# Which is the best image format to save



## PJcam (Jan 2, 2018)

I have just purchased a Canon Rebel T6 1300D

As default it is set to image quality JPG L

I have seen mentioned saving images in RAW format, the camera has quite a few choices

Which is best and why?
- JPG L
- RAW
- RAW L

Beginner to hobby, thanks in advance for your replies.


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## stk (Jan 2, 2018)

Use what suits you best.

RAW is not a picture, but rather all the information from the sensor. It will therefore require som post processing/RAW converting before you get your final image. In terms of quality and control this is the way to go. You can with this approach also correct minor mistakes in terms of white balance and exposure.

JPEG is a finished picture processed by the camera. You have some parameters you can set in camera prior to the shot (usually saturation, sharpness, contrast and so on). JPEG can also be processed later on, but you'll have a lot less room before you start to see the image quality degrading. JPEGs advantage is smaller file size and more pictures in a row before you fill up the cameras buffer.

My advice will be to go for RAW or RAW + JPEG. There is a steeper learning curve with RAW (but it is at the same time more forgiving) and in some cases more work, but if you only shoot JPEG there is no going back.


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## PJcam (Jan 2, 2018)

I need to know and find out more about RAW formats.

Can they be edited like a JPG image?


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## pendennis (Jan 2, 2018)

PJcam said:


> I need to know and find out more about RAW formats.
> 
> Can they be edited like a JPG image?



Yes.  And the saved file from the editor can be in any format the editor handles as output.  They can be JPEG, TIFF, etc. 

I prefer to save any image as the ultimate output format, and retain the raw file in its original state.   I back up the file from camera to desktop, then to an external hard drive and my web back up service.


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## PJcam (Jan 2, 2018)

I have Adobe Photoshop which accepts REW files but I have never used them, never had them. It is an older version of the software but supports RAW file format. Something else to test and play with I think.

Thank you


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## Braineack (Jan 2, 2018)

PJcam said:


> Can they be edited like a JPG image?


better than.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 2, 2018)

If you shoot Raw basically the camera is recording more information or data than a JPEG, because the JPEGS are automatically edited (to some extent). I find it better to edit starting from a Raw image than to try to further edit a JPEG. 

I too make a copy of the original Raw image and edit the copy - I save my original Raw image as-is (as a PSD, but I have a different camera than yours). Then I may save a copy as a JPEG, or decide if/how much I need to edit. But I save the original Raw image in case I need or want to go back and start over with the editing.

I'm also a longtime film photographer and I find that usually if I get a proper exposure, and frame and compose an image well, there won't be much else I'll need to do. 

There are times photographers may shoot JPEGs. I've done sports and often working photographers may use the JPEGs because the files are smaller and it may work better/faster or be required by a publication to submit their work in that format. Or someone may just shoot JPEGs if they're taking snapshots just for fun and don't expect to do anything else with the photos.


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## Designer (Jan 2, 2018)

PJcam said:


> I have just purchased a Canon Rebel T6 1300D
> 
> As default it is set to image quality JPG L
> 
> ...


The "L" in the file name indicates "large", which you should do anyway.  That simply means that the file size is as large as the camera can save.  It relates to how big the image is displayed, but also how much data is available for enlargements, for instance.  

The difference between JPG and Raw is the bit depth.  JPG is 8 and Raw is either 14 or 16.  It might not sound like a big difference, but it is.  

If you shoot and upload without any editing, you might as well save the JPG files, as they take up less memory space.  If, however, you wish to do extensive editing, then you want the Raw file for more data.  You can probably (depending on what camera) save both the Raw file and JPGs, although you might not actually need both types.  The JPG is available right away, and is the product you get from the image captured by the sensor after having been generated by the camera.  The camera engineers have set out the parameters for the image product in conjunction with the user-defined "mode" settings which will have some effect on the overall "look" of the finished image.  

If you get into extensive editing, you probably should start off with a Raw file, as there is much more data available to work with.  With that file type you can make very minute adjustments to the color, for instance, that is simply unavailable in the JPG files.


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## Ysarex (Jan 2, 2018)

PJcam said:


> I have just purchased a Canon Rebel T6 1300D
> 
> As default it is set to image quality JPG L
> 
> ...



Read this: class notes

Joe


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## PJcam (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks Ysarex, some useful information in this, I am working through it. What I have already learned and read in the last 4 days is making sense of what I am reading here, the shutter of my mind is opening daily. Reading, learning, playing are all important, experience can only come by doing these things, practising them and with time. 

