# Tips for groups/oh god, what did I get myself into?!



## JustJazzie (Dec 17, 2014)

Just got off the phone with a fairly good friend, her MIL wants to do a last minuet photo session while her brother is in the country. (He leaves right after the new year) seeing a good opportunity to get away for a bit from our extended company, I jumped at the opportunity! Now all I can think is "what did I just agree to?! I have never shot a group before, and I don't enjoy shooting kids."

I've already said yes, and I'm not sure if they can find someone else (the 23rd) on such short notice, so I can't back out. She knows I am not a professional, and I have declined payment twice.

That said, I need some tips/resources for shooting groups. 5 adults, three kids. I think 7, 6ish and 2ish.

I'm still waiting to hear back on weather this is an indoor or outdoor shoot......

Thanks in advance!


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## limr (Dec 17, 2014)

Two words: Hip flask.


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## pixmedic (Dec 17, 2014)

Groups are a blast! we used to be involved in a lot of groups back in the day, and I always recommend setting the safe words before getting started. get that out of the way early. 
introductions are always a good start. 
after that, its really just exploring boundaries.  mutual respect is the key. slow and steady wins the race.


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## snowbear (Dec 17, 2014)

limr said:


> Two words: Hip flask.


Hip flash, your makeshift toga and wild dancing by yourself.  It probably won't help this time, but I doubt you'll have to worry about it again.  

Oh, and if you go this route, please let me know (where and when).


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## pgriz (Dec 17, 2014)

Jazzie, I'm no pro, but as a long-time project manager, the usual method of dealing with a big problem is to break it down into smaller issues, and keep on doing that until the problem is simple and manageable.  Break the overall session into several small sessions, and appoint the MIL as the circus-master because you DON'T want it to be your problem rounding up the various bodies at the right time.  Then deal with each mini-session on its own.  Of course, scout out the place, the light, the backgrounds, give them clear instructions re. clothes, etc.  But make the MIL (assuming she's the authority figure) the one who moves things along.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 17, 2014)

snowbear said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Two words: Hip flask.
> ...


Sounds good! 9pm est location- the tpf Christmas party thread. )


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## snowbear (Dec 17, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



I'll be there!


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## JustJazzie (Dec 17, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Jazzie, I'm no pro, but as a long-time project manager, the usual method of dealing with a big problem is to break it down into smaller issues, and keep on doing that until the problem is simple and manageable.  Break the overall session into several small sessions, and appoint the MIL as the circus-master because you DON'T want it to be your problem rounding up the various bodies at the right time.  Then deal with each mini-session on its own.  Of course, scout out the place, the light, the backgrounds, give them clear instructions re. clothes, etc.  But make the MIL (assuming she's the authority figure) the one who moves things along.


I like this! One mini "problem" at a time! I'm really hoping they want indoors since I'm comfortable there. If not, I guess I'll be location scouting like tomorrow?!


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## pgriz (Dec 17, 2014)

Wait - did someone mention Jazzie in a toga?


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## limr (Dec 17, 2014)

As usual, Paul is the voice of reason and wisdom. Listen to him!

(But listen to me, too, and have that flask filled and ready to go as a back up plan when reason and wisdom go down the crapper!  )


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## snowbear (Dec 17, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Wait - did someone mention Jazzie in a toga?



More like a towel, well, some white fabric.  Sheer enough she had to convert them to B&W.

(slinks off to lurk through Flickr pages)


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## pgriz (Dec 17, 2014)

I dunno.  You really need the right company for a toga party.  And adequate amount of spirits to ensure that sedation trumps friskiness.  Don't ask me how I know.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 17, 2014)

limr said:


> As usual, Paul is the voice of reason and wisdom. Listen to him!
> 
> (But listen to me, too, and have that flask filled and ready to go as a back up plan when reason and wisdom go down the crapper!  )


I'm not a drinker. when I drink, then I wake up dehydrated so I drink water, then I wake up to Pee, and drink more water, so I need to Pee, which leaves me dehydrated..... 


snowbear said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Wait - did someone mention Jazzie in a toga?
> ...


  good thing I was careful when cropping that set.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 17, 2014)

I've never actually been to a toga party... I think I know what just made my bucket list!


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2014)

The hip-flask is the best advice of all, but in addition to that, remember to mention clothing choices; you don't want Dad in blue-jeans and a wife-beater, Mom in a black top with white slacks and the children in neon!  Shoot wide so you can crop easily to various sizes, make sure your DoF is sufficient to get everyone in focus, and watch your backgrounds.  This stuff is easy, it really is (and Paul's tip about enrolling the MiL as a cat-herder is also top-notch!).


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 17, 2014)

Toga parties are back? alright! I'm in.

The kids outnumber the adults so I'd just go with Leonore's suggestion.


OK, seriously I've worked with kids birth to 3 so the 2 yr. old got my attention here... I'd expect the other elementary school aged kids should be able to sit where directed for a picture (well, _should_...lol). One thing that works sometimes is a toddler may listen/cooperate/play better w/an older child, I've had it work to have an older sib be my 'helper' and get the little one to sit by them and take turns, join in on the activity. Sometimes it can help for a little one to have a physical object as a prompt (we'd use carpet squares), depending on the age and stage they may not know what 'here' or 'there' means (too abstract), show them. I'd get everybody else situated, then the 2 yr. old, who probably won't last long for this.

