# In reality how difficult it is to shoot a wedding?



## imagemaker46 (May 22, 2011)

If you have skills, how difficult is it too shoot a wedding?  If you are not a social retard, have great personal people skills, understand how light works, and how weddings work, most are pretty standard formula.  They do involve some stress, require a backup plan if it's an outdoor shoot............but really if you are a good photographer to start with, how hard is it?


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 22, 2011)

Dude!

How difficult is it to do anything, once you have the skills?


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## imagemaker46 (May 22, 2011)

All I see on here is wedding photographers complaining about how everyone is shooting weddings . I don't shoot weddings, I've shot a few, I have great photographic skills, does that mean I could shoot wedding without any difficulty?  Personally I think wedding photography is overrated.  I know many wedding photographers, and yes they know how cameras work, are they greatly skilled photographers, not at all,  if just seems to me that weddings can be shot with a decent point and shoot.  Before all the overpriced wedding people get upset, I realise the there is a fine skill set to producing "those" special images and the straight up images.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 22, 2011)

I would really rather see you help people by critiquing images, than create another thread determined to raise some hair.


I actually have some respect for you. I just wish you found it in you to be *helpful*.

.


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## 480sparky (May 23, 2011)

I once did some (electrical) work for a world-renowned heart surgeon. He told me it was his belief that 95% of the world's population had the mental capacity to perform a heart operation.  I have no doubt he is correct, save for most people not being able to get past the issue of blood & human innards.

However, being a 'great photographer' does not automatically qualify you to be a 'great wedding photographer'.  I don't recall Ansel Adams ever posing a bride.


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## ghache (May 23, 2011)

go to bed, why are you even trying to raise hell on that subject, you dont even shoot weddings and why do you care. Like you said , you have probably 40 year of photography experience, I am sure you can answer that question yourself.


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## gsgary (May 23, 2011)

Here's a Yank that live just down the road from me that is quite good Documentary Nottingham Wedding Photographers, Derby Wedding Photographers


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## KmH (May 23, 2011)

I think it is more the pace, the fact other day do-overs are virtually impossible, the length of a typical wedding shooting day, and the volume of post production that make shooting weddings difficult.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 23, 2011)

So you are saying it is kinda _just_ like being a sports photographer!


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## imagemaker46 (May 23, 2011)

He has an amazing eye, so many of his photos are more art than just straight up wedding photos. Thanks for passing that web site along gsgary.


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## Mike_E (May 23, 2011)

Photography is the least important skill in being a _wedding_ photographer.

Having said that, the photographic skills you bring *define you* as a wedding photographer.


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## 2WheelPhoto (May 23, 2011)

this thread is going places


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## The_Traveler (May 23, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> If you are not a social *retard*, have great personal people skills


 
With due respect to the changing standards in English usage and disregarding the political correctness issue, if you used *retard* in this manner when trying to sell me anything, I'd walk away.


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## Derrel (May 23, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:
			
		

> If you are not a social retard, have great personal people skills, understand how light works, and how weddings work, most are pretty standard formula.



Are you sure that you meet the requirements you set forth? You're claiming you have "great personal people skills", and yet you will publicly use the word retard in a derogatory manner? Classy, man, classy. Yeah, you have great "personal people skills". SNORT! I am currently LMFAO off at you.


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## epp_b (May 23, 2011)

To create a plain, factual and uninteresting recording of events?  Not that difficult.  Speak for yourself, but that's not good enough for me.

To be constantly reinventing yourself, coming up with new compositions, new ways of seeing things and creating masterpieces that are beyond the call of duty, that make an artistic statement, that the couple will proudly hang on their walls for the rest of their lives?  _That's_ difficult.

I have a feeling that I will be posting this link with greater and greater frequency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger

It sounds like you are in the early stages: "oh, yeah, I theoretically know everything, it's just a matter of applying it."  Later, you will realize just how involved that application is in a practical situation.


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## bentcountershaft (May 23, 2011)

Shooting a wedding in reality is really nothing compared to shooting one in a fantasy world.  All those elves running about the place, the huge clouds of smoke billowing from the hobbit tables and don't even get me started on the orcs especially after they've been into the tequila.


