# Plethora of lighting questions....



## jwbryson1 (Oct 23, 2012)

1.  When shooting into reflective umbrellas with a speed light, should the flash unit be zoomed all the way out?

2.  Does the zoom range make a difference on how far the light will reflect on a bounced umbrella?  In other words, if the flash is zoomed towards the umbrella will the light reflect further?

3.  Will zooming the flash towards the umbrella draw more power from the batteries and thus kill them quicker?

4.  Should the illumination pattern on the flash be set to standard, center weighted or even (these are the 3 options on the SB-700), or does it not make a difference?

That's enough for now...I'm sure I will have more later....


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## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

1) Darkened room with willing human subject (bribed/payed to be your Human Test Dummy)

2) Your gear

3) Note pad

4)Camera

5)Afternoon of testing.


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## jwbryson1 (Oct 23, 2012)

Derrel said:


> 1) Darkened room with willing human subject (bribed/payed to be your Human Test Dummy)
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> 2) Your gear
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Yeah yeah yeah, I know....this is the answer I was expecting.  Hoping to save some time and trouble....:study:

Okay, I will submit the results of my tests next week.  Sigh...


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## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> 1.  When shooting into reflective umbrellas with a speed light, should the flash unit be zoomed all the way out?



Maybe. Usually you want to most complete coverage without spill. Does that describe your flash when zoomed out all the way?



jwbryson1 said:


> 2.  Does the zoom range make a difference on how far the light will reflect on a bounced umbrella?  In other words, if the flash is zoomed towards the umbrella will the light reflect further?



Yes. The light will be more intense, hence the reflection will be more intense. Of course, the coverage may suffer.



jwbryson1 said:


> 3.  Will zooming the flash towards the umbrella draw more power from the batteries and thus kill them quicker?



Yes. It will use battery power to zoom the flash head. It will not draw extra power to fire the flash.



jwbryson1 said:


> 4.  Should the illumination pattern on the flash be set to standard, center weighted or even (these are the 3 options on the SB-700), or does it not make a difference?
> 
> That's enough for now...I'm sure I will have more later....



Never had a flash with an illumination pattern option, so I couldn't tell you.


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## tirediron (Oct 23, 2012)

Since when did four constitute a "plethora"? :scratch:


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## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Since when did four constitute a "plethora"? :scratch:



It's inflation, dude...four just isn't worth what it once was...it's been promoted (well, inflated) to plethora!!!


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## Village Idiot (Oct 23, 2012)

Also, a neat trick for a harsher light without going completely bare is to fold the umbrella up some while shooting into it. It makes the light source smaller and will provide a more contrasty image compared to a fully open umbrella.


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## jwbryson1 (Oct 23, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Since when did four constitute a "plethora"? :scratch:




<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik" target="_blank">


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## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

For The Win!!!!!


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## BluePhotoFrog (Oct 23, 2012)

I'll be curious to know what you find out about this. I'm only guessing, but it seems to me that the zooming of the flash will have little or no effect on the output of reflection in an umbrella. I can't imagine the flash is going to be more than a couple of feet (if that) from the reflective, concave surface. Being that close to the light source I doubt the focus of the light would change significantly. Likewise, it shouldn't effect the range, nor should it effect the efficiency (power consumption) of the flash.


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## jwbryson1 (Oct 23, 2012)

BluePhotoFrog said:


> I'll be curious to know what you find out about this. I'm only guessing, but it seems to me that the zooming of the flash will have little or no effect on the output of reflection in an umbrella. I can't imagine the flash is going to be more than a couple of feet (if that) from the reflective, concave surface. Being that close to the light source I doubt the focus of the light would change significantly. Likewise, it shouldn't effect the range, nor should it effect the efficiency (power consumption) of the flash.




I will try to post my results here for all to see.  My guess is that zooming may affect how far the light reflects, but I dunno.  It may be hard to tell just what a difference zooming actually makes.

