# Talk Me Out of It... (Tripod)



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 26, 2012)

So I spent the weekend watching a CreativeLive webinar on maternity and baby photography.  The instructor was Sandy Puc'.

I have to say I was incredibly impressed, both with the CreativeLive concept and Sandy as an instructor.

Before this weekend, I knew I desparately needed to invest in upgrading my tripod/ballhead.  I had been considering Gitzo, Manfrotto, and Giotto for legs, and Arca Swiss, Really Right Stuff, and Kirk Industries for a ball head.  But after watching Sandy Puc' shoot all weekend with Manfrotto 058B legs and 222 Pisto Grip Head, I'm lusting hard...  (for the equipment, lol)

Here's the quandry: I have not "narrowed" my photographic interests yet.  I consider myself an advanced hobbyist with pro interests.  I shoot portraiture, product, landscape, sports (kids), and family events.  The 058B/222 combo would absolutely rock for portraiture in a controlled environment, but is far from ideal for my other interests...

I'm very interested in your thoughts on pros/cons or suggested alternatives...


----------



## baturn (Feb 26, 2012)

I can not, in good conscience talk you out of a tool which is and has been part of photography since its very beginning.


----------



## 480sparky (Feb 26, 2012)

baturn said:


> I can not, in good conscience talk you out of a tool which is and has been part of photography since its very beginning.



Ditto.  Have one, good all-around tri is almost a necessity.  Once you have one, you'll want more.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 26, 2012)

If you need to upgrade.. go for it! But pick something that will suit the type of shooting you do, not something you saw someone else using! Don't care for the Pistol Grips myself.. prefer just a standard ballhead!


----------



## Timoris (Feb 26, 2012)

Obtained a good Manfrotto leg and Head combo, I haven't looked back since. It's a good investment.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Feb 26, 2012)

Even a really good pistol grip will drift a few mm.  I'd stick with an arca-swiss compatible ball head.

As for the brand and model...go with the absolute best you can afford.  If you don't, you'll be upgrading a year or two down the road, and spending more $$ to get what you could have gotten the first time.

Take a good, hard look at Feisol.  They're not a big player, but they're extremely well made and about half the price of a comparable Gitzo...


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Feb 26, 2012)

I enjoy my carbon manfrotto a lot


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 27, 2012)

baturn said:


> I can not, in good conscience talk you out of a tool which is and has been part of photography since its very beginning.



LOL!  Ok..  I probably could have been clearer...  (note to self: less whiskey, more tango)

I don't want anyone to talk me out of a tripod.  I'm in.  I'm all the way in.  I don't believe in going cheap.  I know myself.  I'll hate it and chase the upgrade trail.  I believe in doing my homework and getting it right on the first go.

What I want is to be talked out of the 058B legs and/or pistol grip.

I am in AWE of just how fast that setup can be repositioned, though.  The quick release on the legs lets allows you to go from floor to ceiling in, oh, a second?

I'm currently shooting a lot of babies.  That's mostly a coincidence of family and friends all having babies right now, but I find I enjoy it.  A lot.

One of the keys to decent shots here, though, has been keeping the kid engaged.  I HAVE to make and keep eye contact.  I can't be buried behind the viewfinder.  The tripod is a huge help, and the speed with which the 058/222 setup moves is the draw for me.

In posting all of this, what I'm hoping for is suggestions to other leg/head combinations that allow that speed/flexibility, but with greater travel-ability.  I don't know if that compromise exists.  If it doesn't, I'm pretty well sold.  If it does, that's what I want to explore.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 27, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Take a good, hard look at Feisol.  They're not a big player, but they're extremely well made and about half the price of a comparable Gitzo...



Noted!  I will look them up.


----------



## TheBiles (Feb 27, 2012)

Can't go wrong with Manfrotto.  

