# I've been reminded why I ditched Windows



## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

I decided that I wanted a Windows 7 machine.  I ditched Windows about 4 years ago and went to Mac.

But Windows 7 promised to be everything that Vista wasn't.  Intrigued, I dusted off my Dell 9100 Pentium D 3ghz 64bit system with 4 gigs of RAM which was retired to the closet about 3 weeks after installing Vista on it (Vista is the reason I went to Mac).

So I bought my shiny new copy of Windows 7 and raced home to upgrade my old Vista installation.  

I drop the disc in the drive and it won't boot from it.  Ok, no problem... I start Vista and double click on the drive to begin the install routine.  Of course I get some cryptic error saying my version of Vista isn't upgradable with my Windows 7 Pro software.  WTF?  

Frustrated, I call my buddy who works in IT.  He comes over.

After taking my machine apart, messing with the jumpers on the DVD drives (changing the master and slave) and making no progress... he whips out his thumb drive which is bootable and where he keeps various versions of OS's for work.

He boots from the thumb drive (after going into the BIOS and adding it to the boot order) and mysteriously it starts to read from the DVD drive while it's installing Windows 7.  He doesn't know why it did this, but we're happy all the same.

Wow, talk about a great user experience.  Typical Windows... that hasn't changed.

Next comes the installation of my work applications (Office).  That goes pretty smoothly until I launch Outlook.  It prompts me for an exchange server and mailbox name.  I enter it and it gives another cryptic error and closes.  Today I spent about an hour working with our corp IT to get it working.

Again... typical Windows.  That hasn't changed.

I try to find drivers for things like my Creative Labs Live! webcam... none are to be found for Windows 7.  It feels like Vista all over again.

I tried to install our corporate Cisco VPN client, of course that doesn't work with Widows 7 so I have to download some obscure open source VPN client that hobbles along in W7... but works.

Then I decide to hook up my ColorMunki and calibrate the monitor before I install my photo editing software.

Surprise... it recognizes the ColorMunki, then about halfway through the calibration it decides it can't find it.  I reboot, try it again, and now it won't find the ColorMunki at all.  I uninstall the software, disconnect the Munki, start over and finally it works... it gave some odd error while starting but I hit cancel and it continued on.  

Jesus.  What a f'in nightmare.  I am so used to not dealing with incompatibilities, cryptic errors and lack of drivers now that I've been using Mac's for a few years that I was ready to punch a hole in the wall.

Then I realized, it's the same crap I dealt with when using Windows 3, 95, 98, XP, Vista and now W7.  Little has changed.

I think I will buy that 27" iMac after all.  I was delusional thinking that Windows 7 might actually be as well thought out, streamlined and reliable as OSX 10.6... I had high hopes as I was thinking of buying a new Alien Ware system instead of the new 27" iMac.  Nope, I'm sticking with Mac.

I will say this, when it's running it's much faster than Vista.  Vista killed my Dell, but Windows 7 runs quite quickly.


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## Overread (Dec 21, 2009)

> I try to find drivers for things like my Creative Labs Live! webcam... none are to be found for Windows 7. It feels like Vista all over again



As far as I can tell creative turned over and died when vista came out - they still haven't updated their soundcards to be vista compatable (I have one its next to useless as most games won't recognise it) 

As for win 7 whilst its compatable with a lot more software upon release (cause windows did this whole betatesting thingy ) it still a new OS and so needs some time for all the 3rdparty software companeis to catch up. AS for the problems to start with -- meh just vista being a pain. Though I should note that if you run with Ultimate editions of windows OS programs you get far better performance overall (as they havn't cut bits out)


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## rocdoc (Dec 21, 2009)

Ha. Sounds like you need periodic reminders why you made the switch. Incidentally, since you mention the new 27" Macs. If it's not in your budget, DO NOT go see them at the store... It took all the will power I could muster not to leave the store with one when I saw them...


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## bigtwinky (Dec 21, 2009)

Like with any new OS, I typically wait a good 6 months until I look into purchasing it, preferably when their is an SP available.

I'm still running Win XP on my machine


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## IgsEMT (Dec 21, 2009)

Recently upgraded to Win7 from Vista. Pretty happy with it


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## SpeedTrap (Dec 21, 2009)

In defense, Win 7 64 bit Pro works great on my machines, and has not let me down at all.
Everything I had still works and in some cases works better in Windows 7. I cannot give up the ability to upgrade my own system and buy an imac. 

What happens when you want to upgrade your monitor, or you want to use some legacy software with a iMac, You can't. 

I do not want to bash Mac, I think they make a fantastic product, but I have know too many people that were mac fanboys and cried when thier systems broke and cost more to fix than buying a new one. (One Mac was over $1800.00 to repair)

But to have a fair comparison, did you take a 4 year old mac and install the newest Mac OS on it, did it work without a problem? As I Remember the latest Snow Lepard only supports intel chips.


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## usayit (Dec 21, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> But to have a fair comparison, did you take a 4 year old mac and install the newest Mac OS on it, did it work without a problem? As I Remember the latest Snow Lepard only supports intel chips.



Did exactly that when Leopard first came out....    Historically, MAC os x was very diligent with legacy support... much better than Windows.  The whole switch from IBM G to Intel chips was a MAJOR architectural change.  Comparing legacy hardware support to a MAJOR architectural change that happens once in a blue moon is not a fair comparison. 

If you asked the same question just before snow leopard's release, I could say that I have a few machines running the newest MAC os x that are much older than 4 years.  Not something that is typical with windows.


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## Double H (Dec 21, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> ...
> What happens when you want to upgrade your monitor, or you want to use some legacy software with a iMac, You can't.
> 
> I do not want to bash Mac, I think they make a fantastic product, but I have know too many people that were mac fanboys and cried when thier systems broke and cost more to fix than buying a new one. (One Mac was over $1800.00 to repair)
> ...



I have been a Mac user since learning DOS on a IIc, and I can't remember the last time I needed a Classic app, I hope you are not still playing Oregon Trail.

Too bad your Fanboys didn't get Applecare, would have cost them nothing. After mine ran out on my five-year-old PowerbookG4 and the motherboard died, I found a used (tested) one for $256. Not a bad deal at all.

OS 10.5.8 is the highest you can go on most PowerPC macs, I am running it on my Powerbook G4.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> But to have a fair comparison, did you take a 4 year old mac and install the newest Mac OS on it, did it work without a problem? As I Remember the latest Snow Lepard only supports intel chips.


Yes, I installed 10.6 on my wifes Macbook (original Intel Macbook that's at least 4 years old now).  No problems what-so-ever.  It runs faster under 10.6 than it did under 10.5.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

Another interesting difference between the two companies.

Windows 7:  $200
OSX 10.6:  $29


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

Nothing you complain about in your post has anything to do with Windows. I mean no offense by this but all your issues are either user error or lack of 3rd party support.


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

inTempus said:


> Another interesting difference between the two companies.
> 
> Windows 7:  $200
> OSX 10.6:  $29



That $29 for 10.6 is comparable to XP SP3.

So...
OSX 10.6: $29
XP SP3: $0

That's the correct comparison.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> Nothing you complain about in your post has anything to do with Windows. I mean no offense by this but all your issues are either user error or lack of 3rd party support.


So Microsoft's support of Office is lacking?  That makes perfect sense.  

Let's pretend Windows 7 is flawless for a moment.  So you want to blame everyone but Microsoft for not making it compatible with popular items such as ColorMunki's?

How is it that the ColorMunki works just fun under the brand spanking new OSX 10.6?

If Windows STILL struggles with support for common products and applications... that's a good reason to avoid it.  I went down that dead end road with Vista.

I'm typing this from my Windows 7 machine by the way.  I really want to like it.  I'll give it a month or two and see if I can get things working smoothly.  But what's funny is that when I install OSX I don't have to give it days, weeks, or months to figure it out.  It just works.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > Another interesting difference between the two companies.
> ...


LOL, that's funny.

OSX 10.6 is ahead of Windows 7.  XP is like OS9.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 21, 2009)




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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

inTempus said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing you complain about in your post has anything to do with Windows. I mean no offense by this but all your issues are either user error or lack of 3rd party support.
> ...



No. Office works just fine with Windows 7. Creative on the other hand has always had driver issues. No matter what platform. That's Creative's fault. Not Windows. ColorMunki v1.1.1 works just fine as well. I've installed it on several client's Windows 7 machines with no issues. Same as the Cisco VPN client. I have v5.0.03 (very old version) and up working on 1000+ Windows 7 machines. 

If you want to hate it, then you'll find ways to hate it. 



inTempus said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > inTempus said:
> ...



I'm drawing a comparison... 10.6 isn't a ground new OS. 10.6 is a patch, or a service release. *Only *Apple makes you pay for such a thing. Am I going to have to pay for Windows 7 SP1? No. I really don't see how you can consider paying for a service pack a benefit when every other OS offers them for free. Even HP-UX and they make you pay for everything.

Going from Windows XP/Vista to Windows 7 is like going to from OS9 to OSX.


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## Overread (Dec 21, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


>


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

Overread said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> >



I know you guys are expecting a Mac vs PC debate but that's not where I'm going. I'm just pointing out the issues stated in the OP are not issues with the operating system.


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## Overread (Dec 21, 2009)

but they are issuse with Windows - microsoft is notoriously bad at dealing with 3rdparty companies. Just consider something as basic as windows driver signing - as long as I have known I have never had an Nvida set of drivers which have had the signing - and Nvidia are harly a small time company. This is because such a service from windows costs so much that Nvidia simply does not pay.


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

Overread said:


> but they are issuse with Windows - microsoft is notoriously bad at dealing with 3rdparty companies. Just consider something as basic as windows driver signing - as long as I have known I have never had an Nvida set of drivers which have had the signing - and Nvidia are harly a small time company. This is because such a service from windows costs so much that Nvidia simply does not pay.



That's 100% not true. Every nvidia driver labeled WHQL is signed and it costs nvidia $250 per OS family (Win 7 is an OS family). $250 is a lot of money to an enterprise organization?

And even if nvidia chose not to go through WHQL testing, that is still nvidia's fault. Not Microsoft's. OSX has the same process and similar costs.


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## Overread (Dec 21, 2009)

hmm they must have changed their policy - I'm sure most of the ones I ahve used (from the Nvidia site) were not signed and I never went for betas either.


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## JamesMason (Dec 21, 2009)

> That $29 for 10.6 is comparable to XP SP3.
> 
> So...
> OSX 10.6: $29
> ...



Whilst indeed correct. OSX actually works. :greenpbl:


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

JamesMason said:


> > That $29 for 10.6 is comparable to XP SP3.
> >
> > So...
> > OSX 10.6: $29
> ...



It works for some. It doesn't work for others. Same as PC based OS's.

Hell, if I could get Photoshop, CNX2 and CounterStrike to work well under linux... the only OS I would touch would be Mint.


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## KasparP (Dec 21, 2009)

I agree with itznfb. If you want to hate it, you'll find a way to hate it.

All of your problems are because of you being a dummy. You realize ALL drivers work for Windows 7. You can run ANY file(programs, drivers, ect) with "capability mode"

That being said, you could get a Creative XP driver and install it for Windows 7...and so on.


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## MrRamonG (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm running vista on my desktop and laptop.  I haven't had any issues that I can remember, I'm pretty happy with the performance.  I run many different programs simultaneously including some heavy GIS software.  As far as photo software, I run Photoshop and Spyder 3, no issues.


