# Pot calling Kettle....."Hello?"



## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

Ok, I'm prolly not the best person to be saying this given my past behavior.
However, I'm a little disturbed at the amount of people yelling at new people for not looking things up, reading the rules, etc.
A lot of them are just plain mean, and it's coming from a same team mentality.  I cringe sometimes just reading replies to beginners.
That's sad.  It's like the people who should be most beneficial forgot their beginnings.  Anyhoo, I think there are MUCH nicer ways to get the point accross.
Yeah, you get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over, but no one put anyone in charge, except those who are moderators.  Moderators aren't do this.  But they don't seem to be stopping it either.

Just a guess on my part, but I'm pretty sure that forums work like this:

More members mean more advertising.  More advertising means more dollars.  More dollars mean more cool stuff for us.

Running people off, being mean, being superior, doesn't help any of us.  I'd love to see this forum get video, and other new forum trends.  

I KNOW that you see the same questions come up over and over.  I can't recall for sure, but I think I've been here for 6 years nows, and I know I've seen them come up over and over again.  But I don't understand why we can't just be nice.  No one makes ANYONE answer them.......certainly not with answers like "Look it up loser.  That's been asked a zillion times lazy person".  Not an exact quote but pretty damn close.

If you don't want to answer it.....if you think the person is lazy.....hey....don't answer.  The person might just be really eager to learn.  There are other people dying to try out their "helping" teeth.

Bottom line is we could have VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!  LOL.  Just a nudge to the owner!

Am I alone in seeing this disturbing trend? (That I have also been party to)


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## jols (Sep 24, 2007)

i have been on this site for a coouple of weeks now and this is exactly why i have noe said much and do all my asking on another forum.

i still dip in to read but wont be asking any questions ffear of a telling off


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## lostprophet (Sep 24, 2007)

I noticed this a few months back, but nothing has really changed. I hate to say it but this forum is not the place it once was.


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

jols said:


> i have been on this site for a coouple of weeks now and this is exactly why i have noe said much and do all my asking on another forum.
> 
> i still dip in to read but wont be asking any questions ffear of a telling off


 

Please feel free to PM me if you have a question Jols.  If I don't know the answer, maybe I can find someone who can answer it for you.  
Honestly, most of the people here are nice.  Unfortuantely they aren't the most vocal.....for the same reasons.
Hugs............


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

lostprophet said:


> I noticed this a few months back, but nothing has really changed. I hate to say it but this forum is not the place it once was.


 

Hi LP,
You have been here a long time too.  Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with the gang beatings......  That's why I wanted to put it out there.


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## jols (Sep 24, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Please feel free to PM me if you have a question Jols. If I don't know the answer, maybe I can find someone who can answer it for you.
> Honestly, most of the people here are nice. Unfortuantely they aren't the most vocal.....for the same reasons.
> Hugs............


 

thanks very much i might just do that.


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## lostprophet (Sep 24, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Yeah, you get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over, but no one put anyone in charge, except those who are moderators.  Moderators aren't do this.*  But they don't seem to be stopping it either*.



Ok so I will probably be banned for saying this but....

What Mods? 

ok ok that wasn't nice. I know we ALL have lives outside of the forum and I know some of the Mods are very busy at the moment but there have been many times of late when I've logged on and there are no Mods on. 

Maybe this forum needs one or two new mods, even if its just as a temporary measure while the established Mods are busy??

Oh and in case your wondering I am NOT offering to be a Mod


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## JDS (Sep 24, 2007)

It's unfortunate that some of the 'old-timers' get so irritated at the newbs that come in asking the same questions again and again.  To try to make it make more sense, think of it this way:

You're in a room full of 20 people.  One comes up and asks you a simple question.  You're happy to answer, and you answer it loud enough for everyone else in the room to hear.

Then another person asks you the same question, and again you're happy to answer, and answer loud enough for others to hear..Then the 3rd, and you start to get irritated that no one is listening..you get the idea.

It doesn't warrant a snappy 'you lazy idiot, read what's there!' response.  This is just an illustration to show why it's easy to get irritated over it.

That being said..I'm working on a small 'project' to try to address most of the frequently asked questions so that if a newb decides not to read the thread/article, someone can politely point them to it for the answer to their question(s).  My intention is to have it posted in the Beginner's forum and get it stickied.  Once I get it in a draft form, I'll be needing help to polish it up..can I count on your help?


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

Hey LP, I vote for you and me as mods.  (That will have them rolling over in their chairs, eh?) LOL.
It's a two way street.  I seem to have Mike on me every step I take, but then again, you can't see a mod for miles when a beating is taking place in the beginner forum.....except for DigitalMatt, he's spot on.
Anyway, this isn't about naming names or saying who is doing right and who isnt'.  Yeah, the mods could help, but it's really up to us to police ourselves.
If one of these gangsters would stop for a second and think back to when they first started out, the first time they went on a forum, the answers, I think, would be much much much different.


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

JDS said:


> It's unfortunate that some of the 'old-timers' get so irritated at the newbs that come in asking the same questions again and again. To try to make it make more sense, think of it this way:
> 
> You're in a room full of 20 people. One comes up and asks you a simple question. You're happy to answer, and you answer it loud enough for everyone else in the room to hear.
> 
> ...


 
And that would be SO COOL.   Just a, "hey, I found your answer here.  It's really cool.  check it out".

That takes less time to type than some of the diatribes I've seen lately basically calling new people every name in the book.


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## JDS (Sep 24, 2007)

Exactly..kill 2 birds with one stone.  If we're lucky and the newbs read it, we might not even see the 2nd bird all the time.


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

It would come up again the next week and the next and the next, but a simple, "Hey, look over here....it's cool" would work.
Instead what we get is, " Didn't your ignorant butt do a search? It's there if you do a search,you newbie."  And no one steps in publically to say anything.
That is what I hate.
I learned so much here years ago. Now, if I wasn't so established, I'd be terrified to post.


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

And if we could get the membership up, maybe we could get a wiki and a video vault.
But........with the gangster mentality..........I just don't see it happenening.  And it's a shame, because this forum is my favorite forum.


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## lostprophet (Sep 24, 2007)

Whilst I agree with us policing ourselves we do need the Mods to overlook us, a forum is a lot like a school classroom, take away the Teacher and you will soon have anarcy


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

lostprophet said:


> Whilst I agree with us policing ourselves we do need the Mods to overlook us, a forum is a lot like a school classroom, take away the Teacher and you will soon have anarcy


 
I'm a tree hugging lib, and I don't think we need all that. I think we just need to check ourselves, and call others on their own bad behavior.

The mods, though selected by the owner, are not all that different.  The gangsters act like mods all the time.  I get so confused I have to look it up and I've been here forever.  But yet, there they are telling people to quit being lazy, switch to other forums, read the rules, etc.


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## jstuedle (Sep 24, 2007)

I agree the forum isn't what it once was, I mentioned that in a recent post. Some things better, some not. The bashing is most objectionable, and the political remarks before the "real" answer a real turnoff. I spoke up a few times, but didn't seem to matter. This is my fav forum, but all things do change. I think maybe this one is getting too big to run efficiently/effectively. I don't know, but it used to be a polite place, hope it returns to be so again.


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## zendianah (Sep 24, 2007)

Agreed... on all your points.. But then I would get critized for being to agreeable. It seems that some people on here just want to be rude. Even though I know that the same question has been asked 1000 Kagillion times it gives us no right to be rude and ignorant. I am not a pro and never confessed to be. I try to give an answer to the best of my ability. It seems like people have run off. I havent seen Rayna for awhile... Maybe she got sick of the crap. I needed a break from the insaults. Not saying all where directed at me but I dont enjoy people verbal assaulting someone else. This isnt a frat house. Its a place to learn. Even the pros can learn something from us beginners. Maybe we have a fresh look at things. Maybe we dont. Be open to others.. KARMA is a ***** !


