# 2nd attempt at Pabellón Criollo



## redbourn (Jan 28, 2016)

First attempt, I ended up with blown out white rice the first time

Spent more time getting this better.

Moving camera, softbox and reflector.

Don't know if seeing edge of table was a good idea, but a five minute fix in PS

I used a slightly gray plate.

Michael


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## gsgary (Jan 28, 2016)

The right hand side of the shot where you can see the edge of the table is very distracting


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## redbourn (Jan 28, 2016)

gsgary said:


> The right hand side of the shot where you can see the edge of the table is very distracting



Thanks. Was just experimenting. A few minutes in photoshop to extend the table.


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## tirediron (Jan 28, 2016)

Much improved.  The plating is pleasing, and overall the exposure is good.  I might have opted for a bit more DoF and not cropping off the near edge of the plate, but those are personal choices.  As far as the lighting goes, you still have excess specularity on the table, and compositionally, I agree, the edge of the table is visually irritating.  I would also like to see a little more set-dressin.  Maybe a napkin, some utensils...


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## redbourn (Jan 28, 2016)

tirediron said:


> Much improved.  The plating is pleasing, and overall the exposure is good.  I might have opted for a bit more DoF and not cropping off the near edge of the plate, but those are personal choices.  As far as the lighting goes, you still have excess specularity on the table, and compositionally, I agree, the edge of the table is visually irritating.  I would also like to see a little more set-dressin.  Maybe a napkin, some utensils...




Thanks.

The napkin, utensils thing is a problematic for me.

I have about 1900 Facebook friends and followers and hope to have 5000 by the time I finish the photos for my book.

Every time I shoot the same (similar) photo with and without knives and forks etc.

People pretty much universally prefer the photos with just the food.

The find the extras, and I bought many of them, distracting.

We can easily look down on them, but who are we shooting photos for, and why ?

Was easier and perhaps more aesthetic to crop the the table.


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## chuasam (Jan 28, 2016)

Plate feels too full.
use less ingredients or a bigger plate.


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## redbourn (Jan 29, 2016)

chuasam said:


> Plate feels too full.
> use less ingredients or a bigger plate.




Thanks for the comment.

I can't use less "ingredients" because it's the Venezuelan national dish, and some people even put a friend egg on top.

I could have used smaller portion sizes, but then the meal, often a festive one would look skimpy.

I used a standard size plate and realize that with photography it's common to cheat perspectives.

Maybe a plate about inch or so bigger in diameter would have been better, but I don't have one.


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## redbourn (Jan 29, 2016)

gsgary said:


> The right hand side of the shot where you can see the edge of the table is very distracting



Thanks for the post.


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## gsgary (Jan 29, 2016)

redbourn said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > The right hand side of the shot where you can see the edge of the table is very distracting
> ...


That looks better 

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## redbourn (Jan 29, 2016)

tirediron said:


> Much improved.  The plating is pleasing, and overall the exposure is good.  I might have opted for a bit more DoF and not cropping off the near edge of the plate, but those are personal choices.  As far as the lighting goes, you still have excess specularity on the table, and compositionally, I agree, the edge of the table is visually irritating.  I would also like to see a little more set-dressin.  Maybe a napkin, some utensils...



I will buy a product to cut down the table reflections, thanks ..


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## table1349 (Jan 29, 2016)

I would have to agree with a previous poster.   Pabellón con barandas, the term I learned for this dish when fried plantains are a side, in long halves, is not only considered by many to be the Venezuelan national dish, but very much Venezuelan comfort food.  Good comfort food too.  

Food photography is not my thing, but the culinary arts are.  I love to cook, do so in our household daily, subscribe to a couple of the better, to me, culinary magazines and have a book case full of cook books.  Personally I have always found that photos of food as being set in front of one to eat as a more pleasing overall presentation of the subject than food that looks like it was set out for show.  You might consider perhaps pulling back a bit, showing more of the table with basic utensils as well as perhaps a drink with it.  Maybe even with a fork positioned on the plate.   Just my take on it from the perspective of a foodie.


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## redbourn (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for the response.

Several people on this forum have suggested several times that I add cutlery and props and I went out and bought maybe 20 different small props.

So what's the problem with using them?

I am writing a cookbook (printed and online) and can almost say that the book itself is close to written and it's the photos that are holding me back.

