# Need pricing advice



## Lexiwithalens (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm fairly new to photography as a business, though it's been my hobby for several years.  Since I started venturing into the business side I've done two weddings, and several engagament/family sessions and a few birthday parties.  Recently an assignment has presented itself that I would love to do, but have no idea how to figure out what to charge.  A relative of mine is a firefighter, and his department is wanting have new pictures taken, as a group, each one individually and of each one with his or her spouse and family.  What I normally do is provide my clients with a cd of their digital images with a copyright release, but that could become pretty pricey if  I provided each of them a CD. What would you do in this situation? How much would you charge and how would you give them their photos? (digitally, prints, etc). Any advice will be greatly appreciated.


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## gsgary (Sep 21, 2012)

Are they inside or outside ? have you got studio lighting ? are you good enough to charge


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## ronlane (Sep 21, 2012)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/299732-pricing-question-photos-restaurant.html read through this thread. There is information about pricing on it. Bottom line is you have to know your CODB with a profit margin included.


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## Lexiwithalens (Sep 21, 2012)

Gsgary-The will be outside with the fire truck and fire station.


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

A search of the forum would have revealed a wealth of almost identical questions.  The simple answer is:  Only you can decide what to charge.  Once you have figured out your costs (factoring in everything from salary to insurance to advertising, etc) you know what the minimum return you need from a given job is (referred to as "CODB" or "Cost of doing business").

You need to esitmate how long this job will take, and what your hard costs are (fuel, discs/prints, etc) and factor that in.

If I were doing this job, my pricing would depend on who was paying.  If it were the fire department/government then it would be a set price for the job based on my standard $100/hr rate + travel for the number of hours (+10%) I estimate it will take.  If the individuals are paying for it out of their own pocket, then I would price it based on a standard family portrait session, with a discount based on the number of guarenteed sessions.

As for deliverables, that would really depend on the wants/needs of the clients.  I'm sure that the firehall would insist on digital files, but I would make a concerted effort to upsell prints to the individuals, especially the family ones.

A few words of caution.  DO NOT even think about undertaking this unless all your business ducks are in a row.  Is your liability/E&O insurance paid up, do you have all your licenses necessary to transact business in place?  Do you have all of the relevant tax data?  Don't forget, fire departments are normally run by municipal governments and it isn't much of a stretch to assume that they will check to see if you've paid them all they expect of a business before they pay you.


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## cgipson1 (Sep 21, 2012)

There are a million threads on this subject.. if you bother to do a search!

#1... what is YOUR CODB? (assuming you know! What does it cost you to stay in business? With TAXES, business licenses, insurance, equipment depreciation, Equipment replacement, etc... what does it cost you to DO business? (Assuming you have those things!) Or is this a part time thing for you, and your SO provides the income to support you and your family? If that is the case, it doesn't really matter what you charge.) 

#2 Giving away all rights to your images.. (and a gazillion images on CD at that) just destroys any value you may have..... (although it is a business model that is popular with a certain group!)

#3...  HOW COULD WE possibly know what you should charge.... my (our) costs are different than yours... my (our) quality is different from yours... my (our) market is different from yours! You should check out pricing in YOUR LOCAL market! Not ask a bunch of strangers on the internet!

#4... Don't forget that since the FD is a city or country entity, they will be reporting this on their expenses, and that mean TAXES! If you are currently one of those that DON'T pay taxes.... that could put you on a the HOT SEAT with the IRS.... are you sure you want that?


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## cgipson1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Lexiwithalens said:


> Gsgary-The will be outside with the fire truck and fire station.



How are you going to handle lighting if the sun is in the wrong place?  Or if the sun is really strong, and it is not overcast... how are you going to handle the excessively contrasty lighting?


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## pixmedic (Sep 21, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> There are a million threads on this subject.. if you bother to do a search!
> 
> #1... what is YOUR CODB? (assuming you know! What does it cost you to stay in business? With TAXES, business licenses, insurance, equipment depreciation, Equipment replacement, etc... what does it cost you to DO business? (Assuming you have those things!) Or is this a part time thing for you, and your SO provides the income to support you and your family? If that is the case, it doesn't really matter what you charge.)
> 
> ...



#4 is an excellent point, and one that seems to be overlooked the most! Even as a "part time" photographer, my wife Had her business license, tax ID, and insurance before booking her first paid client. (except for some second shooter jobs she did with the photographer she worked for) Some venues actually require you to  have license and insurance if you want to shoot on their property.  Even if your actual "cost of doing business" is low, you should still consider the eventual need to replace equipment, and doing jobs too cheap may hinder your ability to replace things as they break or wear through normal use.  even after you have figured out what your actual base "cost" is to do a job, you still should factor in at least some profit, or you are basically shooting for free if that money is factored only into gear replacement. your time is worth something. Also, research exactly what sort of equipment you will need to shoot a job. if you are lacking either A: the necessary equipment to do it right, or B:the skill necessary to do it right, i would pass on that job.


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> There are a million threads on this subject.. if you bother to do a search!
> #1... what is YOUR CODB? ....they will be reporting this on their expenses, and that mean TAXES! If you are currently one of those that DON'T pay taxes.... that could put you on a the HOT SEAT with the IRS.... are you sure you want that?


Hey, Charlie... Get the **** outta my head will you????


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## cgipson1 (Sep 21, 2012)

tirediron said:


> cgipson1 said:
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> 
> > There are a million threads on this subject.. if you bother to do a search!
> ...



You know what they say... Great minds and all, right! lol!


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> tirediron said:
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And fools...


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## KmH (Sep 21, 2012)

ronlane said:


> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/299732-pricing-question-photos-restaurant.html read through this thread. There is information about pricing on it. Bottom line is you have to know your CODB with a profit margin included.


