# BBC, should girls under 16 be allowed to model?



## newrmdmike (Jul 11, 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6290284.stm

i thought this was interesting. . . and agree that there is something wrong with the sexualization of these young girls.  i remember victoria secret hired a girl with dark hair, don't know her name . . . there was an article about her, they brought her on at age 16. . . she was their cover girl

a blanket statement of 'modeling' seems a bit broad to me, when really its usually the hardcore chic fashion industry that seems responsible for having young girls model in these provocative manners.  clothing STORES and such don't seem to be taking part in this.  If regulations are passed will it affect those stores ability to hire young women?

at any rate, there is nothing wrong with having someone monitor what is going on when they are working with minors.  WHY DON'T THESE KIDS PARENTS STEP IN?!!?!?!?!? i don't understand some people.


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## ERS1121 (Jul 11, 2007)

The parents won't step in because they see the paychecks coming in. It as simple as that.


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## mortallis288 (Jul 11, 2007)

on the TV show House M.D, there was this 15 year old model who got her father drunk and had sexual relations with him, just so that he could not stop her from doing what she was doing. It is just a t.v show but i am sure it still happens in real life, and all of the cases on House is true also.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 11, 2007)

mortallis288 said:


> on the TV show House M.D, there was this 15 year old model who got her father drunk and had sexual relations with him, just so that he could not stop her from doing what she was doing. It is just a t.v show but i am sure it still happens in real life, and all of the cases on House is true also.



They're all true?
Damn, I didn't know that.


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## Alex_B (Jul 11, 2007)

well, the problem here is not so much any sexualisation, but it is the really tough working conditions. If you start too young, the damage to your body (underweight, eating disorders,...) is much more irreversible..


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## newrmdmike (Jul 11, 2007)

i think they are both issues, working conditions are bad, and so is the idea of making 16 year olds fill the role of a 20 somthing woman.


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## Big Mike (Jul 11, 2007)

Depending on the location, (in the US, for example) there are strict laws about working conditions for minors.  I'm not sure if that is to the age of 18 or not.

For example, just the other day I was watching an actor being interviewed and he was playing a father in a movie.  All his scenes were with the young girl playing his daughter.  He said it was much less work that normal because there are strict rules/laws about how much the girl was allowed to work.

I would assume that the same goes for models...although, the hours worked would probably be the least of their worries.  

I agree, there seems to be something wrong with having rather young girls looking the part of older women...in a sexual manor.  It's a fine line though...there are plenty of perfectly legitimate modeling jobs for kids of all ages.


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## RMThompson (Jul 11, 2007)

Its very interesting that you brought that up. It's no secret I do modeling work, for their portfolio mostly, and recently I came across a 16 year old girl doing... implied nudity.

Now, nothing was really showing, but still it bothered me. She contacted me about possibly working with her, so instead of just spouting prices, I asked her a few questions, this is a basic recap of my conversation with her:

Her: I love your work, what are your rates?
Me: They vary depending on time and what you are looking to do. Let me ask you, what kind of modeling are you trying to break into?
Her: Well, since I am only almost 17, I can't do anything nude or anything, so just regular fashion stuff, I dunno.
Me: Well, what about when your older, is this something you want to make a career out of? 
Her: Maybe. I will probably be stripping when I am 18 so I dont think Id have a problem with doing nude work then, if that's what you mean.

...

I was floored. She had no idea what modeling types were other than "nude" and "non-nude"... she hadn't researched anything other than starting a profile and people asking her to model....I mean, if this isn't a road to x-rated work, I don't know what is. This girl is very pretty too, probably could make it as a model somewhere, but I kept thinking.. "Where are her parents"? She is ASPIRING to strip? I mean, no offense to the lovely ladies of poledancing, but I doubt many of them wanted to do that at age 16.

So I decided I won't shoot with her. I don't know why though, I mean as long I am not doing anything overly sexy with her, and she is clothed, I don't see why I couldn't, but I just felt uncomfortable. 

Maybe I am wrong... maybe I feel like that since I have an 11 year daughter whose into Barbies and I can't even IMAGINE her wanting to do this at age 16... I dunno.


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## Mike_E (Jul 11, 2007)

If you look at it from a Capitalistic point of view then you would see that if there were no demand for young girls modeling then there would be no need to supply that need.

