# another gear question



## lorigon27 (Nov 22, 2011)

Im still pretty new to photography, but looking to make extra income with it.
I have a canon T2i with 18-55mm, 1.8  50mm, and 55-250 lens.
I need to know what kind of lighting i need for indoor portrait photo's and a good number for the amount of backdrop's.
i already have 2 constant lights and umbrella's (i forgot the wattage)
basically lookin for somebody to fill out my wishlist.    1000$ is about what ive deemed ok to spend
what would you buy with it if you were starting out?????
sorry again if this is in wrong thread or is repeated all the time.
thanks in advance!!!                 and also maybe recommend a book or two on introduction to studio photography and lighting


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## rdzmzda (Nov 23, 2011)

Get a 580ex ii and a 430ex ii there you go 1k spent and have two great tools  that was easy lol....honestly 1k if you are wanting brand new will not get you that far and you will have a lot more invested in this way before you make money out of it. I would recommend learning and loving photography first before you "plan" to make money of it.  With that being said the above flashes are great however expensive. I would still say you definitely need a flash might look into the older models of the above mentioned or an off brand will relieve some of your funds for other places.  I can not really answer your backdrops I hate backdrops and avoid using at all costs make your own (i.e. take a white wall shine a light through some colored water is fun but there are cheaper and IMHO much more pleasant things than backdrops)  You definitely should look into a softbox to fit onto your lights I assume they are tungsten bulbs? So then get gels for your flash if not your colors will never be right. Get a 5 in 1 or 6 or whatever dang number they are up to in reflectors they are handy. Quite honestly a lot of the stuff that you spend money on props modifiers etc you can make yourself and save a lot of money on and would splurge on the more important lighting equipment itself.  As far as books you must read understanding exposure, and then since you said you were new I would say I enjoyed the photographers eye.  Moving then onto any book you can find that shows the picture and the lighting setup they have you can learn a lot from that.  As a side note congrats your are up to probably over 100 dollars on just those three books and now only have 900 bucks to spend. As far as lens go if you are doing indoor portrait I would say use the 50 and scrap the other two as they were kit lens right? and you bought the 50?  The 50 everyone has its a goto lens when needed I do not know much about the other two just guessing though that not the best canon has to offer by any means. I hope this helps I know it is lengthy and poorly worded etc etc but its 2am and as stated this question has been answered once or twice.


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

If I or someone I personally know were just starting out on a limited budget and were still learning how to light, I guess my advice would be this:

Just get yourself a Cowboy Studio Kit for under $500 and you're well on your way with most everything you could need to get started, from lights and stands to modifiers and triggers.  It's about the biggest bang for the buck you can find.

Yes, there's a good chance you'll eventually outgrow it and want much better studio gear later if you stick with studio portraiture, but the great gear you may eventually want costs serious money, and you can replace or supplement it piece by piece if you find that you're actually being limited by anything in your starter kit, if and when that actually happens.  That might not be for years, or it might not be ever, depending on your needs and your style as it develops.

As for backdrops, you need a white, a black, and maybe a gray.  With those and a pack of full size gels, some gaffers tape (which has about a million uses around the studio) or a gel holder or two, you can have any/every color under the sun for your backdrop, at will - you can even get creative and do multi-colors.  With some creative use of objects between them and the lights, you can have have any number of patterns on them as well.  Try all kinds of stuff, like glasses of water, especially glasses or other containers that have irregular shapped glass, plants, lacey cloth or netting, bubble wrap, irregular ripped strips of toilet paper hung between your light source and your backdrop, etc.  The possibilities are endless.   You can even use your plain backgrounds to drop in digital backgrounds later in photoshop, and those digital backgrounds are cheap too.

You didn't mention a tripod, but if you don't have one, get one.

Also, you'll want/need a couple of 5 in 1 reflector/diffuser/flag kits, and I recommend the stands and arms to hold them if you don't want to be fumbling about with trying to position them and keep them in place.  Snoots can be made from cardboard boxes yourself with minimal time and effort.  Cover them in black gaffers tape to look professional to your clients.  Grids can come in handy too, and can be made as a DIY project out of coroplast, but you can find them fairly inexpensively these days, so it's hardly worth the time to DIY them yourself anymore.

