# Struggling to keep Focus in AFC



## psran (Feb 3, 2014)

Off late I have been trying to use AFC 9 point Dynamic for moving subjects like Birds, Kids & Moving vehicles with my Nikon D7000. Problem is that while I am tracking the Object with Back-button presses, my camera suddenly decides to focus on something in Background or Foreground and almost all my pics come out of Focus

Is there a way to Lock focus in AFC mode and then camera keeps it Locked

I have tried this with Tamron 70-300 vc & Tamron 17-50,


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## table1349 (Feb 3, 2014)

Use one focus point.


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## SCraig (Feb 3, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Use one focus point.



^^ This.  Disable all that dynamic auto-3D stuff and use a single focus point.


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## psran (Feb 3, 2014)

SCraig said:


> ^^ This.  Disable all that dynamic auto-3D stuff and use a single focus point.





gryphonslair99 said:


> Use one focus point.



I tried to search for this 9 vs 1 point AFC a  few days back and consensus seemed to support 9 point because even if subject moved out of 1 Focus point, the adjoining 8 Focus points could keep it in Focus

Although I myself am feeling that this 9 point Focus might be what is confusing the camera

Will wait for some more views


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## psran (Feb 3, 2014)

Bump someone


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## Big Mike (Feb 4, 2014)

What focus mode are you using?  AF-S, AF-C or AF-A (if you have it)? 

I'm wondering about your technique because you said that "I am tracking the Object with Back-button presses".
If you are 'tracking' a subject, you should be holding/keeping the AF active by maintain a half press of the shutter release or holding your back button (if set to AF).  

When you are using any of the auto area modes (auto point selection) and you press and release the AF on button, the camera will cycle through different 'subjects'.  
The camera doesn't know what your subject it, so it has to guess by looking for brightness, contrast and distance (if it can get that info from the lens)....but it's still just a guess.  So they program the cameras so that you can make it guess again by releasing and activating the AF.  

So what you need to do is: when it does lock onto your subject, try to keep it activated and locked on your subject.

But I do agree with the other comments.  By using single point focus, you are taking the cameras 'guessing' out of the equation.


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## Derrel (Feb 4, 2014)

I would read the furnished manual and learn how to operate the camera's AF system in a more in-depth manner. Using a series of back-button presses for focus tracking makes no sense to me. Spend $39.99 and get a complete, thorough guide to how to actually utilize a modern AF system.

Complete Guide to the Nikon D7000


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## TheLost (Feb 4, 2014)

I think a few people are confused about what Dynamic focus does...  It's basically 'single point focus... with a brain'.   You select a single focus point , but while focus is on (half-press shutter or back-button focus is pressed) if the subject moves out of the focus point the camera will follow it.

.. and it works AMAZINGLY WELL.

That's why every guide to shooting action/sports/wildlife tells you to use it.

I would recommend the OP reads this...
http://www.pixelfinesse.com/_docs/D7000_AF_Explained.pdf

Another thing to think about is your lenses.  Tamron lenses are notoriously slow focusing.  It could be that your lenses cant keep up with the action.


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## Derrel (Feb 4, 2014)

TheLost said:


> I think a few people are confused about what Dynamic focus does...  It's basically 'single point focus... with a brain'.   You select a single focus point , but while focus is on (half-press shutter or back-button focus is pressed) if the subject moves out of the focus point the camera will follow it.
> 
> .. and it works AMAZINGLY WELL.
> 
> ...



Great post, TheLost. One that enlightens and provides information and understanding about how to LEVERAGE the gear, not just how to get by.

Not to stereotype, but the majority of Canon shooters in web forums typically recommend that people having any kind of AF issues ,"Just switch everything even remotely complicated or advanced to OFF, and set the camera up to use ONE, single AF point, smack dab in the center of the screen."

The same advice is given by a good number of Nikon shooters too. I kind of expect better answers. You know, ones that actually reflect how capable modern gear is, rather than reflect misunderstanding, fear, and luddite-like tendencies.

The equivalent advice in other areas would be to:

A) stick the flash in the hot-shoe and point it STRAIGHT ahead on full manual, and adjust the f/stop as needed.
B) Take every picture at f/5.6. No matter what. F/5.6 is all you need. Best aperture value EVER!
C) Shoot everything as a horizontal. Talls are for dopes.


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## psran (Feb 5, 2014)

Big Mike said:


> What focus mode are you using?  AF-S, AF-C or AF-A (if you have it)?  I'm wondering about your technique because you said that "I am tracking the Object with Back-button presses". If you are 'tracking' a subject, you should be holding/keeping the AF active by maintain a half press of the shutter release or holding your back button (if set to AF).  When you are using any of the auto area modes (auto point selection) and you press and release the AF on button, the camera will cycle through different 'subjects'. The camera doesn't know what your subject it, so it has to guess by looking for brightness, contrast and distance (if it can get that info from the lens)....but it's still just a guess.  So they program the cameras so that you can make it guess again by releasing and activating the AF.  So what you need to do is: when it does lock onto your subject, try to keep it activated and locked on your subject.  But I do agree with the other comments.  By using single point focus, you are taking the cameras 'guessing' out of the equation.



As I said previously, I am using AF-on with AF-C mode for focussing using 9 point Dynamic area. My problem is that while I am panning along the Moving object (e.g. a  flying bird), although I am keeping my focus locked in it but suddenly as I press the Shutter, the camera chooses something in the Background and result is Out of Focus pic


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## psran (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:


> I think a few people are confused about what Dynamic focus does...  It's basically 'single point focus... with a brain'.   You select a single focus point , but while focus is on (half-press shutter or back-button focus is pressed) if the subject moves out of the focus point the camera will follow it.  .. and it works AMAZINGLY WELL.  That's why every guide to shooting action/sports/wildlife tells you to use it.  I would recommend the OP reads this... http://www.pixelfinesse.com/_docs/D7000_AF_Explained.pdf  Another thing to think about is your lenses.  Tamron lenses are notoriously slow focusing.  It could be that your lenses cant keep up with the action.




