# Strangers Project



## m.shalaby (Sep 14, 2011)

This has been a project I have been at for a while, and figured I'd share some shots from it.  There's tons more, but these are some of my fav's.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 14, 2011)

They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.

Where does the art come into it?


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Where does the art come into it?



And why was that comment necessary Traveler? Oh right it wasnt.....

Shalaby, I like em, great job isolating the subject and the people look happy / bemused. 

do you just ask strangers on the street? I like your bokeh.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 14, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Where does the art come into it?
> ...



I will assume that questions are real and not just a passive aggressive way of being a jerk and so I'll answer.

I think that any 'technique' becomes just a inutile habit if it doesn't aim towards some greater goal than just the repetition.
Here the OP has some of many very nicely done head-on shots of generally attractive, generally happy seeming people - all approximately the same, formatted landscape, background well oof.
If there is a greater point than this I can't see it.
If there is something more than just the collection of happy faces, it isn't obvious and it just seems a bit empty to me.

As to your comment about 'great job', shouldn't we be past the point of complimenting someone on technique issues alone?


----------



## amandalee (Sep 14, 2011)

I really like them! I think that it is awesome that you do this! Kind of inspires me to want to do it as well! Good day!


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 14, 2011)

I also noted the uncanny similarity of each shot. I expect you (OP) chose each model carefully for their pleasant appearance and cheerful attitude. Must have taken all day to find that many smiling people.

The guy with the headphones is classic.


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 14, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



The OP wasnt asking if his work met your criteria for "artistic" or if his collection was dynamic enough for a solo exhibit. He was showing off work he was proud of, and indavidually the portraits are quite well done. They are all landscape but are all technically fine, sharp, clear subject etc. Why should this offend you?


Oh, and I was being a jerk.  Sending your own rhetoric back at you.


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Sep 14, 2011)

I think you have nailed the subject in each shot with a beautifully clear sharpness yet with a requsite softness in their skin tones and with fantastic overall color. I love each and every one of them. And oh, that bokeh is wonderful. Each should be a post card that belongs to the person you shot. They are all lovely people to look at. 

You have this type of shot (and with young jcrew types) mastered as far as I can see. :thumbup: Very nicely done.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 14, 2011)

If I was to go to a driving range and see someone who was obviously very talented just hit shot after shot with the same club, nailing the same 300 yard sign right in the middle. And he did this day after day, shot after shot, I would despair that someone with such obvious skill wouldn't want to give up just hitting that sign with that one club and turn his skills to a bigger game.



spacefuzz said:


> Oh, and I was being a jerk.



Good job.


----------



## sniperbob13 (Sep 15, 2011)

WOW!! How did you get Phil Collins to stay still for a photograph? (#8)
Great shots, I like them all.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

The point of this project wasn't about creating "art" as you refer to it as. The rest of my studio work, where I get creative with different lighting technique I consider more 'artistic', sure, true enough. 

This project was more of a... how do you say... I can't really put it into words. It was all about capturing complete strangers off the street.... more so, having them actually _allow _me to take their photo. To get them to seem comfortable and relaxed as if they knew me. That was my goal. For a piece of their personality show in each shot.

"where's the art"? I'm sorry but I cannot answer that for you. Art can be anything these days... I wasn't trying to get 'crazy artistic' with these. This was just all about capturing strangers, and the thought evoking period one may go through when they think "how did he get all these people to allow him to take their shot". Thats it. Thats all I was after. But I can see it's not everyones cup of tea, perhaps thats why it was suggested of me to make a coffee table book out of it (pun intended)  - but I doubt I'll ever really go as far as self publishing a book from this.

All landscape was on purpose. I wanted to capture the essence of the "street" and "people" behind them. So its not in doubt where there shot were taken. All just complete strangers, in the streets.

Art? You decide. A challange? Surley! My goal was to get people to look as if they were getting their portait taken by their friend. That was my biggest goal. For everyone to look comfortable, calm and relaxed. For a piece of their true personality to shine through a bit.

Repeatitive? Sure. But I wan't trying to make it about different compositions and angles of shots, etc... I leave that for my model testing and fashion/editoral work. No, rather this was just meant to be interesting in the fact that complete strangers would allow... well, a complete stranger, to take their portrait on the street. Thats all.


----------



## enzodm (Sep 15, 2011)

Technically, I like most of them. However, I  feel misguided too by the project title.  I expected a variety of characters, similar to the variety you find on the road.  Here there are only beautiful people, mostly young, which give their part to the picture pleasure perhaps more than technique. 
Something like "Beautiful strangers project" would be more appropriate (this having seen only these). 

Regarding what can be told and what not, a project is a project, something with a reason and some intellectual guide, which can (and, o a photography forum, should) be critiqued. It's not just a series of portrait exercises. I'm sure the OP understands more this point, since he/she titled "project" and not "some protrait of")  .
By the way, I recently visited Helsinki and in a museum I found a series based on who speaks a language close to extinction: Front page | Kaikki kielen puhujat -30 | Ateneum Art Museum (this to tell that series like this have a reason, typically, and the portrait becomes an instrument for doing something wider).

EDIT: I was writing together with the OP, so now I know more about the underlying reason, which I appreciate (total strangers allowing you to take a picture). I also imagined why to use landscape orientation (but some more DoF would help in recognizing better the environment). However, I stand on my first point: I'm not sure a person with some less esthetical self-esteem is so easy to photograph  .


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 15, 2011)

Absolutely love the shots! Besides all that discussion about art, the name of the project, etc etc... I can definitely say this set, as a project, is superb! :thumbup:

Would you mind explaining -in general- how you took them? I mean, the lens and parameters used... composition... etc.
I'm just taking my first steps in the photography world, so it really helps with my learning to know that kind of stuff.

Thanks and congratulations for the pics! 

