# Making $ From Trade Shoot?



## DGMPhotography (Jul 28, 2019)

Hello! 

So I've been doing a bit more TF boudoir work lately, and I'm not sure of the best way to share this work.

I decided to only use Instagram as my social network for my new brand. This leaves me with the issue of not being able to easily share full albums from shoots (which I'd normally do on Facebook). I chose to not use Facebook because the main reason I have Facebook pages is so that I'm able to share the posts/photos to my personal account and leverage my personal connections. But, I don't plan to share boudoir work that way. Plus, I already have three pages. It's almost too much as it is. I also don't have a website for this type of work yet, and I'm not sure if I will since it's not the main focus of my work (I do plan to add bridal boudoir to my main site at some point).

Of course, I'm only sharing if the model is okay with it, but even when they're okay with me posting, not all of them want me to tag them in the photos. 

So, one thought that crossed my mind, is to use Patreon, and have a private gallery using a third party site, or as a secret page on one of my other sites, and only give access to people who have "pledged" on Patreon. It's a popular monetization/content regulation model with this type of content, but, I'm not sure how people typically handle it. As the photo taker, I know I have the copyright, which my contract stipulates, but from an ethical standpoint, should I be using their pictures in this paywall model? What about shoots where the client pays me? Or should I pay them? 

One idea I had is to give the model a limited license to also use them for their own Patreons accounts (or similar paywall systems) so even if they don't, I still feel like it's fair since they have the option to, and I'm not the only one able to make money from a creative collaboration.

Another idea is to just not share full albums at all, and post just my favorites on Instagram, but that seems like such a waste. I'm so accustomed to "check out the rest on Facebook!" in my Instagram captions... So I'm at a loss.

Thoughts?


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## DanOstergren (Jul 28, 2019)

I think that if you're doing these TF shoots specifically with models, and they're signing a model release that is perfectly clear about how you plan to use their photos and also allowing them the same opportunity to make money on their own (meaning you don't pay royalties to them on your sales but they have the ability to make their own sales with said images separately), ethically and legally you should be fine.


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## tirediron (Jul 29, 2019)

Assuming everything is declared and agreed upon up front, like Dan, I don't see an ethical issue.  What I do see is a "Why" issue; as in:  "Why the hell would I pay to follow you?"  Not meaning you specifically, but having just spent 20 minutes reading all about this Patreon, it occurs to me that in about 99.9999% of cases the ONLY ones making any money off of this are going to be the shareholders of Patreon.  I can see where someone like Annie Leibovitz might make a go of it, but for the average shutter monkey or other creative?  Seems like a waste of time to me. 

I'm curious as to why you want such a separation between this and your other work?  I can see separating say, landscape and boudoir, but wedding, bridal boudoir, boudoir, and female fashion work?  It's all related IMO...


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 29, 2019)

tirediron said:


> Assuming everything is declared and agreed upon up front, like Dan, I don't see an ethical issue.  What I do see is a "Why" issue; as in:  "Why the hell would I pay to follow you?"  Not meaning you specifically, but having just spent 20 minutes reading all about this Patreon, it occurs to me that in about 99.9999% of cases the ONLY ones making any money off of this are going to be the shareholders of Patreon.  I can see where someone like Annie Leibovitz might make a go of it, but for the average shutter monkey or other creative?  Seems like a waste of time to me.
> 
> I'm curious as to why you want such a separation between this and your other work?  I can see separating say, landscape and boudoir, but wedding, bridal boudoir, boudoir, and female fashion work?  It's all related IMO...



Haha, it's just how it is. Patreon and sites like it are the king of content monetization. People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow. And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.

I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.


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## tirediron (Jul 29, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> ...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.


That makes it sound an awful lot like a porn feed...



DGMPhotography said:


> ... And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.


Okay...  supporters are great, but how much do you get out of their support dollar?  I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand.  It seems to me that if people are willing to support you in a monetary fashion, there should be better ways to exploit it rather than losing [I assume] a significant portion off the top to this "service".



