# I am a wedding and portrait photographer & I need advise from a commercial



## Hotelsincarmel (Jul 19, 2010)

I am a wedding and portrait photographer and I need some advise about my first commercial/fine art job. I was contracted by a local brewhouse to shoot the brewing tanks for the purpose of artwork for the walls of the brewhouse. I agreed to do this at no charge and I will provide 10 of the 16 - 20X24 prints that will be displayed on the wall. In return my name and/or web address will be displayed on every print & I will retain all rights to the photos. And he will have a price on every print in his brewhouse, when they sell we will split the sale price minus the cost of the print. 

* The first question I have is; How much should I charge for the print? 

* The next question I have is that now he wants the photographs on his web site. He does not mind linking to my site. I know I want my shots on his site for the publicity however I would very much like to recuperate some of the cost I will be coming out of pocket for the prints for his walls. What is the normal procedure in this case? 

* Lastly, the manufacture of the brew tanks now want to buy the photos for there web site and I have no Idea what to charge them. 
I have 50 very good edited pictures of brew tanks. Should I sell them to the tank company as a lot? Or should I price the individual pictures? What should I charge?

 All suggestions and advise are greatly appreciated.


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

Hotelsincarmel said:


> I am a wedding and portrait photographer and I need some advise about my first commercial/fine art job. I was contracted by a local brewhouse to shoot the brewing tanks for the purpose of artwork for the walls of the brewhouse. I agreed to do this at no charge and I will provide 10 of the 16 - 20X24 prints that will be displayed on the wall. In return my name and/or web address will be displayed on every print & I will retain all rights to the photos. And he will have a price on every print in his brewhouse, when they sell we will split the sale price minus the cost of the print.
> 
> * The first question I have is; How much should I charge for the print?
> 
> ...



This whole thing was your idea, How would we know?


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## pbelarge (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> This whole thing was your idea, How would we know?


 
Petraio
Were you born stupid or do you have to work so hard at being so...?



Hotelsincarmel
Welcome to the site.

There are plenty here who will help, just be patient.


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## oldmacman (Jul 19, 2010)

Hotelsincarmel said:


> I am a wedding and portrait photographer and I need some advise about my first commercial/fine art job. I was contracted by a local brewhouse to shoot the brewing tanks for the purpose of artwork for the walls of the brewhouse. I agreed to do this at no charge and I will provide 10 of the 16 - 20X24 prints that will be displayed on the wall. In return my name and/or web address will be displayed on every print & I will retain all rights to the photos. And he will have a price on every print in his brewhouse, when they sell we will split the sale price minus the cost of the print.
> 
> * The first question I have is; How much should I charge for the print?
> 
> ...



1- For the posters I would charge your printing cost plus a reasonable markup. You want these to move in volume; it's not a like a one off print you would do for a sitting.

2- I would consider the networking of putting them on his site as advertising costs. If the photos are good and you generate hits to your site you will recoup the cost through more business. You already agreed to do the posters on spec for the opportunity to get your name in the brewhouse. The web site is just an extension of that agreement.

3- This is where you can recoup some costs. Charge a fair portion of your time spent collecting and editing the photos. The manufacturer is not part of the original agreement. You can either decide to extend the agreement and further your networking or start reaping the rewards of your hard work.

I'm interested to see the pics. Can you post a couple?


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## bigtwinky (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> This whole thing was your idea, How would we know?


 
Most pointless reply I have ever read.

If YOU do not know what to say or do in this case, then move on. The user is asking for input and guidance from people in the know, which you are not one of.

Its the same as someone asking for which camera to buy, and you reply the same crap to them "Well, you want to buy it, how should we know?"

Seriously...its dimwitted replys like this that not only make you look like a turd, but damage the rep of the website.


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > This whole thing was your idea, How would we know?
> ...



I am amazed at some of the questions I see here. The answer I gave reflected that.


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## pbelarge (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> I am amazed at some of the questions I see here. The answer I gave reflected that.


 

If you were to take your selfcentered blinders off and realize that not all are as wonderful as yourself, the OP has a number of good questions. He is branching out of his daily routine and reaching out to others with more experience who can help him reduce the number of mistakes he may otherwise make. I would call that smart business.
Sounds like a very good question to me.


