# Getting fake quotes off of competing photographers immoral??



## Phtoo (Dec 31, 2011)

Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point, and make sure i wasn't under/overpricing for standard jobs. but this feels immoral, any ideas? better ways of going about it. or should i just go for it


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## katerolla (Dec 31, 2011)

not sure if that would help you, there is no set fee for this industry, you just have to work out what your "Cost of Doing Business" is, what knowledge and experience you have and charge accordingly


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## Phtoo (Dec 31, 2011)

completely understand that. but just wanted to get pricing on standard jobs - from entry level pricing, to higher end photographers - just to help me understand better how to position my pricing. understand there is a lot more to it, and different photographers have different daily costs to cover. but just for interest sakes. not to copy there pricing or anything.


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## digital flower (Dec 31, 2011)

Would you want to spend (waste) the time giving fake quotes to beginners when you are in business?:er:


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## rub (Dec 31, 2011)

Why not contact a few photographers, introduce yourself, and offer to take them for coffee. Explain that while you are new to the business, you would like to make some industry connections meet others in your chosen profession. Explain to them all of the CODB calculations you have made, who your target market is, and why you are interested in breaking into the field. 

You might be pleasantly surprised what a bit of honesty and good will will do for you, rather than just sneaking around. Other photographers will respect all of the work you have done and see that their comments are only going to be a small factor in your overall pricing strategy. 

Mind you a couple will likely tell you to go pound sand, but there are people like that in every industry.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 31, 2011)

Not all photographers hide their pricing???


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## SCraig (Dec 31, 2011)

As has been mentioned above, check their web sites or be open and honest about what you are asking.  Anything else is just plain wrong.  If you are going to be in business for yourself then you have to be able to make your own decisions as to the operation of that business, and setting your own prices (which should have been done as part of your business plan) is part of that.


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## Phtoo (Dec 31, 2011)

the fashion guys do


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## gsgary (Dec 31, 2011)

From the posts you have posted with basic questions about photography i don't think you are ready


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## Overread (Dec 31, 2011)

Chances are even if you're open and honest the only busiess who will share their inner workings with you is one that is just about to close down - otherwise its giving away their operation (even if its not hidden info people still feel defensive - esp when the topic focuses around money).

As said above the first thing that should set your prices is your full cost of doing business, combined with your ideal work hours, living costs and your profit. Regardless of what the others are charging locally, this sets your base value, the minimum that you can work for whilst maintaining a healthy income that won't cripple you. 


As for getting prices on the other locals, first up check their websites or ask for a promotional flier/etc... that way you get a look at the kind of prices they are charging and also at the kind of product that they deliver. On the subject of "fake quotes" this is open to personal choice. Some will and some won't make contact to ask for a basic pricing structure, but (as said above) chances are if you pitch yourself as the competition in the opening you won't get anything out of them. Note that many who do ask for "fake" quotes ask family to do the asking for them.


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## Rekd (Dec 31, 2011)

Why *wouldn't* you get pricing from them? :meh:


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## Chris R (Dec 31, 2011)

Rekd said:


> Why *wouldn't* you get pricing from them? :meh:



In the end does it really matter what others are charging? Without knowing the entire inner workings of their business what good does knowing their prices really tell you? What if every photographer in this person's area just happens to be a huge failure running a sinking ship because they all feel that they need to price compete with each other?

Figure out exactly how much it costs to do business and then figure out how much you feel your time and talent is truly worth. In theory you could charge $50 a session and have 7 clients per week or you could charge $20,000 a session and have 1 client per year. when all is said and done you've made just about the same amount of money and probably put in the same amount of work. I feel it's important to make this decision right off the bat because if you start cheap your clients will always expect cheap which means moving up may mean having to start from scratch all over again.


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## Rekd (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris R said:


> Rekd said:
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> > Why *wouldn't* you get pricing from them? :meh:
> ...



Yes. Yes it does.


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2011)

Rekd said:


> Chris R said:
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> > Rekd said:
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Absolutely it does.  Assume for a moment that your CDB is $10 for an 8x10 print.  Most other photographers in your region providing work of comparable calibre are charging $25.  You would be FOOLISH to only charge $10.  Raising your prices to close to the market norm will put you at the 'grown-up table' and give you a great deal more $$ in your pocket as well.  With respect to the OPs question, I don't see anything wrong with calling up the competition and asking for their prices if they don't publish them.  Of course there's a difference between asking for a quote and wasting someone's time making them think that they've got a job.


