# Already did the work - the client wants their money back!



## tinkerbell86440 (Aug 2, 2011)

Lead in - Client calls to make appointment to discuss photos and costs. Appointment - Client comes in, we discuss costs, and view some photos. Client makes appointment for photo shoot for her senior portraits (parent makes all the agreements - verbal). The costs were the sitting (1-2 hours, clothing changes, in studio), also chose the CD for additional cost - NO prints. Senior comes in with mother and her choices for changes (including an animal - which was fine and agreed upon). Shoot takes about 1 3/4 hrs. Took about 200 photos. Parent pays for the photos, sitting. Makes another appointment for other senior in 1 week. 

Edit photos, and sends lo-quality examples by email to parent about 3 days later. Did minor edits to about 10 photos, the "package" was to include 5 - 6 full edits. Minor edited photos are posted to viewing site 1 day later. We are at 5 days after shoot. Client knew they were supposed to contact me to pick the full edits in the next 2 days by the next appointment. No contact - Appointment day for second shoot, after waiting for 1 hour - called client and left message. No contact, emailed client next day. We are now at 8 days. Emailed client a couple of more times, and called 3 times - only messages left over the next 2 weeks. Three weeks go by!! In the meantime I have completed numerous other sessions. The client emails me about 1 additional week later (4 weeks) saying they didn't like the photos (they were basically not edited) and wanted their money back! I edited a few anyway and emailed them to the client to show what they could look like (they were not bad photos, the backgrounds were 'plain' colors and I put the subject on specific backgrounds related to clothing). 1.5 weeks later, same thing they were "horrible" and "fake" (well of course). So in the meantime, I checked seniors online fb account and saw she went out and got more photos on location (which I also offered). I refused to refund the entire amount only the amount for the CD. I explained that I did a lot of work, they initially approved and accepted, and that I couldn't refund the entire amount. Since I didn't have written contract (I do that now after the incident), but a verbal one - what was the 'legal' thing to do? 

In addition the photos were pretty good, and I did get a release to use the photos for advertisements, etc. I am doing that and get a lot of compliments on them.


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## NikonME (Aug 2, 2011)

I'd say sometimes it's the moral thing that's important if you want to keep a good name.

You can post some pictures here and we can tell you if the photos were good and you are being rooked, or if the photos were lacking.


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 2, 2011)

Always have a contract.  

You don't have a written agreement.  You have a verbal agreement which turns into a he said/she said mess.  Either way, your name is dragged through the mud.  Whatever the sitting fee was, IMO, it's not worth the negative PR.

Sounds like you got your contract together now and next time, all expectations will be layed out in advance.  In this case, it wasn't(or at least you can't prove it, which is the same thing).

I would probably just give the money back and take it as a lesson learned.


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## Authorized (Aug 2, 2011)

It doesn't matter.  You say to her... "If you go to a bar, order a drink, then drink it.... Do you ask the bartender for a refund just because you don't like it?"


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 2, 2011)

Authorized said:


> It doesn't matter.  You say to her... "If you go to a bar, order a drink, then drink it.... Do you ask the bartender for a refund just because you don't like it?"


I have...many times.  Actually, I've never had to ask for my money back.  I have never been in a bar or a restaraunt where I sent my food or drink back because I didn't like it where they didn't offer to refund my money or replace it with something I would like.


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## Authorized (Aug 2, 2011)

I think you're missing the point.


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 3, 2011)

Authorized said:


> I think you're missing the point.



I don't think so.  The OP's case is borderline and there isn't a contract laying out terms and conditions.

The OP's 'client' paid the OP for Senior Portraits.  They didn't like those portraits, aren't going to use those portraits, and then went and paid another photographer to take their senior portraits.  The OP doesn't have a contract.  The OP has a verbal agreement in which I'm sure the words 'money for senior portraits' was probably said at least once.  

Who's right?  Probably the OP.  But what difference does that make when her client tells all their friends about how 'unreasonable' the OP is being about photos that they didn't even want?

