# Successful Criticism



## abraxas (Jun 19, 2008)

So what is a critique?

_How and when should it be done?
_How should it be presented?
_When is it successful?

What works for you in both giving and recieving critique?


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## Alex_B (Jun 19, 2008)

the problem is, that often you do not know what the person posting the image expects/wants.

successful: when the OP learns about what others think about his image without being mortally offended. 

i know this is a very simple way of thinking, but that is the way i am.


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## Overread (Jun 19, 2008)

How:
First off I tell the person what I think they have done right in the shot and what I like about it - I consider this very important and put it first as it puts people in a more relaxed and less defensive frame of mind
Then I go on to note what I don't like and what areas I think could be improved on - then I go on to suggest how this might be done if I know how to do it (if not I simply say I don't know how to).

As for when - well personally I consider anything in the galleries barring the for fun ones to be fair game for comments and crits. There are some in the fun section that I will comment on occasionally, but I recegnise that these ones tend to be where people might not be shooting at their best.

As for presentation I consider this a 2 part game - firstly a person that posts photos and just photos is hard to comment on - especially when I try to adise about change to the technical aspects - I mean was it a digital or traditional shot, was it shot with a point and shoot or an SLR, was it taken in rushed or bad conditions what were the settings of it - aperture, ISO, shutter speed - shooting mode etc....
If these things are not said I will often ask the OP what they were in order that 2 things might happen:
1) I learn of a usfull setting to get an effect on a shot
2) I can be more helpful towards the op - for example if they shot with an all auto point and shoot most of the tech advice is not going to work as they can't change those settings.

When it works - when the comments are constructive and educational and I would also say complimentary. A totally negative lean to a post is not as helpful as it makes the reader feel defensive and also more likley to consider the post spitfull -even if that is not intended, so I try to avoid simply listing out the errors and how to change them

edit - unless the op specifically states what they want from comments or where they already know weakness is I just post all that I think I should - that is to say I don't worry about what they might want. They have not told me that there are any limits so I comment without them - composition, technical, lighting, colours etc.. they get everything that I can comment and know about


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## bigalbest (Jun 19, 2008)

I think I've learned my lesson and will probably keep my opinion to myself from now on. Unless my opinion is specifically asked for. I will still give general technical advise also but no opinions, those are dangerous.


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## Alpha (Jun 19, 2008)

A critique happens when a critic and a photographer love each other very much.

It should be done when the mood is right and both parties are receptive. Sometimes it's very sweet and loving and sometimes it's rough.

It should generally be presented in private, and sometimes with the lights on.

It's usually most successful when both parties get what they want or need out of it and neither one feels guilty the next morning.


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## Alex_B (Jun 19, 2008)

Alpha said:


> A critique happens when a critic and a photographer love each other very much.



very bad! did that once! she never showed me any of her images for over a year following that incident!


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## Alex_B (Jun 19, 2008)

bigalbest said:


> I think I've learned my lesson and will probably keep my opinion to myself from now on. Unless my opinion is specifically asked for. I will still give general technical advise also but no opinions, those are dangerous.



if you ever stumble across any of my images ... comment... also personal opinions... be rude but fair.

if you do not like it, tell me, i might cringe, but still it is valuable input.

if i want love and kisses, i will phone up my mum, not TPF


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## bigalbest (Jun 19, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> if you ever stumble across any of my images ... comment... also personal opinions... be rude but fair.
> 
> if you do not like it, tell me, i might crigen, but still it is valuable input.
> 
> if i want love and kisses, i will phone up my mum, not TPF



Good for you, I feel the same way.


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## saltface (Jun 19, 2008)

Alpha said:


> A critique happens when a critic and a photographer love each other very much.
> 
> It should be done when the mood is right and both parties are receptive. Sometimes it's very sweet and loving and sometimes it's rough.
> 
> ...


 
 For a moment, I didn't know what was going on.
But allegorically all correct. I worry if I seem too dismissive with my critiques.


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## Dioboleque (Jun 19, 2008)

Overread ~ are u a teacher in real life? if not u may have missed ur calling!

Alpha ~ too funny!

When? as often as possible
How? factually, honestly, & respectfully
When is it successful? When the OP learns quality information which they can apply to future photos :sillysmi:


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## Overread (Jun 19, 2008)

hehe you are the second person to think me a teacher - nope just someone who thinks that one should share what they know with others.

And for the sake of consistancy - 
When I comment on a shot I often lean away from photoshop advice past suggesting a lighting or levels change simply because it opens up a whole new level of skills and technicallities - unless the op asks for it of course.
Besides I always say where in a shot you might do things differently for "next time" because there often is a next time for many - maybe not the same subject, but similar conditions and lighting and if they shoot and make a mistake that they made before that means they are not learning - so I like to offer that advice.
And even if the op does not "need" that advice (they are a pro who just slipped up or it was something that they had no control over -like lighting angle) then others who view the shot can still learn


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 19, 2008)

The aim of a crit should be to help the photographer improve.
If this is to happen then the photographer first has to try to explain what he/she was trying to achieve*.
Only then you can determine whether the image is successful or not and start to give advice.
More often than not (and you see it happening on here all the time but I won't name names) people think they are giving crits but what they are in fact doing is merely pushing their own ideas of what a 'good' photograph should be. That is to say they merely state how _they_ would have taken the picture.
This does not help anyone. People should be encouraged to find their own approach and style, not be pushed into copying someone else.


*Thinking about what you are taking and why you are taking it is the first step to improvement. And it's never easy.


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 19, 2008)

Observations/feedback  on Exposure, General composition, sharpness at focal point, appropriate use of depth of field, and distractions to start...  then I guess if the subject of the image moves you in some way you could mention that and why...


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## Emerana (Jun 19, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> if you ever stumble across any of my images ... comment... also personal opinions... be rude but fair.
> 
> if you do not like it, tell me, i might cringe, but still it is valuable input.
> 
> if i want love and kisses, i will phone up my mum, not TPF




I agree very much with this.  I think anyone can give C&C on their overall impression, after all, you dont have to have a masters in photography to know what you like and dont.  In fact I often go to friends and ask them specifically if they like or dont like techniques I am trying out.  I know they cant give me technical C&C but they can tell me how it makes them feel.

Its successful if the OP has the capacity to grow and learn.


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## davidfromoz (Jun 19, 2008)

Lets assume that people reply to requests for comment on photos to help the poster (and not to showcase their own brilliance).

That being the case, it really depends on why the photo was posted.  If the person is looking for criticism then criticism is what you should give.  If the person is looking for compliments then that is what you should give.  If you can't deliver then don't.

So the next time I post photos for comment I am going to clearly specify that I am looking for comments on what could have been done to get a better result.  Hopefully that will encourage criticism of the sort I am looking for.

cheers,
david

<ps. please don't be shy in telling my what a brilliant post this is.  I am looking for compliments on this one>


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## Chiller (Jun 19, 2008)

First off, Im in no position to be giving critique to anyone, but I will just add my 2 cents. 
 I think first off, the person doing the crituque should find the positive points in the photo, then break it down, to what could have been done to improve it.   
Hertz hit the nail on the head.   Help with the photo, not give an opinion on how you want the photo to look. 
dEARlEADER...excellent points you made in your comment.  

If I was a better photographer, I would gladly offer any tips, or techy advice I have, but untill that happens, I wont be critiquing.  And if I did get better, I probably would not be hanging out here, but doing photography for a living. :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## kellylindseyphotography (Jun 19, 2008)

i think anyone/everyone should give critique.

the concern always for me- is WHEN to take it.  And when not to.  That should be every photogrpaher on here's concern.


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## reignmkr (Jun 19, 2008)

Shouldn't we take critique as subjective? After all, our photos are an interpretation. Without being too precocious, from reading Galen Rowell's Inner Game of Outdoor Photography, most of his photos were attempts to evoke some kind of feeling rather than superficial eye candy. 

When people give criticism, its usually more of an interpretation of what they felt when viewing the photo. Whether is it technical criticism, creative criticism or just flat out "you suck!" it's all-subjective.

IMO, if the photographer enjoys his work that's what matters.


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 19, 2008)

reignmkr said:


> Shouldn't we take critique as subjective? After all, our photos are an interpretation.



To a point yes... but also no...

if the subject photo is a bird but there is a strong distraction in the background .. an extended depth of field... and the bird is out of focus/not sharp...  half it's body is cut off  and it's underexposed two stops... these would be errors and generally not open for subjective interpretation...

compositional rules can be broken... but not just because.... there are reasons for these rules....

the same picture of the bird without distractions, shallow depth of field, the birds face, eyes, body tac sharp, properly exposed and framed will garner positive results tenfold....

fine art photography or abstract photography is more subjective and has a better ability to break rules while still effectively communicating a point...


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## abraxas (Jun 19, 2008)

Fascinating, and a very good answer in there too.

Now, 

What is it that makes your critique of value?  

Are you capable of criticising your own critique?    

What qualifies your technical opinion?

& Can you accept criticism of your critique skills?


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## Samriel (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not too much into the critique business on the forum, but I'll give it a try.

