# Very Troubling TV New Series



## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Ok, the other night, we watched a much promoed thingie on "Bad Wedding Photographers".

Now, I'm against photogs that don't deliver, but this wasn't about this. This was about "bad" wedding photography.

The gripes were:
1. Bad exposure
2. Sub contractors
3. Sub standard cameras
4. Crap like light switches in the photos.

Ok, first of all, this photogs starting price is $550. He shows on his website EXACTLY what he does. Warts and all. He was crucified in my humble opinion. He tried to defend himself, even calling the cops on the news team that showed up......to no avail.
Hey, what the hell do you want for a $550 wedding? These brides were not "tricked", they were "cheap". They got exactly what was advertised.
I hope you support this photog, as I do.
Please see his site at: well I'd give it to you, but it's down now.
This is a crappy shame! The guys showed his photos. The brides beeocthed when they got what they exactly what they were shown and paid for. Now this photog is ruined.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Here is a link to one of the stories:
http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_270210929.html

and the new link to the photogs site:
http://www.pictureperfectmoment.net/


I hope you guys join in with support for this guy.


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## AprilRamone (Oct 1, 2007)

Weird.  Was this an actual new series where they will have more episodes on "bad" photographers?  Or was it some sort of special they had on the Dallas local news?  

I quickly looked at their site, and you're right, you can see the quality of their work right there.  It's frustrating because the public thinks good pictures are taken in an instant and don't realize how much time is spent learning to get the photo right and then perfect it in photoshop.  Which means many don't want to pay a photographer well.


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## wildmaven (Oct 1, 2007)

Eek. I don't know what to say. I'm the person who knows there are 2 sides to an issue and it's hard to make a judgement based on a stupid TV show. I know, as a bride, I was upset when our wedding photographer neglected to take any pictures of one member of our bridal party, even though she had walked down the aisle. It was a missed moment that I'll never get back. She was even on the list of those whom I wanted photographed. Now, as a photographer, I'm still undecided as to whether I should be angry at him or not. But it was one bride, one moment, and there would be no way I would blast him on a TV show.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

No April, from what I understand, this is an ongoing series. What is bad for 500 bucks? Not much, IMO.
And who is it exactly on the news teams that decide what is bad?
Hey, look at the pricing. This guy is doing a great service IMO. He isn't asking much for his 20 years of experience. He's a shoot and burn guy and says as much.
But there he was on Local but bigtime Dallas/Fort Worth News hiding his face, trying to run from the camera man, and had to call the cops.
It's horrible.
Cheap ass brides, listen up. You get blown out photos. You get subs. You get all the warts of your gymnasium wedding decorated by your mommy.
What the heck did they expect?
The worst part is this guy who gave 20 years of his life is totally ruined. They have kids. They will probably lose their home. It sucks. It sucks alot.
And he isn't to blame. That is the worst part of it. He showed EXACTLY what he does. Is he a great photog? No. He's average. And now, he will probably lose his home.
How fair is that?
NEVER work with cheap ass brides. Ever. Get insurance for the crazy folks.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> Eek. I don't know what to say. I'm the person who knows there are 2 sides to an issue and it's hard to make a judgement based on a stupid TV show. I know, as a bride, I was upset when our wedding photographer neglected to take any pictures of one member of our bridal party, even though she had walked down the aisle. It was a missed moment that I'll never get back. She was even on the list of those whom I wanted photographed. Now, as a photographer, I'm still undecided as to whether I should be angry at him or not. But it was one bride, one moment, and there would be no way I would blast him on a TV show.


 

Wm, no offense, but what was your budget, and what did you pay for?


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

AprilRamone said:


> Weird. Was this an actual new series where they will have more episodes on "bad" photographers? Or was it some sort of special they had on the Dallas local news?
> 
> I quickly looked at their site, and you're right, you can see the quality of their work right there. It's frustrating because the public thinks good pictures are taken in an instant and don't realize how much time is spent learning to get the photo right and then perfect it in photoshop. Which means many don't want to pay a photographer well.


 
They saw exactly what he does.  And then they wanted a 5000 dollar photog after the wedding.
No fair.
This guy is totally ruined.  It's not right.  The cheap ass brides got a photog willing to do their gymnasium weddings at a bargain.  And then, when they saw what was really there, they were pissed.
Not his fault.  He recorded the event.  As it was.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

And BTW, I'm not saying that brides need to spend X amount of money.
What I am saying is that if they are cheap ass brides, who luckily find photogs willing to do their weddings, they should do a freaking happy dance that they found them.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Am I alone here?  Speak up.  This guy is about to lose his home.


