# Ok, so don't yell at me... LOL



## Lyncca (Jul 9, 2009)

I just want to say that up front  Seriously, read the post before you go off at me.

I have a friend (I know they all start like that) who contacted me and asked me to shoot her and her future husband's wedding. I have recently done one very small wedding, a tag-along, and have another Saturday. I also have been asked to do six second shooting opportunities before their wedding. 

I had already told her in her first email that I would do her bridals or an engagement as a freebie, but that there were so many things with a wedding, that I just couldn't do that for free because of all the work involved, paying for insurance, taxes, etc. I told her I would be working the whole time and not be able to really hang out like everyone else. I wanted her to know that friend or not, I took it very serious.

So, I asked details of what she was looking for and she said essentially, "I just want to know that someone else is taking care of it so I don't have to. I don't need a second shooter, or albums, etc." I wrote her back and said I would give her a custom proof box (from Finao) with a set of 4x6 prints and all my time for $600 and she could buy prints, or for $800 I would give her the disk (which we all know is CHEAP!) 

After several weeks, she wrote me back and said that they decided they wanted all their guests to have a good time, so they decided to go with a photographer recommended from where they were getting married. I was really upset and really mad! They were absolutely fine putting me out (she even replied back after me telling her all the work it would be) until I told her a price. Then, all of a sudden, she didn't want to put me out. Did she really just think I would do it for free, or like $50?? At $600, with approx $200 in taxes, $250 for the print and proof box, that left me less than $200 for all that work.

Then, I was torn. Should I have done it for free to build experience? Hell, I'm doing tag-alongs for free now anyway... Is she telling our mutual friends that I tried to rip her off? Is she going to get screwed by finding some $200 photographer? I highly doubt the place she is getting married at (its fairly nice) recommended some crappy fly-by-night, so maybe she hit Craig's list. I know I'm not a $5k photographer, but I am certainly better than most of the people out there for what she is going to pay.

I don't WANT to be the bottom of the barrell guy. I'm busting my ass to get equipment, experience, insurance, approved at professional labs and product (album) services. It just chapped my butt that essentially this gift was thrown back in my face. I think next time a friend asks, I'm just gonna say, No thanks....

I don't guess there is much anyone can advise? I don't think.... I'm just still miffed and sometimes writing things out make me feel better.  I don't think she meant any harm by it, she just thinks I'm full of crap probably about what is involved. After brewing and going off to my husband, I did answer back and just said, "That's cool, it will nice to leave all the equipment at home and not have a job for once!" 

For years at every wedding, I have had a job from Bride's maid, to unofficial photographer, wedding coordinator, and my husband has married several. 

Later that night, I was contacted by another photographer that I really like wanting to meet to discuss me second shooting with her, so it improved my mood. A little...


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## Big Mike (Jul 9, 2009)

I'll yet at you...
Stop offering things for free or at such low prices. If your work is good enough, you should be charging for it...friends or not.


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## Lyncca (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks Mike 
That is what the photographer I am currently shooting for said. She said she doesn't care if its her friends or not, that her price is her price. I talked to her about it before giving my price to my friends and now she is on vacation so I can't vent to her.

I am just getting started though so it is so tempting to cut your prices to do it when you KNOW they aren't going to pay anyone that. I stuck to my guns, but you see how I'm feeling about it. LOL


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## Big Mike (Jul 9, 2009)

I took a class from a long time pro photographer.  The class was about how to get started in wedding photography.  He said that the number one reason why (good) photographers failed was that their prices were too low.  He not only said that, he stressed that to us time and again...it was basically the whole point of the class.

One exercise was for us to write out things that should not influence out price.  We all put things like 'number of bridesmaids' or 'attractiveness of couple'....but what he wanted us to write was 'experience'.  

Now, of course, we all have to start somewhere...and most will probably raise their prices as they become better and more well known etc....but if you charge too little, you may be killing your business.


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## Nicholas James Photo (Jul 9, 2009)

I agree with big mike, DO NOT under sell yourself. I also see your point that in the begining it is tempting to go for the work by reducing your fee but dont. It is a slippery slope.


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## Lyncca (Jul 9, 2009)

Its really hard to wrap my head around that, but I am sure you are right since that is what every successful photographer says. I mean, I lowered my price to near nothing and it did absolutely nothing but piss me off and I still didn't get the job.

It was the same with web development. The more my partner and I raised our prices, the more business we got. But, the difference was that we were building experience as we went, so we were able to offer more with those higher prices.

