# "Ill have to ask for youre film as well..."



## d1a1s1 (May 17, 2007)

So theres this abandoned "Insane Asylum" in CT that I drive by twice a day. There are signs posted all over it stating that its state property and there should be no trespassing. Its a whole compound of old condemned hospital buildings over grown with plants and trees. I cant pass by it without a strong urge to penetrate the compound and take a series of spooky black and whites. 
Today I found myself driving home from work early and decided to pull off the road. I grabbed my tri-pod and camera and headed in. Now, Im not one to believe in ghosts or hauntings but this place instantly creeped me out...loved it! 
As soon as I set up my first shot for an HDR a security vehicle pulled up with the drivers hands waving. He explained to me that this was private property and I was not only trespassing but any photography was prohibited. "Damn!"
Then he said "Ill have to ask you for your film as well." 
So heres a thumbs up :thumbup: for digital and another for my D40 having an LCD screen :thumbup:. I showed him I had no pictures on my card and off I went. 
Mark my words TPF, I will get some pics of that place!!


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## Big Mike (May 17, 2007)

I could be wrong...but even if you had taken some shots...I don't think he would have any legal right to take your film (or card etc).

He can certainly ask you to leave the private property though.


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## motcon (May 17, 2007)

unless it's government owned, it's (generally) available to the public for photographing.


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## d1a1s1 (May 17, 2007)

Im not sure about the legality of the situation...but heres a pic of the compound from across the river. Its not in the picture but this place even has an old pier extending into the river...Ive got to get in there!


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## motcon (May 17, 2007)

ok, the 'getting in' part isn't legal. photographing it from public property is legal. to breach private property lines to photograph isn't legal.


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## tasman (May 17, 2007)

I read about this a long time ago. No, they do not have the right to take your film, it is your property. All they can do is ask you to stop what you are doing and leave or charge you with trespassing. But they cant take away your property.


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## motcon (May 17, 2007)

tasman said:


> But they cant take away your property.



you are correct. in legal terms, it's called 'theft with out warrant'.


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## DeepSpring (May 17, 2007)

From what I know it would be illegal for you to trespass on the property but the act of taking pictures while trespassing is perfectly legal. It's like saying you break into a house and eat a sandwich your brought with you. They aren't going to charge you with illegal consumption of a sandwich:lmao::lmao: just breaking and entering

And they are not allowed to take your film either. If they try to persist, this is just a security guard remember, they don't have the authority to do much except for call the police.


btw that picture looks awesome. You need to get yourself in there


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## d1a1s1 (May 17, 2007)

DeepSpring said:


> From what I know it would be illegal for you to trespass on the property but the act of taking pictures while trespassing is perfectly legal. It's like saying you break into a house and eat a sandwich your brought with you. They aren't going to charge you with illegal consumption of a sandwich:lmao::lmao: just breaking and entering
> 
> And they are not allowed to take your film either. If they try to persist, this is just a security guard remember, they don't have the authority to do much except for call the police.
> 
> ...



Its my Unicorn! Its a great place...better than any Hollywood set could pull off. Wait..are you an instigator?!


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## DSLR noob (May 17, 2007)

act insane.... they'll let you in. Only problem is the Hollywood movie style typical backfire when they don't let you out.


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## JimmyJaceyMom (May 17, 2007)

I went to an Elton John concert with my mom once and she had her 35mm with her.  THey let her in with it and no one said anything so she didnt think anything of it.  Then a security guard there saw her with it and threatened to take it!
She was like 'over me dead body!'  So they then said ok they would lock it up in a trailer behind the venue.  She said 'I dont think so"  so they settled on taking the film from it - which sucked cause there was other stuff on there - and letting her take her camera back to the lawn seats with us.
DUH they're dumb - she could have had more film back at the seats.  But anyhow - I wonder if it was legal for them to do that?
hmmmm......


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## craig (May 17, 2007)

Speak with the people in charge of the property. Explain your intentions. I have photographed in a lot of areas. Found out that all you have to do is ask permission. 

Luv & Bass


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## Garbz (May 18, 2007)

It is often little more than a safety issue. If you go on there and hurt yourself, they are responsible. In Australia the torts law says to overcome the problem you need to make a reasonable attempt at protecting people. In this case if you go in and sign something to say you won't sue the owner if you fall and die then they may not care any more.


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## ksmattfish (May 18, 2007)

Photographers' rights in the USA

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2005-12-29-camera-laws_x.htm

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm


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## Alex_B (May 18, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> I showed him I had no pictures on my card and off I went.



well, legally speaking in most countries on this planet you cannot be forced to erase images. nor can the equipment be taken from you. Security often tries to convince you they have the right, but actually they have not in most cases.


