# Living in USA/Canada pros and cons?



## mmaria (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm interested to hear your opinion on what are pros of living in USA and what are pros of living in Canada?

What are cons?

If you weren't living in either of the countries, which one you would chose to live in and why? 

* whole your family living there is not a reason for choosing a country in this thread because I want to hear objective reasons


----------



## sashbar (Nov 16, 2014)

As for USA,  one advantage is they have some good music.  






then again,

Canadian are no slouch either:


----------



## Warhorse (Nov 16, 2014)

As for the USA, it's freedom baby!!


----------



## mmaria (Nov 16, 2014)

sashbar said:


> As for USA,  one advantage is they have some good music.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


why I was expecting a serious answer on my questions posted here?

God, something must be wrong with me!


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

pros: freedom, choices, support, space, diversity of cultures/religions/races/nature. Access to more opportunities.

Cons: taxes, healthcare costs, greed, celebrity worship. Education not valued as highly. Stagnant culturally.


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

Mod note: remember no politics


----------



## mmaria (Nov 16, 2014)

Warhorse said:


> As for the USA, it's freedom baby!!


oh... this will be tougher than I thought 

lemme ask you...... what freedom!?


----------



## limr (Nov 16, 2014)

Pros (USA):
--Opportunities for different kinds of work and education
--In certain areas more than others, a multi-cultural environment, which can lead to things like very good restaurants, cultural events, interesting people to meet
--Beautiful in so many different kinds of ways. There's many different kinds of geography and climates to choose from because we're just so damn big.
--Free public education and excellent colleges
--The chance to participate in public change. The poor voter turnout generally means that change doesn't happen as often as it can or probably should, but beyond just voting, there are many ways to get involved in the community to effect important local changes.
--Civil protections by law, some of which are eroding (unless we fight back!) but some are still strong.


Cons:
--Salaries may be higher than in other parts of the world, but so is the cost of living.
--Excellent health care *if you can afford it*, which is a hardship for many people. Insurance is necessary to be able to afford anything but the most basic needs.
--That same multi-cultural environment can also cause tensions, and racial tension is still a significant issue in some areas
--To afford our living costs, we have to work a lot, sometimes more than is good for us (depending on the lifestyle, of course). There are fewer opportunities for a more relaxed lifestyle.

If I weren't living in the US, I'd move back to Europe in a heartbeat. The obvious choice would be Portugal and I'd probably end up there (Why? Lower cost of living, beautiful scenery, job opportunities (it's easier for me to survive as an English teacher there than it is here), a less stressful lifestyle, ease of travel to the rest of Europe.) But I might want to try out a few different countries first. I've got a feeling that I would enjoy Denmark or Norway.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> pros: freedom, choices, support, space, diversity of cultures/religions/races/nature. Access to more opportunities.
> 
> Cons: taxes, healthcare costs, greed, celebrity worship. Education not valued as highly. Stagnant culturally.


Agree completely but can you say something about "freedom"?
What do you consider as "freedom"?


----------



## sm4him (Nov 16, 2014)

Wow, you don't ask the HARD questions or anything, do you, Marija? 

I think that for many of us, like myself, who have never lived anywhere else--and in my case, never really even BEEN to another country (except on a cruise)--it's going to be tough to give you an objective perspective.

I live here because I've always lived here. Because it is home, and I've loved it all my life. Is it better than some other places in America? Is it better than Canada? Yes. And no.  It really depends on the person, I'd say.

Outside of the fact that I've always lived in the southeast US, and that most of my family lives within a day's drive of me here, I guess the things that compel me to stay here, as opposed to somewhere else in the US or moving to Canada:

1. The weather.  I seriously detest the cold. There is NOWHERE in Canada, that I'm aware of, that I could tolerate during the winter. I can barely tolerate Tennessee in the winter.

2. The land diversity. In no more than seven hours, I can travel to mountains (well, hills really, compared to what most call "mountains"), the beach, warmer weather, cooler weather, a lake, woods, wide open fields, or urban, active cities.

3. Our freedoms. This would rank as the #1 reason I live here, but in this specific instance, where you are asking about the US or Canada, I really don't know enough about Canadian laws and such to know how their freedoms compare to ours.

4. The people. There are few places I've been to where the people, as a whole, are as polite, friendly and helpful as the south. This is as a generalization--to be sure some are rude, pretentious bores.  And on the flip side, being objective, I'd have to say that people in the south also "tend" to be extremely conservative and...well...bigoted sometimes against those groups of people that are not like them. Again, certainly, not ALL of us are like that; not even MOST of us, I'd say. But the ones that ARE tend to be especially vocal about it.


There's so much more to it, those few things were just off the top of my head and they barely touch the surface.


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

mmaria said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > pros: freedom, choices, support, space, diversity of cultures/religions/races/nature. Access to more opportunities.
> ...




Freedom to: express yourself politically, religiously, creatively, sexually. Freedom to have the choice to live you life almost exactly as you want to.


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

mmaria said:


> Agree completely but can you say something about "freedom"?
> What do you consider as "freedom"?



Freedom is something that should be thought of as complete in and of itself.  As in; there is no such thing as partial freedom. (Note: political expression of the state of our freedom has been deleted). 

Freedom to (insert first 10 amendments to the US Constitution here).  But the Founders initially resisted enumerating them, considering freedom to be self-explanatory.  You're either free or you're not in some way.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> Freedom to: express yourself politically, religiously, creatively, sexually. Freedom to have the choice to live you life almost exactly as you want to.


From the place I'm standing, this all sounds too good but those are the most attractive pros for living in USA for me.

On the other hand... the thing I hate the most, I think, is USA's health system. Just wrong on so many levels!


----------



## Didereaux (Nov 16, 2014)

It is saddening to see the depth of ignorance Americans have of other countries. (and for you of recent education types I use the word ignorance in its true sense i.e. lack of knowledge).  I am an American, but have a long association with Canada.  We in America in the last 20 years have given up so many of our freedoms that in fact you have more in Canada.  As for those claiming lack of diversity in Canad I would advise them to visit any of the cities up there and then make that statement.  Canada has for decades had a more open immigration policy than the US.   Many assert the lack of freedom to own guns in Canada, that is a pure fiction.  Merely more regulation, but even that may change. 

As for education?  Canada still has it, the US got rid of it 30 years ago.   Costs?  quite comparable, except the Medical care id free in Canada, and arguable equal or better than that in the US.   The CONS fro Canada is really one....CLIMATE.


----------



## JoeW (Nov 16, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I'm interested to hear your opinion on what are pros of living in USA and what are pros of living in Canada?
> 
> What are cons?
> 
> ...


I am a US citizen and was born here.  I've made visits or lived in (flying over or an airport stop doesn't count) 49 of the 50 US states--just missing North Dakota.  I've been to Canada at least 40 times and the only major city I have not visited is Calgary.  Off the top of my head (and trying to be as objective as possible):

Canada pros:
--much better support system (healthcare, joblessness, work injury).  For someone coming from Western Europe, Canada will feel like less of an adjustment.
--Canadians are so damn friendly.  I think they deport anyone who doesn't meet their friendliness quotient.  There are people and places in the USA that are friendly but we just don't match up to Canadians.
--Vancouver has to be one of the best cities on the planet.  Seriously...it's a really cool place.  US cities like SF,  Seattle, NYC, Portland capture elements of it but  no US city has the total package of what Vancouver is.
--longer vacations than the US.
--much safer country.  A lot less gun violence there, lower homocide rate the last time I checked.
--VRE is better than Amtrak (comparing national train systems).

Canada cons (and by converse, some US pros):
--one long, f*cking long, hellaciously long winter.  Yeah, some US states have long winters too.  But every Canadian middle-class person or manager I've ever met owned (not rented, OWNED) a house in either Arizona or Florida.  The whole "snow birds" thing that Floridians talk about (i.e.: an RV with Quebec or Montreal license plates hitting the state in December and staying until February.
--job market is (generally speaking) much better in the USA.
--the adjustments that come with a long winter (i.e.: difficult having an outdoor garden and flowers for more than a few months, really can't have a short-haired dog unless it stays indoors 7 months of the year, really need to be in to winter sports like hockey and curling).
--an inferiority complex at times to the US.  They're big geographically but we tend to dwarf them in many other ways.
--higher taxes.
--They take the work permit business very seriously in Canada.  Very seriously. 

Pros for the USA:
--much more diverse geography than Canada (and Canada is pretty diverse).  For instance, there is nothing like Florida...or the Grand Canyon...or bayous...or Northern Arizona/Southern Utah...or Big Sur in Canada (and I didn't even mention Hawaii...volcanoes).  Not a slam on their country...we just have a wider range of places to visit and see and photograph.  Not that you'd run out of opportunities in Canada, only that the USA is an amazingly diverse country to shoot when it comes to places and land.  And I didn't even mention Yosemite and Yellowstone which are two of the most amazing collections of incredible stuff crammed in to two areas...Canada has many of those things (hot springs, waterfalls, mountains, granite faces, bears, bison, wolves) but not all in one place like Yellowstone and Yosemite which are true wonders of nature.
--more vibrant and diverse economy.  If you're looking for work, the USA offers a heckuva lot more options.

Cons for the USA:
--we're a much more violent country, a lot more gun violence.  Often times it's a big shock for Europeans coming to here (but then again, for Central Americans we seem like a bunch of nonviolent pacifists a lot of the time).
--we're at a place politically at the moment where we're kind of dysfunctional, lots of extreme right vs. left national conversation that soaks up a lot of bandwidth and attention so we don't deal with other national matters.
--our infrastructure sucks.  For the most part, airports in Europe (and Canada and most of Asia) beat the crap out of out's.  Most of our roads are in lousy shape.  Wifi isn't nearly as plentiful (unless you're willing to pay) as it is in Europe.
--we charge for a lot of stuff.  DC is a bit of an exception but expect to pay to get in to museums, galleries, and national/state parks. 
--we're getting more diverse as a country (in terms of our demographic makeup) but most white Americans only speak one language and few the rest of the world as a bunch of foreigners.   You can go anyplace on this planet and run into a lot of ignorance about other countries.   But the combination of two ocean barriers plus being such a big country where people come to us to sell things (versus us having to go overseas for jobs or to sell all of our stuff) means that we're somewhat ego-centric and see ourselves as the center of the world (somewhat like China I think).

As for arguments about "freedom"...both Canada and the USA are remarkably free.  You've got to be remarkably myopic to argue that either one is missing some key freedoms or differs greatly from the other.  Lots of economic, social, personal freedoms on both sides.  Some small differences but basically two Western  Countries who provide a lot of individual choices and have enough space where if you hate people and systems, you can go be a hermit and get away with it.

Again, these are all generalizations, plenty of exceptions to each one.   And I don't mean to offend anyone.


----------



## photoguy99 (Nov 16, 2014)

Canada is pretty far north. That means days are short in winter and long in summer. Of course this is true of the northern USA as well' but not as radically.