If I gave her a higher rate, at least I would have got the satisfaction of having her pass out and konk her head before refusing (ok, I'm kidding!) And, I wouldn't have felt like it was a refused "gift".


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## Big Mike (Jul 9, 2009)

Another benefit is that with higher prices, you hopefully attract 'better clientele'.  Not that rich people are any better than us poor folks...but you will hopefully get clients who come to you for your style rather than people who are only attracted to your low price.  Those price hunters are usually a PITA to deal with no matter what you give them.


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## Lyncca (Jul 9, 2009)

Nicholas James Photo said:


> I agree with big mike, DO NOT under sell yourself. I also see your point that in the begining it is tempting to go for the work by reducing your fee but dont. It is a slippery slope.


 
Ok, so I was going to leave this on your blog, but you don't have comments on, so I just wanted to prove you can't avoid me that easy, so I am replying here since I already typed it all out in the Send to Friend box on accident... 



> Hey, just reading your blog and I wanted to let you know that I really enjoy it
> Don't worry, you aren't the only one obsessed with the PhotoForum.  Even though online, they are the only people I have regular contact with whose eyes don't just glaze over every time I open my mouth


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## Lyncca (Jul 9, 2009)

Big Mike said:


> Another benefit is that with higher prices, you hopefully attract 'better clientele'. Not that rich people are any better than us poor folks...but you will hopefully get clients who come to you for your style rather than people who are only attracted to your low price. Those price hunters are usually a PITA to deal with no matter what you give them.


 
I know that is for sure.  My aunt and uncle were the $500-$800 photographers for years and years.  They won't pick up a camera anymore.  I heard so many horror stories from them.  That is why I want to do better than that.  She said they would work for 12+ hours and not even get to eat for $500 for two shooters and photos on disk and the brides would still constantly complain. 
They were booked solid, but worked themselves to death for nothing.


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## SpeedTrap (Jul 9, 2009)

I will 2nd everything said here.
Some people do not put that much value to photography; they would rather spend money on a cake, the hall, a dress or whatever. Let them. If they do not see the value in it there is little we can do to convince them. It sounds to me like they were fishing for super cheep or free.

I will no longer work for anyone who is not willing to pay my rate. People who ask for a discount are just a pain; because once they can get one thing for a discount they want everything for a discount but are never happy with what is provided.

I have seen your work and you should be charging much more than you are. You have some strong work and I think if you have a strong business plan you will succeed

I know it can be tough, but get the prices up there. I know the same instructor that Big Mike referenced earlier and it is true. I could not afford to be in business for less than I make right now and I charge a lot more than $600 per wedding.

One think to know is that you need to look back to go forward and understand your path. If you did no weddings last year, and 2 this year that is 200% growth for you! Next year your prices will be higher and I bet you do plenty of weddings. Don&#8217;t be afraid to say, I have a portfolio now and it is time to make money!

As for this wedding, if you are a guest and you feel like taking some pictures I am sure they would love, but you are a guest first and foremost so go and enjoy.


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## Josh66 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lyncca said:


> Its really hard to wrap my head around that, but I am sure you are right [...]



I'm not a wedding photographer, but this is one concept that I do get.

There is _perceived_ value, and _actual_ value.  They are not always the same.

Say you're out shopping for a new TV.  You see two similar TV's - same size, pretty much the same features, only minor differences between them.
One of them is $200 cheaper than the other one.
Which one do you think is better?  It costs more, so it _has to be better_, right?



Does that help you get your head around it at all?


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## DSPhotography (Jul 10, 2009)

Makes me wonder if I should adjust my pricing for weddings. I've had two possible clients that I've sent my package price list to and both responded with "Wow, those are great prices, the least expensive photographer I could find wanted twice that." and everything sounded good to go and then they ended up canceling. One of them I'll give the benefit of the doubt to because her and her fiancee kept changing the wedding date, calling the marriage off, etc. But the other one was just kind of a ***** about it. 

