# Engagement Session C&C



## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

Hey all, I had engagement session yesterday with my cousin Jaden and his fiancé Kerry. I’m liking them, but also think I’m struggling to be objective because of my relationship with them. Don’t be afraid to give me honest feedback, I can handle it. 

These are just the first four edits I’ve gotten done, there will be more to come eventually:

1.)






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4.)


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Looks good. I do have some critique for the first one. I would probably brighten up her face a bit since it's noticeably darker than his. It's sometimes hard to take these shots with one flash because of the light fall off and all the potential elements that can block the light. Because her head is behind his and farther away, she receives less light, so I would make sure that the two subjects are parallel in shots like this to avoid the difference in exposure. You might also move the flash closer and more to the front of them, just to experiment.

Other than that, though, I'll bet they will really like them.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Looks good. I do have some critique for the first one. I would probably brighten up her face a bit since it's noticeably darker than his. It's sometimes hard to take these shots with one flash because of the light fall off and all the potential elements that can block the light. Because her head is behind his and farther away, she receives less light, so I would make sure that the two subjects are parallel in shots like this to avoid the difference in exposure. You might also move the flash closer and more to the front of them, just to experiment.
> 
> Other than that, though, I'll bet they will really like them.



Thanks! I appreciate the feedback! That’s an easy fix in post, and I agree it should be done. 

Surprisingly, that photo was 100% natural light. They were just inside the edge of the of shaded area in the row of pine trees, and the overcast sky acted as a massive softbox on their faces.


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## Derrel (Oct 24, 2017)

Seeing these on my iPhone. I think Rex bobcat has a good C&C on the first shot. My suggestion on shot one is to crop it to square. I get that it's a horizontal in the trees on the right makes sense but I think it might be stronger as the Square. Overall like I said on mobile these look pretty darn good, and I think your worries about objectivity are well-founded in many cases but in this instance they look good


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

I'll let the others comment on the technical, and just say these are awesome! I really like the poses, though my OCD kicked in on #2 a little  because they aren't centered on the line. LOL


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 24, 2017)

I think the first one is a lovely shot of them both smiling and you captured their personalities (with a nice background too). I might just crop the right side enough to leave the far right tree trunk out of the frame, but that one is a keeper. 

I don't care for the second one with her in all black against the sunset, it doesn't seem that flattering in profile. Maybe with some adjustment it'd be better but I'd probably scrap that one, I don't think I'd give it to them. I think with the arms up around him it stretches her out in a somewhat awkward way. The last one is better with her wearing some color, and the way they're posed; it has them in a more relaxed and flattering pose I think. 

I like the one of the hands, other than I'd either put the tips of his thumbs back on! lol or crop the sides. Then of course you'd only see his wrist and watch, but I don't know, it's just a little choppy as is. It might have been better to have had him cup his hand a little more around hers so his thumbs were in the frame.They probably would like the photo, they'll be looking at the ring and letters, which is nicely done.


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## ronlane (Oct 24, 2017)

Nice set. I agree with @rexbobcat's comments.

One other suggestion for #1 would have been to put the OCF on the camera left if you were going to leave her back like that. I really like the pose, just would like to see her face lite a little bit more.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Engagement and wedding photography are different in that it emphasizes on the emotional and story telling aspects of the photos more than the technical aspect (compare to something like landscape, beauty, or commercial photography).

For me it's more or less the interaction between them.  The photos look great with minor technical issues, but they lack the emotional connection both between the couple and the viewers.   There's no "story" or anything for people to "fill in the blanks" and make their own story.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> For me it's more or less the interaction between them.  The photos look great with minor technical issues, but they lack the emotional connection both between the couple and the viewers.   There's no "story" or anything for people to "fill in the blanks" and make their own story.



I don't think engagement photos are generally about publicity.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> I don't think engagement photos are generally about publicity.



I don't even know what you mean LOL


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> rexbobcat said:
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> > I don't think engagement photos are generally about publicity.
> ...



The viewers are the couple. If they just want some nice photos together then it doesn't matter whether or not we see a story in the images.

