# I don't know why I'm asking this here, but here goes...



## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

I've recently started working for a friend doing administrative and some business managerial schtuff... and there's a client that I'm dealing with that, come 4pm tomorrow, I may or may not have to take further action with.

And I just... don't know what that is going to look like.

LET ME PREFACE THIS BY SAYING...

Yes. I know none of you are lawyers. 

Yes. I know the importance of contracts... GOOD contracts... my friend, however, is not as experienced in working with retail type clients and therefore didn't have a solid contract (he HAD ONE, but he was missing a few key components), and didn't force himself to stick to it... so now we're dealing with that aftermath. 

He knows now.

I've corrected him and his contract, so we're straight going forward, HOWEVER... there's STILL this one client...

There's a client we shot a wedding for back in October.

This client was to pay a deposit up front, which they did, and then pay another portion the day of the wedding, which they did... and then pay the final balance upon receiving the proofs... which they did not do.

Luckily no album was ordered for them yet, but they have all the files from their wedding and they still owe my friend $500.

I had no idea this was the case until the day we decided that I was going to start working for him, he brought up this, "Kinda sorta issue" that he still had outstanding...

So I immediately took to emailing the clients (who is actually someone I used to work with), and informed them of my new position with my friend, and then also kindly reminded them they had a $500 balance and asked them what they were planning on doing about that.

I got a response that $200 was getting paid "this paycheck" and that the balance would be paid by a certain date in March (The 11th, I believe... I have it written down).

"This paycheck" came and went, and we even gave them another week to get the payment out, and I finally sent an email inquiring about it.

They responded by stating that they were "actually doing financially better" would get the whole payment out all at once this past week.

He supposedly dropped it in the mail Wednesday after work, which means it wouldn't have gotten sent until Thursday morning, which means it should have gotten to my friend by Friday.

We had a snow storm so we gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed that maybe mail wasn't running one of the two days... which means at the LATEST it should have gotten to us by yesterday.

It did not.

So we're waiting until tomorrow's mail comes to see if there's a check.

If there is not, I'm going to get a lot more stern than I have been, but this will be the third for fourth time I'm having to send a, "WHERE'S OUR MONEY B****?!" email to them, and because of the relationship between the groom and my friend, and myself, I feel as though he's taking the opportunity to try and drag this out as long as possible, even though he finally did start to feel a little pressure once I started sending e-mails.

So I need some advice as to what my next step needs to be here if this check doesn't come tomorrow.

I'm past the point of sending, "Oh so... about that check..." type emails. I need to do something that is going to light some kind of fire under this guy's ass, because the impression that I'm getting from his peers is that this is a typical thing for him to do. Not okay. Clearly.

Has anyone dealt with anything like this? How did you handle it? How did you word your communications?

I'm looking for practical advice here. Not a lecture on what my friend should have done. I've already done that. Dude knows what he shouldn't have done, what he should have done instead, and what he will be doing going forward in the future. I just need need ideas of what move to make *next* assuming this check isn't in the mailbox tomorrow.


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

the time for emails is over. 
time to shank-a-*****


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> the time for emails is over.
> time to shank-a-*****



I mean. That's where I'm at.

He won't let me do it though.

Something about jail time, and business reputation....


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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damn. Pity tho...
right now im picturing you with a letter opener stabbing that client yelling "wheres that $500 mother******!"


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

You can't get blood from a stone. Make sure they have it.

Talk to the wife. She may care more. 

That don't work. Forget about it. Just don't shoot again for them.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

pixmedic said:


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

in all seriousness...
or, as serious as i can be at this point picturing you shanking some delinquent client....

if his contract is weak...he might just have to eat this one and call it a learning experience from the school of "not allowed to shank people who owe you money". 
its possible that a certified letter mildly threatening legal action might get it done...they may not know whether there is actual legal recourse available, or that the contract is weak. (if thats the case)


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

bribrius said:


> You can't get blood from a stone. Make sure they have it.
> 
> Talk to the wife. She may care more.
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> That don't work. Forget about it. Just don't shoot again for them.



