# Yalls Thoughts On My First Neg. Police Encounter



## rescue341

Hey all. I wasn't exactly sure where to put this so please forgive me if i'm in the wrong place. I had my frist negitve police encounter today and was hopeing for thoughts and advice for the future

A little background on this location and how I deal with people this is local flea market that I've done photo walks at a few times in the past. There have been a few times I have been approached by people asking qustions mostly all pleasent encounter ending in me deleting there photo and apologize for offending them. There have been a few less pleasant encounters with people being rude and yelling these have all ended peacefully with me telling them It's a protected right upheld by the supreme court and walking away. I am very much of a it's how you apporch me kind of guy

Round one:
Now on to todays events. So I get to the flea market and do as I ussaly do I start at the far end and make laps takeing picture of anyting that catches my eye. People talking about an old oil lantern, a old plow ect ect. I made about three laps before I notice a guy walking backwards towards me. He gets to me and in a real hushed and angery voice says "delete the picture!" I reply " I dont think I have any of you but hold on ill check" This made him mad and he got out of his hushed voice and started yelling how thats BS he saw me take his picture. At this point with the guy yelling I have already decided I dont care if I have a pic of him or not and if I do i dont care how out of focus it is im not deleating it. So I start the whole spill that its a frist amendment right, Hes in a public place with not expectation of privacy blah blah blah. I start to walk away and he grabs for my camera. I push him back and hit record on my camera (my card was almost full so I only got part of the altercation). He chest up and i put my arm out keeping him at a distance and yelling commands to back up or I will press charges, He backs up and walks away. I check my camera for damage and go in the other direction to countiune on. A few mins latter he finds and starts a verbal altercation hes yelling about wire tap laws and privacy and that im some kind of prevent and he rents a space at the flea market so its like his home an i cant take pictures of his home. a small coward forms with a few taking pictures of me and a few joing in with the guy. Someone who saw this called the police who came and delt with it. I showed them the partial video I had gotten of the assualt and they asked if i wanted to press charges I refused becuase I wasnt hurt and my stuff was broke so I saw no point in risking runing someone elses life by trying to send them to jail. these officer were very good about understanding photograghy as a right. One very respectfuly tried to convince me to not take any photos of anyone I explanied to him that i understood what he ment but I couldnt let anyone bully me out of a right i bleive in. Again these officers were wonderful the Neg encounter comes in round two

Round Two:
Becuase the altercation with the guy drew a small coward that sided with him this kind of set the tone of the venders for the rest of the day. I had many get angry and yell and cuss but to some of there credits I also had a few really good conversations with some including a Mexican immigrant who told me it made him very said to see so many people who never lived with out rights forgetting how important those rights are. Fast forward to the end of the day when most vendors are packing up. I see a woman packing up some amazing wood carvings she had made. I raise my camera and start to pull focus when she bends down picks up a rock and throws it at me. I hit record as she picks up hand fulls of gravel and slings them at me. Yelling shell call the cops. I tell her mama if you dont stop throwing gravel ill call th- Boom I catch a rock in my eye. I call 911 and request deputys respond to my location. they get there and say nothing about the woman throwing rocks. When I try to show them the video. They refuse. One officer ask me for my Press ID. I tell him I dont have a Press ID but I do have a drivers licences if he needs to see it. He says without a press ID I cant take pictures of people. I try explaing to him and any member of the public can be considered a member of the press and the a press ID gives no more rights then a citzen already has. He doesn't want to here it. He goes on to say I may have a right to photograph in public but not when its harassment by shoving a camera in peoples faces. I show him my telescoping lens and explain to him that my shots are taking from as far away as possible so i can capture more natural interactions and how is that shoving a camera in someones face. The encounter ends after a few more threats from the officer that he will charge me with harassment and a few more times of being called an idiot by the officer. I have a appointment with his Sargent to talk about the encounter Monday

What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts


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## vintagesnaps

Who owns the flea market? It's up to them if people are allowed to bring in cameras. You're photographing what seems to be the vendors' place of business since they presumably are paying to rent the space to sell merchandise. Sometimes businesses or stores have restrictions on their merchandise being photographed.

If you're there all day going around I think if I was a vendor I'd be wondering what you were doing and what you're going to do with that many photos.because that's a lot of time to spend taking pictures. I've done sports and events; it doesn't take all that long to photograph an event. If I'm taking pictures just for my own personal use at a festival or event I doubt I'd be there all day; if I was working a day long event I don't think I'd be taking pictures all day either. It seems like an excessive amount of time the way you describe it.

Obviously even if cameras are allowed by the flea market management, you seem to be coming across as an annoyance to the vendors. Maybe it's the amount of time you're there, maybe it's just too much for them feeling like they're constantly being photographed while they're trying to work. From the way you described it I could see how you might be getting on their nerves. You might need to rethink what you're doing and how it's coming across to them since they don't exactly seem receptive to your presence. Whether it's taking photos or watching or staring I think that gets uncomfortable after awhile. Would you want someone to do that to you? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to, especially if it's to the point of getting to be too much.


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## Tim Tucker 2

I agree with @vintagesnaps. If the mall is a closed area or hall then is it not a public space and you do not necessarily have any permission to photograph there, you certainly do not automatically have the right.
Secondly not everybody would take kindly to having someone document their movements, which especially includes the stall's customers. Who, like yourself, would most likely just walk away from the encounter and possibly the mall. You might think yourself an artist, but the stall holder's customers might just find it intrusive and repeated often may eventually get on the stall holder's nerves.

Though I do not necessarily agree with the confrontational nature of dispute settling, approaching disputes as though they were aggressive contests where you have to protect or defend your "whatever" does seem to be common behaviour over in America.


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## SCraig

I have to agree with the others.  You weren't in a public place, you were in a private business.  The requirements of the flea market owner prevail and it is your responsibility to determine beforehand what those requirements are.  If they say you are allowed to take photos there then you have a valid argument.  If they say it is not, or you didn't check first, then in my opinion you do not.

View it as you would a sporting event.  They would also be considered places where "The Public Gathers" and a place where "People have no expectation of privacy".  You are still bound by the rules of the event organizers and/or the owners of the property.  If they say "No Photography" or "No Smoking" or no this or no that you are still bound by those rules (not laws but rules) and it is your responsibility to know what they are beforehand.


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## astroNikon

I agree with the above but more importantly, I don't understand why you would keep subjecting yourself to that situation?


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## jcdeboever

I would have just left. Just because we have rights to do something doesn't always mean we should. If I have to explain my rights, then it is obvious that I am not wanted. Physical altercations are not good and have to handled correctly and swiftly, if you don't have that ability, leave immediately,  run if you have too. The key indicater here is the crowd supporting the other guy, time to leave, you didn't, it escalated because of your reaction. I am learning it's more about how I interact with the people, more so then taking images. Body language, smiling, and being genuinely grateful to be a part of my surroundings goes a long way for an enriching experience. 

Let's face it, this is not the 70's where not everyone had a camera. I think people are sick of cameras thanks to cell phones. Especially police. It's not like I am on assignment for LA Times, or a magazine. If I have the slightest feeling I have to be or feel sneaky, I pack it up and go shoot something else.


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## smoke665

Rule #1- No matter how well you think you know your legal standing, you will not win an argument with an officer on the scene.

Rule #2 - If your encounter is going badly, refer back to rule #1.


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## zombiesniper

I've heard the misused "Public Place" "No expectation of privacy" statements quite a bit lately. Most of the time, they're wrong.

First in order for it to be a "public place" it MUST be owned by the public i.e. municipal, state/provincial or federal government. Once something is owned by a person, business or corporation it is now a private place which negates the first statement. 

Second. The only way you can get away with the no expectation of privacy is if you can AND did take the pictures from public ground but could see into the private place. The reason I say this is that the company that owns the private property is the only one that can dictate the level of privacy to be expected.

Third. The company will side with the vendors since all you have demonstrated to them (even though it wasn't your intent) is a possible loss of revenue.

Lastly. I would always comply in this type of situation. Would rather not get the shot but be seen as a reasonable person than to get into the "It's my right" argument since most people who start with It's my right....are actually incorrect since most people have never actually read what their rights and responsibilities are.

Cliffnotes, comply


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## weepete

A public space is normally defined as a place the public has access to, whither it is privately owned or not and can still be places that charge an entrance fee. It's pretty well defined in most places that restrict smoking in public places (though in the UK if it's a place that is privatley owned then you just need permission from the owner to photograph there. Permission is normally assumed, until you are told you don't have permission. But even then all they can do is eject you from the premises if you don't comply - laws may vary in other countries)


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## smoke665

As @zombiesniper stated above the "public place" argument gets used a lot, but something that fails to be recognized is that your rights end where mine begin. 

Most states have Harassment laws on the books which cover behavior even in a public space. While you may have some right to photograph an individual they could well be protected by harassment laws that prevent you from annoying them or making them feel uncomfortable. If they are working, your mere presence with a camera could be considered an impediment to them doing their job.


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## weepete

jcdeboever said:


> I would have just left. Just because we have rights to do something doesn't always mean we should. If I have to explain my rights, then it is obvious that I am not wanted. Physical altercations are not good and have to handled correctly and swiftly, if you don't have that ability, leave immediately,  run if you have too. The key indicater here is the crowd supporting the other guy, time to leave, you didn't, it escalated because of your reaction. I am learning it's more about how I interact with the people, more so then taking images. Body language, smiling, and being genuinely grateful to be a part of my surroundings goes a long way for an enriching experience.
> 
> Let's face it, this is not the 70's where not everyone had a camera. I think people are sick of cameras thanks to cell phones. Especially police. It's not like I am on assignment for LA Times, or a magazine. If I have the slightest feeling I have to be or feel sneaky, I pack it up and go shoot something else.



Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly with this. As photographers we should have consideration towards others. It wouldn't surprise me if we see the law on photography changing and getting more restrictive in the next decade or so.


