# Any car guys/gals in the house?



## unpopular (Sep 14, 2015)

My 04 Dodge Durango, V8 5.7L Hemi has a ticking noise. I figured it was a "hemi tick" or at worst, a lifter problem. Upon inspection I have come to the conclusion that it was broken exhaust bolts.

- The sound increases in frequency with engine speed
- The sound is nearly inaudible at the valve cover
- The sound is loudest under the car and near the front wheel wells
- The sound seems to be coming from the manifold heat shield area
- The ticking is loudest on the passenger side, which the muffler guy said most of the bolts are broken
- The sound seems modestly louder after driving a bit
- The sound is typically inaudible inside the cabin, unless next to a wall with the windows rolled down
- The sound is occasionally audible inside at around 2.3K, but only at load, never in park and is loudest when moving up hill

From this information, would you also conclude the issue is exhaust related, or should I still be concerned of a more pressing issue?


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## Wizard1500 (Sep 14, 2015)

If I thought it was exhaust bolts, I would try them, one at a time.   I may be wrong, but I wouldn't think it would tick....but, I've driven diesels for years.....


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## runnah (Sep 14, 2015)

Metal on metal ticking?

Could be that the bolts on the exhaust manifold have broken and the manifold is slightly slapping against the block creating the ticking noise.

Could also be an heat shield rattling around.

Is the ticking in sync with the cylinders firing? Meaning when the engine goes "chug-chug-chug" the noise goes "tick-tick-tick"?


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## JohnnyWrench (Sep 14, 2015)

Can you see the bolts in question? If they were broken... wouldn't the heads be gone?  Or could rust be keeping the hex heads in place while the length of the bolt is broken?  

This seems like a question for a Dodge Forum.


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## Braineack (Sep 14, 2015)

can post a video to youtube?   exhaust leaks sound like what you describe.


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## unpopular (Sep 14, 2015)

Wizard1500 said:


> If I thought it was exhaust bolts, I would try them, one at a time.   I may be wrong, but I wouldn't think it would tick....but, I've driven diesels for years.....



From what I gather, it is a common thing to confuse.



runnah said:


> Is the ticking in sync with the cylinders firing? Meaning when the engine goes "chug-chug-chug" the noise goes "tick-tick-tick"?



Yes. In fact, I think that it is possible that within the cabin the ticking is over-powered by the "putting" sound of the exhaust. The exhaust is loud, but hemis are pretty loud engines, too.



JohnnyWrench said:


> Can you see the bolts in question? If they were broken... wouldn't the heads be gone?  Or could rust be keeping the hex heads in place while the length of the bolt is broken?
> 
> This seems like a question for a Dodge Forum.



Cross posted 

Driving around with broken exhaust header bolts is pretty common. Not sure how everything holds in place.


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## Dave442 (Sep 14, 2015)

Have you held a wooden rod (old broom handle) up against the areas in question with your ear to the other end?  This can help isolate a sound. 

I had a spun bearing one time that gave a clicking sound and that is best heard under the car near the front of the engine (in the case of the front crankshaft bearing being the culprit).


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## tirediron (Sep 14, 2015)

It very definitely sounds exhaust related to me, and the fact that it doesn't seem to go away or reduce in intensity the longer you drive _probably_ rules out a cracked manifold.  If "most" of the manifold bolts are broken on one side, that is a pressing problem.  Hide thee out with drill and tap (and your best tractor-starting words) to effect repair.

Edit:  This:  "_The sound increases in frequency with engine speed_" doesn't fit with the broken bolt theory however.  Does it increase w/ engine RPM even when cold, or going from curb idle to say 1500RPM?  When you lift the hood with the engine at operating temperature and idling, is there any indication of exhaust under the hood?


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## Trever1t (Sep 14, 2015)

If you come to the conclusion that it's loose or broken bolts, why not fix it? Like Chevy, Hemis do have a tick, some louder than others.

I Drive a 2015 scat pack with a 392 I've only got 3500 miles and I have a little bit of a tick.


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## unpopular (Sep 14, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Edit:  This:  "_The sound increases in frequency with engine speed_" doesn't fit with the broken bolt theory however.  Does it increase w/ engine RPM even when cold, or going from curb idle to say 1500RPM?  When you lift the hood with the engine at operating temperature and idling, is there any indication of exhaust under the hood?



The ticking sound is always present, but gets louder after it comes to temperature. When absolutely cold, it's noticeable, but quiet - so yes. If I put it in idle park, it will tick ... tick ... tick, and get faster with acceleration to about 2K, at which point it seems drowned out by the engine noise.

It doesn't seem to be loud enough to be heard in the cabin, except when the engine is warm and the is in drive. Never in park or going driving down hill. 

