# A little honesty



## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 2, 2007)

Let me preface this by saying that I am a nice person and I think it is great that there are so many people interested in photography.

However..

I've been asked several times why I've been a member for so long with so few posts and here is my response...I feel that this board has gotten a bit out of focus.  This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera"  on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals.  Just because you have money to buy a nice camera does not make you a professional nor give you the right to criticize others on something you know little about.

I'm not saying that there aren't some AMAZING photographers on here, because there definetly are.  I don't post that much because most of the time I just want to say "maybe you should take a photography class and learn at least the basics" but I don't because I have found that when I do, people's feelings get hurt.

I wish the business district would be just that... people in business.  It's very hard to run your own business and I have paid my dues and busted my butt to build my business and learn what I know.  There are galleries on here if you are just posting a snapshot.

 If that makes me a wtich then so be it.  It is time for some honesty around here.


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## Big Mike (Nov 2, 2007)

It's a fine line.  The business district was made for professionals to post...even then, it's hard to know when & where to draw the line as to who/what is professional what isn't.

We have never had any restriction as to who can reply to those posts.  And just because some might have little knowledge, does not disqualify their opinions about photographs.

On one hand, it might be nice to have a place where working pros can converse back and forth...but on the other hand, non-pros have valid opinions as well.  

For the most part, this is a smaller forum with a large amount of beginners and hobbyist/enthusiasts...and fewer pros.  

If you think that we should have a separate section where only proven professionals can post, then I'd suggest you put forth that idea in the feedback section and we will take it under advisement.  If there is enough demand, it might become a reality.  But it might be one of those things that we are better off without...I don't know.

There are forum sites that are strictly for pros...some of which have an actual membership fee.  That is always an option for you.

Personally, several of the forums that I've seen...which are made up of primarily pros...are not nearly as friendly as this site.  Especially for those that are not as experienced.


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 2, 2007)

I completely agree with you but I'm not saying the whole forum should be pros only, just this section that says "business" district.  (as it does say PROFESSIONAL Portrait and Wedding)  If I were to suggest a pro's only section, what would you call it?  the REAL PROFESSIONAL section?

I think there needs to be some policing of this section.  By all means, everyone should be able to comment to posts but they should be posting their pictures is the amature galleries because that is what they are.  (and amature isnt a bad thing, we were all one at some point)  I learned by asking pros my questions and getting honest answers.  There are amatures claiming to be pros and giving out bad/wrong advice concerning the basics of photography.  I'd be more than willing to help people but how is an amature to know who truly knows what they are talking about and those operating under the "fake it until you make it" principal?

As for the paid forum, I am a part of quite a few of them.  The admission fee and review of the work to become a member weeds out the hobbyists.  On one hand it is nice to have pros conversing with pros but how are amatures ever going to learn this way?

I'm not trying to be ugly or mean, I wrote this in response to people asking me why I don't post often, so I was honest in my response.  I started my posting on this forum way back when I first started getting in to photography and I just think that this forum has the potential to be much more.  I left this forum years ago because there was no delineation between who I could trust and who I couldn't.  I went somewhere that had a true "Ask the pros" type section and I learned A LOT from them.  I wish this board had that and I think that was the original intention of the business district section.  

But who knows...:raisedbrow:


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## elsaspet (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm gonna waffle here.
It drives me crazy when I see posts that have nutty, and sometimes in my opinion, bad advice.
However,  who is a pro?  At DWF, you have to have what THEY consider to be a pro website, and have to have been in business for x amount of time to become a pro member there.  It's a pay site, which I am also a member of.  They have the type of money to enforce that kind of strict standard.
That's an awful lot of work to have the unpaid mod's here try to enforce.

I lose it in regards to this topic sometimes too.  It can be frustrating as hell.  If the advice smacks of nonsense, call it nonsense, or ignore it.  But every once in a while you are going to get a great nugget of advice from someone who just loves looking at photos.

Hugs to you, and I hope you stick around.


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## dpolston (Nov 2, 2007)

I'll throw in here... what qualifies a pro to be a pro? 

*Professional*

*Adjective*

*1*. Engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood; "the professional man or woman possesses distinctive qualifications"; "began her professional career after the Olympics"; "professional theater"; "professional football"; "a professional cook"; "professional actors and athletes".
*2*. Of or relating to or suitable as a profession; "professional organizations"; "a professional field such as law".
*3*. Characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"; "a thoroughly professional performance".
*4*. Of or relating to a profession; "we need professional advice"; "professional training"; "professional equipment for his new office".
*5*. Engaged in by members of a profession; "professional occupations include medicine and the law and teaching".

*Noun*

*1*. A person engaged in one of the learned professions.
*2*. An athlete who plays for pay.
*3*. An authority qualified to teach apprentices.

Now, I do not make the majority of my annual salary as a photographer (as I am in another profession as a professional construction contractor) but I do generate some income with my photography services. If it's strictly based with a monetary value then I'm in, if it's "the majority" of my income, I'm out.

Fine line.

BTW... I am not disagreeing with your post. Sometimes you just want to shoot the breeze with like minded businesspersons.


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## Sweetsomedays (Nov 2, 2007)

This is going to sound snipity but it's not intended that way.
Should people who know they arent ready but desire to one day be a pro photographer stay out and not ask questions from experienced individuals? 
I can see where your coming from. But it's nice to get input from those that have been there done that. Maybe there should be another closed forum for those doing photography strictly for profit to discuss.


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## SpeedTrap (Nov 2, 2007)

I am in the boat of being a starting pro photographer.
I have a business licenses I have a registered company, and I do not shoot for free unless it is for me. 
Do I make most on my money in Photography, No.
I do have another profession that I make most of my money from.  But this year I made more from my photography than last year and next year I hope to make than this year.


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## Heck (Nov 2, 2007)

This forum is the only place where I feel like I can rub elbows with &#8220;real professionals&#8221; sometimes, But the definition of pro may be very different to most. Its the lack of elitist attitudes here that keep me asking question in order to learn and enjoy photography and im thankful for the info I get from the pros and non pros here.


