# This site is falling apart..



## kalmkidd (Sep 13, 2010)

seriously it cracks me. up. its sad i have only been here a few yrs but my has there been changes. 80% of this site must have went out, bought a slr, and came on here and said hey ''im bob the Professional photographer'' i mean im by no means the GREATEST ever but seriously. 90% of threads i open are snap shots my 10yr old brother could take at BEST. and then these people are leaving mean degrading feedback to other new comers.. this whole site actually no this hole photography thing is going down hill is so saturated with wannabes and crap talkers it makes me sick..

after reading some feedback i will tell you this and please just listen

If you have a camera and like to take pictures TAKE THEM, take advice from those you trust, keep practicing, and dont go buying 100's of dollars in stuff until you learn your basics. cause the GOOD ADVICE here is surely disappearing.

i mean mods like cory, Lafoto,members like chiller, etc,etc have to hear where im coming from or maybe i just missed something well i was gone a few months. sorry for my rant but im honestly mind blown by some stuff on here now.


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## Overread (Sep 13, 2010)

You know I see this same rant in almost every large photography forum on the net 

Yes there are more new people than ever before
Yes some people have more disposable income than others - this is even more true in poor financial times when hobbies do well (people want to escape more)
Yes everyone now owns and uses the internet - its no longer the domain of the geek alone
Yes beginners are poorer than established and experienced shooters
No the art and skill in photography isn't getting any less - infact its getting improved all the time.


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## Derrel (Sep 13, 2010)

Chiller left,with some fanfare, a few months back. Cory (is that the right spelling?) hasn't been around much. As to your original post's comments...yeah, there are loads of newbies who are dispensing advice all over the web, telling others how to do things they've learned how to do.


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## tnvol (Sep 13, 2010)

This place is no different than any special interest message board on the internet.  They are all full of smart people, dumb people, assholes, nice people, new people, etc....  It's the internet.  You have to learn to be tolerant.


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## Overread (Sep 13, 2010)

tnvol said:


> It's the *internet*.  You have to learn to be tolerant.



Correction "world" instead of internet - its not something unique to the online environment


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## Derrel (Sep 13, 2010)

Overread said:


> tnvol said:
> 
> 
> > It's the *internet*.  You have to learn to be tolerant.
> ...




This is hardly "the world"...this is a self-selecting group of people, interacting in a far,far different environment than "the world". I know what you were trying to say, but do not agree that this is very much like "the world".

Do we have any Somalian pirates as members here? Any freedom fighters? How about undocumented restaurant workers?


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## Overread (Sep 13, 2010)

IF the internet is not the world then what is it?


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## kalmkidd (Sep 13, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Chiller left,with some fanfare, a few months back. Cory (is that the right spelling?) hasn't been around much. As to your original post's comments...yeah, there are loads of newbies who are dispensing advice all over the web, telling others how to do things they've learned how to do.



yea i see chiller on another forum im on. how have you been bud?


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## Dmitri (Sep 13, 2010)

Overread said:


> IF the internet is not the world then what is it?



The internet offers anonymity, while the world doesn't.


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## Markw (Sep 13, 2010)

Well, I havent been around quite as long as you, but I can tell you that there is still a great wealth of photographic knowledge on this site.  Youre right, alot of photo threads on here are from "noobs", but hey, everyone's got to start somewhere.  If the people on here would actually get off their horse and answer their calls for help and criticism instead of saying "oh, well I know Im better than that" and blowing them off, then these "noobs" might actually get better and you wont be so deigned to look at them.  Just remember where you started.  Maybe you didnt have the internet, but these people do.  When they dont have anywhere to turn to, they need someone to turn to, and really, we should be here for them. I remember being one of them..posting a thread asking what the difference in "mm"s are.  This site is the sole source that has brought me to where I am today, and over such a short time.  So, no.  All the original people arent here, but there are rising stars every day.  The Vets that are still here should be proud of such people.

Mark


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## Derrel (Sep 13, 2010)

Overread said:


> IF the internet is not the world then what is it?



It is **the Internet**.

Most of the world is off-line dude...


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## kalmkidd (Sep 13, 2010)

Markw said:


> Well, I havent been around quite as long as you, but I can tell you that there is still a great wealth of photographic knowledge on this site.  Youre right, alot of photo threads on here are from "noobs", but hey, everyone's got to start somewhere.  If the people on here would actually get off their horse and answer their calls for help and criticism instead of saying "oh, well I know Im better than that" and blowing them off, then these "noobs" might actually get better and you wont be so deigned to look at them.  Just remember where you started.  Maybe you didnt have the internet, but these people do.  When they dont have anywhere to turn to, they need someone to turn to, and really, we should be here for them. I remember being one of them..posting a thread asking what the difference in "mm"s are.  This site is the sole source that has brought me to where I am today, and over such a short time.  So, no.  All the original people arent here, but there are rising stars every day.  The Vets that are still here should be proud of such people.
> 
> Mark



i agree 100% thats the point im trying to make.. instead of saying oh wow that pic sucks, give constructive information, and as for the posters saying im pro, know your place as well.. but hey i cant change anyone..


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## Neil S. (Sep 14, 2010)

What is a "hole site"?

Is that where they dig a well or something?


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## Mustlovedragons (Sep 14, 2010)

(is now wondering if I should be afraid to give advice and opinion to anyone, being new here 'n' all)


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## Rekd (Sep 14, 2010)

Derrel said:


> yeah, there are loads of newbies who are dispensing advice all over the web, telling others how to do things they've learned how to do.



I'm so glad you've noticed my progress.


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## Neil S. (Sep 14, 2010)

Mustlovedragons said:


> (is now wondering if I should be afraid to give advice and opinion to anyone, being new here 'n' all)


 
If you feel strongly that you know what you are talking about, then go for it.

Thats what I do.

If I dont feel that I know, then I wont even try.


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## Sharfy (Sep 14, 2010)

I am an amateur :meh: but willing to learn and get new ideas or may I say take note of constructive criticism..... I am in the forum for less than a month and I know by myself that this is a public forum and everybody can post whatever they want to post. Just being sad with some post I read ..... those who are giving bad comments (all they will give are negative, never "for" an improvement on your work) are those newbies also and those pro's who have superiority attitude. Since this is a PUBLIC FORUM, we must learn how to tolerate and filter comments and must keep in mind that WE MUST LOVE WHAT WE DO and for dedicated/passionate amateurs like me WE HAVE A LONG WAY JOURNEY and THERE IS ALWAYS an IMPROVEMENT if we love what we do


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## Fate (Sep 14, 2010)

kalmkidd said:


> 90% of threads i open are snap shots my 10yr old brother could take at BEST.



But it is always nice when you find that 10% where it really is a great photo. There are some contributors on the site that really do have some talent. And hopefully other people can learn things off them.


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## Sharfy (Sep 14, 2010)

Fate said:


> kalmkidd said:
> 
> 
> > 90% of threads i open are snap shots my 10yr old brother could take at BEST.
> ...


 

Those 90% needs constructive criticism to motivate them/us in making our work better. Newbies post this snapshots to measure and evaluate their works because I myself will love my own shots but then we need opinion and comments from others to see what do we need to improve. 

I feel glad that there are still 10% in the forum who gave motivation and advices to us newbies 

to all newbies like me |this is a public forum, know how to filter those negative comments and if you love, dedicated and passionate with photography.... IMPROVEMENT is always available in what we love to do!


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## Mbnmac (Sep 14, 2010)

The internet, welcome to it


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## IlSan (Sep 14, 2010)

Well...gonna add my two cents worth here too.
Surely there are a lot of people (not just in this forum, but in any) that believe just because they read an article online about something, that they are now the experts. Sadly - these people are not restricted to the virtual reality that is the internet, but do happen to walk around in real life as well (with the same opinion of themselves).

And yes, those of us that know a lot more about certain things should give constructive advice, should try to help those, that are learning along.
And I do hope, that those that are giving proper advice will continue to do so...

But overall I'd have to say, that this forum has kept itself well - considering some of the threads I have read in other forums, where you'd think your standing in kindergarden....
But yeah, just my two cents on this, can fully understand where the OP is coming from on this


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## Garbz (Sep 14, 2010)

Dmitri said:


> The internet offers anonymity, while the world doesn't.



False. The world offers just as much anonymity as you chose to use on the internet. Is Dmitri your real name? It sure sounds like it could be a real name.

But if I come up to you in the street, introduce myself as Bob and tell you your photography sucks I still remain anonymous. You have as much chance of tracing me there as you do via my username here. Both are possible, yet both are under the guise of anonymity right now.

http://www.altogetherdigital.com/images/anon1.jpg Here's a good example of an anonymous internet group who have taken their fight to the real world and retained anonymity.


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## Village Idiot (Sep 14, 2010)

kalmkidd said:


> seriously it cracks me. up. its sad i have only been here a few yrs but my has there been changes. 80% of this site must have went out, bought a slr, and came on here and said hey ''im bob the Professional photographer'' i mean im by no means the GREATEST ever but seriously. 90% of threads i open are snap shots my 10yr old brother could take at BEST. and then these people are leaving mean degrading feedback to other new comers.. this whole site actually no this hole photography thing is going down hill is so saturated with wannabes and crap talkers it makes me sick..
> 
> after reading some feedback i will tell you this and please just listen
> 
> ...


 
*Knock knock* Hello! Update!

This site was sold by the original owner to people who don't even know about photography and just wanted it as a revenue generator. They promised to be around and to interact with the people on the forum and I don't know if anyone's heard from them since that post...well that and them removing the glamour and nude forum because they thought it would offend new sources of revenue.


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## PerfectlyFlawed (Sep 14, 2010)

The C/C has gone to Sh*T too! :thumbdown:


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## Markw (Sep 14, 2010)

...with all due respect..youve only been here for 7 months..

Mark


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## PenguinPhotoWrx (Sep 14, 2010)

So where did the original owners go?  Another forum?


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## Dmitri (Sep 14, 2010)

PenguinPhotoWrx said:


> So where did the original owners go?  Another forum?



