# Which Camera Nikon D300s or Canon 7D



## saurabh

Hi I have been planning to buy my first DSLR camera and I am so confused about the camera which will suit my needs. I have a budget of about USD$2500 and I have two options one is D300s and Canon 7D. I can efford to buy Nikon D300s with Nikkor 16-85/3.5-5.6G ED VR lens and on the other side I can efford to buy Canon 7D with 18-135 kit lense. 
I need help to make a decision which one is really meant for me. Last and most important thing is that I will be using this camera for mostly Travel, Wildlife and Landscape photography. I want to start with one lens and later would add more better quality lenses as I go.
Please help me.


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## Montana

The higher megapixel count of the Canon will allow you to crop more for your wildlife shots that you may not be able to get close enough to on foot.  The 7D looks to be a better high ISO performer than the Nikon.  Not sure about the Nikon, but the 7D has darn good weather sealing characteristics for your outdoor shooting.  Are you into video at all?  Canon is the DSLR video leader.  Not saying the D300 is not a great body, because it actually is.  But between the two, the Canon is superior.


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## IgsEMT

> The 7D looks to be a better high ISO performer than the Nikon


Really?
Got independent sample results? 



> Not saying the D300 is not a great body, because it actually is.  But between the two, the Canon is superior.


 As per who?

My best advice, is hold Canon and Nikon and see how it feels in your hand and to your heart. If it feels right (regardless of the brand) get it and enjoy it. It's like marriage, only cheaper (_hope my wife doesn't read this :lmao:_). IQ, both brands are amazing and will provide amazing results. Both have positives and negatives associated to them and both "Nikon is better" or "Canon is better" are subjective unless quantitatively evaluated and even then user bias will probably effect opinions


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## PhotoXopher

You'll most likely have Canon owners claiming the 7D is better and Nikon owners claiming the D300s is better.

Hold each one in your hands... work through the system, play with the buttons, the menus, get a feel for it.

Whichever one makes the most sense to you is the one you should buy because they are both very capable cameras.

Having owned the D300s I can say it's an absolute workhorse, and yes - it's also weather sealed. Saying the Canon is superior and offers better high ISO is certainly your opinion... I'd also like to see how you came up with this solution, because from everything I've read it comes down to current gear and style preference.


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## inTempus

They really are evenly matched.  Neither really has the upper hand on the other in terms of image performance or ISO capabilities.  The 7D does have more pixels, which is a blessing for some and a curse for others.

I would also look at the available lenses and their costs.  I think you will find Canon generally is more affordable than Nikon.

One thing the D300S has that the 7D lacks is two card slots.  I personally think all semi-pro and pro bodies should have dual card slots.

It really boils down to personal preference and what you want to do with your camera.  Regardless of which one you pick, you should be quite happy with the results.

I would have a hard time picking between them myself if I were just starting out.


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## Wolverinepwnes

go play with both at a store, whichever feels better in your hand, and whichever's menus and button lay out you like better is the one you should go with!  you will get a canon guy, like the second post from the top telling you 7D is a superior camera and you will get Nikon guys telling you the D300s is better! in all honesty both cameras are great! consider this though: you have to realize buying a camera of this magnitude is a commitment due to the fact that you have to buy Lens for it and thats where the money will be spent!  so consider which lens maker you want to go with! higher end lens from Nikkor (nikon) are better quality but they are more expensive than the canons, so keep that in mind!  good luck with you choice!!!!


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## Sw1tchFX

the 16-85VR is a better lens than the Canon 18-135 for sure.

I<3 the 7D, but i'd go for the D300 instead just because of your lens options.


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## inTempus

Wolverinepwnes said:


> higher end lens from Nikkor (nikon) are better quality but they are more expensive than the canons, so keep that in mind!  good luck with you choice!!!!


I'm sorry, but things aren't that cut and dry.  There are Nikkor lenses that are superior to Canon lenses and there are Canon lenses that are superior to Nikkor lenses.  As a matter of fact, Canon's super telephotos are generally held to be superior to Nikkor lenses.  Canon also offers a range of f/4 lenses that Nikkor doesn't offer.

There are plenty of pros out there that have used both Canon and Nikon who prefer Canon lenses.  Here's one such example of a former Canon shooter who switched to Nikon:

photography tip tuesday | &#8220;The Switch&#8221; | week two: Nikon vs. Canon » Colorado Springs Portrait and Wedding Photographers: Real Photography Blog



> Which leads perfectly into what I don&#8217;t love [about Nikon]:
> ​ - The lenses.  Not only are there a lot fewer of them (there is no 35mm f/1.4 Nikon equivalent&#8211;which is what kills me the most), but I&#8217;m not in love with any of them in the same way that I loved my Canon lenses.  It&#8217;s pretty much an exact swap.  Under Canon, I didn&#8217;t love the bodies, but I loved the lenses.  With Nikon, I don&#8217;t love the lenses, but I&#8217;d marry the bodies.  The way the Nikon lenses feel in your hand isn&#8217;t as nice&#8211;particularly with the 70-200, which stays mounted on my camera a lot.  It&#8217;s skinnier than the Canon version, and has lots of bumps and changes along the way (it&#8217;s also longer).  The Canon version felt much nicer to hold.
> ​ - Did I mention the lenses?  Canon updates their lenses very very frequently.  Nikon does not.  While this is awesome when you buy a lens and know it&#8217;s gonna be around for a long time, it sucks in that sometimes you&#8217;re buying very old lenses.  My 85mm f/1.4 is over ten years old.  (Not the actual lens, of course, but the overall design.)  Now, this means that you&#8217;re missing out on newer innovations.  For one thing, the D lenses have the manual aperture ring on them&#8230;and that&#8217;s just one extra thing that could go wrong (see above).   The biggest thing for me, though, is that the older lenses don&#8217;t benefit from the advances in flare and chromatic aboration control that have been made in recent years.  (And when you use backlighting as much as I do, this is big.)
> ​ - Yeah&#8211;more about the lenses.  I was spoiled by Canon.  Flare was incredibly rare, and I rarely pulled out my lens hood.  With the Nikon lenses I have to use the lens hood or I get flare.  I see this most with the 70-200.  I never even thought about flare with my Canon version, but now sometimes even the hood isn&#8217;t enough and I need Nic to stand with the reflector acting like a really giant lens hood.  And for the fans of flare, it&#8217;s not pretty flare.  It&#8217;s big blob flare which requires time-consuming photoshoppery to remove:​



Here are some other observations from this pro about other features of Nikon vs. Canon:



> - Flash recycle rate.  In our Canon days, we shot with the 580 II (and the 580) and the battery pack to increase the recycle time.  We were very happy with the recycle speed.  With the Nikon gear, we&#8217;re shooting with SB-900 flashes and the SD-8 battery packs.  They take 6 batteries instead of 8, and I am NOT impressed with the recycle speed.  It is dramatically lower but from reviews, I don&#8217;t know that the SD-9 is a worthwhile upgrade.  We need to do more research about this, but my initial thought is that Canon has the edge in recycle time.
> ​ - The backward-nes.    I think most people think - is on the left and + is on the right, regardless of whether or not you have ever seen a camera meter.  I should be able to turn a nob to the left to make the image under exposed and turn it to the right to make it over exposed.  I just should.
> 
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> ​ - The menus.  I shot with a Nikon point and shoot back in the day, so those are the digital menus I learned on, but I think Canon handles the menus better.  Luckily almost everything is right there in buttons on my D3, but when I do have to go into the menus, I&#8217;m not a fan.  Having four separate menus isn&#8217;t super intuitive&#8211;I don&#8217;t always agree with Nikon over what is a set-up issue and what would fall under the shooting menu.
> ​ - The Nikon lens mount is smaller.  I don&#8217;t like it.    (this is the part of the list where I get into the pathetic complaints)
> ​ - The D700 comes with a pop-up flash.  Versus the 5d which doesn&#8217;t.  I *hate* camera pop-up flashes cause I have a tendency to accidentally hit the flash button and then it pops up and surprises me, but not in a good &#8220;free hamburger&#8221; way, just a &#8220;where did that come from?  now I look flustered and unprofessional&#8221; way.
> ​ - Nikon&#8217;s default setting is to shoot without a memory card.  This is an insane default and I turned it to off the minute I took the cameras out of their boxes.
> ​ - Nikon&#8217;s professional services department is geared toward photojournalists and they seem to have a &#8220;portrait and wedding photographers aren&#8217;t real professionals&#8221; attitude.  In order to join their professional services, you have to show 2 tear sheets for each calendar year.  Canon, on the other hand, understands that you don&#8217;t have to sell images to magazines and newspapers to be a full time photographer.  (This is an issue when it comes to repairs and renting equipment.)​ What was a mute point?  (Or a moo point, as Joey would say&#8230
> ​ - Color.  The first week or two were difficult as I learned to process the Nikon images.  Whichever camera you have, you get used to its idiosyncrasies and learn what you need to do to it in order to get the results you want.  I definitely had to re-learn this when we switched.  But after a month, I didn&#8217;t even think about it anymore.  I love the color I get now just as much as I love the color from the Canons.  Since I shoot in RAW and make all white-balance and color decisions in post-processing anyway, the straight out of camera results from either camera are void.​