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## Sweetsomedays (Nov 2, 2007)

A big ol' ditto to everything Heck said.


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## skieur (Nov 2, 2007)

Allsmiles has a good point. No beginner should be posting portraits of her children in "Professional Portraits and Wedding Photography", for example.  I think though that some of the pros here are at fault too. 

Pros, if you really want a "professional forum" then take the gloves off, so-to-speak and critique photos as professional shots...in detail with higher expectations for quality. Jump in and don't let comments pass that are totally "ignorant" of basic photography. Suggest that some posters should be moving their work to another gallery. Moderators should take the same approach in the "professional areas". Get united on higher expectations related to postings in professional areas.

skieur


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## ~Stella~ (Nov 2, 2007)

> This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera" on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals.


Don't forget that nonprofessionals are the ones paying you for your services and as such, they might actually have some valuable input about certain issues from the consumer's point of view. As long as the advice isn't assinine (in which case, disregard it by all means), I don't see why it would hurt for nonprofessionals to reply. Further, many nonprofessionals _are _professionals in other fields and have extensive experience in diverse areas that may come into play here - business or marketing experience or legal experience just for starters. Anyone would be a fool to turn away sound business advice away just because the poster was a beginning photographer.

Sincerely, 
Mom with a Camera.


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## skieur (Nov 2, 2007)

~Stella~ said:


> Don't forget that nonprofessionals are the ones paying you for your services
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mom with a Camera.


 
It is too easy to generalize incorrectly.  Not all pros are dealing with the general public as wedding or portrait photographers etc.  Some indeed are working for media professionals or professional organizations in the business or public sector.

I think Allsmiles is probably reflecting the frustration that pros sometimes feel when encountering what can only be characterized as total photographic ignorance combined with arrogance from a beginner who has only had a camera for a few years.  

Pros have paid their dues.  They have studied the field, learned the rules, standards and styles and some here have 40, 50, and 60 years of experience.  They don't mind sharing their expertise but are not keen on being abused in the process.  They also would like to hear useful comments from other professionals or for that matter from talented amateurs who are truly dedicated to learning about photography.

To quote from another photo web site that I am on: "We take care of our pros, because their expertise is an essential part of any photographic website.  We do whatever we can to keep them here."

skieur


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 2, 2007)

Here's the thing...I'm not a Politically Correct person because I just think it is a big waste of time and we should just say what we mean.  

I have NO problem with people that are wanting to learn, asking questions.  Like I have stated before, that is how I learned, asking questions, trial and error, studying under experienced photographers.  MY problem lies with people who continually post pictures in the PROFESSIONAL section and says "what do you think?"  Because I want to sceam... I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR KID LOOKS LIKE!  If it is someone truly wanting to learn they will ask for specific feedback on whatever they are trying to get better at, not just posting some random picture and putting "please cc."

I come to this board to help people and to gain insight from other photographers.  I have been paying dues for a very long time and am tired on my time being wasted on a proud mom calling herself a photographer.  Not only is it a waste of my time but also an insult to those of us that have truly honed our craft and studied it.

Where you draw the line as a photographer, I don't know.  However, I do think that those who are professionals can tell you the difference between what we do and a snapshot. But the gloves are off and from now on, if its a snapshop that anybody could have taken with any camera, I'm gonna say so.  Thats what you get for posting in the pro section IMO.  My husband is always saying, "say what you mean.  Tell them that it looks like I could have taken that picture" and from now on I will.  (Now in other galleries is a COMPLETELY different story.  Or if someone says "how is my DOF here" I will help them any way I can, get it?)

Thanks.

P.S. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in my frustration and that others feel the same.


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## ~Stella~ (Nov 2, 2007)

skieur said:


> It is too easy to generalize incorrectly. Not all pros are dealing with the general public as wedding or portrait photographers etc. Some indeed are working for media professionals or professional organizations in the business or public sector.



This is true, but my comment could include people other than the general public, right? Basically anyone that needs nice images that isn't qualified to do it themselves, whether that be soccer mommies or business owners - they are all nonprofessionals as far as photography goes. 



skieur said:


> I think Allsmiles is probably reflecting the frustration that pros sometimes feel when encountering what can only be characterized as total photographic ignorance combined with arrogance from a beginner who has only had a camera for a few years.


 I understand that, but not everyone who has just started out has nothing of value to contribute. And not all pros contribute fantastic advice every time. And since anyone can claim to be anything on a forum like this, is it not better to just take the comments on their own merit?

I've given legal advice a few time on this portion of the board, IIRC. I was qualified to answer the question posed. I would never respond to a question that I had no business answering, which I assume is the real problem here, but since, again, we can claim to be anything, I would suggest judging each post on its own merit and using the ignore function if the poster merits.



> MY problem lies with people who continually post pictures in the PROFESSIONAL section and says "what do you think?" Because I want to sceam... I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR KID LOOKS LIKE! If it is someone truly wanting to learn they will ask for specific feedback on whatever they are trying to get better at, not just posting some random picture and putting "please cc."


That makes me nutty too - and I'm no pro, obviously. I understand. My comments above spoke to advice threads rather than photo/gallery type posts and I should have specified as such.


ETA - I'm having a really bad day.  If this came off sounding crabby, it honestly wasn't meant to.


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## Heck (Nov 2, 2007)




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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 2, 2007)

~Stella~ said:


> ETA - I'm having a really bad day.  If this came off sounding crabby, it honestly wasn't meant to.



Hey, no worries.  It's not like an end of the world kind of thing, just frustration.  I'm sorry about the bad day though... if it makes you feel any better I just went to get crab legs (my FAVE!) and they were cold and way too expensive! lol  :hugs:


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## skieur (Nov 2, 2007)

~Stella~ said:


> This is true, but my comment could include people other than the general public, right? Basically anyone that needs nice images that isn't qualified to do it themselves, whether that be soccer mommies or business owners - they are all nonprofessionals as far as photography goes.
> 
> Sounds logical, but it is a little more complex than that in reality.  Pro photographers within organizations, business, or the public sector are often working for administrators with pro photography experience or for editors or art directors with considerable experience in composition, colour, lighting and technical excellence from the evaluation standpoint.
> They are as professional as the photographer despite not being able to handle a camera.
> ...