He sold it.


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## edouble (Sep 14, 2010)

I really hope that nobody that I have interacted with has the impression from ME that I am anything but a photo hobbyist. I really enjoy photography. I enjoy it enough to dream that it was an atainable career. 

I have posted a few photographs that I have taken which I thought were much better than ps snapshots; I am not saying my photographs are professional. The ONLY gripe I have with this forum is the lack of critique my photographs receive. I frequently see horrible photographs get pages of responses


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## PenguinPhotoWrx (Sep 14, 2010)

Dmitri said:


> PenguinPhotoWrx said:
> 
> 
> > So where did the original owners go? Another forum?
> ...


 
I got that from the previous post, which is why I asked the question.

Did the original forum owners, who I gathered from the previous post were really into photography enough to start a forum, get out of photography on the Internet altogether?  Or did they move on to another forum?  Did they give up photography and move on to horseback riding or something?


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## Overread (Sep 14, 2010)

We still have most of the original moderation team and afew of the site mods from the previous owner - the owner himself (Chase) sold the site and as I gather it pulled out of the internet online forum game - he had up till that point also been greatly preoccupied with other things and not been able to participate in the site that much.

As for the new owners its their site and they may do as they wish, even running it mostly as an ad revenue income, I've no problem with that aspect. The problem is their lack of connection and commitment to the members of the site itself and a lack of overall respect for those members. That coupled with a range of empty promises after their initial take over has bittered many of the older forum members against the site owners. 

It's a sad situation that is hard to recover from - a prime example of this was that the "nude" art section of the site (which was removed without warning) was infact developing into a very interesting and informative section. Such actions deter members from helping to promote and support the site and its features because of the fact that the site owners might just kick the feet out from under them without warning nor reason.


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## ghache (Sep 14, 2010)

It doesnt mean someone says something about you pictures that you have to take it seriously. 
Ive seen some people post comments and critique on some stobist/lightning work and they never had their hands on a strobe
People who comments on wedding pictures being bad but never did a wedding or worked under pressure before and wont take everything into consideration before saying "this is bad"

Most of critique and comments come from personnal preferences and not from a proffessional point of view. Some people will like some stuff that other wont like.

there is a handfull of exceptional photographer on this site who know thier stuff.


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## kalmkidd (Sep 14, 2010)

Sharfy said:


> I am an amateur :meh: but willing to learn and get new ideas or may I say take note of constructive criticism..... I am in the forum for less than a month and I know by myself that this is a public forum and everybody can post whatever they want to post. Just being sad with some post I read ..... those who are giving bad comments (all they will give are negative, never "for" an improvement on your work) are those newbies also and those pro's who have superiority attitude. Since this is a PUBLIC FORUM, we must learn how to tolerate and filter comments and must keep in mind that WE MUST LOVE WHAT WE DO and for dedicated/passionate amateurs like me WE HAVE A LONG WAY JOURNEY and THERE IS ALWAYS an IMPROVEMENT if we love what we do




exactly and instead  new comers (NOT ALL) give stupid/mean comments instead of good CC.


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## Dmitri (Sep 14, 2010)

kalmkidd said:


> Sharfy said:
> 
> 
> > I am an amateur :meh: but willing to learn and get new ideas or may I say take note of constructive criticism..... I am in the forum for less than a month and I know by myself that this is a public forum and everybody can post whatever they want to post. Just being sad with some post I read ..... those who are giving bad comments (all they will give are negative, never "for" an improvement on your work) are those newbies also and those pro's who have superiority attitude. Since this is a PUBLIC FORUM, we must learn how to tolerate and filter comments and must keep in mind that WE MUST LOVE WHAT WE DO and for dedicated/passionate amateurs like me WE HAVE A LONG WAY JOURNEY and THERE IS ALWAYS an IMPROVEMENT if we love what we do
> ...



I've been on this site for a few years I think, and to be honest - that's the way it goes. Since I have been here there has been stuff like that, but sprinkled in there were always a couple of really good ones (who weren't jerks about it). Ironically, over the years I have also seen the multitude of "noobs giving bad cc!" posts.

I'll agree that the owners and mods have lost interest and caring for the site, but to be honest - the cc seems the way it always has. Too many people wanting cc on their own photos without offering it to others.


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## Overread (Sep 14, 2010)

Dmitri said:


> the cc seems the way it always has. Too many people wanting cc on their own photos without offering it to others.



I would agree with that - I've seen a lot of people asking but not giving. Worst two things with that I find are:

1) Most ask without posting anything but the photos - an act I find a little obtuse in some ways but also foolish because they fail to put up any details either techincal or artistic leaving the comments they can get limited in how constructive they can be for that person

2) Giving C&C is also a great way to learn- but asking and not giving they are cutting themselves out of a great learning curve and tool. There is a reason art, music, writing etc... groups have group critique and exchanges and its because you can learn from the act of being critical over another work


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## Heck (Sep 14, 2010)

One thing I learned is a bad forum is better than no forum. If I had to learn this by going out into the real world and dealing with people in person then I would learn only a fraction of what little I know already. You just can't walk out your house and chat with a guy who shoots macros in England. No matter the ups and downs of this or other forums you have to be in awe of possibilities that the internet world brings into our homes. They gave Al Gore the peace prize for the wrong thing! ( just joking about Al lol ).


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## JG_Coleman (Sep 14, 2010)

As far as gripes about C & Cs, I've gotta say... it's tough sometimes.

Probably 50% of the C & C's I open aren't bad photographs, technically speaking... neither do I consider them good, though. The technical proficiency may be there, but I find the subject matter to simply be rather boring. There's no real critique to make in that case because it's not bad for any technical reasons, really. There aren't many ways to really make it better without me saying," Take pictures of stuff more interesting.... these are putting me to sleep." That's the truth, but it's not constructive or even all that helpful. And, hey, who says that the measure of what is or isn't interesting begins and ends with me, you know?

I have that reaction on _many_ of the C/C threads I open... and those are cases in which I don't reply. I have a feeling that this is the same for many other forum members, too. The C/C threads that seem to ramp up many views but get no comments... you can likely bet this is why. The photos aren't technically all that flawed (usually), but they just lack any real appeal whatsoever... they don't interest people, and so people don't feel compelled to add their two cents about how they could be improved.

Being able to self-critique is a HUGE part of growing in the craft of photography... as in most other artistic crafts. People need to at least be able to "self-filter" to _some_ degree. Sure, many individuals are very new to the craft (days or weeks, sometimes)... but we all look at photography all day long in magazines, newspapers, advertising, etc, etc. Many people here that might give C/Cs expect at least some rudimentary ability on the part of the posters to honestly ask themselves "Is this really a good photo, at all?" and "Is this even worth posting?"


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## mrmacedonian (Sep 14, 2010)

One thing that I've notice in my own work and could apply to others' is foresight and planning. 

I've done an extensive amount of 3d modeling primarily in Maya and when I sit down to model an object or scene its important to have, in my head, the finished product and then create it. Often times in photography I lose this, though I'm not sure why.

Its important that when you compose a shot and release the shutter, you've put in the foresight and planning into the shot. Most of the time I'll take a photography then look at it and think, what is it about what I saw in the viewfinder that led me to capture it.. to often I don't know.

This is something that really shows in the photographs people post, and when that is very obviously lacking it makes it much more difficult to C&C outside of technical parameters. When a shot shows thought, a purpose and a goal this makes the viewer and commenter much more capable of evaluating the product.

When posting for C&C, I do my best to provide the thought process and goal so others can see if and by how much I've missed the mark, both technically and artistically. I think if more posters brought some more background behind the shutter click others would be able to C&C in a much more substantial manner. Often times people seem like they take a picture, don't know why or what they like about it, then they post it asking for others to tell them what's good about it; what makes them like it.

Personally I think as I obtain a better understanding of exposure and composition, I slowly gain this ability to see what I want and then achieve it.


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## SageMark (Sep 14, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > IF the internet is not the world then what is it?
> ...


 

:lmao:True!


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## Josh66 (Sep 14, 2010)

SageMark said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...


Prove it.


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## Joves (Sep 14, 2010)

Well hell I havent been here for quite awhile and, I see this type of thread is up again. It seems to pop up quite often. As far as C&C it seems many arent looking for that, what they are looking for is the atta boy! thing. If you give something constructive with tips many people percieve that as mean. Generally I dont look for C&C but, only post what I am half satisfied with. Which I rarely post photos anyhow, that is just me and Im a picky bastard about my own work.


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## Josh66 (Sep 14, 2010)

Yeah - I never post anything that I'm not happy with.  There are only two reasons I post pictures -

1- Hey, look at this cool picture I got!  Yea!

2- I think this is pretty good, but there might be room for improvement.  What do you think?  What should I do differently next time?


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## LokiZ (Sep 14, 2010)

kalmkidd said:


> 80% of this site must have went out, bought a slr, and came on here and said hey ''im bob the Professional photographer''



You know, the same could be said about those who own computers.   You know those who use their computer for the handful of things that they either do for work or do at home.

80% of this world must have went out, bought a computer, and got on line saying hey ''I'm Bob, I no how to use computers.''

But do they use their computers in "Manual" mode?  I mean really, think about it.  All these people who buy computers and then, GASP, have to turn right around and by software for them as well in order to make them do anything.  <shakes head> That is not to say that software is not needed, but it is the point and shoot in comparison.  

But... If your not proficient in a programming language and making your own software to use on your computer that does not mean you can't make a living using a computer.  In fact you can be darn good at it even though you use software made by someone else.  You can even be a professional using a computer to a fraction of its potential.

Just think about that a little bit.

This is a place to learn from others regardless of the level they are at AND regardless of the level those that post help are at.  I would say I guess if any of us can't deal with those terms there is not really anyone holding a gun to our skull making our decision to stay for us.

You have to take the good with the bad, I see more good then bad and that is why I am still here.

Just my opinion.


