# Print mark-up/profit



## jowensphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Just a quick question for those currently charging for their work:

I suppose it doesn't matter if you use a third party printer or print yourself, but how much do you mark up the price of prints? Is there a certain percentage you apply to the printers price/cost of printing @ home?


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## CCericola (Feb 8, 2012)

I assume you are talking about retail photography (portraits, weddings, etc...) General MSRP is usually around 40% profit margin. But you will have to calculate your CODB and if you are looking to make more profit off of prints or sitting fees. I find that only large chain stores can profit from low or no sitting fees and expensive prints because they can handle large volume. 

For me I charge a fee that includes a print credit. After that, additional prints and products are, of course wanted, but I am not relying on them for my business to survive. Does that make sense? I think my business manager could explain it better then I can.


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## jowensphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Yes, portraits and weddings are what I was referring to, sorry if I was a bit vague.

So, just to make sure I understand: Your base/sitting fee includes a credit for $x to be put toward prints? Then additional a la carte prints are $x/image or sheet?

I am FAAAAR away from charging for services, but it is definitely in my 3-5 year plan. At this point I am trying to make sense of the whole business side of things.

Thanks SO much for your detailed response.


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## Big Mike (Feb 8, 2012)

I do take the cost of prints (Cost of goods sold) into account, but there is a lot more than that to figure out the price to charge.  For example, an 8x10 from my lab is less than $3...but I charge a lot more than that.


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

8x10 and below I tell them to do their own.
For the larger prints I add 25% to my cost.
Prints are not a profit center for me. I only do them if requested.

The VAST majority of photos are never printed.


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## jowensphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> I do take the cost of prints (Cost of goods sold) into account, but there is a lot more than that to figure out the price to charge.  For example, an 8x10 from my lab is less than $3...but I charge a lot more than that.



I think you gave an answer that I forgot to ask for  

I'll take a look at some businesses close to me and see what the going rate is.


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 8, 2012)

The problem for most people is that they don't know how to correctly figure COGS (Costs of good sold)
The standard is to mark up 3 X cost or 33% profit. So you have 33% of your cost to cover COGS, 33% cover CODB and 33% Profit.

But because people really don't know how to correctly figure COGS, they get it all wrong and they think $30 for an 8 x10 is surely too much andd ripping off thier client.

Afterall from your profesional lab a 8 x 10 runs $1.99 so x 3 = $6. right? wrong...very wrong

COGS  includes the Price of materials, shipping, LABOR (your labor) Packaging (Those cute boxes and ribbons you buy) and when real cost analysis is done in large companies a few things that are part of CODB can be included into COGS. BUTt even if we don't get that fancy and complicated, the biggest mistake people make is not including labor into the COGS.

Now this is not your shooting time. That should be a separate fee. But if it is not and you only charge for prints then even that is included in COGS.

People think since they don't pay anybody to do the labor there is no cost but there is. and when you really figure the time spent, Sorting and culling images, Editing images, Ordering images etc. That time is much more than the actual shoot time. So you need to figure in an amount of time spent doing that and how much per ordered image(File/pose) that would be. Now as far as labor rate, you don't use what you want to make as a business owner because hopefully that would e a LOT. But you use what a standard labor rate may be to have someone do that job.

When you really figure this all out, you actually end up with about $2 for raw goods, $2 for shipping and packaging and $6 for labor for that 8 x 10 = $10 COGS

$10 x 3 = $30
and there ya go


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

....or they can get it for $2.00 if they order it themselves...hard to justify.
....I know the arguments....just putting it out there.


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 8, 2012)

MReid said:


> ....or they can get it for $2.00 if they order it themselves...hard to justify.
> ....I know the arguments....just putting it out there.



I don't think you do, Soup Cost $1.50 is that what a fine restaurant charges?

You are not selling them printing services.

Even if you do then only charge themn cost... or you sell them a digital file for them to print themselves for that $2, You either charge a creation fee OR for those Digital Files COGS are still considered. Your COGS are not 50 cents for that DVD you burned.

Until people understandin what it is they are actually selling and the associated real costs, You have people shooting and images on disk for $50...and then...It's all over


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

....then I guess it's all over.

Of course there are customers who appreciate quality and want to work with true professionals and will pay for it....but the middle seems to have dropped out of the market for the most part.


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 8, 2012)

Probably is...


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 8, 2012)

I should add, there are MANY reason why the "Businesss"s in the state it is. But one of the biggest problems is people do not know how to price correctly and just pull numbers out of the air. There is a reason to everything in business and there are things you need to know in order to be profitable and people don't take the time to find out how to make these calculations and projections..and then it's $50 shoot and burns


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## MLeeK (Feb 8, 2012)

MReid said:


> ....or they can get it for $2.00 if they order it themselves...hard to justify.
> ....I know the arguments....just putting it out there.



