# Full time professional photographer



## Vtec44

What's your definition of a full time professional photographer?


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## photoguy99

Someone who is a photographer and only a photographer from the instant of the big bang through the heat death of the universe.

Otherwise it's only part of time.


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## gsgary

I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it


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## W.Y.Photo

I'd say if either your entire income is made through photography or if you work with photography 40+ hours a week to make money you would be considered a "full time" proffesional.


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## Gary A.

The accounting term for professional, as gsgary stated, is 51% of your income comes from a specific profession. Full time, I believe, in the United States, is federally recognized at 30 hours per week. But standards may change by state and will change by country.


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## pixmedic

Vtec44 said:


> What's your definition of a full time professional photographer?


Really?
Did we have to go there?
Like we haven't had to clean up enough threads lately......

Sheesh.


Time is an illusion.
Lunch time doubly so.


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## Vtec44

pixmedic said:


> Vtec44 said:
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> What's your definition of a full time professional photographer?
> 
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> Really?
> Did we have to go there?
> Like we haven't had to clean up enough threads lately......
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> 
> Time is an illusion.
> Lunch time doubly so.
Click to expand...


I'm totally lost...


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## pixmedic

Vtec44 said:


> pixmedic said:
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> Vtec44 said:
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> What's your definition of a full time professional photographer?
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> 
> 
> Really?
> Did we have to go there?
> Like we haven't had to clean up enough threads lately......
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> 
> Time is an illusion.
> Lunch time doubly so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm totally lost...
Click to expand...

It was kinda a joke.
Those kinds of questions usually wind up in an argument of some sort.


The time reference was a Douglas Adams quote


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## sm4him

I don't bother to define it, I just know I ain't one.


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## Vtec44

LOL  It's a legitimate question though, different than "what is a professional photographer?". 

A lot of us started out as part time, but when do you realize that you're now full time?  Is it because of the amount of time that we spent, the money that we earned, our only profession, or all of that?


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## sm4him

But…I do wonder…51% of your income?
So, if I spend at least 40 hours a week, or whatever that standard is, doing photography or photography-related activities (marketing, processing, bookkeeping), and I make…oh, say, $500 in a year (no, I didn't leave out any zeros) either from client shoots or selling prints, etc. BUT that is ALL I earn from ANYthing because hubby/daddy/mommy/significant other pays my bills…am I then a "full time professional photographer?"

And yeah, sorry Pix…this is exactly the kind of thing that feeds the hungry wolves…but I couldn't help it.


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## runnah

Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.


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## sm4him

runnah said:


> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.



I think I must be coming down with something--I just agreed with runnah.


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## Vtec44

sm4him said:


> But…I do wonder…51% of your income?
> So, if I spend at least 40 hours a week, or whatever that standard is, doing photography or photography-related activities (marketing, processing, bookkeeping), and I make…oh, say, $500 in a year (no, I didn't leave out any zeros) either from client shoots or selling prints, etc. BUT that is ALL I earn from ANYthing because hubby/daddy/mommy/significant other pays my bills…am I then a "full time professional photographer?"



What if I'm the bread winner, but my wife also works and pays for part of the bills?


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## runnah

sm4him said:


> runnah said:
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> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.
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> I think I must be coming down with something--I just agreed with runnah.
Click to expand...


You've got a bad case of rationalism and logic.


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## tirediron

runnah said:


> sm4him said:
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> runnah said:
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> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.
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> I think I must be coming down with something--I just agreed with runnah.
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> Click to expand...
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> You've got a bad case of rationalism and logic.
Click to expand...

 But nothing that penecillin won't cure!


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## Vtec44

runnah said:


> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.



What are the skills and behavioral requirements that you think that would qualify someone to be a full time professional photographer?


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## runnah

Vtec44 said:


> runnah said:
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> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.
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> What are the skills and behavioral requirements that you think that would qualify someone to be a full time professional photographer?
Click to expand...


The same things you'd expect from a professional contractor/lawyer/doctor. They know their ****, do the job very well and act properly.

I've seen people that make a good living and frankly do bad work and other who do it for fun who are light years ahead. But again if you are a very skilled photography but screw over clients, don't show up and other things, you are not professional either.


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## W.Y.Photo

What about a photographer who makes a living selling Art Photography? That's all they do.

Are they a proffesional or just an artist?


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## runnah

W.Y.Photo said:


> What about a photographer who makes a living selling Art Photography? That's all they do.
> 
> Are they a proffesional or just an artist?



You mean like and artist vs. someone doing baby pics?