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## gsgary (May 23, 2011)

Here's another that is ok Lovegrove Weddings ~ Onine Albums

and another http://www.sfdigital.co.uk/


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## KmH (May 23, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> So you are saying it is kinda _just_ like being a sports photographer!


Similar? Yep. The same? No.


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## Overread (May 23, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I once did some (electrical) work for a world-renowned heart surgeon. He told me it was his belief that 95% of the world's population had the mental capacity to perform a heart operation.  I have no doubt he is correct, save for most people not being able to get past the issue of blood & human innards.


 
I can well believe a statement like that - of course not everyone will be a "great/master" heart surgeon, but most would, with suitable training and experience (as well of course, with a good amount of self confidence and the physical ability (eg steady hands etc...)). Of course most won't rush in on hearts on their first day. 
My view on weddings is that firstly there is, most certainly, a stigma attached to them. For some reason you can shoot portraits, wildlife, sports, journalist, nude etc... no matter your experience level; but weddings raises photographer hackles. I guess partly its because bad wedding photography tends to hit the news a bit more than the rest, so its more at the forefront of peoples minds.


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## manaheim (May 23, 2011)

What defines "professional"?

Who's to say what is "art"?

Which is better?  Canon or Nikon?

HITLER!!!

There, did I cover it all?  Did I miss any?


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## mishele (May 23, 2011)

Cats VS Dogs........just sayin


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## STM (May 23, 2011)

Well it's not as difficult as brain surgery or quantum physics if that's what you are asking and if you screw up no one is going to die (hopefully). But there is A LOT to successfully photographing a wedding above and beyond "having the skills". And there is really no such thing as a "standard wedding". I don't do many any more, because to be honest, they have become a royal pain in the ass and the trouble is not worth the financial gain. People want $3000 worth of wedding coverage for $500. And there are plenty of "also rans' or GWC's (guys with cameras) who are willing to do it, usually with very predictably bad results. In wedding photography, just like portrait photography, you often get exactly what you pay for. Pay bottom dollar, get bottom dollar work. And unlike portrait photography, you only get one shot at a wedding, there are no "do overs". And all it takes is for you to really eff up one wedding and your rep is sunk. Good news reaches three people, bad news reaches NINE. 

The skills associated with outstanding wedding photography are only half the battle. There is the BUSINESS SIDE of it as well. And you will not be successful unless you have an "A" game in both. All the business savvy and acumen is worthless if you are a so so photographer. And the best click click boy on the block won't be successful unless he has a thorough understanding of the business side of it as well.

There are bazillions (sp?) of books out there, which provide a good basic foundation and will answer a lot of basic questions, but the bottom line is if you ever want to be successful at it, you need to work with a professional wedding photographer and learn all the intricacies of the biz.


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## STM (May 23, 2011)

manaheim said:


> What defines "professional"?
> 
> Who's to say what is "art"?
> 
> ...


 
Canon makes cameras? Who knew! I thought they only made printers and copiers...............:lmao:


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 23, 2011)

STM said:


> Canon makes cameras? Who knew! I thought they only made printers and copiers...............:lmao:


 
I thought you were cool, once.


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## STM (May 23, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> STM said:
> 
> 
> > Canon makes cameras? Who knew! I thought they only made printers and copiers...............:lmao:
> ...


 
Come on, now it was only a joke, I know Canon makes some really excellent _point and shoot cameras_!!! :lmao:


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 23, 2011)

"Dislike"


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## Joshonator (May 25, 2011)

I think it takes a lot of skill and planning to take great wedding photos. But it also depends on things outside of the photographer's control (weather, budget of wedding, co-operation with photographer). The actual shooting of pictures is probably the easiest part though. You have a set subject the whole time. I have a lot more respect for wildlife photographers who are willing to spend days wandering the wild in hope that they may get a good shot. So in my opinion wedding photography is probably one of the easiest types from the photography standpoint. It's true that there are no do-overs but really, if you take 2000 pics, which is pretty easy, you can just delete any that turn out bad and still have an extensive repertoire. Taking good shots of course also depends on the skill and creativity of the photographer (and having the right equipment) (and possibly people skills), but not any moreso than any other form of photography.