I agree with your point here about Tamron's slow Auto- focussing but believe you me, it's faster and more accurate than Nikon 70-300 VR which I used for a few Days

I have read the Link you mentioned but problem is Camera ( my camera) doesn't do what it is supposed to do in that manual. Rather than the Neighbouring Focus points helping with Locked Focus, start to interfere and focus on something else

After the advice given by some people here, I am seeing that Camera is doing a much better job with Single point focus as AF system is not getting confused by other FPs


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

psran said:


> I agree with your point here about Tamron's slow Auto- focussing but believe you me, it's faster and more accurate than Nikon 70-300 VR which I used for a few Days
> 
> I have read the Link you mentioned but problem is Camera ( my camera) doesn't do what it is supposed to do in that manual. Rather than the Neighbouring Focus points helping with Locked Focus, start to interfere and focus on something else
> 
> After the advice given by some people here, I am seeing that Camera is doing a much better job with Single point focus as AF system is not getting confused by other FPs



Welp.. good luck. 

Few things to point out though..

1) The Nikon 70-300VR is one of Nikons fastest Auto focusing lenses.  It will hold its own with the Nikons 70-200 f/2.8 VR2 when it comes to speed.  Your Tamron is about as fast as Nikons consumer 55-300 lens.

2) I think you may still misunderstand how Dynamic focus works.. "_Rather than the Neighbouring Focus points helping with Locked Focus" _is wrong..  Dynamic focus uses the SINGLE point of focus to 'lock focus'.  The 'Dynamic' aspect only comes into play while you hold the button.

I have shot hundreds of sporting events using the D7000.  If you are using your camera correctly you should get more accurate AF with Dynamic then Single point focus.

I would suggest sending your camera back to Nikon to get checked out (or maybe borrow/rent a 2nd D7000 to see if you get the same results).


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

Are you repeatedly pressing the AF-On button or holding it down? It also sounds like you might not be keeping the subject steady enough in the viewfinder. Keep in mind that with *Dynamic Area* the AF system isn't going to attempt to track the subject like it will with *3D tracking* AF. It's only going to attempt to keep the subject in focus based on the focus point you select with help from information from surrounding focus points. The subject needs to remain relatively steady within the area of that original focus point.




TheLost said:


> I think a few people are confused about what  Dynamic focus does...  It's basically 'single point focus... with a  brain'.   You select a single focus point , but while focus is on  (half-press shutter or back-button focus is pressed) if the subject  moves out of the focus point the camera will follow it.


 
IMO this isn't worded correctly. What you're describing sounds more like 3D tracking. As I said Dynamic Area will not "follow" the subject from one focus point to another. It will only use the single focus point you select. It will use data from surrounding focus points to try and keep the subject in focus if the subject leaves the selected focus point for only a brief moment. If the subject leaves the selected focus point for more than that brief period of time (not sure if there is a set time or what that time would be) it will attempt to refocus on whatever now happens to be in the focus point you originally selected.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> As I said Dynamic Area *will not "follow" the subject* from one focus point to another.
> [..]
> It will use data from surrounding focus points to try and keep the subject in focus if the subject leaves the selected focus point for only a brief moment.


Um.. it does 'follow' the subject.. 



MGRPhoto said:


> If the subject leaves the selected focus point for more than that brief period of time (not sure if there is a set time or what that time would be) it will attempt to refocus on whatever now happens to be in the focus point you originally selected.



That's what i said.. Its like single point focus... with a brian.  If you have Dynamic 9 point selected.. it will only follow the target in those 9 points.  Dynamic 21 point increases the 'zone'..  Dynaimc 39 uses all the focus points (on the D7000).   

The time it stays 'locked on' is defined by the option "Focus Tracking with lock-on" (Menu option a3).  It lets you configure how long the subject can be 'lost' before it re-acquires a new target.  

In real world shooting.. 9 point focus with a short to normal (1 - 3) tracking time works best.  The more Dynamic points you have the more the camera can get confused.  

95% of my shooting is Sports/Action..  I have tens-of-thousands of pictures taken with the D7000 (and i'm catching up with the D7100).  I also have [who knows how many] pictures taken with older cameras that only had 'single point focus' (D70 & film bodies).  

Dynamic auto focus is the da-bomb (is that the words kids use now?)


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## Derrel (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:
			
		

> SNIP
> 
> *The time it stays 'locked on' is defined by the option "Focus Tracking with lock-on" (Menu option a3*).  It lets you configure how long the subject can be 'lost' before it re-acquires a new target.
> 
> ...



I was hoping you'd bring up the issue of "Lock-on" because it's IMHO, a badly-worded descriptor. Many people see the word "lock-on" and think, "Oh, I want that to be FAST, so it locks-on to targets quickly." *Errrrrrrrrr!* (buzzer sound, WRONG answer!!!) No, Lock-on set High or Fast means that the camera will SEEK OUT A NEW target very rapidly if confused, or new subject matter enters the field of view, such as when panning, or following a really,really erratic target. In my opinion, Lock-on is misunderstood by most people, who set it incorrectly because they think it means something ELSE.

My feeling (based on my own early blunders setting Lock-on to its Highest Speed Level on other bodies) was that I was shooting myself in the foot by MIS-understanding what Lock-on actually means.

Second thing, does your camera have a Focus/Release priority setting? ANd what is it set to for AF-C??? Is it set to Release priority, so that releasing the shutter is the higher priority? My feeling is that yes, it might very well be set to Release priority, which moves focus ascertainment wayyyy down the list.

I dunno... I think 9-point Dynamic AF is superb when it's coupled directly to the shutter release button. Forget back button focusing for follow-focus stuff...


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## astroNikon (Feb 5, 2014)

I'll add a bit.
When I first bought my d7000 and started using it for my kids sports I had all kinds of focusing problems.