As for books, "Understanding Exposure", "Light, Science and Magic" and "The Photographers Eye" are standards.  Beyond that, I recommend Joe McNally's "Hot Shoe Diaries" and "The Moment It Clicks" for some great ideas on how to use lights in very easy but creative ways, especially for photographing people.  A good, down-to-Earth resource on the net for learning to light from the very most basic starting place on up to more advanced methods is The Strobist Blog, and you can't beat the price - it's free.  Start at Lighting 101 and go from there.

The lenses you have now are just fine for starting out.  Don't be bamboozled by trash talk about kit lenses.  They may not be the top of the line, but they're not junk either.  With proper composition so that you have little or no cropping before printing, and care when focusing and shooting to avoid camera shake blur, they'll produce images that are just fine.  Use them, use them well, and don't worry about getting better lenses until the ones you have actually limit you in some way.  Later on, if you actually stick with this and find a NEED for better lenses, you can spend a thousand dollars plus on a professional quality portrait lens that will shoot at f/1.2, then stop it down to f/4.5-f/8 anyway so that your subjects' ears and noses will be in focus, along with their eyes.  By that time, you'll probably be looking for a full-frame camera as well, so start saving your pennies.


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## rdzmzda (Nov 23, 2011)

lol I do not think buckster liked my advice 
lol but he expanded on a lot of what I was saying, and he is right you can replace the lights as needed etc. I was not trying to bash the lens like I said I know nothing about them, but more then likely you will like and get better results from the 50.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 23, 2011)

rdzmzda said:


> Get a 580ex ii and a 430ex ii there you go 1k spent and have two great tools  that was easy lol....honestly 1k if you are wanting brand new will not get you that far and you will have a lot more invested in this way before you make money out of it.


 
Your advice sucks. If you're going to be shooting strictly indoor portraiture and don't need do go where you're not going to have power, speedlights aren't going to be your best bet. You can get three 150w/s adorama Flash Point mono lights for $300 and although I haven't personally used them, a lot of people that have like them. You can also go with Alien Bees and get three 160w/s B400 monolights. You can find a lot of other kits, new or used, that will leave enough money to buy a backdrop stand and some backdrops.



Buckster said:


> If I or someone I personally know were just starting out on a limited budget and were still learning how to light, I guess my advice would be this:
> 
> Just get yourself a Cowboy Studio Kit for under $500 and you're well on your way with most everything you could need to get started, from lights and stands to modifiers and triggers.  It's about the biggest bang for the buck you can find.
> 
> ...



Sorry Buckster, but I have to check "strongly disagree" to your Cowboy Studio advice. They have a* one month* warranty on their strobes, which is just plain rediculous. I've even seen a post where a purchaser's light went up in flames just out of the 30 day warrany and the company refused to do anything about it. IT CAUGHT FIRE! But since is was two or three months old, they couldn't help them. They also have lousy customer service and they were also infringing on the Strobist trademark to try and sell gear. If you look on their website, you'll notice the word "Strobist" doesn't appear anywhere where as their kits used to be called "Strobist Kits".

Any company that doesn't have faith in their products, doesn't believe in good customer service, and is a photography company that commits what is basically the act of one photographer using another photographer's photos without permissions, is a terrible company in my book.


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## rdzmzda (Nov 23, 2011)

Ok maybe in my head it sounded like I was getting my sarcasm across better I was not saying that was an ideal setup it was sarcasm all I was simply trying to say was that for the price he wanted to spend he was not going to get a "wishlist". He also was not going to just spend a little bit of money and then poof all of a sudden he has a flourishing business (usually).  Jesus no wonder people leave these questions alone, and yes I did mention getting at least a flash so he has a better option to go outside since I doubt everyone he comes across is going to want to go studio everytime.


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## Overread (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Sorry Buckster, but I have to check "strongly disagree" to your Cowboy Studio advice. They have a* one month* warranty on their strobes, which is just plain rediculous.



Is that even legal? 
I know there are differences, but I always assumed that the USA had the similar government imposed limit of at least 1 years warranty on any product.


