# I have no technical knowledge.. Now give me money please.



## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

I was discussing photography on another forum, not geared towards photography (the forum itself). It was a discussion on how everyone is getting into photography, making Facebook fan pages and start charging for their photos and call themselves a professional. 

This one response stood out to me and honestly really erked me. Please feel free to discuss your opinion on the below quoted statement. 

*"Bottom Line: If people are stupid enough to hire a photographer without  a/looking at their portfolio, it's their loss, and lucky for the  "photographer"..."*

What do you all feel about the influx in people claiming to be professional photographers? What do you feel about those who skip learning the technical terminology and countless hours you should spend molding your craft? Then go off and charge people for portraits. I'll admit some of these photos look to be about the caliber of a point and shoot. As we all know it's not entirely the camera but what the person does with it that matters. When I say point and shoot I'm just speaking in terms of the finish product quality.


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## Light Artisan (Nov 16, 2010)

I've read about 60 of these threads already... and that's just on this site alone.

Somehow I feel that another one isn't going to change things any more than the others have. The days of the professional photographer having a huge edge are almost over, some serious amateurs looking to make a buck on weekends can do a decent enough job to satisfy someone not wanting to pay $5000 for wedding photos.

Is the quality the same? Some yes, some no... mostly no I would guess - but there are 'professional photographers' who's work is not as good as some amateurs I know too.

Vent away.


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

In a recession the bottom end of the market is always going to "flourish" especially in a luxury area such as portrait photography. Also you have to remember most of these new businesses won't get off the ground very far - a few shots between friends and such isn't going to net them much of an earner and the low budget prices most charge are not aimed at a serious business with overheads (heck most won't be paying tax ).


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## white (Nov 16, 2010)

mmm, yummy troll bait.



Art of Emotion said:


> What do you all feel about the influx in  people claiming to be professional photographers? What do you feel about  those who skip learning the technical terminology and countless hours  you should spend molding your craft?


I feel nothing. Some kids built lemonade stands, I drew comics and daydreamed.

The more the merrier. The good stuff always stands out.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

I guess for me as a photographer I couldn't charge someone if I knew my photos really weren't somewhat on the professional playing level. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Something inside me couldn't condone the quoted line of thinking.


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## gsgary (Nov 16, 2010)

Overread said:


> In a recession the bottom end of the market is always going to "flourish" especially in a luxury area such as portrait photography. Also you have to remember most of these new businesses won't get off the ground very far - a few shots between friends and such isn't going to net them much of an earner and the low budget prices most charge are not aimed at a serious business with overheads (heck most won't be paying tax ).




You don't pay tax do you  i'm selfemployed and try to pay as little as possible


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## white (Nov 16, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> I guess for me as a photographer I couldn't charge someone if I knew my photos really weren't somewhat on the professional playing level. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Something inside me couldn't condone the quoted line of thinking.


Good for you. Some people would rather pay their bills.


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## o hey tyler (Nov 16, 2010)

white said:


> The more the merrier. The good stuff always stands out.



Not necessarily true. If the market is oversaturated with bad photogs, the potential customers may not even see the good ones.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

I  always say 'Robert Frank and Richard Billingham had no education and look how rich n famous they are now' i don't think Billingham really studied it at all.

Photography is one of those things everyone can be a part of, unlike science, where you do NEED to actually study intensely to get an occupation.

To me, that's the beauty of photography.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 16, 2010)

I posted in this quality thread.


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## enzodm (Nov 16, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> I  always say 'Robert Frank and Richard Billingham had no education and look how rich n famous they are now' i don't think Billingham really studied it at all.



I would say "had no *formal* education". It is slightly different from not knowing a bit.


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## white (Nov 16, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> Not necessarily true. If the market is oversaturated with bad photogs, the potential customers may not even see the good ones.


Customers with a discerning eye will hunt for the look they want. And the "good photographers" are responsible for marketing themselves anyway. You can't be brilliant and hang your work in a closet and then blame the bad photographers for your lack of success.


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## jewely (Nov 16, 2010)

white said:


> Art of Emotion said:
> 
> 
> > I guess for me as a photographer I couldn't charge someone if I knew my photos really weren't somewhat on the professional playing level. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Something inside me couldn't condone the quoted line of thinking.
> ...


 BAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! :lmao::lmao: 
OK so here we go i have a facebook fan page under a "professional" status ,, I am far from that thou , im not into lieing but i need the people i take photos in me to have cofidence that i can handle the photo shoot and not try to lead the sitting themselves NOW with that being said I only charge about 20 over what the prints and the cd cost thats not including my gas or time , soo i can also tell you this i have had that page up for about  5 months and have recieved maybe one or two sittings from it I think that everyone has to start somewhere and with people like me who cant afford school or webpages practing is the only way we will learn and  you  can only shoot your friends so many times before they think your crazy lol anyways its not a big deal peoples photos will speak for themselves


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2010)

If im looking for someone with a certain level of skill i wouldnt open my wallet until i new they had the skill to get the job done. buyer beware, if you are paying for someones expertise but dont even know if they have any, then who really is to blame?


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## Big Mike (Nov 16, 2010)

> Photography is one of those things everyone can be a part of, unlike science, where you do NEED to actually study intensely to get an occupation.


A very good point for this discussion.  

You need to be educated and certified (in most places) to practice medicine...or build bridges etc.  

And while you can be educated and certified in Photography, it's not a requirement for many of the ways that photographers can make money.  

If you can convince someone to give you money for your goods and/or services, that is enough and more power to you.  Of course, consumers are also free to choose who they buy their goods & services from, so it should allow the cream to rise to the top, so to speak.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 16, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> Photography is one of those things everyone can be a part of, unlike science, where you do NEED to actually study intensely to get an occupation.


 
No, but you can often tell the difference between a photog that has a background in art, and one that doesn't.


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## o hey tyler (Nov 16, 2010)

white said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > Not necessarily true. If the market is oversaturated with bad photogs, the potential customers may not even see the good ones.
> ...



Customers with a discerning eye? You mean the ones that like the Orton effect applied to every one of their wedding photos?


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I posted in this quality thread.


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## Derrel (Nov 16, 2010)

*"Bottom Line: If people are stupid enough to hire a photographer without a/looking at their portfolio, it's their loss, and lucky for the "photographer"..."*

Yes, that's about the way that works. There are loads of technically and artistically weak shooters these days, all charging money. Most can sort of run their cameras, and can sort of process the files. The posing, conceptual skills, and business acumen of this flood of newbies are all usually lacking,compared with the levels of professionals from prior generations. But...in this current climate, there seems to be a willing marketplace where low-cost, crappy photography is sold at retail.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > Photography is one of those things everyone can be a part of, unlike science, where you do NEED to actually study intensely to get an occupation.
> ...


Agreed.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Derrel said:


> *"Bottom Line: If people are stupid enough to hire a photographer without a/looking at their portfolio, it's their loss, and lucky for the "photographer"..."*
> 
> Yes, that's about the way that works. There are loads of technically and artistically weak shooters these days, all charging money. Most can sort of run their cameras, and can sort of process the files. The posing, conceptual skills, and business acumen of this flood of newbies are all usually lacking,compared with the levels of professionals from prior generations. But...in this current climate, there seems to be a willing marketplace where low-cost, crappy photography is sold at retail.


You make a good point. I guess it's just a deep embedded peeve that I'll have to get over. Building the bridge as we speak  

Thank you though for the response. It does make sense, and I guess it's just how things are going to be for photography.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2010)

Derrel said:


> *"Bottom Line: If people are stupid enough to hire a photographer without a/looking at their portfolio, it's their loss, and lucky for the "photographer"..."*
> 
> Yes, that's about the way that works. There are loads of technically and artistically weak shooters these days, all charging money. Most can sort of run their cameras, and can sort of process the files. The posing, conceptual skills, and business acumen of this flood of newbies are all usually lacking,compared with the levels of professionals from prior generations. But...in this current climate, there seems to be a willing marketplace where low-cost, crappy photography is sold at retail.


 

we live in the time of "must have everythig now" why wait and learn your craft when you can just pop up a quick site and throw a dollar sign out there and call yourself a pro.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 16, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> Thank you though for the response. It does make sense, and I guess it's just how things are going to be for photography.


 
It's not just in photography. I work in a building with 3 other jewelers like me (it's a shop, not a retail store). I am the only one that was schooled, I am the only one that choose this as a career. I am the only one who is so busy I just had to hire a secretary. The other three are complaining how slow they are...

It's the same as photography. The quality of my work shines through and spreads by word of mouth. I am also the most expensive.  *People who want cheap work, will go to the cheap worker. People who want a great job done, will pay for it.*


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > ChevyBaby said:
> ...



Very true! But then, again as said, thats a matter of choice coming from the client, depends what you can afford i guess as a customer. No matter how much you try and 'big yourself up' at some point you gotta produce the goods and if they're not as good as your price suggests, again, that's the customers choice.


