# Doesn't have to do w/ photography, but still important.



## footballfan993 (Sep 4, 2015)

So, I don't know if this is the right area, but the description of this  thread does include legal advice. This doesn't have anything to do wit photography, but still has to do with copyrights, but for video games.

Well today I got an email from my internet service provider (ISP), Charter Communications, saying that there is a notice of a copyright infringement on my account, by either me, or someone else using my internet. but because it is my account, my internet, I am being held responsible.

What happened was that my brother, downloaded Skyrim on his Macbook, so Zenimax Media, who owns the copyright for The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim, sent a "Notice of Copyright Infringement" to Charter, after Charter determined that the IP Adress was linked to my account, they contacted me, informing me of the copyright infringement.

I know for a fact that it was my brother who downloaded this game. The letter from Zenimax, stated that: "  We urge you to take immediate action to stop this infringing activity and immediately inform us of the results of your actions." I told my dad about this, and he didn't say much, other than that my brother should confess. After that I called my brother to tell him about it, he didn't really seem that shocked or worried about it. I told him that I would talk to him when I came home from work.

Personally, even if I tell him to do something about it, he probably won't. For example, my brother didn't vacuum the floors when I asked him to,and he didn't steam clean the carpet in his room, after I told him twice to do it, and gave him 24 hours to steam clean. I'll be surprised if he does do something about it, but I know that after a little while, he'll be go back to downloading illegally again. 
He did use bittorrent to download the game, as was stated in the copyright infringement letter from Zenimax.

I'm just curious, because the internet is under my name, what would happen to me if my brother doesn't confess to his crimes? What if my brother does confess to the crimes, can I still be punishable? Could this affect my credit score or other accounts, even though it is not my fault?


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## The_Traveler (Sep 4, 2015)

He did it under your name, unless you take some action, you're guilty.
Write a letter to your ISP telling them who has used your account for illegal purposes, show your brother the letter before sending.
If no action from your brother, send the letter, giving the ISP the name of the thief and asking Charter to change the IP address and PW for the account to lock your brother out.


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## waday (Sep 4, 2015)

Simple. The results of your actions: You found the person responsible, and let them know that they no longer have access to your internet. You've changed your password.

Seriously, change your password. You pay for it. If he doesn't respect you, he can't use it. Done.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 4, 2015)

Ahh geez, really guys?

Come on now.  He's your brother.  Do what brothers do in a case like this.

Beat the crap out of him.  Oh ya, then change your password and let your ISP know.


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## limr (Sep 4, 2015)

Can you delete the game from his computer yourself? If so, do it and then cut off his access. Steam cleaning the carpets is one thing. Getting you into legal trouble and screwing you over like that is a whole different ball game. You shut that down right away.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 4, 2015)

I don't have access to his computer to delete his game. I did just ask him if he looked up any thing on copyright infringement, and he said yes. His solution to the problem, is to "read what they (Zenimax) said, and tell them we don't know what happened" I then said, "They have proof.", to which he has yet to respond to. But either way, his 'solution' won't work because they have proof, they have my IP Address, the date, and time it was downloaded, everything they need. I won't let my brother escape the fault for this, because if he tries to then that fault is put on me, as the subscriber to the ISP. and I won't let my brother's actions result in my financial instability, and criminal record!


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## robbins.photo (Sep 4, 2015)

footballfan993 said:


> I don't have access to his computer to delete his game. I did just ask him if he looked up any thing on copyright infringement, and he said yes. His solution to the problem, is to "read what they (Zenimax) said, and tell them we don't know what happened" I then said, "They have proof.", to which he has yet to respond to. But either way, his 'solution' won't work because they have proof, they have my IP Address, the date, and time it was downloaded, everything they need. I won't let my brother escape the fault for this, because if he tries to then that fault is put on me, as the subscriber to the ISP. and I won't let my brother's actions result in my financial instability, and criminal record!



Yup.. pretty much.  Most of the gaming companies and people that make movies either have their own internal departments or pay a 3rd party company to troll those download/torrent sites.  They will download any illegal copies and put them on their own servers, so when your system connects to download from them they have your IP address, ISP, who it's registered to, everything.

Then they contact your ISP and let them know that an illegal download has taken place.  Your ISP contacts you, and if you can't put a stop to it and it continues they will usually deny you access.  So time to pull the plug on his internet connection, let your ISP know that it was downloaded without your permission and that you've taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.


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## Gary A. (Sep 5, 2015)

Remember, that what your brother did was theft. Your brother's lack of remorse and inaction to rectify the situation has left you no choice but to change your password and deny him access. I am glad you recognize the difference between right and wrong and have the honor to act accordingly. 

(If you steal from a rich person, or steal from a poor person ... it is still stealing.)


