# Help with photography needed: Socially Awkward



## TBAM (Oct 9, 2008)

I see many photographers do random photos of random people, sometimes random portraits, and I always wonder how they do it.

Do they ask for permission to take a photo?
Do they just randomly take it and hope noone notices?

I'm an amateur photographer looking to potentially get into professional photography. However i'm a bit socially awkward / defunct.

When I go out taking photos, even if it's of buildings, I often worry about being in peoples' way. Or that I might get someone in the photo that doesn't want to be in the photo.

I've done band photography, such as promo shots before and done pretty well, however i'm always quite nervous about getting people into poses, or getting them to make faces.

I'm more of a scavenger photographer, hehe, I tend to observe and capture what someone or something else sets up. 

What I'm asking, is are there any techniques that you photographers have for getting the confidence to move people around at whim, to find someone in front of you in an interesting position and just take a photo of them not caring about what they will say, even though you don't know them, for the greater artistic good.

To be the one to get in there and get a photo.


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## Solthar (Oct 9, 2008)

Heh, I'm the same way when it comes to people photography - I hate being the obtrusive man with a camera.

But as to your first question, the answer lies not in the previously expressed options, but in a hidden third; They keep an eye out for interesting people and places, take the picture, and if they get noticed they really don't care much.  

As to your second, much larger question...

It's all in the self confidence. or the act of self confidence.  If you act like you know what you're doing, usually people will be compliant (even if you really don't know what you're doing!).  

There was a huge discussion about a street photographer by the name of Bruce Gilden, http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138470 .  Take a look at the second post to view a video on how he works - a bit agressive for my tastes, but to each their own.

Hope that helps


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## tenlientl (Oct 9, 2008)

My first time going out and taking pictures was a couple days ago. It was a dad with his 2 daughters, probably around 6 flying a kite. They didn't seem to mind. Although I was taking pics of just the kite, and them from time to time.

I was gonna ask permission, but i feared he would say no, so I just started shooting.


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

Street photography candids.
YAY.
One of my most favorite types of photography.  Not to say I do much of it AT ALL, but I love it.
I'm still shy.  I thought it'd be easy to go out and get interesting shots of people.

I tried to find a link to something that was written up by one of my more favorite street photographers from another board, but I failed to find it.

I'll try to remember some of the things he says in it, though.

*Don't ask to take people's pictures.  But don't be all hidden and sneaky about it, either.  If someone catches you, nod, smile, and hold up your camera, so that they know that you have a camera and are taking pictures.

*if anyone dislikes that you've taken their picture(s), show them the picture and offer to delete it.  MOST people won't be belligerent about it.  But if they DO get nasty about it, it's up to you whether you delete it to avoid trouble, or tell them to go get screwed because you can take pictures of anyone you want to take pictures of.

*Having said that, TRY to avoid taking pictures of random children.  People OFTEN DO get upset if they catch you taking pictures of their children.  I know, I know, children make some of the BEST candids, but in this day and age, taking pictures of random children is extremely controversial, and even though you may have the best intentions of just taking an adorable shot, it is more often than not perceived wrong.
I mean, it's one thing if you have a child and you are at a social gathering with your child and other children are present.  But just walking around taking pictures of random children is not right.  On ANY level.


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## Overread (Oct 9, 2008)

setup a website for yourself - make some cheap card ids for yourself (name, email and website) and if you do get caught you can show your card to them and there is a chance that they might buy the shot off you -- of course you have to make certain to tell them that the shot of them is not going to be put on the internet for sale to anybody (hence why you have your e-mail on the card so that they can contact you direct to get the photo).
Its not about being a mercenary, but more about appearing professional in the public eye - that does a lot to help you - - and heck it might be the start of something good


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## esszeeeye (Oct 9, 2008)

TBAM said:


> I'm more of a scavenger photographer, hehe, I tend to observe and capture what someone or something else sets up.



Me,too.Lot of good shots come that way.

Using live view,if you have it, means you don't have to put the camera up to your eye.


