# Give away pictures for free???



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

I've been taking pictures for years but just really started getting serious about becoming a professional photographer.  All my Facebook friends think my pictures are great and can't wait for me to take pictures of them and their kids.  Because I admittedly am still learning and because I take care of my two young girls (ages 2 and 6 months), I am not going into business yet.  A number of friends on Facebook want to set up photo sessions with me.  My husband thinks I should take their pictures free of cost, only charge them at cost for prints, and give them a CD of their pictures.  I just think this would be a bad start for my business and that I should at the very least charge something above cost for prints and not just give away CDs of my photos.  I would be upfront with my friends about the costs and would let them know there is no pressure for them to have to order prints.  What do yall think?


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

I would suggest you post some of your best images for C&C, and let us help you determine whether or not you are at a level where you should even consider starting a business. Most people on Facebook are clueless about photography, and that is not necessarily a good way to judge your potential.

We do teach here, if it is needed or wanted.

In general, if you are good enough to charge... then you should charge! If you are not.. then you shouldn't be charging (IMO)!


----------



## sm4him (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> I've been taking pictures for years but just really started getting serious about becoming a professional photographer.  All my Facebook friends think my pictures are great and can't wait for me to take pictures of them and their kids.  Because I admittedly am still learning and because I take care of my two young girls (ages 2 and 6 months), _*I am not going into business yet*_.  A number of friends on Facebook want to set up photo sessions with me.  My husband thinks I should take their pictures free of cost, only charge them at cost for prints, and give them a CD of their pictures.  _*I just think this would be a bad start for my business*_ and that I should at the very least charge something above cost for prints and not just give away CDs of my photos.  I would be upfront with my friends about the costs and would let them know there is no pressure for them to have to order prints.  What do yall think?



How could it be bad for your business, if you're not going into business?  Sounds like what you mean is, you think you should make money at it, without having a "business." 

I can really only relate MY experience and thoughts here: I'm not a pro, and I'm really not interested in becoming one (at least as far as portrait photography). Therefore, when I do "shoots" for family or friends, I don't let them pay me.  They can reimburse me for any costs I incur (CDs, prints, or maybe if I need to rent a lens for the event), but I don't charge anything above that. Some have practically insisted, but when I explain my reasoning, they're generally okay with it. My reasoning--I'm NOT in business. If I start charging, it's a business. And THAT means I gotta have a business license and pay taxes, and deal with all that comes with a business. And I don't wanna do that, I just want to practice my skills and get better and have fun.  Sometimes, I may let someone "pay" me by treating me to lunch, or something like that.

If you are not in business, don't charge. If you're going to charge, then set up your business first. That's MY opinion.

As far as whether you SHOULD be "in business"--well, Charlie already addressed that quite well.


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 29, 2013)

Howdy from a fellow Texican.  I'm a "T Sip" (or so my Aggie wife tells me).  Welcome to the forum!

Post pics as Charlie suggested and let's see what you can do with the camera!  :mrgreen:


----------



## 12sndsgood (May 29, 2013)

one thing to keep in mind is that those people who are lining up for the free photshoots might not nessicarily line up for paid shoots.  I think you just need to decide what you want to do. start a business or not.


----------



## Gavjenks (May 29, 2013)

In my opinion, you should generally not charge (other than maybe costs) for your first couple of shoots in order to build up a portfolio.  This is only fair, because the clients don't really know what they're getting, so it is pretty unreasonable to charge them for blindly trusting you (whatever you have on facebook may not equate to a legit portrait shoot).

But once you DO have a portfolio, then people DO know what to expect, and it is perfectly reasonable to charge for your services.  If people are willing to pay based on what they see, then great!  You have yourself a business.  If you don't get anybody interested, then your portfolio is probably not as good as you thought. Change your prices and/or go back to square one and try to get some new photoshoots for free or at cost to practice and improve (and ask for help places like this forum).  Then trash your old portfolio and put up a new one and see if you get any bites, etc.


----------



## Derrel (May 29, 2013)

Don't think of it as "giving away pictures for free". NO. That's not the way to mentally frame this. Instead, think of it in a positive manner, an uplifting way. How about thinking of it as selling photos, but with a 90% discount on all orders? Those WalMart printing-out machines can make short work of entire discs full of .JPG files that you take in for printing.


----------



## amolitor (May 29, 2013)

If you're in business, or will be, money should probably change hands.

