# HELP! Bad Photo Shoot/Gig: How to deal with the aftermath



## shelle24

Hi!

I wanted to get some advice from a few people on how to deal with a person that's upset with the way the pictures turned out.

Background:

A good friend of mine at work asked me to take pictures at her son's 1st birthday party.  When I arrived, she asked me to help set up for the party, so I didn't have time to take any test shots to get the metering, etc right.  When I finally broke away, I started outside (to capture all her decorations leading into the party room), and by the time I got back into the room, people had started to arrive (they were about 15 minutes early).  She had just finished or was finishing up the decorations in the room and had me take pictures of a family group shot.  Because of the hectic environment of people come in early and trying to get all the set up done last minute, I immediately started following her 1 year old for pictures.  When I had asked, before the party started, what pictures she definitely wanted, she told me to make sure I follow her son and take candids and action shots of him.  Being my first indoor party, I spent most of my time trying to figure out the settings and following a child through more children and people trying to hold him, etc.  Also, the room was horribly painted with mustard colored walls, and dimly lit with incandescent yellow light.  No natural light was available.   So after everything was said and done, I got a lot of pictures (about 2000) however, the color wasn't great (yellow) and because I disabled the flash and upped the ISO level, some of the pictures are either blurry or "grainy".

After editting a few pictures as a preview, she seemed happy with it.  When she approached me later, she asked if I had gotten any more with her family and in-laws.  I had said that I definitely got her family since they were interacting with her son more, but as far as his, just the group shot because of their lack of interaction.  She seemed fine then too.  Later that day, it must have set in, but she approached me in a panic mode (not angry) about not having specific shots and the color of the photos.  I had edited most of the yellow out (which took me hours) and though not my best work, it wasn't bad.  She said that she assumed that I would take other pictures, especially the set up of the table set up, buffet table, etc.  I usually do actually do this, but because of the rush to finish the set up and then to take pictures as the party was starting, I just didn't have time.  

Long story, I'm sorry!  But now she wants ALL my uneditted pictures to go through one-by-one herself to see what's in there.  I'm afraid she's going to get more upset by seeing the uneditted "yellow" and dark photos and be overwhelmed by the amount of them.  At one point, I had continous shooting on, so there are a lot of duplicates or close to duplicates you can get.

She's a great friend, but I'm overwhelmed and stressed about this.  I feel so awful that I didn't perform at my top level and my work was a failure for this shoot.   It's turned me off of doing parties and just sticking with landscapes.  One of the things she kept saying was that she had told everyone that she had hired an actual photography but now she has to go back and ask everyone that had a camera that day to give her their pictures, which hurt.  I know I messed up, but to keep throwing salt in the wounds hurt.

Please help and advise!!

~Shelle


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## cgipson1

Flash! A situation like that almost demands it, for good color, and sharp images. I am assuming you primarily work so called "Natural Light", right? Sounds like you took on a job you weren't ready to do... Shooting in those kind of conditions require really fast lenses, and a body capable of low noise at high ISO. What gear did you shoot it with?

Post some images... maybe we can make some suggestions!

EDIT: I see a D3200 in your profile.... is that what you used? What lens? Why didn't you use flash? Even the pop-up may have been better than nothing!


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## hirejn

Did she pay you? Did you have a contract? If she paid you and you didn't have a contract, you can expect this. If she didn't pay you and you didn't promise anything, she shouldn't be complaining, but that doesn't mean she can't. Sounds like you didn't set expectations correctly and also it sounds like you should have more experience before you offer photographic services. You can't rest on the fact that someone is a friend or family member; you need to set expectations and sign a contract. If they're not paying you and they're good friends, at least set expectations. High ISO is not a solution for bad light. If the quality of light sucks, it will suck just as much on high ISO as low. You need to understand light and flash.

If she's asking to see every image, that means you didn't set expectations. My clients don't see every image. They see the ones I select and edit. They do not proof. I cull. They can accept or not accept the images I give them, but I don't pull out others unless it's just a few or they pay me. Everyone manages this differently. I don't give clients images unless they're finished. That's my standard.


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## amolitor

Tell her there's a LOT of images and you want to at least triage.

Then go through the lot:

- for near dupes, select the best of the bunch
- out of focus ones and blurry ones, dump all of them unless you REALLY think they capture some essence of something about motion
- do rough adjustments on what's left to make them all more or less readable to the amateur eye. bring levels up so you can see who's in it, etc.

Then block out some time to sit WITH her, and go through them. Use tags, labels, star ratings or whatever. If she needs a photo of Uncle Edward, then you'll want to work with her to pick out the best 3 photos of Edward. There's going to be a LOT of this personal stuff that she can't just tell you up front, she'll have to see 'em to know what she wants. She'll see something and say "Oh! We need that one!" and then you say "Why?" and she says "Well, we need one with Sally and her children together!" and then you can go through and find the best ones that have Sally and her children, not just the one she stumbled across.

Work with her side by side to triage the collection down to the photos she wants.

Then head off to your lonely artist's garret, and do your best with those. A terrible image with an important grouping of people is better than no image, often.


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## Rob99

2000? Of a birthday party? Damn...

Never give unedited photos, never.


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## Mully

Out of 2000 you should be able to salvage 75-100 images with some work....... I would edit them to the 100 best and work from there.  You might be able to create an action in PS that would get you close to a decent image and post process from there ......good luck and sorry this has happen but you will learn a lot.


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## kundalini

shelle24 said:


> .....Long story, I'm sorry! But now she wants ALL my uneditted pictures to go through one-by-one herself to see what's in there. .....


Long story cut short, the answer would be an emphatic *NO!*


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## shelle24

cgipson1 - I can definitely say that I wasn't ready for this and am regretting taking the gig.  I'm used to natural light and do a lot of outdoor shoots, especially engagement pictures and landscape shots.  She had seen some of my engagement photos and loved them and asked if I'd help out and take pictures for her party.  I had expressed to her that I wasn't used to indoor shooting and that it made me nervous, but she wanted to have me do it nevertheless. 

I just have the Nikon 3200 - hoping to get more gear soon.

When I had used the flash, the photo came out looking very harsh.  I upped the ISO and shutter speed to compensate, but bad news bears.  Thank you for your reply!


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## shelle24

hirejn - thank you for the feedback!  She didn't pay met, it was done out of a favor as a friend, but I definitely didn't set too much up prior.  I did explain to her about my lack of experience for indoor shooting, but she didn't seem to mind or seemed concerned.  Also, I usually set a time to sit down and get a check list of all the 'must have' pictures, but everytime I tried, she was too busy and not too worried about it.  That's why I was a little surprised when after it was all said and done, she demanded why I didn't take certain pictures.  I should have done a better job at meeting with her beforehand and getting a better picture of things, but also she didn't seem to be too concerned until after everything was said and done.  

I usually don't show every picture either.  I usually select a few of the better shots and edit them and put them into a collage (see attached) for people to view within a day before I really start to hunker down and do major editing.  But she's having a panic moment that no one else at the party capture certain moments and wants to see if I had gotten it.

Thank you for your feedback!


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## shelle24

First picture is what I've done in the past for family portraits (outside)...the 2nd picture is the collage I provided as a preview for my friend of the disastrous birthday party.


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## manaheim

I gotta say...

1. Freaking out THAT much over a 1 year old's birthday party pictures?  That's kinda insane... and I'm saying this as a parent.
2. Go through all your shots and trim out all the rejects, then use bridge to renumber them all so they all appear in series so she won't know any are missing.  Then sit down with her as Amolitor said.

Whether she's a bit mental over this or not, clearly she's your friend, so by and large I'd say do your best to comply without overly exposing yourself and making it worse.  Your instincts here are good, I think.  Too bad they weren't a bit better before you engaged in this (and thought to say no!), but a lesson learned... next time set expectations or simply don't do things like this for friends/family.


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## manaheim

shelle24 said:


> View attachment 41311



What the hell? Are THESE the pictures she's complaining about?

If so, I think you should tell you friend to logon here so we can give her a dose of reality. Those are FINE... bordering on quite decent. She's got nothing to complain about.

You know, this just adds strength to my #1 rule of pictures of people's kids... never take pictures for anyone that puts a giant bow on their kid's head.


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## shelle24

Amolitor and Manaheim,

I'm actually doing that right now since she wants the hard drive tomorrow morning.  Thanks for all the advice everyone!  I really appreciate it!!

~Shelle


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## shelle24

manaheim said:


> shelle24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 41311
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell? Are THESE the pictures she's complaining about?
> 
> If so, I think you should tell you friend to logon here so we can give her a dose of reality. Those are FINE... bordering on quite decent. She's got nothing to complain about.
> 
> You know, this just adds strength to my #1 rule of pictures of people's kids... never take pictures for anyone that puts a giant bow on their kid's head.
Click to expand...


Thank You!  Yes, those are the ones.  When she found out they were edited, she went into another spiral of panic.  She thought these weren't edited, which now I'll go back and try to make them a bit better - any suggestions?

Thanks!


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## cgipson1

OP, I have seen much worse! lol! You actually exceeded my expectations, based on my initial impression from your first post.


