# I've been here a while and still don't get it.



## zombiesniper (Oct 13, 2020)

Why do people feel the need to start argumentative threads such as "X type of sensor is better for Y photography" or "This kind of camera can't shoot X".

1. It's narrow minded and shows that the OP needs to learn more. 
Do various sensor sized have certain benefits? Yes. Does that mean they are the best at a form of photography? NO!! They may have one attribute that leads itself to a particular form but that in itself won't make it the best.

2. It also shows that the OP usually only started a thread for a fight and not a civil discussion. Look back at all of the VERY defensive OP's in these threads.

3. If your mind is made up and you don't want others opinions or facts that may be to the contrary. Keep the though in your head and be happy.

It just seems to me some people can't be happy without a fight. Just don't get it.


----------



## SquarePeg (Oct 13, 2020)

Boredom?


----------



## Space Face (Oct 13, 2020)

I always insist the best bit of kit is that which you currently have with you

As for arguments, it's the internet.  Never take it too seriously.  It's like TV, if it hacks you off that much, turn it off.


----------



## terri (Oct 13, 2020)

Hopefully this very thread won't spark defensive discussion that devolves into a fight.


----------



## Rickbb (Oct 13, 2020)

Some people are just that way argue for the sake of arguing. Life is too short to worry over it. When I see a thread, (here or any of the other forums I visit), headed down that path, I just do a virtual walk away. Never open that thread again. End of problem, mine anyway, can't fix theirs.


----------



## waday (Oct 13, 2020)

My opinion (feel free to disagree with me): 

I’ve seen a lot of similarities between those types of threads and what happens (or at least happened for a while) in the m43 community. It seems like they’re started as a justification for their own equipment purchases and/or needs, as well as a need to prove it publicly to the world. (I don’t mean any offense to the m43 community; I am a m43 user myself.) I am excluding the threads that truly are a technical discussion.

In the m43 community, for the longest time people got hung up on sensor size. You couldn’t go to any comment section of any m43 article or any m43 forums without people saying things like:

It’s not the size of the sensor, it’s what you can do with it,
m43 is cheaper/smaller/lighter,
Look! My photos using m43 look as good as full frame!
Look! I have bokeh, too!
Etc.
Granted, some of those threads are started because someone in the FF community makes comments against the m43 community.

Anyways, some reasons might be different, or more technical, but I’m just going by what I tend to see (especially from a recent thread) from a completely unbiased and non-technical user. It may be a justification to oneself and a need to prove it publicly.

In technical discussions....... If it were truly a technical discussion without any personal involvement, I don’t understand why people get so upset (except in situations where communication breaks down). Why not provide additional information, show references, show your calculations, show your work? Try to test the theory?


----------



## zombiesniper (Oct 13, 2020)

terri said:


> Hopefully this very thread won't spark defensive discussion that devolves into a fight.



I thought this would be a zombie thread due to people being afraid of this.


----------



## waday (Oct 13, 2020)

zombiesniper said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully this very thread won't spark defensive discussion that devolves into a fight.
> ...


It is a zombie thread?


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Oct 13, 2020)

I get that some people are passionate about equipment, although I don't get too hung up about brands or sensor sizes myself, but what mystifies me are the Newbies who join, post a very specific query, then never come back to see the replies and never post again.

We had one query about writing a dissertation, lots of members took the time to make valuable replies, but the OP never replied.  We've had other highly specific queries about equipment or photography styles, some with screenshots of cameras for sale, some with queries about lighting or glamour photography ..... never seen again.

Is it a very esoteric way of trolling?

It's made me wary of responding to any queries from new members.


----------



## Space Face (Oct 13, 2020)

Tropicalmemories said:


> I get that some people are passionate about equipment, although I don't get too hung up about brands or sensor sizes myself, but what mystifies me are the Newbies who join, post a very specific query, then never come back to see the replies and never post again.
> 
> We had one query about writing a dissertation, lots of members took the time to make valuable replies, but the OP never replied.  We've had other highly specific queries about equipment or photography styles, some with screenshots of cameras for sale, some with queries about lighting or glamour photography ..... never seen again.
> 
> ...




100% agree.  I run another non photography forum and if I get 'snoopers' like this and they don't respond to a request to partake, I get rid of them.  Maybe not so easily done on a bigger Forum like this.


----------



## jcdeboever (Oct 13, 2020)

The camera is a tool, no matter if it's a bridge, APC, Full frame, medium format, etc. I personally have been very happy with my film camera so much that I rarely shoot digital for my personal stuff. I like not being able to preview the image and let the chips fall where they may. My keeper rate is way up as of late and I find the look of film very pleasing. Selling 90% of gear has been liberating to say the least. I have even cut way down on the amount of images taken using digital. I like that I hardly ever need to edit the film shots. I like to previsualize, look at the frame edges, compose, focus, and shoot. I had so much gear and the quantity did not make me a better photographer. I have a GFX50R and it doesn't make me a better photographer. I post less than 1% of the images I take, I don't need likes. I need to improve and that is my focus. Gear is a waste of my time these days. My favorite camera is the Holga, my most used is a Nikon F2 with no meter.