Learning and practicing the focusing system on  just birds in the backyard really improved my knowledge of it.
Then learning the idiosyncrosies of the AF system on certain lenses, such as my 80-200/2.8 AF-D - this is the old screw drive type lenses, not the AF-S with a built in motor.

With the AF-D lenses I will keep pressing the Release half way as the action continues to keep focus.  If I waited too long, even though I would keep the object in the AF focusing area, when I pressed the release it would hunt before reacquiring the subject. (See TheLost info above too).

But over time I've really learned how to use the AF system for sports of wildlife birds or anything fast moving.  It will take time and practice.  Just sit on your porch and shoot birds flying around and learn each mode and option.

I also made sure my AF modes were set to "Release" vs "Focus" which meant you can take pictures OOF.  You just have to learn your camera and lens and not do that  lol


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > As I said Dynamic Area *will not "follow" the subject* from one focus point to another.
> ...



You should check your ego at the door and just admit that you're wrong because that is VERY misleading terminology and will most certainly confuse people who are trying to learn how to use the AF system and read your post. Saying Dynamic AF "follows" the subject is absolutely not a true statement. It does nothing of the sort. It does exactly what I described as backed up by Nikon's own documentation: Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital SLR Camera Basics | AF-Area Mode (Viewfinder Photography)
And copy/paste from the D3s manual: "If the subject briefly leaves the selected focus point, the camera will focus based on information from surrounding focus points."
The way you're describing it there is 0 difference between Dynamic AF and 3D tracking. Follow Subject = Tracking Subject = Subject moving from focus point to point. Dynamic AF will never move focus points.

When you say something like "follow the target in those 9 points" there is no way for someone to interpret that other than to imply that the 9 points can be used to focus on the subject. As in the subject leaving the selected focus point and the next focus point picks up and will now be the primary focus point. That is not the case. Only 1 point can be used to focus the subject and that point cannot move to another point.

Also you're saying that Focus tracking with lock-on effects Dynamic AF and that is ONLY true in the case of DISTANCE. It sets the interval for how long it waits to refocus based on the distance from the subject not whether it leaves the focus point or not.
Again quoted from the D3s manual: "Focus tracking with lock-on controls how the camera responds to abrupt changes in focus *distance*."


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> You should check your ego at the door and just admit that you're wrong because that is VERY misleading terminology and will most certainly confuse people who are trying to learn how to use the AF system and read your post. Saying Dynamic AF "follows" the subject is absolutely not a true statement. It does nothing of the sort. It does exactly what I described as backed up by Nikon's own documentation: Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital SLR Camera Basics | AF-Area Mode (Viewfinder Photography)
> And copy/paste from the D3s manual: "*If the subject briefly leaves the selected focus point, the camera will focus based on information from surrounding focus points.*"
> The way you're describing it there is 0 difference between Dynamic AF and 3D tracking. Follow Subject = Tracking Subject = Subject moving from focus point to point. Dynamic AF will never move focus points.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what your smoking... but Nikon's documentation backs up what i said.

If the target/subject leaves the selected focus point the camera will use the surrounding points (9/21/39 points depending on Dynamic mode) to adjust focus on the target..  basically FOLLOWING the the selected target on those 9/21/39 points.  Does the 'main focus point' move? No.. however the camera MAY use one of the 9/21/39 points if it thinks the target has left the original focus point.

Say your shooting a runner on a track.. Your camera is set to Dynamic 21 point focus..  If the runner falls right as you take the picture and he/she drops off your focus point the camera will 'DYNAMICALLY' select one of the 21 points it thinks the runner has moved to.  Essentially 'following' the runner in the 21 points while focus is engaged.  

If somebody runs through your field of view.. While you have AF engaged on your target the "Focus tracking lock-on" time will decide if it stays with your original runner or picks up the new runner.

*edit*.. hows this (taken from the link i posted to earlier):

_"[you] focus on the subject with the center point of the array and continue holding the Shutter Release Button in the half press position. While holding, any movement of the subject within the array is tracked dynamically, allowing any point _
_within the array to take over as the primary point of focus. As you follow the subject and attempt to keep the array on top of it, the array is acting as a buffer to compensate for any lead or lag that you may have in  __tracking."

_


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## Derrel (Feb 5, 2014)

It's weird...when I first saw the title of this post, "Struggling to keep Focus in AFC," I thought it might have been a post about AFC Champion Denver's horrific loss in the Super Bowl, and how their humiliating 43-8 loss to NFC Champion Seattle might affect this year's off-season...or the AFC's struggles, what with the way the Patriots crumbled so easily in the AFC divisional title game....


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > You should check your ego at the door and just admit that you're wrong because that is VERY misleading terminology and will most certainly confuse people who are trying to learn how to use the AF system and read your post. Saying Dynamic AF "follows" the subject is absolutely not a true statement. It does nothing of the sort. It does exactly what I described as backed up by Nikon's own documentation: Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital SLR Camera Basics | AF-Area Mode (Viewfinder Photography)
> ...



This is absolutely incorrect. Read the documentation. Dynamic AF will never select a different Auto-focus point. Absolutely never. This can't be more wrong and I'm not sure how to make you understand. You are literally saying that Dynamic AF and 3D tracking are exactly the same. And using the word tracked in the italicized portion of your posts is completely incorrect as well. Nikon intentionally avoids that word in all descriptions of Dynamic AF because that IS NOT what it is doing. I do however like the very last sentence describing Dynamic AF as a buffer. That it is. I'm surprised you can get some thing so incorrect and something correct describing the same thing one sentence after another. The italic part I put in bold is the definition of 3D tracking.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

Derrel said:


> It's weird...when I first saw the title of this post, "Struggling to keep Focus in AFC," I thought it might have been a post about AFC Champion Denver's horrific loss in the Super Bowl, and how their humiliating 43-8 loss to NFC Champion Seattle might affect this year's off-season...or the AFC's struggles, what with the way the Patriots crumbled so easily in the AFC divisional title game....



Crap.. Derrel.. now your telling me i'm wrong because i'm a Seahawk fan and don't like the Patriots?  I give up!!!