I think the even illumination pattern may affect the light versus standard too, but man--I'm really not sure.  :scratch:


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## Buckster (Oct 23, 2012)

The flash zoom feature uses the flash housing to act as a short snoot so (without testing it) I'd guess that it would provide less coverage in the umbrella and therefore probably produce a hot spot, like having the flash too close to the umbrella.  It's a very short snoot though, so maybe not enough to make much difference.


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## pgriz (Oct 23, 2012)

I've tested this and found with my setup that the umbrella had to be at the maximum extension to allow the flash to "fill" the umbrella with light, otherwise, as Buckster noted, you get a hot spot.  Further experimentation showed that the best (umbrella) fill in my case was with the flash head set to "wide".  This resulted in the whole umbrella being illuminated evenly, which is what I was going for, since I was trying to get a "large" source.  But it depends on the flash, the umbrella curvature, the distance of the umbrella from the flash, etc.  Each of my umbrellas has a different configuration that results in it giving even light across the umbrella surface.  The way I check this is by positioning my camera approximately at the distance the subject woud be at, aiming the umbrella at the "subject" and then adjusting the flash power so that the light pattern is discernable.  My initial setup almost always gives a hot spot in the interior of the umbrella, and various manipulations are usually necessary until the whole umbrella is evenly lit.  I've written down the setup for each umbrella, so I spend less time while setting up in getting this even light.


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## Derrel (Oct 23, 2012)

zOMG--you like, actually tested all your gear...and made notes...

...how terribly pragmatic of you...


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## pgriz (Oct 24, 2012)

Yeah, I'm kinda anal that way.  I tested my camera's dynamic range (about 9 stops), accuracy of AF focus (pretty good outside of  15ft, less so closer in), how ETTL behaves under different conditions (the engineers behind this obviously have a quirky sense of humour), etc.  In doing so, I get a much better idea of just what I can expect of my gear.  Doesn't everyone?


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## Mike_E (Oct 24, 2012)

Having the light go further is a bad idea, the point is to soften the light  softer = closer = larger


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## Village Idiot (Oct 24, 2012)

Mike_E said:


> Having the light go further is a bad idea, the point is to soften the light  softer = closer = larger



Unless you can give up a softer light because you're looking for less fall off.


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## jerrykraus (Oct 24, 2012)

There are different shapes to umbrellas, as well as different type of fabrics that are used. 

1. For softer light, use a non metallic and non glossy white fabric. This is what you want to use for portraits.

2. umbrellas that have a shallower depth deliver a softer light, those with more depth deliver a more concentrated and harder light.

3. Use a zoom that will deliver light to both sides of the umbrella for softer light, setting it to only cover the center will deliver a harder light.

4. Metallic silver coverings give a harsher light, shiny silver coverings give the harshest light. 

5. Some umbrellas also have a translucent fabric cover over the from to soften the light even more.

6. Some umbrellas have a translucent fabric to allow you to shoot through it. This give a slightly harsher light and also increases specular highlights.

7. A Speedlight is rectangular and will not be as efficient in an umbrella as light with a parabolic (round) reflector is.

8. You can get adapters that hold 3 or more speedlights to fill the umbrellas surface more, but then it is getting unwieldly.


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## Derrel (Oct 24, 2012)

*Nice post by jerrykraus above!!!*

A good article that discusses umbrellas, and which also SHOWS the type of light produced by a number of different kinds of umbrellas is here: Rob Galbraith DPI: PLM umbrellas offer sweet combo of efficiency and softness

Look at the slide show on the second page, at Rob Galbraith DPI: Comparing softness, brightness and light cast

Also, look at the chart Rob has, showing the actual, metered brightness difference between a 580 EX II set to 14mm, 24mm, and a couple umbrellas shot at 80mm and 105mm zoom setting. He also has some comments, like this one: "_As you can see, the 580EX II's 24mm zoom head position hits the brightness sweet spot with the PLM 64" Silver. Zoom in more than that and brightness begins to drop. Plus, light softness is reduced. Pulling out the built-in diffuser for 14mm coverage ups softness a bit at the expense of a slight drop in brightness. Going forward we're probably going to standardize on using the 14mm diffuser, to eek out as much softness as possible, but a case can be made for either the 24mm or 14mm setting, it just depends on whether you need a bit more light or a bit more softness._" --end quoted passage

His article shows the reason for testing one's actual gear...


