# Looking for advice on moving from a Amateur to Semi-Professional



## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

Hello All-

I'm new to the forum and any replies are greatly appreciated. I have Canon T3i with a EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens. I have a few accessories and a 580 EX flash on the way. I was contemplating getting into event/wedding photography part time on the weekends. Obviously, I would need to purchase quite a few items before even beginning to seriously attempt to undertake any job opportunity. I have a few questions that would really be helpful as I wouldnt want to invest in the wrong equipment. Mistakes can be costly of course.

I've decided I needed the following equipment at minimum before starting:

1: Stuff I own already: Canon T3i, Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens, and a Canon 580 EX II Flash. (I also have a battery grip, 3x 16GB Class 10 SD's, and a quality monopod and tripod)
Oh.. I also have a fast PC with the Full Adobe CS4 Creative Suite.

2: In my opinion, at bare minimum.... I would need to buy:
- Canon EF 24-70 mm - f/2.8 L USM - ($1400ish)
- Canon EF 70-200mm - f/2.8 L USM -  ($1400+ish)
- Canon EF 50mm f1.2 L USM ($1600ish)

I would also need a backup camera body(with a grip and batteries, see question below) and a spare lens or two, to compliment the list above. I figure a 430 EX II Flash for backup is also required in case my 580 fails.

My question(s) to the forum is... 

1: Would this be enough to get started?
2: Is the APS-C sensor adequate with quality lenses OR.... do I need to invest in a 35mm full frame like the EOS 5D Mark II? If a full frame was needed, any EF-S lens I own would be useless other then for the T3i backup. I might be able to save some cash on the EF-S lenses if I can get a few of the low aperture models available....   I bought the Canon T3i to learn with and I figured it would make a decent backup/travel camera in the future. Is maintaining the APS-C sensor system (I.E EOS 7D maybe) for my next camera satisfactory or do I need to spend bigger money and move to a 5D+?

Comments on my lens/equipment selections and the camera sensor system are appreciated.

Thanks~

Tom


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## The_Traveler (Aug 22, 2011)

How good a photographer are you?
It takes a lot more than adequate equipment to get good pictures.


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## Tomasko (Aug 22, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> How good a photographer are you?
> It takes a lot more than adequate equipment to get good pictures.


EXACTLY this just came on my mind while reading OP's post. 



> 1: Would this be enough to get started?


Hell no! What about knowledge and experience?
600D came to market just this year and it looks like it's your first DSLR camera. Now you decided you want to make money with it and go straight for weddings and events? LOL?
Maybe your post just gave a wrong impression, but if not.. well, good luck with that if you think that all it takes is a more expensive gear. I don't think you're ready for taking any jobs in photography if you have to ask such questions.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> How good a photographer are you?
> It takes a lot more than adequate equipment to get good pictures.



I feel like I'm OK. I have a little bit to learn however I would probably volunteer my time to a professional photographer as a second camera to build some experience and a portfolio. I'm highly technical, so the camera itself manipulation is fairly easy but experience comes with practice and I plan on doing that quite a bit before committing to shoot anyone's event as the primary.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

@ *Tomasko*

Again, I also agree with your point. I don't expect to be a professional overnight. I want to make sure I have invested in the right places so that I can practice, for free.... and learn. I made no claims of expertise. I would prefer to purchase the correct stuff so when I'm ready, I haven't wasted my cash.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

So is anyone willing to answer my questions or just flame me for asking them?


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## KmH (Aug 22, 2011)

You're asking the wrong questions.



> 2: In my opinion, at bare minimum.... I would need to buy:
> - Canon EF 24-70 mm - f/2.8 L USM - ($1400ish)
> - Canon EF 70-200mm - f/2.8 L USM -  ($1400+ish)
> - Canon EF 50mm f1.2 L USM ($1600ish)



Those are all nice, but more than the bare minimum needed, and as mentioned the gear does you no good if you don't know how to use it effectively, and the fact you have to ask indicates you don't.

Many look to the equipment as the way to make quality images when the photographer is the biggest influence on image quality.

I hope you realize you will need to register your business with at least the state (and likely the city too), have business liability, indemmity, and E&O insurance, collect and forward applicable state sales taxes, have an actionable contract, other legal paperwork, and maintain the records required by the feds, state and maybe the city.

You should be asking about things like marketing and promotion, products to offer, here in the General Shop Talk section of the forums.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 22, 2011)

post some pics.  It takes more than nice equipment to be a wedding photographer.  You may want to consider getting a 5D classic.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

> Many look to the equipment as the way to make quality images when the photographer is the biggest influence on image quality.
> 
> I hope you realize you will need to register your business with at least the state (and likely the city too), have business liability, indemmity, and E&O insurance, collect and forward applicable state sales taxes, have an actionable contract, other legal paperwork, and maintain the records required by the feds, state and maybe the city.



Wow, no one is capable of reading my OP. I am not a pro. I will not be charging anyone for anything anytime in the near future. I want to purchase the correct stuff so I can LEARN.  I don't need to setup a LLC right now. I don't need advice on insurance, liability, and contracts. I am not a moron. Just because I bought tiger woods driver I cant hit the ball like him..... I GET IT... for christ sake stop harping on the experience B.S. 

I had a simple question about APS-C vs Full frame and the quality of the lenses. Would it make more sense to purchase nice equipment one time, or "entry level" equipment for me, because apparently I'm a f-ing noob to all of you, and waste my money when in the end when I gain more experience and WANT better lenses. Its ok, I understand.... You were all professionals from birth. Thanks for the insightful feedback.

Oh and about setting up a company? How can I afford thousands of dollars in lenses and cameras...hmmm.... perhaps I know how to setup a company and run one that has been quite lucrative... wouldn't that be a shocker??


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## Tomasko (Aug 22, 2011)

I think you may have misunderstood what we were trying to explain (or at least what I was trying). It doesn't really matter, if you shoot with this lens or that lens. It doesn't matter if you use 10 assistants or shoot all by yourself. It doesn't matter, if you... 
All that matters is your experience and ability to adapt to situations that may occur. As you're saying by yourself, you're lacking on this part. When you get more experience, you'll understand what lenses/flashes/equipment you need to achieve photos you want. 
If you don't want to immediately start a business, don't spend thousands of dollars. Use the lenses and equipment you already posses. Go and shoot some friend's event with that gear (party, whatever). Try to get the best results you possibly can. Find your style, find your way you like to take photos of such events. After some time you'll find out, what exactly you lack and what exactly you need to buy. We can help you to choose some specific lenses, but what would it help if we start to name the equipment you may never use with your style of doing things?? Some lack to use only natural light with reflectors, some won't leave home without an external flash.... Some like to be real close to action, some take pictures from far.