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## sk66 (Feb 5, 2014)

The problem is with the AF delay setting (menu item A3 on my D800). This determines how long the camera waits to refocus if the selected AF point falls on a "new subject". I.e. in AF-C dynamic with the center point selected: If the AF is tracking the subject onto other points because the active (selected) point is not on the subject the camera will refocus on the active (selected) point. With the delay set low it will essentially stop tracking as long as the active (selected) point is on something that can be focused on (i.e. it will track a bird in clear sky, but not w/ a BG of trees). Set very high, and it will refuse to refocus on something else for quite some time... this can be problematic if you miss the focus initially which requires releasing the focus and restarting it.

FWIW, newer Nikon's are NOT using only the active (selected) focus point in dynamic mode. They are using the selected point AND any of the points immediately surrounding it, whichever one has the best conditions for AF lock (contrast). I didn't notice the behavior on the D7000 (or D200/300/3/3s), but I don't have one to test. Both my D4 and D800 behave this way. I may have just failed to recognize it earlier, or it may be a recent change.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> TheLost said:
> 
> 
> > _"[you] focus on the subject with the center point of the array and continue holding the Shutter Release Button in the half press position. *While holding, any movement of the subject within the array is tracked dynamically, allowing any point *__*within the array to take over as the primary point of focus.* As you follow the subject and attempt to keep the array on top of it, the array is acting as a buffer to compensate for any lead or lag that you may have in  __tracking."
> ...



Wow..  Now who's ego is acting up?

3D tracking CHANGES the selected focus point as the target moves around the screen.  It uses a totally different predictive algorithm to track the position of the subject.  It also uses more data (color, light, distance, movement) to track the subject.

Why don't you translate this for us then..
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d4_tips/autofocus/


> *9, 21, and 51-point dynamic-area AF
> *The focus point is selected manually. The camera focuses on the subject in the selected focus point when autofocus is initiated, but if the subject later leaves the selected point for brief periods, the camera will focus based on information from surrounding points.



Sure sounds like it uses the surrounding AF points if the subject leaves the selected point... effectively 'switching/changing/moving' the point in which its using to focus 'for a brief period'.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

sk66 said:


> The problem is with the AF delay setting (menu item A3 on my D800). This determines how long the camera waits to refocus if the selected AF point falls on a "new subject". I.e. in AF-C dynamic with the center point selected: If the AF is tracking the subject onto other points because the active (selected) point is not on the subject the camera will refocus on the active (selected) point. With the delay set low it will essentially stop tracking as long as the active (selected) point is on something that can be focused on (i.e. it will track a bird in clear sky, but not w/ a BG of trees). Set very high, and it will refuse to refocus on something else for quite some time... this can be problematic if you miss the focus initially which requires releasing the focus and restarting it.
> 
> *FWIW, newer Nikon's are NOT using only the active (selected) focus point in dynamic mode*. They are using the selected point AND any of the points immediately surrounding it, whichever one has the best conditions for AF lock (contrast). I didn't notice the behavior on the D7000 (or D200/300/3/3s), but I don't have one to test. Both my D4 and D800 behave this way. I may have just failed to recognize it earlier, or it may be a recent change.



How can you make a statement like that when the manual for the camera says the exact opposite?



TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > TheLost said:
> ...



It has nothing to do with ego. It has to do with correcting misinformation to help people from being confused when they are trying to learn. Yes 3D tracking CHANGES the selected focus point. And you've said multiple times now that Dynamic AF CHANGES the selected focus point when it in fact does not. Example highlighted in red. sk66 just said the same thing. Which is wrong. Using data from a focus point and using a different focus point from the one manually selected to lock focus are not the same thing and Dynamic AF does not use a different focus point to lock focus.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

Definitions from Nikon:

*3D-tracking*
The initial focus point is selected manually. The camera uses color information to track subjects that leave the selected focus point and selects new focus points as required. 

*9, 21, and 51-point dynamic-area AF*
The focus point is selected manually. The camera focuses on the subject in the selected focus point when autofocus is initiated, but if the subject later leaves the selected point for brief periods, the camera will focus based on information from surrounding points.


Exactly what I've been saying. Exactly the opposite of what you guys have been saying.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> Exactly what I've been saying. Exactly the opposite of what you guys have been saying.



So how does Dynamic focus work?  What does "based on information from surrounding points" mean?  Explain it to me...


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## sk66 (Feb 5, 2014)

There are two primary differences between 3D and the other tracking modes.
In 3D it uses color information. And in 3D it does not revert to the initial AF point if the subject is lost...it instead tries to relocate the subject based on distance/color information using any of the AF points.
Oh, and a 3rd difference; 3D is slower...


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly what I've been saying. Exactly the opposite of what you guys have been saying.
> ...



It's using limited data from surrounding focus points to keep a "virtual" lock on the primary selected focus point so that the selected focus point can instantly resume when enough of the subject returns to the selected focus point. The surrounding focus points are essentially passing their data to the primary focus point so that the camera thinks the primary focus point is always in focus.

3D tracking on the other hand uses all available data on all points and moves the selected focus point at will. Since it's using so much more data it's also much slower and in my experience doesn't work anywhere near as well in real world usage.

Dynamic AF when used in conjunction with good hand holding/panning technique is instantaneous. With 3D tracking (even on the D3s/D4) there is noticeable lag and tendency to lose focus when the selected focus point moves to a new focus point.


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## sk66 (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> It's using limited data from surrounding focus points to keep a "virtual" lock on the primary selected focus point so that the selected focus point can instantly resume when enough of the subject returns to the selected focus point. The surrounding focus points are essentially passing their data to the primary focus point so that the camera thinks the primary focus point is always in focus.


I don't know if that's true, I've never seen it in writing and that's not the way it behaves. AF continues if the selected point is not on the subject when in a dynamic mode. If you're saying that's because the selected focus point is doing it based upon information passed to it...well, that's the same result as if the other point had directly caused the change.
It also seems like that would be a daft way to design the system... it adds another step which would slow the system with no benefit.

