# I am a client and have a question regarding professionalism of a photographer



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you first off for reading and hopefully responding.  I need advice as this is eating at me.  If I was in the wrong I would like to know as I don't intentionally try to hurt anyone however I do state my mind and more so if I am paying for a service. I will note there was no contract and I did not sign any releases.  I was handed a disk with full rights of images.

I booked a grow with me package (3, 6, 9, 12 month pictures along with a family session). I talked to the photographer about what I wanted and liked. She would state that I can have out changes, she allows as much time that is needed, everything sounded great. Fast forward to the first session my husband and I went. I explained that we had a pair of booties that we got in Ireland on our honeymoon when we found out we were expecting and that it is important to us to have a picture with our son with the booties (on or near him).  When I received the pictures there were no bootie pictures. None. In fact there were no full body shots either. All were face shots or half body shots.

I contacted her and told her I was going to be honest I was disappointed that we had no bootie pictures and that we had no full body shots.  I told her I felt as she rushed through the session as she had her family pictures after our appointment (something she told us when we got there). She immediately took offense and said that it is a distraction to have both parents there and only one should come and she did offer a reshoot. We declined because we were having family pictures in a week.

Family pictures were good. I even told her so.

Now 2 days before 6 months pictures I get a message to bring 1 outfit and stuffed animals. I replied I bought 2 outfits for the pictures. She said fine than forget the stuffed animals. I replied we will just bring the 1 outfit and stuffed animals as you request.  I show up and my husband stays in the van as he doesn't feel welcomed to come in for the pictures. As I am changing my son into his outfit she calls her young (guessing 5 year old) down stairs to get her to make  my son smile!  She has her daughter toss a stuffed animal up in front of him and wiggle it in his face. Well he leans forward and falls off the suitcase she had him on.  She caught him but now he is upset and scared and will not smile at all. Not that I expect all pictures to be smiles----but I didn't get a single one.

Regardless I told my husband about this and he was furious as she only wanted one person there and than she gets her daughter downstairs to toss animals around him (mind you she has not even attempted to get him to smile without her daughter there----as I was getting him dressed when she called her down).

I wrote her a very straight forward message stating we will no longer be using her photography:

I just wanted to let you know that my husband and I decided that we are not going to continue to use your photography. We were not completely satisfied with his 3 month shoot which you took complete offense and blamed it on the day/time (which you picked) and than said
not to bring my husband as it is a distraction. You also said that 3 months is not a milestone and more time and poses are done at the 6 month shoot. 

The 6 month shoot I thought was extremely unprofessional. As I was getting my son dressed you called your young daughter downstairs to make my baby smile. Which I was in complete shock as you haven’t even attempted to take his pictures and to be honest I pay YOU to take his pictures not your daughter. My husband sat out in the van in your driveway as he was too big of a distraction and you only wanted one of us present. And than you have your daughter tossing stuffed animals up in front of my son and wiggling them in his face. Not appropriate. Not professional. That is something you would do maybe with a friend but never with a client. Not only that but having her wiggle those stuffed animals in his face of course he was going to lean towards them and fell off the suitcase which thankfully you caught him. However, in turn he was scared and did not smile the rest of the shoot.

When my husband found out that you had your daughter present but you did not want him present per your e-mail after the 3 month session he was furious. The whole idea of the grow with me sessions was to build memories. Happy ones. My husband doesn’t feel welcome to his sons pictures and I don't feel as you deliver what you promised from the beginning. 

I mentioned I had purchased 2 outfits for his 6 months pictures and it seemed to be an inconvenience for you so I left one at home. We actually went the day after your session to get his pictures taken again so we could have the photos with the outfits that we wanted. When we were with this other photographer, they stated we could have outfit changes, never were rushed in and out, they also involved my husband in to a wonderful picture of having Oliver standing in front of him which is something I wanted. They knew this as they listened and asked what was important to us. 

My suggestion to you is to sit down with your clients and discuss what is expected and what is going to be delivered. Go over it, put it in a contract, both sign it. This way it is black and white. Never once did you ask me what I wanted in a picture or what was important to us, the paying clients, to capture. Before paying for the package you were open, willing and seemed easy to work with afterwards not so much.

