# Sony wins... (this post is still Nikon related :)



## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

Sony just announced their DSLR 'style' A3000 camera.  Why should you, as a Nikon user, care?  

Simple answer... the A3000 is a 'DSLR style' camera that uses Sony's NEX E-Mount lenses.   In Nikon terms... a 20mp DX sized sensor in a DSLR form factor using exiting mirrorless lenses.  And its priced at $399 (with lens).

$399US... with lens... for a 20mp DX sensor MIRRORLESS camera that uses a well established lens system.

I sure hope the Nikon D1000 that has been 'leaked' is a mirrorless camera that uses DX lenses.


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## shadowlands (Aug 27, 2013)

I'll pass. But sure some folks will like it.


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## Designer (Aug 27, 2013)

Why should we care what they do? 

Apart from say; discontinuing an entire line, most of what the camera companies do actually benefit us.


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## SCraig (Aug 27, 2013)

You use the word "MIRRORLESS" as if it's a benefit and should have an exclamation point following it.  As shadowlands said,


shadowlands said:


> I'll pass. But sure some folks will like it.


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

When your little old Aunt walks into a BestBuy looking for a cupcake/doilies/Pinterest Camera what is she going to buy?  The salesman/saleskid is going to show her a Sony A3000 for $400 that works with lenses that can be used with the top of the line $1.2k NEX-7.

He/She will then show her a $600 Nikon body that the lenses won't work the D600/D800 sitting right next to it.  How confusing is Nikons current DX line up? (How many 'why should i get a D7100 vs D5200' threads are on here?) Where is the full set of DX lenses?

If you don't think Trey Ratcliff's rants don't matter then you are not one of his 50+ million monthly unique visitors.  Having somebody that popular ditch Nikon (and constantly bring it up) isn't a good thing.

Nikon's pre-announcement of the D1000 wasn't a mistake...  It was an attempt to show they still are relevant.  

Read Nikons latest financial results presentation.
Read what Thom Hogan has to say on what he calls 'Last Camera Syndrome'.

A $400 interchangeable camera that looks like a DSLR (even though its basically just a point-n-shoot) is an awesome 'hook' to get people into Sony's FULL NEX system. 

Where is Nikons Hook?

Where is Nikons DX love?  D400? Lenses? My next Nikon body (d800's replacment) will probably be my last.. At least for the next decade..  I won't need anything else.. Nikon knows this. 

The Market/$$$ is in the Newbies!


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## 480sparky (Aug 27, 2013)

My little old Aunt is gonna buy a $100 P&S. She won't give a rat's arse about lenses or compatibility or anything else. She just wants a camera that has a shutter button.


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## Designer (Aug 27, 2013)

We are the niche.  Most people can't tell the difference between pictures, let alone cameras.  

I know people who just rave over their smart phone pics, and the various apps that do neat things.

They look at my entry-level DSLR and think it is a "professional" camera.  

Those people would never pay $400 for just a camera.


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

People want the cool DSLR look... the 'image' the camera gives off is sometimes more important then the image the camera takes.

I walk youth sporting event fields every weekend.  I am CONSTANTLY being asked 'what camera should i get?'.  You'd be surprised how many people THINK you need a DSLR to take a good picture.  I should start recording peoples reactions when i show them my ~$500 Sony RX100 and say it takes just as good pictures as my DSLR... 99.5% of the time they don't believe me.

Most people just need a good SmartPhone.
A very small % of people need a DSLR.


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

Designer said:


> We are the niche.  Most people can't tell the difference between pictures, let alone cameras.
> 
> I know people who just rave over their smart phone pics, and the various apps that do neat things.
> 
> ...



Those are EXACTLY the people to pay $400 for the DSLR 'look'  ..  The thing is though.. that $400 gives you an entry into a full 'professional' system.  Nikons entry level DSLR doesn't.


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## OLaA (Aug 27, 2013)

TheLost said:


> When your little old Aunt walks into a BestBuy looking for a cupcake/doilies/Pinterest Camera what is she going to buy?  The salesman/saleskid is going to show her a Sony A3000 for $400 that works with lenses that can be used with the top of the line $1.2k NEX-7.
> 
> He/She will then show her a $600 Nikon body that the lenses won't work the D600/D800 sitting right next to it.  How confusing is Nikons current DX line up? (How many 'why should i get a D7100 vs D5200' threads are on here?) Where is the full set of DX lenses?
> 
> ...




I'm confused by the point of this thread?  I'm not even a Nikon guy, but I assume everyone that browses this forum doesn't have a personal stake in to Nikon's footing in the market place.  They are end users who made purchases based off their needs which I'm sure doesn't factor what the general public needs.  So again, why should anyone care what Sony's latest move is if it doesn't hinder anyone's current gear or innovate some "new" technology of capturing stills?


