# Einsteins?



## MLeeK

I know Mike said he has one... anyone else? 
I have seriously been thinking about adding a couple. I have a couple of older white lightning 5000's that have seen some better days. The enisteins have caught my eye since day one. 
So... those who have used them tell me about them. Pro's and con's? Is it a good value for the $ or would I be better off going with White Lighting again or something else? White Lightning just happens to be what I have and know-and only really by accident. I bought out a studio long ago and that's how I ended up with the WL brand. 
It's been fantastic to me. I do have a couple of Flashpoint's. I bought one of another photographer and I got one as a prize or something at an adorama seminar. I am impressed by them and I use them as my portables. Reasoning: if a drunk groomsmen or basketball or player takes one of them out? I am out *maybe* a couple hundred bucks.

I think my year end budget will allow me into 2 einstein units with speedrings for my softboxes, etc. along with the lens I want, etc. However if it's not worth it? there are other lenses I REALLY REALLY want... LOL!


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## shootermcgavin

If they are anything like their bagels I would buy a few and some cream cheese.


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## Patrice

shootermcgavin said:


> If they are anything like their bagels I would buy a few and some cream cheese.





?


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## Big Mike

You must have misread or misunderstood.  I have AB lights, not the Einstein.  (unless you mean another Mike :er: )

I don't know anyone who actually has one...nor have I looked into them since the first came out...after being promised for what, two years?


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## Mach0

I wouldn't be able to give you honest feed back but I know a buddy of mine loves his. I've seen some of his work and the lighting is awesome.


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## MLeeK

Big Mike said:


> You must have misread or misunderstood.  I have AB lights, not the Einstein.  (unless you mean another Mike :er: )
> 
> I don't know anyone who actually has one...nor have I looked into them since the first came out...after being promised for what, two years?



Well, crap. I misread another post because I thought you said you had one.


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## Big Mike

I mentioned it in the same post that I also mentioned having two B800s and two B400s.  

There are a few bigger/bussier forums that have plenty of members with real experience or knowledge of them.  Go check them out (but come right back here after)


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## MLeeK

I will. 
Everyone here is so opinionated I thought maybe I'd really get the good, bad and ugly! LOL! 

I am not ready to purchase until I do my taxes in January, so I have time...


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## Village Idiot

The first ones had problems with dying unexpectedly. I would hope that would have fixed that by now. That's P C Buff's business practice though, let the user beta test the product.


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## Derrel

They are really expensive in terms of the output you get for $500. What Buff calls a "640" would be like a "300 watt-second", or lower, power level in Speedotron...three, low-powered lights for $1,500??? zOMG...I cannot figure out why people buy into this monolight nonsense for studio work when pack-and-head systems offer so much more output for so,so much less money!!!

Buff does impressive marketing work on his company's products, I will hand it to him on that score. And when the stuff breaks, which seems like all the time, they replace it with another off-shore made, but partially-assembled-in-USA product.

To my way of thinking, monolights are a total waste of money on two levels: when you need ONE light with a LOT of power, monolights cost a fortune. And, when you need a few lights at LOW power, monolights are a huge,huge waste of money. For example, using 11.5 in ch reflectors, a 20 degree grid, and a snap-on mylar diffuser, one Speedotron flash head. like say a $75 used M-11 Brown Line head, will back-light or hair-light a group of people at 25 watt-seconds...you read that right, 25 watt-seconds...and the same effect could also be acheived by using a lower-cost MW3U or M90 flash head and grid, for around $35 to $55 for the flash head and tube, used on eBay...Orrrrrrrrr, a customer could pay $499 for an Eistein 640, only to dial the power output down to 1/8 power, and in the process, waste around $425 of his or her money on un-used potential.

Want a classic, 5-light portrait setup that delivers beautiful light? Einstein 640 x 5 = $2,499.75 just for the LIGHTS, without any modifiers or stands.

