# What did I do wrong?  (developing)



## Josh66 (Jun 16, 2011)

(The frame numbers are so high because I use bulk rolls.  Efke numbers their frames up to 82 on bulk rolls.)

My film came out looking like that.  (That's just a scan through the neg sleeve.)  It's Efke KB 50.  If you haven't used that film before, it's normally clear after developing.

I used Kodak Kodafix (which I mixed on 3/14/11).  I tested it with hypo check, and that came back clear (though the fixer is starting to get a little discolored).

Is it bad/old fixer, or maybe not stopped good enough?


First time I've ever had this happen, and I must not be using the right search terms because I can't find anything online...


edit
More details:
1-  Efke KB 50 developed in HC-110 (dilution B) (30 seconds, then 5 seconds every 30 seconds), 5 minutes, 27 deg C (decreased time due to temp.).

2-  1 minute in Kodak Indicator Stop Bath (30 seconds agitation) (I normally do 2 minutes, for for some reason I only did 1 minute this time...  This was the first time I've done that, which is making me wonder if that's the problem).

3-  10 minutes in Kodak Kodafix (30 seconds, then 5 seconds every minute).

4-  20-30 minute rinse in room temperature tap water.

5-  2 minute soak in distilled water with photo-flo (200+1).

6-  Drip dry, 1 hour.


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## Josh66 (Jun 16, 2011)

Here's the actual scan from that frame:



06161121 by J E, on Flickr

Looks normal enough...



The only thing I'm really worried about is that maybe I didn't leave it in the stop bath long enough and the developer might be still working it's magic...  Is that an issue, or am I worrying about nothing?


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## Pgeobc (Jun 16, 2011)

I haven't developed film in years, but when I did, I almost never used stop bath (just water). Developers work only at high pH (>7.0) and pH is a dilution-dependent phonomenon. By fixing and adequately washing, you will have neutralized and removed any alkali and/or developer.


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## Helen B (Jun 16, 2011)

Is it improperly fixed - ie is the base partly opaque? I don't use hypo check (which may not detect all fixer problems) but I do test the film leader then fix for two (conventional films) or three (films like T-Max) times the time it took to clear the leader. Once the test clearing time has doubled from fresh fixer I discard the fixer. I also use the two-bath fixing method (old fixer used first, fresh fixer used second) just to be on the safe side (and it does economize on fixer use).

Best,
Helen


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## Josh66 (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks guys.

The base is brownish yellow.  Normally, this film is almost entirely clear after fixing.  I'll try snipping a leader and see what happens to it...  (Basically, everything you see on that picture I posted that isn't some shade of gray should be completely clear.)

The fixer is kinda old (3 months)...  I don't have any fresh fixer to try, but I'll be ordering some this weekend.

I fixed for 10 minutes, which is normally more than enough for any film I've used...  (At least twice the time to clear, 3 times for some films ... though I haven't tested this fixer in a while - I'll do that tonight.  Right now, actually...  Well, right after I cook dinner, lol.)


edit
People on Flickr (asked there too) are saying it looks like a heat related issue.  This roll was at 27 degrees (fixer and stop were likely hotter than that).  I have developed at 25 before without issue...  Can 2 degrees really make that much of a difference?


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## Josh66 (Jun 16, 2011)

This is a really crappy scan, but here it is after 10 minutes in the same fixer I used:



efke 50 leader test by J E, on Flickr

Now, when I develop, the developer comes out magenta when I dump it, so I assume that it wouldn't look so pink if I put it in developer too.

edit
I forgot to take the temperature of the fixer this time...


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## Helen B (Jun 16, 2011)

When you say the base is normally clear do you mean colourless and fully transparent? If the base is fully transparent but coloured then it probably isn't inadequate fixing. If it has been properly fixed and washed there might not be much to worry about - just some remaining anti-halation or sensitizing dye. If it is inadequate fixing then it is easy enough to re-fix and re-wash it. Difficult to tell from the scans, so what is the difference between the fixed leader and the developed and fixed frames?

Best,
Helen


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## Josh66 (Jun 16, 2011)

I apologize for the sub-par scan (and it is - I know), but I mainly just wanted to be able to post some sort of visual reference.



Helen B said:


> When you say the base is normally clear do you mean colourless and fully transparent?


Yes.  But more like 100% transparent, 90% colorless.  Much more clear than what you see in my scan.  There is normally a very slight grayish-purple color cast (like many other B&W films, but much more clear) - without close examination, it looks perfectly clear though.  Just a thin transparent and colorless strip of polyester (?).



Helen B said:


> so what is the difference between the fixed leader and the developed and fixed frames?


The only real difference is the yellow/brown 'staining'.  The bit of leader that I put in the fixer looks perfectly clear, though it is magenta.  But, like I said, the developer comes out that color, so I assume that the developer takes *that* off of the film.  The developed and fixed frames look clear enough, but they have discoloration.  Almost like a nicotine stain.

The general consensus from the people on Flickr is heat.  One person said that they had similar results when developing film in Peru.  I live in Texas, and "room temperature" is 80-85 degrees F here (when it's 100+ outside, the A/C has a hard time keeping up - and 80 still feels pretty good compared to 100).  All chemicals I use are room temperature, except for tap water that I mix in with the developer.  My "cold" tap water is about 80 degrees F.  (Nice benefit is that you can take a shower without using any hot water - save a few bucks on the power bill, lol.)

