# P mode?



## exemplaria (Nov 1, 2012)

Anyone here ever shoot in P mode on a regular basis?  When and why?  I use A, S and M with varying degrees of frequency, but don't even fully understand P mode (I know I could RTFM to understand it, but I'm curious when it's even used).  I've got to assume Nikon wouldn't include if there wasn't a decent use for it.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Nov 1, 2012)

There is a decent use for it - help nooBs with advanced (P) spray and pray methodologies  *




*


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## jwbryson1 (Nov 1, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> There is a decent use for it - help nooBs with advanced (P) spray and pray methodologies  *
> 
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> 
> *




There ya have it!  :thumbup:


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## ronlane (Nov 1, 2012)

I use it when I hand the camera to my wife or someone else for them to take pictures. JMHO, it's point and shoot.


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## panblue (Nov 1, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> There is a decent use for it - help nooBs with advanced (P) spray and pray methodologies
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Not just noobs ;-) ..unless that's (no)t (o)vertly (b)othered..


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## exemplaria (Nov 1, 2012)

ronlane said:


> I use it when I hand the camera to my wife or someone else for them to take pictures. JMHO, it's point and shoot.



This is actually another question I wanted to ask - how do people handle this situation?  Is P preferrable to "auto"?


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## unpopular (Nov 1, 2012)

Av/Tv is the new M

I wish someone could explain to me what makes Program mode so inferior beyond a vague "lack of control".


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## 2WheelPhoto (Nov 1, 2012)

P will allow slightly more control than auto, have you read the manual or tried google


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## Big Mike (Nov 1, 2012)

Yes...P is a 'fully auto' mode but it allows for more control than the green FULLY AUTO mode.

For example, in the green full auto mode you can't set the metering mode, you can't manually select a focus point, you can't choose RAW, you can't set exposure compensation (which means you likely can't get a true 'proper' exposure).  I don't know if you can set the focus mode (AF-C, AF-S) but you can't pick your WB.  I'm not sure if you can pick your ISO either.

In P mode, you can do all of those things...the camera just gives you the shutter speed and aperture.  And in P mode, you have the option to 'shift' it.  

In other words, if all you use is the green fully auto mode...you might as well return your camera, send half the money to me and buy yourself a cheap P&S camera.


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## unpopular (Nov 1, 2012)

why is auto mode always green anyway?


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## ronlane (Nov 1, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> In other words, if all you use is the green fully auto mode...you might as well return your camera, send half the money to me and buy yourself a cheap P&S camera.



:shock:


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

The thing I think people fail to understand is that you really can end up getting the same results regardless of which mode you use, they just attack the problem from different angles.  

P mode starts with what it thinks the best combination of shutter speed and aperture are, and you can then adjust from there.  So, for example when you know you're just going to want relatively straightforward exposures, it may be easier (or in terms that won't offend experienced photographers 'a more efficient workflow') to start with P and adjust as necessary.  So, you see what P gives you, and you decide you want a bit more shallow DoF, then just adjust, P will fix the shutter speed for you, or you can change the ISO.  I've began experimenting with P when doing street photography sometimes.  In street, sometimes the moment is on you before you have a chance to get everything set up.  If you see a shot coming and you can anticipate it, sure, then switch to manual or A or something.  But having your camera ready to go with a relatively high ISO and in P mode guarantees that if something comes on you in a hurry, you get the moment.  Which is much more important than some ephemeral badge of honor of shooting it in manual.  

A (Av) mode attacks the problem by again giving you what it considers a proper exposure, but holding the aperture constant.  As aperture is usually more important for artistic elements in photography, this is often something photographers do want control over.  You can then decide you want a darker or brighter exposure than the camera thinks by using exposure compensation.  Really, if you use EC heavily, A or S mode are literally the same exact thing as shooting in manual, just that the camera changes it's setting first and then you adjust, instead of having to adjust whenever the scene changes.  For some shooting scenarios A is more efficient, in some M is more efficient.  One isn't more of a 'true photographer' skill than the other.  Just different approaches to the same problem.

S (Tv) is pretty much the exact same thing as A, except it gets used a bit less, because usually shutter speed doesn't change the artistic feel of the photo, unless you're using flash or shooting fast moving subjects.

M is sort of obvious in that you need to decide if the settings need to be changed.

The funniest thing in the world to me are the people who "always shoot in M, because I'm not an amateur", but essentially just shoot to center their light meter every time.  Don't they realize that if you shoot that way, you're essentially shooting in A mode, but forcing yourself to turn the command dial instead of letting the camera do it?  If you're going to shoot in M, then the whole point is ignoring what the in camera light meter is reading to some extent.  The whole point of shooting in M is to use the light meter as a tool, but not a thing that tells you how to shoot.  Yet some people will center the in camera light meter on literally every single shot they shoot in M.  That drives me more crazy than the people who shoot in full auto.


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## unpopular (Nov 1, 2012)

ronlane said:


> Big Mike said:
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> > In other words, if all you use is the green fully auto mode...you might as well return your camera, send half the money to me and buy yourself a cheap P&S camera.
> ...



^^ agree. that quote is pretty reaching.