Easy as running a goat rodeo.


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## bratkinson (Dec 18, 2014)

Tirediron brought up one of my major concerns for group photos...DOF.  F5.6 or f8 will usually provide enough DOF for a group of maybe 20 or so.  That's the biggest group I've shot.  I had one group shot at dusk that I had to shoot at 'barely tolerable' ISO speed to keep the DOF -and- the shutter speed at 1/100th.  Fortunately, Lightroom did a surprisingly good job of taking care of the noise-and I'm a not-very-good 'hack' when it comes to noise correction.

Perhaps the biggest issue I've had with group shots is getting everyones' eyes open AND looking at you, hopefully smiling as well.  I think if I had to put a 'number' to it, I shoot at least 1 frame per person in the group, just to get 1 shot with everybodys' eyes open.  Then shoot about 100% more frames just to get everyones' eyes open AND looking at you AND not with a frown, or funny face, etc.  OK, kids will make funny faces at the camera...sometimes those can be a keeper!

For what it's worth, I took the Christmas card shots of the pastors and their families at our church last Sunday and had to deal with an infant and toddler as well as older adults and every age in between.  Rather then telling them "say cheese" to get a smile, I tried "on the count of 3, BLINK!  1-2-3'...and click a half second later.  I think next time I'll wait until I count 4 to click, as I still got 1 or 2 people with closed eyes in 70% of the 40 or so shots I took of the group.  I just wish my skills at Photoshop Elements were good enough to 'transplant' a smiling face to a not-so-smiling face of a 'better' shot of the group.

Fortunately, one of our pastors wanted to see my results after I fired off each 10 shots (or so) of the group.  He noticed that one of the wives was partially hidden in those shots.  I never 'saw it' before I took the pictures.  At least I moved Christmas trees and other decorations to obscure outlets and the fire alarm on the wall behind them BEFORE I started taking the pictures.  That's a major improvement from last year when I had a decorated tree limb apparently 'growing' out of the same womans' head last year!  I'm learning to look at the background BEFORE I shoot!  That's a lesson learned 'the hard way'!


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## Designer (Dec 18, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I need some tips/resources for shooting groups.



Do you have a cable release?  Or RF wireless release?  Mount your camera on your tripod, and block out the FOV on the floor or ground.  Make some preliminary measurements for DOF calculations, and mark the ideal focal distance on the ground as well.  (tape or string, for instance)  Place your softbox to one side of your camera, and perhaps a reflector on the opposite side.  

 Line up your group, closely matching the DOF marker.  Don't be afraid to walk over and give very explicit directions as to which way to turn, etc.  Don't be bashful about rearranging the individuals to produce a pleasing composition.  

Get behind the camera so they have someone to look at, and stay close to the lens so everyone's eyes will be looking at the lens.  You're going to be dancing around behind the camera waving your arms, pointing, gesturing, smiling, giving more verbal commands, and snapping away.  Concentrate on watching the children's eyes, because most adults will try to keep their gaze directed at the lens.  

Keep snapping until it looks as if the group is tired of it all, and don't chimp your shots because you won't have time to do that and still get the best shots.  

Be sure to thank everyone when the session is over.  

Break out the hip flask and breathe again.


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## pgriz (Dec 18, 2014)

Perhaps this is just a crazy thought, and if so, just ignore it.  The thought is this:  if you tether a laptop to your camera, while following Designer's suggestions above, and show the group what they look like, wouldn't that improve the possibility of people behaving better given that they are getting a "mirror" of themselves?  I've never tried it myself, but having thought of it, it may be something I'll try over the holidays.  Might be an utter disaster, or it might be inspired genius (or, more likely, something in-between).


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## Designer (Dec 18, 2014)

That tethering idea is interesting, but my experience with my own family leads me to then they won't necessarily behave any better.

I think they would all walk closer to see better.  (First shot, group walks to the laptop, photog asks everyone to return to their places, photog re-arranges group, second shot, everyone walks up to the laptop to see better, photog asks group to return to the posing area, and so on.)

BTW: we once arranged for a family session wherein we asked for everyone to wear a white shirt and blue jeans. So naturally everyone did except my daughter-in-law.  There's always one.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 18, 2014)

I will have more questions once we decide on indoor vs outdoor, but Its looking like studio (yay for me!) due to snow. 

Any advice on which lens would work best for groups? Ive got the 50mm and the 28-105 on FF. or will that have to be chosen when I see how much space is in her house? And for indoor group shots, I just want "even" lighting so no one is in anthers shadow correct? What about outside? Will my speed light be strong enough for a group of 8? or worthless to bring along? 




tirediron said:


> The hip-flask is the best advice of all, but in addition to that, remember to mention clothing choices; you don't want Dad in blue-jeans and a wife-beater, Mom in a black top with white slacks and the children in neon!  Shoot wide so you can crop easily to various sizes, make sure your DoF is sufficient to get everyone in focus, and watch your backgrounds.  This stuff is easy, it really is (and Paul's tip about enrolling the MiL as a cat-herder is also top-notch!).



