# Well Then, Shall We Just Let the Blind Lead the Blind?



## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

It seems. No, it is a reality, the ever popular and reoccurring thread passes through the halls of TPF that people are rude with their C&C.  For arguments sake, lets call them pros.  Even though I know many, myself included, are not in fact, making any money out of photography and it is considered a hobby.  In the same breath, they are seasoned, reasonable individuals and are passionate about photography.  This assertion is unfairly misdirected mostly towards a small contingent of astute observers IMO.  There are too many to mention and I wouldn't want to leave someone out, so go figure that one out on your own.

There is an even smaller circle of jerks that like to run amuck and merely stir the pot for a reaction.  Guess what?  Theyre the ones youre bitchin about.  
But guess what again?  Yer bitchin makes me want to stop altogether.  WTF do I get out of this?  A couple of likes, a few giggles, catch a mistake, put someone in their place, the occasional vent?  Its not that simple, at all.  I like to share the wealth to the deserving, pay it forward so to speak.  Ive put a lot of effort to learn a few things about photography and it pleases me to pass that on to those willing to listen.

It may seem that there is a lot of ME in the previous paragraph, but that is not the intent.  I know there are many others on this forum, which I have respect for, that are of a similar mindset.  Some may actually be pros, but many are also just regular folk that know a thing or two.  I thought of finding some of my better and some of my lesser C&Cs as examples.  Some are very good and some are a waste of time.  Everyone oscillates.  But you can do your own damn searching.

So the question remains..  Why do the pros hang out in the Beginners forum?  Ill answer the question with another question.  Why would you take advice from someone that hardly knows any more than you?  


Notice:  this post is on behalf of the rude, curt, blunt & ostentatious posters of C&C............. and for gsgary.


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## frisii (Aug 1, 2011)

kundalini said:


> .......... and for gsgary.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

Kundalini, at risk of making a total idiot out of myself, I have to say I agree and respectfully disagree with you.

Yes, C&C shouldn't come off as trolling, but I honestly think that rarely happens on this forum. I think most of the problems arise due to the poster asking for the C&C jumping the gun and assuming they're right every time they hear "you shouldn't have" or "It's rarely a good idea to.." 
I've started so many arguments outside this forum by simply stating that a photo didn't do anything for me it's absurd, so I've become a little tired of it. It makes me worry that the seasoned users on this forum will just give up on criticism altogether, which would suck because I've highly benefited from it.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

Yup, this forum is interesting. 

It's a range from complete idiots, not worth your time, to those very eager to learn and have valuable discussions with.

 It's a range of people best ignored, to the best to listen too. 

It's a range of class clowns to boring always serious people. 

It's a group of people that complain about drama, but continually add to it, and act all innocent.

 Yup, this forum is made up of people of all kinds. 

Much like the real world. 

You can even choose to ignore people you don't like, or argue with them, just like real life!


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Yup, this forum is interesting.
> 
> It's a range from complete idiots, not worth your time, to those very eager to learn and have valuable discussions with.
> 
> ...



Agreed.

Kun, it's FRUSTRATING as HELL.  I get it.  It frustrates me even more to know how much *I've* grown from all of your (you rude, bitchy, trolling, mean, hobby-proists ) C&C and tips, and I don't recall ever getting defensive about it once.  If I ever came *off* that way I think it was established at some point in the thread that it was because I was confused, not resisting.  And you know... I'm confused a lot.  :lmao:

To know how much I've grown in just a short year and a half (not that I don't have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go...), taking criticism as humbly as possible and with great consideration for my next shoot, and then seeing newbies come on and complain that someone saying their image was uninteresting, or lacked contrast, or wasn't straight, or that they cut this or that off... is rude.  That's frustrating for *me* to see.

Because *I'M* not done learning yet.  And these idiots are chasing all of you rude people off that I'm still benefitting from.  And yes.  There's a lot of "me" in that statement.  

I even try to help here and there when I can, but when it comes down to someone who thinks they're God's gift to photography after 2 days of owning a camera, I just put them on a mental ignore list.

I think if all of you OOOH so rude seasoned hobby-proists would just ignore the idiots... they'll 1. Go away.  2. The people that need the help and WANT the help, GET the help, because everyone is ignoring the "YOU ARE SOOOOOO RUDE!" drama thread and applying their know-how elsewhere and 3. Uh.  Well.  There was a 3.  I don't remember now.

Don't give up on the willing newbs! :sillysmi:  And don't give up on us semi-newbs either 

There are still people willing to accept your forward payment... you just gotta machete your way through the weeds to find the growing flowers.


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2011)

This is typical;

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

KmH said:


> This is typical;
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html



Dear lord.  :roll:

Bitter.  Stop being such a jackassy *****.  How dare you suggest such things.


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## nyamy (Aug 1, 2011)

yes, please dont give up on all us newbies!
I may know very little about photography, but I do moderate a different forum. and I am constantly helping out the newbies, explaining the same things over and over. sometimes I do request that they search the faqs because it can get tedious, especially when I sense that someone really just wants me to do all their work. why do I do it? because others have helped me and I like to help the next wave. I grow from explaining the same thing in different ways. it feels good. lots of reasons and many are selfish but hey, we all have many layers of motives. so I really dont care if someone enjoys poking fun at my bad pics while helping me grow my skills. if thats the price I pay for otherwise free education, so be it. and the truth is, I have never gotten any rude comments here, and I know the pics I post are garbage compared to most of the images here.
so thanks to all of you 'pros' for patiently urging me on. and for the occasional laugh at the silliness (ok, so I'm one of the 'boring/serious ones here)


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## Gaerek (Aug 1, 2011)

KmH said:


> This is typical;
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html



It's sad when people can find a photo forum, but can't type in a simple google search...

I'm probably known as one of those that sometimes stirs sh*t up. I'm opinionated. I know what know, and I know what I like. I also know quite a bit about photography. I've been offering less and less advice for the exact reason Keith is showing right there. I don't know if I'll get my head bit off, or if someone will actually thank me for the time I put into helping them. The generation I'm in, unfortunately, is the generation of entitlement. I hate that. I've worked for everything I have. I had a mentor early in my photographic life, but I paid that mentorship back by being the reflector holder, or running the photo printing machine, or any other number of photography related, but not actually shooting, jobs. Not once did I get paid in cash, just film, processing and advice. I've learned a lot in 13 years. I don't make money on photography, and frankly, I don't want to either. However, I certainly don't mind sharing what I know with those willing to accept it.

Here's a thread I made about a year and a half ago, to try to combat what we're talking about now. It helped a bit at the time, but obviously, it's affects have worn off. It got locked about a year ago, due to some jackass who was basically thread stalking me and a couple other members. However, it's still worth a read, and a lot of the comments are very helpful in adding to what I was trying to say.

I have two very big pet peeves. If you want a rude reaction from me, here's how to do it:

1) Be too big for your britches. If you cannot take critique, advice, etc, because you are oh so awesome (even though you aren't), I WILL call you out.

2) If you have honesty/integrity issues. If you don't have your integrity, what do you have? Trying to misrepresent yourself, or lie, or anything else like that, I WILL call you out.

I try not to be rude. I give fair and honest, but blunt, and to the point critique. I won't say "Your shot sucks" without explaining why. If you cannot take the heat, do not post pictures here. Post them on Facebook, or print them out to show your friends and family. You won't learn anything, but hey, at least you'll feel good about yourself.


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## Sw1tchFX (Aug 1, 2011)

ALOT of the crit online for photo forums is completely bogus, and people post pictures up mostly for a pat on the back. 

I quit posting pictures for serious crit on here long ago. And it's hard take it seriously when people say things like "i like this, but I don't know why" or their version of crit is how they would reshoot the picture, not talking at all about what the photographer already did (which is the purpose of critique).


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## Derrel (Aug 1, 2011)

Many people are here with a year's worth of experience. They know EVERYTHING about photography. Heck, they're already shooting engagement sessions, weddings, and portrait commissions. Most know how to operate their cameras and to ram images through Lightroom en mass, yet they often get really,really bent out of shape if it is suggested that they study photography. These are the people who get really,really irate and complain to the moderators when their work isn't lauded and praised. They want affirmation; after all they are "new pros", taking money for shooting photos. When told the real truth about their photos,many of these people get VERY agitated, and immediately begin ad hominem attacks on the C&C givers. They even begin posts complaining about how harsh the C&C they have received is. These people cause a lot of conflict here. With their year of experience or so, they feel slighted if ANYTHING is pointed out with their technique, methods, or understanding of concepts.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 1, 2011)

I think we are all guilty including you K.  Now what can we do to change this?  I am at the point where I pretty much ignore almost every post unless the poster is another active member, or the topic is so hot.   Once in a while I reply to newer members but not often.  Can people please stop posting their pictures on the beginners section unless you are a complete noob?


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 1, 2011)

I wonder who that person is you mentioned Derrel?  Could it be me?


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I think we are all guilty including you K. .....


Guilty of what, exactly. Starting a ***** fest? Although it's still fairly sharp, my memory does fail me from time to time. Please point me to the errors of my ways Schwetty.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 1, 2011)

I didnt mean like that, I was just saying we all have done what you explained.


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## Derrel (Aug 1, 2011)

Kundalini,
   Your original post and its exact, intended meaning is a bit unclear to me. Honestly, your exact point of view is not coming through clearly. Are you suggesting that more experienced posters LET the "blind lead the blind"? It seems that you are suggesting or hinting that it might be a good idea for the blind to lead the blind, at one level, and at another level, you say you are answering the question with another question, which is, why would you take advice from a person who knows only a little bit more than you? So, pardon my honest confusion...I'm not really clear about what your point of view is. Ogthers are commenting in this thread about posting images in the beginner's forum, which some have taken to calling "the dumping ground"...again...I am not quite sure what it is you wish to accomplish with this post. The OP just doesn't seem to be clearly articulating a specific point that we can discuss. The manner in which your post is written seems somewhat confusing to me. It seems as if it could be interpreted in two wildly different, disparate ways!!!


