# Photo of a Photo -so clear- is my daughter lying?



## george50 (Jan 15, 2008)

Photo of a photo - possible? My kids are getting slicker as the years go  by. Im a snoopy Dad, and I only argue with my kids based on solid facts, and I'm just trying to figure out if this is possible...

I found a JPG of my daughter at a beach party during the time she was supposed to be grounded. She claims it was a photo of her at a party a year prior, and she just took a photo of the print since she didnt have a scanner and wanted to put it on her facebook page. She claims she did this when she was grounded and bored at home.  Is this possible? The picture looks pretty sharp, but thats why I'm asking this question. The reason why I'm going all CSI on her is because the boy in the picture is her ex boyfriend who is a drug abuser and she claimed she broke up with him. I just want to be sure!
Shes a photography nut and has access to bright lights (but no access to a scanner) 
The metadata (image properties) of the JPG shows: 
Photo A
1/251 sec shutter speed
F/6.3
focal 6mm
exposure time 1/250sec

Photo B
f/3.2
focal 6mm
exposure time 1/640 

Theyre all 600x400, 120 to 180dpi - not exactly super high-res or 8x10 quality, but looks like your average myspace photos.
the best i can do with my own experiments with a reading lamp is 1/120 film speed and 3.2 aperture. If i push it to ISO1600 it looks obviously grainy. I dont have a lot of lights but perhaps you boys have some big toys which can do this? 
My question is - could she have taken a photo of a photo INDOORS with lots of lights, and still come up with the same image meta data as Photo A and Photo B above? (which look like real outdoors photos) 

If you could post samples of your "photo of a photo" creations that look digital quality, not grainy...and also have similar metadata to the one above, then my mind will be at rest. If not possible, then please let me know why so I can confront my daugther with some facts. 

On another note, is it possible to easily modify meta-data, especially DATE photo taken? because she might be doing that in the future. 

Looking forward to seeing responses....
Thank you for your help 
George


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## Garbz (Jan 15, 2008)

There is no way to tell without looking at the pictures.

Clues are: 
- not sharp enough
- can see the print problems in the original (a problem if the pic is of crap quality)
- uneven lighting on the photograph
- reflection in the photograph
- distortion in the photograph caused by perspective problems.

Given that most photographs are glossy and even the matte finish ones have a shine to them photographing them in a way that it looks like an original photo is something even professionals have trouble with. Especially lighting control.

It's a pity the shutter speeds wern't exactly 1/60th because then it is usually a sign of flash photography and you could tell straight away since the flash would reflect off the photo.

But here's another thing to consider. Photo A:
f/6.3 @ 1/250th of a second is an Exposure Value of 13. Lets assume that the photo was taken at ISO100 (the lowest on most cameras). The thing ringing alarm bells here is that an EV13 at ISO100 would be the perfect shutter speed to photograph something bright outdoors. So unless your daughter has bright lights in her room (we're talking skin cancer bright) then that picture if it looks like it's reasonably exposed was taken outside (very close to the perfect exposure for something directly lit by the sun).

Photo B also has an EV of 13. 

I assume your daughter does not have big toys like flash heads that you would need to make this work indoors at low ISO?

If you can find out the ISO of the picture it would confirm without a doubt if the photo was taken in nearly direct sunlight. But I am begining to worry. At ISO1600 you would be looking at something equivalent to EV9 @ ISO100 which is the type of brightness emitted by Galleries, Sports events and high powered lighting for Stage shows. Nearly 4-16 times brighter than your average house lighting.

This isn't an exact science. I would point to a lie, but err on the side of caution, if it's true your daughter is rather talented.


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## Big Mike (Jan 15, 2008)

A photo doesn't move, so you don't necessarily need a lot of light to photograph it.  All you need is a longer shutter speed...and if the camera isn't moving either (tripod or other support) then you can get a sharp photo.

That being said, the shutter speeds listed, point to plenty of light...posibly flash.


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## Val (Jan 15, 2008)

Leave your daughter alone.


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## Alpha (Jan 15, 2008)

It's not a photo of a photo. You can't do copy work, even mediocre copy work, with a digital point-and-shoot.


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## Double H (Jan 15, 2008)

Val said:


> Leave your daughter alone.



