# Frustrated - New Extension Tubes and Distortion



## Kosteniuk_Fan (Apr 5, 2012)

Hello, 


Yesterday the extension tubes I ordered online - lengths 31mm, 21mm, and 13mm - arrived and I attached them onto my Canon Rebel XS DSLR with the 100mm USM Macro lens I have for it. 


Three issues with this


1.) 


For some reason the camera I have an issue with the camera focusing. No matter what I seem to do it sometimes doesnt focus, and when I say that I mean there is no beep sound with the green-light telling me it is set, thereby meaning if I click the shutter button down it will inevitably be distorted. I change the shutter speed, the F-stop?, etc. without luck. Looking through the viewfinder, the subject looks crystal clear, but the camera doesnt focus? Other times it spontaneously focuses and I dont know why? So much of my time with the extension tubes on is spent looking through the viewfinder, changing the angle and/or the settings, focusing the lens, and nothing happens?


Why is this happening? 


2.)


Most of the time the photos I take come out somewhat distorted, and I want to know why that is and how to change it. Will post an example. 



3.)


What is the deal with tripods? Macrophotography seems like a lose-lose situation to me right now. When I use a tripod it takes too long to set up and the insect will by then have flown or run away, and if I dont use the tripod I have to deal with camera shake. Any advice for this? Ive been doing it handheld because I can rest the camera or lean on something whereas the tripod seems to be a permanent handicap. Advice?


Thanks.


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## Judobreaker (Apr 5, 2012)

1. Turn off auto-focus.
Your camera will not be able to find its focus very well when working on such magnifications. Learn to focus manually and your images improve enormously.

2. I'm not sure what kind of distortion I'm looking for...

3. Macro with a tripod is very possible, just not advisable with moving subjects like insects in most cases.
To deal with camera shake: First make sure you have a good flash. Faster shutter speeds result in sharper images.
Next try and learn some 'sniper skills' (it actually might help if you read up on some real army sniper skills, it did for me).
Lastly, you could try and use a monopod. They're not as cumbersome as tripods and help loads when it comes to reducing camera shake.


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## Kosteniuk_Fan (Apr 5, 2012)

1.) The camera and lens are on manual focus. Autofocus does nothing for me. The camera (or lens) is totally confused and it is worthless. Still, though, when using the lens strictly, or only the 31mm tube, the camera still beeps at me when it is focused regardless of whether it is manual or not. 

2.) You don't think the photo is distorted? Doesn't look as crisp and clear as others' do&#8230;?

3.) I can't afford it right now but I am wanting to order a macro-ring flash in the coming few months. Monopods sound interesting. I've never seen one before. And what about snipping skills? What is it you mean by that?


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## mjhoward (Apr 5, 2012)

Kosteniuk_Fan said:


> 2.) You don't think the photo is distorted? Doesn't look as crisp and clear as others' do?



Thats not lens distortion, that is operator error.


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## Big Mike (Apr 5, 2012)

> And what about snipping skills? What is it you mean by that?


I'm just guessing at this point, but I think that you'd find it has techniques for holding your gun (camera) as steady as possible.  For example, I believe that the best time to take the photo, is when you are exhaling, because that is when your body is the most still.  Snipers have techniques to get the most accurate shot...photographers can use the same techniques to get the sharpest photos (least amount of blur from camera shake).


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## Actinometro (Apr 5, 2012)

Doing macro with extension tubes you loose a lot of light plus putting/removing tubes is not practical and you risk dust in your camera sensor.

The solution I found consists in using a lens adapter. I use Raynox dcr-250 and I am very happy with it. No light lost, good IQ and I put/remove it in 2 seconds.

These photos http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/macro-photography/279136-three-row.html were shot with it plus Nikkor 85 micro vr (handheld).


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## cgipson1 (Apr 5, 2012)

Macro focus should be done manually anyway.

Did you order cheap non-contact type extension tubes?


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## Overread (Apr 5, 2012)

Points to consider:

1) Macro photography is very challenging for AF sensors to work with. Reduced light and amplified motions as well as back and forth sway make it very hard for most cameras to get a reliable lock. Shift into manual focusing instead; set the focus to roughly where you want it and then move the camera and lens closer/further from the subject to bring the plane of focus over the areas you want in-focus. 