This was her response:

I feel that I have tolerated verbal abuse from you from the start. I have never had any client complain to me in anyway. I called my child down to try and make the experience fun and laid back for you and him. Since I feel completely uncomfortable and attacked my you. I agree I wish to not go forward being your photographer. I have been doing this for 15 years and never been so insulted in my entire career. No other photographer would have continued as I did. I do not however need criticism from you about my work or the way I conduct my business. You were constantly picturing in your mind certain. Images that didn't turn out how you pictured them and I feel you were never gonna be happy. As a photographer i work with what I have. I work with how the child/baby allows. Sometimes it doesn't work out sometimes it does. I had plenty of time to do as many outfits as you wanted. You said you would bring one. That was your call. I feel this was completely misconstrued by you I have remained professional and went above and beyond even though over a phone call you personally attacked me verbally attacked and insulted my work. I will mail you a refund of 150. For remainder of session package for 9 month and one year. I hope you find a good fit for you for those sessions.

I need your mailing address for the refund.

As long as you do. It continue to bash my business and myself I will issue the refund. I will be leaving for another country to shoot a wedding. So I will be unreachable until next weekend. I would appreciate an address so when I return I can mail your refund. I would also appreciate if you would simply reply with the address and refrain from another long and extremely insulting message. As I am agreeing to not go forward as your photographer and issuing you a refund for remaining two sessions. However if bashing of myself or my business happens on any social media outlet I will not honor your refund. I am sure you can respect that as I am doing everything I can to end our business together on any positive note.

First I don't think I was verbally abusive in any way. Straight forward. Yes. Second I never asked or demanded a refund just terminated her services.  She offered refund which is good on her part but I feel as she is attacking me and telling me I can't leave a review based on my experience with her. Not that I was going to but I feel as I have that right.

Third I didn't sign a release and she has my sons pictures (and his first name) and our family pictures on her facebook business page. I do not want them on there.  Do I have an attorney mail her a letter requesting them to be removed as she made it clear not to send her any messages?
 I haven;t replied at all not even with my address.. 
Thank you


----------



## astroNikon (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm not a pro .. so wait for the great advice.  
But I think you did the right thing.


----------



## Designer (Jan 26, 2015)

Send her your address for the refund.

This is less about photography and more about people skills, which the photographer clearly lacks.  Lacking in people skills is hardly anything unusual, and I doubt if she will get any better, so cut your losses and find a different photographer.


----------



## Light Guru (Jan 26, 2015)

Sounds like both sides had different expectations.  This is why a contract is important, so that both sides are in agreement as to what services will be pro formed.   It does sound like the photographer has some people skills issues, which can make communication of expectations difficult.  When it comes to people photography people skills are perhaps more important then photography skills.


----------



## sm4him (Jan 26, 2015)

While I could spend DAYS coming up with delightfully sardonic replies to this woman, you would be far better served here to just be short and sweet…well, if not sweet, at least short. 
BUT, if it were me, I *would* address the matter of her posting your son's photos for her own promotional use--she holds the copyright, so you can't require her to delete the photos, but I think since this concerns a minor, and there was no contract, that you CAN refuse to allow them to be used in online promotional material. I wouldn't really give a rat's behind that she told you to not reply with anything except your address. It won't be the first time she didn't get what she wanted. 

Dear (Photographer's Name):
My address is…..
I shall expect to receive the agreed upon refund of $XX no later than (acceptable date, allowing time for her to mail it after she returns from her trip).
Additionally, as there was no contract and no written agreement for you to use my child's images for your own promotional purposes, please remove all images of my child from your website and social media pages, as well as anywhere else you may be using them.

Thank you,
XX

If you're really feeling snarky, you might add, "Failure to remove images of my son from these sites may result in legal action."


