# Turning my Passion into a career ~



## OhioGuy (Nov 16, 2013)

I will try to be brief with my questions so feel free to ask me anything you may need more detail on.

I work full time but I'm free most evenings and weekends. I want to _slowly_ turn my passion into a full-time profession some day. This may take years, I'm in no hurry. I'm 45 and tired of working for "the man". The older I get the more I realize that *joy is achieved by doing things you have a passion for.* With that said, here are a few questions to get me going:

Do I build my own website or use a service like Smugmug to create my online presence? What are the disadvantages, advantages? Do people honestly make their money selling the prints on those sites or can I do the same thing with my own site, like Wordpress? I am pretty savvy with the Internet and I work in the IT profession so I can adapt to anything. I really don't want to mess with selling prints though. Once I process and edit the photos that's where I'm still deciding how to make the money on them. Or, should I charge a flat fee for the work and let the clients deal with the photos and leave it up to them by providing a DVD to them?

What do most folks like? Going online, viewing the photos and purchasing their favorites? (Smugmug) Or, do they just want to pay you for the work and give them a DVD? With Smugmug costing hundreds of dollars a year I just wonder how much money is actually generated from the photos by the time Smugmug gets their cut.

Thanks for any advice! Once I figure this first step out I can probably take it from here. I just want the best "business" approach for the future.


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## tirediron (Nov 16, 2013)

Welcome to TPF!  In no particular order...  There's no 'right' answer to the website question.  You can hand-code, use word-press, or one of a done other services.  I hand-coded my first 'site and it was okay, the current version is WordPress, using a series of plug-in templates, and while it's not terribly eye-catching, it does what I need it to do, that is, hang my shingle in cyber-space.  I actually get a LOT more traffic my facebook page than my website, but the website allows me to customize things exactly the way I want (more or less).  The advantages to WordPress and the like are that you have a series of easily customizable templates that will do most anything you want.  The problem with them is that they're a series of templates which will do most, but all of the things you want.

Making money by cold-selling prints off of a website is likely to cost you more money in 'site upkeep than it will generate in print sales.  My 'site has been up for almost ten years, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of images that I've sold off it.  The key to making money in photography is offering a service; that's the hook.  You photograph a family and then sell them prints/files/whatever.

There's an ongoing, and often heated debate about selling digital files on a disc, and many older pros are against it, because print sales can generate a LOT of money; if you can make that work, that's great, but depending on your market and region, you may find that if you don't at least offer digital files, you're going to get passed by.

Advice?  Take every business and entrepreneurship course your local adult-ed school offers.  The photography business is MUCH more about business than photography.  Learn your gear inside out and spend every spare minute practicing.  Anyone can take a nice picture under good conditions, but can you deal with the couple who insists on having their family shoot at noon in the middle of July and then shows up wearing white shirts and black pants?


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## OhioGuy (Nov 16, 2013)

Thank you for the prompt response and I appreciate your advice.

What I gather from your post is Smugmug would not generate me enough money from online selling of prints than it would be worth paying the annual fees? Is that a correct assumption?

Let me also add that I've been taking photos for over two decades so although it's only a hobby at the moment, I have the needed experience to make it work as a trade, but just need some guided direction on more of the business concept of how to generate a living from it.

Do I sell hard prints? (seems like a ton of work unless you let another site do it for you) Or, do I charge for my services (taking the actual photos) and just provide digital formats to them?

Our daughter wanted to go with one of the local professional companies who took her senior photos. She wanted the "experience" and frankly, I didn't know if I could achieve the same results. So, after paying nearly $700 and only getting three prints we felt extremely ripped off. After seeing the photos I knew then that I could do the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Live and learn. Yet, these businesses continue to get clients and seem to do well. I don't understand how they can charge an arm and a leg and actually get referrals. Amazes me.

Anyway, I am pretty good at thinking of marketing solutions and do plan on utilizing Facebook and maybe some others. I've used Wordpress before so that would be kind of fun building that again. I used Wordpress for a different business venture that never panned out but I did like the application.