Cheaper health care in Canada, better health care in the USA (for a price)

Political situation pretty annoying in both places.

USA spends a lot more of your tax monies killing people in foreign countries.

More opportunities in the USA overall. Maybe not for any specific one person, though.

Canada and the USA are about as alike as two countries can be, though.


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

My biggest con is that greed gets in the way of common sense. But I think that is for most places.


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

So... is someone thinking of moving to this continent someday?


----------



## 407370 (Nov 16, 2014)

I was born in Scotland, worked and lived in Middle East / Far East /  USA / Canada. 

American gun laws just scare me, Canada is cold, Middle East is very restrictive in every part of your life so that just leaves Malaysia. 

Kuala Lumpur is my favourite city on Earth and I had my wallet stolen there. Great people and climate.


----------



## limr (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> My biggest con is that greed gets in the way of common sense. But I think that is for most places.



Yeah, I don't think that's limited to here, though perhaps it's a little bit easier to be greedy here than it is in other places.


----------



## Derrel (Nov 16, 2014)

Canada has great hockey, fabulous maple syrup, good macro beer, affordable health care, low levels of violence and low levels of gun violence, crappy weather most places, and has many, many poorly made movies.Canada also has a postal system that is the laughingstock of North AND South America. One of the real hidden strengths of Canada is the donut situation: Canada has tens of thousands of Tim Hortons coffee and doughnut shops, one every 1.18 miles( by law I think) and while the offerings are vanilla, they are clean, affordable, and more than adequate.

The USA has great American football, fake corn-sweentener based syrup, fabulous micro brew beers, very expensive health care, a violent culture and a lot of gun violence and craziness, good weather on the southern three coastal areas, and lots of movies, one out of every twenty-five worth seeing. The USA has a fast and efficient postal system. The USA depends on a fragmented network of donut and coffee shops and lacks the solid, country-wide network that is the colossus that is Tim Hortons, and the USA relies on Dunkin Donuts, Winchell's, and Krispy Kreme Donuts for its big box coffee and donut needs.


----------



## sashbar (Nov 16, 2014)

Krispy Kreme Donuts should be made illegal.


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

America's gun culture is no where near as bad as the media would have you believe. Same with violence. Crime is way down across the country.

But we have a dozen 24 hour news channels and they have to find content to fill that time so every little thing is blown out of proportion.


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way.  And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?

As far as I know, America had the most advanced medical care in the world, and probably still does.


----------



## tirediron (Nov 16, 2014)

Speaking from the Canadian perspective (and as one who has spent a LOT of time in North Mexico over the years) in many ways there's very little difference.  If you want a European analogy, Canadians are to Americans as Belgians are to Germans.  We tend to be a little more introverted and less overtly patriotic then our southern cousins, but we're also (as a nation) more analytical and less likely to jump into a situation without some hard thought.  

Health-care is often cited as a major attraction by Canadians, but it's not quite as good as some would have you think.  Yes, you can be in a car accident, be taken by ambulance to a hospital, x-rayed, treated, etc and leave with exactly the same money you had in your wallet when you entered, but...  anything elective as well as "low-priority" non-elective medicine can take a longggg time.  

With respect to the issue of winters... that depends on where you go.  East of the coast mountains all the way to New Brunswick, yes, the winters range from just plain old nasty, all the way to "Holy S**t", but on the west coast where I am, snow is a rarity, and winters where it never goes below freezing aren't unheard of.


----------



## tirediron (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> America's gun culture is no where near as bad as the media would have you believe...


That depends on how you view the term "gun culture".  I have many American friends, and to them, carrying a hand-gun when they go to Wal-mart is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.  To most Canadians it's only slightly short of barbaric.  As an interesting aside, a survey some years back indicated that per-capita, Canadians actually owned more firearms than Americans.  Primarily long guns for hunting; you guys still win on the hand-gun front.


----------



## Fred Berg (Nov 16, 2014)

Designer said:


> mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way.  And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?
> 
> As far as I know, America had the most advanced medical care in the world, and probably still does.



I find this rather surprising. Here in Germany the commonly held view is that the healthcare system in the USA, notwithstanding the changes introduced during Mr Obama's tenure, are at best inadequate for an industrialised nation, and that unless you are in a fairly good financial position pretty much unafffordable. Healthcare here is certainly not cheap but nobody misses out on financial grounds; and by this I mean there is a very solid welfare state which provides cover where necessary and no-one has to rely on charitable organisations or pro bono work from doctors and dentists.


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

In our state, every hospital is required to maintain an emergency room, and anyone who goes there with an emergency is treated.  Afterward, if said person has insurance, the hospital is happy to send the bill to the insurance carrier.  If said person does not have insurance, the hospital writes it off and charges the next insured person's insurance carrier double.  So medical insurance rates can get kind of crazy, but most people think they are getting it "free" at work, so they don't complain.  Heaven help anyone who is self-employed and wants to buy medical insurance.


----------



## photoguy99 (Nov 16, 2014)

Something often left out of the picture is that the USA provides a backstop of superb (albeit expensive) health care for the rest of the planet.

When the super rich need the best care, they come here. When a Canadian needs an MRI quickly, they take a trip across the border.

Basic health care is handled much better in huge swathes of the world than it is here. The care is perfectly good and the costs are not idiotic. But this is in a part because the very top end has been clipped off and is not particularly well handled in many of those countries.

And that is a luxury they can afford because, in a pinch and if you've got the cash, you can always fly to the Mayo. This isn't an option for the unwealthy, but guess who makes the rules?

If the USA adopted, say, the Canadian system, there would be global repercussions.

As a not-wealthy person I have opinions on whether that would be good or bad, which you are free to guess as. I'm not going to state them, though.


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

When my son and DIL lived in England, she was constantly in praise of the health care system.  But then, nobody in her family needed a liver transplant, either.


----------



## Braineack (Nov 16, 2014)

Lol at canada.


----------



## Fred Berg (Nov 16, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> *Something often left out of the picture is that the USA provides a backstop of superb (albeit expensive) health care for the rest of the planet.*
> 
> *When the super rich need the best care, they come here.* When a Canadian needs an MRI quickly, they take a trip across the border.
> 
> ...



Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I raised my points with Designer above, and I think it is a fair position. People also come to European countries in this way; notably Munich is a favoured destination for medical tourism amongst rich Arabian and Russian clients, er, patients.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 16, 2014)

Out of the 2 I would only consider living in Canada we have the same Queen


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Out of the 2 I would only consider living in Canada we have the same Queen



Hey we Americans love Queen too!


----------



## limr (Nov 16, 2014)

Here's what I'll say about the health care here: If I ever get any illness more serious than a cold, then I am screwed. There are those who are wealthy and can afford it; there are others who get insurance through work, and they can afford it. There are the very poor who get Medicare/Medicaid and they don't get the benefit of those with really good private insurance, but they still get help in paying for the cost.

Then there are still millions of us who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but not earning enough to afford to pay for our own health insurance and are not getting diddly squat from our employers.

We are the ones who see this top-rate health care system right in front of us that is blocked because of the prohibitive costs. We're the ones who have to go out of the country to get care if something serious goes wrong.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Out of the 2 I would only consider living in Canada we have the same Queen
> ...


Too many people carrying guns in US


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > America's gun culture is no where near as bad as the media would have you believe...
> ...




Have you been to Walmart? I want to be armed to the hilt and have a hazmat suit on!

I again blame the media for scaring everyone into thinking that any second someone is going to try to harm them. 
But also I think it boils down to people thinking it's their "right" to to own.

But we need to tread lightly on this subject


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

gsgary said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...




Again, if you listen to the media you would assume all Americans carry all the time and it's just not the case.

I don't, none of my friends do and nor does anyone in my whole extended family.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 16, 2014)

I would be shot in the first week if someone tried to take my camera or wallet there is no way they would get it


----------



## shefjr (Nov 16, 2014)

The majority of my friends have permits which allow them to carry a side arm and I can honestly say that I know of only one person who actually does carry on a daily basis. It makes me wonder if it's a lot of misinformation being put out there that everyone in America carries a side arm. 
As an aside, it's nice to see this topic has not escalated. 
Additionally, I feel that I am blessed to live in America.


----------



## shefjr (Nov 16, 2014)

gsgary said:


> I would be shot in the first week if someone tried to take my camera or wallet there is no way they would get it


I think you are somewhat misinformed. It's highly unlikely that someone would try to take your camera. It's not the Wild West around these parts. 
You just gotta wear neutral gang colors.


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

gsgary said:


> I would be shot in the first week if someone tried to take my camera or wallet there is no way they would get it



It is pretty rough out there. I did have to bust a few caps on my trip to the corner store. To be fair, the old lady had it coming.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 16, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > I would be shot in the first week if someone tried to take my camera or wallet there is no way they would get it
> ...


I got attacked by about 10 16 year olds on the way to the pub 2 years ago, little bastards tried to get me charged for ABH always hit the loadest one first


----------



## runnah (Nov 16, 2014)

limr said:


> Here's what I'll say about the health care here: If I ever get any illness more serious than a cold, then I am screwed. There are those who are wealthy and can afford it; there are others who get insurance through work, and they can afford it. There are the very poor who get Medicare/Medicaid and they don't get the benefit of those with really good private insurance, but they still get help in paying for the cost.
> 
> Then there are still millions of us who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but not earning enough to afford to pay for our own health insurance and are not getting diddly squat from our employers.
> 
> We are the ones who see this top-rate health care system right in front of us that is blocked because of the prohibitive costs. We're the ones who have to go out of the country to get care if something serious goes wrong.



The struggle of the middle class. Too rich and too poor to do anything but shut up and pay taxes.


----------



## Gary A. (Nov 16, 2014)

I've lived and worked in Asia, Central America, Middle East, Europe, Africa and here is the USA. There are many many good places to hang your hat at the end of the day. I could have continued to lived and work in those places but I keep coming back here to California.

If I was restricted to only three descriptors for the USA they would be Freedom, Diversity and Opportunity ... for _*All*_.  Freedom of choices ... from your clothing, to sexual orientation, to education, to the arts, to pretty much everything. This country is ruled by law, now by a ruling party. Our legal system is distinct and separate from other divisions of government. Per the foundation of this country, we are all treated equally under the law regardless of ruling party or wealth or religion or ethnicity.  Those civil liberties and our choice to protect and enforce those civil liberties under rule by law ...  are what make Americans ... Americans.

Freedom:
Read our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. Those documents are the backbone of our government, republic, democracy and of our people. Those two documents are what binds this country together. The Constitution is a living document. Every single day the interpretation is challenge ... sometimes for expansion ... sometimes for restrictions. The Constitution is a people's document, any citizen can challenge or enforce the Constitution in many different ways, through our courts or through our legislators. And we vote, we vote for everything many times a year. (Unfortunately we vote so often that it is being taken for granted.) We vote for local issues, regional issues, state issues and national issues. We vote for people to manage our schools to people to manage our water, to people to manage our law enforcement, our cities, et al. As an example of our reliance with the founding documents, our armed forces do not swear to protect American citizens or American property but rather pledge to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic...".