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## jbylake (Dec 21, 2009)

usayit said:


> SpeedTrap said:
> 
> 
> > But to have a fair comparison, did you take a 4 year old mac and install the newest Mac OS on it, did it work without a problem? As I Remember the latest Snow Lepard only supports intel chips.
> ...


 Hate to break the news, but "Snow Leopard" was a service pack under the guise of an operating system.  Mac doesn't think anyone knows that so, shhhhhh!

I've done about 5 installs of 7 mostly home premium, went off without a hitch.  Personally, I will wait about 6 months for 7 to make sure all legacy drivers are done.

Can't use a Mac, because I use a lot of propietary software that just isn't available for a Mac, and never will be, due to the market share.  Not worth the port.

Back at you.  You just reminded me why I bought a PC, and BTW Mac's are PC's too, personal computers, but that's a secret too.

Personally, other than the issues I have with software, I like MAC's.  However I'm reminded why I didn't buy one.  I can get one with "close" to the CPU processing power, memory, and all the good stuff, for about twice what I paid for mine.  Great Deal Huh?

J.


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

So, I haven't really looked at the Mac site recently... but is Nehalem really the newest CPU you can get on a Mac? for $2,500. I'm really trying not to bash here but that's pretty retarded. 3 new lines of CPU's have come out since Nehalem.

Edit...
I must be missing something... no triple channel, no 10k+ rpm drives, no ssd, old procs, ancient graphics cards. Where can I build a mac with hardware from 2009?


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> No. Office works just fine with Windows 7. Creative on the other hand has always had driver issues. No matter what platform. That's Creative's fault. Not Windows. ColorMunki v1.1.1 works just fine as well. I've installed it on several client's Windows 7 machines with no issues. Same as the Cisco VPN client. I have v5.0.03 (very old version) and up working on 1000+ Windows 7 machines.


You say it works fine for you, I just spent the morning on the phone with IT to resolve the issue of Outlook not talking to our Exchange server.  

You say your ColorMunki works fine.  Good for you.  I screwed with mine for an hour last night before it finally worked.

Perhaps you know how to deal with all of the cryptic errors the Cisco VPN client throws while installing, I don't.  I'm not in IT nor do I want to be.  Some folks, like you, enjoy  figuring out why things don't work, I don't.  I like to buy something, install it and use it.  If I liked to solve puzzles, I'd buy a damn, well, puzzle.



> If you want to hate it, then you'll find ways to hate it.


I'll say this a little more slowly this time.

I 

want

to 

like

it.

I would love to have a new Alienware PC to play Bad Company 2 on with my buddies next year.  I was thinking I could jump back over to Windows for a while with my next PC purchase.  After my ordeal last night, and after my buddy who is a MCSE, works in IT and loves Windows sat here and told me "it has some kinks in it"... I'm not going to dump a couple grand into another Vista type "kink"... not until I'm damn sure it's going to meet my needs.



> I'm drawing a comparison... 10.6 isn't a ground new OS. 10.6 is a patch, or a service release. *Only *Apple makes you pay for such a thing. Am I going to have to pay for Windows 7 SP1?  No. I really don't see how you can consider paying for a service pack a benefit when every other OS offers them for free. Even HP-UX and they make you pay for everything.


Really?  You might consider OSX 10.6 a patch, but it's the next evolution of OSX.   You don't have to pay for service pack updates?  LOL, you mean you bought Vista, it's a turd, so Microsoft spends a couple million in horrible advertising campaigns to convince people it's not as bad as everyone says it is... while they race to get a replacement out the door.  After the Vista ordeal, Windows 7 should be a free upgrade - not another $200.



> Going from Windows XP/Vista to Windows 7 is like going to from OS9 to OSX.


It looks like a warmed over Vista to me... well, a modest attempt to fix Vista anyway.


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

Let me just step back and take this at a more serious level. Your issues with specific software and specific configurations again have nothing to do with the operating system. It's the software/configurations you're dealing with. Any given person can run into the same or similar issues on any OS. There are people that have good/bad experiences with each OS.

I personally find Windows much easier to deal with than OSX. Any time I've used OSX I run into gray screens of death every time I try to modify something. On a mac mini I had it would gray screen every time I tried to change the background. Right out of the box. It went right back in the box.

Vista was on SP2 before Windows 7 came out. Just like XP was on SP2 when Vista came out.
Vista and 7 are completely different platforms. They were two separate projects from the start. Look up Windows Longhorn (Vista) and Windows Blackcomb (7).

A lot has changed since the beginning of those projects but from my knowledge the intent was for Longhorn to be a desktop OS and Blackcomb to be an Enterprise desktop solution. That's obviously not the way it panned out but I don't have any regrets paying money for Vista. It was a great OS for me and a welcome change from the boring the XP desktop. I also have no issue paying again for 7 since it's a great leap forward in desktop operating systems.

To the point though.. 7 is in no way a fix to Vista. They aren't even related. *EDIT* forgot to finish my point... Vista release was delayed and 7 release was early... so their release dates were a little closer than they really should have been.

But as I said before.. OSX may work for some, Windows may work for some and Linux may work for some. That's why all 3 are still around.
---------------------------------------------------------

Did you upgrade Vista or did you do a clean install of Windows 7?


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> Did you upgrade Vista or did you do a clean install of Windows 7?


It wouldn't allow me to upgrade my Vista install.  So I had to repartition the hard drive and nuke the previous install.  I didn't care, I had nothing on it since upgrading from XP to Vista previously. 

That, and while I was waiting for my buddy to get things working I Googled "vista upgrade to windows 7" because he said it was better to just wipe the system and start over.  

I found warnings like this:

Don't upgrade to Windows 7 ... clean install instead! | Hardware 2.0 | ZDNet.com

So I figured it would be wise to start fresh.


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## jbylake (Dec 21, 2009)

I hope this doesn't turn into another MAC/LINUX/WINDOWS Jihad..

Personally, if the best computer, and operating system, *for my needs,* was built and marketed by Burger King, then that's what I'd buy. And supersize.

Now if you really want a Jihad, visit Slashdot.org.  Microsoft is the anti-christ, MAC, Satan, and Linux the most high.....

P.S. It is recommended that you always do a clean install with WIN 7.

Oh, and you can spell slowly if you want, I don't read so fast

J.:mrgreen:


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## itznfb (Dec 21, 2009)

It's always recommended to do a clean install. No matter what OS.


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## Joves (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> It's always recommended to do a clean install. No matter what OS.


 
Exactly! Using the upgrade route is always disastrous. I send the files I plan on moving over to a secondary disk and, put them where I want them after the clean install. I personally have not had a single issue with XP and never went to Vista because, it was ME revisited. Actually I ran ME without issue after I tweaked it. And Creative Labs I havent used their trash since ME, simply because they are one of the worst for writing compatible drivers. I may go to 7 when I do a whole new build but, not until then and, being able to build what you want is one of the reasons I have stayed with Windows.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> It's always recommended to do a clean install. No matter what OS.



Unless you're going from 10.5 to 10.6.  I mean, after all, it's just a patch.


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## Montana (Dec 21, 2009)

I just bought a Windows 7 machine it has been flawless.  Loaded my Office on there...no problem.
Loaded my Spyder calibration....oops, grab a new driver off of Spyder's website....installs and runs great.  

Zero issues.  SOunds like you need to switch to Nikon Tim.


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

Montana said:


> Zero issues.  SOunds like you need to switch to Nikon Tim.


Why, so I have a camera and a computer that don't work?


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## Montana (Dec 21, 2009)

Just ribbin ya!  LOL


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## Missdaisy (Dec 21, 2009)

rocdoc said:


> Ha. Sounds like you need periodic reminders why you made the switch. Incidentally, since you mention the new 27" Macs. If it's not in your budget, DO NOT go see them at the store... It took all the will power I could muster not to leave the store with one when I saw them...


 
My husband has been begging and pleading for one.  I know it's just a matter of time till I cave.


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## pharmakon (Dec 21, 2009)

Just made the jump from XP to Win7 and I really like it. I haven't ever had any real problems with windows. I fix a lot of my friends' windows PC's, but I usually find that the problems were "self inflicted" due to user error or lack of common sense 

"... all I did was download that 'free' screen saver from the myspace banner ad... now look at what WINDOWS is doing! ..."

Nothing is free, you will eventually pay with money, or guiness in this case...

Not to say there is anything wrong with mac though, maybe my friend would never have had such a problem if they shelled out the cash for a mac in the beginning. I don't really use them much but they do seem to offer more idiot protection. (less "virus market" share?) (p.s. no that isn't me saying you are an idiot if you use one)

PC:MAC, CANON:NIKON, FORD:CHEVY, Conservative:Liberal, and not to even start on religion... Some arguments will never end

...I say it's just a matter of personal needs and preference...

...You know you really just have to go to a store that has both brands, try them out, see which one feels better to you, navigate the commonly used features.... 

...Well yours may be cheaper to upgrade but the quality of the base components is much better with mine...

sound familiar?  

Sorry, bought a Keurig coffee maker for the break room and we just HAD to try out ALL the samples today, so I might ramble even more than I usually do...  oh and by the way, it's MUCH better than the Senseo I used to have, SOOOO glad I made the switch!


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## rocdoc (Dec 21, 2009)

Just made a note for myself: "when bored, go on a forum and post a thread on either PC or Mac being way better than the other. than sit back and enjoy."


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## percent20 (Dec 21, 2009)

I have been using Windows 7 since RC1, heck still using it. I have no had no problems at all. One of these days i'll go ahead and install my windows 7 pro I have, but not sure when. 

Also i was able to get Creative Live Webcam I have to work, but it was a HUGE pain in the rear end. I have hated creative since vista came out because they are to lazy to write new drivers.


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## usayit (Dec 21, 2009)

jbylake said:


> Hate to break the news, but "Snow Leopard" was a service pack under the guise of an operating system.  Mac doesn't think anyone knows that so, shhhhhh!



Fail to see what does this statement have anything to do with mine.... :er:

In fact the major number of their release hasn't even changed.  TEN.5 is the same OS as TEN.6.  Duh..

My point:  Passing off the discontinued support for the PowerPC processor as the same cycle of Planned obsolescence MS Windows employs is pure B.S.  The PowerPC is a very different architecture (RISC) than the intel chip... no one can expect Apple to continued support of both moving forward.  I have to give Apple props for even providing parallel support for both processors for even Leopard, 10.5.  They could have easily left the PowerPC crowd behind at 10.4... they didn't.


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## usayit (Dec 21, 2009)

Montana said:


> I just bought a Windows 7 machine it has been flawless.



The key difference is that you "just bought" a windows 7 machine.  OP was bringing out mothballed hardware that is totally still capable and running into problems.  This is the key difference...

Windows releases are designed to drive hardware sales.


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## rallysman (Dec 21, 2009)

installed windows 7 on three machines with no problems at all in the past month.
2 were from win741.com....$30 if you have a .edu email address. 

Windows 7 is the best yet. It has yet to give me a problem. Its driver database rocks!


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## usayit (Dec 21, 2009)

itznfb said:


> It's always recommended to do a clean install. No matter what OS.