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## wildmaven (Oct 1, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Wm, no offense, but what was your budget, and what did you pay for?


 
Our price was $2500 which included the ceremony, pictures in between, and the reception (all of which were at the same location), total time of 4 hours. This included one (I think it was 30 pages) wedding album. Additional photos were extra.


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## Jeepnut28 (Oct 1, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Am I alone here? Speak up. This guy is about to lose his home.


 


from looking at his website, his work isnt horrible....its not like he's delivering a bunch of blurry/ out of foucs fotos.....they just lack any style, creativity or umph...........dont people look at the work before hiring someone?


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## wildmaven (Oct 1, 2007)

The only thing that gives me pause about this case is this part: "Picture Perfect Moment also has an unsatisfactory record with the Better Business Bureau because of unanswered complaints." Why wouldn't he answer the complaints? If someone had entered a complaint against me, I certainly would answer it.  Again, I don't know both sides. I'm only hearing what the news wants us to hear, which is unfortunate.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Jeepnut28 said:


> from looking at his website, his work isnt horrible....its not like he's delivering a bunch of blurry/ out of foucs fotos.....they just lack any style, creativity or umph...........dont people look at the work before hiring someone?


 
That's the point.  They DID look at his site.  And then they hired him because he was cheap.
And then they sicked the news on him because they got EXACTLY what they saw.
This should be a major wake up call.  
I know for sure I wouldn't want the news cameras in my face first thing in the morning because some cheap ass bride was pissed because of her cheap ass wedding photos of her cheap ass wedding.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> The only thing that gives me pause about this case is this part: "Picture Perfect Moment also has an unsatisfactory record with the Better Business Bureau because of unanswered complaints." Why wouldn't he answer the complaints? If someone had entered a complaint against me, I certainly would answer it.  Again, I don't know both sides. I'm only hearing what the news wants us to hear, which is unfortunate.


 

And why the hell wouldn't they look? They looked. They just didn't care. They got some $500 wedding photography. And then they wine and complain that it isn't good enough.  For $500 bucks? They cound't get an album for that from most wedding photogs.
Buyer's remorse. Meanwhile, this guy is getting totally crucified. He's going to lose his home. He has children. If you don't stand up in support, we should all just sit down and watch us get picked off one by one by cheap ass brides.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> Our price was $2500 which included the ceremony, pictures in between, and the reception (all of which were at the same location), total time of 4 hours. This included one (I think it was 30 pages) wedding album. Additional photos were extra.


 
For that amount of money, you have a ligit gripe.


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## Icon72 (Oct 1, 2007)

I would have had to have seen the show myself to make up my final opinion on the matter but from what I read in the news story there was more to this than just a few photos the brides thought were bad. Not delivering photos for over a year? Having a subcontracted photog sitting down with a plate of food and not even realizing the first dance was over already? That kind of stuff is a bit concerning no matter what their price might be. The news story said there is a string of complaints against the people. Is there more to it than just some bad photographs? Obviously everyone can't afford a high end photographer to do their wedding. I couldn't afford to spend a couple of thousand dollars when I got married 7 years ago and I still couldn't afford it today. We paid $500 for our photographer and they did a fine job. They documented the event, they were where they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be. We had no complaints. It was obvious that they cared about what they did for a living. We didn't have electric cords in our photos or anything like that but the photos were by no means glamorous or awe inspiring. They are nice photos that documented the event for what we paid. 

Obviously this has struck a nerve with you Elsaspet but please take care when mentioning what you perceive to be "cheap ass brides" so frequently. Not all of us can afford photographers in the $2000 - $3000 range.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Jeepnut28 said:


> from looking at his website, his work isnt horrible....its not like he's delivering a bunch of blurry/ out of foucs fotos.....they just lack any style, creativity or umph...........dont people look at the work before hiring someone?


 
The unfotunate fact is cheap ass brides WANT Bussink, but they opt for the lowest bid.
And when they get it, they gripe.  In this case they called the news.
This could happen to ANYONE.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Here is the deal.  I want to start some sort of support for this guy.  He's not a member here.
But at the same time, if we aren't willing to help this guy, who is ALOT like some of the wedding photogs here, I'm not willing to help anyone anymore.
Either you see his plight, or you don't.  If you don't, don't expect help when the photo police come for you.