Well that's the difference between a working professional and an artist. Same as the difference between a studio guitarist and someone like Jimi Hendrix.


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## Vtec44

runnah said:


> The same things you'd expect from a professional contractor/lawyer/doctor. They know their ****, do the job very well and act properly.



"Do their job very well", who's the judge of a job well done?  The clients or other photographers?


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## gsgary

The answer is in your question,  full time


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## W.Y.Photo

runnah said:


> W.Y.Photo said:
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> What about a photographer who makes a living selling Art Photography? That's all they do.
> 
> Are they a proffesional or just an artist?
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> You mean like and artist vs. someone doing baby pics?
> 
> Well that's the difference between a working professional and an artist. Same as the difference between a studio guitarist and someone like Jimi Hendrix.
Click to expand...


All right, I get what you're saying. There is definitely a difference.. but if you could ask Jimi Hendrix what his profession is I doubt he'd say anything other than musician..

My problem is I can't see myself calling him a "Professional Musician" even though its obvious that his profession was musician.


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## runnah

W.Y.Photo said:


> runnah said:
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> W.Y.Photo said:
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> What about a photographer who makes a living selling Art Photography? That's all they do.
> 
> Are they a proffesional or just an artist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like and artist vs. someone doing baby pics?
> 
> Well that's the difference between a working professional and an artist. Same as the difference between a studio guitarist and someone like Jimi Hendrix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All right, I get what you're saying. There is definitely a difference.. but if you could ask Jimi Hendrix what his profession is I doubt he'd say anything other than musician..
> 
> My problem is I can't see myself calling him a "Professional Musician" even though its obvious that his profession was musician.
Click to expand...



Jimi Hendrix was a professional musical artist. Bob Smith who does commercial jingles and studio music is a professional musician.


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## runnah

Vtec44 said:


> runnah said:
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> The same things you'd expect from a professional contractor/lawyer/doctor. They know their ****, do the job very well and act properly.
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> "Do their job very well", who's the judge of a job well done?  The clients or other photographers?
Click to expand...


To the satisfaction of the paying client and the photographer's professional peers.


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## Forkie

runnah said:


> Some folks say it's income related but I say it's skill and behavior based.



Absolutely this. 

Technically, by the income definition, I am a full time professional photographer because I am employed as a photographer for a company and I earn 100% of my income by it.

However, I don't_ feel_ like a professional photographer because the photography job I do from 9:00am-6:00pm everyday is very much bread and butter type work, creatively unstimulating and repetitive and I'm bored of it.  In my spare time though, I do portraits and actor headshots which, for the last year I have been doing for free to build my portfolio.  2 weeks ago I had my first unsolicited paying customer and have my second and third lined up.  

Now I feel more like a professional photographer because I am finding creatively stimulating work off my own back and talking like a photographer with my clients.  

Technically, yes, it's all about income.  But It's also about attitude, confidence, knowledge and _how others see you _as well.


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## Vtec44

I went full time pro in late 2013.  I call myself full time professional because I spend at least 30 hours a week working and I earn a full time salary with my photography.   I couldn't careless where my skills level was at the time and I wasn't shooting for anyone but myself and my clients.  I still stand by that, shooting for myself and my clients.  I'm just curious to see if anyone else went through a similar phase, switching from just a hobby to a full time profession, and how did they come to that decision.


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## JacaRanda

sm4him said:


> I don't bother to define it, I just know I ain't one.


 
I wanted to click agree, but a 'me too' button would be more appropriate.


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## JacaRanda

The answer is determined by what sensor is in your camera.


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## Vtec44

JacaRanda said:


> The answer is determined by what sensor is in your camera.



I thought it's how many f1.4 lenses you have.


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## Gary A.

There is a difference between have professional skills and being a professional.


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## Vtec44

Gary A. said:


> There is a difference between have professional skills and being a professional.



I guess paying clients will decide on both.


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## KmH

Full time - 40 hours a week, or 8 hours a day - 5 days a week.

I agree that the title professional photographer denotes having advanced photography skills and knowledge and a person that displays professional conduct and demeanor.


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## pixmedic

KmH said:


> Full time - 40 hours a week, or 8 hours a day - 5 days a week.
> 
> I agree that the title professional photographer denotes having advanced photography skills and knowledge and a person that displays professional conduct and demeanor.


30 hours now. To get benefits.


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## KmH

Self employed people (most professional photographers) only 'get benefits' if they buy them.