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

Certainly not out of disparation Derrel, but most certainly out of frustration. 

Are we going to watch a Journey vid now?



for the Pop scene......







for those with a soul......


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## frisii (Aug 1, 2011)

Ask questions. For non-tech posts (the tech versus art discussion has been ongoing). Respond to subjective (vague) C&C requests by asking questions of the OP. Based on a supposition that the OP already has the answers inside them and is trying to connect with themselves by requesting others try to thought read.


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## pgriz (Aug 1, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Kundalini,
> Your original post and its exact, intended meaning is a bit unclear to me. Honestly, your exact point of view is not coming through clearly. Are you suggesting that more experienced posters LET the "blind lead the blind"? It seems that you are suggesting or hinting that it might be a good idea for the blind to lead the blind, at one level, and at another level, you say you are answering the question with another question, which is, why would you take advice from a person who knows only a little bit more than you? So, pardon my honest confusion...I'm not really clear about what your point of view is. Ogthers are commenting in this thread about posting images in the beginner's forum, which some have taken to calling "the dumping ground"...again...I am not quite sure what it is you wish to accomplish with this post. The OP just doesn't seem to be clearly articulating a specific point that we can discuss. The manner in which your post is written seems somewhat confusing to me. It seems as if it could be interpreted in two wildly different, disparate ways!!!



_Hey Derrel, if yer gonna be sarcastic, use Comic SANS - it da rule!  Sheesh.  How are the newbies ever gonna learn, when even the vets don't follow the rules?


_


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## The_Traveler (Aug 1, 2011)

kundalini said:


> Why do the &#8220;pros&#8221; hang out in the Beginners forum?



I skipped most of the stuff in this thread so please excuse me if I'm duplicating what other people say.
Regardless of my own experience, ability or status, I have some distinct opinions about photography and have no difficulty in expressing them. 

I come here because the other Forum I hand out on has very competent photographers and so C/C is rarely needed. 
I get a kick out of helping beginners and I also think that the process of looking at and formulating opinions about a lot of pictures is good for my own C/C skills. 
Often I will re-edit a posted picture but never join in the discussion just because it has gone past where anything I could say would be useful.
I post here every once in a while, not to get any comments but because I think I should make myself the target for C/C to be fair.


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## Derrel (Aug 1, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Kundalini,
> ...



Just to be one hundred percent clear, my post quoted above was not sarcastic. I was actually asking Kundalini to clarify his original post. Unfortunately, the two videos he posted in reply didn't really serve to illuminate with certainty. I honestly am not **quite**sure where Kundalini is coming from/going to, with his post. I've been away for about four days....maybe I missed something very recent...yet still, I am not really sure of what the original post is really "about". Is it a call to go our separate ways, as Journey sang? Is it a call to simply stop offering advice to newcomers? Is it designed for beginners to be made aware that taking advice from people who know only a bit more is not a good idea? Maybe I'm just being exceptionally dense, but I'm not quite really **sure** what the O.P. was truly about.


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## joealcantar (Aug 1, 2011)

KmH said:


> This is typical;
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html


-
2nd that had to help out the girl in the PM section to avert the pointless comments. 
-
Shoot well, Joe


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## pgriz (Aug 1, 2011)

Thinking about this stuff some more, it appears that to get better C&C on images posted, maybe we need to ask the OP (no, not Kundalini, but the many newbies that start posting 495 photos all at once and ask for C&C) some questions before we invest much energy in giving the C&C. Questions such as:
1) What was your vision when you made this image?
2) What did you intend the audience to see or feel?
3) How did you go about achieving your goal?
4) What area(s) do you feel you did not succeed in and are asking for help on?

What do you think? Would asking these four questions help the discussion, or kill it?


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Maybe I'm just being exceptionally dense, but I'm not quite really **sure** what the O.P. was truly about.








Derrel, don't play the goon.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Thinking about this stuff some more, it appears that to get better C&C on images posted, maybe we need to ask the OP (no, not Kundalini, but the many newbies that start posting 495 photos all at once and ask for C&C) some questions before we invest much energy in giving the C&C. Questions such as:
> 1) What was your vision when you made this image?
> 2) What did you intend the audience to see or feel?
> 3) How did you go about achieving your goal?
> ...



+1 to that. Every time I post a picture on this forum I provide a reason for doing so and some basic EXIF data and of course my opinions. Not just "pix for cc", and dump several unrelated pictures with no motives.


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## mc1979 (Aug 2, 2011)

I've been wanting to comment on this post but was never where I could sit still long enough to do so. So here goes... All that follows is from a complete newbie to photography and this forum as of March of this year, so you can take it with a grain of salt of you want.

When I first started really wanting to get into photography this year,  I joined another forum, stayed there for about two weeks, didn't really learn alot. I came across TPF by Google. Since finding TPF, this is where I have stayed. This forum isn't AS strict with some things like the other one was and there are alot more here who put a lot of time into helping us noobs learn. 

If anyone sticks around here long they will learn that there is a lot of knowledge in this forum. Certain names stick out such as you Kundalini, KmH, Derrel, Bitter Jeweler, Mishele, The Traveler, and Kerbouchard ( spelling?), Schwettylens, and these are just a few to me that stick out, there are others and I know I have left some out so forgive me. And in just this short list, I have seen some great critique, comments, and had a lot of info provided to me. 

My point in my post is this, I would hate, hate, hate to see any of you people leave this forum. Yes there are a few immature posters on here, and of those immature posters some that so obviously love to stir the pot but won't admit they love to do it, but for every one of those there are more people here that do want to learn and will take constructive criticism without starting a ***** fest over it. 

Here lately there has been a pissing match on here almost every day. I would be lying if I said I didn't find some of it pure entertainment, hell it's what keeps me from being so damn bored in my down time at work. But that's human nature I guess, all of us deep down like a little drama now and then or else we wouldn't have 75 pages worth of bullsh!t.
I do hate it when I post something for C & C and the people who I respect and want their opinions are too busy nagging back and forth to comment on my pics, because I am here to learn and I want feedback...good or bad!

Anyways, it just seemed by your OP that maybe you were thinking of giving up this forum, and I just hope that doesn't become the consensus of all you seasoned, experienced photographers... we who really want to learn, need you here!


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## MWC2 (Aug 2, 2011)

First I just want to point out I'm replying to this thread from my phone so please forgive any typos, stupid auto-correct 

I've been seriously learning about my camera and photography since April of last year, I come here to learn and have others tell me what I am doing right and more importantly what I am doing wrong and how to make it better.  I've learned how to get my images sharp, how to avoid motion blur, proper exposure and about correct white balance.  I post pictures for CC and I read the replies and thank everyone who takes time out of their day to help point me in the right direction, I hope I've never come off as "know it all". I also post some CC on other's images if there is something I see that looks wrong to me.  Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, such is life but I take it all as a learning experience.  

I do hope that those that have more talent and knowledge than I continue to offer their CC on mine and other's images, without them I'd still think my green skinned, blurry snap shots of my children were AMAZING!!  (my husband and children thank you all)


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## ghache (Aug 2, 2011)




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## oldmacman (Aug 2, 2011)

I am very similar in rationale to The_Traveler when it comes to my reasons for providing C&C or edits. As an art teacher I have to provide critique on a daily basis with students and the observations made here are great practice. It helps keep your eyes sharp. I read a lot more than I comment because any C&C I could provide has already been covered (several times) by other posts. I do like to read what other people think as it sometimes affects that way I perceive an image.

And same rationale for posting images. If I am providing C&C I post so that others can have an opportunity. It also shows, I hope, where my skills are in relation to my comments.


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## pgriz (Aug 2, 2011)

ghache said:


>




Hmmmm...  Maybe it's time.

1) What was your vision when you made this image?
2) What did you intend the audience to see or feel?
3) How did you go about achieving your goal?
4) What area(s) do you feel you did not succeed in and are asking for help on?


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## vtf (Aug 2, 2011)

You guys can rant all you want  but from someone who really appreciates your critiques, *a Sincere Thank You!
*There are too many great helpers to list and I'm sure I'd leave someone out so understand when I create a thread I look for each of you to comment, to me it's an honor whether it's good or bad. Most of those I admire have already posted here, a few still haven't.
*Thank You again*.
:thumbup:


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## Vtec44 (Aug 2, 2011)

If it's not because of this forum, I would still be out there thinking I'm this generation's Ansel Adams!  lol  j/k  But yeah, I do actually put in some thoughts when taking a photo because of all the "rudeness" here.  I don't want to get my ass chewed out for posting crap. hahahah


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 2, 2011)

mc1979, you are too nice to put my name on that list.  Really, I post a lot because just like you, I am bored at work (read my signature).  Just like MWC2, I picked up my camera in April 2010. So really, I am just a noob.

Yes, I am very guilty with all of the drama on this forum, what can I do to fix this?


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## manaheim (Aug 3, 2011)

heh.  A variation on the other thread... sorta.

I think everyone sorta beats around the bush on this all the time because they're trying to be nice or something, but cutting right to the bone... here it is...

The average poster on here is, as someone said, looking for a pat on the back... not really looking to learn so much as looking to receive affirmation that they're god-like photo abilities that they picked up in the past three months makes them the A#1 best candidate to be a wedding photographer, mom with camera, whatever.