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## wildmaven (Oct 1, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> For that amount of money, you have a ligit gripe.


 
:hugs: Thanks.

Here's the page on the photographer for the Better Business Bureau:
http://www.dallas.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=90011820

I think this should be a lesson to us all. If you get a complaint, answer it! Reply to it! No matter how trivial or stupid it seems, because once you get multiple unreplied complaints, you're setting yourself up for a fall. I hope none of us ever have to face what this gentleman is facing.


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## Jeepnut28 (Oct 1, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Here is the deal. I want to start some sort of support for this guy. He's not a member here.
> But at the same time, if we aren't willing to help this guy, who is ALOT like some of the wedding photogs here, I'm not willing to help anyone anymore.
> Either you see his plight, or you don't. If you don't, don't expect help when the photo police come for you.


 

I'd be willing to support the guy, if answers to the questions regarding his business practices were to come.....it is one thing to take a plain jane photo, it is another thing to make business promises and not deliver on them.......that is what will give wedding photogs a bad name and make things hell on the rest of us.....if I say you get an album, them you damn sure are to get an album from me......if I say I will have your edits ready in three weeks, you get them in two and half from me.......I may not be a GREAT photog, but I will always deliver to my clients exactly what I said I would do.


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## simonkit (Oct 1, 2007)

I've just been on the receiving end of a pretty bad wedding photographer experience myself

I recently married in the Grand Canyon & hired a photographer as part of the package - equipment wise I couldn't fault him - Nikon D2X.

However the prints supplied were flat & lifeless, fortunately I managed to take along a Fuji F10 which produced the best of our wedding photos.

After complaining to the company involved the answer was - "the supplied images are unedited from the RAW originals & therefore will appear somewhat lifeless", great excuse for very poor wedding photos.

Moral of the story - take your own camera, even better someone you know can take decent photographs !!

 simon


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## Icon72 (Oct 1, 2007)

How can we expected to support a guy with a BBB record like his? Maybe he truly is the victim but why does he not resolve the complaints or at least answer the BBB? Why does it take over a year to deliver photos? Is this really about brides that expected to see wonderful glamorous photos or is it about people that were expecting, at the very least, some half way decent average photographs and didn't even get that?

If you were the bride and you paid any amount of money for a photographer to document your wedding would you be ok with the photographer missing parts of the wedding? Missing pictures of people you specifically requested to have photographs of? Not delivering what you paid for in a reasonable amount of time?

Elsaspet, your input on the forums is priceless and your work is wonderful. Obviously your are quite upset about the situation but there are just way too many questions and open ended situations that would need to be addressed before the members of TPF could possibly come to any intelligent conclusions on the matter. Yet you threaten to not help any of us anymore if we don't support something we only know bits and pieces about? I find this a bit hard to swallow.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Icon72 said:


> How can we expected to support a guy with a BBB record like his? Maybe he truly is the victim but why does he not resolve the complaints or at least answer the BBB? Why does it take over a year to deliver photos? Is this really about brides that expected to see wonderful glamorous photos or is it about people that were expecting, at the very least, some half way decent average photographs and didn't even get that?
> 
> If you were the bride and you paid any amount of money for a photographer to document your wedding would you be ok with the photographer missing parts of the wedding? Missing pictures of people you specifically requested to have photographs of? Not delivering what you paid for in a reasonable amount of time?
> 
> Elsaspet, your input on the forums is priceless and your work is wonderful. Obviously your are quite upset about the situation but there are just way too many questions and open ended situations that would need to be addressed before the members of TPF could possibly come to any intelligent conclusions on the matter. Yet you threaten to not help any of us anymore if we don't support something we only know bits and pieces about? I find this a bit hard to swallow.


