# Wants to learn



## Dave Maciak (Mar 22, 2021)

The other day a neighbor who knows I've been a life long devotee and active photographer told me his daughter, 19, college freshman, wanted to learn the craft.  Her and her dad came over and asked what the best, and least expensive digital to learn with.  I made my recommendation and the room went dead silent.  I said "Start with film, not digital".  What????  I told them what.  Get a manual, 2nd hand 35mm.  No "whiz bang loaded model.  Just a TTL meter. Learn exposure, f stops, shutter speed, ISO,
(ASA?) How to compensate for brightness, darkness, and on and on.
It's more expensive these days but it will teach you so when you move up to a digital you'll be way ahead, through simple understanding.  What you get in your images is what you get!  And, don't be discouraged because you get a few "misses".  That's how you learn.

PS She bought an old Pentax at a bargain price.


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## Original katomi (Mar 22, 2021)

I would have said go digital
You can play and learn . Still make the same errors worth out the cost of film an develop and printing


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## Ysarex (Mar 22, 2021)

Original katomi said:


> I would have said go digital
> You can play and learn . Still make the same errors worth out the cost of film an develop and printing



Absolutely. There is no substitute for immediate feedback, make a change and again immediate feedback. Learning with a digital camera accelerates the learning process immensely. I speak from years of in-the-field direct experience. Digital cameras have shutters -- they do the same thing. Digital camera lenses have apertures -- they do the same thing. Digital cameras have internal light meters -- they do the same thing. ISO on digital cameras is different than film. Why learn film only to have to re-learn later with digital.


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## Soocom1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Actually I am going to agree to a point. 
The film aspect is a good idea because though there is more in a wait and cost factor, its like teaching someone on a slide rule over that of a smart phone calculator app. 
yeah its current and all, but you have to apply thought into film.


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## 407370 (Mar 22, 2021)

Dave Maciak said:


> .............. I said "Start with film, not digital".  What????  I told them what.  Get a manual, 2nd hand 35mm.  No "whiz bang loaded model.  ........What you get in your images is what you get!  And, don't be discouraged because you get a few "misses".  That's how you learn.
> 
> PS She bought an old Pentax at a bargain price.


I respectfully disagree.

I learned computing on MS DOS without a graphical interface. I would never suggest to anyone that's the way everyone should learn about computers. 
They will get into bad habits being limited by the number of exposures they can produce. How do they process the images?
How do they learn what autofocus is?
How can they post an image on a forum to get feedback?

The suggestion to start from film is just not practical.


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## webestang64 (Mar 22, 2021)

I don't even shoot digital (all film here) but I would still suggest a good beginner digital SLR. 

Like one in this article......   Best beginner DSLR cameras 2021: the 11 finest DSLRs for new photographers | TechRadar


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## SquarePeg (Mar 22, 2021)

They still teach it in high school with film cameras.  IMO that is outdated.  I don't have anything against film but it's expensive as a learning tool.  I would have recommended a used Nikon 5000 series to start off with and the book Understanding Exposure by Bryan Pederson as a great beginner's guide.


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## Ysarex (Mar 22, 2021)

Soocom1 said:


> Actually I am going to agree to a point.
> The film aspect is a good idea because though there is more in a wait and cost factor, its like teaching someone on a slide rule over that of a smart phone calculator app.
> yeah its current and all, but you have to apply thought into film.



I went to the park yesterday and took photos with a digital camera. I didn't apply any less thought into what I did yesterday than I used to when I used film. I had to set an exposure just like I used to with film and I had to get accurate focus just like I used to with film. Concerns for shutter speed/movement were the same and concerns for DOF were the same; same amount of thought.


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## Original katomi (Mar 22, 2021)

I come from a film background and I still  apply the same care as I would film however as said digital means I can play with an idea some thing I could never do with film because of the cost


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## Rickbb (Mar 22, 2021)

Too bad they don't make a manual only digital, would be the perfect student camera. The only way anyone will learn well is on a manual only camera. Humans are basically lazy and will flip that switch to auto all to often. And won't learn a thing that they need to know about the craft.


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## Original katomi (Mar 22, 2021)

Were all film cameras all manual 
I Can use my canon 600d in manual mode. When doing desktop I use all manual settings


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## Ysarex (Mar 22, 2021)

Rickbb said:


> Too bad they don't make a manual only digital, would be the perfect student camera. The only way anyone will learn well is on a manual only camera. Humans are basically lazy and will flip that switch to auto all to often. And won't learn a thing that they need to know about the craft.