DGMPhotography said:


> ...I do plan to integrate bridal boudoir into my wedding work at some point (which is why I'm practicing now), but in general, at least in my circles, it's interpreted differently. I posted ONE classy boudoir photo on my main account and next thing you know my mom is calling me saying she can't believe I'm getting girls naked; all these guys message me with thirst comments; and other conservative people forming impressions of me that I just don't care to foster. I don't care what people think of me, but I do care about how it impacts my business. So at least for right now, I'm avoiding it and just using my boudoir Instagram account.


It sounds to me like you're travelling in the wrong circles.  Okay, Mom..  Mom's Mom and you can't change that.  Everyone else?  You need to get away from all of that.  The line between boudoir and porn can be a very fine one, and you need to ensure that your clients know on which side of that you fall. 

To be taken seriously as a boudoir photographer, especially a male boudoir photographer you have to be absolutely above reproach.  You don't want anyone around you that is going to make comments that might in any way be construed as offensive to your models.  I also think you need to decide on a course and stay on it.  Adding to a product line is fine, but having a multitude of product lines under different brands is not a recipe for success.  What you [should] want is for people to recognize your name as a skilled photographer and to commission YOU based on their knowledge of YOUR work.  Hiding behind a bunch of different brands isn't, IMO, the way to go.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 29, 2019)

tirediron said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > ...People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow.
> ...



People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right? 

As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that. 

Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it. 

I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 29, 2019)

If photography is done in trade usually the photographer would be able to use the photos in a portfolio and the client would be provided with photos without being charged. What you can do beyond that is going to depend on the contracts and what's specified as far as usage (specific use, for how long, etc.).

I've been on Patreon before to see what it was, and I don't get why people would just give people money that's not for charity and isn't paying for a product received or a service provided. If $100 a month makes a difference that doesn't seem like much if this is needed income. Out of that 12 thousand a year, how much of that comes out for taxes, health insurance, social security or other retirement, etc.? 

I was wondering too why you couldn't put boudoir photography on your other photography pages, etc. If people know you as a photographer eventually it's likely it will turn up somewhere on social media etc. and I think it's going to be hard to try to keep friends and family or prospective clients from seeing it.

I've been a photographer a long time, and people that know me know I'm a photographer. They know I've done sports/events; they may have seen that I'm doing art photography these days. I just don't get needing to separate it, or doing something you can't show or tell people about. 

I don't get what you mean by art being meant to be seen, especially since you don't want people you know to necessarily see it. Then you talk about photography from a business standpoint... I'm confused as to what you're trying to do. Photographers might do paid work and still do artwork on their own, it's not like you can't do both, but art probably isn't going to pay the bills for most people. I get wanting to do something creative, but I don't get needing to make money from it but then keep people from finding out what you're doing. I don't know how long you can keep up that pretense.


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## tirediron (Jul 29, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> ...I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right?


So you're shooting porn.  Okay... fair enough, that's a revenue stream (and doubtless a lucrative one for some), but real clients, who will pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for a high-end boudoir session aren't going to touch you with a barge pole.  



DGMPhotography said:


> As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year. I know a girl who does boudoir and artistic nude modeling and is making $2000 a month by keeping it behind a paywall. I'm not saying I like it, but it seems foolish to not capitalize on that.
> 
> Everything else, I agree with you, but the internet makes that difficult. If something of mine is posted publicly, I can't necessarily control who does or doesn't see it.
> 
> I wish I did only have one brand, and that I only liked one type of photography. That would make things so much easier. But my interests are too varied. I want to make so many different things, and art is meant to be seen. But from a business standpoint, I have to separate the types of work from each other so I get hired. It's hard work, but I think it actually is a recipe for success, at least for me personally. However, my main priority is my wedding work. So whenever I'm busy with that, everything else takes a back seat. But when I'm not booked, I still want to create, and that's where the other brands come in.


Hey, if it works for you, it works for you, but I honestly think you're making life a LOT harder for yourself than it needs to be.  Have you had any business training?  Entrepreneurial workshops?  If not, I would strongly recommend you consider it.


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## medic001918 (Jul 29, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> As for the support portion.. I know it's not much, but as much as we may scoff at it, the model works. It's part of the crowdfunding economy. $1 won't make a huge difference, but if 100 people pledge $1 a month to you, that's big. That's $12,000 in a year.



Your math is off. 100 people x $1 is $100.

