# so then



## ferny (Jan 17, 2005)

If I'm going to get some cheap b&w film, what developer should I get? Any random cheap stuff? Or is there a big difference between the brands?


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## sbalsama (Jan 17, 2005)

The good ol' D-76 is the traditional stuff. Personally, I've never used it, I've been perfectly happy with my results in XTOL. XTOL comes in 5 liter packets, quite a bit of liquid. You'll get a lot of responses, those two I mentioned should be fine to start. Oh, and D-76 comes in smaller quantities than XTOL.

Also, if you're looking for any fixers, pick up the Heico stuff - it's a cheapo no-name brand, clears any film I've put in it at 2 and a half minutes - can be used with optional hardener (but I don't even know what that's used for!).


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## ferny (Jan 17, 2005)

What are the brand names for those?
I'll either get it from www.jessops.com or www.silverprint.co.uk
I may even take a walk to the nearest photography shop. :shock:


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## oriecat (Jan 17, 2005)

Get some Rodinal, cheap and lasts forever, so they say!   If you don't know how much you will be developing be aware that some developers can go bad and stop working.  Happened to me last spring.   3 rolls of film dead.  So don't buy too much of something if you won't know if it will last.

I've pretty much just used D-76, Ilfosol and Rodinal.  I think D-76 only comes as a powder (not positive tho) and at this point I prefer the ease of mixing liquid chems.


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## oriecat (Jan 17, 2005)

Rodinal is from Agfa
D-76 & XTOL are Kodak
Ilfosol is Ilford


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## sbalsama (Jan 17, 2005)

Sorry about that, they're both Kodak. I don't see the Heico stuff on either site, by the way, but pretty much any rapid fixer will work; just read the directions. May as well take a walk down to that shop of yours, save some money on shipping. Just walk in and grunt something to the effect of "D-76 please" and they should hopefully have it. 

Have fun! Oh, and, you'll learn to the love the smell of the stop


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## ferny (Jan 17, 2005)

Thanks guys, found them.

What's it smell like then? I can make some pretty bad ones on my own.


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## terri (Jan 17, 2005)

Maybe it's just me (should I even say that?) but I don't notice much chemically smell when developing film - that would be D-76, anyway, the only stuff I've used.   And mixed from the powder in the envelope, like Orie was saying - it's easy enough, just do it a few hours before you're ready to use it to make sure it's all dissolved.   

The big smelly stuff comes when you're in the darkroom with open trays full of various developers, stop bath (yummy!!!) fix, etc.     

That's my experience, anyway.


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## oriecat (Jan 17, 2005)

Where do you get that Heico fixer?  I just ran out of fixer and need some more, cheap is good!


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## ferny (Jan 17, 2005)

says google


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## oriecat (Jan 17, 2005)

thanks


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## sbalsama (Jan 17, 2005)

Yeah, I get it up at B&H for about 10 bucks a pop. But, uh, that one he posted is a crazyass size  You'll have to dilute it, so hell that would probably make quite a few gallons. Just search for NH-5 and you'll find the smaller one. Sorry for the late response.


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## sbalsama (Jan 17, 2005)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=21917&is=REG is the smaller size


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## ferny (Jan 18, 2005)

Ahh, a few more questions if that's ok.
Any adcive on stop bath, fixer and wetting agent? Or shall I just buy the cheapest out of the lot?

I don't want to spend loads of money, but I don't want cheap crap that'll be useless if I buy some good film.


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## ksmattfish (Jan 18, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> Ahh, a few more questions if that's ok.
> Any adcive on stop bath, fixer and wetting agent? Or shall I just buy the cheapest out of the lot?
> 
> I don't want to spend loads of money, but I don't want cheap crap that'll be useless if I buy some good film.



If you are mail ordering stop bath it may be cheaper to get one of the varieties that doesn't have the hazardous materials charge.  I buy a quart of Kodak stop whenever I see a store that carries darkroom supplies; I do a lot of developing and printing and a quart still lasts me a very long time.

