# Looking for "free" business advice.



## Tight Knot (May 20, 2012)

Is looking for "free" business advice on the forum, the same as being asked to do "free" photography work?

Here's the story.

I am slowly going pro (very, very slowly), and in general, I've gotten over doing "free" work to gain exposure. 
So far, Thank G-D, my work has been very well received by my customers.
At the end of this last week, I got a call from my son's kindergarten teacher asking me to shoot the end-of-the-year photographs for the kids and teachers (+- 25 kids and 4 teachers). I've done portrait sessions before, but never in a school setting, and even though I feel I have the equipment and the technical knowledge, I have no idea how much to charge for something like this.
So, I got creative (or so I thought), and asked her who they used last year, and how much they paid, to try and get an understanding of fees.
The teacher told me that last year they did use a photographer, but this year, they weren't paying for one because they felt the money could be better spent on extra school things for the kids. Plus, she told me, she had already asked my just-barely-6 year old if he would want me to be the photographer for the class, and he said yes, so it would mean a lot to him if I did it. Wow!! Talk about guilt trip!! She also told me it won't cost me anything, because all i have to do is give her the photos digitally, and they would print them for the parents. She also told me, that if I don't do the photos, they won't be hiring another photographer, she would take the photos herself with her $30 camera.
So I told her, no problem, I won't charge the school, I'll do the photography, and I will offer the prints to the parents at a good rate, just like I remember from when I was in school.-
But nay, nay, nay, she told me that the parents had paid +- 120 in the beginning of the school year for all the extras that the school would do, including trips and year-end photographs, so I can't charge the parents for the prints.

Do I do this just for the experience? Even though I know I will be pushed into more "free" work from this? Or do I offer to do it for free, and give each of the parents a 4x6 print for free with a small watermark on it (so that they get the photos they were promised by the school at the beginning of the year), and offer photos, or packages-of-photos to the parents to try and make some money out of this? If so, what is classified as a normal charge for school prints ?

Looking forward to some good advice,

Thanks.


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## katerolla (May 20, 2012)

what a guilt trip, would your teacher tutor your son for free since it will cost her nothing. the photographic industry has taken a huge hit in the last few yreas because of thoughts like this, there is no need to cheapen the industry even more, your time is worth just as much as hers and any one else&#8217;s who needs to pay their bills.


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## TheFantasticG (May 20, 2012)

I would do it and plaster a watermark all over it with a URL at the bottom to a gallery with low res 600px images for purchase (of course they can purchase wm free high quality images).


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## DanPower (May 20, 2012)

if you were a bus driver and they told you they wanted to hire your bus but they won't pay even though they'd taken money from the parents for field trips, would you do it?  Or if you owned a pizza shop would you supply meals for the fair for nothing even though they were selling the pizzas?  Photographers seem to be easily manipulated because there doesn't seem to be any tangible cost to taking pictures... it's easy, anyone can just push a button, right?  This teacher doesn't seem to realise that you've spent thousands of dollars and several years working to get to where you are...

And using your kid like that is straight up manipulation.. mate it doesn't matter if she's asking you to take photos or be the lunch lady, that's not on... I applaud your patience with her so far, I think I would have told her to stick it a long time ago.

For the record I read somewhere that doing free work for exposure is a dicey road because people get used to the free service and get upset when it eventually stops... I'm new to photography and I hadn't really thought about the concept of free work since in none of my businesses would I ever have thought of doing free stuff for exposure, discounted yes but completely free?  No way.  Anyways it makes sense to me, I don't really think photography should be different to any other business; you are a professional, you are providing a service and you should be compensated for your time and expenses.

That's my 2 cents on free work anyways...


EDIT: I've had a think about it and the guilt trip has got you kind of cornered... you almost HAVE to do it now otherwise your son's not going to be too happy... but I would be having a private word (or two, I can think of two very suitable words) with this teacher and probably the school principal about this situation.  And as TheFantasticG said I would probably watermark the hell out of the free images and offer high res for sale, if the parents complain to you I'd just give them this teacher's phone number.

You're in a sticky situation but I still think you should be able to get out of it without doing it for free.


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## Overread (May 20, 2012)

I would counter and say that if the school has taken money for the service then the service should be paid for and delivered as promised and that, speaking as a parent of one of the children (who's fees you've paid for) you're rather displeased that the school would take money from you for a service and then try to flounce paying for that service.