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## Designer

rescue341 said:


> What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts


It seems much of the events you described stem from your own actions.  Pick a new hobby.


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## astroNikon

Designer said:


> It seems much of the events you described stem from your own actions.  Pick a new hobby.


Like poking sleeping Tigers ?


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## 480sparky

Remember........... one's answer depends greatly on where on the planet one is located at.

Personally, I'd just merrily delete the images to defuse the situation.





















Then immediately change memory cards, continue shooting...................... and recover the images when I get back to the computer.


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## table1349

rescue341 said:


> Hey all. I wasn't exactly sure where to put this so please forgive me if i'm in the wrong place. I had my frist negitve police encounter today and was hopeing for thoughts and advice for the future
> 
> A little background on this location and how I deal with people this is local flea market that I've done photo walks at a few times in the past. There have been a few times I have been approached by people asking qustions mostly all pleasent encounter ending in me deleting there photo and apologize for offending them. There have been a few less pleasant encounters with people being rude and yelling these have all ended peacefully with me telling them It's a protected right upheld by the supreme court and walking away. I am very much of a it's how you apporch me kind of guy
> 
> Round one:
> Now on to todays events. So I get to the flea market and do as I ussaly do I start at the far end and make laps takeing picture of anyting that catches my eye. People talking about an old oil lantern, a old plow ect ect. I made about three laps before I notice a guy walking backwards towards me. He gets to me and in a real hushed and angery voice says "delete the picture!" I reply " I dont think I have any of you but hold on ill check" This made him mad and he got out of his hushed voice and started yelling how thats BS he saw me take his picture. At this point with the guy yelling I have already decided I dont care if I have a pic of him or not and if I do i dont care how out of focus it is im not deleating it. So I start the whole spill that its a frist amendment right, Hes in a public place with not expectation of privacy blah blah blah. I start to walk away and he grabs for my camera. I push him back and hit record on my camera (my card was almost full so I only got part of the altercation). He chest up and i put my arm out keeping him at a distance and yelling commands to back up or I will press charges, He backs up and walks away. I check my camera for damage and go in the other direction to countiune on. A few mins latter he finds and starts a verbal altercation hes yelling about wire tap laws and privacy and that im some kind of prevent and he rents a space at the flea market so its like his home an i cant take pictures of his home. a small coward forms with a few taking pictures of me and a few joing in with the guy. Someone who saw this called the police who came and delt with it. I showed them the partial video I had gotten of the assualt and they asked if i wanted to press charges I refused becuase I wasnt hurt and my stuff was broke so I saw no point in risking runing someone elses life by trying to send them to jail. these officer were very good about understanding photograghy as a right. One very respectfuly tried to convince me to not take any photos of anyone I explanied to him that i understood what he ment but I couldnt let anyone bully me out of a right i bleive in. Again these officers were wonderful the Neg encounter comes in round two
> 
> Round Two:
> Becuase the altercation with the guy drew a small coward that sided with him this kind of set the tone of the venders for the rest of the day. I had many get angry and yell and cuss but to some of there credits I also had a few really good conversations with some including a Mexican immigrant who told me it made him very said to see so many people who never lived with out rights forgetting how important those rights are. Fast forward to the end of the day when most vendors are packing up. I see a woman packing up some amazing wood carvings she had made. I raise my camera and start to pull focus when she bends down picks up a rock and throws it at me. I hit record as she picks up hand fulls of gravel and slings them at me. Yelling shell call the cops. I tell her mama if you dont stop throwing gravel ill call th- Boom I catch a rock in my eye. I call 911 and request deputys respond to my location. they get there and say nothing about the woman throwing rocks. When I try to show them the video. They refuse. One officer ask me for my Press ID. I tell him I dont have a Press ID but I do have a drivers licences if he needs to see it. He says without a press ID I cant take pictures of people. I try explaing to him and any member of the public can be considered a member of the press and the a press ID gives no more rights then a citzen already has. He doesn't want to here it. He goes on to say I may have a right to photograph in public but not when its harassment by shoving a camera in peoples faces. I show him my telescoping lens and explain to him that my shots are taking from as far away as possible so i can capture more natural interactions and how is that shoving a camera in someones face. The encounter ends after a few more threats from the officer that he will charge me with harassment and a few more times of being called an idiot by the officer. I have a appointment with his Sargent to talk about the encounter Monday
> 
> What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts


This is what happens when a photographer decides that they are also a lawyer because they read an article or watched a video on Youtube on the internet.  And we all know that everything on the internet is true.


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## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> ...........  And we all know that everything on the internet is true.



Never believe everything you see on the internet.
................................................................._Thomas Jefferson_


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## smoke665

gryphonslair99 said:


> This is what happens when a photographer decides that they are also a lawyer because they read an article or watched a video on Youtube



The problem I see here is that what the OP was doing resulted in the police being called not once but twice. If you'll notice the first encounter was cordial, the 2nd less so, and I imagine a 3rd would have resulted in being given a ride in a police car. The job of the LEO is not to determine right or wrong but to maintain order. If you persist in being disruptive, right or wrong, they will charge you and let the judge sort it out.


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## KmH

The flea market is probably on private property, not on public property.
People in the flea market, both buyers and sellers, are out in public and can have no reasonable expectation of privacy.

However the property owner (not the cops, not a buyer or a seller) can prohibit photographs being made on their property.
Today, with the proliferation of phone cameras, enforcing a prohibition of making photos on private property can be a tough nut to crack.

The Press ID thing by the cop was a canard and just a BS excuse to get you to do what the cop wanted you to do, not what the law is.
Most cops have a limited familiarity of the laws of their own state let alone with federal laws.

I agree that in your own best interests you should have stopped and that your familiarity of your rights could use some improvement.

If your belief in your rights is strong enough it may be worth being arrested so you can use the courts to expose a LEO willing to exceed his bounds to deny you your rights.

There is a place in our society for peaceful civil disobedience.


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## nerwin

Good thing my family owns the local flea market in my town. I'm free to do what I want lol.

But I have no interest in taking photos at flea markets. Though I have taking pictures of interesting finds with my phone but that's a different thing.

If you are going there every week, I can see that getting on their nerves.

But generally I also agree with what others are saying.

However, I'd like to mention one thing. The presence of your person can be a huge factor. When I'm shooting in public, I generally look like I'm on a mission and no one ever bothers me. In Boston, I took pictures of people and some of them posed. Took photos of cops and they smiled.

I mean, it's a really werid thing your presence is. It can be a difference of a confrontation to an opportunity.


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## Gary A.

Firstly, knowing your location would be helpful as laws are quite different from country to country.

In the USA, possibly, the best statement made in this thread was by smoke665. Unfortunately or fortunately, the cops are there/here to keep the peace.  Usually cops will take the path of least resistance to maintain said peace. It is easier to deal with a single stubborn photographer than a crowd of ignorant, angry, hostile people.  In most any situation, common sense should prevail over law. 

Again, in the USA, yes you have a right to photograph in public, but you don't have the right to start a riot or even a fight.  Yes, you have a right to defend yourself but common sense says that discretion is the better part of valor ... choose your battle carefully.

I've seen flea markets on public and private ground.  Usually, those in public the park/parking lot/et cetera will be leased to a private company so in either case it is not a clear 1st Amendment case (unless you kept to the public sidewalk). Even on publicly owned property you can be restricted from shooting, a school or a military base won't let you school willy-nilly without prior consent. Some places which are clearly private, as in the common areas of a shopping mall, can be considered a public place in the USA.  So the law isn't always crystal clear and there are many exceptions. 

Press does have more privileges than the average citizen.  Example:  The press can cross a police line, the press can legally withhold information when questioned by police and/or courts. But in your particular case the press has no greater rights/privileges than the average citizen.

Most security personnel are extremely ignorant of constitutional rights and quite frankly, most don't give a rat's, as smoke665 stated, it is all about keeping the peace.  There is enough broadly written laws on the books to nail you on something else other than taking pictures in public.  Unless you have equal or more resources available for attorneys than the agency arresting you and a lot of time on your hands to sit in court ... being pragmatic is a much easier and less painful path your righteous road.  For a lot of us, pragmaticism works better than righteousness ... but God Bless those who stand up for their rights and the rights of others.

My own personal and objective observations and with my observations being reinforced by judges ... police lie in court.  The judges tend to use words like "fudge" with the truth ... but the bottom line is that in a court of law, most juries will side with police than a common citizen and the police stack the deck by "fudging" their testimony. 

Speaking with the cop's superior can certainly helpful, but I suggest to be constructive, give appreciation to the tough job cops have to do, speak to pragmatism, ask to speak to the offending officer either then or a latter date and if the superior states anything contrary, be quick and firm in correcting the record. 

If the flea market is important to you and/or your photography, don't stalk the people from afar.  Sling your camera around your neck and walk amongst the stalls, PURCHASE SOMETHING, talk to the people and try Not to take an unwelcomed photo.  Hopefully, after many visits you and your uncontentious and friendly nature will be welcomed.

Personally and pragmatically, I figure why go someplace where you're not welcomed ... but you mentioned many there did welcome you.  Then visit their stalls, chat with them, share some food that you purchased there with them, take them a print of their stall. Even say something positive to those who assaulted you, most are acting out of ignorance ... be thankful for being less ignorant and more tolerant than they.

There is no single correct answer here, other than avoid a conflict if possible.  So take what everybody stated in ... take some time to let it all soak in then take a course which you and other can all live with.

Good Luck and Good Shooting.


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## pendennis

weepete said:


> A public space is normally defined as a place the public has access to, whither it is privately owned or not and can still be places that charge an entrance fee. It's pretty well defined in most places that restrict smoking in public places (though in the UK if it's a place that is privatley owned then you just need permission from the owner to photograph there. Permission is normally assumed, until you are told you don't have permission. But even then all they can do is eject you from the premises if you don't comply - laws may vary in other countries)



Private property rights in the U.S. vary a bit with those in Scotland and Great Britain.

