# Prints vs. giving a CD



## NCrockett (Sep 24, 2010)

In this age of digital, I am struggling with how to simply charge for prints rather than give people a CD. The simple fact is- people know it isn't difficult to make a CD. I do mostly children's portraits and family photography. I don't have a website yet for people to view their photos, so they come to my home and we go through it together. That way, I can add vignettes, black and white, etc to their liking. However, I feel like I'm somehow ripping them off if I tell them a charge for each print.

It seems that if you go to a studio, you expect to have to pay for prints. When someone is working out of their home, the expectation is that you will put their pictures on a CD and let them make the prints. How do you handle this kind of request? Do you give people the option with two different rates? A minimal sitting fee, plus x amount for prints vs. a total fee that includes CD and the right to print?


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## tirediron (Sep 24, 2010)

NCrockett said:


> ...give people the option with two different rates? A minimal sitting fee, plus x amount for prints vs. a total fee that includes CD and the right to print?


 
:thumbup:


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## g-fi (Sep 24, 2010)

I think you're really cheating yourself if you give in to that feeling of having to give away a CD (and if you're not really charging for that CD and print rights, you're giving it away). A very successful wedding photographer in my area doesn't even offer a CD until you hit his $14,000 packages. Once you give away that CD, you give up all control over the quality of your prints. 

I think it's one of the hardest lessons for photographers to learn as they become business people, that people pay for quality, and what they don't pay for, they don't respect or see as quality. You may feel like you are going to lose out on clients if you don't offer a CD with a basic package, but you're not. TRUST that nickel and dime clients will treat you like a nickel and dime photographer and be difficult. Don't get trapped into the fear that if you don't give a client the moon for free that they are not going to come back. The clients that will make you profitable as a photographer come back because they love your work and believe you are worth the money, the other ones *are not coming back anyway*. If a client questions why they are not getting a CD, a polite but firm "CDs are available with Packages X, Y and Z" is enough. 

Now, along with that goes the unsaid stipulation- make sure your work is good enough to insure that your clients feel like their money is well spent with you.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 24, 2010)

What if you have them sign a model release in which you specify no editing of the photograph(y) and such? Or does that not apply when they pay for their photos?


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## DC-Photog (Sep 25, 2010)

Portraits: I never sell CDs for portrait sessions - only prints. You don't even need your own web site to do it. Get an account with Pictage or Smugmug. Upload to password-protected client galleries and give the client the link. Sit back and wait. You'll get the print sales.

Weddings: Yes, I sell the CD, but I charge for it in my package rates. I do include the engagement session portraits, which I also charge for on the CD. That is the only time a put portraits on a CD.


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## NCrockett (Sep 25, 2010)

G-fi-

Thank you. You make some excellent points. Losing control over the quality of the print is a huge deal. What ends up on their wall is ultimately the representation of my work and if they print at wal-mart, the autocolor feature completely ruins the print.

I also like your advice on nickel and dime people. So true. I guess it's just having the confidence to make that leap and trust my ability. My work is good enough and I have spent 6 years learning and practicing. I need to find pricing that fits my ability and the value of my time. 

As suggested by g-fi and tirediron, I think I will come up with pricing for both and give the CD price a significant boost. 

I've never looked into pictage or smugmug. Sounds like a great alternative to having people come to my home. They can look at their leisure and take their time deciding their favorites. 

Thanks!


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## Robin Usagani (Sep 25, 2010)

For family pics.. really I have no use of their photos. I rather they have the digital files because it will be very important for them to preserve the memory. OK, so lets say you do 1 session, how much money earned do you hope to get per session from selling prints? I would take that number and price the CD for that much. YOu burn the CD, give it to them... let them print whatever however they want, DONE.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 25, 2010)

DC-Photog said:


> Portraits: I never sell CDs for portrait sessions - only prints. You don't even need your own web site to do it. Get an account with Pictage or Smugmug. Upload to password-protected client galleries and give the client the link. Sit back and wait. You'll get the print sales.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## njw1224 (Sep 25, 2010)

NCrockett said:


> G-fi-
> 
> Thank you. You make some excellent points. Losing control over the quality of the print is a huge deal. What ends up on their wall is ultimately the representation of my work and if they print at wal-mart, the autocolor feature completely ruins the print.



