# If you've been asked to do a job and have agreed to do it, should you...



## c.cloudwalker (May 24, 2012)

really be here asking how to do it?

If you come here to ask how to do a job, shouldn't that tell you that, maybe, most probably, you should have turned it down?

Anyway, here's another little stupid poll :lmao:


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## KenC (May 24, 2012)

Should one add that the reason the hedgehog has an upset stomach is that she ate all the memory cards and the flash sync cord?


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## Robin Usagani (May 24, 2012)

I just shoot it and ask what I did wrong on this forum


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## c.cloudwalker (May 24, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> I just shoot it and ask what I did wrong on this forum



:lmao:

Good deal, lol.

You are not going to learn anything this way but you won't be weirded out too much when you actually run into a pro who tells you how things actually work :lmao:

Not my favorite way of doing things but it might work well enough...







KenC said:


> Should one add that the reason the hedgehog has an upset stomach is that she ate all the memory cards and the flash sync cord?



Hell no. Don't go into too much details. Especially ones your insurance company would not like.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:
			
		

> really be here asking how to do it?
> 
> If you come here to ask how to do a job, shouldn't that tell you that, maybe, most probably, you should have turned it down?
> 
> Anyway, here's another little stupid poll :lmao:



Whoo hooo! another random poll,  BTW hedgehogs rule


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## Trever1t (May 24, 2012)

It doesn't matter if it's Photography or Animal care (sometimes the same?) If you agree to take on a job you better be prepared to complete the task. That said I've had plenty of jobs where I learned on the go, although I think that's a bit difficult with photography.


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## c.cloudwalker (May 24, 2012)

Trever1t said:


> It doesn't matter if it's Photography or Animal care (sometimes the same?) If you agree to take on a job you better be prepared to complete the task. That said I've had plenty of jobs where I learned on the go, although I think that's a bit difficult with photography.



sometimes the same?   That is a very good one. And yes, on this forum, it sometimes feel the same.


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## Robin Usagani (May 24, 2012)

Just do it.. nothing photoshop cant fix


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

I was offered a job which was taking me from $18.00 an hour to $155,000.00 a year.

When I was offered the job, I didn't hesitate. I said "yes".The fact that I had only a passing idea how to actually do the job didn't give me a second's pause; I would figure it out. One of the ways I figured it out was to ask advice from those who were already doing the same job.

I've been a membor of countless internet forums over the years, but I'm amazed at the level of vitriol which is directed towards people on this forum who've had the audacity to simply ask for a little advice...


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> I was offered a job which was taking me from $18.00 an hour to $155,000.00 a year.
> 
> When I was offered the job, I didn't hesitate. I said "yes".The fact that I had only a passing idea how to actually do the job didn't give me a second's pause; I would figure it out. One of the ways I figured it out was to ask advice from those who were already doing the same job.
> 
> I've been a membor of countless internet forums over the years, but I'm amazed at the level of vitriol which is directed towards people on this forum who've had the audacity to simply ask for a little advice...



But most of that little advice can found in the Googles, schools, YouTubes.  It's not really the questions, but more importantly the lack of basic research and too little information given that drives people nuts. 
 If this was a computer forum, and a "noob" wanted to go pro, but ask how to install WinXP or how to burn a disc; you are damn right I would boo and heckle them until my thumb was blistered and sore.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Well, there does seem to be an influx of Help Needed Posting Titles that appear to be Panic Driven.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> But most of that little advice can found in the Googles, schools, YouTubes.



So what?

Here's a news flash: The Photo Forum shows up when you do certain Google searches. So, it meets at least some of the criteria you seem to be setting. 

Why s_houldn't s_omeone be able to ask basic questions here? 

The way I see it, if someone is able to waste the time to hurl vitriol at someone for asking a question, they could've just as easily been helpful in that same time frame. 

"Booing and heckling" someone are childish antics. Sure, it's easy to do, and I have to imagine that it makes you feel all fluffy when you get to do it, but why not be helpful? Does it make you feel clever and smart to deride someone who's just looking for a little help? Because, I've got news for you, "clever" and "smart" aren't the first two words that come to mind when I see someone do that.

What do you accomplish by berating someone as opposed to helping them?


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> I've been a membor of countless internet forums over the years, but I'm amazed at the level of vitriol which is directed towards people on this forum who've had the audacity to simply ask for a little advice...



At the same time, I have been a "membor" to numerous internet forums over the years for varies trades and hobbies, and by far this one gets some of the most basic questions with *very* easily found answers, *using the same technology used to find this very forum*. 