I went from 10.3 to 10.4 to 10.5 without any problems at all.  I later acquired a couple G5 workstations of very different configurations; early dual CPU G5 2001 vintage and the last generation dual core G5 2005ish.  I didn't feel like installing from scratch so I simply made a couple clones the 10.5 disk from my Powerbook G4.  (again a different CPU G4 versus G5).  No recovery disk was needed to deal with unlike hardware snaffu.  The only fresh install I've done was a hackintosh install which was required because of the Intel CPU.  


btw.. yes I have a 5 license pack of 10.5.


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## percent20 (Dec 21, 2009)

usayit said:


> Montana said:
> 
> 
> > Windows releases are designed to drive hardware sales.
> ...


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## CxThree (Dec 21, 2009)

WIndows 7 on 2 desktops at home, 3 at work, work laptop, 2 home laptops, and a netbook. All of them run great.. All hardware bought in the last 3 years.

Sorry to hear you had so much trouble, but I really am impressed with Win7.


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## PatrickHMS (Dec 21, 2009)

One cool thing about Microsoft software...

They eventually fix all the shortcomings in some version of their OS, and instead of giving you a fix to software you have already paid for, they bundle the fixes as a new release

*And they CHARGE you $$ for it...lol*


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## inTempus (Dec 21, 2009)

CxThree said:


> WIndows 7 on 2 desktops at home, 3 at work, work laptop, 2 home laptops, and a netbook. All of them run great.. All hardware bought in the last 3 years.
> 
> Sorry to hear you had so much trouble, but I really am impressed with Win7.


I'm not totally displeased with it.  It is far better than the Vista it replaced.  Vista was so bad I literally turned it off one day in frustration and went to the Apple store the next day and bought my first Mac.

Now that Windows 7 is installed and actually working (after scouring the net for drivers - something you don't do with OSX) and I've gotten my applications installed (with the typical "kinks" one encounters with Windows installs from time to time), it's pretty good.  It's light years better than Vista.

I priced out a system on NewEgg and will probably order the parts to build a more current machine for !@#$ and grins.  But I think I'll stick with OSX for work and serious matters where up-time is critical.


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## F1addict (Dec 22, 2009)

I've never understood the problems people have had with windows?! I've never had a problem with any version of windows...except Millenium Edition, that was terrible.

I didn't have a single problem with Vista, I actually liked Vista better then XP. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky? but I wanted 7 because it was supposed to be faster and being a student I was able to get it for $30 so I preordered it back in September. 
And when it came out I downloaded it, it installed flawlessly on my then secondary 1TB HDD, I had Vista on the older 200GB, it automatically downloaded and installed all the drivers for everything in my computer. The only problem was that I had to reinstall all my programs because 7 didn't recognize them because they were installed under Vista and on a different hard drive. Other then that I haven't had a single problem with it

But I must admit, I need a laptop for school, and I will be buying a Macbook Pro, although it will be refurbished because the 13" is too small and I can't justify spending $1600 on a laptop...of course I'll just immediately go install windows 7 on it because I don't have access to a version of AutoCAD that works with Mac...I'm going to school for architecture. But I don't trust any of the windows based laptop manufactures to make reliable laptops, and I know that Mac does. Everyone I know with a windows laptop, no matter who made it, HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc, they've all had some kind of problem with them, and my friends with Macbooks and Macbook Pro's have never had any problems


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## Darkhunter139 (Dec 22, 2009)

inTempus said:


> Another interesting difference between the two companies.
> 
> Windows 7:  $200
> OSX 10.6:  $29



Another interesting difference is that Apple hardware is a lot more expensive,  you can get a machine running Windows 7 that is more powerful than a mac for less money.  You are still spending more money on an mac machine then you are on a PC. 

I am a big windows 7 fan, the upgrade from vista was simple for me (I did a fresh install thats the way to go imo) id pick it over OSX any day.


----------



## JamesMason (Dec 22, 2009)

> Hell, if I could get Photoshop, CNX2 and CounterStrike to work well under linux... the only OS I would touch would be Mint.



Indeed, ill second that. Have you tried the latest ubuntu ? its fantastic


----------



## Sw1tchFX (Dec 22, 2009)

F1addict said:


> I've never understood the problems people have had with windows?! I've never had a problem with any version of windows...except Millenium Edition, that was terrible.
> 
> I didn't have a single problem with Vista, I actually liked Vista better then XP. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky? but I wanted 7 because it was supposed to be faster and being a student I was able to get it for $30 so I preordered it back in September.
> And when it came out I downloaded it, it installed flawlessly on my then secondary 1TB HDD, I had Vista on the older 200GB, it automatically downloaded and installed all the drivers for everything in my computer. The only problem was that I had to reinstall all my programs because 7 didn't recognize them because they were installed under Vista and on a different hard drive. Other then that I haven't had a single problem with it



Agreed, and yes, windows ME is probably the worst OS ever made. 



I preordered windows 7 after running the beta for a week and paid $50 for it. 

IMO 7 is one of the best operating systems Microsoft has released. it just works, without getting in the way of the user experience.

the new start menu search and jumplists are amazingly useful. I can find anything in less than a second just by starting to type it in the start menu.

I have yet to find any problems with it recognizing hardware, 32, or 64-bit, 

all my software not only runs flawlessly, but runs BETTER than it ever has on Vista or XP, as always. 

the thing where you can drag a window to the side and it snaps to half the monitor is BRILLIANT, and use it all the friggin time, i'd buy windows 7 again JUST FOR THAT. When i'm typing reports, copying pictures, or comparing two images, it's PERFECT. 

the automatic backup is trivial to set up and work with in windows 7, as always. 

In the last 3 years, Photoshop has yet to crash on me with vista or XP, it crashes ALL THE TIME on my girlfriends MacBook Pro, and the imacs at school, as always. 

Shooting tethered with Capture One is more reliable than my friends imac, as always.

I was able to build my system EXACTLY how I wanted to and have it work, as always.  


I've had fewer problems on my PC than anyone I know with a mac, and on a pc, my productivity is way up in comparison.


----------



## Montana (Dec 22, 2009)

usayit said:


> Montana said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought a Windows 7 machine it has been flawless.
> ...


 

Ah, but I have also been running it on an older laptop and will upgrade the wifes laptop too. I was just trying to say to Tim, that the new machine accepted old software without issue. i.e. Microsoft Office and my Spyder Calibration, my Epson 3800 printer, etc. And for what its worth, I had zero issues with Vista.  I loved XP for work.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 22, 2009)

pharmakon said:


> Just made the jump from XP to Win7 and I really like it. I haven't ever had any real problems with windows. I fix a lot of my friends' windows PC's, but I usually find that the problems were "self inflicted" due to user error or lack of common sense
> 
> "... all I did was download that 'free' screen saver from the myspace banner ad... now look at what WINDOWS is doing! ..."


 
Hit the nail on the head, IMO.  Probably 99% of the issues I had to help fix on other peoples machines fell under spyware/malware issues.  And you can't really fault Microsoft with being so widely used that the vast majority of said software targets it.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Dec 22, 2009)




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## Plato (Dec 22, 2009)

jbylake said:


> However I'm reminded why I didn't buy one.  I can get one with "close" to the CPU processing power, memory, and all the good stuff, for about twice what I paid for mine.






Instead of reading specs, try timing your apps.


----------



## Plato (Dec 22, 2009)

cfusionpm said:


> pharmakon said:
> 
> 
> > Just made the jump from XP to Win7 and I really like it. I haven't ever had any real problems with windows. I fix a lot of my friends' windows PC's, but I usually find that the problems were "self inflicted" due to user error or lack of common sense
> ...



No one "faults" Microsoft.  We just like the idea of 24/7 Internet for years and years and years with no need for virus protection and no infections... EVER!


----------



## usayit (Dec 22, 2009)

gas tank -> camp fire.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 22, 2009)

Plato said:


> cfusionpm said:
> 
> 
> > pharmakon said:
> ...


 
I've had that.  My downstairs desktop has been on since 2004.  Other than being old and slow, it still surfs the internet, types documents, and watches youtube like a pro.  It also acts as a media server for my 360 and PS3.  The only time it's turned off is when an install or update calls for a restart.

That said, I have nothing against MacOS.  I don't agree with some of the design and flow choices they make, but I could see taking comfort in being such a small minority that no one really messes with them.  The problem I have is with the hardware vs pricing.  

Referring to app speeds, if it's capable of out performing machines with better hardware, then I can only conclude Apple intentionally overcharges for dated hardware.  If that can match the performance of a more powerful Windows PC, then a Mac running top level hardware should absolutely fly by comparisson.  Problem is, _those_ Macs tend to cost about as much as my car.  So I feel like I am personally being ripped off by paying more money for old hardware; regardless of performance.  _They could have done more powerful and cheaper but don't_, which is why I am so reluctant to give them my money.  If I could just easily run OSX on my fast, powerful, desktop PC, I would be a happy camper.  As it stands though, all my apps run at lightning speed on my Win7 box.


----------



## NateWagner (Dec 22, 2009)

Plato said:


> No one "faults" Microsoft.  We just like the idea of 24/7 Internet for years and years and years with no need for virus protection and no infections... EVER!



I think the "EVER" might be a bit strong. For the forseeable future perhaps, but as Mac's market share continues to increase I can see the need to have virus protection and infections happening even on mac's. They aren't impenetrable.


----------



## Inst!nct (Dec 22, 2009)

wait no nikon vs canon?

O WAIT

this is mac vs pc

edit: i'd call myself a self declared computer nerd, and to be honest, i'm on my last straw with windows, it just constantly is ****ing up and needing repairs, only thing keeping me from buying mac is the price range + "starbucks kid" aspect to it

double edit: the only reason mac's dont have viruses is because noone is going to create viruses for an OS that only holds like 5 % of the market share


----------



## LokiZ (Dec 22, 2009)

Plato said:


> No one "faults" Microsoft.  We just like the idea of 24/7 Internet for years and years and years with no need for virus protection and no infections... EVER!



Well when I talked with some of those malicious sorts and tried to get them to write some code for your type they simply laughed and said the pay-off just simply wasn't worth their time nor their efforts.  So I guess you'll have to come back with some stronger sales numbers then that before we can accommodate your envious request to be like us. 

But seriously all joking aside.

I am truly sorry the OP has seen so much grief with his Win 7.  Especially since it sounds as though he had his own personal IT/IS at his side.  But then again my experience with many IT/IS "gurus" is that they aren't all what they should be cracked up to be.  Not saying the OP's IT guy was this way, maybe he just had a bad day.  I seriously have not heard any local horror stories for win 7 but then the group I run with is pro or ultra sort of ppl.  Not saying a home bunch are bad just not my types.  And it's got to be 64bit if your doing win7 other wise what is the point?  On my personal PC I still do XPpro simply cause it is solid (for me) and I don't yet need 64.  When I move to a new box it will be win7 no biggie.

BTW what puzzles me is we have photogs here who bend over backwards to learn the art of manual photography on SLR systems and yet when it comes to PC's they whine and complain cause what they really want is a point and shoot PC. Ok go buy your Mac then, no skin off my back.  That doesn't mean I'll get it though. 

But before you start... Yes my PC is very versatile, definitely not point and shoot.  At work as well as at home I make the apps I need when there are none. I even have made programs that help me program LOL.  So if you like it deep and do the same on your Mac, please by all means engage me.  Other wise... Point and shoot away my friends. Point and shoot.  Just remember what you say about other point and shooters in the future.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

LokiZ said:


> BTW what puzzles me is we have photogs here who bend over backwards to learn the art of manual photography on SLR systems and yet when it comes to PC's they whine and complain cause what they really want is a point and shoot PC. Ok go buy your Mac then, no skin off my back.  That doesn't mean I'll get it though.


