# Why I Love Full-Frame



## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

In the past few weeks I've noticed myself shooting a lot of portraits at f3.5, f4, and f5.6, all with similar compression and "look" to a crop sensor body and f2.8 or lower aperture. I've noticed that full-frame allows me to stop down a lens for greater sharpness and yet still have a similar DOF look. I KNEW this before I shot a full-frame
camera, but real world use makes it all much more apparent. 

So why do you love Full-Frame?

Jake


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

Low light .... though I wish it was smaller so when I attach it to my telescope it ain't so big.  But when on my new telescope it looks small.  So I'm good with that.

I also love the wide angle.  Yup, I know you can get a 10mm on crop but I like saving money and getting the older AF-D lenses when appropriate, saves a bunch of money (which isn't FF, but any built in body focus motor)


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Low light .... though I wish it was smaller so when I attach it to my telescope it ain't so big.  But when on my new telescope it looks small.  So I'm good with that.
> 
> I also love the wide angle.  Yup, I know you can get a 10mm on crop but I like saving money and getting the older AF-D lenses when appropriate, saves a bunch of money (which isn't FF, but any built in body focus motor)



How did I know you'd say low light? [emoji16]


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

Well I like it in my home "studio" too where when I use my 85 I can actually converse with the person I'm with, instead of "stepping back", beyond the wall behind me where I'd probably be surrounded by dirt.

So more proper perspective too


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Well I like it in my home "studio" too where when I use my 85 I can actually converse with the person I'm with, instead of "stepping back", beyond the wall behind me where I'd probably be surrounded by dirt.
> 
> So more proper perspective too



Yeah that's definitely important too [emoji106]


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## Designer (Oct 4, 2014)

You guys are sure making it difficult to resist. 

So why do I resist?  

As of now I have other priorities, but the temptation to go full frame is becoming stronger.

Thanks, I think.


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

Designer said:


> You guys are sure making it difficult to resist.
> 
> So why do I resist?
> 
> ...



You're welcome.


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## Braineack (Oct 4, 2014)

awaiting the haters in 3, 2...


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

Braineack said:


> awaiting the haters in 3, 2...


There is literally no difference between a FF and a Crop camera if you take all the differences out of the equation.

a $99 P&S is virtually the same as a $299 P&S
and the $299 P&S is virtually the same as the $300 dslr
and the $300 dslr is virtually the same as the $900 dslr
and the $900 dslr is virtually the same as the $2000 dslr

as long as you discount the differences to a trivial status
then the $99 P&S is as good as the $2000 dslr


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > awaiting the haters in 3, 2...
> ...



Talk about flawless logic [emoji108]


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## jsecordphoto (Oct 4, 2014)

Added dynamic range...better in low light...and of course that status symbol it becomes when out among the hundreds of other people photographing the fall foliage here in new england with p&s cameras


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## JustJazzie (Oct 4, 2014)

I think I'll love my ff more when I get more lens. The low light capabilities are phenomenal, so that's my favorite part so far. Also having the extra view from a 50mm makes indoor pictures easier than having to back up with my 50 on aspc. And the Colors/tones I am able to pull out of a raw file makes me drool. Honestly though, since the 50mm is all I have right now, if I am taking a picture of anything except the kids/family, I'm still grabbing my sony with 18-200 an AWEFUL lot more than I want too, and I'm still loving the pictures from it. Will someone tell my husband it's vital to take out a second mortgage so I can get every lens on my wish-list RIGHT. NOW.. He just doesn't get it! ;-)


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I think I'll love my ff more when I get more lens. The low light capabilities are phenomenal, so that's my favorite part so far. Also having the extra view from a 50mm makes indoor pictures easier than having to back up with my 50 on aspc. And the Colors/tones I am able to pull out of a raw file makes me drool. Honestly though, since the 50mm is all I have right now, if I am taking a picture of anything except the kids/family, I'm still grabbing my sony with 18-200 an AWEFUL lot more than I want too, and I'm still loving the pictures from it. Will someone tell my husband it's vital to take out a second mortgage so I can get every lens on my wish-list RIGHT. NOW.. He just doesn't get it! ;-)



Don't you have a Df?

Look at lower cost AF-D lenses
that's how I got the ball rolling.  There is so much out there and low cost.  The Df is only 16mp so you don't have to worry about the problem the d8x0 has with needing the best lenses available.
I bought my 18-35/3.5-4.6 AF-D lens for about $280 I think.  A far cry below the 18-35 G at $750.  And all the other comparisons are the same price-wise.


