# Gun Bore Picture Techique DOF issues



## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

Looking for a better way to take picrtures of the bore of a rifle.  In rifle collecting, or sales the condition of the bore is a valuable thing to be able to accurately portray. In the attached picture, you can see enough of the bore in focus to get a good idea of what the rest is like, but I would love to get further in.  The problem is the DOF.  I'm really close up, so the DOF by nature is going to be narrow.  This was shot with a 28mm prime, at f/29.... and I still only got 1 inch in focus.

Is there something else I should be considering, or do I need to look into techniques like Focus Stacking to get any further with this type of image?

Thanks.


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## tyler_h (Jun 21, 2011)

Focus Stacking; or if you only need a small image, back up to increase your DoF and crop your image.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

tyler_h said:


> Focus Stacking; or if you only need a small image, back up to increase your DoF and crop your image.


On the surface the backing up is a fix.  In practice, its more difficult. The outside diameter of the barrel is just over 1/2". Backing up to a distance that affords any resobable DOF will make the crop so tight that image quality suffers pretty badly. Switching to a longer focal length is futile, since you are basically taking one step back to take one step forward. Those was my first thouht as well.  I tried them with disappointing results.


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## bogeyguy (Jun 21, 2011)

if the rifle is loaded or unloaded?


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## analog.universe (Jun 21, 2011)

It's this sort of situation that focus stacking was designed for, that was definitely what came to my mind first.


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## jake337 (Jun 21, 2011)

tilt-shift or focus stacking.  Do you use canon or nikon.  There are a few older nikon manual tilt lens for around $3-500.  They do not shift though.  I'm not quite sure which one is needed for product photography more tilt or shift or both.


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## Nod (Jun 21, 2011)

Is there some way to put a light source in the chamber ?  Or some high reflecting material so as to light the entire barrel ?


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## tyler_h (Jun 21, 2011)

Stradawhovious said:


> tyler_h said:
> 
> 
> > Focus Stacking; or if you only need a small image, back up to increase your DoF and crop your image.
> ...



Focus Stacking might have to be the way to go then. Works fairly well in my experience.

You can also move back to f/5.6-8 to get a sharper image too (even though it will take a bit longer in processing).


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2011)

Yep focus stacking time! Put that camera on a focusing rail and shift it a tiny bit closer for each shot (leave focus in the same place) before putting the series of shots into one of the programs below (the first is 100% free, whilst the second two have free limited time trials - there isn't one best option, but one might give an advantage over the others in select cases) 

I N D E X
Helicon Focus - extended depth of field, focus stacking, 3D visualization
stacker [Zerene Stacker]

If you don't have a focusing rail you can shift the focus for each shot as well without too much trouble.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

bogeyguy said:


> if the rifle is loaded or unloaded?


In order to get any kind of look at the condition of the bore, a light needs to be shining into the chamber. In order for light to come through the chamber, the action must be open, and the gun must be unloaded. Besides, I don't have a deathwish, or desire to replace my camera, interior wall, exterior wall, neighbors wall, or neighbor. None of my rifles are ever loaded unless I'm at the range or on the field. And yes, I checked three times.

I will admit this was fun to set up. Two speedlights. One from behind camera left, and one shining into the open chamber.


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## Ryan L (Jun 21, 2011)

Get a bore light and drop it down the barrel, or there is a product called a barrel-lite which loads in the chamber and uses whatever light source you want to put on it (might help with exposing the barrel correctly). Should illuminate it nicely


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

Overread said:


> Yep focus stacking time! Put that camera on a focusing rail and shift it a tiny bit closer for each shot



Thanks for the links!  I've been looking for a (personally) valid reason to try focus stacking for a while..... looks like I finally found it.

As far as a rail is concerned, it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to build one for a tripod mount........... (I'm certainly not going to purchase one.)  Any DIY links that people know of off the top of their head?  If not, I will have to wing it.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 21, 2011)

I did focus stacking, without a rail, just changing the focus ring, and using the free software mentioned. Try that first before you buy more equipment.


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## Overread (Jun 21, 2011)

Professional Macro Focusing Rail Slider 4-Way D-SLR DC | eBay UK

an example - focusing rail in ebay gives loads of results for the same product. If you can make it for less than that unit then you are doing well. Budget wise that is about the best on the market. If not by build, but rather by design. If you're going to build I'd suggest a similar design approach.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

Ryan L said:


> Get a bore light and drop it down the barrel, or there is a product called a barrel-lite which loads in the chamber and uses whatever light source you want to put on it (might help with exposing the barrel correctly). Should illuminate it nicely



Actually, the light at the end of the bore is coming from the chamber.  I would think that there is plenty of light just from the speedlight I have down at the other end.  With focus stacking I can back off the f stop, and get a much better exposure.

