# Lost out on a job because of price...would you have accepted this?



## Parker219

First, a little backstory.  I don't think I should give out the company name, but this company is a "digital marketing specialist" company. Meaning a business, which could be a restaurant, salon, sports bar, or just about anything will use this companies services to help them with their digital marketing.

The company approaches businesses, and says "If you use us, we will send out a professional photographer to get photos, then post the photos on your facebook and twitter page for you while ALSO creating a basic website with photos. If they already have a website, then they just add in the photos."

They charge them X amount, I am not even sure how much.

Then they contact a local photographer and they take the photos. When the photos are turned in, they become the property of the company. The photographer CAN use them in their own portfolio, however the client can use the photos for anything they want without giving credit to the photographer.

I have done work with this company before, because I wanted to build my portfolio, but after I did about 20 shoots, I told them I was tied up with other projects and had to stop doing work for them.

Then out of the blue I get this email last week...

"Good afternoon!

I just wanted to reach out and inquiry if you any of you would be interested in a photoshoot with a client that owns 2 salons. One has been opened and operating for 8 years and one in a brand new location they are opening up in a month.

For the photoshoot at the first location would be 6-8 exterior photos, 12-14 interior photos, and 15-20 procedure photos. They clients will have a couple of models and they would like you to photograph them while they have having different procedures done to them.

At the second location, they just need 6-8 exterior, and 12-14 interior photos.

If you would be interested and are available please reply to this email.


Thank you!

Dan

Digital Marketing Specialist




So I replied...


*Hi Dan,
Thank you for reaching out regarding the photo shoots. I looked up the location of the Salons 2 locations and looked around their facebook page, ect. I definitely would consider doing the photo shoots.


When do they need the final photos by?

Also how much would the pay be for the Salon photo shoot, considering the 2 locations?


*
They replied back...


Even though it would be 2 locations, we consider this one photo shoot, which would pay $65. It shouldn't take more than an hour.

The final photos would be due by 9/30.




Then I replied back...




*Hi Dan,

Thank You for your response. 

It would be a 1 hour drive to the first location for me, 2 hours of shooting time there, 30 minutes to drive to the other location,1 hour of shooting there, then about an 1 and 30 minutes for me to drive home. Then 4 hours of editing at least. So 10 hours total. I can do it for 10 hours times $65 an hour, so $650.

However no way I could do it for $65 total.

If ____ agrees to the $650, then let me know and I will do the photo shoot next week, most likely on Tuesday.

If they cant, I understand, just let me know either way.*

*Thank You*

2 hours later they replied...


Never mind, we found another photographer who accepted the assignment.






So my questions are, is there anything that you would have done different than I did? Was my price too high for the amount of work?  Would you have accepted the assignment?


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## jaomul

If that is your hourly price, and that was the amount of hours you reckon it would take then what you said was perfect. While I may do a job a little cheaper on occasion, I wouldn't for 10% of my normal rate. This question imo can be answered by any person in any trade, not just pro photographers


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## timor

65 bucks seems like he made a joke. And there is a "rule", one gets what he pays for. If he got a guy for that price, he got someone, who doesn't respect himself and that is not a professional person.


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## Designer

Big advantage; the photog could just send them directly from his phone.  

Yes, I abbreviated "photographer" on purpose.


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## timor

Oh, we go in that direction... This Fall is getting more and more "interesting". Overall. Where I am.


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## Braineack

Call the Salon, tell them when they are dissatisfied with their sub-par images because their marketing company is too cheap to hire talent, that they know where they can reach you.

You should also send the salon the email showing how "simple" of a job the company expected (2) locations, with models none-the-less, was to be and what they used the _thousands of dollars_ the salon probably paid for this on -- absolutely nothing.

I guess this company was too lazy to actually show up with their own iphones that day, or maybe the $65 paycheck actually didn't pay for gas after taxes.


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## KmH

So how has it worked out so far for you, as far as getting jobs based on your portfolio, after letting that digital marketing company take full and complete business advantage of you as you built your portfolio?


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## Parker219

KmH said:


> So how has it worked out so far for you, as far as getting jobs based on your portfolio, after letting that digital marketing company take full and complete business advantage of you as you built your portfolio?




