# I just need to VENT!



## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

VENTING:


Not sure if this fits the "Photographic Discussions" thread but I really just want to vent to others who will understand where I am coming from. 
I started my own photography business doing mostly family portraits about a year ago in the hopes that I may one day evolve into a wedding photographer. I come from a super teeny tiny town where everyone knows everyone and after I "started up shop" lots of people I grew up were very interested in giving me a go and letting me use their children and families for practice. Now, almost a year later, I feel confidant in my work. I am charging for my work, I feel like my business has made great strides considering I have never had any formal training and self taught everything to myself. Pouring hours and hours everyday starting at early morning, ending at late in the evening studying other photographer's work, tutorials, lens education, filters, ISO, full-framed bodies, lighting, off flash techniques, ect, ect, blah, blah, blah. I joined this forum to learn even more and get "real" insight from top notch pros. I'm still learning, I'm still improving (I hope I'm improving!) and do not by any means stick myself above anyone else work wise. I am newbie and will be a newbie in any other photographer's eyes until I've saddled 10 years of experience and have a glowing portfolio full of flawless work, however, now that my work has become more than just "popular" in my community I feel like every and anyone I went to high school with in this teeny tiny town wants to be a PHOTOGRAPHER! SO AGGRAVATING!! Not that I don't want someone to appreciate this art form, or use it as an expressive outlet or growing hobby, but DAMN! RIGHT WHEN I FINALLY FIND MY OWN "GROOVE" WHERE I BELONG EVERY TOM, DICK & HARRY PICKS UP A CAMERA!! I'm sure this seems childish but seeing as I come from such a teeny tiny town, I can't vent my frustration without fearing my name will be slandered for "unprofessional-ism" throughout the area. It just really sucks when I finally find something I truly enjoy and right when I start pulling in big gigs like charity pageants and weddings, it's like these people on facebook see it and think, "Oh! Well if she can do it, so can I!" without having a single artistic bone in their body. Now I am left to compete with people who are charging 1/3 of my fees (and I'm not pulling a hefty price-tag either, in fact I'm on the low end in this category) who don't know the first thing about running a business! 
UGHH. 
Again, sorry if this didn't fit the topic forum. I just needed to type this sh** out and let loose. I'm keeping a smile pasted on when I see them in person (so far there are FIVE people I know from school that have come out of the woods with this bs in the last year!) and are congratulating them for "opening a business" to save face and appear gracefully unchallenged, but man I am pissed.


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

Well if you are as good as you say your are you have nothing to worry about. 

Capitalism is the business world's version of survival of the fittest. Sick and lame business will be eaten by the faster more aggressive tigers out there. Be a tiger!


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

thanks runnah, like I said, just needing to vent. I'm sure I looked to be one of these annoying "pop-up" photographers to another business out there at some point. Damn is it infuriating.


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## ronlane (Jan 29, 2014)

Amber, I read your rant and would be lying if I told you, I've never felt that frustration too. I am not in business, I have pulled back and decided to do it the "right" way, so that if/when I do it, I will be in a position to be around for 10-15-20 years doing photography for at least some of my income.

That being said, I will try to offer you solace in that, by doing things the "right" way and learning the craft and the business side of things you will be an "Outlier", and will be in business, long after those people have moved on to the "next big thing that is easy to make money at".

We know the truth that "it ain't easy".


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks ronlane. I am still new at this, I am still producing amateur work at times and do not nail every shoot but I feel I have made vast improvements and have earned my title as a business owner. Because when I do hit a shoot right on the head, my work shines (a least in my eyes). I in no way depend on my "career" as my main source of income at all (my husband works and I stay at home with our son) it was a hobby I enjoyed passionately that kind of just fell into a business after some pushing and prodding from family and friends. Just feel like all these "come & go" photographers are sucking all the fun out of it. I will fail and I will conquer some days in this line of work, but I plan to stick it out.


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

I've never felt your frustration, simply because I can't be bothered worrying about what other people are doing. I have enough on my plate worrying about what I've got going on. If I were to start worrying about every other photographer in town I'd never get anything done.

Worrying about others, and certainly ranting about it, is a waste of time and energy. Instead of wasting that time and energy complaining about something you have zero control over, why not direct it constructively into your own endeavors?

Wouldn't that make more sense?


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## Light Guru (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> I'm sure this seems childish but seeing as I come from such a teeny tiny town, I can't vent my frustration without fearing my name will be slandered for "unprofessional-ism" throughout the area.



And yet you post it online and list your name website and town on your profile.  A simple google search of you might easily show the people in your town this post. 



AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Now I am left to compete with people who are charging 1/3 of my fees



And Im sure there work is also 1/3 as good.

