# Lessons Forgotten (???) From the 1918 Pandemic



## K9Kirk (Apr 22, 2020)

I will simply post this most interesting article on the pandemic of 1918 and let everyone decide for themselves if they think that the "already proven" and correct course of action in a pandemic should be ignored and ask themselves why it has been ignored throughout this Covid-19 pandemic. This truly sickens me what's going on.

Coronavirus and the Sun: a Lesson from the 1918 Influenza Pandemic


----------



## zombiesniper (Apr 22, 2020)

These lessons haven't been forgotten by those of us in the CBRN (Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear) community or the medical field.

Most of it boils down to the fact that in todays society a great number of people THINK they know better. Imagine telling someone today that fresh air and sun will help. Even though UV light is a proven anti viral treatment, people would rather believe the crap that their friend shared on InstaSnapFace.

The open air part for some countries would kill more than it would have helped in the last couple of months. Yes the air and sun would help but -30 would counteract any benefit. Now that we're into warmer weather (or if you live in a moderate climate) I agree  that outdoor treatments should be looked into.
This of course will bring out the anti lockdown crowd out with "Why can the sick go out and I can't?" type of whining.

In short. Today you can't please anyone. I personally say let the whiners out....however if they infect someone, charge them with murder.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Apr 22, 2020)

Right at the top it says 'anyone' can publish on Medium, so I'd take it with a big grain of salt. Not that some fresh air and sunshine might not be a bad idea for people in general (except for allergy season! lol along with the middle of winter depending on where you live). But every so often in the news there's a story about a study, which is only one study; it's necessary to look at the body of research. 

This guy believes in this, so of course used citations to articles that support it. He did cite professional journal articles so there may be something to it, but I doubt it's the be all. It wouldn't have been practical everywhere in March or even April in cold and rain, etc. 

My mom said it reminded her of polio, and they had to keep kids out of public swimming pools, etc. It wasn't of course this restrictive. But once there was a vaccine that was the end of it. Now we've seen childhood diseases that were eradicated (or nearly completely) return, since there have been people not getting their kids vaccinated because of misinformation online. I hope once there's a vaccine for this that everyone will get one.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Apr 22, 2020)

And... of course I got curious, and can't find who's doing that site or where they are. I wondered because of words spelled with an s instead of a z. All I could find was California (and mention of San Francisco) and European Union (address in Ireland) so I don't know about the rest of us! lol

No address, no names... to be a registered business they have to have a street address. When they make it this hard to find I have to wonder. And a legit publication pays writers, this one seems to be another of many that will take whatever someone types on a keyboard. 

Sorry but I've just seen this type website too often to find them reliable or legit.


----------



## Derrel (Apr 22, 2020)

In the footnotes, the author cites himself, and an article  he authored in 1997.


----------



## Jeff15 (Apr 22, 2020)

Don't forget
The Black Death, also known as the Pestilence and the Plague, was the most fatal pandemic recorded in human history, resulting in the deaths of up to 75–200 million people in Eurasia and North Africa, peaking in Europe from 1347 to 1351


----------



## terri (Apr 22, 2020)

Folks, the moderators aren't here to monitor discussions on the Covid-19 pandemic.  That said, let's not let TPF turn into a site where questionable or unproven statements are made about it.  Everything can turn up on Internet searches.   

I agree with the others that articles such as the one linked to here have about zero credibility.   Please, let's be careful with the information we share.  

Thanks!


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 22, 2020)

My apologies for that, I honestly did not see that at the top of the page but I did research Doctor Richard Hobday and he is a real person and doctor. He can be found easily on the internet (as mentioned) along with much more of the same information from other credible sources that 'back up' the article, it's not bs, a little quick research will tell you that. My job in the military was 54 E, NBC (Nuclear Biological Chemical) Specialist and everything in that article makes perfect sense and that's why I put it up. I figured everyone would see the logic in it also but I was wrong.


----------



## Derrel (Apr 22, 2020)

Kind of strange that the man does not use the title of Doctor in his writings about a health-related topic.


----------



## Derrel (Apr 22, 2020)




----------



## otherprof (Apr 23, 2020)

K9Kirk said:


> I will simply post this most interesting article on the pandemic of 1918 and let everyone decide for themselves if they think that the "already proven" and correct course of action in a pandemic should be ignored and ask themselves why it has been ignored throughout this Covid-19 pandemic. This truly sickens me what's going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The author is a “certified engineer “ with no medical credentials . The publisher of his book is Findhorn Press. They publish self-help books, cards, CD’s, spiritual guides, and books on alternative medicine. There is no peer review for his work. Here is a description of their business.