---

P mode offers the same level of control as Tv and Av mode. It's a bit unsettling to use, and this might be the confusion, but having looked into it a bit, it's really not the fauxtographic technique people make it out as.


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

I use it almost all the time. I leave my cameras defaulted to P mode. Think of it as A(Av) and S(Tv) modes available simultaneously. In P mode the camera uses the meter input and then sets both the shutter speed and f/stop based on a program that's typically biased toward keeping the shutter speed fast enough for hand-holding and otherwise selecting medium values for both shutter and aperture. The advantage when using a modern camera is that you typically have a wheel you can turn that will shift you through the entire available EV set for your ISO and the metered light. In that way P mode is A(Av) priority if you use the wheel to move to the f/stop you want and it's also S(Tv) priority if you move to the shutter speed you want -- that makes it very fast and efficient.

For my camera that wheel is directly behind the shutter release and is accessible with a slight shift of my index finger. In the event that you deem it necessary to shift the exposure from the camera's metered exposure, all modern cameras are equipped with an EC control. For my camera that's a wheel directly under my right hand thumb. So with the camera in P mode I'm ready to set the f/stop and/or shutter speed I want and also compensate as needed for the metered exposure. P offers the greatest flexibility, speed and efficiency giving it an edge over the other options.

All the control modes on a modern camera have a place. S(Tv) can be critical for fast moving sports action when you want to be certain of your shutter speed. A(Av) is the one it wouldn't hurt to lose. M is necessary when using flash (real flash) and doing things like panoramas. M is also an important mode for a lot of male photographers who otherwise wish they had a longer lens.

Joe


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ronlane said:
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> > Big Mike said:
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I think Mike is referring to full auto.  where it literally controls every singe aspect, allowing for no deviation, except focal length, where the lens is aimed, and when the shutter is pressed.


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> I use it almost all the time. I leave my cameras defaulted to P mode. Think of it as A(Av) and S(Tv) modes available simultaneously. In P mode the camera uses the meter input and then sets both the shutter speed and f/stop based on a program that's typically biased toward keeping the shutter speed fast enough for hand-holding and otherwise selecting medium values for both shutter and aperture. The advantage when using a modern camera is that you typically have a wheel you can turn that will shift you through the entire available EV set for your ISO and the metered light. In that way P mode is A(Av) priority if you use the wheel to move to the f/stop you want and it's also S(Tv) priority if you move to the shutter speed you want -- that makes it very fast and efficient.
> 
> For my camera that wheel is directly behind the shutter release and is accessible with a slight shift of my index finger. In the event that you deem it necessary to shift the exposure from the camera's metered exposure, all modern cameras are equipped with an EC control. For my camera that's a wheel directly under my right hand thumb. So with the camera in P mode I'm ready to set the f/stop and/or shutter speed I want and also compensate as needed for the metered exposure. P offers the greatest flexibility, speed and efficiency giving it an edge over the other options.
> 
> ...



M is VERY important if you want your images in a series to have a consistent feel to them.  Try shooting an event in A, P or S and then see how the feel of the pictures jumps all over the place as the camera constantly changes its mind on how to expose the shot, when the exposures should actually be relatively similar.  

Also, as you gain experience as a photographer, you can look at a scene and know what you want from it in manual.  Using P mode and then adjusting can in fact be less efficient, because you are having to get the exposure it's suggesting, then make changes, and then hope that the light didn't change to throw off what it thought.  P mode is good because it's instantaneous, but if you have to change it much at all, it's actually more efficient to just use manual (assuming you have dual command wheels).


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## SCraig (Nov 1, 2012)

exemplaria said:


> Anyone here ever shoot in P mode on a regular basis?  When and why?  I use A, S and M with varying degrees of frequency, but don't even fully understand P mode (I know I could RTFM to understand it, but I'm curious when it's even used).  I've got to assume Nikon wouldn't include if there wasn't a decent use for it.


Nope.  I don't even know what it does or how it works, nor have I ever had the urge to find out.


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## 480sparky (Nov 1, 2012)

I use P when I'm shooting fast action stuff, especially in sunlight or bright areas.  AFAIK, it's just like Auto 'cept no auto- pop-up flash.


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

SCraig said:


> exemplaria said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone here ever shoot in P mode on a regular basis?  When and why?  I use A, S and M with varying degrees of frequency, but don't even fully understand P mode (I know I could RTFM to understand it, but I'm curious when it's even used).  I've got to assume Nikon wouldn't include if there wasn't a decent use for it.
> ...



I was that way until about a week or two ago, I decided it had to have some use.  So basically I made myself use only P for natural light or TTL flash for the last however many days.  I like it for street.  I just plain get more shots with it that are usable when I'm shooting in an unpredictable environment.  Now, if you're doing the whole 'find your frame and wait for the actors to align' then just quickly shift over to M, sure.  But it certainly has its uses.  I was surprised at how many respected street and photojourn guys/gals use it in certain situations.  

That being said, I think it is important that you don't use P mode as a crutch, but simply a tool that has its best applications in certain situations.  You shouldn't be using it all the time, or you're probably either being inefficient (sometimes making adjustments out of P mode, when the camera is way off from how you envision the shot is like going around your elbow to get to... you know) or taking shots that could be better (ie always letting the camera decide).