I feel like there's this push to put every photo in the context of what would look good on social media, but the couple are really the arbiters of what kind of photos they need/want.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Vtec44 said:
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The viewers are the couple, the friends, the families, whoever they're going to share that with (either online or offline), whoever the friends/families are going to share the photos with, and if you want to do this as a business then your potential clients.  The couple will always LOVE their own photos,  but other people may not.  This has nothing to do with social media.  Photographs that tell amazing stories have  been around before the Internet.

There's always a story to each image.  If there isn't, there should be when it comes to engagement and wedding photography.  The "story" more or less about the emotional connection, the interaction, the feel that you get when you look at this type of photos (even if it's your own).  I mean if you want a few nice photos then full auto mode, golden hour, snap snap.  You get some nice photos.  If you want photos that will generate some sort of emotion, it's a whole different "story".


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## SquarePeg (Oct 24, 2017)

Not a pro and I don't take a lot of people photos but I'll give you my opinion for what it's worth.  Nice dof and genuine smiles make #1 the best of these.  I agree about lightening her face a bit.  #2 they appear awkward or a bit stiff and I'm not a fan of the standing in the middle of the road waiting to get hit by a car pose.  Marriage is a path so if you're being metaphorical then maybe showing them at the beginning of a path or road would make more sense.  Or crossing a bridge like in #4.  Love the scene and the leading lines and dof but, her legs look weird.  Her stance just doesn't look right from the side angle.  I think it's because both legs are blending into one?  I'm assuming that is not all one leg...  Hoping you'll post the rest of these as I'm sure you took a lot more.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> There's always a story to each image.



Then there's no need to manufacture a story through contrivances. Then again, maybe I'm alone in my apathy toward photos of a dude kissing his fiance's forehead like she's a child or having them bump heads like Steve Martin's character in Baby Mama while a faux Kodak Portra/Fujicolor 400h filter is placed on top of it.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

ronlane said:


> Nice set. I agree with @rexbobcat's comments.
> 
> One other suggestion for #1 would have been to put the OCF on the camera left if you were going to leave her back like that. I really like the pose, just would like to see her face lite a little bit more.




Agreed. 

But this is 100% natural light, no OCF involved.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Then there's no need to manufacture a story through contrivances. Then again, maybe I'm alone in my apathy toward photos of a dude kissing his fiance's forehead like she's a child.



There are so many ways to tell a story.  If that's the only way for a wedding/engagement photographer to tell the story of his/her clients then the person is just an average wedding/engagement photographer LOL


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> rexbobcat said:
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The locations chosen for this photo shoot were chosen because of importance in the couples lives and relationships. Those who are close to the couple will recognize the locations and likely know the reasoning behind them. 

Other than cheesy “staged” poses, I’ve never really seen an engagement session that “tells a story” any more than just being some nice photos of the couple interacting and being themselves. 

Also, I have about 140 more photos to sort through and edit from the evening so this isn’t the complete set.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> There are so many ways to tell a story.





Vtec44 said:


> There's always a story to each image.



Exactly.

You lack any context to be judging these photos on the merit of "story."

And since every photo tells a story, as you stated, there is no basis for critiquing them on that aspect.

Edit: And honestly, who gives a flying **** what the family thinks of the photos *the couple paid for.*


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

....and since we're start posting photos, I don't claim to be an expert but here's a recent shot.  It's an imperfect image but no kissing forehead in here


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> ....and since we're start posting photos, I don't claim to be an expert but here's a recent shot.  It's an imperfect image but no kissing forehead in here
> 
> View attachment 148729



I don't care about either of these people, so I don't understand the story. In my eyes, as a third party observer with not connection to the couple, they're just two engaged people staring at each other and smiling.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> I don't care about either of these people, so I don't understand the story.



Yeah, I didn't expect you to.  LOL  You're not within the demographic.  If you put my photo up against the OP's photo, and ask 2 future brides which photos are better, they will tell you all the reasons why.