By the way, I got a call from a friend whose house is being rebuilt after a fire.  Another friend, an engineer, told him he thought the material the contractor was using for walls on the enclosed porch was not right because of moisture issues. He wanted to know what I thought. I told him it was interesting that he wanted a second opinion about types of Sheetrock from a philosopher. Somehow this seems very relevant.





Dr


----------



## K9Kirk (Apr 23, 2020)

Ok, I'm not arguing the guys legitimacy, my whole point was about what information he put out and it is legit, _*it's has been documented*_ and if anyone thinks it's not all they need do is search the web but I'm not doing it for anyone, not falling for that trap, I learned my lesson, lol. I'm done here, thanks for the replies.


----------



## vintagesnaps (May 15, 2020)

He said sunlight can heal breast cancer, heart disease, ms, etc.?? If he said that I wouldn't go by what this guy says.


----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)

vintagesnaps said:


> He said sunlight can heal breast cancer, heart disease, ms, etc.?? If he said that I wouldn't go by what this guy says.



But, but, but...it's on the internet! According to this certified engineer,  sunlight can also ,_prevent_ those maladies....the dude wrote a book about it!

Doing a Google search and finding something is not proving anything...except that a claim has been published. A good example is the idea that in the late 18th century the pit bull terrier was a "nanny dog"in the UK, comonly placed with children to guard over them. This spurious claim was first written by the first importer of the breed to the United States back in 1973. She published a BS article... and her false claim has gained a lot of traction since 1973. The Pitbull Nutters website has a complete documentation on the way deliberate falsehoods have been published by Pitbull aficionados and breeders... if you take a falsehood and repeat it often enough, it will soon become a "truth", easily proven by a web search.


----------



## K9Kirk (May 15, 2020)

Natural light, fresh air could keep coronavirus out of workplaces, scientists suggest
https://msystems.asm.org/content/5/2/e00245-20

This is a section from the msystems article: (22). Since most humans spend >90% of their daily lives inside the BE, it is essential to understand the potential transmission dynamics of COVID-19 within the BE ecosystem and the human behavior, spatial dynamics, and building operational factors that potentially promote and mitigate the spread and transmission of COVID-19.

If you still want to believe what you wish that's your right. Everyone be well.


----------



## Soocom1 (May 15, 2020)

I still think it all lies in green chilie...


----------



## Jeff15 (May 15, 2020)

Beer works for me..............


----------



## pendennis (May 15, 2020)

Dr. Hobday isn't the only one who advocates warm weather and sun as a preventive.  Journalist/Author Matt Ridley has advocated the same treatment.  Ridley has written a number of books on scientific subjects.  His best (IMHO) is "The Evolution of Everything:  How New Ideas Emerge".

Author John M. Barry, in his book "The Great Influenza..." details the spread of the influenza pandemic in 1918, and the fight waged by Dr. William Welch and his colleagues.  The book tells of  the very conditions replete in Army camps, ships, and crowded urban areas for spreading the virus.

Viruses do well in dark, wet, warm conditions (nasal and bronchial passages).  Sunshine and warmth are the enemy, as is anything which damages the virus' coating.  One of the treatments being tested is an endo-trachial tube using LCD UV radiation to kill viruses in the trachea, bronchial tubes, and upper lobes of the lung.


----------



## Soocom1 (May 15, 2020)

So in all seriousness New Mexico has quite the little crudmunion going on.

The above mentioned aspects of virus killing et-al involves lots of UV light and fresh air.
To whit. New Mexico has A HELLUVA LOT OF!

Now we also have green chili to whit I joke about, but consider the capsaicin aspect and the vitamin c and d levels involved.

Most of NM is well above 4000ft. in elevation (1219 meters above sea level) and a goodly portion of that above 5500 ft.
So we have ALOT of UV light and the index is way above most other areas. 

BUT!!!!!!!  (and i am assuming that the reporting is ligit and accurate) the Navajo Nation is getting HAMMERED by this bug!   Why?

Those not familiar with the Nation:
Navajo Nation - Wikipedia

There is a section on the Geography and then a section specifically on COVID 19. 

