# Ethical question? re: boudoir & retouching



## jowensphoto (Jul 16, 2016)

I recently shot a boudoir session that I am oh so proud of. I got the chance to work with an old friend, pushed boundaries further than ever before and got some great results.

I aam at the editing phase. I have noticed that one of the subject's breasts is noticeably larger than the other. Am I within ethical bounds to make them more symmetrical? 

For what it's worth, we did discuss editing style during the shoot, (although we didn't broach retouching), she said not to worry and that she trusts my eye.

All thoughts and opinions welcome 

Good to be here again.


----------



## Gary A. (Jul 16, 2016)

Generally, the only genre retouching/manipulation is not only frowned upon but is actually prohibited, is journalism.  All else is pretty much fair game.  Manipulate to your own ethical rules.


----------



## tirediron (Jul 16, 2016)

Can you ask her?  Most people are aware of their body "issues" and as long as it's approached with some sensitivity, will be okay. That said, if you don't feel comfortable asking, then I would go with some adjustment, but maybe not complete.


----------



## john.margetts (Jul 17, 2016)

One side of the body being larger than the other is both natural and normal - I would leave well alone.


----------



## unpopular (Jul 17, 2016)

where is Jessica these days anyway?


----------



## JoeW (Jul 17, 2016)

First of all, that sort of thing is pretty normal.  I would only liquify on that if you feel it is an issue with the photo.

Second, it's fair game (and actually expected) for most boudoir work.  The subjects WANT you to make them look thinner, younger, sexier (through your lighting, posing and finally, your post-production technique).

Finally, this is a friend.  So when it's a TF situation or a friend or someone that is more than just a client, it's usually good to discuss "what can I edit/change?"  Now, since she said "I trust your eye"...what you might do are two versions of the photo (one, real sizing, the second, resized).  Not b/c that is expected of you.  But b/c this is a friend AND you can probably learn from this.  You may show it to her, you both look at it and go "nah, let's go with real, not resized") and that will be a lesson for boudoir work.


----------



## Vtec44 (Jul 18, 2016)

It depends on you.  Are you an artist with your own artistic vision or are you just there to capture something as realistically as possible?  I do a lot of editing work, but they are just to enhance the person's existing form, not to create something completely different.  Most of my clients don't notice what I did since it's very minimal.


----------



## Solarflare (Jul 18, 2016)

unpopular said:


> Why men should steer clear of the boudoir.


 ?!? Explain ?!?



unpopular said:


> You all realize this is a zombie thread, right?


 Last time Saturday ?!? Which is just two days ago ? I wouldnt call it a zombie thread just yet ...


----------



## Overread (Jul 18, 2016)

Unpopular I think your donkey needs new glasses - this thread is only 2 days old. So lets refocus on the main topic of the thread in a respectful manner.


----------



## JoeW (Jul 18, 2016)

unpopular said:


> Why men should steer clear of the boudoir.



Hmmm...interesting.  You first posted a one-line response "why men should steer clear of the boudoir" which was right after mine and after you marked "disagree" to my post.  You then posted that a thread that was started about 24 hours ago (now, about 48) from a long-time member who's reasonably active here on TPF is a "zombie thread."  Care to explain why you feel my post was so wrong?  

Yep, many women feel more comfortable posing in lingerie or nude for a female photographer.  But that's not true in all cases and there are plenty instances of male photographers who do lovely boudoir work.

Is it that you disagree with my statement that many women have breasts that are not exactly the same size or shape--that they can vary?  Or that in most boudoir work, the client wants the photographer to enhance their appearance?  Or was it my statement that in any kind of TF work with a friend, you may want to have a discussion with them about what direction you go, or provide them an A and a B version in some instances?

And just for the sake of clarity, when I refer to "boudoir" I'm talking about a type of photography that isn't just a woman in lingerie (that could easily be a catalog shoot or glamour or pinup depending upon the poses, the lighting, and the expressions).  When I refer to boudoir, I'm referring to a type/style of photography that usually involves soft lighting, often (but not always) a narrow DoF, a very romantic or sexy feel to the photography, usually in a bedroom or dressing room (though not always).


----------



## unpopular (Jul 18, 2016)

Sorry guys. I thought I saw this post in the past and must have misread the "join date" with the post "date". Weird how that is.

I'll get my eyes checked.

I also assumed that the content of the message was one thing when it was in fact the other previous thread I assumed it was. I'll delete my mistaken posts so not to derail.

Sorry guys. You know what they say about people who assume, right?


