# I'm a no-bull**** person...(rant)



## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

When it comes to things that I care about, like my profession, I am a no-bull**** person.

That said, I took the worst job I've ever come across. College professor(worked as a designer before this).

Back when I was in college (only about 13 years ago), our work load was 3 times more than my current students. I only missed one class because it was the last day of the semester, I handed in all of my assignments and my instructor said I didn't have to come. I was not late for a single class. Overall GPA was 3.74. I didn't do it for awards or merits. I did it because I expected myself to put in the absolute best that I can(since the tuition was ridiculous).

It's barely half a semester since I took this job and here are some of the crap I have to deal with already:

Students constantly having to be reminded to write their names on their assignments.
Students who won't do what I "strongly suggested (research methods and what to research)" and come to me the night before presentation day saying she/he can't figure out what to design.
Students having breakfast in class.
Students having lunch in class.
Students having afternoon snack in class.
Students sending one representative to negotiate a later dead line for their assignment ON THE SECOND WEEK OF SCHOOL.
Students who don't ask questions ( I gave them plenty chances to) and return with assignments that are utter crap. Imagine having to grade 73 copies of crap each week.
Told student to write an essay, came back with some scribbled notes.
Last week, I gave a test that is supposed to be easy. All questions were directly from the lecture notes. Of which, there were exercises that I gave to them for practice weeks prior, and 75% of the students had no idea what they were doing.
This means they had the chance to do the test before the test, and had the chance to ask me questions if they had problems. I practically gave them answers but they were to damn stupid to even realize it.

And I teach in the so-called best design school in the country. If the world is to come to an end, it's us, not mother nature.

Why do I commute 1h15min on the subway each way daily to do this? It pays only 1/4 of my old job. I don't know, I just find myself taking the least comfortable and most torturous path every time.


Edit: I spent a year teaching elementary school kids in the rural part of the country before this and it was so much more fulfilling. At least they learn to write their names on their assignments the first time.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

You are feeling the effects of the "Me me me" generation. 

Rampant in anyone under 30 these days. Lazy, think their **** don't stink and expect to be rewarded for little to no effort. Now imagine trying to hire any of these "professionals" for a position!

p.s. I am 32.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

Probably you're inner moo-moo cow is trying to tell to place back standards in lol..can't believe this coming from a college.

I don't think anything has changed, just more distractions.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> ...
> Students constantly having to be reminded to write their names on their assignments. No name, no way to give a mark.
> Students who won't do what I "strongly suggested (research methods and what to research)" and come to me the night before presentation day saying she/he can't figure out what to design. You can't figure out what mark to give other than 'F'.
> Students having breakfast in class. There's no eating in my classroom. Please leave. Come back tomorrow.
> ...


I don't mean to sound rude, but I would submit that the problem really lies with you. The students feel that you're the type of person who will accomodate these behaviours. I would suggest at the start of your next class, lay out the rules and adhere to them. Those who wish to play their own reindeer games can do it elsewhere, and if they don't receive a high enough mark. Oh well...


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> When it comes to things that I care about, like my profession, I am a no-bull**** person.
> 
> That said, I took the worst job I've ever come across. College professor(worked as a designer before this).
> 
> ...



Ok.. well I guess my thought process is, if you are a no BS person then I'm guessing Academia probably isn't going to be a good fit for you since, at least in my experience, Academics is all about BS.

You are dealing with a generation that believes that school exists to tell them how special and wonderful they are - this is what they got in high school and they fully expect it to continue throughout there academic career.  They want trophies just for showing up.  Actually they want trophies just because they said the would show up even when they didn't, after all for them it's just the thought that they might show up that should count.

So basically you have a couple of choices here, you can do what most of their teachers have done to this point and let it slide, collect you paycheck and go home.  You can go on an arse kicking spree and start flunking most of the little darlings until they finally do pull their heads out, or you can wash your hands of the whole thing and quit.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah, I am one year younger than you.

Yes that's what frustrates me. All these years of educational resources spent on these snobs and they are "unusable".
To be fair, the education system here has failed miserably, and they just implemented a "new system reform" that is even worse than the last one.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> runnah, I am one year younger than you.
> 
> Yes that's what frustrates me. All these years of educational resources spent on these snobs and they are "unusable".
> To be fair, the education system here has failed miserably, and they just implemented a "new system reform" that is even worse than the last one.




We had an intern how was in their senior year and they DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO USE MICROSOFT WORD. I mean how does that happen. Just lazy and entitled. 

Honestly the kids in the "blue-collar" vocations are 100x better than the "professional" fields. I have 18 year old kids who do the construction type jobs that bust their asses 110% of the time and for the most part are sharper than most college grads.


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## 480sparky (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> You are feeling the effects of the "Me me me" generation. ...........



I call 'em the _Entitled Generation_.  They feel they're entitled to everything without having to work or pay for it.  Mommy still cuts their meat for them, daddy buys 'em a car when they're 16, and all music and software should be free.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> You can go on an arse kicking spree and start flunking most of the little darlings until they finally do pull their heads out, or you can wash your hands of the whole thing and quit.


I vote for this option!


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

tirediron said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > You can go on an arse kicking spree and start flunking most of the little darlings until they finally do pull their heads out, or you can wash your hands of the whole thing and quit.
> ...



This is all good until you get angry well-off parents calling the dean and asking how dare a teacher flunk their little genius offspring.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

tirediron said:


> I don't mean to sound rude, but I would submit that the problem really lies with you. The students feel that you're the type of person who will accomodate these behaviours. I would suggest at the start of your next class, lay out the rules and adhere to them. Those who wish to play their own reindeer games can do it elsewhere, and if they don't receive a high enough mark. Oh well...[/COLOR]



First of all, this is college, not elementary school. When I was talking about this with a friend and he's all about compassion and patience, telling me to make things clear and stuff. The problem is, since when is eating in class ok? High school? Middle school? Elementary school? Why should I even have to lay these rules out? I did tell them the rules each time, but they surprise me with more ridiculous behaviors. It's like a never ending game, and one you can't win. If I have to treat them like high school or elementary school kids, then they should just go back to high school or elementary school.

Simply giving Fs like I don't give a crap is like treating the people who treated you badly the same way. It's childish and it doesn't help. For each assignment, I give them a score (we do score system here) and a comment on what the student needs to improve on. It's the next best thing I can do other than a in-person critique because there's no time in class for this. It gets really tiring and disheartening when most of them are bad simply because they don't practice the simple instructions that I gave.

Some do improve, but not enough to make me feel like I am not wasting my time.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > runnah, I am one year younger than you.
> ...



I teach design drafting class. The entire class didn't know they had to use a pair of compasses to draw circles.

Some asked me,"If my compasses only has an attachment for pencils and I want to draw with a pen, what should I do?"
True story. Yes it's fitting because it's scary, like Halloween scary.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Before we start looking elsewhere, look at the questions being asked here and how people scramble to provide answers that are easily found in the manual or elsewhere.
If we are party to this entitlement, it is a bit hypocritical to condemn it elsewhere and encourage it here.


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## kathyt (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> When it comes to things that I care about, like my profession, I am a no-bull**** person.
> 
> That said, I took the worst job I've ever come across. College professor(worked as a designer before this).
> 
> ...



I completely understand your frustration. So, my first thought is that there is some sort of disconnect somewhere. I think back to some of my most memorable professors, and try to recall why they were so profound to me. It had nothing to do with the subject matter, but it was the _way_ that they connected with me. They demanded respect, and I most certainly gave it right back ten fold. I think some of the rough exteriors we see in this generation is really only one, thin layer deep. We just have to dig down a layer to get to the good stuff.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> This is all good until you get angry well-off parents calling the dean and asking how dare a teacher flunk their little genius offspring.



We get those calls all the time. Like... 

Ring ring
Mom,"My daughter is having to carry more and more electronics with her and I think the school should have lockers for their personal belongings so they don't have to lug those heavy things around between classes"
Mom,"It's bad for the back when they sit on the floor to work on their projects. The school should prepare a big work bench in the common area for them" (They have their own work studios and desks already, and we are the only department that offers personal work space on campus).


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## 480sparky (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> I teach design drafting class. The entire class didn't know they had to use a pair of compasses to draw circles.
> 
> Some asked me,"If my compasses only has an attachment for pencils and I want to draw with a pen, what should I do?"
> True story. Yes it's fitting because it's scary, like Halloween scary.