----------



## waday (Oct 13, 2020)

jcdeboever said:


> The camera is a tool, no matter if it's a bridge, APC, Full frame, medium format, etc. I personally have been very happy with my film camera so much that I rarely shoot digital for my personal stuff. I like not being able to preview the image and let the chips fall where they may. My keeper rate is way up as of late and I find the look of film very pleasing. Selling 90% of gear has been liberating to say the least. I have even cut way down on the amount of images taken using digital. I like that I hardly ever need to edit the film shots. I like to previsualize, look at the frame edges, compose, focus, and shoot. I had so much gear and the quantity did not make me a better photographer. I have a GFX50R and it doesn't make me a better photographer. I post less than 1% of the images I take, I don't need likes. I need to improve and that is my focus. Gear is a waste of my time these days. My favorite camera is the Holga, my most used is a Nikon F2 with no meter.


So, I know what you’re getting at and that a camera is just a tool and all, but...

GFX50R?


----------



## waday (Oct 13, 2020)

Tropicalmemories said:


> then never come back to see the replies and never post again


I think some people have been so used to getting replies in some manner that, if they don’t mark off getting emails when someone replies, they actually forget that they posted because they don’t check back manually. I feel like I’ve seen it a few times and in one thread I just saw today. If the question seemed honest, I try to treat it as that.


----------



## charlie76 (Oct 13, 2020)

Isn’t that what this thread is??? LOL


----------



## Space Face (Oct 13, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> Isn’t that what this thread is??? LOL



No!


----------



## jcdeboever (Oct 13, 2020)

waday said:


> jcdeboever said:
> 
> 
> > The camera is a tool, no matter if it's a bridge, APC, Full frame, medium format, etc. I personally have been very happy with my film camera so much that I rarely shoot digital for my personal stuff. I like not being able to preview the image and let the chips fall where they may. My keeper rate is way up as of late and I find the look of film very pleasing. Selling 90% of gear has been liberating to say the least. I have even cut way down on the amount of images taken using digital. I like that I hardly ever need to edit the film shots. I like to previsualize, look at the frame edges, compose, focus, and shoot. I had so much gear and the quantity did not make me a better photographer. I have a GFX50R and it doesn't make me a better photographer. I post less than 1% of the images I take, I don't need likes. I need to improve and that is my focus. Gear is a waste of my time these days. My favorite camera is the Holga, my most used is a Nikon F2 with no meter.
> ...


Yes, I bought it for product photography and it works great for that.


----------



## snowbear (Oct 13, 2020)

Maybe it's because some people will argue and stir up (stuff) because they can, and the relative anonymity of the Internet allows them to do so more often, probably making them feel like they have some kind of power, or making themselves feel a little less miserable by getting others all worked up.


----------



## dxqcanada (Oct 13, 2020)

As @snowbear stated ... 
Hmm, if we were all sitting in the same room having a discussion about photography ... how many of these questions would be brought up.


----------



## limr (Oct 13, 2020)

snowbear said:


> Maybe it's because some people will argue and stir up (stuff) because they can, and the relative anonymity of the Internet allows them to do so more often, probably making them feel like they have some kind of power, or making themselves feel a little less miserable by getting others all worked up.





Rickbb said:


> Some people are just that way argue for the sake of arguing. Life is too short to worry over it. When I see a thread, (here or any of the other forums I visit), headed down that path, I just do a virtual walk away. Never open that thread again. End of problem, mine anyway, can't fix theirs.



Yes, and yes. This kind of thread is often opened to get attention. So it's best to do that 'virtual walkaway' and not give them the attention and trouble that they're looking for.


----------



## zombiesniper (Oct 14, 2020)

charlie76 said:


> Isn’t that what this thread is??? LOL


Not my intent but you can view it anyway you like.



dxqcanada said:


> As @snowbear stated ...
> Hmm, if we were all sitting in the same room having a discussion about photography ... how many of these questions would be brought up.



With the group I hang with it would come up but more of a "Dam! Can't believe you still use "X" and manage to get anything worth keeping!" or that type of ribbing. Nothing ever serious.


----------



## RowdyRay (Oct 14, 2020)

Rickbb said:


> Some people are just that way argue for the sake of arguing. Life is too short to worry over it. When I see a thread, (here or any of the other forums I visit), headed down that path, I just do a virtual walk away. Never open that thread again. End of problem, mine anyway, can't fix theirs.



My late brother would do just that. Argue for the sake of arguing. Did it many times. Left me shaking my head and most of my friends not wanting to talk to him again. He finally admitted it. After a friend was seconds away from pummeling him. It got that heated. 

He thought it was funny. I didn't. Asked why, he just shrugged his shoulders. He wasn't filming a Youtube video or anything like that. That, would at least make sense to most of us. Some people are just that way, I guess. We'll never know the real reason why because, he's no longer with us.


----------



## Dean_Gretsch (Oct 15, 2020)

There are just some people that insist on imposing their pov on everyone else. For whatever reason ( narcissism springs to the front ), I think they just like drama and want to see how many others they can get to agree with their own thoughts.