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## gsgary

I thought everyone that buys a camera in the US automatically qualified as a professional


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## pixmedic

gsgary said:


> I thought everyone that buys a camera in the US automatically qualified as a professional


You have to have a FB page


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## gsgary

pixmedic said:


> gsgary said:
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> I thought everyone that buys a camera in the US automatically qualified as a professional
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> You have to have a FB page
Click to expand...

No never


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## Mr. Innuendo

In addition to the fun stuff that I like to shoot for myself, I shoot for a magazine, I shoot for two concert venues, I shoot for a real estate management company, and I shoot for a college yearbook company. In addition to those, I also shoot things not under the auspices of an umbrella agency (family events, portraits, etc).

By every definition, I'm a professional photographer.

I still think I should've been an astronaut.


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## imagemaker46

It doesn't matter anymore.


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## imagemaker46

Mr. Innuendo said:


> In addition to the fun stuff that I like to shoot for myself, I shoot for a magazine, I shoot for two concert venues, I shoot for a real estate management company, and I shoot for a college yearbook company. In addition to those, I also shoot things not under the auspices of an umbrella agency (family events, portraits, etc).
> 
> By every definition, I'm a professional photographer.
> 
> I still think I should've been an astronaut.


Maybe you should have been an astronaut, you do take up space.


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## Vtec44

Dang. I only shoot wedding and engagements and nothing else (at least professionally).  I do creative collaboration that don't pay to keep me from going insane.


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## dennybeall

Determined by Hat Size.


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## imagemaker46

As usual your sense of humour is lacking.  I added a smily face as directed by the admins so there is no mistake when it comes to sarcasm.


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## Mr. Innuendo

imagemaker46 said:


> As usual your sense of humour is lacking.  I added a smily face as directed by the admins so there is no mistake when it comes to sarcasm.



This is a smiley face: 

This is not:


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## imagemaker46

Really, that's your problem?  Oh sorry, my deepest apologies to you and your family for using the wrong face while typing a a single line humour related remark.


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## imagemaker46

A professional is suppose to treat their clients with respect, do the job to expectations or better.  Produce above average images consistently, deliver the final work on time or sooner.  Be flexible during shoots, if something happens that requires a shooting change, don't whine about it.  Once you accept a contract from a client, they have the rights to ask you to make changes, within reason, and if you are experienced and skilled enough, what they ask for should not be an issue.

I tell all my clients that I am the easy part of the event, just give me a shot list of what they require, and let me go work.  There are other things going on that will require more attention, worrying about the photographer they hire should never be a concern.


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## runnah

imagemaker46 said:


> A professional is suppose to treat their clients with respect, do the job to expectations or better.  Produce above average images consistently, deliver the final work on time or sooner.  Be flexible during shoots, if something happens that requires a shooting change, don't whine about it.  Once you accept a contract from a client, they have the rights to ask you to make changes, within reason, and if you are experienced and skilled enough, what they ask for should not be an issue.
> 
> I tell all my clients that I am the easy part of the event, just give me a shot list of what they require, and let me go work.  There are other things going on that will require more attention, worrying about the photographer they hire should never be a concern.



Agreed, attitude and adaptability is the most important part.


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## Austin Greene

Vtec44 said:


> What's your definition of a full time professional photographer?



I currently work 8 hours a day in a studio, Monday through Friday, every week. In the past 4 months or so, I've photographed and edited over 1200 products, amongst other things I do for the company I work for. This is my primary source of income.

With all that in mind, I consider myself a _full-time_ professional photographer.

My contract here ends in just short of 2 years, at which point I plan to step out of the product photography indefinitely. I'll still shoot portraits and landscapes, will focus on growing my wedding client base, and I'll still consider myself a _professional photographer._ However, unless my primary source of income is photography, I won't consider it _full-time. _


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## Kwenami

gsgary said:


> I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it



Actually, not true. In engineering and other licensed professions, it's illegal to call yourself a 'professional engineer' etc unless you are fully licensed, as to not demote the industry since it's self regulated. 

But I would agree this isn't a bad way to base 'professional' for in general, as only 30% of your income should be living expense. *ha* So in essence, you need to be making a living doing it.


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## Gary A.

Kwenami said:


> gsgary said:
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> 
> 
> I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, not true. In engineering and other licensed professions, it's illegal to call yourself a 'professional engineer' etc unless you are fully licensed, as to not demote the industry since it's self regulated.
> 
> But I would agree this isn't a bad way to base 'professional' for in general, as only 30% of your income should be living expense. *ha* So in essence, you need to be making a living doing it.
Click to expand...

