# Need advice on beginning first year



## kitkatdubs

For those veterans in the business, what was your first year actually charging like? Was it slow? Did it take a long time to build up a consistent client base? I just launched my website in the Bay Area. My husband did some marketing- got 30 clicks to my website and only two inquires. Any advice for a newbie starting out? I've been working for free for the past 9 months building up my portfolio.
Here's a link to my website! Any feedback is welcome!!!

www.kaitlynrosephotography.com


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## calamityjane

You won't break even over a year so don't expect to. And please don't work for free - you damage the entire photography business when you do that.


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## manaheim

Don't work for free.
90% of a photography business is BUSINESS.
10% or less is the actual photography.
The average salary for a photographer is 25K. You can quite literally be more successful and make more money working 32 hours a week at McDonald's.
You are one of about 80 billion people trying to start a business in photography.  Certainly, try like hell to be successful, but do not delude yourself into thinking that you're 30 clicks ... or even 3,000 clicks away from success.


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## KmH

$25,000 is close to the low end ($21,000 a year), but that is right where a lot of retail photographers are - the low end.
Once established and having a good, broad, and solid repeat customer base a retail photographer having a _very_ well run retail studio can make substantially more.

Fewer than 15% of professional photographers make more than $50,000 a year. Most of those making more than $50,000 a year have their business in a major city that has a high demand for a photographer services - Top 10, in order - NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose.

There is a lot of competition, it takes lots of marketing, lots of self-promotion, lots of networking, and a fair measure of luck to get established.


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## Derrel

I just posted this in this same sub-forumn, to abee's thread about her first year. I thought it might be something to consider for your business. I looked through your site tonight, so I have a good idea of who you are, saw your portfolio, site, and prices. Keep in mind--this post was written for a different photographer, but both of you are just starting out, and working in the same genre--child and family photography. Good luck in the new business!
******

This is a pretty crowded genre, with many,many low-priced practitioners and it is a very well-understood genre, with a huge number of people offering very much close to identical work--thanks to Flickr, 500px, Facebook, Pinterest, and so on, and so the customers have a very good idea of what they want their baby pics to look like, and they have the ability to on-line shop and compare. My suggestion: do NOT put prices on your web site, which will eliminate people shopping your site just based on price: get them to call you on the telephone, where you'd better be able to hook them, and book them.

Over the last couple of years, I've perused maybe sixty such people' sites. and most have prices on them, very detailed prices. The problem is, the majority of the site owners/photographers have work that does not line up with the prices they have, it seems, copied from local competitors. SO--why would anybody book anything when the work is not as good as the work of a better, but identically-priced competitor?

Unless your work is simply **outstanding**, you will be beaten out for booking by people who have a better site, or better portfolio, or better sales materials. Ergo...SKIP the prices, and get people to CALL YOU, so you can hook 'em and book 'em.


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## beagle100

calamityjane said:


> You won't break even over a year so don't expect to. And please don't work for free - you damage the entire photography business when you do that.



dammit, I've now damaged the entire photography business
Maybe I'll go do some damage in the golfing business this weekend


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## vintagesnaps

The thing about free photo sessions is that people are probably glad to have just about anything they're given for free. To charge I think work needs to be at the same skill level as established pros in the area to charge the going rate and be competitive.

What I see on your site is that you have good ideas but I see inconsistency in exposure/white balance, issues in framing (cutting people off), etc. I think it helps to try to notice details before you release the shutter. There are some lovely photos, and I think it could help to make sure make sure you're getting what you want in the picture every time and keep practicing technical skills like getting proper exposures to support your vision.

As far as marketing you could try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA and watch for webinars etc. They also provide info. on licensing, pricing, contracts, etc.


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## KC1

It's rare for a business to be in the black after a year, most are in the red for 2-3 years after opening, and many don't get into the black for the first 4 years.
If you are still losing money after 5 years, you need to re-evaluate or close shop.
The SBA allows you to be in the red for the first 4 years when they provide funding for a start up, but they will expect loan payments to commence in the 5th year.


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## KmH

IRS considerations related to if the IRS will consider your endeavor a business or a hobby.



> . . . The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year . . .
> . . . If an activity is not for profit, losses from that activity may not be used to offset other income. . .
> For further information: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p535.pdf



Countless people have started what they considered a business, taken federal income tax deductions related to that business, not made a profit in 3 of the last 5 years, and had the IRS classify their endeavor a hobby. At that point the IRS disallows deductions taken in prior years as business deductions.
With the notification those deductions have been disallowed is a bill for back taxes now owed.

