# Changing my business name..



## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

Ok so I think I'm going I change my business name. Right now it's Sabrina Cameron Photography. It's my name and my sons name. I love my son and he is the reason why I really got into photography but I think the name is kind of lame. I mean everyone puts "their name + photography" and I just wanna be a little different. What do you think? I've been in business for about 7 months and I don't really think I've made a mark yet for it to be a big deal that I change my name. The only setback is the facebook fans that I have. I have over 800 but if they were real fans they would be fans of my new fanpage right? Advice is appreciated!


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## gsgary (Jul 22, 2011)

Where do i get the popcorn smiley ?


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## Malone (Jul 22, 2011)

Here's an interesting read -

Photography Business Names


> When you use a business name that&#8217;s different than your own personal name, you&#8217;ll be developing and promoting an identity that&#8217;s separate from yourself.And that&#8217;s fine if you&#8217;re selling stuff that&#8217;s not really related to you. For example, if you have a shoe store on 3rd street, &#8220;Third Street Shoes&#8221; is an OK name.
> 
> Most photography businesses, however, promote the services of a particular person, or are at least identified with one primary person. Having a _separate_ name for that person&#8217;s photography business detracts from promoting the person.
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> ...


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## vtf (Jul 22, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Where do i get the popcorn smiley ?



Go advanced. Right side. just copy and paste mine for now.

I would not use a married name just first and or maiden because you run into a pain if a divorce occurs.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Jul 22, 2011)

I would go with a different name. To me, a business shouldn't be your name. I mean I know companies do it, and it works well, but I just think something else would work better. Noone says you can't promote yourself as the photographer as well incase your work grows a following ( like if you really start to find some fine art niche and people want prints ) but if its just for general photographic services, I would go with a name. Not only does it sound better, it can also create a bit of a mystique. You could be a huge company with 20 pro photogs, or just some person living in their moms basement. That way the business and quality of work speaks for itself, rather than your name and reputation ( perhaps in a small town for instance where some enemies may spread bad gossip about you ) attracting or repelling customers. However, if you are geared more towards stock photography or selling strictly fine art prints, using your own name would be better I think due to it being more personal.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Jul 22, 2011)

I guess it all boils down to what you want to be. How personal do you want to be? I mean I would rather have a wedding photographer with a name as opposed to a business. That doesn't sound as unique and noone wants just cookie cutter wedding pictures. Whereas if I am getting my school kids portraits, I would want a business name which seems more credible. Also, do you want a brick and mortar storefront/studio or just to do gigs here and there?


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

The success of your biz will not change based on it's name. So whatever you choose doesn't really matter.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

Malone said:


> Here's an interesting read -Photography Business Names
> 
> 
> > When you use a business name thats different than your own personal name, youll be developing and promoting an identity thats separate from yourself.And thats fine if youre selling stuff thats not really related to you. For example, if you have a shoe store on 3rd street, Third Street Shoes is an OK name.Most photography businesses, however, promote the services of a particular person, or are at least identified with one primary person. Having a _separate_ name for that persons photography business detracts from promoting the person.This has always been a dilemma for me in Pams promotional materials  do I promote Pam Farr the photographer, or Not Your Normal photography® the business?The situation is made even more complicated by the fact that our business  Not Your Normal Photography® is not listed in the phone book, so if someone is looking for Not Your Normal Photography®, they simply wont find us.So weve had to make sure that our clients knew that Not Your Normal Photography® was really Pam Farr, the photographer and building Pams reputation in the community would have been easier and simpler if we had just promoted Pam Farr photography in the first place.*People like to buy from people.*Another factor to consider is that people like dealing with people.In other words, its nice to put a face on a business, and the easiest way to do that, is to use your name as the name of your photography business._In most cases, a personality driven business is easier to promote and easier for clients to relate to. A tell-tale sign of this  even though the official name of our business is Not Your Normal Photography®  many clients will automatically make the checks out to Pam Farr. So, you can make it easy and just go with the flow on this one._


Hmmm thanks for this. Something to think about.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

vtf said:


> gsgary said:
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> > Where do i get the popcorn smiley ?
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 Lol I wouldn't use married name anyways. My father in law says their name is too "ethnic" and people mispronounce it all the time.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Jul 22, 2011)

mishele said:


> The success of your biz will not change based on it's name. So whatever you choose doesn't really matter.


 Thats not entirely true. A name plays a bigger role than people think. Although much of it may be subconscious. If I called my wedding photog business "trailer trash images" do you think some bridezilla from an upper class neighborhood is going to even give me a call? Doubtful. Names can also benefit you simply for being easier to remember and having brand recognition. There is a billion dollar industry of advertising( which employs MANY of us photographers ) that is predicated entirely on names and image. Will having a cool name make you a better photographer? Not at all, but it can play a huge role in the path that your business takes.


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## vtf (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> vtf said:
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Whatever you choose it should be able to last any type of issues whether be it future divorce, address change, marriage etc. and not be already taken.
Not an easy decision.


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## Scoody (Jul 22, 2011)

My business is named _Cynderella Photography_ after my wife and co-photographer, Cyndee.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


> I guess it all boils down to what you want to be. How personal do you want to be? I mean I would rather have a wedding photographer with a name as opposed to a business. That doesn't sound as unique and noone wants just cookie cutter wedding pictures. Whereas if I am getting my school kids portraits, I would want a business name which seems more credible. Also, do you want a brick and mortar storefront/studio or just to do gigs here and there?


Hmmm so what are you saying? You'd rather do your personal name? I don't know what you mean by your last sentence...?


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

I want it to be "Crazy Beautiful Photography" or a variation of..... 
The dotcom is already taken so I'm trying to come up with a variation of that.