Sometimes it's not such a good idea to read a manual word for word and believe it means exactly what it says (seems to say).... especially if it's something translated from another language.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> It's using limited data from surrounding focus points to keep a "virtual" lock on the primary selected focus point so that the selected focus point can instantly resume when enough of the subject returns to the selected focus point. The surrounding focus points are essentially passing their data to the primary focus point so that the camera thinks the primary focus point is always in focus.



So what your saying is... It uses the other focus points if the target moves.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

sk66 said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > It's using limited data from surrounding focus points to keep a "virtual" lock on the primary selected focus point so that the selected focus point can instantly resume when enough of the subject returns to the selected focus point. The surrounding focus points are essentially passing their data to the primary focus point so that the camera thinks the primary focus point is always in focus.
> ...



You've seen it in writing from Nikon's own definition just a couple posts ago and that IS the way it behaves. If the subject leave the selected focus point for more than a second or so then it refocuses on the tree (or whatever) that is now where the subject used to be. If it was using the secondary focus point to focus... then it would just switch to the secondary focus point and there actually would be no difference between 3D tracking and Dynamic AF. When a subject leaves the selected focus point in 3D tracking it doesn't wait... it doesn't rely on any data from other focus points it just switches to the other focus point.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > It's using limited data from surrounding focus points to keep a "virtual" lock on the primary selected focus point so that the selected focus point can instantly resume when enough of the subject returns to the selected focus point. The surrounding focus points are essentially passing their data to the primary focus point so that the camera thinks the primary focus point is always in focus.
> ...



No actually that's not what I'm saying and I'm not quite sure why you're having such a hard time with this as it's a pretty simple concept. It's only using the data or information from the focus point, it isn't using the focus point itself.


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## sk66 (Feb 5, 2014)

I do a lot of BIF stuff. Often the birds are fast and small in the FOV. I am quite certain that AF continues while tracking. There is no delay when moving to another point (but the other points do not illuminate). That's what makes the dynamic modes as accurate/useful as they are. The way you're describing it is as a focus lock as long as the subject remains within an available AF point.
The time delay before it stops tracking/AF and starts over is set by the delay setting.

I described the only differences between 3D and the other tracking modes earlier.
3D uses color, does not revert to the starting point when AF is lost (so no delay setting), and it's slower.


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## TheLost (Feb 5, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> No actually that's not what I'm saying and I'm not quite sure why you're having such a hard time with this as it's a pretty simple concept. It's only using the data or information from the focus point, it isn't using the focus point itself.



sense of humor - definition of sense of humor by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Make sure you email all the D7000/D7100 book authors and correct them too


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## psran (Feb 5, 2014)

So I came here CONFUSED and ended up being MORE CONFUSED.

What's the Final Verdict on Dynamic AF now ?


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## sk66 (Feb 5, 2014)

Your problem with it picking up a new subject is the focus delay with lock setting. You need to set it higher.
If you have focus on the BB only then just release the button for focus lock.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 5, 2014)

psran said:


> So I came here CONFUSED and ended up being MORE CONFUSED.
> 
> What's the Final Verdict on Dynamic AF now ?




That's usually how it goes 

How confident are you on your hand holding technique? I would suggest practicing with just single point AF with no enhancements until you become extremely good at manually tracking your subject. Then use these enhancements as an aide. If you really think there may be some issue with the AF system itself you could always rent another body as already suggested. Just depends on if it's worth the ~$70+ to rent it for a few days.


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## psran (Feb 6, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> That's usually how it goes   How confident are you on your hand holding technique? I would suggest practicing with just single point AF with no enhancements until you become extremely good at manually tracking your subject. Then use these enhancements as an aide. If you really think there may be some issue with the AF system itself you could always rent another body as already suggested. Just depends on if it's worth the ~$70+ to rent it for a few days.



I have tried to do an Unscientific test for all the AF-C modes.

I set up my camera on Tripod and put a small high contrast Picture on the wall. I then set the AF-C to 1 point, 9 point Dynamic and 39 point 3D 


1. AFC single point results:- I Locked the Focus with Centre point and then Panned the Camera across slightly to the Left. The Camera didn't try to Track focus and there was no Red point which shows that subject was in Focus   

2 AFC 9 point Dynamic:- It showed somewhat better results when Subject was moved from Centre point. Atleast 5/10 pics had Red Dot but under the Adjacent Focus points, so it did track the subject half of times

3 AFC 3D :- Now this was a revalation to me. Once I had locked focus on the subject and moved my Camera any direction, 19/20 pics had the RED Dot exactly on the Subject whether it was at the Corner of Frame or center 

My Unscientific Test proves to me that with 1 Point AFC I will need a very solid technique but with 3D, once focus is locked. The Rest of job is done


P.S. :- I need to Add one more parameter to this test, a difficult background as would be the case when shooting real time and that would be pretty Definitive for me atleast


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## sk66 (Feb 6, 2014)

9 point means it's only using the central focus point and the 8 immediately around it. So anything ver far out of center will be lost.

More points means it can track further off center but also slows it down a bit with 51pt 3D being the slowest, but also requiring the least skill to keep the subject w/in the usable area.

I normally use 21pts. Fewer points w/ easier subjects...


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## psran (Feb 6, 2014)

sk66 said:


> 9 point means it's only using the central focus point and the 8 immediately around it. So anything ver far out of center will be lost.  More points means it can track further off center but also slows it down a bit with 51pt 3D being the slowest, but also requiring the least skill to keep the subject w/in the usable area.  I normally use 21pts. Fewer points w/ easier subjects...



1. I didn't take out subject Far-out when I used 9 Point Dynamic but only till sorrounding FPs, still half of pics were Out of Focus

2 I didn't find 39 point 3D slow in Adequate Light


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## SCraig (Feb 6, 2014)

psran said:


> So I came here CONFUSED and ended up being MORE CONFUSED.
> 
> What's the Final Verdict on Dynamic AF now ?