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2013)

People might want the cool DSLR look, but they also know that a "big camera" is what gives "big camera image quality". If all people wanted was the dlsr look, then Olympus OM-D E-M5 with its fake d-slr pentaprism would have been a runaway sales success, but it has not been. Mirrorless, in fact, is a huge sales FLOP everywhere in the world, except the Japan home market. So, it's evident at some level that consumers, as ignorant and ill-informed as many expect them to be, and not flocking to the mirrorless cameras. Shipments of mirrorless cameras are pathetic. Sales are even worse. Even though prices are lower on mirrorless than on many d-slr models, d-slr models, with their APS-C and FF sized sensors, are selling better than smaller, lighter, newer mirrorless designs. Which is what makes me doubt your predictions of sales success for a $399 camera that "looks like" a d-slr. I just do not believe that a lens mount shared with the Sony NEX system is a real-world sales feature, since the NEX system has had such a limited, narrow adoption.

If the camera used Canon, or Nikon lenses, then it would stand a chance, but Sony's NEX mount is a very tiny segment of the legacy lenses in the world; what, maybe .25% of all the lenses in the world are Sony NEX lenses? Their "mount" share in current existence is basically nothing. Now, if this kind of new camera used Nikon F-mount lenses, or Canon EF mount lenses, then there would already be 75+ million Nikkors in the world, and what? 90 million, is it?, Canon EF lenses already in drawers and camera bags and homes across the world. I know about 10 people who are into photography pretty big-time...not one owns a Sony NEX.

As for Sony winning anything...they are the company that could not even win sales with the A850 full-frame d-slr dropped to $1899 against the $7999 Nikon D3x or Canon 1D-series bodies or the Canon 5D Mark II...Sony practically GAVE AWAY their A900, then the lower-cost but almost-the-same- A850 full-frame, and could not gain any market share, even with a BETTER camera than the Canon 5D-II, and at far lower prices. Sony as a company cannot even turn a profit. For years on end. Predicting a "win" for Sony is a really bold, silly move, based on their dismal performance in the recent past.


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## apvm (Aug 27, 2013)

IMO it is a nice camera and the price is right too but electronic view finder kill the deal for me.


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

OLaA said:


> I'm confused by the point of this thread?  I'm not even a Nikon guy, but I assume everyone that browses this forum doesn't have a personal stake in to Nikon's footing in the market place.



This thread is just hear to waste time...  to armchair quarterback...  to pretend like we (Nikon's user base) matter..

As a Nikon user/owner/fan for over 20+ years I think they (Nikon) is on the wrong path.


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## coastalconn (Aug 27, 2013)

Just a guess but I would think Nikon will counter in the next 36 hours and release the d1000. Or whatever they choose to call it.  The rumors originally said the end of august and they like to make announcements on Wednesdays..  I'm pretty disappointed the way Nikon seems to be headed also.


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2013)

TheLost said:


> OLaA said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused by the point of this thread?  I'm not even a Nikon guy, but I assume everyone that browses this forum doesn't have a personal stake in to Nikon's footing in the market place.
> ...



If you read too much Thom Hogan, you'll certainly be convinced that Nikon is on the wrong path. The way Thom tells it, Nikon would function flawlessly if he were the CEO. And yet, the company continues to make the highest-rated d-slrs, and some of the best system lenses, and has some of the best metering, flash metering, and multi-flash remote control systems yet developed. And while virtually ALL of the other compact P&S camera makers are going down the toilet, Nikon somehow has managed to stay even in a market that's much more than halfway down the $hi++er. Every week, Thom has some new ***** session about all the things Nikon is doing wrong, and yet despite that, he continues to churn out Complete Guide to The Nikon _______, as decades-long Nikon owners and newcomers to the system alike continue to buy Nikon's God-awful products like the D800 and the D7100, and horrible lenses like the 24-70 and 70-200 and 14-24 AF-S models...not to mention those dreadful Nikon TTL flash units...


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Predicting a "win" for Sony is a really bold, silly move, based on their dismal performance in the recent past.



First... if you look at my past posts you'll see I've bashed Sony quite a bit (i don't think im allowed on the Sony forum any more  ).  However, Sony has a full system with their NEX cameras (APS-C sized sensors).  Where is Nikons full DX system?  Take a look at the E-Mount lenses available and tell me you wouldn't mind some of them for Nikon DX.

Your comments about mirrorless cameras are mostly true..  but remember, the NEX system is based on APS-C sensors (DX). Some are the same (rumored) sensors found in Nikons (D7000 = NEX-5n).  These aren't tiny m4/3 or 1 series sensor cameras.

This year in canyonlands, arches and zions i've seen more Sony NEX bodies on tripods then ever before.  Take a look at Amazon US's Best Selling Compact Camera's... Amazon Best Sellers: best Compact System Camera Bundles


PS.  You couldn't pay me to use a Sony Alpha DSLR


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2013)

Yes, Sony has some best sellers in the *CSC bundles being sold on Amazon.com* category....lol...

