# Help please from the Pros - Where did I go wrong?



## ottor (Apr 26, 2009)

Here's what I had this weekend - Soccer match - here's the good news - *79 teams - 15 fields - 2 days*. Attendence from 5 surrounding States - about 850 kids !! ... I had my trailer lined up with the concessions - plenty of kids and proud parents walking around.. Remember this as we go - prices.. 4x6 $3.50, 5x7 $4.50, 8X10 $11.50; 11x14 $14.75. Package of 8x10 team photo, 2 5x7, and 4 wallet size for $22.95. First, I didn't sell one single 'package'. All I got was parents coming up asking if I'd shoot their kid, #14 on the Amazon Team at the 11:30 game? Of course.. I'd walk over to field 2 and shoot #14 for about 10-15 minutes.. I'd get a call from the trailer to shoot #7 on field 12.. Off I'd go to field 12, and shoot for 15 minutes.. Walked back to the trailer and gave the mem card to my Dau-in-law who suprised me with her prowess with the computer!! She had all divisions broke down by ages and teams... she'd d/l the card to the various teams while took another card and went to another request for a shoot... She stayed with the trailer and took any orders and talked with the customers.. I had a display of photos I've taken in the past and that actually generated quite a lot of interest from those walking by.. 15 fields all next to another is quite a sight - was a farmers field that the City bought and developed into a soccer complex.. I finally obtained one of the donated 4 wheelers to make it a little easier, but it was quite the rush, getting to the requested kids, on the requested fields (15)!! - Sounds like it could be profitable, huh? - Possibilities were certainly there.... Plenty of cards given out for later posts to the website where they can purchase other pics later. . (hopefully this will pan out - at least there was lots of interest..) - heres' the bad part.. *I netted $191.00 for the weekend*. Of the ones that came back to the trailer after we downloaded and culled the bad ones out, the largest sale was $29.25. I had some purchase only a $3.50 4x6. I printed out the ones that wanted only 1 8x10, and took the payments from the rest of them now, to order at my cost tomorrow and have shipped directly to their home... What happened to this 'opportunity'? - What did I do wrong? - I 'did' see better camera setups than I had by some of the parents, and I expected that... Of the shots that I sold, the parents were in love with them - but - just not that many actual buyers.. I know that my prices were pretty cheap, so I don't think that deterred buyers.. Here's some of the shots I was selling.. 
















I'm 62 yrs old, and I can't run around 15 soccer fields for 2 days!! OK, got the 4 wheeler to make it easier but I'm exhausted !! Hopefully, after I download the rest of the photos on my website rottophotography.com, there will be more sales, but - I know that as time passes, the less likely they'll be visiting the internet for pictures.. So I have to hurry to get them up.. 

Any help here? 

Thanks,


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## Many Hats (Apr 26, 2009)

Sorry so late a post, but hope it helps.  I just did my first soccer tournament without the benefit of on-site printing.  Gave out cards for each game with how to view on-line with each game password protected.  3days...25 games....sales...$45.  one mom called me to ask about specials as she liked several action shots of her daugher, but at $7 each 5x7, thought that was too much.  Crazy!


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## KmH (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh yes sir. I'd be delighted to make images of your kid playing soccer. That will be $75.00 in advance and includes a $25.00 print credit. Please see the cashier and she will make sure I have a time slot available and you can pay her with a credit card or cash. Next.


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## Many Hats (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh don't I wish all understood


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## KmH (Apr 26, 2009)

Many Hats said:


> Oh don't I wish all understood


Sing it brother.  

The one that gets me is when a league wants a kickback for granting permission to shoot their league.


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## ottor (Apr 27, 2009)

So help me understand... was the problem "Soccer" - or was it the entire idea of mobile event photography in that kind of activity.. (Littile league, football, or even Motocross, where I have a big shoot on Memorial Day)

This was my first attempt - ever, at something like this, and I consider it a learning experience, but what I learned is that I dont' want go through the expense and time, for such little benefit, when I retire.. EVERYBODY told me that all those proud parents would purchase tons of pictures of their kids, and although I didn't share their enthusiam to that degree, I didnt' expect to bomb like this - at a venue that had this kind of possibility. I can tell you that if I charged a $75 fee just to shoot their kid, I'd have saved a lot of shoe leather.. I wouldn't have paid for my gas to get there..

