# What are the good brands to get for Monolights?



## krbimaging

I plan on doing allot of location shooting this summer so I am going to invest in some good quality Monolights. I hate having wires everywhere. I am moving from my present set up of Flashes and umbrellas. 

What are some of the good quality Monolight brands that I should consider? Also what ones should I avoid? These arn't cheap and I only want to spend my money once.

Thanks.


----------



## tirediron

How much money do you want to spend?  $2500 a head will get you into Profoto; $100 a head will get you into Flashpoint.  Paul C. Buff's gear (Alien Bees, White Lightening) is generally fairly well regarded.  I'm personally a fan of Elinchrom as a nice compromise between good quality and high price.  Stay away from Cowboy Studio and ANYTHING on eBay that ships directly from China, or offers a whole kit with several lights, stands, etc for only a couple of hundred dollars.  I would expect to spend about $500-700/each for good quality.


----------



## Gavjenks

I can attest that the alienbees at only about $250 each are excellent quality. I have more than one, and no problems ever with any of them. Well except a modeling light exploding, but that was me being a moron and leaving it on in an enclosure for like 12 hours >.> and only costs $10.

That's just the monolight though for $250, still significantly more expensive than cowboystudio, which I haven't tried but I'm 100% happy to agree is probably complete crap.


----------



## krbimaging

Well, I have no intent on spending $2500 for a single head. I can't justify that at my present skill. However $1100 per head is justifyable. Profoto D1 Air 500 for instance. I'm not really looking at what to buy as much as I want peoples experence with particular brands. I know what I want my gear to do and it seems several brands fit my bill I'm not familiar enough with any of the brands out there. I want good customer support (if ever needed) and reliablity. Rather than saying "What about brand X?" I want to see what folks want to brag about or cuss about.

 If I bought Cheep china junk I get what I pay for. It's not my goal to have toss in the trash gear.


----------



## Gavjenks

Basically any of the above (except cowboystudio) are going to flash some light at stuff, and not break. And they all have good customer service.  Honestly, I don't really know what else you'd be looking for in brand-related information. Good brands do what they say on the package. At least for monolights, which are pretty straightforward things. I think people have emotional opinions about things like cameras or cars because they're more intimate and complicated and offer more subtle performance differences. Monolights are more like, I dunno, an undershirt or a toothbrush. Might work or not, but I don't feel the inclination to rant and rave or cuss about it either way.

So if I were you, I would just decide what you need for your photos in terms of watt seconds and/or flash duration and/or triggering compatibility, power draw, blah blah whatever. For now and also leaving some room a ways into the future if your business grows. Then buy the cheapest light available that is advertised as covering those needs from any of the above brands.


----------



## Derrel

Good customer support is the thing Paul C. Buff customers love to talk about. Buff's low-priced lights are popular because they are low-priced and Buff markets the chit out of them, but they do break down and malfunction a LOT, so the web is FILLED with stories and anecdotes about "great customer service" on broken and malfunctioning Alien Bee lights and other items. It's funny...you DON'T hear those stories about DynaLite, Profoto, or Speedotron gear because those three brands are built for professional use and abuse, and have proven themselves for over 30 years in rental houses across the USA. But yeah, if you want quick turnaround for broken or malfunctioning lights, Buff offers that.


----------



## Gavjenks

Eh, I mean yeah alienbees are made of plastic buckets and you can feel a bit of bend in the lever when you lock them down, and stuff like that. But I throw mine around in bags and cars quite a bit more than I should and subject them to heavy temperature change and leave them on for hours and hours and they hold out just fine.

I don't doubt that they break down MORE OFTEN than tank-like profoto beasts. But we're probably talking more like 0.2% vs. 1% here, not 0.2% vs. 15%.
I liken it to basically the same sort of difference between something like a 70-300 high end consumer tele zoom lens vs. a 70-200 2.8 IS pro lens in terms of build quality. They are both perfectly fine 99+% of the time and if you're not an insane photographer.

Yes, the 70-200 is built probably 10x as tough, but you almost never *need *1/10th of that toughness... And if you don't, then it's just wasted on you but still costs $$. Maybe if you're mountainclimbing with it in a monsoon, then yes. And if you want to go mountainclimbing with your monolight (lol), then by all means, avoid alienbees. Or if you expect to be a clumsy oaf and drop your light stands multiple times. Otherwise it's just "well built" vs. "way overbuilt" and you are unlikely to ever experience the consequences of the difference.


----------



## table1349

krbimaging said:


> I plan on doing allot of location shooting this summer so I am going to invest in some good quality Monolights. I hate having wires everywhere. I am moving from my present set up of Flashes and umbrellas.
> 
> What are some of the good quality Monolight brands that I should consider? Also what ones should I avoid? These arn't cheap and I only want to spend my money once.
> 
> Thanks.


One thing you need to factor into your consideration is what you are generally going to use them for.  Since I shoot a lot of sports when I need additional light in venues where I can install mine.  My needs are probably different than yours.  You might want to check out the Elinchrom line.  Here is one of their newer, very full feature models.  Elinchrom Zoom Pro HD Head EL20192


----------



## Derrel

Sorry, but I disagree with your characterizations of the robustness and the reliability and the breakdown "estimates" of Alien Bees lights. But by your kind estimate, AB's would *break down five times more often that a robust brand.* Wow...how reassuring! 
I have one set of Speedotron lighting gear that I bought new in 1986 and it has never needed ANY service. As in "None." I have old Speedotron Brown Line lights that are 35 years old, as well as some Black Line stuff made during the Gerald Ford era, as well as some former rental lights that have been BEAT TO CHIT and are dented to a degree that is hard to fathom..and they still work fine. I have a few 28 year-old Speedotron flashtubes that STILL work!

Alien Bees and Speedotron, or DynaLite, or Profoto lighting gear have in fact ZERO connection to the 70-200 and 70-300 analogy. None.

One brand is economy stuff, made in China and sold cheaply. The other three brands are legendary for their utter LACK of need for "customer service to get them functioning." 

