# Would you do this?



## sactown024 (Dec 7, 2012)

*I got this email from a local restaurant and wanted others opinions since it is basically an unpaid event. the email reads as follows

*"Hi Nate

The photo looks great and your branding on the bottom of the picture is totally fine.  And I have a question for you!

We have an event in the restaurant coming up in January on the 25th. Robert Burns Night.  It's a Scottish dinner celebrating the life of Scottish poet Robert Burns.  We had a great time last year and we will be doing the event annually.  We will have traditional Scottish fare, bagpipers, lots of scotch and haggis and many musicians and readers of poetry.  We just had our first organizational meeting to get everyone on board and we're looking for a photographer to capture some of the night on film for promotional use for the restaurant.  Would you be interested in photographing our evening of Scottish revelry?  We are on a budget so we are trying to set up agreements with "trade"  We will give you dinner, the whole kit and kaboodle of Burns Night including scotch if you like it! And a $50 gift certificate to Waterhouse for a future visit.  And we would be happy to give you credit when we use your photos on the website or in other publications.

Let me know if you might be interested.  Your photo of the patio is really lovely and you were our first thought.  

Best,

Kate"

*
would you do it or kindly refuse?*


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 7, 2012)

It all depends on where you are and what benefit you think it will have on you. They are offering you something. How much traffic do you think will notice your work? do you feel you may be able to increase your exposure or maybe network to pull in another job? Some people say to never do any free work (gift certificate some would still consider as you working for free) I have done some free work and have wound up getting work out of it down the line do to that, so for me it was beneficial. You just have to decide if it will be beneficial to you. For me with free work I think at a few diffrent things, 1.Would I enjoy it? (It's free work so if im going to spend my time doing it, it better be something i'd enjoy doing) 2. Will it benefit my portfolio (Is this an event that i can add to my port to generate new work.) 3. Do I feel the client base in attendance corelates to the client's I want to work for ( you can find new customers in the strangest places.) 4. If i'm doing this for free are they going to be accomodationg to me since i'm not getting any monetary value. ( Sounds like they are with the offer of dinner and a gift card)


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## texkam (Dec 7, 2012)

I would do it if thier utility company, food and beverage suppliers, insurance company, accountant, advertising agency, employees including Kate and the top management are all agreeing to the same compensation agreement.


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## pixmedic (Dec 7, 2012)

I wonder how many other people are working there for food.  Maybe you should ask.  Im guessing Kate isnt.  Im not saying you shouldn't do it though... If a dinner and a future dinner are compensation enough for you then it isnt a problem.  People barter skills all the time. If you think it will be fun,  or will benefit your portfolio and/or possibly lead to other paying jobs then do it. Just be careful that they dont just assume they can buy your time and skills with a dinner every time they need an event photographed. You dont want your "going rate"  to be dinner amd a gift certificate.


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## runnah (Dec 7, 2012)

Go for it. These types of deals are great because not only do you get something good out of the deal you, don't have to tell Uncle Sam about it. 

I've known freelancers who get driveways paved, oil tanks filled and decks rebuilt for their work.


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## KmH (Dec 7, 2012)

> for promotional use for the restaurant.


I would shoot for the dinner, booze and gift certificate, but the promotional use would cost extra.
How much extra would depend on a number of factors - like exclusive/non-exclusive use, media types, impressions, web site clicks per month, and how long they would want to use the photos, etc.

Ultimately, the only thing a photographer actually has to sell is licensing usage rights of some kind.

That is what copyright is all about. Copyright is a bunch of rights that the photographer can license piecemeal.

Licensing Guide | American Society of Media Photographers


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## e.rose (Dec 7, 2012)

Would *I* do it for just that?  No.

Would I have done it for just that 2 years ago?  Yeah.

I agree that it depends on where you're at.

If you're good with that, do it.  If not, maybe squeeze a few more meals out of them since they're gonna have prolonged use of the images, why shouldn't you get equally compensated by their kitchen? 

And if food isn't enough... Give them a monetary quote and leave it at that.