The direction is up to you. If you're building portfolio, it's not unreasonable to pay THEM to be models for you. This makes it crystal clear, even if there's a token dollar amount, who owns the pictures, who's in charge during the shoot, and so on. You needn't even make it a cash transaction, you can do "time for prints" -- but make it clear that They are working for You.

When you're working and working FOR someone, then money or at any rate some valuable consideration should pass the other way.

The murky business in the middle where nobody's getting paid is a problem, and there can be huge misunderstandings.

This has nothing to do with photography, really.


----------



## Gavjenks (May 29, 2013)

It would also help to get yourself a model release form (there are many great generic ones online).  Make one with fill in the blank spots for what each party receives from the deal.

If you're paying them to be models, you would fill in "$X" to them and "modeling services/2 hours of time" to you. E.g. for a magazine or an art print you want to sell to a third party.
If they are a portraiture client for family photos or something, then you would fill in "X many finished prints or digital photos" to them, and "$X" to you.
If no money is changing hands (friends, or building up a portfolio), then typically, it would be "X many finished prints or digital photos" to them, and "modeling services/2 hours of time" to you.

You also need the document to say who has what copyright or license for the photos.  You could print off various copies with different possibilities, or use fill in the blanks again.  Examples:

If you are photographing a model and paying them for it, like for a magazine or an art print that you intend to sell to a third party, then you would retain full copyright, and they would get no license at all.  In such cases, you may not even ever give them any prints, but if you did, they would only be allowed to put them in their portfolio as a model, not sell them OR modify them.

If you're doing family photos for a client, then I would by default give myself full copyright, but them an unlimited license to resell or whatever, in most cases. This lets us both have rights. If they complained about me having the right to sell their photos, then I might offer to give them exclusive rights (with the stipulation that I choose the photos to send and edit them first) at a slightly higher price instead, to offset my potential loss of income for not being able to sell to a third party.

Or whatever, blah blah. (Note that if all they are giving you is "modeling services" then you NEED to retain copyright in some degree, otherwise you aren't getting anything of value from the contract, and it may be legally invalid. Consider $1 as your payment instead, if you don't want to retain copyright)



Point being, if you have a nice document like this, it makes everything crystal clear to everybody.  Who is getting what out of the shoot?  Who owns the photos?  What can each party do with the photos?
Use a document even when shooting family and friends, to avoid misunderstandings and bitterness later on.  If it's your family, you might just give them prints in exchange for their "modeling services" or "1$" or something, but still use a document, for clarity.


----------



## slow231 (May 29, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> I would suggest you post some of your best images for C&C, and* let us help you determine whether or not you are at a level where you should even consider starting a business*. Most people on Facebook are clueless about photography, and that is not necessarily a good way to judge your potential.
> 
> We do teach here, if it is needed or wanted.
> 
> In general, if you are good enough to charge... then you should charge! If you are not.. then you shouldn't be charging (IMO)!



lol. i totally get where you're coming from, but man does this sound more than a bit pretentious.  it seems like the majority of members on this site are hobbiests and low level semi-professionals.  not exactly an expert jury on what customers want or are willing to pay for imo.  

it seems to me what really matters is the opinion of the paying customer base.  so ironically even though facebook may not a good measure  how good a person is as a photographer, it may be actually be a better gauge as to how well someone will do as a business since it more closely relates to the opinions of your customer base (to some degree). i've see plenty of so-so photographers get plenty of paying customers through facebook or other *customer *networking.  none of that necessarily relates (or correlates) to the opinions of those more involved in the field.


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 29, 2013)

slow231 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest you post some of your best images for C&C, and* let us help you determine whether or not you are at a level where you should even consider starting a business*. Most people on Facebook are clueless about photography, and that is not necessarily a good way to judge your potential.
> ...



Charlie?!  Say it ain't so!


----------



## KmH (May 29, 2013)

Here in the USA, you own the copyright as soon as the image is written to the camera's memory card.

It is uncommon for working photographers to sell or otherwise give up control of their copyrights. However today, retail photographers do usually grant non-commercial, private use only, reproduction use licensing rights to their retail clients when providing digital image files on a disc.
A use license is like a rental agreement. You still own the property (copyright) but contractually agree to allow someone else to use your property in some well defined way or ways.

While a model release clause may be included in a contract, the model release would only be part of a more extensive document- the contract.
Also model release law varies by state, so using generic ones online may not be advisable.
The prudent approach when starting a business is to consult with an atorney.

Giving your work product away sets a bad precedent. I agree with Derrel that presenting a invoice that shows what would be a full charge, less a discount as an introductory offer or for portfolio building, is a better way to approach getting started.