The final verdict?  TRY THINGS.  It isn't something that you set once and can never change again, try things and see what works FOR YOU.

I have.  I've tried that dynamic nonsense and will never, EVER go back to using it.  Regardless of all of the argument here in my PERSONAL opinion it is useless.  I have found that FOR WHAT I SHOOT it does not work and causes me to miss more shots than it ever helps with.  YOUR experience may be different but the only way to find out things is to try them YOURSELF and see what works FOR YOU.


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## sk66 (Feb 6, 2014)

SCraig said:


> The final verdict?  TRY THINGS.  It isn't something that you set once and can never change again, try things and see what works FOR YOU.


+1.
Every subject/situation may have different "ideal" settings. And if you don't need it, don't use it.
As I explained earlier. Using a dynamic mode the initial focus lock and subsequent tracking may not be on the selected focus point. In single point it will be.


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## coastalconn (Feb 6, 2014)

This thread made me think about a few things.  I have self admittedly said I do not like the AF system in the D7100 as much as the D300.  I had a revelation thanks to your arguments.  I had the D7100 set on "Low" AF Lock on..  I checked my menu settings on the D300 and it was set to high.  I went out with AF Lock set to high and 21 pt dynamic and Voila the D7100 tracked BIF just as well as the D300.  So my thoughts are if you acquire a subject with your selected focus point the "dynamic" points read info and keep the subject in focus. I think the key to AF lock on is it say "abrupt changes in focus distance"  my thought on this is the camera will keep the bird in focus even if it flies behind a tree.  I will have to do more testing, but the D7100 performed much better for me this morning then it has in the past.  With lock on set to low, I feel it was so sensitive it would detect the wings going up and when they went down the camera would instantly try to focus on what was behind it..  Hope that makes sense...


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 6, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> This thread made me think about a few things.  I have self admittedly said I do not like the AF system in the D7100 as much as the D300.  I had a revelation thanks to your arguments.  I had the D7100 set on "Low" AF Lock on..  I checked my menu settings on the D300 and it was set to high.  I went out with AF Lock set to high and 21 pt dynamic and Voila the D7100 tracked BIF just as well as the D300.  So my thoughts are if you acquire a subject with your selected focus point the "dynamic" points read info and keep the subject in focus. I think the key to AF lock on is it say "abrupt changes in focus distance"  my thought on this is the camera will keep the bird in focus even if it flies behind a tree.  I will have to do more testing, but the D7100 performed much better for me this morning then it has in the past.  With lock on set to low, I feel it was so sensitive it would detect the wings going up and when they went down the camera would instantly try to focus on what was behind it..  Hope that makes sense...




Good info. It was _your _thread I was trying to find earlier today! lol
I knew someone had mentioned that they still preferred the D300 AF.


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## TheLost (Feb 6, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> This thread made me think about a few things.  I have self admittedly said I do not like the AF system in the D7100 as much as the D300.  I had a revelation thanks to your arguments.  I had the D7100 set on "Low" AF Lock on..  I checked my menu settings on the D300 and it was set to high.  I went out with AF Lock set to high and 21 pt dynamic and Voila the D7100 tracked BIF just as well as the D300.  So my thoughts are if you acquire a subject with your selected focus point the "dynamic" points read info and keep the subject in focus. I think the key to AF lock on is it say "abrupt changes in focus distance"  my thought on this is the camera will keep the bird in focus even if it flies behind a tree.  I will have to do more testing, but the D7100 performed much better for me this morning then it has in the past.  With lock on set to low, I feel it was so sensitive it would detect the wings going up and when they went down the camera would instantly try to focus on what was behind it..  Hope that makes sense...



Having used the D300s for sports... I still stand by my older comments saying the D7100 AF is better.   But i hang out with a few people that think the opposite.  I think in the end we'll find out its basically the same AF hardware with updated firmware


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## sk66 (Feb 6, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> This thread made me think about a few things.


I change my focus delay setting more often than I change my mode/# of points... it's that significant...


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## coastalconn (Feb 6, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> Good info. It was _your _thread I was trying to find earlier today! lol
> I knew someone had mentioned that they still preferred the D300 AF.





TheLost said:


> Having used the D300s for sports... I still stand by my older comments saying the D7100 AF is better.   But i hang out with a few people that think the opposite.  I think in the end we'll find out its basically the same AF hardware with updated firmware


My backup lens is a 150-500 OS and one thing I know is legit is the center point working to F8 on the D7100.  At 500 it is F6.3 and in really lowlight (like inside just playing around) The D300 would not lock onto a target that the D7100 would(in normal light it is fine).  I think they are pretty much the same system with a little tweaking and they do perform slightly different for some reason.  Also I was very use to the D300 just locking on to a bird in flight, it just didn't let go.  Up until today when I changed the AF lock on setting, the D7100 would just loose focus for no reason.  I'm not even talking about a complicated background either.  A few days I had a Juvi eagle fly really close with nothing but blue sky behind it.  I only had a few shots out of 15 that were of acceptable sharpness.  Today I had a series of 15 that were all in focus...  so for whatever that is worth....



Juvenile Bald Eagle 3 by krisinct- Thanks for 1 Million + views!, on Flickr


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## SCraig (Feb 7, 2014)

psran said:


> Off late I have been trying to use AFC 9 point Dynamic for moving subjects like Birds, Kids & Moving vehicles with my Nikon D7000. Problem is that while I am tracking the Object with Back-button presses, my camera suddenly decides to focus on something in Background or Foreground and almost all my pics come out of Focus
> 
> Is there a way to Lock focus in AFC mode and then camera keeps it Locked
> 
> I have tried this with Tamron 70-300 vc & Tamron 17-50,


Something else to keep in mind is that regardless of the focus mode used, regardless of whether it is static or dynamic or single-point or continuous, no focus mode is going to help if the problem is not a focusing issue and in reality is motion blur.  The subject can NOT move in relation to the sensor while the shutter is open or you will get motion blur.  Many times this is mistaken for an out-of-focus condition but the two problems are not the same thing.