In  California there are two classes of engineer, Engineer and Professional Engineer. A professional engineer is certified by the State of California as"Professional". A Professional Engineer is responsible to make construction/design/engineering decisions which have no regard to time and expense but rather the sounded of the construction.


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## Kwenami

Gary A. said:


> Kwenami said:
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> gsgary said:
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> I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, not true. In engineering and other licensed professions, it's illegal to call yourself a 'professional engineer' etc unless you are fully licensed, as to not demote the industry since it's self regulated.
> 
> But I would agree this isn't a bad way to base 'professional' for in general, as only 30% of your income should be living expense. *ha* So in essence, you need to be making a living doing it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In  California there are two classes of engineer, Engineer and Professional Engineer. A professional engineer is certified by the State of California as"Professional". A Professional Engineer is responsible to make construction/design/engineering decisions which have no regard to time and expense but rather the sounded of the construction.
Click to expand...


I live in Canada and am hoping to be an EIT (engineer in training-ie not licensed, but the experience counts towards my license) soon-there are not multiple classes of engineers here. 'professional' is a pretty vague term  But it *is* illegal to say you are a professional engineer in Canada without the license. The more you know


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## Gary A.

Kwenami said:


> Gary A. said:
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> Kwenami said:
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> gsgary said:
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> I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, not true. In engineering and other licensed professions, it's illegal to call yourself a 'professional engineer' etc unless you are fully licensed, as to not demote the industry since it's self regulated.
> 
> But I would agree this isn't a bad way to base 'professional' for in general, as only 30% of your income should be living expense. *ha* So in essence, you need to be making a living doing it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In  California there are two classes of engineer, Engineer and Professional Engineer. A professional engineer is certified by the State of California as"Professional". A Professional Engineer is responsible to make construction/design/engineering decisions which have no regard to time and expense but rather the sounded of the construction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I live in Canada and am hoping to be an EIT (engineer in training-ie not licensed, but the experience counts towards my license) soon-there are not multiple classes of engineers here. 'professional' is a pretty vague term  But it *is* illegal to say you are a professional engineer in Canada without the license. The more you know
Click to expand...

Professional Engineers in California have a special pro stamp and they stamp plans. You can't build stuff here without that stamp. (That stamp also has significant liability.)


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## rexbobcat

I would consider full time photographers people who make a living wage from photography. It's what they focus on.

Personally, I'm not sure I could be a full time photographer. 

I'm not sure I could put up with all the BS while acting like everything is amazing.


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## imagemaker46

Gary A. said:


> Kwenami said:
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> Gary A. said:
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> Kwenami said:
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> gsgary said:
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> I have read that to be classed professional at anything you need to earn 50% of your income from it
> 
> 
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> 
> Actually, not true. In engineering and other licensed professions, it's illegal to call yourself a 'professional engineer' etc unless you are fully licensed, as to not demote the industry since it's self regulated.
> 
> But I would agree this isn't a bad way to base 'professional' for in general, as only 30% of your income should be living expense. *ha* So in essence, you need to be making a living doing it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In  California there are two classes of engineer, Engineer and Professional Engineer. A professional engineer is certified by the State of California as"Professional". A Professional Engineer is responsible to make construction/design/engineering decisions which have no regard to time and expense but rather the sounded of the construction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I live in Canada and am hoping to be an EIT (engineer in training-ie not licensed, but the experience counts towards my license) soon-there are not multiple classes of engineers here. 'professional' is a pretty vague term  But it *is* illegal to say you are a professional engineer in Canada without the license. The more you know
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Professional Engineers in California have a special pro stamp and they stamp plans. You can't build stuff here without that stamp. (That stamp also has significant liability.)
Click to expand...


The stamp is also required in Canada.


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## imagemaker46

rexbobcat said:


> I would consider full time photographers people who make a living wage from photography. It's what they focus on.
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure I could be a full time photographer.
> 
> I'm not sure I could put up with all the BS while acting like everything is amazing.


A lot of photographers will tell you how much work they have, how they don't have a minute to spare.  The reality of the situation is usually quite opposite.  I could say I'm going all day, reality is, I am, but it's not shooting, it's been scanning old negs for the past two weeks.  I haven't touched a camera in three weeks.  So that's three weeks of no "new" money coming in.  I make money off my photo archive. Next week I head out for a two week shoot.  I don't lie to other photographers or potential clients about how busy I am.  I tell people I need the work, if I say I'm busy all the time, they may figure too busy and go someplace else.


