# Is this site for people to get valid feedback or for others to get on their high hors



## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.

*However* it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people (on a personal level)

This is a BEGINNERS forum, and if people can't give constructive feedback then they shouldn't bother.

My Mum always told me... "if you can't say anything nice, then keep quiet" (joke btw)

Thank you for your time, and I hope you enjoyed my rant!


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## KmH (Jul 30, 2011)

Why is it so many new members just don't get it.

Art is totally judgemental.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

I guess it's about time for this thread again, eh?


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## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

Judging people's work is ok... but judging people who you don't know isn't...
You, KmH are one of the good guys!!


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.
> 
> *However* it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people.
> 
> ...



Your mum clearly wasn't an artist.

Constructive feedback isn't always POSITIVE feedback.

Constructive NEGATIVE feedback is often times interpreted by newbies as "rude/nasty" comments.

"If you can't say anything nice, then keep quiet", is *not* how one should approach C&C.  If you want *CONSTRUCTIVE* feedback, you should ENCOURAGE people to say "not so nice" things... not to shut up.

It's the only way *I've* gotten better over my time here.

Compliments are nice.

Someone handing my ass to me over a photo is better.


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## kundalini (Jul 30, 2011)

> *Is this site for people to get valid feedback or for others to get on their high hors*


Do you mean like *Hors d'oeuvre*?

Whose been rude to you? C'mon.... cough up a name or two.


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## nickzou (Jul 30, 2011)

I disagree with OP's premise. I joined this forum to improve my skills. Not so we can circle jerk at our "pwetty pictures", there's flickr and Deviantart for that. I've learned a lot more from just reading posts, critiques, and getting critiques myself than I ever did in my photography course. When I post something here and ask for C&C I'm always glad when someone gives me something to build off of.


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## mrpink (Jul 30, 2011)

e.rose said:


> I guess it's about time for this thread again, eh?



Yeah... it has been almost a full week.






p!nK


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## 480sparky (Jul 30, 2011)

If you're going to ask for C&C, then prepare to either crawl into a corner a cry or grow thicker skin.

If a response such as "It's oversaturated" or "Everything is out of focus" can easily be taken as rudeness.  however, it's simply a statement and should be taken as such.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> Judging people's work is ok... but judging people who you don't know isn't...
> You, KmH are one of the good guys!!



It's the interwebz dude.

There are good guys, neutral guys, assholes, and everyone's got something to say.

For the assholes, make liberal use of the ignore button or just fill this out:









Seriously.  Starting threads like this aren't going to accomplish anything.  No one is going to change the way they critique just because one (more) person decided to preach about it.

Ignore button... or above form... those are the only options.


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## nickzou (Jul 30, 2011)

480sparky said:


> If a response such as "It's oversaturated" or "Everything is out of focus" can easily be taken as rudeness.



How is that rude? That's very informative if the photos are in fact oversaturated and out of focus. "It sucks", now that's rude.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

nickzou said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > If a response such as "It's oversaturated" or "Everything is out of focus" can easily be taken as rudeness.
> ...



Even *I* still take "it sucks" as valid feedback.  I've been told that more times than I can count on both hands.  

Newbies think anything negative is rude because there's NO WAY there can be something wrong with the image after they bought their new, fancy, magical, camera that does all!


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## 480sparky (Jul 30, 2011)

nickzou said:


> How is that rude? That's very informative if the photos are in fact oversaturated and out of focus. "It sucks", now that's rude.



There are some who equate plain, simple statements that are true with being a rude comment.  If they can't get over it from total strangers who merely want to help them, I shudder to think what will happen when paying customers see their results.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 30, 2011)

Threads like this land the OP's on my ignore list.


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## kundalini (Jul 30, 2011)

BTW, HB Bitter.   

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/off-topic-chat/251914-happy-ing-birthday.html


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## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

As I said in my initial post the feedback part isn't an issue.  It's people being judgemental on a personal level.  But hey ho...  Example is being told that if you don't have a lot of money then you shouldn't take up photography.  That is, in my opinion, not contructive feedback.

If you feel so strongly that this thread is a waste of time then don't waste your times responding to it....?

*Hors d'oeuvre*?
Oui....  There wasn't enough space for me to add the e....

Gonna be fun reading!


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## kundalini (Jul 30, 2011)

> Example is being told that if you don't have a lot of money then you shouldn't take up photography. That is, in my opinion, not contructive feedback.


I believe that thread was essentially about pirating a copy of CS5. Stating that the hobby of photography is expensive IS fact. It IS constructive to let people know that to get results they dream of is costly.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

How about...

If you don't have a lot of money, then learn how to save and learn how to work with the sh*t you got** until you have enough money to upgrade, or don't pick up photography.

I'm poor as sh*t.  I agree with Kundalini's statement above.  I save.  I use what I have.  Then I save some more.






**Poor grammar intentional for emphasis.


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## lyonsroar (Jul 30, 2011)

I like your avatar.


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## Railphotog (Jul 30, 2011)

Boy, does this take me back to my early days in camera clubs!  We'd bring slides for members to critique, and I still recall how some who were so proud of their ordinary snapshots got all uptight when they were told the truth.   Guess the snaps impressed their friends and family, but not a bunch of photographers!   These were the type of members who never stayed around very long.


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## elifant (Jul 30, 2011)

If I've been here a week, and am not butt hurt, does that mean I have promise as a photographer?


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## lyonsroar (Jul 30, 2011)

Railphotog said:


> These were the type of members who never stayed around very long.



They still are...


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## lyonsroar (Jul 30, 2011)

kundalini said:


> > *Is this site for people to get valid feedback or for others to get on their high hors*
> 
> 
> Do you mean like *Hors d'oeuvre*?
> ...



Na...he means "high whores"
just a spelling error...give him a break...you big meanie


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## MWC2 (Jul 30, 2011)

Railphotog said:


> Boy, does this take me back to my early days in camera clubs!  We'd bring slides for members to critique, and I still recall how some who were so proud of their ordinary snapshots got all uptight when they were told the truth.   Guess the snaps impressed their friends and family, but not a bunch of photographers!   These were the type of members who never stayed around very long.



I joined a local camera club just to get honest feedback, if it wasn't for local photographers at the monthly meetings and people on photography forums pointing out what I need to work on, I still would be taking out of focus snap shots of my children shot using the auto setting on my camera.  I don't need hand holding and praise (I have a wonderful supportive husband and family for that) I need someone with no emotional ties to the subjects in my photos telling me "hey what if you tried x,y or z"


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## brandibell (Jul 30, 2011)

If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen. What you may think is rude is just others being blunt and honest. Not everyone is going to love your work or sugar coat their criticism. The only way for one to improve is to know what they are doing wrong. Also online you are going to come across all kinds of people, if you think someone is rude like others stated ignore them. But if you listen to what others are saying about your work and respond with a positive attitude and open mind instead of whining about 'people being rude' you will learn a lot as there are many very talented and knowledgeable photographers in this forum.


