# Advice on M/L39 lenses



## dxqcanada

Hmm, it appears that I will be getting a couple of rangefinders ... a Canon 7 and a Leica IIF.

Will need to perform some servicing on both ... but both will come without lenses.

Not sure if I want to spill the bucks on getting Canon or Leitz screw mount lenses for either camera ... so anyone here have any suggestions on any good (inexpensive) alternatives ?


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## compur

The Russian lenses can be good.  I have a Jupiter 85/2 that I like. There are also the Bessa R lenses by Voigtlander/Cosina which are quite good too.


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## usayit

You should probably define "inexpensive".   For Leica thread mount, often even a $1000 USD is considered "inexpensive".

Canon 50mm Serenar f/1.9 is a good one... Mine came with my Canon rangefinder.   I also liked the LTM voigtlander 28mm f/1.9 ultron.   I loved the voigtlander 12mm Heliar....


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## dxqcanada

Ah, yeah, should have referenced that ... under $150.00, which is why I cannot afford any Leica lenses.
I have not seen any Canon, Nikon, or Minolta LTM lenses under this price ... just lots of FSU's.

I am thinking that I should up my budget.


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## usayit

Think Russian copies... maybe from a dealer that has a return policy.  Unfortunately, my experience with them is that quality can vary throughout the production... if you find a good one, its pretty good.  If not.. eh.


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## dxqcanada

Yeah, that's what I have been reading ... manufacturing quality is like a box of chocolate, you never know what your going to get.


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## BrianV

The focal length standard for Leica is a nominal 51.6mm; the Zeiss standard is a nominal 52.4mm. The Russian lenses are built to the Zeiss standard, later Russian lenses had a fairly wide tolerance of 1%. That's what the Data Sheets indicate for that come with Russian lenses. Most Russian lenses need to be "paired" up with the body, done by changing a shim that controls the stand-off between the optics module and the focus mount. Once set, most Russian lenses are very good.

The Jupiter-8 50/2 is probably the best bargain out there for Leica thread mount lenses. Mine is modified to close focus to 0.7m on an M-Mount camera, will go to 0.8m on the Canon P.







The Canon 50/1.9 Serenar- An improved Summar. It will not collapse on the Canon 7: it will hit the Light Baffles of the body. They are creeping up in price, but should be available in your price range. It is a low-contrast lens, and sharp enough wide-open. 

The Jupiter-9 85/2: needs to be carefully shimmed to work wide-open on a Leica. On the ones that I have worked on: reduced the focal length by moving the rear group in, and then shimmed it for Leica.


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## vintagesnaps

Getting into LTM bodies and lenses is fairly recent for me; I have one of the newer Voigtlander rangefinders and a lens that I found used (hardly, was still in the box) for around $300. I also got a Corfield lens for under $100; those don't exactly seem too common but I'm getting some good pictures with it.

Sharon


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## BrianV

Buying Russian Lenses off of Ebay, you really have to be careful.

Jupiter 3 1 5 50 for M39 Fed ZORKI Leica Bessa Red P | eBay

This lens has a namering showing it to be a 1951 KMZ lens, which would mean it has German glass in it.

It's a 1970s J-3 with the namering replaced. I've seen more and more of these "impersonators", not quite counterfeit. This one as easy to spot by the design of the rear- only one set of spanner slots, the lenses up to 1963 have two sets of spanner slots. Other lenses- you can only tell after opening them up. KMZ lenses have 1 set screw holding the helical into the mount, later lenses use three. The Ebay sellers put up a lot of fake "Zeiss Sonnars", and "ZK Sonnars". Putting up fake KMZ Jupiter-3's is a new scam. The KMZ J-3's are the best, in my opinion. Sadly, the days of $50 J-3's are over.


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## bhop

Jupiters are the way to go at that price point.. my Jupiter 8 was cheap..

I got mine from fedka
Fedka Web Site




Pink by bhop, on Flickr




Rocky by bhop, on Flickr




Sentinels by bhop, on Flickr


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## BrianV

Well, the Jupiter-3 lens in the Link just sold. I hope no one here bought it thinking that it had German glass in it.

This is with my 1950 Jupiter-3, focal length and shim adjusted for Leica.




L1000008Wide-Open


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## dxqcanada

Ah, I was looking at Jupiter-3's ... and I noted that they are one of the highest priced FSU lenses.

It appears that Jupiter-8M's are cheaper than Jupiter-8's.

