# Stuck in a rut...



## kitkatdubs

Ive been shooting for about 5 years, but this past year I've started to pursue photography more seriously.  Every time I come home from a shoot, my husband criticizes my work saying its the same old, same old.  I feel like I have a great eye for things but I also feel like I play it safe.  I bought a 70-2oomm lens but I am finding I really do not like it b/c I don't have enough room and I have to back up super far and yell loud at my clients.  Am I being crazy?  I had a shoot today and walked away feeling defeated b/c I just don't feel like I got the greatest shots.  I feel like the location really sucked (the client was insistent on it)- and it was a group of 6 adults + 3 kids.  I was stressed b/c the kids wouldn't sit still so I was just trying to work quickly b/c everyone seemed uptight with the kids acting crazy.   So with that being said, is composition something I should be studying up on - like recreating photos I really like?  Or is it just personal eye??  Thanks!


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## jaomul

Criticism is good, but only if its constructive criticism. Does your husband offer anything in the way of how you can improve?, if not, then do not take the criticism as it will only make you feel bad about yourself.

Some lenses suit people, some don't. I am far from a pro, or even far from being a good photographer(so take what I say with a grain of salt) .I shoot a lot at longer focal lengths. I met a guy the other day who does 90% of everything at 16-35 on a fullframe so likes very wide angle.

You probably need to find your own style, and that can take a while. Certainly a shoot with a few kids moving can be tough. Some of the best people photographers I have seen can use a camera, but there people managing skills were where they shined, and this allowed the better photos


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## The_Traveler

Maybe your pictures are the 'same old stuff'  and its possible that your husband means well but just doesn't have the experience or the vocabulary to give helpful hints.

Post pictures or a link to your web site.


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## spiralout462

I agree that critique from some of the fine folks on TPF or from respected pros might be more helpful than a spouse.


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## Designer

kitkatdubs said:


> I bought a 70-2oomm lens but I am finding I really do not like it b/c I don't have enough room and I have to back up super far and yell loud at my clients.  Am I being crazy?


Yes, long lenses mean the camera needs to be back a ways, but there are some things you could try:

Pre-frame your shot before asking the folks to line up.  Note where the edges of the frame are and put a little strip of tape on the floor (before the backdrop is o.k.) to show were they should group.  Then purchase a RF trigger that will fire your camera (and flash of course) when you press the button.  Then you can walk closer with the remote, and talk in a normal voice.  You can even speak  (very quietly ) which helps the children listen closer.  Just keep to one side, watch the people's poses, and fire when ready.  Occasionally (like during a break in the posing) verify that they are all still in the frame.  

In my opinion, having the actual space in which to back up is something many photographers overlook in their planning, but if you have the space, then you are uptown.  Long lenses are usually more flattering to portraiture, so don't get mad at the lens, just enjoy it.


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## tirediron

One of the first rules of photography is:  Don't buy gear unless you know WHY you need it, and how you will use, and why you can't achieve the same result with stuff you already have.  You might be the first person I've ever heard of who doesn't get along with a 70-200, but I guess there has to be one! 

FWIW, I wouldn't be likely to use a 70-200 on a group of 9; to me that's 24-70 territory, probably around 55-60mm.  I might stretch it out to the 85, but probably not.  You should always be studying and practicing.  I read books and spend time on 'sites like Creative Live frequently.  If I get an idea that I want to try, I troll through Model Mayhem and get someone in for a TF* shoot to try my idea.  

You would likely benefit from the posting of some of your work here from C&C; it might not do your ego much good, but your work is sure to improve.


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## kitkatdubs

tirediron said:


> One of the first rules of photography is:  Don't buy gear unless you know WHY you need it, and how you will use, and why you can't achieve the same result with stuff you already have.  You might be the first person I've ever heard of who doesn't get along with a 70-200, but I guess there has to be one!
> 
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> Designer said:
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> kitkatdubs said:
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> I bought a 70-2oomm lens but I am finding I really do not like it b/c I don't have enough room and I have to back up super far and yell loud at my clients.  Am I being crazy?
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> Yes, long lenses mean the camera needs to be back a ways, but there are some things you could try:
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Ok so here is a link to my pixieset.  I took all these photos for free for practice over the last few months.  I added a few photos from a shoot I did last night, which is the Johnson family.  Feel free to provide some feedback!  Thank you!
> 
> Kaitlyn Rose Photography
Click to expand...


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## kitkatdubs

Heres a link to my pixie set....  Kaitlyn Rose Photography


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## The_Traveler

Your exposure and focus is generally pretty good but your inexperience shows big time.

