# Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600



## hombredelmar

Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00. 
Wanted to know the difference and why someone would  buy Einstain E640 over Alient Bees B1600?
Thank you once again!

Just realized that both units are 640 Ws but still would like to know why these two units are different in price?


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## Designer

You should ask the Paul C. Buff company to get it straight from them.  Just a guess; the Einsteins have a more advanced technology.


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## table1349

Toyota Yaris vs Lexus LFA.  Why is the Lexus more expensive?  They are both made by Toyota? Like designer said it is what's inside and out.  If you compare the important aspects of both you will see the difference.


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## hombredelmar

gryphonslair99 said:


> Toyota Yaris vs Lexus LFA. Why is the Lexus more expensive? They are both made by Toyota? Like designer said it is what's inside and out. If you compare the important aspects of both you will see the difference.



I was hoping to hear from someone who has direct knowledge about the units, perhaps someone who owns one.
Thanks anyway


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## hombredelmar

Designer said:


> You should ask the Paul C. Buff company to get it straight from them. Just a guess; the Einsteins have a more advanced technology.



Thank you, calling is a good idea.


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## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.
> Wanted to know the difference and why I someone buy Einstain E640 over Alient Bees B1600?
> Thank you once again!
> 
> Just realized that both units are 640 Ws but still would like to know why these two units are different in price?




You need to carefully read the product page descriptions at Paul C. Buff, Inc..  All details are presented to you.

There is a huge difference in these models.

The Alienbees and White Lightnings are about the same electronics inside.  The Alienbees are the adequate but inexpensive construction, and the White Lightnings are the robust construction, can drive over them with tanks.  

The Einsteins are a different horse of another color.    Studio lights (all of them, all brands, including Alienbees and White Lightning) become more red at low power.  Whereas camera speedlights (all of them, all brands) become more blue at low power.  White balance is a concern.   Einstein combines these two methods simultaneously, carefully controlled so that the color shift of one method offsets the color shift of the other way.  So Constant Color is one feature, which other lights of any brand cannot claim.  Also the speedlight methodology in the Einsteins make them be extremely fast (short duration) compared to other studio lights.

Compare the speed ratings of the Einstein and the Alienbees B1600.  Big flashes turned way down are red and slow.

Some models of White Lightning switch in more or less capacitors for low power.  This prevents much of the red shift, and it makes a big flash become a small flash, which becomes very fast.

Read the specs.


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## Derrel

Paul C. Buff started making cylindrical monolights, painted white, with built-in reflectors, and they looked like large-sized tin coffee cans. The WL 5,000 and 10,000 were the names. IMMSMC WHITE LIGHTING 5,000 + photo - Google Search 

Next came his sexier White Lighting Ultra series, which remain to this day. Then came Alien Bees, in bright neon colors and a new small-body form factor. He then developed a pack-and-head system, the Zeuss system. Then came the long, difficult quest to develop a modern, high-tech, high-specification light, which was a venture filled with loooong delays and setbacks in suppliers and sourcing, and also a included a personal tantrum by Buff himself, in public, on his then-active web forum centered around Buff company lights, and also in a bitter, public, on-line feud with his detractors in the dPreview lighting forum. Basically, the poor performance of the Alien Bee and White Lightning reflectors came under heavy fire for poor light distribution, and Buff took umbrage at the criticisms, which were...deserved and accurate. He got very P-O'd about what he called "Euro-lights", and the people who advocated better-made lights from Europe.

As I recall, he was banned from the dPReview forums, and he also SHUT DOWN his own forum on his own company's server after continuing, direct criticism from members. Last time I checked, the forum archive had been re-opened and made available, and it has a wealth of information. On that forum his user name was Paul C Buff, spelled backward.

Anyway...for the Einsteins, he decided to build a higher-tech flash, with faster flash durations, and VERY consistent color temperature even with the power levels dialed way down. He also decided to stop grossly inflating the perceived power level by no longer naming the units a number value that was two or three times their stored Watt-seconds, which had been an issue that many detractors threw up in his face for years. For example, the Flashpoint 320M actually puts out MORE light than an Alien Bee 400, and is about equal to the light output of the Alien Bee 800, and costs $149 and $179 less than those two units--for more, or the same flash output. A Speedotron 400 W-s flash is about the same as an White Lighting 1600 in terms of flash output...you know, in actual LIGHT. Now, this is a guy who started with "5,000" and "10,000" model numbers...as a way to confuse and mislead buyers, in my opinion. Again: flash is often bought based on comparing specifications, and *the actual model number* is one way to confuse/direct customer attention.

Studio flash is often bought sight-unseen, by people perusing specification lists. Since the internet has developed, B.S. is harder to hide, and there is MUCH MORE REAL, and accurate information that is available and widely-disseminated now that we have the internet as a way to share information among thousands of actual customers. Buff joining the dPreview lighting forum, and later starting his own forum, brought a LOT of issues out into the light of day, with searchable results just seconds away. Buff got personally offended by the criticisms of his AB and WL light modifiers, and I think vowed to make MUCH BETTER modifiers, with better shapes, and better light-distributing properties, and he set out to build his company's BEST light unit EVER. Best design, best specifications, best performance, and a model number that would ensure its success in the marketplace. The Einstein 640 is the culmination of his lifetime of work devoted to studio flash. It is a much more-advanced, technically-better, and practically better light than anything his company has sold over the last 30 years. Studio flash is almost exclusively sold *by specification, not by demonstration*. In the Eisntein 640, BUff designed a monolight that hits sooooo many specifications and must-haves that it has become his most-respected product.

If you want to read a LOT of detailed info about the Einsteins and why they are Buff's best, look for John Fisher's excellent write-ups on modelmayhem.com, like this one: ModelMayhem.com - The New Einstein Monolight Studio Strobe, Part III


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## brihalbach

From my experience and reading different views you get more control and consistency from the Einstein. Alien bee is awesome, but if you want great coloring and more exact power you go with Einstein.


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## Tee

hombredelmar said:


> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.



You might want to check the specs again.  Both units go up to 640 watt seconds.


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## Derrel

Tee said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to check the specs again.  Both units go up to 640 watt seconds.
Click to expand...


And one is called a 640, while the older design is called a "1600". Again...the strategy of naming the original Buff lights "5,000" and "10,000". The Buff company has had a loooong history of deceptive naming practices, in an effort to make uneducated customers think its flashes were more-powerful than those of other companies.

From the White Lighting 10,000 and White Lighting 5,000 manual, found here:http://www.paulcbuff.com/manuals/wl5k10k.pdf

" The WL 10,000 delivers 250 true wattseconds of energy per flash, and the WL 5,000 delivers 130 true wattseconds of energy per flash."