It's one sitting fee.  IMO, it's just simply not worth the hassle or the ill-will.

Also, I wasn't going to mention it originally, but it has to be said...without a contract, I wonder just how much of a 'business' the OP is running.  Insurance?  Taxes?  Would she feel comfortable explaining her case to a small claims court based on a verbal agreement?  How much scrutiny can this 'transaction' really afford?


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## Authorized (Aug 3, 2011)

You've definitely got points.  I would never do business without a contract, period.  Regardless, is somebody that was unhappy with your shots going to recommend you anyway?  I would actually like to see the shots.


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## Virtuosos (Aug 3, 2011)

Curious as to whether or not it's going to be a 1post type of deal here...

but on the off-chance that the OP returns, then I am glad you learned your lesson...granted it should of been the first thing you ever did but better late than never. As far as the money goes, either a full refund or a half-refund (since you did do work) would be the best option...even though these people sound like idiots who don't have the respect to atleast contact you within a reasonable time.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 3, 2011)

Unfortunately the photographer is the only one that will end up getting screwed, either by having to bite the bullet and give all the money back, or keeping the money and risk losing future business by having their name linked to an unhappy client.  If the client wasn't happy with the work then thye should have told the photographer that on seeing the first photos.  I would like to see a few examples of the photos that were shot.

I use very few contracts in my dealings with clients, I grew up where a handshake was considered a deal and it was respected.  Now people are so quick to sue, will make false claims to justify their side of an agreement.  The word "trust" means nothing to some people in business, contracts are the safety net now.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

post the pics.


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

Virtuosos said:


> Curious as to whether or not it's going to be a 1post type of deal here...



If the OP feels she is in the right, she will be back and post the photos. If she was just hoping we would blindly pick her side because we are photographers, and we didn't, than she may not return.


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## jwbryson1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:

"The OP's 'client' paid the OP for Senior Portraits.  They didn't like  those portraits, aren't going to use those portraits, and then went and  paid another photographer to take their senior portraits.  The OP  doesn't have a contract. The OP has a verbal agreement in which I'm  sure the words 'money for senior portraits' was probably said at least  once."

I'm an attorney and I assure you the OP most CERTAINLY has a contract.  Only a layperson would suggest that every contract must be in writing.  Simply not true.  Verbal contracts are entered into every day and they are as enforceable as a written contractual agreement.  Only a handful of very specific types of agreements must be in writing to be legally enforceable (sale of land, etc.)

Whether or not they want to agree to terminate the contract is a separate issue and I'll leave it up to those of you who making a living doing photography work whether it is "worth it" to let this one go or not.


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 3, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> "The OP's 'client' paid the OP for Senior Portraits. They didn't like those portraits, aren't going to use those portraits, and then went and paid another photographer to take their senior portraits. The OP doesn't have a contract. The OP has a verbal agreement in which I'm sure the words 'money for senior portraits' was probably said at least once."
> 
> ...



Ok, verbal agreement = contract. Got it. Now, tell me how that doesn't get into a he said/she said mess. From my earlier post, I also said, 





> You don't have a written agreement. You have a verbal agreement which turns into a he said/she said mess. Either way, your name is dragged through the mud. Whatever the sitting fee was, IMO, it's not worth the negative PR.


I also said 


> Who's right? Probably the OP. But what difference does that make when her client tells all their friends about how 'unreasonable' the OP is being about photos that they didn't even want?
> 
> It's one sitting fee. IMO, it's just simply not worth the hassle or the ill-will.
> 
> Also, I wasn't going to mention it originally, but it has to be said...without a contract, I wonder just how much of a 'business' the OP is running. Insurance? Taxes? Would she feel comfortable explaining her case to a small claims court based on a verbal agreement? How much scrutiny can this 'transaction' really afford?