That is a HUGE amount of wasted money. "640" might as well be called "300". A used Speedtron 6-outlet 1201A pack is $250-$300. Just saw one this week for $225 buy-it-now. Top-quality 202VF heads are $200 each, and can handle up to 2,400 watt-seconds per flashtube (Buff would call that a 5,000-watt-second flash! lol).

Used 2400-series packs are $375 to $500 and have 6 outlets, in 3 power channnels...and at the output an Einstein 640 gives, they are barely working, and recycling in .5 seconds...

Village Idiot had a nice two-pack, 1205/4-outlet pack and 405/3-outlet pack +three 202VF flash head package for sale at I think $2,000 just this week...


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## Big Mike

If you are going to compare prices, wouldn't it be reasonable to also include prices for new pack & head systems and used monolights as well?  :er:


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## Derrel

Big Mike said:


> If you are going to compare prices, wouldn't it be reasonable to also include prices for new pack & head systems and used monolights as well?  :er:



Well, I think buying new lighting gear is stupid, especially if there are around 35 years' worth of working, professional-level Black Line packs and heads on the market, right now. And on eBay you can choose from 6 pages worth of Speedo gear every day. The Einstein has been made in very small amounts, and is for all intents, a consumer-level product, sold only by ONE, single vendor, with no network support, just Buff, in Florida. And there is virtually no used market for Einsteins...it has not developed yet...might not either....who knows...

Bought a used D402 Brown line pack from ebay for $49.95, not working. I shipped it to Speedotron Corporation, 310 South Racine, Chicago, with a letter inside and told them to make it work. ABout a week later, I got a call from a guy who said they needed $70 to completely re-build the capacitors, and it would cost $19.95 for Us Postal Shipping back to me. So, I was out 50 + 70 + 40 for shipping to and from Chicago. And I got what is basically a brand-new $389 pack for a total investment of $160.

As far as Speedotron flash heads...they are made of metal...they last 40 to 50 years. When they get dropped, they do not break. They might dent, but they do not stop working. Used M90 lights come up for $45 apiece occasionally, $50,$60 quite often...I have some made in the 1980's, 1990's, 2000's...there are literally three full decades' worth of "new-style Brown Line heads on the market...so buying "new" ones makes very little sense...we;'re dealing with a "lifetime build quality" product made with simple technology, versus a new product, the Einstein, that is three years late, didn't work right when it finally made it, and is made offshore and is designed to be swapped out when dropped...

Once a guy BUYS a lighting system, it is "used"; "New" lighting is for suckers, in my book. If a person needs lights, and buys Speedotron, they are buying lifetime-level lighting gear and letting some sucker take the depreciation factor, and getting the same stuff for 25% of retail cost--or less.

ebay: "Einstein, in Cameras and Photo", 5 items, NO LIGHTS though: Einstein | eBay

eBay: "Speedotron, in same category" 278 items, LOADs of items. Speedotron | eBay


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## Big Mike

Fair enough.  :salute:


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## MLeeK

I knew someone would have a good argument for/against them! 
So, Derrel... I have never looked at the speedtron stuff and I think I need an education... 
Can you break it all down in moron terms for me?
As in what all would I need? If I were to add 2 main units or if I were to go with a full 4 light setup... 

Is there a difference in triggering?


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## KmH

Speedotron Products


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## MLeeK

So, with the speedtron I am using a power pack always, right? And the power pack is what determines the output of the light?


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## Derrel

Yeah...the power pack has 3,4, or 6 outlets in Speedotron. MOST have 4 outlets; older, 1200, 2400,and 4800 watt-second packs have SIX outlets, in three different power channels, plus a "variator" or 1/3 stop click-stopped adjustment dial over a three f/stop range, basically.

Right now, today, the week before Christmas, there are four absolutely fantastic deals on some older Speedo gear. I prefer the 2403 or 2401 packs...six outlets, three channels, built like a battleship. There are two 2401 packs for $199 each, Buy It Now. And a 1201A for also the same price. All are 6-outlet packs. NEWER 1200- and 2400-packs are 4-outlets.