I recall reading somewhere a guy was teaching a class on photography and a student asked if it was worthwhile to buy a camera that could take photos in the portrait orientation. :er:


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mean to sound rude, but I would submit that the problem really lies with you. The students feel that you're the type of person who will accomodate these behaviours. I would suggest at the start of your next class, lay out the rules and adhere to them. Those who wish to play their own reindeer games can do it elsewhere, and if they don't receive a high enough mark. Oh well...[/COLOR]
> ...


It certainly sounds like elementary school to me... just sayin'... seriously though; a few 'F's (or however your institution indicates a failing grade) is NOT an indication that you don't care, it's an indication that they haven't met the standard, and failing to follow the rules is failing to meet the standard. Part of a person's education is about life, so in addition to teaching them drafting, you're teaching them about life. Life is NOT easy, and when tehy f*** up, they need to know that they're going to pay the piper and this is as good a place as any for them to learn. As for eating in class, I'm sure that is okay in some places, since it's not in yours, make that clear to all of them, and enforce it. There is NO POINT in having rules where there is no consequence for failing to follow them.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Before we start looking elsewhere, look at the questions being asked here and how people scramble to provide answers that are easily found in the manual or elsewhere.
> If we are party to this entitlement, it is a bit hypocritical to condemn it elsewhere and encourage it here.



Lew, I love Google and use it all the time. In fact, the main reason why I carry a smart phone is so I can google the questions in my head on the go.

Can you imagine I had to enlighten my students with "what to google", something which I already told them about?


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

I remember when you had to be intelligent to get into college.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

> I don't mean to sound rude, but I would submit that the problem really lies with you. The students feel that you're the type of person who will accomodate these behaviours. I would suggest at the start of your next class, lay out the rules and adhere to them. Those who wish to play their own reindeer games can do it elsewhere, and if they don't receive a high enough mark. Oh well...



With all due respect, I think this is incorrect.

I teach college as well. This bs happens no matter what kind of teacher you are. If you are strict, the bs does settle down a little bit, but you can't fight every single battle every day. Well, not if you want to last more than one semester. And even after most of it settles down, you're still left with piles of it anyway.

I honestly don't care if students are eating in class as long as they are still paying attention and they're not making any gross noises or leaving a mess. I am clear about this from the start.

For the other stuff about assignments and sloppy work - yup, that's how it is these days. And yes, I hand back work ungraded if it's not to my standard. Crappy work is rewarded with a low or failing grade (depending on how crappy). I just handed back two failing grades last night without a qualm. Oh, make that three. One student plagiarized. In my classes, the first time someone plagiarizes, I talk to them and see how they react. If they get immediately embarrassed, I usually give them another chance. They still fail that paper, but if they are good for the rest of the semester, I'll give them a chance to rewrite it. If the student, however, tries to deny it, then they get a 0 for the paper, and they are warned that the next little hint of the same will result in failing the class and being reported to the college. I can give you a long list of students who have failed my classes and been reported to the college.

But here's the thing. _They always try._ They always start out trying to get away with sloppy work, disrespectful behavior, and attitude. It takes most of them several weeks to really get the hint that they shouldn't f*** around if they want to pass my class. Some of them finally get it and start improving. Others finally get it and withdraw. Still others don't ever get it and end up with an F.

There's only so much you can do. I might win the battle of the cell phones and the double-spaced typed essays with correct heading (THAT takes at least half the semester) and no-extensions, no-late-papers, but I have to accept the fact that some of them will always forget to capitalize their names, some will always leave at least one 'u' instead of 'you' in an essay, some will always come in late... These are not the ones that are getting the good grades in class, mind you, but they are at least doing the rest of their work and they have a good enough attitude in class participation to pass the class.

I give very few A grades, and in almost 10 years of teaching at this college, I've only been asked about grades a handful of times, almost all of them about why they 'only' got a B+ instead of an A. "Because you earned a B+" is always my response. "But I was there every day and worked really hard!" is their argument. "So did the C student who sat next to you. I'm not grading your attendance and effort. I'm grading your performance." That's usually the end of the discussion.

OP, may I offer some suggestions? Don't smile for the first month of class. It's much much easier to be a dick at the beginning and then loosen up a little later on after they already respect your rules. It's impossible to go the opposite way, however.


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## MK3Brent (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> Simply giving Fs like I don't give a crap is like treating the people who treated you badly the same way. It's childish and it doesn't help.




Who said to do that? 

It's really as simple as "You were supposed to do X, and you didn't.. therefore you will not earn the associated marks." 

Listen, I get it... The whole educational system in the states is one big bureaucratic game... Teachers here are forced to curve grades in order to inflate their class averages so heaven forbid the counties/parents complain that their $XX,XXX / year tuition is being wasted. Meanwhile, we graduate flocks of these self righteous know-nothings that hop around ruining one business after the next.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> I completely understand your frustration. So, my first thought is that there is some sort of disconnect somewhere. I think back to some of my most memorable professors, and try to recall why they were so profound to me. It had nothing to do with the subject matter, but it was the _way_ that they connected with me. They demanded respect, and I most certainly gave it right back ten fold. I think some of the rough exteriors we see in this generation is really only one, thin layer deep. We just have to dig down a layer to get to the good stuff.



When I was in college, the professors only showed up during class.

Here we sit through the whole day and spend a good amount of time with the students. Seriously, with the amount of time I spend on consultation with my students, I can probably demand alimony from their parents.

The ideal situation is, I give them 65%, they can push it to 80% with some initiative, and then with a bit of polishing they can get to 90% with a little more help.
Right now, I have no choice but to give them 85%, and they come back the next day at 60%. Literally 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards. Why? They think they can out smart themselves, choose not to do as I said and come back stuck at their own brilliant idea.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

First of all, sorry to bring all this negativity here, but I've been pretty damn frustrated lately, need to see if I am the one who's not thinking straight.

I do fail them. I am not easy on grades. Guess what? They don't seem to care. The system here makes it hard to kick a student out because of poor performance. I remember when I was in college, 3 no-shows means you get kicked out of the class. Here, one of my students hasn't showed up for two months without official leave notice. Nothing's happening to him. Our tuition fee is peanuts compared to what I had to pay when I went to school in the US. The parents pay for their tuition fee here. They don't feel it, college is easy to get into. To think that these are the "cream of the crop" because they are all the top scorers in the national exam, to think that they are supposed to be the smartest and brightest, the hope of the country's future.... I really should be considering immigration.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > runnah, I am one year younger than you.
> ...



I teach at a community college and students of all kinds. The ones from the richer school districts who were too lazy or not smart enough to get into a 'good' college come to my school so they can supposedly clean up their act and then transfer to a 4-year school. They are certainly the ones who are most likely to feel entitled, to feel like they could charm their way into a good grade, or to feel like sitting in the back of class stoned out of their minds should count as 'particitpation.'

The best students I've ever taught? Marines and ex-cons. They're not often the ones turning in the highest quality work - they're not dumb but not the smartest in the class, in other words - but they are unfailingly the hardest workers who have the most respectful attitudes for me and for their own work.

I once said that I'd rather have a classroom full of Marines any day of the week. Then, right after I said that, I realized how it sounded


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

What country are you in?


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

Taiwan


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> Taiwan



Wow from they way you described it I would have thought for sure that you were in the states. I didn't think Taiwan would have the same "american" issues.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> I once said that I'd rather have a classroom full of Marines any day of the week. Then, right after I said that, I realized how it sounded



Would you enforce a no shirts rule?


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > I once said that I'd rather have a classroom full of Marines any day of the week. Then, right after I said that, I realized how it sounded
> ...



You know it.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > Taiwan
> ...



The main problem with Taiwan's education is that the central government controls EVERYTHING right to the tiniest details, even for private schools. And the REAL problem is that these policies are set by dumbass politicans and officials who are not professional educators. They may have a degree in education, but they are so disconnected from what the society demands from education, and they mostly make policies based on "which ever way to avoid liability". We have a saying to describe these civil servants - " The less you do, the fewer mistakes you make". And not only do they not take initiatives, they make it impossible for us to take the right initiatives.

