# Just had an inquiry about shoot for a baby's bday, including kids



## hfocal

Hi don't mean to crowd this section but as I'm looking to go pro, this might be my home for a while lol. The inquiry came from a previous volunteer shoot I did. Now I'm being asked the "what's your price" question.

I've just prepared something to respond with on the lines that include my hands-on experience shooting kids/babies which is really not a lot - except for online courses at CreativeLive - and that I can charge on the low side, xxx, for 20 edited images, and other details. If they're ok with price, I'll probably do it. And cause well babies are babies. They are cute and precious and grow way way fast! Of course they need breaks, need attention, need being fed, have allergies, illnesses, tantrums, etc.  Only hesitating cause I don’t have liability insurance, can't afford it yet. I also have no personal connections with the inquirer either so it really makes it tough a decision. The shoot is in a month. Is it workable anyway without insurance or just let it go?


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## Designer

hfocal said:


> Is it workable anyway without insurance or just let it go?


Can you afford to be sued?  Talk to your insurance agent.  He might be able to work out a one-event coverage policy.  Lots of beginner pros are without any liability insurance, but that doesn't mean all should.


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## KmH

There is no location information in your profile.
Are you in the USA?

Since you don't have liability insurance I was wondering if do you have a legal, registered business prepared to collect and forward sales taxes and such to the appropriate local and/or state department(s)?


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## hfocal

I'm in BC, Canada . Doing a google search for a one-event insurance policy as we speak. Referrals welcome .

Currently, a family with accounting background helps me with business registration but think I'll need to do it myself cause they don't seem to really be interested being a part of my business. Now wondering too, would insurers need one's business.. registered first ?

Also, working out how I'll change my XXX pricing based on what insurance I'll have to pay if I find any.


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## hfocal

And also searching for a Contract and Release template for this type of shoot. Appreciate your help in advance


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## tirediron

I think you've got a case of 'cartbeforethehorseitis'.  You're not likely to get all of your business ducks in a row in time for this shoot, so rather than trying to do that, having a million things on your mind, and mucking up something at the shoot, do it pro bono.  Tell them that you're in the process of getting things set up, but you're not there quite yet, and because of that, you will do it free of charge, but if they're happy with the results, they can buy you a fancy meal or something.  While it's by no means fool-proof, as an amateur, you're in a much better position in the unlikely event that something does go wrong, with respect to liability, and in fact your homeowner's policy may even cover you.  

Getting a business set up in BC is not terribly complicated.  Expect the whole process to take 2-3 evenings and cost around $100 for the various filing fees, etc.  It's all done on-line through the provincial government's website.


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## Designer

hfocal said:


> Currently, a family with accounting background helps me with business registration but think I'll need to do it myself cause they don't seem to really be interested being a part of my business. Now wondering too, would insurers need one's business.. registered first ?


In our state there are people sitting by the telephone waiting to help people get their Federal and State tax ID all set up, and it's free.  As to insurance, you'll just have to call around.



hfocal said:


> And also searching for a Contract and Release template for this type of shoot. Appreciate your help in advance


While you can find examples online, they might not be an ideal choice.  They could have been written by someone not familiar with Canadian Law, they might be written to favor the client over the contractor, they might be full of errors and omissions.


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## hfocal

Oh no, messing up something at shoot is not what I plan to do. I have my Photography Workflows put together as well (PDFs), just the liability part is what I'm worried about cause I don't know these people. Have they screwed someone else before in court? It's just me trying to put together preventative measures I guess.


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## table1349

hfocal said:


> Oh no, messing up something at shoot is not what I plan to do. I have my Photography Workflows put together as well (PDFs), just the liability part is what I'm worried about cause I don't know these people. Have they screwed someone else before in court? It's just me trying to put together preventative measures I guess.


No one plans to mess up.  This guy certainly didn't, but you know the old saying, $#!& happens.
Pregnant Woman Struck by Train Was an Aspiring Model

And with babies and kids $#!& happens All the D@^* time.


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## loonatic45414

I would see what the law says about getting a surety bond. Cheaper, easier to get. 

Basic difference is a bond pays out & you have to reimburse the bond. Insurance takes your money, if they pay out, they generally don't charge you for what was paid out, but you pay regular premiums.  You're betting against yourself, basically.  If you take little, sporadic jobs, the bond is the way to go.