2) If you got cheap extension tubes that came without metal contacts inside the use of those tubes will remove your lenses aperture control and Af control. If you have these kinds of tube you've got a challenge indeed as you can't chance your aperture on the lens *there are some workaround but first say what kind of tubes you have*

3) Flash - if you're handholding flash helps a lot. First if the flash is the dominant light source it gives you a better chance at a sharper shot because the flashduration is very fast; thus simulating the use of a very fast shutter speed in freezing the motion at the point the light pulse goes out. It also lets you use smaller apertures for more depth of field whilst retaining a low ISO (raising ISO for flash macro work helps if you want a more coloured background as many times flash will result in a black background.

4) Tripods are slow macro shooting; that means you need a very torpid insects (ie one found early in the morning when many have not warmed up from the sun and are cold from the night and thus unable to move) or some kind of lure. This can be a flower that insects freaquent; a strip of sugarwater; rotting fruit; etc... things that will attract and then distract the insect (many when feeding are very single minded); further some insects have repeatable behaviour patterns - eg dragonflies will often return to the same perches over and over again to oversee their land.


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## Derrel (Apr 5, 2012)

Start by using only ONE extension tube at first--the 13mm. Stacking all three is going to be an exercise in absolute frustration and futility for a beginner. You are right; for insect photography with a 100mm macro WITH extension tubes,plural, added, there's no way in hades you're gonna get setup and capture a moving insect; maybe on a cold-palayzed bee at 6:456 AM, sure...but not on flies or butterflies or other actively-moving bugs.

So, use JUST the 13mm tube for a while. See if you can figure out how to use flash to stop motion, and to get your f/stop to f/9.5 to f/11.


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## Kosteniuk_Fan (Apr 5, 2012)

Overread said:


> Points to consider:
> 
> 1) Macro photography is very challenging for AF sensors to work with. Reduced light and amplified motions as well as back and forth sway make it very hard for most cameras to get a reliable lock. Shift into manual focusing instead; set the focus to roughly where you want it and then move the camera and lens closer/further from the subject to bring the plane of focus over the areas you want in-focus.
> 
> ...



1.) Yes Ive learned that manual is better than autofocus. Does this affect the green-light I receive? Whether in autofocus or manual focus the camera usually beeps at me with a green-light when it is focused and ready. I thought autofocus was strictly whether the lens magnified the subject automatically or not? 


2.) Haha. No. I dont have cheap extension tubes. Certainly not the Chinese made ones. Although they're still not the best, I did spend over $100 on them from an American camera store called Cameta Camera, the same store that sold me my DSLR kit. The company that manufactured them is Zeikos. I still have full camera/lens functions with them in. I read about the Chinese tubes on other forums and the Kenko tubes but couldnt afford the latter so I found a middle ground. 


3.) I want to order a macro-ring flash in a few months when I can afford to, but in the mean time all I have is the built-in Canon flash. Outside I seldom use the flash. I didnt think it would help much. Often I find I have too much light when working with insects in direct sunlight, especially with all the man-made items that are painted white on our land. Will start using the flash more often if it helps. 


4.) Oh, yes, I am familiar with the behavior of insects. Horseflies I have found return to the same locations frequently, too. Unfortunately, though, it is too early in the season for most insects to be active. I do live in central Canada and it is still cold out. No flowers or plants much. Mostly only houseflies are out and on the side of our mobile home or on our deck. Trees dont even have leaves yet. Right now I am photographing mostly houseflies and a few tachnid flies here and there. 


Thanks for the detailed advice . 

Thanks also to Derrel. I will take your advice and use the 13mm only tomorrow morning .


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## Overread (Apr 6, 2012)

As far as I know if you have the AF set to continous mode (ai-servo) and then set the AF switch on the camera to manaul you should still get the camera sampling the focus and giving you the green light as you focus the camera whilst holding down the shutter button half way. If you are in singleshot it might only work once each time you half depress the shutter button so stick to ai-servo. 

As for the flash if you build yourself a small snoot for the popup flash so that the light is brought down to near the end of the macro lens you should be able to get a respectable amount of light to work with for macro shooting. Just make sure to have a little tab on the end to reflect the light down toward the subject. 
Settings wise try 1/200sec, ISO 100, f11-f13 kind of range as a rough starting point. That gives  you the fastest shutter speed possible with flash whilst also giving a clean shot with a good depth of field. Vary things as you desire though (macro photography can be done - like all fields of photography - with a massive range of settings limited only by your creative needs).

