# Model Mayhem  -  Oops or Awesome?



## PinkDoor (Dec 13, 2012)

Hey everyone - I finally did it (I'll probably regret it!) - but I made profile on MM. . . has anyone had any success with it?


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## Sw1tchFX (Dec 13, 2012)

Flakey is the norm.


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## PinkDoor (Dec 13, 2012)

Meh - well, poo


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## tirediron (Dec 13, 2012)

I find it runs 50-50...


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## PinkDoor (Dec 13, 2012)

tirediron said:


> I find it runs 50-50...



Are you still active? I need friends


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## Tee (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm off to a doctors appointment but I'll be back with my thoughts.  50-50 is about right but most don't take full advantage of the site.  They sign up and expect the masses to email.  You have to put in a little work and do your homework. I use MM for portfolio building for the things I'm doing on the side.  I'll PM you my MM number and we can be BFF's.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 14, 2012)

Pink... If I lived closer, I would model for you! <Wink>!


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

LOL @Charlie!  



Tee said:


> I'm off to a doctors appointment but I'll be back with my thoughts.  50-50 is about right but most don't take full advantage of the site.  They sign up and expect the masses to email.  You have to put in a little work and do your homework. I use MM for portfolio building for the things I'm doing on the side.  I'll PM you my MM number and we can be BFF's.



Yes! Please :hug::


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## cgipson1 (Dec 14, 2012)

PinkDoor said:


> LOL @Charlie!


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## CCericola (Dec 14, 2012)

I've had good experience on MM but I always pay the model. The stories I have heard about flaky models and general weirdness always involves a trade deal. I budget for modelling 2 to 3 times a year ($500 a model) to practice new ideas and things I learn from seminars.


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## tirediron (Dec 14, 2012)

PinkDoor said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I find it runs 50-50...
> ...


Johns_Photography (Can't remember what my # is and can't access it right now).


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## tirediron (Dec 14, 2012)

CCericola said:


> I've had good experience on MM but I always pay the model. The stories I have heard about flaky models and general weirdness always involves a trade deal. I budget for modelling 2 to 3 times a year ($500 a model) to practice new ideas and things I learn from seminars.


Interesting; I've had the best experiences with TF* shoots...  granted I send about five e-mails for every good shoot, but I do get some great models.  One good thing about working with new/inexperienced models is that it forces you as the photographer to direct them (an ability I see a lot of photographers lacking) if you want anything resembling a decent shot.


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 14, 2012)

usually your first shoot is the hardest to get off of there. after that it seems to go a lot easier, I have worked with half a dozen girls from there and have only had one that was a nightmare. I found I got the best responces by posting up a casting call. I use them for practicing with basically. working on my lighthing and posing. It's been great for me.


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## spacefuzz (Dec 14, 2012)

I usually work with new models who are willing to do time for pics. I had a really high flake rate until I started giving them $20 for "transportation" and havnt had one cancel since.


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## rexbobcat (Dec 14, 2012)

CCericola said:
			
		

> I've had good experience on MM but I always pay the model. The stories I have heard about flaky models and general weirdness always involves a trade deal. I budget for modelling 2 to 3 times a year ($500 a model) to practice new ideas and things I learn from seminars.



O-O

Do you not have any friends or acquaintances. $500 is quite a bit for just practice lol


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 14, 2012)

My method is to do several emails back and forth. if you really pay attention to how someone responds to you, it can give you a good impression of wether or not they will show. The one girl I was concerned about being a no show I had another girl come as well. first girl flaked like I assumed and the second girl showed up and was great. Things like if it takes them a long amount of time to respond. If they respond with short sentances and don't answer all your questions, are they giving you imput into what there hoping to get out of it. all things that will give you a good idea of who the person is.


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## nycphotography (Dec 14, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> usually your first shoot is the hardest to get off of there. after that it seems to go a lot easier, I have worked with half a dozen girls from there and have only had one that was a nightmare. I found I got the best responces by posting up a casting call. I use them for practicing with basically. working on my lighthing and posing. It's been great for me.



ModelMayem is great... but you do have to know how to use it.

I had little success with casting calls, but I did a lot better searching the models I found interesting and messaging them directly.

It's best if you have some specific shoot in mind.  Be sure to talk about what they have (clothes and makeup) and what you want them to bring.