----------



## Vtec44 (Jan 26, 2015)

I dont know, I wasn't there so I can't judge.  This should be handled by those that are involved.  If you feel than an attorney is appropriate then it's a good idea to have one.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

sm4him said:


> While I could spend DAYS coming up with delightfully sardonic replies to this woman, you would be far better served here to just be short and sweet…well, if not sweet, at least short.
> BUT, if it were me, I *would* address the matter of her posting your son's photos for her own promotional use--she holds the copyright, so you can't require her to delete the photos, but I think since this concerns a minor, and there was no contract, that you CAN refuse to allow them to be used in online promotional material. I wouldn't really give a rat's behind that she told you to not reply with anything except your address. It won't be the first time she didn't get what she wanted.
> 
> Dear (Photographer's Name):
> ...


 I may be mistaken on this, but AFAIK, US law in this area is very similar to Canadian, specifically in that it makes no distinction about age, and therefore, there are no legal grounds to make such a demand based on the fact that there`s a minor involved.  Quite honestly, aside from asking politely and hoping that she agrees, I think in this area, you may be out of luck.


----------



## sm4him (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > While I could spend DAYS coming up with delightfully sardonic replies to this woman, you would be far better served here to just be short and sweet…well, if not sweet, at least short.
> ...



I wondered about that. Thanks, John, good to know.

So, perhaps the OP would be best to simply say, "Please remove my son's images from your website and social media sites," but she may just have to recognize that if the photographer opts NOT to do so, there may be little that can be done about it.

Either way, OP, keep anything else even remotely personal out of it at this point, make sure you get her the address, and be done with it.  You'll be better off to simply write it off as a lesson learned and not dwell on it anymore than necessary. 

And next time, be sure to take your own advice. Always, always get a contract!!


----------



## photoguy99 (Jan 26, 2015)

Dragging out how long you've been in business as a defense always strikes me as supremely lame. Especially when you chuck in the usual rubbish about "I've never had any complaints from a single one of my billions of customers over the millennia I have been in business" which is basically always a lie.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

She's giving you $150 refund for the remainder of the shoot... which means you paid her... what... like $300 for 2 sessions and a disk of all high res images?

You didn't hire a professional. 

You hired a shoot and burner.

You get what you pay for.

THAT BEING SAID... What she did was totally not right and totally unprofessional. You weren't wrong to fire her, and you didn't do anything inappropriate, at least the way your side of the story has it sounding.

Just email her with your address, let it go, and hire a REAL photographer, who yes probably charges more, but a) Has quality work  b) REAL experience with children  c) Is professional and has people skills.

NOW.

I wanna see this chick's work.

I have a feeling I already know what it's going to look like, but every time I hear stories like these I always am curious to see the portfolio of said photographer.

If you don't feel like posting it publicly... feel free to PM it to me.


----------



## SquarePeg (Jan 26, 2015)

chanting:  pics!  pics!  pics!  pics!


----------



## Designer (Jan 26, 2015)

Yes, please link us to her Facebook page.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

Just a friendly Moderator's warning...  given the situation, and lacking any documentation to the contrary, I doubt the OP has the right to post the images.  A link to a website however....


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you everyone for the responses. I feel better with my e-mail and with my gut that I did not verbally abuse her in any way.  I will send her my address with the correct refund amount and to ask her politely to remove the pictures from her business page.  I have no problem uploading a few pictures of my son if there is a way to go back and take them down eventually.

In my area (rural Iowa) I researched and she was in the middle for what people were charging so I thought it was ok.  I paid 750 for my wedding pictures in which I loved!  So I believed it was a decent price. Lesson learned.


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

Shannon Deweerd Photography - wdm - Photographer, Wedding Planning | Facebook


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Just a friendly Moderator's warning...  given the situation, and lacking any documentation to the contrary, I doubt the OP has the right to post the images.  *A link to a website however....*





Red1012 said:


> Thank you everyone for the responses. I feel better with my e-mail and with my gut that I did not verbally abuse her in any way.  I will send her my address with the correct refund amount and to ask her politely to remove the pictures from her business page.  I have no problem uploading a few pictures of my son if there is a way to go back and take them down eventually.
> 
> In my area (rural Iowa) I researched and she was in the middle for what people were charging so I thought it was ok.  I paid 750 for my wedding pictures in which I loved!  So I believed it was a decent price. Lesson learned.



