# Buy a Camera, Start A Business?



## thenikonguy (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm not one to judge.. but, it seems that people think they can just buy a camera, and start a business... what ever happened to learning your art, assisting someone and learning from them.. why does it seem that more and more people think they took a great picture, so they should start a business?

Am I the only one seeing this? I know people have to start somewhere.. but I think theres more to being a photographer than just having a camera... I studied for a long time, and then worked along side different pros for a long time before I even considered doing anything by myself, other than family photos..  did I do it wrong? or are people just jumping ahead of the game... 

Sorry for the rant.. I've just seen a LOT of threads lately where people just bought a camera and are starting a business, even though they've only taken a few photos.

Just because you've spent $1500 on a camera, doesn't mean its time to start a business.. it takes time.. I'm all for people boosting up their own ego and calling themselves a photographer.. even though they don't know any of the finer points of their art... but should you really be advertising yourself as someone who knows what they are doing, when you still are learning how to shoot.. .


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## Mitch1640 (Aug 9, 2009)

i think its happening because the market is there, the elite photographers are always going to have the better jobs and create a better final image/product but it is so easy to break into getting paid for photography that it probably wont let up any time soon.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 9, 2009)

Heh, you don't even address the idea of creativity and talent, either. It's more important than camera choice.

Whatever, though. The cream always rises to the top.


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## Dagwood56 (Aug 9, 2009)

This has been a bug in my bonnet for awhile now. I've seen several people here who join TPF, announce they have just bought a dslr etc etc and then say they've never taken a photo in their life and can someone tell them how to use the camera.  A month later they are posting that they've just had business cards made and they've booked a wedding to shoot! Hello? A months practice shooting ducks at the park doesn't give anyone experience enough to start a business in my opinion.  My take on it is this - so many people "think" its the camera that takes the photos. Big camera, nice photos, big money! And since so many people think that way, those doing the hiring of the self professed noob, don't know the difference between professional quality and a vacation snapshot.


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## KmH (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> Just because you've spent $1500 on a camera, doesn't mean its time to start a business.. it takes time.. I'm all for people boosting up their own ego and calling themselves a photographer.. even though they don't know any of the finer points of their art... but should you really be advertising yourself as someone who knows what they are doing, when you still are learning how to shoot.. .


 
If you can get people to pay you? Go for it.

Starting a business is easy. Staying in business is another story.

My mentor always stressed taking care of my business and not devoting time or effort contemplating someone elses business.


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## table1349 (Aug 9, 2009)

This has always been a buyer beware society, why should photography be any different? It's the nature of people and society.


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## Derrel (Aug 9, 2009)

The New York Times did a  couple of feature stories on the new phenomenon of "moms with a camera" back in 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/your-money/27iht-mplay28.4.5478740.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/business/yourmoney/15cameras.html

According to the Professional Photographers of America, an "overwhelming" percentage of these new photography businesses are being started by women.

The NYT articles attribute the phenomenon of MWAC photo businesses to the affordability of quality d-slr cameras,and the fact that many of them have husbands who earn income from an outside the home job. The majority of these new businesses are named by simply adding the word "Photography" after the name of the photographer, such as Amy Smith Photography. In 2007, one web development firm said they were creating around 100 new photography business web sites every month!

It's not just women who are starting these shoestring photo businesses of course, there are men doing it too, but, at least according to the PPA, women are the overwhelming majority. I've mentioned this before on other boards, and some women have become offended, but the facts are that women control the buying decisions on most family photography products like family portraits, wall portraits, wedding photos, and so on, and so it makes sense that women-to-women businesses would spring up.

But we also see the same thing in the huge growth of the unwashed masses of paparazzi; old-time paps are disgusted by the new,younger,ill-mannered shooters who were able to get into the biz once Canon made a $1,000 Rebel and cheap laptops,wireless internet, and high-speed modems became a reality. The issue really is that the *barriers to entry* have now been greatly,greatly lowered from what they were years ago, in almost all fields of photography. Darkroom chemicals that used to spoil??? No longer a problem. Lab fees to process film and prints? No longer an issue, you can show previews in minutes,with no proofing costs. A cheap $600 d-slr will give you the equivalent of $50,000 in film and printing costs before the shutter gives up.

Like I have said for years, "everybody's a photographer now."


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## ottor (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> I studied for a long time, and then worked along side different pros for a long time before I even considered doing anything by myself, other than family photos..  did I do it wrong? or are people just jumping ahead of the game...



Nope............ you did it right.   You'll be around a hell'ava lot longer then they will!!  Nothing to be concerned about .. 

Human nature ... Someone praises you on something you've done, you begin to think they're right .. perhaps someone else/everyone else thinks the same, and ... is willing to PAY YOU MONEY to do this !!!!   Running a business is a whole different ball game...  

r


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## Annamas (Aug 9, 2009)

I think, in part, it's because "Photography" doesn't sound like a trade.  When I think professional photographer I don't think education, I dont' think years of slaving as an apprentice, and when I look at a photo I think "Wow, thats beautiful, I could do that".  (I readily admit that I can't do that in many cases).

When you think of a painter, a musician, an artist in general, you don't typically think about apprenticeship.  

But in reality, if you want to be good and what your doing, you'd be stupid not to find a professional and apprentice yourself to them.


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## UUilliam (Aug 9, 2009)

I just turned down an offer to take a wedding...

I have only had my camera about 7 month but i have already been banned from 2 forums for Expressing my opinon in this field
It really annoys me to think people are out there paying money for something they cant use just so they can earn money, Whereas I am willing to wait, Put thought into the Art, Learn to use the camera to its best abillity, Study at college, Dedicate every penny I earn to improving my kit so that it is Easier (not possible but Easier) to take a better photo
I have turned down 4 offers to do a wedding, This is bad for me as it stops my family spreading my name I guess as when the time comes that I feel I can pull off a wedding and keep both, The wedding party and I happy with the outcome, Only then will I consider doing or Charging for my Photography.
Not that I am for people doing weddings completely free as this is putting the Pro's out of a potential job, As the saying goes, Do unto others as You would like done unto you. (dont do what you would hate someone else to do to you)

Although one thing I have acceted (because she has asked before and she is pretty pushy) 
My mums friend Is a Singer, She is starting singing at weddings (she has been a Professional singer for 20 odd years, doing clubs, Pubs, used to teach music etc... but shes got ME (the disability) and she had to quit here teaching and her singing, She only started back like last year or so.
I said yes, and she said, Much do you want for it?
I said no no your okay, No need, This will be for my experience, put towards a portfolio.

Most of you photographers get people trying to Undercut you... she turned around and said to me
"there is no friends in business, The other photographer I usually use charges £70, How about i Give you £50 for it?"
How's that for you, A client who wants to pay for you instead of trying to under cut... 
So as she showed a responsibilty in the pricing, I decided, Hey why not...
It is experience, but i will try Waive her from paying but if she does, It is 2 new memory cards for me I guess 
No idea when it is tbh...

The reason for True Photographers being undercut is the people hiring have had no experience in real art
Their experience is limited to Office / Retail work or manual labour...
They dont understand the prices of cameras, Lens' or the prints...
Whenever I tell my friends about L series lens' at £700 - £6000 for the lens they are like :O thats nuts why would people pay that, i didnt think it would be so dear...
Then I show my kit, Explain that is only £2000 worth of kit (not much in my kit tbh.)
Then they are really surprised at the cost of photography
Sure anyone can take a photo, But only few people can take a GOOD photograph.

There should be an article put in the paper once a year "why Photographers cost so much, Photography is a form of Creative art, How much would you pay for a painting? £200? well a photographer is a painter, but with Higher quality and finer details, they charge for their art and they charge to cover their fees such as printing and their Websites to keep their client communication open" and the rest of the article... lol


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## STiStein (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> I'm not one to judge..



