# Abraham Lincoln



## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Abraham Lincoln Cityscape Portrait; Canon SX60HS


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

keep practicing.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> keep practicing.



Is it that bad?


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Didereaux said:
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> > keep practicing.
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I didn't and don't mean this in any bad or mean way, but yeah it is not the best.   Helluva good idea though.   Way too busy for the idea to show through.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> jcdeboever said:
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Ok. It wasn't favorable as the sun was at my back and washing out the zoom in of AL. Everytime I post something, it ain't right... About ready to go back to painting. I don't even know what's good anymore.


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Didereaux said:
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don't be so hard on yourself.  You are seeing the pictures, it's just technique, and circumstances that are doing the thwarting right now.  If it were easy your Bresson quote in your sig would never have been made.  Did you just pick up a paint brush and produce a good painting the first hundred times or so?   No, stick with it, find the technique and niche that fits you then perfect it , You cannot be a jack of all things in photography and produce works of art that are not accidental.


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## Dean_Gretsch (Nov 22, 2016)

I agree with the above. If you love photography, you wouldn't be happy if you gave it up. We all need constructive criticism if we expect to continue growing, even if it is subjective or personal preference.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Whatever, it needs to be looked at.... It's not a bird. Sometimes there is a lot of thought put into something. The story is there.

I am no pro photographer for sure. This site is just into crushing people's vision and it is known for that.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> I agree with the above. If you love photography, you wouldn't be happy if you gave it up. We all need constructive criticism if we expect to continue growing, even if it is subjective or personal preference.


Well, what needs to be improved? Is it that you just don't like the image? I am looking to improve, not just reading, keep practicing. Bullshit. So people can critique but the artist can't give his disappointed feedback? What does it lack, where can it improve, how could you go after it better... Demeaning or open ended comments are not advantageous for people to improve, they make people feel lost. It is serious, people have individual ideas, thoughts, and expressions. To dismiss them as being sensitive while they offer no concrete advancement is suspect. This site is full of crap most of the time. There are some amateurs that are working their ass off to get better...


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## Dean_Gretsch (Nov 22, 2016)

I didn't offer any opinion on the photo itself. I was just offering my hope that you weren't seriously considering quitting. I don't even consider myself to be good enough to be called an amateur, so I don't know why my opinion would even matter.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> I didn't offer any opinion on the photo itself. I was just offering my hope that you weren't seriously considering quitting. I don't even consider myself to be good enough to be called an amateur, so I don't know why my opinion would even matter.


Your opinion matters to me. I love your posts. Fair enough. I guess I have a higher opinion or your posts than you do.


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

JCd, 


jcdeboever said:


> Dean_Gretsch said:
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> 
> > I agree with the above. If you love photography, you wouldn't be happy if you gave it up. We all need constructive criticism if we expect to continue growing, even if it is subjective or personal preference.
> ...



JCD, I gave you my opinion of what exactly I thought went wrong in that photo in my 2d post.  quote " Way too busy for the idea to show through."
If you consider my critiques to be a form of 'tearing down' say so...I will cease commenting on your stuff,  fair enough?


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> JCd,
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It's in the busy. I'm done posting on here.


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## Derrel (Nov 22, 2016)

Please do not allow one ******* comment to discourage you from posting. The idea underlying your photo obviously went way over the head of the person who made it and who even took the time to tag his negative, throwaway comment with a "drunk beer drinker's" emoticon. I saw another of your recent posts the other day...Combining the other post and its response and this post and its response, it seems to me that we have a number of people here who can not for the LIFE of them, understand anything that is not 100% straight, representational photography or thoughts.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 22, 2016)

Derrel said:


> Please do not allow one ******* comment to discourage you from posting. The idea underlying your photo obviously went way over the head of the person who made it and who even took the time to tag his negative, throwaway comment with a "drunk beer drinker's" emoticon. I saw another of your recent posts the other day...Combining the other post and its response and this post and its response, it seems to me that we have a number of people here who can not for the LIFE of them, understand anything that is not 100% straight, representational photography or thoughts.


Thanks Derrel, that means a lot coming from you. It is not a composite but a layer or glass, light, shadow, and content.


