# What happens if I use colour negatives?



## ahelg (Jan 9, 2007)

I was just wondering what would happen if I put a colour negative in an enlarger and print it onto black and white paper. Would I get an ok black and white print or would it come out bad.


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## ladyphotog (Jan 9, 2007)

It would be fine however you need to use higher contrast because of the color base. It usually takes a longer exposure time as well.


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## ksmattfish (Jan 9, 2007)

I've found that the grain seems a lot more pronounced in BW than color.  When I shot weddings with film I'd occasionally get a client that wanted a color shot printed BW.  It can be done if you have to, but the results aren't always as nice as just starting with BW film.


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## ahelg (Jan 9, 2007)

Well that's good to know. I have some shoots back home in Norway which I took in Spain which I wanted to try in B&W.


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## ladyphotog (Jan 9, 2007)

To help with the grain you need to stop down your enlarger lens. You should get a nice print if you use some nice paper. It never failed every wedding I shot the bride wanted a color and b&w print of the same image. Your developer can help with the grain and contrast issue as well. Unfortunately you really have to experiment, it depends on the color film, the b&w paper and the developer you are using. You have to find the right combination.


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## Philip Weir (Jan 9, 2007)

If I may put in my two-pennies worth. To hold the tones correctly, you need to use Kodak's "Panalure" paper, but it's a bit fiddly using it, as you have to develop in complete darkness and use the time/temperature method. It's a panchromatic film rather than normal B&W paper being orthochromatic. With respect, "ladyphotog" how can stopping the lens down have any effect on the grain ?   Philip.
www.philipweirphotography.com


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## Christie Photo (Jan 9, 2007)

Philip Weir said:


> If I may put in my two-pennies worth. To hold the tones correctly, you need to use Kodak's "Panalure" paper, but it's a bit fiddly using it, as you have to develop in complete darkness and use the time/temperature method. It's a panchromatic film rather than normal B&W paper being orthochromatic. With respect, "ladyphotog" how can stopping the lens down have any effect on the grain ?   Philip.
> www.philipweirphotography.com



I agree....  but, I understand that Kodak ceased production of all their black and white papers.  Is there an Ilford equivalent?  Seems I used a safe-light with Panalure...  was it a Kodak no. 10?  It's a rather dense filter...  very dark.

I too wondered about the "stopping down" effort to reduce grain.  Can you tell us some more about your thoughts on this?

Pete


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## queen_of_scum (Jan 10, 2007)

Here are some prints I've made from colour negs on ordinary multi-grade b/w paper


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## ksmattfish (Jan 10, 2007)

If you are using multi-grade contrast paper variations in the subject color can affect contrast too, making some color negs easier to print than others.

When I said the grain seemed more pronounced, I didn't mean there actually was more or larger grain.  I just found the grain less noticable in a color print than in the BW prints.


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## Philip Weir (Jan 10, 2007)

ksmattfish said:


> If you are using multi-grade contrast paper variations in the subject color can affect contrast too, making some color negs easier to print than others.
> 
> When I said the grain seemed more pronounced, I didn't mean there actually was more or larger grain.  I just found the grain less noticable in a color print than in the BW prints.



You are exactly right, that's why I always hated doing prints from colour negs onto b&w paper.:lmao:


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## ksmattfish (Jan 11, 2007)

Philip Weir said:


> You are exactly right, that's why I always hated doing prints from colour negs onto b&w paper.:lmao:



Me too.  I disliked doing it, and the results disappointed me so much (although the clients were happy with them) I finally began telling clients that it wasn't possible for me to make BW gelatin silver prints from color negs.  If they wanted color and BW we were just going to have to schedule enough time to take some of each.


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## ladyphotog (Jan 15, 2007)

Philip Weir said:


> . With respect, "ladyphotog" how can stopping the lens down have any effect on the grain ?   Philip.
> www.philipweirphotography.com



Well, usually when you are printing color negs on b&w paper you have a long exposure time. Therefore, most will open up the lens to reduce that time. The appearance of grain is more pronounced with the lens wide open than at F-8, which is usually where the lens is at it's optimum. But it is worth it in the final print to stop down, preferably to F-8 and expose for whatever time is needed rather than open up and have a shorter exposure time.


