# RGB vs sRGB issue



## KB2 (Jun 16, 2015)

I have a monitor with a high color gamut (a Dell UltraSharp U2713H ). I do newborn photography, and have been editing in Adobe RGB. I want the photos to print well, so I'm thinking Adobe RGB is better than sRGB. However, I also want to display my photos on my website and Facebook, as that is the best way to get new business. This montior is new to me, and I'm now seeing a huge difference between Adobe RGB and sRGB. It is having a horrible effect on the skin tones, making the baby look bright pink. I'm using Photoshop CS6. First I used "Save for Web" and converted to sRGB. When that looked terrible, I restarted from my original image and tried going to "Convert to Profile" in the Edit menu. In that screen the preview showed no significant color change, but alas, when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before. Please let me know if there is a way to convert without having such a drastic color change, or advise if it would be wise to do all of my editing in sRGB from now on. Will the prints look bad? I really don't want to edit all of my images twice. Hopefully the below images will show you the problem... I've taken a screen grab of my original edit, which seems to be keeping the right color, at least on my monitor. I'm not really sure how the screen grab works, but I believe the resolution isn't as good, so I don't want to use this as a solution. The second photo is what happens when it's converted to sRGB.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 16, 2015)

When you resize and save files for viewing on the web, use the 'save for web' option.
That will convert the exported file to sRGB


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## KB2 (Jun 16, 2015)

When viewing this thread on my iPhone, the two photos look nearly identical... and in the correct color!  Here is another screen shot showing the side-by-side as seen on my monitor. It's driving me nuts wondering how everyone else sees it.  I can't confidently convert files to sRGB because some people may see the red version that I'm seeing...


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## Ysarex (Jun 16, 2015)

KB2 said:


> When viewing this thread on my iPhone, the two photos look nearly identical... and in the correct color!  Here is another screen shot showing the side-by-side as seen on my monitor. It's driving me nuts wondering how everyone else sees it.  I can't confidently convert files to sRGB because some people may see the red version that I'm seeing...View attachment 103593




These two photos look substantially different. They are much more different than the first set you posted.

You should be editing and saving your photos in sRGB.

How are you calibrating the monitor that you're using?

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 16, 2015)

I have experienced the same issue a while back. 4 hours of research I found that it was due to web browser and OS. Once I saved my images with “Embed Color Profile” selected in Photo Shop the problem disappeared.
Here is a link to the article that helped me.
WEB BROWSER COLOR MANAGEMENT Tutorial - Test Page FireFox Safari Chrome Internet Explorer IE 10- FILES have embedded ICC profiles Photoshop ColorManagement

Hope this helps.
By the way this is my first post to the forum.


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## KmH (Jun 17, 2015)

sRGB is just one of the family of color spaces that are part of the RGB color model.

Here is a group of tutorials with subjects related to color management - Tutorials on Color Management Printing

Adobe RGB is also a RGB color space, but Adobe RGB has a broader color gamut than sRGB does.
Editing experts recommend editing in the broadest color space available to you.
With Photoshop that would be the ProPhoto RGB color space. Lightroom uses a version of the ProPhoto RGB color space that has a gamma of 1.0 that matches the gamma of Raw files.
Once you are done editing you assign an appropriate color space to the photo based on how the photo will be used.
The Internet is sRGB. most electronic displays are SRGB but better computer monitors can often display a sizable % or all of the Adobe RGB color space.
Some print labs can print photos that have been assigned to the Adobe RGB color space.

Note: Raw files have no color space. So the color space setting options a DSLR camera offers have no effect on Raw files shot using the camera. 

Per the post above about embedding a color profile - not all browsers and OS will know what to do with an embedded color profile, including mobile device OSs.


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## Braineack (Jun 17, 2015)

the sRGB verison looks much better IMHO.


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> How are you calibrating the monitor that you're using?


I have not changed the factory calibration.  This hadn't even occurred to me, as I'm not noticing the issue with anyone elses images that I see online.


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Braineack said:


> the sRGB verison looks much better IMHO.



Honestly, I agree, BUT the colors appear more washed out after I upload them.  If only someone could see this from my monitor... I am baffled.  Here is one more screenshot, in case it makes a difference.  This one also shows what I usually do in photoshop.


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## Braineack (Jun 17, 2015)

what happens when you change preview "monitor color" to "internet standard"?


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > How are you calibrating the monitor that you're using?
> ...



This could be the root of your problem. Your monitor is uncalibrated and has not been profiled. What Photoshop displays on the screen when you're editing is based on the monitor ICC profile -- right now you have only a generic monitor profile that does not match your uncalibrated monitor.