How do YOU feel about their offer?


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## Patrice (Dec 7, 2012)

Looking at it another way, if you don't have a paying assignment for that evening you could stay home and eat KD or go take some photos, envoy the revelry, tastes some decent scotch and get some exposure for your business. I'd pick the scotch.


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## Buckster (Dec 7, 2012)

I would do it, and use it as a networking tool with the patrons there - so make sure that's in the contract.  Have lots of business cards to give out so they can get photos of themselves from you in aftermarket sales, and that opens up a list of potential clients for you.

Use it to your advantage.


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## JAC526 (Dec 7, 2012)

I would totally do this.  Free dinner and Scotch...yes please.


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## sactown024 (Dec 7, 2012)

Nice, thanks for all the input, some great info here. I def need the exposure but maybe ill hit them with the ol' " pay for my gas and throw in a few more meals". Ireally  like the business card idea.

Doing the event for free and charging them for the digitals is a good idea too. Not sure if they will bite on that though. I love how they will pay the bagpipers business but for some reason they think they can get away with offering the photographer a meal, cheap ass'. The problem is if I say no, they will just go ask Joe Shmo down the road with his new rebel to do it for free.


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## gsgary (Dec 7, 2012)

I would set up my studio,laptop,and dye sub printer and mint it, do you shoot on film she said she wants it capturing on film


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## Mully (Dec 7, 2012)

Buckster said:


> I would do it, and use it as a networking tool with the patrons there - so make sure that's in the contract.  Have lots of business cards to give out so they can get photos of themselves from you in aftermarket sales, and that opens up a list of potential clients for you.
> 
> Use it to your advantage.



Hand out business cards and yak it up.... just have them sign a contract for restricted usage.


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## pixmedic (Dec 7, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> Nice, thanks for all the input, some great info here. I def need the exposure but maybe ill hit them with the ol' " pay for my gas and throw in a few more meals". Ireally  like the business card idea.
> 
> Doing the event for free and charging them for the digitals is a good idea too. Not sure if they will bite on that though. I love how they will pay the bagpipers business but for some reason they think they can get away with offering the photographer a meal, cheap ass'. The problem is if I say no, they will just go ask Joe Shmo down the road with his new rebel to do it for free.



If you want to do it because you are fine with doing it for the dinner and drinks, thats fine. but dont go do it just because someone else will do it that cheap or cheaper. let THEM take the hit. the restaurant wouldn't expect someone to go in there and get their food for next to nothing just because they can go to McDonald's and eat for cheap.


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## kathyt (Dec 7, 2012)

I would have done this when I was first starting out in business and trying to get my name out there. Sure. I would not drink at the event though, because it would not look very professional.


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 7, 2012)

I agree with pixmedic, don't sell yourself short because your worried about some other kid doing it for less. just decided on wether your getting what you need out of it. If you don't feel you are. go back to them and ask them how much there paying the bagpipe players? and maybe ask for more. All they can do is say no, And you had allready decided it wasn't worth your time, so no loss to you. A lot of it is going to be the same on there end. They will see the bagpipe players as someone who is helping make there event a sucsess, They just see you as geting some photos for them to put on their site. The resteraunt will see the value between the two as vastly diffrent.It's your job to be seen as a value to there business. Let them know the payment is going to someone who will get quality shots of there event that will hopefully entice more people to see the fun that was had at the resteraunt and want to come out and check it out.


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## JAC526 (Dec 7, 2012)

kathythorson said:


> I would have done this when I was first starting out in business and trying to get my name out there. Sure. I would not drink at the event though, because it would not look very professional.



Gonna have to disagree with the no drinking part.....now I'm not saying get drunk but the people at this party are clearly not anti-drinking if its a scotch and haggis party.  I think as long as you maintain your composure drinking some scotch will only help to break the ice and become more approachable with what could be potential future clients.


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 7, 2012)

I myself would keep away from alcohol even if I got the green light to imbibe. i'm there to do a job and that should always take priority over alcohol. your also going there to sell yourself to other people and to try and network and you dont want to be seen as drinking on the job and smelling of alcohol regardless who gave you permission.