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes, having a reasonable name is a good idea. But I still think regardless of your name it is YOU that needs to be remembered......your work. If I name my Biz AAA Photography to try to be the first in the phonebook, that's all great til 10 people hate the product they bought and your neat name isn't worth ****.....=) lol


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

vtf said:


> SabrinaO said:
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Well im plannin on having another child so I don't think it will be fair to have my firstborn in the name and not all my kids... Lol


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## Derrel (Jul 22, 2011)

mishele said:


> The success of your biz will not change based on it's name. So whatever you choose doesn't really matter.



I think the name of a business matters, at least somewhat. Many commercial photographers use their last name, and the word Studio or Studios (plural) after the name; that creates an impression of a larger-than-one-person business concern. I think you ought to think very carefully about what you name the business, Sabrina. Interesting thing: there was a member here a little over a year ago, who had an unusual last name, and he was just getting started. He was in the Atlanta area,and was trying out a new business card design, some kinda' riffing on his name...anyway...he reported here that when he did a promotional event under the name of the business he had developed, he got like zero response; when he did the identical promotion using "cutesy" business cards, with a cute flying bumble bee and the name Buzzy Bee Studios I believe it was, the response was overwhelming...so...something to keep in mind.


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

Derrel said:


> mishele said:
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> > The success of your biz will not change based on it's name. So whatever you choose doesn't really matter.
> ...



I guess what I was getting at is.......you need to be able to produce a quality product in the end no matter what your name is.


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## Malone (Jul 22, 2011)

Maybe this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but also keep in mind your target customer.  As Derrel mentioned above, "cutesy" names such as Buzzy Bee Studios would likely get a lot of business from families for baby photos, birthday parties, etc.  But I personally would not hire a photographer with a "cutesy" name for my wedding or senior portraits; instead rather something more professional or elegant in name.


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## Derrel (Jul 22, 2011)

Malone said:


> Maybe this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but also keep in mind your target customer.  As Derrel mentioned above, "cutesy" names such as Buzzy Bee Studios would likely get a lot of business from families for baby photos, birthday parties, etc.  But I personally would not hire a photographer with a "cutesy" name for my wedding or senior portraits; instead rather something more professional or elegant in name.



That was that fellow's finding when he did the blind comparison of the promo: he offered the SAME package, under two different business names, and the Buzzy Bee name was a HUUUUUGE success, while his other name did absolutely nothing to attract customers. THe business cards he kept showing and asking about here were kind of dull, IMHO; the Buzzy Bee one was very, well, cutesy...so...Gotta' keep in mind that women control the buying decision in most family portraiture scenarios; moms, and grandmothers, often are the decision-makers on family photography buying decisions.

I always think of the Chevy Nova, and its incredibly dismal sales in Spanish-speaking areas.... no va translates basically to "no go"...


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

Thank you all. Such great advice!! I'm 100% sure I'm changing my name. I know theres pros and cons to it... but I think the pros outweigh the cons in _my _situation. I think my new name is catchy and easy to remember. Its not too cutesy and I think it covers a broad range, (weddings, children, couples, seniors etc). I know some people would feel comfortable with a personal named business... but I don't think that they would choose a personal name over something else because of the name itself. It's the quality of work that matters. What do you all think about Crazy Beautiful Photography?


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## gsgary (Jul 22, 2011)

Thank's for that lovely private message  but i am already with someone sorry


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Thank's for that lovely private message  but i am already with someone sorry



You are so sad. Have fun at the "pub" drinking your sorrows away... 

Moving right along!


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## mc1979 (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Thank you all. Such great advice!! I'm 100% sure I'm changing my name. I know theres pros and cons to it... but I think the pros outweigh the cons in _my _situation. I think my new name is catchy and easy to remember. Its not too cutesy and I think it covers a broad range, (weddings, children, couples, seniors etc). I know some people would feel comfortable with a personal named business... but I don't think that they would choose a personal name over something else because of the name itself. It's the quality of work that matters. What do you all think about Crazy Beautiful Photography?



I like it, but unfortunately it's not original. Google it.


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## gsgary (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> gsgary said:
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> > Thank's for that lovely private message  but i am already with someone sorry
> ...




What sorrows i'm full of the joys of spring, no sorrows when your drinking real ale and listening to rock music


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

I know... 
Thats why im trying to come up with a variation of it. Any suggestions? I really want to use Crazy Beautiful...lol


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## Malone (Jul 22, 2011)

Go to Beautiful Synonyms, Beautiful Antonyms | Thesaurus.com and get some ideas for other words than Beautiful if that's the route you wanna go..  Angelic, alluring, blissful, gorgeous, etc..


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 22, 2011)

Derrel said:


> he reported here that when he did a promotional event under the name of the business he had developed, he got like zero response; when he did the identical promotion using "cutesy" business cards, with a cute flying bumble bee and the name Buzzy Bee Studios I believe it was, the response was overwhelming...so...something to keep in mind.




Thats called 'branding'. People like brands. They want something they can put on a keychain, embroider on a hat, or use as a bumper sticker. Why else have Nike, and Coke become such big players. Coke probably would not have made it if it were name _John Smith Pemberton Soda Company._


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

gsgary said:


> SabrinaO said:
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You really felt the need to and clarify this huh? I guess you are just _trying_ to convince yourself.....


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## Kbarredo (Jul 22, 2011)

You photograph children right? Try something cute and creative. Or just your own name. Anne geddis isn't really that creative but look at how awesome she is.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> I really want to use Crazy Beautiful...lol



I :lmao:'ed too.


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## Kbarredo (Jul 22, 2011)

I did but only the first post. She finds her name boring. I stopped reading after that sorry.


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## RauschPhotography (Jul 22, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> I did but only the first post. She finds her name boring. I stopped reading after that sorry.



A lot has happened since the original post...