How does someone make a modest living taking pictures like this? - or, do you?

thanks for the help on this...


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## mrodgers (Apr 27, 2009)

Ever think it's quite possible that people actually know what it costs to get an 8x10 printed? They can take their own pictures and have 5 8x10s printed for that cost, and people know that. I knew that before I had gotten into the photography hobby for myself.

That's what I think would happen with something like this. Everyone has a camera, they don't need to purchase an 8x10 for $11.50 when they can do it themselves for $1.99.

I often thought about doing this myself with the little league games around here, but I doubted that I could sell anything.  They hire someone at the end of the season for team photos, but during the games (which would be much better "action" photos such as yours above) I wouldn't think people would buy in today's camera world.


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## ottor (Apr 27, 2009)

like I said ... there were parents there with equipment that I'd die to have.. But - these are parents that pay $450 to get their kids on a team, and travel 2 States away for tournaments... They probably take better pictures than I do, and share with other parents on the team for nothing..

Pehaps I better think about taking photos of family members, and enjoy my retirement without running my azz off all weekend for literally nothing.. 

We'll see - it'll be interesting how this Motocross shoot comes out. Well have 2500 riders coming in - I have sole track access.... Mabie I can even sell some $1.99 8x10's...


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## Blank (Apr 27, 2009)

I think I replied to your MX opportunity a little while ago and how I declined to set up onsite. It just didnt add up to run your ass off all day long. You can build anticipation for viewing by handing out cards and make all images available in 3-4 days.
The only field sports I do are baseball, because parents don't know how to shoot through chain link, or dont have long enough lens' from the outfield.
Parents have full capabilities on the sideline as any photographer making a living. It's tough, but the ancient mystery of professional photography is slowly dying thanks to affordable mid range dslr's and the internet.
I stick to motosports. I dont have parents and spectators walking tracks or having access to the inner field of short track oval racing. You should have more success at the MX.


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## Guido44 (Apr 27, 2009)

This is something that I would like to get more into myself. I admire your effort. I had modest success this season with my son's basketball team. 



> They hire someone at the end of the season for team photos


I think this is your best chance to make a profit. I'm only saying that based on what I've seen other photographers doing. If you shoot photos at several games, then you can offer them action photos, a still, and a team photo. Just a thought.

You may also have better success if you have a prearranged contract with the league. Yes, I sucks to think you would have to give a % back to the teams, but I wonder if there isn't an expectation from the coaches that a you are going to "donate" back to the league. 

If you do, make a sign that says "10% of the proceeds are donated back to the league". I'd put it on any fliers you hand out as well.

I'd like to hear an experienced professionals' opinion on this myself.

JMO

dan


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## Overread (Apr 27, 2009)

What you have to understand is that its not a print you are selling - anyone can print a photo at $1.88 from a good online printing lab - what you are doing is capturing a moment - that one shot of their son kicking the ball into the net - the shot of their son diving for that game winning goal block etc...
That is the image you are selling and you are selling not just a blurry shot, but a clear sharp one - even with the latest gear  being easily affordable for many (compared to how it was) there is still skill in photography that a more experienced shooter will have that a novice won't = even if said novice has all the "right" gear.
Team shots at the end as well as trying to get some offical position are also key parts I think and can give you a minium takings from a day as well


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## Big Mike (Apr 27, 2009)

I think you have a good idea good for you for carrying it out.  However, there are plenty of good ideas that aren't as successful as we would like them to be.  

I think that part of the problem is marketing.  I'm guessing that most players and parents had no idea of your service until they saw your trailer on-site or maybe got handed a card etc.  Maybe some sort of marketing campaign before hand or during the event...but that eats into you bottom line.  