Some people can take more stunning pictures with P&S than some "pros" with top notch gear.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

Tomasko said:


> Some people can take more stunning pictures with P&S than some "pros" with top notch gear.



I couldnt agree more with this statement. 

All I was hoping to understand was if my choices were adequate as want to invested in quality equipment. The last event I attended was a family wedding and posted the album online for my family. I got 5 emails asking if I could shoot for upcoming family weddings (I'm the oldest of 17 grandchildren). I declined all of them. Most of my shots were from a distance 5.6/80mm+, or of poor lighting quality because at the time I did not have an external flash and I was trying to stay away from the professional photographer at the event so my flash would not wash out his images and my presense would not obstruct him in anyway. I shot the entire event in manual mode with a onboard flash and due to lack of adequate flash bounce or a low enough aperture to capture the indoor dimly lit room properly from a distance (.. since I had to zoom out to avoid the existing photographer). Even so, I got amazing unexpected feedback from my family. I build data centers for a living so the technical side of photography appeals to me as it hits some of those aspects of how my brain works. I have been playing with camera's point and shoot's slowly progressing for years and have been told several times I have a good eye for photography. While I agree experience is everything, shooting in low light is extremely challenging, even for experts, without proper equipment. Thus my question reqarding equipment selection.


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## Twisted (Aug 22, 2011)

In my opinion a good photographer shouldn't need any of that expensive equipment at first. I know guys who can take better photos with a point and shoot than most guys with 3 grand worth of equipment.


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## Diddy2theJJ (Aug 22, 2011)

Hey TomWard,
Welcome to the forums! I would be very interested in seeing some of your photos as well. Do you have them online for people to see or can you post a few in this thread?


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## KmH (Aug 22, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Wow, no one is capable of reading my OP. I am not a pro. I will not be charging anyone for anything anytime in the near future. I want to purchase the correct stuff so I can LEARN.  I don't need to setup a LLC right now. I don't need advice on insurance, liability, and contracts. I am not a moron. Just because I bought tiger woods driver I cant hit the ball like him..... I GET IT... for christ sake stop harping on the experience B.S.
> 
> I had a simple question about APS-C vs Full frame and the quality of the lenses. Would it make more sense to purchase nice equipment one time, or "entry level" equipment for me, because apparently I'm a f-ing noob to all of you, and waste my money when in the end when I gain more experience and WANT better lenses. Its ok, I understand.... You were all professionals from birth. Thanks for the insightful feedback.
> 
> Oh and about setting up a company? How can I afford thousands of dollars in lenses and cameras...hmmm.... perhaps I know how to setup a company and run one that has been quite lucrative... wouldn't that be a shocker??



Then you posted in the wrong forum section and used a poor title, Tom.


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## gsgary (Aug 22, 2011)

TomWard said:


> > Many look to the equipment as the way to make quality images when the photographer is the biggest influence on image quality.
> >
> > I hope you realize you will need to register your business with at least the state (and likely the city too), have business liability, indemmity, and E&O insurance, collect and forward applicable state sales taxes, have an actionable contract, other legal paperwork, and maintain the records required by the feds, state and maybe the city.
> 
> ...




You don't need fancy gear to learn, if you have a lucrative business why would you want to shoot weddings ?


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

Trying to attach photos, will not allow me?


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## Tomasko (Aug 22, 2011)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-functions-pictoral-guide-using-tpf.html


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

> You don't need fancy gear to learn, if you have a lucrative business why would you want to shoot weddings ?



.... because building networks gets old and I enjoy photography. Not everything in life is about money.


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## christian.rudman (Aug 22, 2011)

I can say that one piece of gear that significantly improved my photography is a prime lens. I dunno about spending $1600 for a 1.2, but a decent 1.8 can be cheap as hell and sharper than your grandaddy's wit. The nice thing about primes is that they force you to move your feet to frame and compose the photograph, whereas zooms tend to negate that need. The difference is that all the moving around that comes from a prime can also force you to think differently about the shot and really work to get different feels and moods from your composition. I think you have a wonderful setup for doing what you are talking about, getting refined enough to be "semi-pro" will take years. Just focus on your photography and how it pleases you and the people you show it to (not your mom, she's no critic), worry about the business and "pro" side much later.


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

Tomasko said:


> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-functions-pictoral-guide-using-tpf.html



Posting by uploading directly to the forum.

The other option is uploading directly to the forum.  This can only be done if you are a TPF Subscriber.  (.... and the photo's are on my Fiance's facebook account which is private, or on my PC which is not a webserver.)


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## TomWard (Aug 22, 2011)

@ Christian
Thank you for the intelligent and insightful comment.


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## Tomasko (Aug 22, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Tomasko said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-functions-pictoral-guide-using-tpf.html
> ...


Are you a TPF subscriber ( = paying member)? Probably not. So use the part describing the other solution of putting your photos on this forum


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## The_Traveler (Aug 22, 2011)

Host your pictures on a site like Flickr, Photobucket, Imageshack and then use IMG tags to insert them here.


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## CCericola (Aug 22, 2011)

I think there is some misunderstandings here, In your first post you said you wanted to shoot weddings and events on the weekends. You did not say you wanted to apprentice with a professional, gain experience etc... You may have assumed we knew you would seek training first but you can never assume anything on this forum. The number of people who don't want to put in the time to learn outnumber you 1000 to 1.


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## Bayouvixens (Aug 22, 2011)

PM sent


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## tirediron (Aug 22, 2011)

Okay, I'll take a stab at answering your questions.  The lenses you've listed are a good start, but you're missing the wide end, ESPECIALLY if you stick with an APS-C body.  At a minimum add a Tokina 11-16 f2.8 to the list, and if the budget permits, Canon's equivalent of Nikons 14-24 f2.8.  The Rebel series bodies would do in a pinch, but I would not use them as a primary or even primary back-up body.  For one, the full-size sensor of a 5D II, or 1DS will have more dynamic range and less depth of field at a given aperture and focal length.  Both of which are very desirable qualities in wedding photography.  As well, while the pictures they record are just fine, their build quality is NOT up to sustained use, nor are they weather-sealed even a little bit.  Stand outside the church for an hour in the pouring rain, waiting for the late-arriving bride, and you'll quickly learn how important that is.  


The best favour you can do yourself is to "sign on" with a seasoned wedding photographer as his second/third and learn the trade.  You may be very knowledgable in the ways of business, you may be a stellar photographer, but weddings are a lot more complicated and stressful than many would think, and they are a once-in-a-lifetime event.  Mess one up and your name is mud!