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## zendianah (Sep 24, 2007)

Oh and ALSO... Off topic.. Sorry Cindy.  -- How about putting our level of qualification below our signature?


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

zendianah said:


> Oh and ALSO... Off topic.. Sorry Cindy. -- How about putting our level of qualification below our signature?


 
I do that, but I'm one of the few.
I think people without qualifications have reactions that are valid.  It just depends on what you want.  Are you asking for a PPA judge or are you asking for Joe Photo, who has a voice too.


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## elsaspet (Sep 24, 2007)

zendianah said:


> Oh and ALSO... Off topic.. Sorry Cindy. -- How about putting our level of qualification below our signature?


One thing I'd love the Mods to do, is ask members for a website.  It could be a photobucket gallery for all I care.  I just would like to know who is giving me "advice".  I think we all do.  But that has been a bad subject in the past that almost got me kicked out, so needless to say:
I'd rather be here to help people.
I rock, yay!  just kidding.


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## zendianah (Sep 24, 2007)

Oh and also... It seems like -- OR maybe its just me. People arent commenting on peoples photos anymore. Well.. It could be just my photos..   Maybe people are being kind and not saying.. DAMN girl you suck. Thank god for Delete. Maybe you should trying knitting or macromae. OR maybe just sit there cause you suck at everything.   OK sorry Im in a funny mood.


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## terri (Sep 24, 2007)

> Ok, I'm prolly not the best person to be saying this given my past behavior


 But irony is always so much fun, Cindy!  Now, I mean that as a total joke and I hope you know that. 

This forum _is_ in a different place now than it was in its infancy, that's for sure. Part of the blame for the "louder tone" is easily attributed to growth - we all don't know each other as easily as we did when it was a smaller place. 

You guys are encouraged to put as much out there in the way of photographic qualifications as you have. I'm not sure it will keep our Joe Newbie from getting slapped for asking innocently: "So which camera is best?" though. 

I don't see more moderators being added in our current state, really. Nor do I think that just seeing people's names in green logged in here keeps a jerk from acting like a jerk, so constant vigilance by moderators isn't really a cure. 

I think I will sound like a broken record myself by repeating: use the "report post" feature - and use it _whenever_ you see fit - it's not there just for spam. We have some kind of language in the guidelines (I wrote it long ago and can't quote it now) about how it is impossible for the mods to read every post, so we're going to miss snipes and slaps - no question. BUT we can certainly respond to a reported post and take appropriate action. 

So please remember, while we can't let you count on us to stumble across every nasty exchange, you can definitely count on us to respond to your reported posts. You can even PM one of us to voice your concerns if you'd prefer. The "report post" feature sends an automatic email to ALL of us so it's probably quicker, but you should never hesitate to use a PM if you'd rather. We're here to help.

Cindy, I like the idea of the video and the wiki - I've seen them in action and they can indeed be cool. 



> That being said..I'm working on a small 'project' to try to address most of the frequently asked questions so that if a newb decides not to read the thread/article, someone can politely point them to it for the answer to their question(s). My intention is to have it posted in the Beginner's forum and get it stickied. Once I get it in a draft form, I'll be needing help to polish it up..can I count on your help? ;-)


JDS: this sounds great. Would you mind letting me see the draft when you have it ready? We can put it in a couple of forums, if need be. Thanks for wanting to help! 

As an aside: I'm all for seeing the forum grow and have direction, but I'm at a loss as to what folks seem to want. This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I had in mind a new "Educational" forum where these types of ideas were to be launched, and the new critique forum was intended to be step one towards that goal. (However, the way we wanted to approach photo critique as a learning tool required moderation and the membership let us know this was not what they wanted. So it's reverted back to what it was in the past.) I certainly don't bring this up to rehash past hurts, just to offer up an explanation of sorts as to why certain things have appeared to grind to a halt in recent months.

Back on topic: I'm not certain there is any way to stop rude comments, but with everyone helping by reporting what they see, we can certainly crack down more on repeat offenders. The membership is what keeps this place alive and the friendly tone going. Your input for new ideas is always appreciated.

Thanks, all!


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## Photovision (Sep 24, 2007)

Has anyone noticed how cumbersome forum searches can be? Words come back as too common,too short etc. Tried for example H1 (too short). I added Sony+H1 and got every topic that mentioned Sony! And each new search requires you to type in a new number verification to get started. Most of these things are typical of all forum search engines. Chances of finding what you are looking for can be quite slim.


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## Mike Jordan (Sep 24, 2007)

One thing you will find, is that any site you are on, there are always people that are going to say they remember when it was better than it currently is. And that the forum over the hill is a much better forum than the one they are one.  It's human nature for people to look at the past in fondness (even if it wasn't) and look ahead for something better (even if it isn't).  

On any active, healthy site, there are always going to be those that are friendly, helpful, errogant, rude, funny, encouraging, demeaning, thick skinned, thin skinned, serious, unforgetable, you wish you could forget, experts, full of knowleage or just full of it.  Not necessarily in that order and more than one of the above could apply. 

It's just the nature of the internet.  Although there comes a time when putting up with what you don't want to put up with becomes too much, a lot of times too many people are just too thin skinned to be on some forums.  Your time on a forum like this is what you make it. But it's like a marriage (well, maybe a commune) and it takes some work from everyone to make it work. 

Frankly, for those of you that haven't gotten around very much, this site is a whole lot better than many out there. It's got room for improvement (and it did 2 years ago as well when I was active and then wondered off to other places) but it still has a better class of members than many out there. 

As for answering the same newbie questions over and over... I have a terrible memory, so I have trouble remembering the last time I answered a question... so it's not so annoying to answer it more than once.  Of course if you are going to ask the question, you should be prepared to hear the answer.  Nothing drives away people willing to help or give suggestion than having what they say ignored, critisized, or thrown back in their face.  Now that I have seen on here by newbies.  You don't have to agree with the answer or follow the suggestion, but don't just dismiss the person that gives it either because you didn't like it or don't feel it's very helpful.  As my tag line says, don't forget to take the lens cap off when you seek help. 



Mike


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## TCimages (Sep 24, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Ok, I'm prolly not the best person to be saying this given my past behavior.
> However, I'm a little disturbed at the amount of people yelling at new people for not looking things up, reading the rules, etc.
> A lot of them are just plain mean, and it's coming from a same team mentality. I cringe sometimes just reading replies to beginners.
> That's sad. It's like the people who should be most beneficial forgot their beginnings. Anyhoo, I think there are MUCH nicer ways to get the point accross.
> ...


 

I'm new here and I couldn't agree with your comments more.  I read some of the responses and cringe as well.  I normally don't say anything because it would only hijack the thread and the original poster would get nothing from that either.  
Anyway, it's a real shame that new folks trying to learn can't get a question answered because those with the knowledge would rather spend more time rudley commenting on rules.  
BTW- It's not just about rules, but also terrible nonconstructive comments about the overal picture or worse, comments about the model or subject (which should always be a rule NOT to do).  

I'm no expert, but I welcome anyone to hit me up with questions.  

peace out


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## Corry (Sep 24, 2007)

Unfortunately I don't have time to read every word of this thread, but I tried to skim it the best I could.  

I would definitely like to reiterate the 'report posts' comment.  

