# Leica Users Question



## raphaelaaron (Dec 10, 2011)

I'm trying to decide which Leica M film body to purchase. If you shoot with one, which you would recommend and why?

So far, the M6 and the MP are my frontrunners. Perhaps that may change?

I know I'm probably better off posting this on Rangefinderforum or something, but it's worth a shot here.


----------



## Already.used (Dec 11, 2011)

What is your budget? The lenses are not cheap either. 

The M2, M3, M4 (but not the later M4's) are the earlier "clockwork" cameras. They can be nearly infinitely CLA'd. The later cameras are not quiet the same but still work great, have been in use for a long time. 

I would second any later version being for an M6 or MP. These cameras have more framelines. Certain M2's and M4's (maybe only M4-p or M4-2, can't remember) can be converted to M6 framelines.

What would I choose? M2, simple, and if you get the right module you update to M6 framelines. 

Between the M6 and MP? Uh so long as I got the .85 magnification it wouldn't matter a lot. The M6 offers a more simple version without the TTL. M6 also has a more standard rewind knob if that is your thing.


----------



## raphaelaaron (Dec 11, 2011)

Already.used said:


> What is your budget? The lenses are not cheap either.
> 
> The M2, M3, M4 (but not the later M4's) are the earlier "clockwork" cameras. They can be nearly infinitely CLA'd. The later cameras are not quiet the same but still work great, have been in use for a long time.
> 
> ...



thanks for the response! the info was very helpful. 

i was considering the m2 or m3 as well from the get-go, but wanted TTL capabilities. that's the only reason i didn't run at the opportunity. i also have a summilux 35 asph for my current M, which is the digital 8.2


----------



## Helen B (Dec 11, 2011)

Do you want TTL metering and flash control, or just TTL metering?

I started with an M2 back in the 70's when Leicas were comparatively cheap and liked it very much. Now I have a couple of M6s - one early pre TTL flash and one very late one - and a couple of M7s. If I was going to buy now, I'd go for an MP. The late M6s had a more sensitive meter than the early ones.

Best,
Helen


----------



## Already.used (Dec 11, 2011)

I guess that is the question... TTL flash or metering?

You do not want an M3 because there are no 35mm framelines (50 is widest on them). M2's and M4's do have them.

Frankly the metering on all the leica's is nothing to special. A lot of people with older Leicas use one of these. Voigtlander VC II

See the problem is without matrix or spot metering you have to interpret the scene anyway... When you use your M8.2 you can look at the picture to know if exposure was correct or not, and take another. With film you need to start thinking about how much the meter wants to go to gray, how much backlight, blah blah... A VC II meter is only a starting point, but no less than the Leica's with metering. Also what speed of film? If you are just street shooting with 400asa then you won't even really need a meter for anything. Daylight films are hard to truly screw up exposure on these days.


----------



## fotoshooter (Dec 11, 2011)

I prefer the M2, M3, and M4 over the newer versions.

A clean M3 would be your best bet to start with.


----------



## usayit (Dec 11, 2011)

First thing first...

What focal lengths?  This is important because it will determine what magnification and frame lines you will need/want.  This will also determine the viewfinder magnification.  

M3 and M2 for example are very similar with different viewfinders for different famelines.

M6 (there are dozens of variations) also have different viewfinder magnification and finishes.  There's also the classic versus TTL version.   

I found the M3 very enjoyable to use with a simple Voigtlander VC Meter.   My now sold M6 titanium classic had a rangefinder patch that flared and a busy viewfinder.  M7 was really nice.. quite a bit "advanced" over the M3.   Its shutter dial turns the same direction as the newer digitals.  AE on the M7 comes in handy.  MP is a marvel of craftsmanship in today's time when everything is made quickly with cost always making decisions on quality.  

My choice... I'd probably pass up an MP or the M6 and get both an M3 and M2 (I prefer to bodies for film)...   I bet you can find both for the price of an MP.   