Ok, I see your point.
I'm gonna sleep on this.  I see both sides.  I really do.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Ok, just one more thought before I sleep on it.
I've known many photogs who got in over their heads on packaging. No it isnt' right. Yes, I agree with the bride on that. They bought something, and they should have it.
The major problem I have in the news reports are about the glare, the light switches and all that crap. Do I leave them in my photos? No. But then again, I'm not charging 500 bucks.
I'm trying to look ahead for all those guys who are charging a reasonalble amount for the shoot and burn wedding for the bride with not so many bucks.
I know many of you charge below 2000 bucks. And the bride wants perfection. I don't want to see any of you, or me, on the news, hiding from cameras, because we had some glare in the photos or didn't give the albums to them in a nanosecond.
You wanna know how many people biatched about the album waiting time? Two. Exactly two. I can tell you from experience that I've had brides come back four YEARS later, wanting to make album changes.
There are two sides to every story.
Being pissed off about over exposed shots on your 500 wedding photography is not one of them to me.
I'm looking out for your guys. I haven't charged 500 bucks for a wedding....ever. But some of you do.
We try to warn you about the cheap ass brides, but it's a job, and some of you take them.
And then here is a guy, followed by more guys to come, on the 10 o'clock news. It sure would be nice if people stood by you.
So today, they are crabbing about light sockets. Tomorrow they will be biatching that they look fat. How much are you going to put up with until you help a brother out?
Are you going to wait until it happens to you?
Because, if you have cheap ass brides, it will. Promise. I'd hate to see you on the news.
And I'd hate to see your sisters and brother turn their backs.
Guys, I'm out of here. It's been a wonderful place. But if you can't stand for all of us, some who aren't as good, than I can't stand up for you guys. Who BTW, aren't as good, but have great hearts. _  I don't mean it like that.  I mean that somene is always better._
No offense, and many hugs.
Cindy


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## Icon72 (Oct 1, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Ok, I see your point.
> I'm gonna sleep on this. I see both sides. I really do.


 
Sounds good. At the same time if the situation truly is about brides that received perfectly fine yet average photos thinking they were getting the caliber of work that Visons In White offers, then yes, this guy should be defended and supported in any way possible.


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## elsaspet (Oct 1, 2007)

Icon,
I swear I'm outta here. LOL, after this post.
I love the brides.  I do.  And some of them don't have a lot of money.  I understand that.
But......
Don't send out news cameras to "uncover" that you've not cloned out a freaking light socket.  I saw the report.  That was what it was about.  That and overexposure.
Yes, there was a 'blip' about albums, but that wasn't the complaint.  It was about overexposure, light sockets, and depth of field.
It could happen to you or me or anyone.


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## Icon72 (Oct 1, 2007)

I understand completely and that is absolutely horrible. I apologize for digging so deep and possibly upsetting you further but I like to explore all angles of a story or complaint. It can be a curse at times. I just don't understand why the news station would bother to support the story if what you described was the extent of the problems. It all seems so undeniably shallow.

Don't answer that, go to bed. I see your little green, "Online", light is still on.


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## JIP (Oct 1, 2007)

On a side note to all this I think this all needs to be a lesson to alot of the people here who come on and ask wht kind of pricing they should do.  I think you really need to consider what kind of time you intend on putting into a wedding including shooting editing album design and construction.  Tons of wedding photographers out there jump into wedding photography feet firs and don't consider the consequenses of getting in over their heads be it too much work for not enough money or your prices exceeding your skills.


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## wildmaven (Oct 2, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Guys, I'm out of here. It's been a wonderful place. But if you can't stand for all of us, some who aren't as good, than I can't stand up for you guys. Who BTW, aren't as good, but have great hearts. _I don't mean it like that. I mean that somene is always better._
> No offense, and many hugs.
> Cindy


 
I'm sorry you feel that way. There are so many of us who have benefited from your experience and talent and I see people saying so every day. Please don't let your anger for the news station cloud your feelings for the people of the forum. 

Perhaps if you explained what action you would like to take, more people might be willing to help. Sometimes it's easier to support something if there is a clear course of action. :heart: Personally, I have already emailed the reporter and expressed my concerns and questions about the story.

Marian


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## usayit (Oct 2, 2007)

I am sorry but I don't agree with you elsaspet.   

* There are packages that website for significantly more money.. we have no idea what these couples spent.
* As a business it is also their responsibility to set expectations correctly.  Obviously they did not.  If that quality for $550 was expected, the couple should have been notified and explained.  If information was purposely left out of their contracts/conversations, then it is a borderline scam because they denied the consumer all the information to make a choice to go to another photographer.
* BBB shows a record of unanswered complaints.  Also completely unacceptable.
* If a substitute photographers was expected, again.. the couple should have been explained of this fact.
* There is absolutely no excuse for undelivered albums.
* Usually, there is a discussion on what parts of the ceremony will be important to capture.  Missing the first dance is usually considered unacceptable.
* Completely loosing the wedding photos is also unacceptable.
* Eating a plate of food while the important parts of the wedding ceremony were in progress also unacceptable


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## usayit (Oct 2, 2007)

A little personal experience.

