# Beginner wanting a GREAT DSLR camera to use for future business - Any suggestions???



## yooperGirl (Oct 15, 2010)

Any suggestions on a GREAT DSLR camera for a determined beginner wanting to start a (near)future photography business? Nikon or Canon? I heard the D700 is great, but I'd like HD. Ideas? Suggestions? Is it possible to buy used? If so, where? I am totally new to this and welcome your feedback!

Thanks!


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## table1349 (Oct 16, 2010)

The only way to go since you are going to be a professional.
H4D launch


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## Jeatley (Oct 16, 2010)

I have to ask,  what are you shooting with now and what are your plans for the future.  Also what background do you have and what budget are you working with?


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## TiCoyote (Oct 16, 2010)

Check out www.dpreview.com or www.thedigitalpicture.com or www.cnet.com for reviews.


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## inTempus (Oct 16, 2010)

D3X, you'll be a pro the moment you open the box.


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## D-B-J (Oct 16, 2010)

inTempus said:


> D3X, you'll be a pro the moment you open the box.


 

Is that what their catch phrase is?!:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## pbelarge (Oct 16, 2010)

Canon send a certificate of pro upon receipt of payment.....:thumbup:


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## table1349 (Oct 16, 2010)

With the Hasselblad you get a contract for three Marie Clair photo shoots.


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## zoogirlbc (Oct 16, 2010)

Play nice you guys  
You need to be more specific - "to use for future business" is VERY broad. Do you want to do portraits, landscapes, weddings, events, stock, etc? What is your budget? 

The D700 is great, I bought mine 2nd hand with a whole pile of goodies for 1/2 retail. The only thing is as with any electronics you have to be careful when buying used! I got mine checked out by a local camera repair guy and it's worked great for me so far but you can be unlucky and get someone else's junk.


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## table1349 (Oct 16, 2010)

Perhaps the more important thing would be for the OP to advise why they believe that they can make a business of this.  What experience do they have in photography, in starting and running a business etc.  Not trying to be mean to the OP here, but a "Great DSLR" does not a professional or more importantly, an accomplished photographer make. I like to watch racing, I own a car, that does not make me a professional race car driver.  

When I see threads of this nature with the types of questions asked here it makes me wonder what the OP is thinking.  A good photographer, an accomplished photographer, one that can make a living at it has a background and a foundation to build on.  They have an understanding of the field and an ability to build on that foundation. Photography is no different than any other pursuit in life.  It takes knowledge hard work and dedication to succeed.  They don't have to ask the very most basic of questions such as the one the OP posted.


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## dcmoody23 (Oct 16, 2010)

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm sorry I find you (ALL) to be acting like complete jerks.  It's a serious question, and the way you're treating him/her is ridiculous.
Okay, you've established that a camera won't make you pro --

Since you didn't supply your background I'm going to go ahead and give you the advice i'd give myself if I was in your situation - 
Ready for it?
Buy a bottom end DSLR and stock up on sweet lenses until you understand photography (there's a learning curve). Have lots of money? Buy a mid end DSLR and stock up on sweet lenses.  Have it so good that money is no option? Buy the very top of the line DSLR and a bunch of amazing lenses..
If you're 'average' then get yourself a bottom end camera and a top of the line lens (and then your second and third and so on once you figure out what you want in a lens (length).. And then when you understand exposure and composition, upgrade your body and get yourself a good desktop computer and photo editor, along with some good books to digest that new photo editor of yours, and then go pro


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## tirediron (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm sure it is a serious question; a serious question that gets asked in one form or another on this board several times each day.  The problem with this particular serious question is that it gives the distinct impression that the poster can't be bothered to do any of their own research.  Since they've posted here, they obviously have Internet access, therefore, plugging a phrase such as "DSLR with HD Video" into a search-engine would have given a starting point.  A further query such as "<Camera> review" would provide a wealth of information.

Had the OP done a little work and posted a question with sufficient information, such as "I have $XXX to spend on a camera and lenses for a business I want to start centered around <type of photography>.  I am considering cameras X, Y, and Z - what do you recommend?"  I am willing to be that there would have been a slew of detailed, useful posts.

The simple fact is, many of the knowledgeable posters here don't see a lot of point in doing someone's work for them.  They are more than willing to help, but not to do all the work.


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## KmH (Oct 17, 2010)

yooperGirl said:


> Is it possible to buy used? If so, where? I am totally new to this and welcome your feedback!
> 
> Thanks!


 
+1 to what tirediron said.

The "Is it possible to buy used? If so, where?" part made me spew Mountain Dew when I laughed out loud.

The OP's credit, she used capital letters and proper punctuation.

I wonder what this "determined beginer' will do when she needs to learn how to do strobed light photography, drag a shutter, and discovers she has to buy a license to use her HD, MPEG 4 files commercially.


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## manaheim (Oct 17, 2010)

tirediron said:


> I'm sure it is a serious question; a serious question that gets asked in one form or another on this board several times each day. The problem with this particular serious question is that it gives the distinct impression that the poster can't be bothered to do any of their own research. Since they've posted here, they obviously have Internet access, therefore, plugging a phrase such as "DSLR with HD Video" into a search-engine would have given a starting point. A further query such as "<Camera> review" would provide a wealth of information.
> 
> Had the OP done a little work and posted a question with sufficient information, such as "I have $XXX to spend on a camera and lenses for a business I want to start centered around <type of photography>. I am considering cameras X, Y, and Z - what do you recommend?" I am willing to be that there would have been a slew of detailed, useful posts.
> 
> The simple fact is, many of the knowledgeable posters here don't see a lot of point in doing someone's work for them. They are more than willing to help, but not to do all the work.


 
+1, but in addition... there really is NO answering this question.