There's a second level here... slightly smaller than the first... that are people who have gone beyond the total amateur level, but are basically sophomores in photography.  They know enough to know that they're better than the total noobs, but don't know enough to know how little they know.  These people are a dangerous group because they come across with great wisdom, but really have essentially no clue what they're talking about... and the first group listens to them.  They poison people's minds by making them think stupid things like a single bit of overexposure kills the image, or that the photo must always be analyzed against the rule of thirds, or whatever.  They absolutely cripple people with their technical nitpicks and "I like this photo, therefore it is good" foolishness.

There are people on here with a ton of clue, but mostly they keep quiet.  For many, It's just not worth the irritation of dealing with all the ignorance and arrogance.

As some oldsters around here will say "It was different before"... I certainly felt that way, as I learned a TON from being on here way back when... but as I've had to actually UN-LEARN quite a bit of the corrupted ideas this forum tends to drive into people, I wonder if perhaps it really wasn't all that different after all.


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## Geaux (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's the only thing I'll add to this thread.  It's the thing I think about the most when I see the regulars around here jumping on noobs for asking the same questions over and over.  I especially love it when others on here jump on the noobs for asking VERY basic questions about exposure, flash, etc.

Here is the description of this forums:


> "Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Don&#8217;t be shy! Talk to other beginners and *ask all your basic photographic questions here.* Show us some of the photos you have taken so far and get some review - so you can learn where there is room for improvement!"



No wonder noobs ask basic questions, maybe they should change it to "Search your basic questions before asking.." 

On the other hand, I've learned a lot from these forums.  Mostly from reading others critiques, judging what others do wrong, reading articles online etc.  I've posted quite a few photo threads for CC with minimal CC, but it is what it is.  I'm not part of the "clique" yet lol


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## mickmac (Aug 3, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with taking the piss out of someone if it's done in a friendly way.


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## OrionsByte (Aug 3, 2011)

I've never understood why someone would take the time to register for a forum, wait for the confirmation email, compose a post, and wait for responses instead of just typing a few words in to Google.  It seriously perplexes me.

Yes, this is the age of entitlement when everyone in their 30's and down thinks that they somehow deserve to be coddled through everything, combined with a bizarre form of laziness where people will go to an absurd amount of effort to avoid... effort.  It's "the customer is always right" run amok.  "You have it, I need it, what's the problem?"

This is not the only forum (or general community for that matter) to exhibit this behavior - it happens everywhere.  Pick a random video game and lurk in the forums for a while.  People may be asking what weapon or character class is "the best" instead of what camera to buy, but the underlying _theme_ is exactly the same.  They want the benefits or knowledge without the legwork.

There was another post on TPF a while back... I can't remember who said it (it's probably been said more than once anyways) but the gist of it was, "Why should I put more effort in to critiquing your photo than you put in to taking it?"  I think that's the disconnect between the newbies and the seasoned members, in this community or any other.  The neophytes honestly expect someone to come in and write sixteen paragraphs about photographic theory and artistic expression to explain the technical and aesthetic high and low points of the two dozen photos they posted, so when what they get instead is, "Out of focus, underexposed, centered," they think you're being rude.  I'll put that differently - it's not necessarily _what_ is being said, it's _how_ it's being said; the _terseness_ of it.  I mean, how _dare_ you not spend half your day personally escorting them through their journey to become the next Big Photographer!  How dare you summarize your critique in five words when you could have written five _pages_!  It's right back to that entitlement attitude - as far as they're concerned, they _deserve_ a lengthy response from a seasoned pro.  "You have the knowledge, I need it, what's the problem?  You're an ass!"

That doesn't mean we should do anything differently; I don't think it's in humanity's best interest to foster that kind of attitude.  The only suggestion I have for people like Kundalini who get fed up with people taking issue with their critiques is just to let it go.  I've walked away from more than a couple arguments on one thread or another because it's just not worth my time to bicker with someone over some misunderstood statement or differing opinion.  I'm also more than willing to admit when I made a mistake if necessary, but I [try to] resist the urge to try to get the last word in or become defensive, because in the end I don't care what that person thinks of me.

There's one other thing to consider as well though.  One comment that I see a lot, and Kundalini kind of hinted at, is "why are you even in the beginner's forum?"  I think some people expect to drop in to the beginner's forum and be critiqued by their _peers_ and not their _superiors._  They figure that with enough blind people, eventually they'll all get _somewhere,_ and they'll all start to see just a little, and then they can keep progressing from peer group to peer group.  They think to themselves, "Where can I go to be with other photographers of similar skill level?" So the beginner's forum becomes this false "safe haven" where people who might even know that they're not very good yet figure they can post their photos without fear of being ridiculed by someone far more talented.  It might come as a bit of a shock to them to see professional-level critiques coming at them when they expected beginner-level critiques.  Does that make sense?  Again, I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to do anything about it, but I think it's helpful to see things from their perspective sometimes, and I think this is just one possible newbie perspective (though it's far less common than the entitlement crowd).

I'm really glad that there are some seasoned folks on here that really know what they're doing that are willing to spend some time with people who are just starting out.  Thing is though, if they're not receptive to your help, they are not your responsibility.  Go ahead and preach, but if they don't want to hear the sermon, don't bother condemning to hell - they'll get there on their own.


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## DDGphotos (Aug 3, 2011)

I love it ALL   you give me all the JERKS, Rude, angry, and the bitter Wanna-bee's! ! ! !  I might be a newbe to THIS SITE, but when you see my locations I get sent to shoot OR BETTER WHO I SHOOT   -  I will be happy to share tips, trade secrets, and experience! ! ! ! 


MU  HAHAHAHAHA


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## Raian-san (Aug 3, 2011)

We are all guilty of it. There is NOO median in this forum. Either the photos is really good that people comment on, or photos that are bad people comment on. There's no in-between on here.

You complain about it but all the "Pros" responds to the newbie threads a lot more than to help average photographer in their thread. If you really want to improve this community, then respond to people who actually have done their work and actually trying to improve their photos instead of wasting your time trying to improve people who just signed up for the day and never even come back to their own thread. I'm new myself but whenever I post up something, I rarely get responds or encouragement to make me want to improve. When I first started, I would get a lot more respond when my pictures are pretty bad. 

This is one of the reason I don't even care much about this forum anymore. People can't even showcase their photos to people and having people responds unless it's something bad. Why can't you encourage them and tell them their photos is alright, make some adjustment and etc. You guys only respond to people who's begging in needs of your advice. Spend more time actually helping the people who's actually dedicating to improve their work.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 3, 2011)

kundalini said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > I think we are all guilty including you K. .....
> ...



How about http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...-then-shall-we-just-let-blind-lead-blind.html ?


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

OrionsByte said:


> I've never understood why someone would take the time to register for a forum, wait for the confirmation email, compose a post, and wait for responses instead of just typing a few words in to Google.  It seriously perplexes me.



Google requires that you know the right question to ask to get the right answer and that you already know certain key facts in order to be able to filter the search results that it gives you. And simply put, many newer people to a hobby simply don't know the right question to ask - ergo they ask someone rather than something (there is also the social aspect in that people prefer to ask people not machines). 





OrionsByte said:


> "Why should I put more effort in to critiquing your photo than you put in to taking it?"



To my mind the more important question is why do you feel that you should do? This line always comes back to the same argument that the person making it is bored with the current dominate forum thread content, and yet is unable/unwilling to generate their own discussions. Thus they take their bored rage out on the people who are forming less than stella threads or less than ideal threads (in the persons own opinion).
There is no pressure for anyone to answer any thread on the site and learning the simple method of self filtering what to and what not to reply to is a good measure. If you find that the site no longer is giving you the threads you want you can either slip away or generate your own - there are many here who clearly want this "higher level" discussions, but only a few of them seem willing to actually put the effort into starting them.




OrionsByte said:


> I mean, how _dare_ you not spend half your day personally escorting them through their journey to become the next Big Photographer!  How dare you summarize your critique in five words when you could have written five _pages_!  It's right back to that entitlement attitude - as far as they're concerned, they _deserve_ a lengthy response from a seasoned pro.  "You have the knowledge, I need it, what's the problem?  You're an ass!"



Actually this kind of response only comes when people ask a question and are told to go ask it somewhere else (ie go google it - which when you think of it is a way of saying to that person that they are not welcome on the site).


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## shortpants (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm pretty new here, but not to photography, not that that makes me any good either  I appreciate those who take the time to give honest feedback. Obviously that's not what everyone is looking for, given the amount of drive by posters who never return. I just wouldn't bother with them, it's a waste of time. Give advice to those who want it. :thumbup:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

This forum is a huge database of information. Just like a library. In a library, there is a librarian, and a card catalogue. If you continually walk by the card catalogue, and go straight to the librarian, I am sure the librarian will eventually point you to the card catalogue. The librarian is NOT there to walk each patron directly to the information they seek. In school, everyone should have been taught how to do research. In higher education, there are  required courses for credit that are "Independant Study".

What I see here, and on other forums is just sheer LAZINESS. People here want exact answers to specific questions and are not willing to do some leg work, and get a well rounded, deeper understanding of the subject. As a result their knowledge is very shallow and pretty useless.

 The photo forum will only get people so far. They will platuea quickly at an average level. People come on here everyday and say they have Passion for photography. But they don't, really. It just sounds cool. If they were truly that passionate, they would be spending their time elsewhere, gather as much information as the can, from better sources.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Yup, this forum is interesting.
> 
> It's a range from complete idiots, not worth your time, to those very eager to learn and have valuable discussions with.
> 
> ...



Is this a multiple choice personality test?