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## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

I give up.  You don't get what I'm saying do you?
I LOVE feedback.  It doesn't bother me.  I come from working in a harsh business environment until I had children and moved to France.
Negative feedback isn't negative, as long as you learn from it.  Even things I disagree with I like to hear because it's an opinion.

My point was people don't need to be nasty/b***y on a personal level.  Especially to young people on here (not myself).  They are on here trying to learn/develop/improve themselves and their photography skills.

And to get good results doesn't always cost a fortune.  There are plenty of photographers who have made amazing images without spending loads.  Although obviously it helps.

Most of the people on here aren't claiming to be professionals.


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## brandibell (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:
			
		

> I give up.  You don't get what I'm saying do you?
> I LOVE feedback.  It doesn't bother me.  I come from working in a harsh business environment until I had children and moved to France.
> Negative feedback isn't negative, as long as you learn from it.  Even things I disagree with I like to hear because it's an opinion.
> 
> ...



Have you ever thought maybe you are taking things wrong? When you are reading peoples posts it's hard to tell what tone they are using, and therefore could be completely misinterpreting the post. I have read a few posts where yes the poster was out right rude to the OP usually though it's when they write a stupid statement etc.  but I find the majority of the time everyone is very helpful.


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 30, 2011)

kundalini said:


> > Example is being told that if you don't have a lot of money then you shouldn't take up photography. That is, in my opinion, not contructive feedback.
> 
> 
> I believe that thread was essentially about pirating a copy of CS5. Stating that the hobby of photography is expensive IS fact. It IS constructive to let people know that to get results they dream of is costly.



While that wasn't a statement of mine, if this rant is about the pirating software thread, then I am one of the more judgemental people on the topic.  I didn't say it in the other thread, but I probably should have.  I believe people who pirate software are scum.  I believe people who advise others on how to pirate software and think there is nothing wrong with it should be banned and/or arrested.

People who think they deserve other people's work for nothing are everything that is wrong with this world.  They have bankrupted Greece, just about bankrupted Europe, and want to send the U.S. down the same path.

Freaking scum.

If you find it offensive that I judge somebody on a personal level because of their illegal activities, I would say get over it.  

I also judge photos harshly and expect mine to be judged by the same standard.  If I wanted somebody to say 'nice photo', I would put it on facebook.  I would hope that people come on this forum to get better.  I am sure that I am on several people's ignore list.  That doesn't bother me.


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## hayleyfraser24 (Jul 30, 2011)

Ok, I wasnt going to post but I feel after reading all that now I feel I have to say my piece. Im very new, ive been photographing since April and I too have had a few comments made about my camera equipment not being that great.. I have a sony dslr. I personaly love my camera and its all I can afford! I think in the long run you will learn alot from working within your means, I believe you may even learn better as you will have to work a bit harder to achieve the results you want! So I have never taken a comment like that personally. All comments I have recieved, the good, bad and ugly have been constructive and helped me, I have witnessed some comments on other threads though for example "is that all youve got" and I thought... oooh thats a bit mean! And only because they made that comment and then didnt say why the photo was bad or what could have been better. So I do know what you mean indoili, and I think most people will take the good with the bad and ignore anything that has not been constructive, but I think its important to remember that this is not a photography school and no-one has to sugar coat their comments. It is other peoples opinions so there will always be diversity... and as said in a previous post "its the internet" Also sometimes things can be "read the wrong way" if that makes sense, I have done that before where I assumed a response was angry when in fact it was just direct and to the point. your post caused a bit of a debate but I do know where you are coming from  As a newbee though I have learned alot from the "good guys" on this forum and have grown some thick skin too!


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## joealcantar (Jul 30, 2011)

"A week without constructive criticism makes one weak".
-
Shoot well, Joe


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## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

eeeh by gum... this has been an interesting read.

C&C on my photo's does not offend me in any way.

People being rude to young girls on here does offend me. They are trying to improve their skills!!!

People assuming I am stealing photoshop offends me. My friend gave me a copy, it didn't work properly, I was asking advice on getting my own copy but everyone stated making judgements.
The original copy of photoshop is now working fine as i have downloaded the correct version for the serial number i was given. (Legal, she paid for it, she can put it on whatever laptops she wants)

I thank you all for your time!


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> eeeh by gum... this has been an interesting read.
> 
> C&C on my photo's does not offend me in any way.
> 
> ...


I don't see any issue with a person buying a used copy of Photoshop, calling up the Adobe guys(who are really cool), and getting some help installing it.  I don't think anybody even judged you harshly on that thread.

In any case, if the comments on that thread pertaining to your used Photoshop bothered you, you might as well put me on ignore now...You are going to hate me if I ever critique one of your photos.  You are too thin-skinned for this hobby.  We have all been told our work sucked.  Most of us grew from it.  You want people to be nice to you, and it's hard to grow from people telling you, 'nice photo'.


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## indioli (Jul 30, 2011)

Would you be offended if i called u a thief?  I would imagine so.  And told you if you are are not wealthy enough then you are no good for the hooby you choose to persure?
That is a personal insult, and has nothing to do with my work!

The main point of my post was that THIS is not what the forum is about surely????  And yet I find myself wrapped up in it! ha ha!

But that's the joy of the written word... easily misread/misunderstood/misinterpreted.


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## mrpink (Jul 30, 2011)

bump for pointlessness.






p!nK


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## Malone (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> People being rude to young girls on here does offend me. They are trying to improve their skills!!!



Are you referring to yourself?  Sabrina?  K-burrito?  :lmao:  Age, gender, and race has nothing to do with the feedback people receive here.  It's how they present themselves, their work, and their intentions.  Whether it be getting butthurt over feedback they received, asked a basic question they should have either already known (such as when they present themselves as "professional") or could have easily Google'd and found the answer themselves, or simply started a useless thread to rant.  

Sometimes, people can be outright rude and nasty.  In those situations there is usually some history between the two posters or the targeted poster has developed a less than ideal rapport with the forum community.

If you don't like someone, simply put them on ignore - this has been said many, many times.  Usually not done, because some people enjoy the drama.



indioli said:


> Example is being told that if you don't have a lot of money then you shouldn't take up photography.  That is, in my opinion, not contructive feedback.
> Gonna be fun reading!



Typically this is done for couple of reasons - to put things into perspective for people interested in photography or the above mentioned "professionals" not having adequate equipment to serve paying clients.  And obviously, the software piracy comes in to play as well.


