# are females better in photography?



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

not to insult us guys. But I just did a quick search and it seems like 95 percent of photographers up here in my area are female. Mostly wedding, that sort of thing but even in other fields.

not opening a can of worms am I?

:mrgreen:


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## ronlane (Apr 9, 2014)

Popcorn, popcorn, get your cold beer....:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

Waiting for the crowd on this one.


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## Braineack (Apr 9, 2014)

Not until obama makes it so by decry of the divine right.


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## Gavjenks (Apr 9, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Not until obama makes it so by decry of the divine right.


I should *hope *that Obama decries divine right!


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## SpikeyJohnson (Apr 9, 2014)

I think the reason for that can also be the availability of the male photographers.  In my area ("Happy Valley" Utah Valley, Utah) there are a lot of women who don't have jobs so they can take care of the kids.  Many of them do photography on the side to pay for little things like day trips with the kids and such.  While most the men here go to work from 8-4 or 9-5.  Most mother's also buy nice camera's with large aspirations and just begin taking photo's of the children.  Eventually they move up by educating themselves via the internet and become excellent photographers, or in some cases, horrible. Hence the "a mom with a camera" term.  

Something I have also considered is societies views on men doing artistic jobs.  I don't feel this way but I think many people look down upon men doing artistic or creative ideas that don't involve heavy lifting, welding, automotive, computers or business.  Most people don't see photography as a business, so when the think photographer they think lazy when really it is a lot of work to pay the bills.


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## SpikeyJohnson (Apr 9, 2014)

Also, I don't like weddings at all, I have shot a few but I think women may be better at it because the men are just there to get hitched .  I think the women have a few more ideas when it comes to weddings and romantic photos.


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## Designer (Apr 9, 2014)

Your title asks if they are better?

Worms a-plenty.

Just because there are more of them doesn't equate to their being better.

So what do you think; in looking at their portfolios, are they good?  

(just adding fuel to the fire)


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## webestang64 (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> not to insult us guys. But I just did a quick search and it seems like 95 percent of photographers up here in my area are female. Mostly wedding, that sort of thing but even in other fields.
> 
> not opening a can of worms am I?
> 
> :mrgreen:



House wives with cameras.............they are all over here in St. Louis, shooting weddings and kid portraits. Not sure if "better" is the word.....more like "more" is the word. How do I know this...? I work at a lab and see it all.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

Their boobs help act as a counterweight for rock steady shots.


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## PixelRabbit (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> Their boobs help act as a counterweight for rock steady shots.



I can't express enough how important that is at speeds over 100km/hr.


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## sm4him (Apr 9, 2014)

SpikeyJohnson said:


> I think the reason for that can also be the availability of the male photographers.  In my area ("Happy Valley" Utah Valley, Utah) there are a lot of women who don't have jobs so they can take care of the kids.  Many of them do photography on the side to pay for little things like day trips with the kids and such.  While most the men here go to work from 8-4 or 9-5.  Most mother's also buy nice camera's with large aspirations and just begin taking photo's of the children.  Eventually they move up by educating themselves via the internet and become excellent photographers, or in some cases, horrible. Hence the "a mom with a camera" term.
> 
> Something I have also considered is societies views on men doing artistic jobs.  I don't feel this way but I think many people look down upon men doing artistic or creative ideas that don't involve heavy lifting, welding, automotive, computers or business.  Most people don't see photography as a business, so when the think photographer they think lazy when really it is a lot of work to pay the bills.



^Yep. THIS. I think it's just that, despite many, many changes in our society, it IS still more common for women to not have a regular, full-time day job outside the home, and therefore they TEND to be the ones grabbing a DSLR and throwing out their shingles. So it makes sense that there are more female "pros" out there than men.



Designer said:


> Your title asks if they are better?
> 
> Worms a-plenty.
> 
> ...



^AND, also THIS.

No, they are NOT "better." I *think* that what you are suggesting is that perhaps there are more women IN the photography business BECAUSE they tend to be better at it, but I think that would be a totally false premise.  Like I said, I think there are more simply because they tend to have the time to start photography businesses more than men.

In fact, my completely unscientific GUESS is that if you totaled the number of MALE "pros" (I know, a whole can of worms right there!) and then calculated how many of them were actually really GOOD, it would be a greater percentage than if you did the same thing for the female population, BECAUSE I think females TEND to be the ones who start "businesses" within a month or two of picking up a DSLR, without really understanding how to take professional photos. 

Those are ALL hasty generalizations and only my opinion anyway. Plus, then there's the factor of what's GOOD photography? How do I determine whether *I* am better than *you*?


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> not to insult us guys. But I just did a quick search and it seems like 95 percent of photographers up here in my area are female. Mostly wedding, that sort of thing but even in other fields.
> 
> not opening a can of worms am I?
> 
> :mrgreen:


 I'm going to go with _no_ on this one.    That said, women may be more likely to lean towards a particular style of photography or a particular genre.     It bears reminding that when it comes to wedding and portraiture anyone with an SLR (and some who aren't even that well equipped) can start a Facebook page and hang out their digital shingle.   Given that you can get a free portfolio website, a free business website, a free blog, etc, it's no wonder people who have no real marketable job skill feel compelled to put their cameras to use.  This is the same crowd that used to get sucked into the MLM schemes from companies like Amway and Mary Kay back in the 80's and 90's.    The difference here is that I see it more in younger people (late teens early-mid 20's) where Amway and Mary Kay used to suck up the middle aged housewife crowd.    Hell, my own sister, who just got a T3 and can barely work the controls, is already looking to turn it into a revenue stream.


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## Designer (Apr 9, 2014)

We're going to need a bigger bucket.  

For the worms.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

PixelRabbit said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Their boobs help act as a counterweight for rock steady shots.
> ...



How often do your bosoms break the speed limit?