Regards,
*LizardKing*


----------



## kseoul (Sep 15, 2011)

First, I want to say I really like the photos and the project. Nice shots and great expressions throughout. Taking shots of strangers on the street can be much harder than it seems.

Second, I want to add that I don't think you should worry too much about some of the comments. What I can tell about the majority of the photographer community is that they are generally just as close minded about things that are different as the mainstream is. Many believe if it's not a shot of a landscape, old/young person, colorful doorway or window, or a colorful repetitive pattern, its probably not artistic or worthwhile. (lets not forget about the flowers) ZZZzzz

Keep it going and nice work.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

^ No worries mate - I'm taking all the negative bla about project and title with a grain of salt.  

For those "misguided" by the title... really?  I mean, really?  What did you want... candids of random people?  Or those not so candid when they realize a lens is being pointed at them, and they look at you just before you click and you get these "who's this weirdo taking my picture?" expressions.   Is that what you hoped for?  lol... sorry to dissapoint.

Not to boast too much, but I'm proud of my project.  Its not easty to capture people the way I did.  (Whoever thinks it is, go ahead and try).  Its not easy to get the lighting you want.  Its not easy making strangers look the way you want, and most importantly comfortable and at ease.  It's not easy one bit.  But hey, haters will hate.

You want art?  Here - here's some "art".  Its a shot I took of the inside of a laundry dryer:






Nice pattern, right!  Art, right!  *sigh*

I'll tell you one thing - I'm more proud of my Strangers Project than this shot I took, lol...


----------



## enzodm (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> For those "misguided" by the title... really?  I mean, really?  What did you want... candids of random people?  Or those not so candid when they realize a lens is being pointed at them, and they look at you just before you click and you get these "who's this weirdo taking my picture?" expressions.   Is that what you hoped for?  lol... sorry to dissapoint.
> 
> Not to boast too much, but I'm proud of my project.  Its not easty to capture people the way I did.  (Whoever thinks it is, go ahead and try).  Its not easy to get the lighting you want.  Its not easy making strangers look the way you want, and most importantly comfortable and at ease.  It's not easy one bit.  But hey, haters will hate.



Mmm... if you just prefer wow-style comments, you have some here, extremely useful from that point of view, so let's not loose time in discussion. 
If not, please re-read what I wrote. You may recognize that, taken alone each image, it is "just" a (very) good portrait. Let's say, "mainstream" style, according to one of  wow-style commenters. Added value is your project behind, which I like: it is a sort of trust-me-I'm-good documented attempt. 
I would not like candid shots because clearly it would not be the same effort (there is another thread on candids of nice girls, really a different idea, if any, behind).  From this point of view, having all the people smiling or at least posing gives an indication on what you are doing.
What "misguides" me is that the strangers I meet around are of a more varied species, in terms of age at least. So, I would expect smiling, posing, random strangers,  not candids (in particular once you explained the project). Part of the portrayed people could easily be models, from their appearance, and this -for me- could weaken such a project. 
Said that, since you have tons of other pictures of which we see only a part, are they all young/beautiful people or you tried to convince also elderly or apparently ugly people? 
And as a personal curiosity, how many denials do you receive, in general?
Since I'm a visitor of exhibitions and museums more than a photographer, please consider my comments as those of a possible recipient  . The final effect I could imagine in visiting an exhibition of this kind  could be that there is room for trust, that strangers are not enemies.  Not sure if this is your aim.


----------



## fortinw (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.
> 
> Where does the art come into it?



If only he had shots of, oh I dunno.... maybe one that looked like an old lady getting mugged, and pehaps a bunch of bored children sitting on a sidewalk, then he'd be shining, eh? :meh:


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

fortinw said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.
> ...



I find it interesting that a comment I made in absolute honesty about what I thought is met with _such_ passive aggressiveness.
  For those who didn't get the quote, fortinw made the comment about some pictures I posted.

I still think that what was done was executed beautifully, and have said so repeatedly, but my honest reaction to it was as I said. 
Others can feel differently and that's everyone's absolute right.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

I posted these photo's on another forum I visit - fredmiranda.com.   Lots of questions and interest there, and I wrote out a lengthy response... figured I'd just copy and paste it to answer any questions others may have:

Good morning all.
Wow  thanks for the overwhelming positive response to my project.  Thanks a lot guys!
I read all the post and Im hoping I hit every question with this post:
All shots taken with the 135mm f2.0 all of them wide open as well.  The 135L is just an outstanding lens.   All shots taken in landscape on purpose as well.  My reasoning behind this was I wanted to capture the environment as much as possible.  I wanted this to look like what it truly is, street photograph.  Portrait style would yield less environment.  
*My approach?*   I explain Im taking on an artistic portraiture project called 100 Strangers (Im currently at 75 I think), and Im trying to capture just completely random strangers on the street.  I was hoping you wouldnt mind taking part of my project and allowing me to take your photograph?.  Thats basically it.  If I just went up to people and said hey, can I take your picture?!  I wouldnt have much success.  A little explanation and honesty did the trick.
What I find most importantly is HOW I  approached them.  Being extra super kind, unassuming, humble, - smiling when you talk to them helps, being positive and upbeat, but humble at the same time all that stuff.  Just be chill, honest and super nice and kind worked well.  (Sometimes I would go out, and for whatever reason I wasnt in a good mood that day, and I found it reflected in my approach. Thats when I knew to hang it up for the day and try again another day).
*Success rate?* - You have to read body language of people.  Are they busy?  Are they in a rush, shopping or something?  Are they busy on the phone texting, etc?
I look for people who looked like they were just out, having a leisurely walk.  From this, I would say I had an 85% Yes rate.  Just about everyone agreed.  Of course, you had some people who just werent interested, but I was actually quite surprised myself at how many responded positively.  
*Person Selection?*  I went for photogenic people.  Lets be honest  if I took photographs of overweight middle aged women (not to insult anyone), this project wouldnt be all that cool.  But not only that -  Im an aspiring fashion photographer so sometimes wardrobe would help make my selection (notice all the hats, scarfs, coats, etc?)  That stuff caught my eye too and helped with selection as well.
*Post Processing?* - I kind of developed my own style so its hard to explain the eintire workflow but its LR3 - PS3.  Brighten to make pop, ad a bit of contrast, but selective sharpening is what I did most with these.  Sharpening of everything (garments, eyes, etc...)  but masked out their skin to keep smooth.  Also did some minor blemish retouching.  Want them to look good, right! 
*Other little things and fun facts?* -  depending on how much I could work with someone I would position them in a spot that worked best for the shot.  (as much as I could, again these are strangers and your working on the street, so I had to make quick decisions).  I would try to look for colors and backgrounds to put them in front of so the bokeh would gel with the photo.  Sometimes I would wait for a crowd of people to pass and take the shot.  Sometimes I would wait for a crowd of people to walk by and capture them in the background to get that street vibe.  So little things like that went into my composition processing as well.
I hope that answers all your questions.  Thanks for the interest in my project!


