# Pro or Amateur?



## tmjjk (May 21, 2012)

Looking to go pro... need some advice.... please critique


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## mwcfarms (May 21, 2012)

I think you lost some detail in the hat. At least 75% of it. I would try and bring some of those back. I suck at B&W conversions myself so thats the only thing I noticed. That and I would change the composition.


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## HughGuessWho (May 21, 2012)

I have a front row seat for this show.


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## cgipson1 (May 21, 2012)

based on the framing, lighting, and the somewhat muddy looking B&W conversion, I would say amateur!

Focus and DOF are ok.. even good. 

The bright highlights on the subjects left cheek / face are too much.. as is the blown out area in the background. The blacks lack detail. Need to even out the lighting quite a bit. 

Black and white conversion needs work also... IMO.. although I am on a laptop right now, not my calibrated monitor. 

Framing.. most pros shoot portrait type shots vertically for a reason... and seldom chop off parts of the head, or other body parts.


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## mjhoward (May 21, 2012)

Looks better than 90% of what I see on here.  If it were my kid, I'd be happy to frame it up and display it in my home.  With that said,  I probably would have cropped or shot in portrait instead.  Theres a lot of dead space particularly to the left.


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## BlueMeanieTSi (May 21, 2012)

You lose his nose in the photo.


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## tmjjk (May 21, 2012)

Thank you for the constructive criticism... I am looking to get better and improve as much as possible.  I come here to get true honest input on how to get better.  I am not going to argue back with anyones opinion... That's what I came here for.  So I will not be putting on any kind of show for anyones entertainment, sorry to disappoint.  I know I need to get better... I have no "brag images".. only "what can I do better images"... thanks for those helping me become better!  I will be better... I have only been trying this for about two months now... and I learn something every single day  and today I am sure I will learn quite a few things... its not easy to put myself out there..


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## mwcfarms (May 21, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> based on the framing, lighting, and the somewhat muddy looking B&W conversion, I would say amateur!
> 
> Focus and DOF are ok.. even good.
> 
> ...



Im going to say that for the most part I agree with everything but the horizontal vs portrait framing rule can be broken and successfully. I quite often will shoot something horizontally leaving dead space left or right  and that while yes I agree portrait framing is desirable for a lot of reasons I wouldnt be afraid to shoot both aspects because sometimes I like horizontal better.


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## o hey tyler (May 21, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> Thank you for the constructive criticism... I am looking to get better and improve as much as possible.  I come here to get true honest input on how to get better.  I am not going to argue back with anyones opinion... That's what I came here for.  So I will not be putting on any kind of show for anyones entertainment, sorry to disappoint.  I know I need to get better... I have no "brag images".. only "what can I do better images"... thanks for those helping me become better!  I will be better... I have only been trying this for about two months now... and I learn something every single day  and today I am sure I will learn quite a few things... its not easy to put myself out there..



If you've only been at it for two months, you've got a long upward slope before you shoot on a professional level. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's very odd to expect to become a pro photographer over the course of a few months.


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## gsgary (May 21, 2012)

That is black and white and not much in between


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## Robin Usagani (May 21, 2012)

for this pose and orientation, I think the subject is too centered.  It needs to be a little to the right.


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## Josh66 (May 21, 2012)

Are you asking us if we think you are ready to "go pro" based on this one picture, or if we think it was taken by a pro or not, or ... what?

Don't really understand the title...


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## Trever1t (May 21, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> tmjjk said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for the constructive criticism... I am looking to get better and improve as much as possible. I come here to get true honest input on how to get better. I am not going to argue back with anyones opinion... That's what I came here for. So I will not be putting on any kind of show for anyones entertainment, sorry to disappoint. I know I need to get better... I have no "brag images".. only "what can I do better images"... thanks for those helping me become better! I will be better... I have only been trying this for about two months now... and I learn something every single day  and today I am sure I will learn quite a few things... its not easy to put myself out there..
> ...



This.

What about your experience tells you you need to be considering going "pro"?

I hate these kind of threads. Do you read the forum at all? Don't you see what happens when a member posts "I just got a camera and I want to go pro now" threads? 