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## jake337 (Dec 7, 2012)

Answer these three questions:


Do you have time?

Is there food good?

Do you like Scotch?



If you answer yes to the Scotch question, the first two are void and not needed.


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## pixmedic (Dec 7, 2012)

jake337 said:


> Answer these three questions:
> 
> 
> Do you have time?
> ...



especially if they have some nice single malts. you could definitely get your moneys worth then.


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## tirediron (Dec 7, 2012)

Free scotch and haggis?   Damn... I'd be all over that!!  Yeah, if I didn't have anything on, I'd shoot for food, BUT I agree that there's no way they'd get a free, full rights usage-license!  For me, a LOT would depend on the restaurant itself.  People have helped me in my business and I firmly believe in paying that forward, BUT I'm not going to help a restaurant that's already doing a booming business everyday, despite their allegations of a "tight budget".


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## snowbear (Dec 7, 2012)

But mark the Rustic, haggis fed
The trembling earth resounds his tread
Clap in his walie nieve a blade, He'll mak it whissle
An' legs an' arms, an' heads will sned,
Like taps o' thrissle.



jake337 said:


> Is there food good?


Have you had haggis (with neeps & taties)?


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## panblue (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes I'd do it. Get p*ssed and eat like a horse. Network. Make lots of contacts in various ways. Take remarkable photos. Treat it as a social with free drink.



sactown024 said:


> *I got this email from a local restaurant and wanted others opinions since it is basically an unpaid event. the email reads as follows
> 
> *"Hi Nate
> 
> ...


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## panblue (Dec 7, 2012)

The wording of the proposal IMO, is a a formulated gambit/low ball  OK..drink them under the table LOL no worries


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## Derrel (Dec 7, 2012)

I think the $50 gift certificate/voucher amount is, frankly, ridiculously low on their part, even with one Robert Burns night freebie...I mean $50 in restaurant food and drink....what is that? $8 wholesale cost??? $12, tops?

I dunno...I'd hand out business cards and network the chit out of the room, but would NOT drink...I think drinking alcohol while providing photographic services and handing out cards looks unprofessional. I would, frankly, ask for the first part of the compensation to be deferred to another, different night, at a later date, and then to have them up the gift certificate value to $150. All in all, still a bargain for them.


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## Steve5D (Dec 8, 2012)

I've done similar stuff. 

I shot a poker run for an American Legion post a few years ago. The post got photos for free, and I was given more food and drink that I could've asked for. I also had a printer set up, and people could buy the photos I took of them, that day, on their bikes. I think I sold a 5x7 for $11.00, and the Legion got $3.00 of every print sold. I think I made about $120.00 in cash that day, but I also handed out cards that resulted in three paying gigs.

Honestly, deciding whether or not to do something like that completely depends on my mood when I'm asked...


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## Awiserbud (Dec 8, 2012)

I think if your going to enjoy it, then treat it as a free night out, My only concern is the more people aree to do stuff like this for free, the harder it will become to actually get paid for gigs like this in the future. 
This restaurant will always remember getting these photos for nothing, and will not see any reason to pay should they require a photographer in the future (assuming you will give them some nice shots of the evening)
restaurant owners always seem to know a lot of people too, so whenever the topic of photography comes up in future they may very well include their story of how you dont always have to pay photographers.
I'm not saying dont do it for free, but i think it would be important to let them know this sort of thing would normally be chargable and you would be doing them a big favour, also make sure your watermarks are clearly visible and get you the credit you deserve.
As a general rule if someone is paying for my work they get a clean photo, otherwise my name will be all over them.


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## texkam (Dec 8, 2012)

> the more people agree to do stuff like this for free, the harder it will become to actually get paid for gigs like this in the future


Ding ding ding. A winner! There's a reason the business of photography gets treated with no respect. A good photographer's half day rate should be more than basically a couple of dinners. If you are a hack, go for it. The compensation is appropriate, but a talented pro should not agree to a deal like this. 





