# Possible Professional Portrait?



## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm 16, and I've been interested in Photography for years now. I've been hands on for 1 year, and I'm ready to take it to the next step. Are these pictures "professional" looking enough that I could call myself a professional and start my own business?


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

Also, If anyone has any critiques, tips, adivce, or just comments, please share. I'm looking to improve myself.


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## Timothy (Jun 15, 2010)

in the 4th and 5th images they seem a bit too bright, my eyes get drawn to the forehead and the nose/cheeks
also in the 3rd image it looks as though the focus is on the nose, instead of the eyes, which it should always be in portraits.

personally i think the dof is a bit too shallow and perhaps you should have stopped down the apature just a stop or 2.
also there are a few people round here who aren't fond of cutting of the head, which doesn't mean it can't work well, in the 3rd image it looks decent, but in the 5th i think it seems to be a bit too much chopped off.


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## JackRabbit (Jun 15, 2010)

That guy has no idea what he is talking about. And to answer your question, probably not. You need a whole helluva lot more experience before you should start charging people.  Just judging from the photos you posted in this thread, you could still use a whole bunch more on location training.  Just keep shooting for the fun of it and eventually people will see that your work is excellent and they will hire you for paid jobs


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## Ady (Jun 15, 2010)

I think the composition/framing is good in the pics but all could do with a little more DOF, particularly #4 where the bottom half of his face is blurred. Practice practice practice and look at lots of pro portraits to get ideas and compare to yours. Think about lighting and what you can do PP with reddish sking tones/blothches, etc. Good luck and keep shooting.


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 15, 2010)

Im not sure what I am seeing then.  I think all of them are too deep.  



Ady said:


> I think the composition/framing is good in the pics but all could do with a little more DOF, particularly #4 where the bottom half of his face is blurred. Practice practice practice and look at lots of pro portraits to get ideas and compare to yours. Think about lighting and what you can do PP with reddish sking tones/blothches, etc. Good luck and keep shooting.


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## Ady (Jun 15, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> Im not sure what I am seeing then.  I think all of them are too deep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you see it as too deep when on number 2 the lips are focused but the tip of the nose is out?


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 15, 2010)

because she didnt focus it on the closest point?  If she had focused on the nose, everything will be crisp with that much DOF.  Doesnt matter how deep your DOF is, if you have something in front of your focus, it will be blurry.


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## Ady (Jun 15, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> because she didnt focus it on the closest point?  If she had focused on the nose, everything will be crisp with that much DOF.  Doesnt matter how deep your DOF is, *if you have something in front of your focus, it will be blurry*.



Not sure what camera she used but with a DX sensor & 50mm lens from a distance of 84 inches to the focal point (nose) at f/2.8 there would be 3.87 inches in front of the nose in focus so how can you say something in front of the focus will be blurry?


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 15, 2010)

I meant between focal point and your lens. Look, all I am saying is if I had taken the first picture, I would have blurred out the background and the subject will be crisp. Thats why I said the DOF is too much.


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## Ady (Jun 15, 2010)

I think I see where you are coming from but it is not a given that the subject will be crisp as with shots like this where you are shooting quite wide to get the blur effect from usually fairly close then the total DOF can be as little as 1 inch or less which is enough to have parts of the face in focus and other parts out. It is very much a balancing act hence my advice for practice practice practice.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 15, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> Are these pictures "professional" looking enough that I could call myself a professional and start my own business?



I want to break apart these two questions:

1) Are these pictures "professional" looking enough that I could... call myself a professional? 

2) Are these pictures "professional" looking enough that I could... start my own business?

For your first question, I say not yet.  Someone here said, "Practice, practice, practice."  I say you need instruction, instruction, instruction.  Learn lighting and posing.  These two go hand-in-hand.  Even if your style will not be _creating_ poses and light, knowledge of them will allow you to _recognize_ good existing light and direct your subjects so they move into good poses.

Start you own business now?  Sure!  You seem to have a good, natural sense of composition and your technical is adequate.  There is a market for what you're doing now...  a good one.  I suspect there are MANY more photographers of your caliber than those who can call themselves pros.  Remember...  being a pro is all about proficiency and not merely getting paid.

Good luck!

-Pete


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## Looking Glass Photo (Jun 15, 2010)

definitely too wide of a lens, it feels like the person is wrapping around the frame.  but nice shots other then that!


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## bigtwinky (Jun 15, 2010)

The focus is off, the cropping seems a bit too tight in the frame, the exposure is off, the posing is not very appealing to the models.  Basic elements like these need to be 100% mastered before going into business.

