# I Need Some Advice On Rates....



## magkelly (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm very good at digital imaging restoration work and I'm starting to get some people locally asking me to fix their damaged family heirloom photos. One local photographer he hooked me up with a client recently and she was very happy with the job I did on a really badly damaged photo of her family. 

I know he charged that woman at least $100, but I did it in trade for some camera gear, that time. I'm happy. I bartered and I got some good stuff out of the deal but he has asked me to give him a ballpark figure for doing further work because he wants me to be available to do more for him, should the need arise. He says he's always getting people asking and I can see that because he's one of the more popular photographers in the area. He apparently either doesn't like doing it or doesn't have the time to do the really hard stuff though. 

I do, and I'm happy for the business but he of course wants his percentage of whatever work I'll do for him in future. I've looked online and the bare minimum for a job like the one I just did is about $100-150. I figure he's going to charge at least that for anything that's not a simple fix and that likely he's going to hand me the really hard jobs because he knows I can do them. 

My question is if he's going to be handing me jobs that he's getting paid $100-150 for what should I be asking for in terms of my own percentage? I don't want to turn him down because I could use the money, but I don't want to take a mere pittance for doing a really hard job either. I figure yeah, it's his client, but it's me doing the hard work and ultimately I should be making more than minimum wage here. 

He won't quote a fee or an hourly rate. He clearly expects me to decide what I'll charge, and that's fine, but I have a feeling that if I do suggest a split that's really commiserate with level of work I'll be doing he'd probably just balk. I can't be sure I'll be getting a huge amount of work from this guy, probably it will be decent, but I guess it could make me some extra $$$ for gear...

I do want to make some $$$ but I don't want to rip myself off either. 

What would you charge him? Do you think I should do it, or that maybe I should just back off, get some business cards printed and concentrate more on getting more business in the area myself? He's a nice guy, but I just have a feeling he wants me to do the really hard work on the cheap, you know? I'm not talking just getting rid of some dust or a crease here. The last project I did I was restoring noses, teeth, ears, and so forth. It wasn't easy and it took several hours.


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## Big Mike (Jun 24, 2010)

I'd suggest figuring out an hourly rate.  You don't want to charge $100 for a job that takes you 10 hours.

It's up to you to figure out what your time is worth.  Off the top of my head, I'd guessing something like $50-$60 per hour to start.


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 24, 2010)

Agree with mike but you need to let them know how many hours it will take you before you start.  I would do 15 minutes increment.  If you tell them 2 hours and you get it done in 1.5, subtract some money.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 24, 2010)

This is what I'm used to paying:

Light Restoration  $10.00
For lightly damaged originals with up to three minor repairs outside of major areas. (Major areas of repair are faces, hands, and areas of lost photographic emulsion which contains details essential to your photo.)

Medium Restoration  $16.00 
Includes ONE of the following: Restore one major area of repair, OR color restoration of intact photo, OR Add or Delete one person in a group photo, OR colorization of intact black and white photo, OR change background.

Medium Heavy Restoration  $21.75 
When neither medium or heavy would be the appropriate category due to additional work necessary on a medium photo. Light restoration plus additional service such as colorization or change background. 

Heavy Restoration/Art Treatment 1-2 Subjects  $27.50 
For Heavily damaged originals with more than 3 major areas of repair OR photo repair and colorization, OR add or delete more than one person in a group OR colorize and restore B/W photo.

Group Heavy Restoration/Art Treatment 3+ Subjects  $33.00 
For Heavily Damaged Groups with more than 5 Major Areas of Repair OR Heavy Photo Repair and Color Restoration, OR Add or Delete More than 3 persons.


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## KmH (Jun 24, 2010)

magkelly said:


> I do, and I'm happy for the business but he of course wants his percentage of whatever work I'll do for him in future. I've looked online and the bare minimum for a job like the one I just did is about $100-150. I figure he's going to charge at least that for anything that's not a simple fix and that likely he's going to hand me the really hard jobs because he knows I can do them.
> 
> My question is if he's going to be handing me jobs that he's getting paid $100-150 for what should I be asking for in terms of my own percentage?