CSC or compact system camera sales are pathetic. The simple facts are that mirrorless camera sales are nose-diving. Yes, there was a good little spurt of manufacturing of mirroless cameras for about 10 months, and the mirroless fans got very excited (with some real _mirrorless-will-be-king!!!_ fanatics even soiling themselves...), buuuut, unfortunately, mirrorless shipments and sales have taken a dump. However, on Amazon, in the *compact system camera mirrorless bundles being sold on Amazon.com* category, the Sony NEX cameras seem to be doing pretty well. Wow. That's a lot like being the King of Podunk County, Georgia.

That's quite a cherry-picked category. I'm laughing.

And April Makes Four | Sans Mirror ? mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan

"The production number for mirrorless in April was only 58.7% of last year, while the production number for DSLRs was 102.5% of last year. In other words, the DSLR camera makers are still making cameras at the same volume as last year, while the mirrorless makers have cut back. This has implications on _future_ CIPA shipment numbers. And it's not a one-month trend: the lower-production-than-shipment trend for mirrorless has been going for three months now. Clearly the mirrorless makers have cut back on what they think the market will absorb in terms of mirrorless cameras."

"...it simply acknowledges what I wrote over a year ago: mirrorless cameras will not overtake DSLR sales any time in the near future. The initial high growth rate of mirrorless was a false one: the camera makers overzealously produced them when the demand wasn't really there. "

Sony is a company that has been unable to make a profit for literally like, seven YEARS in a row, quarter after quarter. They TRIED to gain market share against Canon and Nikon, but failed. The fact that they are having success in CS bundles on Amazon is good for them. It's kind of like being the big fish in a very tiny pond. Despite perceived shortcomings in their respective products, both Canon and Nikon have remained #1 and #2 for multiple decades now.

But the simple fact remains...mirrorless sales took almost a 40% dump over the last year. Meanwhile d-slr production gained 2.5% points. CSC bundled systems, being sold on Amazon.com...wow...the leading class of products sold by one vendor, in one category, with steadily declining sales world-wide.

I wonder what movie titles lead in Sony Betamax copies sold? And I wonder what the leading movie titles are on laser disc?


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

Ok.. i'll admit.. i used the best category 

And.. you cant deny mirrorless sales are tanking.

And.. Sony as a company isn't doing that great.

But.. You cant deny that the NEX system isn't just as good as any DSLR system 98% of the time (action/sports is where it falls).

What camera are these taken with?

















Did you guess a APS-C (DX) $398 camera kit.. that's mirrorless.. but looks like a tiny DSLR?
19 picture`s A3000 & ZEISS16-70 F4 - Dyxum forums - Page 1

If you ask me... the reason mirrorless sales are tanking is because people THINK DSLR's are better.  There will come a time when that perception changes... and when it does Nikon will be in trouble.

*edit* Im not promoting the NEX system...  Im saying Nikon's comparable system (DX) doesn't offer the user as clear of an upgrade path.. or as many lens options (DX lenses).  Nikons DX system is a mess... and the soon-to-be-announced D1000 is only going to make it even more confusing.


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2013)

I do agree--the NEX system is a nice mirrorless system. YES, it is a neat camera, now that they fixed the accidental movie-filming bug that plagued the NEX 6 and NEX 7 with a firmware update.

A lot of great ideas fail to gain traction.Oh, what could have been? (the biggest products flops in history) | A Whole Lot of Nothing

I've watched the camera business since the mid-1970's. The camera makers ALWAYS try to come up with "*the next big thing*". Polaroid pack film; Instamatic 126: Instamatic 110: Polaroid SX-70 film pack system; Kodak Disc format: the HUGE and catastrophic flop that sunk Minolta, the APS-C format film system that premiered before digital hit; rangefinder 35mm; 35mm SLR; compact 35mm SLR; autofocus 35mm SLR; point and shoot 35mm; superzoom P&S 35mm cameras like the IQ Zoom series from Pentax; and so on and so on. Every 10,15 years the camera makers have tried to create "*the next big thing*".

The next big thing is what the camera makers hopes will get millions and millions of customers to go out and buy all-new stuff. What's complicating matters is that, now, the everyday camera has been fused with the smart phone. Same with the family camcorder...people can shoot good video clips with their...phones. The practical effect is that people seem to be using smartphones for daily use, but when it comes time for a high-quality camera, people go with what they assume is going to be the highest-quality choice. Perception drives reality, but reality also drives perception. Every time Joe Hobbyist reads an article about the amazing image quality of a full-frame Canon d-slr or a Nikon D800, or sees a clip with a nature or shorts photographer at an NFL game shooting a 400/2.8 or a 600/4 Big Glass optic, the supremacy of the halo products is further reinforced. I saw the same thing selling cameras years ago; people bought 28-90mm, then 28-105mm superzoom P&S compacts for two years...then autofocus 35mm systems, Canon EOS, Nikon, and Minolta, took back the market.