Private property means just that.  When you enter by invitation, you must comply with the rules of the property owner.  Paid admission to an event is a limited invitation.

On public property, that is, any property owned publicly, either by a government unit, or by dedication to public use, you can generally take photos of anything in view.  This is not absolute "black letter law".  When you're on a public sidewalk, for instance, you can take a photo of private property, even if the owner doesn't agree (I've had this exact experience).  If you attempt to photograph law enforcement, you can have problems, because the police have broad powers to interpret "interference with a police operation".  Generally, if you're taking pictures of a working fire, as long as you remain out of the way of the firefighters, you're O.K.

In a shopping mall, for example, the owners may ban any photography except upon their express permission.  I found this out the easy way, when a couple wanted a wedding candid at a beautiful fountain in a mall atrium.  I got permission to take the photo, expressly approved by the mall manager, and limited to that location only.

If, for instance, a flea market is taking place at a municipal parking lot, you generally have permission, unless the parking lot is leased for the event.  In that case, the lessee can set the privacy rules, but they have to be specific, and in writing.  They also have to comply with municipal law.

And, no, I will not delete any photograph I've taken, either digital or analog.

PS - I also protect myself from assault.


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## nerwin

Yeah shopping malls can be weird sometimes. I've got blamed for terrorism one time in a mall. Apparently everyone else was allowed to take photos except for me, heck I was just using my phone and I didn't even have my camera with me. I almost talked to a police officer that was there just to get some clarification, but I decided to leave or well was basically followed until I left. Kind of was scary for being blamed for terrorism. 

Here in Vermont, the mall I go to doesn't even care if you do photo shoots inside lol. They actually have an employee who takes photos of people shopping and displays them on their Facebook page. 

But the joke's on them! Malls are on their way out anyways.


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## vintagesnaps

I think too it depends on where you live... Here there can be places/venues that are privately owned/managed/leased but the public attends events or uses the facility, etc. Doesn't mean it's necessarily public if 'the general public' is in attendance. I've seen stores with signs posted that cameras/photography is not allowed. I've seen a difference in sports in more recent years because, yeah, public safety is much more of a concern, and teams/arenas are protecting their name, logo, product (including the team/player images, etc.). Probably better to find out first what the policies are for an event or venue etc. 

I've found photography can often involve interacting with people, whether you necessarily want it to be or not! lol Treating people with respect and consideration can go a long way.


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## nerwin

What I can't stand the most is some places don't even have any information whether or not photography is allowed. Then, when you ask an employee, they don't even know. So you go start shooting and then get yelled at. It's like, if they don't want people taking photos then CLEARLY put up signs stating that fact. Honestly, I believe they pick and choose and I don't believe that's right.


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## table1349

480sparky said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...........  And we all know that everything on the internet is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never believe everything you see on the internet.
> ................................................................._Thomas Jefferson_
Click to expand...

Yep that is not true.  Never believe everything you see on the internet was spoken by George Washington not Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson said never believe everything you see on You Tube.  Jefferson was a big You Tube fan.  Don't believe me, go to You Tube and type in his name.  Hundreds of videos will pop up.


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## table1349

smoke665 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what happens when a photographer decides that they are also a lawyer because they read an article or watched a video on Youtube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem I see here is that what the OP was doing resulted in the police being called not once but twice. If you'll notice the first encounter was cordial, the 2nd less so, and I imagine a 3rd would have resulted in being given a ride in a police car. The job of the LEO is not to determine right or wrong but to maintain order. If you persist in being disruptive, right or wrong, they will charge you and let the judge sort it out.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but the maintaining of order does require and LEO to determine right and wrong at any given time in a situation.  It is the job of the courts to affirm or deny that a particular law or laws were broken and by whom.


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## nerwin




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## table1349

Gary A. said:


> Press does have more privileges than the average citizen.  Example:  The press can cross a police line, the press can legally withhold information when questioned by police and/or courts. But in your particular case the press has no greater rights/privileges than the average citizen.



That is a true and not true.  It is a jurisdictional thing.  In Kansas the press cannot cross a police line.  To do so can garner an arrest.  Being a member of the press here garners you no further rights than the average citizen in regards to such things as crossing a police line.  



> My own personal and objective observations and with my observations being reinforced by judges ... police lie in court.  The judges tend to use words like "fudge" with the truth ... but the bottom line is that in a court of law, most juries will side with police than a common citizen and the police stack the deck by "fudging" their testimony.


If Gary knows of ANY judge that has told him this they are either a liar or they at the minimum should be reported and removed from the judiciary and disbarred.  At the most, they should be charged with the concealment of perjured testimony and judicial misconduct and the officers charged with perjury.  

A judge by his oath is to remain neutral and unbiased.  If a judge has not done so they have violated their oath at the very least.  The public is generally distrustful of lawyers, but they look to judges as keepers of the truth.


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## Gary A.

[/QUOTE]
If Gary knows of ANY judge that has told him this they are either a liar or they at the minimum should be reported and removed from the judiciary and disbarred.  At the most, they should be charged with the concealment of perjured testimony and judicial misconduct and the officers charged with perjury. 

A judge by his oath is to remain neutral and unbiased.  If a judge has not done so they have violated their oath at the very least.  The public is generally distrustful of lawyers, but they look to judges as keepers of the truth.[/QUOTE]
An expert observation by a judge is not grounds for disbarment. If a judge cannot regularly separate fact from fudging ... elaboration from fantasy, objectively interpret the law without regards to personal opinions  ... I think that person should not be a judge.

Interestingly, my main thrust was to beware of going to court because it is the home field of the police.  They are not intimidated by courts, have been expertly instructed what to say and how to behave in order to win a conviction.  Often, what they say and how they behave is more about winning than justice. But you pivoted my remarks pointing the finger at judges as being the culprit.  There is a huge difference between a society we legislate and desire/wish to be ... and the de facto realty.  If we ALL we righteous, we wouldn't need most courts ... especially criminal courts. I do not see how a judge's personal and expert observations of police testimony in their courtrooms, would, by and of itself, prejudices their conduct and be a reason for disbarment.


----------



## smoke665

gryphonslair99 said:


> Sorry, but the maintaining of order does require and LEO to determine right and wrong at any given time in a situation



Think you're splitting hairs and missed the big picture of my point. The police had already been called to a disturbance which the OP created by taking pictures. Per the OP's words they "respectfully" asked him to stop.  Then the situation  escalated to a larger confrontation a second time requiring them to respond. By that time, like Gary A said they probably didn't care if he had the right to take pictures or not.


----------



## pendennis

nerwin said:


> What I can't stand the most is some places don't even have any information whether or not photography is allowed. Then, when you ask an employee, they don't even know. So you go start shooting and then get yelled at. It's like, if they don't want people taking photos then CLEARLY put up signs stating that fact. Honestly, I believe they pick and choose and I don't believe that's right.


Amen to that!

The local Kroger stores have very nice floral selections, and I've often gone there to grab a few shots of some of the arrangements for my personal, not commercial use.  Last time I tried this, the clerk behind the counter advised me that I could no longer do that.  I asked why, and she referred me to the store manager.  I've known him for about six years, but he confirmed that pictures weren't allowed anywhere in the store, that it was Kroger policy.  I didn't dispute him, and he showed me his "rule" book.  It's not posted anywhere, but nonetheless so.


----------



## astroNikon

gryphonslair99 said:


> Yep that is not true.  Never believe everything you see on the internet was spoken by George Washington not Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson said never believe everything you see on You Tube.  Jefferson was a big You Tube fan.  Don't believe me, go to You Tube and type in his name.  Hundreds of videos will pop up.


The biggest problem though is that Thomas Jefferson used a private email server.


----------



## Jamesaz

Did you buy anything from anyone or just take photos? If you were also a shopper people would probably be more inclined to let you take some pictures of their booth. Remember, they are at the market to make a living.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## table1349

> If Gary knows of ANY judge that has told him this they are either a liar or they at the minimum should be reported and removed from the judiciary and disbarred.  At the most, they should be charged with the concealment of perjured testimony and judicial misconduct and the officers charged with perjury.
> 
> A judge by his oath is to remain neutral and unbiased.  If a judge has not done so they have violated their oath at the very least.  The public is generally distrustful of lawyers, but they look to judges as keepers of the truth.
> An expert observation by a judge is not grounds for disbarment. If a judge cannot regularly separate fact from fudging ... elaboration from fantasy, objectively interpret the law without regards to personal opinions  ... I think that person should not be a judge.
> 
> Interestingly, my main thrust was to beware of going to court because it is the home field of the police.  They are not intimidated by courts, have been expertly instructed what to say and how to behave in order to win a conviction.  Often, what they say and how they behave is more about winning than justice. But you pivoted my remarks pointing the finger at judges as being the culprit.  There is a huge difference between a society we legislate and desire/wish to be ... and the de facto realty.  If we ALL we righteous, we wouldn't need most courts ... especially criminal courts. I do not see how a judge's personal and expert observations of police testimony in their courtrooms, would, by and of itself, prejudices their conduct and be a reason for disbarment.


[/QUOTE]
Perhaps then that either the judge(s) or Gary needs to choose their words more carefully.  *"My own personal and objective observations and with my observations being reinforced by judges ... police lie in court."*  This is not a statement of opinion rather one of purported fact.  There is a big difference between the two.  If it is fact it is criminal, if it is opinion then it's merits are of far less value.

The courts are not the home field of the police, rather they are the home field of the judges, the prosecutors and the defense attorneys.  The only reason that police officers testimony tends to carry weight is the fact that police officers are required to live lives above that of the average citizen.  There is no Giglio for judges or attorneys.  Nor is there any Giglio rule for the defense and their witnesses.

Prosecutors and some courts have taken the extremely cautious approach to Giglio as it has not been completely defined by the courts.   In this jurisdiction it is not uncommon for an officers testimony to not even be heard for some completely unrelated incident many years in his past, even in his childhood.  When I was still working we had two officers that were on the "Giglio List" because they were caught shoplifting in their early teen.  One was only 11 the other 13.  Since theft is considered a crime of dishonesty the were not eve called by the prosecution and in some instances the cases were even dropped.  This was not the ruling in Giglio, but that is where it has lead. 