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## Sharfy (Sep 14, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> Yeah - I never post anything that I'm not happy with. There are only two reasons I post pictures -
> 
> 1- Hey, look at this cool picture I got! Yea!
> 
> 2- I think this is pretty good, but there might be room for improvement. What do you think? What should I do differently next time?


 


Exactly! Newbies like me will love our own work but then we need some eyes to watch and look at our work so that we can get advices on how can we improve it .

(Negatice CC's comes from newbies also and "some" of those pro's who have superiority attitude) Newbies must know how to filter comments and apply those helpful comments.


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## JG_Coleman (Sep 14, 2010)

JG_Coleman said:


> As far as gripes about C & Cs, I've gotta say... it's tough sometimes.
> 
> Probably 50% of the C & C's I open aren't bad photographs, technically speaking... neither do I consider them good, though. The technical proficiency may be there, but I find the subject matter to simply be rather boring. There's no real critique to make in that case because it's not bad for any technical reasons, really. There aren't many ways to really make it better without me saying," Take pictures of stuff more interesting.... these are putting me to sleep." That's the truth, but it's not constructive or even all that helpful. And, hey, who says that the measure of what is or isn't interesting begins and ends with me, you know?
> 
> ...



Just another thought: a way to illustrate my last point.

Everyone here has inevitably seen American Idol at some point in the past few years.... even if you can't stand the show, chances are you've still managed to be sucked into seeing an episode or at least a clip or two of it... whether on TV or YouTube or the news, or whatever.

Anyhow, you know those people that Simon is so famous for crapping all over?  You know why?   Because they were literally so terrible that they truly, truly, truly shouldn't have needed a panel of judges to tell them so.

I mean, everyone here... we are all reasonably intelligent people.  We've got a clue or two.  Now really... when you see people get onto American Idol and they are so bad that it is laughable... aren't you moved to say," Are you kidding me?  Why are they even there?"  Forget trying to be an "american idol"... they haven't even escalated to the level of a bad singer yet... what they do could barely even be passed off as singing, at all.  They are so bad that even an experienced singer couldn't set them straight, or even begin to, without a bare minimum of a one month course concerning the absolute, bare-bones basics of voice and _learning to listen to one's self_.

Well, the same thing applies to many posts that ask for C&C.  Sometimes viewers take a look at the pics and think,"  Seriously????  Are you really posting these for critique?"

Look, I'm not saying it happens all the time... I'm really not.  I've posted my share of replies to C&C threads and been happy to do so in those situations... whether I was just sayin "Nice shots" or doing my best to constructively inform.  But sometimes I open C&C threads and my reaction is no different than yours when a terrible singer at the American Idol try-outs belts out a blood-curdling cover of a Janet Jackson song that makes you want to shoot yourself.  And here's the thing:  Most people that watch American Idol aren't singers themselves (neither am I)... yet we can both sit there on the couch and say," R u f-ing kidding me?" It's not a superiority complex at work, guys!  _They really are verifiably terrible and anyone with half a brain can tell that._  They are bad on such a fundamental level that a person with no experience whatsoever should be able to identify them as terrible.  The same applies to soooo many photographs posted for C&C.

When you're at that level, you don't have to get a panel of forum reviewers to tell you that.... when we are talking about some of the most fundamental flaws of photography that can possibly exist... which anyone from me, to my point-and-shooting Mom, to my 90-year-old grandmother could tell just by looking at any given photograph that is set in front of them.

Yet, so often, when people post here for C&C... these very basic principles of a good photo -principles which we ought to be able to identify simply by looking at good photos in our everyday life- are somehow entirely ignored.

"What do you think of these?", the post asks.  The bigger question I sometimes think to myself is," What do _you_ think of these... honestly???"

So much of the ignored C&Cs are a result of posters not self-filtering their own work.  That's what I'm really trying to articulate here.

So for all future members... before you post a C&C.... before you ask the forum "What do you think of these?"... _ask yourself that question_.  See if, all by yourself, you're capable of generating enough critique to hit the drawing board and do better.  You'd be amazed how little help you need from the forum... and how much attention you'll get with your C&C posts if you post material that really deserves a look... that really deserves someone's time and insight.

EDIT*****

And btw... if you ignore this advice and go posting a photographic version of William Hung's "She Bangs"... don't be surprised if some people can't resist giving a "Simon"-like response.  Not that it's not mean... but honestly... just like Will Hung.... you should've seen it coming a mile away... in which case, you could've easily avoided the entire scenario.


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## Neil S. (Sep 14, 2010)

Heck said:


> They gave Al Gore the peace prize for the wrong thing! ( just joking about Al lol ).


 
Dude...

No politics, please.


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## IlSan (Sep 14, 2010)

@ JG_Coleman

Can I stand and applaude? Well, no one would know 

Really really have to agree with this, 100% - 110%... .
Especially about the shooting yourself bit when watching American Idol with some of the "contestants".


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## tnvol (Sep 15, 2010)

JG_Coleman said:


> JG_Coleman said:
> 
> 
> > As far as gripes about C & Cs, I've gotta say... it's tough sometimes.
> ...



Wow.  That's a way to look at it.  I would have to agree.  Good post.


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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)

One of the worst moves I've ever seen is the site owner/s/mods caving to the retard that don't know where to post. It used to be beginners discussion and people just could manage to post in the gallery so everything ended up in the discussion section.

Instead of enforcing the way the site was setup, they caved and made it beginner's discussion and gallery. It's a giant dumping ground. Everything goes there. People rarely actually visit the gallery forums, which you can tell by comparing views of those photos to those of the post in the dumping ground.

That and depending on people to make an educated decision about where to place post was another bad decision. Beginners, not so beginners, discussion, and equipment are fairly ambiguous. On any given day, you'd end up with 10 "what camera should I buy" threads mixes across all four forums.

What I'm sayin' is, it's all just a laughing matter to me.


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## Scatterbrained (Sep 15, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> One of the worst moves I've ever seen is the site owner/s/mods caving to the retard that don't know where to post. It used to be beginners discussion and people just could manage to post in the gallery so everything ended up in the discussion section.
> 
> Instead of enforcing the way the site was setup, they caved and made it beginner's discussion and gallery. It's a giant dumping ground. Everything goes there. People rarely actually visit the gallery forums, which you can tell by comparing views of those photos to those of the post in the dumping ground.
> 
> ...


I never really search individual sections unless I'm looking for something, otherwise I just use the new post button.:blushing:
I assumed that the beginners forum got all of the traffic because most of the posters here are beginners. :mrgreen:


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## bigtwinky (Sep 15, 2010)

Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I haven't been here for an enternity, but enough to see many of the changes that people are referring to.  I am not a professional, hell, I've been shooting for not even 2 years.  I'm someone who likes to comment.  What can I say.

I've read in this thread some people saying that CC has gone down, that people with knowledge should help others by giving CC.  The thing is, every bit of CC is good CC.  Doesnt matter if you are new, a pro, amateur, whatever.  People need to start being smart about what they post.  I find there is too much hippy loving going on and everyone wanting to sing cumbaya around someone's photo.  When we try and get people to post less "omg this rox" comments and be more thoughful, people chime in saying "its nice to say nice things, the world is full of hate".  If you want nice things said, go ask your friends what they think of your images.

I've seen (and been the target of) some posters who when you give honest CC on their images, they get all defensive.  They get all bitchy about how you are trying to bring them down, how you are evil and dont care to help, how you think you have an ego... when replies like this happen, it kind of makes someone not want to give CC.  These situations are happening more and more.  

I believe the two points are tied in.   There are more and more drive by "nice shot" posters, thus giving people a false sense that their image is actually good that when one person comes in and gives something negative (but constructive), they get bitched at for being a meanie.

So yes, I find the site is going downhill.  There are still some great people here that are fun to interact with and some people whose opinions I value, which is why I come back.  I still throw in my CC when I see that I can add something constructive, even with the hippies trying to paint a rainbow on everything.


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## supraman215 (Sep 15, 2010)

Everyone starts as a beginner few make it to expert. What's funny is when I see a lot of obvious pros posting their pics for C&C in the beginner forums, sandbagging. In the beginner forum I expect to see crappy pics a 10 year old could take, so what? 

I've been here a couple years myself and what I really don't like to see, and to prevent this is not up to the moderators it's up to the users, is the flame wars like 2-3 per day, it's sick and it's getting worse and helps no one. It always starts the same "Canon vs. Nikon?" and "Good enough to go pro?" or "Doing my first wedding this weekend what lens should I get?" are a couple of starters. I have no problems with these posts, just what sometimes erupts from them. There's lots of Anger out there. :hug::


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## Dmitri (Sep 15, 2010)

I like these kinds of discussions:

"Looking for honest cc!!"
"It's umm.. very blurry."
"yeah I was having trouble focusing. I'm looking for cc on the photo, not the focusing!"
*facepalm*

I love those kinds. 'Ignore all the bad, and give me honest cc'.


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## inTempus (Sep 15, 2010)

For all those that think the site is going "downhill"... how far until it hits the bottom?  Or did it just take a dip and here in the dip it shall stay until a committee decides how to fix everything?

I don't think the site is going down hill, I think it is what it is.  How profound, eh?

Just like all forums, regardless of the subject matter, it has a constant flow of newbies.  Hundreds of thousands of people every day step up to DSLR's for various reasons... and given the popularity of the Internet and this boards position on most search results, they gravitate here.

As such, we get an endless number of redundant "what should I buy" threads, and people posting random pictures of silly stuff like pens, coffee mugs, pets, or other items found around the house asking for critique.  

That's the top half of the board.

Then you have the ego's on the bottom half.  I've discovered "artists" in general are pains in the rear end.  Many have the social skills God gave a rock.  They are argumentative, arrogant, opinionated and are often times bullies.  Egos clash, flame wars ensue, snotty comments are made and many threads wander horribly off course.

But then the truth is, I see the same behavior on forums for other dedicated subjects.  

Car forums?  OMG, ruthless egotistical behavior... they are the epitome of fanboyism.  

Firearms?  They view newbies much like they do around here... "shut up, sit down, learn from me as I know everything".  They are also horrible fanboys...

