# When to do something for free



## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

I thought I would open a debate about when or if you should do something for free. Although I make a very good living from photography, I still sometimes do things for free. 

Before anyone tells me "doing stuff for free devalues your work and status", I would like to mention two business models that did ok out of it. Facebook and google. You might say that they are different to us, but are they and what could we learn from them as photographers? 

Personally I do free shoots if..

1: They will open up new contacts or areas I have not been introduced to.

2: It's for a charity auction. 

3: I want to try out new concepts that I will later sell to the wider public

4: It would be good publicity

Your thoughts?


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## KmH (Feb 26, 2012)

I would say you're wrong about Facebook and Google both giving something away for free. Both make their money (boatloads of money) selling the information they gather about their user's to advertisers. Their users are the ones giving something away, content and personal information.

TPF isn't giving away anything for free either. TPF sells advertising space, and forum members provide free content. Supporting members pay to provide free content.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 26, 2012)

I agree with Keith! FREE? Google and Facebook? Not hardly! While WE don't pay for the services.. we provide the content that allows them to make millions of dollars in advertising and other avenues! SO yes.. we do PAY.. just not cash!


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## 12sndsgood (Feb 26, 2012)

so then instead of facebook and google being free consider it more a trade for


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## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

They both started giving away the service for free then made money after buy selling advertising. 

What I am saying is you can make money from other revenues.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 26, 2012)

I will let a company use a photo as long as the credit I get in return is exposed to a large enough audience, or if I have a reasonable chance of getting some return from the use.  Unfortunately 9 times out of 10 there is no return on the use, but I still do it on occation, as it is the 1 out of 10 that still generates business.  I don't shoot for free, my favourites are the "not for profit" groups that ask me, someone always makes money, usually the ones that are being paid to work for the "not for profit" group.


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## Overread (Feb 26, 2012)

Yes, but you've already got your client base sorted out (at least it sounds that way from how you describe your free offerings). The general "don't do it for free" advice is pitched directly to newbies on the market who often get trapped in the mindset that ANY work (no matter the pay) is work they should be doing. Which can quickly end up with them working many many hours, for very lowballing/free clients in the hope that (at some point) it will all take off. 

Of course once you've got your skills and your business running smooth you can choose to give your time away for free on your own terms - without endangering your earnings. Plus getting to that stage typically empowers you a little more to choosing clients who might promote your work or result in more paid work - not just in more free/lowpay work.

Edit - if I recall right wasn't facebook started based on a charge service for reconnecting old school friends? They paid their membership to join and then the group linked them up to old schools/teachers etc.. who had also joined the network - it only becoming "free" at a much later state/


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## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

I did start off growing my business by doing free shoots, followed by free shoots and one free print. Hand on my heart I only had a very very small handful who abused it. Most paid for more . 

I think it does come down what you are selling. Ie: they really want to buy the other images you took. Its also the way you sell them through your presentation.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 26, 2012)

Overread said:


> Yes, but you've already got your client base sorted out (at least it sounds that way from how you describe your free offerings). The general "don't do it for free" advice is pitched directly to newbies on the market who often get trapped in the mindset that ANY work (no matter the pay) is work they should be doing. Which can quickly end up with them working many many hours, for very lowballing/free clients in the hope that (at some point) it will all take off.
> 
> Of course once you've got your skills and your business running smooth you can choose to give your time away for free on your own terms - without endangering your earnings. Plus getting to that stage typically empowers you a little more to choosing clients who might promote your work or result in more paid work - not just in more free/lowpay work.
> 
> Edit - if I recall right wasn't facebook started based on a charge service for reconnecting old school friends? They paid their membership to join and then the group linked them up to old schools/teachers etc.. who had also joined the network - it only becoming "free" at a much later state/



Have to agree with what you have said. It is much easier to pick and choose what to do for free when the business is established.  I look at the free advertising side of it, but there are no guarentees that it will ever generate any income. Giving anything away for free still comes with a cost attached.


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## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

Ok 


Let's say you take 10 free shoots. You are confident that from that free shoot you are going to take at the very least ten amazing shots that the client will really want. You are now down to how long you have taken and what profit margins you make on each image You sell. From my studio it's £45 per digital image and starting from £15  for a 7x5 print depending on the type of shoot. The shoot is 30mins the viewing straight afterwards is another 30 mins. I can normally get an average of £100 per hour from this method.


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## Overread (Feb 26, 2012)

That isn't so much working for free - that sounds more like a free sitting session followed up by your (salesman mode) selling the product (the photos) to the client. Certainly that method works, you know you can draw people in with a "free photo shoot" and then sell them the product that you already know they want because they walked in and just spent 30mins-1 hour in your shop (few people will spend that much time and then walk away with nothing - even most of the tight penny pinchers will want at least one photo for their troubles). 