I have about 1800 Facebook friends and followers and am looking to have 5,000 before publishing or posting the book.

Think about immediately posting details about the book (several times) to 5,000 people many of whom already want to buy it.

I know Facebook followers and friends are not photographers, but they are the public and the potential buyers.

Anyway, after buying the props I several times posted two images on FB, one with the props and one without and almost universally people said they liked the ones without the props. Cutlery pointing towards the food etc. and some slightly out of focus glasses or a cruet etc. they found very distracting.

I have asked twice asked about this issue on the forum, "Who are we taking photos for, and why are we taking them?".

Nobody so far has wanted to go near this but they have helped me a lot with lighting and other things.

I worked in the film industry for 35 years and almost the first question asked before financing a film is, "What or who is the audience?".

BTW - the book is somewhat different and will be called something similar to, Tips, Tricks & Substitutes. Its for beginners with very detailed instructions that are hopefully foolproof. Lots of tips and what to substitute if you don't have what's in the recipe. Weights and temps are both US standard and metric etc. The photos in the printed version will only be about 7x7"


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## tirediron (Jan 29, 2016)

redbourn said:


> ...I have asked twice asked about this issue on the forum, "Who are we taking photos for, and why are we taking them?"....


Huh... I thought I had responded to this.  I would say you are taking photos for potential buyers first and foremost, and then for those who have bought the book.  The pictures are the hook, people might look at one or two recipes when thumbing through a potential cookery-book purchase, but they'll look at a LOT of photos.  I would guess that the reason your facebook audience isn't raving about your shots "with props" is that they need some further refinement.  How about sharing some of them here?


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## redbourn (Jan 30, 2016)

You most likely  did and I thank you.

For whatever reason, this forum has the most complicated posts that I have ever encountered.

I belong to many forums about many different subjects but only have this problem here.

When I get several responses, it's hard to know which ones I have responded and which ones not.

Anyway ..

I like your idea of of posting examples of why my FB readers much prefer photos of food without the distraction.

Photo was shot on my phone and a download from FB


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## redbourn (Jan 30, 2016)




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## tirediron (Jan 30, 2016)

I can see why this wasn't well received.  The knife & fork look like they were dropped on to the set.  This is more the idea I had in mind; props to give the image interest, but don't detract.


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## redbourn (Jan 31, 2016)

tirediron said:


> I can see why this wasn't well received.  The knife & fork look like they were dropped on to the set.  This is more the idea I had in mind; props to give the image interest, but don't detract.



Thanks.

Attached are a couple of photos that I shot a few months ago.


tirediron said:


> I can see why this wasn't well received.  The knife & fork look like they were dropped on to the set.  This is more the idea I had in mind; props to give the image interest, but don't detract.



I have an idea if you're interested.

Post two photos on my Facebook page, same food, but one with just food and the other with props.

Approval is needed to post but I will grant it.

Something like, "Michael asked me to post two photos of the same meal. Which do you prefer?".

Will be seen by around 2,000 people, but I don't know how many will respond of course.

Michael Redbourn | Facebook

My page is public.

What do you think?

Michael


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## table1349 (Jan 31, 2016)

A couple of examples of food photography with well place props. 
http://studio3.com/blog/wp-content/...staurant-dinner-food-photography-studio-3.jpg

http://studio3.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DB_7743_GracesKitchen_d_FD_1500.jpg

http://studio3.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DB_7416_StarPalate_d_30_FD_1500.jpg


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## tirediron (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm getting a 403 error on all those links Gryph..


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## table1349 (Feb 1, 2016)

So am I now. See what I can do later.


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## redbourn (Feb 1, 2016)

tirediron said:


> I'm getting a 403 error on all those links Gryph..


The links work


gryphonslair99 said:


> A couple of examples of food photography with well place props.
> http://studio3.com/blog/wp-content/...staurant-dinner-food-photography-studio-3.jpg
> 
> http://studio3.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/DB_7743_GracesKitchen_d_FD_1500.jpg
> ...



The links work for me.

All three are beautiful photos,  but would they be good for a cookbook ?

In the first one my eye kept immediately being taken to the glass of whisky.
In the second one it's really hard to focus on the foreground mussels.
The third one works for me.

Again, they are beautiful photos but they look more the type that would be displayed in an ad for a restaurant.