Speedotron, Profoto, and DynaLite make the best products with the most accessories for three separate niches where high-performance studio flash units are needed. 

The Paul C. Buff Alien Bee line is low-cost, entry-level gear, built to sell at low-cost, yet priced at over 2x the price of say *also-Chinese-made Flashpoint* lights. Alien Bees output is lower than Flashpoint, so if a guy wants to go low-cost, Flashpoint makes sense; $99 for a light that puts out MORE LIGHT than a $249 AB light.


----------



## Gavjenks

> But by your kind estimate, AB's would *break down five times more often that a robust brand.*


Perhaps.
But I'm also approximately 5x more likely to die by shark attack in North America than by cougar mauling.
I don't really feel it would be appropriate to spend $1000 extra on my clothing due to it being demonstrably better at anti-shark defense, however. Do you?

Money spent on preventative protection should be based on ABSOLUTE expected losses of the different options, not RELATIVE percentages. A very low chance versus an absurdly low chance is not really important either way when absolute expected losses are trivially small for both.



> yet priced at over 2x the price of say *also-Chinese-made Flashpoint lights.*


Also you seem to be implying that alienbees flash heads are made in China. They are not. Alienbees strobes are manufactured in the United States. And are *very *noticeably higher build quality than ebay random China strobes which I have also worked with.


----------



## Gavjenks

Making up some numbers to show the general concept:
Unit A costs $2000, breaks at 1% per year. Expected loss per year = $20.
Unit B costs $500, breaks at 5% per year. Expected loss per year = $100. This difference actually matters, and you will make up the initial higher cost in a sort of reasonable number of years (18), quite possibly while you're still a photographer.

Now what if the absolute numbers go down, but maintain the same ratio of breaking incidents?
Unit C costs $2000, breaks at 0.1% per year. Expected loss per year = $2
Unid D costs $500, breaks at 0.5% per year. Expected loss per year = $2.50 This difference is meaningless for your wallet. It's still "5 times more likely," but to make up the initial higher cost of unit C, on average _you'd have to own it for 3,000 years..._


I have no idea what the numbers actually are, but it's easy to calculate that to make up the price difference in, say, 20 years between an alienbees and a profoto,* you'd have to be destroying like half a dozen alienbees at a steady clip of one every few years*, and have the Buff company blow you off every single time and refuse all the warranties, etc.  Astronomically unlikely, IMO. 
VERY likely by comparison with no customer service, almost-as-expensive-but-way-crappier ebay china lights.

Advice to anybody who manages to blow through 6 alienbees in 20 years with no warranties on any of them: Try using your monolights for photography, and not as skeet shooting targets, and you might find your money goes further.


----------



## table1349

I've got a set of Norman pack lights that I have had for 30 years.  Never had a failure yet.  Replaced a few modeling lights and a couple of flash tubes.  Quality beats quantity every day of the week. Plus I don't worry about color shift at low power.  For studio work I don't mind pack lights.


----------



## Lighcatcher

It depends how powerful lights you need, but Alien Bees are very good and affordable brand. AB400 or AB800 are good value/power. AB800 will give you 300W/sec power output which is good for small to medium size studio. 

You cam also use AB800 for outdoor shots and overpower the Sun at certain times of the day. Whatever, you decide it's not worth it to buy cheap lights which will break after a year and you will end up buying good lights later. 

Cheers


----------



## Gavjenks

Also consider this:
Let's say you need 2 500 W/s monolights for the shoots you want to do.

Option 1: Buy *THREE *Einstein (same company as alienbees) that go up to 640 W/s, 9-stop range, down to 1/13,000th second duration, 2,000 full power shots per hour, color constancy, 1/10th stop control = *$1,500*
Option 2: Buy *TWO *Profoto 500W/s lights, 7-stop range, down to 1/2600th second duration, 1,500 full power shots per hour, color constancy, 1/10th stop control = *$2,400

*Option 1 gives you actually more utility and flexibility in the lights' options, because Einsteins can simply do more. AND saves you _$1,000_. The potential drawback is that maybe the build quality is not "tanklike." However, notice that I wrote "THREE" Einsteins. Even if there's a slightly higher chance of one breaking than the profoto in the middle of a shoot, you just whip out the backup and keep going. Then send off the other unit to the company whose excellent customer service should sort it out with you like everyone online says they do. In the meantime, just use your other two units, in a week or two, you're back to having a working backup. A scenario which frankly is likely to never happen even once on average, but if you demand high reliability, you have peace of mind and still save lots of money and get more flexibility.

In fact, option 1 gives you MORE reliability, because unless profotos are made out of adamantium and unicorn blood, the chances of having TWO einstein units fail at the same time (necessary to stop your shoot) is guaranteed lower than one profoto failing (which also stops your shoot). In order for this not to be true, it would have to be some ridiculous, like, 50x more likely per shoot to fail or something for the Einsteins, which clearly isn't remotely true.



Why would you not choose to simultaneously get:
* Higher reliability of making it through each shoot overall
* 40% off the price
* ~5x better motion freezing ability
* faster recycling
* more power
* more range

Well, again, maybe if you're carrying your monolights up a mountain, profotos might be a better choice. Otherwise, I suggest they are not.