The models get bombarded w/ creepy photographers (not always guys either) so do what you can not be one of them.  And even in NY, it's a small pool, so don't pee in it, if you know what I mean.  If you ruin your reputation, it will be very hard to find models in the future.  The models ALL seem to know each other w/ few degrees of separation, and they TALK to each other about photographers.  This means if the model feels creeped out, they will tell everyone they can, right or wrong, fair or not.  Don't stand models up, don't offer to pay and then stiff them... this is all common sense... but you'll be stunned at the stories you hear once you start meeting people in this "business".

I was always TFP.  Some will do it, some wont.  Expect starry eyed wannabes... but they are generally willing and often have good ideas to add.  

In NYC I didn't need to pay expenses, but elsewhere you might want to at least pay for gas (depending on how much value you are giving the models in trade).

You can find me there w/ the same screen name, but I haven't been shooting so I'm not that active on the site lately.


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

Great tips everyone! Look me up - ModelMayhem.com - Pink Door Boudoir - Photographer - Frisco, Texas, US


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 14, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > usually your first shoot is the hardest to get off of there. after that it seems to go a lot easier, I have worked with half a dozen girls from there and have only had one that was a nightmare. I found I got the best responces by posting up a casting call. I use them for practicing with basically. working on my lighthing and posing. It's been great for me.
> ...




See with me it was the exact opposite. could be just in the approach you use. One great point you brought up is having an idea in your head of what your wanting to shoot. Most of the models ive talked to will all ask you what your idea is, most of them want to get in on fun creative style shoots. If you go in with an idea and some thought allready in place of what you want you will have a better shot. I will also work with them to try and find things they need to add to there portfolio that they dont have. If I go thru a girls portfolio and she has mostly all bikini shots, i'll say lets not even bother with bikini shots because you allready have a ton of those. lets get you something you don't have.

And you are right. There are a ton of shady photographers out there and treat models like crap. it really doesnt take much on you part to win them over. Just treat them good, be professional and take it seriously. There are a lot of people out there who will tell you to not even bother doing TFP that you should always charge. but I have gotten paying customers from 2 of the girls Ive shot with from MM.


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## e.rose (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm echoing everyone else.  I use it... I've had a 50-50 flake rate and, yes, you can always tell of they're going to flake based on responses.

As soon as someone says they're interested, phone numbers are exchanged.  They don't wanna give me their number, I don't shoot with them.

If the shoot is farther out, I confirm two weeks out... Then the week of... Then 2 days before.

If they fail to confirm closer to the date, I write them off, cause they're gonna flake.  I've never been wrong about who was gonna flake yet, haha.

You'll start noticing patterns.


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## tirediron (Dec 14, 2012)

Holy sweet mother of Gawd...  an entire post by e.rose and not one emoticon????? WTF?  Rosie... ya' feelin' okay girl?


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## Ilovemycam (Dec 14, 2012)

Nothing ever for me at MM. But your a pro, with a beautiful book and are in a big city. You should do great! 

Good luck!



E.Rose...WOW, great pix at your sites!


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## IByte (Dec 14, 2012)

PinkDoor said:


> Are you still active? I need friends



....I'm your friend Oo.


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## IByte (Dec 14, 2012)

e.rose said:


> I'm echoing everyone else.  I use it... I've had a 50-50 flake rate and, yes, you can always tell of they're going to flake based on responses.
> 
> As soon as someone says they're interested, phone numbers are exchanged.  They don't wanna give me their number, I don't shoot with them.
> 
> ...



Lol I did not flake out, you said blonde, woman, short.  I'm tall, dark, male with raven black hair and I got booted .


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

IByte said:


> PinkDoor said:
> 
> 
> > Are you still active? I need friends
> ...



......righttttttt......I need MM friends    I have all my TPF friends!


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## nycphotography (Dec 14, 2012)

I logged into MM and went to your profile, but I cant for the life of me find any "add friend" button ?!?!


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> I logged into MM and went to your profile, but I cant for the life of me find any "add friend" button ?!?!



LOL, what is your MM#?


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## nycphotography (Dec 14, 2012)

nycphotography
685437

now it says some ish about reactivating my account... except my profile is still visible.  wtf?


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

Found you. . . next question. . . everyone post I make, my avi does not show, just a blue box with a question mark??  Is that some sort of newbie status?


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## Tee (Dec 14, 2012)

Did you designate an image to be your profile picture? My Stuff > Manage Photos > find an image and select the "set as avatar" button.  Sometimes it takes a minute to refresh.


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## nycphotography (Dec 14, 2012)

or they may have to approve it?  or its NSFW, but if that was the case, you'd get a red image saying as much.
dunno.  i'd give it a day to see if it's an overnight update / caching type thing.


