# Rant - Volleyball Tournement Disaster



## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

I just wanted to share a frustration I've experienced. I'm not a 'pro', don't charge for my services, and really take pictures as a hobby. I appreciate all of the C&C, and work hard to take the best shots that I'm able, and enjoy sharing my work with the parents of the kids on my daughters VB squad.

Here's the issue. Back on Feb 11th, I attended my daughters 1st tournement of 6th grade volleyball. I offered to take pictures of my daughters team, and of other teams for free, for fun. I was told that not only would I NOT be allowed on the floor, but they were also restricting ANY photography save the 'professionals' they had hired for the specific purpose of walking the floor taking pictures of all the teams.

I silently called BS, and packed my bag anyways. Afterall I didn't purchase the 70-200/2.8 L for nothing. Glad I took it. Got some great shots, many could have been better but being restricted to the bleachers wasn't optimal. I didn't notice any other photographers (except some parents in the stands) walking the floor or taking shots.

After the tourney ended I waited a week for the 'photographer' to upload her pictures (to Walgreens no less). Timeframe came and went. I emailed the organizer who assured me they had taken 'thousands' of pictures and would upload shortly after picking (in his words....'only the best').

Long story short, the pictures were posted yesterday (3-27-2012). To say the least the quality is terrible. The album is public, and here is the link. I won't post specific pictures, as I didn't take them. It's shameful to have someone represent themselves as 'professional' and post such crap. I'm embarrased for them. And it's especially frustrating for parents that have waited 6 weeks for a nice picture to find this. And double disappointing if they followed the tournement request to NOT take pictures in the stands, as they had hired a 'professional' to do it.


Edit (It does appear you have to 'login' to see the pictures. Not really worth it unless you already have an account. Suffice to say the pictures are not worth the time.)

She did leave her exif data. Here is the typical settings for an 'action' shot IN VOLLEYBALL!!! Indoors, with terrible lighting.
Camera: Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT
*Exposure: 1/15 sec*.
Aperture: 4.97 EV *(f/5.60)
*Focal length: 
*ISO speed: 400
*


If you do want to really see some horrible shots here are the links:

Whole album (28 pictures)

http://photo2.walgreens.com/walgree...tsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=walgreens/

Single picture, pretty much sums up the 'album'

http://photo2.walgreens.com/walgree...tsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=walgreens/


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## cnutco (Mar 28, 2012)

I can understand the restricted to only the event hired pro... but I would be pissed too if that were the outcome!

Can't see the pics and do not want to sign up for a Walgreens sign-on.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

cnutco said:


> I can understand the restricted to only the event hired pro... but I would be pissed too if that were the outcome!
> 
> Can't see the pics and do not want to sign up for a Walgreens sign-on.



Didn't realize you needed to sign up.  Sorry for the trouble, thanks for looking.


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## Hooligan Dan (Mar 28, 2012)

I feel bad that you missed out on some good shots and are instead expected to buy the crap shots from their "pro," but the pro side of me has to side with the organizers of the event.

I'm not saying this is how you are, but it is an incredible pain in the backside when I'm trying to shoot a sport and some parent with their rebel is getting in the way, not watching where other photos are and going where they shouldn't. More than a few times an official yelled at all the pro shooters and at a sporting event(mostly basketball) and forced us to move because some parent got in his/her way.


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## Big Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

I don't think that you'll find many people here who are surprised at something like this....it happens all the time.  

Not much you can do about the current situation, but you could contact whoever is in charge, show them that you can do better and try to land the next job for yourself.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 28, 2012)

Another instance where the equipment is indicative of the skill of the photographer... Most pro's don't use low end equipment. Send this case to Judge Joe Brown!  lol!


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 28, 2012)

Bestbuy had a clearance on DSLR's the day before that shoot!


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> Not much you can do about the current situation, but *you could contact whoever is in charge, show them that you can do better and try to land the next job for yourself*.



Here's the truth.  I contacted them before the tournement, after, and been generally a pain in the ass about the whole thing.  I have no interest in turning 'pro'.  I enjoy taking pictures of my daughter, and the team.  I don't interfere with a true professional (the really, really nice lady who takes the 'official' team pictures of my daughters team, in fact I buy them from her), but what chapped my ass is that I was told specifically that a 'professional' was going to take all sorts of pictures for all the teams for sale, and that even parents were being restricted from taking pictures from the stands.