With a 2400 W-S pack, you can have six lights, all at 400 W-S. Or, one at 1200, and 3 at 400. Or three at 600 w-s, or 2 heads at 1200,whatever. HUNDREDS of combinations. The power packs use a combination of switches and the variator, to determine the light output combos. 56 to over 500 discrete power output levels and combos, depending on the pack in use. 

Black Line lighting units ALL use the Speedotron Universal Mount bayonet-mounting accessories. Brown Line has only ONE flash head that uses Universal Mount, and that is the M-11 or M-11 Q flash head. Brown Line power supplies are all 4-outlet,two channel, with much less adjustability,and have no click-stopped power dial-down.

Here is an article on Speedo gear that I wrote in May of 2008. Derrel's Photography Blog: My 99th Blog Post: Speedotron Overview 2008


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## MLeeK

I think I am getting it here.... but there are times I think I am getting it and I totally miss the bus too. So...

Where I am dialing my power on my monolights now the dial would be the equivalent of the variator to limit my output to less than what I have set thru the powerpack. For example if I had 4 units on a 1200WS pack set at 300WS each, I could reduce the output on each individual light using the variator? Correct? 

I am off to read your blog post now. 

Thank you!


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## Helen B

I feel so depressed. None of my Speedotrons have variators.


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## Alpha

Older Speedos can be kind of annoying if you are accustomed to literally dialing down your power all the time, and it dials down the whole pack, not individual lights. You can either split the current running to a particular head by using their wiring adapter things or you can buy multiple packs. Or, you could buy a Broncolor Scoro if that sounds like too much work.


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## MLeeK

Oh. So I'd need 4 separate packs to have 4 separate power outputs?


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## Alpha

Not really. It's just that you can't dial down each head individually. So let's say you have a 2400w/s pack with four outlets (two on each side). On one side you want a light to output 1200w/s. But say you want one other light that only outputs 300w/s. If you plug a light into the other side, it will draw a quarter of the pack's total power, which is 600 w/s. If you dial down the pack to half-power, then now your first light is only 600 w/s instead of 1200 w/s. So Speedo has devised this nutty system of splitting the power going to individual heads with Y-shaped cables and other things. It sounds insane but you get used to it.

It's less headache to configure it the way you want with the newer packs. See the Power Ratios page of this manual, for example http://www.speedotron.com/system/application/client/files/products/manuals/manual_02257.pdf


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## Derrel

MLeeK said:


> Oh. So I'd need 4 separate packs to have 4 separate power outputs?



No...one power pack of any of the current models will have either 4, or 6 outlets. So, one power pack (aka power supply) can run 1,2,3,or 4 heads. If it is a larger-capacity pack, it can run from 1 to 6 heads. Poor Helen...no variable power adjustment dials...aka "the variator"....sob,sob...

Brown_D202_WEB.JPG photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com
D202-200 watt-second, 2-outlet, ultra-small portable pack.


Brown_D402_WEB.JPG photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com
D402, 4-outlet pack with Symmetrical/Asymmetrical options, two channels, comprised of 1 and 2, and 3 and 4.


Brown_D604_WEB.JPG photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com
D604, 4-outlet pack. Symmetrical/Asymmetrical options, two channels, comprised of 1 and 2, and 3 and 4.


Black_405_WEB.JPG photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com
Black Line D405,recently discontinued. Symmetrical/Asymmetrical options. 3-outlet pack, two channels, A and B; has variable power dial-down control knob.


Black_805_WEB.jpg photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com
Black Line 805, recently discontinued. Symmetrical/Asymmetrical options. 4-outlet pack, 3 channels, A, B, and C;has variable power dial-down control knob.


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## MLeeK

Ok. Someone want to come show me how to work all this if I order? My head is spinning here...

Y cables and all of this were mentioned... What do you consider to be basic needs (besides the heads and power packs) when ordering?

What is the average life of a tube? Same as a monolight I'd guess? 

I really need a road map to "How Speedtron Works... for dummies"


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## kundalini

MLeeK said:


> Ok. Someone want to come show me how to work all this if I order? My head is spinning here...