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## mysteryscribe (May 18, 2007)

Well I once upon a time in a glaxie far far away worked in a police crime lab and a short time as a cop. Most of what we did like that was intimidation. 

"I would like that pizza you are carrying into that deserted house," kind of thing. 

Now if they were on a piece of property with a posted no trespassing sign you first ask, "You did see the no tresspassing sign right?"

"Duh no officer, I am parked right in front of it but I didn't see it."

"Well tell you what, let me have the film you just shot of the power plant, and you can go."

"Hey you can't take my damn film...I know my rights."

"Good cause...You have the right to remain silent." 

Now that's intimidation. It's also criminal trespass. So if you are in violation of an ordinance give them the film. You might not have to, but it beats hell of a night in the slammer while they do a background check on you,"

You can put up a fuss in a public area about your film,  you most likely will get to go back stage but it won't be to meet the star, it will be for causing a disturbance.  Minor thing but enough inconvenience that you will gladly give them the film next time.



If you are legally in a place and not in violation of any law or ordinance just ask. "Why do you want my film, there are no nikkid people on it. You will be bored silly."

Most likely they have a reason, but sometimes just a rent a cop with an attitude problem trying to enforce a rule that makes no sense.  But he is also mostly like doing his job.  You might want to remember that the client of the rent a cop's company made the rules.  The rent a cop is most likely doing his job.  The company who owns the property most likely has a battery of lawyers.  They could still be on legally shakey ground but my bet is you are on worse.

A concert ticket purchase also is an agreement to follow the rules they set up.  If the rule was no camera your choice was simple give them the film or leave.  I can't see walking away from an Elton JOhn concert as much loss but you probably would.

Probably not legal advice but common sense.


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## d1a1s1 (May 18, 2007)

Well that was the case. It was obviously marked "State Property, No Trespassing" but I figured Id give it a shot. The security guard was an older gentleman and actually quite reasonable. I struck up some conversation about the property and he was willing to talk about it. Now its become something I really really want to get at. Looks like Ill have to pull some Ninja tactics!


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## mysteryscribe (May 18, 2007)

In addition to your camera and film, pack a toothbrush lol


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## d1a1s1 (May 18, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> In addition to your camera and film, pack a toothbrush lol




Ninjas dont carry toothbrushes do they?


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## lkWinnipesaukee (May 19, 2007)

There is an insane asylum near me, dating back to the 1890s. I'll try to get some pictures this weekend. Some of the buildings  just scream "EUGENICS MOVEMENT" to me. I don't really know why. They just look like the buildings pictured in the books I read about the subject. Eerie stuff.


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## -spam- (May 19, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> If you are legally in a place and not in violation of any law or ordinance just ask. "Why do you want my film, there are no nikkid people on it. You will be bored silly."



Thats when you carry a spare unexposed roll with you and say,
"This one however does have nikkid people on it, ill give you this if you let me keep my other roll"


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## mysteryscribe (May 19, 2007)

I like that spam... I'm gonna remember that If I get stopped.


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## -spam- (May 19, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> I like that spam... I'm gonna remember that If I get stopped.



What would be funnier is the thought of them rushing the film to a photo lab somewhere, only to discover that there isnt anything on it.


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## Alex_B (May 19, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> Ninjas dont carry toothbrushes do they?



Hmm, does that mean they stink from their mouth? :mrgreen:


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## d1a1s1 (May 19, 2007)

if you smell the stink of their breath...its too late for you...


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## Alex_B (May 19, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> if you smell the stink of their breath...its too late for you...



I have a good ear, and what seems more important, a fine nose, my friend


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## les_rokr (May 19, 2007)

Man, now that you've shown us the outside of the place, I'm really anxious to see the inside!


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## d1a1s1 (May 19, 2007)

les_rokr said:


> Man, now that you've shown us the outside of the place, I'm really anxious to see the inside!



Welcome to my dilemma!


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## JC1220 (May 19, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> ...Ive got to get in there!


 
Find out who to contact and ask for permission.


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## montresor (May 19, 2007)

This ought to drive you nuts while waiting to get in....

http://www.abandoned-places.com/

And for something to read, with lots of excellent photos,

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/American-Ruins-Camilo-Jose-Vergara/dp/1580930565[/ame]


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## bytch_mynickname (May 20, 2007)

I know a person who is big time into photographing abandoned places. His strategy is to go there and fnd a way in in the early early morning (between 3-4am) and sitting it out and waiting for daylight, then you just have to find a way out. Or if the place is situated so that once you are in, no one can see you, you could always take flashlights and paint with light. 

