# Am I a professional photographer...?



## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Lets put together a list of questions you can ask yourself to see if you are a professional or not.

First off I do not consider myself professional so take my questions with a grain of salt.

1. Do I know what lens I'd use in any given situation?
2. Do I know how to use basic lighting tools?
3. Can I utilize lighting tools to enhance my photos?
4. Do I have a basic understanding of contracts and the business aspect of photography?
5. Am I insured?
6. Is my Equipment insured?
7. Can I properly pose a single person and large groups?


That's all I got. Lets hear from the real Pros here and maybe we can sticky this thread.


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

LOL I passed.. whew thought maybe I would not make it.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

I think a title for these questions would be, am I an expert photographer. 

A professional photographer is someone who collects money for their photos.
They can have less than half of that list checked off and still be considered a pro. 

Beyond that, questions like number 3, 6 and 7 aren't universal. 
Think about sports photographers that don't own their own equipment, don't use flash and has never posed a person in their life.


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

^^^^ Don't take him seriously ...he is from Maine


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 6. Is my Equipment insured?



How does this make you professional? Anyone can do this but it won't make them a professional. I even bet there are some professionals that don't have insurance.

I have insurance on my musical instruments (guitar and mandolin) but I'm hardly a professional. I just want the protection that insurance provides.

I'm not trying to start an arguement about this list because those are really good questions. I just question this one item being on there.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

Mully said:


> ^^^^ Don't take him seriously ...he is from Maine



It's still fun to play along  .

Think about it though. Photography is an art. Besides the business aspect of it, you can take bland pictures and still be considered on of the greatest photographers in the world.
Hell, this is the most expensive photograph ever made - Google Image Result for http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/andreas-gursky-rhine-II-most-expensive-photograph.jpg


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Again I am not a pro, I am just culling from what I see on here every other week.

Feel free to add your own questions.


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## gsgary (Mar 8, 2013)

A pro is someone who gets paid more than 50% of their annual income


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah, I'm not a pro either. (heck sometimes I question if I am a hobbyist.) I just love to take pictures and learn about photography.


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

gsgary said:


> A pro is someone who gets paid more than 50% of their annual income



I get paid 100% of my annual income.. less taxes and insurance and retirement... :lmao:  Just none of that is from photography.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Again I am not a pro, I am just culling from what I see on here every other week.
> 
> Feel free to add your own questions.



So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?


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## gsgary (Mar 8, 2013)

You dont even have to be a good photographer to be pro


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## weepete (Mar 8, 2013)

Quite clearly the only question should be "Do you own a DSLR?"


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## mishele (Mar 8, 2013)

Facebook page is a true sign.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?



Are you thick?

This is the third time I am going to say this. I am not a pro, I am pulling questions I see posted on here on a weekly basis.

Do I need to draw you a picture?


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## mishele (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Do I need to draw you a picture?


Somebody is cranky.


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## Rob99 (Mar 8, 2013)

I passed, what do I win?


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

Rob99 said:


> I passed, what do I win?



Good question. Maybe we can convince Mish to post a bigger copy of her picture for 10 minutes so that all the winners can day dream


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## pjwarneka (Mar 8, 2013)

Runnah, 

I see what you are trying to do.  Your list will be long and scrutiny to opinion, but might still be worth doing if it helps you. 
 As you see, Photography is in a strange niche,  Accountants, lawyers and Doctors have a national process used to separate "pro" from student = CPA, Bar and Med License. most service industries has some sort of accreditation. We do not have a universal measurement to show which photographers are pro or not.  If you make cakes or sell tires 99.5% of the time you have to have a store front of some sort.  PHotography is part service, part product, part art!     It will be interesting to see what people list as needed to be considered pro.   See if any of it helps you make sense of it.


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## pjwarneka (Mar 8, 2013)

OK,  I've got one for your list.

Do you treat this like a business or not?


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

mishele said:


> runnah said:
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> > Do I need to draw you a picture?
> ...



I don't know how much clearer I can be...hence my frustration.


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

I thought this thread was to be light and all in fun but I see some take this all too serious...they need to join the ASMP


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## mishele (Mar 8, 2013)

ronlane said:


> Rob99 said:
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> > I passed, what do I win?
> ...


My avatar picture? lol


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

Yes


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

Nice try Mish....at least you tried


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Mully said:


> I thought this thread was to be light and all in fun but I see some take this all too serious...they need to join the ASMP



Who me?


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## snowbear (Mar 8, 2013)

Here you go (from an amateur)

Do I have the required licensing?
Am I paying or filing the required taxes?


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

^^^^^^  NO...LOL you are not serious enough


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## mishele (Mar 8, 2013)




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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

mishele said:


> ronlane said:
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> > Rob99 said:
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That's a photo of *HIS* wife.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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> > So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?
> ...



Go back, re-read my post that you replied this nonsense too, then take another look, then once more to be totally sure. 



> _So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?_



Did I ask you if you were a pro?
Does being a pro have anything to do with what I asked you?




> I don't know how much clearer I can be...hence my frustration.



Well, you asked me 2 questions insulting my intelligence, meanwhile they have absolutely nothing to do with my contribution to this thread. 
I asked you if you thought those things defined a pro photographer on a universal level.

Your reply: 



> Are you thick?
> 
> This is the third time I am going to say this. I am not a pro, I am pulling questions I see posted on here on a weekly basis.
> 
> Do I need to draw you a picture?



Telling me your not a pro 3x doesn't answer the question I asked once.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

i think gsgary has the best answer. if over 50% of your income is generated thru photography then your a pro.  if your charging money but its less then 50% your a part time pro.


And just because your pro doesnt mean you know everthing,or that your even good.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


>



Ok I am sorry. I may have over reacted.

Yes I do think these thing I mentioned define a professional universally. 

If I were to consider myself a "Pro" racing driver would you call me a pro if I couldn't drive stick?

To me a pro should know answer yes to all those questions.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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Nothing better than a person that can not only admit that they may have been in the wrong, but apologizing as well. Apology graciously accepted. 




> Yes I do think these thing I mentioned define a professional universally.
> 
> If I were to consider myself a "Pro" racing driver would you call me a pro if I couldn't drive stick?



Yes, being that formula one racers do not use stick shifts, but semi-automatic transmission with paddle shifters. 



> To me a pro should know answer yes to all those questions.



Just for arguments sake, sports photographers, photojournalists, concert photographers that make their living from photography
while great at what they do, may be weak in other aspects of photography like posing or lighting.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

a pro photographer can be the best in his field at shooting race cars and autotive racing, but may absolutley suck at lighting, posing, and anything related to people.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> runnah said:
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Right but Sebastien Vettel could hop into a go kart or a golf kart and smoke anyone. As proven here. 





Maybe my definition of a pro is different than your but I would think that a "pro" could be dropped into any situation and still be able to take amazing photos.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> a pro photographer can be the best in his field at shooting race cars and autotive racing, but may absolutley suck at lighting, posing, and anything related to people.



Nope. 

The fundamentals of lighting, composition and technique are all the same. Granted they might not know the all the poses and lighting tricks but they should be able to deliver and crisp clean and well composed shot.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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Yeah, there are elite people in their profession. But there are also people that do what is required and nothing more. That's why I said expert vs pro. There are pros that are better than other pros.
Think about some of the greatest landscape photographers that do not use lighting equipment, or even people in their images.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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> > a pro photographer can be the best in his field at shooting race cars and autotive racing, but may absolutley suck at lighting, posing, and anything related to people.
> ...



No they aren't.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> runnah said:
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How are they not? Exposure, focus and composition are the few things that span all types of photography.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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> > a pro photographer can be the best in his field at shooting race cars and autotive racing, but may absolutley suck at lighting, posing, and anything related to people.
> ...




disagree 100%  if you have never needed to work with light, how do you work with lighting ratios and lighting equipment and a model and posing, quite possibly could be a disaster. would be like saying because you are a professional basketball player you should be pro at every sport, michael jordans baseball carreer points out that isn't the case.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> runnah said:
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I disagree with your disagreement!

Think of photography as cooking. Each dish has it's inspirations be them Asian, Mexican, or German. But each dish requires you to know fundamentals of cooking. You need to know how to boil and egg or cook a steak, or even chop veggies.