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## Michael79

manaheim said:


> shelle24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 41311
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell? Are THESE the pictures she's complaining about?
> 
> If so, I think you should tell you friend to logon here so we can give her a dose of reality. Those are FINE... bordering on quite decent. She's got nothing to complain about.
> 
> You know, this just adds strength to my #1 rule of pictures of people's kids... never take pictures for anyone that puts a giant bow on their kid's head.
Click to expand...

I agree theres not much too complain about.


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## runnah

I was expecting terrible photos but those are pretty damn good given the described situation.

She sounds like a high maintenance ***** honestly. Is she stay at home mom with a Pinterest account? If so dump some ****ty filters on there and that will make her happy.

But I 100% agree. Never ever never ever never ever ever show your unedited images to clients. Not even under threat of torture.


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## kundalini

My suggestion is to change your status to My Photos Are OK to Edit.  You're asking for help and many members here are wizards at post processing.


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## dbvirago

I think your 'friend' is getting inside your head. Turn it around. Ask her if it would be ok to use that collage to market your event photography to potential clients. Like others have said, I was expecting something horrible. These are fine.


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## shelle24

Kundalini - thanks!  I changed it to edit  

Everyone, I really, really do appreciate all the help, assurances, and some much needed boost of confidence.  She is really a lovely girl and a good friend.  She didn't say anything in a mean matter and didn't mean to hurt my feelings, but I just wanted verification that I wasn't going crazy.  As I said, it's not my best and I knew that as soon as I got home and started to look over them, but I didn't think they were as bad as she feels they are.  Dbvirago, you're right, I think she got in my head and I just lost all sense of my abilities.  I am still very new at this, doing portraits/people for just over a year and only doing about a total of 4-5 shoots, so I'm still learning!!  

You all are awesome and made me feel better.  I am going through and deleting some of the pictures that are really blurry or just salvageable and still going to give her the hard drive tomorrow since I already said I would.  However, definitely not doing that again.  It's way too stressful and I'm embarrassed for her to look over the 'bad' shots.  However, you live and you learn and thanks for everything!!

~Shelle


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## runnah

Maybe do something worse like breaking an expensive appliance. That way focus will shift off the photos.


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## Steve5D

Hmmm... A couple of things:

Were you paid? If so, then you  shouldn't have been helping her to set up as guests were arriving.  That's her problem, not yours. If you were paid, she wasn't your  friend, she was your client.

Second, the photos you've posted are fine. When you meet with her, log on to TPF and show her this thread.

Thirdly,  if she didn't pay you, I'd give her nothing further. She's clearly not happy  with what you've shown her, so it's profoundly unlikely she'll be all  too pleased with anything you _haven_'t shown her. If she _has  _paid you, then she needs to be able to show you in a contract where it  says you will provide her copies of the unedited images. If she can't do  that, tell her to piss up a rope.

A "friend" wouldn't be giving you this much grief over pictures which are actually pretty good...


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## manaheim

Yeah, I'm sort of trying to avoid giving personal "advice" here, but... if someone were giving me this much of a hard time over photos I'd be wondering a bit... and if they were giving me this much of a hard time over THESE photos I'd REALLY be wondering.


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## Steve5D

shelle24 said:


> I am going through and deleting some of the pictures that are really blurry or just salvageable and s*till going to give her the hard drive* tomorrow since I already said I would.



*DO NOT DO THAT.*

I cannot state that emphatically enough. Do not give her a hard drive with unedited pictures on it. Don't do it.

Do not.

Just don't.

Seriously. You've gotten some good advice here. I'm offering you some more. 

*TAKE IT...*


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## ewick

Maybe I got this wrong, but it seems you are not getting paid for this shoot, there was no contract and she is getting up tight about it. Don't ever shoot with out some type of written agreement (even and especially to friends and family). Like everyone else, I expected HORRIBLE photos but they are not too bad. If there was no contract you should just tell her you would be glad to sit down with her and go thru them (after you dump all the bad ones) but that your time is valuable and that you need to be compensated for your time and editing time.


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## runnah

manaheim said:


> Yeah, I'm sort of trying to avoid giving personal "advice" here, but... if someone were giving me this much of a hard time over photos I'd be wondering a bit... and if they were giving me this much of a hard time over THESE photos I'd REALLY be wondering.



I blame etsy and Pinterest.


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## kathyt

DO NOT let her see* ANY *unedited images! This is a golden rule in photography. That is like me walking around downtown Chicago naked. Professionals do not do that, and she is walking all over you. Stick up for yourself, and take control of this situation. Let _HER_ know what you are going to do from here on out, not the other way around. Friend or not, if you do not take the lead here this will happen again. I can assure you.


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## dbvirago

kathythorson said:


> That is like me walking around downtown Chicago naked.



I'm not sure that's a good comparison. Could you post some pictures?


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## shelle24

So, one thing I never really gave thought to was a contract - especially for family and friends.  99.99% of the time, my friends and family are just so grateful for anything, so I never really thought of writing a contract.  This is the one time that I wish I had something, but how do you get around doing it without it being awkward?  I think I would feel weird asking for them to sign something.  

None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money.  I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice.  I usually get paid in food - yum!  Yesterday, I actually did an engagement shoot and was paid with lunch and dinner.

This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.  

So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?

Thanks again everyone!!


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## AaronLLockhart

I had a family friend of ours pull this crap with some photographs I did of her newborn. I told her I would stop by for a quick shoot and give her 3-5 keepers for about 10 minutes worth of shoot time. I ended up taking 200 or so photographs. Once I edited the ones we gave her she tried to con my fiance into passing over to her all of the unedited ones. Sad part is, my fiance almost did it. I quickly told her no, that wasn't part of the agreement, and a photographer NEVER shows their unedited photographs.


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## cgipson1

shelle24 said:


> So, one thing I never really gave thought to was a contract - especially for family and friends.  99.99% of the time, my friends and family are just so grateful for anything, so I never really thought of writing a contract.  This is the one time that I wish I had something, but how do you get around doing it without it being awkward?  I think I would feel weird asking for them to sign something.
> 
> None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money.  I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice.  I usually get paid in food - yum!  Yesterday, I actually did an engagement shoot and was paid with lunch and dinner.
> 
> This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.
> 
> So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?
> 
> Thanks again everyone!!



HINT: Family and Friends are the WORST! Always do a contract! Even unpaid! Always go through and pick out the best images 10, 20, 100, whatever! Edit them to perfection, and deliver only those! NEVER (as stated in the thread several times) give out UN-Edited images to anyone! Never let them SEE the BAD ones!  lol!


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## runnah

Everyone sees my sig right?

'Nuff said


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## manaheim

runnah said:


> Everyone sees my sig right?
> 
> 'Nuff said



Don't start, you...


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## shelle24

:thumbup: Got it!!  Time to put on my big girl pants, haha! Hopefully it's just 5 awkward minutes of explaining why I won't give/show the unedited photos and then back to normal...hopefully.


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## mjhoward

shelle24 said:


> I never really thought of writing a contract.  This is the one time that I wish I had something, but how do you get around doing it without it being awkward?



Well from now on you can remember that it would be much less awkward than what you're faced with now!


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## runnah

manaheim said:


> Don't start, you...



Just saying.


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## Mully

There is an old expression that covers things like this " With friends like that you don't need enemies"


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## runnah

Mully said:


> There is an old expression that covers things like this " With friends like that you don't need enemies"



Also, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."


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## nycphotography

As a favor and now she's all cranky and pushy? I'd rethink if this is really the kind of person you want as a friend.  

Then when you come to your senses... just tell her to pound rocks.

The nerve of some people.


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## KrisztinaK

I have to piggyback on here and agree with all of the replies so far ... I would never show any unedited images either.  Not to a friend, and absolutely not to a client.

The only exception I've ever made to this rule is my sister with her baby, I occasionally her the best of the lot and she chooses what she wants me to edit for her, in addition of course to any I would have chosen.  Even this I don't do often.  I may have done this once or twice really.

I also feel that these are good images.  Certainly good enough, for a non-paid favor shoot.  

Personally, I think that if the photos were THAT important then she should have hired a photographer for the day.  On top of it all, it sounds very much like she was not cooperative the day of the party either and now she's looking for someone to blame.  Unfortunately for you, it's you.  

I'm sorry you have to deal with this.  It sucks when you do a favor for someone that does not appreciate it.


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## manaheim

runnah said:


> Mully said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an old expression that covers things like this " With friends like that you don't need enemies"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."
Click to expand...


An apple a day keeps the rabid aardvark in the cabinet?


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## nonamexx

Keep us updated on how it goes. 

Now, with respect to photographs taken in the function of family and friends, it's all about expectation. 

Since you carried around a big DSLR, you are expected to take expert pictures all the time. Next time people like family and friends want a favour, say up front that you're doing it non-professionally, explain that you don't do it professionally for family and friends and if they still want you to take pictures for free just carry a P & S, seriously and participate as a guest.

