# White lines across film



## Bolle

Hi there, I'm new to photography and have bought my first ever camera- a Minolta x570. The first roll of film came out pretty well, but a lot of the photos have a white line through them. Is this something on the film or to do with the way the camera winds on the film? I noticed when I took the film out the back panel was out of line, could this be the problem?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## LaFoto

It could be a scratch that put itself onto your film mechanically... but hey, I'm only guessing here.
Welcome to ThePhotoForum, all the same!!!


----------



## PJL

Do you have an example?  It might be a mechanical scratch.  If it's more like a streak in some of the pictures, it could be a light leak.  The camera could need a CLA treatment (cleaning, lubricating, adjustment), which in not unusual for older cameras, especially if they've been used rather than just sitting in a closet.


----------



## Early

Bolle said:


> Hi there, I'm new to photography and have bought my first ever camera- a Minolta x570. The first roll of film came out pretty well, but a lot of the photos have a white line through them. Is this something on the film or to do with the way the camera winds on the film? I noticed when I took the film out the back panel was out of line, could this be the problem?
> 
> Thanks for your help.


B&W film, or color?  When you say back panel, are you talking about the plate that holds the film flat, or the door itself?

The first thing you have to do is check the negatives.  If it's b&w and showing a white line through the print, then there would be a black line through the negatives.


----------



## Mike_E

Welcome.  

You should also check to see if the foam around the back of the camera is in good shape.  You could have light leaking from there.


----------



## usayit

LaFoto said:


> It could be a scratch that put itself onto your film mechanically... but hey, I'm only guessing here.
> Welcome to ThePhotoForum, all the same!!!



Wouldn't a scratch in the film's substrate result in a black line on print?  

My guess is a light leak


----------



## Josh66

usayit said:


> LaFoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> It could be a scratch that put itself onto your film mechanically... but hey, I'm only guessing here.
> Welcome to ThePhotoForum, all the same!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't a scratch in the film's substrate result in a black line on print?
> 
> My guess is a light leak
Click to expand...


Scratches show up as white lines for me.  Most dust does too.  (I try to make sure it's dust free before I scan, but you can never get it all...)

Scratched film:




If you look at the big version, you can see it pretty clearly...


----------



## Flash Harry

Light leaks tend not to make a line as such, it would be more helpful if an example was posted, however dust will give white spots and scratches/creases in film make lines, sometimes these scratches are from the processing equipment too, cheap snappysnaps overused and badly maintained processors have ruined many good shots for many people a black line would be from a scratch, especially a deep into the emulsion scratch, if I were you I'd inspect the negs, if theyre kinked/creased/scratched in uniformly similar positions on the negs I'd be either having the camera looked at thoroughly/buying a new model/changing who processes my negs. H

ps. Before all you digital people start about the colour of scratches, I'm coming from a darkroom print in my evaluation here, not a scan


----------



## Steve01

*Early* asked if the scratch shows on the negatives.
I'd like to know too. 

Dirt on the pressure plate will put a uniform scratch across the negatives.


----------



## Derrel

Film can be scratched any number of places. Advancing through the cartridge's felt lips. At the pressure plate, or at the film gate aperture area. When being rewound, from either the felt lips, the pressure plate, or the aperture gate area. It can be scratched in the roller transport processing machine, or as it comes out of that machine...it can be scratched AS it is loading in the printer,but before the frames are printed...it can be scratched as it is being sleeved...you name it, film can be scratched at any place along the line...

Film cartridges and cassettes that rattle around in a woman's purse, or in a car's change tray or back seat can pick up all sorts of lint and grit, over as long as a month or more...those rolls of film are opened, loaded and some of that junk gets in to the roller transport processing machine, and into the solutions...Labs that devellop "consumer" film from people who bring it in loose, and fish it out of their purses,pockets,and backpacks will usually give you back scratched negatives,more often than not.

"Dip and dunk" processing is expensive and hard to find these days, but worth it. Roller transport developing usually, well, let's say "often" means the chances of scratches on the negs are pretty high.


----------



## Josh66

My camera is causing a scratch on pretty much every roll...  I can't figure out what's doing it, but it's in the same place every time, so it has to be the camera.  Sometimes it's not even there, other times it's really bad.

If it's bad enough, yeah - you can see it on the negative.  A scratch like the one I posted above would be very hard to see though.


----------



## Derrel

O|||||||O said:


> My camera is causing a scratch on pretty much every roll...  I can't figure out what's doing it, but it's in the same place every time, so it has to be the camera.  Sometimes it's not even there, other times it's really bad.
> 
> If it's bad enough, yeah - you can see it on the negative.  A scratch like the one I posted above would be very hard to see though.



Well, a film camera is a lot less complicated than a o||||||o, dude, so open the back and look around...is there a little pimple-like raised spot on the edges of the film aperture or "gate"????? Is there some adhesive on the pressure plate, you know the pressure plate on the back of the camera?