If he is charging $100- $150 per image and you are doing all the work, you should be getting most of the $100 - $150.

If all he is doing is the intake, billing, and delivery, I would be expecting at least 75% of the fee he is charging.

The 25% he gets is almost totally gravy for him.


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## magkelly (Jun 25, 2010)

I've decided to branch out on my own. I'm not going to take projects from that guy after all. I'll probably make more money working on my own, but thanks for all the info. It was helpful.


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## kkphotos (Jun 27, 2010)

Out of curiosity, why no interest in taking referrals from him?  Are you that busy yourself that you're otherwise fully booked up?

(Working on my business plan, curious to know whether there are downsides I"m not considering to partnering with others)


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## Flash Harry (Jun 28, 2010)

Basically he's acting as your agent, a 60/40 in your favour for the work seems about right. H


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## Overread (Jun 28, 2010)

I'd be more inclined to think like KmH  with a 75%ish area take for yourself rather than a 60/40 split. The 60/40 is more saying that you are just doing a little more than him, when in fact you are doing all the work and add to that the fact that this is extra work for him and not his main form of income. He can afford to take a little less, since as KmH said its mostly just referral he is doing so its all profit with little to no input (the clients even come to him so he's not actively working for you to source work). Whilst for yourself it is your main earner.


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## magkelly (Jun 28, 2010)

He's not referring clients my way. He just wants me to do the work. He wants them to think he's the one at the computer. I wouldn't care so much about recognition if the pay was good, but it's clearly not going to be. He won't even talk his own rates with me. I can't even tell what to charge him because I actually don't know what he charges them. I'm supposed to decide, not knowing, I guess. I get the feeling if I ask for even 50% he'd just balk. Probably not worth it. I'd rather just go find more clients of my own. 



kkphotos said:


> Out of curiosity, why no interest in taking referrals from him?  Are you that busy yourself that you're otherwise fully booked up?
> 
> (Working on my business plan, curious to know whether there are downsides I"m not considering to partnering with others)


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## Josh66 (Jun 28, 2010)

magkelly said:


> He's not referring clients my way. He just wants me to do the work. He wants them to think he's the one at the computer. I wouldn't care so much about recognition if the pay was good, but it's clearly not going to be. He won't even talk his own rates with me. I can't even tell what to charge him because I actually don't know what he charges them. I'm supposed to decide, not knowing, I guess. I get the feeling if I ask for even 50% he'd just balk. Probably not worth it. I'd rather just go find more clients of my own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah - but 50% of what?

If he won't tell you what he is actually charging for your work, there's no way for you to know what to ask for - percentage-wise, that is.

You might say you want 50%, then he might agree and give you $XX.  How would you know if that was really 50%?

It sounds like he wants to low-ball you.  He won't tell you what he's charging, because he knows he would have to pay you more if he did.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jun 28, 2010)

magkelly said:


> He won't even talk his own rates with me. I can't even tell what to charge him because I actually don't know what he charges them. I'm supposed to decide, not knowing, I guess.



This is a common business practice. Never name your price, let the other person name theirs. This other person, you in this case, not knowing what they are doing (sorry) will tend to low ball. This is something you deal with in all kind of business situations.

From the car dealership that asks you what monthly payments you can afford to Sears Windows rep that only give you a monthly payment and never a total cost of the deal. It is all the same crap.

What this thread shows (sorry again) is that this person is a business person and you are not.

You need to turn the situation around. Ask him what he is willing to pay for your services?

And don't be afraid to laugh at him. He is obviously in need of you. You have the upper hand if you want it. And from the stuff you said, I think you might want to consider working with him. At least until you learn enough about business to steal his customers.

FYI, I paid a rep when I first went into commercial photography. Yes he got a nice percentage but I wouldn't have gotten those jobs otherwise. He made me more money than I paid him.

Food for thought.


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## magkelly (Jun 28, 2010)

Being cagey and mysterious doesn't mean you're a good business person. I've been in retail for years and for the record I'm excellent at running a business. I'm well used to that "quote me your best offer" bit. It's a very common practice, but I'm too smart to go there and low ball myself. I want to know what I am getting myself into. 