----------



## tirediron

Gavjenks said:


> Also consider this:
> Let's say you need 2 500 W/s monolights for the shoots you want to do.
> Option 1: Buy THREE Einstein (same company as alienbees) that go up to 640 W/s, 9-stop range, down to 1/13,000th second duration, 2,000 full power shots per hour, color constancy, 1/10th stop control = $1,500
> Option 2: Buy TWO Profoto 500W/s lights, 7-stop range, down to 1/2600th second duration, 1,500 full power shots per hour, color constancy, 1/10th stop control = $2,400
> Option 1 gives you actually more utility and flexibility in the lights' options, because Einsteins can simply do more. AND saves you $1,000. The potential drawback is that maybe the build quality is not "tanklike." However, notice that I wrote "THREE" Einsteins. Even if there's a slightly higher chance of one breaking than the profoto in the middle of a shoot, you just whip out the backup and keep going. Then send off the other unit to the company whose excellent customer service should sort it out with you like everyone online says they do. In the meantime, just use your other two units, in a week or two, you're back to having a working backup. A scenario which frankly is likely to never happen even once on average, but if you demand high reliability, you have peace of mind and still save lots of money and get more flexibility.
> In fact, option 1 gives you MORE reliability, because unless profotos are made out of adamantium and unicorn blood, the chances of having TWO einstein units fail at the same time (necessary to stop your shoot) is guaranteed lower than one profoto failing (which also stops your shoot). In order for this not to be true, it would have to be some ridiculous, like, 50x more likely per shoot to fail or something for the Einsteins, which clearly isn't remotely true.
> 
> Why would you not choose to simultaneously get:
> * Higher reliability of making it through each shoot overall
> * 40% off the price
> * ~5x better motion freezing ability
> * faster recycling
> * more power
> * more range
> Well, again, maybe if you're carrying your monolights up a mountain, profotos might be a better choice. Otherwise, I suggest they are not.



Knowing full well that I will regret this....

First of all, two of your statistics are for all practical intents and purposes, meaningless:  1/13000 of a second flash duration?  WHO cares????  My speedotron heads at full power have something like a 1/800 of a second flash duration, and guess what?  There has never been a time when that hasn't been fast enough.  Unless you are shooting some sort of scientific research project, or trying to stop bullets mid-flight this is irrelevant.  2000 full power pops per hour?  That's over 33 frames a minute. Guess what.  Your camera can't keep up with that, so again.  Who cares?

Are two ABs/Einsteins 50x more likely to fail simultaneously than one Profoto?  I have no evidence one way or the other, but if I had to lay my money down, I'd lay it down on the Profots working and continuing to work.  

All of that aside, there are much more reasonable choices than either of the extremes listed here.  Elinchrom and Bowens are excellent names and both are a very good balance of quality and price point.


----------



## Gavjenks

My point ultimately is not that everyone ever should buy alienbees. It is just a brand that along with profot, as you say TiredIron, are at two extremes (almost), to help prove a point: which is that "zomg it's so rugged and quality!" is often overemphasized to the point of clearly being uneconomical, it almost gets a little fetishistic. 

And that's fine, in a way! I am guilty myself sometimes. But if so, at least *call it what it is: sometimes you just want to have fancy toys that you can either brag about or polish lovingly with your microfiber cloth late at night with a wild grin on your face. *Yet in reality, they might be pointlessly overbuilt or more luxury than you ever would need.  

* Cars that can reach 200 miles per hour even though the speed limit is 55 almost everywhere.
* Houses that have rooms you don't know what to do with.
* Pens that can write in space despite the fact that you're definitely never going to go to space.
* ...and lenses or monolights that are built to survive mortar fire, despite the fact that all you're actually ever going to do with them is unpack them from a nicely padded box and put them motionless on a pole and then put them pack in a nicely padded box. Honestly, my monolights could be made out of cardboard and I'd still probably not break them.

If it makes you feel good, and you can afford it, then great. Do it. Be happy, I don't care. But don't pretend that it's actually "THE logical choice" or whatever, because when you get to the high end quality in anything, it's not practically logical or economical, pretty much ever.





Elinchrom and Bower are both great brands, and definitely do exist along a continuum in between Buff and profoto, yes, as you say. All fine choices, really, depending on what you want.

But at the end of the day? If you were actually a hyper logical robot out to make the absolute best money choice you possibly could, all factors considered? Honestly, I think you would make the most profits probably buying Chinese crap monolights, 2-3 more of them than you need at any given time, and simply expecting them to fail at some fairly quick rate, and yet still saving money even if 10 of them break, over the course of a decade or two. The fact is, you can buy 20+ crap Chinese strobes for one really nice brand. And if you use 3 lights? That's 60 Chinese strobes you could afford instead. Sorry, but in no realm of reality are you going to somehow break more than 60 Chinese strobes in any amount of time.

That doesn't mean that's what we should all do. There's real value in "not feeling bad about your equipment" in and of itself. But it's worth acknowledging, for context, that that's what you're paying for: happiness. KNOW what you are spending your money on, if you spend it: Largely just feeling good about your gear is a big chunk of the price tag, as much as real utility.


----------



## table1349

Gavjenks said:


> But at the end of the day? If you were actually a hyper logical robot out to make the absolute best money choice you possibly could, all factors considered? Honestly, I think you would make the most profits probably buying Chinese crap monolights, 2-3 more of them than you need at any given time, and simply expecting them to fail at some fairly quick rate, and yet still saving money even if 10 of them break, over the course of a decade or two. The fact is, you can buy 20+ crap Chinese strobes for one really nice brand. And if you use 3 lights? That's 60 Chinese strobes you could afford instead. Sorry, but in no realm of reality are you going to somehow break more than 60 Chinese strobes in any amount of time.
> 
> That doesn't mean that's what we should all do. There's real value in "not feeling bad about your equipment" in and of itself. But it's worth acknowledging, for context, that that's what you're paying for: happiness. KNOW what you are spending your money on, if you spend it: Largely just feeling good about your gear is a big chunk of the price tag, as much as real utility.



Yeah.....Good Idea.....Try that as a business model and come back and tell us how it works out for you.  No lights, waiting on replacements etc. means down time.  There is an old saying in business you might have heard before. "Time is money."  

Successful business photographers use top quality gear for a reason and it has nothing to do with "being happy" or "fancy toys" or "bragging."  They use top quality gear because it is all part of running a successful photography business.  You think Ford or Chevy goes to Harbor Freight to buy their tool to build automobiles.  You think Boeing buys Craftsman tools to build airliners?  I have yet to see a furniture manufacture using Shop Smiths to build their lines of furniture.  They all use top quality equipment and materials for a reason.  

Frankly "being happy" or "fancy toys" or "bragging" all sound like veiled excuses for hiding equipment envy.  The OP in this thread sounds like they know what they want and need and is asking advise for the equipment that meets those needs in the price range THEY HAVE SET.  Not tough.