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Jul 22, 2011)

Try something more unique. Try to imagine it as a logo too. Sometimes an idea for the logo will make one name sound better than another if you are having a tough time picking between a few. How about a variation...."nuts and pretty" ??? eh not as flashy I guess.:lmao:.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 22, 2011)

I have thought about this too but my thoughts are I want people to remember me because of my style and photography not on the business name and really I am selling myself, I like the idea of the persons name making it more personal. Anyways good luck.


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## kundalini (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> ......... I've been in business for about 7 months and I don't really think I've made a mark yet ............


A busines name change?  Seriously, that's your concern?  I see a fair amount of other concerns that should take priority.  I can list two right off the bat.....

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...0835-quick-question-about-lighting-setup.html

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...photo-gallery/251058-snooting-speedlight.html


If it's that much of a matter, consider the name "idontreadusermanuals andgetmyinformation offphotoforums photography".


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## Vtec44 (Jul 22, 2011)

Jack Daniel's!!!  Is that his real name?


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## Derrel (Jul 22, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Jack Daniel's!!!  Is that his real name?



YES, it was...until he tripped and injured himself on the safe in his office area, and died later of the infection from the wound he sustained...you obviously have not been to the distillery and taken the tour...Jack Daniel, born 1846, died 1911.


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## TwoTwoLeft (Jul 22, 2011)

Take the "O" from SabrinaO. Delete Sabrina, keep Cameron, call it "O'Cameron Images"

Now you can drink at the bar & be happy cuz you sound Irish....


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## Gaerek (Jul 22, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> I mean everyone puts "their name + photography"...



Don't you think there's a reason for this? I'm a dude, and I realize that in this industry most of the clientele is female, but I'm immediately put off by "Crazy Beautiful Photography." I asked my wife, and her response was, "It sounds like she's trying to hard to try to be creative. Sabrina Cameron Photography is much more personal, and if I had narrowed my choices down to those two studios, I'd choose Sabrina Cameron based on the name alone." I would much rather hire Sabrina Cameron Photography, or Sabrina Cameron Studios. This is an industry where you want to try to make a personal connection with your clients. By using your name, you're putting yourself out there.

I'm currently in the early stages of opening up a (non-photography related) business, and I can tell you, one of the last things I'm worried about is my business name. Sure, my wife and I have a list of possible names we like, but there are far more important things I need to deal with first. It certainly won't be an afterthought for me, but I know that it's pretty far down the priority list for me. Just seeing your posts on this board, I think you have a lot more to worry about than your business name.

Just some things to think about. Hope I could be some help.


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

Hey a great name is only as great as the product!! You can get people to the door but you need to have the product that they want!! People don't want just a cute name....lol You need to back it up. 
When I went to a wedding fair........it never even occurred to me what names were.........I wanted to see PICTURES...and price.(that was 13 years ago......so no, not when I was into photography) So pick a name and depend on selling from your abilities!! In the end that is where your sales are going to come from.   Now I need to go drink more wine..........


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## pgriz (Jul 22, 2011)

When I was starting my business, I got lots of advice from various people and the relevant points regarding the name were:
1)  short
2)  descriptive of service or product
3)  simple

Probably more important than the name is the logo, which will become a unifying theme among your marketing, sales, and adminstrative documents.  Everything your prospects and clients see from you (letterheads, business cards, portfolio cases, etc.) need to have the logo displayed.  Same for the web sites.  Same for any publicity material.  In addition, a phone number or web site where they can contact you.  People will see and recognize the logo before they even read the name.  Visual processing is much, much faster than the parsing we have to do when reading something.


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## Geaux (Jul 22, 2011)

I vote for "I Shoot Children INC."


I agree with Mishele though, even if your cutesy name gets you the clients, if you don't provide quality imaging, you won't get call backs or word of mouth from those people.  You could have the coolest, cutest, most attractive name, but if you can't get lighting right, forget shutter speed or have horrible sets ... it won't do you any good.


@Derrell, I bet Buzzy Bee had some great images though.  Grabbed the clients and held onto them and their friends/family!


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## SabrinaO (Jul 22, 2011)

kundalini said:


> SabrinaO said:
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> > ......... I've been in business for about 7 months and I don't really think I've made a mark yet ............
> ...



OMGzzz ok, so I  need to know how to shoot with a snoot before I become pro? I need to learn all about triggers then Ill become pro. Get over yourself dude. Your self-righteousness ooozes out of you. In photography, you learn and grow as you go. There's a quote saying something like "your best picture is the one that you take tomorrow". 
J/C... at least i'm asking questions and WANT to learn and get better instead of winging it and thinking i'm amazing when i'm not. But ill get there. Sorry we cant all be like you and were an instant fantastic photographer as soon as you picked up the camera... :er:
Once again... get over yourself.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 22, 2011)

Here we, here we, here we go again!!! 

Wheeee!


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

By learning the stuff he mentioned you might avoid another name change.


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## mishele (Jul 22, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSBmK8X6hFEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xv6YTTPE0A&feature=related


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## NikonME (Jul 22, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Vtec44 said:
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> > Jack Daniel's!!!  Is that his real name?
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They changed his name after he died? Those bastards!


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## gsgary (Jul 23, 2011)

How about Flat Lighting Photography got a nice ring to it


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

gsgary said:


> How about Flat Lighting Photography got a nice ring to it



Some people are just so pathetic... lol. I see your bad feelings are coming back. Better go mask them and have another drink at the pub...


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## The_Traveler (Jul 23, 2011)

kundalini said:


> SabrinaO said:
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I really liked this but there arfe other alternatives like
'imnotembarassedtobewrong studios' or 'imjustlearningbutyourethescholarship photography'


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> In photography, you learn and grow as you go.



