# Can we please get a minimum of objectivity???



## deudeu (May 18, 2008)

I am very tired of a lot of people on these forums that just sound like Canon and Nikon salesmen and are lacking any type of objectivity, and are giving advice to people and just don't make any sense.

I know there has been plenty of arguments about this but I am starting to be fed up with stupid people. I have a lot of time at work, so i spend a lot of time on forums, mostly talking about politics and photography. You would think that the photography forums would be a place where people would be a little more open minded since we are talking about an art and it's tools, not about ideology. 

Anyways, I think that some things need to be set straight, even though it seams some people will never listen.

YES, Nikon and Canon have, so far, been coming up with *professional* bodies and most of the other companies have not. 

YES, for the expert level cameras, until recently, that IQ on both of those brand camera was slightly higher.

This being said, the DSLR market has been going up the roof and there are some consequences to that. 

The first one is that there is more and more offers on the market. Olympus, Sony, Pentax (and Samsung) have been working on their offer and diversifying it. All of those companies offer some interesting bodies that can take some pictures that are just as good as what you can do with Canon or Nikon. 

As far as full format cameras are concerned, shortly, Canon and Nikon will have to deal with Sony and Samsung (thus probably Pentax as well). The same way the APS-C cameras of Sony and Pentax are just as good as the Canon or Nikon equivalent, the FF ones will probably be just as good. 

As far as lenses are concerned, the two big ones do have a larger offer available for *new lenses*. But the old lenses should be taken into consideration, and this makes a difference.

Pentax, has had the largest increase in marketshare in Japan last year. This  is true because they offer affordable quality cameras and lenses and because Japanese people sure know about cameras. I suspect that this trend will keep going, not only for Pentax but for the non Canon or Nikon cameras in general.

So *PLEASE*, when you give advice to newbies about what system to get, take all this into consideration. Don't tell people that if they go for something else than Canon or Nikon they will outgrow their system because it is simply not true. Plus, if you outgrow something like a K20D that means that you should be making very big money with your pictures and you will be able to afford some other system if you wish so. 

On a final note, Samsung just patented a system that resets the pixels when they get filled up. It then counts the number of times each pixels got filled up and adds it to whatever value the pixel has at the end of the exposure. This makes the dynamic range virtually unlimited... Where were Canon and Nikon on this one?

Sorry for the long rant... It is most likely not needed, and it will most likely serve no purpose, but i am just tired of those people who lack all type of objectivity and are for Canon or Nikon just because it is the first system they've picked up.

EDIT: Sorry if I did not mention Panasonic, olympus, leica (digilux not the rangefinder), Fuji, or Sigma. Those companies also offer some very interesting cameras and should not be dismissed!


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## rooky (May 18, 2008)

So you are basically saying that we shouldnt have an opinion or give one unless it takes every possible product out there into consideration?  Why cant we just have an opinion and if somehas a better one, then they can add theirs.  Isnt that what forums are all about?  Better yet, might be better that you spend even more time on here so you can respond to everypost with the utmost of accuracy.  

I think you should relax.  

The people that get one here and post opinions or advice are just trying to help.  And many of us don't have time to study everything.  It is a give and take.  Personnally, I simply appreciate as many opinions as I can get.  Even if they do lean one way or another.  I'm a grown man, I can decide whats important for me and follow up.


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## KOrmechea (May 18, 2008)

deudeu said:


> I am very tired of a lot of people on these forums that just sound like Canon and Nikon salesmen and are lacking any type of objectivity...



When recommending products, people tend to recommend those they have experience with.  The fact that most people around here recommend Canon or Nikon equipment is due to the fact that most here _use_ Canon or Nikon equipment.  It's what they know.  Would you recommend a product you've had little to no experience with?

Those that shoot other brands also tend to speak-up when questions arise.  The forum may be biased, but it's only because the market is...


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## deudeu (May 18, 2008)

People are allowed to have an opinion, and I value it.

Exemples of what people should say to express their opinion: "I really like the D80, it's been treating me well". "If you take a lot of wide angle pictures and consider buying a Full Frame soon, be aware that only Canon and Nikon offer some at the moment". "I don't think that the lense choice available for X brand is sufficient, this brand seams better". This is totally acceptable.