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> ....and since we're start posting photos, I don't claim to be an expert but here's a recent shot. It's an imperfect image but no kissing forehead in here



Always admire your work, so please don't think I'm being a butt here, I just want to learn. What do you see as the story being told by your photo? And, how is it different from those posted by the OP?? I'm not understanding it?


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> Yeah, I didn't expect you to.  LOL  You're not within the demographic.  If you put my photo up against the OP's photo, and ask 2 future brides which photos are better, they will tell you all the reasons why.



This dick measuring is tiring. I've seen both styles of photos from photographers who each get consistent work.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> Always admire your work, so please don't think I'm being a butt here, I just want to learn. What do you see as the story being told by your photo? And, how is it different from those posted by the OP??



Not at all, it's a GREAT question.

The "story" is in the details, not just how they simply interact.  From hand gesture, eye contact, body placement.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> This dick measuring is tiring. I've seen both styles of photos from photographers who each get consistent work.



I'm just simply sharing what I think when I take photos, since I shoot wedding and engagement fulltime for a living.  If you feel that's it's "dick measuring" don't take my free advice and go on.  You do you! No big deal


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> The "story" is in the details, not just how they simply interact. From hand gesture, eye contact, body placement.



I'm sorry, guess I'm dense but I'm not understanding. Is it possibly that they are sharing some kind of moment or reacting to a comment???? Or is your definition of story something different?


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> I'm just simply sharing what I think when I take photos, since I shoot wedding and engagement fulltime for a living.



Then take my free advice and be wary of your ego. Or don't. I don't care.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > Always admire your work, so please don't think I'm being a butt here, I just want to learn. What do you see as the story being told by your photo? And, how is it different from those posted by the OP??
> ...



Eh, I’ll agree to disagree. The story behind my photos is much more meaningful *if* the couple is close to you and you’re privy to their story. Each of the locations I photographed them in have importance in the history of their relationship and their families. I allowed them to interact and be *themselves* which lets their personality shine through rather than some contrived story that I decided to manufacture through posing.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> I'm sorry, guess I'm dense but I'm not understanding. Is that possibly that they are sharing some kind of moment or reacting to a comment???? Or is your definition of story something different?



If you'd like I can share my thought process through PM.  The definition of "story" is different and I'm coming from a different point of view.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Then take my free advice and be wary of your ego. Or don't. I don't care.



My work speaks for itself.  If it's crap, people won't pay for it so there's no need for me to be egotistical.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> so there's no need for me to be egotistical.



And yet here you are. Anyways, have a good day.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > Then take my free advice and be wary of your ego. Or don't. I don't care.
> ...



Well that’s not exactly true. Most successful wedding and engagement photographers are such because they’re great businessmen and mediocre photographers. 

There are plenty of photographers with great work, better than anyone in their area, who can’t turn a profit due to poor business skills.


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> If you'd like I can share my thought process through PM. The definition of "story" is different and I'm coming from a different point of view.



By all means. PM me. I've always struggled on posing people, so I'm always looking for ideas and guidance.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> And yet here you are. Anyways, have a good day.



It seems like you can't have a friendly discussion.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> Well that’s not exactly true. Most successful wedding and engagement photographers are such because they’re great businessmen and mediocre photographers.
> 
> There are plenty of photographers with great work, better than anyone in their area, who can’t turn a profit due to poor business skills.



That's true to certain extend.  The excellent ones are both great businessmen and great photographers.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> rexbobcat said:
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> 
> > And yet here you are. Anyways, have a good day.
> ...



Can and will are two different things. I have nothing more to discuss since we're not going to change either perspective even though I understand yours. I simply don't like your oddly passive-aggressive way of having a "friendly" discussion. Maybe that's not how you intend to come across, but a lot of meaning is lost in plain text so....


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> Can and will are two different things. I have nothing more to discuss since we're not going to change either perspective even though I understand yours. I simply don't like your oddly passive-aggressive way of having a "friendly" discussion. Maybe that's not how you intend to come across, but a lot of meaning is lost in plain text so....



I don't even claim to be an expert, I didn't use profanity, I didn't call you names.

