# Flash Sync Problem



## lennon33x (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok, so here is my setup

-Canon 5D with Pixel King Transmitter
-2 Neewer Strobes (connect to transceiver via PC sync cord) attached to Pixel Opas. One is a 180w and the other is a 250w
-Triopo 980 set in manual mode connected via hotshoe to the Pixel King receiver. 

All are set to channel 1/group A. 

I have two issues:
The first is that the Triopo flashgun fires around every other actuation. It's pretty inconsistent. 
The second issue I have is that the Triopo, when hooked up to the Opas, won't sync past 1/300. 

Should I suspect that it's a Pixel King problem or a Canon issue? Suggestions on modifying the setup (other than purchasing PWs)?


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## table1349 (Nov 28, 2013)

Mixing different lighting units always has the potential for problems.

Recovery speeds for different units will vary.  The Triopo well could be taking longer to recharge than the other two units.  

The "X-sync" speed of the Canon 5D is 1/200-second.

From reading on line and talking to friends that use poverty wizards, many of them report that the sync speed they can achieve tends to be slower than that of Pocket Wizards, Cyber Syncs etc.  

I would suggest that the problems lay in the Triopo and the transmitters/receivers, not the 5D.


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## Derrel (Nov 28, 2013)

As gryphobnslair suggested, I would lower the shutter speed on the camera to 1/200; I doubt you can get a full-exposure on a 5D CLassic unless you have high-tech triggers with micro-adjustable delay AND a divine wind blowing at your back, but you "might" be able to eke out 1/300 with a slight black band on one edge.

Second option; if the Neewer have built-in optical slaves, try using THOSE to trigger them.

For an in-camera hotshoe flash, the SOP applies; clean contacts on flash and camera. Make SURE the flash is locked in with the lock. And, this is the thing, a lot of times, older flashes or cameras that have been used A LOT, as in "a lot" can develop intermittent flash contact issues. Just a case in point: a few years back, a lot of D700 owners noticed that SB-800's would often NOT FIRE when the camera was in vertical mode (ie tall or ;portrait') on their D700's but the same flashes WOULD fire 100$ on D3 or D3s bodies. Issue??? Maybe different parts and an ever-so-slight tolerance than allowed the flash not to make perfect contact when the camera was in TALL mode? The issue happened to multiple people. Cameras are built from parts that are *sub-contractor-suplied* in many cases, and sometimes a few thousands out of spec if all it takes for failure. The 5D's shoe might be worn from use, or the flash foot, or both, a little bit on each surface.

I used to have an old Crown Auto Thyristor flash I got off a former wedding pro. It was beat to chit, and it did not always fire when it was HOTSHOE-mounted and in "tall" mode....but it ALWAYS FIRED when I used it that way and hooked up the PC cord as well, to the F3's PC outlet. SO, maybe try hooking the Triopo 980 up using a PC cord, and not relying solely on the hotshoe.


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## lennon33x (Nov 28, 2013)

Seeing as I would only use the Triopo as a gelled supplemental flash, do you think that fighting through the errant misfires would be worth it, or trade to YN-622?

I could consistently get it (the Triopo) to misfire every other time. I love it as an on-camera flash, but OFC is a beating.


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## Derrel (Nov 28, 2013)

Does the PixelKing receiver ALSO offer a direct, PC-cord to flash PC outlet connection, like I mentioned above...i.e. a double, fail-safe way to get the* FIRE!* signal to the flash?

If the triggering unit you've been using is new, and un-tested, _it could be the triggering unit's shoe_ that's the dud link. I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the trigger maker, but a lot of lower-priced triggers have Quality Assurance issues, so until you can isolate and really I.D. the failure's cause, it's not clear to me that the flash is the culprit.


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## lennon33x (Nov 28, 2013)

The King transmitter and receiver both have PC connections.