Motion blur is handled by using a faster shutter speed and/or panning with the subject so that it stays in the same place in relation to the sensor.  The first frequently takes a lot of light or a wide aperture so you can use a fast shutter speed, the second takes a lot of practice.  It is also easy to induce motion blur with poor panning technique which is why it takes practice.


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## coastalconn (Feb 9, 2014)

An interesting observation today.  I was shooting my D300 for the first time in months and I think the AF system smokes the D7100.  I'm starting to think my D7100 may be a dud.  On the subject of 9 pt AF dynamic, if you view pics in view nx2 the focus point does move from the center at least on my D300.  So the camera doesn't just use info, it actually shifts focus points if it thinks your subject has moved from the selected point.  Strange huh?


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 9, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> An interesting observation today.  I was shooting my D300 for the first time in months and I think the AF system smokes the D7100.  I'm starting to think my D7100 may be a dud.  On the subject of 9 pt AF dynamic, *if you view pics in view nx2 the focus point does move from the center at least on my D300*.  So the camera doesn't just use info, it actually shifts focus points if it thinks your subject has moved from the selected point.  Strange huh?



Mine doesn't. I've tested this with D300, D300s, D700, D800, D3s and D4. The focus point only shows as the one I've selected. It will only move when using 3D.


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## coastalconn (Feb 9, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> coastalconn said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting observation today.  I was shooting my D300 for the first time in months and I think the AF system smokes the D7100.  I'm starting to think my D7100 may be a dud.  On the subject of 9 pt AF dynamic, *if you view pics in view nx2 the focus point does move from the center at least on my D300*.  So the camera doesn't just use info, it actually shifts focus points if it thinks your subject has moved from the selected point.  Strange huh?
> ...


Pretty Bizarre, huh... here are 2 consecutive shots with focus point turned on..


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 9, 2014)

It almost looks like it missed focus and went back to center. Were you selected on center? All I can say is that I've reviewed over 100,000 shots from my D300s while using Dynamic AF and not once have I seen that behavior. I've shot no where near as many shots with the other cameras I listed since they were either borrowed or rented but I never saw that behavior on those. Only when using 3D. And as the manuals state that is what should happen. Do you have a copy of CaptureNX2? I'm wondering if it shows the same. I'm typically using CaptureNX2 not ViewNX.


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## coastalconn (Feb 9, 2014)

Yup center point af-c 9 pt dynamic.  I process in LR5 so I don't have capturenx2.  The focus point doesn't change in the viewfinder..  I went through some D7100 shots from today... I was shooting in 21 pt AF-C dynamic and for the most part it stays in the center, but I had an eagle in a tree pretty far away and the focus point moved 4 times according to viewnx2.  I always thought the same thing you did that it used data from the surrounding points, not that it actually switched to them as needed..  I know it switches in 3d mode because it dances all over the screen.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 9, 2014)

I'll have to check ViewNX and see if it shows up differently.


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## psran (Feb 21, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> This thread made me think about a few things.  I have self admittedly said I do not like the AF system in the D7100 as much as the D300.  I had a revelation thanks to your arguments.  I had the D7100 set on "Low" AF Lock on..  I checked my menu settings on the D300 and it was set to high.  I went out with AF Lock set to high and 21 pt dynamic and Voila the D7100 tracked BIF just as well as the D300.  So my thoughts are if you acquire a subject with your selected focus point the "dynamic" points read info and keep the subject in focus. I think the key to AF lock on is it say "abrupt changes in focus distance"  my thought on this is the camera will keep the bird in focus even if it flies behind a tree.  I will have to do more testing, but the D7100 performed much better for me this morning then it has in the past.  With lock on set to low, I feel it was so sensitive it would detect the wings going up and when they went down the camera would instantly try to focus on what was behind it..  Hope that makes sense...



Today I thought of going through this thread again as my issue with BIF was still not sorted and this post above is a Goldmine out of whole of thread.

AF- on setting i.e. A3 in custom settings menu is as important as the AF mode that we use. I dug a bit into this setting and discovered that with A3 set to OFF, AF becomes too sensitive and keeps on seeking new subjects but if it's set to NORMAL or LONG, the camera will still track the Bird continuously but (this part is very important) it would keep the Focus locked even if a Bird flies behind a tree or passes a Busy background for 1 to 2 secs and wouldn't choose another subject during that duration. 

Thanks a million Coastalconn for this post and I hope beginners like me find this post before giving up BIF


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## sk66 (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> Mine doesn't. I've tested this with D300, D300s, D700, D800, D3s and D4. The focus point only shows as the one I've selected. It will only move when using 3D.


It moves, it just doesn't show it moving in the viewfinder except in 3D... it's in the manual...


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## psran (Feb 21, 2014)

sk66 said:


> It moves, it just doesn't show it moving in the viewfinder except in 3D... it's in the manual...



Yes it does move and it shows in View NX2 but doesn't show in Viewfinder. Just makes me wonder, why the heck did Nikon make 3D tracking mode


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

psran said:


> sk66 said:
> 
> 
> > It moves, it just doesn't show it moving in the viewfinder except in 3D... it's in the manual...
> ...



Eeeexactly. If the focus point were actually moving and different focus points were being used to obtain all the data necessary then there would be absolutely no difference between AF Dynamic and 3D tracking. I checked 20 or so files with ViewNX and CaptureNX2 where AF Dynamic was used and not one of them had the focus point anywhere but where I manually selected. I ran a few shots with 3D tracking and as expected the focus point is all over the viewfinder and the resulting image in both ViewNX and CaptureNX2.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

sk66 said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Mine doesn't. I've tested this with D300, D300s, D700, D800, D3s and D4. The focus point only shows as the one I've selected. It will only move when using 3D.
> ...



Actually in the manual (every manual) it says explicitly that it doesn't move. I've already posted several Nikon references backing this up.