$100 x 12 months is $1,200. It’s not $12,000. So to really make it a revenue stream you need a lot of followers at $1/month. You’d need $10/month at 100 followers to get $12,000/year. And that’s assuming you can retain those followers.


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## Derrel (Jul 29, 2019)

Patreon is a new revenue source. Many people are not familiar with it


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 29, 2019)

That's right, it _is_ only $1200... I don't know if it's worth the time and trouble spent on a website to bring in that amount of income.

I've seen Patreon... giving people money doesn't make someone an art patron, I think those using the site to do that are misguided or deluding themselves. I guess if people want to give you money, so be it, but then do you have to list that as income? and pay taxes on it?? If not for now I'd think the IRS will catch up to that site one of these days.

I don't know if what you're doing is boudoir or not but it seems like something you're not exactly proud of doing. I've wondered along the same lines about training in business and marketing etc. I remember you being in school but don't seem to have worked much in whatever field you studied. If you wanted to switch gears and make a living in photography that's challenging to say the least. 

I don't know if you have a business plan, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to figure out how to do photography paired with another type job or work as your photography business builds. It doesn't sound like boudoir may be the best way to go if it's problematic with friends and family or prospective clients will not consider hiring you as a photographer because of it.


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## Derrel (Jul 29, 2019)

vintagesnaps said:


> That's right, it _is_ only $1200... I don't know if it's worth the time and trouble spent on a website to bring in that amount of income.
> 
> I've seen Patreon... giving people money doesn't make someone an art patron, I think those using the site to do that are misguided or deluding themselves. I guess if people want to give you money, so be it, but then do you have to list that as income? and pay taxes on it?? If not for now I'd think the IRS will catch up to that site one of these days.
> 
> ...


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## Derrel (Jul 30, 2019)

A quick bit of math shows that 350 people at seven dollars a month is $29,400 per year.

I really do not think that one dollar per month is worth going after at low numbers of subscribers.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

Woo boy, a lot to unpack here. 

First off, I don't shoot _porn_. I know you probably didn't mean that literally, John, but I don't think that's cool to say, regardless. 


 

It's boudoir, and my intention has always been artistic. That said, maybe I am just insecure about it. I agree that I sound a bit hypocritical in saying that art should be seen, but I don't want it to be seen by my peers. I should be proud to show this work, but I am worried that my peers will just see lingerie, and decide that I am a pervert. For people who aren't involved in the arts, or don't understand the culture, then I can see why they may think that. What's wrong with trying to limit that from happening? 

I got my bachelor's degree in business, but no amount of courses or reading are going to make for a successful business. I think you have to find what works for you and your specific market. I think aside from a small number of people, you can't reliably make a living doing just one thing in photography anymore. To pay the bills, you've gotta take those headshots, product photos, etc. The reason I have several brands and websites is so that I can appeal to different markets and try to maximize my profits doing the thing I love - photography. My main focus is weddings, because in my experience, it pays the best, but I still take a large variety of work. Same reason I am doing video now as well. 

"Jack of all trades, master of none" is a phrase you've probably heard. But the full saying is actually "Jack of all trades, master of none, but often times better than master of one."

This discussion has gone a bit off the rails, but I do appreciate everyone's input. You've given me some things to think about. I'll probably hold off on Patreon for now and reevaluate all of this. Thank you.


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## tirediron (Jul 30, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> Woo boy, a lot to unpack here.
> 
> First off, I don't shoot _porn_. I know you probably didn't mean that literally, John, but I don't think that's cool to say, regardless.


  Sooooooooo....  you're shooting images that people are being aroused by and your approach is, "Well, might as well make a buck off it?"... ummm...  sorry Darryl, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..  I don't for a second think your intention is to create porn, but if you're going to take that approach, I honestly believe that it's going to hurt you. 



DGMPhotography said:


> It's boudoir, and my intention has always been artistic. That said, maybe I am just insecure about it. I agree that I sound a bit hypocritical in saying that art should be seen, but I don't want it to be seen by my peers. I should be proud to show this work, but I am worried that my peers will just see lingerie, and decide that I am a pervert. For people who aren't involved in the arts, or don't understand the culture, then I can see why they may think that. What's wrong with trying to limit that from happening?