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## skieur (Nov 2, 2007)

~Stella~ said:


> ETA - I'm having a really bad day. If this came off sounding crabby, it honestly wasn't meant to.


 
Sounds reasonable and not crabby to me. 

skieur


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## skieur (Nov 2, 2007)

~Stella~ said:


> And since anyone can claim to be anything on a forum like this, is it not better to just take the comments on their own merit?


 
It is not quite that simple.  Anyone can claim to be anything but your posts and critiques display your knowledge of photography or lack thereof.
Read samples of anyone's posts and you can get a good sense of their experience and expertise in the area.

skieur


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## dpolston (Nov 2, 2007)

Heck said:


>



(I hear ya!)


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## kundalini (Nov 2, 2007)

If I could interject an opinion.  I don't think I am unique to how this thing works.  You post a photo and wait for comments.  While you're waiting for feedback, it's too easy to just troll along and browse the titles for something interesting.  The majority of the time, any new post I clicked on has little to do with the particular forum it was actually posted in.  Sometimes it's the title, sometimes it's the OP, sometimes it the last responder that gets my attention.

I think for me, I am drawn to a few certain posters and responders.  I have developed an affinity towards certain avatars either because of their advice, critique, professionalism or sense of humor and those attributes are something I appreciate.  

I can appreciate what Allsmiles is implying.  However, I would like to think that anyone that has an opinion on this forum is valid.  I certainly disagree with several, am dumbfounded by others and get pissed off by a small percentage.  But the great leveling field is that ALL responders to posts have three things that cannot be denied....eyes, grey matter and an opinion.

Those three characteristics are what drew me to TPF and they are what keep me coming back.  If there was a definite professional forum within TPF, I would certainly respect it's membership.  But until that time, I wish to have my voice heard and I have absolutely no problem if someone calls bull**** on any comment I have ever made on any post whatsoever.


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## wildmaven (Nov 2, 2007)

After reading this, it makes me fearful to even post in the professional gallery anymore. I have been a wildlife and nature photographer for over a decade. My work sells. I take commissions. Now, I am starting portrait photography. All my learning has been through books, trial and error, and bending the ear of someone kind enough to help. Should I take courses to become better quicker? Sure! Can I? Not on your life; I have a mortage to pay. When I graduated high school, my parents told me they would pay for my education as long as I didn't study anything art related. I envy those of you who were able to get a solid photography education. Now, after reading this thread, I feel like I'm the kid with the cold who has to stay inside, while pressing my nose against the window watching the other kids play. Now I'm not sure if I belong in this neighborhood...


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## Universal Polymath (Nov 3, 2007)

kundalini said:


> _Post_



Yes!  I couldn't agree with you more!  And moving on...

Nah, Wildmaven, don't feel that way!  If you haven't questioned, up to this point, whether or not you belong in the pro forum, why second-guess yourself now?  Your photos are a lot better than plenty of stuff posted on this site, both in and out of the business section.  And you're only going to get better, the more you practice, the more you post, and the more you learn from your peers.

I think another factor to take into account, besides the mere quality of the photography, is the _intent _behind the work.  If we're talking about some mom posting pictures of her son just because _he's cute_, well, she should probably know better than to post in the professional gallery.  And yes, when so many don't know better, cases like that can become tiresome.  But if we're dealing with someone who - while their pictures may not yet be any technically better than that mother's snapshots - is really, truly trying to become proficient and skilled as a photographer, I wouldn't mind them posting in the professional gallery.  I'd just hope that the response they received would be constructive, and that they'd actually learn something for next time.

If you are a seasoned pro and you come across someone that is not yet so talented why not offer up a few tips?  I'm sure it's incredibly intimidating for some beginners to post their work here (I know it was really hard for me to post my first pictures - What a nerve-racking experience!).  If, after my first post, I had someone simply tell me to take a class, and not to come back until I knew what I was doing, I would probably never post again, either in the pro forum or anywhere else.  Keeping this in mind, I'd never say anything like that to anyone else; I'd first want to commend their effort and then try to help them in any way I could.  I'm just not about isolating others, making them feel like they don't belong, or driving them off the forums.

The $00.02 of a newbie.


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 3, 2007)

Universal Polymath said:


> I think another factor to take into account, besides the mere quality of the photography, is the _intent _behind the work.  If we're talking about some mom posting pictures of her son just because _he's cute_, well, she should probably know better than to post in the professional gallery.  And yes, when so many don't know better, cases like that can become tiresome.  But if we're dealing with someone who - while their pictures may not yet be any technically better than that mother's snapshots - is really, truly trying to become proficient and skilled as a photographer, I wouldn't mind them posting in the professional gallery.  I'd just hope that the response they received would be constructive, and that they'd actually learn something for next time.



I totally agree with you here and this is what I'm trying to say.  However, I refuse to believe that people who continually post pictures with a mere "cc" are not truly trying to learn.  That's part of my beef.  If you are truly trying to learn you ask for specifics.  Ya know?


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 3, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> When I graduated high school, my parents told me they would pay for my education as long as I didn't study anything art related. I envy those of you who were able to get a solid photography education.



BTW...both of my parents are intellectuals and fored me to follow suit. (no art related degrees)  I studied Organic Chemistry and after graduation I did what I had to to learn Photography.  (including doing grunt work at photography studios!) So you are not alone, dont through the pity part just yet.