----------



## SquarePeg (Oct 15, 2020)

RowdyRay said:


> Rickbb said:
> 
> 
> > Some people are just that way argue for the sake of arguing. Life is too short to worry over it. When I see a thread, (here or any of the other forums I visit), headed down that path, I just do a virtual walk away. Never open that thread again. End of problem, mine anyway, can't fix theirs.
> ...



My youngest brother does this.  I’ve always said he amuses himself by annoying others - with arguments that he sometimes doesn’t even truly support.  Playing “devil’s advocate “ or however he wants to justify it.  I’m sure I’m not the only one who has him on their “no unnecessary conversations “list.


----------



## Strodav (Oct 15, 2020)

zombiesniper said:


> Why do people feel the need to start argumentative threads such as "X type of sensor is better for Y photography" or "This kind of camera can't shoot X".
> 
> 1. It's narrow minded and shows that the OP needs to learn more.
> Do various sensor sized have certain benefits? Yes. Does that mean they are the best at a form of photography? NO!! They may have one attribute that leads itself to a particular form but that in itself won't make it the best.
> ...



Welcome to the internet where you are seeing true human nature as there are no consequences to mean, vile, idiotic, or ignorant behavior.  I first saw this when learning how to drive many, many years ago where you could see mild mannered people in person turn into evil and reckless idiots behind the wheel.  I am not a psychologist, but think people behave like this because they hate their own lives.  The fact that this kind of stuff bothers you probably puts you in the good person category.


----------



## terri (Oct 15, 2020)

Strodav said:


> Welcome to the internet where you are seeing true human nature as there are no consequences to mean, vile, idiotic, or ignorant behavior


I beg to differ.


----------



## zombiesniper (Oct 15, 2020)

Strodav said:


> Welcome to the internet where you are seeing true human nature as there are no consequences to mean, vile, idiotic, or ignorant behavior. I first saw this when learning how to drive many, many years ago where you could see mild mannered people in person turn into evil and reckless idiots behind the wheel. I am not a psychologist, but think people behave like this because they hate their own lives. The fact that this kind of stuff bothers you probably puts you in the good person category.



I agree there is a lot of that out there but this type of thread is more specific and doesn't begin as a no consequence type of situation. It almost seems like what was posted earlier, that some people need to justify why or what they have or do. It's like they seem to think they have something to prove. I find it curious because they're trying to prove their worth to a bunch of people that wouldn't notice they were hit by a bus tomorrow.

A lot of time and energy has been wasted by many users on here trying this type of behaviour and they all have one thing in common. I can't remember any of them.

P.S. I'm nicer on the internet than I am in person.


----------



## mrca (Oct 16, 2020)

These forums are heavily populated with collectors not photographers.  On some sites, they post more photos of their camera and BOXES,  than actual photos.  I think most of those statements have to do with gear or tech issues than actual images.


----------



## Tropicalmemories (Oct 16, 2020)

mrca said:


> These forums are heavily populated with collectors not photographers.  On some sites, they post more photos of their camera and BOXES,  than actual photos.  I think most of those statements have to do with gear or tech issues than actual images.



Ah yes, I never understood the photos of the boxes the new lens came in that appear on some one-make photo forums.  There's also videos of 'unboxing'.

Got a new piece of kit - go out and use it, then tell us what you think.


----------



## C. M (Oct 16, 2020)

Tropicalmemories said:


> mrca said:
> 
> 
> > These forums are heavily populated with collectors not photographers.  On some sites, they post more photos of their camera and BOXES,  than actual photos.  I think most of those statements have to do with gear or tech issues than actual images.
> ...



You have it all wrong. Its all about the self image of the gear and photographer. NOT about what the equipment, OR photographer can do with equipment... 

Its like this.  Look at the photos shown on teh LOMO news magazine webpage. Of people THEY think are great and wonderful photographers due to these people espousing the philosophy of "lomography'...

Those photos, those great examples of lomography, are blurry crap that are out of focus that they could be a photo of a rabbit running on a tread mill, or the star ship enterprise in a snow storm. DEFECTS in those great photos,,,, are things that actual photographers leave on the cutting room floor and strive to avoid...


----------



## limr (Oct 17, 2020)

C. M said:


> Tropicalmemories said:
> 
> 
> > mrca said:
> ...



And they would say the same about the preoccupation with shots being tack sharp from corner to corner, or the smoooooth water, or the saturated predictable landscapes.

To each their own. That's the point. Why be preoccupied with trying to prove you're (general 'you') right about gear or photographic tastes or who's a 'real' photographer.


----------



## JBPhotog (Oct 17, 2020)

I am not a psychologist or even play one on tv, but life has taught me that humans are pack animals. Our entire society is based on acceptance and conformity, it gives us a sense of belonging and being understood by our fellow humans.

Unfortunately, the genre of photography and the gear a person uses is so varied it is nearly impossible to find consensus or conformity. As a result our desire to proclaim our opinion on gear, posing, lighting etc. is disguised as looking for acceptance not only from ourselves but from those who we believe have knowledge and wish to be associated with. At times greater experience can lead to better choices, this too is intertwined in much of the commentary.

I don’t always succeed but trying to type as I would speak face to face to a person is a good practise when it comes to sharing opinions on the interweb.


----------



## terri (Oct 17, 2020)

I completely agree - to each his own.   Who gives a crap?  

