# How much to charge?



## strummin365 (Mar 4, 2014)

This is the e-mail I received:

"Could you give me your half day rate for shooting a variety of outdoor scenes (mostly) in Morro Bay.  The Ad agency I work with would need to own the rights to the photos.It would be this Fri and/or Saturday."

I generally just do outdoor portrait sessions, I'm not usually contracted for this type of work but it sounds like a fun opportunity? Any idea how to help me approach this issue?

Thanks,
Chris


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## Gavjenks (Mar 4, 2014)

There is nowhere near enough info here. Mostly stuff you should already be familiar with from portraits. I would write back and ask for some more details, which will affect rates.
* Does he want them edited, too? If so, how soon will they be needed? Obviously you need to charge more for that, especially if it needs to be done quickly.
* How widely will they be used? Or is that to be left open-ended? National ad campaigns you need to charge more for than a borchure in an office somewhere. Open-ended implies assumed broader usage.
* What sort of thing will they be used for? Photos that need ad copy on the side need to be composed differently in the camera than photos standing by themselves. And do they need mostly landscape? portrait? panorama orientation? etc. And the more restrictions, the harder it is to transport yourself around but still get everything they need.

In general, seems like awfully short notice for having no working relationship with them (do you?) and not being a specialist in landscapes.


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## strummin365 (Mar 4, 2014)

All valid points here!

For some more background information, I specialize in outdoor photography as well as landscapes; I just haven't quite figured out how to market and sell any of my landscape shots yet! The woman I am speaking with is a videographer and knows I only have 5 clients. I just did a shoot with her the other day when I met her for the first time. The shoot went well and I got her some quality images, so she is referring this job to me. Thanks for the questions and please feel free to respond if you can think of anything else that may help!

Also, there's also the notion that it appears I am selling the rights of photos I have taken and will no longer have rights to them. How do I factor this into cost? Part of me wants to charge the agency $150 an hour for the 4 hour shoot, add $100 in for travel fees and then I'm stuck on what else to charge for (if anything). I'd certainly like to charge them for the rights of the photos and more if editing is necessary.

Chris


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## vintagesnaps (Mar 4, 2014)

This doesn't seem like it's being handled in that much of a professional way, they want a photographer for this weekend?? I have to wonder if they had a photographer who cancelled on them or something. She's seen your photos and they apparently are the quality they want but I'm guessing she also wants to find someone who will work really cheap. Try American Society of Media Photographers or other professional photographers organizations to look up pricing guidelines; commercial work seems to usually be priced fairly high.


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## strummin365 (Mar 4, 2014)

The latest response:

"It would be very similar to what is on the Pismo Web site.  They also do print - brochures, poster, magazine ads and article. I shot a few stills they used here on the web site at the same time I shot the video below.
No real due date. I only did a minimum of editing.  If they have a high quality file to work with they may do more editing.  What is your highest quality?  Can you shoot RAW?


They got burned on not owning the rights and ended up having to pay a few times for the same images when they got sold to Getty Images. "

I'm not concerned about the short notice, as I have nothing going on. Should I be? I don't really want to turn down a job, but I will if I have to.

I guess the bottom line is: How much more would I charge if the client wants exclusive rights to the image? Let's say the original cost was $25/image.


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## wyogirl (Mar 4, 2014)

I would not give up my copyright.  What the ad agency actually needs is called a license agreement in which you agree that they can use a photo in a certain manner.  NEVER sell your copyright.


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## tirediron (Mar 4, 2014)

Exclusivity, in perpetuity?  $1000/image sounds like a good starting point.


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## vintagesnaps (Mar 4, 2014)

Not for anything less than an arm and a leg anyway! Usually what would be charged would be pretty high for that; often photographers price it high because they'd prefer to keep their original files and copyright. And if this ad agency got burnt I guess they should have read the terms with Getty more carefully or need to hire a lawyer to review their contracts. 

I don't even find the response all that clear or professional sounding. It seems like they may want to use the photos for a number of different uses and be able to edit your work. You probably need to look up info. on licensing and contracts too. I'm more familiar with editorial than commercial use but usually a contract would be for specified usage and then if they want to extend that there would be additional cost for further use. If nothing else I'd suggest making sure everything is in writing and that you understand what you're signing.


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2014)




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## vipgraphx (Mar 4, 2014)

While I own a printing and graphic design business my rates are $40 an hour for graphics and installation. 

I think you need to come up with a rate per hour with rights, rate per hour without rights. Rates per hour with rights and processing time.  

Fees such as travel should be included in your rates. Also you need to think about all billable hours such as phone conversations and what not and you should right a log down. 