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> The main point of my post was that THIS is not what the forum is about surely????  And yet I find myself wrapped up in it! ha ha!


You chose to get wrapped up in it...first by caring what a guy said on an internet forum, and second by starting a thread about it.  I'm guilty of both...heck, I did it a few weeks ago.  It didn't help then, and it won't help you.


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## eUgalde13 (Jul 30, 2011)

My .02 for what I've seen in this forum and maybe what the OP is trying to say.


Negative unconstructive criticism on newbie's work:

-they're snapshots
-they look like *****
-not interesting pics here
-:thumbdown:


Negative Constructive criticism:

-they're snapshots, try framing your objective only.
-Very underexposed, try a higher ISO; shoot at a different angle.....
-Not very interesting but this is what worked for me, ........

A lot of the negative/rude comments are powered behind a screen via the internetzzzz, I really doubt they would use the same type of words in person.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> Would you be offended if i called u a thief?



That depends.  Was I pirating software when you called me a thief?


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## Quentin_Moyer (Jul 30, 2011)

This is getting amusing, especially because the other day a friend nearly tore my head off when I told him his photos lacked interesting content.


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## e.rose (Jul 30, 2011)

Quentin_Moyer said:


> This is getting amusing, especially because the other day a friend nearly tore my head off when I told him his photos lacked interesting content.



How dare you.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Jul 30, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Quentin_Moyer said:
> 
> 
> > This is getting amusing, especially because the other day a friend nearly tore my head off when I told him his photos lacked interesting content.
> ...



Yeah, I'm pretty much an animal.


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## mrpink (Jul 30, 2011)

Quentin_Moyer said:


> This is getting amusing, especially because the other day a friend nearly tore my head off when I told him his photos lacked interesting content.



I told my two year old the same thing.... she actually took it well.






p!nK


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## Quentin_Moyer (Jul 30, 2011)

mrpink said:


> Quentin_Moyer said:
> 
> 
> > This is getting amusing, especially because the other day a friend nearly tore my head off when I told him his photos lacked interesting content.
> ...



I wouldn't doubt it, nothing like a mad hipster with a camera.


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## DennyCrane (Jul 30, 2011)

If I want glowing, gushing adoration of my pictures, I show them to my mom. If I want to learn, I post them here and pray for some brutal critiques. The worst response I could ever get here is "they're really good!"... ugghhh

And software pirates should all be jailed in an Iraqi prison.


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## vtf (Jul 30, 2011)

Here I hoped this thread would be worth the 3 pages, but I find it lacking in composition and thought. Try reposting during a better time of day.


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## sleist (Jul 30, 2011)

I always miss these threads.  I need to stop taking so many pictures.


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## DDGphotos (Jul 30, 2011)

FOLKS! ! !   send ME all the Nasty, Rude, IDIOTIC, judgmental assholes  ! ! !   OHHH  and especially the ARROGANT ONES. PLEAASSSEE

I can handle it  TRUST ME ! ! ! !

I have no ego to attack, no FEELING to INSULT . . . . . . .


 MA HA HA HA HA HA HA ! !


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 30, 2011)

Is this site for people to get valid feedback?

No.

This site is best for watching train wrecks.

 To be honest.


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## Ballistics (Jul 30, 2011)

I think the issue lies in the fact that certain vets critique when never asked, or better yet give opinions about artistic value. The term beginner is relative and very subjective, but my idea of a beginner is someone who is trying to learn the basics, and are here to learn about the basics of the science, not the art. I see far too much terms like "boring" being used regarding a pic. If I ask for a critique on a picture, I would wan't to hear things regarding composition, exposure, focus etc. The fact that a picture is uninteresting to people is irrelevant to me and doesn't help anyone. Perfecting the science will lead to the development of artistic style. That's how I see it. Not saying I am right, or anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. But that's just my take on any art.

Edit: I left something important out; while there are elitists on here, there are self centered newbs who think they are the next Ansel Adams and do go overboard about people who do give legitimate advice. 999 Times out of 1000, if you are posting in the beginners section asking for a CC - it's because you need it. Instead, people fish around looking for compliments on their ugly kids, or ****ty landscape pics, etc. There's both ends of the extreme spectrum here, just do your best to be in the middle.   

Another thing I notice, there are "vets" here that get recognition for being helpful, but I am yet to see anything but condescending or non constructive comments from them. Also what others perceive as constructive is also subjective.  

I will say though, creating a thread about elitists is at this point cliche'. There are elitists for literally every topic and that is just the way it is. Instead of devoting time towards them, just ignore them. You are only shining a negative and self destructive light on yourself.

My 2 cents. (Its american currency, so take it for what its worth ;] )


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## manaheim (Jul 30, 2011)

indioli said:


> I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.
> 
> *However* it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people.
> 
> ...




Very very very few people on this forum have ANY idea as to 1. What art is, 2. What a "good" picture is, 3. How to properly give critique... yet LOTS AND LOTS of people on this forum seem to think they know a lot about all three.  Statistically speaking, anyone who posts here looking for feedback is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, because what little feedback they get that is useful will be lost... oh so very lost... in the sea of absolute garbage that spews forth from people's keyboards.

As far as constructive or not... get over it.  Being sensitive isn't going to get you anywhere.  Some of the best feedback in my life has come from people who were insanely harsh with me.  Get a thicker skin or get out of the game.  




KmH said:


> Why is it so many new members just don't get it.
> 
> Art is totally judgemental.



Yeah.  That art is always judging me.  

I believe you meant "subjective".


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## sleist (Jul 30, 2011)

Ballistics said:


> I think the issue ...
> [SNIP]



If you post a photo in an online photography forum, people are going to comment on it.  That's kind of the point isn't it?
You can agree, disagree, ignore - really doesn't matter.  You will know if the comment is good critique or not if you have half a brain and are willing to listen.
At some point, you will know what to ignore - not because it's wrong, but because you've grown enough as an artist to realize that you cannot - and should not - try to please everyone.
If you do try to please everyone, you'll just shoot the same crap as everyone else.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

sleist said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > I think the issue ...
> ...



You are missing my point.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

I got your point, but disagree. Learning the technical, does not lead to learning the creative side. Technical and  creative are separate entities. Tech can play a role in the creative  and vice versa, but it's never too early to learn the creative side. I don't care too much about technical aspects, so I mainly comment on creativity and composition. It's where I can be most helpful. It's also the hardest thing to learn,  I see every post in this section as wannabe artists, and the sad truth is a majority of people posting, ain't never gonna get it. The technical aspects of photography are pretty easy to learn.  I wouldn't even give technical the weight of being even half the battle.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I got your point, but disagree. Learning the technical, does not lead to learning the creative side. Technical and  creative are separate entities. Tech can play a role in the creative  and vice versa, but it's never too early to learn the creative side. I don't care too much about technical aspects, so I mainly comment on creativity and composition. It's where I can be most helpful. It's also the hardest thing to learn,  *I see every post in this section as wannabe artists, and the sad truth is a majority of people posting, ain't never gonna get it.* The technical aspects of photography are pretty easy to learn.  I wouldn't even give technical the weight of being even half the battle.



