# I'm not advertising....



## wyogirl (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm not advertising my "photography business" but I'm getting calls.  I use the term business loosely because its really a hobby that I am trying to improve upon.  I do have a legit business license and such but that is more for my own peace of mind.  The last thing I need is some kind of legal trouble for shooting on the side.  Anyway... there is a point here and I'm getting to it.

Right now, because I'm learning and because I'm starting my portfolio building I don't charge to shoot, I only charge for the images if the person decides they like them enough to buy them.  Which, more often than not, people do buy.  Any call I get, I explain my situation, tell them that I'm portfolio building so I don't charge for time, give them a price list and explain that in the future those prices are subject to increase when I am finished portfolio building.  I direct everyone that calls to my website so they can get an idea of my skill level.  I require everyone to sign a model release as well as a basic contract for the shoot that essentially says "hey, they may all suck, I guarantee nothing" (not those words exactly).   And I NEVER take a job that is a once in a lifetime no do-overs kind of shoot.

Is this a reasonable way to proceed if my only aspirations are to get better at shooting and maybe be semi-pro someday?  I may never actually go pro, in fact I'm sure it will never be my main source of income.  Is there anything wrong with proceeding in this manner?


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## Designer (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm no pro, but your approach seems reasonable to me.


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## KmH (Sep 11, 2013)

You're shooting yourself in the foot.
Your time and talent is way more valuable than prints are.
Loss-leader pricing doesn't work for small, part-time, self-employed businesses.
Maybe 1 in 5000 new retail photography start-ups can make loss-leader pricing work when the business owner has solid business fundamentals knowledge and the financial means to do so.

One of the hardest things a business can attempt to do is raise prices.

What will basically happen when you start charging enough to actually make money is you will essentially abandon those using your service now as you portfolio build.



> "Hi Wendy. Didn't you have a photographer take some pictures for you 6 months ago."
> 
> "Yes, I did Samantha.
> Wyogirl made those photos for me, but she was just porfolio building then and didn't charge very much.
> ...



Keeping existing customers is 20 times cheaper in advertising, promotional costs, and effort than developing new customers.


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## tirediron (Sep 11, 2013)

Sage advice!!!  ^^^


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## wyogirl (Sep 13, 2013)

@KmH.... I get what you are saying, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but how would you go about this?  I think that situation is inevitable because I don't feel like I am good enough to charge as much as other, better photographers in my area, at least not yet.  I've gotten feedback here on TPF that tells me I have things to  learn.  I feel like I have to learn somehow, and I am taking classes from one of the best photographers here, but I need people to practice on.  At the same time, I'm a student so shouldn't I be charging less than a true professional?  I mean, you do get what you pay for right?


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Sep 13, 2013)

KmH said:


> You're shooting yourself in the foot.
> Your time and talent is way more valuable than prints are.
> Loss-leader pricing doesn't work for small, part-time, self-employed businesses.
> Maybe 1 in 5000 new retail photography start-ups can make loss-leader pricing work when the business owner has solid business fundamentals knowledge and the financial means to do so.
> ...



So should nobody ever raise their prices? Or should they start high?

What's your recommendation?


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## manicmike (Sep 13, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > You're shooting yourself in the foot.
> ...



Also would like your recommendation.


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## KmH (Sep 13, 2013)

There is a huge difference between an incremental price increase that accounts for the fact that the price of the goods and services a business has to buy to operate continually goes up, and going from not charging a sitting fee and full retail print prices to suddenly charging $100 per 1 hour session and pricing prints to cover CODB and COGS + profit.

You should start your pricing at or somewhat above the low end of the market you are in.

What many miss is doing the research need to know what market you are in.
The vast majority of new self employed business fail because the business owner had no business and marketing plan.

If a local market is being served by existing businesses that are well established, you're trying to swim up stream in a strong current if you try to enter the same market.
That's why it is so often stressed that you need to identify a niche in the market that is not being served.
That way you have no competition.

I have often recommended that the way to charge during the portfolio building phase is to advertise/promote a portfolio building discount.
Customer invoices show full retail pricing and then the portfolio building discount.

