# Pricing Fine Art



## PixelRabbit (Aug 28, 2014)

Getting into the final stages of getting ready for this showing one of the last things I need to do is submit a price list for the prints.  I've googled and googled and googled some more and I still have no clue what to price the pieces at.  I don't really have a codb but I do have the price to get them printed/mounted/stretched/framed etc... 
I don't want to under price but also don't want to over price (although I'd prefer to over price than under, easier to come down a bit than it is to go up I think).

Does anyone have any guidelines they use or know of for fine art specifically?  Ideas? thoughts? HELP?? 

I'll say the absolute hardest things I've done to get ready for this showing have been culling the images, writing the bio (only half done, ugh!) and pricing, all have been brutal!

The prints I have to price are:

Canvases
11x14 stretched

Framed Print
11x14 on Hahnemuhle Pearl Rag
Matted and Framed 

Metal Prints

12X12 with float mount
10x10 with float mount
8x12 with float mount


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## AlanKlein (Aug 28, 2014)

What is the venue?  Are you known?  What are others pricing?  What have you sold before and at what prices?  Is a dealer involved? (If so, ask them?)  Good luck.  Hope you have a lot of success-I think it's wonderful that you are showing.


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## timor (Aug 28, 2014)

You have to consider cost of producing the piece plus commision of the gallery to.


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2014)

$14,000 each. Well, okay, maybe not, but you're worth it aren't you??


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2014)

As an example, my price for an 11x14 gallery wrap (3/4") is $180, so if the gallery is asking for a 30% commmission, I would ask a minimum of $250.


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> As an example, my price for an 11x14 gallery wrap (3/4") is $180, so if the gallery is asking for a 30% commmission, I would ask a minimum of $250.



Yeah, but PR's are Fine Art, so that adds at least a couple of grand.:mrgreen:


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## PixelRabbit (Aug 28, 2014)

AlanKlein said:


> What is the venue?  Are you known?  What are others pricing?  What have you sold before and at what prices?  Is a dealer involved? (If so, ask them?)  Good luck.  Hope you have a lot of success-I think it's wonderful that you are showing.


Hi Alan, thanks for your reply!  The venue is a well established store that does all things photography fotoart.ca, I'm not known locally, this is my first showing, pricing has ranged wildly for other showings and I'm the only one showing for the two months, I haven't sold anything before, no dealer involved just the girl who runs the gallery (hallway entrance to the store).


timor said:


> You have to consider cost of producing the piece plus commision of the gallery to.


Thanks T   Yep I have my base prices for producing the prints, commission to the store is 20% 


ronlane said:


> $14,000 each. Well, okay, maybe not, but you're worth it aren't you??


Ha!  I love you man!! 


tirediron said:


> As an example, my price for an 11x14 gallery wrap (3/4") is $180, so if the gallery is asking for a 30% commmission, I would ask a minimum of $250.


Thanks John!


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2014)

ronlane said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > As an example, my price for an 11x14 gallery wrap (3/4") is $180, so if the gallery is asking for a 30% commmission, I would ask a minimum of $250.
> ...


It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.


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## pgriz (Aug 28, 2014)

Two approaches - bottom up or top down.

Bottom up:

Your cost of producing the print,
Your time to produce the original image, (@ $120/hr)
Your time to process the image (@ $120/hr)
Plus overhead costs (gas, equipment depreciation, etc.)
Plus any gallery commissions,
Plus any "profit".

Top down:
Market price of comparable artists, plus adjustment (either up or down) for uniqueness, etc.

Don't forget that "price" is part of the attraction, to those with money.  Bragging rights come at a price, literally.  And it works out that the more they pay for it, the more they will brag how much they paid.  So in your case, I'd start at $600 and go up.  If someone asks how can you justify... the answer is "because that's what it is worth".  And don't forget to add a little sneer and a slightly pitying look for anyone to ask such a silly question.  (Hint - you may have to practice that a little to do it convincingly    ).


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> ronlane said:
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> > tirediron said:
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I know John, I was continuing my "gross mark-up" since you gave her the realistic pricing. I just wouldn't want her to under price herself.


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2014)

ronlane said:


> tirediron said:
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  Yeah, I know.


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## PixelRabbit (Aug 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.



Actually... The average income in this area is 100k a year, it is also cottage country for To and surrounding areas and not little shacks, high end waterfront properties.  It is also known for high end retirement properties.  There is no lack of disposable income especially from May to the end of autumn! (Yes I did my homework  lol )

Now Paul,  I'm going to ponder your post and get back to you when I pick myself up off of the floor.... Start at 600???? Good lord love a duck!!