Keep on shooting


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

Thank you everyone for commenting. I'm using a point and shoot camera.. no interchangable lens. All of these are edited, and I think that's why the DOF looks a little strange. So maybe I need to work on my editing rather than my DOF? Here are the originals


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## CW Jones (Jun 15, 2010)

They all seem blurry and OOF to me. I would say no to both, sorry. Keep working on it though!


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> The focus is off, the cropping seems a bit too tight in the frame, the exposure is off, the posing is not very appealing to the models. Basic elements like these need to be 100% mastered before going into business.
> 
> Keep on shooting


 

This was actually my first paying job. I haven't given her the finals yet, but she said she really liked the close up ones. I showed her all of them and these are the ones that she picked. And, I showed her the edited vs the original and she said she liked the edited. I could still work on all that, though. Thank you.


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

Ady said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > Im not sure what I am seeing then. I think all of them are too deep.
> ...


 


All of this confusion is because of my terrible editing job  What do you think about the originals?


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## ivomitcats (Jun 15, 2010)

Y'know people can actually sue you for charging them for bad photographs. It's happened before. You show up to any professional gig with a point and shoot camera and...uh. 
You're 16, you're not a professional anything yet. Take some digital photography classes and invest in a cheap DSLR, don't worry about trying to make money doing it, most people who've done this their whole lives don't make money with it.


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## Derrel (Jun 15, 2010)

rotate...camera....to portrait....orientation...losing...count...of horizontal head cut-offs seen...must rotate camera...restore foreheads...


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## bigtwinky (Jun 15, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > The focus is off, the cropping seems a bit too tight in the frame, the exposure is off, the posing is not very appealing to the models. Basic elements like these need to be 100% mastered before going into business.
> ...


 
Clients don't know. People today are used to seeing craptastic images up on facebook, that are blurry, out of focus, camera shake, just snapshots. So when there is any tiny consideration put in to the image, they will love them.

But really, if you plan on going professional, these are not quality professional images, and you are not using quality professional gear that could help you in achieving your goal.

Putting out top notch pro work, each and every time, and from the get go when your business is open is key. If not, you will be turning away potential clients just based on your portfolio. Can you shoot for family and friends? Sure. Going pro and making a business out of this at the level you are at? No.

I'm still iffy with taking money from people and often I refuse to as I have alot to work on and I'm not comfortable in repeating my results 100% of the time.

You know what the upside is?  You are 16!  You have so much time ahead of you to learn and grow as a photographer.  You obviously have a passion for it, so continue with that passion and learn the craft.  Don't think about the business side or the making money side.  Think about experience, knowledge and skill growth.  Nothing else.  Study in photography, practice alot, and you will be in a whole other realm in a few years.

Oh, and get yourself a decent camera too.  Start asking for bithday and christmas presents that are photography related...


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## JackRabbit (Jun 15, 2010)

Derrel said:


> rotate...camera....to portrait....orientation...losing...count...of horizontal head cut-offs seen...must rotate camera...restore foreheads...


I LOL'd


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

JackRabbit said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > rotate...camera....to portrait....orientation...losing...count...of horizontal head cut-offs seen...must rotate camera...restore foreheads...
> ...


 

Uhh.. Thanks, but that's not helpful.


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## jonib101 (Jun 15, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> You know what the upside is? You are 16! You have so much time ahead of you to learn and grow as a photographer. You obviously have a passion for it, so continue with that passion and learn the craft. Don't think about the business side or the making money side. Think about experience, knowledge and skill growth. Nothing else. Study in photography, practice alot, and you will be in a whole other realm in a few years.
> 
> Oh, and get yourself a decent camera too. Start asking for bithday and christmas presents that are photography related...


 
This one was a birthday present :S Thank you very much for your advice. I'll work on it


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## AlexL (Jun 15, 2010)

the last 2 photo is too soft.


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## SilentShutter (Jun 15, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> JackRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



What he's saying is shoot Portrait (top to bottom) not landscape, to avoid cutting off necks, foreheads, hair, and whatever else.

It's not a must, but he was just referring to your shots on here.  Because they have some tops of heads cut off.


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## Derrel (Jun 15, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> JackRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...




Uhh...you butchered five out of five shots by shooting "portraits" as floating head horizontals...it might actually be helpful to do a Google search on "famous portraits".

Take a look...maybe, uhh, you'll notice something.


famous portraits - Google Search


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## Fedaykin (Jun 15, 2010)

Wait, you are using a point and shoot camera and charged someone for these shots? 


