could not be sold or used for any commercial purpose. It may even say that on your ticket stub. You could probably sell in an art fair setting but I wouldn't get a lawyer as MLB has a battalion of them and way more money unless your last name is Heinz or Carnagie


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## vfotog (May 14, 2014)

you submitted an unsolicited image, even suggested they use it as a  poster, but never mention restricting their usage or mention money. Even  though you have let 85000 people have the image for free, you now want  the team to pay? You realize that an image so widely distributed has very diminished value. You're not trying to sell a print as fine art. Selling it  to the team would indeed be commercial usage, and you weren't allowed to  shoot the image and use it commercially. The terms of their site quite  clearly state if you submit an image to them, you give them unlimited  usage and no compensation. You did really everything wrong, and you should think seriously before you get a lawyer. And lets hope your season tickets don't matter to you or your family, cos they no doubt have extra terms attached. And no doubt can be revoked at will. And suing for not being compensated for an image you aren't allowed to sell would be just cause anyway. Learn from this; if you act like a fan, don't expect to be treated like a pro. and READ all the terms first.


----------



## Vince.1551 (May 14, 2014)

vfotog said:


> you submitted an unsolicited image, even suggested they use it as a  poster, but never mention restricting their usage or mention money. Even  though you have let 85000 people have the image for free, you now want  the team to pay? You realize that an image so widely distributed has very diminished value. You're not trying to sell a print as fine art. Selling it  to the team would indeed be commercial usage, and you weren't allowed to  shoot the image and use it commercially. The terms of their site quite  clearly state if you submit an image to them, you give them unlimited  usage and no compensation. You did really everything wrong, and you should think seriously before you get a lawyer. And lets hope your season tickets don't matter to you or your family, cos they no doubt have extra terms attached. And no doubt can be revoked at will. And suing for not being compensated for an image you aren't allowed to sell would be just cause anyway. Learn from this; if you act like a fan, don't expect to be treated like a pro. and READ all the terms first.



Agree ... Plus they are just doing you a favor by giving you free publicity and there are no distinctive commercial advantage from showing your picture. Ask yourself do you think you are the only one sending them photos? They probably have thousands people like you sending them emails with photos. 

I'll suggest you thank them for the free publicity and include that free publicity in your resume


----------



## Raj_55555 (May 15, 2014)

Even if Sean did everything wrong, and even if the team used his image based on their "*if you submit an image to them, you give them unlimited  usage and no compensation*"  terms. He deserved proper communication from them, and at least a "thank  you for the photo" email.  Further giving unlimited usage rights  doesn't mean the photographer is not to be credited. What happened to  proper credits?  

Is it possible that the person you were emailing to is the only real culprit  here, and that the other bigshots at the pittsbugh pirates were just  unaware of this entire scene. It wouldn't be far fetched if he passed the work as his own, I've seen people do that. 

One  other possibility, if you don't want to go the legal way, would be to  involve media. News channels love this type of news, big teams avoid bad press and may even offer you something. You can even  offer the media guys the headline mentioned by astronikon "*Pittsburgh Pirates Pilfered Pirated Private Photo*", but please clearly mention if you wish to be compensated for the title


----------



## vintagesnaps (May 15, 2014)

The team didn't steal the photo, or solicit it - it was _sent_ to them (submitted). It's necessary to read Terms related to submissions etc. _before_ giving someone one of your photos (or posting it ANYWHERE, or using ANY website, to know what you're agreeing to by using the site or by submitting your photos). 

My experience has been taking photos for marketing for a minor pro team and I'm familiar with college sports. I know how things work at that level - you need to go thru steps defined in their media info. (such as for college sports contacting the SID's office). You could get an annual media guide from the team to look up info. on their PR and marketing depts. 

I'm sure they already have team photographers, and media requests for every game from photographers from major sports publications and sponsors, etc. I imagine these days teams are probably inundated with cell phone pics being sent to them from fans. It's necessary to get informed before sending photos and find out the procedures for any team or arena/venue.


----------



## astroNikon (May 15, 2014)

Interestingly enough, the Detroit Tigers has a similar photo the other day .. approx same perspective, though no fireworks.
Made me think of your submission.


----------



## MOREGONE (May 16, 2014)

At this point I think all I would do is email back and ask for credit of the photo.

_Courtesy of fan/photographer sscarmack_

You screwed the pooch so to say not expressing you wish to sell the image and by explaining it was already downloaded 85,000 times. 85,000 'likes' may have been a better way to present it. But you just told them I gave it away to everyone else so I would see where they would think you were 'giving' it to them.


----------