Is the pressure plate flat? And clean? Or does it have an impact dent in it?

Josh, dude...the cause of the scratch ought to be able to be found by Mr. Watson, without Sherlock Holmes's help... Open 'er up, have a look around..find the raised spot...correct the problem...


----------



## Josh66

I've looked everywhere (since I know where the scratch is, it's easy to know where to look), but I still can't find anything...

I was thinking it might be happening during rewind, so I tried silent rewind (very slow) and high speed rewind.  Scratches both times.  I can't find a burr or speck of dirt anywhere.

It must be inside where the film coils up or something.  Somewhere that I can't see.

Not sure if I really want to start taking the camera apart...

edit
I still have about 15 frames left on the roll that's in there.  I'll probably finish that off today - I'll check it out again once it's empty.


----------



## Derrel

And the scratch occurs "every time", as in every,single,stinkin' time??? Or is it as you also said, "sometimes it's not there". Are you using bulk film in reloadable,snap-top cartridges, or fresh rolls of factory film?

Can you put a scratched film strip in,align it with the film guide rails, and determine where the scratch is located,and then use some reasoning power to locate the potential source of the scratching? What kind of camera are we talking about?


----------



## Petraio Prime

Without an example it's impossible to tell.


----------



## Helen B

Can you tell which side the scratch is on?

If you have a spare roll of unused film you could try a step-by-step scratch test. You are looking for scratches on the undeveloped film by looking along the surface of the film with light reflecting off it (end of film held to your eye, film held out towards light). Do the actions one stage at a time - wind it on one frame at a time onto the take-up spool. Carefully remove it. Check for the scratch. Put it back onto the take-up spool. Rewind. Remove from cassette through the end. Check again. This is a version of the standard scratch test used with movie cameras.

Good luck,
Helen


----------



## Josh66

It's on every roll, but it skips some frames.  It's there every time, but inconsistently.  Sometimes it's a really hard scratch, sometimes it's faint, and sometimes it's not even there.

It's a 1N RS.  I've tried just what you're saying - line the film up with the guide rails and look where the scratch is.  There is a metal *thing* thats edge looks to be in the right spot (I can't think of what it's called right now, and I can't open the camera just yet.), but it is smooth and clean.  No sharp edges anywhere on it.


Hmm...  I was trying to see if I had a picture of it...  I found this - not what I'm talking about, but it aslo looks to be in the right place.





See that thing on the left edge of the frame - where the film cartridge would go?  That metal clip thing (looks like it just puts pressure on the cartridge). - See the little edge sticking out?  That's right about where the scratch would be.  I don't think that comes close to touching the film though...  I'll check it out when it's empty.

Just to make sure I'm looking in the right area ... the image on the film plane is upside down, right?  The top of the image looking through the viewfinder is the bottom on the film...?  Or would it be the same as what you see through the viewfinder?



Petraio Prime said:


> Without an example it's impossible to tell.



I posted an example a few posts up.  I have more too...



Helen B said:


> Can you tell which side the scratch is on?



Just looked at the negative of the example I posted - the scratch is on the 'non-emulsion' (? - ...don't know the proper term for that side...) side.  The side that would be facing the shutter.

The emulsion side looks like it has rub marks or something on it, but I'm thinking that's normal...?  Doesn't seem to be affecting anything, anyway...


----------



## Helen B

O|||||||O said:


> Just to make sure I'm looking in the right area ... the image on the film plane is upside down, right?  The top of the image looking through the viewfinder is the bottom on the film...?



Yes.


----------



## Josh66

A few more examples (click on them to see them bigger):













This one is exceptionally bad:



...Bad enough that it's even obvious at this small size.


OK - the camera is empty now.  I think I see what is causing the scratches.  ...I can't believe I missed it before.  I'll get some before & after pictures when I fix it.

EDIT
OK - It should be fixed now...  I just loaded a roll of Ektar 100 - hopefully that comes out scratch free.

Here's what I think the problem was:




Fixed:




At first I thought it might be that little piece with the two arrows on it (just to the left of where it says 'film'), but it's very smooth - nothing there that could scratch the film...


----------



## Helen B

Josh,

That corner is outside the image area. It's in line with the sprocket holes.

Best,
Helen


----------



## Josh66

Hmm...  Damnit - you're right.  

No idea what it could be then...

edit
That little spring thing that keep pressure on the cartridge is right in line with where the scratch would be, but I don't see how that could touch the film...

I haven't shot anything on the roll I just put in, so I guess I'll rewind it (leader out of course...) and see what else I can find...


----------



## Helen B

Your film chamber looks very dusty.


----------



## Josh66

I cleaned it and blew it out - it's pretty clean now.  The flash is also making it look worse than it really is...


edit
Just took another look at it (and blew it out again) - the only thing I see that could be doing it is that little guide with the two arrows in it.  I don't see anything there that could be causing a scratch though...

It must be in some place that I can't see...