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## pixmedic (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> The thing I think people fail to understand is that you really can end up getting the same results regardless of which mode you use, they just attack the problem from different angles.
> 
> P mode starts with what it thinks the best combination of shutter speed and aperture are, and you can then adjust from there.  So, for example when you know you're just going to want relatively straightforward exposures, it may be easier (or in terms that won't offend experienced photographers 'a more efficient workflow') to start with P and adjust as necessary.  So, you see what P gives you, and you decide you want a bit more shallow DoF, then just adjust, P will fix the shutter speed for you, or you can change the ISO.  I've began experimenting with P when doing street photography sometimes.  In street, sometimes the moment is on you before you have a chance to get everything set up.  If you see a shot coming and you can anticipate it, sure, then switch to manual or A or something.  But having your camera ready to go with a relatively high ISO and in P mode guarantees that if something comes on you in a hurry, you get the moment.  Which is much more important than some ephemeral badge of honor of shooting it in manual.
> 
> ...



^^this should be a sticky.


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## swiftparkour94 (Nov 1, 2012)

Just throwing this out there, I would never shoot in P mode for street. Why? Because I shoot RAW. I have to be quick and shoot at a higher shutter speed that'll make the whole shot look very underexposed if I'm worried about blur and easy to fix in post. I just have to pay attention to the histogram. I wouldn't want something changing my plans by compensating exposure values which may ruin the exposure (this applies when zone focusing too with a high f-stop).


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

480sparky said:


> I use P when I'm shooting fast action stuff, especially in sunlight or bright areas.  AFAIK, it's just like Auto 'cept no pop-up flash.



P mode doesn't choose ISO or WB for you.  Full auto does.  There is also no flash auto, which is auto,but without a flash.  If you have your camera set to auto ISO and auto WB, P and no flash auto are the exact same as far as I know.


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> Just throwing this out there, I would never shoot in P mode for street. Why? Because I shoot RAW. I have to be quick and shoot at a higher shutter speed that'll make the whole shot look very underexposed if I'm worried about blur and easy to fix in post. I just have to pay attention to the histogram. I wouldn't want something changing my plans by compensating exposure values which may ruin the exposure (this applies when zone focusing too with a high f-stop).



wait, what?  You'd rather get a bad exposure that has to be fixed in post than shoot in P mode?  Shooting underexposed images, even when shooting in raw (also, raw isn't an acronym and shouldn't be capitalized), is a recipe for noisy images.  If you never shoot in P mode for street, it better be because you're ungodly fast with the command wheels or always wait for your shots, not because you can 'just fix it in post'.  

Can you give a tangible reason why shooting in P mode is actually bad?

edit: and yes, I'm aware that the phrase "Just throwing this out there, I would never shoot in P mode for street. Why? Because I shoot RAW." is probably just him trolling again, because it's that funny of a statement, but some people might take it seriously, so...


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## amolitor (Nov 1, 2012)

I assume that what he means is that he's ok with being +/- a stop or two, since he shoots raw, and that shutter speed is what matters. There are, of course, a bunch of variations that would work fine for him here. Still, it's arguably pretty convenient to leave the shutter at the minimum acceptable speed, and then shoot M while mashing the aperture around until the needle is 'close enough'.


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## unpopular (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> unpopular said:
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I know but there are other advantages to a DSLR other than full manual. Many P&S offer full manual.


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

amolitor said:


> I assume that what he means is that he's ok with being +/- a stop or two, since he shoots raw, and that shutter speed is what matters. There are, of course, a bunch of variations that would work fine for him here. Still, it's arguably pretty convenient to leave the shutter at the minimum acceptable speed, and then shoot M while mashing the aperture around until the needle is 'close enough'.



Sure, but he literally said 'very underexposed'.  and P mode's whole point is that it picks a fairly good minimum acceptable shutter speed.  But then again, that whole post is so weirdly worded that I literally have no idea what he's talking about, so perhaps I'll just wait for him to clarify (if at all) before I comment further.


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## pixmedic (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> Just throwing this out there, I would never shoot in P mode for street. Why? Because I shoot RAW. I have to be quick and shoot at a higher shutter speed that'll make the whole shot look very underexposed if I'm worried about blur and easy to fix in post. I just have to pay attention to the histogram. I wouldn't want something changing my plans by compensating exposure values which may ruin the exposure (this applies when zone focusing too with a high f-stop).



shooting RAW? i recommend a condom. less risk that way. as for shooting quick...I really cant help you there. I would talk to your doctor.


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Also, as you gain experience as a photographer, you can look at a scene and know what you want from it in manual.  Using P mode and then adjusting can in fact be less efficient, because you are having to get the exposure it's suggesting, then make changes, and then hope that the light didn't change to throw off what it thought.  P mode is good because it's instantaneous, but if you have to change it much at all, it's actually more efficient to just use manual (assuming you have dual command wheels).



I'll agree as long as you are then entirely ignoring the camera meter and not basing your exposure on any kind of reading from the built-in light meter. I'm quite comfortable doing that but I doubt too many photographers are, and as soon as you're going to rely on the camera meter then P mode gets the edge in efficiency over a large sampling of photos.

