# Need some business pointers please!



## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

I'm new here, so hi! My name is Emily and I have been taking photos for about 7 years. I now have a smallish (but growing) photography business but have a few issues here and there that I would like some insight about. I am mainly self taught, but I do pretty well I think with the type of clients and photography that I do.

Some basics - I shoot with a Canon Mark III camera either a 85mm, 50mm or 70-200s (all 1.2 aperture) depending on what I am taking photos of. I shoot in raw and edit primarily with Lightroom, but use Photoshop as needed. I mainly shoot engagements, families, newborns, holidays, and Seniors. 

Here are some issues I have been struggling with (mostly with clients and PR)

1. When I am out with a client and shooting, some clients can "take control" of the photo shoot with their ideas. Sometimes, they bring awesome props and have great ideas and the shoot goes great! Other times, the client will have some ideas that are a bit cheesy and don't understand lighting/backgrounds and how I use my lenses and what they can pick up and see. Sometimes, when those sessions are over and I look at the photos - most of their creative ideas are not something I want to put my name on, edit and publish. This only happens once in a while, but I had a shoot a few days ago and just sat down to edit their pictures and they are "meh" at best (in my opinion). For example, the client wanted to take a picture of each of her grandchildren on top of a ladder at a specific spot with some fall leaves in the background. I try to steer clients toward a better pose, and that usually works, but you get those that are super insistent! I took the photo and have a very back-lit up the nose shot of each kid looking down on me. Not great. Another photo from the day that the entire family insisted on was one of them walking down the road with the grandparents in front, kids behind, and grandkids again behind them. Shooting with my 85mm, even with a high aperture, gave a lot of blur on either the subjects in the back or front and the picture isn't good. But, they specifically requested a copy of both of these... which leads me to....

2. When a client receives their photos and request additional edits, do you give them to them or charge? In my business, I charge by the number of edits a client wants (because that is were a bulk of my time is spent) and they can either purchase 10, 20 or 30 and then order prints from there through my site (all handled by a third party) or download them digitally. Sometimes, a client will get their 10 edits and then ask "Well, what about this pose? I really wanted one of XXX pose!" If those poses aren't up to the standards of your usual work, what do you do? Give them that photo anyway, or just tell them no, explaining it wasn't good? I don't have time to sit down with the client and let them choose their photos themselves, and my prices reflect that. Suggestions?

That's my only two issues I've been running into recently, and any insight on a professional and nice way to handle those situations would be great! I'm sure there is an easy fix, but above all - I want my client to get the photos they want! No one likes to pay for a service and then be told "NO" but some things I do want to say NO about!!! 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!


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## robbins.photo (Dec 17, 2013)

Ok, well not a professional photographer myself so take this for what it's worth.  When the client wants some cheesy shots that your pretty sure won't work, if it were me I'd go ahead and agree to take the cheesy shots but in return they also have to take some shots doing it your way.  Take both - that way you can show them both and let them make the final decision.  But you know what, if in the end the client wants to order cheese I say sell them cheese.  It's their money, so I figure if that's what floats their boat I'm ok with that.   What the final shots look like won't impact your business nearly as much as a happy or unhappy client will.  A happy client will refer others to you and come back again, and unhappy client will tell their friends, "Oh don't hire them, they are difficult to work with"

Again, don't make my living as a photographer, but that would be my recommendation.


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2013)

Rule #1:  NO ONE sees the bad ones.

Rule #2:  I decide what's good and bad.

"Creative" clients can be challenge.  If I have someone who has a specific idea in mind or wants to use a specific prop that I don't think will work very well, I explain to them why I don't think it will work, and if they still insist, I tell them I will shoot it, but I can't promise that it will produce an image which meets my quality standard.


I include 'X' minimum images per session (the number increases with the price point).  After I shoot the session, I import the whole session into Lightroom, bin the dogs, and flad those that I am happy with, and create a client gallery.  I e-mail them with a link and tell them to pick however many files their session fee entitles them too.  If they want extras, it's $35/file.  I normally add at least one extra as a 'bonus' (I'm a firm believer in under-promise and over-deliver).


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## Light Guru (Dec 17, 2013)

hunter102 said:


> When I am out with a client and shooting, some clients can "take control" of the photo shoot with their ideas. Sometimes, they bring awesome props and have great ideas and the shoot goes great! Other times, the client will have some ideas that are a bit cheesy and don't understand lighting/backgrounds and how I use my lenses and what they can pick up and see.