My wife and I had just graduated from college and purchased our first home.  As most couples in the early stages of their lives together, we were broke.  We managed to save up a less than $5k for our wedding TOTAL.  We did it through some very creative bargaining.  One MAJOR hitch to the whole process was our photographer.  Just a month or so before our wedding his studio experienced a complete loss due to a fire.  He called us up, explained the situation in FULL detail.  At this point, he was being as professional as possible in a time of crisis.  He explained that his services were EXTREMELY limited at this time.  He also gave us the opportunity to back out of the contract.  He set our expectations...

In the end, we stuck to him.... He borrowed equipment and agreed to shoot for a total of under $500.  The agreement was that he would process the rolls and turn them over to us.  At that point, we owned the negatives.  Yeh... it was unfinished (I did the rest of the footwork and created albums etc..) but the key was that all of the main parts of the ceremony/reception were covered and that our expectations were set correctly.

In the end... the money saved was used to enjoy during our honeymoon.

Low price packages on that photographer's website does mean less hours, less deliverables, and less "features" or "services".  It is still no excuse for undelivered promises, shotty work, and unprofessional practices.


Be careful of who you call Cheap!  We live in a world of people/families of all sorts of income levels.  What you call cheap can be expensive for some.  Not everyone can afford $15-25k for a wedding.  I am now earning very well these days.. I look back at my wedding and the last thing on my mind is "Cheap".  

If anything your comments shows us the ugly side of you Elsaspet.  I hope you are never in the poor house and experience what it is like to be considered "insignificant" part of our population.


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## jols (Oct 2, 2007)

read this thread with great interest ad WOW elsapet you really are mad are you not.

i know nothing about this story just what ive read here and he links.

so here goes ive looked at the website and i think his pics look perfectly acceptable.
just one concern as to why they have no received any photos a year after their wedding this is unacceptable.

but i really do not know much about the story to take any sides.

im in the uk and charge between 250 and 350 pounds
thats fro 40 6x4 and up to 24 10x8 all in an album and delivered within one month


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## wxnut (Oct 2, 2007)

The $550 price is for only 2 hours. That, IMO is not cheap.  If they paid $550 for the whole day, plus prints, that would be cheap.

Doug


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## wildmaven (Oct 2, 2007)

I think we all can understand elsaspet's frustration and anger. We've all had circumstances in our lives in which something so outrages us that we are ready to fight. Those emotions are extremely powerful and I'm sure we all want elsaspet to know that there are no hard feelings.

Elsaspet, whatever you choose is, of course, your decision. I just want you to understand that people's inability to join the cause is mostly, from what I can see here, the need to know more before doing so. This is one of the reasons I wrote to the reporter, asking him to clarify his position. Is this what you've done as well? 

If you do choose to leave this forum, we certainly will welcome you back at anytime, no questions asked.  

Marian


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## castrol (Oct 2, 2007)

This is exactly why I don't do weddings.

I would love to document someone's special day, but if it doesn't add up to 
exactly what THEY think it should be, you are screwed.

I feel bad for this guy.


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## Artograph (Oct 2, 2007)

The long and short of it is that when _you choose_ to do a TV show called...what did you say it was...."Bad Wedding Photographers"...  Hmmmm....anyone who chooses to do that show is just asking for it!!!  LOL!!!

;O)

(PS I haven't seen the show!!)


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## sabbath999 (Oct 2, 2007)

I have no information about the guy whatever, but by looking at his website, ANYBODY should have been able to tell the type of wedding pictures to expect.

$699? I charged $1000 20 years ago when I was shooting weddings simply for my time and a book of proofs.

I have no idea about the facts of the case, and I don't like the BBB problems... but... here is a BIG but... doing a "60 Minutes" on the fellow seems entirely out of line. 

If she isn't happy, she can sue him... not crucify him in public.