:er:


As pointed out these have some problems: focus is off, exposure is off, things being cut off(bad composition), etc. I say get a DSLR(any would be better than a point and shoot) and read up on photography. Buy Understanding Exposure, read tutorials online. Shoot shoot shoot. post here and ask for C&C.


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## o hey tyler (Jun 16, 2010)

I wish I could buy a P&S and feel no remorse about charging people for photographs...

No, you're not ready to be a "professional" photographer. You essentially answered your own question in your statement. You've been hands on for a year? Most people that study photography, and all aspects of the trade go to school for 4+ years for it. You really can't say, "Hey I picked up a point and shoot last June... Am I Annie Leibovitz yet?" That's where most people go wrong. You've got a long way to go (not a bad thing, because you're young). But being a professional is no small task. And you should really rethink charging people for photos, unless they're VERY reasonably priced.


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## skieur (Jun 16, 2010)

Brain amputation, a bruise on the forehead, bitten nails, and the unitended visual emphasis on two large front teeth should confirm to you that portraits that are taken too close to the subject are seldom flattering.  Angles can also emphasize a pointed chin or make an ear look too large.

Back off from your subject, pay close attention to angles and flattering your subject and learn much more about postprocessing.

skieur


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## jonib101 (Jun 16, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> And you should really rethink charging people for photos, unless they're VERY reasonably priced.


 

I live in a VERY small town. There's no photographer here, and I charge low prices. For a photo shoot for one person I only charge $15.


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## KmH (Jun 16, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> JackRabbit said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...


 
The best advice in the entire thread, because it's easy to do, costs nothing, and requires little in the way of added skills,

and you blow it off.  (check out how many times Derrel has been thanked in threads. Even I pay close attention when he posts.)

Do you have a legal business (licensed/registered) and business liability insurance? Are you collecting sales taxes and forwarding them to the state, if your state has sales taxes?  

You won't be old enough to sign contracts until you're 18.

That reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once, when there still were such things. It said:

"Hire A Teenager...While They Still Know It ALL."


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## Christie Photo (Jun 17, 2010)

KmH said:


> Do you have a legal business (licensed/registered) and business liability insurance? Are you collecting sales taxes and forwarding them to the state, if your state has sales taxes?
> 
> You won't be old enough to sign contracts until you're 18.



Oh, common....

What she's doing is more like babysitting or having a paper route.  I'm sure the state or code enforcement won't come knocking.

-Pete


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## Steve Reddin (Jun 18, 2010)

Hi jonib101,

I've been watching this thread for a while; I wasn't going to reply as there had already been feedback on the work and there's no point in just repeating what others have said, however I've had to respond to some of the....less helpful....comments that have been put on here. Why? Because I thought this forum was supposed to be helpful to newcomers, I thought I'd finally stumbled across one that didn't operate as a click, I thought the replies (whilst being repetitive) were on the whole, fairly well balanced and to the point but, God help me, I think I've just be lured into a false sense of security...

First, just your initial question, can you call yourself a professional and charge for your work? The difference between pro and amatuer is that a pro charges for their work, there isn't a level of quality where you move from one to the other, despite people expecting it when they hear professional. What you should have probably asked is will your work be good enough to earn a living from photography? I'd say yes, it will be, against the common grain of the threads here I think your work is good for starting. There are certain points you need to read up on, DOF, affect of zoom etc etc etc, but they'll not take long for you to understand. You will need a pro camera, SLR, MF or whatever, but that's not going to make or break your work. If you're a good photographer you'll take a good photograph with your phone, if you're a bad photographer, you can mix a Canon EOS 1Ds Mk3 with Lightroom 3 and Photoshop CS5 and a big, fat, juicy memory card and it'll not make any difference, your work will still be awful.

If someone is happy with your work and is happy to pay you, that's the real acid test, the proof of the pudding and the rest, not what someone here tells you about how they don't like your style....or that you're going to be sued.

Now...

Derrel, you're reply wasn't helpful and was, bluntly, incorrect. It wasn't helpful because, when I read it, it came across as unbelievably patronising. You're incorrect because (a) you don't have to rotate...camera....to portrait....orientation, it's commonly held that cropping up to half the forehead makes for a very good portrait and (b) Jonib101 didn't 'butcher' 5 out of 5 portraits. 

KmH...what sort of 'help' is that? Yes, there are areas of photography business that are not to do with photography, people sort them out when they are required to. But in the vein of your reply; were you asked about them? Are you a professional tax / business advisor? Do you honestly, really, truly, think your reply was useful, answering the question asked, or leading the discussion onwards? I don't.

ivomitcats, do you cross a road at all, because people have actually been killed by passing cars. It's happened before. Do you fly at all, because people have actually been killed in plane crashes. It's happened before. Do you stick your face in a fan at all....well, I'm sure you know where this is going...like KmH, you're not really leading the discussion onward with this, all you're doing is scaremongering and making unrelated points. 