I like to use a rapid fixer; saves a little bit of time, and actually probably makes stop bath unnecessary.  I was using Kodak rapid fixer, and not mixing in part B (the hardener) because I like to tone my prints.  Now I've been using Photographers' Formulary T-4 rapid fixer.  It's pretty cheap, and goes a long way.

Speaking of the Photographers Formulary, if you don't already have one you should order one of their catalogs.  You can get their products through other dealers, such as Freestyle, but the catalog is a great source of information about darkroom chems.

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=7&tabid=29


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## havoc (Jan 18, 2005)

My best suggestion would be to try a couple different developers. Each one with have its quirks and strengths. Then when you find one that gives you what your looking for stick with it as your main developer.  If your using Kodak film try D76 or Tmax dev. Most are really good developers, If your using Illford or Agfa film i have heard that other devs will give better results. I wanna try the Diafine Dev. myself.


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## ferny (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks for the help.
I don't think I'll play with different developers yet. I will at some point I'm sure, not just yet though.
Delivery at one of those sites is £6 for anything under £100 and nothing for orders over £100. So that's not a big issue. You do need to spend £25 to place an order though.

Thanks for the link Matt. But they're all the way over there, and I'm all the way over here. :mrgreen:


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## terri (Jan 18, 2005)

The Photographer's Formulary is also supposed to be THE place to get chemicals needed for various alternative processes.  I am SO in need of that catalog.    


bwahahaha!!!!  Catalog now on its way....


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## aggiezach (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks for that info about the Photographer's Formulary! I've heard lots of cool things about those guys (and gals too) Just ordered my catalog as well 
are at this point  I like to use Rodinal and Edwal FG7 (with sodium sulfite)
As for developers ferny, I do'nt know if you even c

Zach


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## ferny (Jan 18, 2005)

I see just fine Zach.


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## oriecat (Jan 18, 2005)

Did he forget to finish his sentence?  damn, we're running him ragged here, he just dashes off mid-word...


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## ferny (Jan 18, 2005)

I know. It's terri


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## ferny (Jan 18, 2005)

ble isn;t it.


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## aggiezach (Jan 18, 2005)

geez, thats weird! Didn't mean for the rest of my post to be cut off...

What was meant to say was...

I don't even know if you care to know, but I like to stick with Rodinal and Edwals FG7 (with sodium sulfite) for my developers and Ilford Fixer . I primarily shoot Ilford HP5+ and FG7 is awesome with that film 


Zach


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## terri (Jan 18, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> I know. It's terri




bwahahaha!!!   I WAS going to say Hey!!  Don't blame ME!   till I read your next post.     

I use Ilford fixer, too, since it has no hardener and it's so easy to mix.


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## ferny (Jan 19, 2005)

I just noticed that one of my reels has a ball bearing missing. Whill that make any real difference to it? It still has one, just not two.


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## terri (Jan 19, 2005)

mmmm, my answer is: I don't know.   Maybe not, if you already have a good technique.  But if you have other reels to choose from, I'd stick with them.


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## ferny (Jan 19, 2005)

I've got three. One has a ball missing, the others are fine. Not all reels have these balls do they? :scratch:
It'd be rare for me to want to develop three 35mm films at the same time I suspect anyway.


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## sbalsama (Jan 19, 2005)

Yeah, I rarely shoot and process more than one roll at a time. I only have a one roll paterson tank anyway (as far as plastic is concerned). I do have 2 roll and 4 roll stainless steel tanks though. I can't operate those oldfangled devices -_-


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## aggiezach (Jan 19, 2005)

When I used plastic reels, one of mine didn't have both ball bearings and it seemed to work ok. It wasn't as fast as the others but it still did its job 

Sbalsama, If you really like the stainless tanks you could always get a Hewes 35mm reel. They are BY FAR the easiest reels to load in my experience. They use two little tabs that grab the sprocket holes to help get the film started right! They're GREAT!