How and when should it be done?

It should be done when requested, and as requested. I like it when the artist states what he wants to hear. Even something vague like "What's your general impression?" is usually helpful. Of course, asking for detailed critique of the technique or esthetics and composition might help pin down certain problems with the image even better. When replying within the area of requested critique, be honest, even if it makes you be blunt. When giving critique that was not specifically requested (you _insist_ on giving the artist another view at things he might think he knows better), be diplomatic.

How should it be presented?

I'm not sure I understand this question correctly. Maybe I answered to a part of it in the previous question. 
I prefer critique to be a form of communication between the artist and the critique - a dialog, a discussion, or simply put and exchange of opionions. It is two way communication, where both the artist and his critique can learn something. I'm not sure this is possible in a forum though.

When is it successful?

If properly given, presented and taken, always.  I'm in a university photo group since March, and once a week we meet to comment each others work. Sometimes you don't get any critique, but when you do, you usually notice something you didn't notice before (for the better or the worse). It happens also if you are giving critique - by discussing with the artist, you learn something new, be it a technical detail, or a difference in perception / interpretation.


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## Samriel (Jun 19, 2008)

What is it that makes your critique of value?

If you could get something out if it, it is of value (reminds of my basic economy and business lectures). If I helped you improve your technical skills, rethink your approach, gave you something which inspired you further or just gave you a creative boost, or even just made you think more about your work, than my critique was of value.

 Are you capable of criticising your own critique?    

If you mean capable as in able to overcome my ego, then yes. If you mean capable as in able to do so based on my knowledge and experience concerning critisism, then not really (though I try).

 What qualifies your technical opinion?

I _try_ to stay away from (too) technical opinions at the moment, since I (usually) have no adequate knowledge base to make one - basically there is nothing to qualify my technical opinion except my limited experience in the subject, and after four months of shooting as an amateur, that's still very limited.

Can you accept criticism of your critique skills?

No problems with the ego here.


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 19, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Fascinating, and a very good answer in there too.
> 
> Now,
> 
> ...



lol ..... my brain hurts.... can i critique your questions?

if i critique your questions, are you technically capable of  accepting the criticism? as such, would you then be able to critique your own questions by firstly questioning the question in the second place from the perspective of a third party?

as to your questions in order - 

-it only serves value if the information is generally factual and helpful to the op or people studying the thread (btw - this is kind of a loaded question because a critique can serve a factual purpose and/or an opinionated purpose based on the art form) or both

-personally i have no problem of being corrected on a critique.. but i wouldn't say that i critique my critique other than to be positive in my mind about what it is i believe to be right or wrong

-a magic 8 ball .... and a strong believe that a proof is the proof...what kind of a proof? A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof it's because it's proven..





-yes... you can always be learning


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 19, 2008)

abraxas said:


> What is it that makes your critique of value?
> 
> Are you capable of criticising your own critique?
> 
> ...



I was a lecturer in Photography for some 15 years and I am supposed to be preparing a PhD submission on the subject if that helps. :lmao:

But all critique is just personal opinion and nothing more - though some opinions are more 'informed' than others. That is, all critique is valid but that is not the same as being of value. 
The only person who can say if a critique is of value is the person receiving the critique. If it gives them an insight into their work or technique and helps them improve in some way then it is useful*.
This means that a person must evaluate their own work as well as evaluating any crit they receive. Accepting a crit blindly and following advice given slavishly is not the way to self-improvement.
'Good' photography is not simply a matter of technical competence. You can have a technically superb image that is as dull as ditch-water. 'Good' images are a form of self-expression so becoming 'good' is more a journey of self-discovery than of anything else.
What are you trying to say? Who are you saying it to? Why do you want to say it? These are all questions that a photographer must ask themselves at some point. You do not need to be able to put the answer into words for it to be of use (if you could put the answers into words then you would be a writer), just understand that the taking of pictures is the way you explore yourself to find the answers.
Photography is a form of communication so if you do not know (even at the most basic level) what you are trying to communicate then how do you expect anyone else to get anything out of your work?


*Which makes it essential for the person giving the crit to not just say 'do X' or 'don't do Y' but to explain in understandable terms WHY they think what they are suggesting would be an improvement.


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## dEARlEADER (Jun 19, 2008)

Well Hertz makes some very valid points here... well said.. a very Canadian perspective....


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## LaFoto (Jun 20, 2008)

Samriel said:


> How should it be presented?
> I prefer critique to be a *form of communication* between the artist and the critique - a dialog, a discussion, or simply put and exchange of opionions. It is two way communication, where both the artist and his critique can learn something. I'm not sure this is possible in a forum though.



This is a statement which I like (along with everything Hertz repeatedly says whenever there are questions coming on "What is Critique?" and "How are we to put forward Critique?"), for it reflects exactly what I feel critiquing anyone's artistic expressions (in any form) should at best be like: communication. 

And I believe that also a forum such as this one offers exactly this room for communication, and I feel that communication is the major aspect of all internet forums.

Critique should not inherently mean (and sound like it) that "I know better than you do hence I can tell you what to do!" As much as the author of a photo should ask himself "What do I want to express?", any critic should constantly ask themselves, too "Who am I, what do I like, what do I dislike, and WHY do I like this but not THAT?" Since on here both photo author and photo critic consider themselves to be "photographers" (in the broadest sense of the word), they actually are in the same boat, which is why it is equally important for BOTH to constantly try to explore THEMSELVES, so in the end they can better state their own preferences and give reasons for why they prefer one to the other. Either in creating their own work, or in critiquing/commenting on someone else's work. 

I often put forward _questions_ in my comments about someone's photos here. This is to engage them in a conversation on their photos, much rather than come down on them like "But you must do it like THIS!" (because that'd be how I want a photo to look like). Often it works nicely ...


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## abraxas (Jun 20, 2008)

Hertz,

I've got to say I learn more about myself, from myself, because of things I've learned from your relatively ~few posts.  I believe I'm a better artist for the experience. Thank you.

--

I suppose from this point it's pretty much rhetoric other than saying in earnest, that I enjoy interaction with my friends and others I've come to trust through mutual display and discussion of our photos.  

Thanks for your thoughts!


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## JerryPH (Jun 20, 2008)

Alpha said:


> A critique happens when a critic and a photographer love each other very much.
> 
> It should be done when the mood is right and both parties are receptive. Sometimes it's very sweet and loving and sometimes it's rough.
> 
> ...



Dude, you critiquing or making love?  Either way, after reading it, I needed a cold shower!    

--------------

Lately all this critiquing BS needs to be put into perspective.  If we truly are at the point where we are evaluating HOW to critique, we are definitely in a bad place.

To the people doing the critique:
Say what you want with the intention of not being hurtful, but concise in your dissertation of the critique.  Separate "art" and "opinion" from "technical".  Take the time to explain WHY.  Without you explaining your WHY, your critique is USELESS.  Always, always, always finish on a positive note, on everything else... feel free to pontificate ad nauseum.

To the people asking for the critiques:
If you want the BEST critique that anyone has to offer you, DON'T put restrictions on them, let it flow... good or bad, easy or rough... READ IT, learn from it, thank the person for their effort, ask them to expand on something that is not clear to you, and move on.  While you have moved on, take from the critique all that you want/need... and dump the rest.  Do whatever you need to do to get better. DO NOT ARGUE OR DISPUTE THEIR POINTS! 

If everyone does that, guess what... no more critique BS issues, and everyone is happy.


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## simulacra2525 (Jun 20, 2008)

Its very hard to objective about something you have an opinion over, but i think we are capable of seeing talent in an art we dont like much. So i guess its about differenciating. I think eminem is talented but i dont much like his music  . . .


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## abraxas (Jun 20, 2008)

simulacra2525 said:


> Its very hard to objective about something you have an opinion over, but i think we are capable of seeing talent in an art we dont like much. So i guess its about differenciating. I think eminem is talented but i dont much like his music  . . .



The more I read this, the more it makes sense to me.  I believe I agree. This is applicable on both sides of both sides; differentiating objectivity/opinion regarding my art to me, my art to others, others to me and I think most importantly myself to myself, is the key.

I hope I understood correctly.

Thanks!!!


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 20, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> If we truly are at the point where we are evaluating HOW to critique, we are definitely in a bad place.



Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.
Constant questioning of your own views, opinions and values is a good thing to do.
It's only a bad thing if you refuse to question your beliefs and opinions, or to defend them. You may _think_ you know what you mean or that you understand what you are doing, but if you never actually examine yourself then you do not know if you are correct in your beliefs or not. 
By questioning yourself then you are admitting the possibility that you could be mistaken, and doing this puts you in a receptive frame of mind that allows you to learn.
This is difficult I know because it appears as a threat to the ego. I have taught people who have argued themselves into the most ridiculous and untenable position for no other reason than they cannot admit they are wrong, seeing it as a sign of weakness. It is only a sign of stupidity.
Any politician will serve as an example.
If threads like this asking such questions leads even just one person to improve their understanding of things then it is worth it.