Joe


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## shadowlands (Nov 1, 2012)

I use it sometimes when I'm traveling and want something like "full auto" since the D300 doesn't have a full auto setting.


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> Just throwing this out there, I would never shoot in P mode for street. Why? Because I shoot RAW. I have to be quick and shoot at a higher shutter speed that'll make the whole shot look very underexposed if I'm worried about blur and easy to fix in post. I just have to pay attention to the histogram. I wouldn't want something changing my plans by compensating exposure values which may ruin the exposure (this applies when zone focusing too with a high f-stop).



Woah! I only shoot raw as well -- mostly in P mode, but under the circumstance you note I'd consider using S(Tv). What I would not do is deliberately get underexposed photos.

Joe


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > Also, as you gain experience as a photographer, you can look at a scene and know what you want from it in manual.  Using P mode and then adjusting can in fact be less efficient, because you are having to get the exposure it's suggesting, then make changes, and then hope that the light didn't change to throw off what it thought.  P mode is good because it's instantaneous, but if you have to change it much at all, it's actually more efficient to just use manual (assuming you have dual command wheels).
> ...



I don't entirely disregard the light meter, but I don't let it decide how I shoot either.  What I often do is have it in spot meter mode, meter out the various zones in the frame point by point, see how many stops apart they are and then pick what I want my exposure to be based on that.  

So, say for instance my subject is lit by reflected light, there is some direct lighting and some shadows, I'll point my meter at those three areas, and decide how I need the subject lit.  Perhaps for some shots I would want the shadow detail and just let the directly lit portions blow out.  In some scenarios I'd want to avoid blown highlights and let the shadows be underexposed.  You're still using the meter then, but you're not letting the meter decide how you shoot either.  You're simply using the meter to give you light readings.


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## swiftparkour94 (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm not trolling. I feel like I should make a whole video showing you guys how I do what I do. I'll see if I can rig my GoPro to my DSLR so you can see what I look for in a scene, show the shots taken, then the after shot beside it after editing. I'll probably do this far from now as I currently don't have time to make a new video. If it matters, I keep at least 95% of my candid shots b&w so even if their is noise in the image I don't find it bad at all, some would even say that it adds to it. When I brighten them up, I don't feel like much has been taken away from the quality and I think I sorta threw you guys off...I don't make it super super under exposed, only under exposed to where details aren't too dark to bring back. I'd take a shot like that over a blurry one I can't fix up well enough to keep in post.


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> I'm not trolling. I feel like I should make a whole video showing you guys how I do what I do. I'll see if I can rig my GoPro to my DSLR so you can see what I look for in a scene, show the shots taken, then the after shot beside it after editing. I'll probably do this far from now as I currently don't have time to make a new video. If it matters, I keep at least 95% of my candid shots b&w so even if their is noise in the image I don't find it bad at all, some would even say that it adds to it. When I brighten them up, I don't feel like much has been taken away from the quality and I think I sorta threw you guys off...I don't make it super super under exposed, only under exposed to where details aren't too dark to bring back. I'd take a shot like that over a blurry one I can't fix up well enough to keep in post.




why do you think P mode gives you blurry photos?  If P mode is giving you blurry photos, you need to practice not swinging the camera around wildly.  P mode is made so that even really shaky hands get pretty sharp pictures.  I usually find that the shutter speed P mode gives me is nearly 3/4 a stop faster than what I could probably get away with if I was being careful.


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## swiftparkour94 (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:
			
		

> why do you think P mode gives you blurry photos?  If P mode is giving you blurry photos, you need to practice not swinging the camera around wildly.  P mode is made so that even really shaky hands get pretty sharp pictures.  I usually find that the shutter speed P mode gives me is nearly 3/4 a stop faster than what I could probably get away with if I was being careful.



No, sometimes I have to swing it fast to get a particular shot. Not every moment is going to wait for you so I like under exposed then correcting it in post, my lens doesn't have IS. Works for me and that's how I like to do it. I think it's more of a personal preference thing. I haven't had to do much of this yet though because here in the central valley it's sunny a lot. The times I have, the shutter speed was a tad bit faster so it wasn't super dark or light


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> fjrabon said:
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So, you don't have time to stop and hold your camera steady for a split second, but you do have time to bump the shutter speed up to where you're underexposed?  

I'm so confused here.


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Ysarex said:
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And in P mode I'm doing precisely the same thing; I use the meter but I decide on the exposure and the shutter/aperture selection. I'm just doing a smidge less physical knob turning by using P mode.

Joe


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## unpopular (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> swiftparkour94 said:
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Or spot meter off the grass, the sky opposite the sun or +1 off the sidewalk?

Is finding a reference really that hard for people???


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## swiftparkour94 (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:
			
		

> So, you don't have time to stop and hold your camera steady for a split second, but you do have time to bump the shutter speed up to where you're underexposed?
> 
> I'm so confused here.