Take a friend and you may want to find a respirator mask or something you can use, depends on how "into" it you are going to get.


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## mysteryscribe (May 20, 2007)

Or just impersonate a EPA inspector doing a spot check.  Make your own ID.  Paint your car blue, stencil us govt in yellow block letter on the door.. wear plain toed shoes..  Am I getting carried away.


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## digital flower (May 21, 2007)

oops wrong place!


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## d1a1s1 (May 21, 2007)

Looks like someone has beat me to it. Great pictures too. He doesn't explain how he got in though...hmmm

http://www.opacity.us/gallery103_lockdown.htm


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## smyth (May 21, 2007)

if you have the guts to do it again, just have two memory cards on hand, one with your pics, and the other with nothing, and if you see someone coming, just switch them.


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## -spam- (May 22, 2007)

montresor said:


> This ought to drive you nuts while waiting to get in....
> 
> http://www.abandoned-places.com/



And this guys stuff too. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_magoo_icu/

Hes mostly into the whole storm water drain thing, but he also gains entry to a lot of places like that insane asylum. oh and he climbs cranes as well


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## CBRfanatic (May 22, 2007)

Just be glad we live in a country with rights! My mother returned from africa a few months ago, mainly Uganda and surrounding areas. She said there were a few journalist there as well recording the genocide and ongoing political corruption during the voting. She told me about one day they were near a dirt road, one journalist had a canon 1 series camera. A government convoy ( usually one fancy car, and two or more pick-ups with AK-47 toting short tempered men ) was driving down the dirt road, the journalist got up on a small roof top to photograph the convoy, all of a sudden the convoy stops dead in its tracks and one of the AK-47 trucks ( lol ) pulls into the compound where they where. Two men with guns walk up the journalist and begin to yell at him in their native language. Someone that obvioulsy cared about his life, ran over to translate for him. They requested he hand over the film immediately or forceful action would be necessary. He tried to plea to them and explain that his camera is digital and didnt use film, and he showed them how he deleted the pictures in front of them. The two men thought it was trickery and told him that they were going to take the whole camera, including his L series lens!!!!! After all said and done, the man was left with just a camera bag! But he was able to keep his life, luckily. Some scary places out there in this world. My mom plans to go to the Congo later this year with her equipment. I dont know if i am up to going with her or not yet...


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## d1a1s1 (May 22, 2007)

CBRfanatic said:


> Just be glad we live in a country with rights! My mother returned from africa a few months ago, mainly Uganda and surrounding areas. She said there were a few journalist there as well recording the genocide and ongoing political corruption during the voting. She told me about one day they were near a dirt road, one journalist had a canon 1 series camera. A government convoy ( usually one fancy car, and two or more pick-ups with AK-47 toting short tempered men ) was driving down the dirt road, the journalist got up on a small roof top to photograph the convoy, all of a sudden the convoy stops dead in its tracks and one of the AK-47 trucks ( lol ) pulls into the compound where they where. Two men with guns walk up the journalist and begin to yell at him in their native language. Someone that obvioulsy cared about his life, ran over to translate for him. They requested he hand over the film immediately or forceful action would be necessary. He tried to plea to them and explain that his camera is digital and didnt use film, and he showed them how he deleted the pictures in front of them. The two men thought it was trickery and told him that they were going to take the whole camera, including his L series lens!!!!! After all said and done, the man was left with just a camera bag! But he was able to keep his life, luckily. Some scary places out there in this world. My mom plans to go to the Congo later this year with her equipment. I dont know if i am up to going with her or not yet...



Thats pretty rough. Ive been to Africa twice in the past couple years. Its a torn place. I have to say I had some really good times though. Of course I stayed in "safer" areas, even in Congo. 
I definitely wouldn't attempt any "Ninja Photography" in many parts of Africa.


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## CBRfanatic (May 22, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> Thats pretty rough. Ive been to Africa twice in the past couple years. Its a torn place. I have to say I had some really good times though. Of course I stayed in "safer" areas, even in Congo.
> * I definitely wouldn't attempt any "Ninja Photography" in many parts of Africa*.


Most definitely not, well, unless you get your chameleon outfit out from the dry cleaners...

Speaking of Ninja Photography, there is an abandoned paper mill from the late 80's early 90's near me by the river, might be good for some black and white industrial photos....


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## Alex_B (May 22, 2007)

those countries where this sort of ninja photography can be very dangerous, are often also those countries where bribe money opens many doors.