So is this the way you would troubleshoot?
1.) Connect PC to PC from transmitter to receiver and check for consistency?
2.) if it misfires, try PC from the 5D to the PC to the receiver?


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## Derrel (Nov 28, 2013)

I'm a little bit confused on the exact way you're trying to trigger two Neweers, and then the Triopo. So, I might not be following things along exactly right with what you have in the way of triggering hardware.

My advice was on the speedlight flash; if it is hooked up to a receiver that uses a hotshoe connection, that the hotshoe or flash foot, or both **might be** the problem. I was suggesting rigging it up so that the speedlight flash and its triggering device are connected to one another using a PC CORD, or using BOTH the hotshoe AND the PC connection on the flash and the trigger, to hopefully give you a double-connection, fail-safe, reliable triggering method.

If the speedlight flash unit trips only around every other shot, that sucks...and that seems like it would be 1) faulty connection OR, 2) as gryph mentioned, maybe you're rushing  speedlight and it's simply not recycled.

A battery-powered flash running off of only 4-AA alkalines, after 30 frames, can sometimes take 30 second before it's ready to fire.


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## lennon33x (Nov 28, 2013)

The strobes are hooked from the opas transceivers via PC sync. The speedlight is mounted to the hotshoe

The pixel opas transceivers are compatible with the King system up to 1/8000. They're about 95% reliable. The King receiver....mehhh not so much


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## Derrel (Nov 28, 2013)

reavesce said:


> The strobes are hooked from the opas transceivers via PC sync. The *speedlight is mounted to the hotshoe*



Well, that's what I thought in my first reply; hence me talking about speedlights that failed to fire in the camera's hotshoe, especially in portrait orientation. But then you said you'd use the speedlight as a background light. I might have misunderstood.

Again, my advice would be to connect the speedlight to the hotshoe AND ALSO hook a PC cord up to the 5D body's PC outlet, hidden on the side of the body under the plastic/rubber 'caps'.

You could cross-check the speedlight by testing its reliablity connected three ways; 1:hotshoe only  2: PC connected only  3: hotshoe AND PC-outlet connected, simultaneously.

As I mentioned, I have had experience with as hotshoe flash that would not fire reliably when sitting in the hotshoe, but which WOULD fire 100% reliably when it was hotshe- AND-PC connected.


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## beachrat (Nov 28, 2013)

Nevermind. I think I figured out what you were saying.
I was confused.


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## lennon33x (Nov 28, 2013)

beachrat said:


> Is the Triopo mounted on the hotshoe of the Pixel King Transmitter,which is mounted on the camera?



No, the speedlite is mounted off camera to the pixel king receiver hot shoe


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## beachrat (Nov 28, 2013)

reavesce said:


> beachrat said:
> 
> 
> > Is the Triopo mounted on the hotshoe of the Pixel King Transmitter,which is mounted on the camera?
> ...



Took me a minute to understand that.
But,to piggyback on what Derrel was saying,try a synch cord between the flash and the receiver.


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

Update: 
So after some finagling, I managed to connect PC to PC from the Triopo to the King Receiver. It's very consistent as far as firing. Thanks Derrel. 

That being said, I figured out I have two issues, both related to HSS.
1.) The Triopo flashgun CANNOT do HSS. Therefore, if I'm gelling it to use as a supplemental flash for colors, I have to be aware of my shutter speed.
2.) The King Receiver cannot do HSS regardless to what it's connected to (I'm not sure about the labeled flashguns...i.e. 580ex, 430ex (ii), etc). I connected it to the strobes and can't get higher than 1/200-1/250. 
3.) HOWEVER, with the Opas connected to the strobes, I can get up to 1/8000. So, if I need HSS with some power, the strobe/opas setup is the way to go. 

I'm pretty frustrated that it won't work appropriately, as it is labeled to do. That being said, I'm not a professional and I don't do big shoots with 10 strobes at HSS. Therefore, I don't need PWs. If anyone is concerned about the Pixel systems, then this is my 2 cents.