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## vfotog (Sep 5, 2015)

Is your brother older or younger than you? Is he a minor? do you both live with your dad?


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## footballfan993 (Sep 5, 2015)

He is an adult, 20, I'm 22. We don't live with my dad, but we do rent a house from our dad. My dad owns the house, doesn't live there, and we pay rent to live there. The internet bill is in my name therefore is my responsibility.


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## vfotog (Sep 5, 2015)

footballfan993 said:


> He is an adult, 20, I'm 22. We don't live with my dad, but we do rent a house from our dad. My dad owns the house, doesn't live there, and we pay rent to live there. The internet bill is in my name therefore is my responsibility.



I was wondering because if he was a minor living with your dad, they could go after your dad too. so it's just you two that they can go after.


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## SCraig (Sep 5, 2015)

I don't think Charter usees passwords on broadband connections.  I know Comcast, Cox, and Time-Warner don't.

I would, however, make it very clear (as in the form of an instruction and not a request) that as long as you are paying for the internet service, as long as your name is on the contract, then it is going to be used as YOU decide it will be.  The first thing being that this particular game is uninstalled and deleted from the computer while you watch.

Apparently there are multiple points in your residence to connect to the internet (WiFi router?).  If he is using a laptop and WiFi to connect, most routers can be configured to allow only specified MAC addresses.  If I were in that situation I would block his MAC address at the router and he would have no wireless internet access.  It won't stop him from physically plugging his laptop into the point where Charter comes into the residence, but it will make it a LOT harder for him to get to the internet.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 5, 2015)

Well, I did talk to my brother last night after I got done with work. It seems to me, that he still wants to turn a blind eye to this situation. He wants to write to the company, and say that it was him that downloaded it, using my internet. but then to say that he was trying to download a 'wrapper' which according to him, makes it completely legal. (I highly doubt this to be true) He has not sent the letter yet.

I did call Charter's security team to ask them a few questions, but their response was somewhat vague. Surely they don't know what actions the company could take against me/my brother.

I did also talk to my mom about this and of course she wasn't happy. She of course told me that I have to watch out for my brother. Which I do get where she is coming from, but I have someone more important to watch out for, myself. If this situation has to ruin someone's life, it's going to be my brother's not mine. I don't want this to effect my life at all, and if it does, even in the slightest way, I will be beyond pissed at him.

My brother did also say that he wants to talk to Charter and an attorney.


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## RyanLilly (Sep 5, 2015)

Put his laptop in the microwave for a about a 30 seconds, then stick it back on his desk.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 5, 2015)

footballfan993 said:


> Well, I did talk to my brother last night after I got done with work. It seems to me, that he still wants to turn a blind eye to this situation. He wants to write to the company, and say that it was him that downloaded it, using my internet. but then to say that he was trying to download a 'wrapper' which according to him, makes it completely legal. (I highly doubt this to be true) He has not sent the letter yet.
> 
> I did call Charter's security team to ask them a few questions, but their response was somewhat vague. Surely they don't know what actions the company could take against me/my brother.
> 
> ...



It's very doubtful the company will pursue legal action against you, normally the letter to the ISP is more of a cease and desist variety and if it continues they could decide to pull your access.

You can forget about that "wrapper" defense, they know exactly what he downloaded because one of the servers he downloaded it from was there's in the first place, that's how they caught him.  So, apologize to your ISP, make sure he doesn't do anything that stupid again, because anytime he downloads anything illegal odds are good he'll get caught.. again.  First time out your ISP will likely cut you a break, if it continues you'll likely loose internet access.


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## vfotog (Sep 5, 2015)

You called Charter's "security team"? They work for Charter; they are not going to advise you how to steal from Zenimax. Charter got a takedown notice from Zenimax and they are required by law to take it down. If the game isn't removed, if there are more infringements, they can and will shut down your account and disable your connection. Since it is in your name, it's your credit and rep that is affected. Your brother can talk to Charter all he wants, IF they will talk to him, but nothing he says will change their obligation to follow the law. As for getting a lawyer, why exactly? Just delete the damn game and don't steal it again. Is he so stupid that he thinks a game is more expensive than a lawyer? I have no sympathy. You can also tell him to google Zenimax. They sue, so in the long run it's much cheaper to buy product and not f*ck with them. And as a mom, tell your mom that she should be concerned about you too.


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## unpopular (Sep 5, 2015)

meh.


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## vfotog (Sep 5, 2015)

did you read the part that says it's not to be shared? I think posting it is only going to get Zenimax even more angry with you. Personally, I'd delete it.


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## unpopular (Sep 5, 2015)

At this point, I am seeing no indication that you personally are going to get sued; you weren't even supposed to get this email. Honestly, it seems more likely that you'll get a warning letter from Charter, or, at worst, they'll drop your service.