This should all be discussed with the client before you go "out" shooting. 



hunter102 said:


> When a client receives their photos and request additional edits, do you give them to them or charge?



This needs to be spelled out in your contract with the client. You do have a contract that you use right?  

I would specify a set number of images to be delivered in your contract and x number of re edits. Then put in the contract that additional re edits will be x amount.


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

Can you explain how the Lightroom gallery works? I have wanted to find a time and cost effective way to let the clients pick their unedited images for me to edit, but haven't found anything that works for everyone yet. I live in a very small town and GOOD internet access is hard to come by (for me as well as some clients!) And, I don't want to wait 3-4 days or a week for my clients to pick their images before I start to edit them. Right now, I have about a week turn around time on my edits and I get A LOT of clients because I turn out edits fast and offer overnight editing (for an extra charge.)


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2013)

Light Guru said:


> hunter102 said:
> 
> 
> > When I am out with a client and shooting, some clients can "take control" of the photo shoot with their ideas. Sometimes, they bring awesome props and have great ideas and the shoot goes great! Other times, the client will have some ideas that are a bit cheesy and don't understand lighting/backgrounds and how I use my lenses and what they can pick up and see.
> ...


Thanks for adding the blindingly obvious which I completely over-looked! :er:


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

Yes, I do have a contract but it says that an extra 10 edits is XX  amount, but nothing about a single edit. I guess I should add that in? Should I apply a price point to an extra or two, or just let it be free within a certain time period (say, one week?) It also states in the contract that if they want a certain shot, they should let that known DURING the session - but sometimes those shots don't turn out and I am torn about including them.


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2013)

hunter102 said:


> Can you explain how the Lightroom gallery works? I have wanted to find a time and cost effective way to let the clients pick their unedited images for me to edit, but haven't found anything that works for everyone yet. I live in a very small town and GOOD internet access is hard to come by (for me as well as some clients!) And, I don't want to wait 3-4 days or a week for my clients to pick their images before I start to edit them. Right now, I have about a week turn around time on my edits and I get A LOT of clients because I turn out edits fast and offer overnight editing (for an extra charge.)


The web module in Lightroom allows you to create custom image galleries and even has a built-in FTP client to upload them, but you should NEVER publish completely unprocessed images.  Everything that goes in one of my client galleries is WB corrected, leveled, and checked for exposure.  However, if you have poor Internet access, that's actually a HUGE bonus, that's the perfect excuse to have everything on your laptop or tablet and take it to the client's home; in-home proofing almost always generates increased sales because you can talk each image up!


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2013)

hunter102 said:


> Yes, I do have a contract but it says that an extra 10 edits is XX  amount, but nothing about a single edit. I guess I should add that in?


YES!!!!  Price PER image, not in bulk.  Change that ASAP!  It's MUCH easier to sell ten $1.00 items over a two hour proofing session than one $10.00 item!



hunter102 said:


> It also states in the contract that if they want a certain shot, they should let that known DURING the session - but sometimes those shots don't turn out and I am torn about including them.


Change this too.  Special requests must be discussed beforehand!!!  That's what your pre-session client meeting is for.  NEVER go in cold!  This is also the time to explain why an image may or may not work, and while you can't promise anything, you will do your best.


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

I don't think that would really work for me - I only charge by the edits and then they can order prints. For example...

10 edits are $XXX
20 edits are $XXX
30 edits are $XXX

The client gets an hour session included in the edits package they choose. 

Right now, my sale goes like this - Client books an hour session and lets me know how many edits they want. I take the photos and pick (myself) the best 10, 20 or 30 from that session and upload the edited images to an online album. They can then order prints or digital downloads (full resolution.) I work a part time (30 hours per week) real job and live in a SUPER rural place, so some of my clients drive from 30 minutes to an hour away. My prices are pretty low considering the economy here, so if I were to drive after the session to clients houses I would probably need to charge a lot more, and my turnaround time would increase since I don't really have full days to be out and about driving to clients homes.

I hope, one day, when I graduate college, this will be my full time job and I can begin to do something like that!

My pre-session client meetings are usually the day of the session - like I said, this isn't my full time job but one day I hope to have enough time to devote to photography to "do it right!" But, I will make sure to start discussing that beforehand!


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2013)

hunter102 said:


> I don't think that would really work for me - I only charge by the edits and then they can order prints. For example...
> 
> 10 edits are $XXX
> 20 edits are $XXX
> ...