If you're a hobbyist or an amateur, I'd most definately agree with you. However, you're taking money from people by providing a product/service. I'm not saying you need to know everything there is to know about photography, but I know I certainly wouldn't want to spend my money with someone who thought that being professional (since you're running a business charging for you your time/effort, you are supposedly professional) means that you can learn as you go. Understand that learning as you go really means learning through trial and error. I'd hate to be that client who had to be one of your learning mistakes. I can't think of another industry out there where you can go into business without enough knowledge to know the basics. The business I'm planning on starting is a computer repair business. If I started this and decided that I'll just learn as I go, I know that disaster would be the outcome. The only reason I know I can provide this particular service is because I have years of real life experiences, and a laundry list of certifications after my name.

I'm not trying to be rude, or anything like that. I, like many others, are trying to help you. I wish you luck in your business, whatever it's name is. Your reaction will dictate whether I bother to try to help anymore.


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## Scoody (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Crazy Beautiful...lol



An apt description of my first wife.  She should be paroled anyday now.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> SabrinaO said:
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This is where portfolios and quality ratings come in. When you take a look at someones portfolio or read their ratings then you decide whether or not to pay for their services....
That's what an educated person will do instead of hiring someone blindly. 
Photography IS a learn as you go process whether you like it or not. You can't recognize your mistakes and learn and grow if you don't have clients.


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## Scoody (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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Anything where you are taking money from someone to provide a product or a service is not a learn as you go type of thing. I've been shooting for something like 13 years now, and although I know if I decided to open a studio or whatever, I'd probably do fine, but I also know that I would have a lot of learning to do. That learning and practice would come before I decided to take people's money. Let's put it another way:

How come wedding photographers almost always start as second shooters?
How come if you get a job working at a studio or for a photographer, you'll usually spend most of your time holding reflectors and things like that?

The reason is, you learn everything you need to know about those particular fields by doing those things. As a second shooter at a wedding, you get to shoot, and you will likely get feedback from the primary. If every single one of your shots suck, it's not a huge deal because the primary was there and got what was needed. Holding reflectors, watching a photographer work, pose his subject, light his subject, etc, you learn how to do those things. You'll have the opportunity to ask questions and find out why things were done the way they were. You'll see the results of that shoot. Doing these things gives you the knowledge and experience you need to be the primary at the wedding, or to be the one shooting in the studio. I call this the Mr. Miagi approach. You do menial tasks, and you might wonder why you're not allowed to do the fun stuff. Until one day, you realize you've been learning all along, and you're a better photographer for it. Instead of "Wax on, wax off" it's "Tilt the reflector forward, tilt the reflector back."

It seems like you got yourself a DSLR and thought, "I can make money taking pictures!" You got yourself a business license and realized that you have a lot to learn. So while you're taking people's money for them, and (honestly, not trying to be rude here again) misrrepresenting yourself as a professional photographer, using their photos, that they paid good money for as "learning experiences." With the business I'm going to open, if I did this, it would fail.

"Sorry ma'am, I couldn't fix your computer. I looked it up on Google, and I couldn't get an answer. Here you go. Maybe try sending it back to the manufacturer. That'll be $120 for the time I spent!"

I'm not saying your business will fail, but there is a reason you get criticized here a lot. You do a lot of studio shooting, but know very little about studio lighting. I saw your pinup shoot thread, and while I think they photos are pretty good, you didn't even know how to touch up imperfections. I really hope she wasn't a paying client, because if she was, you might want to give her a discount or do it for free and tell her that she was just a learning experience for you.

If I went to a computer forum and was asking people things like, "A client wants me to remove the viruses on his computer. Can you guys tell me how to do that?" I'd be laughed off the forum. People would be questioning why I'm presenting myself as a professional, and why I ever decided to go into business in the first place. You really should be an expert in the field you're running a business in.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Gaerek said:
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Sorry darling I am going to call bull**** here.  You do NOT learn by taking their money first, your taking money from these people as paying clients and your representing yourself as someone who is a professional and yet you have some of the most basic questions posted every week. How is that benifitting you or the clients? Which is what your doing taking money, I assume, although I do not know how much and then every week post questions like you do, people are going to be thinking WTF was she thinking? Build your portfolio first and get what you need to know and then start charging clients. I am not trying to be a harsh ***** here but you seem to have a pattern to your threads and you end up looking like just another weekend warrior who bought a camera and thinks that with a bit of general knowledge and the studio type set up you are an accomplished photographer. It absolutely is a learning process but most of us aren't trying to be spoon fed. And I'm not saying you are, it just looks that way when your posts come across that way and I think this is why you get such flack from some of the seasoned photographers who know there **** and you can learn from. Anyways you can hate this thread, think Im a crazy ***** but I am just telling you how I see it.


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## Ronaldo (Jul 23, 2011)

I wouldn't listen to anybody here who comments on you being a "professional", "taking money", "learning as you go", etc.

You demonstrate your work product on your website and in your portfolio, so there is no misrepresentation whatsoever.  If someone then decides in a free market to pay you for your work product - - GO FOR IT!! - - and continue to bill as much as you can an learn and grow as much as you can.

Best of luck with your future endeavors.


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 23, 2011)

SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL SELF DESTRUCT AND MAY CAUSE MENTAL DEFECTS.


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

I just thought about something. If it's ok to learn as you go and be a professional photographer, why not change your business name to "Learn as you Go Photography".

No one in their right mind would use that as a name, because it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

Ronaldo said:


> I wouldn't listen to anybody here who comments on you being a "professional", "taking money", "learning as you go", etc.
> 
> You demonstrate your work product on your website and in your portfolio, so there is no misrepresentation whatsoever.  If someone then decides in a free market to pay you for your work product - - GO FOR IT!! - - and continue to bill as much as you can an learn and grow as much as you can.
> 
> Best of luck with your future endeavors.



