# The death of C&C



## zulu42 (Jul 30, 2020)

Am I the only one who remembers there used to be more critique here? I, for one, miss it. 

Critique can be hard to hear. When I post a photo here, I only post what I feel are examples of my "better" and "best" work. Therefore, any critique can be hard to swallow. I'm sure there's been times when I have responded to critique less gracefully than I would hope. I really hope that I haven't discouraged anyone from offering their opinion. A big part of my growth as a hobbyist has been due to critique and suggestions that have forced me to look at my own work with a more critical eye.

Critique that I find valuable comes in the form of technical advice as well as opinions and preference. For my work: don't hold back. I value opinions, especially from photographers whose work I enjoy and/or respect. Sometimes I may be so attached to my work that I'll simply disagree with a suggestion, but then go back a few days later only to find the merit I initially disregarded. Other times I find no merit, but I appreciate the time a member took to consider my photo and offer an opinion. I try to appreciate it, at least...

Some of us are only qualified to offer personal preference suggestions. Others here have education or experience that qualifies them to speak with more technical authority. An individual with education and understanding of the principles of art and design might suggest a crop that would provide more balance to my image. I'd be wise to consider the suggestion, even if I think my crop is perfect.

Any image I post here is open for critique. If I get butt-hurt and snotty, I apologize in advance. Earlier in my membership here, I posted some photos of which I was very proud, and I didn't think could be improved. I got some critique. It hurt. I resented it for a time, but remembered what some people thought could be improved. Then... I improved.

I miss the critique. I miss that terrible yet beneficial feeling of posting my masterpiece, then having a glaring mistake pointed out. Or just getting a suggestion that provides a tiny improvement.

How do you feel  about being critiqued? How do you feel about providing critique? Has the atmosphere here changed with regard to critique?

Thanks for reading, and feel free to C&C this post!


----------



## Derrel (Jul 30, 2020)

It seems like there are many who don't want critique or respond negatively to critique and so I think that many people have stopped offering meaningful critique.


----------



## weepete (Jul 30, 2020)

I feel exactly the same. 

Maybe in the past it could be overly harsh, but I do think we've moved too much the other way. 

One of the reasons I joined this forum was for harsh, but fair critique. It's been ages since I've seen a "meh" and while the positivity does great for my ego, the lack of hard critique has also got me stalling creatively and technically. 

Tell you what mate, if you want spesific critique on a shot I'll offer up my services and I'll do my best to be fair and honest. Just fire me a PM with the thread and I'll find some time to look and give you a detailed C&C


----------



## SquarePeg (Jul 30, 2020)

While officially the gallery forums are stated as open to critique, I tend to only offer it if it’s requested.  I always put at the end of all of my photo posts that comments critique and suggestions are always welcome but if I’m looking for critique on something in particular I spell it out. I think there was a time when critique on this site was a bit on the harsh side from some but it was helpful.  I have offered critique a few times that was not taken well by someone even though it was offered very politely.  

I think if you want critique on your photo these days you need to put in the subject line for C & C.  And I think you also need to put some comments in there on what specifically you’re looking for critique on. Composition? Lighting? Posing? Editing choices?


----------



## SquarePeg (Jul 30, 2020)

I want to add that this site has a lot of commenting and interaction on Photo threads compared to sone others. There are some other sites where you post a photo and 25 people “like” your photo but nobody offers even a comment which if that’s what you wanted you just be on Instagram instead of in a *discussion* forum.  we have some good discussions on here but they are not usually critique.  

What would you all think of having a separate forum for critique? Were you post your photo if you would like a thorough critique?


----------



## charlie76 (Jul 30, 2020)

You know....strangely enough, I came on this site today considering starting this thread (or one similar).  This topic was touched on in another thread "accidentally" where one person jumped to the defense of another over extremely mild, polite critique of an OP's photo.   "coup d'état..." 

When I joined in 2012 the discussion and CC was completely different. I got very direct harsh critique from more experienced photographers.  For free!!  I mean...I paid art school teachers lots of money to give me the same thing, but on here it's free!  And from serious photographers!  I would break a sweat every time I posted something.   But... when those photographers gave positive feedback or actually "liked" something, I knew it was their honest opinion and not bs.   I learned to be careful, and to be more attentive to details in my own work.  I didn't post haphazardly, and I put more thought into the images I presented. 

As I return here in 2020...I learned immediately that the line between CC and offending someone (OP or other) was pretty thin.  I see snapshots of pets.  Generic, plain images get posted and nobody offers anything but a pat on the back.   The OP's go away feeling great about a crappy photo and learn squat.

And to be honest...I feel less comfortable being critical of others work (see Derrel's comment above) so I learn a lot less too.  Offering CC is just as  enriching that receiving it IMO if serious thought is put into the CC.   I'd make a connection to the every-kid-gets-a-trophy mindset that seems to have infected my dear culture, but that's a different thread entirely....or is it


----------



## smoke665 (Jul 30, 2020)

Several years ago when I first joined this site I listened, and gleaned so much technical advice, but as time passed and my experience increased the critique moved more from technical to opinion. I've never shunned technical or opinion critique, but frankly I found  that much of the critique started becoming stale. As I moved more into creative work, there seemed to be general trend to be critical of anything that didnt fall within certain narrow preconceived ideas. 

If you fish in the same pond every day, then you can't complain about the catch, so I moved on to other ponds. Sadly strong opinions right or wrong exist everywhere, but I did discover the pool of knowledge is far greater than the confines of TPF. Mark Twain said, “An expert is an ordinary fellow from another town”, there are a lot of towns out there.

I don't post much serious work for critique here or on other sites anymore, thanks to the advice of some exceptional photographers. Their feeling is that if you've been into photography for a long time, familiar with the technical aspects, then it’s better to rely on your vision and creative instincts. Once you get past the technical it's a matter of taste, and since other people’s taste may not be the same as yours, their opinions may not be helpful for your future progress. What’s more, they can even hinder it because other people’s opinions can influence your future decisions and make you doubt your creative instincts. This might not be wise advise for those that depend on what others think of their work, but for me it's been liberating, only needing to please myself.


----------



## charlie76 (Jul 30, 2020)

SquarePeg said:


> What would you all think of having a separate forum for critique? Were you post your photo if you would like a thorough critique?



I totally agree with you.  However, IMO...if you post a photo on this site, you should expect feedback, negative or positive.  Otherwise the purpose of this forum is......is......um..?  Dunno...an ego booster?

How about the opposite?  If you don't want people to state their opinions, they should have a forum for them!!  So they can all just hit the like button all day!!   Basically a forum of  hamster and puppy pictures all day


----------



## SquarePeg (Jul 30, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> > What would you all think of having a separate forum for critique? Were you post your photo if you would like a thorough critique?
> ...



We have that already it’s called the Just For Fun gallery where critique is not expected.  All other gallery forums are open to critique whether it’s requested or not.  

This is just my opinion as someone who posts photos on the site frequently, not as a moderator - I agree that c&c has been missing lately and even when you ask for it you don’t always get it.  It doesn’t need to be given harshly to be effective but neither does it need to be swaddled in rainbows and unicorns.  I remember getting shredded on a photo when I first joined this site.  In the end it was helpful but if I had a thinner skin I would never have come back.  Some people took the license to critique and the anonymity of the internet as a license to be a jerk.  There’s a happy medium somewhere for adults to have a discussion and provide critique without being so rude and cutting that newbies are afraid to post a photo.   

Feel free to critique away in the gallery forums and as long as it’s not abusive, then no need to worry about hurting feelings.  If someone doesn’t respond well to the feedback and gets defensive or insulted, just make a note to ignore their photo threads in the future.


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Jul 31, 2020)

I joined this forum after fruitlessly searching through hundreds of Flockr 'critique' and 'discussion' Groups where the last posts were 11 years ago.

I really appreciate the constructive feedback I've had from this forum on my pictures, and it's help me to check on backgrounds and composition by learning about how other people view my portraits.

I tend to get target fixation, and it's only when someone says "she looks like she has a tree groing out of her head" that I see my images as others do.

I've also found the feedback to be balanced and fair, and always thank people for taking the time to provide detailed critique.

Yes, I would like to see more, as it's really only the Black and White forum where I see regular critique - so a dedicated Critique Forum sounds like a good idea to me.


----------



## Original katomi (Jul 31, 2020)

C&c can be a hard thing,  I will post cc if it is asked for, but otherwise not.
From personal experience I know the feeling to have an image that at the time is the best I can produce only to have it ripped apart. Like talking down to others who are new or only have more basic kit. It’s something I have tried v hard not to do, if there is something I really think the OP could do/know I may pm them so that the comment is private and suggest an idea
Sometimes I have an image that I know could be better, but I just don’t know how. Them I will put my image open to cc. If others post cc on my images then it’s worth a look and deciding what to do with the ideas


----------



## Photo Lady (Jul 31, 2020)

I want it.. and i need it..


----------



## jcdeboever (Jul 31, 2020)

I just recently paid someone to critique some personal work that I have never posted. It was pretty brutal to say the least but very helpful. Funny how the work I thought would get the harshest criticism was met with the least.


----------



## Soocom1 (Jul 31, 2020)

The art of diplomacy is lost in the modern PC "we can't say anything" movement. 


Words like discrimination, judgement and prejudice have been relegated to the bin of derogatory application whilst such is in reality aspects of terms used quite readily in the past for such things as C&C. 

If one researches the actual words and terms used you would discover that the original definitions of such words had an entirely different meaning than the modern connotation. 

I could give a long list of names and events, but rather than seek out a first class..."your ignorant" argument, the whole crux of the C&C was to learn from mistakes and expand on ideas.  But that was based on the implication that one who was posting was adult enough to listen and learn. 

I don't have a problem myself to open discussion, but there must also be the aspect that if one decides to open one's self up to such, then they must be readily willing to accept it, minus of course abuse. 

This goes back to the core of education and the rudimentary base level of education given to the modern student. it is not based on making it hard to learn so as to grow, but easy so as not to offend.


----------



## zombiesniper (Jul 31, 2020)

I used to comment more on photos trying to aid the poster in their photography.

I found that most people just post CC welcome. To me that reads "I'm to damn lazy to bother assessing my own work and want you to go through and walk me by the hand to take a good picture". Early on I tried writing a long post about how they could improve the image, even pointing out the things that were good. This would inevitable be seen as an overly harsh/critical post and usually got the OP very defensive. Not to mention frustrated me to aid lazy people. So I don't do general CC's. I've posted about how to properly ask for help as have others. But this seems to be lost on many.