The moral of the story is, make sure you understand the federal and state tax situations.


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## table1349

vintagesnaps said:


> The thing about free photo sessions is that people are probably glad to have just about anything they're given for free.


Boy ain't that the truth.  A McDonald's happy meal is the perfect example. They give your kid a cheap nothing toy.  The kid plays with it all of five minutes and then that toy ends up on the floor under your feet. Those kids were thrilled when they pulled that toy out of the box though.


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## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing about free photo sessions is that people are probably glad to have just about anything they're given for free.
> 
> 
> 
> Boy ain't that the truth.  A McDonald's happy meal is the perfect example. They give your kid a cheap nothing toy.  The kid plays with it all of five minutes and then that toy ends up on the floor under your feet. Those kids were thrilled when they pulled that toy out of the box though.
Click to expand...

Actually, not always the case.  My Veteran's Portrait Project meets a LOT of suspicion; "what's the catch?", "why are you giving something away free?", "no one gives stuff away..." and in fact, I suspect it might even go better if I charged for the sessions but that would, for me, defeat part of the purpose.

That said, it's okay to offer work at no cost, but you need to do it correctly.  "Hi Friend/neighbour/whomever...  I was wondering if you could give me a hand.  I'm trying to figure out a new pose/lighting plan/test a lens and I need a person/people to stand in front of my camera for a little while."  "Sure, if you can have a couple of files if anything turns out."

This changes the dynamic and instead of you giving something away, they're doing you a favour by posing.


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## vintagesnaps

Sure, for a charitable cause that someone wants to support it's not unusual for photographers or artists to donate time or photos/artwork. Or doing a limited amount of work in trade, if it's a trusted friend or family member that you really do just want to try out a technique and give them a few photos.

But it isn't necessary to have all _that_ many photos for a portfolio for the amount of free work that many people seem to be doing. And periodically the portfolio will have additions and older work removed so photographers usually work it out to add to the portfolio from current jobs. All the freebies and the underpricing is helping to put photographers out of business.


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## manaheim

I don't do anything for free. I do plenty of things at a 100% discount, and the people I do that for get an actual photo agreement that I ask them to sign and it shows the usual fee and the 100% discount.


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## beagle100

vintagesnaps said:


> All the freebies and the underpricing is helping to put photographers out of business.



the photography business is not like being a dentist, engineer, architect, etc. 
Photographers are going out of business because  (shocking news !)  everyone now has a camera !


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## tirediron

beagle100 said:


> the photography business is not like being a dentist, engineer, architect, etc.  Photographers are going out of business because  (shocking news !)  everyone now has a camera !


Mmmmmm... for the most part, photographers aren't going out of business.  Fauxtographers (who never should have been in business to begin with) are going out of business.


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## beagle100

tirediron said:


> beagle100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the photography business is not like being a dentist, engineer, architect, etc.  Photographers are going out of business because  (shocking news !)  everyone now has a camera !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmmmm... for the most part, photographers aren't going out of business.  Fauxtographers (who never should have been in business to begin with) are going out of business.
Click to expand...



Mmmmm....  then it's simply separating the Fauxtographers from the Real Photographers
Caveat Emptor !


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## kitkatdubs

Are my prices too high?  I live in the Bay Area so I really feel like most photographers that are starting out, that I know of, are around 350-400 starting out.  Other more experienced photographers start at about 800 for a family session.  I would like to get business just not sure where to start on how to do that.


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## tirediron

kitkatdubs said:


> Are my prices too high?  I live in the Bay Area so I really feel like most photographers that are starting out, that I know of, are around 350-400 starting out.  Other more experienced photographers start at about 800 for a family session.  I would like to get business just not sure where to start on how to do that.


This post more than anything tells me that you are not ready to start a business.  Your prices are what your prices need to be.  They are not arbitrary numbers that you guess at, they at definite values based on set calculations.  What I would suggest is that you step back from the photography and spend a little time on the business. 

Learn what a business plan is, and how to draft one, then do it.  Determine what your prices must be (essentially hard costs + soft costs + salary / number of sessions = prices) and go from there.  There's nothing wrong with adjusting your prices slightly to match the market, but you need to know where you stand first.  Most "photographers" asking $150 for "one hour session all edited images on a CD" are actually losing money, even though they feel they're rich when they put that $150 in their pocket.