We honestly try our best, but it's not possible for the mod team to read everything on the forum.  Don't worry about us getting mad about you reporting a post....if you think it might possibly be offensive (or it might possibly be spam) but you just aren't sure, report it and say something like "not sure about this, but thought I should bring it to your attention" in the comments section of the report post page.  

Trust me, the mods are not just letting people get away with mean, degrading remarks....if there is one sitting there, a mod has most likely not seen it.  So, make us see it.  Please!  

Yes, things are different than they once were.  No, they won't ever be the same again...forums are forever growing...you can't make them stay the same.  

That doesn't mean they will always become bad....just not the same.  

With the general membership working together with the mod team, we can still have a smoothly running forum.  

I've personally only had ONE post/thread brought to my attention (other than spam) in recent times, and I took care of it.  

I do want to say, though, that I do understand what all of you are saying....and I'm not disagreeing with any of it.  But, again, I'll emphasize....with all of your help, the mods will be able to do a better job and giving you what you want.


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## TCimages (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks Corry.  For me personally, my post wasn't about pointing the finger to the mods (you can only do so much), I guess I was hoping that the frequent posters that provide assistance would read this thread and consider being more compassionate to the newbies looking for help.  Maybe they need to consider not posing as a moderator and use the report comment feature.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Terri and Cory,
I in no way intended this to be a bashing moderator thingie, and I hope you guys don't see it that way at all.

Basically, I was trying to get us to police ourselves whenever possible.  If we quit being mean to one another, we might be able to get some really cool stuff. 
Corry, I hope your Grandma is doing better.  Hugs......


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## Chiller (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Hi LP,
> You have been here a long time too. Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with the gang beatings...... That's why I wanted to put it out there.


 
Thank you for bringing this up Cindy.   I used to post here a lot more then I do now, and was almost done with TPF a while back, but I still have a lot of friends here, and a few newbies that I have met.  Im not sure how many people are left from 2003( I think 4 of us) but this forum has had its growth, plus its down moments.  
  I have dissaggreed with thie gang/bullying  as well.  I have seen newbies bashed for simple mistakes.  
  The mods have a lot on their plate, and being a mod on another forum, I know what goes on behind the scenes, and it takes a long time to get little things done, especially with a full time job.  
  It is up to the members to conduct themselves and show some respect for other members.  If somebody is having a problem..help them, or pm them.  
  If an image is not up to the "professionals" on here...dont reply with..."this does nothing for me"  try to help them.   Im sure all of us were in this position of "newbie" at one time.  Sh**, I remember my first post here, and if it were not for the people who helped me then, I probably would not even own a camera now. 
  We are all here for the same reason, and with 15000 different personalities, there is going to be conflicts, but I feel it is better to help each other along them push them aside.  
 Sorry...just my 2 cents.   Going back to my coffin now.


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## PNA (Sep 25, 2007)

Hey, hey.....here we go again!!

In my book, "please and thank you" always worked........

My $.02.

Chiller....doesn't it get dark in there?????


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## LaFoto (Sep 25, 2007)

Ah, c'mon Chiller, stay out of your coffin for yet another while, I'm always happy to see you around and was all :shock: and ale: when you said you'd leave back then. Don't.

And what you say is very right. 
The new "everyone only wants everything spoon-fed to them"-trend on here with the parallel "...and-we-won't-serve-them"-one are not nice. I remember that also I once asked "What is HDR?" when the abbreviation showed and showed again and I saw those interesting pics by woodsac that no longer really looked like photos, but did, and did not, and then those letters, and I asked! Just asked. Did NOT go to "Google" to get flooded with 12.000 articles on the internet. But to "my" photography forum, the one that I go to IN ORDER TO also be able to ask something "stupid" (it is only stupid to those who KNOW, never to those who DON'T know). Then suddenly someone said "LDR" and I asked "So what is LDR then?" With a minute or two of thinking, also I could have DEDUCED that it most likely is LOW dynamic range, but I still asked because I was posting and the question came up that very moment.

Why do people join forums, anyway? Special, theme-related forums. Like a photography forum. To be told: just walk out again and into Google and look it up there?

Yes, after over 3 years on here, the same question DO come up over and again. But so what? Those were MY questions back when I was new, too!!!


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## Chiller (Sep 25, 2007)

PNA said:


> Hey, hey.....here we go again!!
> 
> In my book, "please and thank you" always worked........
> 
> ...


 
Damn it..I broke a nail scratching at the lid.  :lmao:


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## Corry (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Hi Terri and Cory,
> I in no way intended this to be a bashing moderator thingie, and I hope you guys don't see it that way at all.
> 
> Basically, I was trying to get us to police ourselves whenever possible.  If we quit being mean to one another, we might be able to get some really cool stuff.
> Corry, I hope your Grandma is doing better.  Hugs......



I didn't think you were...this thread has been very civil (and I thank you all for that).  

I do want to make sure EVERYONE knows however, not to think that the mods disagree.  I personally have probably been the loudest (behind the scenes) when it comes to making this place welcoming for newbies.  This is where I got my start....I don't feel I'm a great photographer by any means (but that's my own fault for not putting the effort into it), but I am a thousand times better than when I first started here.  I want everyone to have a similar experience to mine, here.  

I am glad that you are all calling for action from the membership as a whole.  Without some self policing, a forum this big wouldn't work....think in terms of a real life crowd....you have 5-6 (or however many of us there are) 'moderators' and 20,000 in the crowd (or, even if you just take the several hundred unique visitors that log on each day).  5-6 cannot alone contain 20,000 or even a few hundred.  

...with all that in mind....I've seen MUCH worse forums that let abuse go on and on constantly....though we do experience our problems, I think TPF is still a pretty good place on the net....and we have a GREAT group of members to thank for that.  You guys, overall (every family has it's bad apples now and then!   ) have been wonderful, and this place wouldn't be the same without you.  

I am at school right now, and really need to start writing some scholarship essays, so I'm gonna end that there, cuz when I start getting mushy, I GET MUSHY!


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## wildmaven (Sep 25, 2007)

Repeated questions can get old, but we all have that in our jobs. We just need to remember that, even though we've heard something 1,000 times, it's still the first time for that person. For example, at work I have heard "am I going to have a reaction to this" or "am I going to glow in the dark" thousands of times over the past 20 years. Do I roll my eyes or snap at them? No. Because this is a completely new experience for them and I should answer their question just as honestly and compassionately as I did for the first person who asked it.  

It's an epidemic on the internet nowadays to be flippant with responses. I'm on a birding newsgroup and got an ID wrong after an hour of pouring through my field guides. Someone said, "why don't you use a field guide before reporting a sighting?" Today, I come on here and am told to practice more before posting something. What does this do to someone less forgiving? It makes them go away. Remember, that person you just dismissed could have one day been a top poster of the forum. Instead, you send them cringing to another site, where they tell everyone there, "don't go to TPF, they're horrible people" which isn't true at all. 

It all comes down to the golden rule of treating others as you would wish to be treated. Remember you weren't born knowing what you know today. There is always someone better than you, and always someone just learning. 

Marian


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Corry and Chiller, and LaFoto
God, you guys are so dead on.
Say we just logged on here today with the same abilities or lack of, that we all had way back then. Man. I don't know about you guys, but I'd probably have never shared another photo, ever, in my life. I would have been convinced I was too stupid to ever take a photo.
And I'd still be working at the sucky foam factory, hating my life.

But, we were fortunate. We had this really sharing group of loving and helpful people who assisted our growth.