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## Overread (May 20, 2012)

DanPower said:


> For the record I read somewhere that doing free work for exposure is a dicey road because people get used to the free service and get upset when it eventually stops... I'm new to photography and I hadn't really thought about the concept of free work since in none of my businesses would I ever have thought of doing free stuff for exposure, discounted yes but completely free?  No way.  Anyways it makes sense to me, I don't really think photography should be different to any other business; you are a professional, you are providing a service and you should be compensated for your time and expenses.



I think the basis for working for free used to work better than it does now, mostly because in the past there were far fewer photographers in the market. So doing a bit of work here and there for exposure was more likely to net you work because there was more demand for hire - thus exposing your work to a wider audience could net you results. These days that whole market has changed - photographers are a dime a dozen as a photos themselves. As a result exposure has far far less chance of netting you further work unless its within very specific target markets. 
Is free school photos going to get you more work? Probably not at all because the parents won't see your name - won't see you as a working pro, just one of the other parents who shot the school photos. Further if all the distribution is by the school most probably won't even learn of your name should they even want to hire you (plus if they were to inquire and found that you just did the photos for free that is likely the price they could value your work at if they approached you). 

I think there is a trap many new people in a business (any business) can get into which is the concept that they need to take on ANY work they can get no matter the amount they will get paid in. This is very dangerous and shows that the person hasn't sat down to work out their costs and needs to earn and thus put a value upon their time. It's a very quick way to running yourself down because you end up scraping the barrel financially and also working harder and harder to the point where you'd earn more and work less stacking shelves. 
Work out a value for your time and charge accordingly and if the client won't pay - move on. Stretch the net wider and find clients who will; whilst also picking your discounted service offers and free offers carefully .


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## DanPower (May 20, 2012)

> I would counter and say that if the school has taken money for the service then the service should be paid for and delivered as promised and that, *speaking as a parent of one of the children (who's fees you've paid for) you're rather displeased that the school would take money from you for a service and then try to flounce paying for that service.*




+1, excellent thinking


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 20, 2012)

Wow! 

I would tell her that she shouldn't  use the children as a tool to manipulate people. Tell her to go ahead and use her $30 camera to take the class pictures. 
She can deal with any possible wraith from the other parents for poor quality images.

What a ***tty thing to do!


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## IByte (May 20, 2012)

Don't be a sucker, they are feeding your ego and laying down a guilt trip. There is nothing wrong with building a portfolio or gaining exposure, but camera equipment isn't cheap nor is a mortgage payment.  Do your research and get an average of what other people are charging on the internets and good luck.


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## Tight Knot (May 20, 2012)

I'd like to thank everyone for their advice. All of it excellent!!
I may still do it, and give the parents the watermarked copies, and if they want photos without the watermark over the face, I'll charge them for that. This way, the school can take the slack for not paying the photographer out of the money already paid for that (if the school actually gives the photographs to the parents), and the parents can then purchase whatever they want from me.
I win, in that I get the experience, the income (if anyone buys), and the name of not being a pushover who does free work. They won't try that stunt with me again. The school wins, because they don't have to use the money that was given to them for photos, and they lose when the parents find out, and the poor parents at least have an option of buying something they should get for free, but at least they're not getting junk for having paid money to get.
What do you all think of this route?


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## Overread (May 20, 2012)

Risky.

First up consider that, as a parent, if you paid the school for photos and were under the impression that this also came with prints and then you were to get a tiny, heavily watermarked photo, you'd be pretty upset.

Now normally they'll complain to the school who would then have to sort things out. However its not just watermarked with some photographers name, its watermarked with YOUR name. This means a segment of the parents are going to know that its you, a fellow parent, of the students who took those photos and they will likely come right to you wanting an explanation of why you are charging your fellow parents extra (ie ontop of what, they assume, the school has paid you). Furthermore the school will be on your case because you won't be delivering what was agreed (which is print ready photos with £0 fee to yourself).

It's a messy situation and one you are unlikely to come out of with many friends - I think you've far more ground to cover by raising the question of why the school are not paying you before hand when they have already charged you (as a parent) for this service. If they refuse to pay for your services just walk away - the potential for a bad reputation (if you get a bad rep with the school that will pass around the other schools in the area) is just too great.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 20, 2012)

I wouldn't do it. Period.


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## HughGuessWho (May 20, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I wouldn't do it. Period.



Ditto. I would NOT allow them to manipulate me with my son. They are doing wrong and now they are trying to get you involved to be their fall guy. I would have a chat with my son, explain WHY you weren't going to do it and tell the teacher. "Sorry, I will have to pass".