A lot, not all but a lot of the newer members seem to only want a pat on the back. Even when they post CC welcome. They don't mean it. It's like they think it's the only way someone will comment on their post. Then when you do try and help, they get all but hurt. Once this happens I tend to block the user so I never have to see their crap.

Lastly, some people should not be critiquing anything since they are only posting opinion based critiques which are useless or they are brand/sensor sized fanboys and can't see past their own bias.

Combine all of this and I now only help people that genuinely seem like they want it. The rest can live in mediocrity.


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Jul 31, 2020)

Speaking as a novice and never ever wanting to be more than a hobbyist, I can say thanks to Zulu for starting this thread. When I first started here, there were a couple members who only commented if critical of my work, or my opinion of another's work. I always thought they were egotistical and bullying. One rarely posts anymore and the other has at least quit commenting on my photos. Critique is essential if we expect to improve. It's easy to get into a habit of repetition and stagnancy. Pointing out the good in a photo's composition, the poster's edits or any facet of a photograph can be helpful as much as the negatives too. Let's not forget that. I have noticed most have their ways set in stone and probably aren't going to change. Being a hobbyist, I know my comments are not going to help anyone improve, but if I like a photo for whatever reason, I have to at least acknowledge it. If some members were a doctor, they'd definitely need some training on their bedside manner.


----------



## smoke665 (Jul 31, 2020)

I would agree with @SquarePeg that you don't have to be a jerk about critique. Critique to be helpful doesn't have to be rude or obnoxious. The dictionary defines Critique as "a detailed analysis and assessment of something"  On comments, newbies especially, critique should always incorporate the positive as well as the negative, something that doesn't seem to happen much.

I know others have posted similar guidance on critique, but for those that haven't seen it, Lightstalker has a good article on the subject Learn the Skill of Critiquing Photographs With These 5 Tips . I don't think anyone goes in without the intent of helping, but few ever follow up with the why, of the their comments?  You see something negative, explain why so the poster understands your thought process, is it really a negative or is it the third rule coming into play. The third rule speaks to the comment by @zombiesniper it's very difficult to keep personal bias out of a critique, but we should at least try, or at the least specify that it is a personal opinion so as to not confuse. The fourth one don't try to change the posters vision to fit your own, another really tough one with a fine line between helpful critique and inserting your own bias. Finally the fifth is a common problem -  the short positive or negative. Saying "I like it" or "I don't like this" doesn't really help. If you want to take the time to comment it really should have some substance to it - What do you like about it, what don't you like? It doesn't have to be a thesis but at least throw them a bone.


----------



## Overread (Jul 31, 2020)

Sometimes if you want it you've got to give it too. Furthermore giving your own critique is both a good way to build community bridges with others and also to start to build your own visual eye as you give critique on the works of others and it makes you look at things differently. Even if you are wrong and might get corrected later it is still a good exercise to partake in.

Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback

Check the two threads linked in my signature for more info.


----------



## Original katomi (Jul 31, 2020)

Reading the posts here has made me realise that I am guilty of putting short two or three word comments.
I will have to watch that in future. 
Mixed feelings about putting in the info about images I post.
Some are just for fun so don’t need all how I did this
Others if I am trying out a new, at least to me, idea I will post info so that others can post comments on the technical side as well as CC
But that’s just me, and as my photography is out of the box most of the time and when I belonged to a camera club I started a whole new category.. the Marmite  effect
You know how it goes you love it or hate it.


----------



## Space Face (Jul 31, 2020)

I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be repeating what's been said already.

However, as I've said on here before several times, it's my view that as far as I know Forum rules wise, unless NO crit is specifically requested (ie just for fun etc) then every photograph is open to it.  

I agree with the sentiment that 'nice pic' 'good photo' blah blah blah is a waste of everybody's time. Fine for those who want to boost their post count without saying anything and it's obvious when it happens.  Having a mega post count does not make one an more informed authority on any subject.

When I comment on a photo and I like it, I tend to say why I like it.  Composition, framing, detail, subject matter etc etc.  I am guilty of not always saying I don't like a photo and giving advice on how I think it could be improved.  This is because over the years I've come to realize that people in general don't like being told that their work is substandard, poor or needs improvement when on a lot of occasions it is blatantly obvious it's a rubbish picture.

The reason for this, as has been touched on already, is the fact that you can put any old crap photo on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and the like and everyone will 'like' it thus lending people to believe their shoddy work is acceptable.

There are a few basic rules on photography, which if followed in general terms, will instantly improve work.  You'll always get some nugget who'll pipe in with 'oh, rules are made to be broken''.  Utter garbage, rules and guidelines are made to be adhered to or followed for a reason.  I'm not saying rules and guidelines CAN'T be broken, bent, used differently, interpreted differently but they are there to give us the ground zero from which to base our photographic skills on.

Hey ho, just my tuppence worth (again)


----------



## zulu42 (Jul 31, 2020)

zombiesniper said:


> I found that most people just post CC welcome. To me that reads "I'm to damn lazy to bother assessing my own work and want you to go through and walk me by the hand to take a good picture".


Excellent point. People probably would feel much more comfortable posting critique if it was specifically requested ie: "which crop looks better" or "do the blown highlights detract from this image?"
If I really want critique I could get more by asking properly.




zombiesniper said:


> Lastly, some people should not be critiquing anything since they are only posting opinion based critiques which are useless



I disagree with this. Any critique could be considered opinion based. Blown highlights are a verifiable fact, but whether it detracts from a photo is only opinion.



Overread said:


> Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback


Yes. I should follow this advice.


----------



## Designer (Jul 31, 2020)

zulu42 said:


> Thanks for reading, and feel free to C&C this post!


We're all different, so there's that.  We have here:

1. People who don't know how to ask for C&C. (there is a thread of instruction for that)
2. People who, when they receive a critique, don't know how to accept it and learn from it.
3. People who do offer their critique, but seemingly don't understand the principles of art.
4. People who post once and never come back to read their thread.

So it's not as friendly and helpful on here as it could be.


----------



## zulu42 (Jul 31, 2020)

I should probably be honest enough to admit that I also miss reading threads where people receive critical comments and then get bent out of shape. It can be quite entertaining.


----------



## PJM (Jul 31, 2020)

Other have already covered most of my thoughts in depth but I will at least chime in and say I would like to see more critique beyond the "nice shot".   I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten critique even when I asked for it.

As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo.  If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it.  If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps.  I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier.  And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.


----------



## Space Face (Jul 31, 2020)

Designer said:


> zulu42 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for reading, and feel free to C&C this post!
> ...




I'll add another to that if I may.

People who post their photographs and only return to see the comments made on their thread and rarely if ever comment on other threads outside their own.  Very narcissistic imo.


----------



## SquarePeg (Jul 31, 2020)

Overread said:


> Sometimes if you want it you've got to give it too. Furthermore giving your own critique is both a good way to build community bridges with others and also to start to build your own visual eye as you give critique on the works of others and it makes you look at things differently. Even if you are wrong and might get corrected later it is still a good exercise to partake in.
> 
> Also I find people are more willing to give critique if you provide your own feedback on yourp hoto when posting. Putting up details like settings, equipment, your thoughts etc... If you just dump a photo and run then it doesn't show that you are willing to put in the effort. Put down a photo, put down the details and settings; put down your thoughts; put down your questions. Put the legwork in to start with and you are MUCH more likely to get feedback
> 
> Check the two threads linked in my signature for more info.



This touches on another very valid point - you get back what you put in, as with most everything in life!  If you post photos all the time but you never bother to critique or comment on anyone else’s photos, don’t get bent out of shape if you don’t receive a lot of critique or comments from people. 

I know that I tend to open threads and comment more on threads from people who are active in the forum. Unless it’s somebody brand new in which case they wouldn’t have any history and I open out of curiosity. But if you just drop in here once a month and throw a couple photos up and never participate in any discussion or never make any comments or critiques of anyone else’s photos or offer any contribution to the community, then you’re not really participating and I am much less likely to comment or offer anything on one of your threads. 

Also, I don’t know anything about wildlife photos so rarely comment other than a kudos on what I think is a very interesting shot.  And as for “street”, I don’t get it and never will so I don’t even open those threads any more...


----------



## Overread (Jul 31, 2020)

PJM said:


> As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo.  If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it.  If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps.  I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier.  And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.



In my experiences the more I put into it the more I got out from others. At the same time if you do post up the full details of your shots and give your own commentary then that exercise alone is already helping you. So even if you don't get a single reply, you still benefit.




When giving I find those who question/disagree/pushback aren't a problem for me. Personally I find it far worse when they say nothing at all. Either not even a thanks, but more so when you ask them questions specifically to help and provide the critique they've asked for and they never reply. When you ask even basic things like what camera they used (critique for a point and shoot differs to a DSLR etc...) and they don't get back. 

The lack of caring is FAR more debilitating to me than someone who clearly has passion, even if its missguided or if they are getting the wrong end of the stick. At least the latter group has energy and passion for what they are doing.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 31, 2020)

I have been interested in photography for about 45 years. I am usually fairly well aware of what is right or wrong with a photo, either one taken by me call or one submitted by someone else. I myself do not feel that critique helps all that much. Instead I think that education helps more. If you wish to learn photography come up then bite a few books about photography, and read and study them. For beginners I think that oftentimes critique comes off as empty criticism, unless it is given in a most kid gloves type of fashion, which not that many people do. As in all things, your mileage may vary.


----------



## terri (Jul 31, 2020)

Everyone is making valid points here.   We all are interested in making TPF more informative and helpful, especially to novices.   Of course, as Smoke touched on, as one gets more skill and is comfortable with their own style, getting feedback may not seem as crucial.   But it all has a certain value, which is why no one ever really wants to see it tiptoed around, or dropped completely as too much trouble. 

The moderating team is kicking around some scenarios that might be helpful.   Please keep the discussion going, and let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.  

Such as:  Information on technical items (Lens, ISO, etc.)?  

A statement or specific question from the poster on what they're trying to _achieve_ with their image?    (A lot of times, this can guide the viewer as to how to respond.)

The overall intent would be to make a C&C forum as useful to anyone who wants C&C, as well as getting enough information from that member who offers up something for it.


----------



## smoke665 (Jul 31, 2020)

terri said:


> let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.



Not sure if it's possible with your software, but another site I frequent, has a drop down box next to the title for your post, that includes - Just for Fun, Go Easy On Me, Full Critique, and NSFW so when the thread posts others know right away what level of comment they're looking for. It seems to work well for them, maybe something similar for TPF

Edit: Not having the NSFW separated is a little odd, but it is nice to know what level of critique the poster is looking for. I know I and others have used the Go Easy label when just experimenting with ideas and looking for inspiration.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 31, 2020)

Knowing the intent would be helpful.


