# Love Me Some Hate Mail



## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

Sorry fellow forum members for my MIA status as of late, but I have been coming on and viewing everyone's posts from time to time during this very busy time in my life. 
I wanted to share with you what I see that seems to be getting to be a more common thing, hate mail from local photographers. I think a member here posted something similar not too long ago. 

I posted an ad on Craigslist looking for a helping hand on my next wedding coming up. I said the job was not for pay, but I would cover all transportation and the help could use this as a learning experience and an opportunity to add more to their portfolio. Many of you are probably thinking, oh Lord. But from my own experience, I would have loved to help at a wedding and get a little more perspective on things even if I wasn't getting paid. Anyway, if someone doesn't like it they don't have to reply right? 

Wrong. They do reply. I had quite a few bites, (all pretty weird and much older men, kind of skeeved me out) but I had two photographers actually send me hate mail lol. In both cases they had obviously viewed my site and looked into my pricing because they attacked me for being "cheap" and said I needed to learn how to price and that I was unprofessional, and to leave the wedding work to them lmao. 

These emails also contained a good deal of profanity thrown through out. Obviously these people are much more "professional" than me. 

I took my posting down and thanked the idiots for reminding me why I prefer to work alone. What hateful beings, they are so worried I will steal business from them that they go on to threaten me. One called me a b**** it's quite exciting lol. I guess this means people see me as a force to be reckoned with. 

Has anyone else received some nasty emails? 

This has given me yet another reason why I should stay off Craigslist. I will now start looking for an assistant the old fashion way and   will continue to rock the weddings solo until I can find a good fit (whom I will pay)


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## e.rose (Jul 3, 2014)

Girl...

There is nothing wrong with what you posted. It's certainly a "get what you pay for" situation, so if you're not paying your second shooter, you may not get as high as quality as you would with an experienced second shooter, worth their pay... But that being said, I second shot a couple weddings for free for experience. Anyone else looking for the same would probably love to shoot with you.

As far as everything else goes... f**k 'em. I wouldn't have even responded. 

I would have kept my listing up, deleted any hate mail, and kept on trucking.

I mean I would have DEFINITELY posted about it, for entertainment's sake, hahaha, but not responded to them.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

Thank you! I didn't realize I had crossed some line by asking for a second with experience as pay. The listing wasn't even really geared towards all shooting, just needing a hand with getting groups together (both weddings I've recently done had extremely drunk groomsman to deal with) and a reflector/flash holder when needed, allowing them to shoot what they want when I don't need them immediately. 

maybe I should have kept it up, but the weirdos I was getting put me off pretty fast as well lol.


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2014)

Craig's list is very much a case of putting up an ad and then sifting through a lot of junk to get what you're after. 

Also I agree with Erose - just block the hate-senders/report them if Craig'slist has such a feature and continue on how you are. Ok so you're cheaper than some; so long as your business model is sensibly profitable and you're making a good income from it then there isn't any "crime" you've made. You're just servicing a cheaper section of the market compared to others. Hate-mail isn't anything more than spam to be ignored in that context.







Or if you want to annoy them write back saying that you've taken to heart what they said and can they provide a complete and fully priced business model for you to use from the ground up - including a new marketing strategy for advertising to a higher tier of paying client, whilst taking into account your local working area  (because you can bet they won't be "that" serious about you "raising your prices")


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## e.rose (Jul 3, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Thank you! I didn't realize I had crossed some line by asking for a second with experience as pay. The listing wasn't even really geared towards all shooting, just needing a hand with getting groups together (both weddings I've recently done had extremely drunk groomsman to deal with) and a reflector/flash holder when needed, allowing them to shoot what they want when I don't need them immediately.
> 
> maybe I should have kept it up, but the weirdos I was getting put me off pretty fast as well lol.



Next time, I wouldn't post your e-mail or your website.

Just list what it is, what the pay is, if you're offering, and have them e-mail you (via the automatically assigned anonymous Craigslist e-mail) with their portfolio if they have one, and for more information, and if you feel good about what you get, respond with your website and whatever other details you need to give them.