I'm not asking for picks of her son... I'm asking for a link to the photographer's website/Facebook page.

I want to see her whole portfolio... not just this one shoot.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

Red1012 said:


> Shannon Deweerd Photography - wdm - Photographer, Wedding Planning | Facebook



Oooo, yay!


----------



## photoguy99 (Jan 26, 2015)

Ugh, this popcorn is turning to ashes in my mouth, and yet, I cannot look away.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

Rose nailed it!


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Rose nailed it!



Yes... Yes I did.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

And I get that. I do. I truly learned a lesson in all of this.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

Slim pickin's in West Des Moines, ha.

But out of all the photographers that I found in my *very fast* Google search...

I would have gone with this woman over all of them:

Jill Austin Photography

She's not priced like an idiot and she has solid work.

How the hell did you find the other person? And if you say "Thumbtack" or "Craigslist" I might cry... I mean... still... I wanna know... because I'm curious... but... I might cry.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Just a friendly Moderator's warning...  given the situation, and lacking any documentation to the contrary, I doubt the OP has the right to post the images.  *A link to a website however....*
> ...


 Understood...  just wanted to avoid any problems before they happened.


----------



## sm4him (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> Slim pickin's in West Des Moines, ha.
> 
> But out of all the photographers that I found in my *very fast* Google search...
> 
> ...



OP…PLEASE…do NOT make E. Rose cry!
Tell her a friend of a friend of a friend, or something…but just don't make Rose cry!!


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

I live a hour and a half from des moines. She came to me for family shots. So in my area where I live I thought going to a des moines photographer was better which she is more expensive than the one around me. Like I said she was in the middle price range from what I found.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

sm4him said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > Slim pickin's in West Des Moines, ha.
> ...



If she tells me that, then I'll KNOW it was Thumbtack and I'll cry anyway.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

Red1012 said:


> I live a hour and a half from des moines. She came to me for family shots. So in my area where I live I thought going to a des moines photographer was better which she is more expensive than the one around me. Like I said she was in the middle price range from what I found.



She came to YOU for family shots? Are *you* a photographer?

And no, she's not middle price range... she's low price range. She's very low.

Maybe not as low as the kid doing a high res disk and session for $50, but she might as well be.


----------



## sm4him (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> *Maybe not as low as the kid doing a high res disk and session for $50*, but she might as well be.



From her FB page:
"Valentines mini session $50. 20 min session plus 5 high resolution edited images on a cd and a print release. Limited spots. Message to book."


----------



## KmH (Jan 26, 2015)

It sounds like the photos were made in her home?

For the US - If the photos were made in private, in her home, she does indeed need your permission to use the photos she made to promote herself as a professional photographer or to advertise her business.
If the photos were made in a public park and any passerby could have stood there and watched, she would not need your permission.

But, it will likely cost you way more than $150 start legal action to force her to remove the photos from online.


----------



## runnah (Jan 26, 2015)

I know this is the internet but lets not bash someone who isn't here to defend themselves. Besides there are always two sides to the story.

p.s. I am sure most of use would not like a group of strangers ripping through our portfolios.


----------



## pixmedic (Jan 26, 2015)

I dont think we need to go into an entire bashing session, obviously the OP was dissatisfied with the results, and I can totally understand why. 
just a cursory browsing through the photographers FB page shows a fundamental lack of understanding of proper lighting, exposure, white balance, posing, and cropping. 
no to mention a complete lack of consistency. 

I would go with e.rose's recommendation for the remainder of  your photo sessions.


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

OKay. I am not a photographer.  I have only dealt with a "professional" photographer with my wedding prior to this.  Before this I would take my kids to a chain studio.  My older kids are 17, 15, 13 and that is what did.  I however wanted something different this time.  I am not saying that I knew everything or anything at all about it.

 I found her name from someone on facebook asking for a reasonably priced photographer to do kids/family pictures. When people gave references I looked at those. Did I do it right? Obviously not.  But she was better than the other ones that were suggested.  It is on me that I got the pictures I did. I completely own that.