That's why I went with PCB White Lightning monolights to start with.  Plug and Play, no fuss no muss.

When I was looking on ebay for the pack and head stuff, it just looked like a bunch of parts to me.


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## MLeeK

I have some old white lightnings I am replacing... which is what lead me to this!


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## Derrel

Average life of a Speedo flash tube...in years, 1987 to 2011, 2 of 3 tubes STILL WORKING on M11- flash tubes. "Lifetime", unless broken by impact.

Depends what you want....the Y-cable is an old Brown Line device...

I would want one 36x48 Softbox from Photoflex, or BIGGER, as a large,soft main light. Two Lastolite 40 inch umbrella boxes. One heavy-duty boom stand with 15 lb counterweight. One 11.5 inch refelctor with 20 and 35 degree grids. 1 set of 2-way barndoors for 11.5 inch reflector and 1-Mylar snap-on diffuser. Two, 202VF flash heads (Variable Focusing, with 35 to 90 degree beam spread), three 102 flash heads with 7 inch umbrella reflectors, 4 additional 11.5 inch flash heads with mylar diffusers. One grid "set" for 7 inch reflectors. Three mylar snap-on diffusers for 7 inch reflectors. One short backlight stand that tops out at 4 feet tall. Five quality light stands. 1 Chinese-made strip box from eBay. 1 Chinese made 20 in ch beauty dish with 20 or 35 degree grid and diffuser sock for $129. A couple LARGE white reflectors, door-sized.

With that, you could shoot any portraits in-studio. Power level??? I still like the Black Line, six-outlet packs in the 1200 or 2400 watt-second size, since they are so plentiful and so low-cost on eBay, used.


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## Big Mike

I think it was a Joe McNally book I was reading...he liked the pack & head systems...but he ended up getting a pack for each head.  Partially because he wanted full control of the power of each light, individually.  I think another issue was the limitation of multiple lights having to be tethered to a single pack location.


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## Village Idiot

MLeeK said:


> Ok. Someone want to come show me how to work all this if I order? My head is spinning here...
> 
> Y cables and all of this were mentioned... What do you consider to be basic needs (besides the heads and power packs) when ordering?
> 
> What is the average life of a tube? Same as a monolight I'd guess?
> 
> I really need a road map to "How Speedtron Works... for dummies"



I have 2 packs and 5 heads with some additional stuff for sale. 

I couldn't live with just one pack when using multiple lights.

How it works with say the 400w/s pack, is that you can choose to "bridge" or separate the A and B channels and if you have 3 lights plugged in, you can have either 133w/s at all three lights or 200w/s on one light and 100w/s on the other two. You can remove one light and have 200w/s on both or remove the other light and use both channels together.

The variator will let you step the power down 2 stop from full for a totall of 3 stop range in 1/3 stop increments and it affects the entier pack. So with one light at 200w/s and two at 100w/s, you can knock them down one stop to 100/50/50 and another to 50/25/25. This is why it's important to have multiple heads if you don't have a pack for each head. Sometimes you need a 2nd or 3rd head to act as a bleeder to get an other channel down to the power you need to be. The other night I was shooting with just the 400w/s pack and I had to toss a 3rd head on there and fire it into a cardboard box to get it to bleed the power off.

The reason I'm selling my Speedo gear is I have a little money saved up and I want something lighter. I have a Pelican 1654 with a 400w/s pack, 1200w/s pack, 5 heads, and all cables and it weighs over 100lbs. This is not the best thing in the world to have when my shoots are all on location. Speedo gear is heavy.


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## Village Idiot

Big Mike said:


> I think it was a Joe McNally book I was reading...he liked the pack & head systems...but he ended up getting a pack for each head.  Partially because he wanted full control of the power of each light, individually.  I think another issue was the limitation of multiple lights having to be tethered to a single pack location.