That thread deals with the business and pricing model used for commercial photography.

The business/pricing model the OP is asking for help with is for retail photography.

For the OP. Calling it a copyright release is a poor business practice, because using the word copyright implies you are giving up ownership of the copyright.
Provide your customers with a use license/print release, something like this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Print Release - Use License*

All images © 2012 {name or studio here}, All Rights Reserved. This Use License shall be governed by the laws of the State of _________.

I, [name or studio here], as copyright owner of these images, grant a lifetime, personal, non-commercial use license to ____________________ and their immediate family to print or have printed (no larger than (whatever size, if any)) reproductions of these images for display in their home and workplace only.

*Online Use*

{name or studio here} has provided web sized and watermarked images for exclusive use on social networking web sites that are not used for commercial purposes by ____________________ and their immediate family. No other online use is granted.
Removal of the watermark from these web sized images, will constitute a material breach of this Print Release  Use License.

*Copyright Information*

Please remember that because these images are protected by Federal Copyright laws they may not be altered, copied, transmitted or used in any way not stipulated above without prior written consent of the copyright owner, {name or studio here}.
These images may not be entered in any photography or other competition or contest without the expressed written consent of [name or studio here]. Commercial use of the images is prohibited.
No waiver by either party of any of the terms or conditions of this license shall be deemed or construed to be a waiver of such term or condition for the future, or of any subsequent breach thereof. Waivers are only applicable when they are written. There will be no verbal waivers to this agreement.

The Photographer hereby warrants that he (or she) is the sole creator of these images and owns all rights granted by law.

[Name or studio here]
Address:
City, State:
Phone:
Email:
Authorized Signature:


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## jamesbjenkins (Sep 21, 2012)

You know what, I'm going to answer every question like this with four words: USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.

I feel like a damn parrot answering these threads.


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## jwbryson1 (Sep 21, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> You know what, I'm going to answer every question like this with four words: USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
> 
> I feel like a damn parrot answering these threads.



Just like the "Which camera is right for me" posts...


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## pixmedic (Sep 21, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
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> 
> > You know what, I'm going to answer every question like this with four words: USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
> ...



"I just bought my first DSLR with kit lens...which lens should I upgrade to now?" :mrgreen:


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

*Okay everyone...  let's relax a little bit.  Yes, I know that for the regulars, these types of posts get a bit tiresome, however they're always going to happen.  If it annoys you too much, just walk on by...  'kay?  Thanks!*


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## jamesbjenkins (Sep 21, 2012)

tirediron said:
			
		

> Okay everyone...  let's relax a little bit.  Yes, I know that for the regulars, these types of posts get a bit tiresome, however they're always going to happen.  If it annoys you too much, just walk on by...  'kay?  Thanks!



John, am I to understand you to say that it's not acceptable to encourage a new member to make use of the literally THOUSANDS of threads that likely have exactly the same content theirs will produce?

That sounds pretty silly to me. I wasn't aware we were in the business of hand-holding here.


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## Tee (Sep 21, 2012)

1. The fire department group photo - free (consider it a donation as a thanks for their service)

2. Individual fire fighter photo - free (see #1)

3. Family photo - $25 for ONE finished hi-res 8X10.  Pre-paid before the shoot.  Never give copyright away.  Include print release and usage agreement.  

*For family photos - upload images into individual folders in a program like Dropbox and email the link and they can download and print it themselves or if you have a website, create client folders.

*For fire department/ individual fire fighter photos - upload all images onto a personalized flashdrive (Custom Flash Drive - Personalized USB Thumb Drives, Customized Phone Cases, iPad, iPod, iPhone Case Personalization is a good place to order)

*Know your lighting conditions beforehand.  Pre-stage firetruck at the time you will be shooting a few days in advance.  Take sample photos.


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> John, am I to understand you to say that it's not acceptable to encourage a new member to make use of the literally THOUSANDS of threads that likely have exactly the same content theirs will produce?


 *No, no you're not, however there were already three direct references to searching earlier posts prior to the one you made.  There's precious little value added to repeating the same thing over and over.
*


jamesbjenkins said:


> That sounds pretty silly to me. I wasn't aware we were in the business of hand-holding here.


*Okay.*


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## pixmedic (Sep 21, 2012)

tirediron said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > John, am I to understand you to say that it's not acceptable to encourage a new member to make use of the literally THOUSANDS of threads that likely have exactly the same content theirs will produce?
> ...



heh, that's pretty funny actually...since repeating things over and over is exactly what happens when people ask the same questions from many previous posts. 
indeed, precious little value added.


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## tirediron (Sep 21, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> tirediron said:
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> > jamesbjenkins said:
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The irony isn't lost on me either, however I'd like to try and limit the number of times we club the newbies on their first few visits.


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## pixmedic (Sep 21, 2012)

tirediron said:


> pixmedic said:
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agreed..I thought I gave pretty decent advice with very little clubbing involved. I tried not to treat the newbie like a baby seal.


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## Tee (Sep 21, 2012)

Forgot to add- for the individual portrait photos, consider inside with a solid background.  Give 'em a good wall hanger.  They deserve it.


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## jamesbjenkins (Sep 22, 2012)

tirediron said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > tirediron said:
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John, is it really "clubbing" new members to suggest that instead of wasting everyone's time with a COMPLETELY redundant thread, they make use of the resources already on the site?

If someone is so sensitive that they get their feelings hurt over being informed of valuable resources they aren't using, I don't see any value in their presence here. Lord knows we already have enough marshmellows on this forum...


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## tirediron (Sep 22, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> ...John, is it really "clubbing" new members to suggest that instead of wasting everyone's time with a COMPLETELY redundant thread, they make use of the resources already on the site?
> ...


It is when it gets repeated four times in one page, yes.


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