And then they deliver what at best could be called a disaster.  What about all the folks that tried to follow the rules, and didn't take pictures?  They got totally hosed.  

And I could have (and did) take substantially better pictures than the person at this tourney, and would have shared them willingly.  But was totally rebuffed.


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## MReid (Mar 28, 2012)

I don't need to see the pics, I can tell what they look like from the exif data.
Obviously not only is this person not a pro, but they don't know the first thing about photography.


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## LRYoung (Mar 28, 2012)

Honestly - I think it is unreasonable that a pro would want other photographers not to take photos. 

Sure I can understand the reason behind it, less competition. However professional photographers should be just that, professional. In my opinion that means they are capable of taking great pictures, and delivering them on time. If they can do that to truly professional standards, then they should not have to worry about parents, and amateur photographers. After all, the Pro is meant to be taking pro quality photos.

Though I do think it's fair that they request amateur photographers to not be on the floor.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

LRYoung said:


> Though I do think it's fair that they request amateur photographers to not be on the floor.



I can agree with that, and didn't leave the bleachers.  It is however unreasonable to request that NO photography be done by anyone other than the 'professional'.  And that was what was being requested by the event host.


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## Big Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Some will define 'Professional' as someone who gets paid for what they do.  And in this case, that is apparently one thing she did right...she got the job.  

She may be a terrible photographer, no sympathy for her, but the blame should go to whoever hired her (which I think is what you're doing).  
And I think that most agree that there should be restrictions on who can be on the floor for these events.  If not, it would be crowded with all the parents and their P&S cameras.  

So like I mentioned, there isn't much you can do, besides tell them to hire someone better...if not you, then maybe recommend someone.  They probably don't have much of a budget, and that's when it may come out that their 'professional' was just someone's wife or sister who is just 'really into photography' and did it for peanuts.  
Like I recently said in another thread, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

One thing you could do, would be to offer the other parents, the shots that you took.  If you don't want to be in business, then you could just give them away.  This would likely undermine the so-called professional...which would typically be frowned upon....but it's also upon them to take advantage of their on-the-floor privileged to get better results, and if they don't deliver, then no sympathy for them.


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## Big Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

> I can agree with that, and didn't leave the bleachers. It is however unreasonable to request that NO photography be done by anyone other than the 'professional'. And that was what was being requested by the event host.


If it's their venue, they can do what they want.  But just because they have that rule, doesn't necessarily mean that they will enforce it.


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## Derrel (Mar 28, 2012)

The "pro" shot indoor volleyball at f/5.6 at 1/15 second at ISO 400. Laughable! Simply hilarious chit!


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 28, 2012)

Derrel said:


> The "pro" shot indoor volleyball at f/5.6 at 1/15 second at ISO 400. Laughable! Simply hilarious chit!



With that exif data I am pretty sure the action shots have no ball and no arms.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > The "pro" shot indoor volleyball at f/5.6 at 1/15 second at ISO 400. Laughable! Simply hilarious chit!
> ...



Every picture is essentially a picasso painting.  Who needs bokah when the entire scene is one giant blur.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 28, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Bestbuy had a clearance on DSLR's the day before that shoot!



Except that Best Buy wouldn't be selling and entry level DSLR from '05.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> *One thing you could do, would be to offer the other parents, the shots that you took. *If you don't want to be in business, then you could just give them away. This would likely undermine the so-called professional...which would typically be frowned upon....but it's also upon them to take advantage of their on-the-floor privileged to get better results, and if they don't deliver, then no sympathy for them.



I always do.  Every game I shoot I post on photobucket.  The only thing I don't do is a lot of post production work, except for maybe 3-5 shots for posting on here (they also get put on the album).  That's why I'm here...to make myself a much better photographer for personal, hobby related reasons.  Just because I have no ambition to sell my pictures, doesn't mean I want to take crappy shots.  Thats why I like it here.  One thing I don't have to worry about is if I'm getting honest critique! 