I don't second shoot for free *anymore*, but I did when I started.

Actually, I don't shoot weddings at all except AS a second shooter. That's literally all I do right now. Senior portraits, and second shooting. 

I have a friend who uses me on every wedding he does (he's not primarily a wedding photographer, but he's picking up more as he goes, because the money is nice once in a while, haha), and I will drop everything I'm dong to shoot with him, because 1. He's fun to work with and 2. He pays me the most out of anyone I've ever second shot with 

But I'll work with other people, for a little less. I have a set rate, so as long as they're willing to pay me at least that, then I'll shoot with whomever. My friend just refuses to pay me my rate, because he thinks I have it set too low. What a friend, right? 

But, I digress. If you're USED to working alone anyway... getting a second who is willing to work for experience will be fine for you for now. Because even if they TOTALLY screw it up, at least you probably will have covered everything anyway, since you're used to working alone. So it gives you the possible option of more images as well as gives them experience.


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2014)

I'd say if you're looking to hire you'll have to put your website up at the very least - its the first thing most people look for today in a legitimate advertisement. Sure don't put your personal email up as that will just get picked up by troll/adbots but do let a prospective person see that you are serious with your website and work


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

Overread said:


> Craig's list is very much a case of putting up an ad and then sifting through a lot of junk to get what you're after.
> 
> Also I agree with Erose - just block the hate-senders/report them if Craig'slist has such a feature and continue on how you are. Ok so you're cheaper than some; so long as your business model is sensibly profitable and you're making a good income from it then there isn't any "crime" you've made. You're just servicing a cheaper section of the market compared to others. Hate-mail isn't anything more than spam to be ignored in that context.
> 
> ...




yes, I am cheaper than most, a lot cheaper. But this being my first year offering weddings I didn't want to raise the bar so high that I actually freak myself out thinking about how much money someone has invested in me. I also think that everyone should have beautiful wedding pictures, even if they are not in the best financial situation. I make out enough for me to be happy with and my clients have been wonderful. Thanks for your reply, but I am still going to can the Craigslist method. Too much crap to deal with.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

I also LOL'd for real when reading your "send me a detailed business plan" advice lmao. Wish I would have thought of that.


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2014)

A few thoughts on pricing:

1) When you set and market a price point the market for that price point will respond (with good marketing of course). If you work to build yourself a low price point market when you're "new" to the game one problem is that when you then raise that price point you've then lost that investment in marketing. All that time, money and referrals are now wasted and you've got to rebuild a market from the ground up. Whilst its often said that a serious good price for a service will yield more work, you'll likely see a slump till your new marketing kicks in. 

2) You can always discount - set yourself a good serious sensible wage for your time, then you can introduce things like "First 50 weddings 30% off" and "Summer Sale - 40% off all prices this summer only" etc... Basically you're marketing and pitching a higher price point; but at the same time you're enticing people in with a discount. It's a sort of similar effect, but it means that you've not actually "raised" your prices, the discount period just ended.

3) Know your cost of doing business - your living costs - your tax costs etc... - know how much an hour of your time is worth for your company to break even whilst allowing you to live your life off your work. That's your break line - anything less is you giving your product as a gift to your client - anything more is building in profit as well as increased financial security.


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## e.rose (Jul 3, 2014)

Overread said:


> A few thoughts on pricing:
> 
> 1) When you set and market a price point the market for that price point will respond (with good marketing of course). If you work to build yourself a low price point market when you're "new" to the game one problem is that when you then raise that price point you've then lost that investment in marketing. All that time, money and referrals are now wasted and you've got to rebuild a market from the ground up. Whilst its often said that a serious good price for a service will yield more work, you'll likely see a slump till your new marketing kicks in.
> 
> ...



Can I give you some feedback on your advice?

Particular bullet point 2?

NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever, discount, or you're going to be back to bullet point 1.

Offer them some incentive instead. "First 50 weddings get $100 print credit" or something like that.  Make them book you at your normal rate, and then give them a "gift" on top of it or something.

