# Help - problem developing pinhole paper negatives!



## theres126

Hi-

My daughter is trying her hand at pinhole photography for the first time, and we're running into some problems with the developing. She did a mini-class last year, so she knows what they should look like. (she's 14) 

This is our first time at developing our own photos. She used the oatmeal box design for the camera, which she and my husband put together. She's using the resin-coated paper film. 

She's experimented with different exposure times, but every time we put it in the developer, it just develops into a smeary mess (different every time). We're using Ilford paper developer (liquid concentrated), which we mixed with water according to the directions. 

What could cause this? There are black and dark gray smears, and very little of the image. What we can see of the image (if anything), has pretty much no contrast. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks-
Theresa


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## theres126

Hi-

My daughter is trying her hand at pinhole photography for the first time, and we're running into some problems with the developing. She did a mini-class last year, so she knows what they should look like. (she's 14) 

This is our first time at developing our own photos. She used the oatmeal box design for the camera, which she and my husband put together. She's using the resin-coated paper film. 

She's experimented with different exposure times, but every time we put it in the developer, it just develops into a smeary mess (different every time). We're using Ilford paper developer (liquid concentrated), which we mixed with water according to the directions. 

What could cause this? There are black and dark gray smears, and very little of the image. What we can see of the image (if anything), has pretty much no contrast. Could it be the developer? Or the technique?????

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks-
Theresa


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## LaFoto

Heya Theresa and welcome to ThePhotoForum. I merged your two identical threads so the forum remains uncluttered. 

Let's hope you'll soon find someone to give you a hand in developing pinhole photos. I'm afraid I am not the right person to answer your questions. 

(My daughter's 14, too, by the way).


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## Alpha

This sounds like it may be a problem with the camera itself. A couple things to check off.

The paper has to be loaded and unloaded (at development time) either in complete darkness or under a safelight (amber would be preferable but a red safelight will also do). 

The pinhole in the oatmeal camera should be just bigger than pin-sized (about the size you'd make with a thumb-tack).

The camera needs to sit perfectly still during the exposure and be completely light-tight except for the pinhole.

The exposure time will generally be btw 15 and 45 seconds outdoors, depending on how bright a day it is.

You should cover the hole before you pick up the camera to carry it anywhere.

If you're doing all of that correctly, then we can talk development problems.


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## ann

smearing mess is not going to be very helpful to determine if this is a processing problem or an exposing issues.

things that are out of focus may have that "look" of smearing. things blend into each other.

can you post an example.


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## theres126

Hi again.

I'll try to get those photos posted tonight. Max - everything that you mention sounds about right for what we've done.  We did notice that when we didn't have enough developer in the tray, that the areas it touched first turned really dark - kind of like a dark stripe though the middle of the picture. We added more developer, thinking that might help, but it did the same thing. 

I'll try to scan the photos and get them up in a bit.

Thanks!

Theresa


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## Dissolution

when your "taking the photo" is the "camera" completely still? if it moves at all it will be blurry. also, make sure when you load the paper into the camera, it is loaded correctly{directly across from the hole}. alot of people will mis-align the paper.{happens ALL the time in my high school class}


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## theres126

The camera was definitely still (sitting on top of our septic field cover with a map weight on top), and as far as I could tell, the paper was loaded correctly. It's not a blurring of the image, but big streaks.  You can't really see the image at all.


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## theres126

I scanned the photos (if you can call them that!)  

How do I post them?


Thanks!


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## Dissolution

pretty sure you have to upload to an image site first{such as photobucket, or putfile}

then use the link it will give you and just copy and paste it into the reply


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## theres126

Here they are.....

Any ideas?  
























http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n226/theres126/pinhole1.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n226/theres126/pinhole2.jpg


http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n226/theres126/pinhole3.jpg


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## Dissolution

how long do you develop, stop, fix, and wash?

i think it might be chemical stains.


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## theres126

This comes up in the developer - and fast!

We develop only about 10-15 seconds, or so. Once the color starts appearing in these patterns, we pull it out. 

The stop bath is about 10 seconds, the fixer, two minutes.

