# Who actually on TPF is a paid working professional photographer?



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

There are a lot of people on this site and I was wondering who actually on TPF is a paid working professional photographer?

Just curious to see how many people are actually just hobbyists or professionals. It would be great to be able to put a pro or hobbyist by the persons name/avatar in my head, as a reference.


I am not a paid working professional photographer?


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

Define the phrase _paid working professional photographer_.


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

Someone who makes a living as a professional photographer. Whether it be operating and owning a successful business or working for a firm or buisness. Could be working for a newspaper, some type of magazine photographer and so forth. Someone who is a paid working professional without other means of income. Not a person who just makes side money here and there...


----------



## Vtec44 (May 8, 2012)

I'm a hybrid.


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> Someone who makes a living as a professional photographer. Whether it be operating and owning a successful business or working for a firm or buisness. Could be working for a newspaper, some type of magazine photographer and so forth. Someone who is a paid working professional without other means of income. Not a person who just makes side money here and there...




I'm not sure it really matters if (i) you get paid, or (ii) you work as a photographer to make a living.  There are hobbyists who have been doing photography for decades and they have mad skills, but they make a living doing something completely different.  Why does it matter how they make a living if they have superior skills?  I can learn from anybody with more skill than I have.


----------



## pgriz (May 8, 2012)

Lesseee...  I'm paid (but not as often as I'd like), I'm working (maybe too much), I'm professional (or so I tell myself), and I'm a photographer (have camera, click shutters).  Check,  Check,  Check, Check.   Ergo, I must be...  A paid, working, professional photographer!  



Not.  (sorry, couldn't resist...)


----------



## Trever1t (May 8, 2012)

what about those persons who do get paid to shoot part time and hold full time jobs doing other things


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

Trever1t said:


> what about those persons who do get paid to shoot part time and hold full time jobs doing other things



Yeah I guess that would qualify as well as long as give a description of your individual circumstance.


----------



## MReid (May 8, 2012)

Two years ago I was making 1/3 of my income from photography. I have scaled back a lot in the last couple years.....just too many hours for the pay check.


----------



## bhop (May 8, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm not sure it really matters if (i) you get paid, or (ii) you work as a photographer to make a living.  There are hobbyists who have been doing photography for decades and they have mad skills, but they make a living doing something completely different.  Why does it matter how they make a living if they have superior skills?  I can learn from anybody with more skill than I have.



He just said he was curious.. nothing wrong with curiosity.

fwiw, i'm a mere hobbyist..


----------



## Balmiesgirl (May 8, 2012)

I have students who come in and say they are a pro now cause they just got paid for taking photos.....0 skills- mostly luck..... And I know hobbyists that know enough to be a very successful pro but would rather make a real living wage doing something else


----------



## CCericola (May 8, 2012)

When I started out on my own after workking for studios i was 90% photography and 10% design services. That was in 2003.  I am now 75% design services and promotional products and 25% photography services. That's is why I rent a lot of equipment now instead of buying.


----------



## Crollo (May 8, 2012)

Balmiesgirl said:


> I have students who come in and say they are a pro now cause they just got paid for taking photos


That is the definition of a professional. Somebody who makes a profit with their work.


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

Crollo said:


> Balmiesgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I have students who come in and say they are a pro now cause they just got paid for taking photos
> ...



Selling some photos &#8800; making a profit.


----------



## sandraadamson (May 8, 2012)

I'm a hybrid as well.

www.sandraadamson.com www.sandraadamson.blogspot.com


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 8, 2012)

I have been working as a full time professional photographer making all my income from a camera for over 35 years.  I have never played weekend  photographer while using a full time job as the sole source of income. I know amateurs that have great skills but are also smart enough to know they couldn't cut it as a full time photographer.  I wouldn't throw away a steady pay cheque to wade into the pro photo world these days, I also wouldn't just stick photographer or photography after my name and pretend to be a professional, but then I respect the business I work in, and the other professionals.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 8, 2012)

Crollo said:


> Balmiesgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I have students who come in and say they are a pro now cause they just got paid for taking photos
> ...



Funny.. I don't call myself a professional! And yet I still do take an occasional paid job.. although I turn down more than I take. Sometimes I do free work... at least from a money standpoint, but take a receipt for a charitable tax write off instead. Does that count? I also get the occasional request for a print... and I charge a fair rate for those! Does that count?

I think we really need to redefine the term "Professional Photographer" based on  reality, instead of just whether someone gets paid $50 for a 3 hour  session and 500 photos on a cd!

Maybe we should include the factors that a successful photography business has.. such as knowing their CODB, and charging more than that! Having liability insurance, a business license (or equivalent), a professional means of advertising such as a website, paid ads (Craigslist and Facebook don't count), a strong, loyal clientele, a body of work that deserves the title PROFESSIONAL, membership in Professional Organizations, etc, etc! I am sure there are many other factors that a true professional will have as part of their business. I don't think just earning few bucks, really makes a person a professional!


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 8, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Crollo said:
> 
> 
> > Balmiesgirl said:
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Crollo said:
> 
> 
> > Balmiesgirl said:
> ...