Exactly, I can switch it with one hand with the camera down at my side whilst walking. I am much more steady when I want them to have eye contact with the camera because I allow some time to elapse. My style for that is much harder to explain and hardly anyone gets it. Here's an example of one of those


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> fjrabon said:
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Sure, but the issue becomes with a series of pictures.  In P mode you'd have to adjust every single one.  In manual you can get your basic setting, and then unless the lighting changes you just snap the next one.  In P mode, if the camera's light meter reads some minor change in the lighting, it's going to attempt to 'fix it'.  So, for instance say you're shooting a wedding reception indoors.  The DJ lights might flash jsut a bit differently, and all of the sudden your camera decided to make a completely different exposure.  

And I'm not sure you're doing less physical knob turning in P mode to begin with.  Because you're fiddling with one knob to get the aperture/SS balance right, and the other knob to get the total exposure right.  TO the extent it works like manual, it's just as much button turning as manual.

Going back to what I was saying, manual is better when you want your exposure settings to be consistent and not jump around with every little change in light in the field of view.  P works when you're shooting quick one off shots, and you have no worry about consistency, you just want the camera to get you in the ballpark fast enough.  

Again, all the non-scene modes have their strengths and weaknesses, the key is knowing when which each is the most efficient tool for the job.

My basic guide:

1) Manual: when you have time to set the shot up, when you're using manual flash, when you need consistency from exposure to exposure, when the shooting conditions are really going to give the camera's computer a hard time in picking the right exposure.
2) Aperture priority: When you need precise control of depth of field, but otherwise just need a relatively standard exposure.  You can use exposure compensation a bit here and there, but if you're using it all the time, it's probably more efficient to just shoot in manual
3) Shutter priority: Your shutter has to be above a certain speed, depth of field isn't a concern, and you need as low of an ISO as possible.  
4) programmed auto: you need a fairly standard exposure and shot to shot consistency isn't a concern.  If you're changing the settings it gives you drastically, then you're effectively shooting in manual, but without the consistency of manual.  Things can jump around without you really having any idea that they were going to, until it was 'too late'.  

The problem I have with using P mode unless it's really by far the most efficient way is that it can surprise you too much.  With manual, after you've taken one shot, you basically know what the following exposures are going to look like.  With P, it can just decide to drastically change things out of nowhere.  You take one shot and it looks great, you take the next shot and all of the sudden it's exposing it with drastically more DoF or another half stop of light.  With manual, nothing changes unless I change it.  That's both the good and bad of both modes.  With manual, you have to change it, which is sometimes an inconvenience, but with P, the camera changes it, which is sometimes annoying.  It remains my opinion that if you only use 1-2 of your modes, you're not using your camera to the full extent of its abilities, and you're making your life as a photographer harder than it needs to be.


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Ysarex said:
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In P mode you don't have to adjust every single shot -- only the first one, just like manual. Assume the camera in P mode calculates a shutter of 1/250 at f/11 and I'd rather be at f/5.6. Index finger turn of the wheel and the camera is now set at 1/1000 at f/5.6 and I take the photo. Take another photo and the camera doesn't jump back to 1/250 at f/11 it stays at 1/1000 at f/5.6. If a minor lighting change occurs those settings will not change to a completely different exposure, especially since I also keep my meter set for center or spot.



fjrabon said:


> And I'm not sure you're doing less physical knob turning in P mode to begin with.  Because you're fiddling with one knob to get the aperture/SS balance right, and the other knob to get the total exposure right.  TO the extent it works like manual, it's just as much button turning as manual.



When I decide to intervene with the meter's calculated exposure our knob turning is equal -- it's a tie. I do that pretty often but not 100% of the time. In more than 1/2 of my photos I'm very happy to accept the meter's calculated exposure and so I'm just a simple one wheel nudge away from ready or if I'm shooting a series of photos we're again tied as my exposure setting won't change unless the lighting changes. A few thousand photos later I've turned a few less knobs. This isn't a big deal at all and I wouldn't bother with these threads except for the __________ who start that, "I'm a real photographer and I only shoot manual" cr*p. They're not helping people who ask and want to learn. For the record you're not one of them.



fjrabon said:


> ....The problem I have with using P mode unless it's really by far the most efficient way is that it can surprise you too much.  With manual, after you've taken one shot, you basically know what the following exposures are going to look like.  With P, it can just decide to drastically change things out of nowhere.  You take one shot and it looks great, you take the next shot and all of the sudden it's exposing it with drastically more DoF or another half stop of light.  With manual, nothing changes unless I change it.  That's both the good and bad of both modes.  With manual, you have to change it, which is sometimes an inconvenience, but with P, the camera changes it, which is sometimes annoying.  It remains my opinion that if you only use 1-2 of your modes, you're not using your camera to the full extent of its abilities, and you're making your life as a photographer harder than it needs to be.



P mode never surprises me. Machines and computer programs are designed to behave in predictable ways and they do. Cameras set to P mode do not decide to drastically change things out of nowhere -- that's nonsense. Today's camera's in fact behave with fantastic predictable consistency. In the OP's original post she said, "I've got to assume Nikon wouldn't include if there wasn't a decent use for it." That's a fair assumption. Nikon's camera engineers have a pretty good idea of how to design a really usable camera. My camera was designed by Canon engineers and it works the same way.