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

And I'm getting the impression some don't like my stranger selection becuase of how photogenic they are?  Because they could pass off as models?  lol... you want some more random and 'ugly' people?    Wow!!  Okay....

Well, here's some 'characters' I also shot - but I cannot post my entire collection of strangers.
Its a diverse crowd, but yes, I picked mostly photogenic (and fashionable (see what they are wearing) individuals.  Lets face it.  If these were all ugly, overweight middle aged women, this project would have MUCH less appeal.  Sorry my selection of people isn't what you wanted it to be. And I'm sorry the bigger picture of this project went straight over your head.  Instead, nitpicked on the individuals I choose?    From such a short stay at this forum, I can already tell it will be a short stay indeed.
































































There - make you feel better?


----------



## Granddad (Sep 15, 2011)

Hey! I'm a wierdo - I LIKE the whole concept of your project and the way you've carried it out. 
That  was a nice photo of the inside of a clothes dryer too but .... shots like that bore me. It's an individual thing - I like pizza, some people don't. Not everyone can be an Andy Warhol and not everyone has the _desire_ to be Andy Warhol. I can enjoy looking at 20 photos of people but 20 arty shots of objects will leave me cold. I also like shooting people in landscape if there's something in the background other than a piece of white muslin and photogenic people are OK with me - I see enough old and ugly when I look in the mirror. :thumbup:


----------



## enzodm (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> There - make you feel better?



no, make your project more interesting. But since you are an aspiring fashion photographer, I may understand the bias.  

Anyway, thanks for having pasted the long explanation, it makes things more clear.


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 15, 2011)

Im impresssed you get an 85% hit rate, thats impressive!  Not easy to talk to strangers on the street.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> Not easy to talk to strangers on the street.



No... no its not at all.  Its very intimidating.  And I'm not an extravert.  

It really took me a lot to muster up courage to do this project.  I got very anxious each and every time I went out.  After the first few shots it got a little easier, but stopping a complete stranger going about their day, with a big SLR in your hands and asking them to take their shot isn&#8217;t easy, and something I will ever get used to.  Some could say that that's an &#8216;art&#8217; in and of itself. Lol&#8230;sorry, had to add that.  

It seems that entire aspect of this project, the hardest part of it all, and on top of that, to capture the expressions I did&#8211; all of it was completely undermined.

Where&#8217;s the art?  Why not such a diverse crowd of people?  Too &#8220;repetitive&#8221;.

This forum is unique to say the least.


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 15, 2011)

I never said too repetative...I just saw a pattern and said so. THe less attractive people really have more character but that's my opinion. 

I do like the shots and would doubtful have the courage to approach total strangers in this manner (unless required for job). Question, how many refused?


----------



## mc1979 (Sep 15, 2011)

Trever1t said:


> THe less attractive people really have more character but that's my opinion.



This


----------



## enzodm (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > Not easy to talk to strangers on the street.
> ...



just because you read only the critical parts, which are not the only content you can find in my posts. Honestly, I like the idea very much (but I already written this a couple of times), and 85% is really impressive. I would never have the courage of doing something like this -too shy to shoot even candids, although sometimes I do. And of course not with these technical results, not only due to the equipment, which of course helps too.
If I were on the other side (in some times you could have stopped me too, although not often well dressed  ), I do not know if I would say yes or no. I tried to figure the approach, and I suppose it depends on how serious the project would seem - perhaps I would have asked you to show some other picture to understand their quality before letting you shoot me. With these pictures, I would say yes from quality point of view.


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

Had a minute to check in....I was thinking this morning on my hour drive to my destination, what an effort to get so many people to be so comfortable that their expressions appear so effortless. I wondered what it was that you did or did not do to be able to achieve this sort of interpersonal success for these captures. Thank you for your notes, you beat my to my questions. When I get home tonight I am going to re-review this and take away what I can so that I can use this in my efforts.

Thanks too for the notes on your camera, lens and settings. I want the FF, I do, I do, I do. 

My last question is where were this taken? I believe you are from the Tri-State? Were these on a campus? In Manhattan? It appears from their outerwear it was someplace cooler, so timing?


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> ^ No worries mate - I'm taking all the negative bla about project and title with a grain of salt.
> 
> For those "misguided" by the title... really?  I mean, really?  What did you want... candids of random people?  Or those not so candid when they realize a lens is being pointed at them, and they look at you just before you click and you get these "who's this weirdo taking my picture?" expressions.   Is that what you hoped for?  lol... sorry to dissapoint.
> 
> ...




This is just too beautiful. :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  One thumb up just wasn't enough.