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## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.
> Wanted to know the difference and why I someone buy Einstain E640 over Alient Bees B1600?
> Thank you once again!
> 
> Just realized that both units are 640 Ws but still would like to know why these two units are different in price?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to carefully read the product page descriptions at Paul C. Buff, Inc.. All details are presented to you.
> 
> There is a huge difference in these models.
> 
> The Alienbees and White Lightnings are about the same electronics inside. The Alienbees are the adequate but inexpensive construction, and the White Lightnings are the robust construction, can drive over them with tanks.
> 
> The Einsteins are a different horse of another color. Studio lights (all of them, all brands, including Alienbees and White Lightning) become more red at low power. Whereas camera speedlights (all of them, all brands) become more blue at low power. White balance is a concern. Einstein combines these two methods simultaneously, carefully controlled so that the color shift of one method offsets the color shift of the other way. So Constant Color is one feature, which other lights of any brand cannot claim. Also the speedlight methodology in the Einsteins make them be extremely fast (short duration) compared to other studio lights.
> 
> Compare the speed ratings of the Einstein and the Alienbees B1600. Big flashes turned way down are red and slow.
> 
> Some models of White Lightning switch in more or less capacitors for low power. This prevents much of the red shift, and it makes a big flash become a small flash, which becomes very fast.
> 
> Read the specs.
Click to expand...


WayneF, thank you for your informative answer, I got a lot of information from it. I will definitely contact the company. Now, I am better prepared for the conversation. 
Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge!!!!!


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## hombredelmar

Derrel said:


> Paul C. Buff started making cylindrical monolights, painted white, with built-in reflectors, and they looked like large-sized tin coffee cans. The WL 5,000 and 10,000 were the names. IMMSMC WHITE LIGHTING 5,000 + photo - Google Search
> 
> Next came his sexier White Lighting Ultra series, which remain to this day. Then came Alien Bees, in bright neon colors and a new small-body form factor. He then developed a pack-and-head system, the Zeuss system. Then came the long, difficult quest to develop a modern, high-tech, high-specification light, which was a venture filled with loooong delays and setbacks in suppliers and sourcing, and also a included a personal tantrum by Buff himself, in public, on his then-active web forum centered around Buff company lights, and also in a bitter, public, on-line feud with his detractors in the dPreview lighting forum. Basically, the poor performance of the Alien Bee and White Lightning reflectors came under heavy fire for poor light distribution, and Buff took umbrage at the criticisms, which were...deserved and accurate. He got very P-O'd about what he called "Euro-lights", and the people who advocated better-made lights from Europe.
> 
> As I recall, he was banned from the dPReview forums, and he also SHUT DOWN his own forum on his own company's server after continuing, direct criticism from members. Last time I checked, the forum archive had been re-opened and made available, and it has a wealth of information. On that forum his user name was Paul C Buff, spelled backward.
> 
> Anyway...for the Einsteins, he decided to build a higher-tech flash, with faster flash durations, and VERY consistent color temperature even with the power levels dialed way down. He also decided to stop grossly inflating the perceived power level by no longer naming the units a number value that was two or three times their stored Watt-seconds, which had been an issue that many detractors threw up in his face for years. For example, the Flashpoint 320M actually puts out MORE light than an Alien Bee 400, and is about equal to the light output of the Alien Bee 800, and costs $149 and $179 less than those two units--for more, or the same flash output. A Speedotron 400 W-s flash is about the same as an White Lighting 1600 in terms of flash output...you know, in actual LIGHT. Now, this is a guy who started with "5,000" and "10,000" model numbers...as a way to confuse and mislead buyers, in my opinion. Again: flash is often bought based on comparing specifications, and *the actual model number* is one way to confuse/direct customer attention.
> 
> Studio flash is often bought sight-unseen, by people perusing specification lists. Since the internet has developed, B.S. is harder to hide, and there is MUCH MORE REAL, and accurate information that is available and widely-disseminated now that we have the internet as a way to share information among thousands of actual customers. Buff joining the dPreview lighting forum, and later starting his own forum, brought a LOT of issues out into the light of day, with searchable results just seconds away. Buff got personally offended by the criticisms of his AB and WL light modifiers, and I think vowed to make MUCH BETTER modifiers, with better shapes, and better light-distributing properties, and he set out to build his company's BEST light unit EVER. Best design, best specifications, best performance, and a model number that would ensure its success in the marketplace. The Einstein 640 is the culmination of his lifetime of work devoted to studio flash. It is a much more-advanced, technically-better, and practically better light than anything his company has sold over the last 30 years. Studio flash is almost exclusively sold *by specification, not by demonstration*. In the Eisntein 640, BUff designed a monolight that hits sooooo many specifications and must-haves that it has become his most-respected product.
> 
> If you want to read a LOT of detailed info about the Einsteins and why they are Buff's best, look for John Fisher's excellent write-ups on modelmayhem.com, like this one: ModelMayhem.com - The New Einstein Monolight Studio Strobe, Part III




Before I posted this topic I went to the Paul C. Buff web site and looked at the specs of different portable light units including portable power systems, something that I was originally researching, I printed out some manuals to go over at my free time. I also went to the forum, at the web site, where I did not find much so I decided to get some insights from this forum.  There is some information that you shared was not new to me and if I am not mistaken the key points of the unit (Einstein 640) is that it is:


Works consistently in low power 
Faster flash duration
Technically advanced 
Among other options and the fact that this particular unit was the best (technologically advanced) unit he ever built. 
When it comes to flash duration, unless it is directly responsible for longer lasting charge of a battery I might not be able to capitalize on it since I am not planning to freeze he action of my subject 

I could of asked it before, but are the any other brands that are less expensive that would give me similar quality/result?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hombredelmar

brihalbach said:


> From my experience and reading different views you get more control and consistency from the Einstein. Alien bee is awesome, but if you want great coloring and more exact power you go with Einstein.



Thak you, 
From what i read by now this is the most important factor


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## hombredelmar

Tee said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to check the specs again. Both units go up to 640 watt seconds.
Click to expand...


You are right it does go to 640


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## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> I am not mistaken the key points of the unit (Einstein 640) is that it is:
> 
> 
> Works consistently in low power
> Faster flash duration
> Technically advanced
> Among other options and the fact that this particular unit was the best (technologically advanced) unit he ever built.



Possibly the best than anyone has ever built.  Certainly for a price under several thousand dollars.