Exemples of things that really annoy me: "why don't you buy a real system?" "Only Canon/Nikon makes real cameras", "if you go for this brand you will be sorry later"...


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## deudeu (May 18, 2008)

KOrmechea said:


> When recommending products, people tend to recommend those they have experience with.  The fact that most people around here recommend Canon or Nikon equipment is due to the fact that most here _use_ Canon or Nikon equipment.  It's what they know.  Would you recommend a product you've had little to no experience with?
> 
> Those that shoot other brands also tend to speak-up when questions arise.  The forum may be biased, but it's only because the market is...



And then there is those people who jump on a thread call "E-410 or K200D" and say "no man, you should go for the XTi" and then I am annoyed. Sharing your experience with what you own is different than trashing everything else. 

It is true that this thread aimed at a minority, but a minority that i tend to be irritated with and that should be informed.


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## Sw1tchFX (May 18, 2008)

[/quote]only Pentax can be trusted on the long term to keep their mount.





> Hmmm.....
> 
> You can mount almost every single F-mount Nikon lens made since about 1950 on any Nikon F-mount body and it will work perfectly fine. If they're AI'd, they'll even meter on cameras such as the D200/300, and D2/3. That's almost 60 years and counting with no sign of Nikon changing their mount any time soon, and with AF being in existence for almost 30 years now, why change now?
> 
> ...


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## deudeu (May 18, 2008)

> Hmmm.....
> 
> You can mount almost every single F-mount Nikon lens made since about 1950 on any Nikon F-mount body and it will work perfectly fine. If they're AI'd, they'll even meter on cameras such as the D200/300, and D2/3. That's almost 60 years and counting with no sign of Nikon changing their mount any time soon, and with AF being in existence for almost 30 years now, why change now?



I thought the old lenses didn't metered on any of the bodies. I learn something everyday. 

I know it is all subjective. Everything is. Objectivity arises when all the opinions are combined together. But in order to attain that you need to respect the opinions of others.


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## Sw1tchFX (May 18, 2008)

I think you're over analyzing this


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## dslrchat (May 18, 2008)

I highly doubt anyone here is getting paid by any manuf to boost sales.
That being said, In My Honest Opinion, it seems you are asking people to hold back on their personal opinions and experience. Which really defeats the purpose of forums.
Granted, everyone asking a question needs to take the answers/reply as an Opinion and Not fact.

This is how a forum works.

Not Knockin, just my Opinion.


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## MarcusM (May 18, 2008)

As others have stated, people give recommendations *mostly* based on what they know firsthand or based on their own experiences. If they know Canon or Nikon, and they like their current system, then that is what they will recommend.

If they say things like "get a real system" (referring to Nikon or Canon), then who cares? Comments like that are usually taken with a grain of salt anyway, right? People are going to do their research and they'll figure out what they want. If someone is dumb enough to be sold on comments like that, well then that's their problem.


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## Battou (May 18, 2008)

You need to bare in mind that there are not really that many people shooting on multiple brands of body of the same era and classification at the same time. Most of us use one camera at a time be it Nikon, Canon, Leica, Sony, Samsung, Poleroid or what ever. People are going to issue their advice around what they know in the hopes of being most helpful. Advising a person to go out and spend a grand on a camera you can not tell them how to use if need be is just plain foolhardy and irresponsable. 

Canon guys are always going to say buy the Canon, Nikon guys are always going to say buy the Nikon. This way after the person buys the camera and comes back with a question, the same people who advised it can also tell them how to make it work.

I put a lot of effort into being unbias in general queries, but when it comes down to suggesting cameras it will always be the cameras I know full well how to operate...and they are thirty year old Canons.


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## Garbz (May 19, 2008)

Sw1tchFX said:


> I think you're over analyzing this



I agree. How about this for a simple quick test: Hands up those with XTis who wish they'd gone with Sony or Pentax....

No one? Not surprised.

Often the recommendations here are being objective. Now I won't talk anyone out of a system, but I'd be the first to recommend Canon or Nikon. If the price is right, the bodies fit the use there's no reason not to recommend the XTi for instance.

