# Lighting set-ups.



## ronlane

Thought I'd start this over in lighting and hardware.

I've been really putting in some time working on lighting in a studio environment. Having built a background stand out of PVC pipe and using a velour backdrop, I have been working on 2 and 3 light set-ups. The key is camera left with a 38" octabox, the fill is either a speedlight in a 2 foot softbox or a reflector and a studio strobe with a snoot for a hair light. I have shared some selfies with this set-up but I thought I would start this thread to help get some feed back and for others that are starting on this path.

I will start this thread with some photos of a styrofoam head and wig as my "new model" to spare @tirediron from having to see that "old broken down" model that I was using. (Also lets me work a little faster.)

1. Here is the lighting set-up as I built it up. The first image is the Streaklight 360 with a 38" octabox set up in a clamshell type lightest up about 4 feet. It was metered with a Sekonic L-308 to 1/200, ISO 200 at f/5.6. The second is adding a silver reflector set up underneath the key light. And the third adds a hair light that is also metered at 1/200, ISO 200 at f/5.6




2. This second set up images is using the above set-up with the silver reflector but added a gel to the hair light. The first is metered at f/5.6. The second is turned up to about f/8.0. The third is a blue gel going back to f/5.6.



3. These four images are all with the same metering with the red gel but this time I used the white side of the reflector. The difference is the location of the reflector. As you can see in the images, I moved it up and down. The final image of this set is with no reflector at all.

 

My thought is that I like the white reflector on the third image best because of the lighting ratio.

For those of you that are experienced, do I seem to be on the right track with these images? If not, what suggestions do you have?

Oh I did forget to mention that post processing is in LR only. I set the WB to the same on all of the images and I did auto in the basic panel and then zeroed out the exposure for all images.


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## ac12

I suggest looking for a RUBBER head.

The primary reason is you can put clear nail polish on the eye, so that it would reflect light similar to a human eye.  Then you can work the catch light.

The secondary reason is the surface/skin is smooth, so easier for me to view when trying to figure out shadows.  The styrofoam surface is textured so creates its own shadows.  Maybe painting it with latex paint might fix that.
I have one (off eBay).  The only issue that I have is that the nose is too short, so shadows around the nose is not realistic.


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## ronlane

ac12 said:


> I suggest looking for a RUBBER head.
> 
> The primary reason is you can put clear nail polish on the eye, so that it would reflect light similar to a human eye.  Then you can work the catch light.
> 
> The secondary reason is the surface/skin is smooth, so easier for me to view when trying to figure out shadows.  The styrofoam surface is textured so creates its own shadows.  Maybe painting it with latex paint might fix that.
> I have one (off eBay).  The only issue that I have is that the nose is too short, so shadows around the nose is not realistic.



Thank you @ac12. I did paint his head as suggested by Tony Corbell. I am going to start looking for a mannequin upper body that I can use.


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## ac12

Good idea Ron.
When I got my head, I was looking for one with a shoulder, so it could hold a top/blouse, so that I could do a head and shoulder shot.  But no luck.


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## ronlane

I was just looking at Amazon this afternoon and they have some heads that are for hair and make-up practice that are under $30. They have eyes and eyelashes and hair. May have to get one of those and just the torso of the mannequin to pull this off.

Just not sure if I want to spend a lot of money one a subject to practice on for a period of time. Know what I mean?


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## ac12

Be careful, it can get expensive fast.
If you can get something from a store shutdown that would probably be cheapest.
The other is getting separate head and torso to mate properly or at least decently.


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## tirediron

Nice!  Try Craig's List for wig heads, etc.


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## adamhiram

Great progress!  Interesting idea painting the head gray - I have one I got for $8 at a local craft store (that I probably could have gotten for $3 online), but I typically need to underexpose the subject by 1 stop as compared to a real person to avoid blown out highlights on the white styrofoam, and of course don't get to see what the catch lights look like in the eyes.  

Something I have noticed when using the silver side of a reflector - it reflects more light when you want a more even key/fill ratio, but it also tends to add a 2nd catch light, whereas the white side acts more as a subtle highlight in the eyes.  Some people obsess over this, while others don't mind or simply edit it out in post.  I prefer to just use the white side and move it closer if I need more light.


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## tirediron

Now that I'm seeing these on a better monitor, the one comment I will make is that the under-chin shadow seems a little deeper than I would expect for a clamshell set-up, but that might well be due to the properties of the model.