They make it sound justified to use "It's never been done before" as a reason to turn down suggestions. Really, it's an acceptable reason here.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> I think back to some of my most memorable professors, and try to recall why they were so profound to me. It had nothing to do with the subject matter, but it was the _way_ that they connected with me. They demanded respect, and I most certainly gave it right back ten fold. I think some of the rough exteriors we see in this generation is really only one, thin layer deep. We just have to dig down a layer to get to the good stuff.



I taught part-time for ~15 years and came to the conclusion that softness on the part of the teacher is perceived as weakness to be exploited. 
I was friendly and pleasant but my deadlines were just that. I gave out a schedule at the beginning of each semester and went over how grades were determined and had every student sign a small acknowledgement that they understood - and that I kept.
It was not up to me to dig down beneath that scurvy, whining surface to the vital wonderful human core that may have existed withing each student, my job was to actually teach them things.



molested_cow said:


> Can you imagine I had to enlighten my students with "what to google", something which I already told them about?



I would tend not to answer questions they should have/could have known from elsewhere. I don't see myself as the reference for facts.
Albert Einstein said, 'Never try to remember things you can look up.' 
I agree with Einstein but it's up to the student to look things up.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> The best students I've ever taught? Marines and ex-cons.



I used to prefer for students or staff those who had gone to any of the service academies. 
No BS, no excuses, just got the job done.


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## KmH (Oct 31, 2013)

You have to know something is seriously ****ed up when the highest paid non-administrative staff member at a college or university is the football team's coach. :er:

Businesses know that today's college graduates are not adequately prepared or trained in their field of study.
Many graduates don't even have basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills, let alone the computer and other modern day technical skills that are required to function in today's business world.
No wonder companies have to go outsource to stay in business, and/or hire people trained outside the US.

And we see all of this right here at TPF too.

The notion that schools have to support every kid's self esteem by giving every kid a blue ribbon was/is psychology bull**** that has backfired badly.
The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

It sounded like American students to me, too. But our spoiled attitudes and behaviors are not unique to us, of course!

OP, where are you from? Are cultural differences an issue on top of everything else?


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > The best students I've ever taught? Marines and ex-cons.
> ...



I've had a few ex-Army and some Army Reserve as well. Never any Navy or Air Force. The Marines still kicked all their asses. Having them in class also had the additional benefit of making all the other slacker boys sit up just a bit taller. Some of them reacted the opposite way - they'd ironically put even more effort into their slacking as though they were rebelling even harder. The rest of the boys, though, often wanted to impress the Marine. Or not piss him off. They weren't wearing a uniform or anything, but there's something different and recognizable about a Marine who has served.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> It sounded like American students to me, too. But our spoiled attitudes and behaviors are not unique to us, of course!
> 
> OP, where are you from? Are cultural differences an issue on top of everything else?



I am from Taiwan, but grew up abroad. Is it a cultural shock? Well, I've heard about terrible things about Taiwanese young generations, but seeing it for myself has been quite a ride. I don't think my heart can take this for much longer.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > molested_cow said:
> ...



There's a lot of that going on in America as well. I know a woman who was denied tenure twice as a 2nd-grade teacher. TWICE. You know what she's doing now? Assistant superintendent. Teachers are constantly being told what to do by people who have never stepped foot in a classroom, or have been kicked out of a classroom.

As troublesome as the college level may be, it's still better than the public schools for me.

I'm lucky enough to be in a situation with my school and my awesome boss that allows me to give the grades the students earn and know that I will be backed up. I know your pain, though, in having your hands tied. When I taught in Turkey (middle and high school), I gave failing grades and the administration would change them after I submitted them so the parents wouldn't get mad and send their kid (and money) to a different school.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

That nonsense wouldn't happen im military school!!


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

KmH said:


> Businesses know that today's college graduates are not adequately prepared or trained in their field of study.
> Many graduates don't even have basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills, let alone the computer and other modern day technical skills that are required to function in today's business world.
> No wonder companies have to go outsource to stay in business, and/or hire people trained outside the US.
> 
> ...



So true.

I like model that is being adopted in Scandinavian countries and I think Germany. They start profiling students very early. Those who are good at math and science are put into that academic track, those that aren't are put into vocational schooling. Seems harsh by American standard but then again Finland is ranked #1 when it comes to education. 

Politics aside the "No child left behind" was one of the worst things to happen to education in the last 30 years.


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## TheLost (Oct 31, 2013)

At first i was all...  "You preach it man!!" about the _entitlement _of the current generation.  I have a 16 year old boy who is currently getting everything handed to him (football scholarships) and doesn't respect the opportunity he's being given.  I have a friend who owns a flooring business who used to hire college kids all the time.. Now none of them want to work for him... they'd rather work in a 'call center' then learn a trade.

but then when you said Taiwan i was like... oooooh.    My sister did a stint teaching collage in Korea.  She said it was the worst experience ever.

At the end of the day you need to do what is right for you!  If you dread going into work each day and are not finding it fulfilling whats the point? Life is too short..  find a job you are happy with.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

IByte said:


> That nonsense wouldn't happen im military school!!



I _almost_ wish the recession had gotten worse so people would actually have to _*work*_ for a living.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> Wow from they way you described it I would have thought for sure that you were in the states. I didn't think Taiwan would have the same "american" issues.



We have it worse over in the States.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> I almost wish the recession had gotten worse so people would actually have to work for a living.



????...


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Businesses know that today's college graduates are not adequately prepared or trained in their field of study.
> ...



Finland also pays their teachers as professionals, which America doesn't do.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the vocational tracking. Turkey had the same system - a lot of Europe does, actually. Good ole Napoleon. I saw a lot of students who were good at something but hated it because they were stuck with it. I think it can be a good strategy, but some flexibility needs to be built into the system as well so someone can still have choices available to them instead of being forced to follow a track that they were set upon by a test they took as a child.

As for the bolded statement? Amen, brother.

Edited: Rereading, I realized I was thinking about students who were already on an academic track, but they had to choose an area: science, business, humanities...etc. This was often determined by a test (like the baccalaureate) and some kids would score well in one area and be put in that track even if they weren't too keen on it. It was very hard to switch once you were in. That's the part I question. I'm all for making vocational schools a more respectable choice for those who aren't academically-inclined.


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## Demers18 (Oct 31, 2013)

This is a very interesting thread especially since I'm currently packing a U-haul and heading to Winnipeg for a teaching position at a technical college.

I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to approach my first day as a teacher and I always come to the same conclusion. RESPECT. It's been my moto for a long time and that is how I plan to run my classroom. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to present it. I think it will be one of if not the most important presentation of the course as that where you establish the rules and guidelines for the class. Have to say I'm nervous as hell and extremely excited!

Any tips for a first day?


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## amolitor (Oct 31, 2013)

Your job is to hammer knowledge into the heads of the people who sign up for the course. Put your big person pants on and figure it out.

Yes, they're horrible. So were you when you were 20, albeit in different ways.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

Demers18 said:


> This is a very interesting thread especially since I'm currently packing a U-haul and heading to Winnipeg for a teaching position at a technical college.
> 
> I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to approach my first day as a teacher and I always come to the same conclusion. RESPECT. It's been my moto for a long time and that is how I plan to run my classroom. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to present it. I think it will be one of if not the most important presentation of the course as that where you establish the rules and guidelines for the class. Have to say I'm nervous as hell and extremely excited!
> 
> Any tips for a first day?



Don't smile! 
Okay, you can probably smile  It's important to be firm without looking like you're trying to hard. If the students can sense that you're barking too loud, they might think your bite isn't that bad. So now is not the time to be earnest and overstate things - just be very matter of fact about your rules without laboring the point. 

They will test you, of course, and those first few tests to your authority will be the most important. It's hard to be inflexible if that's not your natural inclination, but it's better to be very strict at the start. You can always bend a little towards the end of the semester, but if you do so too quickly, they'll take advantage of that.

Put the most important rules in writing. They're going to forget a lot of that first day, but if you have very clear written guidelines, you can always tell them, "Check your syllabus. This has been clear from the start of the semester."

Be overprepared. If it's a three-hour class, plan for six. Until you get used to the classroom, your judgments about timing might be a little off. If you're over-prepared then you can handle it when you unexpectedly get through your lesson plan halfway through the class - you can just go to the next day's lesson plan.

Good luck!


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## o hey tyler (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> You are feeling the effects of the "Me me me" generation.  Rampant in anyone under 30 these days. Lazy, think their **** don't stink and expect to be rewarded for little to no effort. Now imagine trying to hire any of these "professionals" for a position!  p.s. I am 32.



