# New, and a question, right to the point, DIGITAL to pratice FILM?



## wdh1974 (Dec 30, 2013)

I have a nikon p7700 point and shoot, but its F stops only go to F2-F8.

Now, i want film, for a few reasons, it looks good and i cant afford full frame, so im ebay shopping for a nikon F series film camera(canon A1 looks nice CHEAP lens, but its more prone to fail), but until i get one, i was thinking of jsut locking the ISO at 400 and only use shutter and aperture to take the shot. Will this be accurate enough so when i do get film i wont totally wreck things? I was hoping this would give me a leg up and get me in the OK zone. And buy a light meter.

The great thing is all this can be had sooo cheap as opposed to my full frame digital options. And i dont spray and pray, even with a basic P&S digital, i try to think about it first.


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## wyogirl (Dec 30, 2013)

yes in theory.  I "practice" a lot of my film shots on digital first.  However, I usually bracket with film as well because there can be subtle differences.


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## limr (Dec 30, 2013)

It's a start, but remember that you'll have more options for f-stops on the film camera and probably fewer shutter speed options. So you'll probably get a feel for ballpark exposure for a middle-range light situations, but not for lower or brighter situations. Once you are shooting on film, there are other elements you'll have to figure in to fine-tune the exposure. You can look for a camera with a built-in light meter to start with, and stick to films like TriX (black and white) that are fairly tolerant films (i.e. you can still get good images if the frame is under or over exposed in a certain range. Some films have a very small range. 'Tolerant' films have a wider range.)

I would also do a lot of reading about exposures, maybe learn the Sunny 16 rule or Zone system for exposure while you're 'practicing' with your digital and looking for a film camera.

You also might want to check keh.com Buy & Sell New & Used Cameras ? Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Leica & More - KEH.com for a used camera. Their prices are quite good and they are very reliable. Even their "Bargain" rated equipment is usually much better than it's rated. There will be much less variability in the quality of what you get as compared to ebay.

And of course I have to mention the good ole Pentax K1000 as a starter camera. (Yes, I have one and am a bit biased.  ) It's been used as a student camera for decades. Tank-like construction, reliable, good lenses, cheap, easy to use. They do have built-in light meters, too.


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## peter27 (Dec 30, 2013)

Be aware that whilst practising with a digital camera you will be getting used to exposing for digital. Sounds a bit DUH, I know, but depending on whether you'll be shooting with negative or positive film later, colour or B&W there will be quite a bit of difference of how you go about this. Working with digital is, I find, similar to exposing for colour positive film.


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## CCericola (Dec 30, 2013)

In digital you expose for he highlights. In film you expose for the shadows. If you blow out highlights in digital they are lost, no data. If you blow out highlights in film you can get some back in the darkroom. With film (negative film, not slide film) if your shadows are pitch black, that part of the image will only turn muddy if you try to lighten in the darkroom but with digital, you can bring out some of the detail. 

So yes, its basically the same, just a few differences in exposure technique.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't see how it could hurt to give it a try, if nothing else it might get you used to adjusting shutter speed and aperture with a set ISO. My starting point and where I usually reset a camera when I'm done using it is f8 and 1/125; then I adjust from there. I usually use 400 speed film indoors and 100/200 outdoors and start there with my digital camera settings too.

I find that either way using my meter is key and getting a proper exposure can make a difference. If I frame and compose a shot the way I want it, and meter to get a proper exposure, and make sure I'm in focus, that can give me a good negative or a good digital image. 

That can help with B&W to do be able to do a darkroom print without much adjusting, and usually with a digital image it gives me a photo that I can print without any or very little further adjustments (brightness or contrast and that's about it most of the time). If my exposure is off, forget it! then it's a lot more adjusting. 