Honestly.. I'd also look at voigtlander bessa rangefinders as well.   There's some really exciting options there and the quality (shared with my Epson R-D1) is pretty darn good.


----------



## usayit (Dec 11, 2011)

btw...  this is a good summary

Leica M Guide


----------



## usayit (Dec 11, 2011)

raphaelaaron said:


> ...but wanted TTL capabilities.



Hexar RF should also be of interest to you as well...    M mount with a camera body that feels more "built around" and "integrated with" AE.


----------



## Helen B (Dec 11, 2011)

Already.used said:


> Frankly the metering on all the leica's is nothing to special. A lot of people with older Leicas use one of these. Voigtlander VC II
> 
> See the problem is without matrix or spot metering you have to interpret the scene anyway... When you use your M8.2 you can look at the picture to know if exposure was correct or not, and take another. With film you need to start thinking about how much the meter wants to go to gray, how much backlight, blah blah... A VC II meter is only a starting point, but no less than the Leica's with metering. Also what speed of film? If you are just street shooting with 400asa then you won't even really need a meter for anything. Daylight films are hard to truly screw up exposure on these days.



With experience you should find the meter on the M6, M7 and MP to be perfectly good for exposing reversal film, which is just as demanding as ever, never mind the much more forgiving negative film. The advantage of the internal meter in the Leicas is that they are TTL, with a clearly defined measuring area.

The meters on other models varied a lot: the CLE's metering system was seriously flawed (in my opinion - the rest of the camera was excellent) but the M5 and the CL had good meters, with a narrow measuring angle.


----------



## raphaelaaron (Dec 11, 2011)

usayit said:


> First thing first...
> 
> What focal lengths?  This is important because it will determine what magnification and frame lines you will need/want.  This will also determine the viewfinder magnification.
> 
> ...



the widest at 35mm, and 50mm, and 75mm.

i still do like the TTL version, as it keeps me from having to carry my handheld with me. faster shots, especially if i'm moving around the city. the VC meter is not something i'd want to have on the camera. though it is quite cool looking, i feel it could get rather bulky for my taste.

i actually do have a Bessa R2A on top of my M8.2
they are decent bodies, but i grew up shooting cameras made of metal. i'll probably be selling it very soon. plus, no one can deny the feel of a solid leica in the hand. 

the epson RD-1 doesn't shoot the largest compared to my M8.2 plus it's a smaller crop sensor compared to the M8.2, so i figured that's going backwards in a sense.


----------



## raphaelaaron (Dec 11, 2011)

Helen B said:


> Already.used said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly the metering on all the leica's is nothing to special. A lot of people with older Leicas use one of these. Voigtlander VC II
> ...



really? one of the reasons i was deterred from the M5 (besides the hefty body) was that i was told the meters weren't as developed as the next M6 model. at least that's what some of the guys at the used dept at b&h told me


----------



## raphaelaaron (Dec 11, 2011)

Already.used said:


> I guess that is the question... TTL flash or metering?
> 
> You do not want an M3 because there are no 35mm framelines (50 is widest on them). M2's and M4's do have them.
> 
> ...



that's a good point. thought i do shoot a variety of film speeds, and adjust my days accordingly haha. though i feel the TTL would still be beneficial.


----------



## usayit (Dec 12, 2011)

raphaelaaron said:
			
		

> the widest at 35mm, and 50mm, and 75mm.
> 
> i still do like the TTL version, as it keeps me from having to carry my handheld with me. faster shots, especially if i'm moving around the city. the VC meter is not something i'd want to have on the camera. though it is quite cool looking, i feel it could get rather bulky for my taste.
> 
> ...



Given TTL, Leica preference, and the M8 counterpart, I think your decision is pretty much narrowed down to the M7. 

- Its the latest Leica has to offer in terms of film.
- The shutter dial turns the same direction as your M8.  So the operation is the same feel.
- The TTL metering operation is predictable (actually better than the m8 and m9).
- Quality is Leica.
- Flash TTL and operation is better than previous.
- Not collectors favorite so the prices wont be inflated.
- AE auto with lock
- most likely a CLA wont be needed.