Paul Buff has set standards for quite a few years.  First the White Lightnings for monolights. Then Alienbees for less expensive but good lights. Now the Einsteins for constant color.  The others will have to follow again soon.

Paul Buff is claimed to have more than half of the US market.  Searches on Google makes this be very easy to believe.   I have four Alienbees.



> are the any other brands that are less expensive that would give me similar quality/result?



There are several cheap flash brands. Alienbees is the GOOD inexpensive flash.  Compare the specs.  The cheap ones don't mention much in the way of their specs.


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## hombredelmar

Derrel said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Einstain E640 vs AlienBees B1600
> I have noticed that one company makes both flash units and Einstain E640=500.00 dollars while AlienBees B1600 that is almost 3 times more powerfull and costs only 359.00.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to check the specs again. Both units go up to 640 watt seconds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And one is called a 640, while the older design is called a "1600". Again...the strategy of naming the original Buff lights "5,000" and "10,000". The Buff company has had a loooong history of deceptive naming practices, in an effort to make uneducated customers think its flashes were more-powerful than those of other companies.
> 
> From the White Lighting 10,000 and White Lighting 5,000 manual, found here:http://www.paulcbuff.com/manuals/wl5k10k.pdf
> 
> " The WL 10,000 delivers 250 true wattseconds of energy per flash, and the WL 5,000 delivers 130 true wattseconds of energy per flash."
Click to expand...



In this day and age their deceiving practices have no chance to exist


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## Derrel

You have the main advantages listed, yes. Consistent color temperature, even at low power, and short duration, high-speed flash. In terms of quality of results, I think two things: flash duration is, for most people, relatively unimportant on MOST jobs, and 2-the results depend more on the USER'S SKILL at lighting than on the brand on the housing.

I would rather have FIVE low-cost Adorama Flashpoint 320M models than two, or three, Einstein 640 units. I want the ability to have FIVE lights if I need them. Your situation might be different. 

The quality of result is more up to YOU than to the brand you have, but it can also be dependent upon having the needed "stuff". 

There are plenty of lights on the market that will get the job done.

You seem to need to be told this point-blank: *the skill of the guy doing the lighting placement and making the decisions is VASTLY more-critical than the name on the housing*. Being able to exercise good control over the light output, using snoots, grids, reflectors, parabolics, umbrellas, soft boxes, barn doors, gels, scrims,diffusion disc, diffusion sheets or scrims or screens, flags, reflectors, stands, boom arms, etc.--that is what lighting is about.

You need more MODIFIERS and more light-shaping tools and more individual lights than you do ultimate power, or flash duration, or color temp regulation. The light units themselves are NOT the most-critical factor in the results you get. You cannot just buy your way to good lighting results.


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## Mach0

Derrel said:


> And one is called a 640, while the older design is called a "1600". Again...the strategy of naming the original Buff lights "5,000" and "10,000". The Buff company has had a loooong history of deceptive naming practices, in an effort to make uneducated customers think its flashes were more-powerful than those of other companies.  From the White Lighting 10,000 and White Lighting 5,000 manual, found here:http://www.paulcbuff.com/manuals/wl5k10k.pdf  " The WL 10,000 delivers 250 true wattseconds of energy per flash, and the WL 5,000 delivers 130 true wattseconds of energy per flash."



A lot of manufacturers do it. Photogenic, paul buff and I'm missing a few others too.
Icant name them all but I've seem it before


----------



## table1349

hombredelmar said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to check the specs again. Both units go up to 640 watt seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one is called a 640, while the older design is called a "1600". Again...the strategy of naming the original Buff lights "5,000" and "10,000". The Buff company has had a loooong history of deceptive naming practices, in an effort to make uneducated customers think its flashes were more-powerful than those of other companies.
> 
> From the White Lighting 10,000 and White Lighting 5,000 manual, found here:http://www.paulcbuff.com/manuals/wl5k10k.pdf
> 
> " The WL 10,000 delivers 250 true wattseconds of energy per flash, and the WL 5,000 delivers 130 true wattseconds of energy per flash."
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> In this day and age their deceiving practices have no chance to exist
Click to expand...


Really,  read the reviews from this company:  Express Cameras / expresscamera.com / Save Here Distribution Reviews - expresscamera.com Ratings at ResellerRatings  There are hundreds like them listed here.  If everything on the internet is true, then I'm dating a french model.


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## Designer

hombredelmar said:


> .. are the any other brands that are less expensive that would give me similar quality/result?


Have a look at Adorama's Flashpoint lights.  I have no idea how they stack up against the Einsteins, but they are cheaper.


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## hombredelmar

Derrel said:


> You have the main advantages listed, yes. Consistent color temperature, even at low power, and short duration, high-speed flash. In terms of quality of results, I think two things: flash duration is, for most people, relatively unimportant on MOST jobs, and 2-the results depend more on the USER'S SKILL at lighting than on the brand on the housing.
> 
> I would rather have FIVE low-cost Adorama Flashpoint 320M models than two, or three, Einstein 640 units. I want the ability to have FIVE lights if I need them. Your situation might be different.
> 
> The quality of result is more up to YOU than to the brand you have, but it can also be dependent upon having the needed "stuff".
> 
> There are plenty of lights on the market that will get the job done.
> 
> You seem to need to be told this point-blank: *the skill of the guy doing the lighting placement and making the decisions is VASTLY more-critical than the name on the housing*. Being able to exercise good control over the light output, using snoots, grids, reflectors, parabolics, umbrellas, soft boxes, barn doors, gels, scrims,diffusion disc, diffusion sheets or scrims or screens, flags, reflectors, stands, boom arms, etc.--that is what lighting is about.
> 
> You need more MODIFIERS and more light-shaping tools and more individual lights than you do ultimate power, or flash duration, or color temp regulation. The light units themselves are NOT the most-critical factor in the results you get. You cannot just buy your way to good lighting results.



Got your point !!!


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## table1349

This would be a good start: Light Science and Magic


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## hombredelmar

Designer said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. are the any other brands that are less expensive that would give me similar quality/result?
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at Adorama's Flashpoint lights. I have no idea how they stack up against the Einsteins, but they are cheaper.
Click to expand...



Are they Power Pack Strobes?


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## Designer

hombredelmar said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. are the any other brands that are less expensive that would give me similar quality/result?
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at Adorama's Flashpoint lights. I have no idea how they stack up against the Einsteins, but they are cheaper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Are they Power Pack Strobes?
Click to expand...


"(DC power pack sold separately)."


----------



## Derrel

Adorama's Flashpoint flash units are "*monolight*" designs, with the flash capacitors and other associated circuitry located inside the housing that holds the flashtube and mounting bracket. Monolights are self-contained flash units.