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## DHammer (Nov 3, 2007)

Well this door swings both ways to be honest with you. While I am a professional and do fairly well. I have a few non-professional friends who have forgotten more about photography than most professionals will ever know. And the funny thing is they won't come to photography forums because of the few "arrogant" pro's they've seen on them. And by no means am I calling anyone here arrogant, you may be I just don't know any of you well enough to form that opinion for myself LOL. Anyway they would much rather deal with the beginners than the pro's and let me tell you these three guys (2 guys 1 woman sorry) do outstanding things with a camera. I am personally honored anytime they are willing to even knock my photos because right afterwards comes real hard earned knowledge in ways (not one way but several) in how to fix or do differently what I have done. So I believe if you cut out the non-pro's you may be cutting out some amazing experience and knowledge and maybe some great questions asked by some clueless beginner that answers a question or two for a pro.


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 3, 2007)

DHammer said:


> Well this door swings both ways to be honest with you. While I am a professional and do fairly well. I have a few non-professional friends who have forgotten more about photography than most professionals will ever know. And the funny thing is they won't come to photography forums because of the few "arrogant" pro's they've seen on them. And by no means am I calling anyone here arrogant, you may be I just don't know any of you well enough to form that opinion for myself LOL. Anyway they would much rather deal with the beginners than the pro's and let me tell you these three guys (2 guys 1 woman sorry) do outstanding things with a camera. I am personally honored anytime they are willing to even knock my photos because right afterwards comes real hard earned knowledge in ways (not one way but several) in how to fix or do differently what I have done. So I believe if you cut out the non-pro's you may be cutting out some amazing experience and knowledge and maybe some great questions asked by some clueless beginner that answers a question or two for a pro.



This may be true but those that you are speaking of are definetly the exception instead of the rule.


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## Universal Polymath (Nov 3, 2007)

Allsmiles7282 said:


> That's part of my beef.  If you are truly trying to learn you ask for specifics.  Ya know?



I guess so.  But at the same time, it could be a matter of beginners just not knowing what to specifically ask.  

And true, merely saying "CC" doesn't automatically make one a serious student of photography.  But at the very least, you know right off that bat that they are looking for more than cookie-cutter responses and praise.  I think people honestly looking for critique care less about the five people who say "Oh wow, I love this!" than the one person who says "I like what you did there, but here's where you could improve ..."  Those are the posts to really take to heart.  So while "CC" may not be the most in-depth plea for help, it's a start.


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 3, 2007)

Universal Polymath said:


> I guess so.  But at the same time, it could be a matter of beginners just not knowing what to specifically ask.
> So while "CC" may not be the most in-depth plea for help, it's a start.



I agree but I still say that the pro gallery is not the place for this.  I go there to get inspored by other seasoned photographers, not to see beginner after beginner.


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## wildmaven (Nov 3, 2007)

Allsmiles7282 said:


> BTW...both of my parents are intellectuals and fored me to follow suit. (no art related degrees) I studied Organic Chemistry and after graduation I did what I had to to learn Photography. (including doing grunt work at photography studios!) So you are not alone, dont throw the pity part just yet.


 
I'm a one-woman pity party lately. Sometimes it flows out onto the boards unintentionally. I have a disease which is affecting my ability to see, and I wonder if I'll even be able to be a photographer much longer.  

Chemistry, eh? I'm in Nuclear Medicine! :thumbup: 



Universal Polymath said:


> Nah, Wildmaven, don't feel that way! If you haven't questioned, up to this point, whether or not you belong in the pro forum, why second-guess yourself now? Your photos are a lot better than plenty of stuff posted on this site, both in and out of the business section. And you're only going to get better, the more you practice, the more you post, and the more you learn from your peers.


 
(((Hugs))) Thank you. You have no idea how much I needed to hear that right now. :hug::



Allsmiles7282 said:


> I agree but I still say that the pro gallery is not the place for this. I go there to get inspored by other seasoned photographers, not to see beginner after beginner.


 
Therein lies the problem. I've found sensational ideas put forth by beginners. Sometimes beginners can look at your photo with new eyes and perhaps see something you haven't even thought about. Yes, we beginners can ask lots of questions and be a pain in the rear sometimes, but we also are filled with a fire to learn. We haven't seen 5,000 photos of a bride running down a hill, hand in hand, with her future husband, so we think it's exciting and will reply in kind. When a professional board loses that excitement, that "wow" factor, then I'd rather not be a part of it. 

Perhaps the beginners, "the mom's", know that they will get better replies from the pros. 

Maybe instead of trying to restrict the pro section, we should have a "Pro Evaluation" section instead, where non-pros can post their photos for the pros to critique? I know many here who would love to be a part of that! And, it would give those errant posts in the pro section a place in which to be moved. 

Marian


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## dvduval (Nov 3, 2007)

As a newer user, one problem I found when trying to visit some of the photo areas was there was no simple way to see which photos were more popular, or which were submitted by "esteemed" photographers. When clicking on threads its somewhat "hit or miss" what you are going to find.


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## zendianah (Nov 3, 2007)

This is the BUSINESS district, yet there are a lot of "moms with a camera" on here that feel the need to criticize people that are actual professionals. Just because you have money to buy a nice camera does not make you a professional nor give you the right to criticize others on something you know little about.




HMMMM... What makes a professional a professional?

 Once upon a time I did not have 3 kids.. In my old life I went to Art school in NYC and took some photography classes. (FILM)... Hated it. I loved photoshop and I hated scanning pictures to play in PS. Digital came along and WOW... I had a kid.. OH my goodness I bought a digital camera then became MOM with a camera... 2 more came.. Then I became mom with a NICER camera... Does that make me less of a photographer?  When you have kids.. THAT will make you a Mom with a Camera!!  Regardless of your old life without kids,.  

I'm sorry I HATE that narrow minded term. If you chose to be in a FREE forum then you will be surrounded by 15 year old kids that LOVE photography and may even get paid.-- OH wait and yea.. MOMS with a camera........So lets throw it all out there.. How about Gays with a camera... and lets attack Straights with a camera.. Buddhistswith a camera???  Christians with a Camera???  How about me??  Puerto Rican Buddist MOM that went to art school with a CAMERA?????

Should I not post ???I paid my dues and I have earned my right to post in the pro section.. Whether I am gay, christian, buddhist, a mom , purple or brown.....  I will NOT stop posting in the pro section just because I am a mother. One day you may be asking me for advice.


