# The Staggering Collapse of the Camera Market



## bratkinson

Came across this article a few minutes ago.  Nothing really new to say, but a rehash of what is already obvious.
The staggering collapse of the camera market


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## robbins.photo

Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.

Yawn.


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## tirediron

Blah, blah, blah....


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## astroNikon

whilst talking about DSLRs they throw in the doom and gloom statistics of Point & Shoots a few times 
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"The camera market is already reeling from a six-year dive in demand for consumer point-and-shoots as smartphone cameras rapidly improved."
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"Sales for compact point and shoot cameras have collapsed to an estimated 13 million in 2016 from a peak of 121.5 million in 2010"
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"There’s a big perception that this (cell phones) is a step above a point and shoot,”
..

yeah, I agree.  P&S cameras are close to death.  I gave mine up years ago for my cell phone.


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## table1349




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## robbins.photo

gryphonslair99 said:


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Ah crap.  That's what I get for relying on that little chicken to warn us all....


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## astroNikon

robbins.photo said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
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> Ah crap.  That's what I get for relying on that little chicken to warn us all....
Click to expand...

but the chicken was right ?!?!


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## Solarflare

To repeat what has been said elsewhere, whats going on:
- Smartphones are killing compact cameras.
- Global recession affects the photography market, leading to reduced demand for system cameras as well.
- DSLRs have reached a certain level from which there is not much more progress possible; there is simply not that much need to upgrade if you have for example a Nikon D700 (2008) or a Canon 5D Mark II (2008) and are not interested in gimmicks like video recording.
- Mirrorless probably just did the same with the release of the Fuji X-T2. There isnt much left to improve in that camera, though Fuji obviously has still a lot to do in the lens department of that system.


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## Advanced Photo

bratkinson said:


> Came across this article a few minutes ago.  Nothing really new to say, but a rehash of what is already obvious.
> The staggering collapse of the camera market


As you say, nothing new about this but the Apple 7? Really, that phone is still trying to catch up to a 2 year old Samsung Galaxy s5 and the HTC one m8.
It does outdo those other phones on price though, you can get the 12mpix Apple for 3 times the cost of the 16mpix Samsung. lol


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## Rick50

I am reluctant to upgrade my 5D MkIII. I'm happy with it just as is.


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## astroNikon

I'm hoping Nikons new mirrorless can use the same lenses as the DSLR uses.   Hopefully before the iPhone 8 renders all cameras obsolete.


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## table1349

Dude, you didn't get the memo?  The iPhone 7s will render all other cameras obsolete.  The iPhone 8 brings us world peace and the 8s solves world hunger.


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## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> ... the 8s solves world hunger.


How's that?  Does it include an invite for everyone who buys it to Gary A.s for supper?


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## 407370

The thing I dont get is why camera manufacturers dont learn from camera - phones. 

Think of a DSLR with built in Operating system that supports 4G / Wi-Fi / 500px / Instagram / snapchat / facebook etc. 

Why not??


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## astroNikon

407370 said:


> The thing I dont get is why camera manufacturers dont learn from camera - phones.
> 
> Think of a DSLR with built in Operating system that supports 4G / Wi-Fi / 500px / Instagram / snapchat / facebook etc.
> 
> Why not??


I forgot who it was that had a camera (more P&S type) that had the android OS and Wifi.  I can't recall if it had cell capability.

But you would think SONY, who has tried making cell phones, would integrate it.

For me that's the next big step in removing that extra step to get from camera, to cell phone to social media.


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## Overread

I think many underestimate the costs of higher end processors to achieve all those fancy in-camera features whilst at the same time also being able to dump/hold all that info to take photos in an instant and process those photos whilst not slowing up other functions. Sure we could likely produce such a machine but its production cost would likely go up significantly (don't forget mobile phones are oft sold on contract as a loss with the profit being in how much you pay for your account/phone use) with little to no gain for actual photography. 

Alongside that more features (esp things like wi-fi) drain on the battery so again we see a desire to hold back and wait for battery tech. 


It will likely happen; probably in entry level at first and we are already seeing built in wi-fi as a feature now. However it will not be fast in happening


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## astroNikon

ah yes, here's was Samsung's attempt at it a few years ago
Samsung Galaxy Camera 3G & Wi-Fi 4.8" | 16.3MP 21x Zoom

neat camera with Wifi back then.  But it never caught on for some reason.

