# It's just all a number's game.



## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

I know I'll probably get crap for this post, but listen. I needed to write this just get it off my chest. You don't have to reply.

For the last year or so, I've been stressing out over my photography and having constant negative thoughts about my work whether or not it's good enough. I don't even take photos for myself anymore, I'm pretty much taking photos for other people in hopes they might like it and when they don't, I feel like crap and depressed. I feel like giving up, and it's getting to the point it's starting affect not just my mental abilities but my health as well. Sometimes it feels like I'm going to have a stroke over it.

I found out what the problem I think is. It's social media. The notifications doesn't help either, luckily you can disable those. But I remember when I started shooting many years ago, I didn't care what people thought or how many likes, comments or favorites I got. I just took photos and shared them and had fun doing it. But lately it's all about numbers. It's about trying to get the most comments or likes/favorites rather than taking pictures for myself.

Lately I've been trying to play the Flickr game as in trying to get on the "explore" page by uploading certain times, using certain groups, following trends, using certain tags on this particular day, commenting and favoriting 100s of other people's photos and quite frankly, it's time consuming and stressful. I spend more time doing that than actually trying to make photos.

There is SO MUCH discussions about how you should shoot only *ONE *single subject, use just one lens and or focal length, have one editing style only, process your photos so they all look the same, blah blah. That's BORING to me. I'd flat out get bored. Am I wrong about this? I'm assuming most of these people are saying this because it will 90% of the time get you a higher following on social media instead of someone like me who likes to shoot a number of different subjects. But I guess that is wrong. It's all about numbers right?

I'm not saying it's wrong to only shoot one subject, that's perfectly fine if you have a passion in that one subject, like wildlife, portraits, street, landscapes..etc. But what if you like all those subjects? Does that make you not a photographer?

Photography is suppose to be a form of self expression, right?

I follow so many amazing photographers out there and I love their work and I'm saying to myself, I wish I was them. They can upload any photo, even a crappy snapshot and they'll get instantly thousands of likes, favorites and comments on how great their photo is simply because they have a 25,000+ followers.

I also know photographers who just as amazing, if not better and they have zero followers and their work is incredible. Yet, they don't give a crap whether or not their photos gets views, comments or likes, they simply do it because they love it.

I don't know what to do anymore. I'm so lost. I don't want to give up photography, I love taking photos and some people seem to like them and others don't, I guess that's just the way it is. Sure, I could stop sharing my photos on these social media sites but I want to share my photos with the world. What's wrong with that?

I think once I can get over these negative thoughts that linger in my mind about my photography and just take photos for myself and not for others, maybe that will actually help me become a better photographer over time instead of trying so hard to be "liked" by the world.


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## SquarePeg (Jul 19, 2017)

Likes and Views can be a bit addicting and in the grand scheme of things, unless you're a pro and looking for marketing opportunities, they mean absolutely nothing.  Some of my most liked photos on Facebook or Instagram were just quickie phone shots that caught a fun moment or shots that I totally over edited on Snapseed and would never deem great or even good photos but they were all I had of a particular scene or person. 

Most everyone is disappointed when they share a photo that they think is great and it doesn't get the Likes they thought it would or it gets criticized in a forum like TPF.  And yes, there are many photographers who have thousands of followers who like their mediocre (IMO) photos but that shouldn't matter to you.  You're a good photographer.  You have some great shots on your Flickr and you are dedicated to improving.  That's all you need to care about.  Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and what everyone else thinks and just do what you love.  If you love sharing your photos on social media then do so.  Would you still take photos if no one would ever see them?  I know that I would.


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## jaomul (Jul 19, 2017)

If you are that worried about what others think it might be a good idea to talk to a professional about such things. Sometimes there may be reasons you can address to help with this. The thing is if you give up photography, you may be giving up something you like only for the same thing or similar experiences to manifest somewhere else. I don't know you only from the forum, but you use strong words like stress and depression. Talk to someone for yourself and it may make you more content in other aspects of life also. I'm no expert but it can't hurt. BTW I like a lot of photos on flickr and other places but don't always hit the like button, others are probably similar


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## benhasajeep (Jul 19, 2017)

Are you talking about being a good photographer or winning a popularity contest?  You have to remember some of these people have fans.  And well these people are on the band wagon.  They will agree with someone else even if they don't mean it or understand what they are agreeing too.  Just so they can belong!  This happens with all sorts online.  Just look at some of the Reality Stars online.  They don't produce a single thing, or supply anything to society other than possibly some entertainment.  And yet they have millions of followers who would agree instantly they were great photographers when they post a selfie of themselves in their underwear from their cell phones.  It's because they want to be associated with someone.  Even if they don't believe in that person or what that person stands for.  They just want to belong.  