Each time I read it my heart breaks. The numbers keep changing.

But also understand that much of the nation though filled with iPhones and internet, live mostly in 19th century conditions.

So though I agree partially with the synopsys of the article initially, the Nation poo poos some of the claims *IMO *because there is something else to this that isn't jiving with current knowledge.


----------



## pendennis (May 15, 2020)

vintagesnaps said:


> ...
> My mom said it reminded her of polio, and they had to keep kids out of public swimming pools, etc. It wasn't of course this restrictive. But once there was a vaccine that was the end of it. Now we've seen childhood diseases that were eradicated (or nearly completely) return, since there have been people not getting their kids vaccinated because of misinformation online. I hope once there's a vaccine for this that everyone will get one.



I was five years old in 1952, probably the last great summer outbreak of polio.  I contracted a mild case, but my aunt (15 at the time), was completely devastated, becoming a quadriplegic, and having to live that way, using iron lungs, chest respirators, and finally tracheal respirators.  She lasted for 45 years in that condition.  She was a "country girl" visiting us in the summer that year, and she contracted polio about two weeks after visiting us when I had my case (mid-August).

The reasons for the virus have never been isolated to what would be related to "Patient Zero" in a particular outbreak.  Swimming pools were suspect, as were sand boxes, etc.  However, there seems to be some favorability in "herd immunity".  In the early-t0-mid 20th Century, the U.S. was in the midst of the "Great Migration" from a rural economy, to an industrial economy.  Folks moved to cities where people may have developed natural immunity; at least that's a theory.

There are also folks out there who believe that polio would have died out regardless the Salk and Sabin vaccines.  However, I know of no "boomers" who ever regretted taking the shots or the sugar cubes.


----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)




----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)

Peer review counts for a lot. A hell of a lot. Anyone can publish these days. Within a few minutes one can find almost any topic on a search engine or two or even three. The fact that something has been published means basically nothing. What really means a lot is peer review.

Remember, it was not that long ago that some crackpot scientist published an article that put forth the idea that vaccines lead to autism. Even though the article was repudiated, the damage was done. His BS postulations swayed a lot of people.

If you stop and think about it for even a few minutes, it might not be sunlight so much as getting Outdoors and keeping yourself away from other people. But this engineer who wrote a book about the health benefits of sunlight is way off his rocker I think in terms of saying that sunlight can prevent osteoporosis, heart disease, breast cancer, and other medical maladies. I think that is wishful thinking, and his writing does not make a distinction between correlation and causality, which is really what this BS is about people who work in high-density indoor office environments art at Great risk for the spread of all sorts of communicable diseases feed people who are Outdoors, alone, and well-separated from others are at less risk. Once again we need to look at correlation and not conclude that sunlight is a preventative measure on its own. 

About 20 years ago I bought a book about the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, 1919, and 1920. Antibiotics had not been invented then, and many people thought that the disease was caused by bad wheat. I do not think that the lessons that we learn from the Spanish Flu pandemic has all that much to take away from today. Social distancing and our knowledge of what a virus is and how to kill a virus is something that was simply unknown back in the 19-teens.

If you want to do a little bit of research about a lesson that was not retained,  I encourage you to look at what happened in the city of San Francisco once the first wave of the flu subsided. People flocked to the streets, and to large sporting events... being outdoors but in close contact with many people caused a massive flare-up in the Spanish Flu within the city of San Francisco and the surrounding communities. Within a matter of a few weeks San Francisco was the nation's hot spot for flu deaths.


----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)

K9Kirk said:


> Natural light, fresh air could keep coronavirus out of workplaces, scientists suggest
> https://msystems.asm.org/content/5/2/e00245-20


No.No,no; Not scientists plural, but rather _ one_scientist, and he just makes a suggestion. It is also reported by Fox News , which is not  a reputable source  in my opinion and in the opinion of hundreds of thousands of other people who are knowledgeable about the field of Journalism.

The headline has a flawed, untrue claim in it, the idea that "scientists", as a group, have looked at this idea and proved it, is false. These are the ruminations of _one_ person who calls himself a scientist. It takes more than one crackpot practitioner to convince me or any other well-read person.

His "suggestion" is not proven, and it is similar to any claim or suggestion made by one, single individual without peer review. I might suggest something, but if 1,000 professionals within a field agree or have proof that is something else.