​ ​


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## MrLogic

inTempus said:


> As a matter of fact, Canon's super telephotos are generally held to be superior to Nikkor lenses.



Superior in what way?

I've never seen any scientific tests or data on this, so a link would be appreciated.


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## inTempus

MrLogic said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, Canon's super telephotos are generally held to be superior to Nikkor lenses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Superior in what way?
> 
> I've never seen any scientific tests or data on this, so a link would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I double checked my post and I confirmed I never said anything about "scientific".  By "generally held", I mean why many photogs purchase one brand over the other.  

It's also generally held that Nikon has the advantage in wide angle lenses.

From there, have fun with Google!


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## Derrel

Preston Mack Photography: The switch to Nikon

Here's professional sports and editorial shooter Preston Mack's story about his switch from Canon to Nikon. Why? It started with an art director telling him, "The cover image doesn't look in focus." Mack shoots for magazines like Time, Newsweek, Business Week, ESPN The Magazine, and Reader's Digest. You know, large, multi-million dollar magazines, with art directors with high standards for judging professional photographic results against those of other professionals, on a daily basis.

Preston Mack's story is being told all across the world, as photographers leave Canon for Nikon cameras and lenses by the thousands. The 2008 Summer Olympics were a good example; at the Olympics, Robert Hanashiro from USA Today, also one who dropped Canon in favor of Nikon, noted that the dominance Canon once held was lost,as legions of Nikon cameras were in evidence at all the Olympic venues. USA Today dropped Canon equipment in favor of Nikon equipment as soon as the Nikon D3 hit the market in 2007.

As Mack concludes, "When I was having my Canon "fire sale" on SportsShooter.com, many photographers emailed me asking if I switched and what my impressions of the new Nikon gear was. For me, I switched because the timing was right. Canon's flagship has a major defect, my EOS lenses were starting to show some age and more importantly, Nikon released a pair of the best digital SLRs ever made, the D300 and the D3. I could not be happier with them - it was not an easy to switch, but a necessary business decision."

As Preston Mack noted, "Another improvement is the Nikon strobes. Canon strobes have always lagged behind Nikon's, and this is still true. I shot one wedding for my wife's business and we were able to compare the Canon 5D/580 EX combo against the D300/SB800 combo. The Nikon results were much more reliable and consistent. I rarely use on camera flash, so this isn't a major concern, but is worth noting."

The Canon telephoto lenses inTempus claims are "superior" to Nikons are the Nikon lenses from the PRIOR generation; Nikon has an entirely new lineup of supertelephotos with VR: world-class 200,300,400,500,and 600mm lenses, all with VR and state of the art focusing capabilities, plus the world leader in long zooms, the 200-400 VR-Nikkor, which is a lens Canon has no equivalent for. Quite a few high-end shooters have left Canon over their lack of development of the semi-pro SLR body segment during the 10D-20D-30D-40D-50D series of incremental specification changes with no real upgrades to the camera or system,such as the inability to wirelessly command flashes, or to edit images in-camera, or to offer D-Lighting editing in-camera,etc, plus the same dated, tired 9-point AF system with a very narrow, center-biased area which the 7D has not improved upon. The 7D has more AF brackets, but the same narrow area of  AF bracket coverage as the old 10D through 50D models. The real Canon failing however was the serious AF problems and issues that plagued the 1D Mark III, as well as the lure of pro-level AF and full-frame capabilities Nikon offers in a mid-level camera, the D700. Canon is still putting great sensors into basically a $350 Canon EOS Elan 3 film body and calling it the 5D series...a low-cost body with a nice digital sensor. Nikon's strategy since 2007 has been to put pro-level autofocus into the D300 and D700 and D3 series bodies, so that people starting out can have the same 51-area AF system and the same color-aware light metering and the same professional-level TTL flash control across a three-tier level of prices.

It's probably hard to understand how different Canon and Nikon are until you pick up the cameras side by side.


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## KmH

You can also look at the May 10 entry of Yuri Acurs' blog about the tests he did comparing high end Canon and Nikon.

Clash of the Titans &#8211; Canon 1Ds Mark III vs Nikon D3X for Stock | Yuri Arcurs

Draw your own conclusions, like Yuri did.


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## inTempus

The 1D3, even despite its problems, still out performed the D3 and it's AF system.

Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME

Even without the sub-mirror fix for the 1D3 it smoked the D3, which scored a 48% out of focus score (damn near 50%).

As for the 7D, it has 19 AF points, all of which are cross-type sensors.  Compare this to the D300/D700/D3 15 cross-type points and you have a more sensitive AF system.  The 7D also uses the same mirror box, view finder and algorithms of the new 1D Mark IV.  That means it likely out performs the D300 in AF.  I would like to see a review of the two systems side by side.

Pretending the 7D's AF system is anything like the 50D or other previous generations of the xxD bodies seems a bit off-base.  

As for the legions of defectees to Nikon from Canon, as Derrel himself has noted previously, this happens from time to time.  The bodies Derrel is talking about are a "PRIOR" generation of bodies that caused this defection.  Canon still is just a couple of percentage points behind Nikon in the sales wars, Nikon holds the lead by the narrowest of margins.  It's not some vast difference as some would have you believe.  Now that the 7D is out and the 1D4 is on the way, the pendulum could just as easily swing back to Canon's favor.  Only time will tell.

As for the whole quality control issue that keeps getting brought up, as if Nikon never has had an issue  with a body before seems a bit disingenuous.  Did Canon make a mistake with the 1D3?  Yup.  Has Nikon ever released a buggy product?  Yup.  Both will fix their mistakes given time.  The moral to that story is don't be an early adopter if you're not prepared to deal with the issues that can arise.


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## Montana

Here is an example of the ISO tests asked for.....

http://www.photographybay.com/2009/10/27/canon-7d-vs-nikon-d300s-iso-test/

I don't know why the Nikon guys get their panties in a bunch over a new camera being "better" in certain aspects.  Every new body (for the most part) should be better regardless whether it be from Nikon or Canon.


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## Aritay

inTempus said:


> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME



I've been reading this thread with interest - - thanks for everyone's input.

Just one point on the above link.  At least when I viewed/read this page it was loaded with Canon advertisements.  Not saying there is any bias here, but it did not inspire confidence in the objectivity of the results for me, IMHO.


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## MrLogic

inTempus said:


> MrLogic said:
> 
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> 
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> 
> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, Canon's super telephotos are generally held to be superior to Nikkor lenses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Superior in what way?
> 
> I've never seen any scientific tests or data on this, so a link would be appreciated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I double checked my post and I confirmed I never said anything about "scientific".  By "generally held", I mean why many photogs purchase one brand over the other.
> 
> It's also generally held that Nikon has the advantage in wide angle lenses.
> 
> From there, have fun with Google!
Click to expand...


