# Racism, artistic brilliance, or coincidence?



## Fiendish Astronaut (Mar 28, 2008)

http://gawker.com/5004715/time-for-leibovitz-to-confess









> I had thought this was a fuss about nothing. But when you look at the images side-by-side, it's pretty obvious that _Vogue's_ latest cover featuring James LeBron and Gisele Bundchen is indeed a sly homage by Annie Leibovitz to _King Kong_. In fact, the references by photographer Annie Leibowitz to one image in particular, identified earlier this week by a tipster to Jezebel, are unmistakeable. This First World War army recruitment posterurging loyal Americans to destroy a "mad brute"features a Kong-like gorilla with a right arm holding a weapon and a left gripping a virginal white beauty. It's much like the position basketball star LeBron assumes on the _Vogue_ cover.
> Veteran Leibovitz, the go-to photographer at Conde Nast titles such as _Vanity Fair_ and _Vogue_, has still not acknowledged her inspiration. (_Portfolio's_ Jeff Bercovici, in an inspired journalistic move, actually thinks to put in a call.) But Leibowitz is known for borrowing iconic imagery from old movies.
> Let's assume the _Vogue_ cover was indeed an homage to the xenophobic wartime poster. There's nothing so reprehensible about that: it's a photographic commentary on the ancestral American fear of black men, an interesting and provocative idea.
> But here's the real question. Had the magazine knowingly intended to begin a debate about racial imagery, it would have at least devoted some text to the issue, and demonstrated awareness of the controversy it was inviting. Instead, _Vogue_ seems to have been caught unawares. Did Annie Leibovitz gloss over her cover concept in order to get it past the generally conservative _Vogue_ editors? If so, they're going to blame her for the mess in which the Conde Nast magazine finds itself.


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## RMThompson (Mar 28, 2008)

Interesting. I certinaly don't think Leibowitz nor the magazine can be accused of any RACISM. It's also certinaly NOT coincidence.

Is it BRILLIANCE then? Maybe. The iconic images certainly are moving, but there is a sly difference in the pictures that really changes the idea.

In the first image the "Kong" is HOLDING the woman, capturing her. In the new image, her feet were on the ground, indicating that she is in control. Furthermore she is facing the camera, smiling, and NOT in distress.


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## Tasmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

Racial imagery? This is hillarious. The US didn't fight "black men" in WWI, they fought the Germans. Unless LeBron is of german ancestry, there is nothing wrong with this cover. No doubt this is inspired by the WWI poster, and it is successful in paying homage.

Racism here is only in the subconscious of people who think that there must be a racist undertone because there is an ape and a black man. This reminds me of [URL="http://www.southparkzone.com/episode.php?vid=408]that great South Park Episode[/URL].


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## Puscas (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok, but why is nobody protesting that Gisele has pulled her dress up much higher up than the woman in the original picture....what kind of homage is this.


:mrgreen:




pascal


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## confucious (Mar 28, 2008)

If you want to take it a step further...let's put most of the meaning in the bloodied, much used, club in the Apes hand.  You will notice it says "Kultur" - meaning culture.  What this implies is the "beast" is killing, and has killed, with it's culture (club).  Who is it killing?  Why, white culture, as is implied by the captive white woman.  The threat of this ape and it's culture is further emphasized by the caption "Destroy this  Mad Brute".

   Now - translate this into the recent "white & black" image - the club is directly represented by the basketball.   Basketball is certainly a very "black" sport in North America, no doubt about it...it is very much a part of Black culture.  So - if indeed there was a relation, is the photographer saying that contemporary black culture is killing white culture?  Is she/he suggesting "white culture" has something to fear...that it should "Destroy this Mad Beast"?