The ability to use a separate, DC-current, rechargeable battery pack attachment is now a feature that more and more monolights have.


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## table1349

If you are wanting pack lights this is a good setup.   Not in your price range though.  They are not the same as monolights.  Great in the studio, but a PIA for location shooting.


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## Derrel

HERE is a pack-and-head system from what I consider to be the top manufacturer in this specific category: light,small,powerful and RUGGED as HELL pack-and-head flash of professional grade and proven reputation:

Dynalite RK4-1222 Kit with Westcott 5-in-1 Reflector DNRK41222A

For another few hundred, get TWO power packs, and THREE flash heads, with the eventual capacity of six total flash units.

http://www.adorama.com/DNRK42302.html


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## hombredelmar

gryphonslair99 said:


> If you are wanting pack lights this is a good setup. Not in your price range though. They are not the same as monolights. Great in the studio, but a PIA for location shooting.




Thanks but I am not as professional as they are


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## hombredelmar

Derrel said:


> HERE is a pack-and-head system from what I consider to be the top manufacturer in this specific category: light,small,powerful and RUGGED as HELL pack-and-head flash of professional grade and proven reputation:
> 
> Dynalite RK4-1222 Kit with Westcott 5-in-1 Reflector DNRK41222A
> 
> For another few hundred, get TWO power packs, and THREE flash heads, with the eventual capacity of six total flash units.
> 
> Dynalite RK4-2302 Kit with Two 400W/s Road Power Pack RK4-2302




Great, I wll look into it!
You wanted to say for another 2k I can have more heads and a battery?!


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## Derrel

I meant for $2100 or so you get two, separate power packs and three MH 2015 Road Flash Heads, which are $342 each at B&H Photo right now.

Dynalite MH2015 Road Flash Head MH2015 B&H Photo Video

These weigh 1.9 pound each--VERY light for a studio flash head. When you look at the a la carte price of the 3-outlet, 400 Watt-second RoadMax power pack, with its three-head outlet capacity, it's $915, so I think the two kits are pretty good deals.

Dynalite MP400 400W/s RoadMax Power Pack MP400 B&H Photo Video

I myself however, think that LESS power, and "more lights" is often what is needed, so I would look at a slightly different power pack as the basis of my kit. The Dynalite MP400 Roadmax PM power pack--a slightly different one than in the above kits. It weighs 4.2 pounds, has 1.0 second recycle time, *a BUILT-IN 32-channel Pocket Wizard Receiver, *IR slave, and optical slave, 6-stop power range, and this is the critical; difference, it has *FOUR head outlets*. This pack is split into two channels, each with full/half/quarter power switches, for seven basic power settings, plus 2/10 stop click-stop adjustment.

To "me", that is the idea setup for location jobs. A SMALL, light, rugged, SIMPLE , 400 Watt-second, two-channel, symmetrical/asymmetrical, click-stop regulated pack from the best name in this kind of lighting. With today's cameras, 400 Watt-seconds of flash is very useful for many jobs. I own three 400 Watt-second packs myself.

The thing about the MP400: it has FULL/HALF/QUARTER power options, on two different separate switches. THAT is awesome, and a most useful option. The MP400 is probably the finest 400 W-s pack made currently.


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## unpopular

tldr - but in case it hasn't already been mentioned (and I am sure it must have been) power does not equate output. My super cheap 300ws Mettles (the brand that Adorama rebrands as Flashpoint) produce more light than the 400ws Alienbees according to their own spec sheets and my measurements.

How much of that energy is converted into light will depend on design. For what it's worth, I'm happy with my Mettles nad never experienced too much trouble with them. They can be a tiny bit purplish, about one out of ten exposures. 

If you're looking for something to play around with I am sure the Alienbees are fine. If you're looking for something to make money with and can afford it, I'd go with something more "professional".


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## Scatterbrained

Derrel said:


> You have the main advantages listed, yes. Consistent color temperature, even at low power, and short duration, high-speed flash. In terms of quality of results, I think two things: flash duration is, for most people, relatively unimportant on MOST jobs, and 2-the results depend more on the USER'S SKILL at lighting than on the brand on the housing.
> 
> I would rather have FIVE low-cost Adorama Flashpoint 320M models than two, or three, Einstein 640 units. I want the ability to have FIVE lights if I need them. Your situation might be different.
> 
> The quality of result is more up to YOU than to the brand you have, but it can also be dependent upon having the needed "stuff".
> 
> There are plenty of lights on the market that will get the job done.
> 
> You seem to need to be told this point-blank: *the skill of the guy doing the lighting placement and making the decisions is VASTLY more-critical than the name on the housing*. Being able to exercise good control over the light output, using snoots, grids, reflectors, parabolics, umbrellas, soft boxes, barn doors, gels, scrims,diffusion disc, diffusion sheets or scrims or screens, flags, reflectors, stands, boom arms, etc.--that is what lighting is about.
> 
> You need more MODIFIERS and more light-shaping tools and more individual lights than you do ultimate power, or flash duration, or color temp regulation. The light units themselves are NOT the most-critical factor in the results you get. You cannot just buy your way to good lighting results.



 I would say true, but with some caveats.

  First, control.  With PCB lights you can invest in the CyberCommander system and control all your lights from the remote.  You can meter each light individually and adjust power to suit.   This can be pretty handy when you've got lights in hard to reach places like overhead, under a table, or behind some furniture.     The system works with all the lights PCB sells, so if you start with Alien Bees and then decide you want an Einstein or two you can still use the same system.   Adorama does have a remote triggering system they sell for their lights, but it doesn't offer any control functions.  

  Second would be after sales support.  If you have an issue (maybe you dropped a light in a creek or a boom arm falls over in a parking lot) and you need to get it fixed, what kind of after sales support/service can you expect?    If you have an issue with the light what kind of warranty service can you expect?   If you blow a flash tube is it replaceable? 

