# POLICE and Photography



## Stormchase (Aug 27, 2010)

I have been shooting for about a year now. 3 Times now I have had police officers inquire about what im doing standing in a bush on the side of the road holding my rig on a tripod. well ... Taking pictures of Bugs of coarse! I have never had a real problem but its kinda a pain anytime that I seem to come across a police car I have to explain myself. Some have enjoyed my days shots tho :hug:: 
I know a little on how police officers think. I knew one that had a saying. "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck... Its probly a duck" So... If its odd that im in a bush, odd that im in a bush holding a 4 foot long black thing (tripod), odd that im in a bush, holding my long black thing at night, somethings most likely not right. No blame for me standing out lol.
\
\ Anyways just wondering if anyone has had some intresting run ins with the Law while you have been out shooting. Or for that fact run-ins with anyone intresting. Let me hear some stories!!


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## Mustlovedragons (Aug 27, 2010)

I had an officer approach me while I was photographing a homeless man in Atlanta. Oddly enough, he came up to me to ask if he could photograph ME, for some odd reason. Could me being dressed like a Klingon warrior at the time have anything to do with it? Nope, other than that, no one ever looks twice at me and my camera...I must be boring (sigh).


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## NateS (Aug 27, 2010)

Nope...never had police bother me with my photography.


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## Josh66 (Aug 27, 2010)

Mustlovedragons said:


> Could me being dressed like a Klingon warrior at the time have anything to do with it?


I think at this point in the thread, we need to see some pictures.


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## DennyCrane (Aug 27, 2010)

I've never had any encounters with the police when taking pictures. But, I'll be honest and say it's something always in the back of my mind. I make sure when I'm in public taking shots, I am keeping myself in the open, make it very obvious I'm a photographer with nothing to hide. In fact, even though I'm under no legal obligation to, I would immediately offer to show the officer the pictures I'd taken. Hell, ya never know, it might lead to a sale. 

So, always carry a business cards.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 27, 2010)

never had problems with REAL cops.  Only with COPS WANNABE!!   I was parked at the edge of COSTCO parking lot (very very far from the building), a white SUV with yellow strobe light drove by and told me to leave.  They dont want anyone in their lot when it is not business hour.  WTH.  

Another time was on a Campus.  A campus security told me to leave.  I was taking some HDR of old buildings on campus.


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## misstwinklytoes (Aug 27, 2010)

lol My husband was a cop and now works for the feds, yet I ALWAYS get nervous around cops and it makes me appear to look like I'm doing something wrong.  :lmao:

I've been pulled over 38 times in the 11 years I've had my license and I've gotten 3 tickets.  I attract cops like flies to decay or something...


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## Ron Evers (Aug 27, 2010)

I went to the arena to practice action shots of the kids skating & was asked to leave.


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## Mauravdl (Aug 27, 2010)

My brother in law is ex-swat, now gang-unit sergeant so I'm fairly at ease with the cops and I've only been asked once about taking photos. When he saw what I was doing, he moved his car so no one could accidentally target-fixate on me and run me over (side of the highway) and gave me a few tips on better safety near roads.


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## mishele (Aug 27, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> I've been pulled over 38 times in the 11 years I've had my license and I've gotten 3 tickets.  I attract cops like flies to decay or something...



It sounds like you need to slow down!!!! Dang!!


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## Josh66 (Aug 27, 2010)

mishele said:


> misstwinklytoes said:
> 
> 
> > I've been pulled over 38 times in the 11 years I've had my license and I've gotten 3 tickets.  I attract cops like flies to decay or something...
> ...


Yeah.  I've had maybe 5 tickets since I was driving.  4 of those were in the first year, lol.


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## LCARSx32 (Aug 27, 2010)

I've had several similar experiences with cops.  I think it's the night pictures thing.  When I first really got into photography, I was fixated with the stars.  So one winter night that was uber clear, my sister and I went down to a field at a conservation area near our parent's house.  About 5 minutes into a bulb exposure (I wanted star trails), a cop pulled in with his spotlight on.  So much for that shot! lol.

He was nice enough.  Just wanted to know what we were doing.  I told him "taking pictures" and he replied "Of what?".  I can only imagine what was going through his mind.  But when I told him "the stars" and he saw the camera pointed up on the tripod, he seemed to be satisfied.

When my battery ran out, we went back for my spare (I always forget _something_).  He stopped again when we got back down there because he knew we had left.  He also asked if we had seen a gray truck in the area.

Something similar happened the night of the meteor shower.  My brother and I went to some bluffs that have been cut out for the highway.  They overlook a valley and gave us a clear 360 degree view of the sky.  We had two different cops stop to ask what we were up to.  Luckily, neither used their spotlights, lol.  

I actually like that they're stopping.  It gives you that sense that the cops around here know what's going on and if something looks suspicious, they check it out.

*@misstwinklytoes:* I had the same problem until I traded in my Firebird.  Oddly enough, the cops don't seem to want to pull over a PT Cruiser. :er:  I get the feeling that when they see me speeding, they're just impressed I was able to get it over 60, lol.  I do miss those T-tops, tho.


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## white (Aug 27, 2010)

Mustlovedragons said:


> I had an officer approach me while I was photographing a homeless man in Atlanta. Oddly enough, he came up to me to ask if he could photograph ME, for some odd reason.


He probably thought you were being exploitative by photographing the bum asked to take your picture as maybe a humorous way of giving you a dose of your own medicine.

<shrug> Can't blame him, really. I know I've had my fill of photos of crusty bums and African tribes that people ordinarily give two-shits about.


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## misstwinklytoes (Aug 27, 2010)

Only a handful of those were for speeding.  My first car was a 1967 lime green VW bug with peace signs, mushrooms, and flower decals around the wheel wells (it was SO sweet as a sweet 16 gift!)... and cops just liked the attention I guess... also I was fairly good looking back in the day. :er: (Ten years and two kids ago.)  

I actually got pulled over because my windshield was too flat... *eye roll*


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## MohaimenK (Aug 27, 2010)

Enough said......


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## crimbfighter (Aug 27, 2010)

Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread 

I watch photographers of all sorts roaming around my beat, and usually can tell in seconds if they need a second look. Often times the ones that get a second look are the ones pointing their cameras at sensitive areas, ie in windows or at buildings that contain sensitive materials like our nuclear reactor or biological agents. Even then a contact usually only consists of 30 seconds of "how ya doin, what are you up to?" So long as my spidie sense doesn't tingle, I go on my way. Bottom line, people have the right to take pictures. Though we wouldn't be doing our jobs a community caretakers if we didn't at least check given our current social climate. 