I imagine I'm invisible,on the street-,if rumbled, smile broadly,laugh about something I did wrong-easy if ya have two left feet,like I do...
-Make your awkwardness your strength !


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

One word..telephoto ...I use my 55-250 to get some portraits of strangers without them even noticing


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

DavidSR said:


> One word..telephoto ...I use my 55-250 to get some portraits of strangers without them even noticing



thats just creepy and could be considered stalking..


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> thats just creepy and could be considered stalking..


 
So I suppose it better to get a 50mm prime and be in there face?  No point to take candid pictures if you have to ask them first..in my opinion you lose what you were originally going for the moment you ask..their expressions change all because they now KNOW someone is going to take their picture.  Just my opinion..many people go out on the streets with telephotos to get some candid pictures.  It's not illegal to take pitures of people as long as you are on public property .


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 9, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> thats just creepy and could be considered stalking..




no it's not... it's documenting human behavior unaltered by the presence of a camera.....


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

MOST street photographers that I know of, use just that: Their nifty fifty.
There are two main opinions on which lenses to use for street photography:  A telephoto, a prime, or a smaller focal ranged lens (like the 17-55mm).

Those that are not wanting to let people know they are taking their pictures, use telephotos.
Those that are open and honest about what they are doing use a prime or a smaller focal range lens.

You can still catch decent candids with a prime lens.  It's not impossible.  Even if you have to be up in the action, and people know you have a camera, chances are they're too busy to stop and pose for you anyway.
People doing things aren't going to always stop and pose for you just because you have a camera and they notice you taking pictures.


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

It's sad to say, but in Dallas..the only way of getting a candid is by using a telephoto, but if you don't have a fear of getting shot than I guess a prime will do nicely


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

DavidSR said:


> It's sad to say, but in Dallas..the only way of getting a candid is by using a telephoto, but if you don't have a fear of getting shot than I guess a prime will do nicely




oh no.  I have a rule, as much as I'd LOVE to get shots from not-so-nice areas of town, there's no way in hell I'd be caught walking around bad areas with my D300.
Maybe if I was a bigger, burly guy with a gun obviously strapped on my side, but as it stands I'm a small lady and concealed carry is not allowed in my state.

I will only go out to the not-so-nice parts of town when my husband is with me.  And I'm usually in my car, shooting from my window, with my 55-200mm lens.
There ARE times doing street photography with a telephoto lens is necessary.:mrgreen:


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> There ARE times doing street photography with a telephoto lens is necessary.:mrgreen:


 
I know some people might get by with a prime, but for the more timid photographer who is just getting started and not used to approaching people..a telephoto might also suit their needs.  Yeah, I don't carry a gun either so my telephoto is a must


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## 15two3 (Oct 9, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> no it's not... it's documenting human behavior unaltered by the presence of a camera.....




hahaha I like that.


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## maulrat (Oct 9, 2008)

Overread said:


> setup a website for yourself - make some cheap card ids for yourself (name, email and website) and if you do get caught you can show your card to them and there is a chance that they might buy the shot off you


 
I was thinking about doing this with my Smugmug account and some business cards. But insted of tell them about it "IF" you get caught, just ask first and had them your business card; showing that you are not afraid to let them know who you are (less suspicious). If they say no, then no problem. I can see how some people would think some stranger taking photos of kids might be planning to one day kidnap one of them. Sick people out there but it happens.

On the telephoto note, I wouldn't even use a telephoto to shoot kids. Hmm, maybe shoot kids doesn't sound correct, lol. I mean taking photos of kids. It makes you look more like a perv if you are taking photos of kids from a long distance because you're afraid to get caught. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong from photographing adults at a long range... unless of course your in a tree photographing through someone's window :mrgreen:


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

maulrat said:


> On the telephoto note, I wouldn't even use a telephoto to shoot kids. Hmm, maybe shoot kids doesn't sound correct, lol. I mean taking photos of kids.


 
But what about the nice bokeh you get from a telephoto???


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

DavidSR said:


> But what about the nice bokeh you get from a telephoto???