Plus, this is 6th, 7th and 8th grade girls Volleyball.  We're not talking collegiate/pro level action here.  Most of the games I'm the one taking the pictures.  My daughters coach has dubbed me the 'team photographer'.  I'm not intending to take away someones income, as typically there isn't anyone else taking shots.

Anyways I was just ticked off and wanted to blow off some steam.  Appreicate all the feedback.


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## cnutco (Mar 28, 2012)

CMfromIL said:


> cnutco said:
> 
> 
> > I can understand the restricted to only the event hired pro... but I would be pissed too if that were the outcome!
> ...



No prob here!  Are you going to post up some of your shots from the stands?


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## mishele (Mar 28, 2012)

Lets see the pictures you took.....


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 28, 2012)

I agree allot of that blame goes on whoever hired them to do the photos. I wonder if its one of the organisations wife or husband...   As a parent I surely wouldn't buy one of those pics. and if I was the promoter i'd be embarresed to even show them. Once I saw them i'd tell the lady not to bother even putting them up. And then I would send out an apology to those attending who were waiting for quality pics.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

They were spaced over 3 games, here are a couple from each game.  Also, they were shot in .jpg (at the time)  I now shoot in .jpg/RAW based on earlier feedback from postings after the tournment.  I use the RAW images to work with in PP, and throw the bulk on photobucket with the .jpg shots.

Game 1:

1.  







2.






3.






2nd Game

4.






5.  Just liked the shot.






3rd Game

6.  






7.


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## LRYoung (Mar 28, 2012)

Lets see the exif data for your photos


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 28, 2012)

LRYoung said:


> Lets see the exif data for your photos



Doest it matter?


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

LRYoung said:


> Lets see the exif data for your photos



I don't strip them off, but I don't see them on photobucket either.  All are ISO 3200, shutter speed 1/500-1/640, and f/2.8-3.5. Was between 85-140mm for all shots.

I would have gone higer in ISO, but didn't have a good noise reduction software at the time, but now I'll shoot up to 6400.  Also, keep in mind this was the first day that I shot with the new lens, so I wasn't 100% confident with zooming.  Also, much to my dismay I was shooting in single shot AF, I have now learned to use AF Servo for shooting sports.


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## LRYoung (Mar 28, 2012)

What noise reduction software do you use now?


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

LR4 (Beta).  After the beta period ends, I'll bite the bullet and pay the $79.00  It's a lot cheaper than CS5.5, although I've heard there is a beta going on with CS6 and I sure do like 'free'!


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## snapcult (Mar 28, 2012)

Your shots aren't bad at all, I'm sure a lot better than the ones at a 15th of a second... You best pet is to build a site with all your sports images and try to land the job next time. Even if you use a 500px type site to get the job and something like Smugmug to sell the images on. I had the same problem when I started shooting BMX racing, there were a few other photographers, but most didn't really understand fill flash or color correction. All you can really do is put your best work out there and hopefully win people over. At any rate I can't think any parents were really buying the "professionals" images with that camera data.


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## snapcult (Mar 28, 2012)

Also remember with youth sports sometimes the best images aren't of the game, the good ones are more the sidelines type stuff...


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## Scuba (Mar 28, 2012)

The last one had some EXIF data.  Seems like good settings, but I don't do sports.  The only thing I see is matrix meetering that may be an issue, but again I don't do sports.  I think your shots are pretty decent for being in the stands.  I know your images have to be better then the "pro" by the EXIF you posted.  The best you can do is talk to them.

Camera Maker: Canon 
Camera Model: Canon EOS REBEL T3i 
Lens: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM 
Image Date: 2012-02-11 17:30:11 (no TZ) 
Focal Length: 110mm 
Aperture: f/3.2 
Exposure Time: 0.0025 s (1/400) 
ISO equiv: 3200 
Exposure Bias: none 
Metering Mode: Matrix 
Exposure: Manual 
Exposure Mode: Manual 
White Balance: Manual 
Flash Fired: No (enforced) 
Orientation: Normal 
Color Space: sRGB 
GPS Coordinate: undefined, undefined 
Copyright: No Duplication 
Software: Microsoft Windows Photo Viewer 6.1.7600.16385


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## Tony S (Mar 28, 2012)

OK i"m going against the popular voice on this one. I'm very familiar with this situation from the point of the parent (who spent thousands on volleyball for our daughter to play and travel nationally), as a hired photographer, and as a coach/league rep.