... should I just bite the bullet and get a Canon/Nikon/Minolta/Leica lens ?


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## bhop

If you can swing a Leica lens, it'd be worth it IMO.. but prices being what they are, a Jupiter 8 isn't a bad starting point.  If you like 50mm..  I shoot with a Canon 50mm f/1.4 most of the time.  Leica lenses aren't in my 'hobby' budget at the moment, and i'm pretty happy with it.


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## BrianV

Jupiter-8M's are for Contax and Kiev cameras, not for Leica! Jupiter-8 and Jupiter-8-1: look for the thread mount and focus ring. The Jupiter-8M has an aperture ring, but no focus ring. The camera body of the contax/Kiev has it built into.

Minolta Leica Thread Mount lenses are "uncommon", ie pricier.

The Chrome-Mount Canon 50/1.8 is VERY good, and usually can be found at a reasonable price.

If you get a Jupiter-8, there are two versions: chrome mount and black mount. The latter are newer, easier to work on. I can post instructions on setting the shim.

For the J-3, Jason Howe has kindly hosted some PDF's for adjusting the Jupiter-3.

50mm Jupiter 3 f/1.5 Information

Kim Coxon Has instructions for the J-8:

PENTAX MANUALS

If you can find a reasonable prices Nikkor 5cm F2 in LTM: they are beautifully made, and have very smooth Bokeh.

On this forum, I've been uploading example shots with various lenses here:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/mirrorless-cameras/317670-lenses-leica-example-shots.html


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## bhop

BrianV said:


> Jupiter-8M's are for Contax and Kiev cameras, not for Leica! Jupiter-8 and Jupiter-8-1: look for the thread mount and focus ring. The Jupiter-8M has an aperture ring, but no focus ring. The camera body of the contax/Kiev has it built into.
> 
> Minolta Leica Thread Mount lenses are "uncommon", ie pricier.
> 
> The Chrome-Mount Canon 50/1.8 is VERY good, and usually can be found at a reasonable price.
> 
> If you get a Jupiter-8, there are two versions: chrome mount and black mount. The latter are newer, easier to work on. I can post instructions on setting the shim.
> 
> For the J-3, Jason Howe has kindly hosted some PDF's for adjusting the Jupiter-3.
> 
> 50mm Jupiter 3 f/1.5 Information
> 
> Kim Coxon Has instructions for the J-8:
> 
> PENTAX MANUALS
> 
> If you can find a reasonable prices Nikkor 5cm F2 in LTM: they are beautifully made, and have very smooth Bokeh.
> 
> On this forum, I've been uploading example shots with various lenses here:
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/mirrorless-cameras/317670-lenses-leica-example-shots.html



Do you have shim instructions for the J-8?  mine's always been slightly off..


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## BrianV

If you post how far the actual focus is off at a given distance, I can compute how much the shim needs to be thickened or thinned.

It is just like the Jupiter-3: The optics module unscrews from the focus mount, the new shim goes into place, and the hard part is moving the aperture ring to line up correctly after screwing the optics back in. The Three set screws for the aperture come out, and most of the time can be screwed back in to hold the ring into place. Occasionally, you need to tap out holes for the set screws, like on the J-3. Most J-8's and J-3's: back-focus about 1"~2" at 3ft, when used wide-open. Increase the shim 0.1mm corrects 80% of them. About 2 layers of thin kitchen aluminum foil.

This is with an early Jupiter-8 wide-open, adjusted by setting the shim using the "0.1mm rule of thumb".


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## dxqcanada

Thanks for the info Brian ... I already found Jason's site, but not Kim's.


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## dxqcanada

bhop said:


> I shoot with a Canon 50mm f/1.4 most of the time.



I wish I could find a Canon lens (that I can afford) to go with the Canon 7.


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## BrianV

The Canon 50/1.4 goes in the $300 range, not much less than the modern Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.5 aspheric. The Nokton is much sharper. The Canon 50/1.5 is a Sonnar formula lens- and has gone out of sight. The 50/1.8 is a fine performer, the equal of the 1950s Summicron. The Black version is subject to etched glass on the surface behind the aperture IF oil seeps in. It reacted badly with a new type of glass. The chrome version with older glass- aged better. The 50/1.9- "an old look to it". I'll post some shots with mine. It is soft and low-contrast compared with the 50/1.8.