Can I laugh here, because this type of It's ok to take their money if their stupid enough to pay for it mentality is exactly why people who are trying to learn and actually make a living off of photography want nothing to do with helping others, why bother when your mind set is this.


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## Scoody (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> I just thought about something. If it's ok to learn as you go and be a professional photographer, why not change your business name to "Learn as you Go Photography".
> 
> No one in their right mind would use that as a name, because it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.



While I would never say that a DSLR and business cards makes a photographer, no one should know it all before they go into business.  Sure there is a certain level to which your skills should be honed before actually charging money for your work, even photographers with many years of experience still learn and should always be ready to learn new things.  You can always learn new poses, lighting setups and such, so learning as you go is applicable for all of us.


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

Scoody said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > I just thought about something. If it's ok to learn as you go and be a professional photographer, why not change your business name to "Learn as you Go Photography".
> ...



I never said that. BUT, you should know the basics. You shouldn't have diffculty touching up photos. You should understand how a snoot works. You should know at least the basics of studio lighting. And these are all things (and more) that the OP has continually asked for help with, at the same time taking money from paying clients who believe she knows what she's doing.

In my field, if I didn't keep learning, I'd fail also. But I should basically be an expert on how computers work, right at this point in time. If I don't know the basics, I have no absolutely no business opening a business.


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## TwoTwoLeft (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.



Normally I like what you have to say, but I'm going to have to call BS on this one. Part of being a "Professional" is furthering one's education in the field they are in. If you refused to learn anything new once you became a professional you would be pretty lousy at whatever it is you do. 

I do get the point you're trying to make. I realize there should be certain prerequisites that need to met before "going pro". Unfortunately, in photography there really aren't any. So if she wants to charge, her work will speak for itself and how much business she gets will reflect that. 


Now Sabrina, every time you have an issue you come running to TPF, then you complain about the advise you get or how its delivered. THIS IS FREE INFORMATION!!!! You are riding on the years of knowledge that all these seasoned photographers have figured out on their own without the interwebz. If you want everything delivered to you in a nice, neat professional way, go spend some money and take a class or two. 

Honestly, your business should be called "TPF Rescues Sabrina Again Photography".....


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> ... because it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.



Then why do brain surgeons start out as interns? They perform surgeries under supervision. Would you say that they aren't professionals?


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

mwcfarms said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Gaerek said:
> ...



First of all... I was shooting free for MONTHS to build my portfolio and gain the experience. I started charging when i felt comfortable charging, and because I was starting to feel taken advantage of. I didn't start charging as soon as I got my DSLR. That is ridiculous and I would never do that. There are some that do and if people want to pay for their work that's on them. 
But my name is behind my work and I always strive for perfection. Why is it bad that I ask questions and want to learn more? Does it not make me professional because I ask how to snoot a light? THAT is bull****. I know just enough and am comfortable enough to charge for my work. I know the basics... but I want to learn more. I want to learn how to snoot a light. I want to learn the best setup for a nice depth in lighting. I am far from a weekend warrior. I've been at this for months. How do my posts come across? I take in the good and the bad. I wouldn't be where im at today if I didn't, so I don't know what you are talking about. If someone tells me my lighting is flat, I want to learn how to change it. I don't expect to get spoon fed. Sometimes I make mistakes, but I learn from them. So yes... being in this field IS a learning experience.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > ... because it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.
> ...



I get what your saying Chris but its more a first year med student rather than a 3rd or 4th year undergrad situation here wouldn't you agree.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> mwcfarms said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...



Um sorry didnt you say in an earlier post that you have only been shooting for 7 months? Or am I way off to lunch here?


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> Scoody said:
> 
> 
> > Gaerek said:
> ...



Oh so once I know how to snoot Ill be ok to charge? GTFOH. Is there a set point where you can start charging? NO! It's up to the consumers who are willing to pay for their services.  My work speaks for itself. I know what the hell i'm doing. I just want to improve. I'm not gonna be like you and sit on my butt and wait until I know EVERYTHING THERE IS POSSIBLY TO KNOW ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY before I start charging. That is ridiculous. Good luck with that. Me, I have the confidence to move forward.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

mwcfarms said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > mwcfarms said:
> ...


I got my camera in October 2010, started shooting free until january/feb and opened up my studio and started charging feb/march. I still shoot free to this day when I want to learn new techniques.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

Ok I don't want this to get way out of hand but Sabrina you really need to accept responsibility here as well. I do think you have some great images, but at the same time you seem to run here everytime you have a basic question. If you maybe were a bit more humble when people are trying to help you then you wouldn't receive this kind of negative attitude. I know its a learning process and growing absolutely but your have this attitude that seems to rub people the wrong way and you do come here with very basic questions that you could answer for yourself if you took the time to look it up on youtube etc. Anyways I'm done commenting, good luck with your endevors.


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## ababysean (Jul 23, 2011)

I have not read the thread yet, and I see there are a ton of posts but I would keep your name, your real name.  Your photography is your art.  Think when people are talking about that wonderful family portrait above their mantal in their homes, and someone asked, who took that for you?  You want people to say YOUR NAME, not some random generic Cherished Memories photography or something random.

Use your name.

Sabrina Cameron is fine.

Did you have to file a dba or fictitious name for the state for that name?  I'm using my nick name, and the only reason I hate it is because I have to file this extra paper work.


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## gsgary (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> mwcfarms said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...