I think this was fairly concise as to who the OP was asking about:



vipgraphx said:


> Someone who is a paid working professional without other means of income. Not a person who just makes side money here and there...


 
Maybe this thread will continue without having yet another "what defines a professional" debate?




*bah* 



Who am I kidding?


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

Yeah not looking to have a another long argument about opinion and or debates. Just wondering who does this stuff for a living on here. There is no hidden agenda or deeper read between the lines thing going on.Just a simple who is a working paid professional who makes their 100% income with a camera.


----------



## tirediron (May 8, 2012)

Huh... haven't seen this one in what... three, four months?


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> Yeah not looking to have a another long argument about opinion and or debates. Just wondering who does this stuff for a living on here. There is no hidden agenda or deeper read between the lines thing going on.Just a simple who is a working paid professional who makes their 100% income with a camera.



Perhaps the question should be more like, "Who pays their mortgage/rent, car payments, pays thier utilities, puts food on the table, and saves for their kid's college with photography?"


----------



## cgipson1 (May 8, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Maybe this thread will continue without having yet another "what defines a professional" debate?
> 
> *bah*
> 
> ...



It would be nice! However.. we do need to get away from the PAID = PROFESSIONAL then! It is no longer a valid way of determining a professional... hence my response to Crollo! No intent to start an argument, or another interminable debate with no real outcome!


----------



## cgipson1 (May 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah not looking to have a another long argument about opinion and or debates. Just wondering who does this stuff for a living on here. There is no hidden agenda or deeper read between the lines thing going on.Just a simple who is a working paid professional who makes their 100% income with a camera.
> ...



Better! Much better!


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah not looking to have a another long argument about opinion and or debates. Just wondering who does this stuff for a living on here. There is no hidden agenda or deeper read between the lines thing going on.Just a simple who is a working paid professional who makes their 100% income with a camera.
> ...




Umm I don't know maybe its just me but isn't that 100% income with photography? Or are you saying in addition to your normal job you use photography to "HELP" with mortgage/rent, car payments, pays thier utilities, puts food on the table, and saves for their kid's college because that can open a whole other door with all the folks that many call "bestbuy pros" with a face book account.......you think?????


I was fine with the original question of who is an actual working paid professional photographer and I still think it should stand this way. I am curious who here is doing this for a living and who is just a hobbyist. Out of all the post thus far I think there has been just a few that are or have been.

Curious to know what the sites ratio is to hobbyist vs paid professional and there should not be any grey areas for people to slip through. Its a very simple question.


----------



## sleist (May 8, 2012)

Why do you want to know?

I've seen people who make a living at this whose work is not close to the caliber where their opinion of _*my*_ work would mean anything to me what so ever.
I've seen "hobbyists" who make me want to throw away my camera.

I make a living outside of photography.
I currently pay for my NAS by selling my work.
That works for me, but it isn't what most would call professional.


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

sleist said:


> Why do you want to know?
> 
> .



Why not?


----------



## Josh66 (May 8, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe this thread will continue without having yet another "what defines a professional" debate?
> ...


I don't think it's so much that we should get away from paid = professional, but we probably should get away from professional = good.


edit
Every industry has it hacks.  The poeple who are just good enough to go under the radar and not get fired.  I don't dispute that they are "professionals" (even if they don't act like it), but I wouldn't say that they were good at what they do.

On the other hand, it does take a lot of work to be consistantly mediocre and keep getting away with it.


----------



## sleist (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you want to know?
> ...



I don't disagree that there might be reasons why someone would want to know this.  I wanted to know YOUR reasons.
Why does this matter to you?


----------



## spacefuzz (May 8, 2012)

Shouldnt it just be who has professional level work?  I could care less if Steve shot his friends wedding for $200, I only care about the quality of the work.  


to answer your question I make (very little) money off my landscape photography but I do occasionally do aircraft photo shoots at work.  That hourly rate is VERY good for a photographer.


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> ........... Its a very simple question.



Actually, it isn't.


----------



## Josh66 (May 8, 2012)

I think the question was simple enough.  Is photography your primary source of income?  Yes or No.

There is no grey area...  The "greyness" comes in when people assume that a pro is good at what they do.  That would be nice if it were true, but a lot of times, it isn't.


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

sleist said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > sleist said:
> ...




I think I have said that already. I am curious to know the ratio on the forum of hobbyist vs pro meaning you make 100% of your income as a professional photographer. Thats it man just plain and simple........



spacefuzz said:


> Shouldnt it just be who has professional level work?  I could care less if Steve shot his friends wedding for $200, I only care about the quality of the work.
> 
> 
> to answer your question I make (very little) money off my landscape photography but I do occasionally do aircraft photo shoots at work.  That hourly rate is VERY good for a photographer.



Seems like no matter what there is always going to be an issue here. Why can't people just post and keep it simple.

"Yes" I am a paid professional, I earn a living off of photography...

"NO" I am a hobbyist or semi pro who sometimes gets paid for work or sells a print....

Good or bad is irrelevant at this point because we all have an opinion on what is good and or bad. Thus why I was not asking for another debate on opinions of what makes a professional good or bad....blah blah blah blah...