If a judge truly believes that an officer "fudges" the judge has more than enough power to raise that in open court or in chambers.  I have been present twice when a judge in open court did just that.  Once the judge found them-self in a judicial review hearing and was severely sanctioned for it was learned that the judge disliked the particular unit the officer worked in as well as having a dislike for the officer.  That judge was voted out a few months later.

The second time, our department couldn't fire the officer fast enough nor could the District Attorneys office file charges fast enough once the matter came to light.

Judges make some of their "expert observations" having never observed what they are making their judgments on.  One of the most respected judges currently on the bench here was a prosecutor before being appointed a judge.  He happened to be a chief prosecutor which meant he was at the scene of many, many incidents and observed how things actually occurred.   In fact he still owes me a cigar and a jar of Vicks Vaporub.  The are the odor fighter of choice by officers, firefighters, and EMT's whenever they come across a really ripe one.  Vicks in the nose and puff, not inhale, hard on the cigar to block all the smell sensors possible.


----------



## table1349

smoke665 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but the maintaining of order does require and LEO to determine right and wrong at any given time in a situation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think you're splitting hairs and missed the big picture of my point. The police had already been called to a disturbance which the OP created by taking pictures. Per the OP's words they "respectfully" asked him to stop.  Then the situation  escalated to a larger confrontation a second time requiring them to respond. By that time, like Gary A said they probably didn't care if he had the right to take pictures or not.
Click to expand...


An important part of that picture however is the reasoning behind their being there in the first place.   You can deal with it correctly the first time or you can deal with it later in civil court.  The fact that one or more of the participants didn't like the outcome is irreverent.  It's like the person that is instructed that they are under arrest and decides that the police are wrong and resists.  The police may or may not have been right when the person was informed they were under arrest, but the moment the person resisted they were wrong, no matter whether the arrest was valid or not.  

Personally from reading this situation this would have been a two strikes your out rather than a three strikes your out situation.


----------



## Tim Tucker 2

pendennis said:


> weepete said:
> 
> 
> 
> A public space is normally defined as a place the public has access to, whither it is privately owned or not and can still be places that charge an entrance fee. It's pretty well defined in most places that restrict smoking in public places (though in the UK if it's a place that is privatley owned then you just need permission from the owner to photograph there. Permission is normally assumed, until you are told you don't have permission. But even then all they can do is eject you from the premises if you don't comply - laws may vary in other countries)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Private property rights in the U.S. vary a bit with those in Scotland and Great Britain.
> 
> Private property means just that.  When you enter by invitation, you must comply with the rules of the property owner.  Paid admission to an event is a limited invitation.
> 
> On public property, that is, any property owned publicly, either by a government unit, or by dedication to public use, you can generally take photos of anything in view.  This is not absolute "black letter law".  When you're on a public sidewalk, for instance, you can take a photo of private property, even if the owner doesn't agree (I've had this exact experience).  If you attempt to photograph law enforcement, you can have problems, because the police have broad powers to interpret "interference with a police operation".  Generally, if you're taking pictures of a working fire, as long as you remain out of the way of the firefighters, you're O.K.
> 
> In a shopping mall, for example, the owners may ban any photography except upon their express permission.  I found this out the easy way, when a couple wanted a wedding candid at a beautiful fountain in a mall atrium.  I got permission to take the photo, expressly approved by the mall manager, and limited to that location only.
> 
> If, for instance, a flea market is taking place at a municipal parking lot, you generally have permission, unless the parking lot is leased for the event.  In that case, the lessee can set the privacy rules, but they have to be specific, and in writing.  They also have to comply with municipal law.
> 
> And, no, I will not delete any photograph I've taken, either digital or analog.
> 
> PS - I also protect myself from assault.
Click to expand...


It's not that different in the UK, there is no privacy law or any real right to photograph. The law is written that there is no, and can be no expectation of privacy in a public place. On top of that everybody has the right to pursue their legitimate business. You don't have the right to photograph, it's more along the lines of there's no law that restricts you from doing it.
There is no expectation of privacy in a "mall" as it is a public place but because it's a privately owned space the owners do have a right to ban photography and you can be kicked out for non-compliance.


----------



## Parker219

OP - From all the hours you have spent taking photos at the flea market, you must capture some really interesting images. I think you should post some in this thread.


----------



## table1349

I'm thinking that the OP may not return with photos.  Right now they are probably feeling like Cauliflower McPugg after a fight.


----------



## Gary A.

gryphonslair99 said:


> If Gary knows of ANY judge that has told him this they are either a liar or they at the minimum should be reported and removed from the judiciary and disbarred.  At the most, they should be charged with the concealment of perjured testimony and judicial misconduct and the officers charged with perjury.
> 
> A judge by his oath is to remain neutral and unbiased.  If a judge has not done so they have violated their oath at the very least.  The public is generally distrustful of lawyers, but they look to judges as keepers of the truth.
> An expert observation by a judge is not grounds for disbarment. If a judge cannot regularly separate fact from fudging ... elaboration from fantasy, objectively interpret the law without regards to personal opinions  ... I think that person should not be a judge.
> 
> Interestingly, my main thrust was to beware of going to court because it is the home field of the police.  They are not intimidated by courts, have been expertly instructed what to say and how to behave in order to win a conviction.  Often, what they say and how they behave is more about winning than justice. But you pivoted my remarks pointing the finger at judges as being the culprit.  There is a huge difference between a society we legislate and desire/wish to be ... and the de facto realty.  If we ALL we righteous, we wouldn't need most courts ... especially criminal courts. I do not see how a judge's personal and expert observations of police testimony in their courtrooms, would, by and of itself, prejudices their conduct and be a reason for disbarment.
Click to expand...

Perhaps then that either the judge(s) or Gary needs to choose their words more carefully.  *"My own personal and objective observations and with my observations being reinforced by judges ... police lie in court."*  This is not a statement of opinion rather one of purported fact.  There is a big difference between the two.  If it is fact it is criminal, if it is opinion then it's merits are of far less value.

The courts are not the home field of the police, rather they are the home field of the judges, the prosecutors and the defense attorneys.  The only reason that police officers testimony tends to carry weight is the fact that police officers are required to live lives above that of the average citizen.  There is no Giglio for judges or attorneys.  Nor is there any Giglio rule for the defense and their witnesses.

Prosecutors and some courts have taken the extremely cautious approach to Giglio as it has not been completely defined by the courts.   In this jurisdiction it is not uncommon for an officers testimony to not even be heard for some completely unrelated incident many years in his past, even in his childhood.  When I was still working we had two officers that were on the "Giglio List" because they were caught shoplifting in their early teen.  One was only 11 the other 13.  Since theft is considered a crime of dishonesty the were not eve called by the prosecution and in some instances the cases were even dropped.  This was not the ruling in Giglio, but that is where it has lead.

If a judge truly believes that an officer "fudges" the judge has more than enough power to raise that in open court or in chambers.  I have been present twice when a judge in open court did just that.  Once the judge found them-self in a judicial review hearing and was severely sanctioned for it was learned that the judge disliked the particular unit the officer worked in as well as having a dislike for the officer.  That judge was voted out a few months later.

The second time, our department couldn't fire the officer fast enough nor could the District Attorneys office file charges fast enough once the matter came to light.

Judges make some of their "expert observations" having never observed what they are making their judgments on.  One of the most respected judges currently on the bench here was a prosecutor before being appointed a judge.  He happened to be a chief prosecutor which meant he was at the scene of many, many incidents and observed how things actually occurred.   In fact he still owes me a cigar and a jar of Vicks Vaporub.  The are the odor fighter of choice by officers, firefighters, and EMT's whenever they come across a really ripe one.  Vicks in the nose and puff, not inhale, hard on the cigar to block all the smell sensors possible.[/QUOTE]
Yes, police lie is a statement of fact that I personally witnessed in court.  My reply to the judge was "Your honor, the police office is a Goddamn liar." I won the case against the Anaheim Police. Later, I asked a judge friend about police not being truthful in court and he "reinforced" that often they do.

As such, I contend that this a statement of fact that I can personally attest to. There have been other times with similar responses from judges regarding police "fudging", some responses reinforcing my statement sometimes came out of the blue and other times a response to a direct question.  The "fudge" remark actually came out of the blue.

I used to run political campaigns, including many judicial races.  During the course of a campaign I would spent a lot of time in courts and judge's chambers.


----------



## nerwin

gryphonslair99 said:


> I'm thinking that the OP may not return with photos.  Right now they are probably feeling like Cauliflower McPugg after fight.



Or he got arrested.


----------



## rescue341

Nah im still here and a free man. My photos are on my drive at the house im working a 24 right now ill post some to this thread when i get off shift tommrow.

To clarfy a few things. The flea market is owned and runed by the county. I was confussed as to why so many people were saying flea markets are private untill i did some googleing and found most are privatly owned. I guess where the local one is the only I've ever been to I just figured all flea markets were like ours. Also to clarfy the flea market is only open 10-2pm. When i say end of the day in the orginal post im talking about around 1:30pm. Also it's not so much that the flea market is super important to me. I go every few weeks simply becuase its the only public gathering spot around here. So its more of a I want to take some pictures of people doing people things might aswell go to the market. pop some headphones in, walk around and see what i can get.

I'm not sure exactly how to qoute post in this reply but. To the few who suguested I become kind of a part of the market by buying somethings and interacting I really like that ideal. I have Asperger so to me its always been more natural to stay at a distance and avoid interacting. Next time i got ill try to get in to the thick of it and interact with the people.