Tell us, in all those SWAG estimates you tossed up did you factor in the cost of lost business, damage to your business reputation from being unable to meet your business obligations and the extended damage that can cost a business?


----------



## Gavjenks

gryphonslair99 said:


> Yeah.....Good Idea.....Try that as a business model and come back and tell us how it works out for you.  No lights, waiting on replacements etc. means down time.  There is an old saying in business you might have heard before. "Time is money."





> * 2-3 more of them than you need at any given time*


I think you missed the critical point. You *do* have the equipment, you *don't* have any down time, because if you know you're buying a more likely to break unit, you buy backups. Several backups. if 2-3's not enough, get 5 backups, whatever. You're still saving $1000s even with 5 backups on hand.

So you have 7 cheap lights for $50 each (=$350).
Let's say one of them breaks on average every year. Occasionally maybe 2 or once in a blue moon 3 of them break all at once. Whatever, you have 5 backups, just whip em off the shelf and keep going in minutes, then replace with your 2 day amazon shipping after the shoot. No clients lost, no down time. Takes ten minutes, maybe $10 worth of your time to reorder and open the box.

Let's say you use this setup for 20 years = +20 more replacement lights and time spent ordering them = $1200.
Total cost for initial and upkeep = $1550. In other words, you're saving thousands of dollars over profoto still, especially if you would have gotten a backup one of those.



> You think Boeing buys Craftsman tools to build airliners?  I have yet to see a furniture manufacture using Shop Smiths to build their lines of furniture.  They all use top quality equipment and materials for a reason.


This is an unfair analogy, because a finely crafted Japanese hand plane does a way better job than a $10 plane from Home Depot. It's a different choice there, because you can make better furniture with the more expensive one, and it will probably pay for itself. I dunno about the Chinese strobes' specifications, fine, but the alienbees and Einstein units from Paul C Buff, actually perform *better *in every way in terms of photographic specifications than the profotos do, despite costing 1/3 as much or less. The only advantage of the profoto version appears to be tanklike build quality, which doesn't give you better photos. It only makes it less likely to break. 

And the Einstein unit can easily compete on breaking/reliability/downtime as well by simple means of redundancy. And it's SO MUCH cheaper that you can add more than one layer of redundancy and still save money easily. All before you could afford to get even 1 unit of redundancy in profoto.

So that leaves us with no apparent benefit of profoto at all (other than feeling happy about it). Not even a question of "is the money worth the slightly higher abilities that might make up the cost?" Nope, it's more money for _lesser _abilities in every way, which doesn't make sense business-wise.

A brief glance at the stats of Elinchrom and Bower suggest that the story is roughly the same there, just to a less dramatic degree.


----------



## Gavjenks

Also, Boeing and people like that have safety considerations on the floor. A unit failing means a person losing their arm to the broken rivet gun, or having a landing gear dropped on them, or whatever. So "let it break and use backups" ain't a good strategy for them.

Whereas alienbees being made out of plastic versus titanium alloy is at most going to cause the light to break when it hits something, or not. Nobody is losing an arm either way. So there's no worker's comp or lawsuits or ethics to factor into tool investments. In fact if anything, a big heavy metal tank light is more likely to injure somebody...


----------



## tirediron

Gavjenks said:


> Also, Boeing and people like that have safety considerations on the floor...


And so does the photographer.  What do you think Mommy is going to do when that inexpensive MIC lightstand collapses and junior wears your AB on his melon in the middle of the shoot?


----------



## Gavjenks

tirediron said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Boeing and people like that have safety considerations on the floor...
> 
> 
> 
> And so does the photographer.  What do you think Mommy is going to do when that inexpensive MIC lightstand collapses and junior wears your AB on his melon in the middle of the shoot?
Click to expand...

1) I didn't say anything about lightstands or whether expensive vs. cheap ones do their job better or which ones anybody should buy.
2) _Any_ given lightstand is significantly _more _likely to fall with a profoto than an AB on it, since the profoto weighs twice as much and is more topheavy. And will cause more injury to little Timmy when it hits his dome, since twice the mass = more momentum.


----------



## table1349

Gavjenks said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.....Good Idea.....Try that as a business model and come back and tell us how it works out for you.  No lights, waiting on replacements etc. means down time.  There is an old saying in business you might have heard before. "Time is money."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * 2-3 more of them than you need at any given time*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you missed the critical point. You *do* have the equipment, you *don't* have any down time, because if you know you're buying a more likely to break unit, you buy backups. Several backups. if 2-3's not enough, get 5 backups, whatever. You're still saving $1000s even with 5 backups on hand.
> 
> So you have 7 cheap lights for $50 each (=$350).
> Let's say one of them breaks on average every year. Occasionally maybe 2 or once in a blue moon 3 of them break all at once. Whatever, you have 5 backups, just whip em off the shelf and keep going in minutes, then replace with your 2 day amazon shipping after the shoot. No clients lost, no down time. Takes ten minutes, maybe $10 worth of your time to reorder and open the box.
> 
> Let's say you use this setup for 20 years = +20 more replacement lights and time spent ordering them = $1200.
> Total cost for initial and upkeep = $1550. In other words, you're saving thousands of dollars over profoto still, especially if you would have gotten a backup one of those.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think Boeing buys Craftsman tools to build airliners?  I have yet to see a furniture manufacture using Shop Smiths to build their lines of furniture.  They all use top quality equipment and materials for a reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is an unfair analogy, because a finely crafted Japanese hand plane does a way better job than a $10 plane from Home Depot. It's a different choice there, because you can make better furniture with the more expensive one, and it will probably pay for itself. I dunno about the Chinese strobes' specifications, fine, but the alienbees and Einstein units from Paul C Buff, actually perform *better *in every way in terms of photographic specifications than the profotos do, despite costing 1/3 as much or less. The only advantage of the profoto version appears to be tanklike build quality, which doesn't give you better photos. It only makes it less likely to break.
> 
> And the Einstein unit can easily compete on breaking/reliability/downtime as well by simple means of redundancy. And it's SO MUCH cheaper that you can add more than one layer of redundancy and still save money easily. All before you could afford to get even 1 unit of redundancy in profoto.
> 
> So that leaves us with no apparent benefit of profoto at all (other than feeling happy about it). Not even a question of "is the money worth the slightly higher abilities that might make up the cost?" Nope, it's more money for _lesser _abilities in every way, which doesn't make sense business-wise.
> 
> A brief glance at the stats of Elinchrom and Bower suggest that the story is roughly the same there, just to a less dramatic degree.
Click to expand...