Frankly, coming from a generation that DIDN'T have this amazing,* instant*, ability to do research, I find it mind boggling what needs to be spoon fed these days. Additionally, since these same questions are asked repeatedly on this and other photography forums, it's amazing the number of people that can't take the time to actually browse the forum and find answers to their questions.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Cloud, I think your question is a bit too broad.  If your are coming here or to any form with a question like, "*I love photography and have been taking pictures for 3 weeks.  My friend asked me to shoot her wedding and I said yes.  What things should I know?*"  I think most of us would agree that the person should run, not walk away from the job.

On the other hand if the question is something like, _*"I have been shooting family portraits for years and am well versed in the craft, however it is beginning to seem like every session is the same thing.  Does anyone have suggestions for different posing, techniques etc. that I might try?"*_  Personally to me this is a person that can and is doing the job, is just wanting to improve on what they do and has no reason to turn down a job.  

Just my take on the matter.


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## jamesbjenkins (May 24, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> I just shoot it and ask what I did wrong on this forum



Well, that's the MO of 89.75% of the fauxtographers on this forum, isn't it?


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

The most successful people in life are not the ones that know the most, rather, those that know how to utilize their resources to get the answers they need. This forum is just one of the many resources.  Those that don&#8217;t get it, can&#8217;t or don&#8217;t want to.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> So what?
> 
> Here's a news flash: The Photo Forum shows up when you do certain Google searches. So, it meets at least some of the criteria you seem to be setting.
> 
> ...



You're are right about the booing and heckling part is childish; but in the same sense, many people want us( myself excluded because I.still new to this hobby) to hold their hand and guess where/what OP wants help.  

From a personal stand point asking for help is a two way street.  Any OP needs to bring us important information in terms of budget, how far does the OP want to pursue this hobby/profession.  In what genre does the OP want to specialize in.  

Perfect, recent example was a person who bought a D800, started a thread in a bold letters "Help Me Use My d800".  It's common courtisey to bring basic information to the table, better yet show some examples with exif to make the "Help Me" experience better.  Good debate, solid, no low blows let's get it on lol.


PS. Sometimes people need to learn the hardway. Apologize for any grammatical errors, it's pint night and I'm on a cellio phone.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> On the other hand if the question is something like, _*"I have been shooting family portraits for years and am well versed in the craft, however it is beginning to seem like every session is the same thing.  Does anyone have suggestions for different posing, techniques etc. that I might try?"*_  Personally to me this is a person that can and is doing the job, is just wanting to improve on what they do and has no reason to turn down a job.



It would be nice if that were true.

Not long ago, someone started a thread in which they requested some advice. Also in that thread, they said something to the effect of "I'm a pretty good photographer". Nowhere in that thread was there a wealth of advice. However, people did think it appropriate to ask "You're 'pretty good'? According to who?"

The person was torn apart for that simple statement.

I stand firm in the belief that it's stupid to demean, deride or insult someone for asking a question, regardless of how simple or basic it is. If someone can take the time to criticize a person for asking something so basic, then that person can take the time to be helpful, and they won't come across as a complete and utter ass in doing so.

Additionally, those who defend such replies also come across as complete asses...


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> Steve5D said:
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Well, the reality is that, often times, a beginner won't know what they need to ask, or what information they need to have.

And they get raked over the coals for it...


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## jamesbjenkins (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> I was offered a job which was taking me from $18.00 an hour to $155,000.00 a year.
> 
> When I was offered the job, I didn't hesitate. I said "yes".The fact that I had only a passing idea how to actually do the job didn't give me a second's pause; I would figure it out. One of the ways I figured it out was to ask advice from those who were already doing the same job.
> 
> I've been a membor of countless internet forums over the years, but I'm amazed at the level of vitriol which is directed towards people on this forum who've had the audacity to simply ask for a little advice...



Steve,

I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, and I've only been here for a few months... But, what fries my bacon isn't these people that come on here and ask questions, it's that the content of their questions are so elementary that a simple Google query and 5 minutes of reading would give them a far more complete answer.  As IByte said, if someone is asking an informed question about their craft, I am *more than enthusiastic* to offer my advice (since it wasn't but 3 or 4 years ago I was asking most of those same questions).

However, to everyone who wastes my time and yours with the 1,435,495th "what's a good lens for my (insert entry-level crop body here)?" or the "My friends and family think I'm awesome, help me figure out how to shoot my friend Sally's wedding", you can believe I'm going to be happily posting a not-so-gentle suggestion that they type their question into a search engine instead of being so damned lazy as to expect us to pour the knowledge directly into their cerebrums.  There's a reason literally millions of pages of information have already been provided on every conceivable topic a n00b could be pondering...

