# Another dissapointing review of the 7D



## inTempus (Nov 12, 2009)

Here's another disappointing review of the 7D.  This review includes sample pics shot from a Rebel (12mp), 7D (18mp) and 1DsMk3 (21mp).

They used more than one 7D as the results from the initial tests were so disappointing they thought perhaps they had a dud body.  Unfortunately the 2nd and 3rd bodies performed the same. 

The XSi out performed it in IQ at every turn... and of course the 1Ds3's images were far and away better.  

The Canon EOS 7D Review « Darwin Wiggett

Depressing to say the least.  If I were in the market today for a mid-level body and I didn't already have a bag full of Canon glass, I would go for the D300s.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2009)

Ouch!
the only thing that comes to my mind as a possible error in the test ( and I honestly don't know enogh about it to know if its a problem with this test or not) is that the RAW processing was, at some level incorrect. I recall that early 50D images were softer until the RAW processing (or maybe firmwire) was upgraded and then results improved overall and this could be what we are seeing here.

I would be very surprised if canon would allow a midrange body to be beaten so clearly by an entry level body - canon especailly since they are very aggressive with making sure that each level of their camera range has a distinct advantage over the lower teirs.


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## MrLogic (Nov 12, 2009)

The DPReview guys love it, though. Perhaps to make up for their (overly negative) 50D review.

Full review:

Canon EOS 7D Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2009)

Heh reading the comments to the blog there is quite abit of variety in responces. One weakness I can see in teh test is that it relies on unprocessed RAWS only with no mention of processed RAWs. I mention this as whilst a RAW shot should have "no incamera processing" this is in actuality a false fact and some sharpening and noise reduction will be performed - so I wonder if the rebel series camera is not simply applying more of this incamera sharpening to its RAW shot than the 7D is (or perhaps less incamera noise reduction) ?

Ever since the 50D I have worried that canons move toward more MP would have led to softer images as noise became harder to control without having to use stronger noise reduction (And thus more image quality loss in the finer details).

The other thing that is worrying is the mentions of diffration starting a lot earlier - f13 is where I like to work with macro, I would hate that with more MP the diffraction effect would start sooner and thus reduce the possible smaller apertures I could use for macro work.


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## inTempus (Nov 12, 2009)

I think the biggest problem is that other cameras with similar processing produce far better files.

As for sharpening, if shot in RAW there shouldn't be any sharpening applied.  That's done by DPP after the RAW is downloaded.  If it's disabled, there won't be any sharpening done.

The test is of the basic RAW files produced by the cameras.  That's what you have to work with right out of camera.  If you start off with a better file (more detail, better shadow detail, etc.) your end result should be better once processing is applied.

No matter how you slice it the RAW files from the 7D don't look much better than a G11 point and shoot.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2009)

inTempus said:


> As for sharpening, if shot in RAW there shouldn't be any sharpening applied.  That's done by DPP after the RAW is downloaded.  If it's disabled, there won't be any sharpening done.



Noise reduction should also not be applied but it is. IF they are willing to apply noise reduction then why not sharpening to. It something I would suspect more in the G11 though over the DSLRs (the sharpening).



inTempus said:


> The test is of the basic RAW files produced by the cameras.  That's what you have to work with right out of camera.  If you start off with a better file (more detail, better shadow detail, etc.) your end result should be better once processing is applied.
> 
> No matter how you slice it the RAW files from the 7D don't look much better than a G11 point and shoot.



I can't disagree against that save to say that some are saying that processed RAWs from the 7D are better looking than processed from the rebel series. The only other thing I have found is debates on teh best RAW processor to use - some are saying that canon DP is not the best to use and that better results are seen in the Lightroom 2.5 beta support for the camera.


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## MrLogic (Nov 12, 2009)

This pretty much sums it up, IMO:




> de Fresz Says:
> November 12, 2009 at 8:23 AM           You missed few quite important technical aspects in Your review, that are good to know, when writting review (and generaly for seroius amateur and pros).
> 
> First: pixel density (pixel size)
> ...




The Canon EOS 7D Review « Darwin Wiggett


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## NateWagner (Nov 12, 2009)

Also though, if the DPP they were using didn't have the appropriate camera profile it would screw things up wouldn't it? I mean, that explains to me why the DPreview was so much better (they at least had the beta version of the updated raw processor)


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2009)

MrLogic said:


> Finaly &#8211; IMHO decision to put 18 MPx on aps-c size sensor is driven by marketing, not common sense or real needs.
> Regards



I'm pretty sure there have been canon camera designers who have confirmed this very fact. That they even would like to push the ISO, dynamic range and such but that marketing says go for MP.
Hopefully the Nikon push for ISO will eventually lead Canon to follow - I think we are seeing the end of the MP war and the start of the ISO war - for which Nikon got the first shot at this time around.


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## MrLogic (Nov 12, 2009)

Someone did a diffraction "test" here:

7D diffraction test: good through f/16: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

_"Not a problem until after f/11, and even f/16 is still very usable." _Hmmm... can't say I agree with that assessment.


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## Overread (Nov 12, 2009)

Based on the linked diffraction test I would agree with the testers in that after f11 is where it starts showing up but that f16 is usable. Of course the blog review counteracts this assessment but then we have to decide if their review is complete enough. Certainly the results they have found are sounding a little strong on one side and whilst I'm not questioning their authenticity it might be that some difference in the processing software used (even with nothing done to the RAWs) might be responcible for this difference


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2009)

I at first thought that maybe Darwin had stopped the lens down too far, such as f/16 in the hay bales in the field test scene. But in the comments below, he stated that his personal copy of the Canon 45mm TS/E lens is best at f/5.6 to f/13 and that he used those apertures as well in his testing procedure. He also commented that the 7D did well on in-studio test shots, "like those done by dPreview", but that in distant and mid-distance scenes, like those that he tends to shoot, the 7D bodies, all three of them, looked mushy.

He used Live View for critical focusing...the tests, over and over, up-sampled and down-sampled, D300s versus 7D versus 1Ds Mark III versus Rebel versus D300s,ad nauseum--they all showed the same things. The comparisons between the Canon pocket cameras and the 7D were interesting.