Check!



vintagesnaps said:


> Toga parties are back? alright! I'm in.
> 
> The kids outnumber the adults so I'd just go with Leonore's suggestion.
> 
> ...



Sorry if my original post was unclear. There will be 5 adults, 3 kids. As far as I think, they are pretty well behaved.



bratkinson said:


> Tirediron brought up one of my major concerns for group photos...DOF.  F5.6 or f8 will usually provide enough DOF for a group of maybe 20 or so.  That's the biggest group I've shot.  I had one group shot at dusk that I had to shoot at 'barely tolerable' ISO speed to keep the DOF -and- the shutter speed at 1/100th.  Fortunately, Lightroom did a surprisingly good job of taking care of the noise-and I'm a not-very-good 'hack' when it comes to noise correction.
> 
> Perhaps the biggest issue I've had with group shots is getting everyones' eyes open AND looking at you, hopefully smiling as well.  I think if I had to put a 'number' to it, I shoot at least 1 frame per person in the group, just to get 1 shot with everybodys' eyes open.  Then shoot about 100% more frames just to get everyones' eyes open AND looking at you AND not with a frown, or funny face, etc.  OK, kids will make funny faces at the camera...sometimes those can be a keeper!
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the tips! I will read it 3 or 4 times to help remember!



Designer said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > I need some tips/resources for shooting groups.
> ...



No cable release here, at least not for the camera I am using. No chimping! (Deep breath) okay. No chimping. 



pgriz said:


> Perhaps this is just a crazy thought, and if so, just ignore it.  The thought is this:  if you tether a laptop to your camera, while following Designer's suggestions above, and show the group what they look like, wouldn't that improve the possibility of people behaving better given that they are getting a "mirror" of themselves?  I've never tried it myself, but having thought of it, it may be something I'll try over the holidays.  Might be an utter disaster, or it might be inspired genius (or, more likely, something in-between).


 Not crazy, but I dont have a laptop new enough to thither to, so it won't work for me!


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## Braineack (Dec 18, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> And for indoor group shots, I just want "even" lighting so no one is in anthers shadow correct? What about outside? Will my speed light be strong enough for a group of 8? or worthless to bring along?



I would use an off camera flash for key, and the on camera flash for fill.

here:
The Spauldings with Flat Stanley | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

this was a umbrella camera right and a 16x16 softbox camera axis.  Very spur of the moment.


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## iolair (Dec 18, 2014)

Do you have any off-camera lights?  Depending on the lighting (if indoors), bouncing a couple of flashes off the ceiling could help with the exposure somewhat.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 18, 2014)

I've got two studio strobes. One huge (as tall as me) softbox, I can diffuse the second with a shower curtain on a boom .

Bouncind won't work. They live in a home with very tall wood celings. (I believe that is where we will be shooting)


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## Designer (Dec 18, 2014)

Can you obtain a cable release before the session?  Holding a button in your hand you can still watch everyone's eyes and facial expression and press the button when everything looks good.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 18, 2014)

Designer said:


> Can you obtain a cable release before the session?  Holding a button in your hand you can still watch everyone's eyes and facial expression and press the button when everything looks good.


I don't think so. We're pretty tapped out for the season, and since I'm not getting paid for the shoot, I just can't justify it. Can I not do the same thing standing by the camera without my eye to the viewfinder??


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 18, 2014)

Good then if there will be more grown ups than kids to wrangle! But last night's silliness aside, from the questions it sounds like it would be a good idea to do some practice shots so you know what to do. Even if you just end up with a nice picture of your couch at least it would enable you set up the equipment you have and figure out what would work best for you.

I've done family holiday photos with existing room light, I've sometimes moved lamps or angled lampshades to get more light, I've a couple of times gotten photos with candle light. Bit I'm used to doing sports and events and working with the existing light and conditions. To me a holiday family photo doesn't necessarily have to be a portrait session, for that it's probably for better someone to hire a photographer.

Even if you don't know what their house is like I'd still do some practice shots at home so you have a pretty good idea what to do when you get there.


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## pgriz (Dec 18, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > Can you obtain a cable release before the session?  Holding a button in your hand you can still watch everyone's eyes and facial expression and press the button when everything looks good.
> ...



Jazzie, you sure?  They're not so expensive... Canon Wireless Remote Controller RC-6 | Canon Online Store.  And that's if you buy the name brand.  The wired third party ones are as little as $3.


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## Designer (Dec 18, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Can I not do the same thing standing by the camera without my eye to the viewfinder??



You can, but it would be easier with the cable, which I consider as being the main advantage.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 18, 2014)

I'll look into it, thanks!


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## Rick50 (Dec 18, 2014)

I'm unsure how this will all work out, but it would be nice if you would ask more questions as this was an interesting read. Now I'm off to find a hip flask.