I've done well buying from KEH too. On ebay you're going by the seller's description which can be subjective, and if it's a vintage camera that was in uncle somebody's attic for years, you can't count on them knowing much about it or that you'll be getting a good usable camera. KEH does have an outlet on ebay, and Pittsburgh Camera Exchange lists on ebay, so does Samy's Camera - sometimes I've found something that way although the camera collectors find those listings too!


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## cgw (Dec 30, 2013)

With respect, I'd forget something as ancient as a Nikon F. In fact, I'll play contrarian and advise skipping mechanical holy relics like K1000s and SRT 101s altogether and going instead for late model Nikon AF bodies like the 8008s/801s or N90s/F90x or even an F100. Why? They're decades newer and work well with manual focus lenses. Big bright viewfinders and deadly accurate spot/center-weighted metering. Above all, they're dirt cheap and widely available. Film camera repair options can be pricey and tough to find now, so buying the newest film gear you can afford that suits your needs makes some sense.


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## wdh1974 (Dec 30, 2013)

So much info thanks guys, ive been wathcing alot of youtube and doing some reading, i intend to shoot black and white at the start and after a a few rolls develop my own if my pics are coming out "ok" KEH seems great so ill order through them. 

As a poor person, im drawn to 35mm for various reasons, i dont spray and pray so film rolls arent an issue, im not the whole selfie spamming type. 35mm is full frame for like a few hundread $$$ less if i did go k1000 or canon A1.

Great advice and ill keep researching cameras, the newer ones included, because they are so cheap.


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## wdh1974 (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh i just realized, KEH is about 1 hour from my house so ill just drive down and go hands on if they have a physical store.


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## limr (Dec 30, 2013)

Older cameras may have mechanical issues, newer cameras might trade those in for electronic problems. You could find a 60-year-old camera in perfect condition and a 15-year-old camera that's been beaten within an inch of its life, has already been repaired several times, and will work only sometimes. Or vice versa. Whatever it is, however old it is, it's better to get it from a reputable dealer while you're still new to the film game and it's hard to judge the condition for yourself. Every single person is going to give you a different answer about their recommended camera, so the most important thing is for you to get what you want and what suits your needs and desires. If KEH has a brick and mortar store where you can lay hands on the cameras and talk to the salesman, I think that would be an ideal first buying situation.

Good luck! Let us know what you got. And of course we want to see pictures when ya have 'em!


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 30, 2013)

I saw a video I think that was done by KEH of their shop, yes they are brick and mortar, but I don't know if they have a retail store or just storage, repairs, etc. If I went in they might never get me out of the place. Have fun if you go, I'd maybe call first and see if/when they're open especially this week.

I'm not exactly unbiased since I use mechanical cameras but those are repairable and I've tinkered some myself; if the electronics go, it might not be worth the repair and you have yourself a big paperweight. My oldest camera is 100 years old and still works they just don't make that film size anymore (but I've seen it used for tintypes which maybe I'll get around to trying someday).

Since you have a P&S you're starting from scratch which could be nice since you don't need to find something to go with a particular lens, but I guess it could be more challenging since you'd have a lot of choices. If you're thinking Nikon F you could look at somewhat later models than the basic F which I don't think has a meter (but I've heard the Photomics can have the meters go out on them). A Pentax K would be a good choice too, those have always been popular.


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 31, 2013)

I agree with the guys above-I've had new cameras that break (my Olympus DSLR was dead when I got it) and I've had old cameras that work perfectly from the moment I've picked them up (Rollei 35). Newer doesn't always mean better, but be informed about what you're buying. I know nothing about the F, so I'm not going to give advice about that, but the old Olympus OM series and Pentax K are built like tanks. All mechanical (besides metering), but they never die unless you're really trying to kill them. Which you shouldn't. I happen to like old mechanical cameras like my Hasselblad 1600f or Minolta SRT-101 over things like my former Minolta Maxxum 7000 or Canon A-1. Just personal preference, really.