And then your hard work is out there printed at a wal-mart Kiosk looking like a bag of sh1t compared to the beautiful image they would be getting from a professional lab. OH HELL NO! And believe me it's bad.

A couple of years back the average price of an 8x10 in the US was $25-and most photographers were losing  money.



MReid said:


> ....then I guess it's all over.
> 
> Of course there are customers who appreciate quality and want to work  with true professionals and will pay for it....but the middle seems to  have dropped out of the market for the most part.



This is totally not true-it's a result you are seeing from lack of marketing and not creating the NEED. You aren't marketing to the right people and you aren't making them NEED your services. It is definitely there.


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

Not talking about me...I work as much as I want to work.

If you think the industry is strong you have your head in the sand. 
If your business is strong then good for you, but as I said for the most part the middle is dropping out, and the decline is accelerating.


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## KmH (Feb 8, 2012)

MReid said:


> ....or they can get it for $2.00 if they order it themselves...hard to justify.
> ....I know the arguments....just putting it out there.


What they buy for $2 is a piece of paper that has some ink on it. For $2 they have to provide the actual image that gets put on the paper with the ink.


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## KmH (Feb 8, 2012)

I marked up prints on a sliding scale. Desktop size prints got marked up a lot more than wall size prints did.


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## CCericola (Feb 8, 2012)

MReid said:


> Not talking about me...I work as much as I want to work.
> 
> If you think the industry is strong you have your head in the sand.
> If your business is strong then good for you, but as I said for the most part the middle is dropping out, and the decline is accelerating.



I'm not sure you have a good understanding of the photography industry. The part time , week-end warriors and moms with cameras, no matter what they think are not really in the industry. If you are seeing a decline then you are 1. Not marketing properly, or 2. Not a very good photographer.

The retail and commercial statistics from last year have seen a nice steady rise as the population grows. Even when 9-11 happened, the studio I worked for kept going strong. ( We did lose some money trying to get some photogs home that were stuck in airports in other states but that was a short term loss) 

When I went out on my own after paying my dues working for other studios and photographers I realized that the part time craigslist photographer was not my competition. Sears and Walmart, are not my competition. There is no need for me to even try to emulate anything they do.

The first time I raised my prices I held my breath. Would anyone go for it? Well the thing is people want what they think the average person cannot afford. Like David Choe. He sold art for $500, when he decided to price his work at $10,000 then all of the sudden he was in demand. (ok, the Facebook connection didn't hurt either)


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## MLeeK (Feb 8, 2012)

CCericola said:


> MReid said:
> 
> 
> > Not talking about me...I work as much as I want to work.
> ...


Adding to Christina's awesome info...

I am just a part time warrior mom with a camera in my hand... And I do pretty fairly. I am not making millions by a LONG shot, but I am profiting enough to feed my family and keep us off the poverty level/food stamp line. Could I DO and BE more? Absolutely. However I don't want to. I only want to do maybe 3 portraits a week and maybe 3 sporting events. I don't want to work any more than 15-20 hours at this, so I market appropriately for what I NEED.
_*Your business is what you make it.*_ NO business is an "if you build it they will come" kind of thing. You have to MAKE your business work. If what you're doing isn't getting the $ you want, you're doing something wrong for you. If you put your head in the sand and say "it's not there", it won't be. It IS there-in abundance-you have to find it. It doesn't just find you. 

First and foremost you have to have a FULL picture of CODB and COG combined for your total costs. 
Then you have to know what you NEED to make and WANT to make.
How many hours, days, weeks you want to work.
That tells you what you have to make off each session/event/etc. 
Chances are you aren't going to get that much in a sitting fee... So that tells you how much you have to make off the print order.
ALL of that combined tells you who you are going to market to. Once you decide WHO you market to you have to figure out HOW-what is going to make them NEED you and only you? What is going to make them NEED to pay your price? 
You are still thinking with YOUR wallet and you have GOT to stop doing that-it's a sure fire way to failure. Other people with the same wallet value different things AND in most cases you would not be your own client. I know I am definitely not my own client! 
It's there. Truly it is


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

Remember when I said I wasn't talking about me....why are you addressing your comments toward me and or my business.
Remember when I said I know the arguments....not sure why people are repeating the arguments.

I said that when a client knows they can get a photo for 2 dollars that a photographer will have a hard time justifying charging 30....went on to say that clients who are willing to pay for quality will always be willing to pay more.

This industry is in the decline....and accelerating....I stand by that.


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## CCericola (Feb 8, 2012)

I think we are just confused by your statement because everything published by the PPA, WPPA, PMA(PSPA, PMAI) even the US dept of labor says otherwise.


