# Number of LEDs in a lamp needed for portraiture



## OutInLanark (Dec 20, 2020)

Has LED technology reached the point where it can replace flash? I tried this from Amazon with what they say has 180 beads, which to the eye looked very bright but needed a very long shutter. I'm wondering if 1320 LEDs such as this light would come close to what is needed for portraiture.


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## Tropicalmemories (Dec 20, 2020)

My view is that LED lighting is very different to flash in practice.  I use a reasonably powerful Viltrox LED panel plus a cheap LED ring-light that I shine through a white umbrella.  I find this arrangement easier to use than my off-camera flash as I can see the effect of the lighting 'real time' in the evf of my Fuji X-T2.

But ..... it's a very different user experience compared to flash.  If I turn up the power of the Viltrox enough to use a narrower aperture to give a wider depth of field, then the constant bright light is annoying and glaring for my 'model'/wife.  So I use LED for wide open, narrow DOF portraits - using my 56mm f1.2 or 35 and 23 f1.4 prime lenses, with the power dialed down.

If I want to use a zoom, and/or f5.6-f8 for a wider DOF - then I'll use off-camera flash.

I see some of the Rotolight LEDs can work like a flash - but then you may as well use flash.  LED has faster 'recycle', but they are much bigger than flash.

I do prefer LED for ease of use - especially if I want to balance color temp to natural or incandescent light, and of course for video, but for many uses flash is still better - and it's not a case of numbers of LED bulbs or output.

Viltrox LED



 

2×LED f1.4


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## petrochemist (Dec 20, 2020)

OutInLanark said:


> Has LED technology reached the point where it can replace flash? I tried this from Amazon with what they say has 180 beads, which to the eye looked very bright but needed a very long shutter. I'm wondering if 1320 LEDs such as this light would come close to what is needed for portraiture.


It depends very much on the LEDs
I have an ultra bright tactical torch that has IIRC 6 LEDs It's easily bright enough for portraits, but gives a very harsh light & in no way compares to flash.


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## OutInLanark (Dec 20, 2020)

Your comment about Rotolights makes sense, also the LED flashes that I have seen on Henrys cost in the neighborhood of $500-$1000 each, other than the inexpensive on-camera models. I am, however, quite anxious to try LED panel lighting, as soon as there is something available with powerful-enough light. Re Viltrox, do you use modifiers, other than white filters? Some of the advertised large LED panels come with attached barn doors and I wonder how accurately you can concentrate the light - I'm a fan of low key, generally dark with light concentrated on the face. Re harsh light, some of the more costly models say they can be adjusted not only for power but for temperature, as well -- would this provide control over the harshness?


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## Tropicalmemories (Dec 20, 2020)

OutInLanark said:


> Your comment about Rotolights makes sense, also the LED flashes that I have seen on Henrys cost in the neighborhood of $500-$1000 each, other than the inexpensive on-camera models. I am, however, quite anxious to try LED panel lighting, as soon as there is something available with powerful-enough light. Re Viltrox, do you use modifiers, other than white filters? Some of the advertised large LED panels come with attached barn doors and I wonder how accurately you can concentrate the light - I'm a fan of low key, generally dark with light concentrated on the face. Re harsh light, some of the more costly models say they can be adjusted not only for power but for temperature, as well -- would this provide control over the harshness?



My Viltrox has a white modifier that attaches with magnets, and it's effective at sofening the light.  It also has adjustable color temperature, though this changes the tone rather than the harshness.  It has 4 barn doors too - but the light from the LEDs is less directional than conventional spots or flash, so the barn doors are not very effective.

As it's a panel rather than a small flash head, it's a softer light anyway, so with the modifier in place it's ideal for portraits, except for the glare issue when on full power.  What I do now is keep it on low power while getting everything set up, then turn up the power to take the shots.


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## JBPhotog (Dec 21, 2020)

FWIW, if you are stuck on a constant light I’d pass on the LED panel lights, they are just too limiting. Adding a modifier to a panel light is a pain and most of them don’t produce enough light once they are behind a silk or scrim.