Zach


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## terri (Jan 19, 2005)

aggiezach said:
			
		

> When I used plastic reels, one of mine didn't have both ball bearings and it seemed to work ok. It wasn't as fast as the others but it still did its job
> 
> Sbalsama, If you really like the stainless tanks you could always get a Hewes 35mm reel. They are BY FAR the easiest reels to load in my experience. They use two little tabs that grab the sprocket holes to help get the film started right! They're GREAT!
> 
> ...



I'm curious about something....why do the stainless reels (generally speaking) get such a bad rep, if they are in fact so easy to use?   Does it vary by brand, with Hewes being the best design?   I was first taught on stainless, but there were no tabs grabbing the sprocket holes, it was unwieldy and seemed hopeless.   This was with the lights ON!!      Before my next class I'd given up and run off to buy Paterson.


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## ksmattfish (Jan 19, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

> Iwhy do the stainless reels (generally speaking) get such a bad rep, if they are in fact so easy to use?



I think that many beginners find the rachet loading method easier, and it also may provide some assurance that the film is loaded on the reel correctly, and not bent and/or touching other parts of the film.  I think a lot of the trouble with SS reels comes from folks having to first try them out in a public or school darkroom where they are old and beat up, and hard to load.

I mainly use a 64 oz SS tank that'll hold 8 35mm reels or 4 120 reels plus 1 35mm reel.  I only load 6 35mm reels or 3 120 reels, and use approx 50 oz of chems in it at a time.  I like to leave some air space in the tank so that I know the chems are mixing freely when I'm agitating.  When the tanks are filled to the brim with chems I was sometimes getting slight uneven development; usually only noticable in large areas of even tone such as the sky.  I still fill the tank with all of the reels though, to keep the loaded reels  from bouncing around.   

I have a tank that'll hold 18 120 reels (3 gallons of chems to fill), and is used by raising and lowering a rack holding the reels into the chems (in total darkness).  I've only used it a few times, because I don't keep more than a gallons worth of my chems mixed up.  It was cheap on Ebay, and so obnoxious that I had to have it.


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## terri (Jan 19, 2005)

> I think a lot of the trouble with SS reels comes from folks having to first try them out in a public or school darkroom where they are old and beat up, and hard to load.



That was indeed my situation...I don't know how beat up they were, as a total novice sitting there they looked shiny and nice.   But even the instructor struggled a bit.  It didn't help that we watched him develop a roll after he'd loaded onto the SS and the film came out stuck together and blotchy.   NOT an impressive showing.   




> It was cheap on Ebay, and so obnoxious that I had to have it.



   That made me laugh.


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## ferny (Jan 19, 2005)

Having not actually used them yet, how does the ratchet system work? You gently feed the film in then keep twisting the reel? Won't the balls just bump about of the film which won't be moving at all that way? :scratch:


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## sbalsama (Jan 19, 2005)

I definitely prefer the ratchet system, I tried the SS reels in daylight before actually developing myself. Since I had the plastic ratchet, I just used that. I have heard of those Hewes before, probably on this forum, and checked them out. Maaaaaaybe someday, if I ever get a bum roll or something, I'll sit down and really teach myself.

The ratchet system, ferny, you feed that baby in under the balls, which act as grips. Every twist forward (then backward) will advance the film. Very convenient, very easy. Makes loading film reels...fun?


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## oriecat (Jan 19, 2005)

I think it'll be ok without the ball bearing.  I have one reel where I even took them out because I couldn't get it to load the 120 right and I wanted to see if that helped (i think it did, altho I'm not positive, I guess I need to check and see which reel I've been using for the 120...)

Ferny, it would definitely help to practice loading before you try it for the first time.  Do you have any old or bad film you could use?


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## ferny (Jan 19, 2005)

Only everything I shoot. 

Nah, I'll be fine.


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## oriecat (Jan 19, 2005)

Of course you will!  After as perfect as your first emulsion lifts were, I don't doubt you'll master this quickly as well.


