# Product photography and licensing



## gossamer (Aug 16, 2017)

Hi all,
I'm an amateur photographer with a D500 and a few nice lenses. I occasionally do photo shoots for money, but this time I'm working on pictures for a wholesale pet products company that involves a much more professional position than previous times. I need help with figuring out a fair arrangement for both the company and myself.

I wrote up a photo release/agreement that stipulates that they are effectively licensing the pictures for use on their website. They now tell me (while still negotiating the terms, without having yet taken any pictures) they wish to be able to use these same pictures in print and online ads and other promotional/marketing efforts.

How do *you* handle such a situation? Is it a percentage of the initial fee per placement? Do you have something simple you could share for your approach?

Would you license the initial picture at a price that makes them free to use it however they wish?

Is providing photo credit something I should care about? I don't think it's reasonable to expect my name next to every picture or even in a magazine. Perhaps on the website?

I wish to do whatever is easiest to make this happen, but don't want to get screwed either.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Aug 16, 2017)

You need to find out how to license usage - try American Society of Media Photographers - Homepage or look up PPA for info. on contracts, licensing, etc. etc.

Usually the contract would be for specific usage in a specific timeframe; it might be for a year, then further usage would extend it for example for another year.

Look at ads, you don't see photo credits; those usually are used to accompany articles in publications.

You mentioned releases, which are used to get permission to photograph someone or their property. Usually for editorial use like in newspapers a release isn't needed but may be requested by a publication; for retail use like on T shirts a release is needed; and for commercial use such as for advertising purposes a release is necessary.

The company seems to want a lot of usage so that needs to be covered in a contract and payment should cover all that. I think ASMP and other pro photographer websites have a link to a resource on how to determine pricing. You're getting paid for your time taking the photos, your ability, time you spent learning photography and practicing skills, etc. so that I think can make it challenging to figure out pricing for creative work. It varies regionally, depending on where you live.


----------



## KmH (Aug 16, 2017)

gossamer said:


> They now tell me (while still negotiating the terms, without having yet taken any pictures) they wish to be able to use these same pictures in print and online ads and other promotional/marketing efforts. That significantly raises the pricing of use licensing.
> 
> How do *you* handle such a situation? Is it a percentage of the initial fee per placement? Do you have something simple you could share for your approach?
> Back in the day I charged a % of the ad buy(s).
> ...


Get the pricing software Cradoc sells - fotoQuote Pro 6 - that has long been recommended by the ASMP.

Companies today use social media and photo sharing web sites to identify folks like you that have little or no experience in the world of commercial photography because they know they will likely get some nice images and highly favorable to them (not you) use licensing terms for pennies on the dollar.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 17, 2017)

I just spoke with them again, and they want the ability to do with the picture as they please. This includes allowing their clients (pet stores) to download the product images from the website, use them to create various promotional and marketing materials, 'Sell Sheets', ads. They also wish to be able to alter them for promotional purposes.

They didn't find me through social media, but referral from the web developer who is a colleague of ours.

I don't want to give away the store, but I also don't want to lose out on the deal.

Does anyone have any creative ideas for how to give the client enough for them to have a fixed set of costs, yet not have to come back to us every time a modification or additional use is necessary?

Would any professional photographer ever provide an open-ended, unlimited use license for a picture? Would it even be a license at that point, or just outright buying the picture itself?


----------



## vintagesnaps (Aug 17, 2017)

Sounds like they don't just want to use the photos, they want to allow third party usage (their clients). My instinct is - no, no, no. Or, they pay a lot. Because all those other companies want to use your photos, to promote their products, which helps them make money. That's even more usage than it first sounded like. I think you might need to license usage with every other company that wants to use your photos.

It seems like they're dangling money and you're about ready to take the bait, and yeah, one of these days you'll probably realize you let yourself get screwed with your pants on. Unless you take time to LEARN WHAT TO DO - go learn how to license usage and what payment and amount of usage would be appropriate, etc. etc. 

