# Multiple Pictures



## The_Traveler (Oct 22, 2016)

I really don't understand when a photographer posts, in the same thread, several pictures of the same subject, almost duplicates.
I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

IMO, there will only be one 'best' picture and thus all the others are just bringing the average down.


----------



## SquarePeg (Oct 22, 2016)

There are usually varied opinions on which is the "best" so I don't think it's quite as simple as you are suggesting.  If someone is looking for critique and wanting to improve,  posting a few crops of the same scene or various poses of the same subject, can be helpful in getting feedback on what worked and what didn't.


----------



## Fred von den Berg (Oct 23, 2016)

Only show the best you are capable of. Deciding what perspective, which crop, whether colour or B&W or sepia, etc., is up to you. Taking lots and lots of photos of the same subject in order to cover all the angles is perfectly reasonable, however, deciding what to show is the tricky bit. If you leave this decision to others, you can never grow.

Multiple shots are lazy. If the subject requires it, two or three photos are acceptable - but they must all show something new.


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

Fred von den Berg said:


> Only show the best you are capable of. Deciding what perspective, which crop, whether colour or B&W or sepia, etc., is up to you. Taking lots and lots of photos of the same subject in order to cover all the angles is perfectly reasonable, however, deciding what to show is the tricky bit. If you leave this decision to others, you can never grow.
> 
> Multiple shots are lazy. If the subject requires it, two or three photos are acceptable - but they must all show something new.




this assumes the person posting the pictures KNOWS which is the best. 
its fine to feel that the decision shouldnt be left to others, but how do you learn if not by asking others?
a lot of people are posting here because they want to learn, and posting multiple shots, even ones that are only
slightly different, can help them get feedback on those differences, and hopefully they learn from it to one day
make the decision on their own.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

The way to learn is to make a decision, stretch one's thinking, develop one's own skills and not always first depend on what someone else likes.



pixmedic said:


> a lot of people are posting here because they want to learn, and posting multiple shots, even ones that are only slightly different, can help them get feedback on those differences, and hopefully they learn from it to one day
> make the decision on their own.



Really.
My impression is that people often don't ask which one do you like and why.
They throw up a bunch and see what happens.
Who are they getting good opinions from?
If, as you say, lots of people are posting here to learn something, then their opinions are only as valid as the poster.

Sort of shared ignorance.


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> The way to learn is to make a decision, stretch one's thinking, develop one's own skills and not always first depend on what someone else likes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




most of those people dont know how to properly look for critique.
they post pictures looking for help, but not really knowing how to get it.
half the time they then get flamed by people telling them they need to learn how to do some particular thing better, but dont
explain to them HOW they can learn.
too many members expect people to learn _*before*_ posting here and forget that this forum is part of a learning process.
people learn differently. dont assume that there is some "super learning formula" that will apply to everyone. 


"best" is subjective.
"good opinion" is subjective.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

pixmedic said:


> half the time they then get flamed by people telling them they need to learn how to do some particular thing better, but dont
> explain to them HOW they can learn.
> too many members expect people to learn _*before*_ posting here and forget that this forum is part of a learning process.
> people learn differently. dont assume that there is some "super learning formula" that will apply to everyone.



I assume when you say 'half', you are pulling a big number out of the air in an attempt to add weight to your point.
My experience is that people are asked to hone their submission down to 1 or 2  pictures, maybe 3.

That is the beginning of learning, being told how to post to get the best experience.
Getting half-@ssed scattered comments isn't a worthwhile learning experience.

In fact, there is a _how-to-get-best-critique_  post floating around.  
It would be nice if new members and new posters would automatically get this how-to and improve the forum.​
But actually, that isn't what I was referring to.
I wonder why experienced posters do the same thing post 3,4 or 5 of almost the same shot?


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > half the time they then get flamed by people telling them they need to learn how to do some particular thing better, but dont
> ...



Your projecting what you presume to be the best way to do something onto everyone else, and how they should post.

Maybe you see 4 or 5 of the same shot,  but often times there are subtle differences that can change the way the picture is viewed, and the OP is looking for input on those things. 
Just because you might be unable to divine those subtle differences,  doesn't make them the same picture.

Perhaps you should consider starting a tutorial page for new members on how to properly take pictures, post them, and ask for critique. 
If you put something cohesive together, I'll make it a sticky and you can simply link it to new members that you feel need help with their posting.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C)

How to deal with critique


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

It is interesting that, of all people, you should take the lead on criticizing my thread and telling me about subtlety and critique.


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C)
> 
> How to deal with critique


I'm on my phone so I can't check, but if they aren't already stickied I'll do that when I get home and make sure they are in to appropriate area.  Maybe I can get them moved to the main forum page.


----------



## alexis.alvarez (Oct 23, 2016)

Maybe people are just unsure and want to see what others think, especially if they haven't studied formally. This is why a good critique is so important. When I was studying photography, we as students all had to critique each other's work; the teacher would either agree with us or not, and would explain why. But it was a critical exercise in learning and refining our technical skills, as well as  developing our vision.


