# Looking to buy a Film Camera..but..



## Sbuxo (Aug 29, 2008)

Hello all, I'm a Freshman in college and and I've been longing to buy a 35mm Film Camera for awhile now. I do own a digital camera, the Canon Powershot SD750 and I love it. But like I said, I'm been looking into Film more, now especially since I'll be taking two photography classes in my next semester. I did take Photography I in High School but it was a half credit class, meaning half the time to learn and everything was squeezed in so I didn't really grasp how to adjust the aperture and use the light meter and such. But, I have been learning from online articles and photography books, all I need now is the camera. One thing. I'm very picky in choosing which one, and many things have started to confuse me. Amazon has great prices on great cameras, but I'm not sure which one to pick. I've been seeing SLRs and Completely Manual cameras, and really can't decide because of the different reviews I see. SLRs seem to have blur problems, and don't make crisp prints? Of course, I can't totally rely on reviews because those can differ from person to person, right?

Then, I'd like to know if any/all SLRs have the option of going completely manual? As in the ability of setting aperture & focus, and have a light meter? I hope I don't sound stupid asking this..-nervous laughter-.

The second (probably obvious/stupid) thing I'd like to know is can these cameras shoot in both B&W and Color? Or just B&W? When I took Photography I we used Leicas, but it was only B&W photography. Was this because of the film or the camera? I suppose the film, am I right?

Hmm..I'd also like to know what all of you think about the Canon Rebel Series in general. I'm attracted to the Canon EOS Rebel K2 35mm SLR w/ EF 28 to 90mm II USM but..again..the "blurry, bad color quality" reviews have set me back a little.

I'm a Canon fan, but I'm also open-minded. Especially towards Nikon, which I know is Canon's arch rival and leap-frog partner. But I really want to start practicing with a camera before class, and want it to meet most (all would be nice though..) of my expectations.

I would appreciate it if experienced/serious photographers helped me out on this one. Thanks so much. 
-Sabrina:heart:


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## Big Mike (Aug 29, 2008)

Welcome to the forum Sabrina.

Firstly, don't worry about 'SLR' type cameras.  Those are what most professional photographers have been using for several decades....no worries about blurry photos because of an SLR camera.

As for color vs B&W, that's the film, not the camera.  You can buy color or B&W film and there are many brands & types to choose from.

Pretty much any SLR camera that you will find, will have the ability to shoot in manual mode, both manual exposure and manual focus.

I think the Canon Rebel series would be a good choice to start with.  It would be able to do everything you need for your class...plus, the lenses will be compatible with a Canon Digital SLR camera, if you ever buy one.


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## Early (Aug 29, 2008)

What's your budget?

PS  I don't understand the blur problems.  Camera shake?  Miss focus?  Subject movement?


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## Sbuxo (Aug 29, 2008)

@Big Mike: Thanks so much! 
So, the Canon Rebel isn't an SLR camera?
I would want to buy a camera ideal for my classes, but something I could also use for the future.
How is the Canon that I am contemplating on buying? 

@Early: I've seen a couple reviews about "blurry prints", probably not on-point focus.

Thanks you guys.
[:

I'm beginning to love this forum. [:


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## Sbuxo (Aug 29, 2008)

Oh and my budget..hmm..no more than US$350.00
I saw that on Amazon there are used Rebels and even new ones for about 250-something,  so that's another reason why I was interested.
But of course I'll be testing out the camera and how it feels at a store, beforehand. 

Thanks again for going out of your way and answering & inquiring!
-Sabrina


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## Big Mike (Aug 29, 2008)

> @Big Mike: Thanks so much!
> So, the Canon Rebel isn't an SLR camera?


Yes, the Rebels are SLR cameras.  All Canon 'EOS' cameras are auto focus SLR cameras.  

You could probably find a better deal than $250 for a rebel...unless it comes with a couple of lenses and a flash, for example.  I'd suggest $100 for a rebel.  You could even look for a better SLR camera like an EOS ELAN.  

I'd also suggest an EF 50mm F1.8 lens.  Something like a 28-90mm would be nice, but it's probably better to learn with something like a 50mm lens, not to mention that the quality will be better.


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## randerson07 (Aug 29, 2008)

I would think you could get an Elan II from ebay or craigs list with a lens for $100 or below.

This one for example is $70
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=533996&highlight=elan


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## Sbuxo (Aug 29, 2008)

So..what's difference between the EOS ELAN and the Rebel Series?

& as for the 55mm lens, I've heard that that length is better and can provide better quality pictures but what if I get both?

And what exactly does EOS mean?

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1220043124/ref=sr_nr_n_0?ie=UTF8&rs=499106&keywords=Canon&bbn=172441&rnid=499106&rh=n%3A502394%2Ck%3ACanon%2Cn%3A499106%2Cn%3A172441"]http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1220043124/ref=sr_nr_n_0?ie=UTF8&rs=499106&keywords=Canon&bbn=172441&rnid=499106&rh=n%3A502394%2Ck%3ACanon%2Cn%3A499106%2Cn%3A172441[/ame]

Which one of these are the best?


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## randerson07 (Aug 29, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> So..what's difference between the EOS ELAN and the Rebel Series?
> 
> & as for the 55mm lens, I've heard that that length is better and can provide better quality pictures but what if I get both?
> 
> ...



I dont know the exact differences but I can tell you this, think of the elan vs rebel almost the same as a xxxD vs xxD series. The rebel is the lower range, the elan in the middle and the 1 series at the top.

The 50mm does not automatically make your pictures better, but it is a faster lens than your standard zoom, and probably is a bit higher up quality wise than any of those kit zooms.  Dont get me wrong it takes wonderful photos, but it wont make a bad photo better.  50mm in the film world is a very good all around focal length, I personally find I shoot at that length quite often.

Well from that list of course the EOS 1v is the best, as its Canons Top of the line.

For a definition of EOS check here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS


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## Big Mike (Aug 29, 2008)

The ELAN series is a step up from the Rebels.  A bigger body with a more rugged build quality.  Best of all, the ELAN has a thumb wheel on the back for adjusting the settings.
The Rebel bodies have more plastic, so they are smaller and lighter but they are still good.  You might even prefer smaller and lighter.  