I personally liked the series better than the individual shots, before knowing what it was all about. The shots are nice, well done but nothing to write home about individually. As a whole and now knowing the story (one reason I like contemporaries is they can tell their story,) I like it even better. I can just imagine a gallery full (floor to ceiling) of those images and spending hours looking at them.

Then again I'm a fan of Yoko Ono, Steve Reich and other lesser artists, so who am I to say anuthing


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> No... no its not at all.  Its very intimidating.  And I'm not an extravert.
> 
> It really took me a lot to muster up courage to do this project.  I got very anxious each and every time I went out.  After the first few shots it got a little easier, but stopping a complete stranger going about their day, with a big SLR in your hands and asking them to take their shot isn&#8217;t easy, and something I will ever get used to.  Some could say that that's an &#8216;art&#8217; in and of itself. Lol&#8230;sorry, had to add that.
> 
> ...



Neither the fact that you have a studio, that everyone on other forums loved the project or the fact that it was difficult for you personally should have any input on anyone's opinion.

'completely undermined' - I am sort of surprised that you are finding it so difficult to accept some negative response.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Sep 15, 2011)

^^^  I found your response one of passive agressiveness


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Sep 15, 2011)

Traveler, I don't see a whole lot of artistic understanding in your work. Actually I see a technically decent one lacking a creative bone and therefore my understanding of your original response as passive agressive. Just because you don't understand it, or can even try to understand it, does not make it worth less.

You want us to accept your opinion as valid, well start by accepting the opinions of others as valid as yours. You are not god.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> ^^^  I found your response one of passive agressiveness



If you mean me, I'm not feeling passively-aggressive.
I, and others, said exactly what they thought of the project and the OP, and others, seem to think that external factors should influence our opinions.
I am surprised by that response from him.
You are wrong in your diagnosis, Dr.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Traveler, I don't see a whole lot of artistic understanding in your work. Actually I see a technically decent one lacking a creative bone and therefore my understanding of your original response as passive agressive. Just because you don't understand it, or can even try to understand it, does not make it worth less.
> 
> You want us to accept your opinion as valid, well start by accepting the opinions of others as valid as yours. You are not god.



Sorry, I didn't see this before.
I'm not arguing against others' opinion; everyone has a right to them.
You are asserting that I don't understand the project and don't have the ability to try to understand and that might be  true.
But why are you attacking me for having an opinion; is it just because you don't share it?
After my initial comment, in which I said I liked the pictures, I was attacked with reference to my own stuff.
After the OP went on in a couple of posts about it was a difficult project, I replied.

Now you attack my abilities and my artistic sensibility, seemingly to make my opinion less.
I actually don't care what you think of my stuff or of me.
If I 'got' his project, I would say so.
That I don't, isn't an indictment me or him, it just is.


----------



## GratefulDead (Sep 15, 2011)

I like the brokeh, but they all look kinda the same, but with different people. Very nice though they look very professional.


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



I took the set of pictures a little deeper than just happy faces. I saw a group of people that were all very different, but were all beautiful. They all had their own style....wearing scarfs....headphones.....sunglasses....hats...tattoos...piercings.  So I loved the set , it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling......


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> m.shalaby said:
> 
> 
> > No... no its not at all.  Its very intimidating.  And I'm not an extravert.
> ...



I tried being diplomatic, but as soon as the "ugly vs. good looking&#8221; or called  &#8220;models" came into play, THAT is when I stopped accepting negative responses. That my friend, is complete garbage.

It honestly make me wonder if the posters who stated such are not handsome andunattractive, and therefore have a vendetta against photogenic people?  I sense a little bitterness there.

Take a step back and listen to how some of you sound:

&#8220;Nice project, but I wish you took more shots of ugly people&#8221;. ???  Crazy! Just absolute garbage!  

The responses I&#8217;ve seen in this thread (not ignoring the positive, I&#8217;m not)&#8230;but the negative are so overwhelmingly ridiculous, I&#8217;m addressing those.


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 15, 2011)

First of all I think this whole debate is childish. I am ugly, fat and old...and I don't give a damn!

If you can't take a little critiscm without getting your feathers ruffled then you're in the wrong place. *Everyone is entitled to an opinion*, good or bad. Get over it. Ignore it even but don't get all pissy because someone doesn't see what you thought was clear.


----------



## bobnr32 (Sep 15, 2011)

Traveller: your attitude is bang out of order! Who are you to comment whether the project is art or not? Is Rembrandt an artist? His paintings were largely in the same style.
I too have been a victim of mindless bullying on another site which I have now left. I give my total support to the OP and his right to produce high quality work in the way he choses without interference from others.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

GratefulDead said:


> I like the brokeh, but they all look kinda the same, but with different people. Very nice though they look very professional.



Straight over your head too - shame.

Take a look at the response I got on FM.com   -  Strangers Project - FM Forums

Here, I get "they are too good looking".  I mean, wow.  Just wow.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

bobnr32 said:


> Traveller: your attitude is bang out of order! Who are you to comment whether the project is art or not? Is Rembrandt an artist? His paintings were largely in the same style.
> I too have been a victim of mindless bullying on another site which I have now left. I give my total support to the OP and his right to produce high quality work in the way he choses without interference from others.



Dear Bob,

You should really read what I wrote.
I said that the pictures terrific but I didn't get the point.
From then on, it was attacking the messenger because the message was unacceptable.
I, in return, won't be bullied out of my opinion.

My suggestion is just to put me on ignore and you will be spared any unwanted interaction.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> Exactly. Traveller - you came off straight like a ( fill in the blank ).  How DARE you say "where's the art?"



I am writing it down now.
"M. Shalaby is of a higher order than me and there should be treated as such."

That's an example of passive-aggressive.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

bobnr32 said:


> Traveller: your attitude is bang out of order! Who are you to comment whether the project is art or not? Is Rembrandt an artist? His paintings were largely in the same style.
> I too have been a victim of mindless bullying on another site which I have now left. I give my total support to the OP and his right to produce high quality work in the way he choses without interference from others.