This also occurs with very famous people.  Ansel Adams is a good example.  Many of his subpar works have been released as "found" work.  What it really is, are pictures that didn't make HIS cut.  And he filed them away.  And yet now that he's long gone, people look at them and say wow this great shot from Ansel Adams.  And yet it was a picture he rejected!  But because he was famous, his mistakes or subpar work (according to himself) now become great works.  You can't compete against that!  So, why worry about it.  Let your surviving family members worry about it after your famous and long gone!


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

Social Media is a faux method of determining if your photo is good or not.
There are so many technically absolutely horrible photos that get the "beautiful shot" etc etc.
It's more of a extended family morale support group than anything else.  Not anything to do with actual photographic norms.

You have to do photography for yourself.
Not for others, unless they are paying you for it.


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## BrentC (Jul 19, 2017)

If you have Netflix you should watch Season 3, episode 1 of Black Mirror.  Very apropos.


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## table1349 (Jul 19, 2017)

That is one of the problems with "Social Media."  It is generally neither Social nor is it media.   I think you are on the right track.  Shoot for @nerwin not for all the unknown electronic junkies.


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## waday (Jul 19, 2017)

I agree with the others, don't worry about likes/etc. I used to at first, but then I didn't care, haha.

That said, it also depends on what subject you post, when you post, and what hashtags you use. Notice, I didn't say the quality of the shot.

For example, my photos on IG usually get around 30-50 likes. Rare occasions, I'll get something above 60-70. I don't pimp my account out, nor do I do the "like for like" thing. In fact, I feel like I rarely post. The other day, I posted a picture of french fries around lunchtime (I think you liked it, haha). A friend of mine has an IG account for food (she's a big foodie, gets thousand plus likes on her food shots, big yelper, etc). I used a couple of her hashtags. 

Wow! I had 100+ likes in about a half-hour. Far more than usual. That's not a lot, but it was a lot compared to my norm.

That said, it was a photo of french fries. I mean, not exactly breaking-the-internet, beautiful photo. No Beyonce with twins photo. 

Anyways, back to foodie friend. Her shots are mostly gratuitous shots of food, cheese, ice cream, etc. People like food. It doesn't matter how good the photo is (or how bad), they like the subject in the photo. So, she gets likes. Lots and lots of likes.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

waday said:


> I agree with the others, don't worry about likes/etc. I used to at first, but then I didn't care, haha.
> 
> That said, it also depends on what subject you post, when you post, and what hashtags you use. Notice, I didn't say the quality of the shot.
> 
> ...



Haha yeah. You can't go wrong with french fries. 

It's kind of the same thing for me. If I post nature shots, I get likes. If I post pictures of car stuff, I don't get many likes. Except from friends. It's odd. 

I often write descriptions in my IG posts and some people will write back with comments about it which means they actually took the time to read it, they didn't just double tap and means more to me than just a like. But kind of makes you feel like crap when you are use to photos gettin 30-60 likes and then one or two photos with 10. 

I bet it has a lot to do with algorithms too.


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## Braineack (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Photography is suppose to be a form of self expression, right?



cat expression.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

Braineack said:


> nerwin said:
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> > Photography is suppose to be a form of self expression, right?
> ...



My cat died


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## BrentC (Jul 19, 2017)

Surprising enough, since I have worked in the IT industry for 25 years, I have always stayed away from social media.  Forums are the closest I get and I only use them for my hobbies.  Don't have twitter, instagram or Facebook.   I see how these take away so much time from people.  I'd rather spend my time doing something real.  Also rather not have my life online.

