# Photographer Shooting for Free and Taking Business Awayfrom Me!



## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you for all of your opinions.  Like I said, the girl didn't take "business" away from me. I was hired to do the job, even though someone said that they would do it for 'free'. I'm learning a lot more about my camera and lighting every day. I do use flash. That's all.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 24, 2011)

Competition is fierce at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?


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## shortpants (Jun 24, 2011)

Take pictures worth paying for?  

There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to do a free shoot for portfolio building. If that affects your business it's saying something, no?


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, thankfully, this isn't my only form of promoting myself to get business, so it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why anyone would do anything for "free"


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## shortpants (Jun 24, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> Well, thankfully, this isn't my only form of promoting myself to get business, so it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why anyone would do anything for "free"


To learn and not rip people off in the process?


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## christian.rudman (Jun 24, 2011)

It's not the only way you can make money either. And facebook for a business place?

And I'm sure at a few times through your career you had to do free shoots for your portfolio and in turn "stole business" from another photographer. Complaining about how unfair it is will not get you anywhere, you need to cater more to the people that are expecting to pay money for professional results, not from moms who would prefer to not spend a dime. 

Like Bitter Jeweler said, bottom of the barrel.


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

She was looking for a photographer. It wasn't like I was putting myself out on Facebook.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 24, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> Well, thankfully, this isn't my only form of promoting myself to get business, so it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why anyone would do anything for "free"



It was a big enough deal to share it with us.

It hasn't even actually happened yet!

Welcome to the forum!

Just a thought, that would solve the problem: Give the woman $10 to do her shoot, that way you are undercutting the free photographer! Get the customer, whatever the cost!


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

Yeah, I guess I wasn't expecting some of the answers I got. Sorry, I'm definitely naive 

I guess I'll see what happens before I make conclusions.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Jun 24, 2011)

BestBuy, WalMart and Target are producing free "photographers" every day too yanno.


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## usayit (Jun 24, 2011)

Shoot Hookers who need photos for their "portfolios".  Do it well enough and there's enough chit chat among the high class ones that you get good repeat business.  They pay well for anonymity, being a "known" safe person (reputation has to be built), someone who can be trusted (extortion), and remain professional even in that type of business (no bartering... keep it strictly business).  They will come back knowing you are not scum and treat them as people.  

The cost of business is the risk of being caught with one "known" offender by the police AND those stupid/barely legal "ALLEGEDLY" listings in the newspaper.   You will most likely beat them in court but it doesn't stop the damage already done in the newspaper.   But hey.... this keeps 99% of those photogs out of competition.


These days... you need to establish a niche market.



PS> Don't call them "Hookers" like I just did.   and no.. Its not me although it would be tempting in a different life.   Just another photog I corresponded with extensively online.  Friendly person who works a studio.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 24, 2011)

Pkae1989, sincerely, welcome to the forum. Post images up that you want help with, as there are quite a few knowlwedgable people here willing to help!
Take the information for what it is, and better yourself. Be tough though, and remember people aren't criticising you, just your images.

So, are you a natural light photographer, or do you use flash/strobes?
Do you have a website?
How long have you been doing this? Introduce yourself with a little background.


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

Thank you, 

I mostly shoot in natural light, my friend has turned me off of flash, though I do use it sometimes. I don't have a website at the moment, but I hope I can build one soon. 
I've always loved taking pictures, but I really got into it after I had my daughter, Cora, in December. My husband figured why pay professionals a lot of money when you could just do it yourself (you might disagree!). He bought me a Nikon D3000 (which I've read is the worst DSLR ever?) I love this camera though, because I don't know anything else. I started sending pictures to my family and friends and they loved them and said I should try to make a business out of it, so that's what I'm trying to do. Luckily, I have had more success than I thought I would. I like that a lot of people are clueless about photography, so they really like my photographs. I choose to be humble though, because I'm figuring if I put them on here, I would get ripped a new one! I might decide to be brave soon and do it! I definitely came on here to learn more, and I hope I will!