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## Chris of Arabia (Nov 3, 2007)

People who got out on the wrong side of the bed with a camera?


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## Universal Polymath (Nov 3, 2007)

zendianah said:


> _Post_



Wow, what a post!  

But Zendianah, I don't think Allsmiles was implying that all photographers that happen to be mothers are inherently made less of a photographer as a result.  Just like gay photographers, Buddhist photographers and Puerto Rican photographers are no less valid based on those distinctions.

By "moms with a camera" posting in the business section, she was refering to the amateur photographers that post snapshot after snapshot of their children, with the focus being more on showing off their cute kid than actually gaining insight into their photography.  Yes, you are a mother, but you are not guilty of this in any way.  I've seen your wedding posts, and your stuff is great!  Of course you earned the right to post in the professional section, no doubt about it.  But you earned that right because you _wanted_ the right - You practiced and practiced and perfected your craft.  The problem that Allsmiles is refering to is the posters that haven't done this, seem to have no interest in doing this, and therefore _have not_ earned the right to post there.  

The whole "mother" thing was just an example of a type of poster looking for "awwwe"s and "how cute"s before actual insight into their work - Which is the wrong reason to post.  Whether or not one is a mother, though, is far from the main issue.


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## zendianah (Nov 3, 2007)

Universal Polymath said:


> Wow, what a post!
> 
> But Zendianah, I don't think Allsmiles was implying that all photographers that happen to be mothers are inherently made less of a photographer as a result. Just like gay photographers, Buddhist photographers and Puerto Rican photographers are no less valid based on those distinctions.
> 
> ...


 

I do agree with you in regards to snap shots.. But how do we know that the person that posted that "snapshot" doesnt think that it is her best work? She may not know that it is a snapshot. Should that keep her from not posting? I posted some CRAP when I first posted... I didnt know it was crap. I thought is was ok. I learned and I am still contiually learning. I posted in the general gallery... wait.. once I posted in the critque section.. and got my ass handed to me.. It was funny. BUT i learned. 

I do feel insulted... and maybe because I am a mom with a camera. Thank you for saying my weddings and kids photos are good. I think they are ok.. I am contiually learning and appreciate the help that the "beginners, pros and everyone gives me".. and the "moms" ..


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## Universal Polymath (Nov 3, 2007)

zendianah said:


> I do agree with you in regards to snap shots.. But how do we know that the person that posted that "snapshot" doesnt think that it is her best work? She may not know that it is a snapshot. Should that keep her from not posting? I posted some CRAP when I first posted... I didnt know it was crap. I thought is was ok. I learned and I am still contiually learning. I posted in the general gallery... wait.. once I posted in the critque section.. and got my ass handed to me.. It was funny. BUT i learned.
> 
> I do feel insulted... and maybe because I am a mom with a camera. Thank you for saying my weddings and kids photos are good. I think they are ok.. I am contiually learning and appreciate the help that the "beginners, pros and everyone gives me".. and the "moms" ..



Just for the record, I was merely summarizing, to the best of my understanding, Allsmiles' stance.  I didn't, however, say I entirely agreed with her.  

Above,_ I_ said:

_If we're dealing with someone who - while their pictures may not yet be any technically better than that mother's snapshots - is really, truly trying to become proficient and skilled as a photographer, I wouldn't mind them posting in the professional gallery. I'd just hope that the response they received would be constructive, and that they'd actually learn something for next time ...If you are a seasoned pro and you come across someone that is not yet so talented why not offer up a few tips? I'm sure it's incredibly intimidating for some beginners to post their work here (I know it was really hard for me to post my first pictures - What a nerve-racking experience!). If, after my first post, I had someone simply tell me to take a class, and not to come back until I knew what I was doing, I would probably never post again, either in the pro forum or anywhere else. Keeping this in mind, I'd never say anything like that to anyone else; I'd first want to commend their effort and then try to help them in any way I could. I'm just not about isolating others, making them feel like they don't belong, or driving them off the forums._

Sound okay?


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## jols (Nov 3, 2007)

phew!  took me a while to read all that.

hers my two bobs worth if anyones interested.

im a MUM and i take take photos of my son and i wont be stopping 

i get paid for my portraits/weddings so i can post in the business section if i want to.

i may post a few of my son in that section to get some comments if im trying something new out. and i wont be stopping that either.

and lastly just because someone is being paid for there work anybody can comment on it if its an open forum.

someone may of been paid a thousand for one photo but if someone else comments that its blurry or not sharp enough that is thier opinion.

if you are sensitive to comments i suggest you just do not post.

cause beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Allsmiles7282 (Nov 3, 2007)

zendianah said:


> I'm sorry I HATE that narrow minded term. If you chose to be in a FREE forum then you will be surrounded by 15 year old kids that LOVE photography and may even get paid.-- OH wait and yea.. MOMS with a camera........So lets throw it all out there.. How about Gays with a camera... and lets attack Straights with a camera.. Buddhistswith a camera???  Christians with a Camera???  How about me??  Puerto Rican Buddist MOM that went to art school with a CAMERA?????



This post to me shows complete ignorance and is why this forum is completely held back.  i have said my .02 and will now join the ranks of other serious photographers that have left this board.  goodbye.


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## zendianah (Nov 3, 2007)

Universal Polymath said:


> Just for the record, I was merely summarizing, to the best of my understanding, Allsmiles' stance. I didn't, however, say I entirely agreed with her.
> 
> Above,_ I_ said:
> 
> ...


 

Hey there.. 

What you said I understood completely the first time. That was well put the second time also.   I am not mad at anyone .. I wanted to state my opinion.  Just because a statement.. "not yours" insults me.. Doesnt make me angry at that person. Thats their problem and opinion not mine. 

I of course being a gemini needs to throw her 2 cents in.. Oh .. and Im also PMSing.. ha ha and as Chris of Arabia stated .. " Today"  I am a photographer who woke up on the wrong side of the bed. 

Gotta love that !