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## etnad0 (Dec 31, 2011)

1) You're going to need binoculars, wireless lapel mics, a black suit, several SUV's , a fake search warrant, and a bunch of friends.
2) Wait until the photographers arrive at their place of business.
3) Pull up really fast in the SUV's, surrounding the photographer.
4) Hand him the fake warrant.
5) Confiscate all of his equipment including his camera.
6) Repeat with all photographers in the area.
7) You now have no competition and you can charge what you want.

*Do not try this at home or anywhere else for that matter. The above comments are just for entertainment purposes only. 

Figured I'd add a disclaimer for those that take the internet too seriously.


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## Overread (Dec 31, 2011)

Furthermore there might be additional costs of doing busisness that are not readily apparent as well as seasonal considerations for the services you provide. Taking Tiredirons example, part of that $25 might well represent peek time savings to help you tide over during the off-season when you might well find that you simply have less customers. 

Finally undercutting your competition can net you more sales, but constant undercutting only ever drives the consumers value of the product down; if you contribute to increased reductions you can find that it starts to devalue your product to the point where you're having to shift toward mass low sales to make up for what was once fewer high sales.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 31, 2011)

etnad0 said:


> 1) You're going to need binoculars, wireless lapel mics, a black suit, several SUV's , a fake search warrant, and a bunch of friends.
> 2) Wait until the photographers arrive at their place of business.
> 3) Pull up really fast in the SUV's, surrounding the photographer.
> 4) Hand him the fake warrant.
> ...



:lmao:


I do it all the time and I've talked about doing it here on the forum.

Yes, true, you can find some people willing to talk to you without this stupid trick. But not that many. It is true however that a whole lot of photogs have their prices/rates in the open and you just need to check out websites.


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## jake337 (Dec 31, 2011)

It could b e helpfull to know what others are charging.  But really, you should already know how much you need to charge,  based on your business plan.  You should have your business plan in order first.  Once you understand what you need to charge to be profitable, then maybe call check out other similar businesses and what they are charging, jsut to make sure your not selling yourself short compared to them.  

Anyways I would charge more than what they are charging.  Most people believe you get what you pay for, right?  Whether that is true or not in all cases is..........


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## Chris R (Dec 31, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Rekd said:
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> > Chris R said:
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If this is true them why doesn't the Hyundai dealer call their nearest Mercedes dealer and raise their prices accordingly so that they can sit at the grown up table? Both companies sell basically the same thing and both companies make a profit (usually) so does this mean the Hyundai dealer is foolish for losing out on that extra $40,000 Meredes makes on a sale?


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris R said:


> If this is true them why doesn't the Hyundai dealer call their nearest Mercedes dealer and raise their prices accordingly so that they can sit at the grown up table? *Both companies sell basically the same thing* and both companies make a profit (usually) so does this mean the Hyundai dealer is foolish for losing out on that extra $40,000 Meredes makes on a sale?



???????????????????

Hyundai and MB sell the same thing? You lost me there...


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## Overread (Dec 31, 2011)

Because with a $40.000 price difference they are not competing. Anyone that has the extra money to spend is likely not looking at the lower tier cars and vis versa.


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## Chris R (Dec 31, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Chris R said:
> 
> 
> > If this is true them why doesn't the Hyundai dealer call their nearest Mercedes dealer and raise their prices accordingly so that they can sit at the grown up table? *Both companies sell basically the same thing* and both companies make a profit (usually) so does this mean the Hyundai dealer is foolish for losing out on that extra $40,000 Meredes makes on a sale?
> ...


Now we're cookin' ...they both sell essentially the same product - an automobile with an internal combustion engine that people use to commute with so why isn't hyundai raising their prices to match mercedes? I will give you a hint: It's the same exact reason a photographer shouldn't raise or lower their prices based on other photographers.


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## imagemaker46 (Dec 31, 2011)

Photographers for the most part talk a better business than they really have, they won't admit to failure.  For years whenever any of the pro shooters I know ask how business is, I tell them honestly, it sucks when when sucks or i've had a good couple of months, they usually say the same thing. It should come down to how experienced you are when comparing yourself to other photographers, but that doesn't seem to enter into the factor anymore, so many feel that they "are" as good and therefore should be "allowed" to charge the same.  If they feel they are good enough then they should be able to back it up.  I'm honest with the people I know. If someone asks me how much my day rate is, and they have the potential to be competition, I usually add a few hundred.  I have a professional ethic, and have respect for other shooters that do as well, we don't poach each others clients, it's also the quickest way of being on the outs with everyone.