There are countries where for a bit of "bakshish" you get rather far 

but I only reccomend this tactics if you know exactly what you are doing and have a feeling for the mentality in that country... if not it can also go horribly wrong, with your gear being confiscated and you ending up in prison ... if you are lucky ....


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## mysteryscribe (May 22, 2007)

In prison with a date for the prom with a guy who doesn't speak english.


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## d1a1s1 (May 22, 2007)

Didn't all the proms just happen? At least you'll have a whole year to find a new date.


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## Alex_B (May 22, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> In prison with a date for the prom with a guy who doesn't speak english.



.. but he might speak full contact body language ...


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## CBRfanatic (May 22, 2007)

Alex_B said:


> .. but he might speak full contact body language ...


or even worse be very keen in male anatomy. :thumbdown:


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## skieur (May 23, 2007)

The easy answer to that is:

"And I will have to refuse, as is my right."

skieur


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## mysteryscribe (May 23, 2007)

And as I said before:

 the next thing you hear from a cop, who also knows your rights is:  You Have the right to remain silent ect.. You are under arrest for criminal tresspass and I will have to hold your camera as evidence until this comes to trial in about a year.  It's up to you.....   I am absolutely sure this is  THEIR  right in the case mentioned above.... 

If you push therr buttons and they have a reason to shut you down, they will.  Cops have been known to take it personal when an individual fails the attitude test.  Been on both sides of the desk in an interview room.


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## skieur (May 23, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> And as I said before:
> 
> the next thing you hear from a cop, who also knows your rights is: You Have the right to remain silent ect.. You are under arrest for criminal tresspass and I will have to hold your camera as evidence until this comes to trial in about a year. It's up to you..... I am absolutely sure this is THEIR right in the case mentioned above....


 
Actually a camera is not evidence of tresspass and holding it requires a warrant from a judge.

skieur


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## mysteryscribe (May 23, 2007)

Actually you are right, in the case of simple tresspass, but not in criminal. If i could make a prima facia case that you entered with the intent of setting up a burglaryat least possible to use the warehouse as storage for something worse wink wink, which I could only establish with the contents of the camera. I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. That led me to believe it was more than simple treasspass. I believe at that time the camera becomes an element of the criminal treasspass. Were you photographing secruity on the site. I believed at the time your honor the the accused was photographing the secruity system of the building to plan a burglary.. I needed to process the film and use it in evidence against him. Since the camera was evidence in the crime by the simple fact that a police officer saw the defendant in a place he knew was restricted. The defendant was photographing the security system. So the camera was evidence and was fair game to be used as evidence and the images as well. At least that would be my reasoning for taking the camera into evidence and storing it till the trial. Im not sure your lawyer could get it back before the trial date. Then if I lost it would be sorry I made an honest mistake.

If I didn't want to go that route, I would just take the camera as property in your possesion at the time of arrest. Property to be safeguarded by *ME. *Until you are booked. You can't go into the slammer holding your nikon or your car keys. Oh that's right your car is In the impound yard anyway. I have to hold the camera till after you are arraigned before the magistrate or judge depending on how it is done in your juristiction. At which time bail will be set pending your court appearance. Then when you make bail you could claim your camera and other possessions. Then you could call have your lawyer drive you back to your car. Fat chance. Or you could call a family member to do it, and explain to them how you got tossed into the slammer to protect your right to keep a $2 roll of film or to keep you memory card from being cleaned.

Cost of lawyer... impound fee for towing the car.... bail bondsman cost... cab fare to the impound.. and a couple of hours in the slammer. All for a few shots of a deserted building. 

*OF COURSE IT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF THE THING *

You would be surprised in the real world how few people think that kind of inconvenience is worth a roll of film .....

Sorry professor it just don't work that way. In some point the cost of keeping a $2 roll of film or not cleaning a card becomes prohibative. Explaining to your wife why it cost you 200 bucks for the picture of an empty warehouse is going to be hard, especially if she goes to court and finds out how easy it would have been for you to back down anywhere along the line.

Your statement about as is my right will come in and sound like a dodge to keep the illegal image. If you were breaking the law by being there it has to be an image gained illegally therefore an illegal image. I think that is how the law convolutes it. 

*And that isn't even going into the african version of the bullet in the head for the wiseassed photographer.*


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## highwoodhiker (May 26, 2007)

d1a1s1 said:


> Looks like someone has beat me to it. Great pictures too. He doesn't explain how he got in though...hmmm
> 
> http://www.opacity.us/gallery103_lockdown.htm


 
It's probably the security guard. You should appply for his position when he leaves.


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## mysteryscribe (May 26, 2007)

apply for his job is the best idea yet.


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## Riggaberto (May 27, 2007)

Well you dont have to give up the images, but cant they report you for tresspassing if they dont like your attitude, no?


