# why does no one have anything good to say?



## iPhoto17 (Jun 8, 2012)

whenever i post anything for C&C everyone focuses on the bad, i understand how important it is to know what needs to be fixed and corrected but to not say anything about a photo is good whatsoever is just insulting in my opinion.

its this that has shied me away from this for quite some time in search of more supportive ways to improve my skills


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## Ernicus (Jun 8, 2012)

I think it's a matter of perspective.  I see a lot of good here.  So much so that it is why I stay.

I like the criticism, it's how I grow.  Also, I know that when the time comes that I get a good comment...it will be genuine and a sign of my improvement.  Sure there are some that could maybe use a lesson or two in tact...but don't take it personally.  Take everything in as a whole, not a part.  

I am not here to get my ego stroked...that is what facebook if for, I want to know the bad so I can improve.  To me, if all I ever get is bad comments...then I'm not improving...and I am not learning or using what is told to me.

Just my opinion.  Hope it sheds some hope for you.  This is a great place to truly learn.

I also have to say, to say that "no one has anything good to say" is just as detrimental as those who lack tact.  There is plenty of good being said...


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 8, 2012)

I usually just come back with better stuff.  For some reason these people dont say anything when I got something good.  They are waiting for me to post something really bad I think.


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## iPhoto17 (Jun 8, 2012)

i like the criticism as well, but i can only take so much bad criticism and bad comments that it just deters to not even come back to the site and almost not even pick up my camera anymore, sure ive improved myself over the 8 or so years ive been shooting, i would like to know the things im doing right from time to time


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## iPhoto17 (Jun 8, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> I usually just come back with better stuff.  For some reason these people dont say anything when I got something good.  They are waiting for me to post something really bad I think.



i have noticed this a lot as well, all the posts that actually have great pictures dont have comments at all, its all the bad stuff that people like to pick apart with rude degrading comments.

whatever happened to "if you have nothing good to say dont say anything at all" or something like that


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## charlie76 (Jun 8, 2012)

Because its a C&C forum?  the second C stands for criticism


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## iPhoto17 (Jun 8, 2012)

criticism doesnt always have to be bad, criticism focuses on many parts of a piece of art, not just whats bad, 3 of my art classes in high school focused heavily on criticism


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## unpopular (Jun 8, 2012)

Because you should know what's good about what you're doing, otherwise you wouldn't have done it.


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## Ernicus (Jun 8, 2012)

Maybe it's a case of "no news is good news"  so if you get a post with nothing...then by default it's good.  lol.  

or really really boring...lol.


criticism is about what's "bad", otherwise it would be called praise.  I had this discussion with someone earlier, and sure it's just my opinion...but it seems as though people as of late...(not directing at you) just want an ego stroking.  To me its just silly.  People need to put on their big boy pants and just learn from it.  Also remember, just because someone says something....doesn't mean it's true.

I am not trying to be rude, but I must say...if peoples comments on here make you want to, or even think about, not picking up your camera anymore as you stated above...then there are other issues at hand that I won't get into on here.  There is not a single thing, or a thousand things, that anyone can say on a website to affect my life so much as to stop doing what I love to do.  Man up.

Now my advice/comments in there is very straight forward, no punches pulled, and to the point...and much like criticism is...and seeing how you feel about criticism on here based on your posts...I would assume you would tag me and my comments as rude or uncool.  I hope you don't.  I hope you can honestly see what it is that I'm saying.  I do see what you're saying, so don't think I dont...like I said..some folks on here can indeed learn tact.  Other than that, it is what it is.  Good advice/criticism.

...maybe use P&W (praise and worship) instead of C&C in the title.  (hint: that was sarcasm  ;-)  )


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## charlie76 (Jun 8, 2012)

Refer to the guys comment above.


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## Dillard (Jun 8, 2012)

You'll learn quickly that the criticisms will make you a better photographer. Constant "Well dones" provide a sense of false approval. If work is good, you will earn praise. If not, well then you will have more suggestions then you could imagine. Have a tough skin my friend, and your work will improve by leaps and bounds!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 9, 2012)

Consider the sources of the praise you get as well. Sometimes praise comes from someone who is inexperienced themselves. How does that help you, other than making you feel good and reinforcing possibly bad technique?