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

sm4him said:


> if you totaled the number of MALE "pros" (I know, a whole can of worms right there!) and then calculated how many of them were actually really GOOD, it would be a greater percentage than if you did the same thing for the female population, BECAUSE I think females TEND to be the ones who start "businesses" within a month or two of picking up a DSLR, without really understanding how to take professional photos.



So what you are saying is that men are better at running business and photography and that women make irrational decisions based on emotion?

Wow Sharon, I am shocked.


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## Overread (Apr 9, 2014)

+1 to sm4him's post and quotations. 

Photography is a hobby that, with digital, gives instant results and many people who find themselves out of employment are often looking for some form of income. Photography can often be that source of income. Then you look at who hasn't got jobs and many women do end up in that position - might be they've just found it hard getting into the job market or they might have children and thus are after a job that pays, but is very flexible with time. Being their own boss and in a field that isn't strongly gender defined as some others are (historically speaking at least) and it presents an ideal ground to have an increase in women "professionals" starting out. 


As for being "better". First define better. What is better? Better at starting small time jobs - better at charging friends - better at turning a profit - better at technical - better at artistic - all of it? 

My feeling is that they are not better and that photography is a skill that is easily as applicable to both men and women. Heck even if you look at the "heavy" side in wildlife I know several really good female wildlife photographers with no fear of 300mm f2.8 - 500mm f4 - 400mm f2.8 etc... lenses.


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## AlanO (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> PixelRabbit said:
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Little known law enforcement fact: Bosoms account for about 1/2 of all traffic busts.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

AlanO said:


> Little known law enforcement fact: Bosoms account for about 1/2 of all traffic busts.



Shocking really. I think we should try to get a handle on these large traffic busts.


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## AlanO (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> AlanO said:
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> 
> > Little known law enforcement fact: Bosoms account for about 1/2 of all traffic busts.
> ...



Agree, but like most efforts it boils down to a lack of community support.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

AlanO said:


> runnah said:
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Well if the busts are large enough, no amount of support is going to help. Really the best way to help is to just set those involved in said busts, free.


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## Derrel (Apr 9, 2014)

Females look MUCH cuter in swimwear than dudes!


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Females look MUCH cuter in swimwear than dudes!




You haven't seen Lew in a speedo.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 9, 2014)

For whatever reasons, that seems to be exactly what is happening - many women who may be looking to work from home or supplement their family income and think they can buy a DSLR and become instant pro photographers. Sad thing is they can - not necessarily good ones, if it wasn't for photoshop they'd never make it, but if they underprice themselves enough they can get people to pay for their pictures.  Seems to be the easy availability of listing yourself on FB and CL as anything you want to claim to be. 

I've always found there were more men than women among actual photographers in the real world, although there have been more women getting into what used to be work done traditionally more by men. The virtual world of the internet is another thing.


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## Derrel (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> Derrel said:
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> 
> > Females look MUCH cuter in swimwear than dudes!
> ...



And THAT is why my retinas remain undamaged!!!


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> I've always found there were more men than women among actual photographers in the real world, although there have been more women getting into what used to be work done traditionally more by men. The virtual world of the internet is another thing.



Well traditionally photography was done by men for utilitarian purposes, war, sports, cars, women, journalism etc...

Now with the advent of Women into the field, there has been an increase in the number of things photo'd. I would bet that females came up with some of the newer trends. Which is a good things because the more events people want photographed the more work everyone has.


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> > I've always found there were more men than women among actual photographers in the real world, although there have been more women getting into what used to be work done traditionally more by men. The virtual world of the internet is another thing.
> ...


so you are saying women are more creative than men? I could go along with that in most cases.


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## ronlane (Apr 9, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Females look MUCH cuter in swimwear than dudes!



Not all the time. There are PLENTY of females that I don't want to see in a swimsuit.


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> Their boobs help act as a counterweight for rock steady shots.


yeah but see how quick the thread deteriorated and generalized to mwac and boobs. Kind of seems a slam on the many excellent women photographers doesn't it?

I will concur that the availability of women to do photography and career choices may partly explain the more frequency of them. I haven't noticed most unemployed men I have ran across deciding on the spur of the moment to take up a creative art though.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> yeah but see how quick the thread deteriorated and generalized to mwac and boobs. Kind of seems a slam on the many excellent women photographers doesn't it?



I would argue that in an casual conversational environment in which men are discussing women the subject will turn to boobs 100% of the time.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> so you are saying women are more creative than men? I could go along with that in most cases.



No, but I think they are socially allowed to act on those creative urges more than men. If a guy wants to paint rather than play football he will be mocked by his peers, whereas if it was a woman she would be encouraged.

For example, what do most men think of the sexuality of male dancers. I bet it's not about how much tail he gets...


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## Gavjenks (Apr 9, 2014)

> If a guy wants to paint rather than play football he will be mocked by his peers


That's a problem in one's choice of peers, not society. Don't hang out with a bunch of sports crazy bros if you prefer painting, duh.


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > yeah but see how quick the thread deteriorated and generalized to mwac and boobs. Kind of seems a slam on the many excellent women photographers doesn't it?
> ...



"Less than 5 percent of the artists in the modern-art sections are women, but 85 percent of the nudes are female." 

Why are there so few prominent women in the art world? - The Week


interesting read. As you move up the roster in art women become less and less prominent. Yet there appears to be more of them as photographers and on the gallery level (and some curators).
would you consider there a bias excluding women in photography despite their large numbers as photographers?


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > If a guy wants to paint rather than play football he will be mocked by his peers
> 
> 
> That's a problem in one's choice of peers, not society. Don't hang out with a bunch of sports crazy bros if you prefer painting, duh.



I take it you've never been to Texas? Football really is the most important thing behind God and before America. I saw HS stadiums that were on par with some college fields.

Anyways...Young males are encouraged to play team sports, join the scouts, roughhouse. Doing individual sports, playing music, being artistic are considered outside of the norm.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> would you consider there a bias excluding women in photography despite their large numbers as photographers?