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## o hey tyler (May 20, 2012)

Don't do it. Children are not devices to use for personal gain, especially if it's someone elses child (yours). That's just effed up. You should also make that quite blatantly clear to her.


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## KmH (May 20, 2012)

Watch this video several times -  (*Warning* - **** profanity in video title)

 [video]http://vimeo.com/22053820[/video]


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## Kerbouchard (May 20, 2012)

Personally, I would tell them no as a photographer, and as a parent, I would dig out my contract and demand professional quality photos.


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## 2WheelPhoto (May 20, 2012)

Don't be surpised if you don't agree to shoot it for free you'll find many BestBuy photographers stepping up to the plate to take her offer for the "exposure".


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## Tarayn (May 20, 2012)

m





katerolla said:


> what a guilt trip, would your teacher tutor your son for free since it will cost her nothing. the photographic industry has taken a huge hit in the last few yreas because of thoughts like this, there is no need to cheapen the industry even more, your time is worth just as much as hers and any one elses who needs to pay their bills.


yea that is so grimey. I know how being in that situation feels, and sure to everybody else it seems so logical to just be like no and go off on the teacher, but when you are personally in that situation, you remember that the teachers a human being too. I think you should say no, and if you want to,explain and reason to her all the time and effort that it takes in what you do briefly, and even if she is upset you still walk away not looking like a jerk and not wasting your time and money. (then talk to your son)


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## Tight Knot (May 20, 2012)

Thank you all very much for your help. It's always great to have others who are not mired in the problem like I am and who are out of the situation looking in, to be able to put things in true perspective.
I will not do the job, and if the teacher has the gall to ask me why, I will explain nicely but firmly, that what she did is demeaning to me, to herself, to the parents and to the school, and exceptionally unfair to my son (who will get his own personal photoshoot). And then, leave it at that. I have much bigger battles to fight.


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## CCericola (May 20, 2012)

Unless you are going into school photography which is an entirely different industry than portrait photography then you don't need the "experience" 

Quietly speak to the teacher and director that you are disappointed that they tried to use your child to manipulate you and hope these are not the values they are teaching your child.

Also, unless your contract specifically itemizes exactly what your $120 activity fee is supposed to be used for then there is no reason to assume there will be portraits done. So the teacher using her $30 camera is just fine.

Just politely say unfortunately circumstances make it impossible for you to donate your services at this time. They have no business knowing what those circumstances are. 

So, in the end. If you want to donate them, then donate them. Don't be an ass with the whole watermark and low res nonsense.


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## Steve5D (May 20, 2012)

I can't imagine a scenario in which I would feel compelled to do this.

Also, at this point, no further conversation with the teacher would be taking place. Instead, I would bring this to the school board and address it to the Superintendent in front of other parents. I would explain why something that parents paid for would not be forthcoming.

If you decide to do it, what says the watermark has to be your name? Watermark the school's name directly over the face of each kid. This way, you would be providing photos to the school, and the school would have the pictures that the parents paid for to provide to them. If the school doesn't like it, well, that's just too bad.

The other thing I would consider is the fact that the current agreement for what parents get for $120.00 is an agreement that did not, and does not, pertain to you. They are in no position to dictate what you can and cannot do with the photos. In short, if they allow you to shoot, you can sell the photos to the parents, and the school can do nothing to prevent you from doing that...


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## IByte (May 20, 2012)

The only way I would accept this assignment if my child was going to a private school, and they were willing to cut my kid's tuition by 1/4 - 1/2 licensing the pictures only.


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## Balmiesgirl (May 25, 2012)

Tight Knot said:
			
		

> Thank you all very much for your help. It's always great to have others who are not mired in the problem like I am and who are out of the situation looking in, to be able to put things in true perspective.
> I will not do the job, and if the teacher has the gall to ask me why, I will explain nicely but firmly, that what she did is demeaning to me, to herself, to the parents and to the school, and exceptionally unfair to my son (who will get his own personal photoshoot). And then, leave it at that. I have much bigger battles to fight.



You are wise to not allow yourself to be manipulated by the teacher. Odds are that you would be the bad guy in the other parents eyes in the end. Bad publicity is worse than no publicity....


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## c.cloudwalker (May 25, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Wow!
> 
> I would tell her that she shouldn't  use the children as a tool to manipulate people. Tell her to go ahead and use her $30 camera to take the class pictures.
> She can deal with any possible wraith from the other parents for poor quality images.
> ...



:thumbup:


OP = Tell the idiot to go take a walk on the wild side.


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## IByte (May 25, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:
			
		

> :thumbup:
> 
> OP = Tell the idiot to go take a walk on the wild side.