This is an interesting discussion. I don't want to dissuade anybody from buying into the NEX system. I just have decades' worth of experience watching the camera makers TRY to break the existing paradigm and to REPLACE it with a new paradigm, with almost universally, failures.


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## TheLost (Aug 27, 2013)

I wasn't advocating the 'next big thing' .. I'm saying that Sony has done what others cant, offer a complete solution. I'm saying Nikon needs to firm up its product line.

D1000 = Mirrorless DX Entry level...  Small, portable, cheap, uses DX lenses.
D3200 = Mirrorless DX Adv. level... Small, portable, mid-price, advanced features, uses DX lenses.
D5200 = DSLR DX Mid level... DSLR, Mid-Price, Mid range features, Uses DX lenses.
D7200 = DSLR DX Adv. level... DSLR, Higher price, more features, (large buffer), DX Lenses
(yada.. yada.. FX path)

Lets assume the D1000 comes out with a 20mp sensor... now we get a new flood of "Why a D3200 over a D1000" threads piled up next to the "Why D7100 over D5200" threads.

And again... this thread is just a way to speculate the future..  complain about how things are now... and waste some time


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## 480sparky (Aug 27, 2013)

TheLost said:


> .........What camera are these taken with?............



ILCE-3000.

Next question.


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## sleist (Aug 27, 2013)

Every camera produced today is capable of taking excellent images.  This is where we are right now in terms of sensors and lenses.
But every camera is not capable of taking excellent images under all circumstances.  Posting a few nice pics does not tell the whole story.
Ultimately, you need to know what you need.  The landscape is filled with compromised hardware  - sometimes priced at a premium that is not always justified.


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## sleist (Aug 27, 2013)

TheLost said:


> I sure hope the Nikon D1000 that has been 'leaked' is a mirrorless camera that uses DX lenses.



The D1000?  No.
The D400?  Quite possibly.


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## yioties (Aug 27, 2013)

That zeiss is a $1000 lens so how many people do you think are going to buy the sony and invest in a second lens? Most people treat these mirorless cameras as point and shoots and want to pay the $400 and that's it!


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## sandollars (Aug 27, 2013)

Derrel said:


> TheLost said:
> 
> 
> > OLaA said:
> ...



Derrell, You just saved me 10 minutes of my life!  What ^^ said..


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## gsgary (Aug 28, 2013)

You can stick your Sony where the sun does not shine


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## runnah (Aug 28, 2013)

gsgary said:


> You can stick your Sony where the sun does not shine



England?


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## gsgary (Aug 28, 2013)

runnah said:


> England?



Its been shinning lovely for weeks


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## runnah (Aug 28, 2013)

gsgary said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > England?
> ...



Fine, Wales then.


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## TheLost (Aug 28, 2013)

sleist said:


> Every camera produced today is capable of taking excellent images.  This is where we are right now in terms of sensors and lenses.
> But every camera is not capable of taking excellent images under all circumstances.  Posting a few nice pics does not tell the whole story.
> Ultimately, you need to know what you need.  The landscape is filled with compromised hardware  - sometimes priced at a premium that is not always justified.



Exactly my point...  

I have no problem telling people to spend money on Nikon FX bodies and good glass if they need it.  Most people don't need a D600/D800/D4 with a bag full of f/2.8 glass.

For the normal consumer though..  Why would you recommend they buy a Nikon DX system?


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## gsgary (Aug 28, 2013)

runnah said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



Don't know but there are lots of leeks


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## Derrel (Aug 28, 2013)

TheLost said:
			
		

> For the normal consumer though..  Why would you recommend they buy a Nikon DX system?



AGAIN, after having read Thom Hogan's "DX Month" series of articles exploring each and every aspect of the entire DX Nikon world, one could easily come away from his incessant negativity thinking that Nikon offers absolutely NOTHING worth wanting in their entire DX lineup. Except for the best-rated DX bodies in terms of sensor performance, affordable new primes, affordable new macro lenses, good zooms, fabulous flashes, and affordable prices. Why buy a Nikon DX system? Oh...maybe the best sensors available in DX, with higher resolution, wider dynamic range, and richer color than anything Canon has...Canon is STILL re-issuing the 18-MP APS-C sensor they premiered in the Canon 7D back in 2009. Maybe a buyer would like one of the best metering and flash metering systems ever devised. Maybe a buyer would like access to six decades' woorth of F-mouint lenses in the "Baby Nikon" models D3xxx and D5xxx series models? I dunno...maybe the 10.5mm fisheye, and the very wide-angle DX Nikkors, the short macro, the 85 macro, the remote commander flash system stuff? The amazing lenses?

I dunno...I looked at the Nikon d-slr overview from 2010...there are only MORE lenses today...