Ever since inexpensive DSLRs started coming out LOTS of people have thought I can buy a camera and be a photographer.  Someone else may have even felt the same way you feel now toward you when you started.  Its nothing new.

As long as the images you make are better then the ones they "wannabe photographers" make then you have nothing to worry about even if they are charging less.  Most people understand you get what you pay for.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

Steve5D, very true, very true. I should suck it up and I will. Right now I just wanted to type it all out of me. As someone else has said, they'll most likely dissolve all on their own. Just need to raise the bar for myself!


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Just feel like all these "come & go" photographers are sucking all the fun out of it.



What are _they _doing that makes it _not _fun for _you_?

How does whatever _they're_ doing adversely impact _you _and what _you _do?


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree


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## Designer (Jan 29, 2014)

Hi, Amber!  I think I understand completely.  Bear in mind that photography is very popular, and for some folks to want to earn money at it seems like a natural progression.  After all, you did.

Now the only advice I can offer at his time is to simply be better than the others.  Visibly, obviously better.  Then you won't have to say or do anything if people can see that you are truly talented.

BTW: How good are you?


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> And yet you post it online and list your name website and town on your profile.  A simple google search of you might easily show the people in your town this post.



Excellent point...


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

> And yet you post it online and list your name website and town on your profile. A simple google search of you might easily show the people in your town this post.



Ok you're right on this one. Guess the lightbulb didn't click fast enough. But at this point at least I'm venting to an outside source besides social media. Now with clients "friending" me online along with these other "businesses" I have to have a very filtered opinion everywhere I go. This post gave a small feeling of relief. My apologies if I come off as daft.


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

I suggest an aggressive campaign of sabotage.


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

If it's given you a bit of relief, then it's time to let it go.

Seriously, if you spend your time worrying about what other people are doing, you're never going to be able to put 100% into what _you're _doing. That's when someone else in town surpasses you, and you'll have only yourself to blame...


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

> Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree



Please read my "rant" again. I never stated I was a spectacular photographer. That was a very rude comment to make. I am simply VENTING my frustration to a community of people that take their work as seriously as I take my own. Skill level aside I have worked my ass off improving myself.


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree
> 
> 
> 
> Please read my "rant" again. I never stated I was a spectacular photographer. That was a very rude comment to make. I am simply VENTING my frustration to a community of people that take their work as seriously as I take my own. Skill level aside I have worked my ass off improving myself.



Don't worry, gary thinks anything that isn't on film, British or before 1973 is terrible.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

The topic has shifted from my simply human vent to people telling "how I feel and what I can do to make it better" fantastic. Good day to you all.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 29, 2014)

except runnah, who has at least had a few decent things to say.


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## Designer (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> The topic has shifted from my simply human vent to people telling "how I feel and what I can do to make it better" fantastic. Good day to you all.



O.K., I admit that I often misunderstand.  Why did you post if you didn't want anybody to respond?


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > > Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree
> ...



Film is getting very popular with portrait and wedding photography it's one way to make you stand out from the rest


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> except runnah, who has at least had a few decent things to say.



Ask anyone and they will tell you I am a shining beacon of positivity. 

If they don't, they are a ****ing ******* and a liar.


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree
> 
> 
> 
> Please read my "rant" again. I never stated I was a spectacular photographer. That was a very rude comment to make. I am simply VENTING my frustration to a community of people that take their work as seriously as I take my own. Skill level aside I have worked my ass off improving myself.



Get used to it, anyone can buy a camera but it takes years to produce photos that will stand way above the rest


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## astroNikon (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm not a pro by any means.  But just owning a camera by no means gives someone experience and knowledge of how to create a keepsake, memorable photograph versus just a snapshot.

I keep learning and trying to take portraits only to look at my test shots and forget to do this or that.  One of these days I'll take an okay portrait.  :|

Someone newbie with a camera is just going to point and shoot.  Hopefully your studio shots are far above the beginner stage.

I wouldn't worry about it.  The more you worry, the more cameras you are going to see out there.


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Film is getting very popular with hipster portrait and wedding photography, it's one way to charge way more for the same end results.



Fixed.


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

This thread will be closed before page 5


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Film is getting very popular with hipster portrait and wedding photography, it's one way to charge way more for the same end results.
> ...



********


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## ronlane (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > except runnah, who has at least had a few decent things to say.
> ...




You are shining* bacon *of positivity? hmmm, pictures of that please. lol


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

gsgary said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



I want to kiss you on the mouth.