There are a few variables... like if the shooter-to-be is going to be doing a lot of low light photography, then high-ISO capabilities and full frame is likely key.  Lots of sports, frame rate will be important, etc.

Aside from that it's generally about budget.  A Nikon D40 will "work" for almost anything, but then so will a D3x.  If you buy a D3x, you'll have fewer limitations than you will with a D40... but can you afford it?

Not to mention... can you really use it?  Spending a metric ton of cash on some "really sweet glass" isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot for you if you don't know what you really need.  Example... I know someone who bought a 70-200 2.8 VR... only to find out that what they REALLY needed for their business was a wide angle.  Whoops.  

Or someone else who spent tons of money on that super-fast lens, but it turns out they are always outside in bright light and their camera wasn't fast enough to keep up with their sports shooting... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they were out of money.  Whoops.  

The point is don't go asserting what people need to do until you have the foggiest notion on what they need or you'll be doing everyone a disservice.

And for the record, I am a professional, I do buy some very high quality gear to do my work, and I know the value of it... but I also know how to use it.


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## Jeatley (Oct 17, 2010)

I would really like people that post things like this to come back and answer peoples questions.  What bothers me most is the one post then run because people ask a ton of questions.  The more info they give the better anyone can help.   NO INFO NO Help.  Then they run off and tell people how cr9ppy this site is or other sites.  IT makes no sence to take the time to sign up ask one question then never come back!


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 17, 2010)

Likely they start seeing the responces to something they probalby thought was an easy answer for people who know about camera and decided they would go somewhere else. Granted her origonal post didn't have allot of information that was needed but allot of people got on her case about it in a somewhat negative way.


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## Derrel (Oct 17, 2010)

Why not buy a Canon 60D and then do one of those hip, new, super-cool Canon owner unboxing videos?  Canon 60D Unboxing Video.  cinema5D news


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Currently I shoot with a Sony Cybershot DSC-H3 Carl Zeiss Lens 8.1 mexapixels 10X Zoom

This basic point & shoot camera takes pretty decent outdoor pics but the inside pics are terrible

My future plans:
Family shoots, Birthday Parties, Family Gatherings, etc. Mostly outdoor shoots and  landscape shots, but I do plan to do some indoor architectural shots as well. Other than that, sporting events for my children.

My budget? Well...let's just say that I want to do whatever it takes to get a really good camera and equipment but I don't have a load of money just buried in my backyard somewhere!  
I want to buy right the first time. I don't want to buy middle of the road or "beginner" camera and then need to upgrade later on. I want to invest in the best now so that I can use it for quite awhile and be happy with what I have and not be kicking myself for going the cheaper route.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks!
I checked out the D700 and it was my first pick until I began thinking about wanting HD video capabilies. I would like to be able to do great video as well, so not sure if the D700 is what I need now.

Future Business Plans:
Family Shoots, Birthday Parties, Family Gatherings, (all mostly outdoors) landscape shots, indoor and outdoor architectural shots and some portraits. But, definately NO weddings!


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## Bram (Oct 17, 2010)

Buy a freakin 7d mkII and a D3x and be done with it.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

To: gryphonslair99

If you are referring to me, I have one question for you.

Did YOU start at the TOP? 
Everyone has to start somewhere. I didn't say I wanted to make a business of this overnight. I said "Future" which is vague, but it is in my future whether near or far future, it is something I have always dreamed of doing. Way to encourage someone!


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Bram said:


> Buy a freakin 7d mkII and a D3x and be done with it.


Thanks Bram


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

dcmoody23 said:


> I agree with what you're saying, but I'm sorry I find you (ALL) to be acting like complete jerks.  It's a serious question, and the way you're treating him/her is ridiculous.
> Okay, you've established that a camera won't make you pro --
> 
> Since you didn't supply your background I'm going to go ahead and give you the advice i'd give myself if I was in your situation -
> ...


To: dcmoody23

THANK YOU!!!
That's what I was looking for  Straight up, nice, knowledgeable, patient, humble, and friendly! THANKS! I will take your advice!


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

tirediron said:


> I'm sure it is a serious question; a serious question that gets asked in one form or another on this board several times each day.  The problem with this particular serious question is that it gives the distinct impression that the poster can't be bothered to do any of their own research.  Since they've posted here, they obviously have Internet access, therefore, plugging a phrase such as "DSLR with HD Video" into a search-engine would have given a starting point.  A further query such as "<Camera> review" would provide a wealth of information.
> 
> Had the OP done a little work and posted a question with sufficient information, such as "I have $XXX to spend on a camera and lenses for a business I want to start centered around <type of photography>.  I am considering cameras X, Y, and Z - what do you recommend?"  I am willing to be that there would have been a slew of detailed, useful posts.
> 
> The simple fact is, many of the knowledgeable posters here don't see a lot of point in doing someone's work for them.  They are more than willing to help, but not to do all the work.


To: tirediron

I have done some of my own research but since I am a BEGINNER at this, I thought I would throw my ignorant question out there to see if I could get some advice on a good camera from people on here that obviously know cameras. I am not interested in seeing reviews on certain websites not knowing if the site(s) are just trying to push their product. If you were looking for a good doctor or dentist would you go to the internet first? or, would you ask a friend or friend of a freind, family member, etc.? I tend to ask around before I check out reviews online. So, with throwing my question out there, I was asking for some suggestions from people on here that own cameras. Which do they like? What has worked for them? What stinks? Etc etc etc...

I do agree that I should have indicated what kind of camera I own now, what my background is, etc. That would have been helpful.

And, by the way, I'm not asking anyone to do my homework for me. I just wanted a little advice from some pros. I am obviously at the bottom here.


