# Venting...



## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

On the weekend I shot a small wedding.  The bride was a childhood friend, although we had lost touch over the past 15 years or so.  We connected through Facebook once again.  She saw my photography work, and contacted me about her wedding.

She was looking for someone to give coverage for the ceremony and formals afterwards.  The brides sister (also MOH) is an artist who has been pursuing photography recently.  The bride was wanting her sister to do the rest of the photos, as she obviously could not cover the ceremony and formals.

On the wedding day, everythign seemed to go along smoothly.  There was a lot of waiting for family to get organized (I did have the help of a groomsman) but we stayed on time throughout.

During the day, however, I felt like I had a shadow.  And it wasn't the brides sister, but the sisters boyfriend.  He had the sisters camera and seemed to be everywhere that I was.  

Tonight I posted a couple of teaser pics on Facebook.  The bride just so happened to log on while I was on, so I sent her a link to the album.  She responded with a comment "Im looking at hers, but im way more excited to see yours!" I have no idea what that meant, other than the fact that her sister was also online, and maybe she sent the message accidentally to me?  I brushed it off - no need in overreacting to something when I didn't even understand it.

Then the kicker.  I go online later, and wow - there are my pics!  About 40 of them! I mean, the crop is a bit different, and the processing is different...but there they are.

The sister has posted her pics.  The ones the boyfriend took.  And they are all the poses I did.  The angles are two feet to the left of everything I worked so hard to do. The bride has RAVED about how awesome the photos are.

She didn't even comment once on the ones I posted.

ouch.


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## Big Mike (Jul 7, 2009)

If you were counting on print sales...you have good reason to be P.O.ed.

This problem isn't uncommon.  Sometimes it's someone really close to the B&G, or sometimes it's the infamous 'Uncle Bob'...or sometimes it's 25 people with digicams.  

I have a clause in my contract that says I am to be the only one taking photos.  Of course, that is rarely the case but I usually don't enforce the clause because it wouldn't look good on me...but in some situations it might be necessary.  

Of course, if you are selling the digital files, rather than prints...then you don't loose any money because of someone taking the same shots as you.


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## PhotoXopher (Jul 7, 2009)

That's pretty shady.


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## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't know what I will be selling now.  They paid by the hour, and with other sales to be determined. 

Maybe it was worth the small price they paid to have me there for 2 hours, just to set up the shots.

Hmm - seems sleeping on it just has me more upset.


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## Derek Zoolander (Jul 7, 2009)

The photographer at my sister's wedding asked people not to take photos and he kindly explained why. Obviously the person who got told was embarrassed, but everyone else understood.


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## tirediron (Jul 7, 2009)

Big Mike said:


> Of course, if you are selling the digital files, rather than prints...then you don't lose any money because of someone taking the same shots as you.


 
How d'ya figure that Mike?  If B-I-L or Sis has taken similar shots, and the Bride likes those, why is she going to spend money on Kristal's work?  

I agree this is low, but at least if you've been paid for your time, then other than wounded pride, you're not out anything.  I will say however that I think conducting any sort of business, even with [supposed] friends over websites like Facebook is both unprofessional and likely to lead to problems.


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## Christie Photo (Jul 7, 2009)

Wow...  though one.

When this has happened to me, it's usually not for the whole event.  I'll stop when it begins to interfere with what I'm doing.  For formals, at least for a while, I will hold the pose when I finish and allow anyone else to take a shot.  This, of course, slows everything and ends pretty quickly.  I won't this this beyond a few formals.  After that, we all just have to move on.

Good luck.

-Pete


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## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

I guess I need to address this in my contract.  I had just felt that the bride had specifically asked for certain coverage, and I full well knew that the sister would be there, and that we would overlap some of the shots as well. I was comfortable with the arrangement - and that really had nothing to do with an old friendship.

John, as for your comment about doing business over Facebook, I strongly disagree.
I alway meet with my clients in person, over coffe, with a contract, showing my portfolio and print samples. Most of my communication with clients is through regular email through my website.  I just am able to showcase my work quickly on Facebook, as I have a group there.  I would say I have received 90% of my business through Facebook to date. 