Abraxas: I don't respond much because others generally say pretty much what I would say - and my ego doesn't require me to say it anyway. Unlike some.
I tend to only respond when no-one else has.
I'm always available by PM to anyone - and that is the only way anyone will ever get a picture crit out of me :mrgreen:


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## sabbath999 (Jun 20, 2008)

Honestly, the only people I pay attention to in critique from whose work I have seen and respect.

Everybody has an opinion, and has a right to express it. 

Everybody, however, does not have an INFORMED opinion worth listening to.

I don't offer critique, generally, because I don't feel qualified to do so. I am a total hack when it comes to my work, and I freely admit it. There are some very talented people around here who do fine work, and there are a lot of hacks who THINK they do fine work. There are also a lot of folks who offer opinions who don't post their own stuff, so I have no idea whether they are actually very good or just blowhards.

I offer opinions on equipment that I own or have used. I answer specific questions to the best of my ability. That's about all you will get from me.


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## Village Idiot (Jun 20, 2008)

I believe you have to first be able to step away from your own work and not look at it as a father or mother viewing their child but as some one that's not related to the work and viewing it through the "C&Cer's" eyes. If some one says your work is a horrible piece of trash with bad exposure, too much grain, and suffering from a horrible choice of too much saturation and contrast, you have to be able to pick out why they said that and objectively look at your work and say "they may be right".

Too many people here get so offensive when one out of ten people don't say "good job" and actually criticise their work. I mean this,



> Photo Galleries
> Photos submitted by members for general display or critique.


 
is posted above the gallery section with the exception of the Just for fun forum. If you can't honestly handle critique, you need to note that in your post. Keep in mind you'll get comments and critiques ranging from posters with years of experience to those with weeks of experience. If you have a hard time sorting them out or you can't step back from your photo and look at it through their eyes, then you don't benefit from any of it.

Plus insulting people and calling them names is something that should seriously not be in any critique post.



			
				abraxas said:
			
		

> What is it that makes your critique of value?
> 
> Are you capable of criticising your own critique?
> 
> ...


 
- My experience. I don't critique the types of photography that I don't know or don't like unless there's basic problems that could use help. I don't like nature photography, taking pictures of flowers, or wedding photography. I do a lot of work with artificial lighting and people and such. I've done work for clients in this field and I'm putting together a decent glamour portfolio. I obviously have a good comprehension of lighting and can help out people when they're asking for C&C. I can't tell you why your flower picture is good beyond the basics and the lighting.

-Yes. I _normally_ only post photos that I feel are worth posting. That's why you don't see me posting a million photos. Even the ones I do post, I can look at the from another's point of view when it comes to their comments.

-In ten years I think I've finally figured out what I'm doing.

-As long as people aren't openly insulting me for it.


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## JerryPH (Jun 20, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.
> Constant questioning of your own views, opinions and values is a good thing to do.


 
Either I was not clear, or you misunderstood me. I am not questioning that CC is good or bad, I recognize it as a good thing, and I do know when and where to go for my critique. However, this incessant whining about how to process and complete this process of how to both ask for a critique and then how to post one. It's been so chewed to death its beyond rediculous. 

On one side we have people looking for CC and have no concept on how to accept it... and then the other side are people that have no idea how to give it. The biggest issues are not coming frmo ANYWHERE else BUT this group, if you look at it!!

I am not saying everyone is like that, but I am saying that one one side we have to tell people to water down their critique to not offend anyone, and on the other side, tell the ones that want sincere opinions to toughen up... does that really need to be even said?



Hertz van Rental said:


> By questioning yourself then you are admitting the possibility that you could be mistaken, and doing this puts you in a receptive frame of mind that allows you to learn.


 
You speak of the process of CCing when done properly... I cannot but agree.  This is not the issue causing us greif, unfortunately.



Hertz van Rental said:


> This is difficult I know because it appears as a threat to the ego.


 
Only to those that are afraid of criticism. A critique is not that, it is supposed to be a sincere attempt at sharing technical, opinion and art based information for the betterment of the person so that they can improve. If you are afraid to get a bruised ego, don't ask for a CC, simple as that, no?



Hertz van Rental said:


> I have taught people who have argued themselves into the most ridiculous and untenable position for no other reason than they cannot admit they are wrong, seeing it as a sign of weakness. It is only a sign of stupidity.


 
It goes even a little beyond that. That position of desiring to argue is not what your average person asking for a CC comes in with in terms of a mindset on this club. It is either someone looking for a pat on the back (attention monger?), or someone looking for sincere CC to impove. If they are insecure, they get all hurt. Thats a poor mindset. If they come in expecting a pat on the back, and get tranmpled, get all insulted. Thats a poor mindset. If they are falsly praised, they learn nothing. Thats a poor mindset too.

Pointing back to my post above, if you are asking for a CC, grit your teeth, smile and take it and THANK the person for caring enough to care to post. Afterwards, learn what you can. This is only possible when the ego and insecurity is set aside for a moment. 



Hertz van Rental said:


> Any politician will serve as an example.


 
AMEN!!  



Hertz van Rental said:


> If threads like this asking such questions leads even just one person to improve their understanding of things then it is worth it.


 
My contention is that I am flabbergasted that:
1 - People do not know how to offer proper critique
2 - People do not know how to accept a proper critique

... and that just blows me away that it needs to be even said. :meh:

There is nothing easier than to open your heart and speak your mind and tell someone what you think of their work on a technical, art and opinionated level and explain why you said what you said. There is nothing easier than to sit back, look at someone's CC and accept it for what it is at face value, take what you consider beneficial out of it and leave the rest behind.

That is the basics of the system that a critique should be based on.


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## Overread (Jun 20, 2008)

out of interest - can anyone direct me to 10 recent examples where comments/crits has gone wrong?
I don't mean posts where no one has commented - which for what ever reason have fallen through the net, but ones where we have this massive arguing and problems - only I just don't seem to be seeing them around in the vast numbers that threads like this one are suggesting - might be I am just missing them or looking in the wrong place


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## Emerana (Jun 20, 2008)

I have a hard time understanding why anyone gets their panties in a twist over C&C.  If it isnt helpful to you, thats fine, dont apply it to your psyche or work.  If it hurts your feelings, toughen up.  If someone's opinion negatively affects your art, thats your issue not theirs.  Seek out opinions from people who matter to you and dont ask a bunch of strangers online.  And if you only want a pat on the head and an "atta boy", call your mom.

Another note, out of the top, say, 100 experts on this board, I would be willing to bet 10% or more are significantly padding their cred or outright lying about their level of photography.  You could be taking advice from a smooth talking 17 year old punk who thinks he knows everything (I think there are a couple out there).  And if you say "noooooo I see their work so I know".  Think hard.  Have you?


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 20, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> My contention is that I am flabbergasted that:
> 1 - People do not know how to offer proper critique
> 2 - People do not know how to accept a proper critique
> 
> ... and that just blows me away that it needs to be even said.



I think we are both singing from the same song book.
But why should this surprise you?
We don't know how to find a square root or ride a bicycle until we are taught how.
Giving and receiving a crit are things that have to be learned and I would imagine that few here have ever received a proper crit (as one would get if one was studying Photography full time at College).
So never having received a proper crit it is not surprising that people do not know how to give one.
What generally happens is that they confuse personal opinion for fact (politicians again) and personal prejudice for knowledge.
I am amazed, though, that people appear to be proud of being self-taught.
Would you let a doctor near you with a knife, or let a tradesman loose in your home if they announced that they were self-taught and had got it all out of a book?
I know I wouldn't.
So why should Photography be any different?* :mrgreen: 





*I'm sorry but I just have this urge to throw a cat amongst the pigeons to-day.


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## LaFoto (Jun 20, 2008)

OK. Cat among the pigeons. Right.

But ...

...this is an internet forum, *pasttime. Entertainment.*

Not a hospital where you go and are frightfully sick. Which is why not everyone NEEDS to be a doctor to speak their mind.

Internet forums are means of communication. Not an auditory in university.


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## kundalini (Jun 20, 2008)

Speaking of animals amongst us.....


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## Arch (Jun 20, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> I think we are both singing from the same song book.
> But why should this surprise you?
> We don't know how to find a square root or ride a bicycle until we are taught how.
> Giving and receiving a crit are things that have to be learned and I would imagine that few here have ever received a proper crit (as one would get if one was studying Photography full time at College).
> ...




I didn't feel like joining this debate as it been covered a few times before.

But this post from Hertz pretty much sums up my opinion.

I have seen some god awful crits on many photo forums... what is a bad crit? Its difficult to word correctly.. but i can demonstrate my opinion with an example.

One girl did a few arty self ports... she stated they were ment to be moody and make you wonder what she is thinking... among other things..

They worked for me... the expressions she used, tired, listless looking... the light was low... the room was messy and the framing wasn't perfect like you'd just walked in on her.


She had already recieved 4 'crits' when i got to the thread. Unlucky for her, the 4 'crits' missed the point by a mile.
It actually started with the first guy and the others just seemed to aimlessly agree.
They said things like 'they are too dark'.... 'try and use a reflector for the other side of your face'.... 'the end of your foot is out of the frame'... and best of all,.. 'try and smile you look a bit miserable'.....