Sorry to disappoint, but I can't find anything on the internet that supports your assertion, scientific or not. I'm assuming you are referring to the 400 f/2.8 VR, 500 f/4 VR and 600mm f/4 VR versus the equivalent Canon lenses? 

There are actual tests (online) that show that the Nikkor 14-24mm is ahead of the competition, if that's what you mean. Not sure what other Nikon wide angle lenses you are referring to (some are pretty bad), but Canon has some good to excellent wide angle lenses last time I checked. And much more to choose from. So...


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## inTempus

Aritay said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading this thread with interest - - thanks for everyone's input.
> 
> Just one point on the above link.  At least when I viewed/read this page it was loaded with Canon advertisements.  Not saying there is any bias here, but it did not inspire confidence in the objectivity of the results for me, IMHO.
Click to expand...

It's a review posted to a discussion forum.  The reviewer is a user of the board.  That's like not taking anything to heart on this forum because it has a Canon ad periodically at the top.


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## Aritay

inTempus said:


> Aritay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading this thread with interest - - thanks for everyone's input.
> 
> Just one point on the above link.  At least when I viewed/read this page it was loaded with Canon advertisements.  Not saying there is any bias here, but it did not inspire confidence in the objectivity of the results for me, IMHO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a review posted to a discussion forum.  The reviewer is a user of the board.  That's like not taking anything to heart on this forum because it has a Canon ad periodically at the top.
Click to expand...


Sorry - - did not realize it was a forum post.  I was busy just reading the content.  (As a long-term car junkie, I'm just sensitive to the practice of car reviewers reviewing the cars of the companies that pay them.)  :cheers:


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## Wolverinepwnes

see what you started kid!  just go to a camera store and try out both camera's and pick one!  when you hold them both and play with the buttons and the menus one of them will click go with that one!! cuz the whole debate between Nikon and Canon is like the debate between Creationism and Evolution!!!!!!!


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## Derrel

Yeah, Canon is a world leader in advertising revenue, and they do a lot of advertising on the web-based camera and photography forums.

Stop by here and look at the High-ISO comparisons,and you'll see Canon and Nikon are both ahead of "that other company".

Canon EOS 7D Review: 27. Compared to (Higher ISO): Digital Photography Review

If you have no equipment and no basis for comparison, a visit to an actual camera store is worth a few dozen forum posts. Real, side-by-side comparisons of actual products might sway your buying decision very easily.
Perhaps one camera allows you to see through it better when wearing eyeglasses, etc, etc. As a new buyer, it is easy to become fixated on one or two alleged selling points, when the real fact of the matter is that, until you have a reasonable amount of experience, it's difficult to know what features are *truly* the most critical or valuable ones.

Buying based on prices for example, can lead to regrets later. There are two things: "cheaper" and "less-costly". Try not to confuse the two.


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## fcaccia

ok, here is an awesome idea to try your camera on location, canon, nikon, it doesn't matter!
learn stock photography on a caribbean island


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## TJ K

Montana said:


> The higher megapixel count of the Canon will allow you to crop more for your wildlife shots that you may not be able to get close enough to on foot.  The 7D looks to be a better high ISO performer than the Nikon.  Not sure about the Nikon, but the *7D has darn good weather sealing* characteristics for your outdoor shooting.  Are you into video at all?  Canon is the DSLR video leader.  Not saying the D300 is not a great body, because it actually is.  But between the two, the Canon is superior.



Sorry but I have to say i've seen some diagrams of the sealing and it is no where near the d300(s). It was actually disappointing to me to see it have such lame weather sealing. They really missed some key spots. The d300s is superior in that way. With the grip the d300s will shoot 8fps but i think the 7D just does. If you're using big lenses though you might put a grip on there anyway to balance out the camera. The 7D is pretty good at higher ISO but Nikon isn't very far behind. Either way you will be happy. I choose Nikon because i just don't like how canon cameras feel in my hands. GL
TJ

Edit: Here is a link to show the sealing on the 7D Sealing Picture


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## Montana

Looks like it would hold up to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the consumers using it.  The other 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% need the underwater housing.  LOL

7D #1 Weather Sealing


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## MrLogic

inTempus said:


> The 1D3, even despite its problems, still out performed the D3 and it's AF system.
> 
> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> Even without the sub-mirror fix for the 1D3 it smoked the D3, which scored a 48% out of focus score (damn near 50%).



To be fair, the 1D III "smoked" the D3 by performing miserably, just not as much. There were (also) many Canon users who questioned how this "test" was set up. I can dig up the quotes if you wish.


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## IgsEMT

> see what you started kid! just go to a camera store and try out both camera's and pick one! when you hold them both and play with the buttons and the menus one of them will click go with that one!! cuz the whole debate between Nikon and Canon is like the debate between Creationism and Evolution!!!!!!!


:lmao:


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## TJ K

inTempus said:


> Aritay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading this thread with interest - - thanks for everyone's input.
> 
> Just one point on the above link.  At least when I viewed/read this page it was loaded with Canon advertisements.  Not saying there is any bias here, but it did not inspire confidence in the objectivity of the results for me, IMHO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a review posted to a discussion forum.  The reviewer is a user of the board.  That's like not taking anything to heart on this forum because it has a Canon ad periodically at the top.
Click to expand...

Actually there are a lot of sigma 18-250 ads Don't listen to those sigma reviews.
TJ


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## Aritay

TJ K said:


> Actually there are a lot of sigma 18-250 ads Don't listen to those sigma reviews.



Too bad you didn't read post 18. (You might want to follow the whole thread.) :lmao:


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## inTempus

Montana said:


> Looks like it would hold up to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of the consumers using it.  The other 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% need the underwater housing.  LOL
> 
> 7D #1 Weather Sealing


That's a pretty cool report.  The guy has balls taking the 5D2 to Antarctica given the last time someone reported a similar exercise all the 5D2's across the globe died suddenly when one hit the cold.


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## Aritay

inTempus said:


> 7D #1 Weather Sealing



Wow.  Also in the pic "showing the camera at work" - - there just happens to be a seal the foreground about to take a chomp out of a tripod leg, completed uncommented upon, almost as if that were usual. . .


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## inTempus

Aritay said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7D #1 Weather Sealing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.  Also in the pic "showing the camera at work" - - there just happens to be a seal the foreground about to take a chomp out of a tripod leg, completed uncommented upon, almost as if that were usual. . .
Click to expand...

You've never been to that region of the world.  It's only notable when the thing being chomped on is a human limb... otherwise it is business as usual.  



I noticed that too and laughed pretty hard at the image.


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## inTempus

MrLogic said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 1D3, even despite its problems, still out performed the D3 and it's AF system.
> 
> Canon 1D MKIII vs. Nikon D3 Sports Autofocus Showdown - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> Even without the sub-mirror fix for the 1D3 it smoked the D3, which scored a 48% out of focus score (damn near 50%).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, the 1D III "smoked" the D3 by performing miserably, just not as much. There were (also) many Canon users who questioned how this "test" was set up. I can dig up the quotes if you wish.
Click to expand...

OMG, someone questioned a technical review on the internet and you can - GASP - provide quotes?  Wow, I never would have imagined.  

It wouldn't be a technical review if it didn't ruffle a few feathers and cause each camp to go on a tirade about how invalid it was.


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## TJ K

inTempus said:


> Aritay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7D #1 Weather Sealing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.  Also in the pic "showing the camera at work" - - there just happens to be a seal the foreground about to take a chomp out of a tripod leg, completed uncommented upon, almost as if that were usual. . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You've never been to that region of the world.  It's only notable when the thing being chomped on is a human limb... otherwise it is business as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that too and laughed pretty hard at the image.
Click to expand...