For the same money go with a Godox SL60W, single LED that has a built in Bowen’s mount so adding a softbox, octa, “parabolic” softbox, metal reflector, umbrella,  . . .  well you get the idea, is infinitely more versatile. Remembering of course, the size of the modifier relative to the subject dictates softness of the light. There is no real need to adjust colour temp, that can all be done with gels. Check out the reviews on this model.


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## mrca (Dec 22, 2020)

Einsteins have a 250 watt modeling light.  You can use it through a softbox but just crank the iso.  You would have to do that with the LED  but with the einstein, you can pop the strobe as well.


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## JBPhotog (Dec 22, 2020)

mrca said:


> Einsteins have a 250 watt modeling light.  You can use it through a softbox but just crank the iso.  You would have to do that with the LED  but with the einstein, you can pop the strobe as well.



Agreed however, a 250 watt tungsten model lamp is @ equivalent to a 38w L.E.D. Video COB L.E.D.'s are significantly brighter and typically 5600K whereas the tungsten 250w is 3200k but that WB may work better for you, YMMV.

FWIW, I bought a few Godox SL150W II on the recent Black Friday sale and holy moly are they bright. At 1 meter, ISO100 @1/100 = f16 with the included reflector.


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## John Fantastic (Dec 23, 2020)

OutInLanark said:


> Has LED technology reached the point where it can replace flash? I tried this from Amazon with what they say has 180 beads, which to the eye looked very bright but needed a very long shutter. I'm wondering if 1320 LEDs such as this light would come close to what is needed for portraiture.



Hello OutInLanark, I have been using the Innovatronix CPFlash 550W for the last 4 months and I have nothing but praises for the product. Its a Tri-function Flash and works with your IL Cameras, Smartphones and your VideoCam. It is a very powerful flash . It gives a short burst of 550W High intensity LED light. In terms of performance it is comparable to my Canon 580 EX speedlight or a Nikon SB900 or Godox/Yongnou Equivalent Speedlight. More than enough power to use with your softboxes and other lighting modifiers. It is also very small and compact and similar in size to your Speedlight. 

I created a thread discussing how I am currently using it. 

TUTORIAL:OFF CAMERA EXTERNAL FLASH USING SMARTPHONES

Here are some of my most recent outputs with it. 




This one used 2 CPFlash 550W on the left it was used as a snoot at 100% power. On the right it was mounted in a softbox with power at 30%.

Here is a shot taken in broad daylight inside a barn. Again I used 2 CPFlash 550W here. A blue gel (supplied) was placed in the main light at 50% power I think and another one was placed inside a hollow kerosene lamp at 15% power. 





I have many picture examples in my thread.


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## mrca (Dec 23, 2020)

Speed lights are about 80 ws, a far cry from the 640 ws Einsteins that cost about the same as a canon or nikon speedlight.  I look at them as "toys" compared to what an Einstein can do.  The nose shadow on the lady in yellow is extremely hard.  Could be from distance to her from the softbox as well.  A speed light would struggle to give me enough power in a 5 or 7' octa.  Now I'm not surprised LED's have a potential for more power, I have a pair of led headlamps in my Jeep and  with high beams, the light bouncing back from a stop sign 4 or 5 blocks away is blinding.  On low beam they light up from the middle of the front yard of a residential street to the middle of the other side.  For me with terrible low light vision, they are amazing.   Almost as good as driving in daylight.   But if photo LED's are only 80 ws equivalent, they are marginal performers.   There is a huge array of soft boxes and octas for Einsteins, but is there for led's?     Now when I want continuous and hard, I go to fresnel hotlights.   I don't have soft boxes for them so for kids or pets that I don't want a flash popping, I gang a couple through a 6'6"  scrim for a big soft light.  I guess you could do the same with Led's.


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## JBPhotog (Dec 23, 2020)

I'd also add that typically L.E.D. panels are for run and gun or NGO interviews rather than proper beauty lighting. If you must have continuous light, get something that can take a light modifier with either a Bowens mount or the like.


