# This is the beginner's forum right?



## McMommy (Apr 20, 2010)

I wanted to mention something, before I get too comfortable here, in the event that maybe I'm on the wrong kind of board.


This part of the forum is for beginners right? People who consider themselves beginners, anyway. Where others can come and give feedback in a constructive, polite, and courteous way, knowing full well they are commenting on non-pro work?

I'm just asking because I've seen a LOT of snarky, "holier than thou" comments to several people's photos and questions here. It's a huge turnoff and I'm just wondering if people realize when they are commenting on a "beginner" thread. 

If so...then I'll be moving onward. It's hurtful to see so many "pros" bashing newbies for asking newbish questions. Also it's hurtful to see people getting bashed for what are actually pretty good "beginner" photos. I haven't noticed it a whole lot on my own threads, maybe a little here and there, but I've noticed it a lot on others' threads and it's clearly intentional. 


So that's that. Forgive me if this has been asked before. Maybe it can be a gentle reminder to those who might just comment on all posts without looking which category it was posted under. Just be kind, please? :hug::


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## PerfectlyFlawed (Apr 20, 2010)

:thumbup: 

there are 2 sides to this though lol


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## adversus (Apr 20, 2010)

Usually when I see snarky comments here it's the result of two things:

1.  Someone asking a question that most people would consider easily answered by a simple Google search, or

2.  Coming to the Beginners Forum, and expecting that the answer and critiques they get will turn them into instant professionals.

I've gotten a TON of good advice and help here, even that which looks snarky.  Treat others on the forum with respect (like avoid the two things I listed above) and you'll find that there's a wealth of knowledge here.

Except for Bitter Jeweler, just ignore whatever he says


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## white (Apr 20, 2010)

I do find it a little ... disappointing to meet people who have these powerhouse cameras and have little to no understanding of photography basics. Usually the only photographic term they know is "bokeh", which just seems like a huge fad to me. So I like to poke fun at that.

For the most part, though, I think I post a fair amount of constructive criticism. Far more than I receive, actually.


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## fokker (Apr 20, 2010)

Cry me a river...

The biggest DIS service you can possibly do for anyone wanting to improve their photography is to go blindly praising their work.

I, and most others, come here because there is a degree of honesty that helps us become better photographers. If you want a pat on the back look elsewhere.


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## Darkhunter139 (Apr 20, 2010)

I dont want people critiquing my photos as "beginner pictures" id rather harsh comments then someone telling me my photo is good when it isnt.   These kind of threads pop up all the time, sure some comments are out of line but this is the internet, that is going to happen.


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## mostly sunny (Apr 20, 2010)

McMommy said:


> I wanted to mention something, before I get too comfortable here, in the event that maybe I'm on the wrong kind of board.
> 
> 
> This part of the forum is for beginners right? People who consider themselves beginners, anyway. Where others can come and give feedback in a constructive, polite, and courteous way, knowing full well they are commenting on non-pro work?
> ...


:hail: Amen Sista'


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## mostly sunny (Apr 20, 2010)

white said:


> I do find it a little ... disappointing to meet people who have these powerhouse cameras and have little to no understanding of photography basics. Usually the only photographic term they know is "bokeh", which just seems like a huge fad to me. So I like to poke fun at that.
> .




I totally agree with you. I hate when a newbie has a "powerhouse" camera and has no idea what an f stop is!!!


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## McMommy (Apr 20, 2010)

Well some of the rudeness can be found by scrolling up in this thread.


I'm not asking you to sugar coat your comments. If you want to tell somebody that the color is off, don't just flat out say "you didn't do a good job pp, it looks terrible." Say "Did you mean to make the color that way? If you make it brighter, it would greatly enhance the photo."

Also, I really don't think anyone posting their work on this part of the forums is claiming to be a pro just because they bought a camera. Yes, I've seen the "hey I want to sell my work, I've been taking pictures for 3 hours, whaddya think" posts... that's not what I'm referring to. It's the elitist attitude that comes off in many people's responses, when it could be worded differently to be helpful, instead of hurtful!


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## McMommy (Apr 20, 2010)

fokker said:


> *Cry me a river...*
> 
> The biggest DIS service you can possibly do for anyone wanting to improve their photography is to go blindly praising their work.
> 
> I, and most others, come here because there is a degree of honesty that helps us become better photographers.* If you want a pat on the back look elsewhere*.