Of course there is. Women are still on the backfoot when it comes to equal recognition.


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## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

Women are "allowed" to be more creative, but men are the ones who have traditionally gotten recognized and paid for creativity. Just like women are expected to do the cooking because we're supposedly so much better at it, and yet how many top chefs are men?

As for photography...yes, men supposedly do the hard-hitting documentary and journalistic and sports photography because they are brave and adventurous and blah-dee-f**king-blah, while women open businesses to take pictures of children and weddings. Because, y'know, I have a uterus, so therefore I love children and weddings. And since it's too hard to break into being a photojournalist (before because women weren't hired in high numbers and now because there are hardly any photojournalists of either gender anymore), they turn to what still likely pays a photographer's bills more reliably than other genres.

For the record, I DESPISE weddings. I don't despise children but they do make me fidgety I'm also not going to be around them any more than I have to be.


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## Gavjenks (Apr 9, 2014)

> I take it you've never been to Texas? Football really is the most important thing behind God and before America. I saw HS stadiums that were on par with some college fields.
> 
> Anyways...Young males are encouraged to play team sports, join the scouts, roughhouse. Doing individual sports, playing music, being artistic are considered outside of the norm.



1) I doubt football is on average significantly more important in Texas than in a major Big10 town where almost 40% of the population is university affiliated, and most of the surrounding countryside are stereotypical midwestern alumni.
2) Who cares what the norm is? If you're in a town with even just 1,000 people, if you are amongst a 1% minority, you can still easily have 10 friends with the same interests. If you're in a metro area, make that number more like 100,000 friends...

Since I don't give a crap about football, my partner and all of my friends would in fact react exactly the *opposite* way: mocking me for being interested in football, instead of painting. Even though I live in Iowa City. Because I chose my friends from the pool of people that are similar to me. This is easy to do, and thus mocking from friends should not be a significant factor for men or women photographers who have any common sense.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > I take it you've never been to Texas? Football really is the most important thing behind God and before America. I saw HS stadiums that were on par with some college fields.
> >
> > Anyways...Young males are encouraged to play team sports, join the scouts, roughhouse. Doing individual sports, playing music, being artistic are considered outside of the norm.
> 
> ...



Again I have spent months in Texas. Texas has 12 division 1 college teams which is almost double the next closest state.

Did you mistake peers for meaning friends? Because that isn't what it means and I used it correctly. I think that is what you are getting hung up on.


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

limr said:


> Women are "allowed" to be more creative, but men are the ones who have traditionally gotten recognized and paid for creativity. Just like women are expected to do the cooking because we're supposedly so much better at it, and yet how many top chefs are men?
> 
> As for photography...yes, men supposedly do the hard-hitting documentary and journalistic and sports photography because they are brave and adventurous and blah-dee-f**king-blah, while women open businesses to take pictures of children and weddings. Because, y'know, I have a uterus, so therefore I love children and weddings. And since it's too hard to break into being a photojournalist (before because women weren't hired in high numbers and now because there are hardly any photojournalists of either gender anymore), they turn to what still likely pays a photographer's bills more reliably than other genres.



See a real live woman agrees with me.


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Women are "allowed" to be more creative, but men are the ones who have traditionally gotten recognized and paid for creativity. Just like women are expected to do the cooking because we're supposedly so much better at it, and yet how many top chefs are men?
> ...


yeah but that doesn't matter because they don't get credit and are all about boobs mwac and being for taking nudes remember?


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> yeah but that doesn't matter because they don't get credit and are all about boobs mwac and being for taking nudes remember?



Did you miss the part where I was explaining the reasoning, obviously disagreeing with the treatment?


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> runnah said:
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> > bribrius said:
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   A couple of things to thing about.   First, to be successful as a photographer or artist requires just as much commitment as would be needed to be successful in any other profession.  This means long often random hours coupled with years of toil before the payoff starts to show.  Want to start a family?  Too bad.  Kids are a full time job unto themselves.  Even a relationship without kids requires that your other half be willing to recognize the level of commitment required.   Add to that the fact that retail photography and fine art photography aren't exactly huge moneymakers and you can see where this is going.   

     To go a bit deeper.  Being a photographer is about being an entrepreneur.   Being a small business owner is a risky endeavor in the best of times.   Unlike a salaried or hourly worker, there is no guarantee of payment.  So now you need to be committed, and willing to work under the level of uncertainty, while finding a partner who is willing to support you through that endeavor.   I've seen a lot of relationships strained a broken over just these issues.   For a woman to become a successful small business owner she has to not only deal with these issues, but be willing to either forgo family (something I've seen done), put off family, wait till the kids are grown, or find a man who is willing to either work with her or put his own career on hold to help support her goals.    A man doesn't have to miss work when his wife has a baby.  A man doesn't have to take time off work to breastfeed.   A man can stay focused on his business while his wife focuses on the children.  Sure, there are career women who manage to keep working while having kids, but for one, it tends to require a different kind of commitment from her husband than usual, or it requires a decent income to cover all the daycare.    Beyond that, add the number of women who, after having kids, decide they'd rather be with their kids than working and you can see how these things start to skew.


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## ronlane (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> > > If a guy wants to paint rather than play football he will be mocked by his peers
> ...



Up until the last 10 years, there were high schools in Texas that had better facilities than Most Division II schools did. (Still some around). I believe that South Lake is building a stadium that is going to be as good as North Texas' new facilities. (And the old one as South Lake didn't look too bad to me.)


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

BTW:  as far as fine art photography and getting in a gallery, a lot of curators take a dim view of "part time" artists.  They expect artists to be committed 100% of the time to their art, rather than working a full time job and doing your "art" in your free time.  This includes raising kids.


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## Designer (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> Now with the advent of Women into the field, there has been an increase in the number of things photo'd. I would bet that females came up with some of the newer trends.



Who but a woman would have thought of taking engagement photos?  Or "maternity" photos?  Baby photos have been around quite a while, but not the informal sleeping baby posed every which way in everything imaginable.  