Just my $0.02


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

Have you ever considered that sometimes a person doesnt know how to find what they are seeking by using the search feature on this forum? Have you ever used it? It isnt exactly the most user friendly or helpful tool.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

If someone can't google a basic question or look in their manual then they should only have a point and shoot in their hands...


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I was offered a job which was taking me from $18.00 an hour to $155,000.00 a year.
> ...



It's only a waste of time if you post something nasty and unhelpful. I don't see how any other option (being helpful or simply not responding) is wasting anyone's time.

As I said, you can Google certain things and this forum will come up in the search results. Should that be ignored and, if so, why?

I read countless questions all the time which I think are ridiculously elementary and basic. Sometimes I'll reply. Other times, if I find myself rolling my eyes, I'll just move on.

Again, something no one apparently wants to answer is the issue of what's to be gained by demeaning someone who simply asks a question?


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> If someone can't google a basic question or look in their manual then they should only have a point and shoot in their hands...



Well, that's really kinda' stupid, don't you think?

After all, there's an entire sub-forum here dedicate to "basic". What do you think should go on there, if not "basic" discussions?

And, again, for everyone saying that the person should use Google: Google is how I found this forum. So, if someone uses Google and comes across this forum, why is it so offensive that a beginner would come here looking for help after availing themselves of Google, as is repeatedly being suggested here?

I'll ask you, since no one else seems to want to tackle this little brain teaser: What's to be gained by being unhelpful and demeaning?


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## Trever1t (May 24, 2012)

Sometimes letting another member know that the question could be answered with a rudamentary search or that they shouldn't quit their day job is helpful. Not all helpful advice is sweet like a bowl of strawberries eh? Granted there's no need for rudeness.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:
			
		

> Have you ever considered that sometimes a person doesnt know how to find what they are seeking by using the search feature on this forum? Have you ever used it? It isnt exactly the most user friendly or helpful tool.



But at same if they're having navigational issues, they have the YouTube, and only thing they need to type was Cannon vs Nikon, or go to a Best Buy store(ugh) and feel both bodies.  Or a camera store pick their brains(their reputations on the line)  Google Fro Know Photos(knowledgable guy IMO), etc.  Too many research material to list, but nevertheless resources are out there.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand if the question is something like, _*"I have been shooting family portraits for years and am well versed in the craft, however it is beginning to seem like every session is the same thing.  Does anyone have suggestions for different posing, techniques etc. that I might try?"*_  Personally to me this is a person that can and is doing the job, is just wanting to improve on what they do and has no reason to turn down a job.
> ...



I won't disagree with most of what you say.  There is no reason to pick them apart for asking a question.   There does however need to be some thought on their part when asking a question.  Like everything in life you get out what you put in.  If a person will take the time to provide a bit if pertinent information in their question it is easier to provide guidance and answers. 

As a trained educator, I will state however, that there are stupid questions that get asked.  Any question that a simple 5 minutes of research can be answerer on the part of the questioner is a stupid question if they did not do their research.  That still does not mean that they should be insulted.  Rather that is a question to just be ignored.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Steve, we've been down this road before. 

The majority or people here do not plan or intend to be demeaning. If it happens then it happens. The argument that TPF comes up in a google search is true from time to time. That does not mean that TPF is here to become a customer service center call in center for immediate repsonses for all things photogrpahy just because it is here. TPF is not here to fill that role and there is no obligation to tolerate being used in that manner. 

Everyone who works hard to learn and perfect their end results is respected. Those who are looking for short cuts don't really stay here long because they can't make it due to the level of work and dilligence required.

And I really think that you should practice what you preach. My opinion is cetainly not Stupid simply becasue you don't follow it or that you disagree with it, so you just lost big points with me with that inflammatory remark.


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## jamesbjenkins (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> What's to be gained by being unhelpful and demeaning?



Absolutely nothing.  However, there is plenty to be gained by reminding people that there are resources on literally millions of webpages (and thousands of threads on this forum) that, with 99.99999% certainty, already answer their question.

A lot of these MWACs want to be spoon fed.  I'm not OK with that.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > What's to be gained by being unhelpful and demeaning?
> ...



MWAC's???


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
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> 
> > Steve5D said:
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*M*om* W*ith *A C*amera

Now I dare you to ask me what SNAFU and FUBAR mean.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Steve, we've been down this road before.
> 
> The majority or people here do not plan or intend to be demeaning. If it happens then it happens. The argument that TPF comes up in a google search is true from time to time. That does not mean that TPF is here to become a customer service center call in center for immediate repsonses for all things photogrpahy just because it is here. TPF is not here to fill that role and there is no obligation to tolerate being used in that manner.
> 
> ...