To the one who said find another hobby, while I apercate your respones. you can go suck a lemon

to the few who were saying just becuase you can doesnt mean you should. I always hated that saying. If what your doing is your right and you want to do it. You should 100% do it. If other people get offened by your right its to bad for them. We dont hsve rights to protect what people love we have rights to protect what pisses them off

Thanks for all the responses guys I apericate them all. Does anyone have any confrontation storys of there own to share?


----------



## tecboy

I suggest you stop taking pictures at the flea market.  You will have more problems and get even worst.  If you want to take pictures at people, go volunteer at your local nonprofit organization.  You will get permission to take pictures, but you have to be respectful for others.


----------



## Parker219

Nevermind


----------



## rescue341

No tecBoy suggestion is vaild I told the one poster that becuase he suggested I find another hobby so i returned his kind advice by suggesting he try sucking a lemon


----------



## Gary A.

The good thing about interacting ... you can do it at your pace. I suspect you'll never be comfortable in a crowd ... but at least it will be your call when and for how long.  I hope you accept and challenge yourself.

You are right that our freedoms are measured by what we tolerate not by what we accept.  But you seem to to working a tough crowd.  Remember that often, intolerant/ignorant people are not easily persuaded to change their ways or accept new ideas. It will be an upward battle.  I appreciate your outlook.

I don't know where you are located, but it doesn't sound like you are near me.  If you were, I'd offer to shoot with you.  It's as easy for two to get arrested as one.


----------



## Gary A.

Here I am about to be arrested.  Not the guy in the photo, he was already arrested.  The big hand is coming for me.


----------



## tecboy

I got confronted so many times from paranoid strangers.  I had drivers blown the horn at me.  Some stick a middle finger at me.  When I was photographing the events, one guest was stern and told me, "Don't take my pictures!"  It was a monthly event, and he kept telling the same thing again every month.  I got to the point that I got very annoying and walked away from him.  Then, he followed me around.  Another time at different occasions, a lady took pictures at me with her iPhone, because she said I take pictures of her.

   Most people don't have a problem, but very few do.  When you do get confronted, there is not much you can do, and you will not win.  Either you talk to them out of it and give a reason why, or walk away and take pictures at different location or different time.  When I get permission to photograph people, I make them feel comfortable and feel welcome by smiling and interacting with them.  Most of them are very friendly and curios.  They will talk to you and ask questions about your camera and ask you "What is the reason for shooting?"  Just because you have Asperger, or you are antisocial, it doesn't really matter.  If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.

   I have photograph large crowds with heavy polices and sheriffs present.  However, I have never gotten confronted or arrested by them.


----------



## smoke665

Gary A. said:


> Here I am about to be arrested.



Back in my early newspaper days I spent a couple hours in jail because I refused to turn off a tape recorder at an open public city council meeting. The recording was brought on by certain members of the Council saying things at the meetings then denying them when I reported it in my column. All charges were quickly dropped, and my report on the incident caused major ripples in the community which ultimately changed the Council. The jail I might add was reminiscent of Mayberry, so my stay was not overly uncomfortable.


----------



## table1349

When ever these discussions turn to rights I find it interesting that they are always quite one sided.  Posters declare they have this right, or that right, how this right or that right was supposedly infringed upon etc.  The one thing that is generally lacking however is the other side of having and maintaining rights and it is a tough one for many people.  

Your rights mean nothing if you fail to shoulder the responsibility that goes along with having those rights.  An individuals personal rights never impinge on the rights of others or on the society as a whole.  One persons rights, no matter who they are or who they think they are, are more important than the rights of any other person.  When exercising one's rights it is their responsibility to care for and respect the rights of others.  The exercising of good judgment is important.

The Photographer claims they have the right to photograph what ever they want and it is often said, if this person or that person doesn't want to be photographed they shouldn't be there.  While true, how much enjoyment or subject matter would there be if the people did stay home or went to a well know, well regulated private situation instead.  The only true resolution would be to either have no public spaces or to charge for the use of those public spaces.  There has been talk in some places of taxing the users of transportation devices for the use of the streets and highways.  What next, taxing a walking fee to use the sidewalk or public park. 

The Journalist claim they have the right to all the information they consider to be news.  But what of the rights of the victim(s), what of the right that they have to expect their case to be thoroughly investigated with out outside interference, to have the suspects discovered and accused properly in a court of law.  What of the rights of the accused to get a fair, impartial trial by a jury of their peers who have not been tainted with excessive information beforehand.  Is the printing of the news more important than the rights of the individuals involved?  

In WWII the printing of the news, a statement by a non thinking glory seeking Senator, caused the deaths of hundreds of American Submariners.  The Senator was wrong and to my mind should have been at the least kicked out of office.  The news outlet however was wrong when they placed their want for a story above the lives and safety of the individuals involved and the nation as a whole.  They did have the right to print what the Senator said, but did they not have a responsibility to not print that comment when it was known and even the news agencies of the day would look for news and information in the publications of those we were fighting. 

The news and the news organizations definitely have their place, but their right is no greater than that of the individuals they serve.  These days many of them have forgotten that their rights are based upon their responsibility to serve and protect the rights of others.  There are however times when their responsibility to protect the rights of others outweighs the selling of papers or air time.   

I agree that when it comes to rights there are many intolerant/ignorant people.  They have generally shown themselves to be those that feel that their rights are of the only importance failing to take responsibility for themselves and their duty to protect the rights of all others.  I have found throughout the years that those who tend to howl the loudest are generally the ones that shoulder the least true responsibility.


----------



## table1349

smoke665 said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here I am about to be arrested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back in my early newspaper days I spent a couple hours in jail because I refused to turn off a tape recorder at an open public city council meeting. The recording was brought on by certain members of the Council saying things at the meetings then denying them when I reported it in my column. All charges were quickly dropped, and my report on the incident caused major ripples in the community which ultimately changed the Council. The jail I might add was reminiscent of Mayberry, so my stay was not overly uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

You should have been arrested in this situation.  Back in the Gutenberg Press days it would have taken at least 12 Monks to be able to properly record what was said at that council meeting.  I mean seriously, when your recording device is that size, you are causing an undeniable disruption to the proceedings, especially when you consider all the chanting and the burning of frankincense and myrrh that goes along with that recording device. 

On the bright side, how was Aunt Bea's peach pie?


----------



## smoke665

gryphonslair99 said:


> On the bright side, how was Aunt Bea's peach pie?



Wasn't there long enough to get the basket lunch, but the recliner/rocker and the tv was quite acceptable!


----------



## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> ............Your rights mean nothing if you fail to shoulder the responsibility that goes along with having those rights. ..............



The flip side of this is 99.9999999999999999% of US citizens have NO IDEA what their rights really are.





gryphonslair99 said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...........  And we all know that everything on the internet is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never believe everything you see on the internet.
> ................................................................._Thomas Jefferson_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep that is not true.  Never believe everything you see on the internet was spoken by George Washington not Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson said never believe everything you see on You Tube.  Jefferson was a big You Tube fan.  Don't believe me, go to You Tube and type in his name.  Hundreds of videos will pop up.
Click to expand...


Jefferson was a big FACEBOOK fan.  *Franklin *was into YouTube.

Geez.  Get it right, will ya?


----------



## chuasam

You're taking photos in a flea market, not doing some ground breaking exposé. If it annoys someone, stop doing it. It's simple courtesy. These are people doing their jobs and not some exhibit in a zoo or a safari animal.


----------



## table1349

480sparky said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ............Your rights mean nothing if you fail to shoulder the responsibility that goes along with having those rights. ..............
> 
> The flip side of this is 99.9999999999999999% of US citizens have NO IDEA what their rights really are.
Click to expand...

Thank you for substantiating the need for responsibility as it is each individuals responsibility to know their rights.


----------



## table1349

480sparky said:


> Jefferson was a big FACEBOOK fan.  *Franklin *was into YouTube.
> 
> Geez.  Get it right, will ya?



No...No...NO!  *Jefferson* was the You Tube fan,  *Franklin* was an Instagram fan so he could be seen by all his French Mistresses.  *Samuel Adams *was the Facebook fan so he could reach more people and sell more beer.


----------



## table1349

smoke665 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the bright side, how was Aunt Bea's peach pie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't there long enough to get the basket lunch, but the recliner/rocker and the tv was quite acceptable!
Click to expand...

Well I hope that at least you got some Ritz Crackers.


----------



## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a big FACEBOOK fan.  *Franklin *was into YouTube.
> 
> Geez.  Get it right, will ya?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...No...NO!  *Jefferson* was the You Tube fan,  *Franklin* was an Instagram fan so he could be seen by all his French Mistresses.  *Samuel Adams *was the Facebook fan so he could reach more people and sell more beer.
Click to expand...


And Paul Revere famously said, "Text Message if by land, email if by sea......."


----------



## table1349

480sparky said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jefferson was a big FACEBOOK fan.  *Franklin *was into YouTube.
> 
> Geez.  Get it right, will ya?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...No...NO!  *Jefferson* was the You Tube fan,  *Franklin* was an Instagram fan so he could be seen by all his French Mistresses.  *Samuel Adams *was the Facebook fan so he could reach more people and sell more beer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And Paul Revere famously said, "Text Message if by land, email if by sea......."
Click to expand...

Let us not forget Nathan Hale's famous words:  *"I regret that I have but one Tweet to give to my country."*


----------



## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> Let us not forget Nathan Hale's famous words:  *"I regret that I have but one Tweet to give to my country."*



And Betsy Ross had to Google "How to Sew a Flag".


----------



## astroNikon

what was this thread about ?


----------



## vintagesnaps

Had you said upfront that you had Asperger's... that makes a big difference in all this. Of course I don't know you to know how the condition affects you, but I have worked with enough kids with autism to know that unusual behaviors are usually part of that condition. Maybe not so much with Asperger's; since I worked with kids with more significant delays I don't know as much about that specific diagnosis.

I would say it's causing a problem to just keep wandering around but not shopping or even chatting with people. That to me is an unusual behavior. If you had gotten to know some of the vendors and eventually said you had Asperger's they might have been more able to show some empathy with who you are and what you're doing. Then they might understand that you enjoy photography but find it challenging to interact with people. As it is, they probably don't know what you're doing because it borders on getting stalkerish and has been annoying.