Now before someone jumps up all bloated with righteous indignation and froths at the mouth typing a reply tellng me I'm wrong because 'he's been thanked 1,000 times in half a thread' or 'she's written over 1,000,000 threads in a day' or 'they've got a really long lens on their camera' read my signature and ask yourself is it worth it?

Steve


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## Christie Photo (Jun 18, 2010)

Steve Reddin said:


> I've been watching this thread for a while...



Gee, Steve....  a bit too much caffeine today?

I get your point.  Now, what about the original question?  Any response to that?

-Pete

BTW:  Derrel really is a good guy.  He was making a joke.


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## Steve Reddin (Jun 18, 2010)

Well, my second paragraph starts as 'First, just your initial question...' so I think I've already addressed that one.


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## supraman215 (Jun 18, 2010)

"Happy clients buy more." I think everything else has been said here. If I've learned anything working in marketing for the past 10 years is that keeping clients happy is all that matters. SO use the money you make to buy yourself a new camera, keep reading and learning and take the initiative and drive you have and don't lose it. It's the MOST valuable thing you have. Making clients happy will do more for your ability to make money than anything else. But READ READ READ. As mentioned you do have plenty of time. 

From my experience on this site KMH and Derrel have a very rough bedside manner. However they are actually trying to help, just in their own way.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 18, 2010)

Steve Reddin said:


> Well, my second paragraph starts as 'First, just your initial question...' so I think I've already addressed that one.



Doah!  Honest...  I read that twice and still missed it.

Thanks.

-Pete


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## Steve Reddin (Jun 18, 2010)

Ha, Pete, you see, I'm drinking too much caffeine....and you're not getting enough...


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2010)

Sorry steve, but my reply was extremely good advice. I used to be a full-time professional portrait shooter, some 20-odd years ago. There's a really,really,really,really,really,really basic rule in portraiture,and especially professional portraiture: when the subject is taller than it is wide, the camera will be oriented in the vertical direction.

A head and shoulders "portrait" with the forehead lopped off and NO SHOULDERS is a floating head...it's a butcher job. Sorry Steve, but did you happen to look at the Google search results I posted, linking to "famous portraits"? Some of those famous portraits are over 450 years old, and you know what Steve, 99 percent of them are framed in the vertical or "portrait" orientation. Hmmm...I wonder why....

Until a 16 year old girl using a point and shoot learns the primal rule of professional portraiture, she is in no way headed toward becoming a "professional" at portraiture. She can't even get a head shot right, or a head and shoulder shot right because she's shooting in the absolutely,totally WRONG camera orientation for a portraiture subject in head shot, or head and shoulder, or half-body poses...so, Sorry Steve, your attack on my advice doesn't hold much stock with me. Every single one of her shots would have been improved if the camera had been rotated to "portrait" mode. Every shot.

Why do you think experienced photographers so often try and call vertical "portrait mode" when talking to newbies, and why has the use of the term "landscape mode" become popular as more and more untrained shooters hit the scene???


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## Steve Reddin (Jun 18, 2010)

Derrel, I don't intend to get involved in an elongated debate with you. My comments weren't just on your advice (I don't agree with your assessment of her work and I certainly don't agree with your justification through stagnant rules and old ideas) but also on the manner in which you gave it.

If that doesn't hold stock with you or you don't believe I made any valid points...like my signature says...as usual...I don't care...


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## assentingsilence (Jun 18, 2010)

While I agree with what Derrel is saying...I also agree with what Steve is saying.  You guys are arguing different points.

Look...the simple fact of the matter is that you can call yourself a professional at whatever you want and NOT be a professional or produce professional quality work.  This young lady CAN make money doing this.  It's a very simple concept...the customer/client will buy whatever they like.  If the don't like it, they won't buy it.

Now, this young lady should NOT take someone's money before showing them the pics she has taken.  If they like the pics, they will pay her for them.  If they don't like the pics, she doesn't print them and everybody goes on their merry way.  Nobody has lost anything but a little time.  

jonib101...take the criticism and advice of the people on here with a grain of salt.  Learn from it, but don't be discouraged by it.  Practice and learn and if you can get paid for your work, then do so.