Your first five word sentence says it all. I think people want better photos of their families other than going to Wal-Mart and getting a "Plain Jane" portrait which is where I think I could do them justice.. Just because someone wants to have a business does not mean they are saying to the rest of you that you are inferior. I don't think that people want to go to a photographer that's at the top of his game charging a ton of money when they just want an above average photo.


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

I Kinda thought that was the american way... The best part is that is a moron does it with out knowing what he is doing people will find out.  The business will fail.  And people will learn you get what you pay for.


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## dezignx (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> I'm not one to judge.. but, it seems that people think they can just buy a camera, and start a business... what ever happened to learning your art, assisting someone and learning from them.. why does it seem that more and more people think they took a great picture, so they should start a business?
> 
> Am I the only one seeing this? I know people have to start somewhere.. but I think theres more to being a photographer than just having a camera... I studied for a long time, and then worked along side different pros for a long time before I even considered doing anything by myself, other than family photos..  did I do it wrong? or are people just jumping ahead of the game...
> 
> ...



hmmmm....wondering if you're referring to me because you responded to my post but misunderstood it saying I need to learn what I have before starting a business....but I did NOT say I was starting a business...I was referring to taking pictures in general as a hobby....can I take my own kids photo's?? OR its required that I go to Walmart or a professional photographer?  



KmH said:


> If you can get people to pay you? Go for it.
> 
> Starting a business is easy. Staying in business is another story.
> 
> My mentor always stressed taking care of my business and not devoting time or effort contemplating someone elses business.



Right On!!!



STiStein said:


> thenikonguy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not one to judge..
> ...



Totally Agree
And as for places like WalMart and some of these other portrait places, Sears, Portrait Innovations and alot others.....they just have the money to invest in the equipment because half the people they hire don't even have experience or even know what aperture/ISO/lighting and all that other stuff mean. All they know is what button to press to take the picture. 



Jeffro said:


> I Kinda thought that was the american way... The best part is that is a moron does it with out knowing what he is doing people will find out.  The business will fail.  And people will learn you get what you pay for.



Totally Agree here too



To each its own. I feel if someone wants to start a business and know nothing about it, then thats their problem and they will have to later suffer the consequences. On another note, some people don't want to go to WalMart or can't afford to go to a professional photographer, so that is where the other class of so-call picture taking people or photographers come in. You might not like the idea of it, but some people do.  

I deal with alot of music artists and they are always needing photoshoots done. They know I have a camera that can get the job done. They just need simple photos so they can be photoshopped. But, do I offer photography as one of my services, NO. Even though they want a simple point and shoot photo, which a baby can do, I still don't feel right taking photos because I am not experienced in that area. But, maybe when I get more experience, maybe I could offer that service if they need new photos for they album cover or something.


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## musicaleCA (Aug 9, 2009)

Ah, the ol' "<name> Photography" gig. Bah. I'm thinking Crimson Phoenix Photography for me. Can play-up the mythology of the phoenix and relate it to a guarantee to keep all the images from a shoot (or guarantees of prints, yadda yadda), and it goes nicely with my current hair colour of choice (really bright, bright red). Bwahahahaha.

Of course, I'm not crazy either. That's quite a ways off yet. Hell, I know more than most beginners, but I'm not crazy enough to think that I have the skills to own and operate a sucessful photography business yet. I think this is a problem with people over-estimating their abilities. (And thinking nice cameras make good photos. Many people approach me saying "Nice camera!" *point flash at their face, set to full power* POW! "OW!" "What? It was trying to take a photo of you! Don't blame me; the camera does all the work!"  )


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## thenikonguy (Aug 9, 2009)

you guys have all made some great points.. I especially apprecitate the idea of those who studied their art, and practiced, will be in business for a long time... that makes sense i guess..  even when I think about my local area, there seem to be photography businesses popping up every month.. but they don't last long.. some have even invested THOUSANDS of dollars, because their mom said they did a great job on the family photo.. but then, when they opened the studio, moms opinion was no longer important.

to dezignx.. i wasnt just referring to you.. there are a lot of people on the forum who do it.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

...it seems that people think they can just buy a camera, and start a business... 

Hey, that's what I did. Nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is what you mention next. Having just taken a few photos. I had close to 3 years of photography when I bought my first camera.

But this problem is not new. I worked in graphic design for a printer and we saw the same problem there with the first releases of Windows. People would buy CorelDraw and call themselves graphic designers. Everyday we turned people away who came in with 4 color designs and wanted only 250 business cards. No, their clients probably would not want to pay $1 or $2 a card. Back then, understanding the printing process was a must for a graphic designer.

Guess what, today those crazy designs go to a laser printer, those people don't get turned away anymore. Those people are not better designers but the technology allows them to get away with it by getting their stuff printed. And if they can find enough clients who don't understand design either, they could be in business for a while. But most probably they won't.

And it's the same in photography.

Don't worry, be happy.


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## UUilliam (Aug 9, 2009)

> I feel if someone wants to start a business and know nothing about it, then thats their problem and they will have to later suffer the consequences.


No, It isn't "Their" problem...
It affects the whole industry, People under charging thus when real photographers share their prices people turn their nose up at them...
this uts the real photographers out of business for "Over pricing themselfs" so to tackle this the photographers have to lower their rate because of all the noobs.
Think of it like a bank...
If a newbie decides "I want rich I bank money, give me money I invest and pay you 50% AER" All the other banks loose clients cause this guy is offering 50% interest!!
so the banks have to raise their interest thus loosing money thus resulting in a credit crunch like we are experienceing atm (although not caused by this method... it is caused by dumb ass people thinking "iwannabusinessIapplyforcreditandmortgageformybusinessIbesuccessful - then 2 months later they realise - ahbusinesstoohardgiveup,bumpthebank." but not limited to.)


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> ... they could be in business for a while. But most probably they won't.



Yup.

I don't understand how people think that these people who just took their first picture a week ago are taking jobs from seasoned pros.

That would be like the maintenance department of a major car dealer worrying about going out of business because an AutoZone just opened down the street.

Sure, anybody can walk in there and buy a water pump, but it isn't going to hurt the dealer.


Some people sound like they think you should have to take a test and get a license before being allowed to even buy a camera.


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

That was some crazy quotes... LOL
When I was younger and my brother got married my mom got a friend of a friend with a camera to do the wedding and paid I think $400. Plus the cost of extra prints. She was sadly dissappointed with everything he did and told everyone she could about it. So a few years later I got married and she wanted a real photographer and Paid close to $1800 and he was a dream. She still loves the pictures and the album that came with it. She has told many people to spend more and get the real deal and alot of my friends have used my photographer. About 10 weddings he has done from my moms talks with people. And two more coming up soon. Also Two other really good photographers we know now have done two weddings apiece this year alone from friends of my moms. 
So the way I look at it 1 wedding was lost to a cheapo, fly by night PHOTOGUY that just bought a camera and 15 or so good jobs came open cause of it! 

I would think in some ways if it teaches the general public "GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"
it can help Photography Pros out in the long run!

This all happened over the last 5 years but still!
I know my moms friends all preach that line! 

Now I am going to my friends wedding in a couple of weeks and plan to take lots of pictures and he offered me a couple of times to pay me but I wont except. I also told him to get a real photographer and I made a few calls. I have a guy doing it for him now for a good price. Now I also ask if he would mind if I used the wedding to learn and practice since I helped to get him the gig and he said that was fine. I told my friend that I am promicing him nothing! cause I dont know what I will get. but I want the experience! 

Plus at the end of it all the Photographer said he would take a look at my pics and see if he could help me! So another bonus! 

But in the long run I never really want to do weddings anyways, just think it is good experience!

Everyone is happy here!


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

UUilliam said:


> > I feel if someone wants to start a business and know nothing about it, then thats their problem and they will have to later suffer the consequences.
> 
> 
> No, It isn't "Their" problem...
> ...



Yes it is their problem! The last I checked anyone has the right to start a photo business if they so desire. I have lost a part of my business to people working for free but I didn't lose any income. I just went and did something else.