Now, lets just take the first guys 'critique'... he is giving advice as to what he has seen and heard a good portrait should be... lighting... position... expression... but he has zero art training. Therefore his crit was shallow, misinformed and for the OP, completely useless. He may as well have said 'if you go 10 miles into the city you could use a studio instead of your living room'.

This type of crit happens quite alot.... and the main reason for this is a lack of understanding  and training on the behalf of the person giving the crit.

The OP should state what they were trying to do... and what the image is for. If the image is for commercial purposes then a more technical critique may be given (altough artistic interpretation is always useful too)... If the image is more artistic expression tho, then technical advice should really only be given once it is known what the OP is trying to achieve... and even then it can be a matter of opinion.

All of the above is what heppens when people try and give serious crits tho... for the majority of pics that get posted here a general 'that lampost is in the way' can surfice and it doesnt always need to go deeper than that.


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 20, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> ...this is an internet forum, *pasttime. Entertainment.*
> 
> Not a hospital where you go and are frightfully sick. Which is why not everyone NEEDS to be a doctor to speak their mind.
> 
> Internet forums are means of communication. Not an auditory in university.



This is indeed true in principle yet people still come here looking for advice and help concerning the pictures they take or the equipment they have got.. There are numerous threads started by people asking how they go about becoming professionals. And look at all those comments along the lines of 'I just bought myself a camera and want to learn how to use it so I came here'.
It seems to me that people use it like a University. 
I was making the point though that threads like this discussing what a critique is, how it should be given and how it should be received are very important because there are, I am sure, a lot of people who would like to know the answers. And there are certainly a lot of people here who have never experienced a 'proper' one but would like to.
This thread is no different from one that begins 'I want to buy a camera, which one should I get? Canon or Nikon?'
And it is also about communication because we are sharing our views on the subject. And as there are people here with a wide and varied range of experiences you will get a wide range of views expressed - from the basic through to the academic.
This thread should therefore be viewed as being like a crit. Read it, think about it and if any opinion expressed helps you in what you are trying to do then take it on board. Anything that you don't think helps ignore.
The only important thing is to keep an open mind and not reject things out of hand because they don't confirm your personal beliefs. :study:


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## LaFoto (Jun 21, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> It seems to me that people use it like a University.


 
They should know, however, that they do so at their own risk 
This is not The*Professors'*Forum . 



Hertz van Rental said:


> The only important thing is to keep an open mind and not reject things out of hand because they don't confirm your personal beliefs. :study:


 
Very true. Well said. :thumbup:


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## pm63 (Jun 21, 2008)

Photo critique is a touchy business, and there are many who will argue because they don't accept your opinion or cannot take CC.

I believe it should be polite and by no means discouraging, and above all constructive. Plain rude critique that is derogatory to the photographer, though it happens rarely, should be heavily frowned upon. I also think both parties should take it lightly and be open to discussion, and keep in mind that an opinion is just that; an opinion.

I do not think there are any hard-and-fast specific formulas for how a critique should be done.


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## jwkwd (Jun 21, 2008)

Simple, I don't. I don't post photo's, because what I do and what I like is for me, so I pretty much don't care what people think. I believe that since I have been going to this board I critiqued maybe 3 or 4  photo's and those were just wonderful and needed a " great job " said about them. I usually don't even look at them anymore. I find myself starting to read what other people say,  instead of just looking at the photo and moving on. Then sooner or later, some one will say that this is blown out or whatever, and the OP get's upset, then it becomes a MP thing, then a Nikon, Canon thing..........


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## Dioboleque (Jun 21, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> It seems to me that people use it like a University.


 
I can vouch for this personally. I found this site via Google while searching for photography assignments. My interest in photography was growing and I looked and looked for classes and such, but I could not find anything locally aside from colleges and online courses which were $$$. Also, I'd always been told by friends and family that my pictures were really nice, but I'm no idiot, I know how that goes; so I came here to find out if anyone else agreed... so far, not so much. So now it seems my mission is to one day take photos that the members here think are really nice too. I can like my own stuff and that's just fine, but I'd prefer to take pics which are widely accepted as nice, pics which I can confidently be proud of. :sillysmi:


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 21, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> This is not The*Professors'*Forum



I would beg to differ. If you remember Chase originally created this particular forum for me :lmao:


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## LaFoto (Jun 21, 2008)

No, I don't remember that, and I've been here for more than half a year longer than you have :greenpbl: ... but hey, you are the first to say there's no room here for 

BIG EGOs​which is why your assumption soooooooooooooooooooooo fits, of course! ​


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## Mike_E (Jun 21, 2008)

*scholar*
     n 1: a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who
          by long study has gained mastery in one or more
          disciplines [syn: scholarly person, student]
     2: someone (especially a child) who learns (as from a teacher)
        or takes up knowledge or beliefs [syn: learner, assimilator]
     3: a student who holds a scholarship

No one to my knowledge has ever been given an education by anyone.  It is entirely up to the student to acquire any and all information.  Unless you could crack open some one's head and pour it in there won't be any given either.  

With all due respect, a degree only says that you have convinced someone that you have done the work, not that you have actually done it.  I will grant that paying someone else to show you how something is done makes learning far easier than going solo!  None the less going solo is doable and the only option for many.

Tag ya'll


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## JerryPH (Jun 21, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> I am amazed, though, that people appear to be proud of being self-taught.
> Would you let a doctor near you with a knife, or let a tradesman loose in your home if they announced that they were self-taught and had got it all out of a book?
> I know I wouldn't.
> So why should Photography be any different?* :mrgreen:





Because if I miss a picture, a life is not placed in peril in comparison to someone dissecting a liver or performing a kidney removal?  :lmao:

The LAST thing I would want to hear in surgury is... "DRAT, cut the wrong kidney out, ok, let me raise ISO, recompose and try again..."   

Comparing a doctor to a photographer is not really a good example.

I'm definitely not poo-poo-ing on a formal education, however proof shows that many more professionals have no formal education in it than those that do.  Recent look-arounds at many professional photography organizations places it at somewhere between 70-80 % self-taught vs those with a formal education in photography.


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## JerryPH (Jun 21, 2008)

pm63 said:


> Photo critique is a touchy business


... for those not ready to receive a critique. 



pm63 said:


> I believe it should be polite and by no means discouraging, and above all constructive. Plain rude critique that is derogatory to the photographer, though it happens rarely, should be heavily frowned upon.


We're all big boys and big girls here.  I see NOTHING wrong with someone saying "your pic *SUCKS* and is the *WORST* picture I have ever seen..."  if this is what the person doing the critique sincerely feels... as long as it follows with:

"... and the technical reasons are... my opinions are... and form an artistic standpoint it..."  

It SHOULD finish with:  "here are specific things you should consider looking at, A. B C, and in the future try this and this and this...  finally, I did like *this* aspect of your pic".

If someone cannot take that... its time they wait a few more birthdays past the 5th one to post asking for a critique.  Their response SHOULD be... "thank-you for the effort you put in your critique" and END OF STORY.  The rest happens in the background where you take what you want, learn and chuck the rest in the (as the french say) "POO-belle" (phonetic french for garbage bin... lol)

Whats so hard or touchy about this??


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 21, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> however proof shows that many more professionals have no formal education in it than those that do.  Recent look-arounds at many professional photography organizations places it at somewhere between 70-80 % self-taught vs those with a formal education in photography.



I don't know what proof you have seen but in the UK the majority of _top_ photographers in Advertising and Editorial have had formal education.
If you include wedding photographers and the like then you may be right.
But that just says something unflattering about the requirements that type of photography 
I have met a lot of big boys in the Photography world. Only one was self-taught and he was arrogant, opinionated and thought 'College boys' were beneath contempt - quite clearly a defense mechanism at work there.

OK. Don't want to compare doctor/photographer?
You can compare any profession you like to Photography and the answer comes out the same. If you are paying someone good money for something you would not feel particularly confident in their skills if you knew they had taught themselves. You would always go to someone with a recognised qualification for choice. I know I would.
So why should Photography be the exception?


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

What if we are not asking for critique, and just enjoy showing our photos.  Should I not even post our photos on forums then?  Soundling like a good idea after reading this thread, especially on TPF. Or does this mean, I can only post in the Just for Fun gallery.  No, Im not a suck, and I have also had enough birthdays to understand, and I can also handle critique.


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## LaFoto (Jun 21, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> If you are paying someone good money for something you would not feel particularly confident in their skills if you knew they had taught themselves. You would always go to someone with a recognised qualification for choice.


 
OK.
But you seem to be comparing apples with oranges now, for this thread is about how to put out a successful critique *here* (well, at least I think that's what abraxas wants to know), on this very forum, an _internet_ forum, where most of us come to spend their pasttime, gain a bit of entertainment and form long-distance friendships (maybe) with people who share their passion. And *here* you need not be a professor of photography in order to comment on someone else's work. *Here* everyone's invited to say what they think about photos put out for the world to see them. 

