# Requesting a salary, oh man...



## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

Well I graduated in June after a flurry of graduation portrait shoots trying to scrape some extra cash together (I might post a giant thread on them sometime), and then I got shipped right off to Korea. That's all great, but come September I'll be out of work (current job is a contract), no place to live, and I needed to fix that so I've been applying to jobs like mad. In my mind I decide where I live based on where I find work.

As it turns out, one of them got back to me for an interview. It isn't a research job, but actually a photography one, and I didn't expect that. If I get it I'll be doing mostly product photography if I get it. I don't have much experience in that area, but from what I've seen I know I can improve things quite a bit. 

Ok so here we go. They requested me to provide a base salary figure, and I had never done that. I put together a rough number, and included it with my application. That said, I low-balled it on purpose, or at least felt like I did. I even put in my letter saying "if you think this is low, please let me know." I just based it off of my student loans and how quickly I'd like to repay them. To put it out there, I asked for 36K.

So here I am wondering what would be considered "base pay" for a full time employee doing product photography for a company? If you guys wouldn't mind providing numbers from past jobs you've worked, it would be helpful. I do plan on asking for a bit more once I'm at the table and have been able to shiney things up a bit, but I want to know what would be too much for a recent college graduate to ask so I don't go over the line. I'm not looking to ask an unreasonable amount, but I'm also looking to be equally compensated. I've never negotiated a salary before and my Skype interview is on Thursday (I'm still in Korea, they're in California). It seems like a great opportunity and I'd hate to ruin it by asking too much. 

So what do you all think? Am I low-balling myself? Or do I have just a bit too much of an ego?

Things to keep in mind:

I have student loans to pay back
I live in California (higher cost of living)
I will likely be using my own body and lenses, paired with their strobes
Might be up to a one hour commute daily (each way), though I will try to avoid this.


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## Braineack (Jul 9, 2014)

where is CA?  36K is pennies living in most places in CA.


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## Light Guru (Jul 9, 2014)

Austin Greene said:


> Am I low-balling myself?



You are extremely low balling yourself especially considering you are living in CA and you are providing the camera and lenses.


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## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

Let's just call it near Sonoma, CA. I do plan on asking for more, for most other jobs I was asking to start at 44K, but dropped it on this one for some reason.


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## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> Austin Greene said:
> 
> 
> > Am I low-balling myself?
> ...



Recommendation on a starting number then? As I mentioned to them that I had no experience in negotiating salaries, I'm hoping they won't mind the honesty if I raise it to something reasonable. Who knows, I could always have my interview and have them offer me more than what I asked. It seems like, at this point, for them to do otherwise would indicate they don't have my best interests in mind.

Edit: It seems that with the mean California income for 1 earner being $48K, I should try to start there.


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## photoguy99 (Jul 9, 2014)

If you're going to low ball a salary then negotiate a fast review.

Make it clear that you're willing to start low but you want a review at three months with the expectation of a substantial bump if everyone thinks you're worth it. And the tacit assumption that you're probably out of there ASAP if not.


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## sscarmack (Jul 9, 2014)

All depends where. Some places 35 is a lot.

LA 60


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## photoguy99 (Jul 9, 2014)

A 1br apartment goes for 1300 and up. Triple that and you're in the 45,000 range.

So, below that you're looking at living with roommates.


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## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

Ok, median California for one earner is 48K, but for this area it's 33K, so perhaps I'm not so far off. I think I'll ask for a quick review, bumping to 44K after three months, and 48K after six months.


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## Braineack (Jul 9, 2014)

FWIW, I would NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR tell an employer how much they should pay me when negotiating a salary.

ever.

They give YOU the first number and then you counter offer above it back.  otherwise you double that 36K number you are toying with as your offer.

Cause you could say 36K and they were actually willing to pay 86K.  It's someone's job as a recruiter to try to get you to say the first number and pay you much less than they were actually willing.

Also, you're incredibly naive to ever think you'll ever get a raise; that doesn't happen.  Especially within months--that actually made me laugh a bit.


