# Pricing for production cost vs personal value.



## fooby (Jun 13, 2014)

I was wondering how you guys would go about charging for your own equipment? Do you charge the client a sort of "rental" charge for each piece of gear you use, or do you just take this out of your personal cost and only charge for production costs specific to the shoot? Surely it makes no sense to add rental costs for gear specific to a certain shoot as against taking it out of your personal value because you have invested in said piece of equipment for your business.

This is just one question of many from a photographer looking to get into the world of commercial photography. At the moment, I'm just putting all of my time and money into investing in myself and building a great portfolio. For now I'll either work for free for clients that are also just starting out, or full price. I don't want to go somewhere in between and devalue myself or other local photographers.

The joys of working out business!


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## Steve5D (Jun 13, 2014)

Oh, this should be interesting...


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## Overread (Jun 13, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Oh, this should be interesting...



Top line above a first post in a thread there is a control bar.

Go along to "Thread Tool"

In the drop down menu select the "Subscribe to this Thread" option

Fill in the details of the type of subscription you want and hey presto its done. You can stalk the thread all you want without having to add any posts.


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## fooby (Jun 13, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Oh, this should be interesting...


 Hopefully in a good way!


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## pixmedic (Jun 13, 2014)

I will remind everyone that "the aspiring professionals forum" was created specifically for people new to the business aspect of photography looking for non judgmental answers, and the normal "telling it like it is" or "I'm just being honest" excuses for hazing will not fly here.

While it may often fly in the other forum areas, Harsh penalties will be issued to anyone not playing nice here.

Carry on.


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## KmH (Jun 13, 2014)

Yes. For commercial shoots I added a line item rental charge to cover wear and tear on my equipment.

For retail shoots my cost-of-doing-business (CODB) figure included an amount for equipment wear and tear.


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## Light Guru (Jun 13, 2014)

fooby said:


> I was wondering how you guys would go about charging for your own equipment? Do you charge the client a sort of "rental" charge for each piece of gear you use, or do you just take this out of your personal cost and only charge for production costs specific to the shoot? Surely it makes no sense to add rental costs for gear specific to a certain shoot as against taking it out of your personal value because you have invested in said piece of equipment for your business.
> 
> This is just one question of many from a photographer looking to get into the world of commercial photography. At the moment, I'm just putting all of my time and money into investing in myself and building a great portfolio. For now I'll either work for free for clients that are also just starting out, or full price. I don't want to go somewhere in between and devalue myself or other local photographers.
> 
> The joys of working out business!



Well if you are actually renting gear then yes you should simply pass that cost on. 

You are only asking a part of a bigger question. Equipment upkeep, future equipment, future software upgreads and taxes are all part of the cost of doing business. 

Use a Cost of Doing Business Calculates like this to help you figure it all out. 
https://nppa.org/page/3275


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## fooby (Jun 13, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> fooby said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering how you guys would go about charging for your own equipment? Do you charge the client a sort of "rental" charge for each piece of gear you use, or do you just take this out of your personal cost and only charge for production costs specific to the shoot? Surely it makes no sense to add rental costs for gear specific to a certain shoot as against taking it out of your personal value because you have invested in said piece of equipment for your business.
> ...


Thank you, what I'm a little confused about is where the line is drawn between rental and purchased equipment. As somebody who isn't yet making enough to invest in much expensive equipment, should I charge the same for a rental as I should for my own gear, or simply charge for the rentals and take my own equipment into account for my CODB? For example would I charge the same amount per day for my 6D as a rental company would?


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Jun 13, 2014)

I would always charge more. Let them do their own footwork if they want a better deal.


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## Overread (Jun 13, 2014)

A rental company already has its insurance, cost of doing business profit and other costs all rolled into its rental price (and factoring in the value of the item being rented out as well). Whilst you should certainly have a value annually as to how much insurance, equipment maintenance and upgrade/replacement will likely cost that should be factored into your overall running costs and then broken down into each "client" based on your estimated hours working for the year.

So the client is paying for your equipment, but its just a part of your general costs of doing business; furthermore the client isn't specifically renting your equipment for the shoot as such; they are hiring your whole package as a photographer. 

The only time you should really consider charging a full rental cost is if the client requires something out of your normal line of work that requires you to rent equipment to cover that need.


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## Overread (Jun 13, 2014)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> I would always charge more. Let them do their own footwork if they want a better deal.