It's a discussion forum, at least in part, is it not?

If I were so inclined, I could list pages of posts in which people are taken to task for asking something that a more seasoned photographer would consider "basic". It happens a lot. My question is "Why?" 

What's to be gained by it?

Why won't anyone even attempt to answer that?

Whether one "plans" to do it or not is of no consequence. It happens, and it happens every single day, many times a day.

Honestly, you've gotten your panties all kotted over this. Last time I checked, there was no real membership criteria for this forum, nor do I recall ever reading a rule which states that basic questions should not be presented here.

I don't understand how seeking out advice here is taking a "shortcut".

You seem to want this forum to be some sort of exclusive club. Well, it's not.

So, let me ask you again: What's to be gained by demeaning someone, being rude, and by being unhelpful? Would it not be easier to simply move along and forget about the post altogether? Or are you one of those people who need to inflate your own sense of self-importance by cutting others down?


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Ohhhh...I thought it probably might have been *Men* With A Camera...thanks for straighening me out on that one. wink, wink.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Absolutely nothing.  However, there is plenty to be gained by reminding people that there are resources on literally millions of webpages (and thousands of threads on this forum) that, with 99.99999% certainty, already answer their question.



Why is is that The Photo Forum _shouldn't _be considered one of those "millions of webpages"?


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, we've been down this road before.
> ...


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Ohhhh...I thought it probably might have been *Men* With A Camera...thanks for straighening me out on that one. wink, wink.



*Get Freaking Real here GeorgieGirl*!  Men won't stop and ask Directions, so they sure as heck aren't going to come here and start by asking a bunch of silly questions.  Men don't start asking a bunch of silly questions until AFTER they have screwed something up.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Ohhhh...I thought it probably might have been *Men* With A Camera...thanks for straighening me out on that one. wink, wink.
> ...



Dayum... So if I *Google Men With a Camera,* I come right here to TPF???


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Here's what you can do...you can just stop complaining right here and now about what every one else does and you can start to worry just about you and start to file in and start to answer questions in a way that you feel suits. Then you will be happy. Maybe. But if your desire is to stir the pot and argue about things you have no control over here on TPF, and it is looking like that to me at least, then I think your efforts are probably going to be short lived.
> 
> You want productive discussion, go and make it with those who need your immediate help. The floor is yours to do just that.



Wow.

Really, there's no need to get quite that pissy. True, I have no control over the way people here react to basic questions, just as those who get pissy; people like you, have no control over what questions beginners ask.

Again, what's to be gained by demeaning someone who asks a question, regardless of how simple?

If asking about that is "stirring the pot" then, yeah, call me guilty.

But at least I'm comfortable enough to not feel the need to shred someone else apart.

Clearly, you are not burdened by that same comfort...


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

If you aren't in The Club and know the secret handshake you dont stand a chance. You have to stand over in the corner with all of the other un-cool kids and be quiet. Come to think of it, it kinda reminds me of 40+ years ago, when I was in middle school.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > GeorgieGirl said:
> ...



Ok Precious girl, let me explain this to you.  If you Google *Mom With A Camera* you come to TPF.  If you Google *Men With A Camera *you get sent to http://www.HowToFixItSinceYouBrokeIt.com


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Yes, Hugh, its still like that, even in the workplace. Funny how things don't change, we just seem to be able to understand why there are outcasts when a particular tone is set. Like coming to class prepared and doing your homeowrk. 40 years ago there was The World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica and there was no internet and no way to learn anything beyond self-propelled reseach and study.

Photography is a deep mental exercise. It's about interest and its about putting in the time and the effort and the research to accomplish something beyond because it is so nebulous. IMO, people generally do not mind filling in a Knowledge Gap though message boards and discussion. 

But I'll say it again, there is no substitute for the self-propelled work that is required to achiveve. No short cuts for that, unless one is interested in mediocrity. And unless anyone hasn't noticed, that's not really an option here.

So yes, the exclusive club says NO to mediocrity.


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## Overread (May 24, 2012)

Eh the forums would be dead quite if no one ever asked a question that hadn't been asked before on the net or which didn't have the answer somewhere. 

The whole "spoon feeding" thing comes up time and time again and I honestly think some people enjoy debating/arguing/ranting about it more than they should. Honestly participation in the forums is 100% volentary - if you don't want to answer a question that has appeared a billion times before - you don't answer it. Close the tab and move on to something more interesting*






* if there's nothing more interesting - well - you could always make an interesting thread about a topic you like to discuss - I oft note those who complain that "this question is here for the 10001 time" also complain that there is nothing for them; that there is no advanced discussion - however they are also remiss in that they never actively seek to start it. We've a number of advanced photographers willing to teach and help others - but few will simply start up discussions at random - you gotta ask - you gotta be bold and start the thread yourself if you want it to happen. 