Photographers who lose income to this situation beg the question: how good are they themselves in the first place? Just look at the websites that you can find links to in this forum then come back and tell me what is percentage of those you would hire. Mine is not very high.


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## thenikonguy (Aug 9, 2009)

i'm sorry, but in a small town like mine, I DO loose business to crappy "photographers" i would say about 75% of my business comes from online advertising.. sites like Kijiji.. and, joe crappy photoguy is also advertising on kijiji.. he is advertising "why pay high prices for photographers, when you can get great photos for less" i'm advertising "don't be fooled by cheap photographers.. " then, i send him an email posing as someone to book him.. i see his shots, they SUCK, and YES, he is charging a lot less than me.. but guess what.. "fred" sees the 2 ads, and sends cheap face an email, sees the pics, and is relitively happy with them.. so, he books him.. he doesnt even send me an email to say "can i see your samples" so, he's not seeing the better quality of my photos.. he's not seeing the time put into my photos...

so am I loosing bussiness to cheap no name business' that only last a few months.. yes.. i am.. does it have anything to do with my skill.. no, it has everything to do with advertising.. people see cheap, and the guy says "i have a DSLR" so they assume he's good..


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> UUilliam said:
> 
> 
> > > Just look at the websites that you can find links to in this forum then come back and tell me what is percentage of those you would hire. Mine is not very high.
> ...


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## manaheim (Aug 9, 2009)

Nikon or Canon? 

This particular type of thread has been warred over several times in the past.  Probably far more than I'm aware of.

You get what you pay for, buyer beware, the market will sustain what the market demands, if people are buying then other people will be selling, etc.

Ask yourself why there is a HUGE telemarketing business?  I have never, nor would I ever, purchase ANYTHING from a telemarketer... hell, more often than not I tell them to put me on their do not call list and as soon as I confirm, slam down the phone... I don't know a single person who has ever admitted to buying anything from them... yet they're still there.  Why?

Because it works.  People buy.


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> I studied for a long time, and then worked along side different pros for a long time before I even considered doing anything by myself, other than family photos..  did I do it wrong? or are people just jumping ahead of the game...



really?
how long?
who did you study with?
what "pro's"?

your recent posts dont show any further skill then someone who "bought a camera and started a business"

since DSLR's have become so common in the consumer market, its pretty easy for just about anyone to "buy a camera and started a business". hell, you can buy them at walmart and costco. if thats not commercial, i dont know what is.
what you really need to ask yourself is, what are YOU doing to separate yourself from the herd?
if someone who just picked up a camera for the first time is taking your business, then maybe you should stop pointing fingers and step YOUR game up.

 as someone already said. "The cream always rises to the top."
and that seriously sums it all up.

time for you to get creamy :lmao:


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

Well one question I want to ask is this.

What happens in a family or man get married can only afford say $300 for a photographer OR for some one taking pictures what is he to do. If I was broke I would still want some pictures of my wedding. What about those guys that know they cant afford the best but still something is better than nothing. Think any major photographer would give him the time of day? Are there Buget Photographers out there????



PS POST ABOVE SHOULD START SOME S$%T!!!  
I will have to check out his shots before I step in anything!


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

if thats the clientele youre after, by all means, lower your rates, undercut yourself, and take those jobs. however, if thats all the money they have to spend, and you feel your work is worth more than that, then let the job go to someone who is willing to take the lower rate. its that simple.

it all comes back to your sense of self worth.


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> Well one question I want to ask is this.
> 
> What happens in a family or man get married can only afford say $300 for a photographer OR for some one taking pictures what is he to do. If I was broke I would still want some pictures of my wedding. What about those guys that know they cant afford the best but still something is better than nothing. Think any major photographer would give him the time of day? Are there Buget Photographers out there????



In that case, you need to do your homework.  Look at portfolios.

I'm sure that there are excellent budget photographers, but you have to find them.


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

Look, it's this simple -

If you are afraid of someone that has no clue what they are doing, maybe YOU are the one that doesn't know what they're doing.


Ignore them, and eventually they will go away.  ...Or they will get better, then you might actually have reason to worry.


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

I know I am kinda changing the subject but what the hell

I dont have a business first of all.  I did not say that I would take that job.  But I would think that by someone taking that job, it does not affect MORE expensive Photographers.  Also whos to say if that is undercutting.  Maybe there is a way to get the job done and still make money.  Say if the only thing the buyer gets is a few slideshows on some DVD's.   

So if a Photographer prides himself in doing really small weddings for a smaller price and can still make money out there whats the problem.  Hell the "REALLY Photographers"  as some would say are losing business cause they would never take the job in the first place!


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

someone doing a wedding for $100, IN NO WAY affects my business, because im not in the business of doing $100 weddings


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## KmH (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> ......then, i send him an email posing as someone to book him.. i see his shots, they SUCK, and YES, he is charging a lot less than me......


Wow......just Wow.......


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## UUilliam (Aug 9, 2009)

The reason i say these noobs who charge likes of £100 for a full day wedding are stealing the clients is:
Humans look for the cheapest price they can
If you had the offer of a sport car at £300 and a sport car at £25000 which would you buy?
I guess the one at £300, your saving money right?
wrong you just paid for a Peugeot 105

Sure the majority will research a little bit
but at the end of the day, the money that the noob is getting for messing up a wedding is a client you could have had and gave them a good wedding (or memories at least.)

Also some of the noobs aren't under pricing themselves...
they charge like £800 etc... and the results are overexposed uncomposed blurry images and under exposed images... with about 1 out of every 40 being Decent.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> i'm sorry, but in a small town like mine, I DO loose business to crappy "photographers" i would say about 75% of my business comes from online advertising.. sites like Kijiji.. and, joe crappy photoguy is also advertising on kijiji.. he is advertising "why pay high prices for photographers, when you can get great photos for less" i'm advertising "don't be fooled by cheap photographers.. " then, i send him an email posing as someone to book him.. i see his shots, they SUCK, and YES, he is charging a lot less than me.. but guess what.. "fred" sees the 2 ads, and sends cheap face an email, sees the pics, and is relitively happy with them.. so, he books him.. he doesnt even send me an email to say "can i see your samples" so, he's not seeing the better quality of my photos.. he's not seeing the time put into my photos...
> 
> so am I loosing bussiness to cheap no name business' that only last a few months.. yes.. i am.. does it have anything to do with my skill.. no, it has everything to do with advertising.. people see cheap, and the guy says "i have a DSLR" so they assume he's good..



1/ Maybe you need to revise your marketing plan. I don't know where you live (don't even know what kind of photography you do) but, to be honest, if 75% of your photo business comes from the internet and you're doing local work, something is wrong. The only advertisement I did for my wedding photography was Business Cards.

Please don't think I am trying to be mean but we all need to be realistic about who we are. If you are not a marketing guru, get help. And this helps does not necessarily mean hire a pro. There are great books out there. Today, I own rental properties. Decided to go into that because I like to fix houses and I'm good at it. But I'm realistic enough to know that is not enough to make a go of it so I went to the library and took out every book they had on the subject. And I also bought a couple more.

 2/ I personally would not use the line "don't be fooled by cheap photographers.. " in my adverts. Negative ads are not the best and I feel it would make me look like I'm afraid of the competition.



Jeffro said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > UUilliam said:
> ...


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## thenikonguy (Aug 9, 2009)

sorry, i was speaking figurtively when i said i use the like "dont be fooled by cheap photographers.. "  i thought that would have been known.. i guess not..


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> Jeffro said:
> 
> 
> > Well one question I want to ask is this.
> ...



:thumbup:

I once got a great plumber for a very reasonable rate (before I learned to do it myself) because the guy had just gone into business for himself. Did he price himself low because he didn't know how to price the job or because he was hungry enough? I don't know and didn't ask  I just hired him. Not only did he become our plumber for a few years but because he wasn't afraid of me taking over his jobs, he taught me most of what I know today.


