# Guns Go Bang! - C&C



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

So thought it was about time that I show my son how to respect a  firearm. Took my 12 yr old out back in the Santa Barbara Mountains and  taught him the basics on handling a firearm and of course how to shoot!  My son is activly involved with the Civil Air Patrol and aspires to work  in Law Enforcement. Here is a few pics for your viewing pleasure. Shot with 18-200mm lens and my trusty Canon 50D. Would have shot in manual, but I was all over the place so I ended up shooting in AV mode. Quick edit in PS and LR3
1.
ISO 320
40mm
f5.6
1/1250 sec


3.
ISO 200
70mm
f5.6
1/640


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

oh I'm jealous of you americans. All I can have are hunting rifles.


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> oh I'm jealous of you americans. All I can have are hunting rifles.



LOL... Dude I live in California where we have the most silly gun laws.. I got this bad boy before they banned assault rifles in California. This is my fav AR-Quince (15 in spanish)


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 14, 2011)

And I am jealous of the Canadians!  They actually realized you don't need automatic assault weapons to defend yourself or put food on the table!

You do need them if you expect to steal any quantity of petroleum from overseas however...


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

Nice pictures!  His shooting stance needs a bit of improvement though, not bad for his first time.    I took my 5-year-old daughter out last here to shoot her 1022 Ruger.  She LOVES it!  I have a few AR15 in my collection as well.  :blushing:

FYI, civilian AR15's are semi-auto guns but look just like the military version of the M16 full auto.  You cannot go to a gun store in the US and buy a full auto gun that easy.


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
Total Number of Firearm Fatalities: 29,569 / Rate: 9.94 / 100,000


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> And I am jealous of the Canadians!  They actually realized you don't need automatic assault weapons to defend yourself or put food on the table!You do need them if you expect to steal any quantity of petroleum from overseas however...


 Lol you need to read up on some stories. A guy was getting his house firebombed with molotovs. He stepped out with a pistol and shot at the ground. He got charged with illegally discharging a weapon and got 10k worth of guns taken away. The fire bombers got house arrest


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 14, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> analog.universe said:
> 
> 
> > And I am jealous of the Canadians!  They actually realized you don't need automatic assault weapons to defend yourself or put food on the table!You do need them if you expect to steal any quantity of petroleum from overseas however...
> ...



This is absurd, and obviously reflects shortcomings in the legal system.  However, no amount of automatic weapons would have improved the situation.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
> Total Number of Firearm Fatalities: 29,569 / Rate: 9.94 / 100,000




Source?


----------



## chaosrealm93 (Jun 14, 2011)

very cool


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
> ...


 how many were caused by legally owned firearms. Anyways I like number 2


----------



## gsgary (Jun 14, 2011)

He will be able to take it to school now he knows how to use it, it's crazy that joe public can own somthing like that


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



Better yet, how many were caused by legal self defense?  How many were caused by gang related shoot outs?


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Nice pictures!  His shooting stance needs a bit of improvement though, not bad for his first time.    I took my 5-year-old daughter out last here to shoot her 1022 Ruger.  She LOVES it!  I have a few AR15 in my collection as well.  :blushing:
> 
> FYI, civilian AR15's are semi-auto guns but look just like the military version of the M16 full auto.  You cannot go to a gun store in the US and buy a full auto gun that easy.



His shooting stance did improve over a series of 30 round clips. By the end of the day he was a much better shooter. I set up 5 - 5x5 inch tiles at about 80 yards and he took out 4 out of 5 with 5 rounds.


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
> ...



Injury Data and Resources - Homepage
Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Jun 14, 2011)

Congrats, and its great you're shooting with your son!


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

Well what people need to get its that guns are not bad. If I really wanted to kill someone gun or no gun it would happen.


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Vtec44 said:
> ...



Guns dont kill people, stupid lame ass people do!... Can we get back to the subject here which is C&C my pics!? LOL...


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

ryan_caldero said:


> His shooting stance did improve over a series of 30 round clips.



Magazines.... magazines!!!  :blushing:

I'm glad to see another dad putting in the time and effort to teach gun safety.


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

gsgary said:


> He will be able to take it to school now he knows how to use it, it's crazy that joe public can own somthing like that


 That's just rude. Tell us how come the crime rate in the uk spiked after guns were removed. I'm surprised a teenager let you take his photo.


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

#1 - the only part that is in focus is at the left margin - you need much more dof and less contrasty light.

The others are just snaps of child with gun


----------



## gsgary (Jun 14, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > He will be able to take it to school now he knows how to use it, it's crazy that joe public can own somthing like that
> ...



Thats news to me, and my partner works for the police


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Jun 14, 2011)

What a threadjack fest.

The pics rock.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



Unless you can separate out justifiable homicide from the data, ie legitimate self defense, the data doesn't have a lot of use other than for the Brandy Campaign to ask for more donation.

Edit:  Sorry for the thread jack... hahaha


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

gsgary said:


> He will be able to take it to school now he knows how to use it, it's crazy that joe public can own somthing like that



actually the exact opposite. My son is brought up right and knows the major differences from a video game and real life. And to top it off my rifles are always kept in a gun safe with trigger locks and NEVER any ammunition in the house. My son is loved and comes from a home where he has a mother and father. Please keep in mind that he does not come from a broken home and does not run the street all hours of the night like a parent-less child. You're ignorance is bliss! LOL...


----------



## gsgary (Jun 14, 2011)

2WheelPhoto said:


> What a threadjack fest.
> 
> The pics rock.



Sorry but no photo with a gun in it rocks for me


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> That's just rude. Tell us how come the crime rate in the uk spiked after guns were removed. I'm surprised a teenager let you take his photo.



That's a ridiculous untruth.
Read Gun politics in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and then figure it out.


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Vtec44 said:
> ...



There are too many variables to say that the data neatly divide into homicide and self defence...   The point is, automatic weapons are created with a very specific intent, and I think it's 100% crazy that anyone besides absolute top of the chain law enforcement with years of training and experience is allowed to operate one.

But it's true, enough threadjacking.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

Hoplophobia is strong in this thread.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> The point is, automatic weapons are created with a very specific intent, and I think it's 100% crazy that anyone besides absolute top of the chain law enforcement with years of training and experience is allowed to operate one.



FYI, that gun is semi-auto, one pull=one shot. Even police offices, other than SWAT officers, don't own full auto.


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Hoplophobia is strong in this thread.



 VERY ~ but it is what it is...


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> analog.universe said:
> 
> 
> > The point is, automatic weapons are created with a very specific intent, and I think it's 100% crazy that anyone besides absolute top of the chain law enforcement with years of training and experience is allowed to operate one.
> ...


----------



## camz (Jun 14, 2011)

30 round clip...must be a pre-ban!


----------



## ryan_caldero (Jun 14, 2011)

camz said:


> 30 round clip...must be a pre-ban!


I beat the ban way back! Actually you can get a post ban now with the bullet button... What type of clip you slide in after is up to you, but you will be breaking a law or two.


----------



## behanana (Jun 14, 2011)

Ryan, I will say the pics themselves don't do alot for me, but it is awsome to see that your son is learning how to handle a firearm correctly and with respect. Just keep him practicing, my first bowling pin shoot I did great, took my time, aquired my target and squeazed each shot calmly. However, my second pin shoot I was more worried about the time I was getting and missed more than I hit, needless to say I didn't do so good. I guess what I'm saying is, don't let a good first time out let him think that he is a crack shot, yet.


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 14, 2011)

ryan_caldero said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > analog.universe said:
> ...


----------



## camz (Jun 14, 2011)

ryan_caldero said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> > 30 round clip...must be a pre-ban!
> ...



Yeah I actually saw the pilot design of the bullet button release years back - Californians have to get innovative.  I don't think it's worth it to slide a 30 round clip and get in trouble for it.  Better off with a 10/30.


----------



## JWellman (Jun 14, 2011)

I was about to comment on the 'fully auto' phrases being used but someone beat me to the punch. I think when someone cannot decipher between full auto and semi-automatic their arguments usually go on mute for me.


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)

Really?!! This again?!!


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > That's just rude. Tell us how come the crime rate in the uk spiked after guns were removed. I'm surprised a teenager let you take his photo.
> ...


I DID AND it says it spiked after the gun banishment then went back down to what it used to be pre abolish. Op are you in a range. How did you get that 1st shot. In a range they wouldn't let you point a gun at yourself would they.Also good to see proper training. That's one less kid finding his dads gun and accidently shooting himself


----------



## Derrel (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
> Total Number of Firearm Fatalities: 29,569 / Rate: 9.94 / 100,000



Translation: bicycles, stairs, and ladders are all MUCH more dangerous, and are MORE likely to KILL YOU--DEAD,DEAD,DEAD than firearms in your home...

