# A New Pricing Problem



## flipsidestudio (Jul 23, 2008)

At least, this is a new problem for me.  Hopefully some of you can give me your opinions so I know where to go from here.

Basically, I'm doing a job for a spa to take promo and advertisement photos because they are making it into a franchise company.  I'll be photographing many of the rooms, procedures and the storefront.  I'm currently guessing that the owner will want about 50 shots but he hasn't gotten me the shot list yet.

The problem I'm having is that he wants high res digital copies of the photos.  I know that many photographer refuse to do this, and I normally do too but I've been getting this request more and more often these days.  What I've decided to do is essentially sell him the copyrights to the photos with a few restrictions that will be outlined in a contract.  Mainly, I'll have full use of the photos and he cannot sell them.

I'm stuck as to how to price this because I normally will not sell my copyrights.  I am a pretty new photographer also so I'm using this job as a chance for me to apply everything I've learned so far about location and lighting.  I think I can do a good job with it, but it will be a big learning experience for me so I don't feel the need to charge him too much as I want the deal to be fair for both of us.

So, limited copyrights to about 50 photos.  What do you guys think?  2k? Less? More?

Any other suggestions are welcome as well.


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## astrostu (Jul 23, 2008)

Have you done something like this before (without the rights part)?  If so, use your standard fee and I would add 25-50%.  I'm always questioning whether to charge more  and risk pricing myself out of a sale / making people think I'm gouging them or to just charge less.  Can't help you there.

I'm not sure what I would charge for a job like that.  Though keep in mind, I don't speak from experience.  I would suggest figuring out what the usage will be for your photos.  Will they be in a brochure people can pick up at the place and at hotels?  Will it be a 10,000 print run or 10,000,000?  Or will it also be in magazines?  Will they use the in industry trade shows?  Will they use them for many years or just for 1 year?  In other words, more usage -> more profits for them -> you should charge more.

Another question is if they will credit you when using them.  If they'll include a tiny 6-pt line saying, "Photographed by ..." then it may be worth it to you to charge less since you'd get more exposure.  In fact, if you want to charge more, and they weren't willing to do this, it could be a negotiating point for you to bring your price down.

I realize your answer to my usage question will probably be that they'll have unlimited usage (other than selling them) since they'll be getting the digital copies (which I don't think is particularly unreasonable given the advertising business these days is all done on computers).  If that's the case, then you should probably price it higher than you otherwise would even if they weren't getting the digital copies - just because it's HUGE usage rights for them.


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 23, 2008)

astrostu said:


> Have you done something like this before (without the rights part)?  If so, use your standard fee and I would add 25-50%.  I'm always questioning whether to charge more  and risk pricing myself out of a sale / making people think I'm gouging them or to just charge less.  Can't help you there.
> 
> I'm not sure what I would charge for a job like that.  Though keep in mind, I don't speak from experience.  I would suggest figuring out what the usage will be for your photos.  Will they be in a brochure people can pick up at the place and at hotels?  Will it be a 10,000 print run or 10,000,000?  Or will it also be in magazines?  Will they use the in industry trade shows?  Will they use them for many years or just for 1 year?  In other words, more usage -> more profits for them -> you should charge more.
> 
> ...


Well I think the issue for me is going to be a starting point for the pricing.  Normally for jobs like this I wouldn't charge that much since I am trying to build a name, maybe 1,200 flat rate at most.  That said, I haven't done too many jobs like this yet.


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## craig (Jul 23, 2008)

Afraid to say that I have more questions then answers for you. 

Why would you not give the client full res digital images? Why would you want full use of the images and not the client? If this is a learning experience and you do not feel the need to charge too much... why not give the work away? How did you come up with 2k for the job?

Keep in mind that a lot of research needs to go into each bid. Speak with the client and figure out his usage needs. From there consider the quality and the time spent on each image. Look at it this way. If you blow the bid and or the photos, chances of you working again just got slimmer. 

Love & Bass


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 25, 2008)

craig said:


> Afraid to say that I have more questions then answers for you.
> 
> Why would you not give the client full res digital images? Why would you want full use of the images and not the client? If this is a learning experience and you do not feel the need to charge too much... why not give the work away? How did you come up with 2k for the job?
> 
> ...


First of all, I simply can't afford to give my work away.  This is the first promo job of this type for me so it's the first time I've ever considered giving the client digital images.  I usually work with a print lab and prints tend to be where I make the most money.

And I'm trying not to blow the bid, thus my asking for advice here.


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## craig (Jul 25, 2008)

My point is that asking advice here, with so little information given by you is kind of point less. Spill some more info and we will be able to help further.

)'(


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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

Look,

High res images are the norm. What the hell is your client going to do with web-sized jpgs? God forbid they want to print a poster or a duratrans for the storefront.

Now about copyrights and usage rights. Giving away the copyright is not unheard of for the right price. After all, they're paying you for the images. Therefore, it's not unreasonable for them to own the images. Besides, what are _you_ going to do with them? Sell them as stock? 

Bear in mind that copy rights and usage rights are completely separate things. So you have two options.

1) Give them the copyright and ask for an unlimited usage license to use the photos for advertising your business/put in your portfolio.
2) Tell them you want to retain the copyright but grant them unlimited usage rights for their business, and agree that you won't resell the photos as stock.


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## Bifurcator (Jul 25, 2008)

Math error alert.

If there's 2 things there should be 4 options.