 When i tell you your lighting is flat i get a mouthful, you only like to hear the good points as soon as someone say anything negative you get on your high horse


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## ababysean (Jul 23, 2011)

I want to know is your studio profitable?  I really need a space too, my **** is all over the house, there is a small office building downtown for 350 a month and that includes utilities..  I'm seriously thinking about it.  I need to do that or buy a storage unit for my yard.   lol


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## ababysean (Jul 23, 2011)

and if you plan on having more kids, so what?  Name other things after them, such as your packages....  lol


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## blackfin (Jul 23, 2011)

my business name is a generic name like " Bluefin Photography"... i like names that are n0t personal names, this is so you can build a brand and possibly sell your company later, its hard to sell youname+photography

My Blog: Wedding Photography Rates | wedding-photo-tips.com


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

mwcfarms said:


> Ok I don't want this to get way out of hand but Sabrina you really need to accept responsibility here as well. I do think you have some great images, but at the same time you seem to run here everytime you have a basic question. If you maybe were a bit more humble when people are trying to help you then you wouldn't receive this kind of negative attitude. I know its a learning process and growing absolutely but your have this attitude that seems to rub people the wrong way and you do come here with very basic questions that you could answer for yourself if you took the time to look it up on youtube etc. Anyways I'm done commenting, good luck with your endevors.



Whats going on? Are you like scared or afraid to speak out against these "seasoned photographers?" Really? You are calling me the one with the attitude...I mean seriously? You don't see how these "seasoned photographers" speak to beginners like me? I have no problem at ALL taking a critique. Many of them are experienced and DO know what they are talking about, but I have to filter out their unnecessary dick head behavior.  In fact I post my WORST shots for CC so I can learn what not to do, or what to do next time. It's simple.. you can give a pretty good CC (people like BIG MIKE, Derrell) without purposely being an asshole or sarcastic just to make someone feel bad or to get laughs from fellow trolls.  But that's a problem with me being humble? Really? You either are a coward or you just are honestly not seeing it. 
I'm only getting a negative attitude only from the people who i speak out against because their ridiculous, immature, self-righteous behavior. When i see it happening to me or anyone else on here im gonna speak out against it. I must get a handful of pms every time I come on here of people basically saying things like "I don't know why people on here are such assholes." Once in a while ill even get someone personally apologizing to me through pm because they were being an ass. 
I guess you just arent seeing that?? :er:

oh and excuse me for running here when I have a good question. silly me for wanting to learn more. What was my last question? "Anyone know any good DIY snoots and how do you set it up?"


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

ababysean said:


> I want to know is your studio profitable?  I really need a space too, my **** is all over the house, there is a small office building downtown for 350 a month and that includes utilities..  I'm seriously thinking about it.  I need to do that or buy a storage unit for my yard.   lol



I think 350 is a good deal. Whats the sq?


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > ... because it's not ok to learn as you go and be a professional in your field.
> ...



The same way as a wedding photographer starts as a second shooter, or a studio photographer might start as a reflector holder, amirite?

Learn as you go means you know nothing, but pick it up as you go along. A surgeon knows how to perform the surgery before they even attempt one. They don't go to surgery forums and ask how to remove brain tumors. Try again.

Are you suggesting that the OP become a photography intern before being a professional? Because I think that's a wonderful idea.


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## Gaerek (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:
			
		

> Oh so once I know how to snoot Ill be ok to charge? GTFOH. Is there a set point where you can start charging? NO! It's up to the consumers who are willing to pay for their services.  My work speaks for itself. I know what the hell i'm doing. I just want to improve. I'm not gonna be like you and sit on my butt and wait until I know EVERYTHING THERE IS POSSIBLY TO KNOW ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY before I start charging. That is ridiculous. Good luck with that. Me, I have the confidence to move forward.



Apparently reading comprehension > you

You post a lot of questions EVERYDAY that are so incredibly basic that I would expect a professional photographer who is taking people's hard earned money from them to know already. It's great to keep on learning, but there is a lot you should have known before going into business. You say you know what you're doing. Then why are you posting client photos that show you actually don't know what you're doing?

Maybe your portfolio is "good enough" for people who don't know any better. I know I'd personally pass you up as a potential photographer. But then again, I actually know what the he'll I'm looking at.


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## SabrinaO (Jul 23, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> > Gaerek said:
> ...


Sorry I don't need to be anyones intern.  How about you? Maybe you should take a stab at it. Me I'm doing just fine wit my business and photography learning as I go. Speaking of business, that's a whole different field. I guess you think having a bachelors/masters in business is mandatory for all photographers too. Lol. Have fun wasting time trying to get 100% ready. There us no book or manual on when you are allowed to be a professional.


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## ababysean (Jul 23, 2011)

but how are you making a profit?  I charge more then you (looking at your 2011 pricing from facebook) and I barely break even from taxes and everything else and I do not have the overhead of a studio.   I guess that is what scares me.  What am I doing wrong?  How can you be so cheap and still make a profit charging 80 dollars for a session that includes images on a disk?


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## mwcfarms (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> mwcfarms said:
> 
> 
> > Ok I don't want this to get way out of hand but Sabrina you really need to accept responsibility here as well. I do think you have some great images, but at the same time you seem to run here everytime you have a basic question. If you maybe were a bit more humble when people are trying to help you then you wouldn't receive this kind of negative attitude. I know its a learning process and growing absolutely but your have this attitude that seems to rub people the wrong way and you do come here with very basic questions that you could answer for yourself if you took the time to look it up on youtube etc. Anyways I'm done commenting, good luck with your endevors.
> ...



You have no clue what I was talking about I guess. Way over the top of your head I guess. That is your problem you see what you want from someones post. Just for the record, I called BJ out a long time ago for well lol being BJ. I have no problem calling it like I see it but then I can take the good with the bad. Your snotty/snide attitude is just another reason to put you on ignore.


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## mishele (Jul 23, 2011)

&#x202a;WAYNE BRADY&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

LOL


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## vtf (Jul 23, 2011)

ababysean said:


> but how are you making a profit? I charge more then you (looking at your 2011 pricing from facebook) and I barely break even from taxes and everything else and I do not have the overhead of a studio. I guess that is what scares me. What am I doing wrong? How can you be so cheap and still make a profit charging 80 dollars for a session that includes images on a disk?