My d750 has Wifi.  But there is really no interface to manipulate an image.  I can see how it could use the Cell access from my cell phone rather than download, edit then upload on the cell.  But they would have to improve the LCD, and improve the editing buttons(?) on the camera too.


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## Overread

Honestly I'd rather have wi-fi and no in-camera editing magics and then if I wanted to edit have some fancy transfer to tablet feature through the wi-fi. Because a DSLR screen is always going to be small no matter how high its resolution. Even with good eyesight you can't do more than something as simple as global black and white - far better to have shots ported to a tablet app that can read and process RAWs and JPEGs and then use that to do any quick editing.


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## chuasam

robbins.photo said:


> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.


You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.


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## robbins.photo

Overread said:


> I think many underestimate the costs of higher end processors to achieve all those fancy in-camera features whilst at the same time also being able to dump/hold all that info to take photos in an instant and process those photos whilst not slowing up other functions. Sure we could likely produce such a machine but its production cost would likely go up significantly (don't forget mobile phones are oft sold on contract as a loss with the profit being in how much you pay for your account/phone use) with little to no gain for actual photography.
> 
> Alongside that more features (esp things like wi-fi) drain on the battery so again we see a desire to hold back and wait for battery tech.
> 
> 
> It will likely happen; probably in entry level at first and we are already seeing built in wi-fi as a feature now. However it will not be fast in happening



Honestly I don't see any of that being useful in regards to a DSLR.  The whole point, for me at least, is that I want high quality, finished images.  Which means before I share anything anywhere, I am going to want to process them properly in a full blown application like light room or photoshop.  I'm going to want to crop them and adjust them for proper composition, white balance, etc, etc, etc... 

Once there on my computer, I can edit them and share them just fine.  I don't really need all that battery wasting crap built into my camera, I'd never use it anyway.


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## robbins.photo

chuasam said:


> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.



No, there not.

If you had a business that was making 10 billion last year, and it's only making 5 billion this year, that doesn't mean your business is a failure.

It just means your not doing as well this year as you were last year.  Markets fluctuate, things change.  But you know what, I'd be just fine if I was in charge of a company that was still making 5 billion in a down economy.  

Nikon, Canon, etc... are still making money from selling DSLRs.  Lots of money.  That's the point that everyone seems to completely miss when crap like this is posted.


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## table1349

chuasam said:


> robbins.photo said:
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> 
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
Click to expand...

Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.


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## chuasam

gryphonslair99 said:


> chuasam said:
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> robbins.photo said:
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
Click to expand...

Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $


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## table1349

chuasam said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
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> chuasam said:
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> robbins.photo said:
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
Click to expand...

You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.


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## crzyfotopeeple

personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles


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## table1349

crzyfotopeeple said:


> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles


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## crzyfotopeeple

gryphonslair99 said:


> crzyfotopeeple said:
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> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles
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> View attachment 128389
Click to expand...

Go ahead and laugh it up. Can't hold back change old timer.


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## table1349

crzyfotopeeple said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
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> crzyfotopeeple said:
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> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles
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> View attachment 128389
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Go ahead and laugh it up. Can't hold back change old timer.
Click to expand...

You have a far to simplistic view of photography.  How many weddings have you done with your drone.  How many corporate shoots, product shoots, portraits shoots?  This isn't change, it's a new toy for those like you and a piece of work equipment for the business in the service industries.  It won't replace the typical forms of photography.


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## crzyfotopeeple

gryphonslair99 said:


> crzyfotopeeple said:
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> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles
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> View attachment 128389
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Go ahead and laugh it up. Can't hold back change old timer.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> You have a far to simplistic view of photography.  How many weddings have you done with your drone.  How many corporate shoots, product shoots, portraits shoots?  This isn't change, it's a new toy for those like you and a piece of work equipment for the business in the service industries.  It won't replace the typical forms of photography.
Click to expand...

Same argument i heard when digital cameras started to come out.


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## table1349

crzyfotopeeple said:


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> crzyfotopeeple said:
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> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles
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> View attachment 128389
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> Click to expand...
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> Go ahead and laugh it up. Can't hold back change old timer.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> You have a far to simplistic view of photography.  How many weddings have you done with your drone.  How many corporate shoots, product shoots, portraits shoots?  This isn't change, it's a new toy for those like you and a piece of work equipment for the business in the service industries.  It won't replace the typical forms of photography.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same argument i heard when digital cameras started to come out.
Click to expand...