 If this is, or you're worried about this happening, then these people are not your peers.  They may be associates, people you know, or even relatives, but they're not peers. 

I have to admit, I'm puzzled by all these comments about retaining anonymity.  Outside of a few photographers, almost none of whom I engage socially, my circle comprises primarily military & retired military folks, and people (almost exclusively male) from the trades, predominantly mechanics & HD mechanics.  In other words, NOT creatives.  They're aware of my work, and occasionally if one of them sees an image on my facebook feed they'll make a comment about an attractive female, but that's as far as it goes. 

Another side to this coin is your clients; it's not going to do your business a lot of good if people learn that you're not proud of your work.  The #1 thing you have to be as an entrepreneur, especially in a creative field is a shameless self-promoter.  "Hey, I'm Daryll... this is my work!"  If I were a female client for whom you'd done boudoir work and I find out you're trying to remain anonymous, I'm going to think there's something wrong with the work, and I'm hardly likely to recommend or use you again.



DGMPhotography said:


> I got my bachelor's degree in business, but no amount of courses or reading are going to make for a successful business.


 A BA in business is great if you want to work for a financial institution, insurance agent, etc.  It does virtually nothing to set you up as an entrepreneur.  Seriously, grab the Adult Ed catalogue from your local community college and see what you can find under small business management and entrepreneurship. 



DGMPhotography said:


> I think you have to find what works for you and your specific market. I think aside from a small number of people, you can't reliably make a living doing just one thing in photography anymore. To pay the bills, you've gotta take those headshots, product photos, etc.


  I agree; I'm fortunate to live in a small town where people generally tend to expect generalization.  I'm "the photographer"; I get calls for weddings, family work, headshots, events... name it.  If I lived in a major center, it might be different, but for me, where I live, the generalist approach is the only option.



DGMPhotography said:


> The reason I have several brands and websites is so that I can appeal to different markets and try to maximize my profits doing the thing I love - photography. My main focus is weddings, because in my experience, it pays the best, but I still take a large variety of work. Same reason I am doing video now as well.


On this, we disagree.  Why?  Let's say you've done a couple's wedding.  They're very happy with the work.  They also own a small business and want product photography done.  Because they know you as a wedding photographer and NOT as a generalist, are they going to call you?  Maybe, but in all probability they're going to look for a product photographer, and the one they choose might well not be you.  I think it's fine to divide your work up into categories, but you need to make sure it all comes back to you.  You want to people to think of your name when they need a photograph.  Full stop.



DGMPhotography said:


> This discussion has gone a bit off the rails....


True, but sometimes it helps to take a bit of a circuitous route.  I think  you're a good photographer, you've got passion, but I think you really, REALLY need to re-evaluate your business approach.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

tirediron said:


> Sooooooooo.... you're shooting images that people are being aroused by and your approach is, "Well, might as well make a buck off it?"... ummm... sorry Daryll, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. I don't for a second think your intention is to create porn, but if you're going to take that approach, I honestly believe that it's going to hurt you.



I'm simply trying to maximize my revenue streams. But I agree that it feels perhaps a little scummy in this case. And probably not worth the effort. Plus, I do have to consider what people would think if they found out I was going that route. The model is appealing, though. Having people "support" your creative work, enabling you to do it more.



tirediron said:


> If this is, or you're worried about this happening, then these people are not your peers. They may be associates, people you know, or even relatives, but they're not peers.
> 
> I have to admit, I'm puzzled by all these comments about retaining anonymity. Outside of a few photographers, almost none of whom I engage socially, my circle comprises primarily military & retired military folks, and people (almost exclusively male) from the trades, predominantly mechanics & HD mechanics. In other words, NOT creatives. They're aware of my work, and occasionally if one of them sees an image on my facebook feed they'll make a comment about an attractive female, but that's as far as it goes.
> 
> Another side to this coin is your clients; it's not going to do your business a lot of good if people learn that you're not proud of your work. The #1 thing you have to be as an entrepreneur, especially in a creative field is a shameless self-promoter. "Hey, I'm Daryll... this is my work!" If I were a female client for whom you'd done boudoir work and I find out you're trying to remain anonymous, I'm going to think there's something wrong with the work, and I'm hardly likely to recommend or use you again.