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

Braineack said:


> awaiting the haters in 3, 2...



There's always haters.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 4, 2014)

Since I couldn't afford high end zeiss and Leica lenses that gives the superb photo-realism and colour density I crave I now go for clinical sharpness that full frames can offer (high mpx and no AA sensor models).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JustJazzie (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Don't you have a Df?
> 
> Look at lower cost AF-D lenses
> that's how I got the ball rolling.  There is so much out there and low cost.  The Df is only 16mp so you don't have to worry about the problem the d8x0 has with needing the best lenses available.
> I bought my 18-35/3.5-4.6 AF-D lens for about $280 I think.  A far cry below the 18-35 G at $750.  And all the other comparisons are the same price-wise.



I do! But plans for Lens's were side swiped by unexpected medical bills, our well pump needing replaced (to the tune of $6k) and needing to register a car with a (ridiculously expensive) "new car tax. 

I'm hoping in the next month or two, I will be able to get the 28-105 f3.5-4.5. It seems like a pretty sweet lens for the price, and then I can decide what route I want to take for lens. I'm debating between some nice vintage primes + a new 70-200, or just holding out and getting some awesome zooms, (24-70 2.8, and 70-200 f4) I've never been a huge prime fan but I'm wondering if I should try to become one for the cost savings...


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 4, 2014)

Toyota Altis 1.6L stock model cost $110,000 at where I am. And you could only drive for 10 years lol


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## photoguy99 (Oct 4, 2014)

Medium format is even better! Go to 4x5! You'll never go back. It maybe you will.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 4, 2014)

Yeah if you are willing to sponsor lol


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## D-B-J (Oct 4, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Medium format is even better! Go to 4x5! You'll never go back. It maybe you will.



Yeah... Maybe one day...


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## Mach0 (Oct 4, 2014)

I love the lowlight abilities and the DOF control ,like yourself, even when stopped down and nice sharp image. It's very nice


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## Derrel (Oct 4, 2014)

I shot a pair of cameras for a long time, a Nikon D2x from May of 2005 and then added a Canon 5D from  spring of 2006 to late winter of 2012, when I replaced both with a used D3x. What I like about full frame is what it does for the lenses I own. It makes the 70-200/2.8 a really versatile lens; it makes the 50mm a light, small normal angle of view lens for neutral foreground/background compression; it makes the 300mm f/4 a light telephoto that is not uber-tight and which does not crop every single thing off;full frame makes the 85mm lens very USABLE indoors. 

You know my example: 85mm lens covers an 8.47 foot tall field of view at 20 feet on full-frame, same 8.47 foot field on DX requires me to move back to 34 feet. Shooting-wise, full frame has a larger viewfinder so I can SEE what I am composing better than with a smaller viewfinder image. I started with the 135 size,( 24x36mm capture frame) and lenses for it in 1975, and have a lot of experience with that format. I think it is the best format we've ever had for social photography. I'm not into wildlife shooting, but if I were, I would emphasize crop-frame more I think.


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## Josh66 (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > awaiting the haters in 3, 2...
> ...


This is exactly the logic that allows me to stop working a half hour before lunch, lol.


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## Designer (Oct 4, 2014)

I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

better low light performance
better DOF control
better lens performance
larger viewfinder
The ability to piss off the occasional observer by taking casual snapshots with a $5,000 camera and lens combo.


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## Derrel (Oct 4, 2014)

Designer said:
			
		

> The ability to piss off the occasional observer by taking casual snapshots with a $5,000 camera and lens combo.



This is really what photography is all about.


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## JerryVenz (Oct 4, 2014)

A full frame, 20+ MP, camera is the MINIMUM requirement in the professional portrait world--if you want to sell 24X30, 30X40 or 50" wall prints.

It wasn't until we bought our Canon 5d MKII that we finally produced wall prints that matched the quality of prints already on our wall created from 6X7 cm negatives.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 4, 2014)

What I love best about full frame?  Everytime Nikon comes out with a new one the prices on the crop sensor stuff drops accordingly, and better yet a lot of folks with the high end crop sensor stuff sell it off to go full frame.

Yup.. love full frame.  Lol


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > Don't you have a Df?
> ...