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## tirediron (Dec 18, 2014)

I'm not 100% convinced of the value of the remote release for this situation.  That will require a tripod, which I find awkward when you need to move around.  Watch the group, tell a joke or say something that will attract their attention and get a smile.  Then shoot a sequence of 3-4 images.  After each sequence ask the group if anyone blinked; when someone says, 'Yes' (someone always seems to say 'Yes'), ask them if they saw red or black.  If they saw red, they blinked (the flash highlighting hte blood in their eye-lids), if they saw black, no blinky.  Don't chimp between shots, but have a quick look between groups just to make sure there are no excess highlights, ugly facial expressions, etc.  Of course there always things that you can't account for:





but that's why you shoot multiple frames of each pose.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 19, 2014)

Rick50 said:


> I'm unsure how this will all work out, but it would be nice if you would ask more questions as this was an interesting read. Now I'm off to find a hip flask.


As soon as I figure out if the MIL is set on outdoor, or if were doing an indoor shoot I'll have plenty more questions! Still waiting for a call back. *sigh*


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## dennybeall (Dec 19, 2014)

A lot of ideas for molding the group into photos and behavior that you want. You may consider the group would like to have photos that show the group dynamic as it is. Let them cut-up and make faces or whatever and you may give them the memories that they want. After they get it out of their system you can usually get a couple of posed group shots. On the other hand they may be very formal folks????


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## JustJazzie (Dec 19, 2014)

Well, I finally herd back from the mom. She "really dislikes studio pictures and is crushed we can't do them outside" (6inches of snow)

There is another brother apparently, so now I am at 5 adults and three kids.

I will be going to their house. I'm thinking I will set my white background behind their couch and use it for posing, but eliminate the banister behind them. The other wall is a huge picture window with Xmas tree. Im worried about mixed light using that wall.

For lights. I was going to do two large softboxes at 45° and I have a speeslight I thought I could use as rim light. Can someone tell me if one speedlight will be enough to backlight 5 adults, 3 kids? What ZOOM WOULD I USE? and the wide angle diffuser, I should pop that up right? Or maybe that should be a whole new thread???


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## pgriz (Dec 19, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> She "really dislikes studio pictures and is crushed we can't do them outside"



To me, that's a red flag in terms of her expectations.  Maybe before setting up your stuff, you need to explore her "dislike" with her to see what she wants it to look like.  THEN, you know what the target is, and you can start figuring out how to get it done.


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## tirediron (Dec 19, 2014)

Hmmm....  a few thoughts:  I wouldn't worry too much about the back/rim light if you're using a white background.  Two large soft boxes should be plenty for the group; both at 45 will give you even, flat light however, which may not be ideal if the MiL is not a fan of the studio look.  How about one 30 degrees camera left (or right) as key, and a fill about 10-15 degrees of axis on the opposite side 1/2 - 2/3 stop down.  That should give you a bit of shadow and interest without being too dramatic or "shadowy".  A lot of the lighting however will depend on how you plan to pose them.  Remember, if you're going have them seated, DO NOT let them lean back.  butts on the very forward edge of the cushions!


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## JustJazzie (Dec 19, 2014)

pgriz said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > She "really dislikes studio pictures and is crushed we can't do them outside"
> ...


 I know! Though my post sounded irritating, she was nice about it-just genuinely disappointed that outdoors work work. She realizes time and weather are Just not on our side. 



tirediron said:


> Hmmm....  a few thoughts:  I wouldn't worry too much about the back/rim light if you're using a white background.  Two large soft boxes should be plenty for the group; both at 45 will give you even, flat light however, which may not be ideal if the MiL is not a fan of the studio look.  How about one 30 degrees camera left (or right) as key, and a fill about 10-15 degrees of axis on the opposite side 1/2 - 2/3 stop down.  That should give you a bit of shadow and interest without being too dramatic or "shadowy".  A lot of the lighting however will depend on how you plan to pose them.  Remember, if you're going have them seated, DO NOT let them lean back.  butts on the very forward edge of the cushions!


 thank you! I think I will try to go with white then. I also have black. If the Mom for some reason wants black (I already told her it was an option) would the speedlight work?)
Considering she's already "settling" I don't want to dissappoint her day of limiting her options further.

Great tip about the sitting position! I will keep that in the front of my mind.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 19, 2014)

And thanks for the lighting tip Tirediron, I know 45° is terribly boring. It just seemed safe with such a large group. I'll give your suggestion a go!!

Now I need to go research poses!


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## tirediron (Dec 19, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with going 'safe' and using flat lighting, just thinking if MiL doesn't like studio lighting, that might seem a bit too studio for her tastes, but there's NO reason you can't do a couple of set-ups.  I always tell clients that it's nice to have some variety.  As for the black background, one speedlight is going to have a tough time rim-lighting eight people, especially if they're in two rows.  I think the white background will be your best choice.


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## beachrat (Dec 19, 2014)

Throw them all outside in the snow and blame the MIL.
And make them stand there all day while you wait for the right light.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

tirediron said:


> There's nothing wrong with going 'safe' and using flat lighting, just thinking if MiL doesn't like studio lighting, that might seem a bit too studio for her tastes, but there's NO reason you can't do a couple of set-ups.  I always tell clients that it's nice to have some variety.  As for the black background, one speedlight is going to have a tough time rim-lighting eight people, especially if they're in two rows.  I think the white background will be your best choice.