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## manaheim (Aug 22, 2011)

First step on the road to being a pro... when asking for advice, never question the manner in which that advice is provided nor second guess the advice itself. Accept what you are given with respect and dignity, even if you disagree.


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## tirediron (Aug 22, 2011)

manaheim said:


> Firest step on the road to being a pro... when asking for advice, never question the manner in which that advice is provided nor second guess the advice itself.  Accept what you are given with respect and dignity, even if you disagree.


Perfectly put sir!


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## bennielou (Aug 23, 2011)

Hi Tom,  (Long post below)

As most people have already pointed out, photo ability and quality are more important that the equipment.  HOWEVER, equipment matters too.  

The reason why, is in wedding stuff, you will be doing some enlargements.  Sometimes VERY large enlargements, and what looks ok as a 4x6 or a FB upload, will look like total crap on an 8x10 or more.  (my normal enlargement is 16x20 and 20x24, but have gone as big as 30x50).  Your camera's sensor is just not gonna get there.  I would opt for the 5dM2 first.  

The two critical lenses you need are the 70-200 2.8 IS (yes, that part is important), and either the 50mm 1.2 or the 35mm 1.4.

The reasons why:  You will need a 70-200 with fast glass, IMAGE STABILIZED for churches. (A common setting for me is 2.8 60-80 shutter at 1600 or above ISO) Most times you CAN NOT use flash in a church.  You also are relegated to the very back of a football field of a church.  If you have a good stabilized lens, fast glass, and a great sensor AND PHOTOGRAPHY KNOWLEDGE this setup will work well for the church.

The 35mm or 50mm fast primes work well for those small crampt dressing rooms, wide shots, and overall reception stuff.  And for receptions, you can't go with anything slower than 2.8 eight out of ten times, if you want anything quality.  (go to settings for dark rooms is 1.4-2.8, 100-125 shutter, at 1600 or above-and that is WITH flash).

The flash you own is fine, but when shooting events, you will find that they "BURN UP" quickly.  And I mean that literally.    When they get too hot, you will need a backup. You will also need a quality battery pack.  I would suggest the Quantum.  Also for shooting formals inside the church (which is normally badly lit), I would suggest some additional lighting.  We use the Rangers, but I know others who do just fine with two additional speedlights on tripods.  For this you will also need some radio poppers, or pocket wizards or know how to sync.  (I don't do the external lighting on the team, so I'm kinda foggy about how all that works, but suffice it to say that I've got the neccessary lighting in place, because I know better).

And no, none of us started out as professionals.  At least in my experience, it was a very long road.  I started out in wire service photojournalism, and then apprenticed for various wedding photographers for a year (not as paid second shooter......bag hauler that worked my way up to the privelage to hold and shoot a camera) before I ever considered shooting a wedding.  And then, my first wedding, for a few hundred bucks, was a COMPLETE disaster.  So I started second shooting for a while, until I felt I was confident and ABLE enough to do a good job.

I take my clients VERY seriously.  I know weddings, or any other events, are a one time deal.  There are no redos.  

There is also a lot of legal stuff to deal with, as KmH mentioned.

Over the years, I've seen some horrific stuff from people who were convinced that they were "ready".  I've seen people be sued to hell and back because they were "happy" shooting weddings, but had absolutely NO CLUE how hard it actually is, and all the different things it emcompasses.  But I've also seen people who did the right things: studied, apprenticed, second shot, worked their way up on equipment, do ok too.


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## Railphotog (Aug 23, 2011)

bennielou said:


> Hi Tom, (Long post below)
> 
> As most people have already pointed out, photo ability and quality are more important that the equipment. HOWEVER, equipment matters too.
> 
> (a whole bunch of stuff deleted)



Wow, glad I'm not doing weddings any more!  While I don't disagree with what you've said, I am sure glad when I started doing part time weddings many years ago (35 or more) that there weren't Internet forums that could have discouraged me from trying.

I never worked with other wedding photographers, in fact I don't think I've even seen work by other local photographers nor have I been at a wedding shot by someone else.  If I was at a wedding, I was probably doing most of the photography, even for those of our two sons.

I of course used everyday film cameras and started with manual flash units.  You know the kind that you had to set the aperture according to how far away you were from the subject.  All seat of the pants, and pretty scary!   Thyristor flashes introduced later were a godsend!  Never burned up a flash nor had a battery pack, but did carry extra batteries.  Never even had a backup camera for the first 15 or so years.  Used mostly 100 ISO film, and 400 once in a while.

Never had an image stabilized lens, or an f/2.8 zoom, made do with the likes of a Vivitar Series 1 with f/3.5.  Took most church shots near where the ceremony was taking place, with the permission of the officiants of course.  Took shots from the back of the church using a telephoto and a tripod, also from the balcony if there was one.  Many church shots were with flash and slow shutter speeds.

Most enlargements I sold were 8 by 10's, with a few 11 by 14's.

I did have a few "disaster" weddings, one the flash unit went off all the time but was out of synch with the camera so I lost a bunch of photos.  It seemed to be working OK, and I didn't know there was a problem until I got the prints back.  The second problem shoot wasn't my fault, the photo lab screwed up the processing of the film, but many were still salvaged.

I never looked for work, got most from referrals, co-workers, relatives and friends.   I never really enjoyed the work, especially in the heat of a summer wedding.  But it made me some extra money to help pay for my camera gear and support my family.

Just glad I don't do weddings any more, because if I needed all the suggested gear I'd never be able to afford it.

Sorry for the rant!


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## bennielou (Aug 23, 2011)

Rants are sometimes needed.   Lets off steam, and all of that.

Just so you know, I am far from discouraging the OP.  We all start somewhere.  There are many different paths to making your mark.

As a strictly digital shooter from the getgo, I often have nightmares about what it was like for all you film shooters.  I'll freely admit that I couldn't have done it.  I'm a "chimp tweeker" who sets my camera due to the image I see on my digital screen.  If I had to role the dice and give people my film roles, I would most likely totally suck.  Plus, I wouldn't have the option to be my own lab, and do the photos according to my own vision.

Most of my work comes from referrals as well. 

Yes, times have changed.  I do some online mentoring for a guy who started out in film, years ago, and is trying hard to adapt to all the changes.  The market is hard right now because there are SO MANY photographers out there now.  From Aunt Jenny, the weekend warrior, the guy that bought a rebel last week, ad nausuim.  

And it's changed this dramatically over the last few years.  I'm sure you also remember the jump from film to digital and that put a lot of people out of business too.
But now, due to cheap camera pricing, do it yourself almost for free websites............everyone is a photographer.


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## orljustin (Aug 23, 2011)

TomWard said:


> > You don't need fancy gear to learn, if you have a lucrative business why would you want to shoot weddings ?
> 
> 
> 
> .... because building networks gets old and I enjoy photography. Not everything in life is about money.