Please take a look at these. 

Recipes | Jamie Oliver


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## tirediron (Feb 1, 2016)

redbourn said:


> ...Please take a look at these.
> 
> Recipes | Jamie Oliver


 And pretty much every one of those has at least some set dressing..., so?


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## redbourn (Feb 1, 2016)

tirediron said:


> redbourn said:
> 
> 
> > ...Please take a look at these.
> ...



Dressing yes, but almost 180 degree different concept.

Nearly all Oliver's photos show very minimal props.

And probably most show just the food.

He's selling cookbooks and has already sold $250,000,00 of them and the photos obviously played a major part.

It's not possible to shoot a photo that is good for all promotions/settings.

Just talking about food here but it probably pertains to most kinds of photography.

I believe a food photo for a menu, a cookbook and a restaurant all need to be different.

It's not a one size fits all.

Do you?

And I appreciate your feedback.


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## tirediron (Feb 1, 2016)

redbourn said:


> ...I believe a food photo for a menu, a cookbook and a restaurant all need to be different.
> 
> It's not a one size fits all.
> 
> ...


 Potentially - in particular, for a cookbook, I feel (and speaking as someone whose sole cooking utensil is the microwave oven) that the images should show an appealing end result, a food portrait if you will, and just like a human's portrait where you coordinate clothing make-up, jewellery, etc, you need to coordinate the "accessories" or set-dressing for the food. 

I am firmly convinced however, that until you start preparing food to photograph, and stop photographing food prepared to eat, you're not going to really progress.  You cite Jamie Oliver's books:  The imagery is without a doubt, excellent.  Do you really think that Jamie photographed those all himself, or that those were meals meant to be eaten AFTER they were photographed?  Not a chance!


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## table1349 (Feb 1, 2016)

redbourn said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I'm getting a 403 error on all those links Gryph..
> ...


They came from a cook book, food photography blog.

What draws my attention to the first one it the missing bite of steak, showing the perfect rare center with the single fork casually placed there as if being set down after eating that bite of steak.

Again in the second one I am first drawn to the bowl with the sea food with the spoon in the bisque, behind the mussels.  The overall photo provides to me a sense of good food being eaten.

The third one I believe is more of the style you were striving for.  It is an elegant oriental dish on a simple but sharp table cloth with the chopsticks there again ready to be used.  Much of all three is the placement.  

FYI.  If you get the 403, go to the address bar, highlight the address and hit enter, the photos pop up then.


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## tirediron (Feb 1, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> ...FYI.  If you get the 403, go to the address bar, highlight the address and hit enter, the photos pop up then.


 That worked.  Weird...

Agreed, you nailed the key points in those images.  Really well done phood photography!


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## enzodm (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm no way an expert of food photography, however I like cooking. 
If you need some argument to be convinced that photographing eatable food is not sufficient: two things you are missing in a book are taste and smell, and you have to substitute them with some extra punch in photos. 
I looked at Jamie Oliver pictures: in half of them there are forks or other decoration, and in general you can see professional expertise - selective focus at first, for example, but also food composition is well made. Your pictures are documents , they show how the real world plate will be for many book readers (this is not a criticism!), but what normally attracts a reader is some high example, even if hard to reach.


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## nat3wall (Feb 1, 2016)

I have nothing to add,  just saying those bananas taste amazing.


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## table1349 (Feb 1, 2016)

Bananas....BANANAS......those aren't no ordinary stinking bananas.   Those are *Plantains!*


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## redbourn (Feb 1, 2016)

tirediron said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > ...FYI.  If you get the 403, go to the address bar, highlight the address and hit enter, the photos pop up then.
> ...



But are they good for a cookbook ?

Jamie Oliver grossed $250,000 million on his cookbooks.

A top photographer does his images.

And when it comes to his cookbook photos, the food is the interest and not the props.

Basically everything else distracts unless it's very subtle.

I will leave it at that and try the best that I can to mimic *David Loftus.*

I can't do it right now because of his experience, his equipment and maybe his talent.

Natant talent can be developed.


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## tirediron (Feb 1, 2016)

Why wouldn't they be good for a cookbook?  Does the food not look attractive and appetizing?  Is that not the goal?  You seem to want to produce clinical text-book images.  While that may show the food more accurately, it's not going to entice people.  Think of it as a passport photo compared to a fine-art portrait.  Both are images of the same person.  One shows every detail in absolute clarity, the other shows the person to their best advantage.