If everyone shot the same subject, using the same format, it would be a pretty boring old world.


----------



## Strodav (Oct 17, 2020)

JBPhotog said:


> I am not a psychologist or even play one on tv, but life has taught me that humans are pack animals. Our entire society is based on acceptance and conformity, it gives us a sense of belonging and being understood by our fellow humans.
> 
> Unfortunately, the genre of photography and the gear a person uses is so varied it is nearly impossible to find consensus or conformity. As a result our desire to proclaim our opinion on gear, posing, lighting etc. is disguised as looking for acceptance not only from ourselves but from those who we believe have knowledge and wish to be associated with. At times greater experience can lead to better choices, this too is intertwined in much of the commentary.
> 
> I don’t always succeed but trying to type as I would speak face to face to a person is a good practise when it comes to sharing opinions on the interweb.



Lord of the flies scenerio?


----------



## mrca (Oct 19, 2020)

I agree to each his own, but when someone proclaims their gear is  the only gear,  like the op said, I first wonder if it was intended to trigger an argument.  I don't care who is a "real photographer" or what they shoot, but I don't need to see another photo of someones camera, lens or box, especially if I have one and have seen 50 other such photos.  We have seen all the cliches, like blurred water, hdr/oversaturation, tilting come and go and some come back again.    Many of us who have spend decades learning the craft get a tad irritated by folks that don't know what they don't know  lecturing to us with erroneous information.    I have learned not to waste my time, hey, I hope they are my competitors!    How does that wrestling with a pig adage go?   You get muddy and the pig enjoys it.


----------



## gmcase (Oct 20, 2020)

As long as there are fenceposts there will be arguments.


----------



## Soocom1 (Oct 20, 2020)

Im right your wrong, deal with it!


----------



## cgw (Oct 22, 2020)

So much dust raised by those stampeding herds of independent minds...<cough> <choke>


----------



## smoke665 (Oct 22, 2020)

In the words of Mark Twain

_"Oh, dear, we are all like that. Each of us knows it all, and knows he knows it all--the rest, to a man, are fools and deluded. One man knows there is a hell, the next one knows there isn't; one man knows high tariff is right, the next man knows it isn't; one man knows monarchy is best, the next one knows it isn't; one age knows there are witches, the next one knows there aren't; one sect knows its religion is the only true one, there are sixty-four thousand five hundred million sects that know it isn't so. There is not a mind present among this multitude of verdict-deliverers that is the superior of the minds that persuade and represent the rest of the divisions of the multitude. Yet this sarcastic fact does not humble the arrogance nor diminish the know-it-all bulk of a single verdict-maker of the lot, by so much as a shade. Mind is plainly an ass, but it will be many ages before it finds it out, no doubt. Why do we respect the opinions of any man or any microbe that ever lived? I swear  don't know. Why do I respect my own? Well--that is different." 
- "Three Thousand Years among the Microbes"_


----------



## SquarePeg (Oct 22, 2020)

Like he’s read Mark Twain.


----------



## smoke665 (Oct 22, 2020)

SquarePeg said:


> Like he’s read Mark Twain.



Really??? Is there some reason for the snarky comment, as if you know anything about me or my background? Another quote attributed to Twain which I have a fondness for - "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please".


----------



## SquarePeg (Oct 22, 2020)

Sorry, was meant to be funny/sarcastic humor but I can see how it came across as snarky.  You want me to delete it I will.


----------



## smoke665 (Oct 22, 2020)

SquarePeg said:


> Sorry, was meant to be funny/sarcastic humor but I can see how it came across as snarky.  You want me to delete it I will.



I think you cleared it up sufficiently, I appreciate the followup, no hard feelings on my part.


----------



## zombiesniper (Nov 2, 2020)

Little Jonny or Suzie should be happy with what they have and learn to use it to the best of their ability.

It's a lame argument that the feeling of inadequacy is a valid excuse for trolling a forum. If someone is that insecure, they should definitely stay off of the internet and away from me. I'm no where near as nice in person.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Nov 23, 2020)

I have mentioned before that above a certain quality/cost level, the differences are often nuances. The simple feel or operational features, will cause one person to call it an overprice piece of junk while another signs the praises of the same model.


----------



## flyingPhoto (May 30, 2021)

Most of it seems to be an attempt to make themselves feel better about purchasing a 6$k camera body or lens when they would have been served just as well by something costing under a 1$k. 

At same time it also serves on many internet user groups as a means of controlling and denying access to the user group boards by people who dont have that equipment. 
  IE  if only the "self proclaimed professionals are using x piece of gear" then anyone who DOESNT have that piece of kit is considered an amateur or pervert with a camera and is easily kept on the sidelines when they disagree with the "important people on the user group forum boards"


----------



## Grandpa Ron (May 30, 2021)

Boy, you folks are way overthinking this.

Some folks delight in the latest and most expensive highest precision gear. The spend their creative juices taking and post-processing excellent art work. Others like myself, delight is tweaking out the most from a 1915 Seneca view camera. Sure, I own a nice digital camera and a set of lenses but to me it is more fun to diddle. Neither approach is right or wrong just a different forms of entertainment.