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

12sndsgood said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > *"Bottom Line: If people are stupid enough to hire a photographer without a/looking at their portfolio, it's their loss, and lucky for the "photographer"..."*
> ...



Far as I can tell this time has existed for quite a few generations 
There have always been botchit builders - homegrown plumbers - DIY disasters and all the rest. The only difference today is that the better quality tools are more cheaply affordable than in the past.

I've also often mused - considering the massive amount of film gear that flooded the second hand market when digital took over - as to if this "problem" was always present, but that its only since the WWW came around that people have had a chance to "see" it on the larger scale and to also complain about it :mrgreen:

However I do think that, with the big changes in mechanisation and in outsourcing expensive manual labour jobs to other countries many western nations have the problem of too many workers aiming for a middleclass or higher job and not quite enough jobs to fit that need. Ergo more jobmarket pressure ergo more redundancies and thus also more people trying easily home grown work like photography.
The opening up of the working world to women and the change in social structure to one where both partners are expected/required to earn also putting more pressure on the job market.


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> white said:
> 
> 
> > mmm, yummy troll bait.
> ...



Wait wait what forum? I wanna know what's happening!!


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## burgo (Nov 16, 2010)

I have nothing against seasoned amateur photographers making some coin off their images and skills. These people have spent years studying and perfecting their work, but just outside the formal system.

It is just a shame that some shyster with a canon 1000D and a couple of crappy lenses thinks they can shoot weddings. These people can generally fool their customers only to the point of the final product, which is usually crap. Print their images at walmart,


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## Pubb (Nov 16, 2010)

To me photography is art, like drawing, painting and the like if I sat on the side of the road with pencil and easel and drew stick figure portraits of people and someone bought them would we be having this same conversation? Art is what it is and in the end it is the viewer of said art that gives it meaning and price. IF you want a Renior you pay the price, you want dogs playing poker come see me.


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## Rekd (Nov 16, 2010)

In this day and age where technology is cheap exists the ability for anyone to buy a DSLR and "Go Pro" by taking fabulous shots right out of the camera. 

With that in mind, are you finding yourself put out, offended, threatened, angry or even sad about the massive influx of competition to the world of Professional Photography?

If so, you need to back up and take stock of your own ability to wield a camera. 

Seriously.

If you're that damned worried about what other people are doing it can only mean you lack the skill (and/or confidence) to over-come the raging amateurs like me who are muscling in on your turf.

Mkthx. :twak:




> Tags





> beginner, charging, frustrations


RAWR!!! :lmao:


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## NikonNewbie (Nov 16, 2010)

I always assumed that a professional photographer went to college and majored in art(s)...I was stunned to find out that is not always the case...silly me. AGAIN>
lol


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## Rekd (Nov 16, 2010)

^^^ I always assumed a "professional" was someone who makes a living doing something. Like photography. 

I know lots of professionals who didn't go to college. Professional drivers, photogs, writers, machinists, etc etc etc.

Yep. Silly you.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

Professional just implys you do it as a *paid* profession dunnit?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 16, 2010)

Depends on who you ask.

Been down that road before too. LOL


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## twoboysnmygirl (Nov 16, 2010)

Well, I see both sides but there has to be a middle ground.  

Do people with small incomes or low income families not deserve any sort of photos?  There are people out there that will NEVER be able to afford a $2000 or $5000 photo shoot...or even a $400 shoot, for that matter.  

I don't charge as much, I'm just starting out, it's true.  I don't feel my work is WORTH as much as someone with years more experience than me, so I don't charge as much.  I do not, however, think I'm taking anything from said photographer b/c I think it shows in the work and I think that people who are going to pay thousands of dollars will pay it for more experience and quality.  Does this mean I'll never get there?  No, but I also think at least this provides an option for those people who can't afford top of the line.  Just my opinion, obviously. 

I also think that ALL photographers started somewhere.  No, I don't think you should just purchase a camera and call yourself a photographer, but when is it ok?  1 year of study?  2?  10?  How can such a thing be judged?


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Overread said:
> 
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> > erose86 said:
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Married life forum? You mean where you gather and discuss the various methods of knitting socks, backing buns and just what the best way to hoover under the guys legs are when its footy watching time? 

:mrgreen:


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## NikonNewbie (Nov 16, 2010)

Rekd said:


> ^^^ I always assumed a "professional" was someone who makes a living doing something. Like photography.
> 
> I know lots of professionals who didn't go to college. Professional drivers, photogs, writers, machinists, etc etc etc.
> 
> Yep. Silly you.