By your rational all sports photographers know how to do is put the camera on easy mode and just click away. You are saying that none of them know how to frame a shot or get proper exposure of focus?


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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These are subjective things and can be extremely different. Think about a landscape photographer that uses a 4x5 view camera. You think that he'd be able to wing a fashion photoshoot?


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


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I spend a lot of time watching cooking shows and cooking competions. and when it comes time to cook something they have never cooked before, that's usually when they wind up going home.   if all you do is shoot cars, shooting a model is a lot diffrent and a lot more then just being able to get the basics down. just because you know the basics of cooking does not mean you know how to cook a great meal across every nationality and food type. there are some types of seafood that if prepared wrong could poison you and kill you. would you trust eating them if you new they were prepared by a chef who speacalises in steaks and has never prepared this type of seafood?

I'm not saying that a sports photographer wouldn't know how to get good exposure or that she'd be half out of the frame. but there is a diffrence between taking an adequate shot of something, and taking a great shot.


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## KenC (Mar 8, 2013)

I agree that getting paid is central to the answer, much more than particular skills in different types of photography, because "professional" is almost universally defined that way, e.g., the former requirement that Olympic athletes not be professional required that they had not received any money for whatever sport they play in the Olympics.

However, I don't get the >50% requirement that's been stated here and in other threads on this subject.  Obviously, the percentage of income from photography depends on one's total income and how much they get from other pursuits.  So, if someone is independently wealthy, and even though they have a lucrative photography career, the income from it is still much less than from their trust fund, or whatever, are they not professional?  Or, if someone is paid only a little for photography and is considered a pretty bad photographer by their peers, but makes more than half their small income from photography, are they professional?  I don't know the answer to either of these questions and don't have a definition to offer, but I think it's more complicated than making more than half your income from it.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

This argument, one that comes up every few months usually falls into two categories,  Those who think professional means your getting paid to do it, taking paid jobs, which is how I define it. and the other side believes its about how good you are at what you do, as in you know most of what there is to know are qualified to do the job etc. Then to break it down further last time this argument came up we kinda broke things down to those that are doing this full time 40 hours a week which basically got tagged with the proffesional mark, and the "weekend warriors" who still had normal day jobs being tagged as semi-professional basically. hence the 51% of income versus the 49%


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> runnah said:
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Yes. 

You end up with a great photo of a model using natural light in a great landscape setting.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> I spend a lot of time watching cooking shows and cooking competions. and when it comes time to cook something they have never cooked before, that's usually when they wind up going home.   if all you do is shoot cars, shooting a model is a lot diffrent and a lot more then just being able to get the basics down. just because you know the basics of cooking does not mean you know how to cook a great meal across every nationality and food type. there are some types of seafood that if prepared wrong could poison you and kill you. would you trust eating them if you new they were prepared by a chef who speacalises in steaks and has never prepared this type of seafood?
> 
> I'm not saying that a sports photographer wouldn't know how to get good exposure or that she'd be half out of the frame. but there is a diffrence between taking an adequate shot of something, and taking a great shot.



And who normally wins those types of competitions?

The ones that can adapt their skills to to perform well no matter what the special ingredient may be.


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## Rick58 (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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> > So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?
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If you claim to be a pro, can you draw good pictures?


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

reminds me of the phrase jack of all trades, master of none.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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> 
> > I spend a lot of time watching cooking shows and cooking competions. and when it comes time to cook something they have never cooked before, that's usually when they wind up going home.   if all you do is shoot cars, shooting a model is a lot diffrent and a lot more then just being able to get the basics down. just because you know the basics of cooking does not mean you know how to cook a great meal across every nationality and food type. there are some types of seafood that if prepared wrong could poison you and kill you. would you trust eating them if you new they were prepared by a chef who speacalises in steaks and has never prepared this type of seafood?
> ...




so then that means the person who knows a little about everything is more pro then someone who is amazing at one type of photography.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> runnah said:
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No, its called adaptability. You can be great at one thing and still know how to do the other. That is how you survive as a professional. If you are only specialized in one aspect you had better be the best otherwise your market is going to dry up.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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one of the reasons people speacialize is so they can focus there efforts on being the best in that specific field. i'm just saying that doesnt mean they are going to be great in the other fields. will they be better then a good amatuer, most likely. but that doesnt mean they can compete on the same level as those that are speacializing in that other field. not every car photographer wants to shoot models, may not want to learn at all. may hate it. but that doesnt mean there not a professional. if they are out there shooting automotive racing full time and getting paid, there a professional. wether they can shoot a model or not.   

look at that guy last year who tried shooting the olympic atheletes. looking at those photos he looked like a rank amatuer, but come to find out, he was pretty skilled at the photography he did, he just wasn't good at shooting athletes. one guy who is a professional in his field, who did a terrible job trying to jump into a diffrent field of photography.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> runnah said:
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But how realistic is it to expect to be a paid professional and only shoot what you want? I know if I were to start a business here and only shoot professional models I'd fail in a week. I'd have to shoot weddings, babies, senior photo etc.. to survive financially.



12sndsgood said:


> look at that guy last year who tried shooting the olympic atheletes. looking at those photos he looked like a rank amatuer, but come to find out, he was pretty skilled at the photography he did, he just wasn't good at shooting athletes. one guy who is a professional in his field, who did a terrible job trying to jump into a diffrent field of photography.



Right but he at least knew enough to produce a decent photo. If I recall he borrowed gear and used a makeshift setup to get _something, _that is a true professional!


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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No if you saw a few of the shots you would have been shocked, I kid you not, my jaw dropped when I saw some of them.


As for the first part. generally when people get to the point of speacializing, they are good enought that that is all they have to do.  I know guys that only do weddings, I know guys that only shoot drifting events, guys that only shoot cars.

Sorry, I suck at the whole multi quote thing. lol.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> No if you saw a few of the shots you would have been shocked, I kid you not, my jaw dropped when I saw some of them.
> 
> As for the first part. generally when people get to the point of speacializing, they are good enought that that is all they have to do.  I know guys that only do weddings, I know guys that only shoot drifting events, guys that only shoot cars.
> 
> Sorry, I suck at the whole multi quote thing. lol.



Yeah they were pretty terrible and on a second viewing I take back my decent photo comment. But after reading the article again I saw that there was a photographer there that did get amazing photos in the given time and it was also her first time shooting such an event. So I guess it goes to show that she was the more professional of the two.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

I just consider it that when your getting paid for doing photos your a professional.  Now wether you are a good professional or a bad one is up to the individual. I used to just audio competition for sound quality and at times i'd have a shop built car come in that was just horrible, that the amauters there could beat it. but as far as everyone was concerned, he was a professional because he owned the shop and competed in the professional ranks.  its just one of those terms that diffrent people view diffrent ways.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> I just consider it that when your getting paid for doing photos your a professional.  Now wether you are a good professional or a bad one is up to the individual. I used to just audio competition for sound quality and at times i'd have a shop built car come in that was just horrible, that the amauters there could beat it. but as far as everyone was concerned, he was a professional because he owned the shop and competed in the professional ranks.  its just one of those terms that diffrent people view diffrent ways.



I guess that is what it comes down to. We each define professional differently.


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## rexbobcat (Mar 8, 2013)

That's why I try to be equally "meh" at everything instead of good at one thing and terrible at everything else.

Mediocrity what what? 

Be jealous.


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## kundalini (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> disagree 100% if you have never needed to work with light, how do you work ......



I ended the quote there because if you've never worked with light then you have folders on your computer filled with black rectangles.  Without light, photography doesn't exist.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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Let's not play coy here.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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> 
> > I spend a lot of time watching cooking shows and cooking competions. and when it comes time to cook something they have never cooked before, that's usually when they wind up going home.   if all you do is shoot cars, shooting a model is a lot diffrent and a lot more then just being able to get the basics down. just because you know the basics of cooking does not mean you know how to cook a great meal across every nationality and food type. there are some types of seafood that if prepared wrong could poison you and kill you. would you trust eating them if you new they were prepared by a chef who speacalises in steaks and has never prepared this type of seafood?
> ...



You're comparing apples to oranges here, and it's getting convoluted. 

You said that techniques/composition/exposure is identical no matter what facet of photography.

And you are also contradicting yourself. Very recently you said that only those experienced in wedding photography should shoot weddings.