Good idea though, Never hurts to try!  I wonder if that barrel - light product coupled with a speedlight would be really effective, or really overkill.  Hmmmmmmm.......



Bitter Jeweler said:


> I did focus stacking, without a rail, just changing the focus ring, and using the free software mentioned. Try that first before you buy more equipment.



This will more than likely be my first try.....  I will post results when I get 20 minutes free of wedding planning and snot nosed bratty kids.



Overread said:


> Professional Macro Focusing Rail Slider 4-Way D-SLR DC | eBay UK
> an example - focusing rail in ebay gives loads of results for the same product. If you can make it for less than that unit then you are doing well. Budget wise that is about the best on the market. If not by build, but rather by design. If you're going to build I'd suggest a similar design approach.



I'm not going to be buying anything...... not until after the wedding anyways...... the wife would kill me. 

If the focus adjusting method doesn't work out, I will be all over this priduct in a month or two.  Thanks!


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## Trever1t (Jun 21, 2011)

I had decent luck using a fiber optic to light the bore from the chamber, and using a vise and tripod combo to *manually focus a little deeper *into the bore stopped down completely.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

Trever1t said:


> I had decent luck using a fiber optic to light the bore from the chamber, and using a vise and tripod combo to *manually focus a little deeper *into the bore stopped down completely.



Kind of a double edged sword......  If I focus any deeper, (and this is  a MF lens, so I don't really have any choice) I lose the detail on the crown. (For those that don't know what a crown is, it is the very end of the barrel.  In this case, the shiny rounded part) The crown condition is as important as the condition of the bore.


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## Josh66 (Jun 21, 2011)

Stradawhovious said:


> Trever1t said:
> 
> 
> > I had decent luck using a fiber optic to light the bore from the chamber, and using a vise and tripod combo to *manually focus a little deeper *into the bore stopped down completely.
> ...



Wouldn't be an issue with focus stacking though.  That is the only way I see to do it.

Say the barrel could be anywhere from 16-24 inches...  There's no way you're going to get that much DOF in one shot.





02131115 by J E, on Flickr
That's an AR-10 from the back of the upper receiver.  That was f/32 with the 100mm macro.  Pretty much just the chamber is in focus - you can just barely see the rifling (those details best seen at 100% - click on the picture to go to Flickr, then click 'Actions', 'view all sizes', 'original').  I have maybe 3 inches of DOF, and the lens is stopped down as far as it will go.

Using a shorter focal length (still macro though) *might* buy you a little DOF, but it wouldn't be much more.  Not enough to do what you want anyway.


Focus stacking is the way to go, IMO.


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## shlaksbro7 (Jun 21, 2011)

If you want both the bore and the crown to be accuratly portrayed and perhaps the neck and the chamber if you are really serious i reccomend using a bore scope for the interior of the barrel and a seperate picture of the crown. you really cant tell much from trying to look straight down the barrel and pitting is especially hard to notice. check with your local gunsmith to see if you can borrow his because they can get expensive.Good luck.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

shlaksbro7 said:


> If you want both the bore and the crown to be accuratly portrayed and perhaps the neck and the chamber if you are really serious i reccomend using a bore scope for the interior of the barrel and a seperate picture of the crown. you really cant tell much from trying to look straight down the barrel and pitting is especially hard to notice. check with your local gunsmith to see if you can borrow his because they can get expensive.Good luck.



Very true.  With the firearms I'm more concerned with on this issue, pitting an erosion would be blatently obvious.  I would really only be using this for older military surplus rifles that used corrosive ammo.  There are three kinds of bores with those... clean and sharp, clean and worn and destroyed by corrosive ammo.  Should be pretty easy to get the basic idea with this type of photo.  

With the more modern firearms, or those that are corroded from just the elements and poor maintainence, you are correct.... a bore scope is definately the way to go.  Tough to tell that kind of damage with the naked eye.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 21, 2011)

Well, after playing around a bit, I've decided that wihle not impossible, it _is _impractical.  Like the post a couple up said, a borescope is the right tool for the job........ but as impractical as focus stacking the entire length of the barrel for record keeping.  The photo in the OP is good enough for government work.

And government rifles.


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## kundalini (Jun 21, 2011)

But why these settings?   





> This was shot with a 28mm prime, at f/29....