Okay, I will go with the white background for the group shot! Maybe give her the option of black for the smaller groups, if it's some thing she really wants.

I tried to get some Christmas shots of the kids yesterday, and the grandparents wanted to join in. That was only 4 people, and getting them all to look at the camera was a nightmare (I probably didn't try hard enough) and afterwords I had a lightbulb pop on. I'm not good at leading, and I am NOT funny.  I don't think I am cut out for group work. It is Too late to back out of this one, so someone PLEASE give me some jokes to use on this group in hopes I can stop myself from rambling incoherently....


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## pgriz (Dec 21, 2014)

Find a really bad group photo (the internet's good for that), and tell them that's how they'll look if they don't cooperate.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

Oy vey! I just got another message, saying we are going to change the location to outdoors, and hopefully get the shots wrapped up in 15 minuets because the kids won't want to stand in the snow longer than that. I did NOT scout a location because we were planning indoors, and I am not confidant I can do the whole thing in 15-20 minuets. They are again, offering to pay me, which I am not comfortable because I have NEVER done a large group before, and my outdoor lighting work is laking anyways AND I dont have the equipment necessary to light a group outdoors either. 

This sounds like a good time to back out right??? But if I back out, they get no pictures at all, even bad ones......





pgriz said:


> Find a really bad group photo (the internet's good for that), and tell them that's how they'll look if they don't cooperate.





tirediron said:


> There's nothing wrong with going 'safe' and using flat lighting, just thinking if MiL doesn't like studio lighting, that might seem a bit too studio for her tastes, but there's NO reason you can't do a couple of set-ups.  I always tell clients that it's nice to have some variety.  As for the black background, one speedlight is going to have a tough time rim-lighting eight people, especially if they're in two rows.  I think the white background will be your best choice.


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## Designer (Dec 21, 2014)

Are you beginning to wish you were being paid for this? 

Can you mount your speedlight in one of the softboxes?  Using a softbox for fill is a good way to cut the dark shadows in their eye sockets and under their chins.  If it's a bright day with snow, "underexpose" just a bit (by your camera's light meter) and use flash fairly near the camera.

Or maybe you have a white umbrella for a diffuser.


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## tirediron (Dec 21, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Oy vey! I just got another message, saying we are going to change the location to outdoors, and hopefully get the shots wrapped up in 15 minuets because the kids won't want to stand in the snow longer than that. I did NOT scout a location because we were planning indoors, and I am not confidant I can do the whole thing in 15-20 minuets. They are again, offering to pay me, which I am not comfortable because I have NEVER done a large group before, and my outdoor lighting work is laking anyways AND I dont have the equipment necessary to light a group outdoors either.
> 
> This sounds like a good time to back out right??? But if I back out, they get no pictures at all, even bad ones....


This is where you have to take charge!  Doing this in fifteen minutes is completely unreasonable.  I would tell them to plan a minimum of one hour (I would actually only plan to use 30-40 minutes, but I always err on the safe side), and you need a day to find a location.  Explain to them that professional photography involves a LOT more than standing there and saying 'Cheese', and if they don't have the time to give it, you're sorry, but you won't be able to help them.  They're trying to control away from you here, and you've got two choices, walk away (NOT the recommended course of action), or stand up like you've got a pair and take charge.  If you're not used to doing it, it can seem a bit daunting, but it's not difficult and the truth is, as soon as you show the first concrete sign of leadership, there's about a 99.999994% chance they will back right down and let you do your job.  If they don't, chances are you don't want to work with them.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

Designer said:


> Are you beginning to wish you were being paid for this?
> 
> Can you mount your speedlight in one of the softboxes?  Using a softbox for fill is a good way to cut the dark shadows in their eye sockets and under their chins.  If it's a bright day with snow, "underexpose" just a bit (by your camera's light meter) and use flash fairly near the camera.
> 
> Or maybe you have a white umbrella for a diffuser.


Too late. I just tested saying I can't do outside. I don't even want to be paid for this. I'm not sure you could pay me enough. ;-)


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

tirediron said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > Oy vey! I just got another message, saying we are going to change the location to outdoors, and hopefully get the shots wrapped up in 15 minuets because the kids won't want to stand in the snow longer than that. I did NOT scout a location because we were planning indoors, and I am not confidant I can do the whole thing in 15-20 minuets. They are again, offering to pay me, which I am not comfortable because I have NEVER done a large group before, and my outdoor lighting work is laking anyways AND I dont have the equipment necessary to light a group outdoors either.
> ...



This is mostly what I Said and offered to do an indoor shoot as planned, but gave them the option to back out if it's really not what they want. I hate the cold, and I can't work my camera in gloves. *sigh* I just think outdoor pics in 6 inches of snow is way beyond my comfort level


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## SquarePeg (Dec 21, 2014)

No good deed goes unpunished.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

SquarePeg said:


> No good deed goes unpunished.


Lol
Isn't that the truth?! 
She said they will still go ahead with the indoor pictures, so now I'm back to issue number 1, figuring out how to make them all smile!


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## Braineack (Dec 21, 2014)

Make yourself look ridiculous.  That or swap around heads, like I do, from multiple frames.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Make yourself look ridiculous.  That or swap around heads, like I do, from multiple frames.