I have to disagree with this. I can't close myself off from people just because they don't appreciate or understand my work. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. And many of these people are important to me in other ways, but not my target market for boudoir. Many of the models I've worked with on boudoir actually prefer that I have a separate/anonymous account too. We have many of the same mutual friends, and some of these models don't want people to see this work either. For instance, one model said she's always wanted to do boudoir, but her family would kill her if they saw it. We are simply tailoring our content to our audience. 



tirediron said:


> On this, we disagree. Why? Let's say you've done a couple's wedding. They're very happy with the work. They also own a small business and want product photography done. Because they know you as a wedding photographer and NOT as a generalist, are they going to call you? Maybe, but in all probability they're going to look for a product photographer, and the one they choose might well not be you. I think it's fine to divide your work up into categories, but you need to make sure it all comes back to you. You want to people to think of your name when they need a photograph. Full stop.



I have had wedding clients reach out to me asking, "hey, do you also do real estate?" It may not be super common, but I think if you do a good job for them, even if they know you as a wedding photographer, many will still ask you anyway. With Richmond being such a competitive market, I have to specialize, or at least have the appearance that I do.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

I haven't read the responses before mine, but I would not share the full albums. Only share your favorites.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > DGMPhotography said:
> ...



Yes this is porn and this is unethical. You are capitalizing on women's bodies without their explicit consent. I would absolutely 100% not advise doing this. This speaks volumes about your view towards women and I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(


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## tirediron (Jul 30, 2019)

paigew said:


> .... I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(


In fairness Paige, I don't think there was ever any thought that Daryll would sell the images to a porn 'site, rather that he was postulating the idea of monetizing them on his own social media feeds to people who he knows are not looking at them to appreciate their artistic merits.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

paigew said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



You should read the thread before making a comment like that. And no one said ANYTHING about selling photos to a porn site. That's deplorable. I'm honestly stunned you have the audacity to make a comment like that about me without even reading the thread.

The whole point of this was to learn and explore the options for sharing this type of work. We were all having an open, professional discussion, and you instead skipped the context and decided to make a judgment against me. For what reason? Are you hoping to score some SJW points? Your laziness is not an excuse to blatantly make stuff up about me. I support women, and have always fought for their respect and empowerment.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

tirediron said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > .... I'm sure will be a huge turn off when clients find out you might sell a photo of them looking attractive/sexy to a porn site. My god. :*(
> ...



Oh, I get that. But it is still no  different. He specifically said that he knows people will pay to basically get off on photos he takes of his models. 




DGMPhotography said:


> You should read the thread before making a comment like that.



OMG I READ THE THREAD!!! EESH! You said you want to make money off sexy photos you took of your clients by posting them to shady websites where people from other countries pay money to get off on them. Without consent from said models. I'm wondering why you don't see the issue here? What if I took a getting ready bridal photo and posted it there, or a maternity photo...or a graduating seniors photo? It is not okay to post any image you think you might make a buck off (from a perv) to a site designed to do just that. Your clients trust you, TFP or not.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

I realize that your intent was not to bring harm (or pervs) to your models, but please take time to consider the point of a woman, a photographer at that, who often takes images like you are talking about...this is not okay and I do not think it will be in the best interest of your business.  I'm not sure how old you are, but I find that a younger man with no wife or daughter might have a hard time seeing how wrong this is and how it damages the trust your models and clients have in you. Maybe picture an image of yourself being sold to a similar site, and knowing that men from around the world were paying money to get off on an image of you...without your consent, that you were not profiting off of.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

paigew said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > paigew said:
> ...



You clearly did not read the thread. At what point did anyone say anything about shady websites? Patreon is not a shady website, and your impression of that points towards your ignorance more than anything.

The question I proposed was how to share boudoir work, and what the alternatives were. I also never said ANYTHING about doing this without consent. I specifically said "as long as they're okay with it." I mentioned it might be a matter of talking to the model about it, and giving them the same rights to do it as well. Additionally, I do have the copyrights, including right to sell if I wanted, to all photos, and that is expressed clearly in my contract which I go over with my models. As a courtesy I always give the model the option to review the photos and veto anything they don't like.

