# How to get the white background bright



## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Hello,

I have just started photography of some objects using a digital camera and white muslin backdrop. 
When I look at the photo it does not show the white background bright as it looks in the product photos. How can I do that please.

I do not have budget to hire professionals nor to buy expensive software. Please help.

Regards
San


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## jwbryson1 (Jan 18, 2012)

I think it's easier to do it with a grey muslin background than with white when it comes to post processing, but it's my understanding that you need to blow out the background to ensure that it's white and not grey.  I have a white muslin backdrop that I have never used, but I think I read on this forum that lighting the backdrop can help blow it out and get it white.

I may be wrong in which case I'll get shredded by somebody who knows more than me.


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## MTVision (Jan 18, 2012)

I think you need a light on your background to get it pure white otherwise it will probably be shades of gray. Not 100% sure


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## cgipson1 (Jan 18, 2012)

You do need to light your background separately from the subject and expose the background anywhere from one to two stops brighter than the subject...... you will need to keep the subject far enough away from the background to make sure the "light splash" doesn't blow out the subject any, also.

Like this:


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## KmH (Jan 18, 2012)

Yep, you need more light on the background to keep it white in the photo.

Light power drops off as a square function with distance. It's a physical law of nature (Inverse Square law) inverse square law - Bing

A medium gray background can be use to make a white or black background if the photographer has a solid understanding of exposure. Using colored gels on the background lights a gray background can also by made a wide variety of pastel colors. if you want good saturated colors from gelled lights you need a black background.

Since you can't afford to hire a pro, you'll instead pay in the form of the time you will spend learning to accomplish on your own what a pro can do.


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok. Here are some pre-requisits: Your background must be brighter, or as bright, as the specular in your subject. If the subject is brighter than the background, then the subject will be over exposed, just as the background should be. Second, you will need the background the be as evenly lit as possible. Try lighting using two soft boxes on either side and maybe even large reflectors - You can use foam core sheets or sheets of foam insulation. You'll want to light the backdrop by itself and the subject by it self, so you'll want lights for the backdrop and lights for the subject. You could prob. do it by just lighting the subject carefully but this avoids shadows.

Now you're going to want to meter off the background and provide enough exposure that it is white. I prefer doing this in manual mode myself. It may not be a good idea to provide so much exposure that it blows out completely, but enough that it's white without clipping. Clip out only if you need to. Next you'll need to adjust the light intensity that is illuminating the subject - don't adjust the camera, adjust the lights, so that they are providing enough light to properly expose the subject.

So essentially, you're exposing for the background and lighting for the subject - make sense?


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## Big Mike (Jan 18, 2012)

I've moved the blog &#8211;> zackarias.com/blog » White Seamless Tutorial :: Part 1 :: Gear & Space


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Definately makes sense. Just narrowing down to implementation. I feel so uneducated by looking at the advice and tips from you professional guys. If I use 2 softboxes to light the mannequin, will I need softboxes to light the backdrops as well. how many watts / K should the lights be please?


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## willis_927 (Jan 18, 2012)

I believe if you are to meter the subject, and meter the background seperately, you will want to have the background about 2 stops brighter than the subject in order to have it blown out white.


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## Big Mike (Jan 18, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Definately makes sense. Just narrowing down to implementation. I feel so uneducated by looking at the advice and tips from you professional guys. If I use 2 softboxes to light the mannequin, will I need softboxes to light the backdrops as well. how many watts / K should the lights be please?


Depending on how you can place the lights, and the characteristics of the light and/or modifier...you may need one or two lights for the background.  You probably don't need softboxes for the background lights....as long as you can use one or two lights to get a fairly even spread of light on the background.  

The power and color of the light will depend on the power and color of your 'main' lights (and thus the exposure value that your camera is set to).  The color (type of blub) should be the same as your main lights.


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

willis_927 said:


> I believe if you are to meter the subject, and meter the background seperately, you will want to have the background about 2 stops brighter than the subject in order to have it blown out white.



^^ that is provided that the subject is light-skinned person. If the subject is a dark-skinned person, then the background would need to be 3-4 stops brighter. I don't like these arbitrary measurements because they don't take into account reflectance.


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> brothersanju said:
> 
> 
> > Definately makes sense. Just narrowing down to implementation. I feel so uneducated by looking at the advice and tips from you professional guys. If I use 2 softboxes to light the mannequin, will I need softboxes to light the backdrops as well. how many watts / K should the lights be please?
> ...



Exactly. it doesn't matter how you get there, so long as you have a flat background. How you light your subject is up to you, but white backgrounds tend to look best with softer shadows.