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## HeY iTs ScOTtY (Aug 9, 2009)

You guys all make me laugh. For those of you that are mad at people who buy a camera and start a business just makes me think you're scared of them taking business from you. I know this girl that lives in California who bought a camera to take pictures or her kids. Her friends saw them and then wanted her to take pictures of their kids. Now she makes about 90,000 a year taking pictures of children. This was about 4 years ago. It doesn't take a whole lot of know how to take great pictures. It does take creativity, patience, and a willingness to learn how to use your equipment and a stride to try new things and new techniques. Its the photographers who are unwilling to change who lose jobs. Face it, some people just have a knack for photography. I know a few people on here who have not done it for long and are awesome at it.


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

Maybe I a crazy " and that is totally possible" but Bottom line is that there will always be someone doing photographer for cheaper than others or even for free. That is the land of competition and sometimes they are not fair. Hell they may even cheat but Life aint FAIR! 
So knowing that,  I think that the true masters of their trade shine and seem to make a ton of money. Cause most normal people get burnt and move on to the fact you get what you pay for. They will see other Photos and realize that what they got from the friend of a friend was crap and they will tell people about it. SOME of those people will learn from the mistake and hire quality! 

If not then they would not have spent the money in the first place. Either way photographers charging $1000+ will never get this business anyways. 

So I still dont think it is hurting them as bad as they think!

Build your business on Skill and great photos and people will come!!! 

WORD OF Mouth is Still the way to go!


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

UUilliam said:


> The reason i say these noobs who charge likes of £100 for a full day wedding are stealing the clients is:
> Humans look for the cheapest price they can
> If you had the offer of a sport car at £300 and a sport car at £25000 which would you buy?
> I guess the one at £300, your saving money right?
> ...




you seriously need to point your finger in the mirror, and ask yourself what YOURE doing wrong at that point.

people dont look for "the cheapest price". they look for the best deal that fits their budget. the "cheapest price" is FREE. so why not just give a family member a p&s, and have them take the pics?
when people plan out their wedding, they will have a set budget for each element of the wedding (catering, cake, music, mc, flowers, dress, etc). and they will look for the best deal they can possibly get within that range. HOWEVER, if they dont find something they are comfortable with at that price, they will go up a level, and adjust funds in other areas.
now, if they only have $100 to spend on a photographer, and your chepest package is $1000, then you were not going to get the contract regarldess of the product you put out. this leaves you 2 options. either lower your price to allow you to do these "budget" weddings, or retain your self worth and laugh it off. 
i for one, would not put my name on a $100 wedding REGARDLESS of the images, because when they get the prints and talk to family and friends, you become "the cheap photographer", and you will be doing $100 weddings from then on out. 

if the cheap $100 wedding is what youre after, adjust your rates accordingly, and sell yourself short. but if your work was really worth more then that, then someone doing a $100 wedding wouldn't bother you at all. 

and if some other photographer sold their crap work for $800, you're not mad that the pictures came out like crap, you're just mad that they got the contract and you didnt. it has NOTHING to do with "wanting to give them good memories". who do you think youre fooling? at that point youre just making excuses to yourself for not getting the work.
if they can sell crap for $800, why didnt you?

step your game up.
weather its the images, marketing, customer service, ect.
everything plays a factor in the "business" of photography.

(btw. this wasnt aimed directly at you "UUilliam". just using your quotes as  an example)


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## PhotoXopher (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.

Need me to shoot your son/daughter playing sports? Buy my a 70-200 f/2.8 and I'll shoot all year long.

Need shots of your family? It'll cost you an 85mm f/1.4.


I'm ready, I've had a DSLR for 8 months now.


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Jeffro said:
> ...





HeY iTs ScOTtY said:


> You guys all make me laugh. For those of you that are mad at people who buy a camera and start a business just makes me think you're scared of them taking business from you. I know this girl that lives in California who bought a camera to take pictures or her kids. Her friends saw them and then wanted her to take pictures of their kids. Now she makes about 90,000 a year taking pictures of children. This was about 4 years ago. It doesn't take a whole lot of know how to take great pictures. It does take creativity, patience, and a willingness to learn how to use your equipment and a stride to try new things and new techniques. Its the photographers who are unwilling to change who lose jobs. Face it, some people just have a knack for photography. I know a few people on here who have not done it for long and are awesome at it.




well said :thumbup:


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.
> 
> Need me to shoot your son/daughter playing spots? Buy my a 70-200 f/2.8 and I'll shoot all year long.
> 
> Need shots of your family? It'll cost you an 85mm f/1.4.


 


Ok so what do you do when you get every lens? LOL


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.
> 
> Need me to shoot your son/daughter playing spots? Buy my a 70-200 f/2.8 and I'll shoot all year long.
> 
> Need shots of your family? It'll cost you an 85mm f/1.4.


HOLY CRAP!!! CAN YOU DO THAT?!?!!? :lmao:

thats a great idea. hahahhaha


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## PhotoXopher (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> N0YZE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.
> ...



It starts hitting Craigslist and the For Sale section here


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> N0YZE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.
> ...




charge for bodies, lighting, flashes, tripods, reflectors, backdrops, etc...

the possibilities are endless


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> N0YZE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to start a new business model and just shoot for equipment.
> ...



By then, you would be good enough that a body upgrade is in order.


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## KmH (Aug 9, 2009)

It's not a new business model.....:thumbup: I think the 3rd guy to ever buy a camera back in 1863 added to his gear that way.


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## UUilliam (Aug 9, 2009)

HeY iTs ScOTtY said:


> You guys all make me laugh. For those of you that are mad at people who buy a camera and start a business just makes me think you're scared of them taking business from you. I know this girl that lives in California who bought a camera to take pictures or her kids. Her friends saw them and then wanted her to take pictures of their kids. Now she makes about 90,000 a year taking pictures of children. This was about 4 years ago. It doesn't take a whole lot of know how to take great pictures. It does take creativity, patience, and a willingness to learn how to use your equipment and a stride to try new things and new techniques. Its the photographers who are unwilling to change who lose jobs. Face it, some people just have a knack for photography. I know a few people on here who have not done it for long and are awesome at it.



I'm not mad at the people who buy a camera for personal use then somehow get into business via things like that, 
What I am against is people hearing "yeah photography has money to be made in it" then they go "ooooh money       buy camera click sell"
in otherwords, they purchase a camera for the Sole purpose of making money unlike MOST of us here who buy the camera as a hobby but use our hobby to fun our hobby and lifestyle.

What gets me more than Noobs earning money for their bad products is people who complain they aren't making money (im speaking about the noobs who know nothing of ISO and aperture, whitebalance shutter speed etc...)

also it's okay bitteraspects no problems 
but i currently don't offer any photography services as i dont feel I am ready to offer people my work as I personally dont feel it will please the consumer.

And noyze, Good idea 
Well... essentially that is what the money pays for but hey.. if they pay you with the gear = more gear for you to use to shoot for them


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## manaheim (Aug 9, 2009)

All I see is lots of barking and growling...


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

Then you can shoot for Studio Rent???? LOL 

That is what you can do....

Sit on a busy corner with a sign that says will shoot for food!   and take people's picture right there and give them a website where they can order it from!  LOL 

Call it HOMELESS Photographers.com!


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

manaheim said:


> All I see is lots of barking and growling...



So? Didn't you start an HDR controversy yourself recently?

Yes, it may have been a joke but you knew full well it would end up just like this thread. It's the nature of the human beast


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

Kill the BEAST!!!  I have a Dark Beast inside of me!! LOL   Ok I have been watching Dexter on Showtime


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> LOL   Ok I have been watching Dexter on Showtime



Just over a month to go!

(Actually, _exactly_ a month after my birthday.  )


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## Jeffro (Aug 9, 2009)

great show and I think this thread is dieing down now!!! LOL


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> great show and I think this thread is dieing down now!!! LOL



No problem, I'll throw some oil on the fire. :lmao:


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> great show and I think this thread is dieing down now!!! LOL



cant let that happen.

quick...

nikon vs canon!


