# strange rings on films



## Chine (Jun 4, 2015)

Hi all,
I have a problem with develop process. There is strange "texture" (like in the photo below, mi first print), compost of a lot of rings, on the film, after develop. In my opinion I make a mistake in the process. For example, should I use distilled water for the wash? Should I use a wetting agent (so far I have used a dishes detergent)?


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## tirediron (Jun 4, 2015)

It looks like air bubbles to me.  Are you ensuring that the fluids are poured in and out slowly and gently?  Are you tapping the devloping tank several times firmly on the counter to eliminate bubbles?

DO NOT use washing up liquid.  It is NOT a whetting agent, even though it appears to act like one.


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## 480sparky (Jun 4, 2015)

Looks like bubbles.  Did you tap the tank after agitating when using the developer?


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## Chine (Jun 4, 2015)

No, I didn't tap the tank. I'll do it the next time and I'll use an apposite wetting agent. 
Thanks you both


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## The_Traveler (Jun 4, 2015)

try this  reticulation film photography - Google Search


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## Chine (Jun 4, 2015)

thanks


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## chuasam (Jun 4, 2015)

Did you do only one roll and put it in the top reel?


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## Chine (Jun 5, 2015)

chuasam said:


> Did you do only one roll and put it in the top reel?



Yes, I put it in the top reel, why?


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## 480sparky (Jun 5, 2015)

Did you pour in enough developer to immerse both reels?

Standard procedure is to mix up enough developer to immerse the film. If you only develop one roll, you would typically mix that much and put the film at the bottom.

Putting the film on the top means you need to mix more developer (twice as much).  Since most developer is used once and disposed of, that gets wasteful.

If you only mixed enough developer for one spool, and the film was in the top spool, the film wasn't immersed in the developer. It relied on the bubbles to get the developer onto the film.  And since you didn't tap the tank to get rid of bubbles, that forced what little developer on the bubbles to get the job done.


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## limr (Jun 5, 2015)

To me, it looks like bubbles from the dishwashing liquid you used for the wetting agent.

I know that many don't like the idea of using the dishwashing liquid, but I know a lot of people who use it with no problem. The thing to remember, though, is not to use too much. You really only need the tiniest amount. I mean _tiny_ amount. I use JetDry (rinse agent for dishwashers) and I put in one small drop from an eye dropper. That's it. There are some suds after the wash, but I pour slowly and sort of twist the tank as I do so the suds dissipate. I've never had any issues.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 5, 2015)

I think everyone is right on this.
Perhaps there are two things going on; the bubbles from the dishwashing liquid - which is not a wetting agent - affecting the emulsion or leaving residue (yellow)

and the sludge left over from poor washing and cleaning - the red arrow.

Use Jet-dry or , preferably, Photoflo and, as Limr cautioned, a tiny amount. One bottle will last forever.
I always did final rinse with distilled, mineral-free water.


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## Chine (Jun 5, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> I think everyone is right on this.
> Perhaps there are two things going on; the bubbles from the dishwashing liquid - which is not a wetting agent - affecting the emulsion or leaving residue (yellow)
> 
> and the sludge left over from poor washing and cleaning - the red arrow.
> ...



Wetting agents are substances that reduce the surface tension of water, so I think dishwashing liquid is a wetting agent, however I will attempt to use a specific substance.



480sparky said:


> Did you pour in enough developer to immerse both reels?
> 
> Standard procedure is to mix up enough developer to immerse the film. If you only develop one roll, you would typically mix that much and put the film at the bottom.
> 
> ...



I didn't think about this detail



limr said:


> To me, it looks like bubbles from the dishwashing liquid you used for the wetting agent.
> 
> I know that many don't like the idea of using the dishwashing liquid, but I know a lot of people who use it with no problem. The thing to remember, though, is not to use too much. You really only need the tiniest amount. I mean _tiny_ amount. I use JetDry (rinse agent for dishwashers) and I put in one small drop from an eye dropper. That's it. There are some suds after the wash, but I pour slowly and sort of twist the tank as I do so the suds dissipate. I've never had any issues.



I'll try to use a tiny amount of dishwashing liquid as long as I will buy a specific product.


In the end, I'll buy a specific wetting agent (in the meanwhile I'll attempt to use a tiny amount of dishwashing liquid), I'll tap the tank on the table after agitation, I'll use distilled water for the last washing and I'll put the film in the bottom of tank.
end... I'll tell you my next attempt of development.

Thank you all very much.


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## timor (Jun 6, 2015)

In general: nice list of common mistakes in film processing
Olympus Microscopy Resource Center Photomicrography - Black White Film Processing Errors
Dish washing liquid is no good not because of bubbles, but cause it contains skin conditioners and thickening agents which may penetrate the emulsions. For years I am using industrial degreaser which produces a lot of bubbles, but no adverse results in image ( even after 12 years ).
You should experiment a bit. If distilled water will be enough to get rod of water spots on film. If you get fotoflo you have to watch to, it is not any automatic guarantee of success, it has ability to leave a gunk like stuff on the film, but may work for you. Good luck.


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## Chine (Jun 6, 2015)

timor said:


> In general: nice list of common mistakes in film processing
> Olympus Microscopy Resource Center Photomicrography - Black White Film Processing Errors
> Dish washing liquid is no good not because of bubbles, but cause it contains skin conditioners and thickening agents which may penetrate the emulsions. For years I am using industrial degreaser which produces a lot of bubbles, but no adverse results in image ( even after 12 years ).
> You should experiment a bit. If distilled water will be enough to get rod of water spots on film. If you get fotoflo you have to watch to, it is not any automatic guarantee of success, it has ability to a gunk like stuff on the film, but may work for you. Good luck.



This link is great, thanks.


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## Dave442 (Jun 9, 2015)

In the agriculture industry a lot of times adjuvants are added to some chemical applied, this often includes things like surfactants. The adjuvant has to work with the main solution, not changing how much is used but rather improving its performance. 
This is sort of like adding a bit of photo-flo to the rinse water. The water is doing the rinse and the photo-flo is just helping the water achieve better contact with the film.  
With the excellent information the others posted here I think you should be well on your way to having much better results. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.


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## Chine (Jun 10, 2015)

Dave442 said:


> In the agriculture industry a lot of times adjuvants are added to some chemical applied, this often includes things like surfactants. The adjuvant has to work with the main solution, not changing how much is used but rather improving its performance.
> This is sort of like adding a bit of photo-flo to the rinse water. The water is doing the rinse and the photo-flo is just helping the water achieve better contact with the film.
> With the excellent information the others posted here I think you should be well on your way to having much better results. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.



the comparison between agriculture industry and darkroom products is captivating.
I'll tell you my next experiment.


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## Chine (Jul 1, 2015)

Hi all,
last night I developed a new film and it is much better than previous. 
Your advices were very useful, thank you very much.


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## timor (Jul 1, 2015)




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