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## gsgary (Jan 18, 2012)

Another thing to be careful of is light boucing off your background, like the shot above with the gentleman with the silly hat notice his right shoulder


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Please suggest the power of the bulbs also as I will end up buying anything. Will it be ok to use 2 x 125W(525W equ) Daylight Bulbs for the softbox for the subject and slightly higher bulbs for the background? If I use these continous lights I hope there won't be any use to use the main lights?


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## cgipson1 (Jan 18, 2012)

On the background itself, I just use bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors, setup just far enough away for the spread to cover the background. I will sometimes use barndoors or a flag if I am in a tight spot, just to insure the background lights are not putting light directly on the subject.

On the subject I try to use a nice soft modifier, more because I prefer it.. than anything else. Even bare, harsh flash on your subject won't shadow the background... if the background is lit properly.


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## cgipson1 (Jan 18, 2012)

gsgary said:


> Another thing to be careful of is light boucing off your background, like the shot above with the gentleman with the silly hat notice his right shoulder



Gary.. I like that silly hat! And yes.. I should have been a little farther from the background!


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## gsgary (Jan 18, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Please suggest the power of the bulbs also as I will end up buying anything. Will it be ok to use 2 x 125W(525W equ) Daylight Bulbs for the softbox for the subject and slightly higher bulbs for the background? If I use these continous lights I hope there won't be any use to use the main lights?



You will need a main light for your subject, what are you shooting ?


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Can you please send me some links to the background lights as you said "bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors ".


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

I am shooting products. Clothing on mannequin.


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## gsgary (Jan 18, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> I am shooting products. Clothing on mannequin.



Do you have to shoot on white ?


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes mainly it will be using white background. The mannequin I am using is now black but there will be one white one as well.


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## cgipson1 (Jan 18, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Can you please send me some links to the background lights as you said "bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors ".



Check out the Flashpoint 320's... from Adorama.. very inexpensive, and do a great job. You could go with speedlights, like like the Yongnuo 560 or something.. but the monos are more powerful and easier to use.

FP320M Flashpoint II 320M, 150 Watt Second AC / DC Monolight Strobe.


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## brothersanju (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanks



cgipson1 said:


> brothersanju said:
> 
> 
> > Can you please send me some links to the background lights as you said "bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors ".
> ...


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## Bossy (Jan 18, 2012)

Something like that. I can't help you with the wattage, I really think you're over your head in this. Check out websites like B&H or Adorama for speedlights or monos. I imagine you're hoping to do this with a few lightbulbs from walmart, which I don't see happening for a full size set. Who knows, maybe you can work it out


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## gsgary (Jan 18, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Look here Studio Lights & Photography Flash Lighting Equipment UK Specialists! - Lencarta i have some of theirs very good for the money getting great reveiws


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> brothersanju said:
> 
> 
> > Can you please send me some links to the background lights as you said "bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors ".
> ...


I use the brand which adorama relables as Flashpoint. They are very good, and from what I can measure the 300ws units I own produce more light that the 400ws Alienbees according to their own specifications.


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## Derrel (Jan 18, 2012)

KmH said:
			
		

> Yep, you need more light on the background to keep it white in the photo. >SNIP>



Yes, more light on the background will make it appear whiter.That is one way of accomplishing your goal.

A second way is one I use a LOT, but which many people never even think of. It's called "key-shifting".

If you keep the SAME amount of light on the background, but use LESS LIGHT on the subject than you were using, the RATIO of background-to-foreground lighting will change.

This will also require an exposure adjustment to brighten up the foreground subject; so to compensate for the LOWER light you are using on the foreground subject, you will need to open up the lens OR elevate the ISO level a click or two or three. (or a combination) 

A good example would be a backdrop lighted by 2 x 100 watt lamps, and a foreground lighted by one 75-watt lamp...background is not white enough...so, you SHIFT the foreground light downward to a 40-watt lamp, and elevate the ISO two clicks....BOOM! Pure white background.


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

Jesus Darrel. Just make things confusing why don't you  isn't this just what I suggested?


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## Derrel (Jan 18, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Jesus Darrel. Just make things confusing why don't you  isn't this just what I suggested?



I don't know...I didn't read much except the OP's problem, and the first few posts...I then wrote my reply with a really "basic" sort of "beginner-level" terms, geared toward what I thought was a first-time product shooter who might not be familiar with the whole concept of product photography. I did not read your suggestions...


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## unpopular (Jan 18, 2012)

Its been a while since you were a beginner, huh, old man? 

