# Shoot through umbrella question



## schuylercat (Apr 22, 2008)

Anyone use shoot through umbrellas? I have a pair of 580EX's and a ST-E2 remote, and am looking for solution for shooting couples/family shots of 4-6 people max. Strobist has a couple of articles about using shoot throughs for a single sitter (including the one stating he'll never shoot reflector again, but that's another story), and the look of the example shot was simple, contrasty, and tight.

Anyone here use shoot throughs for larger groups/more complex arrangements? Please tell me about it.

Better: how about an engagement shot (in dress/tux or out of dress/tux: whatever), indoor, location shot? I am looking to buy a pair of 45" Westcotts/Photoflexes, and would like to hear your experience/suggestions.


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## table1349 (Apr 22, 2008)

I think you are going to have a hard time getting good lighting for a group of 4-6 with that small of shoot thru and 580's.  I have only done groups that size with an 86" shoot thru and studio strobes.  Maybe someone else knows a technique that you could use with the equipment you mention that would work.


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## Village Idiot (Apr 22, 2008)

A 43" collapsible that they use on Strobist can cover a wide area if you position it correctly. I did pick up a 60" that I'll probably try using with two strobes. At least with the 60", you don't have to worry about over spill from the flash.


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## table1349 (Apr 22, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> A 43" collapsible that they use on Strobist can cover a wide area if you position it correctly. I did pick up a 60" that I'll probably try using with two strobes. At least with the 60", you don't have to worry about over spill from the flash.



Now you are going to make me go try it just to see with a pair of 580's or 383's for that matter and my two 43" convertable's.


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## schuylercat (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks guys - I have done some more reading and as long as I only have the two 580's there's no need to get shoot throughs larger than 45".  At full power these flashes make a pretty big pop, but I suspect it'll never be big enough unless I reflect rather than shoot through.  I have a very old pair of 40" silver reflectors (no swivels or stands yet), and no experience with them.

The shoot I'm scheduled for is up in Alberta in June, and there are tons of well-lit outdoor spaces I can go to for natural light shots.  I'll use the umbrellas for bride/groom portraits I think.  I'll have a month to experiment as well, so long as I place my order today: pair of 45's (I'm gonna go look at Strobist and see what that 43" was, VI), three swivels (one spare), three 9' stands (two for ligths, one for a 55" Photoflex white/gold reflector that's been rotting in my closet).

Gryphonslair - if you do any experimentation...can you share it please?  I'd love to see what you come up with using 580's, and any advice you gather would be greatly appreciated.

And another question: convertables or just plain old shoot throughs?  I have the silver ones, but I've read they are a little more harsh than white.


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## Village Idiot (Apr 23, 2008)

The 43" ers collapse. The stem slides into itself and folds down. it's like 12" long when carrying it.

It doesn't matter how powerful your flash is for the coverage, it matters on the size of the umbrella and the positioning. There's an article on the strobist blog that details this. But the farther away the umbrella light source is, the more coverage and more power you'll need. It's completely possible to overshoot your umbrella as well. Set the 580EX to 24mm zoom and but the umbrella close to a wall and shoot. You'll see the shadow of the light affected by the umbrella and then on the outside you'll see the hard light you get from firing over the edges of the umbrella.


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## Early (Apr 23, 2008)

I see no mention of using a flash meter.  It will take the hit or miss out of your group shots.


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## Big Mike (Apr 23, 2008)

A photography instructor of mine (and long time pro) said that he always preferred to reflect from an umbrella, rather than shoot through.


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## schuylercat (Apr 24, 2008)

VI - that's my first task: setting the whole mess up and experimenting with light overflow and such. I have one unobstructed big wall in my house (um...it's pink. Daughter's room) - I have some learning to do.

Mike: I have read about a few different schools of thought. Strobist had a recent entry that stated "90% of the time..." he'd use shoot-through. I've not done either, so it's off to practice, practice, practice. I will be getting a pair of 45" convertibles to start, and I have a pair of VERY old 35" silver umbrellas to play with too (inherited them from an old girlfriend's brother). It'll be fun!


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## JerryPH (Apr 24, 2008)

shoot through an umbrella with battery powered strobes and 6 people? Not going to happen... well not if you want good results.

You will get a little improvement if you bounce off an umbrella and an even BETTER improvement if you shoot WITHOUT an umbrella at all !

Shoot direct flash and enjoy the best results your strobes can offer you.  Set the strobes to shoot medium-wide, BTW.


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## Big Mike (Apr 24, 2008)

Good point.  