As humans we may be pack animals but most of the folks I know are highly individualist, only conforming to the pack when necessary for economic or safety reasons; and perhaps to keep out of jail. Most of them could careless what folks think of their hobbies. 

Always remember that, no matter how passionate and involved you are in a subject; unless you depend on it as part of your livelihood... it is only a hobby.


----------



## Original katomi (May 30, 2021)

I could not do photography as a living, it would spoil it for me. My style is .....different... if I had to conform to rules and time slots/deadlines ....pressure to do what others want.....
 no not for me.


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 1, 2021)

There is a general sense about sensors that "bigger is better". I don't believe it anymore. I don't know. Maybe my opinion is influenced by my last purchase. The Nikon Coolpix P1000. It's an example of a camera where the small sensor turns to advantage cause provides you a crop factor of ~5x which comes to a final optical zoom of 125x. This fact opens up - to my opinion - a whole new world of photographic opportunities since you can bring - in breath distance to you - many subjects otherwise unreachable. Of course it comes to a price,in terms of image quality. It depends what kind of quality is adequate to you. I find the level good. But that's just me.

Now let's leave aside a certain camera. Let's talk about light efficiency. With a camera with a sensor smaller than a full frame you can achieve results close to a full frame camera - or even the same! It depends of course of how much smaller is the sensor from the full frame competitor. You just need longer exposure time. Buy a tripod for night shooting and stabilize your camera upon it. Then leave the shutter open more time than you would if you had it handheld. That's an example for good results with a smaller than full frame sensor.

Then there is AI in the sector of smartphones especially. It makes rapid progress and in some cases you can have results comparable to the ones of much bigger sensors. I have a lot of respect to the Xiaomi M11 ultra 1" sensor, although I don't have this phone. Together with good AI you see very good sample photos.

And last but not least it does matter how big you want your printings! Perhaps the standard size is okay for you. You don't have to purchase an enormous sensor at this case! Or you maybe are fine with printings till the next size. You are okay as well. It always depends from your demands. 

Finally I have uploaded two photos which make my point. The first one I call it the "ghost" photo. It was taken a long time ago with an APS-C camera which I let on a table for a long time to gather light in a dark room. And the second is from the aforementioned p1000. It couldn't be so detailed if it didn't have that little sensor.


----------



## flyingPhoto (Jun 1, 2021)

the 


jonnybaz said:


> There is a general sense about sensors that "bigger is better". I don't believe it anymore. I don't know. Maybe my opinion is influenced by my last purchase. The Nikon Coolpix P1000. It's an example of a camera where the small sensor turns to advantage cause provides you a crop factor of ~5x which comes to a final optical zoom of 125x. This fact opens up - to my opinion - a whole new world of photographic opportunities since you can bring - in breath distance to you - many subjects otherwise unreachable. Of course it comes to a price,in terms of image quality. It depends what kind of quality is adequate to you. I find the level good. But that's just me.
> 
> Now let's leave aside a certain camera. Let's talk about light efficiency. With a camera with a sensor smaller than a full frame you can achieve results close to a full frame camera - or even the same! It depends of course of how much smaller is the sensor from the full frame competitor. You just need longer exposure time. Buy a tripod for night shooting and stabilize your camera upon it. Then leave the shutter open more time than you would if you had it handheld. That's an example for good results with a smaller than full frame sensor.
> 
> ...


moon photo is ok at small size. Enlarge it and it SUCKS..... no offense but massive distortion.

Yeah you might have the "magnification" created by tiny sensor size in that bridge camera, but i have sensor QUALITY.   Ever noticed that on your camera, when you take a shot with it on auto, it looks alright, but if you switch to manual and ptu the same setting in, the image is total crap/


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Jun 1, 2021)

I will admit my bias for simply using a photo "as shot" puts me in the minority. You get what you see with little or no post processing. This is probably because I worry less about the image quality and more about capturing the "content".   Plus, I find digital manipulation boring.

However, based on the images produced by some of my photographic club members and some recent photography books at my local library, the real digital magic happens in post processing. I have seen some very good post processed photos, and the people producing them deserve a lot of credit.

Concerning the OP's comments of camera X being better that camera Y.  Yes, the better the image captured by the camera, the easier the digital manipulation to get the image you like.   But once you have entered the world of "RAW" digital processing ... I suspect your post processing abilities, out weight the slight differences in hardware.


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 1, 2021)

flyingPhoto said:


> the
> 
> moon photo is ok at small size. Enlarge it and it SUCKS..... no offense but massive distortion.
> 
> Yeah you might have the "magnification" created by tiny sensor size in that bridge camera, but i have sensor QUALITY.   Ever noticed that on your camera, when you take a shot with it on auto, it looks alright, but if you switch to manual and ptu the same setting in, the image is total crap/


Okay mate. I'll pass the language and with honesty and good temperament I will answer you. Believe me the zoom of the camera is more than okay. Don't forget; you saw a thumbnail of a moonshot. With the maximum of the optical zoom (125x), handheld. Now I'll attach a snapshot of the same photo, enlarged to the screen of my smartphone so that you can distinguish the details on the surface of the moon such as the Copernicus crater and other craters near the edge. To be honest it's not the entire photo! Just a part of it. Because - although I wanted to include it - it was impossible because of my smartphone's screen size. I understand that a larger sensor gives you better quality. But - even with smaller one's - you can have a very good quality and I can send you more shots to make you understand that. I don't claim that you did a bad choice if you have chose a full frame or any other camera with a bigger sensor than mine. It all comes down to what you want to achieve.
P.S The language on the screen from the snapshot is Greek. Cheers!