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## rdzmzda (Nov 23, 2011)

Overread said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Buckster, but I have to check "strongly disagree" to your Cowboy Studio advice. They have a* one month* warranty on their strobes, which is just plain rediculous.
> ...



He is slightly mistaken taken from their site

Most of our products have a 1 year warranty from the time of purchase. Exceptions are:
and it lists the 250 and 150w lamps and then the bulbs are only warranted for 30 days


HAHA government imposed limit is there such a thing? Hmmmm, correction I guess there is just not on themselves I mean why actually govern yourself.


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## tirediron (Nov 23, 2011)

First of all, if you are going to buy cheap, DON'T buy Cowboy Studio; it gives junk a bad name.  Consider Adormama's Flashpoint series.  Very reasonably priced, and while still entry-level gear, it's several steps of quality higher than Cowboy Studio.

That said, don't buy anything just yet.  Right now, you think you want to use photography to make some extra income.  Fair enough; it's a LOT harder than most people think, and requires a lot more than a few lights.  Your $1000 budget probably won't even cover the business license(s) and insurance you require, never mind equipment.  What I would suggest is spend some time (a LOT of time) at the Strobist Blog.  This is a great place to learn the basics of lighting and off-camera flash work.  

Read up on composition and search terms such as "Golden mean", and beat up your family and friends, and make them pose for you.  Post images here for critique, and work to improve.  I would look for a local camera club that you can join to gain experience as well.  Do this for at least six months, and find out if you even want to do this after that.  If you still do, by then, you should have enough knowledge to know what gear you need.


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## bazooka (Nov 23, 2011)

For $1000 you can get a killer 3 light speedlight setup if you want to go the mobile battery-operated route.  3 LP160's for less than $500, lots of cash left over for cybersync radio's, light stands, modifiers.... mpex.com.


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## rdzmzda (Nov 23, 2011)

tirediron said:


> That said, don't buy anything just yet.  Right now, you think you want to use photography to make some extra income.  Fair enough; it's a LOT harder than most people think, and requires a lot more than a few lights.  Your $1000 budget probably won't even cover the business license(s) and insurance you require, never mind equipment.  What I would suggest is spend some time (a LOT of time) at the Strobist Blog.  This is a great place to learn the basics of lighting and off-camera flash work.
> 
> Read up on composition and search terms such as "Golden mean", and beat up your family and friends, and make them pose for you.  Post images here for critique, and work to improve.  I would look for a local camera club that you can join to gain experience as well.  Do this for at least six months, and find out if you even want to do this after that.  If you still do, by then, you should have enough knowledge to know what gear you need.



Much better way of stating what I was sarcastically hinting at  Anyhow I am sure we can all fight over whats better for the money etc and a lot of it comes down to the time old tale of chevy vs ford, nikon vs canon, vanilla vs chocolate....I think you get what I am saying.  IMHO and I would think that a lot of others would agree, and what I poorly hinted too originally (It was 2 am I rambled).  For 1k dollars you are not going to find "Good wishlist" quality items AND start off in photography AND start a business AND make money.  Quite honestly I probably have 500 dollars invested in books and movies alone (I am a bit overboard on this probably though).  Then not to mention another 250 in memory cards.  Add 250 for a quality tripod and head, and you are already at the 1k mark.  As stated above you have licensing and insurance and...


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## kundalini (Nov 23, 2011)

Apart from the Cowboy Studio stuff, Buckster is on to something. OP, read his comments again.


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Sorry Buckster, but I have to check "strongly disagree" to your Cowboy Studio advice.


No problem.  I was certain that some folks would.  I'll stick with it though.



Village Idiot said:


> They have a* one month* warranty on their strobes, which is just plain rediculous.


According to their web site, it's one year for everything except bulbs and flash tubes.



Village Idiot said:


> I've even seen a post where a purchaser's light went up in flames just out of the 30 day warrany and the company refused to do anything about it. IT CAUGHT FIRE! But since is was two or three months old, they couldn't help them.