> as for the 55mm lens, I've heard that that length is better and can provide better quality pictures but what if I get both?


The *50mm* lens will have a few advantages over something like a 28-80mm lens.  Firstly is a larger maximum aperture. (F1.8 is bigger than F3.5-5.6).  Secondly, the 50mm lens is very simple, so the optics are very good...the image quality will be very good.  The 28-80mm lens is a 'kit' lens, made to be a cheap lens to be sold with the lower level cameras.  It would still be a good idea to have both but you will probably upgrade the zoom when you realize that there are better options.


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## ABPASnapshot (Aug 29, 2008)

....I have the Canon EOS Rebel T2 and it's great - color, B&W, auto and manual settings, love it....:thumbup:


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## djacobox372 (Aug 29, 2008)

Nikon FM is a "full manual" camera with a light meter.  I can sell you this one for $65:


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## danjchau (Aug 29, 2008)

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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

~overwhelmed~
Yeah, I've seen that Nikon before, djacobox372.
It looks very similar to the one I used in Photo, but they were Leicas.

And..
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Canon-EOS-3-35mm-Camera-Body/dp/B00006I542/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1220076542&sr=1-14[/ame]
The link above is the 'look' I like for cameras, I like all black, but the Rebels are mostly silverish, aren't they?

And for "autofocus" is there a way to disable it so I can manually focus, or can I just do that in Manual mode?


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## danjchau (Aug 30, 2008)

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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Ohh okay.
What's the closest thing to a Rebel for Nikon?

Also, I've heard alot about Pentaxes, are those up to par with Nikon & Canon?


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## danjchau (Aug 30, 2008)

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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

That's true..
So a Rebel I guess is best.
But..is the one that I stated in the first post okay? 
I think I like that one best, even better if they had it in all black..

Are fish-eye lenses relatively expensive?
I really love the effect it gives photos.

And, what are the best films to use with Rebels?


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## keith204 (Aug 30, 2008)

I have the ELAN II and it's a great camera.  KEH has one for $25 and one for $50.  I just bought a "BGN" rated EOS-3 and the quality is exceptional...I will buy their "BGN" rated equipment again with little hesitation.  

Say you went BGN and got the $25 ELAN II
Then you drop a whopping $90 on a brand new 50mm f/1.8

Total?  $115

Excellent beginner's setup, and something you'll probably keep around for fun several years down the road.  I'd totally do this if I were in your shoes.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Well I'm falling asleep now..
I'll be back on tomorrow.
Much love
-Sabrina
xoxoxo


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## malkav41 (Aug 30, 2008)

If you were to, by chance, go with an A2E (EOS 5) you should know that only the EOS 5, which is the name for the camera outside of North America, has an exposure meter that shows how much over/under the exposure is in the viewfinder when the camera is in manual mode. The A2/A2E only show a +/- sign to show over/under exposure in manual mode. This could be a problem in the classes your taking. 

Now, by no means am I knocking the A2 camera, I own 2 of them, but I  shoot with them in AV(Aperture Priority) due to the +/- metering in manual. 

I have an Elan II, and it's an awesome camera with everything you'd need for what your going to be doing. 

I've had a couple of Rebels, and have mixed impressions on them. The Rebel Xs I had, had the same type of metering as the A2 in manual. While the G II I still have, has metering similar to the Elan II and Elan 7E that I have. They both were/are great starter cameras, but the metering differences were a sore spot with me.

The Nikon N90s is a really great camera also.

The best thing to do is to make a list of all the features that you are looking for in a camera, and go from there. We (forum members) will help you as much as we can to answer your questions.


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## malkav41 (Aug 30, 2008)

I figure the closest camera that Nikon makes to a Rebel is the N65, and N75. They're both pretty much entry level cameras, like the Rebel. I know, I have both of them. 

I collect, and use a lot of cameras if you haven't figured it out yet from my two posts.


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## ksmattfish (Aug 30, 2008)

malkav41 said:


> The A2/A2E only show a +/- sign to show over/under exposure in manual mode. This could be a problem in the classes your taking.



I should hope that one of the first things new photo students would learn is the standard scales of aperture and shutter in 1 stop increments.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Yeah, the +/- meter was the one we used on the Leicas in class.
And it has a little circle in the middle that would be green if it was correct?

And, the classes I'll be taking together in Spring will be Color Photography and B&W Photography. 

But for the metering, I'll see in the store. [:
D: I just found out BestBuy doesn't have film cameras.
If I don't find any stores then I'll just have to buy it on Amazon. D:

Oh, and Malkav, your location made me laugh. "Boondocks". ;P


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## Mike_E (Aug 30, 2008)

Hi Sabrina. If I may ask, how do you daydream yourself as when you think about your being a photographer?

In a city with yelling and uniforms running around?

On Safari out on the savanna hoping that the lioness has fed?

At the Super Bowl or World Cup?  Or maybe shooting stars or politicians?

Maybe just in a small studio with a new mother and infant child?

Or traveling around with a really neat, funky old camera with as much character as you have?

We can't really fit you with a camera unless we know what you would like to do with it beyond getting an image on film.  A Ferrari and a moped will both get you to a destination but the real question is how you want to go.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Well..
That's pretty hard to answer because I want to be a photo-journalist but I also want to be taking pictures for magazine companies and such.
I also want a film camera to learn how to be a better photographer.
I can see myself doing anything with my camera, because I love taking pictures no matter where I am, or what I am doing.
So, it's pretty hard to answer that. :S

But the camera doesn't have to be really really professional, cuz I know those are kind of expensive, like 600$+ and 300$ range is fine for me. So I can always upgrade.
That's why I was starting to look at Rebels, cuz I heard they're good for starters/amateurs.

Although, I really like the last question about the funky old camera. Hah. But yeah.

I'm also going to be using the camera for a little free-lance photography job for family and friends to pay me for taking portraits and such.