My recommendation would be to find one with the .85 viewfinder since your preference seems to be with the 50mm.  The highier magnification makes it easier to focus much like the M3.  Its also close enough to 1 that you can open both eyes to see the world quickly or shoot without getting a head ache (which was my favorite feature of the epson rd1 equipped with 1:1 viewfinder).


----------



## Helen B (Dec 12, 2011)

raphaelaaron said:


> Helen B said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



Remember that I haven't recommended the M5 for you. I like the meters in the M6, M7 and MP. The meter is the M5 has some advantages over them, but it is an earlier design type that was used for the CL then abandoned, even for the CLE (the type was also used on other non-Leica cameras before the M5).

I agree with Usayit on the M7. I find myself using the M7s in preference to the M6s, though I never use them in auto - I use them like I would use an M6.

The TTL question we are asking is whether you want a TTL meter for continuous light only, or for both continuous and flash. The 'non-TTL' M6s still have TTL metering, just not for flash. It's a strange name.

Best,
Helen


----------



## raphaelaaron (Dec 12, 2011)

usayit said:


> raphaelaaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Helen B said:


> raphaelaaron said:
> 
> 
> > Helen B said:
> ...



Wow, had no idea. I don't mind it with flash, as I wouldn't see myself using it with the leica. My 5D is for stuff like that ;p Thank you both for your help. I hadn't really considered the M7 because I heard it wasn't entirely a manual camera as Helen pointed out. However, I don't exactly have to use the auto setting. I will look into the M7 then.


----------



## Helen B (Dec 12, 2011)

The thing with the M7 is that you need to have the habit of carrying spare batteries, because of the electronically-timed shutter.


----------



## Already.used (Dec 12, 2011)

All meters perform relatively similar once you are aware of how accurate it is with gray card testing, when they have similar EV ratings. It is more about how you use them; knowing more about where to point and lock exposure (or set to). The procedure is about the same, particularly with wide lenses. What I am getting at is I am not sure I would let a meter deter me from using a camera I preferred otherwise unless I wanted to shoot slide film. 

In street shooting you have to accept semi poor metering without matrix and a wide lens for many shots. Unless you have spot metering and AE, high contrast scenes can give the reading you don't want on any center weight meter and a wide lens. When you  use a 50mm it removes a lot of this and the meter becomes more useful. With the 50mm and 90mm, doing portraits with high contrast/light differentiation shots you will be doing it all manually and not relying on an overall reading anyway so the use of particular center weight isn't going to be that much more useful. 

To get real blunt... I recommend the camera you believe you will like the feel of in your hands, and the operation of using. For me I am no longer interested in my Contax G2 even though I can whip out shots way faster than anyone doing it manual. It has nothing to do with the viewfinder or anything like that. It is purely based on the fact that I would rather miss shots but have fun doing it by twisting knobs, taking readings, throwing in some quick guess work, all of that. I don't get paid for catching all the quintessential moments so why should I be in a hurry if I don't enjoy it? This may not be for you, but I think presenting the point is important especially since you are deciding on film camera when you already have a digital that can fill and capture every moment to your whim; it just seems a more methodical easy going approach might be what you could get out of film since you have the opposite.


----------



## Robert_Maxey (Dec 28, 2011)

I like the M4. The first Leica I sold was an M4, the first one I bought was an M4 and a bit later, I added a CL. I love rangefinder cameras. 

I'll always gravitate towards the M4. though.

I am thinking about another Leica and going completely Visoflex. No more SLRs. Just Stereo Realists, 4x5, 8x10 and perhaps another SWC.


----------



## fotoshooter (Dec 28, 2011)

Robert_Maxey said:


> I am thinking about another Leica and going completely Visoflex.



As a Visoflex user (200mm and 400mm Telyts) I would strongly suggest a monopod or tripod..


----------