A couple  sweet inexpensive lenses:
Nikon 24-85 / 2.8 - 4.0  AF-D
Nikon 35-70/2.8 AF-D push pull.  This is hte predecessor of the 28-70/2.8 and newer 24-70/2.8
for UWA the Nikon 18-35/3.5-4.6  AF-D
and of course the 80-200/2.8 AF-D


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

I tell ya what............ when I strap my 70-200L f/2.8 IS II onto my 5D3..................... things start happening!!

I make a rich woman beg
I'll make a good woman steal
I'll make an old woman blush
And make a young girl squeal

And when I walk the streets
Kings and Queens step aside
Every woman I meet
They all stay satisfied

I wanna tell ya pretty baby
Well Ya see I make my own
I'm here to tell ya honey
That I'm bad to the bone

Bad to the bone
B-B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-Bad
Bad to the bone!!!!!!!!

Now if I could just take a decent pic!!


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

suppose if nothing else and you get attacked or mugged or something you will have a bigger item to swing at them.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

bribrius said:


> suppose if nothing else and you get attacked or mugged or something you will have a bigger item to swing at them.


Oh, no swinging here. There are better, dedicated tools for that.


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> bribrius said:
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> > suppose if nothing else and you get attacked or mugged or something you will have a bigger item to swing at them.
> ...


oh man, you are one of those gun crazies and you have a full frame dslr? Geez, I bet you drive one of those gas guzzling cars too.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

bribrius said:


> snerd said:
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Dude........... you're good!!


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> bribrius said:
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I sure hope that is a cummins not a gasser. Either way I am jealous at least your fuel gauge probably works.


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

I do wish I had the lowlight capabilities of a full frame. Just like I wish I had the ambition to fix my fuel gauge......


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## robbins.photo (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> I tell ya what............ when I strap my 70-200L f/2.8 IS II onto my 5D3..................... things start happening!!



Que porn music here... 

Lol


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> snerd said:
> 
> 
> > I tell ya what............ when I strap my 70-200L f/2.8 IS II onto my 5D3..................... things start happening!!
> ...


those full frame people just think they are better than us crop frame people.
Maybe we do need to buy full frames?


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## robbins.photo (Oct 4, 2014)

bribrius said:


> robbins.photo said:
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Nah.  I learned a few things early on in life.  First, you can't buy your way out of an inferiority complex.  Second, when it says "High Voltage", they really aren't kidding.  Third, the minute one of your friends says, "Hey guys watch this" just go ahead and start dialing 911 right then and there.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

I think it's "hold my beer and watch this........."


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## robbins.photo (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.



Does it have antlers mounted on the front?  I mean if you don't have a gun rack that is an acceptable substitute you know.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> snerd said:
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> > Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.
> ...


I've already divulged way too much. Next you'll want to know which trailer park 
I'm in!


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## astroNikon (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.


but those two pistols are both 50 calibers ...


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> but those two pistols are both 50 calibers ...


Glocks. A G-19 (9mm) and G-21SF (45 ACP). The SF stands for "short frame", for my smaller, silky hands. Shoots like a cannon, though!!  Ka-Boom!!!!


Sent from iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## bribrius (Oct 4, 2014)

snerd said:


> Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.


really wouldn't matter long as they were sigs, glocks or something decent.
In fact I have a tanfoglio .45 which I love.

if you mean the car, well... no matter.
They are all junk.
How the car companies can make cars for eighty years and still mess it up is beyond my scope of reasoning.


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## snerd (Oct 4, 2014)

Oh! That 21 is a Gen 3 with the ambidextrous mag release and Picatinny rail. It's a sweet shooter fer sure!


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## robbins.photo (Oct 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> robbins.photo said:
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Well hopefully you picked one of the classier ones


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## bribrius (Oct 5, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> bribrius said:
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I don't know. I would be tempted to go full frame for the obvious benefits especially of the lower light capability especially if I got into more portrait work or something giving me more of a need.. I just wish they could make them smaller with smaller sensors so they were more portable and lighter to use for a walk around too.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 5, 2014)

snerd said:


> astroNikon said:
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> > but those two pistols are both 50 calibers ...
> ...



You never saw Clint Eastwood carrying a glock.  Just saying.. lol


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## astroNikon (Oct 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> I don't know. I would be tempted to go full frame for the obvious benefits especially of the lower light capability especially if I got into more portrait work or something giving me more of a need.. I just wish they could make them smaller with smaller sensors so they were more portable and lighter to use for a walk around too.