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## KmH (Nov 16, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> I really don't want to mess with selling prints though. Once I process and edit the photos that's where I'm still deciding how to make the money on them. Or, should I charge a flat fee for the work and let the clients deal with the photos and leave it up to them by providing a DVD to them?


There are 3 kinds of photography business:
Commercial
Retail
Editorial
Business Resources | American Society of Media Photographers
Black Star Rising: Photography and Design

Commercial photography is stock and assignment type photography.
The business model is about selling use licensing to the photos you make.
When a use is non-exclusive you can sell the sell a photo over and over again to many clients. For that reason, an exclusive use license costs considerably more.
Copyright is a bundle of rights that can be licensed piecemeal.
You charge a use licensing fee based on exclusive/non-exclusive, geographical area of the use, length of time, media types, size(s), number of impressions, print run volume, etc, etc, etc.
Here is a breakdown of a successful estimate for a 1 day $20,000 commercial shoot - Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com

Retail photography is about photographing and selling to individuals.
The only way to make money in this type of photography business is to sell a range of products.
A key is knowing how much it costs you to do business - Cost Of Doing Business or CODB and Cost Of Goods Sold or COGS
By giving your customers a DVD of digital files you not only lose control of how the images get reproduced, you also lose any chance to up-sell.
Many successful retail photographers have found out that selling products in person is necessary to maintain profitability.In fact many successful retail photographers require a minimum purchase before a customer can buy a disc of images.
Maintaining a full time retail photography business requires an average sale of right around $1000.

If you're able to develop a workable business plan that does not rely on selling prints and other products, you will still need to know what has to be done so a high quality print can be made, because a vast majority your customers will have zero clue :
Tutorials on Color Management & Printing

Most of a working photographers time (about 75%) has to be devoted to doing business tasks rather than to photography tasks.
So it would be better if your passion was business, rather than photography.

Editorial photography has undergone very dramatic changes over the last 15 years.
Staff photographer jobs are now pretty much non-existent.
Most editorial photography is now done by freelance photographers, or reporters that have no photography expertise.
A Chicago newspaper recently laid off their entire photography department. Chicago Sun-Times lays off all photographers - Chicago Tribune

Time's $30 Cover Photo: The Scary Realities of Supply and Demand | Mediaite

Here are some resources:
Going Pro: How to Make the Leap from Aspiring to Professional Photographer
How to Start a Home-Based Photography Business, 6th (Home-Based Business Series)
Photography Business Secrets: The Savvy Photographer's Guide to Sales, Marketing, and More

Online :
Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov
Free Small Business Advice | How-to Resources | Tools | Templates | SCORE


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## KmH (Nov 16, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> Our daughter wanted to go with one of the local professional companies who took her senior photos. She wanted the "experience" and frankly, I didn't know if I could achieve the same results. So, after paying nearly $700 and only getting three prints we felt extremely ripped off. After seeing the photos I knew then that I could do the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Live and learn. Yet, these businesses continue to get clients and seem to do well. I don't understand how they can charge an arm and a leg and actually get referrals. Amazes me.


You didn't pay $700 for 3 prints, plus you do not say what size prints, on what media, nor if they were mounted or framed.

The photographer added value in the form of experience, technical know how, and artistic knowledge, plus some amount for the 'experience' of having a professional photographer give posing direction and managing the shoot in a reasonable amount of time.

Part of the $700 went to the photography businesses expenses, like wear and tear on their gear, pre and post shoot consultation time, image editing time, continuing education for both photography and maintaining the business, liability insurance, health insurance, office supplies, phone bill, electricity, yada, yada, yada.

Plus you got some custom made, luxury products.


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 16, 2013)

Once your passion requires upgrading gear all the time, trying to find clients that will pay you what you think you may be worth, start collecting and dealing with business taxes, chase after clients that owe you money. Your passion will very quickly become a lot of work that is not enjoyable.  Going back to being just a person that enjoys photography is like getting dumped and the person wanting to stay as a "little f" friend.  It usually ends up being a bitter-sweet relationship.

