# Indoor gymnastics!! Rrrrrrr!!!



## VolkswagenMommy

I’m new here!!!! Hello everyone!

Trying to get a setting that is not grainy! Rerrrrr ! I took some shots in practice yesterday during gymnastics, lower light, fast gymnasts = not great photos!!!

What I tried— (I was trying my 70-300mm since I am not sure how close I will get.)

I only have the kit lens pack at this time. 

Nikon D5600 

I tried upping the ISO they were so dark - when I post edit the light comes up but the quaility is grainy. I took through the glass on these the dark are no edit and out on the floor.

Ps- I do not have the 2.8 option with this lens this is wide open.

I will take any thoughts! Here is some post edits. 



















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## JonA_CT

I don't know much about gymnastics, but even with a fast lens inside, you'll have trouble with getting 1/1000s shutter speeds. 

Are you shooting RAW and doing any sort of post processing?

My quick suggestions, without knowing anything else, would be to slow the shutter down to maybe 1/500s, and then bump the ISO up to 6400. I think you'll get a much better file to work with...you have a beautiful sensor in that camera, it can handle 6400 pretty easily.


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## JonA_CT

One more thing...Your camera is trying to tell you that it’s not getting enough light for a good exposure. The meter is circled. You want the needle to be in the dead center, and the meter is currently telling you that you have at least 2 stops less than necessary for the ideal exposure. My suggestions above should get you closer (they’ll add about 2.5 stops of exposure).


EDIT: that screen also tells me that you’re shooting JPGs and not RAW files. RAW files have significantly more data, and it means that you’ll have better luck fixing exposure issues in post processing. It’s worth looking at Lightroom and photoshop ($10 a month) and shooting in RAW if you’ll be wanting to process photos like this often.


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## JonA_CT

Sorry...last post...the camera was set expecting to get a pop of flash on this photo, but I missed. The original RAW file is almost completely black. This is what I was able to do in LR...




tegan21oct17 by jwa04, on Flickr


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## Dave442

You have a few things you can do...
1) The window and ceiling light is throwing off the meter reading so you need to do some exposure compensation to achieve a good exposure on the main subject. Raising the exposure, especially on a JPG image, in post will generally introduce more noise than if the subject had a good initial exposure. 

2) Where to gain additional exposure with your current lens - you can't. Lowering the shutter speed is an option - but you need to go for the shots at the peak of the movement such as the first shot on the Rings or the shot on the Parallel bars. I would go to 1/250th for those types of shots. That gives you two stops more light that the 1/1000th second used. That should give a good exposure on the subject. 

3) The shots also look like they were shot at the wide end of the zoom range if that was the 70-300mm - sure that can give you f/4.5 - but a big crop with also exaggerate noise. While it is common in sports to shoot loose enough so the extended hand or foot is not out of the frame - you have a good idea in gymnastics on the position the gymnast is going to be in when you can capture them at the peak of the movement (the least amount of body movement to give the best possibility of a blur free image). So I would go to ISO 3200 from ISO 2000 (2/3rds of a stop) and zoom in a bit (so the f/4.5 at 70mm is now the same exposure as the f/5.6 the lens might stop down to at around 200mm).

4) Shoot in Raw and do the post processing in a program such as LightRoom for more control. 

5) If you have a certain focal length that you find works for most of the shots then look at picking up a fast prime lens - I use my 35mm f/1.8 indoors all the time. You may find a 50mm or 85mm would work good for you. Going to f/2 from f/4.5 is 2-1/3 stops more light and that can go towards raising the shutter speed and lowering the ISO. Check the DOF calculators to see that the subject can be completely in focus. An 85mm lens I would shoot at f/2.8 while the 50mm or 35mm will give enough DOF at f/2 and around 15 to 20 foot distance from subject.


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## VolkswagenMommy

JonA_CT said:


> View attachment 152802
> 
> One more thing...Your camera is trying to tell you that it’s not getting enough light for a good exposure. The meter is circled. You want the needle to be in the dead center, and the meter is currently telling you that you have at least 2 stops less than necessary for the ideal exposure. My suggestions above should get you closer (they’ll add about 2.5 stops of exposure).
> 
> 
> EDIT: that screen also tells me that you’re shooting JPGs and not RAW files. RAW files have significantly more data, and it means that you’ll have better luck fixing exposure issues in post processing. It’s worth looking at Lightroom and photoshop ($10 a month) and shooting in RAW if you’ll be wanting to process photos like this often.