This is EXACTLY the kind of comment I'm talking about. It's like you are talking to a neighbor you really don't like after having a few beers at their house. You know... the kind of talk that maybe you didn't mean "like that" but you also don't have the tact to censor yourself? It's just mean, and yeah it's the internet, but this is still a community. It's not a two-bit AOL chatroom full of random people... People with a common passion/interest, trying to enjoy and improve upon their craft- no matter their skill level!


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

So it's not what we say, it's how we say it? 

Or are you referring to comments that have only negative comments and not suggestions for improvement?


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## Darkhunter139 (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy said:


> fokker said:
> 
> 
> > *Cry me a river...*
> ...



Give me a break....if you let comments like that get to you I advise you to stay away from any kind of internet chat.


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## white (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy said:


> Well some of the rudeness can be found by scrolling up in this thread.
> 
> 
> I'm not asking you to sugar coat your comments. If you want to tell somebody that the color is off, don't just flat out say "you didn't do a good job pp, it looks terrible." Say "Did you mean to make the color that way? If you make it brighter, it would greatly enhance the photo."


If people don't post explanations with their photos, then any critique is fair game. Have you ever participated in a formal critique of other people's work, in real life? The best criticism is when people tell you straight-up this photograph doesn't work, and here's why.


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy said:


> This is EXACTLY the kind of comment I'm talking about.


 
I'm glad you see the irony.

Hey, some people like dolled up namby pamby responses, others like to be blunt and to the point. Maybe you're being intolerant of other peoples beliefs? :er:


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## mostly sunny (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy said:


> fokker said:
> 
> 
> > *Cry me a river...*
> ...



McMommy- I try not to read to much into an "expression" of a comment.  I do this because one time, when I was married I got a text from my husband. IT WAS ALL IN CAPS.  I don't even remember exactly what it was but I worried about it cause I thought he was yelling at me.  When I asked him if he was upset he had no idea what I was talking about.  When I said, you were yelling at me.... He was like.. huh, oh my caps somehow got locked and I was in a hurry so didn't change it.

So, from then on.. not with just a relationship but anything I read and can't really see an expression.. I don't think too much about it..

I just like the.. let me google that for you response.


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## McMommy (Apr 21, 2010)

fokker said:


> So it's not what we say, it's how we say it?
> 
> Or are you referring to comments that have only negative comments and not suggestions for improvement?




I think a negative comment can be a suggestion for improvement, depending on how it's stated. If the intent is helpful criticism, then why not let the comment be that way too? Why bother with being rude or sarcastic? (not referring to your comment being sarcastic, btw, but a lot of the comments I have read in other threads.)


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

Yep, it's pretty hard to convey to convey emotion in ambiguous statements over teh internet. 

In other words: blunt does not equate to **** <- starts with c and rhymes with blunt


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

I hate to tell you but the art world is harsh. I wonder how you would react to being told your work is trash in front of over 100 people... as happened to me. If you don't develop thick skin in a hurry, you will not last. Sorry.

I just happened on your thread to which Dominantly replied. You seem to find him harsh when he is probably one of the gentlest person (while still being honest) on this forum. And he definitely tries to help.

Thanks for letting me know to stay away from your threads though.


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## McMommy (Apr 21, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I hate to tell you but the art world is harsh. I wonder how you would react to being told your work is trash in front of over 100 people... as happened to me. If you don't develop thick skin in a hurry, you will not last. Sorry.
> 
> I just happened on your thread to which Dominantly replied. You seem to find him harsh when he is probably one of the gentlest person (while still being honest) on this forum. And he definitely tries to help.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know to stay away from your threads though.




Well I'm not mainly referring to my threads at all... it's a theme I've seen on the beginner section of this forum. I only pointed out what he said because I didn't understand how he meant it originally, but was hoping it wasn't as it came across.

I wouldn't have my art criticized in front of 100 people, because I know my stuff isn't up to the caliber of showing it to 100 people. That's why I'm here. When I'm good, and know what I should and shouldn't be doing, and have a lot of practice under my belt... I'm sure I'll have a much thicker skin then because I'll be confident in my abilities. But for now, why bother with the nastiness when it's totally not necessary?


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

It was not nastiness. It was a free C&C session that a lot of people attended. Since he thought it was trash there was really not much reason to elaborate while all the others are waiting for their turn. I asked for his opinion, I got it. That's it.

And different people have different ways of expressing themselves.