You mentioning rights being for not what people love but what pisses them off and telling someone to go suck a lemon sounds like maybe you just want to go there and cause trouble. If that's how it is, then I guess you'll manage to keep getting yourself in trouble. Or you could think about finding some support for dealing with Asperger's.

If the issue is that it's a challenge for you to interact with people then I think you'll need to start learning how to get more comfortable doing that if you want to keep taking photos at events. Now it's probably going to be more of a challenge to be accepted at the flea market after this incident. I think your best chance of that is to go be honest with people - start talking to the vendors so they get to know who you are and that your intent was not to cause trouble but to enjoy walking around taking pictures. Eventually you could talk to someone there about your challenges with your diagnosis and maybe they'd be more understanding. It's going to take some courage I imagine to go back there and try to make things better so you can enjoy the flea market again.


----------



## limr

tecboy said:


> Just because you have Asperger, or you are antisocial, it doesn't really matter.  If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.



This is as ridiculous a statement as I've read in a very long time. Do you understand what it's like to have Asperger's, or "be antisocial" or shy, or have social anxiety? Are you really suggesting that someone who has difficulty with social interactions _has no right to photograph in public? _


----------



## tecboy

limr said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you have Asperger, or you are antisocial, it doesn't really matter.  If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is as ridiculous a statement as I've read in a very long time. Do you understand what it's like to have Asperger's, or "be antisocial" or shy, or have social anxiety? Are you really suggesting that someone who has difficulty with social interactions _has no right to photograph in public? _
Click to expand...


 I'm saying he needs to overcome his personal  challenge, if he wants to be a good photographer.  I have met people with autism, and they are very bright.


----------



## tecboy

Also, the op is talking to us in this thread.  He doesn't sound like he has Asperger's syndrome.


----------



## vintagesnaps

It's not that he shouldn't be taking photos, it seems to be more a matter of taking photos at public events and how you interact with people. It's probably going to be difficult to do event photography without developing better skills in interacting with people. 

I found that doing sports and events when I had a media pass shooting at ice level some nights I felt like, what am I, the information booth? because people were coming up and asking me questions during intermissions often enough (I sent them to Will Call...). In general at events it seems like you end up talking to people at some point...

I think this was a rocky start so the challenge now will probably be how to move forward and turn it around to make it a more positive experience for the OP and the vendors at the flea market.


----------



## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> Thank you for substantiating the need for responsibility as it is each individuals responsibility to know their rights.



Sadly, just as misinformed the masses are about their rights, so too are they willing to gleefully enforce 'rights' they do not have


----------



## Braineack

i cant believe i had to actually work today and not contribute to this gem-of-a-thread...


----------



## Designer

rescue341 said:


> I have Asperger ..


You have RIGHTS, a camera, and Asperger's Syndrome, so you're not just some AH who likes to be confrontational.  

Life with Aspergers: The Danger of Allowing Aspergers to Excuse Wrongful Behaviour


----------



## limr

tecboy said:


> I'm saying he needs to overcome his personal  challenge, if he wants to be a good photographer.  I have met people with autism, and they are very bright.



Being bright has nothing to do with the conversation. 
You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a good photographer, and to suggest that this is a necessary component is arrogant and wrong.



tecboy said:


> Also, the op is talking to us in this thread.  He doesn't sound like he has Asperger's syndrome.



The OP said explicitly that he has Asperger's - are you saying that the OP is lying? Do you have any idea what the difference is between communicating through writing and communicating face-to-face? Because interacting through the internet is an entirely different thing than interacting in public. There are so many people - not just those on the spectrum - who can express themselves much more easily through writing than in person.

Asperger Syndrome


----------



## tecboy

limr said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying he needs to overcome his personal  challenge, if he wants to be a good photographer.  I have met people with autism, and they are very bright.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being bright has nothing to do with it. Autism isn't about intelligence.
> You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a good photographer, and to suggest that this is a necessary component is arrogant and wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the op is talking to us in this thread.  He doesn't sound like he has Asperger's syndrome.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The OP said explicitly that he has Asperger's - are you saying that the OP is lying? Do you have any idea what the difference is between communicating through writing and communicating face-to-face? Because interacting through the internet is an entirely different thing than interacting in public. There are so many people - not just those on the spectrum - who can express themselves much more easily through writing than in person.
> 
> Asperger Syndrome
Click to expand...


The op was being more dominant photographer than being as Asperger.   I volunteer at the school with autism.  They are very nice fellows.


----------



## limr

tecboy said:


> The op was being more dominant photographer than being as Asperger.   I volunteer at the school with autism.  They are very nice fellows.



Once again, this has no bearing on whether or not the OP can be a good photographer. The jump from "You have Asperger's" to "You lost your right to do this kind of photography if you can't talk to people easily because of your Asperger's" is ludicrous.


----------



## tecboy

limr said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The op was being more dominant photographer than being as Asperger.   I volunteer at the school with autism.  They are very nice fellows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, this has no bearing on whether or not the OP can be a good photographer. The jump from "You have Asperger's" to "You lost your right to do this kind of photography if you can't talk to people easily because of your Asperger's" is ludicrous.
Click to expand...


I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good.  I don't know why you are upset about this.


----------



## tecboy

Beside, Asperger or autism don't tell people to suck lemon.


----------



## chuasam

If I was a flea marker vendor and some guy kept hanging around with his camera, I would definitely be annoyed. I'd like like oh no here's that tosser waving his phallic replacement around again. You can spot them with their photo vests, backwards baseball cap and general lack of grooming. 

I would then wonder why he's photographing me working. Is he hiding behind the camera try to compensate for a lack of social skills? 

This is why small cameras rule. When I'm on vacation, I use a smart phone or a small compact camera. Never had a problem. Also, ask for permission before taking someone's photo; that's simple manners.


----------



## 480sparky

limr said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The op was being more dominant photographer than being as Asperger.   I volunteer at the school with autism.  They are very nice fellows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, this has no bearing on whether or not the OP can be a good photographer. The jump from "You have Asperger's" to "You lost your right to do this kind of photography if you can't talk to people easily because of your Asperger's" is ludicrous.
Click to expand...


What's really disturbing is here is someone who thinks it's HIS right to determine what SOMEONE ELSE'S RIGHTS should be.


----------



## DanOstergren

vintagesnaps said:


> Who owns the flea market? It's up to them if people are allowed to bring in cameras. You're photographing what seems to be the vendors' place of business since they presumably are paying to rent the space to sell merchandise. Sometimes businesses or stores have restrictions on their merchandise being photographed.
> 
> If you're there all day going around I think if I was a vendor I'd be wondering what you were doing and what you're going to do with that many photos.because that's a lot of time to spend taking pictures. I've done sports and events; it doesn't take all that long to photograph an event. If I'm taking pictures just for my own personal use at a festival or event I doubt I'd be there all day; if I was working a day long event I don't think I'd be taking pictures all day either. It seems like an excessive amount of time the way you describe it.
> 
> Obviously even if cameras are allowed by the flea market management, you seem to be coming across as an annoyance to the vendors. Maybe it's the amount of time you're there, maybe it's just too much for them feeling like they're constantly being photographed while they're trying to work. From the way you described it I could see how you might be getting on their nerves. You might need to rethink what you're doing and how it's coming across to them since they don't exactly seem receptive to your presence. Whether it's taking photos or watching or staring I think that gets uncomfortable after awhile. Would you want someone to do that to you? Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to, especially if it's to the point of getting to be too much.


Absolutely no excuse for anyone to start throwing rocks at a photographer. Besides, encounter one, the police told him it was ok for him to be there taking photos.


----------



## chuasam

DanOstergren said:


> Absolutely no excuse for anyone to start throwing rocks at a photographer. Besides, encounter one, the police told him it was ok for him to be there taking photos.


there's legality and there's manners.
the police won't stop you from wildly flatulating in a crowded restaurant but the establishment might take offence to it. 

if the flea market vendor did not like him taking pictures, he should comply and move along. As I said: this isn't some ground breaking news story.


----------



## limr

tecboy said:


> I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good.  I don't know why you are upset about this.



No, you said...



tecboy said:


> If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.



And I'm not upset but just calling you out on your bs.


----------



## Gary A.

smoke665 said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here I am about to be arrested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back in my early newspaper days I spent a couple hours in jail because I refused to turn off a tape recorder at an open public city council meeting. The recording was brought on by certain members of the Council saying things at the meetings then denying them when I reported it in my column. All charges were quickly dropped, and my report on the incident caused major ripples in the community which ultimately changed the Council. The jail I might add was reminiscent of Mayberry, so my stay was not overly uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

I've never spent anytime jailed in the US.  But in other countries it is almost routine ... like a rite of passage ... for security forces to pummel the press, crack a rib, bloody them up a bit, then break or steal their stuff then toss them away is some prison with no address.  I thank the Lord that our government has the resources and the conviction to intervene and spring the media from arbitrary incarcerations.


----------



## tecboy

limr said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good.  I don't know why you are upset about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you said...
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I'm not upset but just calling you out on your bs.
Click to expand...


What is your point?  The op couldn't handle the people and the police at the flea market.  If he doesn't learn from it, he will lose his privilege at the flea market.


----------



## smoke665

Gary A. said:


> I've never spent anytime jailed in the US. But in other countries it is almost routine ... like a rite of passage ...



Nothing quite so scary for me. I had known all of them on the council all my life, and the police chief was a close friend, so I wasn't all that concerned. However, I did prove my point that they couldn't say things in the heat of the moment and then try to deny it later.