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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> Math error alert.
> 
> If there's 2 things there should be 4 options.



Well fortunately I wasn't speaking math, I was speaking english.


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Look,
> 
> High res images are the norm. What the hell is your client going to do with web-sized jpgs? God forbid they want to print a poster or a duratrans for the storefront.
> 
> ...


Okay, thanks for giving me something useful to go on.  I appreciate your help.  What I've decided to do is the first option, my issue still is how to charge for it though as I haven't really done this before.  Given this guy's last email it sounds like he was expecting me to give him the photos for no additional cost, which as I said before I can't afford to do.  My other issue is I know that he will be making a pretty substantial profit using these photos so I would feel taken advantage of if I were to give them away.

One other question: I'm writing up a contract saying I'm giving him copyrights and listing what I am able to use the photos for.  Is there anything other than the contract that you would suggest I have when giving them copyrights?


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

The actual contract should specify the copyright issue. The usage licensing should be separate, where you ask them to grant you the usage of the images.

I'm still a little confused over this "I can't afford to" stuff. You can't afford to what? What are you losing by giving them the images and retaining a license? Like I said, there's little you can do with them other than sell them as stock and even then you wouldn't make much. What are you really giving up? And what's that worth to you?


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> The actual contract should specify the copyright issue. The usage licensing should be separate, where you ask them to grant you the usage of the images.
> 
> I'm still a little confused over this "I can't afford to" stuff. You can't afford to what? What are you losing by giving them the images and retaining a license? Like I said, there's little you can do with them other than sell them as stock and even then you wouldn't make much. What are you really giving up? And what's that worth to you?


It's not what I'm giving up, it's the fact that I'm not rich and I can't afford to spend time doing photoshoots and post processing for free.


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

Granted, but all I'm saying is that if they're paying you well either way, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to give up the copyright.


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Granted, but all I'm saying is that if they're paying you well either way, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to give up the copyright.


Oh yeah, well I don't really have an issue with that at this point.  I'm just wondering where I should start as far as negotiating how I'm paid.


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## fotokman (Jul 26, 2008)

Find out how the images will be used, If in print ask how many copies will be made. Charge for the copies as the usage, and charge for the files separately. Also insist you keep the rights to your images, just allow them to use them as long as they follow the guidelines of your contract .  I get with my lawyer on issues of this sort.


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## craig (Jul 26, 2008)

flipsidestudio said:


> Oh yeah, well I don't really have an issue with that at this point.  I'm just wondering where I should start as far as negotiating how I'm paid.



First you will have to figure out your over head. Then consider wear and tear on the gear. Most importantly you must figure out how much your time is worth and how much time you put into each image and or the whole shoot.

Love & Bass


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## cdanddvdpublisher (Jul 27, 2008)

Since this is your first job in this arena, treat as both a learning curve and promo. Charge what is a fair price for time, materials, wear and tear etc. Quote a standard price with a nominal charge for either usage or copyright - win/win. With experience and reputation come higher prices and the ability to sell copyright at premium prices. 

From what you have said, I don't think your in a position to set a premium price.


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 27, 2008)

Hrm....well okay I guess I figure something out.  I'm not about to set a premium on my photos, I realize I'm not at a point where I can do that yet, but I also need to pay rent.  

I'm still waiting for an idea of how many photos he wants to end up with and what kind of usage they'll get so I guess I'm not ready to give him a bid anyways.  

Thanks for the help


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## cdanddvdpublisher (Jul 28, 2008)

flipsidestudio said:


> Hrm....well okay I guess I figure something out.  I'm not about to set a premium on my photos, I realize I'm not at a point where I can do that yet, but I also need to pay rent.
> 
> I'm still waiting for an idea of how many photos he wants to end up with and what kind of usage they'll get so I guess I'm not ready to give him a bid anyways.
> 
> Thanks for the help



Don't be disheartened - every professional worth his salt started out with similar problems to yours. It is all a business curve that can be a real eye opener. Your not just a professional, your also a business person - they can be hard to to meet in the middle sometimes.

It is always a fight between paying the bills and signing the deal. It takes years of experience to get there - your at the start - it will get easier over time

luck be with you


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## reg (Jul 29, 2008)

cdanddvdpublisher said:


> Your not just a professional, your also a business person




And what, exactly, does that insinuate?


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## flipsidestudio (Jul 29, 2008)

cdanddvdpublisher said:


> Don't be disheartened - every professional worth his salt started out with similar problems to yours. It is all a business curve that can be a real eye opener. Your not just a professional, your also a business person - they can be hard to to meet in the middle sometimes.
> 
> It is always a fight between paying the bills and signing the deal. It takes years of experience to get there - your at the start - it will get easier over time
> 
> luck be with you


Thanks, I think my issue these days is I'm anxious to move past the "getting into the business so you have to take a loss" phase as I feel like I've been doing that a while. I'm impatient what can I say?


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## cofphoto (Aug 3, 2008)

I didn't read any of the other replies, so excuse me if this is redundant...but be careful about how you spell out the release.  Many people new to photography are giving clients "copyright releases".  Bear in mind that if you release the copyright, then YOU would have to get THEIR permission to use the photos on your website, marketing material, etc.  

When we sell digitals to clients we give them "full reproductive rights" and spell out in the release that while they are able to do whatever they want as far as printing photos, they are not allowed to sell the images, and we are still able to use them in our portfolio, advertisements, etc.


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