# ok to copy packages?



## Kydahl

my husband & I own a wedding dj & photography company.
Recently we added a photobooth & my husband decided to copy & paste the packages from another local photobooth company. Now I didn't know that he did the whole copy/paste verbatim thing or I wouldn't have published it on our website. Needless to say the company who he took the packages from posted that we stole "a bunch of his stuff" on all the local Facebook groups, sent us a handful of nasty messages & claims he plans to press charges even after we immediately removed the posting from our site & kissed butt.
I guess what I'm asking is, while I know it's understandably frowned upon is it really "illegal" to copy another companies package arrangements?

I for one am guilty of taking a few phrases from other photographers when writing out my contract (although still rewording most things) is that still considered copyright infringement?


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## tirediron

The short answer is, "probably maybe".  In general (copyright law varies by nation) anything that someone has written is just as much a creation as their photographs, so taking it word for word as a 'copy & paste' would definitely be a copyright violation in most western countries.


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## Designer

Kydahl said:


> .. is it really "illegal" to copy another companies package arrangements?


Civilly, the owner of the copyrighted material does have a case against you.

(edit) deleted part about a threshold


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## waday

What is he claiming for damages?


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## KmH

There is no $$$$ amount threshold to constitute criminal copyright infringement as opposed to civil copyright infringement;



> http://copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.pdf
> *§506 · Criminal offenses*
> (a) Criminal Infringement.—
> (1) In general.—Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed—
> (A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;
> (B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or
> (C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.​(2) Evidence.—For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement of a copyright.
> (3) Definition.—In this subsection, the term “work being prepared for commercial distribution” means—
> (A) a computer program, a musical work, a motion picture or other audiovisual work, or a sound recording, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution—
> (i) the copyright owner has a reasonable expectation of commercial distribution; and
> (ii) the copies or phonorecords of the work have not been commercially distributed; or​(B) a motion picture, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution, the motion picture—
> (i) has been made available for viewing in a motion picture exhibition facility; and
> (ii) has not been made available in copies for sale to the general public in the United States in a format intended to permit viewing outside a motion picture exhibition facility.​(b) Forfeiture, Destruction, and Restitution.—Forfeiture, destruction, and restitution relating to this section shall be subject to section 2323 of title 18, to the extent provided in that section, in addition to any other similar remedies provided by law.
> (c) Fraudulent Copyright Notice.—Any person who, with fraudulent intent, places on any article a notice of copyright or words of the same purport that such person knows to be false, or who, with fraudulent intent, publicly distributes or imports for public distribution any article bearing such notice or words that such person knows to be false, shall be fined not more than $2,500.
> (d) Fraudulent Removal of Copyright Notice.—Any person who, with fraudulent intent, removes or alters any notice of copyright appearing on a copy of a copyrighted work shall be fined not more than $2,500.
> (e) False Representation.—Any person who knowingly makes a false representation of a material fact in the application for copyright registration provided for by section 409, or in any written statement filed in connection with the application, shall be fined not more than $2,500.
> (f) Rights of Attribution and Integrity.—Nothing in this section applies to infringement of the rights conferred by section 106A(a).​


​


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## robbins.photo

Kydahl said:


> my husband & I own a wedding dj & photography company.
> Recently we added a photobooth & my husband decided to copy & paste the packages from another local photobooth company. Now I didn't know that he did the whole copy/paste verbatim thing or I wouldn't have published it on our website. Needless to say the company who he took the packages from posted that we stole "a bunch of his stuff" on all the local Facebook groups, sent us a handful of nasty messages & claims he plans to press charges even after we immediately removed the posting from our site & kissed butt.
> I guess what I'm asking is, while I know it's understandably frowned upon is it really "illegal" to copy another companies package arrangements?
> 
> I for one am guilty of taking a few phrases from other photographers when writing out my contract (although still rewording most things) is that still considered copyright infringement?



Pressing charges?  Is there a law in your local area that prevents the use of the Ctrl-C button?

This would be at best a civil matter - one in which he would have to sue you and then you would have to respond.  I doubt it would go very far as a civil case, and odds are good once he finds out that he'd have to hire a lawyer and what that would cost in the end it will just end ups as blustering that leads to nothing.

If at some point your contacted by his attorney, then get an attorney of your own.

Caveat, if you are in a country other than the US - couldn't hurt to contact an attorney of your own just to be on the safe side.  Laws in other countries do vary.


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## Kydahl

waday said:


> What is he claiming for damages?