In other words it is we as a society which is to blame for this along with the human propensity to overdo anything that we think of as good or enjoyable.

So, instead of walking off shaking your head, voice your opinion on the spot when you see something that bothers you.  And if it really bothers you (we're talking about "The Media" and the advertisers and companies that pay them here), write an old fashion paper and pen letter.  For every 10,000 people who feel strongly about something only 1 or 2 will take the time to write.  If you do in fact write a letter then your opinion is worth that of 5,00-10,000 people in someone's eyes .

mike

RM, you jumped in there ahead of me and this was not directed at you personally.  (I wouldn't have done it either though I would have told her why and asked her to explore her options and to get back with me after to see if she had thought it through and come to a better conclusion)


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## newrmdmike (Jul 11, 2007)

thank god you didn't choose to photograph her.

thats asking for trouble.  and would say alot about you that none of us would want to hear!


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## Alex_B (Jul 11, 2007)

RMThompson said:


> Maybe I am wrong... maybe I feel like that since I have an 11 year daughter whose into Barbies and I can't even IMAGINE her wanting to do this at age 16... I dunno.



Hmm, I do not want to scare you, and of course it depends on where you live, but some of today's girls have even more extreme ideas at even younger ages than 16.


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## NJMAN (Jul 11, 2007)

I dont want this to spawn into a morality debate, but I'm afraid the further down the road we get, the more we will see families showing more liberal behavior in this area, especially when you have lazy parents who don't think or care about what their kids are doing, and also when so much of this stuff is on the internet. If its out there, and its common, some people just automatically assume its okay or acceptable.

I for one am very big on setting an example for my kids (all of them under 10 years of age), and letting them know that its okay to be moral and to ask questions about certain controversial issues. I also try to teach them to know what is decent and what is not decent at certain ages, but also at any age.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 11, 2007)

Alex_B said:


> but some of today's girls have even more extreme ideas at even younger ages than 16.



Yes, but we (us good-hearted, right-thinking photo guys) should not be enabling those ideas.


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## Alex_B (Jul 11, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> Yes, but we (us good-hearted, right-thinking photo guys) should not be enabling those ideas.



No, I wasn't saying that we should support this. I was just trying to say that there is alot happening out there, which some of us cannot imagine since we live in our small and harmonic (at least in some respects) world.

Especially parents should be aware of this, without getting paranoid of course.


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## NJMAN (Jul 11, 2007)

RMThompson said:


> Its very interesting that you brought that up. It's no secret I do modeling work, for their portfolio mostly, and recently I came across a 16 year old girl doing... implied nudity.
> 
> Now, nothing was really showing, but still it bothered me. She contacted me about possibly working with her, so instead of just spouting prices, I asked her a few questions, this is a basic recap of my conversation with her:
> 
> ...


 
Also, this might have been a good opportunity to let her know that there are many types of "clothes-on" modeling for girls her age.  It could have made her start thinking about how many other options may be available to her.  16 year olds can be quite naive (as you have indicated), and I think some proper enlightenment would have been refreshing for her.


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## RMThompson (Jul 11, 2007)

NJMAN, you are correct. I think I will take the opportunity to at least direct her to some decent modeling websites, and let her know there is more to modeling than taking your clothes off.

One thing I forgot to mention... her portfolio also had a few shots, seemingly semi-professionally shot, of bloody murder/suicide scenes. Things like her in a bathtub covered in blood... things that even as an ADULT I find disgusting.


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## newrmdmike (Jul 11, 2007)

its so strange to me that so many girls get into that, when the difference in the amount of money from mainstream legitimate old fashion modeling jobs is so great!

i personally know philip warner, and apnea, have been to their house and what not . . . they are at the top of the industry, but not wealthy.

i also know a girl modeling in new york, and working as an intern for some fashion company who makes enough money to live quite comfortably in nyc, downtown.

it strikes me as an odd choice, but i guess thats just something some people are into, regardless of pay.


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## Big Mike (Jul 11, 2007)

I think it comes down to availability and hard work.  Good paying, mainstream modeling jobs don't grow on tress and take hard work and dedication.  But if a girl is willing to take her clothes off for money...she won't have to go very far for work...even if it's low paying...as someone said, blame society for this...not necessarily the girl.