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## Mr. Innuendo

Yeah, I certainly feel like I'm busy as Hell, but it's easy to find spare time in every day I have shoots lined up, everyday (except next Sunday) for the next two weeks. Even as busy as that will keep me, if someone were to contact me regarding a shoot on, say, next afternoon, I could certainly work it into my schedule.


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## Gary A.

rexbobcat said:


> I would consider full time photographers people who make a living wage from photography. It's what they focus on.
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure I could be a full time photographer.
> 
> I'm not sure I could put up with all the BS while acting like everything is amazing.


 It was great ... in between all the BS and waiting. Didn't make a ton of money, but I wasn't in it for the money. It was the best job for a kid ... but then things started getting repetitive and I decided it was time to wake up and get a real job and a real family, like everybody else.


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## tirediron

Mr. Innuendo said:


> imagemaker46 said:
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> As usual your sense of humour is lacking.  I added a smily face as directed by the admins so there is no mistake when it comes to sarcasm.
> 
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> This is a smiley face:
> 
> This is not:
Click to expand...


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## rexbobcat

Gary A. said:


> rexbobcat said:
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> 
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> I would consider full time photographers people who make a living wage from photography. It's what they focus on.
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure I could be a full time photographer.
> 
> I'm not sure I could put up with all the BS while acting like everything is amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> I was. It was great ... in between all the BS and waiting. Didn't make a ton of money, but I wasn't in it for the money. It was the best job for a kid ... but then things started getting repetitive and I decided it was time to wake up and get a real job and a real family, like everybody else.
Click to expand...


I've tried it but I just don't think I've found my place in it. I rarely ever had a client who I took photos of, they paid me, thanked me, and that was that.

It usually ended in an attempted negotiation of price (even after it was decided and contracted), "Can I have all the raw files," or just general lack of cordial communication.

This is in the portrait realm, though, mind you. Maybe I've just been unlucky.


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## imagemaker46

Dealing with some clients will always be a challenge, some people have it in them to negotiate everything they do in life.  I leave room to negotiate everything, these days setting rock solid take it or leave it fees and contracts is the sure road to unemployment.  I'm not saying give it away, and as long as a potential client feels like they are getting a deal you'll usually end up with the work.  A couple months ago I posted trying to work out a deal with FOX sports over pictures, they did finally agree to what I wanted and more, but they stretched out the paperwork to the point I came close to telling them to forget the payment.  For two weeks straight I got emails from different people asking for more information, fill this form out, send us this, we need your bank info for a wire payment, the bank info doesn't match the invoice that doesn't match the legal papers.  

Just when I thought I finally got everything done, along comes another form, that didn't even apply to me, but I had to sign it saying that the form doesn't apply to me.  In the mean time, I wait for payment.

The BS side of photography is there for everyone, we all deal with it.  The only time I turn down work is if I absolutely can't change the time, or am double booked, which happened a few years ago, it seemed that every job I was being offered had a conflict with another.  Nothing more frustrating.  But you just deal with it.


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## Mr. Innuendo

rexbobcat said:


> I rarely ever had a client who I took photos of, they paid me, thanked me, and that was that.



I can't think of an instance where it _hasn't_ ended like that.


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## CygnusStudios

Wow, I love these debates as most like to feel that profession equals skill or vice versa, but sadly it doesn't.

I have seen thousands of amateurs who take amazing images, and I've seen plenty of pros who don't. In the business of photography, it isn't always about amazing images.

You can be the best there ever was, but if you cannot deliver what the client wants, when they want and how they want, you won't be in business very long....

Just because someone can make their living with a camera doesn't automatically make them a great photographer (I am the perfect example of that). Business skills outweigh photography skills every day.

When you make your living with a camera, there are far more hours spent doing business than there are taking pictures.

Here is why I love this debate. The answer to the question is quite easy when you swap out some terms, then it becomes clear.

I own a really nice camera, does that make me a professional photographer?
I own a really nice hammer, does that make me a professional carpenter?

I can take pretty pictures, does that make me a professional photographer?
I can install a toilet, does that make me a professional plumber?

The guy down the street paid me to take his picture, does that make me a professional photographer?
The guy down the street paid me to tune up his car, does that make me a professional mechanic?

I spend my week working as a photographer, but on the weekends I race my car, does that make me a professional race car driver?
I spend my week working (insert what you like here), but on weekends I take pictures, does that make a professional photographer?

In the end, the IRS and various government entities will classify what you do for a living versus what you do as a hobby.... The debate however will last forever on the internet....


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