BAHAHAHAHAHH


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## Josh66 (Aug 9, 2009)

bitteraspects said:


> quick...
> 
> nikon vs canon!
> 
> ...



Canon.

Next question.

:lmao:


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> bitteraspects said:
> 
> 
> > quick...
> ...



damn, that was a quick end to that.
im out of stuff to argue about


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## Samanax (Aug 9, 2009)

bitteraspects said:


> quick...
> 
> nikon vs canon!


*Leica!*


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## bitteraspects (Aug 9, 2009)

Samanax said:


> bitteraspects said:
> 
> 
> > quick...
> ...



sorry uFail


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## manaheim (Aug 9, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > All I see is lots of barking and growling...
> ...


 
No I posted a reasonable post that everyone lost their minds about.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Aug 10, 2009)

manaheim said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...



:lmao:    :lmao:


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Aug 10, 2009)

manaheim said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...



:lmao:    :lmao:


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## thenikonguy (Aug 10, 2009)

i think so people missed my point.. i'm totally fine with people starting businesses.. i think its great.. the thing that bugs me is when people buy a camera, take their first few shots.. then start a business.. its wrong!


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## benlonghair (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> i think so people missed my point.. i'm totally fine with people starting businesses.. i think its great.. the thing that bugs me is when people buy a camera, take their first few shots.. then start a business.. its wrong!



That's all well and good. However, as a hobbiest, I'm looking to sell photos. Not photo services, but photos I've taken for myself. 

Gear is friggin expensive and I'm not independently wealthy, or even close. If I could sell a few photos and buy myself a new piece of glass, or a tripod, or pretty much anything, you better believe I'm gonna do it. If 'pros' don't like it, they can go screw. 

I think there's room in the market for both expensive pros and cheap semi-pros.


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## linpelk (Aug 10, 2009)

The topic of this thread is what I've been struggling with personally.  I am the typical "mom with a camera".  I got my first dslr after the birth of my first child 4 years ago.  I have spent a lot of time learning how to use my camera.  It is a HOBBY for me.  However, I see other photographers out there doing EXACTLY what I am doing and are making money off of it.  My husband downright REFUSES to buy me anymore equipment.  I will NEVER be able to upgrade to a full sensor camera unless I start making some money.  I have a friend who started her photography business with mediocre pictures and she is now BOOKED OUT for several months.  She is learning and getting better from all of this experience (and she just bought a 1d mkii and my heart just sank with jealousy) I feel like, in some ways, I'm missing the boat.  I have lots of friends who keep asking me to take pictures (I have 7 that are waiting for me to figure out days that work..) and it is impacting my family.  I am having to PAY a babysitter to go take pictures for free.  I love doing it, but at what point do you stop doing it for free and START a Frickin business?


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## PhotoXopher (Aug 10, 2009)

linpelk said:


> at what point do you stop doing it for free and START a Frickin business?



When you're ready and confident enough.

Sounds like you are, on both counts.


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## Overread (Aug 10, 2009)

N0YZE said:


> linpelk said:
> 
> 
> > at what point do you stop doing it for free and START a Frickin business?
> ...



I agree - all pros had to start somewhere and most didn't start anywhere near their "prime" in photography. Oh they were good, good enough to make a result that people were prepared to pay for and that is what made them a pro - that along with some good marketing and business skills (not underselling themselve and such).

Infact most pros I know will freely admit there are whole areas of photography they have little to no idea of and many won't even attempt to say that they are as good as they can possibly be - they are still learners too . 
Even the mighty Zark Arias won't know it all at 56 years old
Zack Arias - Atlanta based editorial music photographer » Transform :: A short film for ScottKelby.com

Everyone has to start somewhere - there is no golden rule for where this is save when your ready to do so


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 10, 2009)

linpelk said:


> The topic of this thread is what I've been struggling with personally.  I am the typical "mom with a camera".  I got my first dslr after the birth of my first child 4 years ago.  I have spent a lot of time learning how to use my camera.  It is a HOBBY for me.  However, I see other photographers out there doing EXACTLY what I am doing and are making money off of it.  My husband downright REFUSES to buy me anymore equipment.  I will NEVER be able to upgrade to a full sensor camera unless I start making some money.  I have a friend who started her photography business with mediocre pictures and she is now BOOKED OUT for several months.  She is learning and getting better from all of this experience (and she just bought a 1d mkii and my heart just sank with jealousy) I feel like, in some ways, I'm missing the boat.  I have lots of friends who keep asking me to take pictures (I have 7 that are waiting for me to figure out days that work..) and it is impacting my family.  I am having to PAY a babysitter to go take pictures for free.  I love doing it, but at what point do you stop doing it for free and START a Frickin business?



No matter what anybody says, you start whenever you want. There's competition in every business and people who can't deal with that maybe should not be in business. As the saying goes: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Cheers. Go for it. It sounds to me like you are ready.


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## Gaerek (Aug 10, 2009)

This is what's great about a free market. It won't take long for these people who don't know what they're doing to get a reputation and be out of business. I mean, I know if I go to a professional for work, I want to see, at the very least, a portfolio of some of their work. That's how my wife and I chose our wedding photographer, we liked what her portfolio looked like. Someone who doesn't know what they're doing won't have a portfolio (or it will be very lacking) and they won't get many clients.


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## Sachphotography (Aug 10, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> I wonder if a guy with really great photos has a kinda crappy site should lose business but a guy with a really nice site and crappy picture would get the business? Just a thought?



JEffro... So which am I?


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## Soocom1 (Aug 10, 2009)

The real problem is that this culture of ours has moved away from the concept of EARNING, and has moved to INTITELMENT. Ergo, many people think they have a pro end camera, and boom... They are a pro. I have seen this mentality a million times, and not just in photography.  It is fostered by a certain group of people, without the pre-curser of&#8230; first LEARN... then open business. 
I have full encouragement in wanting to stand on your own, but for many it&#8217;s the allure of quick easy money. The think that because the camera does most of the work, voila, they can shoot and cash in. This is a concept not promulgated by, but defiantly NOT discouraged by the manufacturers because it sells cameras. 
Years ago, my wife started into the mail order cheapie stuff from a certain company that Tom Bossley does ads for, and I when the stuff came in (propaganda, videos, and a bunch of forms) all for only $350.00, I hit the roof.  So I told her, no mas until she can prove to me that there is a market, and that it is sustainable, and she understands business. End result: now she sells her own home made stuff, has her own business, and actually sells her jewelry. But not until after two years at a community college in Business Administration classes, and HTML courses.  
I started mine, but had the misfortunate experience of having opened just when the economy took its first nose dive in 2006. (Gas prices hit, and people cancelled because they couldn&#8217;t afford me and the gas at the same time.) I was also working at an extreme disadvantage of having a regular job that conflicted with other&#8217;s schedules.  Lesson learned. 
I have nothing against opening a business, but I too fell pray to that mentality and got burned.


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## bitteraspects (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> i think so people missed my point.. i'm totally fine with people starting businesses.. i think its great.. the thing that bugs me is when people buy a camera, take their first few shots.. then start a business.. its wrong!



why is it wrong?
because you suck and youve been doing it longet then them?
because theyre making money in a field you think youre better at?
what is wrong with it?

ANYONE can pick up a GE license and start a business. (and not only for photography). but their work will determine weather they get payed or not, and in what amount.
as will yours.
crying on the internet is not going to bring you more business. in fact, its things like this that are the reason the "n00b" is getting work and you arent. all this time could have been put into effective marketing, rather then crying on a message board.


step your game up, and stop worrying about the next guy.