I don't know why friends (even pro photographers) are expected to do a pro job in a party where they are invited as a guest. If you are not invited specifically as a guest, then why bother at all. unless doing it professionally and getting paid for it?

I know it sounds awkward, but family and friends often expect work for free from their relatives who are professionals in various fields. It's difficult to turn it down and it's difficult to ask for a fee. I think the best way to deal with it is to state that "business is different, friendship/our relationship is different" unless they're really, really close family. 

I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.


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## nonamexx

> I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.



I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job. 

The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...

Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst. 

And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision. 

All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the results.

These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.


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## Greiver

runnah said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm sort of trying to avoid giving personal "advice" here, but... if someone were giving me this much of a hard time over photos I'd be wondering a bit... and if they were giving me this much of a hard time over THESE photos I'd REALLY be wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I blame etsy and Pinterest.
Click to expand...

I'd add in Instagram. Hate sites like those.


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## kathyt

cgipson1 said:


> shelle24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, one thing I never really gave thought to was a contract - especially for family and friends. 99.99% of the time, my friends and family are just so grateful for anything, so I never really thought of writing a contract. This is the one time that I wish I had something, but how do you get around doing it without it being awkward? I think I would feel weird asking for them to sign something.
> 
> None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money. I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice. I usually get paid in food - yum! Yesterday, I actually did an engagement shoot and was paid with lunch and dinner.
> 
> This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.
> 
> So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?
> 
> Thanks again everyone!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HINT: Family and Friends are the WORST! Always do a contract! Even unpaid! Always go through and pick out the best images 10, 20. 100, whatever! Edit them to perfection, and deliver only those! NEVER (as stated in the thread several times) give out UN-Edited images to anyone! Never let them SEE the BAD ones! lol!
Click to expand...


Yep! I even joke with my family and friends that I would make the Pope sign a contract. I don't care who they are, you both need expectations. I even think I am going to make my friends start signing two, because they are such a pain in the A**!


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## TATTRAT

harishankar said:


> I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job.
> 
> The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...
> 
> Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst.
> 
> And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision.
> 
> All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the pictures.
> 
> These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.
Click to expand...




She was pretty upfront with her concerns of the shoot, was not paid, and did it as a favor. It sounds like the friend nudged her into doing the gig and now, even though all the cards were laid on the table, the friend is being pissy when in fact she should be grateful. If the friend was really _that_ concerned, she would have listened to the OP and perhaps explored other options.

I think a pro bono gig is a given here and there. I think that is how most everyone starts out, unless I am WAY off base, and I may be. . .with the example photos provided, I am with Runnah, sounds like the friend is being overly bitchy and it's pretty clear that her expectations were never made clear, though the attempts were made by the OP.

I think the example shots were pretty good, considering the write up/build up, I was expecting horrible, low light, grainy, blurry, noisy pics. None of the photos exhibit those qualities.

OP, glad you are taking control of the situation. You laid your cards on the table and seem to have been honest and upfront about your concerns/limitations. If your friend can't respect that, then no more favors for her when it comes to photographs.


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## nonamexx

TATTRAT said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job.
> 
> The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...
> 
> Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst.
> 
> And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision.
> 
> All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the pictures.
> 
> These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was pretty upfront with her concerns of the shoot, was not paid, and did it as a favor. It sounds like the friend nudged her into doing the gig and now, even though all the cards were laid on the table, the friend is being pissy when in fact she should be grateful. If the friend was really _that_ concerned, she would have listened to the OP and perhaps explored other options.
> 
> I think a pro bono gig is a given here and there. I think that is how most everyone starts out, unless I am WAY off base, and I may be. . .with the example photos provided, I am with Runnah, sounds like the friend is being overly bitchy and it's pretty clear that her expectations were never made clear, though the attempts were made by the OP.
> 
> I think the example shots were pretty good, considering the write up/build up, I was expecting horrible, low light, grainy, blurry, noisy pics. None of the photos exhibit those qualities.
> 
> OP, glad you are taking control of the situation. You laid your cards on the table and seem to have been honest and upfront about your concerns/limitations. If your friend can't respect that, then no more favors for her when it comes to photographs.
Click to expand...


My experience has been that even if people know the limitations, their expectations are always higher than what you think it is.

The fact is, if you're a self-employed professional doing a favour to anybody and the favour involves your chosen profession, there is a likelihood that people will always think they're doing you a favour by giving you the work experience and illogically enough they will expect you to repay them with your best effort and results. Unless you're really well established in that line, granting favours are a bad idea. People especially family and friends tend to be ungrateful, even if you succeed...

If the favour doesn't involve your profession, then you have nothing to worry about!

I agree, the photos here are very good! Don't know what the client was complaining about.

The best thing about this is to take it as a learning experience and leave behind everything else. If you have a thick enough skin to withstand this, then you will probably find it a valuable part of your learning. However, many people are quite sensitive and that's why such scenarios are better avoided.


----------



## TATTRAT

harishankar said:


> TATTRAT said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job.
> 
> The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...
> 
> Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst.
> 
> And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision.
> 
> All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the pictures.
> 
> These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was pretty upfront with her concerns of the shoot, was not paid, and did it as a favor. It sounds like the friend nudged her into doing the gig and now, even though all the cards were laid on the table, the friend is being pissy when in fact she should be grateful. If the friend was really _that_ concerned, she would have listened to the OP and perhaps explored other options.
> 
> I think a pro bono gig is a given here and there. I think that is how most everyone starts out, unless I am WAY off base, and I may be. . .with the example photos provided, I am with Runnah, sounds like the friend is being overly bitchy and it's pretty clear that her expectations were never made clear, though the attempts were made by the OP.
> 
> I think the example shots were pretty good, considering the write up/build up, I was expecting horrible, low light, grainy, blurry, noisy pics. None of the photos exhibit those qualities.
> 
> OP, glad you are taking control of the situation. You laid your cards on the table and seem to have been honest and upfront about your concerns/limitations. If your friend can't respect that, then no more favors for her when it comes to photographs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My experience has been that even if people know the limitations, their expectations are always higher than what you think it is.
> 
> The fact is, if you're a self-employed professional doing a favour to anybody and the favour involves your chosen profession, there is a likelihood that people will always think they're doing you a favour by giving you the work experience and illogically enough they will expect you to repay them with your best effort and results. Unless you're really well established in that line, granting favours are a bad idea. People tend to be ungrateful, even if you succeed...
> 
> If the favour doesn't involve your profession, then you have nothing to worry about!
> 
> I agree, the photos here are very good! Don't know what the client was complaining about.
> 
> The best thing about this is to take it as a learning experience and leave behind everything else. If you have a thick enough skin to withstand this, then you will probably find it part of your learning. However, many people are quite sensitive.
Click to expand...



Yeah, I can agree with all that. It's a pretty ****ty situation that shouldn't be, it just seems the friend is really being the real "problem", lol.


----------



## nonamexx

The other thing to consider about this kind of scenario is that you expect friends and family to be your first line of "referrers" to build up a future clientele. Clients don't appear out of thin air in the initial stages! If they are not satisfied, there is a chance that you might not get clients from that source.

So if you want to do such work, don't undertake this kind of work as a favour. Undertake it as a paid job (even if for a token amount). Your mindset will be different, you will act like they're real clients with higher expectations and prepare accordingly, and they will probably treat you as you expect to be treated by a third party client. 

All this is easier said than done. That's why it's ten times harder.


----------



## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> The other thing to consider about this kind of scenario is that you expect friends and family to be your first line of "referrers" to build up a future clientele. Clients don't appear out of thin air in the initial stages! If they are not satisfied, there is a chance that you might not get clients from that source.
> 
> So if you want to do such work, don't undertake this kind of work as a favour. Undertake it as a paid job (even if for a token amount). Your mindset will be different, you will act like they're real clients with higher expectations and prepare accordingly, and they will probably treat you as you expect to be treated by a third party client.
> 
> All this is easier said than done. That's why it's ten times harder.



Friends and family should refer you regardless. Otherwise you have some sh*tty friends and family. If you shoot an event for completely free, there's really nothing for them to
not be satisfied about to not refer you. 

I highly doubt that your shooting style will change if it's a paid or unpaid gig(as will your mindset). If you are shooting with a purpose, your shooting with a purpose. Shouldn't matter about the money. I shot a birthday party for free, had a good time, enjoyed myself, and had around 2 dozen pictures that the mother loved. She loved them to the point where she insisted on paying me, but I declined.


----------



## Steve5D

shelle24 said:


> None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money. I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice.



"Practice" isn't a tangible asset that you can put in your pocket, or in your checking account. You're not being "paid"...



> This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.



You're not painted into a corner at all. If she doesn't like what you've given her, and bad-mouths you because of it (which is possible), then she wasn't a friend to begin with...



> So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?



You seem to have this unwavering need to show her all of your unedited images. You need to get over that, and you need to get over it fast. There is absolutely no compelling reason to show her the bad ones. None. Not a single reason. When I have clients who ask for "everything", I tell them "No problem. That'll be an additional $2,500.00". If someone is willing to pay that, I'll give them everything. 

Everything has a price, and that's the price for my unedited images.