I did contact a guy once who was taking pictures of girls sun bathing on a grassy lawn. It's a well known spot where on nice days, 100+ girls will be basking in the rays. He voluntarily showed me his camera, and there were over 300 close up pictures of girls naughty bits on there. Needless to say a check of his record indicated he was a sex offender... Go figure... Unfortunately, in cases like this, those people are protected by the same rights you and I are, so there really isn't anything we can even do to someone like that. Although I bluffed and told him I would release a statement to the press with his name in it and what he was up to. It worked...he deleted the photos and left.


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## pbelarge (Aug 27, 2010)

In the last year, I have had numerous encounters with police and my camera.
I think part of it is where I am taking the photos from.

My last encounter was at Wall St in NYC. I had a large lens with a hood on my 7D. I was climbing up the side of the building directly across from 1 Wall St. The Terrorist Squad picked me up on camera and were going to come out and question me.
As luck would have it, my nephew was on duty and recognized me. He is the one who came out and explained that maybe I should refrain from climbing up the side of the building.:er:
I told him I wanted some unique photos that the 1000s of tourists were not getting.

He is now in the process of getting me a pass to get on the roof of some of the buildings for unique shots...:mrgreen:


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## sam_justice (Aug 27, 2010)

Working in law enforcement myself and being a budding photographer I find it funny approaching other photographers when in uniform. Usually people will seem quite uneasy as I approach but I always break the ice with "what model of *insert make of camera* is that?" at which point most people click that I also am into photography.


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## misskrys (Aug 27, 2010)

One time I was taking night photos on campus, and a campus officer drove up and asked what I was doing. He didn't really understand what in the world I might be taking pictures of, but he left anyway.


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## SecondShot (Aug 27, 2010)

So long as police don't try to tell me i can't take pictures of stuff from a public space/street/area, then I have no problem with one strolling up and saying "hi". If they do, then that's a problem.


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## Josh66 (Aug 27, 2010)

sam_justice said:


> Working in law enforcement myself and being a budding photographer I find it funny approaching other photographers when in uniform. Usually people will seem quite uneasy as I approach but I always break the ice with "what model of *insert make of camera* is that?" at which point most people click that I also am into photography.


Since you are one of the few people on this board that can see both sides of the 'argument', I'd be very interested in hearing your perspective on the whole cops/photographers thing.


You said that you've had to approach photographers before...  For what reason?  (I understand that even if you may not personally feel that any given person is a threat, you have to investigate it.)

What could the average photographer do to avoid police interaction, or make it go more smoothly.

What are the things that make you stop and decide to question an individual?


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## Stormchase (Aug 27, 2010)

Great to hear about all your stories! Funny and intresting stuff. Thanks for all of you in uniform that have chimed in! 
I do want to add to this...
Once I was takeing wide angle shots of an indoor shopping area. I had a lady approach me after bieng very nice asking who i work for. When I say "Nobody" she flipped out. "How dare you take pictures of me!", "Your not allowed to do this!" When I was explaining she was not even in focus or my subject at all she keeped flipping out. I even showed her the picture I took and it didnt help. I ended it with a stern comment of "Sorry to offend you. Ill delete it if you would like and Im not doing anything illegal... Have a good night." 
Here is the shot. It was that lady at the end ... that franklygot in the way, lol. After it was all over I was kindly asked for 5 dollers in gas money from a crackhead haha. I went home.









LCARSx32 said:


> Oddly enough, the cops don't seem to want to pull over a PT Cruiser. :er: I get the feeling that when they see me speeding, they're just impressed I was able to get it over 60, lol. I do miss those T-tops, tho.


:lmao::lmao:

I do not feel upset really that they are looking into what i am doing. Sometimes (If im in a new place) makes me question if I might be in a place I shouldnt but I just keep my eye out... and keep shooting.


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## ceomom703 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ron Evers said:


> I went to the arena to practice action shots of the kids skating & was asked to leave.



Were any of them your own kids? Adults without children at playgrounds, schools, and such tend to look very suspicious.  Speaking as a mother, of course.


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## DennyCrane (Aug 27, 2010)

crimbfighter said:


> Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread
> 
> I watch photographers of all sorts roaming around my beat, and usually can tell in seconds if they need a second look. Often times the ones that get a second look are the ones pointing their cameras at sensitive areas, ie in windows or at buildings that contain sensitive materials like our nuclear reactor or biological agents. Even then a contact usually only consists of 30 seconds of "how ya doin, what are you up to?" So long as my spidie sense doesn't tingle, I go on my way. Bottom line, people have the right to take pictures. Though we wouldn't be doing our jobs a community caretakers if we didn't at least check given our current social climate.
> 
> I did contact a guy once who was taking pictures of girls sun bathing on a grassy lawn. It's a well known spot where on nice days, 100+ girls will be basking in the rays. He voluntarily showed me his camera, and there were over 300 close up pictures of girls naughty bits on there. Needless to say a check of his record indicated he was a sex offender... Go figure... Unfortunately, in cases like this, those people are protected by the same rights you and I are, so there really isn't anything we can even do to someone like that. Although I bluffed and told him I would release a statement to the press with his name in it and what he was up to. It worked...he deleted the photos and left.


I find this whole scenario slightly chilling. Forget the knee-jerk reaction we all have about sex offenders for a moment. Here is a police officer who's not happy with current laws about photographers, so he lies to a citizen and threatens him. THIS is why we get harassed on the streets. It's not ignorance of the laws protecting photographers, it's police officers knowing the law and ignoring it. 

My personal opinion? Lock up sex offenders forever. No parole. But here we have a cop who doesn't like the law, so uses his uniform and badge to threaten and intimidate someone doing something legal. I wonder what other thing's he's done on duty to a citizen because he didn't like them, but knew they weren't breaking any laws?

Like I said, chilling.


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## sam_justice (Aug 27, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> sam_justice said:
> 
> 
> > Working in law enforcement myself and being a budding photographer I find it funny approaching other photographers when in uniform. Usually people will seem quite uneasy as I approach but I always break the ice with "what model of *insert make of camera* is that?" at which point most people click that I also am into photography.
> ...



That's a toughie, since everyone works on their own merits and instincts really. 
I've approached photographers before for many reasons, mainly to have a chat with them about photography! 

Obviously if we get a call of what a member of public would call a "suspicious" person with a camera, we have a duty of care to check it out. In most scenarios though it'll be a shutterbug trying to get a good composition which I completely understand and in most cases will help the person with it. 