The league has the right to restrict photography at an event they put on. Most of the time they contract with a photographer to shoot the events, and the league will get a cut of the sales, often times they even pay the photographer to show up.  I'll not comment on the quality of the photographer at your tournament. Instead of being ticked off about your lack of access to good shooting spots, *I would be pissed at the league for not doing their homework and getting a better photographer to cover the event*.

To shoot pictures of your own daughter is not much of a problem, but when you start offering photos to the team and other teams for nothing it cuts into the agreed upon contract the league has and they should do the right thing by enforcing that contract. It's their tourney, their rules.

This is actually a very common practice that helps defer the costs to the league. It's also very common for the photography coming from these photographers not to be the best in the business since they are mass shooting the event. 

Another problem is parents shooting photos at sports events are not there just as a photographer. They are there as fans and often they also cheer or make comments to players and event officials from up close, the only way to control that is to say no shooting from the floor areas. If they let one on the floor, they have to let everyone on the floor, so it's about tournament management also. Again, their tournament, their rules.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 28, 2012)

Tony S said:


> _The league has the right to restrict photography at an event they put on._ Most of the time they contract with a photographer to shoot the events, and the league will get a cut of the sales, often times they even pay the photographer to show up. _I'll not comment on the quality of the photographer at your tournament_. Instead of being ticked off about your lack of access to good shooting spots, *I would be pissed at the league for not doing their homework and getting a better photographer to cover the event*.



1. The event was held at a public school, for public school athletes. This was not a 'private' league, or held on a private facility. Had it been I would have been much more inclined to leave my camera at home per the 'request'.

2. You ought to take a gander at the shots. They are that bad.

3. I was only pissed that they put up as many restrictions, then saw the end result. Had they been professional, I'd not had much of a rant. 




Tony S said:


> To shoot pictures of your own daughter is not much of a problem, but when you start offering photos to the team and other teams for nothing it cuts into the agreed upon contract the league has and they should do the right thing by enforcing that contract. It's their tourney, their rules.



Again, public property, school event. Not private leagues.



Tony S said:


> *This is actually a very common practice that helps defer the costs to the league. *It's also very common for the photography coming from these photographers not to be the best in the business since they are mass shooting the event.




Here's the kicker. The pictures are put on Walgreens where parents are 'allowed' to buy them. The photographer isn't even getting a cut, neither is the school in whatever they sell. It's just money out of the parents pockets to Walgreens.

So why the hell did they want to restrict parents from taking pictures of their own kids, and instead have to rely on a 2 bit hack (sorry any 2-bit hacks) to post awful pictures?




Tony S said:


> Another problem is parents shooting photos at sports events are not there just as a photographer. They are there as fans and often they also cheer or make comments to players and event officials from up close, the only way to control that is to say no shooting from the floor areas. If they let one on the floor, they have to let everyone on the floor, so it's about tournament management also. Again, their tournament, their rules.



I conceeded to the request and didn't shoot from the floor. At least no lower than the first row for some.


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## Tony S (Mar 28, 2012)

Many of the schools I shoot in don't allow parents on the floor to take photos, whether it's volleyball or basketball.  They do allow the parents to shoot from the stands down to the first row.

  I would still be angry at the school though if they said they had a pro shooting photos and you got the garbage it sounds like you got.  By telling the parents this they gave them some expectation to quality and because of this some parents may not have taken pictures and missed out on getting some of their child.  Sounds like maybe you need to approach the AD, if you haven't bugged them too much, and make an offer to shoot games. Since you don't want to do it as a business venture, set it up so parents buy pictures for a very low fee as a fund raiser for the team.

  Of course, from the way this all sounds I'm starting to guess that the other person who was photographing might know someone who has given them the "in" and that they are not a pro of any kind.


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## AceCo55 (Mar 29, 2012)

Well I did go on to Walgreens and looked at them ... I can confirm they are truly horrible. Very few are "action" shots - and the ones that are? Well 1/15 sec tells the story. Motion blur, OOF ...yuk. Many of the static shots do not include the face  - hands/arms in the way, backsides ... generally nothing shots.