Exactly. Traveller - you came off straight like a ( fill in the blank ).  How DARE you say "where's the art?"
People wack canvas&#8217;s with paint and call it art.  And as a photographer to photographer, your comment is outright offensive.


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 15, 2011)

people whack canvas's with paint and some people say it's not art too. lighten up. Is it so important to make people understand? Art is in the eye of the beholder and noone can tell another what is or isn't appealing to that other.


Can't we all act like adults here and let it go. Jeesh, this place is a soap opera!


----------



## bobnr32 (Sep 15, 2011)

Traveler: you are not being bullied. I am merely pointing out that the only reason to criticise the artistic merit was to make yourself feel good- classic bullying. I often see photos I do not like, and rather than make the person feel bad, move on to other threads. But no, you had to exercise your right to be negative, bully that you are.


----------



## mc1979 (Sep 15, 2011)

Ok, I'm going to leave all the artsy-fartsy talk for others. 

To the OP, I think your photography is great. I have been to your site and really liked all your work. I love the images you have posted in this thread. I understand your thought process behind the project and I think you did an excellent job of execution. 

However, I didn't like your comments that seemed to suggest that you feel like if you had taken shots of unattractive people that you wouldn't have pulled this off. I understand this to a degree.. my way of thinking is if they are gorgeous people, it's kind of hard to take a "bad" photograph. Now I know that you could still take a technically bad photograph of a beautiful person, but your average joe who hasn't studied all the aspects of what makes a good image a good image, is just going to see a beautiful person, and say "oh great" And with this project, they are all great looking people, but I think that's what others might have meant when they were commenting in what you think was a negative manner. It's like looking through a fashion magazine..you see so many beautiful people, that unless the photographer really steps out of the box and gets creative....it just becomes another pretty face.

With the second series you posted, I felt a connection more with these people. These people seem even more relaxed with you. They all have more "character" in my opinion. You found the beauty in these "average-joes" from the wrinkles to the missing teeth. Their pictures seem to tell more of a story to me.  These have more of a "stranger, captured street-style" feel to me.

Anyhow, that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about those..I think your assertion, that if it had been all ugly people, we would not have been as interested...is completely wrong.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

^^
I take this as your unattractive and have a vendetta against people who are.  The expressions from the old men, to the young and attractive are what you make out of it.  The project was to capture strangers (and I did of all sorts as you can see).

Picking on the attractive, putting their photo's down seems like you have serious issues with yourself.


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> But why are you attacking me for having an opinion; is it just because you don't share it?



Traveler, you were responded to because of the way you voiced your opinion, in a manner which was designed to demean and belittle the work of the OP. If you dont like it, thats your opinion. But you could have instead framed your comment in a different way, such as: Very well done portraits, do you have any others that show more variation of character?  I prefer gritty style photojournalism so would be interested in seeing any work you have along those lines. 

offering C&C does not have to be personal.


----------



## kundalini (Sep 15, 2011)

I much prefer the second lot of portraits you presented.  I think they are very photogenic people, certainly more character driven as a whole than the first.  I also think the first group is nice as well.

However, I think you missed the mark slightly of capturing the surrounding environment by shooting wide.  The extreme OOF background hides much of the storytelling IMO.  I have been wanting that lens for that very same reason though.

That's just my opinion.


----------



## mc1979 (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> ^^
> I take this as your unattractive and have a vendetta against people who are.



I take this as an immature attack. I could come right back at ya, but I won't...because I was being honest with you..I complimented your work..and yet you still have something negative to say..
I think you were right...your activity on this forum will be short lived..if not..it should be.. Good Luck on your endeavours..you are talented and I wish you well


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 15, 2011)

mishele said:


> I took the set of pictures a little deeper than just happy faces. I saw a group of people that were all very different, but were all beautiful. They all had their own style....wearing scarfs....headphones.....sunglasses....hats...tattoos...piercings. So I loved the set , it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling......



Well said Mishele. Nice to look at street photography and get good feelings.  Ive seen enough poverty in my life dont always want to look at more pictures of it.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

"Where's the art?"  

 Traveler - if we were face to face at a photo exhibit and I had my project posted and you walkedover to my cue, those words wouldn't dare come out of your mouth.  

You just came accross as a smug miserable little person.  "where's the art?"  a blatant attack, an attempt to put my work down.  Thanks!


----------



## mc1979 (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> ^^
> 
> Picking on the attractive, putting their photo's down seems like you have serious issues with yourself.



If you are speaking to me..please tell me how I was picking on the attractive?? I said that I liked the set..my only objection was YOUR comments...they seemed rude and childish.. by you saying " if they had all been pics of UGLY people, they would have been boring/uninteresting"

I have no issues with myself whatsoever..and the more you keep posting ...the more it is evident who has issues.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

mc1979 said:


> m.shalaby said:
> 
> 
> > ^^
> ...



Think its rude and childish all you want, but its a completely true statement.  Shallow the world we live in, yes.  

People like looking at others who are easy on the eyes.  Plain and simple.  Its truth, and I didn't make the rule - the vein world we live in did.  Just the way it goes.

And yes, I have lots of issues.  Don't we all?


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 15, 2011)

so much anger...must be the internet!


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

If I were trying to build a business for myself, I'd want to be darn sure that I have technical skills and consistency to produce them. I think this project is a building block to that end.

At this point I won't be too concerned with the negative or the positive. I think that the self satisfaction is what you want to focus on after all of this.... Feedback on forums is not always pleasant as you know. If the FM site has regulars that can generally convey their thoughts and suggestions in a manner that is consistent with simple respect that is great. It's not uncommon to find sites where regulars go against the grain and the sites are toxic. I participate on non-photgraphy forums too and find the same differences in attitude and tone. 