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## Trever1t (Jun 24, 2011)

Why come on here and cry? Does venting make you feel better? It just bugs me when people come on here to complain about some FACEBOOK BS, and it happens all too often.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 24, 2011)

Thanks for the background.


Bah! Don't be afraid to post. Again, if you have a good attitude and absorb the info you get and put it to use, you won't be "torn a new one". Like I said, your images will be critiqued, not you. It could be a wake up call, though. But if you came here to learn, you probably will. Besides, you already handled this thread amazingly well, how much worse could it get?


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm sorry, not meaning to complain. I'm just a new photographer looking for advice on how to handle different situations  I see that FB isn't too well received on here so I won't do it again.


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Thanks for the background.
> 
> 
> Bah! Don't be afraid to post. Again, if you have a good attitude and absorb the info you get and put it to use, you won't be "torn a new one". Like I said, your images will be critiqued, not you. It could be a wake up call, though. But if you came here to learn, you probably will. Besides, you already handled this thread amazingly well, how much worse could it get?




--So true! I do have one question. I tried to post something earlier, and I think they were too big?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 24, 2011)

Use the [ img ] url,ending in .jpg [ /img ].

If you use the picture icon, you have to deselect "retreive remote file" check box on the "from URL" dialogue box.

Oh, and make a new thread, so this one is bygones. :LOL:


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## pkae1989 (Jun 24, 2011)

just testing! thanks!


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## Kerbouchard (Jun 24, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> just testing! thanks!


Wow.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 24, 2011)

Ok so being one of the most disliked posters on this forum I'll add my take. You are involved in a "photo group" on facebook and someone screwed you out of talking some pictures, and you figured being new to the biz you would  come on here, vent a little, look for some support from others that have been screwed by other amateurs out of making a few bucks on the side.  There are a lot of bleeding hearts on this forum, most of the amateurs will share in your complaints of how unfair it is.  Personally I couldn't care less that you got undercut, sucks when even the amateurs are undercutting the amateurs.


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## CCericola (Jun 24, 2011)

If you re-read her post she is not in a photo group, she is in a mom group. In regards to the image, I find it a tad too green and I dislike the truck however, I do like the candid feel of the photo. Good job.


On a side note, If you are not a legit registered business with you state and paying taxes then you really should not be charging and should not be complaining that people are stealing customers from you.


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## camz (Jun 24, 2011)

Very helpful and respectful members in this forum posting and giving you input here pkae1989 - I know it's alot to take in but learn to categorize these. Weather or not be they are technicals that pertain to your photography art or business inputs that are key in the playing field of competition. 

I saw the images you posted in another thread and I honestly think you still need consistency. The reason why the photographer beat you out is because it seems like the client wasn't in the market for a "brand". That client was there for a discount, a sale, a free-bee. You don't want to cater to those clients. And you will never separate yourself unless you build on a brand(a product, a feeling, a mood, a piece of magic) that is consistent and has your signature. When they think of you and see your work that conveys something good and separates you from joe camera...they will pay for it because you have given them a perception of a worthy product. 

Keep in mind that your photography has to be very good but this branding is not limited to just photographs. The other aspects extend to:

-Customer Service
-Prints
-How you make them feel months after the job(gifts...etc etc)
-Amazing cinemagraphs 
-The way you dress

The list goes on. So first you have to get your photography down solid! Then work to learn your business by forumlating a plan to separate yourself from the rest - it could be small thing that separates you.


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> Thank you,
> 
> I mostly shoot in natural light, my friend has turned me off of flash,



You're really gonna need to turn that frame of thought around.  And HOW, may I ask, did this friend turn you *off* to flash?



pkae1989 said:


> *My husband figured why pay professionals a lot of money when you could just do it yourself (you might disagree!)*. He bought me a Nikon D3000 (which I've read is the worst DSLR ever?) I love this camera though, because I don't know anything else. I started sending pictures to my family and friends and they loved them and said I should try to make a business out of it, so that's what I'm trying to do. Luckily, I have had more success than I thought I would. I like that a lot of people are clueless about photography, so they really like my photographs. I choose to be humble though, because I'm figuring if I put them on here, I would get ripped a new one! I might decide to be brave soon and do it! I definitely came on here to learn more, and I hope I will!