He hasn't gotten into those details yet, supposedly he is "contacting his lawyer" today & will "get back to us."
I only half believe he will go through with it since his responses sounded so unprofessional. (Lots of profanity was used lol)


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## KmH

If this situation is in the US (no location info in the OP's profile) the copyright owner doesn't have to claim any damages.
US copyright allows for 'statutory' damages - up to a maximum of $150,000 per infringement.

If the copyright owner did not document the infringement he has little legal traction to make financial compensation demands.

Help I ve Been Infringed Photo Attorney
The Fuss About Fair Use Photo Attorney
This does not apply to just photographs - http://www.photoattorney.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Excuses-excuses.pdf


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## Designer

Kydahl said:


> I only half believe he will go through with it since his responses sounded so unprofessional. (Lots of profanity was used lol)


It wouldn't be prudent for you to make guesses like that based on his "unprofessionalism".


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## Kydahl

KmH said:


> If this situation is in the US (no location info in the OP's profile) the copyright owner doesn't have to claim any damages.
> US copyright allows for 'statutory' damages - up to a maximum of $150,000 per infringement.
> 
> If the copyright owner did not document the infringement he has little legal traction to make financial compensation demands.
> 
> Help I ve Been Infringed Photo Attorney
> The Fuss About Fair Use Photo Attorney
> This does not apply to just photographs - http://www.photoattorney.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Excuses-excuses.pdf



Thank you so much for all of those very helpful articles!


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## waday

KmH said:


> If this situation is in the US (no location info in the OP's profile) the copyright owner doesn't have to claim any damages.
> US copyright allows for 'statutory' damages - up to a maximum of $150,000 per infringement.
> 
> If the copyright owner did not document the infringement he has little legal traction to make financial compensation demands.
> 
> Help I ve Been Infringed Photo Attorney
> The Fuss About Fair Use Photo Attorney
> This does not apply to just photographs - http://www.photoattorney.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Excuses-excuses.pdf


Sure, he doesn't have to claim damages. But, that doesn't mean he'll win his suit. Frankly, it sounds like the OP has a potential countersuit for slander, if indeed the other photographer was making statements that did not include the full truth. The other photographer saying "a bunch of his stuff" indicates more than just a few words on a website.

But, I'm no lawyer; none of us are. You might want to get a lawyer, @Kydahl... And, you might want to print and have physical copies of ALL correspondence with him, even your replies. And, if you do have further communication with him, you might want to make it through your attorney, or at least be professional and do not be snarky in any way.


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## astroNikon

I hope you have changed it by now.
That would at least show a judge that you didn't mean it, and changed immediately.
Though might not help in any final judgement, if any.


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## robbins.photo

Kydahl said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is he claiming for damages?
> 
> 
> 
> He hasn't gotten into those details yet, supposedly he is "contacting his lawyer" today & will "get back to us."
> I only half believe he will go through with it since his responses sounded so unprofessional. (Lots of profanity was used lol)
Click to expand...


Well I don't see the SWAT team breaking down your door over this anytime soon.  If so just keep a couple of dozen glazed donuts on hand.  Works like a charm.

Odds are good he'll huff and puff and nothing at all will come of this, most small claims courts will require proof of some form of actual damages before they will enter a judgement of any sort so not much chance of him getting anywhere that way.

Anything else will require him to spend some serious coin on a lawyer and odds are good whatever he could get for whatever damages he might be able to claim wouldn't even come close to covering his legal fees.  

So apologize, let him huff and puff - but until the day comes when you get a call from an actual attorney, eh.. I wouldn't stress over it too much.


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## Vtec44

Legally, I guess we would have to find out the answer in court.  Ethically, it's a BIG no no for me.


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## Braineack

butt hurt photographer cant handle competition.

ignore him -- edit text so it's not copied verbatim.


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## tirediron

Braineack said:


> butt hurt photographer cant handle competition.
> 
> ignore him -- edit text so it's not copied verbatim.


 Really?  If someone copied verbatim, part of my website on which I'd put a lot of time and effort, I'd be a litttle annoyed as well.  I don't see it as something worth the expense of going to court over, but if a friendly, "Hey, d'ya mind not being quite so blatant when you steal from me?" didn't do the trick, I would invest in a lawyer to send a letter.


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## Braineack

copyright violation: my husband & I own a wedding dj & photography company.


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## robbins.photo

Vtec44 said:


> Legally, I guess we would have to find out the answer in court.  Ethically, it's a BIG no no for me.



I would tend to agree here - legally the other guy doesn't have much to work with - but it's bad form to copy someone else's stuff like that.   I wouldn't appreciate it if someone did it to me, so I can certainly understand why the guy is upset.