Someone recently characterized it as internet snark.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> so much anger...must be the internet!



This statement couldnt be more true.
If we all had these discussions face to face, the entire conversation would be different.
I bet one wouldn't even offer a negative comment whatsoever.

I'm not angry whatsoever.  A bit defensive, which I have a right to be.  With a smug comment like "where's the art?", as much as I tried to, I just couldn't let it slide.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

GeorgieGirl said:


> If I were trying to build a business for myself, I'd want to be darn sure that I have technical skills and consistency to produce them. I think this project is a building block to that end.
> 
> At this point I won't be too concerned with the negative or the positive. I think that the self satisfaction is what you want to focus on after all of this.... Feedback on forums is not always pleasant as you know. If the FM site has regulars that can generally convey their thoughts and suggestions in a manner that is consistent with simple respect that is great. It's not uncommon to find sites where regulars go against the grain and the sites are toxic. I participate on non-photgraphy forums too and find the same differences in attitude and tone.
> 
> Someone recently characterized it as *internet snark*.



or internet troll, yes.


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

BTW......I don't think that these people are overly beautiful people. They are everyday people. What makes them beautiful to me is their smile and individuality. People are too hung up on looks!


----------



## mc1979 (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> mc1979 said:
> 
> 
> > m.shalaby said:
> ...



I never said that it wasn't easy on the eyes, I never said anything was wrong with your set. I never said I had a problem looking at beautiful people. But you on the otherhand had to tell me in so many words that I must be unattractive and have lots of self issues..

I only said something because you kept commenting on how people were picking on attractive people, yet you were very blunt about UGLY people..so it's ok to pick on the ugly?

I think you totally misinterpreted my post and I hate that..but oh well. It's the internet.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Sep 15, 2011)

mishele said:


> BTW......I don't think that these people are overly beautiful people. They are everyday people. What makes them beautiful to me is their smile and individuality. People are too hung up on looks!



No kidding!  I can't believe this thread got derailed into a beautiful people vs. the not so beautiful ones. Not one of those gave me a hard on.


That said, here's your entire original post, Traveler:
"They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.

Where does the art come into it? 						"

From a guy who thinks newbies should read between 10 and 15,000 words worth of stickies before voicing their opinions, I think yours is seriously lacking.

Now this is MY original post:
"This is just too beautiful. :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  One thumb up just wasn't enough.


I personally liked the series better than the individual shots, before  knowing what it was all about. The shots are nice, well done but nothing  to write home about individually. As a whole and now knowing the story  (one reason I like contemporaries is they can tell their story,) I like  it even better. I can just imagine a gallery full (floor to ceiling) of  those images and spending hours looking at them.

Then again I'm a fan of Yoko Ono, Steve Reich and other lesser artists, so who am I to say anuthing "

It may not go much further than yours as you see it but I did mention a couple reasons why I like the work. I also mention a couple of artists that I feel are related to this work. Overall a much more thorough C&C than yours although without so many more words.

Don't criticize what you don't do yourself!

When you turn into god, blast us all to hell if you will but until then, watch what you say.

And, btw, any idea why I mentioned the two artists I did mention?


----------



## Stanza (Sep 15, 2011)

Great! Well, even if I have big personality I am shy enoough to ask somebody unknown if I can take a picture of him/her... Well done, interesting faces!


----------



## spacefuzz (Sep 15, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > BTW......I don't think that these people are overly beautiful people. They are everyday people. What makes them beautiful to me is their smile and individuality. People are too hung up on looks!
> ...



Didnt Yoko take similar pictures?   I saw a photography of the Beatles exhibit once at the Rock n Roll hall of fame and seem to remember that style.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> "Where's the art?"
> 
> Traveler - if we were face to face at a photo exhibit and I had my project posted and you walkedover to my cue, those words wouldn't dare come out of your mouth.
> 
> You just came accross as a smug miserable little person.  "where's the art?"  a blatant attack, an attempt to put my work down.  Thanks!



If you asked, as you did by posting here, I would say exactly what I thought as I did here.

IMO, you need to grow up a bit.
Not everyone will get or like your 'art' and if you respond this way, you will whittle down your critics to sycophants - and even those get bored after a while.

If you like, just post your address and next time I'm in New York, I'll come to your studio and you can insult me in person.


----------



## bobnr32 (Sep 15, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> And, btw, any idea why I mentioned the two artists I did mention?


No!


----------



## bobnr32 (Sep 15, 2011)

Traveler: you just don't understand the difference between saying, for example, "I would like to see more variety in your work" and "Where's the art?"
There is constructive criticism and you.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 15, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> Shalaby, I like em, great job isolating the subject and the people look happy / bemused.



Taking a break from a bad day to view these images left me with a smile. Working downtown, and people watching on breaks outside, you can really get a sense that nobody is happy. It was nice to see people took time to stop, and smile.


----------



## MTVision (Sep 15, 2011)

How come you don't have a little story that accompanies the photo on your Flickr set? Most of the 100 strangers projects I've come across have a little blurb underneath about the stranger as well as how you approached, what you were both doing, etc. 

I started this project too. It's slow going for me since I live in a small area (where I know everybody) and I'm extremely shy. Has it helped with your ability to talk to strangers?


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> m.shalaby said:
> 
> 
> > "Where's the art?"
> ...



If you didn't get the hint by now, nobody agree's with the way you approached me, my photography, and this thread in general.

*And in a real life **circumstance: *if we were at an art exhibit and I was sitting there as viewers passed by my booth and looked at my work, and then you strolled up and you said to me_ in person_ &#8220;nice,but after 4 or 5 I get bored.  Where is the art?&#8221;  - Now *really*, ask yourself, would you REALLY say that to me?  ...a complete stranger to you (which I am on this forum).  No sir, you wouldn&#8217;t dare say that to me (or anyone) in person like that under those circumstances.  No no no.... you just simply wouldn't.