Diversity:
I live in Los Angeles, one of those crossroads of the world. Los Angeles is amazingly diversified. When I was a city commissioner, I entertain delegations from every corner of the world who just wanted to observe who so many cultures lived together and actually benefitted from close association. There are 92 different languages spoken in the Los Angles Unified School District.

Opportunity
My father was the son of an immigrant farm worker (actually he dug wells). My father attended a segregated school. My father was restricted to where he could purchase a house. My father served 40+ years as a California State Senator, creating legislation for the sixth largest economy in the world (at the time). My father has roads, parks and a high school named in his honor. Often my father would end his speeches with "... Only in America." (The defense rests on opportunity.)

Earlier I said there are many many fine places to live other than the United States ... and Canada is one of them. I've never lived in Canada, but I feel that there isn't that great of a difference between Canada and the United States. But there is in climate. For example, the best farm climatically area in Canada butts up to the worst farmland in the US.

I am writing this from the patio where it is presently 73F. Mary Lou is trimming the Plumeria, I just finished cleaning the filters on the Koi pond. When I scan the backyard there are roses blooming, bright red and yellow peppers, melons, squash and cucumbers ready for picking. The Persimmons are thick on the tree and ready for picking are oranges, lemons, avocados, berries, tomatoes, et al.

In winter a drop on another 10 degrees, in summer 15 degrees higher. But the evenings are always cool with minimal humidity, usually the air is dry as a bone here. The worst you can say is that the SoCal weather is benign ... the  best is something like fantastic. San Diego, may just have the best weather in the world (IIRC 65F in winter, 75F in summer).

In California from Mt. Whitney, the highest peak in the CONUS, you can look straight down to the lowest spot on North America, Death Valley. We have glaciers and sand dunes, 800 miles of coast line, world class cities, our Central Valley is the bread basket of the United States, we have the oldest trees in the world (Bristle Cone Pine), the largest trees in the world (Sequoias), the largest organism that has inhabited the world swims off our coast (Blue Whale). We have the finest public university system in the world with arguably the the best public university, Berkeley and the best private university, Stanford.

In winter in Los Angeles, you can snow ski in the morning, surf or sail in the afternoon, catch a premier movie and dine at a five star restaurant  ... all on the same day. Yosemite is considered to be the most beautiful area in the world and California Highway 1 is spoken to as the most beautiful road in the world.

In summary, I think the differences between Canadians and Americans is the very strong American patriotic spirit based upon our Constitution and Declaration of Independence. (I read somewhere that the US War for Independence was the first war declared to change how a populace was governed.)

The biggest difference is climate and ecological diversity offered by the United States.

Gary

(I friend told me that the difference between a Canadian and an American is that the Canadian is a little bit more boring.)


----------



## Designer (Nov 16, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Too many people carrying guns in US



I'd rather walk in behind someone who is carrying but is not a criminal than walk in behind a criminal.

Being in a roomful of people who are armed and peaceful is very calming.


----------



## JoeW (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm not trying to make this about politics.  But here is my take to a couple of issues I raised briefly in my initial post that generated some responses.

1.  Gun violence.  Yes, violent crime is significantly down in the US.  It's been going down the past two decades.  This is very much a function of an aging populations (even violent criminals for instance become less violent as they age).  And yes, there are a tremendous amount of long guns/rifles in Canada, especially when you get up north or you're in the great plains.  That said, most Americans just don't get how the rest of the world is stunned at how comfortable we are with such wide-spread gun ownership.  And when there is a school shooting in Canada or England or Norway or Germany, it's a major shock, it's not viewed as a tragedy but just one of 20 or 30 over the past 5 years (like it is in the USA).  I'm not taking a stand on the wisdom of widespread gun ownership or crime deterence or any of that.  I'm still saying that if you're a European and you move to the USA and settle in the South or most of the West, you're likely to find it very unsettling how many guns you see or how comfortable people are with guns (even if they don't own one).

2.  Healthcare.  Most Americans like to feel like we have the world's best healthcare system.  Well, I think that's impossible to objectively measure (in part b/c it would vary based on what type of specific care you were talking about).  For instance, Costa Rica (with dentistry) is targeting Americans...yes Americans and doing so successfully.  Cuba provides outstanding healthcare in a variety of areas that beats some of the services available to Americans.  There are a number of professional sports teams in the USA who send their athletes to Germany for sports hernia surgery.  And on and on.  My point is not that the USA healthcare is crap.  It's that if money is no barrier, then a destination in the USA is not automatic and probably not even the majority of cases for the ultra rich and or educated who can afford whatever they want.  As for the impact of the ACA/Obamacare, setting aside all partisanship on this...it remains to be seen what impact it has on the quality of healthcare.  The US Supreme Court has just taken up a case before it was disputed which would allow them to overturn funding of ACA on a technicality.   

Canada and the USA, in terms of freedoms, are remarkably similar.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 16, 2014)

You can go someplace in the winter time and not freeze to death.


----------



## rexbobcat (Nov 16, 2014)

Canada has better health insurance. 

If you order a lot of stuff online, it's probably easier to get it in the USA since EVERYONE ships here.

Canada has better hockey.

USA obviously has better football, although the only good kind of watch is college. The NFL is basically a bunch of over-paid wife beaters who will probably be broke and/or in prison in the near future.

Um, if you were to move from Canada to the USA, I'd say you might not want to live in Texas....Or really anywhere in the South actually.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> Pros (USA):
> --Opportunities for different kinds of work and education
> --In certain areas more than others, a multi-cultural environment, which can lead to things like very good restaurants, cultural events, interesting people to meet
> --Beautiful in so many different kinds of ways. There's many different kinds of geography and climates to choose from because we're just so damn big.
> ...





sm4him said:


> Wow, you don't ask the HARD questions or anything, do you, Marija?
> 
> I think that for many of us, like myself, who have never lived anywhere else--and in my case, never really even BEEN to another country (except on a cruise)--it's going to be tough to give you an objective perspective.
> 
> ...



oh c'mon girls we know that the biggest con is paying up to 100$ for the hair and nails stuff!!! 

L, I know you expected a different answer from me but there's your another post I 'll reply differently. This one barely touch the surface of what has been mentioned.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Warhorse said:


> As for the USA, it's freedom baby!!





runnah said:


> pros: freedom,





sm4him said:


> Our freedoms. This would rank as the #1 reason I live here, but in this specific instance, where you are asking about the US or Canada, I really don't know enough about Canadian laws and such to know how their freedoms compare to ours.





Designer said:


> Freedom is something that should be thought of as complete in and of itself.  As in; there is no such thing as partial freedom. (Note: political expression of the state of our freedom has been deleted).
> 
> Freedom to (insert first 10 amendments to the US Constitution here).  But the Founders initially resisted enumerating them, considering freedom to be self-explanatory.  You're either free or you're not in some way.


ok... out of the first 5 people that answered on my questions, 4 of you mentioned "freedom".

Designer and Warhorse, Have you ever lived anywhere else? To compare "freedom" you may have in another countries not just in USA.

I asked "what freedom" because the first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about USA certainly isn't that.
I'm aware that once I'm in USA I wont be able to go out if I want to lead a "normal" family life. As soon as I stepped on on your territory I'll be deeply in depths.
You're so bounded by financial bounds, mortgages, paying rates for everything and anything that I could barely feel "free" in your country because I'll be busy trying to earn enough of money so I could pay everything and sleep well.

On the other hand, yeah, I get  the freedom in the sense of how runnah mentioned it:





> Freedom to: express yourself politically, religiously, creatively, sexually. Freedom to have the choice to live you life almost exactly as you want to.


 because I really can't tell that I have that freedom in my part of the world. 
You give this all but of course it comes with a certain price.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Didereaux said:


> It is saddening to see the depth of ignorance Americans have of other countries. (and for you of recent education types I use the word ignorance in its true sense i.e. lack of knowledge).  I am an American, but have a long association with Canada.  We in America in the last 20 years have given up so many of our freedoms that in fact you have more in Canada.  As for those claiming lack of diversity in Canad I would advise them to visit any of the cities up there and then make that statement.  Canada has for decades had a more open immigration policy than the US.   Many assert the lack of freedom to own guns in Canada, that is a pure fiction.  Merely more regulation, but even that may change.
> 
> As for education?  Canada still has it, the US got rid of it 30 years ago.   Costs?  quite comparable, except the Medical care id free in Canada, and arguable equal or better than that in the US.   The CONS fro Canada is really one....CLIMATE.





JoeW said:


> --..... but most white Americans only speak one language and few the rest of the world as a bunch of foreigners.   You can go anyplace on this planet and run into a lot of ignorance about other countries.   But the combination of two ocean barriers plus being such a big country where people come to us to sell things (versus us having to go overseas for jobs or to sell all of our stuff) means that we're somewhat ego-centric and see ourselves as the center of the world (somewhat like China I think).



am I allowed to completely agree with you even though I've never lived in USA/Canada?

I've met lots of USA people during my life and know enough about USA to have my own opinion. Because of "diversity of USA people" (not sure I can put it that way) I met and interact with I dare to have a generalized opinion on Americans.

I really didn't have a chance to meet enough Canadians to have my own opinion on them. 

**Generalizing is wrong, wrong, bad, bad and of course I don't think like this about every USA person. Can we now move on?

It's pretty rare to have a "normal" conversation  with Americans (about their country) and any kind of conversation without their "sense of pride and being superior to the rest of the planet".
I was a kid when I started to interact with lots of USA people and I really didn't know much about anything but I was amazed how little they know about some general stuff like geography, history... I had to know bunch of unnecessary stuff about other countries at early age because my school made me. USA schools aren't like that.

At 10 I could have a decent conversation in German and in English. German I learned in school, English I was curious and learned by myself....They knew just English and no one was interested in learning any other language... ever.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Designer said:


> So... is someone thinking of moving to this continent someday?


When I was 13 I had a few serious job offers from a few different USA organizations.
I soo wanted to go but because I was just 13 I needed the consent from my parents... After each of those organization-parents meeting I think I cried because I couldn't go. I understood my parents but my desire to leave was huge.

5 years ago I had to make a decision. Going to USA or going to the place that God forgot and get married. After months and months thinking about what will I do, I chose the second option.

My contry/ies are f.cked up. USA/Canada is a constant idea/option... lately the talks about it are intensified so I decided to ask you guys about pros and cons.

Considering everything I would probably choose Canada, but my family (the best part of it) is in USA and my second brother chose USA also. That's something I'm not sure I can ignore.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

Freedom ? I read about a lad that got life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza because of the 3 strike rule


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Designer said:


> mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way.  And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?
> 
> As far as I know, America had the most advanced medical care in the world, and probably still does.