Further you've made the key step many newbies fail to, which is to set a value for your time based upon your costs and earning needs.


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## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> That isn't so much working for free - that sounds more like a free sitting session followed up by your (salesman mode) selling the product (the photos) to the client. Certainly that method works, you know you can draw people in with a "free photo shoot" and then sell them the product that you already know they want because they walked in and just spent 30mins-1 hour in your shop (few people will spend that much time and then walk away with nothing - even most of the tight penny pinchers will want at least one photo for their troubles).
> 
> Further you've made the key step many newbies fail to, which is to set a value for your time based upon your costs and earning needs.



This is a chat I would like people who are starting ,to read. It's something they don't teach at photography school but must be learnt if you want to make money in a studio.


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## CCericola (Feb 26, 2012)

Doing something for charity means you are donating whatever (services, prints) because you believe in the charity. If you are doing something for charity and are only concerned about what it can do for you then you are doing it for the WRONG reasons and should be ashamed of yourself. Good PR, new leads, etc...are a benefit but should not be expected. 

Ok that rant is over.

Ok, doing things for free. When you need something done (new concept,practice,marketing) there is nothing wrong with doing a free shoot. Would you rather pay for models? Persoanlly, I think free shoots should be calculated into your continuing education budget just like a class or seminar.

I'm sure there is something else I wanted to say, but the Oscars are getting ready to start and I want to watch them.


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## manaheim (Feb 26, 2012)

CCericola said:


> Doing something for charity means you are donating whatever (services, prints) because you believe in the charity. If you are doing something for charity and are only concerned about what it can do for you then you are doing it for the WRONG reasons and should be ashamed of yourself. Good PR, new leads, etc...are a benefit but should not be expected.
> 
> Ok that rant is over.



A little harsh, but I agree in principle and wondered at it myself when I was reading the original post.

That said, I'm glad OP posted this... I once thought you should never EVER do stuff for free, but as I've grown a bit I've realized that there really ARE some times to do it... that said, even when I do it for free I still make a $0 contract (discounted to $0) and give them an agreement.  I think people need to understand that there is a value associated with what you're doing and they need to understand that the rights of both parties still need to be minded and respected.

I've also learned... never charge family or close friends.  Ever.  Never do business with them, and never charge them.  If they want pictures ABSOLUTELY I will do them for them, but in no way will I take money from them for it ever again.  I thought with agreements and such this would be safe because everyone would know in advance what we were doing and why.

NO

FSCKING

WAY.

Don't do it.  Don't fool yourself.  Stay away.  WARNING, WILL ROBINSON!  DANGER!  DANGER!


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## katerolla (Feb 26, 2012)

I do agree with you, every company dose a little free service to benefit them, but what is ruing the photographic industry is cheap or free photographers, there is an examples in my the local internet trader.

FREE PREGNANCY PHOTO SHOOT WITH 10IMAGES ON DISC
FREE PREGNANCY PHOTO SHOOT WITH 10IMAGES ON DISC - Newcastle Region business services - Gumtree Newcastle Region Free Classifieds

Nothing wrong with that, they are just trying to get a portfolio together, except that this kind of adds are popping up every week, so after the free period why should the customer pay when they can go the next free photographer.


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## photoentrepreneur (Feb 26, 2012)

CCericola said:
			
		

> Doing something for charity means you are donating whatever (services, prints) because you believe in the charity. If you are doing something for charity and are only concerned about what it can do for you then you are doing it for the WRONG reasons and should be ashamed of yourself. Good PR, new leads, etc...are a benefit but should not be expected.
> 
> Ok that rant is over.
> 
> ...



The free ones to charity are because I like to help others. Where did I say otherwise?


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## KmH (Feb 27, 2012)

At the same time Google and Facebook flourished, many other dot.coms went down the drain. There is no doubt that many more start ups that work for free, fail than succeed.

I charged non-profits the same as I charged any other business. If I believed in what a charity is doing I gave a _personal _donation.

It used to blow my mind when the person at the non-profit I was negotiating with gots paid a higher yearly salary than I was able to make as a successful independent businessman. Did you know non-profit agencies are required by law to disclose financial information, including employee salaries, to the public.

Read more:  How to Find Non Profit Salaries | eHow.com How to Find Non Profit Salaries | eHow.com

By the way, non-profits are indeed allowed to make a profit, they just don't call it a profit. They call it a surplus, though there are rules that say what they can and can't do with that surplus.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Feb 27, 2012)

Yeah I know a non-profit nursing home her in Fl, the employees live GOOD on their incomes. Not to mention the place sponsors the one of the Rolex sailboat racing events off our coast


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## CMfromIL (Feb 27, 2012)

photoentrepreneur said:


> I thought I would open a debate about when or if you should do something for free. Although I make a very good living from photography, I still sometimes do things for free.
> 
> Before anyone tells me "doing stuff for free devalues your work and status", I would like to mention two business models that did ok out of it. Facebook and google. You might say that they are different to us, but are they and what could we learn from them as photographers?
> 
> ...