I've revved the engine to 4K and have never heard the sound inside while parked, only sometimes while driving starting around 2.3K, which would suggest that it gets louder with acceleration when under load (does that make sense?).

I *know* that there are broken bolts. This has already been determined by a muffler specialist. I'm just concerned if something else, something more substantial, could be responsible for the tick.

But no. I have not noticed any fumes under the hood or in the cabin, however, the fan on this engine is always on, so it might be blown out away from the leak.



Trever1t said:


> If you come to the conclusion that it's loose or broken bolts, why not fix it? Like Chevy, Hemis do have a tick, some louder than others.
> 
> I Drive a 2015 scat pack with a 392 I've only got 3500 miles and I have a little bit of a tick.



I am going to get the bolts fixed, And yeah, it could just be a hemi tick. Just reading online all the horror stories.... you know how people are, they only post about bad experiences.

I don't think it's a lifter issue, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me for it to be loudest underneath the vehicle. Unmistakable lifter problems also have a different quality, more like a poorly maintained sewing machine. Under the hood, it just sounds like a higher-milage engine - old, whirring bearings on the AC compressor and alternator pulleys, and some modest valve action and fuel injector sounds - nothing out of the ordinary.

I know that sound can travel in weird ways, but you really have to listen for it under the hood even after it's been driven around and is loudest, and even then it sounds more like it's from the bowels than the top. It also doesn't sound like it's coming from the front of the engine, either.

I'll use a vacuum tube to get a better idea tomorrow.


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## tirediron (Sep 14, 2015)

How many miles & how long since you replaced your serpentine belt & idler (if applicable)?


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## unpopular (Sep 14, 2015)

tirediron said:


> How many miles & how long since you replaced your serpentine belt & idler (if applicable)?



We just bought it with 143K. Pre-purchase inspection was clean, and we've had it at the dealer for a tuneup.

Neither reported any serious problems, but neither reported the broken bolts either. It had original plugs, and the plugs were reported in "good condition", no sign of damage, oil deposites, etc. We've put about 1000 miles on it, oil is clean on the stick, no signs of deposits. The crank case smells like clean oil, not burned up sludge. Clear exhaust at 4K. Judging by the pre-purchase inspection, it seems well taken care of, aside from a nasty permanent air filter that I just ended up replacing (it was stupid big, sat too low anyway) and being about 40K miles overdue for plugs.

I kind of understand the air filter, since when you get the oil changed they'll always say "you have a permanent filter that needs to be cleaned", and you drive off and forget about it. And the cost for a tuneup on this thing is like $200-300, so I get how that could be put off for a couple years, too.

But, they put in new brakes and refinished the drums recently. Interior and exterior is good, and there seems to have been a degree of pride of ownership. We are the third owner, according to Carfax.

Serpentine is in good shape. Idlers, IDK. I asked them to check when I had the tuneup done, but I didn't get any word back about that and forgot to ask. There is/was an occasional " bird chirp" that sounds like an idler, especially on cool mornings. We'll see if it comes back, but it was about 70 or 80 degrees when I had it in, so they probably didn't hear it.

I do notice some very slight variation in idle speed when the air conditioner is on, maybe 100-200 RPM. If the idle speed weren't as low as it is (500 RPM), I probably wouldn't even notice it.


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## unpopular (Sep 14, 2015)

BTW - I would NOT classify this as a "chatter" sound. It's a distinct tick...tick...tick, not the clippyclickclippyclickclippyclick that you get in very ill-sounding engines.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

Gots AC?


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

Yes. Works fine.


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## JimMcClain (Sep 15, 2015)

A muffler professional reports "most of the bolts are broken" and you come here to a photographer hangout for advice?


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

Don't know why photographers have to act like snarky tweenagers all the time.

I think this is the third time mentioning this. I know the bolts are broken, the question is if the tick is consistent with that.


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## runnah (Sep 15, 2015)

Oh yeah for sure. Exhaust pieces aren't threaded so if the head of the bolt is snapped off than it will allow the header to slap against the block in time with the exhaust.


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## Dave442 (Sep 15, 2015)

Hopefully the bolts that are broken off have enough of the bolt still sticking out of the block to allow simple removal. But exhaust bolts can be frozen in and could be the reason the bolts are broken, someone else tried to remove them. With rusted in parts, heat will often work, but the best is probably to pull the engine to give enough room to grind, drill and extract.


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## runnah (Sep 15, 2015)

This is why I hate american cars, they cheap out in the worst places! I helped a friend tear down an early 90's BMW engine that had seen many miles, not a single snapped bolt or rusted on one.


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## Braineack (Sep 15, 2015)

and SAE tools should be illegal.