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## analog.universe (Feb 27, 2012)

You should read this article: Tripods and Ball Heads by Thom Hogan

Your initial impulse to shop Gitzo, RRS, and Arcaswiss was a good one.  Cheaping out on a tripod I can not recommend.  The main job of a tripod is to be absolutely unshakably rock solid.  As soon as you start going for pistol grips and super convenient and low cost and whatever else, you sacrifice the one thing you're actually buying the tripod for.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 27, 2012)

analog.universe said:


> You should read this article: Tripods and Ball Heads by Thom Hogan
> 
> Your initial impulse to shop Gitzo, RRS, and Arcaswiss was a good one.  Cheaping out on a tripod I can not recommend.  The main job of a tripod is to be absolutely unshakably rock solid.  As soon as you start going for pistol grips and super convenient and low cost and whatever else, you sacrifice the one thing you're actually buying the tripod for.


 

That is a GREAT article.  I read it for the first time a few weeks ago and absolutely agree with it.


----------



## Big Mike (Feb 27, 2012)

I was going to recommend the article mentioned above.

That article (and others like it) can be a bit of a wake-up call.  A really good tripod set-up can easily cost you $1800.  That's probably A LOT more that you were figuring on spending...but it is what it is.  

A good analogy that we would all understand is digital cameras.  On non-photography forums, when most people talk about cameras, they compare the features of point & shoot camera, camera phones and bridge cameras.  We sort of laugh at them and talk about DSLR cameras.
Well, most of the tripod discussions here, talk about $300 tripods & heads....but those who know about and use serious tripods, would laugh at our discussions.  

Of course, it's plain to see that many of us don't need $1000 tripod and $500 heads, but there are some who do.  And as that article points out, if you're going to get to that point eventually, you might as well go there first and save some money.

As for the pistol grip...I always though that they were cool looking and no doubt that they are quick & easy.  But if you're trying to achieve maximum image quality, where the camera has to be as still as possible, they aren't a great tool.  They don't tend to lock perfectly, and will have a tiny bit of play.  But worse, when you need to to a vertical shot, you put the camera way outside the centre of gravity.  This would also be bad for taking multiple shots for stitched panos.
But if you're mainly shooting kids, shutter speed probably won't be an issue (it needs to be fast anyway) so the tripod set-up you choose probably won't matter as much.


----------



## analog.universe (Feb 27, 2012)

If it's relevant to your research, I use a Gitzo GT3531 with a Markins Q10 head, and they're both awesome.  I've never felt the need for something "more convenient", that head is so precise and adjusts with a single knob, it's plenty fast for me.  Even the weight of this setup is fine all day in the mountains, very impressive relative to it's stability.

I would suggest a set of spikey feet though, the rubber ones it comes with are a bit squishy.


----------



## Overread (Feb 27, 2012)

The 055series legs are good legs - not the best and not the worst. The only thing I don't like about the newer make of them is that they have the central column set to horizontal whilst at low shooting heights. This sounds really neat till you try it and find that its just too wobbly when extended away from the middle - and if you have it close to the middle you end up with a 4th leg sticking out that you have to fiddle with. 
Better are tripods where the middle column removes and a low height head is bolted pretty much right to the base of the legs itself. That works far better for low angle shooting - I think there is a newer 055 series that has this feature. Gitzo also use this feature - furthermore Gitzo are pretty much the top legs you can get. (if costing an arm and a leg). 



Tripod head wise I've got a pistol grip and -- I don't like it. It's great for fast repositioning and for prime lenses, but if you've got a zoom or you want any manual focusing control whilst panning (as an example) you're sunk. This is because there is no lock on the grip - if you want pressure off you've got to keep gripping the trigger the whole time. 
A lot of what tripod head you get depends on your interests - the Kirk/Arca Swiss type heads are often considered better because you can then use their quick release plate system (which is superior to the likes of manfrottos) - esp for big lenses). Again cost comes into it you can easily spend £300 on a ballhead and then need another £75 just for the plate to mount to it (and plates are designed to fit specific camera bodies or lenses its not totally universal). 