And if you HAVE to "discount", don't call it a discount.

Say "Special introductory rate for first X weddings", and list your NORMAL rates on your site. Advertise the introductory rate in your marketing and social media, but make sure you ACTUAL rates are what your rates are. And make it known wherever you're advertising that it's a *introductory* rate and it will go up to the normal rate after a certain date, or a certain number of sessions.


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2014)

Good points - I think we are partly saying the same thing, but yes wording of things is very key! Also never discount forever - I've seen a couple of companies keep "special discounts" going for so long that you get the impression that its just the normal price - a tacky tactic.


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## e.rose (Jul 3, 2014)

Overread said:


> Good points - I think we are partly saying the same thing, but yes wording of things is very key! Also never discount forever - I've seen a couple of companies keep "special discounts" going for so long that you get the impression that its just the normal price - a tacky tactic.



See, the difference between a discount and offering product pricing is:

I can say, "$150 discount on senior sessions!", which means they could pay me $100, have a senior session done and that would be that.

Or I can say, "Get a $150 product credit when you book your senior session!", which means they pay my FULL session fee, which is $250 -- And then they have $150 to spend after the fact. WHICH... is only enough to get them 3 prints... which gives them incentive to spend more, because most people want more than just 3 gift prints.

So they can get a $100 session and no incentive to spend... Or they can pay my full session fee (which weeds out the price shoppers and leads me to people more my target clientele, because it creates value) AND give them an incentive to spend more with me.

Know what I mean?


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 3, 2014)

I'm sure  this kind of thing goes on all the time.  The biggest problem is not that they may not be threatened by your skills, but when people start advertising rates much lower than what many consider "market value" it drives the whole market down.  Gas station price wars are a good example.  It's not a bad idea to offer deals on occasion but using a rate that undercuts everyone else, regardless of how good or bad any of the players are, it will always create problems, and in your case, hate mail.   They do feel threatened because of the rates and for good reason.  I won't defend hate mail from anyone.  I just understand both sides.

I will defend anyone that is trying to make a go as a full time photographer, I respect that they have the guts or perhaps these days its more nuts, but tthere is never reason for hate mail.  Many on here keep saying that the weekend shooters aren't the ones the professionals should worry about, the truth is that they are exactly the ones that many professionals have to worry about.  I'm finding more and more amateurs with high end gear shooting events for free/tickets/passes  and it affects the photographers that can't work this way.

Think about a new fee structure, you've been given some good ideas by other members on here, but expect more negative comments if you advertise below everyone else.


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## pixmedic (Jul 3, 2014)

I would email each and every one of them back and say this...

Thank you for your reply. 
Please understand that I have tailored my prices to a very specific business model, which is to lowball all of you out of business. 
As soon as you lose all of your clients and have to close shop, I will immediately raise my prices and cash in. 
in the meantime, please enjoy a large helping of my nearly world famous "laughing at you while your business flounders because you suck at it and have to blame others for your crappy business sense" pie... a la mode. 

sincerely, 

the photographer with a better business plan than yours because I actually have one.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 3, 2014)

So you put an ad on craigslist and got email back from haters and pervs.

Hmmm..  well at least we know your internet connection is working.  Lol

I really wouldn't give this one too much thought, just the sort of thing you expect with craigslist.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I see points with all of you on my pricing but I have taken steps to prepare for a "mark-up" I made an announcement via fb that my wedding packages will be increasing in 2015 for me to cover an assistant and that if any brides for 2015 wanted my current prices they would have to book now and lock it in before Dec. 31st of this year. 

I do have a plan, its a little fly by the seat of my pants and pray, but its been working for me. 