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2010)

http://www.worldart.com.au/images/mona-lisa1.jpg

http://netdna.webdesignerdepot.com/uploads/iconic_portraits/dkmb86g_765ctzqfpcp_b.jpg

http://dcist.com/attachments/dcist_sommer/Washington_(3).jpg

http://pics.livejournal.com/christabel_daae/pic/0000k7ff

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/William_Shakespeare_Chandos_Portrait.jpg

http://www.artquotes.net/masters/vangogh/vangogh_selfportrait1889.jpg

rotate...camera..to vertical...understand compositional principles....dating back...hundreds and hundreds of years...give people a portrait of themselves, not 30% empty space on the left, 20% of them, and 50% of the frame filled with empty, meaningless space on the other side of the frame. Simple.


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## bigtwinky (Jun 18, 2010)

Steve Reddin said:


> If that doesn't hold stock with you or you don't believe I made any valid points...like my signature says...as usual...I don't care...


 
But yet, care enough to reply? 

I agree with Steve's somewhat point about old ideas and old ways.  Things need to be changed, old ways of doing things should be stretched, redone and molded into something new.  This is how things improve.

However, in order to do that molding and changing, one must first understand where these old ideas come from.  They are old, they have stood the test of time, why?  Because they work.  Should they be the only way?  No, absolutely not.

Just like saying there are compositional rules in photography like the rule of thirds that someone should follow.  Learn it, master it, then break it!

But know why you broke it.


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## ifi (Jun 18, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> Thank you everyone for commenting. I'm using a point and shoot camera.. no interchangable lens. All of these are edited, and I think that's why the DOF looks a little strange. So maybe I need to work on my editing rather than my DOF? Here are the originals


Great shots, especially for a point and shoot :thumbup:

You need more experience with various types of equipment and photography in general then you can be a professional photographer


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## Christie Photo (Jun 18, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Sorry steve, but my reply was extremely good advice. I used to be a full-time professional portrait shooter....



Looks like the joke's on me.

Derrel, I'm still shooting portraits.  Been doin' so since the 70's.  I've never heard of any such thinking in the professional community.  In fact the first print ever I had "hang" at convention was a horizontal portrait of an individual.

And, really...  I think the "portrait/landscape" terms came out of computer printers for less-than-stellar secretaries that don't know the difference between vertical and horizontal.

Here's a few from the PPA Loan Collection:

http://www.leavittphoto.com/loan/manssearchformeaning.jpg
http://customdigitalimages.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834552d9a69e20120a59d127a970b-320wi
http://www.ppa.com/ppa-today-blog/China RSN-0605-2 Comp.jpg


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2010)

Are you regularly lopping off foreheads and shooting floating heads?

If you don't know how to orient your camera properly or to complete a pose, it's no fault of your own. There's hundreds of years worth of guidance available on composition. Most self-taught shooters don't understand compositional ideas either. Your example of the punk rocker is a crappy photo,typical of an internet aged newbie. Plenty of room left for a huge,gaudy copyright, but no real impact from the empty space. The old Chinese man smoking the cigarette--well, there's actually a "subject" in the compositional space on the left hand side--ie, the cigarette. So, that picture is framed horizontally, for a ***reason***. The OP has no reason or rationale for the horizontal framings....no merit to them at all.

 The little girl shot...looks pretty weak...


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## jonib101 (Jun 18, 2010)

Steve Reddin said:


> Hi jonib101,
> 
> I've been watching this thread for a while; I wasn't going to reply as there had already been feedback on the work and there's no point in just repeating what others have said, however I've had to respond to some of the....less helpful....comments that have been put on here. Why? Because I thought this forum was supposed to be helpful to newcomers, I thought I'd finally stumbled across one that didn't operate as a click, I thought the replies (whilst being repetitive) were on the whole, fairly well balanced and to the point but, God help me, I think I've just be lured into a false sense of security...
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you very much.


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## jonib101 (Jun 18, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Until a 16 year old girl using a point and shoot learns the primal rule of professional portraiture, she is in no way headed toward becoming a "professional" at portraiture. She can't even get a head shot right, or a head and shoulder shot right because she's shooting in the absolutely,totally WRONG camera orientation for a portraiture subject in head shot, or head and shoulder, or half-body poses...


 

Thank you very much for your advice. I understand what you were trying to say now. At first it seemed more like a mock than a help. I don't believe there is a right way of photography, but I understand that there are guidlines that would definitely improve my work. Thank you, and sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## jonib101 (Jun 18, 2010)

assentingsilence said:


> jonib101...take the criticism and advice of the people on here with a grain of salt. Learn from it, but don't be discouraged by it. Practice and learn and if you can get paid for your work, then do so.