I just swear at it when I see those settings!!! Lol! No seriously though, I didn’t know how to compensate to get it better. You know when your new and you adjust this and that and pretty soon it’s all just messed up and auto sounds better lol! 

*** I have no experience with RAW and how to best take and what to do with any setting reguarding them. It’s not a area I have played with. If your bored and have a min can you tell me the ins and outs? The why and the best coarse to take with it. So all the edit is post? How does it help. I think I have 4 type of RAW  settings. Shoot my camera is in he car!


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## VolkswagenMommy

Dave442 said:


> You have a few things you can do...
> 1) The window and ceiling light is throwing off the meter reading so you need to do some exposure compensation to achieve a good exposure on the main subject. Raising the exposure, especially on a JPG image, in post will generally introduce more noise than if the subject had a good initial exposure.
> 
> 2) Where to gain additional exposure with your current lens - you can't. Lowering the shutter speed is an option - but you need to go for the shots at the peak of the movement such as the first shot on the Rings or the shot on the Parallel bars. I would go to 1/250th for those types of shots. That gives you two stops more light that the 1/1000th second used. That should give a good exposure on the subject.
> 
> 3) The shots also look like they were shot at the wide end of the zoom range if that was the 70-300mm - sure that can give you f/4.5 - but a big crop with also exaggerate noise. While it is common in sports to shoot loose enough so the extended hand or foot is not out of the frame - you have a good idea in gymnastics on the position the gymnast is going to be in when you can capture them at the peak of the movement (the least amount of body movement to give the best possibility of a blur free image). So I would go to ISO 3200 from ISO 2000 (2/3rds of a stop) and zoom in a bit (so the f/4.5 at 70mm is now the same exposure as the f/5.6 the lens might stop down to at around 200mm).
> 
> 4) Shoot in Raw and do the post processing in a program such as LightRoom for more control.
> 
> 5) If you have a certain focal length that you find works for most of the shots then look at picking up a fast prime lens - I use my 35mm f/1.8 indoors all the time. You may find a 50mm or 85mm would work good for you. Going to f/2 from f/4.5 is 2-1/3 stops more light and that can go towards raising the shutter speed and lowering the ISO. Check the DOF calculators to see that the subject can be completely in focus. An 85mm lens I would shoot at f/2.8 while the 50mm or 35mm will give enough DOF at f/2 and around 15 to 20 foot distance from subject.



You might have lost me there about twice! Lol I need the dumbed down version lol —— I understand I just don’t know much about focal range [emoji15]




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## Designer

"Focal range" refers to the mm range of your zoom lens.  The focal range of your 70-300mm lens is 70-300.  If you find most of your shots want to be at 300mm, then that is your preferred focal length.  That somewhat limits your ability to hand-hold the camera and get a shake-free image.  The longer the focal length, the more pronounced is the movement at the end of the lens, which translates into shaky blur. 

If you want to use 300mm, your shutter speed ought to be at least 1/300 of a second, and that's for the average hand-held user.  Some people can hand-hold even longer shutter opening, but it takes practice and technique.  Go online and search out good hand-holding technique. 

Meanwhile, I responded to your other thread (please start only one thread for each topic) that you should set your ISO to "auto" and just let it go as high as it wants.


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## astroNikon

Added to the above, is there any way that you can position yourself to have the windows at your back rather backlighting the subjects?  Or are you stuck at that one location to take photos ?


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## Dave442

Don't worry about it, the best is to keep shooting. Try one new thing each event. 
i.e.: Try different shutter speeds: how slow can you go - when is there subject blur and when is there camera shake blur. Try different ISO settings: how high just looks bad - what is the minimum and maximum range in that gym. Aperture: Is that lens sharp wide open or is it better if the aperture is closed down a stop (i.e: f/5.6 wide open is then f/8 stopped down one full stop), is there enough DOF: all of the subject appears in focus. Exposure Compensation - practice dialing in some with the +/- button while in P, A, or S mode. Bracketing: Take a series of three shots with 1) exposure as recommended by camera meter, 2) one stop underexposed, 3) one stop overexposed. 