Sorry, I'm not very good at answering your question.
D:
F for me. 
-Sabrina


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## henkelphoto (Aug 30, 2008)

Hi Sabrina!

I will add some hints to the above about Nikon cameras. I notice you said you wanted to go into photojournalism. The cameras I will mention will give you an idea of what it was like to work as a pj back when they were top of the line cameras. 

The Nikon F2as and F3hp were both considered top pro cameras at the time. Both are still rated very high as pro quality film cameras even though neither has auto focus and the F3 has only aperature auto exposure. Both are bulletproof (meaning you can basically use them as a hammer or weapon without damaging them too much). The F2as is a bit out of your price range (anywhere between $400-1000) but I just picked up a nice F3hp for $150. Both these cameras were used by pro photographers in the 60s through the 80s. They both have some problems for starting photographers, but they are great learning machines. The one sizeable problem is that neither have a hot shoe on them so you have to buy an adapter to mount a flash on them. (they are available on ebay also). Although these cameras will mount any lens that Nikon has ever made (with the exception of very early ones) "G" lenses do not have an aperature ring and can't be used in manual mode on them. And the F3 doesn't have the right pins to use them in auto mode.

Another camera that is nice but not quite up to pro level is the N90s. These have full auto focus and auto exposure. But it can also be used in full manual mode. One of the nice options this camera has is a motor drive is built in. Also a battery grip is available that allows you more battery power, and is a nice vertical grip with an added shutter button. These are available on ebay for around $50 or less in great condition. 

One thing I might mention is that even though you can use manual focus on these later cameras, (the N90s, N65 and N75) they are really designed for autofocus. The focusing screens used in them are basically a matte screen, not a split image that you would get in an older camera. If your eyes are not 100%, you will have difficulty focusing in manual with these cameras, especially with wide angle lenses. 

Nikon also has made some other great film cameras, but I fear they would also be out of your price range. F4, F5, F6 and the F100 are all great film cameras. All of these are autoexposure/autofocus with the ability of fully manual control. 

Jerry


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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Hm.
So you're Nikonian, huh?
Ha.
Hmm..
I'll research those.

On Amazon, a really popular good-reviewed camera is this one:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006I5ZB/ref=s9subs_c5_114_img1-rfc_p?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1VYD67TCBHXZE747E42X&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846[/ame]

D: I hate when there are a lot of options. D:

Oh, and what does "K" type mean?


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## henkelphoto (Aug 30, 2008)

It's a pentax mount. 

I used to be a canon guy. When I was working in Missouri, I ended up with 5 Canon bodies (3 F1s, an EF and a T90) with 12 lenses. But when they changed their lens mount to accomodate the new autofocus system, I had to buy new so I went with Nikon as I was working as a photo editor for AP by then and their pool equipment at the time was all Nikon. 

Jerry


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## anubis404 (Aug 30, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Oh and my budget..hmm..no more than US$350.00
> I saw that on Amazon there are used Rebels and even new ones for about 250-something,  so that's another reason why I was interested.
> But of course I'll be testing out the camera and how it feels at a store, beforehand.
> 
> ...



I'm not a big film person, I just happen to come across this thread. For about $400, you can get a digital SLR. For $50 more, I think its worth it. The money will come back to you in film and processing in no time.

If you're dead set on the film route, I agree with Big Mike. The Canon Rebel series are good SLRs for good prices. 

EDIT: If you want to learn I would go with digital, because you can take an infinite number of pictures with no cost. The best way to learn is take pictures. You can also see the picture instantly after you've taken it, and change how it looks using the camera's settings. Just my opinion.


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## Mike_E (Aug 30, 2008)

OK, I'm back. So you want to be a pro hmm?

This means that you are going to have to go digital fairly soon.

But, not just now.  Get something good and cheap and manual. I would suggest either an old Pentax or an old Minolta SRT 101/201.

Get a 24/28mm, a 50m, and an 85 to 100ish  for some portraits.  All of these manual and primes.  

These will do just what you need and when it's time to get your pro gear you won't have too much invested so that you can get into which ever brand you like. And you will be a photographer!


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## boogaguy (Aug 30, 2008)

Just go to ebay and buy a Nikon F5. Best 35mm film camera.
$450 and you can get one right now with the mb26 data back already on it.
Pick up a sb28 flash for it for cheap as dirt too and you've got an awesome film set up. 
If thats too expensive get an F100.
Like someone else said. Film cameras are very cheap now so just get the best and dont worry about shopping for entry level.


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## Mike_E (Aug 30, 2008)

Sabrina, another thought, if you know someone who knows about cameras you might make the rounds of the pawn shops in the area.

You might get the whole kit on the cheap.

I found a Nikon 24mm for $10 last week in one.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 30, 2008)

Well guys.. [:
I already have a digital camera, and I'm really good on it. 
Especially with the Digital Macro feature. -swoon- 
Haha. 
But yeah, I want to be good in digital AND film
[:
Plus film is so much more rewarding, in my opinion.

And I know nothing about Pawn shops.
xD

The only place I know that sells manual cameras/SLRs is..WolfCamera, but I don't know if they'll have the Rebel I want.


I was thinking if I saved my paychecks after buying everything i need for [this semester's] classes, I can buy an SLR & fully manual camera.
Cuz I know how I am, in the end I might do that.
And since everyone is saying how cheap the Old-fully manual cameras are, I just might. [:

Ahhhh!! I'm so confused. So should I get an SLR or just a Fully manual camera?

And @Anubis: Well, the SLRs on Amazon are pretty decent price-wise. Most of them, not even $400.00

And yes, I do want something for my 'entry level' but I also don't want a camera that I'll get bored of in no time. 
Cuz I do know the basics of Film Photography, having taken the half-quarter class as a junior in High School, but I want to refresh and sharpen my skills, and see what kind of pictures I can make with Film.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 31, 2008)

Oh, and I forgot where I saw this but is it true that on SLRs right after you take a picture, the picture you took pops up on the LCD so you can see how you took it?
=S


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## Battou (Aug 31, 2008)

Being a colledge student you should look at the older Canon lines such as the AE-1 and the like. they and their lenses are affordable and fully functional. If you are taking photogtraphy classes the AE-1 and the like commonly perferred by instructors over the EOS series due to their highly manual nature. Perferred to the point of cases where I have seen students having to replace an EOS with a more manual camera on a couple occations. Only drawback is the lenses do not mount onto the newer bodies be they digital or film. 