Wow i just noticed it haha. Pretty darn funny with that huge seal going for the gold 
TJ


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## Derrel

MrLogic said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 1D3, even despite its problems, still out performed the D3 and it's AF system.
> 
> Yeah--using Center point ONLY AF--Canon's strength. The guy who conducted the test is obviously unaware that Nikon has SRS and color-aware and distance-aware light metering and autofocusing, which the Canon 1D-III does not have. The 1D-III is totally color-blind.
> 
> So, hey, some amateur web blogger took a 51-point AF system in a Nikon D3, and turned off 98 percent of the AF points and shot a jogger in a white T-shirt running toward him as being representative of a "sports" scenario???
> 
> 
> That is absolutely hilarious--wasting 98 percent of the advantage of color-aware and distance-aware autofocusing by using ONLY the center AF point, and disregarding the 50 other AF points the D3 has?? No, the "real" test of sports performance was when people like Robert Hanashiro, the FOUNDER of Sports Photography and Photojournalism for Professional Photographers and Photography | SportsShooter.com, abandoned Canon for the Nikon D3...as did the entire staff at USA Today, and many of the guys at Sports Illustrated. Why? They wanted a full-frame camera with killer AF, killer high ISO, and Nikon's entire line of new lenses; 14-24, 24-70, 200 f/2, 300/2.8, etc.
> 
> When some web blogger can't figure out how to use a camera it's one thing: when many of America's finest professional sports shooters switch to Nikon, it's another thing entirely.
> 
> Wow==whose car can go faster in FIRST gear??? Hilarious! Center-AF only is like ignoring how a car drives in 2nd,3rd,4th,and 5th gear!
Click to expand...


----------



## inTempus

Derrel, can you show me a single technical review that isn't just someones opinion that the D3 out performs the 1D in AF, or visa versa?  Is there such a test?

So are you saying the D3's color aware metering doesn't work with a single point selected?  Are you saying that the single AF point on the Canon is superior to the single point on the D3?  What are you saying?

How do you think the 1D4 with its 45 cross-type sensors will stack up to the D3 and it's 15 cross-type AF points?

Can you provide a definitive technical review that shows the color aware AF system of the D3 makes it more accurate, faster or in any way better than the 1D's AF system?  When I google a comparison between the D3 and the 1D AF systems almost every single article that comes up (and it's nothing more than opinions of course) says Canon has the edge in AF performance.

Are you trying to imply all companies have switched or secretly want to switch to Nikon and Canon rarely sells a new 1D to an action shooter or company that shoot sports?  The last time I attended a Bears game in Chicago there were far more white lenses than black ones to be seen... I mean FAR more.  I'll see if I can't get a picture the next time I'm there.  The same with the Cubs and Sox, a sea of white.  I guess they didn't get the Nikon memo in the Chicago area.


----------



## djacobox372

For $2500 you could buy a refurbished (good as new) nikon d700, and have enough left over to buy a tamron 28-75mm f2.8 lens.


----------



## inTempus

djacobox372 said:


> For $2500 you could buy a refurbished (good as new) nikon d700, and have enough left over to buy a tamron 28-75mm f2.8 lens.


$2169 from Adorama:

25444B Nikon D700 Digital SLR Camera - Refurbished by Nikon U.S.A.


----------



## saurabh

inTempus said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For $2500 you could buy a refurbished (good as new) nikon d700, and have enough left over to buy a tamron 28-75mm f2.8 lens.
> 
> 
> 
> $2169 from Adorama:
> 
> 25444B Nikon D700 Digital SLR Camera - Refurbished by Nikon U.S.A.
Click to expand...

 
Hi Guys many thanks to all who have come to help me out make a decision. As far as the used or refurbished one is concerned its out of question as in India its difficult to buy good used or almost impossible to get a refurbished one.
I never wanted to start an argument between Nikon and Canon users I reckon unintentionaly I just did...So accept my apologies.


----------



## schumionbike

Just get whichever that is more readily or cheaper.  The technical differences between these two cameras are not major enough to allow you to blame on cameras deficiencies for not getting your pictures lol.


----------



## MrLogic

inTempus said:


> OMG, someone questioned a technical review on the internet and you can - GASP - provide quotes?  Wow, I never would have imagined.
> 
> It wouldn't be a technical review if it didn't ruffle a few feathers and cause each camp to go on a tirade about how invalid it was.



Okay, let's assume for a minute that the review is valid and "representative of a sports scenario" ...then it shows that you can't depend on either camera -- the 2 class-leading bodies at the time the review was written(?) The 1D performed horribly and the D3 did even worse.

Okay... I guess. 



saurabh said:


> I never wanted to start an argument between Nikon and Canon users I reckon unintentionaly I just did...So accept my apologies.



No need to apologize. You didn't start the "argument" and it's just entertainment, pretty much. It's not that serious.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a 7D or a D300s if my budget was somewhat limited. Better to invest in glass, IMO. If you're into wildlife photography, the Canon 100-400mm L may be a good place to start. I'd try to get a "new" Canon 40D if at all possible. That should be within your budget.

That's just me, though. Good luck with your decision.



> As far as the used or refurbished one is concerned its out of question as in India its difficult to buy good used or almost impossible to get a refurbished one.



eBay is your friend. Plenty of good deals / respected sellers there.


----------



## Sachphotography

inTempus said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For $2500 you could buy a refurbished (good as new) nikon d700, and have enough left over to buy a tamron 28-75mm f2.8 lens.
> 
> 
> 
> $2169 from Adorama:
> 
> 25444B Nikon D700 Digital SLR Camera - Refurbished by Nikon U.S.A.
Click to expand...


You know I have to say. For someone who has an army of Canon Equipment you seem to keep a sense of reason about you. Its nice to see someone take things at face value and back up fact with logic rather than bias opinion.


----------



## inTempus

Sachphotography said:


> You know I have to say. For someone who has an army of Canon Equipment you seem to keep a sense of reason about you. Its nice to see someone take things at face value and back up fact with logic rather than bias opinion.


Thanks.  That's because I like cameras - not just Canon.  I wound up with Canon, but you know what?  I would have been just as happy with Nikon.  I bought Canon when I got started because I knew the company and had owned their products before.   I continue to buy Canon (although I've seriously considered buying the new D3s) because they give me exceptional results.

If I were just starting out today, I would have a very difficult time choosing between the two brands.  

I would buy a D700 over a 5D2.  If I were buying a semi-pro crop, I would be torn between the 7D and the D300s.  Between the two it's a little tougher decide as one doesn't have the clear advantage over the other as with the D700 and 5D2.  I honestly can't say which I would buy...

Below the D300s and 7D (T1i/5000), I would go with the D5000 over the T1i.  Below that (Rebel / D3000), I would go with the Rebel.

At the pro level, again... it would be a tough call.  I believe the new 1D4 will be the body to have for AF.  Since the announcement of the 1D4 the Nikon multi-cam 3500 AF system became the old fart on the block.   I suspect Nikon will be forced to rethink their AF system on future top level bodies if they want to remain competitive with Canon.  As for image quality, I think the D3s will have the slight advantage in both dynamic range and in high ISO performance given it has a full frame sensor and only 12mp.  I don't think the IQ will be vastly superior, most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two in real-world shooting.  So that leaves me with the AF system... something the 1D4 promises to truly excel at.  

With all of that said... I still can't give you an honest answer which one I would buy if I were starting over.    Heck, you can't even get your hands on a D3s or 1D4 yet.  My opinion could very well change once my 1D4 arrives here shortly.

It's an interesting time for camera buyers.  The raging war on features and advancements in high ISO performance (vs. mega pixels - finally!) is awesome.  No matter which system you buy, you're getting a world class performer.


----------



## inTempus

MrLogic said:


> Okay, let's assume for a minute that the review is valid and "representative of a sports scenario" ...then it shows that you can't depend on either camera -- the 2 class-leading bodies at the time the review was written(?) The 1D performed horribly and the D3 did even worse.


Horrible as compared to what?  That could very well be the best that technology today can provide.  Given there's no other option that I'm aware of on the market, 31% OOF is notably superior to 48% OOF.

It's all a matter of perspective.


----------



## bhphotography

Personally I would go with the Nikon, as they seem to have better glass.


----------



## Wolverinepwnes

here's a solution!!! that will stop all this: get a pentax!