Example
If a Baseball player is on the MLB team he is a " Paid Professional"  does it matter if he sits the bench as a relief player or he is a big name big player? Not at this point because that is not the question. 

If you go to the park with your pals for a weekend pick up game and and you have the skills to pay the bills but your not in the MLB making a living than your not a paid professional and more like a hobbyist.....


Whether your work is professional is a whole other topic and would most likely cause an earthquake on the forum. If someone wants to start a thread about that is up to he/she to do so.


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > ........... Its a very simple question.
> ...



Actually, it is....do you make 100% of your income and work full time as a photographer or not?? OR are you an active hobbyist who uses photography as supplemental income..or just a hobbyist who is in it for the fun...


----------



## Josh66 (May 8, 2012)

Since I haven't actually answered the question yet - I am a hobbyist, but I make money on the side when I can.  I do not consider myself a pro.


----------



## spacefuzz (May 8, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> I think the question was simple enough. Is photography your primary source of income? Yes or No.
> 
> There is no grey area... The "greyness" comes in when people assume that a pro is good at what they do. That would be nice if it were true, but a lot of times, it isn't.



_*The question of photography as a primary source of income is completely different from being a professional. 
*_
Now granted this is from wikipedia so take it as you may but....

*Definition* The main criteria for professional include the following:

Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.[SUP][5][/SUP]
Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[SUP][6][/SUP]
High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing, photography or other work endeavours.
A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.
Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.
Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavour often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return[SUP][5][/SUP]
Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Consideration should be shown to elderly, junior or inexperienced colleagues, as well as those with special needs. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.
A professional is an expert who is master in a specific field.
*Analysis*: So looking at the above reasons, yes monetary gain is among them, but it is not the primary factor, and it is also not stipulated that you HAVE to make your entire living off that profession.  In this definition work quality also plays a large factor, which I see in other professions.  Photography should be no different.  

As an example, in my field of engineering to become a Professional and be allowed to use that term in your title and / or business, you need to meet strict criteria which includes expert knowledge in your field, years of experience, quality work, several tests, ethics, peer review, etc. 

I know there are organizations out there that provide tests and will give you the title of professional photographer. That should be used as the standard, not how much money you make off it. 

Ok thats my soapbox you can all continue arguing.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> Seems like no matter what there is always going to be an issue here. Why can't people just post and keep it .



You used the magic word, silly! 

When you use that word, argument ensues.
It's really that simple.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

spacefuzz said:


> ]
> 
> _*The question of photography as a primary source of income is completely different from being a professional.
> *_
> .



Why does this have to be this difficult? No seriously? This isn't brain surgery, rocket science, or freakin' engineering. It's a freaking simple question.

Freaking "poor word choice" nazis.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (May 8, 2012)

You can still be a paid professional photographer and still make more money with another job.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

:roll:


----------



## bentcountershaft (May 8, 2012)

I've been known to shoot for beer but photography isn't my only source of beer.


----------



## Josh66 (May 8, 2012)

Some people are either unable to read between the lines, or just like to argue.

Whatever words he used, I think it's pretty clear what the OP is actually asking.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

I know, right?!


----------



## prodigy2k7 (May 8, 2012)

If you're talking about me. I just didn't feel like reading all the posts before replying lol.


----------



## Buckster (May 8, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I know, right?!


100% agreed.  It's just too simple.

I'm not someone who makes his living from photography.  I'm a hobbiest who makes less with it per year than I spend in new gear per year, and I'm just fine with that.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 8, 2012)

prodigy2k7 said:


> If you're talking about me. I just didn't feel like reading all the posts before replying lol.



Obviously. 

So what did you learn?


----------



## Josh66 (May 8, 2012)

prodigy2k7 said:


> If you're talking about me. I just didn't feel like reading all the posts before replying lol.


I didn't see your post till after I had made mine.

I'm just saying that anybody with a little bit of common sense should be able to take what the OP asked, and figured out what he _really_ wanted to know.

Anybody that hasn't done that either knows what he was asking, but saw an opportunity to argue about something - or doesn't have the ability to interpret what other people are saying when they don't spell it out in very simple language for them.


----------



## manaheim (May 8, 2012)

I'm a paid professional, but photography is by NO MEANS my primary source of income.  I make between 5 and 10% of my annual income on photography.

My GOD that's so pathetic. 

I could probably do better, but I don't have the balls to go full time and there's NO WAY I could replace my salary in IT in any reasonable period of time as a photographer.

But, I really only "went pro" to pay for the gear, and that has fulfilled my requirements perfectly, so no complaints.


There... how was that?


----------



## Kerbouchard (May 8, 2012)

Hobbiest.  Although, I do shoot weddings with a pro 2 or 3 times a month.

Honestly, I make more money as an Engineer than most photographers and although I work a lot of hours, its nowhere close to what is required to run a successful business.

For a primary source of income, I'll stick with Engineering.


----------



## Robin Usagani (May 8, 2012)

Not sure what I am.