The wife doesn't care more. She's the one that initially responded, with a very cold, annoyed-sounding email with the payment schedule, which was immediately followed-up by the husband, who apologized for her "seemingly cold tone", and then reassured us they would have the payments made by the projected time-frame.

Forgetting about it is also not an option. -- Dude is living off photography full-time and every penny counts for him right now. He doesn't have a day job to fall back on, and while his workload is increasing... it was just/is wintertime. Winter is slow. Which means money is slow.

If they're needing to spread out payments, that's something I can work with, but they are seeming to choose to lie about the situation, rather than being frank (this is, of course assuming, it doesn't come tomorrow.)

*I'm* not the one that even set the payment schedule or the amounts. That's what she came up with. If the situation were worse, I would think the response would have been a "We can't pay this right now", or more payments broken up into smaller amounts.


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## AlanKlein (Mar 8, 2015)

Maybe they lost a job.  Maybe they broke up.  Whatever.    $500 doesn't pay to sue.  Just tell him the rest of the photos and albums will be furnished when they pay the balance.  Then move on.   time is more precious and expensive mentally and financially  then getting involved further with them.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> in all seriousness...
> or, as serious as i can be at this point picturing you shanking some delinquent client....
> 
> if his contract is weak...he might just have to eat this one and call it a learning experience from the school of "not allowed to shank people who owe you money".
> its possible that a certified letter mildly threatening legal action might get it done...they may not know whether there is actual legal recourse available, or that the contract is weak. (if thats the case)



That was actually my thought. I was trying to consider the possibility of threatening legal action, to the point of just getting them to pay.

I looked at his contract again after posting this, and I realize now what the issue was. It wasn't that the contract is *weak* per say... it's that he's asking for payment upon the receipt of these proofs, and rather than getting paid FIRST and then sending the proofs, he sent the proofs and then expected to get paid.

The part he's missing is the part that states that if they don't pay, they don't get anything, until payment is received. It only states WHEN the payment is due, and then he went ahead and ignored his own contract, and delivered images before receiving payment. He's a little too trusting. 

Which is why I'm now in charge of this stuff, because I trust no one, and he's not going to get screwed with me handling it.

I have yet to be screwed by any of my own clients. Haha.


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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Go knock on their door. That is what i have always done when someone owed me money. "hello?  ummm.. yeah. Kinda wondering WHEN YOU WERE GOING TO PAY ME!"  you know, nice though. But stern, Maybe a touch of sarcasm if need be.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

AlanKlein said:


> Maybe they lost a job.  Maybe they broke up.  Whatever.    $500 doesn't pay to sue.  Just tell him the rest of the photos and albums will be furnished when they pay the balance.  Then move on.   time is more precious and expensive mentally and financially  then getting involved further with them.



They didn't lose a job, they didn't break up, these are people in our social circles. We know what they're up to.

Again, moving on is just not an option at this point.

Is it WORTH it to sue over $500? Certainly not. We're not ACTUALLY planning on doing that.

What I'm ASKING for is advice to help figure out a way to put the pressure on and get them to pay the damn balance.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

bribrius said:


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YOU KNOW...

That's actually not a bad idea. Ha.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2015)

I'd say your friend just learned a $500 lesson.


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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bring that letter opener i mentioned earlier.....
just in case


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

runnah said:


> I'd say your friend just learned a $500 lesson.



Possibly, but it's not over yet.


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## tirediron (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


> ...YOU KNOW...
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> That's actually not a bad idea. Ha.


Agree..  IMO, you've got two choices.  (1) Pay a lawyer to draft and send a letter ordering payment; and/or pay a personal visit.  I think if it were me, I would probably start with a personal visit, and state that if payment isn't received by 'X' then you will have your lawyer deal with it, and, when the payment isn't received, then send the letter.