So, go shoot butterflies and trees.  I mean, if you're not doing this for the money.


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## Diddy2theJJ (Aug 23, 2011)

TomWard,
It is a big thing to get into that's for sure. I had a friend encourage me to start shooting weddings. I had never shot one before, I didn't really know that much about using speedlights or bouncing flash etc. I had some commercial photography experience, but it was mostly product shots or vehicle shots and not that much with people. I had run a video camera for a couple of years at weddings, so I had been around weddings so I knew how crazy they could be and what it all entails. I finally just committed to doing a wedding....which scared the crap out of me but i figured if I didn't commit to one i wouldn't get off my butt and do it! haha 

I was pretty nervous about that first wedding, because there's only one chance at this, and if I messed up....well that would be really bad. So I read and read and read....and then experimented like crazy on family and friends with different techniques of lighting, and then finally came up with a plan on paper about a schedule for the day. The client was really happy with the way the photos turned out...and that made me want to keep doing weddings and also made me want to get better with my technique. 

You are right...everything in life sure isn't about money. It's about being happy and having fun...it's about different experiences and being able to be a part of the ones you choose to be a part of.

I like doing weddings, but they are also pretty stressful and make for a really long day.....I'll be honest, if they didn't pay so well, I probably wouldn't do them, but part of the fun for me is being able to run a business on the side and be successful at it. That's a really fulfilling feeling to me. I started off with 2 weddings the first year that I decided to do them, and I booked 10 this year in my second year...so I'm going to keep doing them and see where it takes me.

I hope this helps you! I'd still like to see some of your photos!


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## TomWard (Aug 23, 2011)

Diddy2theJJ said:


> TomWard,
> It is a big thing to get into that's for sure. I had a friend encourage me to start shooting weddings. I had never shot one before, I didn't really know that much about using speedlights or bouncing flash etc. I had some commercial photography experience, but it was mostly product shots or vehicle shots and not that much with people. I had run a video camera for a couple of years at weddings, so I had been around weddings so I knew how crazy they could be and what it all entails. I finally just committed to doing a wedding....which scared the crap out of me but i figured if I didn't commit to one i wouldn't get off my butt and do it! haha
> 
> I was pretty nervous about that first wedding, because there's only one chance at this, and if I messed up....well that would be really bad. So I read and read and read....and then experimented like crazy on family and friends with different techniques of lighting, and then finally came up with a plan on paper about a schedule for the day. The client was really happy with the way the photos turned out...and that made me want to keep doing weddings and also made me want to get better with my technique.
> ...



Here are a few screencaps so I dont have to upload 20MB raw images.... One set is my brother and his wife, the other set is a recent family wedding (purple girls) Notice the blonde in both is my sister in law and is in both sets of pics, once as bride, once as bridesmade.
http://nesba263.home.comcast.net/Desktop.zip . The quality is not amazing due to the size of the jpg but its more than adequate to see what I can shoot creatively.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 23, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Here are a few screencaps so I dont have to upload 20MB raw images..



I hope you do know that you can reduce 20 M raw files to screen size jpegs that will show nicely here.




TomWard said:


> but its more than adequate to see what I can shoot creatively.


TBH, these are just OK, not any more than that.


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## orljustin (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Diddy2theJJ said:
> 
> 
> > Here are a few screencaps so I dont have to upload 20MB raw images.... One set is my brother and his wife, the other set is a recent family wedding (purple girls) Notice the blonde in both is my sister in law and is in both sets of pics, once as bride, once as bridesmade.
> ...


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

orljustin said:


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## bennielou (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


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## orljustin (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

orljustin said:


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

I apologize if I offended you. This was not my intention. "LOL, I'm not looking at a .zip file of your desktop." ... implied that "Diddy" didnt even try to open anything and sounded very condescending.  I dont bring hostility online on purpose as its foolish however, the overall sense of "you are a noob" I'm getting from everyone with the exception of a few nice people irritated me.


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

bennielou said:


> TomWard said:
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## bennielou (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

bennielou said:


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## The_Traveler (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Ok. Now I explain why I submitted what I did and why. It became clear to me that no matter what I submitted, it would be inadequate in some form of another so I decided to play a little game. The Bill and Kristen series are from my camera, like I said in my last post, I was trying to stay away from the professional photographer at the event. The MikeandLiz1/2/3 photos are from a Professional Photographer on a FujiFilm FinePix S3Pro, who is extremely popular in the philadelphia metro area, therefore I did not take those images, she did. As a matter of fact, the so called underexposed images from the pro are so amazingly poor that the country club they got married at used them in any/all philadelphia bridal catalog advertisements for the last 5 or so years for the country club. *This just proves the point that you have no idea what you are taking about*, and coming here for advice was a mistake. They are in fact screen caps, as I did not want to release EXIF data with the shots and prevent honest opinions. I have a full paid smugmug account and a 35mb internet pipe. 20mb uploads are comical as is a CR2 to JPG conversion..... the point was and remains that no matter what I uploaded, it would be inadequate, and you proved me correct. Thanks.



Tom,

What this shows is that the country club doesn't have the highest of standards either.
My opinion is, still, that those pictures are OK but not spectacular.

You got off to a bad start here, coming off as so many have done, as one of those people who just got a camera and now is a pro.

What you have done here is, rather than being honest, set out to make yourself look smart and above all the rest of us.
I think this is rather childish and, as far as I'm concerned, you're done.

So I suggest you take your fully paid up SmugMug account and stuff it.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 24, 2011)

This is a brilliant thread!


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## MTVision (Aug 24, 2011)

Why would you post work that is not your own? That's kind of ridiculous. I can't look at the pictures because I am on my phone but just because "professional" photographers took them doesn't mean jack. I've had my camera for a month and I'm not even good enough to be considered an amateur. Yet I have been asked to do 2 weddings and 3 family portraits - all of which I declined. It just shows that the average everyday person will be happy with OK snapshots that have OK editing. My pictures have gotten ripped apart on here - which is kinda the point. I wont get better if i dont know whats wrong. I've seen non-noobs get their pictures criticized harshly on here as well. Don't take everything as a personal affront. If you really wanna do weddings nobody is going to stop you!!


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> This is a brilliant thread!



This thread is tragic. A few people have been kind though and I've gotten quite a few kind PM's.


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

MTVision said:


> Why would you post work that is not your own? That's kind of ridiculous.