----------



## inTempus

bhphotography said:


> Personally I would go with the Nikon, as they seem to have better glass.


Generally speaking?  I disagree.  They both have hits and misses. If you're talking about consumer lenses, yes - Nikon has the advantage in some cases.  If you're talking about professional grade lenses... that's another story.  It depends on who you ask.

Example:  Canon versus Nikon lenses

Canon has more lenses in its line up and many of its offerings are considered superior (again, depending on who you ask) to the Nikon equivalent.  Making sweeping generalizations about lens quality is fundamentally flawed in my opinion.  Now, if you single out individual lenses, then you can say who has the better lens for that particular application.


----------



## MrLogic

inTempus said:


> Horrible as compared to what?  That could very well be the best that technology today can provide.  Given there's no other option that I'm aware of on the market, 31% OOF is notably superior to 48% OOF.
> 
> It's all a matter of perspective.



Could it be possible that it has more to do with the photographer in question? The wrong settings and wrong technique will yield OOF shots (obviously), and the photographer in question, "Drew," seems to be much more familiar with Canon gear, judging from his website. 

Besides, professional sport photographers don't seem to have these issues -- where a very large percentage of their shots is out of focus. That alone makes me question if this review/test/whatever you want to call it -- has any real world significance. Is it supported by other reviews / comparisons? (I honestly don't know)

But if you're right and that _is_ the best what current technology can provide... then... wow.


----------



## Derrel

John McDonough, Sports Illustrated, 74 Sports Illustrated covers he shot are here for your perusal. John McDonough - SI Vault
Camera of choice: Nikon D3

Robert Beck, Sports Illustrated--   Robert Beck Photography
"All my field gear is Nikon."   Equipment: " a few Nikon D3 bodies, a Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8, a Nikon 24-70mm f 2.8 and a 14-24mm f 2.8,. At sporting events I will include the Nikon 400mm f 2.8, Nikon 600mm f/4, maybe a fast Nikon fisheye, a couple Nikon SB900 strobes and the NIkon right angle finder. If I need a lighter "grab" camera I'll include a Nikon D300 or Nikon D700."  

"Why Nikon? The gear can take the work. The files are superior to anything out there. One of my editors once told me the Nikon files shot in low light looked better than "the other guys'" files shoot during the day! 'Nuff said. The glass is second to none as well. The color is true, the contrast crisp and the sharpness,well sharp. Because it either is or isn't. I need it to be "is". " end quote from Robert Beck.

David Bergman, Sports Illustrated contributor shooting the NFL mostly, plus the music industry. Read his blog dated Nov. 23,2009 at  David Bergman &#8212; ALL ACCESS &#8212; music, sports, and concert photography
Nikon D3, Nikon D700

LEGENDARY Sports Illustrated photographer John Iacono--45 years at Sports Illustrated. Nikon.  Sports Photography | Podcast
Listen to his podcast telling how to shoot sports. Gives lots of tips. Roughly 18 minute free podcast.


Robert Hanashiro, Los Angeles, USA Today photographer, and  the founder of the Sportsshooter.com web site 
Sports Shooter Kahuna&#039;s Blog    Nikon D3, 24-70, 70-200, 300/2.8 for NBA basketball
Hanashiro switched from Canon to Nikon when the D3 hit the market.  During his 2008 Beijing Olympic coverage blog articles   A Letter Home From Beijing
he wrote, "On the Nikon vs. Canon front... Nikon is being used by clearly over half of the photogs here. Nikon's goal of 33% of the Olympic photographers using their gear looks to have been accomplished. I haven't seen so much Nikon gear being used at a major event like this in years. I've been carting around a Think Tank Airport Security every day with three Nikon bodies, 24-70, 70-200, 200-400, 1.4 and 1.7 teleconverters, SB800 speedlite, SC-17 cord, two full card wallets, Induro monopod, Think Tank fanny pack, sunscreen, USA TODAY Olympic pins, MacBook Pro (with power supply) ana a pouch with computer accessories (3 card readers, firewire hub, 160 gig portable hard drive, security cable, mouse, cords and adapters)."

Hmmm...I wonder how come "Drew" couldn't get the Nikon D3 to focus?
Garbage in = garbage out. Using ONE out of 51 AF points is not a very good way to use a sophisticated, flagship camera that Sports Illustrated guys favor...


----------



## inTempus

Unfortunately for Canon, not a single professional organization uses their gear.  You have to wonder how Canon stays in business since they don't seem to sell any professional grade bodies to pros anymore.  

Or is it we're getting one side of the story?

Could it be Canon actually holds a commanding share of the professional market still?

Nah, it's more fun to pretend everyone has dumped them for Nikon.


----------



## CxThree

Where do I sign up for the inTempus newsletter? I like that guy. 

BTW. I shoot with both the Canon 7d and the Nikon D300. I own the 7D and shoot with a company that mainly uses Nikon. For weddings, I would use one of their D300 bodies to make it easier in post processing. (multiple people shooting the same event so using the same brand is a bit easier for color temp, etc..)  I like them both. I am more familiar with the Canon body and like it's feel better. It's a coin flip on which one would be the best to own. Go shoot both of them and see which one feels better to you. Make sure to examine all controls and make sure they are in good spots for your hands. In the end, comfort and ease of use will play a big role when deciding between these.


----------



## cfusionpm

MrLogic said:


> Besides, professional sport photographers don't seem to have these issues -- where a very large percentage of their shots is out of focus. That alone makes me question if this review/test/whatever you want to call it -- has any real world significance.


Well I don't think that's too large a percentage.  Let's say they fire away for a whole game and end up with 1000 shots.  It means 690 of them would be in focus, which I think is reasonable.  It's not like every shot will be perfect but 69% usable is a lot better than 52% usable.  Thats a difference of 170 snaps per thousand.


----------



## PhotoXopher

Derrel and inTempus remind me of Siskel and Ebert 

I enjoy reading their debates... I find myself reading and going YEAH! That makes total sense... Then reading the rebuttal and going YEAH! That makes total sense...

In the end I have more knowledge, but no greater opinion on the subject.


----------



## battletone

So I am confused on this single AF point thing....

Nikon has 50+ AF points, and can auto select the best one to use better than Canon.  Canon has 19 AF points, and can select its point, but is less good for whatever reason, but a single point is better than on Nikon.

*Here is what is confusing me.....  How come when you select a single point, the Canon was better?*  I guess what I am getting at is this:  Who cares they both must suck.  If the Canon cannot select the proper area as well, who cares if its point will be better...because it won't be the right area to focus on.  And who cares if Nikon picks the exact area to focus on, because its focus on that point is sub-par once it gets the correct point.
*So from the sound of it, your are screwed both ways.*


----------



## itznfb

battletone said:


> because its focus on that point is sub-par once it gets the correct point.



Sub-par? Really? :er:

Obviously I'm primarily a Nikon user but I've used both Nikon and Canon pretty extensively over the past couple years. In real world scenarios no pro or semi pro body I've used has ever caused me to miss a shot because of it's auto focus capabilities.

If your shots are ruined because they are out of focus. Guess what? It's your fault. Not Canon's or Nikon's.


----------



## IgsEMT

> If your shots are ruined because they are out of focus. Guess what? It's your fault. Not Canon's or Nikon's.


*AMEN TO THAT* :lmao:


----------



## inTempus

battletone said:


> Nikon has 50+ AF points, and can auto select the best one to use better than Canon.  Canon has 19 AF points, and can select its point, but is less good for whatever reason, but a single point is better than on Nikon.


Nikon has 51 AF points, only 15 of which are cross-type (e.g. more sensitive).

Canon has 45 AF points of which 19 are cross-type (1D3 body).

The new 1D4 has 45 AF points all of which are now cross-type sensors.  The new D3s still has 51 AF points with 15 cross-type.

Where are you reading that the 1D3 will select the wrong focus point and the D3 will select the right one?