You can get even BETTER bokeh from a prime used properly because generally, primes open wider than telephotos do.


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

Man, there's just no winning with you is there? lol...Oh..one note..they do open wider, but it also might be difficult to gain the correct DOF to have the entire person in focus.


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## maulrat (Oct 9, 2008)

Just be like this chick. I'm sure no one would notice her photographing people using a telephoto lens. I bet she can get a nice bokeh too.


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## LaFoto (Oct 9, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> thats just creepy and could be considered stalking..


 
I don't think this is true. 


And in answer to the OP's question: if you feel awkward about taking people photos, don't begin with street photography, but start out with people you know. Family first. Then friends. At gatherings, or parties to begin with. Let them be and try to frame around them. If they want to pose, let them pose at first. Let them move and smile (or pull silly faces) in the way they at the moment want to do. Later, when they see the photos, they might say "Ugh! I look ugly/crazy/silly" and learn from their pic and be more natural/friendly/forthcoming the next time. 

Learn to overcome your social awkwardness in situations that make you feel ok about it all. Anything else would mean jumping the steps. Take them one at a time. 

And most of all: PLAY ... don't attempt to only create masterpieces from the outset. Don't force yourself, don't beat yourself in inwardly saying "I must take a good photo now". Doesn't work (well, doesn't with me). But when you sort of "play" with the camera, test this and that and other things, and later judge for yourself what you think works and what doesn't, you learn more about yourself. In the end, you might arrive at two things: good photos, and less inhibitions about taking them.


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## DavidSR (Oct 9, 2008)

maulrat said:


> Just be like this chick. I'm sure no one would notice her photographing people using a telephoto lens. I bet she can get a nice bokeh too.
> http://www.crestock.com/uploads/blog/2008/cameragear/*Canon-1200-2.jpg*


 
Smart guy..eh? Haha..I just realized you posted the same one as me..it's not a zoom, but a prime 

Here's a prime for your viewing pleasure..think this is a little less noticeable?

http://www.e-fotografija.com/markII/1200mm.jpg

EF 1200mm F/5.6 L


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

i guess my thought was, if you need to hide it, you shouldnt be doing it... I'm very much an outgoing person, and I very much take the bruce gilden approach ([ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM[/ame] ).. its my right to take pictures, if you have to be in the way when I take them, so be it.. if you really have a problem with it, I can delete the picture, but I've never run into this.. people generally just think your crazy... i find though that if you look semi offical, people dont question... if i was just walking around with a crappy little camera, people would ask questions.. but because I generally travel with 2 cameras on my side, people assume i'm with the press, and they say nothing...  if your to afraid to do it, you shouldnt be doing it.. gain some confidence (which photography really helps do) then go out and do it


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> i guess my thought was, if you need to hide it, you shouldnt be doing it... I'm very much an outgoing person, and I very much take the bruce gilden approach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkIWW6vwrvM ).. its my right to take pictures, if you have to be in the way when I take them, so be it.. if you really have a problem with it, I can delete the picture, but I've never run into this.. people generally just think your crazy... i find though that if you look semi offical, people dont question... if i was just walking around with a crappy little camera, people would ask questions.. but because I generally travel with 2 cameras on my side, people assume i'm with the press, and they say nothing...  if your to afraid to do it, you shouldnt be doing it.. gain some confidence (which photography really helps do) then go out and do it




This is how I feel about it, too.  Though I think Bruce Gilden is a bit TOO much.  Flashing your flash RIGHT IN people's faces IS rude.
I don't have THAT much confidence just yet, so I find street photography hard to do right now.  I am ALWAYS asked, when I'm out taking photos, if I work for the newspaper.  And that was when I only had my D60.
Anyway, I did have the courage and confidence to do street photography until I got screamed at by a lady.
And I would use a telephoto lens when in lesser than great neighborhoods.


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## tenlientl (Oct 9, 2008)

I planned on lying by saying im a student at a local school that's assigned to take photos of real people. It's to be submitted to a local news paper for an article about "life of the cool local people.