It's obviously going to come down to a agree to disagree argument, but knowing how to pose someone when you are a photojournalist is irrelevant,
just like not knowing how to use a flash when you only use natural light doesn't eliminate you from the professional atmosphere.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> i think gsgary has the best answer. if over 50% of your income is generated thru photography then your a pro.  if your charging money but its less then 50% your a part time pro.
> 
> And just because your pro doesnt mean you know everthing,or that your even good.



Funny... I know some "PRO's" that make 100% of "their" income from photography, and I STILL don't consider them PRO's! Of course they would starve, if their husbands divorced them!  So I don't think that definition works either.....


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## Pallycow (Mar 8, 2013)

I'd say if you make your living off of your photography, you are considered as such.

Too many are trying to distinguish the word professional and good.  Two different things.  Being good doesn't make you a pro and being a pro doesn't make you good.

period.

oh..and I like turtles.


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## DiskoJoe (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Lets put together a list of questions you can ask yourself to see if you are a professional or not.
> 
> First off I do not consider myself professional so take my questions with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...



Did you get paid? 

Thats really the only one that matter?


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## DiskoJoe (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
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> > So do you feel that these questions define a professional photographer on a universal level?
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Draw us a self portrait. I bet you know what a dick looks like.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

DiskoJoe said:


> Draw us a self portrait. I bet you know what a dick looks like.



Touché.


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## Pallycow (Mar 8, 2013)

I just saw "dick" and "touch"

now I'm horny


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Pallycow said:


> I'd say if you make your living off of your photography, you are considered as such.
> 
> Too many are trying to distinguish the word professional and good.  Two different things.  Being good doesn't make you a pro and being a pro doesn't make you good.
> 
> ...



Yeah things got out of hand here.


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## Pallycow (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Pallycow said:
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What's funny is those who thought you were serious.  I took the entire post as sarcasm from the begining.  lol


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## snowbear (Mar 8, 2013)

The difference in opinions on the definition of a "pro" is interesting.  In a number of jurisdictions here, the term "career firefighter" replaced "professional firefighter" to differentiate between those that get paid and the volunteers.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

It started out as a scathing commentary on some of the self proclaimed pros, then turned serious for a bit and now back to scathing.


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## snowbear (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> It started out as a scathing commentary on some of the self proclaimed pros, then turned serious for a bit and now back to scathing.



Oh - you forgot about having a nice, big, distracting watermark.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

snowbear said:


> The difference in opinions on the definition of a "pro" is interesting.  In a number of jurisdictions here, the term "career firefighter" replaced "professional firefighter" to differentiate between those that get paid and the volunteers.



SO the volunteers are "perfessionals" even though they don't get paid? hmmmmmm!


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Pallycow said:


> I'd say if you make your living off of your photography, you are considered as such.
> 
> Too many are trying to distinguish the word professional and good.  Two different things.  Being good doesn't make you a pro and being a pro doesn't make you good.
> 
> ...



Are those that lack the *prerequisite professional knowledge* still professionals, even if they do get paid?  The definition below does not include the classic (and stupid) "if you get paid" definition....

*Definition* of a PROFESSIONAL

 The main criteria for professionals include the following:


*Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practising professionally*.[SUP][7][/SUP] 
*Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.*[SUP][8][/SUP] 
*High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services,  presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative,  marketing, photography or other work endeavours.* 
*A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work  activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee,  self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or  partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher  duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a  duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to  pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required  to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.* 
*Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to  do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are  important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.* 
*Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues.  Consideration should be shown to elderly, junior or inexperienced  colleagues, as well as those with special needs. An example must be set  to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.* 
*A professional is an expert who is a master in a specific field.* 

Professional - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Pallycow said:
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> > I'd say if you make your living off of your photography, you are considered as such.
> ...



It also says: 

*A **professional is a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood; such as a permanent career, not as an amateur or pastime.

*


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

> _Are those that lack the prerequisite professional knowledge still professionals, even if they do get paid?_



Yes. It doesn't go into specifics of photography, but it does sports - 



> The term "professional" is commonly used incorrectly when referring to sports, as the distinction simply refers to how the athlete is funded, and not necessarily competitions or achievements



I think the same can be said about photography.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Pallycow said:
> ...



True... and how many of the "Quasi PROs" can actually support themselves on what they earn, at $50 sessions, and a cd with 500 un-edited images on it? Hardly a PERMANENT career... lol!

I, for one... consider the other definitions a true definition of professional... especially the knowledge, demeanor, and quality of work! The "PAID" aspect has been diluted too much to be considered a valid aspect (IMO)!


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

I still am not convinced that getting paid for something is the only prerequisite to becoming a pro.

I used to work at a deli and got paid so I am a professional chef. I got paid to deliver newspapers so I am a journalist. I got paid to mow lawns so I am a professional landscaper.

I can go on but I think my point has been made.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> I still am not convinced that getting paid for something is the only prerequisite to becoming a pro.
> 
> I used to work at a deli and got paid so I am a professional chef. I got paid to deliver newspapers so I am a journalist. I got paid to mow lawns so I am a professional landscaper.
> 
> I can go on but I think my point has been made.



I agree... it is ridiculous! I guess that 13 year old babysitter is a professional (because she got PAID!)


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> I agree... it is ridiculous! I guess that 13 year old babysitter is a professional (because she got PAID!)



Right! If these people only requirements are "receives payments for service" to be called professional it makes me wonder how they pick doctors, lawyers, real estate agents, mechanics and so on.

I might add that you can give me money and I will claim to be a professional in any field you want.


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree... it is ridiculous! I guess that 13 year old babysitter is a professional (because she got PAID!)
> ...



Is that the requirements for a hooker to be a professional and not a slut??


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



I recently did some research on wedding photography and came across a local wedding photographer a town over from me, who is quite successful, and quite popular. I checked out his facebook page and saw a dozen or so positive comments about how good his company is and how much these clients love their photos. Looking at his photos I heard myself saying for the first time "I can do better than that". Because I can. This guys photos were horrible. Flat our horrible. Crooked, bad WB, bad exposure, direct flash, etc. His BBB is clean. 0 complains in 3 years.

Because he does very well, has a large following, and returning clients, but is horrible at photography, is he not a professional photographer?


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## table1349 (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> I still am not convinced that getting paid for something is the only prerequisite to becoming a pro.


 Au contraire there Pierre.



> I used to work at a deli and got paid so I am a professional chef


No, but you were a professional counter person/waiter.



> I got paid to deliver newspapers so I am a journalist.


No, but you were a professional paper thrower.



> I got paid to mow lawns so I am a professional landscaper.


No, but you were a proffesional grass cutter.



> I can go on but I think my point has been made.


You might have been those other thing you mentioned, if you had stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.:lmao:


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> I recently did some research on wedding photography and came across a local wedding photographer a town over from me, who is quite successful, and quite popular. I checked out his facebook page and saw a dozen or so positive comments about how good his company is and how much these clients love their photos. Looking at his photos I heard myself saying for the first time "I can do better than that". Because I can. This guys photos were horrible. Flat our horrible. Crooked, bad WB, bad exposure, direct flash, etc. His BBB is clean. 0 complains in 3 years.
> 
> Because he does very well, has a large following, and returning clients, but is horrible at photography, is he not a professional photographer?



If you judge him on his skill and work quality,no. If you base is on money changing hands, then yes.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree... it is ridiculous! I guess that 13 year old babysitter is a professional (because she got PAID!)
> ...



Don't do the if/else logic thing, because you'll destroy any credibility you have.

Doctors, Lawyers, Mechanics, and Real Estate agents? I actually did LOL for this one, because that is such an odd ball list to compare to photography. Not laughing at you, or being snide, it just read very humorous to me.  

First of all... You are comparing licensed professions that take the lives of others into their hands, and real estate agents lol, to photographers.
Why?


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > I recently did some research on wedding photography and came across a local wedding photographer a town over from me, who is quite successful, and quite popular. I checked out his facebook page and saw a dozen or so positive comments about how good his company is and how much these clients love their photos. Looking at his photos I heard myself saying for the first time "I can do better than that". Because I can. This guys photos were horrible. Flat our horrible. Crooked, bad WB, bad exposure, direct flash, etc. His BBB is clean. 0 complains in 3 years.
> ...