From what I have read from highly technical types, diffraction seems to kick in on the 7D at around f/5, which seems reasonable, given that it has the smallest pixel size of any d-slr ever made, and the most-densely packed sensor as well; smaller apertures would likely show a LOSS of sharpness, so even f/5.6 would be affected by diffraction. I have also read that the 7D has some loss of color depth at base ISO, which is 100, and was optimized for higher ISO shooting. My D2x has a 12.3 MP sensor on 1.5x,and diffraction kicks in at f/5.6, so f/5 at 18MP seems perfectly in line with what I have read, namely that at f/5 (as in f/5.0) the 7D's image lose sharpness at smaller openings.

I personally think that perhaps the 7D's unusual sort of 4-color imager is causing some problems; Canon has some hard to explain secondary green-yellow color RGB +G-Y demosaicing of the RAW data off the sensor, which is as I understand it, how they are measuring the color of the light in their color-aware light metering. *Properly* converting the RAW sensor data using this RGB+G=Y system seems to be causing a maze artifacting pattern for the few RAW converters on the market capable of handling 7D RAW files.
I personally think the RAW conversion software for the 7D might not yet be optimized to deal with their weird new sensor's working method, and that better image quality will be possible in the future.

I wonder if maybe Darwin needed to have applied MUCH higher USM, like maybe 500% at  perhaps somewhere between .22 and .30 pixels Radius at 0 Threshold to overcome the strong anti-aliasing filter of the 7D.

But the fact remains--with that high-density 5.4 Megapixel per Square Centimeter sensor density, the LENS performance that I have seen in several reviews does not look good when using the 17-55 f/2.8 L EF-S lens,and frankly it does not look very good on the 24-105-L zoom either. Looking very closely at full-sized samples shot with the 17-55, I see a LOT of chromatic aberration problems and a slightly 'fuzzy' quality at the edges of most frames shot with the 17-55 f/2.8. With the premium,single focal length telephotos the bird guys are using, the 7D looks quite good, which is to be expected from a premium lens in the $7,000 price range.

The review is what it is. It's a two-person, practical, field test, involving three different 7D bodies, a top FF Canon body, a Nikon D300s, and some Canon P&S captures,and lots of cross-comparing. On landscapes. Using a pretty new camera, that uses a rather odd demosaicing system that "most" RAW converter software is not handling very well. And the sensor's pixel density is clearly beginning to factor into lens quality, and even lens f/stop in use. This camera seems to be pushing the boundaries quite hard...


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2009)

Here is another EOS 7D review

Canon EOS 7D Review « The World According to Roland

What is probably most disappointing is how significantly better EOS 5D MArk II images look when re-sampled and shrunk down to the same size as 7D images.

Also, he has a diffraction test that is better than the one referenced above from a dPreview user who photographed some book bindings. While images are always subject to personal impressions and prejudices when the images are 'close' to one another, I personally think I see diffraction setting in quite early in this test on the teddy bear; to me, the f/2.8 shot looks actually a tiny bit better than the f/8 shot. The f/8 shot is on the right hand side,and the f/2.8 shot crop is on the let hand side: I see slightly,and I mean ever so slightly better contrast in the f/2.8 capture. http://rolandlim.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/7d-f8vf2-8.jpg?w=500&h=800

Roland's review also has a good DPP versus Lightroom Beta 3 comparison, showing just how critical the RAW converter is.


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## IgsEMT (Nov 12, 2009)

WOW
well, b/n various things I've read on it, here, other forums and blogs, it is a camera of "flavor". Some people LOVE IT, others - not really.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 12, 2009)

I have two, no regrets. 

"We processed the photos in Canon&#8217;s DPP exactly the same with no sharpening or noise reduction."

Yes, and that'd have something to do with it. In the technical notes they noted how the AA filter is probably one of the strongest ever on a Canon body. Well, yeah, it really is. This can be corrected later with sharpening, and in my own processing I've noticed that I've had to apply quite a bit more sharpening to my 7D images over my 450D images. (Say, 75 on the sharpening slider instead of to 45.)

The weird colour rendition changes between the P&S and the 7D are a case of "duh, did you calibrate it?" Until you calibrate the camera body by creating a profile for it using a munsell colour card and something like Adobe's DNG Profile Editor, you're going to have some odd colour shifts happening. The software in-camera likely corrects for much of this on in-camera JPEGs; RAW files need to be fixed yourself.

I think Royce's comments at the end of that blog post are the most informative there, in terms of explaining WHY there are these differences. They look different, yes, but that means you need to process differently.

If what we're looking for here is apples-to-apples comparisons, I must agree, shoot JPEG. That may solve some of these oddities right off the bat. RAW is not really a hard-set image format; it's interpreted, and that interpretation can vary between programs, and how one should interpret the data to get the best image out of the RAW file will change from camera to camera. Remember everyone, Adobe is still in beta when it comes to 7D support. Profiling is still iffy (though AFAIK it works; at least well enough for me). When they get LR3 and the next version of ACR out, they might very well have figured out what to do to a 7D's RAW files to get the most out of them. $10 says there's some crafty engineer working on the problem right now.


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## Derrel (Nov 12, 2009)

The 7D was supposed to be a direct competitor for the Nikon D300, but then Nikon updated the D300 to the D300s. Here's a list of features, or rather, missing features in the 7D body. The thread is three pages long,and I was shocked to see that Canon STILL has not corrected some long standing problems with their controls/ergonomics. Like the fact that exposure compensation dialed in when the camera is in programmed mode reverts to baseline mode after every-single-frame-you-shoot!