*Horse manure!*

Tell me, now many alien bees do you own?  How many profotos, Elinchrom, Bowers, Norman, Hensel or any other brand of lighting do you own?  Have you done your own tests?  Hell have you even ever seriously used various brands of studio lighting or for that matter any serious use of any studio lighting?  

You seriously think that this Alienbee will out perform this Elinchrom?   The top end alienbee compared to the mid range Elinchrom.  

Tell me what is your recipe for dealing with the infamous low power color shift issue of the Alienbees?  

How many successful photograph business have you run or been part of?  Was it your business model they used of throwaway equipment?  

One last question.  Which Paul C. Buff lighting, be it Alienbees, Einsteins or White Lightings cost $50 per unit or did you just SWAG some figures together again with out having a clue of the real costs?

Man I sure hope that Iowa school has a good supply of those Cowboy Studio, Alienbee quality Cognitive Psychology researchers on hand.  There going to need em.


----------



## Derrel

OP: Here are my comments. Many people have ONLY owned Alien Bees, and they think highly of them, despite the grossly over-inflated model numbers the Buff lights typically use. A Buff-made White Ligtning 3200 is, as Buff's own site states, "1,320 Watt-seconds" at full power, and the flash output is approximately equal to a 300 Watt-second Speedotron flash unit with 65-degree reflector, and LESS than the same Speedotron flash with a 50-degree beam 11.5 inch reflector.

Alien Bees are meant mostly for use with umbrellas, and are low-cost lights that are the first, and ONLY, lights many people have ever used. They are low-cost, but the "Model numbers" are utter hogwash, and are grossly inflated to make buyers think they have a lot more "power" than they do have.

Bowens INVENTED THE FIRST monolight, and still makes good ones. Elinchrom is Europe and the UK's #1 brand. Calumet's monolights are on par with those two brands.

If you want "professional grade" monolights, I would look at the above three brands: Bowens, Elinchrom, Calumet. 

The Einstein 640 is a nice unit, even though what Buff specifies as 600 to 620 Watt-seconds give about the same light output as a Speedotron M11 outputs at 250 Watt-seconds. Paul C. Buff - Expected Output

As you can see, Buff's White Lightning 3200 model, his site lists as producing 1,230 Watt-seconds at full power. His site lists the Alien Bees 800 as being " 320 to 330 Watt-Seconds at full power".

The Alien Bees 400 at full power is, "160-165" Watt-seconds at full power.

Plenty of bull**** in the majority of the Buff product line's model-naming strategy.

Flash "power" for indoor use is not that big an issue. If you need to "overpower the sun"


----------



## Gavjenks

> Tell me, now many alien bees do you own? How many profotos, Elinchrom, Bowers, Norman, Hensel or any other brand of lighting do you own? Have you done your own tests? Hell have you even ever seriously used various brands of studio lighting or for that matter any serious use of any studio lighting?


I own two alienbees and an einstein. I don't own any of the others for precisely the reasons I am explaining here: I don't think they're worth the money. I HAVE used a profoto and a Bower before for a shoot, one while second shooting, and one just messing around with a friend's equipment. I found nothing particularly more pleasant or fluid or useful about working with either of them at all.

Yes they were noticeably sturdier and sleeker and tougher feeling. They also weighed about twice as much (as the alienbees, only a little bit more than einstein). That is all though.



> Tell me what is your recipe for dealing with the infamous low power color shift issue of the Alienbees?


1) It's not that bad in the first place.
2) It rarely comes up, because I rarely want to dramatically change the power of the strobes during a single shoot, and I have tested to see at what levels the alienbees best match the einstein in cases where I want to use both.
3) If I am using only the alienbees together, and I do for some reason want to dramatically shift power, I could correct it in RAW conversion once to match and then just apply it to all the photos from the secon half of the shoot. It would take 5 minutes, tops.
4) The einstein is excellent and has no color issues I've ever seen in its color constancy mode. If I was using only those (still at 1/3 price of profotos and 1/2 price midrange strobes), I would never have any such problems at any power levels.



> You seriously think that this Alienbee will out perform this Elinchrom? The top end alienbee compared to the mid range Elinchrom.


No, I don't think the elinchrom will outperform an *einstein *(which is what I would properly compare it to, not the B1600 which is very much an obsolete unit and a straw man IMO). It has narrower range, longer minimum duration (athletic shots or anything with motion at all, 1/2000 is not that powerful, there's a reason our nicer cameras are made go to 1/8000th), and most other stats look about equal. 

Plus you're asking the wrong question anyway. It's not "will that Elinchrom outperform one Einstein?"  It's "Will that one elinchrom outperform *TWO *Einsteins?" because that's what you can get for the same money.

1 is maybe debatable. The build quality might outweight the stats, and if Derrel is right about power levels, then maybe it has an edge there, etc. But two? No, absolutely not.



> How many successful photograph business have you run or been part of? Was it your business model they used of throwaway equipment?


Full time? None (either way). How many full time businesses that used throwaway equipment as part of their business model have I been in in other industries? About 4.  It's by no means a business strategy I just made up 5 minutes ago. It works just fine.

So long as nothing horrible happens when a piece of equipment fails, then there's nothing wrong with just allowing for units failing. This is NOT an appropriate business strategy if you're talking about high speed centrifuges, for example. if they fail they can kill everyone in the room. But if failure just means "oh the light stopped turning on, grab another one from the shelf and swap out," then it's fine.