Flickr is probably the closest I have got to social media.  I started using it for somewhere to view my photos from anywhere and also to post in the forum.  I am still not that skilled a photographer so never really expected to get a lot of likes or faves.  But a few times a fell into that trap of thinking why people didn't like a certain photo that I thought was good.

To be honest I would prefer, at this point, to get less likes but heavier criticism.   I have so much more to learn and its the heavier criticism that helps the most.


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## Braineack (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Braineack said:
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## vintagesnaps (Jul 19, 2017)

Rethink how you're using social media. Why do you feel like you want 'the world' to see your photos? the ENTIRE world?? If you keep putting your photos 'out' there to that degree who knows what you'll get (but it will probably continue to be the same popularity contest as now). If you share with people you know instead of everybody on planet Earth maybe you'd get more satisfaction out of it. Or try finding groups that suit your interests.


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

My social media is locked down to Friends and Friends of Friends.
No "entire world" and no searching to find me if not in the above groups.


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## Derrel (Jul 19, 2017)

The first few replies I gave the agree code to, because I agree with almost everything that was said. I think #OptimizeAsianIsReallyTheKeyToInstagramLikes.HilariousTypoThereTextToSpeechInANoisyEnvironment . I'm going to leave those hilarious typos there. Again hashtags are very important. I don't use my Instagram much. But I tried #IngWithPopularTagsAndGot6To10TimesAsManyLikesAsWithNoTags


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Haha yeah. You can't go wrong with french fries.
> 
> It's kind of the same thing for me. If I post nature shots, I get likes. If I post pictures of car stuff, I don't get many likes. Except from friends. It's odd.
> 
> ...


Cars are very subjective.  First they have to (a) like the car, (b) like the colors, (c) like any add-on parts, and after that ... (d) like the shot

For instance.  I like motorcycles.  But you'll get a like on only certain motorcycles.  For instance a Ducati ST or SS.  But not on a 996 or newer or the Monsters, etc.  And preferable in RED.  not in black or white or anything like that.  And probably no harleys .. a handful of Hondas in certain colors, and a Triumph or two.  And probably all Aprilias no matter the color, even their scooters.

But you may get a like from me on french fries, with or without mustard, or ketchup or chili, hot peppers ....

so I'm peculiar on one item, but no so much on another.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

I noticed that most people will like on anything on Instagram if it's colorful enough. 

Regardless. Why should I waste my time trying to gain views, likes & comments? Is it worth the effort trying to pursue? I'm thinking I should just post share my photos like I've been and if people like it, then they like it. If not, then oh well. But I probably shouldn't feel down if a particular photo doesn't get any recognition even if I think it's a great photo, they don't need to like it. I do.


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## SCraig (Jul 19, 2017)

Seriously?  You honestly let a bunch of people you don't know determine whether you get fulfillment from something you truly enjoy?

Word of advice:  The hell with em'.  Who cares?

Take note of photographers you admire and over time you will subconsciously start to emulate them in ways.  You probably won't notice but your photography will improve.  Just keep in mind that unless you are trying to sell them to someone else there is one and only one person anywhere in the world that has the final word on your photos, and that's you.  Most of us reach that point sooner or later but it's up to you as to whether you put the camera down for good before you get there.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

SCraig said:


> Seriously?  You honestly let a bunch of people you don't know determine whether you get fulfillment from something you truly enjoy?
> 
> Word of advice:  The hell with em'.  Who cares?
> 
> Take note of photographers you admire and over time you will subconsciously start to emulate them in ways.  You probably won't notice but your photography will improve.  Just keep in mind that unless you are trying to sell them to someone else there is one and only one person anywhere in the world that has the final word on your photos, and that's you.  Most of us reach that point sooner or later but it's up to you as to whether you put the camera down for good before you get there.



But isn't it wrong to emulate another photographer?


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

here's a test 
take a picture of yourself .. in one hand holding a container of french fries and in the other enjoying eating a few

see how many likes you get
make sure it's a cellphone shot .. and not a very good one at that.

that should show you how unimportant 'likes" are


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## SCraig (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> But isn't it wrong to emulate another photographer?


Do you adhere to the so-called "Rule of Thirds" from time to time?  Then you are already emulating somebody.  Do you read and learn from what you read and use the advice?  Then you are already emulating somebody.  Do you listen to advice given here and then try it yourself?  Then you are already emulating somebody.