The comment about thirsty dudes from Guatemala was anecdotal. Like I said, a model friend of mine gave me those exact words. The whole reason I was considering this was because of what she told me. She said about 1/3 of her audience is people who appreciate and support her artwork. The other 2/3 are "thirsty dudes from Guatemala." She said that those dudes are gonna make comments about her anyway, so it was empowering to her to take their money through Patreon. At least that way, they have to pay her, and she turned what could be an otherwise negative, objectifying experience, into a revenue stream. It'd be stupid not to. So that's where this thread came in. I came here seeking advice and insight on doing the same thing, but as the photographer. And wondered if there was any difference between paid and TF work.

The way I said some things could have maybe been clearer, but I was playing the role of devil's advocate as I sought out answers. You don't know me, and I really don't appreciate you making comments like that about me.


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## Derrel (Jul 30, 2019)

I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.

I really do not think TF photos is the right way to go. If you want to shoot softcore boudoir, Then hire some models and pay them.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

Derrel said:


> I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.
> 
> I really do not think TF photos is the right way to go. If you want to shoot softcore boudoir, Then hire some models sand pay them.



From what I've learned from this discussion (from those who properly contributed), I would agree with you. 

I think if my goal was to make money off those photos, then I should be hiring models for the explicit reason of doing so. But, that's not really my goal, so I've concluded to just post my favorites from TF shoots on Instagram, and then just have a private portfolio for when people want to see the rest of my work. Again, the disconnect for me is that I'm used to always saying, "check out the rest of the photos on Facebook," so I was trying to find an alternative. The alternative, I believe, is just to not post them all.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > I really think you should be paying these models and create something more to the point. Patreon Has sort of become a softcore and boudoir Avenue, where people can pay a small amount per month for custom sets Of images which are not available to the general public.
> ...


This is great news.

In response to your other reply, you are correct, I do not know you and I tried not to be too rude in my reply to you. I understand you were looking to hear other viewpoints and I respect that from you. I just wanted my response to portray what a huge issue I think (most) women would have with this.  And not only a detriment to your photography business, but to photographers as a whole. We want our clients to trust us, fully   Also, you don't want some mad model to start a viral #metoo post about you LOL that would just not be good for biz 

edit to add after re-reading my original reply. I don't think I was very rude. And people before me DID comment on the porn-like content of the website, along with you yourself stating shady peeps might be visiting. I'm just giving you a straight up "devils advocate" opinion here....not trying to be rude or disrespectful.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

paigew said:


> This speaks volumes about your view towards women



What you said here is the issue. You are making assumptions about my view towards women. And I really don't think that's fair.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > This speaks volumes about your view towards women
> ...


Dude, I'm sorry....your thread suggests that you are taking boudoir photos (TFP) of women, and while you do have permission to share the images, you do not have explicit permission to sell the images to websites. Legally, I suppose you can do whatever you want because I'm sure your contract allows for use however you see fit. But ethically, I think you can see how this would be an issue or you would not have posted this thread.

Facts: You want to sell images of scantily clad women to websites of questionable character (without their explicit consent). Specifically to sell images that appeal to buyers who would be using them in inappropriate, most likely, sexual ways. How is this not wrong? How is this something that someone respectable would do? A respectable photographer would line up a TFP shoot detailing the exact usage of these images, and possibly negotiate pay with the model. The issue is the women think you are using the images for social media and blogging purposes. Using them any other way without their consent, considering the image content, is unethical, especially given the image content.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

paigew said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > paigew said:
> ...



Wow, you're really a piece of work. Twisting my words and everything. 

Again, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WITH THEIR CONSENT. I've said that multiple times. What about that is unclear?

And again, I'm NOT selling anything to any website. Patreon is a social network for content creators. 

And I already explained the reason for this thread. If you're just going to pick and choose things to take out of context, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.


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## paigew (Jul 30, 2019)

DGMPhotography said:


> So, one thought that crossed my mind, is* to use Patreon, and have a private gallery using a third party site, or as a secret page on one of my other sites, and only give access to people who have "pledged" on Patreon. I*t's a popular monetization/content regulation model with this type of content, but, I'm not sure how people typically handle it. *As the photo taker, I know I have the copyright, which my contract stipulates, but from an ethical standpoint, should I be using their pictures in this paywall model*? *What about shoots where the client pays me*? Or should I pay them?