----------



## weepete (Jul 31, 2020)

Derrel said:


> I have been interested in photography for about 45 years. I am usually fairly well aware of what is right or wrong with a photo, either one taken by me call or one submitted by someone else. I myself do not feel that critique helps all that much. Instead I think that education helps more. If you wish to learn photography come up then bite a few books about photography, and read and study them. For beginners I think that oftentimes critique comes off as empty criticism, unless it is given in a most kid gloves type of fashion, which not that many people do. As in all things, your mileage may vary.



I know where you are coming from on this, but personally speaking I've taken much more out of critique than I have from books, though I have taken quite a lot from a pretty good art education at High School. Some shots I take look great to me, but just don't cut it with the community. Others I don't really rate seem to do well so I have trouble understanding why. Critique helps me understand that from a disspassionate 3rd person. Personally I'm at the stage where I really need the nitpicky critique, so if I know what works or not in post, whither my content is up to scratch. I'm really looking to push myself here and I do kinda miss the days where it kept me on my toes. Only as good as the last job amd that.


----------



## weepete (Jul 31, 2020)

PJM said:


> Other have already covered most of my thoughts in depth but I will at least chime in and say I would like to see more critique beyond the "nice shot".   I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten critique even when I asked for it.
> 
> As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo.  If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it.  If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps.  I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier.  And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.



I appreciate that being a newbie makes you a bit apprehensive, been there myself. Personally I think that critique from people who know nothing about photography is just as valid. Indeed the majority of people probably know little about the matter.

If I'm unsure, I phrase it as an opinion and just state it. Like "I feel that my eyes are dawn to the right in this shot but I don't know why". Normally I also try and pick out at least one thing that I like in the shot too.

I'm seriously considering posting a shot I took the other day and trying to critique it myself, though I'm looking at it from a different point of view than everyone else.


----------



## Designer (Jul 31, 2020)

weepete said:


> Personally I'm at the stage where I really need the nitpicky critique, so if I know what works or not in post, whither my content is up to scratch. I'm really looking to push myself here and I do kinda miss the days where it kept me on my toes.


I had no idea.  Now that I know what you want, I will watch for your photographs in the future, and see if I can offer anything of value.


----------



## charlie76 (Jul 31, 2020)

Photo Lady said:


> I want it.. and i need it..



LOL fantastic!!  Simply put, and I totally agree


----------



## Derrel (Jul 31, 2020)

About 10 years ago, in a post here on TPF. I wrote that, "Many people wish to work in a visual medium but they do not want to learn the visual language." A forum member who is no longer here asked if he could use that quote as part of his sig file. I told him that I thought it would come off as divisive, and condescending and I told him that I did not think he should use it. I think that many people feel that the visual language which Western culture has developed from about 1500 to the 21st century is somehow arbitrary and capricious. There exists quite a long list of compositional and design ideas that many people hold in low regard. As I said there are many people who want to get into photography, but are completely unwilling to study the visual arts and who have no ideas about the elements and principles of design, which are the underlying basis of all of the visual arts. There are many people who take up photography with absolutely no regard for over five centuries' worth of visual art. I have grown tired stepping around these people.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 31, 2020)

zulu42 said:


> I should probably be honest enough to admit that I also miss reading threads where people receive critical comments and then get bent out of shape. It can be quite entertaining.



Shades of 2012...


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Aug 1, 2020)

jcdeboever said:


> I just recently paid someone to critique some personal work that I have never posted. It was pretty brutal to say the least but very helpful. Funny how the work I thought would get the harshest criticism was met with the least.



Would be very interesting to see some examples of images with the harshest/least feedback ..... and we could give some extra critique for free.


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Aug 1, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> Photo Lady said:
> 
> 
> > I want it.. and i need it..
> ...



A good example of how some posts can be misread 

"...... I totally agree" - that you need more critique or that I need more critique??

Writtem comunication can be a bit one dimensional.


----------



## Overread (Aug 1, 2020)

Derrel I blame art teachers at school. There's a view that has crept in over the years that art is something you can only be "born with". You have to "have the eye" and if you don't have it you can't learn it. This creates the idea that art is something purely instinctive. It's reinforced by the fact that art is often very poorly taught at schools today; art teachers often don't have the understanding or time to go into the mechanics both in terms of how to mechanically perform artistic tasks (eg how to draw); but also then don't go into the theory of how to create art from the tools. So students are mostly left ot bumble along themselves - those that show talent are fawned over and the rest are secretly hoped to drop the subject at the more advanced years and do other things. 

A lot of the latter group might still want to express themselves artistically so they often pick up a camera, but they still have that school reinforced idea that they can't learn art. 


Photography doesn't help itself either because so many books (esp at the casual mass market end) focus on only a tiny handful of "rules/theories" like the "rule of thirds". So we again see issues where people who might dip their toes into a book or two quickly learn "all there is to know" in a few moments. 



In the end art is a subject that is sorely needing a new fresh wave of teachers and teaching with a big focus on it not being a "natural born skill" and in teaching the very basic mechanics from the ground up.


----------



## gk fotografie (Aug 1, 2020)

terri said:


> Everyone is making valid points here.   We all are interested in making TPF more informative and helpful, especially to novices.   Of course, as Smoke touched on, as one gets more skill and is comfortable with their own style, getting feedback may not seem as crucial.   But it all has a certain value, which is why no one ever really wants to see it tiptoed around, or dropped completely as too much trouble.
> 
> The moderating team is kicking around some scenarios that might be helpful.   Please keep the discussion going, and let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.
> 
> ...



I think a separate forum for criticism of photos will not work, if TPF really wants to move forward and make the forum more attractive to existing and future members, then it's good to take a look at other forums where they work with certain buttons, such as "full critique" - "want pointers" - "just sharing" which every member can click on as needed. 




 

All photos can then simply remain in the correct forums and you'll not get a huge fragmentation. Such an adjustment can be realized within the existing forum of TPF, but does TPF want to make the investment?
Unfortunately TPF isn't known for being innovative, with the effect for years that new members leave the forum after 2 or 3 visits and in the meantime a stream of older members has been initiated who drop out in frustration. Let TPF go through this forum with a big brush, because that is really necessary to get and keep members and visitors in the coming years!


----------



## smoke665 (Aug 1, 2020)

@gk fotografie you hit the nail on the head. The "Our forum software won't allow us to do that " excuse has been used for years. Might be past time for the "big brush" you talk about on several areas.


----------



## SquarePeg (Aug 1, 2020)

Sometimes you can’t have all that you want in one big sweep.  That doesn’t mean that incremental change isn’t helpful.


----------



## Space Face (Aug 1, 2020)

Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for.  Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Aug 1, 2020)

Space Face said:


> Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for.  Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.



I agree - the other forum referred to has nice software and some active members who provide good critique, but the Victorian-era sensitivity of the heavy-handed moderators were not for me.

It's not easy to find a forum where you feel 'at home'.


----------



## Space Face (Aug 1, 2020)

Tropicalmemories said:


> Space Face said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for.  Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.
> ...



I absolutely agree.  Many Forums have a 'clique' and members who suck up to the Mods.  If you're not part of it or openly disagree with any of them or the Mods you're treated pretty shabbily at times.

I'm not just talking about photography Forums.  I've been on many Forums whether it's photography, motoring, cars, bikes, motorhomes, football, golf, boats, fashion, music etc etc and they all pretty much have cliques, some more so than others.  I tend to speak my mind and suffice to say I do not partake in a number of Forums on which I used to be fairly active.  Make of that what you will


----------



## gk fotografie (Aug 1, 2020)

Tropicalmemories said:


> Space Face said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for.  Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.
> ...



Please stay to the point! I'm in no way referring to another forum if that forum would be better, I don't even know that, I only point to the separate buttons applied on that forum for "full critique" etc. and I'm in no way talking about that forum anywhere as being better or whatever, because how or what that forum is does not matter at all here in this discussion.


----------



## Space Face (Aug 1, 2020)

gk fotografie said:


> Tropicalmemories said:
> 
> 
> > Space Face said:
> ...



I think it is relevant to the point.  A you'll see from my reply, I wasn't specifically referring to the particular Forum you mentioned.  I was referring to Forums in general.


----------



## photoflyer (Aug 1, 2020)

I guess one way to get it started is to provide a bit of self criticism of the image one has just posted.   The weekly challenges are a great place to do this.

It's funny because as I've improved I frequently know  the flaws in an image before I post it.  Folks here have a good eye.  On a Neowise shot I shared the foreground was blurry because I shot it on a sky tracker.  I was impressed that someone picked up on this.  Only someone here would.

And last week I posted something with obvious pincushion effect that I knew was there.  Again, a discerning eye caught this.  

In both cases I was impressed.

Of the top 10 favorite images I've taken each has technical flaws and folks here will see them.  But an image is the sum of its parts and must be enjoyed that way. A little C&C won't detract from this.


----------



## Space Face (Aug 1, 2020)

It appears from some of the replies herein infer, if I'm grasping them correctly, that it is assumed any critique or comments and opinions voiced are OP specific and don't have to be iterated more than once on different Threads.

I'm of the train of thought that this is not wholly correct.  It may well be the case that an OP  has read the comments and either agreed, disregarded, countered or acknowledged them and therefore does not require to do so again.  However, I'd put it that any other person reading the Thread and subsequent comments written therein, may indeed venture on something of value to them, which they may use to their advantage at a future time.

On a busy Forum like this, threads tend to be moved on fairly quickly and any information contained in them, although obviously not lost, become less evident and current.


----------



## weepete (Aug 1, 2020)

Designer said:


> weepete said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I'm at the stage where I really need the nitpicky critique, so if I know what works or not in post, whither my content is up to scratch. I'm really looking to push myself here and I do kinda miss the days where it kept me on my toes.
> ...



Thanks Designer, I'd really appreciate the feedback. Often in my own shots I have my own vision. It's not unique or breaking ground and I do still really struggle with seeing compositions. However I'm at the stage I want to be competing with the pros. Last year I put my money where my mouth is and I reallly want to push my photography to the best it can be

So to all those that read; I'm fair game.


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 1, 2020)

zulu42 said:


> I disagree with this. Any critique could be considered opinion based. Blown highlights are a verifiable fact, but whether it detracts from a photo is only opinion.



I agree with your disagreement


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 1, 2020)

SquarePeg said:


> This touches on another very valid point - you get back what you put in, as with most everything in life!



Ya...agreed.  Really, seriously dedicating your attention and time to giving a one or two paragraph critique on someones photo is a fantastic thinking exercise and sharpens one's sense for good art... IMO.