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## ronlane

adamhiram said:


> Great progress!  Interesting idea painting the head gray - I have one I got for $8 at a local craft store (that I probably could have gotten for $3 online), but I typically need to underexpose the subject by 1 stop as compared to a real person to avoid blown out highlights on the white styrofoam, and of course don't get to see what the catch lights look like in the eyes.
> 
> Something I have noticed when using the silver side of a reflector - it reflects more light when you want a more even key/fill ratio, but it also tends to add a 2nd catch light, whereas the white side acts more as a subtle highlight in the eyes.  Some people obsess over this, while others don't mind or simply edit it out in post.  I prefer to just use the white side and move it closer if I need more light.



Thank you. I agree with you about the silver vs the white. I prefer the white myself but on the CS, I may have to use the silver to get things like I want them.



tirediron said:


> Now that I'm seeing these on a better monitor, the one comment I will make is that the under-chin shadow seems a little deeper than I would expect for a clamshell set-up, but that might well be due to the properties of the model.



I don't think it as much the properties of the model as it is the placement and possibly the color of the reflector. The reflector really isn't that close to the subject and may not be positions properly to include the neck in it

It is still a work in progress and I am thinking that my favorite set up for this space is going to be the key on the camera left at about 45 degrees and 4 foot from subject and then to use a reflector (white or silver) to the camera right to fill in the shadows.


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## smoke665

adamhiram said:


> Something I have noticed when using the silver side of a reflector - it reflects more light when you want a more even key/fill ratio,



In addition to more light, I've also found the silver to help alleviate red (rosacea, and other red problem areas).  I use a 22" silver beauty dish both with and without a sock and grid as well as a large 5 in 1 with a silver side.

@ronlane  I'm curious as to why you're using 1/200 and ISO 200 as your go to settings, as opposed to say 1/125 and ISO 100. I can't really determine any significant difference in the faster shutter, as the flash stops any motion. Granted there probably isn't a lot of difference in noise between 100 and 200.


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## ronlane

smoke665 said:


> adamhiram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something I have noticed when using the silver side of a reflector - it reflects more light when you want a more even key/fill ratio,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to more light, I've also found the silver to help alleviate red (rosacea, and other red problem areas).  I use a 22" silver beauty dish both with and without a sock and grid as well as a large 5 in 1 with a silver side.
> 
> @ronlane  I'm curious as to why you're using 1/200 and ISO 200 as your go to settings, as opposed to say 1/125 and ISO 100. I can't really determine any significant difference in the faster shutter, as the flash stops any motion. Granted there probably isn't a lot of difference in noise between 100 and 200.
Click to expand...


Using the 1/200, 200 to kill any ambient light in the space and to make sure that there is not motion in the images it gave me the f/5.6, which gives me enough DOF and not worry about the face not being in focus. There really isn't much difference in ISO 100 and 200 in noise, as far as I have seen. The other thing is that with ISO 200, I can use lower flash power settings and get a little quicker recycle time for the studio strobe I'm using for the hair light.

Those are my reasons for the settings. The other reason is that this is close to settings that I have seen in a number of youtube videos that I have watched on lighting.

I could drage the shutter to 1/125 or even 1/100 with the 85mm and probably set the aperture to f/8.0 but just didn't do that.


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## smoke665

ronlane said:


> Using the 1/200, 200 to kill any ambient light in the space and to make sure that there is not motion in the images it gave me the f/5.6, which gives me enough DOF and not worry about the face not being in focus



I've never had an issue with ambient light and studio lights, except when I tried to use the Dean Collins technique of turning a white background to pure black, but I guess it could create issues depending on location. I try to stay at F/8 on the 70 ltd, because it seems to be the sweet spot for that lens, unless I'm specifically looking for a shallow DOF. Main thing is whatever works well for you, thanks for responding.

On the styrofoam head, I've run into the surface finish problems also. Works great for leaning how shadows fall, but isn't realistic for skin texture. Haven't tried it yet, but I've heard that you can mix Elmer's Glue and a little dye and get a more realistic skin look.


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## adamhiram

ronlane said:


> I could drage the shutter to 1/125 or even 1/100 with the 85mm and probably set the aperture to f/8.0 but just didn't do that.


I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here, but shutter speed shouldn't matter once you've killed the ambient light - your effective shutter speed becomes the flash duration.  1/60 and 1/250 should yield the same results from a flash-only perspective.


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## smoke665

adamhiram said:


> your effective shutter speed becomes the flash duration



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this also apply to motion concerns?