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## robbins.photo

chuasam said:


> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $



Half of a crap ton is still a whole heck of a lot.  Markets change.  Just because your making 5 billion now when you were making 10 billion a few years ago?  No reason at all to close your doors.  That would just be stupid.

As to whether or not your making a billion yen or a billion dollars, again, completely immaterial.  I'd be happy as a clam with a billion yen.  It wouldn't bother me a bit that at the current exchange rate that works out to a piddly $9,657,220.  

Personally if I were making that kind of profit I'd be turning handsprings.. not picking nits and talking about closing down my business.


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## chuasam

gryphonslair99 said:


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> robbins.photo said:
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
Click to expand...


You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.


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## astroNikon

gryphonslair99 said:


> crzyfotopeeple said:
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> gryphonslair99 said:
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> personal drone photography is where its at. follows with camera attached. can get some great angles
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> View attachment 128389
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Go ahead and laugh it up. Can't hold back change old timer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have a far to simplistic view of photography.  How many weddings have you done with your drone.  How many corporate shoots, product shoots, portraits shoots?  This isn't change, it's a new toy for those like you and a piece of work equipment for the business in the service industries.  It won't replace the typical forms of photography.
Click to expand...

Drones are great.  But I don't think they allow them inside churches yet ...
and hope you have a good captain flying it


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## table1349

Not to mention that everyone owns a camera these days.  Think of all the fun when you get a crowd together and each of them have a drone flying around.  






Watching the destruction of so many drones would be humorous.  Think I will keep my DSLR to record it all.


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## table1349

chuasam said:


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> robbins.photo said:
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
Click to expand...

And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.


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## robbins.photo

gryphonslair99 said:


> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.



I guess what cracks me up the most is that the talking heads keep trying to pretend this is only happening over at Nikon - it's not.  It's happening to all companies that manufacture luxury items.

Global economy is down right now.. so yes, people are spending less on incidentals and concentrating more on basics.  That's across the board.  It isn't isolated to only one manufacturer of DSLR cameras.

It's happened before, it will happen again.  These things are usually cyclic.


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## astroNikon

go to google,
type
Canon camera layoffs
Olympus camera layoffs
nikon camera layoffs
Sony camera layoffs
Gopro camera layoffs
Ricoh camera layoffs
Fuji camera layoffs
... Samsung .. well, they just exited the entire camera market


I don't think it's been limited to only Nikon over the last few years.


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## table1349

Go to google and type in any manufacturer layoffs.  Today's generation of photographers love automation.  

So do manufacturers.  You don't have to pay a machine, it never calls in sick, and never has marital, girlfriend, boyfriend, or other family troubles.  Turn it on, it does its job until you turn it off and it never unionizes for shorter work days or weeks.


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## Scatterbrained

The thing that seems to go ignored in all this doom and gloom talk is that the camera makers are back to selling ILCs at about the same rate they were before the digital revolution.   They ramped up massively for the "digital revolution"; much of which was on the backs of digital P&S sales.  Now that those are gone they are having to fall back to the enthusiast market, which will require continued downsizing for a while.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are all on the brink of failure though.   Meanwhile, Canon, Nikon and Pentax are now having to fight with a resurgent Sony, who is cutting into all their sales.


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## chuasam

Pentax isn't even in the fight.  They're just struggling just to survive. So many camera stores have gone under.


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## chuasam

gryphonslair99 said:


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> robbins.photo said:
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> Yes yes, doom, gloom.. DSLR's are dead despite all the billions that are still being made by the companies that make them.
> 
> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.
Click to expand...

How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000


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## robbins.photo

chuasam said:


> How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000



I'm sure that the folks that kept there jobs are probably grateful that the company decided to just lay off a few, rather than close down completely, despite multiple suggestions from folks like Hogan and CGW that they should.

I'm sure the folks working at Lamborghini, or Louis Vuitton probably feel the same way.  Maybe we can get cgw to start giving those folks some of this stellar business advice, since obviously Nikon doesn't seem to need his help.


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## Scatterbrained

chuasam said:


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> You mean Billions LOST. The camera companies are bleeding money.
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> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000
Click to expand...