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 1, 2020)

Derrel said:


> There are many people who take up photography with absolutely no regard for over five centuries' worth of visual art. I have grown tired stepping around these people.



Gangsta


----------



## weepete (Aug 2, 2020)

I think one of the things that's a bit misunderstood in this conversation is also around input from the person thats looking for C&C. Personally I don't want to bias the viewer, I'd like people to look at my shots with a clean eye and give feedback on what they pick up on.


----------



## weepete (Aug 2, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > There are many people who take up photography with absolutely no regard for over five centuries' worth of visual art. I have grown tired stepping around these people.
> ...



That's not helpful or constructive, and probaby what you don't realise is that there has been many an argument on here that's went; Art is subjective, subjective is opinion, therefore there is no right or wrong, therefore nothing is good, nothing is bad and it's all just a matter of opinion

Invariably that leads to a  place where people can justify using bad technique as they fail to realise that the common element is the visual signposts we use as a common language in art.


----------



## Overread (Aug 2, 2020)

weepete said:


> I think one of the things that's a bit misunderstood in this conversation is also around input from the person thats looking for C&C. Personally I don't want to bias the viewer, I'd like people to look at my shots with a clean eye and give feedback on what they pick up on.



I often think this is an overplayed worry. You won't bias a person that much by your own viewpoints. It's more likely that your description of how you took it and your thoughts will better help them understand both your creative process and your creative eye and intentions with the photo. As a result the critique you get back would be more focused around YOU and less around them. This is important because many times when interpreting a work of art for critique the intention of the creator is important. If you are aiming to tell a specific message or story then if the person giving critique cannot see that story its giving context for them to give you feedback. If you don't provide any information they might go off at a total tangent based on the story they might think you wanted to tell or what they think is good to tell.

This can mean that things end up heading toward the "common" themes in creativity even if you were trying to work outside of the box. 


Finally, as noted earlier, it also shows that you are willing to put the legwork into your own creative process. Its showing that you DO want to learn and that you are willing to put time into it. Plus its showing your thoughts; it might show where you're missing something or where you've got confused or have a gap etc... All essentially and really great information.


----------



## Designer (Aug 2, 2020)

weepete said:


> I think one of the things that's a bit misunderstood in this conversation is also around input from the person thats looking for C&C. Personally I don't want to bias the viewer, I'd like people to look at my shots with a clean eye and give feedback on what they pick up on.


That might work with some types of photographs, but I still think knowing the photographer's intent is valuable when considering his submission.


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 2, 2020)

It’s absolutely useful to know the intent of an artist, but it shouldn’t act as any sort of gatekeeper to restrict the opinions of others. Stating that a particular photograph “meets the intent” of the photographer, basically shuts the door to CC, which isn’t helping anyone. 

I’d say the only exception to this is digital art. I think once you manipulate an image past the point of realism (to whatever degree) it begins to enter the genre of digital art. And digital art cannot be evaluated using typical photographic standards. And imo should have its own spot in the gallery.


----------



## zombiesniper (Aug 2, 2020)

weepete said:


> I think one of the things that's a bit misunderstood in this conversation is also around input from the person thats looking for C&C. Personally I don't want to bias the viewer, I'd like people to look at my shots with a clean eye and give feedback on what they pick up on.



For some images and problems this is the correct approach. As an example there was a thread where a background was composited in behind a group of people and the OP waned to see if anyone could pick it up.

However when it is just someone posting CC welcome, I usually tend to pass on commenting since it would usually take me more effort to critique an image than the average poster put into the image itself. This isn't always the case but how many times have you seen a newer member post CC welcome with no context on multiple started threads. I see a few a week.

Sometimes you can give basic info without influencing the viewer. Settings, Why did you take the shot?


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 2, 2020)

I enjoy getting a "nice shot" if not a longer critique.  I admit I post my shots out of pride, but hopefully not too prideful.  It's easy to get your mom to tell you you're Michelangelo. Getting similar respect from other photographers is a bit harder.  I try to give that back as I know that it takes courage to post a shot and hard work too.  You wouldn't post it if you didn't feel it meant something to you.  So thanking someone for posting it and giving him some measure of respect is worthwhile.  I think getting no response at all is worse than anything.  You wonder if anyone actually looked.  

Having said that, giving good critique is very important.  I'd like to know what people think.  I may have missed stuff, probably often,  because it's mine. If you look at someone's portraiture, and tell them the eyes would look brighter and more alive if they added catch lights, that's a positive learning experience for them.  The art of critiquing is to be positive and gentle, something I find hard to do if I get carried away.  Criticizing someone nicely is hard.    Be nice when you do it.


----------



## K9Kirk (Aug 2, 2020)

If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? Bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.


----------



## Original katomi (Aug 2, 2020)

Ok these were staged just for fun to post here.. pic 1 bit out of focus, to much reflection off bottle  and so on 
Pic 2 better but will not win any points in comp. it’s composed all wrong. Cc was not asked for or given as others could see it was not required or relevant.
In the sense of fair play and this post if peeps want to cc these images, in the interests of fun and helping others, 
Then please feel free.
Taken on old I pad air..something iso not known f stop not known second images zoomed by finger pinch on screen
Light..daylight via big window


----------



## Space Face (Aug 2, 2020)

God, I ain't seen a dimple bottle of whisky for ages.


----------



## Photo Lady (Aug 2, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> I enjoy getting a "nice shot" if not a longer critique.  I admit I post my shots out of pride, but hopefully not too prideful.  It's easy to get your mom to tell you you're Michelangelo. Getting similar respect from other photographers is a bit harder.  I try to give that back as I know that it takes courage to post a shot and hard work too.  You wouldn't post it if you didn't feel it meant something to you.  So thanking someone for posting it and giving him some measure of respect is worthwhile.  I think getting no response at all is worse than anything.  You wonder if anyone actually looked.
> 
> Having said that, giving good critique is very important.  I'd like to know what people think.  I may have missed stuff, probably often,  because it's mine. If you look at someone's portraiture, and tell them the eyes would look brighter and more alive if they added catch lights, that's a positive learning experience for them.  The art of critiquing is to be positive and gentle, something I find hard to do if I get carried away.  Criticizing someone nicely is hard.    Be nice when you do it.


well said and explained


----------



## Overread (Aug 2, 2020)

K9Kirk said:


> If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.



Certainly don't harass, but at the same time its important to realise a few things:

1) The person might not understand what you are saying. They might say they do, but they don't. Thus when you repeat you need to change how you word it or even go back a few more steps and go into more depth. Sometimes a different angle or such can help a person better understand you

2) They might understand the theory, but have difficulty putting it into practice. This might just be them needing more practice so that more individual steps are more instinctive for them to perform; or it might be that they don't know how to fit it into the process of taking a shot when in the moment. Again a new angle of explaining, perhaps giving them ideas on how they can make practical application of the theory . 

3) They might disagree with you, but aren't saying so. At which point you might phrase your repeat as a question instead; asking them why they are choosing not to do what you've suggested. Being sure to phrase it as a question not an accusation

4) Repetition is how we most often learn things. We can learn a lot from one instruction, but we don't really "learn" until we repeat over and over. So sometimes yes you do have to repeat teaching when you are helping someone along. Each repetition is helping them, reminding them, each time they might pick up on little bits that steadily build into the whole picture.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 2, 2020)

Photo Lady said:


> well said and explained



Now that's a nice critique.


----------



## Original katomi (Aug 2, 2020)

Overread
Re your item 1
This is true, but I have noticed that as people become more advanced in their field they be less able to talk in basic terms.
Something to remember when teaching.... the carpenter places his thumb to guide the saw at the start of the cut
He has done this for the last 50 years, and no longer remembers doing so, thus forgets to teach it and gets frustrated when the learner does not understand why they can’t start the cut as easily..
I have moved on a bit in my photography but I try and rem... why I do things when showing /telling others
Ps having re read this... looks like I am have a go at you....
Not what is intended, more to expand on what you posted


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 2, 2020)

Original katomi said:


> Overread
> Re your item 1
> *This is true, but I have noticed that as people become more advanced in their field they be less able to talk in basic terms.*
> Something to remember when teaching.... the carpenter places his thumb to guide the saw at the start of the cut
> ...



Computer IT people in particular.  Whenever I have a problem with my software or hardware, the people you talk to speak in code, abbreviations, slang, computer speak, as if you work for Microsoft for 25 years.  Instruction manuals are written that way as well.  Actually it's gotten better over the years.  But back when, you needed a PhD to understand them.  Now you only need a Masters.


----------



## K9Kirk (Aug 2, 2020)

Overread said:


> K9Kirk said:
> 
> 
> > If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.
> ...


----------



## terri (Aug 2, 2020)

All right, folks!   The TPF C&C Gallery is now open for business!  

We're putting it in as a Gallery since that's an easy place to find it.   There are a couple of do's and don'ts in there, but hopefully we've captured the overall spirit of what has been suggested in here.  

We definitely consider it a work in progress, so let's get it kicked off and see what works and what may not.   Thanks for having a great discussion and keeping TPF the member-driven community that we all enjoy!

Have fun with it!


----------



## CherylL (Aug 3, 2020)

I think C&C is very helpful.   I want to know what you see versus what I don't see in a photo.  Was the posing off, background distraction, focus off, more DOF etc.  I can't see what I don't know so the C&C helps.  

When I joined this forum the C&C was harsh at times to some people and things did get heated.  I learned a lot from other's photos.  At first I had no idea what was being said.  Because I didn't see much back then.  The next step I did was toolook at a photo posted for C&C and try to see what would be said about the photo before reading the comments.  

There were a lot of links posted a few years ago versus now.  And I did click on all the ones directed to me and most of the others.  I learned a lot by reading those links.  When you are starting out you don't know how to google efficiently the terms.  There is so much info on the net that having a good quality link to info is helpful.

I've been guilty of posting "good shot" or "excellent set".  I do try at times to say something more like I like the POV or the colors.  If someone is an excellent photographer it seems they may not want or care what I think of a photo because I am not at their level.  That is my thinking and not what anyone has said to me.

I appreciate all of the help I've received from forum members.  My photos are ok to edit and that has been helpful too.


----------



## smoke665 (Aug 3, 2020)

Some of the comments touched on this already but to reiterate their points, it is important when giving critque on an image to consider the experience level of the person asking for critique. Going after every little nitpick you can find in an image presented by someone starting out isn't beneficial or necessary, because they likely won't remember it all and may even scare them off. Instead look toward the most glaring or obvious to guide them in steps. As the experience level of person increases so should the level of critique they receive. Finally consider the experience level of the one you are critiquing vs your own level. Being critical of a creative choice is touchy, it's okay to not like it, but it's wise to tread lightly on changes. If you are stating an opinion then do so and move on, don't continue to harp on the poster's choice.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 3, 2020)

Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.