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## adamhiram

smoke665 said:


> adamhiram said:
> 
> 
> 
> your effective shutter speed becomes the flash duration
> 
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this also apply to motion concerns?
Click to expand...

Absolutely - for the Flashpoint AD360, it looks like this equates to 1/220s or faster.  I used to use my camera's fastest sync speed for studio work, which was 1/200 with my old body, 1/250s with the new one.  More recently, I started dialing it down to 1/125 at the advise of a portrait photographer who recommended it as a safe value for working with multiple flash systems, as not all are as responsive to faster sync speeds.  As long as the ambient is gone, it doesn't really make any difference for exposure or motion.


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## ronlane

Guys this is some good feedback. I was reminded of the site where I could show my lighting diagram, so I quickly made one and thought I would share it here.

The one thing that I am wanting to do is make the white velour backdrop to be a black backdrop. I have about 5-6 feet of room from the backdrop to the subject and about the same to my camera. I have tried to feather the octabox away from the backdrop to help but even without the spill from the homemade snoot, I am getting light on the backdrop. It's a small space even for a living room.

Any suggestions.


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## adamhiram

ronlane said:


> The one thing that I am wanting to do is make the white velour backdrop to be a black backdrop.


You may need to spend a few bucks on a roll of black seamless paper or other black backdrop to accomplish that in such a small space.  You may recall I attempted to do the same thing with a medium gray seamless backdrop using the same setup, and even with 8-10' of space and a grid on the octobox, there was still some spill I couldn't prevent.  It's easy enough to fix in post using the adjustment brush, but in my experience that's just not enough space to prevent spill when you likely have walls on either side bouncing light.


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## smoke665

ronlane said:


> Any suggestions.



As I recall your background needs to be 4 full REFLECTIVE stops below the INCIDENT reading on your subject to go completely black. So if you meter for an incident reading of f/5.6 at the subject, then you'd need a reflective reading of the background at the camera of f/22. Obviously the further away from the background the easier it will be, but  it can still be done. One thing you might also consider is the use of flags to block light and using a longer tube to modify your snoot. As I mentioned earlier this is a place where I found ambient light to a significant issue to overcome, because even without spill light to contend with I was having a hard time getting down to that  4 stop spread. Not surprisingly it was easier to take a black background white then a white to black.


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## ronlane

Thank you @adamhiram  and @smoke665. This is some good information.

My plan is to purchase some black velour in the future to make it easier. But I am waiting to find some on sale and since I haven't been in a fabric store in like 10 years, i'm going to have to get my wife or mom to get it for me.


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## smoke665

ronlane said:


> My plan is to purchase some black velour in the future to make it easier.



Actually my memory was off  just a little, it takes a difference of 4 1/2 stops to take a white background black. Here is where I did my experimentation using Dean Collins methods, and the video link. Adjusting Background LIght Study Using his methods takes a little practice to get it right, but once you do, you can make anything you want from a plain white background.

In addition to flags, grids will help to consolidate your light spread. Also you know the closer your light the softer it is, but the closer it is the less spread there is as well. Take your snoot move it up about 3' from a wall and snap a shot with it, now move it back 10' from the wall and snap a shot - compare the circles of light. It's a good visual of how light spread can increase with distance from the subject.


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## ac12

ronlane said:


> Thank you @adamhiram  and @smoke665. This is some good information.
> 
> My plan is to purchase some black velour in the future to make it easier. But I am waiting to find some on sale and since I haven't been in a fabric store in like 10 years, i'm going to have to get my wife or mom to get it for me.



Go check out Joann's or similar.
You might get some ideas browsing the fabrics.
I got natural (light tan) muslin and one other fabric for my backdrop.
You just need someone to sew a pocket at the top to run your horizontal support through, for even support.  Clamps don't work well, I tried.


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## JBPhotog

ronlane said:


> Thank you @adamhiram  and @smoke665. This is some good information.
> 
> My plan is to purchase some black velour in the future to make it easier. But I am waiting to find some on sale and since I haven't been in a fabric store in like 10 years, i'm going to have to get my wife or mom to get it for me.



LOL, I venture into fabric shops quite often, without my wife or a female chaperone. Although this is 2018 and gender bias is supposed to be going the way of buggy whips, I do get looks from the female customers but just shrug it off, ha ha.

I am always looking for background ideas, accent fabrics, velcro etc. Black felt is a great option for killing spill or flagging a set and comes in double widths @100" wide.