Designer said:


> In our state, every hospital is required to maintain an emergency room, and anyone who goes there with an emergency is treated.  Afterward, if said person has insurance, the hospital is happy to send the bill to the insurance carrier.  If said person does not have insurance, the hospital writes it off and charges the next insured person's insurance carrier double.  So medical insurance rates can get kind of crazy, but most people think they are getting it "free" at work, so they don't complain.  Heaven help anyone who is self-employed and wants to buy medical insurance.


here's what I have to say


limr said:


> Here's what I'll say about the health care here: If I ever get any illness more serious than a cold, then I am screwed. There are those who are wealthy and can afford it; there are others who get insurance through work, and they can afford it. There are the very poor who get Medicare/Medicaid and they don't get the benefit of those with really good private insurance, but they still get help in paying for the cost.
> 
> Then there are still millions of us who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but not earning enough to afford to pay for our own health insurance and are not getting diddly squat from our employers.
> 
> We are the ones who see this top-rate health care system right in front of us that is blocked because of the prohibitive costs. We're the ones who have to go out of the country to get care if something serious goes wrong.


In addition to what L said...

While I was studying in another country, the University covered the health insurance. We had a student's ambulance but for something more serious we had to go in regular hospitals where the care is not covered by the University.
Long story short, one night I had to go to ER, I had two operations that night and had to spend about a week in the hospital. I was treated as a foreign citizen which meant that I need to pay a lot. My family of course didn't have that money.
What happened? There were some boards and meetings of medical experts from both of the countries justifying  the emergency of my operations. They came to conclusion that the operation was indeed that urgent and that I couldn't go to my country and have it at that moment. So, the health insurance from my country paid for it. Can that happen in USA also?

For years I had to go to ER once a month to get two different painkiller injected. How much would that be?

I must do the lasik surgery. It's completely up to me when I'll do it but doctors are pushing me to do it as soon as possible. How much would I pay for it in USA? How much would my regular check ups at ophthalmologist cost? How much are contacts I need to change every two months?

A month or so ago, my boy had to have an emergency operation. I spent the first night with him in the room, my hb spent the second night. We paid nothing.  If I was in USA on top of all that mess I'd have to think about paying for it.




Designer said:


> When my son and DIL lived in England, she was constantly in praise of the health care system.  But then, nobody in her family needed a liver transplant, either.


 I don't get this underlined part at all



Fred Berg said:


> Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I raised my points with Designer above, and I think it is a fair position. People also come to European countries in this way; notably Munich is a favoured destination for medical tourism amongst rich Arabian and Russian clients, er, patients.


In my country (oh well, my second country) medical tourism is blooming for years. People get the same quality for much less money.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> America's gun culture is no where near as bad as the media would have you believe. Same with violence. Crime is way down across the country.... Again, if you listen to the media you would assume all Americans carry all the time and it's just not the case.
> But we have a dozen 24 hour news channels and they have to find content to fill that time so every little thing is blown out of proportion.


oh .... media... here's what I think about USA-media

I think that no other country use the "media weapon"  as America does.

No other country in the world shout that loud: "I'm proud to be/I'm blessed to be American/French/German/Australian/Canadian"

Marketing!

You people are aware how powerful media is and you're using it accordingly. In addition, you simply love to make a sensation out of everything.
Sadly, most of people will grasp only what is presented to them.

I can't tell the number of people I "converted" about my nation. My first cousin spent 10 years living in Germany. When she came back she was afraid of my father (her uncle) because of his nationality. Why? Listening to media.

I have so  much to tell about the role of media but it would get pretty nasty and it doesn't really belong in this thread.



shefjr said:


> Additionally, I feel that I am blessed to live in America.


 again, my grandson, how so?


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way.  And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?
> ...


In the UK you would get the kidney transpant for free, I only have praise for the NHS my partner has had diabetes since she was 3 this year because of it she had to have a triple heart bypass 8 weeks later she was back riding her horse


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I think that no other country use the "media weapon"  as America does.



Honestly its the worst problem we have right now. The media has more power than the government when it comes to public opinion. What make its even scarier is that the are only 6 large corporations that own ALL of the media outlets in the entire country. You think they use that power to serve their own interests?

Anyways the real issue is that a large portion of the country still takes what they see on the news as fact and never go beyond that. There was a time when the media was all about fighting for the truth and what was right but now it's just about keeping advertisers happy and boosting ratings.The good news is that the younger generation have in a way subverted the system by not watching/reading the mainstream media and now rely upon outlets like twitter & reddit for their news. This is good because it cuts out the money hungry middleman but is bad because there is no real regulation.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> I've lived and worked in Asia, Central America, Middle East, Europe, Africa and here is the USA. There are many many good places to hang your hat at the end of the day. I could have continued to lived and work in those places but I keep coming back here to California.
> 
> If I was restricted to only three descriptors for the USA they would be Freedom, Diversity and Opportunity ... for _*All*_.  Freedom of choices ... from your clothing, to sexual orientation, to education, to the arts, to pretty much everything. This country is ruled by law, now by a ruling party. Our legal system is distinct and separate from other divisions of government. Per the foundation of this country, we are all treated equally under the law regardless of ruling party or wealth or religion or ethnicity.  Those civil liberties and our choice to protect and enforce those civil liberties under rule by law ...  are what make Americans ... Americans.
> 
> ...


That's it.
I'm moving in with Gary and his wife.  
who with me ?


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I asked "what freedom" because the first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about USA certainly isn't that.
> I'm aware that once I'm in USA I wont be able to go out if I want to lead a "normal" family life. As soon as I stepped on on your territory I'll be deeply in depths.
> You're so bounded by financial bounds, mortgages, paying rates for everything and anything that I could barely feel "free" in your country because I'll be busy trying to earn enough of money so I could pay everything and sleep well.



The US is driven by marketing.  marketing everything to everyone no matter what age (with limits).  But companies seem to want people to buy something, then buy it again, and again - or the same thing just a bigger one all irrelevant if they actually need it.   This is driven by greed in a way.  

But anyways. Debt is driven by one's desires to have more.  More of anything.
If you compare housing prices in Japan or Europe to the US you might be surprised
If you compare, say gasoline prices from Japan/Europe to the US you might be surprised.
Milk & cheese in Italy vs the US . go and compare commodity prices, you might be surprised

I always say I'm a nightmare to advertisers (and I used to work in advertising) as I don't give a wazoo if you (some product) are having a SALE until the end of the month.  I'll buy something when *I* need it not because you (company) are trying to improve your monthly sales numbers.

I paid off my car.  And I'm keeping it, I'm not buying a new, bigger more shinier one.  That's saves money and lets me do other things with it (save, buy gold, buy a small carribean island off the coast of Argentina - stuff like that).

Savings rates across countries have been tracked, and the savings rates in the US are lower than other countries,  japan, etc.   But requires to purchase homes in various countries are different than the US, in Japan I believe you need a BIG chunk vs the US where you used to be able to getaway with ZERO down.

Of course Spain, Greece and other countries also go through economic, say, collapses in which they can start recovering. The US is like any other country,

Essentially what I'm saying is that  You can live with little debt in the US. 
It's all up to one person.  YOU.

In my city, there was this old guy who lived in an old decrepid looking house about 1/2 mile from me.  When he passed away and they started tearing down the house, they found jars, and jars, and jars full of gold coins hidden in the walls.  Sometimes looks are deceiving and it's all depends upon what each person does with their income.


----------



## Warhorse (Nov 17, 2014)

What country do you live in mmarie?


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Warhorse said:


> What country do you live in mmarie?


I know this doesn't sound ok, but I would like not to tell that yet


----------



## BillM (Nov 17, 2014)

This is almost a Nikon vs Canon debate. Both are nice, just list out your interests and look for an area that offers all of the things you want and move there, regardless of which country it is in. But having family in one or the other would make the decision easy for me, family is extremely important to me. Or just move to Buffalo.


----------



## Warhorse (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> Warhorse said:
> 
> 
> > What country do you live in mmarie?
> ...


To me at least, it makes it seem like a "loaded" question then, and not a very fair conversation.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> It's all up to one person.  YOU.


yeah... 

I know both countries would love me. I'm pretty cool


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

Warhorse said:


> To me at least, it makes it seem like a "loaded" question then, and not a very fair conversation.


 I can understand that


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

When you look at the statistics of savings they are pretty diverse.  The US being far down the list. ==> Gross National Savings (% of GDP) Data for All Countries
But you then have to understand the type of economies in each country/region and how those numbers are gathered from nationals vs non-nationals (which are normally excluded);  What is required for buying a house/car, etc.   

The US is driven by Credit, which  does not require a large amount of savings to buy things, which goes back to them wanting you to buy things. Credit is cheap in a way because companies want you to use their card to buy everything because most people don't pay it off and end up paying the finance charges, which ends up being a profit center for alot of companies.

For instance, you could get a Walmart credit card, which probably has an interest rate of $18% - ack.  or a regular credit card at 8%.  But to get better credit rates you need to have a better credit rating.

Credit ratings seem to be a big thing.  Oddly, it's based on CREDIT.  I paid off my car and it didn't increase my credit rating number ONE point .. NOT one point !!
But as an experiment I increased my Credit availability, which lowered my overall credit debt percentage and that increased my credit report numbers by TEN points !!.

So every countries economies are different.  If you live in San Francisco house/commodity prices are through the room.  If you live in the middle of nowhere, say in Iowa prices are much lower.  And Iowa is a long ways away from San Francisco.  Which brings up another thing the US is fairly large to most european countries.  Matter of fact  Texas itself, is fairly large ==> The Size Of Texas Compared To The Size Of Europe

So ... the basic equation ends up being you are in control of your own debt/savings.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > I've lived and worked in Asia, Central America, Middle East, Europe, Africa and here is the USA. There are many many good places to hang your hat at the end of the day. I could have continued to lived and work in those places but I keep coming back here to California.
> ...



No chance spare room is my darkroom


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

Generally speaking, the u.s. is a rat race. Canada more a trip around the ferris wheel.
I would pic Canada, if I had not ties. Course being u.s. born I  propose our freedoms (we aren't exactly a free country more a commercialized debt slave one with piles of legalities and red tape) aren't really that great despite being better than some other countries? 
There is very little freedom whenever your existence is tied to money. You may not see the leash and collar on your neck but it is there. Prison without walls, is the u.s.

For this reason you may find Canada more free. As it is less commercialized, although it isn't far off. I like Quebec personally spent a lot of time in Quebec. Very nice people.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> Generally speaking, the u.s. is a rat race. Canada more a trip around the ferris wheel.
> I would pic Canada, if I had not ties. Course being u.s. born I  propose our freedoms (we aren't exactly a free country more a commercialized debt slave one with piles of legalities and red tape) aren't really that great despite being better than some other countries?
> There is very little freedom whenever your existence is tied to money. You may not see the leash and collar on your neck but it is there. Prison without walls, is the u.s.
> 
> For this reason you may find Canada more free. As it is less commercialized, although it isn't far off. I like Quebec personally spent a lot of time in Quebec. Very nice people.


You're only in the rat race if you participate in the rat race.
I like being a spectator.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, the u.s. is a rat race. Canada more a trip around the ferris wheel.
> ...