The older I get the more I wonder if this isn't accidentally the result of the fact that the "arts" tend to be a hobby/school interest that "TENDS" to be marketed and focused more toward girls than boys. Ergo that when you get older and into adults you get more girls doing photography from an artistic background, whilst more guys are doing it from a lesser artistic background (often specifically because they "can't draw or do art").


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 3, 2020)

Overread said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> > Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.
> ...


Well, all I can draw is stick figures. So photography gives me an outlet for some creativity.  But I also have to add that like other guys I often get caught up in the mechanics of photography.  Boys do like mechanical things.  Girls are more touchy-feely and photos speak to their heart more than us guys.  Just the way it is.


----------



## Designer (Aug 3, 2020)

This thread is starting to come off the rails.  I don't think anyone can make a valid argument that girls or boys are better at art.  Everyone is different, and we all have different experiences with art.


----------



## gk fotografie (Aug 3, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.





AlanKlein said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > AlanKlein said:
> ...



Wow, that is quite sexist and old-fashioned, stereotypical thinking about women and men in 2020!
I think it's high time to close this thread.


----------



## terri (Aug 3, 2020)

Well, this IS in the Discussion forum, and folks are just expressing opinions -  as they are wont to do within the confines of a discussion.    

I would ask that comments stay more in line with what could be useful in the C&C Gallery.  

That said, if the OP is satisfied, this particular thread _could_ be closed and further suggestions be directed to our Feedback & Suggestions forum.   We're looking at you, @zulu42 !    

Regardless, there is little to be gained by lobbing personal attacks on other members and is actually in violation of TPF guidelines.   Take it down a notch.


----------



## paigew (Aug 3, 2020)

Overread said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> > Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.
> ...



Photography is still a male dominated field. Art has been male dominated for centuries.


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2020)

paigew said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > AlanKlein said:
> ...



Oh true. However I wasn't really making a call on who does and doesn't do photography, but simply theorising on the different backgrounds behind people with a rough gender divide. In this case suggesting that more women come into photography with an artistic background; whilst more men come with a less artistic background - and then suggesting that this difference might be the result of how it might be due to how children are (or at least have been) raised and focused toward different hobbies/interests during their upbringing. 

Of course such things are often only ever very generalist unless one has the resources to do a proper study. My view is that "art" isn't a mythological thing which you have to be "born with" nor something that is particularly biased in terms of gender. Instead its something you can be taught and which can be learned. However how its presented to many and how its not well taught to many creates these illusions that surround art.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 3, 2020)

Overread said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



I didn't want to start a controversy.  But I think how a person looks at things defines how they will do a C&C.  Leaving aside male vs female traits, how one looks at a picture defines how they will critique it.  For example, someone who concentrates on the technical aspect will bring up things like rules of thirds, focus, exposure, resolution, etc.  Touchy feely people will bring up the feelings it elicits. People shots are more important, landscapes less so.  Relationships of the people in the photo are more important.   The technical aspect may be ignored.  I think getting responses from both types are important to improve your photography.  We don't get enough of the latter touchy-feely stuff, I believe.  Maybe because more men critique?


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Aug 3, 2020)

Perhaps we should close this thread?  

We seem to prefer spending our time theorizing about feedback and the impact of gender bias on photography than providing actual critique.

It's interesting that at the same time this thread started, I happened to post a photo asking for C&C.  I got zero replies in the time this thread reached 8 pages.

But I'm optimistic that the new C&C Gallery will help us all get valuable feedback on our images to improve our skills - so thank you all in advance.


----------



## paigew (Aug 3, 2020)

There are no hard feelings here, I am a member from way back when harsh critique was the norm here  I honestly feel like I learned so much here on this forum from the harsh critique I got. As I moved farther along in my career/artform I realized I didn't want critique on my work. I shoot for me, and most often, I DGAF if anyone likes them. Occasionally I do want professional critique, and since I have paying clients I don't find it appropriate to ask for feedback on a public forum. I have a few select peers that help me with that sort of thing.

As to the gender thing. I 100% agree that especially on forums like this you will see a big difference in the way men and women shoot. This is, IMO more of a technical forum. If you went to a forum more focused on the artistic/creative/experimental photography, you would probably see a lot more creative shots from both genders. I would be interested to see how many men vs women are here on TPF, I feel like there are way more men (actively participating).


----------



## CherylL (Aug 3, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.



I'm actually 1/2 techie and 1/2 creative.  I want to know the how and why things work.


----------



## paigew (Aug 3, 2020)

CherylL said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> > Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.
> ...


Same!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## CherylL (Aug 3, 2020)

paigew said:


> Photography is still a male dominated field. Art has been male dominated for centuries.



Videography and motion graphics are male dominated fields too.  I have 1 female video friend and about 100 male video friends.   I know zero female After Effects users.    Which AE is highly techie plus you have to be creative do apply that tech.  I started video in 2003 and then motion graphics later.   I felt discounted because I was female, but slowly gained respect.  Interesting that some men on another forum would pm me questions, but not in the open forum.

@Tropicalmemories, sorry I missed your post.  I've asked for C&C recently and got 2 good feedbacks.  Another set about a month ago did get a few more.  Hopefully with this thread there will be more participation on C&C and I will do my part.


----------



## paigew (Aug 3, 2020)

CherylL said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > Photography is still a male dominated field. Art has been male dominated for centuries.
> ...


I dabble in videography! I use final cut though. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## CherylL (Aug 3, 2020)

paigew said:


> I dabble in videography! I use final cut though.



Premiere Pro for me.  Not a Mac user.  I've heard good things about Final Cut.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 3, 2020)

paigew said:


> CherylL said:
> 
> 
> > AlanKlein said:
> ...


Tech can be taught.  Inspiration is magical. And rare.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 3, 2020)

CherylL said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > I dabble in videography! I use final cut though.
> ...


I use Premiere Elements.  Windows. Where can you get video slideshows critiqued?  (hint. hint.)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDzogShfhgCHh2rVvEsFOJQ


----------



## dgphotog (Aug 4, 2020)

Thanks for the reasoned thoughts, Charlie76. I seriously commend your attitude, accompanied by a necessary thick skin. Speaking as someone NEW to this forum, having seen for years how others work and don't work, I believe you may be in an enviable minority. CC from a thoughtful, respectful and well-meaning participant should be recognized as such, from those who selflessly wish to teach something they know and feel the OP could benefit from. It really depends on the commenter's altruism, with ego set aside. Again, from my experience in other forums, I feel those are also in an enviable minority. There are so many variables and risks, it is no wonder that at this time of frayed nerves and sensibilities, would-be commenters tend to take the safe path. And as you correctly and eloquently opine, it is lost opportunity.


----------



## stevebohne (Aug 4, 2020)

Before retiring, I was certified to judge photographs for the PPA. Since I held the Master of Photography degree, many photographers sought my advice. However, it seems that on venues such as this, people ASK for suggestions and/or critiques...but that's not what they REALLY want. They want people to stroke their egos and tell them how great their work is or what a skilled photographer they are. If you try to give them suggestions for improvement...no matter how helpful... they get their feelings hurt. Therefore, I RARELY give criticism...even if it's asked for.


----------



## SquarePeg (Aug 4, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative.  I find that more women shoot better than  men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.



I don’t necessarily think it’s a men vs women thing, I think it’s more of a technical vs visual way of shooting.  I definitely shoot and post process visually not technically.   I tend to ignore technical critique if it gets too technical.  I’m just not wired that way.  When someone posts a critique wanting the photo in question to be tweaked to bring up the histogram to blah blah blah, I wonder to myself why not just shoot in auto then?  Technical perfection is never my goal.


----------



## Overread (Aug 4, 2020)

stevebohne said:


> Before retiring, I was certified to judge photographs for the PPA. Since I held the Master of Photography degree, many photographers sought my advice. However, it seems that on venues such as this, people ASK for suggestions and/or critiques...but that's not what they REALLY want. They want people to stroke their egos and tell them how great their work is or what a skilled photographer they are. If you try to give them suggestions for improvement...no matter how helpful... they get their feelings hurt. Therefore, I RARELY give criticism...even if it's asked for.



In my experience such people are few and far between, they just stick in the mind more so than those who perhaps say nothing or those who say thanks. 
In the end I think that for those who want to teach and help others its just as much "work" in finding those receptive to their comments as it is for those who are wanting critique in how they have to find those willing to comment. 

That said if one or both sides stop hunting then the whole process grinds to a halt and no one gets any further nor what they really want.


----------



## zulu42 (Aug 4, 2020)

terri said:


> That said, if the OP is satisfied, this particular thread _could_ be closed and further suggestions be directed to our Feedback & Suggestions forum. We're looking at you, @zulu42



Yes quite satisfied. I'm gratified by the thoughtful responses from the membership and the ever-responsive staff. Much appreciated. I don't have any opinion about whether the thread is closed, but very kind of you to ask!


----------



## twocolor (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm late to the game, but I had a moment of "I should check in at the old Forum and see what's up" today so I popped in for the first time in a very long time.  The reason I stopped popping in as frequently is lack of comments or critique especially when asked.  Today I wanted something other than the fb crap and decided to see how everyone is doing.  But to post an image and get crickets makes me not want to post.


----------



## Overread (Aug 4, 2020)

Welcome back Twocolor!

Well post up some photos - heck we just opened a new critique gallery section!


----------



## twocolor (Aug 4, 2020)

Overread said:


> Welcome back Twocolor!
> 
> Well post up some photos - heck we just opened a new critique gallery section!



Thank you!!  I'll post a few that I'm working on!!


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 4, 2020)

twocolor said:


> But to post an image and get crickets makes me not want to post.



I couldn’t agree more! What’s the point?


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 4, 2020)

AlanKlein said:


> Girls are more touchy-feely and photos speak to their heart more than us guys. Just the way it is.



Um, no... but an interesting opinion, no doubt. And a good topic for another thread...that would probably get shut down in less than an hour


----------



## limr (Aug 4, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> > Girls are more touchy-feely and photos speak to their heart more than us guys. Just the way it is.
> ...



Bingo!


----------



## Mikhal (Aug 9, 2020)

I've been here a few years, still a newbie by every definition of the word.  I was into photography classes, with film way back in high school, and have just recently been a position to start up with digital and get a DSLR.  I don't always have the time to be on here as much as I would like to post as well as receive help.   I understand where people are coming from when they say if some one doesn't seem to invest in the community why should I invest in them.  However from a person in that situation, when I do get the chance to post I really appreciate the feed back, even if I don't have the time to post as often as I would like.  