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you. I will definitely look into erose for the rest of his sessions.  Again thank you everyone with the help.


----------



## SquarePeg (Jan 26, 2015)

Wow erose you certainly found a winner quickly.  Great choice.  OP - check out the portfolio of the person erose found for you, very nice work.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> I would go with e.rose's recommendation for the remainder of  your photo sessions.



She might not even be the best option. She was just the best option I found in the course of 2 minutes. But she's solid...

Moral of the story: Do more complete research


Red1012 said:


> OKay. I am not a photographer.  I have only dealt with a "professional" photographer with my wedding prior to this.  Before this I would take my kids to a chain studio.  My older kids are 17, 15, 13 and that is what did.  I however wanted something different this time.  I am not saying that I knew everything or anything at all about it.
> 
> I found her name from someone on facebook asking for a reasonably priced photographer to do kids/family pictures. When people gave references I looked at those. Did I do it right? Obviously not.  But she was better than the other ones that were suggested.  It is on me that I got the pictures I did. I completely own that.



I only asked if you were a photographer because you said she "came to me for family pictures". So I thought you were saying that she came to YOU to BE photographed for HER family pictures. 

Next time if the best of the recommendations you get still sucks... Google.

People recommend terrible sh*t all the time, because everyone has a different motive for hiring who they do.

Are they looking for someone cheap? That's who they'd recommend.

Are they looking for someone quality? That's who they'd recommend.

Are they looking for someone to offer an amazing experience?

Can the people making recommendations even tell the difference between a good one and a sh*tty one?

All those things matter, and they matter differently to different people.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

Red1012 said:


> Thank you. I will definitely look into erose for the rest of his sessions.  Again thank you everyone with the help.



Nooooo, don't look into ME.

1. I'm not cheap.

2. I don't do babies.

3. I don't live in Des Moines. 

He meant to look at the person I linked to as a recommendation.

NOTE:  I don't know that person, I have never met that person, I don't personally endorse that person... I just did a Google search and that was the best option I found. I looked for literally 2 minutes. There may be other better options for all I know, but I didn't dig that deep. That's your job.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm not a great people photographer yet, but I can tell you the lighting on the PROFILE picture for her site is just god awful.

I'm sorry you had that experience. While you do get what you pay for, sometimes you don't know really what you're going to get, and that's completely understandable.

As for strangers ripping through my portfolio, I'd actually invite it... That means SOMEONE's looking at the damned thing.


----------



## pixmedic (Jan 26, 2015)

sm4him said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > *Maybe not as low as the kid doing a high res disk and session for $50*, but she might as well be.
> ...



we don't do a ton of work. don't really care much for volume. 
we get $200 for basic portraits (1-3 people) with up to 5 pictures.  additional people are $50 each. 
As I understand it, we are pretty "middle of the road" as far as  pricing goes  in our area. 

I would not necessarily use price to determine a photographers quality. 
while it can be a reasonable indicator, you also cannot rule out higher priced photographers just pricing high to try and gouge the market, or overvalue themselves. 

always use a photographers portfolio as the best means to pick someone that will suit your needs. ask for references. 
Do a image search to make sure their images are actually their own, and not stolen to fluff their portfolio. 
if their work looks like it will suit your needs, and their pricing is within your budget, then you have a much better chance of having picked a suitable photographer.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

KmH said:


> It sounds like the photos were made in her home?
> 
> For the US - If the photos were made in private, in her home, she does indeed need your permission to use the photos she made to promote herself as a professional photographer or to advertise her business.
> If the photos were made in a public park and any passerby could have stood there and watched, she would not need your permission.
> ...


 Interesting - so even if the house were a proper business premises (which seems unlikely based on what we've seen/heard) there's no inherent entitelment to self-promote?


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

I meant she came to my location for family pictures.  And I meant I would look at the photographer that erose pulled from her google search. Not obviously erose herself.

And yes, I will definitely look on google for reviews, etc. I was just trying to get something better than a department store studio which is basically what they have here at my town besides a few very amateur photographers. 