That's why I'd settle for two Profo D4 packs and 5-6 heads. Each channel can be controlled individually, IIRC. That's only $20,000


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## Alpha

On the other hand, one incidental benefit of Speedo's (and many pack systems in general) rigidity is that you're locked into the ratio. While you can't fine-tune each light very well on a single pack, the ratio between lights stays the same when you dial down the whole pack. So while you lose the ability to fine-tune each head, you never have to worry about whether the ratio is still correct while you're fiddling with individual lights.


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## GrantH

I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them. 

My situation:

Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography

-Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong). 
-Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system

With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack?  The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?


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## o hey tyler

GrantH said:


> With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack?  The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?



If you need to find tune the adjustment of a light, move it closer or farther away... Like they used to back in the day. 

You can also get a tri-level converter to make additional adjustments to brown line gear if I understand correctly. SPEEDOTRON BROWN LINE TRI-LEVEL CONTROL EX. CONDITION | eBay


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## GrantH

o hey tyler said:


> GrantH said:
> 
> 
> 
> With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack?  The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you need to find tune the adjustment of a light, move it closer or farther away... Like they used to back in the day.
> 
> You can also get a tri-level converter to make additional adjustments to brown line gear if I understand correctly. SPEEDOTRON BROWN LINE TRI-LEVEL CONTROL EX. CONDITION | eBay
Click to expand...


Oddly enough, at least when I've viewed Ebay, the black line seems to be the better deal and more readily available. At least at the moment.


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## Dominantly

Oh boy (smoke coming from ears), what a read.


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## Village Idiot

GrantH said:


> I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them.
> 
> My situation:
> 
> Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography
> 
> -Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong).
> -Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system
> 
> With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack?  The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?



I use a 1200 w/s pack for automotive lighting with an Innovatronix Tronix Explorer XT SE. With a VML, your recycle time may end up being close to...forever?


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## Big Mike

Yes...you can also (sometimes) control the amount of exposure you're getting from a light, by how close it is to the subject.  So don't think that monolights are 'that much' better than pack & head systems, in terms of adjustability.  

I say 'sometimes' because it matter what your shooting.  If something is characterized by 100% diffuse reflection, then the 'inverse square' law is in full effect.  That means that if you move the light to half the distance it was before, the exposure gets 4 times brighter.  If you moved it to 1\3 the original distance, it would be 9 times brighter.  And if you went the other way and moved it twice as far from the subject, you get 1/4 the exposure.  

If your subject is characterized by direct reflection (a shiny meter car, has both direct and diffuse reflection), then the exposure is not affected by the inverse square law (but the size of the direct reflection will be affected).


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## GrantH

Village Idiot said:


> GrantH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have talked to Derrel in PM about the speedotrons and he was very helpful, but i'm still a bit skeptical of the ratio power system. Especially outside of a studio like I would use them.
> 
> My situation:
> 
> Alien Bees vs. Speedotron Blackline for automotive photography
> 
> -Alien Bees offer a slider for adjustability which I believe is a slide motion and not clicks (correct me if i'm wrong).
> -Speedotrons offer adjustability on a ratio system
> 
> With a single power pack, what if I need to dial in light to an amount not available on the speedo pack?  The alien bee would allow for the fine tuning. I don't know the frequency of this situation or if it would ever be needed, but the option is there one the alien bees and not the speedos. Correct? My other question is to power a 2400 watt power supply, would something like the vagabond mini work or do I need some larger and/or a generator?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use a 1200 w/s pack for automotive lighting with an Innovatronix Tronix Explorer XT SE. With a VML, your recycle time may end up being close to...forever?
Click to expand...


With that in mind, and the fact i'm looking to use them outside of the house away from power, I really don't know which is better for me lol.


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## Derrel

If you want to photograph LARGE objects like automobiles, it would seem to me that you should forget the tiny lights, and go for a system that allows you to put some real watt-seconds through the flashtubes. Monolight manufacturers push the micro-adjustability of their products, since it is a feature that they offer. However, in the real world of lighting, if you need 2/10 of an f/stop less light or more light, you typically just nudge the lightstand a little closer or a little farther back. And, since it is now 2011, and not 1987, we have cameras that allow 1/3 stop bracketing of exposure via the ISO control, with basically zero penalty in image quality. And, with no push/or pull-processing charges from the film developing lab. We're not shooting Ektachrome 64 Professional these days, so the micro-adjustability feature that monolight makers tout...it's largely a marketing feature that is easy to capitalize on. And, no offense to anybody involved, but it (micro-adjustable power settings) is EXACTLY the kind of non-important feature that sways so many newbies in their purchasing decisions...it's easy to understand, and it SOUNDS GOOD to people who have no experience in lighting things.


