# RANT - Photography Business



## RoyalCaptures

RANT BEWARE:
I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.

Thoughts??


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## bratkinson

Everybody would LOVE to have a job they LOVE, work 5-10 hours a week taking pictures, and get well paid for doing so! THAT'S what the unknowing public perception of a professional photographer is. 

Those of us old enough to remember when Bob Cummings had his own TV show in which he was a professional photographer that lived well and had numerous beautiful women at his feet know that was merely TV/Hollywood fiction, not reality. Back in the late '50s when that show was on TV, one really had to know a whole lot more than point the camera and click the shutter to make a living out of it.

But today, one can simply buy a 'fancy' camera (any starter kit will do), hang out a shingle and start taking pictures and make lots of money! It's all so E-A-S-Y...

Yea...right!

How easily the naïve believe that's all they have to do? OK...get a 'professional camera' and some 'professional lenses' instead...THEN go for it!

Never mind the accounting side of running a business...or the IRS, or professional insurance (liability, accident, errors and omissions, etc), advertising...AND putting food on the table PLUS health insurance, rent/mortgage, etc. OOOPS!!! I forgot the startup costs of actually acquiring 'all that' professional gear.

And last, but not least...don't forget actually learning photography and capturing a mood or feeling, not simply millions of colored pixels inside a computer disguised as a camera...


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## PaulWog

Take any niche forum... or any online forum for that matter... and you'll run into 'the angry crowd'. They get mad at life. They get mad at other people, they nitpick, and they initiate arguments that never need to be started in the first place. Earlier today, someone asked about which lens he should get to progress from his 18-55mm lens. He stated clearly what he wanted, what he does with his camera, etc (the answer was that he wanted more reach). The first reply wasn't "here's lens choices X, Y, and Z". He was met with a response that read: "Frankly, do you even know, understand and can use ALL of the functionality that [your camera] has?" The name of the forum-goer who gave the response is irrelevant. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he doesn't have advice to give. What I'm pointing out is the insipid, bashful attitudes that so many forum-goers choose to default to.

Remember that this is a relatively major photography forum. If someone is interested in going pro, and they decide the discussion medium to lay their thoughts out will be a forum, then this forum is a very likely one for them to come to. So, if you're frequently refreshing the "Aspiring Professionals" subsection of thephotoforum, you're obviously going to run into this a lot more. What I'm saying is that the numbers might not be that great, but you're putting yourself at the hub where many of these kinds of people will come to.

Moreover, photography isn't the only trade that people choose to pursue on a whim. Plumbing, carpentry, interior design, fashion design, make-up artists, professional writer, YouTube personalities, artists of all types, professional trades workers of all types, etc... it's not uncommon for people to wake up and say "Hey! I want to be *that*." Most don't make it past the internal thought process. When someone takes it to a forum, that's not worth a lot more than the first stage of thinking it out in your head. I wouldn't be offended by someone saying they want to go pro, they have a prosumer camera and a lens or two, and they've shot a couple vacations. They could be misinformed, ignorant, and overly hopeful. However, few will take it to the next stage.

Remember that photography is one of those things that everyone gets to do. Many people try to be their own lawyer or doctor when they shouldn't be. Many home-school their children when they don't know the first thing about properly laying out a learning plan for a child. The examples are endless. Botched home improvement jobs? Yep, that happens every day. The enjoyable do-it-yourself stuff is what is attractive to many (especially those who are unhappy with their profession, or don't have a professional field they're currently in). And yes, the lazy people do exist who should have gotten a proper education, or stuck with a company or trade, and they didn't... and they just want it all handed to them (but it's not worth getting angry over the most painfully annoying examples). I think we could narrow the go-to easy-to-think-it's-easy-but-it's-not-that-easy list of professions down to maybe a list of 20. Photography is up there. I've run into many (very young, very old, and inbetween) who are terrible with writing, and they are continually trying to be published, or just have others look at their writing. I think what you're mad at is the image of a person who thinks like this: "If I just try hard enough I can do it... I don't actually need to treat this like a path which requires self-education, constant adaption, intense dedication, and substantial amounts of discipline...".


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## photoguy99

What's wrong with that?