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## bitteraspects (Aug 10, 2009)

Soocom1 said:


> The real problem is that this culture of ours has moved away from the concept of EARNING, and has moved to INTITELMENT. Ergo, many people think they have a pro end camera, and boom... They are a pro. I have seen this mentality a million times, and not just in photography.  It is fostered by a certain group of people, without the pre-curser of&#8230; first LEARN... then open business.



fun fact time...

never finished high school:
Walt Disney 
George Washington 
Liza Minelli
Abe Lincoln
Thomas Edison

never finished to college:
Steven Spielberg
Harry Truman
Bill Gates
Henry Ford
Gandhi
Hitler
Pancho Villa
Andrew Jackson
John Rockefellr *(first BILLIONARE)*
Michael Dell (founder of dell computers)
AND MANY MORE!

but youre right... people should go to school for their craft, then move on to a business... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## manaheim (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> i think so people missed my point.. i'm totally fine with people starting businesses.. i think its great.. the thing that bugs me is when people buy a camera, take their first few shots.. then start a business.. its wrong!


 
<chuckle>

I once worked for this guy... he ran a pretty successful IT consulting business with a few guys working for him (me included) and this very UNsuccessful graphic design and printing firm.

He did so many things wrong... he even convinced his IT customers they needed to buy copies of photoshop so he could steal the serial numbers from them before delivering the product so he could use it for his graphics team.

It was crazy.

Anyway, at some point I  left the company and figured "This guy is gonna go down in FLAMES and I'm gonna enjoy watching it."

Not only did it not ever happen, but he had some pretty extreme measure of success... still inexplicable.  His services were more expensive than his competitors, he did lesser work, was obnoxious to work with as a customer, etc. (I know some people who worked with him, or tried...)

Eventually he sold his business off for a TIDY profit and is currently relaxing with his family and working on his house and giving the occasional business seminar.

This guy was all kinds of wrong.  Didn't stop him from  being a roaring success.

I wouldn't necessarily suggest emulating it, but you might wanna think about it for a bit.


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## thenikonguy (Aug 10, 2009)

bitteraspects said:


> why is it wrong?
> because you suck and youve been doing it longet then them?
> because theyre making money in a field you think youre better at?
> what is wrong with it?



what the hell is your problem guy.. this started out as a friendly conversation.. your the only one here being an ass about this.. I don't suck.. theres no way you can know if I do, because I havent posted photos here, other than some that were just messing around trying lighting..  get a life, and stop trying to call people out on the internet..


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## Soocom1 (Aug 10, 2009)

George Washington 
Abe Lincoln
Thomas Edison
Andrew Jackson

The above mentioned had an education equivalant to that of a current colege level education. In those times, thier education had a classicle tent to it. Geroge Washington was educated in classic Greek and latin philosophy. 
Lincolin was taught rudamentery education in various formats all throughout the fronteier. He was also tought some aspects of again Latin and some greek. 
Again a similar story with Edison. Also Jackson.



Harry Truman

His mother influanced him greatly with an education level that far exceeded today's standards. Including music, reading and history... Again at a level far higher than today. 

And I can go on.. Primary reason I say this, is because all of the aboved mentioned people and the others you cite were all classicaly educated, and with the concept of personal self worth, not self esteem, and were taought that they were owed NOTHING and had to EARN everything. 

I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind Ozzy also never graduated, made a million dollars, married a hottie wife, and now is in retirement all before the age 220. 
How many high school boys and girls used THAT excuse to drop from high school???? too many for me to count.


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## Jeffro (Aug 10, 2009)

Sachphotography said:


> Jeffro said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if a guy with really great photos has a kinda crappy site should lose business but a guy with a really nice site and crappy picture would get the business? Just a thought?
> ...





I PLEAD THE 5TH  LOL


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 10, 2009)

Jeffro said:


> Sachphotography said:
> 
> 
> > Jeffro said:
> ...



:lmao:


----------



## choudhrysaab (Aug 10, 2009)

my wife went to Sears and got a family portrait done. honestly speaking the end result wasn't really what we paid for ($100) for few shots. on the other hand I do take pictures of my daughter (which was the intention for family portrait) I get much better results (not only my personal opinion but opinion of others as well) so if someone sees my work and asks me to shoot their Special Day for them then why not? they know what i'm capable of by looking at my photos so if they're agreeing to that then its their choice.

any extra money coming my way is welcomed and i'll obviously be using that money to get better equipment (which you may not agree with as you say that its not the equipment that takes good shots).

here's my 2cents.


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## UUilliam (Aug 10, 2009)

As I said.
If someone else asks you to do something for them, Sure go ahead

what im against is people realising there is money in the photography business without knowing anything about photography or the prices that it costs...
they go buy "cheap-o-professional-big-camera" and point and click then print at Asda (Walmart)
that is what I'm against.
I think photography should have thought and feeling behind every shot.
not just "Ima make **** loadsa cash fur this : "


----------



## thenikonguy (Aug 10, 2009)

UUilliam said:


> As I said.
> If someone else asks you to do something for them, Sure go ahead
> 
> what im against is people realising there is money in the photography business without knowing anything about photography or the prices that it costs...
> ...



this is EXACTLY what i've been trying to say.. i dont care if your friend wants you to do photos for them, go ahead.. I did HUNDREDS of these when I first got into photography.. but, don't go out advertising that your a photographer, and advertise that you know what your doing, and that your quality is great... get the experience first.. (by shooting for your friends and family)


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## choudhrysaab (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> this is EXACTLY what i've been trying to say.. i dont care if your friend wants you to do photos for them, go ahead.. I did HUNDREDS of these when I first got into photography.. but, don't go out advertising that your a photographer, and advertise that you know what your doing, and that your quality is great... get the experience first.. (by shooting for your friends and family)


so much anger and rage ... someone needs a big cold glass of Kool Aid


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Aug 10, 2009)

UUilliam said:


> I think photography should have thought and feeling behind every shot.
> not just "Ima make **** loadsa cash fur this : "



Let's get real here. For most commercial photographers the main thought is to make a sale and the feeling is that of the client. Some photographers have managed to sell their own thoughts and feelings in their photos but those are a minority. Lucky minority but still a minority.

I related in another thread my experience attending a workshop by the top US wedding photog. Except for the faces, every wedding looked exactly like the next one. The guy brought in a studio (why deal with natural light when you can control studio light so much easier) and the set up was always the same. His only thoughts, as far as I'm concerned, were directed towards making it easier on him. And his only feeling seemed to be for the green coming in.

He didn't show anything but the formals. The rest, as he put it, doesn't sell so don't worry too much about it.


----------



## itznfb (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> UUilliam said:
> 
> 
> > As I said.
> ...



if these people are cutting into your business then maybe you got into the business a little too early yourself?
i don't know your work and i'm not saying anything bad about it but these people may make some minimal impact for a short duration but if you feel they are majorly impacting your life then you're in the wrong business.

the fact is everyone is entitled to pursue whatever they feel like pursuing. and there are people willing to pay them for what they think they are good at then so be it. some people feel like there should be feeling behind every shot and thats great... but a lot of people don't feel that way.


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## ANDS! (Aug 10, 2009)

> but, don't go out advertising that your a photographer, and advertise that you know what your doing, and that your quality is great...



How do you know its not?  I bet I can put a camera in the hands of a newb, and they could take a better or comparable photograph than some of the stuff thats "pro" quality.  

All of these "rants" or whatever all have the same undercurrent to it:  "I want to validate the time it took me to build up my work, so I will make sure the bar is raised for others. . ."

Whether someone can produce quality work has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they followed some arbitrary protocol; it has everything to do with whether or not their work is quality, whether someone will pay for their work, and whether they have the business acumen/common sense to succeed.  Period.


----------



## shortpballer (Aug 10, 2009)

ANDS! said:


> > but, don't go out advertising that your a photographer, and advertise that you know what your doing, and that your quality is great...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree to this statement!!!! Great reply :thumbup:


----------



## HeY iTs ScOTtY (Aug 10, 2009)

Great reply - Some people are just born naturals and shouldn't be told they have to go to college or follow some type of predetermined plan to become successful.