Calibrate your display: Amazon.com X-Rite CMUNSML ColorMunki Smile Computer Mice Camera Photo

Joe


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

KmH said:


> Editing experts recommend editing in the broadest color space available to you.
> With Photoshop that would be the ProPhoto RGB color space. Lightroom uses a version of the ProPhoto RGB color space that has a gamma of 1.0 that matches the gamma of Raw files.
> Once you are done editing you assign an appropriate color space to the photo based on how the photo will be used.



I completely agree with editing in the broadest color space available, which is why I bought this monitor.  I will take your recommendation on ProPhoto RGB.  However, I'm still distressed regarding the effect of assigning the sRGB color space to my photos.

I'm hoping you all can see the effect in my latest upload.  On my screen, she looks like she has a bad sunburn.  I understand you will all see these pictures differently depending on your monitors, I'm hoping someone with the same monitor or a similar wide gamut monitor will be able to offer some advice. 



BBush said:


> Once I saved my images with “Embed Color Profile” selected in Photo Shop the problem disappeared.


I would love to try this, as I'm willing to try anything ;-)  I don't see an option to Embed Color Profile when I go to save.  I have tried finding it on google, but most of the information on this is a few years old, and is supposedly "fixed" by CS6 (is that option even there anymore?).  Also, it seems to be used to correct the issue of photos appearing washed out, whereas mine are becoming over saturated.  Can anyone give more info on this?  I'm afraid some of the technical terms in the article that BBush linked to are over my head, but I will continue to research it.  I appreciate all of the responses I've gotten, thank you all!


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> When that looked terrible, I restarted from my original image and tried going to "Convert to Profile" in the Edit menu. In that screen the preview showed no significant color change, but alas, when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before.



Your answer is here. Photoshop converts well between color spaces. When you converted from aRGB to sRGB the photo didn't change it's appearance in Photoshop. And that's because the color conversion was well done and in fact the photo's colors were not changed.

You don't see a difference when inside Photoshop. You see a difference between the Photoshop display and the display in other software or other devices. If you're seeing the difference on your computer between Photoshop showing you the photo and the same photo displayed by other software then the problem is in how those two programs (PS and other software) are handling the various ICC profiles involved.

Joe


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Braineack said:


> what happens when you change preview "monitor color" to "internet standard"?


In that case the color does not change in photoshop, but it still appears very red once it is on the web.


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> KB2 said:
> 
> 
> > When that looked terrible, I restarted from my original image and tried going to "Convert to Profile" in the Edit menu. In that screen the preview showed no significant color change, but alas, when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before.
> ...



What is the fix?  Do you still think I need to calibrate my display?


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > what happens when you change preview "monitor color" to "internet standard"?
> ...



So when the photo is on the web it's being displayed via web browsing software and when it's in Photoshop it's being displayed by Photoshop. It's the same photo in both applications. So what are those applications doing different that changes the appearance of the photos?

Joe


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > KB2 said:
> ...



I don't think you need to calibrate your display; I know you need to calibrate your display. That's the first *non-optional* step in establishing color management control. When you look at the photo on the internet on your computer what software are you using -- what web browser?

Joe


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> KB2 said:
> 
> 
> > Ysarex said:
> ...



Also where do you upload the photo -- hosting site?

Joe


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## KmH (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> I don't see an option to Embed Color Profile when I go to save.


In Photoshop click on *Edit > Assign Profile,* and in the pop up dialog box select sRGB


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

I am using Internet Explorer 11.  This has been my first photo session with the new monitor, and so far I only uploaded a "sneak peek" image to Facebook to share with the family... and immediately deleted it when I saw the color.  Then, to experiment, I've uploaded it to Facebook in private mode, so only I can see it. I've checked it across my devices (laptop, iphone, ipad).  It looks slightly different across devices, but only looks really red on my wide gamut monitor.  Also, if I save the image as PNG, my computer uses Adobe Fireworks to open it, where it also looks red.  The thumbnail images in my Windows file folders also look red.

I have spent a lot of time looking into this and reading various help pages online.  I've learned that only programs like photoshop and the Windows Photo Viewer can manage the colors, whereas everything else is sRGB.  This website explains it very well: WIDE GAMUT ADOBE RGB LCD Monitors Screens Troubleshooting Over Saturated sRGB Color Reviews on the Web Tutorial
I'm going to try out Firefox as the article suggests, as well as calibrate my monitor.  I'll post back to let everyone know if it helps. 