> We are on a budget


No, we are cheap.

Turn the tables. If you were asking them to cater your photo studio's big open house for next to nothing because you are on a budget, what kind of response do you think they would have? Yeah, thought so.


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## KmH (Dec 8, 2012)

texkam said:


> > We are on a budget
> 
> 
> No, we are cheap.
> ...


Absolutely.

"Hi Kate

The food looks great and your caterer branding on the bottom of the picture is totally fine. And I have a question for you!

We have an event in the studio coming up in January on the 25th. Client Appreciation Night.  We had a great time last year and do this annually. We always have traditional open house fare, music, and would like to have lots of wine, cheese, crackers, and other party type fare. We just had our first organizational meeting to get everyone on board and we're looking for a caterer to provide the food and drink. Would you be interested in catering our evening of Client Appreciation? We are on a budget so we are trying to set up agreements with "trade" We will give you use restricted photos of the whole kit and kaboodle you provide! And a $50 gift certificate to our studio for a future visit. And we would be happy to give you credit for doing the catering when we use photos of the food and wine on our website or in other publications to promote our studio.

Let me know if you might be interested. Your food is really lovely, and you were our first thought. 

Best,

Nate"


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## fjrabon (Dec 8, 2012)

I'd totally say "this sounds great, because I have an event coming up to promote my photography business that I'd love for you guys to cater for free too!"

Dang, KmH beat me to it.


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## Steve5D (Dec 8, 2012)

I wonder if those who say not to do it because the client will always "expect it", or because the client's friends will expect the same deal, have ever actually done it.

If I do something special for one person, I am under no obligation to do it for anyone else. Period. No two clients are the same and, as such, each are dealt with differently. If someone thinks they're going to get a similar deal, just because I did it for someone else, they're likely going to be disappointed.

To the point of whether or not another photographer will be able to get a similar gig, that pays, doesn't matter to me. If someone isn't good enough to land a gig because I take a gig like this, that's _his _problem, not mine. Him working is not my concern. _My _concern is setting myself up for a possible return on my investment of doing a shoot like this. The gigs I got after shooting the poker run were rather well paying, and I simply wouldn't have gotten those jobs for the simple fact that I never would've met the people who ended up hiring me. 

I'm not saying that every photographer should agree to do these kinds of shoots every time they come up, but there's no reason to summarily dismiss such opportunities, especially if you're just starting out and getting your name out there. Treat it as an investment in your business. Look at it as advertising. Everyone in that room is a potential client, and they're a captive audience. 

Look at the big picture, and consider what the possible advantages are for you. If you don't feel that those possible advantages are worth the time, don't do it...


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## thetrue (Dec 8, 2012)

Well stated, Steve


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## Tony S (Dec 9, 2012)

I would do it.  Maybe even counter back for some other freebies as stuff on the day of the shoot itself is not really worth much to me, I'm working then.


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## sactown024 (Dec 11, 2012)

Wow thanks everyone!


I think I will do it but they are a well established restaurant with expensive plates so I don't think they are struggling for cash which bothers me the most.

I do need the exposure so I will try to squeeze a little more out of them and most definitely slap a big watermark on all photos.

The printer is a great idea, any suggestions on portable ones?


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## texkam (Dec 12, 2012)

> most definitely slap a big watermark on all photos.


Be prepared for a fight on this.


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## STIC (Dec 12, 2012)

[...


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## thetrue (Dec 12, 2012)

texkam said:


> > most definitely slap a big watermark on all photos.
> 
> 
> Be prepared for a fight on this.


"That's the dinner and drinks version...if you want watermark-free photos, we can work out a licensing deal"


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## sactown024 (Dec 12, 2012)

thetrue said:
			
		

> "That's the dinner and drinks version...if you want watermark-free photos, we can work out a licensing deal"



Correct


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## sactown024 (Dec 12, 2012)

I openly told them when I sent the original email asking if they would be interested in using a photo I took on their website, that I am looking for exposure, so I kind of walked right into "not a paid event" trap.