Does anyone else find this particularly ironic?

You started out because you (or your husband, rather) decided it *wasn't worth paying* *professionals*... because you can supposedly do it yourself... probably just as well right too, right?  Yet your complaining that someone in some Mom group you're apart of "stole" your client because they were offering free services and your client might think it's probably not worth paying *you* for it? :er:

I don't mean to be discouraging, but you have the COMPLETELY wrong frame of mind for this.  From the GET go.  Seriously.

First of all... you don't need those kinds of clients anyway.  I've had people (bands) inquire about my services and when I quoted them a number that was higher than the "$50 gets you 2 hours of live shooting and every single image on a disk for you to use as you please for your promotion and merch sales!"... I didn't get a call back.  Then I'd check back on their Myspace, or website, or whathavethem and see the work of the person they DID go with.  They got what they paid for.  Good for them.  I'm out of money, but they still have ****ty pictures for promotion.   Maybe someday they'll learn... maybe not... whatever.  I don't want to work for the people that are going to try and swindle me out of any well deserved income for busting my ass, trying to keep my nose from being broken, or worse yet, my camera, at their shows while shooting for them, and then going home to edit for hours afterwards.  I know there are bands that will pay much much MUCH more than $50 for a session.  THOSE are the clients I'll wait for.

Second of all... going off the recommendations from family and friends that you should start a business because they think you're such an amazing photographer is ALWAYS a bad idea.  I've said it once... I'll say it again.  Family and friends are unintentional liers.  There are very few exceptions to the rule.  They tell you that your amazing, because they love you and they're biased and they don't know any better because they're used to seeing all the crap there is floating around on facebook.  What you NEED to do is go somewhere (like here) where there are people with NO emotional connection to you, who KNOW what they're talking about who can critique your photos, tell you what needs improvement so that you can work on it... get messy, make mistakes, come back again, learn, grow, learn, grow, learn, grow and THEN worry about clients.  Ones that come to you already KNOWING that good professional photograph is WORTH paying for for a reason.

Lucky for you, you've ended up here. 

It's certainly a tough crowd here.  But it's tough love. 

These guys and gals have been incredibly valuable to *my* growth as a photographer (and I'm not even 1/100th of the way *there* yet), and they can do the same for you if you learn to have tough skin and accept criticism as a way to help you grow... not a way to tear you down.

I'm not a fan of that image that you posted, and I'll tell you why:

Sure, the little girl is cute.  Even the candid expression is acceptable... but it's GREEN.  WHY is it GREEN?!  Maybe you were trying for some sort of artsy feel, but I'm telling you now that it doesn't work.  It actually almost hurts to look at... it's a bright green... the white background of the forum isn't helping though, I'm sure.  The green also makes this girl look sickly.  Not a lovely thought for a parent of any child.

Then you have that truck in the background that has no business being in an image like this.

Then there's that whole "turned me off to flash thing"... which I STILL want to know what the story is behind that one, if you haven't already answered it in the time that it's taking me to type up this word vomit... but in saying that you don't like flash, that CLEARLY shows your inexperience and lack of photographic knowledge.  There are some situations where natural light only is a good thing... but there are a MILLION situations where using flash makes your images so much more POWERFUL.  If you don't know how to use it... then of COURSE you're not going to like what it does to your images.  My guess is that this friend that turned you off to it SUCKED at using a flash... they probably hadn't the first clue of how to light something... and then you looked at those images and said "ew... I'm not using flash, like, EVER!"  Nuh uh.  Wrong attitude.