Just enjoy photography.  

Oh and when "the man" becomes yourself, it is a good deal harder to deal with the stress trying to make money freelancing.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2013)

I have only been in business for a year and a half so take that for what it's worth. I started out using Zenfolio, it's similar to Smugmug but I like the layout, the templates, price and ease of use better then Smugmug myself. but it is still an all in one website and for $100 a year it in my opinion is worth having to pay the fee for not having to bother shipping the items, handling them, fulfilling orders etc. Even with the small number of sales I'm using it for, it pays for itself. Could I generate more sales doing it myself? not sure yet. Most people who have been in the business for awhile say you can generate a lot more sales by doing in home sales yourself but sales at the moment isn't my strongest ability at the moment. Though I have started working with my clients after a shoot and talking to them about large prints, canvas etc. to get them thinking about it and thinking about prints on there wall. So I am trying to slowly work my way to that point of in home selling. And when I get to that point I could just turn off the ability to buy prints online and just do the ordering myself at some point.

 I didn't want to go with selling cd's at first but have started selling them. I have had people buy cd's and nothing more, I have had people just buy prints, and I have had people buy prints and buy the cd so for me personally it's hard to say one way is better then the other. I will sell going with CD sales is for the most part a quick money generator. I may miss out on higher print sales down the line but its almost guaranteed money at the beginning. And this can also have a lot to do with your price point. I'm not dealing in high end stuff so I'm not at that $1000 price for one shoot. I'm in the $200 price range at the moment.

As for the trying to do something you love factor I fit in there as well. I just turned 40 this year and after a few layoffs and working In the engineering field for the last 16 or so years I am loving the change. I enjoy the business aspect, I enjoy the creativity, about the only thing I don't really enjoy is tracking the money. Luckily my wife works at a credit union so she has been helping me keep track of things. I haven't made it to full time work at the moment even though this is my only job. But I am working towards the goal right now of being able to do this half the time and maybe a part time job to make the money I'm wanting until I can see about going full time all the time. It has definatly been a fun time and stressful wondering where that next job is coming from. but I still enjoy doing it.


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## pgriz (Nov 16, 2013)

Beyond the very good overview provided by Keith in post #4, there is another way to make money and that is to sell courses.  You probably noticed the phenomenon that everyone wants to show you the secrets to (finding the right investment / finding the right client / finding the right job / getting the right golf swing / etc.).  Which brings up the question of why, if their advice is so great, do they want to create more competition for themselves.

Any self-employed business has maybe 20% of the time devoted to the "doing", and 80% devoted to running the business (marketing, sales, customer relations, contracts, supplier relations, book-keeping and regulatory filings).  So pursuing your passion quickly becomes the place where you spend the least amount of time.  Is this where you want to end up?  And will you still have the passion after dealing with the 80% that is needed, but is NOT your passion?


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## OhioGuy (Nov 17, 2013)

Like I said, I'm 45 and I've been around the block a few times....in a good way, of course.  No, I completely understand what everyone is saying, especially Keith. I was very brief in my initial post so everything business related you guys have been mentioning I'm also aware of.

I'm an entrepreneur type personality. Frankly, the business side of photography is just as exciting to me. I use to dabble in stock photography supplying images to iStock, Alamy and several others but soon realized that shooting stock was quite boring and my images really never did anything so I became frustrated with that pretty quick. I'd rather deal with people. In my current job, for nearly two decades, I've been working with clients in a different industry, but I enjoy the people connection principle. Yes, some folks can be quite annoying and rude, but for the most part I enjoy working with people.

I understand what you're saying about when photography becomes work it will no longer be a passion. Humbly, I disagree. I've thought about all this long and hard and the freedom of working for myself far outweighs any issues that may come along with a business. For nearly 20 years I've been stressed out, unhappy and tired of working for someone else. I can't control any business decisions and the so-called leaders where I work are a bunch of incompetent monkeys. I could run circles around them in a business sense. But, I'm just an expendable grunt, filling a need.