DGMPhotography said:


> Haha, it's just how it is. Patreon and sites like it are the king of content monetization. *People would pay to see my photos because there are thirsty dudes from Guatemala with cash to blow*. And the other portion is people who actually really love and want to support my work. And that's not an exaggeration. A female influencer friend of mine told me exactly that.







DGMPhotography said:


> ..
> People are gonna think what they want to think about my work. To elaborate... *Despite it being tasteful boudoir, there are still people out there who are gonna get off from it. Maybe I'm too capitalistic, but I feel that if I'm going to have that reaction from those people regardless, I may as well monetize it, right? *



Look I am not one to judge. In fact, even right now, I am not judging you. I'm just trying to bring to light what your comments imply and how they might be/will be/are taken by people with different views than your own. Which I thought was your purpose of starting this post?

I have bolded your comments that I feel sound inappropriate coming from a professional photographer.

While you do say that you have consent to share the images, your words, that you yourself typed make it sound like the consent was/is not all encompassing. And that you understand there may be some ethical issues with doing this, in this manner.



DGMPhotography said:


> *From what I've learned from this discussion* (from those who properly contributed), I would agree with you.
> 
> *I think if my goal was to make money off those photos, then I should be hiring models for the explicit reason of doing so*. But, that's not really my goal, so I've concluded to just post my favorites from TF shoots on Instagram, and then just have a private portfolio for when people want to see the rest of my work. Again, the disconnect for me is that I'm used to always saying, "check out the rest of the photos on Facebook," so I was trying to find an alternative. The alternative, I believe, is just to not post them all.



Also this bolded comment implies that you previously thought it would be okay to use the images without explicitly outlining how the images would be used (being used for profit).  Forgive me if I got the wrong impression from your posts.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 30, 2019)

Seems like a fine line... and questionable at best doing what you're doing. I guess Patreon has changed since I last looked at it.

Making photos available 'out there' on Patreon, on social media, etc. of women in robes & lingerie, possibly nude or seminude where men overseas who want to look at those type pictures can find them is probably not what the models/subjects might expect you to do with their photos. At least it didn't sound to me that the subjects know, that the intent to do that was clear or in model releases. You've talked about trying to keep this discreet to put it mildly and have subjects who don't want their families to know. I wouldn't be surprised if their families end up finding out or seeing the photos, or if people in your world see what you don't want them to see or know that you're doing.

This hardly seems like good business practice. I wouldn't have realized you had a degree in business, I thought maybe it was in another field, and there was a good point made about workshops, courses, etc. Even with a degree I've taken countless workshops, read journal articles in my field, etc. - learning never ends. You don't seem to be using or seeing the value of your background in business to find resources or in developing a photography business.

I don't think what you're doing currently can be explained as art even if you're doing it in what you consider an artistic way, because it's for the subjects' personal use, it's not being done for any art purpose like submissions to juried exhibits, etc. 

It seems like you're shooting boudoir because you need the money. So maybe you need to figure out how you can make money without doing what seems to be demeaning to women in promoting your photography using intimate photos of them that they may not intend to be used in the way that you're doing. That's how to me it comes across anyway; you seem to be trying to justify doing something that you want to hide and certainly don't seem proud of.


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 30, 2019)

I, apparently, am not good at articulating my point.

I haven't and don't do boudoir for money. In fact, I usually spend money on these shoots. I don't think you can decide what art is and isn't. You don't have to submit your work to a museum to be considered art. 

I am always open and honest with the people I work with, and if I did do Patreon I would only do it if the model agreed to it explicitly. I am sorry if I was unclear on that. 

These are things I am ignorant on, so I came here seeking insight, not attack. For you to attack a person who is seeking to inform themselves seems counterproductive. 

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I've learned a few things, and like I said, decided on a course of action thanks to your comments. I am not going to say I am without flaw. If the way I said things came across as demeaning, then I apologize for that was not my intention. My goal is to support and encourage women, and I believe what I have learned here has helped me to stay on that course. 

Thank you everyone.


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## tirediron (Jul 30, 2019)

Okay, I think this horse has been sufficiently tenderized.  Everyone go out and take some photos!


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