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

Tee said:


> Did you designate an image to be your profile picture? My Stuff > Manage Photos > find an image and select the "set as avatar" button.  Sometimes it takes a minute to refresh.



Smarty pants - that worked!


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## orljustin (Dec 14, 2012)

If you like shooting in hotel rooms, you'll do just fine.


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## Tee (Dec 14, 2012)

I think one big thing photographers new to MM need to realize is that if they think they're going to make big bucks by charging money they need to stop hitting the hookah.  The models have the cash advantage and since 90% of the models don't meet the industry standard runway/fashion sizes, implied and nude modeling rules the day.  Vice versa, 90% of the photographers are weekend warriors or hardcore hobbyists.  I, too, budget cash to pay models who have a stronger portfolio than I which gives me better images in return.  I shoot TF as well but when I pay a model, it's my time to try new stuff and continue to progress.  One note about the MM forums.  Be careful of how you conduct yourself.  If you create an online personna that goes against the MM grain, it could come back and bite ya.    Here's some thoughts I wrote on another forum that I wanted to share here:

*Profile Red Flags:* I've photographed several dozen MM models and believe I have a higher than average success to flake rate. I truly believe the profile and portfolio review are key to success. If I see the following I will not contact a model and move on:

I always bring an escort
I will have all images burned to a disc or thumbdrive prior to leaving
text slang
other demands (I do not sign releases, etc)
Yes, I know I may be missing out on some great models but like I said, I have a high success rate, zero drama rate and I plan on keeping it that way. 


*Correspondence:* If I'm making inital contact, I keep things very professional. I avoid anything that may be perceived as suggestive or creepy. Here's what I address in initial correspondence:

What type of shoot (boudoir, artistic nude, beauty/ fashion)
Location
How long the shoot will last
Compensation (pay vs. TF)
Any other members on shoot (MUA, hairstylist, etc)
model release/ usage license
no escort policy (driver ok but drops off and leaves)
I then ask them if they would be interested in shooting and if there is anything I should be made aware of. This is a great way to know if they bring escorts in case they leave that out of her profile.

If they are contacting me, sentence structure and content are priority and essential. "Let's shoot!" and nothing else is a pass for me. Again, I know I'm narrowing my field but why take a chance on B.S.? 

*Pay versus TF:* Sometimes I pay, sometimes I don't. If I pay, their compensation is money.  I do not give them images.  A mentor early on told me it would pay off in the long run to pay experienced working models in the initial portfolio building stage. I avoided models that had blatant images by GWC's. I avoided the whole climbing of the proverbial ladder filled with hacks and wanna be's. I'm now getting TF offers from models with solid portfolios. I also heavily utilized MeetUp group shoots to begin networking and to shoot on my own. 

**Note:* if you (in general terms) can afford a D-SLR and the toys that come with it, you can afford to hire a model. Make an offer of $50 an hour with a two hour minimum. I have never been told no even when their profile states otherwise. If you can get a MUA to do TFP, the incentive is better. There are creative ways to hire a great model without breaking the bank. 

*Release/ Usage:* I have the release and usage license on two separate forms. The release gives me the right by the model to photograph her (I have different releases for nude/ non-nude). The usage details what images I will provide (finished/ unfinished), how I will provide them (CD, email, etc) and the quantity. It also has reproduction, where images may be displayed and for what purpose (commercial, portfolio, etc). 

*Escorts:* this is a hot topic and will only express my opinion but I do respect the opinion of others. For me, it's a no-go if the model demands an escort. It's not that I am going to do something creepy or cross boundries. I just simply find them a distraction. I have had a no escort policy in place for a year and haven't had any problems finding good models. Prior to, some issues I have had were: broken 50mm lens, directing model behind my back, model looking to b/f for non-verbal approval, etc. I guess what bothers me is the reflex notion that one has to instantly demand/ cave-in to escorts if it involves nudity. This goes back to my personal strict policy of how I find a model to shoot. From due diligence comes positive shooting sessions. 

*Model Mayhem in General:* Like all social networking sites, there is good and bad. I think MM can be a valuable outlet for amateur photographers such as myself to find great models who love to be in front of the camera. It just takes work and research. I personally feel that those who have bad experiences are not seeking out the right models.

Lastly, listen to your inner voice and be picky to an extent.


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## PinkDoor (Dec 14, 2012)

Great tips Tee! Any advice on "shouts" or "announcements"? Do you use them?