This is the type thing that happens and helps cause photographers to go out of business or not make enough money to even be worth it. That company doesn't seem to value your work, and you don't seem to value your work either. It's doing yourself a disservice to not look into how to do this and to get an appropriate value for your work.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Aug 17, 2017)

And they want to alter them?? They _should_ have to come back to you for further usage. Unless you get paid a heckuva lot for all this. They want the moon and the stars. And seem to be taking advantage of you not knowing anything about commercial photography.


----------



## KmH (Aug 17, 2017)

gossamer said:


> I just spoke with them again, and they want the ability to do with the picture as they please.


"No problem Mr. Customer.
Basically you are saying you want to buy my copyrights.
Once I make a photo my copyrights are good for the rest of my life *plus* 70 years after I die.
On that basis I put the value of my copyrights at $50,000 per image.
For you I will sell them at half price - $25,000 each.
How many of my image copyrights would you like to buy?"


----------



## fmw (Aug 21, 2017)

Welcome to commercial photography.  You bill for time, materials and expenses.  You turn the images over to the client who paid for them and now owns them.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 21, 2017)

fmw said:


> Welcome to commercial photography.  You bill for time, materials and expenses.  You turn the images over to the client who paid for them and now owns them.


Fred, are you disagreeing with those who say I should license my pictures, and instead just sell them to them for a reasonable price and move on?


----------



## fmw (Aug 21, 2017)

gossamer said:


> fmw said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to commercial photography.  You bill for time, materials and expenses.  You turn the images over to the client who paid for them and now owns them.
> ...



Yes, indeed.  Commercial photography isn't like wedding photography.  You don't sell images.  You sell time, materials and expenses.  The ad agency should know that.  They bill their services the same way.  I did work for every ad agency in our market.  Your plan won't work.  Doing custom photography for the ad agency's clients may work.  Just bill it like the rest of the agency's work.  The images you make belong to the clients.  That is how iut works.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 21, 2017)

Just to be clear, I'm working with a wholesale company directly, not an ad agency. There's no ad agency involved.

I really want to make this work - I don't much care about my name being associated with the images, and can't really expect the business to come to me every time one of their clients wants to use one of my images. 

The clients here are a wholesale pet products company. Their retailers also wish to use the same images. The wholesaler wishes to be able to give them free unlimited access to these images to market on their own websites. It's my understanding there are several dozens of these retailers.

They wish to be able to call upon me to do product shoots for three or four pictures at a time, and up to 100 at a time.

I'm fine with one price, if that's the way it should go in this industry, but I provide a local, service-oriented service unavailable elsewhere, and believe that should be part of the price.

Ideas for moving forward with this (sample license/sale agreements or pointers to suitable ones online) appreciated.


----------



## fmw (Aug 22, 2017)

gossamer said:


> Just to be clear, I'm working with a wholesale company directly, not an ad agency. There's no ad agency involved.
> 
> I really want to make this work - I don't much care about my name being associated with the images, and can't really expect the business to come to me every time one of their clients wants to use one of my images.
> 
> ...


Can't help you.  Sorry. The wholesaler simply wants an arrangement like they would get with any commercial photographer.,  No surprise there,  Goood luck.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 22, 2017)

> Can't help you.  Sorry. The wholesaler simply wants an arrangement like they would get with any commercial photographer.,  No surprise there,  Goood luck.


That's the part I'm trying to understand. I don't want to make it more complicated than it needs to be. I understood commercial photographers licensed their photos. Is that not correct? I've seen so many conflicting statements that I'm confused.


----------



## fmw (Aug 27, 2017)

gossamer said:


> > Can't help you.  Sorry. The wholesaler simply wants an arrangement like they would get with any commercial photographer.,  No surprise there,  Goood luck.
> 
> 
> That's the part I'm trying to understand. I don't want to make it more complicated than it needs to be. I understood commercial photographers licensed their photos. Is that not correct? I've seen so many conflicting statements that I'm confused.



Perhaps you need to define commercial photography.  Product shots need to belong to the client in my view.  My view angers some people, however.  I billed time, materials and expenses.  You can do whatever you like.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 27, 2017)

fmw said:


> gossamer said:
> 
> 
> > > Can't help you.  Sorry. The wholesaler simply wants an arrangement like they would get with any commercial photographer.,  No surprise there,  Goood luck.
> ...