Underwhelming 7D review from Dpreview [Page 1]: Nikon D300 - D100 Forum: Digital Photography Review

One of the things about the new dPreview official review of the 7D is that they list "four" (count 'em, four!) flaws with the camera. And they conveniently ignore that the camera's new focusing screen makes manual focusing almost impossible. As the reviewer points out, now that Amazon.com owns dPreview, the hard-hitting reviews Phil was famous for have disappeared,and the reviews are as the British say, "quite tepid". Amazon makes a huge amount of money selling cameras, so owning dPreview makes for a great way to funnel customers from the reviews right to Amazon.com


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## RyanLilly (Nov 12, 2009)

Derrel said:


> The 7D was supposed to be a direct competitor for the Nikon D300, but then Nikon updated the D300 to the D300s. Here's a list of features, or rather, missing features in the 7D body. The thread is three pages long,and I was shocked to see that Canon STILL has not corrected some long standing problems with their controls/ergonomics. Like the fact that exposure compensation dialed in when the camera is in programmed mode reverts to baseline mode after every-single-frame-you-shoot!
> 
> Underwhelming 7D review from Dpreview [Page 1]: Nikon D300 - D100 Forum: Digital Photography Review
> 
> One of the things about the new dPreview official review of the 7D is that they list "four" (count 'em, four!) flaws with the camera. And they conveniently ignore that the camera's new focusing screen makes manual focusing almost impossible. As the reviewer points out, now that Amazon.com owns dPreview, the hard-hitting reviews Phil was famous for have disappeared,and the reviews are as the British say, "quite tepid". Amazon makes a huge amount of money selling cameras, so owning dPreview makes for a great way to funnel customers from the reviews right to Amazon.com



That's a nice list of erroneous arguments; most in that list are not problems, they are simply different design choices between manufactures, "cannot exposure bracket in Manual"...Really?....Really? Its Manual for crying out loud! Anyway differences of opinion and design choices aside, I for one appreciate that DPreview uses a standardized set of metrics for reviewing cameras, making it possible to compare, in at least a controled test enviroment, a camera to it predicessors, and competitors.


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## DScience (Nov 12, 2009)

RyanLilly said:


> That's a nice list of erroneous arguments; most in that list are not problems, they are simply different design choices between manufactures, "cannot exposure bracket in Manual"...Really?....Really? Its Manual for crying out loud! Anyway differences of opinion and design choices aside, I for one appreciate that DPreview uses a standardized set of metrics for reviewing cameras, making it possible to compare, in at least a controled test enviroment, a camera to it predicessors, and competitors.



Sounds like you got a 7D, and are a little upset. :hug::


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## musicaleCA (Nov 12, 2009)

DScience said:


> RyanLilly said:
> 
> 
> > That's a nice list of erroneous arguments; most in that list are not problems, they are simply different design choices between manufactures, "cannot exposure bracket in Manual"...Really?....Really? Its Manual for crying out loud! Anyway differences of opinion and design choices aside, I for one appreciate that DPreview uses a standardized set of metrics for reviewing cameras, making it possible to compare, in at least a controled test enviroment, a camera to it predicessors, and competitors.
> ...



If you actually read those pages on DPreview, well, you might just agree. I have to agree that *a lot* of those "faults" in the 7D listed there are biases against how Canon cameras operate.



> *Canon is very far behind Nikon* as far as handling
> and control go. There really isn't any comparison; all they have is a couple
> of numbers that look better on paper.  They have nothing on us in handling, nothing at all.


That's pure bias. The interfaces for Nikon and Canon cameras are worlds apart. Some people are comfortable with one and not the other. I for one feel lost and confused using Nikon's interfaces, whereas Canon's were completely intuitive to me. What a lark.

A few things in particular about that list stuck out as particularly hilarious and misguided. I'd be happy to go through the entire list if someone asks though.



> Camera turns itself off on you


Yes? It turns off by itsownself! OMG! What a scandalous idea, to save power by having the camera go into a sleep mode when you aren't using it!  



> LCD panel blacked out when power off


Is this guy seriously suggesting that the camera's LCD display should be on, regardless of whether or not the power switch is set to on or off? Seriously?



> Cannot bracket flash exposure


Yes you can. :lmao: This is just a difference between the two systems. You set flash exposure bracketing on the flash unit itself, not the camera. Oi vey.



> Cannot use exposure bracketing if flash enabled


Patently untrue.



> Any flexible-program shift in P mode cancelled by every shutter release


Patently untrue.

I really don't think this guy knows what he's talking about.  I disagree RyanLilly. I think most of what that guy listed as cons are outright lies. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


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## battletone (Nov 12, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> Is this guy seriously suggesting that the camera's LCD display should be on, regardless of whether or not the power switch is set to on or off? Seriously?



I think it is referring to the top LCD.  That LCD takes the same amount of power as the old LCD watches...it will last a long time.   A Maxxum5000 film camera I have confused me when I got it recently with some other lenses because it never turns "off".

I enjoyed this from a long time user of both systems.  It talks about the top LCD too.  He is a Canon shooter since 1999, and was a Nikon shooter for decades before that.  He bought a full Nikon DSLR system to test out.  Must be nice to have that kind of income.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 13, 2009)

battletone said:


> musicaleCA said:
> 
> 
> > Is this guy seriously suggesting that the camera's LCD display should be on, regardless of whether or not the power switch is set to on or off? Seriously?
> ...



Ah, well still, I think that's a bit of an odd expectation; perhaps Garbz could chime in because he seems to know a heck of a lot more about electrical engineering than I do. My thinking would be that having that top display on all the time would require the camera to constantly access it's RAM that it uses to store all the data displayed there. If, by turning off that display, Canon's engineers can eke out a little more power from the battery by thus shutting off more of the camera's internals when you're not using it, kudos to them. In any case it's really a moot point; half-depress the shutter and you're good to go.


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## battletone (Nov 13, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> battletone said:
> 
> 
> > musicaleCA said:
> ...



It wouldn't be hard for it to take a snapshot of the current settings/data and just display that.  Those watches would last forever on those little coin batteries.

But in that link I put, the guy makes mention of looking at the memory card being inserted, battery remaining, the shots total and remaining, etc.  I bet that full color 3" LCD on the back of my XSi uses about as much power just being turned on once to see that info than the Nikons top LCD uses in a month of staying on all the time.


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## Derrel (Nov 13, 2009)

Well, seriously, the 7D, as a D300s competitor, lacks a lot of functionality that Nikon's D300 has had for two years. I will not respond directly to Ryan Lilly's angry outburst--but he does sound like a Canon user who might be a bit irked to hear about his favored brand's inability to handle or address pretty simple engineering problems.