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2014)

And besides, if she were to sell a couple at $14K, I could at least get a new lens with my consulting fee


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## ronlane (Aug 28, 2014)

PixelRabbit said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.
> ...



PR, I had a lady at work look at one of my photos the other day and said something about a 2' x 3' of it for the wall behind her sofa. After I got to looking at the price to print, matte and frame and then add in my cost to actually make a little money, it was going to be $500 easy. And I was SEVERELY under pricing my profit on this.


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2014)

PixelRabbit said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.
> ...


Are there any other galleries in your area where you could go to get an idea of what others are selling for? To me (and this is based on my market; I live on the far side of _Lowe_r Gumboot Junction!  ) an 11x14 seems more like a ~$400 product than a $600; $395 has a nice ring to it.


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## pgriz (Aug 28, 2014)

Judi, look at it this way.  Value is perceived.  Rolex watches are not purchased for keeping time, they are purchased to project success, weath, status, and power.  The people who most likely will be buying your work are not going to be deducting what they will pay for your work from their weekly grocery bill.  They also will most probably NOT be experts of the value of THIS fine art vs. some other art.  So if they love what they see, they are actually expecting to see a price commensurate with the visual impact.

Let me tell you a little story.  When I started in contracting, I'd work up a price for whatever I was asked to do, and I would be always trying to price it reasonably (ie, cost and a small profit).  Within a few years, I noticed some of my successful competitors were pricing comparable scopes of work at 3-4 times more than I did, and they were getting the work.  It turned out that those who could afford it, saw the price they paid as a stand-in for the quality they thought they were buying.  So my "reasonable" pricing was seen as showing that my work was inferior.  Once I understood the psychology of the buying process, I started noticing that lots of stuff was priced this way.  When you go into a store and you see two sets of shoes, for example, priced at $99 a pair or $699 a pair - which ones do you automatically think are "higher quality"?  That's because we generally just don't know enough about what we're buying to truly know what the cost "should" be, and we default to using the price as a proxy for quality or desirability.


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## timor (Aug 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.


You will be surprised, who is spending vacation in that "Junctions" and what "sort" of people live there. Chek my post #8 here:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ga-brownies-pinhole-any-other-kind-lo-fi.html
Thta's taken in vincinity of Owen Sound (where will be PR showing). One has to have a flair to do something like that. 
"Iron Horse" (#1) is also a product of the same, "local" spirit


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## AlanKlein (Aug 28, 2014)

> Hi Alan, thanks for your reply! The venue is a well established store that does all things photography fotoart.ca, I'm not known locally, this is my first showing, pricing has ranged wildly for other showings and I'm the only one showing for the two months, I haven't sold anything before, no dealer involved just the girl who runs the gallery (hallway entrance to the store).



Ask the girl who runs the gallery.  They sold before.  They can give you an idea what the local fare costs; what sells and what doesn't and at what price.  She also may give you an idea of the kind of photo content people are interested in.  That would help you select which pictures you should show.  

Disclaimer:  I've never sold pictures but have been in a non-photo business.  So my suggestions are from my gut not from any showings I have done.


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## slackercruster (Aug 28, 2014)

Where are the pictures being shown??


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## PixelRabbit (Aug 28, 2014)

ronlane said:


> PixelRabbit said:
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> > tirediron said:
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I can see that, I priced larger prints and it is definitely easy to go well above the $500 mark!


tirediron said:


> PixelRabbit said:
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> > tirediron said:
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There are lots of galleries but trying to compare it to other photography is tough because it's not "fine art" so the only option is to compare it to actual paintings etc... and I don't know if I can really do that ....


pgriz said:


> Judi, look at it this way.  Value is perceived.  Rolex watches are not purchased for keeping time, they are purchased to project success, weath, status, and power.  The people who most likely will be buying your work are not going to be deducting what they will pay for your work from their weekly grocery bill.  They also will most probably NOT be experts of the value of THIS fine art vs. some other art.  So if they love what they see, they are actually expecting to see a price commensurate with the visual impact.
> 
> Let me tell you a little story.  When I started in contracting, I'd work up a price for whatever I was asked to do, and I would be always trying to price it reasonably (ie, cost and a small profit).  Within a few years, I noticed some of my successful competitors were pricing comparable scopes of work at 3-4 times more than I did, and they were getting the work.  It turned out that those who could afford it, saw the price they paid as a stand-in for the quality they thought they were buying.  So my "reasonable" pricing was seen as showing that my work was inferior.  Once I understood the psychology of the buying process, I started noticing that lots of stuff was priced this way.  When you go into a store and you see two sets of shoes, for example, priced at $99 a pair or $699 a pair - which ones do you automatically think are "higher quality"?  That's because we generally just don't know enough about what we're buying to truly know what the cost "should" be, and we default to using the price as a proxy for quality or desirability.