As for the pricing...I think your prices are too low to make a real profit.  Will you have even lower sales if you raise the prices?  Maybe.  But remember that if you double your prices, you only have to do half as much work for the same revenue.  
Another thing to consider is that your price may be directly tied to the amount of respect that people give you...if only on a subconscious level.  I heard and give this advice to wedding photographers all the time...Raise your Prices.  
Of course, it's a fine balance and if it was easy to figure out...we would all be rich.  

I see a problem in the plan, in that you wait for a request to shoot a particular subject, then go to shoot the during their game.  It's not hard to figure out that if things went well, you would quickly run out of time.

I agree with the poster who mentioned that there is probably more money to be made by shooting team & individual portraits.  This is more of a 'captive audience'...especially if part of the tournament itinerary is to have the whole team stop by for a group photo. 

I still think you have a good idea but I still think that it might help to have an on-line ordering option, so that players could check out the photos on their own time and hopefully buy prints.  Having said that, you might be fighting a loosing battle...I'm sure you're not the first person to think of this but there doesn't seem to be a lot of photographers doing it...which might be a clue.


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## fast1 (Apr 27, 2009)

thats some really good points there.


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## ottor (Apr 27, 2009)

Big Mike said:


> As for the pricing...I think your prices are too low to make a real profit. Will you have even lower sales if you raise the prices? Maybe. But remember that if you double your prices, you only have to do half as much work for the same revenue.
> 
> 
> I still think you have a good idea but I still think that it might help to have an on-line ordering option, so that players could check out the photos on their own time and hopefully buy prints. Having said that, you might be fighting a loosing battle...


 
I understood that my prices were 'low', but I was counting on the fact that there were 850 kids there, and I priced for every budget.. I think you're right, and should probably revisit that for larger venues.. I do also have an online purchase option with my website... all I need to do now is go through about 2300 shots to see which ones would be marketable, and get them uploaded... losts of cards/flyers given out with my website on them, and noted that the majority of pictures would be available in a couple of days for online purchase.

I did take the team photos for the awards presentations, but ... so did all of the other parents standing right behind me... Who'd buy one from me, if Mom got the same shot?

I'm gonna do the motorcross and see just how different it will be... The process will be totally different, as I won't be doing much running around.. (I can stand still and theyll come to me - several times!!)

I appreciate all the input - and take your advice seriously...


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## gsgary (Apr 27, 2009)

I do this sort of thing in the UK, first off you need to get the shots better in camera so there is hardly any editing they need to be cropped tighter in camera,sharper, and peak action shots which i don't see in the 3 shots you posted. There needs to be a wow factor 
This is from my last event i know it's not football (staight out of camera)





Did you cover this event on your own ? I would say it needed 5 photographers minimum


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## Christie Photo (Apr 28, 2009)

Well...  like Overread said, "its not a print you are selling... (it) is the image you are selling..."

Based on the images you posted here, you didn't have anything special to offer.  I think you realize this.  You asked, "Who'd buy one from me, if Mom got the same shot?"  If this approach is going to work, you'll have to offer work that's NOT the same as Mom's.

Good luck with the motorcross gig.

 Pete


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## ottor (Apr 28, 2009)