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## psran (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> Actually in the manual (every manual) it says explicitly that it doesn't move. I've already posted several Nikon references backing this up.



I don't know what the manual says but it uses a different AF POINT when final pic is clicked


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

psran said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Actually in the manual (every manual) it says explicitly that it doesn't move. I've already posted several Nikon references backing this up.
> ...



Not according to any data I've been able to produce. Every test I've conducted produces results as expected by the definitions from Nikon.


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## TheLost (Feb 21, 2014)

psran said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Actually in the manual (every manual) it says explicitly that it doesn't move. I've already posted several Nikon references backing this up.
> ...



Which is what i said all along... :meh:


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

TheLost said:


> psran said:
> 
> 
> > MGRPhoto said:
> ...



That's kind of a ridiculous statement though. "I DON'T CARE WHAT NIKON SAYS I KNOW WHAT THEIR CAMERA DOES BETTER THAN THEY DO!!!"

lol. Really?


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## psran (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> That's kind of a ridiculous statement though. "I DON'T CARE WHAT NIKON SAYS I KNOW WHAT THEIR CAMERA DOES BETTER THAN THEY DO!!!"
> 
> lol. Really?



Nikon are not saying anything wrong , it's about how people interpret it.

Anyways, I don't think I have anything more to gain out of this argument , I know what works for ME


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## TheLost (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> That's kind of a ridiculous statement though. "I DON'T CARE WHAT NIKON SAYS I KNOW WHAT THEIR CAMERA DOES BETTER THAN THEY DO!!!"
> 
> lol. Really?



Your right.. coastalconn, sk66, psran (the OP) and myself are just making it up as we go along.  

coastalconn posted pictures of viewnx2 with different focus points.. 
prsran says his viewnx2 is showing different focus points..
My viewnx2 shows diffrent points..

But because you think Nikon says it doesn't.... we must be wrong.


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## coastalconn (Feb 21, 2014)

Mgr, track a flying bird in 21 point af-c, handheld, and then check it in Nikon software.  Not sure if you are shooting on a pod....


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

coastalconn said:


> Mgr, track a flying bird in 21 point af-c, handheld, and then check it in Nikon software.  Not sure if you are shooting on a pod....



I have. This is essentially what I do on a daily basis. I have 1000's and 1000's of these types of burst sets. None that I have checked ever show any focus point other than the one manually selected.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > That's kind of a ridiculous statement though. "I DON'T CARE WHAT NIKON SAYS I KNOW WHAT THEIR CAMERA DOES BETTER THAN THEY DO!!!"
> ...



I don't _think _Nikon says different. I _know _Nikon says different. And no matter what I do and no matter what camera I use I cannot reproduce your claimed results unless I use 3D tracking. Are you making an argument that the documentation that has been linked in this thread does say that the focus point moves in AF Dynamic? Or that Nikon's documentation is wrong?


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## TheLost (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> coastalconn said:
> 
> 
> > Mgr, track a flying bird in 21 point af-c, handheld, and then check it in Nikon software.  Not sure if you are shooting on a pod....
> ...



Can i ask what camera your using?


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## TheLost (Feb 21, 2014)

MGRPhoto said:


> think [/I]Nikon says different. I _know _Nikon says different. And no matter what I do and no matter what camera I use I cannot reproduce your claimed results unless I use 3D tracking. Are you making an argument that the documentation that has been linked in this thread does say that the focus point moves in AF Dynamic? Or that Nikon's documentation is wrong?


I think your just confused about what we are saying..  

One last try:
The 'Focus Point' in the view finder NEVER MOVES..  but the camera will use ANOTHER FOCUS POINT if the subject moves within the dynamic 'array'.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > coastalconn said:
> ...



My primary is a D300s. I've confirmed the same behavior with quite a few Nikon DSLRs over the past couple years including the D3s and D4.


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## MGRPhoto (Feb 21, 2014)

TheLost said:


> MGRPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > I don't _think _Nikon says different. I _know _Nikon says different. And no matter what I do and no matter what camera I use I cannot reproduce your claimed results unless I use 3D tracking. Are you making an argument that the documentation that has been linked in this thread does say that the focus point moves in AF Dynamic? Or that Nikon's documentation is wrong?
> ...



As I mentioned I used ViewNX and CaptureNX2 to check as I believe this is the only validation you guys have used to make these claims? The focus point never moves in the resulting image nor does it move in the viewfinder. With 3D tracking it does. Every piece of documentation, training material and marketing material I've been able to find states this is the expected behavior.


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## sk66 (Feb 23, 2014)

I just use the image review on the back of my cameras with focus point highlight turned on.

Keep in mind that the longer you have the focus delay set for the longer it will wait to leave the selected point when focus is lost. If you have it set to the longest setting it may never move (if the AF is active for less than the delay time).


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## psran (Feb 24, 2014)

sk66 said:


> I just use the image review on the back of my cameras with focus point highlight turned on.
> 
> Keep in mind that the longer you have the focus delay set for the longer it will wait to leave the selected point when focus is lost. If you have it set to the longest setting it may never move (if the AF is active for less than the delay time).



In the longest setting of 5 in A3,  the delay is of 2 seconds and not forever


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## coastalconn (Feb 24, 2014)

If I loose focus, I just take my finger of the AF button and refocus..  I do that quite often, it is known as focus bumping and it overrides the delay...


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## sk66 (Feb 24, 2014)

psran said:


> sk66 said:
> 
> 
> > I just use the image review on the back of my cameras with focus point highlight turned on.
> ...


I probably stated that "poorly;" there is no delay for it "leaving" the selected point regardless of the setting... I should have said "return to the selected point when focus is lost." If focus isn't lost it's not going to "start over."

Camera dependent maybe...I just checked my D800 and it seems to be ~ 1 sec. when set to 5. But for a lot of what I shoot 1sec is forever...

And this function is fairly poorly "titled." It's really a "refocus delay" for when focus is lost. It's also active if you only have a single focus point enabled (i.e. non-dynamic mode) with AF-C.


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