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## gsgary (Dec 31, 2013)

Personally i don't think it is a good idea film is not the same as digital, on a dull day with film you can underexpose the film and then in the darkroom overdevelope to give more contrast and on a very contrasty shot you can overexpose the film and underdevelope to reduce contrast


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## terri (Dec 31, 2013)

wdh1974 said:


> Oh i just realized, KEH is about 1 hour from my house so ill just drive down and go hands on if they have a physical store.



Definitely call.  They moved a couple years ago to their current location and were about 4 miles from my house.   I was all set to quit my job and force them to hire me when we had to move out of state.      But I've been in there, and it's basically a room with a big counter where you drop off/pick up your equipment.   At best, you could view their sale items online and pick a couple you are interested in - THEN call and explain you'd like to see them.   I have no clue if anyone would pull them and let you look at them or not, but it's worth a try.   They have easy returns, and legendary quality - if they say a camera is "clean" it's probably like new!      So buying without looking is pretty safe with them.    Still worth a phone call, of course.   Great team there.


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## Mike_E (Dec 31, 2013)

Look at the N90s or the F100.  The N90s has a spot meter as does the F100.  The F100 will make use of VR and AF-S and G if you have such a lens but the N90s won't.  Google is your friend here.

The reason you want a spot meter is because to practice metering for film the easiest way is (imo) to isolate the darkest spot in the frame with the spot meter that you want detail in and then make your settings two stops brighter.  ie at ISO 100  and a shutter speed of X your spot meter says that you need f2.8; so you set your aperture to f5.6 and fire away.

As you gain practice with your film of choice you can refine this of course but it's a good place to start.


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## compur (Jan 1, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> I have a nikon p7700 point and shoot, but its F stops only go to F2-F8.
> 
> Now, i want film, for a few reasons, it looks good and i cant afford full frame, so im ebay shopping for a nikon F series film camera(canon A1 looks nice CHEAP lens, but its more prone to fail), but until i get one, i was thinking of jsut locking the ISO at 400 and only use shutter and aperture to take the shot. Will this be accurate enough so when i do get film i wont totally wreck things? I was hoping this would give me a leg up and get me in the OK zone. And buy a light meter.
> 
> The great thing is all this can be had sooo cheap as opposed to my full frame digital options. And i dont spray and pray, even with a basic P&S digital, i try to think about it first.



Yes, but the metering systems in digital cameras are generally more complex and "smarter" than the meters in most film cameras made before the mid 1980s. The more modern segmented meter systems automatically compensate for lighting issues that, with film cameras, must be compensated for by the photographer. As a result you may get results like this  when you try to shoot the same scenes with older film cameras that seemed to come out fine with a digital camera.


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## Rick58 (Jan 1, 2014)

Every film camera I own, except my Bronica's, are mechanical and if I went back to film tomorrow I would have zero desire to move on to electronics. Maybe it's an age thing but that's my 2 cents.


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## cgw (Jan 1, 2014)

compur said:


> wdh1974 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a nikon p7700 point and shoot, but its F stops only go to F2-F8.
> ...



Most mid-to-highend digital P&S cameras have a center-weighted metering option that allows you to relive the blunders of a 60/40 metering pattern. With many, it's less a matter of matrix metering saving a shot as it is in-camera processing, like Nikon's Active D-lighting option, coping with exposure mishaps.


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## timor (Jan 1, 2014)

Rick58 said:


> Every film camera I own, except my Bronica's, are mechanical and if I went back to film tomorrow I would have zero desire to move on to electronics. Maybe it's an age thing but that's my 2 cents.


Which Bronicas you have you consider fully electronic ?


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## wdh1974 (Jan 1, 2014)

So much info thanks guys, ive been researching and i cant get the olympus om1n to get outa my head lol, it's a great looking camera, im gonna keep looking but i just might settle on this camera.


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## wdh1974 (Jan 1, 2014)

So far the olympus om 1n keeps going through my brain, it seems ill be getting one of those lol, part of my reasons for this besides its an amazing looking camera, i want full manual no batteries needed, even if the meter dies i can get a light meter. I just wanna go full mechanical, i know im giving up some great features heh.