Note: the camera will store the exposure settings used within the image file. You can see this "EXIF" data within most image viewers. When you review your images it can help if you can also see this information to see what worked and what didn't work. 

Always think about the composition. Not just the subject, look at everything that is within the frame. 

I see some reflections in the images, can you put the lens right up against the glass?


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## Braineack

I bet you you shoot these in RAW format, they would have been recoverable.

I'd sacrifice a little shutter speed, considering how well 1/1000 stopped motion, to gain more light, and I go up at least one more stop of ISO.  that would give you two extra stops of light, which is significant.


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## ac12

Forget the 70-300, it's max aperture is too small.
You need a faster lens, one with a larger max aperture.

I suggest buying either the 35mm f/1.8 or the 50mm f/1.8 lens.  These lenses work much better in the lower light of indoors.  I use a 35mm f/1.8 lens to shoot basketball, and it works MUCH better than my 18-140 zoom.  I can shoot at a faster speed (1/1000 sec) at lower ISO (3200 vs 12800).

The lights and window in your pix will likely confuse the meter in the camera.   Same problem I have with sign and scoreboard lights in the gym.
You have to look at the image on your screen and adjust the exposure to compensate for the extra light sources in your image.  Then switch to manual so the camera is not confused by the back light.

BTW, in my book, you raise the ISO to whatever you need to, to get the shot.  If you don't raise the ISO, you may not get the shot.


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## SCraig

Just because you WANT to shoot at 1/1000 second at f/4.5 and ISO 2000 doesn't mean you CAN shoot at 1/1000 second at f/4.5 and ISO 2000.  If there isn't enough light for those settings then, as your photographs demonstrate, you are going to get dark photographs.  Those three settings are based on the amount of available light and you can't just make up what you want to use.  The amount of light DICTATES what you can use.  If you want 1/1000 second then you'll likely have to go to ISO 16,000 or so and live with the noise in the photo.


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## VolkswagenMommy

Dave442 said:


> Don't worry about it, the best is to keep shooting. Try one new thing each event.
> i.e.: Try different shutter speeds: how slow can you go - when is there subject blur and when is there camera shake blur. Try different ISO settings: how high just looks bad - what is the minimum and maximum range in that gym. Aperture: Is that lens sharp wide open or is it better if the aperture is closed down a stop (i.e: f/5.6 wide open is then f/8 stopped down one full stop), is there enough DOF: all of the subject appears in focus. Exposure Compensation - practice dialing in some with the +/- button while in P, A, or S mode. Bracketing: Take a series of three shots with 1) exposure as recommended by camera meter, 2) one stop underexposed, 3) one stop overexposed.
> 
> Note: the camera will store the exposure settings used within the image file. You can see this "EXIF" data within most image viewers. When you review your images it can help if you can also see this information to see what worked and what didn't work.
> 
> Always think about the composition. Not just the subject, look at everything that is within the frame.
> 
> I see some reflections in the images, can you put the lens right up against the glass?



Ya I was more or less behind the glass on those to shoot about another 50 frames of the day.  Mostly out in the open air with athletes


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## VolkswagenMommy

Thank you for all the feed back guys! As you can tell I am a beginner at stretching my legs on the pro settings. I read many articles that mentioned to to try various settings this was just one of about 5 ——— this was the better if you can believe that! Lol.... there was a lot of talk about post edit—- so I tried it. If there is one thing I have learned —- just keep changing and shooting. The issue this day (when I was out in the open floor, no glass) there was no good setting. I’m starting to think my shorter faster lens is best. But let’s face it, I can’t zoom the way I’d like. And seating is for CRAP! I’ll just have to play it by the seat of my pants tomorrow and see what I can get. If you have more ideas feel free to keep shooting them my way! I’ll need more things to try tomorrow for sure. This setting is in a resort ball room for the meet. This should be interesting just based on that alone! Lol


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## ac12

When you use a FAST lens like a 35mm f/1.8 or 50mm f/1.8, you cannot zoom, cuz the lenses are not zoom lenses.  You give up the ability to zoom, for the FAST low light capability of the lens.  It is a trade-off.  There is no free lunch.