 Since even the biggest name manufacturers have occasional lemons, I don't doubt that it's a possibility.  As for them doing nothing about it, I have only your word, which comes from someone else's word, and neither of us have a way to know if there are extenuating circumstances that actually prevented them from honoring the warrantee.  What I can say is this: I've read posts online from folks who had their problems resolved by CBS without a problem as well, including someone who said the flash tube was broken upon arrival, sent them a photo of a broken tube, and they promptly sent him a new one.  Considering how many units they sell, I don't see a lot of complaints on them or their products or service.  Again, they're not selling the top quality stuff, but for the price point, it's hard to beat for people just starting out on a tight budget.



Village Idiot said:


> They also have lousy customer service


See above.  Are you speaking from first hand experience?  You know, you can look at darn near any product made by anyone that Amazon sells, and find reviews from people saying that the product sucks and the customer service sucks.  But look at the ratios of positive vs. negative for a good idea of what to expect.



Village Idiot said:


> and they were also infringing on the Strobist trademark to try and sell gear. If you look on their website, you'll notice the word "Strobist" doesn't appear anywhere where as their kits used to be called "Strobist Kits".


That was wrong of them, but that's between them and David Hobby.  It has nothing to do with their products, service or price point.



Village Idiot said:


> Any company that doesn't have faith in their products, doesn't believe in good customer service, and is a photography company that commits what is basically the act of one photographer using another photographer's photos without permissions, is a terrible company in my book.


Whatever you say man.  I guess you don't shop at Walmart Either?  Well, I find that commendable, and I applaud your willingness to pay more for essentially the same products somewhere else, in order to punish companies that don't meet your standards of excellence.  I wish I could claim the same high ground, but in all honesty, I usually can't.

It's all good though.  To each his own.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Any company that doesn't have faith in their products, doesn't believe in good customer service, and is a photography company that commits what is basically the act of one photographer using another photographer's photos without permissions, is a terrible company in my book.


Whatever you say man.*  I guess you don't shop at Walmart Either?*  Well, I find that commendable, and I applaud your willingness to pay more for essentially the same products somewhere else, in order to punish companies that don't meet your standards of excellence.  I wish I could claim the same high ground, but in all honesty, I usually can't.

It's all good though.  To each his own.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for him but I don't. Wal-Mart SUX! Target FTW


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## Village Idiot (Nov 23, 2011)

Buckster said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Buckster, but I have to check "strongly disagree" to your Cowboy Studio advice.
> ...



Not all better products cost more, but yes, if I had to choose between junk and something that was reliable but more expensive, I'd buy the better product. I do buy the better product. And you're telling me you enjoy supporting a company that's willing to try and use another photographer's name to sell their junk? That may be between CS and DH, but that shows me how they run their business and that they're all about a quick buck and not taking care of their customers.

I'll let the threads speak for themselves. Oh, and there's one about the crappy build of the lights as well.

Cowboy studio at DVinfo.net
Strobe lights, Speedlites, continuous lights?? HELP - Canon Digital Photography Forums
lol @ cowboy studio softbox - need some help - Canon Digital Photography Forums
Cowboy Studios Strobe Softbox - STAY AWAY - Canon Digital Photography Forums <-- a good read. I was wrong, it didn't catch fire, but it did blow up on him.
CowboyStudio - Allen, TX
Cowboy Studio??? www.cowboystudio.com???? Is it genuine? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-photo-gallery/134006-cowboy-studio.html
Cowboy Studio Softbox. - Page 2
http://www.amazon.com/Cowboystudio-4-Channel-Remote-Trigger-Receivers/product-reviews/B00363EZY0
filmersblog: Cracked: Cowboy Studio shoulder support
Cowboy Studio POOR BUSINESS PRACTICES
COWBOY STUDIO OCE3
Discussion Forums @ Nikonians - Stands, softboxes, beauty dishes from Cowboy Studio
Reseller Ratings: Cowboy Studio Reviews - cowboystudio.com Ratings at ResellerRatings 1 out of 6 reviews isn't bad, right?

This is from their CEO in response to a BBB complaint in the good read thread.


> As stated on our website, our strobe lights only carry a 30 Day warranty. This means that within the first 30 days that you have received it we will be more then happy to replace any defective or damaged lights.



Straight from the horse's mouth.

OP - Do you really want to chance it?