If every image you post, you only get "it's out of focus", that should clue you in on something to work on.
Once you no longer get those comments, because you mastered focus, then it might be another glaring issue, which would again tell you what you need to work on. Strive to master that now.

If you keep getting told you subject is not interest, well, work on that!

If you want candy coating, go buy some M&M's.
If you want to know what you need to work on, ask for C&C.

Some people believe in the praise sandwich, some don't. 
You are getting free advice. You get what you pay for.

Study on your own. After all you should be driven by your desire.

I have customers who never tell me I did a good job. But I know when I do a good job and when my work is flawed. 
There are plenty of other jewelers work I look at and know what I have to strive for, and how far away I am from achieving it.

The same holds true for photography. I know where I stand, and how far I need to go.
You need to develop that whitin yourself as well.

If you seek praise, join Flickr groups and post your work. You'll get all kinds of glittery hearts and stars.
Come back here for a reality check.


And you know what they say! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Join FroKnowsPhoto.com too. It's nearly in their rules that you can't be negative.


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## iPhoto17 (Jun 9, 2012)

thank emicus and jeweler for shedding some more light on this subject


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## Fred Berg (Jun 9, 2012)

Well, I agree in general with the view that sugar-coated commentary isn't going to do much to actually help address any problematic areas in a person's work; however, I also feel that to supply criticism which is all negative, no matter how well intended and constructive it might be, will only come across as destructive and demotivating.

Just like when you clear someone out at cards, you should always leave them with their bus fare home. If there really is nothing good or positive that can be added _to help the medicine go down whilst giving it to them as it really is_, then that will only leave a bad taste in the mouth and be very off putting.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Jun 9, 2012)

I think if you simply request what is specifically good about the image, and what is specifically bad, most will give you both. The criticism is intended to help you improve and avoid mistakes in the future.


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## Solarflare (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm just a newbie and I'm not planning to ever get professional, so what good would a praise from me do ?

If I point something out, its probably obvious, and I might be wrong on top.


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## gsgary (Jun 9, 2012)

It's a bit like going into the army, they go in all cocky but the army knock them down and build them back up much stronger


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## shefjr (Jun 9, 2012)

I appreciate the criticism from members here. Don't look at it as "bad", look at it as people taking the time to look at your work and give you help on how to improve your technique. It's all about perspective.


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## Patriot (Jun 9, 2012)

The only thing I dont like about forums is when a picture is posted it will get 70-100 lookthroughs without one comment. If you lokked at the pictures at least leave some form of comment. 

I try to leave something if I took the time to look at it. Im not good enough to judge photo so I try to comment on something simple.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 9, 2012)

I think that c/c stands for _comment and critique _rather than criticism.
_critique_ is generally used when referring to an analysis of a single or small group of subjects while criticism is more generally used for an overview of an artist's  work in general terms that relate it to the rest of the field.

Since it seems that you are referring to the responses you particularly are getting, I went back and looked at your last few postings. 
You are still in the stage where you snap away at something, the camera takes the pictures and you seem to think that is all there is to it.
When you have gotten negative remarks, there doesn't seem to be any attempt to use that critique to go back and improve the picture so you actually use and embed the ideas in your head.

There is more to photography then just pressing a button, there has to be some effort and work on the part of the photographer to create something interesting, unusual or beautiful that other people would be interested in seeing.

Read a book on composition, look carefully at other decent pictures here and see the c/c they get and then try to emulate them.


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## bratkinson (Jun 9, 2012)

Although I've never posted anything here, I thoroughly enjoy looking at others' work and consider each of the usually negative comments such as underexposed, out of focus, whatever. Even though it's not my pictures, it's giving me a wealth of info on what I need to look for to improve my own work. 