There are fact, statistics, and damned liars...all trying to paint firearms are horribly dangerous, when in FACT, you, your wife, daughter, son, or grandchildren (Lew?) are more likely to be killed by having a bicycle,
 stairs, or a ladder around the house than a firearm.


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)




----------



## Josh66 (Jun 14, 2011)

Derrel said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Total Number of Firearm Injuries: 64,389 / Rate: 21.93 / 100,000
> ...



Don't forget about the #1 killer in the US - cars.


----------



## o hey tyler (Jun 14, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



You mean cigarettes, right?


----------



## 480sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Translation: bicycles, stairs, and ladders are all MUCH more dangerous, and are MORE likely to KILL YOU--DEAD,DEAD,DEAD than firearms in your home...
> 
> There are fact, statistics, and damned liars...all trying to paint firearms are horribly dangerous, when in FACT, you, your wife, daughter, son, or grandchildren (Lew?) are more likely to be killed by having a bicycle,
> stairs, or a ladder around the house than a firearm.



So does this mean there's going to be a 3-week waiting period in order to purchase a bicycle or a ladder?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

Guns are ok, but they should be kept out of the hands of people with anger management issues.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Don't forget about the #1 killer in the US - cars.



FARS Encyclopedia


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

This is an incredibly silly argument because all of these statistics leave out the issue of incidence.
Because so few people die of rattle snake bit every year, you wouldn't consider rattle snakes as harmless.

I'm not against guns; in point of fact, in 24 years of active duty Army, I've probably fired more types of weapons that 99% of the people here. I've shot almost every small arm in the Army's arsenal from 38 pistols to helicopter mounted mini-guns and 50 calibre machine guns. I've shot t people and they've shot at me.  I know very clearly how firearms pump up testosterone and make people feel different about themselves.

If we were all well trained , psychologically and economically very stable than guns wouldn't make the impact they do. The self-defense argument is crap.  If that were so, then everyone would be buying a 12 gauge shotgun and keeping that around. No, it's the worship of the macho-ness and the death at a distance that makes firearms so dangerous in peoples' hands.


----------



## Josh66 (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget about the #1 killer in the US - cars.
> ...


Another reason statistics are so pointless...

I was using the same source that The Traveler said he got his numbers from.  According to the CDC, motor vehicles are (by a large margin) the leading cause of death.  Firearms were somewhere around 2-5% of all deaths, motor vehicles were somewhere around 60%.


----------



## o hey tyler (Jun 14, 2011)

Cigarettes anyone? 443,000 deaths annually according to the CDC.


----------



## behanana (Jun 14, 2011)

I just like shooting my 9mm, it's not the biggest, it's not the loudest, but when I've got 5 magazines loaded to the max and can just sit at the range and go to town, it's damn fun . Especially when shooting something fun like pop bottles, or cans, or other crap that pops when shot. Yeah...I'm a redneck!


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> The self-defense argument is crap.  If that were so, then everyone would be buying a 12 gauge shotgun and keeping that around.



I'd like to see you try to conceal carry a 12-gauge.  That type of gun may work for you, but not for someone else.



> No, it's the worship of the macho-ness and the death at a distance that makes firearms so dangerous in peoples' hands.



The ability for a woman to equalize her strength by safely disable a 6ft tall 250-lbs intruder at a distance without injuring herself is pretty awesome.  A gun is nothing more than a tool, like a car, ladder, knifes, and many other things.  I personally don't think I'll ever need a gun for self defense.

You don't need a gun to kill many people quickly, 2010 Chinese school attacks.


----------



## Josh66 (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > The self-defense argument is crap.  If that were so, then everyone would be buying a 12 gauge shotgun and keeping that around.
> ...



Serbu Super-Shorty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:lmao:


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > The self-defense argument is crap.  If that were so, then everyone would be buying a 12 gauge shotgun and keeping that around.
> ...



OK, one standard ugly kind of pistol and one standard shotgun - that's all we really need for self-defense.
After that it's just a different kind of masturbation.


----------



## gsgary (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...




Whats wrong with your hands thats all i have ever used or a headbut  when i was attacked by 5 youths about 6 months ago the one with the  loadest mouth got it first second got a punch and the other 3 ran off


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> This is an incredibly silly argument because all of these statistics leave out the issue of incidence.
> Because so few people die of rattle snake bit every year, you wouldn't consider rattle snakes as harmless.
> 
> I'm not against guns; in point of fact, in 24 years of active duty Army, I've probably fired more types of weapons that 99% of the people here. I've shot almost every small arm in the Army's arsenal from 38 pistols to helicopter mounted mini-guns and 50 calibre machine guns. I've shot t people and they've shot at me.  I know very clearly how firearms pump up testosterone and make people feel different about themselves.
> ...



Well said, the whole post. However, "death at a distance" is a major point in this argument. It is much harder to knife someone (physically and psychologically) than to shoot them.




O|||||||O said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > O|||||||O said:
> ...



I agree. Statistics are crap unless you know the ins and outs of every study. That said, it doesn't matter in this instance. We need cars, we don't need guns. And, frankly, the deaths in/by cars would be easy enough to reduce. Not so with the guns.




The_Traveler said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



Had to laugh at this one because, yes, to me, guns in the US are 90% d*ck extensions. My gun is longer than yours type of thing. :lmao:





behanana said:


> I just like shooting my 9mm, it's not the biggest, it's not the loudest, but when I've got 5 magazines loaded to the max and can just sit at the range and go to town, it's damn fun . Especially when shooting something fun like pop bottles, or cans, or other crap that pops when shot. Yeah...I'm a redneck!



Nicely said. I'm with you on that one. It's damn fun. And that's all.


----------



## camz (Jun 14, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Whats wrong with your hands thats all i have ever used or a headbut  when i was attacked by 5 youths about 6 months ago the one with the  loadest mouth got it first second got a punch and the other 3 ran off



That's unfortunate but good for you Gary. 

I took Krav, MMA and Muay Thai for a long time and the funny thing is that the best defense martial arts actually taught me was to stay away from situations like that, I've never had a physical altercation in long time.

I'm a collector of firearms because I appreciate its mechanical characteristics and history.  Will I use it if someone breaks in the house, probably not. I think I'll end up calling the cops first as I don't really have any bullets..lol- I only buy when I go to the range to cater for my perception of safety.

It's just unfortunate that stupid people that own guns gives anybody who practices the 2nd a taboo type of stereotype.  I honestly blame that on the loose restrictions.  I think to qualify for one, a psych evaluation has to be performed as it's just too much power to have a firearm and be given to somebody who just isn't capable.


----------



## gsgary (Jun 14, 2011)

camz said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Whats wrong with your hands thats all i have ever used or a headbut  when i was attacked by 5 youths about 6 months ago the one with the  loadest mouth got it first second got a punch and the other 3 ran off
> ...




I used to do Shotokan for 10 years it teaches you discipline, but in the early 80's i had a 12 bore for clay shooting never touched one since i got a motorbike


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> OK, one standard ugly kind of pistol and one standard shotgun - that's all we really need for self-defense.
> After that it's just a different kind of masturbation.




I prefer AR15 with frangible ammo.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Whats wrong with your hands thats all i have ever used or a headbut  when i was attacked by 5 youths about 6 months ago the one with the  loadest mouth got it first second got a punch and the other 3 ran off



A 5'3" woman may not get the same reaction.


----------



## camz (Jun 14, 2011)

gsgary said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



*bow* :thumbup:


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Had to laugh at this one because, yes, to me, guns in the US are 90% d*ck extensions. My gun is longer than yours type of thing. :lmao:



It's actually the opposite, my AR15 is shorter than yours. lol  I own guns because crazy people like the Brady Campaign.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > It's actually the opposite, my AR15 is shorter than yours. lol  I own guns because crazy people like the Brady Campaign.
> ...


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> NO, it's not. I don't have one ...



And you know how gun owners compare guns? lol



> As for crazies I'll take the Brady ones (wait, didn't you say Brandy earlier  ) over yours any time. Words won't kill me.



I probably did say Brandy... lol  I'm not your typical gun owner stereotype, old/white/rural area/Republican/religious.


----------



## Derrel (Jun 14, 2011)

Interesting that after the 2010 Chinese School attacks, "some local police authorities have distributed such instruments as steel pitchforks and pepper spray to security guards in schools." Imagine that!!! Using a weapon to defend against violence from others!!! An instinct as old as humankind...and one so many do-gooders would like to prohibit others from doing. Those who tell you that you have no right to protect yourself and your family, but instead need to depend on others to protect you have a rather odd point of view. 

It's important to keep in mind that not all of us live in the cesspool that is the Baltimore, Maryland area...