.....


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## mrcrassic (Oct 9, 2008)

TBAM said:


> I see many photographers do random photos of random people, sometimes random portraits, and I always wonder how they do it.
> 
> Do they ask for permission to take a photo?
> Do they just randomly take it and hope noone notices?
> ...



As an aside, I think that if you really want to make it as a _professional_ (regardless of field), you should really concentrate on building self-confidence and learning how to be more social. It's very difficult to make it in any field if you have trouble being around people. I've been there, and being on the "other" side is so much better.

Regarding photography, when I shoot people doing their thing, I try to do it in a way that they don't know I'm shooting them. If I really want a good shot (and it's for a purpose), I ask the people for permission to take a picture of them. No-one really likes knowing that someone, for whatever reason, took a photo of them and posted them online for the world to see, especially in dicier situations. 

I would like to believe that professional photographers have leverage when it comes to that, i.e., they can simply ask for a shot and get it...


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## mrcrassic (Oct 9, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> thats just creepy and could be considered stalking..



Precisely.


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## reg (Oct 9, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> in this day and age, taking pictures of random children is extremely controversial, and even though you may have the best intentions of just taking an adorable shot, it is more often than not perceived wrong.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But just walking around taking pictures of random children is not right.  On ANY level.



So which is it? Is it fundamentally wrong, or do people just say it is?


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

reg said:


> So which is it? Is it fundamentally wrong, or do people just say it is?




Which is it?
Out of this ENTIRE thread, THAT is what you choose to quote?
It depends on WHY you're taking pictures of random children.  But since you're taking pictures of RANDOM children, if that's all you're going out to do, regardless of your intent, you'll probably, at the very least, be questioned.

If some person I didn't know was taking pictures of either one of my children, I'd have to wonder WHY they were doing it.
I can see both sides.  I've taken pictures of random children, but I was also at a function with my son.  I didn't really know the children, though.
Not all of them.

But, to me, there's a difference between that and just some person without a child, going to a place where there are children and just sitting there taking pictures of just the children there.


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## maulrat (Oct 9, 2008)

getting a little hot in here. Time to adjust my tie and collar.

... "Flick says he saw some grizzly *bears* near Pulaski's *candy store*!"


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## reg (Oct 9, 2008)

Chewbecca said:


> Which is it?
> Out of this ENTIRE thread, THAT is what you choose to quote?



Your problem stems from *what*,exactly?

Your post was the first one I read. You contradicted yourself. I asked for clarification. You subsequently had a stroke.


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## TBAM (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks for the comments. I'll definately try, just doing my thing, and not worrying about what people think until they approach me.

That Bruce Gilden guy isn't too bad. It's a lot easier to do that kind of thing when people are walking somewhere on a busy street, as well as in America, flamboyant or "out there" actions don't seem to be that outrageous. Here in Oz, people aren't that hustle and bustle untless they're in the city, and where I would be doing photography like that if I was doing it, some people would come up and go "What the f you doing mate?", or they would just punch me out without even saying anything. 

However, perhaps I should be a little more brazen in my approach (maybe not Bruce Gilden brazen, but a little more confident). I often miss good opportunities by waiting for a moment when I feel comfortable.

Taking random photos of children, should, I guess, be the same as taking random photos of adults. Go nuts, but if you're approached, disclose your reasoning and offer to delete the pictures if they like, or they can purchase them. 

A solution for shooting children, and it not being weird, would be perhaps to shoot the parents too, or shoot some buildings so the police who arrest you for unlawful use of a weapon can at-least consider you unbiased...wait...I mean photos, that's right. hehe

In group situations i'm not too bad at coordinating people initially, it's when trouble arises and i need to fine-tune compositions that I feel like i'm bothering people, or being annoying.

I guess the uncomfortability comes from people who are a bit impatient when I'm there trying out some different exposure settings. Though perhaps I should forget about that, get a good exposure and do the rest in PP.