Hertz, who had over 20 years of professional experience, and was a Professor in Photography, personally mentored me. Terri showed me how to do new things and think outside the box. Mentos and Tuna were way cool too. LaFoto and Corry, you were always that voice of encouragement saying, "You did good, but here's what I would do".
So many of you guys were sooooo helpful. And I asked all the same dumb questions all the rest of the newbes ask.....cause hey, I was a newbe.

The bullies forget that they asked all the same questions of their teachers. Maybe they didn't learn on the internet, but I can assure you their teachers rolled their eyes with all of the newbe questions. If they had a good teacher, they normally turned out to be a good photog. If they had a bad one, they are prolly working as a lab tech in Walgreens or something.

I am a member of MANY photography forums, but I love this place above all of them. This is were I feel I learned the very most. And had the most fun as well.

What I would love to see, is the regular ordinary poster like myself, stand up against the few ball wrecker bullies on here. Let's let them know that we don't want that here.

We want video and wiki!


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

And for the purists who learned "from the sweat soaked hours in the library", I'd say this: "Aren't you glad that some photog cared enough to write a book to answer all your "stupid" newbe questions?


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## stellar_gal (Sep 25, 2007)

I have only been in this forum for a few months and it has helped me out so many times.  I have not been told off (yet).  I'm not ballsy enough to start something though.  I always do a search when I need help with something, but I may not always use the right key words and missed the previous posts on my topic.  For instance I just posted a thread for Help with beach portraits.  I looked up beach and did not find anything helpful, so I sure don't want anyone telling me to do a search.  I don't find it necessary to say in advance that I already looked on this forum and googled it, blah, blah. There is enough non-essential wording on the forum as it is.  Those nasty replies do need to be stumped.  I bet a lot of those that do it sure would not say that in a room full of people.  Like you said- just don't answer it and someone that is happy to help -Cindy, ect- will be happy to answer it.  

Cindy- on your last post-- YES!  I am so happy for the photogs that write those books.  I use those resources to the fullest and always want to send them a fruit basket to thank the authors in the end.


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## terri (Sep 25, 2007)

> I in no way intended this to be a bashing moderator thingie, and I hope you guys don't see it that way at all.


Not even a little bit, m'dear! I was just explaining it from an admin point of view, but I know you care about the forum and only wanted to bring something up that was bothering you. I hope you always feel empowered to do that - as well as take a stand against the bullying type of behavior you're talking about. 

(Those days of seeing your pictures from your old job seem soooo long ago!) 



> Im not sure how many people are left from 2003( I think 4 of us)


That many, Carl....?  I have you and Jeff in mind, for which I am most grateful. Chase doesn't count. :mrgreen:


----------



## Digital Matt (Sep 25, 2007)

As far as the nasty replies, they are immature, unnecessary, and should definitely be stopped.  I sit on the fence on the actual issue, however.  I remember my humble beginnings in photography, and I do remember asking a fair amount of questions.  I also remember doing a fair amount of the work myself.  I got books from the library, and I scoured the internet and read every great resource I could find.  I went to school.  I worked very hard at it, and I still do.  I try to be as helpful as possible, but when I see the same questions over and over, asked out of what seems to me to be apparent lack of any effort to find a simple answer, I skip that thread.

Some of what makes "old timers" on here angry is the lack of effort to do some of your own research.  The simple answers, that can be found in any basic photography book, being asked again and again make one wonder, 'If you are so into this photography thing, why aren't you doing some research on your own?".

I want to help as much as possible, but I also don't want to spoon feed a bunch of people who don't have the passion to search out answers, and to take some photos and learn via self discovery.

All of that being said, I'm totally in favor of a sticky thread with a link repository.  The first links should be to good photography books, with the recommendation to check your local library.  If everyone on this forum had a basic photography book, or the coveted "Understanding Exposure", 90% of these questions would not get asked.


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## jols (Sep 25, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> As far as the nasty replies, they are immature, unnecessary, and should definitely be stopped. I sit on the fence on the actual issue, however. I remember my humble beginnings in photography, and I do remember asking a fair amount of questions. I also remember doing a fair amount of the work myself. I got books from the library, and I scoured the internet and read every great resource I could find. I went to school. I worked very hard at it, and I still do. I try to be as helpful as possible, but when I see the same questions over and over, asked out of what seems to me to be apparent lack of any effort to find a simple answer, I skip that thread.
> 
> Some of what makes "old timers" on here angry is the lack of effort to do some of your own research. The simple answers, that can be found in any basic photography book, being asked again and again make one wonder, 'If you are so into this photography thing, why aren't you doing some research on your own?".
> 
> ...


 


i ask questions on these type of forums to get the answer i know i could look in a book but thats what the internet is for i thought. 

which is the exact reason why i dont ask questions here and i ask elsewhere because of the reply above.

i dont want to read a book i want answers on the internet. and will get them where i can


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> And for the purists who learned "from the sweat soaked hours in the library", I'd say this: "Aren't you glad that some photog cared enough to write a book to answer all your "stupid" newbe questions?


 
Not sure I'm a purist, though that is how I learned what I know. As an avid book horder I do appreciate the efforts that others have put into authoring their work, though I'm not sure that 'caring' is the prime driver behind it. I'm sure that like most of us, there were financial considerations behind their chosen profession, they may some of the fortunate few though who enjoy what it is they do.


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## terri (Sep 25, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> As far as the nasty replies, they are immature, unnecessary, and should definitely be stopped. I sit on the fence on the actual issue, however. I remember my humble beginnings in photography, and I do remember asking a fair amount of questions. I also remember doing a fair amount of the work myself. I got books from the library, and I scoured the internet and read every great resource I could find. I went to school. I worked very hard at it, and I still do. I try to be as helpful as possible, but when I see the same questions over and over, asked out of what seems to me to be apparent lack of any effort to find a simple answer, I skip that thread.
> 
> Some of what makes "old timers" on here angry is the lack of effort to do some of your own research. The simple answers, that can be found in any basic photography book, being asked again and again make one wonder, 'If you are so into this photography thing, why aren't you doing some research on your own?".
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Well put and spot on, Matt. I wish all those who were coming from the same head space had your powers of reason and could skip a post and move on, before letting a slap come out.


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## Chiller (Sep 25, 2007)

terri said:


> (Those days of seeing your pictures from your old job seem soooo long ago!)
> 
> That many, Carl....?  *I have you and Jeff in mind, for which I am most grateful. Chase doesn't count*. :mrgreen:


 
Holy schmokes...  

  I am not afraid to confess that everything I have learned, has been on the forums, mostly my start at TPF.   I know a lot of the members from back then( wow, I sound like a Grandpa:lmao are gone, but ya can never learn enough.   I have talked to many members that dont have the confidence to post pics, and have wrote me in PMs, or some have asked, how to do stuff.   I am no where near the techinical knowledge of Hertzy, or DMatt, but I still try to help. 
 Im am in no way angry at new members, and welcome them. Besides...the more darksiders the better.  We can take over the forum then.


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## Digital Matt (Sep 25, 2007)

jols said:


> i ask questions on these type of forums to get the answer i know i could look in a book but thats what the internet is for i thought.
> 
> which is the exact reason why i dont ask questions here and i ask elsewhere because of the reply above.
> 
> i dont want to read a book i want answers on the internet. and will get them where i can



Yes, the internet is a fantastic resource, and I encourage you to use it.  I however, am not the internet, nor am I an encyclopedia.  I am a professional who graciously lends his time here to help out fellow passionate photographers, and I'm not happy when I see that I am here to hold hands and spoon feed.  I also encourage you to look for an English  grammar resource.