Having said this, I go on web sites all the time, even photographers outside my field, just to see what they are charging, I don't change my rates based on what they say. I don't have any "packages" listed on my site, I put prices together based on the length of the job, the client(doing some research before a quote on how their business is going) and then ask them what kind of budget are they working with.  I have been asked for a quote, told them and never hear back, it's not that the quote is really high, they are looking for cheap, and I just don't offer cheap.  My fees are in line with most, higher than some and lower than many.  Am I always turning profits, nope not a chance, is my business suffering in this economy, yes it is.  Do I struggle every month, no, is it getting more difficult, yes.

Aquire all the information you can, and don't feel guilty about it, the answers you may receive from alot of professionals may not be the absolute truth.   It's like reading that I can buy a plane ticket from Canada to Australia for $7, add on the seat tax, fuel tax, country tax, security tax, carbon footprint tax, turn your head and cough tax, and now I can get the ticket for $1500.  It's all what you choose to believe.

This isn't just restricted to photography.


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris R said:


> tirediron said:
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Annie Leibowitz and I both sell our photographic skills...  why don't I earn as much as she does?  Next time, read my whole post!


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## KmH (Jan 1, 2012)

WTF is a "standard job"?


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## tirediron (Jan 1, 2012)

KmH said:


> WTF is a "standard job"?


One where you have to change gears using the clutch and shift-lever?


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## RacePhoto (Jan 1, 2012)

Phtoo said:


> Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point, and make sure i wasn't under/overpricing for standard jobs. but this feels immoral, any ideas? better ways of going about it. or should i just go for it



Two things, you are asking a reasonable question. Here's  a link to getting started and what's #1?

"*1. Know your market*: What is the average value of photographers  work in your area? Compare and contrast and decide where your work can  fit in. Dont forget to evaluate your service, quality of imagery, and  professionalism."

How to Set the Price for Your Photography

You can probably get an idea of pricing without asking for "fake quotes" Heck just phone them and ask "How Much Do You Charge?"

Second: Have you every heard of Google? 

Third: here are some standards, you can find tables and price guides all over the place on the web.

Digital Photography Standards: Pricing

Fourth: Good Luck, I hope you make it!


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## unpopular (Jan 1, 2012)

Phtoo said:


> Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point, and make sure i wasn't under/overpricing for standard jobs. but this feels immoral, any ideas? better ways of going about it. or should i just go for it



This is business, not playtime. Come on people.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 1, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Phtoo said:
> 
> 
> > Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point, and make sure i wasn't under/overpricing for standard jobs. but this feels immoral, any ideas? better ways of going about it. or should i just go for it
> ...



Except that for 99% of the people on here, it is still just playtime.


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## unpopular (Jan 1, 2012)

Most industries are concerned with ethical issues like not sleeping with clients in exchange for services. Professional photographers have all these goofy "ethics" that don't really make a lot of sense aside from protecting the "old mens photography club" of professional photographers.

The only thing immoral about this is the act of lying. But that's between you and God, not your competition.


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## pgriz (Jan 1, 2012)

Actually, why ask for a fake quote?  Figure out who your most likely competition will be and go hire them to do a shoot.  Be a customer.  Negotiate you fee.  Observe how they approach you as a prospect.  See how they handle their client sales.  Do the shoot with them, and see how well they are organized and how well they execute.  At the end, you're out some money for the service.  But you have got a pretty deep and clear view of the operation.  I'd say it is money well spent.


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## tirediron (Jan 1, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Actually, why ask for a fake quote? Figure out who your most likely competition will be and go hire them to do a shoot. Be a customer. Negotiate you fee. Observe how they approach you as a prospect. See how they handle their client sales. Do the shoot with them, and see how well they are organized and how well they execute. At the end, you're out some money for the service. But you have got a pretty deep and clear view of the operation. I'd say it is money well spent.


Not a bad idea if you're only up against one person, but today, even the smallest towns seem to have several photograhers; that could get very expensive.


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## KmH (Jan 1, 2012)

I'll say it again....the best business advice I was ever given was:



> Mind your own business, not the other guy's business.



You set your prices based on your CODB and the profit margin you want or need to stay in business. 

For all you know, that other guy's prices are supported by other income.