I am tempted to go that route. ON the other hand I have these kids running around and I would like to leave them a business or SOMETHING.. And coming from a family that owned business's and assets I would hate to be the first one to die owning nothing. ON the other hand.
someone told me once that what you own, actually owns you. As I get older it seems to resonate with me more and more. Really a no win. Since my stroke I am temporarily banned from running the race anyway, least for now. Course u.s. mentality. Don't be a dead beat try or die trying. we are inexplicably programmed for competition and financial acquisition as gauge of our self worth. Perhaps a result of our founding and capitalistic roots. . Those that don't play along fall by the wayside.
I haven't been to a lot of countries, but I dare say I don't fathom another country being as grounded in competition and commercialization as the u.s. is, it is our religion. which often becomes a detriment to quality of life (as you spend all your life trying get or keep what you have and maintain it).

one would probably find statistics of much more content stress free people in Canada as we are all products of our environment and Canada doesn't quite seem to carry that same mentality (though it has basically become Americanized to much extent).


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

lol


----------



## Gary A. (Nov 17, 2014)

I think Canada and the USA are very close culturally. I think a an American can easily live in Canada as a Canadian can easily live in the USA.

The two things I'd look at is climate & geography (one thing). It seems you pretty much have a clean slate, no family or other strings attached to any particular region of either country. So think hard ... what type of climate appeals to you? Do you like seasons ... then the East Coasts (of both countries), do you like extreme seasons ... then the middle of both countries, do you like temperate climate all year-round then the West Coasts, do you like tropical then Southern Florida and Hawaii. Then you can adjust from there. As an example and typically, if you like extreme climate then the more northern you'll go ... middle of Canada. If you like temperate, the more south you go the more temperate until you hit San Diego. Do you like the desert, or lakes, mountains, seashore, rural, urban ... these are all filters to help you minimize your choices. Further refinements are jobs, price of housing, cost of living, education, et cetera. A few years ago, Ford moved its Lincoln-Mercury headquarters to Irvine, California after significant research. It concluded that while housing costs are much much higher in Orange County than in Dearborn, (smaller house for the same money), the increase in quality of life was well worth the move. So consider quality of life into your equation.    

The second thing is culture. I think Canada is much more homogeneous than the USA. I think Canada is much more socialized than the USA. The USA is more of a 'rat race' ... much more competitive than Canada. The two US coasts anchored by, New York and Los Angeles, as being extremely competitive and the cultural/economic competitiveness tapering as you travel towards the center. In the US, you don't have the safety nets or the ceilings you have in Europe. You can climb real high here ... but you can also fall real low. A lot of that climbing and and falling is totally dependant upon the individual. Americans are very individualistic. The individual is very important to society as opposed to the greater good of society. The lone cowboy, making his own way on his own mettle, is still a very vivid American concept.

Lastly, if you can afford the time and expense, after narrowing your selection to a few regions/places, go visit them. 

Gary


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

why only two choices? I hear the Russia is nice this time of year, lot of fun family activities in Syria and the mountains of Afghanistan are gorgeous.  Despite its issues Iceland could be a good place for sledding and anywhere in the uae is fairly friendly..


----------



## photoguy99 (Nov 17, 2014)

While I suspect some sarcasm in the previous, it is worth pointing out that plenty of people are living perfectly happy lives in all those places.

Probably best if you can about active war zones and avoid being an overlty oppressed minority, but other than that people can generally find a way to be happy most anywhere.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

Let's not forget that our "freedom" is less about being free to do whatever we want. Is anyone ever free of the work needed to survive? Of course not. If it's not working to make money, then it's working to grow or kill food and get clean water and chop wood to stay warm.

But the Founding Fathers were more concerned with what we were free FROM: government control over our enterprises (be they our possessions or our person.)  We ARE free to participate or not participate in "the rat race." We are also free from an overly-controlling state. Yes, there are going to be people who disagree with that, who say that government is getting more and more intrusive, and it probably is in certain ways, but it's also backing off in other ways. Whether or not you feel government is TOO intrusive depends on what you value and what you feel the government is trying to take away from you, or what it is trying to give you.

No, I am also NOT trying to get political. I'm just pointing out that regardless of your positions on taxes, guns, gay marriage, foreign policy, campaign finance, environmental policy, [insert your personal bete-noire here], the fact remains that we often forget about how much freedom we do have. How would we react if, for example, the police were allowed to just randomly come into a bar, make the owners turn off the music and turn on the lights, and the detain everyone in that bar until they checked all our papers? Or how about if the law gave us no protections over activities in our own home? What if there was no "expectation of privacy"? What if the police were allowed to track just _anyone _by monitoring you on GPS on your phone or car without probable cause? 

So when we talk about freedom, it's not just about having enough money to do whatever we want. In terms of lifestyle, savings, possessions, we are only as enslaved as we want to be.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> While I suspect some sarcasm in the previous, it is worth pointing out that plenty of people are living perfectly happy lives in all those places.
> 
> Probably best if you can about active war zones and avoid being an overlty oppressed minority, but other than that people can generally find a way to be happy most anywhere.


And being as she is a contributor to the site, we have a opportunity here to sway her into compliance with posting photos we may find outright fascinating...


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> Let's not forget that our "freedom" is less about being free to do whatever we want. Is anyone ever free of the work needed to survive? Of course not. If it's not working to make money, then it's working to grow or kill food and get clean water and chop wood to stay warm.
> 
> But the Founding Fathers were more concerned with what we were free FROM: government control over our enterprises (be they our possessions or our person.)  We ARE free to participate or not participate in "the rat race." We are also free from an overly-controlling state. Yes, there are going to be people who disagree with that, who say that government is getting more and more intrusive, and it probably is in certain ways, but it's also backing off in other ways. Whether or not you feel government is TOO intrusive depends on what you value and what you feel the government is trying to take away from you, or what it is trying to give you.
> 
> ...


someones drinking the kool aid..


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

For that, you get a big red X.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

all depends upon how much "life value" people put into money, possessions, etc and how much they want to work for it.


I like having things too
but my "life strategy" is much different than most people who like to incur debt to move ahead in life .. well, most of the time


----------



## Gary A. (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> Let's not forget that our "freedom" is less about being free to do whatever we want. Is anyone ever free of the work needed to survive? Of course not. If it's not working to make money, then it's working to grow or kill food and get clean water and chop wood to stay warm.
> 
> But the Founding Fathers were more concerned with what we were free FROM: government control over our enterprises (be they our possessions or our person.)  We ARE free to participate or not participate in "the rat race." We are also free from an overly-controlling state. Yes, there are going to be people who disagree with that, who say that government is getting more and more intrusive, and it probably is in certain ways, but it's also backing off in other ways. Whether or not you feel government is TOO intrusive depends on what you value and what you feel the government is trying to take away from you, or what it is trying to give you.
> 
> ...


Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather  by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather  by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.


and the aggresive lobbying of the NRA ...


----------



## Gary A. (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather  by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.
> ...


The fact that organizations like the NRA (single purpose political action committee) exists attest to our freedoms and tolerance.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather  by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.
> ...



True, but as much as I dislike guns and the more rabid members of the NRA, without it, who would push back? Our government was founded on checks and balances and I would argue that this helped create our adversarial culture. When the government can't check itself, then other institutions do it for them - the media, business, grassroots protests, and yes, lobby groups. And there's push-back against those groups as well. Without an adversary, who is there to stop one group or another from being too powerful?


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> For that, you get a big red X.


lol
I start from the premise of rights don't exist. you are born into a level of freedom allowed to you by others most often supported by state. Rights themselves are a levy of mans imagination as is governing law. Countries do not engage in battles of rights but sheer will and force. Hence the reason supposed international laws and rights are consistently broken and the victor not held accountable. They aren't real. The rights you speak of are undeniable as natural law, and are not rights at all. What you have declared here is that your freedom has been dissected to that of rights, were all taken from you and you settled for what they allowed you to have back. You should have no concern of one tapping your phone or entering your homestead anyway, never mind appreciating a supposed protection from it. If such a transgression arose you should have every ability to defend such transgression with your own use of force if need be. Do you? The proposing of most of what you mention you are protected from are self inflictions derived of the empowerment of state. Without such empowerment the fear would not be there. It is the same empowerment you expect to protect you from itself.
The bill of rights was a allowance of return, not a protection from. which means they were not guaranteed as they were already conceived as potentially taken. From birth your existence is that of what you make and can defend. But as it was the greatest fear of a individual is anarchy and insecurity. So they often are willing to settle in parlay over supposed rights vs. facing the unknown.


----------



## photoguy99 (Nov 17, 2014)

This is starting to devolve into an extremely thinly veiled argument about US politics. This is expressly Not Allowed in this forum.

Go find some other forum for this rot.


----------



## Fred Berg (Nov 17, 2014)

gsgary said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...




Free at the point of delivery certainly, but in the UK as well as income tax there is a national insurance contribution payable which pays towards the NHS and also funds the state pension scheme.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

Fred Berg said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > mmaria said:
> ...


Yes but it works out very very cheap


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

I just realized one benefit of living further north.

Now that the temps are in the 30's F (-1.1 C), and considering that I do not have access to a refrigerator at work, I can keep my food in the car now without worry of it spoiling.  Of course, I do have issues of it freezing.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > For that, you get a big red X.
> ...



I disagree with almost all of this, and also think you've got some contradictions in there.

But I'm also not going to go into any further, mostly because I don't feel like it, but also because it strays too far beyond the scope of this thread and has little bearing on the practical advantages or disadvantages of living here or in Canada.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


for the purpose of this thread I think I would choose Canada. More peaceable.. The conversation seems pretty well on target since freedom has been brought up numerous times in the thread and has no political leanings but a critique of what it is.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

btw, are we assuming all of Canada as "one whole"?

because Quebec has been trying to separate itself since it required French as a first language.
And that apparently is still a hot debate topic ==> The staggering price of Quebec independence - The Globe and Mail

==> Letters: Quebec&#8217;s separation will lead to a Canada-U.S. union | Financial Post

I was in automotive when this all started.  We had a plant Quebec.  All of a sudden our communications we were receiving was in french.  And you thought they were park of the UK expansion?!?!  lol


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 17, 2014)

Just a small response to the comment about US citizens being ignorant of other cultures and what people see as American nationalistic self-regard.

I think other cultures have a greater and distorted idea of US culture than we do of theirs is because, for the last half century at least, we have exported reports on our culture through entertainment.  Ideas, usually grossly distorted and often just plain wrong, about our culture have permeated as far into foreign countries as I've ever been. The fact that Hollywood and the US market is a desirable target for entertainers from any country who make it big is not our fault; it just is.

American citizens travel overseas less than others, perhaps, is due to three obvious factors - a huge diversity of culture and geography right here in the US, the enormous physical and economic barriers of the Atlantic or Pacific and the language barriers.  Yes, I agree, we would be better citizens of the world if we got out more but it just isn't going to happen that easily.