----------



## Trever1t (May 8, 2012)

I am


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> Actually, it is....do you make 100% of your income and work full time as a photographer or not?? OR are you an active hobbyist who uses photography as supplemental income..or just a hobbyist who is in it for the fun...



100%?  You're kidding, right?  Then you'll find exceedingly few people who make *One Hundred Percent* of their income strictly from photography.  If they have a 401(k), or IRA, or a CD, or even a savings account, then they can't be considered a professional under your definition.  

Maybe they get frequent flier miles and take a free trip.  Nope, no longer a pro.  Suppose they mow their neighbor's lawn for ten bucks a week.  Oops, their goes their professional status.  Does the money they bring in from a garage sale count against them?  Suppose they fine a nickel on the sidewalk?  Oh, now they don't make 100% from photography.

OK, maybe this is a bit silly.  But what about those who have substantial income from other sources?  Suppose they rent out residential or commercial property they own?  Babysit a kid or two during the week?  The issue then becomes.... at what point are they still considered 'professionals'?... 95% of their income comes from photography?  90%?  80%?  75%?  50.000000000001?


----------



## Buckster (May 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, it is....do you make 100% of your income and work full time as a photographer or not?? OR are you an active hobbyist who uses photography as supplemental income..or just a hobbyist who is in it for the fun...
> ...


All you're doing with posts like this is proving that you're either an idiot or a jerk.  Good luck with that.


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

Buckster said:


> All you're doing with posts like this is proving that you're either an idiot or a jerk.  Good luck with that.



Mama said if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all.  So I won't respond to comments like this.


----------



## Kerbouchard (May 8, 2012)

Based on this article, if I were to quit my day job and go 'pro', I would need to start somewhere around the top 5% to break even.

Photography Salary Information



> Statistics show that for a photographer, the average annual salary was $29,440. The lowest 10% earned less than $16,920, the middle 50% between $20,620 and $43,530 while the highest 10% earned upwards of $62,430.



Because of numbers like that, many people are not going to earn their sole income from photography.  I would need to be pretty far north of their 'upwards' figure to break even.

Also, many 'pro' photographers that I know also have a spouse that works to supplement their income.  So, while they may earn a living soley from photography, their family unit does not.

Basically, there are a very, very few people on this forum, or on a national level that fully support themselves and their family with photography.  And many of those do it through selling books or seminars.  Let's just say that, IMO, there are more people who make a full time living selling photography equipment/gadgets/modifiers/etc than there are photographers who earn 100% of their families income.


----------



## vipgraphx (May 8, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, it is....do you make 100% of your income and work full time as a photographer or not?? OR are you an active hobbyist who uses photography as supplemental income..or just a hobbyist who is in it for the fun...
> ...




Man really???? Come on YOU DO know what I mean, Nobody makes a living off of frequent flyer miles, people use their income to invest in 401K or IRA or CD this is just out right silly of you!! I never heard any one getting hired and paid by any of those means....

Why are you making this so difficult? Its either yes or no .....wait don't reply because I see you have a website and you sell prints and are a you have alot of lenses in your signature so you must be a paid pro....your excluded and have a pass....

Geeeesss man sometimes I wonder about some folks....


----------



## prodigy2k7 (May 8, 2012)

So gotta be the lucky guy to shoot playboy to get the big bucks?


----------



## rgregory1965 (May 8, 2012)

MAN, I knew the second I read the Ops question this was gonna turn into another TPF pissn match.....cant we all just get along

This place reminds me of what would happen if you had 10 5 year old kids and tossed one peice of candy at them....its always a argument on here....

Can we make a special Forum for ( Potentially might be a fight if I ask !!! )...LOL


----------



## rgregory1965 (May 8, 2012)

Oh yea....I traded two of my photos for peanuts.....does this make me a Paid Pro now.....


----------



## 480sparky (May 8, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > vipgraphx said:
> ...



Perhaps you could answer my question..... at what point would you not be considered a 'pro'?

I'm an electrician by trade, but by your definition I'm not a pro because I sell a few prints.


----------



## o hey tyler (May 9, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Not sure what I am.



Are you confused, bud? Thinking about coming out of the darkroom?


----------



## vipgraphx (May 9, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > 480sparky said:
> ...


----------



## chuasam (May 9, 2012)

Me. But I'm considering taking a part-time job or a more flexible regular income job so that I have the luxury of picking and choosing my clients and assignments.


----------



## rexbobcat (May 9, 2012)

I'm a pro in the sense that it's my only income.

But I'm not a pro in the sense that that income consists of about $200 a month lol. I'm getting a sales job this summer. 

Honestly, I'd rather just take pictures instead of worrying about what pretentious title I am. 

It's like those girls who write their imaginary married name all over their notebooks. Nobody ever met their soulmate that way. 

Just like no one became a pro by spending all day designing their logo and wondering if they're actually pro. Just take pictures, sell them or not, and quit bitching.


----------



## DScience (May 9, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, it is....do you make 100% of your income and work full time as a photographer or not?? OR are you an active hobbyist who uses photography as supplemental income..or just a hobbyist who is in it for the fun...
> ...