The FD series lens is a great series of manual lenses, given Canons decision to incorperate AF into the lens from the beginning the FD line went truly obsolete with launch of the EOS cameras. The FD and EF mounts will not interrchange with out the use of adapters, those adaptors are rare and often of poor quality. That said many people are selling their lenses after upgrading to the EOS bodies and glass is readilly available at reasonable prices. 

The Canon FD 50mm 1.8 and the Canon FD 50mm 1.4 where a kit lens back then, so they are readily available for under thirty bucks if your camera does not come with it from the get go (commonly 50mm 1.8). 

I have seen complete setups including body and several lenses, filters, flash and other misc accesseries go for under $200 (USD)

This is one time where inexpencive is not a scarifice in quality. Canons FD glass is comperable to the current lens series in quality.

Sample photos taken with Canon FD lenses on the Canon EF body

Sample#1
Sample#2
Sample#3
Sample#4
Sample#5

*EDIT*


Sbuxo said:


> I was thinking if I saved my paychecks after buying everything i need for [this semester's] classes, I can buy an SLR & fully manual camera.
> Cuz I know how I am, in the end I might do that.
> And since everyone is saying how cheap the Old-fully manual cameras are, I just might. [:
> 
> ...



There are fully manual SLR's, but I would advise just getting an SLR to start with and go from there, As I said above, the Canons from the seventies are a great combination of manual function with automated features.

If you want something really versital look into one of those Canon EFs like the one I linked earlier. It's a little harder to find and costs a little more but it is a wonderful camera.

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/Prod...=&ID=11&BC=CA&BCC=1&CC=2&CCC=1&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/Prod...=&ID=11&BC=CA&BCC=1&CC=2&CCC=1&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=




Sbuxo said:


> Oh, and I forgot where I saw this but is it true that on SLRs right after you take a picture, the picture you took pops up on the LCD so you can see how you took it?
> =S



Digital yes, film no, not that I have ever seen atleast.


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## Sbuxo (Aug 31, 2008)

Oh okay. That's what I thought, haha. [Film =/= picture pop up]

And so, I've been looking all over for those Nikon FMs but they're like..200$ everywhere I see. :S Ebay and Adorama..and other places I can't remember now.

I guess I'll end up buying an SLR and Nikon FM if I ever end up finding one.

I also like the Canon you suggested Battou, but I wouldn't know where to look for that one either.

D:


So which one is better..

Nikon FM vs. Canon AE-1?


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## Battou (Aug 31, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Oh okay. That's what I thought, haha. [Film =/= picture pop up]
> 
> And so, I've been looking all over for those Nikon FMs but they're like..200$ everywhere I see. :S Ebay and Adorama..and other places I can't remember now.
> 
> ...



In the post there are links to two of them being sold at KEH, and every now and agin they pop up on Ebay, I just bought a second one last week for a hundred fifty on two bidders and 4 bids, and there was a second one I was watching that went for only fifty bucks on five bidders and seven bids.

A quick check shows two currently on the auction block at E-bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EF-Film-C...ryZ15241QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The first one looks like it's going to get up there in price, but I will point it out because it's there (above). The other I don't antisipate going too high due to proformance affecting damage (below). That one is prolly not your best bet, but just in case.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CANON-EF-CAMERA...ryZ15241QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## epatsellis (Aug 31, 2008)

Sabrina, 
If you don't mind mail order, KEH is great, I typically buy bargain grade, and bgn F3hp are quite cheap. (around $125 or so) Add a 50 1.8 AIS lens for around $50 and you will have a camera that will last you a lifetime.


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## Mike_E (Aug 31, 2008)

Sabrina, don't do Anything until you have spoken to one of the professors in the photography department!!

I am in no way trying to be insulting here but you are demonstrating a high degree of confusion about all of this.  Having a face to face with a knowledgeable person is the best way to clear it all up.

Keep saving so that when you are sure of what you will need you will be able to proceed right away.


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## Battou (Aug 31, 2008)

Mike_E said:


> Sabrina, don't do Anything until you have spoken to one of the professors in the photography department!!
> 
> I am in no way trying to be insulting here but you are demonstrating a high degree of confusion about all of this.  Having a face to face with a knowledgeable person is the best way to clear it all up.
> 
> Keep saving so that when you are sure of what you will need you will be able to proceed right away.



Yes, Mike_E does have a point. There are a lot of things that seem to be conflicting indicitive to too much information at once. With a little patients we can clear up a bunch of it, but the professors in the photography department are really the only ones who can say for sure what is acceptable as far as what you will be needing. Here we (those of us who attended classes) tend to base our replies on what was required when we attended classes and/or assuming given observed tendancies. The only ones who can tell you definately are those who are making the rules so to speak.

Take what you have gathered here and ask them before buying. 



Additionally: To answer the question you edited in to your post that I did not see, the FM and AE-1 are rival cameras of a similar era, they will perform equally, the only advantage one will have over the other is in availability. I don't know about the availability of the FM, but I do know the AE-1 is everywhere and dirt common. You have no need to buy an AE-1 now, there is always over a dozen avalialbe on E-bay cheap,I have not bothered looking at KEH or B&H for an AE-1 but I assume they will have a couple. It's almost impossible to missout on a good AE-1 so you can wait as long as needed and still find one.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 1, 2008)

Ooh.
I would wait 'til talking to the professor but I wanted to start learning ahead of time and getting familiar with the camera before.


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## Battou (Sep 1, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Ooh.
> I would wait 'til talking to the professor but I wanted to start learning ahead of time and getting familiar with the camera before.