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## table1349 (Nov 29, 2013)

From reading your last post I get the impression that may not understand HSS.  The Neewer strobes you have do not do HSS.  HSS is not just choosing a high sync speed.  HSS involves the strobe unit putting out a series of rapid pulses of low powered flash.  I don't see that the Neewers have this ability.  This may help you understand HSS better.  http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync/


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

I understand that the Neewer strobes aren't HSS. However, I am still able to increase my relative shutter speed to 1/8000 and decrease the amount of light received by the strobe, all while preventing the errant "black" bar from showing up as a result of the curtains closing.


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## gsgary (Nov 29, 2013)

reavesce said:


> The strobes are hooked from the opas transceivers via PC sync. The speedlight is mounted to the hotshoe
> 
> The pixel opas transceivers are compatible with the King system up to 1/8000. They're about 95% reliable. The King receiver....mehhh not so much



How long between each shot are you waiting for the flash to get back up to full power ?


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

I was initially popping them off about every 5 seconds. I then realized my issue and waited up to a full minute or 2. No improvement.


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## Derrel (Nov 29, 2013)

The miscommunication is coming from the terms High Speed Sync or HSS as opposed to *flash synch at high shutter speeds*. It's kind of neat how with various monolights, it's possible to use flash at VERY fast shutter speeds, and basically use the long, slow "tail" part of a monolight flash's duration, to shoot at ridiculously-high shutter speeds. I'm so old that I often forget about that being a possibility. Paul C. Buff himself, in his old forum that he used to run, had some posts and diagrams/illustrations showing how he was able to synch his Alien Bee lights at really fast shutter speeds.


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

Additional Update:
While I understand that based on my current setup, the strobes and flash have limited capabilities regarding HSS. And further research indicates, that unless I want to sell my kidneys, getting studio strobes for HSS is a hit-or-miss situation and also a huge investment, financially. Essentially, I'm trying to optimize my equipment to know what I can push as far as sync speed. I like shooting fast apertures, so higher shutter speeds are what I'm needing. Thankfully, with my 5D, I can drop my ISO lower than I did on my Rebel.


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

Derrel said:


> The miscommunication is coming from the terms High Speed Sync or HSS as opposed to *flash synch at high shutter speeds*. It's kind of neat how with various monolights, it's possible to use flash at VERY fast shutter speeds, and basically use the long, slow "tail" part of a monolight flash's duration, to shoot at ridiculously-high shutter speeds. I'm so old that I often forget about that being a possibility. Paul C. Buff himself, in his old forum that he used to run, had some posts and diagrams/illustrations showing how he was able to synch his Alien Bee lights at really fast shutter speeds.



<--- THIS is essentially what I'm going for. 

I have two goals with this approach:
1.) Freeze motion (i.e. freeze the pouring of scotch into a glass, while lighting the scene with strobes)
2.) Use fast apertures for shallow DoF in not-so-dim light (i.e just before the golden hour in the afternoon).


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## gsgary (Nov 29, 2013)

reavesce said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > The miscommunication is coming from the terms High Speed Sync or HSS as opposed to *flash synch at high shutter speeds*. It's kind of neat how with various monolights, it's possible to use flash at VERY fast shutter speeds, and basically use the long, slow "tail" part of a monolight flash's duration, to shoot at ridiculously-high shutter speeds. I'm so old that I often forget about that being a possibility. Paul C. Buff himself, in his old forum that he used to run, had some posts and diagrams/illustrations showing how he was able to synch his Alien Bee lights at really fast shutter speeds.
> ...



Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## lennon33x (Nov 29, 2013)

gsgary said:


> Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed  Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2



Then why am I able to still get flash at 1/8000 with non-HSS strobes?


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## table1349 (Nov 29, 2013)

Take a picture with your sync speed on your camera at 1/8000 and see what you get.