I also dug a little deeper on embedding the color profile, and found that I have been doing it all along.  In the Save as dialog box, it does not say "Embed" but does have a checkmark next to "Color Profile" and shows the profile that I am using.

I do think I've found an explanation, even though I'm still looking for a fix.  On this website: Manage colors with Photoshop  I learned that going from a wider color space to a smaller one (aRGB to sRGB) the image appears less saturated and going from a smaller one to a wider one (aRGB to ProPhoto) it becomes over saturated.  My theory is this: I'm converting the images perfectly in Photoshop, down to sRGB. But then my monitor sees it and is automatically "upgrading" to aRGB causing me to see the over saturation.  Does that make sense? Can anyone confirm whether or not I'm right?  The first article that I referenced in this post says that you can recreate this effect on any monitor by looking at a photo with an sRGB profile in Photoshop and converting it up to aRGB.  Or likewise, take an aRGB and convert it to ProPhoto.  I tried it and it's true, I converted my photo from aRGB to ProPhoto and it looks exactly as I'm seeing it online, so I encourage you to try it if you are interested.


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

Wide gamut monitors do not play well with web browsers. Most browsers do not obey your monitors color profile and when you upgrade to an Adobe capable monitor becomes much more apparent.
I have uploaded 2 photos to demonstrate this. This example is for those viewing on wide gamut monitors. Both photos are exactly the same except one has an embedded rgb profile. If you see a color difference between the two then congratulations, your web browser is reading the srgb profile. This is most apparent only on wide gamut monitors.

If there is no color difference between the two then you may have a problem.
Internet Explorer does not read profiles and I can bet if your are viewing on a wide gamut monitor you are seeing both photos at the same color and the color is wrong.

If you are using Firefox browser as recommended by the site I posted above you will see a difference.
This issue does not effect cheaper monitors, but besides following a correct color workflow it is good practice to save web images with embedded rgb profiles.

Firefox browser is recommended with custom settings for wide gamut monitors.


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> Internet Explorer does not read profiles and I can bet if your are viewing on a wide gamut monitor you are seeing both photos at the same color and the color is wrong.



Internet Explorer *does* read embedded ICC profiles in photos. Unless you're talking about IE version 6 which was a long long time ago.

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

Joe, you may be right. But I have yet to have success with IE 11 unless there is a setting that I have missed. I have tested a clean install of Windows 7 and IE 11 on ASUS Pro Art PA249 and IE did not use color profiles resulting bad color.

Found the link I was looking for. Apparently IE does read the embedded profile, but sadly ignores the monitors profile. Reports do say it is working on windows 8

Quote taken from the Microsoft community..

"Not possible unfortunately. IE9 misleadingly advertised color management, when it would only interpret the color profile of the image but ignore the color profile of the monitor. This issue has not been fixed in IE10 or IE11 to my knowledge. Of the three main browsers, only firefox displays colors correctly on a calibrated monitor."

Are there any color management options in Internet Explorer 10 or - Microsoft Community


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> I am using Internet Explorer 11.  This has been my first photo session with the new monitor, and so far I only uploaded a "sneak peek" image to Facebook to share with the family... and immediately deleted it when I saw the color.  Then, to experiment, I've uploaded it to Facebook in private mode, so only I can see it. I've checked it across my devices (laptop, iphone, ipad).  It looks slightly different across devices, but only looks really red on my wide gamut monitor.  Also, if I save the image as PNG, my computer uses Adobe Fireworks to open it, where it also looks red.  The thumbnail images in my Windows file folders also look red.
> 
> I have spent a lot of time looking into this and reading various help pages online.  I've learned that only programs like photoshop and the Windows Photo Viewer can manage the colors, whereas everything else is sRGB.  This website explains it very well: WIDE GAMUT ADOBE RGB LCD Monitors Screens Troubleshooting Over Saturated sRGB Color Reviews on the Web Tutorial
> I'm going to try out Firefox as the article suggests, as well as calibrate my monitor.  I'll post back to let everyone know if it helps.
> ...



It does not make sense. Monitors do not have color spaces. There's no such thing as an aRGB or sRGB monitor.
The point of *converting* between color spaces is to keep the photo looking the same. For example here's a screen shot of a photo opened in PS. The original had an sRGB color space tag. I duped it twice and converted to aRGB for one dupe and ProPhoto for the second. If well converted and no coercion is required then all three photos look the same.



 

What you're describing sound like profile re-assignment and not conversion. Big difference there. This is what happens if you do a profile assignment between color spaces.



 

There is little reason you would want to do that. Conversion is normally what you should be doing.