But I agree, it's a better way to think of it. Instead of dumping some arbitrary amount of light on the background, it makes more sense to control the difference in light between the foreground and background and use exposure to control brightness.


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## Derrel (Jan 19, 2012)

Well, when working with a background that they want to be white, the majority of people think that they need to "add more light" to the background. And quite often, that can be done. But there are many situations where one cannot add any more light to the background to make it whiter...like they have their strobes dialed all the way to maximum power, or they have fixed-output lights that cannot be turned up any brighter...and so they think, "well, I am screwed".

Bottom line--most people think only of "adding light to the background", when in reality, there *is* another option: reducing the amount of light shot onto the foreground subject. I just was trying to explain that to a person who, it seemed like, had a limited number of tools at his disposal, and who needed a simple way to make the background white. Without the need to "add more light" to the background.

I first saw this in a Collins on Basics magazine article in the old Peterson's Photographic Magazine back in 1984 I think it was, so it's been a technique I have known about and used for 27 years or so. I cut the article out of the magazine and added it to my studio lighting tech samples book. I still have it around here someplace.


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## Buckster (Jan 19, 2012)

Derrel said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly so.  I find this to be the preferred method as well.

Also, this is misleading:


KmH said:


> A medium gray background can be use to make a white or black background if the photographer has a solid understanding of exposure. Using colored gels on the background lights a gray background can also by made a wide variety of pastel colors.


Actually, a white, gray or black background can be used to achieve those effects as well, and the gray can be any shade of gray between white and black.  It need not be a medium gray background to achieve those effects.  As to a need to have "a solid understanding of exposure" to pull it off, see Derrel's explanation above.  It does take a basic understanding, but it's not rocket science.

And this is just incorrect:


KmH said:


> if you want good saturated colors from gelled lights you need a black background.


As above, this can be achieved with a white, black or any shade of gray between them as a background.  Any of those can be used to make any shade of color there is, from pastels to deep saturations, from the lightest shades to the darkest.


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## unpopular (Jan 19, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Well, when working with a background that they want to be white, the majority of people think that they need to "add more light" to the background. And quite often, that can be done. But there are many situations where one cannot add any more light to the background to make it whiter...like they have their strobes dialed all the way to maximum power, or they have fixed-output lights that cannot be turned up any brighter...and so they think, "well, I am screwed".



Of course in the end you're pretty much doing the same thing in both cases, except that your exposure reference is the subject and not the white background - so you just keep dumping more light onto the background.

People tend to think of exposure all wrong in my opinion, and this is another symptom of the larger issue at hand: that the amount of available light, rather than the amount of reflected light, determines exposure.

As KmH said, any background can be any color with enough exposure. All that _exposure_ refers to the amount of light accumulated at the camera's sensor or film plane over a period of time. You have three ways to adjust this (aside from ISO) - increasing light available, increasing aperture or increasing time.

The only difference is that Darrel, Buckster and myself are saying to provide that exposure by adjusting the camera rather than adjusting the lights, and then lighting the subject according to the exposure settings required to get a white background. I think this is a much better approach because we already know that the background must be kept constant regardless of what how the subject is to be rendered or how much light the subject reflects. So if you meter for the subject, you'll affect not only the subject, but also the background - you'll then have to go back and adjust the background to compensate. By metering for the background, and adjusting the lighting for the subject then you only affect the exposure of the subject.

If one familiarizes themselves with the Zone System scale it becomes much easier to understand this. If your subject is Caucasian and you know that your background is at Zone IX, and the meter is reading Zone V on the model, you know you'll need to increase the amount of light at the subject by one or two stops. If your subject is Black and the meter is reading Zone XII, you know you'll need to decrease the amount of light on the subject by two to four stops depending on skin tone.

Without the darkroom end of it, the Zone System is really not all that complicated. It's essentially just exposure compensation.

The bottom line is that any tone can be rendered as any other tone - what you consider "over" or "under" exposure is kind of a misleading term. Rather, misexposure is simply a where a tonal region is "misplaced" in a darker or lighter zone than what is normally appropriate. This is why I don't use "over exposure" or "under exposure" except to describe clipping. In images which clipping does not occur, I think of it as "too dark" or "too light" - which is really an interpretation, however universal, rather than a technical fault.


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## brothersanju (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks for the lovely responses. Can you please simplify a bit more on the things that I need to cater in terms of what to buy/ where to buy / what to adjust / light.
My background is Muslin White.
Camera is ordinary digital.
Subject is mannequin to photograph clothing. Subject colour is black and a separate mannequin as white.