But in my opinion wedding photos are pretty overrated. Anything more than a simple photo is pretty much used for the sole purpose for the wife being able to show off to her friends how pretty her wedding was. Yes it only is supposed to happen once in your life. Well wake up to reality NOTHING really ever happens twice in your life. 

I'm sure the business side can be a challenge with great photography equipment being made so available.


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## Mike_E (May 25, 2011)

You guys haven't mentioned how important having a really photogenic couple is.  No matter how great a photographer you are if your subject matter is, ahem, pedestrian, so will be your shots.

And let's face it, most brides and grooms aren't Vogue meets GQ.

Sometimes attitude helps  















Hey, they liked it.


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## Joshonator (May 25, 2011)

I think that falls under the "out of the photographer's control" category I mentioned earlier .


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## seekinglight (May 25, 2011)

The shooting is the easiest part. The post processing is a lot of work. The first wedding will be very hard -best to be a second shooter for a few before disappointing someone with uninteresting or missed shots. Things move fast and are easy to miss. People get in the way. Churches and Halls have bright exit lights and things in the background that will ruin your shot. You'll need to quick change from bright outdoor light to dark indoor. Logistics. You'll want to plan creative shots. 

If you want to do it well -get practice first as a second shooter.


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## Kerbouchard (May 26, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> So you are saying it is kinda _just_ like being a sports photographer!



Except, in sports photography, if you take one great shot at an important event, it could make your career.  

One great shot in wedding photography will get you sued.


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## loopy (May 26, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> If you have skills, how difficult is it too shoot a wedding?  If you are not a social retard, have great personal people skills, understand how light works, and how weddings work, most are pretty standard formula.  They do involve some stress, require a backup plan if it's an outdoor shoot............but really if you are a good photographer to start with, how hard is it?



When my sister was getting married in the Dominican Republic in addition to the photographer she hired, my best friend picked up her camera for the first time (Canon DSLR Something) and shot the whole thing on auto. His pictures... well they were really good and he has no photography experience.

I've shot a couple of weddings myself, and was it all that hard? No. Did I get good shots? Yes. Would I attempt to do it for a living? HELL NO! I'm not a big people person, so there is a reason I turn down events, weddings and engagement shoots unless they are for close friend or family.

Obviously making a living from wedding photography is different but in general, IMO shooting a wedding isn't all that hard as long as you have photography skills, a good eye and are comfortable talking to/posing people. However being a successful wedding photographer is much more than that.


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## ghache (May 26, 2011)

loopy said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have skills, how difficult is it too shoot a wedding? If you are not a social retard, have great personal people skills, understand how light works, and how weddings work, most are pretty standard formula. They do involve some stress, require a backup plan if it's an outdoor shoot............but really if you are a good photographer to start with, how hard is it?
> ...


 

Shooting a wedding in one of the the world's nicest destination, blue water, blue skies, palm trees on a beach with plenty of difused light under a gazebo is not that hard. anyone could get really nice pictures on auto in this type of settings.

Try the same in a church with poor lightning, ****ty venues 200 fat aunts with point and shoot standing in your way and alot of other things that make shooting "regular" weddings a PITA, i am not a wedding photographer for these reasons. However, i would shoot a destination wedding tomorrow morning if i could.


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## camz (May 26, 2011)

Anyone who says that shooting a wedding isn't difficult hasn't had the _BrideZilla_ experience.  When your client gives you the freedom and a complete creative driver's license, it's a breeze from Elmo's touch.   Unfortunately, often _BrideZilla_ doesn't come out until the wedding day and believe me, at times I think to myself that war photographers got it easy


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

Although I tend to agree with the OP on that one, photography is photography, I don't think those two things go together well: Social skills and calling people retards just cancel the credibility...

But, yes, a wedding is like shooting a sporting event. Or a war. Isn't it just another event?




STM said:


> But there is A LOT to successfully photographing a wedding above and beyond "having the skills". And there is really no such thing as a "standard wedding".