In the end I'd say sit down and take a long think about things - esp if you want to be travelling (walking) with the gear. A lightweight and stable tripod will cost you a small fortune but the trade off is you're far more likely to actually use it. Good tripod heads are also very important - and again your interests will start to dictate what they should be.


Ps - http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-acratech-gv2-head/p1019787 is the ballhead I'd go for for a generalist use with a mind for heavier gear needing support (up to around 300mm f2.8 weight).


----------



## Big Mike (Feb 27, 2012)

> The 055series legs are good legs - not the best and not the worst. The only thing I don't like about the newer make of them is that they have the central column set to horizontal whilst at low shooting heights. This sounds really neat till you try it and find that its just too wobbly when extended away from the middle - and if you have it close to the middle you end up with a 4th leg sticking out that you have to fiddle with.


Good point.

Not long ago, I was really looking at the 055 legs with that centre column....but since then I've expanded my knowledge of high end tripod use and what most people are saying, is that you shouldn't use the centre column at all....even if it's just straight up from the tripod...it just reduced the stability of the camera too much.  
So that means buying a tripod that will go as high and as low as you need, without using the centre column.


----------



## analog.universe (Feb 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> Better are tripods where the middle column removes and a low height head is bolted pretty much right to the base of the legs itself. That works far better for low angle shooting - I think there is a newer 055 series that has this feature. Gitzo also use this feature



Gitzo does have this kit available, but I find it's even easier to simply take the center column out, and reinstall it upside down so the camera "hangs" from the tripod.  That way you don't need to carry the extra bolt, or remount the head.  I can get the flash shoe to touch the ground with this setup if need be.


----------



## Overread (Feb 27, 2012)

Upside down is possible and I've seen/heard a few using that method - I don't like it myself, but I've not experimented all that much with it honestly. I think for it to work its one of those times that the flippy tilty LCD would really come into its own (or an angle finder on the viewfinder).


----------



## analog.universe (Feb 27, 2012)

For sure, that is one of the situations where I really enjoy my flippy tilty screen.  (even though I thought it would be useless when I bought the camera)


----------



## DorkSterr (Feb 27, 2012)

Do you travel a lot? If so I'd highly recommend the Gitzo 1542T. You can't really rule out a tripod when doing photography.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for all of the input.  Seriously.  You did it!  Talked me out of the 058/222  

I've pulled the trigger on the following:

Feisol CT-3472 Elite
Feisol LB-7572 Leveling Base
Really Right Stuff BH-55LR
 
It might not adjust "_*quite*_" as fast as the Manfrotto 058/222, but I think it'll do just fine and give me a LOT more flexibility for other forms of photography.

I do know myself: By this time tomorrow, Buyer's Remorse will have set in.  That'll be replaced with perma-grin as I remove things from shipping boxes, and based on all of the feedback here and elsewhere, I think I'll find myself pretty happy with the purchase.

Thanks again


----------



## mjhoward (Feb 27, 2012)

WhiskeyTango said:


> The 058B/222 combo would absolutely rock for portraiture in a controlled environment, but is far from ideal for my other interests...



If it were me, I'd skip it.  First things first, that is one heavy a$$ tripod.  The other thing I do not like is the way the spreaders lock.  We have the 161MK2B which is a very similar design, and the spreaders have a slot cut in it that runs for it's length.  On the inside of this tube is a threaded brass insert and on the outside is the larger diameter tube with the thumb screw. The problem is, over time, tightening this thumb screw will eventually pull the brass insert through the slot.  After many times of doing this, it becomes increasingly more difficult to tighten the legs because the slot has now opened enough that the thumb screw only tightens against the brass insert and doesn't have enough friction against the tube to keep the legs from moving.  Hopefully this makes sense because it is hard to describe without photos.


----------



## chuasam (Feb 27, 2012)

The 222 is rubbish. I have one. Instead you should get a 3 way pan head for proper portraiture.


----------



## chuasam (Feb 27, 2012)

DorkSterr said:


> Do you travel a lot? If so I'd highly recommend the Gitzo 1542T. You can't really rule out a tripod when doing photography.