I agree 100%. I only posted them as screen caps to prove a point that anything I posted would be inadequate, regardless if from myself (an absolute amateur) or a pro (who actually knew what she was doing). All I really wanted to know was if I was making the right equipment (lens and APS-C vs Full-Frame) purchases early in the thread.... then a flame war started and things got off track and out of control. Its actually kinda sad. I sent apologies to a few of the ppl in the thread.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 24, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Wow, no one is capable of reading my OP. I am not a pro. I will not be charging anyone for anything anytime in the near future. I want to purchase the correct stuff so I can LEARN. I don't need to setup a LLC right now. I don't need advice on insurance, liability, and contracts. I am not a moron. Just because I bought tiger woods driver I cant hit the ball like him..... I GET IT... for christ sake stop harping on the experience B.S.
> 
> I had a simple question about APS-C vs Full frame and the quality of the lenses. Would it make more sense to purchase nice equipment one time, or "entry level" equipment for me, because apparently I'm a f-ing noob to all of you, and waste my money when in the end when I gain more experience and WANT better lenses. Its ok, I understand.... You were all professionals from birth. Thanks for the insightful feedback.
> 
> Oh and about setting up a company? How can I afford thousands of dollars in lenses and cameras...hmmm.... perhaps I know how to setup a company and run one that has been quite lucrative... wouldn't that be a shocker??



It was fine until here when you started flaming people.
This site gets deluged with people who ask questions but give incomplete answers. 
No one wanted to give any answers until they had some inkling if you had some clue about the actual shooting.

You didn't point anyone to your site but purposefully played the newbie - and then tried to sandbag people who were only trying to help you the way that they've found is best.



TomWard said:


> I agree 100%. I only posted them as screen caps to prove a point that anything I posted would be inadequate, regardless if from myself (an absolute amateur) or a pro (who actually knew what she was doing). All I really wanted to know was if I was making the right equipment (lens and APS-C vs Full-Frame) purchases early in the thread.... then a flame war started and things got off track and out of control. Its actually kinda sad. I sent apologies to a few of the ppl in the thread.



Nope, not good enough for me.
You still think you've got everyone's number.

You're wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, you can be correct and find another place that fits your exact needs


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## MTVision (Aug 24, 2011)

From your original message I took it as you were planning on doing event/wedding photography on the weekend. You never said until later that you were going to volunteer/2nd shoot to learn. That is why ppl were asking how good you are. Lots of ppl come on here and are professional photographers with no experience. Can you see where everyone else was coming from? They said equipment doesn't matter - your skill does. Also, by working with a wedding photographer you will learn what you need. Everyone shoots differently so everyone is going to have different equipment. If one day you want to get into events and wedding then you should buy pro stuff instead of having to replace entry level. That makes sense to me at least. Nobody would've told you your pictures were crap because you posed them off - they wouldve told you what you did wrong/right in the picture. No matter what you probably would have gotten upset if they told you they didn't like something.


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## TomWard (Aug 24, 2011)

> Nope, not good enough for me.
> You still think you've got everyone's number.
> 
> You're wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, you can be correct and find another place that fits your exact needs



I'm sorry you feel that way and I did send you an apology in a private message. I don't think anything other than the thread got out of control and I acted inappropriately. At this point, I could just sign off and disregard any comments however I chose to apologize and respond alternatively. However "I still think I've got everyone's number?" . Actually no, I could just sign off, recreate a new avatar and become someone else. I feel that I was wrong and I stated that directly to you and if that's not good enough, so be it.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 24, 2011)

Tom, what you don't seem to get is that you still believe that peoples' response to your pictures would be affected by their impression of you - and their need to be superior 'pro's.

That is damn insulting, both that you would actually say that without knowing us at all and that you would be rude enough to persist in saying it.
You're the one that lied to us in an attempt to set us up, and then by persisting in your belief of our need to be superior, you continue to be insulting.


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## manaheim (Aug 25, 2011)

I'd just like to point out for the millionth time that professional=paid.

...oh and that I love the term "sandbagging".


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## orljustin (Aug 25, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> TomWard said:
> 
> 
> > What this shows is that the country club doesn't have the highest of standards either.
> ...


----------



## shortpants (Aug 25, 2011)

If you can't even figure out how to upload a picture and post it (or you're too lazy) there's not much hope for you.


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## TomWard (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks for the advice however if you read the complete thread, your statement may be different.


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## christian.rudman (Aug 25, 2011)

The bait and switch you pulled really is bad form sir. 

I'm sorry I offered any advice after having read the posts I now see before me. I would suggest not responding to this thread any longer, let things cool down for a while and maybe, maybe, try to start back up in this forum. For now I can't see that your continual insults to people who are valued members of this forum will be accepted well.

Seriously, you are on the lower rung in here, I would drop the condescending tones your posts have taken and apologies can only carry you so far. It seems as though this one dismal thread has killed any potential pity or empathy you could have here. I'm pulling a Pontius and washing my hands of the matter. 

Good luck in business with the obvious set of ethics you carry in your back pocket.


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## bennielou (Aug 25, 2011)

Tom, Tom, Tom............

I'm going to give you EASY step by step instructions on how to upload:

1.  Make two new files.  One will be Full.  One will be web. (or whatever names float your boat).
2.  Open whatever version of Photoshop you have.  Go to the top where it says "File", then go down to where it says "Automate".  Automate a batch that is 750 max pixels on either side.
3.  Open an account (free) at Photobucket.  Upload the files.
4.  When the files upload, copy the "img" portion, and paste them here.

Or you can just become a paid member of this forum and load them directly from your computer.

Easy Sneezy.


People who don't know you, who don't know if you are sending out a virus or not, are definately not going to go out and download zip files that may put their computers at risk.  They will most likely NEVER see your photos.

And frankly, if you can't be bothered to upload the photos to this site directly, you can't be angry that others can't be bothered to go out of their way to view them.


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## TomWard (Aug 25, 2011)

bennielou said:


> Tom, Tom, Tom............
> 
> I'm going to give you EASY step by step instructions on how to upload:
> 
> ...



tomward2's Photos | SmugMug   There are are the 2 original fujifilm pics from my the other photographer in the gallery. I just sent them up, so it may take a min for the server to process them but I did not take those 2 images. In the gallery are just some random pics I had uploaded, nothing particularly spectacular in the gallery. I havent had time to send much of my external HD up to the site yet.


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## gsgary (Aug 25, 2011)

TomWard said:


> Diddy2theJJ said:
> 
> 
> > TomWard,
> ...




Those are really creative, NOT


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## The_Traveler (Aug 25, 2011)

gsgary said:


> Those are really creative, NOT



Come on, grow up.
What are you - a 12 year old?


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## gsgary (Aug 25, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Those are really creative, NOT
> ...



Yes


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## TomWard (Aug 25, 2011)

gsgary said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...




Exactly why I did not post anything to begin with...