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

Hmmm.. Ok?  Just based on this response alone, I have a feeling you are here just to troll.



DDGphotos said:


> I love it ALL you give me all the JERKS, Rude, angry, and the bitter Wanna-bee's! ! ! ! I might be a newbe to THIS SITE, but when you see my locations I get sent to shoot OR BETTER WHO I SHOOT - I will be happy to share tips, trade secrets, and experience! ! ! !
> 
> 
> MU HAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Village Idiot (Aug 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> This forum is a huge database of information. Just like a library. In a library, there is a librarian, and a card catalogue. If you continually walk by the card catalogue, and go straight to the librarian, I am sure the librarian will eventually point you to the card catalogue. The librarian is NOT there to walk each patron directly to the information they seek. In school, everyone should have been taught how to do research. In higher education, there are required courses for credit that are "Independant Study".
> 
> What I see here, and on other forums is just sheer LAZINESS. People here want exact answers to specific questions and are not willing to do some leg work, and get a well rounded, deeper understanding of the subject. As a result their knowledge is very shallow and pretty useless.
> 
> The photo forum will only get people so far. They will platuea quickly at an average level. People come on here everyday and say they have Passion for photography. But they don't, really. It just sounds cool. If they were truly that passionate, they would be spending their time elsewhere, gather as much information as the can, from better sources.



And the exact answers they want are to questions broader than Eva Mendes's ass.

"What camera should I buy?"

"What flash should I buy?"

How do I expose a photo correctly"

"What settings do I use to shoot sport/cars/macro/your mom?"

And seriously? "Does anyone know of a cheap flash?" If you're going to ask that question and you don't expect 20 people replying with the answer, "yes", then you need to re-evaluate your skill at the internets.

People come here without doing an iota of research. If I've already typed out 5 responses to, "How do I use manual mode?" this week, do you honestly think it's wrong that I tell you to use the search to find those previous answers?.

That's why I generally stay out of those threads completely.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 3, 2011)

DDGphotos said:


> I love it ALL you give me all the JERKS, Rude, angry, and the bitter Wanna-bee's! ! ! ! I might be a newbe to THIS SITE, but when you see my locations I get sent to shoot OR BETTER WHO I SHOOT - I will be happy to share tips, trade secrets, and experience! ! ! !
> 
> 
> MU HAHAHAHAHA



Unless you're Chase Jarvis, then who cares? And judging by your grammar, you're not.


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## RauschPhotography (Aug 3, 2011)

KmH said:


> This is typical;
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html



Sadly, it is typical.. and we should expect this. Some new users are unaware of the search function--sometimes bringing it up isn't meant to troll or insult the OP, but to point them in the right direction without regurgitating mountains of information over and over. Personally, I think it shows a lack of initiative for people not to search it--regardless of whether it's on the forum search or Google searching it. If you can't find the answer, if you're confused.. by all means, ask away. In the case of the new lighting thread, the OP is extremely vague and wishes to be spoonfed. Can't always help the helpless, I suppose. 

In the end, I suppose TPF revolves around the "you get what you put in" mentality. Effort to research your questions, taking C&C with grace, and having thick skin is all very valuable.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> And the exact answers they want are to questions broader than Eva Mendes's ass.


Exactly! Color space and gamut are a great example. But to be fair, I guess, most have no clue what it is when they first come across their "problem".  But on the flip side, it IS in the camera manual, and if it didn't raise an eyebrow then and make you go search "what is color space", again to me that is being lazy. 

Maybe I was fortunate to be brought up to seek answers to questions. As a child, when I asked questions, the response typically was to "look it up". That's why we had encyclopedias and a dictionary. I would then be asked what I learned. I am eternally grateful for that. And grateful, now, for the Internet. A library of information at my finger tips.


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## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

> In a library, there is a librarian



  But this isn't a library this is a forum and you (speaking to everyone)  are not the librarian - ego the questions are asked to the community and it is the community which has the choice to answer. If you don't like to or want to answer the question then simple - don't answer it. The only thing it fills up is one single section on the site (beginners) and maybe part of new posts and that is all. 

If you don't like repeat questions or answering them - then just don't. I don't see why the forum should change to no longer support newer members to its community because one group of (previously) new members has advanced enough to be "beyond" such base questions. I'm sure most if not all of us have asked the basic questions at some point in our past - maybe not on this forum but somewhere - so I don't see why we should change that one bit. 


Again I'm still confused why people asking basic questions angers and infuriates so many of you - especially since the number the "resist" the answers they get is relevantly very small (its just that when it does happen its like rotting fruit to wasps and everyone crowds in for a bite)


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

I vote for someone to start making a FAQ page that is stickied to the top of beginners forum.  It must have a link to how top post photos.  Keep adding this FAQ.  If you are a noob, you MUST read the FAQ first!  .  Then we can just reply to common question and paste that thread link.


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 3, 2011)

_Q: Can you shoot a wedding with one week of experience and a kit lens?
A: NO

_[a week after sticky is posted]
"So I'm having my first wedding shoot, I don't know much but photography is my PASSION!"

:er:


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

Quentin_Moyer said:


> _Q: Can you shoot a wedding with one week of experience and a kit lens?
> A: NO
> 
> _[a week after sticky is posted]
> ...



Yes stickies are always ignored - but they do provide a comprehensive single answer that can be quickly linked to if people don't want to write out an individual reply. Of course stickies need to be monitored to ensure that they remain current with changes in the market and method.


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## Tomasko (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I vote for someone to start making a FAQ page that is stickied to the top of beginners forum.  It must have a link to how top post photos.  Keep adding this FAQ.  If you are a noob, you MUST read the FAQ first!  .  Then we can just reply to common question and paste that thread link.


Not really sure that would help... Look at the tutorial on how to upload your photos. Not really a problem to find it, right? Now look at posts of new users.
"somehow I can't upload my pictures, can somebody help"? 
Some people just WON'T be initiative enough to look for the answers, even when they have it slapped in front of their face...

This is the problem of every forum I know..


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I vote for someone to start making a FAQ page that is stickied to the top of beginners forum. It must have a link to how top post photos. Keep adding this FAQ. If you are a noob, you MUST read the FAQ first! . Then we can just reply to common question and paste that thread link.


 I think the community should create their own FAQ page off site, that can be linked to with the most common questions. Like "How do I start my biznis", and how to post images. Heck, it could even link to great threads here on various subjects. 

We know damn well, the forum won't keep up with the Stickies. They never have, and never will. Case in point "how to post images" is outdated, confusing, and incomplete. That has been pointed out REPEATEDLY!!!


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## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> We know damn well, the forum won't keep up with the Stickies. They never have, and never will. Case in point "how to post images" is outdated, confusing, and incomplete. That has been pointed out REPEATEDLY!!!



This is true, however each time the issue is raised those that raise it are often asked that if they can see problems with the current stickies that they provide the answer. I think its a difference of the opinion where the site users feel the mod team should provide the articles whilst the mod team feels that its the communities responsibility -- remember mods are not here to provide tutorials and such, but to police and help to maintain the forums running. 

If there are those who want to produce such threads then - provided they are well made and written - they can certainly be put up for being considered a sticky (heck myself I keep meaning to write a sticky for the macro section)


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

Overread said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > We know damn well, the forum won't keep up with the Stickies. They never have, and never will. Case in point "how to post images" is outdated, confusing, and incomplete. That has been pointed out REPEATEDLY!!!
> ...



Sure put it off onto the users.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-functions-pictoral-guide-using-tpf.html

That thread is LOCKED. If it wasn't I am sure someone would have posted an update. Dontchu think?

It's also the ONLY sticky that is locked. Hmmm...


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## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm not putting it off on the users, just pointing out where the difference of opinion lay. 
And yes the thread is locked, however I'm certain that you can write out the adjustments needed and pm one of the mod team to edit it in (heck scroll down and you can see where Big Mike edited in a section regarding changes to flickr - and that was in my pre-mod days).


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## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

"We all are teachers, we all are students"

No matter how accomplished we are in a specific field, we are beginners in others.  We are masters in our area of specialty, and duffers elsewhere.  So a sense of humility is appropriate, even in situations where we think we know a lot (because we may actually know very little).

@ Overread:  Asking the right question is part of the learning process.  Yes, it takes time and effort to get the question right, but that effort shows that the questioner is genuine and is prepared to commit.  My own reaction to people who ask overly broad questions with no evidence of having worked a bit at thinking about it, is to skip those threads.  OK, so I have not "wasted" my time there, but does that really help the community grow?  If we as a community are to tap into the rather large amount of knowledge and wisdom that exists here, we need to spend a bit of time figuring things out on our own, and then coming to the forum when we are stuck.  Even better, is someone who shows what they are working on and how they are overcoming the issues they are coming across.

@BJ:  I will say that the forum is not a library, but more like one of those old-world bazaars - noise, and bustle, lots of crap, some treasures, everyone trying to get your attention, and a few are trying to pick your pockets.  You also get the drunks, the idiots, the loudmouths, the idle, and even the hard-working operators and stall owners.  So, you try to stay out of the way of the loose cannons and be on the outlook for the stuff that interests you.

@ Orionbytes:  I agree with your post, and I think you've got a good handle on the situation.

@Kundalini:  I feel your frustration, but I don't know what I can offer as advice.  Perhaps, part of the solution could be to patiently just reference the appropriate thread where the question was discussed and answered, but then again, it depends on whether the person asking the question was asking the question out of ignorance (ok, we all were there at one point or another) or laziness (less excusable), or just for the sake of getting a rise out of people (classic troll behaviour).

