# Stacking rail



## davholla

I have a Canon MPE65 mm lens and a Canon 550 D and 7D MK II (I use it with both of them).
I would like to get some type of automatic focus rail.  I know there is stackshot, any other ideas?  Or any good manual ones.
I want to use for when I find still insects like moths, particularly macro moths etc.  I doubt I will ever find a still enough springtail but you never know.


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## petrochemist

Have a look at Macro Sliders, stages, rails and other z axis movement equipment for extreme macro photography
where Johan reviews a range of options


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## kalgra

I can't advise on any others but I love my stackshot. It's built really well and easy to use.


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> I can't advise on any others but I love my stackshot. It's built really well and easy to use.


Is it portable?  What have you taken with it?


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## kalgra

davholla said:


> kalgra said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't advise on any others but I love my stackshot. It's built really well and easy to use.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it portable?  What have you taken with it?
Click to expand...


I guess it depends on what you consider portable. I bought a Pelican type of case for mine to hold the rail the controller, cables, and all my mounting and tripod accessories. Id have to measure to be sure but I think the case I used was about 14"x 18" and was overkill. So yes it is somewhat portable. Obviously it requires power and is a precision machine so its not really intended for outdoor use. Although you probably would be fine to use it outside with an extension cord in fair weather conditions. I plan on taking mine to the lab of an entomologist this winter to do some cool stuff for a local children museum.

I haven't used it for a boatload of pictures yet maybe just a half dozen or so, but it is very easy to use and some of the stacking software thats out there like Zerene which I use has add ons that will communicate directly with the stackshot contoller making it even easier to use. I only just got mine 2 or 3 months ago and plan on using it much more this winter when I won't be hiking as much. Here are a few examples. Some if the issues in these images are the fault of the photographer  and should not reflect on the capabilities of this machine.

If you are looking to stack really really small stuff I just don't thinkI would go any other way. The high resolution mode lets you drop to increments so small you could never accomplish the same with a manual rail where the simple act of touching the adjustment knob would ruin the stack.




Wasp 14 stack black by Kristian Algra, on Flickr




20160823-Ant 11 Stack1-Edit by Kristian Algra, on Flickr




Jumper 12 stack by Kristian Algra, on Flickr


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## Overread

Novoflex make some very high end (or at least high price) rails (manual) that might be a cut above others. Myself I like the cheap ebay/Adorama focusing rails with my MPE - they might not be outstanding nor expensive; but they work well.

Velbon has a rail setup that might also be worth looking at. 

For motorized I think there's one or two others but the Stackshot is probably the best you're going to get for features and control and certainly the most popular in general.


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## kalgra

On a side note i have one of the cheap $50 rails I got from Amazon. I think its branded as kiwi but I think its just a rebadged version similar to what Adorama and others supply. It works well. Some of my best stacks were done with this cheap manual rail. The main issue I run into with the manual rail mostly applies to steep angles where the camera and lens weight make fine adjustment difficult and require me to apply a lot of extra torque on the lock screw to keep the rail from sliding down due to the weight of the camera. Having to apply a lot of torque to the lock screw each time it is loosened and retightened between shots can result in a lot of extra movement and has resulted is some alignment issues. For small bugs and stuff this hasn't been a huge issue for me but if I'm not mistaken you are doing really small stuff right? In that case I think this could be an issue.


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## davholla

Overread said:


> Velbon has a rail setup that might also be worth looking at.


It does look quite good
I was thinking about Velbon is the Adorama one that you meant?
Adorama Macro Focusing Rail Set, 4-Way Rail  | eBay

Or maybe the Novoflex
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002SW...TF8&colid=3NQ6PPBFIQ48Z&coliid=I39PA9QAJJ58PG


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> On a side note i have one of the cheap $50 rails I got from Amazon. I think its branded as kiwi but I think its just a rebadged version similar to what Adorama and others supply. It works well. Some of my best stacks were done with this cheap manual rail. The main issue I run into with the manual rail mostly applies to steep angles where the camera and lens weight make fine adjustment difficult and require me to apply a lot of extra torque on the lock screw to keep the rail from sliding down due to the weight of the camera. Having to apply a lot of torque to the lock screw each time it is loosened and retightened between shots can result in a lot of extra movement and has resulted is some alignment issues. For small bugs and stuff this hasn't been a huge issue for me but if I'm not mistaken you are doing really small stuff right? In that case I think this could be an issue.


Your sure shot photos look amazing.  However a) the price and b) the portablility (I would like to take it in on a plane with me, with lots of other things)
Is this the Kiwi one you have got?
KIWI 4 Way Macro Focusing Rail Slider Set For Photography Nikon Canon SLR Camera  | eBay


I like taking photos of all arthropods from giant stick insects to miniscule mites, so I would like to take some small photos with it.