Essentially, Zenimax is saying - hey Charter, one of your customers was being naughty, do something about it or else we can sue you!

But even Charter isn't likely going to get sued. They'll likely file this away in order to build a case against them if there is an abnormal number of violations originating from their customers. Zenimax's lawyers are paid too much to go after every zit-faced kid wanting some sweet Skyrim boobies without paying for it.

I wouldn't necessarily ignore it, mind you. Changing your network password and letting them know your brother is banned from using your connection to download crappy fantasy games isn't a bad idea.

But really, the ball is in Charter's court right now. What they do about this is up to them.

I really would not worry about it. Certainly not right now.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 5, 2015)

Thanks, Vfotog. Well, I have typed up a roommate contract, for my roommates this year, after having a really undesirable one last year. After this copyright issue came to light, I have added an internet usage clause to it, here's what I typed up:

15. INTERNET USAGE
Internet usage is a privilege, not a right. If you are found to be participating in illegal activities or violating the Terms of Service set by Charter Communications, you will be held responsible for your actions, and any consequences that may come from your actions (paying fines, court fees, etc). If you are found using the internet for illegal activities, (using torrents, illegally downloading music, movies, etc) your internet access will be suspended or terminated for as long a time as the account holder deems necessary. During your suspension/termination, you are still responsible for paying the internet bill. 

Unpopular, thanks, however, Zenimax can subpeona for my info from Charter, and they can then sue me.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 5, 2015)

footballfan993 said:


> Thanks, Vfotog. Well, I have typed up a roommate contract, for my roommates this year, after having a really undesirable one last year. After this copyright issue came to light, I have added an internet usage clause to it, here's what I typed up:
> 
> 15. INTERNET USAGE
> Internet usage is a privilege, not a right. If you are found to be participating in illegal activities or violating the Terms of Service set by Charter Communications, you will be held responsible for your actions, and any consequences that may come from your actions (paying fines, court fees, etc). If you are found using the internet for illegal activities, (using torrents, illegally downloading music, movies, etc) your internet access will be suspended or terminated for as long a time as the account holder deems necessary. During your suspension/termination, you are still responsible for paying the internet bill.
> ...



Yes, they can.. but they won't.  I used to work in Risk Assessment - the thing is that it isn't cost effective for Zenimax to sue you.   If they wanted to they could and they would almost certainly win, but to bring a suit like this against everyone that pirates there software isn't cost effective for them, so instead they go after the ISP.  The ISP will then either convince you to stop or shut off your access so they won't get sued. 

So yes, a roommate contact is probably a good idea, and yes you do want to put a stop to illegal internet usage.  But I don't think you need to worry about them coming after you legally.  That would be an exceedingly rare occurrence indeed.


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## unpopular (Sep 5, 2015)

Of course they can sue you! (well, maybe... the more I think about it the more complicated it becomes).

But as Robbins says, they won't. Even if they did sue you and won that doesn't mean that the court will award what they're suing for, and it's equally likely (if not certain in your case) that they'd never actually recover their expenses.

Like I said, you probably don't want to ignore it. But as of right now, you're panicking over nothing. In these sort of situations you need to stay focused on the facts at hand: Charter has received a DMCA complaint concerning some activity on your account. As of right now, this does not affect you. That could change. But right now, that's what you need to focus on. If they subpoena, or if you get a letter from Zenimax/Bethesda, that's when you need to start worrying about getting an attorney. Until then, this is between them and Charter.

Also, while Zenimax/Bethesda is pretty sue happy, I haven't found one, single report of an individual being sued. They tried to sue Mojang for a game titled "Scrolls" (and was subsequently thrown out before trial, no surprises there) and now claims against Oculus over IP.

But I looked for cases where Zenimax has attempted to sue individuals. I'm not sure where vfotog is getting this from.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 5, 2015)

Thanks, I am a bit worried, about this happening again, because my brother has downloaded things at my parents house as well, but they so far haven't heard any complaints. I'm worried, that even though I tell him to stop, that after some time, that he may start to do it again. I have a feeling that he's that stubborn of a person, he seems like the type to resume illegal downloads, but that is why I have decided to add that clause to the roommate agreement, and I'm having my brother sign one too, along with the other roommate. While talking to my sister about this, she said that I shouldn't deny him internet access because "he's a college student". Personally I don't care that he's a college student or my brother, if what you are doing could effect me, I will take action, in this case, threatening the access of internet. I don't really care that he's downloading things illegal, what I care more is that he's downloading things illegally using MY internet, which could have consequences towards me. He can continue downloading things, but not using my internet.


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## AlanKlein (Sep 5, 2015)

Sounds like he should take responsibility and clean his own room.   

But you're not going to change him.  So change yourself.