Now if you want to play strong arm and "stick to your words" and if you did truly have the guts to say that to a stranger exhibitng their artwork - well then you&#8217;re one nasty, cruel d-bag of a human being!

So whats it going to be?  Are you going to admit you wouldn't say it in person?  Or are you really just one nasty miserable cruel d-bag?  Your on the spot - answer!


----------



## subscuck (Sep 15, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Taking a break from a bad day to view these images left me with a smile.



Wait, you smiled? I thought I felt the earth briefly stop rotating. LOL

On a serious note, I agree with c.cloudwalker. Taken on a one by one basis, they don't do much for me. However, in the context of the project (as they should be viewed), I think it's a lovely set.:thumbup:


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

MTVision said:


> How come you don't have a little story that accompanies the photo on your Flickr set? Most of the 100 strangers projects I've come across have a little blurb underneath about the stranger as well as how you approached, what you were both doing, etc.
> 
> I started this project too. It's slow going for me since I live in a small area (where I know everybody) and I'm extremely shy. Has it helped with your ability to talk to strangers?



I don't want to have a story.  I want the images, and individuals to be whoever you want them to be.


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

Now we are C&Cing the way people present their work on flickr....lol Wonderful


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > m.shalaby said:
> ...


----------



## bentcountershaft (Sep 15, 2011)

I like the images, both individually and as a set.  Aside from being beautifully shot I like the repetition as it seems to drive the point better than more variety would have.  Seeing happiness in random strangers is refreshing, like Bitter said.

However, I can't keep from agreeing with Traveler that you don't seem to take criticism all that well.  I took a look at your FM thread you had linked to and that you seem to prefer over this one;  It seemed to be full of empty compliments.  A lot of attaboy type posts there that didn't really say anything about _why_ they like it.  If that's all you want then by all means you should continue as you have been, but if it were me, I'd rather have ten threads like this one in response to my work than one hundred of those.


----------



## MTVision (Sep 15, 2011)

mishele said:
			
		

> Now we are C&Cing the way people present their work on flickr....lol Wonderful



I actually wasn't critiquing OR commenting on the way he presents his work on flickr - I was asking a question. I never said I disliked/liked the way he did it.


----------



## MTVision (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:
			
		

> I don't want to have a story.  I want the images, and individuals to be whoever you want them to be.



That's cool. I actually like that better. I mean I like reading some of the stories that go with the 100strangers projects but then again some of them detract from the image. 

Good luck with the rest of your project!


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

MTVision said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My apologies. I miss read what you wrote.:hug::


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 15, 2011)

First of all, I believe you should be happy to have all these photographers (amateurs and pros) discussing your work and project. It certainly doesn't matter if Traveler was too hard with his original comment (I don't believe he was, by the way)... Please don't take this the wrong way, but it would be better for you, as an artist, if you didn't get all that upset when receiving a negative review. It doesn't matter how good your work is, there's going to be people who doesn't like it. They might be right or wrong, but it's a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to one. It's up to you to take those negative comments and maybe learn something, or not. 

Again, I really like your work, but I really really really don't like the way you reacted to some of the comments on this thread. If you post the pictures in a photography forum without any introduction or anything, you have to be opened to receive all kind of responses.



Trever1t said:


> If you can't take a little critiscm without getting your feathers ruffled then you're in the wrong place. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, good or bad. Get over it. Ignore it even but don't get all pissy because someone doesn't see what you thought was clear.



This is exactly what I mean.



m.shalaby said:


> From such a short stay at this forum, I can already tell it will be a short stay indeed.



Personally, I prefer to post my pictures in a place where I get real criticism and not just the typical "oh I love it. Number 3 is my favorite. keep it up"... That is not helping you in anything but to grow your ego, which is something we all need and welcome, but I prefer those who really say what they think. So, maybe if you don't get this, you should probably make it a short stay. It would be a shame though, because your work is great and really inspired me. :thumbup:




mishele said:


> BTW......I don't think that these people are overly beautiful people. They are everyday people. What makes them beautiful to me is their smile and individuality. People are too hung up on looks!



YES YES YES... If you really pay attention is just regular people. Most of them young, that's right... but you probably wouldn't point that out as a problem if they were all elderly people, or babies, or whatever... This is great set of street portraits from young cool people... People showing personality and welcoming smiles. The selection of the different models is, probably, what I like the most about this set. :thumbup:


Anyway... Please don't take this comment the wrong way... Again, really like your work, but it would probably be best for you to accept all kinds of criticism. 

Have a nice day!

Regards,
*LizardKing*


----------



## rub (Sep 15, 2011)

I think the images are great. They are well shot, easy to view, and leave you with a smile. I much prefer the color to the black and white.

I don't care if they are good looking or not good looking. They are interesting. And that's what matters.


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

LizardKing said:


> First of all, I believe you should be happy to have all these photographers (amateurs and pros) discussing your work and project. It certainly doesn't matter if Traveler was too hard with his original comment (I don't believe he was, by the way)... Please don't take this the wrong way, but it would be better for you, as an artist, if you didn't get all that upset when receiving a negative review. It doesn't matter how good your work is, there's going to be people who doesn't like it. They might be right or wrong, but it's a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to one. It's up to you to take those negative comments and maybe learn something, or not.
> 
> Again, I really like your work, but I really really really don't like the way you reacted to some of the comments on this thread. If you post the pictures in a photography forum without any introduction or anything, you have to be opened to receive all kind of responses.
> 
> ...



This is an example of C&C "nice work, but I think your exposure is off... perhaps brighten it up a bit" or "decent, but I would recheck your color balance... seems like its a bit warm, try cooling it down"

THAT is C&C.

Not "this isn't artwork" - thats a blatant nasty attempt at belittling my work and a straight insult.