:thumbdown:


----------



## Tony S (May 9, 2012)

Hmmmm....  I guess I would consider myself a serious amatuer who makes enough money to cover the bills and buy new equipment about every 4 years without incurring any debt.


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 9, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Based on this article, if I were to quit my day job and go 'pro', I would need to start somewhere around the top 5% to break even.
> 
> Photography Salary Information
> 
> ...



This is all very true, pretty much all the photographers I know that are married rely on their partners as the only means of staying in photography, me included, I do make all my money through photography, but in this day it isn't enough to do it without help.  It wasn't always the way though.  On the other side I have friends that are working for newspapers, wires services and some freelancers that are making over a 100k, and  others that are making close to 200k a year.  They are working 360 days a year, so photography is all they have, I like the idea of spending time with my family and friends.  It's like any job, if you want all the toys, all the material wealth, you have to sacrifice something along the way.


----------



## usayit (May 9, 2012)

I'ma prosumer.     Try to figure that one out.


----------



## KenC (May 9, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Based on this article, if I were to quit my day job and go 'pro', I would need to start somewhere around the top 5% to break even.
> 
> Photography Salary Information
> 
> ...



Q.  What's the difference between a photographer and a pizza?

A.  A pizza can feed a family of four.


----------



## 480sparky (May 9, 2012)

KenC said:


> Q.  What's the difference between a photographer and a pizza?
> 
> A.  A pizza can feed a family of four.



Careful.......... you'll earn _The TPF Idiot/Jerk Label_ by making comments like that.


----------



## KenC (May 9, 2012)

480sparky said:


> KenC said:
> 
> 
> > Q.  What's the difference between a photographer and a pizza?
> ...



If it's that easy to earn, why don't most of us have it already?  Which other titles might I have that I don't know about?


----------



## spacefuzz (May 9, 2012)

vipgraphx said:


> Man really???? Come on YOU DO know what I mean, Nobody makes a living off of frequent flyer miles, people use their income to invest in 401K or IRA or CD this is just out right silly of you!! I never heard any one getting hired and paid by any of those means....
> 
> Why are you making this so difficult? Its either yes or no .....wait don't reply because I see you have a website and you sell prints and are a you have alot of lenses in your signature so you must be a paid pro....your excluded and have a pass....
> 
> Geeeesss man sometimes I wonder about some folks....



vipgraphx, did you read my post?  Everyone who is disagreeing is not disagreeing with the intent of your question, you want to know who makes all of their money off photography on TPF.  However, making all your money from soemthing is NOT the same as being a professional! Just accept that and move on.


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 9, 2012)

There is quite a lot more to being considered a professional other than just the money. I know people in many other jobs that are paid professionals but don't act like professionals.  I've always considered myself a professional, I treat clients with respect, deliver what I promise, am consistantly good at what I produce, and get paid  because of *my skills and experience as a photographer*.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (May 9, 2012)

spacefuzz said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Man really???? Come on YOU DO know what I mean, Nobody makes a living off of frequent flyer miles, people use their income to invest in 401K or IRA or CD this is just out right silly of you!! I never heard any one getting hired and paid by any of those means....
> ...



That's what you are interjecting into the conversation, to complicate a simple query. Mountain;Molehill


----------



## 480sparky (May 9, 2012)

KenC said:


> If it's that easy to earn, why don't most of us have it already?  Which other titles might I have that I don't know about?



I have earned many monikers over the years.


----------



## DiskoJoe (May 9, 2012)

The term for a part time photographer would be "semipro"

I am semipro. I make money off photography but I do not make my living with photography. But I am getting enough work now to support the need for upgrades.


----------



## manaheim (May 9, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> The term for a part time photographer would be "semipro"
> 
> I am semipro. I make money off photography but I do not make my living with photography. But I am getting enough work now to support the need for upgrades.



"semipro" makes sense.  I like it.


----------



## Steve5D (May 9, 2012)

I'm like DiskoJoe. I earn money here and there, but I'm not paying the mortgage with it.

If I want to upgrade my gear, sometimes my photography pays for all of it, and sometimes it pays for some of it.

I'm careful with the word "professional", though. In my opinion, someone can earn every single penny of their income with a camera, but it's how they conduct themself that dictates whether or not they're a "professional". I know plenty of people who've never earned a dime with photography, but are far more professional than a lot of so-called "pros" I know...


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

I still find it amazing how a simple question about this industry can be turned into a Soap Opera...

And what is even more amazing is that we seem to have more drama kings than we have drama queens...

OMFG!

So, please, answer the question the way it was asked... Simply.

A PRO is defined very simply by the IRS as a person who makes his/her living mostly by ... photography. Get over it. And get over yourself.

Your EGO has nothing to do with any of it.

Now, can we start from the top?


----------



## Alex_B (May 9, 2012)

These days I refuse to take any money for photography-related work.


----------



## DiskoJoe (May 9, 2012)

Alex_B said:


> These days I refuse to take any money for photography-related work.



Good. Come shoot second for me at the next wedding I book. I need to reduce costs.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> The term for a part time photographer would be "semipro"
> 
> I am semipro. I make money off photography but I do not make my living with photography. But I am getting enough work now to support the need for upgrades.