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## wildmaven (Oct 2, 2007)

Artograph said:


> The long and short of it is that when _you choose_ to do a TV show called...what did you say it was...."Bad Wedding Photographers"... Hmmmm....anyone who chooses to do that show is just asking for it!!! LOL!!!
> 
> ;O)
> 
> (PS I haven't seen the show!!)


 
The photographer didn't CHOOSE to go on the show. :er:


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## Greatwhite (Oct 2, 2007)

Wow....a very interesting thread....

Elsapet certainly is a talented photographer and puts out a very solid product, that is not an opinon, that is based on demonstrated performance.   HOWEVER, she has shown a serious prejudice to a demographic, and quite honestly it is very ugly in its level of intensity.

As for the show, I am not a fan of 'in your face' shows, but, now that the show is done and online, did any of you see it?  I did.

First, it is not an isolated couple complaining, it is at least 4 in one year, according to the show, and 18 complaints in 36mos according to the BBB of Dallas/Ft Worth.

Also, lets be honest as photographers, pro or amatuer, after 20yrs of expierience (as claimed on the website), would you really expect lens glare or seriously bad compositions on the pictures?  C'mon, as a teen using a 126 instamatic, I used to toss out images like that.

So, yes, I do think we have a 'bad wedding photog'....there has to be integrity in our professions, there has to be responsibility to clients, and peers alike.

Is this photog a 'bad person', probably not, but he does show to be lacking in integrity to his chosen business/profession.

Just my .02 worth.....


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## jstuedle (Oct 2, 2007)

Elsaspet, you do wonderful work. I admire your work and diligence. This whining by the bride is why I quit weddings over 30 years ago. I am friends with many, many wedding shooters, all top grade pro's. To a person, they all hate doing what they do because of whining brides. I know several up and comers with real talent that want to break into the biz and don't really have a clue.... yet. I respect you for what you do, but been there, done that. Bought the Tee-Shirt and ain't go'in back.


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## usayit (Oct 3, 2007)

The Harleys
- No album delivered

Natalie Dorsey
- Its been 1 year and never received an album

Jessica Milbrandt
- pictures lost

Katie Hogan
- No albums after numerous calls and changing cell numbers
- got album after a personal visit to the photographer's home.

Sheesh.. if this is your definition of whining brides.... 

Yeh.. I know there are those bridzilla's out there that will never be happy, but I would NOT classify these 4 in that category.


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## usayit (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh BTW... WHOIS on that domain

  Domain Name: PICTUREPERFECTMOMENT.NET
   Registrar: TUCOWS INC.
   Whois Server: whois.tucows.com
   Referral URL: http://domainhelp.opensrs.net
   Name Server: NS2.POWWEB.COM
   Name Server: NS3.POWWEB.COM
   Status: ok
   Updated Date: 09-apr-2007
   Creation Date: 05-apr-2005
   Expiration Date: 05-apr-2009

Hmmm. letsee... creation date of 2005...  A photog with 20 years of experience and he is just now getting a website with a portfolio?


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## sabbath999 (Oct 3, 2007)

Websites don't mean anything when it comes to a person's ability to take pictures.

The best photographer in our area, by FAR, doesn't have a website. His work is the kind most people dream about doing... far, far beyond 99 percent of studio photographers.

He simply doesn't need one. He is booked solid and he charges triple the rates of everybody else. He is THAT good. (anybody in the Northeastern Missouri area will know instantly who I am talking about without me even mentioning his name).

For a lot of the older generations of photographers, advertising means placing 20x30's in the window... and the reason they don't change is because that still works.


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## castrol (Oct 3, 2007)

By reading this, it sounds like maybe a NEWS piece... one of those where the
reporter heads out with a camera to catch the offending person off guard and
asking them the "tough" questions. I don't think it is a TV show anyone signed 
up for. That is just a guess though.


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## AprilRamone (Oct 3, 2007)

Greatwhite said:


> did any of you see it?  I did.



Can you please post a link to where it is online?


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## Greatwhite (Oct 3, 2007)

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_270210929.html

This is where I watched it.....the video is just to the left of the article...


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## AprilRamone (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks for posting that Garrett.

Honestly, you can never really trust what's presented in a local news story because there's always going to be some angle that they are trying to get.  But, as I watched it, I felt that these couples obviously had some sort of expectations that weren't met.  I got the feeling that their issues mostly stemmed from bad business practices and then they added on to their complaints from that.   Like they were pissed about not having albums given in a decent timeframe and then added in the stuff about electrical cords showing or glares.  
But we don't know to what extent he promised he would deliver.  So it's hard to automatically jump in to his defense.  If it were only glares and cords showing and no complaints about his customer service it would be easier to swallow for me.  