That sounds like great advice...NOT! That's the problem with a lot of folks out there who have kids, they leave them alone. :thumbdown:

I hope you crack your case George. I would ask to see the print she allegedly shot.


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## nicfargo (Jan 15, 2008)

As far as I know, you can't change EXIF data (meta data as you called it).  I could be wrong though.


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## usayit (Jan 15, 2008)

Double H said:


> That sounds like great advice...NOT! That's the problem with a lot of folks out there who have kids, they leave them alone. :thumbdown:
> 
> I hope you crack your case George. I would ask to see the print she allegedly shot.



I agree....  too many parents that want to be a friend to their children rather than a parent.


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## mrodgers (Jan 15, 2008)

usayit said:


> I agree.... too many parents that want to be a friend to their children rather than a parent.


I agree. It would be impossible for the daughter to be at the beach when she's grounded. How could a parent not know that they are not in the house?

Ooooohhhh, the parents are both at work, thus there is no parenting......

It still confuses me why people have children when they don't want to be parents....

_"Your grounded, no beach this week.  But neither of us are going to be home all day and every day this week, so please do as we say and not go to the beach....."_  Yeah, that is good parenting...


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## Val (Jan 15, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> _"Your grounded, no beach this week.  But neither of us are going to be home all day and every day this week, so please do as we say and not go to the beach....."_  Yeah, that is good parenting...



To the above comments, this is what i was referring to. Not to leave her alone literary, but rather stop finding faults with her and start finding faults with yourself.


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## LaFoto (Jan 15, 2008)

Folks, this thread is not about parenting.

It is supposed to be about photography.

Do not confuse the two.

Like Garbz is saying: it is hard to tell if it is even LIKELY it is a photo of a print without seeing that photo. You CAN take photos of photos, and the result can even be good. Even with a digital "point and shoot". Whether Max believes this or not. It CAN be done.

But often, the picture quality is no longer quite AS clear and sharp and free from any kind of blemishes as a digital photo of a real scene would be, and often specks of light reflection (from a no longer totally flat print) cannot really be excluded, so there might be hints.

Let her show you the print that served her as motif for the digital pic and everything should be ok. If she comes up with excuses for why it is no longer there, there is cause for discussion I should think...


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## Alpha (Jan 15, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> Even with a digital "point and shoot". Whether Max believes this or not. It CAN be done.



Prove it?


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## VADER1775 (Jan 15, 2008)

It is possible to take a picture of a picture, and have it look real, especially on a computer monitor or camera LCD.  Print the picture and look for clues "*IN*" the picture.  Has her hair style changed in a year, length, etc.  Something that would appear in a picture that she did not have a year ago, like a tattoo, or a scar?  I don't mean to offend you by saying your daughter has a tattoo, just an example.  Or maybe a tattoo on the "crack head" ex-boyfriend.  
Anyway, Good luck, and remember to post your findings.


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## Campbell (Jan 15, 2008)

Val said:


> Leave your daughter alone.


 
I was thinking that until he mentioned the "drug abusing boyfriend". I think he's doing what is right. She's lucky she has a dad that cares.

Good luck :thumbup:


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## VADER1775 (Jan 15, 2008)

Oh yeah, just because people have to work, does not make them bad parents.  We try to teach right and wrong, but kids don't always listen to their parents, and go out when they are grounded.  If we don't look out for our kids, bad people will get them.  I commend him for looking out for his daughter.  We need more parents who care about their kids in this world.


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## Val (Jan 15, 2008)

Campbell said:


> I was thinking that until he mentioned the "drug abusing boyfriend".



Id say the upbringing was pretty horrible if it went that far, so too late to correct anything 

At least in my experience and from families i know you either have kids with great parents and no trouble or kids with bad parents and lots and lots of problems. As far as i remember limitation hasnt solved a single problem yet. Just my 2c.

Anyway its a photoforum :blushing: so im quitting this (imho) silly thread. My advice is be honest with you kids, limit thier freedom as little as possible and talk to them if you think there is a problem. You will get great results in return :thumbup:


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## Rrr3319 (Jan 15, 2008)

really really hate to continue this into the world of off-topic as it is a photography forum... however...
whether it's a picture of a picture or not, you might want to question why she wants to include a picture of her supposedly ex-boyfriend.  if she just needs a picture of her for her facebook page, why not just use the camera and take a pic of herself rather than use an "old" pic that includes a guy from her past?  seems kinda weird to me either way.

again, sorry to keep going in the off-topic world but teen girls are slippery creatures, you have to keep your eyes on them.