   Seems like an "Uh-oh" to me...will be interesting to see what happens


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## ScottS (Mar 28, 2008)

confucious said:


> If you want to take it a step further...let's put most of the meaning in the bloodied, much used, club in the Apes hand. You will notice it says "Kultur" - meaning culture. What this implies is the "beast" is killing, and has killed, with it's culture (club). Who is it killing? Why, white culture, as is implied by the captive white woman. The threat of this ape and it's culture is further emphasized by the caption "Destroy this Mad Brute".
> 
> Now - translate this into the recent "white & black" image - the club is directly represented by the basketball. Basketball is certainly a very "black" sport in North America, no doubt about it...it is very much a part of Black culture. So - if indeed there was a relation, is the photographer saying that contemporary black culture is killing white culture? Is she/he suggesting "white culture" has something to fear...that it should "Destroy this Mad Beast"?
> 
> Seems like an "Uh-oh" to me...will be interesting to see what happens


 
Interesting interpretation.

 Its a picture... 

Oh and it looks like the girl isnt in any distress at all. :er:

Just silly...


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## Phranquey (Mar 28, 2008)

Racism still exists, it is a sad fact. But THIS??? C'mon.

I am getting pretty tired of people calling things racist at the drop of a hat. It's getting to be the "crying wolf" syndrome, and when it is for real, it no longer gets the true attention that it should because people are getting sick of hearing about it.


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## confucious (Mar 28, 2008)

> Oh and it looks like the girl isnt in any distress at all.



   AAhhh - but maybe that's the creator's point - it's not through brute violence that the "beast" is destroying "white" culture, but through the domination and "dilution" of the race..the old "they're stealing our women".  The woman indeed looks happy - is the happy union of white and black the beast that threatens "white society"?

Hehehehhe - Everything I am pointing out COULD be read into this - so could a lot of other things.  I do not seriously think this was the intention at all - but given the two images, it takes mere minutes to draw the parallels.  Thought I would add an interesting view to an interesting topic :er:.


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## Alex_B (Mar 28, 2008)

actually, she looks happy, and he looks like screaming in pain .. as if she just stomped on his feet.

So my interpretation is that the image on the right hand sinde actually depicts a black man suppressed by a white female.

he is so in pain that he even dropped that ball.


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## Iron Flatline (Mar 28, 2008)

I can't believe how big his feet look in those sneakers next to her little feet.


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## Emerana (Mar 28, 2008)

So to me it does look like she used this as inspiration and my take on it is this...racist?  I dont know...I wouldnt jump to that conclusion.  But if I were that guy I would be totally bummed people thought I looked like that scary monkey


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## Socrates (Mar 28, 2008)

Sure it's racism and she should file a law suit... A big law suit.  I've had enough of whites being belittled in the name of art.


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## Alex_B (Mar 28, 2008)

oh, and coming back to the comparison of the two images. I cannot see any inspiration. both poses are quite different in many aspects, and also both are very cliche and very far from anything unusual. They are _not special poses_ but very common.

You could easily find lots of unrelated images, put them side-by-side and then say 'ohh, it is pretty obvious'


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## MX962 (Mar 29, 2008)

This realy tires my mind!Now we have to consult a lawyer on composition and subject matter,I realy wouldnt read to far into this,I have to agrea with Alex B


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## GeorgeUK (Mar 29, 2008)

Looks like there are number of individuals out there with time on their hands and nothing to moan/complain about.



> had thought this was a fuss about nothing. But when you look at the images side-by-side, it's pretty obvious that _Vogue's_ latest cover featuring James LeBron and Gisele Bundchen is indeed a sly homage by Annie Leibovitz to _King Kong_.


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## Tasmaster (Mar 29, 2008)

GeorgeUK that part was so over-the-top that it didn't even register until you quoted it.


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## Helen B (Mar 29, 2008)

_"Racism, artistic brilliance, or coincidence?"_

None of the above three. It's just a cover of Vogue, intended to sell copies of the magazine, with an edgy surface so that the readers can feel comfortably and smugly hip. Leibovitz's recent work has been desperately pedestrian, and this is no exception. 