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > I am amazed at some of the questions I see here. The answer I gave reflected that.
> ...




I just don't feel these questions can be answered by anyone else.


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## pbelarge (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> I just don't feel these questions can be answered by anyone else.


 
Your response shows exactly what I have been saying. 
You think that if you cannot answer the question, nobody else could because you are the "gift to the photography world".
Simply take off the blinders, come down from the throne, and realize there are so many who are more intelligent than you. When you are able to do so, you will not make such pretentious remarks.


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't feel these questions can be answered by anyone else.
> ...



Sorry, again, you misinterpreted. What I meant was that the agreement was entirely arbitrary. You can do what you want. There is no guidance to be had. It is a unique situation. Ad hoc. Do you know what ad hoc means?

He agreed to do the work at no charge in return for some other compensation, etc. Why is he asking for advice _now? _That was part of my point. Things to consider include the potential sales volumes, etc., which we would have no idea of.

In short, there are to many things that go into this to give an answer in a forum situation. Part of it is that he has already decided to do the work gratis....

I don't think a commercial photographer would approach it this way. There is speculation involved, in a way.


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## pbelarge (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Sorry, again, you misinterpreted. What I meant was that the agreement was entirely arbitrary. You can do what you want. There is no guidance to be had. It is a unique situation. Ad hoc. Do you know what ad hoc means?
> 
> He agreed to do the work at no charge in return for some other compensation, etc. Why is he asking for advice _now? _That was part of my point. Things to consider include the potential sales volumes, etc., which we would have no idea of.


 

It was not misinterpretation on my part, it was a poorly worded response on your part, which you have a distinctly strong propensity to do.


This part of your response is much more what people here expect. We are not saying anyone here has to agree with another poster, but to provide an answer that has some insight.
How hard would it be for you to have stated this the first time?

Remember what the other Pierre mentioned before, and try to keep that in your mind when responding to posts.

"_its dimwitted replys like this that not only make you look like a turd, but damage the rep of the website_"


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, again, you misinterpreted. What I meant was that the agreement was entirely arbitrary. You can do what you want. There is no guidance to be had. It is a unique situation. Ad hoc. Do you know what ad hoc means?
> ...



OK, well I thought this was _obvious_...


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## bigtwinky (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Sorry, again, you misinterpreted. What I meant was that the agreement was entirely arbitrary. You can do what you want. There is no guidance to be had. It is a unique situation. Ad hoc. Do you know what ad hoc means?


 
Unique situation?  bs.  
Wedding photographer doing weddings, selling wedding images.  Does their first commercial shoot, had initial arrangements with 1 client, and then the 1 client wants more and a second client steps in.  You think that is unique? 

If you have never been through the situation, fine.  That does not mean that others have not.  I agree that each situation is different, but getting answers as to what others have done often helps in guiding one's decisions and using their experience and knowledge to help guide your own.

I use the term ad hoc as impromptu, random.  I have scheduled appointments and I can have adhoc appointments, walkins type of thing.  One of type of things.

I agree that the OPs situation is ad hoc for them, it is random, something they didn't plan for.  But I dont believe this is an ad hoc situation for everyone, hence the OP already getting a good reply from oldmacman.

We implemented a new system at work.  Online recruiting.  We have never done it.  While our company is unique, we found other companies who went through the same thing and discussed what they did,  how they did it, why they did it.  While they had their own reasons that we may or may not agree with, getting their insight was instrumental in putting together our strategy.

And even if it was totally unique situation that will never happen to them or anyone ever again, what is the harm in asking a group of photographers for their input on how to handle the situation?  When faced with the unknown, I guess we should all just learn to deal with it on our own instead of seeking input from others??


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## Petraio Prime (Jul 19, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, again, you misinterpreted. What I meant was that the agreement was entirely arbitrary. You can do what you want. There is no guidance to be had. It is a unique situation. Ad hoc. Do you know what ad hoc means?
> ...



I just thought it odd he asked for advice _after _he had already made the agreement. If he had asked here beforehand it would have made more sense. That was my point. Fair enough? Wedding photographers don't take all their photos on speculation, of course, and then hope to sell them. So, that's what struck me as odd.