As always the decision it yours to make, If you wan't to take a gamble and get a head start, my recomendation is the AE-1 with 50mm lens. Inexpencive, fairly easy to read/use and almost a sure fire bet to be acceptable in entry level classes.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 2, 2008)

I've made up my mind to buy the fully manual 65$ camera from djacobox372, if he ever answers D:

And then in about two months or so I'll get a Rebel or so.


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## bhop (Sep 2, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> I've made up my mind to buy the fully manual 65$ camera from djacobox372, if he ever answers D:
> 
> And then in about two months or so I'll get a Rebel or so.



Um.. if you're planning on getting the Nikon manual camera, why would you get a Rebel later on, that won't be able to use your Nikon lenses?  

The FM is a good camera btw.. I have an FE, which is the same camera pretty much, but with Aperture Priority added into the mix although it doesn't work properly without a battery, while the FM can.

If you do get the FM, and the time comes when you're ready for a film camera upgrade, I would jump to the F100.  I just got mine this past weekend for $200 and it is an amazing camera.  I love it.  Probably the best camera i've ever used.  Plus it'll be able to meter your manual lenses leftover from the FM.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 2, 2008)

D:

So, I shouldn't get the Rebel after?

-sigh-
Knowing me, I'll still get it. <<


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## Battou (Sep 2, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> D:
> 
> So, I shouldn't get the Rebel after?
> 
> ...



Well....even if you where to get a Canon of that era, you would still be investing in new lenses for the rebel later.


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## anubis404 (Sep 2, 2008)

I would stick with a nikon (such as a Nikon N65, a competitor to the rebel) instead of the rebel so your lenses will be compatible.


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## Battou (Sep 2, 2008)

anubis404 said:


> I would stick with a nikon (such as a Nikon N65, a competitor to the rebel) instead of the rebel so your lenses will be compatible.



I'm not trying to detur Sbuxo, it would be the better course of action if the FM is the choice taken. I do however want to say, this is why I don't shoot Nikon, That lens compatability is what keeps Nikon glass prices stable and more expencive than the lenses I shoot with.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 3, 2008)

Eh, call me Sabrina and I'm not really worried about lenses.
Thanks though. [:


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## bhop (Sep 3, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Eh, call me Sabrina and I'm not really worried about lenses.
> Thanks though. [:



Lenses are actually the most important part of the camera *I think most would agree*  When your camera body breaks, or you get a new one, the lenses will still be around.  The image quality is mostly dependent on the quality of the lenses.  You could go through many bodies and use the same lenses on all of them for years to come, or you could keep buying new lenses every time you get a new camera.  

... but hey, it's your money.


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## Early (Sep 3, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Oh and my budget..hmm..no more than US$350.00
> I saw that on Amazon there are used Rebels and even new ones for about 250-something,  so that's another reason why I was interested.
> But of course I'll be testing out the camera and how it feels at a store, beforehand.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of bucks for a Rebel.  They're cheapies.  You can come away with say a N90s with a grip for less than that.


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## Paul Ron (Sep 3, 2008)

The Pentax K1000 is almost a standard when it comes to teaching cameras. They are very well built, plenty are still out there, and they are cheap. You cna find em form $60-$125 depending on if the meters is working n the condition they are in. 

I had several in my closet that my kids used in their school dayz but for some reason I can't seem to locate em right now. If I do find out what happend to em, I'll definately consider selling one to you at a very reasonable price... 

You wouldn't be interested in a MF camera?... Mamiya RB?

Paul Ron, NYC
automax1@juno.com


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## Sbuxo (Sep 3, 2008)

They are?

Even brand new?


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## monkeykoder (Sep 3, 2008)

As I'm sure has been said before in this thread a camera is a light tight box not much can go wrong with it if the meter is still find and the shutter still works film cameras are even more along these lines I would never hesitate to get a used film camera if I could try it out ahead of time.  Buy a used camera and focus on a good set of lenses and you'll be happy you did.


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## anubis404 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Eh, call me Sabrina and I'm not really worried about lenses.
> Thanks though. [:



I would be, just in case you wanted to get more serious. Nikon and Canon glass are about the same price, but if you decide to go serious you can get a better Nikon DSLR and still keep your lens, which is great.


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## Paul Ron (Sep 3, 2008)

Oh yeah if you get more serious, you'll buy a $3000 digital D3. But if you try to use your old "film" lenses, the auto focus n smart features won't work. SOOoooooo You'll be using your fancy spanking new digi camera$ in strictly manual mode. Sounds like fun. 

My 3 kids used their manual cameras in school (1980s), now they all sit in their closets, Nikons, Cannons n Pentax, complete kits with a full stable of lenses. Oh lets not forget the MF equipment I ahve been using since the 70s. 

Yeah, all have great glass... all are also in he used market cheaper than ever. I can't even get my money back on em with the prices so low so we keep in the closets.  

So spend your money wisely kids! Am I sounding like your dad now?


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## henkelphoto (Sep 3, 2008)

Although I love my Nikon film cameras, Paul Ron makes a good point. Pentax lenses are very high quality and are much cheaper than Nikon simply because Nikon lenses can still be used on their newer cameras. BUT, as he says, if you purchase a new Nikon digital body, you are going to want all the autofocus/autoexposure features of the new lenses. So the fact that you have all these old Nikon lenses won't mean squat. If you intend to just use this equipment for your classes, he makes a great point in buying cheap and later step up to new equipment to suit what you find yourself doing. 

Jerry


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## djacobox372 (Sep 3, 2008)

henkelphoto said:


> Although I love my Nikon film cameras, Paul Ron makes a good point. Pentax lenses are very high quality and are much cheaper than Nikon simply because Nikon lenses can still be used on their newer cameras. BUT, as he says, if you purchase a new Nikon digital body, you are going to want all the autofocus/autoexposure features of the new lenses. So the fact that you have all these old Nikon lenses won't mean squat. If you intend to just use this equipment for your classes, he makes a great point in buying cheap and later step up to new equipment to suit what you find yourself doing.
> 
> Jerry



Hmmm... I use 20+ year old mf lenses on my digital nikon nearly as much as I use AF lenses--they definitely mean a bit more then squat.