But, like I said, it already looks like this when it comes out of the developer....


Could the developer be bad? (we just bought it). Could it be mixed wrong? We did follow the proportions on the bottle. 

Thanks-
Theresa


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## Dissolution

i see, the only other thing i can think of that looks like that...is fogged paper.

was the paper exposed to ANY light other than the red/amber safelight before being "shot" in the pinhole?


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## theres126

No it wasn't.  

We opened the package with only the safelight (and it was new, when we opened it)

It's frustrating, since my daughter is trying to use this as a project to get her into Governors school at her high school.  She took a course at a summer enrichment camp where they did the pinhole photography, and developed their own pictures, and they looked great. She loved it, and wants to continue it on her own.....  We're not sure what went wrong, or where to go from here!


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## JC1220

10 to 15 seconds in the developer is really short, and it looks like over exposure as well.  Adjust your exposure so you are more around 30 -60 seconds in your developer to allow for more even development.

Light leaks in the "camera" as well could cause fogging.

Could you have mixed the developer wrong? Maybe, what is it, dilution and how are you mixing it?


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## theres126

JC1220 said:


> 10 to 15 seconds in the developer is really short, and it looks like over exposure as well.  Adjust your exposure so you are more around 30 -60 seconds in your developer to allow for more even development.
> 
> Light leaks in the "camera" as well could cause fogging.
> 
> Could you have mixed the developer wrong? Maybe, what is it, dilution and how are you mixing it?




It's the Ilford concentrated (liquid) developer. According to the bottle, we mixed it at 1pt developer to 14pt water. (this was the "economical" way to mix). For better photos, it was suggested a 1/9 mix. 

My husband did the mixing, and I'm pretty sure he did it correctly.....

Our exposure ranged between 10 seconds and 20 seconds.


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## Alpha

Are you agitating? You should be moving the paper constantly in the developer.

You _are_ dropping the paper into developer and not the other way around, right?


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## theres126

Yes, we are agitating, and dropping the paper into the developer. :meh:  Do you think it could be the camera, itself? 

Looks more like developing to me, but I'm new at this.....


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## JC1220

Here is the fact sheet on the developer you are using, multigrade version I think is what you have, they suggest up to 90 seconds for RC paper, not that it needs to be in there the full time, and pulling it out of the developer about 10 seconds prior to your max development to allow it to drain before stop:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20061302049381676.pdf

If you using 1+14 an easy expression of the mix should be something like 100ml developer to 1400ml water.


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## theres126

Thanks-

I think we're going to try it all again....

One thing my husband thought of, was that when they had him push the hole through a piece of metal, the inside of the "camera" still had that silver metal piece (not black), which is directly across from the paper. Could that reflect and mess with the image on the paper?

Someone else suggested to me that we are exposing it too long, and that because of that we aren't leaving it in the developer long enough to evenly coat the paper. Seems to make sense, though we are only exposing it for 10 seconds as it is. Does that seem normal?

Sorry about all the questions - I really appreciate the help you've given!


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## Dissolution

i still think its a fogging issue of some kind. the inside of the box should be completely black, with all the nooks and crannies taped up{use black electrical tape to make it}.

as for the person saying its not in the developer long enough, didn't she say that the 10-15 seconds it is in the "patterns" already showed up? therefor wouldn't they still be there even if she developed for an hour{yes its an exaggeration...}

theres, as for the actual exposing that will depend heavily on the location you live, and the weather for the day. in georgia on a sunny day, we expose pinholes for anywhere between 5 and 45 seconds


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## JC1220

Dissolution said:


> as for the person saying its not in the developer long enough, didn't she say that the 10-15 seconds it is in the "patterns" already showed up? therefor wouldn't they still be there even if she developed for an hour{yes its an exaggeration...}


 
Fogging may very well be part of the problem. The patterns, to me, look like when you drop a print on top and the developer washes over you get similar patterns and if you pull it out as those appear and dump it in the stop, well thats what you get, uneven development at such short times.


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## theres126

Thanks for everyone's suggestions and ideas!