Topics | Texas.gov
Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov
www.score.org

The business of doing photography is very much more about business skills than photography skills.

Charlie repeatedly requests people new to or contemplating the business of photography to post photos. There are many successful retail photography businesses out there that make less than high quality photographs, because the business owner has business acumen, like salesmanship skills.
In other words the quality of the photos isn't necessarily all that important.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

slow231 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest you post some of your best images for C&C, and* let us help you determine whether or not you are at a level where you should even consider starting a business*. Most people on Facebook are clueless about photography, and that is not necessarily a good way to judge your potential.
> ...



If you say so... lol!

Considering most facebook types couldn't / wouldn't afford me anyway... I guess it doesn't really matter! SO you probably consider Craigslist a good marketing tool also?


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> slow231 said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Obviously I have no clue what I am talking about... I will just have to assume the past 40 years have been wasted! I didn't learn a thing!


----------



## HughGuessWho (May 29, 2013)

slow231 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest you post some of your best images for C&C, and* let us help you determine whether or not you are at a level where you should even consider starting a business*. Most people on Facebook are clueless about photography, and that is not necessarily a good way to judge your potential.
> ...



Trust me, when I tell you, with all due respect, you *will not* win that arguement on this forum. Save yourself some time and go take some pictures.


----------



## Ilovemycam (May 29, 2013)

Charge them $25 for a 45 min session plus expenses. Or whatever you like. I could never get anyone to model for free and give them 13 x 19 prints for free. If you can get paid, great for you! That is why I am a street photog, we are not dependent on models


----------



## slow231 (May 29, 2013)

HughGuessWho said:


> slow231 said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



i would probably agree, it's no surprise that the vast majority of the people on here have a bit more interest in producing and valuing quality work versus marketable work (and this is a good thing).  but all i'm saying is you don't necessarily have to be a good photographer in the eyes of experts to be marketable in the eyes of the general paying public.  and that's a fact demonstrated by the continued existence of many fully employed so-so photographers or photo studios (sears portrait studios, etc.).  this also applies to many fields, food, art, film, ...    honestly these days i see plenty of seasoned vets with huge customer bases with work that's not all that, and plenty of good photographers that struggle to get work.  business success is so much more than just the quality (at least the quality in my eyes) of the work.  dunno perhaps charlie and all the rest of you really do have your finger the pulse of her intended market (which right now seems to be kids pictures for her friends), but I don't. So I'll gladly give cc, advice, praise, etc., but I have no delusions about how my evaluation of her work has direct correlation with how well she could do as a business.


----------



## gsgary (May 29, 2013)

I have just bought some tools from a retired surgeon at our camera club i have already done 1 heart bypass op but wondered what to charge for the next one because i have lots of friend asking for one


----------



## tirediron (May 29, 2013)

slow231 said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > slow231 said:
> ...


True; even rather lacklustre photographers can do very well if they're good at marketing, but I think the part that you may have overlooked was the, "_All my *Facebook friends *think my pictures are great_".  Friends (unless your friends are photographers) will always think your work is great because (1) they're your friends; (2) it's better than they can do, and (3) they're your friends.  This is akin to designing your own dress and then asking your mother if she thinks it looks good.  

Putting aside the whole business aspect of things (because there's a LOT that you have to do before you start actually charging for services), get your photographic skills where they need to be.  There are a number of accomplished experts who spend time here will help get you where you need to be.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

slow231 said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > slow231 said:
> ...



So mediocre is ok, as long as  you can get paid for it? Sure... improving would be a waste of time if you can already get paid, right?


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

Lots of helpful information here.  Thanks so much!  I don't mind offering free sessions to help build my portfolio.  But I just don't want to set a bad precedent because in the next few years (once my girls start school), I do want to go into business full time.  My biggest issue was how he feels since they are my friends I should just give them the pictures on a CD.  The thing is, I know what I would have done back before I knew anything about photography---- if someone had given me a CD of pics, I would have taken it to Walgreens for development.  I work hard at my photos so I don't just want them printed at Walgreen quality.  My other issue is if I tell them how much the pictures are at cost then in a few years when I try to charge them 10-20 times that, they will know that my prices are inflated.  

What is the best way to post pictures here?  Directly from my computer or from a URL?  I don't mind posting with hopes of getting helpful feedback and not too much criticism (I've already admitted I'm still learning!)