I think that if you approach social networking sites in a professional manner with your business, it is professional, economical and highly valuable.

I only send quick messages if time is short, ie. sending a mesage to the bride last night that her teaser pics were up.  Otherwise I would have emailed her with the private gallery login information from my website, including a small note that some teaser pics have also been placed on Facebook for viewing and sharing.  (I usually post 4-8 watermarked images that they can add to there profile, email to family and friends etc.)

As for not being out anything, I guess thats debatable.  I count on print or DVD sales when calculating my prices.  So for me to work for 2 hours, plus all the PP time, this will net me far less than my target price if no sales are made.

I guess that is another thing to re-evaluate.

Thanks again for the feedback.


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## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

I will claify that I was to shoot the ceremony, family formals and wedding party shots.  I was not doing any shots of the bride and groom alone.


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## Big Mike (Jul 7, 2009)

tirediron said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, if you are selling the digital files, rather than prints...then you don't lose any money because of someone taking the same shots as you.
> ...



For the most part, when you turn over the digital files, you won't get any print orders.  (if you do, that's great but I'd consider it a bonus rather than the norm).  So if you are indeed charging enough for the files, none of your income is reliant on print sales...you are essentially paid up front....so what does it matter if someone else takes the exact same photos as you?

But if your income is reliant on print sales, then obviousl you would be less likely to get orders of shots that the bride has files of (from somebody else).


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## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

I do not give the digital files, but I will sell them.  That being said, I may not even sell a disk of images due to this.


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## Nicholas James Photo (Jul 7, 2009)

Get paid an up front fee, it's the only way to gaurantee some money for your effort. Then everything else is a bonus.
Also, take the B&G away from the crowd for a while, then make sure that the exclusive shots are packaged in with the formals. A good time to get them on their own is the short space of time between ceremony and reception.
It's harder work than most people think but it's a great way to make an income, so persist.
Be firm (you have a job to do) but fair (they are friends or family of your client) and let everyone know that you are the pro.

And here is the most important point.... never never never agree to share the responsibility of photographing a wedding. If you are employing an assistant or second shooter that is a different thing,,,,,,,,,, but "sister of the bride who has been pursuing photography recently and is an artist" who also wants to be MOH and then passes her camera onto the boyfriend reeks of trouble from the word go.... 
The problem we all face at some point in are careers as wedding photographers is that at the begining we all want work, either for the money or experience so are willing to bend a little too much.
If it is for the money, stick to your work ethic, charge what you are worth and give great service.
If it is for experience, dont expect any financials and anything you do recieve will be a bonus, and takes out the threat of disappointment.
I have heard people say "I need to earn SOMETHING for my time. Only if you are pro or semi (part time) pro is this true.
Whatever, dont give up.


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## rub (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks for your comments.

I was paid up front, most defianately.  For every other wedding, my clients have picked a print package to suit their needs and budget.  This was the only wedding where I didnt have a set package for sales afterwards. (thats out of 6 weddings this year and 5 booked for next year) Mind you, it will be my last too.

I knew it was a vert strange request right from the beginning, but whenI booked this wedding (over a year ago) I guess I didn't realize just how ugly it could get.  And I definately didn't think the bf would be there as well.

As for getting the bride and groom away from the crowd, that is exactly what we did - I just wasnt hired to do those shots.  

I will definately be adding something into my contractfor my next clients, and I will discuss this with all the clients I have contracts with right now.

Now, do I just continue on, do all the post processing, and hope for the best?  Do I contact the bride and say that im feeling a bit upset with how the BIL/sister have really taken all the same shots that I set up, and I am concerned that it may not translate into any sales?

I just kind of feel like they needs to know this was kind of, low.  Especially the sister who is getitng into photography - maybe she just doesnt understand the implications as she is new.  I mean, hell, I sure didnt till now...