What puzzles me are silly statements like this.


----------



## FrankLamont (Dec 23, 2009)

The entire 'debate' is foolish. Macs and PC can work together and not against; they are simply different systems with different bodies. If you don't like one, get the other - but that doesn't mean that someone else can't like the one you don't.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > No one "faults" Microsoft. We just like the idea of 24/7 Internet for years and years and years with no need for virus protection and no infections... EVER!
> ...


 
Let me type slowly so that you understand:  *n-o  i-n-f-e-c-t-i-o-n-s  E-V-E-R!*  I've been on the 'net 24/7 ever since it was opened to the public in the late eighties and I've never had any virus protection software.  I don't care why and I won't argue why.  I care only that it's a fact and that's not open for discussion.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> LokiZ said:
> 
> 
> > BTW what puzzles me is we have photogs here who bend over backwards to learn the art of manual photography on SLR systems and yet when it comes to PC's they whine and complain cause what they really want is a point and shoot PC. Ok go buy your Mac then, no skin off my back. That doesn't mean I'll get it though.
> ...


 
A Mac is a tool in the same sense that a hammer is a tool.  I buy tools to use.  I have no desire to spend my time troubleshooting them.

Actually, I have to give credit to MS for Windoze-7.  They've come a long way.  According to CNN only 31% of the users that upgraded reported major problems.


----------



## spudgunr (Dec 23, 2009)

And of 31%, I bet you 90% of those are user error (as my issue was, and I knew I wasn't SUPPOSED to be doing what I was doing when I did it).


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

spudgunr said:


> And of 31%, I bet you 90% of those are user error (as my issue was, and I knew I wasn't SUPPOSED to be doing what I was doing when I did it).


 
Do you also hold a hammer by the wrong end?


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

I did not tried Vista even I have it (remove the OS that shipped with the notebook and replaced it with XP).  I jump from XP pro to Windows 7 64Bit recently.  Everything seems to be running fine except couple issues. 

The KonicaMinota Laser printer driver no longer works under 64Bit environment and the manufacturer do not have a newer driver for it and will not make one in the future.    Also, an opensource RAW converter run very slow even under XP sp2 compatible mode.  Other than that, everything seems to be running fine.

As for MAC OS, since it is gaining market share, so more and more Trojans and worms are targeting it nowadays.  If your machine is not infected, good.  But I will still recommend scan it just for the safe side. 

In April this year, a botnet that was created with MAC OS machines has been activated.  In other words, there are a lot of Mac based zombies on the NET and become part of the botnet army.   The owner of the machine may not notice in the beginning since some of the trojans just hidden inside the machine.  But when the botnet was activated and the particular MAC machine join the attack, the user may noticed performance drop.

How much of the drop depends on the user internet pipe size, computer processing power as well as the malware itself.  It was reported that some malware took 100% resources of the Mac machine.

Since botnet is a money (I learned that US$10,000 a day to attack a site and some botnet owners are multi-millionare) generating business (not legal of course), I am sure they will go after any machines that they can use for generating cash.


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

FriedChicken said:


> The entire 'debate' is foolish. Macs and PC can work together and not against; they are simply different systems with different bodies. If you don't like one, get the other - but that doesn't mean that someone else can't like the one you don't.



They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.

I remember not too long ago we never saw this tension between mac and PC users. Most people used both at some point throughout their day.

It was something about the iPod that ruined that harmony though. For some reason these people honestly believe they are elite because they own an apple product and instantly grow this elitist disgust for anyone that doesn't conform.


----------



## Village Idiot (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm running OS X, Vista, Windows 7, Windows XP, and Ubuntu just fine at the house. Some have had issues while much of it is support between two pieces of the system (be it hardware or software) that were not designed by the same company, so could not totally and utterly gaurantee stability.

The only major one I had was having to reinstall OS X after about a month because it crashed and would not let me back into the OS. That scared me a bit as I was in the middle of copying all my photos to a file server for backup and was only slightly over halfway through.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Dao said:


> As for MAC OS, since it is gaining market share, so more and more Trojans and worms are targeting it nowadays. If your machine is not infected, good. But I will still recommend scan it just for the safe side.


 
That allegation/recommendation was made ten years ago, nine years ago, eight years ago... (you get the point).

Again, connected 24/7 since the Internet was opened to the public in the late eighties.  No virus protection and no virus... EVER!  I don't care why, I care only that it's a fact.


----------



## CxThree (Dec 23, 2009)

The problem with them working together is the mindset of the users.  When Apple makes the kind of commercials they are currently running, they fuel the "war".  Their ads directly downplay the PC platform and windows specifically.  It's realy nothing different than a typical politician running a smear campaign about the person running against him.  I don't like, or support that.

To me, if you have to downplay your competition, somethings wrong.

I have used both platforms and like them both.  For me, the PC fit better.  That may not be the case for you and thats ok.


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> > As for MAC OS, since it is gaining market share, so more and more Trojans and worms are targeting it nowadays. If your machine is not infected, good. But I will still recommend scan it just for the safe side.
> ...



Why are you so sure you have no virus or malware in your computer?  I am not saying your computer is infected but I do came across some machines that the owner do not know their PCs were infected since no strange behaviors nor symptoms with their PC.

A well written spyware can hide itself so that the user do not know about it (stealth) and send information out from the computer in the background.  In fact, the malware/spyware do not want you to know your computer is infected so that the user will keep using the computer. 

Of course, there is a high chance that your computer is clean because the way you operate your computer.  A lot of time when computer is infected, it is due to user error.

A year or so ago, someone I know went to a website and saw a message regarding his PC is infected and need to buy a program from them to remove the malware.  So he bought the software, downloaded it and installed in his PC.  Later on he told me about the software was good because it keep finding new virus/spyware .....  but I noticed that the software he bought was a malware.  His computer do not have malware in the beginning until he installed the malware himself (and pay money for it) .....  hahaha


----------



## Inst!nct (Dec 23, 2009)

CxThree said:


> The problem with them working together is the mindset of the users.  When Apple makes the kind of commercials they are currently running, they fuel the "war".  Their ads directly downplay the PC platform and windows specifically.  It's realy nothing different than a typical politician running a smear campaign about the person running against him.  I don't like, or support that.
> 
> To me, if you have to downplay your competition, somethings wrong.
> 
> I have used both platforms and like them both.  For me, the PC fit better.  That may not be the case for you and thats ok.


well said.. 

back to fueling the war though, like someone earlier said on the forums


> a pc is like an SLR, a mac is like a P&S


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Dao said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Dao said:
> ...


 
I've used enought Windoze machines over the years at work and at friends' homes that I'm well aware of the symptoms of a virus or other malware.  In fact, I'm using an infected Windoze machine right now (our multi-million dollar IT department appears to be powerless).

Connected 24/7 since the Internet was opened to the public in the late eighties. No virus protection and no virus... EVER! I don't care why, I care only that it's a fact.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Inst!nct said:


> a pc is like an SLR, a mac is like a P&S


 
Why?  Is it because there's no need to spend hours and hours getting a Mac to run properly?


----------



## NateWagner (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Let me type slowly so that you understand:  *n-o  i-n-f-e-c-t-i-o-n-s  E-V-E-R!*  I've been on the 'net 24/7 ever since it was opened to the public in the late eighties and I've never had any virus protection software.  I don't care why and I won't argue why.  I care only that it's a fact and that's not open for discussion.



When you said EVER, that continues into the future, not the past. I will spell slowly so you can understand. 
*N-O-I-N-F-E-C-T-I-O-N-S-Y-E-T!*

it may be a while before they happen, but eventually it may happen. The fact that something hasn't happened is not proof that it never will. All I'm saying.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Let me type slowly so that you understand: *n-o i-n-f-e-c-t-i-o-n-s E-V-E-R!* I've been on the 'net 24/7 ever since it was opened to the public in the late eighties and I've never had any virus protection software. I don't care why and I won't argue why. I care only that it's a fact and that's not open for discussion.
> ...


 
I've also never been attacked by Martian death rays. I'll worry about that possibility about as much as I'll worry about a Mac virus.

Why are Windoze enthusiasts such crepe-hangers?  Oh yeah, I know.


----------



## NateWagner (Dec 23, 2009)

I've never been shot with a gun... doesn't mean it won't or can't happen. 
I've never had H1N1... doesn't mean it won't happen
I've never drank Tequila... doesn't mean it won't happen

your logic is a classic fallacy and is utterly ridiculous. I have yet to make any comment that MAC is not quite safe. I have merely corrected your statement.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.


That's a bit over the top.  Some of the most heated vitriol come from Windows users and it's directed towards Mac users.  They're both capable of being a bit crazy at times but neither has the corner on the market.

Because you are such a strong proponent of Windows, does that make you an elitist Windows snob who is a Gates lemming?



> I remember not too long ago we never saw this tension between mac and PC users. Most people used both at some point throughout their day.


I don't know what region of the world you're talking about, but the Mac vs. PC debates have raged since I can remember.  If anything, they're less caustic today than they were 10 years ago as more people have shifted towards OSX from PC, and like me have been known to use both (I'm typing this from my W7 machine, again).



> It was something about the iPod that ruined that harmony though. For some reason these people honestly believe they are elite because they own an apple product and instantly grow this elitist disgust for anyone that doesn't conform.


I've never seen this elitist attitude of iPod users.  I don't know how an iPod has anything to do with the Mac vs. PC debates as the iPod is merely a media playback device.   Most of the iPod owners I know use them with Windows anyway.

The iPod gave Apple a segue back into the computer business to degree... in that their popularity revitalized a struggling company.  The final move that propelled Apple back into the running in terms of PC sales was the introduction of Intel chips.  That's what brought me over... that and how badly Vista sucked.  If they were still using Power PC chips, I would have been running XP until W7 released.

I figured if the Mac sucked under OSX I could at least boot it in Windows and still get some use out of it.  I quickly found that I liked OSX much better than Windows... although W7 is growing on me.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> I've never been shot with a gun... doesn't mean it won't or can't happen.
> I've never had H1N1... doesn't mean it won't happen
> I've never drank Tequila... doesn't mean it won't happen
> 
> your logic is a classic fallacy and is utterly ridiculous. I have yet to make any comment that MAC is not quite safe. I have merely corrected your statement.


 
I don't worry about being shot with a gun.
I don't worry about H1N1.
I don't worry about death rays from Mars.
I don't worry about computer viruses.

I have better things to do, like drinking Tequila.


----------



## NateWagner (Dec 23, 2009)

that's fine... don't worry about it. I don't either. 

That being said, I still keep antivirus on my mac just in case.


----------



## Village Idiot (Dec 23, 2009)

Gates doesn't work for MS anymore, Ballmer took over.


----------



## Inst!nct (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Inst!nct said:
> 
> 
> > a pc is like an SLR, a mac is like a P&S
> ...


so it takes hours for a slr to work?

at the basis, they are relatively the same, but you can upgrade with an slr/pc, not with a mac


----------



## Montana (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> I've never been shot with a gun... doesn't mean it won't or can't happen.
> I've never had H1N1... doesn't mean it won't happen
> I've never drank Tequila... doesn't mean it won't happen
> 
> your logic is a classic fallacy and is utterly ridiculous. I have yet to make any comment that MAC is not quite safe. I have merely corrected your statement.