Also, keep in mind that you can use newer AF cpu lenses on a film body provided they are full frame and have an aperture ring.


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## Battou (Sep 3, 2008)

bhop said:


> Lenses are actually the most important part of the camera *I think most would agree*  When your camera body breaks, or you get a new one, the lenses will still be around.  The image quality is mostly dependent on the quality of the lenses.  You could go through many bodies and use the same lenses on all of them for years to come, or you could keep buying new lenses every time you get a new camera.
> 
> ... but hey, it's your money.



I was going to say that but I ran out of time and had to be somewhere.....but anyway


Yes, Glas is the most important peice of the puzzle, this is something you will learn very quickly in SLR photography. No one lens can do it all, more over no one body will last forever. Good Glass however when properly maintained will last decades and beyond, it is in your best interest to get cameras for the lenses as opposed to lenses for the camera.

On top of what bhop said, when buying ones first camera this does not apply, but once you have a body it is one of the biggest factors that should play into the second body.

Back in March of 87, Canon left a lot of seasoned veterans (amature and pro alike) with a very nasty desision to make with the launch of the EF mount lens. that decision was to do one of three things: 

Stick with the old bodies and obsolete glass
Buy an adaptor and sacrifice quality
Replace all their glass when they upgraded to the EOS series camera body.

The launch of the EF lens series made the thousands of dollars these photographers invested on their R/FL/FD lens arsonals meaningless should they want a _new_ body as they would have to spend thousands (Millions in some rare cases) to have the same versitility they had on the old mount. 

Now what you whete mentioning is similar in the way that that Nikkor 50mm ain't going to work on a rebel so you will have to spend hundreds to get a Canon 50mm. Slightly different in the way that spending money to build the versitility of two manufacturers as opposed to having existing versitility. 

Stick to one brand for now and build the versitility up and make the most of one manufacturer, you'll be glad you did.


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## Battou (Sep 3, 2008)

Paul Ron said:


> So spend your money wisely kids! Am I sounding like your dad now?



No...You sound like me, except you are pushing pentax wile I am pushing Canon


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## monkeykoder (Sep 3, 2008)

You know the best way to get a film camera???  Ask around if anyone you know has one they're looking to get rid of...


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## Battou (Sep 3, 2008)

monkeykoder said:


> You know the best way to get a film camera???  Ask around if anyone you know has one they're looking to get rid of...



Ironically, I've never done that, I should tho.


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## monkeykoder (Sep 3, 2008)

Hey my first 2 film cameras came from my dad who just happened to want to go digital (plus he hadn't used either in years).


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## Sbuxo (Sep 4, 2008)

@Paul: My dad would usually say "Don't spend your money AT ALL"


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## Paul Ron (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm not trying to push Pentax, although the most popular camera in school just happens to be K1000. I see em in classifieds selling cheap and in more closets than most other brands. My kids had em all, Nikon, Cannon, Pentax and all are still in thier closets. 

Buy anything but get the best price. Don't think any one brand is better... it's a starter camera. The idea is you learn the basic mechanics of photogrpahy and any manual camera will be perfect for that. Someone said it best... the camera is nothing more than a light tight box with a shutter. Right now the quality shouldn't be a factor because you'll be upgrading anyway. 

Also, I doubt you'll be wanting to slap on a 40 year old lens on your D3. I think you'll be investing in VR n specail glass lenses with less glare, better coatings, auto everything. 

Now if you were a MF/LF junkie... you wouldn't be thinking digital upgrades because your 40 year old lens will kick the filters off any of your newer equipment. Hooked on MF for life!

enjoy your class!

BTW my son gave his camera away to another student last year.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 4, 2008)

Like I said, my class[es] will be in January, therefore I want to start practicing now. But I've set my mind to buy both the Rebel & FM.


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## Paul Ron (Sep 4, 2008)

Yes, get your equipment way ahead of the class so you can be familiar with the camera and how it handels. 

Besides you have so many talented people here to help answer any of your questions, you'll be a pro by Jan. 

Just my 2¢... stick with a normal lens n a simple manual camera. I've always advised my students (optional) to get a hand held meter. You get a much better, more selective, reading and will be able to visualize your options at a glance instead of messing with on camera dials not knowing how the speed/ stop realationship works. 

Another selling point for a meter is compensation settings. By manipulating exposure/development, you can gain control over your negs that just can't be done on camera. I'm a zonie, (zone system user.) I manipulate my negatives way before any light hits the film and pre plan my development times very carefully. I need my meter right there in front of me. 

Burn alot of film n get as much practice as you can... have fun doing it. If you've been playing with digital.. .you alread developed an eye, now go get some skills.


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## Paul Ron (Sep 4, 2008)

Yes, get your equipment way ahead of the class so you can be familiar with the camera and how it handels. 

Besides you have so many talented people here to help answer any of your questions, you'll be a pro by Jan. 

Just my 2¢... stick with a normal lens n a simple manual camera. I've always advised my students (optional) to get a hand held meter. You get a much better, more selective, reading and will be able to visualize your options at a glance instead of messing with on camera dials not knowing how the speed/ stop realationship works. 

Another selling point for a meter is compensation settings. By manipulating exposure/development, you can gain control over your negs that just can't be done on camera. I'm a zonie, (zone system user.) I manipulate my negatives way before any light hits the film and pre plan my development times very carefully. I need my meter right there in front of me. 

Burn alot of film n get as much practice as you can... have fun doing it. If you've been playing with digital.. .you already developed an eye, now go get some skills.


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## epatsellis (Sep 4, 2008)

I'd echo what Paul says, and you'll know when you're ready to go MF or LF. (and hide your credit card when you do)

erie


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## Paul Ron (Sep 4, 2008)

Come on Erie... you can get a built like a russian tank Mamiya RB these days for $350, or an ETRS 645 for around the same money that willoutlast any digital camera on eh road today. Enlarger, $200 with a Nikor lens. Trays, $25, chems, $50, 11x14 paper, $100. IT'S THAT CHEAP? 