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## e.rose (Dec 14, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Holy sweet mother of Gawd...  an entire post by e.rose and not one emoticon????? WTF?  Rosie... ya' feelin' okay girl?



Actually... no.    I've been sick all day... and I didn't call off from work... and I was wishing I had at the time of that posting.


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## e.rose (Dec 14, 2012)

Ilovemycam said:


> Nothing ever for me at MM. But your a pro, with a beautiful book and are in a big city. You should do great!
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> ...



Thanks :sillysmi:


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## e.rose (Dec 14, 2012)

IByte said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > I'm echoing everyone else.  I use it... I've had a 50-50 flake rate and, yes, you can always tell of they're going to flake based on responses.
> ...



Sorry 'bout it.


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## tirediron (Dec 16, 2012)

Tee said:


> ...Escorts: this is a hot topic and will only express my opinion but I do respect the opinion of others. For me, it's a no-go if the model demands an escort. ...


Interesting; I'm just the opposite, at least when working with female models.  I require them to bring an escort, at least to the first shoot.  Once we've done one shoot together, then I may relax that, but for the first shoot?  No escort, no shoot.  Bear in mind of course that most of my shoots are done in secluded areas where there isn't likely to be anyone else around.  Besides, escorts make great VALs!


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 16, 2012)

escrorts can go either way. I had a shoot where the mom and sister and sister friend came. that was the flaky diva who I will never deal with again. last time was a new girl that this guy who contacted me is going to be her "agent" she was nervous. and him and his assistant who sat there joking and laughing the whole time were obviously making her even more nervous so in that regard i'd rather not have one there. too distracting.  on the other end if it's someone working with someone new then i'd want them to feel safe as well.


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## bunny99123 (Dec 16, 2012)

Wow, I know I am older, but I have modeling for free for my photographer friends. Dang, I am charging from now on!


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## tirediron (Dec 16, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> escrorts can go either way. I had a shoot where the mom and sister and sister friend came. that was the flaky diva who I will never deal with again. last time was a new girl that this guy who contacted me is going to be her "agent" she was nervous. and him and his assistant who sat there joking and laughing the whole time were obviously making her even more nervous so in that regard i'd rather not have one there. too distracting.  on the other end if it's someone working with someone new then i'd want them to feel safe as well.


I always put the escorts to work.  Just give them a reflector to hold (even if you don't need it) and they'll usually feel like they're part of the shoot and calm down.


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## nycphotography (Dec 16, 2012)

Escorts are ok... so long as they are not boyfriends, moms, sisters, or anyone else who is likely to disapprove or make the model nervous.

Also, if possible, they will wait in another room while working.  Inside earshot for a yell or cry for help, outside the work area, and outside earshot for eavesdropping.


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 16, 2012)

tirediron said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > escrorts can go either way. I had a shoot where the mom and sister and sister friend came. that was the flaky diva who I will never deal with again. last time was a new girl that this guy who contacted me is going to be her "agent" she was nervous. and him and his assistant who sat there joking and laughing the whole time were obviously making her even more nervous so in that regard i'd rather not have one there. too distracting.  on the other end if it's someone working with someone new then i'd want them to feel safe as well.
> ...




I do like them for outdoor shots. esp when im dealing with cars I always tend to invite a few cars/people and put them to work lol.


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## Tee (Dec 16, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> Escorts are ok... so long as they are not boyfriends, moms, sisters, or anyone else who is likely to disapprove or make the model nervous.



That's why I don't allow them as they are 99% boyfriends and girlfriends.  I once had a pimp show up and was booking appointments for the girl after our shoot ( I was unaware prior to the shoot she was a lady of the night).  I'm the first to admit I am very picky about communications with models on MM.  If they have even 1 image showing a wrinkled bedsheet as a backdrop, I move on.  Written profiles saying it's not a dating site, or they have a boyfriend, or they bring an escort for safety get an immediate pass.  That shows aggression and I'm not into photography for the drama.  What most of those models who fall under this category don't understand is their written word and choice of photographers is what is putting them in the situation of having to proclaim they're not there to date, etc.  Look at all the top paid traveling models on MM and they are straight up business like.  

I'm in a good spot now, though.  The guy who I rent the studio from has a huge Rolodex of non-Model Mayhem girls and he does the photography for the local cosmetics schools so I can email him with the type of girl I want (TF or paid) and make-up artist and he gets the initial communication going.  It's win-win and bypasses the troubles of MM.


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