I'm under 30. Whatchu trying to say? 

Come at me bro. COME AT ME.


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## TheFantasticG (Oct 31, 2013)

29 myself. Worked 2-3 jobs at any given time to put myself through tech school. I can't imagine putting 10x more money into my education then acting as described in the OP.



Demers18 said:


> This is a very interesting thread especially since I'm currently packing a U-haul and heading to Winnipeg for a teaching position at a technical college.



    Good luck. I went to a tech school in 2004-2005 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana for electrical/HVAC residential, commercial, marine, industrial. Been doing that from July 2005 to March 2013 in the oil field. I'm training people now. Never thought I would be doing this. Funny where life brings you.


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## ffarl (Oct 31, 2013)

One word: Parenting.  As I sit and ponder the decline of modern civilization (and I often do) I always come to the conclusion that it's down to parenting.

  OP, you're right, it's not your job to teach people basic manners and work ethic.  That should have been done years before.  Same with any basic skill.  A parent should be keeping an eye on what a kid learns at school and supplement where necessary.  They should be shown the value of doing something for themselves instead of calling roadside assistance, or a plumber to do something basic.  

   I watch my sister threaten my nephew with "Santa isn't going to come", or whatever BS instead of getting off her butt and taking care of business and it kills me.  That's where it starts.

   That said, you CAN take the opportunity to make a difference, maybe in one or two of them.  As a former restaurant owner, I had kids working there that I saw a good heart in but a bad set of circumstances.  I even tutored a few before their shifts on some basic stuff.  But the rest, you just have to chalk it up to a problem that started way before you got involved or it'll break your heart.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> Okay, you can probably smile  It's important to be firm without looking like you're trying to hard. If the students can sense that you're barking too loud, they might think your bite isn't that bad. So now is not the time to be earnest and overstate things -* just be very matter of fact about your rules without laboring the point.
> *
> They will test you, of course, and those first few tests to your authority will be the most important.* It's hard to be inflexible if that's not your natural inclination, but it's better to be very strict at the start.* You can always bend a little towards the end of the semester, but if you do so too quickly, they'll take advantage of that.
> 
> *Put the most important rules in writing. Th*ey're going to forget a lot of that first day, but if you have very clear written guidelines, you can always tell them, "Check your syllabus. This has been clear from the start of the semester."



And make them sign a copy that they have read and understand..


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

Siiiigh....I miss private school.  In those days, if the nuns had the board of education in their hand.  Every one would listen.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

This is a comment on FB from someone I know

"I am spoiled, over-privileged, I have been given everything anyone could ever want- but at least I made the most of it."

from her father

'You were only given things that were useful to you. You got music lessons, but not a car; you've been to Indonesia, but not Cabo; a fancy computer but no fancy clothes."


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## texkam (Oct 31, 2013)

Have a Snickers bar.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > You are feeling the effects of the "Me me me" generation.  Rampant in anyone under 30 these days. Lazy, think their **** don't stink and expect to be rewarded for little to no effort. Now imagine trying to hire any of these "professionals" for a position!  p.s. I am 32.
> ...



I think you know what I am saying, you 48%'er!!!


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## frommrstomommy (Oct 31, 2013)

I personally love when people gripe about their pay check when they obviously knew damn well what their pay would be when they accepted the position. And to take onto that, who takes a 75% drop in pay and agrees to an hour fifteen commute all in one go?


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## Tiller (Oct 31, 2013)

frommrstomommy said:


> I personally love when people gripe about their pay check when they obviously knew damn well what their pay would be when they accepted the position. And to take onto that, who takes a 75% drop in pay and agrees to an hour fifteen commute all in one go?



+1

There have always been bad students. Nothing has changed.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> First of all, sorry to bring all this negativity here, but I've been pretty damn frustrated lately, need to see if I am the one who's not thinking straight.
> 
> I do fail them. I am not easy on grades. Guess what? They don't seem to care. The system here makes it hard to kick a student out because of poor performance. I remember when I was in college, 3 no-shows means you get kicked out of the class. Here, one of my students hasn't showed up for two months without official leave notice. Nothing's happening to him. Our tuition fee is peanuts compared to what I had to pay when I went to school in the US. The parents pay for their tuition fee here. They don't feel it, college is easy to get into. To think that these are the "cream of the crop" because they are all the top scorers in the national exam, to think that they are supposed to be the smartest and brightest, the hope of the country's future.... I really should be considering immigration.



Nope it's better to vent on the internets under a cow than facebook.  let it out and it's been a very good dicussion.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

So now teachers aren't allowed to discuss how underpaid they really are? We're supposed to just suck it up, take what we get and not ever say a word?

Got it.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> So now teachers aren't allowed to discuss how underpaid they really are? We're supposed to just suck it up, take what we get and not ever say a word?
> 
> Got it.



Whatever I know you guys just goof off on your short work days and long summer vacations.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > So now teachers aren't allowed to discuss how underpaid they really are? We're supposed to just suck it up, take what we get and not ever say a word?
> ...



It's good to live the glamorous life.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

frommrstomommy said:


> I personally love when people gripe about their pay check when they obviously knew damn well what their pay would be when they accepted the position. And to take onto that, who takes a 75% drop in pay and agrees to an hour fifteen commute all in one go?



Sometimes people must do what they don't want to do just to survive - and they don't relinquish their rights to complain about it.


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## mishele (Oct 31, 2013)

Just a question to throw out there. What made you want to be a teacher/Professor in the first place? limr, I would love to hear your answer.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> So now teachers aren't allowed to discuss how underpaid they really are? We're supposed to just suck it up, take what we get and not ever say a word?
> 
> Got it.



Nooo..it's like this; most companies in the U.S if you sign an agreement saying you will not bad mouth the company.  But throw a few F bombs on FB about that company, school, hospital etc, where some coworkers can see it; may result in termination. 

My comment was based off it's better here(or on a punching bag..my choice) to vent.  Or MC might blow a gasket in class.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

IByte said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > So now teachers aren't allowed to discuss how underpaid they really are? We're supposed to just suck it up, take what we get and not ever say a word?
> ...



Sorry. I was responding to a different comment. I should have quoted it to avoid confusion. It was the one about how the OP shouldn't complain about the job or its salary because he knew it would be paying lower before he took it.

I totally agree with your point about when/where/how to vent!


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> Sorry. I was responding to a different comment. I should have quoted it to avoid confusion. It was the one about how the OP shouldn't complain about the job or its salary because he knew it would be paying lower before he took it.
> 
> I totally agree with your point about when/where/how to vent!



No worries...pint?


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

mishele said:


> Just a question to throw out there. What made you want to be a teacher/Professor in the first place? limr, I would love to hear your answer.



It wasn't really a conscious decision. I mean, I've always loved chalk and wished I could be the one who always got to use it on the chalkboard  but other than that, it was not a burning desire to be in the classroom. I did, however, have a desire to always be in an academic setting because that's where I felt comfortable. When I majored in linguistics in college, I admired my professors and the subject matter so much that it made me want to be like them. My favorite professor was a big-time hardass and the A grade I got in her class is still one of my proudest moments. After I took her class, she asked me to come back as a teaching assistant (even as an undergrad) and I did that for two semesters. I really enjoyed it and wanted more. 

In grad school, I got a TA-ship that paid for my tuition and gave me a stipend each month for living expenses in exchange for teaching 8 hours a week in their English Language Institute. That was also really tough. The director of the ELI was another no-nonsense old-school professor and I loved her just as much as I did my undergrad mentor. I grew to love being in the classroom more and more. After grad school, I taught overseas and after 5 years, returned to the States. I was burnt out and thinking of changing profession, but after 3 months I still couldn't find a job, so I got some ESL classes at the community college to get a salary, any salary. 

I've been there ever since, though I've moved departments and gotten more involved in other aspects of the college as well. Even though it's incredibly frustrating in a lot of ways - including how horrible the pay is! - and even though planning an exit strategy, I can't really wrap my head around not being in the classroom. A bad class will leave me in a bad mood for hours, but a good class will leave me floating on air for days. I might ***** about it when I'm not in the classroom, but once I AM there, everything else falls away. Just me and my students and we're doing our work...it just feels natural at this point. It's the real work I'm doing, and it's why I put up with all the other crap. Yes, I knew it wasn't going to pay me millions, but I never cared about millions. I do care, however, about being paid a living wage and being appropriately compensated for my work, but teaching work is consistently undervalued and underestimated and I don't accept for one second that I'm supposed to shut up about that. Why can someone else demand their worth but teachers somehow are supposed to do it just for the love of it? Are we supposed to be altruists or something?