I would love if Nikon came out with a Mirrorless FF that accepted existing dSLR lenses.
For some of my uses I don't need the mirror or bulk at all.
But the low light and dynamic range of the FF Nikons is fantastic.  That is my primary use of it.  I plan on taking some more night shots  of things I've normally taken during the day, just to see what I can pull out of the photo.


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## D-B-J (Oct 5, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know. I would be tempted to go full frame for the obvious benefits especially of the lower light capability especially if I got into more portrait work or something giving me more of a need.. I just wish they could make them smaller with smaller sensors so they were more portable and lighter to use for a walk around too.
> ...



You'll be surprised about how much you can recover. @sscarmack has some really good examples.


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## astroNikon (Oct 5, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> You'll be surprised about how much you can recover. @sscarmack has some really good examples.


I've recovered alot from misc shots when I've meandered around the city at night.  But I wasn't purposely doing it for that effect.  I'm going to plan something out .. if it ever gets warm again.


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## snowbear (Oct 5, 2014)

bribrius said:


> suppose if nothing else and you get attacked or mugged or something you will have a bigger item to swing at them.


That's what Aluminum tripods are for - they are great urban melee weapons.


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## gsgary (Oct 7, 2014)

bribrius said:


> snerd said:
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> > Now, you all know I'm a big fake, don't ya? Drive a 4-cylinder Altima and down to only 2 pistols.
> ...



I have my fists


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## sm4him (Oct 7, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > awaiting the haters in 3, 2...
> ...



But wait…
You forgot that the "free with a 2-year plan" cell phone is virtually the same as a $99 P&S!


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## astroNikon (Oct 7, 2014)

sm4him said:


> astroNikon said:
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the Free cell phone is better than the $2k dslr.  
There was a thread about that recently.


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## Braineack (Oct 7, 2014)

because it's free and can take pictures?


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## snerd (Oct 7, 2014)

gsgary said:


> .... I have my fists


Never show up to a gunfight with fists!  



...........


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

snerd said:


> gsgary said:
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> 
> > .... I have my fists
> ...


Guns are for people with a small penis


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Anyone would think full frame is a new thing I've always had it since the 70's


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Anyone would think full frame is a new thing I've always had it since the 70's


Haha good point. It's like a choice shooting between a 35mm film or a smaller sized film 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone would think full frame is a new thing I've always had it since the 70's
> ...



It's only new to me cause I'm such a youngster! I did shoot film though.. Once. For a few months.


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## astroNikon (Oct 8, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> Vince.1551 said:
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maddening wasn't it ?


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> D-B-J said:
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Actually quite fun [emoji16]


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Film is much more fun than digital


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Much easier to go to court with a slide or negative in your pocket to prove ownership


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Much easier to go to court with a slide or negative in your pocket to prove ownership



You sound like a cynic.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

What do you actually own with digital I can pick up and hold my negatives and slides


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> What do you actually own with digital I can pick up and hold my negatives and slides



A sexy camera and some digital files that are copyrighted in camera to me and my business. And on my hard drive. And were taken with the camera I own.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

And can be lost at the flick of a switch,  I didn't know you owned a Leica


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> And can be lost at the flick of a switch,  I didn't know you owned a Leica



My D800 is sexy. And with triplicates of my files... I think I'll be safe.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

D800 is an ugly brick


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## astroNikon (Oct 8, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> ... My D800 is sexy. ..


Does it whisper in your ear or something ??


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## astroNikon (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> D800 is an ugly brick


No ,, this is an ugly brick ==> http://auckland-west.co.nz/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/P1490429aw.jpg





can I post that .. it's not mine.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Only goog looking digitals are all mirrorless


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Only goog looking digitals are all mirrorless



To each his own.


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> ......... Guns are for people with a small penis









Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, did we?


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

No I'm fine I think carrying guns is crazy


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> No I'm fine I think carrying guns is crazy


I think carrying a mirrorless is crazy.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> gsgary said:
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> > Only goog looking digitals are all mirrorless
> ...


Yeh A7 is have the size but the same picture quality


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry, Jake, for the thread drift. I'll drop it.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

snerd said:


> gsgary said:
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> > No I'm fine I think carrying guns is crazy
> ...