Do you think she knows business and accounting too, that's going to be a different upcoming thread.


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## Meekminx (Jul 23, 2011)

Why has this thread not been locked by now?


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## mishele (Jul 23, 2011)

^^^^^^^^SSSSSSHHHHHhhh!!!!! Don't tell!! If you stick around long enough you might find threads like this mildly funny.....


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## Ronaldo (Jul 23, 2011)

There's a 21 y/o college student living down the street from me.  She's studying biology, and plan's on going to med school.  However, she has always enjoyed playing with computers - - and to make some money she has put up her own website, which advertises her ability to create websites, for which she charges a fee.  Samples of other websites that she has done are on display.  (If med school doesn't work out, she may try to do something more with this website stuff.)

Having read this thread, I guess I should walk down the street, knock on her door, and insist that she close up shop.  I mean, she hasn't mastered CSS - - heck, she is only now learning CSS.  How dare she charge for her work while learning!  What a bad name she is giving to "professional" website developers!  And let's not even think about how she's destroying the market for them!

And here's the highest of tragedies:  Just think about what she is doing - - charging for her work without being blessed as a professional by members of an internet forum!!!

Sabrina, I can't believe the amount of garbage that has been thrown your way in this thread.  Keep going, learning and billing.  I truly wish you the best in your professional endeavors.


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## kundalini (Jul 23, 2011)

Ronaldo said:


> Sabrina, I can't believe the amount of garbage that has been thrown your way in this thread.


Ronaldo, no offence, but your'e an idiot if you believe this.


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## Ronaldo (Jul 23, 2011)

kundalini said:


> Ronaldo said:
> 
> 
> > Sabrina, I can't believe the amount of garbage that has been thrown your way in this thread.
> ...



Sabrina - See what I mean.

Mod - Do you put up with direct personal attacks in this forum?


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## The_Traveler (Jul 23, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> *Sorry I don't need to be anyones intern. * How about you? Maybe you should take a stab at it. Me I'm doing just fine wit my business and photography learning as I go.



Well, Sabrina, I may not know anything about studio lighting but whatever I know about anything else, I ain't telling you, Honey.


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## mrstravis (Jul 23, 2011)

Scoody said:
			
		

> An apt description of my first wife.  She should be paroled anyday now.



Lol at she should be paroled any day now.


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 25, 2011)

You mean this thread has died? Its been a whole day since the last post....


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## kundalini (Jul 25, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> You mean this thread has died? Its been a whole day since the last post....


Oh man..... I was hoping this would die of natural causes, but since you've resuscitated it, I almost feel obliged to add another reply............






SabrinaO said:


> OMGzzz ok, so I need to know how to shoot with a snoot before I become pro? I need to learn all about triggers then Ill become pro.


Everybody has their own set of work ethics to settle with. Likewise not everyone has their moral compass heading in the same direction. These are personal decisions that people make and they must deal with the consequences as they see fit. From my personal point of view, yes one should be familiar with snooting and triggering and a whole host of basic equipment functions before taking the position of charging for services. 



SabrinaO said:


> Your self-righteousness ooozes out of you.


Thank you. It&#8217;s also known as character.





SabrinaO said:


> In photography, you learn and grow as you go. There's a quote saying something like "your best picture is the one that you take tomorrow".


Absolutely, agreed 100%, couldn&#8217;t have said it better.



SabrinaO said:


> J/C... at least i'm asking questions and WANT to learn and get better instead of winging it and thinking i'm amazing when i'm not. But ill get there.


That&#8217;s great and I hope you reach your goals with photography and the times of plateauing are minimal. However, I can&#8217;t help but to believe that your reactions and behavior on TPF have yielded the types of responses you&#8217;ve received. 



SabrinaO said:


> Sorry we cant all be like you and were an instant fantastic photographer as soon as you picked up the camera... :er:


Yep, as soon as I was spat out of the womb, the old man slapped a Kodak Instamatic in my hands. Am I a better photographer than you? Probably not. Am I smarter than you? Probably not. Am I more knowledgeable than you in photography? You betçha. Do I have a better handle on my emotions? You betcha.






SabrinaO said:


> Get over yourself dude.
> 
> Once again... get over yourself.


Just to let you know, If I were able to &#8220;get over myself&#8221;, I would be spending a lot less time on this or any other forum, photography in general and walk around with a permanent &#8220;C&#8221; shape to my spine.



Since it&#8217;s quite apparent you do not wish to conduct yourself as an adult, it&#8217;s unlikely you will be treated in any other manner than that of a spoiled brat. I think that gsgary should stay in his role as the &#8220;thorn in your side&#8221; and I&#8217;ll be happy to be the &#8220;fly in the ointment&#8221;. The little poison arrows you are so quick to release are blunt, rubber tipped noodles filled with nitros oxide. It is entertaining and pathetic at the same time.


Oh yeah....... have a nice day.


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 25, 2011)

kundalini said:


> Oh man..... I was hoping this would die of natural causes, but since you've resuscitated it, I almost feel obliged to add another reply............




gees... I hate to see what happens when you see a roll of toilet paper... LOL!


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## elifant (Jul 25, 2011)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents. First, I'm a beginner. I have a business name because I hope to one day be able to charge for photography. But I don't plan on that happening for a while. But in the meantime I build my portfolio under my business name, I hope no one thinks that just because I stick a watermark on my pictures or have a facebook page or a website that I am actually charging people for my practice. 

Second, I think there is a lot of snootiness from pros towards beginners. But you know what? If I were them, and I put in the time and effort to educate myself, and people were coming to me for advice I would probably be snooty too. That's why I try to be pretty humble when asking for advice because I know that I'm getting the benefit of their work. 