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## CCericola (Jan 1, 2014)

Go for it. I love my Mamiya RB67. All mechanical and no internal meter is fine with me. I have a handheld meter.


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## cgw (Jan 1, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> So far the olympus om 1n keeps going through my brain, it seems ill be getting one of those lol, part of my reasons for this besides its an amazing looking camera, i want full manual no batteries needed, even if the meter dies i can get a light meter. I just wanna go full mechanical, i know im giving up some great features heh.



Just make sure you get a slightly newer(i.e., Cretaceous rather than Jurassic)OM2 that doesn't rely on mercury batteries(e.g., the PX625s the OM1 swallowed). Handheld meters are great but the convenience of an in-camera meter, once mastered, is tough to beat in a 35mm camera.


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## gsgary (Jan 1, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> So far the olympus om 1n keeps going through my brain, it seems ill be getting one of those lol, part of my reasons for this besides its an amazing looking camera, i want full manual no batteries needed, even if the meter dies i can get a light meter. I just wanna go full mechanical, i know im giving up some great features heh.



Features like what ? all you need is a shutter button aperture adjustment and shutter speed adjustment


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## Rick58 (Jan 1, 2014)

timor said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > Every film camera I own, except my Bronica's, are mechanical and if I went back to film tomorrow I would have zero desire to move on to electronics. Maybe it's an age thing but that's my 2 cents.
> ...



I have the "C" and "S". Not Fully electronic. Both are electronic shutters. It's been a long time but I believe they fire at something like 1/90 sec without battery?  I could be wrong about the mechanical speed. It's been many years.


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## webestang64 (Jan 1, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> I have a nikon p7700 point and shoot, but its F stops only go to F2-F8.
> 
> Now, i want film, for a few reasons, it looks good and i cant afford full frame, so im ebay shopping for a nikon F series film camera(canon A1 looks nice CHEAP lens, but its more prone to fail), but until i get one, i was thinking of jsut locking the ISO at 400 and only use shutter and aperture to take the shot. Will this be accurate enough so when i do get film i wont totally wreck things? I was hoping this would give me a leg up and get me in the OK zone. And buy a light meter.
> 
> The great thing is all this can be had sooo cheap as opposed to my full frame digital options. And i dont spray and pray, even with a basic P&S digital, i try to think about it first.



Do not use digital for anything but digital. 
I suggest, just go buy a film camera and enjoy. Some great tips in this thread. You can find a lot of used photography books on using cameras and about film.  
I'll just list a few 35mm cameras I have used over the years and shot 1000's of rolls of film through and all have worked perfectly. 

Most were used in the studio, shooting product and to make slide-dupes, copy negatives.
Pentax K1000
Pentax MX
Pentak KX
Nikon F2
Nikon F3
Canon A-1
Canon A2-E
Olympus OM-2


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## wdh1974 (Jan 1, 2014)

I pulled the trigger at KEH, got a olympus om 1 ex condition and a lens rated at EX condition. now im gonna take notes and start the research on the basics of 35mm film


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## Rick58 (Jan 1, 2014)

Nice. The OM-1 was (is) a really nice camera. If I remember correctly, I think the OM-1 was the last fully mechanical model put out by Olympus.


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## minicoop1985 (Jan 1, 2014)

Good buy. I'm a bit biased, since I have my dad's old OM-1n, but they're great cameras. Congratulations!

BTW, there's TONS of lenses on eBay for the OM mount. You'll be able to find whatever you need.


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## compur (Jan 1, 2014)

cgw said:


> Most mid-to-highend digital P&S cameras have a center-weighted metering option that allows you to relive the blunders of a 60/40 metering pattern. With many, it's less a matter of matrix metering saving a shot as it is in-camera processing, like Nikon's Active D-lighting option, coping with exposure mishaps.