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

IByte said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry. I was responding to a different comment. I should have quoted it to avoid confusion. It was the one about how the OP shouldn't complain about the job or its salary because he knew it would be paying lower before he took it.
> ...



Make mine a Guinness and we're set


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> Make mine a Guinness and we're set



Oo...if I didn't know any better I'd say that was a challenge!


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## Tee (Oct 31, 2013)

Is no eating in the classroom school policy or just yours?  If it's your policy, what do you gain or lose by allowing them to eat in the classroom?


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## Tailgunner (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > runnah, I am one year younger than you.
> ...




Say what, Our 11 year old knows Microsoft Word...hell, he presents us with a Powerpoint presentation sometimes explaining why we should buy him something! How can you say no to that? lol


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

Tee said:


> Is no eating in the classroom school policy or just yours?  If it's your policy, what do you gain or lose by allowing them to eat in the classroom?



Because back in the we days listening to music, eating is not only rude and disrespectful, but  distracting. 

Physics is hard enough without the smells and crunching just common courtesy.


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## Redeyejedi (Oct 31, 2013)

show up for class, throw your feet up on the desk, eat your meal...with earbuds in of course, pick up a recent copy of Design Drafting American and just sit there. at least one student will ask, what you are doing, simply respond, "hey, if y'all don't don't give a flying f-stop, nor do i"

another approach is to praise those that are doing things acceptably. perhaps have an industry professional come in to discuss the industry's expected performance standards.

all is not lost, i mean at least they'll know how to take a selfie in the bathroom mirror.


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## Tee (Oct 31, 2013)

IByte said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > Is no eating in the classroom school policy or just yours?  If it's your policy, what do you gain or lose by allowing them to eat in the classroom?
> ...



Back in the day is not today. The way students learn today are totally different than when we walked 4 miles in snow uphill both ways.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

Tee said:


> Back in the day is not today. The way students learn today are totally different than when we walked 4 miles in snow uphill both ways.



True but most students have piss poor time management(beer pong parties  today have waaay too many distractions an excuses. 

I still go to school and IMO, it's rude to be snacking especially if they're sitting in the front where I sit.  Can't really comprehend how they can learn while munching,.  If you went where I go, the ones who lack basic hygiene skills are especially disgusting!


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

MC, I do agree you should become more strict and take charge.  Take time to list and say the Do's and Don'ts ...for college kids.  "If you're going to be my class, you're going to learn..period!  Cellphones on vibrate, tablets down, laptops off!!".  "If you're going to be late, you got 5 minutes before I lock the door".  No materials, no completed work, don't bother coming into my classroom!".  "If you dislike my rules of my class?", "So ****ing what and go flip burgers for the rest of your life!".....problem solved.


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## molested_cow (Oct 31, 2013)

I taught in a rural elementary school for a year before this for next to nothing and it was very fulfilling. Those kids don't have much at all. Most of them don't even have their parents with them, but they are generally eager learners and really fun to teach. I even learned a lot from them.

Then I moved back into the city. I was getting ready to start my own business, but since I am "new" to this country, I took this teaching job that was offered to me out of expectation. I thought, I like to teach, and I need a start to at least take some time to gain knowledge about local industry and build connections. Plus, the school I am teaching at is supposed to be the top design school here, any where else can be worse. So that's why I am here. I am not concerned about the pay now. If I did I would have gone back to the corporate world. What I care is if I am happy doing what I do because I put in so much effort into everything I do. When things don't turn out anywhere close to expectation, all these little negative things come back.... you know, like a couple in heated argument, every little mistakes you made becomes the fuel.

I do make rules for my classes. However, I also told them that if I had to use hard rules to regulate their behaviors, they are better off be back in high school. I don't want to insult them like that. I said this hoping that they will have some self-respect.

When I taught in the elementary school, I customized my approach to each individual. The main principle that I employed was to help them build confidence by showing them that they too can succeed. The result was great and I thought the same will apply to college students. I thought wrong. These kids who came in with top grades aren't thinkers, let alone independent thinkers. They've been told what's right and wrong their whole life, never had to figure anything out themselves, and think they can take everything for granted. I had a student told me that she thought school and teachers are supposed to tell them the answer. I said school provides a safe learning environment where you can afford to fail. Teachers provide you the opportunity to learn and grow by providing knowledge and techniques. If you don't take the initiative to utilize these resources, that's your own fault.

I guess they think that by getting admitted into the school, and safely graduate from it, they are automatically labeled as a designer and entitled to a design job. Why not? Their parents have paid for it right?

My parents also paid for my education, but I never took it for granted. I knew how hard it was to have what I had. I saw how my classmates struggled, not because of school, but basic living resources that hindered them from being more successful. I also saw how students from other countries worked so hard. It's hard not to realize that you need to work damn hard to be in the league you hope to be in. I hope to share this perspective with my students. I tried, but I don't really know if they see what I see.

The problem that the industry is facing right now isn't about not enough jobs to go around. The industry can't find qualified people to do the jobs. Yet graduated students think that the industry isn't giving them a chance that they deserve.


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## mmaria (Nov 1, 2013)

Have to jump in  This is kind of flammable theme for me, I could talk/write about  it on and on and on...

OP, have you decided what kind of teacher are you? 

I'm strict, serious and sometimes, when I see opportunity I'm funny, but not to long. That is who I am when teach something, that is who I am in life in general. If I'm in class as a student I don't eat, I participate, learn or travel in my head if I'm not interested in subject matter. But never never eat, my parents thought me that it is rude and unacceptable. And frankly, I wouldn't tolerate it.
I blame parenting and educational system more then a teacher itself, but with that said I blame teachers as well. 

I'm so frustrated with educational system in my country! Everything was ok-ish until few years ago when private schools/colleges started to emerge. Now everyone has a diploma and for a short period of time, if they have money to "rush" trough the college. The best part is that this is a public secret, sort of. Everyone knows what is going on but politics keep those schools working still. 
I was invited to teach on a private college (yeah, that sort of private college). Teaching part was interesting for me, to see if I am capable to do that, so I accepted to teach few classes, with no payment. My first class was in front of about 60 students, more than half of them were older than me (I'm 30)  they were surprised how young I am, some of them tried to be kind of loose, but I automatically dived into my strict mood and they backed off. Those one and a half hour went great. They participated, we smiled, but I showed them who is a teacher and who is a student. They were approaching me afterwards to ask me if I would stay on the college.
So, I nailed it. I was so proud of myself. That was my first time in front of that big group Rest of teaching classes went great too....so, teaching is great! I'll accept to teach here   but...

Next tasks were shocking for me. I had to give grades for their assignments and I was lost...I was.... no words to express... Their assignments deserved F, all of them! Among everything else they don't know basic grammar! Editing text in ms word, what is that!?  They behave like in kindergarten. "Look professor, I printed a picture on front page". And experiences wit few final thesis, before they got their diploma.....can't write...grrrr!

Salary would be great, but I would hated myself. Couldn't do it! Turned them down! Even though I wasn't in a great money situation. But, that's who I am.

Now, present time. I have new job, they signed me office temporarily because soon we'll be moving to new building. So with me, in my office there is an intern. The intern has a degree in IT ( a private college but maybe he knows something),  great I thought  
After few days he brought a printer, to see what is wrong with it. Half an hour he was doing something, and finally asked me: "Sorry... could you tell me what is cyan?"  What, I said, come again? he asked again and told me that on monitor there is a message about cyan and he doesn't know what that is!!!!!???? after few seconds he asked: "is there something called magenta?"


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## molested_cow (Nov 1, 2013)

At least he asked. My students don't even do that.


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## mmaria (Nov 1, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> At least he asked. My students don't even do that.


Well let's hope your students will know at least some basics after they have a diploma  

My intern graduated in IT and doesn't know very basic things. I could write more examples but in five minutes my working day will be finished, which means that I'll go offline.


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## cbarnard7 (Nov 1, 2013)

runnah said:


> I remember when you had to be intelligent to get into college.