In regards national pride, I don't think it is necessarily true that Americans have greater feelings about their own country than many others but it is just expressed more openly and with a slightly different slant than others. I can speak only from knowing citizens of the UK, Western Europe and Russia well enough to talk about their national feelings and each of them have very strong positive feelings towards their homeland.

With respect to living in the US, much of what people lump under freedom is relief from artificial class and cultural barriers that exist in many countries. I think what people see in the US is a chance to make something of themselves without the false anchor of social constructs. The only other country that is both a democracy and large geographically and in population is India.
The US has very little history compared to just about anyone and it has grown by jamming in malcontents from all over the world who wanted to take a chance to make their lives better under a new set of rules. 
A country that is so heterogeneous in culture and geographically large is virtually ungovernable and almost certain to be the lumbering giant that it is.
New York City alone has about the same number of people as Sweden and more than Norway, Finland or Denmark.
Population density goes from 26000 people square miles in NYC down to 4 or 5 in Colorado.
Yes, it is totally sometimes a PITA to live here, putting up with radicals and reactionaries and morons and sometimes a silly labyrinth of laws, and I dream about living as a expatriate someplace where I can pick all the conditions that are right for me and carry with me only the things that I want.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> This is starting to devolve into an extremely thinly veiled argument about US politics. This is expressly Not Allowed in this forum.
> 
> Go find some other forum for this rot.


not at all really. Kind of like the right to not be a slave, the right for womens vote, the right for gay marriage. Rather than a political leaning one must wonder why there is a need for these rights rather than they occurring just in natural accordance on individual liberty. without permissions and script. Accept that they were taken and are given back under a different guise. Canada seems to fair better in reversing infringements in my opinion, I have not lived there on a permanent basis however. I really have doubts the u.s. is more free than Canada. We may just be perceived to be.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> btw, are we assuming all of Canada as "one whole"?
> 
> because Quebec has been trying to separate itself since it required French as a first language.
> And that apparently is still a hot debate topic ==> The staggering price of Quebec independence - The Globe and Mail
> ...


hey, I like Quebec!!


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> I just realized one benefit of living further north.
> 
> Now that the temps are in the 30's F (-1.1 C), and considering that I do not have access to a refrigerator at work, I can keep my food in the car now without worry of it spoiling.  Of course, I do have issues of it freezing.


Another good thing about those temperatures you won't get House wives of New York up there for one of their girl weekends, I hope all women in the US are not like them


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > btw, are we assuming all of Canada as "one whole"?
> ...


well Quebec has wanted it's independence from "Canada" for a long time.  They even changed their "national" language!!
They seem very adamant about it compared to Texas which just seems to like to raise their flag from time to time.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> for the purpose of this thread I think I would choose Canada. More peaceable.. The conversation seems pretty well on target since freedom has been brought up numerous times in the thread and has no political leanings but a critique of what it is.



No, it's not on target if the original question was about more practical matters of living in one of these countries. Delving too deeply into the premises on which we base our notion of freedom is no good unless you're going to translate that into, "What does that mean for my day-to-day business of getting on with my life?"


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

is she going to want to shoot in the cold weather though? I think we have a thread going on about that right now..


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

gsgary said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > I just realized one benefit of living further north.
> ...


I don't watch that junk on TV.  Most of it is over sensationalized "made for tv" "reality" shows that isn't really reality. Great for ratings and making other countries believe the US is certain ways.

I grew up thinking the UK was all Benny Hill and Monty Python, so what do I know.
it's like thinking all Americans are like the Kardashians or Miami Vice and the English are like Downtown Abbey.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> for the purpose of this thread I think I would choose Canada. More peaceable.. The conversation seems pretty well on target since freedom has been brought up numerous times in the thread and has no political leanings but a critique of what it is.



No, it's not on target if the original question was about more practical matters of living in one of these countries. Delving too deeply into the premises on which we base our notion of freedom is no good unless you're going to translate that into, "What does that mean for my day-to-day business of getting on with my life?"[/QUOTE]
okay, you are less likely to be drafted in Canada and they may ask you  if you want to go to war first. If you are gay you have a better chance of getting married. And if you are female you may have a better chance of equality without the underlying schisms.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> okay, you are less likely to be drafted in Canada and they may ask you  if you want to go to war first. If you are gay you have a better chance of getting married. And if you are female you may have a better chance of equality without the underlying schisms.



For the record, I wasn't talking about USA vs Canada, but USA/Canada vs other places in the world that do not follow the same concept of "freedom" that we do.

That example of the police entering a bar, temporarily shutting down business and not letting anyone leave until they checked papers was an experience I regularly had in Turkey.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> American citizens travel overseas less than others, perhaps, is due to three obvious factors - a huge diversity of culture and geography right here in the US, the enormous physical and economic barriers of the Atlantic or Pacific and the language barriers.



This is very true. Most Americans, if given a free trip, would love to go overseas. But in reality the cost for me to fly my family of 3 to London roundtrip is $3000. That is just airfare, factor in all the other stuff and you are looking at close to $10k for a week's vacation. On the flip side $3k stateside will get you a very nice week's stay at a resort. 

Considering that most american's are cash strapped as it is, it makes it hard to travel overseas.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> okay, you are less likely to be drafted in Canada and they may ask you  if you want to go to war first. If you are gay you have a better chance of getting married. And if you are female you may have a better chance of equality without the underlying schisms.


I think the NIxon administration ended the draft ...
so it would make getting drafted somewhat unlikely


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > astroNikon said:
> ...


I have often contemplated if my home state of maine would be better off joining Quebec. I usually don't speak of it in public however.. we are probably closer to Quebec in mentality than we are texas.


----------



## photoguy99 (Nov 17, 2014)

And for the record, of course the police in the USA can walk into a bar, shut it down, and check everyone's ID. They do it, from time to time. Underage drinking is a thing. We accept it as normal and reasonable, because, won't anyone think of the kids? People like limr literally edit it out of their reality, because it's so normal and ordinary. It's not at all like that essentially identical thing in Turkey.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> I have often contemplated if my home state of maine would be better off joining Quebec. I usually don't speak of it in public however.. we are probably closer to Quebec in mentality than we are texas.



F@CK THAT!

I'd rather become a Masshole...


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > okay, you are less likely to be drafted in Canada and they may ask you  if you want to go to war first. If you are gay you have a better chance of getting married. And if you are female you may have a better chance of equality without the underlying schisms.
> ...


I preferred when they corralled you at an impromptu airport checkpoint and searched you with their machine guns by their side .. and that was before 9/11.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> I think the NIxon administration ended the draft ...
> so it would make getting drafted somewhat unlikely


ehh. wouldn't count on that. Notice in our previous over seas fun they pulled right down through the reserves and then stuck them out with no relief. They weren't just sending actives they were yanking right down through and digging deep. And that wasn't even a real war more of a expedition in comparison to some of the countries previous military conflicts in terms of actual troops on the ground. some guy signs up for one weekend a month two weeks a year and got sent to Fallujah and romps around Al Anbar for a double tour through the holidays.. 
totally off subject, but if we ended up in a major war I have no doubt they will draft. Depending on how bad maybe recalling the previously enlisted under the five or seven and going even down to the teens. Especially if the unemployment rate is low.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

well the armed "reserves" is just that ..  reserves
If people sign up for the reserves just to think they get training one weekend a month and college tuition .. they need to rethink that ideology and read the print (not even fine print) on their paperwork.

If Canada got involved in a major war as the primary, say, the penguins attacked from the north pole, they might have a draft too.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


I think the thirty mile inland border checkpoints and the oui checks for all the non drunk drivers to get id'd are really neat.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> well the armed "reserves" is just that ..  reserves
> If people sign up for the reserves just to think they get training one weekend a month and college tuition .. they need to rethink that ideology and read the print (not even fine print) on their paperwork.
> 
> If Canada got involved in a major war as the primary, say, the penguins attacked from the north pole, they might have a draft too.


lmao at the penguins. happy I wasn't drinking it would be coming out my nose.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> the penguins attacked from the north pole, they might have a draft too.



They have remained friendly since the great Moose uprising in 1783.

It's those Canadian beavers you have to fear. Hairy and ill-tempered.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > I have often contemplated if my home state of maine would be better off joining Quebec. I usually don't speak of it in public however.. we are probably closer to Quebec in mentality than we are texas.
> ...


we already seceded from mass that is how we became a state...catch up.. geez..


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > well the armed "reserves" is just that ..  reserves
> ...


the funny thing is, after I wrote that I don't think there are any penguins at the north pole.  I think they're all at the south pole and other misc islands.  
So maybe .. polar bears ...


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > the penguins attacked from the north pole, they might have a draft too.
> ...



You said beaver.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

bribrius said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



If it were up to me 95 northbound would be barricaded.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > astroNikon said:
> ...


and he's not talking about the 4 legged variety either ...


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


they do that now and call it toll booths.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > astroNikon said:
> ...



The only sure fire way to tame angry beaver is to spank it.


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 17, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> And for the record, of course the police in the USA can walk into a bar, shut it down, and check everyone's ID. They do it, from time to time. Underage drinking is a thing. We accept it as normal and reasonable, because, won't anyone think of the kids? People like limr literally edit it out of their reality, because it's so normal and ordinary. It's not at all like that essentially identical thing in Turkey.



There are too many countries, including Turkey, where judgement from an external viewpoint, is very deceiving.  Places that look fairly decent in the media and treat tourists perfectly well but locals and particularly any kind of minorities are in for a rough ride.


----------



## gsgary (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > American citizens travel overseas less than others, perhaps, is due to three obvious factors - a huge diversity of culture and geography right here in the US, the enormous physical and economic barriers of the Atlantic or Pacific and the language barriers.
> ...


There are much better places to go than London I was there this weekend visiting the mother in law and the place it a **** hole


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

gsgary said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



I picked it because it had the most transatlantic flights.

I have no desire to visit large European cities. I'd much rather putter around the countryside.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm kind of lost in this thread now

going to find myself


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I'm kind of lost in this thread now
> 
> going to find myself



We established that Americans like to spank Canadian beaver.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

runnah said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > I'm kind of lost in this thread now
> ...


I think singling out just Canadian beavers is wrong.


----------



## robbins.photo (Nov 17, 2014)

Didereaux said:


> It is saddening to see the depth of ignorance Americans have of other countries.



Huh.. see I always thought it was sad to see over generalizations like this one posted on the internet in a capricious nod to a rather silly stereotype.  Having lived in multiple countries I can attest to the fact that very few people I met overseas had a clue as to what America was actually like either.  I'd say the misconceptions I ran into there were much greater than the misconceptions most American's I know have about the other countries I've lived in.

To the OP, the biggest advantage to the US?  We say about, not aboot.  May not seem like much but believe me after a while it will start to make a difference.


----------



## mmaria (Nov 17, 2014)

hi robbins!

haven't seen you here for a while


----------



## robbins.photo (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> hi robbins!
> 
> haven't seen you here for a while



I've been healing up from a bit of deceleration trauma caused by a motorized conveyance.