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## skieur (May 27, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> Actually you are right, in the case of simple tresspass, but not in criminal. If i could make a prima facia case that you entered with the intent of setting up a burglaryat least possible to use the warehouse as storage for something worse wink wink, which I could only establish with the contents of the camera. I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. *.*


 
You could not make a prima facia case at least in Canada and probably in the US too, unless I had some criminal background and previous arrests.

skieur


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## coastietech (May 27, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> Actually you are right, in the case of simple tresspass, but not in criminal. If i could make a prima facia case that you entered with the intent of setting up a burglaryat least possible to use the warehouse as storage for something worse wink wink, which I could only establish with the contents of the camera. I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. That led me to believe it was more than simple treasspass. I believe at that time the camera becomes an element of the criminal treasspass. Were you photographing secruity on the site. I believed at the time your honor the the accused was photographing the secruity system of the building to plan a burglary.. I needed to process the film and use it in evidence against him. Since the camera was evidence in the crime by the simple fact that a police officer saw the defendant in a place he knew was restricted. The defendant was photographing the security system. So the camera was evidence and was fair game to be used as evidence and the images as well. At least that would be my reasoning for taking the camera into evidence and storing it till the trial. Im not sure your lawyer could get it back before the trial date. Then if I lost it would be sorry I made an honest mistake.
> 
> If I didn't want to go that route, I would just take the camera as property in your possesion at the time of arrest. Property to be safeguarded by *ME. *Until you are booked. You can't go into the slammer holding your nikon or your car keys. Oh that's right your car is In the impound yard anyway. I have to hold the camera till after you are arraigned before the magistrate or judge depending on how it is done in your juristiction. At which time bail will be set pending your court appearance. Then when you make bail you could claim your camera and other possessions. Then you could call have your lawyer drive you back to your car. Fat chance. Or you could call a family member to do it, and explain to them how you got tossed into the slammer to protect your right to keep a $2 roll of film or to keep you memory card from being cleaned.
> 
> ...


 Its LEO's like you that give all LEO's a bad name. Your post screams jack booted thug. I deal with LEOs like you all the time. I am a huge gun rights activist and quite a few cops don't think anyone other than them should own guns so they try an bully people and make them think what they are doing is wrong when in fact it isn't. I verse myself in the law fairly well because of cops like you. You try to play the law in a way that isn't right because you don't like someones attitude. That is unprofessional and extremely dishonorable. But thats ok, because cops like you make people like me rich off of lawsuits. Oh and by the way I have no problems with LEO's. I have quite a few friends that are LEO's and I am considered a LEO. I do have a problem with Jack booted thugs. And your posts sound like a very typical jack booted thug. Essentially your posts amount to "do as I say or I will make your life hell." That attitude is what shows LEOs in a poor light and it's what gets them in trouble. And one day you will try that with someone like me who is well versed in his rights and that person will do everything in their power to get you fired.


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## coastietech (May 27, 2007)

Not to mention the fact that the worst person to talk about laws with is a LEO. It's ashame that American citizens have come to take a LEOs word as law. Very rarely do people question something that a LEO says, this is what gives them their perceived power.  As a citizen you have rights take the time to learn them and question people when they attempt to take them away from you.


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## abraxas (May 28, 2007)

"I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. ."

Is *the photo the surveilence camera took* in evidence?


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## Garbz (May 28, 2007)

For those non Americans among us I assume LEO is law enforcement officer? Police or otherwise?

We've had a case in Sydney were the police arrested someone who was taking photographs of two sleeping backpackers on Bondai beach. Confiscated the camera, took the guy back to the station claiming he is what's wrong with society (they assumed the worst ofcourse. Camera + Beach must = pedophile). Anyway the version of the story I heard is that this guy turned around and sued the police for all sorts of missuse of law charges. Anyway turns out the guy was Rex Dupain the son of one of Australia's most highly regarded photographers who was writing a book about the beach in question.

I've also had a run-in with a police officer who pulled me over for "dangerous driving" after I got cut off and was forced to slam on the breaks. When he threatened to try and suspend my licence because I was "just another 19 year old idiot on the road" which he clearly couldn't do I spent about 10 minutes shouting at him.

Really LEOs are our friends and we will treat them with respect and honour if we are returned the favour.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

Sweetie I'm not a cop. I'm a retired professional photographer. So you are starting with the wrong premise. I was a police photographer and a cop many years ago. Now as to your rant about cops and being badge heavy. Wear one a while then get back to me. 

Ps. I'm not sure I ever saw a pair of jack boots on a US cop. I have seen paratrooper boots.

