# Licensing for Friend's Band?



## DGMPhotography (Jun 21, 2016)

So I did a shoot for my friend for free to help with images for them to use for social media, etc. 

But they really liked one of them and want to license its use for 2 years for PR and worldwide, to use for album art, and posters. Neither of which they'll make money on. 

Any ideas for pricing? 

The research I've done suggested using a sliding scale based off of the client's marketing costs. They don't have an exact number, but it probably wouldn't be over $500 or so.


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## ronlane (Jun 21, 2016)

DGMPhotography said:


> But they really liked one of them and want to license its use for 2 years for PR and worldwide, to use for album art, and posters. *Neither of which they'll make money on.*



Huh? They won't make money off the albums? They don't sell their music? Not sure I'd be buying that at all, the art work would be part of the cost of producing the albums. Either way, no matter what you get for it is more than you were expecting, since you did the shoot for free to begin with.


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## waday (Jun 21, 2016)

ronlane said:


> Huh? They won't make money off the albums? They don't sell their music?


My thoughts, as well...


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## tirediron (Jun 21, 2016)

DGMPhotography said:


> ...Neither of which they'll make money on. ...


Do you mean they won't make a profit due to low sales and other costs, or that they are giving away the albums, or that sales are expected to be so low as to make virtually no money?


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## DGMPhotography (Jun 21, 2016)

Yes, they currently put out their music for free as they are trying to establish themselves.


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## Designer (Jun 21, 2016)

DGMPhotography said:


> Yes, they currently put out their music for free as they are trying to establish themselves.


Some photographers do that as well.  

Be sure your photo credit is prominently displayed along with your contact information.


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## ronlane (Jun 21, 2016)

Well then negotiate a fee with them for the image and go from there. Since there is no "royalties" that you have to worry about you can write up a 2 year usage agreement with them for that one image.


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## Braineack (Jun 21, 2016)




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## vintagesnaps (Jun 21, 2016)

Why in the world they're 'working' for free, I don't know, but so what?? how is that your problem? I thought you were or wanted to be a pro photographer. If you do, get on American Society of Media Photographers or PPA and figure out how to do it because this isn't it. 

The only band offhand that comes to mind that started out putting their music 'out there' themselves and became successful is Foster the People (and don't ask me how I even know that). But I don't think they did it by paying for albums and artwork etc., I think they got their music online first and built up a following, etc. Sounds like your friends might be better off to develop a business plan and learn some marketing - a vague idea of putting themselves 'out there' doesn't sound too promising.

The rate for one year's use of one photo in a brochure was around 500 several years ago. So 500 for 2 years of extensive use is low but I suppose not totally out of the ball park starting out, just get informed on a good licensing contract. (And you may be right Ron about that now, but what if the band does get a break and becomes successful in the next year, and they got a photo for a few hundred bucks and happen to get a record deal and start making loads of money...?)  

You don't always see photo credits depending on how and where the photos will be used. Maybe in liner notes but not on posters, and 'publicity' and 'worldwide' is way too vague.


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## waday (Jun 21, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> what if the band does get a break and becomes successful in the next year, and they got a photo for a few hundred bucks and happen to get a record deal and start making loads of money...?


Totally agree. There needs to be a clause in there, even if they anticipate zero money, just to be on the safe side.

If they make zero, you make zero. But if they make some, you make some. Why not have it in there just in case?


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## DGMPhotography (Jun 21, 2016)

Fair points, everyone. I'd love to have photo credits, but Sharon is right - with the way they want to use the photo, there wouldn't really be a place for it. 

As for why they're putting their music out for free... they just want to share their music. They still make money from shows, and they've been doing it for about 6 or 7 years now. They've developed a pretty decent following and simply want an image to use in their promotional efforts.

One successful artist that comes to mind is Chance the Rapper. He's doing pretty well for himself and has never sold a song. They make most of their money from shows and merchandise.

I have mentioned to him that if they suddenly become rich and famous, that they can make it up to me then. Otherwise, I'm thinking $150 as a favor.


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## table1349 (Jun 21, 2016)

Two ways to pursue this.  You could do what you said and charge a flat fee.  Or if they are any good and have a future you charge them a percentage of the profits.  A nice combination of the two might be good.  Flat fee for current advertising use and if they use it for an album cover something like .10¢ per album sale.  Don't laugh, there have been people that became millionaires off of such deals.


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## dennybeall (Jun 21, 2016)

So,, the albums and songs are given for free as advertising for their shows where they make MONEY. Your photo is a part of that advertising that makes them money.  I'd charge based on that not the free part. Perhaps you could get 2 or 3 hundred now and put together a photo package of the band that gets sold at the shows and you get 80% of that??