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## Kydahl

Braineack said:


> copyright violation: my husband & I own a wedding dj & photography company.



Owning a dj/photography company is a copyright violation? lol


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## Overread

Whenever anyone's lawyer talks to you you want your lawyer to talk to them - and if you don't have a lawyer you find one. 

Legal talk is not the same as casual talk and a good lawyer can make a person say things that they don't actually mean. Further they might talk you into admitting to something without you realising the full implications of what you have said. 

How far this might go depends on a lot of things; be professional, keep a record of all communications and get proper professional legal advice. A good lawyer is  a big help, they can make sure that your contracts are sound; that your protected in cases like this and more.


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## Braineack

tirediron said:


> Really?  If someone copied verbatim, part of my website on which I'd put a lot of time and effort, I'd be a litttle annoyed as well.  I don't see it as something worth the expense of going to court over, but if a friendly, "Hey, d'ya mind not being quite so blatant when you steal from me?" didn't do the trick, I would invest in a lawyer to send a letter.



i dont disagree with any of this.


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## vintagesnaps

It seems possibly illegal, unethical and unprofessional (and the other person's use of profanity is certainly unprofessional). It may have not been your/your husband's intention but it seems like a mistake was made in taking and using another company's photos or information.

This seems like an infringement of copyright, taking and using someone's else's 'intellectual property' or IP (their photographs or written work).

Those articles are one person/one lawyer's opinion; you might need to consult with a lawyer yourself to decide how to proceed. Get professional advice and information from professional photographers organizations like American Society of Media Photographers or PPA. There are also wedding photographers professional associations.

I would suggest you also develop your own forms and use your own photographs to promote your business instead of taking/using other businesses' information (or intellectual property). ASMP has some sample forms and guidelines.


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## Kydahl

robbins.photo said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Legally, I guess we would have to find out the answer in court.  Ethically, it's a BIG no no for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would tend to agree here - legally the other guy doesn't have much to work with - but it's bad form to copy someone else's stuff like that.   I wouldn't appreciate it if someone did it to me, so I can certainly understand why the guy is upset.
Click to expand...


I completely agree he has a reason to be displeased & I don't deny being in the wrong.
Considering that my husband immediately took it down, & offered many sincere apologies I feel like the situation could have been addressed better then it was.


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## robbins.photo

Kydahl said:


> I completely agree he has a reason to be displeased & I don't deny being in the wrong.
> Considering that my husband immediately took it down, & offered many sincere apologies I feel like the situation could have been addressed better then it was.



Yup.. no worries.  Might be nice if people could conduct themselves like adults every once in a while.  Of course, it might spell doom for the Internet.. lol


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## Vtec44

Kydahl said:


> I completely agree he has a reason to be displeased & I don't deny being in the wrong.
> Considering that my husband immediately took it down, & offered many sincere apologies I feel like the situation could have been addressed better then it was.



IMHO, it shouldn't have been copied to begin with.


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## Kydahl

Vtec44 said:


> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree he has a reason to be displeased & I don't deny being in the wrong.
> Considering that my husband immediately took it down, & offered many sincere apologies I feel like the situation could have been addressed better then it was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, it shouldn't have been copied to begin with.
Click to expand...


I definitely agree.
Like I said, if I would have known my husband just copied & pasted it, it never would have been published.


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## Kydahl

Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?


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## waday

Kydahl said:


> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?


Sorry, but I'm going to rebut with a question. The item in question is the language regarding photobooth packages and pricing, right? If you only copied their packages and pricing language, why not just create your own language and pricing based on YOUR photobooth and experience?


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## astroNikon

Kydahl said:


> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?


In your case I would just throw out the existing text ASAP and start over from scratch.

Anything less and it could seem that you could be considered uncooperative in changing your text.


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## Kydahl

waday said:


> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I'm going to rebut with a question. The item in question is the language regarding photobooth packages and pricing, right? If you only copied their packages and pricing language, why not just create your own language and pricing based on YOUR photobooth and experience?
Click to expand...


Again, I agree & it wasn't my decision to copy&paste someone else's photo package, I had no clue my husband took the info from someone else.


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## robbins.photo

Vtec44 said:


> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree he has a reason to be displeased & I don't deny being in the wrong.
> Considering that my husband immediately took it down, & offered many sincere apologies I feel like the situation could have been addressed better then it was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, it shouldn't have been copied to begin with.
Click to expand...