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## gsgary (Dec 1, 2013)

reavesce said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed  Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2
> ...



If you are shooting flash with no ambient light shutter speed make no difference to the exposure, if you are shooting flash with ambient light your shutter speed controls the ambient exposure and aperture controls the flash exposure


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## lennon33x (Dec 1, 2013)

gsgary said:


> If you are shooting flash with no ambient light shutter speed make no difference to the exposure, if you are shooting flash with ambient light your shutter speed controls the ambient exposure and aperture controls the flash exposure



So, when I turn up the intensity of the strobe, am I increasing or decreasing the duration of the flash? Or does it actually make it brighter?


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## Derrel (Dec 1, 2013)

Paul C. Buff, Inc. - Flash Duration

As you can see, with "MOST" studio flash units, the higher the flash power, the longer the flash duration. FOr example, with my Speedotron studio flash units, 2,400 Watt-seconds, the flash duration is around 1/225 second. At lower power outputs, like 400 Watt-seconds, the same flash generator and flash head give a MUCH faster flash pop.

With IGBT style flash units,like Buff's newer "Einstein 640" units, the highest power levels give VERY quick aka "short" flash durations.

When you are synchronizing studio flash units like the Neewer units at high shutter speeds, you are working on the long, low-intensity "tail" of the flash, and so you do not gain the full benefit of the flash's PEAK power, so raising the intensity of the flash might not produce as much extra "oomph!" as you might hope.


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## lennon33x (Dec 2, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Paul C. Buff, Inc. - Flash Duration
> 
> As you can see, with "MOST" studio flash units, the higher the flash power, the longer the flash duration. FOr example, with my Speedotron studio flash units, 2,400 Watt-seconds, the flash duration is around 1/225 second. At lower power outputs, like 400 Watt-seconds, the same flash generator and flash head give a MUCH faster flash pop.
> 
> ...



Derrel, now that we've got that squared away (and yes I agree that the sensor is capturing the tail end of the flash), on to my next question. 

Let me also interject that I appreciate all of the replies. I would rather take the time to make the mistakes and to learn the process, than to fly by the seat of my pants and _hope_ I get the correct exposure/flash exposure. That is evidence of learning.

So my question is this. If, based upon my settings and the settings of the Neewer strobes and the Opas transceivers, which are not employing HSS, but are rather utilizing high shutter speeds with flash, then why am I allowed to get full exposures without banding (seeing the curtain) with these receivers rather than the King Transmitter/receiver. I ran into this issue early on with my Rebel. The Transceivers, when one is employed as a transmitter, but the other is a receiver, set strictly as RF triggers, would only allow up to about 1/250 SS without banding. When I switched to the King Transmitter and used the Opas(es) as receivers, I could get as high as 1/4000 (on my Rebel) and up to 1/8000 on my 5D. 

My understanding is that the transmitter tells the receivers (in HSS) to repeatedly fire small flashes of light to compensate for the quick curtain closures. But, if there is no indication that that information can be received from the Opas to the Neewer strobe, then how does it happen? Theories?


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

Are you shooting outside with ambient light and flash or in the studio ? In the studio you dont need fast shutter speeds, just buy a flash meter to set your lights up

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## lennon33x (Dec 2, 2013)

gsgary said:


> Are you shooting outside with ambient light and flash or in the studio ? In the studio you dont need fast shutter speeds, just buy a flash meter to set your lights up
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2



I'm not a fan of flash meters. Yes they serve their purpose, but I cannot justify a purchase of one, as I wouldn't use it as often as one might think. Fans blowing hair, water droplets, pouring liquids...all of these would/could require fastER shutter speeds to freeze motion. I also like doing outdoor portraits at night with flash. I did one recently where myself, my sister and my wife were all jumping mid-air. Fastest SS I could get was 1/250 and there was still motion blur. No ambient.


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

reavesce said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Are you shooting outside with ambient light and flash or in the studio ? In the studio you dont need fast shutter speeds, just buy a flash meter to set your lights up
> ...