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

Thank you Derrel for another one of your wonderfully and totally loony post.

I've spent many nights in that "cesspool" without a gun and, OMG, I'm still alive. I also lived in what was the murder capital of the US (DC, remember DC? A few miles south of the cesspool) for over 20 years, walked all over the place, lived in different parts of it and had a studio in one of the *BAD* areas and... OMfG, I'm still alive.

Really, truly amazing considering I never carried anything more than my photo gear. Go polish some of your lenses


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

True believers can't be swayed by facts; they are irrelevant unless the facts can be cherry picked to support their own prejudices.  Bring up a confirmable fact that refutes a point and the true believer switches to something else.

Gun worshippers and religious zealots share the same behavior patterns.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

Since we're dealing with facts, some interesting court cases: Warren v. District of Columbia and District of Columbia v. Heller.


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Since we're dealing with facts, some interesting court cases: Warren v. District of Columbia and District of Columbia v. Heller.





The_Traveler said:


> True believers can't be swayed by facts; they are irrelevant *unless the facts can be cherry picked to support their own prejudices.* Bring up a confirmable fact that refutes a point and the true believer switches to something else.
> 
> Gun worshippers and religious zealots share the same behavior patterns.



they also can't resist trying to justify their prejudices against observable facts.


----------



## mrpink (Jun 14, 2011)

Ahhhh.... off to find a photography forum. :meh:









p!nK


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> they also can't resist trying to justify their prejudices against observable facts.



You, I, The President of the US, and the rest of the law abiding citizens in the US have to follow these laws.  These re not statistics that you can brush aside or manipulate for donations.  Case laws are case laws, like it or not you have to accept the facts.


----------



## Hardrock (Jun 14, 2011)

Get over it people! These are all opinions and no one is going to have there mind changed over an internet forum! I dont like drunk drivers so every drunk driver should never be able to drive again ,or thieves they should have to have there fingers cut off, Personally if some moron breaks in my house at night I plan on shooting him to protect my family but hey thats just me. Others would rather get robbed or rapped... Seriously Im proud to live in America where I can defend myself, but does that make me better or right? No! Its what you are accustomed to, how you were raised , and the religion you believe in that drives these feelings...

Lets move on...


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

Sometimes, just sometimes, you lot manage to surpass yourselves with childishness....

Seriously does every photo that has a gun in it warrant such childish behaviour - seriously grow up.....


----------



## camz (Jun 14, 2011)

^ The poor OP's probably scratching his head right now


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> Sometimes, just sometimes, you lot manage to surpass yourselves with childishness....
> 
> Seriously does every photo that has a gun in it warrant such childish behaviour - seriously grow up.....



You idea of what might be important might be different than mine.
Dropping in to say that my behavior, as part of this group, is childish can be construed as patronizing and even rude.
Perhaps you should go care about things that you care about - wherever that is.


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes, just sometimes, you lot manage to surpass yourselves with childishness....
> ...



Chatting about photos - photography - stuff and good music probably. 
I didn't name names, I generally don't, and its not one alone that causes these threads to break down - someone starts, then someone continues and before we know it the OP has run off and taken the photos with them. I don't see any social reason in a photography group with trying to push gun viewpoints on others in a thread that does not call for it at all. 

I fail to see where it leads save to an endless debate between groups with strong opinions who won't, on the basis of web arguments, change their viewpoint. So it serves no purpose save to derail a thread (socially that also means to snub the original author of the thread as well) and sit as a cold spot for argument and insults in the site till it gets locked.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



Get it locked!

No big loss. In case you failed to notice, the photos that started this thread were not, as is most often the case with gun/photo threads, about photo. They were snapshots about guns. Would you like to point out one single thread about gun photos where the photos were worth talking about?


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> No big loss. In case you failed to notice, the photos that started this thread were not, as is most often the case with gun/photo threads, about photo. They were snapshots about guns. Would you like to point out one single thread about gun photos where the photos were worth talking about?



The photos were gone by the time I came this party 
Also as for your last point I don't understand it - I mean you're saying that photos of guns are never worth talking about, but that is just your opinion of guns. I mean heck I don't talk about newborn photos or baby photos (as an example) and I couldn't care less if they were never posted again on this site - it wouldn't affect me. Heck I'm sure there are those that hate insects and wildlife photos and I know many are bored of most landscapes  . However I don't go into those threads and decry their posting or try and push them out of the community just because that is their subject choice.


----------



## The_Traveler (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> I don't see any social reason in a photography group with trying to push gun viewpoints on others in a thread that does not call for it at all.
> 
> I fail to see where it leads save to an endless debate between groups with strong opinions who won't, on the basis of web arguments, change their viewpoint. So it serves no purpose save to derail a thread (socially that also means to snub the original author of the thread as well) and sit as a cold spot for argument and insults in the site till it gets locked.



Let me point out that is your opinion and as long as those who participate in the exchange don't infringe the rules of site, don't get super-unpleasant and don't go out and drag people into the fray who don't want to be there, what exactly does it hurt?



Overread said:


> I didn't name names, I generally don't



I did think that this was an interesting line. It implies that you, as some arbiter of what is correct, have intervened other times in an evenhanded way in squabbles amongst the 'little folk', perhaps to set us all straight.  In this case, thank you but no, I will arbitrate my own behaviour, wending my own happy way until the mods return from their trip to outer space and tell me to behave or leave.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> Also as for your last point I don't understand it - I mean you're saying that photos of guns are never worth talking about, but that is just your opinion of guns.



No, I meant exactly what I said. Show me a gun photo worth talking about AS A PHOTO and we will talk about it. I just haven't seen one. Yet.


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)

I have to agree, most gun shots are........"look what I got" shots. Josh is the only person I can remember posting something that had extra thought to it.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> I have to agree, most gun shots are........"look what I got" shots. Josh is the only person I can remember posting something that had extra thought to it.



So very true. I saw one just recently that was quite nice...

Overread, say thanks to the flower lady!


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree, most gun shots are........"look what I got" shots. Josh is the only person I can remember posting something that had extra thought to it.
> ...



Over, no need to thank......just kiss my ass a little!!


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> I have to agree, most gun shots are........"look what I got" shots. Josh is the only person I can remember posting something that had extra thought to it.



but but that is the same argument for cars - and babies - and kids - and pets (ok in the latter groups it can also be look at the new shiny lighting gear I bought and used ). 
I just fail to see why showing off guns is anything worse than showing off anything else we happen to have - from babies to toys to lighting gear to - um interesting bugs we find under leaves 

I mean sure we can turn any subject area into art and photography as well - heck we can do both of course - nawt wrong with that


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > mishele said:
> ...


:greenpbl::greenpbl::greenpbl:


----------



## Josh66 (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > I have to agree, most gun shots are........"look what I got" shots. Josh is the only person I can remember posting something that had extra thought to it.
> ...



Yeah, I feel that way about a few subjects...  Cars are probably the biggest one.  I can't remember seeing any car pictures that were anything beyond "hey, look at this fancy car" to me.


----------



## TwoTwoLeft (Jun 14, 2011)

Dammit... Where'd the pictures go? Why does there always have to be some asshat out there who ruins the fun for the rest of us? If you don't like them, just shut your goddamn mouth and don't look at them.

I dont like maternity photos, babies or weddings but you don't see me bitching every time a thread with one of those pops up???


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 14, 2011)

cats, flowers, pregnant women, babies, and weddings, are not engineered instruments of death.  they especially are not said items in the hands of children.  if you post an automatic weapon, or semi-automatic, or whatever the experts called it, you're making a statement, and not everyone will agree.

i do actually like the idea of having a separate section for controversial threads, i've seen that work really well on other forums...  these topics will always be debated, so, if you have a place where that's expected then people don't get bent out of shape over it.


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> *cats*, flowers, pregnant women, babies, and weddings, *are not engineered instruments of death.*  they especially are not said items in the hands of children.  if you post an automatic weapon, or semi-automatic, or whatever the experts called it, you're making a statement, and not everyone will agree.



You clearly have much to learn about felines  
Still I bet if this was showing kids with historical re-enactment groups or showing off muskets or swords (proper ones) or doing archery this whole thing would not have sparked off. I still hold that its people who just want an anti (and then) pro gun debate and twist the thread to suit their own needs.