For example: ONE, single white balance pre-set; competition has 4 user-definable pre-sets,and has for some time. Cannot assign spot/center/matrix,or white balance measuring to a single button like Nikon's user-definable "Func" button. This is a big missing feature of the 7D.

The most SERIOUS, real problem is the 7D's inability to make auto-exposure lock "sticky". The camera also cannot bracket exposures in Manual mode--this is for HDR use,and is a serious,glaring omission. Flexible program shift entered by the user goes BACK TO THE IDIOT mode after every shutter release--this is in direct contrast to Nikon, and was so odd I had to verify this myself. This negates the ability to use flexible program mode like a grown-up photographer!

No AUTO-ISO in manual mode! One area where Canon serious,seriously lags behind Nikon. Nikon allows you to program a set shutter speed and set f/stop in Manual mode, so that you can get the shutter speed you NEED for motion stopping ability and the aperture you WANT for depth of field control,and then the Nikon will adjust the ISO up and down to achieve the right exposure with the parameters YOU have set....Canon has not figured out how to even come close to this system. Pentax has though. And Nikon.

No bracketing of flash exposures. Can not use the auto exposure lock button in manual metering mode--how very,very 1970's. Exposure bracketing limited to 3 shots--not very HDR friendly. Exposure bracketing limited to 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments, and only 3 shots....seriously, NOT enough latitude or difference to make bracketing worthwhile in many situations. And exposure bracketing can not be done in a manual exposure mode? Wow--it's like a big $1700 Point and Shoot. A LOT of advanced features are simply not in this camera.

Canon has once again decided to place a HUGE feature gap between its 1-series bodies and its top pro-sumer body. Canon has since the original Rebel, deliberately crippled its lower end cameras to place them at a disadvantage compared with the higher-end cameras. Does anybody recall the famous "Russian hack" that unlocked all the deliberately crippled features in the original Rebel, which made it much more competitive with the 10D body and its feature set? The original Rebel was crippled, very badly, compared with the both the EOS 10D and the Nikon D70, and as a result, the 10D and the Nikon D70 sold much better.

It's pretty hard to argue against the fact that the D300 and D300s have many control features and functions that the 7D lacks. It doesn't matter much anyway-- Nikon users will buy Nikons and Canon users will buy Canons. People who switch from one brand to another can be lobbied by people who care to do so. I own both Canon and Nikon cameras. I think the 7D is missing a lot of controls I would like to have, but for many people it would be a perfectly fine camera. It is a step up over the 40D and 50D bodies and the Rebel series. But Canon makes it clear it is *not* going to include the 1-series types of controls, or compete directly with Nikon's D300s. Canon is doing the same thing with the 5D-II and Nikon's D700 camera--deliberately trying to compete with a simpler body, but a higher MP count sensor. At a slightly lower price. So far, it's working.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 13, 2009)

Derrel said:


> For example: ONE, single white balance pre-set; competition has 4 user-definable pre-sets,and has for some time. Cannot assign spot/center/matrix,or white balance measuring to a single button like Nikon's user-definable "Func" button. This is a big missing feature of the 7D.



Yup, that much is true. Can't explain-away the WB presets, or lack thereof. Then again, shooting RAW, it's generally a moot point.

That said, changing metering mode is very, very quick; there's a dedicated button for it, and then just flip a dial. Really, why would I want to put it on another button? I suppose just cycling through them would be shiny, but that saves me one button press, and would hardly be the difference between making a shot and not (I'm assuming that one has the forethought to plan ahead and choose the right settings before snapping the shutter).



Derrel said:


> The most SERIOUS, real problem is the 7D's inability to make auto-exposure lock "sticky".



Wait, what exactly are you talking about? Please very clearly describe what sort of functionality you mean by "sticky". If it is what I think it is, the 7D can do it.



Derrel said:


> The camera also cannot bracket exposures in Manual mode--this is for HDR use,and is a serious,glaring omission.



Point, but, meh. I don't see that as the seriously terrifying omission you seem to see it as. Flip the dial three notches, snap, three, snap, three, snap. Slower, cruder, mildly annoying, but that can hardly be called a deal-breaker, can it?



Derrel said:


> Flexible program shift entered by the user goes BACK TO THE IDIOT mode after every shutter release--this is in direct contrast to Nikon, and was so odd I had to verify this myself. This negates the ability to use flexible program mode like a grown-up photographer!



Erm...no. If you're talking about exposure compensation, than no, no it doesn't. If you're talking about The ratio between f-stop and shutter-speed, that doesn't change either. This is in P mode that I'm referring to.



Derrel said:


> No AUTO-ISO in manual mode! One area where Canon serious,seriously lags behind Nikon. Nikon allows you to program a set shutter speed and set f/stop in Manual mode, so that you can get the shutter speed you NEED for motion stopping ability and the aperture you WANT for depth of field control,and then the Nikon will adjust the ISO up and down to achieve the right exposure with the parameters YOU have set....Canon has not figured out how to even come close to this system. Pentax has though. And Nikon.



That's an absolute fallacy, and I think it's amusing that you bought it. You can set auto ISO while in manual mode on my 7D, no problem. What the shmick are you talking about Derrel?



Derrel said:


> No bracketing of flash exposures. Can not use the auto exposure lock button in manual metering mode



A I said above, you can bracket flash exposures, and that's done with an external flash. It's a difference between systems. As for the AE-Lock button dieing in M, could you explain jusy WHY that's a bad thing? I can rarely think of situations where I use AE-Lock, let aong need it in manual.


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## Derrel (Nov 13, 2009)

White balance pre-sets are useful for professional work where mixed lighting is encountered, or when one wants to shoot mixed tungsten + flash (wedding) or wants a specific white balance, like a Uni-White Balance, or a specific shade white balance. Shooting in RAW is fine, but unless you set an accurate WB beforehand, the demosaicing of the RAW data will be done using false color information. For those on deadline, or who shoot JPEG, or who do much critical work involving mixed lighting sources, having 4 custom White Balances makes sense....that's why other camera makers have more than "one" pre-set. Think bride's dressing area-church-reception hall-outdoors. Or 1/4 CTO gel + Tungsten. 4 versus 1 pre-set. Again, all software, no extra cost--why can't Canon use a few bytes to implement 4?