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## table1349 (Feb 1, 2016)

My heritage is Scotch/Irish.  My stomach is pure Italian.  I have a large collection of Giada De Laurentiis and Mario Batali cookbooks.  If you have ever had a chance to look at either of them, take note of the photographs.  They support the recipes, not draw you to the recipes.  The food depicted in the photographs is plated and set to eat, not put out as if it were on display.  

I have the full collection of the Alton Brown cookbooks.  Love the science of cooking as well as the recipes.  The photos in his books are exactly what you would expect from Alton.  They don't show off what he is writing about on each page, rather they invite you in to be part of the creation.  They are homey, genuine felling and appealing in their complex simplicity.  

Perhaps that is what we are trying to explain.  Complex simplicity.  A truly good food has a complex simplicity about it's taste and texture.  It is a complex balance that allows the various flavors and textures to come through in just the right amounts to blend into that simply delicious taste.  

The same thing is true regarding the photos used to depict food.  They need that balance of complex simplicity that rounds out the recipe, not replaces the importance of the recipe.


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## enzodm (Feb 2, 2016)

redbourn said:


> But are they good for a cookbook ?
> Jamie Oliver grossed $250,000 million on his cookbooks.
> A top photographer does his images.


In your second sentence you have the answer to the first, in the third the ideal solution to the problem


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## redbourn (Feb 2, 2016)

enzodm said:


> redbourn said:
> 
> 
> > But are they good for a cookbook ?
> ...



Probably half of the photos in Jamie's cookbooks show only the food with no props and the ones that have props do so in a very minimalist way.

David Loftus is very careful not to distract the eye from the food and I will try copy the layout of some of his photos that do use props.

Amazing ways to use seasonal Australian fruit & veg | Jamie Oliver


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## redbourn (Feb 2, 2016)

tirediron said:


> Why wouldn't they be good for a cookbook?  Does the food not look attractive and appetizing?  Is that not the goal?  You seem to want to produce clinical text-book images.  While that may show the food more accurately, it's not going to entice people.  Think of it as a passport photo compared to a fine-art portrait.  Both are images of the same person.  One shows every detail in absolute clarity, the other shows the person to their best advantage.



It would seem that people wishing to cook a recipe want to clearly focus on the food and not have their eye distracted by other things.

Probably half of the photos in Jamie's cookbooks show only the food with no props and the ones that have props do so in a very minimalist way.

David Loftus is very careful not to distract the eye from the food and I will try copy the layout of some of his photos that do use props.

Amazing ways to use seasonal Australian fruit & veg | Jamie Oliver


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## table1349 (Feb 2, 2016)

?????
https://jamieoliverprod.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/galleries/29/1283_25_1405932028_8535.jpg
https://jamieoliverprod.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/galleries/29/1258_15_1405952698_4310.jpg
https://jamieoliverprod.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/galleries/24/_0002_hungover_noodles_7302.jpg
https://jamieoliverprod.s3-eu-west-...es/24/_0000_lincolnshire_poacher_pie_9197.jpg

Directly from the link you provided.


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## redbourn (Feb 2, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> redbourn said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



I think it's a question of perception, that photographers see photos one way and the general public sees them another way.

The 3 photos came from a "food photography blog".

Out of interest, and I'm simply trying to learn, I showed the 3 photos to two café owners here yesterday and I also showed them three photos without props.

http://www.davidloftus.com/food#41

http://www.davidloftus.com/food#4

David Loftus - Food

Both owners preferred the 3 Loftus photos.

Michael


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## table1349 (Feb 2, 2016)

Cafe owners are't interested in inspiring you to make the food.  They are interested in what you are buying. 

Instead of asking the owners, you might ask the cooks.  

I have found that in most eateries, be it a dinner, drive-in, dive (yes a little humor for the american crowd) or Haute cuisine the food served never quite looks like the photos on the menu. 

Fewer and fewer menus these days seem to have photos, unless you count the ones at Micky D's in the drive thru or the Waffle House.


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## chuasam (Feb 4, 2016)

Getting better but listen - stop trying to make it edible. 
Read this WD-40 and microwaved tampons: secrets of food photography revealed


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