Kristal


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## Nicholas James Photo (Jul 8, 2009)

I would certainly carry on with your normal work flow, it will show how pro you are even under such difficult circumstances.
Yes I would contact the bride. I think that you have a real reason to be a little hacked off. Keep it simple, explain to her exactly what you have explained to us. I'm sure, given that she approached you, that she will understand.. if not, chalk it down to experience.

Keep at it Kristal


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## musicaleCA (Jul 8, 2009)

Grrr. Tough break.

Thanks for sharing though. Something to keep in mind for any of us who might get into wedding photography down the line.


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## DSPhotography (Jul 8, 2009)

I can kinda relate to you here, but in a different scenario. I've been doing photography (freelance/semi-pro) for quite some time now, and it's my dream to make a full on career out of it, which has been a bit of a struggle, but I'm determined. Anyway, recently, my girlfriends friend got married. After talking to me about pricing (which I have priced very fairly), she decided to get her friend to do it. Apparently she offered to do it for free, so whatever. 

Soon after the wedding, I find out the bride, who has never had any interest in photography, has started "working" with her photographer friend, doing photo editing (I've seen this girls work and it's ridiculously over photoshopped) and such. Okay, whatever. Yeah I've been trying to get a job in photography for a while now and she just walks into one, but it's doing photoshop (which I don't do), so whatever. Well then the bride starts calling me constantly, asking for help. Not in a "hey you're a really good photographer and I'd like some advice/tips/pointers" way, but instead it's asking for programs, how to use them, where to get PS filters, etc. This annoys me (with good reason). But again, I shrug it off because she's just doing piddly photo editing.

THEN the ****ty part (or one of them). I had taken my girlfriend out for a shoot. She HAS had an interest in photography since before I met her.. just never got serious with it. Anyway, we go out to this small waterfall along the canal and I teach her how to shoot with an SLR. I explain what apertures are, shutter speeds, how they work together, etc. She dives right in and wants to do 'soft' water shots, and with a little coaching, she got some really amazing shots.

So she tells her friend (the recent bride) about the shoot. Shows her the pictures and says "Yeah you've got to use a slow shutter to do shots like these. My boyfriend taught me." The friend says "cool.. these are really good." and that's it. 

The next day, I get a text from the friend: "How do I change the shutter on my camera?" me: "You have to use shutter mode or manual" her: "how do I do that?" me: "look in your instruction manual" her: "I can't find it" me: "look online". about 3 minutes later, my girlfriend gets a phone call from the ***** friend, asking for directions to the waterfall. 

Now, I'm not the kind of person to go "Hey, you can't take a photo of that cuz I did" or anything.. but it's just really annoying when this girl has no real passion for actually learning anything to do with photography.. she just thinks it's neat. She apparently figured out how to do a slow shutter because she pretty much copied my girlfriends shots exactly. She admitted to not fully even understanding how slow shutter works!

To make things worse, she's now getting gigs doing photos for calendars and getting hired out to do shoots and what not.

It just thoroughly pisses me off that someone like her stumbles into stuff like that with very little effort while I struggle to get my name out there.

Sorry for somewhat hi-jacking your thread.. I just get really annoyed when I start talking about that chick lol


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## rub (Jul 8, 2009)

No worries about the hijack 

I would be very frusterated in your situation too.  But remember that your best bet is to do the best possible work you can do, and I truly believe that it will pay offin the end.  Sure, she may grad a few jobs here and there, but if she doesnt have the skill, its not going to last.

That being said, I wouldn't poo poo photoshop either.  You may be from the camp that any editing is fake, but trust me, not all of your competition is. If the client wants perfection, and someone else can give it because of a little pp'ing - well, there goes your business.

Keep your head up and encourage your friend to get some education.


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## DSPhotography (Jul 8, 2009)

Haha thanks.. that's a good way to look at it. As for photoshopping, what I meant was that I tend not to photoshop because I generally don't need to. I shoot film, but I do have a high end negative scanner so I can offer "digital" files to people, but generally the only photoshopping I do is dust removal (which happens during the scan).. occasionally I will remove a blemish on the models face or straighten out the horizon if I realise it's a little off. I'm in no way saying I'm perfect, just that my (few) clients have been very happy with the end results. I know that with digital, there may be a need for pp more often as far as contrast or saturation goes.