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## davholla

I should have said although I would love to take photos like kalgra, any solution must be portable enough to go on a plane and then a bus to a cloud forest in Colombia, I would love take a stack of this for example




IMG_8472grasshopper by davholla2002, on Flickr


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## kalgra

davholla said:


> kalgra said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note i have one of the cheap $50 rails I got from Amazon. I think its branded as kiwi but I think its just a rebadged version similar to what Adorama and others supply. It works well. Some of my best stacks were done with this cheap manual rail. The main issue I run into with the manual rail mostly applies to steep angles where the camera and lens weight make fine adjustment difficult and require me to apply a lot of extra torque on the lock screw to keep the rail from sliding down due to the weight of the camera. Having to apply a lot of torque to the lock screw each time it is loosened and retightened between shots can result in a lot of extra movement and has resulted is some alignment issues. For small bugs and stuff this hasn't been a huge issue for me but if I'm not mistaken you are doing really small stuff right? In that case I think this could be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Your sure shot photos look amazing.  However a) the price and b) the portablility (I would like to take it in on a plane with me, with lots of other things)
> Is this the Kiwi one you have got?
> KIWI 4 Way Macro Focusing Rail Slider Set For Photography Nikon Canon SLR Camera  | eBay
> 
> 
> I like taking photos of all arthropods from giant stick insects to miniscule mites, so I would like to take some small photos with it.
Click to expand...


Yep that's it!


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> Yep that's it!


Interesting, what is the smallest that you have photographed?


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## Overread

Kiwi - Adorama etc.... those rails shown above are the kind I use (and call "cheap ebay" kind) and do work well. 

Novoflex might be better and for the price I'd expect them to take a heavier setup; but in truth I've not used them. If  I had budget I would probably get a set even just to try out.


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## kalgra

davholla said:


> kalgra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep that's it!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, what is the smallest that you have photographed?
Click to expand...


Ummm I think this one is probably the smallest with the kiwi. I think this fly's head was about 2.5mm across. I dont recall how many shots made this one up. I want to say 8-12 but just dont recall.




20160719-flystack07192016.5 by Kristian Algra, on Flickr



Overread said:


> Kiwi - Adorama etc.... those rails shown above are the kind I use (and call "cheap ebay" kind) and do work well.
> 
> Novoflex might be better and for the price I'd expect them to take a heavier setup; but in truth I've not used them. If  I had budget I would probably get a set even just to try out.



I have read very good things about the Novoflex and do suspect it would handle the weight better as well. Another thing about the kiwi is the teeth on the gear system are exposed and and has a sticky lubricant on them that is easy to get on your hands and then the camera or lens so you need to be careful about that. I also suspect that those exposed teeth and gears would attract a lot of dirt using it outside allot and might eventually not be as easy to adjust. Like Overread I have not used the Novoflex but based on the pictures of it online it seems like it would avoid that problem a bit better.


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## davholla

This is the one that I have but it won't connect to a tripod anymore
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005LUPHFW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and it was never very good anyway.


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## Overread

Oddly that's the same one most of us are talking about; I suspect that they pretty much all come from the same factory and just get a different brand label stuck on the front; though there might be some production variation (as with any mass produced item).


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## davholla

Overread said:


> Oddly that's the same one most of us are talking about; I suspect that they pretty much all come from the same factory and just get a different brand label stuck on the front; though there might be some production variation (as with any mass produced item).


I was worried that it might be the same - I won't get that then.


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## kalgra

Maybe try the novoflex? Its still expensive but no where near the stackshot. Buy from some place like B&H so you can return it if it doesn't fit the bill.


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## Advanced Photo

kalgra said:


> Maybe try the novoflex? Its still expensive but no where near the stackshot. Buy from some place like B&H so you can return it if it doesn't fit the bill.


I like to buy from Amazon. If you return it they pick it up at your door for free. You cant beat that.
Look for a slider that uses ball bearings and not a greased pole.


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## kalgra

Advanced Photo said:


> kalgra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe try the novoflex? Its still expensive but no where near the stackshot. Buy from some place like B&H so you can return it if it doesn't fit the bill.
> 
> 
> 
> I like to buy from Amazon. If you return it they pick it up at your door for free. You cant beat that.
> Look for a slider that uses ball bearings and not a greased pole.
Click to expand...


We are not talking about using sliders. We are talking about focus rails for macro work. Im not familiar with any focus rails that use ball bearings over geared tracks or worm drive adjustment, do you have some examples?


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## Advanced Photo




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## kalgra

That's just a DIY version of the stackshot which was already discussed and also is using a worm drive for adjustments. Ball bearings are probably used on the guide rails but this it way outside the scope of what the OP has stated he wants/needs. I think I see what you are trying to make though but I think something like the Oben linked below would be a better example of this. I am not aware of any focus stacking rails that use greased guide rails but perhaps I've just never seen them. Typically the grease is only applied to drive mechanism which is what I was referring to earlier.