I'm pretty sure I do that without trying, especially in groups, and around people I don't know well. ;-) 

I just downloaded a funny sounds app, it includes at least 10 different fart and burp sounds. Hoping I can at least fall back on that if all else fails.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 21, 2014)

I wonder if maybe you ought to talk to your friend...  Her mother-in-law seems like she wanted the photos done outdoors from the get-go and I don't know if she's going to be happy with how this is turning out any more that you seem to be at this point.

You've mentioned a number of concerns you seem to have and questions on what might work best, etc. so maybe this isn't something you're quite ready to take on yet. I can see how you might feel like you need to go ahead and try to do this but maybe it would be better for them to find someone else. They may not want to hurt your feelings or cancel on you any more than you feel like you shouldn't cancel on them, but they may be just as happy if they go ahead and make other arrangements.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 21, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> I wonder if maybe you ought to talk to your friend...  Her mother-in-law seems like she wanted the photos done outdoors from the get-go and I don't know if she's going to be happy with how this is turning out any more that you seem to be at this point.
> 
> You've mentioned a number of concerns you seem to have and questions on what might work best, etc. so maybe this isn't something you're quite ready to take on yet. I can see how you might feel like you need to go ahead and try to do this but maybe it would be better for them to find someone else. They may not want to hurt your feelings or cancel on you any more than you feel like you shouldn't cancel on them, but they may be just as happy if they go ahead and make other arrangements.


Maybe you aren't aware, but they only have ONE time slot available for this as the brother is leaving the country. I'm not sure where they are supposed to come up with a photographer the day before the event, and two days before Christmas.
I gave them two oppertunitys for an "easy out" where they could back out without hurting feelings if they wanted to, or were set against indoor shots. She seems very adamant about making this happen, so even if the MIL isn't pleased in the end, it sounds like others will be satisfied. And honestly, isn't a "mediocre" picture, better than none at all?

They KNOW I am not a pro, I have made my limitations very clear and hopefully set their expectations where they should be.

You still haven't answered my original question which is "when does one learn, if they pass up oppertunities to try?"

Perhaps instead of being so negative and just telling me to give up, you could offer some useful tips to help me- just maybe, succeed?


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## beachrat (Dec 21, 2014)

Bleh.
This is gonna be easy.
Pic a spot,goof around with the light a little bit,check your exposures a few times,line em up and mow em down.
The MIL is looking for one nice picture of the whole gang that looks good to her,and you'll get a whole load of them.
Relax ,do what you know how to do and stop over thinking it.
At all.


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## medic2230 (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Make yourself look ridiculous.  That or swap around heads, like I do, from multiple frames.
> ...




Nothing and I mean NOTHING sets the mood for a family Christmas picture like a burp and fart from behind the camera.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

Trying to pack up my gear for tomorrow, what's my list missing?
Lights, triggers and modifiers
Backdrops & clips
Backdrop stand and all my light stands (just in case!)
Two computer chairs with the backs removed for posing stools if needed.
Camera & lens with freshly charged battery
Backup camera and lens' with three backup batteries
Flask ;-)
Emergency memory card
Pez dispenser topper for the camera (to hopefully help kids look)
Lens cleaning kit
Tripod
EDITED:
Extra batteries for triggers

Sooo, what am I missing here?


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## pgriz (Dec 22, 2014)

Looks good.  Don't forget the cool.  And if you don't feel confident, fake it.  As far as they are concerned, your gear (and knowledge) beats anything they can scrounge up.  So as the one with the mostest, go forth and actuate!


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Looks good.  Don't forget the cool.  And if you don't feel confident, fake it.  As far as they are concerned, your gear (and knowledge) beats anything they can scrounge up.  So as the one with the mostest, go forth and actuate!


Right! The cool! I'll throw some ice cubes in the vodka then.

Hmm, never thought about it that way! Good point!


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## limr (Dec 22, 2014)

I've just read the past two pages and they have done nothing to revise my original advice: hip flask. You may not drink, but some of the other adults might be grateful to take a nip from it


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## Braineack (Dec 22, 2014)

i didn't see the toga on the list.


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## SquarePeg (Dec 22, 2014)

Can't wait to hear all about it and see some pics!  Don't keep us in suspense too long.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

Braineack said:


> i didn't see the toga on the list.


:head scratch: I thought the toga was for the TPF Christmas party. I showed up as promised, and apparently scared everyone off since that was the thread killer. NOW I understand, I was supposed to wear it to the photoshoot. No wonder everyone thought I was crazy and left. 



SquarePeg said:


> Can't wait to hear all about it and see some pics!  Don't keep us in suspense too long.


 ill do what I can. If I disappear for months, you'll know it went terribly wrong and I am hiding in the shadows afraid of the c&c. ;-)


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## Designer (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> 10 different fart and burp sounds.



Don't do that.


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## medic2230 (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Sooo, what am I missing here?




Olaf, kids love the Frozen movie. If you feel like you don't know what your doing just act like you do. It works every time. Walk in, take charge, get it done and carry on. Boom.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

Designer said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > 10 different fart and burp sounds.
> ...