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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e.rose said:


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Yeah.
emails, phone calls, letters, that is all different than one on one. And it may end up totally amicable between all of you it doesn't have to end up a bad situation. But usually when you are talking to someone in person it will go further. Kind of a "lets get to the point" situation. Standing on someone door step tends to carry more weight than email or letter.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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Best thing is to put it out of your mind and move onto the next client. Wasting energy on this is just going to make things worse for you. If they pay, great. If not, then you've not let them take anything more than money.

I do do suggest some minor vandalism on their property. Smashed mail box, stolen trash cans, torched car.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

runnah said:


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Well the great thing for my friend is... It's not gonna get any worse for HIM... because *I'm* the one dealing with it. He's playing video games on the couch, haha. HE'S fine. Aside from the fact that he could use $500 to help pay bills and sh*t, but you know...

And it's not any loss of mine either to pursue it until I'm absolutely sure it's over. This guy isn't a friend of mine. He's an ex-co-worker, who yes, I got along with, but it's no skin off my nose if he hates me forever for wanting my friend to get paid. 

There will certainly come a point where it's not worth it anymore... but I don't think we're there yet.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2015)

So you are doing the dirty work?

Change of plans. Tell them you'll take $250, you pocket that and tell the guy that they never paid.


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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 Little off subject but, If 500 bucks will make or break your friend. He needs to get off the couch and video games and go find a job. I wouldn't give up on the money. But there is such a thing as c.o.d.b (cost of doing business) and the notion of acceptable loss. Just like a store considers shrink ratios from shoplifters. It doesn't sound like he can afford to be in business.


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

e.rose said:


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a lot of people, regardless of circumstance, _*count on *_small businesses  not wanting to go through all the trouble of collecting "small" debts.
especially when its not a company thats going to send the bill to a collection agency or the credit agencies. although in this case, _*you*_ became the collection agency, but you know what  I meant.
why should you give up on it? they owe money they agreed to pay, and services were rendered. 
i say take it to the wall so long as you are willing to do it, and it isnt costing any more money.
if your absolutely _*sure*_ a good old fashioned shanking is out of the question...
a certified letter threatening legal action is often enough of a scare tactic.


of course....so is an angry woman with a shank.
just sayin.


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

runnah said:


> So you are doing the dirty work?
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> Change of plans. Tell them you'll take $250, you pocket that and tell the guy that they never paid.


yeah, he is playing video games on the couch. He suckered her right in... LMAO.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

runnah said:


> So you are doing the dirty work?



Absolutely. 



bribrius said:


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It's not going to break him. He could use it NOW. In the next month when the rest of his checks come in, he's fine, but it's the fact that they owe it. And they need to pay it. Not the fact that he's probably going to be totally fine 2 weeks from now.

He's doing just fine supporting himself with this, but winter time is always slow, and always tight, and every time this year he always has a rough period of time where he has to be a bit more frugal and cautious and any money that he makes late fall/winter really count.

I'm not gonna go through all the ins and outs of his business structure, because 1. No. And 2. That's not the issue. The issue is that he's owed money and I'm trying to get it. 



bribrius said:


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He didn't sucker me in. I get paid, and I get a lot of non-financial photography benefits from him. I have access to a lot of expensive gear I wouldn't otherwise have access to if it weren't for him. And a free assistant.

Our partnership is complex, but it works beautifully.

PLUS... he helps me build better decks for that video game he's playing, because I play it too. The better he gets at that.... the better I get at it too.