What a joke...

A semi-pro is then anyone who makes a couple bucks a year, lol.

Frankly, I am not surprised by the first responder who liked your post. A part-timer with no incentive to ever quit his day job to go full-time as a photog. Does he have the guts?  But who still thinks he can tell PROS what they should do... 

What a joke...


----------



## Kolander (May 9, 2012)

Working mostly for an Internet portal, as photographer and graphic editor. Besides, reports on location for a fashion trademark. Assignments on the side, here and there.


----------



## Alex_B (May 9, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> Alex_B said:
> 
> 
> > These days I refuse to take any money for photography-related work.
> ...



Actually, that is what I do from time to time, support a starving pro or semi-pro as a second shooter. But I only do that for close friends and only once or twice a year


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

To the OP =

Until very recently I was one of those working pros. I've sold my studio and I have no desire to ever get involved again. None.


----------



## Demers18 (May 9, 2012)

I'm a hobbyist photographer who uses photography as a creative outlet. 

I come to TPF to share photos and try to get better with others who share the same passion. It doesn't matter if you're pro or not.


----------



## 12sndsgood (May 9, 2012)

I am not a pro.



Wow, that was kinda easy.


----------



## chuasam (May 9, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> There is quite a lot more to being considered a professional other than just the money. I know people in many other jobs that are paid professionals but don't act like professionals.  I've always considered myself a professional, I treat clients with respect, deliver what I promise, am consistantly good at what I produce, and get paid  because of *my skills and experience as a photographer*.


 Being a ProfessionalPhotographer has sooo little to do with photography. More time seems to be spent writing quotes, finding people, scouting for locations, calling clients...and calling them again. Getting money from them.

I only wish it was as simple as taking pictures.


----------



## Dao (May 9, 2012)

I made $1000 for one product shoot and that is.  So I am not a pro.
Based on the previous poster posted about the top 10% make 60K+.  I want to keep my current job.


----------



## Vtec44 (May 9, 2012)

I have a photography business - checked!
I have insurance for my photography business - checked!
I have nice cameras - checked! (people always tell me this  )
I make money from my photography - checked!
I pay taxes on my photography related earning - checked!
I spend way to much money on photography equipment - checked!
I am a pro - UNchecked!


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

Vtec44 said:


> I spend way to much money on photography equipment - checked!



That is actually the sign of an amateur. Pros don't spend any money on gear they can't pay within a few shoots...


----------



## 12sndsgood (May 9, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > I spend way to much money on photography equipment - checked!
> ...




yeah but not really any diffrence buying a camera with money i made from a non photography job versus buying a camera with money i made from a photography job.


----------



## spacefuzz (May 9, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > I spend way to much money on photography equipment - checked!
> ...



Why do I not believe this statement......


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

spacefuzz said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Vtec44 said:
> ...



Because you're an amateur...

Don't mean to be an a**hole but if you ever become a pro, you will get it.


----------



## Vtec44 (May 9, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > I spend way to much money on photography equipment - checked!
> ...



This is probably true.  Although, I always think of what I buy (photography related) in term of return of investment.  How much money will this piece of equipment earn for me in a specific time span, or throughout its life cycle?  Since I'm not a professional, my time span is much longer!  Hopefully the life cycle will just as long, if not longer.  lol  However, if photography is my only/primary source of income then I would be more cautious in buying expensive equipment that I won't make money back soon.  Then again, spending way too much money isn't necessary spending more money than you've made or spending more than you can pay for... since we're all knit picking in this thread.  lol


----------



## trcapro (May 9, 2012)

Defining a professional isn't quiet as easy as one might think. Technically, it really just means you get paid to do what you do. Realistically, the level of experience and skill also plays a role. In my personal opinion, there are a lot of people who fit into the "semi-professional" category. For example, an enthusiast that has been working to hone his or her skills for any number of years but does not have all the top-notch equipment or a degree in the field of photography. 

Personally, I think of myself as "semi-pro" leaning toward becoming professional.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (May 9, 2012)

Vtec44 said:


> Since I'm not a professional, my time span is much longer!



Very true. An amateur can withstand a much longer life cycle/profit cycle than a pro can. To a pro, a piece of gear is nothing more than a peice of gear and it must bring in money... somehow.


----------



## spacefuzz (May 9, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > c.cloudwalker said:
> ...



Thanks for that.... classy

Im sure I have done more cost / benefit studies than you ever have had need to and I know how it works.  It can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it.  Depends if you have rules in place at a corporate level....vs some guy at a sole proprietorship doing it on the back of a napkin.  Its a lot easier to smoke and mirrors justify that slick new piece of gear you want when its just you, so hence the I do not believe that statement is true. I think people want it to be true, but there is a difference between wants and reality.


----------



## Vtec44 (May 9, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Very true. An amateur can withstand a much longer life cycle/profit cycle than a pro can. To a pro, a piece of gear is nothing more than a peice of gear and it must bring in money... somehow.