Oh as for the question - Take the money and RUN!


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> Eh the forums would be dead quite if no one ever asked a question that hadn't been asked before on the net or which didn't have the answer somewhere.
> 
> The whole "spoon feeding" thing comes up time and time again and I honestly think some people enjoy debating/arguing/ranting about it more than they should. Honestly participation in the forums is 100% volentary - if you don't want to answer a question that has appeared a billion times before - you don't answer it. Close the tab and move on to something more interesting*
> 
> ...



I miss the photo guy.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

OK...I'm gonna go set my house on fire right now.


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## Overread (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> OK...I'm gonna go set my house on fire right now.



Make sure take lotsa pictures!


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:
			
		

> Yes, Hugh, its still like that, even in the workplace. Funny how things don't change, we just seem to be able to understand why there are outcasts when a particular tone is set. Like coming to class prepared and doing your homeowrk. 40 years ago there was The World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica and there was no internet and no way to learn anything beyond self-propelled reseach and study.
> 
> Photography is a deep mental exercise. It's about interest and its about putting in the time and the effort and the research to accomplish something beyond because it is so nebulous. IMO, people generally do not mind filling in a Knowledge Gap though message boards and discussion.
> 
> ...



They can't even spring for cliff notes


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> OK...I'm gonna go set my house on fire right now.



Well before you do, remember a bit of advise my momma gave me years ago.  She said, _"Remember now, never take candy from strangers unless they also offer you a ride."_


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Yes, Hugh, its still like that, even in the workplace. Funny how things don't change, we just seem to be able to understand why there are outcasts when a particular tone is set. Like coming to class prepared and doing your homeowrk. 40 years ago there was The World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica and there was no internet and no way to learn anything beyond self-propelled reseach and study.
> 
> Photography is a deep mental exercise. It's about interest and its about putting in the time and the effort and the research to accomplish something beyond because it is so nebulous. IMO, people generally do not mind filling in a Knowledge Gap though message boards and discussion.
> 
> ...



There is always an answer that side steps the whole point.

If you dont like to answer the "stupid questions" click the little clicky button thingy on your computer and go to the next thread. If you dont want to ready the noobs question that has already been asked one million times, click the little clicky button thingy on your computer and go to the next thread. If you dont want to help someone out that has a question, click the little clicky button thingy on your computer and go to the next thread. Or, you can hang around the thread and complain how tired you are of reading all of the stupid question from all of the noobs that will never be the amazing photographer you are.
Do you REALLY not see any flaws with your arguement? Really? But the person that cannot use the poorly engineered search function on this forum doesnt deserve a camera other than a point an shoot?
I dont believe anyone truly believes that logic. Not even you.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
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This is it!!! I rest my case.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Hugh, its still like that, even in the workplace. Funny how things don't change, we just seem to be able to understand why there are outcasts when a particular tone is set. Like coming to class prepared and doing your homeowrk. 40 years ago there was The World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica and there was no internet and no way to learn anything beyond self-propelled reseach and study.
> ...



Don't twist it around, but YES, if you are not prepared to put in the time and effort and want to just use Cliff Notes, then sorry for ya. If you think there are details or protocols that can be skipped or missed in Photography, then I'm really intested in a few examples from you.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:
			
		

> OK...I'm gonna go set my house on fire right now.



Remember the rule of the thirds Oo.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
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Check.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.  

Being rude is not necessary, but pointing out a few facts of life, while it may seem harsh, serves a purpose for the whole, be it a forum like this or society in general.


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

All of those words and Steve5D's question STILL hasn't been answered. And it never will be. Because there isnt a logical answer. You pretend like you JUST HATE the drama, yet you love to roll in it.
Its really quite simple. If you dont like the "noob posts", dont read em'.


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## Overread (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.
> 
> Being rude is not necessary, but pointing out a few facts of life, while it may seem harsh, serves a purpose for the whole, be it a forum like this or society in general.



The problem is too many like to be the ones to point out the fault and be harsh. Thus you end up with someone getting mobbed on by a pack of hounds. Even if each replier manages (and they never do) to remain polite the combined effect is similar to a single strong insult. And when someone is new and can't judge peoples views for views and not insult - well - its no surprise that they either leave or fight back (and the inevitable result of that is a long drawn out thread and a lock at the end). 