That's the: it's not my fault I'm not grown up and can't control myself argument. And the premise is wrong. I teach beginners to use a camera set in Program mode in order to make sure they have full control over the camera exposure settings and the outcome.


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## Rickbb (Mar 22, 2021)

And as soon as they leave the class and go out into the world, click, auto it is. I've tried to teach a few, but they just can't help themselves.


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## Ysarex (Mar 22, 2021)

Rickbb said:


> And as soon as they leave the class and go out into the world, click, auto it is. I've tried to teach a few, but they just can't help themselves.


I've taught many thousands and I know better.
I use my cameras in Program mode most of the time. That's because I insist on being in total control of the exposure parameters and I like efficiency.


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## 480sparky (Mar 22, 2021)

Compromise:

Buy a DSLR.  Set exposure mode to manual.  Set white balance to manual.  Turn off auto-focus.  Turn off image preview.

You now have a digital 'film' camera from the 1970's. 

Don't look at any of the images on the card until you get home to the computer.


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## JBPhotog (Mar 22, 2021)

A quick way to completely discourage an absolute nube is to make them shoot a fully manual film camera. Yeah I get it, many of us learned that way but that was also when phones were connected by wires and televisions had vacuum tubes, LOL.

Fast forward to 2021, teaching and learning the exposure triangle can be achieved with digital and also has the same caveats as with film, you just get to see it faster and for much less money.


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## Soocom1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Ysarex said:


> Soocom1 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I am going to agree to a point.
> ...


thats fine. 

just my opinion.


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## smoke665 (Mar 22, 2021)

I always laugh at folks that look down their noses at Auto as being cheating or the easy way. Maybe I'm just to old for all this technology stuff, but Auto is waaaaaayyyyyyyy more difficult than manual. First thing are we talking auto, program, the little green magic button on a Pentax (that can be all things), AV, TV, or TAV. Are you on AF or AFC, what about focus points, single, multi, offset, face? What about White Balance settings, metering options, and ISO limiters, don't forget single shot, continuous, bracket, and timed shutter, or all those in camera profiles to choose from. Oh wait I forgot EV compensation, and bracketing. Then there's a multitude of sub menus for things like SD card options, Crop mode, Focus peaking, Shadow/highlight correction, noise reduction, Clarify enhancement, skin tone, digital filters, HDR, Pixel Shift, Astrotracer, AA Filter Simulator, Shake Reduction, Composition Adjustment, Horizon correction,Lens corrections, SR focal length, Viewfinder gird, electronic level,  Wi-FI, and I've probably missed a few. Whew I'm so tired after "setting" all the "settings" to use the easy way with auto I'm to tired to take the shot............Guess that's why l just roll it to "M" for manual most of the time.


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## jcdeboever (Mar 22, 2021)

Dave Maciak said:


> The other day a neighbor who knows I've been a life long devotee and active photographer told me his daughter, 19, college freshman, wanted to learn the craft.  Her and her dad came over and asked what the best, and least expensive digital to learn with.  I made my recommendation and the room went dead silent.  I said "Start with film, not digital".  What????  I told them what.  Get a manual, 2nd hand 35mm.  No "whiz bang loaded model.  Just a TTL meter. Learn exposure, f stops, shutter speed, ISO,
> (ASA?) How to compensate for brightness, darkness, and on and on.
> It's more expensive these days but it will teach you so when you move up to a digital you'll be way ahead, through simple understanding.  What you get in your images is what you get!  And, don't be discouraged because you get a few "misses".  That's how you learn.
> 
> PS She bought an old Pentax at a bargain price.



I think this is a good thing. What if the girl doesn't like photography? It will not be due to the film camera. God forbid she actually loves it and then she will know exactly what she wants in a digital camera. I wasted around $1000 buying my first digital with lenses because I had no idea what I wanted. I was totally frustrated and almost quit. I decided to find a mentor. As we worked on the basics, he could see my frustration and suggested I borrowed his Nikon F and a 50mm. It was because of this, I could finally gain ground on the basics. It was liberating and made me love photography. I appluad you for making this recommendation and be sure to follow up with her.


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## Soocom1 (Mar 22, 2021)

Another point here. 
This girl is a beginner. 
knowing the ned result with digital is not a bad thing. 

But I have had the experience with many other industries where old school thought to force knowing how something works in an analog system helps bring the advantages of digital out, and moreover, switching to manual as smokes points out makes life alot easier. 
Most old school shutterbugs who switched to digital are thinking intuitively because they OLD TYME PHOTOGRAPEHRS!  This is a beginner.