  Third, modifiers?  What mount does the strobe use?   The Adorama Flashpoint line may be a rebranded Mettle, but according to Helen, it uses it's own mount, rather than the standard Bowens mount that the Mettles come with.  If you want the Mettle with the Bowens mount, you have to go through Cowboy Studio, not the most reliable seller if you have an issue.    This can matter when buying third part modifiers (although the new line of Glow modifiers looks quite promising, especially the "Grande" units).  As has been pointed out, PCB sells more lights in the U.S. than anyone else, by a wide margin (over 20,000 Alien Bees alone last year according to Buff), this means you shouldn't have an issue finding modifiers that fit the Balcar mount that PCB uses.  
  Beyond that Derrel is right, light is light.  It's more important that you know how to light than it is what light you use.  The issue becomes more a matter of what features you're willing to pay for.  Lights like the Flashpoint/Mettles are durable, and offer a great value for the money, but they lack the extra features of the more expensive systems like PCB.  Also remember that there is a such thing as_ too much_ power.   If you buy a handful of 640ws lights, you might struggle to dial them down enough indoors.  That's one of the great things about the Einsteins, they cover the full range from 640ws all the way down to 2.5ws, with color consistency all the way through the range.  The B1600 (640ws) only goes down to 20ws, if you want less than that you'll need another light with a lower power rating.   Not only that, but if you're using lights at various ends of their power spectrum you'll have to deal with the color shift that can be "awkward" to fix in post.   Nothing like having good color on the subject but a megenta cast on the background.    With lights like the Einsteins it's not an issue.  Of course, you pay for that luxury.


----------



## unpopular

Scatterbrained said:


> Also remember that there is a such thing as_ too much_ power.   If you buy a handful of 640ws lights, you might struggle to dial them down enough indoors.



This is true even of my 300ws mettles. I would recommend anyone with limited space to get neutral density gels.


----------



## Derrel

A good comparison of the bare-tube metered flash outputs of the Flashpoint 320M (150 Watt-seconds); Alien Bee 400 (160 W-s); Flashpoint 620M (300 W-s); Alien Bee 800 (320 W-s).

product review | adorama flashpoint studio gear | Clickin MomsClickin Moms

It's true: Paul C. Buff sells more amateur and hobbyist level lights than any makers in the USA. That's because Paul C. Buff is the ONLY company that has nearly three decades of smart, intense, targeted, intelligent, CONSTANT advertising and marketing, in places where it actually reaches hobbyists. For the entire decade of the 1990's and the 2000's, Paul C. Buff advertised with full-page ads in Shutterbug Magazine, every single month. He has done the BEST advertising, and the BEST marketing of ANY of the USA based flash companies.

Paul C. Buff is # 1 in sales of entry level and mid-level lighting gear. Just as McDonald's is "America's top restaurant chain." They both got that way by advertising and marketing very well, for a long time. A lot of Buff gear breaks down and malfunctions, and they replace it willingly and quickly. it's like a messed up order at Mickey D's..they throw the bad order away, and give you new stuff. That's not the business model Speedotron or Photogenic or Dynalite have been built upon. Quite the opposite in fact;those manufacturers have been built on the idea of decades-long service under HEAVY use, and repair, not throw-away-and-ship-out-new when stuff breaks down.


----------



## WayneF

Derrel said:


> When you look at the a la carte price of the 3-outlet, 400 Watt-second RoadMax power pack, with its three-head outlet capacity, it's $915, so I think the two kits are pretty good deals.
> 
> Dynalite MP400 400W/s RoadMax Power Pack MP400 B&H Photo Video



But in pack systems,  that 400 watt seconds total is divided among all the heads.    Three heads, 400 ws / 3 = 133 ws each, maximum.  Which would be commonly usable in the studio, but power wise, it is not a good comparison to three monolights.



unpopular said:


> tldr - but in case it hasn't already been mentioned (and I am sure it must have been) power does not equate output. My super cheap 300ws Mettles (the brand that Adorama rebrands as Flashpoint) produce more light than the 400ws Alienbees according to their own spec sheets and my measurements.



There are other points even more tricky.   Flashpoint is not big on disclosing specs.  What is the angular coverage of the reflector that was metered for this comparison?  For example, the  Alienbees standard reflector is 80 degrees.  For others, anywhere from 35 to 50 degrees is common though, and thus even the same power concentrated into a narrow beam is always much stronger than a dispersed wide beam.  More like comparing a concentrated spot on the wall, versus lighting the entire wall.    For example, this does not specify anything, but it does not look like 80 degrees.
Flashpoint 7in Standard Reflector f/ Bowens Light Units B404

   A narrow beam meters well, but it counts for nothing in a softbox or similar - where you need actual power for wider coverage.  Just saying, we need some details to know anything at all.


I always worry about apples and oranges.


----------



## Scatterbrained

Derrel said:


> A good comparison of the bare-tube metered flash outputs of the Flashpoint 320M (150 Watt-seconds); Alien Bee 400 (160 W-s); Flashpoint 620M (300 W-s); Alien Bee 800 (320 W-s).
> 
> product review | adorama flashpoint studio gear | Clickin MomsClickin Moms
> 
> It's true: Paul C. Buff sells more amateur and hobbyist level lights than any makers in the USA. That's because Paul C. Buff is the ONLY company that has nearly three decades of smart, intense, targeted, intelligent, CONSTANT advertising and marketing, in places where it actually reaches hobbyists. For the entire decade of the 1990's and the 2000's, Paul C. Buff advertised with full-page ads in Shutterbug Magazine, every single month. He has done the BEST advertising, and the BEST marketing of ANY of the USA based flash companies.
> 
> Paul C. Buff is # 1 in sales of entry level and mid-level lighting gear. Just as McDonald's is "America's top restaurant chain." They both got that way by advertising and marketing very well, for a long time. A lot of Buff gear breaks down and malfunctions, and they replace it willingly and quickly. it's like a messed up order at Mickey D's..they throw the bad order away, and give you new stuff. That's not the business model Speedotron or Photogenic or Dynalite have been built upon. Quite the opposite in fact;those manufacturers have been built on the idea of decades-long service under HEAVY use, and repair, not throw-away-and-ship-out-new when stuff breaks down.



   No issues with mine so far, and I use them almost daily.  (looks for crossed fingers smiley)

It's funny, because when I go to DisneyWorld (about 4 times a year)  they have PCB lights everywhere.  The same goes for all the low buck franchise portrait studios that I've seen (though most are out of business now around here).   It's not just hobbyists using them.    They offer a level of functionality at a price point.   The same goes for every other light on the market.  The issue is, what features do you want and what are you willing to pay?


----------



## WayneF

I have four Alienbees.  They've been great, but one did fail after eight years.  They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75.  Same serial number was returned to me.  I call it mighty great service.

Try that with some of the others.  The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.