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## ksmattfish (Jan 19, 2005)

oriecat said:
			
		

> Ferny, it would definitely help to practice loading before you try it for the first time.  Do you have any old or bad film you could use?



Practice first, or you'll be sorry.  Also, practice with your eyes closed, as it does you no good to practice in the light.  It seems simple, but when you have to do it in the dark, it's suddenly hard.


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## aggiezach (Jan 19, 2005)

ksmattfish said:
			
		

> Practice first, or you'll be sorry.  Also, practice with your eyes closed, as it does you no good to practice in the light.  It seems simple, but when you have to do it in the dark, it's suddenly hard.




Can't emphasize that last part enough! Everything is so much harder when you can't see what your hands are doing 


Zach


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## ksmattfish (Jan 19, 2005)

If I haven't spooled 35mm in a while, I always do a practice roll, and I've developed 1000s of rolls of 35mm.  Once when I was doing the first developing demonstration in a basic photo class I was teaching, I screwed it up and ended up with parts of the roll undeveloped because the film was touching.  The problem is that at first you'll just have a little problem, but as you twist and tweak and over handle the film the edges get mangled, and it gets harder and harder to load the roll.    

120 size is very easy to load onto the dev reel.  They're short and wide and easy; hey, that sounds like a joke...   The only problem with 120 is that if you loaded the camera wrong the images may be really close the either end of the roll.  I've wrecked a few images by getting them too close to the end, and the film clip messes it up.

If you get into trouble after you've opened the cassette, you can stick the film in the developing tank.  That's why it's good to keep them clean and dry.  The go practice, and try again.  Save your plastic photo paoper bags, you can use them as emergency dark bags too.


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## oriecat (Jan 19, 2005)

ksmattfish said:
			
		

> Save your plastic photo paoper bags, you can use them as emergency dark bags too.



Ooh I never thought about that!  I knew there musta been a reason they were piling up on the floor. But I thought it was just laziness.  :mrgreen:


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## ksmattfish (Jan 19, 2005)

oriecat said:
			
		

> Ooh I never thought about that!  I knew there musta been a reason they were piling up on the floor. But I thought it was just laziness.  :mrgreen:



And when you have a whole bunch, you cut them so they lay flat.  Stick them together with gaffers' tape, and you have great stuff to cover windows in your darkroom.

Sometimes you can also get this kind of stuff from your local photo labs.  Big rolls of paper come in big, light proof bags.  It's trash at the lab, but I collected them when I worked at a lab, cut them, taped them, and they've been blocking light for over 5 years now.    I assume most labs would be willing to save them for a customer.


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

It may sound big headed, but... I'm pretty good with my fingers in the dark. I just seem to have a knack for fiddly jobs. I remember Mindy getting grumpy when my first emulsion lift came out ok. :mrgreen:

When you load the reels, why does it have to be in complete darkness? When you load the camera you have to pull out some film, why can't you just pull out that bit, load up the reel and get it started and then switch the light off and carry on?
There's probably a really good reason.


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> It may sound big headed, but... I'm pretty good with my fingers in the dark. I just seem to have a knack for fiddly jobs. I remember Mindy getting grumpy when my first emulsion lift came out ok. :mrgreen:
> 
> When you load the reels, why does it have to be in complete darkness? When you load the camera you have to pull out some film, why can't you just pull out that bit, load up the reel and get it started and then switch the light off and carry on?
> There's probably a really good reason.



The reason is that you have to have a pretty good lead going to ensure it's loaded and ratcheting correctly, and you'll hopelessly fog if not ruin the entire roll if you do that.   Your initial emulsion lifts were dandy, my friend, but trust me, this ain't no emulsion lift.       You can watch what you're doing in that situation.   This is blind work and you must trust by feel alone that you've done it correctly; there's no peeking in later to make sure.   Try it several times in a changing bag just to get the feel of it, I join the others in this advice.