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## Dave Maciak (Mar 23, 2021)

jcdeboever said:


> Dave Maciak said:
> 
> 
> > The other day a neighbor who knows I've been a life long devotee and active photographer told me his daughter, 19, college freshman, wanted to learn the craft.  Her and her dad came over and asked what the best, and least expensive digital to learn with.  I made my recommendation and the room went dead silent.  I said "Start with film, not digital".  What????  I told them what.  Get a manual, 2nd hand 35mm.  No "whiz bang loaded model.  Just a TTL meter. Learn exposure, f stops, shutter speed, ISO,
> ...


Thanks for your response.  It's been about 2 months since she got her Pentax.  During a backyard over the fence visit with her dad, he said I created a little monster!  She goes everywhere with that camera.  Stepped inside was invited to have a beer: her dad pointed out 2 bricks of Tri-x in the fridge waiting to be used.  She is a UNLV student and they have a lab for students to process their film, also print.  She is now talking about digital.  She loves the craft.  A few of the prints she made really show imagination and creativity.  There are some "stinker" prints usually from what I saw from exposure mistakes.  She sees those prints as a learning tool.  Smart kid.


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## Soocom1 (Mar 23, 2021)

See....


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## Nevermore1 (Mar 23, 2021)

My daughter enjoys film because she likes the process involved to see what she got.  When she took photography in school her teacher didn't know a thing about cameras past a point and shoot.  The one spot where digital helped her learn about aperture and exposure and what not was I was able to set up the camera and she could use the live view to get an idea as to how making certain changes changed what she'd get for the final picture. After she learned that her photos turned out much better and even her teacher noticed a drastic difference in her photos.


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## webestang64 (Mar 23, 2021)

Dave Maciak said:


> She is a UNLV student and they have a lab for students to process their film, also print.



If I knew that before my pervious post I would have gone with film. That makes it so much easier/less cost for her to learn.


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## Sharpshooterr (Mar 29, 2021)

jcdeboever said:


> Dave Maciak said:
> 
> 
> > The other day a neighbor who knows I've been a life long devotee and active photographer told me his daughter, 19, college freshman, wanted to learn the craft.  Her and her dad came over and asked what the best, and least expensive digital to learn with.  I made my recommendation and the room went dead silent.  I said "Start with film, not digital".  What????  I told them what.  Get a manual, 2nd hand 35mm.  No "whiz bang loaded model.  Just a TTL meter. Learn exposure, f stops, shutter speed, ISO,
> ...



That poor girl! Maybe by the time she gets her first roll of film back, she'll be married and have three kids!!! LoL
Just because the OP walked up hill in both directions in the snow to get to school and back doesn't mean everybody has to. I guess there's a certain perversity in forcing a digital native into ones old analog world just so they can see how much grandpa suffered!!! 
What the OP should have told her was to go to photo school where professional photographers with MFA's could guide her into what photography today really is and how you learn it.
Some don't know this but my Canon 1Dxll has every manual mode that old Pentax has.
How do I know, I shot with a Spotmatic for ten years..., when you HAD to!!!
SS


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## flyingPhoto (May 30, 2021)

Sharpshooterr said:


> That poor girl! Maybe by the time she gets her first roll of film back, she'll be married and have three kids!!! LoL
> Just because the OP walked up hill in both directions in the snow to get to school and back doesn't mean everybody has to. I guess there's a certain perversity in forcing a digital native into ones old analog world just so they can see how much grandpa suffered!!!
> What the OP should have told her was to go to photo school where professional photographers with MFA's could guide her into what photography today really is and how you learn it.
> Some don't know this but my Canon 1Dxll has every manual mode that old Pentax has.
> ...


personal opinion from both of us on this subject may cause SOME to cry, and others to hide under the bed. 

Personally, the approach you stated has little option to actually HELP the poor girl, or anyone LEARN photography. 
  Photography is the art of turning light into an image with a preset medium.  Some mediums offer faster results then others. 

However the thought that MFA holders would or could teach her what things are TODAY is a joke. Today is a joke in many ways as in todays standards, I am only "allowed" to use a digital camera and MUST ALLWAYS use PHOTOSHOP on ALL images made. 

The one drawback of film is that not all light meters are accurate anymore, and can give funny results. SO if they dont have a log book for each frame setting they may not learn the difference that made a bracketed shot good on this frame, but crap on this frame number


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