You've made your own argument here! It's really a decision of whether you just want to sell your service (the disk) or your art (the prints). Would a painter ever scan their work and just sell the digital image, hell no. Why should a photographer give up control over the reproduction quality (and quantity) of their work? Event photography, such as a wedding, is a bit different, and most of us are selling image disks in one form or fashion for events. But portrait photography is largely still a pay-per-print type of delivery. So stick to your guns!


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## Robert Pope (Sep 26, 2010)

Ditto to what most are saying.

If a bad print ends up in a client home none of their friends or family will think, "Gee that's a bad print." They will think, "That's a bad photographer." Not what you want.

I do provide disks but only with the top package and under the stipulation that they promise, promise to go to a professional lab. Most ask me to have them printed at my lab since they've already seen the amazing quality from their engagement photographs.

As soon as a client sees a SINGLE print from my pro lab I have never had anyone want to print their own. NEVER.


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## DennyCrane (Sep 26, 2010)

The option also exists to lower the quality of the CD images so they're acceptable viewed on a PC or digital picture frame, but are not print quality. And you point out that they're not for printing. And I'd still charge dearly, since you lose control over the dissemination of your work.


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## IgsEMT (Sep 26, 2010)

for my in-studio session, clients have an option to buy a cd or buy prints.


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## Big Mike (Sep 27, 2010)

> The option also exists to lower the quality of the CD images so they're acceptable viewed on a PC or digital picture frame, but are not print quality. And you point out that they're not for printing. And I'd still charge dearly, since you lose control over the dissemination of your work.


The problem with that, is that many people are fairly ignorant about digital images...size, resolution etc.  Even if you tell them, some people will still try to print images if they have them.  



> In this age of digital, I am struggling with how to simply charge for prints rather than give people a CD. The simple fact is- people know it isn't difficult to make a CD. I do mostly children's portraits and family photography. I don't have a website yet for people to view their photos, so they come to my home and we go through it together. That way, I can add vignettes, black and white, etc to their liking. However, I feel like I'm somehow ripping them off if I tell them a charge for each print.
> 
> It seems that if you go to a studio, you expect to have to pay for prints. When someone is working out of their home, the expectation is that you will put their pictures on a CD and let them make the prints. How do you handle this kind of request? Do you give people the option with two different rates? A minimal sitting fee, plus x amount for prints vs. a total fee that includes CD and the right to print?


This is a common issue that many photographers have been struggling with for a while now.  There doesn't seem to be a 'right' way to do it...some people are very successful doing it one way, and other people are very successful doing it another way.  

You need to find what work for you...something that sells well and something that sits well with the values of you & your business.


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## dubaifor (Sep 29, 2010)

The problem is that when people see unfinished work they´d remember you for that. You cannot edit 500 pictures, let them choose the ones they like best and then deliver only those finalized shots.
+971 50 896 80 42 - Francisco Fernandez - Dubai Photographer


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## NCrockett (Sep 29, 2010)

So much to think about. There have been some good points made in this discussion. I am leaning toward working out packages that can include prints or a CD and charge accordingly. Digital has created some great opportunities, but also presented different challenges. Thank you everyone for your input.


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## Big Mike (Sep 29, 2010)

Just keep in mind that you are selling your 'work'....your expertise, your creation.  You are not just selling the paper that the photos are printed or, or the CD they are burned or...or even the pixels that make up the digital images.  

Also, keep in mind that you can dictate the rights & permissions that go along with the photos.  For example, it's usually implied (by the customer at least) that when you give them a disc of images, that they will be able to print them or make digital copies etc.  But legally, they can't do that unless you give them permission to do so.  aka Copyright.

You can give them a disc, just for their viewing pleasure...but the problem is that most people don't know or care about copyright laws, and will do it anyway.  Some of them, even after you explain it to them.  

You don't have to give up ownership / moral rights to your images, if you don't want to.  So while you may allow them to make copies, they wouldn't be able to use the images for their own gain etc.


