# Built in flash vs trigger



## hulk2012 (Mar 3, 2014)

I've using d800 on cam flash as trigger set in commander mode controlling my SB910 in remote mode. I'm wondering what benefit would be using a on cam trigger rather then built in cam flash which doesn't contribute to the exposure at all. Any idea?


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## beachrat (Mar 3, 2014)

The only real advantage that the radio triggers will give you is a bit more reliability in bright sunlight,or if the flash is not within the line of site of the camera.
In all honesty though,the Nikon system is very reliable and probably better than advertised,especially the SB-800,900,and 910.
If you aren't running into situations where the flash won't fire,you probably don't need triggers.


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## D-B-J (Mar 3, 2014)

Pocket Wizards allow more flexibility, range, and consistency, 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Braineack (Mar 3, 2014)

IF they aren't TTL triggers, you might be losing a bit of function.


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## KmH (Mar 3, 2014)

Nikon's CLS is an optical communication system that uses infrared light (IR).
Range is limited by the low power of the built-in flash unit to some 10's of feet but can be extended somewhat by using a SU-800 instead. 
Line-of-sight is usually required because of the high frequency of the IR signal. (The lower the frequency, the more a signal can 'bend' around objects)
More than 1/2 the light energy from the Sun is IR light so CLS outside can be overwhelmed making range even more limited and in direct sunlight may not work at all.

Radio triggers deliver a much stronger signal at a much lower frequency so their signal can penetrate walls, go around corners, and provide range of a couple of hundred feet
The IR light from the Sun has no effect on the radio signal so range and performance is not diminished by direct sunlight.

Radio triggers are 3rd party devices and for TTL use the communications protocols have to be reverse engineered.


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## hulk2012 (Mar 3, 2014)

KmH said:


> Nikon's CLS is an optical communication system that uses infrared light (IR).
> Range is limited by the low power of the built-in flash unit to some 10's of feet but can be extended somewhat by using a SU-800 instead.
> Line-of-sight is usually required because of the high frequency of the IR signal. (The lower the frequency, the more a signal can 'bend' around objects)
> More than 1/2 the light energy from the Sun is IR light so CLS outside can be overwhelmed making range even more limited and in direct sunlight may not work at all.
> ...



But d800 doesn't have IR built in though..


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## Mach0 (Mar 3, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> But d800 doesn't have IR built in though..



If the d800 has a built in flash that supports CLS- it does.


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## hulk2012 (Mar 3, 2014)

Mach0 said:


> hulk2012 said:
> 
> 
> > But d800 doesn't have IR built in though..
> ...



So how come my IR wireless trigger doesn't work then?


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## hirejn (Mar 4, 2014)

The benefit to what you already have is you already have it. The benefit to a good radio trigger, like PocketWizard, is it blows away the built-in commander in distance, reliability and speed of operation. And you can even expand into studio strobes with the same PocketWizards. I bought PocketWizards because I didn't want lighting to be something I had to think about too much. PWs enable me to accomplish lighting quickly and focus more on the creative aspects of the shoot rather than having to worry about menus, settings and reliability.


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## beachrat (Mar 4, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> Mach0 said:
> 
> 
> > hulk2012 said:
> ...




You're doing something wrong.
What mode is the flash set in and what mode is the on camera flash set in?


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## Braineack (Mar 4, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> So how come my IR wireless trigger doesn't work then?




Because the D800 doesn't actually have an IR reciever -- contrary to unpopular belief.

Pretty sure you need something like the WR-10 just to get IR triggering to the D800, and many other Nikon bodies.


Much cheaper/easier ways of doing it through the radio flash triggers.


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## KmH (Mar 4, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> Mach0 said:
> 
> 
> > hulk2012 said:
> ...


What make/model of trigger is it?


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## Braineack (Mar 4, 2014)

The "compatible with" list of the Nikon ML-L3 doesn't even show the D800, because, like mentioned, it doesn't have an IR receiver.

Here it is from God's own mouth:



> Sorry, but the D800 and D800E won't work with the superb pocket-sized $15 ML-L3 wireless cable release, as the cheaper cameras can. Since Nikon knows you're a big spender with the D800 and D800E, you'll have to buy the clumsy $200 ML-3 wireless release system instead to do the same thing! - Ken Rockwell


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## KmH (Mar 4, 2014)

An IR *receiver* for a remote would be a separate function from the IR signalling the D800 built-in flash unit *transmits* for CLS and flash unit control.


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## Braineack (Mar 4, 2014)

KmH said:


> An IR *receiver* for a remote would be a separate function from the IR signalling the D800 built-in flash unit *transmits* for CLS and flash unit control.



correct.  I didn't think that was the discussion at hand, since the OP said he already uses his built in flash for CLS.


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## Designer (Mar 4, 2014)

I don't know how anybody has kept this all straight.  Hasn't the OP asked two separate questions?  His confused terminology does not help.


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## astroNikon (Mar 4, 2014)

Designer said:


> I don't know how anybody has kept this all straight.  Hasn't the OP asked two separate questions?  His confused terminology does not help.


Yup, I was going to reply, until I read his last question.  So .. confused here too


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## hulk2012 (Mar 9, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how anybody has kept this all straight.  Hasn't the OP asked two separate questions?  His confused terminology does not help.
> ...



Ok I understand that but in my situation debating whether to get pocket wizard of not is quite frustrating. Especially after watching 3hr of nikon tutorial teaching how to use their speedlight CLS System control by master in the nikon camera. Guy is shooting indoor as well as outdoor and remotely being able to tweak/adjust every setting to every speedlight. He is also using unlimited amount of them in 3 groups playing with their individually. Amazing. Not sure if after investing into pocket wizard (one for each speedlight) won't limit the futures of nikon CLS. Especially adjusting/tweaking them remotely when u sitting and they are on high tripod far away etc...