Sticky...no...check page three of the thread...Nikon has a 4-option setup...so no, you're not thinking of what the post was discussing.

No bracketing in Manual mode is a "meh"? The 1Ds-Mk III has 2,3,5,and 7 shot bracketing +/- 3EV in 1/3 or 1/2 stops. The Nikon D300 has bracketing in 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 1-stop bracketing increments, over a 5-EV value range. Covered in anywhere from 2 to 9 frames. The 7D offers 2- or 3-frame brackets, over +/- 2EV, in 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments. Uh, meh is right--that's not bracketing, that is exposure micro-adjustment. There's a new type of photography called HDR, derived from the older exposure blending--which is why Nikon is going with bracketing that spans as many as NINE frames, and FIVE f/stops worth of difference. There is often not time to flip the dial and make manual adjustments--for those who do a lot of HDR photography, Nikon has become the clear leader. Manuallly moving dials and knobs slows down the process and can move the camera or allow too much subject movement in a 10-second process done all manually, when with a camera like a D300, the entire sequence can be shot in roughly .5 to 1.2 seconds. It is simple engineering, all done in software, but yet Canon cannot figure out how to include this feature? Or do they want you to buy a 1Ds-III, or a Nikon?

Flexible program shift is NOT exposure compensation. Confused much by the terminology? Flexible Program is "P" in Canon-speak. Camera picks an aperture and shutter speed,and YOU manually, with forethought, turn the wheel to set a different, but equivalent exposure setting--to get a slower or faster shutter speed. Every time the light meter switches off, Canon bodies like the EOS 5D and the 20-30-40-50D, all shift back to the DEFAULT, or baseline suggested value selected by the camera, ignoring the Program SHIFT aspect that the shooter has set himself. So, over a 10-minute or a 10-hour shooting session, a Canon will default to the factory program every single time the meter times out; a Nikon will remember the user's settings for hours, or all day, until the power switch is flipped to OFF. The 7D acts like a point and shoot, always trying to override the Program Shift back to fatory determined defaults.

Why is this important you ask? Recall the fellow poo-pooing that the 7D goes to SLEEP. Oh, yeah that guy was you! Try remote-mounting your 7D and set the shutter speed in Program mode to the highest shutter speed possible with a given lens, say 1/4000 at f/4 at ISO 1000 for a track meet. Then, remote mount the camera. Every time the 7D goes to sleep, YOUR input will be disregarded, and the camera will revert to its basic, dumb programming,which favors a modest relationship between speed and f/stop. It'll be sweet to download the Program shots the 7D elected to expose at its default of 1/500 second at f/11. Same exposure as f/4 at 1/4000 second--totally equivalent exposure values,right?  "Meh," indeed. A Nikon will not do that--it will honor the Program Shift as it was entered. All day long, even if the camera meter switches off. Remember, the 7D is aimed at sports/nature shooters...but its acting like a Point and Shoot and overriding the input of the photographer. But so have the 5D and 10D thru 50D on this same,exact metering mode, Flexible Program--which is different from the Green Box or 'Idiot' mode, which is NOT user-shiftable.

Changing metering mode, or programming any number of functions to a body-mounted button called the FUNC button is something Nikon premiered in 2004. Allowing the photographer to program the FUNC button is invaluable for a serious user: I have my D2x mode set to switch from 1.5x mode to 2.0 or High Speed Crop mode with the press of the FUNC button. See, the idea is that there is a FUNC button that the USER can program for INSTANT, even in-the-dark control, to set the camera up to do a certain thing. Nikon understands that dedicated buttons and menus are nice. Canon has been pushing that nifty Direct Print Button for quite a while. It's not a case of cycling through modes, which is a Canon user's concept of how a camera ought to function--it's a matter of having the *ability* to put whatever a particular user determines is the most-critical feature setup at one's fingertip. That is why Nikon uses a FUNC button that each user can program, to put a critical adjustment at the fingertips for various jobs. The Func button is pressed with the right middle finger while the camera is at eye level. One design ethos respects the shooter, the other sees him as end-user.

Does the 7D have four, user-configurable shooting banks, with ALL settings user-configurable, so the camera can be pre-adjusted for four widely disparate shooting conditions? Nikon uses that system. Minolta's 7D had a top-deck mounted 3-position shifter knob that controlled what Nikon would call Exposure Settings Banks. Great concept. Easy enough to execute.

See, the 7D is ostensibly targeting Nikon's high-end APS-C cameras and is claiming to be a "pro" camera, yet it lacks a lot of the controls other pro cameras have. And MOST of this stuff could be done in software!

Why should flash bracketing be done controlled by the camera? Uh, that idea came from Nikon when they invented off-camera, multiple speedlight photography with their CLS sytem. Nikon figures that controlling the flash should be done by the camera body,and not at the flash itself, since the flash might be mounted off-camera or on a light stand 13 feet in the air. Canon thinks flash bracketing adjustment ought to be on the flash, I guess.
After all, who would remote mount a flash and want to control the flash's exposure from the camera position? Meh...

Seriously..the two camera companies have very,very different control methods. If you want to read the 2nd and third pages of the thread I referenced, the answers are in there. Check out the Program Shift feature on your 7D and get back to me if the behavior of my 5D and my 20D is different, if you would please.


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## Garbz (Nov 13, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> Ah, well still, I think that's a bit of an odd expectation; perhaps Garbz could chime in because he seems to know a heck of a lot more about electrical engineering than I do. My thinking would be that having that top display on all the time would require the camera to constantly access it's RAM that it uses to store all the data displayed there. If, by turning off that display, Canon's engineers can eke out a little more power from the battery by thus shutting off more of the camera's internals when you're not using it, kudos to them.



battletone is right. The LCD on the top uses next to no power. It's a very very simple low power device, just like the watches which run on a tiny battery for several years at a time. Also microcontrollers often enter a low power sleep mode without state changing any of their outputs, patiently waiting for an interrupt signal (like half pressing the shutter). In this low power mode all power hungry components are shut down, such as internal clocks, and unused ports. Modern microcontrollers in sleep mode draw such little power that the device's run time is based on the shelf life of the batteries. 

