# looking for advice on sync speed on strobes



## Mashburn (Aug 3, 2014)

I am looking at alien bees 400, 800, 1600. I get the watts and etc. but with sync speed I am unsure on. Has anyone found a reason to sync their speeds at 1/600 or higher?

I know it is a stupid question. but I want to make sure I get what I am needing. I will be getting these mostly for weddings (outside and inside). Somtimes I'll throw it in on light painting, but that doesn't matter in speed.


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## WayneF (Aug 3, 2014)

Mashburn said:


> I am looking at alien bees 400, 800, 1600. I get the watts and etc. but with sync speed I am unsure on. Has anyone found a reason to sync their speeds at 1/600 or higher?




I would say no.   The B800 speed is already faster, t.1 is 1/550 to  1/1100 second.  If you wanted even faster, you could get the Einstein  instead.

But in a studio situation, of ISO 100, f/8, 1/200 second  sync speed, this is enough to even keep out the modeling lights (orange in color)..  The picture is pretty much black if the sync is removed so the flash does  not fire (even under the modeling lights).


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## tirediron (Aug 3, 2014)

I think there's some confusion here.  It sounds like two different things are being discussed.  Sync speed and flash duration.  Sync speed is the is the maximum speed at which you can synchronize a strobe (with the exception of manufacturers speedlights and certain other units capable of high-speed synchronization) with your camera because it's the highest shutter speed at which the shutter is completely open.  At speeds above sync speed one curtain is already starting to close before the other is fully open.  

Flash duration is the amount of time that the strobe's light actually illuminates, anywhere from 1/500 of a second to 1/10,000 of a second depending on make and power output.  

You can shoot above sync speed with ABs, however you will see a black band obscuring part of the image which will get wider as the shutter speed is increased.  There is generally no reason to shoot above sync speed indoors, however when shooting outside, it is sometimes desirable to increase the shutter speed to reduce the amount of ambient light affecting the image.  Flash duration on the other hand is what gives you the "motion freezing" ability; for instance if you want to freeze motion on a hummingbird's wings using flash/strobed light, you will need a light which has a duration of 1/2500 of a second or less.  Flash duration is a fixed value, for a given power level.  

In short:  It can be desirable to use shutter speeds above your camera's sync speed when working with strobed light, but unless you have the correct lights you can't do it.


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## tirediron (Aug 3, 2014)

WayneF said:


> ... in a studio situation, of ISO 100, f/8, 1/200 second  sync speed, this is enough to even keep out the modeling lights (orange in color)..


Every lighting system of which I am aware turns off the modelling light before the strobe is fired.  



WayneF said:


> ...The picture is pretty much black if the sync is removed so the flash does  not fire (even under the modeling lights).


Not really sure what you mean here, can you expand on this?


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## Village Idiot (Aug 4, 2014)

WayneF said:


> I would say no.   The B800 speed is already faster, t.1 is 1/550 to  1/1100 second.  If you wanted even faster, you could get the Einstein  instead.
> 
> But in a studio situation, of ISO 100, f/8, 1/200 second  sync speed, this is enough to even keep out the modeling lights (orange in color)..  The picture is pretty much black if the sync is removed so the flash does  not fire (even under the modeling lights).



I would say yes. The sync speed, which has to do with how fast of a shutter speed you can use vs. when you start seeing the black band across the bottom of the photo frame, is something that photographers constantly try and push the limit of. If this were never an issue, companies like Pocket Wizard, Radio Popper, and Others wouldn't have triggers that attempt to alter the x sync to let you get a higher shutter speed. A flash duration may be fast enough to stop action, but if your x sync is only 1/200 and you're shooting outside in harsh light, you're either going to have to use a very narrow aperture or use an ND filter, both of which may have negative affects on your photo vs. what you're going for. Even some of the most expensive ND filters will leave a magenta hue on your image, it's just the nature of the beast.

And it was stated above about the modeling light not being active at the time of the flash. It's been a while since I've read it, but something like Light Science and Magic may have a portion about basic flash operation that could help you out there.