----------



## Derrel (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Thank you Derrel for another one of your wonderfully and totally loony post.
> 
> I've spent many nights in that "cesspool" without a gun and, OMG, I'm still alive. I also lived in what was the murder capital of the US (DC, remember DC? A few miles south of the cesspool) for over 20 years, walked all over the place, lived in different parts of it and had a studio in one of the *BAD* areas and... OMfG, I'm still alive.
> 
> Really, truly amazing considering I never carried anything more than my photo gear. Go polish some of your lenses



Yet another douchebag post from you, c.clownwalker...take a look here...there are only three cities in the USA with a HIGHER total rate of violent crime than Baltimore, Maryland. Aren't you allegedly living in France now clownwalker? The land of functional alcoholics and cowards? United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you lived in Baltimore before the advent of crack cocaine and methamphetamine??? Back in the good old days? Before the Russian mafia infiltrated the city's shipping industry? Before the black gangs took over the entire housing projects with drug dealing, gambling, and prostitution? How out of touch are you c.clouwa nker? One's gotta love the anecdotal story from the one,single guy (you, c.clownwalker) who claims that because he never got held up in his hometown, that the place is not a royal cesspool! Baltimore Maryland is a chit-hole...the statistics show it...your one-person point of view is unfortunately at odds with official statistics that show the place is a cesspool. Of course, to a fly, a big pile of feces is...a breeding ground for the next generation, so to you, Baltimore probably seemed like a great place, back in the day when you actually lived in the USA.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

TwoTwoLeft said:


> Dammit... Where'd the pictures go? Why does there always have to be some asshat out there who ruins the fun for the rest of us? If you don't like them, just shut your goddamn mouth and don't look at them.
> 
> I dont like maternity photos, babies or weddings but you don't see me bitching every time a thread with one of those pops up???



hahahaha.... since cars kill more people than guns annually.  I will derail threads that have cars in them!!!  



j/k of course....


----------



## bogeyguy (Jun 14, 2011)

Hmmm, not seeing anny photos here?? I'll try another thread.


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)

Car threads are another ego post...lol


----------



## TwoTwoLeft (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> Car threads are another ego post...lol



Isn't ANY photo work ANYONE posts deep down inside and ego post????? After all, this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum...


----------



## mishele (Jun 14, 2011)

lol  Yes but no.....car and gun threads always end up some sort of competition. Oh I have a bigger gun or a faster car or I live in a better country....lol


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

What about my state is better than yours?  Wait I live in CA, I'm f*cked.


----------



## Rekd (Jun 14, 2011)

Should I post up picts of my 6 year old on his first trip out shooting?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

YouTube - Mink Stole: "Sometimes I wish I had a Gun" in Baltimore


----------



## MWG (Jun 14, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> Get over it people! These are all opinions and no one is going to have there mind changed over an internet forum! I dont like drunk drivers so every drunk driver should never be able to drive again ,or thieves they should have to have there fingers cut off, Personally if some moron breaks in my house at night I plan on shooting him to protect my family but hey thats just me. Others would rather get robbed or rapped... Seriously Im proud to live in America where I can defend myself, but does that make me better or right? No! Its what you are accustomed to, how you were raised , and the religion you believe in that drives these feelings...Completely agree.Now let's drop it.Lets move on...


Agreed.Now let's drop it.


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> lol  Yes but no.....car and gun threads always end up some sort of competition. Oh I have a bigger gun or a faster car or I live in a better country....lol



Pfft you're just jealous because my macro lens is bigger than your macro lens


----------



## Josh66 (Jun 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> lol  Yes but no.....car and gun threads always end up some sort of competition. Oh I have a bigger gun or a faster car or I live in a better country....lol


Honestly, there would be no problems with the gun threads if the people who don't like them just stayed out of them.

Cars aren't particularly interesting to me (jeeps are different, lol - but pictures of jeeps I still find boring) - I usually don't even bother posting (or even opening, if the title lets you know there's cars inside) in them.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some people just insist on making sure that everybody else knows that they don't like 'it'.  All I'm saying is that it always seems to be the 'anti-gun' people who start the derailment of gun threads.  If the picture is boring, or just looks like a snapshot - who cares?  I don't understand why people can't just say to themselves 'yawn.  another gun.', then move on if it's not something you're into.


If you don't like guns, and "Guns go Bang!" wasn't a big enough hint when you see a thread - just hit the back button if you open it and see 'yet another' gun thread.  That's what I do to any car threads I accidentally open.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Honestly, there would be no problems with the gun threads if the people who don't like them just stayed out of them.



Honestly, that is not the problem. People should be able to critique an image and leave the political bullsh!t out of it. 

It would have probably gone wrong eventually, but let's look at the* first *response:



Kbarredo said:


> oh I'm jealous of you americans. All I can have are hunting rifles.



Is that a critique of the images, or Political Bait?


I don't care for guns. But I can say Bynx posted a nice focus stacked image of one.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

I shot so many bullets yesterday my hand hurts.

No really... I did.  And it does.

In the soft part between your thumb and pointer finger.

It's sore.

That little LCP doesn't play nice after a while, I'll tell ya what.

...I didn't actually read through any of the thread.  I saw an emerging "DOWN WITH GUNS!" argument happening and assumed this thread went the way of most firearm threads, with some people giving statistics as to why we should all get them taken away... people giving statistics as to why we shouldn't, a handful of people scolding the OP for even TAKING pictures of a firearm going off because it could be "dangerous"... and... people who own firearms sharing stories and generally trying to lighten the mood by ignoring the naysayers and chatting about their own collection... so I thought I'd share my own.

Am I off at all?

I'm assuming I'm off on at least ONE point... mostly because I can't even SEE the pictures....

*WHERE ARE THE PICTURES?!  I WANNA SEEEEEE!!!! *&#8203;


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Honestly, that is not the problem. People should be able to critique an image and leave the political bullsh!t out of it.
> 
> It would have probably gone wrong eventually, but let's look at the* first *response:
> 
> ...



I just see it as an opening line of interest between one person interested in guns to another who has shown interest in them by posting photos of them. Yes we can just talk about the photos and, as a photo site, that is normally our biggest point of interest. But we've always had conversations about the content of our photos in so much as sharing mutual interests.

I don't see how that quoted post is in any way a political bait unless the person reading is already wanting an excuse just to jump in and fight out the gun debate.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, there would be no problems with the gun threads if the people who don't like them just stayed out of them.
> ...



Bitter... is that?  Is that YOU this time?  ::Reads screen name again::  B-i-t-t-e-r... uh huh... J-e-w-e-l-e-r... yeah... yeah I think so... I think...


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

e.rose said:


> I shot so many bullets yesterday my hand hurts.
> 
> No really... I did.  And it does.
> 
> In the soft part between your thumb and pointer finger.



The only time I ever get to share this pain is when putting staples into wood -- and well - stapling stuff to wood just isn't as fun....

EDIT - shock news - has the like button --- vanished!??!!


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jun 14, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I've spent many nights in that "cesspool" without a gun and, OMG, I'm still alive. I also lived in what was the murder capital of the US (DC, remember DC? A few miles south of the cesspool) for over 20 years, walked all over the place, lived in different parts of it and had a studio in one of the *BAD* areas and... OMfG, I'm still alive.



Am I the only one who finds it confusing that the place in the U.S. with the most restrictive gun laws is the murder capital of the US?  You would think it would be the safest place to live, what with all the laws against owning or carrying firearms.


----------



## Overread (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > I shot so many bullets yesterday my hand hurts.
> ...



Ahh no there it is - crisis averted! Phew was worried we were going to have a major problem 
(thought it does remind me that the forum upgrade has still stolen all my previous hard-earned helpful thingies


----------



## Micah (Jun 14, 2011)

Ok, i have to chime in. Where would America be today if the colonists had pitchforks instead of muskets? I'm no militia NWO conspiracy theorist, but i want my weapons to be as effective as possible against any threat. Foriegn or domestic. That is all.....


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > 6EDIT - shock news - has the like button --- vanished!??!!
> ...



Yeah, I had over 550 thanks. Thanks were harder to earn than likes.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> (thought it does remind me that the forum upgrade has still stolen all my previous hard-earned helpful thingies



Well THAT just sucks!


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Bitter... I still need to see a bigger version of your avatar!  :lmao:


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

Overread said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, that is not the problem. People should be able to critique an image and leave the political bullsh!t out of it.
> ...


I am not claiming it was intentional bait. But it is bait. It escalated from there. I am not pointing fingers, just looking at the example. 

No CC was ever really given in this thread, was it?


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> No CC was ever really given in this thread, was it?



I can't CC what I can't... see...see... :shock:  :lmao:

I'm still trying to figure this out, because I see no images... did the OP take them down?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 14, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > No CC was ever really given in this thread, was it?
> ...



Prior to the removal of the images by the OP, Doofenshmirtz.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Whats wrong with your hands thats all i have ever used or a headbut  when i was attacked by 5 youths about 6 months ago the one with the  loadest mouth got it first second got a punch and the other 3 ran off
> ...



Nope.  That's why she has a taser and a CCW.  