Does it matter?  What should they do, maintain excess labor until the entire company collapses?  Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts.


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## astroNikon

Scatterbrained said:


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> Nikon made $421,989,443.00 last year. I should bleed so good.
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> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does it matter?  What should they do, maintain excess labor until the entire company collapses?  Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts.
Click to expand...

"Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts." .. to the detriment of the employees.

If you just search Layoffs, or think about it.
Oil industry
Financial industry
europe seems to be just starting a larger downturn   ... Major companies announce job cuts across Europe - World Socialist Web Site
don't worry. I'm sure the ECB will continue to buy bonds/debt from the unlimited funds they seem to have.

local automotive seems to be doing good so far though.  Many adding jobs.


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## chuasam

astroNikon said:


> Scatterbrained said:
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> Which is a mere half of what they made 11 years ago. And it's ¥ not $
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> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does it matter?  What should they do, maintain excess labor until the entire company collapses?  Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts." .. to the detriment of the employees.
> 
> If you just search Layoffs, or think about it.
> Oil industry
> Financial industry
> europe seems to be just starting a larger downturn   ... Major companies announce job cuts across Europe - World Socialist Web Site
> don't worry. I'm sure the ECB will continue to buy bonds/debt from the unlimited funds they seem to have.
> 
> local automotive seems to be doing good so far though.  Many adding jobs.
Click to expand...

actually, the automotive industry has been shrinking for a while. Many millennials are not driving and buying cars.
Camera retail has been hurting badly. From 2010 till now, the industry has been shrinking at a rate of about 30% per year.


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## Scatterbrained

astroNikon said:


> ....... .. to the detriment of the employees.
> 
> .........


What's your point?


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## table1349

chuasam said:


> astroNikon said:
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> Scatterbrained said:
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> chuasam said:
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> gryphonslair99 said:
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> chuasam said:
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> gryphonslair99 said:
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> 
> You use the yen do you?  That is in Dollars.  Read the Nikon financial report and convert the listed 43.4 billion yen in corporate earnings into dollars.  Their net sales was 857 billion yen or $8,334,174,367 dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're looking at the whole of Nikon and not just their camera division.  Nikon has been doing massive layoffs and cost cutting to even make that income.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the 1000 jobs that were cut were across the whole of Nikon.  Thats 1,000 out of over 30,000 employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many were in the camera division? I'm sure that's a consolation to the families of the 1000
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does it matter?  What should they do, maintain excess labor until the entire company collapses?  Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Companies need to be able to expand and contract as the market expands and contracts." .. to the detriment of the employees.
> 
> If you just search Layoffs, or think about it.
> Oil industry
> Financial industry
> europe seems to be just starting a larger downturn   ... Major companies announce job cuts across Europe - World Socialist Web Site
> don't worry. I'm sure the ECB will continue to buy bonds/debt from the unlimited funds they seem to have.
> 
> local automotive seems to be doing good so far though.  Many adding jobs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> actually, the automotive industry has been shrinking for a while. Many millennials are not driving and buying cars.
> Camera retail has been hurting badly. From 2010 till now, the industry has been shrinking at a rate of about 30% per year.
Click to expand...


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## astroNikon

ok .... I'm heavily in the auto market here.  I see the current profits, and hiring plans as they are taking away people from other industries around here.
United States Total Vehicle Sales | 1993-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar

China, as you know has expanded like crazy though is currently retracting a bit.
China Total Vehicle Sales | 1997-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

global ... 
Global car sales 1990-2016 | Forecast

Russia on the other hand ....

Having been in the Tier 1 and Tier 2 industry back in 2006 onwards (and OEM before that) I watch for when that arena starts shrinking and tightening.  It was quite devastated from 2005 through 2010, but seems to be doing well.  Further automation and Tier 1 packaging further pushes down employee counts.