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## joyofmarketing (Sep 30, 2010)

It's all about how you position yourself. If you position yourself as an artist and that you are creating custom art for their home, of their family, and you are selling them wall portraits rather than gift prints, they will expect to pay more. Never, never, ever give images on cd. Your lawyer, doctor, accountant wouldn't expect to do work for nothing so why would you?


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## lilysmom (Oct 24, 2010)

Kinda late jumping into this, but here's what I do.  Keep in mind, I'm just starting to do photography professionally.  I also don't have a studio, so we're in the same boat there. 

I charge a sitting fee which includes a CD of the images with the contract stating that the images are not to be edited except possibly to be resized to share online.  I let the client know that they are free to run to Walmart for prints if they choose to, but I do recommend buying prints through me if they want high quality prints because I use a professional lab.  It's one thing to have a 4x6 from CVS or Walmart sitting on their desk at work.  It's another story for the blown up print hanging on their living room wall.

I was up in the air for the longest time as to whether or not I wanted to offer the CD, but my deciding factor was my biggest competition in my area.  (I live in a small town!)  She offers a CD and people like that, so I didn't have too much of a choice.  I also made it that my charge for the sitting fee/CD makes it at least somewhat worth my while even if they don't order prints.  

I had a couple glasses of wine tonight so I hope this make sense. lol  Hope this helps!


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## darkchild (Oct 24, 2010)

I did a photo shoot on a car not too long ago, the guy didn't want prints cuz he was just going to post the pics on his facebook/myspace, so he just gave me 50 bucks for the cd that included 5 slightly edited pictures, took me about 45 minutes to do the shoot and editing so it was fine with me


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## KmH (Oct 24, 2010)

darkchild said:


> I did a photo shoot on a car not too long ago, the guy didn't want prints cuz he was just going to post the pics on his facebook/myspace, so he just gave me 50 bucks for the cd that included 5 slightly edited pictures, took me about 45 minutes to do the shoot and editing so it was fine with me


Sorry to hear you lost out on the money. 
The people that make prints, sell paper and ink, they don't sell images. Someone else has to provide them with the images to put on the paper.
It's the same with a disc of photos. Someone has to make the images that get put on the disc.


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## VMCPhotography (Dec 5, 2010)

I have been taking photos since the 6th grade but I am really just getting ready to offer services in a business environment and I have a question. (I don't have a business license yet which is why Im really not charging much right now.

Okay right now, I am offering to my friends or others the opportunity to do a photo shoot for me(engagement, grad,etc) for free to help build my personal portfolio and in return I will give them 2 free 8x10s for their time in helping me.

Then if they like all of the image no a cd with my name on them at the bottom or watermark logo I am charging them $25 per 100 pictures edited.  

My concern is since my  website is not complete yet and I don't have the resources or equipment to do the printing process for them, do I need to give them a copyright release form to take with them to the stores saying that it is okay for them to print out the images for their use and to load online even though my name is at the bottom of the images?  

If so, what does the copyright release form say or do you know of any examples of them because I have several grad shoots coming up within two weeks so I wanted to know before then. 





lilysmom said:


> Kinda late jumping into this, but here's what I do.  Keep in mind, I'm just starting to do photography professionally.  I also don't have a studio, so we're in the same boat there.
> 
> I charge a sitting fee which includes a CD of the images with the contract stating that the images are not to be edited except possibly to be resized to share online.  I let the client know that they are free to run to Walmart for prints if they choose to, but I do recommend buying prints through me if they want high quality prints because I use a professional lab.  It's one thing to have a 4x6 from CVS or Walmart sitting on their desk at work.  It's another story for the blown up print hanging on their living room wall.
> 
> ...


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## KmH (Dec 5, 2010)

What you give them is called a Use License, not a copyright release.

Copyright is a bundle of rights that you can license piecemeal.

It's a good idea to include a PDF file of your use license right on the disc.

IMO, it is a big mistake to do portfolio building for free, let alone give away 2 free 8x10's to boot and charge just $0.25 to edit a photo.

A better tactic is to show realistic, business like pricing, but offer a substantial, limited time portfolio building discount.

On of the most difficult things a business can try to do, is raise prices.