Political forums?  Total chaos.  I swear, if you gave these people sharp objects and put them in a room together it would be a bloodbath.  

About the only place I've found relative peace and quite that's conducive to actual friendly conversation as been some watch forums I frequent.

I don't think TPF is going downhill, I think it's doing the best it can given what it has to work with - us.


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## supraman215 (Sep 15, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.
> 
> I haven't been here for an enternity, but enough to see many of the changes that people are referring to.  I am not a professional, hell, I've been shooting for not even 2 years.  I'm someone who likes to comment.  What can I say.
> 
> ...



This is GREAT! This touches on what I was saying but on a different topic, C&C. I've noticed how people internalize criticism of their photos, and get very defensive when you criticize their work, even though they asked for it. that's why I'm always careful when people post if they don't specifically say C&C or comments welcome I will not comment.


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## Bram (Sep 15, 2010)

Dude, pop a pill and go join a different forum. I have gotten great advice here and helped some people out as well (I'd like to think so.)


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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)

inTempus said:


> For all those that think the site is going "downhill"... how far until it hits the bottom? Or did it just take a dip and here in the dip it shall stay until a committee decides how to fix everything?
> 
> I don't think the site is going down hill, I think it is what it is. How profound, eh?
> 
> ...


 
Sorry guy, you're wrong. So much infact, that I decided to draw you a picture.







:er:

:mrgreen:


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## bigtwinky (Sep 15, 2010)

I think we should have some sort of Pact, you know, a list of guidelines about giving and receiving CC here at TPF that can be used by all! 

:lmao:


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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> I think we should have some sort of Pact, you know, a list of guidelines about giving and receiving CC here at TPF that can be used by all!
> 
> :lmao:


 
I promise to stop insulting members whilst I'm drunk.


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## Sw1tchFX (Sep 15, 2010)

this is why i generally stick to the equipment area, it's kind of objective, and there's always talk about equipment.


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## Scatterbrained (Sep 15, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> Sorry guy, you're wrong. So much infact, that I decided to draw you a picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:salute:


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## inTempus (Sep 15, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should have some sort of Pact, you know, a list of guidelines about giving and receiving CC here at TPF that can be used by all!
> ...


I knew you were a drunk.


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## inTempus (Sep 15, 2010)

Sw1tchFX said:


> this is why i generally stick to the equipment area, it's kind of objective, and there's always talk about equipment.


Have you read any good reviews of the 1D4?


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## KKJUN (Sep 15, 2010)




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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)




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## PerfectlyFlawed (Sep 15, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> I've read in this thread some people saying that CC has gone down, that people with knowledge should help others by giving CC.  The thing is, every bit of CC is good CC.  Doesnt matter if you are new, a pro, amateur, whatever.  People need to start being smart about what they post.
> 
> .



:thumbup:


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## Infidel (Sep 15, 2010)

supraman215 said:


> Everyone starts as a beginner few make it to expert. What's funny is when I see a lot of obvious pros posting their pics for C&C in the beginner forums, sandbagging. In the beginner forum I expect to see crappy pics a 10 year old could take, so what?




Interesting observation...consistent with the notion that the beginner forum is a dumping ground. Lots of studio/professional shots in there (clearly made with multiple off-camera lights)...lots of talk about "going pro" (there's a pro forum). I would think these types of posts are certainly "beyond the basics" or pro gallery appropriate. Nevertheless, this doesn't seem to scare off the William Hung "she bangs" type of posts either. Also, lots of "look at my dirty, OOF, half-dressed kid doing something I think is cute" posts (there's a "just for fun" section). 

Not getting on a high horse, but I have NEVER posted a photograph here, and this is why: From studying the photographs and comments of others, I tend to...

1. Know that my photographs are flawed (self critique..see above post by JG Coleman).
2. Attempt to learn from my mistakes.
3. Try to implement what I have learned in order to improve.

So far, I am still learning something every time I shoot, and I don't think I need the input from others at this stage (in other words, I know when my photos suck, which is often enough...don't need to post them here to be told so).


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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)

Mostly, I post crap photos in the beginner's section because if it's a largely unmoderated dumping ground, I want to use it for it's intended purpose.


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## inTempus (Sep 15, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> Mostly, I post crap photos in the beginner's section because if it's a largely unmoderated dumping ground, I want to use it for it's intended purpose.


I fully understand.

Can I get a critique on this shot while I have your attention?


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## Buckster (Sep 15, 2010)

inTempus said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Mostly, I post crap photos in the beginner's section because if it's a largely unmoderated dumping ground, I want to use it for it's intended purpose.
> ...


While a tomato with a woodie is interesting, the horizon's not straight, it needs to be HDR'd to within an inch of it's life, and you should have used an orange with a similar feature, held with the right hand, in the rain, at night, using two eBay 30ws strobes, a 40" gold reflector, and anything sold by Gary Fong. Oh yeah, and the tomato is WAY oversharpened - so much so that it's gone past sharp, sharper and ultra-sharp, all the way into "blurry" again.  You should clone out that distracting thumbnail.


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## kundalini (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't have time to read long winded rebuttals.  Please make them short, sweet and to the point in the future.

Thanks.


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## KKJUN (Sep 15, 2010)

And it looks like it could use some vignetting, and some funky film-style-effects.


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## bigtwinky (Sep 15, 2010)

you suck


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## kundalini (Sep 15, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## Village Idiot (Sep 15, 2010)

Buckster said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > Village Idiot said:
> ...


 
Actually, it needs to be shot with Nikon and if you're using cheap speedlights because that's all you can afford, a shoot through umbrella, and not the exact awesomeness I own, it's utter crap.


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## inTempus (Sep 15, 2010)

Buckster said:


> While a tomato with a woodie is interesting, the horizon's not straight, it needs to be HDR'd to within an inch of it's life, and you should have used an orange with a similar feature, held with the right hand, in the rain, at night, using two eBay 30ws strobes, a 40" gold reflector, and anything sold by Gary Fong. Oh yeah, and the tomato is WAY oversharpened - so much so that it's gone past sharp, sharper and ultra-sharp, all the way into "blurry" again.  You should clone out that distracting thumbnail.



Is this better?


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## Overread (Sep 15, 2010)

you need to tilt the camera the shot is far too straight


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## Derrel (Sep 15, 2010)

inTempus said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > While a tomato with a woodie is interesting, the horizon's not straight, it needs to be HDR'd to within an inch of it's life, and you should have used an orange with a similar feature, held with the right hand, in the rain, at night, using two eBay 30ws strobes, a 40" gold reflector, and anything sold by Gary Fong. Oh yeah, and the tomato is WAY oversharpened - so much so that it's gone past sharp, sharper and ultra-sharp, all the way into "blurry" again.  You should clone out that distracting thumbnail.
> ...



Add some noise to make it look like it was shot at ISO 3,200.


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## tnvol (Sep 15, 2010)

This thread has given me a new perspective on critique.  I have been one of those people that hasn't given a lot of C&C in the past simply because I never wanted to come across as being a prick.  If I open a post with an image that I feel is not very good I usually just don't comment at all.  When someone posts pictures of their children or family or anything else very close to them it's hard for me to pick it apart.  The same goes for my own pictures of my family.  I guess I need to get over that.  Some very good posts in this thread.


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## pbelarge (Sep 15, 2010)

I think the critique on critiquing needs to be critiqued


Where are the critique police?????????????????


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## Infidel (Sep 15, 2010)

tnvol said:


> This thread has given me a new perspective on critique.  I have been one of those people that hasn't given a lot of C&C in the past simply because I never wanted to come across as being a prick.  If I open a post with an image that I feel is not very good I usually just don't comment at all.  When someone posts pictures of their children or family or anything else very close to them it's hard for me to pick it apart.  The same goes for my own pictures of my family.  I guess I need to get over that.  Some very good posts in this thread.



I think there is an important distinction to be made between critiquing the photograph and critiquing the subject. Pointing out that a photograph has flaws is different than telling someone that their kid is ugly (that's kinda off limits around here). Also, one can often avoid being perceived as a prick by being a bit diplomatic in their approach. Granted, there are those who are hyper-sensitive to criticism, thus it baffles me that they ask for it in the first place. I guess instead of requesting C&C, they should just ask for empty praise (and reserve the right to complain about 137 views with only 1 reply).


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## bigtwinky (Sep 15, 2010)

Another shining example of why people dont critique much anymore...

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...m-photo-gallery/217632-wedding-9-11-10-a.html


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## Mauravdl (Sep 16, 2010)

hmm - I'm pretty danged new to photography as a hobby and haven't felt I could offer much to people yet. Sometimes I can tell what I liked in particular or didn't or I would change but I often can't tel someone how to do it. Maybe that's okay after all.

As a newbie, I want to say I came here to learn. I appreciate the time people take to tell me what I can do to improve and I try to never post just "here's a photo, what do you think?" posts. Usually I have either something to relate about the shooting situation or a specific question and I try to ask it.

I know from the writing world that each time criticism is offered, the offerer takes a chance that the person they are trying to help actually wants help and note strokes of the ego. The reactions can be bad sometimes if the person didn't really want criticism and I know how wearying that can be since it's not like it's anyone's JOB here to help newbs like me.

So thanks! Now to pay it forward as best I can so far


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## Cam_Assassin (Sep 16, 2010)

This thread is falling apart. It's now too blurry and too much noise. It started off very sharp, focus and had good exposure....then it was PP to death.


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## Sharfy (Sep 16, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Another shining example of why people dont critique much anymore...
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...m-photo-gallery/217632-wedding-9-11-10-a.html


 

All I can say I am a newbie but I know how to handle criticism, filter it as much as I can for my learning. 

This thread is pretty obvious that It will recieved those critcism and he must listen and learn from it (He was paid for that work). 

But a critique should also be constructive enough. 

*(You will get better if you keep trying. Don't let a rough reception here discourage you*.) -Derrels comment is what I like there. 