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

As per previous posts, it's not 'nastiness' it's just not mincing your words, ie getting to the point.  Most of the 'nasty' posts you are probably thinking of were intended by the author as being as helpful as possible - how you perceive the comment is up to you, but if you appreciate honest feedback then you will take it at face value and not read it as a 'mean' comment but rather a pearl of wisdom.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

fokker said:


> ...not read it as a 'mean' comment but rather a pearl of wisdom.



In my case, I didn't see the C&C as mean but I sure didn't see as a pearl of wisdom :lmao:

My reaction was more along the line of: this guy just doesn't get it.


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## mdtusz (Apr 21, 2010)

I'll be honest, this is probably the most "kind" and dishonest photography forums I've been on apart from photoforum.com

If people ask for critique, I will happily give it to them, but it more than likely will make them feel like crap, usually because the picture they post is far from "professional" or even pro-amateur. I have gotten to a point where if I open a thread and someone has already commented saying "this is really pretty ", I won't bother critiquing because the battle is already lost and I will become the 'bad guy'.

I agree that there is some unnecessary rudeness on here, but that's just people not knowing how to constructively criticize. Most people nowadays don't know how actually... Coming from a job where that is what I do on a daily basis (coach) often dealing with the most sensitive people (3 year olds up to seniors) with one of the most complicated sports around (sailing), you quickly learn a right and a wrong way to criticize and point out flaws (granted I don't always apply this on the internet...)

It is a simple concept called the poo sandwich.

1) Give them some bread: "I love the pose she has"

2) Give them a healthy dose of poo: "but the composition is much too tight on her face, you cut off her left arm, and there's something in the background there that you could have moved to remove the clutter."

3) More bread: "Try a reshoot and maybe add a bit of sharpening to her eyes and it will look much better!"

Alternatively, you can give them poo on toast if it's really bad and you can't find enough good, or, they are bold enough to accept the criticism.


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> fokker said:
> 
> 
> > ...not read it as a 'mean' comment but rather a pearl of wisdom.
> ...


 

I guess that would make it a negative comment rather than a negative but constructive one. But even a negative comment with no justification can be of use to someone seeking to better their work.

I think it is acceptable to question the judgement of any comments given and to disagree, but not to the point where the response becomes a massive self-defense and personal attacks are made against the commenter.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

fokker said:


> I think it is acceptable to question the judgement of any comments given and to disagree, but not to the point where the response becomes a massive self-defense and personal attacks are made against the commenter.



Agreed as long as one realizes there are no gods in the arts, just people with opinions.

What was really funny is that a few months later, those same images were hanging in a gallery for my first solo show and, there again, someone called them trash. The gallery owner was way more upset than I was


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

Haha, good on ya. Nobody enjoys having their work rubbished, but it says a lot about a character when you can suck it up not let it get you down.


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## jeffreyamanning (Apr 21, 2010)

Everyone has an opinion.  Take pride in your work and question why they think the way they do.  If they have a valid point, take it into consideration and mark it as a possible weak spot in your photography/PP.  You will figure out who is being an a-hole and who is just harsh by questioning them.  Most people are willing to help you as long as you are willing to take reasonable criticism (the harsh kind too).


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## K8-90 (Apr 21, 2010)

Hehe, I have an analogy!

Food. Despite the fact that we are just going to chew it up and then it all goes to the same place, presentation matters. You've got to make it look appetizing in order for someone to eat it.

LOL.

Some people on here are quite nice, though. Big_Mike for one is very knowledgeable and delivers things very coherently and politely. Maybe it's because he's Canadian...


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## Superub (Apr 21, 2010)

As a beginner here, and someone who does seek feedback i would much prefer the blunt and honest opinion of someone who is not emotionally attached to the picture and can see it objectively. I actually find it hard to get honest opinions from people - maybe my work is just not that good :-(.

I think some people get to emotionally attached to the images they present and are really only posting them for congratulations. If you invite feedback be prepared to deal with the consequences.


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## LaFoto (Apr 21, 2010)

In a way, each and everyone of us are somewhat emotionally attached to those photos that we decide to make visible to many people, I should think. Which puts some into the defensive the moment they have made their work public. Acting or speaking out of the defensive will always make the photo owner react with some personal distance towards another who calls them out on the flaws of their photos.

However, becoming defensive to a degree where the obvious flaws are not recognised as flaws, but are being defended to no end, will alienate those who offer their opinions and/or critiques/critisism, too. And off we go ... 

We have a saying in my language (German), which roughly translates into "The way you shout into the woods will be the way the echo comes back", and another that says "Its the sound that makes the music". When you give rude, cynic, aloof remarks only, the other will feel more pushed into the defensive than ever before. If your music is harmonic, the whole thread will stay harmonic.