This lack of experience shows in the website, the posing and the editing. 

Because the website handles different shaped pictures in the same way, the pictures used in specific shapes for display are often cropped in an unappealing manner. This site doesn't allow the proper handling of photos for photographers; I would dump this provider.

There are many many pictures of the same subject, same clothes, different pose. That screams 'amateur' starting up.

The editing in too many of the pictures is very heavy handed and oversaturated - giving eyes the 'children of the damned' look. White balance is off in a good many.

Too many pictures of people lined up in a row and too many fake smiles.

It's my opinion that it is too early for you to be attempting to do shoots for money. 
Start with getting some specific input on your processing so that the pictures are finished well.
Get some education on posing.
Learn to work with children - and adults - so that their expressions are genuine, rather than forced.


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## jcdeboever

I think your pics look pretty darn good and you should be proud of them. As a husband and reading what yours said, reminded me of my wife's snide comments she makes. But not being there and hearing it, I will digress other than to say he could help you out and watch the kids when you go on an assignment. 

People have different ideas on art in general. You appear to enjoy the family portrait arena. Nothing wrong with that, it is an important genre that brings great joy and fond memories for all that gather in front of your lens. There are other genres out their so I would encourage you to explore a little for yourself. This will get you out of a rut if your even in one.


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## wyogirl

There are a good amount of photos that are poorly posed. Women with wide stances, shot straight on. Clothes that are bunched-- these are details but make a huge difference. Like The Traveler said, get some information on better posing. Pay attention to how clothes lay, if hair has fallen awry. 

Another thing is that you could benefit from some fill light. If the background is bright, you need flash to balance the subject otherwise the subject is underexposed. Learning how to make your own light instead of relying on natural light is a huge step forward. 

Good luck!


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## kitkatdubs

I really appreciate all the feedback.  I have only been out taking pictures for friends for about 6 months so I really am still an amateur.  BUT I will say, I am thoroughly enjoying learning the ropes.  

Are there any online classes that talk about posing.

Also I am wondering about fill light for outdoor portraits.  Would a speed light work to balance the light on the subjects when the background is blown out?

 Also, the pictures of the people lined up is what the client asked for in the big group shot of the Johnsons.  She had a specific look in mind and I wanted to honor her request.  I am not done editing the session and won't be for a week but will post it all when I'm done.  Thanks everyone~  appreciate all the constructive criticism.  Hard pill to swallow, but definitely very helpful!


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## tirediron

First and foremost, in addition to the above point about your 'sites handling of image size/shape, there doesn't appear to be a way to get back to the main page after you've scrolled through part of a gallery other than to step backward through all of the images in the gallery.  This is inefficient and VERY annoying to someone who wants to scroll quickly through a few of your galleries to get an idea of what your work is like.

The Traveler and Wyogirl both raise some very good points about your work.  One that they hadn't mentioned, but that jumped out at me, again yelling in a loud, clear, voice "lack of experience" is the number of images that aren't leveled.  Learning to hold your camera level and plumb is a basic skill, but one that many, especially these days, don't seem overly concerned with.  When you don't get it right in camera, make sure that you correct it in post!

In addition, many of your cropping choices are visually irritating; little bits of limbs cropped off, hands/feet/heads so near as to touch the edge of the frame, etc.  Shoot loose and crop in post.  Just looking at your galleries very, very few of the images seemed to be in standard print ratios...


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## wyogirl

You can use speedlights anywhere because they run off batteries. But you need to get them off camera and if you are shooting groups of people then you will need more than one to cover the necessary area. For single person portraits, speedlights or a reflector will work. The hard part about either is that you need stands to hold them and usually weights to keep them from blowing away. If you have an assistant with you, that can be really helpful... Even if said assistant is your own 10 year old kid.


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## wyogirl

If your client asks for a particular pose, do it.... But then do a better pose. 9 times out of 10-- they will order the better pose.


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## kitkatdubs

wyogirl said:


> If your client asks for a particular pose, do it.... But then do a better pose. 9 times out of 10-- they will order the better pose.



I am shooting on a Canon 50D - I am wondering if I upgrade to say a 5D Mark iii would help with the cropping part?  My camera is a crop sensor lens so I feel like that is quite annoying.  Also, I have heard that the Mark iii is very good with low lighting?


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## tirediron

The Mark III will definitely handle low lighting better, but WHY would you shoot portraits in low light?  As Wyogirl mentioned, you need to be adding light.  Speedlights will do the job, but with the availability of inverters and Li-ion battery banks, you can just as easily tote full on studio lights around.  