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## Overread (Oct 17, 2010)

yooperGirl said:


> My future plans:
> Family shoots, Birthday Parties, Family Gatherings, etc. Mostly outdoor shoots and  landscape shots, but I do plan to do some indoor architectural shots as well. Other than that, sporting events for my children.



Reading that list I'm very tempted to say that you might want to start with a fullframe camera body rather than an entry level (which are all 1.6crop). This refers to the size of the sensor in the camera body, with fullframe being the same size as a regular 35mm film. 

The importance of this is that with a fullframe sensor you get improved ISOs for low light work and natural light work - but also the larger sensor means that you get both a larger frame of view (things are less "zoomed in") and also you get increased blur of background areas. 

A lot of this is very vague unless you get experience (this is the tricky bit making the right choices requires experience that often people don't have when the start), but suffice to say that whilst there is no problem with using a 1.6 crop body for those areas of interest the preferred by most is a fullframe camera body (as far as DSLRs are concerned - those that really go higher up use medium and large formate which get very expensive very quickly). 

For canon the cheapest fullframe you can get is a 5D (either second hand or reconditioned since this line is now discontinued) and of course you'll need to pair it with some good lenses depending upon you remaining budget. This choice of fullframe or 1.6 crop is where I shift away from the general "get good lenses first and then a good camera body" advice simply because it has a great impact upon how you work - working with the frame coverage of a 1.6 is very different to that of a fullframe camera body.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

KmH said:


> yooperGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible to buy used? If so, where? I am totally new to this and welcome your feedback!
> ...


To: kmh

Thanks so much for the encouragement (sarcasm) and friendly welcome to this site. 
I didn't realize that photography world had so many rude people in it. Thanks.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 17, 2010)

id personally say skip buying the highest end camera right now. buy middle of the road and spend your money on high end lenses that you can carry over to a high end camera down the line. you can learn all the basics and learn the camera inside and out and learn how to take great photos,then when your at the point of starting your business you can invest in a high end camera and use all the high end lenses you have picked up over the years. and still have your middle of the road camera as a handy backup camera or just another camera to have a diffrent lenses on.



something im just thinking on and someone who is in a business might answer. but if you start your business up then buy a new camera wouldn't that be a tax rightoff?


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

manaheim said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure it is a serious question; a serious question that gets asked in one form or another on this board several times each day. The problem with this particular serious question is that it gives the distinct impression that the poster can't be bothered to do any of their own research. Since they've posted here, they obviously have Internet access, therefore, plugging a phrase such as "DSLR with HD Video" into a search-engine would have given a starting point. A further query such as "<Camera> review" would provide a wealth of information.
> ...


To: manaheim

Sincere thanks 
I guess there are a few nice people on here after all.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Jeatley said:


> I would really like people that post things like this to come back and answer peoples questions.  What bothers me most is the one post then run because people ask a ton of questions.  The more info they give the better anyone can help.   NO INFO NO Help.  Then they run off and tell people how cr9ppy this site is or other sites.  IT makes no sence to take the time to sign up ask one question then never come back!


To: Jeatley

I didn't disappear. I have a life and I have had a busy weekend.
Thanks so much for the friendly welcome.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

12sndsgood said:


> Likely they start seeing the responces to something they probalby thought was an easy answer for people who know about camera and decided they would go somewhere else. Granted her origonal post didn't have allot of information that was needed but allot of people got on her case about it in a somewhat negative way.


To: 12sndsgood

Thanks 
And, you're right, I am tempted to run after all the "positive" help that I have had flying my way.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Why not buy a Canon 60D and then do one of those hip, new, super-cool Canon owner unboxing videos?  Canon 60D Unboxing Video.  cinema5D news


Thanks Derrell


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## yooperGirl (Oct 17, 2010)

Overread said:


> yooperGirl said:
> 
> 
> > My future plans:
> ...


To: overread

Thank you so much for a great reply and for being friendly 
I appreciate your input more than you know and THANK YOU for taking the time to help me out  I will take all of your advice


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## table1349 (Oct 17, 2010)

yooperGirl said:


> To: gryphonslair99
> 
> If you are referring to me, I have one question for you.
> 
> ...



No I started in a photographers studio lugging lights, holding reflectors, changing sets and watching and learning.  When I showed the owner of the studio that I was serious about my interest in photography he began to talk to me while he was shooting, explaining lighting, lenses etc.  

I started by reading about photography, the basics, things like aperture, shutter speed, ASA (film days) and how they worked together. Great thing about being a freshman in high school, no body checked out the photography books much.  

I started by mixing chemicals in a darkroom, being taught how to process film, how to make positives from negatives and always, how to clean up when we were done.  I started working a lot after school and on weekends because photographers that want to make a living work when their clients want/need them and working for a professional photographer meant being that gofer on his time not mine.   

I started with a rangefinder until I got my feet on the ground and with what all I had learned I bought a used Nikon F and some good glass.  I then added a used F2 body to my gear always buying the best glass I could afford and learning to get around the limitations when I didn't have the money for the glass I wanted to add. Above all I put in the time, effort, and sweat that it took to get to the point where I thought I might be able to do something with this.  A lot of that sweat had nothing to do directly with holding a camera, for there is a whole lot more to being a successful professional photographer than being behind a camera. 

You want encouragement, what I would encourage you to do is to set the dream down for a while and educate yourself about photography.  Not picture taking with a P&S but photography as a whole.  That includes gear.  If you had a basic understanding of gear you would know that bodies come and go.  Good glass will last a lifetime.  I would rather shoot a XTi with L glass attached than a 1Ds MkIII with a EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 on the front. 

I would encourage you to sharpen your math and physics skills.  The foundation of photography is math and physics.  That way when you get into an unfamiliar situation you will have the foundation to be able to figure out what to do. 