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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

pixmedic said:


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You can still put things on credit reports, not that most people care anyway most non payers have crappy credit to start with and could care less.  But file small claims,  (defendent on these type matters rarely shows up) pay the hundred in service fee to have them served with the court fee.  show up. wait for the automatic judgement to come down (because they probably wont show up). Take the judgment and fax it to a collection bureau. It isn't much money, so they may take like half of it just in a fee. But the good thing is once they get it you can request them and any other collection agency to add it to the credit report. So if you use three agencies, IT GOES ON THREE TIMES. At least unless the credit bureaus can sort the difference. Also periodically the bureaus go through the court house for defaults on judgements. so it might get picked up there too. May never get paid. But you can have a lot of fun with this type of stuff.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

bribrius said:


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That's good to know for the future. I don't think we'll take it that far, but that's certainly good to know.


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## Gary A. (Mar 8, 2015)

The first thing to do is not to take any of this personal. Business is business. Send a registered letter demanding payment. If after a few weeks, mark it on your calendar ... then do small claims. Add all the time and expenses spent to collect to the $500 plus interest. Odds are they pay you on the the day you are to appear in court ... refuse to accept payment unless they pay for all the expenses it took to get them to pay. Or, they may just not appear in court and you win by default. But winning is different than collecting ... but now you have a court order.  Armed with the court order you can now do all kinds of nasty stuff ... put a lien on a house, sell the paper to a collections agency ... et al. Just don't get personally hung up on all this ... it is all about money ... not you or your boss.


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## pixmedic (Mar 8, 2015)

Can you get your friend to take a picture of you looking all angry holding a letter opener? or icepick? or large kitchen knife? Any suitable shanking device would suffice, really.
It would be so awesome. 
you could have a contest to caption it!
it could be your avatar here until this collection business is done.


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## Derrel (Mar 8, 2015)

I'd send the certified letter...what is that nowadays?Last one I sent was $7.95, but that was yearrrrs ago. Maybe $12.95 these days? I dunno... 

I have a feeling that if this were to be taken to small claims court that the judge would rule for the photographer within the hour. Hope it all works out.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2015)




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## bribrius (Mar 8, 2015)

Gary A. said:


> The first thing to do is not to take any of this personal. Business is business. Send a registered letter demanding payment. If after a few weeks, mark it on your calendar ... then do small claims. Add all the time and expenses spent to collect to the $500 plus interest. Odds are they pay you on the the day you are to appear in court ... refuse to accept payment unless they pay for all the expenses it took to get them to pay. Or, they may just not appear in court and you win by default. But winning is different than collecting ... but now you have a court order.  Armed with the court order you can now do all kinds of nasty stuff ... put a lien on a house, sell the paper to a collections agency ... et al. Just don't get personally hung up on all this ... it is all about money ... not you or your boss.


yeah. i wouldn't do it over five hundred bucks. I been down that road before a few times but it was over more $$$$ and quite frankly they ticked me off so much i  would have spent twice what they owed me just on principle to keep dragging them in court and collection bureaus. Just because..


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## Light Guru (Mar 8, 2015)

Turn it over to a debt collections agency. Yes they will take a big percentage of the debt but you also won't have to deal the dead beat client anymore. 

Chalk up the loss to what Dave Ramsey calls Stupid Tax.


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## bogeyguy (Mar 8, 2015)

Not sure how it works in your state but here in PA. we have local magistrates where you can initiate legal proceedings for small claims. The cost is not exorbitant to file an action. The magistrate will summon the parties to a hearing and determine the outcome and can order a judgment against the defendant if he finds them guilty. Of course there is also a chance of appeal and then the costs start to escalate because attorneys become involved.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> Can you get your friend to take a picture of you looking all angry holding a letter opener? or icepick? or large kitchen knife? Any suitable shanking device would suffice, really.
> It would be so awesome.
> you could have a contest to caption it!
> it could be your avatar here until this collection business is done.





If I had enough time to do that, I would. 



runnah said:


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That's EXACTLY what I think of every time I find out the check hasn't come yet.  