And I'm 5'2"... but thanks for being generous with that extra inch!  :lmao:


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



  HAHAHAHA!  Do you watch Phineous and Ferb too?!   ...Or is that just a general term that I've never heard of before that show?


----------



## e.rose (Jun 14, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Had to laugh at this one because, yes, to me, guns in the US are 90% d*ck extensions. My gun is longer than yours type of thing. :lmao:
> ...



You sound like my husband.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 14, 2011)

Okay at least now I know I'm not the only crazy person on here...


----------



## Rekd (Jun 14, 2011)

e.rose said:


> I shot so many bullets yesterday my hand hurts.
> 
> No really... I did.  And it does.
> 
> ...



:thumbup: for getting out there and spending a day putting lead down range. 

A few things to help with that soreness in your hand: 1) start shooting left (or right) handed so you can switch off (you can also do that Matrix thing with two hands at the same time  )  2) get a variety of guns so you don't spend the whole time shooting one gun and getting sore from it and 3) find someone that reloads and pay them to make your bullets and make them light loads (so they don't kick so much, AND it will be cheaper than buying from a store.)


----------



## Netskimmer (Jun 14, 2011)

I wanted to see the pics as well but did not get here in time. Because I could not see the pics I could not offer CC on them and I did not post because I didn't want to get cought up in all the BS.

I would however like to declare that I am pro-gun. Just wanted to represent. eacesign:


----------



## Rekd (Jun 14, 2011)

Rekd said:


> Should I post up picts of my 6 year old on his first trip out shooting?









Neener! :greenpbl: :greenpbl: :greenpbl:


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 15, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...


 You seriously can't be blaming me for all this. The guy made a school shooting remark. Many of us lost friends and family in those horrible events. Blaming an innocent guy like the op as the cause was just rude. That's what started this mess. Like usual people who have never touched a gun insulting those who own them. How would you feel if cameras were banned because they allow the casing out of robbery targets. Me and you don't get along but you have made some none cc remarks yourself. Your just adding fuel.


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 15, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Guns are ok, but they should be kept out of the hands of people with anger management issues.


  Great cc there


----------



## KAikens318 (Jun 15, 2011)

I am sad that the photos aren't still up, but I can see why after all the BS on this thread. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. People who know how to handle guns, respect the power, and use them the correct way have every right to own them and use them. I am petrified of guns, would never touch or own one and would never allow my husband to have one, however people have the right to own them. Unfortunately not everyone respects them as they should and that is why people die. On the show 1000 Ways To Die a guy died because a snake wrapped itself around his trigger and when he picked up the gun after taking a piss, the snake got scared, squeeze, and the guy died. Was this because of the gun? No. It was a freak accident that just happened to be with a gun. Stingrays are dangerous as seen with the Crocodile Hunter, snakes are dangerous, hell Black Widows are super dangerous, but does that mean that they all need to be eradicated so that people don't die? Did you know that the mosquito is the most dangerous animal in the world as they are responsible for over 2,000,000 human deaths? 

Before you start spewing your opinions about stuff on these threads, take a second to think about the OP. They just want their photos critiqued, not a bashing on their recreational activities.






See? Rifle pointed right at my face...and I am still alive...


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 15, 2011)

Youre scared of guns but you let others point it at you lol.


----------



## mrpink (Jun 15, 2011)

Nothing like a little artist on artist censorship to derail a thread. I'm off to burn some books I dislike. p!nK


----------



## Stradawhovious (Jun 15, 2011)

What a great thread! I love it when all the closed minded, self righteous, holier than thou, gun-enthusiast hating, false statistic spewing, fearmongering, word twisting, truth doctoring, condescending, chest puffing, keyboard commando, hate filled asshats all congregate in one place.

It makes it easier to update the old ignore list.

Thanks folks! 

And I was just thinking to myslelf.... "Gee, self.... You haven't posted on thephotoforum.com lately......." 

And now I remember why.

To the OP.... Sorry I didn't make it in time to see the pics. Good on you for starting your kids out right.


----------



## mishele (Jun 15, 2011)

If I talk about burning Bibles can I get this thread locked?!! :lmao:


----------



## gsgary (Jun 15, 2011)

Here's someone who owned guns and knew how to use them
Cumbria killer Derrick Bird had the mentality of a suicide bomber | News & Politics | News & Comment | The First Post


----------



## Netskimmer (Jun 15, 2011)

Dammit, I promised myself I wouldn't get caught up in this...

By all means, lets get rid of the guns so no one will every be hurt by anyone ever again. 

At least without guns folks would get more creative. Why just shoot into a group of people when chucking a maltov cocktail into the mix its so much more entertaining. If you think people look funny with a bullet in them you should see them on fire! But wait there's more! We shouldn't leave out IED's. Nothin' says fun like shrapnel! 

There are plenty of cheaper,easier, and more devastating ways to to kill people other than guns.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people and they've been thinking up sick and creative ways of doing it since LONG before guns came along (try googling the Spanish pair or brass bull) and they will continue to do so if guns are taken away. Removing the guns will just make it harder for those of us who want to protect ourselves from people like Mr.Bird. If any one of those people he shot had a gun and the training to use it several lives could have been saved, possibly even Mr.Birds.


----------



## mishele (Jun 15, 2011)

Does anyone realize that you are never going to change someone's mind on this topic?


----------



## Netskimmer (Jun 15, 2011)

Yeah, but it felt good to rant a little.


----------



## gsgary (Jun 15, 2011)

mishele said:


> Does anyone realize that you are never going to change someone's mind on this topic?



But these gun people are so easy to wind up


----------



## Rekd (Jun 15, 2011)

For all you anti-gun nuts that think guns DO kill people let me ask you this: does your pencil make spelling mistakes? Or is that you making the spelling mistake?

Just sayin'. :twak:


----------



## gsgary (Jun 15, 2011)

Rekd said:


> For all you anti-gun nuts that think guns DO kill people let me ask you this: does your pencil make spelling mistakes? Or is that you making the spelling mistake?
> 
> Just sayin'. :twak:



My pensil has spill checker built in


----------



## o hey tyler (Jun 15, 2011)

mrpink said:


> Nothing like a little artist on artist censorship to derail a thread. I'm off to burn some books I dislike. p!nK



Take a dump on the American flag while you're at it.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

gsgary said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone realize that you are never going to change someone's mind on this topic?
> ...


 That's because we all hate ignorance people. LOL  I bet most of the anti gun crowd aren't  aware of the implications of the two court cases I posted earlier, and there will be more.  =)


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 15, 2011)

Its interesting to me, how for the self described "pro-gun" folks, everyone is either "pro-gun" or "anti-gun", but for most everyone else there's significant grey area...   there's also the constant return to the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" tagline, which no one has tried to discredit, but many have said that that statement misses the point.

The longer this goes on, the more it looks like argument for it's own sake.  It got silly a long time ago, and no one is saying anything new, and no one is listening, so why bother?


----------



## MissCream (Jun 15, 2011)

At least some people are preparing for a zombie apocalypse!! All I have is a large stick with a nail in the end.


----------



## camz (Jun 15, 2011)




----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Its interesting to me, how for the self described "pro-gun" folks, everyone is either "pro-gun" or "anti-gun"



Because anti civil right, anti self defense, and sexiest aren't as catchy... :blushing: :hugs:



analog.universe said:


> there's also the constant return to the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" tagline, which no one has tried to discredit, but many have said that that statement misses the point.



Please tell me when was the last time you and I saw a gun loaded itself then go and robbed a bank all on its own?


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> > Its interesting to me, how for the self described "pro-gun" folks, everyone is either "pro-gun" or "anti-gun"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> lol



Please do elaborate on the "point".... lol  I'm all ears...


----------



## thebutler4 (Jun 15, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> ryan_caldero said:
> 
> 
> > Vtec44 said:
> ...


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Okay at least now I know I'm not the only crazy person on here...



Nope.  *EVERYONE* knows **I'M** totally out of my MIND!  :lmao: 



Rekd said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > I shot so many bullets yesterday my hand hurts.
> ...



Haha thanks.  I'm actually going again today... as soon as my husband gets home with the ammo.  



Rekd said:


> [A few things to help with that soreness in your hand: 1) start shooting left (or right) handed so you can switch off (you can also do that Matrix thing with two hands at the same time  )  2) get a variety of guns so you don't spend the whole time shooting one gun and getting sore from it and 3) find someone that reloads and pay them to make your bullets and make them light loads (so they don't kick so much, AND it will be cheaper than buying from a store.)



Well the reason that I was shooting so much with the LCP is because that's the "carry" gun.  I want to practice with that and get really good with it, because if I'm ever caught in a pickle... that's what I'm going to have on me.  Otherwise we have an AR-15, and AK-47, and a Siaga (sp?) 12.    NOOOOOOOOOT really carry weapons.    We had a Springfield .45, but he traded that in for the Siaga and now wants a Glock... something or other.  I think a 9mm?