In the case of the sleep mode in the camera, the usual approach is to only turn off the power hungry components, such as focus, meters, and the backlit LCDs. In the case of the Nikon, in sleep mode you can see all the settings of the camera on the top LCD, except for the aperture and shutter, since those will not be current because the light meter is turned off. I have no hard data on the battery life of sleep mode, but I did once take a picture and forget to turn off the camera, and after 2 weeks, one of the two batteries was about half drained (I don't know where it started but I guess you should get a months idle time out of a battery).


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## battletone (Nov 13, 2009)

Derrel said:


> Flexible program shift is NOT exposure compensation. Confused much by the terminology? Flexible Program is "P" in Canon-speak. Camera picks an aperture and shutter speed,and YOU manually, with forethought, turn the wheel to set a different, but equivalent exposure setting--to get a slower or faster shutter speed. Every time the light meter switches off, Canon bodies like the EOS 5D and the 20-30-40-50D, all shift back to the DEFAULT, or baseline suggested value selected by the camera, ignoring the Program SHIFT aspect that the shooter has set himself. So, over a 10-minute or a 10-hour shooting session, a Canon will default to the factory program every single time the meter times out; a Nikon will remember the user's settings for hours, or all day, until the power switch is flipped to OFF. The 7D acts like a point and shoot, always trying to override the Program Shift back to fatory determined defaults.
> 
> Why is this important you ask? Recall the fellow poo-pooing that the 7D goes to SLEEP. Oh, yeah that guy was you! Try remote-mounting your 7D and set the shutter speed in Program mode to the highest shutter speed possible with a given lens, say 1/4000 at f/4 at ISO 1000 for a track meet. Then, remote mount the camera. Every time the 7D goes to sleep, YOUR input will be disregarded, and the camera will revert to its basic, dumb programming,which favors a modest relationship between speed and f/stop. It'll be sweet to download the Program shots the 7D elected to expose at its default of 1/500 second at f/11. Same exposure as f/4 at 1/4000 second--totally equivalent exposure values,right?  "Meh," indeed. A Nikon will not do that--it will honor the Program Shift as it was entered. All day long, even if the camera meter switches off. Remember, the 7D is aimed at sports/nature shooters...but its acting like a Point and Shoot and overriding the input of the photographer. But so have the 5D and 10D thru 50D on this same,exact metering mode, Flexible Program--which is different from the Green Box or 'Idiot' mode, which is NOT user-shiftable.



I just have to ask....what is it doing that is different from using Shutter Priority with auto w/b, auto ISO (my XSi has auto ISO), etc?


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## icassell (Nov 13, 2009)

Derrel said:


> . And they conveniently ignore that the camera's new focusing screen makes manual focusing almost impossible.



I dunno.  I can manually focus on mine.  It doesn't seem any more difficult than my 30D.  On the other hand, I DO miss the split screens from my 35mm days ... maybe Rachel Katz will come up with one for the 7D too (there is one available for the older ones).


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## gsgary (Nov 13, 2009)

This is what a top UK pro mag has to say

1. The good news for potential buyers of the 7D is that image quality is impressive for a camera in the price bracket

2. Even after just a short period of using the 7D it becomes abundantly clear that it's features are designed to suit the experienced and pro photographer

3. Owners of 1D series DSLRs should snap this up as a back up or use it as a second DSLR when there isn't time to swap lenses

4. I always like to process my Raw files in Capture pro 4 however , because this is a new camera there isn't an update for it yet so it is a little tricky to know how good the 7D's images are compared to other cameras

8 marks out of 10


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## icassell (Nov 13, 2009)

gsgary said:


> 4. I always like to process my Raw files in Capture pro 4 however , because this is a new camera there isn't an update for it yet so it is a little tricky to know how good the 7D's images are compared to other cameras
> 
> 8 marks out of 10




I sometimes use Capture One 4 too, but I have a funny feeling there won't be a 7D update as Phase One has just come out with Capture One 5 ...


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## icassell (Nov 13, 2009)

Sigh .... just got this from Phase One

Ian-

We will not be upgrading version 4 any longer.
You will need to purchase the upgrade to version 5.
You can do so from our website (E Shop) for $99.00.
You may also choose to download Capture One 5 and run it in trial mode for 30 days to see if the fee is something you'd like to spend.

Kind Regards
Phase One Support


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## musicaleCA (Nov 13, 2009)

Garbz said:


> musicaleCA said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, well still, I think that's a bit of an odd expectation; perhaps Garbz could chime in because he seems to know a heck of a lot more about electrical engineering than I do. My thinking would be that having that top display on all the time would require the camera to constantly access it's RAM that it uses to store all the data displayed there. If, by turning off that display, Canon's engineers can eke out a little more power from the battery by thus shutting off more of the camera's internals when you're not using it, kudos to them.
> ...



Thanks Garbz. I figured there had to be some sort of catch to it (the aperture and shutter not being displayed). Cool. I can see where Nikon users are coming from now...but still...half-depress the shutter...come'on guys, is that *really* so hard?  



Derrel said:


> White balance pre-sets are useful for professional work where mixed lighting is encountered, or when one wants to shoot mixed tungsten + flash (wedding) or wants a specific white balance, like a Uni-White Balance...<so on ad nauseum>



Wow. I admitted that this was a lacking feature in my previous post, and yet you still went on a rant about it.



Derrel said:


> Sticky...no...check page three of the thread...Nikon has a 4-option setup...so no, you're not thinking of what the post was discussing.



Ah. That. In this case Tom is showing, once again, that he hasn't done nearly enough reading or used the 7D enough to provide such a review with accuracy. To perform the function he's talking about on page three of that thread, you simply press the star-shaped button the on back of the camera (unless you assigned it to something else, which you can do on the 7D rather easily). So, I guess I actually *was* thinking about what was being discussed, and you just decided to make up my mind for me. :lmao:



Derrel said:


> There's a new type of photography called HDR, derived from the older exposure blending--which is why Nikon is going with bracketing that spans as many as NINE frames, and FIVE f/stops worth of difference.



WTF REALLY? I had NO idea? What's this HDR stuff?