 

Yep! lol
I think because I hired Lindell studios to take care of my wedding and they kept throwing the word "professional" meaning...your gonna pay what we ask because we all have college degrees....and turns out, the photographer was great, but I gotta say their presentation kinda sucked!
My pictures had dust all over the proofs...and they said, "oh we can take that off the ones you order" ...and the ones I ordered still had the damn dust there...and I had to POINT it out to them! and not to mention their video service was HORRIBLE.
thats why I thought you weren't a pro unless you went to college...they beat it into my head...lol


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## Robin Usagani (Nov 16, 2010)

Dude..   I just started like 7-8 months ago.  Yup, I have been charging people left and right and some want more pictures.  I have 2 weddings in March.


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## NikonNewbie (Nov 16, 2010)

My husband showed me this huge rant on Craig's List about what you get when you don't hire a professional...I was thinking to myself "jaded" the whole time...he made sure to point out how much time and equipment and insurance and yada yada...but still...if you dont' have that money to pay someone like him...ya just don't have it! and if someone has a talent but not the knotches in the bedpest (or is it belt?) why not save yourself some money, especially in this hard ass economy.


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## NikonNewbie (Nov 16, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> Dude.. I just started like 7-8 months ago. Yup, I have been charging people left and right and some want more pictures. I have 2 weddings in March.


 
:thumbup:


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

NikonNewbie said:


> Rekd said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^ I always assumed a "professional" was someone who makes a living doing something. Like photography.
> ...



A qualification just looks good on a CV but photographers who wanna hire you care more about a portfolio and a creative mind normally.

You can learn exactly the same stuff you learn during schooling, anywhere if you care enough.

That's why my first responce to this thread was what it was. I dont think it matters how you've learnt your trade as long as you can make everyone smile. Whats the harm in that? :sillysmi:


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## phiya (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm trying to build my portfolio and learn so that I too can at some point be an amateur photog that makes some extra cash on the weekends.  But I'm not going to throw a site up and call myself pro, and I'm not going to seek business until I know that I'm able to produce results that I'm happy with, consistently.  And I'm a bigger critic than people viewing my pictures often are.  

I have a couple of friends who recently got married.  Lets just say the images on he photography companies website were about 30,000 times better than the ones that they got for their wedding.  It seems like the couple is happy with them, but I know they're crap.  I won't tell them, but they got ripped off by a company charging a minimum of 2K for wedding photos that are barely worth the paper they're printed on.  It's the integrity of the profession that takes a hit in the long run.  I double as a CPA during the day; and let me tell you, the profession and it's standards address routinely the outward appearance to the public as a result of CPA actions.  It's a bit different because being a CPA actually requires education and certification; but the concept is the same.  The more people pay good money for bad pictures, the more they are going to be wary of paying any money for pictures at all.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Rekd said:


> In this day and age where technology is cheap exists the ability for anyone to buy a DSLR and "Go Pro" by taking fabulous shots right out of the camera.
> 
> With that in mind, are you finding yourself put out, offended, threatened, angry or even sad about the massive influx of competition to the world of Professional Photography?
> 
> ...



I find it amusing that you'd read so much into my post  Thank you for 'ass'uming my take on these types of things. 

I am not 'worried' I don't think I ever mentioned that in my post. My thing was with the actual 'quote' that someone had said that erked me. Now if you have anything to offer in terms of what you feel about what that person said I'm more then open to hearing your opinion. Otherwise you look rather bitter and make yourself look silly as far as 'ass'uming I lack skill or confidence. I'm very proud of where I am in terms of my photography. I am merely starting a topic it's not a crime is it? If it is please let me know and I'll submit to your indepth psychology degree you seem to hold there. 

Cheers


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Overread said:


> erose86 said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
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Sex sex and more sex of course.. that's all we talk about over there 

You guys would rip a hole in some of those girls knee highs. I'd welcome them coming over Emily!!  It'd give some a good dose of reality.


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## Tbini87 (Nov 16, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> Dude.. I just started like 7-8 months ago. Yup, I have been charging people left and right and some want more pictures. I have 2 weddings in March.


 
Love to hear it Schwetty. Also like to see you around here trying to learn and get better. I am in the same boat starting a business with my wife right now. Been doing a lot of free work, but a lot of people are asking for our prices to hire us as well. We still have a long way to go and a lot to learn, but we are getting better slowly and surely. I don't think 6 years in college are necessary to be a good photographer. People and business skills are important as well, and I don't think only "photography" skills should be looked at when discussing "professional photogs".