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 2, 2021)

flyingPhoto said:


> the
> 
> moon photo is ok at small size. Enlarge it and it SUCKS..... no offense but massive distortion.
> 
> Yeah you might have the "magnification" created by tiny sensor size in that bridge camera, but i have sensor QUALITY.   Ever noticed that on your camera, when you take a shot with it on auto, it looks alright, but if you switch to manual and ptu the same setting in, the image is total crap/


Although I have already responded I want to add something I missed to my previous answer. I was wrong. The optical zoom you are seeing at my first thumbnail is not the total zoom (125x). I attach another moonshot where I use the total optical zoom of the camera. ISO100,539mm,f8.0, shutter speed 1/60.


----------



## petrochemist (Jun 2, 2021)

I feel much the same about any thread about what's best. The question is usually left completely open rather than what's best for a very specific role.  We get if for hardware, apertures, ISO, etc.
If one value was really best for everything why would manufacturers give the options to change that value?


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 2, 2021)

petrochemist said:


> I feel much the same about any thread about what's best. The question is usually left completely open rather than what's best for a very specific role.  We get if for hardware, apertures, ISO, etc.
> If one value was really best for everything why would manufacturers give the options to change that value?


That's the point. There are different cameras for different photographers. For example I wouldn't judge someone that purchases an underwater camera. It has not the biggest sensor of the market but it permits you to take unique shots.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Jun 2, 2021)

Again, keep in mind that with digital pictures, the end product is the results of the numerous, nameless, photo processing guru's that write the algorithms for the processing of the sensor images, including the downloading, post processing and uploading to the web or your monitor.


----------



## BrentC (Jun 2, 2021)

I have long since learned to ignore posts from camera snobs about sensor size and other camera related threads that argue fullframe vs everything else.   It's all BS.  They all take great quality pictures and they all have their pros and cons and there is enough out there to fit everyones needs.   It's one reason I avoid sites like DPReview.  Let me share two experiences I had that showed me there are just as many snobs and assholes just like every other hobby or profession.

Not long after buying my first camera, an Olympus EM5 MKII, I decided to join our local photography club.   I was standing around a group of five people, introducing myself.   I was asked what camera I am using.  Once I told them I got smirks from two of them and another said I couldn't possibly do any wildlife photography with it.  One of those that smirked at me and the one that said I couldn't do wildlife left and joined another group of people to talk to.  The one who said I couldn't use my camera for wildlife uses a Nikon D500.  I looked at his flickr later and saw that his wildlife photos were not that great at all.  I would even say most were worse than what I produced even at my start.
Suffice it to say I never returned, it was so off putting being dismissed like that.

Another time I was at a popular pond area for photographers.  There were a lot of photographers that day photographing Wood Ducks flying in and out and other smaller birds.   There wasn't much room and there was about 20+ photographers there.   I had a good spot that I just got.  Then I guy came up to me and asked me to move and let him take my spot.  His reasoning was that my camera would not be able to capture the birds at that distance and I shouldn't waste my time.  Proceeded to explain to me if I really wanted to do wildlife photos I would need a DSLR with a long lens.   I shut him up after explaining that I had more reach with my setup than he did.  He just walked away without saying a word.  

With some bad experiences and stupidly getting involved in some threads I decided I had enough and refuse to get involved in these types of discussions anymore.   I don't even try recommending anything to those that ask.  I am glad there isn't a lot of this happening on this forum.


----------



## mrca (Jun 2, 2021)

One of the reason I shoot mf 67 film is the huge negative gives incredibly smooth tonal transitions.  42 square mm compared to 8.6 in a 35 mm.  Sorry, a FF digital won't and most digital  "MF" is a crop compared to this size.   Size does matter.  As for editing,  hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough for 20 years?


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 2, 2021)

BrentC said:


> I have long since learned to ignore posts from camera snobs about sensor size and other camera related threads that argue fullframe vs everything else.   It's all BS.  They all take great quality pictures and they all have their pros and cons and there is enough out there to fit everyones needs.   It's one reason I avoid sites like DPReview.  Let me share two experiences I had that showed me there are just as many snobs and assholes just like every other hobby or profession.
> 
> Not long after buying my first camera, an Olympus EM5 MKII, I decided to join our local photography club.   I was standing around a group of five people, introducing myself.   I was asked what camera I am using.  Once I told them I got smirks from two of them and another said I couldn't possibly do any wildlife photography with it.  One of those that smirked at me and the one that said I couldn't do wildlife left and joined another group of people to talk to.  The one who said I couldn't use my camera for wildlife uses a Nikon D500.  I looked at his flickr later and saw that his wildlife photos were not that great at all.  I would even say most were worse than what I produced even at my start.
> Suffice it to say I never returned, it was so off putting being dismissed like that.
> ...