Not when you see the quality of the shots it takes


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> D-B-J said:
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Not so sure the a7 is as powerful as a D800.. Either way. You buy mirror less and support that sector, I buy DSLR and support that sector, and Snerd buys guns to support that sector. Tis what makes the world go round. It's foolish to think what you like and prefer will align with what others like and prefer. Just let it be.


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry it is


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

D-B-J said:


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Don't like the Beatles


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

snerd said:


> Sorry, Jake, for the thread drift. I'll drop it.



Oh I don't mind. I'm just rolling with it. No worries [emoji16]


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Don't like Oasis


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## shadowlands (Oct 8, 2014)

I'll stick to my D800 as well. Love the performance at ISO 6400.


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Guns are for people with a small penis


I have to admit, I was quite shocked to read this. I assumed, wrongly it seems, that the educated, "enlightened" folks, did not engage in such sweeping generalizations and painting with such broad brushes. Maybe in this respect, they're not much different than the rednecks they criticize so often. Hmmm?!


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

Ours is not a gun culture thank God


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## Braineack (Oct 8, 2014)

Hmmm indeed


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## gsgary (Oct 8, 2014)

shadowlands said:


> I'll stick to my D800 as well. Love the performance at ISO 6400.


I'll stick with A7 love the performance at 16,000 iso


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Ours is not a gun culture thank God


My apologies, I did not think to even look at your profile to see that you're in the UK. Suffice to say that you really have no idea what my "culture" entails, which is why you are generalizing and stereotyping. Firearms are at most a "very small" part of my American "culture". It's really great being an American! I understand over there you have to run or be beaten or killed before you could even think of defending yourself. Quite barbaric indeed. Good day, sir. 


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## Warhorse (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> No I'm fine I think carrying guns is crazy


Is that why your country tried to disarm us once upon a time?


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## JacaRanda (Oct 8, 2014)

blasphemous right?  The 8:50 minute mark is best.


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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

I missed my crop the first time I shot birds with my full frame. So now I take the crop for wildlife and sports, and the full frame for family and landscapes. Easy as pie!!


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

snerd said:


> I missed my crop the first time I shot birds with my full frame. So now I take the crop for wildlife and sports, and the full frame for family and landscapes. Easy as pie!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro



Seems legit. If I shot wildlife like that I'm sure I'd feel a bitt less smitten by FF.


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## astroNikon (Oct 8, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Guns are for people with a small penis



And another reason I've never owned a gun and never will be able to ...


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## D-B-J (Oct 8, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> gsgary said:
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> ...




Is there a "TMI" rating for posts...?


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## astroNikon (Oct 8, 2014)




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## snerd (Oct 8, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> astroNikon said:
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Or a LIAR rating?!

I had a much better comeback, but I'm probably in enough trouble for the political posts.


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## chuasam (Dec 25, 2014)

I don't love FullFrame per se. That's simply what I use for work because it's the best I can afford. When I'm shooting for myself, I have a little P&S. I am really hoping to get the Lumix LX100 sometime.


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## sashbar (Dec 25, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Don't like Oasis



Here I am with you. I can not stand the sound. Can not remember a single tune. Could not care less about the image. The whole thing is dslrishly awkward. Oasis of noise in the ocean of music.


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## gsgary (Dec 25, 2014)

sashbar said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Don't like Oasis
> ...


And all copied from Beatles, T rex


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## sashbar (Dec 25, 2014)

And sorry for off topic but... Why do people carry guns these days in a peaceful country like USA? I have been there several times in many places - from San Antonio to Kansas and from California to Tennessee and never thought "Next time I need to carry a gun".
( Please do not tell me It is peaceful because you carrying guns. )
I carried a gun for a brief time in Russia in the early 90-s when it threatened to slide into complete lawlessness. There was a short period of serious instability and rampant banditry. But even then I quickly realised it was counterproductive. And it was just a gas gun, although quite potent.


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## sashbar (Dec 25, 2014)

I can understand it when people disagree with a statement.  But to disagree with a question instead of answering it ?? I hope it is not a part of a gun culture


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## Braineack (Dec 25, 2014)

It's not a question worth answering.


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## gsgary (Dec 25, 2014)

I would rather use my hands and feet (black belt Shotokan) than a gun


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## sashbar (Dec 25, 2014)

Braineack said:


> It's not a question worth answering.



That was a trigger happy response 
Actually my question was genuine. I just do not get it.


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