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

Derrel said:


> Please do not allow one ******* comment to discourage you from posting. The idea underlying your photo obviously went way over the head of the person who made it and who even took the time to tag his negative, throwaway comment with a "drunk beer drinker's" emoticon. I saw another of your recent posts the other day...Combining the other post and its response and this post and its response, it seems to me that we have a number of people here who can not for the LIFE of them, understand anything that is not 100% straight, representational photography or thoughts.



Derrel, as an absolute jack@$$ you are a success.  I have encouraged JC for a long time, and his idea never went over my head.  What went over my head was the execution.   Are you, the great prescient, omnicient Sayer going to declare the photo to be a masterpiece?    JC is having a tough time at the moment...apparently..  let him sit on it for awhile....as for you, you are on my ignore list from now on.  Which bothers neither of us I am sure.


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## Didereaux (Nov 22, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Please do not allow one ******* comment to discourage you from posting. The idea underlying your photo obviously went way over the head of the person who made it and who even took the time to tag his negative, throwaway comment with a "drunk beer drinker's" emoticon. I saw another of your recent posts the other day...Combining the other post and its response and this post and its response, it seems to me that we have a number of people here who can not for the LIFE of them, understand anything that is not 100% straight, representational photography or thoughts.
> ...




JC, if you remember it was I who was one of the first to praise your window reflection juxtapositions awhile back.  I will leave it to you to explain to the 'brilliant' one you praise so highly as to what that word means.    Your all encompassing comment about the 'unhelpful' aspects of the site would necessarily include such people as AstroNikon, a person who not only helps others on the site, but in person as well.    Take some time off, relax whatever then come back to your pictures....and this site.  Take care of external pressures and things will brighten.


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## SquarePeg (Nov 22, 2016)

I like the concept.  I agree it's a bit discordant at the top but the eyes are clearly visible - maybe crop it where that line of dark/light cuts across just above the eyes?  

I agree with Derrel.  You need to own your concept and believe in it enough that just one or two people criticizing it or not getting it should not be enough to make you doubt yourself.  As an artist, when you paint, if someone criticizes something that you thought was good enough to show - would that be enough for your to pull it from your show or hang up your brushes?


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## Derrel (Nov 22, 2016)

[QUOTE="Didereaux" 





> Derrel, as an absolute jack@$$ you are a success.  I have encouraged JC for a long time, and his idea never went over my head.  What went over my head was the execution.   Are you, the great prescient, omnicient Sayer going to declare the photo to be a masterpiece?    JC is having a tough time at the moment...apparently..  let him sit on it for awhile....as for you, you are on my ignore list from now on.  Which bothers neither of us I am sure.



Once again, YOU, Didereaux, have called ME "a jack@@@)". Seriously, This is the second time you've done that in open forum. Stop behaving like a boor.

And, excuse me Didereaux, but I have personally been very encouraging of JC, both in PM's and in open forum. I've taken quite an interest in him, as sort of a mentor and encourager. You? Sorry, but you were the one who made the throwaway, put-down comment to him. I felt compelled to defend my friend against your meaningless, hurtful insult.

And please, spare me your telling me that I am "now  on your ignore list": stating such a thing is a violation of forum rules, in case you are unaware of it.

I find your behavior here in this thread a great example of what TPF needs LESS of. Like people calling other "J!!kA&&",etc,etc.. Were you drunk when you made the comment? If so, I'll excuse your bad behavior. Otherwise, you just got called out for being that horse and donkey cross-breed.


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## Derrel (Nov 22, 2016)

JC, as some might or might not know, I was the one to steer you to several very good instructiuonal books on photography within your first weeks here on this site, books which have given you very RAPID, amazing progress over the past year. I've been very positive toward you and your efforts,JC. 

Please, do not let negative put-downs of your photos cause you to stop posting. As I mentioned above, last week you got regally reamed for a post that was not representational; tonight you were slammed with a very brief *drive-by put down *from a poster who,later in the thread, had to dig his way out, and who offered to STOP posting and commenting on your work.