Thank you Paul!  This helps wrap my head around it a bit more.


timor said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > It really depends; in downtown Toronto, absolutely, but where she is, just outside of Upper Gumboot Junction, there's always the issue of pricing yourself out of the market.
> ...


I missed you posting these!! Yes you are right, we have a unique crew up here  lol


AlanKlein said:


> > Hi Alan, thanks for your reply! The venue is a well established store that does all things photography fotoart.ca, I'm not known locally, this is my first showing, pricing has ranged wildly for other showings and I'm the only one showing for the two months, I haven't sold anything before, no dealer involved just the girl who runs the gallery (hallway entrance to the store).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Alan, I emailed her earlier and asked her what had sold in the past and for what price.  The set of images for the showing is already chosen (see below for a link)


slackercruster said:


> Where are the pictures being shown??



Hey Slacker, as in location?  In a camera store in Owen Sound Ontario.  Or which pictures?  Here is a link to the set:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/judi_smelko/sets/72157644050870383/
The ones not shown finished are being printed on metal and haven't arrived yet.


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## W.Y.Photo (Aug 28, 2014)

I have limited experience with this so far, but I do know that what everyone is saying about people basing the value or quality of something off the price is very true. The other point I want to make is this: If your work stands out in a good way from everyone else's in the gallery, (if its not a sole exhibition) and you price just about $100 dollars more than average (this is assuming the average price range is $300-900) people will find that to be a steal for the quality work they see and will probably jump at the oppurtunity.

Imagine walking through a gallery with intent to buy a piece for your wall and you see tons of $400 prints that are good but not totally eye catching, then you see a print that blows you away, you look down expecting to see a $900 or more tag that you cant afford, but ah ha!! The print is only $500 dollars! You would immeadiatly want to jump on the opportunity to buy it up right?

Of course, this scenario is me thinking from a middle class perspective. I'm not to sure how those rich folk's look at art pricing.


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## vintagesnaps (Aug 28, 2014)

Does either Upper or Lower Gumboot Junction have a hockey team?? must not, I never heard of them.  Now Owen Sound, I've heard of! But I don't know about art and photography there, just the hockey! 

But more seriously, in my area it varies. I live on the outskirts of a metropolitan area and there's a range depending on if it's a craft show where people rent table/booth space, a gallery in an art center, an artists' co-op, etc. and if it's in a more urban/suburban area or a more outlying area or a town with an artist colony/shops. Pricing seems to be at least within a couple to a few/several hundred depending on the size and if it's matted or framed (smaller matted prints are usually a good bit less).

I don't think artwork can be priced just based on cost of materials and equipment; I think the price includes your ability, the time you've spent taking photos and developing your skills and any trainings and all the practice etc. etc. Which is probably what makes it hard to price. 

Maybe if you haven't already, try looking up online any art centers, annual craft shows, etc. in the general area. When I've submitted to juried exhibits out of state I researched their past exhibits on their websites to see what type work typically was displayed and how it was priced. You could try American Society of Media Photographers or look up PPA, although info. on their might be geared to US markets (which may not be that different from where you live).


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## CameraClicker (Aug 28, 2014)

Art to go: French photo company YellowKorner comes to Don Mills - The Globe and Mail


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## PixelRabbit (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks William Sharon and Clicker!  

William, great perspective, thank you!

Sharon, thanks for the link and your thoughts, yes, this is tough to price for sure!  