Now, sorry to be dumb in this ocean of professionals, my questions are:

1. Background: Should I buy background lights? 
2. Background: What kind of lights should I buy (example speed lights?) 
3. Background: What should be the watts of the lights?
4. Background: How many in numbers?
5. Background: Please suggest a (reasonable) link to buy?
6. Background: Should the background lights be continous?

7. Subject: Should I buy subject lights? 
8. Subject: What kind of lights should I buy (example softbox?) 
9. Subject: What should be the watts of the lights?
10 Subject: How many in numbers?
11. Subject: Please suggest a (reasonable) link to buy?
12. Subject: Should the subject lights be continous?

13. If I use the background and subject lights will I need any other "main" lights as I read in some posts?
14. If I use the above lights then should I use the camera flash?

Thanks a lot for your comments. Extremely useful and educative.



unpopular said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Well, when working with a background that they want to be white, the majority of people think that they need to "add more light" to the background. And quite often, that can be done. But there are many situations where one cannot add any more light to the background to make it whiter...like they have their strobes dialed all the way to maximum power, or they have fixed-output lights that cannot be turned up any brighter...and so they think, "well, I am screwed".
> ...


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## gsgary (Jan 19, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Thanks for the lovely responses. Can you please simplify a bit more on the things that I need to cater in terms of what to buy/ where to buy / what to adjust / light.
> My background is Muslin White.
> Camera is ordinary digital.
> Subject is mannequin to photograph clothing. Subject colour is black and a separate mannequin as white.
> ...



These beat the Elincrom D2's SmartFlash 3 Head mains powered Kit with twin softboxes - Flash Heads & flash kits - Lencarta
I have a few 300's very good value


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## unpopular (Jan 19, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Now, sorry to be dumb in this ocean of professionals



Do not EVER compare me to one of *them*. LMAO. 



> 1. Background: Should I buy background lights?


yes. Since your subject is stationary, they needn't be super powerful, but more power is always better.



> 2. Background: What kind of lights should I buy (example speed lights?)


It doesn't really matter. I wouldn't get speed lights. They're good for location, but if you have a power source, there is no need for the expense. If the manaquene is full-sized, you'll want more power than what simple speed lights could produce. The real important thing is that the color temp be similar. If you use incandescent, use incandescent for both the subject and teh background, if you use fluorescent, make sure use use the same type of bulb for both, if you use flash, use flash for both. I'd go with the flashpoint/mettle brand myself.



> 3. Background: What should be the watts of the lights?



For continuous lighting I'd use 400w or equivalent. Strobes I'd get at least 300ws. It's usually much better to have too much power than not enough. With my 300ws strobes, I very seldom feel like I don't have enough power - but I'm pretty new to lighting, at least the practical end of it.



> 4. Background: How many in numbers?


At least two



> 5. Background: Please suggest a (reasonable) link to buy?


Continuous lighting
FPCL1A Flashpoint Cool Light 1, 10.5" Reflector with One 55W Fluorescent Bulb, Equivalent to 225 watts
FPCL4 Flashpoint Cool Light 4 -16" Reflector with Four 55W Fluorescent Bulbs, 480 Watt Equivalent.
FPCL1KX2C Flashpoint Cool Kit with 2 10½" Reflectors, 2 30W Fluorescent Bulb (300W Equivelant), 2 7½" Stands, Carrying Case.

for flash:
FP620M Flashpoint II 620M, 300 Watt Second AC / DC Monolight Strobe. (D/C Operation Requires FP2PPN Battery Pack)
FP620AK Flashpoint II 620A Two Monolight Kit with Stands, Umbrellas,& Case

(these are identical to mine except they can be used with a battery. They aren't exactly 'professional' but they work well)



> 6. Background: Should the background lights be continous?


they can be, just make use that the foreground and background are similar in color temp. Strobes are more cost effective when you're talking lumens per dollar.

I will let someone else take on the specifics on how to light the subject, as I said, I'm pretty new to lighting.


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## brothersanju (Jan 19, 2012)




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## brothersanju (Jan 19, 2012)

What would you say about the image above?


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## unpopular (Jan 19, 2012)

You have a LONG way to go yet 

As far as the background, you need much more light. You should also iron the background, and have the subject maybe 5' minimum away.


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## brothersanju (Jan 19, 2012)

I will be popular as Unpopular "after"  This was the before.



unpopular said:


> You have a LONG way to go yet
> 
> As far as the background, you need much more light. You should also iron the background, and have the subject maybe 5' minimum away.


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## unpopular (Jan 19, 2012)

LMAO. People don't like me! And they dislike my photographs even more.