But, I'm an optimist and I don't think he has to let this ruin the business.  It  should give him a chance to reconcile the complaints he has received and hopefully in the future he can figure out a way to keep his customers happy.  

And, on the subject of the BBB, if your business receives a complaint, do they notify you?


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## BEvaristo (Oct 3, 2007)

AprilRamone said:


> And, on the subject of the BBB, if your business receives a complaint, do they notify you?



Yes, I work for a large company and handle some of the BBB complaints we get from time to time.  Once it is received, they get your primary business location address (Headquarters or Owner listed on Business License) and send you notification.  You have a certain amount of time, usually about 30 days, to respond to the complaint.  Your response is then sent to the person that originally filed the complaint and they have a chance to respond.  There are times that we can't satisfy the person completely and let the BBB know what attempts we have made but were unsuccessful in an amicable resolution, and they put that in the file and close out the complaint.  There are no penalties for not responding, other than putting blemishes on your company's history, which in the long run can be more harmful than a simple penalty.  Participation in the BBB is not mandatory, but again, having a clean record, or at least resolving past complaints, can only help you in the long run.


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## Big Mike (Oct 3, 2007)

I just watched it...and I can see both sides.  On one hand, the business owners don't seem to be doing a good job, if they are not responding to customer's calls.  Sending another photographer isn't a crime but it would be good form to let the couple know that.  They also seem to be taking a long time to deliver the products...but that is something that should be figured out before hand...and the news story left that out.  

On the other hand, several of the complaints were about the quality of the shots.  From what I could tell...there were some problems...but they were not terrible.  Part of the problem, I'm sure, is that the brides were expecting shots like they see in magazines, but they think that $1000 (or whatever) is a really high fee to pay.  If they had hired a photographer based on more on reputation and portfolio, than on price...they probably wouldn't have this problem.  It seems a little harsh for this situation but; you get what you pay for.

And of course, there is the news reporting.  These small time news people want to think that they are Geraldo or that they are on 20-20....so they hype it up and sensationalize it.


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## jols (Oct 3, 2007)

sabbath999 said:


> $699? I charged $1000 20 years ago when I was shooting weddings simply for my time and a book of proofs.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## AprilRamone (Oct 3, 2007)

BEvaristo said:


> Participation in the BBB is not mandatory, but again, having a clean record, or at least resolving past complaints, can only help you in the long run.



It sounds like you don't really get a choice to participate in the BBB if a customer takes it to them.  If you just mean that you don't have to participate by responding then I get what you are saying.  But, in my opinion, having your business listed on there and having unresolved complaints is still sort of like being forced to participate.  I doubt you can just ask them to take you off of there completely when you have a complaint


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## BEvaristo (Oct 3, 2007)

AprilRamone said:


> It sounds like you don't really get a choice to participate in the BBB if a customer takes it to them.  If you just mean that you don't have to participate by responding then I get what you are saying.  But, in my opinion, having your business listed on there and having unresolved complaints is still sort of like being forced to participate.  I doubt you can just ask them to take you off of there completely when you have a complaint



That's correct.  You can choose not to respond but if you value your business at all, you are forced to participate in their dispute resolution.


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## Chris of Arabia (Oct 3, 2007)

Presumably you get a choice as to whether your business is listed on the BBB?


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## sabbath999 (Oct 3, 2007)

I don't do weddings any more, nor any commercial work at all at this present time. Wedding photography prices have not changed much over the years, compared to other things... which makes them a pretty darned good bargain for the consumer these days.


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## spmonkey2 (Oct 16, 2007)

Hello I found this board when I was doing some research on the company. I can speak first hand that the quality was not bad. Yes you get what you paid for. Now the problem to me isnt the quality it is the fact the product has not been delivered as promised. They keep giving me and my wife excuses for why our photos are not ready. I just want my pictures right now quality is not the issue. Im pretty sure each of yall actually provide what was promised and paid for. As for the Criners they have not. It upsets me also to look at their page and see people are still using them.