(You are not good but keep on trying there are more worst than your work posted in this forum)

but but but.... I am a newbie and we should know when to ask payment for our service. 



Infidel said:


> I think there is an important distinction to be made between critiquing the photograph and critiquing the subject. Pointing out that a photograph has flaws is different than telling someone that their kid is ugly (that's kinda off limits around here). Also, one can often avoid being perceived as a prick by being a bit diplomatic in their approach. Granted, there are those who are hyper-sensitive to criticism, thus it baffles me that they ask for it in the first place. I guess instead of requesting C&C, they should just ask for empty praise (and reserve the right to complain about 137 views with only 1 reply).


 
I myself is a sensitive guy but I do always welcome criticism because I know how to filter those which can help me in improving.

hahaha I am really getting crazy with this C&C! 

- Don't post if obviously you will get bad feedback (evaluate your work)

- Label your post "how can I improve this"

get ready to get different feedback because this is a public forum and you will get many helpful and discouragement from newbies also (pretending to be pro) and those pro's who have superiority attitude (NOT ALL).....

Photography Beginners' Forum & Photo Gallery - means we need help because we are newbies and we want to learn from you guys who are in photography for years or may I say decades.....

I think this is not falling because I get a lot of ideas and help here while studying outside this forum.


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## Flash Harry (Sep 16, 2010)

I like the comments regarding the "Superiority" of the Pro's, do you lot  think most pro's picked up a camera yesterday, because that's how it  comes across, I was a hobby photographer for twenty years plus before I  decided to make a career out of this game. Being older meant assisting  was pretty much out of the question, I could hand print black n white  but had no experience with colour hand printing, I enrolled in college  and for two years learnt as much as I could.

A good portfolio is important to clients, but knowing how you get a good  portfolio is equally important, before college, like several here my  knowledge came from reading and shooting, some things were still  confusing, college tidied these issues up in my case, my portfolio  improved. A good portfolio does not come from shooting millions of shots  to pick out the 12 or so good ones, think about the shot before you  press the shutter release, plan the shoot and take what you need, I  don't shoot a thousand at a wedding, I don't need to, I also don't need  the extra work involved in PP, what I do need is a ninety percent  capture rate, my knowledge gets me this, I shoot accordingly.

Critique, no-one likes it, I rarely give it, but see posters who were  asking which camera to buy 3 months back, giving out big stick, usually  wrong or at best confused, then others who never say what is wrong,  totally unhelpful. If you don't want or can't take critique don't ask  for it. In two years college every single image I submitted was given  critique, over colour mostly, the reason was to train a students eye,  even though my colour vision is fine the brain compensates for casts, so  knowing what your looking for is the key.

A lot of those with experience decided to leave due to being flamed by  inexperienced newbs, who, like the majority of this internet breed,  think they know it all after being on a few fora or having read some  amateur photography mag and went out and bought their consumer SLR, this  was a grave loss to the forum so if your willing to learn shut up and  take the crit in the way its meant, so you learn from mistakes, and, if  you have little experience, also shut up, as the confusion spread by  those who don't understand the written word very well is also  detrimental to the forum as a whole.

Pro's have no superiority complex because they shoot with Pro spec  cameras, have suffered the education system or any other reason, cameras  are cameras, knowledge is about learning from mistakes and not making  them again, if imparting some of that knowledge upsets ten people and  teaches one person something of value then that's a success.

I look in here every day, see all kinds of posts talking of white  balance, when its actually a colour cast, totally different things,  unless the cast is caused by not using a filter with film or white  balance correction in camera when shooting under artificial light. Then  there's the multitude of posts referring to blown highlights on someones  shot when the numpty is sat looking at a laptop screen or cheap  uncalibrated monitor, these are just two instances where two words can  help. Shut Up. Then, as others have already mentioned, its the shot of  the sidewalk/tomato/oof anything, you don't want critique on these, the  recycle bin is the only remedy, bin it and shoot something of interest  before showing it off on the net.

My final say on this lot, is that just because you have a few lucky  shots under your belt lets refrain from calling yourselves  Photographers, building websites containing ten images and calling  yourselves names like "creative photography" or other such $hit while  asking the most simple questions on sites like this, your simply not  such and such photography, your simply another camera user till your  knowledge expands considerably, remember if you can't CONSISTENTLY  produce images like those you show prospective clients, YOU ARE NOT A  PHOTOGRAPHER. H


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## bigtwinky (Sep 16, 2010)

I disagree with the last statement.  Anyone with a camera is a photographer.  Just as anyone with a car and a liscence is a driver.  You have good ones, you have bad ones and a select few are professionals.  But they are all drivers at different levels.


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## Scatterbrained (Sep 16, 2010)

Flash Harry said:


> ....My final say on this lot, is that just because you have a few lucky  shots under your belt lets refrain from calling yourselves  Photographers, building websites containing ten images and calling  yourselves names like "creative photography" or other such $hit while  asking the most simple questions on sites like this, your simply not  such and such photography, your simply another camera user till your  knowledge expands considerably, remember if you can't CONSISTENTLY  produce images like those you show prospective clients, YOU ARE NOT A  PHOTOGRAPHER. H


 This is so funny because it's so true, when I first logged onto a photography forum I thought it weird that all of these "pros" seemed to not know things that I knew even though I had just started, then I realized that a lot of people will register as "azphoto or BDphotography" with watermarked images and everything even though they just bought their camera. 



bigtwinky said:


> I disagree with the last statement.  Anyone with a camera is a photographer.  Just as anyone with a car and a liscence is a driver.  You have good ones, you have bad ones and a select few are professionals.  But they are all drivers at different levels.


I like this analogy, but feel the term "photographer" carries with it the connotation of someone who takes it seriously either from a work or hobby prospective.  If you asked someone taking a picture with their phone if they thought they were a photographer they'd likely say no, they are just taking a picture.  Technically they are still a photographer, as they are engaging in the act of photography, but they do not see themselves that way.   Hell, when people ask me if I'm a photographer I say no, that it's just a hobby; as the implication is that I somehow earn an income from taking pictures.


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## Sharfy (Sep 16, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> I disagree with the last statement.  Anyone with a camera is a photographer.  Just as anyone with a car and a liscence is a driver.  You have good ones, you have bad ones and a select few are professionals.  But they are all drivers at different levels.




all of my friends have SLR and we love taking photos with each others and we all begin with zero knowledge with photography but look at them now 14 out of 19 are in demand photographers and 5 of us were left behind 

there is no impossible when you are willing to learn from good people and real pro's who motivates your passion for a certain hobby you want to upgrade! ( you can never tell a newbie if which way he could go but I think there is no way of getting worse when your passionate enough and you love photography)

_I will repost my comment before in one thread ---- hihihi

_Yeay! me myself can take constructive criticism but not those negative comments from newbies who are trying hard to be "I am a pro, I am in Photography for long time"! 

I can see 30% are professionals in attitude and in the line of photography. I salute them for giving us inspiration, honest but motivating comments 

and a big HELLO to those try 65% newbies who pretends to be a pro (LOL)

maybe someone will ask me where is the 5%? this are the professionals who are making discouragement. LOL

Bigtwinky your one of those 30% ^__^ our big thanks to you in behalf of newbies


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## bigtwinky (Sep 16, 2010)

Scatterbrained said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with the last statement. Anyone with a camera is a photographer. Just as anyone with a car and a liscence is a driver. You have good ones, you have bad ones and a select few are professionals. But they are all drivers at different levels.
> ...


 
Great point.  :thumbup:


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## Overread (Sep 16, 2010)

You can undestand all the technical, compositinal, mechanical theory you want - heck you can know the ins and outs of a camera and the art of photography and still fail to be a pro.

In fact its often shown that hobbyists are often just as if not more skilled than those who work at something as their profession (within limits mostly limited to the arts but not totally). A professional has somehow come to be the term used to describe (at the same time) both those who earn and income through their photography and those who have a great level of skill with the camera. 
The two definations are used together (by most people) and yet refer to two very different groups of people, as well of course to those who mange to cover both aspects. 

There are pros out there who don't know all the details of the camera -they don't know the best 3rd party radio poppers on the market - they don't know all the ins and outs of flash control - heck they might not even know what ISO means or just what aperture is. The key however is that they are able to produce a product on demand for a client that they and their client are pleased with and willing to pay for. 

Similarly you can be the next Andsel Adams of photography but be unable to deliver a product or unable to market yourself and thus not make an income from you work.


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## Derrel (Sep 16, 2010)

Flash Harry said:


> I like the comments regarding the "Superiority" of the Pro's, do you lot  think most pro's picked up a camera yesterday, because that's how it  comes across, I was a hobby photographer for twenty years plus before I  decided to make a career out of this game. Being older meant assisting  was pretty much out of the question, I could hand print black n white  but had no experience with colour hand printing, I enrolled in college  and for two years learnt as much as I could.
> 
> A good portfolio is important to clients, but knowing how you get a good  portfolio is equally important, before college, like several here my  knowledge came from reading and shooting, some things were still  confusing, college tidied these issues up in my case, my portfolio  improved. A good portfolio does not come from shooting millions of shots  to pick out the 12 or so good ones, think about the shot before you  press the shutter release, plan the shoot and take what you need, I  don't shoot a thousand at a wedding, I don't need to, I also don't need  the extra work involved in PP, what I do need is a ninety percent  capture rate, my knowledge gets me this, I shoot accordingly.
> 
> ...



Flash Harry,
    Normally you are the master of understatement, with brief, pointed responses that I find myself agreeing with about 92.7% of the time...but today you made a lengthy post that really taught me a lot more about you. Thanks for the insights and considered opinions. I like straight shooters,and you sir are one! Excellent comments,all in the Flash Harry style. I'd buy you a pint right this minute, if we weren't an ocean apart!


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## Amocholes (Sep 16, 2010)

Well said Harry!