This is one way to go about it. Another way is charging per job full or half day. Which ask your self what you are worth. $150 an hour seems steep to me but and if I was going to pay for that I would expect processing and rights to the photos.


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## Gavjenks (Mar 4, 2014)

The reason why short notice is bad (and a red flag) is not because you might have something going on this weekend. It's because there isn't enough time to work out all of the stuff being discussed here calmly.


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## KmH (Mar 4, 2014)

strummin365 said:


> .  The Ad agency I work with would need to own the rights to the photos


They lost me right there.

They don't need to own all the rights to the photos, they just need to pay you for an appropriate use license that defines the rights they need to rent from you.

They want commercial work done and that is an entirely different business model than shooting portraits.

Basically they are wanting to take major financial advantage of you.

My 1/2 day rate was $1600 and did not include my creative fee nor use licensing.

You might find this article helpful: Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com
And you can visit www.asmp.org and on the left click on *Business Resources*.


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## Steve5D (Mar 4, 2014)

I shot The Temptations once. The guy who hired me wanted the CF card with all of the unedited images. I told him I don't do that. He said "Everyone has a price". I said "You're right, and mine is $5,000.00".

He asked "Will you take a check?"

Sometimes it's pretty surprising what people will pay for. There's money in Morro Bay. Get some of it. Quote them some ridiculously outlandish fee. If they scoff at that, either negotiate or walk.

But they can't say "No" if you don't give them the chance...


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## KmH (Mar 4, 2014)

My fee for the copyright to one photo started at $50,000 - the potential income from a photo for the time I and my heirs would normally own the copyright, the rest of my life + 70 years.

That's one of the ways people like Elvis and others can still make millions of $$$$$$$ after they die.
Top 10 Highest Earning Dead Celebrities of the World | Click Top 10


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## orljustin (Mar 5, 2014)

KmH said:


> My fee for the copyright to one photo started at $50,000 - the potential income from a photo for the time I and my heirs would normally own the copyright, the rest of my life + 70 years.
> 
> That's one of the ways people like Elvis and others can still make millions of $$$$$$$ after they die.
> Top 10 Highest Earning Dead Celebrities of the World | Click Top 10



Make sure you let us know how long it takes that image to earn you $50k.


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## Gavjenks (Mar 5, 2014)

Yeah, when Steve says make an outrageous quote to begin with (which is good advice), $50,000 is probably not the best interpretation of that strategy.


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## ronlane (Mar 5, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> Yeah, when Steve says make an outrageous quote to begin with (which is good advice), $50,000 is probably not the best interpretation of that strategy.



Why not? They asked the OP on short notice and wanted the rights. They can pass or counter or they may just say okay and cut the check. You never know until you quote the price.


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## strummin365 (Mar 5, 2014)

This forum is awesome! The first post in this thread was the first post I've put up here, so thank you guys for being so open.

My last e-mail to her was:

"I only shoot in RAW but generally do most of my own editing into maximum quality JPEG format @ 300DPI. All of the images would likely be 24MP resolution @ 100-200 ISO. They are all high quality digital renders.

Regarding the rights, what the ad agency likely needs is a license agreement in which I agree that they can use a photo or photos for a specific amount of time in various manners. I don't ever generally sell the rights to a photo I've taken. If that is the only solution for the agency, it would greatly impact the quoted price. What is their budget for the project? Also, if they wanted me to do the editing, the price would be higher because of time spent editing (but the results would be better in my opinion, because my point of view really comes alive through my cropping and post processing). If they just want all of the RAW files mailed to them in a DVD with no editing, I could do that as well, which would only cost them the cost of the DVD and mail. 

So in summary, the basic half-day rate is $500 but the rest of the cost depends on licensing and editing. Whatever the case, I'm sure something can be worked out.

Thanks,
Chris"

I tried to draft that with the advice I had at the time in mind. It was almost 24 hours ago and haven't heard anything back, so I may have lost a job, but oh well. They may have been hoping for someone for cheap or to take advantage of; who knows. Maybe I'll still hear something back... I'd like to do this project because it may open some doors, but I just want to earn what I'm worth. 

This is an interesting scenario because I'm not even speaking to the ad agency directly. Also, I found it weird they need the images done this Friday OR Saturday and yet there is no deadline according to the person I am speaking with. 

lol @ Dr. Evil video

Gavjenks: Totally agree with you on that one. I have been disappointed at her replies because I'm not getting back the information I am seeking.

Steve5D: Just out of curiosity, did you just hand him the SD card right there or did you wait until the check cleared first? Pretty cool story and solid advice.