----------



## battletone

inTempus said:


> battletone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nikon has 50+ AF points, and can auto select the best one to use better than Canon.  Canon has 19 AF points, and can select its point, but is less good for whatever reason, but a single point is better than on Nikon.
> 
> 
> 
> Nikon has 51 AF points, only 15 of which are cross-type (e.g. more sensitive).
> 
> Canon has 45 AF points of which 19 are cross-type (1D3 body).
> 
> The new 1D4 has 45 AF points all of which are now cross-type sensors.  The new D3s still has 51 AF points with 15 cross-type.
> 
> Where are you reading that the 1D3 will select the wrong focus point and the D3 will select the right one?
Click to expand...



It was a semi sarcastic remark at both companies.  It was in RE: to what you are Darrell were going back and forth on where you mentioned the single point was better on Canon and he said it doesn't matter because it wasn't auto selecting the point of a legitimate sports subject.

I got the impression that both fail rather than one winning if those statements are both true.


----------



## Wolverinepwnes

I wonder what he decided to get???? lol


----------



## Montana

Wolverinepwnes said:


> I wonder what he decided to get???? lol




LOL, me too.  Wonder if he'll ever come back to this forum?  LOL


----------



## saurabh

Montana said:


> Wolverinepwnes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what he decided to get???? lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, me too. Wonder if he'll ever come back to this forum? LOL
Click to expand...

 
Hey guys I am still here and have been following the whole discussion with curiosity and I agree with people who have recommended me to go to a store take both cameras side by side and comapre. I beleive that's what I am going to do and whichever feels good in hands and has a user friendly menu I will pick that one.
As far as this forum is concerned I think this is one of the best forums I have ever been to and soon I am going to be addictive. But very soon I need to get some time out and get my hands on one of those beauties...Good on you guys and keep up the good work.


----------



## Montana

Well, I am surprised you followed this thread at all.  You asked about the 7D and D300s and most of it ended up being about the 1DmkIII and D3  LOL.


----------



## Wolverinepwnes

have fun playing around with the two models! and either way you can't go wrong!


----------



## sanjeed1407

in Tempus, I was really getting panicked by Derrel's indication that action shooters are migrating from Canon to Nikon in flocks.  However, feel relieved from your points and reasoning that it's not the reality.  I had been to regional games events at 3 stadiums just 2 months ago and yes, white lenses outnumbered the black ones by big margin and felt proud mine was also one of those (although as a spectator I shot from high up in the stands and got great results).  Being mainly a hobbyist nature photographer (including wildlife and birds) I use a 450D body with some consumer lenses.  I added one great L lens to my arsenal 6 months ago and couldn't be happier with a lens.  It's an EF 400mm f/5.6L USM.  Plan to buy some more L lenses in near future.

May I hereby request your suggestion for a new body to meet my requirements?  Would be much obliged if your recommendation is supported by brief reasons necessary for my type of photography.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Formatted

> May I hereby request your suggestion for a new body to meet my requirements? Would be much obliged if your recommendation is supported by brief reasons necessary for my type of photography.



Great English! And very polite. But best to start a new thread if you wanted more targeted help. We will also need some more information about your budget, and would you mind using second hand equipment?

All the Best

J


----------



## sanjeed1407

Thnx Formatted.  In fact I don't want to get bogged down by budget constraints unless the gear is one of ID series (in our country there's a saying "ghosts organize funds for passions").  I'm contemplating either 5DMII or 7D.  Maintain certain reservations against both.  I'm against inclusion of video function on still cameras and cramming the sensor with high pixel counts.  Probably 40D would best meet my needs however, new ones are no longer available.  In my country (Bangladesh) old versions are also nearly unavailable.  Due to some unknown reasons it didn't perform well in our climatic conditions but I know it's a wonderful camera. Interestingly enough, the 7D was and still is such a sensation here that even some staunch Nikonians dumped their gears and picked it up (this includes those who don't really need it).

I would be fully contended had my 450D offered little higher ISO (say 3200) with 1600 as very usable, 5 fps burst and shutter speed upto 1/6000.  I can live with its AF as I have developed my own ways to exploit what is offered by this body.

Now may have your kind suggestions on what body should I buy next?  It's not an urgent need but would very much welcome and appreciate ideas. 

Thank you.


----------



## sanjeed1407

Thnx Derrel for the mail.  However, I would like to make my reply available to all for reading; hope u don't mind for that.

I'm convinced, Canon makes bodies to the plans and whims of its directors - not the actual users or photographers and it's not their new habit.  That's why it's packed with some cheap gimmicks, missing out on real needs.  U know success breeds 3 bad products, in short it's CAL.  Complacence, Arrogance and Loss of focus.  I don't know when will they recover from this ailment!

I shoot Canon mainly for its lenses.  They didn't make the same mistake here.  There's an wide array of glasses to choose from.  Nikon still doesn't offer equivalents to all of them as of today; not to mention that available ones are significantly pricier.


----------



## Sam6644

I was always a Nikon guy until the 7D came out. I switched over, and haven't looked back. 

Also, for the record, every event I ever shoot where I bump elbows with big time pro photographers, they're all using Canon. Every time. Always. I've yet to see any professional press photographer using a Nikon body while I've been on assignment.


----------



## Formatted

> Always. I've yet to see any professional press photographer using a Nikon body while I've been on assignment.


Before the D3 Nikon had a very small share of the market now it is 30% / 60% to Canon so what you may say is true. But its probably your experiences. There are many many Nikon Shooters. When Getty sent photographers to the Vancover olympics they provided them with Nikon Gear. 

So the trend is shifting thats because professionals don't give a rats arse about video. And more about high ISO performance and faster auto-focus!

For Full-Frame cameras.

D3 / D700 > 7D / 5D


----------



## cfusionpm

sanjeed1407 said:


> I'm convinced, Canon makes bodies to the plans and whims of its directors - not the actual users or photographers and it's not their new habit. That's why it's packed with some cheap gimmicks, missing out on real needs. U know success breeds 3 bad products, in short it's CAL. Complacence, Arrogance and Loss of focus. I don't know when will they recover from this ailment!


 
I don't know about you, but I'm an actual user and photographer, and I love Canon bodies.  They make design choices to put their cameras in specific categories, like the 5DII being one of the best studio cameras you can get for the money and the 7D being one of the best sports cameras you can get for the money.  Now, I wish they had a nice full frame speed camera like the D700 (even if it requires a grip to do so), but the extra reach of the 7D and 1D are perfect for most sports anyway.


----------



## gsgary

Bill Frakes favorite shots i wonder what make every shot was taken with
SI.com - Photo Gallery - Bill Frakes' Favorite Shots


----------



## mdtusz

Both perform equally well, but it bounces back every couple years or so. Right now Nikon leads the pack in my opinion though and they will continue to lead the pack with lenses for a long while I think. They are an optics company first and a camera company second. What many people don't know is that there are a lot more Nikkor lenses available than at first glance, they are just hard to come by for the everyday consumer.

I've seen it somewhere in someones sig here: If you wan't to buy Canon, get a printer

Someone also said a few pages back that no pros use Nikons... look again. Chase Jarvis, Joe McNally, David Hobby, those are just the ones that are popular too...


----------



## itznfb

gsgary said:


> Bill Frakes favorite shots i wonder what make every shot was taken with
> SI.com - Photo Gallery - Bill Frakes' Favorite Shots



If you keep clicking next it switches to a mug shot from a different series of photos. At first I was like why the hell is this a favorite? lol


----------



## KmH

Formatted said:


> Always. I've yet to see any professional press photographer using a Nikon body while I've been on assignment.
> 
> 
> 
> Before the D3 Nikon had a very small share of the market now it is 30% / 60% to Canon so what you may say is true.
Click to expand...

You need to provide a link to these figures.
I've seen numbers showing Nikon at 43.5% market share and Canon at 41.5 % market share with all the others: Pentax, Olympus Sony, et al splitting the remaining 15%.


----------



## cfusionpm

KmH said:


> Formatted said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Always. I've yet to see any professional press photographer using a Nikon body while I've been on assignment.
> 
> 
> 
> Before the D3 Nikon had a very small share of the market now it is 30% / 60% to Canon so what you may say is true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You need to provide a link to these figures.
> I've seen numbers showing Nikon at 43.5% market share and Canon at 41.5 % market share with all the others: Pentax, Olympus Sony, et al splitting the remaining 15%.
Click to expand...