Those seeking to make TPF an elite place - eh - you're doing it totally wrong if you think the way forward is to scare new people away. That only ever kills a forum. If you want the higher class you gotta first make the enticing threads to talk on the level with them.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Don't twist it around, but YES, if you are not prepared to put in the time and effort and want to just use Cliff Notes, then sorry for ya. If you think there are details or protocols that can be skipped or missed in Photography, then I'm really intested in a few examples from you.



What do you gain by being rude and demeaning?


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.
> 
> Being rude is not necessary, but pointing out a few facts of life, while it may seem harsh, serves a purpose for the whole, be it a forum like this or society in general.



Point is, there are more than just a few people here who need to be demeaning and rude in order to feel worthwhile, simply because they have nothing to offer otherwise.

You're right, being rude isn't necessary, but it's done every single day. 

What's the benefit?


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> Its really quite simple. If you dont like the "noob posts", dont read em'.



As intelligent as some people here would like you to believe they are, it's a small marvel that they're unable to figure that out on their own...


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.
> 
> Being rude is not necessary, but pointing out a few facts of life, while it may seem harsh, serves a purpose for the whole, be it a forum like this or society in general.


I dont disagree with that statement one bit. That was not the point. There a just a few that can only slam certain people but never offer anything constructive. Its a fad of a few. The "Exclusive Club"  :lmao: What a joke.
It's not even about photography or this forum. It's about being respectable or being a self righteous jerk.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

Ya know what's just as bad as those stupid questions being asked over and over?
The number of time threads like this appear with people arguing about how other people respond to posts.

You know what? Same rule applies. If you don't like how people respond to posts, don't read them!

It's more fun to argue about though isn't it?

 Yeah. 

It is. 

Be honest with yourself. 






Now go out there and make a difference!!!


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Overread said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.
> ...



Over, I don't really think that is what happens here...in order words I don't see it like a gang-bang. I see many more one- on one conflicts that flare, but not mobbing. I also do not think that anyone wants anyone to go and I dont think the intent, generally, is anything more than one saying to another, what have you done than to come here for free advice.

Now I know that many forums are here for interaction and free advice, but that does not negate the self-propelled work that people must do to determine if the plug is in the socket before they start to cry for help that it doesn't work.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Don't twist it around, but YES, if you are not prepared to put in the time and effort and want to just use Cliff Notes, then sorry for ya. If you think there are details or protocols that can be skipped or missed in Photography, then I'm really intested in a few examples from you.
> ...



With who and when?


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## fotomumma09 (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:
			
		

> MWAC's???








Seriously hilarious! Had to share to lighten the mood


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Point is, there are times in this world when a little bit of good ole fashion shame has it's place.  Folks seem to have forgot that and you can see how the tone of society has changed.  People make mistakes, that is a given, but there are some people in this world that abuse the privledge.  Ignoring some things does not make things better it just promotes the same kind of behavior in others.
> ...



There is no Fad or Club. If you want to go and answer questions to suit, go and do that, no one is stopping you. Do it your way and 'rise above' so you feel better and more righteous than those you detest.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Ya know what's just as bad as those stupid questions being asked over and over?
> The number of time threads like this appear with people arguing about how other people respond to posts.
> 
> You know what? Same rule applies. If you don't like how people respond to posts, don't read them!
> ...



*
OH YEAH!!!!  *Well Let Me Tell You Something!!!:lmao:


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Ya know what's just as bad as those stupid questions being asked over and over?
> The number of time threads like this appear with people arguing about how other people respond to posts.
> 
> You know what? Same rule applies. If you don't like how people respond to posts, don't read them!
> ...



^^^^ good debate though.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

Not really.


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

fotomumma09 said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



GeorgieGirl....  I Rest My Case on MWAC's. :lmao:


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## HughGuessWho (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > gryphonslair99 said:
> ...


It's pointless to continue. Some just want to argue.
Have a nice evening.


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## Overread (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Now go out there and make a difference!!!



but its dark and scary outside!


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

Overread said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Now go out there and make a difference!!!
> ...



Well. Then be careful, take a flashlight, and make a difference!


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

fotomumma09 said:


> GeorgieGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^THIS!!!!


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



But flashlights don't help with zombies.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



*sigh* Ok then. Well, be careful, take a flashlight, a hammer, and make a difference!


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## Kerbouchard (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Well, the reality is that, often times, a beginner won't know what they need to ask, or what information they need to have.
> 
> And they get raked over the coals for it...



Working on reading the full thread now, but in response to this early comment, there is one simple answer to _every_ time a situation like this comes up.  Buy a book.

Let's say a complete beginner asks 'What could I have done differently to make this better?'  A fairly benign and common question.  It shows the person knows that there is room to improve and wants to learn.  On the surface, any un-helpful response is a slap in the face.  But then again, lets look at the answer.  