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## photoflyer (Dec 25, 2020)

I have very little experience with external lighting.  For what I do I prefer not to use it.  But, I do have a couple of the Lume Cube 2.0s that I keep on mini tripods so I can position them as needed.  Yes, this setup is very very simplistic, but, the improvement in high ISO performance on new cameras is astounding.   I have no problem shooting at 25600 on the R6.  In fact I was reviewing a few shots recently and could not recall the ISO setting.  What I thought might have been 1600 or 3200 was actually 16000 in one case and 20000 in the other.  

My point, high ISO performance and excellent dynamic range in new cameras means you can get good results with lower intensity external lighting.  Of course for eye popping results there is no substitute for more light.


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## mrca (Dec 25, 2020)

photoflyer, intensity/ratio is just one of the 4 characteristics of light that can be controlled when you bring lights "available" to you to the party.   In many if not most cases, existing light can be improved by tweaking the direction, diffusion, intensity/ratio and color of the light in the scene.   Yes, there are some situations where ambient is great or the subject can be moved to good light or positioned to better use ambient,  but having the ability to control light allows you to use backgrounds not otherwise useable, to control bg brightness,  to place complimentary shadows/highlights on the subject.   We work in light so learning to harness it will make us better photographers.   Having the option to go with ambient, to modify it or replace it gives all kinds of options.  You are right, high iso capability of modern digital lets us photo in low light, but low light isn't necessarily good light.     It is often too hard or from a bad direction or has inappropriate ratios or is the wrong balance with the background.  Having control allows you to create your style, your interpretation of a scene/shot, not just take the shot everyone takes, make the shot as you envision it.


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## photoflyer (Dec 25, 2020)

Agreed.  I have great respect for those who have mastered this aspect of the art form.  One can only take on so many challenges and so far I have had to settle for a simple and incomplete approach.





mrca said:


> photoflyer, intensity/ratio is just one of the 4 characteristics of light that can be controlled when you bring lights "available" to you to the party.   In many if not most cases, existing light can be improved by tweaking the direction, diffusion, intensity/ratio and color of the light in the scene.   Yes, there are some situations where ambient is great or the subject can be moved to good light or positioned to better use ambient,  but having the ability to control light allows you to use backgrounds not otherwise useable, to control bg brightness,  to place complimentary shadows/highlights on the subject.   We work in light so learning to harness it will make us better photographers.   Having the option to go with ambient, to modify it or replace it gives all kinds of options.  You are right, high iso capability of modern digital lets us photo in low light, but low light isn't necessarily good light.     It is often too hard or from a bad direction or has inappropriate ratios or is the wrong balance with the background.  Having control allows you to create your style, your interpretation of a scene/shot, not just take the shot everyone takes, make the shot as you envision it.



Sent from my motorola one action using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app


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## mrca (Dec 25, 2020)

Photoflyer, like so many other pursuits, this is one that takes the classic 10,000 hours.  With what you are using, you can make great images.  Master it and I would recommend a 5 in one reflector that includes white, silver, black and gold and a translucent center.  If you are learning portrait lighting, the book Portrait by tim meyer, who was an instructor at one of the best photo schools in the nation, Brooks. Learn those concepts and you will make fantastic portraits with minimal gear.  It's about the knowledge, not the gear.   You can learn to find a "free' reflector from the side of a white building or truck or white sand beach.  You get a free kicker from the sun 45 degrees behind your subject and pull in that reflector and you can make gorgeous shots.   If you have any questions, there are plenty of folks here who want to give back and help people learning the craft.  We all started at square one and we all learned from others.  To this day I thank a guy who helped me and when I teach subtractive lighting, think the black reflector panel or a tree trunk or dark building,  I think of him and credit him for teaching me to think outside the box to subtract light rather than add it.  Enjoy the journey, it is one you will never finish because there is always more to learn.  But the more you learn, the more you find your style and your vision and make images that are unique to you.   I have a portfolio full of portraits that have never been made before.  Don't let anyone tell you everything has been photoed, it hasn't.


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