Here is a sample print use license:

_*Print Reproduction and Use License Agreement*_

© 2010 (Copyright Owners Name) , all rights reserved

All of these images are protected by United States Federal Copyright Law (Title 17 of the Unites States Code), and provisions of the international Berne Convention. This Use License shall be governed by the laws of the State of _________.

This license grants (your client name here) and their immediate family the right to print, or have printed, any of the images on this disc. No other usage rights are granted, nor implied.
Reproductions of the images on this disc are for personal, home, and work place use only and may not be entered in any kind of contest, used for any commercial purpose, nor be placed anywhere on the Internet without written permission from  (Your Studio Name).

Images appropriately formatted and sized for Internet use have been provided on a separate disc and are covered by a Use License specific to Internet use.

(Your Studio Name) is not responsible for the quality of any prints not purchased from, (Your Studio Name.)

No waiver by either party of any of the terms or conditions of this license shall be deemed or construed to be a waiver of such term or condition for the future, or of any subsequent breach thereof. Waivers are only applicable when they are written. There will be no verbal waivers to this agreement.

The Photographer hereby warrants that he (or she) is the sole creator of these images and owns all rights granted by law.


Authorized Signature: (Copyright Owners Name)    Date: _____________
Client Signature: ___________________________ Date: _____________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Additional notes:
In addition to a paper copy for the client (and one in your files), you should also put a PDF copy of the license on the disc as an image. 
You can add whatever other restrictions or permissions you desire. As an example you could limit the size they do prints, "the right to print, or have printed, any of the images on this disc at a size no larger than 10 inches by 15 inches.&#8221;
Or, you could allow Internet use of the images.
One last note: Don't call it a Copyright Release unless you are actually intending to be giving away ownership of the copyright. If you do, the image could legally be interpreted as no longer yours and you would then not be able to use it in any way, without the written permission of the new copyright owner.


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## PetsPhotography (Dec 6, 2010)

darkchild said:


> I did a photo shoot on a car not too long ago, the guy didn't want prints cuz he was just going to post the pics on his facebook/myspace, so he just gave me 50 bucks for the cd that included 5 slightly edited pictures, took me about 45 minutes to do the shoot and editing so it was fine with me


 
Not sure... but it seems like you are saying (in so many words) that you charge according to what the customer is going to do with your images!!


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## rks221 (Dec 17, 2010)

I think it depends on usage. I had someone who was getting on match.com and wanted a couple shots of him to put on there. He paid $100 for three shots, I only gave him web/facebook size images on CD and made him sign a release stating that they were for personal web use only and not for printing. This aside you see more and more people that want stuf for web use(dating sites, Facebook etc.) as opposed to showing on the wall. I know a portrait photographer that gives edited full-res images on CD. He just has a high sitting fee which includes it. This way customers know upfront how much they are going to pay.


P.S. I know everyone is going to ask how much is high so $100/image with a 6 image minimum.


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## Stanza (Sep 8, 2011)

Just sell the cd for another quantity of money, it will be fair for everyone.


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## j28 (Sep 13, 2011)

I hate selling CDs.  Many of my clients love CDs.  I have just started offering them, especially for weddings and events.  My compromise is to price my CD where I am happy if I never have another sale from the images.  I also have a drugstore print and one of my pro lab prints side by side in my studio so they can see and touch the difference.


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## KmH (Sep 13, 2011)

Sbuxo said:


> What if you have them sign a model release in which you specify no editing of the photograph(y) and such? Or does that not apply when they pay for their photos?


That isn't what a model release is for. That is what a use license is for. A use license is often called a print release by retail phototgraphers, or even worse they call it a copyright release.


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## The_Traveler (Sep 13, 2011)

DC-Photog said:


> Portraits: I never sell CDs for portrait sessions - only prints. You don't even need your own web site to do it. Get an account with Pictage or Smugmug. Upload to password-protected client galleries and give the client the link. Sit back and wait. You'll get the print sales.
> 
> Weddings: Yes, I sell the CD, but I charge for it in my package rates. I do include the engagement session portraits, which I also charge for on the CD. That is the only time a put portraits on a CD.



I looked at your site and wonder if you really edit each of the 5-800 digital negatives you hand them on a CD?
That seems like a lot of work for the photog.


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