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



you would get a knuckle sandwich


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## Derrel (Jan 29, 2014)

Amber,
   Your letter might have been written in the 1890's, when rollfilm became popular, and glass plates were no longer the main way to shoot. Or it might have been written in 1931, during the first couple of years of the flashbulb, as people flocked to "indoor event photography" using the then-new technique of flashbulbs. Your venting might have been written in the late 1950's, as high-quality Japanese-made rangefinder 35mm cameras and then-new electronic flash units or "winklights" made shooting MANY flash pictures affordable. Your rant might have been written in 1990, as 35mm autofocus SLR's enabled people to become "photographers".

Photography as a field has ALWAYS drawn a lot of people who want to work in the field. You need to be better, and more-dedicated that the other people to succeed to the highest level. But whatever level you achieve, stop worrying about "the other people".

Watch the video at this link.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Not sure if this fits the "Photographic Discussions" thread but I really just want to vent to others who will understand where I am coming from.



Well if it's from somewhere in the vincinity of the Messier 83 Galaxy then I probably will - lol



> I started my own photography business doing mostly family portraits about a year ago in the hopes that I may one day evolve into a wedding photographer.



Well I can check on this for you but I'm fairly certain you'll either need to fall into a vat of toxic waste or be bitten by a radioactive insect of some sort to make this happen.



> I am newbie and will be a newbie in any other photographer's eyes until I've saddled 10 years of experience and have a glowing portfolio full of flawless work, however, now that my work has become more than just "popular" in my community



So I guess the question is, why care what "other photographers" think? If your stuff sells and your making money then not much point in worrying about it really.




> I feel like every and anyone I went to high school with in this teeny tiny town wants to be a PHOTOGRAPHER! SO AGGRAVATING!! Not that I don't want someone to appreciate this art form, or use it as an expressive outlet or growing hobby, but DAMN! RIGHT WHEN I FINALLY FIND MY OWN "GROOVE" WHERE I BELONG EVERY TOM, DICK & HARRY PICKS UP A CAMERA!!



A frustration expressed in one fashion or another by most anyone who's tried making a living at photography at one time or another. A frustration no doubt voiced by some other photographer a year or so ago when you picked up your camera and decided to go into business.



> I'm sure this seems childish



Well maybe but if it didn't you couldn't really call it venting now could you


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## astroNikon (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Film is getting very popular with hipster portrait and wedding photography, it's one way to charge way more for the same end results.
> ...



You fixed Gary ?

oh my ...


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## pjaye (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> Well if you are as good as you say your are you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Capitalism is the business world's version of survival of the fittest. Sick and lame business will be eaten by the faster more aggressive tigers out there. Be a tiger!



This. If you are that good, then people will come to you. If you truly have the talent and those other tom's don't, you will get the business.

At the same time, anyone has the right to start a business. Just like you did.


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## EIngerson (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm pretty sure the people that patronize those other photographers will learn a valuable lesson in "You get what you pay for."


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## BillM (Jan 29, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> You fixed Gary ?
> 
> oh my ...



I had that done to one of my dog's one, he didn't like it


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## JerryVenz (Jan 29, 2014)

Amber,

Now you know how even the "old pros" feel !! I've been watching this trend accelerate over the last 5-years with no end in sight.

I looked at your website and if you want some feedback from a portrait and wedding pro. with over 25-years in the business ( Also a PPA, Certified, Master Photographer ) here are my first impressions:

Your work is far better than I expected--you really do show promise!!

Very much to your credit you are not flashing your subjects on your outdoor sessions.  Continue to develop your natural light technique--it will serve you well in your future wedding work and set you apart from the hordes of newbies that use speedlights outside even when they have no clue how to do studio lighting.

You must also set yourself apart from the low-budget newbies by NOT competing with them on PRICE.  You can't win a race to the bottom on price.

You really need to RAISE YOUR PRICES so you are not on the low end.  Being a low end photographer is NOT PROFITABLE. Just look at the bankruptcy of the largest chain of low end studios that operated in WALMART !!

In addition, how about not offering the same low-end product THEY build their so called businesses around--DIGITAL FILES.

The ARTIST sells PRINTS--fully artworked, archivally mounted, with maybe a texture and a protective spray coating, and framed, going out your door and onto their wall. The low-end SHOOTER burns a disk and walks away.

These things will set you apart from today's growing horde of weedend SHOOTERS.

If you have any questions or would like more input on these or any photographic advice e-mail me at Jerry@thestorytellersusa.com


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## KelSS90 (Jan 29, 2014)

Just an unrelated FYI - your site isn't really working for the mobile version (or at least not for the iPhone). You can only see the left portion of the page, so just a few images of each section, the hours included but not the pricing structure, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pjaye (Jan 29, 2014)

gsgary said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



With bacon?