Seriously, under no circumstances should you should her everything. Show her the best of what you have, and leave it at that. If she gets pissy, so be it; she wasn't a friend, anyway. If she's gracious and accepting, then she is.

My mantra is a simple one: "Only I get to see the bad ones".

It's served me well...


----------



## Derrel

shelle said:
			
		

> View attachment 41311



You know, I think your friend has some serious issues. I would not spend another minute trying to please this woman. I would say just go through the shots and dump any that are absolutely HORRIBLE, and then burn her a couple discs with ALL the images, and put them in a nice jewel case and say, "Here. Here are your photos."\\


The idea of never giving people unedited pics makes sense--for PAYING, genuine customers. This woman sounds like a royal pain in the posterior, and the quicker you just bail out of this mess, the better. Time to cut and run. Run far, run fast.


----------



## imagemaker46

My opinion, there is nothing wrong with the photos you posted, however if this is all you came up with out of 2000 then I can see a concern.  If you're friend doesn't appreciate the time you put in, she's not a friend, she's a leech.  Don't show her any photos that you don't like, if they aren't sharp, they should have all been deleted in the first cut, the second cut would get rid of all the ones that just don't look good for all the other reasons, even if you end up with a 100 good ones.  Only the best survive.

I would start learning how to shoot indoors, with a flash, especially if you end up with another situation like this one.  You clearly weren't ready to do this shoot.


----------



## EIngerson

Steve5D said:


> shelle24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money. I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Practice" isn't a tangible asset that you can put in your pocket, or in your checking account. You're not being "paid"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're not painted into a corner at all. If she doesn't like what you've given her, and bad-mouths you because of it (which is possible), then she wasn't a friend to begin with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You seem to have this unwavering need to show her all of your unedited images. You need to get over that, and you need to get over it fast. There is absolutely no compelling reason to show her the bad ones. None. Not a single reason. When I have clients who ask for "everything", I tell them "No problem. That'll be an additional $2,500.00". If someone is willing to pay that, I'll give them everything.
> 
> Everything has a price, and that's the price for my unedited images.
> 
> Seriously, under no circumstances should you should her everything. Show her the best of what you have, and leave it at that. If she gets pissy, so be it; she wasn't a friend, anyway. If she's gracious and accepting, then she is.
> 
> My mantra is a simple one: "Only I get to see the bad ones".
> 
> It's served me well...
Click to expand...


Couldn't say it better if I tried. I'd have a sit-down with my "friend" and set things straight. I hope it works out for you. Some great advice in here.


----------



## gsgary

shelle24 said:


> Amolitor and Manaheim,
> 
> I'm actually doing that right now since she wants the hard drive tomorrow morning.  Thanks for all the advice everyone!  I really appreciate it!!
> 
> ~Shelle



Don't give her it


----------



## gsgary

kathythorson said:


> DO NOT let her see ANY unedited images! This is a golden rule in photography. That is like me walking around downtown Chicago naked. Professionals do not do that, and she is walking all over you. Stick up for yourself, and take control of this situation. Let HER know what you are going to do from here on out, not the other way around. Friend or not, if you do not take the lead here this will happen again. I can assure you.



Nothing wrong with walking round naked


----------



## nonamexx

Ballistics said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing to consider about this kind of scenario is that you expect friends and family to be your first line of "referrers" to build up a future clientele. Clients don't appear out of thin air in the initial stages! If they are not satisfied, there is a chance that you might not get clients from that source.
> 
> So if you want to do such work, don't undertake this kind of work as a favour. Undertake it as a paid job (even if for a token amount). Your mindset will be different, you will act like they're real clients with higher expectations and prepare accordingly, and they will probably treat you as you expect to be treated by a third party client.
> 
> All this is easier said than done. That's why it's ten times harder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Friends and family should refer you regardless. Otherwise you have some sh*tty friends and family. If you shoot an event for completely free, there's really nothing for them to
> not be satisfied about to not refer you.
> 
> I highly doubt that your shooting style will change if it's a paid or unpaid gig(as will your mindset). If you are shooting with a purpose, your shooting with a purpose. Shouldn't matter about the money. I shot a birthday party for free, had a good time, enjoyed myself, and had around 2 dozen pictures that the mother loved. She loved them to the point where she insisted on paying me, but I declined.
Click to expand...


The biggest mistake people make is thinking that because you're giving something for free, others will take a more forgiving attitude - irrespective of quality. As seen here, that is how it should be in theory, but rarely in reality except in the case with close family and very close friends (as in really long-time). only those close to you will be understanding and forgiving. Even if you did a great job like in this instance, if they're not satisfied they will always complain that they might as well have hired somebody more "professional". Now that can hurt if you're in the same line.

As seen here, it isn't always the case with friends and relatives who don't know you on a daily basis. The word "friends and relatives" cover a wide circle. I've found out the hard way that friends and relatives who're supposed to refer you are the ones who're most careful about their "image" being on the line for referring you. Regardless, outside of immediate family circle, it's always best to maintain the professional attitude. Give them a concession but don't do it free. Maintain the professional attitude throughout. You will earn respect for that and people will perceive your work slightly differently. Otherwise you'll also leave room for people to think"Of course he/she did it for free, so that's why I didn't get the quality."

So what I said applies to not-so-close friends and relatives. If you're a upcoming professional, you should personally maintain the professionalism whether paid or not, but others don't see it that way. Getting payment is also a case of marketing to the outside world that your time and skills are valuable and worthy. And to charge for your services is what keeps your worth in others' eyes however subconsciously. 

And yes, undertaking work only if you're comfortable with the job is part of the professional attitude.

*The bottom line:* if you're really comfortable dealing with the friend and are confident that they know you enough and have tailored their expectation accordingly, then you can do it for free as a favour. it should come from the heart, certainly not as an obligation and definitely not simply as a way to practice and improve skills.

*Caveat 1:* None of this applies if you're doing it just for fun and not on a professional level. In that case, you have nothing to worry about.
*Caveat 2: *If you're already well established in the line and you have a solid reputation which can stand up regardless, you can take up such assignments for free for obliging friends.

My final advise would be to avoid doing any professional work for friends and relatives in any case to avoid these issues, but if you absolutely must, the above points may help.


----------



## bratkinson

As has been stated by many respondents in this thread...NEVER give up unedited shots! But since you are apparently already past the point off no return on handing them over, give her the RAW versions. Then explain that in RAW pictures, there is no 'adjustments' made by the internal camera software. I'm sure she would be stunned by the difference between RAW and JPG pictures.

A few other things come to mind for me. First and foremost is...2000 pictures???? Are you kidding? I just completed photographing a 9 'meeting' Missions Conference at church (meetings, meals, fun stuff, too) spread out over a 8 days and took about 1,300 pictures. My very first step was to cut that down to 400-ish by eliminating out of focus, bad exposure, subject(s) eyes closed, unflattering pictures, etc. I made a 2nd 'cull' and eliminated the too-similar shots, reduce the number of shots per subject(s), etc. THEN I started my editing. In the end, I knocked off another 100 or so, and produced a screen presentation of 125 pictures, with DVDs of all 300 or so that were edited keepers. 

The thought of editing 2000 pictures is mind boggleing. Shooting that many in, what, 2-3 hours? is WAAAYYYY overboard, in my estimation. If she -really- wants the whole shooting match, let her head spin for a while trying to get what she wants.

Lastly, your initial post noted that the pictures were yellowish. I'm going out on a limb and say you were probably using Auto White Balance, and the incandescent lights really screwed things up. I shot digital at church for several YEARS before I even had a CLUE about white balance. And that was complements of a WB disaster at my step daughters wedding a year ago. In the days before I understood white balance, I, too, wrestled for HOURS ON END trying to get the colors right...mostly too much yellows caused by AWB and incandescent lights. Under florescent lights, the colors are even more screwed up! Trying to adjust individual color sliders was killing me. I'd spend 10-15 minutes per picture trying to get the right colors. And getting color consistency between shots...not even in the ballpark!

Then I discovered white balance...the hard way. Spent some time reading about it, etc. Figured out how to set it in the camera, grey cards, etc. So now, depending on how (and if) I set my color balance in the camera (affects JPG outputs only), the pictures usually come out pretty good. When I process the RAW files, I set the WB in Lightroom with a simple click of the grey card and then 'synchronize' all shots in those lighting conditions with 2 clicks. If I forgot (or just didn't get) a grey card shot, I simply set the WB in Lightroom clicking on a reasonably white element in the picture such as a table cloth, a white shirt, a napkin, etc. Then make a little tweak of the WB sliders to get it 'right'.

So, even if your pictures were strictly JPGs, I think you should be able to adjust the WB somewhat in post processing. Not as much depth of color to 'play with' in JPGs as in RAW, but still enough to improve the results. And, depending on the post processing software you are using, it should provide some means of copying the WB settings from one picture to the next. That might be easy or hard to do, depending on the software.


----------



## jowensphoto

OP, come back and tell us what happened!


----------



## Steve5D

bratkinson said:


> But since you are apparently already past the point off no return on handing them over, give her the RAW versions.