A few members have really helped me understand why some of my photos were "off" when I didn't understand why.  For example on some zoom lenses how if you zoom all the way out it may be in focus, but soft.  That cause me to do research on my equipment, finding out I have one that drops off quickly at the farthest reaches and that I need to dial it back just a bit to get the same reach but a sharper image.

I do read a lot of the forums here and try to apply what I notice, but sometimes I need to take the shot and have some one else come in and educate me on a different approach or "I see what you were going for, maybe take what you did and just tweak this instead".

Please don't give up on us just because we aren't here frequently or a low post count.


----------



## weepete (Aug 9, 2020)

Mikhal said:


> Please don't give up on us just because we aren't here frequently or a low post count.



It seems to me that it's more about the effort put in to individual posts by those who want critique, rather than newness or post count. Critique can take a bit of time and effort to give, so it's good to know the poster is invested in it and giving a bit of detail in the original post can go a long way.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Aug 18, 2020)

Two of my 472 hobbies (at last count) are 18th century reenactment and Old-timey banjos music.

After decades of complaints that this or that was not common in that time period or you did not play that tune it like so and so did, I finally told the folks, this item may not be common but it was documented to the 18th century and my goal is to play the music as I think it was played back them.

So too my photography. I present it the way I want it, not the way others think it should be. Oh sure, if I am stumped because a photo does not reflect what I want, I will ask for opinions. 

Except to compliment or ask a question about the subject, I rarely comment on the work of others unless they ask.

In short, how does anyone know what the other person was thinking?


----------



## Overread (Aug 18, 2020)

Grandpa Ron said:


> In short, how does anyone know what the other person was thinking?



Sometimes its not about what the creator wants or wanted and its not about what those who see the art want/desire/think either. It's a messy ever shifting contextual line between the two. 

Outside input is often good because sometimes we can run the risk that we set low standards for ourselves or that we set standards and expectations based on what we know; but being in a position where we don't know further potential. Of course this touches on self learning and some people are better at this than others; that said even those who are very good will typically see improved results and faster learning when getting outside input. 

Different people will set different standards and, in moderation, exposure to different standards is good. It allows you to get a fresh take on what you create; to view things from a different angle. Perhaps you'll get new ideas or learn new methods. Or perhaps what you create isn't saying what you think it is when others take a look. Perhaps this means you learn some new methods or viewpoints or approaches and put them into your work. 

I'd also say that when one chooses to come to a forum instead of a more gallery style site, then I would expect most want to talk about their photography. Sure we all love compliments, but sometimes questions; ideas; critiques; new viewpoints; impressions - this can all be avenues to talk about our hobby; to broaden horizons; to learn and to also touch on things a bit deeper than just "I like that". 



Of course the learning process is one that can never end, but we all have points where we don't want such detailed feedback. When we do just want the gallery experience of showing off what we've done.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Aug 18, 2020)

I suspect it is an age thing, but I have long since given up technique and presentation in favor of content. It matters little to me how perfectly rendered the photograph is; to me it is what it is saying.    

For example, this is a photo of  Albert Schlechten, who was one of the first to photograph the Rockies around Bozeman MT and parts of Yellowstone. It would never win any photo contest but it speaks volumes.

In the digital world one is able to jazz up a photo any way they want and some of these are quite good examples of photographic art. However my vote will almost always favor content.


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 18, 2020)

Grandpa Ron said:


> In the digital world one is able to jazz up a photo any way they want and some of these are quite good examples of photographic art. However my vote will almost always favor content.



Every day I agree with this more and more.  I turn on my Windows 10 laptop(s) every day to a new HDR or composite photo that looks great, but you know it's not real.  I hesitate every time I think of opening an image in Luminar, just to see what it would do.  Photography is so different these days.  So easy to make a crappy photo look good.  Sky replacement?  Come one gimme a break. Call me old fashioned but I'll take a simple black and white over a super-saturated landscape any day.  Not that I don't play with the HDR, but I dont like it!!


----------



## sleist (Aug 19, 2020)

Took a quick look at the new C&C gallery.  Was disappointed to see people continuing to use the "like" buttons there.  Too bad that can't be turned off for that area of the site.  I do wish you luck with it though.


----------



## TreeofLifeStairs (Aug 19, 2020)

This is such a great thread. I love all the various viewpoints. When I first started on the forum there were a lot of great critiques that I learned a great deal from (both from my own pictures and from others’). Some were definitely hyper-technical and others were more about the art. I can appreciate both since the technical comes from a more objective stance and the the art more subjective. At different times I want to hear from either side. Where I currently am in my photography journey is not where I previously was and not where I will be. All this to say that I really appreciate the critiques and find it to be the most valuable part of this forum. So thank you everyone who gives critiques. It helps more than you probably know.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Aug 19, 2020)

Charlie,

It used to disturb me that icebergs, skies, water, clouds etc. were far too perfect. But just as tin-types gave way to wet plates, then dry plates and roll film, we live in a time where photography has changed. I remember calendar photos of dogs at a table playing poker back in the late 1950's. Photographic manipulation is not new, it is just so easy. The truth is, post processed photographs have become the new norm.  Though there are still a few that appreciate an "as shot" approach. 

I will admit, I feel a bit cheated knowing that the scene in a photo I like, only exists in the binary numbers of some computer. Even though the film masters of old could manipulate a print to enhance what they saw, I can at least stand there they stood and shoot the same scene. 

So getting back to the OP's comments. Critiquing a photograph today, is little more that admitting you do not understand what the artist was trying to present.


----------



## BananaRepublic (Aug 20, 2020)

I actually thought this thread had be shut down.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Aug 20, 2020)

The thread seams to be alive and well. It is always good to hear other opinions.

And, if you agree with what the person is saying, you can use the "like" button and save time typing.


----------



## charlie76 (Aug 20, 2020)

I keep coming back here.  This topic leaves lots of room for disagreement


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Aug 20, 2020)

Disagreement maybe?  I have found that most disagreements are due to diverse opinions about what is useful and what is fluff.

It is kind of like "Is the glass half empty or half full".  From my engineering standpoint I see the  wrong size glass for the task at hand.


----------



## TreeofLifeStairs (Aug 21, 2020)

Disagreement is ok though; it shows there is a diversity of thoughts. But in disagreeing we need to give the other the respect we would want to be shown.


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 15, 2021)

I would like to add to this and this is just an observation. It seems to me the critique of pictures has not only become rather rare but critique has taken on another form. I see people telling others their pictures are good or great when it's obvious and sometimes painfully obvious that they're not. Is this just a sign of the times, to protect ones feelings rather than tell the truth? It's saddening to see because some people will never advance their skill level because of all the little white lies that were intended to spare their feelings.


----------



## AlanKlein (Apr 15, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> I would like to add to this and this is just an observation. It seems to me the critique of pictures has not only become rather rare but critique has taken on another form. I see people telling others their pictures are good or great when it's obvious and sometimes painfully obvious that they're not. Is this just a sign of the times, to protect ones feelings rather than tell the truth? It's saddening to see because some people will never advance their skill level because of all the little white lies that were intended to spare their feelings.


Not only that.  But some people tell others their pictures are great so they will get back similar responses when they submit their pictures.  It's like a mutual admiration society.


----------



## limr (Apr 15, 2021)

I don't think this has anything to do with people being "so sensitive" or a decline in standards.

I think it's just a difficult time for literally the whole world, and people have a lot of other things going on right now that are taking priority. Maybe just don't have the bandwidth left to deal with writing out a critique to a photo. Or they want to contribute to their post count.

Just speaking for myself, I generally don't comment on portraits because a) they don't interest me, and b) because they don't interest me, I wouldn't even know to where to start to critique it. What the hell do I know about how to set up the studio lights or posing or whatever? So I stay mum. I also tend to avoid contributing to the threads of certain members whom I know will just ignore me, so what's the point? I'm wasting my energy. As for the rest, I will admit that I've just not had it in me right now to muster the energy.

Also, whether or not a photo is good is a very subjective matter, so saying that people are giving unwarranted accolades is unfair. One person's "great shot" is another person's "terrible shot." Tastes and interests vary wildly. I've seen plenty of gushing over photos that were technically good but also profoundly boring to me, so should I complain that all the other people who liked it were just being fake or oblivious or too scared to hurt anyone's feelings?

Critique doesn't always mean "point out the flaws." Positive feedback is also critique, and is also very important. It's just as useful to know what you did right as it is to know what you did wrong. And it's also easier for people to take the negative if the critique starts out with - or at least includes - the positive as well. And no, that's also not a "people are so sensitive these days" thing. That's just human nature. Yes, more detailed positive critique is more useful than just "nice shot" but it's not like it's totally useless for someone to know that at least someone else likes their photos and that could encourage them to take more and learn more.

Edit: one final thought. If folks want more detailed critique, then ask for it. Don't just sit back and wait for people to read your mind.


----------



## AlanKlein (Apr 15, 2021)

limr said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with people being "so sensitive" or a decline in standards.
> 
> I think it's just a difficult time for literally the whole world, and people have a lot of other things going on right now that are taking priority. Maybe just don't have the bandwidth left to deal with writing out a critique to a photo. Or they want to contribute to their post count.
> 
> ...


Good points.  One thing I'll add is it's OK to comment if you don't have expertise in a particular type of photo or any art for that matter.  Art is aesthetics.  So people's opinions of how they affect them are the ultimate point of looking at art.  You don't have to understand the craft and the do's and don'ts. 

A photographer or any artist should listen to what people think -experts and laymen alike.  From a business standpoint, you might be selling to the average non-expert.  So it's important to know what turns them on a well as some guru.  Everyone's opinion has value.  Often, a layman reflecting on just the aesthetics, how the photo makes them feel, is more important than hearing about empty space, level horizons, and the proverbial rule-of-thirds.


----------



## limr (Apr 15, 2021)

AlanKlein said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this has anything to do with people being "so sensitive" or a decline in standards.
> ...



I agree - someone doesn't have to be an expert to comment. I didn't explain that point as clearly as I should have - I wasn't trying to suggest that I didn't comment on portraits only because I have no expertise in portraiture. I just have zero interest in them, so I can't even really comment on how they make me feel or what I think of the aesthetics, because the answer to that is almost always "This makes me feel bored" and there's just no useful reason to make that comment to anyone.

Having said that, I do know that many of our members who are newer to photography feel like they might not know enough to comment. What I suggest for those people is that if they think they think a photo is good, try to pinpoint why they like it. What are you noticing first and why does that please you? Is there something that your eye keeps traveling back to? In a good way or a bad way? What things make you not like the photo? What makes you uneasy?