Here's my take...*if you have to ask---->> you are far from ready*!


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## 2WheelPhoto (May 21, 2012)

BestBuy/Amazon makes everyone a pro.  

They should start selling medical supplies and spacecraft tools too


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## Tkaczuk (May 21, 2012)

The only way to say your a Professional is if you are making 75% of your living off of photography. You can start a business shooting weddings and not be a professional. I would say one photo says nothing about your skill. All that really matters if others not just a few a LOT of people are going to hire you/buy you work. Most of these guy on the forum 90% don't make any kinda living off of photography which is better for them. Its extremely hard to make a living off of photographing people. I think its something like 25 professional jobs for photographers open in the U.S. every year.  That's excluding Photojournalist which doesn't make money on just photo's. Everything to be made is in the private sector.


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## Robin Usagani (May 21, 2012)

Well.. look at this way..  Go look at my website.  A few people here consider my work as "amateur" and label me as "fauxtographer".  Compare mine with yours  .


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## Josh66 (May 21, 2012)

Tkaczuk said:


> The only way to say your a Professional is if you are making 75% of your living off of photography.


Wow.  Very specific.  What if I make 74% of my living off photography, and barter stolen goods for the other 26%?


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## Tkaczuk (May 21, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Well.. look at this way.. Go look at my website. A few people here consider my work as "amateur" and label me as "fauxtographer". Compare mine with yours .



I would say your photography is better then some of the same people who would say yours is amateur. Opinion means nothing if you are making more money. 



O|||||||O said:


> Tkaczuk said:
> 
> 
> > The only way to say your a Professional is if you are making 75% of your living off of photography.
> ...



Ehh thats just a number. Would you consider yourself a photographer if stole even 26% of your income? You might, but everyone else would just say your a thief. :lmao:


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## Josh66 (May 21, 2012)

Nah - I wouldn't qualify for "thief" status till I reached 75% of my income through that avenue.  At a mere 26%, I would just be a petty criminal.


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## tmjjk (May 21, 2012)

After purchasing my first dslr camera and a 50mm lens I began to capture images here and there that evoked feeling. The occasional, wow look at the eyes in that one, or that looks magical, and of course these comments are coming from people who like me. I felt this passion that it was something I really loved.  It's been an outright obsession for the last 8 weeks or so.  I have been reading as much as I can about shutter, aperture, and iso and how they relate.  Trying to wrap my mind around focal length and lens choices... cropped sensor vs full frame. I having been using as many outlets as possible to learn more and understand more.  The misleading title was referring to if this is something I could do professionally... of course not now... I am just learning.  To take on this endeavor is a risk... I have six children and work very hard every moment of my life... this is something others see as a hobby, and I would like to continue in this direction to eventually earn an income.  I have seen other "Pro" photographers work, and some of it is awful... I just didn't want to be one of those american idol contests who perform terribly that says, "my mom always said I could sing"...   This is still going to be my passion... I just might not show anyone


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## sleist (May 21, 2012)

> I just might not show anyone




Suit yourself, but hearing criticism is how you grow.  I get far more out of negative comments than positive ones. Get good enough to know what to listen to and when to just decide you don't agree.
Just enjoy yourself and grow some thicker skin.  It will help in other places besides photography.

The photo has issues as stated.


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## Derrel (May 21, 2012)

o hey tyler said:
			
		

> If you've only been at it for two months, you've got a long upward slope before you shoot on a professional level. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's very odd to expect to become a pro photographer over the course of a few months.



A lot of newly-minted professionals have been in the "game" for only a few months. There are buyers for photography of many different levels of quality and professionalism. The market is absolutely flooded with people who have been shooting for "a few months", and who are now "professionals". The OP has a ways to go.In another year, the OP could easily be selling baby and child pictures. Gone are the days when a photographer had to have training and experience to make some money. With digital capture, there's unlimited "film" for almost no cost, and Photoshop can be used to correct all kinds of mistakes.