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## In2daBlue (Aug 10, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> i'm sorry, but in a small town like mine, I DO loose business to crappy "photographers" i would say about 75% of my business comes from online advertising.. sites like Kijiji.. and, joe crappy photoguy is also advertising on kijiji.. he is advertising "why pay high prices for photographers, when you can get great photos for less" i'm advertising "don't be fooled by cheap photographers.. " then, i send him an email posing as someone to book him.. i see his shots, they SUCK, and YES, he is charging a lot less than me.. but guess what.. "fred" sees the 2 ads, and sends cheap face an email, sees the pics, and is relitively happy with them.. so, he books him.. he doesnt even send me an email to say "can i see your samples" so, he's not seeing the better quality of my photos.. he's not seeing the time put into my photos...
> 
> so am I loosing bussiness to cheap no name business' that only last a few months.. yes.. i am.. does it have anything to do with my skill.. no, it has everything to do with advertising.. people see cheap, and the guy says "i have a DSLR" so they assume he's good..



Well, it appears that "cheap face" as you call him has got something going for him then. Business, in photography and other areas, is mostly about your ability to advertise and solicit customers. On a secondary level, it's about being good at what you do. If "cheap face" is soliciting business with an inferior product and discounted rates than he is playing the game well. If his customers think his work samples are adequate for their needs than he is providing them a service for a price he feels is fair. What's wrong with that?

I get tired of people on here talking about how the hobbyists in the field are dampening their business. It's true, no doubt about it and will continue to become more true as camera technology gets better and cheaper. But, that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for high-quality photography. The market will just be squeezed with more people offering high-quality photography and thus prices will inevitably go down. 

Market your skills and your price. Not everyone will be willing to pay your rates and will be happy to take "cheap face" up on his rates and product. Others, who have more money to spend and the desire for top-notch photography, will gladly pay your rates and will pass on "cheap face" in a heartbeat. But, if you're going after the same cliental as he is than you will lose every time unless you drop your rates. For, in the end, most of the people who are looking for photography are looking for the best price possible and are willing to sacrifice the best product possible to get it. "I like this guy's work better but cheap face over here has a much better price and I think his images will serve our needs," is what is being uttered more and more these days by businesses. 

Wedding photography, photojournalism, high-profile advertising campaigns are areas where you will be able to find the higher paying clients who are more concerned about product than price. But, selling Web photography is not. When you're scraping the bottom of the barrel you are going to run into competition that charges pennies to your dollar. 

P.S. Search my posts and you will see that I never down talk someone on their gear as I feel it's rude and because I believe gear doesn't make a good photographer. But, for someone who is complaining about consumers breaking into your professional market it's amazing to see your line up of consumer gear. Just a thought.


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## ShotwellPhotography (Aug 10, 2009)

I do hope to one day have my own photography business, but I know I'm not ready just cause i have a good camera, I know I still have a lot to learn. I have asked on this and other forums how to go about it, and I am always told to become an assistant and learn from the pro. But it seems with the current times, at least in Phoenix, that there aren't many openings for that. So with out those positions available to learn from a pro, these overly eager photographers may feel it is his or her only way.


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## benlonghair (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't sell my photos yet. However, I am a salesman, and here's what I know. I work for a very small drywall products yard. Literally 1/4mi away, as the crow flies, is a Lowes. We were worried that it would hurt us, because they buy products much cheaper than us. 

Well, I get people saying "Oh, I'll just go get it at Lowes, it's much cheaper there" and I say go ahead. The next time they need sheetrock, wether they're picking it up or we're delivering, they come to us, even if we're $2 more per sheet. Why? Value. We know the product better, we have better selection, our deliveries are professional and on-time and where they're supposed to be and people appreciate that. Sure, there are people out there that price is the most important thing, but there are more people who feel that overall value is more important. Those are the people we look for and any pro photographer should be looking for. Let the others go, because you'll never make them happy.


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## Actor (Aug 27, 2009)

KmH has this quote in his signature:

"Making money from your photography is more about business skill, than photography skill."

Nothing could be more true.

Take two guys.  Let's call them Tom and Dick.  Tom has a BFA and is an excellent photographer but knows nothing about business.  Dick has an MBA but knows zip about photography.  They both decide to go into the photography business.

Tom buys a copy of _How to Succeed in Business.

_Dick buys a copy of _Digital Photography for Dummies._  Then he writes up a business plan.  The last thing he does is buy a camera.

If only one of these guys is going to succeed, my money's on Dick.


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2009)

^^^   Ok, that's a lovely little fable, but since both people are made up characters it doesn't really prove the point.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I could make up any kind of story with two fictitious characters to "prove" a point, and it wouldn't actually make it any more valid than if I just said it was my opinion.


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## Dao (Aug 27, 2009)

Totally agree with Photography and Business are different animals.  Don't mix up.  

Personally, I believe photographer is a profession, not a business (like medical doctor).  To start a photography business, you do not need to be a photographer. (You can hire someone to do that)

Just like you do not need to know how to cook to own a restaurant.  You do not need to know how to refine oil to own a gas station.  But you need to know how to run a business to own a business though.

If you cannot make money with your business, do not blame others.  It is a free market (assuming the market is not shrinking), you may want to know why you are not competitive. It is not other people steal your business, it is the market think the other are better.

But why people choose others, not yours?  Think about that.  That could be many reasons.


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## fiveoboy01 (Aug 27, 2009)

I can relate to this a little bit.  I own a landscape maintenance business, going on it's 5th year. 

Landscape maintenance is a cut-throat business and there is always the "lowballer" and "guy with the mower" running around and tossing out cheap prices to get work.

I NEVER worry about these guys, for several reasons:

90% of them can't manage a business and they'll be OUT of business shortly.
They aren't insured, something happens, they get sued.  Out of business.
No license/seller's permit, don't pay taxes.  Get nailed.  Out of business.
They are un-reliable, or rude.  Out of business.
Their quality of work stinks.  They lose the customer to people like me.
They're un-professional in appearance and demeanor.  See above.
The customer who chooses their service provider based on price alone is a customer I don't want, as I'll lose them anyways to the next guy who comes along and cuts my throat on price. 
People who want QUALITY work will pay more for it, this is a fact.

Now of course a few of them don't meet the above criteria, and they become successful, and good for them.  

I NEVER worry about competition.  You guys who whine about "joe blow" photographer with 2 months of experience, step your game up and be better than them, take that energy and put it towards your own business instead of worrying about what the other guys is doing.  "Mr. Cheap" will ALWAYS be around, there's no way around it.  Deal with it instead of complaining.


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## Actor (Aug 28, 2009)

manaheim said:


> ^^^   Ok, that's a lovely little fable, but since both people are made up characters it doesn't really prove the point.
> 
> Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I could make up any kind of story with two fictitious characters to "prove" a point, and it wouldn't actually make it any more valid than if I just said it was my opinion.


It's not a fable.  It's a parable.  There's a difference.  A parable is not intended to prove a point but to illustrate it.

Jesus told parables.  The Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son were made up characters.  The parables illustrated his teaching.  They were not meant to prove that following them would get you to heaven.

So, yes, you're right.  It's just my opinion.  The parable illustrates my point, clarifies it and hopefully makes the reader more inclined to agree with me.  But in doesn't prove, nor was it intended to prove, anything.


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## itznfb (Aug 28, 2009)

^^ wow. It's been a while since I've seen Jesus thrown into an e-rgument.


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## snaggle (Aug 28, 2009)

I dont see a problem with people trying to make a buck, sooner or later they will fall flat on there face and the pros can be there to pick up some of the empty contracts. 

I have been in to photography for years now, with a P&S, but have only statred to look it to it about 6 month ago, when I bought my Canon. I would not dream of going and doing a wedding or something righ now, but once I get enough good shot together I want to have a web site to sell them.

Am I wrong for trying to sell my photos? No. I am going to take some customers from the pros? Yes. Am I going to loose any sleep over this? No. Are some people going to ***** at me? Yes.

All I am trying to do is get some money for better gear and see what people think of my photos. I would tell any one I know to do this to help cover the cost of the hobby, it is not cheap and not every one is made of money.


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## thenikonguy (Aug 28, 2009)

I thought this thread died... but, I guess not.. 