'But they're soooooo baaad!' isn't a reason. Neither is 'they'll probably fail' since that's true about every business.


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## RoyalCaptures

I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!


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## Overread

Dear photography - welcome to the world of traditional art, where people who can't draw have been getting jobs since we invented drawing!


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## SCraig

You can't blame it all on the people who immediately buy a camera and hang up a shingle, a lot of the blame lies with the consumers.  Look at any of the social media sites or photography forums and the trash that gets the "That's GREAT!" comments and likes.  Consumers have been bombarded with bad to mediocre photography for so long that they have come to accept it as being "Good".  Friends and family tell someone "Wow!  You're great!  You should go Pro!" and they do it.

When the bar keeps getting lowered then the profession gets flooded with people who can't jump very high.


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## acparsons

Well, I would like to become a "professional photographer." I have two other professions as well, but love creating photos. It's been a long journey learning what I know now, and I know I have a lot further to go. In my opinion, more power to anyone that wants to become a "professional photographer."


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## JoeW

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??




Yep.  And you've actually understated the issue.  B/c everyone knows someone else with an "expensive" camera (and we all know the camera is what makes you a pro) or their nephew once took a really great picture a couple of years ago at that family reunion on the beach, the expectation for many potential clients is that you'll shoot the wedding for $50 plus the open bar.  Or that you'll take photos of their house/family/event for "the exposure."

And I'm not bitter.  That's just the reality of trying to live full-time as a photographer these days:  it's much harder b/c the expectations have changes and the barriers to entry are much lower.  And it's even worse if you're a photojournalist--you've got people with a camera, no experience in a war zone at all, who head off to Syria, no affiliation with any media outlet.  

Screaming at the Gods isn't going to change this--it's the nature of the market and how technology has evolved.  The best ways to succeed are pretty much the ways that most small businesses stay in business these days:
--have a good business plan and a sustainable business model with a competitive advantage (most photographers don't have any of the three)
--perform well
--have a niche so that in that speciality EVERYONE in that niche knows you and sees you as the "go to" guy (or gal)
--mine for referrals, treat them like gold, and run your business in a way so you're continually producing referrals and "word of mouth."

Do those things and you'll probably be successful.  You'll probably also spend very little of your time doing photography (and most of it being a businessman...which is how most successful businesses operate).  Sorry if this came off as a lecture--just sharing my mindset as to why I don't get upset at the guy who starts at wedding photography shop on the side where he shoots a wedding for $200, does minimal edits and then hands over a CD or the college student who will shoot your family portraits for beer money.


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## manaheim

This is a rant thread with the word "professional" in it.

So that means that by the time I come home tonight it should be like 6-7 pages long and will probably need to be locked.


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## keyseddie

I see your point, Royal, and yours as well JoeW. I apprenticed with a top shooter in the mid 70s for 2 years and learned a lot. I was blessed with writing and public speaking skills which paid dividends with self promo. Back when commercial guys in the city were kings, (80'S)my hourly rate was higher than the day rate a new pro was seeking in another thread. I was always good but my contacts would get me the jobs, which is how that world worked. Lucrative but too demanding and cutthroat for my tastes and personality. High end weddings were next, and I made a good living there for a few years. Again, my photography was good, but my self promo preceded it and got the clients. I ended my active career in the art show biz, mostly in the Hamptons. I currently take people to Europe, help them with their photography, and still sell prints, mostly on aluminum, for way too high a price.
I've been here a week or so, and it did amaze me to see watermarks on poorly constructed images and "Photographer" attached to peoples names with little experience. In retrospect, I charged too much money before my talents deserved it, but I did have the apprenticeship behind me and was full of the bs needed to move forward back then. KMH, I believe, posted in a thread some facts about pro photographers earnings, and it was astounding to me how little shooters make nowadays. I wish all the aspiring pros the best of luck. It's different than my time, so I probably lack the correct advice on business, but I do know what sells as art and I do know what sucks, so ask away if you think I could help you.


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## imagemaker46

Just do a search on this topic and you'll find all the same comments/complaints in every thread. People should have figured it out by now that potential clients look at price before they look at quality. Quality in photography has changed since digital, garbage is now acceptable, mediocre is now good, good is now excellent, and excellent doesn't matter in the minds of most anymore. If someone can get a mediocre image from a mediocre camera owner and pay very little they will go that route. If someone can get garbage for free, they will take it.