There's 2 sides to the coin, and while you disagree with me I actually agree with you to a degree. Especially the bold. As for me, I'm no artist. I don't plan on being one. But I disagree with you saying that technical is not half the battle. From what I read , it's the majority of the C&C comments from people here. "To centered, use the rule of thirds" "It's out of focus" "Poor Lighting"... I see this often. If all of these things were perfect, the only thing to talk about would be artistic value which at the end of the day, is pure opinion right? I'm no artist, but when I think musicians, photographers, painters, etc... the technical side is the base of their success. Also, isn't basic composition the science of photography?


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## pgriz (Jul 31, 2011)

indioli said:


> I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.
> 
> *However* it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people (on a personal level)
> 
> ...



@ OP: A few thoughts&#8230;

&#8220;high horse&#8221;? Maybe, but the wannabee&#8217;s get knocked off their high horse(s) fast enough. Those who manage to stay on have earned the right to be on said horse(s).


As Keith (KmH) has noted in the second post to this thread, ART is totally judgemental. And since every artist puts themselves into their art, judgements on the art also reflect onto the artist. Since critiquing is also an art (ie, subjective, open to interpretation, done with varying degrees of skill, etc.), judgments of critiques also reflect back onto the ones making the critiques. So there is really no way of escaping the process of the person getting judged. 


&#8220;rudeness&#8221; is subjective. It depends on the source. If someone who is a master in the field I&#8217;m trying to learn in, tells me that &#8220;You suck&#8221;, then I would consider that a fair comment, especially if I do indeed suck. If the same comment comes from someone who has no clue, then I can dismiss the comment as ignorant and rude. Therefore consider the source. 


There is another aspect to criticism. We seem to be in a society where building up of &#8220;self-esteem&#8221; is a desired end-goal in and of itself. But a high &#8220;self-esteem&#8221; without the necessary achievement is a hollow vessel, a deck of cards waiting to be blown down, a Potemkin village. It&#8217;s the school where 100% are above average. Criticism is one of the fires that either tempers the recipient, or burns them up. People don&#8217;t get to elite positions (in any field) without lots of hard work, lots of situations where everything conspires to knock them down, and lots of situations where most people would quit. The ones destined to become the elite don&#8217;t quit. They don&#8217;t whine either. They hunker down, endure the crap, and master the art in their field. The saying &#8220;Steel is tempered through fire&#8221; applies.


Your mother's advice is relevant in normal social interaction. When one comes to a forum such as this, I presume the goal is to get honest feedback and to assess whether one's impression of the "goodness" of one's art is matched by the other people in the forum. When someone says "oh, that's nice!", they are engaging in social interaction, not critique.


&#8220;&#8230; And to get good results doesn&#8217;t always cost a fortune&#8221; (post 26). True, but photography is a field with tools, and the quality of the tools affects the end result. Some results are only possible with the right tool. It is true that a talented artist can extract much more out of the use of any tool than would a less capable person, but it is also true that using the right tool for the job makes the job that much easier to achieve. 


@ ballistics: I have to agree with BJ. Technical quality and mastery of same is a precondition for good art. It doesn&#8217;t make art good. Whether it is photography, or wood-working, or playing the piano, or singing, doing something technically well does not mean the end result is emotionally engaging. And in the end, the difference between technical illustration and art is the degree of emotional response one gets. If the emotional response is lacking, then it&#8217;s not great art. Making an analogy to writing, good technical performance in photography is equivalent to writing complete sentences, using proper punctuation, not making spelling errors. Good writing goes beyond those basics, to engage the reader in a way that engages the mind, the emotions, and sometimes, the spirit. 


You are right in saying that the &#8220;the technical side is the BASE of their success.&#8221; But the real point is that the base is a foundation &#8211; it has to be strong to support whatever house you build upon it. It is the house that one notices (the composition, the arrangement of elements to give a pleasing or provocative end result), unless the foundation is flawed, in which case the whole structure is also flawed. Great images are like great architecture - you get the "WOW". Well-exposed, technically correct images are like well-built bungalows - comfortable and interesting to the inhabitant, but no-one else.  They are "snapshots".


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

A majority of CC here is technical, because that's easiest for most people to speak too, especially other beginners. RoT's is not technical, it's compositional. It's a basic, easily grasped, construct of composition. While it seems simple, it really has some deeper nuance that is missed by a lot of people. It's easily thrown about, just like the awesome "try a different angle". The technical stuff is easiest to help someone with. Focus and exposue is simple. It either is or it isn't. Lighting is more difficult, but it is still a fairly concrete concept. Composition isn't the science of photography. It is more psychological, but the concepts are backed by scientific studies. Composition is older than photography, and is used in all visual arts. Even music has similar theories of composition. For example, repitition, patterns, and pattern breaks. The technical side of any medium, speaks more to the process, the manipulation, or simply the "how to". Composition, creativity, communication via the visual language, and using them to "say" something, or evoke emotion is a whole different, complex, deep, nuanced animal, most will never fully grasp. When a visual art work is creative, evokes emotion, or a response from the viewer, the technical side can easily be overlooked and still be considered a successful work. While repeatedly making technically perfect images that lack substance, lack interest, and lack even a basic use of the visual language, will nearly always be failures.


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## Trever1t (Jul 31, 2011)

drama?


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## Gaerek (Jul 31, 2011)

Ballistics said:
			
		

> From what I read , it's the majority of the C&C comments from people here. "To centered, use the rule of thirds" "It's out of focus" "Poor Lighting"...



You believe these are technical issues, not artistic issues? Interesting...

The technical side is simply how you do something. The artistic side is _why_ you do something. RoT is good to know how to use. But as an artist you need to know why you use it and why in some circumstances you don't.

Bitter is correct. The technical aspect is a small part of photography. This is why artists who've never picked up a camera before can become amazing photographers. Whereas everyone else, who doesn't understand art focus only on what they can know and control. Camera operation can be taught very quickly and easily. Hell, I taught my brother manual exposure in under 30 minutes. If someone doesn't think artistically however, it's nearly impossible to teach that, and especially not on a beginners photography forum.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

Musical composition is mathematics and formulaic, which is obviously science. Same thing with visual arts composition, most of the elements of composition are broken down mathematically (Geometry,symmetry,rule of thirds/odds) but I know what you are getting at; it's how you use the basics to create something _different_. Personally though, I would rather perfect the science before I even think about getting creative. Everyone learns differently, and develops a style differently. 