You have a very good camera. If you use an appropriate lens to keep a good distance from the animals not to scare them, you are okay.


----------



## mrca (Jun 2, 2021)

Jonny, I'm not sure why you   say comments re sensor size are BS, but taking "quality" pictures and getting the absolute best capture  are not necessarily the same thing.  Believe me, I know having won and judged professional competitions.  A larger sensor simply gives more area for incredibly smooth tonal transitions.  If you have facts to dispute my comments on the benefits of large sensor/film size,  I am open to them.   Yes, like in the over all public, there are jerks out there with cameras.  Some that don't have a clue and don't know what they don't know or are just camera collectors who NEVER show their photos, unless it is a photo of their gear.  And learn to recognize a collector vs an actual photographer.  I always point out that  my most awarded photo was taken with a 10 mp camera with one of nikons 10 worst lenses.   So I tell folks, NEVER let anyone diss you because of your gear.    In my case it was an on field  NFL photographer who when he saw my photo come up, jumped out of his chair and wanting to know who made this image and how it was done.    When my name was called for best in class and him awarding me the speakers award and I stood up, his jaw hit the floor.  Priceless.  This is called photo graphy, not camera graphy.


----------



## Grandpa Ron (Jun 2, 2021)

Brent that was rather rude of the fellow. I am afraid that an old guy like me would tell someone who criticized my gear, "If I wanted cheap, I would have bought what you have." But hey, I already know  I am old and opinionated.   

Equipment does not a good photograph make.


----------



## BrentC (Jun 2, 2021)

mrca said:


> Jonny, I'm not sure why you   say comments re sensor size are BS, but taking "quality" pictures and getting the absolute best capture  are not necessarily the same thing.  Believe me, I know having won and judged professional competitions.  A larger sensor simply gives more area for incredibly smooth tonal transitions.  If you have facts to dispute my comments on the benefits of large sensor/film size,  I am open to them.   Yes, like in the over all public, there are jerks out there with cameras.  Some that don't have a clue and don't know what they don't know or are just camera collectors who NEVER show their photos, unless it is a photo of their gear.  And learn to recognize a collector vs an actual photographer.  I always point out that  my most awarded photo was taken with a 10 mp camera with one of nikons 10 worst lenses.   So I tell folks, NEVER let anyone diss you because of your gear.    In my case it was an on field  NFL photographer who when he saw my photo come up, jumped out of his chair and wanting to know who made this image and how it was done.    When my name was called for best in class and him awarding me the speakers award and I stood up, his jaw hit the floor.  Priceless.  This is called photo graphy, not camera graphy.



I didn't mean that there is no difference with sensor size or that one may be better than another.  I meant a lot of the arguments that go on between those arguing sensor size is BS.   There are pros and cons to each and in general a bigger sensor is usually always better.  There is no argument in that.   These days your photos speak to what kind of photographer you are not the camera you use or its sensor size.  Almost any camera out there can take fantastic pictures.  Just look at cell phones.
I bought into M43 for a variety of reasons.   The big one being that I have a small, lightweight system that I can easily take on hikes and I am not lugging around a massive 600mm lens.   I don't use tripods and I don't sit in one spot taking pictures.   There other reasons as well but that was top for me.


----------



## BrentC (Jun 2, 2021)

Grandpa Ron said:


> Brent that was rather rude of the fellow. I am afraid that an old guy like me would tell someone who criticized my gear, "If I wanted cheap, I would have bought what you have." But hey, I already know  I am old and opinionated.
> 
> Equipment does not a good photograph make.



If it was today I probably would have some choice words for them.   But I was about 5 months into having my first camera and thought I would join the club to learn as much as I can.   There was one guy who was supposedly great with macro and I was really interested in learning from him.  But that incident really put me off.  If it was today I would just have ignored him and stuck around.   I am sure there was a lot of good people in the club that I could have learned from.


----------



## mrca (Jun 2, 2021)

Ron,  absolutely right.  Ancil said it best, the most important part of the camera is the 12 inches behind it.


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 2, 2021)

When we talk about image quality and sensor size always the "bigger is better" rule will give you the best quality. I don't doubt that. But the photographer's skills can give you better results. With inferior gear you can take better photos than a guy with better one but less experience. Of course better gear can make your life easier. In the example of BrentC who seems to be a wildlife photographer a zoom lens will permit him to take a shot from safe distance from his subject without scare it. But if he is skillful enough he can approach his subject with a camera with not such a "long" lens and quietly take a better shot.


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 2, 2021)

Again, there are cases in wildlife photography where your subject is simply out of reach and you need a zoom lens for example just to be able to take your shot. An example is this vulture I shot. Again because of the limit in attached files I'll have to show screenshots from my phone. The original jpg was approximately 7MB. In this photo the vulture was so far away and in constant movement! Only with a zoom lens I could capture it and I had to be quick and lucky. Quality? Of course not the best possible! But in this cases you can compromise with less. The first image is screenshot of the jpg file and in the second I zoomed in on the same photo.