Yup.. one minute your copying and pasting off somebody's website, next thing you know your downloading illegal copies of movies, pretty soon it's 3 am and your running around without a shirt on being featured on an episode of COPS where your explaining to the officer that you were just holding that 5 lbs of crack for a friend.

Happens all the time from what I understand.


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## waday

Kydahl said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I'm going to rebut with a question. The item in question is the language regarding photobooth packages and pricing, right? If you only copied their packages and pricing language, why not just create your own language and pricing based on YOUR photobooth and experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I agree & it wasn't my decision to copy&paste someone else's photo package, I had no clue my husband took the info from someone else.
Click to expand...

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that your question of how much do you transform before it's considered safe is irrelevant. You should be creating your own. You have your own business, your own style. Have confidence in you. Don't copy. Own it!


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## Designer

Kydahl said:


> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"


In your case, I recommend that you *DO NOT *try to copy any portion of any legal document.  Just go to a lawyer and get it done.  Pay the man. 

Doing self-help legal work is not going to save you any grief and may make things worse.


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## Designer

Kydahl said:


> Again, I agree & it wasn't my decision to copy&paste someone else's photo package, I had no clue my husband took the info from someone else.


You're in it together.  That means both the good and the bad.


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## vintagesnaps

I wouldn't be copying and pasting. If you see something on someone's website you like, you could probably consider it 'inspiration' and maybe do something similar but not take info. directly from their website.

My photographs are my time, my effort, and my ability going into my work. Same for your business, no one else should be taking your photos or information and using it. You'd be better off to create your own.

I agree, if you were willing to take down the information I would think that would have resolved it, but it obviously didn't. If I saw unauthorized use of any of my work I would probably pursue the copyright violation, but for me, a takedown would be what I'd expect and that should be the end of it. There could be people that might be more inclined to try to sue (or cuss you out... or badmouth you online, etc.).

I think it helps to get informed to help you manage your business to prevent problems like this as much as possible. You might look up the Small Business Administration (can't think of the site but it's a .gov, sba.gov maybe?). I don't know if it covers copyright but might give you some guidelines and resources.


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## KmH

Kydahl said:


> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"


There is no set amount, and "safe" is decided by the court once you and the copyright owner get to that point.

Learn about the Fair Use Doctrine, but always remember that Fair Use is not cut & dried.


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## vfotog

Kydahl said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I'm going to rebut with a question. The item in question is the language regarding photobooth packages and pricing, right? If you only copied their packages and pricing language, why not just create your own language and pricing based on YOUR photobooth and experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I agree & it wasn't my decision to copy&paste someone else's photo package, I had no clue my husband took the info from someone else.
Click to expand...


 You and your husband both have an interest in the business. so you both have a legal burden for this. You guys obviously need to work on your communication. It doesn't matter at all what you _would _have done; what matters is what was done. And taking it down after the fact doesn't absolve you from putting it up in the first place. If you break a law and when you caught, say "oops, sorry" that sure doesn't mean you won't get arrested. It's the same with copyright infringement. You did it, you got caught, and all you have done is remove the infringement. You have absolutely no right to cop an attitude. Did you try talking to the infringement victim and apologize to them? They may not sue, but they have the right to, and they are in the right here. You should be sorry not because you got caught but because you are in the wrong. You really should try and make nice with them; if it gets legal it won't help your business' reputation.


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## vfotog

KmH said:


> Kydahl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> 
> 
> 
> There is no set amount, and "safe" is decided by the court once you and the copyright owner get to that point.
> 
> Learn about the Fair Use Doctrine, but always remember that Fair Use is not cut & dried.
Click to expand...


there's NOTHING Fair Use about her swiping a competitor's text and pricing for her own commercial business. no need to muddy the waters.


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## sm4him

Kydahl said:


> Now my question is, how much do you transform a copy/paste paragraph before it's considered "safe?"
> when writing my contract for example, I would search many different photographers contracts to get an idea of exactly what should be covered. While copying & pasting was still done, a lot of the vocabulary was changed, mixing in my own wording. Does it have to be verbatim to be considered infringement?



I was going to stay out of this...but this question really seems to suggest to me that this experience has not actually taught you anything.  You say you "had no idea" that your husband had copied & pasted someone else's info on your website--and yet, here you are, asking, basically, "so, how much do we have to alter our plagiarism before nobody can sue us?"

There is nothing wrong with RESEARCHING other photographer's websites, collecting information about what they charge, how they market themselves. But that information should be just that, research; it shouldn't end up on your website, in any form.  What goes on your website should be YOUR content.


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