Joe


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## Ysarex (Nov 1, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


> fjrabon said:
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So that's a really bad exposure. I assume this is an example of your capture before editing. Have you encountered the exposure practice in digital of ETTR which produces superior results? You're going in the opposite direction here.

Joe


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## fjrabon (Nov 1, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> fjrabon said:
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If you've ever shot under cycling power lights, you will see how crazy auto modes can get, what tends to happen is they meter one split second, then the cycle changes, and they basically hit the exposure on the exact opposite part of the pwoer cycle, causing the exposures to go CRAZY.  Same thing with concerts.  The stage lights drive the camera's meter crazy, in P mode one second you'll have the singer wildly overexposed, and in the next drastically underexposed.  

Sure, for about 70% of most people's shots, it just really doesn't matter which mode they use, as long as they know how to use whatever mode they're in.  25% of the time it doesn't matter very much.  But about 5% of the time what mode you are in can make or break how efficiently you can get the shot.  I guess you're saying that 70% of the time that it really doesn't matter, and most of that 15% it only matters a little bit, you're in P mode.  Sure, I really don't think that matters one way or the other in that case, so I guess we agree there.


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## CherylL (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for starting this thread and all of the responses.  I've been shooting in Av mode with a T4i for a few months.  The focusing is off in the Auto mode is why I was primarily in Av mode.  Since this thread I tried shooting in Priority mode.  With Auto I can't change any settings and not even the on cam flash.  I have that set at -2/3 flash when Av mode. (Yes I need a speed light.)  My daughter has used my T4i in Auto and she noticed a focusing problem compared to our older Nikon D40.  Is this because the D40 has one focus area (small square) in Auto vs. the T4i chooses the closes object point in Auto? At least in Priority I can set to spot focus & partial metering and have the lower flash with the T4i and is fairly easy to change in the Quick touch screen.  As a beginner, I have been checking what the camera chose if I changed one of the other settings and checking the histogram.  Any other tips?


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## Murasaki (Nov 1, 2012)

unpopular said:


> why is auto mode always green anyway?



Because it is for people that are green to photography!


I think?!


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## pixmedic (Nov 1, 2012)

Murasaki said:


> unpopular said:
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> 
> > why is auto mode always green anyway?
> ...



Its because they couldn't fit "Don't Panic" on that small of an area.


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## Ysarex (Nov 2, 2012)

fjrabon said:


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Yeah, I'm just going to have to change those percentages a bit. I'm saying that for 99% of most people's shots (the ones not at concerts with cycling power lights) using a camera in P mode produces solid consistent results where the camera doesn't drastically change things out of nowhere -- we're good. Honestly I don't take photos at concerts. When I do attend there aren't any cycling power lights and I'm there to listen to the music. We can add cycling power lights at concerts to the list of when you should use M; that works for me.

Joe


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## unpopular (Nov 2, 2012)

I have a hard time believing that any camera system is going to be responsive enough to be affected by cycling lamps, there just isn't any reason for them to be.


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> The thing I think people fail to understand is that you really can end up getting the same results regardless of which mode you use, they just attack the problem from different angles.
> 
> P mode starts with what it thinks the best combination of shutter speed and aperture are, and you can then adjust from there.  So, for example when you know you're just going to want relatively straightforward exposures, it may be easier (or in terms that won't offend experienced photographers 'a more efficient workflow') to start with P and adjust as necessary.  So, you see what P gives you, and you decide you want a bit more shallow DoF, then just adjust, P will fix the shutter speed for you, or you can change the ISO.  I've began experimenting with P when doing street photography sometimes.  In street, sometimes the moment is on you before you have a chance to get everything set up.  If you see a shot coming and you can anticipate it, sure, then switch to manual or A or something.  But having your camera ready to go with a relatively high ISO and in P mode guarantees that if something comes on you in a hurry, you get the moment.  Which is much more important than some ephemeral badge of honor of shooting it in manual.
> 
> ...



zOMG... *a shooter* with a fricking BRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

Diz-Actly, x 10!!!


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## Solarflare (Nov 2, 2012)

I dont remember using P mode recently. Thats because I just love shallow depth of field and usually stay at maximum aperture or only little below, so I use A mode all the time, and S mode if I want to play with time.

I only have a DSLR since June though. The two years before I used a bridge camera. In the beginning with my bridge camera, a Canon Powershot G11, I used P mode a lot because otherwise I couldnt change many settings. Basically I used P mode as an Auto mode.

On my new compact camera, I actually use M mode a lot. Thats because I can only do +/-2 EV exposure compensation.


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## Murasaki (Nov 2, 2012)

I am using a bridging camera the Nikon P510 and at the moment using all the modes but Auto, I am using the 'P' Mode to learn how the Shutter Speed and Aperture work together to get a shot. In 'M' mode I have set the Shutter Speed and Aperture and then saved it to 'U' user mode for trying to take high speed shots of my insane rabbit doing the 'Bunny 500' around the house.


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## Canuk (Nov 2, 2012)

swiftparkour94 said:


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If you are concerned w/ speed and being able to get the "candid" for street photography. You could always use the sunny 16 rule and get a much better exposed photo than this.
Street shooters have been doing this for a very long time w/ great results.