Someone mentioned undercutting above, I'm sorry, but I truly doubt me having lower prices is going to snag their clients. 
I have clients that come back over and over, when there has recently been an upturn of photographers in the area, everyone and their mother has a camera and they're charging people $50 a session.. 
When people ask why I'm so much more I tell them because my work is worth more than that, my time and the service they will receive is worth more, that I'm actually considered a discount. People come or people go. I know someone who charges $4,000 as their standard wedding package and they are slammed booked up until 2016. Her work is flawless, and she does it right, so people pay her what she asks, if these other photographers spent more time securing relationships with people instead of attacking others they might fair the same.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> So you put an ad on craigslist and got email back from haters and pervs.
> 
> Hmmm.. well at least we know your internet connection is working. Lol
> 
> I really wouldn't give this one too much thought, just the sort of thing you expect with craigslist.





The hate mail I can deal with, the pervs sending me "portfolios" of naked women on a Flickr page as "experience" to help shoot is something I cannot deal with lol. Ughh.. Why does the world have to be so creepy??


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## robbins.photo (Jul 3, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > So you put an ad on craigslist and got email back from haters and pervs.
> ...



Well I wouldn't do this for just anybody but if you send me the link he sent I can do some further investigation for you.  What can I say, I'm a "giver".   Rotfl


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## JoeW (Jul 3, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> I'm sure  this kind of thing goes on all the time.  The biggest problem is not that they may not be threatened by your skills, but when people start advertising rates much lower than what many consider "market value" it drives the whole market down.  Gas station price wars are a good example.  It's not a bad idea to offer deals on occasion but using a rate that undercuts everyone else, regardless of how good or bad any of the players are, it will always create problems, and in your case, hate mail.   They do feel threatened because of the rates and for good reason.  I won't defend hate mail from anyone.  I just understand both sides.
> 
> I will defend anyone that is trying to make a go as a full time photographer, I respect that they have the guts or perhaps these days its more nuts, but tthere is never reason for hate mail.  Many on here keep saying that the weekend shooters aren't the ones the professionals should worry about, the truth is that they are exactly the ones that many professionals have to worry about.  I'm finding more and more amateurs with high end gear shooting events for free/tickets/passes  and it affects the photographers that can't work this way.
> 
> Think about a new fee structure, you've been given some good ideas by other members on here, but expect more negative comments if you advertise below everyone else.



I think this is about the third post from Scott in the past week where I've basically said "yep--spot on--totally agree."

Let me add a few more thoughts.  You may already know this but...

1.  This is a brutal time to be someone trying to make a go of it as a full-time photographer.  Brutal.  Doesn't matter the field.  Some people are making 6 figures, in high demand, selling coffee table books and doing workshops where novice photographers ask "how do you become a pro?".  And the other 99% are looking at a tough market.  Probably 2% of that 99% have it figured out, they recognize it's tough but they're successful.  The rest are either unrealistic or threatened.  They see their wedding (or portrait or interiors or product) photography business threatened by a bunch of college students or retirees who view this income as found money (b/c they have a day job or don't need a full-time job).  They feel threatened.  I'm not saying this to excuse the behavior--I actually think it's wrong and immature.  But I understand it.  And unless you're doing high-end work charging top-dollar, you can expect to hear that from other photographers.  And anyone who is new or who does it part-time can expect to hear it from those trying to make it full-time...about how the profession is flooded--why are you here?  Or you're hurting all of us trying to make a living at this.  And so on.

2.  It takes a tough skin to be successful at what you do.  And it also takes a receptiveness to criticism.  That's a difficult balance to achieve--not trying to please the critics but learning from them.

My take:  there's a place for wedding photographers who compete by price.  But across industries and sectors, clients who are driven by price typically have no loyalty (they may be happy with you but if they can find a cheaper deal they'll go with it) and often try to gouge you (by making copies of photos or scanning in and then removing the watermark) or having unreasonable expectations (figuring it can't hurt to complain and see what they can get by pushing you and demanding more).  Doesn't mean that isn't a successful model for business, only that competing primarily on price comes with some baggage.

My advice:  go with what you believe works.  And where possible, avoid making enemies.  It never ceases to amaze me how often I could have pissed someone off and avoided it...and then 5 years later out of the blue it often came back to me as a reward.  Yes, do stand up for yourself.  But in business, word of mouth can matter a lot.  So if it's possible to stand for what you believe in but not piss off people needlessly, then take that approach.  Thank the people who sent you messages for their feedback and wish 'em success.  Getting payback or revenge or feeling right are irrelevant to this...you're trying to run a successful business not stroke your ego.