Her mom was going to pay for half the wedding, including photographer. But she had a "limited" budget, so she wanted a "good yet affordable" photographer. My friend put her in contact with me and I sent her the prices (prices range $700 - $1000). The girl was pleased with the prices and wanted the $1000 package.. she talked to her mom about it and the mom said the price fit perfectly into the budget.. then she found out that I wasn't an ACTUAL business and threw out the "I don't want some two-bit photographer" line (even though the girl had seen shots I'd done at a previous wedding and was thrilled with how they looked). The girl and her mom argued about it, the mom ended up refusing to pay for photography if it wasn't a "professional" doing it (yeah, good luck finding anyone worth a damn for under $1000), so the girl decided she would pay. Things looked good to go (again) then the girl contacted me and said that she really couldn't afford it and was just going to get her friend to do photos.

honestly, it wasn't the girls fault.. but I still HATE the "Oh we're going to get our friend to do it.. it's free" line. But hey, their loss as you generally get what you pay for lol


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## kric2schaam626 (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh snap, I'm going to get reamed out in my other post!


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## musicaleCA (Jul 10, 2009)

When it's something people don't understand, then they value it based on how much they pay for it, period. Hell, it's amazing in fashion how much some of these things will go for. *picks up this month's Elle Canada* A single viscose-blend dress, by Donna Karan New York: $3,295. Pg 158 for those interested. Most people would say "It's a freaking, bloody black dress!!! What's so special?!?" Truth be told, people with little understanding of design are likely to like it more simply because it costs so much; "it _must_ be better". (Personally, I could put something together that's respectably close from Sears. Yeesh. Not knocking the designer though, because it _is_ a very nice dress, and probably custom-made too.)

The point is to reinforce the comment above about percieved and actual value. Few clients out there wanting photography done are knowledgeable about photography. That's probably why they're paying for a professional photog in the first place. So, they're probably not going to recognize the artistic subtleties in your port that make you a cut-above the rest, beyond when they compare your shots to blatently underexposed, terribly composed ones. So when they see similar ports, one from someone that's $600 a wedding, and one that's $2000 per wedding, they may very well jump for the latter, just because they may percieve they're getting more out of the deal.


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## Lyncca (Jul 10, 2009)

This has been really helpful  I did go raise my prices (bottom package by $600 with the price difference and taking out some products). It still isn't high, but it won't break me either. I don't expect to book a lot yet since I don't advertise, but I plan to after the fall when I have a lot more wedding experience. Right now, everything is about getting my business plan right, equipment (I just lack a couple lenses now, that I can rent if need be), portfolio.

In my initial post I thought yall would yell at me for agreeing to shoot a wedding by myself without having shot X amount of weddings as backup and instead you tell me to raise my prices 

I have my second wedding tomorrow as a 3rd shooter. I'm excited. I hope to do really well and not be quite as nervous as last time, especially since I have already shot with the main photographer.


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## Dwig (Jul 10, 2009)

Lyncca said:


> ...
> I am just getting started though so it is so tempting to cut your prices to do it when you KNOW they aren't going to pay anyone that. ..



It is tempting, but its a foolish thing to do. Hold your prices and _don't _apologize for them.

If you need to be the low price to get business going, do so by offering less in quantity but not in quality. Perhaps offer a "basic" package where you shoot the wedding and a few posed shots afterwards, but no reception and no formals portraits. Keep the promised picture count low and make it a quick easy shoot. If you approach this right, and with excellent salesmanship, you have the opportunity to upsell after you've collected the deposit for the basic shoot

I knew a photographer some 35 years ago that did well with a similar approach. He offered a $25 shoot (~$200 in todays money) that included 12 5x5" prints in a simple album (he often delivered 14-18 prints). He barely covered cost with that fee, but it appealed to the "poor" college students that were paying their own way. His average wedding actually netted him over $100 because he was an excellent salesman and would pitch the sale of extra albums and prints to the parents.


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## ReefRunner (Jul 10, 2009)

Dwig hit the nail on thr head. Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.


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## Lyncca (Jul 13, 2009)

So, my husband talked to one of our other friends and asked if the groom said anything to him about the pics. Our friend said that yea, that he started laughing at the price I gave and said, "whatever!" so I was right that they thought I was trying to take advantage of him.

Keith (my hubby) wants to try to make it all better with them and said, well maybe you can offer them a free couple shoot after or something. I said, "uh I don't think so! I already offered a free engagement or free bridal and she turned that down and then laughed at paying $800 for a fully edited disk of photos. *I* don't have to make anything up to anyone!"

They aren't not my friends or anything, but I am certainly not going to give them more freebies!


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## bigtwinky (Jul 13, 2009)

good on you for sticking to your guns.


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## RJohnston (Jul 13, 2009)

My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package?  Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?