But you can't judge him on that, because the subjectivity of his work is not based on whether I think he is good or not. 
He has a massive amount of people that think his work is good, if not great. They pay him. They come back. They recommend him. 

Kind of like a professional musician.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

In other words, being good at music or photography means that people think you are good. They pay you because of that, and those payments become a salary. 
You are a professional.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> But you can't judge him on that, because the subjectivity of his work is not based on whether I think he is good or not.
> He has a massive amount of people that think his work is good, if not great. They pay him. They come back. They recommend him.
> 
> Kind of like a professional musician.



So you are saying that just because someone does a lot of business it makes them professional even if you think their work sucks? What if that person was a jerk to all his staff and clients but still got paid and did good work? 

I am sorry but a professional needs to act like one, produce quality work and get paid for services rendered.


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## mjhoward (Mar 8, 2013)

If you even have to ask then the answer is no


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## AlikGriffin (Mar 8, 2013)

I got some good questions to really determine if you're a pro or not. 

1. Do you know how to put together a legal agreement for licensing photos. Or hire an attorney to create such legal agreements. 
2. Do you have an LLC, or Corporation set up to be dedicated to your photography that you report earnings and losses to the IRS with.
3. Can you write off your gas, travel expenses, some living expenses because of your photography. 
4. Do you have either an employee or do you hire contractors to assist you with your photography. 

There are more, but chances are if you're not doing all those, you're not a pro. 

Although I do all those in the list but I don't even consider myself a pro. I think it's different if your a photographer/artist because I sell prints of landscapes and I license photos constantly but I don't consider myself a pro. Because I'm not hired to work and turn down work for hire, and I don't make a living off just photography alone.


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## manaheim (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah you need to burn in a fire for starting this.


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## table1349 (Mar 8, 2013)




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## rexbobcat (Mar 8, 2013)

AlikGriffin said:


> I got some good questions to really determine if your a pro or not.
> 
> 1. Do you know how to put together a legal agreement for licensing photos. Or hire an attorney to create such legal agreements.
> 2. Do you have a LLC, or Corporation set up to be dedicated to your photography that you report earnings and losses to the IRS with.
> ...



Indeed. One cannot possibly be a professional without other employees.

And on your profile it says you're a professional.

I wish I had something to humblebrag about.


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## manaheim (Mar 8, 2013)

gryphonslair99 said:


>



Quoted for emphasis.

And because this was totally funneh.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

it was not my intention at all.


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## rexbobcat (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> it was not my intention at all.



Your avatar speaks otherwise.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 8, 2013)

I get a call, someone wants me to shoot. I show up, I produce the images they want, they get the images they want a couple of days later, they pay me what I want. 

 Professional.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> I get a call, someone wants me to shoot. I show up, I produce the images they want, they get the images they want a couple of days later, they pay me what I want.
> 
> Professional.



Bingo


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > I get a call, someone wants me to shoot. I show up, I produce the images they want, they get the images they want a couple of days later, they pay me what I want.
> ...



That about sums up my example about the wedding photographer.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > i think gsgary has the best answer. if over 50% of your income is generated thru photography then your a pro.  if your charging money but its less then 50% your a part time pro.
> ...



I know businesses like that. being heavily involved in the audio world several years back I would walk into some stores and be amazed at the lack of knowledge of the owner of the store and even there employee's but to the general public he would be considered the professonal. in competition he would compete as a pro and yet knowledge wise he was an amatuer at best. in your example someone going up to her knowing she's a full time working photography would "assume" they were a pro and likely take their opinion as such. the only ones who wouldn't would be someone who happens to know more then them. so that "pro" designation is going to be diffrent from person to person.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

Mully said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...




I have heard it on cops before using the term  "she's a pro" so yeah works for me lol.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > I recently did some research on wedding photography and came across a local wedding photographer a town over from me, who is quite successful, and quite popular. I checked out his facebook page and saw a dozen or so positive comments about how good his company is and how much these clients love their photos. Looking at his photos I heard myself saying for the first time "I can do better than that". Because I can. This guys photos were horrible. Flat our horrible. Crooked, bad WB, bad exposure, direct flash, etc. His BBB is clean. 0 complains in 3 years.
> ...



The thing is, the general public who knows nothing about quality photography or doesnt know about photography in general will dub this person a professional.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > 12sndsgood said:
> ...



So "PROFESSIONAL" is now a variable term? One can be a professional to the uninitiated, but not to those in the know? That sounds more like a FAKE or a WANNA-BE to me! SO if the real professionals agree that someone is not a professional (even if they are paid), what then?


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > I get a call, someone wants me to shoot. I show up, I produce the images they want, they get the images they want a couple of days later, they pay me what I want.
> ...



So by this definition that imagemaker stated. if a $20 craigslist weekend photographer does the same thing, then they are a pro as well even though there knowledge may be severely limited. if they are getting the job done for those $20 sessions and the people are fine with the results?    seems opposite of what you were stating earlier about a pro needs to have a certain skillset and level of abilities.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Image maker also has shown to have a great skillset.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



I think to the general public that yes it is being used as a variable way. you looking at someones work and may think they are a hack. little suzy homemaker may look at the photos she did for her baby and think shes is great and brags to all her friends about how great the pro photographer she hired and how everyone needs to get there photos done by her. to that person she will be viewed as a pro. while others will look at her work and think  "god, who would pay money for that crap"


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> Image maker also has shown to have a great skillset.




true. but he didnt mention that in his definition of it. he just mentioned getting the job done.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Yeah, you even linked a wikipedia article that defined professional in different ways.
If I produce a type of image that isn't accepted in the photography realm, but is a huge hit with the general public, how does that make me a fake?

There's no certifications or licenses, and there is certainly no set standard.
If there were, there wouldn't be an argument here.  The only way someone is a fraud, is if they use someone elses image to promote their business.


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## AlikGriffin (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm a professional commercial editor. I wish I was a professional photographer though. I'd rather do that.


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## Pukka312 (Mar 9, 2013)

Can professional be geographical? :er: I qualify as a "professional" here in Tanzania because I can make a living here, in part because I have more skill/knowledge then the local competition. However I am not so delusional to believe I could qualify in the U.S.  If I come back to the U.S., I'm fully aware that my "skills" rank at an amateur level and I would by no means be able to support myself. I'd be back to at least part-time nursing and whatever photography I can get on the side.


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## snowbear (Mar 9, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > The difference in opinions on the definition of a "pro" is interesting.  In a number of jurisdictions here, the term "career firefighter" replaced "professional firefighter" to differentiate between those that get paid and the volunteers.
> ...



It stems from battles between the groups (I'm going back to the '70s).  In this particular case, the word "professional" refers to quality of work (as you mention in post 75) -- the vollies get the same training, have the same certifications, and work with the same level of quality.


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## pixmedic (Mar 9, 2013)

snowbear said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > snowbear said:
> ...



the problem with that comparison is that fire/ems workers have a set of standards and protocols they are held to, along with mandatory  training and continuing education in order to maintain their certifications and their ability to work in their field , whereas photographers do not. its a lot easier to hold "career" firefighters to "professional" firefighter standards , because they HAVE the same standards. not necessarily true for photographers. 
you COULD however, have the opinion that a "non professional" photographers produces the same quality of work that a "professional" photographer does, based on what they have done.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 9, 2013)

snowbear said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > snowbear said:
> ...



The only true measure of being "professional" applicable in photography! Since any idiot can buy entry level camera and get paid for it the same day, apparently!


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## Ballistics (Mar 9, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Where do you draw the line? Where do you say this persons work is quality, and this persons work is not? Because I can show you work of photographers that are properly exposed, composed well, but just dull and boring. And I can also show you photographers that aren't blown out, with no composition, but are exciting to look at.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 9, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



That is why we have so many "PERFESSIONALS"! Photography... no schooling needed, no certification needed, no training needed, No continuing education needed, no physical labor needed! Just buy a low end camera, convince someone that knows even less than you do,  that you are worthy of being paid, and BOOM... THAT MAKES YOU A PROFESSIONAL? C'mon... NO WAY! 

Most of these clowns have no business license, DONT PAY TAXES, No insurance, no place of business, no decent gear, lack adequate knowledge, no real skill, and many turn out really BAD IMAGES..... and yet they are just as much a "PROFESSIONAL" as Moose Peterson or Joe McNally, just because they get paid???? Sure... I believe that!