*I* want a Kahr.  I was looking at the CW9, but we went to a gun show the other week and this dude had a lightly used PM9 for $350... which is nuts, haha.  Unfortunately we didn't have the cash THAT day to get it... but we have his card... and hopefully it'll still be there when we call.  If not, I might just go back to the CW9 for now.  I've never shot one, but it *fits* my hand *perfectly*.  It's the first handgun that I've ever picked up and it felt comfortable in my hand.  I didn't have to adjust my grip a few times until I got it.  It just fell right in place.  I have tiny kindergardener hands, so it's been hard to find one that's comfortable, haha.

The LCP isn't *bad*, considering how compact it is, but even with the extended mag, my pinky finger almost hangs off.  The CW9 is not *as* small as the LCP, but it's still small enough that I could carry it.  Plus Keith said something about the fact that it has a longer barrel than the LCP will probably make it easier for me to shoot.  But that's all his thing... I dunno anything about that.  I just know how to load 'em, clean them (well LEARNING to), and shoot 'em.  



MissCream said:


> At least some people are preparing for a zombie apocalypse!! All I have is a large stick with a nail in the end.



HAHAHAHA!  A friend and I were talking about this today at work.  That's it.  That's all there is to my story but reading your comment made me giggle.  :sillysmi:


----------



## analog.universe (Jun 15, 2011)

Well, I'm not contesting the right to own guns, I totally understand the self-defense perspective, and I also understand hunting for food...   the point was that the particular gun that started this had nothing to do with either of those things.  That gun was built from the ground up to kill people.  I agree, that plenty of folks are plenty qualified to own and operate that sort of device, but none of them need it, and it's FAR TOO EMPOWERING for the folks who are not qualified, but can obtain it anyway.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a point where it stops being a tool, and starts becoming an ego booster.  In an extremely small number of cases, it allows (encourages?) crazy people to do crazy things.

Promoting self defense makes for a safe society... promoting the types of weapons shown in this thread makes for a society ripe with power struggles.  People should not feel encouraged to exert their will over others, and assault weapons are engineered for that specifically, exerting force.

So yeah, people kill people, not the guns... but some guns are for protecting people, and other guns for starting sh**, know what I'm sayin?

It's not black and white, it's not an argument anyone can win...  from my perspective though, we should be conscious of the impacts of devices, and not just assume they're all the same and all in the hands of qualified people.


----------



## vtf (Jun 15, 2011)

KAikens318 said:


> I am sad that the photos aren't still up, but I can see why after all the BS on this thread. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. People who know how to handle guns, respect the power, and use them the correct way have every right to own them and use them. I am petrified of guns, would never touch or own one and would never allow my husband to have one, however people have the right to own them. Unfortunately not everyone respects them as they should and that is why people die. On the show 1000 Ways To Die a guy died because a snake wrapped itself around his trigger and when he picked up the gun after taking a piss, the snake got scared, squeeze, and the guy died. Was this because of the gun? No. It was a freak accident that just happened to be with a gun. Stingrays are dangerous as seen with the Crocodile Hunter, snakes are dangerous, hell Black Widows are super dangerous, but does that mean that they all need to be eradicated so that people don't die? Did you know that the mosquito is the most dangerous animal in the world as they are responsible for over 2,000,000 human deaths?
> 
> Before you start spewing your opinions about stuff on these threads, take a second to think about the OP. They just want their photos critiqued, not a bashing on their recreational activities.
> 
> ...



Good thing she didn't pull the trigger. Gun safety comes with gun rights.


----------



## gsgary (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Nice pictures!  His shooting stance needs a bit of improvement though, not bad for his first time.    I took my 5-year-old daughter out last here to shoot her 1022 Ruger.  She LOVES it!  I have a few AR15 in my collection as well.  :blushing:
> 
> FYI, civilian AR15's are semi-auto guns but look just like the military version of the M16 full auto.  You cannot go to a gun store in the US and buy a full auto gun that easy.



Maybe not but the criminals will just come and steal it from your place


----------



## jwbryson1 (Jun 15, 2011)

I see the technical data, but no photos appear.  Is there something wrong with my computer?


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> I see the technical data, but no photos appear.  Is there something wrong with my computer?



Yeah, it logged you onto TPF 150 posts too late.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Well, I'm not contesting the right to own guns, I totally understand the self-defense perspective, and I also understand hunting for food...   the point was that the particular gun that started this had nothing to do with either of those things.  That gun was built from the ground up to kill people.  I agree, that plenty of folks are plenty qualified to own and operate that sort of device, but none of them need it, and it's FAR TOO EMPOWERING for the folks who are not qualified, but can obtain it anyway.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a point where it stops being a tool, and starts becoming an ego booster.  In an extremely small number of cases, it allows (encourages?) crazy people to do crazy things.
> 
> Promoting self defense makes for a safe society... promoting the types of weapons shown in this thread makes for a society ripe with power struggles.  People should not feel encouraged to exert their will over others, and assault weapons are engineered for that specifically, exerting force.
> 
> ...




I see your point, but it's flawed in many ways and I don't blame you.  The media has it wrong too, intentional or not.

1. Gun ownership is beyond hunting and self-defense.

2.  I stated previously that gun posted cosmetically looks like an M16, but it doesn't function like an M16.  It shoots the same caliber as your Ruger Mini 14, which is a ranch rifle.  

3.  All guns kill, there is no "good" gun or "bad" gun.  "Good" hunting rifles shoot much bigger and more powerful cartridges than the AR15, and can do it much farther, with better accuracy, and more deadly.

4.  Even when you ban all guns, human will find other ways to kill each other, 2010 Chinese school attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

5.  A camera is just a camera, some people use it for art and others use it for child pornography.  A computer is a computer, some people use it to kill time on the net and others use it steal your bank info.  A gun is just a gun, some people use it for self protection and others use to rob banks.  You're a good person, owning a camera, a computer, a gun won't "allow" or "encourage" you to do crazy things.  You're bad person, without a camera, a computer, a gun you still do crazy things.


----------



## camz (Jun 15, 2011)

You know I believe Misscream brings up good point on the Zombies.  I used to believe that it was a distant possibility but with all that is going on around the world, I wouldn't be surprised if we have some sort of revolution in the near future b/c of wall street, the fed, corrupt financial system, increasing debt, limited growth almost only in emerging markets, peak commodities etc etc.  Boy I tell you if this revolution hits the US...with all the guns in this country it's going to make past data look like toys r us. 

It's almost like we have to defend ourselves from our own freedom rights in case the fan hits #2.  That's what spooks me, it's not the petty one offs scenarios that happen.  I think there's a bigger monster then that..


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

camz said:


> It's almost like we have to defend ourselves from our own freedom rights in case the fan hits #2.  That's what spooks me, it's not the petty one offs scenarios that happen.  I think there's a bigger monster then that..



LA Riot and Katrina.


----------



## camz (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> > It's almost like we have to defend ourselves from our own freedom rights in case the fan hits #2.  That's what spooks me, it's not the petty one offs scenarios that happen.  I think there's a bigger monster then that..
> ...



You can have many possible black swan events that can trigger it really.

If what happened in Japan instead happened here, I don't think we'd be as orderly as they were in dealing with the situation. It would be a jungle out here...almost have to defend yourself against ourselves....lol if that makes sense


----------



## Hardrock (Jun 15, 2011)

I got to experience Katrina first hand and it was a very eary feeling. I have a friend that was being shot at as a rescue boat was trying to rescue them and fortunately there was a well trained officer there to take care of the situation. Unfortunately there are idiots everywhere better to be prepared than to be sorry, especially when the zombies come then its going to be on!:lmao:


----------



## camz (Jun 15, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> I got to experience Katrina first hand and it was a very eary feeling. I have a friend that was being shot at as a rescue boat was trying to rescue them and fortunately there was a well trained officer there to take care of the situation. Unfortunately there are idiots everywhere better to be prepared than to be sorry, especially when the zombies come then its going to be on!:lmao:



Like Gerald Celente would always say "When _people_ have nothing left to lose, they lose  it"


----------



## Rekd (Jun 15, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Well the reason that I was shooting so much with the LCP is because that's the "carry" gun.


 
A couple years ago I got the :wifie: a Barretta Tomcat 32 for Mother's Day. The barrel breaches up like a shotgun so you can load one round in the chamber and fire it without the clip in. Looks about the same size as your LCP, which is probably more comfortable than the Barretta. 

Yeah, yer hubby's prolly after a Glock 9mm. It's a great gun. Very reliable. Very simple. Very accurate, especially if you have a friend that can work it a little.



analog.universe said:


> Well, I'm not contesting the right to own guns, I totally understand the self-defense perspective, and I also understand hunting for food...