 

Nate, Nate, Nate............give it a whirl and post back in the morning......if you can find your house, your shoes, or your car.  LOL


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> I still keep antivirus on my mac just in case.



:thumbup:

P.S.  Do I need to backup my files since I have not had a single hard disk failure in my PCs?


----------



## Montana (Dec 23, 2009)

Does this thread mean that we have to add our computer/OS to our signature?


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.
> ...


 
Probably the major reason for the Mac stability is that the same company sells the hardware and the operating system.

I had no issue with the Power-PC chips but, in my case, I had neither the need nor the desire to load Windoze.

I often wonder what the computer world would be like if Gates had lost the lawsuit.

By the way, if you haven't yet set up Time Machine, it's really slick.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Montana said:


> Does this thread mean that we have to add our computer/OS to our signature?


 
Only the equipment collectors that list all their camera gear.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> that's fine... don't worry about it. I don't either.
> 
> That being said, I still keep antivirus on my mac just in case.


 
How long have you used it and has it caught anything?


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Probably the major reason for the Mac stability is that the same company sells the hardware and the operating system.



This is what I believe as well.

Personally, it is good that there is a Mac vs Win type discussion.  Or even better  Mac vs Win vs Linux.    Imagine if only one OS worth using, our world will be totally different.


----------



## NateWagner (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> NateWagner said:
> 
> 
> > that's fine... don't worry about it. I don't either.
> ...



As you said, and I said, I haven't seen or heard of a "Virus" to hit mac. I have caught a trojan (from a not so smart user of my computer). 

That being said, as others have mentioned, I have never had a hard drive crash either. That doesn't stop me from backing up.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

Montana said:


> Does this thread mean that we have to add our computer/OS to our signature?


Yes, and all relevant applications.

Example:

OSX 10.6 / 2.8 ghz Extreme / 4GB RAM / 500GB internal / 2TB external / CS3 / LR 2.6 / Wacom


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> Gates doesn't work for MS anymore, Ballmer took over.


Last I heard, he was the Chairman of the Board and even still advised the company on key development projects.

I don't know how your company is run, but ours is controlled by our Board of Directors.  If the CEO doesn't perform, the Board cans his ass.  The Chairman has the most power of all Board members.

Regardless, Windows is Bill's baby.  It has been since it first sprang to life in the 1980's.  If it wasn't for Bill, we wouldn't have Windows.


----------



## Montana (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Montana said:
> 
> 
> > Does this thread mean that we have to add our computer/OS to our signature?
> ...


 

Sweet, I'll update mine after digging through the collection tonight.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

NateWagner said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > NateWagner said:
> ...


 
I'm even surprised about the trojan horse.

I've also never had a hard drive crash.  I back up my files because I occasionally want to retrieve something that I willingly trashed six months ago.  Besides, I have an extra HD that otherwise wouldn't be doing anything.  BTW, Time Machine is really slick.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Montana said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Montana said:
> ...


----------



## Montana (Dec 23, 2009)

:lmao:


----------



## SpeedTrap (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Windoze


 
Wow, you put a Z in there, wow, that is so clever..........:er:

If you do not have any method of checking your computer for malware, how can you be so sure it is not there?..............

Just because something has never happened to you does not mean it will not.  I have never been in a car wreck, I wear a seatbelt, using your logic I should be fine without it.

I try to remember that there is always someone smarter or bent on doing more damage than the last; so not protecting your computer or files is a disaster waiting to happen.  I just hope the day a truly malicious virus is released on the Mac community that they have learned from the growing pains of Windows users and are ready for it. Protect your PC and backup your data.  

I have heard time machine is slick, but it is still not enough reason for me to switch.


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> Regardless, Windows is Bill's baby.  It has been since it first sprang to life in the 1980's.  If it wasn't for Bill, we wouldn't have Windows.








Bill Gates is pretty sexy on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless, Windows is Bill's baby. It has been since it first sprang to life in the 1980's. If it wasn't for Bill, we wouldn't have Windows.
> ...


 
Actually, if it weren't for Bill Gates _and_ Apple, you wouldn't have Windows. Gates (as an individual, prior to the founding of MS) wrote the original Mac OS with windows (lower case) under contract to Apple. As I recall, he and Steve Jobs had been friends while in college. He subsequently founded MS and introduced a look-alike OS for the IBM-based machines. Apple sued him but, in those days, jurors understood computers about as much as they understood black holes in space. Gates successfully defended against the lawsuit.


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

What about Xerox Alto ?


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> If you do not have any method of checking your computer for malware, how can you be so sure it is not there?..............
> 
> Just because something has never happened to you does not mean it will not. I have never been in a car wreck, I wear a seatbelt, using your logic I should be fine without it.


 
I've been in enough car wrecks that I'm very familiar with the symptoms. Translation: I've used enough Windoze machines that I'm familiar with the symptoms of malware.

I've driven over two million miles without scratching a fender. I wear seat belts only because I'm scared of the air bag. Hell, the manufacturers even put a warning on the sun visor indicating that air bags can kill.



SpeedTrap said:


> Wow, you put a Z in there, wow, that is so clever..........:er:


 
Naah. I can't claim credit. It's a well-known commonly used and accurate description of the MS operating systems.



SpeedTrap said:


> I have heard time machine is slick, but it is still not enough reason for me to switch.


 
Of course it isn't. There are many other reasons why those that evaluate objectively switch to a Mac. Time Machine is merely a bonus. On the other hand, persons with that have never touched a Mac think that they're being clever by bashing it.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Dao said:


> What about Xerox Alto ?


 
Know absolutely nothing about it.


----------



## Dao (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> > What about Xerox Alto ?
> ...





hahahaha .. come on!!


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

Dao said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Dao said:
> ...


 
Actually, I was kinda hoping that I wouldn't be forced to wrack my brain regarding details.  In any event, it did have a GUI and it preceded the Mac.  However, the GUI did not have true windows.  I also do not remember that it was ever available commercially.

If you really want to get sticky, the Lisa preceded the Mac but it was so expensive as to be damned near a joke.  I think that Apple sold perhaps three units.  The Mac was essentially a low-priced Lisa but it may be that the Lisa was the platform on which Gates based the OS.  I can't remember with any degree of certainty.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> I've never seen this elitist attitude of iPod users. I don't know how an iPod has anything to do with the Mac vs. PC debates as the iPod is merely a media playback device. Most of the iPod owners I know use them with Windows anyway.


If you only knew how much ridicule I get for owning a Zune... :meh:


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

cfusionpm said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > I've never seen this elitist attitude of iPod users. I don't know how an iPod has anything to do with the Mac vs. PC debates as the iPod is merely a media playback device. Most of the iPod owners I know use them with Windows anyway.
> ...


So you're the guy, I was wondering who bought it.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 23, 2009)

In the past 3 years of owning it, I've met 2 of the other 9 Zune owners. :hug::


----------



## SpeedTrap (Dec 23, 2009)

I am not bashing Mac, I have infact owned one, and yes I liked it, but at the time the software support was just not at the level I need for the time. It is better now, but I do not want to re-purchase all of my software.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> ...but I do not want to re-purchase all of my software.


 
That's the real problem.  It's kinda like switching between Canon and Nikon.

My younger son is the only person that I know that made the switch with zero pain.  He had been using a 12-year old Mac that I gave him some five years ago.  It was beginning to show its age and he wanted a bit more speed.  HOWEVER, he uses his home machine ONLY for web browsing, email and one single Excel spread sheet (his finances).  He bought a $400 Windoze laptop with one of the several cheapo apps that opens Excel.  His only other expense was whatever he paid for virus protection.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> His only other expense was whatever he paid for virus protection.


Who pays for that when Avast! is free?


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

cfusionpm said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > His only other expense was whatever he paid for virus protection.
> ...


Why use 3rd party?

http://www.microsoft.com/Security_Essentials/

I use Security Essentials on my Windows 7 machine.


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.
> ...



I think you missed quite a bit of my point. First, there was never any hatred like there has been since around the time of the ipod. You can compare it to Nikon vs Canon. Yes there are Nikon vs Canon debates and they get heated but in general those groups do not hate each other. A 'typical' apple lemming literally with everything in their soul hates Microsoft users. To the point that they will stop being friends with someone just because they use Microsoft. A typical Mac user you meet at Starbucks is literally a brainwashed moron. You'll always have the brand banter but the apple lemming somewhere along the line decided that they could quit their jobs and start wearing hemp for a living and they are now higher than the rest of society. If you use a Microsoft device then you must be shunned.

I guess instead of using the ipod as a time frame reference I should just use i. Prior to iwhatever no one cared. It was no more than a intel/amd or nikon/canon debate. Now... saying something bad about a mac is like punching a mac user's mother in the face. It's that insulting to them. And they won't stand for it since they are better than you. Anything coming from Microsoft users is lash back from the ridiculous attacks from the mac side.

It sounds ridiculous but it's true. That is a typical apple user and it's encouraged by apple itself. You can see they dynamic in the commercials. Apple commercials are vigilant against the Microsoft user base. Where Microsoft's commercials just explain a situation where they found a PC worked better for them. (Current ad campaigns)

I'm a proponent of windows because it's the best solution for everyday computing. You can do everything on a PC. You can't do everything on mac. You can't do everything on a linux box. There is a reason why 10 years after the i movement mac still hasn't broken 10% market share. However, I'm a much bigger fan of linux than any other OS. Mint is my preferred OS and as I said before if I could play CSS and run my photo software on it then I wouldn't own a Windows machine.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

cfusionpm said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > His only other expense was whatever he paid for virus protection.
> ...



I said "whatever" because I have no clue what's involved with virus protection.  I have no clue what, if anything, he paid.  Remember - I've used Windoze machines but I've owned only Macs.


----------



## Plato (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > itznfb said:
> ...



You're the ridiculous moron here.


----------



## LokiZ (Dec 23, 2009)

Plato said:


> spudgunr said:
> 
> 
> > And of 31%, I bet you 90% of those are user error (as my issue was, and I knew I wasn't SUPPOSED to be doing what I was doing when I did it).
> ...



No but I know alot of people who use wrenches as a hammer and screwdrivers as pry bars or punches.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> A 'typical' apple lemming literally with everything in their soul hates Microsoft users. To the point that they will stop being friends with someone just because they use Microsoft. A typical Mac user you meet at Starbucks is literally a brainwashed moron.



:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


Thanks for letting me know I'm supposed to hate my friends who use Windows. Is "apple lemming" a love kind of thing? Considering your moronic attitude I thing I should re-write this quote, switching Microsoft and Mac around. You remind me of an idiot on this forum who called me a rich snob because I use Macs :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Now, in view of the fact that I don't patronize Starbucks (yeah, I make my own freaking coffee) where does that put me as a Mac user?

No need to answer really. I don't really care what you think.


*Can you all shut up now? My grocery store is running out of popcorn!*


----------



## LokiZ (Dec 23, 2009)

inTempus said:


> cfusionpm said:
> 
> 
> > Plato said:
> ...



I use 3rd party because I can and also because many times 3rd party tends not to be bloatware compared to some of the bigger names.  

I vote for companies who don't do sloppy programming, meaning just because machines are now faster and have more memory does not mean the programmers out there should use more resources just because they are there.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.


I got your point, I just don't happen to agree with it.