Joe



KB2 said:


> The first article that I referenced in this post says that you can recreate this effect on any monitor by looking at a photo with an sRGB profile in Photoshop and converting it up to aRGB.  Or likewise, take an aRGB and convert it to ProPhoto.  I tried it and it's true, I converted my photo from aRGB to ProPhoto and it looks exactly as I'm seeing it online, so I encourage you to try it if you are interested.


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> Joe, you may be right. But I have yet to have success with IE 11 unless there is a setting that I have missed. I have tested a clean install of Windows 7 and IE 11 on ASUS Pro Art PA249 and IE did not use color profiles resulting bad color.
> 
> Found the link I was looking for. Apparently IE does read the embedded profile, but sadly ignores the monitors profile. Reports do say it is working on windows 8
> 
> ...




Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.



Haha... I believe you found the issue. No ICC for the monitor will make a total mess out of everything.
But even with a properly calibrated monitor and a ICC monitor profile in place, any image outside of Photoshop or any other color managed application relies on color management of the program it is viewed in, and from numerous hours of testing IE on windows 7 does not display color correctly on a calibrated monitor.


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.
> ...



No argument there about IE using a monitor profile. Don't really know and couldn't care less.

Back to the OP's original problem. Photoshop expects it is being used on a calibrated display and behaves accordingly. Years ago (like a decade) there was an option to use Photoshop with color management turned off. Adobe correctly put a stop to that. If you're going to edit photos and have any hope or expectation that you're seeing X color as X color you must apply correct color management practices. Step #1 -- calibrate and profile the display.

Unfortunately most of the world otherwise remains uncalibrated and non color-managed. If you're going to place photos on the internet make sure they have an embedded ICC profile and make sure that profile is sRGB. That's not a guarantee but it's the best you can do. If you're going to view an internet image on a non color-managed display or using non color-managed or half-a**ed color-manged software you're going to see your photo garbled -- make sure it's tagged sRGB as your safest bet. If you are using non color-managed or half-a**ed color-managed software consider getting better software.

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before



That is why I brought up the issue with IE due to the fact that the OP is using IE 11


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> KB2 said:
> 
> 
> > when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before
> ...



It's been a long time since I investigated anything having to do with IE. I knew they had added in photo profile support, but if IE doesn't read the system monitor profile, and I believe you're right it does not -- just searched although I haven't found anything recent enough yet, then that would make it inappropriate for photographic display. Even bleep bleep GIMP reads the monitor profile for Pete's sake! In that case IE would certainly be part of the OP's problem. Firefox is an easy fix for that. The other part of the OP's problem, especially given the wide gamut monitor, is that Photoshop requires a calibration profile.

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

You are correct. Years ago when I upgraded several monitors to wide gamut I spent many days trying to fix this problem and after all that was said and done it turned out to be Microsoft's problem. Spend $700+ on a monitor and web images looking like rainbows does not cut it. I have many years in the color print industry and this problem was the worst to figure out. I was hoping to save others many lost hours of research trying to fix a problem that lies with Microsoft


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use.


The reason I haven't calibrated my monitor is because the advertising for this monitor says it is carefully calibrated from the factory and I didn't want to mess with that.  But I am now planning to do it anyway.  Here is another screen grab though, which I believe shows that Photoshop does have my monitor profile. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> You are correct. Years ago when I upgraded several monitors to wide gamut I spent many days trying to fix this problem and after all that was said and done it turned out to be Microsoft's problem. Spend $700+ on a monitor and web images looking like rainbows does not cut it. I have many years in the color print industry and this problem was the worst to figure out. I was hoping to save others many lost hours of research trying to fix a problem that lies with Microsoft



BBush, I think you have the answer to my problems.  I am going to install Firefox right now.  I appreciate your visuals that you posted.  But let me get this straight...  I'm going to continue to Save for Web, convert to sRGB, and embed the color profile, and rest easy that most of the world is seeing my images as I want them to.  And in the case of people who have wide gamut screens, we just hope they know enough to use Firefox?


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

There may be a slight color shift for others using IE on cheaper monitors and IOS devices but not as extreme as IE on a wide gamut monitor. Most people do not use high-end monitors such as these so there is little to worry about. Give it a try.... and for the post above do not set your workspace to your monitor profile it is wrong. and yes save to web and select "convert to srgb" and "embed profile"... let us know how it goes.