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## jaicatalano (Jan 19, 2012)

Light up the background but not so much that it wraps around your subject. Then light you subject with another light source. If you have a lot of space you will be more successful. If you have limited room it's a *****.  Trust me. I do it all day long.


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## gsgary (Jan 19, 2012)

unpopular said:


> LMAO. People don't like me! And they dislike my photographs even more.



I think your OK


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## gsgary (Jan 19, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> What would you say about the image above?



You are not allowed to post nudes on here


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## brothersanju (Jan 20, 2012)

It's semi nude gsgary. That's allowed.



gsgary said:


> brothersanju said:
> 
> 
> > What would you say about the image above?
> ...


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## unpopular (Jan 20, 2012)

lol sanju. he was just kidding  the mannequins is fine :greenpbl:


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## brothersanju (Jan 20, 2012)

Unpopularly popular, I too was kidding :meh: just watching some photography tutorials on youtube


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## brothersanju (Jan 20, 2012)

Will the background light used in this video good to use. Where can I get such background lights (UK)


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## gsgary (Jan 21, 2012)

No idea it looks like something from the early 70's, how much are you wanting to spend ?


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## unpopular (Jan 21, 2012)

A lot of people just use shop lights when they're starting up...


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## brothersanju (Jan 21, 2012)

Gary, budget around couple of hunderd pounds



gsgary said:


> No idea it looks like something from the early 70's, how much are you wanting to spend ?


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## gsgary (Jan 21, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Gary, budget around couple of hunderd pounds
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BOWENS MONOLITE 400E HEAD STUDIO FLASH KIT | eBay

Bowens Prolite 41A studio flash | eBay

Bowens pro lite 41A studio flash head and tripod stand | eBay

I'm not sure of the voltage on these so you would need a trigger


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## brothersanju (Jan 23, 2012)

Hey guys

I'm still looking for good background lights.

Please note I am looking for continous lights "new" not the flash ones. By flash I understand that they are not continous.

Please help.


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## gsgary (Jan 23, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I'm still looking for good background lights.
> 
> ...




Their studio flashes are getting good reveiws, i have 2 and will be buying another sone and getting rid of 1 of my old lights
Quadlte Continuous Light - Product shot solutions - Lencarta


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## unpopular (Jan 23, 2012)

If you're doing continuous, you canuse any old light with daylight corrected CFLs


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## cgipson1 (Jan 23, 2012)

You would be better off with flash.. but if you insist, check out the Interfit CF spyder clones...... put out a lot of light, and very adjustable

http://www.amazon.com/Interfit-Photographic-Cool-lite-Continuous-Fluorescent/dp/B000P1O7JO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1327359026&sr=8-3


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## brothersanju (Feb 5, 2012)

Hello again,
Are these lights ok for the background and subject please????

1400w Continuous Soft Box Lighting Studio Kit - Photography Softbox Photo | eBay

2 x 125W (1000W Equiv) 5500K Daylight Lighting Softbox Continuous Light Kit | eBay

If ok then which one is better.


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## gsgary (Feb 5, 2012)

brothersanju said:


> Hello again,
> Are these lights ok for the background and subject please????
> 
> 1400w Continuous Soft Box Lighting Studio Kit - Photography Softbox Photo | eBay
> ...




Both JUNK


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

gsgary said:


> Another thing to be careful of is light boucing off your background, like the shot above with the gentleman with the silly hat notice his right shoulder



I think this is extremely important based on my very limited experience.  I tried to do a 3 light shot yesterday with a speedlight on the backdrop to make it white and my model was so close to the backdrop that she was overexposed nearly every time.  I think it's because of my limited space and the light reflecting off of the backdrop.  Hard to work in a confined space.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> On the background itself, I just use bare speedlights or monos with aluminum bowl reflectors, setup just far enough away for the spread to cover the background.



Charlie, are you saying that you shoot the speedlight away from the backdrop and directly into an aluminum bowl to reflect on the backdrop?  This sounds like a good idea.

How much space is there between your model and the backdrop?


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> You would be better off with flash.. but if you insist, check out the Interfit CF spyder clones...... put out a lot of light, and very adjustable
> 
> Amazon.com: Interfit Photographic Super Cool-lite Continuous Fluorescent 2 Head Lighting Kit: Camera & Photo



Why better off using flash instead of continuous lighting to expose the background pure white?  It seems easier to use a continuous light which you can initially set up and take exposure settings from than using a flash.


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## brothersanju (Feb 5, 2012)

Gary, thanks for that, can you explain why did you vote it as junk. So do you mean that these don't solve the purpose and that every piece of these in the market is JUNK????



gsgary said:


> brothersanju said:
> 
> 
> > Hello again,
> ...


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