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## terri (Sep 25, 2007)

> We can take over the forum then.


Don't tempt me....!


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> Yes, the internet is a fantastic resource, and I encourage you to use it. I however, am not the internet, nor am I an encyclopedia. I am a professional who graciously lends his time here to help out fellow passionate photographers, and I'm not happy when I see that I am here to hold hands and spoon feed. I also encourage you to look for an English grammar resource.


 

Matt, no offense, but no one ties you down and forces you to spoon feed people or be their encyclopedia.
Just skip the question.  Maybe someone else doesn't mind spoon feeding.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Luke go into the darkside!!!!!


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## jols (Sep 25, 2007)

thanks elsaspet.

i just think if i dont know the answer to a question or dont want to answer it i dont. its sooooooooooo easy, but some people do let themselves get wound up about nothing. its a bit sad really.

if i do ask a question hall i put on it  'digital matt DO NOT ANSWER'. [cause i dont think id want your help anyway


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## Chiller (Sep 25, 2007)

jols said:


> thanks elsaspet.
> 
> i just think if i dont know the answer to a question or dont want to answer it i dont. its sooooooooooo easy, but some people do let themselves get wound up about nothing. its a bit sad really.
> 
> if i do ask a question hall i put on it 'digital matt DO NOT ANSWER'. [cause i dont think id want your help anyway


 
  I think over time you end up finding the members who you can approach.   I have seen people over the years that come on here, and say a lot, but do not show it in their photos....sort of the all talk no action.   Then there are some that , cause you can not see them reply, come across as harsh, or negative.  Eventually you find the members that you end up , I guess ya can say..."bonding" with.   I am far from a professional, and I have no plans on being a professional.  I just want to have fun taking pics.   This is my release from the craziness of the everyday world.  But I would like to sit back and say...Cool shot....after I take it.  

  I try to answer the techy questions, and if I dont know the answer, I try to find it.   
Sometimes it is just a matter of hanging out, finding out who is who, and go with the flow.  
  ........oh...DMatt has always been a huge influence to me, I just gotta get him in the darkside now.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> I also encourage you to look for an English grammar resource.


 

Ummm, wth?

Not everyone is from the US here.  Furthermore, not everyone has great opportunites to schools and soforth.
What the heck was that?  I mean, really?


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## terri (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Matt, no offense, but no one ties you down and forces you to spoon feed people or be their encyclopedia.
> Just skip the question. Maybe someone else doesn't mind spoon feeding.


To be fair, Matt said exactly that: 





> I try to be as helpful as possible, but when I see the same questions over and over, asked out of what seems to me to be apparent lack of any effort to find a simple answer, I skip that thread.
> 
> Some of what makes "old timers" on here angry is the lack of effort to do some of your own research. The simple answers, that can be found in any basic photography book, being asked again and again make one wonder, 'If you are so into this photography thing, why aren't you doing some research on your own?".


Frankly, it's hard to argue with this approach at times - sometimes I think a lot of it has to do with how questions are presented. There have been members who scatter questions all over the forum, and in a confusing, disjointed kind of way, which does beg the question as to how seriously they are approaching their subject. While many of us are very happy to be as helpful as we can, there have also been some occasions when the poster's response to the answers to his question is to challenge them. 

Also, this IS "just the internet" - and while we all like a fast & easy reply, not everyone who responds to a newbie's question has the background of Hertz. We all know there is massive misinformation out there. It's reasonable to expect those who really want to learn to draw from sources other than photo forums.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Chiller said:


> I think over time you end up finding the members who you can approach. I have seen people over the years that come on here, and say a lot, but do not show it in their photos....sort of the all talk no action. Then there are some that , cause you can not see them reply, come across as harsh, or negative. Eventually you find the members that you end up , I guess ya can say..."bonding" with. I am far from a professional, and I have no plans on being a professional. I just want to have fun taking pics. This is my release from the craziness of the everyday world. But I would like to sit back and say...Cool shot....after I take it.
> 
> I try to answer the techy questions, and if I dont know the answer, I try to find it.
> Sometimes it is just a matter of hanging out, finding out who is who, and go with the flow.
> ........oh...DMatt has always been a huge influence to me, I just gotta get him in the darkside now.


 
Chiller, I think I love you man!  LOL.  I'm going to migrate to Canada!  (More than a few Bu****es would  be more than thrilled, I'm sure!)
I have no idea how you were here before me dangit!  And if you get that damn bear, lets share it.  We'll "bad" out the poor bear.  Or the lucky bear.....it all depends on our warped perceptions.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Not everyone is from the US here.


 
That's true, some of us are actually English, but I won't tell if you don't...


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

terri said:


> To be fair, Matt said exactly that: Frankly, it's hard to argue with this approach at times - sometimes I think a lot of it has to do with how questions are presented. There have been members who scatter questions all over the forum, and in a confusing, disjointed kind of way, which does beg the question as to how seriously they are approaching their subject. While many of us are very happy to be as helpful as we can, there have also been some occasions when the poster's response to the answers to his question is to challenge them.
> 
> Also, this IS "just the internet" - and while we all like a fast & easy reply, not everyone who responds to a newbie's question has the background of Hertz. We all know there is massive misinformation out there. It's reasonable to expect those who really want to learn to draw from sources other than photo forums.


 
You are right Terri, that is what he said. I misunderstood.
But I still don't understand why it's such a burden. You helped me. A lot. Noone asked you to, but there you were with guns blazing killer advice.
I don't think you have any idea how much you shaped me. But you did. I've mentioned it over and over and over again. It's not just a "today because it's convenient for my argument" thing.
My whole point is that, dang, if I didn't have those helping hands, I'd be nowhere. I was sooooo fortunate not to get pommelled for my plethera of stupid questions. I asked, and was answered. Simple.
I was illiterate in photography, the settings, the grammer, all that stuff, but I knew enough to know who to look too before getting beaten back by the bullies.


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## Chiller (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Chiller, I think I love you man! LOL. I'm going to migrate to Canada! (More than a few Bu****es would be more than thrilled, I'm sure!)
> I have no idea how you were here before me dangit! And if you get that damn bear, lets share it. We'll "bad" out the poor bear. Or the lucky bear.....it all depends on our warped perceptions.


 
Thanks chicklette.   ......:hug:: 

 Im just wondering if the bear wants to say...y'all....or Eh? :lmao::lmao:


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Chiller said:


> Thanks chicklette. ......:hug::
> 
> Im just wondering if the bear wants to say...y'all....or Eh? :lmao::lmao:


 
He wants to say "eh". For sure.


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## TCimages (Sep 25, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> Yes, the internet is a fantastic resource, and I encourage you to use it. I however, am not the internet, nor am I an encyclopedia. I am a professional who graciously lends his time here to help out fellow passionate photographers, and I'm not happy when I see that I am here to hold hands and spoon feed. I also encourage you to look for an English grammar resource.


 
This is exactly the type of unprofessional comments that are the root of the problem. I can't imagine why you would want to personally attack someones grammer and be so condescending. 

Skip the post and let someone else answer the question.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

TC- exactly.
Unfortunately it's worse for the mods.  They are the "voice" of the people here a lot of the time.
When a beginner see's moderators doing stuff like calling another person illiterate, it makes it scary for that new person to say something.
I know it's a double standard, but we look up to our leaders and rely on them more than others.  

Can you believe it?  I'm about to paraphrase Ayn Ryan.  One of the few times in her life she knew what she was talking about.