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## jols (Nov 3, 2007)

its the ignorance in the first post that started this thread thats what sad about this forum.

i really like it here and value peoples opinions and help.

sometimes  pic comes up and i think its great or rubbish but if i reply to the thread i think i am supportive.

i dont like negative vibes and as another saying goes '' if you cant say anything nice done say anything at all''

you can be negative about a pic but always end on a cheery note.


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## LaFoto (Nov 3, 2007)

Well, I understand that "Moms with a camera" is a term, albeit far, far, far from being a politically correct one (!!!), and does not really mean "mothers" who "own and use their cameras". For if that were the case and if I were to understand the term in that sense, I would need to feel offended by it, as well! For I have a camera, and have children, and take photos - of late even of weddings and other things, on commission, getting paid. 

HOWEVER - I still rarely feel like it is for me to post in the Professional Wedding and Portrait Forum. I go to People and Pets. That is where I feel my photos of people (those rare ones that I feel like showing - it often is a matter of release why you never get to see any of my people photos) should go. We HAVE a forum for the lovely photos of cute little children (or pretty bigger children). It's not that it weren't there.

We even have a further distinction. There also is the Snapshots and Blooper Forum. And WHAT IS WRONG in posting your snapshot there? Feeling like "Snapshots and Bloopers" is like posting into a garbage can totally underestimates the real and true VALUE of a snapshot! And they HAVE a value, a right to exist, and may even be really good! Just not made "professionally" or with intentions to be creating "art" or so! Just spur-of-the-moment photo ops that you took advantage of.

So there ... this discussion is actually mute.
There are forums for everybody.

And it is up to everyone to define themselves!
And whoever feels like posting their photos into the Professional Weddings and Portraits Forum should also be willing to live with harsh critique, just as if they were posting to General Critical Analysis. For they present their work to (fellow?)-pros. That is the idea. And that idea should be followed.


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## bellacat (Nov 3, 2007)

Allsmiles I can totally understand where you are coming from and while I don't have the experience you have I understand what your frustration must be. At the same time I also appreciate any and all advice the seasoned pros give in this section. I have learned so much just by asking the right questions. While I have had clients LOVE the shots they have paid me to take I know they can be some much better and with time they will be. 

Having my own photog biz is something new for me but so far I have had happy clients. I want to learn as much as I can and the more i read the comments and questions others have posted the more I know what to ask and look for with my own photos. I do have a art related degree and have taken photography in school but does that qualify my to stand with the pros? No not yet. Why? I am just not as good as those who have been working at this for many years. Does this mean I can not learn from you all and am not willing to learn? No I want to and that is why I am here. I'm sure there are photogs here who would rather see me not post at all and i can understand that. But for the most part this forum has offered a wealth of information in just a couple months and I learn something new everyday and then apply it to my sessions.

I have posted in the past in the other gallery forums especially when I have specific questions but have posted a couple times here as well. Will i post a photo of my kid or a friends kid because I thought it was cute...NO. Might I post a few photos from a recent paid session that I thought came out particularly well but would love to get feed back from the Pros. Yes I would.

Maybe we need a forum where we can post our photos and get reviews and feed back from pros. I don't think my photos are great and never said they were. I am still learning and appreciate all the feed back anyone has given to me and hope to show to you all that my photos will improve the more i work on them.


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## Hertz van Rental (Nov 3, 2007)

A 'professional' is someone who does it for a living - that is, that's how they make their money.
An 'amateur' is someone who does it for fun or as a hobby and makes little or no money out of it.
A 'semi-professional' is someone who works at it part-time - it is not their main source of income.

Those are the strict definitions. Whichever one you are then that is what you are called. You may not like it or you may disagree with it but that is your problem.

All that said, I've known professionals who were cr*p and I've known amateurs who were damn near geniuses. Your status in this game bears no relation to your abilities.
It's worth remembering that.
To look down on people because they are classed as amateurs, or to hold in awe people classed as professionals is pure folly. Each is capable of giving good or bad advice and their status is no indication of which it will be.
If you post pictures then you are giving people permission to make comments on them - and people have the right to make whatever comments they like. You are just as likely to get cr*p advice as good. The trick is for you to decide which is which. If you don't like what someone says about your work then ignore it. At the end of the day it is all just personal opinion so only you can decide if it is of any use to you.


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## jols (Nov 3, 2007)

hertz

perfectly said

so im semi professional   :thumbup:


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## bellacat (Nov 3, 2007)

Hertz i second Jols, well said. I guess I am pro part-time as my other job doesn't pay LOL I am hoping that i will be pro-full time sometime though.


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## zendianah (Nov 3, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> Well, I understand that "Moms with a camera" is a term, albeit far, far, far from being a politically correct one (!!!), and does not really mean "mothers" who "own and use their cameras". For if that were the case and if I were to understand the term in that sense, I would need to feel offended by it, as well! For I have a camera, and have children, and take photos - of late even of weddings and other things, on commission, getting paid.
> 
> HOWEVER - I still rarely feel like it is for me to post in the Professional Wedding and Portrait Forum. I go to People and Pets. That is where I feel my photos of people (those rare ones that I feel like showing - it often is a matter of release why you never get to see any of my people photos) should go. We HAVE a forum for the lovely photos of cute little children (or pretty bigger children). It's not that it weren't there.
> 
> ...


 
Well put !


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## Mike Jordan (Nov 3, 2007)

Why would anyone care if someone is a member for a long time and never posts?  I've been on sites that have hundreds of members that have been members for years and never posted anything, yet regularly visit the site to read the other posts.  That's their right of course.  But then I always look at it that if someone is just a reader and not a contributor, then they don't really have a right to complain about the direction that the forum is going, do they?  After all, it's the people that particapate, that give their time and posts that make a forum what it is.  

The owner and moderators can control the direction a forum goes in, but unless they do, it's really up to those that particapate to give a forum it's direction.  

So AllSmiles, you have rarely posted in the last couple of years, yet you don't like the direction that this section has gone in and you are complaining about it. So when it comes down to it, who's fault is it? Those that have posted the way you don't like or those that haven't posted and tried to steer it in a different direction?  