That is what I thought until I went to a wedding photography seminar before getting involved myself. The seminar was given (for a hefty fee) by the top wedding photog in the US, back then, whose name I wouldn't mention even if I could remember it... All of his sets were the same except for the faces on the bodies. This guy had a formula that was applied to every single wedding no matter what and they were the most boring photos.

True, they were fine in all aspects except one: creativity. They were foocking boring. It was the exact same set from one wedding to the next. If it wasn't for the color of the bridesmaids dresses changing, you couldn't have seen any difference from one to the other


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## Overread (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> That is what I thought until I went to a wedding photography seminar before getting involved myself. The seminar was given (for a hefty fee) by the top wedding photog in the US, back then, whose name I wouldn't mention even if I could remember it... All of his sets were the same except for the faces on the bodies. This guy had a formula that was applied to every single wedding no matter what and they were the most boring photos.
> 
> True, they were fine in all aspects except one: creativity. They were foocking boring. It was the exact same set from one wedding to the next. If it wasn't for the color of the bridesmaids dresses changing, you couldn't have seen any difference from one to the other


 
Aye but I bet it works commercially because of two key things;
1) Your average customer sees something in your portfolio and wants the same for their wedding as well. Producing a repeated product, a standard constant is a very big key part of many modern companies.

2) The average client isn't exposed to that much wedding photography save when its their wedding. A wedding photographer or even just a keen amateur sees a lot of the same photography- they live and breath it. Thus the "standard" becomes ever so dull for them because they see it so often. 


There is a big difference between having a photographer or an artist as your client and having a regular average person. Of course there are those photographers who are able to charge and also retain their creative freedom, but even they will have a certain creative style. The poses won't be the same, but the creative eye will be similar - again its about producing a product to be sold - not about producing a product to change the industry.


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

Overread said:


> ...not about producing a product to change the industry.


 
Unfortunately that was exactly what this guy was doing. And considering the results I would call that a scam. Then again, I call most wedding photography a scam


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## Hardrock (May 26, 2011)

I've shot one wedding and I now understand why photographers charge so much and I have a greater appreciation for wedding photographers. Like others have said I think its the creativity of the wedding photographer that makes them great almost anyone can shoot a nice sharp headshot but to have an image full of emotion is another story. So of course any halfway decent photographer can shoot a wedding but  in the end the images will speak for themselves.


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> I've shot one wedding and I now understand why photographers charge so much and I have a greater appreciation for wedding photographers.



All that understanding from ONE wedding... Really?

And I beg to differ on the "images will speak for themselves." Total BS. I included some OOF shots in my albums when they helped the story being told. Get over it.


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## camz (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Then again, I call most wedding photography a scam


 
I had to ask.  To what degree?


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

It's over priced.

Mind you I over priced myself. If people are willing to pay...


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## Hardrock (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Hardrock said:
> 
> 
> > I've shot one wedding and I now understand why photographers charge so much and I have a greater appreciation for wedding photographers.
> ...


 
Im not really sure what your trying to say. But YES I gained alot of understanding from shooting one wedding. I realized it is very exhausting to try and keep up with the wedding , there is not much time to change lens or settings or move to a different part of the ceremony for a different shot, there isn't a reschedule for the wedding if you have any mistakes,  trying to get people to cooperate is a challenge all in itself,etc etc etc! And yes the Images do speak for themselves! Just take a look at all the wedding pictures posted here at TPF!


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> Im not really sure what your trying to say. But YES I gained alot of understanding from shooting one wedding.


 
I'm saying ONE wedding is not enough experience to know what you are talking about. Go shoot a few more. Then we'll talk again.

One of the most hard-ass photog on this forum (now on another one where no one dares tell him to fook off), preaching 10 years experience, mega gear pile, etc, etc, can't even shoot a decent engagement session...


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## Hardrock (May 26, 2011)

And thats not even talking about the hours spent editing and choosing the pictures! Maybe for a seasoned Wedding photographer its a breeze but getting there requires alot of time , money , and guidance.  And thats really the same for any trade... You get what you pay for!


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## Hardrock (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Hardrock said:
> 
> 
> > Im not really sure what your trying to say. But YES I gained alot of understanding from shooting one wedding.
> ...