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## Rekd (Nov 16, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> Rekd said:
> 
> 
> > In this day and age where technology is cheap exists the ability for anyone to buy a DSLR and "Go Pro" by taking fabulous shots right out of the camera.
> ...



Don't flatter yourself too much. This was directed at ALL the whiner-baby's complaining for the last several years about all the n00bie photogs coming around snatching up all the paying work. It's not "just" about you. 

Little secret: I used to feel slightly bad for those insecure photogs when I first went pro. Now I just LOL. 

And be serious now, if you weren't finding yourself put out, offended, threatened, angry or even sad (and yes, "erked") about the massive influx of competition to the world of Professional Photography, why'd you post this topic to seek the condolences and compassion from others? 



> This one response stood out to me and honestly really *erked *me


:hugs:


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Rekd said:


> And be serious now, if you weren't finding yourself put out, offended, threatened, angry or even sad about the massive influx of competition to the world of Professional Photography, why'd you post this topic to seek the condolences and compassion from others?


I don't see these other people as competition most of whom don't live near me. So it's certainly not about the competition.  Consider it one of those little kid rants .  I guess the frustration comes out of the time I've put into photography.. Which in comparison to many of you is probably nothing. But I guess it saddens me how a lot of things in life take less 'brains'. However it's nice to come here and read up on those taking the time to hone their skills. It's admirable and has taught me a lot in the past few months. 

I'll equate my thread to what  I see in the forum I regularly post in. Is this one of those topics that is brought up on an hourly basis that,  seasoned posters get annoyed with? If so my apologies. I guess the search tool does wonders. Please note I usually don't take anything personally especially when it comes to online forums. My post was out of line and emotion got the best of me. Where's my dunce hat!?! Emily hand it over!


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

ooh my, everytime i open a thread in here it's turned into a heated arguement!

I think the competition is the joy of competitive rates for most people and encouragement to beat the rest, be the best! lol


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Wait... why do *I* have it?  What are you trying to say?


:hail:
If only TN had these emotes


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## Robin Usagani (Nov 16, 2010)

If Erose is in my area.. i would definitely pay her stop by and take pics


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

ChevyBaby said:


> ooh my, everytime i open a thread in here it's turned into a heated arguement!
> 
> I think the competition is the joy of competitive rates for most people and encouragement to beat the rest, be the best! lol


No one's arguing really it's nice to get opinions from everyone. I think I took it too far with my comment if anything. Everyone else was good in my eyes.


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## ChevyBaby (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> ChevyBaby said:
> 
> 
> > ooh my, everytime i open a thread in here it's turned into a heated arguement!
> ...



just that little tiff with rekd was a bit shaky there lol. im glad u think im bubbly, everyone else thinks im miserable lol

Today 05:24 PM   	Schwettylens 	 		 		If Erose is in my area.. i would definitely pay her stop by and take pics 
erose reminds me of a character in my favourite soap - just judgin by her bootiful pic.


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## misstwinklytoes (Nov 16, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> It's not just in photography. I work in a building with 3 other jewelers like me (it's a shop, not a retail store). I am the only one that was schooled, I am the only one that choose this as a career. I am the only one who is so busy I just had to hire a secretary. The other three are complaining how slow they are...



Where do you sell your stuff??  I likes the jewels....


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## Derrel (Nov 16, 2010)

Here is a story done by The New York Times about "moms-with-a-camera"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/your-money/27iht-mplay28.4.5478740.html

This is an abridged version of the story. A longer version of the story is here:

Baby on Board, and a Photography Business, Too - New York Times

The NYT article was sort of the announcement of the MWAC phenomenon in the mainstream press. Since 2007, Facebook Photographers (as I refer to them) have become the hot,new thing...

I am going to DIS-AGREE with overread about the prevalence and historical existence of these low-end shooters; the arrival of the $1,000 d-slr with the Canon Rebel,and then the Nikon D70, and the explosion in personal computer power that we saw in the mid-2000's have really caused an EXPLOSIVE growth in the photography business, as shown by the US Chamber of Commerce figures. Back in the early 1980's, part-time wedding photography had much,much higher actual costs than photography does today; the film, processing,and proofing costs for a modest medium-format wedding in the early 1990's could easily run to $300. And that is $300 almost 20 years ago, when $300 was much,much more money than it is these days. The part-timer back in the 1980's and 1990's had tremendous costs in terms of consumables--film, proofing, enlargements...the cost to shoot and proof four or five weddings could in the 1980's and 1990's easily equal the cost of a single medium forma body and one normal lens; today, for $1,000 in inflated funds, a shooter can purchase a Nikon or Canon camera that can deliver the equivalent of $75,000 to $80,000 worth of "free film and INSTANT developing and FREE proofing"..