In my opinion, if just the science was preached here(in the beginners forum), there would be a whole lot less conflict and it would allow for further creative development. I feel like people would get it faster. But, at the end of the day, photography is an art not a science. So maybe my theory is worthless, but I know for me, I will be doing my best to learn the technical side before I try to get fancy.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But its all subjective, you can't teach art because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, I would say light, focus, and rule of thirds is technical.Any rule for that matter is technical, because there is a right way and a wrong way to use them for the most part.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

Ballistics said:


> Musical composition is mathematics and formulaic, which is obviously science. Same thing with visual arts composition, most of the elements of composition are broken down mathematically (Geometry,symmetry,rule of thirds/odds) but I know what you are getting at; it's how you use the basics to create something _different_. Personally though, I would rather perfect the science before I even think about getting creative. Everyone learns differently, and develops a style differently.



You say it is obviously science. It is and it isn't. Science was used to describe and prove why, psychologically, off center things were typically more pleasing than centered subjects. Why people like art is far more psychological and emotional than scientific. Even with music. Yes, there is math behind it, but it in the end the reason people enjoy certain styles of music is psychological and emotional. If art and music were purely based on science and math, computers would be able to create extremely popular works of visual art and music. But alas, computers have yet to understand emotion. 



> In my opinion, if just the science was preached here(in the beginners forum), there would be a whole lot less conflict and it would allow for further creative development. I feel like people would get it faster. But, at the end of the day, photography is an art not a science. So maybe my theory is worthless, but I know for me, I will be doing my best to learn the technical side before I try to get fancy.


Looking at this in a scientific approach would not further creativity. Hell, look at all the BEGINNERS that *repeatedly* poo poo the RoT's!!! They say ignorant things like "rules were meant to be broken" even though they are still very ignorant of the science, the psychology, and the thousands of years proving why the RoT's IS effective. These people think is all about NOT following theories and "rules", but about simply being different for the sake of being different, rather than fully understanding the rules and theories, and *pushing* them further.

I'll keep in mind that you wish to only learn the technical aspect of photography _for now_, and refrain from providing you with C&C. I am not saying this to be a snot. Just let me know when you are willing to delve into the creative, compositional aspect of the art, and I will do my best to help you.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

Ballistics said:


> But its all subjective, you can't teach art because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And yes, I would say light, focus, and rule of thirds is technical.Any rule for that matter is technical, because there is a right way and a wrong way to use them for the most part.



Rule of thirds is NOT technical. Repeat as needed.

Art, or creativity *can* be taught, _absolutely_! Art uses a visual language that can be taught like any other language! How you use it, your results, or products of your understanding of that language, or the success of your products is what is subjectively viewed by others. It speaks to their tastes, what they respond too.  

But please understand "art can't be taught BECAUSE beauty is in the eye of the beholder" isn't a valid statement. It's not a causal relationship.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

Ballistics said:


> As for me, I'm no artist. I don't plan on being one.


Yet you are arguing*** about art with someone who has studied art nearly ALL their life, with someone who is successfully supporting themselves 100% with their art. 

***I use the word "arguing" as constructve debate/discussion, rather than it's negative connotation.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > As for me, I'm no artist. I don't plan on being one.
> ...



I see your argument, but you cannot discount the fact that there is a method for all types of composition. Any rule is technical, otherwise they wouldn't be called rules. Rules of space, thirds, odds, geometry/symmetry - There is a science to all of this. If not, why not?

I think we've reached a place where we agree to disagree. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, and I am willing to bet my month's income that you know way more than I do. However, I have the ability to draw a conclusion based on the information given. How are rules not technical? Obviously they aren't laws of physics, but I believe there is a great technical aspect to all art. If you are certain that I am **wrong**, I am all about being educated. I'm not like most of these people on here that have their ideas set in stone. I'm willing to be persuaded, but the value of that fact arrives at the strength of the argument. 

As for creativity deriving from technicality, I know from my own personal experience that my creativity (or what some call art) for anything that I do comes from being good at it technically. Maybe I am a rare case, but I can only go by personal experience. Repetition and monotonous actions become boring, and I try to find a different way to do the same thing.

I misrepresented my point about not being able to teach art, what I meant to say was you can't teach taste and you don't have to be an artist to understand art.


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## Ballistics (Jul 31, 2011)

> I'll keep in mind that you wish to only learn the technical aspect of photography _for now, and refrain from providing you with C&C. I am not saying this to be a snot. Just let me know when you are willing to delve into the creative, compositional aspect of the art, and I will do my best to help you._



Absolutely appreciated bitter. I sincerely mean that.


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## Virtuosos (Jul 31, 2011)

Rules of thirds is more of an idea for placement, or creativity. Technical seems alot more to deal with settings, speeds, colors, yadda yadda. But thats my opinion, and its definately not meant to be taken as a universal truth.

In the end, the photo you take is a balanced mix between creativity and technicality. Labeling what every thought/idea/rule/opinion that goes into the photo itself is a waste of time -shrug-


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## eUgalde13 (Jul 31, 2011)

Behold the power of longcat!! (click the bar)


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## indioli (Jul 31, 2011)

My goodness, you just made me wet myself.  You have way too much time on ur hands!
Lol


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## vonstarrphoto (Jul 31, 2011)

C&C should be about offering feedback and advice on a photo, that is what we want, not some idiot saying I dont like this photo, I wouldn't hang it on my wall?! I DON't care if you don't want to hang it on your wall lol I just want your feedback and technical advice! The problem is people don't know how to phrase stuff. Asking for help is different from asking for people to ***** at you.. I agree with the OP. People just need manners tha's all. A critique certainly DOESN'T need to be rude, just helpful!!!!!


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## MissCream (Jul 31, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> C&C should be about offering *feedback* and advice on a photo, that is what we want, not some idiot saying *I dont like this photo, I wouldn't hang it on my wall*?! I DON't care if you don't want to hang it on your wall lol I just want your *feedback* and technical advice! The problem is people don't know how to phrase stuff. Asking for help is different from asking for people to ***** at you.. I agree with the OP. People just need manners tha's all. A critique certainly DOESN'T need to be rude, just helpful!!!!!




That is feedback.