----------



## mrca (Jun 3, 2021)

Jonny, you are so right.  I tell people, spend a half day with me and I will take theier work up several notches.  A thousand dollar lens or 3 thousand dollar body will only give you more crap, just sharper.   I moved to FL with a 200 yd backyard pond and had some gorgeous birds there: wood storks, egrets and in the spring families of wood ducks.  So I bought a d500 crop body, and a 400mm 2.8 with a 1.7 multiplier, ie 1000 mm to photo the birds.  I started feeding the larger birds and now I can't get focus with my 180 because they come within the 6 ft min focus.  I photo them with my 100 or 85 so  I sold the 400, multiplier and even the 70-200.    I'm a portraitist not a wildlife photographer.  But, realize there are plenty of aholes with cameras, ignore them.  As Carlin said, people say it is tragic that the average IQ is so low, but what is really tragic is about half the people are dumber than that.  When you hear that crap,  chalk it up to them being in the lower half.   Keep working on mastering the craft.


----------



## eastwest4023 (Jun 5, 2021)

Fighting or debating which is it? I guess debating seems more respectable. Some heat doesn't bother me as long as you are not trying to ridicule the other person. And like any sport, when it is all said and done, we should be able to shake hands and move on no matter how heated it was. Maybe I'm too new to express my opinion here so let the attacks begin


----------



## flyingPhoto (Jun 6, 2021)

well i have run across various forums where certain views are held and upheld against all reason and logic on this particular topic. 

I have been on several european forums that will ban members who say anything against the one piece bridge camera. Or those who actually advocate a camera that uses interchangeable lenses for OUTSIDE use. 

I have even seen forum where moderators have "sucker bait" threads on various topics that they use to trap people into saying something the moderator disapproves of and then hit the ban switch on said responders. 

the little point and shoot cameras and bridge cameras are not exactly aimed at the market MOST of us on this forum are into at all.  You truly can call them the modern fixed lens, fixed aperture, single shutter speed point and shoot party camera that uses 35mm canisters. 

Most of us like image quality and resolution and THAT field is done best with a larger sensor size. Its even replicated in the film world. 35mm does great, but compared to a 120 format negative... ehh its readily apparent 120 can do alot nicer on most things.


----------



## flyingPhoto (Jun 6, 2021)

And to respond to several other posts on here at once. 

Camera groups really ARE about trying to make oneself feel superior to others based on having more costly gear.  I once thought about using meetup photography groups as a means to meet people with a common interest. 
That failed in minutes after seeing how 80% of said groups in my STATE were just "meet for coffee and compare new gear purchases" directly stated in the groups "reason for existence statement".


----------



## mrca (Jun 6, 2021)

Flying, unfortunately what  you may be seeing is a result of  the 24/7 manufacturer propaganda that tells photographers this years latest and greatest will transform their photos.  The only thing it transforms is their checking account to  less money.   Instead, all they get is the same crap photos only sharper.   I too have found many folks seem more interested in gear than their photos.  They want to talk about cameras or lenses and not their work.  But I have found, if you listen and bring up shooting and photos, you will find some that are looking to improve their mastery of the craft.  I recently stumbled across a face book site that much to my surprise has most posts containing photos and virtually none of their cameras. lenses or boxes.   A general rule is beware any group that is a "camera" group, as it may well be concentrating on cameras, not photography.  Another observation is a high percentage is old folks, hey, I are one, and few 20 somethings.  We have a couple of meetup groups here run by knowledgeable photographers.   They realize the importance of photo critique and I enjoy helping folks progress by judging some of their competitions.   If you can find a group that does that, you will find people who want to learn and show their work.   After all this is called photo graphy, not camera graphy.


----------



## jonnybaz (Jun 6, 2021)

The beauty in photography is not the gear really. Every person in this forum will choose a certain camera, dSLR,mirrorless, point and shoot,etc. Depending on what we evaluate as more important to us. What we prefer to shoot. More interesting is after this, to try to shoot all the kinds of photos that can be taken with our camera! I mean, to try to take the 100% from it! Obviously it will be excellent for some kind of photography, mediocre to another,bad to some cases. But the effort to try to shoot the best photos we can with our gear gives the most satisfaction in my opinion!


----------



## flyingPhoto (Jun 6, 2021)

mrca said:


> Flying, unfortunately what  you may be seeing is a result of  the 24/7 manufacturer propaganda that tells photographers this years latest and greatest will transform their photos.  The only thing it transforms is their checking account to  less money.   Instead, all they get is the same crap photos only sharper.   I too have found many folks seem more interested in gear than their photos.  They want to talk about cameras or lenses and not their work.  But I have found, if you listen and bring up shooting and photos, you will find some that are looking to improve their mastery of the craft.  I recently stumbled across a face book site that much to my surprise has most posts containing photos and virtually none of their cameras. lenses or boxes.   A general rule is beware any group that is a "camera" group, as it may well be concentrating on cameras, not photography.  Another observation is a high percentage is old folks, hey, I are one, and few 20 somethings.  We have a couple of meetup groups here run by knowledgeable photographers.   They realize the importance of photo critique and I enjoy helping folks progress by judging some of their competitions.   If you can find a group that does that, you will find people who want to learn and show their work.   After all this is called photo graphy, not camera graphy.


Well i DID find some on meetup that were run by the same "professional photographers" who simply use the group as a means to pay for their own private models.


----------