And it is just a matter of common sense, courtesy and a bit of empathy, and already you know how critiquing someone's photographic work can possibly work.


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 21, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> OK.
> But you seem to be comparing apples with oranges now, for this thread is about how to put out a successful critique *here* (well, at least I think that's what abraxas wants to know), on this very forum, an _internet_ forum, where most of us come to spend their pasttime, gain a bit of entertainment and form long-distance friendships (maybe) with people who share their passion. And *here* you need not be a professor of photography in order to comment on someone else's work. *Here* everyone's invited to say what they think about photos put out for the world to see them.



It is you who seems to be getting confused.
I did not say that you had to be a professor to give a critique, only that being able to give a _good_ critique is something that has to be learned.
Learning implies teaching. If you are learning something it stands to reason that the easiest way to learn is to be taught. And I think that people who have experience of 'proper' critique are well placed to impart their knowledge in this area to anyone interested.
Of course anyone can comment on another persons work - but making comments is not the same thing as giving a critique


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> What if we are not asking for critique, and just enjoy showing our photos. Should I not even post our photos on forums then? Soundling like a good idea after reading this thread, especially on TPF. Or does this mean, I can only post in the Just for Fun gallery. No, Im not a suck, and I have also had enough birthdays to understand, and I can also handle critique.


 
I thought the "Just for Fun" section was about for that very purpose - not just for the odd times when you got a cool shot or when you want to show off some pet shots that are less than your best, but great because its your cat leaping 5ft in the air. The rest of the sections are for crits (as well as general comments)

As for teaching and learning - one can learn a lot through the web and through books. One could also grab a mentor from the mentors list on this site (blatent, shamless self advertising) and then get some direction from another in photography. Granted this is nothing like getting a proper course education in photography or spending several years working as an understudy to a pro in the area you are best interested in -- but that is not to say you cannot learn a lot.
I think through self taught people can learn best how to approach a select area of photography whilst those who go through a school or university would pick up more general usage and understandings on the course


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## dylj (Jun 21, 2008)

Here is the model for critiques in an online forum setting. It's very structured, very rigid, and not for everybody. I'm not saying it's the best way -- but I think a lot of people have been clamoring for something like this.

I've taken this from everypoet.org, "Poetry Free-for-all". I'll replace all relevant instances of "poem" with "photo", "poetry" with "photography", "writer" with "photographer".

1. PFFA is _not_ a showcase. It is a *photo workshop*. That means work is to be posted here for only one reason: to receive comments that will help the photograher to improve the photo and to improve as a photographer. If that's what you're looking for, you've found it. 

However, if all you're looking for is simply a place to show off your work, you haven't found what you're looking for, and you would be better advised to look elsewhere. 

Here you will receive constructive comments on what needs to be done to your work to make it better. *NOTE*: "Constructive" does not necessarily mean complimentary, flattering, or pleasant; many are likely to be negative, even harsh. That is the nature of a workshop. You can't improve if you're just told that you're a good little photographer and get patted on the head. *If you can't handle negative criticism, don't post. We mean it. *

1b. The proper response to negative criticism is simple: "Thank you; I'll take your suggestions into consideration." No arguments, shouting, or self-defensive whining; these will simply get your thread moved to the "Outside" Forum where no one will comment on it. Repetitions will get you banned.

2. Because PFFA is a workshop, there are definite expectations regarding the use of language. In general, we expect all posters, whether poets, poetasters or critics, to do their best to ensure the correct use of basic grammar, spelling, punctuation, typography, and syntax in their posts. We're not a chatroom; we're a workshop that respects the best uses of the English language. *Posts exhibiting numerous major errors or non-standard usages such as internet chatroom shorthand conventions will probably be deleted*.

Artistic licence will, of course, be respected. However, don't be surprised if we need convincing that the licence is indeed artistic.

3. You may post *1 photo per forum per 24 hours*. Posts in excess of 1 per 24 hours will be deleted on sight.

3 (b). Revised versions of photos should be posted in separate threads, clearly labelled as revisions of previously-posted pieces. Posted revisions are considered as separate photos and count in your "one-post-per-24-hours" tally. Each revision carries its own 3-crit obligation.

3 (c). *Polls are not allowed on work posted to the critical forums.*

3 (d). Do not post in all caps.

4. *You are to comment on three others' work for each piece you post; your comments must be in the same forum as your own work is posted.* 

5. Comments are to be directed to the photo, not to other posters' comments or to idle chatting: "PFFA is not a chat room and 'fluff' comments are discouraged in the critical forums. Email and ICQ are wonderful things&#8212;use them for personal dialog." 

6. *A Note on the Critical Forums*: The critical forums at PFFA are graduated, from "General" up to "Advanced C&C"; these graduations are based on two interrelated criteria: *1. the quality of the work, and where you post depends in part upon your skill and experience level; 2. the quality of the critiques you are capable of providing to others and these must meet the standards set forth in the following discussion of the various forums. Individuals whose work is not up to the standards of a particular forum or whose critiques fail to meet the forum requirements will be redirected to post in lower forums until they can satisfy the moderators they have improved sufficiently to post in higher-level forums.* Most new posters will find their work is appropriate to "General" or the "C&C Forums," _not_ the upper-level forums. Quite simply, it you don't know what a catalectic trochee is, don't understand what Eliot meant by "objective correlative," can't distinguish between a synecdoche and a metonymy, think _heart_, _soul_, _'tis_, _dost_, and _shard_ are good words to use in poems, believe that clichés and abstractions make a poem more "universal," and don't know the difference between _its_ and _it's_, you're not ready to post in "High" or "Advanced C&C," so don't. And moderators will move work to lower-level forums if they feel it isn't up to the standards of the forum in which the writer has originally placed it.

*"General"*--This forum is the lowest level and is intended for beginners; the critiques here are usually very general remarks, not detailed analyses of problems. It is, in essence, the "Crit-Lite" forum. The level of critique required for the "General" and the various "Chaos" forums is explained in this thread. (*NOTE*: The "Chaos" forums are _not_ considered "critical" forums.)

*"C&C"* and *"Scansion Mansion"*--The intermediate-level forums for those with some experience who wish to begin seriously the process of learning to improve their work. The specific forum guidelines are here:

The C&C Forums

and the requirements for critique there are found inthis thread and the link it contains to andrea345's critique.

*Scansion Mansion"*--This forum is specifically for metrical verse, as its guidelines make clear:

Scansion Mansion

*"Charon's Schooner"*--This is a transition forum from the C&C-level forums to the "Advanced C&C" forum. It is a specialized forum for concentrated work involving multiple revisions over a lengthy period of time of a single work which has demonstrated it has promise. Entrance into this forum requires a solid basis of previous experience:

Charon's Leaky Schooner

*"High" and "Advanced C&C/Merciless"* -- These forums are for the most experienced writers and for work that is very near publication quality. The "High" forum guidelines are here and the Advanced C&C Guidelines are here. The level of critique required in "Advanced C&C" and "Underground C&C" is explained in these two threads:

Careful Reading and Critique: Focus & Filters 

Critique Guidelines: Focus & Filters Crib Sheet 


7. For those who are less experienced writers (and that includes the majority of those who post here), you might wish to visit Transition Triage either to read or to take part in the exercise sessions.

8. PFFA is a moderated board; that means several things:

A. If the moderators feel that you have posted above your current abilities, they can, and often do, move your poem to a lower critical forum or lock the thread and direct you to post elsewhere.

B. Moderators may step in from time to time and comment off-topic if the discussion in the thread needs to be directed back toward the topic, or if the remarks made are decidedly uninformed.

C. We at reserve the right to delete any message at any time for any or no reason whatsoever. 

--

For those who don't like to read: Basically, there are levels of critique forums: Going from beginner to advanced. A person who posts a poem (photo) in the advanced forum must also post at least three critiques in that forum. Both the photo and the critiques must be "advanced" quality. Critiques usually take 30 minutes to an hour to write. Moderators are very aggressive in moving/deleting posts if they determine that a critique or poem is not up to par.

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming that this is the best system. This is just to give a taste of the other extreme that abraxas and others might be interested in.


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

dylj said:


> ...
> 
> As I said earlier, I'm not claiming that this is the best system. This is just to give a taste of the other extreme that abraxas and others might be interested in.



Sounds hideous- too many words.


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 21, 2008)

Ditto that - sounds more like an exam than a forum - 'scuse me if we don't.


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## Mike_E (Jun 21, 2008)

Just to stir the coals, If one extrapolated Hertz's logic then one could assume that his insistence in believing that a formal education being the only real way to learn illustrates a need to justify his time spent in corporate education.  








Yea, I've read Hemingway, why?    LOLOLOL


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> I thought the "Just for Fun" section was about for that very purpose -


 
I think I will just stay in there then.  This forum has become for professionals only.


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> I think I will just stay in there then. This forum has become for professionals only.


 
I hope they don't come to the nature section - I can't compete with those L loaded pros


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> I hope they don't come to the nature section - I can't compete with those L loaded pros


 I just miss the snapshots gallery.  It was safe there.  No pressure at all.