Have we even narrowed down the definition of a pro vs amateur yet?  lol  Also, a photographer with photography related services as his primary source of income can also withstand life/profit cycle longer if his business is more profitable, versus a similar photographer with a not so profitable business.  So do we call the 2nd photographer an amateur because his business is not doing well?  So with that said, IMHO withstanding life/profit cycle has little to do with professional or amateur.


----------



## dcrowephoto (May 9, 2012)

I'm a full-time photographer (official title is photojournalist) making my sole income off of cameras since 2007.


----------



## spacefuzz (May 9, 2012)

Vtec44 said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Very true. An amateur can withstand a much longer life cycle/profit cycle than a pro can. To a pro, a piece of gear is nothing more than a peice of gear and it must bring in money... somehow.
> ...



dont forget to factor in all of the tax consequences! The piece might not pay for itself within a few shoots but it may be beneficial as a deduction, or depreciation, etc.


----------



## 12sndsgood (May 9, 2012)

for this post pro was defined by the OP as being basically photography being your sole income. or a little leeway if photography is your main scource of income.  For this post he didn't want to try and break it down to part time, or semi pro or whatever definition you can come up with. Most people should know wether the majority of there income comes from photography or not.


----------



## bazooka (May 9, 2012)

dcrowephoto said:


> I'm a full-time photographer (official title is photojournalist) making my sole income off of cameras since 2007.



No your not!  You only have 14 posts!!  :lmao:


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 9, 2012)

Takes me more than a few shoots to upgrade gear, as it does with most of the photographers I know.  Coming up with an extra $10-15k to buy new bodies as well as paying all the rest of the bills.  Pros buy gear when they can, and when they have the money, regardless of how long it takes to pay the stuff off, and in alot of the cases the gear is worthless within a couple of years.  I'm not living or working in the two shoot $15k world, not very often .


----------



## Hooligan Dan (May 9, 2012)

*raises hand

*avoids debate


----------



## chuasam (May 12, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > c.cloudwalker said:
> ...


I concur. I still own my gear but someday I'll be at the point where I don't even own the camera I'll use on the shoot. Someday.


----------



## JeremyDueckPhoto (Jun 13, 2012)

I have a full-time regular job plus ~30hrs a week with my photography business. http://www.jeremydueckphotography.com/


----------



## bunny99123 (Jun 13, 2012)

I am not a Pro. I am an amateur whom wants to learn.  I do make some income, but most of my photography is volunteer shoots for nonprofit groups. I make more money from graphics and enhancments.  To some it is clear cut to what they consider a Pro...Now days who really knows, with advancement in technology.  IMO...a good P&S can take quality photos.  A Pro does not make you a good or bad photographer.  I have seen some Pro's that blow me away, and some that boredom leads to not another photo to look at! Same situation with people who do it for a hobby or as a part-time income.  It is a simple question that is being asked, and makes a person wonder when  they read the posts. In the end, we all love taking pictures or we would not be on here


----------



## snowbear (Jun 13, 2012)

Amateur.


----------



## unpopular (Jun 13, 2012)

I do not get paid to make photographs, and I have no intention t ever get paid for my photographs outside a gallery.


----------



## yerlem (Jun 13, 2012)

Why does it have to be so complicated?? You know when someone asks "what do you do for a living?" if your answer is "I'm a photographer" then you should reply YES to the OPs question. If not, then you should reply NO. being good or bad at the job doesn't mean anything.

My answer is NO, I'm an ultra noob yeeeay


----------



## imagemaker46 (Jun 13, 2012)

It's because people like to try and put themselves in a catagory other than amateur or professional.  Some are semi-pro, some are promateurs, some get paid for one photo and they are part time professional.  They simply can't just say.  I am a professional or I am an amateur.

I am a professional photographer, it is what I do for a living.


----------



## Carny (Jun 13, 2012)

Amateur here.

I've never been paid to take a photo, but I have made enough money buying and selling photo gear to pay for everything I have.  Does that count for anything? lol

I can't believe how freaking ridiculous some people are.  Why get offended by such a simple question?


----------



## Solarflare (Jun 14, 2012)

This is just my new hobby. Not planning to make any money with it. I just wanna have fun.


----------



## unpopular (Jun 14, 2012)

I think the only time that knowing if someone is a professional or not is if the question has to do with business practices.


----------



## imagemaker46 (Jun 14, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I think the only time that knowing if someone is a professional or not is if the question has to do with business practices.



I agree, if someone is looking to hire a photographer they should expect to get a professional, and that has to do with the professional side of being in business.


----------



## Forkie (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm a photographer for a marketing/e-Commerce company, but I separate my work photography from my hobby photography.  The fact that I take photos for a living doesn't convince me that I'm a professional! 

However, if someone asks me what my job is, I say photographer.


----------



## rachibee (Jul 11, 2012)

I work as a photographer with a portrait company...I've only been at it 2 months, and to be honest I don't consider myself a professional photographer yet. I feel like I still have waaaay too much to learn and improve on. But then again, photography is one of those things where you are always learning, no matter how long you've been doing it. So maybe I only feel that way because I'm still in college and this is only a part-time job? Who knows. But even as someone who is PAID to take pictures...I'm just an "amateur who happened to get a part-time job doing what she loves to help pay for school".