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> It is interesting that, of all people, you should take the lead on criticizing my thread and telling me about subtlety and critique.


It is interesting that of all people, you should take the lead criticizing people for posting the same images over and over.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

False equivalence - Wikipedia


----------



## Peeb (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> The way to learn is to make a decision, stretch one's thinking, develop one's own skills and not ALWAYS first depend on what someone else likes. ( emphasis added )


 What is the factual basis for your conclusion that  people who post multiple versions of the same image in a thread ALWAYS do so,  rather than occasionally finding the best on their own?  

Seems the Internet has you a bit out of sorts.   Here's hoping things get happier for you.


----------



## Overread (Oct 23, 2016)

I've had interesting discussions even just with one single photo shot a little wide and opening up the floor to people to crop to different angles. Sometimes the crop is very "easy" to see once you've even a little experience (good old rule of thirds); but other times composing can be quite  tricky.

I certainly found this with equine photography as compared to wildlife. In wildlife one might often have a single subject or a group or a single focus point of action - thus once you've a little experience the photos almost compose themselves; you just have to get it right in camera or shoot wide and crop a little in editing. 

In equine suddenly I found there were TWO often differently focused subjects in every shot (rider + mount) plus there was a much busier background; then there were other elements (eg a jump) in the plane as the subjects. Foreground might also have a few things too. Suddenly  there was a lot more to balance and the variations that were possible became a lot greater.



That's just one example from myself. Many others might also show photos with a similar thoughts in that they can't discern the best composition yet. 
Others might have subtle differences again which tell slightly different stories or which capture little bits of a moment. It might be that they've captured action either side of the "key" moment or that they've captured a range of potential key moments. 
Going back to horses (as they are easy for this) and going over a jump you might get a shot before take off; at take off; in the air; coming down to land; landed and moving on. Each of those situations "can" be a good shot; but with differences in the situation there might only be one or two that are ideal in any  given situation that the photographer is in. Thus it takes a little time to learn what looks good. 



And then you've some who feel that its not just a single photo that matters. That they want to show a sequence of events one after the other in that small moment that they captured. Thus the individual photo isn't, to them, as important as the set when shown together.



In the end we come here to learn; expecting people to have already learned how to learn before they come here to learn is rather like expecting students to turn up at school pre-taught in what they are going to learn. Sure we can debate and argue to the end of time about how one should conduct themselves or how we'd "like" potential members and learners to act - but in the end this is a forum. It's NOT a university nor a school nor a college. There's no pre-posting exam or criteria; there's no strict standard of content (beyond prohibitive rules such as no porn; and general expectations of good social behaviour) etc...

Debating this point is almost pointless as its just the same old-guard talking about it and we generally get to the same conclusions each time. In my view it would be better to focus such efforts on helping others learn than to debate and nit-pick how they choose to learn.


----------



## pixmedic (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> False equivalence - Wikipedia



Straw man - Wikipedia


----------



## limr (Oct 23, 2016)

Overread said:


> Debating this point is almost pointless as its just the same old-guard talking about it and we generally get to the same conclusions each time. In my view it would be better to focus such efforts on helping others learn than to debate and nit-pick how they choose to learn.



I agree with the whole post, but especially and whole-heartedly with this last paragraph.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

Overread said:


> In my view it would be better to focus such efforts on helping others learn than to debate and nit-pick how they choose to learn.



Better, I don't know but not as much fun.
I have done as many critiques and probably posted as pictures as anyone here and I think that entitles me to have an opinion and express it as long as I don't attack people or use bad language.

This discussion was going along in an interesting and friendly way until Pixmedic decided that he would tell me the right way to think.
Ignore his posts and my answers to him and the discussion is still fine.


----------



## Fred von den Berg (Oct 23, 2016)

pixmedic said:


> Fred von den Berg said:
> 
> 
> > Only show the best you are capable of. Deciding what perspective, which crop, whether colour or B&W or sepia, etc., is up to you. Taking lots and lots of photos of the same subject in order to cover all the angles is perfectly reasonable, however, deciding what to show is the tricky bit. If you leave this decision to others, you can never grow.
> ...



It's safe to assume, I think, that people will know which of their own  shots they like most. Unless  they grew up in a cultural vacuum, they have been exposed to enough influences - television, advertising boards, magazines, Internet - to have a fair idea of the usual conventions and norms before holding their first camera in the hand. No formal education in the arts is necessary to know what you find appealing. People will either share your view or not; if they find they have something they could offer in the way of advice, they may offer their wisdom, which you can learn from or not as the case might be.

The most important thing is to make your own decisions about your own creations: to think for yourself and to be true to your own convictions. Sometimes when I have two or three similar shots of the same subject, it can be days, weeks or even months before I finally make the decision which one to run with. If there is still a degree of uncertainty in my mind, then I might show more than one together and ask for opinions, but only after I have made a bit of effort for myself. 

It is good that people on this forum want to help, but something that is often overlooked in teaching/learning relationships is that it's the learner's job to learn and not only the teacher's job to teach. 

Don't be lazy - make an effort!