Nikon digital SLR system explained at Photo.net

Looks pretty good, actually...I'm sure though that Hogan could find some stuff to ***** about...and yet, Nikon is JUST below Canon in sales, year after year...huh...


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## Newtricks (Aug 28, 2013)

Perhaps it's me... I fail to see how this topic has anything to do with Nikon at all, have no idea who this Thom Hogan is, nor why I should care. When making the change from film to digital this month, Canon and Nikon where the only brands I considered. Never gave a thought to looking at, let alone buying a mirrorless camera at any price.


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## TheLost (Aug 28, 2013)

Newtricks said:


> Perhaps it's me... I fail to see how this topic has anything to do with Nikon at all, have no idea who this Thom Hogan is, nor why I should care. When making the change from film to digital this month, Canon and Nikon where the only brands I considered. Never gave a thought to looking at, let alone buying a mirrorless camera at any price.



.... And you probably bought a FX Body (D600, D800, D4 or maybe a D700).  Nobody can argue that Nikon's FX system ins't good.

The entire point of this thread (other then wasting time as i've said multiple times) is to point out:
1) DX is stagnating.
2) that Nikon's 1 system is a flop.  

Yet Nikon announced 'Accelerating shifting newer products in the entry class of DSLR' and 'Reconsider product planning of Nikon 1'.

While Nikon tries to keep relevant in that market...  Sony is "Kill'n it" (as my kids would say) with fresh new products and a complete system.  

Nikon is following... not leading.


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## pixmedic (Aug 28, 2013)

TheLost said:


> Newtricks said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps it's me... I fail to see how this topic has anything to do with Nikon at all, have no idea who this Thom Hogan is, nor why I should care. When making the change from film to digital this month, Canon and Nikon where the only brands I considered. Never gave a thought to looking at, let alone buying a mirrorless camera at any price.
> ...



I don't see DX as stagnating. well, maybe Canon's DX line, but not Nikon's. 
they have been steadily upgrading the DX lines right along side their FX bodies. 
the D7000 was a nice improvement over the D5xxx line, and the more recent D7100 an improvement over that.  (lack of a D400 aside)
and before THAT, the D3200 made some nice waves with its 24mp sensor, which the D5200 got as well. 
lot of nice DX lenses, and Sigma must think that DX isnt going away TOO soon since they just released their new DX 18-35 f/1.8 zoom. 

I have no doubt that nikon and canon are pushing for a larger FX market share, given that both companies have released affordable entry level FX bodies, but I don't see either company lacking in new DX bodies. there is just too much of a consumer market for them, and i would imagine both canon AND nikon make FAR more money from their DX lineup than their FX, meaning they will continue to produce them as long as it is significantly cheaper to do so compared to FX cameras.


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## yioties (Aug 28, 2013)

The only thing Sony is killing is their stock value and credit rating!


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## Newtricks (Aug 28, 2013)

TheLost said:


> .... And you probably bought a FX Body (D600, D800, D4 or maybe a D700).



Actually went with the Dx formatted D7000. It's a giant leap forward from the full manual Minolta X-700 - 1:4.5 f=200mm rig I was using the first week of this month.



TheLost said:


> The entire point of this thread (other then wasting time as i've said multiple times) is to point out:
> 1) DX is stagnating. 2) that Nikon's 1 system is a flop.



I've read where you stated you where "wasting time", seemed to me you where trying to invoke conversation, I shouldn't assume. No information or personal opinion as to whether or not, system 1 is a flop, I do know I can use any Nikon AF-S/ AF-I lens on my DX body... with a loss of angle of view. 



TheLost said:


> Sony is "Kill'n it" (as my kids would say) with fresh new products and a complete system.



While Sony my be "Killing it" with the kids and other folk who don't know what a Gossen meter is, nor how to use one for that matter and shoot away without a thought to composition because they can delete whatever didn't work when they get home (don't have to develop the film), it doesn't mean there is not a place in the market for a less expensive or "Entry level" DLSR for folks like myself.


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## Solarflare (Aug 29, 2013)

The D1000 is a DSLR. It is inspired by the Canon 100D. Nikon doesnt really look too hard at Sony/Pentax offerings. Usually. Because they arent really that relevant in the big picture. Canon offerings are.

And the Sony camera is pretty crappy ... no wonder, its (a) Sony (which means lack of good automatics etc) and (b) very, very cheap.

I btw like the new camera more than the old "checkcard with a huge lens attached" look. Its stil ugly, but no longer even uglier than a normal DSLR, and it should at least be functional now; i.e. it should be more comfortable to hold and use.


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## TheLost (Aug 29, 2013)

Newtricks said:


> Actually went with the Dx formatted D7000. It's a giant leap forward from the full manual Minolta X-700 - 1:4.5 f=200mm rig I was using the first week of this month.



Do you know that Sony makes the sensor in your D7000?   And its the same sensor used in a few of its NEX mirrorless cameras.   