PS after you install Firefox come back and view the two images I posted. If you see a color change between the two than the browser is reading them correctly

If FF does not perform as expected, folow the link below and scroll down to "HOW TO SETUP & ENABLE VALUE 1 FULL COLOR MANAGEMENT IN FIREFOX:"

BEST FIREFOX TEST PAGE How To Enable FULL COLOR MANAGEMENT of ICC Profiles in FF31 Fire Fox thru FF 3.6


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

KB2 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use.
> ...



It was advertising. Advertising is a synonym for bald-faced lie. Your monitor is calibrated when you calibrate it. Part of the calibration process is the creation of an ICC profile for the monitor. What you (and PS) have now is a generic profile that was installed when the monitor was installed. They're not the same thing. If you really do a proper job calibrating the display one of the steps in the process is to measure the light intensity at your workplace. I'm betting Dell didn't send a team along with the display to take that measurement for you. ;-)

I'm pretty sure BBush is correct in that IE will not use the monitor profile (generic or not) and if you do have a wide gamut monitor that will likely be a big discrepancy. When you do get the display profiled you should be able to work in Photoshop and save your photos tagged sRGB. At that point if you upload them to the internet they should look OK and at least reasonably similar to what you see in PS when they're displayed on phones etc.

Joe



KB2 said:


> But I am now planning to do it anyway.  Here is another screen grab though, which I believe shows that Photoshop does have my monitor profile. Correct me if I'm wrong.View attachment 103630


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## Ysarex (Jun 17, 2015)

BBush said:


> There may be a slight color shift for others using IE on cheaper monitors and IOS devices but not as extreme as IE on a wide gamut monitor. Most people do not use high-end monitors such as these so there is little to worry about. Give it a try.... and for the post above do not set your workspace to your monitor profile it is wrong. and yes save to web and select "convert to srgb" and "embed profile"... let us know how it goes.
> 
> PS after you install Firefox come back and view the two images I posted. If you see a color change between the two than the browser is reading them correctly
> 
> ...



Yeah -- good point that working space should not be the monitor profile and neither should it be Adobe RGB. If you're processing and editing raw photos there's an argument for that working space to be ProPhoto but then you have to remember to go through the conversion process to sRGB for output. The easy thing to do there is set the working space to sRGB -- that's where the photos end up in the end.

Joe


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

If your on windows 7.... check your color setting in control panel. Make sure under the "Devices" tab your monitor is selected...


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> What you're describing sound like profile re-assignment and not conversion.


You are correct.  I just learned these terms today, and I did not mean to say conversion.  I am converting my images to sRGB before putting them on the web, but for this example I meant to say re-assignment.



Ysarex said:


> It does not make sense. Monitors do not have color spaces. There's no such thing as an aRGB or sRGB monitor.


It may not be correct to say aRGB or sRGB monitor, but there are monitors that can only view the amount of colors displayed in sRGB, and wide gamut monitors that can display many more.  I was theorizing that because my monitor can display more colors it is assigning the wider color profile, thus making the same result as assigning the wider profile in photoshop.  I'm not trying to argue that I'm right, just trying to say I had the terms wrong before, and hopefully that clears up my thought process.  The fact that IE is ignoring my monitor's color profile makes complete sense to me, so we can leave it at that.


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## KB2 (Jun 17, 2015)

Earlier today I changed my working space to ProPhoto, and I will remember to convert to sRGB for the web.  Using Firefox now and it is great.  I can see the difference in the horse photos, and my photos look as they should.  I also just checked my control panel and everything is set exactly as BBush's, showing my own monitor of course.  I will be calibrating my monitor, too.  I am so relieved now, and can't thank you guys enough.  Is there a place on this forum where I'm supposed to mark my question as answered?


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## BBush (Jun 17, 2015)

Glad we could help.... Pass the info to others just starting to use wide gamut monitors until Microsoft can get their act together.
Type @ yall later.


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## KmH (Jun 18, 2015)

Your display will need to be re-calibrated on a regular basis, or if the ambient light falling on it has changed and you don't have calibration hardware that continually monitors the ambient light falling on your display.
Regular calibration is to adjust for your display aging and editing experts re-calibrate about once a month.

Ysarex mentioned a display ICC *profile*. Not all display calibration devices will profile your display, so be sure you get calibration hardware that will.
I highly recommend, and many print labs also recommend, X-Rite color management tools.
This colorimeter would be about the least expensive one I would recommend for a serious amateur photographer:
X-Rite CMUNDIS ColorMunki Display
This spectrophotometer will not only calibrate and profile your display, it can also calibrate printers, scanners, and projectors.
This is the one I recommend for working photographers.
X-Rite CMUNPH ColorMunki Photo


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