I've doing photography for over 40 years, mostly as a snapshooting amateur.  I have enough skill and talent to occasionally produce pretty good images.  My wife suggested that I join a community photo class a number of years back, and I had the arrogance and lack of awareness to actually think that I knew photography.  That class, taught by a working professional, helped me see just how little I actually knew, and revealed the chasms of ignorance that I had (off-camera flash, manual flash, portraiture, use of light modifiers, all manner of composition ideas, post-processing...  the list goes on).  You don't know what you don't know.  Following that humbling experience, I joined a local photo club (about 150 members) and then I really began to see how little I actually knew.  Fortunately, many of the old-timers have seen this lots of time before, and were willing to generously share their time and knowledge, and to mentor me, both formally and informally.  I've learned mentoring other people is a very satisfying activity, and in the process, allows one to test just how well we think we know something.  And that's partly why I am here - to pass on what I've learned, and to learn more from those who are much better at it than I am.

"We all are teachers, we all are students"


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## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

*Newbies have to register.
Why can't the system send them an email with links to basic questions and an admonishment to read before they post?
* 
It's not enough for the mods to sit back, let everything happen and then chide the community for letting it happen that way. 

The mods know that the sticky is wrong, why can't the Mod for the Beginners' Forum just take the initiative and change it?

My guess is that it would take less time to fix the damn sticky than it took to write out the corrections.


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## KmH (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> *Newbies have to register.
> Why can't the system send them an email with links to basic questions and an admonishment to read before they post?
> *


It would be about useles to do so, because the same people that don't click on the "How to post a photo" sticky, won't click on those links either.


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## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> The mods know that the sticky is wrong, why can't the Mod for the Beginners' Forum just take the initiative and change it?
> 
> My guess is that it would take less time to fix the damn sticky than it took to write out the corrections.



What exactly is wrong with the sticky = I'm assuming its something to do with the subscriber section of the photo uploading (an area I've not used).


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> My guess is that it would take less time to fix the damn sticky than it took to write out the corrections.



Because it's more fun to argue about it?


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## Kerbouchard (Aug 3, 2011)

KmH said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > *Newbies have to register.
> ...


It might be useless initially, but it would help give credence to some of the posters who would like to link to the answer instead of having to retype it over and over again.

A simple, "Hey, thanks for posting.  That questions gets asked a lot around here so the forum admin included the link in your welcome e-mail.  Here is the link again. Let us know if you have any other questions."

Sure would make things a lot less contentious around here.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

KmH said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > *Newbies have to register.
> ...



Yes, but then we can refer to the introductory email as our source for all basic links.  
We don't have to fish out the link and post it.

A copy of the registration email could be posted as a sticky and then I could have a standard text paste that says something like:

"This information was in the email you received when registering.  If you don't have that, here a link to a copy of that email. If you don't understand the information or if you have further questions, just query again and I'd be happy to help."


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## Derrel (Aug 3, 2011)

Overread said:
			
		

> Again I'm still confused why people asking basic questions angers and infuriates so many of you->SNIP



I honestly think you are far,far,far too young to understand the answer; the answer to your question has already been provided above by Bitter Jeweler, and by Orion'sByte. Simply put Overread, your world view is that of somebody who was born DURING the internet age, and the world view of most of the "older" members is that of men and women who came of age well before the internet even existed. You see, we older folks grew up and came of age in an era when WORK and STUDY and EFFORT was required to gain information;you have come of age in the era where information is expected to be FREE. A goodly number of the younger people on this forum become upset or angry when they are not walked through their very basic questions as if they were a king or a queen. When people post a "RTFM-type" question, like, "How do I format my camera's memory card?", it shows they have not even read the camera's Quick-Start guide, but are instead, running here for hand-holding answer provision.

The fact that you say you are, "confused why people asking basic questions angers and infuriates so many of you," to use your own words, might possibly be because of your lack of understanding of the situation from the point of view of a 40- to 60- year-old person. You are missing the point, by a wide margin; it's not the ASKING of the question per se, but the RESPONSES where indignant huffiness, ad hominem attacks, and insults are hurtled back by a newbie who expected others to do his or her own WORK, and was unwilling to lift a Goddamned finger to better his or her understanding, and whose facile or over-broad question was met with an admonition to better-define the question, or to search the forum even a tiny bit, or to actually RTFM. Hey, I'm approaching 10,000 posts here; I HAVE ANSWERED THOUSANDS of questions, many of them the same ones,over and over. I have little problem with simple, honest questions, but when I see people come on here and then attack responders, and piss and moan about how "rude" people are when they give honest C&C, that's what's irritating. Not the questions, but the juvenile attitudes and responses that so,so many people given when they do not get the INSTANT help they think they are entitled to,in the form they wish, and at the level of breadth and depth the feel they are "entitled to".

Again...this is an example of how an entire generation of people, with access to a WORLD of information at their keyboard, seem to be totally fricking clueless about how to use Google or Ask Jeves or Bing or whatever, to provide them with the information they want. You own statement that Google requires you to know certain words before it spits out its search results is a good example of the excuse-making so typical of people in their 20's. Well boo-hoo-hoo, cry me a river; try walking 7/8 of a mile down to the local library in a rainy climate to get a photography magazine. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for anybody who cries that Google makes him know words, and then spews forth summaries of eight hundred applicable articles located on-line, and instantly-printable. Instantly-printable information. Not a big deal to right?

Here is a little fact about my photo background: when I was in fifth and sixth grades, I hand-transcribed The Amateur Photographer's Handbook, in longhand, on notebook paper, using a bladder-fill fountain pen, and Schaefer's Skrip ink. I still have the notebook in my safe. It's not a skimpy little volume either.Amazon.com: The Amateur Photographer's Handbook (9780690057829): Aaron Sussman: Books


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## Tomasko (Aug 3, 2011)

Derrel, you REALLY want to blame the whole generation for this? 
I don't quite understand, why does someone has to be at a certain age or to be born in a certain era, to understand what are you saying. If you look up my post in this thread, you'll see I've written basically the same. How old does that make me?

You say, that when you were younger, you had to get everything by yourself. What makes you think today is any different?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

Tomasko said:


> Derrel, you REALLY want to blame the whole generation for this?



There are always exceptions.
You are one.

It's directed at the people who repeatedly argue for, and defend, spoon fed, shallow, knowledge.
It's directed at the people who want the quick fix, rather than the deeper understanding.


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## elifant (Aug 3, 2011)

I haven't read this whole post, mainly for the same reason that I haven't done a basic search for questions that I've had since I've been here.....plain and simple, I'm lazy, and I jump on and off due to work, and it's easier for me to ask a question and then check back in for a response rather than weeding through posts to find the information. So I'll apologize for being lazy.

No one has been outright rude to me in the 2 weeks I've been here, or if they have I haven't taken it that way. I've posted a few pics for C&C because I really don't know if they are good. Family and friends tell me they like them, but what are they going to say "you suck"? So I appreciate the tips I've gotten, and I'm definitely learning things here. So thanks to anyone who has answered one of my stupid questions or C&C'd a crappy photo. It's helping me. I guess I am in the Leech phase of the process


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## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

Always the same people stiring ****. If you feel that a questions has been asked 10001101 times and you dont feel like saying your bull**** over again, move along, dont post ****. you ****in people need to get a life. GET A LIFE, if nobody respond to them, they will search for answers.

Its funny that every thread on this forum that turns into a mess you always seems to see the same people arguing about the same bull****. this place is going to the ****ter because some assholes think they run this place. In fact, they do.


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## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

I blame Canada.


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## Tomasko (Aug 3, 2011)

I understand that Bitter, however, to me Derrel's post sounded more like: we older generation had it harder, so you youngsters can't understand... That is what bothered me about it.
Maybe I just misunderstood his post, can't tell. English ain't exactly my primary language, so I struggle time to time.

Schwettylens http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/members/63137.html


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## hopdaddy (Aug 3, 2011)

Wow Derrel, Sixty- something?..... Maybe It Is the blind leading the blind.....( It's a joke....Take a breath )


It comes down to RESPECT !   The (Pros) don't respect the Uninformed,noobs......And in turn, the noobs don't give "DO" respect in return
  What to do about it......Don't respond, you choose to get pissed -off, Pick out the ones you can help and ignore the rest....WTF?


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## mc1979 (Aug 3, 2011)

ghache said:


> Always the same people stiring ****. If you feel that a questions has been asked 10001101 times and you dont feel like saying your bull**** over again, move along, dont post ****. you ****in people need to get a life. GET A LIFE, if nobody respond to them, they will search for answers.
> 
> Its funny that every thread on this forum that turns into a mess you always seems to see the same people arguing about the same bull****. this place is going to the ****ter because some assholes think they run this place. In fact, they do.



Tell us how you really feel


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## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

hopdaddy said:


> Wow Derrel, Sixty- something?..... Maybe It Is the blind leading the blind.....( It's a joke....Take a breath )
> 
> 
> It comes down to RESPECT ! The (Pros) don't respect the Uninformed,noobs......And in turn, the noobs don't give "DO" respect in return
> What to do about it......Don't respond, you choose to get pissed -off, Pick out the ones you can help and ignore the rest....WTF?




yet they create threads about it and cry all day.


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## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

mc1979 said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Always the same people stiring ****. If you feel that a questions has been asked 10001101 times and you dont feel like saying your bull**** over again, move along, dont post ****. you ****in people need to get a life. GET A LIFE, if nobody respond to them, they will search for answers.
> ...



haha, I feel great!