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## kitkatdubs

tirediron said:


> kitkatdubs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are my prices too high?  I live in the Bay Area so I really feel like most photographers that are starting out, that I know of, are around 350-400 starting out.  Other more experienced photographers start at about 800 for a family session.  I would like to get business just not sure where to start on how to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> This post more than anything tells me that you are not ready to start a business.  Your prices are what your prices need to be.  They are not arbitrary numbers that you guess at, they at definite values based on set calculations.  What I would suggest is that you step back from the photography and spend a little time on the business.
> 
> Learn what a business plan is, and how to draft one, then do it.  Determine what your prices must be (essentially hard costs + soft costs + salary / number of sessions = prices) and go from there.  There's nothing wrong with adjusting your prices slightly to match the market, but you need to know where you stand first.  Most "photographers" asking $150 for "one hour session all edited images on a CD" are actually losing money, even though they feel they're rich when they put that $150 in their pocket.
Click to expand...


Can you help me figure out this calculation?


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## tirediron

Basically, you need to take all of your hard costs for one month (A hard cost is anything where you actually lay money for that specific item), so insurance, electricity, gas, software subscriptions, professional fees, cell phone & Internet bills, and add those to your soft costs (soft costs are things like money put aside for equipment replacement and anything else where there isn't a specific cost attached to it), and total those up. That's how much money your business will cost you to run each month.  Now you need to add your salary into it and you have the amount of money that your business needs to bring in each month.  We'll assume that total is $4000. Now figure out how many sessions a month you want to shoot - let's pick 8 as a nice easy number with which to work.  That means every session has to bring in $500 AT LEAST.  If you set your session fee at say $200 for a one-hour session, that means you need to push $300 worth of product from that session.  Now it's simply a matter of looking at your costs for product and determining an average cost to get that $300.  Don't forget to price digital files at a point where it makes prints look attractive.  You want to sell prints and other product, NOT digital files.


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## kitkatdubs

tirediron said:


> Basically, you need to take all of your hard costs for one month (A hard cost is anything where you actually lay money for that specific item), so insurance, electricity, gas, software subscriptions, professional fees, cell phone & Internet bills, and add those to your soft costs (soft costs are things like money put aside for equipment replacement and anything else where there isn't a specific cost attached to it), and total those up. That's how much money your business will cost you to run each month.  Now you need to add your salary into it and you have the amount of money that your business needs to bring in each month.  We'll assume that total is $4000. Now figure out how many sessions a month you want to shoot - let's pick 8 as a nice easy number with which to work.  That means every session has to bring in $500 AT LEAST.  If you set your session fee at say $200 for a one-hour session, that means you need to push $300 worth of product from that session.  Now it's simply a matter of looking at your costs for product and determining an average cost to get that $300.  Don't forget to price digital files at a point where it makes prints look attractive.  You want to sell prints and other product, NOT digital files.




To be completely honest, I do not want to do IPS.  Nor do I want to sell products (at least at this point.)  I just want to do a flat fee for a session which will include 20-25 digitals.  I think the reason being for this is b/c in the past as a customer to a photographer, I was always steered away from photographers that only offered prints b/c I #1 didn't have the money to pay for all these prints so then I couldn't get the photos taken #2 I do not like sales.  I want to make it affordable for people to have photos done for their family and not be spending $1000's of dollars in an already expensive area (I live in San Fran)


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## tirediron

Unfortunately that's not really a viable model for a business.  I would guess that you are probably competing with with at least 25,000 other people trying to do the same thing within a 10 mile radius.  There's also a much more fundamental issue relating to this school of thought.  The purpose of  photography (fine-art photography aside) is to preserve memories.  How often do you look at those 10,000 digital files on your computer?  How easy is it for you to show off that great photo?  

A story that I tell my clients is my own situation:  Growing up in the 70s, my mother was the family photographer.  She had the Kodak Instamatic in her purse and whipped it out for every event.  There are hundreds, if not thousands of images of my brothers, my father, myself and all the other relatives.  I have one okay print of my mother (who died 16 years ago).  I wish she'd had some professional family photos done.  It would be a nice memory to have.

Yes, prints are expensive, and in-person sales aren't too everyone's taste, but if you actually want to make a business....


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## vintagesnaps

I think you really need to give some thought to what John's telling you; he knows what he's talking about.

American Society of Media Photographers and PPA have info. for photographers about contracts, licensing, etc. But if you don't want to price competitively or offer prints etc. I'm not sure how that's gong to work. I think it depends somewhat on where you live how likely it is that a photography business is going to work out. In my area media in general was hit hard with jobs disappearing, and the college near me has photography as one of its few mandatory dual majors (with business as the other recommended major) so those students will be able to find jobs.