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> I just miss the snapshots gallery.  It was safe there.  No pressure at all.



Chiller,

The galleries were cool before to post in, they are cool now. A few months ago it was impolite to criticise without a request indicated for C&C and it's just as impolite now.  Do what you like to do where you like to do it.  I think some people don't have the necessary skills to understand when a critique should take place- *when requested*.

I'm just going to keep posting what I like, where I like for the reasons I like.  

So sue me.


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Chiller,
> 
> The galleries were cool before to post in, they are cool now. A few months ago it was impolite to criticise without a request indicated for C&C and it's just as impolite now. Do what you like to do where you like to do it. I think some people don't have the necessary skills to understand when a critique should take place- *when requested*.
> 
> ...


 
Many moons ago, when TPF was new, you could post anywhere, get good honest critique, without the bull headed attitude. Trust me man, 90% of the stuff I learned was from the old(not age) members here. Everyone used to keep their PM boxes a welcome tool for private lessons. I do that now. I will help anyone with anything, and because Im self taught(sorry that is taboo amongst the critiquers, one reason I dont critique) if I can not help the person, I will find them the info they need. Im willing to share what I have learned. 
I take the pictures the way I want to, and it is the way I see the image. I dont want to take pictures like Joe Blow(he is still here aint he). If my greens are off in a shot, let me know cause my eyesite is bad, but dont try to change my photo to look like someone elses. Half the people critiquing here, dont even post pics. Some are still eating Sugar Pops, and watching cartoons. If I really want help with a photo, I will go to somebody I can trust for an answer...Like Hertzy, JonMikal, or Arch, or Woodsac.(sorry did not mean to single you guys out) Guys who know their sheeit.


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> Many moons ago, when TPF was new, you could post anywhere, get good honest critique, without the bull headed attitude. Trust me man, 90% of the stuff I learned was from the old(not age) members here. Everyone used to keep their PM boxes a welcome tool for private lessons. I do that now. I will help anyone with anything, and because Im self taught(sorry that is taboo amongst the critiquers, one reason I dont critique) if I can not help the person, I will find them the info they need. Im willing to share what I have learned.
> I take the pictures the way I want to, and it is the way I see the image. I dont want to take pictures like Joe Blow(he is still here aint he). If my greens are off in a shot, let me know cause my eyesite is bad, but dont try to change my photo to look like someone elses. Half the people critiquing here, dont even post pics. Some are still eating Sugar Pops, and watching cartoons. If I really want help with a photo, I will go to somebody I can trust for an answer...Like Hertzy, JonMikal, or Arch, or Woodsac.(sorry did not mean to single you guys out) Guys who know their sheeit.



Them and a few others.  I learned my lesson on critique- I'll live with my crimes forever.  I've learned a lot more by keeping my mouth shut and paying attention. AND posting.

But all you said is my point.  It's just the wave.  Hang and wait for the next set.

:thumbup:


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## LaFoto (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller, don't listen to some who say you need to be a professional in order to pass a GOOD critique. This may well be the case when you go read Photography in Uni to later in life make a living out of it.

Most here just share a passion, though.
And this forum exist for the sole reason that people can meet internationally (unthinkable when I was a teenager and young adult, to so easily meet people ALL OVER THE WORLD just to share a common interst!, so we should be all thankful to the medium we may use here!) and exchange their views. 

And I still understand abraxas's initial question as one that wants to know how critique can be made successful *here*, on this very forum, so that the entire forum atmosphere is not put into danger any time anyone dares to say "this photo has flaws". 

Your photos don't have flaws, Chiller!
So continue to happily post them all over the place. You are so good a photographer, you won't hear such words. And if someone says "Ugh, what a subject, all dark and sinister", you can chuckle and think "Right-o, just what I wanted!" Where's your problem. And why say "OK, I only post to 'Just for Fun' from now on"? Why? I don't really understand. There's a lot of "just sharing" going on in the other galleries, too. Where is all the constant negative critiquing, I wonder? I don't see it.

But I do think that this forum actually needs the amateur "critics", those that, albeit self-taught, feel they can say something (useful, helpful) about someone else's photo, for if those weren't here, 98% of all threads would get 0 replies and that would be it. What would be the use of showing one's photos around, if they pass hands by a silent crowd and would get back to you uncommented by anyone? What would that feel like to you? 

What is visual art but sharing one's own view of the world WITH the world? Who wants to share something and NOT get anything back, not even a nod? 0 replies would mean "not even a nod". Do we really want that???


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Them and a few others. I learned my lesson on critique- I'll live with my crimes forever. I've learned a lot more by keeping my mouth shut and paying attention. AND posting.
> 
> But all you said is my point. It's just the wave. Hang and wait for the next set.
> 
> :thumbup:


 
Your right  too....there have been some crazy waves here, and Im sure terri, Big M, and some of the other 03ers can share some stories.  Another passing fad in our lives that will take us to a new journey. (damn, that was deep.  Might have to keep that for a song. ):lmao:


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> Some are still eating Sugar Pops, and watching cartoons. If I really want help with a photo, I will go to somebody I can trust for an answer...Like Hertzy, JonMikal, or Arch, or Woodsac.(sorry did not mean to single you guys out) Guys who know their sheeit.


 
I must say (and this might be a generation thing or just me) I have never really approached anyone on any forum to directly ask for crits to me work - I just (for what ever reason, its too late for me to put it into words) don't consider it proper to pester someone and force them to look at my work and say "how did I do". I just prefer to post and see if anyone will comment; and I don't think I am alone.
I know that there are many here who don't like to crite peoples posts out in public for what ever reason and I respect that, but I would urge them - as a kindness - to look out for those budding photographers who are trying their best to learn and occasionaly drop them a line of comments (either in public or pm) - it just seems to me that that is sort of the way the pms should go.

And as for that comment - what is wrong with cocopops and anime?


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> ... I have never really approached anyone on any forum to directly ask for crits to me work - I just (for what ever reason, its too late for me to put it into words) don't consider it proper to pester someone and force them to look at my work and say "how did I do". I just prefer to post and see if anyone will comment; and I don't think I am alone.
> 
> I know that there are many here who don't like to crite peoples posts out in public for what ever reason and I respect that, but I would urge them - as a kindness - to look out for those budding photographers who are trying their best to learn and occasionaly drop them a line of comments (either in public or pm) - it just seems to me that that is sort of the way the pms should go.
> 
> ...



A couple hints here;

If you want some type of critique, say so in your post --C&C requested.

If you read the notation C&C appreciated, in someone's post then do your thing. If not, be respectful, DO NOT ASSUME the photo is there to have your way with. 

If C&C is NOT requested and you like it, say so- maybe why. If C&C is not requested and it 'SUCKS', then don't comment. Find it in your heart to say something encouraging to them or go find some one looking for C&C.

If you post and nobody says anything and you want comments, bump the post. If you want someone's opinion in particular, then PM them.

OR learn to be your own critic and advance your art. Post because you like to.


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

I can say I do to most of that Abraxas already 
though thanks for the advice.
The only bit I don't tend to follow is this:

"If not, be respectful, DO NOT ASSUME the photo is there to have your way with."

I tend to not do this unless the photo is in the
"Just for Fun section" as the other section I see (and have done since I came here) as specific areas where people post work to both show it and also get the views of others on - both in likes and in crits.
I think the only ones that might take issue with this (and this is only from reading around these crit threads) are those older members who see the jsut for fun section as an area for "Failed" shots or for those that are not what they consider "good". I don't agree with that view, I see it not as a bloopers and pets thread but as a free one to show works where you are happy and confidant enough not to want the crit advice of others.
That is how I am seeing the setup of this forum - I hope I am right


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> I can say I do to most of that Abraxas already
> though thanks for the advice.
> The only bit I don't tend to follow is this:
> 
> ...



Then one of us is not understanding. 

You "HOPE" you are right?


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

** a better thought out wording of my view**

If the OP just posts some photos in a list and nothing else or posts, talks and at no point specifically requests to NOT get any crits on the photos and they are in one of the general galleries all I can take as a refrence to comment is the description of that section
e.g. for wildlife its:

"For all your outdoor shots, which may include your encounters with wildlife. Post for discussion and feedback, including general critique."

so to crit is part of that section, if they post there and don't want it they have to tell me that.


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> ** a better thought out wording of my view**
> 
> If the OP just posts some photos in a list and nothing else or posts, talks and at no point specifically requests to NOT get any crits on the photos and they are in one of the general galleries all I can take as a refrence to comment is the description of that section
> e.g. for wildlife its:
> ...



Ok. Little words. WITF are you?


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Ok. Little words. WITF are you?


 
eh? never come across WITF before - what does it mean?


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> I must say (and this might be a generation thing or just me) I have never really approached anyone on any forum to directly ask for crits to me work - I just (for what ever reason, its too late for me to put it into words) don't consider it proper to pester someone and force them to look at my work and say "how did I do". I just prefer to post and see if anyone will comment; and I don't think I am alone.
> I know that there are many here who don't like to crite peoples posts out in public for what ever reason and I respect that, but I would urge them - as a kindness - to look out for those budding photographers who are trying their best to learn and occasionaly drop them a line of comments (either in public or pm) - it just seems to me that that is sort of the way the pms should go.
> 
> And as for that comment - what is wrong with cocopops and anime?