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> > Heard it all before, had a look at your website nothing spectacular apart from one in the couples where it looks like he is shagging his girlfriend against the tree
> 
> 
> 
> Please read my "rant" again. I never stated I was a spectacular photographer. That was a very rude comment to make. I am simply VENTING my frustration to a community of people that take their work as seriously as I take my own. Skill level aside I have worked my ass off improving myself.



You know, you may take offense to what he said, but you'd damn well better take heed, too. If _he's_ not seeing anything spectacular, maybe the people you're complaining about didn't either, and saw no reason to sit back while you improved. You, by your own admission, are "still producing amateur work at times". Well, let me give you a piece of advice: STOP IT. If you're producing amateur stuff, _stop producing amateur stuff_. You say you're charging for your work. Do you charge for the amateurish stuff, too? I think it's pretty ridiculous to complain about others charging for their work when you're not able to produce the professional results your clients will demand time _every single time_. 

You _have _to do that; it's part of being a professional. 

If you only nail it 80% of the time, you're never going to make it in this business. You can't go around saying you're not the best photographer out there. You need to let others prove that you're _not_. Make someone _else _step up _their _game instead of engaging in this self deprecation thing you've got going. Be unabashed about your talents and your work. If someone wants to know who the best portrait photographer in town is, you'd damn well better be saying "I AM!". If you say anything else, then you've only yourself to blame when you lose the gig. 

I don't know how old you are, but I get the sense that you're young. One thing you should learn is that there's little time for humility when it comes to trying to land a client. They came to you. It's your job to keep them, and the way to do that _isn't_ by saying "I'm not the best" or "I can't get pro results every time". 

Bottom line? Stop worrying about everyone else. Do what _you _do, the way you want to do it, and don't let the fact that you think someone _else _isn't ready be a hindrance because, if it is, you need to get outta' this game now...


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


I want in on this.


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

kathyt said:


> I want in on this.



I'll bring the Trident.


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

Honestly regarding this thread, I never cared what anyone else was doing. I cared about what I was doing. How are MY skills? How consistent am I? How am I going to run my business? How much money did I want to make? Once I focused on that is when I started turning a profit.


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

Also, don't always accept the point of view that the people charging 1/3 of what you are are bad photographers. I've met some very good photographers who were simply unaware that they would be able to charge more...


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

The good news is that there are always people getting married, having kids and graduating  so there is an endless supply of customers.


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> The good news is that there are always people getting married, having kids and graduating  so there is an endless supply of customers.


And the divorce rate is high, so then maybe they will get married again! See.....light at the end of the tunnel!


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## minicoop1985 (Jan 29, 2014)

Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!


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## Designer (Jan 29, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!



Let's make it pro-active!  Take wedding pictures, and print them on perforated paper.  Future split will make it SO EASY to tear the photo right down the middle neatly.  GENIUS!


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## robbins.photo (Jan 29, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!



Genius.  Complete and total genius.  I can see it now - the unhappy couple sitting facing away from each other and scowling.   A shot of the wedding ring at the bottom of a toilet bowl.  A shot of all the husband's fishing gear/favorite hobby stuff sitting on the curb with a sign that says "Free to a good home" hanging on it.. 

Oh ya, endless possibilities.  Lol


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 29, 2014)

I didn't read though all the responses as I've heard all of this before, and as much as I understand the frustration of how every Tom, Dick and Harry with a camera wants to be a photographer.  I've been a professional photographer for over 35 years and can honestly say that not only every Tom, Dick and Harry with a camera  wants, and thinks they can be a photographer, so do pretty much every other name you could possibly come up with is there as well.

It won't get easier. Just learn to be better.


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## manaheim (Jan 29, 2014)

So you... a year into being a photographer... have the audacity to complain about other people daring to break into the industry?

Seriously?


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## JacaRanda (Jan 29, 2014)

I think you are learning a vent is never just a vent.  Not when you want or have an audience.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve5D (Jan 29, 2014)

manaheim said:


> So you... a year into being a photographer... have the audacity to complain about other people daring to break into the industry?
> 
> Seriously?



Well, yeah, then there's _that_...


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

minicoop1985 said:


> Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!


I have already tapped this market!


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> minicoop1985 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!
> ...


And the ex-wife sitting on the opposite side with all of the money leaving him dead a** broke! Oh and getting ready to drive off in her new BMW!


