# A Couple Tries at B&W - Feedback Accepted and Encouraged



## AgentDrex (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm not well-practiced at this form of photography.  Figure to become practiced, one must first begin to practice.

#1 - Dirt Pile






#2 - Keep Looking Up





#3 - Unknown Spider


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## wyogirl (Aug 4, 2014)

Well you have the right idea....practice, practice, practice.  As far as interesting shots, the spider is the best.  All three could use some contrast boost and maybe split toning.  Were these digital?  I can't read the exif.
I'm going to take a crack at editing the spider.... brb.


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## dxqcanada (Aug 4, 2014)

Remember, whites should be white and blacks black ... then you can play with the mid-tones


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## wyogirl (Aug 4, 2014)

^^ this.  All of these are what would be considered "muddy".  Here is my take on the Spider.  I think you maybe should have shot him with a little more depth of field as well.


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## Derrel (Aug 4, 2014)

wyogirl said:


> Well you have the right idea....practice, practice, practice.  As far as interesting shots, the spider is the best.  All three could use some *contrast boost and maybe split tonin*g.  Were these digital?  I can't read the exif.
> I'm going to take a crack at editing the spider.... brb.



Agreed, totally. Except the last part...all I ever do with spiders is to crush them...I never edit them. Ever.


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## AgentDrex (Aug 4, 2014)

So in B&W, whites should be blown and blacks blocked?  I can try that.  Thank you for the edit.  I approve!  Thank you all for the suggestions.


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## Derrel (Aug 4, 2014)

I would say the overall contrast range is acceptable in all three originals. However the local contrast, meaning the tonality difference between similar tones, is a bit too low for maximum enjoyment. ALso, I think the brightness level (or in Nikon Capture speak, the Lightness Channel) is set a bit too low, and that affects mostly the mid-tone brightness. I see the first tow landscape shots as showing a good, full range of tones, but the local contrast is too low; there's just too much of not-really-all-that-well-differentiated grayish vibe goin' on.

I can tell by looking that if these were sent to print on matte paper that the prints would feel very drab and muddy. These lack what one might call "SNAP!" In the first, Dirt Pile, the problem is NOT  the blacks--it's allll the gray tones that meld together. 

The second scene actually lacks almost ANY really true black subject matter, but again, the tones are so slowly-changing from one value to the other, that the local contrast is not set quite optimally, I think. IT'S A VERY SUBTLE scene, for sure, but I think Unsharp Masking at 10% at 150 pixel radius and a 0 threshold a time or two would add realism and a feeling of texture. ANd YES, those numbers are not transposed! 10%, 150 pixel radius, threshold ZERO! Maybe do one pass, then fade it to 40%, then repeat, then fade that once again down to to 40%, then do the same 10/150/0 pass, one last time. That will make that scene more contrasty, and will make it *look more REAL.*

DIGITAL is actually rather weak at conveying shape and texture in scenes like #2, and there are software applications designed specifically to add the feeling of clarity/texture/shape, but the strange Unsharp Masking method I mentioned is a well-known way to add local contrast and the feeling of real, actual texture, of real actual depth, to digital B&W files.

The spider is very light grayish all over most of the frame, but so was the actual subject matter, so...it needs to be "juiced" a bit.


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## G2Photo (Aug 4, 2014)

Black and white is more about the gray scale. You want your tones to work together to create depth in the image, so in turn, it is all about the contrast in the image. When a level of tones are too overpowering, you end up with a "flat" image.
Here a few examples:


Here are some basic tips for shooting in black and white.
Tips for Shooting in Black and White
B&W Photography: 10 Tips for Shooting Amazing Black and White Photos

I am no pro by any means with photography but have painted in black and white for about 15 years. Black and white can create a very artistic and dramatic effect when used properly. You can use black and white to really capture a mood or presence in the photo you are capturing. The two photos I placed above where done differently but the similarity is that they are black and white. With the portion of the tractor I shot, I wanted to capture the rusted patina and overall old qualities of the piece. Granted, I did use post processing with clarity and luminance, as well as adjusting the tones. The barn scene was kept pretty much how I shot it with some post processing to add a little more contrast to the photo to create overall depth. 

This is more or less how I would have shot the spider. I would have tried to place the spider completely in focus and added a little more background, keeping it blurred, to add more depth of field.


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## snerd (Aug 4, 2014)

G2Photo said:


> Here are some basic tips for shooting in black and white.
> Tips for Shooting in Black and White



From the link..............