It's also environment...maybe this girl in question lives in a community that is more isolated from the broad spectrum of modeling work.  Maybe the only people that she knows, that have made any money modeling...are strippers...so that's naturally what she aspires to.  It's almost like little kids growing up in a bad neighborhood...the most impressive and influential people they see are drug dealers...so that's what they aspire to.

Another thing that still gets me...is our societies inability to separate nudity from sexuality.  It's practically automatic that when people see nudity, they think sex and then all the alarm bells start going off.  I don't have a problem with nude photography...although I agree with an age restriction...but there is a big difference between nude photography and seductive photography and porn.


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## RMThompson (Jul 11, 2007)

Big Mike, you are somewhat correct about the nude form and sex... but it's a natural instinct, not a transgression of society.

The simple fact is that nude bodies remind us, instincually, about mating, and that rings certain bells in the brain. Even nude art, while not overly sexual in nature can still be considered "sensual" or "erotic" if nothing else. Hell a lot of what I DO falls into that category.

You are correct, sex sells, in more than just modeling though, so these girls see a quick way to make a few bucks. I wouldn't have had much of a problem if she would've said "I aspire to make amazing nude art"... which would've at least indicated that she had some idea on what forms of modeling their are and whats available for her.


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## Big Mike (Jul 11, 2007)

Your right...it is a natural progression...but I just wish it wasn't so immediate.

Look at nude beaches, nudist colonies and even more 'liberal' countries around the world.  There are plenty of places where people are nude in public and that doesn't mean they are having or selling sex.  Our society, by trying to hide the human body...has made it something to desire...maybe more than it should be.  It is, IMO, one of the greatest examples of true 'art'.

I agree with you...and think you did the right thing.


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## Garbz (Jul 11, 2007)

What scares me more than the nude/non-nude debate is what actually happens to these models even if they don't end up in the nude / xrated camp. Australian models are now required to have a minimum BodyMass Index, I think on the lowest end of healthy or something like BMI of 18? The very first thing our models got labelled internationally is "overweight". I don't get this one of my sister's friends has a BMI lower than 18, and it is unattractively thin. In fact I think there's a lot of models who could do with a few extra kilos just so you don't see their ugly bones.

I believe this is an internationally growing debate, especially among catwalk models, but imagine how this applies to a minor. These are people who can easily be influenced by the actions of the people around them, and I can see this causing belimia and other physical not to mention mental health issues.


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## craig (Jul 11, 2007)

I think 16 is slightly young to be getting into a grown up profession. Generally speaking your decision making skills are non existent at that age. The machine will chew you up and spit you out if you are not careful. Kind of dangerous emotionally and physically. A BMI index sounds like a good idea, but I do not know enough about the industry to have a view on that. 

I agree that it is society that made these rules surface. If we were not perverts maybe we could have a little more creative freedom. That is a whole other story. 

Love & Bass


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## Chas (Jul 11, 2007)

RMThompson said:


> Big Mike, you are somewhat correct about the nude form and sex... but it's a natural instinct, not a transgression of society.


True, but I see it Big Mike's way. The separation of nudity from sexuality is highly culturally determined, that much is clear. I was brought up in England and am therefore just hopeless at it myself. But I had a dutch girlfriend once as an impetuous youth and spent some time in Holland - peoples' attitudes to nudity there (in its proper place) are different, and I mean really very different. I envy them their naturalism (or is it naturism?).

So, in our culture, it must be very hard or next-to-impossible for a man or woman to separate out nudity from the other in a photo session - but I suppose it can be done. For someone aged 16, forget about it! What would the majority of studio pros say I wonder?


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## Sw1tchFX (Jul 12, 2007)

RMThompson said:


> Its very interesting that you brought that up. It's no secret I do modeling work, for their portfolio mostly, and recently I came across a 16 year old girl doing... implied nudity.
> 
> Now, nothing was really showing, but still it bothered me. She contacted me about possibly working with her, so instead of just spouting prices, I asked her a few questions, this is a basic recap of my conversation with her:
> 
> ...


 
IMO, That's a perfect reason you should use her as a model. I don't know what you shoot for a living, but for the sake of argument, lets say you do commercial catalouge assignments. You can use her in that and keep using her to try and PREVENT her from selling her body with sex. You can show her OTHER forms of modeling work, and when she turns 18, use her in _fine art_ nudes.


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