I have the old 1541T. I love it. But I rarely use a tripod unless I'm doing a plate shot. For most instances, a beanbag is sufficiently stable.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Feb 28, 2012)

BTW...

Thanks to everyone for all the input.  Now if UPS would just hurry up already!  lol


----------



## zamanakhan (Feb 29, 2012)

i'll talk you out of it, but only to support a purchase of even more expensive one.


----------



## DiskoJoe (Mar 1, 2012)

manfrotto is good but gitzo is usually better. If I had the cash I would get a gitzo. You can buy more then one if you need to also.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Mar 1, 2012)

DiskoJoe said:


> manfrotto is good but gitzo is usually better. If I had the cash I would get a gitzo. You can buy more then one if you need to also.



Yeah, the "buy more than one" thing occurred to me, especially given the relatively low cost of the 058 legs in the first place.

We'll see.  I'll have the Feisol legs today and my ball head on Monday .  Somehow I think I'll be happy, but if not, I can always get the 058 for "studio" work at home and use the Feisol for everything else.


----------



## paigew (Mar 1, 2012)

I watched the webinar too and now have a very expensive wish list hahaha.


----------



## FSJeffo (Mar 1, 2012)

Watching with interest. I was trying a few indoor flower shots the other day, but the droop on my old Optek tripod was driving me nuts. I was about to order a Manfrotto 055 (the ProB with the horizontal feature), but this thread made me want to go fondle a bunch before deciding what I wanted. I'm going to be in Edmonton next week anyway, so I'm going to head into McBain and look at what they have.

By the way - Big Mike, it was one of your posts that first put me onto McBain. If I tell them 'Big Mike sent me' will they know it's you that gets credit? lol

JM


----------



## Big Mike (Mar 1, 2012)

From what I've been reading/hearing, Gitzo does have very good equipment, but it's typically overpriced.  
There are other brands with high end gear, that don't as much of a premium price.   Which is probably why he got the Feisol.

I would have gone for a Carbon Fiber model though.  

But, yes...after digging into the world of tripods...my wishlist is now very pricey too.  :er:


----------



## Big Mike (Mar 1, 2012)

FSJeffo said:


> Watching with interest. I was trying a few indoor flower shots the other day, but the droop on my old Optek tripod was driving me nuts. I was about to order a Manfrotto 055 (the ProB with the horizontal feature), but this thread made me want to go fondle a bunch before deciding what I wanted. I'm going to be in Edmonton next week anyway, so I'm going to head into McBain and look at what they have.
> 
> By the way - Big Mike, it was one of your posts that first put me onto McBain. If I tell them 'Big Mike sent me' will they know it's you that gets credit? lol
> 
> JM


Well, if you go into the main store, on 107th ave...my Friend Gregg works there...although, I don't think he does much in terms of sales these days.  
If you're going to go there, it's only half a block south to Vistek, the other big camera store in Edmonton.  
You could also visit Don's Photo (West end or South Side), they have a decent selection of tripods.  
I wouldn't bother with any of the satellite McBain locations.  They have tripods, but not much of a selection.  Heck, even the main store doesn't have all that much, if I remember correctly.  Mostly Manfrotto and a few from Slik & Velbon.  
The Camera Store, in Calgary, has a much better selection.  

On that note, if you are going to buy from McBain, make sure that you search for prices at other stores in Canada.  McBain (and Vistek, I think) will price match to other stores in Canada (real stores, not just internet sites).  I usually check the price at The Camera Store, then have McBain match it.  

And if you're been following this thread, you may be interested in something better than what you'll find and these stores.  Check out Really Right Stuff, Arcatech, Kirk etc.


----------



## FSJeffo (Mar 1, 2012)

All great advice, thanks Mike. Very much appreciated, I'll let you know how it goes.