That way people know what the photographer will be charging once portfolio building is done.
1 hour photography session - ....... $100
Portfolio building discount 30% off..- $30
---------------------------------------- 
Total...........................................$70


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## vintagesnaps (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm not sure what you meant by semipro or pro, but even if it's a sideline or parttime, if you're charging that seems to put you in business. 

 I'd set prices within a range that is the going rate for your area, maybe at a midway point because realistically you might not yet be able to charge what the top photographers in your area charge, but I don't think it's a good idea to undervalue your work either. You can find guidelines for pricing on sites like ASMP's. 

I think if you offer photos for next to nothing that seems to show people that you're not a professional photographer as much as somebody with a camera who they can get to take pictures for free or cheap. The quality of your photos probably needs to be competitive with what you see in your area (websites of working photographers where you live). If you're going to charge for your photos you'd probably need to be looking into what's involved in being in business in your state.

How many photos do you need for a portfolio? You can add and/or replace current photos as you go, but you probably won't need all that many to show/display at any one time. It sounds like you need practice as much as anything; if you want to make money with your photography I think it takes time to build a reputation and a business. 

Are there any possibilities for finding models in your area besides friends/relatives? any art schools or programs that might use student models for art classes and might be a resource for you? Are there any community art centers in your area that have workshops or programs in photography? if you go to their events you might start networking and find some resources in your community.


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## Steve5D (Sep 13, 2013)

KmH said:


> One of the hardest things a business can attempt to do is raise prices.



A caveat, along these same lines, is that if you go too long without a price increase, you can't raise your prices.

When I first retired from the Navy in 2001, I went to work building travel guitars for this guy who ran a small shop. He's a brilliant luthier, but an absolutely horrible businessman. He absolutely refused to raise prices as the guitars got more popular. They were solid wood and handmade right here in the good ol' US of A. It would've been easy to raise prices. He wouldn't do it. Now, 12 years after I left that company, he's selling them for the exact same price we sold them for in 2001. He tried raising the price once but, because he didn't believe in incremental increases, he tried to jack the prices up by almost 30% in one fell swoop. His orders evaporated. What he's selling now, for $218.00 (which was the 2001 price), is something that he should be selling for $279.00. The market would've supported that, had the increases been done over time.

He's shot himself in the foot, and he can't stop the bleeding...


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## manicmike (Sep 13, 2013)

KmH said:


> There is a huge difference between an incremental price increase that accounts for the fact that the price of the goods and services a business has to buy to operate continually goes up, and going from not charging a sitting fee and full retail print prices to suddenly charging $100 per 1 hour session and pricing prints to cover CODB and COGS + profit.
> 
> You should start your pricing at or somewhat above the low end of the market you are in.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That sounds like a good way to do it.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks Keith .


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## wyogirl (Sep 14, 2013)

lots to consider... thanks everyone!


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## 12sndsgood (Sep 15, 2013)

I somewhat went with Keith's approach.  When my website went live I had full prices listed. Everyone new what I charged.  But then I would run portfolio building sales  half off the session fee.  And then for those people that have taken advantage of that I told them if they can go out and help support my business. Telling friends and family about me etc. I would photo them again at the discounted rate as long as they are bringing people in the doors.


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## DiskoJoe (Sep 24, 2013)

wyogirl said:


> @KmH.... I get what you are saying, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but how would you go about this?  I think that situation is inevitable because I don't feel like I am good enough to charge as much as other, better photographers in my area, at least not yet.  I've gotten feedback here on TPF that tells me I have things to  learn.  I feel like I have to learn somehow, and I am taking classes from one of the best photographers here, but I need people to practice on.  At the same time, I'm a student so shouldn't I be charging less than a true professional?  I mean, you do get what you pay for right?



Charge money for your services.


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## DiskoJoe (Sep 24, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> I somewhat went with Keith's approach.  When my website went live I had full prices listed. Everyone new what I charged.  But then I would run portfolio building sales  half off the session fee.  And then for those people that have taken advantage of that I told them if they can go out and help support my business. Telling friends and family about me etc. I would photo them again at the discounted rate as long as they are bringing people in the doors.



I tried that with friends and it did not work out at all. My friends suck, not a single referral and they all say they loved the photos.


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