There have been occasions where parents have called in saying someone's taking photos of kids in a play park, once again 99.9% of the time it's entirely innocent and it's just someone trying to get some good action snaps. We do have to check it out though.

If you get approached by an officer who asks why you're taking photos just be polite and open. Remember the officer is ignorant to the situation when they arrive, all they've been told is information from the public which can be extremely misconstrued at times. Put yourself in our shoes, our radio goes buzzing saying "member of public reporting a suspicious middle aged male taking photos of passerbys", if that's all the information we have then we're going to want to ask questions just to ascertain what's going on. It's not us being rude, we're just trying to understand (and if the officer doesn't understand photography you can see why the suspicion arises). They may ask for your details, if so, hand them over. All they're going to do is run your name and date of birth through the system to make sure you're not known to the Police (imagine if it turned out that the photographer at the childs play park was a paedophile and we just ignored it). Once again it's nothing personal, the officer doesn't know you, it's just standard procedure.

In terms of what makes me personally stop an individual (but remember here I'm into photography and every officer is different) if someone is blatantly open with a camera, then it's pretty obvious they have nothing to hide. The ones that make me question their actions are the people that hide and shy away. For instance, I work in a busy tourist town with a popular beach, a huge number of people take photos here and it's such a normal sight to see that no one would question it. A few months ago I was walking along said beach, cameras were firing away with families taking pictures kids, photographers of the beach, pier etc. Then I noticed a man lying down with a baseball cap covering half his face, sunglasses and heavy clothing for the weather (an extremely hot and sunny day, he was wearing a fleece and jeans). I found it odd because the crowd were facing toward the sea (and sun) but this man was lying down in front of the crowd looking straight at them. He had a magazine in front of him lying open, as I got closer I could see underneath this magazine there was a camera lens. Obviously suspicion was aroused and my alarm bells started ringing. I went over the man, introduced myself and said I noticed the camera. At this point the man became extremely nervous so I asked to take a look at the photos, surprise surprise they were all of small children. He was swiftly arrested for breaching his bail conditions.


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## Ron Evers (Aug 27, 2010)

You have a good point Denny.  

We know there are many bad cops but we can hope the good ones use discretion.  

ceomom, one of our kids has kids but no they were not there.  I did understand but still feel it is a shame this is how our society has progressed.  I blame the soft on crime Liberals in our country.


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## DennyCrane (Aug 27, 2010)

sam justice, Psychic Celebrity Friends say you're from the UK, am I correct? I'm pretty sure in America, a police officer cannot demand to see what pictures you've taken. I believe a judges order is required. But, as I said, if a police officer approached me, I'd tell him what I was shooting and _offer_ to show him.


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## sam_justice (Aug 27, 2010)

I am from the UK indeed! You're exactly right though, no one can force you to show them what you're taking. General common courtesy and manners goes a long way, if I ask to see some photos, I am asking, not demanding. If that person wants to say no then I will respect that decision.

In the case of the the story above, if the man had refused to show me the photos then I would've seized the camera BUT that would've been due to the fact he was a registered paedophile who was already breaching his bail conditions just by being in the beach area.


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## Taylor510ce (Aug 27, 2010)

Stormchase said:


> Once I was takeing wide angle shots of an indoor shopping area. I had a lady approach me after bieng very nice asking who i work for. When I say "Nobody" she flipped out. "How dare you take pictures of me!", "Your not allowed to do this!" When I was explaining she was not even in focus or my subject at all she keeped flipping out. I even showed her the picture I took and it didnt help. I ended it with a stern comment of "Sorry to offend you. Ill delete it if you would like and Im not doing anything illegal... Have a good night." .


 
Technically, you WERE possibly doing something wrong. If it was an indoor shopping area, it is owned by someone and therefore is private property. Yes, it is a public location, but it is not public property. There is a difference. They can ask you to leave, or refuse you permission to photograph there. She could have complained to the owners. I am sure ( and perhaps the cops posting here can validate this ) that they could charge you with things like disturbing the peace, or possibly even harrassment depending on local laws. Then there is the issue that if a cop shows up and requests you to leave ( and assuming you get all uppity about your photographer rights ) its my guess you wouldn't be too happy with that outcome, because in reality, you would not have that right there. Now if you were standing off property with a really long lens, then they could shove it.

I personally have never had any cops bother me. I actually have been thinking of getting into some editorial shooting and getting a scanner and all that. So I am sure if I did, I would be running into a lot of harrasment by the police. I do tend to make myself obvious as other have stated. I recently went to a local public park in my neighborhood. They have multiple soccer fields and have games on Saturdays. Anyway, it happened to be teen girls playing ( not knowing this before going, I just kinda take whatever happens to be there ). I distinctly remember thinking "I wonder if some parents are wondering if I am some perv or something?" Typically when you have a backpack full of gear, an big gripped SLR, and a huge effin L lens, I think most people assume you aren't some wierdo. I am sure some get pissed regardless, but oh well. If someone came up to me and had a legitimate problem, I would probably ask which kid was theirs and tell them that I would do my best to avoid shots with them in it, but if they were not courteous in response, I would tell them to take a hike.


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## danielrwelch (Aug 27, 2010)

I live in KC and I was out one night shooting on the Plaza (which is a semi-posh shopping/dining area) and a cop asked me what I was doing and I said I was shooting some long shutter exposures of people and traffic and he told me he would like to see what I was shooting.

Since I had nothing to hide, I really didn't care in showing him a quick runthrough.  He apologized and said he was making sure I was not shooting through the shop window for "future prospects." I was confused, turned around and realized I was standing in front of Tiffany & Co.


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## DerekSalem (Aug 27, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> crimbfighter said:
> 
> 
> > Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread
> ...



I'm all for adhering to the law...but morality also comes into play at times. I'm not talking about religious morality, but built-in "everybody knows better" morality.

If you see a guy take hundreds of pictures of children at a park and you ask who he works for and he says they're purely "for his own use"...legally you have nothing to charge him with. Does that mean he shouldn't be punished in some way?


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## sam_justice (Aug 27, 2010)

Taylor510ce said:


> Stormchase said:
> 
> 
> > Once I was takeing wide angle shots of an indoor shopping area. I had a lady approach me after bieng very nice asking who i work for. When I say "Nobody" she flipped out. "How dare you take pictures of me!", "Your not allowed to do this!" When I was explaining she was not even in focus or my subject at all she keeped flipping out. I even showed her the picture I took and it didnt help. I ended it with a stern comment of "Sorry to offend you. Ill delete it if you would like and Im not doing anything illegal... Have a good night." .
> ...