It worked out great!  I now get jobs like this from a company that hired me because of the my portfolio I built from my first 20 shoots from the rip-off company....




Date Sent 8/7/15
Deadline *8/12/15, 7PM Pacific*
Rate *$475.00*
Exteriors Needed *15-20 exterior photos*, prefer nothing too wide, mostly of the of the building(s) itself. Feel free to include ancillary photos of the overall property, access points, amenities (if any), signage (if any), loading docks (if any), or any interesting features that can help in marketing this commercial property.
Interiors Needed N/A
Photography Notes All properties should be shot in good weather, when the front (or most photogenic side) is in full sunlight. If weather is not cooperating in the timeframe given, please contact us before proceeding with photography.
Property Name *Lake Parker Plaza*
Property Address *333 North Lake Parker Avenue*
City Lakeland
State FL
Zip 33801
Broker / LSA Company Baron Realty
Property ID 193037759
Event ID B-164
REDC ID UD175
Seller Loan Number LakeParker
Property Type Industrial
Net Rentable Area (SF) 123652
Property Description *Two Industrial Buildings Totaling 123,652 SF *






$475 for 15-20 exterior photos is okay by me!


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## Parker219

I will definitely keep an eye out their Facebook page and see what kind of quality they got for $65.


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## Vtec44

Only you can make that business decision to either lower your price or let jobs like this go.


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## 480sparky

You didn't lose the job as it wasn't yours to begin with. You can't lose what you don't have.

The only thing you lost was a bit of time with these bottom-feeding low-ballers. That's just part of any business.


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## Derrel

Parker219 said:
			
		

> *Then 4 hours of editing at least>>SNIP>>*
> 
> *Was my price too high for the amount of work?*



I think the "amount of work" was grossly overestimated by you. Four hours of editing on a 20-shot real estate gig? How are you shooting? I mean, how could you possibly spend four hours on this? These are not photos intended for Architectural Digest, and at the pay rate, there is no doubt that the client is expecting just basic-level work. Your bid on the job is simply inappropriately inflated. The client is seeking quick, efficient, low-level, functional photos, which means images shot right, so that they can be processed FAST. This is not the kind of job where you want to come back with 250 images, then need to cull and make selects, etc...this is shoot the property, shoot so that there is MINIMAL processing and correcting needed, and then deliver the images.

I think you did over-bid this, by elevating the job to something that it is NOT. The client is looking for fast, cheap, functional images. Not highly-refined, perfectly corrected, 100% distortion-free, 5-shot vertical stitched panos, retouched, color-corrected and cloned, perfected images. The client is looking for $65 photos. If you want to do that, then treat it the way he expects. Shot right, in-camera, and sent with the most bare-bones 'editing', like 45 to 120 seconds per image in Lightroom. This is simply NOT, in any way, shape, or form, a client looking for *a 10-hour job's bill* in exchange for what he wants.


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## Parker219

Derrel said:


> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Then 4 hours of editing at least>>SNIP>>*
> 
> *Was my price too high for the amount of work?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "amount of work" was grossly overestimated by you. Four hours of editing on a 20-shot real estate gig? How are you shooting? I mean, how could you possibly spend four hours on this? These are not photos intended for Architectural Digest, and at the pay rate, there is no doubt that the client is expecting just basic-level work. Your bid on the job is simply inappropriately inflated. The client is seeking quick, efficient, low-level, functional photos, which means images shot right, so that they can be processed FAST. This is not the kind of job where you want to come back with 250 images, then need to cull and make selects, etc...this is shoot the property, shoot so that there is MINIMAL processing and correcting needed, and then deliver the images.
> 
> I think you did over-bid this, by elevating the job to something that it is NOT. The client is looking for fast, cheap, functional images. Not highly-refined, perfectly corrected, 100% distortion-free, 5-shot vertical stitched panos, retouched, color-corrected and cloned, perfected images. The client is looking for $65 photos. If you want to do that, then treat it the way he expects. Shot right, in-camera, and sent with the most bare-bones 'editing', like 45 to 120 seconds per image in Lightroom. This is simply NOT, in any way, shape, or form, a client looking for *a 10-hour job's bill* in exchange for what he wants.
Click to expand...






