# How the heck do I light/shoot this?!



## Destin (Dec 13, 2011)

Okay, so there's this place called Rays Mtb in Cleveland, OH that I go to with my mountain biking team a few times per year. I've brought my camera and lighting gear the last few times, but I can't seem to get good results. Period. There are a ton of issues to face. I'll list a few and then post a photo I took last time I went there. 

- CRAP for lighting. We're talking like iso1600, f/2.8, and like 1/8 of a second. So flash is a must. Do I just shut out all ambient and try to light the whole place, using flash to freeze motion? I only have 4 speedlights to work with here. 

-Angles. Both shooting and lighting. The place is so jammed full of different riding lines/obstacles that finding somewhere to set up lights and/or shoot from without being in the way is nearly impossible. 

-Backgrounds. It's an old warehouse, clean background aren't happening. Theres gonna be other riders/ramps/lights/ceiling trusses in the background, it doesn't matter where I shoot from. Do I try to get rid of them with DOF and light falloff or say screw it and leave them?

-Shadows- Can't really get lights higher then the riders, so eliminating shadows will be tough. I have 9 foot light stands, but the riders are higher than that on alot of the jumps. 

example:













Basically, I'm trying to make lemonade out of rotten lemons, without a juicer. Is there anything I can do to get better photos here!? I haven't tried shooting it since last winter, and I've learned alot since then. But just the thought of trying to shoot this place scares me. I was talking to a photog from mountain bike action magazine who was there the one time, and even he said that shooting there sucked.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 13, 2011)

several speedlites in the perimeter should do it.


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## o hey tyler (Dec 13, 2011)

Yeah, I was thinking if you can get a good spread of speedlights and try to kill out ambient as much as possible, that would be your best bet. Like 1/200s, f/2.8, ISO 400. Maybe f/3.5 if you can swing it just to get some additional DoF. I'd also try and get higher if you can, judging by the shot you posted. Do you think that's a possibility? I guess it's also kind of dependent on the range of your triggers too. You could always kill ambient, and back light them so that they have a nice glow in the air. Might be nice and kind of stylized. I guess you'll have to get there early and play around if you can.


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## Vtec44 (Dec 13, 2011)

I'd try longer focal length, large aperture (4 or larger aperture), and lots of speedlights to kill the ambient light.


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## Destin (Dec 13, 2011)

Right. It's just gonna be a pain to manually balance 4 speedlights with moving subjects, We'll see though. Definitely gonna try some strong rim lighting at some point too.


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## Big Mike (Dec 13, 2011)

Lightstands may be a problem, but can you get up into the girders or maybe up around the ceiling etc?  Most sports arenas have strobes mounted up in the ceiling that the photographers use.

As for the background....yes, it looks like it would be hard to avoid all that stuff...so don't worry too much about it.  Go with it, find creative angles, maybe even emphasize the background when you can.  Shooting at 200mm with an aperture of F2.8 would certainly help to blur the background...but do you have a lens for that?  

Do you have a specific shot or look that you're trying to achieve?  Without a more specific goal, it's hard to give you more direction.


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## bazooka (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't really know what you're going for exactly, but to me, the problem with the above shot is not ambient because it is lit mostly be flash which is close to the lens axis. This is what is lighting up your background. If possible, I could kill most of the ambient and put the light behind the riders at an angle. This will allow your background to be dark and will create a dramatic light. You can put a weaker light in front well off to the left, or perhaps shooting across at 90 for a touch of fill if you want.

Of course if you need more power, you can put multiple lights in one spot which will give you an extra stop of light (one stop for one extra light, two stops for 3 extra lights). (justin clamps or gaff tape are your friend)

Something like this.... (obviously not to scale)

Creator / Home - Online Lighting Diagram Creator - Tools for photographers

This way the background is lit by ambient only and you can control it with the shutter speed. You might get lucky and get some really cool rim lights off the ceiling girders... Personally, I would be excited to try some shots in there. Remember to color balance your lights to the ambient (or balance them however you want, just remember to set it how you want it and not leave it to chance).


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## Fox_Racing_Guy (Dec 13, 2011)

You photo there looks as good as I have ever seen from that place. It is local to me and I know several folks that shoot there. When you get your new D7000 maybe it will allow you to raise your ISO a litte higher as well. There are several indoor MX places around here as well and the photo's I have seem from the 2 guys using D7000's look pretty damn nice. I have zero interest in anything indoors myself so I never tried shooting at any of them. 
I'll see you next year ar 51.