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## Efergoh (Feb 19, 2007)

ladyphotog, I have to wave the BS banner here, sorry.

First of all, what grain? Color film has no silver. It is a dye. Yes, there is grain, but it is so fine that it is damned hard to see in a grain focuser, especially if you are printing smaller than 11x14.

Recently, just for $hits and grins, I processed C41 film in B&W chemicals, just to see if I could get a usable print. The orange mask was still on the film because I didn't bleach the it. I had to make very very long exposures in the enlarger (one was a 30 minute exposure) I was printing at 5.6 with a 5 filter. The light from the safe light was brighter than that which was hitting the paper. I had to turn off the safe lights during the exposure to keep my paper from getting fogged.

They still came out with a pretty low contrast, but I got good workable prints with nary any grain at all.

I will never again develop C41 in B&W chemestry again, but it can be done.

I've also printed C41 B&W film on B&W paper, and the results were beautiful. The absolute absence of grain makes for wonderfully intact prints on even the largest paper. So I'm still trying to figure out how a more open aperature on your enlarger will produce more prevelant grain with the grain level is determined by your film and the manner in which you develop.

I hope you can shed more light on this. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize, but I think you may be passing bum scoop.


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 19, 2007)

Let's clear up some misunderstandings and myths, shall we?
Colour neg film is called a 'tri pack' or 'multilayer'. It is three film layers on one film.
Each layer is a black and white film in it's own right and so will develop quite happily in B&W developers. In fact the developer in colour developer _is_ a B&W one.
The top layer is sensitive to blue light (b&w film is actually only blue sensitive in it's 'natural' state. Colour sensitizers are added to extend it's spectral sensitivity).
Then there is a yellow filter layer to stop blue light reaching the bottom layers.
Then there is a green sensitive layer.
Finally a red sensitive layer.
Exposing the film gives three colour seperation negs.
Built into each emulsion are colour couplers.
Development in _colour_ developer releases by-products which activate the colour couplers to produce dyes.
The blue sensitive layer produces yellow dye.
The green sensitive layer produces magenta dye.
The red sensitive layer produces cyan dye.
The silver is bleached out to leave the colour neg with the yellow filter layer.
Colour printing paper is balanced to compensate for the cast it produces.

Colour film does have grain - of a sort.
The colour couplers are physically associated with each silver grain. Development results in a spherical 'cloud' of dye centred on each silver crystal.
As these dye clouds are larger than the associated grain the resultant colour negative is actually grainier than the silver mask.
However, as the dye clouds are slightly fuzzy and overlap, as well as there being three layers of them, the effect of the increased graininess is lost.
This effect also results in colour neg images being slightly less sharp than the B&W equivalent.
Again, this is lost in printing because the eye is not so 'aware' of softness in a colour image whereas it will easily spot it in a B&W image.
Because the yellow filter layer remains in place, printing times on ordinary B&W paper are quite long (that's because it is not sensitive to red and orange light).
Panalure was a panchromatic B&W paper that was designed for printing with colour negs. I don't think there is an equivalent available these days.

As for EL lenses increasing grain: stopping down an enlarging lens reduces the illumination level and increases depth of field and depth of focus.
Longer exposures are required and increased DoF/DoFo covers any unevenness in neg and printing paper.
It does not have any effect on grain size.


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## Majik Imaje (Feb 19, 2007)

DOES NOT HAVE GRAIN. it has dye couplers! not the same thing or look

IF YOU WANT TO GET RID OF GRAIN... 

this is what I used to do with my images as they were being exposed 


lets say i am using a 10 second exposure time (enlarger)

I have a piece of saran wrap or zip lock baggie.. (big)

I will expose that piece of paper (on the easel) and when I have 2-3 seconds left on the time of exposure.. I would pick up that baggie or saran wrap and hold it under the enlarging lens and keep it moving
back and forth .

2 seconds.. sometimes + maybe.. check it out.

A very Exclusive Art Gallery that features the 10 BIGGEST NAMES  IN THE WORLD.. !!

were my clients. I worked one  on one with these famous artists.!

The owners of this gallery would often say to me.. 

how come your images "look like paintings" 


practice this trick and you will have people saying the same thing to you!


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