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## IByte (Jan 29, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> VENTING:
> 
> Not sure if this fits the "Photographic Discussions" thread but I really just want to vent to others who will understand where I am coming from.
> I started my own photography business doing mostly family portraits about a year ago in the hopes that I may one day evolve into a wedding photographer. I come from a super teeny tiny town where everyone knows everyone and after I "started up shop" lots of people I grew up were very interested in giving me a go and letting me use their children and families for practice. Now, almost a year later, I feel confidant in my work. I am charging for my work, I feel like my business has made great strides considering I have never had any formal training and self taught everything to myself. Pouring hours and hours everyday starting at early morning, ending at late in the evening studying other photographer's work, tutorials, lens education, filters, ISO, full-framed bodies, lighting, off flash techniques, ect, ect, blah, blah, blah. I joined this forum to learn even more and get "real" insight from top notch pros. I'm still learning, I'm still improving (I hope I'm improving!) and do not by any means stick myself above anyone else work wise. I am newbie and will be a newbie in any other photographer's eyes until I've saddled 10 years of experience and have a glowing portfolio full of flawless work, however, now that my work has become more than just "popular" in my community I feel like every and anyone I went to high school with in this teeny tiny town wants to be a PHOTOGRAPHER! SO AGGRAVATING!! Not that I don't want someone to appreciate this art form, or use it as an expressive outlet or growing hobby, but DAMN! RIGHT WHEN I FINALLY FIND MY OWN "GROOVE" WHERE I BELONG EVERY TOM, DICK & HARRY PICKS UP A CAMERA!! I'm sure this seems childish but seeing as I come from such a teeny tiny town, I can't vent my frustration without fearing my name will be slandered for "unprofessional-ism" throughout the area. It just really sucks when I finally find something I truly enjoy and right when I start pulling in big gigs like charity pageants and weddings, it's like these people on facebook see it and think, "Oh! Well if she can do it, so can I!" without having a single artistic bone in their body. Now I am left to compete with people who are charging 1/3 of my fees (and I'm not pulling a hefty price-tag either, in fact I'm on the low end in this category) who don't know the first thing about running a business!
> ...



That's why if you're good at something...never do it for free

-Joker


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

kathyt said:


> And the ex-wife sitting on the opposite side with all of the money leaving him dead a** broke! Oh and getting ready to drive off in her new BMW!



I skipped the middle part and just bought a house for a woman I hate.


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## IByte (Jan 29, 2014)

Designer said:


> Hi, Amber!  I think I understand completely.  Bear in mind that photography is very popular, and for some folks to want to earn money at it seems like a natural progression.  After all, you did.
> 
> Now the only advice I can offer at his time is to simply be better than the others.  Visibly, obviously better.  Then you won't have to say or do anything if people can see that you are truly talented.
> 
> BTW: How good are you?



Lol thank god I chose bash language with a side of physics as my passion lol. 

No worries Amber, take it as a sign of flattery that they want to follow in your foot steps...enjoy the love


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## kathyt (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > And the ex-wife sitting on the opposite side with all of the money leaving him dead a** broke! Oh and getting ready to drive off in her new BMW!
> ...


What is the middle part?


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## IByte (Jan 29, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> You know, you may take offense to what he said, but you'd damn well better take heed, too. If he's not seeing anything spectacular, maybe the people you're complaining about didn't either, and saw no reason to sit back while you improved. You, by your own admission, are "still producing amateur work at times". Well, let me give you a piece of advice: STOP IT. If you're producing amateur stuff, stop producing amateur stuff. You say you're charging for your work. Do you charge for the amateurish stuff, too? I think it's pretty ridiculous to complain about others charging for their work when you're not able to produce the professional results your clients will demand time every single time.
> 
> You have to do that; it's part of being a professional.
> 
> ...



+5 pints for that


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## runnah (Jan 29, 2014)

kathyt said:


> What is the middle part?



Unimaginable pain and suffering.


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## snowbear (Jan 29, 2014)

If you are learning the craft, take pride in that.  Worry about how to give your (potential) customers the best product that you can.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 29, 2014)

manaheim said:


> So you... a year into being a photographer... have the audacity to complain about other people daring to break into the industry?
> 
> Seriously?



This has been a test of the emergency crazed bunny response system.  This was only a test.  Had this been a full blown ninja bunny attack, the warning tone you just heard would have been followed by news and information.  This was only a test.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum activity.


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## sleist (Jan 29, 2014)

runnah said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > What is the middle part?
> ...



With a first course of sex to keep you off balance and hopeful.


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## minicoop1985 (Jan 29, 2014)

sleist said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > kathyt said:
> ...



And a side of "We can still be friends" to rub salt in the wounds.


Steve5D said somewhere "If you only nail it 80% of the time, you'll never make it in this business." This is why I have no desire to be a professional. I give you guys that are a lot of credit-it's something I can't say I could do, that's for sure.