And, let's be honest; a woman is less intimidating to children and high-schoolers than men are.  For that reason, there will always be plenty of work for women photographers.


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

ronlane said:


> runnah said:
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Just makes me glad I don't live in Tx.  I'd probably be lynched for not liking football.


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## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

AlanO said:


> runnah said:
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> > PixelRabbit said:
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At the predictable boob reference: :roll:

At the pun: 



runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Women are "allowed" to be more creative, but men are the ones who have traditionally gotten recognized and paid for creativity. Just like women are expected to do the cooking because we're supposedly so much better at it, and yet how many top chefs are men?
> ...



I have to agree about the Texas thing too. And I went to college at the University of Florida where football players were idolized. Literally. The entire stadium starting bowing whenever Emmitt Smith touched the ball (yes, I'm dating myself.) All the major Div 1 schools go crazy about football, but it gets taken to a whole different level in Texas.


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## ronlane (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> ronlane said:
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> > runnah said:
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Well you know down in Texas there are only three things to do. Eat, fight and football


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> bribrius said:
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> > runnah said:
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This makes some reasonable sense. My own wife gave up career for opting to stay home with children seems many women still aren't career oriented.

edit: you would think there would be LESS women photographers and women based photography businesses then?? As they are all entrepreneur's?


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

ronlane said:


> Up until the last 10 years, there were high schools in Texas that had better facilities than Most Division II schools did. (Still some around). I believe that South Lake is building a stadium that is going to be as good as North Texas' new facilities. (And the old one as South Lake didn't look too bad to me.)



Exactly, the first time I went to Texas I thought I was driving by some big college campus, turn out it was the local HS.

Anyways some stats for gav.

Texas has a population of 26 million and 12 Div 1 football teams. California has 38 millions people and only 7 Div1 teams. In Texas, there are 1463 high schools with a boy's football team. California only has 1191.


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## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> A couple of things to thing about.   First, to be successful as a photographer or artist requires just as much commitment as would be needed to be successful in any other profession.  This means long often random hours coupled with years of toil before the payoff starts to show.  Want to start a family?  Too bad.  Kids are a full time job unto themselves.  Even a relationship without kids requires that your other half be willing to recognize the level of commitment required.   Add to that the fact that retail photography and fine art photography aren't exactly huge moneymakers and you can see where this is going.
> 
> To go a bit deeper.  Being a photographer is about being an entrepreneur.   Being a small business owner is a risky endeavor in the best of times.   Unlike a salaried or hourly worker, there is no guarantee of payment.  So now you need to be committed, and willing to work under the level of uncertainty, while finding a partner who is willing to support you through that endeavor.   I've seen a lot of relationships strained a broken over just these issues.   For a woman to become a successful small business owner she has to not only deal with these issues, but be willing to either forgo family (something I've seen done), put off family, wait till the kids are grown, or find a man who is willing to either work with her or put his own career on hold to help support her goals.    A man doesn't have to miss work when his wife has a baby.  A man doesn't have to take time off work to breastfeed.   A man can stay focused on his business while his wife focuses on the children.  Sure, there are career women who manage to keep working while having kids, but for one, it tends to require a different kind of commitment from her husband than usual, or it requires a decent income to cover all the daycare.    Beyond that, add the number of women who, after having kids, decide they'd rather be with their kids than working and you can see how these things start to skew.



Substitute "photographer" with just about any other job title and your point would remain the same.


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

Designer said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Now with the advent of Women into the field, there has been an increase in the number of things photo'd. I would bet that females came up with some of the newer trends.
> ...


  Don't confuse new photographic trends with "woman's influence".    The technology has been changing at a breakneck pace, and that has brought a whole slew of changes to the industry.  It's no longer  enough to just be able to get technically good photos because now anyone can buy a camera that would do that automatically.  

I spend a lot of time over on the Canon boards, which are populated with _a lot _of working photogs and I can tell you most of the senior portrait sessions, family sessions, etc. I see shared over there are from men.   This is still a fairly male dominated field.   

   I would say that woman are more likely to want to do baby photos however,  just like woman are more likely to want to be pediatricians.


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## ronlane (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> This makes some reasonable sense. My own wife gave up career for opting to stay home with children seems many women still aren't career oriented.




Please don't say this standing  too close to me. Staying home with the kids is a career in itself. I couldn't do it. My wife and I'm sure a lot of other lady's work WAY harder at home than some do at their career. It was my wife's choice to do it and I'm glad she did. I can pretty much count on my kids being raised correctly, having food on the table or almost ready and some in the pantry and frig. I also never have to worry about my laundry being done.

YES, she does spoil me with all of this and letting me go to work. And she NEVER complains about it at all.


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## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> BTW: as far as fine art photography and getting in a gallery, a lot of curators take a dim view of "part time" artists. They expect artists to be committed 100% of the time to their art, rather than working a full time job and doing your "art" in your free time. This includes raising kids.


which would you say are more likelty to have this dim view. The women curators or the men curators?


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## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

limr said:


> At the predictable boob reference: :roll:



Hey! I have to put up with your constant dick jokes.


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

limr said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> > A couple of things to thing about.   First, to be successful as a photographer or artist requires just as much commitment as would be needed to be successful in any other profession.  This means long often random hours coupled with years of toil before the payoff starts to show.  Want to start a family?  Too bad.  Kids are a full time job unto themselves.  Even a relationship without kids requires that your other half be willing to recognize the level of commitment required.   Add to that the fact that retail photography and fine art photography aren't exactly huge moneymakers and you can see where this is going.
> ...



That's exactly my point.  Being a successful photographer is first and foremost being a successful businessperson.    That takes a lot of work,  I know from personal experience.   I see this from both sides, partly from my own experience running a small family business, and now from the other side where I've put my own career on hold to handle our kids while my wife finishes her residency.   Right now I literally _can't_ work, at least not in any meaningful endeavor that would make the pay worthwhile, until my girls are older.   I can relate to this issue from both sides.