I don't know about how long it takes where you live, but I was set up with everything I needed in one afternoon and it didn't cost a lot.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk


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## table1349

loonatic45414 said:


> I would see what the law says about getting a surety bond. Cheaper, easier to get.
> 
> Basic difference is a bond pays out & you have to reimburse the bond. Insurance takes your money, if they pay out, they generally don't charge you for what was paid out, but you pay regular premiums.  You're betting against yourself, basically.  If you take little, sporadic jobs, the bond is the way to go.
> 
> I don't know about how long it takes where you live, but I was set up with everything I needed in one afternoon and it didn't cost a lot.
> 
> Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk


Yep good idea if you have a million or two in the bank to back the bond, otherwise its a fools risk.  Anyone doing professional photography is an idiot if they do not carry insurance.  Simple Fact.


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## loonatic45414

gryphonslair99 said:


> Yep good idea if you have a million or two in the bank to back the bond, otherwise its a fools risk.  Anyone doing professional photography is an idiot if they do not carry insurance.  Simple Fact.



"Simple fact" is not substantive enough. Please include examples/references to back up your claim and support your theory. It would greatly benefit us all.

Otherwise it's just chiming in, which you seem to do a lot of.


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## table1349

loonatic45414 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep good idea if you have a million or two in the bank to back the bond, otherwise its a fools risk.  Anyone doing professional photography is an idiot if they do not carry insurance.  Simple Fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Simple fact" is not substantive enough. Please include examples/references to back up your claim and support your theory. It would greatly benefit us all.
> 
> Otherwise it's just chiming in, which you seem to do a lot of.
Click to expand...

Did you have the cash on hand to reimburse the bond that you got?  If so why did you waste the money on the bonding agent?  They usually want 10% for the service.  

If not, you were writing checks your @$$ couldn't cover with the bonding agent.    

*How Do Surety Bonds Work?*
To put it simply, they guarantee that specific tasks are fulfilled. This is achieved by bringing three parties together in a mutual, legally binding contract.


The *principal* is the individual or business that purchases the bond to guarantee future work performance.
The *obligee* is the entity that requires the bond. Obligees are typically government agencies working to regulate industries and reduce the likelihood of financial loss.
The *surety* is the insurance company that backs the bond. The surety provides a line of credit in case the principal fails to fulfill the task.
The obligee can make a claim to recover losses if the principal does fail to fulfill the task. If the claim is valid, the insurance company will pay reparation that cannot exceed the bond amount. *The underwriters will then expect the principal to reimburse them for any claims paid.*
What is a Surety Bond? - SuretyBonds.com

Simple common sense, anyone in any type of business that does not carry insurance on the business including liability insurance is an idiot.   If it is a one time or short term thing (usually 10 days or less) then Special Event insurance is the way to go.


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## loonatic45414

I'm not saying it's for everyone. But if you do small gigs, definitely have a good contract that limits your liability and protects your work.

Yes, you do reimburse a bonding agent. That's just another way of saying "you broke it, you pay for it."

With an insurance company, you pay for it either way, plus you're paying their profit, their business expenses, and their liability, etc, every month.  You usually pay the same premium whether you do 1 job or 30 jobs a month.

A bond can take an unprofitable situation and make it profitable, especially for small jobs.

Special event insurance is great if you're doing a wedding or something with large potential profit. A child's birthday party would hardly be profitable.

Different localities require differing amounts, and in my experience, a bond is basically extended as a line of credit. It's just a way of ensuring you can pay for something you broke, nothing more.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk


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## table1349

loonatic45414 said:


> I'm not saying it's for everyone. But if you do small gigs, definitely have a good contract that limits your liability and protects your work.
> 
> Yes, you do reimburse a bonding agent. That's just another way of saying "you broke it, you pay for it."
> 
> With an insurance company, you pay for it either way, plus you're paying their profit, their business expenses, and their liability, etc, every month.  You usually pay the same premium whether you do 1 job or 30 jobs a month.
> 
> A bond can take an unprofitable situation and make it profitable, especially for small jobs.
> 
> Special event insurance is great if you're doing a wedding or something with large potential profit. A child's birthday party would hardly be profitable.
> 
> Different localities require differing amounts, and in my experience, a bond is basically extended as a line of credit. It's just a way of ensuring you can pay for something you broke, nothing more.
> 
> Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk



So what is the cost of paying for a, oh I don't know, a *broke kid*.  $10,000.00,  $100,000.00, $1,000,000.00?   

Tell me, do you get a bond every time you drive a car, do you carry auto insurance, or are you one of those ...that don't bother with insurance on their vehicle with the Hell with it if an accident happens attitude?