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## cgipson1 (Mar 9, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > snowbear said:
> ...



There will always be a gray area where images are concerned, since what a viewer likes is so subjective. But I think the majority of us can tell a bad image from good one... There are always exceptions to the "Rules / Guidelines" as far as what makes an image work, but they are more uncommon than otherwise!

That photographer near you??? Do you really consider his work professional quality? Are the unwashed masses opinions enough to make him a professional photographer? Or just a GOOD business man (good marketing, good customer service, etc) who can barely use a camera?


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## Ballistics (Mar 9, 2013)

Ok so, going back to my original question. If a photographer is said to take bad photos, but has a large client base, repeat clients, great customer service, a great business model, and his clients love his work.
Is he a professional photographer?

Also, why do you end all of your posts with an exclamation point? lol. I just noticed that.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 9, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> Ok so, going back to my original question. If a photographer is said to take bad photos, but has a large client base, repeat clients, great customer service, a great business model, and his clients love his work.
> Is he a professional photographer?
> 
> Also, why do you end all of your posts with an exclamation point? lol. I just noticed that.



Yes he would be considered a professional photographer.  I know all kinds of them that are doing better financially than I am, but that is my fault not theirs. I would rather have the respect of my peers as being a great photographer with lousy business skills, than have little respect for being a successful businessman with poor photographic skills.


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## Ballistics (Mar 9, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so, going back to my original question. If a photographer is said to take bad photos, but has a large client base, repeat clients, great customer service, a great business model, and his clients love his work.
> ...



Respect from your peers is completely besides the point. However, if I was the most successful portrait photographer in the area, respect would probably be the last thing I would ever worry about. Another "to each it's own" conversation.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 9, 2013)

There are a lot of people in this world that I have great respect for. I see respect as something earned and it should not be taken lightly, it can make or break careers in whatever the chosen career is.


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## Ballistics (Mar 9, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> There are a lot of people in this world that I have great respect for. I see respect as something earned and it should not be taken lightly, it can make or break careers in whatever the chosen career is.



Can't pay your bills with respect. As for the photographer in question, he makes a good living from his poor photography, whether his peers respect him or not. Some people look at it as just a job. Some people think photography is much deeper.


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## RachaelRenaesPhotos (Mar 11, 2013)

mishele said:


> Facebook page is a true sign.



This made me smile


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people in this world that I have great respect for. I see respect as something earned and it should not be taken lightly, it can make or break careers in whatever the chosen career is.
> ...



It is a job for me and that's how I treat it, like any other job. It comes with stress, frustration and is physically demanding. I love doing the work, but it is still work. It's not always fun. One of the reasons I do tell people to really think about it before making it a career, especially a career change, is that as a hobby the only pressures are placed on yourself, once it becomes a paying job the pressures are also placed on you by other people. If you enjoy it as a hobby, then just enjoy it, it all changes when it becomes work.

This is the only thing I have done as a profession, and I don't turn it off, I can't really. I don't enjoy going to events without wanting to shoot them, so I avoid them. When other people work their full time 9-5 jobs all week, I'm trying to find work, on the weekends they pick up their cameras and relax with them. On weekends I am usually working. It is the profession that I chose. It never was a hobby, it was just something I was good at, that I didn't have to work really hard to get better at, but as I said it is physically demanding and will wear the brain down as well. Constantly trying to make better images when working a boring assignment that is basically a formula shoot that always looks the same, only the faces change.  I do love the shooting and the challenges, it has allowed me to see a lot over the years, both good and bad, and some amazing things that I otherwise may not have ever seen. 

Ballistics, it's true you can't pay bills with respect, but some days knowing that you are respected sure helps mentally.


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> I think a title for these questions would be, am I an expert photographer.
> 
> A professional photographer is someone who collects money for their photos.
> They can have less than half of that list checked off and still be considered a pro.
> ...



One could even own and run a professional photography business whithout ever taking a single image!


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## ph0enix (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > Do I need to draw you a picture?
> ...


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## sm4him (Mar 12, 2013)

So, for those of you in the "if you get paid, you're a professional" camp, here's a gray area for you:

Technically, I "get paid" to do photography. I also get paid to write and edit, and maintain websites and social media sites.  Those are the primary functions of my job.

So, am I a "Professional photographer?" And here all this time, I thought I was just a serious hobbyist/hack. :lmao:

I can technically say that I make a living from my photography. But if I started answering all those questions related to actual expertise and ability...I'd sink fast!!

I would term myself a professional writer/editor, because I have education and expertise in those areas. I'd even call myself a professional speaker, although that's a stretch.  But I'd no sooner call myself a professional photographer than I would a professional website designer, although I've created several websites for work.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> So, for those of you in the "if you get paid, you're a professional" camp, here's a gray area for you:
> 
> Technically, I "get paid" to do photography. I also get paid to write and edit, and maintain websites and social media sites.  Those are the primary functions of my job.
> 
> ...



The big gray area...could you make a living from just using a camera?


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## runnah (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > So, for those of you in the "if you get paid, you're a professional" camp, here's a gray area for you:
> ...



I suppose I could fashion some short of weapon out of it to hunt small animals and sell their pelts.


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## Steve5D (Mar 12, 2013)

I didn't read all the way through, so this may or may not have already been mentioned:

For me, I don't care how many clients you have, whether you know how to pose someone, how much insurance you have, what kind of gear you shoot with, or how much money you make.

Being a "professional" comes down to acting "professionally".

I've seen countless so-called "professionals" who wouldn't know "professionalism" if it fell on them. They're boorish slobs who only know how to take pictures (and even that's often suspect), and who people give money to.

I've met far more people, who don't get paid a dime, who act far more professionally than most "pros".

Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter an iota that you consider yourself a "professional". What matters is that _others _do...


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## sm4him (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > sm4him said:
> ...



^ :lmao: Yep. That.
Or I could move to Half Moon Cay and make a living selling photos to tourists, because if they'll pay for those cr*ppy Cruise line pics, surely they'd pay for my similarly cr*ppy shots. 



imagemaker46 said:


> The big gray area...could you make a living from just using a camera?



Yes.
And No.

Yes, because I'm pretty confident that I have the skills to produce results that are as good, or better, than much of the stuff I see being produced from some pretty popular local "pros."  And I have the business education and the marketing skills to probably make it work, if I decided I wanted to do that.
No, because of my own personal standards. I'm not WILLING to produce the kind of results I see from so many "pros" these days, and expect people to pay me for those results. I wouldn't sleep well at night.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > sm4him said:
> ...



And people wonder why these threads end up being pointless and stop reading them.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



So your answer is no because you consider yourself better than what most "pros" are producing and you don't feel that you would get paid what you think you are worth?


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## Pukka312 (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



Just a guess here, but my interpretation of what she said is that most "pros" don't meet her standard of what a true professional is capable of producing, and that even though she is capable of competing and beating some of the competition, it's still not at a level that she's comfortable marketing herself as "pro." In other words, ethically she feels it's not right to market herself as professional...but that's just how I read into it.


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## manaheim (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> So, for those of you in the "if you get paid, you're a professional" camp, here's a gray area for you:
> 
> Technically, I "get paid" to do photography. I also get paid to write and edit, and maintain websites and social media sites.  Those are the primary functions of my job.
> 
> ...



There's no gray area.  You get paid or you don't.  It's binary.

There are other questions about how often you do it, how experienced you are, how skilled you are, but as far as professional or not... Of someone gives you money to do it, then you are a pro.

The problem with this whole thing is people want to assume that the pro label means so much more... I short, that you are not only paid but uniquely qualified and capable.  There's a lot of subjectivity to that, and a lot of emotion,  when most people ask "am I a pro" what they are really asking is "am I a rock star?"


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

So after all these pages the answer is.   

A professional photographer is someone who gets paid to take pictures regardless of the quality.  

If i'm asked what I do, I tell people that I am a photographer, I don't use the word professional.  So if we all just drop professional from our language we can solve a lot of discussion.

doctor
lawyer
race car driver
web designer
engineer
photographer

Why do we use the word professional to describe a photographer when other professions don't?  It is assumed that all doctors, lawyers and engineers are professional, because there are no amateur doctors, lawyers or engineers.