Usually, it will start with exposure, where one would suggest a different aperture or shutter speed, etc...but then it has to be explained how to balance it.  Then, it has to be explained how each of those settings work together and what parts of the image they influence.  Then we have to talk about ISO for when the scene has low light.  Then, once we finished that, we have to explain composition.  From there, we need to explain lighting.  Some time during all of that, we should probably talk about tripods, flash, hand-holding technique, etc.  You know, just basic stuff.  Once we finish with that, we will need to discuss post-processing, what programs to use, how to use them, and what works for what images.  Crap, we still haven't talked about focus...ok, we'll get to that later.  Then, if we are feeling really generous, we could go into color space, bit depth, the difference between processing for display on the web and processing for print.

Only one problem.  The thread is now 300 pages long and it contains the exact same info as any beginner photography book.

Edited to add:  after reading the entire thread, I see that I forgot that we still need to explain white balance, color temperatures, CRI, should probably go into more detail in lighting, need to definitely discuss posing, then we need to talk about shooting at different times of the day.  

Damn...On second thought, maybe they should just buy a book.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:
			
		

> All of those words and Steve5D's question STILL hasn't been answered. And it never will be. Because there isnt a logical answer. You pretend like you JUST HATE the drama, yet you love to roll in it.
> Its really quite simple. If you dont like the "noob posts", dont read em'.



My answer is if people don't want to put forth the effort to do a little research, and at least give us a few clear sentences of what they are trying to accomplish then they can use a little wake up call.  Yes I do enjoy a debate, but I bring all of my knowledge at the ready.


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## IByte (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Not really.



I think so, no low blows or personal attacks just a clean, same ol' debate.  A little detour from the poll, but at least people are having a few laughs.


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## Trever1t (May 24, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> really be here asking how to do it?
> 
> If you come here to ask how to do a job, shouldn't that tell you that, maybe, most probably, you should have turned it down?
> 
> Anyway, here's another little stupid poll :lmao:



Look Ollie, a fine mess you've gotten us into!


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## table1349 (May 24, 2012)

Says it all.


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## snowbear (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> I miss the photo guy.


He's in a much happier place, now.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Damn...On second thought, maybe they should just buy a book.



Again, I'll ask the question which so many people seem afraid to answer: What's to be gained by being rude and demeaning to someone?

If someone can type out a post taking the beginner to task, why is that better than just helping the person?


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

IByte said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GeorgieGirl (May 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Again, I'll ask the question which so many people seem afraid to answer: What's to be gained by being rude and demeaning to someone?
> 
> If someone can type out a post taking the beginner to task, why is that better than just helping the person?



Why don't you point out an illustration to support you rhetoric? Then perhaps a response can follow.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)




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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Why don't you point out an illustration to support you rhetoric? Then perhaps a response can follow.



Sure.

Here's the thread: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/283809-new-freelancing-suggestions-please.html

Here's the text of the opening post in that thread:

_Hi. I'm new to all of this. I take a pretty good photo and am relatively good at photoshop. I have a 60d canon, tripod, wide angel, 50mm 1:8, 70-200 f4L, lens, remote, external flash. What other kit should I get?? 

I'll mainly be doing lifestyle , portrait photography of children and families. I have been asked to do product photography. - Of large items such as fish tank cupboards. What lighting would you use? _ 

Here are some of the wonderfully helpful responses the guy got:

_*By whose definition?  If it's a friend, relative, or family member, ignore it.  Have you actually received accolades for your work from someone who doesn't know you, but does have photographic knowledge? *_ 
_*
I know lots of people that take "a pretty good photo" does this mean that you are going freelance as a full time photographer based on taking a pretty good photo? *_ 

_*"Pretty good photo" coming from a family member or friend probably means it belongs in the trashcan if anyone is paying for that image.  "Relatively good" with Photoshop doesn't mean anything.

When another amateur comes along and makes a statement regardless of how vague, making a claim that they are ready to challenge the world of professional photography this forum usually turns into a overwhelming display of drama.  It really doesn't matter that 99% are amateurs, it becomes a land of personal attacks.
*_
*Like so many before you, putting the cart before the horse...usually ends in a bloody accident. Too many people think that because they can take a decent picture they should go pro. Stick around you can see for yourself.

...you come across like every other "just got a camera at best buy, and now I'm a professional photographer!" person that posts here.

If the Op was to post the 5 images considered the best in the collection then perhaps it will prove us all wrong, in which case I'm sure that most of us will apologize for our lack of respectful and kind comments.