I would encourage you to take business classes.  Successful photographers that are able to make a living from photography spend only about 1/3 of their time actually behind the camera.  If you don't have business sense to go with the photography you are doomed to fail.

I would encourage you to learn about starting a business, from getting business loans, insurance, taxes, etc. to how to develop a business plan and where you can go to get the financing you need. 

I would encourage you to also learn about the human side of starting and running your own business such as this.  "_Family shoots, Birthday Parties, Family Gatherings, etc. Mostly outdoor shoots and  landscape shots"_ do not for most photographers pay the bills.  There are a few that can, but they are rare.  

There are two basic venues in photography that pay the bills, commercial work and weddings.  It usually starts with weddings.  Funny thing about weddings they just never seem to happen in the middle of the week when the kids are at school.  They happen on Friday nights and Saturdays for the most part.  The same time that kids play a lot of their sports.  You will have to decide, food on the table or shot the kids playing sports.  

I would encourage you to make sure you have other skills to fall back on.  Photographers are a dime a dozen these days.  The ones with the most talent and business skills are the ones making a living at it, the others are making some money from it when they are not working their main job.

I would encourage you to develop your communication skills.  

_"Any suggestions on a GREAT DSLR camera for a determined beginner wanting  to start a (near)future photography business? Nikon or Canon? I heard  the D700 is great, but I'd like HD. Ideas? Suggestions? Is it possible  to buy used? If so, where? I am totally new to this and welcome your  feedback_ _ Thanks" 

_With this as the whole questions then I will stick to my original answer and get a Hasselblad, H4D.  There is not much better than this if you want the "Best Camera."  Yes the H4D is a DSLR, just the top of the line medium format DSLR with a top of the line price. 

Finally if you first post is indicative of your work ethic then I would encourage you to work on that aspect first and foremost.  You asked a question that shows no serious thought and expected people to divine from that question what would be a "Great DSLR" that would be perfect for what you wanted.  You get out of this world what you put into it.  

If you do some of the things that I have suggested and do some serious research into all the things listed, then pick that dream up and look at it again.  The shine may have faded a bit, but if it is a dream that you still believe you want then at least you will know how to accomplish that dream and when it has been accomplished.  Good luck.


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## Derrel (Oct 17, 2010)

Seriously original poster...work on your communications skills...and maybe become a bit more familiar with the way things work on this forum. People will take the time to help a newcomer who appears,and who communicates with a well formulated question or even a series of questions. Vague, often-repeated, empty, and unqualified questions will receive sardonic, sarcastic,flippant, incredulous, or throw-away answers--depending on who replies to said vague, often-repeated, empty, unqualified questions. S0, work on the internet forum communications skill set if you wish to be able to utilize the experience of a collective of older, more-experienced photographers as a resource.


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## zoogirlbc (Oct 18, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> No I started in a photographers studio lugging lights, holding reflectors, changing sets and watching and learning.  When I showed the owner of the studio that I was serious about my interest in photography he began to talk to me while he was shooting, explaining lighting, lenses etc.
> 
> I started by reading about photography, the basics, things like aperture, shutter speed, ASA (film days) and how they worked together. Great thing about being a freshman in high school, no body checked out the photography books much.
> 
> ...



Sounds like someone is kind of bitter that they had to bust their butt to become successful and have nice gear.

Not everyone goes the same route as you did to become a pro and run their own business. I taught myself my profession, made a couple bucks doing small jobs for people, took 2 short online courses and landed a full time job in that field only after having done it for a very short time and with very little training. Now I am not as good as the guys who went to school but I'm getting paid to do it and also being trained as I go. 

Yooper, welcome to the forum. I hope you don't judge everyone on here by their rude sarcastic remarks. I am sure some people are getting tired of newbies who come and go with the same old q's but they forget that they were once new too. 

If you have any questions about Nikon specifically, I own both the D90 and the D700 and have done extensive reading about both before buying them. I am no pro but I am willing to  share what I've learned with you.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 18, 2010)

although gryphonslair99's post  had a bit of sarcasm to it, it had allot of helpful information in it that i don't think allot of people really put thought into when they start taking a few pics and then decide they want to make it a profession.


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## manaheim (Oct 18, 2010)

And now we come to the part of the thread where someone who had it easier accuses someone else of being bitter.

Very useful and productive.


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## yooperGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

Private Message to yooperGirl from Derrel:

"The reply you received here is worth a re-post. Agreed: work on your communications skills. A lot. Your entire attitude here has been one of "do ALL my research for me while I dick around all weekend and expect to come back to a passel full of helpful,smiling,friendly,complete,knowledgeable replies. TO a newbie who has contributed nothing, but wants and expects to be treated to the royal treatment,and have all of her research done for her. There is absolutely NO OTHER WAY to frame your attitude and manner here, OP. Yiou came here, asked, left, and expected everybody here to divine your interests,budget, needs, and plans, and then acted all smarmy when you were not catered to like a diva. Seriously...work on your communications skills..." 

You already ate me up, spit me out and crushed me into the dirt, why send a private message when you've already been slamming me openly?
Ok, here's my repost:

Thank you sincerely to the few people on here that took me seriously and were kind and helpful. 
OBVIOUSLY I am new here, but not uneducated. I already own my own business in another field of work and have been VERY successful at it. I have been to college and taken some business classes, and I have been doing bookkeeping for over 10 years. So, with that said, try not to make assumptions by someone's 1st post on here that, I agree, was a bit vague. My future plan is to do photography as a second job and because I ENJOY it. Notice: I ENJOY it!
Sooooo, have fun with your little forum that seems to occupy every spare minute of your time by attacking little fish(that have no communication skills) with your BIG shark attitude. Your posts say much more about you than your knowledge of photography. It spells out UNHAPPY in capital letters.