You never had to be intelligent to get in- just enough to get out.


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## cbarnard7 (Nov 1, 2013)

OP-

I understand your frustration- you're sitting there, wondering if these kids even care enough to make teaching worth your time. Don't let that detract from what you're doing. Some kids will get it, some won't. Some never will, some will eventually.

I was a part of that when I was in college.

I was never really a good student. In high school I messed around with girls, hanging out at the beach and playing soccer. I was always bright, but lazy as could be when it came to school. My parents didn't go to college and really had no advice for me. It didn't matter- I got into a large, D1 school and had the same work ethic as in HS. I wasn't entitled, nor thought I was- I just didn't care, really. All I cared about was playing soccer.

I finally got my chance to walk-on to the soccer team. I was a stand-out at try-outs and immediately knew I would it. Two days later, I got an e-mail from the assistant coach saying, "Come see me in my office to go over paperwork." I was ecstatic! I walked in the door, transcripts from the last semester in hand, and sat with him. He saw that I had gotten a "D" in my organic chem class and looked at me in the eyes and said, "Why'd you even waste our f**king time?, these grades aren't good enough" and asked me to leave.

It wasn't until that moment that everything academically changed for me (it finally made sense). I did much better, graduated with a good degree and found a great career in the medical field. However, I had to pay for all of my own schooling (since my parents didn't have the means to help). I'm still regretting that mistake (not doing well enough for scholarships) every month.

The point of my whole story is that no matter how hard you try, some kids will either not care or do enough to make you feel like you're a good teacher. Move past that and continue to do your job. They'll eventually figure it out on their own- sooner or later, because graduating doesn't equate to real-world success. We all know it's rough outside of the academic bubble. 

Remember this: It's not your job to make them successful, but rather to give them the tools and skills to do so on their own! They'll be one or two that make it really worth it.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 1, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> I do make rules for my classes. However, I also told them that if I had to use hard rules to regulate their behaviors, they are better off be back in high school. I don't want to insult them like that. I said this hoping that they will have some self-respect.



I understand, you shouldn't have to hammer College kids with rules. All my professors allowed food and drinks but we never used class as a means of eating lunch or dinner. We took stuff like a coke, water or coffee and sometimes a snack food but something small and nothing distracting. Heck, I can't recall a professor ever mentioning anything about food and drinks after the first day of class. So I would be frustrated as well if I was in your shoes.


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## Stevepwns (Nov 1, 2013)

KmH said:


> The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.



I can't disagree with you more.   I myself struggled through most of school.  Not because I am stupid. I have a severe reading comprehension issue.  I can not learn from reading.  Show me anything and I remember it forever.  I have taught myself several computer coding languages, everything I know about computers I taught myself.  Which is a lot.  Now that I am older and going back to school to get a degree, I actually find online college to be easy because I have a book, and the assignments, and I teach myself the class. Structured learning didnt work for me.  I know how to teach myself whatever I need, but a classroom setting where everything is structured and made to be taught to everyone, I fail every time or just barely pass. Now that I can teach myself what I need to know, I hold a 3.8. I am the perfect example why one size fits all is a bad idea.  I have an above average IQ and more technical knowledge from 3 different careers than most people, I excel at damn near everything I do.  But I cant learn from the typical methods.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 1, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.
> ...



I'm not sure if I qualify for a different learning style but I had issues with general school, especially High School. I was undiagnosed A.D.D which didn't help either. Anyhow, I ended up dropping out of high school after struggling two years in the 10th grade and working on my second year of 11th. For me, dropping out of school was the best thing I ever did. I took a couple years off from school and got really involved in working. I was making decent money but decided I need to do something with my life. So I got my GED and signed up for College. College fit me like a glove and I had a blast...I don't mean partying either. I ended up with some really good professors who really cared about teaching. I maintained a 3.5 GPA...and that was even after being unmedicated for my A.D.D.


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## limr (Nov 1, 2013)

College freshman especially can have a hard time transitioning from a high school setting to college. They are not used to taking responsibility for their own work. I agree that it seems wrong to be so authoritarian with people that should be 'adults' but some of them still really need that structure. You shouldn't HAVE to hammer them with rules, but the reality is that it's still necessary, even when they are older students. 

Of course, there's a limit.

I'm strict with my rules that I care about but not in the sense that I will hound the students until they comply. They have a clear choice: follow the rules or don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Many of them are quite surprised by this. I keep reminding them that a college education - despite what they have been told - is optional. When they ask me, 'Do I have to do X?" I usually tell them, "You don't HAVE to do a damn thing. If you choose not to do it, I'm not going to call your parents or send you to the principal's office. But I'm also not going to give you credit or another chance. Do it and get a grade. Don't do it, don't get a grade. Your choice. Just live with the consequences either way."

As I said, I really don't care about eating, though I actually haven't encountered it all that much. Mostly people just have a snack or a drink, not a full meal. I also teach a lot of evening classes, and many of my students are coming straight from work and haven't had a chance to eat. It's not fair for me to tell them to suck it up and wait another 2.5-3 hours to eat something. If they are sitting there starving, they're not going to be able to concentrate. Most of them still manage to grab a quick bite on the way over or in the cafeteria a few minutes before class starts, but every once in a while, one of them just needs to eat their sandwich in class, or be late. I've never seen a student so distracted by their potato chips that they couldn't eat and listen at the same time.

One thing I am strict about, though, is cell phones. If they simply can't live without their cell phone, I tell them to leave. As a teacher, I expect their attention should be on me or their work, so put the damned things away. Some of them say it's off, so why can't they just leave it on the desk? If it's off, why do you need it out? And I'm a major PITA about it too. If I see a phone, I'll stop whatever we're doing until the student puts it away. If I'm lecturing and I see someone texting under the desk, I stop and ask them why their hands are under the desk and they're staring at their crotch. I don't care if it's a problem student or a good student, I'll hound them to keep the phones away.

I'm in the position of both teaching classes and taking classes at the same school. When I'm sitting in the class as a student, it astounds me how lax the other teachers are about the cell phones. Some students sit there completely oblivious to the lesson and just play with their phones for the whole time. I can't understand how the teacher allows it. If someone doesn't care about the lesson, _why are they there??_

Once again, it's about picking your battles that are the most important to you. Make the rules and stick to them.


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## limr (Nov 1, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.
> ...



People DO have different learning styles. They have different strengths and weaknesses. The problem with this is how it is supposed to be dealt with in a classroom. A teacher can't diagnose every student's learning style and tailor lessons to fit every single style. It's not practical. They can certainly vary presentation of information or types of assignments, but it's true that some students just don't have a good fit with a traditional classroom. A lot of educational theory will say that the classroom has to change, but I'm not convinced that's the answer. I think we need to have more viable and respected options _other than the college classroom_ to learn or train for a profession. As it is, there are more and more 'square pegs' trying to fit themselves through a round hole because they've been inundated their entire lives with the message that they can't 'be someone' without a college education.


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## IByte (Nov 1, 2013)

bmmision said:


> Well I hope your students will know at least some basics after they have a diploma
> 
> My intern graduated in IT and doesn't know very basics things. I could write more examples but in five minutes my working day will be finished, which means that I'll go offline.



You buy me a case if Sam's and I'll get a SOHO up and working by the end of the work day!! lol.


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## mmaria (Nov 1, 2013)

IByte said:


> bmmision said:
> 
> 
> > Well let's hope your students will know at least some basics after they have a diploma
> ...



It's a deal!


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## IByte (Nov 1, 2013)

bmmision said:


> It's a deal!



Sounds like plan to me...if you want a linux sever that's 2 dozen wings extra lol


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 1, 2013)

Just do what Leonore says!! - and no smiling! :lmao::lmao: I'm good myself at the looking-over-the-glasses teacher look... LOL Some of this thread is giving me flashbacks to teaching junior high - doesn't seem all that different from teaching college freshmen! (I'm kidding. I think...) 

I haven't done traditional classroom teaching in a long time since I've worked with the birth-3 age group in more recent years (although much of the job is working with the parents & families) but seriously much of what Leonore is suggesting is the same type things I'd probably suggest. I think we must have had some similarities in the teaching methods we learned as part of our teacher training. 

I'd set clear guidelines, follow through as needed, etc. (and mean what you say and say it like you mean it). Part way through the thread some of the OP's experiences seemed different than what colleges are like in my area so what works here in the US for us may or may not work elsewhere. 