It took me a long time to accept the fact that the business of photography has changed to the point where I would never recommend anyone go into it as a career, learn photography and enjoy it as a hobby absolutely, but a career, nope. People still see photographers as living the grand and glamorous life, hanging out with professional athletes and celebrities, travelling the world, working a few hours a day and making thousands of dollars. These people are the "photo dreamers" If they had to spend a month walking in the shoes of your average full time professional they'd see a different world, especially if that professional is a freelancer, with one income.

I have had to alter the way I do business, going back to the point of offering my services at a rate lower than what I used to charge in order to get clients to hire me more often, it still translates into the same money, just takes longer to get it, and the clients feels like they are getting a better deal. The price of the cameras and lenses I require to do the job haven't changed, in most cases they have gone up quite a bit, so it takes more work to make ends meet at the end of the month, longer hours and more stress dealing with it all.

In the end laying blame on a declining industry is pointless, you can't blame the camera companies they want to make money, can't blame the people that buy the cameras, and you can't blame people with the cameras for thinking they can make "extra" money with it. If I was to lay any blame at all, it would be society for treating mediocre as acceptable. People used to reach for excellence, now they are happy with just being ok.


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## sscarmack

I haven't met anyone around me who wants to be a "professional". I'm actually searching for the next "pro" in the area to mentor them and use as an assistant and its like pulling teeth.

Then again, I'm sure its all based on location also.


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## mishele

Thoughts...
Stop worrying about everyone else.:mrgreen:


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## robbins.photo

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??



Hey, some of those dogs really have some natural talent.  Saw some street photography the other day shot by a golden retriever.  Granted it was mostly just shots of fire hydrants but some of them were very artistic.

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## manaheim

mishele said:


> Thoughts...
> Stop worrying about everyone else.:mrgreen:



x1000


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## xj0hnx

bratkinson said:


> Everybody would LOVE to have a job they LOVE, work 5-10 hours a week taking pictures, and get well paid for doing so! THAT'S what the unknowing public perception of a professional photographer is.



Wait ...what? Then how come I put in 113 hours this pay period? WTH, I got juked


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## astroNikon

I love the threads of a newbie saying they want to go Pro .. but need to buy a camera and have $500 max to spend.
Newbies can get off to a strong start.  But usually the lack of revenue or the lack of quality catches up to them.

Basically .. don't worry about anyone else.  Just make sure you put the energy into how and what you do to make sure it is the best.

I'm not a pro.  But I did drive past a Holiday Inn Express this morning.


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## imagemaker46

Enjoy the hobby, you'll live longer.


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## Steve5D

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??



Why does it bother you? Why are you so put off by what someone else wants to do?

Worry about yourself. If your business is adversely affected by some hack with a camera, then your business was in a lot of trouble long before the hack with a camera showed up...


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## robbins.photo

Steve5D said:


> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it bother you? Why are you so put off by what someone else wants to do?
> 
> Worry about yourself. If your business is adversely affected by some hack with a camera, then your business was in a lot of trouble long before the hack with a camera showed up...
Click to expand...


Did someone here call for a hack with a camera!

Umm.. nope.. guess not.  Crap.  Oh well, in case somebody does just let me know.  Lol


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## snerd

Got a relative who bought a D5300 last year. Posts to Facebook. Friends Oooooo and ahhhhhh. Tell them how great they are. They could be a pro! So they put up a FB page for business, create a website at wix, I think. Open for business! Remarks to me awhile back that a camera course is in the near future so they can "really" learn how to use it! Their work? Ugh. On my level, beginner. But some money has already changed hands, so there ya go!


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## astroNikon

robbins.photo said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it bother you? Why are you so put off by what someone else wants to do?
> 
> Worry about yourself. If your business is adversely affected by some hack with a camera, then your business was in a lot of trouble long before the hack with a camera showed up...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did someone here call for a hack with a camera!
> 
> Umm.. nope.. guess not.  Crap.  Oh well, in case somebody does just let me know.  Lol
Click to expand...