People forget Police have a huge power called discretion. In a situation like the above I would've probably said to the lady (after talking to the photographer and realising the situation was entirely innocent) "you didn't seem to have a problem with it when you thought he was part of the media, you aren't in focus in the photo therefore you aren't distinguishable and whilst this building may be private property it is open to the general public and this behaviour is perfectly normal, acceptable and a common occurrence in a public place"


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## vtf (Aug 27, 2010)

I was invited to my son's apartment complex and they mentioned a public bike path along the perimeter of these apartments. They all said yeah, go out and shoot, theres some wonderful wild life that lives along the route. So I did just that and when my battery ran low and I was leaving and heading back to my son's apartment 2 panicking office boys approached me and asked' What are you doing!!!!!' I replied."taking pictures". They asked "of what".
I said "squirrels along the bike path"
They said " We've had reports of someone taking pictures of girls through their windows".
I said "Damn, that why's I need more practice, theres people driving by at 60 miles per hour on the hiway can get a good shot of naked girls and I cant find one."
I proceeded to tell them that its a public bike path and maybe they should tell those girls to shut their windows and stop inticing trouble. 
They didnt asked to see the shots but I would've shown them with an officer there so a report would've been created.


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## Taylor510ce (Aug 27, 2010)

DerekSalem said:


> Does that mean he shouldn't be punished in some way?


 
Yes it does. You have to respect peoples rights, or else you can't expect yours to be respected. Does that mean you shouldn't check the guy out if you are a cop? Probably not. I mean, if he is a sex offender, he shouldn't be within that distance to a childrens park anyway, and its your job to keep people safe from that kind of stuff. Its called reasonable doubt. So there are reasons to check someone out. However, if someone is looking to practice shooting families and kids, and does not have any of his own, this may be his only way. However, he should be wise enough to ask parents or let them know what he is doing/why. With kids, its also nice to be more courteous. Yeah, there are laws, but when you mess with someones kids, laws get forgotten easily. I don't want to end up on the business end of a gun of some recently laid off frustrated parent who feels threatened by me and have reached the final straw.


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## Ron Evers (Aug 27, 2010)

Derek 





> If you see a guy take hundreds of pictures of children at a park and you  ask who he works for and he says they're purely "for his own  use"...legally you have nothing to charge him with. Does that mean he  shouldn't be punished in some way?



Whoow!  Punished for taking pics of kids playing in a park?  You must be kidding.  What the hell is wrong with that?  Must one of them be your own in order to do so?  How about folks on the street, should that be punishable as well.  

Ridiculous!


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## Taylor510ce (Aug 27, 2010)

sam_justice said:


> Taylor510ce said:
> 
> 
> > Stormchase said:
> ...


 

Yeah, most of the ones I know also have a thing called "low tolerance for BS" :lmao:


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## Brutus (Aug 27, 2010)

Taylor510ce said:


> sam_justice said:
> 
> 
> > Taylor510ce said:
> ...



To be fair, if there are no posted warnings against taking photographs, he wasn't doing anything wrong until someone working there tells him to stop.


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## Taylor510ce (Aug 27, 2010)

Brutus said:


> Taylor510ce said:
> 
> 
> > sam_justice said:
> ...


 
That is correct. The worst they can do is ask you to leave. My scenario, was mainly predecated on the fact that they could make him stop shooting and leave, whether politely, or through use of the police. I was mainly referring to the statement in which they told the shopper "they were doing nothing wrong"  which in fact they were ( no business in their right mind would side with him taking pictures of and bothering their customers ). Now had he gotten permission from the owner or manager of this operation, then that statement would hold a lot of weight If the cops showed up and a big enough stink was raised, they could probably take your camera or at the very least, erase your photos.This would be no different than me walking into your yard and taking pictures of your house and everything you own. I am sure there are no signs posted telling me not to? Its still private property.


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## kundalini (Aug 27, 2010)

Cops are just people doing a job mostly. A job I'm not suited for. I'd rather keep them on the lens side of life though.



:addpics:​


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## Stormchase (Aug 27, 2010)

As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes. Obviously the sex ofender will be doing a crime again and might be in the procsess of it as the above poster walked up on them. Cheers to doing what you did.

For the private property in a public place. I see the points of haveing your rights there. Even if it is takeing pictures of children its legal and doing nothing wrong on a legal standpoint. What happens from there is a new senareo. 99.999% of the time there is nothing to worry about.
There is common sence to play here. There does not have to be a sign for every crime in the world posted in every public place. I mean look at Pee Wee Herman ... Should there now be signs for that? lol
Great points on everyone!


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## adversus (Aug 27, 2010)

Stormchase said:


> As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes.



Slippery slope, my friend, slippery slope.

Like it or not, unless it violates his probation by taking pictures of private parts in plain view in public, I don't see that he's doing anything illegal (but I'm no lawyer!).

I mean, what if you took someone's picture in public who's religion decried such a practice (being "captured" by film, let's just say)?  Do THEY have a right to take your camera or put you in jail? No.

We live in the United States, which means your morals AREN'T my morals, and if it isn't illegal, there isn't anything you can (or should) do about it.


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## crimbfighter (Aug 28, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> crimbfighter said:
> 
> 
> > Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread
> ...



Don't you dare make assumptions about who I am or what "other things" I might do on duty. You have no idea how many battles I have fought to protect peoples rights. Including almost loosing my job because I flat out told my department administrators I wouldn't write someone a citation because I felt it wasn't constitutional! Do you honestly think I go about at random and "make people pay" because I don't like what they are doing? Boy, you've got some serious perspective issues. And what about the rights of the girls to be free of harassing behavior? Based on your comment, I have to assume you are only interested in your own agenda, and have no consideration for how the law applies to all. And for your information, the Constitution, and the United States Supreme Court says I can do exactly what I did. If you don't like it, writer your congressman...



DennyCrane said:


> sam justice, Psychic Celebrity Friends say you're from the UK, am I correct? I'm pretty sure in America, a police officer cannot demand to see what pictures you've taken. I believe a judges order is required. But, as I said, if a police officer approached me, I'd tell him what I was shooting and _offer_ to show him.



You are correct on this. In order to look at the photos without consent, we need a warrant or exigent circumstances, but exigent circumstances wouldn't really apply here. So yes, we need a warrant signed by a judge. And we would only get a warrant if we can articulate the photos contained evidence of a crime.



adversus said:


> Stormchase said:
> 
> 
> > As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes.
> ...