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## Mike_E (Oct 24, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


> Mike_E said:
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OK, you've stumped me there.  The inverse square law is still in effect, right?  Putting a hot spot in an umbrella increases contrast for the light hitting the subject because there is less area reflecting the main portion of the flash (the scattered light being reflected would then be much less intense than the main spot and further contrast), much the same as using a smaller umbrella except that you wouldn't get the benefits of the full parabola just something more like a concave reflector.

What's the point of using a modifier designed to soften light if you just want to make it harder?  If you wanted to do that you could just use a diffuser or bounce card of some sort, we are talking about speedlights here.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 24, 2012)

Mike_E said:


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The further away a light source is from the subject the "smaller" it gets and that means harder light.

The sun is huge but its so far away the light is hard.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 25, 2012)

Mike_E said:


> Village Idiot said:
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I was responding to your statement that:


			
				Mike_E said:
			
		

> Having the light go further is a bad idea,



Yes, a zoomed in flash head will produce a harsher light and not use the reflective umbrella to it's full potential, but if you don't have another modifier or a powerful enough light and you need to light more than one object that's not at the same distance, softness of light can be sacrificed for more efficieny to produce less fall off.

I was shooting some photos for a charity event last Saturday and had this issue, but even then I didn't have enough juice to over power the sun for one of the shots I wanted because I had a speed light and not my dynalites. My Tronix battery took a dump on me and I need to do some surgery.


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## Mike_E (Oct 25, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


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Ahhh, OK, now I'm up to speed.

Sorry to hear about your battery.  Have you ever looked into Metz 60 CT4s?  You can run two on one battery pack (and either keep an extra battery or rig it to use 6v SLAs) independently with 5 stops of control of ~300 ws.  The auto thrystor is something to behold too.


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## Derrel (Oct 25, 2012)

The only time I have used the partially collapsed umbrella is for hairlight/separation light, when I wanted to very QUICKLY set up a light and did not want to set up my normal hair/separation light which is an 11.5 inch reflector with a grid, a Speedotron snap-on mylar diffuser, and barn doors...

The partially collapsed (well, MOSTLY-collapsed) umbrella I have used the most has been a 30 inch, silvered-interior model, with the flash head choked up pretty close to the opening of the umbrella. I use a piece of tape around the shaft to keep the umbrella open to just the right amount...it wants to collapse on itself...I'd guess that the opening is about 10 inches in diameter...

It's actually not that bad of a hair light/separation light... one of the things it does is it WASTES a lot of light, which is actually *helpful* in toning down the hotness on packs that do not have a lot of ratio difference, like Speedo Brown Line...since a hairlight coming in at a steep angle from behind is pretty "hot", it takes 200 Watt-seconds, and through waste-age, tones that wayyyyyy down...


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## Village Idiot (Oct 25, 2012)

Mike_E said:


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I need something for and 800-1600 w/s pack. I have speedlights and good rechargeables for when I need them and the Tronix pack for the big lights.


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## Mike_E (Oct 25, 2012)

Village Idiot said:


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I use a deepcycle marine battery and a 2kw pure sinewave inverter but I usually only break this out for >3 strobes.  About $300 and change when you include matierials to put it into a box.  I already had the two wheeler I usse to get it onsite for other misc..

The Flashpoint/Interfit/whatever strobes with the battery packs are really great for this (I have two) and they last a good while.  If you are going to need more than a hundred full pops with the 600 ws then you'd need a second battery.




Edit:  FYI the modeling lights don't work when on DC power which is why I went ahead and got the inverter.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 28, 2012)

Mike_E said:


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Those modelling lights really suck the juice from the battery quicker anyway?


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## Mike_E (Oct 28, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


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They do draw.

I did a fall festival yesterday night and got 3 1/2 hrs on a 4 light setup before I had to switch off everything to conserve power.  I don't usually leave them on but it was really dark where I set up and I thought it would be better to run down the battery than to have somebody knock over a light.


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