As for a proper flash note that ringflashes are rather limited to working only in macro work (this excludes the much larger beauty ring flashes which are normally an adaptor not a proper flash themselves) and because of their positioning they can be hard to diffuse the light from. Good ones let you change the balance of the light from the two sides so that you can at least put some shadows into the shot (otherwise they render with a very flat light - good for applications like research but less good for more creative photography). 
Personally I always advise people to get a proper speedlite flash for their first flash. That gives one a flash that can be used in nearly any field of photgraphy and will see a lot of use. With diffusers and brackets one can also get them into nearly any desired position to give lighting. I normally say try for the own brand options for expanded features - something like a 430EX2 or a 580EX2. However if they are too much in cost there are good 3rd party options on the market (they might limit you to manual flash powers, but otherwise give solid and reliable results - if lacking some of the bells and whistles).


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## hangman45 (Apr 6, 2012)

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the fact that once you add tubes the DOF decreases and it makes it more difficult to focus. Making a flash diffuser is easy and there are many options do a search on google for homemade macro flash diffuser I have a ring light but also use homemade flash diffuser. Once you get a flash you can change you F stop go with around F/16 to F/22 for maximum DOF.
Here are my 2 set ups.


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## Overread (Apr 6, 2012)

Far as I can tell extension tubes don't decrease the depth of field.
However what they do do is increase the maximum possible magnification of the subject on the sensor, as a result when you shoot at the increased magnifications the depth of field further reduces. This decrease appears to be linked to the magnification factor not the method you use (so you could use extension tubes, teleconverters or close up lens attachments and you'd still be getting the same amount of depth of field decreasings as you increase the magnifications).


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## hangman45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Overread said:


> Far as I can tell extension tubes don't decrease the depth of field.
> However what they do do is increase the maximum possible magnification of the subject on the sensor, as a result when you shoot at the increased magnifications the depth of field further reduces. This decrease appears to be linked to the magnification factor not the method you use (so you could use extension tubes, teleconverters or close up lens attachments and you'd still be getting the same amount of depth of field decreasings as you increase the magnifications).



Yes this true but when you add tubes you also increase magnification which in turn reduces DOF so really the tubes are not the cause but since the tubes increase magnification they would be linked.


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## Kosteniuk_Fan (Apr 6, 2012)

Overread said:


> As far as I know if you have the AF set to continous mode (ai-servo) and then set the AF switch on the camera to manaul you should still get the camera sampling the focus and giving you the green light as you focus the camera whilst holding down the shutter button half way. If you are in singleshot it might only work once each time you half depress the shutter button so stick to ai-servo.
> 
> As for the flash if you build yourself a small snoot for the popup flash so that the light is brought down to near the end of the macro lens you should be able to get a respectable amount of light to work with for macro shooting. Just make sure to have a little tab on the end to reflect the light down toward the subject.
> Settings wise try 1/200sec, ISO 100, f11-f13 kind of range as a rough starting point. That gives  you the fastest shutter speed possible with flash whilst also giving a clean shot with a good depth of field. Vary things as you desire though (macro photography can be done - like all fields of photography - with a massive range of settings limited only by your creative needs).
> ...



Actually, no, I am not using ai-servo, I am using manual focus on the one-shot setting. No autofocus on whatsoever. I haven&#8217;t had much use for ai-servo while doing insects because the autofocus is not helpful. 


But when I am manually focuses the lens the subject looks so clear and perfect in the viewfinder with the shutter button half-way down, but it does not beep the green-light at me, and if I take the shot anyway it will inevitably be blurred. The issue seems to be worse then using all three tubes at the same time - camera shake or DOF issue? 


I will use those settings you suggested. To clear things for me, though, what is what on my camera? I&#8217;ve heard words like aperture, shutter speed, DOF, f-stop, etc. all used, but which numbers or settings do I find these?


For example&#8230;


When on the Manual mode I see a number like 1/250 on the left and a number with an F (i.e. F8) on the right. In my experience the first one makes the images brighter or darker and the lower the second number (i.e. 250) the better the use of a tripod. Is this shutter speed? The second F-number seems to blur areas not in focus more - DOF? A second one I have noticed in the Av mode is a small graph from -2 to +2 with a dial. This seems to make the images either brighter or darker. What is this? Just having difficultly connecting all the terminology with features on the camera so I know what is what. 