My aim is to be as remote/compact as possible and that's shooting portraits on location rather being bound to my studio waiting for the client to turn up etc. Today people are already busy enough and I think my remote service turning up in clients house with mobile studio will be win win for both parties. Therefore I am trying to get as mobile as possible while buying my gear. So far I've got sb910, d800 and 3 prime G lenses. Not sure what's next and that's the point. Some advising on anther few nikon speed lights, some invest in consistent light (soft boxes).. 



I'm a bit confused here to be honest...


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## Braineack (Mar 9, 2014)

If you wanna do something like that without the built in flash, you want to use an SU800 or similar.  Much easier than sitting there for 3 hours trying to change flash settings through the menu.


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## manaheim (Mar 9, 2014)

Everyone gave you some great info, but let me phrase it a little differently.

The CLS system works AWESOME... until it doesn't. And then you're SCREWED. I used mine successfully for quite a while, until one day I needed to use it outdoors and man did it not work out. There are other situations folks mentioned that have similar problems- around corners, or behind obstructions and such.  Try to put a hair light directly behind your subject and you will see what I mean.

The TTL is a good thing to keep in mind. My pocketwizards do TTL and it makes it very easy to work with them.


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## hulk2012 (Mar 9, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Everyone gave you some great info, but let me phrase it a little differently.
> 
> The CLS system works AWESOME... until it doesn't. And then you're SCREWED. I used mine successfully for quite a while, until one day I needed to use it outdoors and man did it not work out. There are other situations folks mentioned that have similar problems- around corners, or behind obstructions and such.  Try to put a hair light directly behind your subject and you will see what I mean.
> 
> The TTL is a good thing to keep in mind. My pocketwizards do TTL and it makes it very easy to work with them.



I see. How about the futures - can you still adjust them remotely while using pocket wizard?


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## manaheim (Mar 9, 2014)

Futures?  Sorry I don't follow the question.


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## Mike_E (Mar 9, 2014)

Features.

Wireless doesn't drain the battery and it doesn't put catchlights/hotspots where you don't want them.


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## manaheim (Mar 9, 2014)

Ah.

With one of the add-ons for the PWs you can adjust exposure control on a "per flash bank" basis, but beyond that... no.


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## medic2230 (Mar 13, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> Ok I understand that but in my situation debating whether to get pocket wizard of not is quite frustrating. Especially after watching 3hr of nikon tutorial teaching how to use their speedlight CLS System control by master in the nikon camera. Guy is shooting indoor as well as outdoor and remotely being able to tweak/adjust every setting to every speedlight. He is also using unlimited amount of them in 3 groups playing with their individually. Amazing. Not sure if after investing into pocket wizard (one for each speedlight) won't limit the futures of nikon CLS. Especially adjusting/tweaking them remotely when u sitting and they are on high tripod far away etc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You could use a Radio Popper PX system and have the benefits of radio and CLS together in one. It converts the CLS signal to radio and then back to IR CLS at the flash.

RadioPopper

This also supports TTL and high speed sync.


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## WayneF (Mar 13, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> I've using d800 on cam flash as trigger set in commander mode controlling my SB910 in remote mode. I'm wondering what benefit would be using a on cam trigger rather then built in cam flash which doesn't contribute to the exposure at all. Any idea?



Just turn the internal flash off then.  

The Commander menu has a group for the built in flash.  Change the MODE there from TTL or MAN, to instead be "- -"  (one of the MODE choices).  That turns the internal flash off, and it will not contribute light into your picture.

It will still flash.  It is also the Commander (it has two functions, flash and commander), and a commander must flash commands to the remotes, but this occurs BEFORE the shutter opens.   Then after than, it can either contribute light into the picture as another TTL or MAN flash, or you can set that groups MODE to be "- -", and it will not contribute light into the picture after shutter opens.

The Command flashing before the shutter opens can cause the human subject to blink however.     FV Lock is the work around.

And commander must also flash a weak signal after the shutter opens to trigger the remotes to fire then too.  This is same as using any optical slave, with the HUGE exception that the commander trigger is very weak, very near minimum power, very near nothing - where normal optical slaves are triggered by the full working level of some other flash.    It can cause a visible highlight in close shiny things (maybe subjects eyeballs).  But except for near macro work (or f/1.8 work), it won't affect the lighting - simply too weak.   You can add the $12 Nikon SG-3IR panel to prevent that, but it is normally no issue at all (helps minimize blinking too, but the remote TTL units also do preflash, which is not affected by the the SG-3IR (but again, FV Lock is the workaround).

For more, see Using the Nikon CLS Remote Wireless Flash System

Off subject - The IR part confuses people.  *ANY flash* puts out both  visible and IR light (a strong IR component) ... just how flash tubes  work.   Photocells are sensitive to both (to either). Handheld flash  meters have a filter to pass visible and block IR (because IR does not  affect our picture, it should not affect the meter either).   But the Nikon remote flash sensors have a IR  filter to pass only the IR part (I think the Sun has a weaker IR  component than the flash, percentage wise).  The SU-800 commander has an  IR filter to pass only the IR part (helps prevent subject blinking, but  again, the remote TTL units still fire their preflash too, which can cause blinking too).  The SG-3IR  filter passes only IR (blocks visible light, which might affect our  picture or cause blinking).

The IR part is really mostly a confusion to us, we are concerned with the visible component that affects our picture.


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