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Not all better products cost more, but yes, if I had to choose between junk and something that was reliable but more expensive, I'd buy the better product.


I'm saying for the price point of the Cowboy studio stuff, not comparing apples to oranges, as you appear to want to do.  Find the equivalent pieces of gear; X number of lights, modifiers, etc., etc., etc., and put the package together from any other vendor, and see what the price is.



Village Idiot said:


> And you're telling me you enjoy supporting a company that's willing to try and use another photographer's name to sell their junk?


Hold on while I check....   Hmmm... No, I don't see where I wrote that I enjoy supporting a company of any kind anywhere.  Could it be that you just read into things what you want?  That might help explain your one-sided view here...  Just sayin'...


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## kundalini (Nov 23, 2011)

How about a slight twist.......

I've had great customer service and support for lighting gear from Adorama, B&H, Paul C. Buff and my local shop.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 23, 2011)

Buckster said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Not all better products cost more, but yes, if I had to choose between junk and something that was reliable but more expensive, I'd buy the better product.
> ...



You said the infringement case is between CS and DH and has nothing to do with their products, service, and prices. It does. They're trying to use a popular brand to sell their junk. If you want to turn a blind eye from it and still give the company business, then I don't know what that is if it's not condoning it.

1 150w/s strobe for $99
FP320M Flashpoint II 320M, 150 Watt Second AC / DC Monolight Strobe.

2 lights with a real warranty and that probably won't blow up on you is worth paying the extra couple of dollars for two stands and modifiers. Plus Adorama has verifiably good customer service.


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

Here's another interesting take on it:

Amazon.com: CowboyStudio: Electronics

Check out the reviews.  You'll see the star ratings are pretty good right off the bat.  If the company and products are really as bad as some say, that's a pretty neat trick.

Looking at the history of posts about CBS gear on the forum here, it appears to be a mixed bag.  Some had good experiences, some bad.  Most are comments from folks who've never actually dealt with them, but still have very strong opinions for some reason.  Full disclaimer: I myself have never bought anything from them, but I have bought the same kind of Chinese gear from eBay.  We all know it's not great gear, but it's worked fine for me when I had a limited budget for gear, and I've used them in conjunction with much better gear that I later upgraded to for many years without a problem.  They still work fine.  Apparently, it's also worked fine for the vast majority of others who've bought and used it over the years, based on the Amazon ratings of it, despite the (possibly overblown) horror stories that almost always seem to be second or third hand hearsay.

In any case, I certainly didn't mean to start a Cowboy Studio war here just by mentioning the name.  In point of fact, buying from "Cowboy Studio" isn't anywhere near the issue I'm advocating; It's that in the OP's situation (starting out, still learning, limited budget), I think they should start off with the really seriously inexpensive Chinese gear to get going quickly and learn how to shape light with it.  That gear can be bought in "kits", and one of the most common sellers of those kits just happens to be Cowboy Studio.

Frankly, I think there's a bit of a snob factor involved as well on the furious pushback whenever certain hot-topic words pop up around here too.  This forum is a place where people claim they wouldn't be caught dead using "X", like it's a competition on having the best gear more for bragging rights than for getting the job done when snapping the shutter.  The place is full of disparaging remarks about any kind of gear or brand names you can think of.  I don't really get it, but then, I don't spend much time thinking about it either.  Some people are just really, really opinionated, I guess.  Whatever...

I take all those opinions with a grain of salt.  When something works, I use it.  If it works on the cheap, even better.

YMMV


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Village Idiot said:
> ...


You didn't say I condone it, and neither did I, you said I *ENJOY SUPPORTING it*, and that's simply not a true statement.  So, you're just making stuff up on the fly because you're all bent out of shape over this for some reason.  I don't get it.  What dog do you have in this fight to be all whipped up about it the way you obviously are?  What's the big deal here?  Did the CBS CEO beat your dog or something?



Village Idiot said:


> 1 150w/s strobe for $99
> FP320M Flashpoint II 320M, 150 Watt Second AC / DC Monolight Strobe.
> 
> 2 lights with a real warranty and that probably won't blow up on you is worth paying the extra couple of dollars for two stands and modifiers.