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## pgriz (Jan 1, 2012)

@Keith, I agree and disagree.  I agree with the second part of your post, but it is important, especially in a competitive environment, to know what your competition is doing, and how they are doing it.   Then, you can make your business more unique, more efficient, more focused, more responsive...  than the competition.  If one of my prospects is trying to decide between my company and that of the competition, I had better know exactly what my competition is saying and selling.  Then I can make the tactical decision to emphasize certain aspects of my company/product/service that will be more attractive to my prospect.


But I wholeheartedly agree with you that pricing cannot be set based on what your competitors do.


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## Tee (Jan 1, 2012)

Phtoo said:


> the fashion guys do



There's also a lot more variables involved than a portrait session in a studio.  The client may contact a marketing agency or you directly but then you may or may not have to contact modeling agencies, make-up artists, stylists, is the shoot in a studio or location based, half day/ full day rates, one day or multi-day.  The list goes on.  I've helped a local commercial photographer several times and I'm always picking his brain from the business side.  He had a local upscale boutique contact him to shoot their clothing line.  They wanted him to organize everything from location, ideas to hiring models.  On another shoot, he was but one part of the cog.  A third party organized everything.  He does ala cart pricing beginning with the minimum cost it takes just to hire him.  Everything extra asked of him costs an additional fee.  Again, this is my limited experience in a medium sized market.  I find the world of fashion photography fascinating.  It's cut throat.  Not every Joe gets a chance to shoot for Vogue.  The more I learn from photographers who are very good at what they do the more I realize I'm going to stay at the very serious hobbyiest level.

ETA: if you're contatcing them to stay at the same price point then just tell them your intent.  I'm speculating here but I would think another photographer in your area of business would be more helpful to you knowing you're not trying to undercut their prices....unless you really are in which case that's shady.


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## unpopular (Jan 1, 2012)

tirediron said:


> today, even the smallest towns seem to have several photograhers; that could get very expensive.



Exactly. And that is exactly why we're seeing these goofy "professional standards" in the first place.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 1, 2012)

unpopular said:


> tirediron said:
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> > today, even the smallest towns seem to have several photograhers; that could get very expensive.
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There are so many "professional photographers" that aren't even close to being professional photographers, out there pretending. It is difficult to figure out who really is the competition.  In my home city of close to a million and pre-digital, I knew almost every photographer that was working as a professional, that included all the studios, wire services, newspapers, etc. Since digital, I know a handfull of the professionals, the rest are all the "I own a camera-have a website-photographers"  As I said it would be difficult to figure out these days who is the competition for anyone just starting out. I suppose everyone is. Unless people can set themselves apart from all the other camera owners, which in most cases is next to impossible for the majority, they will just be fighting with each other for the crumbs.  I don't have a problem with this, they aren't my competition.


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## Rekd (Jan 2, 2012)

Chris R said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
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You're close, but still way off. I'll try to explain it to you but you have to try real hard to pay attention to how this works... It's not an MB vs a Hyundai because obviously they're NOT the same thing. But if you drive both those cars to the corner to BUY GAS I'm sure you'll look on each corner to check the price right? You'll usually go to the lowest price place right? Or at least the lower price, depending on the crowds and other factors.

Well that's why the OP should get pricing of local competition. If he's over on the north-east corner selling his go-go juice for $4.00 a gallon and you come in selling the same thing for $8.00 a gallon, how many customers do you think you'll get? 

My guess is: Not many. Why? Because the OP didn't make sure he was being locally competitive.

The plus side is he'll never have any lines and with no usage he prolly has a clean place. But is that worth double the price?

And pgriz has great advice. If you can afford it, you could learn a lot from it.


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## HelenOster (Jan 2, 2012)

Phtoo said:


> Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point, and make sure i wasn't under/overpricing for standard jobs. but this feels immoral, any ideas? better ways of going about it. or should i just go for it




You might find this is useful: How Much Should I Charge?


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## skieur (Jan 2, 2012)

Of course, if you have a unique style and/or a niche market, then competition is not a problem and you can name your own rates.

skieur


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 2, 2012)

skieur said:


> Of course, if you have a unique style and/or a niche market, then competition is not a problem and you can name your own rates.
> 
> skieur



This is the situation that I work within.

If I was to start shooting weddings or doing studio portraits full time, I would have to research what is an acceptable amount to charge, I do know however that if I based it on my experience as a skilled professional with 35 years of shooting, I would feel it reasonable to charge in the mid-high range.


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## Kolander (Jan 7, 2012)

Phtoo said:


> Starting out in business i was thinking i could get 'fake' quotes of other photographers in the area, to get a rough idea of average price point...



I asked a friend for that, when I arrived in Vienna


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