> One last question. Which Paul C. Buff lighting, be it Alienbees, Einsteins or White Lightings cost $50 per unit or did you just SWAG some figures together again with out having a clue of the real costs?


The cheap Chinese ones cost $50.  The Einstein costs $500. I wrote out a scenario for both in different parts of the thread. Sorry about any confusion.
Einsteins probably make more sense, since the Chinese ones don't have all the features you might need like sufficient power or whatever (if they do, though, I would go for those probably). The plan for Einsteins is NOT to have 5 extras on hand. You only really need one extra of those, I'd say. They're quite nice. Significantly nicer than alienbees, which are themselves not at all "flimsy." You're not gonna have two break at once.




> Man I sure hope that Iowa school has a good supply of those Cowboy Studio, Alienbee quality Cognitive Psychology researchers on hand. There going to need em.


I have no idea what this sentence means.


----------



## Gavjenks

> Flash "power" for indoor use is not that big an issue. If you need to "overpower the sun"


Perhaps the numbers are lower than advertised, I can't tell you that personally.

But I can tell you that the Einstein is perfectly capable of overpowering the sun.


----------



## tirediron

Just out of curiosity Gav, how much is Mr. Buff paying you?


----------



## Derrel

Here's a great example about inflated Buff naming on their Alien Bees units. 

Notice how the 2.4x more-costly Alien Bee 400 has a significantly LOWER measured flash output than a $99.95 Flashpoint 320M sold by Adorama? 

Notice how the Flashpoint 620M outputs over a full f/stop MORE light than the Alien Bee 800?

Notice how the *$99.95 Flashpoint 320 has output equal to or 1/10 stop more than the Alien Bee 800, which costs $279.95?*




product review | adorama flashpoint studio gear | Clickin MomsClickin Moms

The above is why, for people who inquire about their first-ever studio flash units, I often suggest the $99.95 Adorama Flashpoint 320M, which is an AC-current OR DC-battery powered option that has HIGHER output than the Alien Bee 400, and equal or ever-so-slightly higher output than the Alien Bee 800.

In terms of buying *Chinese-made lights* like Alien Bees or Flashpointss, and looking at them as "disposable" or "throwaway" lights, for the past three years I've been telling beginners to buy the Flashpoints.

WIth the $99.95 Flashpoint 320M, buyers get MORE light output than the $249 AB 400, and MORE light than the $279.95 Alien Bee 800.

So...$99.95 versus $249.95 or $279.95.


----------



## Gavjenks

[*edit*: nevermind I read the chart wrong]

But anyway, yeah sure, the flashpoint 320M is probably a fine option for a planned throwaway light strategy. I'm guessing, since it is Chinese made and the B400 is not (don't know why you keep insisting on that), it's probably more likely to break down. But at less than half cost (and sure more light output), might very well be worth it.

Tough call, either way seems reasonable to me. I might have chosen differently if I'd seen the chart when i was shopping for my cheaper monolights. *shrug*




> Just out of curiosity Gav, how much is Mr. Buff paying you?


I think it just happens to be at the top of the [utility / cost] curve from my research and experience (the Einstein that is, which now that I've gotten one is what I would definitely get more of if needed, not more alienbees). That's all.


----------



## Derrel

Gavjenks said:


> *Why is that chart only in full f/stops?* It implies they only rounded to full f/stops, which makes the data fairly useless. (one could be 0.45 and another one 0.55 and they'd be rounded a full stop apart).]
> 
> But anyway, yeah sure, the flashpoint 320M is probably a fine option for a planned throwaway light strategy. I'm guessing, since it is Chinese made and the B400 is not (don't know why you keep insisting on that), it's probably more likely to break down. But at less than half cost (and sure more light output), might be worth it.
> 
> Tough call, either way seems reasonable to me. *shrug*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity Gav, how much is Mr. Buff paying you?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it just happens to be at the top of the [utility / cost] curve from my research and experience (the Einstein that is, which now that I've gotten one is what I would definitely get more of if needed, not more alienbees). That's all.
Click to expand...


Take a look "genius"...f/18 and f/10 are not "full stops".

Try a little harder.


----------



## Gavjenks

I already edited my post while you were writing that.


----------



## pixmedic

ugh...
just get speedlights. 
less power, sure....but more versatility in the ability to use them on camera (or on a flash bracket) as well as off camera. 
my chinese made yongnuo 568EX's have been performing just as well for me as my OEM Nikon SB700, better than my SB600, and give me full TTL and HSS. 


as far as actual studio lighting goes....
never used any.  I do have a friend that has a nice little studio not too far from my house that uses a D800, all Nikkor pro lenses, and Flashpoint lighting. he has yet to have a problem with them in the 5 years he has had the studio.  Other than that, my knowledge on this lighting debate is pretty much nil minus 3.


----------



## Gavjenks

^ Monolights aren't just for studios. I use them outdoors, too, with a portable AC inverter. There are several reasons why:

* In the day, speedlights aren't nearly as strong (at least not for the money) for overpowering the sun, if you want to.
* At night or dusk, the modeling lamps are really helpful.
* They cycle faster and power through an intensive photoshoot better.
* They're a lot easier and less finicky to hook up to modifiers.

Speedlights obviously have their place too. If I want to travel light, a speedlight and small umbrella on the same bracket gives great lighting that can be directional and soft, for *much *less carry space and weight. Corner of a purse-sized camera bag vs. huge backpack or vehicle. And they can usually have better motion freezing at low power.

It is nice to have both.



HSS doesn't matter if you have more power. The whole point of HSS is it compensates for less power by letting you black out ambient light with fast shutter speeds instead of by simply overpowering it. And TTL is nice, yes, but personally I don't tend to use flash much outside of scheduled shoots where I would normally be using manual exposure. That's just me. Also, I believe some monolights (including one of mine, though I don't remember the manual and don't use the feature) can do TTL with appropriate transmitters used.


----------



## Roger3006

Equipment you use to make a living with is like a dangerous game rifle.  There is no such thing as overkill.  Look at your competitors like dangerous game.  They want your livelihood.