A niggle.

Most digi-point & shooters wouldn't know a metering pattern from a dog biscuit so this nitpick may be theoretically interesting but of little consequence in the real world. And, it certainly changes nothing of my point that there are differences in exposure measurement of digital P&S cameras vs. older film cameras.


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## cgw (Jan 2, 2014)

compur said:


> cgw said:
> 
> 
> > Most mid-to-highend digital P&S cameras have a center-weighted metering option that allows you to relive the blunders of a 60/40 metering pattern. With many, it's less a matter of matrix metering saving a shot as it is in-camera processing, like Nikon's Active D-lighting option, coping with exposure mishaps.
> ...



Whatever.


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## timor (Jan 2, 2014)

cgw said:


> compur said:
> 
> 
> > cgw said:
> ...


I still own a Samsung zoom 105 P&S film camera, metering is excellent. And for OP IMO digital P&s as a training tool is good only for study of composition and scouting. Otherwise there is little resemblance with film shooting, especially, if you develop your own b&w film, what you should absolutely do.


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## amolitor (Jan 2, 2014)

Man, this is one weird thread.

In any field of endeavor, you can use one thing to practice another thing _to the extent that the things overlap_. There's always the concern that the thing you're practicing with will teach you bad habits, and there's always the question of how much overlap there really is.

There's a great deal to photography that overlaps between a digital p&s and 35mm film. A very great deal indeed. Virtually everything that's important.

What does _not_ overlap is a mass of technical details.

Do you want to use a digital p&s to practice developing film? Well, obvious that's silly and won't work. Do you want to use a digital p&s to practice Zone System metering? That's not going to work either. Do you want to practice seeing what things look like when they are photographed? That will work just fine.

Of these three things, which is more important to you?


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## wdh1974 (Jan 2, 2014)

Im enjoying the thread lol, and im excited to get my camera. my next buy will be a tripod and a cable release.


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## gsgary (Jan 2, 2014)

What about film

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## timor (Jan 2, 2014)

gsgary said:


> What about film


 Hm... very important. No film, no pictures. Film means shooting real thing. Everything with film is real; material, equipment (elements of darkroom) and skill. There is no computerized simulation of any of this.  You have to have it. Tripod and release cable are not that essential.


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## amolitor (Jan 2, 2014)

timor said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > What about film
> ...



WAT


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## timor (Jan 2, 2014)

amolitor said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


?


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## FrankRoberts (Jan 2, 2014)

Just bought an "excellent" condition F3 from KEH for, I believe, $250 or $300.  In keeping with their conservative ratings, it looks new.  Great place to buy and the Nikon F-series are legendary in their ruggedness.  As for your plan, treat digital like slide (positive) film as mentioned above and the metering will be pretty similar.

Oops, just realized you already got an OM-1.  Excellent camera.  Enjoy!


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## wdh1974 (Jan 2, 2014)

I 100% want a tripod and cable release, and a cheapo macro lens, thats much fun to be hand with those, long exposures, 50 ISO macro shots so forth.


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## timor (Jan 2, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> I 100% want a tripod and cable release, and a cheapo macro lens, thats much fun to be hand with those, long exposures, 50 ISO macro shots so forth.


So, are you going to shoot colour slide ?


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## dubiousone (Jan 2, 2014)

I use film because I like it! Film 'looks' different from digital because it is. Digital is easier in some respects because the cameras of this century have lots of whiz-bang circuitry that does the exposure for you. Want to have fun with your digital? Put it on full manual, get a hand held light meter like an old Weston or perhaps Gossen from the 70's-80's and go shoot. You will be surprised how quickly you can pick up the nuances of exposure and before long, you will be able to look at a scene, read the highlights from shadowy areas to backlight and make a guess that's pretty much spot on.