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## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

Tomasko, it's much easier today to Google/Yahoo/ASkJeeves etc.  But by doing so, we begin to forget the sources of our information, just as urban dwellers forget that the nice pork chop they buy at the supermarket all tidily packaged and hermetically sealed, came from a live animal, was raised on a farm (maybe), was killed in a slaughterhouse, and was prepared by a butcher.  The other day, I was talking to one of my daughters about a school assignment where she was expected to go to the source documents to gather information for a paper.  She just didn't know where to start.  Together, we worked out the type of source documents she would need, figured out where these were located, and then physically went to a number of places (libraries, museums) to find this information.  When I was doing my chemical engineering degree, one of the first term class assignments was to work out from first principles the vapour pressure of a mixture of compounds.  Each student was assigned a different mixture, so we couldn't cheat.  It involved looking up the physical constants, densities, and other properties from published research papers (and the prof didn't say which ones), then developing the mathematical equations that would incorporate those properties to derive the vapour pressure.  To complete the assignment, we had to then make the mixture in the lab and test the vapour pressure to verify whether our calculations were properly done.  I think I remember that in a class of about 50 people, only three managed to get the assignment right.  It ain't easy.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 3, 2011)

ghache said:


> Always the same people stiring ****. If you feel that a questions has been asked 10001101 times and you dont feel like saying your bull**** over again, move along, dont post ****. you ****in people need to get a life. GET A LIFE, if nobody respond to them, they will search for answers.
> 
> Its funny that every thread on this forum that turns into a mess you always seems to see the same people arguing about the same bull****. this place is going to the ****ter because some assholes think they run this place. In fact, they do.



If it makes you so mad that I speak my mind to inform a noob that they should do a little research first, why don't you go to another forum where everyone bows down to the noobs and services them with rainbows and unicorn farts so that you don't have to read my posts?


----------



## Tomasko (Aug 3, 2011)

pgriz, I agree with one thing - today you don't need to know to do certain things manually. Many things are automatic. 
HOWEVER, someone has to program those machines/websites etc, so they work exactly as we expect them to. And someone has to know how to use them. You're saying, that you had to know manually many things when you was doing your degree. What if I tell you, that today you need to know basically the same PLUS you need to know to work with a PC software? It isn't exactly easy either, because you can't be a chemist without any IT knowledge, which is HARD for many people, who would probably be great chemists otherwise. And this applies virtually to any job.
Yes, some people cheat during exams, some people cheat during their careers... But I don't think that's because of computers or because some electronic tools that can help us with our jobs. It's about their attitude, how they approach their jobs, their lives.


----------



## tirediron (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I blame Canada.


Wanna step outside and say that again?


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

I still stand that the people who complain at basic answers is a minority group. 

I would however say that there are 2 main problems which can be addressed:

1) Telling someone to Read the ****ing Manual (RTFM) as a reply is neither polite nor terribly constructive. A frosty reply can certainly jar someone to advice even if its good advice. 

2) People might argue back against advice - the problem is that I've noticed some who give advance and then are shocked if anyone should dare question said advice - even if said advice is totally correct. Fast after such an event the thread derails into personal attacks and before we know it we've 5 pages of fighting.


I don't think this is a "generation" thing, its an attitude thing and it crosses both sides from newbies to experienced people.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > I blame Canada.
> ...



Why?  You want to do curling competition?  LOL  JK


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Always the same people stiring ****. If you feel that a questions has been asked 10001101 times and you dont feel like saying your bull**** over again, move along, dont post ****. you ****in people need to get a life. GET A LIFE, if nobody respond to them, they will search for answers.
> ...




, Im not mad at you for telling someone to do a lil research. dont put words in my mouth....I just find it ****in funny how you peoples make stupid thread about how this place should be and ***** like craying babies. WHY YOU and the other ass clowns dont go somewhere else so you dont FEEL THE NEED of answereing the same bull**** over and over? 5 more new member is going to join today and ask about the same basic stuff without seaching ****. Just get over it people and dont look. dont reply, dont bother replying, its a ****in internet forum and why YOU dont you go to another forum ? you seems to have a problem with this place. LOL


----------



## gsgary (Aug 3, 2011)

KmH said:


> This is typical;
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/252187-new-lighting-where-do-i-start.html



I can't believe i got a seperate mention by the OP and i didn't even post in the thread above


----------



## Derrel (Aug 3, 2011)

MY GENERATION: Take a copy of The Amateur Photographer's Handbook, a 568 page volume. Then hand-copy it, page by page, in longhand, over parts of two different years, filling the fountain pen with Skrip synthetic ink from a freaking 50cc glass jar every 10 pages or so. Draw the illustrations by hand. You ***will*** learn something. I can assure you that you will learn.

TODAY's YOUTH: Log on to Amazon, and download it to your freaking Kindle in 3 minutes, then skim through a couple of chapters.


----------



## MissCream (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Schwettylens said:
> ...



Hey now!!

Schwetty I always wondered how you fit 3 children in your tiny import tuner, enlighten me please!


----------



## tirediron (Aug 3, 2011)

Overread said:


> 1) Telling someone to Read the ****ing Manual (RTFM) as a reply is neither polite nor terribly constructive. A frosty reply can certainly jar someone to advice even if its good advice.


Gotta disagree with you there, your Moderatorship, sir:  There are times when this is a valid and appropriate response.  Questions such as, "How do I change the shutter-speed on my camera" or "What does "----" mean on my camera's LCD?"  




Overread said:


> 2) People might argue back against advice ... I don't think this is a "generation" thing, its an attitude thing and it crosses both sides from newbies to experienced people.


There are lazy people in every generation, but part of the problem stems from the fact that, as far as I can tell, many of the more knowledgable and helpful posters on this board are old enough that their learning was done with books, manual typewriters and other such barbaric equipment.  Generally, their first instinct is to try and find the information for themselves; think back to that eigth-grade science project.  What did you do when told to write a report on volcanoes?  You went to the bookshelf and grabbed the encyclopedia 'Va - Wi' and started reading.  The "Internet Generation" has been taught to learn by going to the Internet and asking questions.  The danger here is that you can't always rely on the source of the infromation (Hey we all know that Wikipedia is 100% accurate, don't we?).


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

Derrel said:


> MY GENERATION: Take a copy of The Amateur Photographer's Handbook, a 568 page volume. Then hand-copy it, page by page, in longhand, over parts of two different years, filling the fountain pen with Skrip synthetic ink from a freaking 50cc glass jar every 10 pages or so. Draw the illustrations by hand. You ***will*** learn something. I can assure you that you will learn.
> 
> TODAY's YOUTH: Log on to Amazon, and download it to your freaking Kindle in 3 minutes, then skim through a couple of chapters.



haha yeah so what? im so sorry for your Derrel the printer was not invented when you were a kid. 

Having access to technologie doesnt make EVERYONE lazy. wow.


----------



## tirediron (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Schwettylens said:
> ...


Lissen... my Prime Minister can out-drink your President any day of the week!!!!!


----------



## subscuck (Aug 3, 2011)

I kind of avoided posting in this thread for any of a number of reasons, but mostly because I believe there is no solution. I've been a member of internet fora for a lot of years now, and I belong to a wide array of fora; photography, pastry, astronomy, Christmas decorating (yeah, so what?), even gardening. I see this everywhere. There will always be those that want people who have the knowledge to condense a book's worth of material into one or two easy to digest sentences. That just won't happen. I share the frustration of those who are are tired of seeing post after post of questions that have been answered dozens of times already. It seems sometimes that every new member thinks they have a new, never before asked question.

My own personal solution is to pick and choose who I respond to. Sometimes there's something about a newbies post that indicates they are willing to do a fair amount of work to get what they're after. I respond to them. I always let them know that they will have a far more positive experience here, and get the best help from the best people, if they can say "I've read such and such, and there's a couple of points I don't get. Can you explain?". In addition, people don't seem to understand that by doing your own research, not only does it answer your question, but it invariably answers the questions you didn't know you will have. There's great value in that, but unfortunately, not everyone is looking for value.

I'd also like to say that I feel this thread is cathartic. I've seen mass exits of the best a forum has to offer too many times. These "brain drains" always hurt the inexperienced. Instead of getting the best answers from the best people, they end up getting answers from people only a little further along the curve than themselves. So in this spirit, I'm glad Overread has chosen to engage in this debate, rather than simply lock the thread. Thank you. Sometimes people need to vent, and if that keeps the best of the best here, it's a worthwhile endeavor. 

As far as some of the suggestions given, no offense, but I see them as unworkable. Requiring new members to read through a set of threads/stickies is like the end user agreements that you're required to "read". Most people simply scroll to the bottom and click "accept". I see the same result with this suggestion. There is no way that I know of to ensure the material has actually been read.

Maybe an automatically generated PM on your first log in would get more people's attention, but I really don't know about that either. Some people are going to want instant answers, others will be willing to do their own homework. I don't see that changing. What I do see happen on all fora, though, is those who do their own work usually end up being valuable members down the road. Those who don't usually disappear quickly.

It's also entirely possible a lot of newbs are reading this and will take their cue from it. One can hope, anyway.


----------



## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

_In my generation we had to walk 5 miles to school in knee deep snow, uphill both ways, with the burning hot sun overhead and no shade or water in a raging sandstorm where the grit penetrated every crevice of my body and where wolves tracked us for days and hostile Indians menaced us and war was declared and the enemy bombed our convoy where people were dropping like flies from cholera and vultures circled our tracks and we had to use liquid emulsion and mercury developer that caused us to go crazy and run down a rabbit hole where the Red Queen threatened to chop our heads off.
_
I thought the italics were a good touch.