 

 Right now, I have been talking to a few members through PM, one is here and two are on another forum.  It is not really techy talk but one wanted to know how I achieved a certain photo, one was curious as to how I did my IR shots, and another is brand new to photography, and was asking questions like...how do you know when to use what shutter speed and blah blah.  I have no problem answering them, but they are all , I guess you could say embarassed to ask on the forums.  Maybe it is a generation thing, I dont know.  I dont even know their ages. 
 But I know a lot of members, especially the ones I have known for years on here, dont have that problem helping others.  

  And.....oh man...see?  Ya got it all wrong. It is not anime.:lmao::lmao:  That is new school schtuff.   Cartoons are old school.   And personally, Im a Frosted Flakes guy.   We eat that in the crypt all the time. :lmao:


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Overread said:


> eh? never come across WITF before - what does it mean?



Oh please.


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> Right now, .... :lmao:



I think it'll all be okie-dokie someday soon.


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I think it'll all be okie-dokie someday soon.


Ya think? Im on ...6 other forums.   I go there for my peace of mind, and here ....I dont know why yet.


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Oh please.


 

its 2am and the person on the other side of the world is confusing the poor country boy 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WITF-TV
??????
wrong side of the Atlantic I think


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## abraxas (Jun 21, 2008)

Chiller said:


> Ya think? Im on ...6 other forums.   I go there for my peace of mind, and here ....I dont know why yet.



I know, I probably have no right to say that.  After all, *WITF am I?*  I'm thinking of a desert analogy right now.  Here we have rats. Lots and lots of rats.  We'll always have rats.  That's the nature of the place. Rats everywhere.  But sometimes those rats aren't so many or such a bother.  

Probably a rotten analogy, but I've only seen a couple rats today.


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## Chiller (Jun 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I know, I probably have no right to say that. After all, *WITF am I?* I'm thinking of a desert analogy right now. Here we have rats. Lots and lots of rats. We'll always have rats. That's the nature of the place. Rats everywhere. But sometimes those rats aren't so many or such a bother.
> 
> Probably a rotten analogy, but I've only seen a couple rats today.


 
Ya need a lot o traps bro.


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## Fox Paw (Jun 23, 2008)

Glad I read this.  I didn't know the unwritten rules here.  All forums have them.  

I want all the criticism I can get.  "That's nice" is truly good to hear but I can get that from friends and family, and it won't help me improve.  Criticisms could make me better.  I have a thick skin.  The occasional unconstructive critics don't bother me.  I've played music for audiences for years.  You learn that you'll get reactions from all kinds.  You can't get upset when someone doesn't like your work.

I don't think any credentials are needed for offering criticism.  Someone doesn't have to be able to write a song to tell me that a song I wrote isn't very good.  Most of you folks are much, much better photographers than I am, but I have eyes.  Since I've been checking this place out, I've seen a number of photos by terrific talents where I felt like posting "_please_ get rid of the processed color and give me some _real_ colors," but I shut up.  Having read this thread, I'll keep shutting up.

Don't mean to sound critical.  This is a good place with a lot of good people.


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## bblaine (Jun 23, 2008)

Alpha said:


> A critique happens when a critic and a photographer love each other very much.
> 
> It should be done when the mood is right and both parties are receptive. Sometimes it's very sweet and loving and sometimes it's rough.
> 
> ...


 


i am so in the mood to go critique something now.


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## abraxas (Jun 23, 2008)

Fox Paw said:


> Glad I read this.  I didn't know the unwritten rules here.  All forums have them.
> 
> I want all the criticism I can get.  "That's nice" is truly good to hear but I can get that from friends and family, and it won't help me improve.  Criticisms could make me better.  I have a thick skin.  The occasional unconstructive critics don't bother me.  I've played music for audiences for years.  You learn that you'll get reactions from all kinds.  You can't get upset when someone doesn't like your work.
> 
> ...



See, now your choices are good for you- and by requesting that you'll probably have a good chance of getting the criticism you're looking for.

Not everyone is like that though, and it's not fair to assume that blunt and subjectively 'honest' is not intrusive or rude.  There are a lot of variations and variations of variations.

For example:

Empirical - Professionals / Amatuers
Rhetorical - Landscapes / Objects / Portraits / Nudes
Aesthetic - Realism / Pictorialism

Photographers can fall into one, some, or even all of these classifications to different degrees.  

To assume that what you believe to be the best for you is also the best for everyone, despite however aggressive and intrusive, I believe is improper, as well as inviting to those with various levels of emotional disorder to vent on someone undeserving.

A little more on point-
- Someone doesn't care for "processed color." 
- Someone doesn't care for "unprocessed color."   

To me, I see no sense in saying anything unless I like what I see. It's their vision, not mine.

Criticism can be helpful, if asked for specifically, and only to a point.  After that I believe it's more about some weird type of psychological need that isn't being fullfilled, a dysfunction.  More so with those who appear to drool over the opportunity to aggressively criticise without request.


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## Senor Hound (Jun 24, 2008)

Okay, I'm a newbie, and have some trollish qualities to the eyes of some, but I will post here nonetheless.

There was another person in another thread that said it well.  He said that you don't have to be a great photographer to be a great critic, which I agree with.  To give the type of C&C people want on here MOST of the time, you should have an understanding of exposure, composition, etc.  But on a more primary level of critique, its not necessary.  And you should be able to tell someone how you feel about their photo without having to prove that you're worthy to post C&C.  If the OP is concerned with getting bad advice, IMO it is his or her responsibility to do determine the level of thought each criticism should be given.  

This is an internet forum, people.  If you want a professional atmosphere, go take a class or subscribe to a "professionals only" forum.  I'm sure there's one on the internet somewhere.  I'll admit that when I first started posting here, I was saying some dumb stuff.  Since then, I have learned not to say anything other than what I'm confident in saying, and always put a disclaimer of my experience level on every C&C post.

Also, I was amazed to find people getting upset at me not posting enough of my own photos.  This floored me.  I figured giving advice to be somewhat selfless and nice to do, but it seems some on here would rather see people post photos and not give critique to others than vice-versa.  I felt somewhat narcissistic posting my own photos on here at first, but I found this to be the opposite, as it leaves you vulnerable to critical statements.

Anyway, I like the idea someone else had about putting something out beside our "ok to edit photo" statement is, that simply says if you view this forum's primary motive as a serious venture to improve your skill, or a fun forum that will hopefully teach you some things.  That a way, the critique you get will be more tailored to your personality.

Also, the problems this forum has are not just internet based.  I've found trolls in all walks of life.  My friend, although I love him to death is one, where he always downplays your story and has a better one.  Its a personality trait, and how much I hate to say it, we have to live with these sorts of people.  I for one may be a troll, but I try to admit my flaws at least, so no one can accuse me of trying to act better than others.


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## Emerana (Jun 24, 2008)

I am struggling getting you here abrax.  Are you sensitive and C&C hurts your feelings and your fragile ego cant take it or are you just so outraged that lesser beings would have the audacity to crit you that you would like to make sure they know the error of their ways and never lay eyes on your amazing, out of this world, cant be improved work.

Try being strait about this for once


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## abraxas (Jun 24, 2008)

Emerana said:


> I am struggling getting you here abrax.  Are you sensitive and C&C hurts your feelings and your fragile ego cant take it or are you just so outraged that lesser beings would have the audacity to crit you that you would like to make sure they know the error of their ways and never lay eyes on your amazing, out of this world, cant be improved work.
> 
> Try being strait about this for once



Drop your snippy little attitude, ask real nice and respectful, and we'll discuss it.


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## Antarctican (Jun 24, 2008)

Emerana said:


> I am struggling getting you here abrax.  Are you sensitive and C&C hurts your feelings and your fragile ego cant take it or are you just so outraged that lesser beings would have the audacity to crit you that you would like to make sure they know the error of their ways and never lay eyes on your amazing, out of this world, cant be improved work.
> 
> Try being strait about this for once


Emerana, IMO you are exhibiting troll-like behaviour with the aggressive wording of your post. Sounds like you're trying to pick a fight.  That's not how we do things on this forum.


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## Emerana (Jun 24, 2008)

Alright, Abraxas, why is this topic so important to you as an individual?


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## Emerana (Jun 24, 2008)

Antarctican said:


> Emerana, IMO you are exhibiting troll-like behaviour with the aggressive wording of your post. Sounds like you're trying to pick a fight.  That's not how we do things on this forum.



Lets not call names now :hugs:  Perhaps my wording was blunt but not harm meant.


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## abraxas (Jun 24, 2008)

Emerana said:


> Alright, Abraxas, why is this topic so important to you as an individual?



I think it is important to understand criticism's relationship to art and the process of creative thought.