The discussion was about the real world not a some pie in the sky I have my rights.  If you think the right to take a picture of a building on private property is worth all the bs then hey shoot the damn thing.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

abraxas said:


> "I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. ."
> 
> Is *the photo the surveilence camera took* in evidence?


 

Gee your honor I saw him point it I had no way of knowing if he took it or not.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

coastietech said:


> Not to mention the fact that the worst person to talk about laws with is a LEO. It's ashame that American citizens have come to take a LEOs word as law. Very rarely do people question something that a LEO says, this is what gives them their perceived power. As a citizen you have rights take the time to learn them and question people when they attempt to take them away from you.


 
Okay guys you just refuse to give them your film or wipe your card when YOU are on private marked property stand on your rights... LOL

Pss... I'm telling you how it is and you want to make it a personal thing.  Problem is I'm not a cop and cops aren't the enemy... Real world is seldom what you think it should be cause everybody wants it different.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

I wonder if they will let me change my user name to jackbootedthug.  Thats beginning to grow on me.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

*Quote: I've also had a run-in with a police officer who pulled me over for "dangerous driving" after I got cut off and was forced to slam on the breaks. When he threatened to try and suspend my licence because I was "just another 19 year old idiot on the road" which he clearly couldn't do I spent about 10 minutes shouting at him.*

I would have simply written you a ticket for reckless driving and let you explain it to the judge. You probably would have gotten off after your explaination but still wasted a day in court.

reminds me of a sunday morning back when I was a JACK BOOTED THUG. Man runs a stopsign early in the morning. I pulled him over to give him a warning. First thing he says is, "Do you know who the hell I am."

"No sir but if you get me your drivers license and registration while I go back for my ticket booK i will know." 

Think about that for a minute. 

Like I said been a lot of years with a camera not a badge but I still know better than to fail the attitude test. It's called reality.


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## The_Traveler (May 28, 2007)

I want to add a message here but nothing I could say would be funnier than reading these posts. And I don't want to miss any.

I am a huge gun activist also - mostly because a have a huge gun and I try and keep it active.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

Oh come on travelman. 

I plan to call a lawyer next time someone breaks into my house at 2am. I want to be sure I'm not violating his rights, when I blow him into next week with a sawed off shotgun. 

I will probably be wrong to have done it, but I'm guessing there is not a judge in the world these days who can raise him from the dead to testify. That will be another tragic case of gee whiz judge I had no idea he had to be doing x for me to do y. 

I want a jury trial.

Can you say OJ Simpson.


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## usayit (May 28, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> Actually you are right, in the case of simple tresspass, but not in criminal. If i could make a prima facia case that you entered with the intent of setting up a burglaryat least possible to use the warehouse as storage for something worse wink wink, which I could only establish with the contents of the camera. I simple state to judge at the time of the court hearing several weeks later, that I observed you with the camera and at the time I saw you, you were pointing it at a surveilence camera. That led me to believe it was more than simple treasspass. I believe at that time the camera becomes an element of the criminal treasspass. Were you photographing secruity on the site. I believed at the time your honor the the accused was photographing the secruity system of the building to plan a burglary.. I needed to process the film and use it in evidence against him. Since the camera was evidence in the crime by the simple fact that a police officer saw the defendant in a place he knew was restricted. The defendant was photographing the security system. So the camera was evidence and was fair game to be used as evidence and the images as well. At least that would be my reasoning for taking the camera into evidence and storing it till the trial. Im not sure your lawyer could get it back before the trial date. Then if I lost it would be sorry I made an honest mistake.
> 
> If I didn't want to go that route, I would just take the camera as property in your possesion at the time of arrest. Property to be safeguarded by *ME. *Until you are booked. You can't go into the slammer holding your nikon or your car keys. Oh that's right your car is In the impound yard anyway. I have to hold the camera till after you are arraigned before the magistrate or judge depending on how it is done in your juristiction. At which time bail will be set pending your court appearance. Then when you make bail you could claim your camera and other possessions. Then you could call have your lawyer drive you back to your car. Fat chance. Or you could call a family member to do it, and explain to them how you got tossed into the slammer to protect your right to keep a $2 roll of film or to keep you memory card from being cleaned.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but this is the exact reason why I have a Love/Hate relationship with police officers....  I'm in Jersey and many cops come off as bullies from High school that never grew up.  You wouldn't believe the border line corruption that occurs around here in regards to the Police.

Some say.. to "Serve thyself and protect no one".


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## The_Traveler (May 28, 2007)

where is this a discussion about photography?