JM


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Mar 1, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> From what I've been reading/hearing, Gitzo does have very good equipment, but it's typically overpriced.
> There are other brands with high end gear, that don't as much of a premium price.   Which is probably why he got the Feisol.
> 
> I would have gone for a Carbon Fiber model though.
> ...


 
If by "he," you mean me, I did get a carbon fiber model.  It showed up on my doorstep at lunch today, and...  wow.  That thing is sweet.  It feels incredibly well made.  Fit and finish is outstanding.

Sadly, I won't be able to really start playing with it until Monday when the ball head should show up.

I got the Feisol in large part due to the mention in this thread and subsequent research on my part.  It was substantially less expensive than a comparable Gitzo, and I couldn't find a single disparaging review anywhere.  In fact, everything I read was glowing.


----------



## Redeyejedi (Mar 1, 2012)

i have never seen a more applicable use of the age-old-adage, 'you get what you pay for' than with legs & head. i thought a $300 combo was pricey. then i read the hogan article. then i rewired my thinking into $300 is entry level. then after buying an "entry-level" tripod, and all the associated instability issues, i deeply regret the purchase for my desired uses. tripod use for macro is a personal choice; some greatly prefer versatility of handheld, other the stability of legs - me. but the one i bought makes composing a fustercluck of a job with sag/creep/droop/shakiness/stability. feature wise, it's on par, but i should have gotten a decent head for $300. 
agree with the reputable, quality brands mentioned, where i will soon be, after my money tree blooms, and i give the current legs away.
note: carbon legs can be less stiff, but are lighter and don't get as cold as aluminium. can also get legs covers for alu for cold climates(metal gets cold and moving it around gets old). [/.02]


----------



## Big Mike (Mar 1, 2012)

> If by "he," you mean me, I did get a carbon fiber model.


My bad.  I searched "Feisol CT-3472 Elite" and came up with this...NEW FEISOL Elite Tripod CT-3472 Rapid
and read this...


> The CT-3472 Rapid inherits all the superior specifications of our tournament grade tripods. Its high grade CNC precision-milled 6061 T6 _aluminum_ solid block construction offers a remarkably lightweight yet highly durable design intended for large capacity loads.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Mar 1, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> > If by "he," you mean me, I did get a carbon fiber model.
> 
> 
> My bad.  I searched "Feisol CT-3472 Elite" and came up with this...NEW FEISOL Elite Tripod CT-3472 Rapid
> ...


 
Gotcha.  Yeah, the base is definitely aluminum.  The legs, however are carbon fiber.  Having re-read the web page you linked, though, I'm not sure how I'd know that if I hadn't just taken it out of the box an hour ago...  lol


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Mar 1, 2012)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Thanks for all of the input.  Seriously.  You did it!  Talked me out of the 058/222
> 
> I've pulled the trigger on the following:
> 
> ...



So, I circled back around and saw this post a few days back. Glad to see you took my advice!  You'll have to post again once you've played with your new Feisol!  I'd love to hear your take on 'em...


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Mar 5, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> WhiskeyTango said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for all of the input.  Seriously.  You did it!  Talked me out of the 058/222
> ...



So, by way of an update:

I've finally gotten everything in my hands.  I am extremely impressed.

The Feisol tripod is rock solid.  I can actually hear the air being forced out and/or drawn in as I extend and retract the legs.  The leveling head was a breeze to install, and even simpler to use.  There is nothing about this thing that feels cheap.

The RRS ball head is a work of art.  I've designed, built, and installed automated production equipment for the automotive industry for 15+ years.  This thing is sick.  I'd love to see the engineering drawings behind this.

On top of that, customer service at RRS was well beyond my expectations.

I'm at the start point of my learning curve with this rig, but my initial impressions lead me to believe I'm going to be happy for a very long time.


----------



## pgriz (Mar 5, 2012)

Mind if I copy you?  My Manfrotto 55BX tripod and 222 head are feeling very, um, amateurish.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Mar 6, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Mind if I copy you?  My Manfrotto 55BX tripod and 222 head are feeling very, um, amateurish.


 
Of course not!