But you are a Hack with TWO cameras !!


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## sscarmack

In all fairness. I've seen some "PROS", who should not be pros let alone a beginner. Just sayinggggggg.


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## Derrel

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??



And you call yourself a professional ranter? With that tame little rant? Ohhh, puhhhh-leeease! ;-)

Yeah, there are a boatload of professional photographers in every town and city these days. The tipping point was the first Digital Rebel, which was prices at just under the magical $1,000 US price point. That price barrier opened the floodgates. Within a few years, there was a full-blown phenomenon occurring, as reported by The New York Times in the spring of 2007:  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/your-money/27iht-mplay28.4.5478740.html?_r=0


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## PixelRabbit

I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!


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## bribrius

well. I think it comes to a point, when you have a potentially expensive hobby. That you either learn to live with what you have for equipment, win the lottery, realize you were born with a silver spoon you never knew about, or contemplate making some money on it to continue further into the field. The idea that everyone can drop 20k + into something without any return clearly isn't rational.

Perhaps some shouldn't really be considered pro. But this is free market capitalism. Perhaps in a communist society who could shoot a camera pro would be decided by others. In this one the free market does.


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## robbins.photo

astroNikon said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it bother you? Why are you so put off by what someone else wants to do?
> 
> Worry about yourself. If your business is adversely affected by some hack with a camera, then your business was in a lot of trouble long before the hack with a camera showed up...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did someone here call for a hack with a camera!
> 
> Umm.. nope.. guess not. Crap. Oh well, in case somebody does just let me know. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But you are a Hack with TWO cameras !!
Click to expand...


Well sure, I'd hate to have one break down and interrupt my busy photo hacking schedule.  Lol


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## JacaRanda




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## bribrius




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## robbins.photo

PixelRabbit said:


> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!



In other news, Pentagon officials refused to comment today about the possiblity of a new threat surfacing on the internet, rabbits armed with digital cameras.  An official from Homeland security, who refused to be named, stated simply "Oh sure, we've heard of these so called Bunny Bitmappers.  But at this time we don't consider it a credible threat."  The Fudd family could not be reached for comment, however family attorney and spokesperson F. Leghorn, Esquire had this to say on the situation.  "Well what..  I say what can you expect.  Them critters have always been wascally.  Rascally, that is."


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## KmH

Everyone that wants to _should_ give making money from photography a go.

The market will separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## gsgary

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??



Thank DIGITAL for that


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## gsgary

Start shooting weddings on film it is going to get big i know 2 pro's that have gone back to MF film because they kept getting asked now they are getting more weddings and can charge more and people will pay, i have been asked to shoot 5 this year because people know i shoot 90% film (turned them all down shooting weddings bores the **** out of me)


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## table1349




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## robbins.photo

gsgary said:


> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank DIGITAL for that
Click to expand...


Just got off the phone with Digital in fact. He wanted me to tell you, "You're welcome."


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## manaheim

PixelRabbit said:


> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!



I'd like to put my support behind this movement.


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## robbins.photo

manaheim said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my support behind this movement.
Click to expand...


Pentagon officials still refusing to comment on the possible dangers of the bitmapped bunnies extremist group.  In related news F. Leghorn, Esquire, attorney for the Fudd family, remarked, "My God, they have doubled... I say they have doubled in size just since this morning.  I don't much care what those fellars at the Pentagon have to say, frankly those boys are about as sharp as a bag of wet mice."


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## table1349

manaheim said:


> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my support behind this movement.
Click to expand...


Yeah, we can tell how you are putting "your support" behind PixelRabbit's "movement."


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## snowbear

PixelRabbit said:


> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!



I guess this means I need to change my avatar again, but which one?  Decisions, decisions:


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## table1349

How about this one?





This one might be good as well................


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## manaheim

gryphonslair99 said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PixelRabbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting a new movement , Rabbit With A Camera, you have been warned!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my support behind this movement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, we can tell how you are putting "your support" behind PixelRabbit's "movement."
> 
> View attachment 76551
Click to expand...


bahahahaha.... WOW.



gryphonslair99 said:


> How about this one?
> 
> This one might be good as well................