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## flashfiles (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > Petraio Prime said:
> ...



That seems logical.


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## bigtwinky (Jul 19, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > Petraio Prime said:
> ...


 
I guess you read his thread quickly.

He discussed, agreed to terms (10-16 images on the wall, split the money if they sell minus the printing fees).  Granted, he should of known the price to charge then.

But then the client wants more...for use on his website.  This was not part of the original deal that the OP made, this was requested after.  So he wonders whats the best way to handle this.  There are varying opinions (charge him for them, dont charge and get traffic to your site, charge somewhat...), but this is what the OP wants.

Then, on top of that first deviation to the original agreement, the company that makes these things ALSO wants images... so again, how best to approach that situation.

So yeah, he should of settled the pricing of the prints with the original client first and had that in the contract.  But there are still two other deviations to be delt with.


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## Mike_E (Jul 19, 2010)

I take the ignore off and Hey, Ho Pedo!  You've gone and hijacked another thread by making it about yourself.

Sir, counseling is sometimes a good thing.  You needn't go through the rest of your life burdened by so many issues.  I implore you to seek and accept help, no one should have to be so miserable.


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## KmH (Jul 19, 2010)

Hotelsincarmel said:


> * Lastly, the manufacture of the brew tanks now want to buy the photos for there web site and I have no Idea what to charge them.
> I have 50 very good edited pictures of brew tanks. Should I sell them to the tank company as a lot? Or should I price the individual pictures? What should I charge?
> 
> All suggestions and advise are greatly appreciated.


You charge for them just like you would any other regular commercial client, by the image and the use. The pricing model is very different from retail pricing (weddings/portraiture).

You sell them a use license that specifies web use only and for a specific period of time.

The size they want to use them at on the web site has a bearing on the per photo cost as does the time period they want the use to run usually 1-5 years. If they decide they want to use them in some other way(s), they would need to purchase a different use license from you for the additional use(s)

For pricing commmercial photogaphy many use software like fotoQuote Pro 6 fotoQuote Pro ? Stock and Assignment Photography Pricing Guide

Visit www.asmp.org (American Society of Media Photographers) and at the left of their home page click on "Business Resources" for both pricing and use licensing guides.

Typical pricing for stock brewery tank images, listed as RM (Rights-Managed):

*Advertising*​ 
Brochure, inside (up to 5,000) - $615
Brochure, cover (up to 5,000) - $920
Print Ad (up to 1/4 page) - $755
Indoor display (small, 1 only, up to 1/2 display) - $770
Outdoor display (small, 1 only, up to 1/2 display) - $1665​ 
*Publishing*​ 
Editorial Web (400 px, up to 3 mo) - $35
Editorial magazine interior (up to 25,000, 1/4 page) - $215
Editorial newspaper (up to 50,000, 1/4 page) - $140
Textbook (up to 10,000, 1/4 page) - $185​ 
*Online*​ 
Web or Email (400 px, up to 3 months) - $35
Web or Email (640 px, up to 3 months) - $50
Mobil application - $75.00​


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 19, 2010)

Can we please ignore PP. His contributions rarely are of any interest. Let's just ignore him. By responding to him you are just fueling his lunacy and taking away from the OP's thread because most sane people will avoid threads like this. Which is exactly what I was going to do.

But I do like the OP's question and think quite a few members can learn something here soI'll ignore the lunatic.


Now, on to the OP.


Sounds like a nice deal to me. But I have to ask: how much experience do you have with art photography? I don't mean to be insulting or demeaning but there's a huge difference from retail photography to art photography. I have worked in both retail, commercial and art and although there can be creativity (there should be actually, lol) in both retail and commercial work, it is quite a different world.

For example, an art print that size I would not sell for less than $4-500, unframed, and would add to the price depending on the commission the gallery takes. But they would have to be signed and numbered. In the art world there is no such thing as a 2 or 300 run of any image.

However, in a situation like this (dependant of course on your market value as an artist) I may prefer to just do and sell posters. And sell those for $20-25. Maybe selling signed ones for 2 or 3 times as much depending on your reputation in the community as a photog.