Long live the Lou Reed


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## PhotoTish (May 25, 2012)

This seems to be the teacher's idea rather than a request from the school itself but if the school is collecting $120 from all the parents on the understanding that a free school photograph is provided and if in previous years a professional photographer has been hired to take the photographs then what happened to the photography budget this year?  I think you have made a wise decision not to go ahead with this.  :thumbup:


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## Mike_E (May 27, 2012)

First, are you in the US?  I did a Google search for Katsrin and came up with a settlement in Israel and am wondering if a course of action here in the states would play the same in Israel.

Regardless, If it were me I would go ahead and do the shoot (assuming that I wasn't already engaged) and when I had the disk ready, I'd be wanting to speak with Whomever was in the highest position of authority in the school system before handing them over to THAT person.  But, having in fact taken the photos I would have quashed any future issues with my child.

Whenever I got to speak with whomever is in charge, depending on how the conversation progressed during the first minute or two, I would either have a paying job the next year or I would have my money's worth by giving somebody a piece of my 'very fertile mind'.

Either way, waiting until the last possible minute to hand over the disk I'd be in the position to dictate terms and one way or another I'd get 'paid' and since if I had already paid for MY child's pictures, getting a full accounting of where MY money had gone would be a portion of that payment.​


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## shefjr (May 27, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> I would counter and say that if the school has taken money for the service then the service should be paid for and delivered as promised and that, speaking as a parent of one of the children (who's fees you've paid for) you're rather displeased that the school would take money from you for a service and then try to flounce paying for that service.


^ I would do this.

Mike_e what you're talking about sounds like coercion, that's bad form IMO. However deserving this school may be of it, it wouldn't be a good reputation builder for the OP. just my .02


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## Overread (May 27, 2012)

Mike_E - the problem is if you walk up and, knowing all the facts, are hired for a job at an agreed price (even if the price is £0) and then refuse to deliver the goods its you who are in the wrong. Whilst you might have a moral right its stronger if exercised before taking on the job (in this situation). Trying to do it after just generates too much possible blame and also means that you're likely to be the one that walks away with the worsened reputation.


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## Mike_E (May 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> Mike_E - the problem is if you walk up and, knowing all the facts, are hired for a job at an agreed price (even if the price is £0) and then refuse to deliver the goods its you who are in the wrong. Whilst you might have a moral right its stronger if exercised before taking on the job (in this situation). Trying to do it after just generates too much possible blame and also means that you're likely to be the one that walks away with the worsened reputation.



I didn't say that I wouldn't hand over the work, in fact what I said was that I would.  I would just want to make sure that I was able to speak with whomever was in charge.

As a parent I would want to know where my money went.  As a photographer I would want the powers that be to know I was really unhappy to be railroaded into doing the work and having the respect of my child used against me.  Probably unhappy to the point that I would want somebody either fired or suspended.

If the conversation with the PTB were amiable I would then offer to do next years shoot as a reasonable rate- just not for free.

In either case I'd be lighting somebody up for trying to extort =[h=3]_
(__ex·tort_/ik&#712;stôrt/[/h][h=3]
[/h]
Verb:
Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.
Synonyms:wring - exact - blackmail - force



my time and money by using my child against me.


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## Tight Knot (May 28, 2012)

At the end, I simply told her I wouldn't do the job. She didn't ask why and I didn't explain. If she would have asked, I would have given a very lively explanation. At this point, i will wait to see what type of photo of my son i get from the school, and then decide whether to complain or not. If the photo is sub-par, I will then go to the correct authority to complain about the photo, and the way I was treated. Otherwise, even though I am quite angry, I really have far more important things to be battling. I spoke to my son, and from what he told me, the teacher never spoke to him about me doing the shoot, so it was just a lie to try and coerce me. Bad, but not as bad as if she had actually spoken to him.


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## IByte (May 28, 2012)

Tight Knot said:
			
		

> At the end, I simply told her I wouldn't do the job. She didn't ask why and I didn't explain. If she would have asked, I would have given a very lively explanation. At this point, i will wait to see what type of photo of my son i get from the school, and then decide whether to complain or not. If the photo is sub-par, I will then go to the correct authority to complain about the photo, and the way I was treated. Otherwise, even though I am quite angry, I really have far more important things to be battling. I spoke to my son, and from what he told me, the teacher never spoke to him about me doing the shoot, so it was just a lie to try and coerce me. Bad, but not as bad as if she had actually spoken to him.



Well said and glad you stood up to the machine


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