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Lots of helpful information here.  Thanks so much!  I don't mind offering free sessions to help build my portfolio.  But I just don't want to set a bad precedent because in the next few years (once my girls start school), I do want to go into business full time.  My biggest issue was how he feels since they are my friends I should just give them the pictures on a CD.  The thing is, I know what I would have done back before I knew anything about photography---- if someone had given me a CD of pics, I would have taken it to Walgreens for development.  I work hard at my photos so I don't just want them printed at Walgreen quality.  My other issue is if I tell them how much the pictures are at cost then in a few years when I try to charge them 10-20 times that, they will know that my prices are inflated.
> 
> *What is the best way to post pictures here?  Directly from my computer or from a URL?  *Idon't mind posting with hopes of getting helpful feedback and not too much criticism (I've already admitted I'm still learning!)



Either! You can use a site like Flickr and post the HTML tags 




or you can to go to the UPLOAD PICTURE icon 



and select an image from your computer! Typically 60-70% web compression and 1000 pixels long side recommended


----------



## orljustin (May 29, 2013)

" I work hard at my photos so I don't just want them printed at Walgreen quality."

So, you've done a lot of comparative exploration of various printers and print quality and have come to the conclusion that Walgreens is not 'good enough' for your 'work'?  Sorry, but I'm guessing you have more to worry about than whether or not people print at Walgreens.  For the record, I use Walgreens for my printing needs, and am just fine with that.  Your Facebook friends won't know the difference between there and anywhere else.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)




----------



## frommrstomommy (May 29, 2013)

orljustin said:


> " I work hard at my photos so I don't just want them printed at Walgreen quality."
> 
> So, you've done a lot of comparative exploration of various printers and print quality and have come to the conclusion that Walgreens is not 'good enough' for your 'work'?  Sorry, but I'm guessing you have more to worry about than whether or not people print at Walgreens.  For the record, I use Walgreens for my printing needs, and am just fine with that.  *Your Facebook friends won't know the difference between there and anywhere else*.



I think there are plenty of people out there who will know the difference. I took photos for my neighbors yesterday and before we even got started they were asking me for a recommendation of where to have them printed. Clearly some people care and will appreciate the difference of quality printing.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

I disagree.  I think the quality of Walgreens prints suck and it is very easy to tell the difference between them and a print that actually gets the colors correct.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> I disagree.  I think the quality of Walgreens prints suck and it is very easy to tell the difference between them and a print that actually gets the colors correct.



I would have to agree! lol!


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> View attachment 46356




#1.. cute.. nice use of flash. I wish you had not chopped off mom's wrists... 

#2.. cute kid. To bright... take exposure down a notch or two

#3 ok

#4 not bad.. but a mom shot.. only a mom would love it.

#5  Love it.. she is gorgeous! A bit too tightly framed... but the  horizontal works here. I hope you also took a vertical shot like this..  with the girl emphasized more.


----------



## Derrel (May 29, 2013)

When you get machine prints run off on a very,very,very expensive, leased printer made by Noritsu or FujiFilm corp (you know the same machines used by Walgreens, Sam's Club,Costco), the key is to make sure that YOUR order is always printed out by ONLY the "right" pimply-faced kid that runs the machine. Usually, the slightly balding middle-aged manager type guy will mess up your prints, but the pimply-faced kid who's really "into it" will be the one that makes the better prints.

Printing depends a lot on the operator, and how well the machines are maintained and kept up to spec.


----------



## dbvirago (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> View attachment 46347
> 
> View attachment 46342
> 
> ...



I have to say, these are better than I was expecting. I really like 2 and 5. In the 1st one, straighten the horizon and next time, tone down the flash and bounce some light from underneath.


----------



## Derrel (May 29, 2013)

dbvirago said:
			
		

> I have to say, these are better than I was expecting. I really like 2 and 5. In the 1st one, straighten the horizon and next time, tone down the flash and bounce some light from underneath.



Yeah, I agree.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

Thanks for the input!  It's really interesting to hear the input.  No flash was used on any of the pictures--- Pic 1 was just a bright, sunny morning.  It's amazing I got any kind of picture out of the light that morning. Flash is something I still need to learn....  So while I don't understand it yet, I simply don't use it.   Mom's wrists are cropped because it was originally a vertical picture but I thought she would be self-conscious...   

2 and 5 are my girls.   The other kids are friends.


----------



## thisisferg (May 29, 2013)

I think these shots are of very good standard, and yes, you should charge for sessions.