Im starting to think that we are actually in agreement? I dont need to shoot anymore weddings to know that it is very difficult to come away from a wedding with some great shots that arent the norm!  I fully understand why people charge what the do.  For those very reasons stated above is why I dont plan on shooting another wedding.


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> Im starting to think that we are actually in agreement? I dont need to shoot anymore weddings to know that it is very difficult to come away from a wedding with some great shots that arent the norm!  I fully understand why people charge what the do.  For those very reasons stated above is why I dont plan on shooting another wedding.


 
You do?

Ok, sure.


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## Overread (May 26, 2011)

Hardrock said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Hardrock said:
> ...


 
You are in agreement of the point, but not necessarily the reason for the point itself. 
In short what I think he is getting at is that if you try any area of photography once it will be really challenging and hard. It's thus hard to say that wedding photography is any harder than any other simply because you've done it once - because everything is too new for it not to be hard and challenging. Thus you need a degree of breadth to the experience (ie shooting more) in order to really get to grips and find out "how" hard hard really is.


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## camz (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> It's over priced.
> 
> Mind you I over priced myself. If people are willing to pay...


 
Which applies to every type of product that's being sold out there where it's intrinsic material value does not justify it's monetary value.  Like an abstract painting that took two brush strokes to finish and sells out there for thousands and thousands.

We have to have some client accountability here as the client has choices on what to to pay and who to hire for the photographer.  A scam has no transparency whatsoever from the seller's point of view.

But I see what you're saying as there are photographers out there who sell 10k packages for nothing which I couldn't see myself doing regardless. But again that applies in alot of industries where the product has no practical use.


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## c.cloudwalker (May 26, 2011)

camz said:


> Like an abstract painting that took two brush strokes to finish and sells out there for thousands and thousands.


 
Do you paint? If not I take offense at this statement.

1/ It only takes one brush stroke to finish a canvas. The last one.
2/ It's usually the collectors making the big money, not the painters who sell for close to nothing in the first place.

Yes, I'm a painter. My work sells for quite a bit of money but a good chunk of it goes to the galleries that sell it. And if it takes me months to finish that canvas I don't want to even thing of what I get paid by the hour... So, please, talk about what you know.



And the fact that what I'm talking about happens in a lot of industries does not make it less of a scam.


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## camz (May 26, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> camz said:
> 
> 
> > Like an abstract painting that took two brush strokes to finish and sells out there for thousands and thousands.
> ...



Cloud, so you&#8217;re saying these galleries are selling your paintings and taking most of the profits from your work and you&#8217;re calling the wedding industry a scam?  lol. Regardless of industry practice, sorry to say buddy but I think you got yourself in the middle of your own description of a &#8220;scam&#8221;.

  It goes to show that you completely misunderstood me.  A wedding job where there&#8217;s client negotiations, the engagement shoot, edits of engagement shoot, engagement album design, engagement prints, wedding day shoot,  >2000 shots to cull of the wedding day, 900 shot edit of the wedding day, album design of the wedding day, print orders, and delivery packaging. 

Except for the high end wedding photographers that charge an arm and a leg,  based on what I mentioned how can you generalize wedding photography as a &#8220;scam&#8221;?  And for that matter you said you were a wedding photographer yourself.  All that tells me is that based on what you did, _you_ overpriced your product.  I sure don&#8217;t.

  You completely misunderstood my analogy of a painting. Whether or not it is a painting, a tickle me elmo, or a baseball card it does not matter.  Something selling that has no  intrinsic value will have a wide price gamut based on perception. If that&#8217;s your definition of a scam, then even your paintings are categorized as such as they too could be &#8220;overpriced&#8221;.

  Btw cloud you&#8217;re an @ss for calling my livelihood a &#8220;scam&#8221;.  How bloody dare you?!?! You made me write this long ass response.


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## Joshonator (May 27, 2011)

The world isn't fair. Accept it and move on instead of arguing about it.