Clicker, you and Sharon (and a couple others in the thread) touch on lower pricing.  After pondering this overnight (by the way Clicker, that is a very intriguing option!!)  I've come to the realization that the higher prices are definitely where to start.  As Paul said it's what makes the perception of value, if I don't value my work by putting the right price tag on it to start others won't.  Now... if it doesn't fly at those prices for whatever reason my second option is lower prices.  That's where clicker's link comes in and is very intriguing!  So, it looks like about $325 for unframed canvases, metals and prints at ~11x14 and $425 for the framed one.  Way higher than I was originally thinking but I'm starting to feel ok about going this way  

You guys are all awesome, thanks so much for your help through this whole process, I can honestly say I wouldn't have made it with my sanity intact if not for your help!! :wub:


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## KmH (Aug 29, 2014)

For future reference:
Marketing Fine Art Photography
How Photographs are Sold: Stories and Examples of How Fine Art Photographers Sell Their Work


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## CameraClicker (Aug 30, 2014)

Went to the CNE today, got a lovely sun burn.  One of the booths belonged to a photographer.  There were a lot of small prints, 8 1/2 X 11, perhaps that were $30 or $40.  Canvas prints around 36 X 24 had price tags of $300 to $500.  It was not obvious why there was a price difference.  They were street scenes/cityscapes from around the world.  A 36 X 18 was $215.


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## AlanKlein (Aug 30, 2014)

You pictures have an interesting style.  I like them.  Good luck with the show.  Let us know how things worked out.  We may learn a thing or two also.  Alan.


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## ann (Aug 31, 2014)

There is also a difference in prices from "festival" photos and "gallery art", and usually the photographer is in one camp or thr other ; not both


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## keyseddie (Aug 31, 2014)

I can tell you what has worked for me, from my first perceived "fine art" images in 1997, till now. Once I realized (take this for what you think it's worth) that I was always the most artistic photographer at most shows and that my competition was not photographers but painters and sculptors, I stopped trying to "compete" with pricing and just made sure my prints were all priced considerably higher than any photographer in any show. I stopped making prints smaller than 16x20, (9x13 print, 1/2" border, 3" museum mat) and started with a new product, large metal prints from Bay Photo. Three sizes of hannehmulhe paper prints, 9x13, 13x17, 17x23, matted to 16x20, 20x24, and 24x30. Priced last year at $250, $300 and $400 respectively. Float mounted metal prints smallest 24x30, $650, 30x40 $850, 30x45 $950 and 40x60 $1600. As my images are all LE, currently 50 prints, I only sell large metals of my most popular pieces, to maximize profit.

Location is crucial to getting these prices and crucial for people buying large sizes. My areas are The Hamptons of NY, Westchester County, NY, and Long Beach Island, a haven for the second homes for Philly and NYC people of means. Most of the houses in these areas have high ceilings and many rooms. If you develop a client, you can sell him one or more pieces at every show. Repeat buyers are gold for you. There is no such thing as "price points" for serious art buyers. They buy my same work in the gallery for 40% more.

The MOST crucial element to success is the quality and uniquness of your work. Most people will fail at this endeavor and won't make a living. There is a person here I have been PM ing who will be a success because his work is unique and powerful and his work ethic is there to do the show circuit. You are another person who is an artist with a unique point of view and you are in an affluent area. If you are willing to take the punches as you learn the ropes, are able to make personal connections with people, and can deal with the inevitable early failures until you become known, the sky is the limit.


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## dennybeall (Aug 31, 2014)

I think MONET is coming after you for some pointers. I'd go with the last prices you mentioned but have a set of tags ready for a notch up  and a notch down(marked 1st Exhibition Special). Gauge the public reaction and go with what will work best.


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## jsecordphoto (Aug 31, 2014)

I agree with Eddie (who by the way has given me some great advice), there is something to be said about playing into the psychology of your target market, and perceived value. It reminds me a lot of a previous job I had. I live in a VERY touristy area of NH right on a huge lake, a popular spot that a lot of wealthy people have their summer "camps" (adirondack style mansions) on. I worked at a furniture store that catered to that market, selling a lot of paintings, adirondack furniture, etc. My boss would get these shipments from China, and two of his biggest sellers were these desk lamps with little canoes on the side, and paintings (framed reprints) with lake and mountain themes. The canoe lamps cost him like $3 each, and he would mark them at $250- and he couldn't keep them on the shelves. 

Now I'm not saying your work, which I find pretty unique and I like it, is anything like these crappy lamps- but the theory is similar. Mark your prices up, and people will mostly believe it is because they are worth the cost. It's like a status thing, saying they paid hundreds of dollars for your artwork. Doing limited runs is the same idea. Best of luck to you! I plan on trying my hand at some art shows in my area next summer, as the season is really winding down around me now.


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## PixelRabbit (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks so much for your replies and kind words all!  I did end up going with the 325 and 425 prices.  Eddie, great info on your pricing, thank you!  I will carry everything forward with me as I have another showing booked in the Southampton Art Gallery as a guest artist August of 2016 (woot!!).  They require limited editions so I have to get that in order now to not limit myself on what I can use when the time rolls around.


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