Lol, I thought it would be obvious that I was joking. ;-)


medic2230 said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > Sooo, what am I missing here?
> ...


 Ohh! Frozen WAS good, I would LOVE an olaf of my own! Good advice here, thank you!


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## medic2230 (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > JustJazzie said:
> ...



Toys r us has them. I got one on Black Friday for $20. If you'd like a huge one then Kohl's has one on sale for $119 reg $250.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

medic2230 said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...


I meant a *real* Olaf. Like a magical, singing, dancing, conversing Olaf.


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## medic2230 (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I meant a *real* Olaf. Like a magical, singing, dancing, conversing Olaf.



*facepalm*


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## gsgary (Dec 22, 2014)

I can see a train crash ahead


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## pixmedic (Dec 22, 2014)

gsgary said:


> I can see a train crash ahead


We are used to it by now.


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## gsgary (Dec 22, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > I can see a train crash ahead
> ...


But this one isn't being driven by Cassy Jones


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## JustJazzie (Dec 22, 2014)

gsgary said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Who's that?


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## gsgary (Dec 22, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



Steaming and a rolling Casey Jones (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## tirediron (Dec 22, 2014)

gsgary said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


Strictly speaking, Johnathan Luther Jones, engineer on the Illinois Central and Mobile & Ohio RR.


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## medic2230 (Dec 22, 2014)

^^^ That's the one I was thinking of.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

gsgary said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...





tirediron said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > JustJazzie said:
> ...



I learn all sorts of stuff on TPF! Love it!


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## tirediron (Dec 23, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > JustJazzie said:
> ...


On rare occasions, some of it's actually useful (and on even rarer occasions, photography-related!)


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

tirediron said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...


"Useless" information is my favorite kind. You'd be surprised the junk I store up top!


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## kundalini (Dec 23, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> .....Now I need to go research poses!


Lastolite School of Photography has loads of useful tips and techniques and (of course) products they wish to tout.  Here’s a tutorial on posing groups with their posing tubs.  You can substitute the tubs with anything you have on hand, different height chairs, sofa, pillows, etc. in order to vary the head heights for your group.  But the information on getting good positioning of groups is solid.  A majority of the tutorial has the photographer working with a couple, but at the 20:33 mark he starts with a group of six.  Enjoy.

*http://www.lastoliteschoolofphotography.com/using-posing-tubs*





JustJazzie said:


> ..... I don't even want to be paid for this. I'm not sure you could pay me enough. ;-)


Perhaps instead of taking the money on offer, in the spirit of the holidays, have the MIL donate to your local food bank, warm coats drive, animal shelter or some charity that you support.  MIL will feel better, you will feel better and the charity will definitely benefit.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

kundalini said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > .....Now I need to go research poses!
> ...


*sigh* I can't get that video to play on my phone for some reason, and we don't have fast enough internet to stream on a computer. :-( I did watch a YouTube video that talked about different heights though! The general pose I have in mind uses the sofa, some posing stools behind the sofa, and possibly someone sitting on the arms of the sofa. I'll use the kids to fill in the gaps. 

Nice idea about the charity! If they ask again, I'll bring it up!


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## Braineack (Dec 23, 2014)

have her donate to me warm kittens.


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## Designer (Dec 23, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> The general pose I have in mind uses the sofa, some posing stools behind the sofa, and possibly someone sitting on the arms of the sofa. I'll use the kids to fill in the gaps.


Oh, man!  I hate to keep throwing things at you, but I would advise against posing people on a sofa.  The problem is that adults tend to sink down with their hips lower than their knees, making for some very awkward postures.  Ladies wearing skirts is another problem.  And people tend to lean back into the backrest throwing their faces way far back behind their knees, so unless your DOF is 4 or 5 feet deep, something is going to be out of focus.  

Rather than a sofa, grab a couple of dining room chairs for selected adults to sit upon.  Find a kitchen stool or two for the shorter people, and have a few stand behind.

As for using the children to "fill in the gaps", try to make a pleasing composition with "lines" of faces.  When you pose your group, ask the ones in back to get very close to the ones in front, and if you have any children on somebody's lap, get the child's head positioned so that his face is not forward of your DOF.  Focus on someone's eyes somewhere in the middle of the DOF, not the front or the back.


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## kundalini (Dec 23, 2014)

A sofa should be fine as long as you get them to sit on the front edge of the cushions, not sinking to the rear.  Those behind the sofa would need to bend at the waist to lean forward, which in turn lowers their heads so that you can "fill in the gaps" a bit easier.

Here's a good rule of thumb when posing multiple people (assuming two rows).  Have the lower tier's eyes be kinda level with the upper tier's mouths.  Diagonals is the watchword.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

Designer said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > The general pose I have in mind uses the sofa, some posing stools behind the sofa, and possibly someone sitting on the arms of the sofa. I'll use the kids to fill in the gaps.
> ...


I planned to have them seated right on the edge, then others on the hard arm rest?  I packed a tape measure to calculate my DOF to make sure it's deep enough. 

I'm trying to think of where else we could pose them, as it's a pretty small house. Maybe I can convince them to move the sofa. ..somewhere? There's a small space in the basement  but I'm not sure it's adequate for so many people! I'd need to go 3-4 rows deep......