Everybody emulates others in one way or another.  But we temper that emulation with our own style and what we have learned from others, and the combination becomes uniquely ours own.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

astroNikon said:


> here's a test
> take a picture of yourself .. in one hand holding a container of french fries and in the other enjoying eating a few
> 
> see how many likes you get
> ...



I don't wanna get harassed taking picture of someone eating fries.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

SCraig said:


> nerwin said:
> 
> 
> > But isn't it wrong to emulate another photographer?
> ...



Good point, I didn't think about it in that way. 

Now, do you think photography is considered an art form? I was reading a comment today about how photography isn't a true art form as you are only taking pictures of real life that's already there, you didn't create anything like a painting or something. Basically plagiarism. Is that what a lot of people think photographers are?


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## SCraig (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Good point, I didn't think about it in that way.
> 
> Now, do you think photography is considered an art form? I was reading a comment today about how photography isn't a true art form as you are only taking pictures of real life that's already there, you didn't create anything like a painting or something. Basically plagiarism. Is that what a lot of people think photographers are?


In my opinion, as soon as someone comes up with a single firm and true definition of "Art" perhaps that question can be answered correctly.  Some people do think photography is an art form, some don't.  I personally feel that photography doesn't have to be art but it can be if the photographer, or the person viewing the photograph, so desires.  Is a photograph of a smiling child or a cat sleeping in a window art?  Maybe and then again maybe not.  It just depends on how it is interpreted and what the particular person's definition of "Art" happens to be.


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## waday (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> astroNikon said:
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> > here's a test
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Put it on continuous mode, and you might get some funny ones of them trying to yell with fries in their mouth?


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

waday said:


> nerwin said:
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if he wants to make it more artsy, wear mirrored sunglasses and show the back end of the container with no emblem, but through the glasses see the container emblem.  So much one could do visually "animating" just eating french fries to get a bunch of likes.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

Stop it. I'm getting hungry.


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## waday (Jul 19, 2017)

Derrel said:


> The first few replies I gave the agree code to, because I agree with almost everything that was said. I think #OptimizeAsianIsReallyTheKeyToInstagramLikes.HilariousTypoThereTextToSpeechInANoisyEnvironment . I'm going to leave those hilarious typos there. Again hashtags are very important. I don't use my Instagram much. But I tried #IngWithPopularTagsAndGot6To10TimesAsManyLikesAsWithNoTags


This, definitely.

If you really want to up the number of likes based on hashtags, pick hashtags that don't have _as many photos_ attached to them. For example (I'm making up numbers here), say #love has 43 million photos and #loveall has 4,000 photos. Your photo is likely to get noticed more in #loveall than #love. 

And then realize that you just spent 30 minutes trying to pick out the best hashtags that upped your like count by 10%. And that half of them are just bots that automatically liked your photo based on what your hashtags were. Oh, that new follower? You posted french fries? Now you have 5 new followers that are "health" or "food" related accounts that automatically followed you based on your hashtags to get you to follow back. They'll automatically unfollow you within a day.

And then finally realize that in the end, you're not any richer.

Even the _time of day_ matters on IG. If you post a photo of your lunch at 12 PM EST, you're going to get people on the east coast eating lunch, browsing IG, liking your photo. If you post a photo of your lunch at 3 PM EST, you'll probably get people from the west coast liking your photo. Think of the commute home, as well. If you want likes, people on the commute home, people on the train home in NYC/other large cities between 4 and 6, generally. If you post at 7, you probably missed the rush of people that have their face in their phone, because now they're eating and taking pictures of their dinner plate.

And, someone mentioned the algorithm? Yeah, good luck getting to the top of your followers' feeds if you don't post regularly and they don't like your posts.

It's a rat race that is extremely difficult to get ahead in.


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## astroNikon (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Stop it. I'm getting hungry.


that's why food gets so many likes.
you can't eat a car.
... easily.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

waday said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > The first few replies I gave the agree code to, because I agree with almost everything that was said. I think #OptimizeAsianIsReallyTheKeyToInstagramLikes.HilariousTypoThereTextToSpeechInANoisyEnvironment . I'm going to leave those hilarious typos there. Again hashtags are very important. I don't use my Instagram much. But I tried #IngWithPopularTagsAndGot6To10TimesAsManyLikesAsWithNoTags
> ...