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## MReid (Feb 8, 2012)

No problem...it is all in the interest of discussion. I hope they are all right. We all have our own points of view...that is what keeps things interesting.

Here is a link to a discussion somewhat along what we have been talking about....(so sorry for the hijack) interesting anyway.
This is great. Who pissed her off?? - FM Forums


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## CCericola (Feb 8, 2012)

Hehe, I remember that craigslist ad. I think I must have seen it on another forum. Scary isn't it? Bride-zillas and Mothra-inlaws are my greatest fear. Thankfully I don't have too many, I only do 15-20 weddings a year.


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## jowensphoto (Feb 8, 2012)

Appreciate all the info everyone has provided. Everyone has different outlooks, and it's certainly great to have them all to take into consideration.

I'm doing research on SBA.gov and have a few contacts in my area who have started their own photography businesses. One lady mentioned mentoring awhile back, I think it's time to get back in touch with her 

Also, thanks for taking my questions at face value... I was afraid this would turn into the "Starting My Photog Biz...PLZ HELP!" posts we're all too accustomed to reading on a daily basis. LOL


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## ahcigar1 (Feb 8, 2012)

CCericola said:


> MReid said:
> 
> 
> > Not talking about me...I work as much as I want to work.
> ...



This makes some sense.  But the fact is the everyday soccer moms and the people who buy a camera and now think that makes them pro are in fact killing the market.  Because in this economy people are much more willing to pay less than more.  And if they can get something for even worse for free then they will take it and pass up the true pro photographer.  It is happening in all aspects of photography all over.  Many people don't care what the quality is.  If it has a pricetag of free then they will take it.  The amount of marketing you always do doesn't matter.


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 8, 2012)

What industry has not been killed by "Someone able to do it cheaper"?  It's why there is no manufacturing in America and why after manufacturing failed, retail/service sector failed for similar reasons.
What industry hasn't been hit? Music, Software, PC Computers, Home Builders... list goes on and on because someone was able to do it cheaper or people wanted it or thought they deserved it for free (Piracy)

So what do you do, well you can give up and many do or are forced to.  But if you want to stay, you need to use good business practices and know how to run and price a business correctly. You can't just throw everything away. We did that in America and now look where we are.

Provide something the customer can't do themselves and that is amazing photographs. With camera technology today, Anyone can take a well exposed, in focus photo ( well some still can't even "pros") but a well exposed  and in focus image is NOT what great photography is about. If you think that's it, you don't get the_* it *_in it and you won't be able to convince any consumer that your photos are worth $500 to them.

Take Apple as an example. Love them or hate them aside. NO one wanted to pay for music. EVERYONE stole it...but wait...Apple has people Pay for music...and they do. Why?
No one thinks any PC is different. They're all the same. Why Pay $3,000 for a PC the one for $400 is fine...except...people will pay... for Apple.

It's not easy, the business does suck...but it can be done

I didn't want to get into this, I wanted to just stick to talking about how to price for the OP...but as usual....

OK, I'm done LOL


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## KmH (Feb 8, 2012)

ahcigar1 said:


> This makes some sense.  But *the* *fact* is the everyday soccer moms and the people who buy a camera and now think that makes them pro are *in fact* killing the market.


What quantitative facts do you base that statement on?

What market segment are you referring to? Because there are many, many market segments. 

The markets are pretty much self regulating. Photographers trying to participate in a market segment beyond their photographic and business capabilities either step it up, step back down, or go out of business.


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## MLeeK (Feb 8, 2012)

ahcigar1 said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > MReid said:
> ...


That's not true. The soccer mom is filling a need-her client isn't my client. They never would be and I sure do NOT want them to be. They aren't doing any damage to my market in any way, shape or form. 
_Amount_ of marketing is really irrelevant. It's what your marketing IS, what it does and how you use it. It's about who it is hitting and what their needs, beliefs, wants, desires are. I do very little in the AMOUNT of marketing I do. But what I do put out is very targeted and returns what I want it to return. If I put that same marketing out in massive quantity to just anyone it wouldn't give me the return that I want and need. I'd be throwing away marketing dollars to send stuff to the Soccer Mom's clients-the ones I do not want. 

You are at a stage where the facebook, craigslist, soccer mom photographers are bothering you... You have to get past that because they are NOT doing any damage to the industry, they're only filling a need within it. We can look down on them and snark at them all we want, but they are a viable part of the industry filling a need I DO NOT want to fill, so I am glad they're there.


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## KmH (Feb 8, 2012)

ahcigar1 said:


> The amount of marketing you always do doesn't matter.


Absolutely!

The effectiveness of your marketing is what counts, not how much marketing you do.

It does no good to market to a socio-economic demographic that isn't in the market for, or can't afford to pay for, your services and product(s).


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