And once again, something reported on the web, from Fox News, is not exactly what I would call a proven anything. A couple of weeks ago two doc in a box ( urgent care clinic) doctors from California put out a bullshit video about how widespread the coronavirus was in their surrounding Community. Within 3 days their wild claims had been widely discredited by medical professionals from across the world.


----------



## Soocom1 (May 15, 2020)

My opinion and my *OPINION ALONE!!!!! 
*

The sunlight (actually UV light) has merit to it. 
Always has. 
Books and written stories of times past long before the days of a medical system talked long and hard of the benefits of sun and open air. *
*Vitruvius  wrote in the Ten Books of Architecture (2000 years ago) that city and population planning revolved around the working with the natural elements. 
This included understanding wind patterns, north-south sun exposure, east-west wind patterns, etc.  
The long and short of it was that he was planning cities around the idea of working WITH nature rather than conquering it. 
The end result was as it was recorded successful settlements. 
The long and short is this.  We still have much to learn of the world and its ills and wills. This will pass and in several years will be.."do you remember when.."

The only thing that I think is the larger take away is that the pattern of these events follow similar patterns and in our ignorance and arrogance keep forgetting to respect nature.


----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)

Crystals. Pyramid power. Sage. Smudging.
Incense. Mantras.Secret societies. Bloodletting. Virgin Sacrifices. Animal Sacrifices. Crosses. Silver bullets. Wooden stakes. All were/are hailed as cures and remedies for a number of bad things.


----------



## Derrel (May 15, 2020)

In this age of social media and the internet, almost anyone can publish an article or book and within a year, establish a number of on-line sites which "prove" the validity of their claim(s).

Let's use the often-repeated claim that in the late 19th century, the pitbull dog breed was widely considered to be a nanny dog in the United Kingdom and in Europe. If you do about 10 minutes' worth of online research you will find dozens and dozens of quotes and a couple of photographs showing small children posing with pitbull dogs from the 1890s era. The claim sounds good, especially when it is backed up with  photographic evidence from the time. However the actual fact is demonstrated in this photo from the modern era



Every year since 1973, more people in North America have been killed by pitbull dogs than by bear attacks....this includes Canada, the USA, and Mexico. The breed is estimated to account for fewer than 17 percent of all dogs in the USA, and yet it is consistently number one in terms of death of people, livestock, poultry and waterfowl, and other dogs and pets. The breed was bred for fighting, and it excells at killing. And yet if you go online you will find pitbull owners talking about how wonderful their dogs are. About a month ago a friend of mine had her 25 year old daughter bit in the face by her 27 year old daughter's pitbull dog, which had bitten three other people before this tragedy occurred. And yet online you can find all sorts of articles that "prove" that it is "not the dog breed" but rather the "people that own the dogs". I would have to say the owner of this pitbull that bit my friend's 25 year old daughter (in the face!,) is a wonderful young woman.


----------



## SquarePeg (May 15, 2020)

My nana always advocated the sunlight theory - she called it “Irish penicillin”.   While I think fresh air and sunshine are good for whatever ails you, I don’t think they’re a cure for anything serious.  

I didn’t read the article, just the comments.  Medium “articles” get a lot of play in social media on both sides of many issues  I won’t click to their site.  Misleading titles, unvetted sources, bad bad writing in many cases...


----------



## limr (May 15, 2020)

So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is. 

And yet, if someone spent a lot of time sitting in the sun and then found that they were feeling better, they might then believe that it's the sunlight itself that is healing the ailments, even though it isn't. It may be one way to address the deficiency, but there are other sources of Vitamin D. 

It's like Derrel said - correlation is not causation. The observable action might point to sunlight when in reality it's actually something else that is driving the cure to the disease. 

It's like how people think that they catch colds in the winter because of cold temperatures or wet hair, when it actually has to do with people spending more time indoors in dry air, which creates perfect conditions in people's nasal passages for virus or bacteria, and being in closer proximity to other people for prolonged spans of time, which increases exposure by a LOT.


----------



## tirediron (May 15, 2020)

limr said:


> So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is.
> 
> And yet, if someone spent a lot of time sitting in the sun and then found that they were feeling better, they might then believe that it's the sunlight itself that is healing the ailments, even though it isn't. It may be one way to address the deficiency, but there are other sources of Vitamin D...