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## LaFoto (Jan 15, 2008)

This is about PHOTOGRAPHY, not about parenting!!! Keep that in mind. Please.

And Max, I never even attempted to let my photos of the photos on the posters of my exhibition pass as original photos - but here_is_a_random_example of a photo of photos taken with a "point and shoot" (Canon Powershot A95). Well, I hope you can get to it, it's taken off my blogger-account, which might not work... but I tried.


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## Jermz_01 (Jan 15, 2008)

LaFoto... link = fail (for me at least)... 
*crying in corner*


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## LaFoto (Jan 15, 2008)

Oops. Well, I was afraid that might happen ... *sigh* ... go to my blogspot, address in my profile, and look in the September and October installments. The photos become bigger when you click them.


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## RMThompson (Jan 15, 2008)

Is it possible? Yes.

Is it likely? Probably not.

Should your parenting techniques matter to anyone on this board? No


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## RMThompson (Jan 15, 2008)

What about hairstyles? Clothing? These things should be visible clues as to what YEAR the photo was taken.


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## RMThompson (Jan 15, 2008)

Wait a tic... how did you get metadata from the print if she didn't have it as a JPG? Why would she need to take a picture of a print if she already had access to a JPG? 

As far as messing with the data, it sure is easy. Your camera has a clock, and its easy to reset or manipulate to any date you'd like I imagine.


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## hawkeye (Jan 15, 2008)

MaxBloom said:


> It's not a photo of a photo. You can't do copy work, even mediocre copy work, with a digital point-and-shoot.



Dont be ridiculous.  Of course you can.  Its not exactly "copy work" when your talking myspace quality pictures...  Did she take of a photo of a photo, probably not... can it be done?  Of course it can.


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## chakalakasp (Jan 15, 2008)

Val said:


> At least in my experience and from families i know you either have kids with great parents and no trouble or kids with bad parents and lots and lots of problems.


 
Ah, someone doesn't have much experience. 

Parenting directly affects your children, but to think that excellent parenting completely innoculates your children from the evils of this world is dangerous and untrue.

That said, without posting the picture, there's no way anyone here can help you.  Can it be done?  Sure it can, especially at web resolution.  Was it?  I don't know.  You should probably do more digging with your daughter.  I suggest you ask her to reproduce the photograph again.  If she's capable of doing it once, she's capable of doing it twice.  If she suddenly lost the photo or something, I'd be wary.


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## ThePup (Jan 15, 2008)

MaxBloom said:


> It's not a photo of a photo. You can't do copy work, even mediocre copy work, with a digital point-and-shoot.




You can't do pro quality, but you can most certianly do mediocre...

http://blogs.news.com.au/news/pointandshoot/index.php/news/comments/a_photo_of_a_photo/


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## sabbath999 (Jan 15, 2008)

nicfargo said:


> As far as I know, you can't change EXIF data (meta data as you called it).  I could be wrong though.



Absolutely EXIF data can be changed or edited... ANYTHING digital can be changed or edited if you know what you are doing.

Realistically, however, you do actually need to know what you are doing to edit it... and 99.99 percent of the people who are not photographers don't even know EXIF data exists, let alone how to change it. Heck, a lot of newer photography enthusiasts don't know what the data is or how to change it.

I am guessing that unless the girl in question is:

A) a photographer
B) who knows quite a bit about the "bones" of digital photography
C) who knows that EXIF data exists
D) who knows that it can indeed be edited
E) who knows she NEEDS to edit the data to try to fool dad
F) who know HOW to edit the data
G) who has the time to edit the data...

Ok, you can see how far downfield this is getting for your average 17 year old... pretty darned far downfield...

I am thinking that, for whatever reason, the EXIF data is likely valid. I don't know the answer to your question, but my list points out a series of very unlikely event combinations in an average high school aged kid.

Possible? Almost anything is possible.

Likely? Not in my book, but that is simply a guess.


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## Mike_E (Jan 15, 2008)

With Northern daylight and those values you should be able to get some decent shots given enough attempts.

The cloths, hairstyle etc. would be your best bet though.

Good luck if you venture back to read this.