I always use a flash meter i will have done my shoot will you are still messing with settings, you dont need fast shutter speeds to stop motion in a studio why can't you get your head round it ? It is down to flash duration

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## lennon33x (Dec 2, 2013)

gsgary said:


> reavesce said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



I appreciate your super helpful reply.

My question was not about settings, it was about _why_ a transmitter without HSS capabilities can sync at high shutter speeds.

Also, _your_ use of a flash meter does not help me. You probably have gear that I don't and vice versa. Telling me to use flash meter because you do doesn't really convince me to use it. It's like a vegan telling a non-vegan to eat vegan _just because..._

In all honesty, your replies are no longer helpful. I would appreciate if you would refrain from adding any more input.


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

reavesce said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > reavesce said:
> ...



Im sorry but you dont have a clue about using studio lighting

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## lennon33x (Dec 2, 2013)

gsgary said:


> reavesce said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



That's why it's called learning. It's an evolving process. To patronize and criticize someone because of their lack of knowledge in a certain area does not help them become better at their craft. It discourages them. Luckily for me, these small instances of discouragement are easily outweighed by my continuation to achieve better quality images, with and without the use of flash.


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

reavesce said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > reavesce said:
> ...



Im not you just dont listen, i wont be wasting any more of my knowlege on you 

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

Here you go, this was shot at 1/250 max sync speed, still not frozen because of flash duration







This was shot at 1/125, no difference in movement from first shot but half the shutter speed


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## lennon33x (Dec 2, 2013)

So now that we've gotten through that...

Back to my question:

How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?


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## gsgary (Dec 2, 2013)

reavesce said:


> So now that we've gotten through that...
> 
> Back to my question:
> 
> How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?



Because it is probably not


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## lennon33x (Dec 3, 2013)

gsgary said:


> reavesce said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



So...I recreated your little experiment.

I've got a Neewer 250w Strobe set at 1/8 power. Rokinon 85mm on Canon 5D set at f/1.4

This picture is at ISO 50, Shutter speed 1/200 (max x-sync speed of the Canon 5D).






This is ISO 160, Shutter Speed 1/2000 (beyond max x-sync speed of the Canon 5D)



You said that "you don't need fast shutter speeds to stop motion...it is down to flash duration."

This, is factual proof, that increased shutter speeds are _in fact_ required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). 

The whole point of my post was to understand _why_ a trigger system, designed for HSS, connected to non-HSS strobes and and a camera limited to a max sync speed of 1/200 would take pictures without curtain banding at high shutter speeds. You talked to me like I was ignorant, when, despite your best efforts, I have proven you wrong. 

Now, for any other TPF members, any idea to why I am able to do this?


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## Derrel (Dec 3, 2013)

Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are _in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). "
_
Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the _eighteen_-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of *magneto-created electric spark*. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur.

So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances.

Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum

This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired.

A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the  Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs.

Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output  has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power.

Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail".  figure1.png


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## Derrel (Dec 3, 2013)

reavesce said:


> So now that we've gotten through that...
> 
> Back to my question:
> 
> How is that a receiver that isn't hooked up to a HSS strobe/flashgun, only operates as HSS (meaning synching at high shutter speeds) when hooked up to an HSS system, but won't work the same way when used another way?



My guess is that what's happening with the HSS-enabled triggers is that they are providing the right time-sensitive information to get the shutter to fire so that the looooong, sloooooow t.1 segment of the monolight flash is what is being synchronized with.

Here's the Paul C. Buff article on flash duration. Paul C. Buff, Inc. - Flash Duration

"Normal" X-synch shutter time opening sequencing, like 1/200 on the 5D, is designed so that the shutter is open during the t.5 period, which is the short, brief period on the left of the flash power graph, when the flash duration is the shortest, AND the flash power is at its absolute PEAK. This gives what is called "full Flash Power Guide Number", or "Full GN".