And to the original question I prefer your own name as the business name (I use my name as my business name in interest of full disclosure). I am what I am selling. I am selling me, so I market me. So far "me" is not a very hot commodity


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## MissCream (Jul 25, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> You mean this thread has died? Its been a whole day since the last post....



Why in the world would you bring this back up?? If it stopped then let it be!


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## PhotoWrangler (Jul 25, 2011)

MissCream said:


> Why in the world would you bring this back up?? If it stopped then let it be!





Because at this point its become cheap entertainment. Kinda like watching NASCAR, all they do is drive in circles... but when there's nothing else on TV, whaddaya gonna do?


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## mwcfarms (Jul 25, 2011)

elifant said:


> I just wanted to add my 2 cents. First, I'm a beginner. I have a business name because I hope to one day be able to charge for photography. But I don't plan on that happening for a while. But in the meantime I build my portfolio under my business name, I hope no one thinks that just because I stick a watermark on my pictures or have a facebook page or a website that I am actually charging people for my practice.
> 
> Second, I think there is a lot of snootiness from pros towards beginners. But you know what? If I were them, and I put in the time and effort to educate myself, and people were coming to me for advice I would probably be snooty too. That's why I try to be pretty humble when asking for advice because I know that I'm getting the benefit of their work.
> 
> And to the original question I prefer your own name as the business name (I use my name as my business name in interest of full disclosure). I am what I am selling. I am selling me, so I market me. So far "me" is not a very hot commodity



I consider myself to be in the amateur photographer category and I have found that most of the time people are not snooty if you display the ability to to try and figure out things on your own and then if its unclear still or something doesn't make sense then to ask for help. A lot of people could use the search button and probably see 10 to 20 answers to their questions rather than asking the same question all the time. At the same time the level of graciousness in which people take C&C or use when asking for help etc makes a significant difference as well to the attitudes flung about the forums.


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## Dao (Jul 25, 2011)

My 2 cents:
- For business, I personally prefer a brand than personal name. (Unless you are famous for what you do already)
- And if you find a good business name and you are very serious about creating a business with that name, it is better to register it even if you do not know anything about the business.
- If you wait, by the time you are ready, someone else may use that name already.
- It is fine if you want to change it later once you are ready.  At least you have the option.



i.e. the name "iPhone" was not belongs to Apple, it was created by Linksys and later on belongs to Cisco when Cisco bought Linksys.   So when Apple (used to be Apple Computer, but they change their name to Apple, just like Dell Computer to Dell) release their iPhone, they had to deal with Cisco for the name.


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## Geaux (Jul 25, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> ....  My work speaks for itself. *I know what the hell i'm doing*. I just want to improve. ...



If you know what you are doing, then why do you come here asking questions like you don't know what you are doing?  Forgetting that your shutter is set too slow and noticing it after a client leaves is not "knowing what the hell I'm doing".  Sorry.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 25, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > ChristopherCoy said:
> ...


 You don't think that's just a little bit disingenuous? 





> There us no book or manual on when you are allowed to be a professional.


 No, but most people have a "moral compass".


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 25, 2011)

I have seen Sabrina's work.  I think they are pretty darn good for how long she has been doing it.


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## Gaerek (Jul 25, 2011)

Geaux said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > ....  My work speaks for itself. *I know what the hell i'm doing*. I just want to improve. ...
> ...



And here's the crux of the matter. I, like Kundalini was just fine letting it die, but since it's here, and since I don't have anything better to do right at this moment...

You talk like you know everything. Yet you're asking noob questions several times a week. Don't you think that's a contradiction? I sure do. You also are quick to take any positive reinforcement, but as soon as someone says anything critical, (especially your biggest critics, who I might add actually have given you GREAT advice that you just ignore) you become an emotional beast, blind to anything except the fact that someone said negative things about your work. We had some issues in the past. I believe I had stepped over the line back then, and have apologized. But I look at you today, and you still pick and choose what you want to hear. 

Do I believe you need to be the next Annie Leibowitz to be a professional photographer? No, not at all. But there are many basic things you really should know before you start accepting money for YOUR CHOSEN trade. Your questions here show that you have neither the skills nor experience to be shooting for money. You're treating your clients as test subjects, and charging them so you can learn the basics. Do you understand how bass ackwards that is? People usually pay to learn or use others as test subjects, not the other way around.

You mention you're business is doing just fine, and you have a ton of clients. That's great. So does the Picture People at your local mall. Difference is, I can go there and get the same quality of work (if not better, honestly) for half the price, and get prints done in under an hour. If you're ok accepting money from people, calling yourself a professional, not explaining that you're still learning, and there may be mistakes, then that's on your conscience. Just think about that next time you bring a client into your studio. I, for one, am done with this thread, and giving you any assistance in the future. I've tried helping you, and you refuse to listen. I wish you and your business well.


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## e.rose (Jul 25, 2011)

ChristopherCoy said:


> SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL SELF DESTRUCT AND MAY CAUSE MENTAL DEFECTS.



Seriously.

I was taking a break from editing and decided to come here... and then I clicked this thread... and now I have a headache.  I'm stopping with your post.  TL;DR (most of it).  I skimmed SOME of it, but I get the gist.

I'm retreating back to my safe room...


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## NikonME (Jul 25, 2011)

If I follow e.rose, does that make me a stalker?


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## kundalini (Jul 25, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I have seen Sabrina's work. I think they are pretty darn good for how long she has been doing it.


This is soooo far removed from being able to take a few good pictures Schwetty.  We're tapping on the edge of the philosophical realm.... truths, principles, knowledge and conduct.

I've never really figured out why they yell "Heads up", when in reality, you should duck and cover.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 26, 2011)

NikonME said:


> If I follow e.rose, does that make me a stalker?



Yes. I believe there's a weekly club meeting. SchwettyLens could fill you in on that.


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