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## GeneralBenson (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm going to have to agree that this site is falling apart. Over the years as I have progressed in my skill, this site has had less and less to offer me. NOw as a fulltime working professional, I find little here for me. I'm not trying to sound all "I'm better than everyone", but I'm just saying that I think this forum needs to do more to hold on to it's professional and advanced amateur users. I've watched over the years as people grow, learn more, become more of an expert, and then leave. Then I did the same thing. I feel like there's just no place on this forum for knowledgeable/advanced people.  

There's the begginer's forum, where advanced shooters should be able to help out those who are trying to learn. But anything you say either gets drowned out by all the other beginner offering critque that they aren't qualified to make. Or you get ragarded as negative when you bring critique into a conversation that was nothing but high-flying compliments about how everything is great and awesome. Or any valid critique offered is dismissed as "style" by beginner who don't have a firm enough grasp on the basic rules of photography to start breaking them yet.

Then you've got the BTB forum, where advanced shooteres should be able to come and discuss with other advanced shooters, and have civil conversation. But instead, at any given time 50% of the topics belong in the beginner's section, and half of the people answering also belong in the beginners section. The BTB section has turned into the place where beginner's go to because they want their questions answered by people who know what they're talking about. But it's no longer a place for advanced people to dialogue together. The problem is partially that 'beyond the basics' is way to big of an umbrella. There should really be an Advanced section above the BTB section. And I think it shouldn't be open to everyone to post in. Everyone should be able to read, but only certain people should be allowed to post in the Advanced section.

Same goes for the Professional gallery. What should be a place where professionals can post work and be critiqued by other professional has turned into a place where anyone who has every been paid fora shot, or anyone who has a website and a watermark can post their photos, and consequently have them critiqued by people who don't know what they're talking about. There need to be more protection of the Pro Gallery. It should be for people who are working pro, making their living from photography, and only they should be allowed to critique eachother.

If the moderators/owners of this forum are smart, they should really be taking action to hold on to their professional and advanced users base. Other wise this forum will just forever continue it's current pattern of being swarmed by newbs, and somepeople occasionally geting better, progressing, becoming advanced, then realizing that there is no longer anything here for them; and leaving.

I really want to still like this forum, but there needs to be some considerable actions taken to both create a community of professional and advanced shooters, and then protect it. 

Lastly, I think in general, the ability to give critque is a right that should be earned, and there should be different degrees of it; not something that is given to every single person who signs up for an account. I don't know exactly how that would work, but it needs to happen. I don't think it should be strictly from post count, or even anythign more than slightly based on post count. But maybe a portfolio review or even a review of critiques given. But when everyone has a voice, no one has a voice.


----------



## inTempus (Sep 16, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Add some noise to make it look like it was shot at ISO 3,200.


I knew it was missing something!







How about noise AND lens flare??  SWEET!  I'm opening a gallery with this baby.  Now all I need are 40 more images as good as this one and I'm going to be big time.

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Derrel (Sep 16, 2010)

InTempus,
  I gotta' hand it to you!!!!! Man, the noise looks superb, but the lens flare---dude!!!! That totally rocks! Seriously! Killer PS work on that tomater!


----------



## supraman215 (Sep 16, 2010)

GeneralBenson said:


> Lastly, I think in general, the ability to give critque is a right that should be earned, and there should be different degrees of it; not something that is given to every single person who signs up for an account. I don't know exactly how that would work, but it needs to happen. I don't think it should be strictly from post count, or even anything more than slightly based on post count. But maybe a portfolio review or even a review of critiques given. But when everyone has a voice, no one has a voice.



I think this is a great idea. Who would be the judge and jury to determine this list? Should the advanced/pro also have to be a supporting member? Something like this would add to the maintenance of the site. I know that when I post for C&C I really want the top guys, and people who frequent this site know who they are, to review it.


----------



## Dmitri (Sep 16, 2010)

GeneralBenson said:


> Over the years as I have progressed in my skill, this site has had less  and less to offer me. NOw as a fulltime working professional, I find  little here for me. I'm not trying to sound all "I'm better than  everyone", but I'm just saying that I think this forum needs to do more  to hold on to it's professional and advanced amateur users. I've watched  over the years as people grow, learn more, become more of an expert,  and then leave. Then I did the same thing. I feel like there's just no  place on this forum for knowledgeable/advanced people.



To paraphrase: "I've taken all I can, but I can't be bothered to give back"? 




GeneralBenson said:


> Lastly, I think in general, the ability to give critque is a right that should be earned, and there should be different degrees of it; not something that is given to every single person who signs up for an account. I don't know exactly how that would work, but it needs to happen. I don't think it should be strictly from post count, or even anythign more than slightly based on post count. But maybe a portfolio review or even a review of critiques given. But when everyone has a voice, no one has a voice.



:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Oh god man, PLEASE tell me you were joking!


----------



## tirediron (Sep 16, 2010)

GeneralBenson said:


> Lastly, I think in general, the ability to give critque is a right that should be earned, and there should be different degrees of it; *not something that is given to every single person* who signs up for an account. I don't know exactly how that would work, but it needs to happen. I don't think it should be strictly from post count, or even anythign more than slightly based on post count. *But maybe a portfolio review or even a review of critiques* given. But when everyone has a voice, no one has a voice.


 
Just so I'm clear... members should not be allowed to offer critique until they've proven their knowledge and skill through the critiques they give?


----------



## Overread (Sep 16, 2010)

tirediron said:


> GeneralBenson said:
> 
> 
> > Lastly, I think in general, the ability to give critque is a right that should be earned, and there should be different degrees of it; *not something that is given to every single person* who signs up for an account. I don't know exactly how that would work, but it needs to happen. I don't think it should be strictly from post count, or even anythign more than slightly based on post count. *But maybe a portfolio review or even a review of critiques* given. But when everyone has a voice, no one has a voice.
> ...



I understand his point - that the site should build toward a pro critique section that is moderated and where those who give the crits are accomplished photographers.
Even in that case though people still complain about crits, but the overall quality can go up.

The thing is something like that needs a lot of management to setup and run effectively. Also I would say that something like that is best when it works alongside letting regular people also give their viewpoints. Sometimes a thought or opinion from an "untrained" person can reveal things that the "trained eye" misses or takes a different way.


----------



## pbelarge (Sep 16, 2010)

It is very lonely at the top of the world......................


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## Gaerek (Sep 16, 2010)

inTempus said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Add some noise to make it look like it was shot at ISO 3,200.
> ...



The sad part is, you probably could open a gallery with this photo and just call it pop art. I've seen things very similar to this hanging in galleries. People will buy anything as long as you invoke Warhol...

And on topic with the thread...not sure how I missed this one. C&C, as long as I have been here, hasn't really changed much. It's a matter of sifting through what's been given to find the gems. I breached this topic (though, never mentioned the site falling apart) in a thread several months ago, that's linked in my sig below (click on "Giving or receiving C&C? Click here first!). The problem is this. C&C not only helps the photographer asking for it, but the one giving it as well. Being able to C&C someone else's work means you are able to critique your own work. I am far more harsh when it comes to my work than people are to my work, and I am to theirs. But there was a time (before I made it to TPF) when I would literally post everything I had on my memory card, ask people for critique, then get defensive when people thought it sucked (because, of course, I thought it was good stuff). I've grown up a bit since then. I look at some of that early work and I can't believe I actually liked it. Even today, I rarely show anything I have, not because it's terrible, but because it's not up to my standard.

Anyway...giving C&C is good, regardless of skill level. You just need to make sure you actually know what you're talking about before posting. For example, I've never used external lights. I know how they work, in theory, but I'll let the people with actual experience give the comments, and I'll stay out. People need to simply develop a filter.


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## Josh66 (Sep 16, 2010)

inTempus said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > bigtwinky said:
> ...


Take every post I make with a grain of salt...  I wouldn't say I'm a drunk, but I have been drinking when I wrote pretty much every post I've made here...

I only drink when I'm bored and there's nothing better to do (not many things are better than having a beer, lol) - and I only post on forums when I'm bored, so - there is almost always a beer sitting next to the keyboard while I'm posting here (or any other forum).

If I say something stupid, just assume I'm drunk, lol.  Especially if it's late.  If I'm posting after midnight, I'm completely hammered.

Somehow, alcohol doesn't seem to affect my ability to type...


----------



## kundalini (Sep 16, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> Take every post I make with a grain of salt... I wouldn't say I'm a drunk, but I have been drinking when I wrote pretty much every post I've made here......


Say hello to my littls friends.......




 



:taped sh:​


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 16, 2010)

I miss Yuengling...  I see a bottle there...

The closest we have down here is Shiner Bock, which is good, but not quite the same.

edit

OMG - when did I break 6,000 posts ... I didn't even notice.


----------



## MattxMosh (Sep 16, 2010)

This thread is too long to read, but has anyone noticed it's in the wrong section?


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## Josh66 (Sep 16, 2010)

Are you saying that this isn't 'beyond the basics'?

Most (basic) people would pass out long before me, lol.  Therefore, we are now 'beyond' the basics...lol!


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## MattxMosh (Sep 16, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> > Village Idiot said:
> ...



So why arent you on IRC I'm also bored and drunk haha

DOUBLE POST


----------



## mishele (Sep 16, 2010)

kundalini said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Take every post I make with a grain of salt... I wouldn't say I'm a drunk, but I have been drinking when I wrote pretty much every post I've made here......
> ...


You are my HERO!!!!!!!:hail:


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 16, 2010)

IRC is too much typing, lol.  And, I have to work tomorrow (normally I have Fridays off), so I can't stay up all night.  If I get in there, I'll end up drinking all night and call in tomorrow, lol.  Normally I wouldn't care about that, but I could actually use the extra money...


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## MattxMosh (Sep 16, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> IRC is too much typing, lol.  And, I have to work tomorrow (normally I have Fridays off), so I can't stay up all night.  If I get in there, I'll end up drinking all night and call in tomorrow, lol.  Normally I wouldn't care about that, but I could actually use the extra money...



haha , fridays my day off to. I'll be wasted shortly.


----------



## supraman215 (Sep 16, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> I miss Yuengling...  I see a bottle there...
> 
> The closest we have down here is Shiner Bock, which is good, but not quite the same.
> 
> ...