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## ghache (May 27, 2011)

You guys are like 14 year old drama queens.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 27, 2011)

^ Pot/Kettle


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## runout68 (Jun 5, 2011)

YOU BETTER HAVE GOOD INSURANCE. If the pictures don't turn out you can be sued. FOR A LOT.  I would not recommend you shooting a wedding until you have gone with a professioanl photographer and learned wedding photography.  You are asking the bride to take a BIG chance on you missing pictures and not recording her wedding day as it should be. ONLY a professionaly trained and skilled wedding photographer should be shooting weddings. It is a onece in a lifetime event and no one should try photographing weddings just because they think they have good skills.  WEDDINGS ARE VERY HARD TO PHOTOGRAPH AND COVER. AND IF YOU MESS UP, THERE IS NO GOING BACK.  AND IF YOUR SUED YOU MAY HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE ALL THE DECORATIONS ETC. SET BACK AND RETAKEN.Just because you have some photo skills don't make you a
wedding photographer.  Please, please leave the wedding photography to trained professioanl wedding photographs.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 5, 2011)

Now, runout68, would you happen to be one of those highly trained wedding photographers?


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## Mike_E (Jun 5, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Now, runout68, would you happen to be one of those highly trained wedding photographers?


 
Natch   :lmao:


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## flea77 (Jun 5, 2011)

I think runout68 makes an interesting point....

No, taking a camera to a nice outdoor wedding and snapping some nice shots is not hard at all. Holding the button down on the camera and then weeding out 99% of the images to find 100 good shots over a five hour period where you took 4,000 shots, not hard. But that is not the job.

The job is the unexpected, and still delivering. It is the unpredictable, and still delivering. What do I mean? Here is the wedding story that keeps me in check....

So there was this wedding I was shooting a few years ago, easy money. Two hours, in a bar, LOTS of glass in the daytime so I had tons of light, maybe fifty people, in-click-out-done. So I am in the back of the room on the left side shooting the ceremony, "I now pronounce you man and wife, you may kiss the bride", no problem, already prefocused, exposure set, redundant cards, finger on the button......

The mother of the bride stands up to clap, right in my line of fire, cant move left, there is a wall, move right, the couple turns when they kiss and all I can see is the back of the groom's head. No shot. Almost got sued, to this day that bride badmouths me because "he missed the shot". All that because the parents of the bride arrived late and I did not have time to talk to them before it started (they flew in that day from out of the country) and explain what would be happening. Still my fault, period. 

Yes, it is about having the right equipment, yes it is about knowing what is going to happen, yes it is about photography skills, yes it is about business skills, but it is also about being prepared for any and all possibilities (at which I failed at that wedding). Now, I am prepared for an invasion from Mars at the same time Michael Jackson comes back from the dead to sing at the same venue the wedding is going on while the Blue Angels fly formation overhead while my camera fails because my phone caught on fire in my pocket and I dropped it as Seal Team Six charges in because the aunt of the groom's last name is Bin Laden. Got it covered!

If you are not prepared to deal with the consequences of the family holding up a 2 foot high, 10 foot wide banner right in your line of fire just as they are about to kiss that no one tild you about because it was a last minute suprise, pack it up and go home.

Allan


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## Mike_E (Jun 6, 2011)

flea77 said:


> I think runout68 makes an interesting point....
> 
> No, taking a camera to a nice outdoor wedding and snapping some nice shots is not hard at all. Holding the button down on the camera and then weeding out 99% of the images to find 100 good shots over a five hour period where you took 4,000 shots, not hard. But that is not the job.
> 
> ...


 
Being willing to step on a few toes is a must too.  

I don't shoot nearly as many as I used to but I don't tend to have Bridezilla issues because I use a contract that explains that I don't.  I  also make sure to have good communications with the bride so that she already knows what to expect from me and what I expect from her.

If I have trouble from the wedding party (aside from drunks and I tell the best man that he and the grooms men are responsible for those before hand) it's usually the mother of one of the couple.  Separation issues, drama major, inability to allow anyone else to be the center of attention or a whole range of other things, mothers are used to being in charge and sometimes don't relinquish the position gracefully.  Usually a quiet conversation as to just who's name is on the contract is enough although using a BIG flash on them a lot does tend to quieten them down.  In any case being understanding is very helpful so long as it doesn't stop you from stepping on those toes.


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