 
What link do _you_ have for those numbers?


----------



## KmH

cfusionpm said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Formatted said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before the D3 Nikon had a very small share of the market now it is 30% / 60% to Canon so what you may say is true.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to provide a link to these figures.
> I've seen numbers showing Nikon at 43.5% market share and Canon at 41.5 % market share with all the others: Pentax, Olympus Sony, et al splitting the remaining 15%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What link do _you_ have for those numbers?
Click to expand...

My point exactly.

Are we speaking of Japan, the US, Worldwide? No, none of those qualifiers were given.

Without a way to measure verasity of the figures or the context, the numbers are meaningless.


----------



## cfusionpm

I would also like to add some anecdotal evidence in that at the Formula D drifting event I was at yesterday, I saw maybe 50/50 distribution up in the stands.  However, in the media press area (and those with the yellow media vests), it was more like 80/20 in favor of Canon.  Again, maybe not so important in the grand scheme of things, but it was definitely something I noticed. :thumbup:


----------



## sanjeed1407

Market share doesn't necessarily indicate quality in all cases.  Toyota was and probably still is the market leader in light vehicle sales in the US.  However, millions of units have been recalled recently due to their faulty acceleration systems.

Probably 7D and D300s are good cameras (what this thread is all about).  But we will know their actual qualities a little later after the hype cools down.


----------



## cfusionpm

I think the biggest point that may be completely missed is that it really doesnt matter which is better. Hear me out now:

If you are new to photography or are graduating from a point and shoot, you will likely turn to an entry level DSLR like a Rebel or D5000. From there, the progression will likely be up through the respective brands. Rather than doing the in-between-dance, the 7D is the first camera that Canon aims directly at Nikon. As a result, its more or less the same as the D300s with some minor differences. Higher resolution sensor, ever so slightly faster burst, and better movie mode, but has a louder shutter and lacks secondary card slot. 

My point though, is if you own Nikon, you'll buy the D300s. If you own Canon, you'll buy the 7D. I highly doubt people will cross shop these cameras unless they're one of those few who want to dive right into a $1,700 camera as a starter. It's a monumental (and expensive) pain to jump ship from one to the other. I would imagine people would be far more inclined to cross shop the 7D with 50D and 5DmII and the D300s with D90 and D700. 

The whole argument is silly, but its one that's necessary for advancement in products! If there wasn't such stiff competition, companies wouldn't be desparately trying to out-do each other. So it's all good for us-- the consumer. :thumbup:


----------



## sanjeed1407

As I said, I shoot Canon mainly due to its awesome "L" lenses that includes some excellent affordable versions as well.  One of those is the great EF 400mm f/5.6L USM retailing at around $ 1,300/-. This is probably the best BIF lens on the market.  Here are some pictures including BIF shots with this lens mounted on a 7D body:

7D - Mid to heavy crop performance - FM Forums

Being a hobbyist nature photographer; these images get excellent rating in my eyes.


----------



## Misfitlimp

sanjeed1407 said:


> As I said, I shoot Canon mainly due to its awesome "L" lenses that includes some excellent affordable versions as well.  One of those is the great EF 400mm f/5.6L USM retailing at around $ 1,300/-. This is probably the best BIF lens on the market.  Here are some pictures including BIF shot with this lens mounted on a 7D body:
> 
> 7D - Mid to heavy crop performance - FM Forums
> 
> Being a hobbyist nature photographer; these images get excellent rating in my eyes.



Dont see the pic of the lens mounted to the body


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## sanjeed1407

> Dont see the pic of the lens mounted to the body



For that purpose u need to view EXIF data of those shots.  If u need a package for doing so; download google's "Exif Viewer", it's free.

In case u have time for mine; here's a shot followed by an image of the equipment (mine is a 450D body):


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## sanjeed1407

It's established that Nikon bodies are made to cater to photographers needs while Canon bodies play to the gallery.  No photographer on earth asked for more megapixels following introduction of 12 mp bodies.  What they need are better ISO performance and cleaner images.

A gallery show with 7D is really weird as gallery people are not the buyers of Prosumer models.  Those who haven't gotten into DSLR use, should think twice re what to choose.  The options are:

i.  Canon lenses are great and offers wider variety at reasonable prices compared to Nikon.  However, their bodies lack photographers' requirements and pack gimmicky features.

ii.  Nikon bodies are the best and cater exactly to photographers' needs.  But their lenses offer narrower variety and pricier compared to Canon.

It is anticipated this ironies will continue for years to come.


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## Montana

^ more uneducated comments.......


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## cfusionpm

Yeah, it's not like anyone wants more detail in their images or ever crops them down while wanting to maintain high res.  Oh wait...


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## Live_free

These are the kind of posts where everyone and their grandma seems to come out of the woodwork claiming they are a scientist. Or at least know everything as to help the OP make a decision solely on their post. 


Oh the irony...

To the OP, I will tell you what I tell everyone making a decision like this. All the gigapixels, wahatmacalits, gizmos and gadgets in the world arent gonna help if don't feel comfortable holding your camera.  Go to the store, hold them, go with gut feeling. Have a great day.


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## CxThree

Leave granny out of this..


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## sanjeed1407

Grandma came out of woodwork only to discover - kids eating dirt.


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## RONDAL

sanjeed1407 said:


> It's established that Nikon bodies are made to cater to photographers needs while Canon bodies play to the gallery. No photographer on earth asked for more megapixels following introduction of 12 mp bodies. What they need are better ISO performance and cleaner images.
> 
> A gallery show with 7D is really weird as gallery people are not the buyers of Prosumer models. Those who haven't gotten into DSLR use, should think twice re what to choose. The options are:
> 
> i. Canon lenses are great and offers wider variety at reasonable prices compared to Nikon. However, their bodies lack photographers' requirements and pack gimmicky features.
> 
> ii. Nikon bodies are the best and cater exactly to photographers' needs. But their lenses offer narrower variety and pricier compared to Canon.
> 
> It is anticipated this ironies will continue for years to come.


 

i'm going to state this at the outset, i'm a nikon shooter.
BUT

the above poster is full of $hit and has no idea what he is talking about.
talk about spewing misinformation.  
i'd ask you to back up your comments but i know you can't, so i am going to call you out on them.


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## Live_free

RONDAL said:


> sanjeed1407 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's established that Nikon bodies are made to cater to photographers needs while Canon bodies play to the gallery. No photographer on earth asked for more megapixels following introduction of 12 mp bodies. What they need are better ISO performance and cleaner images.
> 
> A gallery show with 7D is really weird as gallery people are not the buyers of Prosumer models. Those who haven't gotten into DSLR use, should think twice re what to choose. The options are:
> 
> i. Canon lenses are great and offers wider variety at reasonable prices compared to Nikon. However, their bodies lack photographers' requirements and pack gimmicky features.
> 
> ii. Nikon bodies are the best and cater exactly to photographers' needs. But their lenses offer narrower variety and pricier compared to Canon.
> 
> It is anticipated this ironies will continue for years to come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm going to state this at the outset, i'm a nikon shooter.
> BUT
> 
> the above poster is full of $hit and has no idea what he is talking about.
> talk about spewing misinformation.
> i'd ask you to back up your comments but i know you can't, so i am going to call you out on them.
Click to expand...


Thank you for pointing that out as I thought he was right, you sir, deserve a medal.


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## Sw1tchFX

I'm going to stick what i said on the fist page:

The 16-85 is a better lens, but the 7D is a better body.

I'd go with the Nikon though because of the 16-85, and i'd supplement it with the 35 1.8. I also <3 D2xModeIII. 

But I also <3 the video and the shape of the 7D in the hand. 

can't go wrong with both, that's for sure.


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## FrankLamont

And you're obviously putting more dirt out there with your nonsense.