When you look at work, you shouldn't be looking at the work of those in your Mommy group who are willing to work for free... you should be venturing out into that big scary world called the internet and seeking out accomplished photographers whose art is WORLDS above those on Facebook.  THOSE are the people you should be comparing yourself to and striving to be like.  Not Kathy from down the street with a G12, 3 kids, a dog and a parrot.

Seriously... you want to do this for a business?  STUDY your craft.  Study the work of true photographers, true artists.  KNOW how your camera works.  KNOW how light works.  Study until your brain hurts, and then keeps studying some more.  THEN other photographers will take your talk of business venturing a little more serious.  

I realize this rant may have come off a bit harsh... I don't mean it to be (remember... tough love) and I really do think you should stick around here, because it's a GREAT place to learn and grow... but you definitely still have a lot of that to do... learning and growing.  I wish you luck on your path to *learning* photography and *perfecting* your craft.  Maybe I'll see you around


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## Overread (Jun 24, 2011)

*counts only 6 smilies in that whole essay and thinks that Erose is losing her touch!* 

Seriously though top rate advice in there!


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## Josh66 (Jun 24, 2011)

Ouch.  The first thing you need to do is calibrate your monitor.

The second thing you need you need to do is wait to go pro until people working for free are not your direct competition.


Whenever I see somebody complaining that all these people working for free/cheap are hurting their business - the first thing I think is that you have no business being in business.  If people that don't even know how to use their camera are getting more "jobs" than you - the only thing left for me to think is that you know even less than them.


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

Overread said:


> *counts only 6 smilies in that whole essay and thinks that Erose is losing her touch!*
> 
> Seriously though top rate advice in there!



There aren't smilies uploaded to this forum that are capable of mimicing some of my facial expressions while writing that... and I'm too damned lazy to go google searching before I've finished my tea.  :lmao:


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## Josh66 (Jun 24, 2011)

e.rose said:


> before I've finished my tea.


"Tea" is code for what - beer, white russian, margarita...?


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > before I've finished my tea.
> ...



Unfortunately it just means tea.  Nilgiri to be exact.  :lmao:  I would totally drink right now, but I have to get up at 6 to leave the house by 7 so I can be in Trenton, NJ by 9 tomorrow.   Sooooo... no booze for me.  And I'm gonna *try* to go to bed at an earlier time tonight... as long as the house doesn't blow up, because I've heard two VERY LOUD booms in the last 10 minutes... both of which were much MUCH louder than a gun shot, and didn't roll like thunder, and there's no rain or lighting... I'm pretty sure our house is just going to blow up.

The first boom was probably a house down the street... the second one was probably the house next to it.  It's only a matter of time before the boom plague gets to us.

It was nice knowing you all. :salute:


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## Josh66 (Jun 24, 2011)

e.rose said:


> It was nice knowing you all. :salute:


You really should reconsider that 'just tea' thing...


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > It was nice knowing you all. :salute:
> ...



Yeah... good call... Rum'll numb the pain.


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## Josh66 (Jun 24, 2011)

Plus it'll make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, which is always good.


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Plus it'll make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, which is always good.



True.  But unfortunately we have no Rum.  

(Play at 0:14)





I ask myself that every day, Jack.


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## Josh66 (Jun 24, 2011)

Funny you should post that...

I get **** every day at work for looking like a pirate...  

My nickname at work is "Captain Jack", lol.  I can't go anywhere without people telling me I look like Johnny Depp...

Personally, I think it's just because I have a 'pirate' looking beard/mustache...

Imagine this, but with shoulder length hair:




Self Portrait by J E, on Flickr
(That's me.)
(I need a new one - the goatee is much longer now...)


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## e.rose (Jun 24, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Funny you should post that...
> 
> I get **** every day at work for looking like a pirate...
> 
> ...



I can kinda see that... yeah.