I probably do have some spectacular shots, but like I said, I shot over 2300 photos in the last 2 days and have to go through them and see.. One of the problems I had was I was alone and could only spend 10-15 minutes at that game to get photos before moving to the next one.. Mom wanted her son #18 with some action shots, but little #18 never got the ball, or I had only a couple of chances to shoot when it did get to him... when that happened, he could have been on the other end of the field. I wish I had 5 photographers, but - alas, it was just me. I agree that I'm not a professional award winning sports photographer, but I also think that I'm a better photographer with better equipment than 90% of the adults there. (Those 10% don't need me anyway..) I'm my biggest and harshest critic - and I realize I need to improve, and obtain better lens's - but the majority of these folks werent' photo critics, they are soccer moms that can't get these shots with their disposables. I honestly believe there was a real good market here - I don't think I handled the marketing the best I could. I originally kinna' scoffed at KmH when he said, "Give me $75 and I'll shoot your kid", but the more I think about that, the more I think he's right! (Perhaps not $75, this is a small Idaho town..) But - I did spend some valuable time shooting kids and never saw the parents later that day - if they'd made a financial commitment BEFORE I went out, I'd almost ensure more sales. Like I said - this was quite a learning experience, and I DID learn... Not only from my weekend, but from you folks here also.. BTW gsgary, a beautiful dog shot!! Hopefully I can take shots like that in the future - I love photography, and really want to use that after I retire this August.. Just need to practice techniques, and get better 'business' ideas... I'm a willing and quick learner..

thanks,


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## skieur (Apr 28, 2009)

Christie Photo said:


> Well...  like Overread said, "its not a print you are selling... (it) is the image you are selling..."
> 
> Based on the images you posted here, you didn't have anything special to offer.  I think you realize this.  You asked, "Who'd buy one from me, if Mom got the same shot?"  If this approach is going to work, you'll have to offer work that's NOT the same as Mom's.
> 
> ...



I agree with Pete.  In some respects the challenge was extremely difficult.
As one person suggested, more than one photographer is necessary.  Moreover to get the best shots, location, fast zoom lenses and a good fps speed on the camera are helpful.

Even with that, it is hard to get the eyes in a soccer shot and that is what really adds to any sports shot.  You did not present any shots around the goal, either.  Composing a great sports shot in a fraction of a second is not an instantly learned skill irrespective of technical issues.

I tend to take a different approach to sports events and it is not a main activity for me.  I cover a sports event as more a photojouralist, paid by an organization such as perhaps a local paper, school board, athletic association etc.  Public relations use is also the end result of some of my photos.  If parents approach and want shots too, it is just icing on the cake, but I am still being paid, no matter what.

skieur


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## gsgary (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> I probably do have some spectacular shots, but like I said, I shot over 2300 photos in the last 2 days and have to go through them and see.. One of the problems I had was I was alone and could only spend 10-15 minutes at that game to get photos before moving to the next one.. Mom wanted her son #18 with some action shots, but little #18 never got the ball, or I had only a couple of chances to shoot when it did get to him... when that happened, he could have been on the other end of the field. I wish I had 5 photographers, but - alas, it was just me. I agree that I'm not a professional award winning sports photographer, but I also think that I'm a better photographer with better equipment than 90% of the adults there. (Those 10% don't need me anyway..) I'm my biggest and harshest critic - and I realize I need to improve, and obtain better lens's - but the majority of these folks werent' photo critics, they are soccer moms that can't get these shots with their disposables. I honestly believe there was a real good market here - I don't think I handled the marketing the best I could. I originally kinna' scoffed at KmH when he said, "Give me $75 and I'll shoot your kid", but the more I think about that, the more I think he's right! (Perhaps not $75, this is a small Idaho town..) But - I did spend some valuable time shooting kids and never saw the parents later that day - if they'd made a financial commitment BEFORE I went out, I'd almost ensure more sales. Like I said - this was quite a learning experience, and I DID learn... Not only from my weekend, but from you folks here also.. BTW gsgary, a beautiful dog shot!! Hopefully I can take shots like that in the future - I love photography, and really want to use that after I retire this August.. Just need to practice techniques, and get better 'business' ideas... I'm a willing and quick learner..
> 
> thanks,


 

What equipment are you using ? the dog shot was with a 5D and 300mmF2.8L ISO3200, F3.2, 1/640, i used the 5D instead of my 1D because it's better at handling the noise


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## ottor (Apr 28, 2009)

Used a Canon 450D with a 75-300 f/4 5.6 zoom... Certainly not the best, but all I have right now.. Already primed the wife for another purchase in the near future.. 

Any suggestions in the $6-700 price range for this type of photography?