His comment wasn't C&C.  His comment was an insult.  .

So don't lecture me about taking C&C well. I LOVE C&C... I don't like insults.  Don't tell me to take insults well, because nobody on earth likes to be insulted.

You think his comment was C&C?  Tell me where he offered any tips to improve upon the images or work?  You cant.  Its not there.  Why?   Because it wasn't C&C.  It was a straight insult.


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

^^^^^^That's the problem......he would prolly laugh at the fact that someone said that and move on. You need to have enough confidence in your own work to hear what everyone has to say, and laugh at the stuff you don't agree w/. =)


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

mishele said:


> ^^^^^^That's the problem......he would prolly laugh at the fact that someone said that and move on. You need to have enough confidence in your own work to hear what everyone has to say, and laugh at the stuff you don't agree w/. =)



perhaps your right.  but i dont' like being insulted.
thre was no c&c - it was an insult.  i can't promise I'm always going to take persona attacks and insults with a bed of roses.


----------



## kundalini (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.
> 
> *Where does the art come into it*?





m.shalaby said:


> perhaps your right. but i dont' like being insulted.
> *thre was no c&c - it was an insult*. i can't promise I'm always going to take persona attacks and insults with a bed of roses.


It was neither nor was it a personal attack.  

It was a question asked after a compliment was given to your work.


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 15, 2011)

You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter the content of the opinion. IT'S JUST AN OPINION. If you don't like it, just say it or ignore it. But don't take it personal, because it isn't personal at all... Let's say for one sec that it was an insult or someone trying to piss you off... So what? What's wrong with that? Are you going to start a war with everyone who insults you or your work?

And, last time I checked C&C meant Critique and Comment... It's not limited to technicalities and specific parameters... You're asking for C&C on a set of pictures, so making a critique or a comment on that set is equally valid.

I don't know... just my point of view. Have a nice day!

Regards,
*LizardKing*


----------



## GeorgieGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

Here is a question...why do these have to be art? The comment was such that they failed to make a grade because they were un-artful despite that they can stand as good work. 

It's kind of getting to be overused, the word art.


----------



## portermeister (Sep 15, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> ^^
> I take this as your unattractive and have a vendetta against people who are.  The expressions from the old men, to the young and attractive are what you make out of it.  The project was to capture strangers (and I did of all sorts as you can see).
> 
> Picking on the attractive, putting their photo's down seems like you have serious issues with yourself.



Wow. You don't like what people have to say about your choice of models and you're calling people ugly? That is childish.


----------



## Augphoto (Sep 15, 2011)

Why can't we all just get a gun &hellip; I mean get along. 

Sorry.


----------



## mishele (Sep 15, 2011)

*LizardKing........amazing quote BTW.....*


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 15, 2011)

mishele said:


> *LizardKing........amazing quote BTW.....*



Thank you. I like yours, too. Specially the first one, since most of the times is really hard to define what 'art' means.

Have a nice day!

Regards,
*LizardKing*


----------



## dakkon76 (Sep 15, 2011)

Excellent shots, and I appreciate the people skills it took to approach all of them and ask them to get their picture. I've only tried shooting strangers a couple of times and it's tough going up and asking someone for their picture, then telling them what you want. Even tougher to actually catch them doing the right thing. I thin #3 was my fav, but there were several that seemed to be much better than the others. As for Traveler, can't you just imagine him scheming at his computer coming up with these verbose and articulate responses? I'm sure it amuses him to hear (read) himself talk


----------



## m.shalaby (Sep 15, 2011)

i'm done guys. i've thrown in the towel on this. i'm not wasting anymore time and energy into what has turned into a garbage thread debating art vs. photogenic people vs. "ugly" vs. too sensitive vs. whats C&C vs. whats an insult

not worth my time, i have more important work to do.

its all yours from here on out. peace


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 15, 2011)

wow, I wish I got almost 8 pages of interest to one of my threads....what I got to do?


----------



## rgregory1965 (Sep 15, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> They are nicely done but after the first 4 or 5 they seem sort of, you know, similar.
> 
> Where does the art come into it?




Another example of some people that just think there **** dont stink.....I so need to find another forum where every post isnt a you suck im better than you type thread.....this is got to be well over 50 percent of the threads here....it gets really old I must say.

if your so damn good and have so much more experience, try helping others instead of being an asshole all the time.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 15, 2011)

Trever1t said:


> wow, I wish I got almost 8 pages of interest to one of my threads....what I got to do?



You got to be controversial, argumentitive, or a complete idiot (Karissa).

I anxiously await your next thread, Trevor, to see which tack you take.


----------



## PatrickJamesYu (Sep 16, 2011)

So I read the first page and saw this completely blew up into a debate, and I want to give my input before reading the next 6 pages, if I even decide to.

Photography is an Art and Craft.
The art is the meaning, feeling, and 'soul'.
It's where the photo comes from.

The craft is the technical work. Who's who, who looks like what, DOF, exposure, color, ect.

I'm not hating on anybody at all
I'm just expressing my personal interpretation of this 'art' subject.

I was actually very impressed with the pictures.
I think they look great as a whole, grouped together as a Stranger Project.
I see warmth in the smiles
I like this.


----------



## subscuck (Sep 16, 2011)

PatrickJamesYu said:


> I like this.



If the work is good, and that's how it makes you feel, then it's a success.


----------



## mishele (Sep 16, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Trever1t said:
> 
> 
> > wow, I wish I got almost 8 pages of interest to one of my threads....what I got to do?
> ...



I'm going to put my vote in for controversial!!


----------



## LizardKing (Sep 16, 2011)

m.shalaby said:


> not worth my time, i have more important work to do.



Grow up!! :thumbup:

...you sound just like my nephew when he gets mad at me while playing a game or something....... seriously, for your own sake, you really have some issues you need to work on...


----------