The only time she'll move "past the point of no return" is when she actually hands over the images. Until that point, and only until that point, can she elect to not do so.

OP, you need to simply tell your friend that you're not going to allow her to see the images which are "bad". Period. If that upsets her, well, that's just too bad. It serves absolutely no purpose.

Ask yourself two questions

1 - Why do you feel you need to show her photos that you, yourself, decided were not good enough to give her?
2 - If she's unhappy with the photos you decided _were _good enough to show her, how happy do you think she's going to be with the photos you _didn't _want to show her?

You've been offered a _lot _of sound advice in this thread, and it would do you well to heed it...


----------



## Photographiend

Wow. I am sorry to hear you are going through this especially with the pics you posted here. To me they looked great all the way down to the Mustard colored walls. 

Maybe I misunderstood something in the explanation but it sounded like she was upset that you hadn't gotten more pictures of her husbands family? Possibly the issue here has more to do with how here husband responded to the photos than your friend? Being that it wasn't an issue until a later correspondence. I could see the husband flipping through them and saying "Why aren't there pictures of my family?"... one could only guess where that line of reasoning leads from there. 

I don't think anyone wants to sift through 2000 images no matter what they say. Find time to edit the ones worth showing and only show her the best of what you got. Maybe narrow it down to 50-100. Showing her more than you already did is all the added courtesy you need afford a friend. Don't show her anything that you aren't comfortable with. 

The Example that best sums it up for me is Chef Ramsey, he is who he is today because he never laxed his standards. Not because he never made any mistakes but because he had to good sense not to serve them when he did, even when the customers were belligerent and irritated for having waited so long. At the same time, he knows when he has done right and he stands behind what he knows is quality workmanship. 

This is your career path, and this was just one of many learning experiences that will mold you into the photographer you are becoming. Balancing the privileges of friendship with professionalism doesn't mean completely sacrificing your standards for the products you make available to a client.


----------



## jwbryson1

kathythorson said:


> That is like me walking around downtown Chicago naked.



Please direct me to the exact location and time/date.  I will be there with champagne, chocolate strawberries, and my camera (shooting in RAW, nonetheless...).


----------



## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> The biggest mistake people make is thinking that because you're giving something for free, others will take a more forgiving attitude - irrespective of quality. As seen here, that is how it should be in theory, but rarely in reality except in the case with close family and very close friends (as in really long-time). only those close to you will be understanding and forgiving. Even if you did a great job like in this instance, if they're not satisfied they will always complain that they might as well have hired somebody more "professional". Now that can hurt if you're in the same line.
> 
> As seen here, it isn't always the case with friends and relatives who don't know you on a daily basis. The word "friends and relatives" cover a wide circle. I've found out the hard way that friends and relatives who're supposed to refer you are the ones who're most careful about their "image" being on the line for referring you. Regardless, outside of immediate family circle, it's always best to maintain the professional attitude. Give them a concession but don't do it free. Maintain the professional attitude throughout. You will earn respect for that and people will perceive your work slightly differently. Otherwise you'll also leave room for people to think"Of course he/she did it for free, so that's why I didn't get the quality."
> 
> So what I said applies to not-so-close friends and relatives. If you're a upcoming professional, you should personally maintain the professionalism whether paid or not, but others don't see it that way. Getting payment is also a case of marketing to the outside world that your time and skills are valuable and worthy. And to charge for your services is what keeps your worth in others' eyes however subconsciously.
> 
> And yes, undertaking work only if you're comfortable with the job is part of the professional attitude.
> 
> *The bottom line:* if you're really comfortable dealing with the friend and are confident that they know you enough and have tailored their expectation accordingly, then you can do it for free as a favour. it should come from the heart, certainly not as an obligation and definitely not simply as a way to practice and improve skills.
> 
> *Caveat 1:* None of this applies if you're doing it just for fun and not on a professional level. In that case, you have nothing to worry about.
> *Caveat 2: *If you're already well established in the line and you have a solid reputation which can stand up regardless, you can take up such assignments for free for obliging friends.
> 
> My final advise would be to avoid doing any professional work for friends and relatives in any case to avoid these issues, but if you absolutely must, the above points may help.



The biggest mistake is giving a sh!t about the discontent someone feels that received a service for free. All of this is the long winded version of "treat every shoot, paid or not, as a high paying gig of your life. That's such over dramatic nonsense IMO.  

If the recipient complains to someone else about the OPs services, one of the first questions that will be asked is "did you get your money back". Only another nut job won't look at her and say " you got this for free and you're complaining". 

All of this would apply if the recipient actually paid a dime. But she didn't so there's nothing left for the OP to do. She took pretty good photos, the recipient didn't like them... oh well.


----------



## manaheim

jwbryson1 said:


> Please direct me to the exact location and time/date.  I will be there with champagne, chocolate strawberries, and my camera (shooting in RAW, nonetheless...).



Seconded!


----------



## nonamexx

Ballistics said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest mistake people make is thinking that because you're giving something for free, others will take a more forgiving attitude - irrespective of quality. As seen here, that is how it should be in theory, but rarely in reality except in the case with close family and very close friends (as in really long-time). only those close to you will be understanding and forgiving. Even if you did a great job like in this instance, if they're not satisfied they will always complain that they might as well have hired somebody more "professional". Now that can hurt if you're in the same line.
> 
> As seen here, it isn't always the case with friends and relatives who don't know you on a daily basis. The word "friends and relatives" cover a wide circle. I've found out the hard way that friends and relatives who're supposed to refer you are the ones who're most careful about their "image" being on the line for referring you. Regardless, outside of immediate family circle, it's always best to maintain the professional attitude. Give them a concession but don't do it free. Maintain the professional attitude throughout. You will earn respect for that and people will perceive your work slightly differently. Otherwise you'll also leave room for people to think"Of course he/she did it for free, so that's why I didn't get the quality."
> 
> So what I said applies to not-so-close friends and relatives. If you're a upcoming professional, you should personally maintain the professionalism whether paid or not, but others don't see it that way. Getting payment is also a case of marketing to the outside world that your time and skills are valuable and worthy. And to charge for your services is what keeps your worth in others' eyes however subconsciously.
> 
> And yes, undertaking work only if you're comfortable with the job is part of the professional attitude.
> 
> *The bottom line:* if you're really comfortable dealing with the friend and are confident that they know you enough and have tailored their expectation accordingly, then you can do it for free as a favour. it should come from the heart, certainly not as an obligation and definitely not simply as a way to practice and improve skills.
> 
> *Caveat 1:* None of this applies if you're doing it just for fun and not on a professional level. In that case, you have nothing to worry about.
> *Caveat 2: *If you're already well established in the line and you have a solid reputation which can stand up regardless, you can take up such assignments for free for obliging friends.
> 
> My final advise would be to avoid doing any professional work for friends and relatives in any case to avoid these issues, but if you absolutely must, the above points may help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest mistake is giving a sh!t about the discontent someone feels that received a service for free. All of this is the long winded version of "treat every shoot, paid or not, as a high paying gig of your life. That's such over dramatic nonsense IMO.
> 
> If the recipient complains to someone else about the OPs services, one of the first questions that will be asked is "did you get your money back". Only another nut job won't look at her and say " you got this for free and you're complaining".
> 
> All of this would apply if the recipient actually paid a dime. But she didn't so there's nothing left for the OP to do. She took pretty good photos, the recipient didn't like them... oh well.
Click to expand...


I don't think you got the point. This isn't about somebody's discontent, whether the service was free or otherwise. The OP is clearly upset about the reaction. So you cannot simply switch off your emotions to this kind of thing, because there is pride involved in your work.

This is about not *devaluing* your professional services by giving it free. The point is, I was talking about the professional aspect, not the quality of images. If your profession is taking photos, and your offer your professional services for free for "friends" you are devaluing yourself. Don't do it free. Go the full way and do it professionally and treat them like any other client. That means charging money, however nominal and having a formal contract. 50-50 isn't going to help. i.e. I will do a professional job but do it as a favour. If you're doing it as a favour, just do it for fun and ask them to hire another professional if they want best results.  People just dont get it... If unsatisfied, they won't understand that you did your best even if it wasn't paid. 

Besides, five years down the line, nobody will remember whether it was paid or free. But your work stands for ever.

If it's a hobby, I can understand that you wouldn't mind a lot what the other person thinks, but then if it's profession, that's a different story altogether.


----------



## gsgary

harishankar said:


> I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job.
> 
> The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...
> 
> Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst.
> 
> And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision.
> 
> All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the results.
> 
> These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.
Click to expand...