I did a big sell-off to buy the Monochrom, sold off many of the duplicate lenses. The J-8 that i have now is a real Franken-Lens, I modified the internals and purposely misthreaded the helical to make it close-focus. I could never sell it, no one else could work on it. I do take requests from forum members to adjust J-3's and J-8's, and always prefer to help others do-it-themselves. They are not hard to work on, but some patience and a few tools are required.


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## bhop

dxqcanada said:


> bhop said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shoot with a Canon 50mm f/1.4 most of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could find a Canon lens (that I can afford) to go with the Canon 7.
Click to expand...


Canon Rangefinder 50 F1.8 CANON BLACK/CHROME (40) 35MM RANGEFINDER MANUAL FOCUS STANDARD ANGLE LENS - KEH.com


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## dxqcanada

Thanks ... I looked at KEH, and it appears I missed that one.


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## dxqcanada

Hmm, have a question about KEH's ratings ... this lens: Canon Rangefinder 35 F2.8 CANON CHROME (34) GLASS UGLY 35MM RANGEFINDER MANUAL FOCUS WIDE ANGLE LENS - KEH.com is noted as EX, but the description says the lens is "ugly" ??


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## compur

"Glass ugly" does sound a bit off-putting.  I've never seen them say that before.  

Their items are usually better than their descriptions would indicate and you can return anything you buy from them. I know one of the KEH buyers and see him every few weeks at local camera shows. He is very fussy about condition of the stuff he buys and KEH in general is also very conservative on the ratings they use on their web site.  Once I sold him a Nikon DSLR which I thought was cosmetically very good but he said KEH would call it "BGN" when they sold it.


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## BrianV

KEH takes returns. On a Black Canon 50/1.8: check the surface behind the aperture for haze/ coating damage/ etched glass. KEH usually makes notes of this, and they are very good in the descriptions for problems. 

A lens with UGLY glass for $215- In would pass on it. 

A Jupiter-12 35/2.8 in Leica mount will work on the IIf, probably will bang the light baffles of the Canon 7. I've used it on a Leica M9 without problems.


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## dxqcanada

Ok, got my Leica IIF ... the rangefinder needs work, can't see a thing through it (was expecting some issue with it).
Looks like I am going to have to take the top off.

Watching a couple of Ebay auctions ... though I may end up with KEH.


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## BrianV

Youxin Ye does wonders with barnack Leica's. He has replaced and rebuilt the RF/Viewfinder in several of mine. It will run in the $150 range for a rebuild.

What did the IIf run you?

If you ever need to tape the top plate off the Canon 7: there are some "gotcha's". The frameline selector has to line up perfectly with the underlying linkage or you cannot fire the shutter release. Guess how I know.


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## BrianV

These are test pictures with the Canon 50/1.9 Serenar after disassembling, clean, lube, and repair. It was missing the screws that hold the helical in place. I found the screws from a Canonet Ql17 G3 that hold one of the lens plates in place fit perfectly. At F4 and F1.9, full image with 100% crop. You can see some focus shift going from F1.9 to F4. It looks to be optimzied for F2.8. This is an "old School" lens, low-contrast- but not as low as the Uncoated Summar.


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## BrianV

Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm F1 5 L39 Leica Screw Red T 1938 EX | eBay

Another counterfeit, this time a Jupiter-3 pretending to be a Sonnar. The focus mount is later J-3, the aperture ring is J-3, the alloy used in the barrel is early J-3. 

The Serial number in the fake namering is from a batch of 7.5cm F3.5 Tessars from 1938. The only way that you will find a pre-war Sonnar in Leica mount is of someone converted it. And they would leave the original aperture ring with "wings" in place.


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## dxqcanada

BrianV said:


> What did the IIf run you?



$165 + 45 for shipping.

This is my first venture into the world of Leica screwmount rangefinders.


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## BrianV

So if you return it- you lose two-way shipping.

For a IIf, which is uncommon compared with a IIIf, that is a good price. 

Old cameras can get expensive. If you can repair it yourself, it's a bargain. Paying for Youxin or someone else to repair-you get a great working camera. Lenses have become very expensive compared to 10 years ago, mostly because of Digital Leica RF's and mirrorless.


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## dxqcanada

OK. I now have some experience with removal of the top plate on a Leica IIF.

Crap ... it appears that the real problem with the camera is a missing rear lens on the rangefinder port.
The lens on the viewfinder port is there.

Gatta hunt down a part now.


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## BrianV

Leica Screwmount

You might Email DAG. The part should be the same as the IIIf and IIIc.

Can you post some pictures? Never know if the Russian part will work, I doubt it but might be worth a look.