The Chinese gear likely won't blow up on you either.  Reality sucks, I know, but there it is.  Hundreds or possibly thousands of Amazon reviews - now go count how many said their gear "BLEW UP!!!! OMGZZZZZ!!!!!"  Dude, settle down.  Take a breath.  I don't know why you want it to seem so much worse than it apparently is, but try to get a grip.



Village Idiot said:


> Plus Adorama has verifiably good customer service.


So put a package together for the OP from Adorama.  4 lights, 4 stands, a backdrop stand, 2 backdrops, 3 light boxes, barn doors, etc., etc., etc., to equal the amount of gear/options in the CBS kit, and come in at under $500 the way they do, or as close as you can.  That would be helpful.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 23, 2011)

Buckster said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...



Hey man, if you like pointing people in the direction of a potentially problematic exchange that has a good number of sources to back it up, be my guest. We can't all be as helpful as you.

And looking back on earlier post, you're quick to jump to the defense of CS by trying to discredit everything I posted as hearsay. Even after I posted all the links with negative experiences and reviews you still don't seem to take any of that information in. You want more? Just Google "Cowboy Studios" with broke, poor service, or any other term that would describe their products and a ton of links will pop up.

The bottom line is this: how badly does the OP wish to gamble with their time and money.


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## Buckster (Nov 23, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Hey man, if you like pointing people in the direction of a potentially problematic exchange that has a good number of sources to back it up, be my guest. We can't all be as helpful as you.


Really?  You think that's what I like?  You think that's what I think I'm doing here?  You think, after reading my last post, that this is even ABOUT "Cowboy Studio"?  Again, you're just making stuff up when you make such claims on my behalf when I've never said any such thing.  That speaks to you and your integrity and what you have to say about others, and has no bearing on what I've *actually* said, nor does it detract from what I've *actually* said.



Village Idiot said:


> And looking back on earlier post, you're quick to jump to the defense of CS by trying to discredit everything I posted as hearsay.


I'm just noting that's what it is.  Hearsay is inevitably a game of telephone where, with each telling of the story, it gets more confused, outrageous, etc.  Whether that's the case with the stories you've been telling, there's no way to know, but it's a common thing with storytelling which is why it's not permissible in sworn testimony, and it's therefore worth mentioning when that's what it is.



Village Idiot said:


> Even after I posted all the links with negative experiences and reviews you still don't seem to take any of that information in. You want more? Just Google "Cowboy Studios" with broke, poor service, or any other term that would describe their products and a ton of links will pop up.


I took it in.  But I also note that for every horror story you can point to, we can point to even more satisfied customer stories on just Amazon alone.  I pointed that out with the link to Amazon for you and everyone else to look at to help us all understand the dynamic.  Nobody has to take my word for it that I heard from some guy on the intertubes that, "IT BLEW UP!!!!" or that "IT'S JUST AWESOME COOL!!!"  I have no claims to make either way nor on anyone else's behalf.  They can make their own.  I just read them, and take them with a grain of salt, as I clearly stated.

Again, it just doesn't matter all that much, I don't think, and it's certainly not worth getting all whipped out of shape about.  This isn't about winning or losing you know.  It's about trying to help someone get some answers and advice.  The OP now has plenty of information, including the bad _*AND*_ the good experiences of actual customers, in order to help make some decisions, and hopefully that's helpful.



Village Idiot said:


> The bottom line is this: how badly does the OP wish to gamble with their time and money.


See, I think the bottom line is this: how overblown is your ranting and raving when all those actual customers on Amazon are giving it 4+ out of 5 star rankings?  Something doesn't add up...


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## lorigon27 (Nov 24, 2011)

uumm wow

ok--sorry for not being more detailed.
i would like to make money in the future with a photo buisness, but what my goal for the time being is to aquire all the stuff i need and to get alot of xp with it, so that when the time comes for me to open shop  that i will be knowledgable and confident that i can put to print what i see in my head.
 that being said,  i do understand that it will take lots of time and hard work.  and i do love taking photos.

thanks for all the advise


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## Overread (Nov 29, 2011)

Village Idiot and Buckster take it to private messages or put each other on ignore, the argument between you stops in the thread.


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