IMHO

Roger


----------



## Gavjenks

> Equipment you use to make a living with is like a dangerous game rifle. There is no such thing as overkill. Look at your competitors like dangerous game. They want your livelihood.


I don't know about you, but when I photograph models, my competition is not typically standing in the same room with their own set of lights ready to jump in, sign a separate contract with the model, and start shooting within the 30 seconds it would take to calmly take a monolight off a stand and replace it with another monolight.

Nor would any model I've ever worked with say something like "GAWD! This shoot took 1 hour and 30 seconds, instead of 1 hour. I'm never working with you again you incompetent idiot." Maybe as a joke. If they did, we would probably get along pretty well.


----------



## Roger3006

Not a joke, you missed the point.


----------



## Gavjenks

Okay. Can you rephrase, then please / give an example to help me out?


----------



## pixmedic

Roger3006 said:


> Equipment you use to make a living with is like a dangerous game rifle.  There is no such thing as overkill.  Look at your competitors like dangerous game.  They want your livelihood.
> 
> IMHO
> 
> Roger



using the biggest baddest piece of equipment doesn't necessarily mean it is the optimal working solution. 
cost -vs- need is a huge factor. 
you do NOT take an elephant gun hunting pheasants. 
nor do you hunt quail with a 50 caliber bolt action sniper rifle. 

our 568EX speedlights with shoot through umbrellas are more than sufficient for taking portraits.
we have yet to have a client look at our lighting and complain that we weren't using prophoto lights. 
or even that we were using speedlights instead of studio monolights.


----------



## EIngerson

I love how the same guy goes out of his way to argue his point until he completely discredits himself. Every forum I've ever been on has "that guy", why should TPF be any different. I would ignore it and move to another thread, but he's doing the same thing in ALL the other threads too. He doesn't take photos because there isn't enough time in the day to do that and discredit himself here. 

It's exhausting.


----------



## Gavjenks

> He doesn't take photos because *he can barely open the door through snow drifts and it's -20 windchill in his town right now*


FTFY.

(By comparison, I suppose Ingerson is so busy out winning his various Pullitzer prizes in photography that he doesn't have time to actually justify any his claims.)


----------



## Tee

I make no secrets that I'm an Elinchrom guy (if I could only get sponsorship :mrgreen.  I have 4 BXri monolights (three 500's, one 250) and various modifiers.  Aside from buying 2 lights brand new, I built my arsenal of modifiers and additional lights by combing various buy and sell forums and saved an average of 30% of the original cost.  I have used Alien Bees in the past and while I think they are a good fit for the budget conscious weekend warrior, I was not impressed with the build quality and "toy" feel.  I know money is always an important factor when buying but that also has to be weighed against quality.  My investment in Elinchrom products means less issues down the road.  I have thousands of pops on my lights and I know I'm going to get consistency every time.  When I researched lights I looked at it as a long term investment.  

For outdoor work, I pair the moonlights with the Paul C. Buff portable battery pack.  It's really no more hassle carrying a moonlight w/ soft box than it is speedlights w/ modifier.  Just sling the battery pack over the shoulder and off you go.


----------



## table1349

Gavjenks said:


> Tell me, now many alien bees do you own? How many profotos, Elinchrom, Bowers, Norman, Hensel or any other brand of lighting do you own? Have you done your own tests? Hell have you even ever seriously used various brands of studio lighting or for that matter any serious use of any studio lighting?
> 
> 
> 
> I own two alienbees and an einstein. I don't own any of the others for precisely the reasons I am explaining here: I don't think they're worth the money. I HAVE used a profoto and a Bower before for a shoot, one while second shooting, and one just messing around with a friend's equipment. I found nothing particularly more pleasant or fluid or useful about working with either of them at all.
> 
> Yes they were noticeably sturdier and sleeker and tougher feeling. They also weighed about twice as much (as the alienbees, only a little bit more than einstein). That is all though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what is your recipe for dealing with the infamous low power color shift issue of the Alienbees?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1) It's not that bad in the first place.
> 2) It rarely comes up, because I rarely want to dramatically change the power of the strobes during a single shoot, and I have tested to see at what levels the alienbees best match the einstein in cases where I want to use both.
> 3) If I am using only the alienbees together, and I do for some reason want to dramatically shift power, I could correct it in RAW conversion once to match and then just apply it to all the photos from the secon half of the shoot. It would take 5 minutes, tops.
> 4) The einstein is excellent and has no color issues I've ever seen in its color constancy mode. If I was using only those (still at 1/3 price of profotos and 1/2 price midrange strobes), I would never have any such problems at any power levels.
> 
> 
> No, I don't think the elinchrom will outperform an *einstein *(which is what I would properly compare it to, not the B1600 which is very much an obsolete unit and a straw man IMO). It has narrower range, longer minimum duration (athletic shots or anything with motion at all, 1/2000 is not that powerful, there's a reason our nicer cameras are made go to 1/8000th), and most other stats look about equal.
> 
> Plus you're asking the wrong question anyway. It's not "will that Elinchrom outperform one Einstein?"  It's "Will that one elinchrom outperform *TWO *Einsteins?" because that's what you can get for the same money.
> 
> 1 is maybe debatable. The build quality might outweight the stats, and if Derrel is right about power levels, then maybe it has an edge there, etc. But two? No, absolutely not.
> 
> 
> Full time? None (either way). How many full time businesses that used throwaway equipment as part of their business model have I been in in other industries? About 4.  It's by no means a business strategy I just made up 5 minutes ago. It works just fine.
> 
> So long as nothing horrible happens when a piece of equipment fails, then there's nothing wrong with just allowing for units failing. This is NOT an appropriate business strategy if you're talking about high speed centrifuges, for example. if they fail they can kill everyone in the room. But if failure just means "oh the light stopped turning on, grab another one from the shelf and swap out," then it's fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One last question. Which Paul C. Buff lighting, be it Alienbees, Einsteins or White Lightings cost $50 per unit or did you just SWAG some figures together again with out having a clue of the real costs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The cheap Chinese ones cost $50.  The Einstein costs $500. I wrote out a scenario for both in different parts of the thread. Sorry about any confusion.
> Einsteins probably make more sense, since the Chinese ones don't have all the features you might need like sufficient power or whatever (if they do, though, I would go for those probably). The plan for Einsteins is NOT to have 5 extras on hand. You only really need one extra of those, I'd say. They're quite nice. Significantly nicer than alienbees, which are themselves not at all "flimsy." You're not gonna have two break at once.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man I sure hope that Iowa school has a good supply of those Cowboy Studio, Alienbee quality Cognitive Psychology researchers on hand. There going to need em.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no idea what this sentence means.
Click to expand...