It takes some practice to know how to identify elements of the photo that we are reacting to. I don't mean knowing the technical terms, but getting used to separating out details of a photo so someone could more easily identify smaller parts they are reacting to and not just the photo as a whole. Otherwise, you're left with just, "I don't know, I just like it!"


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 15, 2021)

limr said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with people being "so sensitive" or a decline in standards.
> 
> I think it's just a difficult time for literally the whole world, and people have a lot of other things going on right now that are taking priority. Maybe just don't have the bandwidth left to deal with writing out a critique to a photo. Or they want to contribute to their post count.
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about pics that are "technically good but boring" or differences in personal tastes. I'm talking about pictures that are *obviously* either *way* out of focus and *very blurry/fuzzy* and usually *verrry dark* and *full of noise or all the above*. Pics that only a mother would tell her child, they look good. If it's ok to say pics like that are good then everyone's pictures are good and that is impossible. you have to draw the line somewhere, you can't just say it's all a matter of opinion.


----------



## limr (Apr 15, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this has anything to do with people being "so sensitive" or a decline in standards.
> ...



I haven't seen anything like what you describe that got a thread full of "nice shot" responses.


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 15, 2021)

limr said:


> K9Kirk said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



I have and others have PM'ed me about the same thing. I'm not alone on this.


----------



## limr (Apr 15, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > K9Kirk said:
> ...



Why is it so bothersome to you? I'm curious to see an example.


----------



## Space Face (Apr 16, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > K9Kirk said:
> ...



Agreed.  Some dreadful stuff gets complimented instead of their faults being pointed out and advice given on how to improve or rectify.


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

TPF is a community not a critique board (actually we have a separate gallery for that now ).

There are and will always be open comments for people of all skill levels. From those who are just here to enjoy photos and might not take any themselves through to those who are critique masters. The site has never been about only posting critique, that is something users are free to ask for and to give if they so choose. 

If you see faults and things people can improve on then YOU can point out the methods they can use to resolve those issues, perhaps even point out the issues and explain why they are issues so that they can understand why they might be seen as negative elements. It's YOUR choice if you want to increase this kind of content on the site. The mods/admin can't force users to just critique post all the time.
Just like we cannot force people to accept anothers point of view. If you give critique in a polite and constructive manner and others ignore or don't pay attention or question it then that is what it is. You can explain your point with more depth and clarity, but otherwise you cannot force people. 

Some are just happy taking snapshots and sharing that online and that's fine. There are billions of people in the world and a handful on a forum enjoying and sharing their hobby isn't going to destroy photography overnight as a skill.


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Apr 16, 2021)

I believe you have to take each instance and member separately. We have one new"ish" member that was obviously a novice with a camera when they first started here. Their pics were at best snapshots that you'd see in anyone's travel albums. I think because of the age ( and possibly the gender ), they were handled by everyone with kid gloves and were always given words of encouragement. Had they been critiqued as a long standing member would have been, they quite possibly might have never posted again with us. I have seen great improvement in their posts, and now see some mild critiques being given. Was this the right approach? I believe so because we now have a very active member that might have just vanished from the site otherwise.


----------



## SquarePeg (Apr 16, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > K9Kirk said:
> ...



Are you and these others posting your critique on these bad dark blurry noisy photos or just critiquing them to each other via PM?  

What you see as dark, blurry or noisy, another could view as an artistic choice made by the photographer.    Sometimes I see photos posted that I think are crap and others are nominating them for POTM. Not everyone has the same taste in art or the same appreciation for some styles.  If I don’t “get” a photo and the poster didn’t ask for critique, I usually move on.


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

Just a point to consider - I've been here since 2008 and I've seen this same complaint over the years time and time again. Not enough critique, not good enough critique; blind leading the blind; beginners too rife; too many snapshots; the art of photography is being killed; digital destroyed photography; worthless snapshots; too much chatting; too many compliments; beginner doesn't respect critique etc...


I've seen people spend hour upon hour arguing about this; pouring out huge threads and long conversations on it. Burning the candle at all hours focused on dealing with this problem. Thing is they spend so much time debating the problem that they don't actually face the problem in itself - they don't put their own time into simply being the leader and being willing to step up and provide the critique. In the end most of the ideas tend to  revolve around people wanting us to somehow either do the work for them in providing all the critique and/or punishing any who don't agree with given critique (where that critique comes from an "approved" source). 


And you know what before I was a mod I wanted more too - so I started a simple thread to make a mentor system. It worked well for a good many years and whilst we've lost some of the most active users, its still there and heck another could easily take up the candle and help it live again (in the end it 100% relies on people talking about it and willing to donate their time to make it work). 
I've written threads on helping people give and take critique (that I link in my signature) and over the years I've given back critique to others when I can. I'd rather LEAD and be the change and give the critique than spend hours debating about it and grumbling. 

I've also seen other sites who have way more critique than us and you know what hte main difference is - the users. Pure and simple its people willing, eager, energetic and articulate and willing go give their time directly to the community to provide the critique. To set the standard and to set a high bar for themselves and to meet it. Now we've got the critique subsection; we welcome critique in every gallery. We have given you the places and the tools to talk with users - to be able to communicate with them. In the end the ball is always in the court of the users to make the community what they want.


If you have the time, skill, energy and passion and want to see the community change then the BEST thing you can do is make that change yourself right now. Comment and help others; critique on those out of focus shots to help people understand what they are seeing; why its out of focus and what they can do to help. Team up with a few friends and unite to help spread the load if you like - if there's several of you worried about the quality of critique then team up; provide the quality critique and divvy up the threads so that you cover as much of the community and help out as much as you can. The tools are right there on the site - the chance is right before you to make the change. In the end we mods can't force you to do this; just like we can't force newbies to be better or force pros to sign up to the site to provide and endless teacher resource.


----------



## Original katomi (Apr 16, 2021)

I find cc so hard to do because
My style is so out of the box that for me some flaws are intended/styles
Having been a newbie I found by the time I had done all that peeps suggested the image was no longer mind
Therefore when I do cc I will Make suggestions but also realising/ saying to op it’s only a suggestion disregard if you wish 
Sometimes I have an image that could be better but I don’t know how/why  that’s when I find cc a help


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 16, 2021)

This has gotten off track. I was just curious as to why some people praise consistently bad pictures. I know the reasons why they might think they're good but I think they're wrong because the pictures in question show a consistent pattern of being dark, noisy and oof all the time. It's not an artistic choice either because I never see a nice, clear, well lit and colorful pic without noise from them. Again, I don't have a problem with the persons pics, just the people that praise their pics. I'm not pointing out the pics in question for obvious reasons. I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, I try to encourage. As a matter of fact I have gone out of my way to contact certain people privately that seemed to be struggling and seemed approachable and they thanked me for helping them. I hope that helped to bring everything in better focus.


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

Are people upset that there is not enough critique, or are people upset that photos that they consider poor are not called out as such or are "liked"?  I get the sense it's the latter, but maybe I'm misreading ...



Overread said:


> Just a point to consider - I've been here since 2008



I joined a little after that.  I agree with everything you said, but you have to admit that this was a very different place back then - for a variety of reasons (good and bad).  I'm not sure there was ever a huge amount of critique going on, but you were certainly made aware if you posted a certain quality of image.  At some point, this seemed to be actively discouraged and a number of people moved on afterward - perhaps as a result and perhaps for other reasons.

I enjoyed the edgier banter, but I get that others might not.  I think the site could stand to have people think twice about what they are posting, but to do that people will need to be harsher as well as be willing to accept that harsher response.  That does not seem like what this site is about now.  That is not good or bad, it's just how it is.


----------



## SquarePeg (Apr 16, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> This has gotten off track. I was just curious as to why some people praise consistently bad pictures. I know the reasons why they might think they're good but I think they're wrong because the pictures in question show a consistent pattern of being dark, noisy and oof all the time. It's not an artistic choice either because I never see a nice, clear, well lit and colorful pic without noise from them. Again, I don't have a problem with the persons pics, just the people that praise their pics. I'm not pointing out the pics in question for obvious reasons. I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, I try to encourage. As a matter of fact I have gone out of my way to contact certain people privately that seemed to be struggling and seemed approachable and they thanked me for helping them. I hope that helped to bring everything in better focus.



I assume people that comment nice shot etc on just about every photo are either trying to up their post count for some reason or, more likely, are just wanting the interaction.  Many people are still in lockdown or semi-lockdown situations and the internet is their lifeline for socialization and contact.  We’re a community, not a critique forum. Not sure why other people’s posts are such a concern to you or these others you message with.


----------



## SquarePeg (Apr 16, 2021)

I think one issue is that people start a new thread for every photo whether it’s earth shattering or not.  Maybe as moderators we need to push people toward the theme threads as someone else suggested further back in this thread.  Starting a new thread for a photo share of one photo should be less frequent and only for specific discussion.   If there is a photo that doesn’t fit a current theme then start a new one by posting in the themes forum and noting in post 1 what the theme is for.  Or start your own thread in one of the galleries and add to it as you wish.  We don’t need a new thread for every bird photo.  What do you all think?


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 16, 2021)

And we can also *assume* that some people just don't have and eye for photography or art.


----------



## Space Face (Apr 16, 2021)

Quite often the 'nice pic' type comments come from people who tend to mainly post poor (sometimes terrible) shots themselves.  So perhaps they genuinely don't know what a good photograph is.  Again, I blame Instagram, Facebook etc etc (and the Hippies of course).  Now, where's my Pink Floyd LP's.


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Apr 16, 2021)

Space Face said:


> Quite often the 'nice pic' type comments come from people who tend to mainly post poor (sometimes terrible) shots themselves.  So perhaps they genuinely don't know what a good photograph is.  Again, I blame Instagram, Facebook etc etc (and the Hippies of course).  Now, where's my Pink Floyd LP's.



Whoa, Hey, leave the hippies outta this! They have had enough blame for the world’s problems


----------



## Space Face (Apr 16, 2021)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> Space Face said:
> 
> 
> > Quite often the 'nice pic' type comments come from people who tend to mainly post poor (sometimes terrible) shots themselves.  So perhaps they genuinely don't know what a good photograph is.  Again, I blame Instagram, Facebook etc etc (and the Hippies of course).  Now, where's my Pink Floyd LP's.
> ...



Ahhhh, too much free love and mind altering drugs in the 60's.  Now we pay the concequences


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

What does TPF want to be - a photography forum or a snapshot sharing hangout?  Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?