 
Thank you.


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## Christie Photo (Jun 18, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Are you regularly lopping off foreheads and shooting floating heads?
> 
> If you don't know how to orient your camera properly or to complete a pose, it's no fault of your own. There's hundreds of years worth of guidance available on composition. Most self-taught shooters don't understand compositional ideas either. Your example of the punk rocker is a crappy photo,typical of an internet aged newbie. Plenty of room left for a huge,gaudy copyright, but no real impact from the empty space. The old Chinese man smoking the cigarette--well, there's actually a "subject" in the compositional space on the left hand side--ie, the cigarette. So, that picture is framed horizontally, for a ***reason***. The OP has no reason or rationale for the horizontal framings....no merit to them at all.
> 
> The little girl shot...looks pretty weak...




Now, Derrel...   deep breath now...

Of course I'm not loppin' off heads and the like.  I learned a long time ago that I can always crop and image but can't add later.  So I tend to shoot with plenty of room (probably too much).

These aren't "my" examples.  These come from the Professional Photographers of America (PPA) traveling Loan Collection.  You've been around the block a few times.  You must know how hard it is to get a print into that collection.

You've seen my work.  You know how traditional my approach is.  But I don't think any one's work that doesn't conform to MY standards is crap.  And I'm not one to go for "different for the sake of being different."  Sometimes "different" seems to be more important than being "good."  But some negative space in a portrait (especially an illustrative/fine art portrait) is not always a bad thing.

I too am not a fan of shooting in really close with too short of a lens.  But you can't force-feed conventional thinking (as much as I'd often like to).

It's OK, Derrel.  Really.

-Pete


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## Raizels (Jun 20, 2010)

I might repeat what others have said, but I'd like to offer my opinion anyway.

In my humble opinion, (and please take into account that I'm a beginner), you cannot call yourself a professional. You obviously have little background and no training, not to mention the unprofessional gear. Most importantly, for a professional, experience is vital. Shooting with a P&S for a year is not nearly enough.

What you do have, I think, is an eye, and I think that with guidance you might become a good photographer. Patience, practice, instruction - you'll get there.

I think if someone is happy to pay you for your work, accept it - but I wouldn't market myself as a professional at your current level. Clients will expect something better and be disappointed.  

Come and join us in the beginners forum, post your pics and start learning.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 20, 2010)

Portraits should almost always be shot vertically. The focus is off in a couple of the shots. Auto-focus is unreliable.


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## Sebastian Riel Ph. (Jun 22, 2010)

JackRabbit said:


> That guy has no idea what he is talking about. And to answer your question, probably not. You need a whole helluva lot more experience before you should start charging people.  Just judging from the photos you posted in this thread, you could still use a whole bunch more on location training.  Just keep shooting for the fun of it and eventually people will see that your work is excellent and they will hire you for paid jobs



  You don't need any experience at all to start charging people. I haven't read all the replies but it looks to me like you saturated the eyes without sharpening them because they look soft and out of focus.


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## Village Idiot (Jun 25, 2010)

jonib101 said:


> assentingsilence said:
> 
> 
> > jonib101...take the criticism and advice of the people on here with a grain of salt. Learn from it, but don't be discouraged by it. Practice and learn and if you can get paid for your work, then do so.
> ...


 
Step 1: Get a job.

You can get nice used capable DSLRs for under $400. Get a kit lens and a cheap prime like a 50mm f/1.8 for about $100 and you're off to a good start.

If you want to shoot people, you have to learn about lighting. Truthfully, the exposures are at least good in your posted photos, but overall they're a bit flat.

Learn about lighting, manual modes (because if you start shooting with anything but a TTL speedlight, then it's absolutely necessary to use), composition, posing, etc...

Learn. That's probably going to be the biggest piece of advice I can give you. You'll eventually find out why 100% of professional photographers won't get out of bed for $15. 

If you learn and do a good job and become proficient, you're going to have a client base that will be proud to show off the photographs you've created for them and will in turn bring you new business. I'd be ashamed to show people those photos and tell them that I paid for them.

I mean, I'm doing a personal project now with building a portfolio of local musicians and the last one I shot I haven't delivered because I'm not sure it's something I want other people to associate with me. The conditions just weren't right and so it didn't turn out.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 25, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Sorry steve, but my reply was extremely good advice. I used to be a full-time professional portrait shooter, some 20-odd years ago. There's a really,really,really,really,really,really basic rule in portraiture,and especially professional portraiture: when the subject is taller than it is wide, the camera will be oriented in the vertical direction.
> 
> A head and shoulders "portrait" with the forehead lopped off and NO SHOULDERS is a floating head...it's a butcher job. Sorry Steve, but did you happen to look at the Google search results I posted, linking to "famous portraits"? Some of those famous portraits are over 450 years old, and you know what Steve, 99 percent of them are framed in the vertical or "portrait" orientation. Hmmm...I wonder why....
> 
> ...