First off, in regards to the message above me.. I have absoutly no problem with someone going out, taking photos of STUFF, and selling those photos, that is a great way to make some extra money for gear, and its a wonderful confidence boost, because someone wants to have your photo of "that thing" on their fridge, thats not really what i have my beef with.. its the people who sell themselves as a "wedding photograper" or a "portrait photographer".. really the main one that scares me is the ones who try to become wedding photographers.. 

*Heres a message I just sent to someone who sent me a PM.. I think it sums up my feelings on the issue:*

the real pros are safe, but the thing that I find in my area (where there are only a couple real pros, and a *PILE* of "soccer moms with DSLR's" the thing that happens is, "Joe" goes with the soccer mom to do the photos FIRST, then realizes that "you get what you pay for" THEN Joe comes to me.. In all honesty (and I know most people don't know what honesty is these days) most of my rant about fake pros, is TOTALLY out of respect for the client, who is getting screwed.. and I know that no one is going to believe me when I say that, but, I don't do photography to make my millions, I do make money at it, and it is to subsidize the fact that my job does NOT pay well.. so when I say I am honestly frustrated with fake pros our of respect for the client, I really do mean it.

I HATE it when a client comes to me and says "yea, we tried "this person" and they had a nice camera and a nice website, so I thought they knew what they were doing"

It's a bonus for me, because by them coming to me after the fact says something about my work, but, I really hate that they have to learn the lesson the hard way... especially when it comes to wedding photos, which is the stories I hear the most. I can't tell you how many shoots I've done, 2 weeks after someones wedding because they went with "soccer mom" because she was cheaper, but none of the photos were very good.. so they we have to create a fake environment, so they can have something to remember their "special day"

_disclaimer: this message is by no means meant to offend soccer moms, its just the word that came to my mind (and its also the ones around my area that run "photography business' "_


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## itznfb (Aug 28, 2009)

No. You thought right. It died.


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## thenikonguy (Aug 28, 2009)

itznfb said:


> No. You thought right. It died.



GOOD, i really don't want to open that bag again!!

thanks for confirming it for me!


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 28, 2009)

No, it didn't quite die. And you just revived it. Once more.

"its a wonderful confidence boost, because someone wants to have your photo of "that thing" on their fridge"  WOW, what an amazing snob you are. Especially for someone who only shows his funny/test/who knows-what photos on this site. How are we supposed to know if we should even take you seriously?


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## Nolan (Aug 28, 2009)

Just focus on the art of photography and let every thing else fall into place after you master and hone your skills.


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## Plato (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm fascinated by the individuals that are concerned about losing business to Joe Blow.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's better than you give him credit for.  Maybe, just maybe, you're not as good as you think you are despite the "I'll pat your back if you pat mine" critiques on the forum.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's not as good as you are but he's "good enough" to satisfy the client and at a much lower price.  Maybe, just maybe, he's simply a better marketer than you are.

I see that many posters list their camera equipment as part of their signature.  I wonder why... is it intended to impress other forum members?  I also wonder how many of these individuals list their camera equipment on their web sites to impress potential clients.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 28, 2009)

Plato said:


> I'm fascinated by the individuals that are concerned about losing business to Joe Blow.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's better than you give him credit for.  Maybe, just maybe, you're not as good as you think you are despite the "I'll pat your back if you pat mine" critiques on the forum.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's not as good as you are but he's "good enough" to satisfy the client and at a much lower price.  Maybe, just maybe, he's simply a better marketer than you are.
> 
> I see that many posters list their camera equipment as part of their signature.  I wonder why... is it intended to impress other forum members?  I also wonder how many of these individuals list their camera equipment on their web sites to impress potential clients.



:thumbup:

Wow! what a response to this BS. Let's not forget some people even list the kind of filters they have :lmao:


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## thenikonguy (Aug 28, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> No, it didn't quite die. And you just revived it. Once more.
> 
> "its a wonderful confidence boost, because someone wants to have your photo of "that thing" on their fridge"  WOW, what an amazing snob you are. Especially for someone who only shows his funny/test/who knows-what photos on this site. How are we supposed to know if we should even take you seriously?


well that's now at all the reply I expected to get from that particular statement.. How does I make me a snob I merely state that someone wanting to buy your photos boosts your confidence.. Does it not? I do t think there was anything wrong with the statement... Nothing about it makes me a snob... It's a fact..

And I don't post my studio shots because I don't think it's right to do that to my clients... unless I tell them I'm posting the. I don't... From time to time when I like a photo enough to add it to my portfolio I will ask them .. But most of them go to their private gallery... And I have posted some shots just not a lot


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## thenikonguy (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh and I didn't revive it.. Snaggle did.. And I also received a pm from someone about it today...

Sorry for all the spelling/grammar errors in this and my last post .. I'm posting from my phone...


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## Nolan (Aug 28, 2009)

Plato said:


> I'm fascinated by the individuals that are concerned about losing business to Joe Blow.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's better than you give him credit for.  Maybe, just maybe, you're not as good as you think you are despite the "I'll pat your back if you pat mine" critiques on the forum.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's not as good as you are but he's "good enough" to satisfy the client and at a much lower price.  Maybe, just maybe, he's simply a better marketer than you are.
> 
> I see that many posters list their camera equipment as part of their signature.  I wonder why... is it intended to impress other forum members?  I also wonder how many of these individuals list their camera equipment on their web sites to impress potential clients.



Well maybe there is more to then that then you think. For example I list my equipment on the fourm to give people an idea of what i have to work with and what i may have used in the photograph. I dont know where i am going with this but you get it, right?


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## thenikonguy (Aug 28, 2009)

As the OP of this thread am I allowed to ask a mod to lock it.. I don't want to be the one who starts a thread that is going to make peopl argue over the Internet


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## Plato (Aug 28, 2009)

Nolan said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > I'm fascinated by the individuals that are concerned about losing business to Joe Blow.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's better than you give him credit for.  Maybe, just maybe, you're not as good as you think you are despite the "I'll pat your back if you pat mine" critiques on the forum.  Maybe, just maybe, Joe's not as good as you are but he's "good enough" to satisfy the client and at a much lower price.  Maybe, just maybe, he's simply a better marketer than you are.
> ...



Why?


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## Nolan (Aug 28, 2009)

Plato said:


> Nolan said:
> 
> 
> > Plato said:
> ...


The question should be why not? As for why its just a tidbit of info that maybe useful in what ever circumstance.


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## Plato (Aug 28, 2009)

Nolan said:


> Plato said:
> 
> 
> > Nolan said:
> ...



I have three Lowepro camera bags.  Is that also a "tidbit of info that may be useful in whatever circumstance?"  Perhaps I should advertise my photographic services with that tidbit?


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## Plato (Aug 28, 2009)

thenikonguy said:


> As the OP of this thread am I allowed to ask a mod to lock it.. I don't want to be the one who starts a thread that is going to make peopl argue over the Internet



If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.


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## thenikonguy (Aug 29, 2009)

I can take the heat... I'm usually the one starting the fire.. Or at least fueling it... I'm just tired of this battle.. We already argued through this thread for 6 pages... It's time for something new


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## manaheim (Aug 29, 2009)

Easiest way to stop the conversation is to stop responding to it. 

Oh, wait...


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## robdavis305 (Aug 29, 2009)

ive been shooting my with my camera for about 2yrs and have gotten some great pics. i shot my sisters wedding and they turned out great, then her friend saw them and had me shoot her wedding but there is still so much to learn. ive just recently started taking some photo classes at a technical college to learn all that i can. ive just recently upgraded to a d90 from a d40 and man what a differance it makes. im still learning what all this camera can do


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## JamesMason (Aug 29, 2009)

Ive studied for 2 years, going on to my 3 year of a degree now after that im gonna assist for a while. It sucks not earning, but i hope im doing right by investing my time into becoming good at what i do before i start out. I hope i run my own business (i have even studied for a BND in business) but there is no way i feel ready yet. 3 or 4 more years, maybe


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