----------



## skieur (Jul 11, 2012)

I am a professional media producer.

skieur


----------



## JAC526 (Jul 11, 2012)

Kolander said:


> Working mostly for an Internet portal, as photographer and graphic editor. Besides, reports on location for a fashion trademark. Assignments on the side, here and there.




I would like to put this forth as a potential good answer.  An answer of the type that maybe the OP was looking for?

The OP doesn't seem to want anyone's opinion on what constitutes a Pro but instead who thinks of themselves as a Pro.

Very confusing.


----------



## Seefutlung (Jul 12, 2012)

I was a photojournalist for 15 years.


----------



## Raian-san (Jul 12, 2012)

Still new, and learning.


----------



## cayto (Jul 12, 2012)

Amateur here 

now I do not think about getting paid for doing photography, think about learn and learn more and more


----------



## Bend The Light (Jul 12, 2012)

Not a professional. I'm a teacher.
But I have sold a couple, have a little studio, and have some customers who tell their friends. 
The money I charge goes to pay bills and help in the general household budget, but it's small compared to my proper job...I can't leave the proper job just yet, even though I really would like to.
I am not good enough for that just yet = realistic.
But people are willing to pay me for some pretty decent shots (in their eyes, anyway) so that's nice.


----------



## TheFantasticG (Jul 12, 2012)

480sparky said:


> vipgraphx said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah not looking to have a another long argument about opinion and or debates. Just wondering who does this stuff for a living on here. There is no hidden agenda or deeper read between the lines thing going on.Just a simple who is a working paid professional who makes their 100% income with a camera.
> ...



That's much more accute. I make my living from electrician work on off shore drilling rigs, but I'm not a licensed journeyman because it's not required by any regulations. Went to school for it, got about 2,000 hours on land under a master before I went overseas. But, I'm a professional electrician as I have been doing it 5+ years, it is my sole source of income, and it pays the mortgage, car payments, utilities, food on the table, and pays for me to be a photography amateur, as in "one who does for the love of it." Needless to say, I don't love being an electrician, but more importantly, I don't hate it. I find it quite boring but easily understood and worked with. So, no, I'm not a "professional photographer who derives his sole income on photography."


----------



## tedfoto (Jul 13, 2012)

I am an audio-visual technician [events, conferences, recording studios, film-post, commercial installs], but I use my camera for lots of things...sometimes it means money and sometimes not.  I'm more and more curious as to how to make money in this field, and the cynicism in this thread is very discouraging.  

It sounds like the cheap new technology is squeezing out the need for full-time pros, so now most are fitting into that semi-pro-hobbyist category.  How valuable are skill, talent, and creativity when the gear barrier is lowered to let in the everyday consumers?

I've done a few weddings with another semi-pro, and it may just eventually ruin weddings for me just because of the repetition and I can't stand the Cupid Shuffle.

I see things like instagram,  and wonder how it will change the demand for photographers with depth of knowledge and experience.  How lightroom has completely flattened the learning curve for post-processing.  The power and ease of the tools makes expertise available to anyone.

If I was a full-time photographer with any reliance on the jobs that bestbuy pros are doing themselves, I think I would be cynical myself.

Where's the silver lining?


----------



## imagemaker46 (Jul 13, 2012)

Experience and skill still means a lot to some people that hire professionals.  The cell phone generation for the most part hasn't got a clue and really show little respect for the professionals that laid the groundwork in photography.  I grew up respecting the generation before me, I understood what experience meant.  

Now it's all about "what kind of camera do they own"  If it's a big one, we'll hire them, they must know how to use it.  Problem is, most don't.


----------



## JoeMcGuiggin (Jul 18, 2012)

I worked for a company based out of Boston, I worked 40 + hours a week and took photos basically the whole time I was at work.  I also sold the photos that I took for the company.  I got paid minimum wage and made the company on average $800 dollars a day.  I no longer work that that company because even tho I guess I would look good on my resume, I'd rather get paid good money for my skills then pretty much make nothing after I paid for parking,gas, etc.  So I'd say I was a professional, now I am an out of work professional haha.


----------



## twocolor (Jul 19, 2012)

WOW, loaded question!

I would like to think I'm "Pro".  I have my own studio, licensed through the city, state, federal gov., I shoot paid sessions daily and between sessions and editing, I work over 40 hours a week.  I made $40,000 last year, payed taxes on every dime I made,   BUT, I have 5 kids, and a large mortgage, and without my husbands income, we'd be broke!  My income pays for vacations, clothes, and other "non-essential" fun items.

If you were to ask my clients, I hope they would say that I treated them as a professional, and that I gave them a professional product and experience.


----------



## ceejtank (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm a hybrid as well.  I work one job, take pics as a second job.


----------



## durhamskywriter (Jul 22, 2012)

i suppose you can say i'm a hobbyist when not working as a professional. i take photographs for my newspaper and visitors & convention bureau and do freelance work for local nonprofit agencies and random folk. for a couple of years i was the 'official' photographer for our local baseball park. that was a blast!


----------