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

runnah said:


> This is why I hate american cars, they cheap out in the worst places! I helped a friend tear down an early 90's BMW engine that had seen many miles, not a single snapped bolt or rusted on one.



Was thinking about getting a big BMW sedan, size was a big factor in our choice, but the price seemed too good to be true.


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## Braineack (Sep 15, 2015)

it was probably off lease so the previous owner pretty much paid for all the depreciation and half the cost...


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## minicoop1985 (Sep 15, 2015)

Sounds almost like lifter tick to me.  But if it's exhaust, then it's exhaust.


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

No, it was at a Dealer. 

Something just didn't set well with me. We didn't have a reliable car at the time, and the BMW was in Cour d'Laine, so I'd have to rent one and make pre-inspection arrangements ahead of time, so we didn't even go to look.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

unpopular said:


> Yes. Works fine.


So that probably rules out a dicky AC clutch...


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

minicoop1985 said:


> Sounds almost like lifter tick to me.  But if it's exhaust, then it's exhaust.



It sounds like a lifter, but it's just not in the right place at least as far as I can tell. It could still be if it was a lifter located in the rear of the engine, the sound could ricochet off the firewall. Like I said, I'll get a vacuum tube and poke around.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

JimMcClain said:


> A muffler professional reports "most of the bolts are broken" and you come here to a photographer hangout for advice?


Photographers can't know something about mechanics?


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

tirediron said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Works fine.
> ...



lol. you said "dicky".

I was thinking about that, it seemed to be worse when the AC was off. But at the same time, but it turned out just to be more noticeable without the blower noise. Like I said, it's BARELY noticeable from inside the cabin, of audible at all.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

runnah said:


> Oh yeah for sure. Exhaust pieces aren't threaded so if the head of the bolt is snapped off than it will allow the header to slap against the block in time with the exhaust.


BUT... when operating at say 2500 RPM, there are going to be 1250 exhaust strokes per minute which translates into just over 150 a second.  Even if it's only one port (not sure whether this uses a 'header' style manifold or not) that's 20-40 a second from which I would expect to hear a continual buzz rather than distinct 'tap' 'tap' 'tap'.

Fixing the bolts isn't a major job, but I'd do both sides, since if one has let go, chances are the other isn't far behind, and then see what sort of noises you get. If it's gone, bonus, if not...  we start over again.  I wouldn't leave this too long since there can be a number of serious issues, not the least of which is CO in the passenger compartment and you large-format guys are slow enough already without that.


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## Braineack (Sep 15, 2015)

@tirediron  METRIC FOR LIFE.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

Braineack said:


> @tirediron  METRIC FOR LIFE.


Nooooooooooooooo!


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah for sure. Exhaust pieces aren't threaded so if the head of the bolt is snapped off than it will allow the header to slap against the block in time with the exhaust.
> ...



Well. If you listen to the exhaust as you accelerate, you can hear BRUM...BRUM...BRUM..BRUM..BRUM.BRUM.BRUM.BUMBUMBUMBUM, and the tick seems in line with that.

When the engine is full roar, around 2.5K, you can't really distinguish it, inside or out.

It's of course possible, if not likely, that the tap I'm hearing at load is unrelated.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

I would say the odds are high that it's related somehow, but at 143K, there are a LOT of things that could be causing a noise.  Pick up a mechanic's stethoscope and see if you can localize the noise.


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## waday (Sep 15, 2015)

unpopular said:


> I know the bolts are broken, the question is if the tick is consistent with that.


I'm always one for needing to fix something that's broken. I also have no idea what car repair costs. So, sorry if I'm being dense/ignorant, but why not fix the broken bolts (assuming they're not outrageously expensive to fix)? If that doesn't solve the ticking, at least you'll have non-broken bolts...


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## runnah (Sep 15, 2015)

waday said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > I know the bolts are broken, the question is if the tick is consistent with that.
> ...



Ever try to extract broken bolts out of an engine block? Its a horrible massive pain in the ass. Unless of course you have a subaru and all the exhaust manifold bolts are located on the bottom on the engine.


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## runnah (Sep 15, 2015)

unpopular said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



Starting to think it's a valve issue at this point. If it's RPM dependent and happens even when the engine is cold. Exhaust leaks/issues tend to get worse as things heat up and expand.


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## waday (Sep 15, 2015)

runnah said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > unpopular said:
> ...


I have not, but I do have a Subaru. Haha. That makes sense. Just wasn't sure if it was feasible to replace or not.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

runnah said:


> ...Ever try to extract broken bolts out of an engine block? Its a horrible massive pain in the ass. Unless of course you have a subaru and all the exhaust manifold bolts are located on the bottom on the engine.