You're absolutely right on this, from a legal aspect, it's all or none. Everyone has the right, or nobody does. And you're also right, he wasn't doing anything illegal. But does that mean I should have said, "oh well, sorry girls, there's nothing I can do, enjoy having your crotches photographed by a sex offender." We have many tools at our disposal, namely our ability to bull****, to obtain a common goal without violating anyones rights. There is something called common morality. Sets of guidelines which the majority consider to be immoral. And in this case, in these circumstances, he was in violation of that common morality. So even though he wasn't in violation of any laws, I will do anything within my legal ability and discretion to convince him to move along. Also, I didn't happen across this guy by random, I was _called_ there by many of the girls who were so freaked out by this guy they were afraid for their safety. But, according to DennyCrane, I should have ignored those pleas for help from the girls on the other end of that lens.


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## adversus (Aug 28, 2010)

You totally had a duty to investigate the situation, no doubt about that.  And I wouldn't argue that.

I hate to "be that guy", but seriously, if you are sunbathing in public, you shouldn't be surprised if someone wants to look.  Just like you shouldn't be surprised if someone was offended and uncomfortable with seeing scantly clad people sunbathing.

Both are legal.  Back to the slippery slope.  You have the right to sunbathe with a bikini, others have a write to photograph your butt crack.  The joys of a free society.


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## FemFugler (Aug 28, 2010)

I have never been approached by an officer for photographing in public. 

However just to comment on what Taylor said about the whole not wanting to come across as a perv. I totally can relate. lol Even though i am an 18 yr old female.... I often go to the park to take some of my shots and most of the time there are kids. I *try* and avoid them from being in my photos for multiple reasons, the major one being that i don't want to come across as being a perv or something. In fact often times i'll leave or move to a new location if there's a lot of kids there because i don't want to make the kids or parents feel the slightest bit uncomfortable about my presence with a big camera. Sometimes i go through the bike trail and stuff too and since its an area quite close to the park a lot of times kids and go alone or with their family and often times i put my camera down because i don't want to get the wrong idea across. I don't try and hide my camera in any way i just remove it from my face so it's clear that i have stopped taking pictures. 

I have had a parent ask me what i was taking pictures of while i was in the bike trail and i was very open with him, still though like i said above i removed the camera from my face to reassure him that i wasn't taking pictures of his family(i don't even know if thats what he was even concerned about or if he was just genuinely curious of the fact that i was taking pictures of an empty bike trail! lol)

To be honest if a cop approached me i wouldn't mind at all. I'd of course offer to let him/her see the photos as well and i'd be more than willing to provide him/her with any information they may be curious of. 

I think the whole 'you dont HAVE to show your camera to the cop' thing is true but if you dont it kind of looks suspicious.... like you dont HAVE to open/empy your bag but if you deny it then it kind of looks bad on your part. Like if your doing everything right then why would you have to hid sort of thing? None the less regardless of the whole 'looking bad' i would still be more than happy and most likely offer to show my pictures to them.

Oh and in response to Crimbfighter's situation i honestly don't blame him. I mean i do agree with the fact that if you are sunbathing in public  then you shouldn't really complain too much if someone is taking pictures of you. I mean i admit if it were me sunbathing i would probably be a little creeped out  if it were obvious that he was aiming at me but at the end of the day it is in public so i would probably just get up and leave. Back to Crimbfighter's situation, i think the key thing here is the fact that the person had zoomed into areas that makes it cross the line. I would say if the person just had pictures of a busy beach or even maybe some candid/snapshot type shots or the water or whatever then i would say ya the person shouldn't have been arrested, BUT since he zoomed into strange places of strangers then i personally think that he did the right thing and if i were in his shoes i would probably do the same.


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## Flash Harry (Aug 28, 2010)

Being in possession of a camera doesn't give you permission to photograph anything you like imo, if I have someone in the frame I usually wait till they are out of it, if I want to photograph a stranger I'll usually ask them if they mind, I NEVER shoot kids or include them in a photograph without permission, I normally keep well away from kids parks when toting a camera and would myself be highly suspicious of any person doing similar and though I'm quite partial to a lady's personal bits I think the person who was stopped by the officer would have been charged over here, with at least, "breach of the peace", and whether you have similar morals or not you should respect anothers right to privacy and ask permission before shooting that person in a compromising pose, keeping your depraved views where they belong, in your own home where your judgement will not affect a complete stranger. H


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## The Shoe (Aug 28, 2010)

When it comes to practising action shots with a moving subject, I avoid kid's parks and go with my friend and his Dog to... yup, a local Dog park.  Never had another Dog owner mind, the Dogs move fast and I've gotten some interesting shots.

As for police, I was parked by a river under one of our larger bridges and took some night shots (nothing spectacular) and when I went back to my car a cop passed by and turned around.  Just asked what I was doing and suggested I have my four way flashers on, and that I should wear a reflective vest when out near a road at night.

Good suggestions.


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## mrmacedonian (Aug 28, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> I've been pulled over 38 times in the 11 years I've had my license...


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## adversus (Aug 28, 2010)

> Being in possession of a camera doesn't give you permission to photograph anything you like imo



If you are standing on public ground, photographing something in plain view of the public, then you have every right to take a photo of it (some exceptions may apply for National Security, but those are very very very few and far between).

Don't confuse "Permissions" with "Rights".

I've taken photographs of babies, toddlers, teenagers, middle aged people, senior citizens, bundled in jackets, nearly naked, poses or candid shots.  Not once have I been asked to stop or delete the image.  If I was, I probably would just to avoid the argument.


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## BKMOOD (Aug 28, 2010)

I've never yet had problem with police. The only thing a police officer ever said to me was: "Wow, nice lens. I bet that thing cost more than I make in a week." I told him the lens actually costs $20. It was an old manual focus Vivitar 200mm prime (quite large) I had attached to my digital camera with an M42 adaptor. We both had a chuckle.

One day a security guard asked what I was doing. I told him I was playing with my historgram (which I was, testing it). By the time I got done explaining to him what a histogram was (and I went into great technical detail), his face glazed over and he just walked away.


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## Ron Evers (Aug 28, 2010)

BKMOOD said:


> One day a security guard asked what I was doing. I told him I was playing with my historgram (which I was, testing it). By the time I got done explaining to him what a histogram was (and I went into great technical detail), his face glazed over and he just walked away.



Now that's funny.  I can see it.


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## Josh66 (Aug 28, 2010)

I have never had a single photography related police contact...  I have had more than a few non-photography related 'incidents' though.  Judging by how those went, I would probably just do whatever they wanted me to just to get away from them as fast as possible.  Let's just say that my prior dealings with law enforcement have given me a less than favorable attitude towards cops...