I would prefer if you presumed that I had just a little bit more intelligence when it comes to photography. Actually, I'm sure a lot of people on this forum would appreciate it if you wrote to them as peers rather than your lessers by default.

For me, it's definitely a "meh" issue because I don't do a lot of HDR. If I want to, I'll do it by figuring out the dynamic range of the scene and shooting in one-stop increments in between. I can calculate that in my head, separate from the camera. (Though I'll admit, having PhotoBuddy makes the whole thing a lot easier.  )



Derrel said:


> Flexible program shift is NOT exposure compensation. Confused much by the terminology? Flexible Program is "P" in Canon-speak.



Actually, no, I'm not confused by the terminology, and again I don't appreciate your condescending attitude:



musicaleCA said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Flexible program shift entered by the user goes BACK TO THE IDIOT mode *after every shutter release*--this is in direct contrast to Nikon, and was so odd I had to verify this myself. This negates the ability to use flexible program mode like a grown-up photographer!
> ...



I'm right. Period. I have a 7D body right here to prove it. That little shift you make between shutter speed and f-stop doesn't change right after you release the shutter. As for that data getting dumped when the metering shuts off, which *does* happen (but this fact doesn't make the comments by Tom in that little article any less fallacious), well I ought to ask why the heck you're using P in the studio anyway for such long shoots? Switch to Av, Tv, or M, and be done with it. Or at least that's my thinking. Perhaps that's why I haven't seen this as a problem at allI rarely, if ever, touch P.



Derrel said:


> Why is this important you ask? Recall the fellow poo-pooing that the 7D goes to SLEEP. Oh, yeah that guy was you!



Huh? You're putting words in my mouth now, Derrel? That's low.



Derrel said:


> Try remote-mounting your 7D and set the shutter speed in Program mode to the highest shutter speed possible with a given lens, say 1/4000 at f/4 at ISO 1000 for a track meet. Then, remote mount the camera. Every time the 7D goes to sleep, YOUR input will be disregarded, and the camera will revert to its basic, dumb programming,which favors a modest relationship between speed and f/stop. It'll be sweet to download the Program shots the 7D elected to expose at its default of 1/500 second at f/11.



No, I think I'll try that with Tv instead. You're arguing about what is ultimately a design choice. Can you think of a reason, perhaps, why Canon would make the assumption that the photographers they're targeting wouldn't use P often, or at all, and instead wish to appeal to different consumers with P mode? Remember, both Canon and Nikon are in this for the money; they have to make sales, and the more the better.



Derrel said:


> Same exposure as f/4 at 1/4000 second--totally equivalent exposure values,right?  "Meh," indeed.



Try to be less offensive in your posts. It's not productive and only cultivates animosity.



Derrel said:


> Does the 7D have four, user-configurable shooting banks, with ALL settings user-configurable, so the camera can be pre-adjusted for four widely disparate shooting conditions? Nikon uses that system. Minolta's 7D had a top-deck mounted 3-position shifter knob that controlled what Nikon would call Exposure Settings Banks. Great concept. Easy enough to execute.



No. It has three, not four. Ah well. Too bad; perhaps we should all accuse Canon of being idiots because they didn't include four of them. To be honest I haven't bothered figuring them out. I haven't had much use for them, as I generally just estimate my exposure on the way using M, Av, or Tv, and fine-tune on location.



Derrel said:


> Why should flash bracketing be done controlled by the camera? Uh, that idea came from Nikon when they invented off-camera, multiple speedlight photography with their CLS sytem. Nikon figures that controlling the flash should be done by the camera body,and not at the flash itself, since the flash might be mounted off-camera or on a light stand 13 feet in the air. Canon thinks flash bracketing adjustment ought to be on the flash, I guess.
> After all, who would remote mount a flash and want to control the flash's exposure from the camera position? Meh...



Ignoring the last comment, which is certainly a misguided attempt to be inflammatory and more argumentative than is necessary, good point. In this case, I would suggest giving Canon some time. The 7D is their first venture into a CLS-like system; they're bound to miss a few things on the first attempt.



Derrel said:


> Seriously..the two camera companies have very,very different control methods. If you want to read the 2nd and third pages of the thread I referenced, the answers are in there. Check out the Program Shift feature on your 7D and get back to me if the behavior of my 5D and my 20D is different, if you would please.



Well now there's the most enlightened thing you've said in that whole post! They *do* have very different control schemes, and in that it's much like comparing apples-to-oranges and wanting your apples to be citrus in flavour, because they're both fruits and spherical. Nikon users can complain all they want about the insanity of the 7D's controls and how they're laid out, but if it works for the person behind the camera, then it works. They'll be taking the shot while the other is busy telling them how terrible a piece of equipment it is that their trying to take said shot with. :lmao:


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## MrLogic (Nov 13, 2009)

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Interesting post on the Fred Miranda forums:



> Thank you Cameron, for bringing up a good subject.
> 
> I've seen lots of 7D's producing pictures that would make very good A3 prints, but I've also seen quite a few that have "maze"-effects strong enough to kill pixel-level fine detail if the detail isn't high-contrast - these cameras need to be down-sampled quite a lot to give perfectly sharp results.
> 
> ...


Canon EOS 7D Master thread - FM Forums
[/FONT]


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## cfusionpm (Nov 14, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> Actually, I'm sure a lot of people on this forum would appreciate it if you wrote to them as peers rather than your lessers by default.


^ Just thought I'd separate this out from the rest of the post in case others missed it.


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## battletone (Nov 14, 2009)

I'd still like to hear what the purpose of P mode and setting the shutter speed is.  Whats the difference between Shutter Priority?


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## MrLogic (Nov 16, 2009)

A great Fake Chuck Westfall rant: "7D Reviews: **** are happen!"

*http://tiny.cc/cNBYj*

^ Pure comedy.


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## Garbz (Nov 17, 2009)

battletone said:


> I'd still like to hear what the purpose of P mode and setting the shutter speed is.  Whats the difference between Shutter Priority?



P kind of weighs shutter against aperture. Once the shutter gets higher it stops down the lens assuming you want a bit more depth of field. 

It is about the only function that goes completely unused on my camera, because it is quite simply complete crock! The day I give up control over either shutter, or aperture (composition), or both at once, is the day I may as well not have bought an SLR in the first place.