Lesson is learned. Although originally this was not so much about her pictures but more of her saying I verbally abused her and I wanted to make sure I was not in my message. But mostly I just want my sons pictures off her page and to be done with it. I never expected a refund nor did I ask for one. I never threatened bad reviews but I feel that I am entitled to give my feedback.

And yes, to whomever mentioned---it was done in a home studio.  (I don't know how to quote like you all are doing).  And if she will not remove them when I ask I am glad to know that legally she would have to if I needed to go that route.

Thank you.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

minicoop1985 said:


> I'm sorry you had that experience. While you do get what you pay for, sometimes you don't know really what you're going to get, and that's completely understandable.



There was no way NOT to know what you're going to get with that person. The portfolio speaks for itself. It's clear as day. 



pixmedic said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > e.rose said:
> ...



No, you definitely shouldn't make pricing the ONLY way to gauge, but it's a pretty good indicator.

There ARE incredible photographers priced WAY TOO LOW... it happens... because they're new to business, or just gun shy about raising their prices... it happens. But it's rare, because the ones that do that, don't do it for long before they realize they need to up their prices... or... the ones that stay there are few and far in between.

There are also mediocre photographers priced WAY TOO HIGH for what their work is worth. Because they're overconfident, or they've "been doing this for 40 years", and so they stand on their name carrying their worth and for some reason people buy into it... who knows... but it happens.

But like you said, that's where the portfolio comes into play.

I know when I'm shopping around for photographers, I look ONLY at the portfolio. Whomever's portfolio speaks to me the most is the one whose pricing I look at. If they're out of my budget, I cry for a minute, and then I either decide to save up... OR... I keep looking until someone else's portfolio appeals to me, and then I check *their* pricing.

But that's just me.


----------



## runnah (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> I know when I'm shopping around for photographers, I look ONLY at the portfolio. Whomever's portfolio speaks to me the most is the one whose pricing I look at. If they're out of my budget, I cry for a minute, and then I either decide to save up... OR... I keep looking until someone else's portfolio appeals to me, and then I check *their* pricing.
> 
> But that's just me.



You don't read the about me sections?!


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

Red1012 said:


> I meant she came to my location for family pictures.  And I meant I would look at the photographer that erose pulled from her google search. Not obviously erose herself.
> 
> And yes, I will definitely look on google for reviews, etc. I was just trying to get something better than a department store studio which is basically what they have here at my town besides a few very amateur photographers.
> 
> ...



It wasn't originally about the pictures... but... it's a photo forum... so naturally we're going to talk about that.

Especially since we already established you didn't verbally abuse her, and she's clearly crazy.  

I mean, you could always just wait for your refund before posting a review... I'm sure she's not going to have you sign a contract on that agreement either 

And what is she going to do? Take her $150 sessions and save up for a few years to hire a lawyer to go after you? I doubt she has that budgeted into her non-existant business plan.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

runnah said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > I know when I'm shopping around for photographers, I look ONLY at the portfolio. Whomever's portfolio speaks to me the most is the one whose pricing I look at. If they're out of my budget, I cry for a minute, and then I either decide to save up... OR... I keep looking until someone else's portfolio appeals to me, and then I check *their* pricing.
> ...









And yes. I do. Once I'm interested in someone.

Or if someone is just so hilariously awful... I read those too... because the About Me section is usually just as entertaining.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Jan 26, 2015)

Well, I do agree that to us her portfolio says all we need to know, but imagine for a second you knew nothing about portraiture. Basically, be me for a second.  If you have no idea what you're really looking at in fine detail as you do (E.Rose, you being a pretty impressive portrait artist yourself), then her work might look just fine. Like I said, take it as someone who has no idea what they're looking at.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

minicoop1985 said:


> Well, I do agree that to us her portfolio says all we need to know, but imagine for a second you knew nothing about portraiture. Basically, be me for a second.  If you have no idea what you're really looking at in fine detail as you do (E.Rose, you being a pretty impressive portrait artist yourself), then her work might look just fine. Like I said, take it as someone who has no idea what they're looking at.