Thanks Joe


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## KmH (Jan 3, 2018)

Photoshop includes 2 plug-ins called *Camera Raw* and *Bridge*. Camera Raw is also known as Adobe Camera Raw or ACR.
Adobe Photoshop Lightroom's *Develop* module is also Camera Raw.
With Adobe's Photography subscription Bridge is a separate download while Camera Raw loads right along with Ps.
The Digital Negative: Raw Image Processing in Lightroom, Camera Raw, and Photoshop (2nd Edition)

Note: Raw is not an acronym and isn't all caps, but is a noun and the R is capitalized.
JPEG is an acronym that stands for Joint Photographic Experts Group.
TIFF is an acronym that stands for Tagged Image File Format.
A Raw file isn't an image until it has been processed in a raw converter application. ACR is just one of many, many Raw converter apps.

Bridge is a file browser included and usable with most of Adobe's software. Lr doesn't have Bridge because Lr's primary function (Library module) is image file database management, a more complex tool than a file browser.
Both Bridge and Lr are Digital Asset Management (DAM) tools. DAM is a book length subject.
The DAM Book: Digital Asset Management for Photographers

Also: It isn't release yet but when it is I highly recommend getting Martin Evening's book _*Adobe Photoshop CC for Photographers - 2018 edition*_ - if you have Adobe's Photography subscription.
If you want to use Lr Classic CC get:
The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Classic CC Book: Plus an introduction to the new Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC across desktop, web, and mobile

*Image Files*

Understanding Bit Depth
Understanding Image Types: JPEG & TIFF
Understanding RAW Files: Why Should I Use RAW?
*Tones & Contrast*

Understanding Histograms, Part 1: Tones & Contrast
Understanding Histograms, Part 2: Luminosity & Color


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## Fstop- (Jan 3, 2018)

Personally I do RAW & JPEG, with my work flow I scan the JPEGs to see which shots I want to keep(I usually delete 70% of shots) then I use the RAW for adjustments before I bring them into PS. That's just me and my current work flow, the ability to scan tru the JPEGs is much faster then importing them into a catalog only to delete 70% of them.


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## PJcam (Jan 3, 2018)

Interesting Keith but, only parts sinking in at this stage.

I have changed my camera to Raw +L, I then just shop a general image of something near me to try see what is happening and try understand it more.

Checking my view finder in the camera I am presented with the image just taken, pulling up the file details it tells me it is a Raw +L file. So far so good. So I removed the card and plugged into the laptop, I could see 2 files, a name.cr2 file and a name.jpg file. Looking at properties of the files I see the *.cr2 is 23.1mb and the *.jpg is 5.84mb, I can see straight away the massive difference on file size and memory card space they take up! 

I then opened Canon Digital Photo Professional 4, again I can see the 2 files and the setting the files were taken at, not aware of the Raw format, other than having seen the file format name, and many others, I have always used JPG files and if I wanted better images I would use TIFF files. Having got this far, I decided to go a little further and downloaded RawTherapee 5.3 FREE software for *.Raw files. Now I can see 'some' of the benefits but, need to back off a little for a while I think, I need to get back to fully understanding the photographic triangle and get that clearly fixed in my brain. 

There is so much to learn and the grey matter in the brain doesn't take things in as fast as they used to, but thanks for the information, suggestions and help.


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## PJcam (Jan 3, 2018)

Fstop- said:


> Personally I do RAW & JPEG, with my work flow I scan the JPEGs to see which shots I want to keep(I usually delete 70% of shots) then I use the RAW for adjustments before I bring them into PS. That's just me and my current work flow, the ability to scan tru the JPEGs is much faster then importing them into a catalog only to delete 70% of them.



I am able to see the Raw +L images in the camera viewer same as I could the JPG ones, I can also delete them from the viewer in the same way I could the JPG files. Maybe it is just that my camera allows me to do this, I am not sure as it is all new to me, all I know is mine is only a entry level camera, or that is how it is classified for marketing. It must have worked as I purchased it.


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## KmH (Jan 3, 2018)

The camera cannot show a Raw file on the rear LCD.
DSLR cameras make a JPEG Basic (smallest JPEG file) to show on the rear LCD. That JPEG Basic image is embedded into the Raw file and is also used to show in other applications, like your computer's file browser.


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## Ysarex (Jan 3, 2018)

PJcam said:


> Interesting Keith but, only parts sinking in at this stage.
> 
> I have changed my camera to Raw +L, I then just shop a general image of something near me to try see what is happening and try understand it more.
> 
> Checking my view finder in the camera I am presented with the image just taken, pulling up the file details it tells me it is a Raw +L file. So far so good. So I removed the card and plugged into the laptop, I could see 2 files, a name.cr2 file and a name.jpg file. Looking at properties of the files I see the *.cr2 is 23.1mb and the *.jpg is 5.84mb, I can see straight away the massive difference on file size and memory card space they take up!