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## NancyMoranG (Jan 30, 2014)

Did anyone notice our OP has left the building, like on page 2?
Nancy


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
I needed to vent. Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve. I am eager to learn as much as I can about this business. At least I'm not parking my camera in auto all day and crossing my fingers that photoshop will deliver the goods from a crappy photo. I am putting my all in. My situation isn't ideal since I have next to no budget to work with but I am doing what I can. I'm improving as efficiently as I can. It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level. What it boils down to is that I am not pissed about someone new breaking into this industry, I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.


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## ratssass (Jan 30, 2014)

i like turtles


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## astroNikon (Jan 30, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
> I needed to vent. Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve. I am eager to learn as much as I can about this business. At least I'm not parking my camera in auto all day and crossing my fingers that photoshop will deliver the goods from a crappy photo. I am putting my all in. My situation isn't ideal since I have next to no budget to work with but I am doing what I can. I'm improving as efficiently as I can. It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level. What it boils down to is that I am not pissed about someone new breaking into this industry, I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to  shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.



happens all the time. 
A friend sees that you are into photography and make some money at it
and they think .. I can do that

hey .. cameras are cheap after all (on the low end).  The problem starts escalating for them when they start learning $tuff $$$$

as mentioned by everyone .. what differentiates you and them is skill and experience. Their low ball price only goes so far until their clientele notices too.  Can't do much for people wanting to pay lowball prices for things and end up being dissatisfied.   Just search this forum for weddings gone wrong.


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## MGRPhoto (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm curious.... to the veteran studio/wedding photographers who have replied with something along the lines of "this has always been the case".... do you not think it has changed recently? I've seen quite a few 30+ year old studios go out of business in the last couple of years and I got a chance to talk to one of the owners the other day. He told me that people just don't care about quality photography anymore. Quite a few wedding bookings he had over the past few years were canceled because the client's "uncle" had an iPhone and it has a great camera. Once upon a time the client would have been upset by the outcome of having someone with no photography experience take their wedding photos with any iPhone. I guess that's not the case anymore. Nowadays with the popularity of stupid things Instagram all you have to do is put some dirty filter on a crappy photo and it becomes a phenomenal work of art. People are become numb to crappy quality. I've seen so many people posting senior portraits and wedding photos that were clearly done by an amateur with something along the lines of Instagram that I'm no longer surprised these high end studios are going out of business. And they thinks it's great photography just because it has a stupid digital vintage filter or something applied to it. Maybe it's just a regional thing? As I said just curious to see if you guys have seen the same.


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## Designer (Jan 30, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level.



No comment here, but repeating my question:  How good are you?  

In case you're still reading here, even if you don't choose to respond; ARE you any good?  

This is relevant to many of the posts here that tell you to to never mind the wannabes and just be a better photographer.


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## gsgary (Jan 30, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
> I needed to vent. Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve. I am eager to learn as much as I can about this business. At least I'm not parking my camera in auto all day and crossing my fingers that photoshop will deliver the goods from a crappy photo. I am putting my all in. My situation isn't ideal since I have next to no budget to work with but I am doing what I can. I'm improving as efficiently as I can. It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level. What it boils down to is that I am not pissed about someone new breaking into this industry, I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.




Removed Admin -- KEEP IT CLEAN!


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## robbins.photo (Jan 30, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..



Hmm.. you know the last time a woman left me a note it was to tell me we were getting divorced - so not a big fan of the leave a note process.. lol



> I needed to vent. Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve. I am eager to learn as much as I can about this business.



Which is great.  The thing to keep in mind though is that at least in my experience professional photographers are a pretty independent minded bunch.  They work in a very competitive field where even the smallest edge or advantage can sometimes mean the difference between getting a gig and losing one, so by and large they just really aren't a huggy/sympathetic bunch really.  Don't get me wrong, a lot of the pros we have that frequent the forum are great people who will readily share a lot of extremely valuable information.

But stop and think for a moment how frustrated you are by all these people with almost no skill whatsoever trying to break into the photography business, competing directly with you for customers and driving down prices.  As you mentioned in your vent, that really stinks.  Now just imagine going through that same frustration not for 1 year, but for 10, or 15, or 20 or even more.  From their perspective you are doing the same thing to them that the other photographers in your area with almost no experience are doing to you.  I'm not saying your wrong or bad for starting your own business and obviously at least some of the folks in the area must be happy with the results or you probably would be out of business by now.  

But the thing to keep in mind is that for a lot of the folks who shoot pro and have for a long time they've been dealing with this same frustation themselves, so try to understand where they are coming from on this one - that's really all I'm saying.  

As to the criticism about your work, well really the only folks who's opinions about the quality of your work should matter are your paying customers.  If you can find some useful information in some of the various critique from the peanut gallery, great - use it to improve.  If you can't, discard it and move on.  Not much point in getting bent out of shape about the opinions of folks who are never going to be paying customers anyway.