----------



## hombredelmar

Derrel said:


> I meant for $2100 or so you get two, separate power packs and three MH 2015 Road Flash Heads, which are $342 each at B&H Photo right now.
> 
> Dynalite MH2015 Road Flash Head MH2015 B&H Photo Video
> 
> These weigh 1.9 pound each--VERY light for a studio flash head. When you look at the a la carte price of the 3-outlet, 400 Watt-second RoadMax power pack, with its three-head outlet capacity, it's $915, so I think the two kits are pretty good deals.
> 
> Dynalite MP400 400W/s RoadMax Power Pack MP400 B&H Photo Video
> 
> I myself however, think that LESS power, and "more lights" is often what is needed, so I would look at a slightly different power pack as the basis of my kit. The Dynalite MP400 Roadmax PM power pack--a slightly different one than in the above kits. It weighs 4.2 pounds, has 1.0 second recycle time, *a BUILT-IN 32-channel Pocket Wizard Receiver, *IR slave, and optical slave, 6-stop power range, and this is the critical; difference, it has *FOUR head outlets*. This pack is split into two channels, each with full/half/quarter power switches, for seven basic power settings, plus 2/10 stop click-stop adjustment.
> 
> To "me", that is the idea setup for location jobs. A SMALL, light, rugged, SIMPLE , 400 Watt-second, two-channel, symmetrical/asymmetrical, click-stop regulated pack from the best name in this kind of lighting. With today's cameras, 400 Watt-seconds of flash is very useful for many jobs. I own three 400 Watt-second packs myself.
> 
> The thing about the MP400: it has FULL/HALF/QUARTER power options, on two different separate switches. THAT is awesome, and a most useful option. The MP400 is probably the finest 400 W-s pack made currently.




Thanks Derrel, for the past two days I got so much info that I will need to process!
Thank you for your contribution. 
One thing, when I was researching on this particular brand I have found that the accessories (soft boxes, ambrellas and so on are kind of expensive compare to other brands).
Do you think I will be able to find third party accessories that would be compatible for this particular brand (Dynalite) ?


----------



## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.
> 
> Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.



How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power? 
Have you ever noticed anything?
Thanks


----------



## Scatterbrained

hombredelmar said:


> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.
> 
> Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
> Have you ever noticed anything?
> Thanks
Click to expand...


You'll notice it, but it's correctable.  It's a common issue with lights that use that kind of circuitry.  That's one of the reasons why the new generation of lights like the Einsteins and new Profotos, etc, are such a big deal.


----------



## Derrel

hombredelmar said:
			
		

> One thing, when I was researching on this particular brand I have found that the accessories (soft boxes, ambrellas and so on are kind of expensive compare to other brands).
> Do you think I will be able to find third party accessories that would be compatible for this particular brand (Dynalite) ?



Umbrellas vary in price from $7 made in CHina e-Bay specials to $159 or more models made by big-name lighting companies, but keep in minmd: umbrellas are pretty much brand-agnostic; the umbrellas sold by the manufacturers (like Speedotron or Norman or Dynalite) are models they feel will not fall apart or disgrace their brand, but you're free to buy others. ALso, some of the double-fold models, which are ultra-compact, cost more than single-fold umbrellas.

As far as softbox speedrings: I would buy the Chimera speed rings designed for Speedotron Brown Line. These speed rings use an aluminum shaft mounted underneath the ring, and mount the speedring to the light head AS IF it were an umbrella. Part of the reason Dynalite accessories cost more is that Dynalite is one of VERY few manufacturers whose light heads all have a BUILT-IN reflector, and do NOT need an accessory reflector. That means you never need to pack pesky reflectors if you're good with the 140 degree beam spread of the head "as-it-sits".

Prices for accessories are part of system electronic flash. Look at the Profoto "globe" for over $600--THEN think about how much the Dynalite accessories cost. *My impression from your OTHER thread is that you want a location flash kit*, not something optimized for in-studio shooting of small table top photography. That's why I suggested the DynaLite pack with built in 32-channel PocketWizard triggering, IR triggering, and optical slave, as well as PC outlet triggering. Dynalite is fully professional gear...this is NOT hobbyist stuff. This is 25-30 year gear. This is the brand Sports Illustrated shooters and most arenas in the USA use. Speedotron and Dynalite own that business. Paul C. BUff is not even in the building.

As Scatterbrained suggested, there **is** such a thing as "too much power". My experience is that a 400 Watt-second power pack with three, or four lights dividing up that amount of power, is just about right for location shoots; not too heavy, easy to pack, and you can have FOUR lights split up 7 basic ways, with incremental click-stop control over output. There is a reason this system has been designed as it has, and there's a reason the 400 W-s pack has been around for 40+ years.


----------



## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.
> 
> Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
> Have you ever noticed anything?
> Thanks
Click to expand...



Sure, they become a little red at low power, like any and every other voltage controlled flash.  And like every speedlight becomes a little blue.
Any other expectation is naive (except the Einsteins offer a solution).  Flash tube spectrum changes with power level (amps of current through the tube).
It is easy to deal with, esp in studio light sessions. Just put a $5 Porta Brace White Balance card in the first test picture.  WB becomes quite a trivial issue.


In regard to red color shift, it is merely a fact of life, and make no mistake - the Alienbees are no different than any brand.  Alienbees do turn down to as far as 1/32 power, which is a little lower than others that only go to 1/16 power.  1/16 will be less color shift than 1/32.

At least this company honestly explains the deal to us:  Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum ? View topic - Color/White Balance Balance Explained

Says:
Color Temperature drops at 75° to 90°K per f-stop of power reduction (typically 350 - 400° variation from full to 1/32 power).

R/G axis tints typically shift by 7 to 10 units over the same power adjustment range.

Flash duration typically lengthens by about double over the same power adjustment range.


No other company will mention color, at most they only give us a phony standard number. They are not going to discuss color, it would shatter illusions.   Einstein likely will change their ways again, when they can figure it out.

We hear lots of idiotic user comments (talking without understanding), and users buying the high price brands do like to imagine their lights are perfect, but of course, they use flash tubes too, and are no different.
Profoto vs White Lightning vs Elinchrom Results - Pro Photo HOME

The Alienbees and White Lightnings are the same electrical design inside (according to designer Paul C Buff). The White Lightnings are just more robust construction, metal cases, etc.

I forgot to mention, when I had the repair done, I also asked for another PC sync cable. They threw one in for free.    It's one hell of company.