To those of you that think that he needs to back off, I suggest you try rearing a child before giving advice.  Especially if there is a good possibility of having to rear the grand child and still house the child at the same time when you should be getting ready for your retirement.  The kids/grand kids won't be doing it for you as they will still be struggling to grow up and pay their own bills when you reach SS age.


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## hawkeye (Jan 15, 2008)

Mike_E said:


> To those of you that think that he needs to back off, I suggest you try *rearing* a child before giving advice.  Especially if there is a good possibility of having to *rear* the grand child and still house the child at the same time when you should be getting ready for your retirement.  .



Which in essence, would suck about as much as getting it in the rear


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## Mike_E (Jan 15, 2008)

Sorry, where I'm from you raise vegetables and rear children.

But you are right, it would suck!


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## gmarquez (Jan 15, 2008)

george50 said:


> She claims it was a photo of her at a party a year prior, and she just took a photo of the print since she didnt have a scanner and wanted to put it on her facebook page.




Just ask to see the original photo that she "took a picture of".  If she kept it from a year ago, it probably has some sentimental value, and she should be able to produce it rather quickly...along with similar pictures from the same outing.  If she can produce those similar pictures relatively quickly (ie she doesn't have to shut the door and mask the noise of the photo printer printing up a batch of photos), she is probably telling the truth.  Otherwise, I'd be suspicious myself.

As for a 17 year old editing the exif data, remember that a lot of "kids" now-a-days are a lot more technically savvy than the oldsters.  If she's got both the photog bug and an itching to be on myspace, it's not that far fetched to assume that she both knows about exif data, and how to do a google search to find an exif editor.


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## eravedesigns (Jan 15, 2008)

I believe this is very possible depending on how well it was done and if she played with levels and contrast later in photoshop....Some pretty deep digging just to prove your right about a photo though...why dont you just ask her to show you how she did it and see if it comes out looking just as good?


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## shorty6049 (Jan 15, 2008)

i think that the OP is beeing too invasive of his daughters privacy. My parents have always given me my space, and for the most part "left me alone" and i turned out great. I'm not a drug addict, i do fine in school, i'm going to a nice college as a tech major and i hang out with good people. Yeah, the parents have a lot to do with how their kids turn out, but i dont know if snooping through their stuff and going to these lengths is doing ANYONE a favor. Good parenting usually results in well behaved kids...  maybe its not ALL her fault that shes hanging out with these people... i dont know. but you just sound really creepy going this far and analyzing her photos and everything. my parents would never do that, and they respect me, as i do them.


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## eravedesigns (Jan 15, 2008)

Are you sure she wasnt at this party? It made the news and was by a beach  http://www.break.com/index/funny-kid-isnt-sorry-about-huge-party.html


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## jstuedle (Jan 15, 2008)

DELETED

(Corina is correct, my comment was directed to rearing our children, not photography. I have deleted my post.)


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## am_photoer (Jan 15, 2008)

innocent unless proven guilty, don't assume the worst... it is your child afterall have some faith in her


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## jstuedle (Jan 16, 2008)

am_photoer said:


> innocent unless proven guilty, don't assume the worst... it is your child afterall have some faith in her



I thought we were to comment on the OP's question related to photography. As a parent I kept track of our kids, still do and they are adults. And I can go on and refute every reason I shouldn't. 

BTW, to stay on topic, yes it could have been a copy, but no, I don't believe it was a copy. The evidence is against it. You have every reason to be suspicious.


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## shorty6049 (Jan 16, 2008)

we cant tell you if its a copy unless we see it. everyone is just arguing over something we have no idea about really


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## LaFoto (Jan 16, 2008)

I personally find it somewhat more suspicious now, 24 hours after this thread has been started, that the OP has been active on our forums ONCE. Only ONCE. That is exactly the moment he posted his quest. Never again... What did he ask us his question for when he has never shown any interest in the replies later?

Think about that - and leave this thread well alone as of now. We might be getting our legs pulled...


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## jstuedle (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for the info Corina. Yes, we very well might. I would say with high probability we were.


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## george50 (Jan 16, 2008)

actually, i was reading all the replies daily since i posted. i wasnt sure what OP meant the first time it was mentioned, but it just occurred to me now that it probably means "original poster"--> me?