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## vfotog (Jun 25, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> Thank you,
> 
> I mostly shoot in natural light, my friend has turned me off of flash, though I do use it sometimes. I don't have a website at the moment, but I hope I can build one soon.
> I've always loved taking pictures, but I really got into it after I had my daughter, Cora, in December. My husband figured why pay professionals a lot of money when you could just do it yourself (you might disagree!). He bought me a Nikon D3000 (which I've read is the worst DSLR ever?) I love this camera though, because I don't know anything else. I started sending pictures to my family and friends and they loved them and said I should try to make a business out of it, so that's what I'm trying to do. Luckily, I have had more success than I thought I would. I like that a lot of people are clueless about photography, so they really like my photographs. I choose to be humble though, because I'm figuring if I put them on here, I would get ripped a new one! I might decide to be brave soon and do it! I definitely came on here to learn more, and I hope I will!



you've only been really shooting since DECEMBER and you're trying to help support your family on this _already_? Wouldn't hurt to take some time to develop some photography and business skills first.


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## Derrel (Jun 25, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> I'm in a mom group on Facebook right now, and there are about 5 photographers on there, so competition can be pretty fierce. A lady was looking to get her pictures done on a budget. She agreed that I was budget friendly and decided to hire me for her family shoot. Well a long comes another photographer and says that she will do her shoot for absolutely no cost because she is trying to build her portfolio! The client hasn't cancelled on me yet, and I'm hoping that she will appreciate that I take better photographs and will pay to have them done. It's hard to compete against free though, but I'm hoping she realizes that  she will get what she pays for.
> Anyway, I talked to my photographer friend about this, and she says that I should send a polite message to the other photographer asking her to please not take away business from myself, because it is the only way that I help support my family. I didn't think that was a good idea, I mean she does have the right to take free pictures if she wants.
> I'm not really sure what to do. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you!



It **is** difficult to compete against free!!! SO, what you need to do is to lower your prices. Go to less-than-free. You pay CLIENTS to take THEIR photos!!

I can guarantee you, and I mean this sincerely, that you will have more business than you do now, if you go to a less-than-free price! I'm not saying you will make any money...just that you will have more shoots to do. I wish you the best of luck in the Facebook Jungle, and I hope that after your tour of duty is over, that you return without too many battle scars or too much in the way of psychological adjustment difficulties, as you re-adjust to life in the real world, that off-line, and outside of Facebook.

Keep your powder dry, and your lenscaps secured! 
Best of luck to ya!, and "Give the farm away!"


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 25, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Funny you should post that...I get **** every day at work for looking like a pirate...  My nickname at work is "Captain Jack", lol.  I can't go anywhere without people telling me I look like Johnny Depp...Personally, I think it's just because I have a 'pirate' looking beard/mustache...Imagine this, but with shoulder length hair:
> 
> Self Portrait by J E, on Flickr(That's me.)(I need a new one - the goatee is much longer now...)


You need more earrings!


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## Assassin (Jun 25, 2011)

You need to remind her that she will have absolutely no come back if she doesn't pay... basically she gets what she pays for... I think most people are wise, and realise that if she gets it for free, and it's an important event, there isn't ever a second chance....


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## Robin Usagani (Jun 25, 2011)

Assassin said:


> You need to remind her that she will have absolutely no come back if she doesn't pay... *basically she gets what she pays for*... I think most people are wise, and realise that if she gets it for free, and it's an important event, there isn't ever a second chance....



That's not always true.  There are plenty of people who are in the portfolio building mode who are really good.  In fact, some are better than some people who claim have been in the "business" for years.  There are so many really bad photographers out there.

OP, just keep shooting.  At some point more people are more willing to pay you rather than doing it for cheaper or free.  Just remember, budget clients will only bring you more budget clients in the future.  But if you are still learning, then that's the only client you will get, only budget clients.


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## jake337 (Jun 25, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Funny you should post that...I get **** every day at work for looking like a pirate... My nickname at work is "Captain Jack", lol. I can't go anywhere without people telling me I look like Johnny Depp...Personally, I think it's just because I have a 'pirate' looking beard/mustache...Imagine this, but with shoulder length hair:
> ...