Do not allow the TPF posters who want to jump your photos, to cause you to become discouraged, or to stop posting. You've made a lot of progress in your photography over the last year. We have all seen it. Please do not allow ultra-brief comments to sway your own vision.


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## Gary A. (Nov 22, 2016)

I like the image.  The very fact that was was not concocted in a photo manipulation program, for me, makes the image that much better ... more photography ... less graphic art.  I like all the Mondrian lines and cubism geometricity. I am torn on Abe though, to me it certainly works being dark and blending into the landscape, some places in front of the landscape and in other area behind the landscape.  But I wonder if the image of Abe would be more successful if it was more prominent and less hidden.  There is a lot going on there, good eye and keep them coming. I appreciate you stepping out of the norm and challenging/contrasting what is usually posted here by the many.


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## Derrel (Nov 22, 2016)

Maybe you should try a more bold processing style on this file? Maybe strive to emphasize the "modern" of the buildings, against the old, Civil War era Lincoln? Here's what I mean, going for a really, really emphatic image. This is a type of photography that was popular among serious photography workers in the 1970's and 1980's. As Gary A. mentioned, the fact that the original photo was *captured in-camera*, and not composited, makes it feel a bit different than if it had been meticulously _created in software_. But it does look a lot like "sandwiched" images, a la the ones in the Hedgecoe books I recommended to you. 

So...maybe go in another direction from the original capture, like maybe this pretty wild color-juiced look at your photo? This FORCES the viewer to see Abraham Lincoln, and makes use of the upper-left quadrant as negative space, but keeps the fire escapes and  the tall city buildings and their many windows as an element of the "modern era".


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## DarkShadow (Nov 23, 2016)

JC my brother from my other mother,bro you been killing some excellent flower shots,B&W stuff and I recall some really nice shots with tractors I have never seen before. If you have the passion and really enjoy photography keep shooting and forget the quick critic comments from discouraging you from doing something you enjoy.


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## DarkShadow (Nov 23, 2016)

I like the bold edit by Derrel.


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## smoke665 (Nov 23, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Whatever, it needs to be looked at.... It's not a bird. Sometimes there is a lot of thought put into something. The story is there.



I like the concept, planning, and execution that went into the image. Would I have done something differently? Probably but that's the individual artist's "opinion". Doesn't make anyone right or wrong or invalidate your presentation in any way. You mentioned something about going back to painting, which makes me think that possibly we've encountered the same frustration. The inability to match what the mind sees. I had this happen a few months back and even posted about "hitting a wall".  Fortunately I worked through it and moved on.

I've followed your posts over the last few months, and found much encouragement from them. Your willingness to experiment, learn and try new things, is the artist within struggling to come out. I've watched you grow, expand your talent, and offer words of encouragement to others along the way. Your absence from the forum would be sorely missed.


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## bulldurham (Nov 23, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Whatever, it needs to be looked at.... It's not a bird. Sometimes there is a lot of thought put into something. The story is there.
> 
> I am no pro photographer for sure. This site is just into crushing people's vision and it is known for that.



Well, I know how much you like my critiques but I do feel compelled to respond to THE IMAGE. I don't get it. Perhaps that is a shortcoming on my part, but for a juxtaposition to "work," there has to be a relational commonality. The relationship doesn't have to be blatant, nor does it have to rely strictly on subject matter. The relational commonality can be shapes, colors, textures, etc., but in this image, I see none of these commonalities. It is a deliberate act but what I see is two random (and perhaps three) images put together with seemingly no rhyme nor reason. Perhaps a little backstory as to the idea, the intent and why the images were chosen would have helped the viewer to understand your imaginative concept.

As to this site crushing people's visions, I think you have a point though I don't think they are necessarily better, but more trying to show they are more intuitive or more skilled than you are - one-up-man-ship, if you will. There are however quite a few folks on here who are quite skilled and intuitive and they do offer good advice even if they sometimes fight with each other  Didereaux and Derrell are very intuitive photographers as is the Traveler and so on.  Assuaging egos is rarely a part of a critique. If you are on a forum to get positive strokes on everything you post, you are climbing up a tree studded with a lot of other egos just chomping at the bit to point out why you are WRONG.