----------



## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have four Alienbees. They've been great, but one did fail after eight years. They repaired it for $40, which included return shipping. Actually, I added a flash tube to it while it was there, so it totaled $75. Same serial number was returned to me. I call it mighty great service.
> 
> Try that with some of the others. The cheap ones don't even have return addresses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is your Alienbees in terms of color temperature at lower power?
> Have you ever noticed anything?
> Thanks
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, they become a little red at low power, like any and every other voltage controlled flash. And like every speedlight becomes a little blue.
> Any other expectation is naive (except the Einsteins offer a solution). Flash tube spectrum changes with power level (amps of current through the tube).
> It is easy to deal with, esp in studio light sessions. Just put a $5 Porta Brace White Balance card in the first test picture. WB becomes quite a trivial issue.
> 
> 
> In regard to red color shift, it is merely a fact of life, and make no mistake - the Alienbees are no different than any brand. Alienbees do turn down to as far as 1/32 power, which is a little lower than others that only go to 1/16 power. 1/16 will be less color shift than 1/32.
> 
> At least this company honestly explains the deal to us: Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum ? View topic - Color/White Balance Balance Explained
> 
> Says:
> Color Temperature drops at 75° to 90°K per f-stop of power reduction (typically 350 - 400° variation from full to 1/32 power).
> 
> R/G axis tints typically shift by 7 to 10 units over the same power adjustment range.
> 
> Flash duration typically lengthens by about double over the same power adjustment range.
> 
> 
> No other company will mention color, at most they only give us a phony standard number. They are not going to discuss color, it would shatter illusions. Einstein likely will change their ways again, when they can figure it out.
> 
> We hear lots of idiotic user comments (talking without understanding), and users buying the high price brands do like to imagine their lights are perfect, but of course, they use flash tubes too, and are no different.
> Profoto vs White Lightning vs Elinchrom Results - Pro Photo HOME
> 
> The Alienbees and White Lightnings are the same electrical design inside (according to designer Paul C Buff). The White Lightnings are just more robust construction, metal cases, etc.
> 
> I forgot to mention, when I had the repair done, I also asked for another PC sync cable. They threw one in for free.  It's one hell of company.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home


----------



## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home



If you mean the second link, it was just a test reporting measured color temperature, from full to minimum power, showing that three brands of better monolights all have very similar red shift at lower power levels.  Like 400+ degrees K shift to lower temp between full and 1/32 power, which is a red shift.  (One was 350K shift at 1/16 power).   No surprise, has to be, simply how flash tubes work when voltage is varied.

The first link was Paul C Buff explaining how his lights work, telling how it is, and disclosing the same information that the test measured.  The other brands don't discuss color shift, the less said the better.  Which supports some wrong notions.


----------



## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the link. I should tell you the truth, I looked at it and did not have a clue of what was going on there. However I printed out the chart and will try to analize it at home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the second link, it was just a test reporting measured color temperature, from full to minimum power, showing that three brands of better monolights all have very similar red shift at lower power levels. Like 400+ degrees K shift to lower temp between full and 1/32 power, which is a red shift. (One was 350K shift at 1/16 power). No surprise, has to be, simply how flash tubes work when voltage is varied.
> 
> The first link was Paul C Buff explaining how his lights work, telling how it is, and disclosing the same information that the test measured. The other brands don't discuss color shift, the less said the better. Which supports some wrong notions.
Click to expand...


Thanks WayneF for the explanation. Since you mentioned that the color temperature is fixable problem. I was wandering if that color shift effects white balance of the shot or it is something else and how long does it take to fix it in PS of Lightroom?
Thanks


----------



## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> Thanks WayneF for the explanation. Since you mentioned that the color temperature is fixable problem. I was wandering if that color shift effects white balance of the shot or it is something else and how long does it take to fix it in PS of Lightroom?
> Thanks




Yes, proper white balance is the entire point, the only reason we care about light color.    Any difference in actual light color and image WB setting causes incorrect color cast in the image, which needs to be corrected (for better color).  This correction is quite simple to do with a white balance card, and the card is not awkward to use in a studio session. 

Just to make the point extremely, for example set your digital camera to Daylight WB, and (shooting JPG), incorrectly take a picture indoors under your rooms incandescent lights (or with only the modeling lights on your studio lights).  Now that intentional error is about 2500K degrees or more of red shift temperature, instead of just 400K red shift, but it shows the problem clearly. We have to make our WB setting match our actual lights.   

Maybe see White Balance Correction, with or without Raw 

Or really better for this purpose, see Why shoot Raw?  which is about using Raw images, but which has a video you will notice (just below the top), which is in fact mostly about white balance (Raw allows easiest WB correction), under studio lights in the beginning, and later on about varied light sources.   If you can hang in there a few minutes, you will see a lot about correcting WB, easily.   Basically, we click the white card, and then we don't care what color the light was.


----------



## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks WayneF for the explanation. Since you mentioned that the color temperature is fixable problem. I was wandering if that color shift effects white balance of the shot or it is something else and how long does it take to fix it in PS of Lightroom?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, proper white balance is the entire point, the only reason we care about light color. Any difference in actual light color and image WB setting causes incorrect color cast in the image, which needs to be corrected (for better color). This correction is quite simple to do with a white balance card, and the card is not awkward to use in a studio session.
> 
> Just to make the point extremely, for example set your digital camera to Daylight WB, and (shooting JPG), incorrectly take a picture indoors under your rooms incandescent lights (or with only the modeling lights on your studio lights). Now that intentional error is about 2500K degrees or more of red shift temperature, instead of just 400K red shift, but it shows the problem clearly. We have to make our WB setting match our actual lights.
> 
> Maybe see White Balance Correction, with or without Raw
> 
> Or really better for this purpose, see Why shoot Raw? which is about using Raw images, but which has a video you will notice (just below the top), which is in fact mostly about white balance (Raw allows easiest WB correction), under studio lights in the beginning, and later on about varied light sources. If you can hang in there a few minutes, you will see a lot about correcting WB, easily. Basically, we click the white card, and then we don't care what color the light was.
Click to expand...


From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?! 
I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output


----------



## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?!
> I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output



Sure, that is the point.  If shooting Raw images, there is no loss in quality.  Multiple reasons, but Raw images have exactly the same data that the camera started with, and much better tools, and NEVER shift the data back and forth multiple times (like would be done in JPG).

If shooting JPG, there could be losses, for multiple reasons, but still, if poor WB, then corrected should be better than not corrected.  


Battery should not be a output problem, color or exposure.  Battery would affect recycle speed, and power level changes things regardless of power source,  but the decent flashes (speedlights too, running on AA batteries) have voltage regulators, probably better than 1%.  That aspect would not be different.


----------



## hombredelmar

WayneF said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?!
> I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, that is the point. If shooting Raw images, there is no loss in quality. Multiple reasons, but Raw images have exactly the same data that the camera started with, and much better tools, and NEVER shift the data back and forth multiple times (like would be done in JPG).
> 
> If shooting JPG, there could be losses, for multiple reasons, but still, if poor WB, then corrected should be better than not corrected.
> 
> 
> Battery should not be a output problem, color or exposure. Battery would affect recycle speed, and power level changes things regardless of power source, but the decent flashes (speedlights too, running on AA batteries) have voltage regulators, probably better than 1%. That aspect would not be different.
Click to expand...