I have not post anywhere regularly for some time so feel free to ignore me.  I still take plenty of shots.  I spent an hour or so looking at the posted photos here as well as the replies.  I then spent 10 minute at another site (C in C).  Big difference in the postings as well as the comments.

I've had my issues with both sites, but if I were going to spend any time looking at/commenting on photography and had to choose a site ...

If TPF staff and users like what's going on here, then keep doing what you're doing.


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Apr 16, 2021)

Whoever thinks love is ever a bad thing _should_ have their mind altered


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Apr 16, 2021)

Part of a forum’s problem is that we have no concrete proof the person giving a critique actually knows any more than we, the admitted novices, do. We have no way of seeing diplomas, accreditation’s from universities or proof of decades of work. Some of the people who give blistering comments have only posted enough photos on this site that I could count them on one hand since I have been here. We have to wonder about that little fact when considering a member’s critiques. If some were doctors, they’d be sued for malpractice given their bedside manner


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> What does TPF want to be - a photography forum or a snapshot sharing hangout?  Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?
> 
> I have not post anywhere regularly for some time so feel free to ignore me.  I still take plenty of shots.  I spent an hour or so looking at the posted photos here as well as the replies.  I then spent 10 minute at another site (C in C).  Big difference in the postings as well as the comments.
> 
> ...



The point is more that we've provided the tools and that we can guide a little, but that in the end the membership is what makes the community what it is.
We've never tried to push the community one way or the other and have always approached it that a forum doesn't have be all or nothing of one group. You can have snapshots right alongside serious stuff very happily. There's many newbies that join up who need and want help and who ask; and there are many who do their thing and are happy with that. 
We've got critique in every gallery; we've got a just for fun gallery; we've got beginner and intermediate section and we've got a critique gallery. 

We can provide those tools and we dip our own toes into the water to do our thing as well and guide the site. But in the end if people leave to critique elsewhere we can't "stop" them nor would we want too. We'd always love to have more skilled photographers keen to pass on their knowledge to others; eager to help; willing to put the time in. But we can't make those appear out of thin air.


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

Dean_Gretsch said:


> Part of a forum’s problem is that we have no concrete proof the person giving a critique actually knows any more than we, the admitted novices, do. We have no way of seeing diplomas, accreditation’s from universities or proof of decades of work. Some of the people who give blistering comments have only posted enough photos on this site that I could count them on one hand since I have been here. We have to wonder about that little fact when considering a member’s critiques. If some were doctors, they be sued for malpractice given their bedside manner




I mean users can post their gallery links in their signatures to personal websites; they can post their photos to the site; they can stick their credentials in their signature. We've no back-end way to verify any details; or approve people and create a critique clique. In the end its up to each person to weight the pros and cons of any critique and come to their own conclusions. Indeed I'd encourage people to always question critique from ANYONE if they feel they don't understand it or agree with it; with a view toward encouraging discourse to develop to a deeper level. To have the person giving feedback go into greater depth whilst those receiving are showing positive reception and a desire to understand better; even if in the end they don't agree with it.


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

Overread said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > What does TPF want to be - a photography forum or a snapshot sharing hangout?  Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?
> ...



Chicken and egg.  Quality photos and quality commentary attract a certain type of member.  Letting entropy decide the fate of anything is a race to mediocrity.


----------



## limr (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> What does TPF want to be - a photography forum or a snapshot sharing hangout?



These are not mutually exclusive.




> Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?
> 
> I have not post anywhere regularly for some time so feel free to ignore me.



You just answered your own question.


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

> Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?
> 
> I have not post anywhere regularly for some time so feel free to ignore me.





limr said:


> You just answered your own question.




How have I answered my own question?  People are complaining about the quality of the images posted here and specifically about the fact that no one critiques these images accordingly.



limr said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > What does TPF want to be - a photography forum or a snapshot sharing hangout?
> ...



Really?  Not sure I agree.  They are different things in my mind at any rate.  Maybe you mean that TPF can cater to both, but I'm not sure that's true.  I think there are people that will choose to post to a site based on the content of that site.  I'm not making a judgement here.  If you are all happy then fine.  It seems this thread was posted by people who are not happy.  I'm just taking part in the discussion as to why that might be the case.


----------



## limr (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> > Are the mods and members acting in such a way to promote one over the other?
> >
> > I have not post anywhere regularly for some time so feel free to ignore me.
> 
> ...



You asked what mods and members are doing to promote aspects of the forum.

You said you do not post anymore.

Which means at least one of our members is doing nothing to promote one over the other.

And people aren't complaining about the quality of the photos. They are complaining that photos that they deem "bad" get positive feedback and no critique. Apparently this is a bad thing that bothers them terribly.

No one is saying that there's suddenly no good pictures and it's all just snapshots.




> limr said:
> 
> 
> > These are not mutually exclusive.
> ...



Just because they are different things doesn't mean they can't co-exist on one forum. Want to post snapshots? Post in Just For Fun or a Photo Theme gallery. Want critique? Post in the C&C forum and ask for feedback.

Why does everyone have to have the same exact purpose to get something out of this forum? I'm sure the folks who are here have chosen to hang out here for very different reasons because the forum is not just _one_ thing. There is a variety of content, so to say that "people choose it for the content" still does nothing to say that it can't provide different kinds of content all at the same time.

As so many people have suggested countless times over the years, if the snapshot threads bother you, you can always just scroll on by them.

The thread was also started last year and out of that discussion, we started the C&C forum. We're only here beating the poor dead horse because it was randomly resurrected for lord knows what reason. There's no useful discussion coming out of it.


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

limr said:


> There's no useful discussion coming out of it.



Well, I suppose you're right.

I mean, it's only useful if people agree there's a problem and a solution needs to be found.  If everyone is fine with the current state, then by all means carry on.

But then here were are at post 149.

There is a difference between photography and snapshots.  And there are people that want one over the other.  And they do care.  And they want critique from other people who care and know the difference.  That I know without question.


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > There's no useful discussion coming out of it.
> ...



TPF has never been nor never tried to be a "professional gallery" type photography community. It's the photography club, not the gallery. 

It caters to all skills from beginner to advanced and aims to provide a safe, friendly environment where people of all skills can share and choose to interact with who they wish. If you want higher calibre photography and such then there ARE better sites aimed at being more of a gallery (though its my impression that such sites often start up with that aspiration and attract many seeking that, but then quickly open the doors to any and all skills down the line as they grow in popularity). 
We rely heavily on the members to help toward the sites content. If you want an atmosphere of high level discussion you've got to start the threads; provide the content and help foster and nurture that environment if you want to get there and attract others. We mods can do that too and we do, but at the same time we can't force people to do it. 

Again instead of commenting here you could be providing critique to some of those snapshots from people who are keen to learn. You can be providing critique and input on those who are skilled and whom you consider your equal and betters; you can choose freely to engage with the community.

However any forum if you choose not to engage, will quickly lose all purpose to you. Nothing we do can change that, only you can choose to dip your toes in and engage the community. If you stay outside you'll only get frustrated .


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

Overread said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



OK.  Then why do these forums exist:

*The Aspiring Professionals Forum*

*General Shop Talk*

*Commercial/Product photography*

*The Professional Gallery*


----------



## limr (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > There's no useful discussion coming out of it.
> ...



Then why drag it on?


----------



## limr (Apr 16, 2021)

sleist said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > sleist said:
> ...



Not for critique.


----------



## smoke665 (Apr 16, 2021)

Wow! 13 pages 151 comments spanning almost 10 months. No resolution one way or the other, no minds changed, no enlightenment and I would be willing to bet that this  thread will likely come alive again next year.

I do agree with @SquarePeg that every one (including myself) should try to use the themes threads when possible.  I don't know if it's just me, but every time I try to post in a theme I have a devil of a time finding the one I want. There's three different indexes with what I suspect are more than a few dead categories. Rather than click through trying to find one, I end up starting a thread. I wish there was a better way, maybe more specific sub categories of the galleries?


----------



## Overread (Apr 16, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> Wow! 13 pages 151 comments spanning almost 10 months. No resolution one way or the other, no minds changed, no enlightenment and I would be willing to bet that this  thread will likely come alive again next year.



Actually we opened the Critique Gallery as a result of this thread.


----------



## sleist (Apr 16, 2021)

I think there's a legitimate concern being addressed here.  Clearly that opinion is not the majority.  I've shared my views and they appear not to be shared by others .  I will move on and let you all be.  If I ever feel the need to share my love of photography I know where not to go.

Take care.


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 16, 2021)

I'll tell you why it bothers me and it should bother others as well. It's the fact that when a bad picture is praised as much as, and sometimes more than, a good picture it takes away from the good artist/photographers. It puts their work on the same level and that's not fair to them. It would be like me painting a copy of the Mona Lisa and doing a terrible job of it (and I would) and then get a bunch of likes and comments saying it's as good as the original. If that's not demeaning to the original then I'm talking to people from another planet.

So what's to be done about it? Nothing. My only intent was for the people doing it to hopefully read my original comment and realize I was talking about them and stop doing it on their own free will. If they don't and keep doing it so be it. It's a free world and people are free to do as they wish and others are free to dislike it and speak their mind about it. There are bad consequences for both apparently. The bright side of it is I'm not so terribly bothered by it that I'll lose sleep over it. Heck, I usually to bed laughing over the thought of it.


----------



## Space Face (Apr 17, 2021)

K9Kirk said:


> I'll tell you why it bothers me and it should bother others as well. It's the fact that when a bad picture is praised as much as, and sometimes more than, a good picture it takes away from the good artist/photographers. It puts their work on the same level and that's not fair to them. It would be like me painting a copy of the Mona Lisa and doing a terrible job of it (and I would) and then get a bunch of likes and comments saying it's as good as the original. If that's not demeaning to the original then I'm talking to people from another planet.
> 
> So what's to be done about it? Nothing. My only intent was for the people doing it to hopefully read my original comment and realize I was talking about them and stop doing it on their own free will. If they don't and keep doing it so be it. It's a free world and people are free to do as they wish and others are free to dislike it and speak their mind about it. There are bad consequences for both apparently. The bright side of it is I'm not so terribly bothered by it that I'll lose sleep over it. Heck, I usually to bed laughing over the thought of it.



.......free world? Not so sure about that chum

You better watch your tone son, you’ll be getting cancelled


----------



## Overread (Apr 17, 2021)

And after those two replies I think that's quite enough. 

We are always open to constructive community feedback and trying to take steps toward improving the community for all. But we are not going to condone ideas, policies, attitudes which seek to mock, insult, isolate or otherwise remove people from the community because they don't share the same appreciation of the hobby as others. TPF has always been here for photographers of all skill levels and will remain so.


----------