Photography will be just one service I will provide but I also have experience in video, writing and I'm very creative. I use to be a graphics designer years ago. So I have some ideas to keep me busy and I will offer a variety of unique services that will separate me from a large majority of my competition.

*So back to my original question:*

For now, getting into this part-time, what should I do with my photos? Let's keep it simple and get some opinions on this for now ok?

1. Do I create a WordPress site to market my business and just sell them time and material by providing a DVD and other services?

2. Do I create an account on Smugmug or like Zenfolio and allow my clients to order from there but only charge a fee for my time?

3. Do I charge a fee for my time AND try to sell them prints and deal with the shipping and everything else involved with an actual product? (This seems like the most stressful to me and so much could go wrong)

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I really do want to work for myself one day, more than you can imagine. For those who do this already I so envy you and I hope you realize what you have. There are so many folks like me who have to work for someone else and deal with a high-stress environment every single day with no escape or decision making. I'm getting too old for that nonsense! Heck, I'm 10 years older than my boss and the majority of the leaders at my company. What's wrong with this picture? Only because I don't have that crisp piece of paper on the wall called an MBA. (kicking myself now)


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## gsgary (Nov 17, 2013)

Your passion could turn into a chore


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## gsgary (Nov 17, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> Like I said, I'm 45 and I've been around the block a few times....in a good way, of course.  No, I completely understand what everyone is saying, especially Keith. I was very brief in my initial post so everything business related you guys have been mentioning I'm also aware of.
> 
> I'm an entrepreneur type personality. Frankly, the business side of photography is just as exciting to me. I use to dabble in stock photography supplying images to iStock, Alamy and several others but soon realized that shooting stock was quite boring and my images really never did anything so I became frustrated with that pretty quick. I'd rather deal with people. In my current job, for nearly two decades, I've been working with clients in a different industry, but I enjoy the people connection principle. Yes, some folks can be quite annoying and rude, but for the most part I enjoy working with people.
> 
> ...



Working for yourself can be very stressful ive been doing it for over 30 years and would love to work for someone else with all the perks like holiday pay


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## OhioGuy (Nov 17, 2013)

I suppose no matter what side of the fence we are on the other seems better. Aren't human beings crazy?


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## tirediron (Nov 17, 2013)

Yep!  A big part of the issue is that these are questions only you can answer.  You need to determine your target market, research your local customer base and provide the product(s) that they're going to purchase.  This is why I suggested the business training.  Even setting up as a 'weekend warrior' is not just a simple job, at least not if you want to make money!


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## Tee (Nov 17, 2013)

I'd say no matter what website template you pursue, most importantly is establishing a domain name you can have forever.  That way as you change your web presence your domain name can follow you.  So, look for websites that allow you to have a personal domain name.  I've changed web hosting companies 3 times in the last 5 years but have kept the same "www" the entire time.  I've done the SmugMug thing in the past before their update and the customization ability was less than desirable.  Apparently they've updated the look.  Also, do you want e-commerce?  Ability for clients to download images right from your site?  Take those into consideration.  I'm with Portfoliositez now and am contemplating moving to Squarespace.


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 17, 2013)

Seems like people use a variety of the sites being mentioned and it's personal preference. A couple of photographers in my area that I know thru shooting local hockey are doing sports and weddings and it's still a sideline for them after a good number of years.

You could look at pro resources like ASMP or look at PDN (Photo District News) to follow happenings in the photography field.


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 17, 2013)

gsgary said:


> OhioGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, I'm 45 and I've been around the block a few times....in a good way, of course.  No, I completely understand what everyone is saying, especially Keith. I was very brief in my initial post so everything business related you guys have been mentioning I'm also aware of.
> ...