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## Roger3006 (Nov 6, 2012)

This has been an interesting thread.  How in the world did those of us old enough to remember when many great cameras did not have a meter and an automatic flash did not exist. I think we made a EWAG and got amazingly good results.  You would not believe some of my dads stuff he shot with a Graflex (sp) before WWII.  Some were shot from a DC3 he was flying.

Things have come a long way since my pop used glass negatives although his photos still look great.

I think the answer to the original question has been answered.  Experiment and find what works best for you and most importantly, have fun.

Yall have a great week.


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## Tiberius47 (Nov 6, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Av/Tv is the new M
> 
> I wish someone could explain to me what makes Program mode so inferior beyond a vague "lack of control".



But that's exactly what it is, a lack of control.

In A, S or M, you have control over how the image looks, in terms of DoF or amount of subject movement.  In P mode you lose that because the camera is determining them.  And the camera doesn't know that you want a slightly longer shutter speed because you're doing panning shots of racecars, or a shallow DoF because you are doing portraits.  it just chooses a SS and A to give what it thinks is a decent exposure.


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## Ysarex (Nov 6, 2012)

Tiberius47 said:


> unpopular said:
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> > Av/Tv is the new M
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That is simply not correct. It was correct decades ago and may still be correct with some less sophisticated bridge/P&S cameras today, but it does not apply to a modern DSLR. A program shift feature is pretty standard today in DSLRs and is also incorporated into many bridge cameras. That gives P mode as much control as A(Av) and S(Tv) modes and, in conjunction with EC, as much control as M. P mode *was* inferior but that was changed years ago. The lack of control you identify is no longer there.

Joe


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## dbvirago (Nov 6, 2012)

Knew this would be a fun thread to read when I saw the title but to answer the OP:
As others have said, I'll put it on P sometimes when I hand the camera to someone else. When on vacation and want a shot of me and my wife, I usually try to spot someone that A) has a DSLR and b) appears to know what they are doing. If not, put it on P and let them shoot. I use P in that situation rather than green so I can still get it in RAW in case it needs more work later than I can get out of a jpg.

Other times are when I am truly wanting snapshots. Recent cases in point, the office halloween party and before and after pictures of remodel work on home.


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## fjrabon (Nov 6, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I have a hard time believing that any camera system is going to be responsive enough to be affected by cycling lamps, there just isn't any reason for them to be.



I can tell you they are from experience.  At least Canon 7Ds are.  If you try to shoot a high school football game with older slower cycling lights with a non AE locked auto mode, it goes CRAZY.  You'll see your exposures jump from 1/200 to 1/800.  Not exaggerating there.  What makes it worse is that the adjustment then falls on the opposite end of the cycle, meaning that your shots tend to be off by as much as 4 stops in extreme cases.


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## unpopular (Nov 6, 2012)

^^ interesting. I wonder why they made it so responsive?


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## unpopular (Nov 6, 2012)

Tiberius47 said:


> unpopular said:
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This really sounds like full auto mode, not program. I'll admit that program is a bit cumbersome, but "lack of control"? Not really.


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## fjrabon (Nov 6, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ^^ interesting. I wonder why they made it so responsive?



Yeah, I don't shoot under those conditions with anything but 7Ds, so I don't know if it's a 'that sensor/processor' thing that's only specific to those cameras and ones with the same sensor/processor combo.  In my experience the 7D is hyper sensitive to everything, the smallest thing can float in front of you in servo mode and it needs to refocus, the tiniest bit of light enters the scene and it changes the exposure. Sometimes it's useful, most of the time it's frustrating.


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## trojancast (Nov 6, 2012)

I shoot in Program Mode all the time.  It is not a simple Auto setting, it is based on complex algorithms programmed into the camera.  When shooting in P, you can see the f-stop and shutter speed the camera is using and you can change them at the twist of the control dial to suit your vision of the photo.  It is similar to using M with auto-iso set, in which you set your f-stop and shutter speed to suit what you want out of the shot, while letting the auto-iso look after the exposure.  The idea that pros use M all the time for creative control is nonsense.  Many of us use Program and tweak from there.  Go shoot the launch of a space rocket in Manual setting while clouds are moving in and changing light.  The pros using P are getting the money shots.


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## fjrabon (Nov 6, 2012)

trojancast said:


> I shoot in Program Mode all the time.  It is not a simple Auto setting, it is based on complex algorithms programmed into the camera.  When shooting in P, you can see the f-stop and shutter speed the camera is using and you can change them at the twist of the control dial to suit your vision of the photo.  It is similar to using M with auto-iso set, in which you set your f-stop and shutter speed to suit what you want out of the shot, while letting the auto-iso look after the exposure.  The idea that pros use M all the time for creative control is nonsense.  Many of us use Program and tweak from there.  Go shoot the launch of a space rocket in Manual setting while clouds are moving in and changing light.  The pros using P are getting the money shots.



I think most pros shoot on A when outside, I get your point, but I think they tend to use A more than P.  Pros also use strobes A LOT.  Most 'pro shots', ie shots that people are getting paid money to produce are in manual, because most of those shots involve light meters, strobes, etc.  These days there isn't a whole ton of photojournalism work that's pro.  There is still a lot of pro studio work though.