As far as working for free, no matter what you call it it's doing work without getting paid, and I just think there's a limit to it - I've done sports, took photos for marketing for a local team, and gave their booster club pictures at no cost. I also went to my nephew's games and of course I just gave my family the pictures for free. Beyond that sort of thing, donating your time and providing photos to a charitable cause could be a worthwhile option.

Businesses don't provide a product or service for free - does a restaurant give you a free meal? does the plumber come over and not charge you? Now they may offer specials or deals, kids eat free or buy one - get one, but would go out of business if they did nothing but freebies. I had a mechanic not charge me for a minor repair that didn't require parts because I'd been a regular customer for years - so for the right reason it makes sense, but to keep doing freebies randomly for everybody all the time doesn't seem like it's going to work running a business. I think you can keep it affordable but stay in range of the going rate so you're not underpricing.


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## kitkatdubs

vintagesnaps said:


> I think you really need to give some thought to what John's telling you; he knows what he's talking about.



I totally agree with both of you.  I am just trying to find what fits for me and my style.  I worked for a bank doing sales for a year absolutely hated it!  I am not a sales person and I don't like the idea of pushing prints to people if they would rather have the digitals.  Yes, I understand people have 10,000+ photos and they do nothing with them, but with everything turning digital lately, most people want the digitals to share on FB and email to friends and family.  What about the idea of charging a flat rate session fee of say $150 - then charging per package.  So the 5 digitals would be $100.  10 digitals would be $180.  20 digitals would be $320.  Is that an option?


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## tirediron

Digital packages are absolutely an option, and IMO, you should always separate the session fee from the product regardless of whether it's digital of physical.  I totally understand the social media requirements, and what I like to do is offer "facebook files" as a free bonus; these are <200 pixel long-edge images at 72PPI.  As far as the sales go, I never push; I recommend options. 

I explain that one of the reasons I like to offer them prints, in addition to the not getting lost in their computer aspect, is so that they can have a professionally printed piece of art.  Most people don't have access to professional labs, and don't appreciate the difference they make.  One of the things I often do when I get the "Well, I'll just pay a little more for the digital file and make the prints at Wal-mart" comment is to pull out two versions of the same image; one done by my lab, the other done at Wal-mart.  more often than not, that convinces them.


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## kitkatdubs

tirediron said:


> Digital packages are absolutely an option, and IMO, you should always separate the session fee from the product regardless of whether it's digital of physical.  I totally understand the social media requirements, and what I like to do is offer "facebook files" as a free bonus; these are <200 pixel long-edge images at 72PPI.  As far as the sales go, I never push; I recommend options.
> 
> I explain that one of the reasons I like to offer them prints, in addition to the not getting lost in their computer aspect, is so that they can have a professionally printed piece of art.  Most people don't have access to professional labs, and don't appreciate the difference they make.  One of the things I often do when I get the "Well, I'll just pay a little more for the digital file and make the prints at Wal-mart" comment is to pull out two versions of the same image; one done by my lab, the other done at Wal-mart.  more often than not, that convinces them.



So would you recommend putting on my website  the session fee but NOT the digital package prices and options?  SO at least customers know the price for the session?  Or would that confuse them and then they think the whole thing is $150 and get mad when I send them the price sheet that they have to pay extra for the digitals.  How many Facebook files do you give as a bonus?  All of them in Facebook format?


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## kitkatdubs

Also, what is your reason for separating the digitals out?  I don't really get that whole idea... it sounds great but Im trying to figure out the reasoning behind charging a session fee AND charging per package....


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## KmH

kitkatdubs said:


> . . .  I would like to get business just not sure where to start on how to do that.


How is by effective marketing and promotion.
The start, as John (tirediron) pointed out, is a well researched and written business/marketing plan - intended to be done early on to establish that a business has a chance at being an ongoing enterprise.
As the business is ongoing, the business plan has to be continually updated as business conditions change.
Starting & Managing a Business | The U.S. Small Business Administration | SBA.gov


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## tirediron

kitkatdubs said:


> Also, what is your reason for separating the digitals out?  I don't really get that whole idea... it sounds great but Im trying to figure out the reasoning behind charging a session fee AND charging per package....


You bill for the session at the time of shooting.  That pays for your time and creativity to actually create the images.  This is separate from the purchase of the product, in much the same way that if you got a mechanic, labour and parts are separate line items on the invoice.  It also ensures that if the client decides not to actually purchase any prints/files, you're not out of pocket for the session.


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