----------



## tirediron (Jul 18, 2016)

unpopular said:


> ...Sorry guys. You know what they say about people who assume, right?


They're a glasses-wearing donkey with purple hair?


----------



## vintagesnaps (Jul 18, 2016)

Is it at least partly the way she's posed in one or some? or noticeable in all? I'd probably do more than one edit of several photos and let her pick what she likes.


----------



## dennybeall (Jul 18, 2016)

If balance is decided - go up, not down....


----------



## jowensphoto (Jul 21, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> Is it at least partly the way she's posed in one or some? or noticeable in all? I'd probably do more than one edit of several photos and let her pick what she likes.



The pose and angle definitely the issue with this one photo. It's the only straight on shot we did (angled wouldn't have worked for this image) so it's really the only one with "the problem" - in quotes because asymmetry is natural, not a problem.

I like the idea of doing multiple edits and seeing what she likes. 

This is just one shot of many that will be made into a book, but it's a really cool effing shot. Too much bewbs to post lol


----------



## jowensphoto (Jul 21, 2016)

dennybeall said:


> If balance is decided - go up, not down....



This is good advice. I went the other way. Will rework following this tip


----------



## jowensphoto (Jul 21, 2016)

unpopular said:


> where is Jessica these days anyway?



Here. LOL.


----------



## runnah (Aug 8, 2016)

Man I was expecting some heavy ethical quandary.

Even them out, if she gives you guff knock over her mailbox as you drive away.


----------



## TCampbell (Aug 16, 2016)

If these images are intended for private use then I don't think there's an ethics issue.   You mention that in some shots the difference is noticeable and I might argue that it can still be noticeable at a subconscious level.  If you do a senior portrait and the person has acne, the client is generally hoping that you will magically make that acne disappear in the final product (and we did this even in the days of film... when it took more effort to fix.)  The point is... people want to be viewed as attractive in the final product.

It's somewhat well-established that most people don't have symmetric faces... one eye or ear (or both) are higher than the other and if you were to take a straight-on shot, cut it in two down the center of the face, and then flip (mirror) one side over the other -- with a bit of transparency (opacity at 50%) then you'll notice the eyes and ears don't match up.

What's more interesting is that much of the time if a person is looking for the symmetry they may not notice that the face isn't really symmetric -- not at a conscious level.  But when they show the "real" face vs. the "photoshop'd" face (one side mirrored onto the other) then test subjects will claim that the person is "more attractive" when it turns out they were mathematically symmetric.   This seems to be true even though the test subject doesn't claim to notice the asymmetry at a conscious level - it seems there brain does notice the difference and makes a subjective judgment in the attractiveness of the person based on their level of symmetric perfection/imperfection.

Throwing away all of the "ethics" around the edit or the idea that you are somehow manipulating the mind of the person viewing the image... the tests seem to indicate that if the symmetry is perfect then a person viewing such a photo will believe the person is more attractive as a result of the symmetry.  And since the client is generally hoping to be portrayed as attractive, then they're probably happy to have you apply the edit that achieves that result.


----------



## randymckown (Sep 2, 2016)

Ask yourself .. Could I have posed her differently or used another lens, camera angle, etc. that would have corrected the issue at the time? If yes, feel free to modify her. If not and what you want to do is essentially perform digital cosmetic surgery .. get permission. The client might not want you to. It's best to ask these things before during a pre-consult. It's also best to word things carefully .. for example you ask "Do you have any body modifications that you want made in Photoshop or do you want to be 100% natural?" .. not .. "So I notice your boobs are really off. You want me to align and balance those girls in Photoshop for ya?"


----------



## PersistentNomad (Sep 2, 2016)

I would say that retouching and re-shaping is within bounds, provided it still looks like her. I had a client that we photographed and there was this one roll that we really didn't see when we were there "live" and shooting, but then once we were in post process it was way obvious. So, we minimized it and it looked more natural and like how the client looks. 
So, my advice is if it makes it look awkward and not like how you see her in real life, adjust. If not, then don't.


----------



## photo1x1.com (Sep 18, 2016)

When talking to our clients about retouching, I always tell them that we retouch the pictures to get them how we see the client. Cameras are incorruptible, the human eye is not. Very, very often different eye size, a crooked nose, etc. are much more visible on pictures, than in real life, because usually you don't stare at somebodys nose, boobs, etc. But with a picture you can and you will stare, Imperfections attract the eye. 
So I'd retouch it, especially if it's not as visible on all your other shots. Maybe your friend hasn't realized a big difference by now and once she sees the unretouched image, she might find it more disturbing.
Just my 2c.


----------