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## usayit (May 28, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> I want to add a message here but nothing I could say would be funnier than reading these posts. And I don't want to miss any.
> 
> I am a huge gun activist also - mostly because a have a huge gun and I try and keep it active.



It probably doesn't and has strayed off topic.. but thats normal for threads of any topic or forum...  TPF is pretty laid back.

Besides... Mr Traveler your previous post wasn't exactly on topic either.


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## The_Traveler (May 28, 2007)

usayit said:


> Besides... Mr Traveler your previous post wasn't exactly on topic either.



Perhaps, I'll post a picture.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

Well I was a cop believe it or not when frank serpico was talking to the knapp commission.  It was hard for us down here to pick sides.  There really is that brotherhood of the badge thing, and also that I never took a penny and hate the idea of cops who do.  

I think it will always be an us vs them mentality, since cops are a sub culture.  They are mainly because society sees them that way.

I went to a christmas party back then.  Someone asked what I did and I tried to be vague.  Said i worked for the city.  "You a cop?"
  "Who me, na Im a garbage collector."

" Oh hell have a drink then."

So yeah it comes down to a subculture usually.  Damn shame, and the name calling doesn't help much.  It just solidifies the us vs them mentality.


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## coastietech (May 28, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> .......I think it will always be an us vs them mentality, since cops are a sub culture.  They are mainly because society sees them that way.........


I hate to tell you but most cops make it a point to separate them from  the rest of society. For  example I got into a conversation with a LEO that kept referring to everyone as civilians. He got all defensive when I asked him "WTF?" and then told him "you are a civilian too!" The only people who aren't civilians are military. Most cops that I have met walk around with this holier than thou attitude. If I give you an attitude and you proceed to use the law unjustly to get back at me you are not only acting unprofessionally but you are now the cause of a potential lawsuit. As for me wearing the badge I don't need to wear it to be able to tell you that the way your post came across is not only unprofessional, but it screams I'm a bully and I like to push people around.


PS- I confused were you a retired cop? Or were you a retired department photographer who is a wanna be retired cop? If it is the latter then I am glad you are no longer a LEO, if the former than what the hell are you babbling about.


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## The_Traveler (May 28, 2007)

I personally believe that MysteryScribe is a Commie agent over here to corrupt our vital bodily fluids.

Gee Whiz, Coastie, dial it back.
Self-righteous anger based on conjecture just becomes silly after a while.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

Let me see, I was a professional photographer first, police photographer, then I was a cop, then I was a professional photographer again.  Now you might not like my attitude, for which I truly am sorry, but you might also want to realize that it isnt about cops and civilians how much is the shot worth to you.  In the real world vs the world of law schools and college courses just how much is that film really worth to you.  That image that you shouldn't be there to take anyway.  That is the point of it all.   

As to was I badge heavy and a jack booted thug, hell I have no idea.  That is for someone else to say.  Do I respect cops you bet your *** I do.  If it was me in a place I shouldn't be, with a roll of film I had just shot, and a cop said to me give him the film and be on my way, i would be happy to say sure.  

If there were other things on there that I wanted I might ask for that to be honored, which I assume it would be since he doesn't give a crap about that film as long as it isnt showing something it shouldnt be.  He might lose it but again, I SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE ANYWAY.

Now is it all cleared up for you?  I do hope so... and now that we have both vented how about we just move on.  Or should we drag this out and bore everyone else a while longer.  I have a pretty good idea nobody else gives a rats behind what either of us think of the other.

For me it's about how much you want to sacrifice for your right to make a shot, where you shouldnt be, or of a thing you agreed not to shoot in the first place (concert).  I made the statements simply to show people that sometimes its better to weigh the loss against the advantage.   But hey you have your own baggage to carry as do I.  but I will give you the last word so please feel free I'm personally finished.


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## Mike_E (May 28, 2007)

LOL There are WAY too many people in this thread listening to the voices in their own heads!  The OP was talking about wanting to take photos in a posted property and being kept from doing so.  

With a little imagination the OP should not only have permission but have the security guard as a guide.  Where we as a group have failed is in finding a way to make this happen.  (the first step is in finding out who owns the property and who is in charge of it)

While some here are spouting their righteous indignation the fact of the matter is that since 9/11 the world has changed.  It has changed for the worse and reminiscing about the occasional dolt in uniform is not going to help.  In fact picking out one or even a few bad examples of people in a group to scorn is the basis of racism/religious fanaticism/general fascism and should be avoided like the plague!  If you want to really change the world then you must look to the example of[SIZE=-1]* Mahatma Gandhi! 

*[/SIZE]So, let's stop calling each other names and concentrate on getting the OP in and permission to do the shoot!

mike


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

I agree completely its always about the image....