Big difference in price but you probably would make more money from the posters than from the art prints if this brewery does tours, has a nice gift shop/tasting room like a micro brewery I once did work for. My work was for their annual report so it wasn't for sale in the gift shop but they sold posters there from an ad campaign for a beer that got quite a bit of media attention. And the posters sold very well.

Your second question would best be answered by looking at one of the pro-photogs organizations' websites. There are lots of variables involved in calculating usage rates and you need to consider them all. You also need a solid usage contract to spell out exactly what you are selling for how much.

I wouldn't put much value on the link to your website. Don't get me wrong, I would make it part of the contract if possible but, let's be honest, how many portrait or wedding customers do you really expect to get from a brewery website?

Your third question, I have just answered partly. Again, you need to look at all the variables, have a solid contract spelling out exactly what you are, etc. Selling batches of photos usually will pay less per photo than selling individuals. You also need to make sure that your contracts with the brewery and the tank company jive with each other.

As I said, it sounds like it could be a good deal but you need to do some serious research and thinking quickly. Good luck to you.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 19, 2010)

And btw, if you were to go the poster way, that does not mean you can't also sell limited edition art prints at the same time. If this brewery has a nice gift shop where the posters are sold, make sure you can hang at least one nicely framed art print somewhere in there and make sure the visitors know they are available for buying. You never know.


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## KmH (Jul 19, 2010)

And as far as pricing fine art photography:

Fine Art Nature Photography


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## AverageJoe (Jul 19, 2010)

I would charge how much I always charge:

Cost do due said work + how much beyond that I think my client would pay.

And depending on how much maintenance is required (i.e. if I build a website for someone and they want to change it every so often) I would raise or lower my price accordingly.

Maybe that helps.  But the real answer is you do it for free in exchange for a bottomless lifetime mug.


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## KmH (Jul 19, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Can we please ignore PP. His contributions rarely are of any interest.


+1 (Consider use of the quite effective, User CP - Ignore List feature.)

To paraphrase Joshua (WOPER), the computer in the hit 1983 movie, _*War Games  *_:



> "The only winning move is, not to play."


 
Now, if the rest of you would stop quoting the twaddle...........


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## epatsellis (Jul 20, 2010)

An interesting question and CC, an interesting and well thought out response. Since I actually do both commercial and fine art work, maybe I have a skewed perspective, but to me it seems as though on the surface, it's a reasonable arrangement, but then again, the brewery takes no risk, has no cost and gets free artwork to fill a space and the shooter sets a precedent of willing to work for no creative costs. (and not a good precedent)

What if, and this is directed at the OP, I had a couple approach me about a wedding, I charge them nothing for the entire shoot, and mark up print and album sales just 100%? 

Now what if I did this in your market, and advertised no up front costs, pay only for what you want, or not at all???? How do you think this would impact your profitability in that market? Would you be able to compete, be profitable and still pay your bills? These are some of the things that are easily forgotten when we approach any work outside our usual specialties, I realize it's not intentional, and you're far from the only person doing it, but it's one of my hot buttons. No matter what you price your prints and work at, there will always be somebody hungrier than you and willing to work for less, I've seen people give days of work away for the "opportunity" at a future project. I have a fortune invested in equipment, while every other shooter in the area at best can round up one or two monolights, I maintain a 5 pack, 12 head broncolor system just for commercial and location work. It's far from cheap (a flashtube cost more than an entire Einstein), but it's proven itself through the years. The same extends to other equipment, anything mission critical has a backup (or two, three...). It's expensive, but I have to be able to show up on location, shoot what needs to be shot and get the images, regardless of whether I can use available light or need 8,000 w/s. In order to support this type of infrastructure, my fees aren't cheap, but image quality is world class and that's what the customer pays for. 


As a commercial photographer, I charge both a creative fee and a usage/licensing fee. Even my fine art prints are not "inexpensive" by any stretch, starting at $225 for a mounted 16x20 open edition (most are quite a bit higher, even for open editions. These are after gallery, net to me prices). My guess is that they talked to some commercial shooters and were blown away by how expensive it is, and you happened to catch the right person at the right time. Whatever you price them at, ask yourself if you can sustain that price point, there will other shots they will want, and since they got you for free the first time, guess what they're expecting to pay?


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