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## loonatic45414

gryphonslair99 said:


> So what is the cost of paying for a, oh I don't know, a *broke kid*.  $10,000.00,  $100,000.00, $1,000,000.00?
> 
> Tell me, do you get a bond every time you drive a car, do you carry auto insurance, or are you one of those that don't bother with insurance on their vehicle with the Hell with it if an accident happens attitude?



Nice debate so far, but I'm not taking that bait. Have fun at the bottom.


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## hfocal

gryphonslair99 said:


> hfocal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no, messing up something at shoot is not what I plan to do. I have my Photography Workflows put together as well (PDFs), just the liability part is what I'm worried about cause I don't know these people. Have they screwed someone else before in court? It's just me trying to put together preventative measures I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> No one plans to mess up.  This guy certainly didn't, but you know the old saying, $#!& happens.
> Pregnant Woman Struck by Train Was an Aspiring Model
> 
> And with babies and kids $#!& happens All the D@^* time.
Click to expand...


That's really unfortunate. I would be really pissed if I knew the photographer didn't make her back away from both tracks not just the other one. First of all, I wouldn't let someone lay / sit on it knowing it's a live track. What the heck


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## hfocal

About Special Event Insurance or any liability insurance, so let's say one has it, would you still have a line in the contract like for example below?

Indemnification. The Photographer shall be held harmless for any and all injury to client during the course of the photography session and the immediately surrounding events 

Speaking of common sense, probably this isn't needed anymore but let's say you've agreed about a client's idea, you're careful enough doing it but it goes horribly wrong for uncontrollable reasons, will this line protect you still?


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## table1349

loonatic45414 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is the cost of paying for a, oh I don't know, a *broke kid*.  $10,000.00,  $100,000.00, $1,000,000.00?
> 
> Tell me, do you get a bond every time you drive a car, do you carry auto insurance, or are you one of those  that don't bother with insurance on their vehicle with the Hell with it if an accident happens attitude?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice debate so far, but I'm not taking that bait. Have fun at the bottom.
Click to expand...

No bait to it.  Did you read the OP's original post? _"Only hesitating cause I don’t have liability insurance, can't afford it yet."
_
If the OP doesn't think they can afford insurance what makes you think they can afford a bond that they are ultimately responsible for? Are you going to step up and guarantee their bond?

That's the problem with advice like that.  It's easy to throw it out there when you have no stake in the game.  But woe be to the person that gets caught in a situation that followed such advise.


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## table1349

hfocal said:


> About Special Event Insurance or any liability insurance, so let's say one has it, would you still have a line in the contract like for example below?
> 
> Indemnification. The Photographer shall be held harmless for any and all injury to client during the course of the photography session and the immediately surrounding events
> 
> Speaking of common sense, probably this isn't needed anymore but let's say you've agreed about a client's idea, you're careful enough doing it but it goes horribly wrong for uncontrollable reasons, will this line protect you still?


Asking legal advise such as that on a forum is totally worthless.  That is why anyone setting up their own business needs a good lawyer for such matters.


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## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> hfocal said:
> 
> 
> 
> About Special Event Insurance or any liability insurance, so let's say one has it, would you still have a line in the contract like for example below?
> 
> Indemnification. The Photographer shall be held harmless for any and all injury to client during the course of the photography session and the immediately surrounding events
> 
> Speaking of common sense, probably this isn't needed anymore but let's say you've agreed about a client's idea, you're careful enough doing it but it goes horribly wrong for uncontrollable reasons, will this line protect you still?
> 
> 
> 
> Asking legal advise such as that on a forum is totally worthless.  That *is why anyone setting up their own business needs a good lawyer for such matters*.
Click to expand...

So, so, sooooooo true.  That said, you can put whatever you want in a contract but it does NOT make you bullet-proof.  You can be sued regardless of the contract and if a judge finds that you were negligent, he's going to award damages to the client, and won't care what your contract said.


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## loonatic45414

tirediron said:


> So, so, sooooooo true.  That said, you can put whatever you want in a contract but it does NOT make you bullet-proof.  You can be sued regardless of the contract and if a judge finds that you were negligent, he's going to award damages to the client, and won't care what your contract said.



A. If we thought of what could happen to us that day, we would never leave the house.

B. LLC - limited liability corporation.  Whatever happens, they cannot hold you personally liable, only the company.

C. People can and do often sign away their rights on contracts. Or they could choose not to contract you.

D. Of course get a lawyer.  We all make jokes about them, but they do have their purpose.


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## tirediron

loonatic45414 said:


> A. If we thought of what could happen to us that day, we would never leave the house.
> 
> B. LLC - limited liability corporation.  Whatever happens, they cannot hold you personally liable, only the company.
> 
> C. People can and do often sign away their rights on contracts. Or they could choose not to contract you.
> 
> D. Of course get a lawyer.  We all make jokes about them, but they do have their purpose.