----------



## Scatterbrained (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> > BTW: as far as fine art photography and getting in a gallery, a lot of curators take a dim view of "part time" artists. They expect artists to be committed 100% of the time to their art, rather than working a full time job and doing your "art" in your free time. This includes raising kids.
> ...


Both.   It's actually a bit of a sore point in the art world (painters mainly).   You go to areas like N.Y. and you see curators pushing "new" artists. The artists themselves are often rich kids and trust fund babies.   Meanwhile working class stiffs get passed over.


----------



## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> seems many women still aren't career oriented.



Again that is mostly society pressuring women to act a certain way. My wife, who works, gets a ton of **** from stay at home moms and is made to feel guilty for not staying home with our son. She would love to stay home but we can't afford a single income house hold.


----------



## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > At the predictable boob reference: :roll:
> ...



Oh yeah because I make those all the time 

Is it when I make disparaging remarks about how men love to compare lenses?


----------



## runnah (Apr 9, 2014)

limr said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



Well you use very clever metaphors, allegories and symbolism.

Damn you and your literary devices!


----------



## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

ronlane said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > This makes some reasonable sense. My own wife gave up career for opting to stay home with children seems many women still aren't career oriented.
> ...



Also don't say it in front of any woman who IS career-oriented. I'm currently doing an internship in a branch of the county district attorney's office. The county DA, btw, is a woman, I was offered the internship by another woman in a high position in the office, the head of this branch and both ADAs are women. Looking at the personnel in the other branches, this place is rotten with powerful women.


----------



## deveaushawn (Apr 9, 2014)

Females are better in everything.

Especially soup.

I like soup.


----------



## JacaRanda (Apr 9, 2014)

Designer said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Now with the advent of Women into the field, there has been an increase in the number of things photo'd. I would bet that females came up with some of the newer trends.
> ...



Flashback: This post reminded me there was a time I had a group interview for a job selling cutlery (probably around the mid 80's). Cutlery in that case were really sharp knives. I don't think I would have had much success driving around the oc with a bunch of blades. What was I thinking????


----------



## Gavjenks (Apr 9, 2014)

Runnah said:
			
		

> Did you mistake peers for meaning friends? Because that isn't what it means and I used it correctly. I think that is what you are getting hung up on.


Yeah, I am hung up on that, because why do your non-friend peers even KNOW that you prefer painting over football? Unless you're in galleries and magazines, in which case, joke's on them / what do you care? You're already validated and making money from your passions rather than losing money on game tickets.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Scatterbrained said:
> ...


interesting. so basically the more time you may have the more likely you will be understood as a accomplished artist. which would make you wonder why mwac isn't progressing to some degree as they may have more time than 60 hour a week joe.



runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > seems many women still aren't career oriented.
> ...


well if she cant stay home, I guess she cant. Afford is a relative term. sacrifice the new house, new car, cut corners. sometimes when people say that it is because they don't want to rearrange the budget or reduce their standard of living. Most I know, oddly enough, believe in this day and age women should work. I know I do. If I go to work then they can go to work. Equal rights!!  Many split finances 50/50. I think my wife is in the minority who thinks she shouldn't work (which is fine i suppose but I really love money so ...just a wake up call for me when she made that decision ive done some serious financial rearranging of the last ten years for her to be home). If you really wanted to you could probably find a way to have her home. And in many ways you might come out ahead as single income families statistically make less gross income but for some reason establish more wealth in the long run (they spend much less)


----------



## Gavjenks (Apr 9, 2014)

> _seems many women still aren't career oriented_


The word "still" in that sentence implies that the correct endpoint in the future is for them to on average be just as career oriented.

Why should that be the case? Are children inherently less important or fulfilling than money or ambition (taking a narrow view of ambition, at that. Power and influence very much do not necessitate a career)?


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Scatterbrained said:
> ...





ronlane said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > This makes some reasonable sense. My own wife gave up career for opting to stay home with children seems many women still aren't career oriented.
> ...


you like to be catered too. I get it. My wife brings me my coffee. I never complain about it.  No harm in feeling like a man of the castle. And im not suggesting being a sahm mom is a easy job by any means. I would go nuts trying to do it and being home all the time.
But I saw this a few years back and it comes to mind...






lol

there is another side to the photography question as well. I noticed men seem to be more interested in the gear than women and spend more on gear. Perhaps this is limitations on women spending money if they are mwac and not the primary earner? would this effect their ability to excel in the field and move up?


----------



## jenko (Apr 9, 2014)

I really think women are starting to come into their own in the arts. Don't forget, it has only been about a century that we have really been able to explore the arts. That is nothing compared to the hundreds of years before. Sure, there were a few women artists,  but the high arts (in the West) were not really an option for most women before the 20th century and even into the first half, it was dominated by men. We start to see a big change after the 60's. 

Personally, I think it is great when a stay at home mom picks up a camera, or a paint brush, or a piece of clay and uses it to express themselves. These women have stories to tell too, their lives and thoughts and ideas are just as important as anyone else.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Scatterbrained said:
> ...





Gavjenks said:


> > _seems many women still aren't career oriented_
> 
> 
> The word "still" in that sentence implies that the correct endpoint in the future is for them to on average be just as career oriented.
> ...


Because for us to progress I was under the impression we were abandoning the patriarchal society. And as mentioned, keeping that format has led women to be disadvantaged in gaining notoriety in the arts (such as photography). I wouldn't consider it a matter of children being less important. But of women being self sufficient and having the ability to equally engage in and make decisions with accompany responsibilities. Mostly so they can be equally acclaimed. If there are more women photographers, there makes sense that more women in general should become better at it and more women would be involved in the art world. Just be sheer numbers. no?

And runnah brought up the point of creativity being encouraged in women, and discouraged in men. Another facet. so that would mean women are more creative if just by learned or accepted behavior. So they really should be progressing in photography. least I would think..