I would add this:

5:  When it is for a cause that you belive in, feel passionate about, and your pictures will make a difference.  Regardless of the clients ablity to pay.  (For example, taking pictures for a pet shelter that would directly result in animals being adopted vs being put down.  Most animal shelters are not going to be able to pay for this service.)

Sometimes it's not about what YOU gain from giving away your professional abilities but rather what those given that gift get from it.  Like doctors that participate in Doctors W/Out Borders.  They give a week or so of their professional medical ablities to a portion of the public that would never be able to afford it.  They get all warm and fuzzy, and johhy gets his hairlip/cateract/bow legs fixed.


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## MLeeK (Feb 27, 2012)

The answer is simple: When you WANT to. For whatever reason it is-charity, personal, whatever.


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## 12sndsgood (Feb 27, 2012)

might want to break this into two topics,  the for charity side, and the for business side.     


my plan starting out to build my portfolio after i get some more experience was going to be do the sitting for free and to charge them for the photos. so that they are getting a good deal. im getting the person to shoot to gain more experience but yet still get some money coming in.  i may be wrong and that may change before i get to that point, but thats why im reading stuff like this to help guide me.


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## andywag (Mar 4, 2012)

Here are is an extract from a post on another forum which highlights, at least to me, why you should never do "free" shoots.
Note "free" is NOT when you offer a no cost sitting and then sell the prints, neither is it when you do a "free" shoot in exchange for goods or services rather than cash.

_*Anyway for the past 2 years now I've  been doing friends and family for free just to learn my camera and I  enjoy photography. Now that I've gotten more serious and started to  invest I'm stuck in a situation where everyone loves the pictures I  takes and they're standing in line to take them but, I'm stuck with  nobody wanting to pay... even though I've published prices repeatidly.  They know what I charge but, then it gets really akward because nobody  wants to pay now because I've done it for free for so long. 


*_Why would "customers" who have been getting the service/goods for free then suddenly be prepared to pay?
It makes no difference if that customer is a mom wanting pictures of her kids or a magazine wanting images for publication.
If you have been supplying them for free in the past then that is exactly what they will want now and in the future.

I am afraid this "it will get you good exposure" or "work for free this time and we will pay next time" which is continually spouted is just total and utter rubbish.

It will get you exposure - as some mug who gives their work ago
The "next time" will never happen as they will move onto the next mug willing to listen to the false promises.

If you want to donate your services to a charity then fine, that is a donation and can be put against tax etc.
If you want to offer a "free" sitting then fine, that is a marketing tool which is made up for with the prints etc
If you want to offer a "free" image to a publication then a. you are a mug or b. you make sure that you absolutely get something in return.

You should NEVER work for free.


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## photospherix (Mar 5, 2012)

I agree with number 4. If I contact you about a new idea I want to try, it is on me.


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## DiskoJoe (Mar 5, 2012)

photoentrepreneur said:


> I thought I would open a debate about when or if you should do something for free. Although I make a very good living from photography, I still sometimes do things for free.
> 
> Before anyone tells me "doing stuff for free devalues your work and status", I would like to mention two business models that did ok out of it. Facebook and google. You might say that they are different to us, but are they and what could we learn from them as photographers?
> 
> ...



Both companies had something cool happening. So number one rule is make it cool enough and the money will flow in.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 6, 2012)

"*Anyway for the past 2 years now I've  been doing friends and family for free just to learn my camera and I  enjoy photography. Now that I've gotten more serious and started to  invest I'm stuck in a situation where everyone loves the pictures I  takes and they're standing in line to take them but, I'm stuck with  nobody wanting to pay... even though I've published prices repeatidly.  They know what I charge but, then it gets really akward because nobody  wants to pay now because I've done it for free for so long. "


*_my workaround for this is finding just one person who will let me shoot her allot. getting beter as i go. i dont want to do this for 20 people and have them all expecting to get things free. and shooting aquaintences. not friends. aquaintences are people i dont hang out with so its not just me hanging out with a buddy goofing off. when the acquaintence shows up im treating them as if they are a customer and shooting them as such. im also making them aware that this is a one or two time deal. that once the doors of the business opens up they will be charged for it. im trying to stay away from the photographing close friends. im not expecting my friends and aquaintences to be my paying customers. im going after a diffrent customer base and you have to market and advertise for that. i think if you go into this thinking your friends and family are going to be your customer your going to be let down quickly._


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## Kolander (Mar 6, 2012)

For publicity. I use to make a deal with beautiful/famous women: a free book for the right to show one of the pictures in my website.


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## Bossy (Mar 6, 2012)

I still shoot for free. I don't have any tax stuff set up, for one. And I'm not trying to build a clientelle here.


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