Or in plain English I was involved in a car accident recently.  Nothing terribly serious but I haven't been able to get out and shoot, or even get on the internet much.  Mostly just laying about and rediscovering just how really bad Television truly is.. I mean I remember it being pretty bad, but I swear somehow it got worse in the last few years.  Truly mindboggling that.. lol


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

Glad you're okay, robbins!

I just read this article. Seems appropriate for this thread:
Disgusted by Smoking, Outraged by a Plan to Ban Tobacco


----------



## Gary A. (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


Which was sorta my point. Apart from climate and geography there isn't a big 'practical' between living in Canada or the US. But there is a fundamental/theoretical difference between who Americans are and where Americans came from (as in how we became who we are) and who Canadians are and where Canadians came from.

Most of us don't have much of a choice in choosing that aspect of our citizenship. Maria (aka Marija) does. That aspect may or maynot be important to Maria/Marija ... I just felt it was important to point it out and let her decide significance of history and political theory/application. 

Gary


----------



## Designer (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I'm kind of lost in this thread now



Well, see, we were going to invite you to come live with us, but then we decided that we need to go visit Europe.  Maybe all of it.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I'm kind of lost in this thread now
> 
> going to find myself



I don't blame you. It got off-track.


----------



## runnah (Nov 17, 2014)

limr said:


> Glad you're okay, robbins!
> 
> I just read this article. Seems appropriate for this thread:
> Disgusted by Smoking, Outraged by a Plan to Ban Tobacco


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > hi robbins!
> ...


Yes, and we spoke of how other countries relie upon our tv to dissiminate what US culture is like.

Sorry to hear of the conveyance. Hope you get well quickly.


----------



## Rick50 (Nov 17, 2014)

Marija,
I'm wondering if what you really need is just a place to lay low from certain types being on your trail or maybe you just need a place to hang till you get on your feet again. I have a place for you. You can come stay at the Hotel California for free. It is a secluded place up in the mountains and no one would bother you.




I think it's comfy enough.




The trail in looks pretty good and you could bring your horse. 
In fact you should bring it so you can get to the watering hole.




I'll get Cisco to stop by and cook. He gives big hugs and a good smack on your cheek. 
Plus he makes the world's best Carne Asada.




Then for your anxiety I have the perfect answer. This will also help you sleep at night.




Just thought I would offer you an alternative to this fast and crazy living.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I'm kind of lost in this thread now
> 
> going to find myself


It was because the penguins were going to attack Canada and annex Quebec as their homeland.


----------



## Braineack (Nov 17, 2014)

I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.


----------



## tirediron (Nov 17, 2014)

Braineack said:


> I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.


 Just as an aside, I wonder if you could point out "America" on a map to me.  I can find the *United States* of America, as well as North, Central and South America, but no actual country called "America".


----------



## Designer (Nov 17, 2014)

Try; "Umeracuh".  I know that is on there someplace.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 17, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.
> ...


people in the u.s. have never been good at geography. I mean geez, look how the country was "found" the guy got lost...


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 17, 2014)

No one minds when we call people from the United Mexican States 'Mexicans.'
So the people from the United States of America could reasonably be called 'Americans.'


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 17, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.
> ...


You have to check the Neil Diamond edition of Maps ... it's prominently called "America"

Matter of fact, he wrote a song about it.  So it must be true, remember this was before the internet.


----------



## pgriz (Nov 17, 2014)

I have half my family in the USA, half in Canada.  I have a cottage on the border, and each weekend will have been in both countries several times.  The two countries are very similar, and yet, quite different.  Of course, both countries are very large, and regional differences are greater than the country differences.  The USA is traditionally more of a melting pot of immigrants, whereas in Canada the immigrants tend to retain their identity longer.  Medical care is excellent in both countries, but in the USA it's more easily available to those with money, whereas in Canada everyone has access, but waiting times can be a real pain (both figuratively and literally).  I have met "ugly" Americans and I have met "ugly" Canadians (and also "ugly" Quebecers).  No place has a monopoly on ignorance and bad manners.  The USA is a more militerised country than Canada and that is visible in the culture and in the number of people who are associated with the military in one way or another.  Economically, there has traditionally been more opportunity in the USA than Canada, which is not too surprising when the USA is ten times bigger then Canada by population.  The political class in either country isn't much to be proud of.  Canadians tend to be more aware of things going on outside their borders than do Americans, but then again, I've met many Americans whose awareness of world events and cultures would put many Canadians to shame.  Weatherwise, the south part of the west coast of Canada (as in Victoria and Vancouver) have very nice climate, as does the Niagara region.  Winters in Canada, from the Rockies to the East coast basically suck unless you're into winter sports.

Marija, where you live in either the USA or Canada may be a more important factor than which country you decide to go to.


----------



## limr (Nov 17, 2014)

pgriz said:


> I have half my family in the USA, half in Canada.  I have a cottage on the border, and each weekend will have been in both countries several times.  The two countries are very similar, and yet, quite different.  Of course, both countries are very large, and regional differences are greater than the country differences.  The USA is traditionally more of a melting pot of immigrants, whereas in Canada the immigrants tend to retain their identity longer.  Medical care is excellent in both countries, but in the USA it's more easily available to those with money, whereas in Canada everyone has access, but waiting times can be a real pain (both figuratively and literally).  I have met "ugly" Americans and I have met "ugly" Canadians (and also "ugly" Quebecers).  No place has a monopoly on ignorance and bad manners.  The USA is a more militerised country than Canada and that is visible in the culture and in the number of people who are associated with the military in one way or another.  Economically, there has traditionally been more opportunity in the USA than Canada, which is not too surprising when the USA is ten times bigger then Canada by population.  The political class in either country isn't much to be proud of.  Canadians tend to be more aware of things going on outside their borders than do Americans, but then again, I've met many Americans whose awareness of world events and cultures would put many Canadians to shame.  Weatherwise, the south part of the west coast of Canada (as in Victoria and Vancouver) have very nice climate, as does the Niagara region.  Winters in Canada, from the Rockies to the East coast basically suck unless you're into winter sports.
> 
> *Marija, where you live in either the USA or Canada may be a more important factor than which country you decide to go to.*



^^^ This, a thousand times. Especially the last line.


----------



## pgriz (Nov 17, 2014)

Braineack said:


> I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.



It certainly is for some people.  But not all.  "Best" is an emotional term that doesn't really get into the nuances that are there.  I am very happy to live in the country that I do live in, but I am not blind to the bad stuff that our country has done.  And  when comparing both countries (Canada and USA), we as citizens are a lot less "free" than we think we are, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## BillM (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm thinking we know a guy in India who would be willing to make some room for you


----------



## MiFleur (Nov 17, 2014)

Having lived nearly 40 years in Canada and 20 in the USA
and being French Canadian, I had the chance to see both sides of the  border.
Both countries are quite similar and many of their pros and cons have been enumerated already.
To that I would add that information in general is much better in Canada, may be in Quebec because there is 2 cultures and that offers a broader point a view.
I would tend to choose Canada because the country is vast and it is a safer place to be with less enemies.
On its side, I would say that in general Americans are more civil, maybe Canadians had to adapt to cold and long winters inside, they seem to mind their own business more.

I will not talk of the cold.... I live in New Hampshire and long for Florida where I lived for 9 years.
But is the climate enough to make someone choose another destination?

You probably have a lot to ponder!


----------



## JacaRanda (Nov 17, 2014)

You could do what I did.  Live in the U.S. and marry a Canadian 

I am partial to Southern California even though I can't afford to live here.  Prior to 911 I was fortunate to have traveled all over the states and Puerto Rico (OMG Latina women drive me crazy) I could not live there.  No way!!!  There were many places much more affordable to live, but when asked, I always answer 'San Diego, California' 40 miles south of where I live now.  Vancouver is beautiful and I could live there in a heartbeat.


----------



## Raj_55555 (Nov 18, 2014)

BillM said:


> I'm thinking we know a guy in India who would be willing to make some room for you


If 1.25 Billion people can find a place to live here, I'm sure there's enough space for the entire TPF squad for sure. All of you are more than welcome here!

Although TBH I don't have any intentions of staying in India for too long. "Freedom" is something that I miss too much here, to be fare we have a lot when compared to some of our neighbours and the conditions they live in (comparing freedom), but every once in a while something happens on the name of culture or patriotic belief that makes me despise my fellow countrymen. Who knows may be I'll move to canada someday


----------



## mmaria (Nov 18, 2014)

Raj_55555 said:


> Who knows may be I'll move to canada someday


I see you chose your next country


----------



## mmaria (Nov 18, 2014)

JacaRanda said:


> You could do what I did.  Live in the U.S. and marry a Canadian


hey... actually... not a bad idea...

Do you happen to know a successful, rich Canadian man who will marry me, find me a perfect job, give me a car or two, a house and do everything I ask him to do.... and not ask anything in return?


----------



## Raj_55555 (Nov 18, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I see you chose your next country


Well, I've always missed the snow


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 18, 2014)

mmaria said:


> Do you happen to know a successful, rich Canadian man who will marry me, find me a perfect job, give me a car or two, a house and do everything I ask him to do.... and not ask anything in return?



Reading this, I see you've become a North American woman already.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 18, 2014)

Raj_55555 said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > I see you chose your next country
> ...


well, if people on the site can mail you a camera I don't think snow is out of the question...


----------



## bribrius (Nov 18, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > Do you happen to know a successful, rich Canadian man who will marry me, find me a perfect job, give me a car or two, a house and do everything I ask him to do.... and not ask anything in return?
> ...


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 18, 2014)

limr said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > I have half my family in the USA, half in Canada.  I have a cottage on the border, and each weekend will have been in both countries several times.  The two countries are very similar, and yet, quite different.  Of course, both countries are very large, and regional differences are greater than the country differences.  The USA is traditionally more of a melting pot of immigrants, whereas in Canada the immigrants tend to retain their identity longer.  Medical care is excellent in both countries, but in the USA it's more easily available to those with money, whereas in Canada everyone has access, but waiting times can be a real pain (both figuratively and literally).  I have met "ugly" Americans and I have met "ugly" Canadians (and also "ugly" Quebecers).  No place has a monopoly on ignorance and bad manners.  The USA is a more militerised country than Canada and that is visible in the culture and in the number of people who are associated with the military in one way or another.  Economically, there has traditionally been more opportunity in the USA than Canada, which is not too surprising when the USA is ten times bigger then Canada by population.  The political class in either country isn't much to be proud of.  Canadians tend to be more aware of things going on outside their borders than do Americans, but then again, I've met many Americans whose awareness of world events and cultures would put many Canadians to shame.  Weatherwise, the south part of the west coast of Canada (as in Victoria and Vancouver) have very nice climate, as does the Niagara region.  Winters in Canada, from the Rockies to the East coast basically suck unless you're into winter sports.
> ...