No, the low end has never,ever,ever had so few barriers to entry as it does today.


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## Rekd (Nov 16, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> I guess the frustration comes out of the time I've put into photography.. Which in comparison to many of you is probably nothing. But I guess it saddens me how a lot of things in life take less 'brains'.




Now we're getting somewhere! First of all, I'm into DSLRs for a little over a year.  I shot (professionally) using a glorified point and shoot (Sony DSC H5) for about 4 or 5 years. 

Now that I have a good body and a good lens and am learning about ISO, shutter speed, aperture, framing, lighting and a million other things, I consider myself a professional. Not only because I get paid to do it (the New York Times paid for all my equipment many times over), but because I can have a solid conversation with anyone else about the topic and at least know what the discussion is about. 

Now, contrast that with my main "profession". I'm a machinist/programmer by trade. Have been for over a quarter century. I'm in the top of my field and have no doubt I am a professional. I've put my entire life into it and it takes good care of me.

But when I see young kids getting into the trade and making their first part and they call themselves a "professional" I don't get erked at all. I get happy about it mostly because I used to teach it and I appreciate when people take a passion in what they do.

The bottom line is that there's plenty of work to go around if that's your thing. And there's plenty of different levels of expertise people will pay for which means there is room for all stages of "professionals". If some pimply-faced kid can make some cash taking photos and wants to call himself a professional, more power to them!


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Here is a story done by The New York Times about "moms-with-a-camera"
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/your-money/27iht-mplay28.4.5478740.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Rekd said:


> Art of Emotion said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the frustration comes out of the time I've put into photography.. Which in comparison to many of you is probably nothing. But I guess it saddens me how a lot of things in life take less 'brains'.
> ...


I appreciate your stance on this and explanation. I guess there was some good that came out of posting this after all. My way of thinking is a bit wrong, I'll never be above admitting that when I am. 
Thanks


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## misstwinklytoes (Nov 16, 2010)

Just unsubscribing.


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 16, 2010)

That NYT article was good. It reminds me of this girl from my area. She got a T2i about 6 months ago and is charging I believe $100 creative fee and giving the photo's on a disc with the option to buy prints. She has a good eye, but in general she doesn't have a clue what she is doing. She bought one speed light with a stand and an umbrella and is has a rented space now that will very soon be her "studio". She put a couple photo's that I thought were decent (just decent) on Facebook and I told her why I like one over the other. It wasn't a critique or anything, but she flipped out saying she didn't care for critiquing because I was just trying to intimidate her because I have more experience. I tried to tell her that I was trying to help her out because I have more experience, but she wasn't hearing it. 

I have absolutely no worries or insecurities about MWAC, but I think some of them are ridiculous and sometimes I can do noting but sit back and laugh at how they think their new dslr makes them so much of an expert that they have nothing to learn. It is even more amusing when they have that attitude and their photo's are trash.

Edit: I also personally do not consider myself a "professional" because to me it has more of a meaning pertaining to skill. I do make most of my income from photography, though.


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## Robin Usagani (Nov 16, 2010)

I dont look down at MWAC.  They are basically me, but different gender.  But really.. the water is choppy..  You better know how to swim or you are going to sink.  Doing selective coloring to impress people can only take you so far.


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm with you. I don't look down at anyone unless they have a bad attitude as the girl I was talking about did. I have a couple selective color photo's in my body of work. Like 3 or 4, but I agree. I have seen a lot of people do it and try to use it as a gimmick of sort when they first start out. I think it's because they genuinely don't realize how much it is played out.


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

Blake.Oney said:


> That NYT article was good. It reminds me of this girl from my area. She got a T2i about 6 months ago and is charging I believe $100 creative fee and giving the photo's on a disc with the option to buy prints. She has a good eye, but in general she doesn't have a clue what she is doing. She bought one speed light with a stand and an umbrella and is has a rented space now that will very soon be her "studio". She put a couple photo's that I thought were decent (just decent) on Facebook and I told her why I like one over the other. It wasn't a critique or anything, but she flipped out saying she didn't care for critiquing because I was just trying to intimidate her because I have more experience. I tried to tell her that I was trying to help her out because I have more experience, but she wasn't hearing it.
> 
> I have absolutely no worries or insecurities about MWAC, but I think some of them are ridiculous and sometimes I can do noting but sit back and laugh at how they think their new dslr makes them so much of an expert that they have nothing to learn. It is even more amusing when they have that attitude and their photo's are trash.
> 
> Edit: I also personally do not consider myself a "professional" because to me it has more of a meaning pertaining to skill. I do make most of my income from photography, though.