There was a time that I had no idea what I was looking at. I wasn't *always* a photographer.

And I have friends who don't anything fancier than an iPhone camera and they can tell the difference between a shoot and burner and a seasoned pro.

Sure, there's a certain level where it gets harder to distinguish, unless you really know what you're looking at, but really... you can tell when it's someone bad vs. someone good.

Although... you're not wrong... there ARE some people who are just SIMPLY amazing and LITERALLY CANNOT TELL the difference between an "You Are Not A Photographer .Com" worthy entry or a Vogue submission.

I call them "photo blind".

Their like tone deaf people who don't know when they or someone else is off key... but for visual art.


----------



## photoguy99 (Jan 26, 2015)

The only relevant indicator is the lack of a contract.

Who cares about white balance and lighting? If you like someone's work, the fact that they make it all yellow and put the lights in non-TPF-approved locations is irrelevant. Pricing is also pretty much irrelevant, being wildly variable depending on an endless array of factors, not all of them knowable.

The lack of a contract is a bit of a red flag, though. There's no way around that.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> minicoop1985 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I do agree that to us her portfolio says all we need to know, but imagine for a second you knew nothing about portraiture. Basically, be me for a second.  If you have no idea what you're really looking at in fine detail as you do (E.Rose, you being a pretty impressive portrait artist yourself), then her work might look just fine. Like I said, take it as someone who has no idea what they're looking at.
> ...



It's a lot easier to be wrong about it when you're not directly comparing it to other work. If you put her profile directly next to, say, my future boss (I hope...), in separate tabs, it's blatantly obvious who the real seasoned pro is, but looking at just one or two profiles here and there, it's a bit more difficult. Unless you're like us, then we know what a decent looking portrait is. Like @binga63 's work.


----------



## Red1012 (Jan 26, 2015)

I obviously have a lot to learn in the photography world! 

I love how willing everyone here was to give me an outsiders view and give me some tips on what to look for in the future.  I also know I will not ever do any sort of business without a contract and will most definitely doing much needed digging in to a portfolio before making any decisions in the future.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Jan 26, 2015)

And there must be a ton of those photo blind people, because YouAreNotAPhotographer . com exists.


----------



## astroNikon (Jan 26, 2015)

FWIW, the OP's first indicators were she didn't get pics of the child with the "ireland" booties  and full body shots that she said were important to her.   OP didn't mention Out Of Focus or lighting issues, etc. which would have required some experience to identify.

Of course her child falling off of the suitcase ?? would aggravate anyone!!  and the other parent not being allowed in .. etc etc etc

OP did the best thing for the situation.

Real photographers are somewhat expensive but provide astonishing results with a full studio, or portable studio.  But there are also bad expensive photographers too and good cheap photographers.

Thus why you have to carefully look at one's portfolio.
Or just come here and ask for recommendations.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

minicoop1985 said:


> It's a lot easier to be wrong about it when you're not directly comparing it to other work. If you put her profile directly next to, say, my future boss (I hope...), in separate tabs, it's blatantly obvious who the real seasoned pro is, but looking at just one or two profiles here and there, it's a bit more difficult. Unless you're like us, then we know what a decent looking portrait is. Like @binga63 's work.



Eh, I'd refute that. Again, I wasn't always a photographer... photography wasn't even always on my radar... I was a recording engineer... but I didn't have to put images side by side to know what was good and what was bad.

Again, once you hit, "that photographer is decent" stage... it can start to get difficult for people to distinguish between a decent photographer, a good photographer, a great photographer and an "OH MY GOD TAKE MY MONEY NOW, MY HOUSE, MY CAR, AND MY FIRST BORN SON, JUST TAKE MY PHOTO NOW PLEAAAAAASE!" photographer... but it's usually fairly obvious who the *bad* ones are. 



minicoop1985 said:


> And there must be a ton of those photo blind people, because YouAreNotAPhotographer . com exists.



There are also a lot of tone deaf people, because America Idol starts off with hundreds of terrible, terrible singers every season, just for the sake of entertainment during the audition rounds. 