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> So after all these pages the answer is.
> 
> A professional photographer is someone who gets paid to take pictures regardless of the quality.
> 
> ...



From now on you should call yourself an Image Creation Specialist.


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## runnah (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> And people wonder why these threads end up being pointless and stop reading them.



Hey I started it so I have the right to derail it as I see fit. It's in the rules!


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## sm4him (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > sm4him said:
> ...





imagemaker46 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > So, for those of you in the "if you get paid, you're a professional" camp, here's a gray area for you:
> ...





Pukka312 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > sm4him said:
> ...



Pukka's interpretation of my response is correct--except that I carefully didn't use the phrase "most pros" since I like to think that the majority who are truly making a living at photography actually ARE not only pros in the sense of making money, but also in the sense of expertise.  

Perhaps most "FB/Craigslist pros" would be more accurate--I think that I can produce just as decent results as a majority of the FB and Craigslist pros I see. I just don't think that those people are producing quality results, and I would not personally charge if that's what I was capable of producing (which it is).

This is a debate that is so subjective, it will never be settled. I guess I feel like I can only speak for me, and I just wouldn't call myself a "pro" unless I was producing quality photography. 
For instance, since most of what I do is nature, macro and abstract--even though I've sold some pieces, I wouldn't say I'm a "professional photographer" unless I was producing work that major magazines were willing to print, or I was having regular gallery showings, something that would indicate that others in the field of photography find my work outstanding.

On the other hand, I'll admit I tend to have low self-confidence and be my own worst critic. So, maybe I *should* hang my FB shingle out. Heck, I've already got a senior portrait shoot, a maternity shoot AND a newborn shoot all lined up. Not to mention being the semi-exclusive official unofficial photographer for my niece's competitive-league soccer team. Maybe I already ARE a PRO!!


----------



## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



Sounds like you have an idea where you are in your photo world.  The subject will always be open to interpretation and personal opinion, and likely there will never be a single correct answer.  It will always be agreed that there are photographers that are willing to call themselves professional that really aren't, but use the word professional to help prop themselves up in order to get work.  Not too companies run on the platform  "full time amateur photographer"

Everyone has a degree of confidence issues, I don't know too many photographers that aren't always looking for some kind of re-assurance from other photographers, even if it's something as simple as asking the other guys, "what are you shooting at"  then they look at what exposures they are using and switch, personally I don't ask the question, but will have a peek at the other guys cameras to see where they are.   We are all our own toughest critics and even if we know the photo isn't as good as it should be we still defend it and even argue it  to a stupid point.

Have fun with the soccer


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## runnah (Mar 12, 2013)

Imagemaker,

I've said through out here that my definition of a professional photographer is one that is able to produce a great photo in any situation with damn near any gear. Sure they can specialize in portraits or sports but when it comes down to brass tack they can deliver the goods.

Honestly that is what I try to be. I was weak in portraits so I went on here and youtube and learned a bunch of stuff and practiced until I felt I had a working knowledge of basic lighting setups. Now I know that if I had to I could do a portrait session and come up with good results. I like to be secure in the fact that I can show up with my bag o' gear and produce good photos.


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## ph0enix (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



...or maybe a bit of humor here and there keeps people interested so they keep reading.  I suppose you have done your research and can share actual statistics (that support your claim) with all of us though.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> Imagemaker,
> 
> I've said through out here that my definition of a professional photographer is one that is able to produce a great photo in any situation with damn near any gear. Sure they can specialize in portraits or sports but when it comes down to brass tack they can deliver the goods.
> 
> Honestly that is what I try to be. I was weak in portraits so I went on here and youtube and learned a bunch of stuff and practiced until I felt I had a working knowledge of basic lighting setups. Now I know that if I had to I could do a portrait session and come up with good results. I like to be secure in the fact that I can show up with my bag o' gear and produce good photos.




Taking in as much information and learning techniques is the only way to improve, some people do but the majority don't.  I'm sure that most on this forum are always looking to improve.  I know my strong points and I know what I need to improve on.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

ph0enix said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



What are you looking for exactly? Support my claim?


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## runnah (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Imagemaker,
> ...



Earlier I had issue with people saying the people who only specialize in sport could not possibly do a portrait sitting or landscapes etc... What say you?!


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## skieur (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> Lets put together a list of questions you can ask yourself to see if you are a professional or not.
> 
> First off I do not consider myself professional so take my questions with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...



Limited view above!

 Not all pros even own their own equipment!
Not all pros pose either a single person or a group, ever!
Not all pros need a basic understanding of contracts.
Not all pros own or use a studio, therefore they do not need to necessarily know anything about studio lighting.
Not all pros own their own business or even work for another photographer who does.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

I've shot those things without any trouble. I used to say if you can shoot sports you can shoot anything, this of course doesn't apply to everyone.  I've spent a lot of years shooting a lot of things.  I'm more of an outdoor portrait type, available light is what I like to use, it doesn't mean that I can't go into a studio, set up lights and do a good job. I think if someone is competent with a camera and  understands light they can shoot pretty much anything, not as well as someone who specializes in a particular area, but even with that experience makes a difference.


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...




The major difference in sports photography is you can't pose your subjects.  Among many other things I'm sure.

I"m pretty sure these are not posed but they were created by a sports photographer!

http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif

http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif

http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...




http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif


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## o hey tyler (Mar 12, 2013)

jake337 said:


> http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif



Sick pixel bro.


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## amolitor (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm not a pro. I'm a con.


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## timor (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> So after all these pages the answer is.
> 
> A professional photographer is someone who gets paid to take pictures regardless of the quality.
> If i'm asked what I do, I tell people that I am a photographer, I don't use the word professional.


I like that. We are using the word "professional" more as a courtesy to people with high degree of an expertise, enough for people to pay for their work. Profession as a such requires some sort of government level certification. Plumber needs one, photographer no, so there are no "professional plumbers" just plumbers (and amateur plumbers. Like me )


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## rozaza (Mar 12, 2013)

I don't think that anyone without a diploma should have the right to call him/herself a photographer. Or any other profession, for that matter. 
It's as if I like to play my guitar for fun and now I'm a musician, or I like to cure little birds because I think they're cute so I call myself a veterinarian. 
I just find it kind of disgraceful (is that the word?) to the ones who have a degree in photography, and they are photographers - it's written on paper, but wait, a girl that finished studying to be a teacher and likes to shoot her friends for her facebook page is also a photographer? Even though sometimes the ones without a school for it can be as good or even better, but seriously. 
I don't think so.


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## sm4him (Mar 12, 2013)

rozaza said:


> I don't think that anyone without a diploma should have the right to call him/herself a photographer. Or any other profession, for that matter.
> It's as if I like to play my guitar for fun and now I'm a musician, or I like to cure little birds because I think they're cute so I call myself a veterinarian.
> I just find it kind of disgraceful (is that the word?) to the ones who have a degree in photography, and they are photographers - it's written on paper, but wait, a girl that finished studying to be a teacher and likes to shoot her friends for her facebook page is also a photographer? Even though sometimes the ones without a school for it can be as good or even better, but seriously.
> I don't think so.




Anyone without a DIPLOMA??? Seriously?? 
A diploma in WHAT? Photography specifically? Graphic Design? Art? 

Sorry, but that is--in my opinion--patently absurd.
Yes, one should be "schooled" on the subject they purport to be a "professional" in, but that "schooling" might not be from an institute of higher learning.

For that matter, my father was a Senior Accounting Executive with a high-profile financial company for many, many years. THEY certainly considered him a professional, as did all his clients, as did all the people for whom he did taxes every year (as a side business). Yet my father did not have a "diploma" because he lacked ONE class that was offered only during the daytime and he already had a day job and a family to support. This was back in the 50s when there were not online options for schools.

So, was he not actually a "pro" accountant because he lacked a diploma?

By the same token, if someone is a photographer, I don't really give a rat's behind HOW they acquired their knowledge of the trade, I only care that they HAVE the knowledge, and that they have the SKILLS to apply that knowledge.