Hot-shoe flash units can put out a lot of light...but their affect is greatly reduced when you use a diffuser.  This is partially because they use a front lens element like a Fresnel lens, which focuses and directs the light.  When you diffuse the light beam, a lot of the power is lost because it's not a focused beam anymore.

Of course, not using a diffuser will mean harder light...so, like everything else, it's a trade off.


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## schuylercat (Apr 24, 2008)

Hmm.

Outdoor, then.  Late afternoon.  Have to find a good spot.  Speedlites on stands on my right and left, parallel for fill.  I'm going to gather a group of my neighbors and pratice, see where ETTL takes me, then transit to manual from there.  Thanks Jerry & Mike.

The couple, on the other hand, will be indoors for a few sessions.  This is going to get tricky.  Maybe that Strobist article on hacking my flash to 12,000,000 watt/sec of output will help.  What the heck.  They're only $400 a piece... :er:


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## Big Mike (Apr 24, 2008)

Just remember that power is distance.  If having enough power is an issue...then get your lights closer to the subject.  As a plus, this also makes the light softer.  So when using an umbrella, for example, get it as close as you can.  This is why it's extra hard for group shots...because you need to have enough light spread to cover the group, so it might have to be further back.


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## gravy (Apr 24, 2008)

schuylercat said:


> Hmm.
> The couple, on the other hand, will be indoors for a few sessions.  This is going to get tricky.  Maybe that Strobist article on hacking my flash to 12,000,000 watt/sec of output will help.  What the heck.  They're only $400 a piece... :er:



you know that was an april fool's joke, right? 

:lmao:


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## JerryPH (Apr 24, 2008)

I am pretty sure he knew it was a joke... lol


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## schuylercat (Apr 25, 2008)

That was a joke?  Damn! 

Mike - I think that fact is what scares people most about off-camera lighting: 1/2 distance from light to subject is 1 stop in-camera.  In full manual, that idea makes me feel like I'm juggling totally uncontrolled elements: from light spillover control to subject/backdrop lighting ratio controlled by both flash power and distance relative to each other...all narrowed through the lens to that little bitty focal plane...and THEN you can start thinking about shutter and aperture.  I have to experience this myself, and I have to experience it a lot, becasue no matter how well it is explained, doing it makes it happen, right?  Good thing I'm not burning up roll after roll of Provia...

On the up side, my mother (who is very busy spending my inheritance on home improvements and vacations as all of her children directed her to do since my dad died) decided she'd forgotten my birthday last year.  She didn't, but that's not the point: she bought everything in my Amazon cart for me as a gift.  2 - 8' light stands, 2 - 45" convertible umbrellas, 2 swivels, a super clamp, and a big padded tripod/lighting carry on.

And...2 Honl speedstraps, 1 - 8" snoot, 1 - 5" shorty snoot, and 2 gobo/barn doors that I had in my wish list.  She neglected to buy the 70-200 f/2.8L Canon lens I had in there, which is understandable: she's remodeling her kitchen.  Sometimes everyone needs a mom, I guess.

So, in a week (sooner, if I get my new memory cards after smacking down a seller on Ebay who sold me 5 counterfeits) ) I'll have Stobist open on my laptop, my kids up in a room with a big ugly pink wall (to be draped with some WalMart sheets, one set estimated about 30% gray and another about 80% gray, if a little blue), and a whiteboard with notes on it in the shot as I experiement with setups and such.  More to come.


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## Village Idiot (Apr 25, 2008)

With experience it all becomes 2nd nature. Lighting is a very daunting task to some one who's never tried it and really doesn't know what to buy or what o do with the stuff once they have it.

Strobist is great as the information makes this much easier and much accessible to your average Joe. 

From there, a lot of the knowledge and techniques are gained from experience. After learning the basics and practicing for a bit, you'll know that according to your flash's guide number, @ 8 feet away on 1/4 power, you need an aperture of 6.3. Then you stick an umbrella infront of it. That requires about an extra stop of light, so you crank it up to 1/2 power and take a shot. It's about spot on and may need a miniscule change in aperture or flash power.

That's about how it should go for you. Enough time playing with the toys and you'll know exactly what to do for exactly what you want.


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## JerryPH (Apr 25, 2008)

That's one of the tips that they give you. Expeience will tell you that at a certain distance and light strength setting, you will be able to use a certain F-stop, and to put that info on a sticky or tape on your strobe.

Me, I know this little piece of info how it relates to my equipment, but I like to see the result on a lightmeter in advance and go from there.

Time and practice are basically all thats needed along with a lot of reading and understanding what is going on, on the strobist site... it comes together quite fast actually... but the practice and seeing it all happen first hand is what ties it all together.

As I mentioned before, I am more technical than artsy or creative, and I really get off on all that techno-babble... lol.


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