Your assessment sounds totally out in left field.  I travel all over the country due to my job and I interact with countless people regularly.  I have never seen anything to the degree you're talking about here.  Perhaps in middle schools and high schools around the nation there's kids acting this way, but I don't see it in adults in Starbucks or anywhere else.  



> It was something about the iPod that ruined that harmony though. For some reason these people honestly believe they are elite because they own an apple product and instantly grow this elitist disgust for anyone that doesn't conform.


Again, I haven't seen it.  And for all the vitriol you lay at the feet of Mac users, there's just as much coming from the Windows groupies.  Of course I'm talking about internet forums (which I suspect you are too) and not in "real life".  People tend to be more aggressive online than they do in real life.  I take what I read online with a grain of salt.  It certainly isn't representative of "real life" or how people typically interact with each other.



> I'm a proponent of windows because it's the best solution for everyday computing. You can do everything on a PC. You can't do everything on mac. You can't do everything on a linux box. There is a reason why 10 years after the i movement mac still hasn't broken 10% market share. However, I'm a much bigger fan of linux than any other OS. Mint is my preferred OS and as I said before if I could play CSS and run my photo software on it then I wouldn't own a Windows machine.


That's a pretty broad statement, one that's not even close to being accurate.  Had you said "for me" somewhere in there, then there would be nothing objectionable in your statement.

I can do everything with my Mac that I need to do without any exceptions.  As a matter of fact, my Mac gives me more flexibility.  Even our .NET developers switched to Mac because of its ease of use and Unix underpinnings.  

But I also realize OSX isn't for everyone anymore than Windows is.  Something you don't seem to grasp.

As for sales numbers, Mac is growing faster than most Windows system makers.  The last couple of years they have shown incredible growth annually.  

Healthy Mac sales growth fueled by 74% increase in desktops

Until OSX 10.x and their use of Intel chips, Mac was kind of stagnant.  Over the last several years their sales figures have blown all predictions and if the trend continues, they will grab up quite of bit of Windows shrinking market share.

Keep telling yourself Mac's are irrelevant.


----------



## keith foster (Dec 23, 2009)

InTempus, I admire how you carry on a debate.  Respectful, factual, and when you give your opinion you recognize it as an opinion.  Thank you.
I use both pc and macs.  I like pc because they are cheaper.  We have 4 laptops that allow us to surf, email and word process and spent around $3000 for all.
But when I get ready to start editing video I want my Mac.  I have been editing freelance for 5 years, started on a pc, tried a Mac 3 years ago at a conference I went to and I bought one the next day.  They cost more but it is worth it when you bill by the hour and the client wants the video today.  My Mac has never hiccupped with any video, my pc locked up all the time during edits and I had to work around problems all the time.
I think both systems have their place.


----------



## usayit (Dec 23, 2009)

* It doesn't have to be a Mac versus PC world.  
* SJobs lemmings and BGates lemmings can live in harmony.  
* A person who decides against following the current norm isn't an elitest.. just someone who made a different choice.  Those that say otherwise should be re-examining their own choices. 

If I recall, the same "us versus them" / "accused elitest" mentality existed when Windows began to take over the market over the various DOS incarnations.  


Windows lemming (he's a friend actually) was giving me a hard time because ME (a Mac user) passed up the iPhone for a Droid.  I explained that the Droid better fulfilled my needs for a smartphone and Mac better fulfilled my needs for computing.  Not a brand loyalist just a better shopper.


----------



## jbylake (Dec 23, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


>


Pls, Almighty, let this be so.....
There is an easy solution and answer to this whole thread.
If you prefer MAC as a solution to your needs, buy a MAC.
If Windows is a solution to your needs, buy a Windows Machine
If *nix is the solution to your needs, then by all means run a linux machine.
How many more times in the same thread can you say the same thing over and over, and still call it debate?
How many more times can a$$holes say I W I L L T Y P E S L O W L Y, and think they are showing superior intelect, instead of stunted, or underdeveloped conversational skills, debate tactics, or just don't know what an arse they really making of themselves.

Buy what you wan't, share your thoughts if you must, then let it die. Please.

J:lmao:


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

First of all... to the morons attacking me. Re-read my posts. I specifically stated the group of people I was talking about and excluded technical people who choose to use mac's because they actually like them. Anyone who denies the elitist Mac cult doesn't exist is naive or just likes to keep their head 10 ft in the ground.

To anyone denying this hatred didn't exist 10 years ago... you obviously didn't work in graphics, photojournalism or print shops. 



inTempus said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > They can't work together because of the mindset of the typical Mac user. I'm not accusing anyone here of this but it's true. Within the past 10 years the professional Starbucks websurfers have started a faddish elitist movement in which they truly believe they become a member of the socialite elites just because they became a SJobs lemming.
> ...



Twice this week I had a mac user get up, insult and leave Starbucks because I wouldn't leave. Without me saying a word. Once here in Pittsburgh and once down in Atlanta.

This happens constantly to me and I see it happen to others every day. These people literally treat non apple lemming like a lower class race. If you haven't experienced this then be happy you haven't. This is the first I've heard of someone not experiencing this in some way shape or form. 

I've never heard of a non-mac user attack or blatantly insult someone for no reason other than they haven't conformed with a ridiculous cult.




inTempus said:


> > It was something about the iPod that ruined that harmony though. For some reason these people honestly believe they are elite because they own an apple product and instantly grow this elitist disgust for anyone that doesn't conform.
> 
> 
> Again, I haven't seen it.  And for all the vitriol you lay at the feet of Mac users, there's just as much coming from the Windows groupies.  Of course I'm talking about internet forums (which I suspect you are too) and not in "real life".  People tend to be more aggressive online than they do in real life.  I take what I read online with a grain of salt.  It certainly isn't representative of "real life" or how people typically interact with each other.


Again.. I guess I didn't make this clear... I'm not talking about internet forums at all. I'm talking about the blatant disrespect I get from real people I deal with every day. The majority of it is subtle. But there are some that just directly insult people.

Then there are people that use Macs because they like the unix backend and don't care about the social aspect of it. These would be the technical people like I'm guessing the majority of the people on this forum are and the people I work with on my Sys Admin team. They even hate the 'mac' people. 



inTempus said:


> > I'm a proponent of windows because it's the best solution for everyday computing. You can do everything on a PC. You can't do everything on mac. You can't do everything on a linux box. There is a reason why 10 years after the i movement mac still hasn't broken 10% market share. However, I'm a much bigger fan of linux than any other OS. Mint is my preferred OS and as I said before if I could play CSS and run my photo software on it then I wouldn't own a Windows machine.
> 
> 
> That's a pretty broad statement, one that's not even close to being accurate.  Had you said "for me" somewhere in there, then there would be nothing objectionable in your statement.
> ...



How is it not close to accurate? You said yourself you can't play some games you like on your mac. No Sys Admin can do their job on a Mac without running in Windows all day long. The majority of people that game can't use them at all. And None of my printers, scanners, video recording equipment are compatible with mac. Of course I could buy other equipment but I couldn't switch now with out buying all new.

I never said they were irrelevant.

I'll say it again. My only probably with macs is the people that use them as described above.


----------



## jbylake (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> First of all... to the morons attacking me. Re-read my posts.


 
Oh well, guess my prayers weren't answered, or the answer was no.....:chatty:


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

jbylake said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > First of all... to the morons attacking me. Re-read my posts.
> ...



Well, I make a statement about a large group of people and exclude the majority of people on this forum from that group..... and they still act like I beat up their mother and personally attack me, what do you expect.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> Well, I make a statement about a large group of people and exclude the majority of people on this forum from that group..... and they still act like I beat up their mother and personally attack me, what do you expect.



:violin:

If you don't like getting whacked, don't try and whack people. Would you like a lollipop?


----------



## itznfb (Dec 23, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> itznfb said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I make a statement about a large group of people and exclude the majority of people on this forum from that group..... and they still act like I beat up their mother and personally attack me, what do you expect.
> ...



Are you retarded? That's exactly my point. I didn't say a thing about people here and you attack me as if I did. Maybe you're in that elitist group I speak of? Did I hit a little too close to home maybe? Well, now it's starting to make sense. I'm sorry I offended you by calling out your fake self proclaimed elite status in this world. Does that apology make you feel better?


----------



## Garbz (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok skipping to the end and missing all the infighting I still need to add my 2 cents.

Windows DVD not booting is not it's fault, it's yours.
Windows reading from the DVD that's in the drive after you boot it from the thumb drive, well that's just normal. I think you should turn in your geek card 
You say you can't find windows 7 drivers? Not it's fault either, and why don't you just install the Vista drivers. They have exactly the same driver framework.

In fact the only thing I can agree with you inTempus is that it's frigging retarded that you can't run an upgrade from any Windows Vista to 7, that's retarded. And your unfortunate Outlook experience, but again this is not necessarily fault of windows.

Let me just say I don't like windows much. The OSX experience is incredibly refined, and Vista makes me throw up. But Windows 7 has been nothing but flawless in my experience except for one bug in the first Beta, but that was fixed in the release candidate. I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> First of all... to the morons attacking me.


I didn't call you a moron, so calling me one (you said "morons" - plural) is sophomoric and uncalled for.  It's ironic you chastise Mac users for the very thing you're guilty of yourself. 



> Re-read my posts. I specifically stated the group of people I was talking about and excluded technical people who choose to use mac's because they actually like them. Anyone who denies the elitist Mac cult doesn't exist is naive or just likes to keep their head 10 ft in the ground.


...as if an "elitist" Windows cult doesn't exist.  You act like only Mac users are capable if such childish behavior.  It's that type of partisan non-sense that that destroys your argument.

There are idiots in this world, but you pretend the majority of the Mac users (except those on this forum - how handy) belong to this group.  It's complete non-sense.



> To anyone denying this hatred didn't exist 10 years ago... you obviously didn't work in graphics, photojournalism or print shops.


You're the one saying it wasn't bad 10 years ago and got worse just recently when the iPod craze took off.  Which is it?



> Twice this week I had a mac user get up, insult and leave Starbucks because I wouldn't leave. Without me saying a word. Once here in Pittsburgh and once down in Atlanta.


Your story makes absolutely no sense.  I can't make heads nor tails of your comment, but it sounds as though you're saying a Mac user was offended by your Windows machine being at Starbucks, insulted you because you "wouldn't leave",  then left himself.  Not once, but twice... the exact same scenario in two different cities and two difference Starbucks. 

Right.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and call BS.



> This happens constantly to me and I see it happen to others every day. These people literally treat non apple lemming like a lower class race. If you haven't experienced this then be happy you haven't. This is the first I've heard of someone not experiencing this in some way shape or form.


OMG, this is absolutely ridiculous.  Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps you're the problem?  It sounds to me like you go around looking for Mac users to get pissed off at.  I'm 41, I've worked in a technical field my entire life.  I've worked around and with people that used both types of systems and rarely does the OS you run even come up.  It certainly has never come up in a coffee shop by complete strangers.  That's ludicrous that you claim all this Mac hatred happens in "Starbucks" around the nation.



> I've never heard of a non-mac user attack or blatantly insult someone for no reason other than they haven't conformed with a ridiculous cult.


Of course not, Mac users are insane lunatics - obviously.  All Windows users are perfectly sane.  This lunacy on the part of Mac users is well documented, there are articles about it... made for television movies about it... books about it.  There are even self defense courses springing up nationwide for PC users.