Lager rules! Although I think I drank too much of it got kinda tired of it.


----------



## pbelarge (Sep 16, 2010)

Say hello to my littls friends.......




 




:taped sh:​[/QUOTE]


I think these may be some friends of yours from the past.


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 16, 2010)

Kinda makes me wonder what's in the bags...lol.


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## Amocholes (Sep 17, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> Kinda makes me wonder what's in the bags...lol.



Pizza boxes of course!


----------



## Flash Harry (Sep 17, 2010)

and beer cans


----------



## Flash Harry (Sep 17, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Big D
> 
> and I'd down it then buy you one back, cheers H


----------



## Village Idiot (Sep 17, 2010)

kundalini said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Take every post I make with a grain of salt... I wouldn't say I'm a drunk, but I have been drinking when I wrote pretty much every post I've made here......
> ...


 
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

Weak... My garbage from 1 week looks like that, but with half gallons of vodka.


----------



## inTempus (Sep 17, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.
> 
> Weak... My garbage from 1 week looks like that, but with half gallons of vodka.


I see a liver transplant in your not-to-distant future.  Hey, you can hire me as your event photographer. I'll get some killer shots of your old liver coming out and your new liver going in.

How is the lighting in operating rooms anyway?  Do you think ISO 3200 will cut it?  Any lens recommendations?  Should I shoot your transplant in RAW or JPG (or even RAW+JPG)?  Are flashes allowed in the OR?  Would you use a defuser in there, something like a Gary Fong?  Do you shoot with your flash in ETTL or do you shoot manual?  Can you give me some pointers?  I heard I might need a contract, can I borrow one of yours?

Anyway, I'll shoot your transplant for $50 plus expenses.  I walk everywhere as I'm in school but as long as you're not more than a state away I can just walk to you with enough notice.

PM me!


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 17, 2010)




----------



## Canosonic (Sep 17, 2010)

Pros accuse noobs in giving bad critique and noobs accuse pros in trolling.


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 17, 2010)




----------



## Dmitri (Sep 17, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


>



omg flashback!


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## LuckySe7en (Sep 17, 2010)

To the OP...Stay out of the beginners section if you dont want to read what BEGINNERS are posting.


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## Village Idiot (Sep 17, 2010)

LuckySe7en said:


> To the OP...Stay out of the beginners section if you dont want to read what BEGINNERS are posting.


 
It's no the beginner's section, it's the town dump.


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## LuckySe7en (Sep 17, 2010)

im a beginner and understand about people taking snapshots and calling them photos, but they're beginners.  I personally never post in other sections unless its a compliment because i'm no one to give profressional advice.


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## Wheels47130 (Sep 17, 2010)

It's put me off of posting pics here. I do make my living doing photography. I do more art and stock now. It seems not all, but a lot of photogs just love to nit pic and try to point out everything "they" would different as wrong. To me photography is an Art. Some people will get it, and love it. Some people will hate it. If you are able to sell your work, or even if you just enjoy looking at then it's not "wrong" I do wish people would learn to point out good things along with things they would change. Not just tear apart someones work.


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 17, 2010)

Just because you point out the flaws you see or what you would do differently, doesnt mean you are ripping something apart.  Are we all hippies here?

Seriously... if i post a photo and get 20 replies and everyone is pointing things out they like and nothing else, what have I learned?  Not much.

Now what if 5 of those people take the time to tell me what they dont like and what they consider is wrong.  Ah...now I have 5 other opinions of something I can do differently.  Now we are making progress.

Now what if 5 more people actually take the time to not only point out what they consider flaws but also how they would go about doing it differently... now I have actual ideas of things to try and do differently.

I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Beginners here are not doing art.  They are trying to get a decent photo.  Once someone has progressed passed the basic technical and composational skills of taking and making an image, then you can look at it as being art...when things are done on purpose to achieve a look or emotion.  But until then, its all learning and being a hippy and making nice nice with everyone is not helping anyone grow as a beginner photographer.

There were way back when sections for advanced, pros, working pros and so on where interesting discussions happened.  But that was then and this is now.

If having people tell you they dont like your work, how they would do it differently and nit pic on small details (which are often the easiest things to overlook and yet, can make such a difference) gets you all worked up, then dont post them up!

Your work is great.  If you dont think you will get any added value by people nit picking your work and commenting on the small details (which I often find are the hardest things to spot), then there are forums for more advanced people you can head to.


----------



## inTempus (Sep 17, 2010)

Canosonic said:


> Pros accuse noobs in giving bad critique and noobs accuse pros in trolling.


Please stop with the bad critiquing of my posts.


----------



## Village Idiot (Sep 17, 2010)

Or you get 5 pages of responses with only 3 post about the original crappy picture you posted!


----------



## Dmitri (Sep 17, 2010)




----------



## inTempus (Sep 17, 2010)




----------



## Canosonic (Sep 17, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Just because you point out the flaws you see or what you would do differently, doesnt mean you are ripping something apart.  Are we all hippies here?
> 
> Seriously... if i post a photo and get 20 replies and everyone is pointing things out they like and nothing else, what have I learned?  Not much.
> 
> ...



There's where my sig G. Patton quote rolls out.


----------



## kundalini (Sep 17, 2010)

on the dance off


----------



## Raian-san (Sep 17, 2010)

I think every interests forum is expanding year by year as more people are learning and getting on the internet every day. I am new and every since I came here, I've seen more and more people signing up every day. Why not embrace that more people are taking up photography as a hobby instead of doing negative things like drugs, partying or etc? 

I do agree that there are some people who keep posting snapshots and they know it's not that good but they just want people to see their photos. Everybody is different on how they learn to do things. I personally don't post my photos if I dont' think it look good to me but when I take some that I think it's pretty cool to me I will post it. Then people will point out my flaws that I didn't notice and I use those advice to improve. I do think though that there are a lot of people posting so many snapshots and some people are tired of responding and giving comments on it. 

Anyways who care, people have the rights to do what they want. This forum is a fun pass time forum for me to read and learn.


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## Josh66 (Sep 17, 2010)

Since when are drugs and partying negative things?!


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 17, 2010)




----------



## Josh66 (Sep 17, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


>


One more reason to stay nice and 'medicated', lol!

Seriously though, I never touch the stuff anymore...  Just beer & wine these days.  I think the drugs were probably safer though...

At one time or another, I've tried (at least once) pretty much any drug you can think of...  Yeah - _any_ drug you can think of, lol.

And I have to say - nicotine is harder to kick than coke or heroine...
That **** is easy to quit - you just don't do it anymore.  I can't quit smoking though...  Somehow, I just can't ... not yet anyway...
(Don't worry, that stuff was a long time ago and I haven't touched an illegal substance in years - but I do think that some of the _legal_ ones are worse...)

Caffeine was harder to quit than I expected, but I did it.  The occasional cup of tea is the one caffeine I drink.  Maybe 2 or 3 cups a week...

Alcohol and tobacco ... so far they're winning.  Tried and failed a few times...


----------



## usayit (Sep 17, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> The closest we have down here is Shiner Bock, which is good, but not quite the same.



SEND.. ME a truck load!  I grew up on Shiner.. Miss it!  Send .. Me.. NOW!!    PLEEEZZ...


----------



## usayit (Sep 17, 2010)

"This site is falling apart..."  posted in the "Foundations of Photography" forum.. .ironic? on purpose?


----------



## Gaerek (Sep 17, 2010)

I think it's time to start a new thread:

This thread is falling apart..


----------



## Canosonic (Sep 18, 2010)

When you do drugs & alcohol, especially drugs, you always lose, and lose, and lose.


----------



## manaheim (Sep 18, 2010)

kalmkidd said:


> seriously it cracks me. up. its sad i have only been here a few yrs but my has there been changes. 80% of this site must have went out, bought a slr, and came on here and said hey ''im bob the Professional photographer'' i mean im by no means the GREATEST ever but seriously. 90% of threads i open are snap shots my 10yr old brother could take at BEST. and then these people are leaving mean degrading feedback to other new comers.. this whole site actually no this hole photography thing is going down hill is so saturated with wannabes and crap talkers it makes me sick..
> 
> after reading some feedback i will tell you this and please just listen
> 
> ...


 
Wait... why do you care what other people do? 

Sorry, I just _had_ to. 

Anyway, this comes up constantly here.  Every 3 months or so I think, though it's harder to tell now since I only bop in here periodically now.

Keep in mind that some part of it seems to be attached to the person who complains getting better or more experienced, so they are more aware of the not-so-great behaviors and photography and more alarmed by the same reactions that likely they didn't notice before.


----------



## Tee (Sep 18, 2010)

I found this forum because it was at the top of the Google search engine.  Another site I belong to has pretty much zero "what kind of camera is best for me?"  I think the search rankings have a lot to do with the steady flow of repeat questions from us noobs.  

I remember how proud I was when I posted my first pictures.  Now, I am embarrassed by the point and shoot pics.  So, I decided to keep my internet mouth shut, pick up the camera and just sit here and read.  This site has led me to other sites and learning portals and I enjoy visiting this site for the social aspect of it.  

I post my pictures on another site for C&C as I found the discussion to be more technically oriented.


----------



## Chris Fulton (Sep 18, 2010)

Ok, so I am new to this site, and relatively new to photography.  I am by no means a pro.  I do not consider myself one.  When I critique, on this site or the other I am a member of, I try to tell what I like, what works for me, what doesn't work for me, why it does or doesn't work, and maybe a way to change it.  I try NOT to keep it at "great shot" unless the whole thing works for me.  So yes, I nitpick a little.  And I am worse on my own stuff then everyone elses.  Nothing I post is perfect, I just thought it was good enough to post.  Tell me how to make it better.  C&C isn't and shouldn't be rocket surgery.  What's good, what's bad, why is it that way, and ideas to improve it.  Even a noob can give good advice.  Most of the people on a site like this are going to be non professional with a varying degree of experience.  If you say it sucks but do not give a reason why, it doesn't help anyone.  It means your c&c sucks.