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## studio460 (Aug 4, 2014)

Check the t=0.5 speeds on the Buff website. The B400/B800 have very short flash durations, and aren't suitable for shooting above x-sync. The 1600 has the longest t=0.5 duration (longer is better), but only at the lowest power. Using a PocketWizard Flex TT1 and a TT5 with the 1600 at 1/32nd power would give you a t=0.5 value of 1/900th (this value usually varies with output power). You would be much better off with the Einstein E640 + PowerMC2 receiver, which has a t=0.5 value of 1/588th (plus pre-set PocketWizard settings in firmware). I have a Speedotron Force 10 with a t=0.5 value of 1/850th [unusual, in that it's constant at all power levels on the Speedotron units], and I can sync up to about 1/2,000th without significant curtain-shadow.


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## studio460 (Aug 4, 2014)

Mashburn said:


> Has anyone found a reason to sync their speeds at 1/600 or higher? . . . I will be getting these mostly for weddings (outside and inside).



There are two reasons you'd want to sync at higher than your camera's x-sync (typically, 1/250th):

1. To shoot at wide apertures in high ambient light (e.g., daylight exteriors).
2. To reduce your ambient exposure (e.g., daylight exteriors).

Note that when shooting above x-sync, there's a loss of recorded flash output of anywhere between 1-2 stops. Here's an example using a PocketWizard Flex TT1 transmitter on a Nikon D800E, and a Flex TT5, triggering a Speedotron Force 10 monolight (keying from the left through a 54" x 72" softbox) at 1/1,250th:






Nikon D800E/TT1 + Sigma 150mm f/2.8 OS + Speedotron Force 10/TT5.
ISO: 100; f/5.6 @ 1/1,250th [un-cropped].


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## hulk2012 (Aug 4, 2014)

studio460 said:


> Mashburn said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone found a reason to sync their speeds at 1/600 or higher? . . . I will be getting these mostly for weddings (outside and inside).
> ...



The secret here is to close the aperture to 5.6 to darken the background and to keep it mellow the same time is to get to subject quite close bearing in mind the subject needs to be quite away from the background we want to melt


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## Village Idiot (Aug 5, 2014)

The Pocket Wizard's Hyper Sync is dependent on the camera you're using as well. Some cameras just won't be able to push the speeds you want. My 5D MKII is happy if it gets 1/320 on a PW set up for Hyper Sync.



hulk2012 said:


> The secret is the 1/1250 shutter speed with the flash to darken the background. The f/5.6 isn't that dark and still allows for a blurred background with a longer lens without too much separation. The shutter speed kills the ambient without affecting the Flash exposure.


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## Braineack (Aug 5, 2014)

yeah, two ways to skin the cat...


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## Village Idiot (Aug 5, 2014)

Braineack said:


> yeah, two ways to skin the cat...



Except if you try and skin that cat with just adjusting the aperture to darken the background, you end up having to use more flash power, which you either may not have seeing as how he's shooting on a beach in daylight, or you can add more light to the scene over all. That's why everyone wants to be able to cheat their x sync when shooting with flash in daylight.


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## Braineack (Aug 5, 2014)

Yes, you will. 

But he didn't want to use aperture to kill ambient, the point was he wanted to use f/2.8 while in bright sunlight for a particular effect, and used shutter speed to kill the ambient with the flash to expose the subject.

5.6 would have got him to 1/500 which is still above the sync speed of many bodies/setups.

and like you said, since you closed up the aperture, you'd have to move the model in order to get the DOF effect you desired in the first place.


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## hulk2012 (Aug 5, 2014)

Braineack said:


> Yes, you will.
> 
> But he didn't want to use aperture to kill ambient, the point was he wanted to use f/2.8 while in bright sunlight for a particular effect, and used shutter speed to kill the ambient with the flash to expose the subject.
> 
> ...



Exactly right and for this you need HSS which I love personally


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## Village Idiot (Aug 6, 2014)

hulk2012 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you will.
> ...



Or a version of Pocket Wizard's Hyper Sync or just some way to "trick" your x sync. HSS is where a flash fires multiple times to cover the entire time the shutter is open. This is inefficient and unless they've came out with some new studio type lights, only works with TTL enabled speed lights. The above photo was shot with Speedotron lights, which do not have the ability to use an HSS type flash.


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## Mashburn (Aug 7, 2014)

I'm now saying forget the alien bees. I'm looking more into Norman ML400. 

Thanks everyone for helping me understand this better. I would have been upset shooting 1/64 power just to get 1/600 shorter speed. 

Now I just need to figure out how to do rear flash on slow slow speeds. I'm assuming a pocket wizard of some sort.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 7, 2014)

Try this:

2nd Curtain Sync on 5D II/III Bodies - Solved !: Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Certain PWs will do it.


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