----------



## TheFantasticG (Apr 9, 2014)

1. Obvious troll post is obvious.  2. Topic is intentionally meant to set off emotional responses and that's about it because it's built on a false assumption.  3. Nevermind.


----------



## kathyt (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.


----------



## TheFantasticG (Apr 9, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.



They are better at having children fo sho


----------



## bribrius (Apr 9, 2014)

okay. so no one here believes females are better at photography.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 9, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.



Well, I would take exception to that.  How high up a wall can you pee after 3 beers, and can you write your name in the snow??  

 :mrgreen:


----------



## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.



QFT.

Now someone go make me a sammich!


----------



## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

bribrius said:


> okay. so no one here believes females are better at photography.



No one believes that men are better at it either. It's not a thing that can be qualified either way, and it's useless to even try to generalize by gender. Individual women can be better at photography than individual men, and vice versa.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 9, 2014)

limr said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.
> ...



Be glad to.  But once you eet that sammich you need to........................





























As the late great Red Skelton would have said..."If I dood it, i'll get a whippin."    "I'll dood it."  :mrgreen:


----------



## limr (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh I know all about what happens to a person who demands sammiches. Just ask ratssass


----------



## paigew (Apr 9, 2014)

Since I am a native Texan I can vouch for the  crazy football. In high school they let us out at 12:00 for game days. You wouldn't even imagine the craziness that goes on during UT game days 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheFantasticG (Apr 9, 2014)

paigew said:


> Since I am a native Texan I can vouch for the  crazy football. In high school they let us out at 12:00 for game days. You wouldn't even imagine the craziness that goes on during UT game days   Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I graduated from Clear Lake HS and yeah, there were plenty hyped up about it, but honestly there was a large portion of the student body who didn't care... At least 30-50% that I saw. I'm guessing it's a bigger deal in the smaller towns but there are plenty of us in Tejas who just don't care.  Especially in the big cities like Houston.


----------



## paigew (Apr 9, 2014)

TheFantasticG said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > Since I am a native Texan I can vouch for the  crazy football. In high school they let us out at 12:00 for game days. You wouldn't even imagine the craziness that goes on during UT game days   Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> ...


I'm SURE it is more intense in a small town (which I lived in). I was one of the very few who didn't (and still doesn't) give a crap about football. Honestly, saying that out-loud here is almost committing a crime


----------



## Steve5D (Apr 9, 2014)

No...


----------



## minicoop1985 (Apr 9, 2014)

Are Canadians better at lumberjacking? Are the French better at surrendering? Are the British better at dental care? Does any of what I just said make any sense? NO! What's the point? People as a whole tend to be equal. If anything, there's certain mental illnesses that are more likely to cause those affected to be more creative in a variety of different ways. I'll say neither gender would stick out as making better photographers, but it's still Canada's fault.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 10, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Are Canadians better at lumberjacking? Are the French better at surrendering? Are the British better at dental care? Does any of what I just said make any sense? NO! What's the point? People as a whole tend to be equal. If anything, there's certain mental illnesses that are more likely to cause those affected to be more creative in a variety of different ways. I'll say neither gender would stick out as making better photographers, but it's still Canada's fault.


The French have never won a major war in history so you decide? :mrgreen:


----------



## Civchic (Apr 10, 2014)

These men v. women discussions are always so amusing to me.  Neither sex is better than the other at anything.  Society sometimes makes it easier for a member of one of the sexes to set up in something (like "pro" photography) but there is always a pyramid effect in any profession.  The bottom of the pyramid is a bunch of hacks, barely above amateur, the middle is a few successful hard-working journeymen, and at the top is a very few masters of their craft.  Traditionally, men have had more freedom in their productive years to persue their craft without the distraction of "all the other stuff" - birthing, nursing, nurturing, and raising children, homemaking, etc.  For every great master, there is either a lonely life of hard work, or a good woman taking care of his needs while he is free to chase the dream.

The phrase "behind every great man is a good woman" will hopefully be re-written in the near future to say "Behind every great master is a good partner".


----------



## paigew (Apr 10, 2014)

"I can do anything you can do better...I can do anything better than you" :king: :mrgreen:


----------



## mishele (Apr 10, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> No...


Yes.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2014)

if women are emotional or sensitive naturally, wouldn't that show through in the work?


----------



## mishele (Apr 10, 2014)

bribrius said:


> if women are emotional or sensitive naturally, wouldn't that show through in the work?



I'm not emotional!! I'm NOT!! Why do people always say that?! <runs off and cries>


----------



## PixelRabbit (Apr 10, 2014)

**pats Mish on the back, it's ok I'll get them**

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HER?!?!
















It's ok Mish they won't make you cry again.


----------



## limr (Apr 10, 2014)

bribrius said:


> if women are emotional or sensitive naturally, wouldn't that show through in the work?



Are we really pulling this old trope out?


----------



## kathyt (Apr 10, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> No...


Your single right? Just curious.


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > if women are emotional or sensitive naturally, wouldn't that show through in the work?
> ...


why not. I have nothing better to do. ive been out of work for two weeks and it isn't looking good for me going back for at least another four. so im really bored adhd, house bound...going nuts. trolling photo forums and staring at my cameras....


----------



## kathyt (Apr 10, 2014)

bribrius said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


I can give you a to-do list.


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, females are better at everything. Mods can close the thread now.
> ...




Im not very proficient with sammiches....
but i _*can*_ dig up cameras pretty well.  :mrgreen:


----------



## Steve5D (Apr 10, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Are Canadians better at lumberjacking? Are the French better at surrendering? Are the British better at dental care? Does any of what I just said make any sense? NO!



Well, there's that one part about France...


----------



## bribrius (Apr 10, 2014)

kathyt said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


have one from a few years ago still


----------



## Steve5D (Apr 10, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > No...
> ...



Single, but far from lonely.