"If you can't argue the question in a reasonable fashion, call the debator a queer.  Then you won't have to argue reasonably for the rest of the debate".


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## Big Mike (Sep 25, 2007)

Mods are people too...they have their good days and their not-so-good days.

Most of the mods & members here are pretty good about being very helpful to 'newbies'...but it can be trying when a question is asked for the 1000th time.  Also, the answers to about 80% of the questions that get asked, can be found by searching the forum, or failing that...Google will turn up answers to just about anything.  It's especially frustrating when it's clear that someone has not even tried to find the answer themselves.

I don't know who said it...but it was something like this...."God gave you two ears and only one mouth...so you should do twice as much listening as talking".  I think the same principle can apply to forums.  People should do twice as much reading/research than questions they ask.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Big Mike said:


> Mods are people too...they have their good days and their not-so-good days.
> 
> Most of the mods & members here are pretty good about being very helpful to 'newbies'...but it can be trying when a question is asked for the 1000th time. Also, the answers to about 80% of the questions that get asked, can be found by searching the forum, or failing that...Google will turn up answers to just about anything. It's especially frustrating when it's clear that someone has not even tried to find the answer themselves.
> 
> I don't know who said it...but it was something like this...."God gave you two ears and only one mouth...so you should do twice as much listening as talking". I think the same principle can apply to forums. People should do twice as much reading/research than questions they ask.


 
Mike,
I'm an old chick, and I had all kinds of jobs in my past. One of them was a Homicide Investigor for Wise County, TX.  ( I spent almost a decade as a police officer).
Yeah, I had my bad days, obviously, but I wasn't allowed to go around town telling people they were illeterate hicks.
Can you visualize the 10 oclock news here?
So why couldn't I say it when other people said it all the time. Because I was held to a higher standard than the ordinary going to work crowd.
Police Officers are leaders to most in the community. This is a community as well. The mods are our police officers.
Yeah, they have bad days, but the best form would to come back quickly and apologize their butt off for calling ANY member of the community, illiterate. And if the Sheriff didn't force them to, next year he'd be looking for re-election.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Big Mike said:


> Most of the mods & members here are pretty good about being very helpful to 'newbies'...but it can be trying when a question is asked for the 1000th time. Also, the answers to about 80% of the questions that get asked, can be found by searching the forum, or failing that...Google will turn up answers to just about anything. It's especially frustrating when it's clear that someone has not even tried to find the answer themselves.
> 
> .


 

No one asked that the mods be the model for answering all questions.  Matt owes this poster a huge apology IMO.


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## Mike Jordan (Sep 25, 2007)

Elsapet, where in the world are you seeing all these bad guys you keep going on about?  I keep looking around, even looked behind some of the posts and under the carpets and other than one guy I've seen that went a bit off the handle over nothing, I'm just not seeing what you are talking about.  If I was a newbie reading the couple of threads you have been posting on about how bad the attitudes on here were, I might just decide the place wasn't worth getting to know.  

I guess if you kick enough rocks, there are bound to be a few bugs come scurring out... but I've just never found it productive to keep kicking the rocks... all it does is create sore toes.

Just an observation. 


Mike


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## GoM (Sep 25, 2007)

Man, in the forum index, this thread appears as just "Pot calling..."

can certainly say I thought it was about something else.

can certainly say I came running because of it.

Um.

Anyway...


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## terri (Sep 25, 2007)

GoM said:


> Man, in the forum index, this thread appears as just "Pot calling..."
> 
> can't say I thought it was about something else.
> 
> ...


   I like your humor!


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## GoM (Sep 25, 2007)

haha and your post made me realize a grammatical error. We all win!


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## Christina (Sep 26, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Ummm, wth?
> 
> Not everyone is from the US here. Furthermore, not everyone has great opportunites to schools and soforth.
> What the heck was that? I mean, really?


 
kinda just proved the point of this particular thread....


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## jols (Sep 26, 2007)

if some of the mods dont like answering 'newbie' questions and tell them that the answer can be found by just looking at the forums or google it and it can be found, why on earth do u accept new members in.  why dont all of you moaners that dont like to help go away and start your own forum.:lmao:


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## photogoddess (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm an 'old timer' here. Not from 2003 but pretty darn close.  I pop in here and there to check up on old friends, say hi and give or get a bit of advice or feedback. There are so many new faces here and that's a good thing. However  in the little bit of time that I do have to check in here, I too have noticed a bit of snipping. Example... There's a thread in the Business district about HDR. Now I'm a working photographer and an admin on a professional photographer's forum (and a former moderator here) so I'd like to think that I'm pretty up on things. Apparently not so much as I had to ask what HDR is. The response one member posted took far longer to prod me off to Google for a search than it would have taken to simply type the literal three word answer - High Dynamic Range. 

I totally understand some members not wanting to spoon feed others. Personally, I like helping out the newbies - I was one myself at one time and was always incredibly grateful for the help I received from 'old timers' in the industry. 

I learned a valuable lesson growing up... my parents always said; If you don't have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself. Perhaps TPF would be a better place if people could just step away from the keyboard when they feel that snippy edge coming on. layball:


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

jols said:


> if some of the mods dont like answering 'newbie' questions and tell them that the answer can be found by just looking at the forums or google it and it can be found, why on earth do u accept new members in. why dont all of you moaners that dont like to help go away and start your own forum.:lmao:


 
Who of the MODS has shown to you personally they don't like to answer newbie questions, I wonder? Of the MODS, not of the members. I really would like to know. 

Everyone here should think and think again before they lash out with whatever they say. Everyone. Long-standing members, older members (agewise), very young members, newbie members, mods ... just everyone. 

And depending on the theme of the discussion going on it might be witty to post a very spontaneous reply (the Off Topics and some of the threads going on there spring to mind), or it might be wiser to stop and think first. 

In general...


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## Hertz van Rental (Sep 26, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> being superior, doesn't help any of us



It works for me :mrgreen:


PS As an ex-teacher of Photography I would say that if you truly want to help people and 'teach' them then you have to develop patience. If they don't understand something it is probably not their fault. Manuals and books are written by people who know what they mean so they assume the reader does, and this can make things obscure. If you explain something and the person doesn't comprehend then you are at fault for not pitching it in a way they can comprehend. Explain a different way.
Bottom line: If you truly want to help people then learn patience and perseverance. You probnably didn't find it that easy when you were learning so why should anyone else? 
Oh, and keep the ego indoors


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 26, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> PS As an ex-teacher of Photography I would say that if you truly want to help people and 'teach' them then you have to develop patience. If they don't understand something it is probably not their fault. Manuals and books are written by people who know what they mean so they assume the reader does, and this can make things obscure. If you explain something and the person doesn't comprehend then you are at fault for not pitching it in a way they can comprehend. Explain a different way.
> Bottom line: If you truly want to help people then learn patience and perseverance. You probnably didn't find it that easy when you were learning so why should anyone else?
> Oh, and keep the ego indoors


 
I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying, could you explain it for me again? :lmao:


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## Battou (Sep 26, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Oh, and keep the ego indoors



Um....yeah...I fell into one of those reasently :banghead: It applies to noobies too. 


Mike Jordan said:


> Elsapet, where in the world are you seeing all these bad guys you keep going on about?  I keep looking around, even looked behind some of the posts and under the carpets and other than one guy I've seen that went a bit off the handle over nothing, I'm just not seeing what you are talking about.