----------



## Gaerek (Aug 3, 2011)

Tomasko said:
			
		

> Derrel, you REALLY want to blame the whole generation for this?
> I don't quite understand, why does someone has to be at a certain age or to be born in a certain era, to understand what are you saying. If you look up my post in this thread, you'll see I've written basically the same. How old does that make me?
> 
> You say, that when you were younger, you had to get everything by yourself. What makes you think today is any different?



I'm 30. I'm part of the age of entitlement. My parents raised me and my brother to realize that the world owes me nothing and if I want something, I have to work for it. For every generalization, there are always exceptions. It seems you and I are two of them.


----------



## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

Ok, Traveller, you had it harder than I did.  I just had to dodge the kid at the end of the block who always wanted to beat me up.  I usually lost him running across the train tracks.


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Ok, Traveller, you had it harder than I did. I just had to dodge the kid at the end of the block who always wanted to beat me up. I usually lost him running across the train tracks.



You should have stayed home transcripting books by hand  its far less dangerous.


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Telling someone to Read the ****ing Manual (RTFM) as a reply is neither polite nor terribly constructive. A frosty reply can certainly jar someone to advice even if its good advice.
> ...



Ahh but you missed the point - telling someone where the information they seek is located is not the problem - is the attitude of the reply.

"The answer to what the shutter speed is in your manual that came with the camera - if you've lost this or got the camera second hand without it, then its also on your manufactures website for download"

is far more constructive than 

"RTFM" (in acronyms or full text). 


Both are saying the same thing, but the latter reply comes off as elitist and snobbish - especially to a new person to the site who has not had the time to grow accustomed to the brisk styles of some. And this is where a lot of the problem is - short sharp replies (which might not seem short or sharp but are missread through ambiguity of the net) are seen as offensive and then we fast end up in another fight.






As for this thread its clear that some people feel that we do need a range of sticky threads (or more properly one sticky with links to a series of treads) to deal with a number of typical questions that appear from time to time. That a link to this information thread might be included in a welcoming pm to members of the site is also an option which might be possible to put on the cards (I don't deal with site coding so can't say for certain). 
As such what is needed is the generation of the resource of information so that regular members can at least have a supply of "read this it might help" links they can use from the sticky.

And someone still has to tell me what is wrong with the posting pictures on the site sticky.


----------



## Village Idiot (Aug 3, 2011)

ghache said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > ghache said:
> ...



Why don't you go to a forum where people sitting around hugging the noobs and doing everything they request. You could make them coffee or tea and give them backrubs while explaining what a shutter is 20 times a day. If it bothers you that I express my opinion, you should go to another forum where people aren't allowed to have opinions.



Derrel said:


> MY GENERATION: Dag nabbit, we didn't have them computer machines that made life so easy and we had to write with twigs and ink made from berries!
> 
> TODAY's YOUTH: Log on to Amazon, and download it to your freaking Kindle in 3 minutes, then skim through a couple of chapters.


----------



## mishele (Aug 3, 2011)

Can we sticky this thread too?? That way I won't have to see another thread like this....lol


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Village Idiot said:
> ...




Ohh good lord.
cry more








okthxbye


----------



## Kerbouchard (Aug 3, 2011)

Derrel said:


> MY GENERATION: Take a copy of The Amateur Photographer's Handbook, a 568 page volume. Then hand-copy it, page by page, in longhand, over parts of two different years, filling the fountain pen with Skrip synthetic ink from a freaking 50cc glass jar every 10 pages or so. Draw the illustrations by hand. You ***will*** learn something. I can assure you that you will learn.
> 
> TODAY's YOUTH: Log on to Amazon, and download it to your freaking Kindle in 3 minutes, then skim through a couple of chapters.


Your generation was into copyright infringement.  Today's generation is into copyright infringement.  Your way just took more time.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

but download it trough amazon is legit yo!  Photocopying it, it's not!


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > MY GENERATION: Take a copy of The Amateur Photographer's Handbook, a 568 page volume. Then hand-copy it, page by page, in longhand, over parts of two different years, filling the fountain pen with Skrip synthetic ink from a freaking 50cc glass jar every 10 pages or so. Draw the illustrations by hand. You ***will*** learn something. I can assure you that you will learn.
> ...



hahahaha Thief should be jailed!


----------



## ghache (Aug 3, 2011)

and he still has it in a SAFE?!?!?!?!??


----------



## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

Overread said:


> (I don't deal with site coding so can't say for certain).




Well, who can say - and how do we ask?




Overread said:


> And *someone still has to tell me* what is wrong with the posting pictures on the site sticky.



Have you looked at it?

1) It has an example from a site no one uses.
Why isn't the example from Flickr, Photobucket or Imageshack that will cover 99% of all the uploads here?

2) The explanation for how upload to the site works covers a previous iteration of the software and the pictures don't match this version.

AND, how come the 'upload images from url' won't work unless a box, which is checked by default, is unchecked?
This has been mentioned several times in the last few months and no one seemingly has the connections to correct that simple defect.


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > (I don't deal with site coding so can't say for certain).
> ...



The site suggestions section or pming a site admin would be the best courses of action. However remember the whole idea is based upon key article threads, which would have to be written up before such a policy could be put into action. I will however flag the idea in the mod forum for consideration.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

Overead, just start something.  People can reply if they want to add something.  You can keep editing the original post.


----------



## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

Let&#8217;s be proactive and make up a list of stickies (or maybe just a good FAQ section).

How to post pics
How to ask for a critique
How to give a critique
How to operate your camera (complete with list of download sites for manuals)
How to use the M, Av an Tv modes
How to compare relative benefits of crop vs. full-frame sensors
How to meter exposure (and list of books/tutorial web sites that cover this)
How to use on-camera flash
How to use manual flash (usually off-camera)
How to use multiple flashes
Basic guidelines of composition
Basic guidelines for posing people
Basic post-processing
Comparision between P&S cameras and DSLR&#8217;s
How to test lenses
How to find sites that do lens and camera reviews.
How to achieve focus (manual and AF)
Tools for reducing/eliminating camera shake and/or subject blur
How to use the internet to get answers to questions you don&#8217;t know how to ask
What is a troll and how to avoid same.
How to find or avoid Ken Rockwell.

Add others as you see fit.


----------



## Raian-san (Aug 3, 2011)

But quick question, I need suggestions for my first DSLR


----------



## Gaerek (Aug 3, 2011)

Raian-san said:
			
		

> But quick question, I need suggestions for my first DSLR



Canon, definitely.


----------



## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Why Canon is superior to everything else.
Why Nikon is superior to everything else.
Why Pentax as shot by Miss Cream is truly superior to everything else.
Why equipment doesn't matter.


----------



## Geaux (Aug 3, 2011)

Best computer to edit photos?


----------



## MissCream (Aug 3, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot.
> 
> Why Canon is superior to everything else.
> Why Nikon is superior to everything else.
> ...



Fantastic idea.


----------



## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

Griz's list is good but much too much, imo, to be included in an email for a newbie

I think the email can cover these few topics as links.

How to post pics
How to ask for a critique and How to give a critique
How to use the site search functions to find previous discussions on common topics.
How to use the internet to get answers to questions you don&#8217;t know how to ask

and a link to our tutorials thread also.

If we can get some assurance that will will actually happen from the tech people behiond the curtain, I will be happy to write the letter and to create/edit one of the linked topics.

Lew


----------



## MissCream (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Griz's list is good but much too much, imo, to be included in an email for a newbie
> 
> I think the email can cover these few topics as links.
> 
> ...



And of course 
*Why Pentax as shot by Miss Cream is truly superior to everything else.*


----------



## Raian-san (Aug 3, 2011)

How about not letting them post a new thread without at least posting 10 in other threads, or until they use the Search option to find what they need?


----------



## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

I agree with Traveller that that list is 'way too much info for an e-mail, but it could work as a FAQ/sticky.  Actually, that kind of stuff would be really neat as a "wiki" and would be an asset to the site.  
The potential conflict of interest will be in referencing other sites...  Unless the site owners got some kind of reciprocal linking rights...


----------



## mrstravis (Aug 3, 2011)

e.rose said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> Kun, it's FRUSTRATING as HELL.  I get it.  It frustrates me even more to know how much *I've* grown from all of your (you rude, bitchy, trolling, mean, hobby-proists ) C&C and tips, and I don't recall ever getting defensive about it once.  If I ever came *off* that way I think it was established at some point in the thread that it was because I was confused, not resisting.  And you know... I'm confused a lot.  :lmao:
> 
> ...



Agreed!!!!


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Griz's list is good but much too much, imo, to be included in an email for a newbie
> 
> I think the email can cover these few topics as links.
> 
> ...



It might take more than few hours for all the mods to get a look in - esp the admin ones who would be the ones to decide on the potential of a welcome pm concept. Regardless the production of a series of informative articles for newer photographers and the linking of them in a reference sticky would not be out of the question. The biggest problem is just getting the individual articles written up for a launch of the idea - and for that we will need members willing to write them.


----------



## The_Traveler (Aug 3, 2011)

There are already basic articles referenced in the tutorial thread and we could use those as a start.

    For example, you wrote a post on how to get and give c/c that good serve as a good start (maybe thinned down a bit) and I know others reading this thread have seen other good articles. 
We could use that good tutorial thread but let it be a work in progress, edited as we can.




*We can't let perfection be the enemy of good.
*


----------



## jake337 (Aug 3, 2011)

A sticky on how to use the bathroom for sure...


----------



## pgriz (Aug 3, 2011)

MissCream said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah, I forgot.
> ...



You know, though, that Overread is going to be looking to you for a written article on this, right?


----------



## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

something like this

Please READ Before Posting! - FM Forums


----------



## sleist (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> something like this
> 
> Please READ Before Posting! - FM Forums



An excellent read.