Now there is a little matter of my finder's fee, and annual royalties...  but we can discuss that later.


----------



## bazooka (Mar 6, 2012)

Does anyone know of a study (online) that compares images taken with different quality tripods/heads? I have a $450 setup and have been very happy with it for 2 years now... makes me wonder what I'm missing out on?

Manfrotto 055CXPRO3
Manfrotto 322RC2


----------



## Overread (Mar 6, 2012)

A lot of the differences are not just in stability, they are also in things like weight and resistance to damage (eg I think Gitzo does a special sealed range for coast work where salt water can be a nightmare for tripods). Light weight and stable also ups the price on a tripod a lot over one that is heavier, but just as stable. 

For what its worth the most stable that counter most vibrations are the heavy wooden tripods (which are stable, expensive and heavy...). I forget which between aluminium and carbon fibre but one of those two can carry vibrations worse than the other.


----------



## analog.universe (Mar 6, 2012)

Overread said:


> A lot of the differences are not just in stability, they are also in things like weight and resistance to damage (eg I think Gitzo does a special sealed range for coast work where salt water can be a nightmare for tripods). Light weight and stable also ups the price on a tripod a lot over one that is heavier, but just as stable.
> 
> For what its worth the most stable that counter most vibrations are the heavy wooden tripods (which are stable, expensive and heavy...). I forget which between aluminium and carbon fibre but one of those two can carry vibrations worse than the other.



That vibration stuff quickly gets complicated, and it's not always that wood > carbon > aluminum or some other order.  The geometry of the design, how the aluminum is extruded, how the carbon is layered, what kind of hardware connects it all, etc.. are all relevant.

You could have the same mass of aluminum in two legs of the same length, but if one has a narrower diameter and thicker wall, it will have different strength and vibration characteristics.


----------



## bazooka (Mar 6, 2012)

But in a practical IQ sense, does a $300 manfrotto setup result in a less sharp image than a $1000 gitzo? The weight and features of my tripod do not bother me (probably because I've not had anything better). I'm quite happy with it. I am, however, very concerned with getting the absolute sharpest image.


----------



## analog.universe (Mar 6, 2012)

bazooka said:


> But in a practical IQ sense, does a $300 manfrotto setup result in a less sharp image than a $1000 gitzo? The weight and features of my tripod do not bother me (probably because I've not had anything better). I'm quite happy with it. I am, however, very concerned with getting the absolute sharpest image.



There are probably more variables involved in answering that...

I would guess that with certain lenses, at certain shutter speeds, in certain climates, there will probably be no difference at all.  But if for some reason you're shooting at like 1/2sec with a 300mm lens in the wind, you may notice that the Gitzo serves you a little better.  I'm just speculating though, I don't really know about your manfrotto setup, maybe you'll never notice a difference, maybe you can a see a difference at 1/60 85mm in the studio.

With any pro gear, the price goes up a lot faster than the performance does.  So the difference between $200 and $300 for a tripod is probably more than the difference between $300 and $800.

Are there any images you've shot with your setup that you feel are not as sharp as they could be?  If you're not running into any problems then it's probably not worth worrying about the differences...


----------



## bazooka (Mar 6, 2012)

I haven't noticed any issues.  Most of my tripod work is done in the 20-100mm range.  I use mirror lock-up.  I usually use a remote or timer, etc...  

I mean, I can imagine someone shooting wildlife at 600mm needing a $1000 tripod and a $500 head, but I wonder if that article mentioned is really geared toward the wide-angle landscape shooter.... and if so, where are the images to prove it?  I've only seen "talk".  I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'd just like to see some actual images.


----------



## Geaux (Mar 6, 2012)

I recently got a Manfrotto 055xprob and 498RC2 head.  Might not be the priciest, but it was at the top of what I wanted to spend and its leaps and bounds better than the Best Buy 30 dollar junk I had before.  I went with Manfrotto so I could use my black rapid with it and not have to switch back and forth between plate on and off.


----------