As clueless as a blond in a round room who was told to go sit in a corner.  

I have had the Norman for over 30 years (5 heads) as I said before with no issues other than standard maintenance.  I have had and used 4 Elinchromes for 12 years when I need portability, and with the exception of dropping a reflector and ruining it, they have given me *NO* problems. Haven't even had to replace a flash tube yet.  Shoots your fuzzy math all to hell now don't it.   

I don't need extras on hand because I have a product I know will work and continue to work.  That is what they are designed and built for, to work today, tomorrow and every day after.  They don't have planned obsolescence build into them or the mindset of their users.    They are not for the weekend shooter for fun, but for those that want and need a quality product they can rely on, rather than having to keep spares around.  

Tell you what, I'll just keep using my dependable lights and you just keep buying spares and we will both be happy.


----------



## table1349

Roger3006 said:


> Not a joke, you missed the point.



And you are surprised *WHY*?????


----------



## Gavjenks

> Shoots your fuzzy math all to hell now don't it.


Uh no. Not really. 

Perhaps you were not reading it very carefully, but my math was assuming exactly what you're saying. That's why I was comparing the high end lights without backups to the lower end lights with backups. That was taken into account.

It is still a fraction of the cost, even assuming the high end lights never break once in your entire career, and that the low end lights break yearly. And that's being super unfair to the low end lights, since they don't break anywhere close that often, AND they have warranties for longer than a year.


----------



## table1349

Gavjenks said:


> Shoots your fuzzy math all to hell now don't it.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh no. Not really.
> 
> Perhaps you were not reading it very carefully, but my math was assuming exactly what you're saying. That's why I was comparing the high end lights without backups to the lower end lights with backups. That was taken into account.
> 
> It is still a fraction of the cost, even assuming the high end lights never break once in your entire career, and that the low end lights break yearly. And that's being super unfair to the low end lights, since they don't break anywhere close that often, AND they have warranties for longer than a year.
Click to expand...


----------



## pixmedic

so....
are we done here?
has the OP's question been answered?


----------



## Derrel

Tee said:
			
		

> I have used *Alien Bees* in the past and while I think they are a good fit for the budget conscious weekend warrior, *I was not impressed with the build quality and "toy" feel.*  I know money is always an important factor when buying but that also has to be weighed against quality.



Prepare for a 12-paragraph rebuttal, Tee.


----------



## Gavjenks

Elegant point, Gryphon.

Anyway, no more opinions from me, but continuing with profoto as a comparison, I googled reviews of it versus Buff einsteins. So these are the three  comparisons I was able to find, amongst people who have actually sat there and used both and run direct tests between them, hand-on:

http://kevsteele.com/blog/profoto-einstein-lighting/
Durability is higher on the profoto
Einstein is better able to freeze action
A large amount of the rest of the review is about accessories (it's a kit comparison not just basic lights)
Recycle is the same.

No particular mention of any differences in artistically-relevant abilities


Einstein 640 vs Profoto D1 w/ PhaseOne IQ {head to head} » Kern-Photo - Kern-Photo
[comparing to D1 1000 for $1700]
Winners of each category considered below:
Light quality: Tie
Flash Duration: Einstein by a nose
Overall Power: Profoto, although he says profoto wins by 1 stop, when he chose a profoto that's ADVERTISED as winning by almost a stop. So that's a little silly IMO, but whatever. Note that this disagrees with Derrel's table (would have won by 2 stops if it agreed)
Power Adjustment: Einstein
Expected cost regarding repairs: Einstein
Customer Service: Einstein
Weight: Einstein
Brand and Inspiration: Tie
Modifiers: Profoto
Resale Value: Profoto
Overall design and build quality: Profoto
Cost: Massively Einstein


Is Profoto Worth Its Price? The Showdown! - Ep#126
Basically: He thinks profoto is good if you make more than about $80,000 a year as a photographer. Though he suggests for your highest profile corporate clients you may want to rent profoto primarily just so that people will think you're more of a pro and not judge you, then use cheaper monolights the rest of the time.


----------



## Derrel

One fabulous place for professional photo equipment is Calumet Photographic. Look at this page and the subsequent few pages, and the "good brands" for lighting pop right up.  Studio Flash Kits

These are lighting kits, with the majority of the needed stuff included. Profoto,Speedotron,Dynalite,Elinchrom,Broncolor,Genesis. These few pages also give a really good overview of the variety of products available.


----------



## Tee

Derrel said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have used *Alien Bees* in the past and while I think they are a good fit for the budget conscious weekend warrior, *I was not impressed with the build quality and "toy" feel.*  I know money is always an important factor when buying but that also has to be weighed against quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prepare for a 12-paragraph rebuttal, Tee.
Click to expand...


LOL.  I was going to mention the color shift as well but that was already covered.


----------



## table1349

Tee said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have used *Alien Bees* in the past and while I think they are a good fit for the budget conscious weekend warrior, *I was not impressed with the build quality and "toy" feel.*  I know money is always an important factor when buying but that also has to be weighed against quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prepare for a 12-paragraph rebuttal, Tee.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL.  I was going to mention the color shift as well but that was already covered.
Click to expand...

Heck, if you have a color shift issue you just throw that unit away, go to your closet and pull out one of those backup units and just keep shooting.  Oh wait, the closet might not be big enough to hold that many backup units.


----------