Some have it in them to give ... what was that very apt term again, must scroll and look ... poo sandwich (thank you mctusz! )-critique, and some don't. So if a photo sports all sorts of flaws, they'll just go point those out. Full-stop. 

Those beginners who do decide to present their photos to a wider audience - move out of the defenisve. Develop some distance between yourself and the photo you present, move away, look from afar together with the viewers who are NOT attached to the photo at all, listen, think, don't defend yourselves right away, think some more and learn. Also from the non-sugarcoated (non poo-SANDWICHED) remarks.


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## benhasajeep (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with the OP and the beginners should be allowed to ask the same questions over and over agian.  Nothing says if you have seen and answered a question 500 times you have to do it again.  Nobody is twisting your arm to answer, especially in a short abrasive manner.  Let someone else take the reins thats willing to answer.  As for honnest critique there is nothing wrong with it.  But what you have to remmeber is if you use terms like "the picture is soft" or similar and thats it.  Does the newbie know what that means?  Have to remember a newbie may not know the lingo.  Obviously "picture sucks" and nothing else, that comment helps no one.  But even when you take the time to give a short sentence on why you don't like the pictures maybe your use of technical terms is not understood.   Replies have to be at the level of the forum.  Since its a beginners forum longer explanations are probably in order.  Again nobody is forcing you to read them or reply to them.  So why reply if you don't want to or will be abrasive in your reply.  Stick to the advanced forums.  Let others deal with the newbies.

I think people forget an online community is a "social interaction" not just an information source.  Yes maybe the answer is in 500 posts or online in websites, or in volumes of reference manuals.  But there is no social interaction with those sources.  Part of the act of joining the site is not to just get answers, but also the communication between people with similar interests in the subject of the particular site.

Let the beginners be beginners!


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## manaheim (Apr 21, 2010)

A couple things to keep in mind... people with more experience in a thing tend to be more to the point on their comments.  There is often less fluff in what they say.  This is for two reasons...

1. They don't have as much patience as folks who are newer to the process, because they've been doing this for however long.
2. They understand it at a level where (in theory) a simple one-line remark might be all it should take to convey the idea.

The problem with #2 is that I think that frequently that one line remark that speaks VOLUMES can really only be understood by someone VERY insightful, not at ALL defensive, and sometimes by someone who also understands things at a level beyond the recipient of the remark.   Challenging.

My experience with it is to be patient, try not to be defensive, and ask well-thought-out questions for deeper understanding.  You'll gain the respect of the critic in question because you'll be taking the time and genuinely trying, and you'll likely get WAY more information out of them than you would otherwise.

Also... and this is something I'm only starting to learn... _don't_ expect that you'll get much more than technical understanding from most forums.  And _try_ not to assume that technical excellence is artistic excellence... in fact, don't even assume that there _is_ artistic excellence.  Whether it was his intent or not, I had my eyes initially opened to some of these ideas by cloud.  Listen to him.  He's shmaht.

Anyway, good luck.


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

.... fill out in triplicate and return to the to moderators of this site.









Some words of advice......This is the Internet... people are blunt... stay at this site, leave and find another... you'll run into the same thing.  Its just the way it is.


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## vtf (Apr 21, 2010)

Somehow I'd rather hear something concerning my pictures bad or good even to say Im ugly and disgusting then receiving no responses at all as I've been on the latter too many times.  
156 views, 0 responses.


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## Dao (Apr 21, 2010)

vtf said:


> Somehow I'd rather hear something concerning my pictures bad or good even to say Im ugly and disgusting then receiving no responses at all as I've been on the latter too many times.
> 156 views, 0 responses.



If a photo did not have a "wow" factor and it is not technically wrong, it usually will not receive much comments.  It happened to my photos as well.  In the positive side, at least I know it is not bad (at least technically).  However, it also means I need to learn and practice more.


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## LaFoto (Apr 21, 2010)

vtf - the many (!) times my posts with photos go down the drain in no time at all with no replies (maybe one) just tell me that apparently my photos are downright boring. And I must live with that. I also must live with that very notion. Like Dao is saying: unless a photo has a clear "wow"-factor, or sports some clear technical or compositional flaws, few people feel inclined to say anything at all. Happens to me ALL THE TIME, and has happened for my past ... what? Two? Three years on here. Tells me quite something about my photos. Try as I might, I aren't interesting. What now? Since I'm not selling (actually I am, but not to a kind of clientele that counts for HERE) and my way of living does not depend on whether my photography earns the family bacon or not, I just live with the notion. I'm not happy with it, but...