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## el_shorty (Oct 16, 2007)

It seems that there are more complaints about undelivered photos, http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_288225159.html


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## nossie (Oct 17, 2007)

The question I wanted answered is did he promise photos?  My sister&#8217;s budget wedding in Vegas resulted in her being handed 2 rolls of film, apparently she claimed that she paid for prints and so she got 7 x 5s an hour later.  Her fault for not caring over the specific details of what she&#8217;s paying for.  
So did these people make assumptions that they would receive an Album and prints or did they explicitly order Albums and prints etc?   
Having seen this second report it&#8217;s getting more and more dubious that the guy has an attitude.  http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_288225159.html

Finally I think that if he&#8217;s in the clear then the law will vindicate him and the news channel won&#8217;t be let away with their claims and nor the brides.

Anyway having read this whole thread and seen the Bridezilla TV show.  I think I&#8217;ll be writing a thorough contract before I ever do any wedding and _force majeure_ will be a big part of it but that&#8217;s for another thread.

SPMonkey &#8211; tell us more of your experience, what did you order versus what do you think you ordered?  Do you have a contract that states you will get X,Y&Z in 30 days?  The product that you say was not delivered was it explicit that it would be? I want to be sure that there were no assumptions made on the client&#8217;s side, even if ambiguity was the fault of the photographer.

Ray.


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## raider (Oct 19, 2007)

GOOD!  get rid of all the guys with cameras (gwacs).  These people just get in the way of real professionals.  It's hard to convey to bridal consumers that the lowest price may hurt you.  I've seen this at a wedding I was hired to videotape a while back - the photographer's business cards were cut out with scissors and had a clip art rose on it.  The pics were awful - I asked the bride if these were the pics from the disposables put out on the tables, but no, they were the photographer's.  The news piece did him a favor - time that people start telling others the truth - find another job that you may actually be good at.  I see it here all the time.  "I'm just starting - should I buy a second camera or a home computer to edit pictures" -- great, then they get slammed in a 5 minute news piece spotlighting your "business".  Sometimes people are way too nice.

and yes I'm bitter, I'm in Iraq - leave me alone.


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## THORHAMMER (Oct 19, 2007)

Have a contract , spell everything out well. 
Indicate that weather / timeframe etc will have some bearing on the 
photos , but then strive to do your best. 

Indicate the timeline to process the pictures and exactly what
package they are getting in the contract. 

Also having them sign a clause that as long as your pictures are 
indicative of whats in your portfolio, and you deliver on time they cannot sue you for any damages whatsoever relating to the pictures.

If they do not want to sign that clause then you have to 
wonder if this is a sue-happy bridezilla. If you charging 
5K and up its prob a good idea to go for it, if its only 1-2K and they dont want to sign, then just let them go.


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## raider (Oct 19, 2007)

good point - the contract issue - if it was a breach of contract, there's no case, he's at fault.


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## emogirl (Oct 20, 2007)

well, this is certainly a hot ball of wax....
I never saw the show, but listening to all arguments here, I say there is no excuse, whatever your fee, to provide poor customer service...sending a differnt tog without telling, being late on picture delivery etc....

On the other hand, you get what you paid for!!!  We cant make gorgeous happen when it wasnt there to begin with....yes, cheap brides!!! I totally get, cindy, what you are saying!!!  


 I wrote a 'too bad, so sad' clause into my wedding contract after a bride complained how terrible things looked in her 'legion, brown panelling walls, cheesey streamers and dollar store flowers" wedding...i had explained to them when they booked, dont expect to take your pictures there if it rains...absolutely nightmare location...no amount of pretty lighting could save this locale...guess what? it did rain, we did the pics in the ****ty location and they turned out like ****, just like i told her they would. The pictures at the house before hand were lovely....though she complained she looked fat, well she was....  

Anywya, since that fiasco, i wrote it in to my contract, that if you choose a really bad location for pictures and I tell you its gonna be bad, then dont come to me complaining..."too bad, so sad' clause... ha ha

People understand now!
Elsapet...i hope it doesnt mean you are leaving the forum altogher...we love having you here. 
cheers!


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## THORHAMMER (Oct 20, 2007)

i don't think shes leaving after all, she must have gone through her posts and retracted the threat, its gone now as far as I can see. 

We all get fired up about stuff, but gheesh think twice before you go onto a rant threatening to leave unless we give money to some guy we've never met nonetheless an unsubstantiated story as well as having a crappy history of customer complaints too........

It doesn't sit well with me...


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