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

I've got to get a changing bag now to? :shock: 

I'm going to try it in the dark first go. I'm a stubborn idiot. I'll let you know that you were right later. :mrgreen:


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## oriecat (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> It may sound big headed, but... I'm pretty good with my fingers in the dark. I just seem to have a knack for fiddly jobs. I remember Mindy getting grumpy when my first emulsion lift came out ok. :mrgreen:



I wasn't grumpy, I was jealous!!


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## oriecat (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> I've got to get a changing bag now to? :shock:
> 
> I'm going to try it in the dark first go. I'm a stubborn idiot. I'll let you know that you were right later. :mrgreen:



If you have a closet or some space where it is totally TOTALLY dark, then you could use that and not need a changing bag.


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

Bah! You're always grumpy. 

That's why I love you. :mrgreen:


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## oriecat (Jan 20, 2005)

:blushing:


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> I've got to get a changing bag now to? :shock:
> 
> I'm going to try it in the dark first go. I'm a stubborn idiot. I'll let you know that you were right later. :mrgreen:



I won't say "I told you so", muffin...I'm not petty that way.   :mrgreen:    

Basic rule of thumb: if you can't see your hand right in front of your face, you're fine.  If your eyes grow accustomed to the dark and you can see objects or lines of light coming in, you're taking a chance.   Good luck, and happy rolling!!!


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## Soulreaver (Jan 20, 2005)

I use SS reels too, but I have my own.Its hopeless to use the ones at school.
*ksmattfish's* advice about closing your eyes to roll is what my teacher always said, it is easier if u have them closed.
Have much to practice yet, my teacher can use the ones at school lightining fast and he doesnt loose a pic either :S


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## ksmattfish (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> When you load the reels, why does it have to be in complete darkness? When you load the camera you have to pull out some film, why can't you just pull out that bit, load up the reel and get it started and then switch the light off and carry on? There's probably a really good reason.



The normal way to load a developing reel is to pop the end off of the casette, remove all the film, trim the leader, and wind or rachet it onto the dev reel.  I've never known anyone to run it directly from the cassette onto the dev reel, but maybe you can do it.


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

Why is it normal to do it that way? 
There's probably a really simple answer for this to, but having not tried it....


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## oriecat (Jan 20, 2005)

I think probably just because of the risk of scratching the film, running it through the cassette again?  You could probably try it that way, but you'd have to be careful how much you pulled out, so you don't ruin your first few frames.


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

oriecat said:
			
		

> I think probably just because of the risk of scratching the film, running it through the cassette again?  You could probably try it that way, but you'd have to be careful how much you pulled out, so you don't ruin your first few frames.


Orie's right; you cannot trust those cassettes not to scratch your film - and I mean, the possibility of 2 or 3 long, thin lines from start to finish.   Bye-bye, film.

I agree with what you're thinking, Ferny, and I wondered aloud the same things when I first started.   It's a simple enough process, but I'd agree it probably *could* have been made simpler, especially if you could trust the ends of the film canisters.   But - ya can't.


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

That strikes me as odd to. The cassettes I use go straight back into their pot after being shot. The only reason I can see for it scratching is if a bit of grit gets on the felt, which I really doubt would happen. It it was going to scratch the film, I would expect it to do it when it's in the camera and being pulled at speed.

Of course, I am new to this.


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

You're stalling.    :twisted:


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

You're confusing.

What'd mean there?


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> You're confusing.
> 
> What'd mean there?



It means: get in that closet and load the reel, already!


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## ferny (Jan 20, 2005)

I'm not in any closet. Didn't you see my thread? :scratch:

:mgreen:


I've got to buy some film, some chemicals, some jugs and then find something to shoot.


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## terri (Jan 20, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> I'm not in any closet. Didn't you see my thread? :scratch:
> 
> :mgreen:
> 
> ...



Sweetie, we know you came out of the closet today.  It's all good.   You can still be a good photographer.   :mrgreen:    

Okay, okay...I thought you had everything and were just delaying the moment.


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