I agree with this post. The photos need to be vertical. People are _vertical _(well, most of the time) . She needs to see what really good, professional portraits look like. This isn't a Cinemascope movie. You can turn the camera 90 degrees. You ought to!

I think people see so many movies in wide-screen it doesn't bother them to see badly framed portraits. While I'm at it, wide screen films are almost always bad. The aspect ratio is very unfortunate for most scenes. Cinemascope is great for movies about snakes, whales, railroad trains, submarines, torpedoes, fish, blimps.......


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## jwnelson65 (Jun 28, 2010)

Personally, what does the camera really matter? I've seen good photographs from a phone. It's like the Harley, Jap bike argument. If the customer is happy, they are happy. I'm guessing, if she hadn't told you the pics were shot with a point and shoot, you'd have never known. Unless you looked at the exif data. My self, I think she is off to a damned good start. You can't make everyone happy with what you do. Keep practicing. I think you have a pretty good eye for photography.


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## Village Idiot (Jun 29, 2010)

jwnelson65 said:


> Personally, what does the camera really matter? I've seen good photographs from a phone. It's like the Harley, Jap bike argument. If the customer is happy, they are happy. I'm guessing, if she hadn't told you the pics were shot with a point and shoot, you'd have never known. Unless you looked at the exif data. My self, I think she is off to a damned good start. You can't make everyone happy with what you do. Keep practicing. I think you have a pretty good eye for photography.


 
So if you show up as a professional to shoot corporate headshots and are using a camera phone, then you don't think you're going to be laughed out of the building?


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## jwnelson65 (Jun 29, 2010)

> So if you show up as a professional to shoot corporate headshots and are using a camera phone, then you don't think you're going to be laughed out of the building?



I agree with that, but most didn't realize it was a point and shoot camera until she told us. But, then again, you get what you pay for. I doubt she'd be going for coporate headshots with a point and shoot either. I think she did a better than average job, with what she had to work with.


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## ivomitcats (Jun 29, 2010)

I thought it was pretty obvious it was a point and shoot camera tbh. Mostly because of the poor editing job. 

Can someone close this thread? I think everyone's bastardized this poor girl and argued with eachother enough. No one takes THIS much interest in GREAT threads on here.


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## j-digg (Jun 29, 2010)

ivomitcats said:


> No one takes THIS much interest in GREAT threads on here.


 

If only


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## kombizz (Jun 30, 2010)

nice work, although it is not my taste to have images soft


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## skieur (Dec 27, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Steve Reddin said:
> 
> 
> > Just like saying there are compositional rules in photography like the rule of thirds that someone should follow. Learn it, master it, then break it!
> ...


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## JJYRQI (Dec 27, 2010)

Nice shot's, but not stunning photos. If you don't got "good" dslr, you should get one to get on next step ahead.
I think you are not professional.
I think you can be professional. 

But you need to be brave!
Just keep shooting and trying everything, break the rules, try different things, take pictures from up, from down, crop heads, crop noses, try everything! You will see what work's and which doesn't. And you can always ask advice from other people, don't be afraid, just shoot! 

Good luck!


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## changoleon (Dec 27, 2010)

To much soft focus


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## Patrice (Dec 27, 2010)

jwnelson65 said:


> I agree with that, but most didn't realize it was a point and shoot camera until she told us.



The photos presented were taken with a finepix s5100 on program mode at a near end of its 10x zoom.

Joni,

You do have a good eye. Your model's eyes are open and they have a pleasant expression. Kuddos to you for not presenting underexposed photos with half shut eyes and no central idea of what is presented. You need to learn to take control of your camera. Step back a bit and use the middle to long end of your zoom. The perspective of a longer focal length is for the most part pleasing to the human face. Use aperture priority for control of DOF if you are not comfortable with manual settings. Your camera is capable of working with off camera lighting. Explore the possibilities of a cheap vivitar flash and an inexpensive umbrella. It is very difficult to control focus with an electronic viewfinder, it's difficult at best with almost all of crop sensor visual viewfinders. You'll just have to practice with your camera and learn it's peculiarities. Try pre-focussing on the eyes and recomposing before pushing the shutter button all the way. Give yourself some cropping mode. You don't need to compose so tight that you don't have any wiggle room left for cropping a bit.