----------



## table1349 (Oct 23, 2016)

Overread said:


> Debating this point is almost pointless as its just the same old-guard talking about it and we generally get to the same conclusions each time. In my view it would be better to focus such efforts on helping others learn than to debate and nit-pick how they choose to learn.


It's Sunday, what else is there to do?


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

Peeb said:


> What is the factual basis for your conclusion that  people who post multiple versions of the same image in a thread ALWAYS do so,  rather than occasionally finding the best on their own?



I didn't say that people did.
To quote myself, 



The_Traveler said:


> I really don't understand when a photographer posts, in the same thread, several pictures of the same subject, almost duplicates.
> I don't understand the reasoning behind that.
> IMO, there will only be one 'best' picture and thus all the others are just bringing the average down.



I wasn't aggressive, I didn't say that newbies shouldn't post a lot of pictures, I didn't say that people shouldn't ask for help to pick something out.  I simply didn't, and don't, understand why people would post multiple pictures of the same, say for example, flower, with not really much to tell them apart, and not say something.

My local friend does this routinely and his site is clogged with lots of pictures, in sets of two or three.  Of course he is an engineer and that might exlain something.

When someone posts three pictures and says something to the effect of,'which one do you think is best' then they are getting someone else's opinion and their own judgement isn't exercised. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Fred.



Fred von den Berg said:


> *The most important thing is to make your own decisions about your own creations: to think for yourself and to be true to your own convictions.* Sometimes when I have two or three similar shots of the same subject, it can be days, weeks or even months before I finally make the decision which one to run with. If there is still a degree of uncertainty in my mind, then I might show more than one together and ask for opinions, but only after I have made a bit of effort for myself.
> 
> *It is good that people on this forum want to help, but something that is often overlooked in teaching/learning relationships is that it's the learner's job to learn and not only the teacher's job to teach*.



Note that this is the '_photography discussion_' forum and that's what was going on.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

alexis.alvarez said:


> Maybe people are just unsure and want to see what others think, especially if they haven't studied formally. This is why a good critique is so important. *When I was studying photography, we as students all had to critique each other's work; the teacher would either agree with us or not, and would explain why. But it was a critical exercise in learning and refining our technical skills, as well as  developing our vision.*



Sorry to be so late getting back to this.
Let me point out that the teacher asked the students to make some decisions first, to exercise their skills, before he told you what he/she thought.

There is an actual psychologically validated reason to do that; decisions are easily influenced, often subconsciously, by what the person hears before they make their own decison. This is known as 'priming' and is discussed at length in Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow  written by a psychologist who won the Nobel Prize in Economics for his work in decision making.

Think first, decide which image you like first, then figure out why, then ask for other opinions.


----------



## Overread (Oct 23, 2016)

Lew - Fred 
Whilst you might have valid points for an institution style of learning its impossible to "police" or enforce this kind of thinking in a forum where perceptions of the site are very individual. For some this is purely a casual place to chat and share photos and stuff they like; for others its a serious place of learning and for some its somewhere entertaining between bouts of work in the office. 

My point that its pointless is because all we can really do is air our views on what we'd "like" to see from users but in the end it makes no real change to what users can or will do. There's a handful of threads (linked here) that I've written and do refer people too to try and get them to help themselves and get better feedback - but even as sticky people won't "read" them as default. 
Even if we had a "stickies only" subcategory at the top of the page people would still miss them. 

Beyond such threads and encouragment there's little else we can do without making the site a closed affair to users until they pass some kind of initiation or test or formal document (and lets face it we've all installed enough bits of software over the years to know that we all just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree"). So in the end it becomes a circular series of arguments which are more so hinged on our own perception of how we treat the forums rather than upon anything else.



It's a nice fun debate that's safe to debate because its easy to just air our own views. But its a dance we've danced before with most of the same players. There's little new to really debate or present - there's little to really push this into new waters or to take away great revelations.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 23, 2016)

Civil discussion hurts no one; it enlarges one's mind if ideas are challenged.
In a discussion like this, people can see what other people think - and why they think that.

And no one has to read it.
And there is a Photographic Discussions Forum.

Using up a few electrons and some idle time - what does it hurt?


----------



## rlemert (Oct 23, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> When someone posts three pictures and says something to the effect of,'which one do you think is best' then they are getting someone else's opinion and their own judgement isn't exercised.



How do you know that they haven't exercised their own judgement? Maybe they've already decided which image they like - and why, but they would like to see if their viewpoint is shared by others. Furthermore, they may be attempting to avoid introducing their own bias into the feedback they're asking for.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 24, 2016)

rlemert said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > When someone posts three pictures and says something to the effect of,'which one do you think is best' then they are getting someone else's opinion and their own judgement isn't exercised.
> ...



Very good point - and that's probably the way it should be. 
Making up one's own mind, having the reasons but being open to other pooints of view.


----------



## dennybeall (Oct 24, 2016)

Photography Forums work best when photography is discussed.


----------



## Frank F. (Oct 24, 2016)

just a general remark: If I post a series to a forum, pictures I like, I am often very perplex which of the pics the crowd will like and which not. Mostly fully unpredictable for me. But I learn every day.


----------