-


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## Emerana (Jun 24, 2008)

But, forgive me if I am wrong, why is it so important to you specifically?  You seem very concerned about this topic.  For me if I dont like or agree with a review given, I ignore it and move on.  If you dont like a review given to you, you ask the person to put you on their ignore and never again look at another one of your posts.  And then you have started several threads about this topic.  So it seems like it means more to you then most people and I am wondering why.  You aren't required to answer this question, but I am very curious.


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## abraxas (Jun 24, 2008)

-


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## terri (Jun 24, 2008)

abraxas said:


> *Let's discuss you specifically*. Why does it bother you that I may not be interested considering your injected opinion?


How about you quit throwing down the gauntlet with members who disagree with your approach - and give this entire subject a rest for awhile?

Edit:  And I don't give a damn if you appreciate my "injected opinion" or not.   You seem more than willing to inject yours all over this forum.    When you start zeroing in on members in this fashion, you have two options: the Ignore list or PM.


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## Hertz van Rental (Jun 24, 2008)

Mike_E said:


> Just to stir the coals, If one extrapolated Hertz's logic then one could assume that his insistence in believing that a formal education being the only real way to learn illustrates a need to justify his time spent in corporate education.



That comment shows you do not understand the difference between learning and education, Corinna. :mrgreen:

I have never insisted that a formal education is the _only_ way to learn, but it is an essential _part_ of the total learning process.
The majority of people in the West go to school - which is formal education.
We learn to read at school.
We learn to write at school.
We learn to do maths at school.
We learn a lot of things in formal education.
We do not stop learning once we leave school but what we learn at school gives us a solid base upon which to build.
I include being educated at home as part of formal education. There is still a tutor/pupil set-up even though it is in an informal environment.
It is very difficult (though not totally impossible) to teach yourself to read and write and the rest. But the learning process is much slower and you would tend to make more mistakes.
The same applies to Photography (as it does to any subject). A degree of formal education gives you a solid foundation upon which to build and develop and speeds up the learning process. Your education will also tend to cover a much broader field.
So to throw the ball back at you, if you think that a formal education is of no importance why do we have an Education system at all? And why did you send your children to school?


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## Chiller (Jun 24, 2008)

I just had a photo of me taken in my new suit for the wedding, but had to get rid of it, cause the horizon was crooked. :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## LaFoto (Jun 24, 2008)

Hertz van Rental said:


> ..., Corinna. :mrgreen:



? :scratch:

(Don't I see that Mike_E's being quoted?)


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## kellylindseyphotography (Jun 24, 2008)

terri said:


> How about you quit throwing down the gauntlet with members who disagree with your approach - and give this entire subject a rest for awhile?
> 
> Edit:  And I don't give a damn if you appreciate my "injected opinion" or not.   You seem more than willing to inject yours all over this forum.    When you start zeroing in on members in this fashion, you have two options: the Ignore list or PM.




:hail::hail:


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## kundalini (Jun 24, 2008)

There seems (to me) that there is a fairly consistant theme in all these Crit Threads of late. The onus of when and how to critique is on the OP of the thread.



> The aim of a crit should be to help the photographer improve.
> If this is to happen then the photographer first has to try to explain what he/she was trying to achieve*.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Some education or learning or schooling or mentoring or whatever term sets well with you, should be afforded to the posters in equal measure. If we really want to learn and hone of skills, we first have to learn how to ask the right questions to resolve our challenges in getting a good photograph.

This is where the valuable knowledge of experienced photographers will reap the greatest benefit... to the ones that are earnest about refining their skillset.

I may be way off base here, but I set up a little experiment. Let me preface this with I believe my skills are mediocre at best, but are far better than they were. So anyway, I started a thread *Technical Assistance and Critique Please*. I deliberately selected a photo taken when I had my camera only a few short weeks and the first outing with a new lens. At the time, I didn't know why it looked funny, but it did to me.

I had a few responses and they addressed my questions close enough. I then went back to reshoot within the parameters of their suggestions. I then submitted the reshoot photo in the same thread and asked for anybody else to chime in if wanted. I then PMd the first responders and ask that they have another look to see if I was able to achieve their suggestions.

I see nothing wrong with this tact. I just still believe that the posters, if wanting help, need to ask properly.

My 2¢ worth.


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## RockDawg (Jun 24, 2008)

The funny thing is that it seems to be some of the "veterans" around here who seem to have the most problems with critique. I don't understand why giving critique on any photo not in the "just for fun" forum would be considered wrong. If it's a serious photo at all and not just a snapshot of a speical moment then why would the photographer NOT want any potential criticism? The only reason I can think of is that they feel they are above it and don't need to be subjected to it. Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work. To me, that means they want ooohs and aaahs from admirers, but no criticism or suggestions from those with a different view. They want to preach to the choir so to speak. If that's the case, then isn't that what sites like Flickr or Photobucket are for?

I can totally see having a forum where people post photos that aren't to be critiqued, but it would seem that already exists here. How is that not enough? Is it because some posters don't want their "quality" work scattered among some out of focus snapshot of someone's cat playing with a ball? Does that somehow lessen your work? And if it is indeed your "work" than it should be out there to be viewed and judged by all. 

Anyways this all just my opinion and I'm just a newb in the world of photgraphy, but I just hope people are, above all, HONEST when they respond to any photos I post. Positive or negative!


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## Senor Hound (Jun 24, 2008)

Why can't critiquing photos be fun?  Why can't someone tell you what works and what doesn't in a fun, friendly, and positive way?  I can't think of any reason these two can't go together other than stubbornness by the person giving the critique.  They say statements like, "I shouldn't have to sugar-coat things!"  Well, there's a big difference between sugar-coating and being nice.  Most people on here who say something "like it is," are just using that as an excuse to be rude to others.  It probably makes them feel better, cause they can't get away with it in real life, talking like that to their coworker/spouse/boss.  In reality, they're probably miserable with their life and use this place to vent.


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## bblaine (Jun 24, 2008)

Chiller said:


> I just had a photo of me taken in my new suit for the wedding, but had to get rid of it, cause the horizon was crooked. :lmao::lmao::lmao:


 

haha!


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## Alpha (Jun 25, 2008)

Senor Hound said:


> Why can't critiquing photos be fun?  Why can't someone tell you what works and what doesn't in a fun, friendly, and positive way?



It's just a matter of positive caveats. Otherwise, how fun can it be to hear that you ****ed up? Sometimes really badly.


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## LynziMarie (Jun 25, 2008)

I agree with the being nice part.... 
it's much easier to hear criticism and to actually use it if the person isn't insulting you.  
Instead of "Wow, that sucks"
using "that's not the best, but if you do...."  I'm pretty sure it'll be more beneficial to the person so they can make a change.  When criticism is harsh and too "like it is" I often just ignore it... if I wanted people to be rude to me I'd go back to high school.
hehe

good points.


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## JHF Photography (Jun 25, 2008)

Overread said:


> I think the only ones that might take issue with this (and this is only from reading around these crit threads) are those older members who see the jsut for fun section as an area for "Failed" shots or for those that are not what they consider "good". I don't agree with that view, I see it not as a bloopers and pets thread but as a free one to show works where you are happy and confidant enough not to want the crit advice of others.
> That is how I am seeing the setup of this forum - I hope I am right


 


RockDawg said:


> The funny thing is that it seems to be some of the "veterans" around here who seem to have the most problems with critique. I don't understand why giving critique on any photo not in the "just for fun" forum would be considered wrong. If it's a serious photo at all and not just a snapshot of a speical moment then why would the photographer NOT want any potential criticism? The only reason I can think of is that they feel they are above it and don't need to be subjected to it. Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work. To me, that means they want ooohs and aaahs from admirers, but no criticism or suggestions from those with a different view. They want to preach to the choir so to speak. If that's the case, then isn't that what sites like Flickr or Photobucket are for?
> 
> I can totally see having a forum where people post photos that aren't to be critiqued, but it would seem that already exists here. How is that not enough? Is it because some posters don't want their "quality" work scattered among some out of focus snapshot of someone's cat playing with a ball? Does that somehow lessen your work? And if it is indeed your "work" than it should be out there to be viewed and judged by all.
> 
> Anyways this all just my opinion and I'm just a newb in the world of photgraphy, but I just hope people are, above all, HONEST when they respond to any photos I post. Positive or negative!


 
I wasn't going to step into this discussion at all, but I felt that these comments needed to be addressed. Perhaps this will shed some light on why "the newbs" don't understand the "problems" the "older members" are having.

I think the main issue with the differing view points on this has everything to do with the fact that you are new. At one point in time there was a specific forum for "Critique" (can't remember if that was the exact name), and a lot of people used the "subject" galleries as just that, galleries. Generally the comments and suggestions were kept light and friendly, and if somebody wanted their photo given the once over, it was posted in the critique forum. The "Just for Fun" section (which used to be called "Snapshots and Bloopers") was for pics that went the name. It wasn't a place for serious pictures that people just wanted to display.

So in response to "_Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work_", yes, that is the case for a large number of the "veterans" here. There is a reason that they are "_the only ones that might take issue with this (and this is only from reading around these crit threads)....who see the jsut for fun section as an area for "Failed" shots or for those that are not what they consider "good"._"


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