Your camera saves a 5184 x 3456 pixel image.
So first, 5184 x 3456 = 17,915,904 or rounded off 18 megabytes or an 18 megapixel camera.
In the raw format each pixel is assigned a bit depth of 14 -- 14 bits per pixel. That means we need more than 18 megabytes to store the raw file (8 bits in a byte). Allowing for the extra 6 bits 18 megabytes becomes 28 megabytes of required storage space. Fair to assume Canon applies some degree of lossless compression to reach the 23 megabyte file size.
An RGB photo from your camera in JPEG format will be limited to 8 bits and so 18 megabytes uncompressed. JPEG's compression algorithm is responsible for the dramatic reduction in storage size. Data compression relies on the removal of redundancy. To create redundancy in your photo JPEG lays an 8 x 8 pixel grid over your photo. Photo data is dense and so each 64 pixel grid cell will likely contain 64 unique pixels -- can't compress. JPEG's job then is to alter the pixels inside a grid cell so that only 60% or 50% or 40% or even 30% are unique and the file compresses.

With your camera set to Raw + L you're saving both files to the card with each photo you take.



PJcam said:


> I then opened Canon Digital Photo Professional 4, again I can see the 2 files and the setting the files were taken at, not aware of the Raw format, other than having seen the file format name, and many others, I have always used JPG files and if I wanted better images I would use TIFF files. Having got this far, I decided to go a little further and downloaded RawTherapee 5.3 FREE software for *.Raw files. Now I can see 'some' of the benefits but, need to back off a little for a while I think, I need to get back to fully understanding the photographic triangle and get that clearly fixed in my brain.



Careful with triangles. The "exposure triangle" as named is built on a false foundation. In the hands of youtubers and bloggers and facebookers it's amazing how that false assumption can be contorted into a confused labyrinth from which you may not escape.

Exposure is a well understood and long since well defined photographic concept. We define exposure as the amount of light per unit area reaching the film/sensor. It is a function of a) the brightness of the ambient light b) time -- the shutter speed and c) any attenuation of the light through the lens typically expressed as f/stop. Notice what is not included in that definition. The triangle slip-up comes from a colloquial redefinition of the term exposure into the implied term "good exposure" or "correct exposure" or the "exposure I like." On top of that is added an incorrect understanding of ISO where it is common to assume that ISO adjustments alter the light sensitivity of the sensor/camera.

The result of the above errors produces some specific confusion involving cause and effect. New photographers get the idea that high ISO values cause noise which is incorrect. High ISO values correlate with noise;  correlate and cause are two very different things. More seriously new photographers get the false idea that adjusting the three legs of the triangle (shutter, f/stop, ISO) can produce an exposure equivalence. In other words ISO 100, 1/250 sec and f/8 is the same exposure as ISO 800, 1/1000 sec and f/11 -- the action stopping power of the shutter is different and DOF is different but the exposures are otherwise equivalent -- they're not.



PJcam said:


> There is so much to learn and the grey matter in the brain doesn't take things in as fast as they used to, but thanks for the information, suggestions and help.



Take you're time -- it took me decades 

Joe


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## PJcam (Jan 3, 2018)

Ysarex said:


> With your camera set to Raw + L you're saving both files to the card with each photo you take.



Thanks Joe, a very detailed and clear message as always. The above also makes more sense now.

I am picking up on the points, the rest needs, time, time to play, time to learn, repeat. We can read every book in a library but it will not give us 'experience'. We need both like we need two hands.


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## PJcam (Jan 4, 2018)

Ysarex said:


> With your camera set to Raw + L you're saving both files to the card with each photo you take.



I can now see if I set at Raw +L the camera saved the 2 files, and if I change it to Raw it saves only the Raw file. 

Which is best, to just save the images as Raw files or to save both formats? 

I appreciate saving both formats uses more space, but putting memory space aside, what should I really save or what do I really need to save?


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## Ysarex (Jan 4, 2018)

PJcam said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > With your camera set to Raw + L you're saving both files to the card with each photo you take.
> ...



Kind of depends on if you have an immediate use for the JPEG. Even if you don't save the JPEG you still have it. So that we can preview our raw files the camera creates a JPEG (typically lower quality) and embeds that in the raw file. It's easy to extract: Instant JPEG from Raw so you can always get the JPEG later if you want to see if for some reason.

Folks who quickly use the JPEGs on social media are likely to save the camera JPEGs rather than wait until they get the raw file processed. People like me on the other hand don't bother since all I care about is the raw file.

If you decide to save the JPEG and hope to use it your behavior behind the camera is effected. The camera is equipped with a range of adjustments to tweak the JPEG output for better results under variable conditions. If you want the JPEG you'll want to look at those options; different profiles, contrast changes, white balance and so on. Shooting exclusively raw I ignore all that stuff. I don't even know what's available on my camera in that regard and couldn't care less as none of those settings have any effect on a raw file. So behind the camera I have less to worry about as my only concern is exposing the raw file. Flip side is I don't get an immediate photo that I can share and I'm committed to the processing work later.