Maybe it's just where I live, but they aren't exactly the kind of people I would ever want to talk to.  ...And to think, not long ago, I considered joining the force.

I don't think I could ever fully trust a cop...  I know that in the back of his mind, he's looking for ways that he can ruin my day, lol.

I know not all cops are like that, it just seems like most of them are...  It's because of 'them' that I have this "us vs. them" attitude...


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## bentcountershaft (Aug 28, 2010)

I only have run ins with the cops when I'm shooting at night.  They don't understand how you can take a picture when it's dark outside.


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## misstwinklytoes (Aug 28, 2010)

mrmacedonian said:


> misstwinklytoes said:
> 
> 
> > I've been pulled over 38 times in the 11 years I've had my license...




Yeah I didn't even mention that the first 26 were in the first 5 years.


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## djacobox372 (Aug 28, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> never had problems with REAL cops.  Only with COPS WANNABE!!   I was parked at the edge of COSTCO parking lot (very very far from the building), a white SUV with yellow strobe light drove by and told me to leave.  They dont want anyone in their lot when it is not business hour.  WTH.
> 
> Another time was on a Campus.  A campus security told me to leave.  I was taking some HDR of old buildings on campus.



This makes sense, as real cops patrol public spaces where it's legal to photograph whereas "wannabe" cops patrol private spaces where you have no legal right to photograph.


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## djacobox372 (Aug 28, 2010)

adversus said:


> > Being in possession of a camera doesn't give you permission to photograph anything you like imo
> 
> 
> If you are standing on public ground, photographing something in plain view of the public, then you have every right to take a photo of it (some exceptions may apply for National Security, but those are very very very few and far between).
> ...



I'll take issue with your "national security" statement, you cannot protect freedom by giving it up.


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## ChristinaW (Aug 28, 2010)

I just want to know if MissTwinkle met her hubby at one of those MANY stops by the cops... lmao


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## DennyCrane (Aug 28, 2010)

crimbfighter said:


> crimbfighter said:
> 
> 
> > *I did contact a guy once who was taking pictures of girls sun bathing on a grassy lawn. *It's a well known spot where on nice days, 100+ girls will be basking in the rays. He voluntarily showed me his camera, and there were over 300 close up pictures of girls naughty bits on there. Needless to say a check of his record indicated he was a sex offender... Go figure... *Unfortunately, in cases like this, those people are protected by the same rights you and I are, so there really isn't anything we can even do to someone like that. Although I bluffed and told him I would release a statement to the press with his name in it and what he was up to. It worked...he deleted the photos and left.*
> ...


I find it interesting NOW you say you were called to deal with the guy when in your first post you made no mention of this. I also find it interesting that you think I'm assuming anything about you. I'm simply wondering what other lies you tell citizens and what other bluffs you pull. 

YOU, in fact, are making assumptions about me. YOU say that "according to DennyCrane, I should have ignored those pleas for help from the girls on the other end of that lens." This plea that you never mentioned in your first post here. 

You talk about how the law applies to all, but you clearly show disdain for it by admitting you have problems following orders from your superiors. A large portion of my customer base are law enforcement officers and they're ALL great people who have never talked about tactics like this. In fact more than a few are photographers, too. I think this kind of activity is not the standard procedure for police officers. And I am glad. Good day, sir. You are now on my ignore list.


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## sam_justice (Aug 28, 2010)

I completely understand why people don't trust Police if they've had bad dealings, we're not all like it trust me and unfortunately it's the few that ruin it for the many.


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## DennyCrane (Aug 28, 2010)

The best way to approach any dealings with the police is to first remember they're just people like you and they're doing a difficult job. Don't make it harder.


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## timlair (Aug 28, 2010)

I've been chased by some family dogs, told to leave by some angry farmers, and both rent-a-cops and Police have enquired of my intentions. Only the Rent-a-cops told me to leave. I didnt, they threatened, they left, i got my shot and left. I like to think i know my rights. All of this happened this summer too.


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## Ron Evers (Aug 28, 2010)

Why I do not trust the police & this happens far too often.  This is a local one - grown man living with his mother - we got him.  

quote

*Guy Paul Morin*

 			 			 			 				 				From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 				 				 				 				 																 				 					Jump to: navigation, 					search 
*Guy Paul Morin* is a Canadian who was wrongly convicted of the October 1984 rape and murder of his eight-year-old next-door neighbour, Christine Jessop of Queensville, Ontario. DNA testing led to a subsequent overturning of this verdict.
 Morin was acquitted of murder at his first trial in 1986.[1] The Crown exercised its right to appeal the verdict on the grounds that the trial judge made a fundamental error prejudicing the Crown's right to a fair trial.[2] In 1987 the Court of Appeal ordered a new trial.[3] The retrial was delayed until 1992 by Morin's own appeals based on the Crown's non-disclosure of exculpatory evidence and by other issues, including the double jeopardy rule.[3]
 Morin was convicted at his second trial and was sentenced to life imprisonment.[4]  Unlike others convicted of murdering children after sexually abusing  them, he was kept in the general population throughout his time in  prison.[5] Improvements in DNA testing led to a test in 1995 which excluded Morin as the murderer.[6] Morin's appeal of his conviction was allowed (i.e., the conviction was reversed), and a directed verdict of acquittal entered in the appeal.[3]
 An inquiry culminating in the Kaufman Report  into Morin's case also uncovered evidence of police and prosecutorial  misconduct, and of misrepresentation of forensic evidence by the Ontario Centre of Forensic Sciences.[3][7]


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## crimbfighter (Aug 28, 2010)

First, to the OP and to the others following this thread, I apologize for allowing myself to end up in a personal exchange with others. I'm the first to get upset with posters when they get into a battle of their opinions rather than utilizing this forum for it's intended purpose. I had to walk away from the computer for a bit to realize how personally I was taking this thread. That unfortunately caused me to say things I wouldn't normally say about others. So, moving on.

Now, to Ron, I'm sorry you don't trust police. The case you cited is a good example of how doing police work without an open mind can effectively ruin a persons life. There are no excuses for what happened in that case. There are places in this country where, even today, people are wrongly accused of crimes, although it is extremely rare. I'm sure my word doesn't really count for much, but I can attest to the integrity in law enforcement today. If there's any message I can convey, it's that the cases of intentional wrong doing by police is infinitesimal, and when it's found, it's dealt with swiftly and harshly. Law enforcement is a much different profession than it was even 20 years ago. There are much higher standards than there were, and the level of professionalism is light years ahead of where it was. A good example of this, at least in Wisconsin, is many departments here require a bachelors degree to even be considered for hiring. Something that was unheard of even a decade ago. Many of my coworkers, in fact, have their Masters, and a couple are even working on their doctorate. 