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## vonstarrphoto (Jul 31, 2011)

MissCream said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > C&C should be about offering *feedback* and advice on a photo, that is what we want, not some idiot saying *I dont like this photo, I wouldn't hang it on my wall*?! I DON't care if you don't want to hang it on your wall lol I just want your *feedback* and technical advice! The problem is people don't know how to phrase stuff. Asking for help is different from asking for people to ***** at you.. I agree with the OP. People just need manners tha's all. A critique certainly DOESN'T need to be rude, just helpful!!!!!
> ...



NO it is a completely irrelevant and un useful sentence that doesn't offer any technical help which is what was asked.... Oh My goodness how hard is it to read?!


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## MissCream (Jul 31, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> MissCream said:
> 
> 
> > vonstarrphoto said:
> ...



C&C= Critique and Comments
I dont like your photo = A comment.


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## Jarrod268 (Jul 31, 2011)

elifant said:


> If I've been here a week, and am not butt hurt, does that mean I have promise as a photographer?



It just means you haven't posted enough.


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## vonstarrphoto (Jul 31, 2011)

MissCream said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > MissCream said:
> ...



Well either way it is isn't helpful just rude. Lalalalala I could go on forever anyway bye


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## MissCream (Jul 31, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> MissCream said:
> 
> 
> > vonstarrphoto said:
> ...



So maybe next time you should just ask for constructive criticism and no comments.


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## vonstarrphoto (Jul 31, 2011)

MissCream said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > MissCream said:
> ...



OKIE DOKIE I will try that


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## manaheim (Jul 31, 2011)

omg people.  art is not judgemental.  it would be hysterical if it was, but...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

Artists are judgmental.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Jul 31, 2011)

MissCream said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > MissCream said:
> ...



"_Some weekend pix for...C!"

_Either that or C-ATMITMPIAGAITII
That is: "Criticism minus anything that might imply that my picture isn't as good as I think it is"


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## vonstarrphoto (Jul 31, 2011)

Meh I think this thread has made it's point and is done...


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## Virtuosos (Jul 31, 2011)

"This is Cave Johnson...We're done here." ~ Portal 2


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

I think it needs to keep going.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Jul 31, 2011)




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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 31, 2011)

Ballistics said:


> I see your argument, but you cannot discount the fact that there is a method for all types of composition. Any rule is technical, otherwise they wouldn't be called rules. Rules of space, thirds, odds, geometry/symmetry - There is a science to all of this. If not, why not?


Not all of composition is rules. I personally don't like the term "rule" of thirds. Most of composition and elements of design, are observations of how the mind works. I don't like how you are trying to prove that art is science, or that you can take a scientific approach to it.  





> I think we've reached a place where we agree to disagree. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, and I am willing to bet my month's income that you know way more than I do. However, I have the ability to draw a conclusion based on the information given. How are rules not technical? Obviously they aren't laws of physics, but I believe there is a great technical aspect to all art. If you are certain that I am **wrong**, I am all about being educated. I'm not like most of these people on here that have their ideas set in stone. I'm willing to be persuaded, but the value of that fact arrives at the strength of the argument.


 There is far, far more to it though. There is the artists lif experiences that effect his art. There is emotion and feeling and intuition involved in the decision making and creation process. You can't simply take a technical approach to art and expect to come out with anything truly meaningful. When you do, it is just design. It is design in a pure form, devoid of real self expression.





> As for creativity deriving from technicality, I know from my own personal experience that my creativity (or what some call art) for anything that I do comes from being good at it technically. Maybe I am a rare case, but I can only go by personal experience. Repetition and monotonous actions become boring, and I try to find a different way to do the same thing.


I am the same way. I hate mass production. Once I make something, I don't ever want to make it again. In a way this is a good trait, for the reason you say. It will push you to go further, eventually. 





> I misrepresented my point about not being able to teach art, what I meant to say was you can't teach taste and you don't have to be an artist to understand art.


I think artists understand art more than non-artists. I am thinking you want to say "you don't have to be an artist to appreciate art", which relates directly to "taste". I agree, you can't teach taste. You can educate someone all you want about various forms and styles of art, but in the end they will still like most, what fires their synapses.  I really appreciate this discussion with you. As you can tell, I have very strong feelings on the subject.


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## ulrichsd (Aug 1, 2011)

To quote Oscar Wilde.

"All art is quite useless"


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## Kbarredo (Aug 1, 2011)

480sparky said:


> If you're going to ask for C&C, then prepare to either crawl into a corner a cry or grow thicker skin.If a response such as "It's oversaturated" or "Everything is out of focus" can easily be taken as rudeness.  however, it's simply a statement and should be taken as such.


 How about stop being lazy or you're an idiot, is that considered constructive as well. Oh heres another one "your wife is probably banging your friend". You have to admit there are alot if useless straight up rudeness around here. Sadly I do contribute from time to time.


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## sleist (Aug 1, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> You have to admit there are alot if useless straight up rudeness around here. *Sadly I do contribute from time to time.*



Be the change you want to see in the world.

- Mahatma Gandhi


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## Kbarredo (Aug 1, 2011)

sleist said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > You have to admit there are alot if useless straight up rudeness around here. *Sadly I do contribute from time to time.*
> ...


 "if you wanna make the world a better place just look at yourself and make a change"Michael jackson


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

"You're so vain, you probably think this thread is about you." ~Carly Simon


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."  - Bob Dylan


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## Village Idiot (Aug 1, 2011)

indioli said:


> I think it's great that people can come on here and get feedback and advice. I personally have received a lot of good feedback and advice from people on here.
> 
> *However* it seems there are a lot of judgemental people on here who feel they have the right to be rude/nasty to people (on a personal level)
> 
> ...



I haven't read the other 89 posts in this thread. I don't need to.

You have 34 post and have been a member for maybe an entire month and that's if you signed up on July 1st. If you haven't noticed, the "BEGINNER's forum" is a post dump where everyone posts no matter what skill level. And you should've noticed unless you're Captain Totally and Utterly Oblivous or blind. So how about you get off of your "high hors" and go do something productive fore society, away from where it could quite possibly bug me.

And my ranting response was so much better than your's.


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## levinest (Aug 1, 2011)

@e.rose - awesome form!  I must print that one out!

 @indioli - I'd tend to agree with everyone here that criticism can sting and can sometime be taken the wrong way, but that it's part of growing as a photographer to not take it personally.  Yes, there are a few around here (won't name names) I've seen in the short time I've been around that can be condescending or even rude.  With that being said, you should find most people here go out of their way to provide quite accurate and honest critique of photos posted to this site.  There obviously is some local etiquette that needs to be learned when joining any forum, such that you don't offend the established ways of doing things and get some reprimands, but overall you'll find some really good, experienced people taking time out of their day to help those of us (myself included) that are just starting to get serious about their work and need all of the input possible - constructive and/or critical - to help them improve.  My humble advice - Read through the posts every day, learn what others are doing right and wrong by looking at their photos and the responses.  Often that's the best way to find out what really makes a good product.  Keep a thick skin, but if someone is just downright rude and completely unhelpful don't be afraid to reprimand them for their behavior.  Bullies hide behind anonymous persona.  It's all of our job to police the forum to keep it a friendly place people can feel good about coming to.