Newtricks said:


> I've read where you stated you where "wasting time", seemed to me you where trying to invoke conversation, I shouldn't assume. No information or personal opinion as to whether or not, system 1 is a flop, I do know I can use any Nikon AF-S/ AF-I lens on my DX body... with a loss of angle of view.


It's not my personal opinion that the 1 system isn't doing well... Its Nikon's.
Nikon rethinks 1 System and cuts 2013 forecast citing poor sales: Digital Photography Review

Nikon sold the V1 for $899 when it first came out...  The following holiday season it could be found for $299.  My opinion is that they shot themselves in the foot like the rest of the mirrorless cameras by flooding the market with new models.

Its my opinion that the V1 is a GREAT camera.  I've always had great results playing with it.



Newtricks said:


> While Sony my be "Killing it" with the kids and other folk who don't know what a Gossen meter is, nor how to use one for that matter and shoot away without a thought to composition because they can delete whatever didn't work when they get home (don't have to develop the film), it doesn't mean there is not a place in the market for a less expensive or "Entry level" DLSR for folks like myself.



I suggest you read this article..
Hello Sony. Goodbye Nikon. The Story of why I am Switching from Nikon to Sony.
While you may note agree with his style of photography..  millions of people flock to his website and webcasts monthly.  He also makes a VERY comfortable living selling his images (and his 'brand') using what you would call an "Entry Level" camera.


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## TheLost (Aug 29, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> I don't see DX as stagnating. well, maybe Canon's DX line, but not Nikon's.
> they have been steadily upgrading the DX lines right along side their FX bodies.
> the D7000 was a nice improvement over the D5xxx line, and the more recent D7100 an improvement over that.  (lack of a D400 aside)
> and before THAT, the D3200 made some nice waves with its 24mp sensor, which the D5200 got as well.
> ...



The key fact here is that Nikon has no problem cranking out little updates to their DX bodies...  But where are the DX lenses? Where are the PRO DX bodies?

Would you buy a +$1k DX lens?  I wouldn't... I'd buy the closest FX lens to that range because NIKON WANTS ME IN FX.  Lots of people agree with me that DX is dying in the DSLR world.  The market will push DX into the mirrorless consumer market... and the hobbyist and Pro's will be moved to FX.

Here are a few 'DX' (APS-C) lenses Sony makes for its NEX system..

10-18mm f/4 (with optical stabilization)
16mm f/2.8
20mm f/2.8
24mm f/1.8
30mm f/3.5 Macro
35mm f/1.8 (with optical stabilization) 
50mm f/1.8 (with optical stabilization) 
16-70mm f/4 (with optical stabilization)
18-105mm f/4 (with optical stabilization)

How many of those lenses does Nikon have for DX?


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## TheLost (Aug 29, 2013)

Solarflare said:


> The D1000 is a DSLR. It is inspired by the Canon 100D. Nikon doesnt really look too hard at Sony/Pentax offerings. Usually. Because they arent really that relevant in the big picture. Canon offerings are.


Why should i buy a D1000 over the D3200 (or D3100 or D5100 or D5200)?  Cost? Features? Nikons DX lineup is confusing.. a lower-cost DX body will just add to the confusion. 



Solarflare said:


> And the Sony camera is pretty crappy ... no wonder, its (a) Sony (which means lack of good automatics etc) and (b) very, very cheap.


Again.. i suggest you have an open mind and take a good look at what other (non Nikon & Canon) companies have to offer (Fuji, Sony)..  im going here again... but take a look at Trey Ratcliff and tell me he's using a cheap camera for all his images (http://www.stuckincustoms.com)


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## Newtricks (Aug 29, 2013)

TheLost, the camera I bought before this D7000 was a Minolta Maxxum 7000i in 1990, the one before that was a Minolta X-700 in 1982. When I buy another camera it will be an Ebony SV57E and that will be the last one, I still fail to see how this post has any thing to do with the subject of this forum.

Be well,

Anthony


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## Derrel (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh, you want like-for-like examples to try and make a point? Here are some lenses Nikon has. 24,45,85mm tilt/shift. 40,60,85,105,200mm macro lenses. 300/4, 200 f/2, 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4, 600/4, 200-400 VR. 14-24mm f/2.8. Where are those lenses for Sony e-mount cameras? Where is Sony's D800, or D800e, or D4? Where is Sony's camera favored by Sports-Illustrated and National geographic shooters, and where are Sony's cameras for serious landscape and portrait shooters? Where is Sony's "wedding camera"? You know, the camera that has say, even *one-twentieth the number of pro wedding* shooters as say, the Canon 5D series has amassed? 

Yes, Sony makes a couple of really nice, small mirrorless cameras and has a handful of nifty tiny prime lenses for their E-mount. And yet, last year mirrorless camera sales declined apprx. 40% from the year before. Despite newer, better cameras and newer lenses...people world-wide are buying 40% FEWER mirrorless cameras.