If your only intent is to get better (and it damn well should be), then try some backstory. Offer up what drove you to make the image and then ask one and only one question to the forum as to whether they think you succeeded. Take that and make another image and ask another question. Improvement requires process. I required my students to keep a shooting log, a processing log (film and darkroom) a print log and then they were required to write an assignment critique on their most successful shot and their least successful image. Half of their grade was based on their honesty, and their construct of what they did, why, and how they could improve. It's not a bad way to work your own images.

That's my two-cents.


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## jcdeboever (Nov 23, 2016)

I mean, it's not a composite but careful looking and framing. Sometimes it's more about the vision


bulldurham said:


> jcdeboever said:
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I appreciate the thorough response. I can handle this type of response or critique. It's about improving and I get that it would not be everyone's cup of tea. I over reacted a little, embarrassingly so. Snarky comments like keep practicing offer no value and are hurtful. They cut like a knife. I am over sensitive lately probably due to health challenges and pain medication, I am not used to taking any medications, what so ever, so I think it is a little of that. 

Backstory for image; walking the streets and noticed this huge portrait of Lincoln on the wall in Dental building. My father loves anything AL so I was trying to capture an image in my abstract style because my father was so supportive of me in the past when I was transitioning from realism painting to abstract. Was getting a ton of negative responses from all angles during the transition. It was going to be (still may be) a Christmas present for him. Anyway, the light was harsh and booming into the window distracting the framing I had envisioned. Often times, the other little things going on in the background are not seen until post. What I noticed in pre-vision; Lincoln looking out over what has developed today, buildings, cars, transportation, warm cloths , or simply put...progress.  A tree... I look at it as if he had a great deal of influence at what is today. I guess I just see some things different and was proud to post it. 

Thanks bull!


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## bulldurham (Nov 23, 2016)

I think had you used the image of Lincoln in conjunction with things that represent movements of freedom such as a bust of MLK or a war memorial it might have had more relational impact. I do understand more about the image as result of the backstory and think perhaps you should ask one question about the image either as it applies to the backstory, or as it applies to shapes, patterns, etc. See where this takes you and keep working at it. I was never a painter but I did some rather extensive colored pencil drawings until my diabetes and arthritis made doing fine detail almost impossible so I understand the art aspect coming through.


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## ZombiesniperJr (Nov 23, 2016)

Nice shot jcdeboever


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## jcdeboever (Nov 23, 2016)

ZombiesniperJr said:


> Nice shot jcdeboever


Thanks Logan


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## smoke665 (Nov 23, 2016)

bulldurham said:


> I did some rather extensive colored pencil drawings



I did as well for awhile. You do realize that colored pencil drawings and Post processing are a lot alike - you just keep adding layers till you get it right ;-)


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## gk fotografie (Nov 24, 2016)

jcdeboever said:


> Dean_Gretsch said:
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> ...



Oh yes, I like the idea.

Millions of people will never reach beyond 'the art' of pushing a camera-button, so treasure your creative thoughts and keep going in the opposite direction, experiment, explore and above all enjoy life. That said, I really think this picture can use a bit more contrast, in particular the area around the eyes.

Further more, the part above the eyes (buildings in the background) it's too white/bright imo and feels like a dissonant this way.
It's not that easy to just darken this part of the picture, so maybe try a different kind of solution that works rather well with this "surrealistic" image you created?

I made a negative of the original image (second layer to use the part with the buildings in it) and joined both layers to get a better balance between top and bottom, well at least that is what I think. Finally sharpend the photo. Ofcourse this is just my idea.

Gerard


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## jcdeboever (Nov 24, 2016)

gk fotografie said:


> jcdeboever said:
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Thanks Gerard. I am going to revisit the spot next time in area. Cloudy morning would more than likely be an optimal time. The sun was beating in directly at my back. It was a surprise I actually noticed it. The sun was reflecting off the plate glass in front of me, so that was the reason for the lack of contrast. I took several shots, adjusting EC, then played around with a couple A & S settings. It was fun and exciting at the same time because something is there for me.


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