After 30+ years doing mostly outdoor 35mm photography (trains, mostly), I've moved indoors and am continually surprised by the myriad of details that I tend to overlook before I press the button, only to be disappointed when I get a good look at it on my computer screen. Only by actually seeing my own mistakes as well as those of others am I starting to recognize a 'tricky' situation and make an attempt to handle it better than I did previously. So, yes, the criticisms flying around here are a great help.  And certainly, the OPs looking for C&C on a picture or two have/should/will need thick skin.  But more importantly, hopefully, they will "grow" as well, rather than go away and sulk somewhere...

As for why haven't I posted a few for C&C???...perhaps at a later date, when I have more time.


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## HughGuessWho (Jun 9, 2012)

C&C can include what is wrong with a picture as well as what's RIGHT with picture. I think what the OPs point is that many only point out the "bad". Everyone needs to hear both. But, that's how life is. People focus on the bad. If someone has a bad experience in a restaurant they will often complain. However if everything is good, the seldom say a thing.
OP, I understand your point, but expect the comments to be 90% negative because that's just how it is. However, that doesn't mean that your is bad. Take the negative comments and try to improve upon them.
Keep shootin'


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## rdubb1031 (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm glad someone else feels this way. I read a post the other day where the critic called the photo "bad".  Now don't get me wrong, the photo needed work but I must have missed where that person wrote the rules on photography and could call it that.  My point being that giving your feedback both good and bad but remember that photography is subjective, as is all art.  Help the person don't just bash them.  I've about come to the point where I hate reading this commentary as its going to discourage people from improving rather than encourage.  I personally feel that many people on these types of forums are not professionals but the every day joe looking to improve so we can make lasting memories.  So help me do that don't just kick me while I'm down to make yourself feel superior.  

Thanks OPfor posting this.


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## KenC (Jun 9, 2012)

It's certainly true that some people on here make rude comments, often without offering anything constructive, but posting on the internet is sort of like going down the street and asking everyone you meet.  Some of them are going to be unpleasant people you don't want to deal with.  The only way to handle this, other than just not posting on here at all, is to ignore the unhelpful comments and get what you can from the constructive ones.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 9, 2012)

rdubb1031 said:


> I'm glad someone else feels this way. I read a post the other day where the critic called the photo "bad".  Now don't get me wrong, the photo needed work but I must have missed where that person wrote the rules on photography and could call it that.  My point being that giving your feedback both good and bad but remember that photography is subjective, as is all art.  Help the person don't just bash them.  I've about come to the point where I hate reading this commentary as its going to discourage people from improving rather than encourage.  I personally feel that many people on these types of forums are not professionals but the every day joe looking to improve so we can make lasting memories.  So help me do that don't just kick me while I'm down to make yourself feel superior.
> 
> Thanks OPfor posting this.



The funny thing is, we have this discussion about once a month and nothing changes. 

It's a board of mixed knowledge.

Along with all the seemingly negative comments, there are a LOT of positive comments from people who don't really know what they are talking about.
I could point to several recent threads where an image got all glowing reviews, yet the images were boring, mundane, and "common". And in that case some of us just shake our head rather than reply. Now, how is THAT helpful?

How does a member seperate the reply from the inexperienced person who says "great composition!"  to yet another top down centered flower? That comment will reinforce the boring, everyday perspective, that is common with those who know nothing about composition. But hey, at least it was positive, right?

What if somebody is just "bad" and is never going to "get it"? Why is that never a possibility in this world?
What about people who will take ten years to achieve what someone else picked up in one year? We are not all equals at everything.

The Traveler put it best with his comment "Art is Hard". 
It is. 
And some, to quote EnVogue, "Ain't never gonna get it."
That's a fact.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 9, 2012)

KenC said:


> It's certainly true that some people on here make rude comments, often without offering anything constructive, but posting on the internet is sort of like going down the street and asking everyone you meet.  Some of them are going to be unpleasant people you don't want to deal with.  The only way to handle this, other than just not posting on here at all, is to ignore the unhelpful comments and get what you can from the constructive ones.



But negative comments are most often constructive, and on the flip side positive comments can also be destructive, empty, and meaningless.


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## 480sparky (Jun 9, 2012)

I'd say it's because what is wrong with an image is what grabs the viewer's attention the most.