That's the hardest part about Facebook is you don't know who's willing to hear 'gentle' constructive criticism. At times you just have to submit to the fact that if she's not willing to hear any sort of criticism she won't really grow. I thrive on constructive criticism whether it's asked for or not. I find that the "That's a nice photo" gets me no where. BUt a "This photo is ok but you could really practice a bit more with x, y , z." sometimes it helps me to think of different approaches. Hopefully she'll come around :/


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## Art of Emotion (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Blake.Oney said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with you. I don't look down at anyone unless they have a bad attitude as the girl I was talking about did. I have a couple selective color photo's in my body of work. Like 3 or 4, but I agree. I have seen a lot of people do it and try to use it as a gimmick of sort when they first start out. I think it's because they genuinely don't realize how much it is played out.
> ...


And I look down on you because of .. well just because


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Blake.Oney said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with you. I don't look down at anyone unless they have a bad attitude as the girl I was talking about did. I have a couple selective color photo's in my body of work. Like 3 or 4, but I agree. I have seen a lot of people do it and try to use it as a gimmick of sort when they first start out. I think it's because they genuinely don't realize how much it is played out.
> ...



Pfft well





sooo 
:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## David-Wayne (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow this post got long quick! I agree with Reckd (sp? its been 3 pgs since i saw his name)  As a long time veteran in the industry (yes 3yrs makes me a vet and soon to be collecting Social security) I have to say that while there is a huge influx of moms and old dudes with DSLRs trying to shoot weddings, their work is sub par and will stay that way BC they dont have the drive to survive even one real (wedding) season. When the going gets tough, shooting for 25% of  what a real pro would do will make the work start sucking quick and they drop off.  In my short 3 yrs i've seen many come and go. Its the handyman VS the pro, and while I'm still not the best, I'm not too worried


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## pbelarge (Nov 16, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> No, but you can often tell the difference between a photog that has a background in art, and one that doesn't.


 

Artists, yeah...those guys with the hats and beards.....


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## pbelarge (Nov 16, 2010)

It never ceases to amaze me how upset people get at other people for doing what they want to do, whether they do it well or not. 

I thought we live America...the land of opportunity.


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > No, but you can often tell the difference between a photog that has a background in art, and one that doesn't.
> ...



OI! Nature photographers are not artists!
Well ok maybe we are (or try to beat least), but we also have hats and beards and are way different from the snooty artists!



pbelarge said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how upset people get at other people for doing what they want to do, whether they do it well or not.
> 
> I thought we live America...the land of opportunity.



I don't


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## pbelarge (Nov 16, 2010)

Overread said:


> pbelarge said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...


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## pbelarge (Nov 16, 2010)

Hello Emily
I have been busy this fall, and I use this site with guerrilla tactics...swoop in, post and run. 

I see you have also been busy.


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## Overread (Nov 16, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > pbelarge said:
> ...



Pfft!! 

Is it bad though that I debated putting a pocket watch into that shot - decided against it in the end (was pretty sure it would end put at best licked and at worst chewed and buried!)


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## Chamelion 6 (Nov 16, 2010)

Maybe it's beause I'm new here, but I really don't get all these "who has the right to be a photographer" threads. Seriously, I'm at a loss.

Photography is an "end result" kind of activity. It doesn't make a difference if you spent 10 minutes, 10 months or 10 years hoening your craft, all that matters is that end result. Somebody with 10 minutes worth of craft under their belt and a good eye is just as capable of making a great photograph as some one with years of effort and formal training.

The difference is consistancy. It's been that way for as long as I can remember... All the way back to the film days. Doing it once is one thing, doing it day in and day out is another. Buying a camera and shooting a few portraits is one thing, making a living at it is another. How much time you put into it is completely irrelevant. If you can consistantly make your clients happy then you have a market. If not you'll be back at your old day job before too long.... And that's true whether you have a string of alphabets after your name, a certificate, a letter from your 9th grade teacher and a $9000.oo camera or not.

I can honestly say I never gave this a whole lot of thought till I got here. For me this is a hobby, albeit a serious one. I'm not looking to go pro but I'll sell my work to anyone that wants to buy it. For me it's about the art and the expression. I don't care what you label me, but I do care what people think of my work. 