I'm working on it. I'm getting a quote or two shortly here, using a casual friend with some bad family pics just to see what he'd ask. I do want to compare his rates with what I've been told is common locally. If he won't tell me, fine, I'll just have a couple of people go in there and ask, shrug. 

My gut feeling though is that he just can't afford to pay me. I've also asked a few photography people here about him? Not a lot of positive comments, actually. They say he's a nice guy but the general consensus is that his business is really struggling. If that is true? No way am I going there unless it's on a cash only, paid in full on the date delivered basis with a decent % for me besides. 

I'm thinking I may just run an ad sometimes on the local CL, and grab some new business cards put them in the area photography stores on their local business cork boards and advertise my own rates. I have a design for them already made up with my own business info and a logo. 

I've used them before while I was at school mostly. I've gotten some good jobs that way. I may actually pick up some work elsewhere that way too. I think I'd rather be an independent actually. Not quite as much money probably unless I really hustle, but then I'd be dealing with half the BS too probably.

I tend to trust my gut though, and something about this guy is just a bit off. I can't explain that, but he just doesn't feel quite right to me, like someone I'd want to work a lot with.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 28, 2010)

magkelly said:


> He just wants me to do the work. ...I'm supposed to decide, not knowing, I guess.



That sounds right to me.

He needs a service.  You can choose to provide that service and set your price.  Then it's up to him if he wishes to use you.

It's nothing personal...  just business.

-Pete


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## magkelly (Jun 28, 2010)

I didn't say it was personal. He seems nice, but he also seems a bit flaky to me, and not too reliable in some ways. I don't want  go into it but the past work I did for him there was a "catch" to the situation. He's promised to resolve that issue, and I am hoping he will, but it should not have happened that way in the first place. It's a long story, but I wasn't too happy when I realized that what I'd worked for wasn't quite what I thought it was. 

If he resolves it, we'll see. 

But I am just not playing pricing games with this guy. I don't have that leeway with him. He's the type I will have to watch closely, I think just to cover my arse. I will find out what he charges and set a decent percentage accordingly. If he doesn't want to pay that, then fine, no harm done, but I won't bargain in the dark. That's just not good for ME business-wise. I'm the one who has to do the work. It's my time and my skills and I can't work for nothing though I am sure it would thrill him if I would agree to, obviously.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 28, 2010)

magkelly said:


> I will find out what he charges ...



I don't see how that's any of your concern.

Get what YOU need for doing the work.  If he can sell it for $10 more or $500 more, that's his business.


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## magkelly (Jun 29, 2010)

Okaaaay, that's a little harsh...

What he's charging is absolutely my concern if I am going to be doing most of his digital work for him. He runs a public photography business here. I don't think it's that unreasonable to check him out a bit, ask about his shop's reputation, and find out what his rates actually are. 

The last thing I want to do is take on any major work for someone who's not reliable. I'd only end up working and not getting paid and besides I've already indicated a questionable situation with him has occurred once. Going there is only common sense in this situation.



Christie Photo said:


> magkelly said:
> 
> 
> > I will find out what he charges ...
> ...


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## Christie Photo (Jun 29, 2010)

magkelly said:


> Okaaaay, that's a little harsh...
> 
> What he's charging is absolutely my concern if I am going to be doing most of his digital work for him. ...



Not harsh...  just big-boy stuff.  I truly get what you're saying, and I understand how you've come to feel the way you do.  You feel invested in the process.  But it's the same for me when I work for an agency.  I put my best effort into my work and feel that the designer is getting and keeping work due to my photography.  But really, I'm just a source for him.  If I try to charge base on what he charges, I'll be out the door and he'll easily find someone else.  Like I said...  it's just business.




magkelly said:


> The last thing I want to do is take on any major work for someone who's not reliable. I'd only end up working and not getting paid...



That's a whole separate issue, whether he marks up your work a lot or just a little.  If he can't pay his bills on time, change the terms of the sale.  I suggest net/now....  cash upon completion.

Good luck!

-Pete


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