What in the world...


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## table1349

manaheim said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to put my support behind this movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, we can tell how you are putting "your support" behind PixelRabbit's "movement."
> 
> View attachment 76551
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> bahahahaha.... WOW.
> 
> 
> 
> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about this one?
> 
> This one might be good as well................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the world...
Click to expand...


Rabbit from the late 60's.  Now that's a fro.


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## Ilovemycam

Every man and his dog has a camera in their sweaty little palms nowadays. 

In the history of photography, photos have never been so cheap and so easily available. Flickr claims to have billions of photos. If you want travel pix, *just one* Flickr group has 2.5 million of them. Flowers...1.3 million, sunsets...almost a million. 

It is much easier to become a world-famous and rich actor / actress than a world famous and rich photog. 

But, none of this matters. If freezing time is in your blood....you keep pushing the button irrespective of all this.


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## snerd

Ilovemycam said:


> Every man and his dog has a camera in their sweaty little palms nowadays.
> 
> In the history of photography, photos have never been so cheap and so easily available. Flickr claims to have billions of photos. If you want travel pix, *just one* Flickr group has 2.5 million of them. Flowers...1.3 million, sunsets...almost a million.
> 
> It is much easier to become a world-famous and rich actor / actress than a world famous and rich photog.
> 
> But, none of this matters. If freezing time is in your blood....you keep pushing the button irrespective off all this.



This is my camera. There are many like it, but this one is mine....................


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## Ilovemycam

imagemaker46 said:


> Enjoy the hobby, you'll live longer.




I'd tell anyone that asks there are easier ways to make $ than photography. 

To me photography is sacred. I do not like mixing $ with it. Sure it would be nice if someone threw some money my way. But it would have to be more of a grant with no strings. I would not want to be shooting anything other than what I want to.


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## Ilovemycam

bribrius said:


> well. I think it comes to a point, when you have a potentially expensive hobby. That you either learn to live with what you have for equipment, win the lottery, realize you were born with a silver spoon you never knew about, or contemplate making some money on it to continue further into the field. The idea that everyone can drop 20k + into something without any return clearly isn't rational.
> 
> Perhaps some shouldn't really be considered pro. But this is free market capitalism. Perhaps in a communist society who could shoot a camera pro would be decided by others. In this one the free market does.



Yes, pix taking, travel and the rest can eat up lots of $. If you don't do it for $, you do it for love.


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## Steve5D

Ilovemycam said:


> I would not want to be shooting anything other than what I want to.



But that certainly doesn't preclude you being paid for it.

I'm shooting Goo Goo Dolls, Daughtry and Plain White T's next week, and will be getting paid nicely for it. I freaking _love _concert photography...


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## Browncoat

RoyalCaptures said:


> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!



To the general public, photography is little more than just an app on their phone. Let that sink in for a little bit, then read on:

There is no such thing as a bad photographer, only a bad marketer. Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen. If you think your photos are so amazing that people should be lining up to hire you, you're wrong. If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong.


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## e.rose

RoyalCaptures said:


> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??



Of course they do.

Counterpoint: Who cares? :greenpbl:


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## e.rose

Browncoat said:


> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the general public, photography is little more than just an app on their phone. Let that sink in for a little bit, then read on:
> 
> There is no such thing as a bad photographer, only a bad marketer. Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen. If you think your photos are so amazing that people should be lining up to hire you, you're wrong. If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong.
Click to expand...


I didn't read anything else in this thread, but I saw this post, because it was above mine.

"There is no such thing s a bad photographer" -- Totally, 100% disagree. There are BILLIONS of absolutely gut-wrenchingly horrible photographers.

HOWEVER... "Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen." Agreed.

"If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong." Agreed.

Photo quality only plays a part. BUT... the part it plays, I feel is integral.

And here's why:

There are plenty of people who get hired over me, because they're "cheaper". Only difference is, I don't give a sh*t, because if they are gonna hire a photographer with lesser quality, because they're cheaper, they weren't my target client to begin with. The clients I *do* get are super chill and hire me because of the experience I give them and the quality of my images over the other choices they've seen. And I ain't cheap.  But they heard from their friends what a great experience it was, and they've seen their friend's images, which is what causes them to contact me in the first place.