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## Overread (Apr 28, 2009)

I would look into one of the 70-200mm L lens options (f4 or f2.8). I can't mention which one would best fit your budget as I don't know the american price market - also consider maybe going for a higher level model second hand as L lenses tend to retiain their quality (though they also keep a good part of their price second hand as well)


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## ottor (Apr 28, 2009)

Don't mean to turn this into a 'lens discussion', but it's relavent to what I'm doing.. I was lookiing at the Tamron 18-270 3.5-6.3 VC - it's supposed to be equivalent to a 28-410mm.. I need something that will get completely across the field that wont' break my bank acct - I think the Tamron is about $7-800 american and that's pushing it right now, but I've heard good things about it.. ?? I'm not opposed to 2nd hand either.. :mrgreen:

Also - what do you think about me providing a percentage of sales back to the Mx Track for some advance - and trackside publicity?

tks,


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## gsgary (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> Used a Canon 450D with a 75-300 f/4 5.6 zoom... Certainly not the best, but all I have right now.. Already primed the wife for another purchase in the near future..
> 
> Any suggestions in the $6-700 price range for this type of photography?


 

I would keep saving because i don't think your budget will get you a 70-200F2.8L you don't need the IS model for this type of shooting, look for secondhand top quality L lenses, a 300mmF2.8L is perfect for this or maybe a Sigma 120-300F2.8


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## gsgary (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> Don't mean to turn this into a 'lens discussion', but it's relavent to what I'm doing.. I was lookiing at the Tamron 18-270 3.5-6.3 VC - it's supposed to be equivalent to a 28-410mm.. I need something that will get completely across the field that wont' break my bank acct - I think the Tamron is about $7-800 american and that's pushing it right now, but I've heard good things about it.. ?? I'm not opposed to 2nd hand either.. :mrgreen:
> 
> Also - what do you think about me providing a percentage of sales back to the Mx Track for some advance - and trackside publicity?
> 
> tks,


 

Don't even go there that lens is worse than the one you have, no good for sports you need F2.8 the Tamron 70-200F2.8 is good


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## gsgary (Apr 28, 2009)

If you need help with shooting MX give me a shout


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## Overread (Apr 28, 2009)

This test here: Juza Nature Photography
would be worth looking at as it compares the canon, sigma and Tamron 70-200mm lenses


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## ottor (Apr 28, 2009)

Just got home for lunch and there was a msg from the tournament director wondering where all the pictures were - he's getting EMails from several people who want to see them..........  I have a *ton* of 5-9meg files to upload and last night it took 15 minutes for 10 pics (DSL) (Smugmug) - is there a way I can reduce these files to a managable size for uploading (Batch process preferrably) and what file size would be good if they wanted to buy a 11x14 at the maximum .. ?         

Thank God I have plenty of Blood Pressure pills !!!    :lmao:


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## Overread (Apr 28, 2009)

you could try transfering the data to a memory stick or in a pinch use a camera memory card and cardreader (don't use the camera). And then take the setup to a cybercafe - they are likley to have a fast connection that you could use to upload your data to the net. 
otherwise edit the files - click upload - go to bed and leave your computer on (and say a short prayer/wish that nothing goes wrong whilst you sleep


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## KmH (Apr 28, 2009)

You don't want or need to upload files that big. You can get free software that will batch resize and watermark. Resize and watermark them to 400x600 and then upload.

www.FastStone.org

As far as 11x14, how are you doing order fulfillment?


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## gsgary (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> Just got home for lunch and there was a msg from the tournament director wondering where all the pictures were - he's getting EMails from several people who want to see them.......... I have a *ton* of 5-9meg files to upload and last night it took 15 minutes for 10 pics (DSL) (Smugmug) - is there a way I can reduce these files to a managable size for uploading (Batch process preferrably) and what file size would be good if they wanted to buy a 11x14 at the maximum .. ?
> 
> Thank God I have plenty of Blood Pressure pills !!! :lmao:


 

This is a great free program size them to 600x800 and they will soon load up 
FastStone Photo Resizer - Powerful Image Converter/Resizer


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## Christie Photo (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> ...what file size would be good if they wanted to buy a 11x14 at the maximum .. ?



ummm....  are you uploading files for printing, or just for the buyers to preview?