For the most part I haven't seen any actual bad advice here. And that's just what it is, advice. If you want objectivity you'd go and check the body out yourself and not ask an internet forum what they think.


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## deudeu (May 19, 2008)

I see what you are all saying.

But... I own a Samsung DSLR and I am very happy with it. Is this a reason to go on a thread that says "XSi or D80?" to say, "F*ck that! Get a GX-10"? 

In my personnal opinion, no it is not. And for some reason when this kind of stuff happens it is often with some Canon or Nikon owners. I find it annoying, but apparently i am the only one, so i will shut up now....


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## Jedo_03 (May 20, 2008)

Well if you think my camera takes good pictures... Wait til you taste the meals my oven cooks...
:hail:


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## caspertodd (May 20, 2008)

I really haven't seen this to be a problem on here myself.  Maybe it is just the luck of the draw on the threads I have been on, but it seems most people here speak up about what they have and their opinions on certain equipment, but do not put down the other brands.  I have only run across one or two people that were putting another company down saying that the "Canon Xt is just a toy" (which is the one I have).  It's not a big deal.  I really would hope that if you are a newbie looking for new equipment, that you would not come to a forum and accept what one person says on a thread as research.


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## bahandi (May 20, 2008)

Personally, it would be nice to read responses like, "what kind of photography are you into?" a lot more.

I agree with deudeu, in fact, my thread "Brandname Fanboys/girls" in the Beginner forum was targeted towards the Caniknonians... (lol.. a term I learned on this Forum).

Objectivity, to me, would entail a more technical aspect in advice. For example, "the size of sensors means you can do this. Canons and Nikons have this sensor, so does X brand... but Olympus uses 4/3..." or whatever that means.. hahaha.

Another example, probably already stated, "so you want to do X type of photography? these lense(s) are crucial... brand(s) so and so offer compatibility for them, these brands don't."

It is true that people have opinions, be they subjective, and they have the right to express it. I understand full well that people will always recommend what they are familiar with.

I agree that people that come here taking every bit of 'advice' as gold, should be faulted. But that's just it... people like ME who JUMP into this hobby ARE dumb and easily swayed. I'm only thankful that the salesperson I bought my camera from wasn't as subjective, and allowed me the 'freedom' to go with my Olympus. Then again, he was probably on commission... a sale is a sale, after all... lol :lmao:

Keep in mind... forums are FULL of people looking for quick answers, not willing to do their own research and comparisons. Fortunately, I've done enough to realize that when it comes to the tools of the trade, I really need to know what I want to do and equip myself with what i need... not what someone else 'recommends'.

(*sigh* another novel by me... apologies)


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## Antithesis (May 21, 2008)

I think people recommend Nikon or Canon for multiple reasons. I think they hold more of the market share, meaning more profit to go towards growth and development. The end result is going to be new technology that counts, so I have no problem recommending them. Also, I don't have much experience with other brands, so my answer usually looks like this:

"Why don't you *also* look at this [insert Nikon or Canon in persons price range] with similar features, that tend to be cheap as hell if you pick them up used."


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## Village Idiot (May 21, 2008)

Jedo_03 said:


> Well if you think my camera takes good pictures... Wait til you taste the meals my oven cooks...
> :hail:


 
Except that cameras are starting to make a difference in the quality that they can produce.


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## skieur (Jun 3, 2008)

I partially agree with the OP.  You need to understand that when giving advice relating to the purchase of cameras that not everyone is interested in following up a camera purchase with a number of $1,000 plus lenses, flashes, remotes and other accessories that make up a system.
Not even all pros get into a D3 or Mark III.

So, I would expect that some are just looking for a well designed, user-friendly camera that they can learn how to use fairly quickly, so the "Pick Canon or Nikon?" is indeed rather LIMITED advice.  A Leica or Sony with Zeiss lenses would even fit the needs of many pros.  Pentax, Samsung, and even Olympus would be great for amateurs and enthusiasts. It really depends on what kind of shooting you do, how much, and at what level.

skieur


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## Jedo_03 (Jun 4, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Jedo_03* 

 
_Well if you think my camera takes good pictures... Wait til you taste the meals my oven cooks...
:hail:_

[Quote Village Idiot
Except that cameras are starting to make a difference in the quality that they can produce.]