Again, thank you to those that gave kind, helpful replies which I will take to heart and sincerely appreciate. And to all of the others who were so unkind, I can now see why one poster said that people leave this site so soon after joining. Nice welcoming!

* YooperGirl (the noobie who got little help and major bashing) has PERMANETLY left this site.....

P.S. To Derrel, I didn't "Dick" around all weekend. I have a life!


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## yooperGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

To: zoogirlbc

Sincere thanks for being welcoming and friendly  I wish you all of the best!


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## Dao (Oct 18, 2010)

yooperGirl said:


> I am new here, but not uneducated. I already own my own business in another field of work and have been VERY successful at it. I have been to college and taken some business classes, and I have been doing bookkeeping for over 10 years. So, with that said, try not to make assumptions by someone's 1st post on here that, I agree, was a bit vague. My future plan is to do photography as a second job and because I ENJOY it. Notice: I ENJOY it!
> !



YooperGirl,

I believe if you include the above paragraph in the original post, things may end differently.


It is not possible for others to read your mind, and there are quit a lot of photography beginners started threads like your original post in here in the past.  So I believe that's why other forum members react like that.  


What they did ....  were just being honest.   I bet if you include more details and start a new thread, you will receive different kinds of responses.


Good luck. :hugs:


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## inTempus (Oct 18, 2010)

YooperGril, it's in extremely bad taste to repost a private message publicly.  It's called a "private message" for a reason.

As to your OP;

If we had a dollar for every time a new user came here claiming they want the best DSLR they can buy so that one day they can be a professional photographer we would be filthy rich.  It's something that once you're around photography and the forms for a while you'll realize rubs many users the wrong way... especially professional photographers that deal with every Tom, Dick and Harry running out buying a Rebel and starting a "photography business" the next day.  These folks often times lack anything resembling skill, talent, artistic aptitude, or even common sense.  They undercut working pros that try to make a living producing quality work by flooding their local markets with low quality crap, and ultimately giving the whole profession a black eye.

It should take years before you're ready to even remotely consider opening a professional studio.  You should find a mentor that's an accomplished photographer and work under them for a considerable amount of time learning how not only to take a high quality images under every imaginable scenario, but also more important skills such as posing, lighting, working with people, and *photography* business sense.  Just because you like something doesn't mean you'll be good at it.  I like photography too, but I also realize I suck at it most of the time.  Just because you're a good accountant doesn't mean you'll be a good photographer.

I'm an accomplished executive with over 20 years in a highly competitive field.  I've also owned my own advertising agency with over 25 employees and serviced major accounts in multiple verticals.  Be that as it may, I still know that with my 2 years of photography experience I am no where near ready to take peoples money for  photography services and feel good about it.

By the time I'm ready to do it, assuming I ever take that step, the camera bodies I have today will likely be obsolete.  So asking what camera I should buy today so that I can be a professional photographer in 5 years is kind of a silly question.  That is, unless you plan on doing what most working professionals despise... and that's buying some low-end kit and running out to take people's money for services rendered when you lack anything resembling skill and further damaging the local market for professionals.

The questions you should be asking are:

1)  What camera would suit my needs as a novice yet grow with me as I learn more about photography?
2)  What books should I read so that I can better understand exposure and composition?
3)  Are there local meet-ups that I can attend to learn more?
4)  What stuff do I need to buy to complete my photography kit as a novice?
5)  How do I learn about post production?

...and the answers would look something like this:

1)  Any modern DSLR from Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sony, Olympus, etc. will suit your needs.  Each has their strengths and weakness, it's a matter of learning about what interests you in photography and buying the system that best supports those needs.  Also, ergonomics play a large role in how well someone works with a camera.  Go to a local store and try different brands/models out.  Shoot with them, go through their menus, have the salesman show you the ropes on the bodies.  Remember, buy carefully because most people invest quite a bit of money in lenses and other accessories as their hobby grows.  What you buy today will likely force you to stay with that particular brand for several years, if not forever.  Switching brands after you have 5-10 lenses, flashes, filters, etc. can be a hassle not to mention you can lose quite a bit of money selling everything and buying new stuff.  I prefer to stick with the big two, either Canon or Nikon.

2)  There are a whole bunch of books out there which can help you get started.  "Understanding Exposure" is a great first book.  Also, Scott Kelby has a whole slew of great books for beginners.

3)  Yes, check out Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup and find a local group or two.  You can learn tons from working with other photographers.  You can also find classes and get studio time through that site.  It's a great resource.

4)  Start off with a good body, decent kit lens like the 18-55 or 28-135, and get a flash.  Learn to use those tools.  Once you have a basic understanding of things, you'll discover where to go from there.  What lenses you'll want next, what filters, what accessories...  Hit the Canon and Nikon websites to see what's in your price range and Digital Cameras: Digital Photography Review, News, Reviews, Forums, FAQ for reliable reviews of the kits you're looking at.

5)  Post production is just as important as capturing a quality image with the camera.  It's also one of the most challenging parts of photography for many people, myself included.  Buy books, find local Photoshop groups (meetup.com), take courses, and practice.  

Hopefully that helps.


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## KmH (Oct 18, 2010)

yooperGirl said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > yooperGirl said:
> ...


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## Derrel (Oct 18, 2010)

Yooper Girl.
   As InTempus pointed out, it is considered bad form to post a Private Message. I was trying to spare you the public humiliation of seeing my comments in open forum. A couple of people here have tried to give you some advice, and your attitude toward them has been very,very dismissive. I think Gryphonslair and InTempus are making a very concerted effort to help you, despite the way you burst on the scene a few days ago,expecting a bushel full of wonderful, happy, cheerful replies to your rather vague question. I hope by the time you have 25 replies under your belt, that you get a better grasp on the way internet forums actually work. Best of luck to you in the photography business, which is mostly a person-to-person kinda' business.


