# "Legal" Question



## Oly53 (Sep 20, 2010)

Alright. Here's the situation:

I was taking pictures at a High School Volleyball tournament. With the schools yearbook camera. I took pictures of the team in general, and then a couple of the coach. 

I took the camera home, downloaded the pictures onto my computer and then put a few of them on my personal Facebook. 

I get told by the yearbook advisor that I am not allowed to do this. And that I may face consequences. I talk to a higher up and she says that I should just take them down. Which I have done until I find out what's actually the law. I was also told by her that I could not put them up even if I took my own camera there, and took pictures myself, because I could "be sued". 

These are pictures of the teacher (coach) and the team in general, as I said. This was at a public high school, at an event that was open to the public. I was not using any images for commercial use, just to have on there (facebook) as a "gallery" of my pictures. 

Thoughts? Advice? If you can help at all, I'd appreciate it. Also, any sources you have on the matter would be helpful as well. Before I forget, this is in Illinois. (That might be important..haha.)


----------



## Robin Usagani (Sep 20, 2010)

Thats ridiculous!  Tell them to put NO CAMERA IS ALLOWED sign at the front LOL.  I dont understand why you cant do that.


----------



## Oly53 (Sep 20, 2010)

The tournament was at a different school. And other people were taking pictures as well. This is just an administrator at my school telling me I "can't" do this. So, cameras were allowed. Just to clarify.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Sep 20, 2010)

I know cameras are allowed.  I was just making fun of why they are giving you a hard time.  Unless the coaches are at home in their own houses, you can take their pictures.


----------



## Oly53 (Sep 20, 2010)

Haha. Alright. I was just trying to be as clear as I could. 

See, that's what I thought as well. But I just wasn't sure.


----------



## KmH (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes you can take their pictures. The question is what you can (or can't) do with them after they are taken.

Since you were using the school's yearbook camera, work-for-hire rules may apply and the school may own the copyright to all the photos you took.

If they do, yes, you could be sued.

As for sources, visit:

www.copyright.gov

Are you of minor age: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-who.html#minor

*Can a minor claim copyright?*
Minors may claim copyright, and the Copyright Office issues registrations to minors, but state laws may regulate the business dealings involving copyrights owned by minors. For information on relevant state laws, consult an attorney. 

Then you'll need to seek legal counsel there in Illinois.

As far as 'work for hire': http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html#made_for_hire

*What is a work made for hire?*
Although the general rule is that the person who creates the work is its author, there is an exception to that principle; the exception is a work made for hire, which is a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or a work specially ordered or commissioned in certain specified circumstances. When a work qualifies as a work made for hire, the employer, or commissioning party, is considered to be the author. See Circular 9, _Work-Made-For-Hire Under the 1976 Copyright Act_. 

So click on the link and study Circular 9, closely.


----------



## skieur (Sep 20, 2010)

If you were working on the yearbook as a student, then it was NOT a work for hire, since you were not being paid, and whether you were using the school camera is irrelevant.

As the photographer you are the first owner of copyright under the law, and the situation as you described it, does not change that premise.  Although the school may not want school activity photos on a social network, they cannot claim any copyright, assuming you have provided the complete story of the affair.  

Since the photos were apparently taken with school permission in a public place of an education-related sports activity, there would seem to be no legal grounds for a law suit from anyone.

skieur


----------



## oldmacman (Sep 20, 2010)

It doesn't sound like a copyright issue, but more like policies. Different schools boards have different rules for images taken of kids while participating in school activities. At the school board I work for, it is a negative policy. This means that all students are considered okay to publish to school web sites, newspapers etc unless a parent has explicitly written the school board to indicate otherwise. My own kids are in a different school board because I commute about 45 minutes to work. Their board requires all parent to submit a form indicating that it is ok to use any pictures that may be taken of their child. In Canada, it is all about the "safe schools" act and protecting students from predators.

Edit: forgot to mention, that as a student you're not necessarily privy to who has allowed and who has disallowed images of their children being posted outside the school.


----------



## skieur (Sep 20, 2010)

oldmacman said:


> It doesn't sound like a copyright issue, but more like policies. Different schools boards have different rules for images taken of kids while participating in school activities. At the school board I work for, it is a negative policy. This means that all students are considered okay to publish to school web sites, newspapers etc unless a parent has explicitly written the school board to indicate otherwise. My own kids are in a different school board because I commute about 45 minutes to work. Their board requires all parent to submit a form indicating that it is ok to use any pictures that may be taken of their child. In Canada, it is all about the "safe schools" act and protecting students from predators.
> 
> Edit: forgot to mention, that as a student you're not necessarily privy to who has allowed and who has disallowed images of their children being posted outside the school.