The macro-ring flash I am looking at is a dual flash - both a speedlight and a ring together that can be used simultaneously or separately. I found the flash on eBay and it looks like the best for me. Costs around $200+ but it is a two birds with one stone scenario, or so I think. However, I recently purchased the 100mm lens and the extension tubes kit, therefore I can&#8217;t afford the flashes for now. I also happen to need to repair my satellite Internet connection. An each time I order something I have to pay the cost of it, duties and taxes, shipping, and all this other fun stuff.


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## Ed Bray (Apr 6, 2012)

After reading through this thread and your answers to questions asked by other members I can't help but think that you are trying to run before you can walk. To assume that a limited Depth of Field (DoF is the amount of perceived sharpness either side of the actual point of focus) is a form of lens distortion just further emphasises this feeling. DoF is a result of image magnification and can be effected by focal length, lens to subject distance and the aperture selected.

After reading various reviews of the extension tubes you have purchased it would appear that they are not the most reliable of items with owners having had issues with the plastic build, frequent issues with the contacts in particular especially when all three tubes are mounted together. There is an old adage of buy well, buy once and this would appear to be one of those times.

Can I ask why you felt you needed the extension tubes when you already have a lens that focusses to life size, have you outgrown it and are looking to improve upon your results?

From reading your last post it seems that you have little idea of photography at all, your third sentance in post #15 states you have absolutely no idea of the controls of which you are required to understand in order to operate the camera to acheive the results you want. Either that or you are a troll and this is just a wind-up.

My suggestion would be to read and understand the basic principles of camera operation and how the changing of the various controls allow you to alter the final result. If you can find a mentor locally who can guide you in the right direction that would be of benefit too. 

Fortunately, in this digital world it will cost you little but time to experiment and learn the basics, in years gone by when using film, this was an expensive and time consuming business.


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## Judobreaker (Apr 6, 2012)

Aperture: Lens opening.
Controls Depth of Field (DOF, the area in which objects appear sharp and in focus).
The F-number is the aperture setting. For example f/2 is a larger opening than f/8.
A larger opening lets in more light so this will also enable you to choose a higher shutter speed.

Simply put: More DOF = Less light.


Shutter speed: The time your shutter is opened.
Shutter speeds are displayed in parts of a second. For example 1/250 is faster than 1/10.
A slower shutter speed will make your sensor catch more light, thus making the photo lighter.
Slow shutter speeds will also introduce motion blur if the camera or subject moves.


ISO: The sensitivity of your sensor.
Controls how sensitive the sensor is to light.
When you increase the ISO you will need less light to get a good photo.
Increasing  your ISO will also increase image noise.

Simply put: Higher sensitivity = More noise.


Exposure: Aperture + Shutter speed + ISO
This is basically all of the above combined. The optimal exposure is exactly what you need to get a well lit photo.
Basically this is a constant. If you increase one factor you have to compensate it with another factor.
For example, if you increase your DOF (by closing down the aperture) you will lose light and therefore have to decrease shutter speed or increase ISO.


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## Ed Bray (Apr 6, 2012)

Judobreaker said:


> F-stop: DOF + Shutter speed + ISO
> This is basically all of the above combined. The optimal F-stop is exactly what you need to get a well lit photo.
> Basically this is a constant. If you increase one factor you have to compensate it with another factor.
> For example, if you increase your DOF (by closing down the aperture) you will lose light and therefore have to decrease shutter speed or increase ISO.



Not sure where you are coming from here, an 'f stop' is simply the size of the aperture in the lens divided by the focal length (50mm lens with a 25mm hole = f2), the name 'stop' comes from the early days of photography when a board with a hole in it of a given size was placed in the light path of a lens to control the exposure. The photographer carried boards 'stops' with various sized holes and inserted the one required.

The optimal f stop has nothing at all to do with getting a correct exposure unless the other variables are adjusted to acheive the required 'Exposure Value.' You can have an incorrect exposure with your optimum aperture and you can have a correct exposure with an aperture other than your 'optimal'


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## Judobreaker (Apr 6, 2012)

Oh lol, I haven't been too sure but I always thought people were using it like that.
Sometimes people use the words f-number and f-stop in a single story which has probably gotten me confused sometime.
Oh well... I'll just change that to 'Exposure" and it'll be correct.