----------



## Early

There's no need to say 'thank you', Bolle.  What the hell, we're all family here.:lmao:


----------



## Derrel

WHat about the small rivet holding that shutter curtain??? FThat looks to be about the area where the scratch is. However, in the picture Sarah (5) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
with the multiple scratches--THAT is what a crummy,dirty photo lab has given you...that is not an in-camera type of scratch. Also, those white spots on your images--your lab looks like it might be unclean,and run by part-time high school kids. A dusty camera inside though, can also allow dust to migrate to the film as it is being shot. So...

How is the pressure plate??? The pressure plate pushes the film flat,against those silver guide rails above and below the film gate area...if the pressure plate is dinged up, it "could very well be" pressing your film agains that shutter arm retaining rivet...

And like Helen pointed out, your film chamber was prety dusty...I know, I know about how a flash makes dust stand out, but...do you see the scratches on the left hand side of the film gate area??? It does not take too much grit or stuff to wear that soft,painted surface down. Gotta swab that area out with a microfiber and a dab of alcohol occasionally.

I wonder about the pressure plate...it might be out of whack...has the camera been dropped? Camera backs are very,very prone to injury, more so than the lens mount. Does the camera have the databack function that uses small LED's to imprint (ie, FLASH) data onto frames? If so, where are they located??  I am not so convinced this scratching is coming from inside the camera, especially after seeing that multi-scratch special!


----------



## Josh66

I thought about that rivet too, but the shutter curtains are recessed pretty far in there.  Hard to tell from the picture - but there's no way it could be touching the film.


Some of the dust on the film could have gotten on it while I was scanning...

I just assumed the scratches were from the camera, since they're in the same place every time - but I use the same lab every time too...  I guess it's possible that something they're doing is causing it.  They're generally much better than somewhere like Walmart though - I've had film developed at Walmart in the past, and they looked horrible ... scratches everywhere.

You know - I do have a few rolls from a different lab...  Let me figure out which ones they are and check them...


----------



## usayit

How about put an old/outdated/cheap roll and fire through the whole thing then unroll it and examine the roll itself (without processing?).  Or perhaps examine the negatives themselves and see where the scratches line up.  

My 1v looks completely different on the take up spool side but it does have a sprint loaded guide roll attached to the film door.  Any chance there's something there?


----------



## Flash Harry

I only used pro labs for this sole reason or processed myself, Too many hi-street labs gear is not maintained very well at all. H


----------



## Josh66

usayit said:


> How about put an old/outdated/cheap roll and fire through the whole thing then unroll it and examine the roll itself (without processing?).


I'll try that.


I just thought of something though...

OK, I have 2 bodies (1N RS & 10s), and use 2 labs.  I have to check if the scratches are only on the film from the 1N RS, and from both labs.

If the problem is confined to one lab, or one body - I'll know more...


Gotta go look at all my negs and see if I can remember where they were processed, and what body they were from, lol.


----------



## Josh66

OK ... I'm not sure that my memory is good enough to say anything definitive, but it's starting to look like it might be the lab...

None of their scans have scratches though.  So they're either scanning it before the scratches are there, or editing them out.

I'm having a hard time remembering which camera each roll came from...

These three, I know for sure:

'Lab B', 10s:
Efke KB 50 - a set on Flickr
Fuji Neopan SS 100 - a set on Flickr

'Lab B', 1N RS:
Lomography Redscale 100 - a set on Flickr

I don't see those particular scratches on any of those.

The only ones that have the scratches all came from 'Lab A', but I can't remember for sure which ones were shot with the 10s.

I can't find anything that I know for sure came from the 10s that has scratches.  All of the scratched ones came from the same lab.

I just can't find a scratched one that I know for sure came from 'Lab A' _and_ the 10s.  If I could find that, I think I could say without a doubt that it was the lab doing it...

Some of the example pictures I posted above *might* have came from the 10s, but I can't say for sure.  That was when I was still using both of them, now I pretty much only use the 1N RS.

I also have another camera (Minolta, qtsi) that still has half a roll of film in it from who knows when...  It needs new batteries though...  I looked at some batteries at the store (CR2) - and damn are they expensive, lol.  I don't know if I want to spend that much on batteries for a camera I never use.

I might have to though, just so I can send the film to 'Lab A'...


----------



## Helen B

usayit said:


> How about put an old/outdated/cheap roll and fire through the whole thing then unroll it and examine the roll itself (without processing?).



Yeah. That's why I suggested the scratch test in post #16 - to find out if was the lab or the camera.

Best,
Helen


----------



## Josh66

I'm not sure I entirely understand how to do the scratch test...

I want to shoot one frame, open the back, take the film out and inspect it, put the film back in, then rewind it (leaving the leader out, I assume) and repeat (only shooting two frames the second time, three the third time, etc.)?

Or do I not want to rewind it?  Just close the back and take another frame?


I'll do that next time the camera is empty.  In the meantime, I'm going to send the next roll from the 1N RS to a different lab, and send a roll from a different camera to this lab.


----------