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## robbins.photo (Jun 21, 2016)

Or you could charge the $150 and a royalty fee for each album stating that you will be entitled to a royalty of 1% of the album price up to a maximum of 10 cents.  So if they keep giving away the albums with your cover on them for free, well 1% of nothing is nothing.  

If at some point though they start selling that album, then the royalties kick in and you start making a percentage of whatever they are selling albums for, so your covered either way.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 21, 2016)

Just cut them a deal. If their give it away free hits the right people and they end up making money down the road, contract it out that you get 10% of future sales off any additional albums.  You may end up making money or you may end up having your picture on a one and done band.


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## table1349 (Jun 21, 2016)

10% is a little high for such a deal in this kind of industry.  The 1% stated by robbins is in the ball park.  If they manage to have one gold record in their bands history the OP at 1% would net in the area of 85K to 100k.

George Lucas was the last of the folks that got stupid rich off of such deals when he directed the first Star Wars and had the rights to merchandising as his.  20th Century Fox and basically no other studio except Disney did any merchandising at the time and Disney's was nothing like it is today.

George also put Reese's Pieces on the map when Mars refused to let him use M&M's as ET's favorite candy in the movie of the same name.


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## beagle100 (Jun 21, 2016)

DGMPhotography said:


> Yes, they currently put out their music for free as they are trying to establish themselves.



if they are selling their music for free there is a high probability they want your photos for free


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## DGMPhotography (Jun 21, 2016)

beagle100 said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, they currently put out their music for free as they are trying to establish themselves.
> ...



No, he's my friend and he realizes the value of my work. He's the one who asked to license it and for the price. I've just never done it so I didn't know what to tell him. I like some of the ideas here.


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## jeffW (Jun 23, 2016)

Is he your good drinking buddy friend?  If so why not write up a license that states you get front row seats for life to any concert you want to attend. And if they want to relicense the image after two years because they are making money then state that.  Asking for a super low amount now (because you basically know much they can afford today) might not get you perks that tomorrow could be much more valuable.  It may also place yourself in a certain light(cheap) for any word of mouth recommendations.

While I agree 100% professionals should never ever work for free - sometimes with good friends the karma does come back.  I helped my friend on a remodeling project last year - he could easily of paid me $500 for my time.  I was content with burgers and beer this spring he helped me on an auto problem that could of easily cost me a $1,000 at a garage.

I absolutely agree you should have a license with the image, but charging $100 for a two year worldwide license that seems petty and more likely take away your perceived value.  If he's not a close friend, just an acquaintance ignore everything I've said. 

Why worldwide use if they are only selling locally?

p.s.  I think the license shouldn't be a blanket two year term - I think it best to have it for so many covers 5,000, 10,000 etc.  If they're making 10,000 CDs you should get money and not $100 bucks


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## DGMPhotography (Jun 23, 2016)

jeffW said:


> Is he your good drinking buddy friend?  If so why not write up a license that states you get front row seats for life to any concert you want to attend. And if they want to relicense the image after two years because they are making money then state that.  Asking for a super low amount now (because you basically know much they can afford today) might not get you perks that tomorrow could be much more valuable.  It may also place yourself in a certain light(cheap) for any word of mouth recommendations.
> 
> While I agree 100% professionals should never ever work for free - sometimes with good friends the karma does come back.  I helped my friend on a remodeling project last year - he could easily of paid me $500 for my time.  I was content with burgers and beer this spring he helped me on an auto problem that could of easily cost me a $1,000 at a garage.
> 
> ...



So you mean license it for free?


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## TheLibrarian (Jun 24, 2016)

I had no idea about the complexities of licensing. I've known 'musicians' and artists who've been giving it away for 20+ years and arent really making money playing shows either. The definition of professionals is making money at what you do. Are they full time? Do they have day jobs? Do your friend a favor or bleed him for all you can. Only you know what kind of money is on the table, what seems reasonable and acceptable to you both. Regardless of what the band makes plenty of aspiring models/ actors will pay $700 for a portfolio but i feel a lot of that is scammy. One pic for a shoot thats already been done, should be fairly straightforward to establish its market value. Guessing off the top of my head $200-$500 if not $30-$50 seems fair, royalties forever because your pics on an album cover (???) somebody said 10% of album sales ha! get it if you can. I'm not sure the band members get that much. Stuff costs that much these days i guess. I see people charging $100 for 30 minutes and 5 personal shots. That might be a good deal, $700 model portfolios likely dont get much more time from the extras wanted office down in times square, depends on your market and how y'all roll. Paris hilton gets thousands of dollars from her friends to organize their closet. Sorry i go on about stuff but have no idea what I'm talking about.


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