As an attorney, I would expect you not to cherry-pick small portions of what I have written. I understand a verbal agreement can be a legally binding contract. I also understand, as I'm sure you do, that both parties will have their own interpretation of what was said.

I am not an attorney.  I do deal with dozens of verbal and written agreements all day of amounts anywhere between $80 bucks and hundreds of thousands.  I have found the quickest way to screw things up is to not have documentation of what my expectations are and what the compensation will be.  It doesn't have to be a contract.  E-mails work just fine for me, but anytime I'm agreeing to something over the phone, I always send an e-mail to recap everything and make sure we are on the same page.  It may not be necessary legally, but it avoids a lot of headaches.


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> "The OP's 'client' paid the OP for Senior Portraits.  They didn't like  those portraits, aren't going to use those portraits, and then went and  paid another photographer to take their senior portraits.  The OP  doesn't have a contract. The OP has a verbal agreement in which I'm  sure the words 'money for senior portraits' was probably said at least  once."
> 
> ...



If the client, and her parents and maybe a friend or two who claim they were there that day, tell the judge that the photographer in question said she charges up front for the work but offers a 100% satisfaction guarentee, but the one photographer denies that. Who does the judge find in favor for? A written contract for services may not be required legally, but IS required for the protection of everyone involved.


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ok, verbal agreement = contract.  Got it.  Now, tell me how that doesn't get into a he said/she said mess.



I guess we were replying at the same time. I agree 100%


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## IgsEMT (Aug 3, 2011)

Hope I won't sound like a broken record but thing should be in WRITING. Also if you are a member of PPA, they cover complaints like that w/ their lawyers. 
Good Luck


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## boomer (Aug 3, 2011)

I just google serached your screen name and i think i found some of your work. Is this your website and Facebook? If so, I am not all that suprised that they were unhappy with your photos. Your consistency don't seem to be quite there. Some pictures are ok and other are not ok. I also notice that you have a lot of unedited work on your Facebook exc. It's just my opinion, but i would never do that as i would want clients to know what the finished product would look like.

Not trying to flame you, just trying to give you some honest feedback. You seem to really enjoy taking photographs for people but i think you need to work on your photography and editing basics. I think using this forum could be a nice tool for elevating your work 

Rona Philpott Photography - Local Business - Mohave Valley, AZ | Facebook

Website
Home


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

I searched and I saw it too, but just didn't want to post it publicly. I am sure other members found it as well. Her username links with her name, twitter, facebook, website, etc.


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## cvbikeguy (Aug 3, 2011)

Don't mean to be rude but the pictures are not amazing but then again if the client had previously looked at your portfolio, they should have know what they were getting.


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## memento (Aug 3, 2011)

I am an attorney. If you verbally agree, I will represent you in small claims court. Just send me $1,000 (USD) and we'll sue the pants off this bi tch!


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

The question for the photographer is.. Do you give the money back and let the situation die or do you keep the money and have the customer become very vocal to all of her friends, in life and on facebook, about how poor the photos were.

Me, I try to always remain professional. My name means more to me than the money from one shoot. I would give the money back with the clear understanding that without payment and a signed release, that the original images belong to me, that after the refund she has NO rights to use or print said images.

If the shots were good, as you stated, you will not be out completely because you can use the photos for your portfolio.


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## memento (Aug 3, 2011)

how far is Mohave Valley from Phoenix?
i'm visiting my brother in a few weeks. you can just pay me then..


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## memento (Aug 3, 2011)

NikonME said:


> The question for the photographer is.. Do you give the money back and let the situation die or do you keep the money



This is America bro, we dont give **** back... we sue!! 









fyi - hit me up if you need some representation too


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## NikonME (Aug 3, 2011)

memento said:


> NikonME said:
> 
> 
> > The question for the photographer is.. Do you give the money back and let the situation die or do you keep the money
> ...



_We_ and *Me* are two different balls of wax, man.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 3, 2011)

I had a look at the photos on the website and won't say anything negative against any of the photos, they speak for themselves.