The 10 hours was for my original post with the salons.

For the 20 real estate photos, of course it takes far less.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## Derrel

Regardless of the subject matter...the client is looking for a photographer who can show up, shoot photos, and deliver them affordably. He was literally TELLING you how much time he's allotting for the work to be shot, which is a significant clue or "tell" as to what his needs are.  Four HOURS of editing on a small job means the job and the bid are totally out of synch with one another. There are offers, and there are counter-offers, but there needs to be an understanding at the most basic level as to what the client wants, and what is expected.

Your communication with the client indicated a basic misunderstanding of what the job actually 'was'. You quoted caterer's prices for a fast-food-place hamburger lunch. You quoted for a job that you made up in your own mind...a job that really did not exist. As 480sparky said, you did not lose this job...you never had any job to begin with, and the quote you offered was, again, for something you imagined in your own mind. I am pretty sure you know what I mean; the client was looking for one thing, but you came back with a vastly more-involved idea of the actual job, so your bid was rejected.


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## Parker219

^ So you would do that job for $65 total?


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## 480sparky

Parker219 said:


> ^ So you would do that job for $65 total?



I'm just a dumb electrician, but if I'm offered $65 for ANY electrical work (no matter how minor), my van keys will stay right on the kitchen counter.  I suspect if I actuated shutters for a living and accepted commission work, the keys would still be on the kitchen counter.


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## sm4him

It doesn't MATTER if he would do the job for $65 total. 
It only matters whether YOU would do the job for $65.

You're second-guessing yourself here, Parker.
I suspect you KNEW they would reject your offer to do this shoot for $650, 10x what they'd quoted. I suspect that what you were hoping to do was to simply get them to see that they were asking for a lot more than they seemed to think.
It didn't work, but you tried.

The thing is, there is ALWAYS someone out there willing to do jobs like that--for $100, for $65, for $50...heck, they'll do it free, for the "exposure."  

Who cares? It just doesn't MATTER whether someone else will do that job for the price offered.  If you'd taken that job for $65, you'd be kicking yourself for it.  So just be thankful that you had better sense than that, and move on.

Now, the secondary issue is: Did you quote too high a price for them to even CONSIDER meeting you in the middle. Yeah, you did. And again, I suspect you knew that. That tells me that you understood that even if they agreed to a higher price, there was no way they were going to pay what you would require to do the job.

I think what you're asking is what SHOULD be a "fair price" for a job like that. But again, the answer is: It doesn't matter.
Just as YOU decided you weren't willing to take $65 to do that work, THEY had already decided they weren't willing to PAY more than that to have the work done. It's here that Derrel has a point--their objective for these photos and yours were not the same. You were prepared to give them champagne, but not for grape juice prices--nothing wrong with that. But they were only interested in grape juice, at grape juice prices--and there's nothing wrong with that either.

The job was not a match for you. Simple as that.


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## vintagesnaps

I don't think this client is looking for a photographer, I think he seems to just be looking for a person with a camera (who maybe knows how to turn it on and aim it in the general direction of something.). It's his/his company's problem if the photos he gets don't end up being good enough to satisfy the salon owners.

I imagine since you did a number of shoots for portfolio use (and enough that might have led the client to make assumptions about what you'd be willing to do?) the client might have thought he could get you to do this for little money. You can't bill just based on hours shooting and editing - you're getting paid for expertise, ability, time you spent learning and/or taking courses or attending workshops etc. and developing your skills, etc. etc. I think the skill level has to be at a point where the photographer can compete to get the going rate for photo shoots but it can take time to build up to that point.