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## sscarmack (Jul 9, 2014)

^^^^This


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## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

I get where you're coming from, but in all honesty, that last comment wasn't too helpful Braineack, at least with where I'm at. Considering that without a salary request they weren't looking at applications, it isn't like I had much of a choice in that department. So from where I'm at now, I'm wondering how to proceed. Do I wait for them to offer me what I've asked, and then ask to raise it for this and this reason, or do I just come right out at the start and say I miscalculated things?


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## The_Traveler (Jul 9, 2014)

What I would do in this situation is, during the interview, as soon as possible say very smoothly, "I put my lowest possible starting salary so I could get this interview because it looks like good experience and enjoyable. Realistically I I need and think I'm worth more. If we can come to an agreement where I can get a salary review after x months with an expectation that I could be escalated to yyy dollars over the following ZZZ months, I'd be happy to start here at the initial salary"


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## 407370 (Jul 9, 2014)

All employers will take advantage of a college student because you do not know what you are worth. This company saw something on the CV to get them asking questions so you gave them the info they asked for.

The figure they got was very low so they will probably go even lower. Politely but firmly dismiss any lower offers with "_that is my starting salary expectation" _do not believe a single word about reviews and future pay increases. You cannot base any financial planning on money you are not getting paid right now.

Take every opportunity to expand on the CV you sent. Every verbal conversation should contain a new bit of information about you in a positive light. "_I once saved up for 6 months to buy a lens_" shows commitment and maturity which is missing from most college leavers (you could expand on the story a bit)..........

It is easier to find a job when you already have one. If this job is a stepping stone then so be it. Dont feel obligated to your first employer, look after yourself first.

To admit you miscalculated would be wrong as it makes you look very immature. You made a mistake so suck it up and move on. Make the best of the current situation.


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## tirediron (Jul 9, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> What I would do in this situation is, during the interview, as soon as possible say very smoothly, "I put my lowest possible starting salary *so I could get this interview *because it looks like good experience and enjoyable. Realistically I I need and think I'm worth more. If we can come to an agreement where I can get a salary review after x months with an expectation that I could be escalated to yyy dollars over the following ZZZ months, I'd be happy to start here at the initial salary"


That phrase concerns me a little bit; as a potential employer, I would view that as someone who was being disingenuous and sneaky.  Rather, I would suggest, something more along the lines of, "This looks like a wonderful learning opportunity, and I would love to be part of your team.  Assuming my work meets your expectations, I would request that a salary review be scheduled after 3/4/6 months with a view to a X-Y% increase."


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## elementgs (Jul 9, 2014)

Is California where the job is?

36k in California is below the poverty line.  Welfare recipients in California receive 40k+.

I understand your frustration with Braineak's response but he's right.  The problem is, at your level of experience (from what I gather, none?) you're basically applying for an entry level position.  The fact that they are even asking for a salary request is dumb because they know exactly what they want to pay you and what they will pay you.  If you were worth anything at all you could have said 150k and they would have said, "oh man, we can't afford that but we can afford 45k" and would have chased you.

Right now you're chasing them and that's not good.  Never good.  Puts you in the weak position and they'll likely go after stronger candidates.

My recommendation is to not place all your eggs in this basket and keep shopping around for jobs while you're waiting for these guys to make up their minds.

I've never left an Interview without a firm answer as to when I'll be hired.  The key in that statement is the confidence which I approach every interview.  I know it's my job before I walk through the door and I make sure they know that.  I generally ask which office would be mine and I would introduce myself to the people who I would be working with during the Interview.  It's just confidence in approach.  You'll learn that.

36k is a good starting salary for someone straight out of college.  You could do better here and there and a lot of people do but that's a good start for an unrelated field.

I hope I'm wrong but frankly, if it's taken them this long to hire you then you're probably not on their list of top candidates.

Good luck.


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## SnappingShark (Jul 9, 2014)

The things I ask myself are: How much do I need to live on, and what do I want/need to do with the rest?