Start off the way you intend to continue unless you plan on moving.  You can make it work, but it will take a little more time.  Client's too far away to drive to a meeting?  Try that little gizmo that Mr. Bell invented, it still works very well!


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

Haha yes we do meetings over the phone but can't proof photos! I may try to lightroom gallery on a few guinea pigs!! 

What do you do about the creative and controlling clients? Just address that in the meeting?


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## kathyt (Dec 17, 2013)

This can and should be solved by your consultation, and taking control of the photo shoot. I have never had this problem, because they know what to expect when they are getting a photo session with me. I rarely do props, (I am talking pretty much never,) I shoot candidly, and they MUST, MUST, MUST look through my style of shooting and work BEFORE scheduling with me. I explain very clearly how the session with go, what I will/WON'T be doing, and what I expect of them. I do just enough posing to get some uniformity, but the rest is fair game. Take charge of your business, and set the bar high. Once you do that then I promise you will set yourself apart. This is of coarse if you have all your other ducks in a row.  Good luck.


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks! I don't like too many props either, and try to stray away from them. I will try and post some of my recent stuff below.


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## hunter102 (Dec 17, 2013)

Here is some of my recent stuff - I in no way claim to be a professional and I know I need to learn A LOT but I see improvements each year looking back at my photos so I am happy! 


























These are just from the past weekend but I have more I can post if anyone would like to take a look!


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## shovenose (Dec 17, 2013)

You are VERY good. At least I think so. You'll have no problem doing well in this path.
Now, I have the same problem with web design clients - I habitually undercharge.
That creates poor expectations and the client will think that you are lousy because you're cheap.

Also, people you know (friends and coworkers) are always the worst clients. I don't mean that offensively, but it's unfortunately true. And don't give them a deal/discount.

Lastly, don't feel like you are nickel-and-diming them if you charge them extra for extras. Nobody works for free and the client will understand. If they don't, perhaps it's time to fire the client?


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## hunter102 (Dec 18, 2013)

shovenose said:


> You are VERY good. At least I think so. You'll have no problem doing well in this path.
> Now, I have the same problem with web design clients - I habitually undercharge.
> That creates poor expectations and the client will think that you are lousy because you're cheap.
> 
> ...



I always charge relatives and friends! I charge them the same amount as everyone else, but usually throw in some extra photos or something. I've only had a problem with one relative not paying - and she finally paid.


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## ronlane (Dec 18, 2013)

tirediron said:


> flag those that I am happy with, and create a client gallery.  I e-mail them with a link and tell them to pick however many files their session fee entitles them too.



John, You use LR4 for this, but where is the gallery located? Is it kept in Adobe cc or your website? Trying to learn more about this and the LR portion.


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## tirediron (Dec 18, 2013)

ronlane said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > flag those that I am happy with, and create a client gallery. I e-mail them with a link and tell them to pick however many files their session fee entitles them too.
> ...


I'm actually using 5 now, but that module was essentially unchanged.  It will allow you to create the gallery wherever you like; I save it to my computer and then upload it using a separate FTP cient to my website (just because that's the way I do it, not because there's any good reason, you can use LRs built-in FTP to transfer it).  Creative Cloud doesn't enter in to the equation anywhere.


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## ronlane (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks John. That clears it up a little more for me. Still trying to wrap my brain around that part of things.


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## vintagesnaps (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm not sure why they're getting a choice of edits, I would think it would be better to provide the best of each pose. I think it takes being able to provide good quality photos on a consistent basis to be able to charge money for your work. 

To me it looks like you're engaging your subjects well and getting some nice compositions; it looks like the quality varies (which maybe is why you're getting people wanting more edits). One looks like it's not real sharp, in the one with the fence the color looks off, another looks like it might have been underexposed - you might need to make sure you're getting a proper exposure every time, that you're nailing your focus, etc. etc. (unless what I'm seeing is due to editing). Maybe you need to continue to get more practice and skill development to help you in doing this as a business.


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## hunter102 (Dec 18, 2013)

The one with the fence has a filter applied to make it look off-color, so it's supposed to look like that. 

I think  the quality varies because some of these have been coverted down in size so I can keep them on my computer and not my hard drive full of RAW files, for easy sharing like this, and some are still RAW. Also, I don't think Photobucket uploads full size.