But, I can have this discussion all day long with examples of my own work to back it up.  I'm not here to change anyone's perspective but simply sharing my thought process.  Call me egotistical, passive aggressive, and sure you don't give a flying f**k.  You seem to have issues and taking this WAY too personally.  It's all good.  Take a deep breath!  It's only the Internet.  LOL


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> I don't even claim to be an expert, I didn't use profanity, I didn't call you names.
> 
> You seem to have issues and taking this WAY too personally.



LOL

My issue is that your work is irrelevant to the point I've been trying to make. Not everything can be explained by "Look at what I can do."


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> Eh, I’ll agree to disagree. The story behind my photos is much more meaningful *if* the couple is close to you and you’re privy to their story. Each of the locations I photographed them in have importance in the history of their relationship and their families. I allowed them to interact and be *themselves* which lets their personality shine through rather than some contrived story that I decided to manufacture through posing.



I just want to clarify that I'm only saying this because you asked to be critiqued and I am by no means putting your work down.   So please don't take this the wrong way. I typically don't critique people's work.

The "LOVE"  lettering and the engagement ring is  cliche but all wedding and engagement photos are cliche.  We just have to accept that fact.  LOL

I agree that we should allow the clients to interact and be themselves.  However, you also need to protect the female's arm, hip, legs, neck, stomach, etc so she doesn't look "wide".  For guys, you have to make them look relax and confident.

1.   Maybe if you try having the arm going under so it doesn't press against his body and bulge out.
2.  If he pulls her in a bit tight, this will slim out her waist.
3.  I already stated it above. LOL
4.  Same thing with pulling her in with his arm around her waist.  This is important especially with flowy dresses.  Both legs are straight and stiff.  They don't look relaxed.

Again, I'm no expert and I can totally be wrong.  LOL


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> LOL
> 
> My issue is that your work is irrelevant to the point I've been trying to make.



That's why I make my point using my work, and you make your point using yours. hahaha  I can't use someone else's work because it's against forum rules.


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## SquarePeg (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> Vtec44 said:
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Destin - you're ignoring free advice from a very popular, successful and talented wedding and engagement photographer.  I think that's foolish.  If you post and ask for critique, take it gracefully and then use it or don't.  Saying I'll agree to disagree and then insulting the person who gave you the advice is really rude.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

SquarePeg said:


> Destin said:
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I’m not ignoring his advice.

I’m ignoring his poor attitude, and I’m CLEARLY not the only one who sees it that way.

He just finally got around to *actually* giving me a critique in his most recent reply. The rest before that were all less than helpful, egotistic replies in which he did nothing but show off his work and state that it’s better than mine because of the “story.” And that is in no way helpful.

His most recent reply to me WAS helpful and is appreciated.

He also did an effective job of derailing the thread, so I’m less likely to get usable feedback from others now.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

SquarePeg said:


> Destin - you're ignoring free advice from a very popular, successful and talented wedding and engagement photographer.  I think that's foolish.  If you post and ask for critique, take it gracefully and then use it or don't.  Saying I'll agree to disagree and then insulting the person who gave you the advice is really rude.



we'll see about the popular, successful, and talented part... but this is generally why I avoid giving out advice.


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## Destin (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> > Destin - you're ignoring free advice from a very popular, successful and talented wedding and engagement photographer.  I think that's foolish.  If you post and ask for critique, take it gracefully and then use it or don't.  Saying I'll agree to disagree and then insulting the person who gave you the advice is really rude.
> ...




Why’s that again? Because you can’t do it without making yourself the center of attention?


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> I’m not ignoring his advice.
> 
> I’m ignoring his poor attitude, and I’m CLEARLY not the only one who sees it that way.
> 
> ...



With the risk of being called egotistical, my first post to you was under the assumption that you're an advanced photographer so I went above the technical aspect of posing and got more into the emotional aspect of it.  Most people just brush that off and worry about the technical aspect of things.  So, I went back to the technical aspect of posing just now. LOL

I never said my work is better.  I asked you to put your photos and mine side by side and ask potential brides to compare.  They will tell you all the reasons why they pick one over the other (not my work over yours).  YOU assumed that my work is better.  If you think that my work is better, then you should break down the reasons why and study it.  Showing it to potential clients is a great way to get an honest answer.