VI - That's uphill logic... In an experienced photographer's hands, a good quality camera WILL make a difference... Doesn't say that a novice WILL take a quality image with the same camera... 
An experienced photographer can take a GREAT image with a cheap P&S (I've read many accounts of that...)
Another angle on "quality that they can produce" is related not to the camera body but to the lens - what quality would you expect from a top of the range Cakkon or Ninon with a $90 lens on the front??

My daughter has a range-oven that cost over $4000 (Aud) and she still ruins a good roast...

Jedo


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## Bifurcator (Jun 7, 2008)

deudeu said:


> Pentax, has had the largest increase in marketshare in Japan last year. This  is true because...



Hi, I was just searching for all messages with the word "Japan" in it as I live there (here) - it's my home.  I read what you said about objectivity and it's no concern to me. If a noob buys on the advice of people in a forum they don't even know and not mostly from self research it will either be a good objective lesson for them giving them more e-bay experience or they'll have gotten lucky and got the one that suits them best - for however long. "Life is like a box of chocolates my mama always used to say." - F.G. 

What did catch my attention was your Pentax comment. If I sell one camera in 2007 and 30 cameras in 2008 I will likely be "the largest growing" dealership and being in Japan, the largest growing in Japan! I mean it means nothing. Very few Japanese buy Pentax - relatively speaking. I don't know where they place but I would guess fairly low in terms of popularity overall. Want a shocker? A camera that is a hit and will likely become a mega-hit (in Japan) is the Ricoh. I know, Ricoh???  Hehehe.  For DSLRs? There's Nikon, there's Nikon, and Nikon and there's Canon, canon and canon. Pentax? If they are getting popular here then everyone including the users are keeping it a big secret and the camera shops are keeping them a brown-bag back-door business.   It doesn't mean it's not a good camera - I owned the *ist D for awhile and a few of their compacts too. I just wanted to say that "fastest growing" doesn't mean much usually.


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## JIP (Jun 7, 2008)

dslrchat said:


> I highly doubt anyone here is getting paid by any manuf to boost sales.
> That being said, In My Honest Opinion, it seems you are asking people to hold back on their personal opinions and experience. Which really defeats the purpose of forums.
> Granted, everyone asking a question needs to take the answers/reply as an Opinion and Not fact.
> 
> ...


 
Well there is/was one person who was getting paid to promote a certain camera line he would come on and sing the praises of Pentax up and dow all day long for quite some time never mentioning he was pretty much a Pentax employee.  I gues that part is not totally true but he was sponsored by Pentax and paid by them to use their gear profesionally and promote it.  This is do think is a very ihonest way to go and this person should have disclosed with mabye a sig that he was being paid to say the things he so earnetly said.  But I digress I am a strong supporter of using Nikon but I can forgive people for using Canon.  I have his opinion because those are the 2 companies that have never gotten out of the SLR or DSLR market only to come back when the market was hot and I think that should stand for alot.


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## ryan7783 (Jun 8, 2008)

What should annoy you more is the people that come here, or any photo forum, and ask what kind of what camera they should buy without doing any sort of research first. 

"I'm too lazy to figure anything out on my own but I know I want to take some killer shots. I know if I buy an expensive camera I can get some really nice photos but I need someone to tell me which camera takes the best pictures so I can run out and throw thousands down on a piece of equipment I won't bother learning to use either."

If they want to be dumb enough to let someone else tell them what kind of camera to buy, then I say bombard them with opinions until they eventually get fed up with not learning anything and try to educate themselves by actually doing the legwork.


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## deudeu (Jun 9, 2008)

ryan7783 said:


> What should annoy you more is the people that come here, or any photo forum, and ask what kind of what camera they should buy without doing any sort of research first.
> 
> "I'm too lazy to figure anything out on my own but I know I want to take some killer shots. I know if I buy an expensive camera I can get some really nice photos but I need someone to tell me which camera takes the best pictures so I can run out and throw thousands down on a piece of equipment I won't bother learning to use either."
> 
> If they want to be dumb enough to let someone else tell them what kind of camera to buy, then I say bombard them with opinions until they eventually get fed up with not learning anything and try to educate themselves by actually doing the legwork.



Amen to that!


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