It might take time to adjust after working with younger children, and at some point if it continues to be frustrating or not fulfilling then it might be worth considering whether to stay in this job or to start considering other options.


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## limr (Nov 1, 2013)

Yeah, I agree. Listen to me! :mrgreen:


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## JacaRanda (Nov 1, 2013)

I went to my daughter's high school graduation a few years ago and there were enough honor students to make me proud. 
Good schools and teachers with strict rules, disciplinary actions, and high expectations turn out fine students (with the help of good parents)!

You would not have to drive too far to find quite a different story. Some teachers are faced with much more to worry about than someone eating in class.
It would be nice to wave a magic wand and fix all that ails us.

I am not a teacher, but the natural high I would get for reaching/impacting at least one student, would hopefully be enough to fulfill and keep me going.
Of course to make a living at it I would have to be extraordinary (competition is tough in almost everything I can think of) ; or be a part time photographer to really rake in the big bucks!


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## Tee (Nov 1, 2013)

KmH said:


> The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.



Wrong!  Try again.  I have a background in Instructional Design with an emphasis in adult learning.  You're alleging different learning styles means one isn't capable of hard work. That is simply untrue. Identifying learning styles is the key to understanding how to get students to work harder. Your archaic idea of 1950's learning is the reason why instruction is failing. 

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood" - St. Francis 

MC- Millenials have been placed in bubble wrap until graduation of high school. The idea of free thought has slowly diminished thus your frustration of why they would eat in class. Subtlety, innuendo, and assumption are not key traits of Millenials. What they need are clear and concise expectations and then follow-through when they are not met. The good news is teaching Millenials is no different than any previous generation.  We like to think they have gone to hell in a hand basket because it feeds our social narcissism and we are stuck in learning techniques from the 70's and 80's. Most teachers have no clue how much the internet and the effects of a electronically connected world have changed learning behaviors.


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## Tee (Nov 1, 2013)

Also forgot to add, if you're interested in learning about generational differences and similarities, check out the books based on the Strauss-Howe Generational Theory.


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## IByte (Nov 1, 2013)

My favorite learning style has always been reverse engineering, visual learning, hands on after reading the theory....yes I still use hard cover books.


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## JacaRanda (Nov 1, 2013)

Tee said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The notion that people have 'learning styles' is more psychology bull**** that just gives people an excuse for avoiding the hard work it actually takes to learn anything useful.
> ...



My son was diagnosed with A.D.D. in 5th or 6th grade - unfortunately after some years of getting yelled out and being put on restrictions.  It was tough to decide whether to give him meds or not.  It was easy to take a parenting class and learn that it was my job to figure out what made him tick.  We are all not created or wired equally.

BTW now he is 15 and the yelling and restrictions have started again - for really stupid shtuff he does :banghead:


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## Tee (Nov 1, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> My son was diagnosed with A.D.D. in 5th or 6th grade - unfortunately after some years of getting yelled out and being put on restrictions.  It was tough to decide whether to give him meds or not.  It was easy to take a parenting class and learn that it was my job to figure out what made him tick.  We are all not created or wired equally.
> 
> BTW now he is 15 and the yelling and restrictions have started again - for really stupid shtuff he does :banghead:



I had a student who was ADHD.  I gave him silly putty and comics to play with during class.  His brain was still processing the information being taught while he could stimulate his need for activity.  This doesn't work for everyone but it's out of the box thinking that produces results.


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## kathyt (Nov 1, 2013)

Tee said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > My son was diagnosed with A.D.D. in 5th or 6th grade - unfortunately after some years of getting yelled out and being put on restrictions.  It was tough to decide whether to give him meds or not.  It was easy to take a parenting class and learn that it was my job to figure out what made him tick.  We are all not created or wired equally.
> ...


Now this is thinking outside the box. Excellent.


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## limr (Nov 1, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



There is definitely a high that accompanies the moment when you realize you've reached someone. And it does carry you through a lot of bad times when dealing with the less enjoyable parts of the job.

Unfortunately, one can't eat and pay the bills on euphoria and emotional satisfaction. At some point, I need to be rewarded in a more material manner


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## Demers18 (Nov 1, 2013)

limr said:


> Don't smile!
> Okay, you can probably smile  It's important to be firm without looking like you're trying to hard. If the students can sense that you're barking too loud, they might think your bite isn't that bad. So now is not the time to be earnest and overstate things - just be very matter of fact about your rules without laboring the point.
> 
> They will test you, of course, and those first few tests to your authority will be the most important. It's hard to be inflexible if that's not your natural inclination, but it's better to be very strict at the start. You can always bend a little towards the end of the semester, but if you do so too quickly, they'll take advantage of that.
> ...



Thank you very much for the insight. I will definitely keep it all in mind. 
I'm happy I won't be thrown to wolves right away. I'll be sitting in on some classes next week and takes some notes while I prepare my course outline.
The group I'm teaching doesn't start until Nov 12th and thankfully I know the material quite well as I've been doing it for almost 10 years now. 

I also plan to start an Adult Education certificate in January which should come in handy.

Molested cow,

I sure feel for you. I wish I had some great words of wisdom for you...
I do have one saying that I got from my old instructor at trade school:  he said "in my first month of teaching, I was standing facing the board about to write something down. The class behind me was complete and utter chaos. I remember telling myself, "if I walk out that door rigtht now no-one will miss me and I could go back to what I know." But I decided to stick it ou and it was the best decision I ever made."

Seems to me like you're in a similar situation and honestly I would follow your gut. Only you know what is best for you and it sounds like you care. I would stick it out as it can only get better.


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## Steve5D (Nov 1, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> Students constantly having to be reminded to write their names on their assignments.



Stop reminding them, and let them watch you tear up the no-name assignments and throw them in the trash.

Give the offenders zero credit for those assignments...



> Students who won't do what I "strongly suggested (research methods and what to research)" and come to me the night before presentation day saying she/he can't figure out what to design.



Stop "suggesting", and start telling them what to do. When they fail to do that, give them no credit for that assignment...



> Students having breakfast in class.



Have you told them not to eat in class?

If not, do it, and then fail the first person who does it. Fail him for the entire semester.

Others will fall in line...



> Students having lunch in class.



Please refer to breakfast notes...



> Students having afternoon snack in class.



Please refer to lunch notes...



> Students sending one representative to negotiate a later dead line for their assignment ON THE SECOND WEEK OF SCHOOL.



Where in the Hell did they get the silly idea that deadlines were negotiable?



> Students who don't ask questions ( I gave them plenty chances to) and return with assignments that are utter crap. Imagine having to grade 73 copies of crap each week.



They're stupid. Fail them...



> Told student to write an essay, came back with some scribbled notes.



What's the mystery here? Scribbled notes are not an essay. Fail them...



> Last week, I gave a test that is supposed to be easy. All questions were directly from the lecture notes. Of which, there were exercises that I gave to them for practice weeks prior, and 75% of the students had no idea what they were doing.



They're stupid. Fail them...



> This means they had the chance to do the test before the test, and had the chance to ask me questions if they had problems. I practically gave them answers but they were to damn stupid to even realize it.



What's the point of an easy test? That very idea is silly. Give them difficult tests and, when they do poorly, fail them...



> And I teach in the so-called best design school in the country.



Based on what? From the sound of it, you've got a student body made up of blockheads...



> Why do I commute 1h15min on the subway each way daily to do this? It pays only 1/4 of my old job. I don't know, I just find myself taking the least comfortable and most torturous path every time.



If I may speak frankly, it sounds as though you're allowing the students to dictate the terms of their education.

Stop doing that.

You're the professor, they're the students. You make the rules, not them. When they fail to adhere to the rules, they need to suffer the consequences, and those consequences need to be severe enough to capture everyone's attention...


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## Josh66 (Nov 1, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > Students constantly having to be reminded to write their names on their assignments.
> ...


Yeah, I think I would just, you know - not grade, or even look at the papers that didn't have a name on them.  How can you grade it if you don't know who to assign the grade to?

Anyone that didn't turn in a paper (or neglected to put their name on it) gets a zero.


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## minicoop1985 (Nov 2, 2013)

Tee said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > My son was diagnosed with A.D.D. in 5th or 6th grade - unfortunately after some years of getting yelled out and being put on restrictions.  It was tough to decide whether to give him meds or not.  It was easy to take a parenting class and learn that it was my job to figure out what made him tick.  We are all not created or wired equally.
> ...