I was married for 27 years. But the poor woman couldn't boil water without burning it, so I had to let her go.

Honestly, though, I don't see what that has to do with the question. Are women better at photography than men? Well, sure, some are, but I don't believe it has a single thing to do with being a woman. Conversely, there are men who are better photographers than some women, and it has nothing to do with being a man.

My answer would've been exactly the same if the question was asking if men were better photographers than women.

Who's a better driver? A man or a woman? Well, if the woman is my daughter, I'll concede that there are men who are better drivers (probably all of them). If you're talking about Danica Patrick, well, she's certainly a better driver than a lot of men.

Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it...


----------



## rexbobcat (Apr 10, 2014)

In my experience, it depends on the type of photography. Women in my area appear to be better at photographing children and couples. Men appear to be better at shooting sports/editorials and are more likely to photograph fine art and landscapes.  

Those are just my observations from the area I live in, however.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 10, 2014)

paigew said:


> "I can do anything you can do better...I can do anything better than you" :king: :mrgreen:


Really?  I would refer you back to this post.....
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...females-better-photography-5.html#post3203899


----------



## kathyt (Apr 10, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...


Were your arms broken? Did you let her go, or did she run? I am just pulling your leg, don't get your panties in a bundle.


----------



## pixmedic (Apr 10, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



27 years is a pretty good run. 
i will be married 15 years this September. together for 20. 
If my wife couldn't cook, i would have starved to death by now.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 10, 2014)

Something for y'all women folk to remember.

*Man's Rules for Women*

Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it            down. 

Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if          we can find the perfect present yet again!

Sometimes, we are not thinking about you. Live with it.

Do not ask us what we are thinking about unless you are prepared to            discuss such topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation, and NASCAR.

Sunday = sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides.            Let it be.

Shopping is NOT a sport, and no, we are never going to think of it            that way.

When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine.            Really.

Crying is blackmail.

Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do            not work. Strong hints do not work. Obvious hints do not work. Just            say it!

We don't remember dates. Mark birthdays and anniversaries on a calendar.            Remind us frequently beforehand.

Most guys own three pairs of shoes - tops. What makes you think we'd            be any good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with            your dress?

Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's            what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.

Check your own oil! Please.

Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact,            all comments become null and void after 7 days.

If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect            us to act like soap opera guys.

If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways            makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

Let us ogle. We are going to look anyway; it's genetic.

You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done            - not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.

Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.

Christopher Columbus did not need directions, and neither do we.

The relationship is never going to be like it was the first two months            we were going out. Get over it. And quit whining to your girlfriends.

ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach,            for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have            no idea what mauve is.

If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.

We are not mind readers and we never will be. Our lack of mind-reading            ability is not proof of how little we care about you.

If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act            like nothing's wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth            the hassle.

I'm in shape. - ROUND is a shape.​


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 10, 2014)

OP...I don't look at commercial photogs. I look at the iconic ones. 

In my area of street and doc photog I think women are as good as men in doc work - but not as good in street work. They do have some great women street photogs. But _*in general*_, women are too timid for street work. They seem to need approval first. But once they are allowed in, they can do great doc work. 

Atwood, Garcia Rodero, Model, Freedman, Ferrato, Mark, Bourke-White, Dater and Arbus are some of my lady favs. Garcia Rodero is probably my all time favorite. Lots of great lady photogs out there. When I look at my fav list, maybe 30% are women. So I wont say they are better or not. But they can be as good or better than a man.


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 10, 2014)

SpikeyJohnson said:


> I think the reason for that can also be the availability of the male photographers. In my area ("Happy Valley" Utah Valley, Utah) there are a lot of women who don't have jobs so they can take care of the kids. Many of them do photography on the side to pay for little things like day trips with the kids and such. While most the men here go to work from 8-4 or 9-5. Most mother's also buy nice camera's with large aspirations and just begin taking photo's of the children. Eventually they move up by educating themselves via the internet and become excellent photographers, or in some cases, horrible. Hence the "a mom with a camera" term.
> 
> Something I have also considered is societies views on men doing artistic jobs. I don't feel this way but I think many people look down upon men doing artistic or creative ideas that don't involve heavy lifting, welding, automotive, computers or business. Most people don't see photography as a business, so when the think photographer they think lazy when really it is a lot of work to pay the bills.



Availability also helps women with 'getting in' sometimes. If I shot a kid on the street I'm a pervert. If a lady does it, not a big deal. If a lady wants to shoot hookers she can make friends and get in. If I want to I am asked for money...men are customers, women are friends.


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Women are "allowed" to be more creative, but men are the ones who have traditionally gotten recognized and paid for creativity. Just like women are expected to do the cooking because we're supposedly so much better at it, and yet how many top chefs are men?
> 
> As for photography...yes, men supposedly do the hard-hitting documentary and journalistic and sports photography because they are brave and adventurous and blah-dee-f**king-blah, while women open businesses to take pictures of children and weddings. Because, y'know, I have a uterus, so therefore I love children and weddings. And since it's too hard to break into being a photojournalist (before because women weren't hired in high numbers and now because there are hardly any photojournalists of either gender anymore), they turn to what still likely pays a photographer's bills more reliably than other genres.
> 
> For the record, I DESPISE weddings. I don't despise children but they do make me fidgety I'm also not going to be around them any more than I have to be.



They got some ladies doing great doc work. But they are not as numerous as men doing the tough / dangerous work.


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 10, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> > BTW: as far as fine art photography and getting in a gallery, a lot of curators take a dim view of "part time" artists. They expect artists to be committed 100% of the time to their art, rather than working a full time job and doing your "art" in your free time. This includes raising kids.
> ...



With museums, about 75% are women curators. But curators are not museum quality photogs themselves - female or male.