> Again.. I guess I didn't make this clear... I'm not talking about internet forums at all. I'm talking about the blatant disrespect I get from real people I deal with every day. The majority of it is subtle. But there are some that just directly insult people.


Oh yes, I'm sure.  You're the first person I've ever make this ridiculous claim.  Assuming you're not making all this up, I suspect there's something you're doing that's drawing the ire of the Mac users you run into at Starbucks.



> How is it not close to accurate? You said yourself you can't play some games you like on your mac.


I didn't say I can't play games on my Mac, I said I was thinking of a Windows machine for gaming.  I don't need a Windows machine for gaming.  I just like computers so I wanted something with Windows (which I have as once again I'm tying this on Windows 7).

You made a statement of fact that Macs can not do everything people need them to do.  That's 100% inaccurate as there are millions of Mac users who do everything they need with their Macs.  



> No Sys Admin can do their job on a Mac without running in Windows all day long. The majority of people that game can't use them at all.


Not true.  I know plenty of people that game on Macs.  I gamed on my 24" 2.8ghz iMac (Battlefield 2) regularly.



> And None of my printers, scanners, video recording equipment are compatible with mac. Of course I could buy other equipment but I couldn't switch now with out buying all new.


What printers and scanners are you using (model numbers)?  I've yet to see a current printer or scanner that wasn't supported by both systems.



> I never said they were irrelevant.


Really, who typed this then?



> I'm a proponent of windows because it's the best solution for everyday computing. You can do everything on a PC. You can't do everything on mac.





> I'll say it again. My only probably with macs is the people that use them as described above.


Which I believe is mostly imagined.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

Garbz said:


> Windows DVD not booting is not it's fault, it's yours.


Really, how do you figure?  It might be the fault of the hardware, but I didn't do anything to prevent it from working.  It loaded XP and Visa from the same drive just fine.  Now that Windows 7 is installed, it also works just fine.


----------



## inTempus (Dec 23, 2009)

itznfb said:


> Are you retarded?


That's an attack.



> I didn't say a thing about people here and you attack me as if I did.


You called several of us "morons".  Note the "s" at the end.  You didn't just respond to Plato, who called you a moron first, but you took it a step further and called others "morons" too.  I know I didn't call you any names, so why did you attack me personally?  I have to assume I'm in the group of "morons" as it's mostly you and I taking part in this exchange.


----------



## cfusionpm (Dec 24, 2009)

Garbz said:


> In fact the only thing I can agree with you inTempus is that it's frigging retarded that you can't run an upgrade from any Windows Vista to 7, that's retarded.


But you can. And in fact, I did the impossible, apparently. I upgraded from Vista 32 bit to 7 64 bit without having to format the drive. I was under the impression that only a wipe and clean install would let me put 7 on my machine, but all my files were kept in the Windows.old folder. However this was installing from disc. If you try to upgrade using the digitalriver direct download, it will only work if upgrading from 32 bit Vista to 32 bit 7 or 64 bit Vista to 64 bit 7. And that was an issue which prolonged my ability to upgrade; going from 32 -> 64. I downloaded mine on the launch, but couldnt install it till my disc arrived in the mail about a week and a half later. There were workarounds like making a bootable disc from an ISO of the file, but I preferred to wait for my legitemate disc (which was 40$ shipped with my student/alum discount).

All in all Windows 7 absolutely flys on my computer. I finally have my full 4gb of ram (as opposed to the 3gb limit), things run smoother, and every app seems snappier and quicker. It sucks to have issues with things, but other than my weird installing problem, Windows 7 has been smooth sailing for me.

I would also like to take this opportunity to distance myself from the radical Mac haters out there. I have my reasons for disliking them, and most of them are cost-related or business decisions on Apple's part. The elitism douchebaggary, while fun to poke at, probably doesnt represent Mac users as a whole. I think the only thing I truely hate about Apple was something brought up a few pages back; about how their entire ad campaign is based on trash talking Windows PCs. And if one has to sink to that kind of level to sell a product, then I can only consider them bullying asshats who don't have enough confidence in their computers to be able to sell them on their own merit. When was the last time you saw an iPod ad saying how horrible other media players are? And how many do you see of people enjoying a product and its features?


----------



## xxBURT0Nxx (Dec 24, 2009)

my .02

Always used PC's growing up, finally switched to a mac about a year ago.  I was looking for a new computer and figured might as well make the switch because I didn't like Vista and didn't want to wait for 7 and the beta/RC was a little too buggy imo to rely on as a full time OS.

Ran 10.5 for a little, then upgraded to 10.6 when it came out.  IMO, os x is much more reliable.  Boots everytime, never have to select safe mode or run a memory test, etc.  I also personally think that I am more productive in os x which is kind of surprising.  Playing around with it at the Apple store and stuff on occasion I always felt it was counterintuitive to what I already knew on windows but after playing around with it and learning some of the shortcuts I am much faster and efficient on my mac than on any PC.

Also, as far as the price differences, I really don't think macs are that much more expensive.  You pay a slight premium, but you are getting a very nice computer.  Plus, you don't need to max out all specs on a mac to compete with a PC.  Would definitely not run a PC with less than 2gb of ram, and would always shoot for 4, but with macs run fine with only 2gb.  Even played around with some powerbooks and g4s with 1gb of ram and they still run better than most win machines.

Windows just has a lot of annyoing quirks and after upgrading at least 5 machines to win 7 this week I am happy to be a mac user.  Never had so many problems just getting the system to boot from a CD, not freeze during installation, etc.  2 times I would do a reformat on the drive, try to install win 7 and it would tell me i couldn't because it was an upgrade and the computer didn't have a previous license so i had to go back and reinstall either vista or win 7 rc1, then  reformat again and reinstall win 7 pro.  I've upgraded 3 or 4 macs to snowleopard and have yet to run into a problem.  NOT saying that macs don't have problems, but to be honest i am way less frustrated with my mac and never have to go around googling error codes and reading through pages of forums to get something to work.

I also can't fathom why we need so many versions of windows 7.  My brother just got a new dell and ended up grabbing a netbook with it for my dad which came with Win 7 starter.  WTF is the point of that, can't change your backgrounds, can only run a handful of prgrams at one time, etc.  crippling the os like that just so you can sell it for cheaper and then when people realize how ****ty it is then you can charge them to upgrade it.... why ms?

Everything stated above is my opinion, and should be taken as such.  I am not saying that macs never have problems or that windows is the worst, but to be honest mac just works, whereas with windows i have to do the work.

I also


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## usayit (Dec 24, 2009)

xxBURT0Nxx said:


> My brother just got a new dell and ended up grabbing a netbook with it for my dad which came with Win 7 starter.  WTF is the point of that, can't change your backgrounds, can only run a handful of prgrams at one time, etc.  crippling the os like that just so you can sell it for cheaper and then when people realize how ****ty it is then you can charge them to upgrade it.... why ms?



This is an ongoing thing with netbooks....  (I have one too..)

Netbooks have three things going for them:
* price (must be below entry laptops)
* footprint (must be easier to carry than a laptop)
* battery power (must last longer than the laptop).

One of the difficult things manufacturers of netbooks have to address is the first one; price.  The license cost charged by Microsoft Windows eats into that margin quite a bit.  This is why the initial netbooks were mostly sold with some sort of linux variant.  

For Windows 7, MS offers the starter version at a discounted version.  Think about it.. Win7 home is $200 which is 50% the cost of most netbooks.  btw... you can update to the full version for around $80.


But yes... the number of versions os Windows is insane and makes it difficult to support from both IT and development standpoint.




btw.. My netbook ... runs Mac.


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## inTempus (Dec 24, 2009)

xxBURT0Nxx said:


> Windows just has a lot of annyoing quirks and after upgrading at least 5 machines to win 7 this week I am happy to be a mac user.  Never had so many problems just getting the system to boot from a CD, not freeze during installation, etc.  2 times I would do a reformat on the drive, try to install win 7 and it would tell me i couldn't because it was an upgrade and the computer didn't have a previous license so i had to go back and reinstall either vista or win 7 rc1, then  reformat again and reinstall win 7 pro.  I've upgraded 3 or 4 macs to snowleopard and have yet to run into a problem.  NOT saying that macs don't have problems, but to be honest i am way less frustrated with my mac and never have to go around googling error codes and reading through pages of forums to get something to work.


Sounds like my experience to the letter.  How strange, you must have done everything wrong like I did.  

It's funny, I've upgraded several Mac's to new OS's and not once did I have any problems with drivers, compatibility, drives mysteriously not working, cryptic error codes, etc.

When I was a hardcore Windows user I was used to having to troubleshoot things.  It's just part of the Windows life.  I thought perhaps things had improved considerably since XP and Vista.  In my experience, they haven't.

But, now that I have Windows 7 installed I must say I like it MUCH more than previous versions of Windows.  I'm enjoying learning all the in's and out's of the new OS.

I am getting a new Windows machine this week.  My Dell is running great now and is even pretty quick, but I want something faster.  I don't think I'll ditch OSX in favor of Windows as I still plan to replace my primary system with a 27" iMac next year.


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## Mike_E (Dec 24, 2009)

I've got Win 7 on my laptop and love it.  Not a single hitch.

I didn't like vista much but am still running XP on my desktop without issues either.

Barring an actual hardware issue and you don't install every gimmicky program that comes along (or BEM attack- it does help to stay behind a router) if you clean the registry half as often as you clean your lens you can go for years with out problems.  I have.


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## inTempus (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh, and I have been pricing new Dells with 27" monitors to compare to the iMac 27" I plan to buy.  The price between Dell and Apple is about the same.  Actually, with a monitor of comparable size, the Dell will cost me a little more.

I realize you can build your own system for less typically but I like to order complete systems and have them delivered.  The system I'm picking up (today perhaps) is a parts machine.  My buddy who helped me get W7 installed ordered some parts through work for me and I'll be putting it together this afternoon I hope (depends on how long my wife's "honey-do" list is).


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## inTempus (Dec 24, 2009)

Mike_E said:


> Iif you clean the registry half as often as you clean your lens you can go for years with out problems.  I have.


...another thing I appreciate about Mac's.  With my Windows machines I learned you had to do regular maintenance work to keep them running smoothly.  

I've yet to do any maintenance on my Mac's (over 4 years) outside of deleting applications. There's no need for defragging, cleaning registries, etc.  It's pretty nice.

Heck, I can't even remember the last time I had to reboot my Mac desktop... With Windows I found myself rebooting regularly - not that it's that big of an issue.


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## jbylake (Dec 24, 2009)

inTempus said:


> Mike_E said:
> 
> 
> > Iif you clean the registry half as often as you clean your lens you can go for years with out problems. I have.
> ...


 
I was hoping this thread was dead, but you brought up an interesting point.  First let me restate what I said earlier in this post.  If you like MAC's and the MAC OS, then by all means use a MAC.  Same for Windows, same for Linux.  Although I like a bit of all of them, I use Windows, because of some of the proprietary software, that I must use, is only available for the Windows platform.

I like MAC's disk configuration.  Never needs defragmenting, by design.  Very cool.  I really don't find myself needing to defrag Windows often, but it's still something you have to do, eventually.  I think when SDD drives are available, that are large enough, and inexpensive enough, that issue will be solved for all platforms.