Shooting indoors low light can be a challenge even for experienced photographers.

Before you use Manual exposure mode, you need to understand exposure, and how and why to adjust.  Otherwise you are setting the Manual settings blind.


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## weepete

If I'm shooting low light like this I'll spot meter to set up a decent exposure if the lighting is consistant.  

Sometimes though there's just not enough light and consumer lenses just won't cut it. Occasionally it can be so dimly lit that even an f2.8 is not much use.


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## Light Guru

Don’t shoot toward a window unless you are in manual. It will screw up the exposure. 


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## Designer

VolkswagenMommy said:


> If there is one thing I have learned —- just keep changing and shooting.
> 
> I’ll need more things to try tomorrow for sure. This setting is in a resort ball room for the meet. This should be interesting just based on that alone! Lol


When you enter a new venue for the first time, you need to evaluate the conditions, particularly the light and available shooting positions.  This is why they say "keep trying different modes".  The trick, then, is to remember what modes work with what conditions.


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## Roberto Dino

hi !in my opinion what it need is shoot in spot metering and avoid the subject in front if the  window  backlighting, plus if the shot is in action(sports) , mean  need fast  shutter speed  .


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## VolkswagenMommy

So for the learning curve I am on in the “pro settings”, I think they are not terrible! Lighting —— was awful, bunch of refract off the lights as you have to look up at the gymnast but there are some I love! Thank you so much for all your guidance, please feel free to add some more!!!! My son is the lil dude with his “man bun” lol 



























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## VolkswagenMommy

Lol! Let me know whatcha think [emoji51]


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## ac12

VolkswagenMommy said:


> Lol! Let me know whatcha think [emoji51]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You did well.

Now record the light conditions and camera settings, so the next time you run into a similar situation, you have your past experience to work from, rather than going from scratch.


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## KmH

Digital images don't have, and cannot have, grain.
They have one or more of several types of image noise.

Understanding Image Noise


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## Derrel

You did okay at this meet. You got better exposures, and captured some nice moments. Keep working on your photography game, and you will get better and better!


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## Roberto Dino

indoor sport photography without specific gear is not easy. this are pretty good! in my opinion i can fix the wb and a good PP   !


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## VolkswagenMommy

Thank you for all your positive comments! I really love to shoot! I’d like to be a whole lot better at it! And like most alpha people I don’t like to be unsuccessful! Lol but I do know when I push in on the photos = details are lost [emoji15] but on a phone or a smaller glance .... I love them! Lol there I would say I have about 75 good shot composition and semi decent clarity. But they are far from awesome! Lol some of it I am sure is I love all these boys to death!!! And every time each and every one of them is on the equipment I am so excited!!! I’m sure my nerves don’t add to stability and in that setting a tripod is impossible! Thanks again! I love all the tips you all are giving! This moon is great tonight—— I wish I had half a clue how to photo that! [emoji2]


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## ac12

Moon is in full daylight.

Manual 

ISO = 200
Shutter speed = 1/1000
Aperture = f/8
Then adjust from there to get more or less exposure of the moon's surface.


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## VolkswagenMommy

ac12 said:


> Moon is in full daylight.
> 
> Manual
> 
> ISO = 400
> Shutter speed = 1/1000
> Aperture = f/8
> Then adjust from there to get more or less exposure of the moon's surface.



This is a nighttime setting on tripod? Cause if it is I might just jump outside! [emoji3]


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## ac12

VolkswagenMommy said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moon is in full daylight.
> 
> Manual
> 
> ISO = 200
> 
> Shutter speed = 1/1000
> Aperture = f/8
> Then adjust from there to get more or less exposure of the moon's surface.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a nighttime setting on tripod? Cause if it is I might just jump outside! [emoji3]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


YES, night time on a tripod, preferably with the longest lens you have.
Correct the ISO down to 200


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## VolkswagenMommy

ac12 said:


> VolkswagenMommy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moon is in full daylight.
> 
> Manual
> 
> ISO = 200
> 
> Shutter speed = 1/1000
> Aperture = f/8
> Then adjust from there to get more or less exposure of the moon's surface.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a nighttime setting on tripod? Cause if it is I might just jump outside! [emoji3]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YES, night time on a tripod, preferably with the longest lens you have.
> Correct the ISO down to 200
Click to expand...