I have to agree with what gsgary has said. I've been a photographer for close to 40 years now. It has it's highs and lows, more lows in the past 10 years than all the years before.  Not having a guaranteed pay cheque every month, some months not having a cheque at all, there have been lots of times where I could have been the stress poster child.  I love what I do, but it is a job that I do, I work at it in some form every day, and it doesn't always mean taking pictures. 

Sounds like you are living in a stressful environment, but you will be walking out of one into another  with no guarantee of success.  I would save the money, buy the gear and then walk out the door and see what happens.  Photography these days is a competitive mine field, if you're lucky you'll be able to negotiate your way around it, make sure you have the map back.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 17, 2013)

If you like photography, keep it as a hobby.

Like sex, once you start doing it for money, the glow goes away really quickly.


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## manaheim (Nov 17, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> If you like photography, keep it as a hobby.
> 
> Like sex, once you start doing it for money, the glow goes away really quickly.



Speaking from experience, Lew?


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## OhioGuy (Nov 18, 2013)

Well, thanks for the honest feedback from everyone. It seems there are more negative comments about photography businesses than positive so I will keep pursuing information and form my own decision one day. I will try to start doing this part-time which will give me a better feel for it. No worries, I am not quitting my day job but it may be something I can slowly build.

Thanks again!


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## The_Traveler (Nov 18, 2013)

Good attitude, good plan, good luck.

L


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 18, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> Well, thanks for the honest feedback from everyone. It seems there are more negative comments about photography businesses than positive so I will keep pursuing information and form my own decision one day. I will try to start doing this part-time which will give me a better feel for it. No worries, I am not quitting my day job but it may be something I can slowly build.
> 
> Thanks again!



This is the best way to test the waters. Good luck


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 19, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> Well, thanks for the honest feedback from everyone. It seems there are more negative comments about photography businesses than positive so I will keep pursuing information and form my own decision one day. I will try to start doing this part-time which will give me a better feel for it. No worries, I am not quitting my day job but it may be something I can slowly build.
> 
> Thanks again!



Part time is the best way to start things out. It will start slow and you can start seeing what is working for you and what isn't, start working on a more detailed plan of how you want to run your business. It usually starts off with friends, and then branches out to friends of friends and then just people who find you as word of mouth starts coming out. I started doing more and more shoots for free at first, I do a lot of model shoots as practice and I would schedule a few shoots in a week to see if I could handle working while doing the photography thing to see if I could handle the stress, See if the fun you have doing a shoot a week and editing as you like is the same when you have back to back shoots and people are calling you in a couple days wondering where there photos are etc, etc.  some of the people that are telling you to keep it a hobby are the guys who have been doing it fulltime for 20 years. you have been in your field for that long. if someone came along wanting to do what I do I'd probably tell him to choose something else as well. I've done the work doing a job you don't really care about for 20 years and was making good money. But I'm getting to the age where good money isn't making me happy and I'd rather spend my time being happy then to work at a job I don't like. It is a hard field to make money in, and for most people (99%) there not going to be rich, but sometimes you have to decide what is more important for you.


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## astroNikon (Nov 19, 2013)

This is one thing I'll be testing the waters too ... slowly getting into doing this on the side, more as a "professional hobby" than a business.  At least for now.

I've learnt that there is so much to learn to taking a "great" versus "good" portrait that I want to be able to do "great" portraits.
Up until lately, I've only really taken pictures of the stars/planets, and my kids sports.  I'm getting better at them all though, slowly.

It's a very rewarding activity.  Just keep at it.
It also can be profitable, though as many have mentioned, difficult.

But then, profitable businesses have to start somewhere.  Otherwise, no one would even start anything.


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## kevinmac (Nov 26, 2013)

OhioGuy said:


> Well, thanks for the honest feedback from everyone. It seems there are more negative comments about photography businesses than positive so I will keep pursuing information and form my own decision one day. I will try to start doing this part-time which will give me a better feel for it. No worries, I am not quitting my day job but it may be something I can slowly build.
> 
> Thanks again!



I say go for it! I'm in a very similar situation as you.


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