I don't to be rude about it but here is a perfect example:
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94720

Yes, I did literally call the user ignorant and arrogant and I will have nothing more to do with this individual as they obviously believe they are already superior. When a new user comes onto a forum thinking they already know the rules and then show blatantly they don't, some one has to step forward and let them know that before it gets out of hand. When it happens they respond with a childish "you're not the boss of me, GTFO", That is one of the few major pet-peeves of mine, There is no such thing as automatic respect no mater where you are or what you are. You show respect if you expect to get respect there, is no other way. I no doubt lost some of what little respect I have earned here with that little outburst, but that is OK, I know my place and I stepped out of it and it's what I get. That is all there is to it. 
*EDIT* in hind sight I was incorrect as most forums I visit "forum leaders are set how I mentioned" *END EDIT*

Elsaspet makes the argument to quit being stupid and/or nasty, witch, sadly will inevitably be lost, and I honestly believe she knows that. This is the internet there will always be the stupids and the smarts, there is no way around it. The argument serves to bring it to the attention of the users, be they bullies who need to hold there tongue a little better when a pet-peeve is breached or noobies who could show a little more effort. This attention makes users think of the options at hand when dealing with one or the other. Those options are bash them, ignore them, or educate them. 

Though the argument to get rid of comments from the nasty pricks and ignorant dum dums on the internet is unattainable, Hopefully users will realize that the ignorance displayed on internet is not always their fault and some times it's just as ignorant to deal with ignorance in a demeaning manor. Ultimately reducing the superiority complex across the board, in other words keeping users honest. It's a some what developed Sociological and Psychological thought process, over inflate an existing issue and display an unattainable goal to reach the desired goal. 

In this case the goal (I think, I could be wrong) is just because someone says something stupid or asks a question that the answer to witch is readily available, dose not necessarily make them stupid, they may just be looking for information from a reliable source. It's up to the user reading the request to keep a more open and accepting mind, to decide whether or not they want to help, that one can just ignore it if they so please and that it is stupid to assume that one is stupid. On the other end of the spectrum the ideology is that maybe that new guy who just signed up to ask a question to think twice as to just how simple the question sounds and maybe the desired answer is some where out in the open and that maybe they should first take a look.

If my assessment is incorrect, please say so, as I am a new guy my self and likely missed a number of uncalled for reactions.


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## Hertz van Rental (Sep 26, 2007)

Chris of Arabia said:


> I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying, could you explain it for me again? :lmao:



Of course I can. I've worked with 'special needs' so I understand your difficulties. :lmao:

To paraphrase:
Them that can, do - them that can't, should do anything just as long as they don't try to teach. 

Does that help? :mrgreen:


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## zendianah (Sep 26, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Of course I can. I've worked with 'special needs' so I understand your difficulties. :lmao:
> 
> To paraphrase:
> Them that can, do - them that can't, should do anything just as long as they don't try to teach.
> ...


 

Ouch....  

You guys crack me up.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 26, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Of course I can. I've worked with 'special needs' so I understand your difficulties. :lmao:
> 
> To paraphrase:
> Them that can, do - them that can't, should do anything just as long as they don't try to teach.
> ...


 
*****!


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## The_Traveler (Sep 26, 2007)

jols said:


> i ask questions on these type of forums to get the answer i know i could look in a book but thats what the internet is for i thought.
> 
> which is the exact reason why i dont ask questions here and i ask elsewhere because of the reply above.
> 
> i dont want to read a book i want answers on the internet. and will get them where i can



The Internet is a huge expansive library of information. If you have a unique question that that needs an answer that is not easily found, than the Internet  is wonderful because you can find an actual person to point you to a source for the answer or even actually answer the question for you.  

but, no, the Internet is not a collection of individuals just sitting around waiting to do all the work for you. That is called your home.


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## The_Traveler (Sep 26, 2007)

jols said:


> if some of the mods dont like answering 'newbie' questions and tell them that the answer can be found by just looking at the forums or google it and it can be found, why on earth do u accept new members in.  why dont all of you moaners that dont like to help go away and start your own forum.:lmao:



This is an intelligent issue that deserves to be addressed.

We want new members who will eventually contribute not just come in to take info and go away.

If a newbie asks a question for which there are already lots of well-discussed answers that can be found by a little searching in the Forum and is directed to look it up, three things happen. 

1) The newbie is learning how to find information rather than depending on others for everything thus empowering him or herself. They will become better photographers and members.

2) The more experienced people who know the answers have the time and effort to spend on harder or more interesting questions thus keeping them involved in the Forum.

3) There is much less Forum effort used in answering the one-question poster who comes for info and then goes away.


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## jols (Sep 26, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> The Internet is a huge expansive library of information. If you have a unique question that that needs an answer that is not easily found, than the Internet is wonderful because you can find an actual person to point you to a source for the answer or even actually answer the question for you.
> 
> but, no, the Internet is not a collection of individuals just sitting around waiting to do all the work for you. That is called your home.


 


how many times does it have to be said. nobody is forced to answer any question posted.
if you do not wish to answer a question just dont answer it 

good god !!!!!!  you guys are hard work


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

Jols, you are right with your latest remark, but please expand for me on the one you did earlier, on the mods not liking newbies to ask, and who of us ever expressed their dislike. I really want to know (I have asked this earlier, but as usual, my remarks get totally ignored).


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## jols (Sep 26, 2007)

Big Mike said:


> Mods are people too...they have their good days and their not-so-good days.
> 
> Most of the mods & members here are pretty good about being very helpful to 'newbies'...but it can be trying when a question is asked for the 1000th time. Also, the answers to about 80% of the questions that get asked, can be found by searching the forum, or failing that...Google will turn up answers to just about anything. It's especially frustrating when it's clear that someone has not even tried to find the answer themselves.
> 
> I don't know who said it...but it was something like this...."God gave you two ears and only one mouth...so you should do twice as much listening as talking". I think the same principle can apply to forums. People should do twice as much reading/research than questions they ask.


 

this was a post by a mod and i would nt like to post a question if he was on line and having a bad day.

that is why i dont intend to have much activity in here and do all my pic posting and questions elsewhere.

this is the only thread here i have posted on i think.


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

Ah. You really do NOT know our Big Mike then.
Best meet people first, and really MEET them, and give them a chance, before you judge by ONE reply only. You are really not doing our Big Mike ANY justice here. Not at all.

And if you only want to rant in this thread but do your pic posting elsewhere, then I tend to believe you are only a troll and trolling is not allowed and that might mean that we have to take action. Think about it. You want to be a member of our community or you don't? If you want to troll ... we'll show you the way.


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## jols (Sep 26, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> Ah. You really do NOT know our Big Mike then.
> Best meet people first, and really MEET them, and give them a chance, before you judge by ONE reply only. You are really not doing our Big Mike ANY justice here. Not at all.


 

i am really sory if i read the reply out of context. but i do go by first impressions and as as im not likely to meet any of you guys thats all i have to go on.
you always come across as a nice person so my first impression of you is that your nice [but then again you could be a serial killer lol]

you have me thinking now


just read the last bit of your post and i would like to carry on reading this forum so i wont post on this thread anymore.
and im not ranting just commenting


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## Chiller (Sep 26, 2007)

Chiller said:


> *I think over time you end up finding the members who you can approach*. I have seen people over the years that come on here, and say a lot, but do not show it in their photos....sort of the all talk no action. Then there are some that , *cause you can not see them reply, come across as harsh, or negative.* *Eventually you find the members that you end up , I guess ya can say..."bonding" with*. I am far from a professional, and I have no plans on being a professional. I just want to have fun taking pics. This is my release from the craziness of the everyday world. But I would like to sit back and say...Cool shot....after I take it.
> 
> I try to answer the techy questions, and if I dont know the answer, I try to find it.
> Sometimes it is just a matter of hanging out, finding out who is who, and go with the flow.
> ........oh...DMatt has always been a huge influence to me, I just gotta get him in the darkside now.