Thank you for the technical replies, those not pertaining to parenting, that is. this is exactly the input i was looking for. unfortunately, i dont think it would be prudent to post the actual photos here as requested by some. I will take your advice on comparing the print photo to the jpg file. 

thanks


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## AmericanJesus (Jan 20, 2008)

george50 said:


> actually, i was reading all the replies daily since i posted. i wasnt sure what OP meant the first time it was mentioned, but it just occurred to me now that it probably means "original poster"--> me?
> 
> Thank you for the technical replies, those not pertaining to parenting, that is. this is exactly the input i was looking for. unfortunately, i dont think it would be prudent to post the actual photos here as requested by some. I will take your advice on comparing the print photo to the jpg file.
> 
> thanks



Woudlnt have to be the whole photo, what we would really need is like a corp foused on some part of the photo, be it a knee cap or a table.


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## usayit (Jan 20, 2008)

shorty6049 said:


> i think that the OP is beeing too invasive of his daughters privacy.



Kids have no privacy.. adults do.



> My parents have always given me my space, and for the most part "left me alone" and i turned out great. I'm not a drug addict, i do fine in school, i'm going to a nice college as a tech major and i hang out with good people.



Good for you... (I hate it when people use ONE example and apply it to the general in a discussion)



> Yeah, the parents have a lot to do with how their kids turn out, but i dont know if snooping through their stuff and going to these lengths is doing ANYONE a favor. Good parenting usually results in well behaved kids...



GRR... been biting my tongue through this whole thread!!!!

NO.  it results in the likely hood of well behaved kids.  Kids do still get into trouble.... sometimes big time.  As a parent it is your responsibility to be there to set them straight when a mistake is being made.  No way to meet that responsibility unless you are a "Nosey" parent.  

I grew up with kids with SO much future and opportunity with the strong family and parenting to back it up.  We all have the similar backgrounds and upbringing.  Not all of us made it.  One that did was a brother of another that didn't (1 year or so apart in age)... 

My cousin grew up in-between homes after the family split up.  A lot of his friends including him were headed down a very dangerous path.  He found himself in religion (I myself am not religious but I support him) and kicked himself into shape by enlisting into the military.  He's doing very well ... I'm proud of him.

I could list on and on and on.... As a father, I know that good parenting only provides guidance and the tools to be a good person.  It doesn't gaurantee anything and it is getting more and more complex /difficult each day.  This is a scary fact that parents who are trying their best have to face each day.

BTW>. I used to think like you... "leave me alone" dad.. I have my privacy.  That all changed the day I became a father.


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## Arch (Jan 20, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> This is about PHOTOGRAPHY, not about parenting!!! Keep that in mind. Please.



Anymore 'parenting advice' will just get the thread locked. Stop now please.


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## Alex_B (Jan 20, 2008)

Just to give my two cents:

*** ****** ** *******, *** ******! *******, ** *** ******** *** **** *******. ********* ***-***** ****!!!

 I hope I did not offend anyone with this


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## Mike_E (Jan 20, 2008)

Alex_B, I'm glad you see things exactly my way!  

LOLOLOLOLOLOL


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## shorty6049 (Jan 20, 2008)

usayit said:


> Kids have no privacy.. adults do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

calm down there cowboy. 



sure would be nice if we could add a little thing under our avatar that said

it is NOT ok to pick apart this person's posts!

but this is about photography, not parenting, so by doing that, you're only furthering this. I'm stopping now, i hope you will as well.


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## JerryPH (Jan 21, 2008)

I'd not be able to tell until I saw the pic. Yes, it is possible, no it is not easy.

Thats my contribution to this thread. To me, nothing else matters.

Edit:  Every parent has the right to raise their kids in the manner they see fit... good or bad, becuase thats how we all learn anything in life, through experience.


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## kdabbagh (Jan 24, 2008)

I think you should try and crop the pictures and post samples so the experts could compare.

p.s. there is an off-topic chat forum here...


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## quad b (Jan 24, 2008)

you could try to call her bluff so to speak...
find the original, mark it in the corner and ask why the "photo of a photo" doesn't have the mark...she might fess up if there is anything to fess up to?
but that's pretty sly...
i'd compare the original and the jpeg first.


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## adolan20 (Jan 24, 2008)

Just ground her anyway, for being too smart for her own good  Just kidding yeah we need to see the picture first.


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