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## ronlane (Jul 3, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
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> 
> > robbins.photo said:
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Now THERE'S a TPF'er going above and beyond the call of duty to help another. We need more like this here.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 3, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
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> > robbins.photo said:
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unfortuntaley I deleted the email swiftly upon looking at his filth. Otherwise I'd totally throw it your way lmfao!


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## robbins.photo (Jul 3, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> robbins.photo said:
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> 
> > AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
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Lol... well, just trying to do my part.  You really have to wonder about this guy though, I mean my goodness.. posting pictures of neekid womens on the internet.  My God.. just imagine if that became some sort of a trend or something.  

Lol


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## Vince.1551 (Jul 3, 2014)

Should have posted their messages in Craiglist and say pervs for hire lol


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## dennybeall (Jul 6, 2014)

There are a number of forums with photographer members from amateurs to seasoned pros and an ongoing theme in all of them is the frustration of the people that are trying to make a living at this business in these times of iPhones and iPads and every Tom Dick and Uncle Harry with a top of the line Canon or Nikon.
I can understand them being upset and frustrated by newer photographers willing to work for much less money. Still no excuse for flaming emails and nasty words but I certainly understand why and am constantly glad I'm just an old retired guy doing photo restoration part time.


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## minicoop1985 (Jul 6, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > So you put an ad on craigslist and got email back from haters and pervs.
> ...



This is why I only post nude self portraits to potential clients.




I see a lot of that kind of work on Facebook in various groups. There's nude modeling with artistic merit, then there's nude modeling just for the tatas or hot dog. Unfortunately, there's a lot more of the latter. I suppose having a portfolio full of nude models is great... if you're trying to shoot nude models, but for a wedding...  not so much.

Getting hate mail's gotta be an interesting experience. I have yet to get it, since there's pretty much no competition for commercial photographers around here, but the baby, kid, and wedding photographers are quite virulent and occasionally downright violent with each other, but those fighting are the ones who would rather blame qualified individuals for their mistakes than actually take the time to learn anything.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 7, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
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> > robbins.photo said:
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So they can email your competition back and say, "Well we loved your portfolio but we decided to hire Dinky instead.  I'm sure you understand."


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## minicoop1985 (Jul 7, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> minicoop1985 said:
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> 
> > AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
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With some of the "work" I've seen around here by supposedly experienced commercial photographers (billboards out of focus, parts of subjects cut off, and so, so, so many just snapshots, not to mention the plastic looking real estate agents and high school seniors) around here, it's only a matter of time before one of them gets mad at me for whatever reason.  God forbid they learn how to take a photo... or admit there's things to learn. I've met a few of the not good but still get business somehow wedding/portrait photographers around here. They have such an attitude problem. They think they know everything. I ask them if they're interested in learning a new skill that's becoming popular (like I've been doing light painting, etc), and I just get "Nope, I know everything that needs to be known and I have no intention of learning anything else." I feel that once someone adopts that attitude (unless they're Derrel and literally are Photography Encarta in person form), they've gone from photographer to just another moron with a camera. The bet wedding photographer I know (in person, he shot my wedding) is always after learning new things and is willing to try just about anything in an effort to be the best he can. He readily admits he doesn't know everything. He's got it right, in my opinion.


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## astroNikon (Jul 7, 2014)

If you were a bit closer I'd 2nd shoot for you .. or if you have any weddings east of Chicago.


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## pixmedic (Jul 7, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> If you were a bit closer I'd 2nd shoot for you .. or if you have any weddings east of Chicago.