Best,
Helen

PS I've seen the next frame she took. It's much funnier. Gisele's heel has made contact with LeBron's crotch, and he has knocked the ball off its stand.


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## rob91 (Mar 29, 2008)

The image of King Kong isn't exclusive to that army ad with the caption "Destory This Mad Brute". Take away the caption and it's just an imitation of pop culture, and yes, Lebron is suitably king kongesque for the imitation to work.



Helen B said:


> _"Racism, artistic brilliance, or coincidence?"_
> 
> None of the above three. It's just a cover of Vogue, intended to sell copies of the magazine, with an edgy surface so that the readers can feel comfortably and smugly hip. Leibovitz's recent work has been desperately pedestrian, and this is no exception.



Well said Helen.


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## Rick Waldroup (Mar 29, 2008)

Helen B said:


> _"Racism, artistic brilliance, or coincidence?"_
> 
> None of the above three. It's just a cover of Vogue, intended to sell copies of the magazine, with an edgy surface so that the readers can feel comfortably and smugly hip. Leibovitz's recent work has been desperately pedestrian, and this is no exception.
> 
> ...


 
Helen, what do you think happened to Annie?  Is it age?  Is it that she has become settled in to her status position in life?  Or has she become an icon that is now seemingly easy to ridicule?


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## Alex_B (Mar 29, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Helen, what do you think happened to Annie?  Is it age?  Is it that she has become settled in to her status position in life?  Or has she become an icon that is now seemingly easy to ridicule?



she also has to serve what the market demands ... and in many cases demand is declining for interesting artsy stuff. Just give them easy images, ... many of the people running the magazines do not understand fine nuances anymore.


(ok, I know I am not Helen, but still I wanted to comment  )


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## Clutch (Mar 29, 2008)

If that magazine article were the worst type of racism in the world that can provoke all this discussion what a wonderful world we'd live in.

Living in a rural area of south Louisiana I see racism still on a shocking level. Hearing someone use the "N" word is a daily occurrence. I work in an industrial vocation and it's commonplace - even the norm and expected- that the faces in the office are all white, the supervisors and foreman are all white or nearly so. The "grunt" work in the shop is easily 80% African-American and Mexicans on work visas. The only African-American office employee is the owner's wife's assistant. Though not a bad job for a single mother it's a subservient role. The only explanation I have for this commonplace practice is racism. This is but one paragraph mentioning just one aspect of an immensely complex social disorder. 

Watching close hand what happened in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina (I live 75 miles from NO, about 55 miles straight line) the gap between middle class whites and poor blacks was clearly delineated. Middle class white neighborhoods in New Orleans have not only come back to life but even beginning to thrive. The poor working class neighborhoods of New Orleans are destroyed and being threatened with complete destruction by bulldozer. Again, it's so complex I can't even take the time or effort to write it all out.

However, the problem will never go away unless it's addressed and at the least I commend everyone in here who has made wise, unbiased and compassionate comment(s). You are part of the solution and not part of the problem. 

Remember, photography has done wonders for awakening all of us to the sadness and unjust nature of racism. 

FYI... I'm as white as they come - Cajun-German ancestry - and if I can see it with my blue eyes then it should be pretty obvious I'd think.

Thanks for letting me vent on/off subject






_Credit: Fact-esque_





_Credit: The Black Republican_


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## Socrates (Mar 29, 2008)

Clutch said:


> Remember, photography has done wonders for awakening all of us to the sadness and unjust nature of racism.


  You posted photos that are not only forty years old but also out of context.  Why?


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## Clutch (Mar 29, 2008)

Socrates said:


> You posted photos that are not only forty years old but also out of context.  Why?



I don't think they were out of context with the comment you quoted. "Done" would denote already or partly accomplished as opposed to "doing" as in a work in progress.

Yes, the photographs are 40ish years old but that in no way diminishes the story being told in the images themselves. Images like the two I posted helped tremendously to raise public awareness. Nothing, including racism, is as ugly when you don't have to see it. 