 I enjoyed the photo restoration though, it was almost impossible to see the 5 hours of work making it look like it had been restored, except you can  see where all the repairs were made.  Why do people that obviously don't have the skills to restore photos claim to be able to do it?  I don't really need an answer to that question, the answer is because photoshop has given them the right to say they can.  I suppose it's the same people that claim to be photographers when they don't have the skills.


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## Christie Photo (Aug 3, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> "The OP's 'client' paid the OP for Senior Portraits.  They didn't like  those portraits, aren't going to use those portraits, and then went and  paid another photographer to take their senior portraits.  The OP  doesn't have a contract. The OP has a verbal agreement in which I'm  sure the words 'money for senior portraits' was probably said at least  once."
> 
> I'm an attorney and I assure you the OP most CERTAINLY has a contract.  Only a layperson would suggest that every contract must be in writing.  Simply not true.



Thank you.

I've been shooting senior portraits for 35 years and have NEVER asked anyone to sign a contract.  In the first place, most would not be enforceable as many seniors are minors when the arrangement is made.

More important, I'm always amazed to hear a photographer's first reaction to a dissatisfied customer is, "Do I still get paid?"

I've had disappointed clients.  My gut reaction is, "What can I do for you now?  More photography?  Refund?"  I sure don't expect (or want) anyone to pay me for something they don't like.  If anything, I feel I owe them for wasting their time.

I guarantee satisfaction.  I always have.  I will not ask anybody to risk their time and money with me if they have to wonder if I can get the job done to their satisfaction.

-Pete


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 3, 2011)

Christie Photo said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



You are also handling this completely different and have more experience than the OP.  Having been doing it for 35 years, I'm sure you have a reputation and people come to you based on that.  You don't accept money unless the client is satisfied and probably produce superior work.

I'm not thinking you are in the same situation as the OP.  The OP wants their client to pay for photos that they aren't happy with, the client has asked for a refund, the OP thinks the client is at fault, the client thinks the OP is at fault, and there is no written contract.  It's a mess.

From what it sounds like, you wouldn't put yourself in this situation to start with, so a contract outlining what happens if it does would be kind of pointless.


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## Christie Photo (Aug 3, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> From what it sounds like, you wouldn't put yourself in this situation to start with...



Really, we all put ourselves in this position every time we take on a job.  Every customer has particular needs and wants, and we accept the challenge to meet them in exchange for payment.

Each of us has to realize we don't hit a home run every time at bat, but we are expected to get on base.  Occasionally, we whiff out.  We should stand ready to be fully accountable for that event when it does happen.

-Pete


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## MTVision (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm not a professional photographer but personally I would give the money back even though you did the work.  The customer is always right! If they aren't using them and they paid another person to take pictures then they should get their money back.


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## tinkerbell86440 (Aug 4, 2011)

I do have contracts, I pay taxes, and have insurance.  I had her signature on a "sales order" form.  I would definitely feel comfortable going to court if I had to.  So as to an actual written contract laying out all the terms, no, not with that client - MY mistake.  As I said I believe it was buyer's remorse.  The photographer she used after me (another client told me, later - not by my prompting) was her sister's boyfriend (also in high school).  My other client's heard about it (acquaintances in high school) and asked me about the photos, which I had proudly displayed, and liked them and asked for similar setups.  No complaints, and my prices are not inexpensive, but, they are not high either - the area I am in is a low-income kind of area, so, I can not reasonably charge what someone might charge in the "big city".  BTW, they client did use one of the photos on her social media site, which I could have done something about because of no copyright release - but didn't.  The young woman had sent me a "threatening" email, saying she would basically bad-mouth me to all her friends (she didn't).  It letter was pretty harsh, but I handled it with business sense, and the mother who was the adult in this transaction, apologized for it.  

I will post when I can the photos.  I do have a legal release for them.  Signed by the parent.  This was definitely a lesson learned.


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