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## manaheim (Aug 25, 2011)

tirediron said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Firest step on the road to being a pro... when asking for advice, never question the manner in which that advice is provided nor second guess the advice itself. Accept what you are given with respect and dignity, even if you disagree.
> ...



Except for the spelling error. 

Thanks, though.


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## tirediron (Aug 25, 2011)

manaheim said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...


Minor.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 25, 2011)

If I throw enough money at purchasing surgical equipment, can I operate


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## TomWard (Aug 26, 2011)

2WheelPhoto said:


> If I throw enough money at purchasing surgical equipment, can I operate



Alternatively, can a qualified surgeon operate without proper tools? Can a surgeon practice and learn surgery with inadequate equipment? It goes both ways.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 26, 2011)

TomWard said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > If I throw enough money at purchasing surgical equipment, can I operate
> ...



Either way he'll be in the school house before he gets his own operating room/tools/business cards


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

TomWard said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > If I throw enough money at purchasing surgical equipment, can I operate
> ...



Not entirely.  2Wheel makes an awesome point that pretty much cuts right to the bone of the issue. (forgive the analogy)  Your retort is a cute strawman, but it is a strawman.

I'd give a trained surgeon way better odds of performing a heart transplant with a spork and some rubber cement, than I would give an untrained person with all the best tools available.

Good tools allow someone who knows how to use them to perform better work, but it doesn't make a clueless person perform their work better.  This is common in any field I can think of.

I am a trumpet player and have about 20 years of solid experience with it.  I have a reasonably high-end (call it prosumer) Vincent Bach silver trumpet.  Very nice instrument.  I once sat next to a kid with a Yamaha student horn and he asked about it and about how much it cost. ($2,500)  I told him and he was floored.  He asked if he could try it, so we switched for the evening.  I found the Yamaha to be fairly bright, somewhat brassy, but a functional instrument.  With work, I could  get quite a bit out of it, but it was clearly inferior.  As I listened to the kid, he sounded pretty much exactly as he did before... and in some cases worse.  It's not an easy instrument to play.  It's heavy and trends toward being rich and sombre.

At the end of the day we switched back.  I said "That's a solid horn you have there."  He laughed and said "Yeah, and it only cost me $300...that $2500 thing you play doesn't sound a lick better than my Yamaha.  I smiled and said, "Oh?"  He complained it was tough to even get sound out of it, that all the sounds that came out of it were so dull and flat, etc.  I laughed, pulled his music over and started playing his parts.  I appropriately flipped around between bright and sombre, light and heavy, loud and soft.  

At the end the kid looked at me funny and said, "Ok, seriously, how did you do that?"

I smiled, stood up, and said "Experience", and walked away.


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## TomWard (Aug 26, 2011)

manaheim said:


> TomWard said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...



Fair statement. I agree completely. I bought a T3i to begin with, not a Mark 1.... I read the reviews and it wasnt a fiscal decision.. This was my $300 trumpet to learn on, to drop on the floor, to beat the hell out of and force to its limits so I know what is important in my next purchase. Glass however is one item that extends your options. Glass does not make a photo but some photos are much harder without it. My next purchase will probably be a 50mm prime lens with a low aperture. I have the cash to burn though, and I want to buy some higher end glass. If you found me charging for anything in 5 years,  I personally would be surprised. I have a ton to learn. I work in IT and like photography, there are 80% average or worse engineers, 19% good engineers, and 1% outstanding engineers. Yet they all think they are pro's as they work in the field. I would say I'm about a 5 on a scale of 1 to 100. I have a ton to learn. I also read quite a bit, remember 90%+ of what I read, and will eventually learn. I want some higher end stuff to learn on. I can produce crap with it all day long. Its part of learning. In contrast my lower end 600D can produce outstanding images, or also produce crap. The variable is me and I know that. I just need a little time to digest everything I can.


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## tirediron (Aug 26, 2011)

TomWard said:


> ... The variable is me and I know that.


As it is the case for every photographer, regardless of skill-level.  If I may, forget the term 'professional'.  All a 'professional' is, is someone who gets paid for performing a service.  There is no inherent degree of skill or knowledge implicit with being a professional.  Five minutes of searching photographic websites will tell you that.  There should be, most of us would like to think there is, but at the end of the day....  if you can get a buck for taking a picture, you're a pro.  What you need to concentrate on is making yourself a positive variable rather than a negative one.  DON'T even think about buying new glass, or any other gear until you come to a situation where you just can't achieve a desired result with your current set-up.  Learning how to 'make do' will teach you more about photography than the biggest gear bag of 'L' glass ever will.


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## bennielou (Aug 26, 2011)

manaheim said:


> TomWard said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...



A spork and rubber cement.....dude, you have to warn people.  And you owe me an new Intuis!


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

bennielou said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > TomWard said:
> ...



hahahahahah... um... sorry. lol


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## TomWard (Aug 26, 2011)

http://tomward2.smugmug.com/Other/tpf/i-zG7X9tN/0/X3/Toms-Car-HDR-X3.jpgJ

Just took and reprocessed this image to see what the forum thought about a pic I put some effort and creativity into with only my front yard as a shooting location.


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## tirediron (Aug 26, 2011)

Can't really say that I'm a fan of that style of processing; it seems to rather over-power the subject matter.  I think you could definitely have done better, even if you were restricted to that location, but than taste is all subjective...


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## ErinP709 (Aug 26, 2011)

I came to this forum to learn. After reading through this entire post and many others like it i can see I have come to the wrong place. I don't care how good  you are

With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced.  Why is it different here?

In my professional life I mentor students and others entering my field and I would never speak to them the way some of you addressed the OP. I want people to learn and to enjoy the field they are entering. If I felt they were going beyond their scope I would let them know in a constructive and encouraging way. Why on earth would you want to discourage someone from entering a field that brings you satisfaction and enjoyment?

Additionally, as an amateur photographer, I feel that there is a place for a variety of talents in the market. Right now I am gaining experience through both second shooting AND solo shooting weddings for free (or almost free). Some people can't afford high end photographers for their weddings are are very happy to have someone less experienced work for a reduced rate. Personally, I can't afford the fees that the high end photographers in my area charge. I use newbies for my family photography and have always been pleased with what comes out. I am grateful that newbies exist and are out there offering their services at a rate based on their experience level.

Anyway, that is my piece. I'm out. This is not the right place for me.

Cheers!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 26, 2011)

:cheers:


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

TomWard said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > TomWard said:
> ...



Ya good.  I think we're on the same page.  I actually think, after re-reading the thread, that something in the way you write came across as snarky when it really wasn't snarky at all.  I noticed you said you're an IT guy.  I am too.  A lot of IT guys get misunderstood a lot in email and such.  Might just be that.