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## benhasajeep (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't consider myself a pro.  But I have maintained insurance and tax identies all these years as I do, some side work from word of mouth or people I have done work for in the past.

The one rule I have for true friends is do it for free (with the absolute understanding that it includes no special treatments or services) or not at all.  The saying is true about money and family and friends.  I choose to not get into the situation.  I have turned down several weddings for friends in the past.  As I don't want to get into the pricing / hurt feelings issues.  I find its best to just politely say no.  What I do for free is basically just School portraits for their kids.  Gives me a chance to break up the rust on studio work.  And really, I have the time to do a couple of them a year without loosing anything.  And now my wife is starting to learn and she likes it.  So, good chance for her to practice and learn as well.

Friends and paid work don't mix.  It's best just to stay away from it.  This is true in just about everything, not just photography.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 13, 2009)

Why do packages? Call around Fort Worth and see what wedding photogs are doing. If most of them do packages, why not try something else?

I started with wedding packages too. Got the jobs through a friend of mine who had a wedding boutique. Absolutely hated the jobs and they were not bringing in that much money. So I decided to try something else.

I started spreading the word that I was doing weddings through my editorial clients and that I was doing more of an artistic photo-journalism type work. I started getting calls right away.

And all I charged for in the contract was for my day. Always gave them the entire day for the simple reason that I didn't want to do two weddings in a day anyway. And I charged the same rate as for my editorial work. $500 /day. 25 years ago, it was decent change but the clients thought they were getting a very good deal. Even though I gave them a menu of prints and albums rates, I don't think they were thinking about how much it would end up costing. 

The average wedding netted me about $2,000. By the time I stopped the weddings a couple years later, I was charging $1,000 for the day and the average wedding netted about $3-4,000. Most of my weddings I sold 3 albums - one to the B&G and one each to the parents. The cost was easier to swallow because it was split between the different parties instead of the brides parents paying for everything. My albums were also very different. No album of 12 8x10 and a box of candids for me.

What I am trying to say is: be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better.


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## Lyncca (Jul 13, 2009)

RJohnston said:


> My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package? Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?


 
I'm pretty certain (could be wrong) that as a sole proprietor, that any money I make is the same as my normal income, and with the tax bracket I am in, approximately 33% of my income goes to taxes.  Most of my stuff last year was free, so it didn't make much difference, but if I start booking weddings, it will add up.



benhasajeep said:


> I don't consider myself a pro. But I have maintained insurance and tax identies all these years as I do, some side work from word of mouth or people I have done work for in the past.
> 
> The one rule I have for true friends is do it for free (with the absolute understanding that it includes no special treatments or services) or not at all. The saying is true about money and family and friends. I choose to not get into the situation. I have turned down several weddings for friends in the past. As I don't want to get into the pricing / hurt feelings issues. I find its best to just politely say no. What I do for free is basically just School portraits for their kids. Gives me a chance to break up the rust on studio work. And really, I have the time to do a couple of them a year without loosing anything. And now my wife is starting to learn and she likes it. So, good chance for her to practice and learn as well.
> 
> Friends and paid work don't mix. It's best just to stay away from it. This is true in just about everything, not just photography.


 
Agreed.  I don't really like doing work for friends either.  Most of my friends I shoot their kids for free, cause its enjoyable, but a wedding is different.  She really wanted me to do it though, so I gave her a bottom-line rate.  Lesson learned 



c.cloudwalker said:


> Why do packages? Call around Fort Worth and see what wedding photogs are doing. If most of them do packages, why not try something else?
> 
> I started with wedding packages too. Got the jobs through a friend of mine who had a wedding boutique. Absolutely hated the jobs and they were not bringing in that much money. So I decided to try something else.
> 
> ...


 
I don't necessarily do "packages" based on prints.  My bottom package is for me to show up and shoot your wedding, edit all the photos and deliver a CD.  From there, I add on additional Fine Art items and flush mount albums.  I add things that Joe Blow can't get without a membership to a professional lab.  If they want them, great.  If not, that's ok too.  They can print the files from the disk I give them at the lab of their choice. 

I'm sure my prices and offerings will change as I figure out what works for me.  The whole point of this was that it seems when you are a friend with someone, they expect you to work for free, where they wouldn't expect that of anyone else.