You need one of these!









On a serious note, you freind got you "off" of, one of the most versatile parts of photography, flash....


Aslo, did the little girl make it?  She is about to get nailed by a truck.


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## flea77 (Jun 25, 2011)

I have to agree with most of the comments above, then add a few :er:

First off, believe it or not you want to be in a photography enviroment where people tell you what you did wrong. If everyone tells you "good job!" and "great picture" then you are learning nothing. Even the greatest photographers who have ever lived constantly strived to get better, so again, you want people who show you the bad.

Next, the reason we don't really like Facebook as far as advertising goes is it is free social networking. Why is that bad? Because every Tom, Dick, and Jenny who has a camera is on there doing the exact same thing. They are all "professionals" because they bought a big camera, LOL!

Your picture of the little girl has already been ripped, but I too will add when I first looked at it I was wondering what illness the little girl had until I realized the whole image is green. Check the white balance in your camera, pay more attention to the background, use a more open aperture to blur the background more and draw more attention to the girl.

Now we come to you charging for shoots. As someone else said, do you have a tax permit? If not, you are breaking the law. Do you have a DBA? Do you have insurance? Do you have contracts that every client signs? If not, you are not actually making money for your family, you are opening up your entire family to a lawsuit. How will you explain to your children that they have no college fund because of the judgment against you from when you made some mother upset and she sued you? Don't think that will happen? Then pick up a news paper and see the flurry of lawsuits filed every day for something stupid (hot coffee from McDs anyone?).

Next you need to think about where you are in relation to "professional" photographers, or any professional for that matter. Would you hire a lawyer who went to Barnes and Nobel and bought some books on the law and had been learning from them for eight months? How about a mechanic that went to Wal-Mart and bought a set of Stanley wrenchs eight months ago and read up on cars at the public library? Would you like a teacher for your children who has no degree, no education and no certificate but has been practicing for eight months? Seriously, you have an absolute bottom of the line DSLR, no education, and only eight months experience, do you really feel as though that is enough to charge for your services? Really?

Now contrary to what you are thinking I am not telling you this to just dump on you. I am telling you this so that you can take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and decide if this is what you want to do. If it really is, then you found the right place! We will help you learn photography and help you with the business side of things too. You have to do your part and realize you are one step above the masses with their point and shoot cameras, but you have hundreds of steps to go. We will do our part and not only tell you what you did wrong, but help you correct it, and then tell you what you did right.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

Allan


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## orljustin (Jun 25, 2011)

pkae1989 said:


> I mostly shoot in natural light, my friend has turned me off of flash, though I do use it sometimes. I don't have a website at the moment, but I hope I can build one soon. I've always loved taking pictures, but I really got into it after I had my daughter, Cora, in December. My husband figured why pay professionals a lot of money when you could just do it yourself (you might disagree!). He bought me a Nikon D3000 (which I've read is the worst DSLR ever?) I love this camera though, because I don't know anything else. I started sending pictures to my family and friends and they loved them and said I should try to make a business out of it, so that's what I'm trying to do. Luckily, I have had more success than I thought I would. I like that a lot of people are clueless about photography, so they really like my photographs.



Truly a MWAC.

Rule 1: Don't listen to family and friends.  They always know less about these things than you do.
Rule 2: People who say they are "natural light" shooters actually mean they don't know anything about lighting, aside from putting someone outside somewhere.
Rule 3: Try to avoid the irony in future posts.


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## jake337 (Jun 25, 2011)

orljustin said:


> pkae1989 said:
> 
> 
> > I mostly shoot in natural light, my friend has turned me off of flash, though I do use it sometimes. I don't have a website at the moment, but I hope I can build one soon. I've always loved taking pictures, but I really got into it after I had my daughter, Cora, in December. My husband figured why pay professionals a lot of money when you could just do it yourself (you might disagree!). He bought me a Nikon D3000 (which I've read is the worst DSLR ever?) I love this camera though, because I don't know anything else. I started sending pictures to my family and friends and they loved them and said I should try to make a business out of it, so that's what I'm trying to do. Luckily, I have had more success than I thought I would. I like that a lot of people are clueless about photography, so they really like my photographs.
> ...