"WHERE'S MY MONEY?! GIVE ME MY MONEY, B****!"



bogeyguy said:


> Not sure how it works in your state but here in PA. we have local magistrates where you can initiate legal proceedings for small claims. The cost is not exorbitant to file an action. The magistrate will summon the parties to a hearing and determine the outcome and can order a judgment against the defendant if he finds them guilty. Of course there is also a chance of appeal and then the costs start to escalate because attorneys become involved.



I did not know that. I wasn't in PA long after I went officially into business, so I never had to look into anything like that there. I wonder if TN does the same. That would also be good to know for future reference.


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## e.rose (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks for all your responses, guys.

I had to trek back over to my friend's house tonight to get a lens I was SUPPOSED to bring home with me, but I left on the coffee table.

I was talking to him about it a bit more and HE seems confident that he'll have a check tomorrow.

He doesn't feel that this guy would lie to him about putting it in the mail, because he's used my friend for other artist promo photo shoots before and he's never had issue with payment (although, I don't know what his definition of "issue" is), but he seems pretty confident that he'll check his mail tomorrow it'll be there.

This is why we balance each other out well, haha.

He's sittin' happy, confident it's gonna be here... I'm over here prepping and planning for an assault, just in case, because I'm not as optimistic.

Yin and Yang, yeah? 

We balance each other out. It's good. 

Although, I really do hope his optimism is well-placed and we won't have to deal with this past my sending a "Thank you for your payment!" email.


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## Derrel (Mar 9, 2015)

"And it's for....five huuuuuuuundred dollars!"


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## vintagesnaps (Mar 9, 2015)

If a check doesn't arrive maybe think about calling instead of emailing (at least for me I feel like sometimes talking to someone directly can be more effective). You could remind the client of when payment was due and find out what can be paid now, then figure out arrangements for the rest of the balance to be paid if needed.

I usually try to keep things objective, phrase it for example as 'the amount owed' instead of 'you owe'. Seems like people tend to respond to that better and in a less defensive way if it sounds more like stating facts than placing blame.

Hopefully it will come in the mail after all.


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## weepete (Mar 9, 2015)

I'd send one more letter with a deadline for payment and let them know that if they miss it you'll file in the small claims court. In the mean time document the shoot, who sent what and when the deliverables were met. If they miss the deadline I'd take them to court even if it's just for the principal.

You've already had an agreement from them that they owe you the money and will pay so it should be really clear cut and it's what small claims were made for.


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## bribrius (Mar 9, 2015)

i stopped your mailman this morning and flipped him a twenty to hold that envelope for a few more days, just so we can all see how this plays out.


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## W.Y.Photo (Mar 9, 2015)

bribrius said:


> i stopped your mailman this morning and flipped him a twenty to hold that envelope for a few more days, just so we can all see how this plays out.








Now we know why this is a fact. Thanks Brib!


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## e.rose (Mar 9, 2015)

Check came! Crisis and bloodshed averted!


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## pixmedic (Mar 9, 2015)

e.rose said:


> Check came! Crisis and bloodshed averted!




no shanky shanky?


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## e.rose (Mar 9, 2015)

pixmedic said:


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Nope.


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## pixmedic (Mar 9, 2015)

e.rose said:


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awe...
maybe next time.
apparently you are awesome at this!
they heard you were coming and paid up.


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## e.rose (Mar 9, 2015)

pixmedic said:


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Don't mess with me. I'LL CUT YOU.


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## tirediron (Mar 9, 2015)

e.rose said:


> Check came! Crisis and bloodshed averted!


  Well so much for that... I wonder what's on television.


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## jl1975 (Mar 9, 2015)

e.rose said:


> Check came! Crisis and bloodshed averted!



Now, hopefully it doesn't bounce.  Joking aside, it's good that it worked out.  And, this way your friend learned that lesson for free.


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## e.rose (Mar 9, 2015)

jl1975 said:


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You know the funny thing?

That was LITERALLY my first though when he texted me to tell me he got it. "That sh*t better not bounce."

I'm so cynical.


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## W.Y.Photo (Mar 10, 2015)

Win!!


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