Also, I was moreso referring to the type of photoshopping they do. It's not JUST pp'ing contrast, saturation, etc. It's things like selective coloring (which I personally don't like and if you thought it was overdone before, you haven't seen this chicks pictures lol) and vignetting... dear god, she frigging vignettes EVERY photo.


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## msf (Jul 13, 2009)

rub said:


> As for not being out anything, I guess thats debatable. I count on print or DVD sales when calculating my prices. So for me to work for 2 hours, plus all the PP time, this will net me far less than my target price if no sales are made.
> 
> I guess that is another thing to re-evaluate.
> 
> Thanks again for the feedback.



You could add a deposit on prints into your package pricing that is non refundable.  This way you are guarantee'd $xxx.xx amount of income in prints, even if someone else took the exact same shots.

Just a thought.

After reading this, this has reminded me that I need to get a contract.  Ive been pointed towards a book on amazon that has great contracts, but Id rather not spend the money atm, got other camera priorities.  

Does anyone have a link to some great contracts online that are free?


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## Soocom1 (Jul 13, 2009)

Few years back I had the very same problem. Except for one &#8220;guest" who happened to show up. He was seated in the guest area and was carrying what I can only guess to be a 5D, or 1Ds MkII. None the less he had somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 "L" series lenses that just shot my camera out of the water. He kept looking at me with this... "ha ha I&#8217;m better than you.." look and kept shooting despite the fact that I had a written and signed contract with a stipulation that I was to be the only photographer for the wedding.  Unfortunately, this is very, very common and can lead to very bad feelings.
The only thing you can do is lay down the law&#8230;


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## musicaleCA (Jul 13, 2009)

Soocom1 said:


> He kept looking at me with this... "ha ha Im better than you.."



The gear doesn't make the photographer. That kind of pretentiousness is the equivalent of having a gigantic epeen. Call it a campeen or something...


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## DSPhotography (Jul 14, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> Soocom1 said:
> 
> 
> > He kept looking at me with this... "ha ha Im better than you.."
> ...



So true.. but why is it that every wedding photographer I've ever seen has this "I'm so much better than you" air about them? And they also always seem really high strung.

I joked with my g/f after a wedding that maybe the reason I couldn't get any gigs as a wedding photographer was because I didn't present myself as a high-strung pretentious asshole lol


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## musicaleCA (Jul 14, 2009)

Pft. Well I've heard tell of a wedding photog in Vancouver who's using a Rebel for his work. All of this is hearsay, but apparently the guy got a 5D or similar recently and uses his Rebel primarily because he's more comfortable with it. Maybe people are more relaxed here in the north. 

Then again, people like that probably cater well to the richer upper class, who very well might be pretentious and have a holier-than-thou thing going on themselves; perhaps they wouldn't respect someone calling themselves a professional if they didn't act in the same way.

But whatever; that's all speculation.


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## Jeepnut28 (Jul 15, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> Pft. Well I've heard tell of a wedding photog in Vancouver who's using a Rebel for his work. All of this is hearsay, but apparently the guy got a 5D or similar recently and uses his Rebel primarily because he's more comfortable with it. Maybe people are more relaxed here in the north.
> 
> Then again, people like that probably cater well to the richer upper class, who very well might be pretentious and have a holier-than-thou thing going on themselves; perhaps they wouldn't respect someone calling themselves a professional if they didn't act in the same way.
> 
> But whatever; that's all speculation.


 

LOL.


I'd much rather shoot with my Rebel than my 40D.


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## msf (Jul 15, 2009)

Jeepnut28 said:


> LOL.
> 
> 
> I'd much rather shoot with my Rebel than my 40D.



I wonder what people would say about a photog using a digital leica camera.    To the uninformed, it looks like a p&s camera somewhat. : )


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