While this seems like it could be part of a joke (there's more than a few about ADHD and silly putty), these kinds of things work. I was diagnosed with it when I was in first grade and thrown on meds immediately. They did nothing for me, but small, detailed projects like building models are what helped me learn to cope. Unfortunately, recent information indicates that my diagnosis was completely wrong, and the ADHD-like symptoms are caused by something that would not have manifested in a diagnosable way at age 6. We'll see what that turns out to be... :neutral: :crazy:


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## Tailgunner (Nov 2, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> They're stupid. Fail them...
> 
> What's the mystery here? Scribbled notes are not an essay. Fail them...
> 
> They're stupid. Fail them...



Hahaha...agreed. You should start seeing a difference in attitude and performance once you start issuing zeros for crap papers.


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## mmaria (Nov 2, 2013)

OP, you got plenty to read and think about. 

I would like to hear from you after you make some decisions


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## IByte (Nov 2, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> Stop reminding them, and let them watch you tear up the no-name assignments and throw them in the trash.
> 
> Give the offenders zero credit for those assignments...
> 
> ...



^^^^BIIING!!


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## MiFleur (Nov 2, 2013)

I am a mother, a grand mother and a teacher, and from my experience kids of all ages need to know 3 things
- They are loved (never make it personal)
- What the rules are (I learned from a 4H club that some of the leaders used an agreement signed by the kids to acknowledge the rules, stick to the rules like a lifeline)
- Action must be taken ( things don't come easy, effort is rewarded, laziness has consequences)

today's parents are so busy that it is not easy to make follow-ups on the rules, sometimes it is the institution that has to teach that to the kids, but what does *your* institution want?
As a teacher,  what is required of you? 
Is your work appreciated?
Do you need to come up with a certain success rate?
Do you have the freedom to make kids that don't follow the rules fail their class?

The system we live in needs good notes also to proove that they offer the proper education, what is the pressure put on your shoulders?
If you go to your superiors and ask them clearly here is what I intend to do, do you support me.... you may find it easier!


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## Steve5D (Nov 2, 2013)

Tailgunner said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > They're stupid. Fail them...
> ...



Exactly.

I don't see the point in coddling students. If they're stupid, they need to know that they're stupid.

Fact is, most of them are probably quite intelligent, they just need to be grabbed by the short curlies and pulled back into line. 

Blame the students for not following directions. Blame the teacher for allowing them to get away with it...


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## molested_cow (Nov 2, 2013)

I never said I don't fail them or give them zero for crap. I do. If I show you the score list of my students, it's very ugly. Did I set the rules? I said it before. I did. However I shouldn't even have to. If college education has been degraded to middle school or elementary level, this is not acceptable. If we are expected to move backwards and hold them by their hands, and them train them until they are all mature enough to be the kind of adults the society needs, 4 years are not enough, because it will be high school + college. That's what the challenge is. It used to take 4 years to train a young adult to become capable work force. It will probably take double the time today, but we still only have 4 years, and in a time where there are fewer and fewer new borns and schools are starved of students to stay relevant, the priority is no longer "education". It's survival. This means schools want their programs to gear towards attracting more freshman, and make it almost impossible to kick any one out. The result is education can't produce the kind of talents that the industry needs. The industry lose faith in schools and cut off support to education, including collaboration efforts. The school continues to attract new students with false impression of the prospects of their programs and the industry suffers from a widening gap in recruiting new talents to sustain itself.

What I am frustrated is that the kind of future my retirement days will be is going to be terrible.


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## ratssass (Nov 2, 2013)

refer to my sig....


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## Tailgunner (Nov 2, 2013)

molested_cow said:


> I never said I don't fail them or give them zero for crap. I do. If I show you the score list of my students, it's very ugly. Did I set the rules? I said it before. I did. However I shouldn't even have to. If college education has been degraded to middle school or elementary level, this is not acceptable. If we are expected to move backwards and hold them by their hands, and them train them until they are all mature enough to be the kind of adults the society needs, 4 years are not enough, because it will be high school + college. That's what the challenge is. It used to take 4 years to train a young adult to become capable work force. It will probably take double the time today, but we still only have 4 years, and in a time where there are fewer and fewer new borns and schools are starved of students to stay relevant, the priority is no longer "education". It's survival. This means schools want their programs to gear towards attracting more freshman, and make it almost impossible to kick any one out. The result is education can't produce the kind of talents that the industry needs. The industry lose faith in schools and cut off support to education, including collaboration efforts. The school continues to attract new students with false impression of the prospects of their programs and the industry suffers from a widening gap in recruiting new talents to sustain itself.
> 
> What I am frustrated is that the kind of future my retirement days will be is going to be terrible.




OIC, a lot of this starts with the parents. We got kids raising kids, parents who just don't care, and the entitled group. Parents now days don't want to be the disciplinarians either like their parents and dedicate them selves to giving their child everything they never had. All I can say is keep issuing zeros until they start producing something worthy or otherwise they fail. The kids may not care but who ever is paying the bills should take notice.


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## NancyMoranG (Nov 2, 2013)

I am sure you are trying to do everything you can but are frustrated. Holding up a paper with no name on it and saying, "hmmm, too bad here, someone who got an A, doesn't even know it, and neither do I ", might let something sink in also.
i give all teachers credit and thank you!
Nancy


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## JacaRanda (Nov 2, 2013)

minicoop1985 said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> > JacaRanda said:
> ...



I also gave my son a little ball that had gel or puddy in it.  It did help to stimulate him and somehow make him concentrate more or better.  He used to fiddle with his pencil and spent much of homework time picking the pencil off the floor.


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## Stevepwns (Nov 3, 2013)

Anyone that joined the US military ( I did so i can only speak about American Military)  will know.  You know the rules, if you dont follow them, you are punished. If you then dont follow the rules, you are punished harder....  and so on.  Following rules is one thing, being able to keep up is totally different.  If your students simply arent following known rules, then they need to be punished. If they cant keep up, its up to them to come to you.  You are a teacher, not a babysitter.


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## o hey tyler (Nov 4, 2013)

Some teachers don't even care anymore... - The Meta Picture

thoughts?


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## amolitor (Nov 4, 2013)

Well for one thing it's faked. That's not to say that teachers all care deeply.


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## IByte (Nov 4, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> Anyone that joined the US military ( I did so i can only speak about American Military)  will know.  You know the rules, if you dont follow them, you are punished. If you then dont follow the rules, you are punished harder....  and so on.  Following rules is one thing, being able to keep up is totally different.  If your students simply arent following known rules, then they need to be punished. If they cant keep up, its up to them to come to you.  You are a teacher, not a babysitter.



God country and Corps!! We need structure like the military, and get America as a whole back up and lifting learning and dominating again! Oo

P.S.  Regardless of my little pep talk.  I respect everyone from everywhere.   Bacon and beer helps diplomacy.


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## limr (Nov 4, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> Some teachers don't even care anymore... - The Meta Picture
> 
> thoughts?





amolitor said:


> Well for one thing it's faked. That's not to say that teachers all care deeply.



Even if it's not faked, it doesn't mean that it was written by a crappy teacher who doesn't care. We don't know the relationship between this teacher and student. I tell my students that any attempt to fluff out the writing just to increase their word count will result in me simply crossing out the unnecessary crap and subtracting those words from the total word count (I give word limits, not page limits). If I had a student who wrote a good paper overall but was still having problems with this, and if the student had the kind of personality that could take this sort of lesson+gentle teasing, I could totally see myself writing this comment just to make a point. 

True, some teachers don't care that much. Others do care quite a bit but might get to a breaking point. They start out caring but then are faced with years of thankless work and all the blame for anything that goes wrong. There's a reason that teachers burn out so quickly and leave the profession. 

After months of writing on a student's paper that he needs to STOP writing thesis statements like, "In this essay, I will write about the causes of obesity," he was still writing them. It was clear as day that he was not reading any of my comments - just checking the grade and stuffing it in his bag. I gave him one more chance and wrote, "If you have a thesis statement like this in the next essay, you will receive an F for that assignment. READ MY COMMENTS." Guess what? He didn't. He got an F, plus the comment, "You clearly don't care, so I'll won't either."

Some teachers don't care. This is true. But neither do a lot of students.


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