A  Quite possibly.

B.  Completely untrue.

C.  True, and absolutely true, but if you do some research, you will find that the courts frequently fail to uphold contracts where the client is asked to agree to unspecified perils or to accept negligent behaviour. 

D.  Unfortunately, true.

First and foremost:  I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on television and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, HOWEVER...  I have done my research, and I have had consultations with and advice from lawyers both in general practice and those specializing in contract and IP law.

People frequently incorrectly assume that because they've got a clause in their contract which states they are not liable for <situation> they are immune from litigation.  You can be sued by anyone for anything, and while it's reasonable for a company which conducts an inherently and overtly dangerous business such as skydiving or bungee jumping to disclaim liability for client injury even they are not going to be protected by that if it is demonstrated that they failed to take reasonable precautions, ensure their equipment was in good order, etc.  In a situation which should be inherently safe, such as having a photographer take pictures of your children, I think it rather unlikely that the courts would uphold an injury waiver when little Jimmy tripped over a cable you forgot to tape down [negligence] and injured himself because he pulled a light stand down on his head. 

As Gryph indicated above, a bond is of very limited benefit because it only covers a specific, pre-determined circumstance(s).  Insurance, both for equipment loss and liability is the only sensible course.  I pay $750 a year for mine, and have done for many years.  I have never made a claim against it, but I pay it happily each year because I know if something bad does happen, I have some support.  By all means, give it a try your way and let me know how it works out.


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## vintagesnaps

Let it go.

If it was just for fun for someone you know and trust then maybe (even then maybe not). Otherwise take time to develop skills and practice, and learn business aspects. Try American Society of Media Photographers - Homepage or PPA. You need experience with kids especially babies before getting paid for that type work as a pro.


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## Derrel

"What could possibly go wrong?"

Found this filed under, "Famous Last Words". But that quite was found on the interwebs, so I'm not sure if the attributions to the various people were genuine, or if they were made up.


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## table1349

tirediron said:


> loonatic45414 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A. If we thought of what could happen to us that day, we would never leave the house.
> 
> B. LLC - limited liability corporation.  Whatever happens, they cannot hold you personally liable, only the company.
> 
> C. People can and do often sign away their rights on contracts. Or they could choose not to contract you.
> 
> D. Of course get a lawyer.  We all make jokes about them, but they do have their purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> A  Quite possibly.
> 
> B.  Completely untrue.
> 
> C.  True, and absolutely true, but if you do some research, you will find that the courts frequently fail to uphold contracts where the client is asked to agree to unspecified perils or to accept negligent behaviour.
> 
> D.  Unfortunately, true.
> 
> First and foremost:  I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on television and I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, HOWEVER...  I have done my research, and I have had consultations with and advice from lawyers both in general practice and those specializing in contract and IP law.
> 
> People frequently incorrectly assume that because they've got a clause in their contract which states they are not liable for <situation> they are immune from litigation.  You can be sued by anyone for anything, and while it's reasonable for a company which conducts an inherently and overtly dangerous business such as skydiving or bungee jumping to disclaim liability for client injury even they are not going to be protected by that if it is demonstrated that they failed to take reasonable precautions, ensure their equipment was in good order, etc.  In a situation which should be inherently safe, such as having a photographer take pictures of your children, I think it rather unlikely that the courts would uphold an injury waiver when little Jimmy tripped over a cable you forgot to tape down [negligence] and injured himself because he pulled a light stand down on his head.
> 
> As Gryph indicated above, a bond is of very limited benefit because it only covers a specific, pre-determined circumstance(s).  Insurance, both for equipment loss and liability is the only sensible course.  I pay $750 a year for mine, and have done for many years.  I have never made a claim against it, but I pay it happily each year because I know if something bad does happen, I have some support.  By all means, give it a try your way and let me know how it works out.
Click to expand...

You may not be but this guy is. http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2...llc-to-avoid-personal-liability-in-a-lawsuit/

I thought you were staying at the Marriott these days or was that the Free Spirit Spheres.


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## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> [...I thought you were staying at the Marriott these days.


Who can afford the Marriott????


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## table1349

tirediron said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...I thought you were staying at the Marriott these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Who can afford the Marriott????
Click to expand...

I think the Free Spirit Spheres sounds more you speed.  The rate for the small sphere is 175CDN, which is what, about $10.50 US?


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