"Many millennials are not driving and buying cars." --> on the other hand --> Millennials Are Buying Cars
--> Everything we thought about millennials not buying cars was wrong
though --> Millennials don't want cars, but Generation Z does


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## table1349

astroNikon said:


> ok .... I'm heavily in the auto market here.  I see the current profits, and hiring plans as they are taking away people from other industries around here.
> United States Total Vehicle Sales | 1993-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar
> 
> China, as you know has expanded like crazy though is currently retracting a bit.
> China Total Vehicle Sales | 1997-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast
> 
> global ...
> Global car sales 1990-2016 | Forecast
> 
> Russia on the other hand ....
> 
> Having been in the Tier 1 and Tier 2 industry back in 2006 onwards (and OEM before that) I watch for when that arena starts shrinking and tightening.  It was quite devastated from 2005 through 2010, but seems to be doing well.  Further automation and Tier 1 packaging further pushes down employee counts.
> 
> "Many millennials are not driving and buying cars." --> on the other hand --> Millennials Are Buying Cars
> --> Everything we thought about millennials not buying cars was wrong
> though --> Millennials don't want cars, but Generation Z does


Please don't confuse him with facts.  We all know that there is only a limited amount of bandwidth and once it is gone the whole internet will implode.  A millennial told me so on the internet so it must be true.  Gotta go now, I'm meeting a French model for lunch.


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## astroNikon

Scatterbrained said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....... .. to the detriment of the employees.
> 
> .........
> 
> 
> 
> What's your point?
Click to expand...

Employees lose their jobs .. aka unemployment whether temporary / contract or full time.
Mass Loss of jobs usually also coincide with a reduction in local economic spending.  As local economies can be affected by large employers can also cause waves in that local economy, which can create job migration.

Just look at isolated industries in isolated locales for those effects ==> From boom to bust, big changes in ND oil
Or even restaurants that surround a 3 shift automotive plant.


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## astroNikon

gryphonslair99 said:


> Please don't confuse him with facts.  We all know that there is only a limited amount of bandwidth and once it is gone the whole internet will implode.  A millennial told me so on the internet so it must be true.  Gotta go now, I'm meeting a French model for lunch.


ookie dookie

just that Business Economics education and stuff coming out ...
Al Gore just called too .. so I have to lay off the internet for a while.


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## robbins.photo

astroNikon said:


> just that Business Economics education and stuff coming out ...
> Al Gore just called too .. so I have to lay off the internet for a while.



Nice that somebody is keeping track of your carbon footprint.  You really should send Al a nice thank you note.  Or maybe a fruit basket...


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## astroNikon

robbins.photo said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> just that Business Economics education and stuff coming out ...
> Al Gore just called too .. so I have to lay off the internet for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice that somebody is keeping track of your carbon footprint.  You really should send Al a nice thank you note.  Or maybe a fruit basket...
Click to expand...

He told me if I contact him again he'll have me arrested.
I'll just contact him with your contact information instead and tell him he's a fruit basket.


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## robbins.photo

astroNikon said:


> He told me if I contact him again he'll have me arrested.
> I'll just contact him with your contact information instead and tell him he's a fruit basket.



Arrested?  Really?

Wow.. he must like you.  He told me if I tried contacting him again he'd have me killed.  That Al.. he's such a zany madcap really...


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## The Barbarian

Hmmm... Ricoh/Pentax increased camera sales about 50% last year.    O.K., nearly 5% of the industry total to a little over 7%, but good for them.


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## table1349

astroNikon said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't confuse him with facts.  We all know that there is only a limited amount of bandwidth and once it is gone the whole internet will implode.  A millennial told me so on the internet so it must be true.  Gotta go now, I'm meeting a French model for lunch.
> 
> 
> 
> ookie dookie
> 
> just that Business Economics education and stuff coming out ...
> Al Gore just called too .. so I have to lay off the internet for a while.
Click to expand...


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## thereyougo!

chuasam said:


> Pentax isn't even in the fight.  They're just struggling just to survive. So many camera stores have gone under.



You really should consider getting one of those "The End is Nigh" sandwich boards.


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## TCampbell

407370 said:


> The thing I dont get is why camera manufacturers dont learn from camera - phones.
> 
> Think of a DSLR with built in Operating system that supports 4G / Wi-Fi / 500px / Instagram / snapchat / facebook etc.
> 
> Why not??



I'm not entirely certain I'd want such features in a camera.  If you have a smartphone, you can take the photo, edit the photo, and then post the photo.  But if you have a camera and you're serious about the quality of your photos (and if you have a DSLR there's a good chance you are) then you probably want to tweak the image before sharing it rather than have the camera just upload it "as is".