> At least I'm not parking my camera in auto all day and crossing my fingers that photoshop will deliver the goods from a crappy photo.



Is that a bad thing?  lol.. 



> I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.



I guarantee you if you were to post pictures of that they'd get rave reviews.. lol.  But being serious for a moment (which is very much out of character for me so it may not come off right), if you really want my advice just do your thing and focus on the stuff that will improve your business, which at the moment of course is mostly going to be improving your skills.  Don't worry about what anyone else says or does and just focus on the stuff you can control, not the stuff you can't.

Just my 2 cents worth of course, your mileage may vary.


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## Derrel (Jan 30, 2014)

Designer said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level.
> ...



Yes, many people have left the business, because there is MUCH more competition from people like yourself. It's true--the quality of "professional photography" has declined, markedly so, over the entire span of the digital age, as more and more newbies have hung out shingles and begun calling themselves professional photographers after a year or two of learning the basics of how to operate a camera. The people who offer real, genuine skill and artistry with a camera are still working, but the vast majority of beginner-level and even intermediate-level people are not having a lot of monetary success it seems. The smarter ones among this flood of new "professional photographers" have moved onto weddings, where a couple of years' worth of learning and practicing how to operate a camera and a flash and a few lenses is what passes for being a "wedding photographer" these days, and it's a genre where they can change a couple thousand dollars or more for six hours of shooting and a day or so of post work.

Studying how to operate a camera, learning f/stops and shutter speeds and focusing points is NOT what determines success. There's much,much,much more to it. THere's marketing and business skills, getting paperwork done and sent out, collecting receipts, accounting, building relationships, as well as the entire SKILL-SET and ABILITY-SET that a really successful photographer should have. Studying how to operate a camera really isn;t much of an accomplishment, but it seems like a lot of new professional photographers think that since they started with zero knowledge that once they get just a tiny bit of competence, that they are really good, and that the money will just start flowing in.


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## KmH (Jan 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Studying how to operate a camera really isn;t much of an accomplishment, but it seems like a lot of new professional photographers think that since they started with zero knowledge that once they get just a tiny bit of competence, that they are really good, and that the money will just start flowing in.


QFT.


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## gsgary (Jan 30, 2014)

gsgary said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
> ...



That was clean

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## manaheim (Jan 30, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
> I needed to vent. Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve. I am eager to learn as much as I can about this business. At least I'm not parking my camera in auto all day and crossing my fingers that photoshop will deliver the goods from a crappy photo. I am putting my all in. My situation isn't ideal since I have next to no budget to work with but I am doing what I can. I'm improving as efficiently as I can. It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level. What it boils down to is that I am not pissed about someone new breaking into this industry, I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.



Here's the advice you're looking for.

1. Spend far less time worrying about, and judging, others.
2. Invest that time in improving your craft and your business.
3. Never vent.

Follow those three rules and you'll be fine.


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## robbins.photo (Jan 30, 2014)

manaheim said:


> Here's the advice you're looking for.
> 
> 1. Spend far less time worrying about, and judging, others.



Ok, but that will take most of the fun out of life.  And really shouldn't there be an automatic exception for former cheerleaders in there somewhere?  I mean if you can't judge them that pretty much scratches everybody off your list.. lol



> 2. Invest that time in improving your craft and your business.



Do something.. productive?  Egads.  You know, that's just so crazy it might work!



> 3. Never vent.



Thank goodness the folks that build water heaters disagree.. lol.  



> Follow those three rules and you'll be fine.



Well actually there are a few other rules I'd add to the list.  

1. Never buy electronics from a guy selling out of the trunk of his car.  
2. When your boss says, "We really want to know what you think", don't tell them what you really think
3. Never answer a woman when she asks, "Does this make me look fat?"
4. Never ask who would win in a battle between the Starship Enterprise and a Star Destroyer at a sci-fi convention
5. Never ask a question if you don't really want an honest answer.  Life would be so much simpler if everyone just followed this rule

Well, those are my top 5 at any rate.. lol


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## Steve5D (Jan 31, 2014)

AmberAtLoveAndInk said:


> Maybe get a few words of encouragement from pros with years of experience who have seen and heard it all, maybe even get a few tips on what I can do to make myself more marketable or improve.



More likely you were hoping to get your ego stroked.

That doesn't happen all too often 'round these parts...



> It's quite rude and unhelpful that so many of you just want to comment on the status of my skill level.