Hyundai makes some nice cheap cars too, and yet I doubt they are a threat to the Ford F-150 pickup business, nor to the BMW, or Mercedes, or Lexus car business. 

Nikon does not WANT to be made into the next "*Dell Computer*", making cheap, lowest-price-possible, commodity crap. Sony and Panasonic can have the race to the bottom, where the cheapest, lowest-cost products devalue the brand, and kill the company. Sony is a consumer electronics and entertainment company that has not had a successful, market-leading product in years. Apple Computer is the exact opposite of Dell Computer. And the exact opposite of Sony Corp. Nikon is primarily a camera-making company. Each company must decide its own strategy, and Sony's is to try and stay in business and somehow manage to lose as few billion yen per year as it can weakly struggle not to lose... (laughs)

I remember a funny joke from The Big Bang Theory, where Sheldon says, "Wait until Microsoft comes out with their version of the MP3 player..." and intimates that the iPod will be crushed. Yeah...Sony is sort of like the Zune MP3 player from Microsoft.


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## sleist (Aug 29, 2013)

Zune ...

Now THAT's funny!   My daughter got one from someone (not me) for xmas ages ago.

Total Clusterf**k.

Even the name blows.


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## TheLost (Aug 29, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Oh, you want like-for-like examples to try and make a point? Here are some lenses Nikon has. 24,45,85mm tilt/shift. 40,60,85,105,200mm macro lenses. 300/4, 200 f/2, 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4, 600/4, 200-400 VR. 14-24mm f/2.8. Where are those lenses for Sony e-mount cameras? Where is Sony's D800, or D800e, or D4? Where is Sony's camera favored by Sports-Illustrated and National geographic shooters, and where are Sony's cameras for serious landscape and portrait shooters? Where is Sony's "wedding camera"? You know, the camera that has say, even *one-twentieth the number of pro wedding* shooters as say, the Canon 5D series has amassed?


Missing my point..  All of those lenses are FX.  They work with DX... but Nikon wants you to stick them on a D800.  



Derrel said:


> Yes, Sony makes a couple of really nice, small mirrorless cameras and has a handful of nifty tiny prime lenses for their E-mount. And yet, last year mirrorless camera sales declined apprx. 40% from the year before. Despite newer, better cameras and newer lenses...people world-wide are buying 40% FEWER mirrorless cameras.
> 
> Hyundai makes some nice cheap cars too, and yet I doubt they are a threat to the Ford F-150 pickup business, nor to the BMW, or Mercedes, or Lexus car business.


Missing my point again...  Nikon keeps cranking out lower end DSLR's and 1 series cameras.  While the market is tanking!  you don't think that's strange?  At the same time, they are not supporting the DX (or 1) market.  Sigma is.. 18-35MM F/1.8 DX lens, 50-150 f/2.8 DX lens.  Are you going to run out and buy Nikon's new $600 18-140mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S DX VR that was just announced?   Where is the DX version of the 24-120 f/4?  I've used that lens on my DX bodies... but a 18-100 f/4 would have been much-much better!



Derrel said:


> Nikon does not WANT to be made into the next "*Dell Computer*", making cheap, lowest-price-possible, commodity crap. Sony and Panasonic can have the race to the bottom, where the cheapest, lowest-cost products devalue the brand, and kill the company. Sony is a consumer electronics and entertainment company that has not had a successful, market-leading product in years. Apple Computer is the exact opposite of Dell Computer. And the exact opposite of Sony Corp. Nikon is primarily a camera-making company. Each company must decide its own strategy, and Sony's is to try and stay in business and somehow manage to lose as few billion yen per year as it can weakly struggle not to lose... (laughs)
> 
> I remember a funny joke from The Big Bang Theory, where Sheldon says, "Wait until Microsoft comes out with their version of the MP3 player..." and intimates that the iPod will be crushed. Yeah...Sony is sort of like the Zune MP3 player from Microsoft.


Missing my point...  Nikon IS TURNING INTO DELL by announcing yet another low-low end DSLR (D1000 or whatever they'll call it).   Apple gives you an exact upgrade path for all their products..  Nikons product lineup says "start with DX because its cheap... but in the end you'll have to sell all your DX lenses.. or you could buy 3rd party lenses...  or maybe just don't buy DX lenses and only get FX lenses..  you know, you should probably just get a D600...  but have you seen our new $300 DSLR yet!?!"