I use Google Keep and I have keep "my" tags I use often for photos depending on the subject and I just just copy and paste. Maybe I need to make one for cars, food, etc instead of a general one. Even so, is it worth the effort?


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

astroNikon said:


> nerwin said:
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> > Stop it. I'm getting hungry.
> ...



That isn't true for Michel Lotito.


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## BrentC (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> waday said:
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Well according to your first post its probably not worth the effort if all it does is give you stress.
But seriously watch that Black Mirror episode I mentioned earlier.  It shows a future where social media, being liked and disliked,  determines your social ranking and privilege.


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## nerwin (Jul 19, 2017)

BrentC said:


> nerwin said:
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> > waday said:
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Isn't that the way it already is today?


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## waday (Jul 19, 2017)

nerwin said:


> BrentC said:
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No, that would be money (and skin color).


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## SquarePeg (Jul 19, 2017)

waday said:


> because now they're eating and taking pictures of their dinner plate.


  made me lol



nerwin said:


> Isn't that the way it already is today?


  we're heading in that direction


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## DanOstergren (Jul 20, 2017)

If you truly feel like your photos suck, have you considered getting education on how to make photos that don't suck? I'm not talking about school, I'm talking about things like Creative Live, or instructional DVD's created by photographers who do amazing work. We all suck at some point, but if you want to get better you need to work hard to do it.

Also, just throwing this out there, but these self portraits you did are great. My first self portrait session
Can you stop beating yourself up for just one second to see that your photos don't suck, because I think it's the most ridiculous thing when I see you making comments and entire threads alluding to you believing you have no talent when you clearly do.


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## WhaleDaughter (Jul 20, 2017)

nerwin said:


> SCraig said:
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People try to use that same crap argument for a multitude of things they don't consider to be in their narrow anal passage definition of art. I get that crap for photography and for the various fiber arts I engage in, especially knitting. They'll say it's not art because I'm not inventing anything new. My response is "oh, so you invented painting?" If I start with a sheep and end up with a beautiful lace shawl through the application of considerable skill and talent, that's art. If I'm moved by a scene and apply skill and talent to capture it in a way that conveys my emotional reaction, it's art whether I paint it or photograph it.

I just remember that during his lifetime, Van Gogh's work wasn't considered art. Look what happened to that idea.


"Rule 408: Time is not the boss of you"


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## bribrius (Jul 20, 2017)

hmm. i barely go online anymore. i avoid most social media.  i avoid in most instances gaining popularity in anything photograph related. i have done unpaid mostly and a very little paid work. i dont like people demanding things or expecting things of me. i do seem fairly established in my local community but more people know me than i know them.  i barely watch any tv, like in months. i hardly ever follow the news. If i care what someone thinks i will ask, most people dont normally just talk to me. How is my photography? no idea. Dont usually worry about it. others know much much more than i do.  Still looking for that photo i take that fills that void. I dropped out of the art clubs.  Dont care... i just shoot photos. i dont want more infuences.


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## jcdeboever (Jul 20, 2017)

I keep it simple.  I am not very good at photography. I am working to improve. I am working towards a style. If I have any questions, I can call a professional, I have one phone number. 

I am not on Facebook, twitter, Instagram. Just here and flickr. I use Flickr as a means to share family photo's with a link to an album. 

When I get the blues, I go out and help someone. When I get stressed, I read a book.


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## waday (Jul 20, 2017)

@bribrius , good to see you again!


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## bribrius (Jul 20, 2017)

waday said:


> @bribrius , good to see you again!


Thanks! Looks like i am shooting volunteer for nonprofits again now.  Still like doing my "own thing" mostly.


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## nerwin (Jul 20, 2017)

jcdeboever said:


> I keep it simple.  I am not very good at photography. I am working to improve. I am working towards a style. If I have any questions, I can call a professional, I have one phone number.
> 
> I am not on Facebook, twitter, Instagram. Just here and flickr. I use Flickr as a means to share family photo's with a link to an album.
> 
> When I get the blues, I go out and help someone. When I get stressed, I read a book.