Brian Griffin (one of the top UK pro's) told me he shot these for free Road to 2012 because he did not want anyone else to shot them

some more of his stuff Brian Griffin | FORMAT Festival


----------



## nonamexx

gsgary said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think any professional in any field is lowering their own worth when they undertake such gratis work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to explain the above, because I feel that doing free work shows that you are desperate for work and experience and that you're not really get many paid jobs. It's a bad, bad message to send out in public, even if it is true -- whatever the profession in question. This is why many self-employed professionals start out their career as apprentices under a more experienced and established pro or a firm. Once you're well established in business, it doesn't hurt to undertake an occasional free job.
> 
> The difficulties of starting out in your chosen profession alone are numerous and the path is tough...
> 
> Now even if you do it as a favour to a friend/relative, the recipient of that favour might not see it in the same light if they know you're not yet fully established in your line - they will subconsciously or consciously feel* THEY're doing you a favour* by giving you the experience and in that regard friends and relatives are the worst.
> 
> And also, just because it was done for no payment, there is no guarantee that the recipient will be satisfied - as was the case here. *You never know the mindset of people who want to save money in the short term* because they don't usually think of the consequences of their decision.
> 
> All in all, I see it as a lose-lose situation. You've not had the satisfaction of doing a professional job with payment and they're not happy with the results.
> 
> These are some lessons I've learned in my profession, as a lawyer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brian Griffin (one of the top UK pro's) told me he shot these for free Road to 2012 because he did not want anyone else to shot them
> 
> some more of his stuff Brian Griffin | FORMAT Festival
Click to expand...


Did you read my posts fully? The point about already well established professionals?


----------



## Steve5D

shelle24 said:


> One of the things she kept saying was that she had told everyone that she had hired an actual photography



The question that needs to be asked and answered here is "Did she?"


----------



## nonamexx

The reasons I say that those starting out on any (self-employed) profession should not undertake free work except under the supervision or guidance of a mentor when needed:

1. You *need* the money. Earning money with your skills will boost your confidence besides paying the bills. If you are confident of undertaking a job on your own and doing your best by delivering the results, don't devalue yourself by doing it free. Your friends and relatives will start expecting you to do more free work because you did one.
2. If you can do it, but are not fully confident of delivering the expected results, but you absolutely want the experience then engage a mentor who will guide you for free, or get the client to pay for it or pay for his services yourself.
3. If you cannot undertake the job or it's way beyond your league, then don't do it.

If you undertake jobs which you can do well and can deliver a good product, as is the case here, don't do it free. Offer a concession, but never for free. Doing free work and still getting criticized for the results can be demoralizing, particularly if you've delivered good results. You are on a lose-lose situation.


----------



## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> If your profession is taking photos, and your offer your professional services for free for "friends" you are devaluing yourself.



Nonsense. Pro bono work is done all the time, by those working in many professions.

That said, I didn't get the impression that the OP is an established professional...


----------



## nonamexx

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your profession is taking photos, and your offer your professional services for free for "friends" you are devaluing yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. Pro bono work is done all the time, by those working in many professions.
> 
> That said, I didn't get the impression that the OP is an established professional...
Click to expand...


Pro bono work is fine for those who are already well established and earning enough to feed a family. I speak as somebody who's rendered free services for many people including friends and relatives. Many times, I've expected that I will get referrals as a result but it hasn't worked out. If it's just to satisfy your ego or your passion, that's fine, but it won't help you advance your career and it's rare to get the gratitude just because it's free...


----------



## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> I don't think you got the point. This isn't about somebody's discontent, whether the service was free or otherwise. The OP is clearly upset about the reaction. So you cannot simply switch off your emotions to this kind of thing, because there is pride involved in your work.
> 
> This is about not *devaluing* your professional services by giving it free. The point is, I was talking about the professional aspect, not the quality of images. If your profession is taking photos, and your offer your professional services for free for "friends" you are devaluing yourself. Don't do it free. Go the full way and do it professionally and treat them like any other client. That means charging money, however nominal and having a formal contract. 50-50 isn't going to help. i.e. I will do a professional job but do it as a favour. If you're doing it as a favour, just do it for fun and ask them to hire another professional if they want best results.  People just dont get it... If unsatisfied, they won't understand that you did your best even if it wasn't paid.
> 
> Besides, five years down the line, nobody will remember whether it was paid or free. But your work stands for ever.
> 
> If it's a hobby, I can understand that you wouldn't mind a lot what the other person thinks, but then if it's profession, that's a different story altogether.



You barely mention worth in 2 lines, but that's irrelevant. The OP already did the gig for free so let's move on.
Regardless, your point changes from post to post.  You're all over the place.



> Besides, five years down the line, nobody will remember whether it was paid or free. But your work stands for ever.



Again, more nonsense.  Why wouldn't someone remember that the photos were done for free? And 5 years? You should be miles better 
in 5 years, so the birthday party that you didn't do so well at shouldn't make a difference. You're blowing this whole thing out of proportion
and making up different points as you go along.


----------



## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your profession is taking photos, and your offer your professional services for free for "friends" you are devaluing yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. Pro bono work is done all the time, by those working in many professions.
> 
> That said, I didn't get the impression that the OP is an established professional...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pro bono work is fine for those who are already well established. I speak as somebody who's rendered free services for many people including friends and relatives. If it's just to satisfy your ego or your passion, that's fine, but it won't help you advance your career.
Click to expand...


Yeah, and you contradict yourself throughout your posts.


----------



## nonamexx

I mentioned that established professionals can afford to do free work because they already have a reputation and have a set value on their services. Individuals starting out don't have the luxury of being able to render free services. It's a matter of marketing your value early so that you set a benchmark.

Final word: You can do free work if you want. I've had bad experiences undertaking free work. Maybe photography is different as a profession, but in other professions involving more than one day's work or a longer time commitment, it is not worth it.

P.S. I didn't contradict myself. I said it was fine for well established professionals to undertake free work because they can afford to without losing their market value.


----------



## Ballistics

Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.


----------



## nonamexx

Ballistics said:


> Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.



Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally or competitively is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and learn from a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.

It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.
> 
> It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.
Click to expand...



I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.

I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services. The entire purpose of my photography business is to let the photography sustain itself. It's not a sink or swim situation where I must rely on my photographic income to survive. It's solely supplemental. I use it solely for the purpose of disposable income, and to upgrade my gear. 

Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer. 


That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting


----------



## kathyt

Greiver said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm sort of trying to avoid giving personal "advice" here, but... if someone were giving me this much of a hard time over photos I'd be wondering a bit... and if they were giving me this much of a hard time over THESE photos I'd REALLY be wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I blame etsy and Pinterest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd add in Instagram. Hate sites like those.
Click to expand...


Don't go hating on Esty now. It is a beautiful thing.


----------



## amolitor

Lots of professions have opportunities to do _pro bono _work as a way to build up experience. It's typically a fast way to get exposure to a wide array of jobs, whereas working paid gigs will tend to drop you into a specific niche quite quickly and thoroughly. A business tends to serve a specific market segment. Working for free, you serve anyone and everyone.


----------



## nonamexx

AaronLLockhart said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says who? I did work for free before charging, and that in no way has effected my now paying clients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.
> 
> It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.
> 
> I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services.
> 
> Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer.
> 
> 
> That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting
Click to expand...


I agree. But I am a legal professional and it's my only source of income. I cannot afford to do free work for clients yet because I haven't a steady source of income. Taking up court cases is a long term commitment and also involves costs as well, and I understand that it's not the same as a photography session. Still the point about establishing one's worth might be pertinent. I feel it's a very tough and delicate act  to establish a price on your skill and qualification and still remain competitive in a tough market.

P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.


----------



## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> I mentioned that established professionals can afford to do free work because they already have a reputation and have a set value on their services. Individuals starting out don't have the luxury of being able to render free services. It's a matter of marketing your value early so that you set a benchmark.



With regards to those just starting out, what "value" is there to market if someone's never shot a paying gig before?



> Final word: You can do free work if you want. I've had bad experiences undertaking free work. Maybe photography is different as a profession, but in other professions involving more than one day's work or a longer time commitment, it is not worth it.



Pro bono lawyers, last time I checked, rarely (if ever) get things wrapped up in a day...


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> AaronLLockhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that's your experience. I have a different philosophy in life. Maybe you're rich enough to be able to afford doing free work when starting out. I cannot. Charging nominally is one thing, but doing it free?? I would rather wait for opportunities for paid work and understudy a mentor in the meantime than take up free work on my own.
> 
> It's all a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe we can stop now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ballistics is just offering a viewpoint on the other side of the spectrum. Fortunately, I'm also on the same side as Ballistics.
> 
> I have a primary income profession, in which I make my living from. I have a child at home who is not in need, and his mother (my wife) is a stay-at-home mom. Needless to say, we're not hurting. When I first got into photography, I did TONS of work for free. It has not had any effect on my clientele now either, who now pay for my services.
> 
> Every now and then I will cut a tremendous break for someone I know that doesn't have the income level to support an expensive photographer.
> 
> 
> That's not to say that you can afford to do this, and that you charging for every shoot is wrong, or incorrect on any level. If that's what you have to do to generate income, then by all means, you have my 100% support in doing that. However, please remember that not all of us are in the same pair of shoes. Happy shooting
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree. But I am a legal professional and it's my only source of income. I cannot afford to do free work for clients yet because I haven't a steady source of income. Taking up court cases is a long term commitment and also involves costs as well, and I understand that it's not the same as a photography session. Still the point about establishing one's worth might be pertinent. I feel it's a very tough and delicate act  to establish a price on your skill and qualification and still remain competitive in a tough market.
Click to expand...