 Pete


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## ottor (Apr 28, 2009)

Uploading to my website, managed by Smugmug, for ordering and for them to have Bay Photo print and distribute.. That FastStone program looks exactly like what I'm looking for - THANKS!! I dont' think anyone would be ordering anything large than 11x14 but just want to cover my bases .. . Can't imagine I'd need any more than a 240 max DPI, do you?


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## KmH (Apr 28, 2009)

ottor said:


> Uploading to my website, managed by Smugmug, for ordering and for them to have Bay Photo print and distribute.. That FastStone program looks exactly like what I'm looking for - THANKS!! I dont' think anyone would be ordering anything large than 11x14 but just want to cover my bases .. . Can't imagine I'd need any more than a 240 max DPI, do you?


For online there is no DPI (and its PPI for photos). PPI is only for printing. Bay Photo has professional printing software that will take care of the PPI of any prints ordered.

Have you considered the differing aspect ratios of prints? 2:3 (4x6, 6x9, 10x15) , 5:7 (5x7, and wallets), 4:5 (8x10)?


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## Many Hats (Apr 29, 2009)

As I said, I had the same results at a tournament with 3 photogs and a booth set up with info.  Now I'm going back to my original plan which seems to be working.  I shoot end of the year team and individual pix.  THEN I offer set up action shots if they want.  Going well so far.  Have kids run drills and you get a shot of each one with the ball and no other kids in background which could present model release problems.  Yes it's staged, but so far the parents don't give a hoot.  They want good pix they can't take themselves.  Could do the same thing with all sports.  Staged live action.
Good luck!
Laura


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## gravity0 (Apr 29, 2009)

gsgary said:


> I do this sort of thing in the UK, first off you need to get the shots better in camera so there is hardly any editing they need to be cropped tighter in camera,sharper, and peak action shots which i don't see in the 3 shots you posted. There needs to be a wow factor
> This is from my last event i know it's not football (staight out of camera)
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wow, great pic, I love this.


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## smn_xps (Apr 29, 2009)

So let me tell you what I did and observed...

my son swims in age-group swimming (not unlike youth soccer) and he qualified for a large invitational meet at the university of minnesota. I expected to be stuck in the bleachers and not get to shoot but took my camera anyway. (BTW I am very much a beginner, bought a canon xsi to shoot my kids events at christmas) Well the coach sees me in the stands and waves me over to the coaches entrance where she met me with a deck pass for caoches so i got to go and shoot. 500+ frames of my son and his teammates. 

on my way through the venue i see a photo service which is offering to shoot your kid and make an 8x10 collage with 2, 3 or 4  photos for $30, $40 or $50 pay in advance, refund if no usable shots are taken. they had two shooters literally running for two days to fill the appoitnments that sold. 

so i get home and had a number of good shots of all the kids except my son (figures) and so i made a set of collages for the teammates like this one of my son:






I GAVE them to the other parents along with some $.15 4x6s of their kids. the box on the lower left includes each kids events times and awards. the background is a shot of the pool taken from the far corner. 

the one parent who bought shots of her kids for $40 each told me that mine were just as good but they had fancier graphics/backgrounds. 

this seems to match what some other posters here said. specifically give them something they cannot do for themselves!

so you could go their route, parents pay for the shoot in advance and you mail the product the next week. It might work for you. at least when you are running you are being paid (provided you get the shot!)

good luck
jerry


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## mrsifuentes (Apr 29, 2009)

Hey Ottar. Why don't you just set up the shoots? Get 3-5 soccer players to come for the weekend and do some sports editorial style shoots, like the ones you see in sports magazines. Might work out better than a live game. Plus you can take your time setting up some cool shoots. Just my 2 cents.


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