It is not about how much you charge, it is the fact that people understand that you value your skill and time enough that you will not do it for free.  If you are uncomfortable with whether or not / how much you should charge, why not do the session for free, but then your clients only pay for what they want?  You can make the amount a summountable sum ($150 per image for example) or rather piddly ($5 for example).  As long as you are honest and up-front about the costs, your clients will be too - and the fact that they only pay for what they want is a fair, and open ended way of doing things.  You will also quickly learn that when people are paying for images, they suddenly become a lot more critical...so get your thickest skin on!

And as a by-note, Walgreens (I guess the same As ASDA and BOOTS here in the UK?) will offer a crazy variant in print quality.  I have worked with minilabs for nearly a decade now, and it is remarkable how much tlc the chemistry and racks need to consistently produce high quality prints.  That is the key - consistency.  You are much better off going through a pro-lab, whose sole job is to produce your images to their consistantly excellent standard, than you are a shop which sells jeans and pineapples on the side.  You may get excellent prints 10,20,30 times from Walgreens - but if you go in and get them done the day the chemistry dies, you will be utterly disappointed. Trust me.


----------



## sm4him (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Lots of helpful information here.  Thanks so much!  I don't mind offering free sessions to help build my portfolio.  But I just don't want to set a bad precedent because in the next few years (once my girls start school), I do want to go into business full time.  My biggest issue was how he feels since they are my friends I should just give them the pictures on a CD.  The thing is, I know what I would have done back before I knew anything about photography---- if someone had given me a CD of pics, I would have taken it to Walgreens for development.  I work hard at my photos so I don't just want them printed at Walgreen quality.  *My other issue is if I tell them how much the pictures are at cost then in a few years when I try to charge them 10-20 times that, they will know that my prices are inflated*.
> 
> What is the best way to post pictures here?  Directly from my computer or from a URL?  I don't mind posting with hopes of getting helpful feedback and not too much criticism (I've already admitted I'm still learning!)



Well, first, I'd say that YOU need to understand that your prices will NOT be "inflated" when you go into business and start charging.  
The way your price would be set (or SHOULD be set), once you start charging, is based on your CODB, cost of doing business.  You'll likely need better equipment than you have now, at the very least a lens upgrade or two, some flashes, reflectors, softboxes, diffusers, etc. That cost money. Then there's the wear and tear on your equipment--every shutter actuation brings that camera a teensy bit closer to the time you'll have to replace it.  Then there's your TIME--possibly a BIG difference here from doing a few shoots as a hobbyist. You'll spend considerably more time PROCESSING photos than taking them, so--unless you just enjoy working for less than minimum wage--that's gonna add a considerable chunk to the CODB. Then there's the business license, a marketing budget and all the other things I won't even go into (and lots of things *I* probably don't realize as well, since I'm not a pro). THAT is why you'll be charging them so much more.

Once YOU understand that, then perhaps you simply make your FRIENDS aware of that too: Just make them aware, up front, that while you "practice," they get to reap the benefit of cheap photography service, but if and when you decide to make a business of it, you'll have to charge them and then explain why.  Friends don't want friends earning $1.50 an hour, after all.


----------



## dbvirago (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Thanks for the input!  It's really interesting to hear the input.  No flash was used on any of the pictures--- Pic 1 was just a bright, sunny morning.  It's amazing I got any kind of picture out of the light that morning. Flash is something I still need to learn....  So while I don't understand it yet, I simply don't use it.   Mom's wrists are cropped because it was originally a vertical picture but I thought she would be self-conscious...
> 
> 2 and 5 are my girls.   The other kids are friends.



Hmmm. I thought the light was coming from high and slightly behind the subject. Thought it was a flash giving the hot spot on the child's forehead. Regardless, you have to learn how to control the light. Most important, you need to understand what is right and wrong with each of these; how to recreate what is right and how to fix what is wrong. That said, you have a good eye and a solid grasp of the basics.

In terms of charging, I think you should be charging. If you really want to do something for free, then like someone said, give them a 90% discount with the knowledge that the discount is a one time only offer. Two reasons for this, 1) No matter what anyone says, it's hard to charge people after you have given them something for free and B) People _want and expect _to pay for professional photography. If yours are free, then they will have no value.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Thanks for the input!  It's really interesting to hear the input.  No flash was used on any of the pictures--- Pic 1 was just a bright, sunny morning.  It's amazing I got any kind of picture out of the light that morning. Flash is something I still need to learn....  So while I don't understand it yet, I simply don't use it.   Mom's wrists are cropped because it was originally a vertical picture but I thought she would be self-conscious...
> 
> 2 and 5 are my girls.   The other kids are friends.