Also, there are people who decide to change careers--are you suggesting that unless they go back to school and actually get a diploma in their new career choice, they can't be a professional at that?  I have a  degree in Business Administration, Marketing major (which, by the way, can be FAR more useful to having a successful photography business than a photography degree, but I digress). I intended to go back and get a Masters in Statistics and do market research, but children came along and I got "diverted." Then I got hired at a publishing company, doing editorial production. There, I had the opportunity to get some further education (but NOT a degree) in editorial services. I've spent the last twenty years of my life in some sort of editorial vocation. You ask my boss, or anyone I've worked with over the last twenty years, and not a one of them would tell you that I'm a professional Marketing person, despite the B.A. degree--they *would*, however, tell you that I am a skilled, professional editor and writer.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif
> ...



Can't copy and paste or save the images. There are ways around it though.


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## pixmedic (Mar 12, 2013)

rozaza said:


> I don't think that anyone without a diploma should have the right to call him/herself a photographer. Or any other profession, for that matter.
> It's as if I like to play my guitar for fun and now I'm a musician, or I like to cure little birds because I think they're cute so I call myself a veterinarian.
> I just find it kind of disgraceful (is that the word?) to the ones who have a degree in photography, and they are photographers - it's written on paper, but wait, a girl that finished studying to be a teacher and likes to shoot her friends for her facebook page is also a photographer? Even though sometimes the ones without a school for it can be as good or even better, but seriously.
> I don't think so.



degrees that specialize in "photography" are typically thought poorly of. A business degree is FAR more useful, yet is not a "photography degree"
there are MANY fields that do not "require" a professional degree. perhaps the next time you take your car to a mechanic you should tell them unless they have a degree, they have no business being a mechanic. or your plumber. or your lawn guy. or your roofer. All of those jobs are trade skills and all of them are considered "professionals" at a certain level of expertise.   photography has long been thought of as a "trade skill", and the learning process was done by years of internship, not necessarily at a desk in a classroom. 

I think overall, you will find few professional photographers with an actual "photography degree".


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

As important as diplomas are for a lot of jobs and careers these days, having one that says "graduated in photography" from some photo program, looks nice hanging on the wall covering up the hole, but it really means very little.  Unfortunately people do  want to hire graduates of some program, university, college, and you could have two people with the same skills, one has a piece of paper and the other doesn't. guess who gets hired.


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > http://scottgrant.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif
> ...




Woops!!!!


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > jake337 said:
> ...




I didn't even know that you can do that or how to work around it.


You have it there for a reason.  Sorry.


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## sm4him (Mar 12, 2013)

jake337 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > o hey tyler said:
> ...



:lmao: I couldn't figure out what this whole line of posting was even about--but when I went to the scottgrant.photoshelter.com site, I thought "these photos look familiar. I think I've looked at this website before." 
And yet I STILL didn't figure it out until you wrote, "you have it there for a reason..." 

I need more caffeine.


----------



## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



Yeah, I should have just linked his featured favorites portfolio.

Featured Favourites - Images | IMAGE Communications


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

sm4him said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



No worries, I appreciate the effort, at last I know the security works


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

If anyone is interested to see if a sports photographer can shoot anything else, this is my web site  www.imagecommunications.ca


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > jake337 said:
> ...



Well it works for someone who doesn't know how to work around it


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## timor (Mar 12, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> I think overall, you will find few professional photographers with an actual "photography degree".


O your continent, in Europe might be still different. In my time over there one could not open a photographic business without finishing successfully some sort of official training, be it on the level of apprenticeship or university art degree, however one could work as a photographer for newspaper etc. without any schooling. 
I also don't know if Ryeson University students of photography (Toronto) would agree to call them poorly thought.


----------



## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2013)

timor said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > I think overall, you will find few professional photographers with an actual "photography degree".
> ...



At one point years ago only 1% of students that graduated from the Ryerson photo course were working as photographers a year later.  I think it must be similar in other schools as well.


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## Ballistics (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



I can weigh in on this a bit. I'm in a community college Associates program for photography and according to the department heads, employment opportunities locally are extremely high. Many students who wish to continue to a 4 year degree that don't attend private schools, usually wind up at FIT which again, the employment opportunities from there are also extremely high. It isn't the piece of paper that gets you jobs or even the instruction, but the connections,school networks and internships that land you in good places. Although anecdotal, I can't think of a single person off the top of my head that has graduated from here that hasn't landed a decent gig.

Of course, NYC is 50 miles west, and the island is filled with photographers that do well.


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## timor (Mar 12, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> At one point years ago only 1% of students that graduated from the Ryerson photo course were working as photographers a year later.  I think it must be similar in other schools as well.


That is a different matter.


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## manaheim (Mar 12, 2013)

The oldest profession in the world.  We all know what that is, right?

Why do we call them professionals?  Is it because they are experts in their field?  Is it because they produce a high quality product?  Perhaps it's because they treat their customers a certain way.  Perhaps... it's because they have a diploma?


----------



## Judobreaker (Mar 12, 2013)

Actually according to the official definition a professional is simply someone that does it for a living...
If someone could live off his photography jobs while making really bad pictures he's still a professional. 

Ok, part-timers are a bit tough with this but you get the general idea. ^^
There's a difference between a pro and a very skilled photographer. Of course you can be both at the same time...


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## pixmedic (Mar 12, 2013)

meanwhile...a TRUE professional photographer. 






these are how all of my shoots go.


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## pixmedic (Mar 12, 2013)

sometimes they go like this...


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## pixmedic (Mar 12, 2013)

but every so often...this


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## Greiver (Mar 12, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > timor said:
> ...


To be fair though, the whole "It isn't the piece of paper that gets you jobs or even the instruction,  but the connections,school networks and internships that land you in  good places" thing goes for pretty much every field these days. At least from what i can see.


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## manaheim (Mar 12, 2013)

I still thin runnah started this just to cause a thread from hell and he should be totally banned for it.


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## MiFleur (Mar 12, 2013)

Here you go runnah
- Do I make money with my pictures
- Can I go in the menus of my camera and know how each setting will affect my photos ( I am not there yet)
- Do I know how to edit my photos so that the colors look accurate and natural?
- Can I change my lens within 20 seconds?
- When I see a landscape, do I see the actual landscape or the cropped image of the landscape following the rule of thirds?
- Is my camera following me everywhere I go?
- Do I plan my shots in advance? or just shoot and look at what is coming out?
- Can I make a good photo in bad conditions?


This is what comes to my mind... next!


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## skieur (Mar 12, 2013)

These kinds of threads too often only cover a very narrow area of professional photography.

1. Only some professional photographers have their own business.  There are those who don't.
2. Some professional photographers have a job in a company or organization where photography is a large part of their job description.
3. Some pros use equipment that belongs to the company, not their own equipment for work.
4. Some pros working for a company have a budget to buy whatever they need to do the job.
5. Some pros may only do weddings and/or portraits, seniors, etc., but others may do everything from public relations, sports, journalistic, portraits, documentary, legal, artistic, etc.
6. Some pros don't insure there equipment because it is consumable and obsolete in a short amount of time.
7. Some pros without a photography degree have ended up teaching those courses that lead to a photography degree.


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## Ballistics (Mar 12, 2013)

Greiver said:


> Ballistics said:
> 
> 
> > imagemaker46 said:
> ...



I disagree whole heartily. While connections and networking is huge for every field, it's not required for degrees like engineering,computer science, nursing etc. The piece of paper alone can land you a decent-good paying job right out of the gate.


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## manaheim (Mar 12, 2013)

Go tell that to all the recent graduates who are out of work.

Seriously.  It's really bad out there these days.


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## Ballistics (Mar 12, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Go tell that to all the recent graduates who are out of work.
> 
> Seriously.  It's really bad out there these days.



It is bad, but we're not talking about job availability. That's a bit besides the point.


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## manaheim (Mar 12, 2013)

Is it?  This stupid thread has wound around so bad, I wouldn't be surprised if the point was the current price of balogna in the Vatican.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think it is besides the point.  You seem to be saying a degree will get you a job, pretty much no problem.  However, I've seen plenty of cases where people without that paper have gotten jobs just because of who they know, and plenty of people who cannot get jobs with the paper. 

There are so many variables.


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## Ballistics (Mar 12, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Is it?  This stupid thread has wound around so bad, I wouldn't be surprised if the point was the current price of balogna in the Vatican.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, I don't think it is besides the point.  You seem to be saying a degree will get you a job, pretty much no problem.  However, I've seen plenty of cases where people without that paper have gotten jobs just because of who they know, and plenty of people who cannot get jobs with the paper.
> 
> There are so many variables.