So you're right.

People who b*tch about this, are just jaded and probably poor salespeople. There are always going to be shoot and burners, your job is to figure out how to put value to what you're giving your clients in addition to handing them quality images, and then sell them those images when it's all said and done. :sillysmi:


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## imagemaker46

Browncoat said:


> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the general public, photography is little more than just an app on their phone. Let that sink in for a little bit, then read on:
> 
> There is no such thing as a bad photographer, only a bad marketer. Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen. If you think your photos are so amazing that people should be lining up to hire you, you're wrong. If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong.
Click to expand...


How long have you been working as a successful full time professional photographer?


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## imagemaker46

I'm hired based on my experience and skills and reputation.  I've never been good at promoting myself, I produce images that sell and I'm hired by clients that appreciate the work I do. I turned work down last year because of work conflicts, and I still don't market myself. I have placed ads in two magazines targeting  a very specific market and it didn't generate any work, some sales, but I wouldn't consider it successful, so I turned down the magazine when they came to me for another ad. ( I also didn't pay for the ads, but traded it off for a couple of pictures)

The world is filled with bad photographers, it is filled with bad amateurs and bad "professionals"  I know average photographers that take every job that comes along, regardless of how much they are paid and they make a pretty good living, but all they do is work and work for fear of missing out on the next $15 shoot. They market and promote themselves all the time.  Are they great successful photographers, by some standards people would consider them both, this is the world of mediocre being accepted.


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## robbins.photo

e.rose said:


> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> RANT BEWARE:
> I'm sorry guys, but come on seriously. It seems like every man and his dog I know wants to become a "professional photographer" lately.
> 
> Thoughts??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they do.
> 
> Counterpoint: Who cares? :greenpbl:
Click to expand...


I suppose a "Jane, you ignorant ...." comment here would probably date me horribly.. lol


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## robbins.photo

e.rose said:


> "There is no such thing s a bad photographer" -- Totally, 100% disagree. There are BILLIONS of absolutely gut-wrenchingly horrible photographers.



Well, a billion and one - I bought a camera too you know.



> There are plenty of people who get hired over me, because they're "cheaper". Only difference is, I don't give a sh*t, because if they are gonna hire a photographer with lesser quality, because they're cheaper, they weren't my target client to begin with. The clients I *do* get are super chill and hire me because of the experience I give them and the quality of my images over the other choices they've seen. And I ain't cheap.  But they heard from their friends what a great experience it was, and they've seen their friend's images, which is what causes them to contact me in the first place.



So do you have like a test on your website to make sure they are super-chill before you take the gig?  Lol


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## AlanKlein

Why worry or be frustrated by the people who are no good?  Your competitors are those that _are _good.



RoyalCaptures said:


> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!


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## robbins.photo

AlanKlein said:


> Why worry or be frustrated by the people who are no good? Your competitors are those that _are _good.
> 
> 
> 
> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!
Click to expand...


I think maybe the thought process here is that if the people who are only willing to pay $20 for a session couldn't get a session for $20 then they'd have to book a more expensive photographer.  Personally I don't think that percentage is as high as most people believe it to be just from what I've seen.  I think that a lot of the folks who only pay $20 for a photo session are the sort of people to whom if it were priced at $50, $100, $200, etc wouldn't buy one at all.  Instead they'd just snap a few pictures themselves with their cell phones and call it a day.

Now granted I'm not a pro photographer, and have actively sought to avoid becoming one even on a part time basis (and will continue to do so, thank you) - but really I think that wasting time worrying about the fauxtographers out there is just that, a waste of time.  My contention is that even if all of them were to dissapear in a plane flying out of Malaysia tommorow that it really wouldn't make a huge difference to the market as a whole, that the vast majority of the folks hiring them just wouldn't hire a pro at all if they didn't have a dirt cheap option available.  You'd probably get a very small percentage of clients this way, but they would always opt for the cheapest option available and frankly it would never be enough to keep your doors open.  Most likely the most you'd get out of these folks would be a couple of extra trips to McDonalds that year.