An image can have _perfect_ white balance, exposure, timing, saturation, composition and sharpness.... but if it's out-of-focus, that's gonna smack the viewer in the face.

So if you were to post that 'perfect-except-for-focus' shot, and you get a string of "OOF", "Yeah, what she said", "THAT ^^^", +1", "Yep.....", then it's safe to assume all else is good.


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## shefjr (Jun 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> How does a member seperate the reply from the inexperienced person who says "great composition!"  to yet another top down centered flower?



When I joined I sat back for the first several months and read the c&c of others photos to see who gave solid c&c. From doing that I have my own list (in my mind not literal) of photogs on TPF who I have a higher level of respect for. I'm constantly doing this and reevaluating people here. It has helped me to critically look at my own work which still has a long way to go. Sometimes I feel I'm the "never gonna get it" type. Lol :sighs loudly:


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## mishele (Jun 9, 2012)

Is it time for another coddling thread? lol


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 9, 2012)

Why is failure not an option?

I mean we all can't be masters of everything, can we?

Be proud of honest effort and move on to something else.
If you enjoy taking pictures, then simply continue to enjoy taking pictures!
If you are looking sell your work and be praised for your awesome skills, well, then, be prepared to be judged. 


Its one thing to take pictures for eight years. It's another to study art for 8 years.
Which is gonna make the better photographer?


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 9, 2012)

The fact is, people only leave comments when:
1. the photos are really bad
2. the photos are really good
3. posted by a really active member
4. very interesting photo (even if it is poorly shot)


If your photo is not in these category, forget it.  You are lucky if you get 5 comments.


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## rdubb1031 (Jun 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> The funny thing is, we have this discussion about once a month and nothing changes.
> 
> It's a board of mixed knowledge.
> 
> ...



While I agree that not every picture is a picaso I'm trying to figure out why you have the almighty power to claim someone else's opinion to be wrong?  The one post that got me upset was a member writing "this photo should never have been posted" or something to that affect.  I'm sorry, but this pphoto may not have been to his standard however it may be the best that person had at the time.  To act as if he has final opinion is BS.  Point out where improvement is needed but leave your commentary out of it.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean someone else might.


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## unpopular (Jun 9, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> The fact is, people only leave comments when:
> 1. the photos are really bad
> 2. the photos are really good
> 3. posted by a really active member
> ...



YES! Except #3. I practically live here.


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## Nikon_Josh (Jun 9, 2012)

iPhoto17 said:


> whenever i post anything for C&C everyone focuses on the bad, i understand how important it is to know what needs to be fixed and corrected but to not say anything about a photo is good whatsoever is just insulting in my opinion.
> 
> its this that has shied me away from this for quite some time in search of more supportive ways to improve my skills



:lmao: I tell you why... BECAUSE you use iPhoto to process your images in and it sucks! Sorry couldn't resist! :lmao:


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## Dao (Jun 9, 2012)

This is my observation:

Post a photo and received a lot of negative comments = 
- The photo has a lot of issue or at least one major issue that even a beginner knows about it.
- Issue could be technical issue such as focus, exposure or how the photo was composed.
- A lot of work need to be done. 

Post a photo and received very few or no comments = 
- Most likely your photo is fine as far as technical issue goes.
- But the photo maybe still not standing out.  Need more work on composition and techniques.
- More work need to be done.

Post a photo and receive few positive comments =
- You can getting there, still need to work on some techniques and composition.

Post a photo and receive a lot of positive comments =
- Great job.  But still need improvement.