So you could add photo editing apps to the camera... but this reminds me of the time when car manufacturers realized people wanted phones in their cars... so they started offering integrated cellphones for the cars.  The "problem" was the manufacturer just offered you ONE phone model.  Mobile phones are like fashion... people don't want to be told what one thing to wear, they want to pick it out based on their own needs & taste.    The same would be true of image editing apps... I don't want a manufacturer thrusting their idea of an image editing app on me and telling me that if I use their camera then I have to use their app because it's all integrated to shoot, edit, and post.

What I really want is something that will let me "shoot", and easily transfer the image to a device of my choosing... edit it there (and honestly... I am NOT going to edit photos a 3" screen on the back of a camera), and then upload it to possibly multiple locations.

I really like Apple's model in that I can add information (such as a photo) from any device and within moments it shows up on every other device.   

But there is a catch...  most carriers don't truly allow unlimited and unimpeded data volume.  Even "unlimited" plans tend to hit the brakes and slow down your data speeds after you exceed some threshold (even if they don't charge you more) and most plans still are not unlimited and have overage charges.  That means when I'm "out" shooting, I really don't want the camera to just start syncing everything. I'd rather wait for it to be on a WiFi connection to do that.

Apple does have a slick protocol build into their devices that allows two devices that are both trusted to auto-detect each other via Bluetooth (bluetooth is very low power, but also very slow) and then use Bluetooth to negotiate a peer-to-peer WiFi connection which can then do a high-speed transfer.  That way you don't have to leave the WiFi connect all the time (wasting power) but it's painless to establish.  Usually it "just works".  Now THAT would be something I'd be interested in because most WiFi cameras are still cumbersome to use when it comes to establishing the WiFi connection.

Keeping with openness (something most camera makers are definitely NOT good at doing)... it'd be great if the camera was an IoT device with published REST-based APIs so that it wouldn't really matter what "other" apps you want to use... anybody could code against the published API.


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## table1349

I want my camera to be able to brew me a good cup of coffee and do my taxes for me.  Now those would be useable features.


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## ClickAddict

The Barbarian said:


> Hmmm... Ricoh/Pentax increased camera sales about 50% last year.    O.K., nearly 5% of the industry total to a little over 7%, but good for them.




Actually gaining in Market share does not necessarily mean they increased their sales.

Year 1.  
Total market sales is  $1000
Company A sells 100$ worth (so 10% of market)
Company B sells 200$ worth (20%)
Company C sells 200$ worth  (20%)
Company D sells 500$ worth (50%)

Year 2
Total market sales is  $200
Company A sells 50$ worth (so 25% of market)
Company B sells 50$ worth (25%)
Company C sells 50$ worth  (25%)
Company D sells 50$ worth (25%)

Every company had fewer sales.  Company A had increase in Market share but decrease by 1/2 of it's sales.

I suspect that is what you are seeing with Pentax.


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## 407370

TCampbell said:


> I'm not entirely certain I'd want such features in a camera....


I would...

Use case 1  - My daughters party. She wants good pics on instagram / snapchat / etc during the party. I snap away taking 1024 x 768 on my good camera using 4G connection.

Use case 2 - I am taking landscapes in full res. Delete rejected pics / get within Wi-Fi range / PP with Irfanview or similar (apply several layers of processing with a single saved workflow) post to 500px or whatever. All within camera.

I am not OCD with processing pics and I dont get paid for them but that accounts for 90% of the pic taking population and excludes pro users.


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## table1349

407370 said:


> TCampbell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not entirely certain I'd want such features in a camera....
> 
> 
> 
> I would...
> 
> Use case 1  - My daughters party. She wants good pics on instagram / snapchat / etc during the party. I snap away taking 1024 x 768 on my good camera using 4G connection.
> 
> Use case 2 - I am taking landscapes in full res. Delete rejected pics / get within Wi-Fi range / PP with Irfanview or similar (apply several layers of processing with a single saved workflow) post to 500px or whatever. All within camera.
> 
> I am not OCD with processing pics and I dont get paid for them but that accounts for 90% of the pic taking population and excludes pro users.
Click to expand...

Case 1.  Teach you daughter the meaning of the word patience.  Good things come to those who wait.  Kids these days feel the need for instant gratification.  