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## Civchic

robbins.photo said:


> AlanKlein said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why worry or be frustrated by the people who are no good? Your competitors are those that _are _good.
> 
> 
> 
> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think maybe the thought process here is that if the people who are only willing to pay $20 for a session couldn't get a session for $20 then they'd have to book a more expensive photographer. Personally I don't think that percentage is as high as most people believe it to be just from what I've seen. I think that a lot of the folks who only pay $20 for a photo session are the sort of people to whom if it were priced at $50, $100, $200, etc wouldn't buy one at all. Instead they'd just snap a few pictures themselves with their cell phones and call it a day.
> 
> Now granted I'm not a pro photographer, and have actively sought to avoid becoming one even on a part time basis (and will continue to do so, thank you) - but really I think that wasting time worrying about the fauxtographers out there is just that, a waste of time. My contention is that even if all of them were to dissapear in a plane flying out of Malaysia tommorow that it really wouldn't make a huge difference to the market as a whole, that the vast majority of the folks hiring them just wouldn't hire a pro at all if they didn't have a dirt cheap option available. You'd probably get a very small percentage of clients this way, but they would always opt for the cheapest option available and frankly it would never be enough to keep your doors open. Most likely the most you'd get out of these folks would be a couple of extra trips to McDonalds that year.
Click to expand...


I agree with this 100%.  Part of the reason there is such a proliferation of turrible turrible fauxtographers out there on social media, with "$50 for a 3-hour family photo shoot and 600 images on a CD!" deals is that there is a proliferation of people with $50 who would like something better than their blurry cellphone snaps with 1 out of 6 people looking at the camera, and that guy has red eye.  They aren't going to print and frame.  They're going to tag themselves on the prints on facebook and that's it.  

But it's not like professional family photography is a new thing.  Up until 10 years ago barely anyone got pro shoots done, though - the best you saw were every-five-years at the Sears studio green background posed shots ("Everyone squish in!  Smile!").  Because that cost money.  More than $50, once you got an 11x14 for the wall, with frame, and a couple of 8x10s for the grandmas, and some wallets.  My family had exactly TWO professional photos done, each time that the church directory was published - the church hired a pro to come in and do the sittings for each family, and then you could buy prints.

So if there weren't a bunch of $50 fauxtographers, people like my family just would NOT be buying family photo sessions.  It may be different for landscape and sports/journalism guys, I can see how the market would really impact that business, but for family and wedding photographers, GOOD photographers should still be getting the same quantity and quality of clients as they always have.


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## Steve5D

robbins.photo said:


> I think maybe the thought process here is that if the people who are only willing to pay $20 for a session couldn't get a session for $20 then they'd have to book a more expensive photographer.  Personally I don't think that percentage is as high as most people believe it to be just from what I've seen.  I think that a lot of the folks who only pay $20 for a photo session are the sort of people to whom if it were priced at $50, $100, $200, etc wouldn't buy one at all.  Instead they'd just snap a few pictures themselves with their cell phones and call it a day.



Exactly.

I've shot one wedding in my life. It was for some co-workers. They didn't have a lot of money and were paying for the wedding themselves.

When they first asked me to shoot their wedding, I declined. I'm just not that guy. That's when I learned that they decided they'd have to be content with the photos from the disposable cameras left at each table at the reception.

I shot the wedding for $600.00.

Oftentimes, it's not that people don't want to pay higher prices, but more the simple reality that they can't...


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## tirediron

Steve5D said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I've shot one wedding in my life. It was for some co-workers. They didn't have a lot of money and were paying for the wedding themselves.
> 
> When they first asked me to shoot their wedding, I declined. I'm just not that guy. That's when I learned that they decided they'd have to be content with the photos from the disposable cameras left at each table at the reception.
> 
> I shot the wedding for $600.00.
> 
> Oftentimes, it's not that people don't want to pay higher prices, but more the simple reality that they can't...


There's a big difference between shooting cheap and helping someone out!  My prices are my prices, BUT...  if there's someone I know who "needs" work, and can't afford my rates, I will do special discounts, as long as it is on a non-interference basis with regular paying work and I believe they're genuine (and can be sworn to secrecy).