I would be annoyed at the official/administrator that hired this person (I can not say photographer) and I would direct my complaints/comments to that person(s). If they have continued to have this person shoot this rubbish, then they should be comprehensively condemned. As a parent I would be furious.


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## molested_cow (Mar 29, 2012)

Hmmmm.... If I were you, I will try to find out where the budget to hire this said photographer came from. If it is related to your contribution, then you should fight for the quality of the service that your money has paid for.

This is always a struggle, not just in school events. At my last job, a product that I designed was to be launched and they hired some guy to do the product's photography, which turned out to be absolutely horrible, from lighting, angle(distortion) to post processing. I rang up the lady in charge of the promotion stuff and made it known to her that these are not usable, and offered her the contact of another really good professional photographer that we(our department) works with. All she said is, "noted, but we don't have the budget to hire your recommended photographer". This is multi national company with a lot of reputation to lose, and here's a lady pulling the corporate crap instead of relaying the message to whoever needs to get her more budget.

Further more, what's a few thousand dollars compared to the millions that they waste on really stupid crap?

So my point is, if your money is involved in this, and if you feel strongly about it, then try to make it well spent.


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## CMfromIL (Mar 29, 2012)

I have made my feelings as clear as possible with the person in charge, and I'm going to leave it alone at this point.  They know they put out a crap 'product' and have hired on a reputable local photog for future events.

The person they used was the head of 'media relations' for their non-school sanctioned league.  I went to their website, and looked at several seasons of pictures.  I can't believe the parents didn't complain about it.  She must have been using the same tired lens, and same body for all of them.  It's outrageous she even thought they were worth posting.

Thanks for all the feedback.


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## Compaq (Mar 29, 2012)

I looked through the pro's pics. I hope this shoot was anonymous, I'd never put my name under those.

Yours are tons better. My fav would be the awesome serve pose.

Oh, and volleyball is the best sport there is!


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## CMfromIL (Mar 29, 2012)

@ Compaq,

Thank you!  That girl serves like that every shot!  It's so very fast though, usually I don't get her full posture in.  But as the season went on, and I got my timing better it was easier to capture her serve.


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## Compaq (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm playing volleyball in third division here in Norway (that sounds far fancier than it is, trust me!), and I'd really like to shoot some volleyball matches. Unfortunately, I'm usually playing our matches, and not sitting on the bench LOL 

But, we're making a promo movie for the new students that are coming this autumn, and we'll be shooting and stuff. My point: I'm planning on using my ultra wide 11-16mm. I get close, right under where they're spiking...making it look like they're jumping really high. Those short focal lengths will drag out the court, making it look larger. I think it'll give me some interesting results, if I compose properly. You can't stand that close in matches, but maybe you'd get permission to shoot a practice or two.


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## APHPHOTO (Mar 29, 2012)

Holy crap! Theres no way this was a professional. Theres so many things wrong with ALL the pics. How are the rest of the parents reacting to these photos?


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## CMfromIL (Mar 29, 2012)

APHPHOTO said:


> Holy crap! Theres no way this was a professional. Theres so many things wrong with ALL the pics. How are the rest of the parents reacting to these photos?



Our team's parents (other than me) have no idea the quality -or lack therof- as the coach refused to forward the information.  Because I supplied ALL the parents on my squad with approximatly 240 images for d/l on photobucket, she didn't think it would serve any purpose to embarass the 'professional'.

As far as the other teams, I really don't know.  I don't have much interaction with other teams parents.  I would imagine the feedback hasn't been very positive.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 31, 2012)

Person was not a professional, didn't know how to shoot volleyball, probably doesn't know how to shoot anything sports related, but does own a digital camera, knows someone stupid enough to give them money for the photos.  Welcome to what has happened to professional photography.  It really sucks that you weren't able to shoot your own photos, especially at that level, there is no reason to put restrictions on a parent taking pictures of their own kids.  But it is their venue, and they can pretty much say and do what they like.

Inspite of what alot of people think, shooting sports really well isn't easy.  People are mislead all the time by the camera compaines, especially Canon, into thinking that all it takes is a "sports mode" button on a camera is all that is required to shoot great sports pictures, the TV ads they run show it can be done, and TV never lies.


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