There are some, very talented, natural light shooters who know how to manipulate, control and use natural light quite well.


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## Derrel (Jun 25, 2011)

jake337 said:
			
		

> There are some, very talented, natural light shooters who know how to manipulate, control and use natural light quite well.



Yes, yes there are. However, I doubt that the eight month veteran whose bid'ness is under discussion has the required scrims, diffusers, reflectors, subtractive fill cards, grip equipment, and ancillary accessories to be considered as being a manipulator and controller of natural light.


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## Kerbouchard (Jun 25, 2011)

jake337 said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > pkae1989 said:
> ...



Yep, and that would have some relevance if the OP was one of those.  The picture posted as an example in this thread is dreadful.  The OP doesn't have a business.  She is a mom with a camera looking to pick up some extra cash on the side without the government knowing about it.  If a 'pro photographer' can't bother herself to get a decent background for her subjects or the white balance right and not make her subjects look like martians, she has absolutely no right to complain about people who are stealing her 'business'.  And without a tax ID and an actual business, she literally has no right to be charging people for her services in the first place.

And I don't even blame it on the people who think they can buy a new camera and become a pro.  I blame it on the marketing departments who make people think that they can be pro's if they just buy a better camera.  Well, they lied to you.  Turns out, you actually have to learn how the camera works first.


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## jake337 (Jun 25, 2011)

Derrel said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was just saying.... He made a pretty blunt statement about natural light photographers.  I wouldn't consider the OP to be one.  Maybe that will be her path in photography.  Who really knows....


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## orljustin (Jun 25, 2011)

Derrel said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right.  Waiting for the sun to come out or go away does not make one a "natural light" expert.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 25, 2011)




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## e.rose (Jun 25, 2011)

The OP isn't ever coming back, is she?    I think we all scared her away... which is unfortunately.  Oh well.  ::shrugs::


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 25, 2011)

Well, you could go over here: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/professional-gallery/248409-family-shoot-first-photo-post.html and give her some tips.

We showed her the worst of the forum, now we can show her how useful it is. Right?


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 25, 2011)

The bottom line on this thread is that an amateur using an amateur camera taking bad amateur photos is complaining that another amateur may or may not be taking her amateur business away from her by acting like an amateur.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 25, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> The bottom line on this thread is that an amateur using an amateur camera taking bad amateur photos is complaining that another amateur may or may not be taking her amateur business away from her by acting like an amateur.



Yeah, I think we got that.

Let me rephrase an earlier post of mine that you may have missed.



>


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## Josh66 (Jun 25, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> You need more earrings!


I've actually been thinking about that.  If I can find another set identical to the ones I have now, I'll probably get another one on each ear.  (Right behind the ones I have now.)


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## Overread (Jun 25, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > You need more earrings!
> ...



Forget earrings - what you need is a hat!


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## gsgary (Jun 26, 2011)

I did a lighting master class with a top UK photographer (Brian Griffin) and he told us he shot for free sometimes, he shot the London Olympics portraits for free briangriffin.co.uk because he didn't want anyone else to shoot it


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## Rekd (Jun 26, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Competition is fierce at the bottom of the barrel, isn't it?