Also, I always caution people not to take new articles at face value. I'm not saying the one you've cited isn't true, but there is always more going on than is printed in the media. I have personally worked cases where the articles the next day contained things that simply weren't true, they didn't happen. The papers made assumptions about the investigations and they didn't have all the facts. I've always encouraged people who are really concerned about a particular case, to simply conduct an open records request. Everything we do is public record from our salaries to every document we've ever written. Though when I make that suggestion, nobody has yet to follow through with it. Which tells me they don't really want to know the facts, they'd rather just believe what they read in the headlines.


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## misstwinklytoes (Aug 28, 2010)

ChristinaW said:


> I just want to know if MissTwinkle met her hubby at one of those MANY stops by the cops... lmao




LOL No!  I met him as his waitress in a restaurant where all the cops ate, though!  He wasn't a cop then yet, though.


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## SecondShot (Aug 28, 2010)

Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him _myself_, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police. 

I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzpUzPdoBg&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAtcL_djVQ&feature=related[/ame]


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## Stormchase (Aug 29, 2010)

Lol well I didn't expect the thread to go this direction but it has brought up many good points on all sides. Too many to quote in this reply. I think its funny seeing some fellow TPFers come out of their shells. no apologies needed.  I have been enjoying the posts from everyone. 
I do want to add something ... if your car is about to be searched (don't ask) and you are asked if you " have any weapons, knives, guns, bazookas?" NEVER say you have a bazooka behind your seat lol. Just trust me on this lol.


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## DerekSalem (Aug 29, 2010)

SecondShot said:


> Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him _myself_, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.
> 
> I saw two youtube videos about this photographer that attracted attention of police as he shot near federal buildings. He handled both perfectly in my opinion and provided them with no information that they didn't need.
> 
> ...




See the thing is, he's pushing his limits on purpose. That's *just* as bad as breaking the law, in my opinion. It's like a kid being told he can't step into the house, so he crawls in on all fours.

In essence, he's trying to push the law as much as he can. Heck, in the second video he asks the cop to tell him what a sign says...when he can *easily* tell for himself that it says "this is a federal building".

In reality people like this are only out to cause trouble, just so they can tell the people meant to enforce our laws that they're not doing anything wrong. The problem is the more you push up against the laws, the better the chances that those laws will be changed to condemn you. It's childish and idiotic.


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## Brutus (Aug 29, 2010)

DerekSalem said:


> SecondShot said:
> 
> 
> > Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him _myself_, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.
> ...



The thing is, he isn't even pushing the law whatsoever. He is well within the limits of the law, and is not even close to breaking any. And the reason they do it is to bring attention to the issue, because of how often police enforce laws that don't exist and are never caught because of people not knowing their rights or because the person has no way to show their rights were abused.


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## SecondShot (Aug 29, 2010)

DerekSalem said:


> SecondShot said:
> 
> 
> > Photography is not a Crime is a site I visit about twice a month. What I see there is a bit sensational, but alarming nonetheless. Essentially its as if anything and everything a police officer says is LAW, when in fact, it's not. Police Officers lie, and can and WILL use ANYTHING you say against you. Unfortunately, crimbfighter noted this in his own example. I don't disparage him _myself_, because I can see why he took that angle. The point is that we all need to educate ourselves about the law and what is and isn't required when interacting with police.
> ...



How is this like a kid being told he can't step into the house? The problem is just that. He CAN step into the "House", he can and so can everyone else.  

If his knowledge of what police can and cannot ask for, or at a certain point demand is considered _*pushing the law*_, then it's a sad state of affairs. We should all just be ignorant of what our rights are and roll over whenever a cop comes around. 

Here, this is another youtube video - this time from a Former defense attorney, and now a law professor advising his students to "Never speak to the Police". A second video shows the second half of the lecture from his guest speaker, a detective at the local PD re-iterating the same message. Funny, isn't it? 


note: these are long, but informative.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE[/ame]


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## SecondShot (Aug 29, 2010)

Brutus said:


> DerekSalem said:
> 
> 
> > SecondShot said:
> ...



This is very true. The following examples are on the extreme side, but good examples nonetheless. 

Officer Meserhle of the Oakland PD would likely have never been charged, or convicted of killing Oscar Grant in the now infamous Oakland BART shooting. Oscar Grant was lying prone, on his stomach, with another officer's knee on his neck. Yet, he pulled out his gun and shot him in the back. Accident or Murder, he killed him, and the presence of photo and video evidence helped convict him. 

Police in College Park, MD were caught on camera beating a student who apparently got too close to them as he was celebrating his school's win over Duke. 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPwyodTkYA&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

Without cameras and videos as evidence, the word of police officers will almost always carry more weight than the common citizen. What other methods of keeping everyone accountable and transparent are as effective?


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## bruce282 (Aug 29, 2010)

Wow. I expect this kind of passion in a thread in one of my gun forums.

Disclaimer

I'm a huge fan of the bill of rights, all of them. I have a CWP from the state of Virginia and carry a concealed 9mm with me most of the time.
I lost several friends in the Pentagon on 9/11. Any mention of laws pertain to the Commonwealth of Virginia only.

IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.

As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.

The hospital down the road form me has a sign proclaiming "No Weapons Allowed". If I chose to ignore that sign and bring my Glock with me inside I have broken no law, all the hospital can do is ask me to leave. Should I refuse then I am guilty of Criminal Trespass a Class 1 misdemeanor under Va law. If there was a sign indicating No Cameras the same would hold true.

LEO's local, state, or federal perform a job that few would want to do. They can only hope that when they pull over that SUV with the tinted windows at 3:00am that there are not 4 bangers inside with Ak's. 

VA law says I don't have to notify a LEO that I'm armed should I be pulled over. Common sense says I'd be fool not to. Crazy folks out there shoot cops all the time. The key to a happy interaction with the police while armed is to do everything possible to let them know they are totally in charge of the situation. Their first responsibility is their safety. 

Whether you like it or not, this is not your fathers world of the 40's and 50's. It's full of dangerous and crazy people, and if a LEO thinks his life is in danger you may find yourself kissing concrete and cuffed while things are sorted out.