No flash on #1 ? Your Exif data shows flash fired.. I checked! That shot would be impossible without flash, or at least some good reflector usage. That is obvious, just looking at it.

[PhotoME]
PhotoME version: 0.79R17 (Build 856)

[Overview]
URL: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ay-pictures-free-skyleighbeachwatermark-l.jpg
File type: JPEG
File size: 147.4 KB
Creation date: 7/17/2012 11:04
Last modification: 5/29/2013 13:59
Make: NIKON CORPORATION (Nikon | Home)
Camera: NIKON D50
Software: Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4.4 (Windows)
Dimension: 800 x 573 px (0.5 MP)
Focal length: 18 mm
Aperture: F7.1
Exposure time: 1/500"
ISO speed rating: 200/24°
Program: Not defined
Metering Mode: Pattern
White Balance: Auto
*Flash: Flash fired, auto mode, return light detected*


----------



## sm4him (May 29, 2013)

dbvirago said:


> AggieBecky said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the input!  It's really interesting to hear the input.  No flash was used on any of the pictures--- Pic 1 was just a bright, sunny morning.  It's amazing I got any kind of picture out of the light that morning. Flash is something I still need to learn....  So while I don't understand it yet, I simply don't use it.   Mom's wrists are cropped because it was originally a vertical picture but I thought she would be self-conscious...
> ...



I don't totally disagree with this, it's just that, for me, if you're charging, then you'd better also have your business "ducks" in a row. Business license, state sales tax forms, quarterly income reporting.  A LOT of the amateur photographers out there charging for sessions are NOT doing this, and many, many of them are getting away with it...for a season.  And I have no idea whether the OP cares about keeping things completely ethical and legal or not, but for me personally, I just wouldn't charge unless I was willing to START THE BUSINESS and do it the right way.  Because if you're one of the unlucky ones that the IRS *does* catch, it WILL end badly.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

That actually surprises me but that's the one picture I took last year before I knew what I was doing.  You can check the other pics--- they were all taken recently, no flash, manual.  Sorry to mislead, I really did think it was no flash because it was such a bright, sunny day.


----------



## jwbryson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> I really did think it was no flash because it was such a bright, sunny day.




This speaks VOLUMES about your knowledge of photography.  Bright sunny days are often the days when you MOST need a flash.


----------



## KmH (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> My other issue is if I tell them how much the pictures are at cost then in a few years when I try to charge them 10-20 times that, they will know that my prices are inflated.


I find it utterly amazing just how many people don't get it. 

Walgreens, or any other print lab, _do not sell photographs_. They sell paper, and ink. The print lab customer has to provide the photograph that a print lab prints.

No one can go to Walgreens or any other print lab, and get photographs *you* made printed, until they have some how gotten the photographs you have made from you. 

You will be selling a luxury service, luxury product - custom made, high quality photographs.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

That picture was taken last year when I didn't know what I was doing so I'm surprised the camera's flash came up in such bright light.  And I have already admitted that I don't understand flash yet which is why I don't currently use it.  Clearly I still don't know what I'm doing.... thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## manicmike (May 29, 2013)

I don't know. I think these look pretty good. Right on par with a lot of the established businesses where I live.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

Thank you!  I know I'm still learning.


----------



## pixmedic (May 29, 2013)

I wont go into a whole dissertation on starting a business because you clearly stated that you aren't, but i will point out a few things. 
(some of these thing you might care about, some you may not)
when you charge money, even at "cost", that is income and should be reported as such for tax purposes. i know many here would call that silly but im a stickler for that one. (wife did a portrait for a neighbor last year. ONE 8x10 print, nothing else. $75 cash. it got reported on our business taxes) 
also, when you start charging money for your work, no matter what the cost is, you are putting yourself out there as a professional. 
you are telling people "I produce professional quality work that is good enough to charge for". this doesn't  mean that every picture has to be perfect before you can start charging. Lord knows I have been paid for work that was good, but not great. what it SHOULD mean is that you have enough knowledge, experience, and proper  equipment to produce quality work on a consistent basis in many types of shooting conditions. 

more important than any of those things is a well laid out business plan. when/if you ARE ready to make your photography a business, there is as much research and learning to do on good business practices as there is on the actual photography itself.


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> That actually surprises me but that's the one picture I took last year before I knew what I was doing.  You can check the other pics--- they were all taken recently, no flash, manual.  Sorry to mislead, I really did think it was no flash because it was such a bright, sunny day.