Nah, it's actually quite different (in my case anyway). I don't set a specific set of pricing for anyone to get involved and read. Most of the time, my prices fluctuate within $20-50 depending on the client's budget. The great thing about photography, is that the last client doesn't know how much you're going to charge the next client, and the next client doesn't know what you charged the last one. Even if your prices are more expensive than they'd like to see, if they feel like you will take care of them, they will still pay it. If they absolutely cannot afford it, they will be very quick to say so, I promise.


----------



## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.



First, who said the woman who "hired" the OP was well off?

Second, why is someone who's poor "deserving" of anything?


----------



## nonamexx

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned that established professionals can afford to do free work because they already have a reputation and have a set value on their services. Individuals starting out don't have the luxury of being able to render free services. It's a matter of marketing your value early so that you set a benchmark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to those just starting out, what "value" is there to market if someone's never shot a paying gig before?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Final word: You can do free work if you want. I've had bad experiences undertaking free work. Maybe photography is different as a profession, but in other professions involving more than one day's work or a longer time commitment, it is not worth it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pro bono lawyers, last time I checked, rarely (if ever) get things wrapped up in a day...
Click to expand...


I live in a different country and I don't know the American legal system.

I think the competitive dynamics are different in any case. 

About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.


----------



## nonamexx

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I am not against free work for really deserving people, like poor folk who cannot absolutely afford it. But not for friends or relatives who are well off and can well afford a qualified professional but feel entitled to free work from you just because you're related to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, who said the woman who "hired" the OP was well off?
> 
> Second, why is someone who's poor "deserving" of anything?
Click to expand...


No, I was speaking generally.

As for poor people being deserving, it's a whole different debate altogether and I'm not going down that road. All I'm saying is that I won't charge for poor people who are in desperate need of help.


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.



Negative, this is the same reason so many small time retail chains that try to compete with large companies like Wal-Mart and Best Buy don't make it. You have to stay competitive within reason, you have to know the costs of operating your own business, and you have to know what the fair market is for your skillset. These guys spend a TON of money on "WOW factor" to attempt to make their business look like it's this multi-million dollar chain. When really, they can't afford that kind of expense. 

I'm not going to pay $10,000 for a lawyer that has only been practicing for 2 years. However, I would pay that to one who has been practicing for 30 years, and has won numerous cases.

You charge within your means. You don't dictate how much you're worth. The consumer can see right through that.


----------



## nonamexx

AaronLLockhart said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Negative, this is the same reason so many small time retail chains that try to compete with large companies like Wal-Mart and Best Buy don't make it. You have to stay competitive within reason, you have to know the costs of operating your own business, and you have to know what the fair market is for your skillset. These guys spend a TON of money on "WOW factor" to attempt to make their business look like it's this multi-million dollar chain. When really, they can't afford that kind of expense.
> 
> I'm not going to pay $10,000 for a lawyer that has only been practicing for 2 years. However, I would pay that to one who has been practicing for 30 years, and has won numerous cases.
> 
> You charge within your means. You don't dictate how much you're worth. The consumer can see right through that.
Click to expand...


I already mentioned the need to be competitive in pricing and already stated that it is a delicate balance. Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it? You think I am a fool to charge heavily beyond my worth and still believe that I'll get clients? Setting the benchmark was about quality of work which will then help you build worth.

The whole debate was about charging vs not charging and not the price. You need to establish a value on your services, but do it realistically. Then with experience you can re-evaluate.

I don't know why I am being singled out for this treatment. I have a philosophy and try to live by it. I will stand by my philosophy.


----------



## amolitor

harishankar said:


> Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it?



It's an internet forum, that's how these things work  Enfuriating, innit?


----------



## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.



Okay.

How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?

When I started shooting concerts, should I have set my "benchmark" to match that of a Neal Preston or a Henry Diltz? I guess I could've, although I had absolutely no point of reference for it. I could've set my benchmark much lower, but the reality is that I had no point of reference for _that_, either.

You can value yourself and your work, and that's perfectly fine. But that value may not be "real". What's "real" isn't what someone is _able _to pay, it's what they're _willing _to pay.

If I have, say, a 1959 Gibson Les Paul, I can _say _that its value is $200,000.00, and there would be more than a few people who would agree with that statement. But if I don't get someone to actually give me money for it, it's just another guitar...


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.





harishankar said:


> I already mentioned the need to be competitive in pricing and already stated that it is a delicate balance. Do you have to pick on every word I state in isolation and draw new meaning from it?



I didn't pick a single word. I picked an entire sentence. Listen man, I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you. Simply letting you know that your "Kick off with guns blazing" method rarely works in successful business. That's all.


----------



## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> As for poor people being deserving, it's a whole different debate altogether and I'm not going down that road. All I'm saying is that I won't charge for poor people who are in desperate need of help.



That's one Helluva' debate technique: "I'm going to introduce an idea into the conversation but, if anyone asks me about it, I'll refuse to talk about it".

How silly...


----------



## AaronLLockhart

Steve5D said:


> What's "real" isn't what someone is _able _to pay, it's what they're _willing _to pay.



Can AH get AH A-Men?!?!?! (In my best Southern Baptist Preacher voice.)


----------



## amolitor

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for poor people being deserving, it's a whole different debate altogether and I'm not going down that road. All I'm saying is that I won't charge for poor people who are in desperate need of help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one Helluva' debate technique: "I'm going to introduce an idea into the conversation but, if anyone asks me about it, I'll refuse to talk about it".
> 
> How silly...
Click to expand...


He didn't "introduce it into debate". It was a side remark, clearly separated from the thrust of what he was saying.

You, however, appear to be trying to turn this into a political debate.


----------



## nonamexx

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?
Click to expand...


Simple. You don't work in isolation. This is where professional colleagues can help. Especially somebody senior to you who can mentor and help out. 

By the way, I do have a colleague who is my senior by experience (though junior in age), and we do work together. I am not yet at the stage where I can branch out on my own.

I'm really confused. Does everybody work in a vaccuum?? If you have no idea what to charge for what service when starting out, you need to interface with experienced members of your profession.


----------



## ronlane

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?
> 
> When I started shooting concerts, should I have set my "benchmark" to match that of a Neal Preston or a Henry Diltz? I guess I could've, although I had absolutely no point of reference for it. I could've set my benchmark much lower, but the reality is that I had no point of reference for _that_, either.
> 
> You can value yourself and your work, and that's perfectly fine. But that value may not be "real". What's "real" isn't what someone is _able _to pay, it's what they're _willing _to pay.
> 
> If I have, say, a 1959 Gibson Les Paul, I can _say _that its value is $200,000.00, and there would be more than a few people who would agree with that statement. But if I don't get someone to actually give me money for it, it's just another guitar...
Click to expand...


If you have a '59 LP, I'm sure someone will be willing to pay you $200K for it. 

I agree with what you are saying Steve, it's what someone is willing to pay


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Simple. You don't work in isolation. This is where professional colleagues can help. Especially somebody senior to you who can mentor and help out.
> 
> By the way, I do have a colleague who is my senior by experience (though junior in age), and we do work together. I am not yet at the stage where I can branch out on my own.
Click to expand...


That method only works in an apprenticeship environment such as you're proposing. Then, you aren't charging fair market for your skills and experiences. You're charging them for your mentor and partner's skillset and experience. These are two separate conversations to be had.


----------



## amolitor

What's weird here is that the loudest voices arguing with one another.. all seem to be in agreement on the essentials.

I honestly cannot tell what the hell the argument is even ABOUT at this point. It seems to be entirely parsing isolated phrases and having pretend fights about what they mean.


----------



## nonamexx

It doesn't even have to be apprenticeship. You can still take the advise of your fellow professionals without necessarily being their apprentice.


----------



## nonamexx

amolitor said:


> What's weird here is that the loudest voices arguing with one another.. all seem to be in agreement on the essentials.
> 
> I honestly cannot tell what the hell the argument is even ABOUT at this point. It seems to be entirely parsing isolated phrases and having pretend fights about what they mean.



LOL, I lost track of this debate long ago.


----------



## jake337

shelle24 said:


> So, one thing I never really gave thought to was a contract - especially for family and friends.  99.99% of the time, my friends and family are just so grateful for anything, so I never really thought of writing a contract.  This is the one time that I wish I had something, but how do you get around doing it without it being awkward?  I think I would feel weird asking for them to sign something.
> 
> None of my photoshoots are paid, at least by money.  I always tell them that we're both doing each other a favor because they get their prints and I get some practice.  I usually get paid in food - yum!  Yesterday, I actually did an engagement shoot and was paid with lunch and dinner.
> 
> This is the first time that I've been pressed into a corner.
> 
> So instead of handing over the hard drive, I should ask her to sit down with me this weekend and we both can go through the hard drive together?
> 
> Thanks again everyone!!




If his person is actually your friend they would not be pressing you into a corner. 


They should be happy they saved hundreds , if not thousands, of dollars.....