I also write. I learned that every mother and their dog wants to be a writer... of those less that 1% want to actually write. It's not about what you're called, it's about what you do.


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## burgo (Nov 17, 2010)

There is a thread going around where quite a number of people have expressed how under-whelmed they are by the photography of Ansel Adams. My point is don't get hung up on what others think of your work. Some one can look at a Van Gogh painting and think it is crap while another person becomes immersed in the wonder of it.  That is the nature of art. So be true to yourself and if some people like it then well and good, if not, then who cares.


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## Chamelion 6 (Nov 17, 2010)

burgo said:


> There is a thread going around where quite a number of people have expressed how under-whelmed they are by the photography of Ansel Adams. My point is don't get hung up on what others think of your work. Some one can look at a Van Gogh painting and think it is crap while another person becomes immersed in the wonder of it. That is the nature of art. So be true to yourself and if some people like it then well and good, if not, then who cares.


 
I know the thread.  I posted a couple of thoughts in it.

And I agree with you in principal, but I think every artist likes to think their work is reaching someone.  I don't even mind the "it's crap" opinions if I can figure out the what and why of it.  But when I'm shooting, I shoot to please me first.  It's got to touch something in me first...


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## Derrel (Nov 17, 2010)

Blake.Oney said:


> That NYT article was good. It reminds me of this girl from my area. She got a T2i about 6 months ago and is charging I believe $100 creative fee and giving the photo's on a disc with the option to buy prints. She has a good eye, but in general she doesn't have a clue what she is doing. She bought one speed light with a stand and an umbrella and is has a rented space now that will very soon be her "studio". She put a couple photo's that I thought were decent (just decent) on Facebook and I told her why I like one over the other. It wasn't a critique or anything, but she flipped out saying she didn't care for critiquing because I was just trying to intimidate her because I have more experience. I tried to tell her that I was trying to help her out because I have more experience, but she wasn't hearing it.
> 
> I have absolutely no worries or insecurities about MWAC, but I think some of them are ridiculous and sometimes I can do noting but sit back and laugh at how they think their new dslr makes them so much of an expert that they have nothing to learn. It is even more amusing when they have that attitude and their photo's are trash.
> 
> Edit: I also personally do not consider myself a "professional" because to me it has more of a meaning pertaining to skill. I do make most of my income from photography, though.



Amusing story Blake! Well-told,and insightful. I think you are going to make it as a full-time pro shooter. You seem to have a good way about you.


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## Boomn4x4 (Nov 17, 2010)

Art of Emotion said:


> I guess for me as a photographer I couldn't charge someone if I knew my photos really weren't somewhat on the professional playing level. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Something inside me couldn't condone the quoted line of thinking.


 
Define "professional playing level"

In my opinion, professional playing level is defined by the customer, not the photographer.  A magazine editor is going to have a completly different expectations from a professional than a bride.  From a brides persepective, "a professional" is someone who follows them around with a bulky camera all day long and gives them a photo album 2 weeks later.  They want to see smiles, their gown blowing in the breeze, people jumping up and down and a shot or two with selective coloring.  They will NEVER notice if a shot is under exposed, a horizon isn't level, there is a little bit of noise in the sky, or if the subjects don't follow the rule of thirds.

Understanding all of this is where I feel a lot of photographers fall short.  A photographer that charges $10,000 for a wedding shoot may pick up an album from a guy that charged $500 and say, "This is aweful".  But the bride will look at both of them and not notice a difference.  The only difference is that one person got paid $500 the other got paid nothing.


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## Blake.Oney (Nov 17, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> Art of Emotion said:
> 
> 
> > I guess for me as a photographer I couldn't charge someone if I knew my photos really weren't somewhat on the professional playing level. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Something inside me couldn't condone the quoted line of thinking.
> ...




I agree. I think a lot of professional photogs are going to be forced to lower their prices. It concerns me for some of the people I've met through photography, but it doesn't hit so close to home. If a lot of you guys heard me price a shoot you'd probably laugh. The area that I live in is low income. $500-$1000 is a realistic number for weddings here. Portraits are more like $50-$100. People here will pay more for different than they will for normal at Olan Mills, but if it gets too high they just can't afford it. I am able to offer rates they can afford because the cost of living is much much lower here than almost anywhere else. I used to work at ATT and for some reason everyone who called in would tell me how much cigarettes cost where they live. So the only way I know to compare is a pack costs $3 here. Plus there isn't that many people trying to do professional work around here. If someone pops up offering $20 portraits I'll be in trouble I guess.


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