----------



## rescue341

I never expected this to be a thread so much about my autism. I only mentioned it in my post becuase I was saying I like the ideal of trying to become part of the flea market and interacting with people im going to try the ideal despite some diffcultys i have. To the joker guy in your work with kids with autism what offten happens when you invade what they perseve as there space. Im sure most of them will shutdown and become defensive. So think about this with me for a second. Im walking around the flea market with my headphones in takeing pictures of people and trying to remain seprate from them becuase thats how im comfortable. Now someone comes up to me yelling or touches me or throws rocks at me. What do you think my automatic response will be. Im going to dig my heels in and defend "my space". My perfect day of taking photos is not haveing to talk to anyone. You think becuase you know some aspies you get to tell me I dont have a disorder that i have delt with my whole life. you sir can go suck a lemon. Oh im sorry people with autism cant say that can they.

on to more light hearted things heres a photo I got at the flea market ill post more below the site is telling my the upload is to big when i try to select more then one photo


----------



## rescue341

tecboy said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good.  I don't know why you are upset about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you said...
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I'm not upset but just calling you out on your bs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your point?  The op couldn't handle the people and the police at the flea market.  If he doesn't learn from it, he will lose his privilege at the flea market.
Click to expand...


I wont be loseing the abilty to go there the land is owned by the county To qoute the sherrif today " It is your right to be there your not breaking any laws by taking pictures. They cant kick you out any more then they could the snow cone vendor. There is a bit o a grey area about going inside vendors stalls where they do rent those spaces but from what ive seen you pretty well stick to the walk ways anyways so thats not a problem"


----------



## rescue341




----------



## smoke665

limr said:


> Do you understand what it's like to have Asperger's



Actually we do, as our oldest grandson was diagnosed at an early age. Left untreated he likely would have been a royal pain, but thanks to early intervention and counseling in dealing with it, he manages quite well without medication. One thing I will note, is that he was never given "special" consideration because of it. Asperger is a treatable condition, not a life definition.


----------



## limr

smoke665 said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand what it's like to have Asperger's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually we do, as our oldest grandson was diagnosed at an early age. Left untreated he likely would have been a royal pain, but thanks to early intervention and counseling in dealing with it, he manages quite well without medication. One thing I will note, is that he was never given "special" consideration because of it. Asperger is a treatable condition, not a life definition.
Click to expand...


Thank you, though I will add that I wasn't directing my comment at you but rather at the person who decided the OP couldn't _really_ have Asperger's because he can write a post on an Internet forum.

As for "treatable condition" vs "life definition", I will not comment because it can be a tricky subject, along a similar vein to the question of whether or not deafness is a disability or a culture (deaf vs Deaf... I can explain more if interested...), and I'm not in a position to speak for anyone else about how they would define it for themselves.

I'm on my phone at the moment and can't stand to type much more on this tiny keyboard, so I'm going to link and quote for some explanation of what I'm talking about:

Autism rights movement - Wikipedia

" The *autism rights movement* (*ARM*), also known as the *autistic culture movement*, is a social movement within the neurodiversity and disability rights movements that encourages autistic people, their caregivers and society to adopt a position of neurodiversity, accepting autism as a variation in functioning rather than a disorder to be cured.[2] The ARM advocates a variety of goals including a greater acceptance of autistic behaviors;[3] therapies that teach autistic individuals coping skills rather than therapies focused on imitating behaviors of neurotypical peers;[4] the creation of social networks and events that allow autistic people to socialize on their own terms;[5] and the recognition of the autistic community as a minority group.[6]"


----------



## rescue341

smoke665 said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand what it's like to have Asperger's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually we do, as our oldest grandson was diagnosed at an early age. Left untreated he likely would have been a royal pain, but thanks to early intervention and counseling in dealing with it, he manages quite well without medication. One thing I will note, is that he was never given "special" consideration because of it. Asperger is a treatable condition, not a life definition.
Click to expand...


there is a huge difference in seeing it from the outside. compared to experiencing it for you self. I'm happy your grandson is doing well but you dont get to come tell me about the spectrum simply because you know someone whos on it. Untill you know the frustration of missing the most basic soical ques and always feeling like a idoit or the anxety that drives you to block out the world as you walk by everyone at college. the fear that keeps you looking down trying to imagine they arent there untill you are riducled and picked on your entire life then you dont get to tell me anything about autism to qoute bane You merely adopted the autism I was born in to it

Dont get me wrong I know your grandson autism has likly had a huge effect on your life and im not dimmising that all im saying is regradless of your person experince unless you have autism you cant really understand it. all you can see is your grandson functioning "normaly" in the world you. its like if you had painfull sores all over you body you can bandage them up so outwardly the look fine but your still fighting painfull sores


----------



## pendennis

Our oldest son is Autistic, with severe Asperger's Syndrome.  While the APA has dropped the separate classification of Asperger's withing the Autism spectrum, it's still a huge challenge, even after 45 years.

He was born in 1972, at a time when Asperger's diagnosis was gathering dust on the shelf of an obscure Austrian psychologist, and Autism was "Rain Man".  In fact, our son wasn't diagnosed with autism until 1989, in his junior year of high school; and he wasn't diagnosed with Asperger's until 2007, at the time he had a complete relapse of his progress with Autism.

Until Autism was diagnosed as a spectrum disorder, children like my son were diagnosed with "unknown behavioral disturbances, with no apparent cause" (the exact quote of a child psychologist).

People with Autism and Asperger's are always in danger of a relapse, even with psychological intervention, therapy, and a home life which keeps him focused.

*RESCUE341* is observing his Asperger's from inside, a horrible place to try and figure out just where the problem is, and what happens when things go sideways.  Our son is aware of his diagnosis, understands and can discuss Asperger's and Autism, but understanding the diagnosis and taking corrective action are nearly impossible to do.  The possibility of lapsing into near non-treatment.  We constantly reinforce proper social interaction, but it will never "stick".  And, expecting strangers to understand Asperger's is akin to getting folks to understand astrophysical "String Theory".  There are too many people out there who still believe that Autistics should act like Dustin Hoffman counting his toothpicks, and needing to watch Judge Wapner daily.


----------



## smoke665

@rescue341 I wasn't commenting on you but replying to a question posed by limr. I wouldn't presume to know the severity of problems you deal with as no two individuals are alike. Our grandson is currently 16 years old, and unless you knew his background would never know. (a lot different than his early years). At the time he was diagnosed, Asperger was often misdiagnosed, as a form of ADD, with Adderall being prescribed. Fortunately his mother was relentless in finding out what was actually wrong. She also encouraged him to always step out of his comfort zone and didn't give him the opportunity to shrink away. Among other things he has been on a debate team for several years, now and has become very accomplished at public speaking. If you haven't sought help for the condition, I would suggest you do, as there are many resources out there now. If you are then I wish you success in your journey.


----------



## rescue341

smoke665 said:


> @rescue341 I wasn't commenting on you but replying to a question posed by limr. I wouldn't presume to know the severity of problems you deal with as no two individuals are alike. Our grandson is currently 16 years old, and unless you knew his background would never know. (a lot different than his early years). At the time he was diagnosed, Asperger was often misdiagnosed, as a form of ADD, with Adderall being prescribed. Fortunately his mother was relentless in finding out what was actually wrong. She also encouraged him to always step out of his comfort zone and didn't give him the opportunity to shrink away. Among other things he has been on a debate team for several years, now and has become very accomplished at public speaking. If you haven't sought help for the condition, I would suggest you do, as there are many resources out there now. If you are then I wish you succ



I'm very sorry then I misunderstood. The way i orginaly took your post was wrong. I'm very happy your grandson is doing great. I do get limted treatment I say limted becuase the only source of counsolling we are able to afford in the area is the local hospitals community consoluer. Who despite her best intentions I dont think is very capable of helping much. my girlfriend also suffers from asbergers so we find confidence and friendship in eachother and just kind of deal with the world as it comes for the time being


----------



## smoke665

rescue341 said:


> unless you have autism you cant really understand it.



No more than I understand how my youngest son feels on inside (100% disabled Vet with PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury), I only see how it affects his life,  but I'll tell you the same thing I tell him every day. You have no choice but to learn to deal with it on some level, because it will be with you the rest of your life. Sadly many Vets with similar issues can't, and take their own life. Those that do learn, don't live happily ever after either, but there are times when they have happy moments. So live for the happy moments don't dwell on the bad, life's to short.

Edit: Sorry didn't see your last post. Glad you are seeking help, don't stop, don't give up. And you're right sometimes the help can be slim. Fortunately our son has resources through the VA that have helped him tremendously.


----------



## DanOstergren

chuasam said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely no excuse for anyone to start throwing rocks at a photographer. Besides, encounter one, the police told him it was ok for him to be there taking photos.
> 
> 
> 
> there's legality and there's manners.
> the police won't stop you from wildly flatulating in a crowded restaurant but the establishment might take offence to it.
> 
> if the flea market vendor did not like him taking pictures, he should comply and move along. As I said: this isn't some ground breaking news story.
Click to expand...

I still don't think throwing rocks at people or putting your hands on them because you think they shouldn't be taking photos of you or in a certain place such as a flea market is ever ok.


----------



## DanOstergren

rescue341 said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> limr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good.  I don't know why you are upset about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you said...
> 
> 
> 
> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I'm not upset but just calling you out on your bs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your point?  The op couldn't handle the people and the police at the flea market.  If he doesn't learn from it, he will lose his privilege at the flea market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wont be loseing the abilty to go there the land is owned by the county To qoute the sherrif today " It is your right to be there your not breaking any laws by taking pictures. They cant kick you out any more then they could the snow cone vendor. There is a bit o a grey area about going inside vendors stalls where they do rent those spaces but from what ive seen you pretty well stick to the walk ways anyways so thats not a problem"
Click to expand...

Really glad you were able to get this clarification from the sheriff. Did he point you to any resources you could use to prove the legality of what you're doing? I've seen cops try kicking skaters out of public areas, only to have the skater pull out proof that they can legally be there, forcing the officer to leave them alone. They recorded the interaction on their phone for extra measure as well. Keep a phone that can record video on you, and be safe! There is absolutely no excuse for someone to throw _anything_ at you or to put their hands on you, especially in this situation.