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## Fred Berg (Jun 9, 2012)

I have to pick up on something mentioned by The Traveler. Sometimes people don't even try to turn the feedback they get into anything positive. I don't always go back and try again when I get less than positive comments, but quite often I do. I try to put the advice I get to good use: sometimes a re-shoot and sometimes I try it out in similar situations. My experience on this board has been that if you are willing to put the work in, there will be support for your efforts and patience shown to you. However, if you choose to ignore the input and carry on regardless, then it won't be long before those who could help will stop looking in on the photos you post.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 9, 2012)

When I post photos I don't expect a lot of comments, I'm not looking for praise.  I post pictures when I have something that people can look at and maybe learn something from it.  Last week I posted a couple of photos in the people gallery "the two dollar studio"  it was to show that good portraits can be done using one bare light bulb, nothing more than people using it as a learning tool.   If someone types out a long explanation as to what the pictures are, then most of time it's like throwing out the smoke and mirrors to cover up the weakness in the photo.  There are bad photos posted on here, ones that just can't be fixed, so other than just saying it's bad, perhaps I should just say, "I would have deleted this one so no one could see it".  I comment on photos that I like, that are different and that are well put together.  I don't comment on every photo, I don't look at every gallery, maybe some people do.  

I can also see why people don't comment as it was mentioned in this thread earlier, they are new to photography and  are concerned that what they say may be wrong, or that they aren't at a point where their comments would mean anything, as they don't know what could be changed to make it better.

I am sick of people whining and crying that no one looks at their photos,  people do look, but they don't comment, and when someone does comment and says something negative,  they complain and state that "you obviously don't understand"  I understand that they have never been told no in their lives, and hearing something other than "you are great" just doesn't sit well.


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## shefjr (Jun 9, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:
			
		

> I understand that they have never been told no in their lives, and hearing something other than "you are great" just doesn't sit well.



That is sad that we are heading in that direction and IMO its only going to get worse. Nobody loses we are all winners, blah blah blah sets people up to not be able to take failure.


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## IByte (Jun 9, 2012)

mishele said:
			
		

> Is it time for another coddling thread? lol



The way you were talking about your insanity workout, coddling may help in this thread lol.


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## IByte (Jun 9, 2012)

If anyone has a website and begins charging clients whether the self-proclaim professional or not deserves stronger, more stringent critique.  You're basically telling us, your client base, that you no longer need training wheels and you're wearing big boy pants.


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## Jeatley (Jun 9, 2012)

I might be wrong but I don't like it when people sugar coat it for me.... Just say what you got to say.


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## table1349 (Jun 9, 2012)

Scenario:

2 + 2= 4.  " Very Good Little Johnny"    Now what has Johnny leaned?

2 + 2 = 5.  "No Johnny, that is not correct.  Let us try this. Here are 2 pencils and here are 2 pens.  Now how many things do we have to write with on the table."  4  "Now Johnny, the next time you have a problem with addition you might do something like this with whatever you have on hand. You can even just make marks on a piece of paper and add them up."   Johnny has now learned a technique that he did not have in his tool box before.  

Praise is nice but it sooths the ego.
Constructive critisism while not so good for the ego, provides tools to improve.  Why are you asking for C&C, Ego or Education?


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## IByte (Jun 9, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:
			
		

> Scenario:
> 
> 2 + 2= 4.  " Very Good Little Johnny"    Now what has Johnny leaned?
> 
> ...



Pints and wings helps me with my 1,2,3's lol.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 9, 2012)

You can go to your family, or to Facebook for praise! If you want honesty.. we will try to provide it!


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## Designer (Jun 9, 2012)

iPhoto17 said:


> whenever i post anything for C&C everyone focuses on the bad, i understand how important it is to know what needs to be fixed and corrected but to not say anything about a photo is good whatsoever is just insulting in my opinion.
> 
> its this that has shied me away from this for quite some time in search of more supportive ways to improve my skills



I think it depends upon the kind of photographs you are posting.  I have seen quite a few positive comments here.  Choose from the following:

1. Keep trying.
2. Show them only to your mother.
3. Never ask anyone for an opinion.


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## unpopular (Jun 9, 2012)

rdubb1031 said:


> While I agree that not every picture is a picaso



Do you mean conceptually plagerized?

(sorry for the art history snark)

---

I can guarentee you. If a photographer does anything remotely new or innovative, it will be either ignored, or torn up into little bits.


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## sm4him (Jun 9, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> The fact is, people only leave comments when:
> 1. the photos are really bad
> 2. the photos are really good
> 3. posted by a really active member
> ...