Does this look consistent with something you would get developing film at higher than normal temperatures?



BTW - that leader did take longer than expected to clear.  5-6 minutes.  I think that's a good sign that my fixer is getting old.  I seem to remember it only taking 2-3 minutes when it was fresh.


Maybe a combination of bad fixer and heat?  Or just bad fixer?


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## Josh66 (Jun 17, 2011)

I guess I'm going to go with the temperature issue...

The fixer still seems to be OK (I did order a new bottle though).  Ice bath for developing from now on when it's this hot, lol.

Ordered a C-41 kit too - the heat here should help with that.  


And I think I'm going to start storing my chemicals in the refrigerator from now on...  It will be easier to just wait for them to warm up to temp that trying to cool them down once they're too hot.


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## iinanking (Jun 20, 2011)

Not rinsing off the developer or using enough stop shouldn't effect the pic that way. It does make your fixer go bad at a much quicker rate though and it does look as though you maybe didn't fix long enough or the fixer was bad.


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## BlackSheep (Jun 20, 2011)

It's the temperature that you are developing the film at, as you said. I've seen it before, and if I'm remembering correctly the warm stop bath causes the staining. I can't remember exactly, but it has something to do with the acidity of the stop. (it's been a few years though, so take this part for the $0.02 it's worth, minus a few years worth of inflation).

I also noticed that your neg seems overdeveloped, even though you are adjusting for the higher temperature. If you look at the frame numbers, they all have that grey halo - that's a symptom of overdeveloped film. If you keep the chemicals in the fridge as you mentioned, and develop at a lower temp (I always worked at 21 deg.C, or about 75-ish I think?), you should be ok, but you may want to revisit your development time if that grey halo doesn't go away.

Oh and incidentally, the developer rinsing out pink can be normal for some (but not all) film types, for example Kodak T-max used to be like that, but none of the Ilford films were.


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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2011)

BlackSheep said:


> I also noticed that your neg seems overdeveloped, even though you are adjusting for the higher temperature. If you look at the frame numbers, they all have that grey halo - that's a symptom of overdeveloped film. If you keep the chemicals in the fridge as you mentioned, and develop at a lower temp (I always worked at 21 deg.C, or about 75-ish I think?), you should be ok, but you may want to revisit your development time if that grey halo doesn't go away.


I'm sure it is a little over-developed...  The correct time at 20 degrees would have been 7 minutes (I think - going from memory here).  The adjusted time _should_ have been closer to 3 1/2 minutes, but I didn't want it go go under 5 minutes so I figured a little over-development would be OK.  I should have probably used a different dilution to allow for a longer time...


Also, with the frame numbers - that may be partly just how the film is.  I have noticed that the frame numbers and other markings on Efke film are kinda random - sometimes they're nice and sharp/well defined, other times they're out of focus/scratched up...  You can see it a little on the picture I posted.  The '75' on the top looks sharp (though it does have scratch marks around it), but the one on the bottom is fuzzy.  The '76' is an even better example...



BlackSheep said:


> Oh and incidentally, the developer rinsing out pink can be normal for some (but not all) film types, for example Kodak T-max used to be like that, but none of the Ilford films were.


Efke always does that with HC-110 for me (but it rinses clear with Xtol & ID-11 - the only other developers I have used on it).

edit


BlackSheep said:


> It's the temperature that you are developing  the film at, as you said. I've seen it before, and if I'm remembering  correctly the warm stop bath causes the staining. I can't remember  exactly, but it has something to do with the acidity of the stop. (it's  been a few years though, so take this part for the $0.02 it's worth,  minus a few years worth of inflation).



You know, that is pretty much the same color as the stop bath...  I wonder if that's why the stain is the color it is...?

Just kind of rambling here...lol.  It might be totally unrelated, but it struck me as an odd coincidence.


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## SilverEF88 (Jun 20, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> BlackSheep said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and incidentally, the developer rinsing out pink can be normal for some (but not all) film types, for example Kodak T-max used to be like that, but none of the Ilford films were.
> ...



Alright so I can't see clearly enough to make an seemingly educated guess about your problem what did strike me was you talking about having the discolored developer.  When I use Efke I always do a 1 minute water rinse before I hit it with developer.  From what I know and what I have learned this works in two different ways to help with the efke:

1.  It rinses off all that dye or whatever it is which, IMO, can't be good for the developer or stop in the long run.

2.  My professor taught me to do the water rinse with all film because it helps the developer work because the emulsion is already wet.  

Might give it a try as far as temp...I am not sure I usually develop at 25c or even 23c and have never run into a problem.

Hope you figure it out, I really enjoy hearing from someone else who is shooting with Efke.


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## Josh66 (Jun 21, 2011)

Yeah, I might have to start giving it a pre-wash.  It can't hurt, anyway...

So far, Efke is the only B&W film I have noticed changing the color of the developer...

I don't reuse my developer (I do reuse the stop & fix though), so I never really worried about it much...



It's weird - it's blue (the film) when it goes in, red when the developer comes out, and clear after fixing.


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## SilverEF88 (Jun 21, 2011)

It is strange, the first time I developed it I dumped out the pre-wash and was like "oh s***, what the hell did I do"?  I figured it out quickly but it definitely made my heart skip a few beats..


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## dxqcanada (Jun 21, 2011)

Hmm, pre-wash ... I do recall when I processed Agfa APX that colour of the water was initially very dark in colour then eventually cleared.


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