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## bunny99123 (Nov 6, 2012)

I use P Mode to adjust ISO in darken areas were my flash is not efficient.  I don't have the best lens, so in low light this Mode allows me to the brighten the shot.  I have joined a Photo Club, and many members are Pro's, and they also use P Mode at times.  Fjrabon, thank you for the great explanation


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## fjrabon (Nov 6, 2012)

bunny99123 said:


> I use P Mode to adjust ISO in darken areas were my flash is not efficient.  I don't have the best lens, so in low light this Mode allows me to the brighten the shot.  I have joined a Photo Club, and many members are Pro's, and they also use P Mode at times.  Fjrabon, thank you for the great explanation



You can turn on autoISO in any mode, not just P mode.


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## Tiberius47 (Nov 6, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Tiberius47 said:
> 
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> > unpopular said:
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You have little to no control over your shutter speed and aperture.

It's not as bad as full auto green box mode where the camera chooses things like whether to fire the flash or what your ISO is, but you do lose control.


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## unpopular (Nov 6, 2012)

^^ maybe if you're unsure how the two are related, but I'm holding my camera in P mode and it doesn't seem and worse than Av or Tv.

I'm not advocating it or anything. I shoot all manual. I just don't see what the issue is specifically. If I turn the knob it runs through each of the equivalent exposures for the metered EV. It works exactly as my a700 does in manual exposure with AEL enabled. Seems a little cumbersome, but I can see how people would like it.


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## Ysarex (Nov 7, 2012)

Tiberius47 said:


> unpopular said:
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In P mode I have full control of my shutter speed and aperture and I lose no control whatsoever. You are completely wrong and apparently don't understand how a modern camera functions.

Joe


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## Tiberius47 (Nov 7, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ^^ maybe if you're unsure how the two are related, but I'm holding my camera in P mode and it doesn't seem and worse than Av or Tv.
> 
> I'm not advocating it or anything. I shoot all manual. I just don't see what the issue is specifically. If I turn the knob it runs through each of the equivalent exposures for the metered EV. It works exactly as my a700 does in manual exposure with AEL enabled. Seems a little cumbersome, but I can see how people would like it.



True, but it's a pain in the ass.

When I take a photo, I want to set my aperture to what I want if I want to control DoF, or I want to set my shutter speed to a particular value if I want to control the amount of movement shown.  I can do this by setting it to A or S.  if I want the exposure to remain constant, I put it in M, set the aperture or shutter speed as required, and then set the other to get the exposure I want.

But with P mode, the camera decides what the best aperture or shutter speed is.  True, you can cycle through different settings that give equivalent exposures, but you can't maintain a constant exposure, and each time the camera thinks the lighting has changed, you have to cycle through equivalent exposures again.

In short, while it does allow you some degree of control, you have to go an awkward way to get it, and using A, S or M modes will give you a much easier time.  I know some people like it because you don't have to worry about your settings, but a camera on A mode with the aperture set to 5.6 or 8 will do the same.


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## Derrel (Nov 7, 2012)

In a modern d-sle, with P mode representing shiftable Program, it's easy to shoot photos. I shoot a lot in manual, and in A mode with my Nikons. Have for decades. sometimes,*M*anual is my preference. Sometimes *A*perture priority auto, what Canon calls *Av* (aperture value) mode. I very,very,very seldom use *S*hutter priority mode, or what Canon calls *Tv* for Time Value. I use *P*rogram mode the least of all...I never owned a camera that offered P mode until 2001, so I grew up without it, and shot for over two full decades without having a P-mode available to me!!!

But still...P mode is not a horrible thing. It picks a reasonable shutter speed and a reasonable f/stop for the light level and the ISO in use, and in many cases these days, is also fully aware of the lens focal length in use...it automatically sets the shutter AND the f/stop for the conditions...with a modern,m fully color-aware, and distance-aware, and focal length-aware Nikon d-slr, with sophisticated Matrix evaluative light metering, *P*rogram mode has worked pretty well in the few times I have used it...

I look through ye olde viewfinder...and scope out the speed and f/stop the camera says is needed...if I want a faster speed or a smaller or larger f/stop, all I need to do is click a few times with my thumb, and shift TWO exposure parameters with only ONE control wheel...if I shoot a shot and it looks too dark or too bright, I press the EC button (that little +/- symbol) and make a click or two or three with the same control wheel and dial in some Exposure Comp.


Program also works when using a camera with its pop-up flash. Programmed Auto exposure is like *the automatic transmission* of the car world...get in, grab the lever and click it in to "D", and just....drive!!!!!!!!! Whenever you need the brakes, you use the brakes!!! When the stereo needs to be louder, you click it up a few notches...I mean, seriously...I drove a stick shift for many years, and all I can say is in rush hour traffic, a stick shift is nothing but a giant pain in the ass.


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## manaheim (Nov 7, 2012)

The absolute best use for P mode is for existing as a subject that comes up on TPF at least 27 times a month, isn't searched for before posting, and creating all kinds of repetitive religious wars.

EDIT: No idea why that was such a big font, though maybe I should have left it that way. lol


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