I was in Chicago once. Downtown. In the baddest part of town. 
If you happen to be down that way, you had best  beware of a man named Leroy Brown.
He is easily recognizable while driving either his custom continental,  or his El Dorado. He also has a penchant for carrying a .32 gun in his pocket for fun, and a razor in his Shoe.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 7, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> With some of the "work" I've seen around here by supposedly experienced commercial photographers (billboards out of focus, parts of subjects cut off, and so, so, so many just snapshots, not to mention the plastic looking real estate agents and high school seniors) around here, it's only a matter of time before one of them gets mad at me for whatever reason.



Which honestly, baffles me.  You are just so darned loveable.  



> God forbid they learn how to take a photo... or admit there's things to learn. I've met a few of the not good but still get business somehow wedding/portrait photographers around here. They have such an attitude problem. They think they know everything. I ask them if they're interested in learning a new skill that's becoming popular (like I've been doing light painting, etc), and I just get "Nope, I know everything that needs to be known and I have no intention of learning anything else." I feel that once someone adopts that attitude (unless they're Derrel and literally are Photography Encarta in person form), they've gone from photographer to just another moron with a camera. The bet wedding photographer I know (in person, he shot my wedding) is always after learning new things and is willing to try just about anything in an effort to be the best he can. He readily admits he doesn't know everything. He's got it right, in my opinion.



Well naturally you can't include Derrel in that.. frickin cyborg.. lol.   But ya, I get what your saying there.  I've run into a couple of "pros" here locally and I have to admit the attitude really surprised me, I ended up shooting some senior pictures for a girl, friend of a friend kind of deal, the "pro" they originally hired berated her for a couple of hours during the first shoot and basically got very huffy that she wasn't a professional model = kept telling her she was wasting his time, etc.  Just brutal.  It was so bad she didn't even want to get senior pictures by the time he was done, so they waited for a while and then the lady who used to work here as my manager recommended they give me a shot at it.  I really didn't want to do it but I owed her one - I guess the girl posted a couple of the pics I did to her facebook page and Captain uber-pro got all huffy about it saying he'd never been paid and sent her messages and threatened to sue, which was funny because he'd never given her any pics and the one she posted were actually mine.  So I had to have a nice long email chat with Mr Wonderful and pointed out he was going to have a real hard time suing the girl for pictures that he didn't own the copyrights too because I took them.  I also let him know it was pretty foolish to use your home address as your business address and then go out of your way to tick of a 250 lb redneck with anger management issues, and that if he had any further problems I expected him to contact me and leave that poor little high school girl alone.  Odd, we never did hear back from him.. lol.  Wow.. what a tool.  Lol

The other pro I ran into recently was while I was shooting the Memphis Belle, apparently he does some freelance work for some local newspapers, showed up out at the runway with a press pass of some sort hanging around his neck (which was pretty hilarious since the pass was completely unnecessary, I guess it was just for bragging rights).  Well he was pretty pushy and obnoxious and was telling a lot of the folks who where there taking pictures to move out of his way, I heard him use the term "official business" at least half a dozen times, etc.  

I didn't have a run in with him myself, but at least one of the guys there told him to go fornicate himself when he demanded the guy move.  I didn't catch the entire thing, just a snippet or two toward the end, but the photographer says, "Well I work for the (local newspaper) and I'm here on official business" and the older gentleman responded with "I flew bombers during the Korean war, which makes my business here just as official as yours.  Now go find your own spot you nasty little turd"


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## robbins.photo (Jul 7, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > If you were a bit closer I'd 2nd shoot for you .. or if you have any weddings east of Chicago.
> ...



Huh.. I thought he drove a drop top Cadillac. Also last I heard he had a run in with some cat named Slim.. he was a pool shooting boy as I recall. Real name was.. Wily McCoy, but pretty sure everybody called him Slim. Anyway from what I hear Big Jim tried hustling Slim in a game of pool and Slim sliced him up and even shot him a couple of times for good measure. By the time CSI Chicago got involved I guess it was too late though, it had become a cold case and the series got cancelled before they solved it.

Lol

Come to think of it though I might be thinking of another guy... rotfl


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## minicoop1985 (Jul 7, 2014)

East of Chicago... THIS is all there is east of Chicago:

http://614columbus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/water.jpg


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