I smell BS. Let see some pics from the professional.         

for the sake of consistency, i'll post my standard reply.  but this is the last time.  someone said i did a good job unclogging their toilet, i can now post here:  Plumbing Zone - Professional Plumbers Forum oh and how much do i charge?  ok thats it - i'm retired from these type of threads.  take care.  


*Now, if you read the OP, you'll see that the only questions he asked; the only advice he sought, had to do with what equipment he should get.  Not a single comment shown above comes anywhere _near _being a reasonable reply to the OP. 

And, bear in mind that's all from a single thread, and I didn't even go all the way through the thread. There were two pages or so left.

So, there's no rhetoric at all, just examples of childish responses which served no purpose. They were complete wastes of time.

No intelligent person would read those replies and conclude that they were appropriate and helpful...


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 24, 2012)

Jesus, man! Let it go!





Just let it go.


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## Steve5D (May 24, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Jesus, man! Let it go!
> 
> Just let it go.



She asked for examples which support what I've been saying. I provided them.

If you don't like that, I really, _really _don't care...


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## IByte (May 25, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> She asked for examples which support what I've been saying. I provided them.
> 
> If you don't like that, I really, really don't care...



Because the people who are asking the same questions are not doing there part.  Take for example myself, I came onto to this forum wondering what what was the difference between 50mm 1.8 or 50mm 1.4 if memory serves me correctly.  But I already knew it was  a pretty good prime for everyday use, I just needed to know what the hype about the 1.4mm. Boom got the help, got the lens and been here ever since.


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## GeorgieGirl (May 25, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus, man! Let it go!
> ...



I hope after a good night's sleep you have a more objective point of view cuz after your example you are acutally supporting the 'other' side. With an opening statement the OP made the responses, IMO, were not demeaning by definition; mainly they were blunt and brutally honest and at times sarcastic. People are sarcastic and blunt and brutally honest sometimes and that does not make them bad people or bullies. And I could close with the same comments that you did (quoted above), but I don't think it is in good taste to be so snotty.


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## vcustoms (May 25, 2012)

Idk I'm torn on this subject bc I know a few professional photographers including one who shoots for puma that started by saying yea I can shoot that and went straight home to google how to do it... So idk... Just understand that you may be cursed out, sued, punched, or if it's a friend, loose that friend. 

Fstoppers posted an article recently about a wedding photographer being sued for crappy pics


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## GeorgieGirl (May 25, 2012)

*I want to work in videos, but I want to be my own star in the video,*
*because I want to be a pop singer, a rock singer, and write my own songs.*
*And then I'm going to try an actress, 'cause people tell me I'm a natural.*
*Then I'm going to write and direct my own stories, produce the movies...*


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## HughGuessWho (May 25, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> IByte said:
> 
> 
> > HughGuessWho said:
> ...


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## IByte (May 25, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:
			
		

> [*]
> I want to work in videos, but I want to be my own star in the video,
> [*]because I want to be a pop singer, a rock singer, and write my own songs.
> [*]And then I'm going to try an actress, 'cause people tell me I'm a natural.
> [*]Then I'm going to write and direct my own stories, produce the movies...



"Coming to America"  very nice GG, now who wants coffee on this fine morning?


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## Steve5D (May 25, 2012)

IByte said:


> ]I came onto to this forum wondering what what was the difference between 50mm 1.8 or 50mm 1.4 if memory serves me correctly.



According to some, such a rudimentary question has no place here ...


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## Steve5D (May 25, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> I hope after a good night's sleep you have a more objective point of view cuz after your example you are acutally supporting the 'other' side. With an opening statement the OP made the responses, IMO, were not demeaning by definition; mainly they were blunt and brutally honest and at times sarcastic. People are sarcastic and blunt and brutally honest sometimes and that does not make them bad people or bullies. And I could close with the same comments that you did (quoted above), but I don't think it is in good taste to be so snotty.



How are any of the responses I quoted appropriate?

My point is a simple one, so it's rather fascinating that it's lost on you. The point, of course, is that there's nothing to be gained by being rude and nasty (which is what you seem to need to be), and nothing to be lost by being helpful.

And, I gotta' be honest here, your view of what's not in good taste or snotty is clearly a bit off kilter, so I won't get to shaken up if you think one of my comments fits that description...


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## Steve5D (May 25, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> Looks like a little mis-editing on your part. That isnt MY quote. I never said such a thing. That was IByte.



Apologies...


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## KmH (May 25, 2012)

On that note.......But you all stayed civil


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## tirediron (May 25, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> My point is a simple one, so it's rather fascinating that it's lost on you. The point, of course, is that there's nothing to be gained by being rude and nasty...


 Glass houses... stones...


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