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## camz (Dec 13, 2011)

Well if it's documenting the random riders jumping doing their thing, it's probably going to be useless to do a hard setup as it is it will be a hit and miss.  Just stage it.  Round them up and tell them you're doing a shoot until you have a few who are willing to part take.  Then set your ocf based on that.  If you're concentrating on just one rider, it shouldn't take you more then two speedlights/speedlites to light them up.  Having them cooperate will make your setup easier and would probably give you more quality images. Tell them where to go, or where to hit their tricks based on your setup.  I'm sure some of these guys wouldn't mind getting what they love doing documented the right way - pitch it as such.


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## MLeeK (Dec 13, 2011)

Choose your shooting spot strategically. I'd want to have 4 speedlights. two to each side-mid height if possible and 1 front and 1 back 1 of which is high and the other low... EXACTLY where I would place them I am clueless without being there. 
Gorilla pods are awesome for placing a speedlight in some bizarre places. So are Justin Clamps!


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## thierry (Dec 13, 2011)

I shoot a lot of BMX... I always have one speedlight backlighting the subject to make em pop from the background and then I always have another somewhere by the end of the landing pointing up.. that is for like a box jump or spine.. For a quarter pipe or half, I would get two one either end of the ramp pointing towards the middle, or wherever the subject was.. Rays is pretty dark so I would def be using at leasnt two flashes.. one for backlighting and one for primary.. In BMX you can get away with harsh shadows and funky lighting situations...




Devin 3 by ThierryLyles, on Flickr




John 2 by ThierryLyles, on Flickr




Devin 4 by ThierryLyles, on Flickr


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 13, 2011)

if it is not staged I would us 2 to 4 speedlites surrounding a high traffic area where they do tricks.  Set your camera for that light setting.  Have another flash on your camera set to TTL but leave it off.  Only turn it on occasionally when needed or when you go outside the perimeter.


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## Destin (Dec 13, 2011)

Here guys, here's a youtube video I found of the line that my shot above was taken on. Took it on the jump right before he hit's the red bull wall. This gives you an idea of how crammed on top of itself this place is. I guess I'm just gonna go down and experiment all day. Not even gonna bring my bike to ride, I'm determined to get good photos!


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## o hey tyler (Dec 13, 2011)

That looks like a pretty fun place to ride!


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## DiskoJoe (Dec 13, 2011)

Try to find spots where you can get decent lighting and try to make some action happen in that area. You can probably find something that works. Get some wide angle action in there too.


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## Destin (Dec 13, 2011)

DiskoJoe said:


> Try to find spots where you can get decent lighting and try to make some action happen in that area. You can probably find something that works. Get some wide angle action in there too.



Widest lens I own right now is my 28 :/ so that's gonna be challenging lol


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## Derrel (Dec 13, 2011)

How about some SECOND-curtain synch + dragging the shutter...that would actually make the ugly beams look BETTER!!! They would become graphical elements!!! I am serious....maybe 1/6 second or so, with a flashpop at the ending time of the ambient exposure...

The speed of the ambient exposure could be varied both by ISO adjustment and F/stop used, as well as the TIME length the shutter is open...you might want to go as slow as 1/3 second, or as fast as say 1/20 to 1/40 second, depending on how strong the light is, and how much it records, based on aperture and ISO level.

I think it'd look pretty cool with a "normal" focal length lens used.

Alternately...how about some multi-pop stroboscopic looks???


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## Destin (Dec 13, 2011)

Derrel said:


> How about some SECOND-curtain synch + dragging the shutter...that would actually make the ugly beams look BETTER!!! They would become graphical elements!!! I am serious....maybe 1/6 second or so, with a flashpop at the ending time of the ambient exposure...
> 
> The speed of the ambient exposure could be varied both by ISO adjustment and F/stop used, as well as the TIME length the shutter is open...you might want to go as slow as 1/3 second, or as fast as say 1/20 to 1/40 second, depending on how strong the light is, and how much it records, based on aperture and ISO level.
> 
> ...



You know Derrel, I've never Tried Stroboscopic flash. I just might have to .


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## shortpballer (Dec 13, 2011)

Why do you care so much about the background?  use all your lights on the subject and the background will catch some of the fall-off light. Just what I would do in this situation.


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## jake337 (Dec 13, 2011)

Gorilla pods!  Try to use those beams to frame your rider.   Maybe try an angle that will provide a foreground beam and beam behind subject to, with rider mid-air in between, to emphasize Hight.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Dec 13, 2011)

I didn't read all of the results, but you can also drag the shutter and let the flash freeze the rider and not worry so much about the background. Other than that you could use a low light prime ( ie. 35 f/1.4L ) or throw up multiple strobes around the venue. I think the first option is cheapest and easiest to try out.


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## Destin (Dec 18, 2011)

Alright guys, here's a link the the thread with my 4 favorite photos from the day in it. Let me know what you think. Did I improve my results from the photo at the beginning of this thread? What can I do better?

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...mx-photos-rim-light-practice.html#post2425916


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