I would think a long foncal length lens would be prefered as well as open up your aperture to the sweet spot of the lens, usually found in the f/5.6 to f/11 range.

Do you have a macro lens?


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## Netskimmer (Jun 21, 2011)

This thread has inspired me to take on a project that I have been putting off for a while now. I have been wanting to get a shot down the barrel of my .40 cal Springfield XDM with a round in the chamber. Since I don't want to risk my head or my camera I intend to load the bullet into the brass with no primer or powder, essentially making a 'dummy' round. The light source and the Dof were of concern but I basically just never got around to making the dummy round. May do this when I get home and download the stacking software to make a few attempts.


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## baturn (Jun 21, 2011)

If you have a dummy round in the chamber, how will you light the bore?


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## Netskimmer (Jun 22, 2011)

That seems to be the last major hurdle I am facing. I've got my dummy round and if I can't get the proper DoF I can use the aforementioned stacking program so now all I need to do is get light down the barrel without throwing too much light on the muzzle. May just have to play around a bit and see what I can come up with.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 22, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> now all I need to do is get light down the barrel without throwing too much light on the muzzle. May just have to play around a bit and see what I can come up with.



That's going to be rough with the .40 Short and Weak........

Now if you had a Man's caliber like a .45........



I would think creative bouncing of a speedlight is in order for that one...... You might also try a macro ringlight depending on how far back you are from the muzzle for the shot.

Also being the stickler for safety I am, in addition to using a dummy round in the chamber, you might consider removing the striker for the shot. Only takes a moment, but then even a live round wouldn't fire (not that I would support using a live round....... I don't)

Overkill, maybe..... safe? Definately.

Just sayin'


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## Netskimmer (Jun 22, 2011)

Stradawhovious said:


> Netskimmer said:
> 
> 
> > now all I need to do is get light down the barrel without throwing too much light on the muzzle. May just have to play around a bit and see what I can come up with.
> ...



A guy that carries a .45 that favors overkill hmm...

I don't think removing the pin is necessary, with no primer or powder the round is basically a hunk of inert metals. There is no possible way for the round to discharge. Besides, what if a zombie burst though the door! Poppin' in a fresh mag and racking a hot round would take far less time without having to reinstall the pin. You don't want me to get my brains eaten do ya?

I like the idea of a macro ring light. I am wanting to get into macro anyway but I'm probably too far away with the current setup (shooting from across a bedroom with zoom lens) and I can't put money into a flash of any kind at the moment.   Maybe in a month or so...


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 22, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> A guy that carries a .45 that favors overkill hmm...
> 
> I don't think removing the pin is necessary, with no primer or powder the round is basically a hunk of inert metals. There is no possible way for the round to discharge. Besides, what if a zombie burst though the door! Poppin' in a fresh mag and racking a hot round would take far less time without having to reinstall the pin. You don't want me to get my brains eaten do ya?



My gosh, where to begin with this one.......

#1. Zombies eat _*Human Flesh*_ They don't favor brains _specifically. _That's what makes them so dangerous. If they did only eat brains, outbreaks would be over as soon as they begin. Kind of self extinguishing.

#2, like I said... removing the pin would be a complete failsafe. Yes, using an inert round is safe enough, provided that's the one that makes it into the chamber, and you don't accidentally grab a live round.

Whodathunk that a gun nut would be paranoid, right? 

#3. if you have one gun disassembled, and don't have another one in condition one, right next to your easy chair.... then it's your fault if the zombies get you, not mine. 

Good luck with this, please let me know how the pic turns out.


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## Netskimmer (Jun 22, 2011)

Stradawhovious said:


> Netskimmer said:
> 
> 
> > A guy that carries a .45 that favors overkill hmm...
> ...



1. Damn! I always liked the idea of them just eating brains, makes me less of an appealing target.
2. The dummy is the only round in the mag so I would be difficult to accidentally load a hot one.

*** GUN NUT AND PROUD!!!***

3. You got me on that one.  I actually had one holstered at 5'oclock position while I was taking the shots. Then there's the loaded 12ga by the bed...

Will let you know if I make any progress. It's past my bedtime, I'll talk to ya later.


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## Stradawhovious (Jun 22, 2011)

kundalini said:


> But why these settings?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really. I have a "macro" lens, but not a *dedicated *macro lens. The initial settings and lens selection were kind of an experiment to get the deepest DOF possible, and still be albe to see the bore. (Well, in my mind that's how it worked out anyways....) I agree that a longer lens, and more suitable aperture setting would probably be better.


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