Anyway, I get it.   Peace!


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

ErinP709 said:


> I came to this forum to learn. After reading through this entire post and many others like it i can see I have come to the wrong place. I don't care how good you are
> 
> With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced. Why is it different here?
> 
> ...



There's a fair amount of opp to learn here, but if you expect to come to an internet forum and not see a whole bunch of people beating each other with their supposed manhood, yer a very confused individual.


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## orljustin (Aug 28, 2011)

ErinP709 said:


> With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced.  Why is it different here?



One might assume the two actually had a professional or educational relationship, and that the student did not randomly walk in off the street.  A forum is not some Photographer Mentor/Intern experience.  Your analogy is not valid to an internet forum.



> In my professional life I mentor students and others entering my field and I would never speak to them the way some of you addressed the OP. I want people to learn and to enjoy the field they are entering. If I felt they were going beyond their scope I would let them know in a constructive and encouraging way. Why on earth would you want to discourage someone from entering a field that brings you satisfaction and enjoyment?



Well, you sound like a peach, but around here, there's at least 2-3 people a week who think that because they can get pictures out of the camera they got for their birthday, that they are primed for a business where they get paid to provide a satisfactory customer experience doing something that actually takes a lot of work and time to achieve a professional level.



> Additionally, as an amateur photographer, I feel that there is a place for a variety of talents in the market. Right now I am gaining experience through both second shooting AND solo shooting weddings for free (or almost free). Some people can't afford high end photographers for their weddings are are very happy to have someone less experienced work for a reduced rate. Personally, I can't afford the fees that the high end photographers in my area charge. I use newbies for my family photography and have always been pleased with what comes out. I am grateful that newbies exist and are out there offering their services at a rate based on their experience level.



Wow, solo weddings for free.  Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience.  See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job.  So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it.  So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.


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## orljustin (Aug 28, 2011)

TomWard said:


> http://tomward2.smugmug.com/Other/tpf/i-zG7X9tN/0/X3/Toms-Car-HDR-X3.jpgJ
> 
> Just took and reprocessed this image to see what the forum thought about a pic I put some effort and creativity into with only my front yard as a shooting location.



What was the goal?  I guess it's a bit spooky, but you've smeared all the texture out of everything in the image.


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## TomWard (Aug 28, 2011)

> Wow, solo weddings for free.  Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience.  See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job.  So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it.  So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.



Yes, I started in tech for basically nothing. I learned and worked my way up. Its been 15 years now, my income is stable, and I need something new to learn. Wanting to learn as a 2nd or 3rd camera for free, the only benefit for me being experience and building my portfolio, is taking work away from paid professionals? If I ever get to the level where I am good enough to charge for an event, it would suppliment my primary source of income. That's to be discouraged? Improving my skill set and learning intellectually is a new skill is wrong? Perhaps you should read about how capitalism works.

 The photo I posted was my first HDR, ever. The texture was purposefully smeared out in Topaz Adjust/Photomatic. I thought it looked cool. Its subjective.


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## ErinP709 (Aug 28, 2011)

orljustin said:
			
		

> One might assume the two actually had a professional or educational relationship, and that the student did not randomly walk in off the street.  A forum is not some Photographer Mentor/Intern experience.  Your analogy is not valid to an internet forum.
> 
> Nope - first time they met was when the scrub nurse introduced them a few minutes before the procedure started
> 
> ...



I don't take business away from anyone. I offer services to people who otherwise could not afford a photographer. I am very careful to tell them that if they were considering hiring an experienced professional they should continue with that plan because I cannot offer the same results. If you are an experienced professional, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to think that someone like me would be taking business away from you. What kind of bride would settle for a newbie when they could afford someone with a huge portfolio and oodles of experience? 

It seems like you can't win around here. When people say they are going to start a business and charge they get flamed for being inexperienced. When people say they are going to gain experience by shooting for free they get flamed for taking business away from others.

I said I won't coming back but I couldn't help but take a peek at he thread.


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## tirediron (Aug 28, 2011)

ErinP709 said:


> I don't take business away from anyone. I offer services to people who otherwise could not afford a photographer. I am very careful to tell them that if they were considering hiring an experienced professional they should continue with that plan because I cannot offer the same results. If you are an experienced professional, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to think that someone like me would be taking business away from you. What kind of bride would settle for a newbie when they could afford someone with a huge portfolio and oodles of experience?


I couldn't agree more.  Granted a beginner/Craig's List shooter/Facebooker may occasionally get a gig that might otherwise have gone to a more experienced shooter, but guess what?  That's free-market economics.  There are other economic models...  'fellow's name escapes me...  Ohhhhhhhhhhhh right, Lenin.  He had a whole different take.  



ErinP709 said:


> It seems like you can't win around here. When people say they are going to start a business and charge they get flamed for being inexperienced. When people say they are going to gain experience by shooting for free they get flamed for taking business away from others...


Again, fair comment.  I do agree with those who discourage someone who has just gone out and bought a camera from shooting a wedding or other once in a lifetime event, BUTeveryone has to start somewhere.  You have to gain experience by doing, but there are sometimes better ways of doing.


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## Canon4life (Aug 28, 2011)

Always save your money to buy the best equipment you can the first time around. I have learned that the hard way but you are smart to ask these questions now rather than regret a purchase. As for all the heat you are taking about being inexperienced, all of these photographers who have made their way into shooting weddings and being successful at it started out somewhere too. And I would bet they've made their fair share of mistakes along the way too. We all make mistakes and you can't be afraid or having fear will hold you back and ultimately make you fail. You sound like you have an opportunity to get some experience under your belt, which is great, make the most of it...and then make the most out of you and your talent.


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## thierry (Aug 29, 2011)

Ugh.. I gotta poop


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## bennielou (Aug 29, 2011)

ErinP709 said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Erin, you seem like a nice person.  And you are valid on some of your points.  However, others are just as valid with theirs.
I guess this thread was always more of a conversation about ability rather than equipment.  That's really the cruxt of the entire thread.

There is nothing wrong with the craigslist photog who is just starting out and charging little in exchange for a port.  The deal is, while weddings and events have the potential to pay off big, this is not the place to start, whether or not you have the right equipment, if you don't have some real first hand, in-charge experience (as in watching a first as a second, schlepping bags, whatever).

Even a technically bad photographer can make a wedding look easy to the outsider if they fake confidence.  I think that is what happened between the OP and the paid photog.  He or she came in, did the job (good or bad) and made it look like easy money.  

But likewise, what we don't know could fill a room.