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## ac12

JBPhotog said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you @adamhiram  and @smoke665. This is some good information.
> 
> My plan is to purchase some black velour in the future to make it easier. But I am waiting to find some on sale and since I haven't been in a fabric store in like 10 years, i'm going to have to get my wife or mom to get it for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I venture into fabric shops quite often, without my wife or a female chaperone. Although this is 2018 and gender bias is supposed to be going the way of buggy whips, I do get looks from the female customers but just shrug it off, ha ha.
> 
> I am always looking for background ideas, accent fabrics, velcro etc. Black felt is a great option for killing spill or flagging a set and comes in double widths @100" wide.
Click to expand...


He he, I don't worry about what others think.
As far as I am concerned, a fabric store is simply another supply store.
I've gone into beauty stores, to buy a dozen nail buffers for my other hobby, where I needed a SUPER FINE abrasive pad.
Women stockings make great charcoal filter media holder for fish tanks.
I've used finger nail polish for decades, to secure small screws, so they won't back out.
And if you ever split your nail  , you need to go into the cosmetic section of the store to talk to the gals about nail stuff to hold the two halves of the nail together.  That HURT.


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## JBPhotog

I still own a silk stocking diffusion filter set I built over 30 years ago for my film days way before PS. You should have seen the look on the ladies face when I told her what I needed them for, I am positive she believed me, ha ha ha!


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## Derrel

Regarding "killing ambient" as an automatic or as a "given"...

Ummmm...one poster in this thread in another thread stated that he almost always turns OFF the modeling lamps after setting the lights in their position...

With bright modeling lights, and an f/5.6 lens opening, at a slow synch speed of say 1/60 second, it's pretty easy to get ghosting, and ambient light effects from powerful in-flash modeling lights. The difference between f/5.6 and f/11 is pretty major too...in the f/5.6 aperture range, there's PLENTY of light that will add to an image (often in a bad way, but at times, in a good way) in the form of either warmer, tungsten-tinged yellow tones, or even worse, a subtle "ghost" image that is formed, kind of underneath the flash image. The idea that ambient is "killed" automatically is not always the case, especially with high-intensity, quartz-halogen modeling lights that are bright.

It's ALWAYS a good idea to shoot a couple of *no-flash-fired* test shots, to verify that the ambient light level is sufficiently well below (meaning darken than) the f/stop and shutter speed and the ISO in use, to make darned sure that the ambient light (fluorescent, sun, modeling lights) are not affecting the exposure in some way. If on the test shots, with the flash trigger set to OFF or the PC sync cord disconnected, if there's a faint greenish or yellowish or reddish, under-exposed image visible at the ISO, f/stop, and shutter speed being used...that is going to pollute your colors...


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## ac12

JBPhotog said:


> I still own a silk stocking diffusion filter set I built over 30 years ago for my film days way before PS. You should have seen the look on the ladies face when I told her what I needed them for, I am positive she believed me, ha ha ha!



I remember those  
Did you use neutral or black?


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## mrca

I still use a softar filter but used to experiment with a black Victoria Secret stocking material rubberbanded over the end of the lens.  Also, with my Einsteins setting the modeling light to bulb, the modeling light goes off when the flash pops.  Only time could encounter it effecting the color is in burst- in lower power ranges where I live, I get 6 pops per second- when it may not have time to cycle fully off.  I prefer a dark studio, my last was totally dark, so ambient isn't a problem.  I don't like to turn my modeling lights off on main and fill because I use them to control pupil size.  They are 250 watts on the Einsteins.  Also,  I  custom white balance then use a color checker passport on the first shot of a set up and adjust warmth uniformly in post.


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## JBPhotog

ac12 said:


> JBPhotog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still own a silk stocking diffusion filter set I built over 30 years ago for my film days way before PS. You should have seen the look on the ladies face when I told her what I needed them for, I am positive she believed me, ha ha ha!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember those
> Did you use neutral or black?
Click to expand...


I have black, grey and skin tone, the black was the most used. The skin tone was beautiful for a warming fog effect over the entire frame. I can not even remotely remember the brand but they were pricey and a very fine weave which made for a prefect soft filter affect.


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## JBPhotog

mrca said:


> I still use a softar filter but used to experiment with a black Victoria Secret stocking material rubberbanded over the end of the lens.  Also, with my Einsteins setting the modeling light to bulb, the modeling light goes off when the flash pops.  Only time could encounter it effecting the color is in burst- in lower power ranges where I live, I get 6 pops per second- when it may not have time to cycle fully off.  I prefer a dark studio, my last was totally dark, so ambient isn't a problem.  I don't like to turn my modeling lights off on main and fill because I use them to control pupil size.  They are 250 watts on the Einsteins.  Also,  I  custom white balance then use a color checker passport on the first shot of a set up and adjust warmth uniformly in post.