OR, 
#5: The OP alludes to the imminent opening of their studio, having just purchased their first DSLR.
#6: The first one or two comments are so snarky that everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon.


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## Buckster (Jun 9, 2012)

They're all just opinions.  Take them with a grain of salt.

If what was said makes sense to you, run with it.  If it doesn't, ignore it.  If it's ridiculous advice or CC, feel free to laugh at it. If it's dead wrong, feel free to correct or question it.  If it was particularly helpful in your opinion *Like* it.

Just don't take any of it too seriously or dwell on it or let any of it get to you, either by swelling your head or crushing your spirit, or you'll suck the fun out of it.


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## KenC (Jun 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> KenC said:
> 
> 
> > It's certainly true that some people on here make rude comments, *often without offering anything constructive*, but posting on the internet is sort of like going down the street and asking everyone you meet.  Some of them are going to be unpleasant people you don't want to deal with.  The only way to handle this, other than just not posting on here at all, is to ignore the unhelpful comments and get what you can from the constructive ones.
> ...



I agree completely with both of your statements.  I wasn't bemoaning the negative comments that actually are constructive.  And yes, there are lots of meaningless positive comments, but those are even easier to ignore.  It's just unfortunate when something pretty bad is posted and gets only the unhelpful positive comments, while others among us don't bother to jump in and critique, possibly because it is often hard to know where to begin.


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## unpopular (Jun 9, 2012)

Don't ignore it. It's easy to get into the ignoring what you don't like and self dillusion, I have to fight this all the time. I think the only critiques that I ignore are those that clearly show no attempt to be constructive, simple one liners; especially "it's boring".

But i think that if someone puts out more than a few words, you should be greatful. I also think that it should be more encouraged that the photographer be allowed to discuss the critique, especially when specific choices are made in an image and being questioned. It helps everyone involved, it may hep the critiquer to understand and appreciate different approaches, and it may help the photographer understand and appreciate why the approach was not successful.


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## zcar21 (Jun 9, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> KenC said:
> 
> 
> > It's certainly true that some people on here make rude comments, often without offering anything constructive, but posting on the internet is sort of like going down the street and asking everyone you meet.  Some of them are going to be unpleasant people you don't want to deal with.  The only way to handle this, other than just not posting on here at all, is to ignore the unhelpful comments and get what you can from the constructive ones.
> ...



I couldn't disagree more. You are probably thinking what gryphonslair is thinking.

_Not criticism._



gryphonslair99 said:


> Scenario:
> 
> 2 + 2= 4.  " Very Good Little Johnny"    Now what has Johnny leaned?
> 
> ...



Scenario 1. A praise was given, nothing else.
Scenario 2. An explanation of how to fix the problem was given.

Neither one was criticism.
Criticism: The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or  other artistic works.

It has been proven many times that pointing out the good is more constructive that pointing out the bad.

_This is criticism._


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## table1349 (Jun 9, 2012)

IByte said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are causing yourself too much work then.  Pints and wings ADD up to lots of trips to the Pissor.  

Shots and Double shots only causes a short trip down to the floor.


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## sm4him (Jun 9, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> When I post photos I don't expect a lot of comments, I'm not looking for praise.



I post photos primarily for two reasons:
1. I already KNOW there are issues with it, and want help figure out how to resolve them.
2. I really LIKE the photo and want to see if it might actually BE good, or if a more objective viewer will see what's wrong about it--which, for me, is almost ALWAYS the case.   But that's okay, because while it might sometimes hurt my "pride" to have what I thought was a really good photo torn apart, it helps me make the next one even better.

I rarely get more than just a handful of comments on my photo threads, and sometimes even getting those is like pulling teeth. 
But the comments I have gotten, I believe, have helped me improve my photography two- or three-fold from where I was a year ago.


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## zcar21 (Jun 9, 2012)

To answer the Op's question. I think that most people here are helpful,  but they might not know the best way to help. That is why some people's comments are rather harsh, but the intention is good. Can't complain because  it's free.


