# Is this fake? Need direction if not



## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

I received an email through Flickr with the following. I am leery well because you have to be on the Internet. But they sent a 2nd message clarifying the right image, something I don't think most scammers would do.
Hi there, 

I was just enquiring as to whether the below image is available for sale? i.e. would you consider selling it and providing a high res image - the usage is for an internal booklet for our client Vodafone. 

many thanks,

Moon Communications
moon.com.au​

This is the picture - https://www.flickr.com/photos/moregone/11413706875/sizes/h/in/photostream/


But I think I am stuck anyways because I do not have a model release. The picture was taken at True Music Festival

I haven't replied yet as I have never sold an image like this. Just to people of themselves. 

Thoughts?


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 29, 2014)

It's entirely likely that it's real.  I get emails like this fairly often via flickr.   If you don't have a release however the right thing to do is let them know that you can't sell it without a release.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Thanks for the quick reply. 

I will have to look and see if maybe they tagged themselves on facebook in the gallery or something.


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## Overread (Apr 29, 2014)

Also do a search on Moon company and find out what you can about them. At the same time get the name of the person you're dealing with on flickr; then contact Moon direct and ask to talk to that person. If the company is legit and its a legit claim its a good way to get verification.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Overread said:


> Also do a search on Moon company and find out what you can about them. At the same time get the name of the person you're dealing with on flickr; then contact Moon direct and ask to talk to that person. If the company is legit and its a legit claim its a good way to get verification.



I have the name I just opted to not post it out of respect for privacy.

The website for them is very bare bones, like 2 pages total. I am going to do some more digging. Thanks for the tips


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 29, 2014)

I was thinking something similar to what Overread said, to look up the company, and I'd look up the client. Since the website is as you described I'd wonder if they're trying to find a photo on a small budget; I think  .au  is Australia. 

I agree, I'd say it isn't for sale (you don't have a release).


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

No point in not trying. 

I was shooting this for the newspaper so I may have a lead on the names in my notes since I have to caption the photos. Also wouldn't hurt to see if anyone recognizes them locally.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Yep I am on to something, I've got a contact to follow up with from a like on my facebook album


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## sm4him (Apr 29, 2014)

MOREGONE said:


> No point in not trying.
> 
> I was shooting this for the newspaper so I may have a lead on the names in my notes since I have to caption the photos. Also wouldn't hurt to see if anyone recognizes them locally.



Tracking down these leads, finding names and THEN trying to get model releases from them seems to me like an awful lot of work when you don't even know how legit the request is, and assuming it's legit, how much they're even willing to pay for the photo.
I think I'd make contact and say that you'd be willing to sell the use of the photo IF you can get releases signed, and see if you can get some idea of what they're willing to PAY before I put out much effort into actually getting the releases.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

sm4him said:


> MOREGONE said:
> 
> 
> > No point in not trying.
> ...



Sorry but I completely disagree...

"Dear potential client, I come with a lot of baggage before the ball even gets rolling, but hey if you are still interested in dealing with me and said baggage I could maybe figure out the rest"

Sounds like a poor business approach. I'm not allergic to work, and it's hardly much effort lol being put out. A couple FB blast "hey Do you know these girls?". You've got about as much work into the response you just gave as I do in hunting down these girls.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Anyone have some resources on contracts for transactions like this? Things I need to consider? I am a member of the PPA. I will see what they have for me.

I am also going to research pricing. Sure this may never pan out, but this is a learning experience and it will help me with the Next one


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 29, 2014)

Doesn't the newspaper have you get names when you take photos? (for their captions, although the paper may not always use them) I see now you said you may have their names in your notes, but since shooting for the paper is editorial use a release is not usually necessary for that purpose.

The guideline for usage for retail or commercial purposes (selling/licensing) is that if the subject is recognizable you need a release. If you license usage to someone in another country (or maybe even in the US for that matter) that photo could end up who knows where so I'd make sure your ass is covered - in the future get names and releases signed if you think you may want to use someone's photo later on. 