I would highly recommend that you get and learn to use, a good external flash! Especially if you are in any way, considering starting to shoot for money. Flash will allow you to shoot anywhere, anytime, any light... without it you are limited to ambient light (which is not usually a good thing). Many of us use flash even on bright, sunny days... myself included!


----------



## 12sndsgood (May 29, 2013)

Id say at this point you should start researching the in's and out's of running a business. You will deal with that part more then you will taking photos, so start learning all you can. While you are learning and getting your ducks in a row you should start going out and working on the parts of photography you don't know. To many people get good at one thing and tend to stick to it instead of working on the areas of there photography that they are lacking in Hence the huge amounts of "natural light photographers" (no offence to anyone who is, but you should learn flash, learn how to cope with low light situation, learn to shoot different aspects of photography so you can become a well rounded photographer. By then you should have a good grasp on the fundamentals on the business side of things and ready to open shop.


----------



## vintagesnaps (May 29, 2013)

Of the photos you posted I'd describe some as portraits and others more as the type pictures people take of their kids; but the photos seem to show that you have talent and potential to develop this into a photography business. The portraits of your kids are really quite lovely (I think adjusting exposure and framing etc. can be learned.)

I think it's a good idea to make clear from the beginning that this is (or will be once you get it off the ground) a business and it's your job/work. I wouldn't work for free - ask your husband if he wants to do his job/work and not get paid! LOL (He might be just as glad down the road when you're making some money at this!) I think you're right, if it's free now people may continue to have that expectation in the future.

When you start charging for your photos part of what people are paying for is not just your time but your training, even if you're self taught - it's the time you're spending learning and improving your skills, for portraits it could include buying lighting equipment and learning to use it, learning how to set yourself up in business, handling money and taxes, etc. etc. 

It sounds like you're planning to spend time getting yourself set up in business instead of jumping into it which is probably a wise decision. That will give you time to keep working on your skills to be able to be consistent with getting a proper exposure and well framed photographs. 

It sounds like you're planning to look into how to set up a business, where to get your prints done for future clients, etc. You could find info. on websites like ASMP and PPA; I recently got the latest edition of ASMP's book on professional business practices, as well as a book of sample photography forms by Tad Crawford. If you take some time to learn about doing this as a business that will probably be to your benefit in the long run.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 29, 2013)

Everyone here is so helpful.  Thank yall very much!  You are all definitely right.....  I had no intention of starting my photography business just yet anyway so that gives me time to improve my photography, learn flash, and start to understand the business side of things.  I'll just let all my Facebook fans know that I'm not re

I loved Understanding Exposure by Brian Peterson for learning general non-flash photography.  Does anyone know of a similar, simply written book, that teaches basic flash photography?  Or a book that would help me specifically when it comes to using flash with portraits?  What kind of flash should I look at getting?  I don't even know where to start!  (Sorry, maybe these questions are better asked on a different forum....)


----------



## snowbear (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Does anyone know of a similar, simply written book, that teaches basic flash photography?  Or a book that would help me specifically when it comes to using flash with portraits?  What kind of flash should I look at getting?  I don't even know where to start!  (Sorry, maybe these questions are better asked on a different forum....)



First, welcome aboard.  As far as information on flash, you can find a lot of good information at The Strobist


----------



## cgipson1 (May 29, 2013)

snowbear said:


> AggieBecky said:
> 
> 
> > First, welcome aboard.  As far as information on flash, you can find a lot of good information at The Strobist
> ...


----------



## amolitor (May 29, 2013)

I can't think if I ever actually read any specific single educational Thing on flash. I think I learned what a Guide Number was somehow years ago, and I've just thought through whatever it is that I know now in the intervening years. Of course you pick up a bit here and there when you're reading something specific on how to create some lighting pattern. Me, I'm the kind of guy where I have to make sense of it my own way anyways, so other people explaining it isn't that valuable for me. Just gimme the principles and then wait. Potentially for quite a while...

The thing about flash is that the principles are really pretty simple, and there's a ton of stuff that follows from them. Other things, there's a lot of principles, a lot of simple Facts You Gotta Know and Cannot Deduce.

Everyone's learning style is different, though!


----------



## kathyt (May 29, 2013)

AggieBecky said:


> Everyone here is so helpful.  Thank yall very much!  You are all definitely right.....  I had no intention of starting my photography business just yet anyway so that gives me time to improve my photography, learn flash, and start to understand the business side of things.  I'll just let all my Facebook fans know that I'm not re
> 
> I loved Understanding Exposure by Brian Peterson for learning general non-flash photography.  Does anyone know of a similar, simply written book, that teaches basic flash photography?  Or a book that would help me specifically when it comes to using flash with portraits?  What kind of flash should I look at getting?  I don't even know where to start!  (Sorry, maybe these questions are better asked on a different forum....)