Now consider digital.... you'll need a decent camera... say $800 with a cheapo zoom lens. Oh now that we've got a nice camera we'll need a faster computer with a ton of memory, yeah get it cheap at Best Buy, $500. Oh but wait that's not all, the printer is everything in digital... another $400. But if you order before midnight... ink, paper software but not that's the cheapo part of it all... Oh and BTW only the best, or your pics look like crap. So what are we up to now?


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## LWW (Sep 4, 2008)

djacobox372 said:


> Nikon FM is a "full manual" camera with a light meter.  I can sell you this one for $65:


The king IMHO.

LWW


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## Sbuxo (Sep 4, 2008)

Oh. 
Well I'm gonna get the Canon Rebel EOS K2 35mm with the 28-90mm kit lens & then 50mm lens.

And I probably won't get the FM anymore..unless I find it for cheaper than what djacob is selling it for. D:


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## Josh66 (Sep 4, 2008)

I was looking at that a while ago (Rebel K2), but once I saw that it had a plastic mount I quickly decided not to.
A plastic mount on a lens isn't ideal, but on the camera I would avoid it at all costs.  (My personal opinion, of course.)

...It's something to consider.  If you're not going to be changing lenses frequently it might not be an issue though.


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## epatsellis (Sep 4, 2008)

Paul Ron said:


> Come on Erie... you can get a built like a russian tank Mamiya RB these days for $350, or an ETRS 645 for around the same money that willoutlast any digital camera on eh road today. Enlarger, $200 with a Nikor lens. Trays, $25, chems, $50, 11x14 paper, $100. IT'S THAT CHEAP?
> 
> Now consider digital.... you'll need a decent camera... say $800 with a cheapo zoom lens. Oh now that we've got a nice camera we'll need a faster computer with a ton of memory, yeah get it cheap at Best Buy, $500. Oh but wait that's not all, the printer is everything in digital... another $400. But if you order before midnight... ink, paper software but not that's the cheapo part of it all... Oh and BTW only the best, or your pics look like crap. So what are we up to now?




Just to jog your memory, I have 3 RBs, all the lenses except the 37 and 140, and about a dozen various backs, hoods, prism, etc..(and have been using them since the early 80's, sans a period in the late 90s when I put my photography away for a while) Yes, they are cheap, in fact I probably have more tied up in 120/220 film in the freezer then in cameras and lenses. But it's easy to spend lots on the little bits.

I feel, and I'm sure you agree, that buying an RB from ebay and the like is a crap shoot, people are better off in the long term buying one from you, or a dealer, that has been gone through and everything checked and adjusted. There are a lot of RBs out there that have seen hard use, and with some TLC, will last a lifetime, but there's so many "I don't know anything about cameras and it seems to work" type sellers that I'd hate to suggest that somebody go that route, either way, you'll end up spending it, might as well be for one that you know will work right off.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 5, 2008)

Grr..okay so all Rebels are plastic.
That's the only thing I don't like about it, along with that I don't see all black for it [k2]. D;


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## bhop (Sep 5, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Grr..okay so all Rebels are plastic.
> That's the only thing I don't like about it, along with that I don't see all black for it [k2]. D;



I think it only is made in silver.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah..or this dark grey color, which I think is o-k although Black is way better.


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## Josh66 (Sep 5, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Grr..okay so all Rebels are plastic.


You talking about the mount or the body?  I think some of them have metal mounts (just not the k2), but I'm not 100% sure...  I wouldn't worry too much about the body being plastic - almost everything in that price range is going to have a plastic body.


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## anubis404 (Sep 7, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Like I said, my class[es] will be in January, therefore I want to start practicing now. But I've set my mind to buy both the Rebel & FM.



If you want two bodies, I wouldn't buy both the rebel and the FM. They are made by different companies, and the lenses are incompatible. I would suggest  Nikon N65 and an FM. The Nikon N65 is very similar to the rebel, its just made by nikon, and your lenses will be compatible with both.


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## anubis404 (Sep 7, 2008)

Paul Ron said:


> Come on Erie... you can get a built like a russian tank Mamiya RB these days for $350, or an ETRS 645 for around the same money that willoutlast any digital camera on eh road today. Enlarger, $200 with a Nikor lens. Trays, $25, chems, $50, 11x14 paper, $100. IT'S THAT CHEAP?
> 
> Now consider digital.... you'll need a decent camera... say $800 with a cheapo zoom lens. Oh now that we've got a nice camera we'll need a faster computer with a ton of memory, yeah get it cheap at Best Buy, $500. Oh but wait that's not all, the printer is everything in digital... another $400. But if you order before midnight... ink, paper software but not that's the cheapo part of it all... Oh and BTW only the best, or your pics look like crap. So what are we up to now?



I got my digital with kit lens for $400. Anyone with a computer can use it, you don't need tons of memory. If you want prints, you can send them to snapfish for 9 cents a print. You're only going to spend $400 for a digital kit. You can use your computer without upgrades to edit your photos with gimp.


Compared to the $100 per month of processing for film, I would suggest digital.

So, that's about $500 for a digital, $200 for a film up front. After 8 months your price is $1000 if you go film. With digital, you get easy editing and free pictures. I've had absolutely no problems storing and editing my photos, and my computer is crap.

But wait, don't forget that scanner...


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## epatsellis (Sep 7, 2008)

We all have different quality expectations, I suppose. 

I process all my own film, including color, and scan and print as needed. I can typically have a 120 roll of images ( 10 6x7 negatives) processed and scanned within an hour. minmal post is usually needed, and I have 100mb 16 bit images ready to use. My experience in commercial work is the opposite, the capture takes less time, but then most people will have to screw with it for at least 10 mins per capture to have an image that is good enough to present to a client. So where are the time savings?

Most schools require you to shoot film, typically b&w to start. There is a big difference between film and digital, exposure wise among other things. Knowing the process intimately does make you a better photographer, in my opinion.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm not gonna buy the FM anymore.
Now, I want to choose between the K2 or the T2 [Canon Rebel]

I already know the biggest difference between the two is the lens mount, that the T2's is metal and the K2.