K!!! I’m gonna give it a try!


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## VolkswagenMommy

Lol, ok— so I can laugh, cause it looks “noisy” but that was tons of fun! Feel free to let me know how I could have made changes... I totally forgot the whole take in the RAW thing. Maybe that might have made a difference! The first one I tried to show you the settings outside... the second settings I was inside so disregard the meter but those were my settings .

Either way that was a fun experiment! In AZ is still 65 out so it was beautiful out there!









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## Derrel

Atta' way, Mama!!!!


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## ac12

You gotta try, to learn.
Now you know how to do it again.

I'll trade you my 44F for your 65F.
Shooting soccer when it is 44F is tough for me.  Old muscles and cold, do not work well together.


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## VolkswagenMommy

Well I tell ya I’m falling to pieces to!!! My kids are like ‘cmon mom!!!! Lol should have had kids in my 20’s instead of 30’s! Lol they are 7 and 9. They LOVED MY MOON photo! I am so excited about that! Lol you guys have to give me setting and send me out on assignment lol that worked well! Here is one I edited a quick bit




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## Designer

VolkswagenMommy said:


> I’m sure my nerves don’t add to stability and in that setting a tripod is impossible!


Here's something else to buy:  A monopod.  Many sports photographers use a monopod to steady the camera.


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## KmH

When we shoot indoors we shoot through a few feet of atmosphere.
When we shoot the moon we shoot through a 100 miles column of turbulent and moving atmosphere.
That makes it hard to get nice sharp focus of the moon.

So what many do is shoot video of the moon, at 25 to 60 frames per second for up to a few minutes.
They then look at each of the still frames that make the video looking for the lucky more sharply focused frames they got when the atmosphere was less turbulent. That's called Lucky Imaging.

They then combine (stack) the best of those lucky frames (usually several _hundred_ frames) into a single image using software designed for such.
High Resolution Lunar Images with a DSLR


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## ac12

The  moon is something that confuses a LOT of novices.
I was in a photo class and some of the students asked me how many seconds my exposure of the moon was.
They were totally confused when I told them 1/1000 of a second.  A small fraction of a second, not many seconds as they had assumed.
"But it's DARK."
Well the sky is DARK, but the moon itself is in broad daylight and BRIGHT.

And unless you have a LONG lens, with a spot meter in your camera, you cannot meter the moon.  You would be metering too much of the DARK sky, and biasing the reading.
This is why I used the sunny 16 rule.  But that should be the looney 11 rule, for the moon.  Then adjust +/- as I want to.


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## ac12

VolkswagenMommy said:


> Well I tell ya I’m falling to pieces to!!! My kids are like ‘cmon mom!!!! Lol should have had kids in my 20’s instead of 30’s! Lol they are 7 and 9. They LOVED MY MOON photo! I am so excited about that! Lol you guys have to give me setting and send me out on assignment lol that worked well! Here is one I edited a quick bitView attachment 153006
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Change the composition so the moon is not dead center.
The old rule of 3rds.  Divide the H and V into 3rds, and put the subject (the moon) on one of the intersections.


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## VolkswagenMommy

I was gonna head out again tonight but I don’t think I am gonna make it. I tell ya it was so bright before dusk! And the Arizona sun still out.. would have made a amazing photo chance... as I waited for gymnastics to be over....lol if I would have had my camera. Took the dang thing out to do the moon last night!!! Hahahah I was so jazzed up to do it, it was a bummer!


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## ac12

VolkswagenMommy said:


> I was gonna head out again tonight but I don’t think I am gonna make it. I tell ya it was so bright before dusk! And the Arizona sun still out.. would have made a amazing photo chance... as I waited for gymnastics to be over....lol if I would have had my camera. Took the dang thing out to do the moon last night!!! Hahahah I was so jazzed up to do it, it was a bummer!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There is tomorrow night, and the night after . . .

Keep going while the flame of enthusiasm is burning.