J.:mrgreen:


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## inTempus (Dec 24, 2009)

I have my new Windows 7 machine.  The install on the new machine went smooth, no issues.  Here I go spending the next day or so reinstalling everything.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 24, 2009)

cfusionpm said:


> I think the only thing I truely hate about Apple was something brought up a few pages back; about how their entire ad campaign is based on trash talking Windows PCs. And if one has to sink to that kind of level to sell a product, then I can only consider them bullying asshats who don't have enough confidence in their computers to be able to sell them on their own merit.



Must make voting hard comes election time :lmao: considering both sides of the political cesspool are mostly throwing sh*t at each other in their ad campaigns...




usayit said:


> xxBURT0Nxx said:
> 
> 
> > My brother just got a new dell and ended up grabbing a netbook with it for my dad which came with Win 7 starter.  WTF is the point of that, can't change your backgrounds, can only run a handful of prgrams at one time, etc.  crippling the os like that just so you can sell it for cheaper and then when people realize how ****ty it is then you can charge them to upgrade it.... why ms?
> ...



A Netbook is not a laptop! You get what you pay for. If you want a laptop, get one. In case you haven't noticed, Mac does not have a Netbook. Why? Probably because they realized that those darn stupid things were going to kill the Laptop business. Every thing I read about Netbooks seems to say that is the case.

The Mac OS has one version and one only. They don't seem to feel a need to  reel you in with an OS version that doesn't do much so that you will later buy another, more complete version.




inTempus said:


> Oh, and I have been pricing new Dells with 27" monitors to compare to the iMac 27" I plan to buy.  The price between Dell and Apple is about the same.  Actually, with a monitor of comparable size, the Dell will cost me a little more.
> 
> I realize you can build your own system for less typically but I like to order complete systems and have them delivered.  The system I'm picking up (today perhaps) is a parts machine.  My buddy who helped me get W7 installed ordered some parts through work for me and I'll be putting it together this afternoon I hope (depends on how long my wife's "honey-do" list is).



It has been said for years that comparable Windows machines are not any less expensive than Macs. I'm sure one can save money by building their own machine BUT, I'm like you inTempus, I am not a computer nerd and I am not interested in becoming one (too busy doing other, "more important" things) so I want a machine that works right out of the box. I plug it in and I'm on my way.

And I've noticed that the Windows people who most hate Macs are the ones who build. But they seem to forget that the vast majority of Windows users are just like you and me. They don't know how to build a machine, don't even care. They just want to plug and play...




jbylake said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > Mike_E said:
> ...



Maintenance? What the hell is that? Never done any. But don't forget that, just like viruses, few people write stupid little apps for Macs that end up chocking your system to death. Come on, the average Windows user is always adding cute little this, cute little that until the darn thing crawls on its knees and they pay my neighbor (and friend, do I dare say that?) to clean it up.


*Use whatever you want and let's close this thread!

May the next person to start such a thread be banned for all eternity!*


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## Garbz (Dec 24, 2009)

inTempus said:


> Garbz said:
> 
> 
> > Windows DVD not booting is not it's fault, it's yours.
> ...



Well not your fault as much as the fault of the bios. I assume the DVD wouldn't boot at all? There's nothing on the Windows 7 DVD that sets it apart from a Linux install DVD. I have heard a lot of complaints about the install process itself, but never heard anyone who couldn't actually boot the DVD to begin with. 


Anyway hope you have fun with the re-installing. God I need to do that on my dad's computer. What a fun way to spend Christmas ... NOT .



c.cloudwalker said:


> I'm sure one can save money by building their own machine BUT, I'm like you inTempus, I am not a computer nerd and I am not interested in becoming one (too busy doing other, "more important" things) so I want a machine that works right out of the box. I plug it in and I'm on my way.



One interesting thing most people don't realise is that there is no difference between a PC and a MAC. MACs are PCs, and as such the hackintosh crowd has ensured that you can readily install OSX on commodity hardware. So now not only is there no difference between pre-assembled options, but there is also no difference between build your own PCs. I have happily used a hackintosh as a fun project for the past year, and it runs just as well as any other system.



jbylake said:


> I like MAC's disk configuration.  Never needs defragmenting, by design.  Very cool.  I really don't find myself needing to defrag Windows often, but it's still something you have to do, eventually.



That word disk configuration is key. My windows system never gets fragmented either. I don't constantly write and delete off my system drive. It's all about how your data is arranged. Windows doesn't exactly tell you this in the setup admittedly. HFS dynamically re-assigns data to suit. This is not too different from running a basic and rough defragment in the background. Your maintenance is simply done for you automatically, which is something that can quite easily be set up on any machine.


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## usayit (Dec 24, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> A Netbook is not a laptop! You get what you pay for. If you want a laptop, get one. In case you haven't noticed, Mac does not have a Netbook. Why? Probably because they realized that those darn stupid things were going to kill the Laptop business. Every thing I read about Netbooks seems to say that is the case.



WTF dude??? its the Holidays... cool the F down.   If I were the admin of this forum I'd ban your rear end for the day.  

If you actually read my post, I was actually explaining why netbooks are shipped with the stripped down version of Windows 7 Starter.  It all comes down to pricing. 

* I was not arguing or stating the merits of a  netbook.  

* Nor I also didn't say anything about a Mac Netbook either.

* Nor did I push a recommendation of a netbook.

* Nor did I push a mac netbook (which doesn't exist)

* Nor did I even mention a single word about comparing a Laptop versus Netbook (they both have a distinct market).


Go get drunk... come back another day... stop being pissy.  

MY POST WASN"T DIRECTED TOWARDS YOU..

And no... I don't agree with a single word of your response.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 24, 2009)

Cool the F down? Ban me for saying that Netbooks are not laptops? Are you sure I'm the one who needs a drink?

I will grant you that my post didn't make it clear I wasn't addressing you but I believe you are more pissy than I am. Cheers.

I was addressing xxBURT0Nxx and used your post to make the point, however badly. So I will apologize for using your post badly.

And now I will await yours. This may be a "the Holidays" for you but it is not for me. And it is extremely arrogant of you to think that your "Holidays" are everybody else's.


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## usayit (Dec 24, 2009)

Good luck waiting...

Happy Holidays  (its not mine either but I still take part in the time.. not being arrogant just being human).


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 24, 2009)

As I thought.


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## usayit (Dec 24, 2009)

If you stopped at "wait for yours.", I would have considered but an apology amidst an insult isn't an apology at all...   So yeh.. I'll take the arrogant remark and you can keep your apology.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 24, 2009)

:hug::


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## Dao (Dec 24, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I will grant you that my post didn't make it clear I wasn't addressing you but I believe you are more pissy than I am. Cheers.



hum ..  it does seem to address to usayit since you quote his post.   

But then again, it is holidays and we should all step back and chill out a little bit.  Let's have a beer! :cheers:

I believe the problem is not Windows nor Mac, it is InTempus ... hahahahaha you started all this!!


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## kundalini (Dec 24, 2009)

Dao said:


> .........we should all step back and chill out a little bit. Let's have a beer! :cheers:


I prefer tequila...... but, Cheers....   



> I believe the problem is not Windows nor Mac, it is InTempus ... hahahahaha you started all this!!


 It's not the first and I highly doubt it to be the last either.     Hell, I even started "in Tempus and Derrel" thread (in Off Topic), but I see now that I should have included itznfb as well.  Argumentative lot, they are, but good for a laugh from the sidelines.


I was going to purchase another desktop next year primarily for photos and music, but now I'm so confused I don't know which way to go.  Should I become an elitist and learn a new system or should I stay in the dark ages with Windows?  I just don't know....


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## Dao (Dec 24, 2009)

Do I need to start a tequila vs beer thread?   LOL


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## itznfb (Dec 24, 2009)

inTempus you usually make rational arguments but you're either in denial or you just created this thread because you wanted to take part in an on going battle because you knew this thread would turn out like before you even created it.

To deny the Mac cult is insane in itself. Just google 'Mac cult' and you will finds thousands of sites dedicated to the hatred of anything non apple. Now google Windows cult, or linux cult and you will find nothing of the sort. A lot of these sites even brag about non-apple users they harass during the day. Again, I'm not making this up. You're just in denial that such ridiculousness exists.

And just to clear things up since you don't read my posts, I didn't call you a moron. Wasn't even remotely directed towards you.

And come on Dao.... everyone knows tequila is the end all be all to getting smashed...


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## usayit (Dec 24, 2009)

Yup there isn't a major Windows cult following.. why? because its the current market leader.   Cults are formed when there is a minority group looking for others of similar interests not aligned with the popular norm.

Don't kid yourself... there are just as many Windows and linux users ranting about the neighbor on the other side of the fence.  

Even amoung Mac users... the cult'sh thingy isn't common... I think that's what inTempus was referring too.

I love Mac because it is a good O/S.  i could care less of the branding.  No I don't own an iPhone because I didn't like it.  Hell.. I even have a Microsoft Keyboard (Natural) and a non-apple mouse attached.  I think the majority of us Mac users aren't in that dumb cult movement... most make intelligent choices.  This probably includes inTempus and I think he just didn't like being grouped in with the cult thingy.  



Actually... Linux users generally don't rant too much about Mac and have quite a bit in common with Mac... hmm?


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## inTempus (Dec 24, 2009)

itznfb said:


> inTempus you usually make rational arguments but you're either in denial or you just created this thread because you wanted to take part in an on going battle because you knew this thread would turn out like before you even created it.


Oh yes, accuse me of trolling.  I guess if all else fails...



> To deny the Mac cult is insane in itself. Just google 'Mac cult' and you will finds thousands of sites dedicated to the hatred of anything non apple. Now google Windows cult, or linux cult and you will find nothing of the sort. A lot of these sites even brag about non-apple users they harass during the day. Again, I'm not making this up. You're just in denial that such ridiculousness exists.


I never said lunatics don't exist.  I don't deny that there are crazies in the Mac camp but you, once again, deny that there are crazies in the Windows camp.  Why is that?  

It's ironic that you use the term "cult of Mac".  That term was coined by fanatic Windows users who hate everything about Mac's and Mac users.   As you note, there aren't any "I hate Windows users" websites created by Mac users that are easily Googled.  But we can find all sorts of "cult of Mac" websites... why is that?  It seems to me your own evidence suggests it's the Windows users spewing all the hatred.  If it were as you claim, you would think the internet would be awash with "cult of Windows" websites created by Mac users.

You sit here and tell what I believe are fictitious stories about being accosted by Mac users in "Starbucks" in two different cities... and the incidents, according to you, were nearly identical.

That's the Windows users fanaticism I'm talking about.  You're so compelled to rip on Mac users you feel the need to resort to making up stories about them attacking you in coffee shops around the country *regularly*.



> And just to clear things up since you don't read my posts, I didn't call you a moron. Wasn't even remotely directed towards you.


Oh, I read them.  I also called you on your BS and you don't like it.  But few people do, so I can't fault you for that.  

By the way, who's the other "moron" in this thread if it's not me?  Remember, you said *morons* and Plato and I are the only two debating this with you.



> And come on Dao.... everyone knows tequila is the end all be all to getting smashed...


That much we can agree on.

Merry Christmas by the way.


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## CxThree (Dec 24, 2009)

Merry Christmas to everyone.  Even you Mac people.


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## Montana (Dec 24, 2009)

LOL.  Tim is a troll!  I knew it all along.  He even has a troll website dedicated to trolling (and I ain't talking fishing.......):lmao:


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