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## table1349 (Oct 18, 2010)

> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > YooperGril, it's in extremely bad taste to repost a private message publicly.  It's called a "private message" for a reason.
> ...


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## manaheim (Oct 18, 2010)

My god, people.

The only thing more common than noobs posting messages like this is, a horde of people dog-piling on the poster and beating them bloody with their own various issues and insecurities.

You'd think that those of you who are sick of this stuff would realize that trying to beat some random person on the internet into submission is about as productive as shouting at the rain and just kinda move on.

There's plenty of people on this thread with thousands of posts here. We all know perfectly well that no matter how many of us think that any given inexperienced person shouldn't be doing this or that... that they do... and that some of them actually succeed at it. Doesn't seem right, but it's reality. May as well express your concerns, but good lord... call it quits at some point, ya?


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## MattxMosh (Oct 18, 2010)

You only need one thing to be pro.

"
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 skills"


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 18, 2010)

manaheim said:


> My god, people.
> 
> The only thing more common than noobs posting messages like this is, a horde of people dog-piling on the poster and beating them bloody with their own various issues and insecurities.
> 
> ...


 



 Good point. If the type of question asked by the original poster offends anyone you can always just ignore it and move on. If your tired of answering the same question by noobs then don't, its quite simple and doesnt require allot of effort.


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## Derrel (Oct 18, 2010)

manaheim said:


> My god, people.
> 
> The only thing more common than noobs posting messages like this is, a horde of people dog-piling on the poster and beating them bloody with their own various issues and insecurities.
> 
> ...



Thank you for saving our collective souls from a life-long period of roaming Internet Forum Purgatory and wondering , "I wonder what ever happened to what's her name?". You are our savior! Without you, we would all be lesser men. Thank you! Thank you! We're not worthy! We're not worthy!


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## inTempus (Oct 19, 2010)




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## manaheim (Oct 19, 2010)

I evidently didn't get the joke.  I must have my Derrel Sarcasm filter turned up too high.


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## Mike_E (Oct 19, 2010)

OK, so who won?


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## tirediron (Oct 19, 2010)

Mike_E said:


> OK, so who won?


 
Not sure; I lost count, but this is the best train-wreck we've had here in a while!


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## pgriz (Oct 19, 2010)

Laughs aside, the request from a newbie to help them pick the equipment is a very common one.  We tend to be a little rough, forgetting, perhaps, that it takes a certain amount of knowledge just to frame the right question.  The usual answer to that type of question is &#8220;it depends&#8221;.  Taking newbies to task for not doing the research (also known as googling&#8230 isn&#8217;t always fair as we all know that the internet, wonderful as it is, has as much mis-information as it does information, and there are few pointers on how to figure out which is which.

Surely, with a group having the wealth of talent and experience as this one has (and no, I&#8217;m not being sarcastic), can organize the relevant answers into a number of FAQ sections, that would be referenced whenever these kind of questions come up.  This will add value to the forum, and also allow newbies to feel more welcome to participate if they are not being judged.  I am a beginner of 40+ years of experience, and I find that the more I know, the more I am aware of my remaining ignorance.  Some of my best learning experiences happened when I was mentoring new photographers &#8211; their naïve questions caused me to think hard about what I had assumed or taken as gospel.  Those of you with young children often participate in the wonder of discovering the world all over again through their eyes &#8211; and it is magic.  So let us also benefit from some of these questions &#8211; maybe some of our cherished &#8220;truths&#8221; deserve to be re-examined.


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## manaheim (Oct 19, 2010)

Good idea but I believe TPF has some kind of no-FAQ policy. 

What we really need here is some kind of BNGO card for TPF.  Everyone gets a random card sorted by the topic mentioned and you have to hit it like 20x to put a counter on that spot.

I give us about 40 minutes before someone gets a BINGO.


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## table1349 (Oct 19, 2010)

You mean these frequently asked questions? The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - FAQ


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## manaheim (Oct 19, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> You mean these frequently asked questions? The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - FAQ


 
Those are kinda different than the ones I was thinking...

Q: What kind of camera should I buy?
Q: What makes a professional? (eek!)
Q: Should I upgrade my lens or my camera?
Q: Why is color correction important?
Q: How many megapixels do I need?
Q: Why does red make it go FFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAASTAAAAAAH?


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## Overread (Oct 19, 2010)

manaheim said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > You mean these frequently asked questions? The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - FAQ
> ...



The problem is not just making the FAQ but keeping it current - some such as which camera should I get require regular impartial updating with newer models and such. 

Also da evil pointy elves gots da new toyz! :mrgreen:


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2010)

pgriz said:


> Laughs aside, the request from a newbie to help them pick the equipment is a very common one.  We tend to be a little rough, forgetting, perhaps, that it takes a certain amount of knowledge just to frame the right question.  The usual answer to that type of question is it depends.  Taking newbies to task for not doing the research (also known as googling) isnt always fair as we all know that the internet, wonderful as it is, has as much mis-information as it does information, and there are few pointers on how to figure out which is which.
> 
> Surely, with a group having the wealth of talent and experience as this one has (and no, Im not being sarcastic), can organize the relevant answers into a number of FAQ sections, that would be referenced whenever these kind of questions come up.  This will add value to the forum, and also allow newbies to feel more welcome to participate if they are not being judged.  I am a beginner of 40+ years of experience, and I find that the more I know, the more I am aware of my remaining ignorance.  Some of my best learning experiences happened when I was mentoring new photographers  their naïve questions caused me to think hard about what I had assumed or taken as gospel.  Those of you with young children often participate in the wonder of discovering the world all over again through their eyes  and it is magic.  So let us also benefit from some of these questions  maybe some of our cherished truths deserve to be re-examined.