----------



## vintagesnaps

Early Intervention is what I did for 20+ years. I think autism to me seems treatable, and probably most of us working with kids are trying for helping them and their families with whatever challenges they may experience so they can have the best quality of life possible. What came to mind to me was one little girl who was maybe two, and came in the room with her head down and her hair hanging over her face and walked around the room facing the wall. After a few months she had changed so much, not just from participating in our program but with her parents helping her develop, and it was good to see her smiling and certainly she seemed much happier and was a different child from who I first saw.

That Wiki link Leo is one I haven't run across before and a quick search didn't come up with any reputable or medical sources I'm familiar with but I'm curious to do some more looking. (Temple Grandin would be someone to look up to get one person's experience on having autism.)

Anyway I didn't remember all the specifics of this situation since this has gotten to be a long one so I went back and reread it. It's good Rescue341 that you have an appointment to go in and talk to someone at the police station. It's unacceptable for someone to have thrown rocks at you so it would probably be good to follow up on what happened.

Seems like you'll need to figure out how to make going to the flea market a better experience for you. People who are vendors or regulars there can't read your mind - they have no way of knowing you're uncomfortable in social settings or why; they don't know why you keep walking around taking pictures but don't seem to talk to people or shop. If I was working a booth there and some guy did that I think it would make me uncomfortable and I would be wondering what he was up to if I didn't know the person.

You talked about how it is for you, walking around with headphones on etc. but you have apparently had some conversations with some of the people at the flea market. What about if you get a nice picture of one of their booths maybe offer them a look at it? or offer a small print. If you get to know even just a few of them maybe that will lead to some of the vendors becoming familiar with who you are so they might get to feeling more comfortable with you. I don't think people often get what photographers are doing anyway. 

If there are some people there you've talked to already, that could be a starting point. Maybe you need to think about challenging yourself just to even say hi or nod to people occasionally. You don't have to have long conversations or talk to everybody. 

And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well. Having done events I think what he was talking about was that taking photos at events where there are a lot of people means a certain amount of interacting with people. Maybe not a lot, it depends, but if you can figure out how to enjoy it the best way for you and still find a way to try to help others understand you a little that might be worth thinking about.


----------



## smoke665

Getting back to the OP, regardless of any rights, or issues of the OP, there's another consideration in today's world. Whether we want to accept it or not, people are a lot more aware of their surroundings and suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, thanks to continued terrorist attacks around the world. If you look out of place in a public place, (and taking random pictures for no reason is going to be a flag) you're not going to get a warm reception, especially if you don't explain yourself or relate in any way to the people there. Doesn't mean that the people there are mean or hateful, it's just the way it is. I didn't grow up in a world where I had to be suspicious of others, but I find myself doing it now when I'm out in a crowd.


----------



## tecboy

vintagesnaps said:


> And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well.



Well, I'm sorry I wasn't clear about what I said.  It doesn't matter if you are Asperger, autism, or any disability, anyone has the right to photograph.  However, you have to be respectful to others and able to diffuse confrontation.  Go volunteer at the nonprofit organization. Ask one photographer if you can hang around the whole time.  You will feel comfortable this way.  Take a break from flea market for about a month until the people and police will forget about the situation.  When you do come back to the flea market, have a friend who is also a photographer with you.  If you have issue again with the people and police, a least a friend or a photographer can back you up.


----------



## Gary A.

smoke665 said:


> Getting back to the OP, regardless of any rights, or issues of the OP, there's another consideration in today's world. Whether we want to accept it or not, people are a lot more aware of their surroundings and suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, thanks to continued terrorist attacks around the world. If you look out of place in a public place, (and taking random pictures for no reason is going to be a flag) you're not going to get a warm reception, especially if you don't explain yourself or relate in any way to the people there. Doesn't mean that the people there are mean or hateful, it's just the way it is. I didn't grow up in a world where I had to be suspicious of others, but I find myself doing it now when I'm out in a crowd.


Rant-

I know I and I think most of us here, are quite full up with people acting upon what they desire as opposed to acting out according to law and social standards.  It is fine to be suspicious of others, as it is fine to think most anything one wants to think about, it is the acting out of said thoughts that is disturbing and in many cases wrong ethically and lawfully.

What really is especially irritating is security forces seeing a big camera and assuming you are a terrorist.  Common sense dictates that one should be suspicious of those with tiny cameras, as a person planning ill will would most likely work covertly. With Google Earth (and other similar apps), and easy public access to the actual engineering drawings of public buildings, walking around with a dSLR seems a waste of time and secrecy.

-End of Rant-

Ignorance should temper one's action ... but in today's world ignorance emboldens people.

@rescue341: I am glad the appointment with the Sheriff went well. Usually such meetings start and end confrontationally with the Sheriff defending the actions of his/her Deputy/Officer.  Even though I have a nephew with Asperger and a daughter who is a therapist for autism kids/young adults, I have very little insight into your world.  It seems that you are overcoming some/many/most of its symptoms and adjusting accordingly to stay within the norms of our society. Most of us would have walked away from the situation and not stand our ground or contacted the authorities for a review of the deputy's actions.  It is people like you, people who stand up for what is right, that allows other photographers behind you to enjoy our freedoms. For that I thank you ... everyday our freedoms seem to erode bit-by-bit. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin. 

Thank you for showing all of us non-Asperger photographers how to individually defend a basic Constitutional right.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary

PS- @rescue341: Welcome to the forum. 
G

PPS- I like lemons.
G


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## Gary A.

rescue341 said:


> I never expected this to be a thread so much about my autism. I only mentioned it in my post becuase I was saying I like the ideal of trying to become part of the flea market and interacting with people im going to try the ideal despite some diffcultys i have. To the joker guy in your work with kids with autism what offten happens when you invade what they perseve as there space. Im sure most of them will shutdown and become defensive. So think about this with me for a second. Im walking around the flea market with my headphones in takeing pictures of people and trying to remain seprate from them becuase thats how im comfortable. Now someone comes up to me yelling or touches me or throws rocks at me. What do you think my automatic response will be. Im going to dig my heels in and defend "my space". My perfect day of taking photos is not haveing to talk to anyone. You think becuase you know some aspies you get to tell me I dont have a disorder that i have delt with my whole life. you sir can go suck a lemon. Oh im sorry people with autism cant say that can they.
> 
> on to more light hearted things heres a photo I got at the flea market ill post more below the site is telling my the upload is to big when i try to select more then one photoView attachment 142300


A bit overly contrast with awkward framing.  The second image is much nicer technically and content-wise it has good impact.


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## pendennis

vintagesnaps said:


> Early Intervention is what I did for 20+ years. I think autism to me seems treatable, and probably most of us working with kids are trying for helping them and their families with whatever challenges they may experience so they can have the best quality of life possible. What came to mind to me was one little girl who was maybe two, and came in the room with her head down and her hair hanging over her face and walked around the room facing the wall. After a few months she had changed so much, not just from participating in our program but with her parents helping her develop, and it was good to see her smiling and certainly she seemed much happier and was a different child from who I first saw.
> 
> That Wiki link Leo is one I haven't run across before and a quick search didn't come up with any reputable or medical sources I'm familiar with but I'm curious to do some more looking. (Temple Grandin would be someone to look up to get one person's experience on having autism.)
> 
> Anyway I didn't remember all the specifics of this situation since this has gotten to be a long one so I went back and reread it. It's good Rescue341 that you have an appointment to go in and talk to someone at the police station. It's unacceptable for someone to have thrown rocks at you so it would probably be good to follow up on what happened.
> 
> Seems like you'll need to figure out how to make going to the flea market a better experience for you. People who are vendors or regulars there can't read your mind - they have no way of knowing you're uncomfortable in social settings or why; they don't know why you keep walking around taking pictures but don't seem to talk to people or shop. If I was working a booth there and some guy did that I think it would make me uncomfortable and I would be wondering what he was up to if I didn't know the person.
> 
> You talked about how it is for you, walking around with headphones on etc. but you have apparently had some conversations with some of the people at the flea market. What about if you get a nice picture of one of their booths maybe offer them a look at it? or offer a small print. If you get to know even just a few of them maybe that will lead to some of the vendors becoming familiar with who you are so they might get to feeling more comfortable with you. I don't think people often get what photographers are doing anyway.
> 
> If there are some people there you've talked to already, that could be a starting point. Maybe you need to think about challenging yourself just to even say hi or nod to people occasionally. You don't have to have long conversations or talk to everybody.
> 
> And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well. Having done events I think what he was talking about was that taking photos at events where there are a lot of people means a certain amount of interacting with people. Maybe not a lot, it depends, but if you can figure out how to enjoy it the best way for you and still find a way to try to help others understand you a little that might be worth thinking about.



As of now, Autism doesn't have any permanent treatment.  Psychologists and counselors can only treat the symptoms, and recommend behavior modification; and this is temporary, at best.

Temporary doesn't necessarily mean a few days, weeks, or even months.  But, eventually Autistics have a relapse, because the modifications don't change the root cause behavior in the patient.  How severed the relapse is, depends on the amount of time lapsed if counseling has ceased, how much support the autistic gets (familial, social network, etc.), and what life style the autistic has.

Our son lived apart from us in a small town, with very little in the way of support.  A different job took him even further away from our support.  He eventually returned home to our area, sharing an apartment with his younger brother.  The relapse was near total, and he nearly turned in completely on himself.  It's taken almost ten years of counseling and treatment to get him to a point where he's making progress toward living on his own.

Autistics are also faced with external stimuli which compound the inward facing problem many Autistics face.  This includes television, audio and visual stimuli, and overexposure to things like computers and games.

They also have problems with self-esteem, and confidence in their talents and abilities.  And that's at the mild end of the spectrum.  Asperger's compounds the difficulties.

Our last discussion with a psychologist revealed that there is no real "cure", just constant reinforcement of "good" behavior cues.


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