Photographs can be timeless in the story they tell or in how they affect us. Take Joe Rosenthal's image of five marines raising the U.S. flag over Iwo Jima. It's over sixty years old  yet still griping in it's ability to tell a story in a single image. 

Just my opinion but the more of the 5 Ws (who, what, when, where & why) a photograph can answer the more interesting the photo becomes. 

We all have our own take on things.


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## Iron Flatline (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks Clutch, I like your post and agree with your sentiment on this.


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## Rick Waldroup (Mar 29, 2008)

Alex_B said:


> she also has to serve what the market demands ... and in many cases demand is declining for interesting artsy stuff. Just give them easy images, ... many of the people running the magazines do not understand fine nuances anymore.
> 
> 
> (ok, I know I am not Helen, but still I wanted to comment  )


 
Thanks Alex, I always welcome your take on things.


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## Socrates (Mar 29, 2008)

Clutch said:


> I don't think they were out of context with the comment you quoted. "Done" would denote already or partly accomplished as opposed to "doing" as in a work in progress.
> 
> Yes, the photographs are 40ish years old but that in no way diminishes the story being told in the images themselves. Images like the two I posted helped tremendously to raise public awareness. Nothing, including racism, is as ugly when you don't have to see it.
> 
> ...



Your photos were out of context because they did not, in any way, relate the words in your post.

After forty years, the photos DO lose their validity when you try to use them to prove your opinions regarding conditions today.


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## salexander867 (Mar 30, 2008)

One can see racism wherever one wants to see racism. Maybe I am missing something, but the Army recruiting poster is using a familiar social image (King Kong) to represent a threat to America (Kong is stepping on America). If one recognizes the German military head gear and the fact that culture is spelled with a K, it becomes obvious, especially in the context of what was going on during that period, that Kong represents the German threat (not blacks). Was the Army in a war against the black population? Why would they be recruiting soldiers based on a fear of black culture?
I think some might be offended by the tie between Kong and a strong black man (the article is Secrets of the Best Bodies), but I dont think the photo has any meaning beyond a reference to an iconic image. You can read into it whatever you want. One could make the argument that Leibovitz was commenting on how the hip-hop culture is destroying the NBA. But then one would expect the article to speak to that issue. The article is about fitness. 
The bottom line for me is that Leibovitz was just trying to recreate a piece of history or perhaps she just subconsciously stole the image. How often do you see photos and realize that you have seen the same setup before?


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## Fiendish Astronaut (Mar 30, 2008)

I wasn't sure about this - but really interesting responses. I think this goes to show how interesting photography can be and what a great art form it is. I've no idea if Annie meant this image to look similar and even if she did I'm certain she wasn't trying to make a racist point. But then if she did make this deliberately similar she must also have been making some statement about racial imagery - such a comparison is just too close to the bone to be something she'd be happy to use as an aesthetic template and nothing more.


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## Mike_E (Mar 30, 2008)

Looks like another case of creative plagiarism to me.


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## passerby (Mar 31, 2008)

The racial profiling by one group to another group has no scientific foundation to support their claim. I have chats few times in person with individuals who have the feeling of superiority over others. It did not take long to undo their dogma. Most of these racist individuals are un informed individuals, who are in the midst of confusion trying to find their lack of identity.  It is "feel good" by doing self brainwashing - that there are inferior groups in existance out there. Discussing it among themselves about other people as inferiors is an uplifting method.

*IF* the photographer or any person who invented these posters above had racist intention or inclination in it, than I think he/she never heard what is the meaning of DNA called Mitochondrya, or Mitochondrion. 

Here is the story of little animals known as Syrian hamster that numbering in millions today world wide. They are not one colours, so what are their origins?

*All Syrian hamsters in captivity (*today*)  are descended from a mother and her twelve pups who were dug out of a burrow near Aleppo, Syria, in 1930*_._

http://www.midlandhamsterclub.co.uk/hamster/syrian.html


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