American Society of Media Photographers Has a pocket release and an app.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 29, 2014)

Sounds like you've got some homework to do - you don't want to end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit waiting to happen. Yes I think PPA would have info.; I've used resources from ASMP. They have info. on contracts etc. for photographers. I got a book by Tad Crawford I found thru them that has sample forms, and have taken a couple of webinars thru them (called Business as UnUsual I think), on various topics.


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## MOREGONE (Apr 29, 2014)

Yes, I do have to caption the photos with 3 or less people in them. I already referenced the materials on the newspapers website and I did not publish that image so it is likely I do not have their information in my notes. But I will have to wait until I get home to look into that more.

the ASMP app is for iOS only. I will look for an Android alternative. 

I don't fear ending up in a law suit because at the end of the day I will not be doing anything wrong. If I can't obtain the model release its dead in the water. However it is surprising to see people suggesting walking away before even trying.


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## MOREGONE (May 2, 2014)

I have found the girls!!!

Does anyone have any electronic way to send and have clients sign a model release? I have found smart phone apps but looking to do this remotely and conveniently. 

Thanks


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## Scatterbrained (May 2, 2014)

Why not email them?  Have the girls print, sign, and scan the releases to send back to you.


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## MOREGONE (May 2, 2014)

For convenience, going green, because it's 2014...


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## vfotog (May 4, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> Why not email them?  Have the girls print, sign, and scan the releases to send back to you.



of course, you want to verify that they aren't minors and old enough to sign releases...  and get copies of their IDs just in case.


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## Steve5D (May 5, 2014)

I actually own Vodaone stock; totally legit company.

I was contacted once like this regarding a photo I'd taken of a Siberian Lynx. The original e-mail and, in fact, a follow up e-mail didn't mention the client name. When I made it clear that I wouldn't sell the image without knowing who the client was, they relented. It was Apple.

That was a nice payday...


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## pixmedic (May 5, 2014)

MOREGONE said:


> I have found the girls!!!
> 
> Does anyone have any electronic way to send and have clients sign a model release? I have found smart phone apps but looking to do this remotely and conveniently.
> 
> Thanks



My wife uses an app on her android tablet for people to sign and email back to her...I'll try and find out what the name is. On shift today so...might be a while, sorry. Works great though.


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## Rwsphotos (May 6, 2014)

Echo Sign   allows you to send a client forms or contracts to view and sign electronically.  You can see  when the document has been read and when it has been signed.  It will also email both you and them a copy of the electronically signed document.


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## W.Fovall (May 6, 2014)

you don't need a release from the people if they are in public, you can sell it just fine without.. only restriction is you cant create a company logo with it. 





MOREGONE said:


> I received an email through Flickr with the following. I am leery well because you have to be on the Internet. But they sent a 2nd message clarifying the right image, something I don't think most scammers would do. Hi there,
> 
> I was just enquiring as to whether the below image is available for sale? i.e. would you consider selling it and providing a high res image - the usage is for an internal booklet for our client Vodafone.
> 
> ...


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## Steve5D (May 7, 2014)

W.Fovall said:


> you don't need a release from the people if they are in public, you can sell it just fine without.. only restriction is you cant create a company logo with it.



Yeah, that's not even approaching anything accurate.

But I'm always willing to learn. Can you provide a reference which would indicate that it's perfectly permissible for me to sell a photo I took of you to a third party, and then that it's perfectly permissible for that third party to use that photo of you in, say, an ad campaign, all without your permission?

I'd really love to see that...


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## Jamesaz (May 9, 2014)

If you were shooting for a newspaper, is it work for hire? If so, you don't own it, the paper does.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## W.Fovall (May 9, 2014)

Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page 








Steve5D said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> > you don't need a release from the people if they are in public, you can sell it just fine without.. only restriction is you cant create a company logo with it.
> ...


its not complicated.. your photos are yours to sell for any reason you want. very few restrictions.. newspapers publish pictures of people every day on millions of papers..