But I really don't know what this means, besides being what the lens is screwed onto.
Metal I heard, is more durable, but if I get the T2 does that mean I can only put metal lenses on it, or am I completely off the mark? I probably am. D; And will the lenses be more expensive for the T2 because of this, or are all the lenses that can go on the K2 can also go on the T2?

But if I buy the K2, it's plastic and everyone I've asked about it so far has said 'Boo' to plastic. Is it bad in durability or just that it cannot withstand any rough-handling? 

Is it possible for someone to show me a picture of both types of mounts?
I'm sorry for being so lost. D;


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## Josh66 (Sep 7, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> I'm not gonna buy the FM anymore.
> Now, I want to choose between the K2 or the T2 [Canon Rebel]
> 
> I already know the biggest difference between the two is the lens mount, that the T2's is metal and the K2.
> ...








Not the Rebel T2, but the mount is the same.  The plastic one will look exactly the same - except made from plastic.

All Canon EOS cameras use the same lenses.  (With the exception of EF-S lenses, you can only use those on non-full frame digital bodies)

Metal is more durable than plastic (obviously...).  Most lenses have a metal mount (my kit lens is plastic, not sure which other ones also are), if you have a metal lens rubbing against a plastic mount guess what's going to wear away first.  It would probably take a very long time for the mount to wear to the point that it needed replaced, but I would rather not take the chance.  I personally wouldn't buy the one with the plastic mount, but in reality you would probably upgrade bodies before it wore out.

You can still use any lens - metal or plastic mount.

(BTW...  Does anybody know what that little red button on the bottom right of my 10s does?  It is a button, you can push it in and all that.  I haven't been able to figure out what it does though.)


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## Sbuxo (Sep 7, 2008)

Okay, but will the metal one end up being more expensive. Not the body, but lenses I would want to buy in the future?


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## Josh66 (Sep 7, 2008)

They use the same lenses, it doesn't matter which body you get (as far as the lenses go).


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## Sbuxo (Sep 9, 2008)

So..for the plastic to wear, how long are you talking?
Years? Months? Weeks?
So would T2 be better?


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

I guess it depends on usage, but you're probably talking years.  The plastic one is probably OK, I just don't like plastic...

If it was going to be _my_ new camera, I'd get the T2.  Is the mount the only difference?  (Gonna go read up to see if anything else is different...)


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

Max shutter speeds
K2: 1/2000
T2: 1/4000

K2: 1.5 frames per second
T2: 3 frames per second

Flash Sync speeds
K2: 1/90
T2: 1/125

Doesn't look like the K2 has mirror lock-up either.

K2
T2

I would get the T2.


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## randerson07 (Sep 9, 2008)

O|||||||O said:


> (BTW...  Does anybody know what that little red button on the bottom right of my 10s does?  It is a button, you can push it in and all that.  I haven't been able to figure out what it does though.)



Isnt that the Depth of Field Preview button?

You set your cameras Aperture, then you push that button and the blades move into place as if it was going to take the picture so you can get an Idea of the DOF.

I use it alot for landscape type shots where im focusing on something in the foreground.


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

randerson07 said:


> Isnt that the Depth of Field Preview button?
> 
> You set your cameras Aperture, then you push that button and the blades move into place as if it was going to take the picture so you can get an Idea of the DOF.
> 
> I use it alot for landscape type shots where im focusing on something in the foreground.


No (just tried to make sure).  The 10s doesn't have a DOF preview button, but you can reassign the exposure lock (I think) button to act as a DOF preview button.  Maybe I should ask in a new thread so this one doesn't get cluttered up...


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## Sbuxo (Sep 9, 2008)

Oh. Okay. I guess I'll consider getting T2 more now. I still wish they had it in black..it looks so cheap with silver/grey. ;S


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

You could always paint it...


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## Sbuxo (Sep 9, 2008)

._. whaatt??


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

Just make sure the lens cap is on.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 9, 2008)

Heh.

By the way..everywhere else I check, says the T2 doesn't have mirror lock up either. =x Or..were you just saying the k2 doesn't have it also. ;S


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## Josh66 (Sep 9, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> Heh.
> 
> By the way..everywhere else I check, says the T2 doesn't have mirror lock up either. =x Or..were you just saying the k2 doesn't have it also. ;S


According to this site (which I found by googling 'canon rebel t2 specs') it has mirror lockup "with mirror lockup" - I assume that means it's a custom function.  The page for the K2 doesn't mention it at all, so I'm led to believe it doesn't have it...


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## Battou (Sep 9, 2008)

O|||||||O said:


> You could always paint it...



Actually I've really been thinking about doing some body painting lately. The cameras I have to work with should be easy. 




O|||||||O said:


> According to this site (which I found by googling 'canon rebel t2 specs') it has mirror lockup "with mirror lockup" - I assume that means it's a custom function.  The page for the K2 doesn't mention it at all, so I'm led to believe it doesn't have it...



I saw nothing on a mirror lock on the T2 Here. It's usually listed.


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## Sbuxo (Sep 10, 2008)

O|||||||O said:


> Max shutter speeds
> K2: 1/2000
> T2: 1/4000
> 
> ...



Is 1/2000<1/4000, what does this mean shutter speed-wise? Which one is faster? ;s

Same w/ Flash Sync.


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## Josh66 (Sep 10, 2008)

The T2 has a faster max shutter speed (twice as fast at 1/4000th of a second), the flash sync speed is also faster (1/90th sec vs. 1/125th sec).


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## Sbuxo (Sep 10, 2008)

oo
okay.


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## ksmattfish (Sep 11, 2008)

Sbuxo said:


> ~overwhelmed~



Just buy any cheap Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Ricoh, etc...  Something you've heard of.  Find one under $100.  You can get a Ricoh KR-5 (pretty much the same camera as the Nikon FM-10) for $35 on Ebay; it uses Pentax K mount lenses.  Shoot with it for 6 months or a year.  After that you'll have a much better understanding about what features you'd like in a 35mm SLR or DSLR, and will be better prepared to make a good choice.


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