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## table1349 (Jun 9, 2012)

zcar21 said:


> It has been proven many times that pointing out the good is more constructive that pointing out the bad.
> 
> _This is criticism._



That is ego and provides no tools to fix that which needs to be fixed.   We just had our house painted.  The painters actually finished last evening.  This afternoon the crew boss and the painting company owner are coming over for a walk around. They did a nice job.  

Now if they come over and I tell them,"You did a nice job."  I have soothed their ego and they will leave and send me my bill.  

However my wife and I have already walked around the place and found a few minor touch ups that need to be done.  We will point them out to them and they will correct them.  As I said, they have already done a nice job and the house looks great.  But after they correct them these minor things the house will look even better and they will still know that they did a good job along with the knowledge that they have a happy customer that will recommend them to others.  

Which is does more for this painter and his crew.  "You did great" or "Looks real nice, but there are a couple of things that need corrected and here is what they are."  The end result after the corrections is going to be far more valuable in the long run.

The one question I would as of people that post here or on any forum is, do you ask yourself why you are tuely posting what ever it is you want to ask and are you ready for the answers that you are going to get.   People that post for ego will usually have that ego hurt.  People that truely have the desire to learn will take those things offered whether they like them or not, evaluate them and pick out the wheat from the chaff, and apply those thing to what they do.  

Then there are those that are looking for a free handout.  But that subject deserves it's own, and will quickly become, ugly thread.


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## zcar21 (Jun 9, 2012)

You made emphasis on the fact that they did a good job, however it needs a few touch ups and you'll 100% satisfied.

What if the result had been very different. You were unhappy with the job, major problems everywhere. How would you handle the situation. 

Would you get angry and start pointing out the problems? or Would you start with something positive? Like I was recommended by a friend and they were satisfied, or I heard that you always did a good job, and _then_ start pointing out the problems.

Most people are faster to point out the bad first.


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 9, 2012)

This is a bad post.


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## fjrabon (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm not even a very good photographer and I get plenty of good comments from people.  I think you're having a bit of selective memory here, where you're only remembering those comments that stung.  

Really, in the end I treasure the informed, but harsh criticisms much more than "that's a great shot" comments.  The worst is when I put something up for C+C and I dont get a single comment on how I could have made the shot better.

Sure, some harsh comments you get have no idea what they're talking about.  But many can truly be helpful.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 9, 2012)

I really can't make any coherent statement from everyone's opinions but I can say when I respond.

1) If a person clearly has not looked at the galleries to see how other people's work had been evaluated, just goes blindly ahead and posts 10 or 12 unnumbered random shots, I think, 'what a rude jerk' but I don't write anything.

2) If a person clearly has not looked at the galleries to see how other people's work had been evaluated and just blindly posts really bad images, badly exposed, badly composed and doesn't say anything about having a problem, I think, 'what a rude self-centered putz who thinks the art of photography started when he decided to post a picture' but I don't write anything.

3) If however, a person posts a picture or two and says something to the effect that they know this isn't right but they can't understand why,  I'll do anything to help wherever I can.

The long term problem with situations 1 & 2 is that, inevitably someone, often someone who doesn't seem to know much more than the poster,  will chime in and say something like *I like 1 but cut off a bit at the bottom, I like 2 but it is too dark* and so.

Telling people how you would correct an individual image is absolutely not the way to help someone, particularly someone who needs systemic help.
Corrections should only be made in response to recognition of a problem and, if the problem is sytemic to this person's work, then talk about the problem not the correction needed.


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 9, 2012)

zcar21 said:


> You made emphasis on the fact that they did a good job, however it needs a few touch ups and you'll 100% satisfied.
> 
> What if the result had been very different. You were unhappy with the job, major problems everywhere. How would you handle the situation.
> 
> ...





Allot of it depends on who did the painting. if some kids down the street did the painting I would just likely point out they worked hard but a few things need to be taken care of. but if its a professional job and it was horrible i'd probalby go off on them.  allot of how people respond relates to how the person posted in the first place.