If you're going to do work in photography get professional information. For example, ASMP has a 'paperwork' share although usually just 2-3 examples are available to nonmembers. Photographers share information on actual jobs they've done to help others learn. The ASMP Paperwork Share | American Society of Media Photographers


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## vfotog

there isn't any gig I would do for just $65. That's not even a total beginner rate. It's funny, we always tell people to figure out costs, what they are worth, their equipment and business expenses...  and then when they reject an insulting job offer, they get put down. A number of people are saying the OP over-quoted and that the client had lower expectations. Not necessarily. Depends on whose expectations you are talking about. The job offer was not offered by the end user. It's already been stated that no one knows what the end user was paying. They could be paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars. It's doubtful that they know that the middleman was only offering $65 for the photo services. The end user could have very high expectations for the images and no clue as to what professional services cost. Now the middleman probably does, but also knows the OP worked for free repeatedly, so they may think they are being generous for offering anything at all.


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## Designer

vfotog said:


> The end user could have very high expectations for the images and no clue as to what professional services cost.


Here is where such a deal has real potential to hurt professional photographers.  If the end user perceives the photos are not very good, but he is paying quite lot (at least in his mind) for the service package, he may assume that all photographers are not very good, and that they charge a lot.

Let's hope the client begins to do some research.


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## Vtec44

Designer said:


> Let's hope the client begins to do some research.



Or the good photographers need to differentiate themselves from the rest of the field, to show there is no doubt that the work is absolutely better to command the pricing.


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## petrochemist

I'm not a Pro, never yet been paid for a photograph - though a couple of my shots have been used commercially.
Even for me shooting at 2 locations half an hours drive apart for $65 could only make financial sense if I actually lived right on top of one of the locations...

But for their measly $65 they also want full rights to reuse as they like without even giving credit! It's now got to the point where it would have to be for friends/family or perhaps a favorite charity.


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## TreeofLifeStairs

I build staircases but I have a minimum price that I charge where anything less is not worth my time no matter how small the project is. People seem to understand and sometimes they choose to go with me and other times they don't. I notice it protects me from the customers that want a low price but have high expectations (the worst kind of customer imo). 

On a separate note, I'm sure this company is giving you a 1099. Out of $65, there's not much left after taxes on that.


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## astroNikon

Let's see

You used them in the past to build your portfolio
now you are past them getting real money for jobs.

and yet, you knew from the past what they were looking for and seem insulted from it.
move on already ...


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## imagemaker46

I only read the first couple of messages. You handled it in a very professional manner. These people are clueless, but they will always find someone to do the shoot. As a joke I may have taken the shoot and showed up with my iphone. Didn't mention having to own real gear.


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## A/Ox4

Derrel said:


> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Then 4 hours of editing at least>>SNIP>>*
> 
> *Was my price too high for the amount of work?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "amount of work" was grossly overestimated by you. Four hours of editing on a 20-shot real estate gig? How are you shooting? I mean, how could you possibly spend four hours on this? These are not photos intended for Architectural Digest, and at the pay rate, there is no doubt that the client is expecting just basic-level work. Your bid on the job is simply inappropriately inflated. The client is seeking quick, efficient, low-level, functional photos, which means images shot right, so that they can be processed FAST. This is not the kind of job where you want to come back with 250 images, then need to cull and make selects, etc...this is shoot the property, shoot so that there is MINIMAL processing and correcting needed, and then deliver the images.
> 
> I think you did over-bid this, by elevating the job to something that it is NOT. The client is looking for fast, cheap, functional images. Not highly-refined, perfectly corrected, 100% distortion-free, 5-shot vertical stitched panos, retouched, color-corrected and cloned, perfected images. The client is looking for $65 photos. If you want to do that, then treat it the way he expects. Shot right, in-camera, and sent with the most bare-bones 'editing', like 45 to 120 seconds per image in Lightroom. This is simply NOT, in any way, shape, or form, a client looking for *a 10-hour job's bill* in exchange for what he wants.
Click to expand...


I disagree. While 10 hours of post process work may be excessive, I would not lower my quality of work to meet a clients needs. If I was a professional architectural and/or commercial photographer, and was asked to do this, I would give a professional rate for professional work.

I agree, this client clearly wants photos like he saw his Uncle Bob take at the last family reunion, and for that he is willing to pay $65. However, I am not going to produce a produce of that subpar quality just to meet a budget. This client should try a photography school or Craigslist. I think my mom's iPhone takes pretty decent pictures if he would be okay with that.


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