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## Chewbecca (Oct 9, 2008)

reg said:


> Your problem stems from *what*,exactly?
> 
> Your post was the first one I read. You contradicted yourself. I asked for clarification. You subsequently had a stroke.



stfu, reg.  Seriously.  You are a rotten person about 99% of the time here.
I'm so sorry I contradicted myself, reg.  I hope that it didn't ruin your day, and I also hope that I explained myself well enough that it meets *your* standards.

Thanks for the call-out, though.  I don't know how I would keep my head straight (or others' heads straight) without people like you.


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

TBAM said:


> I guess the uncomfortability comes from people who are a bit impatient when I'm there trying out some different exposure settings. Though perhaps I should forget about that, get a good exposure and do the rest in PP.



street photography isnt aout positioning people to make the shot look better... street photography is about photographing people in NATURAL settings... when they arent expecting it... you even see it in the Bruce Gilden video.. theres an old man, who stops and smiles, Bruce yells at him to keep going and stop smiling... when you get "posed look" you loose the element of "natural city life" people are in their own world when they are walking down the street, thats what makes it so interesting, people arent paying attention to other people, so they do what they want to do.. i've even been in situations where people were listening to an iPod and dancing down the sidewalk because they just dont pay attention to other people.. this is what makes good street photography.. people who arent expecting their picture to be taken.


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## nyamy (Oct 9, 2008)

I recently caught someone shooting my kids. we were on the boardwalk and I notice two women with nicer cameras than mine, taking aim at my little ones.
I walked over and said hello, they seemed embarrassed and showed me the shots and offered to send me prints. and I'm always a sucker for good shots of my kids.
for some reason, that creeps me out a whole lot less than some guy sitting on a rooftop with a zoom lens taking shots of the kids, but what I don't know can't hurt me, right? (I hope)

anyway, the funny thing is that they actually DID send the prints to us (gave them dh's office address) and they were HORRIBLE. ha! and there I was so impressed by the big cameras when I, a still wet behind the ears newbie, can do so much better.

but back to the original question....I agree with the poster who recommended having some cards made up and offer to send (free or not) the prints to anyone who seems irritated by your shooting them.


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

nyamy said:


> anyway, the funny thing is that they actually DID send the prints to us (gave them dh's office address) and they were HORRIBLE. ha! and there I was so impressed by the big cameras when I, a still wet behind the ears newbie, can do so much better.



just goes to show that you can have a fancy camera, if you dont know how to use it, you get crap


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## TBAM (Oct 9, 2008)

Sorry Chrisburke, perhaps I should have been not so generic in my posts. 

My post is more a double-pronged situation in general. 

1. I have the problem of feeling as though I'm being annoying, or might be offending people by taking a random shot of someone from close proximity. 

2. I can do group photography, and I can do posed portrait photography, however I do get nervous when I'm trying to take a photo, however the settings need a bit of tweaking, or I want to experiment, and then the subject gets irritable because they have to hold the pose, or re-pose every time I look at the picture I just took, adjust my settings and reshoot. It's mostly when I'm trying to work out how much fill flash I want, and if I'm using an external flash if I want it to reflect off the roof or a wall.

From viewing the Bruce Gilden video, it helped in showing me how some people get those random photos of people doing things. They don't ask, they don't warn. They just take. 

I don't want to do the same thing as him though. I felt the urge today, at lunch (though admitttedly the nervousness became a bit overbearing), however I didn't really see anyone interesting. Except, however, for a large girl in a red dress too small for her, black bike shorts, and bra in view. Going nuts at herself, and anyone else, whilst she paced backwards and forewards. 

I thought I would take a photo of her, but then I had a hairdressers appointment, thought i might be taking advantage of her "problems", even so. I said I would photograph her after I got out of the hairdresser, and, as always, by the time i had left she was gone.

That's a typical me, missing an opportunity. Making excuses for other people for why I shouldn't take their photo. 

I guess, it will get easy with practice and with continuously walking around with the camera.


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 9, 2008)

If you're shooting street with a telephoto lens you're doing it wrong.