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 18, 2010)

Tee said:


> I post my pictures on another site for C&C as I found the discussion to be more technically oriented.


You can get that here too, you just have to separate the crap from the helpful stuff.

Posting in the right section helps too...

Post in the beginners section, you're going to get mostly beginners critiquing your work...

If that's all you want, go ahead - if you want something a little more technical and to the point, post in the appropriate section.  Those areas of the forum get less traffic, so you might have to wait longer for useful replies, but as long as you're OK with waiting a day or two (and maybe a little bump here and there) - it's fine.


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 18, 2010)

Chris Fulton said:


> Ok, so I am new to this site, and relatively new to photography..



Sad that even considering your newness, you still chose to become a supporting member of the site and fed money to the people who are the ones responsible for its demise.


----------



## supraman215 (Sep 18, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Chris Fulton said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so I am new to this site, and relatively new to photography..
> ...



What's wrong with supporting something you participate in?


----------



## Dmitri (Sep 18, 2010)

supraman215 said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Fulton said:
> ...



The answer is in the sig of the person you are replying to.
"**I would never pay money to TPF to be a supporter as the owners do not support their users. **"


----------



## kalmkidd (Sep 18, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Chris Fulton said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so I am new to this site, and relatively new to photography..
> ...




this is why i have always liked you.. these people who bought this site DO NOT CARE ABOUT IT.. they care about the money your feeding them..


----------



## bigtwinky (Sep 19, 2010)

supraman215 said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Fulton said:
> ...



In some cases, its throwing away money.  If the money given would be going back into the site, then its all good.  But in this case, the money goes into the owner's pockets, nothing but broken promises coming back to the community


----------



## Taylor510ce (Sep 19, 2010)

Whats really killing the forum are these damn 10 page threads. WTF! 

I will agree with a few things I saw mentioned, that I do not feel like going back and trying to actually quote, but I am not reading 10 pages of this. I skimmed maybe 5.

I think even the inexperienced are able to give C+C. It doesn't say that this is nothing but experts. If someone has been doing this for 6 months, and I have been doing it for a week, they should still be able to pass on some knowledge. The other thing is that much of what everyone says on here is opinion based. Many people do things different ways, have different beliefs, and have different reasons for pursuing photography. So if you come on here expecting that every response you get to a picture posting is the gospel, then you need a reality check. On the Flip side I think a lot of people on here are just posting for C+C because they want to hear an "Atta Boy". Its rare anymore that I actually see people courteous and thankful to the responses. It always turns into a bickering match amongst responders, or a big excuse fest by the OP. Also, would it kill people to start using the thanks button? 

THE THANKS BUTTON IS OUR FRIEND!!! this is how you weed out the morons from the people that are actually useful. You are only allowed three thanks per day, so you have to actually CARE who you give them to. Its not just willy nilly. How about a sticky about this? This would cure the whole problem and act as a barometer of whether to listen to someone more than the other guy. ( again, thats assuming its a factual question as opposed to an opinionated one ).

The last thing I will touch on is the term "PROFESSIONAL."
While I tend to think of a professional being more a skill level/self-conduct type thing, the reality is, that a professional is anyone who gets paid to do a task. Sure some people IMO shouldn't be charging, but who the hell are we to tell them that they aren't entitled to be a "professional" photographer? Maybe thats the biggest problem with this forum, the sense of entitlement and the sense of superiority. There are many seasoned pros that could stand to learn a thing from time to time from a total newbie. Whether its a creative new technique, or a new technology they have yet to try. If someone is making money catering to low income families on a shoestring budget that need a wedding photog, then great. Good for them. They are helping the less fortunate, AND making a living off of it. Much less than I can say for most of the "so called experts" on here. Armani doesn't ***** because Kmart is having a sale on Lee Dungarees. Quality sells itself. So lets get off the high horse.

With that said, I don't want to come off as biting the hand that has fed me. I learned a LOT on this forum by some very smart and helpful people ( you know who you are ) but I think we can all ( including myself ) stand to step back a bit and assess how we can make this forum better. Whether its going downhill or not. There is always room for improvement.


----------



## Village Idiot (Sep 20, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> supraman215 said:
> 
> 
> > bigtwinky said:
> ...


 
I need to start a website. Maybe I'll call it broken promises and I'll have one button on my site that says "help support broken promises" and it'll be a direct link to my paypal account.

Off I go!


----------



## Infidel (Sep 20, 2010)

Village Idiot said:


> I need to start a website. Maybe I'll call it broken promises and I'll have one button on my site that says "help support broken promises" and it'll be a direct link to my paypal account.
> 
> Off I go!



http://www.brokenpromises.com/


----------



## ann (Sep 20, 2010)

funny


----------



## Dmitri (Sep 20, 2010)

ONE HUNDRED FIFTY FIFTH!


----------



## LearnMyShot (Sep 26, 2010)

you sound like you had a bad day...sorry


----------



## supraman215 (Sep 26, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> supraman215 said:
> 
> 
> > bigtwinky said:
> ...



What's wrong with it going into the owners pockets? Is this a charity?


----------



## Inst!nct (Sep 26, 2010)

lul


----------



## GeneralBenson (Sep 27, 2010)

Taylor510ce said:


> Armani doesn't ***** because Kmart is having a sale on Lee Dungarees. Quality sells itself.



Hahahaha. Very funny. And also, very true.


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## Gaerek (Sep 27, 2010)

supraman215 said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > supraman215 said:
> ...


 
Nothing, which is why they have the option there. However, just kow that the money you spend will have no impact whatsoever on the site. Sure, ads will be gone for you and if that's worth it, go for it. I for one don't feel like supporting people who don't support me.


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## rpm (Sep 27, 2010)

i havent been on the site long but im wondering what exactly do you hope for them to do in terms of support? outside hosting, maintaining and keeping the site in check? the ads and 'our' contributions keep the site up, yes some of it will be profit but isn't that to be expected? as someone said already its not charity. 

its a forum, so in my opinion, 90% of what makes the site attractive is the community and not the bells and whistles the site owner adds. ive read about the sudden disappearance of the nude section and i can see how that must feel like a blow to the community but all in all, on a forum where its mostly about community participation than site-based-features, i dont see what people are hoping for exactly...

btw given the nature of the site, id assume ads to be a norm. dont know why people are upset by them as if it was a complete surprise.


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## inTempus (Sep 27, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> Nothing, which is why they have the option there. However, just kow that the money you spend will have no impact whatsoever on the site. Sure, ads will be gone for you and if that's worth it, go for it. I for one don't feel like supporting people who don't support me.


Then why post here at all?  I don't mean that to be snarky, I'm just curious.


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## Dmitri (Sep 27, 2010)




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## bigtwinky (Sep 27, 2010)

inTempus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing, which is why they have the option there. However, just kow that the money you spend will have no impact whatsoever on the site. Sure, ads will be gone for you and if that's worth it, go for it. I for one don't feel like supporting people who don't support me.
> ...



Entertainment?


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## kundalini (Sep 27, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Entertainment?


 Let me entertain you then........


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## Tasmaster (Oct 3, 2010)

Chris Fulton said:


> Ok, so I am new to this site, and relatively new to photography.  I am by no means a pro.  I do not consider myself one.  When I critique, on this site or the other I am a member of, I try to tell what I like, what works for me, what doesn't work for me, why it does or doesn't work, and maybe a way to change it.  I try NOT to keep it at "great shot" unless the whole thing works for me.  So yes, I nitpick a little.  And I am worse on my own stuff then everyone elses.  Nothing I post is perfect, I just thought it was good enough to post.  Tell me how to make it better.  C&C isn't and shouldn't be rocket surgery.  What's good, what's bad, why is it that way, and ideas to improve it.  Even a noob can give good advice.  Most of the people on a site like this are going to be non professional with a varying degree of experience.  If you say it sucks but do not give a reason why, it doesn't help anyone.  It means your c&c sucks.



"Being a pro" and "taking stellar photos" are not interdependent.

Noobs can give good advice (to an extent), but usually they don't. By definition, noobs can't give technical advice, which is needed very often.

I don't remember too many details, but there was a debate a couple of years back about critiques and the general direction the forum was taking, the end result was a more newbie-oriented identity at the cost of some very prominent members who left around that time or soon afterwards. No proper critique either, as the emphasis moved towards being polite rather than helpful. Now, i've been away from this for more than a year, so things may have changed again - i'm just filling you in in the details. I guess this issue keeps popping up as long as the forum's orientation is divided between beginners and those that the beginners call "pros".


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## Chris Fulton (Oct 3, 2010)

Tasmaster said:


> "Being a pro" and "taking stellar photos" are not interdependent.
> 
> Noobs can give good advice (to an extent), but usually they don't. By definition, noobs can't give technical advice, which is needed very often.
> 
> I don't remember too many details, but there was a debate a couple of years back about critiques and the general direction the forum was taking, the end result was a more newbie-oriented identity at the cost of some very prominent members who left around that time or soon afterwards. No proper critique either, as the emphasis moved towards being polite rather than helpful. Now, i've been away from this for more than a year, so things may have changed again - i'm just filling you in in the details. I guess this issue keeps popping up as long as the forum's orientation is divided between beginners and those that the beginners call "pros".


 
I totally agree that us noobs can't always give the best technical advice. A lot of what I have learned though, has come from hanging out at sites like this and others. Had I simply tried learning from a book, I don't think I would have progressed as much as I have in the past two or three years. And most of the people I C&C on are newbies that are in worse shape than me. As I said, I just try to critique how I would like someone to critique me. I don't mind someone telling me that something sux, just tell me why it does and how to fix it, whether it's a simple crop job, or reshoot with this filter and f/stop, or adjustments in Photoshop. And I don't really call someone with better skills a pro, just someone who has more experience that I can learn from. And I would rather be helpful than polite. You don't learn if all someone says is "nice shot" or "it doesn't work for me".


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## Mike_E (Oct 4, 2010)

So, is the sky falling or not?


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