Welcome to forum. You have successfully survived your first thread here with grace and class.  You should be proud and you will do well here, as well as learn a ton! Stick around and I promise you will take so much away from this forum if you put yourself out there.


----------



## JenR (May 30, 2013)

Welcome to TPF!  I have only skimmed the responses, so I may be repeating what others have already said.  If you charge ANYTHING (even a nickel), you are in business.  If the tax man catches up with you, it can get ugly and expensive in a hurry.  Until you are ready to set up a legal business with a business license, pay taxes, have insurance, etc; it is probably best to shoot your friends for free.  Let them treat you to lunch or swap babysitting or whatever to return the favor.

Also, you mentioned not wanting to set a pricing precedent--  In general, your buddies that are lining up for free or very inexpensive sessions are probably not the same people that will be willing and/or able to pay full prices that reflect the full cost of running a legitimate business.


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 30, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> AggieBecky said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone here is so helpful. Thank yall very much! You are all definitely right..... I had no intention of starting my photography business just yet anyway so that gives me time to improve my photography, learn flash, and start to understand the business side of things. I'll just let all my Facebook fans know that I'm not re
> ...



Good post, I was really expecting to see a lot of bashing going on at this point.  The Op has a lot to learn, the images posted were pretty much what I was expecting.  The only thing I want to add is, don't rush into  charging people for shoots, regardless of how great your face book friends believe they are, at this point in your photography, there is no pressure or stress to deliver consistently good photos, everything will change once you are being paid, you will start to stress over every detail, and it will only take one unhappy customer to de-rail your train.

Just enjoy what you are doing, you don't have to become a professional, it's an easy word to toss around, it's a tough word to consistently live up to.


----------



## kathyt (May 30, 2013)

When I first started I did not charge anything. I would get the concept in my head of what type of shoot I wanted to do, and then I would find the right people that I needed to fill those gaps. Once I was done, I would give them the top twenty or so images on a CD. I wanted the shoot to go the way I pictured it in my head. Therefore, I can't expect them to pay for it. I would also post watermarked images on my FB page to start building my portfolio. It was a win win situation. It is just like if you go to college, you have to pay for your education. Same here. You are paying, in terms of time and small amounts of product, to build your portfolio, get your name out there, and gain experience.


----------



## AggieBecky (May 30, 2013)

Thank you all very much for all of the great advice!  

So although there are a number of people who have posted on Facebook that they want me to take their kid's pictures, until today no one had actually sent me a private message about it.  Well today a good friend messaged me, asking if I would take portrait beach pictures of her girls.  She even stated in her message that she is willing to pay me for my work.  I sent her this message in response:

Yes, I would love to take your girls pictures on the beach one evening!  I'm not planning on going into business just yet but it is a future goal  that I have. Right now I'm trying to build my portfolio and to get  experience. So basically I'm looking to shoot completely for free with  your payment being permission to use the photos to better my business  (like to display them on my business website, Facebook page, etc). And  if you like any of the pictures that I take then I'll make prints for  you at a very discounted rate.  The 3rd or 4th week of June would likely  work best for me.  As far as what to wear--- it seems to me that white  looks best but any color should work.  Looking forward to it! 

Guess I've got a lot to do between now and then to prepare for my first "official" photo shoot.  By "discounted rate" I mean I'm going to give her pictures at cost so I'm not making any money off of the session.  I'm sure to have plenty of questions as I prepare so I'm definitely glad I found such a helpful forum.  Thank yall!!!


----------



## KmH (May 30, 2013)

FWIW - Your 'cost' includes much more than the cost of prints, or a CD.

https://nppa.org/calculator


----------



## AggieBecky (May 31, 2013)

KmH said:


> FWIW - Your 'cost' includes much more than the cost of prints, or a CD.
> 
> https://nppa.org/calculator



Good info for the future.  Thanks!


----------



## imagemaker46 (May 31, 2013)

As long as you don't lose money doing any shoots, it's the hidden costs that you may not think about, gas being one of them, it's a small cost even if you only drive a few blocks, but it adds up.  You could also barter for the shoots, if the person you are dealing with had something they could trade off, everyone wins.  There was a thread started on her a few weeks back by Steve 5D that we talked about trading goods for services.  It turns into a win/win


----------