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## STIC (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## sactown024 (Dec 12, 2012)

here is my response, feel free to add or remove before I hit the send button.

"Hi Kate - 



The Scottish celebration sounds like an wonderful event and I would like to be a part of it. I know a lot of times photography is one of those things that people think can be "done without" but I can promise I will get quality shots of this event that will hopefully entice more  people to see the fun that was had at the restaurant, in return will have more people come  out and check it out year after year and bring in more sales for Waterhouse. 



That being said, I  have recently made a move to from Peterborough, NH to Somers, NY which  is a little over 3 hours of a drive. I understand you have spent an  abundance of money on bagpipers, musicians, poets etc... unfortunately  leaving photography up for bartering. I could really use the exposure  and I think this will be a great event to show the people what I am  capable of behind a camera, but I too am on a very restricted budget.  That being said, I am not asking Waterhouse to pay me for the event on  top of the already offered presence, food and drinks but i would ask to  be compensated for the gas mileage to and from Waterhouse. (375mi round trip, $.50/mi) which will be a fraction of the cost I would normally charge for such an event. 



If  you are comfortable with this, I would like to get together and discuss  how the night will pan out so I can decide what equipment I should  bring with me. Also I would like there to be a signed agreement to  protect both of us and state that the images taken will not be used for  printing (I have a contract and print release form in place already). If  prints are needed, I do require these to be ordered through my printing  lab, of course you will be more than welcome to use the images on your  website at no charge as long as the photos credited to me."


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## The_Traveler (Dec 12, 2012)

_I would leave out all the non-pro sounding stuff. No one cares, it's business to business here, make your case.
Ignore the food and drink, that doesn't count. Negotiate for your services and get this into a business arrangement.
Don't sound eager and willing to compromise.
Draw a line and let him see it.
Don't buy yourself a job.
Make it worthwhile for you in some way, even just as a 'job'.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________


*The Scottish celebration sounds like an wonderful event and, potentially, I would enjoy being a part of it. Unfortunately, **photography is one of those things that people think can be "done without" but quality shots of this event will allow more people to appreciate the level of this year's fun and will entice more people to come next year - providing, not only good memories, but building anticipations for future success. 

I can deliver those quality photos that you need.

As you said in your email, you are 'on a budget' and, although I would not usually donate my services to a for-profit entity, in this situation, the opportunity to showcase my work in your venue and network makes the situation acceptable on balance. Here is my counter proposal. I will shoot pictures of your party and provide your images for your web publicity at no cost beyond my mileage and expenses from my base in Somers, NY. (see details below) 

In return, I would expect that you will publicize my involvement as the official photographer, put my business name and contact on any handouts for that evening (in the form 'official event photography by XXXXX') and provide my business card as part of each guest's package or at the seating. 

**I have attached my standard contract with some estimated dates, times of service and schedule of deliverables.  Please note that payment of the anticipated expenses are due with your return of the signed contract in advance of the evening. Without the contract and payment the advance, I cannot reserve the time. 

Please note that that, under the terms of this contract, I retain all copyright to the images but you may use the photos without further charge for web and printed publicity for this event. I will provide a link to a gallery of the evening's shots and any reprints for your or client must be done through my printer.

I will give you a call on ____________ and we can discuss any questions that might arise in regards to timing of deliverables, requests for specific shots or any other topic that might affect what equipment I need to make available and any reimbursable expenses.
*
*Thanks you for thinking of me and I hope that we can make this a useful engagement for both of us,
*


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## The_Traveler (Dec 12, 2012)

You are essentially, 'sponsoring' part of this evening by not being paid, get something back.
Otherwise you are driving , etc. for nothing.

No expenses in advance, no work.
A contract is a contract, no work, no pictures without fulfillment.
And if he doesn't agree wholeheartedly to all the things that don't cost him $, like the publicity, etc, you are just being used and it won't be worthwhile.

This is basically a loser for future business (300 miles from home) but its a chance to emulate a pro engagement.


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## KmH (Dec 12, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> Wow thanks everyone!
> 
> 
> I think I will do it but they are a well established restaurant with expensive plates so I don't think they are struggling for cash which bothers me the most.