If there are no jobs to be had, paper or not, then it doesn't matter in the first place.


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## mishele (Mar 12, 2013)

manaheim said:


> I still thin runnah started this just to cause a thread from hell and he should be totally banned for it.


I'll take care of this...


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## runnah (Mar 12, 2013)

Aww shucks guys, I am just a small town guy from Maine with dreams of being a fancy big city fotographer. Ayuh.


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## timor (Mar 14, 2013)

How one becomes a pro photographer:
Ansel Adams | Darkroom User


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## table1349 (Mar 14, 2013)

manaheim said:


> The oldest profession in the world.  We all know what that is, right?
> 
> Why do we call them professionals?  Is it because they are experts in their field?  Is it because they produce a high quality product?  Perhaps it's because they treat their customers a certain way.  Perhaps... it's because they have a diploma?



No, we call them professionals because that is how they make their living.  Doesn't mean that they are skilled or even good looking.  But they are different than the norm.  At least the norm in their customers lives.


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## table1349 (Mar 14, 2013)

runnah said:


> Aww shucks guys, I am just a small town guy from Maine with dreams of being a fancy big city fotographer. Ayuh.



Ah yes, Maine.  The place that Stephen King sets most of his novels.  Like a Stephen King novel this thread is just another horror story in the road of life.


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## TruckerDave (Mar 15, 2013)

runnah said:


> Aww shucks guys, I am just a small town guy from Maine with dreams of being a fancy big city fotographer. Ayuh.



But you can't get there from here, especially if you are a flatlander.


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## Luke345678 (Mar 15, 2013)

To me a lot of people take the words "Professional Photographer" as someone that get's a paycheck for it. To me, that is not it at all. The word Professional is very tricky. I've met many photographers that do it as a hobby that are much better than ones that do make money off of it. I personally believe it's about the skill of the photographer rather than the paycheck one recieves. 

Once again, just my opinion. 

-Luke


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

Luke345678 said:


> To me a lot of people take the words "Professional Photographer" as someone that get's a paycheck for it. To me, that is not it at all. The word Professional is very tricky. I've met many photographers that do it as a hobby that are much better than ones that do make money off of it. I personally believe it's about the skill of the photographer rather than the paycheck one recieves.
> 
> Once again, just my opinion.
> 
> -Luke



The problem here is the word "opinion".

I could have an "opinion" that "to me a professional photographer is" a guy wearing a penguin suit.

Opinions are irrelevant and lead to giant stupid threads from hell.


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## pixmedic (Mar 15, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Luke345678 said:
> 
> 
> > To me a lot of people take the words "Professional Photographer" as someone that get's a paycheck for it. To me, that is not it at all. The word Professional is very tricky. I've met many photographers that do it as a hobby that are much better than ones that do make money off of it. I personally believe it's about the skill of the photographer rather than the paycheck one recieves.
> ...



how is a guy wearing a penguin suit NOT professional?!?


----------



## Steve5D (Mar 15, 2013)

rozaza said:


> I don't think that anyone without a diploma should have the right to call him/herself a photographer. Or any other profession, for that matter.
> It's as if I like to play my guitar for fun and now I'm a musician...



If you're not a musician, what are you?

Are you a "guitarist"? A "guitar player"? Do you have a diploma which decress either of those?

I played guitar professionally for ten years. I made a lot of money doing it, and it was my primary source of income for a time.

I can assure you, I was a musician. I was a musician not because I considered myself one, but because others did, and that's the difference between being a professional and being a hack.

Sorry, but the whole "diploma" argument left "silly" in its wake a long time ago...


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## Ballistics (Mar 15, 2013)

rozaza said:


> I don't think that anyone without a diploma should have the right to call him/herself a photographer. Or any other profession, for that matter.
> It's as if I like to play my guitar for fun and now I'm a musician, or I like to cure little birds because I think they're cute so I call myself a veterinarian.
> I just find it kind of disgraceful (is that the word?) to the ones who have a degree in photography, and they are photographers - it's written on paper, but wait, a girl that finished studying to be a teacher and likes to shoot her friends for her facebook page is also a photographer? Even though sometimes the ones without a school for it can be as good or even better, but seriously.
> I don't think so.



So before photography degree programs were around, there were no professional photographers?

Why do people compare photography to jobs that require 6-8 years of school, a degree and a license? lol.


----------



## table1349 (Mar 15, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Luke345678 said:
> ...



If he makes his income from from whittling sticks, then the penguin suit has nothing to do with stick whittling.  It just makes him an over dressed goober.


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

Lol


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 15, 2013)

I think this thread has been beaten to death, revived and then smothered.


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## Greiver (Mar 15, 2013)

manaheim said:


> In all seriousness, though, I don't think it is besides the point.  You seem to be saying a degree will get you a job, pretty much no problem.  However, I've seen plenty of cases where people without that paper have gotten jobs just because of who they know, and plenty of people who cannot get jobs with the paper.



Welcome to today's job market.


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm gonna start posting this every other post until we stop talking about this...


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## runnah (Mar 15, 2013)

manaheim said:


> I'm gonna start posting this every other post until we stop talking about this...



But I think we are close to figuring this out?!


----------



## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

runnah said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > I'm gonna start posting this every other post until we stop talking about this...
> ...



Oh yes, I'm sure after another 14 pages or so we'll have it nailed.


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## mishele (Mar 15, 2013)

If you post that....I'm going to post this...


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## runnah (Mar 15, 2013)

mishele said:


> If you post that....I'm going to post this...



I haves feelings about that.


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwow.  Shouldn't that be in the NSFW section? 







 +


----------



## mishele (Mar 15, 2013)




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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

You know if we were real mods, we would probably be locking this thread about now...


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## mishele (Mar 15, 2013)

But...............we're not. lol


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

Ah the liberty of being a half-mod...






You know, this is sort of kinda like a way to pretty much ground a thread.  We should just do this every time one of these threads comes up until Terri relents and agrees to give us full mod rights.  Kinda like bunny extortion... or in your case, bunny S&M.


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## mishele (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't know who picked you as a Mod.!!


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## manaheim (Mar 15, 2013)

Some hot mama...






I'm running out of bunnies with food on their heads.


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## table1349 (Mar 15, 2013)




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## lucadiana (Mar 24, 2013)

There are two definitions of "professional photographer"

1) A person that knows and understands photography at a level much higher than average

2) A person whose most income is generated by photography


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## Ballistics (Mar 24, 2013)

lucadiana said:


> There are two definitions of "professional photographer"
> 
> 1) A person that knows and understands photography at a level much higher than average
> 
> 2) A person whose most income is generated by photography



The reason why number 1 couldn't possibly be an option: Define average.


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## pgriz (Mar 24, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> The reason why number 1 couldn't possibly be an option: Define average.



Oh, come on now!  Most North American schools claim that 95% of THEIR students are above average!


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## manaheim (Mar 24, 2013)

runnah is laughing and laughing because this thread hasn't died yet,


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## table1349 (Mar 24, 2013)




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## table1349 (Mar 24, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> lucadiana said:
> 
> 
> > There are two definitions of "professional photographer"
> ...



Average - anyone who thinks they can define what a professional photographer is.


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## Dikkie (May 4, 2013)

I'm totally not a pro.... 


But I do have a necklace of donuts and shoot naked barbie dolls.


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## pgriz (May 4, 2013)

So, if we're keeping alive zombie threads, and running up runnah's ability to make such beasts, let me contribute.  I am my company's "official" photographer.  All of our selling and marketing material uses my photography.  I do not sell any of my photography, nor do I get paid for doing it.  However, without my photography, my company would have a hard time selling its products and services.  So am I a "pro"?


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## manaheim (May 4, 2013)

Dikkie said:


> I'm totally not a pro....
> 
> 
> But I do have a necklace of donuts and shoot naked barbie dolls.



Ok, -10 points for reviving this evil thread, but +100 points for humor and +1000 for referencing my joke in an appropriately hysterical way.


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## LaFoto (May 4, 2013)

Now that all points have been handed out, and considering that this thread had long run its course, here comes the big padlock.


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