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## Geaux (Aug 1, 2011)

Who you calling a hor?


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## levinest (Aug 1, 2011)

No no, silly.  Hors, one for each of your personalities.   Five of my seven are hors.


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## DennyCrane (Aug 1, 2011)

I have 7 of 9.


man, shes hot







...waits


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## ghache (Aug 1, 2011)

oh god people lol!


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## sleist (Aug 1, 2011)

DennyCrane said:


> I have 7 of 9.
> 
> 
> man, shes hot
> ...



Assimilate me baby ....


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## Stryker (Aug 1, 2011)

loving this thread.  Keep it coming...


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## AgentDrex (Aug 1, 2011)

Here's my two and a half dollars.  Derrel was pretty rude to me a few times during my early time here.  I got over it.  Derrel is who he is and I enjoy his company here at TPF.  My first posts here were of extremely crappy photos that I was proud of.  I had very thin skin and almost walked away from TPF due to the "rudeness" of others.  I got over it.  I'm still here through it all and am now posting photos of a slighly higher quality.  Some people have ego problems.  Some people have drinking problems.  Some people have mental problems.  Not one of these characteristics is unique to TPF.  Any street, any town, any country, you will find people with the same qualities.  This isn't a photographic lesson, this is a life lesson.  To make it sane in this world, one must realize we have no control over others and what they do, no matter what we try.  One must develop a thick skin and get over it.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

I think this thread, if you read it properly is more about wanting constructive criticism so that people can improve on theirwork instead of some smart ass idiot saying this photo is crap. It is not helpful!!!! We want help hence why we are here not idiots writing lame crappy comments that offer no technical insight into the photo... The OP is not saying she loves her photos and doesn't want anyone criticising them, that is what she does want or she wouldn't be posting?! But anyway I am done here. I will get back to my real life :flower:


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## helloyo53 (Aug 1, 2011)

To be honest, I would much prefer people tell me that my photo is a piece of crap rather than lie and say it's good.  If it's bad, I want to know so I don't do that same thing again.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

helloyo53 said:


> To be honest, I would much prefer people tell me that my photo is a piece of crap rather than lie and say it's good.  If it's bad, I want to know so I don't do that same thing again.



She doesn't need someone telling her her photo is crap, how can you improve on a photo if no help is offered just a retarded half hearted response?!


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## frisii (Aug 1, 2011)

..

David: Oh sorry...well this is thoroughly depressing.
Nigel: It really puts perspective on things, though, doesn't it?
David: Too much, there's too much f*****g perspective now.

_Spinal Tarp_


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

...............


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## indioli (Aug 1, 2011)

They don't get it Vonstarr, they clearly can't READ properly and are just going off on a tangent.
Half of 'em are just arguing with each other.  Lol!

I do not care if someone says my photo is crap!!  I want feedback on how to improve it after they have said it's crap!  Is that SO frickin hard for you people to understand?
The annoying thing is, you will now carry on about how my skin needs to be thicker... blah blah blah.  
People's comments about my images DO NOT offend me!  I don't care if you don't like my picture, because I'm not taking it for you.  I just like to get feedback on how to make it better.
Shall I repeat myself again?????


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

indioli said:


> They don't get it Vonstarr, they clearly can't READ properly and are just going off on a tangent.
> Half of 'em are just arguing with each other.  Lol!
> 
> I do not care if someone says my photo is crap!!  I want feedback on how to improve it after they have said it's crap!  Is that SO frickin hard for you people to understand?
> ...



Well said


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## pgriz (Aug 1, 2011)

Well, if someone told me my photo was crap, I'd ask them what they would do to improve it.  That creates the potential for a dialogue.  Again, it also depends on whose judgement I'm listening to.  If it is someone I admire for their skill at the discipline I'm trying to work on, then I'll be pretty receptive.  If it was someone who really had no clue...  then why even bother responding.  

People who truly want to learn also give plenty of clues as to what they are trying to do and what they tried.  Something along the lines of...  "this was the idea I had, this is how I decided to carry it out, and this is the result.  What else could/should I do to improve on this?"  I don't remember any query posed in this way ever getting bad responses.  On the other hand, a posting that says "I really like this photo - don't you think it's fantastic?" is not really asking for C&C, but for a pat on the back.  Eh, maybe they will get it if it is really "fantastic", but if it isn't, then not so much.


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## Scoody (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> helloyo53 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, I would much prefer people tell me that my photo is a piece of crap rather than lie and say it's good. If it's bad, I want to know so I don't do that same thing again.
> ...



How about by starting out with, "Here is what you can do to improve that crappy photo and tune your nonexistent skills?  Here is a photo my dog took and it is better than yours.  Let me show you why"  Like that?

Oh by the way have you guys seen that photo blog that is updated daily a cat?  Pretty cool.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Scoody said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > helloyo53 said:
> ...



SMART A**


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Well, if someone told me my photo was crap, I'd ask them what they would do to improve it.  That creates the potential for a dialogue.  Again, it also depends on whose judgement I'm listening to.  If it is someone I admire for their skill at the discipline I'm trying to work on, then I'll be pretty receptive.  If it was someone who really had no clue...  then why even bother responding.
> 
> People who truly want to learn also give plenty of clues as to what they are trying to do and what they tried.  Something along the lines of...  "this was the idea I had, this is how I decided to carry it out, and this is the result.  What else could/should I do to improve on this?"  I don't remember any query posed in this way ever getting bad responses.  On the other hand, a posting that says "I really like this photo - don't you think it's fantastic?" is not really asking for C&C, but for a pat on the back.  Eh, maybe they will get it if it is really "fantastic", but if it isn't, then not so much.



I have never really seen someone post saying they think their photo is amazing, you can always improve in photography.. So this comment is invalid..  yawn


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## helloyo53 (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> helloyo53 said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, I would much prefer people tell me that my photo is a piece of crap rather than lie and say it's good.  If it's bad, I want to know so I don't do that same thing again.
> ...



Well obviously I would want some sort of feedback too after saying it's crap.  But the point is that I'd like for people to tell me that my photo is bad and tell me how to improve it rather than them saying it's fine when it's bad.


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## jwbryson1 (Aug 1, 2011)

I hear you Indioli.  There are those on this board who offer true CC and others who are on here seemingly just to be pricks. Probably more of the latter.  This forum is lame.