----------



## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> It doesn't even have to be apprenticeship. You can still take the advise of your fellow professionals without necessarily being their apprentice.



Example:

There is this car mechanic that is "The best mechanic shop in town." This car mechanic has now partnered in business with you,  a newcomer to the automotive scene, and you are now working together in this shop. The consumer still isn't paying for your knowledge, your skills, or your experiences, they are paying for his. With that, his reputation extends out to you, that _your work will meet and exceed his standards._ If you were to branch off without him, and do your own thing, I highly doubt you could get away with charging the same thing that he charges, and maintain your clientele. You simply don't have the reputation to precede you.


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## Steve5D

amolitor said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for poor people being deserving, it's a whole different debate altogether and I'm not going down that road. All I'm saying is that I won't charge for poor people who are in desperate need of help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one Helluva' debate technique: "I'm going to introduce an idea into the conversation but, if anyone asks me about it, I'll refuse to talk about it".
> 
> How silly...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He didn't "introduce it into debate". It was a side remark, clearly separated from the thrust of what he was saying.
> 
> You, however, appear to be trying to turn this into a political debate.
Click to expand...


He used it to make a point; one which is open to challenge.

That's how the internet works.

Enfuriatin', innit?


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## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> I'm really confused...



You've made that rather clear...


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## nonamexx

AaronLLockhart said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't even have to be apprenticeship. You can still take the advise of your fellow professionals without necessarily being their apprentice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Example:
> 
> There is this car mechanic that is "The best mechanic shop in town." This car mechanic has now partnered in business with you,  a newcomer to the automotive scene, and you are now working together in this shop. The consumer still isn't paying for your knowledge, your skills, or your experiences, they are paying for his. With that, his reputation extends out to you, that _your work will meet and exceed his standards._ If you were to branch off without him, and do your own thing, I highly doubt you could get away with charging the same thing that he charges, and maintain your clientele. You simply don't have the reputation to precede you.
Click to expand...


No, I meant you gain his experience and also ask how much he used to charge when he was inexperienced and starting out. Then do the math for the inflation or present market. By asking more people, you get a fair idea of what fees are the norm when you start out in a profession. Normally it's flexible and as you gain experience, you keep re-evaluating.


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## Steve5D

ronlane said:


> If you have a '59 LP, I'm sure someone will be willing to pay you $200K for it.



I watched a dealer sell one at the Arlington Guitar Show a few years back for $220,000.00. 

These days, though, they're not fetching _near _that much. People still _ask _that much, but they're not selling...


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## nonamexx

Steve5D said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really confused...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've made that rather clear...
Click to expand...


No. I am not. I have made myself clear and people are still having doubts about it forcing me to get confused about where the debate is heading 

P.S. I don't know whether you're teasing me or trying to attack me, but either way, I stick to what I've said before. Whenever I make a plain statement, it's being interpreted in weird ways and drawing me into further conversation. 

I *truly* have no idea what you're up to except to score a point against me.


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## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> AaronLLockhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't even have to be apprenticeship. You can still take the advise of your fellow professionals without necessarily being their apprentice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Example:
> 
> There is this car mechanic that is "The best mechanic shop in town." This car mechanic has now partnered in business with you,  a newcomer to the automotive scene, and you are now working together in this shop. The consumer still isn't paying for your knowledge, your skills, or your experiences, they are paying for his. With that, his reputation extends out to you, that _your work will meet and exceed his standards._ If you were to branch off without him, and do your own thing, I highly doubt you could get away with charging the same thing that he charges, and maintain your clientele. You simply don't have the reputation to precede you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I meant you gain his experience and also ask how much he used to charge when he was inexperienced and starting out. Then do the math for the inflation or present market. By asking more people, you get a fair idea of what fees are the norm when you start out in a profession. Normally it's flexible and as you gain experience, you keep re-evaluating.
Click to expand...


Not as simple as you made it out to be...now is it?


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## AaronLLockhart

harishankar said:


> AaronLLockhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't even have to be apprenticeship. You can still take the advise of your fellow professionals without necessarily being their apprentice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Example:
> 
> There is this car mechanic that is "The best mechanic shop in town." This car mechanic has now partnered in business with you,  a newcomer to the automotive scene, and you are now working together in this shop. The consumer still isn't paying for your knowledge, your skills, or your experiences, they are paying for his. With that, his reputation extends out to you, that _your work will meet and exceed his standards._ If you were to branch off without him, and do your own thing, I highly doubt you could get away with charging the same thing that he charges, and maintain your clientele. You simply don't have the reputation to precede you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I meant you gain his experience and also ask how much he used to charge when he was inexperienced and starting out. Then do the math for the inflation or present market. By asking more people, you get a fair idea of what fees are the norm when you start out in a profession. Normally it's flexible and as you gain experience, you keep re-evaluating.
Click to expand...


No contest there. However, I hope his overhead was the same amount yours is, otherwise you're in a world of hurt.


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## nonamexx

Ballistics said:


> Not as simple as you made it out to be...now is it?



It is simple enough to me. I guess for the intellectually challenged it's not.

I think *now* this is starting to get silly. It's not *THAT* hard to figure out the market value for your services even when starting out. People are making it sound like it's more than rocket-science.


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## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not as simple as you made it out to be...now is it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is simple enough to me. I guess for the intellectually challenged it's not.
Click to expand...


What are you 14? Can't have a debate without resorting to petty insults? How pathetic.


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## Photographiend

harishankar - I am just starting out myself and while my efforts come fueled by the audacious fantasy that I will be a fantastic photographer one day, I never in my wildest dreams could imagine charging someone for my work. 

We are not well off. My husband provides through his work but is grossly underpaid. Would it be nice to find a way to supplement the income? Yeah. But I am a "photographer" (term loosely applied meaning person who owns a camera and likes to take pictures) still in their infancy and I know that. 

As a Legal worker you should have a good understanding of "Liability". Once you charge for your work, you become Liable. You are expected to perform a service and if/when it does not meet your clients expectations you can be taken to court. This is a common thing here in the USA and the key factor behind my idea that I would rather NOT EVER charge a dime for photography. I want to enjoy what I am doing, I want offer my service to friends and family when and where I can so I can learn and grow and hopefully become great. Should I ever make a name for myself I have a whole business model in my mind that wouldn't earn me a dime because for me as soon as I start associating a monetary value with my work it cheapens it for me. It adds a whole new level of stress that I personally would rather not deal with. Would be like asking your spouse to start paying you based off your daily performance. 

"You were a ***** today so I am not paying you." 

or "That was an amazing dinner. Here is $5." 

It is my understanding that people who get into this line of work do so for the love of photography. That is where is builds from. The love of money won't help you become a better photographer. IMO.


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## pixmedic

I think the OP has gotten plenty of good advice on how to handle the friend and the pictures.  the thread has ventured pretty close to the end of its usefulness.


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## Ballistics

harishankar said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> About value to market: I think you have to set a benchmark early and live up to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> How would someone do that, especially if they have no real experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Simple. You don't work in isolation. This is where professional colleagues can help. Especially somebody senior to you who can mentor and help out.
> 
> By the way, I do have a colleague who is my senior by experience (though junior in age), and we do work together. I am not yet at the stage where I can branch out on my own.
> 
> I'm really confused. Does everybody work in a vaccuum?? If you have no idea what to charge for what service when starting out, you need to interface with experienced members of your profession.
Click to expand...


You are all over the place, you contradict yourself, and you change points constantly. 

You talk about something of this effect being "simple" and then ask if everyone lives in a vacuum. In a perfect world, all of this would be "simple",
but you're comparing yourself, who works in a firm with colleagues, to a freelancing photographer who does not. But... it's SO simple!


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## nonamexx

Ballistics said:


> harishankar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not as simple as you made it out to be...now is it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is simple enough to me. I guess for the intellectually challenged it's not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What are you 14? Can't have a debate without resorting to petty insults? How pathetic.
Click to expand...


You did the petty insults first. Go back and read your posts on me first.


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## amolitor

Steve5D said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's one Helluva' debate technique: "I'm going to introduce an idea into the conversation but, if anyone asks me about it, I'll refuse to talk about it".
> 
> How silly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't "introduce it into debate". It was a side remark, clearly separated from the thrust of what he was saying.
> 
> You, however, appear to be trying to turn this into a political debate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He used it to make a point; one which is open to challenge.
> 
> That's how the internet works.
> 
> Enfuriatin', innit?
Click to expand...


This is completely false. His position is, in fact, OPPOSED to free work as a general thing. He mentioned the poor people in a postscript, as an aside. It was a remark that is in fact 180 degrees opposed to the thrust of his argument, and it seems frankly to serve no purpose.

You saw the 'deserving poor' dog-whistle phrase and tried to start a polictical fight. Hari, to his credit, failed to take you up on it.


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## Steve5D

harishankar said:


> I *truly* have no idea what you're up to except to score a point against me.



I've no need to score points...


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## tirediron

Okay, it took longer than I thought, but this has finally devolved into the argument I anticipated about five pages back.  Everyone grab a camera and go outside and take a picture!


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