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## TheNevadanStig (Mar 5, 2014)

OK, I am a complete newbie in photography. But NOT in business. And there are a few red flags in these conversations. The major one being it seems you are trying to attempt this deal though a "middle man" of sorts. Which makes me wonder, why? Why does this agency hire a videographer to then hire a photographer to get these shots? My concern would be that they already have a deal with the agency, and are now looking to just get some great images from a lesser known with little to no work, on the cheap, then take full credit for all work done. In which case no matter what your fee is, if you get the job it still wouldn't open any doors to you as no one would ever even know you existed in the whole project.
I would be tempted to contact the agency directly to get an idea of what THEY expect from the project, nd get a feel for whats actually going on. Something about this whole thing is awfully fishy.


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## Gavjenks (Mar 5, 2014)

> Why not? They asked the OP on short notice and wanted the rights. They can pass or counter or they may just say okay and cut the check. You never know until you quote the price.


If you quote truly outrageously too high, then they won't counter, even if they might have otherwise, because they may just assume there's no realistic way that you can come together in negotiations and/or be insulted.

So like, if $700 might be a reasonable rate with restrictions and rights withheld, and $2500 might be something you'd CONSIDER with rights sold, then 5,000-10,000 I think would be a good place to come in just to see if they bite, but still close enough to your actual price that realistic negotiation seems possible.

Whereas if you come in at 50,000, you are 20x higher than the amount you'd actually accept. So if they might be okay with $2500 too, then you could be losing yourself a lot of money, because most people aren't going to expect you to be willing to negotiate down to 5% of your offer. So they just scoff and stop talking to you, and you earn $0 instead of the $2500 or more you might have gotten if you didn't scare them off with an absurdly high figure.



I think you should think of the lowest you would actually accept for rights being sold, multiply that by about 3-5x, and suggest that.


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## yioties (Mar 6, 2014)

If you give a price of 5,000-10,000 as a start kiss the job good buy Strum. This is a project that is last minute and you should be compensated for that. For a half day the $500 is a little too low in my opinion. I you come in with a price of around $2000 you guys will settle around $1500. Never go in too high because 9 out of 10 times you lose the job and any future jobs. Get all the details of the job and come up with a fair price for your time and work and to benefit the Ad Agency.


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## Gavjenks (Mar 6, 2014)

> If you give a price of 5,000-10,000 as a start kiss the job good buy Strum. This is a project that is last minute and you should be compensated for that. For a half day the $500 is a little too low in my opinion. I you come in with a price of around $2000 you guys will settle around $1500. Never go in too high because 9 out of 10 times you lose the job and any future jobs. Get all the details of the job and come up with a fair price for your time and work and to benefit the Ad Agency.


Everything you just wrote is super reasonable... for a normal job where you get the rights to your images and some control over how they are used.

If you quote something like $5000, obviously you should make it very very clear in the writing of the email that the reason for that is the copyrights. You don't just say "How bout $5000 lol kthxbai" 

You say "Well my quote for half a day's labor plus more typical licensing where I keep the copyrights and we work out an outline of allowed usages for a local business/tourism(whatever it is) might be around $1500. But if I'm transferring all ownership to you, then I'm giving up my ability to negotiate future revenue if your ad campaign or your company gets bigger, and I'm letting you sell the images to a stock agency for profit as well if you want, and I'd see none of that. So if you need the copyrights in full, my quote is $5000 to account for those details. I'm happy to pursue either option." or whatnot.


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## Steve5D (Mar 6, 2014)

strummin365 said:


> Steve5D: Just out of curiosity, did you just hand him the SD card right there or did you wait until the check cleared first? Pretty cool story and solid advice.



Well, it was a CF card but, yes, I did hand it to him before leaving the venue. He was a known entity, and I had no concern, whatsoever, as to whether or not the check would clear...


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## Steve5D (Mar 6, 2014)

strummin365 said:


> "I only shoot in RAW but generally do most of my own editing into maximum quality JPEG format @ 300DPI. All of the images would likely be 24MP resolution @ 100-200 ISO. They are all high quality digital renders.



Did they ask for this information? If not, save it. They don't need it. If they have requirements, they'll let you know what they are. There's no need to volunteer information which may well just be dismissed anyway...



> This is an interesting scenario because I'm not even speaking to the ad agency directly.



If you're not talking to the ad agency, how do you know that's who you're shooting for?

My three questions here (wait, let me get out of the shadow of this ENORMOUS *red* flag) are: Who have you been talking to? Why haven't you been talking to the ad agency directly? Who's writing the check?

Short-notice jobs happen all the time, and they can be pretty lucrative. But this one just got a little weird...


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## Jamesaz (Mar 6, 2014)

Hmmmm....... No comps, no art director, rush job, haven't scouted the location..... Seems like a recipe for failure no matter how good a photographer you are.
Good luck whatever happens. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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