Oben  MFR4-5 Macro Focusing Rail MFR4-5 B&H Photo Video


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## davholla

After seeing this
Handheld stacking
and
autumn fly

I am very tempted to do something similar, I am not sure about how to do it though

What do people think?


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## kalgra

davholla said:


> After seeing this
> Handheld stacking
> and
> autumn fly
> 
> I am very tempted to do something similar, I am not sure about how to do it though
> 
> What do people think?




That's pretty cool! I haven't seen that, might have to look into one of those myself. That's an amazing image as well!. I'm a little surprised it took 45 shots to make that up though. All I can assume is because he was using natural light instead of flash he had to open pretty wide and DOF was just paper thin. Impressive to say the least.

I think this could be a wonderful option for you. Just some thoughts of my own. Something like this is going to need a LOT of practice to get a good technique that produces consistent results.
This unit probably does make the most sense when using natural light instead of flash in order to get that many shots without spooking the subject. If you have not done so already you will really need to invest in a program like Zerene or Helicon to assemble the stack. I know it could be done in PS but these other programs (for me) make assembling a stack where you have some potential camera shake or subject movement much easier to align and blend.

I have tried a few similar types of images where I stacked 3 or 4 shots by stabilizing the camera on my opposite forearm and adjusting forward for each shot. You notice in the one of the fly that I missed a shot right in the middle and the image is soft between two sections that are nice and sharp.





20160827-2016-09-03-16.47.27 ZS retouched-Edit-3 by Kristian Algra, on Flickr




Violet Bumble 3 stack by Kristian Algra, on Flickr


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## Overread

That's a very neat device that's basically adding some mechanical assistance to the lefthand brace technique (ergo where the left hand is holding subject or bracing on the subjects surface and the camera then rests on the arm a bit). Certainly must work well to get 30 shots for a stack whilst handheld!


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## kalgra

That guy is really good! looking at the rest of his flickr page he is a true master of his craft.


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> davholla said:
> 
> 
> 
> After seeing this
> Handheld stacking
> and
> autumn fly
> 
> I am very tempted to do something similar, I am not sure about how to do it though
> 
> What do people think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty cool! I haven't seen that, might have to look into one of those myself. That's an amazing image as well!. I'm a little surprised it took 45 shots to make that up though. All I can assume is because he was using natural light instead of flash he had to open pretty wide and DOF was just paper thin. Impressive to say the least.
> 
> I think this could be a wonderful option for you. Just some thoughts of my own. Something like this is going to need a LOT of practice to get a good technique that produces consistent results.
> This unit probably does make the most sense when using natural light instead of flash in order to get that many shots without spooking the subject. If you have not done so already you will really need to invest in a program like Zerene or Helicon to assemble the stack. I know it could be done in PS but these other programs (for me) make assembling a stack where you have some potential camera shake or subject movement much easier to align and blend.
> 
> I have tried a few similar types of images where I stacked 3 or 4 shots by stabilizing the camera on my opposite forearm and adjusting forward for each shot. You notice in the one of the fly that I missed a shot right in the middle and the image is soft between two sections that are nice and sharp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20160827-2016-09-03-16.47.27 ZS retouched-Edit-3 by Kristian Algra, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violet Bumble 3 stack by Kristian Algra, on Flickr
Click to expand...


I have done a few handheld shots like that (stacked with Zerene stacker)



hoverflylarvastack2 by davholla2002, on Flickr




EF7A1334-5harvestmanstack by davholla2002, on Flickr

I am not sure how difficult it would be with practise, my main concern would be getting the rods to support it on me.


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## kalgra

When you stack are you combining Dmap with Pmap? I usually use one stack using Pmap for the fine details then do two Dmap stacks with different radius for some of the out of focus areas and fine edges. I then blend the choice parts of all three stacks.


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> When you stack are you combining Dmap with Pmap? I usually use one stack using Pmap for the fine details then do two Dmap stacks with different radius for some of the out of focus areas and fine edges. I then blend the choice parts of all three stacks.


I just do Dmap and Pmap, your method sounds better but harder, how do you blend them together in photoshop?


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## davholla

kalgra said:


> That's pretty cool! I haven't seen that, might have to look into one of those myself. That's an amazing image as well!. I'm a little surprised it took 45 shots to make that up though. All I can assume is because he was using natural light instead of flash he had to open pretty wide and DOF was just paper thin. Impressive to say the least.


I guess by using natural light he could take more photos as he did not have to worry about flash recharge also if you have 45 shots in a stack paper thin DOF is not a problem.


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