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## inTempus (Nov 17, 2009)

Garbz said:


> It is about the only function that goes completely unused on my camera, because it is quite simply complete crock! The day I give up control over either shutter, or aperture (composition), or both at once, is the day I may as well not have bought an SLR in the first place.


+1

If I wanted a point and shoot, I would have bought one and saved myself about $13k.


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## PhotoXopher (Nov 17, 2009)

battletone said:


> I'd still like to hear what the purpose of P mode and setting the shutter speed is.  Whats the difference between Shutter Priority?



P Mode/Programmed Auto
Maintains proper exposure regardless of what values change... in other words, if you adjust it the aperture and shutter speed adjust together.

Shutter Priority
Lets you choose the shutter speed while adjusting the aperture to the proper exposure.

Aperture Priority
Lets you choose the aperture while adjusting the shutter speed to proper exposure.

The difference here is 'proper exposure' vs 'creative exposure'. What the camera 'thinks' is the proper exposure might not be what you're after. Take the sunrise and sunset for example, I'd be willing to bet without exposure compensation that any of these modes will really dull a beautiful scene.

That said, you can still use modes like PSAM with exposure compensation and do essentially the same thing, saving time in the process.

Hmmm... Sorry, I guess this doesn't have anything to do with the 7D directly


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## battletone (Nov 17, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> P Mode/Programmed Auto
> Maintains proper exposure regardless of what values change... in other words, if you adjust it the aperture and shutter speed adjust together.
> 
> Shutter Priority
> ...



But in both cases of setting the shutter the camera is auto selecting the aperture.  The only thing different that I can tell from playing with this is that the camera in P won't let you go outside of what it deems to be a proper exposure?
That clears that up.



Garbz said:


> It is about the only function that goes completely unused on my camera, because it is quite simply complete crock! The day I give up control over either shutter, or aperture (composition), or both at once, is the day I may as well not have bought an SLR in the first place.


This might sound stupid, but until reading this thread didn't even realize I could change the shutter/aperture in P mode.  :blushing:  I just looked at it as a Green Box mode without a flash and where I could select my ISO.


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## Garbz (Nov 18, 2009)

Lets put it this way. If you're actually selecting a shutter speed, or an aperture value, then you shouldn't be in P mode to begin with.

It is an idiotbox mode.


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## MrLogic (Nov 20, 2009)

A retort to the claims made by Wiggett:

Canon 7D worse than Canon Rebel XSI? | Pro Photo Home


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## musicaleCA (Nov 20, 2009)

MrLogic said:


> A retort to the claims made by Wiggett:
> 
> Canon 7D worse than Canon Rebel XSI? | Pro Photo Home



Wooo! Sanity! :lmao:


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## inTempus (Nov 20, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> MrLogic said:
> 
> 
> > A retort to the claims made by Wiggett:
> ...


I keep seeing vast improvements in RAW processing by Capture One Pro.  $400... but man, not only does it seem to do a better job than ACR or Lightroom, it has tons more features than Lightroom.

As for the muddy or mushy images, the trees look equally bad in the review above.  At least the 7D doesn't look worse in that review. But I would still expect the 7D to blow the doors off the Rebel given the price difference - much like the 5D excels at sharpness over the 7D.

The other images appear to give a slight advantage to the 7D, especially the shots of the white bag.


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## icassell (Nov 20, 2009)

I have Capture One 4 and have been debating upgrading it to version 5 (upgrade cost of $99).  I almost never use 4 in favor of ACR and wasn't going to bother but, with my 7D, now I'm considering it.  I'll wait until the ACR upgrade for 7D comes out to see.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 20, 2009)

inTempus said:


> musicaleCA said:
> 
> 
> > MrLogic said:
> ...



I thing that's where the whole sensor out-resolving the lens problem is kicking in. The 5D will certainly be sharper, because the pixel pitch is greater. But alas, I think we all kinda knew this already.

At Derrel: 

Hey, if you would like to explain to us all the reasoning for using P mode, I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear it. A forum is about learning, after all, but learning requires discussion, and challenging other's arguments. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being a know-it-all or snarky, but what I really want is an answer as to *why* you say certain things. You said that DoF was different between the viewfinder and the final image. That seems very odd to me for the actual DoF to change between the two. So I challenge why you say so. If I don't ask, how am I to learn anything new? (The reasoning behind the DoF change still confuses me a bit, in terms of the actual physics/optics behind it. But I wonder if this f-stop equivalency is being used to describe&#8212;in rough terms every photographer can understand&#8212;something very different. I think I caught a whiff of that when you mentioned that the focusing screen can reduce contrast. *That* makes complete sense to me and certainly could explain why manual focusing is more prone to inaccuracy on the 7D.)

As for P mode, well, from my PoV I haven't seen the point. If I want to a set shutter speed, I'll set the camera to Tv and let the safety shift feature lower the shutter speed if it must to get a proper exposure by changing the aperture or ISO (assuming I leave it on auto ISO as well). It's an open forum, and you have some justification or reasoning for using P, so let's hear it. Perhaps we can all be enlightened.

However, I gather you've blocked my comments since I can't simply PM this. Ah well. Regardless of what you may think of me, we know who has the more open mind, yes?


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## Joves (Nov 20, 2009)

Garbz said:


> Lets put it this way. If you're actually selecting a shutter speed, or an aperture value, then you shouldn't be in P mode to begin with.
> 
> It is an idiotbox mode.


  I agree it might as well have a green box on it. This whole thread has been very entertaining.  The only thing I have been lacking is the .


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## Overread (Nov 21, 2009)

> I bought a Canon 7D for myself. It will be my new main camera body, and I'll keep the 1DsIII as second body



Just to throw something else into the mix this is a quote from Juza ( Juza Nature Photography ). Though we don't have the answers as to the why yet, it will be interesting to read his views and the reason for his choice.


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## RyanLilly (Nov 21, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > musicaleCA said:
> ...



Thank you for being humble and eloquently stating your questions, I'm sure most people here appreciate your efforts to clear the air and keep the discussion on track. I too am confused on the viewfinder DOF, so I'm off to do some research.


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