 

To quote Chiller... If you hang out long enough, you will meet people who you will become closer with.  Big M is right on...and like anyone, "people" have bad days, whether you are a Mod or a just a member.  Mod is just a title.
 I think if you can take the time to add a negative response, why not use that time to make a positive reply instead.  Would make the place a whole lot better. 
  I have never seen a mod snap on here, and I have been here longer then most Mods...I gotta keep them in line. :lmao::lmao:, or I can ban them.   Sure there will be people that join with egos, attitudes, and all...but.....  Gheesh...there are 15000 or so personalities on here, and all will not get along, but it still deserves a good try.


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

Take forums such as this one like a big cocktail party.
You walk into a room already full of people and don't know anyone.
You somehow get in conversation with some. 
You are a stranger, they are strangers.
Would you always judge them by your very first impression then? Would you not talk a little and see if you can find out more about them? 
The same happens here.
Some have been members for 3 - 4 years, and lo and behold, have even meanwhile met in person. This is POSSIBLE. And has happened.

And your very own "serial killer" is actually inviting to come to a big, one-week-long TPF meet-up in her little place in Germany next year in May, so there is one MORE chance for people of our little "internet cocktail party" to meet in person. So don't exclude that chance. (I might plan to kill them all, though, who knows???)

Anyhow.
Always behave on a forum such as this (which for many is a very nice community, mind you) as you would with real people. We ARE real people (and I can assure you that most of them are REALLY NICE people, too!)


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## jols (Sep 26, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> Take forums such as this one like a big cocktail party.
> You walk into a room already full of people and don't know anyone.
> You somehow get in conversation with some.
> You are a stranger, they are strangers.
> ...


 


good points [and this is my last word ha ha ]

i will hang around and if i d hear about a mass murder it might get me thinking lol

see you somewhere on another post  


all my love 

jols


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## terri (Sep 26, 2007)

> (I might plan to kill them all, though, who knows???)


:shock:

Can't you just ban them....? 

Really, she just wants to steal their cameras while they are asleep.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 26, 2007)

terri said:


> :shock:
> 
> Can't you just ban them....?
> 
> Really, she just wants to steal their cameras while they are asleep.


 
Judging by the number of people who've said they're going, if Corinna did the deed, that would only leave the spammers on here - who's going to look after them then?


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

Ach, some of the lenses that might arrive at little Lauenbrück might do, too, if those should simply get "forgotten" here, like those that our lost prophet might bring or so   !

And Terri, you are one of the few who know me in person, and you obviously SURVIVED our meet-up in DC! Wow!


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## Chiller (Sep 26, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> And your very own *"serial killer"* is actually inviting to come to a big, one-week-long TPF meet-up in her little place in Germany next year in May, so there is one MORE chance for people of our little "internet cocktail party" to meet in person. So don't exclude that chance. (I might plan to kill them all, though, who knows???)


 
Coooooorrrrrrrrrrrinna... I had no idea.  Your a darksider. :hugs:


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## LaFoto (Sep 26, 2007)

Chiller said:


> :hugs:


 

This alone was worth suggesting I *might be* one. 







 For you, Chiller.


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## Chiller (Sep 26, 2007)

Your makin me wanna double up on the lottery tickets so I can get a plane ticket. 
 A kissing serial killer....woo hooo...



LaFoto said:


> This alone was worth suggesting I *might be* one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mike Jordan (Sep 26, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Of course I can. I've worked with 'special needs' so I understand your difficulties. :lmao:
> 
> To paraphrase:
> Them that can, do - them that can't, should do anything just as long as they don't try to teach.
> ...


 
 Actually there are a lot of people that can teach very well, even though they themselves might not be able to demonstrate as well as what others can do.   It takes a special ability to be able to take something that is complex or hard to understand by some and express it in a way that those people can understand.  

I've taught a lot of people over the years that once they grasp what it is I'm teaching, they have gone way beyound my talent and ability. 

While the term "Those that do, do and those that can't, teach" is used mostly in a derogatory or demeaning way, there is a lot of truth to the saying. 

Mike


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## terri (Sep 26, 2007)

Chiller said:


> Your makin me wanna double up on the lottery tickets so I can get a plane ticket.
> A kissing serial killer....woo hooo...


Chiller's idea of a dream date....  oh, you crack me up!


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## Chiller (Sep 26, 2007)

terri said:


> Chiller's idea of a dream date....  oh, you crack me up!


 
pssssssst...terri...there are five of me remember. :lmao:


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## terri (Sep 26, 2007)

Chiller said:


> pssssssst...terri...there are five of me remember. :lmao:


Of course!    How careless of me.


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## wildmaven (Sep 26, 2007)

The question has been asked as to why a new member doesn't just look something up on the internet or in a book and, unless it's due to laziness (which can happen, granted), the answer is most likely one of the following:

1. They don't know where to look. Sometimes new members are also new to the internet and don't KNOW how to use a search engine properly to get better results. Snapping at them doesn't show them how to do it, does it?

2. They have heard from friends that this is a great place and they'll find good help here. Snapping at them destroys that reputation.

3. They think that forums are places to ask for help. Hm. How could that be? "Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Don&#8217;t be shy! Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here!" Snapping at them makes them wonder exactly where they went wrong. 

4. They want to hear an answer from a real person, who has actual experience with the technique/camera/doodad in question. Snapping at them will just send them to another forum. 

Marian


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## Hertz van Rental (Sep 26, 2007)

Mike Jordan said:


> Actually there are a lot of people that can teach very well



And there are a lot who can't but they get promoted into management.
I was a Head of Faculty so I know what I'm talking about. :lmao:


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## zendianah (Sep 26, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> The question has been asked as to why a new member doesn't just look something up on the internet or in a book and, unless it's due to laziness (which can happen, granted), the answer is most likely one of the following:
> 
> 1. They don't know where to look. Sometimes new members are also new to the internet and don't KNOW how to use a search engine properly to get better results. Snapping at them doesn't show them how to do it, does it?
> 
> ...


 

Well said Marian.

Dianah


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

"Pot Calling"
LOL.
Yep.

I love the way this thread has turned out.  It's been a great sounding board for all types of opinions and thoughts.
Groovy Man.  Pot Calling. LOL


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## Hertz van Rental (Oct 1, 2007)

And just what have you been smoking?


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Umm nothing sir.  It's not mine.  Someone left it in my car.  I think her name was Jane Smith, but I don't know for sure.  Just someone I drove to church.  A friend of my poor granny, who is in the hospital.  Poor lady forgot her own name, so bother asking her.


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## photogoddess (Oct 2, 2007)

As usual... we digress...


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## Hertz van Rental (Oct 2, 2007)

photogoddess said:


> As usual... we digress...



Is that, like, a female grave digger?


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## Chiller (Oct 2, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> Is that, like, a female grave digger?


 

Grave digger...did somebody ask for a grave digger. :lmao:


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## Hertz van Rental (Oct 2, 2007)

Chiller said:


> Grave digger...did somebody ask for a grave digger. :lmao:



We were actually after a serious Australian but you'll do.


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## Battou (Oct 2, 2007)

Chiller said:


> Grave digger...did somebody ask for a grave digger. :lmao:


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## Chiller (Oct 2, 2007)

:lmao::lmao::lmao:​


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## Hertz van Rental (Oct 3, 2007)

I think that one is dead.


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