To me, The Photo Forum is not a serious learning forum at all. It's more a social forum.  There are too many people on here that are not interested in learning. At least not seriously interested. They want to get better and they want to share their images, but aren't really interested in taking it much further. Which is ok, there are a lot of forums like that and there is nothing wrong with them.  But as for really learning photography, especially the business side of photography, you will find some of that here, but there are other forums that are better suited towards this.  But you will have to look and do a lot of careful evaluation.  As the saying goes, you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince. It's that way with photo forums as well. 

Mike


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## Hertz van Rental (Nov 3, 2007)

Mike Jordan said:


> it's the people that particapate, that give their time and posts that make a forum what it is.



So as one of the top five posters on this Forum I think it only fair that you blame me if it's cr*ap :lmao:


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## jols (Nov 3, 2007)

would nt dare.

you look creepy

and your last post had 666 on the end of it


:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## wildmaven (Nov 3, 2007)

LOL, the term "semi-professional" sounds like you're only half serious. I much more prefer the term "part time professional".


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## Joxby (Nov 3, 2007)

Allsmiles7282 said:


> This post to me shows complete ignorance and is why this forum is completely held back.  i have said my .02 and will now join the ranks of other serious photographers that have left this board.  goodbye.



This post shows complete arrogance and is why this forum is completely held back.
There is a serious beef in "professional" ranks towards "amateurs".
This type of attitude is symptomatic, of an underlying current that flows through some professionals, and its all about money.
Simple economics dictate, the more good photographers there are, the harder "professionals" have to work to earn their crust.
Its not in their interests, looking at the big picture, to help anyone become good enough to take their work away.
I know many pro's with this chip on their shoulder, they want a closed club, a monopoly, to protect their interests.
Allsmiles suggestions hold some merit in the context he/she speaks, but, if protecting ones interests were not an issue, (I dont feel a few snapshots in the wrong forum is the no1 contributing factor) I feel his/her post would never have been made.
With the advent of cheap digital photography, comes added econmic pressure to those who's photography puts bread on the table.
This forum appears to be a place to learn, from day 1 to day 1000001, trying to form a closed shop of critique, defined by...what...whether you get paid or not ? feels......against the spirit and ideals of the free forum concept..


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## jols (Nov 3, 2007)

did nt think of that so part time pro it is.

oh heck shall i just say pro..................................better not would upset some people thats the premier togs around here.


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## Joxby (Nov 3, 2007)

and furthermore.....I'm outstanding at killing threads


No....really, this "serious" thing, wealth is relative if we're talking money, when an amateur whos saved money for any length of time, is made to hand it over to the photo shopkeeper in a big ole wad. 
For that particular moment in time, I garrentee they are the single most "serious" living cluster of carbon cells..on Earth.
for that moment..


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## Mike Jordan (Nov 3, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> So as one of the top five posters on this Forum I think it only fair that you blame me if it's cr*ap :lmao:



 Well, now that you mention it... 

Naw, I think it was a team effort. You don't get to take all the credit. 



Seriously though, if you look at the statistics, you will find that for any forum, there are just a handful (usually less than 25 or so) that post 80% of the time. A bunch that post 15% of the time and a even larger group that post maybe 4%. Then you have all of those that only post 1% of the time or never post at all.  With so few doing so much of the posting, it's only a given that the main posters are going to set the tone and thyme of any given forum or area within a forum. 

I don't know if anyone has looked at the statistics for this forum, but sometimes the numbers will surprise you when you look at them as a whole. 

Mike


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## Artograph (Nov 3, 2007)

Wow.....Did some non-professional, mom-with-a-camera crap in your cereal this morning?

Poop poop!!!!!!!


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## dtlasky (Nov 3, 2007)

I know exactly how you feel about the subject, i no pro and i don't consider myself to be or carry myself like one. Do you feel that if I was trying starting a business like I am trying to do, that this would be a good place to find out? I dont want to get in the way of people who use this forum in order to communicate with _professionals_. 

I myself would never consider disrespecting someone who is more skilled on the subject, but on the other hand it really pisses me off when I see a mother at a highschool football game with a d200 and a 2.8 lens, SHOOTING IN FREAKING AUTOMATIC. Yesterday was senior night at my school so I was there taking pictures (for the yearbook) and i had a lady with the forementioned setup ask me if i got better pictures at night with my _flash_ (sb-600). I responed with "What the hell do you think."  That type of stuff really grinds my gears, if you know what I mean.


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## Chas (Nov 3, 2007)

skieur said:


> Pros, if you really want a "professional forum" then take the gloves off, so-to-speak and critique photos as professional shots...in detail with higher expectations for quality. Jump in and don't let comments pass that are totally "ignorant" of basic photography. Suggest that some posters should be moving their work to another gallery.
> skieur


I very much agree with this. I am an amateur, and only read posts in this (pro) forum occasionally in hopes of learning something from you types with a deal of accumulated knowledge and experience. I'm not expecting pearls of wisdom throughout, but it ought to be worth spending the time. What I would hope to see would be some really tough discussion, "egos left at the door", about the qualities and deficiencies of the work displayed. I am a scientist, and when I present my work at a convention, or even at an internal department meeting, I expect my work to be thoroughly analyzed and any perceived weaknesses to be pointed out. Naturally I sometimes don't agree with a specific point of criticism, but this comes with the territory and then again sometimes I am forced to think again, acknowledge a valuable criticism and perhaps, heaven forbid, learn from the experience. 

When amateurs post photos in other (non-pro) areas of the forum, perhaps a certain sensitivity to personal feelings is appropriate, but too much of this even there degrades the value of the forum IMO. 

So, if an amateur chooses to present work in the professional section (inappropriately, IMO) and engage in the serious debate there, they had better come prepared for some strong criticism if it is justified - and even if they believe that it isn't. The kid gloves should be off. Don't like the heat? Then leave the kitchen.