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## vintagesnaps

The second set of photos taken of gymnastics were obviously brighter and better quality. I'd suggest you start thinking about making sure the camera is straight, and try to notice the posts/poles etc. and make sure they're straight. I've found there are often a lot of lines and poles and signs, etc. when shooting sports to think about when framing shots. It seems like in some too you got some odd perspective, which I'm wondering if that's the lens (since kit lenses often aren't the best or sharpest lenses).  

I'd also notice backgrounds. If you're there a little early while your son's getting ready, try to just look thru the viewfinder and think about the background you'd be getting. As needed change your vantage point (depending on where you can sit/stand) and notice how the background changes as you take a step or a few steps. 

Shooting sports involves timing too. Take some time to watch his routines and notice where there are times that there may be a momentary pause - such as when he goes up and there's a pause before he comes back down. Or when he holds a position for a few seconds, that could make for a good photo opportunity. Then next time if he does some of the same routines you'll be able to anticipate that a good photo op is coming up.


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## ac12

As Sharon said, watch the background.  The background can be a real bummer when you have people in the background wearing BRIGHT clothes.  The BRIGHT clothes attracts your eye to it, and away from the kids.  This is the problem that I have shooting indoor sports (volleyball and basketball).


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## ac12

You should shoot a LOT.  The more you shoot, the easier it will get.
It is like any kind of practice.  You practice to get better.
Example, I've shot football enough that it is fairly easy for me to shoot.  Soccer however, is another story, I keep shooting it because I am not happy with how I shot the last game.  There is still lots of room for improvement.  So I keep shooting and practicing.

Keep notes on the conditions at the venues and how you set the camera.  What worked and what did not, and why.
The better notes you take, the easier it will be to deal with different conditions at other venues.  Don't work from scratch, or keep making the same mistake.  Use your notes to jump start the problem solving.


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## Garasaki

I personally feel that indoor sports photos, especially at "kid" age meets, are one of the most difficult things to photograph well.  You are really fighting an uphill battle there.  I took my camera to a collegiate gymnastic meet over the weekend, and there were amazing scenes to be photographed but I don't think I stood a chance from the stands.

Having said that, I think you did pretty good on that second set of pictures.  The ones on the rings are pretty darn good.  I guess I missed it along the line, but what lens(es) are you using and what are you doing for postprocessing?  Shooting in RAW??

That coach with the white Mohawk....man that is awesome.  Like maybe the best hair I've seen.  EVER!


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## ac12

Garasaki said:


> I personally feel that indoor sports photos, especially at "kid" age meets, are one of the most difficult things to photograph well.  You are really fighting an uphill battle there.  I took my camera to a collegiate gymnastic meet over the weekend, and there were amazing scenes to be photographed but I don't think I stood a chance from the stands.



Talk to the coach and volunteer to shoot pix for him and the team.   
Note that this is a serious commitment.
If you are lucky, that may get you access to shoot from the floor.
And you may have to ignore your child, to concentrate on the priority events/gymnasts.
You likely will have to prove, with a portfolio, that you can shoot decent gymnastic pix.


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## VolkswagenMommy

Garasaki said:


> I personally feel that indoor sports photos, especially at "kid" age meets, are one of the most difficult things to photograph well.  You are really fighting an uphill battle there.  I took my camera to a collegiate gymnastic meet over the weekend, and there were amazing scenes to be photographed but I don't think I stood a chance from the stands.
> 
> Having said that, I think you did pretty good on that second set of pictures.  The ones on the rings are pretty darn good.  I guess I missed it along the line, but what lens(es) are you using and what are you doing for postprocessing?  Shooting in RAW??
> 
> That coach with the white Mohawk....man that is awesome.  Like maybe the best hair I've seen.  EVER!



Lol coach Jay!!!! Yes he is the coolest and NICEST COACH imaginable!!! 


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## VolkswagenMommy

Took a bunch at this last weekends meet —— lighting, and seating was frightening! Really was tough, sun coming in on parallel bars... and dark as heck on other side. I still have so much noise in these. Really wish I could get that solved. Any how.... shoot me some more critique, other than composition because there was no good viewing points lol!!!!















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## ac12

Looks good.

Don't worry about the noise.
I tell people, to crank up the ISO as high as you need to, to get the picture.  
Noise is better than getting no/blurry picture, because your ISO is set too low.
Like many things in life, this is a trade-off.


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