However, most non-IGBT monolights have a very looooong, and sloooooow period on the right hand side of their flash output, which is lower in intensity, and around 3 full times longer than the t.5 period. By synchronizing with that looong, slooow, somewhat dim part of the flash output, it's possible to avoid the black barring that happens when the shutter is being told to sycnhronize with the briefest,earliest,brightest part of the flash burst. This is why Joseph W. in the post I linked to above is mentioning that the effective power of his 600 Watt-second monolight drops down to about an effective 100 Watt-seconds when used at high-shutter speed flash.

I think that might be the answer you're looking for.


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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks Derrel!


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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). "  Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the eighteen-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of magneto-created electric spark. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur.  So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances.  Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum  This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired.  A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the  Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs.  Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output  has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power.  Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail".  figure1.png



Derrel what I meant by saying the 1/500-1/1000 for stop motion was a general rule meant being applied to ambient light. The debate was that high shutter speeds in relation to ambient/flash don't stop motion. I tried to illustrate that with my pictures


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## gsgary (Dec 4, 2013)

reavesce said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm, a couple of things. You wrote, "that increased shutter speeds are in fact required to stop motion. Any photographer knows that in order to completely stop motion, you need to be at about 1/500 to 1/1000 to get decently sharp pictures. Depending on the speed of the subject, you could need something as fast as 1/4000 (motorcycles, etc.). "  Sorry, but that is not an accurate statement, and is based on incomplete understanding. A SLOW shutter speed, like say, 1/125 second can easily be used to stop very high-speed motion as long as the FLASH has a fast duration, and the exposure comes almost exclusively from the FLASH. In fact, a person can turn of all the lights in a room, and lock the shutter open, turn on a high-speed machine like say a lathe running at 800 R.P.M., and then fire, at leisure, a very short-duration flash unit placed close to a lathe and set at 1/64 power, and get a flash speed that's roughly 1/30,000 second in duration, and in that manner, take a high-speed flash image. This is in fact the way the VERY FIRST high-speed flash images were made in the 1850's (yes,the eighteen-fifties), in a darkened room, with light provided from a type of magneto-created electric spark. Most of today's water-droplet capturing nuts use a similar situation: a very low-powered electronic flash unit, placed fairly close to the water droplets, in a dim room. The key is that the f/stop and shutter speed must be set so that the ambient light is UNDER-exposed by a good deal; if the ambient is close to the flash in power level, then what is called "ghosting" will occur.  So, in most situations, using a normal flash synch speed of 1/60 (old days), or 1/125 second (1970's), or 1/200 to 1/250 second, it is easily possible to get STOP-MOTION, frozen, ultra-clear images using electronic flash that fires one,single,discrete "pop!" of flash output, at a sufficiently short time duration. Something like say an old Vivitar 285 flash at 1/4 power will provide a very brief flash duration, especially at close distances.  Flash at 1/1000 or more - Photo.net Portraits and Fashion Forum  This thread above talks about some different flash concepts, including the way HSS-enabled flash triggering systems triggering a SPEEDLIGHT can ALSO be used to trigger much slower-duration MONOLIGHT flashes, albeit at reduced Guide Number. This comes from Joseph S. Wiesniewski, one of *the* most technically savvy photographers the web has ever seen. Joe knows engineering, and is in fact, an engineer who used to work for one of the Detroit automobile companies before he retired.  A few years ago, when the Nikon D70 and D70s were current, there was a mini-movement of using those cameras to shoot flash in daylight, at speeds up to 1/8000 second. How? Those cameras, as well as the  Nikon D1,D1h,and D1x, had both mechanical AND electronic shutters, will allowed simple PC-cord-connected flash firing with full synch, with regular speedlight, or monolights, as long as they were not connected to the camera's hotshoe, which would arbitrarily cut speed off at the top norma speed of 1/500 X-synch. SONY also made a numbner of cameras that had this type of shutter, up until the 10 MP era in their early d-slrs.  Anyway, I guess what's going on,according to Joe, is that with HSS-enabled triggers and speedlights, monolights can ALSO be triggered by slave, and will synchromize at high speeds, above the X-synch speed, albeit only on the long, slow-duration "trailing end" of the flash, after the t.5 or motion-stopping "PEAK" OF 1)BRIEF and 2)HIGH-power output  has already been reached and dropped off, hence the slow speed (meaning poor motion stopping, due to looooong flash duration), and hence the lowered effective flash power.  Look at the graphs here: you can see the t.5 "peak power" on the far left side of the graphs; on the right hand side is the LOW-power, and sloooooow part, called the "tail".  figure1.png
> ...