When weighting up jobs (not photography), I ask myself "would I take a pay CUT to do this?" - i.e do you LOVE it?

What will you get out of it besides money?

I say 36k is about $2100 after tax per month, right? Can you do what you need to do on that?


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## astroNikon (Jul 9, 2014)

Companies post salaries for open positions.
When they don't, they usually want to have the applicants to push themselves as low as possible ...

A couple interview questions
Why is this position open ?
What good and bad qualities did you have of the previous photographer ?
What good and bad qualities do you see of the existing photographs ?
(edit)  Why did the previous photographer leave?

you can even ask them as a segway into any salary change ..
... I'm not familiar with the financials of the California area.  But when I'm checking it online California seems to have a high cost of living, is this correct ?


amongst the regular interview questions ...

Good luck.


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## Braineack (Jul 9, 2014)

Austin Greene said:


> I get where you're coming from, but in all honesty, that last comment wasn't too helpful Braineack, at least with where I'm at. Considering that without a salary request they weren't looking at applications, it isn't like I had much of a choice in that department. So from where I'm at now, I'm wondering how to proceed. Do I wait for them to offer me what I've asked, and then ask to raise it for this and this reason, or do I just come right out at the start and say I miscalculated things?



Well if they come back now and say they'll hire you at 36K, then you say, "oh I can't do 36K. I actually can't work for less than 50K."

Then start actually negotiating from there before they send an offer letter.

You alluded that the company is a contractor?  They don't make money unless they hire someone; an empty seat is loss of profit.  They get paid X amount to hire a person for the position.  They try to hire the person for Y amount, then reap the profits of the remainder.  So like I said, they don't make any money if the position is unfilled. They already had a salary range in mind when they "offered" the job and asking you to request a salary allowed them to potentially increase the difference between X and Y.  

Even if that's not the case, they had a salary range in mind, and have the potential to save money if you offer much less than the job actually pays.

When I'm filling out an application and it request a salary range, I put in an exorbitant amount of money (if they require a $ figure) or I write negotiable.

Never give them the upper hand, a few extra thousand of dollars a year is nothing to them, but it's a lot to you.  And the chance of getting a raise at all, let alone 2-3% is very very low, and 3% on even 40K is only $1,200 dollars more a year (about $45 a paycheck), before taxes, before cost of living increases, before extra payroll taxes, etc. etc.

I highly doubt any company would agree to that sort of pay raise schedule unless it was a small firm and they weren't quite sure they needed someone in your position.  That sort of pay schedule suggests you're not good/expert and you're trying to prove it to them.

For all they should know, you're the most amazing photographer in the world, Annie Leibovitz learned everything she knows from you because you know everything about photography, and you will benefit the company much more than your salary is worth.


tl;dr - don't f around with money.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 9, 2014)

My advice, don't talk about salary with them at all until they bring it up again.

If the company is in CA they will most likely offer you more than your original quote because they will know that if they hired you that cheap you'd figure out pretty quickly that you couldn't pay your bills on that in California and you'd start looking for another job pretty quickly.

That doesn't save them money, it costs them money.  So don't try to negotiate right now, leave the ball in their court and talk about it when they bring it up.


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## Austin Greene (Jul 9, 2014)

Thanks for the responses everyone, I really appreciate it and I'm going to keep on reading them tomorrow morning to pick all of your brains on things. 

As for the company, I sent in my application and had an email the next day (yesterday) requesting an interview, so I'm assuming some interest on their part. They couldn't have called me simply because I didn't provide a phone number, I don't have one while I'm in Korea. They are their own small business, but with pretty high margins considering they only have 25 employees. Call them a...distributer to customers. I'd be photographing the products for the images to later be placed on the website. It's as much marketing a lifestyle as it is a product I believe. 