Charging more or less requires one to at least have a good understanding of the actual value of their time and equipment - you need to know where that point is so that you can ensure that you're at least equal (ticking over) and ideally beating that value - and you know when a client keeps lowballing way under it that you're best to drop that client (unless you want to give them a gift of your time and efforts of course).


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## fooby (Jun 13, 2014)

Overread said:


> A rental company already has its insurance, cost of doing business profit and other costs all rolled into its rental price (and factoring in the value of the item being rented out as well). Whilst you should certainly have a value annually as to how much insurance, equipment maintenance and upgrade/replacement will likely cost that should be factored into your overall running costs and then broken down into each "client" based on your estimated hours working for the year.
> 
> So the client is paying for your equipment, but its just a part of your general costs of doing business; furthermore the client isn't specifically renting your equipment for the shoot as such; they are hiring your whole package as a photographer.
> 
> The only time you should really consider charging a full rental cost is if the client requires something out of your normal line of work that requires you to rent equipment to cover that need.


Thank you, very helpful response! So for rentals such as additional strobes / studio space if required should be part of my cost of business (even if I have to rent them to begin with), whilst specialist equipment specific to that particular shoot should be charged as a production cost?


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## Overread (Jun 13, 2014)

Anything regular that you have to pay out is basically your cost of doing business - its the amount you have to pay to function to deliver your advertised product/service. The key there is that it means that something like a studio space instead of coming out of each clients pocket direct, instead comes out of every client that hires you for a month - that way it helps keep your costs down (I'm not saying undercharge, but you need to have a competitive rate). 

And yes anything ontop of that that you have to hire in should be a specialist charge because its requiring a one-time increase to your cost of doing business, so that cost has to be covered by the client (again unless you have reason to discount for the client).


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## fooby (Jun 13, 2014)

Overread said:


> Anything regular that you have to pay out is basically your cost of doing business - its the amount you have to pay to function to deliver your advertised product/service. The key there is that it means that something like a studio space instead of coming out of each clients pocket direct, instead comes out of every client that hires you for a month - that way it helps keep your costs down (I'm not saying undercharge, but you need to have a competitive rate).
> 
> And yes anything ontop of that that you have to hire in should be a specialist charge because its requiring a one-time increase to your cost of doing business, so that cost has to be covered by the client (again unless you have reason to discount for the client).


 This is exactly what I wanted to know - thank you!


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## bratkinson (Jun 17, 2014)

About a year and a half ago, MLeek posted a well written, detailed list of how to the Cost of Doing Business (CODB).  If I were ever going to go pro, I'd review her posting first.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/304732-finding-your-codb-your-hourly-rate.html


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 17, 2014)

I buy all the gear I need to run my business, there are times when I get really short notice shoots and don't have the time to try and rent the gear. If I don't have the gear I don't take the job.  I know lots of guys rent lights for bigger shoots, I don't know if they pass on the rental charges to the clients.

I suppose it all comes down to what field of photography and how often the gear is required.


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## Overread (Jun 17, 2014)

I suspect it also depends on how much profit you take per shoot as well. If you take a very small amount of profit then any increase to the working cost (eg rental of gear for the shoot) is more likely to be passed onto the client - whilst if you've a much larger profit margin then chances are you can pass on less or even no rental charge to the client since, whilst you take less profit for the shoot, you still profit and cover your expenses. 

How healthy the company is in general might also be a factor; if you're taking regular jobs and the income is going well then you've more chance to discount for your customers; whilst if work is more erratic you've, again, less of a margin to allow for increased working expense. This can also be a seasonal thing where you find you've heavy and slow periods where you'd ideally need to charge enough so that whilst you work through the heavy months you also build up enough to see you through the slower periods, again affecting how much of a "hit" you can take on a job before its impacting you.


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## tirediron (Jun 17, 2014)

There are two types of gear costs.  (1) Gear I own; and (2) Gear I don't own, but need for a job.  If I own the gear, it's simple, it's built in to the price already.  I have an estimated life for every major piece of gear (bodies are 5 years, lenses 8, etc, etc) and the cost of those items plus 10% is divided over their project lifespan and added into my CODB calculations as a 'hard cost' right along with my insurance, gasoline, and Internet access.  If it's gear that I don't own and rent, then the full cost of the rental, plus a small mark-up for my time to arrange the rental is added as a line-item on the invoice.  If it's something I need and plan to buy, and have a reasonable chance of using again, then I generally just file that under 'unexpected costs' and get on with it.


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