The OP's shot is framed as a horizontal, with loads of dead space on either side of the child, which is an exceedingly common beginner's mistake. Failing to understand what compositional space "is", and how best to "use it" is one of the hallmarks of a beginning shooter, but it's something that one can learn how to eliminate, by posing people better, and by turning the camera to the vertical orientation when it will help the composition. THe 3:2 aspect ratio of the modern d-slr is problematic for many beginners; it's an aspect ratio that takes some study to best utilize. Square-format cameras are actually easier to shoot.


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## Josh66 (May 21, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Square-format cameras are actually easier to shoot.


Gotta agree - I always wonder why people say square format composition is hard.  It comes very easily to me, especially when compared to 2:3.  In 2:3, it seems like there is a whole third of the frame that you have to find something to do with.


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## Derrel (May 21, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Square-format cameras are actually easier to shoot.
> ...



Decades ago, the Victor Hasselblad company (back when he was still alive) produced an entire series of very small, beautifully-illustrated and well-printed four color booklets on how best to use ALL aspects of the Hasselblad system. I read and re-read those booklets for many years. They had one devoted exclusively to composition with the square format, which Hasselblad was famous for. A camera that sees and captures in square format is very different than a 3:2 aspect ratio d-slr. Unless one has used a square-format camera (Rolleiflex,Hassy,Bronica,Yashica TLR,Argoflex, Maimya 6, Rolleicord, etc,etc) then it is difficult to appreciate how it actually works.

Your comment that ,"*In 2:3, it seems like there is a whole third of the frame that you have to find something to do with."* is an astute observation. Yes, one needs to "do something" with the entire compositional space. For many beginners, there's a great tendency to just plop the subject in the center of the frame,or wayyyyy off to the left of right third of the frame, and then snap the shutter. They call this dead space "negative space" in many cases. 

WHat's interesting I think is that MANY beginners take photos that would actually be much,much better if they were presented AS SQUARE-FORMAT images, with all that dead, errr, "negative space", eliminated. In web galleries, square-format images actually have a lot of eye appeal,and allow more images to be presented in the same screen real estate.


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## tmjjk (May 21, 2012)

I know I am a glutton for punishment.... but is this any better?  I took this today


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## Ernicus (May 21, 2012)

You're no more of a glutton than I.  have you seen some of the crap I been posting?  lol.  Still fun though.

This picture I like better than the first one.  I am no critic, so I won't advise.  but I do have an opinion, and I like this one, but I am wondering if a better crop, to me, leaving off the part of her outfit isnt artsy or intereting, but leaves me wondering "why is the rest of her dress not there?"

my 2 cents.


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## Josh66 (May 21, 2012)

The second one is a lot better, IMO.


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## Kerbouchard (May 21, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> View attachment 9273I know I am a glutton for punishment.... but is this any better?  I took this today



The second is a lot better but the processing needs work.  The tone in the skin is not pleasing(kind of muddy) and the over sharpening is making it a bit too contrasty.

How about posting the original color image so we can see what kind of workflow you are going through?


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## Tarayn (May 21, 2012)

mwcfarms said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > based on the framing, lighting, and the somewhat muddy looking B&W conversion, I would say amateur!
> ...


It is more traditional to shoot portraits in portrait mode, but I think in shooting some in landscape mode on a portrait shoot it adds more imagination to the photo, cropping it to the left or right


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## Kerbouchard (May 21, 2012)

Tarayn said:


> It is more traditional to shoot portraits in portrait mode, but I think in shooting some in landscape mode on a portrait shoot it adds more imagination to the photo, cropping it to the left or right



As Scott Kelby says, you know when the best time to shoot in portrait mode?  Right after shooting it horizontal...same for the 'flip' side.


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## tmjjk (May 21, 2012)

Original....teach me


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## Kerbouchard (May 21, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> View attachment 9273I know I am a glutton for punishment.... but is this any better?  I took this today


Here is a quick edit from your original...

Before/After


View attachment 9300


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## MTVision (May 21, 2012)

tmjjk said:
			
		

> Original....teach me <img src="http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9293"/>



Am I crazy or is this a different picture?

I'm not crazy about the original b/w conversion. Its a cute shot but next time try getting down on her level instead of shooting down on her.  With kids sometimes you've gotta lay right on the floor/ground to get to their level but it's worth it.