Right now I've decided I'm going to focus on the interview itself. If it were an in-person interview I'm confident the job would be mine as I present well, but this one is via Skype given my being in Korea. I'll worry more about the numbers when the time comes, but for now it's a matter of making myself vital to them. I have lots of ideas for their company, and can demonstrate immediate improvement over their current photos, so that's my angle amongst other things. In my mind, when the time comes, if they really want me there than my asking for 44K or so won't be a problem. If it is, it likely isn't the right situation for me. I think if I can get that, with a contracted review 3 months in leading to a raise to 48K, then I'll be happy with it as a first experience. I'm really liking some of the interview questions brought up, so if you've got any more of those I'd appreciate them. You know, besides the whole "Where do you see your company in x years?" stuff. 

If anyone has any tips for Skype interviews in particular, that would be helpful too. Typically I can just let personality do the work for me, but that will be harder to convey here since I'll just be a floating head. 

Thanks again, it means the world 

P.S: I should note, the person I have been speaking to is the co-owner of the company. In that regard I think I have an advantage in that I should be able to build more of a connection when I express my ideas for their products and website.


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## SnappingShark (Jul 9, 2014)

Skype interviews - did 8 hours of skype interviewing with one company!!!

All I can say is - be close to TWO wifi connections in case one goes down.
Find a quiet place with no interruptions.
reduce screen glare.
WEAR PANTS!!!! (i was actually asked whether I was wearing pants cos they could only see my top half. I wasn't - so I had to show them my shorts - I still got the job).
Don't just stare at them.
Pin notes up around and behind your camera so you can auto-cue if need be.
Have a drink of water handy.
Don't drink TOO much as you'll need to pee.
Treat the rest like a regular in person interview - thank them for their time and have fun with it


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## Braineack (Jul 9, 2014)

This is copy and paste from previous advice --

Be aware of what you are saying in the interview; be extremely careful. Take a second to think before you answer questions (especially the BS HR stuff like "what kind of manager do you work best with.")

Even think of a couple of examples to be prepared with, in case they ask something like, "tell me about a time you failed" - you can tell a quick story (maybe make something up in advance) about something small, and end it by explaining how you fixed it or learned not to let it happen again.

Example - "last year, i missed a deadline on a project, because i underestimated the amount of work it would require.  now i make sure to map out my work and be prepared for the unexpected so that i always meet my deadlines."

Or your weaknesses, or problems with bad managers -- don't use it as an opportunity to let them know that you don't like micromanaging.

Use it as an opportunity to show that you are aware of your weaknesses and you make sure to correct them, and how you're flexible and adaptable to different management styles and working with different personalities.

Keep your answer brief, be friendly of course, but don't start rambling about anything.

No complaining or saying *ANYTHING* negative. Turn everything positive.

Example - "why aren't you happy at your job now?"

Answer by showing that you are happy now, but you think the new job would be better.

DO NOT say, "oh i am so happy, my job is perfect."  or the truth "i hate my job"

But more like: well, actually it's not that i want to leave. and i actually really like the work on XYZ, and yada yada yada, but i saw the position with your company, and i think that would be perfect for me because i love to blah blah blah."

End it there. NOTHING AT ALL about problems or bad things at your job.

Another example - "what were the negatives at your last performance review?"

DO NOT say something like: my boss told me i have trouble communicating which i didn't even realize was a problem.

Instead say: My supervisor and I just discussed that I needed to ask more questions if i need clarification on anything. Sometimes i wasn't sure if i should bother him, and he mentioned that i take on too much work for myself.  so now i just make sure to ask for his feedback.

VAGUE, positive answers for everything.  NO complaining, NO revealing any problem or weakness that you have.  And never "i don't know" you always need to know, and always need to say something postive that makes them think you are amazing in every way.


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## gsgary (Jul 9, 2014)

Ive heard it all now, job interview on Skype :er: crazy


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## Braineack (Jul 9, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Ive heard it all now, job interview on Skype :er: crazy


what's so radical about that?  it's a lot cheaper than flying him halfway across the world...


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 9, 2014)

What to me was a red flag initially was that you have limited experience doing product photography - so why do they want you? That would make me wonder if they're looking for someone to do this dirt cheap. 