Bruce


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## SecondShot (Aug 29, 2010)

bruce282 said:


> IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.
> 
> As far the MD dude getting thumped, I'm not sure what part of the constitution gives him the right to block a public street and be part of a mob that was starting fires and destroying other peoples property. This was the 2nd time in recent history this had happened at UMd. According to the local news, the student body was warned before hand. I can only guess their parents were really proud of their little darlings.



1) He needs no other reason than the want of taking pictures of buildings. It matters _NOT_ if it is a Four Seasons Hotel, a Federal Office Building, a Courthouse, or a Police Station. It doesn't preclude police to inquire about what you're doing, perhaps. But knowing his rights were key. Hats off to him for knowing it, sticking to his ground, and funny enough, the police couldn't do anything more. You didn't see them detaining him, arresting him - they just let him go, because they had nothing else. You'll note that he also went to take pictures in broad daylight, with the same response. 

2) You must be viewing some other video, because I do not see the kid who was beat in the middle of a mob, nor was he blocking a public street, starting fires, or destroying others' property. Yet he's certainly getting the full force of about 3-4 Riot Police Officer's Batons to the neck and back. He was also charged with assaulting a police horse, but I didn't see him strike any one, let alone any horse. In your version of the video, did you catch it? Maybe they were having a bad day? Maybe they decided that they'd rather attack this "kid" instead of the ones blocking the on-campus street. I guess their wives were really proud of their dear hubby's.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 29, 2010)

Brutus said:


> ...because of how often police enforce laws that don't exist and are never caught because of people not knowing their rights or because the person has no way to show their rights were abused.



And some people are doing something about it.

Copwatch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Josh66 (Aug 29, 2010)

SecondShot said:


> bruce282 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.
> ...


I think it's still clear that the whole point of the 'photo outing' was to provoke a reaction from law enforcement though...

Yeah, he has every right to go take the pictures, but he probably could have handled it differently and still came home with the same pictures.

If you were to go try to do the same thing, I think you would have to go into it knowing that you might be spending the night in jail.
Yeah, he most likely would have been released without being charged, but that's not something most people would want to gamble on.

What if he did get arrested, and his 'evidence' somehow got corrupted, erased, or just 'lost'?  Yeah, it would be illegal for them to do that, and most cops probably wouldn't, but some would...  In court, it would be your word against a cops word.

I've seen them forget to document things on evidence sheets (everyone just plain forgets sometimes) before, and it wouldn't surprise me if every now and then some of them 'accidentally' leave it in the car when they process you in...

I've been arrested before for BS where I was later released with no charges, and half the crap I had wasn't even on the inventory.  I got it all back, but there was no record that I ever had it.  If any of it had gotten 'lost' there would be no way for me to prove I had it in the first place.  I think that was just a case where they just forgot to write it down...

Everyone assumes that just because you didn't do anything, they can't arrest you.  They can do pretty much anything they want...

I don't know what the law is in other states, but in Texas they have 2 years to file charges on you from the time of arrest.  And I hear that's relatively short compared to other states...

They'll spend that time trying to build a case on you, and if they can - they charge you.  If they can't - no charges filed, but you still had to spend the night in jail.

Do you really want to have to call the courthouse every week for 2 years to find out if you have to appear in court?  I had to do that ... and yes, it's BS - it ended up just going away, but I still had to spend the weekend in jail (got arrested Saturday night, lol - you just have to sit there till Monday morning).

I don't know if I was ever even 'technically' under arrest - they didn't read me my rights (but I don't think they really have to, so that might not mean anything), and I was never arraigned.  They just let me walk out Monday morning.  No charges filed, never saw a judge, and then it was my responsibility to call every week for 2 years to make sure they weren't going to file something on me.

If a few pictures is worth that to you, go for it.


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## DerekSalem (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm not debating his rights to take pictures there...and I'm not debating his rights on whether to answer questions or provide ID.

What I'm complaining about is how the guy specifically went to that destination to elicit a response. He had a video camera running and said specific things to elicit a response.

He may have been legally fine in doing what he did...but he did it all just to elicit a response from the cop to show off his rights.

So ya, he was legally fine to do what he did and he was "pushing the law" in those terms (since he was within the law), but he was pushing the fact that he was within the law *JUST* to elicit a response from a cop. That's irresponsible and immature.


All he had to do was politely, and humbly, give the cop what he wanted. If he would have worked with the cop in the first place there would have been no problem. Speaking as someone in the military it would be *much* nicer if people did that because it takes away fear. I have more cop friends than I care to admit (being someone that doesn't really trust cops) and they all say the same thing: the reason they usually don't trust people is because they're fearful of a reaction.

The cops just wanted to know that these guys weren't there to do something that would negatively affect the people in the area. Sure, they don't have a *RIGHT* to know what the guys were doing there...but they were rightfully curious and just wanted to make sure the situation was safe. Being a police officer is one of the most dangerous domestic jobs in the country and people trying to hide things doesn't exactly instill confidence in the officers.

So put your rights above the safety and feelings of others. That should make the situation better.


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## bruce282 (Aug 29, 2010)

SecondShot said:


> bruce282 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO unless there was really something special about the federal buildings in Tampa that can only be captured at night that guy was there to see what would happen. Does he always shoot with a video camera running.
> ...


 
1. And the point I made was he was there to stir up crap, not to photograph a federal building at night. Maybe his real goal was to get his 5 minutes of fame on youtube, I don't know. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. Like it or not we have no knock warrants, the FISA court and the Patriot Act. 

2. No I don't have any secret video. No one has any video following our friend from the time the Duke game ended until he ran into his problem, so both of us have to assume what happened prior to the video shown. Do I think the cops overreacted, yup. Do I think the guy was stupid for being where he was, when he was, yup. If he was smart enough to get into UMd he should have been smart enough to look around and realize that things were becoming out of hand. Since you live in Maryland I assume you are familiar with all the crap that went on after they won the National Championship, the student body was warned not to do it again. 

I'm not stupid enough to think that every LEO in the country is a fair haired upstanding person. You live a state where a former governor had to resign as VP due to criminal charges, we both live next to city where the "mayor for live" liked smoking crack, and I live in state where several local officials have been indited on charges.

The USA is not a perfect place, but I can't think of any other place I would rather live. 

Bruce


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## Ron Evers (Aug 29, 2010)

Setting an example:


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## DennyCrane (Aug 29, 2010)

I've never seen a metric patrol car before...


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## Ron Evers (Aug 29, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> I've never seen a metric patrol car before...



Laf,  snapshot or photograph?  

Me being bad again.


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## Heck (Aug 30, 2010)

I had a few chats with cops. I expect it every time I shoot now.


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