 
I still think that a student could NOT be sued for not being aware of, or not following school policy, since I doubt that school policy has any legal standing outside the school.  Moreover any liability if there was any, would more likely be with the school rather than the student.

skieur


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 20, 2010)

It sounds more like paranoia on the part of the faculty than anything else...

OMG!  Pictures of teenagers ... online!!  We must put an end to this!


----------



## Josh66 (Sep 20, 2010)

oldmacman said:


> It doesn't sound like a copyright issue, but more like policies. Different schools boards have different rules for images taken of kids while participating in school activities. At the school board I work for, it is a negative policy. This means that all students are considered okay to publish to school web sites, newspapers etc unless a parent has explicitly written the school board to indicate otherwise. My own kids are in a different school board because I commute about 45 minutes to work. Their board requires all parent to submit a form indicating that it is ok to use any pictures that may be taken of their child. In Canada, it is all about the "safe schools" act and protecting students from predators.
> 
> Edit: forgot to mention, that as a student you're not necessarily privy to who has allowed and who has disallowed images of their children being posted outside the school.


That sounds more like a model release than anything else...

I know that somewhere in the fine print I signed when I hired on to my job, it says something to the same effect...  That they can take pictures of me at work and do whatever they want with them.

It doesn't sound like that is stopping anyone from taking their pictures, it is just allowing the school to do whatever they want with them.


----------



## Oly53 (Sep 20, 2010)

I was not paid, so work for hire is not the case. Also, it's more of a "can they make me take them down" or "face consequences" deal than anything else. 

I mean, had the person in question asked me to take them down, I would have. But no, they decide to make an attempt to escalate the situation when it wasn't needed.

Also, for clarification. It's not the STUDENT pictures they have a problem with. It's the few of the faculty member.


----------



## skieur (Sep 21, 2010)

They are demanding that you take them down because.......................

skieur


----------



## Village Idiot (Sep 21, 2010)

Unless there was a contract that stated "work for hire", then the photos are yours. 

Leave them up. You're not using them commercially or for profit, you're using them in an editorial fashion to show the story of the game. At least, that's the story you should stick to. If the school wants to punish you, threaten envolvement of lawyers.


----------



## rmpbklyn (Sep 21, 2010)

were other students or parents etc harassed to remove their photos?

 1) they gave you the camera, 2) you did not sign a contract (???) and did not take monies and 3) the pictures would not be considered (...hmmm ) portraying minors in slanderous way?


----------



## HeadshotLondon (Sep 27, 2010)

I think that is not allowed. Once you take a picture. It is yours under UK law and copyright for that picture belongs to you. You are not allowed to sell the picture without person's permission if you could see that person's face on the picture. Basically, do not listen to anyone and don&#8217;t get bullied. The photos are yours, the event was open event and the camera was yours. Just sent them a link to LAW on that matter if they will continue being mean On the other hand you could just be nice and if they are nice then just respect their wishes knowing the law is behind you. Case closed


----------



## DennyCrane (Sep 27, 2010)

I think it will boil down to this... They can dictate what their camera  is used for. Yes, you might fight it and win... based on the  photographer being the copyright owner, but this will put you in an  adversarial position with your school... and that's not a cool place to  be. You're looking to get an education, get some good grades, and  graduate there, right? You could win the battle and lose the war. Their  camera, let them have their rules. Smile, take a big bite of the poop  sammich and move on. 

However, they are entirely wrong in saying you cannot take pictures with  your own camera. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy at a  school sporting event that's open to the public. I presume there was no  sign saying "No Photography".

I would take the pictures down as requested, and if you want, take all  the pictures you want with your own camera. But, I would not let on to  them you're doing that. You're in the right in doing so, but I wouldn't  do anything to make waves with these people... like I said, you're  looking to get an education from them.

And as always, remember- I'm not an attorney, I just played one on TV.


----------



## skieur (Sep 27, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> I think it will boil down to this... They can dictate what their camera is used for. Yes, you might fight it and win... based on the photographer being the copyright owner, but this will put you in an adversarial position with your school... and that's not a cool place to be. You're looking to get an education, get some good grades, and graduate there, right? You could win the battle and lose the war. Their camera, let them have their rules. Smile, take a big bite of the poop sammich and move on.
> 
> However, they are entirely wrong in saying you cannot take pictures with your own camera. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy at a school sporting event that's open to the public. I presume there was no sign saying "No Photography".
> 
> ...