Well, see, here's the thing: You're "venting" about others getting into the business when you, yourself, are not ready to be in business. You need to nail it every single time. By your own admission, you don't do that. That's a recipe for professional disaster. Instead of worrying about what some ex-cheerleader is doing, you need to knuckle down and improve. It doesn't take a budget to improve. It takes time and dedication. Now, if you think that's "rude", then so be it; I don't really care. But you say you want a few "tips", so there you go. Stop whining about other people and concentrate on what _you're_ doing...



> What it boils down to is that I am not pissed about someone new breaking into this industry, I'm pissed because I know these people personally and the only artistic skill these women ever had in highschool was being able to shake their pom-poms to the "GO DEVILS" school cheer at the same time. Thanks again. Over & out.



Again, your energies are misplaced. Worrying about someone who you think has no talent will get you nowhere. It's not productive, and it will rob you of time you could be spending improving yourself.

Now, if you still feel the need to runaway because we've pissed in your Wheaties, go ahead. But I'm having a difficult time trying to understand why you would do that. You've gotten sound advice here. It just happens to be advice that you didn't expect. Instead of tucking your tail between your legs and running away, maybe you should try to follow some of the advice you've gotten here and see what happens...


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## Steve5D (Jan 31, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> 3. Never answer a woman when she asks, "Does this make me look fat?"



My ex-wife once asked me "Do these jeans make my ass look fat?"

I answered "No, your ass makes your ass look fat".

Like I said, that'd be my _ex_-wife...


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## astroNikon (Jan 31, 2014)

gsgary said:


> This thread will be closed before page 5



hmmmm ...


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## robbins.photo (Jan 31, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > 3. Never answer a woman when she asks, "Does this make me look fat?"
> ...



See now I might be forced to recant my previous statement where I described us as not being a huggy bunch- rotfl

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## astroNikon (Jan 31, 2014)

here's a recommendation.

Contact one of the Mentors here .. and use them to help you improve your studio photography.

I'm doing that ... though I stink right now as I keep forgetting things while taking shots.  Now I have a checklist which will help me remember the simple steps for portraiture and OCF so hopefully I'll be able to send him something to review  LOL


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 31, 2014)

Photography has become like watching Jackass, the disclaimer saying "these are professionals, don't attempt this at home" So what do people do? they ignore the disclaimer and attempt some stunt and end up breaking their necks, only to find it posted on YouTube.  Everyone with a camera wants to be one of these professionals and try it, but most simply fail.  Regardless of what they think it still takes skill and experience to attempt a stunt and not break your neck trying.

So to all the camera owners out there that want to play professional, try a couple of tough stunts and after you get kicked in the groin enough times you'll realize that there is more to it than just owning a camera and a business card.


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > 3. Never answer a woman when she asks, "Does this make me look fat?"
> ...


Oh Steve! You are one of those people we love to hate, but hate to love!


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## DiskoJoe (Jan 31, 2014)

kathyt said:


> minicoop1985 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, I think I found a niche-DIVORCE PHOTOS! Divorces are horrible, so taking horrible photos would fit! YES!
> ...



What did you TAP?


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

DiskoJoe said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > minicoop1985 said:
> ...


I am trying to keep this forum clean diskoJoe. I cannot disclose this top secret information.


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## DiskoJoe (Jan 31, 2014)

kathyt said:


> DiskoJoe said:
> 
> 
> > kathyt said:
> ...



Thats not what they were referring to. This type of dirty is acceptable as long as accompanied by pics.


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

DiskoJoe said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > DiskoJoe said:
> ...


I can't accommodate this time. Sorry. I have scored the greatest guy in the world, and I would like to keep him. I have to clean up my talk around this joint!


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## robbins.photo (Jan 31, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...



Confessions of a former cheerleader, next on Fox.. lol


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## astroNikon (Jan 31, 2014)

this thread is officially derailed ...


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## DiskoJoe (Jan 31, 2014)

kathyt said:


> DiskoJoe said:
> 
> 
> > kathyt said:
> ...



Maybe he's into that sort of thing. You should ask, lol


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> this thread is officially derailed ...


It derailed a long time ago.


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## DiskoJoe (Jan 31, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> this thread is officially derailed ...



Thank GOD!


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2014)

DiskoJoe said:


> kathyt said:
> 
> 
> > DiskoJoe said:
> ...


Hell no, I am not sharing him! He better not say he will share me either!


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## TJNY (Jan 31, 2014)

I am venting.....thanks to the chili I ate for lunch!


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## table1349 (Jan 31, 2014)

manaheim said:


> AmberAtLoveAndInk said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the responses? I'm not going to sit around all day defending myself to a point that doesn't get past anyone's ears (or eyes rather) so I'll leave on this note..
> ...


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## tirediron (Jan 31, 2014)

I think we've realized all of the potential value of this thread we can.


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