Case 2.  To many people these days feel the need to just be average.  Perhaps that comes from a need for instant gratification, or perhaps they just don't want to learn what they need to do to be above average.  What ever the reason it is an indication of their character and upbringing.  That whole "oh it's good enough" attitude. 

Besides you can get what you want now, you just have to pay for it.


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## 407370

gryphonslair99 said:


> Case 1. Teach you daughter the meaning of the word patience



Aha thats where I have been going wrong!! Teenage picture taking accounts for about 90% of the total of all pics taken on a daily basis. Their use of a photo is the same as a spoken word. Its used and forgotten in an instant. Its not the same use as I have for a photograph but it a valid use of photography nonetheless.



gryphonslair99 said:


> Case 2. To many people these days feel the need to just be average.


I count myself to be not average. I am me. My take on photography is not a subject of judgement by other people. Some people like what I do and many more dont really care. Either way photography is a hobby and I get exactly what I want from it.


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## table1349

407370 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Case 1. Teach you daughter the meaning of the word patience
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aha thats where I have been going wrong!! Teenage picture taking accounts for about 90% of the total of all pics taken on a daily basis. Their use of a photo is the same as a spoken word. *Its used and forgotten in an instant.* Its not the same use as I have for a photograph but it a valid use of photography nonetheless.
Click to expand...

A new definition for the word meaningless.



> I count myself to be not average. I am me. My take on photography is not a subject of judgement by other people. Some people like what I do and many more dont really care. Either way photography is a hobby and I get exactly what I want from it.


Apparently not since wifi is already available.  Why aren't you using it?


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## 407370

gryphonslair99 said:


> A new definition for the word meaningless





gryphonslair99 said:


> Apparently not since wifi is already available. Why aren't you using it?



Wow, have I hit a nerve or something?

I am pointing out that photography is different for everyone holding a device that produces electronic images. My view is as stated and is not *meaningless*. Photography has evolved into a form of communication popular with a large section of the worlds population. This particular form does not require the perfect picture and does require filters that add bunny ears.
I would like to connect my camera directly to a selection of apps that allow me to take a pic then add my own editing via a "IN CAMERA" workflow where the last step is a transfer to the chosen web site. Connecting a camera to a computer via Wi-Fi seems a waste of effort.


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## table1349

Nope, just never understood people wanting everything including the kitchen sink in a camera.  More to go wrong. More expensive and why should the majority of consumers waste money on something that they don't want/need/or will use just for a few.  Especially when a lot of the things people want stuffed into the camera already exists as an accessory.  

As for editing, laptops suck for editing purposes, the tiny uncalibrated screen on a camera is worse than just sucky for editing. As they would say on Space Balls, that idea has gone to ludicrous speed.


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## astroNikon

It's all over now folks.  

Kodak is back and going to take away the camera market from, Nikon, Canon and the cell phone market from Samsung, Apple, LG, Google, etc.
Kodak's new smartphone puts photos and nostalgia first


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## table1349

But is it as useful as a Samsung phone for starting a fire if you are lost in the woods?


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## click1911

Maybe.  The last digital camera I bought was a Nikon Coolpix.  It still makes better pictures than my Samsung7, although the Samsung7 does have an impressive camera and it is generally with you and you can listen to music on it plus it is a phone.

Also what do you want to do with the picture?  If you immediately want to attach a "selfi" to a message and send it to friends then maybe the smart phones is better.


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## Derrel

Sports-Illustrated has JUST published its first-ever cover image taken with a phone camera. Seriously! On Facebook, S-I is pushing a bunch of free content from a 20-year veteran named..well, here, let me paste a snippet from only one aspect of the Sports-Illustrated stuff they are paying to promote...

"Photographer Michael J Le Brecht II uses the Moto Z™ Droid and Hasselblad True Zoom Moto Mod™ to snap the first-ever SI cover shot on a Smartphone."

Interestingly, they show him in a photo above that caption, shooting the tall-aspect image, using a lightstand, and an umbrella bracket, to satbilize the phone-camera...not a tripod, but a light stand, with a tilting, plastic, umbrella mounting bracket on the lightstand, and the camera being stabilized by this set-up. To his right is a heavy-duty boom on a big thick stand, and some kinda' light apparently off the end of the boom arm...

This is Hasselblad's newest "camera market" effort...a snap-on, 10x, optical zoom camera accessory for the Moto-Z droid line.


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