Good luck and keep at it.


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## kayliana (Jan 7, 2011)

People will say a lot about your pictures on this forum, but they are just looking to help   I like  vertical portraits better, and that is you standard way of taking portraits.  However, there are a lot of neat pictures taken horizontal, try both!  You should work on getting the pictures better in the camera, not work on getting better at editing them, it will make your job much easier.  I'm not professional, but my advice to you is to shoot, shoot, shoot.  Try new things, and you will develop your own style.  Good luck!


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## MommyOf4Boys (Jan 7, 2011)

I think the thing that stands out the most to me is that all but one of them have eyes that are not sharp.  In portrait photography, especially headshots like you are demonstrating here, the main focal point should be the eyes.  These are too blurry, so perhaps "practice" on a subject a bit more and I would suggest if you want to go pro for income that you might want to take some classes or find a mentor and THEN go for pro quality gear..The SLR or DSLR body will not be as important as the glass you put on it, just keep that in mind.


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## Bram (Jan 7, 2011)

Okay fist off you're 16, go to school, stay in school. Learn more about the business. I am no professional but this is my $0.02. 

Nobody, anywhere is going to take a 16 year old with a P&S camera seriously. Go ahead invest time and money into the business, I doubt you will get serious clients. Learn aperture, composition, ISO. All that basic stuff, then go buy a DSLR, learn it inside and out which will take you a couple years maybe. No need to rush any of this. You're 16.

For the C&C you asked for, I think the originals look almost identical to the edits, what softwre did you use? Also most of the images look OOF (out of focus). Like mentioned before your DOF (Depth of field) is a littl akward? I don't know the word i'm looking for. 

Get familiar with your camera, ask for a beginner DSLR for a birthday or something. 
Best of luck!


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## Jessielee13 (Jan 7, 2011)

This girl has not posted since 6/18/2010... she probably doesn't even take photos anymore. I understand that most people are beginning in photography and love the c&c and that is what we are out looking for, as was this young lady, criticism of the photos, understandable, telling her to keep her dream alive and keep shooting but she isn't at that level as of yet, of course she needs to know the truth. Wording things in a rude way and everyone repeating what has been said time and time again by everyone before you, is getting a little ridiculous.  You all are harping on the fact that she is 16 and needs to stay in school and get her education and tearing her apart for asking a question. SHE IS 16! She is a child, everyone rushes when they are that age cut her some slack. No you are not ready to collect money for your photos as of yet, learn the basics, upgrade from your point and shoot, take as many pictures as you can of anything you see, and one day you will be able to... dream big but keep your feet on the ground.


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## o hey tyler (Jan 8, 2011)

Bram, just curious... But aren't you ~16?


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## manaheim (Jan 8, 2011)

Speaking from experience... you don't need to be good to charge people.  Do I think it's a good idea to be good as a prereq?  Yes.  Do you need to?  No.  Depends on who you are and if you can live with yourself.

Speaking as a person who doesn't do a lot of people shots, but who pays attention to it a lot... some of these are ok, the first one struck me as pretty bad.  I've seen worse, but I would put you at "clearly entry level".  

If you care about quality (and I suspect you do), I would make a study of the area, look at other professional examples, and learn as much as you can about composition and the mechanics of photography.

Whatever the case, learn as much as you can about the business elements before diving in.  That (no matter your experience with the camera) will serve you the most effectively.


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## daarksun (Jan 15, 2011)

We can tell you yes and no in our opinions. But the reality is, If you can get someone to pay you and be happy with the product you provide - then your there. 

You definitely should learn to use some editing software and purchase some really good software.  You need to ability to remove blemishes, adjust contrast, brightness and hue - fix discoloration on the teeth, remove a pimple, increase eye color or remove blood shot eyes. There's more to taking a picture then just pulling if from the camera when your doing it professionally. Portraits are not just close-up images. Sometimes you need their entire head in the shot, bust shots, fill figure images. You need to know lighting, flash and have a place to actually do that. 

Make sure focus points for the photo are correct. The first image is focus and the boys hand when it should be on his eyes.  Some of the others lack sharpness throughout the image  and are overexposed.  

But it isn't one of us that will tell you if your ready. If you can make money I guess you are ready. Then its time to create a business plan that will allow you to expand your business and really make some money.


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## rabman (Jan 15, 2011)

who revived this 7 month old thread?


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## thomas30 (Jan 19, 2011)

You are a professional photographer. These photos are the collection of your best work. one one photo out of 5 needs to give some hands.


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