> *5. Do Not Covert Your Shots to Black and White in Photoshop
> *
> This may seem like the simplest and most obvious way to change any  shot you want into a black and white composition. For many  photographers, this can lead to mistakes and overall duller and  photographs with less contrast and vibrancy. The camera has taken the  exposure into account based on the ranges possible within black and  white. Photoshop is less sophisticated in its understanding of this  range with the simple conversion tools it has and will flatten a lot of  the depth you have captured in the shot. The conversion from one to the  other is not 100%. If you have a more complex software that came with  your camera, this will allow you to manipulate the shots much more  carefully. Never use the computer as your main tool for creating your  photographs.


I thought that I had read here that you "wanted" to use software for the conversion, instead of the camera?


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## AgentDrex (Aug 5, 2014)

Awesome!!  I can definitely keep all that info in mind for future shots.  I think I'm starting to like the challenges of B&W.


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## G2Photo (Aug 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> G2Photo said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some basic tips for shooting in black and white.
> ...



I don't really agree with that so much as the rest of the article. I do prefer to shoot in color but I do not let PS or LR convert my photos to B&W. I do that manually. I don't trust PS or LR to do it for me since I am never happy with the results.


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## Ysarex (Aug 5, 2014)

AgentDrex said:


> So in B&W, whites should be blown and  blacks blocked?



*NO.* There are exceptions to every rule and artistic license exists -- granted. At the same time there are rules.

Rule: Never blow out diffuse highlights in b&w or color. Rule: Blocked shadows are generally bad but OK if small and dispersed. When blocked shadows coalesce they become a black hole and we know what black holes do....

In your first photo you've just begun to block some small shadows -- you're getting away with it. (see inset histogram).

The photo is very flat and lacks contrast. Again look at the inset histogram. You processed the photo so as not to blow out the diffuse highlights. Correct! Unfortunately those diffuse highlights are very small and due to the high contrast side light they are considerably brighter than the photo's midtones. Minus those critical highlights your photo then is only using 75% of the available tone range and that's why it looks flat. The problem is clear in the histogram. You need the histogram shifted to the right. A simple Levels adjustment pulling the highlight slider to the left would work but it would clip those highlights in the clouds -- can't do that and so you have a problem.

You could use Curves which would compress the highlights but prevent them from clipping. It's a weak solution because of the compression that will occur in the highlights.



So I masked the highlights, shifted the histogram right using Levels and blended in the masked highlights. You now have the photo with the overall tone response normalized and those bright highlights held in place. 15 years ago in the darkroom we would have called it printing the photo to a normal contrast and then burning in the highlights. Back then the conditions of natural lighting (high contrast side light) made it necessary to manipulate almost all photos with what we called burning and dodging. That requirement hasn't changed with digital cameras and software processing. Automated algorithms either can't do it or do it very poorly.

Further processing to taste (eg. more/less contrast, burned corners, etc.) is possible but, if following the rules, the diffuse highlights don't get blown and the shadows don't get crushed.

*Nothing* can do a better job converting a color photo to b&w than Photoshop -- skill is required.

Joe


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## Derrel (Aug 5, 2014)

^^^^"No more dull hair."  Like those old TV ads. "Go from dull to WOW! in just minutes." Home hair care product ads. Long time ago.


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## BananaRepublic (Aug 8, 2014)

I have read the 10 list link and it has confused me more. do you just switch your camera to B&W and do nothing post, as all images in the link seemed to me to be bland, or what.

G2Photo's image of the CASE air filter, is the look that I like. Was that just bang image as shot or was there more work in it.

I understand the contrast between the white lettering and the back soot in that particular image makes it. 

Am I  gone wrong altogether with this shot >    http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/black-white-gallery/366669-b-w-processing.html


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## Ysarex (Aug 8, 2014)

BananaRepublic said:


> I have read the 10 list link and it has confused me more. do you just switch your camera to B&W and do nothing post....



You're going to do better with PP, especially a raw file,  but there are some cameras that can turn out at least a respectable B&W JPEG. When it comes to in camera B&W processing the differences between different camera brands are more pronounced than the difference with color. For example does the camera provide a full battery of B&W filter options.



BananaRepublic said:


> Am I  gone wrong altogether with this shot >    http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/black-white-gallery/366669-b-w-processing.html



See you back at your thread.

Joe


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