Back tracking ?

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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

Hardly. 

I have proven you wrong when you stated, "Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed."

I took two different pictures, with the same aperture and flash duration, only adjusting ISO for exposure and increasing shutter speed to stop motion...to do the exact opposite of what you said would happen.


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## table1349 (Dec 4, 2013)

reavesce said:


> Hardly.
> 
> I have proven you wrong when you stated, "Freezing motion with flash depends on the speed of your flash and not shutter speed."
> 
> I took two different pictures, with the same aperture and flash duration, only adjusting ISO for exposure and increasing shutter speed to stop motion...to do the exact opposite of what you said would happen.



Really,  which one froze motion?  Both photos have motion blur in the hands and you failed to trigger the camera at the proper time to get exploding baloon shoots.  The only thing comparable in the two photos are the hands and both have what appears to be the  same motion blur.


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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

It's out of focus. I shot at 1.4. The DoF is so shallow it appears as motion, but is out of focus. Had motion blur occurred, the balloon would have been moving at the point of impact, especially with a knife that sharp


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## gsgary (Dec 4, 2013)

reavesce said:


> It's out of focus. I shot at 1.4. The DoF is so shallow it appears as motion, but is out of focus. Had motion blur occurred, the balloon would have been moving at the point of impact, especially with a knife that sharp



That's bull**** first shot nothing is in focus because of motion blur, my first shot was F9 and second F11 you have proven nothing


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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

Whoa whoa man. No need to get so mad. We are just talking theories here.  

 Scientifically speaking, the more variables you have the more errors that can occur. So, since we were talking about a change in shutter speed, I kept everything except shutter speed the same (with the exception of ISO so that I could correctly expose). 

And based on more scientific principles, the DoF is, on a FF 5D, at 85mm, with a subject distance of 3 ft, is about 0.5 inches (and I'm being generous) at f/1.4. That knife is about 8 inches long and my hand is coming from the front. That gives significant reason to believe that everything is out of focus at that working difference. 

Just because you think you're right doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong.   This is the internet after all.


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## gsgary (Dec 4, 2013)

reavesce said:


> Whoa whoa man. No need to get so mad. We are just talking theories here.
> 
> Scientifically speaking, the more variables you have the more errors that can occur. So, since we were talking about a change in shutter speed, I kept everything except shutter speed the same (with the exception of ISO so that I could correctly expose).
> 
> ...



You dont need to tell me about 5d i have one altering ISO higher can let ambient light into the shot you should know that

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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

The room was virtually pitch black.


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## gsgary (Dec 4, 2013)

reavesce said:


> The room was virtually pitch black.



Why did you use f1.4

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## lennon33x (Dec 4, 2013)

To separate my subject from the background. It was placed in a bathtub


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## gsgary (Dec 5, 2013)

reavesce said:


> To separate my subject from the background. It was placed in a bathtub



Placement of lighting seperates your subject from background with studio lighting

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## lennon33x (Dec 5, 2013)

I was limited on space (as I did not want to get water everywhere), so I used my aperture to adjust DoF vs lighting. I also did not want to set up any light modifiers, other than the snoot I used


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