Who remembers the "old days" on the Internet, WWW, message boards, Usenet photography groups,etc etc? I do. There used to be a very common Netiquette FAQ,on every board or group, that admonished newbies to more or less, "hang out a while, and see how things are done, and do a search of the forum, before posting a new question." The emphasis was on "hanging out" or lurking for at least a little tiny while, to see how things were done, and only then to begin to participate. In other words, get your feet wet a little, get at least some semblance of the feel for the partiocular forum, and only then, begin to participate.

Does anybody recall those days, and the word "Netiquette"? This thread is a prime example of a newcomer coming in, asking a poorly framed, vague question, and one which had been asked and answered maybe 100 times, and then getting all "pi$$y" because she was not catered to like a diva. I am sorry if that analysis of the situation puts anybody off, but it is absolutely the way I see this situation. The newcomer's question was met with a general lack of enthusiasm, ridicule, sarcasm, and jokes, by multiple people because, surprise,surprise, this forum,like ALL forums, has expected standards of behavior, and timelines for replies...

Now, had yooper girl had hung around long enough to exercise common Netiquette before having posted her OP, she would have realized this is not a dead board; when a question is asked it gets almost immediate response. Posing a question here and then disappearing for two days and then returning with smart-aleck comments after having violated the norms of this forum was, well,let's just say it demonstrated a lack of respect and familiarity with this entire board's normal day-to-day speed, and a lack of familiarity and respect for the several people that provide most of the C&C, content, analysis, commentary,humor, plain answers to vanilla questions, and in-depth answers to those harder questions to posters and questioners who show they want to GIVE a little something in exchange for having others do research and writing for their benefit. Give a little and get a lot in return. Good deal, no? Give almost nothing,and expect the world? Not a good deal.

You know, coming in and talking smack to tirediron and KmH and gryphonslair99 earns zero points in my book--those three people consistently do maybe 20 percent of the total heavy lifting here in TPF...


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## Overread (Oct 19, 2010)

Derrel said:


> The newcomer's question was met with a general lack of enthusiasm, ridicule, sarcasm, and jokes, by multiple people because, surprise,surprise, this forum,like ALL forums, has expected standards of behavior, and timelines for replies...



Etiquette works both ways and many would say that one should always aim to lead by example. If sarcasm and ridicule are part of the norm greeting then one could say the idea of lurking is flawed from the start because it would only induce more of such behaviour. 

Often we encounter people who ask the wrong questions or who consider points incorrectly or from the wrong angle and replies like "google it" "search for it" are not going to help them because they are already looking the wrong way. Sometimes one has to exercise either silence or patience when dealing with others since how you treat others is going to directly affect how they reply. Put them on the defensive first with an assault and things tend to go downhill fast and things quickly become about the score and not about the content. 

Generally speaking I'd like it if more people would either turn to help someone - either try to direct them toward the right questions to consider or toward the right answers - or if they feel they can't be bothered with "another mum with a camera" type thread then just put on a new music track and walk away from the thread. I fail to understand this compulsion some have to be horribly derisory toward strangers.


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## manaheim (Oct 19, 2010)

For the record, I wasn't "talking smack" to any of those souls.  They're all good guys in my book.

My point was only that it's probably better to just blow the post off entirely than to put on the display that we did here.  Or just give some fairly vague answer... or one similar to what you said there with "hang out a while, do a search, etc."  We didn't exactly do that, though... certainly not at first.

Mind you, I don't exactly blame anyone- the longer you are on here the more you are prone to having a day of snarky responses.  It's why I'm not on here as much and why I periodically just phase out entirely for a while.  

*shrug*


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2010)

manaheim said:


> For the record, I wasn't "talking smack" to any of those souls.  They're all good guys in my book.
> 
> My point was only that it's probably better to just blow the post off entirely than to put on the display that we did here.  Or just give some fairly vague answer... or one similar to what you said there with "hang out a while, do a search, etc."  We didn't exactly do that, though... certainly not at first.
> 
> ...



Oh, no manaheim *you* were decidedly not talking smack to those guys....no, not you. My comments about talking smack were directed not at you, but at the way the OP came back on the original set of half-hearted replies that she received for,basically,expecting this place to work the way SHE would like it to work, rather than the way it works in the real-world. I think the OP's replies to the original post were out of line, given the way this place *actually functions* on a day-by-day basis. It'd be great if we could ALL, as a collective, exhibit perfect, wonderful,genteel behavior to the nth degree to each and every spammer, newbie, one-time poster, beginner, MWAC, GWAC, non-native English speaker,etc,etc,etc...but that is not the way internet boards actually work.

I have seen all categories of posters (spammer,newbie,MWAC/GWAC,old-timer, film-purist,digital purist, non-native speaker,etc,etc, handled myriad ways--from with the utmost courtesy, to derision, etc,etc. I appreciate your concern for the way this incident played out.


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## manaheim (Oct 19, 2010)

Ah.

Ok.

Well, thanks.

I'll shut up now.


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## Phil Holland (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm looking to be a beginner next year. What camera should I buy?


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2010)

Overread said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > The newcomer's question was met with a general lack of enthusiasm, ridicule, sarcasm, and jokes, by multiple people because, surprise,surprise, this forum,like ALL forums, has expected standards of behavior, and timelines for replies...
> ...



Seriously overread, you need to go back and review the actual timeline,and the way the OP handled her post. Your incessant attempt to compromise and please everybody seem rather patronizing in this instance. Really, they do. You are exhibiting a real Polyanna attitude,more so than normal. Please review her major 'tude upon returning basically two days later to a semi-mature thread...