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## sanjeed1407

RONDAL said:


> i'm going to state this at the outset, i'm a nikon shooter.
> BUT
> 
> the above poster is full of $hit and has no idea what he is talking about.
> talk about spewing misinformation.
> i'd ask you to back up your comments but i know you can't, so i am going to call you out on them.



Rotten garbage.


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## emh

I'm obviously late to this thread and I like a good Canon-Nikon fight just as much as anyone else. I'm also very much a newbie at this photography stuff, so maybe I'm totally off here, but...

To me, it seems the OP plans on spending a bit too much of his/her budget on the body. On a $2500 budget, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to get a sub-$1000 body (say a D90 or a 50D) and spend most of the money on a couple of decent lenses, maybe a good flash, filters etc.?


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## CxThree

EMH, that's the changing world of cameras we see today.  Last year, I would have agreed with you 100%.  However, the new bodies have such great highISO performance and the AF ssytem on the Canon is leaps above older bodies.  It's a bit harder to decide on where to invest.  I wind up using my F4 lens way more than my 2.8 now days.


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## Harpy

Sw1tchFX said:


> the 16-85VR is a better lens than the Canon 18-135 for sure.


 
I AGREE! Have both camera's and i prefer the Canon. The quality of your pictures is better


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## sanjeed1407

I think the summary is - Canon EOS 7D is a good camcorder while Nikon D300s is a great DSLR.


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## cfusionpm

sanjeed1407 said:


> I think the summary is - Canon EOS 7D is a good camcorder while Nikon D300s is a great DSLR.


Except the 7D is also an absolutely fantastic DSLR too.


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## CxThree

I shoot with both of them.  They both are great.   I would be happy with either one if forced to use only one.  

I would suggest  you go with the one that feels right in your hands.  Menu layour, button placement, etc.  Which one feels more natural to you.  

You really cannot go wrong with either one.


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## sanjeed1407

Anyone wanting to start off still photography for outdoor and action shots has many choices for a great DSLR. Out of all, Nikon D300s delivers the best results.


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## cfusionpm

sanjeed1407 said:


> Anyone wanting to start off still photography for outdoor and action shots has many choices for a great DSLR. Out of all, Nikon D300s delivers the best results.


 
This is based on... what? Smaller resolution? Slower burst rate? 

As written by CameraLabs:



> Nikon&#8217;s D300s is without a doubt the main rival for the EOS 7D. In the past Canon and Nikon used to pitch many of their DSLRs in-between each other, so you&#8217;d have, say, the EOS 50D roughly sandwiched between the D90 and D300. But with the EOS 7D, Canon&#8217;s aiming for the same high-end cropped-sensor market as Nikon&#8217;s D300s &#8211; and with similar pricing, both cameras are absolutely going head-to-head.
> 
> There&#8217;s certainly *a lot of* *similarities* between the two rivals. Both have tough build quality, APS-C sized CMOS sensors, 100% viewfinders with roughly the same apparent size (the 7D&#8217;s fractionally greater magnification off-set by its fractionally smaller sensor), both have 3in screens with VGA resolution, built-in wireless control of flash guns, HDMI ports, on-demand LCD graphics in the viewfinder, external microphone jacks for their movie modes, electronic levelling gauges, metering systems which take colour information into account, and shutter blocks rated at 150k actuations. Both models also sport HD video capabilities, very fast continuous shooting and sophisticated AF systems, but it&#8217;s the fine detail within each where the differences really emerge.
> 
> Starting with the most obvious difference though, the *EOS 7D boasts 18 Megapixels* to the *D300s&#8217; 12 Megapixels*. When equipped with a decent lens, *the 7D certainly can resolve more detail than the D300s*, and despite having 50% more pixels in total, *the noise levels are actually quite similar* at the lower end of the range. You can see a full report in our results section.
> 
> In terms of comparing numbers though, the 7D has more than just higher resolution in its favour. It has *double the maximum sensitivity* (12800 ISO versus 6400 ISO), *slightly quicker continuous shooting* (8fps versus 7fps for the bodies alone *and the advantage of maintaining this for 14-bit RAW files when the D300s falls in speed*), and the choice of HD video resolution and frame rates, when the D300s only offers 1280x720 fixed at 24fps. The 7D also comes with free remote control software.
> 
> In its favour, the* D300s boasts dual memory card slots* allowing you to record duplicate images to both cards for instant backup, or RAW files to one and JPEGs to the other for easier management. It also features much *better exposure bracketing* (up to nine frames compared to just three on the 7D), a *built-in intervalometer* and *many more auto-focusing points* (51 versus 19) although it&#8217;s* lacking the 7D&#8217;s zoning and other innovative AF options*.
> 
> Ultimately while the dual card slots, 51 AF points and exposure bracketing are definite advantages over the EOS 7D, the *Canon is better-featured overall*. But at this level a great deal boils down to *personal preferences on ergonomics and brand loyalty*, not to mention existing investments in lenses and accessories. As such we expect the D300s to remain a big seller despite its toughest competition yet. One thing&#8217;s for certain: *Nikon no longer has the high-end APS-C market to itself*."


 
Canon EOS 7D review: verdict, 7D vs 50D vs 5D Mark II vs D300s | Cameralabs

So they're about equal, but the Canon has a higher res sensor and faster burst rate that can shoot for more shots, while the Nikon has more auto bracket options, dual card slots (though not both CF...), and more autofocus points (though fewer cross type points, and fewer AF selection modes).

With the Canon and some good glass, you'll be able to get off more shots per second and be able to crop them tighter if needed, thanks to the higher res images. And the great new AF system ensures shots are well tracked. Sounds absolutely perfect for "outdoor and action" photography. :thumbup:


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## Mbnmac

I'd be inclined to listen to any side of the story if it wasn't being given with pseudo-intellectual BS and backhanded compliments.

To the OP; as all have said, go try em for yourself, as has been shown by all the 'facts' in this thread, there is no real 'better' every time a new lens or camera is made, it'll be better than the other recent model, whoever's it is.

I'm in a similar situation, and settled on a nikon d90 as I like the feel way more than a canon, it fits nicer, do yourself a favor and don't get caught in the pissing matches of people trying to justify why they bought the camera they did


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## sanjeed1407

I met a veteran outdoor pro photog recently who worked in NY as a freelancer.  He emphatically declared - for good images 80% contribution comes from the photog and 20% from gears.  So, no need to give a damn to which gear you use, if you know photography; even a point & shoot will get it for you.


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## AlexL

Just to throw off all the argument here and I'll declare Sony the overall winner of DSLRs.


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## zwdb08

I shoot with a canon 20d and a ef300L , and i have shot with people using a D300S and the pictures when reviewed in camera looked superior on the d300 and it was using a 200-500 tamron, also it seemed on the pc that the d300 pictures required less editing to create a print. is this typical? 
so which is better straight from the camera, the d300s or 7d, that is the selling point for me. i want a camera that delivers what i see, and produces more keepers. my 20d seems to have very poor focusing as most images require quite a bit of editing to make them pop especially over iso 400, L glass does help give it better contrast and pop. I also believe that canon may underexpose about 1/2 to one stop ,at least that is how the images look when they come back, where the d300 seemed to produce more like what you see, like the metering maybe more accurate. Now to me focus accuracy and metering accuracy are way more important than 7fps to 8fps, or sensor size etc, 
just which camera produces good results straight from the camera ?


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## zwdb08

I am contemplating stepping up from my canon 20d and was looking to the 7d or d300s or d700 and switching to Nikon, as i am really frustrated by my inconsistancies with my 20d my images usually look flat and dull not at all what i would expect, without tons of editing to make them look good. The focus seems to be a tad off. When i was shooting birds in my back yard they seemed slightly soft or out of focus so i thought maybe shutter speed so i kicked it up to 1/2000 etc still no good so i kicked the aperature to f 8.0 or f 11.0 stilll no better.. so needless to say this is frustrating and the birds are only about 10 feet away.
i love to shoot birds and wild life.
was thinking i would also need at400 mm lens for a bit more reach that my 300 ? does IS, or VR replace a good tripod?
as well


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