But they're not the majority. Not everyone is a great singer, but most people care carry a tune and match pitch for the most part.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

astroNikon said:


> Or just come here and ask for recommendations.



And even THEN you have to be careful.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

SIDE NOTE: MY KEYBOARD WON'T STOP AUTO CORRECTING THE "" SHORTCUT INTO THE WORDS "SEXY WINK" AND IT MAKES ME SEEM CREEPY.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 26, 2015)

e.rose said:


> SIDE NOTE: MY KEYBOARD WON'T STOP AUTO CORRECTING THE "" SHORTCUT INTO THE WORDS "SEXY WINK" AND IT MAKES ME SEEM CREEPY.


 You are creepy!

(But in a good way)


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > SIDE NOTE: MY KEYBOARD WON'T STOP AUTO CORRECTING THE "" SHORTCUT INTO THE WORDS "SEXY WINK" AND IT MAKES ME SEEM CREEPY.
> ...


----------



## astroNikon (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > SIDE NOTE: MY KEYBOARD WON'T STOP AUTO CORRECTING THE "" SHORTCUT INTO THE WORDS "SEXY WINK" AND IT MAKES ME SEEM CREEPY.
> ...


but we still love her .. creepily love her though ...


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

astroNikon said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > e.rose said:
> ...



I mean, that's the only kind of love I can comprehend, sooooooo...


----------



## gsgary (Jan 26, 2015)

If 2 sessions cost you $150 I think you got what you paid for


----------



## gsgary (Jan 26, 2015)

Red1012 said:


> Shannon Deweerd Photography - wdm - Photographer, Wedding Planning | Facebook


Did you look at these before booking her ? Because it looks like she has had a camera 15 minutes not 15 years


----------



## vintagesnaps (Jan 26, 2015)

No contract/no releases doesn't seem like what would be expected of a professional photographer, but I don't think that a client would necessarily know to expect that's what should be done.

My background is in child development/early intervention, and I've been used to having parents participating with their child in class and at home visits. Having more than one adult giving a child directions at once can be distracting for a child but I'd expect a baby photographer or anyone that works with young children would know how to work with that.

I don't necessarily find it to be a problem to have another child participate in the session, the concern to me would be discouraging both parents from being at the session and not having the dad there to engage the child's attention or be involved in the photo shoot.

A young child should only be placed in/on equipment that's appropriate for that age; not up on something until they are able to climb down or turn and swing their legs around and come down feet first safely. Trust your instincts, if this situation didn't seem good for your child, you probably made a good decision to not to take him back.

I agree probably your best option is to get the refund, keep your communications brief and reasonable even if that's not what you've gotten in response, and request the photos not be used on the photographer's website or Facebook page.



I hadn't looked at the pictures yet, not necessarily the worst or the best I've seen but I don't know if that's saying a lot, considering what's 'out there'. And as photographers we're looking at the color and white balance issues etc., the parents might like the pictures, we just have a different perspective on it I think.


----------



## KmH (Jan 26, 2015)

tirediron said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like the photos were made in her home?
> ...


If shot in private, or under controlled conditions, the photographer needs to have a valid model release on file to establish legal permission to use a person's likeness for self-publication and/or self-advertising.

Since the photographer in question didn't even use a contract. it's likely the photographer is also clueless about releases and copyright.

For those photographers subject to US laws:
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things


----------



## bribrius (Jan 26, 2015)

invite her to join tpf so she can improve.


----------



## photoguy99 (Jan 26, 2015)

bribrius said:


> invite her to join tpf so she can improve.



She's probably already here!


----------



## Braineack (Jan 26, 2015)

She's still advertising a zip drive.  That inpressive.

using tapatalk.


----------



## e.rose (Jan 26, 2015)

bribrius said:


> invite her to join tpf so she can improve.



No. Don't.

With the response she gave the OP, she's probably TERRIBLE at taking feedback gracefully.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Jan 26, 2015)

Imagine her GIVING feedback...


----------



## photoguy99 (Jan 26, 2015)

Yes we certainly wouldn't want anyone on TPF who can't take negative feedback gracefully!

I am filing this away for future use.


----------