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## coastietech (May 28, 2007)

Fair enough, sometimes I get a little carried away as was the case in this scenario. No hard feeling though.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

So do I. I really didn't intend to start this kind of controversy.  But I will NOT kiss and make up.  It's going to have to be a handshake. lol


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## Mike_E (May 28, 2007)

Fair enough, who actually owns and who is in charge of the property?

I'm thinking here that maybe a spread to shop to Hollywood for location prospects might work.  Might also need to know what other information Hollywood would need to consider the location for a location.  Anyone know what that might be?

mike


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## usayit (May 28, 2007)

coastietech said:


> I hate to tell you but most cops make it a point to separate them from  the rest of society.



Not to mention the "PBA" cards which cops hand out to their friends and families.  For those who don't know what a "PBA" card, they are often referred to as "Get out of Jail" cards... even better.. you don't even get asked to step out of your car.  I've literally had people get (acquaintences.. sadly enough) into my car and say "go ahead and speed, I've got my card with me".

Subculture? Sheesh.. more like a fraternaty of thugs with a badge.

So back on topic,

So MysteryScribe (as you seem to be the expert on this topic), lets paint a picture that the police officer requesting your film is obviously wrong.  Letsay you were taking a photo from a public area into a private area (nothing bad.. letsay an abandoned building).  A police officer requests that your roll be turned over.   Then what?  How would you handle that situation? Obviously the intimidation tactics you describe can be used trespassing or not. 

Me the first thing I do whenever I engage a police officer is to ask for their name and badge number.  If they ask for my film, I'll hand it over to them informing them that they have no right to take my property but I am handing it over to him/her at their request.  Inform them that they are legally obliged to return the property undamaged.  Thankfully, this has only happened once and did not result in property damage.  

On trespassing, I've been "caught" numerous times usually by the property owner or security.  I always politely state that I am a photographer who means no harm and start walking immediately off the property.  They have no right to do anything more than ask you to leave.


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## mysteryscribe (May 28, 2007)

First of all im no expert on anything. second of all you sound like a reasonable individual and its what I would recommend. Make a mild objection and then hand over your film. Get his name number or unit number. unless things have changed all cops will be wearing name tag you dont even have to make an issue of it.

Then its a simple matter to drive to the statiion house and talk to the desk sargant who will send you to the shift supervisor most likely he will call in the officer and if you truly have not broken any law the cop should say yes I took his film because I wasn't sure. the shift supervisor should make the decission. If you have been polite there is no reason they would give you a hard time it would amount to a misunderstanding.

As to being on private property it becomes tresspass if you are asked to leave by either written or verbal request by the owner and refuse to do so. If you had not been in a tresspass situation there would be no reason for a cop to be there. They seldom go onto private property without a request. Even in the middle of the night the most a cop will do usually is fill out and fi card and ask you to leave since it is private property. If you refuse to leave for some reason that sounds unreasonable he might charge you with tresspass. That is my experience with it anyway others might have differnt ones. However... there is that attitude test thing. Now I know you don't like to hear that, but it's best to just be polite and go along then assert your rights later. Seriously they can make it very uncomfortable and believe it or not magistrates and cops are a tight knit group usually. You might win at trial but like I said why bother over a two dollar roll of film. Or cleaning a card of shots you shouldn't have made anyway.

Now guys this truly is my last statement on this... have fun 

sincerely the 
jack booted thug.


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## coastietech (May 28, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> sincerely the
> jack booted thug.


I thought you didn't wear jack boots.


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## Mike_E (May 28, 2007)

Must have just been on e-bay!


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## Garbz (May 29, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> I would have simply written you a ticket for reckless driving and let you explain it to the judge. You probably would have gotten off after your explaination but still wasted a day in court.
> 
> reminds me of a sunday morning back when I was a JACK BOOTED THUG. Man runs a stopsign early in the morning. I pulled him over to give him a warning. First thing he says is, "Do you know who the hell I am."



That could get you in trouble in this country. Don't get me wrong I am no one special, but in this case the officer himself failed the attitude test. A day in court is nothing compared to a mark on a permanent record. I am glad your reality of officers abusing their rights and bullying others is different than mine.


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## skieur (Jun 7, 2007)

Garbz said:


> That could get you in trouble in this country. Don't get me wrong I am no one special, but in this case the officer himself failed the attitude test. A day in court is nothing compared to a mark on a permanent record. I am glad your reality of officers abusing their rights and bullying others is different than mine.


 
I think, Garbz, that you would really want to avoid American customs when it comes to "attitude"....much worse.

skieur


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