Back to the original post--"Einsteins?". Einsteins are newly-introduced. It took years, literally, and loads of delays and excuses and blame-shifting (engineers,and parts suppliers, were both publicly and repeatedly blamed for their failures in the years' long development process) before they finally made it to market. The Einstein 640 has great specifications. Short flash durations,always. Excellent color consistency across a wide range of power levels. Good recycling times. Nice controls. The question to me is, in the context of MLeeK's original post, devoted to small-studio or in-home portraiture is: "*Are they worth $499.95 per light, when for studio portraiture, one often needs two accent lights set to output only 50 watt-seconds each?" *I maintain that studio portraiture requires five separate lights on many,many occasions. That's a $2,500 investment, and the most-powerful light you have is a "640 model", which to ME, means about a 300 watt-second light...I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling _that_ the model number--that is Buff's game...


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## GrantH

I must say, well put and explained Derrel. I am excited to purchase my power pack and head shortly after the new year and save for 1 more and an actual "power supply".

Seems like what you say about portrait photographers is not logical either. A couple of large expensive lights vs. multiple smaller cheaper. I guess you can fry fish many ways.


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## MLeeK

Derrel said:


> I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling _that_ the model number--that is Buff's game...



I think it is a LOT of the monolight manufacturer's game. WHY is that?? For God's sake, just make it easier! LOL!


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## Derrel

MLeeK said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not fooled by the doubling of the power level and calling _that_ the model number--that is Buff's game...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is a LOT of the monolight manufacturer's game. WHY is that?? For God's sake, just make it easier! LOL!
Click to expand...


Well, it goes wayyyy back to the 1980's, when monolights were just coming into their own. Prior to that, studio flash had been dominated by old-line companies like Speedotron, who invented the first commerical electronic pack and head system in 1939, as well as Photogenic Machine Company, another heartland, USA company with roots dating back even farther (but _not_ in flash technology), to the early 1900's. In the early White Lightning days, Paul Buff began using the term "effective watt-seconds" in his full- and half-page magazine advertisements, ostensibly to counteract claims from unnamed "other manufacturers". This subject has come up many times on various forums, over many years. "Nobody" really knows "who or what" these other manufacturers were or are. The concept of "effective watt-seconds" being somewhere around DOUBLE that of competing "other" brands of lighting equipment is _pure marketing genius_, and at the same time, is _incredibly devious and disingenuous.
_
Another example is the Lumen-Seconds measurements Buff likes to throw around...another measurement nobody else uses...and a totally meaningless number to 99.5% of photographers. Buff is also reluctant to provide simple Guide Number comparisons stating a reflector size, model, and beam spread angle...This "doubling" thing is now widespread, as other manufacturers have been forced to adopt Paul C. Buff's decades-old smoke and mirror naming convention...the Alien Bee 400 is a 160 watt-second light unit...

The entire "un-named" and "phantom" competition concept is one that, once again, Buff himself began as a marketing device. It spreads fear, uncertainty, and doubt quite nicely. The guy is a marketing genius. Well, let me re-state that: the many makers of studio flash systems are some of the ABSOLUTE-WORST MARKETERS IN ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHIC FIELD!!! I have no idea how some companies have stayed in business for so long, except pure word of mouth advertising.


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## Big Mike

Hey Derrel, what's your opinion (if any) on Ascorlight pack & head systems?  I've got two old packs and (I think) six heads.  The packs need repair work, but they do function.  Just one pack will blow the (house) circuit breaker after a few shots, so I've never really tried using them for a shoot.


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