I think we got rid of the weird lines - we made sure everything was sealed (though I still wonder about the silver metal that the pinhole is through, and we made sure that the paper film was put all the way in the developer in one swoop. 

After some trial and error, we got a couple of photos that actually look like photo negatives.  

For some reason though, there's not a whole lot of contrast in the picture, unlike the pictures she took at camp last summer. Those were definitely dark and light, and you could see a lot of detail. Ours look good when just looking at the trees, but the foreground is kind of a washed out gray look. (she tried taking a volleyball in front of our woods - the woods look good, but you can hardly distinguish the volleyball)  We tried one of a view up the road as well, and once again the trees look good, but the road is very washed out - you can't really tell it's a road..... 

What can be done to try to increase contrast in the whole picture? 

Thanks again!!


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## Dissolution

im pretty sure contrast is "controlled" by the pinhole.


when you say your worried about the metal the hole is in, what do you mean? like, you cut off a piece of silver{drink can etc} and drilled the hole through it, then attached that to the box? if so, i would probably just make sure the metal on the "back" is colored black. silver on the outside shouldn't effect anything.

i know you've put alot of work into this camera, but the easiest pinhole ive ever shot, was made out of a silver metal paint-can. the inside is already colored completely to block out unwanted light, then its completely light tight when you put the lid on. the only thing is you gotta carry around a flat head screwdriver or somethin you can pry the lid open with lol


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## theres126

You're exactly right - the hole and metal piece are just like you described. That's one thing we were wondering about, since the "inside" of the metal piece is still silver. 

I like the paint can idea!  (actually, my daughter told me that the one she used at her camp was about that side)   What timing - we just threw out an old paint can this morning!! :blushing:  What did you use to cover the pinhole? 

Doesn't the silver inside of the paint can affect the outcome? It seems that it would make the light that is coming in, bounce around........  (kind of like the silver metal piece I was asking about)

I think we're going to try to seal the oatmeal box a bit more - especially around the lid. Hopefully that will help with the contrast. I've seen some that are covered in black - either paint or plastic. I wonder if that makes a difference????


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## Dissolution

as for the box, a couple kids in our class used them. and the teacher recommended painting the ENTIRE box{inside and out}. i think it was just a precaution though. but i would tape{with black electrical tape} around all the corners/edges.

for the paintcan, the inside isn't orange, its more of a creamy grey color, which does a good job at neutralizing the light. the only difference between it and a box, is that you dont have to "modify" it except with the actual hole. which in class we use a small piece of brass, and drill the hole through both the brass and the can, then attach the brass to the can. for a "shutter" we would use a black magnet, or a piece of black tape

buut...keep in mind...im tellin everything i know from 2 semesters of photography class...lol, before i took it in highschool{im a senior in highschool now and doing traditional black and white 35 and 120 film} i had no idea what a pinhole camera was lol


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## JamesD

The streaks in your original posted images are almost certainly uneven development caused by much too short a development time.  The highlights of the image (darkest areas in the negative) tend to show up very quickly (almost instantly with my Ilford paper and Dektol dev), but the shadow areas take longer, usually a full minute or more.  Don't be afraid to leave it in for the full development time.  Also, agitate by rocking the tray a couple of times every fifteen seconds or so.  If the images are overexposed, shorten your exposure time or use a smaller pinhole.

You can also try diluting the developer.  For instance, the standard Dektol mix is 1:1 water/developer stock.  I use 5:1 (more water) for paper negatives.  Increasing the dilution also tends to soften contrast, however.  If you have serious low-contrast problems and you're using variable contrast paper, you can try adding a high-contrast VC printing filter in front of or (preferrably) behind the pinhole.  This will, of course, increase your exposure time.  Note that with VC papers, you'll get some weird contrast effects depending on the colors present in your subject if you don't filter.

What's the distance between your pinhole and the paper you're using for film?  Mine is usually about six inches (150mm), and I use a .5mm diameter pinhole, exposing for 45-60 seconds in bright sunlight.  Also, at that distance, with a small pinhole, the silver reflection shouldn't be a problem, but it can't hurt to paint everything flat black.  Also, taping off seams, edges, corners, and anywhere else light might leak in is a very good idea.


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