Don't forget the military aspect. A successful armed invasion of North America would be nearly impossible, even for China. Don't forget the Tyranical aspect either. Hitler is a prime example. There are many others, but do I really need to go on...?



gsgary said:


> Maybe not but the criminals will just come and steal it from your place



LoL, I keep my weapons in a safe. Your logic is failed.


----------



## mrpink (Jun 15, 2011)

A few more threads like this and I am going to need to replace the scroll wheel on my mouse.

Free bump.  GLWS.







p!nK


----------



## o hey tyler (Jun 15, 2011)

mrpink said:


> Free bump.  GLWS.
> 
> 
> p!nK



Good luck with shit?


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 15, 2011)

Canadians own just as many guns as americans but we have less crime. there are also more stabbings than shootings here. Guns are not the problem. Letting someone who has never touched a gun decide its laws is like letting someone who has never touched a camera design one.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Maybe not but the criminals will just come and steal it from your place



That's like a criminal trying to go to a police station and steal guns, everyone is armed and they don't know where the guns are locked up.  Crap, I don't even where my guns are locked up!  j/k ... of course I do know... I think... 

Have you ever heard of a shoot out at an NRA convention?  I don't think so, there are way too many people there that will shoot back! They'll go somewhere that no one is armed, like gun free zones.


----------



## Gaerek (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> *1. Gun ownership is beyond hunting and self-defense.*
> 
> 2.  I stated previously that gun posted cosmetically looks like an M16, but it doesn't function like an M16.  It shoots the same caliber as your Ruger Mini 14, which is a ranch rifle.
> 
> ...



Everything you posted here is important. However, the boldfaced line is key. The straw man the anti-gun lobby like to throw out is that certain guns are impractical for hunting and self-defense. Want to know why the US has the 2nd Amendment? Hint: It's not hunting or self-defense. Here, I'll give you a clue:



> That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,  it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to  institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and  organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to  effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that  Governments long established should not be changed for light and  transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind  are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right  themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But  when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the  same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it  is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to  provide new Guards for their future security.  &#8212; Such has been the  patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity  which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.



And for reference:



> A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free  State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be  infringed.



Keep in mind, that during the War for Independence, a militia could *NOT* exist without private gun ownership. And this was a well known fact to the writers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The founding fathers intended for us to be able to own guns. There's only been one Supreme Court case that involved the 2nd Amendment so far, and that court case upheld the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

And for those that say firearms are unsafe, you're simply not looking at the statistics. If your argument is that guns should be banned because they're unsafe, then we need to ban cars, cigarettes, alcohol, ladders, and anything that can start a fire. In addition, shooting sports are among the safest sports in the US. So by this logic, we need to ban our children from playing basketball, (American) football, soccer (or football for anyone not in America), baseball, and track and field as well, because statistically they're all FAR more dangerous than ANY shooting sport.


----------



## adversus (Jun 15, 2011)

All I wanted was to see some nice photography using firearms as subject matter.  Sigh.


----------



## Gaerek (Jun 15, 2011)

adversus said:


> All I wanted was to see some nice photography using firearms as subject matter.  Sigh.



Impossible without a gun control debate!


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jun 15, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Well, I'm not contesting the right to own guns, I totally understand the self-defense perspective, and I also understand hunting for food...   the point was that the particular gun that started this had nothing to do with either of those things.  That gun was built from the ground up to kill people.  I agree, that plenty of folks are plenty qualified to own and operate that sort of device, but none of them need it, and it's FAR TOO EMPOWERING for the folks who are not qualified, but can obtain it anyway.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a point where it stops being a tool, and starts becoming an ego booster.  In an extremely small number of cases, it allows (encourages?) crazy people to do crazy things.
> 
> Promoting self defense makes for a safe society... promoting the types of weapons shown in this thread makes for a society ripe with power struggles.  People should not feel encouraged to exert their will over others, and assault weapons are engineered for that specifically, exerting force.
> 
> ...



If you would have stopped after the first paragraph, I would have conceded that that was the best anti-gun argument I have ever heard anybody make.  In any case, I do disagree.  I have several so-called 'assault rifles' and none of them have ever killed anybody.  I also have some WW1 and WW2 bolt action rifles that most certainly have.  I also have a few swords that were captured in combat.

I read about a story this morning about a guy who was beaten to death by a baseball bat.  I think we should ban baseball bats.

To put it concisely, my opinion is that there should be no limitations on types of firearms(or baseball bats) that are available.  I am also of the opinion that anybody who uses those devices improperly should be tried by a jury of their peers and put to death.  I feel the same way about drunk drivers who kill people, and there are a lot more of them than there are nuts who happen to get their hands on a so-called 'assault rifle'.

The thing is, there are already laws against murdering people or shooting at people or hitting people with baseball bats.  Making another law to get rid of those guns or baseball bats doesn't change anything.  The people who are going to commit such a crime against humanity as murder simply don't care if the tool that they happen to use is also illegal.

My last thoughts; there has never been a mass shooting at a gun range.  The only mass shootings in U.S. history were in places where it was against the law to have a gun in the first place...that is why they were mass shootings.  The criminals knew nobody would be able to defend themselves.


----------



## Gaerek (Jun 15, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> My last thoughts; there has never been a mass shooting at a gun range.  The only mass shootings in U.S. history were in places where it was against the law to have a gun in the first place...that is why they were mass shootings.  The criminals knew nobody would be able to defend themselves.



I just had to quote this. You mentioned that A.U. had one of the best anti-gun arguments. This is one of the best examples of why gun control is bad. I (thankfully) live in one of only 3 (4 next month, woohoo!) Unlimited CCW states in the union. I feel safe knowing that there's likely a good, law abiding citizen, carrying his piece nearby at any given time. I get weary when I visit cities where only criminals will be carrying concealed weapons. Knowing that I would have to rely on the police to correct any active shooter situations. Remember kids, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"

I just noticed this, but A.U. lives in one of the other Unlimited CCW states. Do you feel safer knowing that non-felon, law abiding citizens could be around to help you should someone "start sh**" (as you put it)?


----------



## Netskimmer (Jun 15, 2011)

Why should we keep (and learn to responsably use) our guns?

When Japanese Naval Marshal General Isoroku Yamamato (the man that planned the Pearl Harbor attack in WWII was asked about invading the U.S. his response was this. "I would never invade the U.S., there would be a gun behind every blade of grass."

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the  Soviet Union  established gun control.  >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ------------------------------ 

In 1911,  Turkey  established gun control. >From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ------------------------------ 

Germany  established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ------------------------------ 

China  established gun control in 1935.  >From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated 
    ------------------------------ 

Guatemala  established gun control in 1964. >From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ---- ------------- ------------- 

Uganda  established gun control in 1970. >From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ------------------------------ 

Cambodia  established gun control in 1956. >From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. 
    ----------------------------- 

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jun 15, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> Knowing that I would have to rely on the police to correct any active shooter situations. Remember kids, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"



Warren vs DC decision stated that government employees are "not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for a failure to provide adequate police protection". The Supreme Court also ruled in a similar case, Castle Rock vs Gonzales.  These are case laws that the court and justices have to follow, not some personal opinion or inflated statistic numbers.  I'm glad to see more and more women don't buy in the BS that has been spewing out of the Brady Campaign group for so many years.


----------



## vtf (Jun 15, 2011)

This thread makes me miss Dallas.


----------



## Gaerek (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > Knowing that I would have to rely on the police to correct any active shooter situations. Remember kids, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!"
> ...



There, fixed (you forgot the not before generally). What a shame. DC wants to absolve the police for negligence AND take away an individuals right to defend themselves. One reason I will NEVER live there.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jun 15, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > My last thoughts; there has never been a mass shooting at a gun range.  The only mass shootings in U.S. history were in places where it was against the law to have a gun in the first place...that is why they were mass shootings.  The criminals knew nobody would be able to defend themselves.
> ...



It took me 10 months for the wonderful State of Texas to acknowledge my 'right to keep and bear arms' and see fit to issue me a CHL.  I'm glad that there are still some states in the Union that are still free.

FWIW, my favorite is a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Brommeland Max Con V holster, although occasionally, I'll just take along the LCP.  I wish I could find a way to communicate that it isn't about power over somebody else, but instead it is about the knowledge that if push comes to shove, at least I will be able to protect my family.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> Have you ever heard of a shoot out at an NRA convention?  I don't think so, there are way too many people there that will shoot back! They'll go somewhere that no one is armed, like gun free zones.