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## KmH (Dec 18, 2013)

> I only charge by the edits and then they can order prints. For example..._
> 10 edits are $XXX_
> _20 edits are $XXX_
> _30 edits are $XXX
> __The client gets an hour session included in the edits package they choose. _



Interesting concept.

What constitutes an edit?
In LR, at least to me, adjusting just 1 slider in one panel would be an edit.
I get the impression that when you say 'an edit' you mean a completely edited and finished photo?

How do your clients know at booking how many edits (or photos) they will want?
On other words, it seems what you're actually selling is a photo packages.
If you mean 10 fully edited and finished photos are $XXX, that make more sense.

From looking at the photos you have posted, IMO your use of light needs work.
Both the light quality and the light direction are making for less than quality photographs.
In many of the photos the people have dark eye sockets (raccoon eyes) that is less than flattering to them - the family, the girl wearing the hat, the 2nd shot of the couple.
Fill lighting, from reflectors or other supplemental lighting like a couple 3 or more flash units with light modifiers would fill the dark eye sockets and add 'pop' or a lighting ratio separation of the people from what's behind them.

Strobist: Lighting 101
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

Are the photos you posted examples of what you provide as fully edited and finished photographs ready for delivery to a client?


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## hunter102 (Dec 18, 2013)

The way you explained it (as a package) is the way I sell them! And edit is a completely finished and fully edited photo! 

I do struggle with lighting as a lot of the places I take photos are outdoors without electricity. Do you think reflectors would improve the lighting, even in low light conditions outdoors? Do you have an recommendations of which to purchase and how to position or hold them?


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## tirediron (Dec 18, 2013)

hunter102 said:


> ...Do you think reflectors would improve the lighting, even in low light conditions outdoors? Do you have an recommendations of which to purchase and *how to position or hold them*?


Reflectors re-direct light; they do NOT add or increase light.  If you're doing a lot of location shooting, then you need a couple of battery-powered inverters for your lights.  I like Innovatronix products, but there are lots of other options as well.  To be blunt, asking about how to position reflectors is NOT something I would expect from someone who is charging for their services.


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## hunter102 (Dec 18, 2013)

Well like I said, I'm mainly self taught and have learned along the way mostly from other photographers. IVE never seen any of them use reflectors. I dont charge a lot, at all, and think my prices match up to what I offer as far as equipment and quality goes. I know if I was in Houston or a larger town, I would make it but in my sml rural town I do well. 

I will look into some inverters and light products. 

I just dont see how that would work when I'm changing locations and back grounds every 5-10 minutes :/


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 18, 2013)

Me personally not a fan of how your pricing. I don't think I would want to get into a they pay for how many edits they want. what happens when you get someone who says edit them all? I edit up what I feel are the best photos of the session and that is what they choose from. This way when I'm done editing I'm done. I'm not going back because they wanted 5 more or 7 more. If you have 5 shoots on a Sunday like you mentioned in another post and then everyone chooses overnight delivery of 30+ images each that could be hard to manage. I have only one client ask me about a pose and I just tell them that I went thru the bunch and picked the best of the best. If they push you can tell them that it didn't come out very flattering. Assert yourself as the expert. Work with them during the shoot as your posing them. explain to them what will make them look better so they know you are getting them to look there best. If they are pushing you around as to what to do it may mean they don't have confidence in your ability so you have to present yourself in a way that shows you are.



Lights and light modifiers are something you need to learn and should learn so you can give your clients the best image. It's not much work lugging a single flash on a stand with umbrella. And once you get used to it and see how it will light up someone's eyes you may find yourself using it more and more. If you have a big day lined up you could look into an assistant, I have had a couple people come to me wanting to assist me for free just to learn and gain experience from. You have the internet there are hundreds of videos online that can give you the basics and beyond of using strobes, or really about anything photography related. You should never stop learning. Keith (KmH) already mentioned the strobist, a good starting point for using flash. I know a lot of people claim the whole "natural light" photographers but I feel if your in business as a professional photographer you should know how to work in the best conditions as well as the worst and for me a flash is a necessity to be able to work in all conditions.


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## kathyt (Dec 18, 2013)

I don't think the clients need to know anything about the word "editing" while presenting them with pricing and their final images. I think you need to show, sell, and advertise your best work. YOU control the gallery presented, and not the other way around. If they ask for a black and white...no problem, but that is a different story. You are going to go back and forth with your clients a hundred times, and waste tons of time in the process with the business model you have set up. Simple=Sales.


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