1. What did the paid photog charge if anything?  Was it a newbie TFP?
2.  Did he/she handle wedding day stress well?
3.  Did the bride and groom take the cheap was out?
4.  I assume the b & g are fine with the photos, and if they weren't I assume they would sue.
5.  Did the paid photog have all kinds of equipment?
6.  Did the OP take photos over the back of the paid photographers poses?
and on and on and on........

And you are right and wrong that I don't have to deal with the craigslist photographer/or any other photographer that might screw up a once in a lifetime event.  I don't deal with the front end.  You are right, that I won't lose a job to a $500 photog.  However, I have picked up the peices, (in the past-I stopped doing that) .  I have had very upset brides and grooms come to me to ask to fix photos.  I've had terrified photogs ask me to fix photos.  (Those photogs got the lesson of a lifetime that free or next to free photos don't mean they can't sue you).  And I used to try to fix them because I felt sorry for the couple or the photog, but I just don't anymore.

The internet is FULL of knowledge, and it is threads like this that SAVE brides and photogs, by being honest with them.  I no longer feel sorry for the bride who wanted to cheap out and spend $200 on a photog while she spent, $800 on her dress, and more on her cake.  I no longer feel sorry for the photographer who runs out there, with no apprenticing, no real world experience in events/weddings and screws the whole thing up because they saw a wedding or event, and it looked soooooo easy, and it looked like easy money.

But I WILL say, that if you have decent equipment, and a few weddings apprenticed under your belt (I had a year), and THEN you go out there and Craigslist............then more power to you.  You are making a portfolio at that point.  Not tears.  (For the couple AND for you).

Go if you want, but the world is full of hard truths.  It's easier to heed them here, than learn of them firsthand.  While some of the posts might seem harsh, as someone who has been in business for almost a decade, and has seen just about everything, I think the posters here are actually trying to HELP.

YMMV

PS:  Stick around.  The truth hurts, but it also heals.


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## ghache (Aug 29, 2011)

Tom, 

My advice, if you are really serious about photography and plan on shooting photos for a long time, but the BEST and top of the line **** you can afford . in the long run it will pay off. Camera body? not su much. Invest in good glass and never look back. **** these turds who say there is no point of buying a 2000$ lens if you cant use it. I dont get it because it not more difficult shooting a damn 18-55mm than a 70-200 VRII. trust me ive upgraded alot of gear since i started and i should have bought the best right away. 3 year after i upgraded camera body 3 times because of limitation.I upgraded lens because i needed something faster. From F3.5 lens to 2.8 and now i am upgrading all my primes from 1.8 to 1.4 because i feel the quality of the images it produice is deffinetly better, i tried both many times. got larger softbox, grids, better strobes.

I am not saying that all that expensive gear is making my photography better because its not all about gear but it helps alot in situation when you need it.


Ottawa / Gatineau photographer, Ottawa / Gatineau portrait photographer, - Guillaume Hache Photography


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## ErinP709 (Aug 29, 2011)

bennielou

I guess I have a bee in my bonnet when it comes to the topic of weddings. When I got married a few years back, I paid big bucks and hired the best photographer in town. He had a huge portfolio, was well known and regularly worked with celebrities. He showed up to my wedding in dirty hiking books, ripped jean shorts and a t-shirt. He did not get any of the shots I asked for and showed up 20 minutes after the rest of us had arrived at his studio following the ceremony (it was pouring rain) with a starbucks in his hand. He made me feel like he was too good for my event. His lighting and composition were perfect but he captured nothing. A number of my friends hired an up and coming &#8220;craigs list&#8221; photographer and I envy their photos. Sure, the exposure might be off in some and there was very little processing, but she was professional in dress and behaviour, took the shots she promised and her work showed the emotion of the day. Some people regret hiring the &#8220;experienced professional&#8221; too.

I am comfortable with my approach to gaining experience. Like I said, I second shoot as well as do weddings for people who otherwise would not be able to afford photography. When I solo shoot I am very careful to prepare the couple for the fact that there might be 100 great shots or just 1. Since their alternative is no photography at all, they are always happy. It&#8217;s a win win in my book.

I appreciate your advice and I especially appreciate that you were able to express it in a constructive and respectful way.


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## bennielou (Aug 29, 2011)

double post.


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## bennielou (Aug 29, 2011)

ErinP709 said:


> bennielou
> 
> I guess I have a bee in my bonnet when it comes to the topic of weddings. When I got married a few years back, I paid big bucks and hired the best photographer in town. He had a huge portfolio, was well known and regularly worked with celebrities. He showed up to my wedding in dirty hiking books, ripped jean shorts and a t-shirt. He did not get any of the shots I asked for and showed up 20 minutes after the rest of us had arrived at his studio following the ceremony (it was pouring rain) with a starbucks in his hand. He made me feel like he was too good for my event. His lighting and composition were perfect but he captured nothing. A number of my friends hired an up and coming craigs list photographer and I envy their photos. Sure, the exposure might be off in some and there was very little processing, but she was professional in dress and behaviour, took the shots she promised and her work showed the emotion of the day. Some people regret hiring the experienced professional too.
> 
> ...



No problem.  It made me happy that you thought my post was constructive and respectful.  I'm not always seen in that light.  And I'm also glad that you stuck around.

Lordy, I've heard what you have said from many brides who had the same experience as you did.  (not mine of course, mine all revere me  )  But I have heard this is the past.

Hear me out here, because I think this is something every client should know:

1.  ASK questions.  
2. Review the website.  (are they just popular, or are they shooting the style YOU want consistantly?)
3.  Expensive has never meant good as much as cheap never meant bad.  You have to do your homework.
5.  Did you look at full wedding samples?
6.  If so, how many full wedding samples did you see?

You also said that the photog did a good job with lighting and exposure and composition, but got nothing........I hate to say this gal, but you hired him based on the photos you saw, he nailed them, as far as photography went, but you still weren't happy.

I think that you weren't happy (and don't hate me for this) is because you didn't do your homework.  Every photographer has a style.  A way of doing things.  You wanted more of a photojournalism thing.

And yes, it's also easy to look at 5 photos a year later and have buyers remorse.  You can't blame this on the photographer.  You hired him/her.


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## ErinP709 (Aug 29, 2011)

I did my research - saw two full wedding samples, called references...did it all. His portfolio and samples were just the style i was after. Like I said, technically his photos were excellent, but you can take a photo of a lump of dog crap that is excellent from a technical standpoint. He didn't take the photos we agreed to.

I would honestly take the blame if I didn't do my homework but I did. Photography was very important to me.

I believe that he just wasn't in it that day. I paid full price but because I wasn't "somebody" so I don't think he really cared.

I'll get over it someday I suppose. Guess it just goes to show how important it is not to screw up someones big day. 5 years later and I am still harping on it.


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