And let's not forget that some photographers deliberately shoot JPEG as their target final image. This is especially the case for journalists and event photographers whose job requires immediate delivery of the photos. They may decide the raw files isn't worth saving.

Here's a little fly in the ointment that's commonly ignored by most folks: *BIG GRAIN OF SALT HERE:* When you save raw + JPEG you're typically producing sub-optimal raw files. It makes no sense at all to save the JPEGs if you're not going to expose to get a decent JPEG. If you do that then your raw file will commonly be a little underexposed. The sensor's highlight threshold is like a brick wall -- it hurts to run into it. So the camera engineers will design a little buffer into their systems such that a good-exposure JPEG is achieved from a raw file that is between 1/2 to one stop underexposed. Think if it as a safety buffer that keeps you from hitting that brick wall. It makes sense and considering the market for their cameras they're doing the right thing. But obsessive nut-jobs like me who decide they have to squeeze out every last little bit tend to work closer to the wall. As a result our JPEGs tend to be overexposed and unusable so not worth saving and yeah we hit the wall sometimes.

Joe


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## PJcam (Jan 5, 2018)

Ysarex said:


> Kind of depends on if you have an immediate use for the JPEG. Even if you don't save the JPEG you still have it. So that we can preview our raw files the camera creates a JPEG (typically lower quality) and embeds that in the raw file. It's easy to extract: Instant JPEG from Raw so you can always get the JPEG later if you want to see if for some reason.



I am never in a rush with files and prefer to edit on the laptop. I don't do social media.

I have downloaded and extracted the suggested program file, the conversion of a file from Raw to Jpg is so easy.
There is therefore no need to take up space on the memory card saving two formats in the camera.

Thank you Joe


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 5, 2018)

Joe's paragraph that starts 'Exposure is...' seems to be a good explanation of it. I agree about the youtubers, etc.; I've been a photographer forever (or so it seems) and I don't think I've seen a video yet that I'd recommend. If anything, it seems like people might do well to unlearn a lot of what they 'learned'! lol 

I think you might do well to save for now, because later you may want to come back and see what you did as you develop more understanding of photography. Then down the road you could clear out a lot that was practice that you don't need to save. 

Your explanation of what you did seems like you're getting the hang of it. Hope you keep enjoying photography.


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## PJcam (Jan 6, 2018)

vintagesnaps said:


> I think you might do well to save for now, because later you may want to come back and see what you did as you develop more understanding of photography. Then down the road you could clear out a lot that was practice that you don't need to save.
> 
> Your explanation of what you did seems like you're getting the hang of it. Hope you keep enjoying photography.



I totally agree with what you say, I have playing with Av, Tv and Manual modes mainly, setting the camera then tweaking aperture and shutter speeds, sometimes ISO, and saving to computer to view what I have done, these and more are saved in a learning folder, they will all be deleted. Same with learning the Raw and Raw +L from the camera, until I knew what I was doing I would shoot, transfer to laptop and suss them out, then again delete them.

I bit like starting a new job I guess, you makes notes in the early days, you will not need in days and weeks ahead. It helps speed up the learning curve. (for ma any way)

Reading brings increased knowledge 
Trying out what we read speeds learning 
Practice helps both   
Experience comes with reading, learning, practising, (repeat), in a word it comes in 'time'

Thanks for your comments vintagesnaps, long may we shoot, learn and enjoy our hobby.


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## Fstop- (Jan 6, 2018)

PJcam said:


> I am able to see the Raw +L images in the camera viewer same as I could the JPG ones, I can also delete them from the viewer in the same way I could the JPG files. Maybe it is just that my camera allows me to do this, I am not sure as it is all new to me, all I know is mine is only a entry level camera, or that is how it is classified for marketing. It must have worked as I purchased it.



I meant after I am done shooting when I transfer all the images to my PC, I can go tru the jpegs with a file browser and pick the ones I want to keep. This way I do not have to load them all into the catalog to view them, just the ones that make it to the second stage. 

I probably only keep 30%-20% of the images I shoot. My work flow is sift tru the dirt to find the stuff with gems in it. I do not want to spend much time on the dirt. Sifting tru jpegs is much faster.


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## PJcam (Jan 7, 2018)

20-30% to the second stage is good Fstop.

I have saved JG, Raw +L and Raw, I have now settled with Raw only but at least I have tried each to suss out the best for me. I have the Canon software, Digital Photo Profession but for Raw I now use, FastStone Image Viewer and RawTherapee, and Instant Jpg from Raw (the important one although they all have their uses) All Free software.

I don't have many images to sift through yet, that said, as I test the camera I do have stacks that I am experimenting with as I learn, these are batched in folders for easy deleting later. We have to have a system that works for us however we use our camera and images.

Thanks for your help.


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