If my D50 had a match needle like my K1000 or Mamiya's (DTL 1000, 500TL etc) it would be perfect. Somehow the little slidy green dots just don't cut it but with a bit of practice one can fool himself into believing its a needle...LOL

I use my film cameras because I like them and it gives me pleasure (FUN) to take an almost elderly camera from the 50's, 60's or 70's and take some pretty nice shots. The 80's cameras like the A-1, AE-1, AE-1 Program or any number of Pentax, Nikon, Olympus-Minolta-autowhatever also have manual exposure. Some are better than others meter-wise but all do a pretty good job of making exposure life easier.

Go have fun and shoot!


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## wdh1974 (Jan 2, 2014)

Ive been researching, in the end i want to develop my own, its just so cheap to get the gear, epson v600 and even c-41 seems simple and cheap to get started in. Ive built computers and programmed for 15 years, so i think i can handle the complexity of developing my own. I love B&W sure, but man, i love punchy colors too, and being able to scan at 6400dpi if i want is awesome. My goal is to have some wall hangers, my nikon p7700 is great for family snap shots.

My wife and i are going to the philippines this december to meet her family and meet me for the first time, i hope to be skilled enough by then to get some nice shots worthy of wall hangers, her dad is 80 and a fisherman, so im already thinking of some nice pics of him with his net sitting beside his boat heh.


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## timor (Jan 2, 2014)

wdh1974 said:


> in the end i want to develop my own


 That's the spirit.
With b&w stick for starters with one film and developer only, with what is the easiest for you to get (price, supply) and it will be wise to use few first rolls on something less important to you, or something you can re-shoot until you can establish your technique. Philippines seems like land of photo ops, good luck to you.


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## wdh1974 (Jan 2, 2014)

I plan on shooting that $2 stuff for a while until i feel i can trust myself to get things close, then ill get the good stuff.


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## Derrel (Jan 3, 2014)

Olympus made some very nice, compact lenses for the OM-1 and OM-2 system cameras. It was sad to see, but ther autofocus era saw Olympus just sort of get utterly,totally,absolutely LOST, with some pure rubbish cameras. I was working in camera sales during the start of the 35mm AF era, and Olympus users were simply left out in the cold with God-awful 35mm AF cameras, and most of their user base went to Minoilta,Nikon,or Canon. Pentax also failed, MISERABLY, in the transition.

Anyway...yeah, OM-1!! Nice camera. If it were manufactured today, people would no doubt carp about the location of the shutter speed ring, located around the lens...like in the Nikkormat way that came before. Back in the day, OLy had a REALY sexy 180mm f/2.0 lens...wow!

I think if you want to practice, you should consider shooting a 100-ISO color slide film and using the digital as a rough indicator or how that will look.


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## minicoop1985 (Jan 3, 2014)

Derrel, I'm an Oly DSLR user. Don't get me started about focus... or lack thereof. The 4/3 SLR cameras just SUCK at focusing. Worst AF system I've used, and I've used the old AF stuff.

The OM is what Olympus got RIGHT. Sure, people might gripe about that shutter speed ring, but the absolute bulletproof engineering of these things more than makes up for it. That and overall quality. And TTL metering/flash control (OM-1n). And accessory selection. And I'm listing things again. But still, there's not much to complain about, really. You're probably more likely to will this to the next generation than you are to wear it out.


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## djacobox372 (Jan 8, 2014)

cgw said:


> With respect, I'd forget something as ancient as a Nikon F. In fact, I'll play contrarian and advise skipping mechanical holy relics like K1000s and SRT 101s altogether and going instead for late model Nikon AF bodies like the 8008s/801s or N90s/F90x or even an F100. Why? They're decades newer and work well with manual focus lenses. Big bright viewfinders and deadly accurate spot/center-weighted metering. Above all, they're dirt cheap and widely available. Film camera repair options can be pricey and tough to find now, so buying the newest film gear you can afford that suits your needs makes some sense.



A Nikon f is more likely to work and stay working than the other cameras you listed.  Electronics wear out about 100 times faster than mechanics.


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