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## Scoody (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Scoody said:
> 
> 
> > vonstarrphoto said:
> ...



Seriously.  All the photos on that blog are taken by a cat.  His composition is crap (I would tell him so if he ever posted them up here), and he knows nothing about white balance, but for a cat, not too shabby.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Scoody said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Scoody said:
> ...



Umm OK anyway.........


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## indioli (Aug 1, 2011)

dogs taking pictures!! pah


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Well, if someone told me my photo was crap, I'd ask them what they would do to improve it.  That creates the potential for a dialogue.  Again, it also depends on whose judgement I'm listening to.  If it is someone I admire for their skill at the discipline I'm trying to work on, then I'll be pretty receptive.  If it was someone who really had no clue...  then why even bother responding.
> 
> People who truly want to learn also give plenty of clues as to what they are trying to do and what they tried.  Something along the lines of...  "this was the idea I had, this is how I decided to carry it out, and this is the result.  What else could/should I do to improve on this?"  I don't remember any query posed in this way ever getting bad responses.  On the other hand, a posting that says "I really like this photo - don't you think it's fantastic?" is not really asking for C&C, but for a pat on the back.  Eh, maybe they will get it if it is really "fantastic", but if it isn't, then not so much.



I agree that if someone who was amazing and that I admired was offering advice and said it was crap, I would listen if they then offered decent advice but if it just some idiot with a big mouth and lame pictures of his dog then I would be upset that they felt they could judge someone when their own work is mundane.....


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## Scoody (Aug 1, 2011)

indioli said:


> maybe scoody should change his name to scooby... doo... and then spout about dogs taking pictures!! pah



I use the username "Scoody" because my grandson would never say, "Scooby Doo" when he was a toddler.  He always said, "Scoody Boo."


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> indioli said:
> 
> 
> > They don't get it Vonstarr, they clearly can't READ properly and are just going off on a tangent.
> ...



I don't understand why you're agreeing with her after disagreeing with Misscream earlier on pretty much the same subject



vonstarrphoto said:


> MissCream said:
> 
> 
> > vonstarrphoto said:
> ...



Talking in circles?


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Meh lets all get back to reality. This has all got pretty pointless.


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## frisii (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Meh lets all get back to reality. This has all got pretty pointless.



These kinds of thread usually are.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

Welcome to the forum, noobs.

 If you don't care for your interactions here, don't post. 

There ARE other forums.

Complain, complain, complain. Call the wahhhhmbulance.


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## Compaq (Aug 1, 2011)

It's quite obvious that people act differently when being behind the invisible wall of anonymity. I do myself. 

Everything I write here are my own opinions.

Art is no science. Anyone can appreciate it, not everyone can understand it. Not anyone can learn it. I hope I'm one of the people who can. I wrote a term paper in philosophy in which I touched upon what I believe "talent" is - and I believe it is an intrinsic property.
Let me define "talent" as a predisposition to learn something more easily than most others, or learning quicker than others. Talents can be "deep" or "superficial". With "deep" I mean that the person with a deep talent seem to be exceedingly better at something than most, whereas a "superficial" talent is just grasping things faster on a short term basis.

So, back to my point. If someone is a talented artist, then, according to me, he/she is genetically predispositioned to communicating visually (with regard to photography/painting), or easily understands how visual elements effect our emotions.
I have always been very quick to grasp practical things... how to do stuff. Use the camera: not very hard for me. Learning to use photoshop: I am learning quickly. Learning to play volleyball: I learn quickly. Understanding how to use the camera settings to evoke emotions: it takes time for me.

Once something starts to touch upon abstract concepts, I must sit down and think about it. I remember last year when I was taking a Calculus course at the University, the maths turned much more abstract when dealing with precise definitions of limits. I had to sit down and really think about it, trying to figure it out in my mind. Doing things, such as optimizing or calculating defined integrals, comes more natural to me.

I am sure we can reduce certain artistic guidelines into mathematical expressions, but art is not science. Of course, defining what "science" is has been attempted for over 100 years. I can mention names such as Popper, Feyerabend and Kuhn. Precisely defining "science" is a philosophical matter, and should be approached carefully. I won't go into that. If you're interested, read up on the major theories and make up your own mind.

According to me, art isn't science. It is not something everyone can master, but something everyone can appreciate. We humans are spiritual creatures, and seek meaning through other means than reason, whether that is meaning through religion or meaning through art.

Not checked for typos.


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## eUgalde13 (Aug 1, 2011)

Holy crap Batman this thread keeps growing??? From page one the message was as clear as number seven: 





indioli said:


> I do not care if someone says my photo is crap!!  I want feedback on how to improve it after they have said it's crap![...]  People's comments about my images DO NOT offend me![...] I just like to get feedback on how to make it better.Shall I repeat myself again?????


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Meh lets all get back to reality. This has all got pretty pointless.



But....but...but....

*I MADE A POINT!*


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## vtf (Aug 1, 2011)

Wow, I'm speechless. A thread that has gone in circles and will accomplish nothing in th end. Who here has seen this at least once a month please *like* my post.

Thank You for your participation.


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## sleist (Aug 1, 2011)

It's all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

I don't know why it's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

It's just


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## The_Traveler (Aug 2, 2011)

It is interesting to me how many people who are relatively new to the place talk with great insistence on wanting things one way act completely the other way in their own threads. The one that pops out at me is VonStarrPhoto.

While he/she wants people to comment and tell him/her what about his/her work is good or crap, when these same people asked him/her to do some work for himself/herself about lighting stuff, well that ended up badly.

Unfortunately, the people who can give good c/c are generally people who also know a lot technically and there is just some finite amount of effort they'll put out. 
So either go along with how they want to help or else you'll cut yourself off from what help they can give.

Do VonStarrPhoto and others, after they've seemingly done their best to insult those who can give them the best help, think that these same people will come back and spend time with them later on?

You make your own bed, fellows, and you'll be lying in it with other newbies by yourself.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> You make your own bed, fellows, and you'll be lying in it with other newbies by yourself.


 Thats an oxymoron. How can you be lying with others by yourself. So what im gathering is that it is not ok to complain about rude people. Although it is ok to complain about people who complain about rude people.
Thats like a smoker saying its their right to smoke wherever they want. At the same time saying that non smokers are not allowed to insult them for their unhealthy lifestyle.


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## indioli (Aug 2, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > You make your own bed, fellows, and you'll be lying in it with other newbies by yourself.
> ...



Kbarredo, you hit the nail on the head!


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## LaFoto (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, hasn't the time come for this thread to be done with?
Feel free to start a new whining thread at any time. We might even dig out the Whining Forum again, I know it is still there, somewhere... :roll:


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