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## Mesoam (Nov 3, 2007)

A little honesty on my end, its pretty easy for someone who knows nothing about photography to just recognize a nice picture. By far the easiest way to judge a photo is, &#8220;would I put this in my house?&#8221; Yes there are plenty of crappy pictures but people are learning, and let me tell you I have seen more amateur photographers taking more respectable work than &#8220;professionals&#8221; scrapping by client to client&#8230;

   /end rant


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## JIP (Nov 3, 2007)

I have not read this whole thread because I am coming into it late but one thing from the op is correct (or mabye it is just how I personally interpreted the OP).  There is a section called "_professional _portrait and wedding gallery" I go to this section to get inspiration from some of the excellent professional photographers on this forumwhen I go there and see a snapshot from the afformentioned "mom with camera" I am a little disapointed it could be a dad to whatever it is just not a professional image.  If that section is meant to be portraits from anyone I think the name of the thread and section should be changed.  I know there is a section called "people and pets" and I know some images would just as well fit there but being a lot lower it does not garner the attention of the "professional portrait" section but it sems to me that if it is called "professional" portraits in the "business district" the images should be just that professional images from working photographers.  Honestly the feedback should be able to come from anyone but why call it "professional" if that is not the case.  One last thing, one solution to this might be to add a portrait section for aspiring amatuer photographers a little higher up than "people and pets" and named differently because I think "people and pets" implies snapshots of your friends and family and.  Well whatever sorry for the rambling I guess I have been away from the forum for a little too long.


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## JerryPH (Nov 3, 2007)

I am not a pro in any sense of the word, and if I am breaking any protocol by posting here, I apologize in advance. Please feel free to delete this post if needed.

It sincerely all looks to me like a fairly simple problem at the root of it all and kinda grew into a big thorn bush that touches many people in the wrong way, some more than others.

To me, the answer is simple... if you are not a professional, don't post your work in the section reserved for professionals, even if it is good or bad. Respect the rules of that area that is reserved exclusively for them. Non-pros have their areas and critiques will be lightly tempered and matched with the abilities and experience of the person requesting aid. 

If someone does post in there, instead of offering a potentially insulting critique, either delete or move their pics/comments to the appropriate area. Educate the user to place their pictures and comments in the right place so that they and others in the future do not repeat this error.

A second option is to merely set board permissions so that only confirmed pros can post in their area, but that all board members can view and read their comments and learn from it. I am sure that vBulletin is able to do this... most forum software can.

I also feel that although Allsmiles felt strongly about how this board was run, forums are made by the people that contribute to it... not by the people that read and offer little to nothing in return. If in 3 years she posted merely ~175 times and then complained that it was so terrible here and left, it is perhaps better that she did leave. Her contributions were minimal and no one will miss them. 

Her decision was to leave, we but need to respect her decision to do so... and hope she is not as emotional concerning other more important things in her life compared to the triviality of a non-pro posting a picture in the wrong area of the forum. 

I personally, wish her well.


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## skieur (Nov 3, 2007)

Joxby said:


> This post shows complete arrogance and is why this forum is completely held back.
> There is a serious beef in "professional" ranks towards "amateurs".
> This type of attitude is symptomatic, of an underlying current that flows through some professionals, and its all about money.
> Simple economics dictate, the more good photographers there are, the harder "professionals" have to work to earn their crust.
> ...


 
This incoherent rant demonstrates that Allsmiles had good reason to post her criticism.

skieur


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## raider (Nov 4, 2007)

i agree 100% with allsmiles.  and what's wrong with getting worried about a 'MWAC' taking your business.  the real professionals invest lots of money getting the right equipment, offices/studios, advertising, etc. and we still have to fight to educate the public that the people who bought a camera, took a nice picture, and then started selling their services due to overly gratuitous comments on places like here may not live up to a professional standard, they may not be able to adapt to less than perfect conditions, may not have a backup or even the right equipment, etc.  but all the consumer sees is the really low price, which may force the pros to lower theirs ultimately driving them out of business because this stuff isn't cheap.

i see it all the time here also - 'i bought a camera and now i'm ready to go pro'.  it gets to me, but i also am a lurker so i really don't care which way the forum's future heads.  besides, all she's saying is post in the proper forum.  imagine a professional football game where a high school player runs out on the field - would they embrace him as one of their own?


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## Joxby (Nov 4, 2007)

skieur said:


> This incoherent rant demonstrates that Allsmiles had good reason to post her criticism.
> 
> skieur




Well.....that makes sense

I congratulate you on such a well constructed argument against said, incoherent rant.


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## Hertz van Rental (Nov 4, 2007)

> professionals invest lots of money getting the right equipment, offices/studios, advertising, etc.


True but it is no guarantee of the actual pictures produced being any good _or_ value for money.
ALL professionals started out as amateurs, and each one that makes the move takes as much work from existing professionals as they create new. Just remember that. So if it was OK for you to turn from amateur to pro and take work from other professionals, why is it not OK for someone to try to do the same to you? 
If a photographer is any good, can sell themselves, give the client what they want, adapt to changing conditions and give value for money then they will survive. If they can't do that they will quickly go out of business. And stepping on the faces of people with the same aspirations as you once had will not change that fact of life.
But it does make it clear that a lot of people who make the jump from amateur to professional are suddenly hit by the reality of their situation: being a pro is a precarious business and you can't sleep at nights for worrying if you'll have any work next week, and you are always looking over your shoulder to see if someone is poaching your clients.
Photography is a business like any other. You have lean times and good times. And you will always have competition and newbies wanting to join your ranks.
Live with it or get a new career.



> all the consumer sees is the really low price


This is the _real_ problem. But not all consumers are like that. Just as many want something different or something special - and it is that part of the market that the wise pro aims at.

Now I really do think this thread has run it's course and is just devolving into petty bitching.
Can a kindly Mod lock it? If you don't there will be tears before bedtime.


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## LaFoto (Nov 4, 2007)

Hertzilein, I can only but agree ... I had planned to lock this even right after an earlier post but thought common sense would make people stay away from commenting any further, but before this gets any worse I shall lock it now.


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