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## Kerbouchard (May 21, 2012)

MTVision said:


> tmjjk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it is a different picture.  It is most noticable in the finger placement, but it still works for demonstration purposes since it seems to be the same light, scene, and settings.


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## MTVision (May 21, 2012)

...


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## elizabethysmom (May 22, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> After purchasing my first dslr camera and a 50mm lens I began to capture images here and there that evoked feeling. The occasional, wow look at the eyes in that one, or that looks magical, and of course these comments are coming from people who like me. I felt this passion that it was something I really loved.  It's been an outright obsession for the last 8 weeks or so.  I have been reading as much as I can about shutter, aperture, and iso and how they relate.  Trying to wrap my mind around focal length and lens choices... cropped sensor vs full frame. I having been using as many outlets as possible to learn more and understand more.  The misleading title was referring to if this is something I could do professionally... of course not now... I am just learning.  To take on this endeavor is a risk... I have six children and work very hard every moment of my life... this is something others see as a hobby, and I would like to continue in this direction to eventually earn an income.  I have seen other "Pro" photographers work, and some of it is awful... I just didn't want to be one of those american idol contests who perform terribly that says, "my mom always said I could sing"...   This is still going to be my passion... I just might not show anyone



It's wonderful that you have found passion for a new hobby.  I would keep it as that for now - a hobby.  Keep reading these forums, researching, taking workshops, etc and you will realize that going pro is a lot more than spray and pray in raw and hope for the best in photoshop.  I've been studying and shooting as much as I can for a year now.  I'm no where near ready to accept payment for my work (and I don't think I'm going in that direction anyway).  Every time I post new photos to my blog I read my previous posts and roll my eyes knowing I thought that what I shot was pretty great at the time.  Next month I'll look at what I shot this month and laugh.  My husband and extended family constantly ask me when I'm going "pro".  I tell them I'm still learning.  From the outside it's snapping pictures and downloading them.  In reality it's lighting, composition, editing, business savy, advertising, taxes, insurance, equipment equipment equipment etc.  Yes this forum can be harsh espeically for a newbie, I've had my feelings hurt a few times as well but it is helpful to have honest critique. Keep pounding the pavement but be patient and realistic.  It's not going to happy overnight.  With six kids even if you don't go into business you are going to capture tons of candid and sweet memories, that alone is worth the price of a dslr.


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## tmjjk (May 22, 2012)

Yes different pic... Sorry I was running out the door and didn't realize I uploaded the wrong one... Thank you Elizabethysmom... I do have images that I thought were good last month that I already wouldn't show as my work today, learning everyday.  Thank you for your advice.


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## DiskoJoe (May 23, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> View attachment 9252Looking to go pro... need some advice.... please critique



Definitely to young to be a pro


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## amolitor (May 23, 2012)

Being a pro has almost nothing to do with your photography. It's about running a business.

I think your photographs both have potential. The first one was a contrasty hot mess, but what the hell, it has a lot going for it too. It's graphically very strong because of the big white and black masses in it. The kid's cute as hell, and by blowing out the skin you made it look smooth and wonderful. The eyes came out a little weird, for some reason. The second is great, except for the skin tones which someone else pointed out look pretty weird and unpleasant. It's a much more strictly correct composition, and I found it less ultimately interesting than the first one.

You're shooting entirely by instinct now, I suspect, rather than with very much formalism. Be ruthless in your editing, throw out pictures you don't like and try to figure out why you like the ones you do like. Make prints, and stick them where you can see them.

If you want to be professional, you don't need much in the way of photographic skills, but you *do* need a signature look, so figure out what you like, what you can reliably do, and try to turn that into something that people "out there" like and try to find a market for it. Also, you probably need some more gear, people love a photographer with a bunch of expensive crap (I am serious, here, even though I sound sarcastic -- either have a bunch of gear, or figure out how to run your business in such a way as people don't see your gear).


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## c.cloudwalker (May 23, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> View attachment 9252Looking to go pro... need some advice.... please critique




DON'T.

Learn photo first.

Either that or become a promateur.


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