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## Soocom1 (Jul 13, 2009)

In 2005 I tried opening a business doing photography for what I thought was a sure thing-niche market:
Those who couldnt afford a photographer up in the $1000 range or above. 
In New Mexico, Photographers are a dime a dozen, and charge between $500-$20,000 a gig. (Yes I have seen the invoices).
The market doesnt allow for low-end photography as a profession.  I figured that I was not out to be a full timer, but I wanted to make it taking pictures of weddings, livestock, events, etc; at a great discount. After all (I said to myself) those families who are having an entire wedding for under $900 could use a photographer who wont charge them an arm and a leg they dont have. Most of their friends and family are the point and shoot types anyway and I figured here is a way for me to make money, build a reputation, and give a low cost alternative to the high end guys while providing Pro-end results. 
But in my pursuit to be a nice and fair good guy, I discovered one of the hardest truths of being in business. 
DONT GO CHEAP!  
The problem I had was that because I targeted those who could not afford a full priced photographer, when the economy went south, guess who got the hardest hit first? 
 I discovered that when gas prices and cost of living went up, they (my targeted customers) could not afford to even hire me. 
Remember, you have to look not only at the cost of paying yourself, (time your worth) but also material, transportation, and yes even entertainment. Replacement costs, ancillary costs, et al. Plus, that all to important aspect: The dreaded, hated and despised EVIL PROFIT!
A business cannot stay in business without a profit. 
Because my reputation had already been started, and the market here (Alb. NM) is as full of photographers as it is, there was no way for me to make it. So after 3 years of utter disappointment, and a total of only $310 in actual sales, I contacted the state and county, and closed the tax ID number.  
Lesson learned.


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## RJohnston (Jul 14, 2009)

Dwig said:


> Lyncca said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



THAT is low.  50 years ago had a package of 12 - 8x10 in a white album for $200 and an additional charge for each page additional.  Thought that was very low.... 

I'd shoot 300 shots with about 90% keepers and never had a  bride choose only 12 for the album.  They had a difficult time keeping it to less than 36 and bought other sizes separately.  Usually wound up with an album for both parents a dupe theirs.

For those who are new or fairly new Wedding Photographers, there is a link with about 50 books by Bill Hurter and others.  
You  learn from ONE book, what  the author took a lifetime to learn.

Books about Wedding Photography


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 14, 2009)

Lyncca said:


> RJohnston said:
> 
> 
> > My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package? Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?
> ...




Ho, sorry. When I see the word package I automatically think of prints being included.

But my response was not necessarily for you. More of a way of showing to anyone interested in that business that there are more ways than one to approach it. Here, I'll quote myself: "be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better."

I did not address the issue of working with friends because, it seemed to me it had already been addressed by others well enough. Looking again at your original post, I will make a few comments.

"I had already told her in her first email that I would do her bridals or an engagement as a freebie, but that there were so many things with a wedding, that I just couldn't do that for free because of all the work involved, paying for insurance, taxes, etc. I told her I would be working the whole time and not be able to really hang out like everyone else. I wanted her to know that friend or not, I took it very serious."

I don't know how much of this was actually in your email but I would not ever mention taxes, insurance, etc to a client to justify my rates. True, some people don't understand that there is a cost to doing business but that is not your problem. It's theirs.

Your rate is your rate. No one forces them to accept it. They can go somewhere else and you shouldn't get too upset about that. It's the nature of business. There will almost always be someone cheaper than you are. Do you really want to compete with them? Do you really want to be so competitive that you don't make any money? Not me, and you don't either.

I stopped doing weddings because I had developed an another business writing and photographing articles for the European press. I did very well because we have a lot of weird people and weird events in this country 
that I had easier access to than the average guy in Europe. But after a few years the European magazines were getting so many other offers from people who just wanted to see their names in print and didn't care about getting paid that I had to stop. The magazines were not willing to pay enough anymore to make it worth my time.

As for the idea of working with friends, all I can say is I try not to do it. I'll admit that I was lucky enough that only one friend ever asked me to do his wedding. It got taken care of by my asking: "Do you want me to be a guest at your wedding and enjoy your special day with you or do you want me to be working? I ask because I can't do both."

If he had said he wanted me to work, I would have presented him with a contract and said something like: "Ok, we are now in a business relationship, here is my contract, do you agree with the terms?"

But the main thing is, do not stress yourself about BS like that. It is not worth it in my book.


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## spiralcity (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree with most of the comments.

I told my own cousin "No thanks".

Family expects free-bee's. 

As much as I would like to help my cousin out, I just cant put my time on the line for a couple hundred dollars. Too much work is involved.


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