How do you adjust your price to compensate for this, if at all? In other words, my client will be using these pictures in print and web ads, modifying them for promotions, and giving them away to their clients. The pictures could be in use for as long as they are selling that particular product.

I don't want to be involved with every little ad campaign they have, but I also don't want to sell the picture for $15 while they generate real business as a result of it.


----------



## fmw (Aug 27, 2017)

gossamer said:


> fmw said:
> 
> 
> > gossamer said:
> ...


 
I don't understand why I am not being clear.  I didn't sell images.  That is what portrait, stock and wedding photographers do.  I sold photographic services.  I did the job, billed my time, materials and expenses and turned the images (usually color trasparencies in medium and large format) over to the client.  I went on to the next shoot.  I shot products, factories, offices, executive portraits, fashion or whatever a commercial client needed.  My images showed up in annual reports, catalogs, magazines, newsletters etc.  I turned over the best transparencies to the client never to see them again.  What they did with them was up to them.  The only images I have from those shoots are the ones that weren't good enough to present to the client.  I have some shots of hot casting machines and buildings under construction.  Let me know if you want to buy one.    Hope that helps you understand.

There may be photographers somewhere who would shoot products and then license them for a single use but that wouldn't have worked with my corporate clients.  Perhaps times have changed.  I did a lot of business with fortune 500 companies.  I can assure you they tell the photographer how it is going to work.

Your best bet is to shoot the products, bill for what you did and say goodbye to the images.  Make sure your hourly rate is adequate and all will be well.  The wedding and portrait photographers that frequent this forum hate this concept but, in my day, that is how it worked with commercial customers and probably how it still works.


----------



## gossamer (Aug 27, 2017)

> I don't understand why I am not being clear.  I didn't sell images.  That is what portrait, stock and wedding photographers do.  I sold photographic services.  I did the job, billed my time, materials and expenses and turned the images (usually color trasparencies in medium and large format) over to the client.  I went on to the next shoot.  I shot products, factories, offices, executive portraits, fashion or whatever a commercial client needed.  My images showed up in annual reports, catalogs, magazines, newsletters etc.  I turned over the best transparencies to the client never to see them again.  What they did with them was up to them.  The only images I have from those shoots are the ones that weren't good enough to present to the client.  I have some shots of hot casting machines and buildings under construction.  Let me know if you want to buy one.    Hope that helps you understand.
> 
> There may be photographers somewhere who would shoot products and then license them for a single use but that wouldn't have worked with my corporate clients.  Perhaps times have changed.  I did a lot of business with fortune 500 companies.  I can assure you they tell the photographer how it is going to work.
> 
> Your best bet is to shoot the products, bill for what you did and say goodbye to the images.  Make sure your hourly rate is adequate and all will be well.  The wedding and portrait photographers that frequent this forum hate this concept but, in my day, that is how it worked with commercial customers and probably how it still works.


Okay, now I understand. Thanks for being so patient with me.
Do/did you have any sort of agreement, or just an invoice with your hours? Any indemnification? Liability disclosure? Copyright, stating that they authorize you to take those pictures?


----------



## fmw (Aug 28, 2017)

gossamer said:


> > I don't understand why I am not being clear.  I didn't sell images.  That is what portrait, stock and wedding photographers do.  I sold photographic services.  I did the job, billed my time, materials and expenses and turned the images (usually color trasparencies in medium and large format) over to the client.  I went on to the next shoot.  I shot products, factories, offices, executive portraits, fashion or whatever a commercial client needed.  My images showed up in annual reports, catalogs, magazines, newsletters etc.  I turned over the best transparencies to the client never to see them again.  What they did with them was up to them.  The only images I have from those shoots are the ones that weren't good enough to present to the client.  I have some shots of hot casting machines and buildings under construction.  Let me know if you want to buy one.    Hope that helps you understand.
> >
> > There may be photographers somewhere who would shoot products and then license them for a single use but that wouldn't have worked with my corporate clients.  Perhaps times have changed.  I did a lot of business with fortune 500 companies.  I can assure you they tell the photographer how it is going to work.
> >
> ...



Nope.  Just a handshake and an invoice.


----------