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

TBAM said:


> I guess, it will get easy with practice and with continuously walking around with the camera.



you've hit the nail on the head here


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## maulrat (Oct 9, 2008)

tsaraleksi said:


> If you're shooting street with a telephoto lens you're doing it wrong.



So you are saying its better to go around with a nifty fifty, get in someone's face and hope they don't react to the camera before taking the shot?  It is kind of hard for me to act natural when someone is in my face with a camera.


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

maulrat said:


> So you are saying its better to go around with a nifty fifty, get in someone's face and hope they don't react to the camera before taking the shot?  It is kind of hard for me to act natural when someone is in my face with a camera.



its a fast process.. you see something, BOOM take the picture, dont stand there and wait, you just take it.. watch the bruce gilden video.. when he sees it, he takes it, instantly.. the people dont have time to react...


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## chrisburke (Oct 9, 2008)

heres a radio interview with Bruce Gilden.. he explains why he uses a small lens as opposed to a long..  [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEzm2disjM[/ame]


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 9, 2008)

maulrat said:


> So you are saying its better to go around with a nifty fifty, get in someone's face and hope they don't react to the camera before taking the shot?  It is kind of hard for me to act natural when someone is in my face with a camera.



Nah a 50 is to long. 

If you don't believe me, click here.


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## TBAM (Oct 9, 2008)

Those are some great street pics Tsaraleksi

Did any of them say anything after your photos? How did you get all of your settings close to perfect before shooting? Did you just use the same exposure settings?

Was that with any fill flash?

Do you stop and frame and then photo, or do you just take the photo and keep moving and hope for the best?

I would love to do work like that, but the Bruce Gilden approach is so unlike me that it would take me quite a long time to get the confidence to be that free with taking photos.


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 10, 2008)

TBAM said:


> Those are some great street pics Tsaraleksi
> 
> Did any of them say anything after your photos? How did you get all of your settings close to perfect before shooting? Did you just use the same exposure settings?
> 
> ...



It just depends. For some of them I sorta just stood somewhere and shot as people walked by, sometimes I shot as I walked. I kept the camera mostly on manual, and on AI-SERVO.


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## maulrat (Oct 10, 2008)

tsaraleksi said:


> It just depends. For some of them I sorta just stood somewhere and shot as people walked by, sometimes I shot as I walked. I kept the camera mostly on manual, and on AI-SERVO.



So you did a lot of the, "no look" shots?  I do that at parties sometimes.  I hold the camera casually around my neck, point in the general direction, autofocus and snap the shot.  Sometimes they notice if they hear the shot fired.


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 10, 2008)

maulrat said:


> So you did a lot of the, "no look" shots?  I do that at parties sometimes.  I hold the camera casually around my neck, point in the general direction, autofocus and snap the shot.  Sometimes they notice if they hear the shot fired.



The only 'hip shot' was the man in the cross walk. The other ones were all camera to face framed shots.


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## maulrat (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok.  I'm ready.  Next day I have off, I'm gonna have to go down town and try this out.  It is more acceptable to act a little crazy downtown than it is in the suburbs.  People care less you taking photos in heavily populated streets as oppose to a city park full of kids and parents.


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## TBAM (Oct 10, 2008)

Post some pics in here! 

I'll try and be a little brazen over the weekend and get some too.

I'm loving the word brazen right now! BRAZEN!


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## maulrat (Oct 10, 2008)

I think I will try to become a Photo-Sniper at point blank range this weekend.  I just need to take the train downtown.  Perhaps Monday would be a good day.  I'm a federal employee so I get the day off but many other people don't.  There should be some colorful people downtown on Monday


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## Chewbecca (Oct 10, 2008)

ooh, I'll be interested to see your shots, Maulrat!
Should be quite interesting.:mrgreen:


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## maulrat (Oct 10, 2008)

I just pray that I don't get my head kicked in.  I think the key is to find somewhere that has a lot of people traffic and dress not to impress.  Maybe it's just me but I'm less inclined to make conflict with someone who already looks a little nuts to begin with.


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