Now the second red flag is that the quality of their product photography is so mediocre that you with limited experience could do better. That would tell me they probably have not been paying a pro photographer up to this point and may have low standards and again, may want cheap more than quality.

I would check out the company - are they registered as a business on the state of California's website? do they have a physical street address that is actual office space? (Google street level has been enlightening at times when I've looked up a photography website/business that looked spiffy online but something told me it was just smoke and mirrors). Are there any BBB ratings or online reviews? 

Make sure you ask about benefits etc. too. What concerns me is basing your expected salary on what you owe in college loans instead of the salary range for the type of work you intend to do - you should know that so you can have a expectation of a realistic starting or entry level position. 

If you haven't already you could take a look at Photo District News Photo Magazine | Professional Photography Industry News and Resources , they cover what's happening in commercial photography.


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## gsgary (Jul 9, 2014)

Braineack said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Ive heard it all now, job interview on Skype :er: crazy
> ...



If he wants the job he would have to fly himself


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## SnappingShark (Jul 9, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



If companies want you for an inperson interview after the skype one, they'll fly you and put you up in a hotel.

At least that's my experience.


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## photoguy99 (Jul 9, 2014)

Advice is going to vary depending on a lot of things. If I told you how I approached salary negotiations, it would be useless. I am world class at what I do and I don't care about the money. I literally tell prospective employers that I don't care about the money, I care about the work. But make me an offer that's respectful.

This is worthless in your situation.

The three month review with the expectation of a substantial bump does work fine in some contexts. You better be able to deliver at the higher level. And it still doesn't work in all contexts. Might work for you, though. You're a noob but you've got some chops.

The low starting salary can open doors, and the 'but in looking to prove myself and move up - fast' shows you've got confidence. Your call, ultimately.


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## astroNikon (Jul 9, 2014)

Phone / Skype interviews are alot cheaper and faster to weed out long lists of potential candidates
and the best for any type of distance interviewing.


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## astroNikon (Jul 10, 2014)

might be a bit early .. but how did the interview go ?


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## Braineack (Jul 10, 2014)

did you wear pants?


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## Austin Greene (Jul 10, 2014)

Eh, woke up at 3am to prep for the interview at 5am. 45 minutes out and I just got an email saying they decided to "hold off on the position as they do some re-organization and complete a few internal processes" and that they were going to re-open things in August. 

That right there is not a company I'm too keen on working for. You decide whether you want to fill a position _before_ you post it, let alone before you schedule interviews. 

As always, I appreciate all the thoughtful comments from everyone, it really means a ton! I've learned a lot on this one and plan on adjusting quite a bit going into the next interview, photography related or not. The good news is that I might be seeing a new interview request soon, I've got a new Skype contact request and the only people I release that info to are potential employers. So, we'll see!


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## astroNikon (Jul 10, 2014)

Yes, it's odd that a company that is so reliant upon product photography would delay such an *important* position for months.

I bet, someone inside is doing the photography.

Good Luck


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## Overread (Jul 10, 2014)

Aye, at least they saved you the trouble and told you now instead of going through interviews and then "we filled the position internally" line. 

Good luck on securing a job!


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 10, 2014)

Just as well you found out now (red flags to me usually mean _something's _not right, just hard to tell what sometimes). You might be just as glad later this didn't work out when you find a good opportunity. Good luck in your job search.


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## astroNikon (Jul 10, 2014)

Next time you do a Skype interview, don't forget to ask the party interviewing, if they're wearing pants  :mrgreen:


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## SnappingShark (Jul 10, 2014)

Sorry to hear it got canceled - although you never know what happened - whether the hiring manager got different directives from his superior, or whether the business pivoted in a different way, or they just lost a big client and needed to save some money.

Giving you notice on the day of the interview isn't ideal - but on the plus side, you didn't pay for a ticket, or lose anything from it - you said you learnt - and that, my firend is the #1 important thing from any situation


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## Braineack (Jul 10, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Next time you do a Skype interview, don't forget to ask the party interviewing, if they're wearing pants  :mrgreen:


and then say hi to the NSA.


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