Me, I personally post up photos to be ripped apart. The whole reason I came to a photography site was to tear apart my photos. find out what I need to improve or change. or even just another way I could have looked at the setup to come up with something diffrent. If I want praise i'll post them up for my mom. My mom loves all my photos.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 9, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> .
> 
> The long term problem with situations 1 & 2 is that, inevitably someone, often someone who doesn't seem to know much more than the poster,  will chime in and say something like *I like 1 but cut off a bit at the bottom, I like 2 but it is too dark* and so.



God that sounds eerily familiar! lol!


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## Overread (Jun 9, 2012)

One must learn both the error of ones ways and the rightness of their actions in order to progress. 



In short teaching someone only the error of their ways, or in this case only focusing upon the incorrect parts of a photo (be they technical or compositional) can only help a person so far. We often go into critique and give our critical evaluation because pointing out the wrong parts is often, both easier and also what many actually want. Unspoken is the thought that we assume that the photographer already knows the good points without their mention - however (as is often the case with novices) the photographer might not be aware of what specific parts of a photo are good as well as what are bad.

Thus taking the time to point out both sides of the argument is helping them twice over to further their understanding.


The argument that they will only read the good and ignore the bad is mostly pointless in my view. If they are only looking for and focus on the one side of the spectrum then they'll only look at those parts and what you put, if in conflict to what they are looking for, will simply be ignored. I always approach critique as something first for the photographer being critiqued, but secondly also for others reading the post as well. I don't really mind if a photographer takes on board my suggestions or not and I refuse to get hung up if my critique is not considered the holy grail. I only ever seek to put forth my view and to, when asked or initially, put forth as much of my reasoning for my  viewpoint as I am able to give. 


Life is greatly about learning who to and who not to listen to - but its very hard to not listen to someone who makes a clear and reasoned argument/observation. Justification and explanation of critique can also help to further a persons learning because they are not only learning what is wrong, but why, what that view is based upon etc.... This gives them far far more to work with next time they go out shooting.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jun 9, 2012)

iPhoto17 said:


> whenever i post anything for C&C everyone focuses on the bad, i understand how important it is to know what needs to be fixed and corrected but to not say anything about a photo is good whatsoever is just insulting in my opinion.
> 
> its this that has shied me away from this for quite some time in search of more supportive ways to improve my skills



If I had any interest in generic back-patting, I'd show my images to my wife or my parents. 

I don't post anything here looking for a "Dude, you're the best photographer ever!".  I just want to be told by other skilled professionals how I can improve on my technique and artistic vision.  If somebody wants to say, "Great shot!" or something, that's cool.  But that's not why I'm here.

"Support" from an anonymous online photography forum is irrelevant to me.

That's just my $0.02...

EDIT:

I should probably clarify that I'm every bit as frustrated as you by the small-minded cowards who love to hide behind their keyboards and type out a$$hole-ish things in the name of "C&C" that they'd never say to ANYONE in person.  I'm trying to learn to ignore those types of comments in the same way I'd ignore a mouthy pre-teen. The pathetic people who make comments like that have serious self-worth issues...


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## Overread (Jun 9, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> "Support" from an anonymous online photography forum is irrelevant to me.




If support is worthless to you then so is critique. Especially in the long run. 
This is because you can get fixated upon the idea that there is ALWAYS something wrong with your photos, and if you always discount the support/compliments, then you are like to end up feeling greatly frustrated even though your photography will have progressed to a very good standard. 

Again, you've got to consider who is saying what - you've got to consider where and who the viewpoint comes from; be that online or in the real world.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jun 9, 2012)

Overread said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > "Support" from an anonymous online photography forum is irrelevant to me.
> ...



I agree that hyper self-critique can be detrimental.  I should probably clarify that when I say "support", what I really mean is the generic "nice shot", "great set" or other similar comments that 80% of the members here consistently offer.

When a member here, especially one who's previous commentary and posted images are high quality, makes specific compliments as to concept, composition, exposure, etc., that's the sort of positive critique I really appreciate.


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## IByte (Jun 9, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:
			
		

> You are causing yourself too much work then.  Pints and wings ADD up to lots of trips to the Pissor.
> 
> Shots and Double shots only causes a short trip down to the floor.


Irish carbombs will get you there sooner


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