My modelling lights are also 250 watt and never become an issue unless I am doing multiple pops to build exposure in large format settings where F32 and bellows extension drops the EV. Or when burning in LCD and LED panels.

I too prefer a dark studio and with 64 ISO as my base and 1/250 sync there are not many cases where contamination can occur. A light meter and WB card for post processing are standard procedure.


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## mrca

JB,  it is why I like the 64 base iso.   Victoria Secret has an amazing thigh high with a fine fabric and the smoothest hand I have found.  Before I used lifting straps in the gym, the palm calluses at the base of the pinkie would quickly produce a run in my girlfriends stockings before we got out of the driveway.   It would really tick her off as they are pretty expensive.  But  I only used them as the diffusion material.  But the softar filter has it's own look.  However, it is baked into the shot if you wish it was sharp.


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## JBPhotog

mrca, maybe this topic could be a thread of its own?

Although I owned both Hasselblad Softar I and II's, I never really liked the effect, just too much blur for me from the small lenses spattered across the filter. Nikon made and I owned two really nice soft filters that used silver particles and a chemical to create particulate diffusion, a totally unique approach for a glass filter. Unfortunately mine were in 52mm thread and I no longer own any lenses with that filter diameter so I sold them a number of years ago. I agree, with digital now, baking anything into the file before post is like shooting JPEG only, something I avoid now.

The stockings or "nets" as the term was in those days, acted a lot like the Nikon Soft filters by offering a mechanical barrier to diffuse the light reaching the film/sensor plane. The studio I was working in used a point source enlarger and the nets made for a really unique look to the prints.

I resist commenting on why you couldn't keep your hands off your girlfriends legs before you got out of the driveway, LOL.


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## smoke665

ronlane said:


> Using the 1/200, 200 to kill any ambient light in the space



I'm in the process of calibrating my L308 to my camera and thought you might be interested in this from the FAQ page from Sekonic on matching meter readings to camera Lighting set-ups. In particular #3 _Set the camera to its highest possible synch speed so any ambient light will not affect the meter's reading. (*Sekonic meters will “see” any ambient light that is present and able to affect exposure-even in flash mode).  *_Now I'm curious how much it will affect the meter.


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## ronlane

Thanks @smoke665, that is interesting. I've not calibrated my meter to my camera.


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## smoke665

@ronlane sorry I just noticed I pasted the wrong link above. It should be Sekonic > Support > FAQs: Calibrating your flash meter  In testing this I really didn't find any difference between faster vs slower shutter speeds. The 308 does not have compensation adjustment at the meter, you have to adjust accordingly at the camera. On the new K1 the meter and camera are very close, on the K3 it ran about a third stop under. I've gleaned a lot of useful information from Sekonic's site.


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## ronlane

Thanks @smoke665


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## mrca

I calibrate my camera's to my sekonic  758 but do it with sunlight so not sure why this would be a problem.   When you calibrate you know EXACTLY  where your highlight clipping point is when you take a meter reading and can push the non specular highlights right to the limit where you can pull them back in post.  This moves the shadows to the right as far as possible meaning the best possible shadows.   The exposure may not be perfect for what you want as middle gray, but that can be adjusted in post as well.   The capture may not look perfect out of camera, but it will ultimately produce the best possible file.   What has been surprising me though is the dynamic range of the d850 and how well the shadows are rendered.   Coming from 7 years with a d700 I will look at a scene and expect clipping at one end and it is completely within the histogram.   But for those trying to produce the best image possible, a calibrated meter is invaluable.


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## mrca

I calibrate my camera's to my sekonic  758 but do it with sunlight so not sure why this would be a problem.   When you calibrate you know EXACTLY  where your highlight clipping point is when you take a meter reading and can push the non specular highlights right to the limit where you can pull them back in post.  This moves the shadows to the right as far as possible meaning the best possible shadows.   The exposure may not be perfect for what you want as middle gray, but that can be adjusted in post as well.   The capture may not look perfect out of camera, but it will ultimately produce the best possible file.   What has been surprising me though is the dynamic range of the d850 and how well the shadows are rendered.   Coming from 7 years with a d700 I will look at a scene and expect clipping at one end and it is completely within the histogram.   But for those trying to produce the best image possible, a calibrated meter is invaluable.


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