Thank you WayneF


----------



## hombredelmar

I guess all has been said in terms of the differences between the two flash units
Thank you all for your participation!!!


----------



## Village Idiot

hombredelmar said:


> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks WayneF for the explanation. Since you mentioned that the color temperature is fixable problem. I was wandering if that color shift effects white balance of the shot or it is something else and how long does it take to fix it in PS of Lightroom?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, proper white balance is the entire point, the only reason we care about light color. Any difference in actual light color and image WB setting causes incorrect color cast in the image, which needs to be corrected (for better color). This correction is quite simple to do with a white balance card, and the card is not awkward to use in a studio session.
> 
> Just to make the point extremely, for example set your digital camera to Daylight WB, and (shooting JPG), incorrectly take a picture indoors under your rooms incandescent lights (or with only the modeling lights on your studio lights). Now that intentional error is about 2500K degrees or more of red shift temperature, instead of just 400K red shift, but it shows the problem clearly. We have to make our WB setting match our actual lights.
> 
> Maybe see White Balance Correction, with or without Raw
> 
> Or really better for this purpose, see Why shoot Raw? which is about using Raw images, but which has a video you will notice (just below the top), which is in fact mostly about white balance (Raw allows easiest WB correction), under studio lights in the beginning, and later on about varied light sources. If you can hang in there a few minutes, you will see a lot about correcting WB, easily. Basically, we click the white card, and then we don't care what color the light was.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?!
> I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output
Click to expand...


 Late to the thread, but if you're talking about fixing the AB color shift in post, it becomes harder if you have two different colored lights with one being warmer than the other. Fixing an over all color shift if not difficult, but if you have a half powered light vs one at the lowest power with a magenta color, you'll have two competing white balances to deal with. It doesn't matter if you're shooting in RAW or whatever, at that point it becomes a pain to fix in post.


----------



## Mach0

Village Idiot said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, proper white balance is the entire point, the only reason we care about light color. Any difference in actual light color and image WB setting causes incorrect color cast in the image, which needs to be corrected (for better color). This correction is quite simple to do with a white balance card, and the card is not awkward to use in a studio session.
> 
> Just to make the point extremely, for example set your digital camera to Daylight WB, and (shooting JPG), incorrectly take a picture indoors under your rooms incandescent lights (or with only the modeling lights on your studio lights). Now that intentional error is about 2500K degrees or more of red shift temperature, instead of just 400K red shift, but it shows the problem clearly. We have to make our WB setting match our actual lights.
> 
> Maybe see White Balance Correction, with or without Raw
> 
> Or really better for this purpose, see Why shoot Raw? which is about using Raw images, but which has a video you will notice (just below the top), which is in fact mostly about white balance (Raw allows easiest WB correction), under studio lights in the beginning, and later on about varied light sources. If you can hang in there a few minutes, you will see a lot about correcting WB, easily. Basically, we click the white card, and then we don't care what color the light was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?!
> I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Late to the thread, but if you're talking about fixing the AB color shift in post, it becomes harder if you have two different colored lights with one being warmer than the other. Fixing an over all color shift if not difficult, but if you have a half powered light vs one at the lowest power with a magenta color, you'll have two competing white balances to deal with. It doesn't matter if you're shooting in RAW or whatever, at that point it becomes a pain to fix in post.
Click to expand...


This !


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## hombredelmar

Village Idiot said:


> hombredelmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WayneF said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, proper white balance is the entire point, the only reason we care about light color. Any difference in actual light color and image WB setting causes incorrect color cast in the image, which needs to be corrected (for better color). This correction is quite simple to do with a white balance card, and the card is not awkward to use in a studio session.
> 
> Just to make the point extremely, for example set your digital camera to Daylight WB, and (shooting JPG), incorrectly take a picture indoors under your rooms incandescent lights (or with only the modeling lights on your studio lights). Now that intentional error is about 2500K degrees or more of red shift temperature, instead of just 400K red shift, but it shows the problem clearly. We have to make our WB setting match our actual lights.
> 
> Maybe see White Balance Correction, with or without Raw
> 
> Or really better for this purpose, see Why shoot Raw? which is about using Raw images, but which has a video you will notice (just below the top), which is in fact mostly about white balance (Raw allows easiest WB correction), under studio lights in the beginning, and later on about varied light sources. If you can hang in there a few minutes, you will see a lot about correcting WB, easily. Basically, we click the white card, and then we don't care what color the light was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand is that I would be able to correct WB in post-production in batch process unless without any lose in quality?!
> I hope that battery operated moonlight has constant power output
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Late to the thread, but if you're talking about fixing the AB color shift in post, it becomes harder if you have two different colored lights with one being warmer than the other. Fixing an over all color shift if not difficult, but if you have a half powered light vs one at the lowest power with a magenta color, you'll have two competing white balances to deal with. It doesn't matter if you're shooting in RAW or whatever, at that point it becomes a pain to fix in post.
Click to expand...



Thank you for the info and it is never too late for good suggestion.  
What are different colored lights?


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## WayneF

hombredelmar said:


> What are different colored lights?




Different kinds of light sources are of different color.  For example, sunlight and incandescent light require different white balance, because incandescent is orange in color, greatly different color than sunlight (which is much more blue than incandescent is).     But we can only set ONE white balance.    If this is ANY surprise, the first thing to do is to take a picture in sunlight but incorrectly using incandescent WB, and take one indoors in incandescent light, but incorrectly using sunlight WB.  See?

Also two flashes can be slightly different colors.  Even two identical flash units operated at different power levels are slightly different colors. Flashes change colors with power level (the Einstein lights can be considered an exception - they have a constant color mode that is actual, not just advertising hype).  Speedlights for example shift color with power level.  It makes perfect white balance more difficult to find.

If trying to light a large area, like a room, with different lighing (like sun and incandescent), then proper color is virtually impossible (without heroic specific filtering efforts).  Any White Balance we choose might be correct for one light and its area, but is wrong for another type of light and its area. This would be called a case of "different color lights".  

Portrait sessions can be a special case, not quite as difficult, when the area is small (a facial portrait), and the lights are similar, and cover the same small area.    Both the main and fill light are on the subject,  normally NOT at the same power level, and so can be slightly different color, but there is sort of one resulting color, which we can match for white balance (methods like a white card, etc).   Maybe it is not a theoretically perfect concept, but commonly not much practical problem (in typical small and evenly lighted areas).


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