I guess some people find their style right off the bat and others take time and I'm probably in that boat. I don't know what my style is yet, maybe someday I'll find it and I guess that's okay. It's probably why I'm constantly change lenses and setups because I'm trying to find that happy medium.


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## dennybeall (Jul 20, 2017)

What's "Instagram" and what in ---- is a "LIKE"?
And why would I care?


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## astroNikon (Jul 20, 2017)

dennybeall said:


> What's "Instagram" and what in ---- is a "LIKE"?
> And why would I care?


the same as this ...



 *<============*


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## table1349 (Jul 20, 2017)

dennybeall said:


> What's "Instagram" and what in ---- is a "LIKE"?
> And why would I care?


No like for you.


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## dennybeall (Jul 20, 2017)

I'll check my wallet and see if No Like made a difference.....


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## table1349 (Jul 20, 2017)

_*I'm not motivated by money or power or fame. In the end, it doesn't bring much happiness. The only thing that is driving me is self-satisfaction, self-validation. 
*_
William Clay Ford, Jr_*.*_


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## jaomul (Jul 21, 2017)

nerwin said:


> jcdeboever said:
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> > I keep it simple.  I am not very good at photography. I am working to improve. I am working towards a style. If I have any questions, I can call a professional, I have one phone number.
> ...



You may have a random style 

Or a


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## nerwin (Jul 21, 2017)

jaomul said:


> nerwin said:
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What's wrong with having a random style? I know it doesn't please Instagram people, but screw them. Haha.


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## jaomul (Jul 21, 2017)

nerwin said:


> jaomul said:
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A random style is great. I have a random style without the radm


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## fmw (Jul 22, 2017)

nerwin said:


> I know I'll probably get crap for this post, but listen. I needed to write this just get it off my chest. You don't have to reply.
> 
> For the last year or so, I've been stressing out over my photography and having constant negative thoughts about my work whether or not it's good enough. I don't even take photos for myself anymore, I'm pretty much taking photos for other people in hopes they might like it and when they don't, I feel like crap and depressed. I feel like giving up, and it's getting to the point it's starting affect not just my mental abilities but my health as well. Sometimes it feels like I'm going to have a stroke over it.
> 
> ...


 
Opinions are a dime a dozen.   I don't use social media except a couple of forums like this one.  You may want to try that.  Nothing wrong with sharing photos.  Why not do it here where the feedback, at least, will come from other photographers.  I used to make images for commercial customers.  I cared deeply what they thought of them because my business depended on it.  Now I make them for myself so what people think doesn't really matter.  I don't make them for other people.  I don't post an image because I want praise for it.  I post it because I think someone somewhere might like to see it.  If not, then that's OK too.


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## bribrius (Jul 27, 2017)

I almost bought a photo last week. Walked through little gallery here little sculptures some paintings on the walls some photos. Amongst everything looking around i see this one little photo smaller than everything else it seemed maybe 5x5? Had like no detail straight true bw dark just the outlines of a boat sail shore land moon of course could be seen. Like NO detail black black underexposed silhouette. But the composition of the frame. Was like perfectly, simply, PERFECTLY balanced. It was easy on the eyes. Nothing bright. Scary geometric almost just so balanced i found myself staring at it for a bit. Thing is. Unless it is a older photo or postcard or map poster something i NEVER think of buying a photo. But this one tiny little photo just perfect balanced conposition so simple yet so wonderful. Detail would have taken away from the shapes. Never can tell.


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## bribrius (Jul 27, 2017)

I am STILL thinking of buying it if its still there i guess.....


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## nerwin (Jul 27, 2017)

bribrius said:


> I am STILL thinking of buying it if its still there i guess.....



How much does it cost?


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## qmr55 (Jul 27, 2017)

I'd like to see it if you buy it!


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## nerwin (Jul 27, 2017)

Agreed. 

The description you gave us seems interesting, I want to see the photo now haha.


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## bribrius (Jul 29, 2017)

nerwin said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The description you gave us seems interesting, I want to see the photo now haha.


My point nerwin is you never can tell. There is something for everyone and i guarantee you have a photo somewhere someone would love


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