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## dxqcanada

Ah, asked DAG already ... they have none to sell.
I think it is the same lens on the IIIF.

Rangefinderforum.com

42 216-477

... now, being a Leica newbie, I am assuming the missing lens is the reason why I cannot see a clear image through the rangefinder.


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## BrianV

The link does not work if you do not have a working RFF account. I might be the first Moderator to bypass the software that prevents a Mod from banning themself. 

Missing the eyepiece will make everything a complete blur. If the viewfinder is black- like what happens on an M3, coupld be a split prism.

The IIF has a one-piece body cover, the older Barnack cameras up to and including the IIIb have a separate top plate.


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## usayit

If you cant find a good Leica SM rangefinder, i highly recommend the Canon leica screwmount rangefinders.   I personally like them better and may be priced a bit better for budget.    It found much more use than my leica.   There are several advantages to the Canon.


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## BrianV

With lenses in Leica mount- never say never.

USSR Antique Portrait Lens Jupiter 8 50 F2 for Leica Fed ZORKI M39 LTM Lens | eBay

Someone custom converted this Jupiter-8M into Leica Thread Mount using an Industar-61 focus mount. I am going to have to try this.

Same seller, another conversion using an I-26 focus mount and the Jupiter-8M.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USSR-Antiqu...838?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53f5c604c6

I made a Helios-103 into Leica Thread Mount once. Dremel required.


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## dxqcanada

BrianV said:


> The link does not work if you do not have a working RFF account. I might be the first Moderator to bypass the software that prevents a Mod from banning themself.
> 
> Missing the eyepiece will make everything a complete blur. If the viewfinder is black- like what happens on an M3, coupld be a split prism.
> 
> The IIF has a one-piece body cover, the older Barnack cameras up to and including the IIIb have a separate top plate.



Ah, that link was to a discussion about someone else that is looking for the exact same lenses.
Yeah, the rangefinder is a blur ... I can only make out things if they are almost right up close to the camera.
I have taken the top plate off and can see that the view/rangefinder is good ... so it appears the only problem is the missing lens.


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## dxqcanada

usayit said:


> If you cant find a good Leica SM rangefinder, i highly recommend the Canon leica screwmount rangefinders.   I personally like them better and may be priced a bit better for budget.    It found much more use than my leica.   There are several advantages to the Canon.



Yup, ahead of you there. Just got a Canon 7 today.
It was supposed to be a parts/repair camera as the seller stated the shutter does not open completely ... I can't find any problem with the shutter at all speeds. Looks like I lucked out.


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## dxqcanada

Ah, got lucky on a Canon P with Canon 35mm f/2.8 lens ... should have it an a week or two.

Think I will stick to Canon screw mount lenses ... seem reasonable in price.
Hmm, maybe I should take a chance on getting the Canon 50mm f/1.4.


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## BrianV

The Canon 50/1.4 is a very good lens, again- be careful of haze/etching on the surfaces on each side of the aperture.


48mm filters, easier to find than 40mm. The lens is well balanced on the Canon 7. I like to use a smaller Sonnar formula lens on the Canon P.


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## dxqcanada

Lots of "hazy" LTM lenses out there ... very tempting prices, but haze is a risky thing.

Yeah, that was my thinking also ... my 7 would look better with a larger lens.


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## BrianV

The modern Cosine/Voigtlander 50/1.5 in LTM goes for $50~$100 more than the Canon 50/1.4, and less that the 50/1.5. With the new M-Mount version coming out, I would keep an eye on the classified ads on various forums for people "upgrading". This lens and the 35/1.7 Ultron are under-rated and a real value. The Ultron is much better than the Canon 35/2, cost about the same these days.


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## gsgary

I have been given a Jupiter 12 35mm lens and it is quite a nice lens


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## BrianV

The Jupiter-12 is a Zeiss Biogon copy. Good ones are quite good- I've used one with the M8 and M9. 

Be careful with a Canon 7 and Canon P: rear element can hang on the light baffes of the body.


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## dxqcanada

So now I have two lenses ... both in great optical condition:

Canon 50mm f/1.8 chrome (type 3)
Canon 35mm f/2.8 chrome/black (type 5)

I am still coping with how physically small the 35mm is ... especially on my Canon 7 body.

Still have not landed the 50mm f/1.4 ... still trying.

I am getting a Chiyoko (Minolta) Super Rokkor 5cm f/2 soon ... with a Minolta-35 (hopefully in working condition).


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