As for cropping; the camera will make no difference.  The frame ratio is the same in either one.  If you can't get it right in your current camera, spending $2000 (which would be MUCH better spent on lighting) won't help.


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## kitkatdubs

I took maternity photos last night for free... here is a shot that I liked.  any feedback would be helpful!


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## tirediron

This is a perfect example of where lighting would have helped.  A lot!  The couple really doesn't stand out at all.  A single light at low power just off-axis would have really lent some 'pop' to this scene.  I do like the fact that the couple has coordinated their clothing (your advice or their idea?), but really the fact that she's pregnant is lost among st all the black and the placement of Dad's hand.  I also like the way the branch frames her back and goes over their heads (accident or design?  Be honest!  )

I also don't understand all the empty space.  Is this a special spot that they wanted to show?  It's nice enough, but not very interesting, and to be honest, I think a tighter, portrait crop would work much better here.


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## Braineack

kitkatdubs said:


> I took maternity photos last night for free... here is a shot that I liked.  any feedback would be helpful!


Did you add in that flare?

using tapatalk.


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## Derrel

I think the couple would have benefitted from a little bit more foot space. Not a lot, but a little bit. I'm positive I would have picked up that stick from the lower left corner, and tossed it out of my shooting area. I like the hillside behind, and the tree is a nice symbol of life, and how it can branch out, from one base, multiple branches. The dark black point hides the wrinkly tail of his T-shirt, but the blacks need a bit more detail in them. Here the shot is, with the exposure brightened a bit, then the edges of the frame darkened with the Lightroom burn tool, and *the stick* that was in the lower left corner quickly *cloned out*.





Maybe go for a more theatrical look? This is adding more burning (darkening), and then some dodging, to create that sort of "shaft of late afternoon light" look. The flare looks added to me, but I see people doing it a LOT these days, and I think some younger people really like the artificial flare look. I spent about two minutes editing these, but if a person spent more time they could easily,easily better the edits I banged out in LR.

Last thing...I think about one inch or so needs to be lopped off of the right hand side of this composition. And again...they need a little bit more *room below their feet*!


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## kitkatdubs

Yes I added the sunflare.  Does it look good or bad?


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## The_Traveler

OK, the flare adds some romance but the people just merge into each other.
But lots of empty space, their feet are almost at the bottom edge and 4 x 5 is a better standard size for frames in US.


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## kitkatdubs

The_Traveler said:


> OK, the flare adds some romance but the people just merge into each other.
> But lots of empty space, their feet are almost at the bottom edge and 4 x 5 is a better standard size for frames in US.
> 
> 
> View attachment 115930


I really like the crop you did.  Looks great.


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## kitkatdubs

How do you know when you're ready to start charging?


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## dennybeall

Some good info so far. I would say also to remember it may be the same ole/same ole stuff to you and your husband BUT it's brand new to the client. If that's what the client wants and expects then you're doing your job and may need to express your creativity in other ways.


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## vintagesnaps

When you have no doubts you know how to do the job. I've been a photographer long enough that it's second nature and I know what to do in a variety of situations. (And still, if someone asked me to shoot a wedding I'd run the other direction! I know what I can do and how to get it done as well as what I don't have the expertise or desire to do). And I remember starting out, I was nervous and excited but had no hesitation about doing it.

Try comparing your photos to other *established* portrait photographers in your area (not the people with cameras on facebook and craigslist who underprice), because your work will need to be competitive with that - and you need to learn how to price accordingly. Try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA for info. on contracts, licensing usage, etc. - get info. from working pros (like John - Tirediron).

It's good to start learning what's involved in doing this but with the type questions you've posted I think it seems like you're getting ahead of yourself trying to do portrait sessions. For example, the outdoor portrait session the other day - that would have been better had you gone out and taken pictures that time of day to realize that wasn't going to work, that the info. you got about 2 hrs. before sunset was inaccurate.

There seem to be consistent critiques here that discuss seeing similar issues with what needs to be improved in your photos. So that would tell me those are reliable opinions (where one person's critique could just be personal preference).
It would be beneficial to do more learning before you go further with this.

Try local hands on classes or maybe a local camera club that may have studio space and presenters, etc. Get out with just your camera (or drag your hubby along?? lol) and take pictures so you can get consistently proper exposures, better compositions, etc. Think about the setting, the scene, the time of day - how will that be eventually to add people into the mix? how would it look as a background?