----------



## ClickAddict (Aug 3, 2011)

Raian-san said:


> How about not letting them post a new thread without at least posting 10 in other threads, or until they use the Search option to find what they need?



Can't remember which forums I've seen this implemented before but although it's a great idea, it just makes new users post quick one-two word replies (with very little thought or use to the OP) in other threads just so they can post a new thread.


----------



## manaheim (Aug 3, 2011)

Wait... over is a site moderator?  *boggle*

lol


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

manaheim said:


> Wait... over is a site moderator?  *boggle*
> 
> lol



I know its scary !


----------



## e.rose (Aug 3, 2011)

Overread said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Wait... over is a site moderator?  *boggle*
> ...



I just had the *same* realization.  I saw someone said, "I'm glad Over didn't lock this thread," and I was like HA!  How could he anyway?  And then I saw and I was like whuuuuaaaaaaaaaat?  

When did that happen?


----------



## Overread (Aug 3, 2011)

A few days ago - I woke up and bam purple name, lots of shiny new buttons and some pestery spam to kill


----------



## johnh2005 (Aug 3, 2011)

I think Bitter has me on ignore.  Makes me a sad Panda =(


----------



## MissCream (Aug 3, 2011)

johnh2005 said:


> I think Bitter has me on ignore.  Makes me a sad Panda =(



Don't get all emo on us...


----------



## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 3, 2011)

johnh2005 said:


> I think Bitter has me on ignore. Makes me a sad Panda =(



Is it worse than being on "vonstarr's" 'don't ignore' list?!


----------



## johnh2005 (Aug 3, 2011)

MissCream said:


> johnh2005 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Bitter has me on ignore.  Makes me a sad Panda =(
> ...



Well, I actually like Bitter, most of the time.  He can provide a TON of useful information.  I just do not know what I did to get there...  I am going to go cry into my pillow now.


----------



## Robin Usagani (Aug 3, 2011)

Bitter doesnt need an ignore button to ignore you.  He just ignores you.  He is very good with that.


----------



## Netskimmer (Aug 3, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Bitter doesnt need an ignore button to ignore you. He just ignores you. He is very good with that.



We should start a Chuck Norris type thread for Bitter... You know, things like 'Butter doesn't change his exposure settings, he just tells the sun to get brighter.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 3, 2011)

:meh:​


----------



## kric2schaam626 (Aug 3, 2011)

I like this thread.


----------



## The_Traveler (Aug 10, 2011)

*Notice that there is no response from the mods or the admins on any suggestions to make the site more efficient or better.*

*Do you guys, mods and admins, actually give a crap?

and if so, why isn't there even a response to the members who are willing to work on issues to make the site better?

*


----------



## Geaux (Aug 10, 2011)

Whoa.....lol.


----------



## mishele (Aug 10, 2011)

Tell us how you really feel!


----------



## Derrel (Aug 10, 2011)

The_Traveler:

This thread came to its natural conclusion seven days ago. Accept that, and move on with life.


----------



## Dao (Aug 10, 2011)

I join here since spring of 2008.  And this is not the first time something like this happened before and after the board was sold. The mods simply cannot do much at all.  Can't blame them because they don't own the board.


----------



## honoryourlife (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok, so I've read through all 7 pages of this thread. If there is more pages by now, I haven't read them.

What a quality read. But I do have some issues that concern me.

A forum is a community of people that was/is used to discuss things, ask questions, learn and teach. So if a newb asks a question and posts a thread that has been posted time and time again, it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't use the search function. Perhaps they couldn't find the exact answer they were looking for, or simply couldn't understand what they read. So why get on them for it? Sure, tell them to use the search function, but be helpful about it. Being straight forward about it, is a good policy.

I am of the younger generation, but I'm not lazy when it comes to my passion. I do the research and put in the hard work.


I spend a lot of time on various photography forums, researching and sifting through hundreds of photography websites, photos, etc. I ask a lot of questions to pros and to beginners a like. 

I spend a lot of time on www.thephotoforum.com, I don't post a lot. I mostly lurk and use the information I find and apply it to my studies and to my real life practice. 

I also buy books on different photography subjects and read them extensively. I also read reviews, tips & hints, and camera/lens/flash/studio lighting manuals. 

I also go by trial and error and try different things each time I go out on a shoot. 

I also only shoot EXCLUSIVELY on the MANUAL setting, so I have complete control over every aspect of my photography. 

I want to become a Master Photographer, not just some dude with a camera. 

I don't edit my photos, everything can be done with the camera that is needed to get a great photo. But editing could be a useful tool for different/more artistic types of photography. Such as HDR. 

I also try different types of photography to better myself in different areas and learn all I can about my passion. 

I want to go somewhere with it! 






So if I post a question or ask for C&C its because I'm willing to put in the hard work and research. Also to learn from those who have been where I am and have advanced greatly. I have advanced in my photography greatly by doing the research and hard work.

I ask a lot of questions and I learn a lot.

Just my piece, probably doesn't make much sense. But I want to be taken seriously and not like some newb that didn't do his homework, because thats not the case.

Just letting you all know that I'm not some arrogant, lil sh!t who doesn't put in the effort.

We're not all like that.

But anyways, have a good day. I look forward to conversing with everyone and learning from those that are willing to lend a hand!

-Ryan,

PS-Those who use facebook, check out my link at the bottom to see my work. You can see where I started and how I have progressed.


----------



## Overread (Aug 10, 2011)

There's no need to shout.

Also we did respond - the upshot was we needed people willing to write the articles/tutorials in order to proceed. If people are willing to write such articles we can then move on from there for certain.


----------



## RebeccaAPhotography (Aug 10, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Thinking about this stuff some more, it appears that to get better C&C on images posted, maybe we need to ask the OP (no, not Kundalini, but the many newbies that start posting 495 photos all at once and ask for C&C) some questions before we invest much energy in giving the C&C. Questions such as:
> 1) What was your vision when you made this image?
> 2) What did you intend the audience to see or feel?
> 3) How did you go about achieving your goal?
> ...



I am a newbie and one of the very first threads I wrote which I think was just saying Hi someone told me to do those things. I've put 10 pics up in 2 threads asking for CC. and I did exactly what you have written  I've gotten some CC that has def helped me


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## The_Traveler (Aug 10, 2011)

Overread said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Griz's list is good but much too much, imo, to be included in an email for a newbie
> ...



this is your last post.
 did you say something beyond that, laying out how we should proceed?

If you did, I missed it.


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## Overread (Aug 10, 2011)

Ahh well I was waiting for more to show some interest/pm about writing articles. 
Also I thought someone was starting a thread on that topic - though it appears not to be teh case. 

In addition (having actually looked at our stickies) we do actually have one!
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...rum-photo-gallery/123160-tutorial-thread.html

In beginners right at the top. So I'd suggest for those interested teh first port of call is to check the existing sticky and threads and see what is needed. A few of the linked items are on other sites and would be better re-written and produced for TPF - whilst some others need updating and correcting.


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## Bob in GV (Aug 10, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Derrel, 
LOVE IT!

I was trying to get through this whole  thread before commenting, because I do have strong feelings about the  internet and forums. 
I participate in other photo forums as well as  kart racing forums and do get tired of the same questions over and over  or questions that the poster should have been able to answer with a  quick search. How I've handled it in other places differs from what I  usually see here.
My normal response is to provide a link to the  information or to the Google search results with a comment about it  taking <10 seconds or <30 seconds or whatever to find the answer.  Then I suggest trying it. 
Let's face it, the internet was not  invented so people could post horrible images of themselves taken from a  high arms length vantage point in a mirror with some screwed up look on  their face to "socialize" with their "friends." It was invented as a  repository for information, and search engines were invented to give us  access to that information.
That said, I am as you noted OLD, I'm  semi-retired (involuntarily) from a 35+ year career in high-tech  industries. I guarantee that I wouldn't have lasted a year by going to  my peers asking basic questions. I had to research the question myself,  then I could discuss it with the senior people around me to either add  information or to clarify my understanding of the answer.
Finally, for the younger folks, the most important thing you'll ever learn in school  is how to find information. If you don't get that one then I feel badly  for you because there aren't many skilled labor type jobs out there in  this country anymore.

My other pet peeve on photo forums is when people say they don't need to study the basics such as exposure, dof, etc. They own cameras that have all that programmed into them so the photographer only needs to concentrate on his/her "art."

p.s. I've read The Amateur Photographer's Handbook a few times, and still use it for questions I have about basic photographic information. Also use the Ansel series for research.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 10, 2011)

Will the ADMIN include a basic instructions and directions in an email to every new registrant?

Otherwise we can rewrite to our heart's content but no one will read the stickies.

Lew


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## Overread (Aug 10, 2011)

Yes yet no admin answer - though remember even if you give people a pm there is no guarantee that they will read it. In the end a tutorials sticky is only any good if its referred to and used by existing members as a resource to reference to for newer members.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 10, 2011)

If there is a letter and its posted as a sticky then we can have a standard reply to all the silly redundant questions - refer to the PM you were sent or read that sticky in the intro forum.

One answer for many questions.
A nice way to say 'read the manual you were sent that is also posted here'


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 10, 2011)

Bob in GV said:


> Finally, for the younger folks, the most important thing you'll ever learn in school is *how to find information*. If you don't get that one then I feel badly for you because there aren't many skilled labor type jobs out there in this country anymore.



No matter how many times it is said, 
It falls on deaf ears of the spoon fed.


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## Overread (Aug 10, 2011)

Traveler - even if its not sent as a pm letter to all new members, an up to date series of known references can still be used as the quick "auto answers" for members to link newer members to for commonly asked questions.


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