To be honest, someone gave me a similar advice that I gave you initially and that got me to improve my posing so much at least in what I do with photography.  It took me a while to get it, but it was a game changer for me.


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## limr (Oct 24, 2017)

How about _all_ the egos get put away and the attention turns back to the photos?


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> Why’s that again? Because you can’t do it without making yourself the center of attention?



Because my thought process is different than most people.   Beautiful photos are a dime a dozen, anyone with a camera can turn out beautiful photos.  When your clients dream to be in your photos, then you know you're doing something great.  Most photographers  just want to take beautiful photos.  I want to make people dream about being in my photos.  My advice and critique to others are within that thought process.  However you want to take that is up to you.


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## smoke665 (Oct 24, 2017)

SquarePeg said:


> Her stance just doesn't look right from the side angle. I think it's because both legs are blending into one?



I noticed this in the 2nd and last, I don't think it's anything Destin did or didn't do necessarily, but it almost appears as if the lady's knees are bent backward. I guess it wouldn't show as much if it were a front view, or she was in a dress below the knees. Honestly I never would have caught it while I was shooting, but that's why I'm still a hobbyist.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Destin said:


> Vtec44 said:
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> > SquarePeg said:
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This is par for the course and one of the reasons I don't come here often anymore.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

rexbobcat said:


> This is par for the course and one of the reasons I don't come here often anymore.



Me too!  My popularity is making it difficult to go anywhere!  hahaha j/k    You do you!!


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## rexbobcat (Oct 24, 2017)

Vtec44 said:


> rexbobcat said:
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Same.


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## limr (Oct 24, 2017)

Well, that is some good solid closure!

Moving on, now...


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## Vtec44 (Oct 24, 2017)

limr said:


> Well, that is some good solid closure!
> 
> Moving on, now...



What were we talking about again?


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## Derrel (Oct 24, 2017)

Fricking train wreck of a thread...poor behavior on the part of two people here...


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## birdbonkers84 (Oct 25, 2017)

Destin said:


> Hey all, I had engagement session yesterday with my cousin Jaden and his fiancé Kerry. I’m liking them, but also think I’m struggling to be objective because of my relationship with them. Don’t be afraid to give me honest feedback, I can handle it.
> 
> These are just the first four edits I’ve gotten done, there will be more to come eventually:
> 
> ...


I came here looking for an interesting thread about feedback and all I've come away with is the word "LOL"....

I really like the first one Destin, you've caught both their own personal smiles really well in that shot, agree with the woman being slightly dark, but I'm sure you can fix that.

Not a fan of the 2nd, but get the idea with the road. even if I do like the sun setting in the background.

I think the last one is better than no.2, I think she looks sexy (can I say that?) her hair looks better and the colour of the dress.


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## pixmedic (Oct 25, 2017)

honestly, I think this is a great set. 
#1 could use a little tweaking, but its nothing major or unfixable in post. 
#3 is a *great* ring shot... that's a pro shot. all day, err day. 
there are a few things i would have done differently here. most of it just personal preference...
#1 i would have cropped tall. just me. 
#2 i would have cropped in a little more. again, just me. i dont like that much room up top. 
I might have dropped the red channel in #3 just a hair to see what it looked like. 
normally i might say crop more in #4, but as i look at it i think keeping more of the walkway in the shot is better. 

overall this is a very nice set. i have no doubt that the couple will be pleased with them. 
I see nothing here that I would consider a glaring issue, or that would make me consider not showing it to the client. 

we all have different ideas on how we feel a photo should look. the two most important things to consider when judging your own end product are
#1 how YOU envisioned the photo.
#2 how the CLIENT envisioned the photo. 
if those two things get a thumbs up, then you doing fine. 
having said that, dont forget that just because someone else has a different view on how a photo could have been done, it doesnt mean that you cant incorporate their suggestions and improve your work.


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