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

kundalini said:


> A sofa should be fine as long as you get them to sit on the front edge of the cushions, not sinking to the rear.  Those behind the sofa would need to bend at the waist to lean forward, which in turn lowers their heads so that you can "fill in the gaps" a bit easier.
> 
> Here's a good rule of thumb when posing multiple people (assuming two rows).  Have the lower tier's eyes be kinda level with the upper tier's mouths.  Diagonals is the watchword.


This was the plan! I brought the posing stool, thinking I could seat them behind and Have them lean in, maybe arms resting on the back of the sofa?

Great tip about eye/mouth placement. I will do my best to watch for that!

If the sofa is too large to fill the frame, there is an oversized chair I can use. Grandma on the front with child in lap, two kids on the arm rest (watch for knees, grandma should hide them! Fill in the second row with the other four adults?


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## kundalini (Dec 23, 2014)

Shot with a single hot-shoe mounted flash bounced off the ceiling.









The fun shots come when they least expect it.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

Nice ones!!! Their ceilings are WAAAY too high for that, and they are wood so no much light to be bounced. The wall behind me is a stone floor to ceiling fireplace so no reflective qualities there! 

I'm gonna try my best to slow it down. I always rush and I think it's my biggest downfall!


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## medic2230 (Dec 23, 2014)

Wasn't today the day?


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

medic2230 said:


> Wasn't today the day?


Yes! Just finished editing one. I'm semi happy with how things went. I definitely could have done better.

I got there and was informed one brother had a Skype interview exactly an hour after they arrived so I felt a little rushed. :-(


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

Well, here is the best of the group shots. I'm still trying to mend where my background didn't cover. Maybe try to learn how to remove the red cheeks on the baby?

I am not happy that the little girl is in shadow, I did try to move her, but well, the guys heads in the back moved and messed everything up. I made the mistake of shooting with my 50mm, I THOUGHT I could do it, but it made things a little tight. I think the smaller groups turned out a little better, I'll post those as I edit them, but I suppose they should go into a new thread in the gallery?


C&c welcome, and truly valued.


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## tirediron (Dec 23, 2014)

Not bad at all!  A second light camera left would definitely have helped, but I think with a little more careful processing you can reduce that shadow.


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## pgriz (Dec 23, 2014)

I'd say this is pretty good.  In fact, VERY good.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Not bad at all!  A second light camera left would definitely have helped, but I think with a little more careful processing you can reduce that shadow.





pgriz said:


> I'd say this is pretty good.  In fact, VERY good.



Thanks guys! I was REALLY nervous going in. I don't think it showed though. Hopefully not! Luckily it was a GREAT looking family, and everyone was easy to work with except the two little boys!


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## medic2230 (Dec 23, 2014)

That turned out really good! Nice job! Those two boys, not easy to work with?? But, but they're angels…..haha

Ready for a group of 60 now?


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

medic2230 said:


> That turned out really good! Nice job! Those two boys, not easy to work with?? But, but they're angels…..haha
> 
> Ready for a group of 60 now?


HAHAH! NEVER!!! I nearly hyperventilated going into this!


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## snowbear (Dec 23, 2014)

Most of your anxiety seems to be for naught; I think you did a wonderful job.  I'd certainly bring a crowd to you to photograph.  I'd even pay you a fair amount (and I'm a cheap %*$^!*&)


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

snowbear said:


> Most of your anxiety seems to be for naught; I think you did a wonderful job.  I'd certainly bring a crowd to you to photograph.  I'd even pay you a fair amount (and I'm a cheap %*$^!*&)


AWW Thanks! Thats quite a compliment. But really, only for hopes that I show up in a toga right? ;-)


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## snowbear (Dec 23, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > Most of your anxiety seems to be for naught; I think you did a wonderful job.  I'd certainly bring a crowd to you to photograph.  I'd even pay you a fair amount (and I'm a cheap %*$^!*&)
> ...



That would get you a bigger tip!  Looking forward to seeing some of the small group shots.


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## JustJazzie (Dec 23, 2014)

snowbear said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > snowbear said:
> ...


 probably tomorrow! I almost posted then tonight, but then I remembered I always edit weird when I'm tired so I'd better give it a fresh eye in the morning!


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## Braineack (Dec 24, 2014)

Recover the shadows a bit more, and spend time evening out the girl on the left and the guys in the back and I'd say you have a real winner.

good job!  How'd you end up lighting this?

Trying using a selective color layer on the kids cheeks, alter the reds a bit.

Got any frames where the kids are looking at the camera with good poses?  If so, I'd consider swapping faces around.


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## SquarePeg (Dec 24, 2014)

No c&c, just a pat on the back for a nice job under less than ideal conditions.  This is a great family photo and I'm sure they will be very happy with it.  It doesn't hurt that they're an attractive bunch!


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## JustJazzie (Dec 24, 2014)

Anyone interested in how the shoot went can find the rest of the set here.

a huge THANK YOU to everyone who gave such awesome advice! I really couldn't have done it without you!

My first Group Shootic heavy | Photography Forum


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