 
Ownership of the camera is TOTALLY irrelevant.

skieur


----------



## DennyCrane (Sep 27, 2010)

...and? 

As I already stated, the person could probably fight and win, and in doing so, alienate the people providing his education. Winning the battle and losing the war.


----------



## table1349 (Sep 27, 2010)

Oly53 said:


> Alright. Here's the situation:
> 
> I was taking pictures at a High School Volleyball tournament. With the schools yearbook camera. I took pictures of the team in general, and then a couple of the coach.
> 
> ...



Do yourself a favor and consult a real attorney.  If you take your legal advise from here this could well be you. http://www.stus.com/images/products/cartoon.gif


----------



## skieur (Sep 27, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Oly53 said:
> 
> 
> > Alright. Here's the situation:
> ...


----------



## ghpham (Sep 28, 2010)

A public school is not necessarily public property.  Check with an attorney and the school board on their policies.


----------



## skieur (Sep 28, 2010)

ghpham said:


> A public school is not necessarily public property. Check with an attorney and the school board on their policies.


 
A public school is a public place and don"t confuse school board policy and the law.  They are two different things.  You cannot be sued for violating school policy.

skieur


----------



## RobWyse (Sep 28, 2010)

skieur said:


> ghpham said:
> 
> 
> > A public school is not necessarily public property. Check with an attorney and the school board on their policies.
> ...


Public place is not the same as public property. A pub is a public place, yet you can be prevented from taking photos there, it's a private property. The footpath running down the street outside the pub is also a public place, and you are free to take photos as you like there, as it is also public property.


----------



## JohnMF (Sep 28, 2010)

have you asked them why they want you to take them down? What rules/laws you have broken? And, what their "serious consequences" are?

That is where you need to start.


----------



## skieur (Sep 28, 2010)

RobWyse said:


> skieur said:
> 
> 
> > ghpham said:
> ...


 
When it comes to a public place that is private property, unless there are signs to the contrary, you can take photos until told otherwise and still publish the photos you have already taken.

skieur


----------



## LokiZ (Sep 28, 2010)

I think that the coach is part of the witless protection agency.  He should have known better then to become a coach, should have become a librarian biding his time down in the stacks being at one with the Dewey Decimal System. Much less press. 

But seriously the more one hears on this the more one ponders on the character of the coach.  What past sleeps dormant?  What secrets hide in the shadows.  Sounds like a good after school special if you ask me but alas it does not look like the school or coach will be letting that happen. 

Once again I have to add my vote to what Skieur has pointed out.  But it would be interesting to hear the why behind all of this fuss.


----------



## DennyCrane (Sep 28, 2010)

LokiZ said:


> I think that the coach is part of the witless protection agency.  He should have known better then to become a coach, should have become a librarian biding his time down in the stacks being at one with the Dewey Decimal System. Much less press.
> 
> But seriously the more one hears on this the more one ponders on the character of the coach.  What past sleeps dormant?  What secrets hide in the shadows.  Sounds like a good after school special if you ask me but alas it does not look like the school or coach will be letting that happen.
> 
> Once again I have to add my vote to what Skieur has pointed out.  But it would be interesting to hear the why behind all of this fuss.


Ummm... the coach? Where does the coach factor into this? It was the yearbook advisor. You might want to read the first post in this thread.


----------



## LokiZ (Sep 28, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> LokiZ said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the coach is part of the witless protection agency.  He should have known better then to become a coach, should have become a librarian biding his time down in the stacks being at one with the Dewey Decimal System. Much less press.
> ...


Ummm... Reading post #1 and #12 the coach also is the equivalent to "the faculty member" for which the yearbook advisor is referring to according to the OP when it comes to what apparently fell outside the lines of conduct for the student.  There is just as much chance that yearbook advisor was approached by someone as opposed to the advisor acting on their own.  With the information we were given that leaves alot to the imagination.

edit: It seems to be the OP's opinon in post #12, as far as I can tell, that "the facility member" had some role in yearbook advisor approaching the student.

But evidently you saw my post as completely serious. If you want my serious opinion read those posts siding with the op as doing nothing wrong and watch me nod my head in agreement.


----------