I LOLed. :lmao:


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## ZenNonna (Jul 5, 2011)

I shoot for free but the person having the event has no idea I am a photographer. I simply ask if I can bring my camera and take photos. Then I gift them with the photos they are thrilled and I have no expections to meet.  Good thing too because one event I went to had nightclub lighting and my photos were terrible.  I get get a few and sent them to the honoree. The only thing that spoiled it was my husband went around at event bragging about how great my photos are. He and I had a "meeting" after the event so he will never do that again.  But imagine if that was an event where I was actually engaged as THE photographer.  I have zero intention of starting a photography business.  Even if I once had that idea that particular event would have out me off.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 5, 2011)

ZenNonna said:


> I shoot for free but the person having the event has no idea I am a photographer. I simply ask if I can bring my camera and take photos. Then I gift them with the photos they are thrilled and I have no expections to meet. Good thing too because one event I went to had nightclub lighting and my photos were terrible. I get get a few and sent them to the honoree. The only thing that spoiled it was my husband went around at event bragging about how great my photos are. He and I had a "meeting" after the event so he will never do that again. But imagine if that was an event where I was actually engaged as THE photographer. I have zero intention of starting a photography business. Even if I once had that idea that particular event would have out me off.



Yes that would have been terrible, being hired to take photos and then realizing that your mouth didn't match your skills.  Whatever would you have done, not accepted the payment, cried yourself to sleep, or just did another event for free. Amateur


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 5, 2011)

Oh ya I was suppose to be nice.  According to many on this forum you haven't posted enough times for me to say anything bad.  I should have just said good for you, who's a special amateur then, shooting for free, giving photos away for free, and the person has no idea that you're a photographer, you own a camera, that's all.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 5, 2011)

Dude. You really should unsubscribe to this thread.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 5, 2011)

Why? It's such a happy place.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 5, 2011)

You are a pony. You need more than one trick.


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## Derrel (Jul 5, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> You are a pony. You need more than one trick.


 

and one of these...   Sex_Toys_DJ206602.jpg


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## usayit (Jul 5, 2011)

lol   please tell me..... its not from personal experience.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 5, 2011)

Derrel, I would have "liked" your post, but I don't want anything misconstrued.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 5, 2011)

usayit said:


> lol   please tell me..... its not from personal experience.



Probably is. A Percheron needs a nice tail.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 5, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > You are a pony. You need more than one trick.
> ...



I can only assume that you carry one of these around in your camera bag next to your handgun, never know when you might need to disguise yourself as a horses ass.


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## pkae1989 (Aug 4, 2011)

Ay! Didn't realize I had caused such a ruckus! Sorry  well contrary to popular belief I amGetting better and look back on the photos and dread them, honestly. Thanks for all of your enlightening opinions. I did end up getting the job, and I do take this more seriously then you might think. I'm learning everyday.


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## Sw1tchFX (Aug 4, 2011)

usayit said:


> Shoot Hookers who need photos for their "portfolios".  Do it well enough and there's enough chit chat among the high class ones that you get good repeat business.  They pay well for anonymity, being a "known" safe person (reputation has to be built), someone who can be trusted (extortion), and remain professional even in that type of business (no bartering... keep it strictly business).  They will come back knowing you are not scum and treat them as people.
> 
> The cost of business is the risk of being caught with one "known" offender by the police AND those stupid/barely legal "ALLEGEDLY" listings in the newspaper.   You will most likely beat them in court but it doesn't stop the damage already done in the newspaper.   But hey.... this keeps 99% of those photogs out of competition.
> 
> ...



Believe it or not, I have a friend that did this to get started out. It was a way for him to get good looking models to test lighting on. He makes 6 figures now as a photographer.


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## molested_cow (Aug 4, 2011)

I showed up at my friend's baby shower party, took some pics for them, made prints and put them in frames for them, all for free. They didn't hire any other photographer. Am I stealing business from any one?

I agree that working for free is bull****, especially if the employer is a legit business (eg. A company hiring interns to do work for free in the name of "learning"). However if the reward is free use of the work for self-promotion, I think I can accept that.


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## pkae1989 (Aug 4, 2011)

I've done free things, baby showers and what not. I wasn't saying that nothing should be done for free. I'm just saying when someone is about to hire you for a job and someone else says free, it bugs you a little. No matters, I was hired anyway.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks for the follow up!


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## pkae1989 (Aug 4, 2011)

Lol no problem! I was just shocked when I saw 67 comments!


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