Restaurants run on very thin profit margins.

Well run dinner or full service restaurants usually have profit margins of between 2% and 5%, but well run fast food restaurants can have profit margins of 25%.


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## Steve5D (Dec 12, 2012)

I was unaware of the travel required. I thought this would be a "just headin' down the road a piece" shoot in your own town.

I wouldn't do it; not for what they're offering. Time and gas are way too valuable. If you're going to ask for them to help cover gas, at least go for what the IRS permits, which is (I believe) .55 per mile. I would also ask for them to provide accomodations, as driving three hours after working all day, and trust me on the, blows.

Yeah, there would have to be a little bit more on the "me" side of this equation for me to do this job...


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## KmH (Dec 12, 2012)

Yep! Being 3 hours away (6 hours round trip) is a game changer.


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## sactown024 (Dec 12, 2012)

They got the idea because when I originally sent in one of my photos I lived right down the road, almost neighbors but since then I have committed to move to NY.


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## STIC (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## Pallycow (Dec 12, 2012)

I only read page one and jumped to the last.  

I would do it in a heartbeat.  Some folks have the attitude "it's not worth my time", and it may well not be, depends on your business and your schedule.  

I do such things often, no better way to network, especially if you are just starting out.   I did it for local bars on halloween, and am doing it this weekend for a local band.

If you are not much into networking, you should be, and you will learn how powerful it cam be.  It's not always about what you can make that day, but what you can make in the future.  I shot a band for free a month ago and my traffic went up 800% due to sharing of the images with fans and I got 3 booked studio sessions within 2 weeks from people seeing my work.

Now and then it helps to do such things to get out and "meet the people", work the crowds, have fun, pass out cards and enjoy your craft.  If it is always about dollars and cents for the moment, it's not much fun.

Just my two cents.


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## KmH (Dec 12, 2012)

As of January 1, 2012 the IRS business standard mileage rate was set at $0.555 per mile.

Assuming an average speed of 60 mph for 6 hours that would be 360 miles round trip. 360 miles x $0.555 = $199.80 and doesn't cover any incidentals.

The IRS mileage rate is for the fixed and variable costs of operating an automobile, and does not account for a business person's time.


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## STIC (Dec 12, 2012)

...


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## Pallycow (Dec 12, 2012)

STIC said:


> Pallycow said:
> 
> 
> > I only read page one and jumped to the last.
> ...



Probly some of what I missed when I skimmed.  lol.  If it's not local then there is that to consider.


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## sactown024 (Dec 15, 2012)

I wrote then back asking them to compensate me for gas mileage... Never got a response, bunch of cheap bastards!


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## STIC (Dec 15, 2012)

...


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## pixmedic (Dec 15, 2012)

3 hours is a long way to travel to do a job for almost free unless you really REALLY want to do it. 
a shame they wont at least cover mileage for you. I thought that was pretty fair. 
maybe they will still get back to you on it.


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## Mr. Innuendo (Oct 30, 2015)

e.rose said:


> Would *I* do it for just that?  No.
> 
> Would I have done it for just that 2 years ago?  Yeah.
> 
> I agree that it depends on where you're at.



Excellent perspective.

I used to do a _lot _of trade work. These days? Not so much...


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## Mr. Innuendo (Oct 30, 2015)

sactown024 said:


> The problem is if I say no, they will just go ask Joe Shmo down the road with his new rebel to do it for free.



How is that a problem?

I look at it this way: A client who isn't interested in a fair exchange with me, be it for services or for money, is a client I don't want.


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## KmH (Oct 30, 2015)

A lot has changed since 2012 when this thread was last active.


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## desertrattm2r12 (Dec 12, 2015)

Perhaps you are aware that thanks to the overhunting by the Scots that the Wild Haggis is swiftly becoming an endangered species in the Highlands. There's only about 200 pf these animals left in the wild.


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## BananaRepublic (Dec 13, 2015)

Take a few photos then start throwing  back the most expensive scotch they have


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