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 10, 2014)

jenko said:


> I really think women are starting to come into their own in the arts. Don't forget, it has only been about a century that we have really been able to explore the arts. That is nothing compared to the hundreds of years before. Sure, there were a few women artists, but the high arts (in the West) were not really an option for most women before the 20th century and even into the first half, it was dominated by men. We start to see a big change after the 60's.
> 
> Personally, I think it is great when a stay at home mom picks up a camera, or a paint brush, or a piece of clay and uses it to express themselves. These women have stories to tell too, their lives and thoughts and ideas are just as important as anyone else.



They have some great women artists too. I like many of them.


----------



## limr (Apr 10, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Something for y'all women folk to remember.
> 
> *Man's Rules for Women*Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it            down.
> 
> ...




TL;DR.

Women's rules for men:

Don't be a dick.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 10, 2014)

Quick FYI.. If one clicks on the Quote Multiple post Icon, one can then select Reply to Thread and have all of the selected posts in one message to reply to instead of several individual posts.


----------



## table1349 (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Something for y'all women folk to remember.
> ...


----------



## limr (Apr 10, 2014)

Yeah, that's too long too 

I like to keep it simple. I'll use a gender-inclusive term this time:

Don't be an a**hole, no matter if you have the dangly bits or the non-dangly bits.


----------



## Whiskeyjack (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Yeah, that's too long too
> 
> I like to keep it simple. I'll use a gender-inclusive term this time:
> 
> Don't be an a**hole, no matter if you have the dangly bits or the non-dangly bits.



I just read all of these out loud to my husband and we got a great chuckle. Most of these just generally add up to "don't be an asshat" which I think should just be the standard one should strive to achieve as a human being.


----------



## JacaRanda (Apr 10, 2014)

If I really really really had to choose only one of those -- DAMN THAT'S TOUGH!  I think I would have to go with "_Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question."  
_Simply because the best communication skill I have (sometimes the only one) is phrasing my questions very well.


----------



## imagemaker46 (Apr 10, 2014)

Just because in one area there are more doesn't make them better, it just means that more own cameras in that area.

Are men better NASCAR drivers?  What about Danica Patrick?  Oh wait never mind, bad example.


----------



## limr (Apr 10, 2014)

My guess is that this woman could drive circles around any one of you boys:


----------



## IByte (Apr 10, 2014)

mishele said:


> Yes.



Maybe


----------



## IByte (Apr 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Yeah, that's too long too
> 
> I like to keep it simple. I'll use a gender-inclusive term this time:
> 
> Don't be an a**hole, no matter if you have the dangly bits or the non-dangly bits.



Sometimes you feel like a nut,  sometimes you don't


----------



## manaheim (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> My guess is that this woman could drive circles around any one of you boys:



I think I'm in love.


----------



## IronMaskDuval (Apr 11, 2014)

They make better subjects. That's for sure.


----------



## slackercruster (Apr 11, 2014)

Forgot to mention another couple of gals whose work I like. Annie L and Donna Ferrato


----------



## Braineack (Apr 11, 2014)

I took this photo of my wife and niece:








my wife took this of me and my niece:








case closed.


----------



## limr (Apr 11, 2014)

You're right, that does settle things. She's better


----------



## manaheim (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> She's better ...



...looking.


----------



## rexbobcat (Apr 11, 2014)

slackercruster said:


> OP...I don't look at commercial photogs. I look at the iconic ones.
> 
> In my area of street and doc photog I think women are as good as men in doc work - but not as good in street work. They do have some great women street photogs. But _*in general*_, women are too timid for street work. They seem to need approval first. But once they are allowed in, they can do great doc work.
> 
> Atwood, Garcia Rodero, Model, Freedman, Ferrato, Mark, Bourke-White, Dater and Arbus are some of my lady favs. Garcia Rodero is probably my all time favorite. Lots of great lady photogs out there. When I look at my fav list, maybe 30% are women. So I wont say they are better or not. But they can be as good or better than a man.



But...many of the iconic photographers were commercial photographers...I mean Irving Penn didn't just create iconic fashion portraits because he was bored. lol

Maybe you mean contemporary photographers?


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## table1349 (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> My guess is that this woman could drive circles around any one of you boys:


Actually with what I have been doing for the last 30+ years I would take that challenge.  It would be fun to see.


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## Braineack (Apr 11, 2014)

manaheim said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > She's better ...
> ...




what does that say about me


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## runnah (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> My guess is that this woman could drive circles around any one of you boys:



Sabine! God she is hot. 

Especially when she is bouncing up and down yelling faster faster...

oh yeah and she can drive good.

p.s. I don't think I am helping things.


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## runnah (Apr 11, 2014)




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## runnah (Apr 11, 2014)




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## limr (Apr 11, 2014)

If I had three wishes, one of them would be to be able to drive like a rally driver. They're insanely good. That last drift around the switchback turn at 0.38 was beautiful.


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## runnah (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> If I had three wishes, one of them would be to be able to drive like a rally driver. They're insanely good. That last drift around the switchback turn at 0.38 was beautiful.



I want a french accent.


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## runnah (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> If I had three wishes, one of them would be to be able to drive like a rally driver. They're insanely good. That last drift around the switchback turn at 0.38 was beautiful.


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## bribrius (Apr 11, 2014)

limr said:


> If I had three wishes, one of them would be to be able to drive like a rally driver. They're insanely good. That last drift around the switchback turn at 0.38 was beautiful.



I used to like nascar, until I saw rally racing. Then I realized nascar was for the ones that cant drive.

Few rain drops in nascar, they stop the race. six inches of snow in rally they change tires.


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## table1349 (Apr 11, 2014)

This is the best way to learn:


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## limr (Apr 11, 2014)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > If I had three wishes, one of them would be to be able to drive like a rally driver. They're insanely good. That last drift around the switchback turn at 0.38 was beautiful.



Now THAT was hot! Being able to drive like a rally driver would be awesome. Being able to drive like a _Finnish_ rally driver would be beyond description.

My boyfriend informs me there is a school in New Hampshire and has encouraged me to start saving


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