Life is much easier if you pull the block.  If there's any stud left, MiG a bolt onto it, soak it with penetrating oil and hope for the best.  Chances are it won't give up in which case, cut it off, grind flush, and drill the old stud out.  Replace with a Heli-coil.


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## JimMcClain (Sep 15, 2015)

tirediron said:


> JimMcClain said:
> 
> 
> > A muffler professional reports "most of the bolts are broken" and you come here to a photographer hangout for advice?
> ...


_Something_, maybe. Who knows, maybe there's even a professional mechanic who is also a photographer and a member here. But given the vast resources of the Internet, the last place I would ask a mechanical question, especially one about a ticking noise with no known source other than under the vehicle somewhere, would be a photo forum. It's not like there aren't any automotive forums populated by enthusiasts and experts.

But hey, I don't want to ruin anyone's fun. It's certainly not against the rules, as far as I know. If I had a problem with my car, I'd be asking at JeepKJ.com; if it were a problem with my floor, I'd go to TheFloorPro.com; if I had health related problems, I might try eHealthForums.com - there are a million forums for a million issues. That's just me. They pretty much all have a general chat forum where you can ask about anything unrelated. Getting the right answer is not very good odds though.


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## Dave442 (Sep 15, 2015)

Photographers are cheaper than mechanics.


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## runnah (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet.


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

JimMcClain said:


> But hey, I don't want to ruin anyone's fun. It's certainly not against the rules, as far as I know.



It's not like we're talking about smoking weed.


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## tirediron (Sep 15, 2015)

JimMcClain said:


> .... If I had a problem with my car, I'd be asking at JeepKJ.com; if it were a problem with my floor, I'd go to TheFloorPro.com; if I had health related problems, I might try eHealthForums.com - there are a million forums for a million issues. That's just me. They pretty much all have a general chat forum where you can ask about anything unrelated. Getting the right answer is not very good odds though.


People are different... If_ I_ had those problems, I would likely consult a mechanic, a flooring contractor, or a doctor.  The problem with any forum, anywhere, is that anyone can be an expert!


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## JimMcClain (Sep 15, 2015)

tirediron said:


> The problem with any forum, anywhere, is that anyone can be an expert!


Not on my flooring forum. The experts are real, live experts in their fields - they have to prove it before getting that level of membership. The pros who share their knowledge on the Jeep KJ forum I belong to are also known and respected in the industry. I'm just saying it's not the 1990s anymore. We can't categorize the level of expertise and professionalism of forums so broadly anymore. Facebook, yes, unfortunately.


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

JimMcClain said:


> Not on my flooring forum. The experts are real



The internet is full of wannabe flooring experts.


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## unpopular (Sep 15, 2015)

(and for what it's worth, I posted to dodgetalk.com before posting here)


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## JimMcClain (Sep 15, 2015)

unpopular said:


> The internet is full of wannabe flooring experts.


Absolutely. But some forums are run by real people who know a little about their niche and who actually have a hands-on attitude about managing their websites. I use my real name. Decades worth of industry events, personal & professional contacts with a variety of associations, luminaries in every segment of the industry and access, as the owner/admin of my website, to information that  assures me that those who claim to be pros, are in fact pros. Pros on my forum get special recognition so that visitors will know they are talking to a pro.

But even pros can disagree in their methods and opinions. Some pros are better than others, even in the same area of expertise. It isn't my job to research or validate every nuance, but I do make sure people know when advice comes from a DIYer as opposed to a pro. I make sure everyone has access to manufacturer supplied instructions and requirements. And I run a tight ship - I've been providing support services and administering forums (not just flooring related) for over 20 years.

My pro members and I are not wannabe flooring experts. We may be wannabes in a lot of fields of interest, like photography, auto mechanics or whatever, but we are experts in flooring. And the best thing about being a professional on my forum is that every one of us understands that learning never stops and we don't have every answer. But we can help find it.


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## Tailgunner (Sep 15, 2015)

I've turned a few wrenches in my time. This could be anything, worn or lose asseccory belts, low oil pressure/low oil, exhaust leaks etc. It's hard to tell without being there in person but I would start with the broken exhaust bolts since this is a known possible culprit and probably an easy fix. I would still check your belts too, my mom pulled up to the house one day complaining about a similar noise issue. I poped the hood and to my amazement, her belt was only held together by a handful of threads. The broken/tethered/worn pieces was slapping everything as the engine turned.


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## crzyfotopeeple (Sep 15, 2015)

I bought a Volkswagen. Will it last?


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## scaryloud (Oct 2, 2015)

I had a similar problem with a "ticking" noise.  Turns out oil pump was bad and ticking was in lower half of engine.  Engine needed to be overhauled/replaced.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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