Haha, that's exactly what I said to Keith at the gun show the other weekend.  They had cops present for obvious reasons but I started entertaining the idea of... *WHAT IF* someone came in here to shoot the place up?  They wouldn't get past the door.    If the cops at the entrance didn't get him first, the THOUSANDS of people with their endless amount of ammo and their THOUSANDS of shotguns, handguns, rifles and lord knows what else, would get him.  And it was then I turned to my husband and said, "You know... we're probably in the safest place we could possibly be in the Philadelphia area right now.  No one is gonna come in here and try to f*** sh*t up because they know their gonna go down before their other foot crosses the doorway behind the first.  :lmao:


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> adversus said:
> 
> 
> > All I wanted was to see some nice photography using firearms as subject matter.  Sigh.
> ...



Haha, I giggled when I saw that you had changed your avatar to a picture of a shotgun.    That can't POSSIBLY be inspired by *this* thread...


----------



## Derrel (Jun 15, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever heard of a shoot out at an NRA convention?  I don't think so, there are way too many people there that will shoot back! They'll go somewhere that no one is armed, like gun free zones.
> ...



e.rose, your little gun show anecdote is spot-on, at the individual criminal level, and at the level of despotic national or military leaders; all three types of tyrants understand that an armed citizen, or an armed population, is one that can NOT simply be overtaken and placed under submission with force, because the people are able to keep, and bear (meaning to hold, aim,and to use) weapons. THis is why the founders of the USA stated very plainly that a well-armed militia was necessary to the security of a free state; the Federalist Papers, which detail the behind-the-scenes discussion that occurred among the founders of this great country make it clear that the "militia" was NOT, I _repeat was NOT, a militia in the sense of a national guard, but consisted of all "able-bodied men between the ages of 15 and 60 years of age." Not a regular, organized, military defense corps, but regular,everyday citizens, with firearms in their own homes and on their persons._


----------



## Gaerek (Jun 15, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > adversus said:
> ...



Pure coincidence, actually.  It's been like that for a week or so now. Took some shots of my Mossberg 500 Mariner, and thought it made a good avatar.


----------



## adversus (Jun 15, 2011)

1.  Guns are used for hunting (long rifles, shotguns, high-power handguns)
2.  Guns are used for sport (target shooting, exhibition, etc.) as a technical/skill exercise (long rifles, shotguns, handguns, assault rifles (or civ version, ala AR-15)
3.  Guns are used for self defense (all of the above)

a.  Nobody will ever prevent a human from lawfully obtaining food for their family
b.  Nobody will ever block a sport that uses a dangerous weapon (archery? javelin?)
c.  Until a government can guarantee to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, #3 will never be a valid argument for banning guns.  

That's my view. And I think that's a fairly realistic and pragmatic view of guns.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jun 15, 2011)

Ok, I have seen the light.  You guys have convinced me.  I will give up all my guns...

Just one thing...Bad guys, first.


----------



## NikonRookie (Jun 15, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay at least now I know I'm not the only crazy person on here...
> ...



I had a LCP and didn't care for the recoil....way too sharp. I instead bought a Kahr MK9.....basically an all steel PM9. The heavier gun has less perceived recoil and is quite pleasant to shoot. With that said, don't let your husband buy a glock. Sure they are good reliable guns, but if he wants one of the nicest 9mm polymer pistols available he should go with the HK P30 or HK P2000 if he doesn't like the grip on the P30. HK guns are basically the Ferrari's of the polymer handgun world. Think of the Glock as a Subaru........


I actually wouldn't mind hearing arguments from the anti-gun liberals if they would humor us and get to a range for an hour and actually shoot some of these "death contraptions" and witness the sport as we pro gun people know it. Maybe they would see that it isn't just a bunch of hillbillies getting their rocks off. I have seen people from all walks of life at the range here in Lower Bucks County. Anywhere from the refined 50 yr old gentlemen with the $100,000 mercedes parked out front walking around in his $8,000 suit to the young poor college couple brushing off a couple hours of study time to relieve some stress and enjoy some solitude with the muffs on and complete focus on nothing but the little bullseye floating around in that narrow path of vision. It isn't about ego boosting, or testosterone swelling power. That is clearly an argument from someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Shooting is one of the most challenging sports I have ever been active in. It requires both an incredible amount of physical and mental ability to excel and become very good at. Try putting a .35" projectile through a 3" bullseye at 25 yards consistently through an entire magazine with a pistol that has a small sight radius. Now do the same under more trying conditions such as the stress of a timer. Consider it golf for those who don't like walking.....or riding in golf carts with "Johnny" after he's had 8 beers 

Yes, no one is going to change anyone's mind here. I just amazes me how someone can be so deathly against something that they personally have no experience with. Believe it or not folks, what you see on TV, what you read in the newspaper and what you hear on the radio are simply well executed manipulations of the truth to drive the ignorant masses to one political side or the other. Clearly there are those on this forum who have developed very strong opinions from the media without actually doing their own due diligence and trying to understand the other side of the story......god forbid.


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

NikonRookie said:


> I had a LCP and didn't care for the recoil....way too sharp.  I instead bought a Kahr MK9.....basically an all steel PM9.  The heavier gun has less perceived recoil and is quite pleasant to shoot.



Yeah, the recoil on the LCP is ridiculous.  I made myself shoot way more than I did the other day and my hand KILLED but I pushed through it.  There was a huge red imprint on my palm for about an hour and another on the soft part between my thumb and pointer finger.     And considering how it hurt yesterday from the day before that when I shot 3/4s LESS than I did today, it's REALLY gonna kill me *tomorrow* when I go to grab that wide-ass water bottle off my desk at work.   I *really* can't wait for that Kahr, but there are other things on the list of financial priorities before we go buy another gun.  That being said... how do you like your Kahr?  Everyone I talk to gives me the same answer:  "I dunno... I think they're good guns... I've never shot one... but I've never had one come back through here for repairs, so that says something..."  I wanna talk to someone who's actually SHOT one... and not just trying to SELL me one.  :lmao:




NikonRookie said:


> I actually wouldn't mind hearing arguments from the anti-gun liberals if they would humor us and get to a range for an hour and actually shoot some of these "death contraptions" and witness the sport as we pro gun people know it.  Maybe they would see that it isn't just a bunch of hillbillies getting their rocks off.



Definitely not.  There's a whole etiquette to it... which is why I haven't gotten the balls to go to the range yet without Keith because I'm not sure I know all of it yet.  



NikonRookie said:


> I have seen people from all walks of life at the range here in Lower Bucks County.  Anywhere from the refined 50 yr old gentlemen with the $100,000 mercedes parked out front walking around in his $8,000 suit *to the young poor college couple brushing off a couple hours of study time to relieve some stress and enjoy some solitude with the muffs on and complete focus on nothing but the little bullseye floating around in that narrow path of vision.*  It isn't about ego boosting, or testosterone swelling power.  That is clearly an argument from someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.



That's why I went today.  I'm in a "way" right now... I just wanted to think about nothing... concentrate on trying to get tighter groupings (because let me tell you my grouping is AWESOME.  Just.  awesome.    XD ) and not hear from anyone (other than my husband who was coaching me) for a few hours.

I even left my iPhone in the car (and that's HUGE because I'm gravely addicted to that thing!   )

If we had a 22 or something I think I'd go more, but the 380 ammo isn't the cheapest thing on the planet, so I have to strategically place my "range relaxation" time. :lmao:


----------



## Overread (Jun 15, 2011)

I would like to dispute the title 

guns do not go bang


they go pew pew pew ---



well they do with silencers (which, but the way, are totally missleading - they only quieten not silence)


----------



## e.rose (Jun 15, 2011)

Overread said:


> I would like to dispute the title
> 
> guns do not go bang
> 
> ...



Some rifles go "BOOM"... as I discovered today.  I almost **** myself when I heard that thing, it's the loudest ****ing gun I've ever heard in my life.  And I had earplugs in.


----------



## Kbarredo (Jun 15, 2011)

adversus said:


> 1.  Guns are used for hunting (long rifles, shotguns, high-power handguns)2.  Guns are used for sport (target shooting, exhibition, etc.) as a technical/skill exercise (long rifles, shotguns, handguns, assault rifles (or civ version, ala AR-15)3.  Guns are used for self defense (all of the above)a.  Nobody will ever prevent a human from lawfully obtaining food for their familyb.  Nobody will ever block a sport that uses a dangerous weapon (archery? javelin?)c.  Until a government can guarantee to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, #3 will never be a valid argument for banning guns.  That's my view. And I think that's a fairly realistic and pragmatic view of guns.





Overread said:


> I would like to dispute the title guns do not go bangthey go pew pew pew ---well they do with silencers (which, but the way, are totally missleading - they only quieten not silence)


 the correct term is suppressors they suppress sounds not silence it.


----------