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## Helen B (Apr 6, 2012)

Ed Bray said:


> Not sure where you are coming from here, an 'f stop' is simply the size of the aperture in the lens divided by the focal length (50mm lens with a 25mm hole = f2)



That might be just a little confusing, mightn't it? The f-number is the focal length divided by the diameter of the aperture (actually the diameter of the entrance pupil); and because f-number and the less well defined f-stop are often used interchangeably it could be confusing, especially to a beginner, to call the f-stop the 'size of the aperture divided by the focal length'.


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## Overread (Apr 6, 2012)

I would strongly recommend two things

1) read - reread and read it again - the manual that came with the camera (if you don't have it it should be on the Canon website for download). This tells you what is what in your viewfinder; how to adjust settings and short overviews of the features and their uses. 

2) Read the book "Understanding Expoosure by Bryan Peterson" its a good introductary book to learning exposure and how to control it best for your shots. It has case studies as well to help reinforce the theory. It's not too complicated, but a good book should give you a good presentation of the whole subject as opposed to the bitty advice you'll get in the forums (bits will get glossed over - left out or - as above - mixed up --- Ps when in doubt listen to HelenB


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## Ed Bray (Apr 6, 2012)

Helen B said:


> Ed Bray said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure where you are coming from here, an 'f stop' is simply the size of the diameter of the aperture in the lens divided by the focal length (50mm lens with a 25mm hole = f2)
> ...



Yes, I admit I missed out 'of the diameter' in the statement I made. My bad!


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## Helen B (Apr 6, 2012)

Ed Bray said:


> Helen B said:
> 
> 
> > Ed Bray said:
> ...



Er, that wasn't what I thought was potentially confusing. It's the reference to the f-stop being the aperture/focal length rather than focal length/aperture, given that f-stop and f-number are usually taken to mean the same thing.


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## Ed Bray (Apr 6, 2012)

Helen B said:


> Ed Bray said:
> 
> 
> > Helen B said:
> ...



Oh, right, yes i see what you mean, I got it the right way around in the example, yes I meant focal length over aperture.


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## Philoslothical (Apr 6, 2012)

Kosteniuk_Fan said:


> 1.)
> 
> For some reason the camera I have an issue with the camera focusing. No matter what I seem to do it sometimes doesn&#8217;t focus, and when I say that I mean there is no &#8216;beep&#8217; sound with the green-light telling me it is set, thereby meaning if I click the shutter button down it will inevitably be distorted. I change the shutter speed, the F-stop?, etc. without luck. Looking through the viewfinder, the subject looks crystal clear, but the camera doesn&#8217;t focus? Other times it spontaneously focuses and I don&#8217;t know why? So much of my time with the extension tubes on is spent looking through the viewfinder, changing the angle and/or the settings, focusing the lens, and nothing happens?
> 
> Why is this happening?



The reason you're not always getting AF confirmation is because the extension tubes increase your effective aperture, meaning it increases the effective f stop used to focus (or, in simpler terms, it makes the lens function as if it had a much smaller maximum aperture). 

The AF sensors in your camera are good to about f./8 if they're cross type sensors, and f./5.6 if they're the older type that is laid out in one direction only. Some cameras use both types, usually with cross type focus points near the center of the frame, and some weaker regular ones on the periphery. This is a limitation of the AF sensors and not a problem with your extension tubes.

The extension affects the max aperture of the lens you're using - not the f number you dial in, assuming the tubes have aperture linkage. The amount of extension will determine how much "slower" the lens becomes. There are ways to calculate this, but I won't go into that right now. The important thing is to understand why the AF confirmation fails, as you asked. The more intensely lit the scene is, the more you can get away with, generally. Other than that, all you can do is 1. use a faster lens, 2. use less extension, 3. stop relying on AF confirmation. I think #3 is the best option.


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## Thunder_o_b (Apr 8, 2012)

Ok, a couple of things. You can photograph moving subjects at high mag handheld. I regularly shoot at 3:1 and higher handheld. But you will need a solid flash setup. LordV can even capture BIF's with the MP-E65 handheld.

"Sniper method" refers to long range shooting disapline. In short, you become one with the weapon. You learn to shoot between heart beats, and to use as few muscles as possible as each muscle used has a slight tremor. I shoot as the breath I exhale bottoms out my lungs. There is more (mind set etc) but you get the idea.

It is all rather Zen.


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