The last TWO lines ...lol


----------



## runnah (Nov 18, 2014)

Canada right now:






US right now:


----------



## pgriz (Nov 18, 2014)

@ astroNikon, runnah:  yeah, but but NOTHING makes a cup of hot chocolate taste so good as having come back in after freezing your butt off!  Plus, we are extremely appreciative of when the nice weather returns.


----------



## KenC (Nov 18, 2014)

Eleven pages of this already?!  Shouldn't we be getting back to Mac vs.PC or Canon vs. Nikon?  I'm sure Canada vs. US will be revisited periodically anyhow.


----------



## Designer (Nov 18, 2014)

I think this thread is just getting started!


----------



## Designer (Nov 18, 2014)

Without any "postwhoreing".


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm waiting for the first person who jumps in with a picture to capture some attention.


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 18, 2014)

ooops, missed Runnah


----------



## tirediron (Nov 18, 2014)

Raj_55555 said:


> BillM said:
> 
> 
> > I'm thinking we know a guy in India who would be willing to make some room for you
> ...


I always thought you were a man of undoubted taste and refined judgement in addition to your photographic skills.


----------



## bribrius (Nov 18, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> I'm waiting for the first person who jumps in with a picture to capture some attention.


ehh. we need more photos anyway it is a photography site!!!


----------



## shefjr (Nov 18, 2014)

mmaria said:


> shefjr said:
> 
> 
> > Additionally, I feel that I am blessed to live in America.
> ...



All I meant gramps is that I'm blessed to have been born here. I could have been born in a land where I was locked into a social status at birth and is unchangable or where my wife, mom, or sisters could be beaten, stoned, or have acid thrown on their faces. So I consider myself blessed.


----------



## Designer (Nov 18, 2014)

Snow that you can't ski on is just annoying.


----------



## waday (Nov 18, 2014)

How come no one has yelled 'Murica, yet?


----------



## limr (Nov 18, 2014)

waday said:


> How come no one has yelled 'Murica, yet?



I believe Brainy has already done that:



Braineack said:


> I cant believe this thread is still ongoing.  America is the best country in the world. Defintive fact. End of debate.


----------



## waday (Nov 18, 2014)

limr said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > How come no one has yelled 'Murica, yet?
> ...


Oh, I meant actually used the word "Murica"...


----------



## waday (Nov 18, 2014)

Like this:


----------



## limr (Nov 18, 2014)

Ah yes, I don't think anyone has done that yet. Though I suspect a few were thinking it


----------



## Designer (Nov 18, 2014)

waday said:


> How come no one has yelled 'Murica, yet?


Read post #139  Living in USA/Canada pros and cons? | Page 10 | Photography Forum


----------



## waday (Nov 18, 2014)

Designer said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > How come no one has yelled 'Murica, yet?
> ...


Ah.. I must have missed that...


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm glad I recently bought new tires for my car ... 
schools on the west part of michigan were closed today due to too much snow ==> West Michigan schools close in winter storm

Upper Michigan got 3 feet in one day ==> As Detroit chills, storm dumps 3 feet of snow in U.P.

i'm ready for Florida which was 82 F (27.7 C) today in Miami .. or that warm part of Canada ... which is where ?


----------



## bribrius (Nov 18, 2014)

not ready for accumulating snow yet. just ... NO.


----------



## Raj_55555 (Nov 18, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Raj_55555 said:
> 
> 
> > ... to be fare we have a lot when compared to...
> ...


Thanks for making my day John, can I put this in my resume? 
On the downside, I do wish I could spell "fair" properly!


----------



## tirediron (Nov 19, 2014)

Raj_55555 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Raj_55555 said:
> ...


Sure!


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 19, 2014)

bribrius said:


> not ready for accumulating snow yet. just ... NO.


me either, looks like we'll be getting 1 to 3 inches of the stuff ==> Snow on the way Wednesday | Weather  - Home

guess I should make sure my snowblower works

you don't need snowblowers in Florida.  Just suntan lotion.


----------



## Big Mike (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm a born & raised Canadian, but I have family in the USA and have travelled there many times.  

Compared to most other parts of the world, Canada and the US are quite similar.  
As someone mentioned, a decision that is just as big as which country, would be where (in either county) you want to live.
Many people have mentioned climate, and sure, Canada is more northern and thus colder on average, but something like 90% of Canadians live within 100km of the southern border, and if you look at the southern tip of Canada (in the province of Ontario), it's as far south as Northern California.  There are places in Canada where it gets very hot & humid in the summer, and most people have to rely on air conditioning.  Just like there are places, in the USA that have long cold winters etc.  

Another thing to consider, which I don't think I've seen mentioned, is the local economy of the area.  For example, the Eastern Maritime provinces of Canada are very different from the rest of Canada.  Great scenery, usually great 'salt of the Earth' people, but jobs have typically been harder to come by.  But that also means that it can be a lot more affordable to live there (provided to already have money or can find a way to make a living).  

Compare that to the area that I'm in, Mid-North Alberta.  Here the economy is driven by the oil & gas industry.  If you wanted to move to a place where you have a good chance of finding a good job, this would probably be it.  The economy has been booming for the past decade and besides a few blips, has been very strong for 20-40 years.  

That doesn't equate to a perfect place to live though.  The cost of living is pretty high.  Not as much as living in a very large city, but still high.  The cities have grown too fast and become very spread out.  There aren't enough schools or hospitals to properly service all these new areas and thongs of people moving in.  

There are vast expanses of farm land in both the US and Canada.  There are plenty of places to live that have a 'small town' experience.  One difference between small towns in the US and Canada (from what I can tell), is how isolated they might be.  In the US, no matter where you are, you can travel in almost any direction and find other similar towns, larger cities etc.  
While up in Canada, especially a little more north like I am, when you start going north, the towns get smaller and smaller and eventually stop.  

So basically, you could move to many different places in the USA or Canada, and something as simple as your ability to find a good job (and a lower cost of living), could be the factor that makes or breaks you.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 19, 2014)

Big Mike said:


> ...  and if you look at the southern tip of Canada (in the province of Ontario), it's as far south as Northern California.



What country that shares borders of the US, and not including Mexico, is directly South of US territory?

Yup, you guessed it.  Canada.
At least that one little point in southern Ontario.  It's just a short 10 mile drive South for me.
But I wouldn't compare our weather to northern California especially in the winter.

In Eureka, California .. it's raining and 58
here  in Detroit / Windsor Canada it's 23 (feels like 8) F (-5 C feels like -13.4C ) and snowing 1-3 inches (2.5 cm to 7.6cm)

California is warmed by the ocean.
Michigan gets the cold air coming south from Canada.

If you happen to live in Portugal, then northern-ocean side California may be more similar to you.
If you live in switzerland, then we have the Rockies and Appalachian mountains, but no replacement for the Alps.

It all depends upon what you are looking for in the Economy, housing (metro / urban / country) cost of living, culturally, and everything else.


----------



## The_Traveler (Nov 19, 2014)

I often think about where I would relocate to if I was completely free from ties and I have narrowed down my first plausible perhaps-home - Chiang Mai in Northern Thailand.
Decent climate, three English language book stores, two universities, one medical school, good number of expatriates, camera club,  fair tourist trade so English has good penetration, great cost of living (for me) and reasonably close to the real country and convenient to both Myanmar and Laos.

For example 3 bedroom house furnished rental $670/month - this is upper middle class.  
For $1800/month one can get mansion.
Retirement visa requirements are trivial.
Entrees at decent restaurants are $3-4 so $10 for a big restaurant meal.
In 2012, a couple wrote a blog page on the cost of living luxuriously in Chiang Mai - $1372  for 2 people per month  

looks good to me.


----------



## limr (Nov 19, 2014)

I was hearing about all the snow Western NY is getting. It's always a little strange to me to remember how big NY actually is. I hear "New York" and I think I should also be affected, but downstate is a long way from that weather y'all are getting. It's cold today but bright and sunny.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 19, 2014)

shefjr said:


> So we set a snowfall record in the US of 76inches in a 24 hour period. Anyone want some snow?


send it to Canada


----------



## limr (Nov 19, 2014)

Wow. That's a lot of snow.

As long as there's a way to stay warm and have hot food and coffee, then I really don't mind the world shutting down because of the snow. It's an enforced pause that I think everyone should take advantage of. We always complain about how busy we all are, and yet when we have a chance to stay home, catch our breath, and just _be_ for a little while, then we complain about not being able to do anything.

For those who have health conditions or don't have the means to stay warm and fed, then they are obviously devastating.


----------



## shefjr (Nov 19, 2014)

limr said:


> Wow. That's a lot of snow.
> 
> As long as there's a way to stay warm and have hot food and coffee, then I really don't mind the world shutting down because of the snow. It's an enforced pause that I think everyone should take advantage of. We always complain about how busy we all are, and yet when we have a chance to stay home, catch our breath, and just _be_ for a little while, then we complain about not being able to do anything.
> 
> For those who have health conditions or don't have the means to stay warm and fed, then they are obviously devastating.


I couldn't agree with you more! We want for nothing here. Plenty of food, coffee, and drinks. It's nice to be stuck at home (not that I am) and it's a great excuse to not have to do anything. Unplugging from everything outside of family.


----------



## pgriz (Nov 19, 2014)

Ah.  Lake-effect snow.  I could be wrong, but I think Watertown gets it pretty bad most years.  I remember coming home one year after a business trip to Illinois, Iowa, and Ohio, and the road back lead through Watertown.  I think they were organizing convoys of cars/trucks with a set of plows in front of each convoy.  If the convoy was too long, the guys at the back were getting more and more stuff to drive through.

But what is happening in Buffalo right now is brutal.  Getting a whole winter's amount of snow in a couple of days.  Ugh.


----------



## JacaRanda (Nov 19, 2014)

mmaria said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > You could do what I did.  Live in the U.S. and marry a Canadian
> ...



Get in line!  

The population in the state of California is more than the entire country of Canada.  Maybe the percentages of finding that man is better if you move to California.   Of course the chance of finding a no good snake in the grass increases also.


----------



## pgriz (Nov 19, 2014)

Soooo..... what are the chances of a baby boom in roughly nine months???


----------



## shefjr (Nov 19, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Soooo..... what are the chances of a baby boom in roughly nine months???


I ran to the store today and they were all out of adult beverages so I'd have to guess that the month of August will have an increase in babies in the area. Lol! Not here though we have a 7 month old and aren't gonna start another one that soon.


----------



## limr (Nov 19, 2014)

shefjr said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Soooo..... what are the chances of a baby boom in roughly nine months???
> ...



Already sold out, eh? So that baby boom is going to be even bigger!


----------



## limr (Nov 19, 2014)

Hey, gotta stay warm somehow!!


----------



## Braineack (Nov 19, 2014)

limr said:


> Hey, gotta stay warm somehow!!


cats.


----------



## astroNikon (Nov 19, 2014)

I saw on the news that all the snow was a strip south of Buffalo.  In certain parts of downtown they've just got a sprinkle of snow.  Interesting seeing those clouds rolling in as a stream.


----------