But, if something provides relief from a malady, is that not a cure?  Granted, it is the increased Vitamin D which is correcting the condition(s), but if the person weren't sitting in the sunlight, and thereby increasing their Vitamin D levels, they would still have the conditions...  I think it's reasonable (and accurate) to say that in your example, the sunlight is causing the cure.  Of course there are other ways to increase your Vitamin D, but does methodology matter?


----------



## limr (May 15, 2020)

tirediron said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is.
> ...



Yes, it does matter. Sunlight itself is not the cure. It's one of the things that is delivering the actual cure. It's like saying the syringe is the cure instead of the medicine inside. It's a delivery mechanism, not the medicine itself.


----------



## K9Kirk (May 16, 2020)

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything, just putting the info out there to give people something to think about other than the same rhetoric that mainstream media spews over and over and over from the same old failed virus model that hasn't gotten the numbers right since the beginning of this three ring, politically charged circus.


----------



## pendennis (May 16, 2020)

Derrel said:


> K9Kirk said:
> 
> 
> > Natural light, fresh air could keep coronavirus out of workplaces, scientists suggest
> ...



One of the problems in 1918 was suppression of information by the warring nations.  And the primary cause of the spread was the "closed air circulation" of the era.  Buildings, especially barracks and military facilities were notoriously suffocating; along with troop travel accommodations, which lent itself to the spread.

The Spanish flu was much more virulent than COVID-19.  From onset of symptoms, to death, was measured in hours at times.

Even today, there's a body of thought that believes influenza virus was not started in one county in SW Kansas.


----------



## tirediron (May 16, 2020)

limr said:


> Yes, it does matter. Sunlight itself is not the cure. It's one of the things that is delivering the actual cure. It's like saying the syringe is the cure instead of the medicine inside. It's a delivery mechanism, not the medicine itself.


Okay, fair enough, but if we take this a step further then, what is the medicine?  Cambridge offers this definition:  "_Medicine (noun) A substance taken into the body in treating an illness_."

If I have a headache and relieve it by chewing on willow bark, is it fair to say that the willow bark is the medicine, or is it only the small amount of salicin contained within the bark and the remainder is delivery medium?  Since the human body utilizes a metabolic process to convert UV light to Vitamin D, we already have everything within our body [under normal circumstances] to correct the vitamin deficiency _*except the sunlight!  *_As that is the thing which is being introduced, I would submit to you that it is indeed the medicine.


----------



## limr (May 16, 2020)

tirediron said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it does matter. Sunlight itself is not the cure. It's one of the things that is delivering the actual cure. It's like saying the syringe is the cure instead of the medicine inside. It's a delivery mechanism, not the medicine itself.
> ...



And I disagree. Take away the sunlight and there are still plenty of other mechanisms for addressing the deficiency - direct supplementation, diet, addressing other deficiencies such as Vitamin K that affects absorption of Vitamin D. The sunlight is not required. Ask me how I know.

Actually, don't ask me. I see nothing gained by continuing a discussion on meaningless semantics, so I'll be on my way.


----------



## weepete (May 16, 2020)

The trouble is the author hasn't accounted for confounding factors and has made a bit of a leap. His claims are spurious and as limr points out he's confusing correlation with causeation. If you read the papers he's had published in reputable journals (often as a co-author) it actually points out increased hygene standards (like washing hands between examining patients) means they can't conclude with any certainty that sunlight actually has the effect they are suggesting. 

There's debate currently over how much of a role vitamin D plays in recovery from illness and though it seems to have some effect though mostly anecdotal. 

One major issue with Covid-19 is that patients requiring hospital admission tend to need oxygen, c-pat or ventilated which is conviently not addressed.


----------



## K9Kirk (May 17, 2020)

I think this got over analyzed. What I got out of it was they were trying to make the point that people felt better when they got some some sunlight and fresh air. Everyone talks about how depressing the winter months can be without good sunlight and dark clouds and the darkness in those tents probably had the same effect on them if not more so than people living a normal life and able to walk around and go outside and do things and some fresh air probably felt good as well. Who hasn't ever been in a stuffy room for a long period of time and stepped outside afterwards to say, ahhh, nice fresh air. It may not be scientifically proven but we all have experienced these things and know sunlight and fresh air to make us feel better, right? That was my main point. Not whether sun itself actually gives you vitamin D or anything else that was brought up. Everyone be well.


----------