Seems almost like a troll to me. And seriously, I wish you would please stop making excuses for her. She came, posted, and never returned until the weekend was almost over, and when she did, her poor form and general lack of respect for the way things actually work here resulted in MOST people responding negatively to her because she had violated the actual way this place works in the REAL world. 

Not the fantasy,ideal world. Not just one person reacted negatively-it was pretty much a demonstration of how societal norms actually function. Group dynamics in action. Let's all pray for world peace tonight. Black and white, living in harmony. Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney. Ebony and Ivory, living in harmony. Are you familiar with the cultural references here?

Search term: camera recommendations
results:

The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - Search Results

The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - Search Results

The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - Search Results

The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - Search Results

It goes on and then ends on the 14th page

The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum - Search Results


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## table1349 (Oct 19, 2010)

Phil Holland said:


> I'm looking to be a beginner next year. What camera should I buy?



A good one. :mrgreen:


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## sundowngraphics (Oct 20, 2010)

Get yourself a D40 with some good lenses.
I pickup up one used with 3 lenses for $600.00 and it works great.
Not a lot of bells and whistles and easy to use.
Lot of pros use it as their backup.


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## CapturemeSmiling (Oct 22, 2010)

I am a "new" student in college. I am taking a program for my bachelors in Photography.  I need an SLR camera.  I would like to get your opinion on the kit I seen at walmart.  It was a canon camera (rebel i think) in a box with an 18-55mm lens, and small tripod (which I have a larger one), and card, battery, strap, case etc.. anyways It was all that for 500 dollars.  Would I be wasting my time with such a camera, or should I look on ebay?  I seen a really nice nikon D70 at pawn shop for 850.00, with everything (flashes, batt paks, hard case, cables, owner manuel, Cards, and two lenses 18-70mm  and 70-300mm I think 300mm) But NO warranty on this at all. it is sold as is.. .. so "What would you do?" buy the one at walmart, or the one at the pawn shop?


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## tirediron (Oct 22, 2010)

Go with the new camera from Wal-mart.  The D70 was a good camera in it's day, but that kit sounds over-priced to me and it is "old" technology.  Assuming that the Canon is current technology, it will have greater resolution (The D70 is only 6.1Mp), better high-ISO noise handling and other things.


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## Ub3rdoRK (Oct 23, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> The only way to go since you are going to be a professional.
> H4D launch




i second this


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## PerfectlyFlawed (Oct 23, 2010)

MattxMosh said:


> You only need one thing to be pro.
> 
> "
> 
> ...



Lmao still at it huh


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## CapturemeSmiling (Oct 23, 2010)

Where do I begin in photography? When I get the camera, do I start with "Auto" mode?  I want to start from the beginning, and learn this stuff through and through. I do have the photoshop CS5, and adobe lightroom, and Illustrator. Photoshop is so exstensive and intimidating to me.  I have messed with very little in it. I have alot of photos I can mess with right now, but my fujipix camera broke.. so until I get a new SLR, im gonna focus on editing in photoshop (from the beginning).. O and photo organization.. what is the best way to name your files and file them correctly?.. Ugh.. I got so many questions here.. I want to learn it all in one day.. Please someone guide me


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## manaheim (Oct 23, 2010)

head -> desk


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## Mike_E (Oct 23, 2010)

Ya'll are going to get flagged for piling on.


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## KmH (Oct 24, 2010)

CapturemeSmiling said:


> Where do I begin in photography? When I get the camera, do I start with "Auto" mode? I want to start from the beginning, and learn this stuff through and through. I do have the photoshop CS5, and adobe lightroom, and Illustrator. Photoshop is so exstensive and intimidating to me. I have messed with very little in it. I have alot of photos I can mess with right now, but my fujipix camera broke.. so until I get a new SLR, im gonna focus on editing in photoshop (from the beginning).. O and photo organization.. what is the best way to name your files and file them correctly?.. Ugh.. I got so many questions here.. I want to learn it all in one day.. Please someone guide me


Some instruction materials are a handy way to start, and they are built right into CS5.

Open CS5. Click on HELP at the top of the workspace, in the drop down box click on - Photoshop Help.
Notice just to the right is shows that F1 is the shortcut for Photoshop Help.
All the drop boxes show keyboard shotcuts on the right side of the box that are available. Not all functions have keyboard shortcuts.


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## table1349 (Oct 24, 2010)

Digital SLR Photography All-in-One For Dummies:Book Information - For Dummies

Photography For Dummies, 2nd Edition:Book Information - For Dummies

Digital SLR Cameras and Photography For Dummies, 3rd Edition:Book Information - For Dummies

Photoshop CS5 For Dummies:Book Information - For Dummies


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## Bram (Oct 24, 2010)

How in the H-E- double hockey sticks did this thread get bumped again, ridiculous this troll is stpid. A beginner wanting a great camera?  I told you before get yourself a D700 and a D3x with some lenses filters and what not and be done with it.


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## table1349 (Oct 24, 2010)

Bram said:


> How in the H-E- double hockey sticks did this thread get bumped again, ridiculous this troll is stpid. A beginner wanting a great camera?  I told you before get yourself a D700 and a D3x with some lenses filters and what not and be done with it.



Dude seriously: BUY A SENSE OF HUMOR


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## TheFantasticG (Oct 24, 2010)

I made my Mom watch this video before she started getting online...






On another note, there was a lot of useful info in this thread that will be relevant as long as the internet is here.


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## lovepink (Dec 6, 2010)

[/quote]
For canon the cheapest fullframe you can get is a 5D (either second hand or reconditioned since this line is now discontinued) [/QUOTE]

Is this for sure?  Did Canon announce it?  I am researching now to choose between 5D and D700.  No questions yet, reading other posts FIRST!  Lots of good info already.

Thanks,
Emily


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