And it helps working with kids/families to know how to interact, how to direct people, etc. If you have way more practice with your camera you'll probably be able to work more efficiently and get the shots so the kids don't have to wait while you putz with your camera or figure out positioning, etc.

If you know what to do then when they say they want ___ you can offer another idea that once they try it, they may like that even better than what they first thought they wanted. Sometimes that's based on something they saw and may not be the only/best option. In the example you gave, what did the person really want? maybe a photo that showed everyone's faces because maybe she/he has seen group photos where you can't see all the faces well. So discuss how you could pose everyone so the faces will show. That's just an example, you'd need to discuss and ask questions to find out why she/he wanted everyone lined up in a row, you might be able to get the look the client wants in a different way that they didn't even know about.

I think it takes time and a lot of practice and learning and you can get there.


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## paigew

I agree your lens is too long. I have used a 70-200 and don't personally care for it. especially for shooting family sessions and the like. I use my 24-70 for sessions with my 135 for a few shots here and there. I agree you should re-evaluate the editing and try to get your subjects to connect more. There are lots of resources for classes on line. I think creative live has been mentioned. Good luck. Keep at it!


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## MidnightUK

A selection of possible resources, in no particular order

1) Try searching on *YouTube* for "*Jared Platt Profoto*" he has about half a dozen tutorials on there. He is very good at explaining the reason why he lights as he does, he does a lot of technical explaining, do not be put off by that, value it! It does not matter if it is indoors or out, listen to why he is putting lights here or there. The problem with most teaching is the lack of explained reasoning. I think the above posters are correct, most trainers do not have the level of sophisticated understanding.

2) For posing and lighting guides try
Jerry Ghionis




and





3) Look at old books (2nd hand shops/internet) on how to portrait light from the 1940s/50s

4) Sue Bryce is a very good poser of people, so anything by her. Example





5) Event Space training by B and H Photo, loads of hour long excellent videos on every aspect of business and photography you can name
B and H

6) Modern books on Cinematography and Lighting (can order them on loan through your local library) as a good film maker knows more about lighting a space as well as the human in it, than most average photographers will ever know. Remember that lighting the space the person is in can totally change how you view the whole image and indeed what your perception of the model is. This is never mentioned by most trainers. It is covered in some of Jared Platts videos, another reason why I think he is good at what he does.

7) Watch films/movies for their lighting effects. It can be helpful if you find the story itself boring! There are a load of out of copyright films on YouTube, the term "full movie" is helpful when searching or use the name of an historic film star. The black and white films can be particularly interesting as you only have to deal with looking at the light and shadows, not the impact of additional colour. (note, do not click on any links to off site videos, stay in YouTube itself.)

8) Try the Strobist website, you may be able to do what you want to do with small flashguns, at least as an initial experiment.
Strobist: Lighting 101 - Understanding Your Flash

9) If you don't already have lights, consider buying Yongnuo brand flashguns from Amazon - they are cheap but everyone finds them very high quality, forums are stacked out with praise for them.

10) Look at any Hollywood stills of stars (google images is your friend) either as portraits or as scenes from film sets. Anything between say the 1930's to 1970's is usually good, the stills photography quality declined pretty fast after that.

11) Corrective posing if the person has flaws - Jeff Smith





12) Christopher Grey, Master lighting guide


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## MidnightUK

My dad, when I got my first camera at 18, used to look though my stack of newly returned prints, put the on the table and say nothing.

He would say he was supportive as he had bothered to look at them at all.

Looking back as an adult I realise he did not want me to grow up and develop because he was afraid of change or that anyone might do better in life than he did (he actually did very well, ironically)

Some people are bored to death by the interests and passtimes of others. 

Some people cannot put praise into words as they were not praised much themselves so have no experience of it, so they want to say good stuff but don't know how to get it out.

Some fear sounding critical when they don't want to hurt you.

You will meet all of these types, both good and bad.  Identify them with care as they can help massively to build your confidence, which is wonderful and to be treasured or undermine utterly in low key ways you hardly notice happening.


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## unpopular

maybe you should get a mutt. A good mutt is great for getting unstuck from a rutt. I know it can be helter skelter at the shelter, but that's the best place to get your unstuck rutt mutt.


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## robbins.photo

unpopular said:


> maybe you should get a mutt. A good mutt is great for getting unstuck from a rutt. I know it can be helter skelter at the shelter, but that's the best place to get your unstuck rutt mutt.



And.... Dr. Seuss has left the building.  Thanks Doc.  Great work as always.


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