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## unpopular (Sep 5, 2015)

Well, you could have him put the service into his name so that the liability is his. 

For added protection, have him sign a notarized document that states that he will assume all responsibility for the network, including illegally obtained software.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 6, 2015)

The reason the internet is in my name is because I was living there for a year before he was.


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## waday (Sep 6, 2015)

Seriously, lock him out. Even if it's only for a few days or weeks. Or a month. Maybe it'll scare him enough to stop doing it, or to listen to you.

College students think they're invincible, and it's usually a rude awakening to the real world.

But, about that password, make it a minimum of 12 characters, including at least one lower case, upper case, number, and symbol.


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## vfotog (Sep 6, 2015)

unpopular said:


> Of course they can sue you! (well, maybe... the more I think about it the more complicated it becomes).
> 
> But as Robbins says, they won't. Even if they did sue you and won that doesn't mean that the court will award what they're suing for, and it's equally likely (if not certain in your case) that they'd never actually recover their expenses.
> 
> ...



Don't put words in my mouth. I said Zenimax sues and they do. I did not say they sue everyone, or that they sue individuals. They can, but that doesn't mean they will. But there's no reason to pretend there isn't a problem that needs to be dealt with. Charter got a DMCA takedown notice. They send out letters because if they don't deal with infringers, they lose their safe harbor status and become liable for the infringements. So they would much rather lose some infringing customers cos it's much cheaper than the alternative. No the OP is not likely to be sued but it is possible. OTOH, with roommates and an irresponsible brother, there's a very good chance of further infringements. That would force Charter's hand and his service is most likely going to be disconnected. That's not really convenient for most people and he might actually want or need their services now or in the future.  The OP at least has the sense to try and prevent future infringements.


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## unpopular (Sep 6, 2015)

And likewise, I never said to "pretend there isn't a problem" only that at this point the legal issues are between Charter and Zenimax.

Charter probably gets hundreds, or even thousands of these notices every month. For the OP this is a scary incident with scary letters authored by scary lawyers. For Charter though, it's everyday business. I doubt that anyone is sitting around in a board room debating over what to do about Footballfan993.

I'm sure that they have a set procedure of how to handle these things.

BTW - (I am not an attorney, the following is not legal advise) I did some brief poking around, and it would seem difficult to even recovery statutory damages in cases of individual piracy. And in your case specifically, as far as I am understanding it, they couldn't since statutory damages can only be recovered if the violation is "willful". What "willful" means exactly is pretty vague, but having someone unknowingly download software from your network certainly does not constitute that. This is why Zenimax gives Charter notice. 

Now, allowing your brother to use the network in the future is another case.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 6, 2015)

Hilourity ensued today!

So this morning before work, I tried to change the password for the router, I did change it, but I was unable to reconnect to it before I left for work. So my brother is currently on the phone, and virtual computer with tech support resetting my router! And I think he paid for it too! But he did use my parents credit card.


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## medic2230 (Sep 6, 2015)

So when he resets it you won't know what the password is?


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## snowbear (Sep 6, 2015)

Sledgehammer his fingers; that should keep him out.  

<jk>


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## vintagesnaps (Sep 7, 2015)

Shouldn't your brother maybe be getting his own internet connection? If one is thru the phone company, have the other one thru the cable company (or whatever's available in your area) in his name and he's responsible for the bill.

If he keeps pirating games and the service provider cuts off the service then let him be the one who's going to be spending a lot of time at the library getting school work done... (and why does he have access to your parents' credit card?? no wonder your mom wasn't too happy about this).

It would be a double expense to have two separate connections if that's even an option, and I thought instead maybe you could have it put in his name instead of yours, but then I suppose you both could end up with no internet connection eventually unless he learns to knock it off.


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## Tailgunner (Sep 7, 2015)

Sounds like someone fishing for a confession. I mean did anyone send you something official through the mail, something like a case and desist letter? Your ISP emailed you informing you of the situation, but did they give you some terms...confess or buy the game or go to jail,? I'm just trying to understand the hysteria.


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## footballfan993 (Sep 8, 2015)

When he reseted the router, I will go on later, while he's gone, and he configure the router, to my liking, set up the password I want, etc.

Vintagesnaps, WE don't have a telephone line or TV, we only have internet, from Charter, and it is a whole house that we have, not an apartment, I'm not sure if you can have two separate ISPs in the same house hold. But that is a good plan, for him to get his illegal games. The reason why we have access to my parent's credit card, is because we are authorized users on their account, my brother does have a debit card for his own personal bank account, but I have yet to see him use it.

Tail gunner, I didn't get an official notice asking to confess or that jail time may happen, what the letter from Charter did state was to try to find out who illegally downloaded the files, and to tell them what I have done to avoid illegal downloads from happening again.


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