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## TheLost (Aug 30, 2013)

I'll end with this tidbit...
Rumor: Nikon preparing to announce new D5300 and D610 DSLR cameras | Nikon Rumors



> but such announcement will be within the new company strategy to concentrate on entry level DSLR models. Read more on NikonRumors.com: http://nikonrumors.com/2013/08/29/r...300-and-d610-dslr-cameras.aspx/#ixzz2dTqnlxdT


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## pixmedic (Aug 30, 2013)

TheLost said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see DX as stagnating. well, maybe Canon's DX line, but not Nikon's.
> ...



quite a few nikon DX lenses. 
*Lenses for Nikon DX format*



10.5 mm _f_/2.8G ED AF DX Fisheye 
35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX NIKKOR 
40 mm _f_/2.8G DX Micro-Nikkor 
10&#8211;24 mm _f_/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX 
12&#8211;24 mm _f_/4G ED-IF AF-S DX 
17&#8211;55 mm _f_/2.8G ED-IF AF-S DX[SUP][2][/SUP] 
18&#8211;55mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S DX 
18&#8211;55mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S II DX 
18-70 mm _f_/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX 
18&#8211;135 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX 
55-200 mm _f_/4-5.6G ED AF-S DX 
 *Vibration reduction (VR) lenses in DX format*



16&#8211;85 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX 
18&#8211;55 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G AF-S VR DX 
18-105 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR DX 
18-140 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR DX 
18-200 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR DX 
18-200 mm _f_/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR II DX 
55-200 mm _f_/4-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX 
55&#8211;300 mm _f_/4-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX 
85mm _f_/3.5 micro ED AF-S VR DX 
18&#8211;300 mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR II DX 

of course, that is only nikons offerings and does not include any  Tamron or Sigma DX lenses. 
im not saying that nikon is producing pro DX glass or bodies. never said anything of the sort. 
what i DID say, was that Nikon (and canon) appear to have no designs on stopping production on DX cameras or lenses. 
again, I think you will find their DX revenue MUCH higher than their FX revenue. 
the Nikon 1 and canon eos M mirrorless cameras are a joke. neither of the biggest two camera companies managed to put a good mirrorless.
which leads ME to believe that they are only catering to a smaller niche market of people that want a "pocket camera" to compliment their DSLR, and not to people that are looking to replace their DSLR with a mirrorless system. I could be wrong though. but in all reality, all of this discussion is mostly speculation and opinion anyway.


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## TheLost (Aug 30, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> quite a few nikon DX lenses.
> *Lenses for Nikon DX format*
> 
> 
> ...



Ok..  so we have:
10 (ten) 18-xx DX lenses.. all are variable aperture..  All are considered 'Kit' lenses. 
2 (two) fixed aperture zooms.
4 (four) primes.

Don't you see a bunch of redundancy? The lenses you want are FX... admit it! 



pixmedic said:


> the Nikon 1 and canon eos M mirrorless cameras are a joke. neither of the biggest two camera companies managed to put a good mirrorless.
> which leads ME to believe that they are only catering to a smaller niche market of people that want a "pocket camera" to compliment their DSLR, and not to people that are looking to replace their DSLR with a mirrorless system. I could be wrong though. but in all reality, all of this discussion is mostly speculation and opinion anyway.



I disagree.. The Nikon 1 has HUGE potential.  The sensor is made by a company called Aptina and there is HUGE buzz surrounding their sensors.. They just release a new 14mp sensor that can do 60 FPS stills and shoot 4k video at 60fps.  It's mirrorless 'bigotry' and Nikons marketing that makes it a joke.


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## pixmedic (Aug 30, 2013)

TheLost said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > quite a few nikon DX lenses.
> ...



my problem with the nikon 1 system is you only have two choices. pop up flash, or nikons proprietary flash and no popup. 
I am looking into mirrorless right now for just out and about shooting, and Nikon is off my list since they don't offer a mirrorless with a standard hot shoe mount. 
how is it "bigotry" to not want a system because it lacks a key component that I want in my camera? any mirrorless camera that lacks a standard hot shoe mount gets crossed off my list, along with ones that have smaller than an aps-c or m4/3 sensor. 
sure, it HAS potential. as soon as Nikon puts a standard hot shoe on it, as far as im concerned.


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## epatsellis (Aug 31, 2013)

IMO Nikon's biggest weakness is the body lineup, i.e. no logical "pro" body lineup. Some of us don't need 36Mp cameras, FF or otherwise. If I need high resolution, I have a scan back or a digital back for the Hassy. For my needs, a pro level 12-16Mp DX body that uses a CF card, good high ISO and 8 or so fps would be perfect. Talking to other working pros, I know I'm not alone, there's an awful lot of D7000's being used where D2x, Fuji S5 and the like were once used. 

Personally, if the D2x was updated with a "modern" sensor and electronics, I'd buy one...Brand New even...
(the last brand new camera I bought was a dozen F3/MD4's within the first year they came out, been a while)

The only reason I recently added a D3 to the stable was the high ISO performance, I still use all of my other bodies, (several IR or full spectrum D100s, D1x, 2Hs, 2X, a Fuji S2, S5 and a Kodak SLR/n) regularly as they all have their strengths. The down side is having to get a 500 f4p to get the same field of view I have with the 300 2.8 now. (but in good light, the 500/TC16A combo is amazingly good for very few $$$ so it's a win/win)


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