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## W.Fovall (May 9, 2014)

depends on contracts.. without a contract everything belongs to the artist 





Jamesaz said:


> If you were shooting for a newspaper, is it work for hire? If so, you don't own it, the paper does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## W.Fovall (May 9, 2014)

a inner office book is not endorsing a product so its perfectly legal. Its just art on a page. if the girls were wearing ray ban sunglasses then you couldn't sell it to ray ban to endorse ray bans..


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## danielklaer (May 9, 2014)

W.Fovall said:


> its not complicated.. your photos are yours to sell for any reason you want. very few restrictions.. newspapers publish pictures of people every day on millions of papers..



Matt is great. Thanks for sharing that, it was a good watch.

In terms of the op it does sound though like the image is wanted for commercial purposes and so model releases would be needed in this case.


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## W.Fovall (May 9, 2014)

danielklaer said:


> [ Matt is great, thanks for sharing that was a good watch.
> 
> In terms of the op it does sound though like the image is wanted for commercial purposes and so model releases would be needed.



if its just for a pamphlet and not endorsing a specific product it should be fine..


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## danielklaer (May 9, 2014)

Hmm I had thought a pamphlet would come under the advertising banner but I guess it depends what it is.


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## W.Fovall (May 9, 2014)

danielklaer said:


> Hmm I had thought a pamphlet would come under the advertising banner but I guess it depends what it is.



depends what the content is, didn't sound like it is being used to sell anything.  could be just a flyer telling the employees to come to the bbq party next month for all we know.. just sell it to them with a non advertising acknowledgement contract.


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## vfotog (May 14, 2014)

W.Fovall said:


> you don't need a release from the people if they are in public, you can sell it just fine without.. only restriction is you cant create a company logo with it.



Wow, this is absolutely wrong. Please cite a law anywhere that specifically mentions creating a company logo. Anywhere. A logo? One of the strangest pieces of bad legal advice I've ever seen. :thumbdown:


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## vfotog (May 14, 2014)

W.Fovall said:


> its not complicated.. your photos are yours to sell for any reason you want. very few restrictions.. newspapers publish pictures of people every day on millions of papers..



you have a fundamental misunderstanding on this. newspaper photography is EDITORIAL, *NOT *COMMERCIAL. PLEASE do some reading before you post any more really incorrect advice.


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## Steve5D (May 14, 2014)

W.Fovall said:


> Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. I don't think you could be more wrong if you were being paid for it.

When a newspaper publishes a photo, it's editorial use, not commercial use.

You're doling out some extraordinarily bad advice here...


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

Cut the **** you two.


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## vfotog (May 14, 2014)

runnah said:


> Cut the **** you two.



Can't imagine what you see wrong with Steve5D's posts. W.Fovall has posted "advice" that is utterly incorrect. Now he's name-calling. I hope absolutely no one follows his advice unless they have money to burn on lawyers.


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## mishele (May 14, 2014)

Alright, you guys need to go play somewhere else. Anything else, the thread is closed and infractions handed out.


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## runnah (May 14, 2014)

vfotog said:


> Can't imagine what you see wrong with Steve5D's posts. W.Fovall has posted "advice" that is utterly incorrect. Now he's name-calling. I hope absolutely no one follows his advice unless they have money to burn on lawyers.



I am saying drop it. Name calling is juvenile and does nothing to help anyone's point. If it can't be discussed like adults then leave it alone. If anyone has issue with what someone posts, report it.

Lastly, right or wrong, getting legal advice from  an online forum is ludacris.


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## W.Fovall (May 14, 2014)

notice how the opposition provides no documentation on there facts...


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## mishele (May 14, 2014)

Enjoy the rest of your evening.


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