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## mishele

Steve5D said:


> Ilovemycam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would not want to be shooting anything other than what I want to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that certainly doesn't preclude you being paid for it.
> 
> I'm shooting Goo Goo Dolls, Daughtry and Plain White T's next week, and will be getting paid nicely for it. I freaking _love _concert photography...
Click to expand...


Take me with you!!


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## Steve5D

mishele said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ilovemycam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would not want to be shooting anything other than what I want to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that certainly doesn't preclude you being paid for it.
> 
> I'm shooting Goo Goo Dolls, Daughtry and Plain White T's next week, and will be getting paid nicely for it. I freaking _love _concert photography...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Take me with you!!
Click to expand...


Get down here by noon, a week from today...


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## unpopular

competition is good. unless you're in competition.


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## LCLimages

e.rose said:


> Browncoat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoyalCaptures said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying its bad for them to establish, its just annoying me how many people are willing to charge, even though they are in most cases "in-experienced" and if they took the time to study the art. Maybe I wouldn't be so frustrated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the general public, photography is little more than just an app on their phone. Let that sink in for a little bit, then read on:
> 
> There is no such thing as a bad photographer, only a bad marketer. Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen. If you think your photos are so amazing that people should be lining up to hire you, you're wrong. If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't read anything else in this thread, but I saw this post, because it was above mine.
> 
> "There is no such thing s a bad photographer" -- Totally, 100% disagree. There are BILLIONS of absolutely gut-wrenchingly horrible photographers.
> 
> HOWEVER... "Togs who complain about amateurs all have the same thing in common...they're crappy salesmen." Agreed.
> 
> "If you think people will hire you over someone else because you're more experienced, you're also wrong." Agreed.
> 
> Photo quality only plays a part. BUT... the part it plays, I feel is integral.
> 
> And here's why:
> 
> There are plenty of people who get hired over me, because they're "cheaper". Only difference is, I don't give a sh*t, because if they are gonna hire a photographer with lesser quality, because they're cheaper, they weren't my target client to begin with. The clients I *do* get are super chill and hire me because of the experience I give them and the quality of my images over the other choices they've seen. And I ain't cheap.  But they heard from their friends what a great experience it was, and they've seen their friend's images, which is what causes them to contact me in the first place.
> 
> So you're right.
> 
> People who b*tch about this, are just jaded and probably poor salespeople. There are always going to be shoot and burners, your job is to figure out how to put value to what you're giving your clients in addition to handing them quality images, and then sell them those images when it's all said and done. :sillysmi:
Click to expand...


I partly agree, and partly disagree.  At least in my market, all the selling of myself I've done and promotions and facebook advertising and word of mouth hasn't produced much.  And I am not full of myself, but I've been doing this 6 years and 5 before I even considered trying to make an income off it, and I know damn well I'm "better" in respects of image quality than any other independent photographer established in the area.  Which has doubled lately due to photography being the "trendy" job these days and I am in apparently a very crowded market.

So I met with the enterprise facilitator for the region to see if she could spark any new ideas.  She told me to look up another one on FB who's gotten herself verrry well established in her market roughly 1.5 hrs from me, shooting newborns and children and families, and see if there's anything I could take note of on her page.  So I did.  And they're cute, and some of them are very good, but they are ALL props and trendy poses and giant bows and you literally lose the subject in all the fluff surrounding them.  And then about 50% of her shots have something important wrong with them.  Missing fingers, or toes, or exposure or white balance or they're crooked or whatever.  Everyone misses things sometimes but if I lost half a subject's hand, or something else that really sticks out and makes the image incomplete, that photo is not going to the client and certainly not the internet.  Things are that photogs notice immediately because they're BASICS.

So I met again with the facilitator and pointed those things out.  It's endlessly frustrating to me that someone who clearly hasn't mastered the basics of taking a picture could have herself so booked she's not accepting new clients.  And let me state, I think cute hats and some props or blankets or whatever are fine if it's done well and not overwhelming. And the response I got was "yeah but nobody cares about the quality anymore.  Look at all her cute stuff.  That's what sells."

I wanted to slap her.  It devalues all the practice I've put into my art and the care I take when choosing which images to proof to a client who paid me to be a pro.  But unfortunately it rings a lot of truth.


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