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## Alan92RTTT (Apr 21, 2010)

Interesting thread. I run a rather large car forum. We have a similar issue with new members/owners.  

We have the old members that don't want to answer the same question for the 5 millionth time. 
The old members that spit out a short and rude response because they thought the question was stupid. 
We get the "search noob" response to common and simple questions. 
The new users that don't search.
New users that get rude an snotty thinking they know more then members that have been around for years. 

Over time I realized severl things: 
This will always happen on a forum. 
You have to assume new users don't know your terms. 
If you don't know the right terms vbulletin search sucks ass. 
Existing members have to learn that you can tell someone they are wrong without being rude and condescending. (in other words don't say "it sucks". If you think it sucks explain why or don't post)
Existing members have to learn that they should define terms they use when talking to noobs. 

Their is one huge thing we all need to remember, We are not all from the same area this forum spans countries. What I may consider a rude snarky comment might be considered as mild from someone from the UK. Our cultures are different and we need to be mindful of that when reading and posting. 


[gets off soapbox]


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## JillH (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy, I took a look at the threads you've started recently, and the feedback you received from other users.  Until the last post, responses were, by and large, warm and fuzzy, and even in your most recent post, I thought the feedback you were receiving was pretty useful stuff, and you're being a bit thin-skinned in reaction to some very pointed, negative, yet constructive suggestions.

Yeah, there are some blunt, somewhat snarky, people who post here - I've had a couple comment on the images I've posted, and I may have learned more about what I'm doing right and wrong from them than anyone else.


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## McMommy (Apr 21, 2010)

JillH said:


> McMommy, I took a look at the threads you've started recently, and the feedback you received from other users.  Until the last post, responses were, by and large, warm and fuzzy, and even in your most recent post, I thought the feedback you were receiving was pretty useful stuff, and you're being a bit thin-skinned in reaction to some very pointed, negative, yet constructive suggestions.
> 
> Yeah, there are some blunt, somewhat snarky, people who post here - I've had a couple comment on the images I've posted, and I may have learned more about what I'm doing right and wrong from them than anyone else.



Like I said, I'm not referring to my posts, but as a general theme I've noticed. I keep posting things here because I do get a lot of feedback and it does help me focus on the things I need to improve.


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## pbelarge (Apr 21, 2010)

Alan92RTTT said:


> Interesting thread. I run a rather large car forum. We have a similar issue with new members/owners.
> 
> We have the old members that don't want to answer the same question for the 5 millionth time.
> The old members that spit out a short and rude response because they thought the question was stupid.
> ...


 

Alan
This is well stated, and I can see you have plenty of experience to be able to state it.



.......maybe we should have the option to video tape our responses. :lmao:


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## mwcfarms (Apr 21, 2010)

erose86 said:


> McMommy said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, I'm not referring to my posts, but as a general theme I've noticed.
> ...


 

This is why I havent posted any photos yet lol I tend to be b$%chy unless I have my caffeine drip in. :lmao:


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## Alan92RTTT (Apr 21, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> Alan
> This is well stated, and I can see you have plenty of experience to be able to state it.


I've been a forum admin for over 10 years. We've got over 2 million posts.


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## Alan92RTTT (Apr 21, 2010)

MY co-workers consistently joke about the volume of Mt. Dew I consume. Programmers need their caffeine


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## dom yo (Apr 21, 2010)

Alan92RTTT said:


> MY co-workers consistently joke about the volume of Mt. Dew I consume. Programmers need their caffeine


yes they do!
redbull, starbucks, and mt dew is all i need in my life


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## gsgary (Apr 21, 2010)

Some get bashed because they ask silly questions before they have even read the manual or searched for a thread where it has been answered before 
I think i could be one of them you are having a ***** about  I dont like to gloss over the truth because it is no good telling someone a photo is good when its not, they will carry on making the same mistakes


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## dom yo (Apr 21, 2010)

erose86 said:


> dom yo said:
> 
> 
> > Alan92RTTT said:
> ...


redbull just makes me alert, coffee (mainly starbucks) gives me tons of energy, mt dew is a good mix between the two

5lbs?! you camera is going to weigh half of you!


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## Alan92RTTT (Apr 21, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Alan92RTTT said:
> 
> 
> > MY co-workers consistently joke about the volume of Mt. Dew I consume. Programmers need their caffeine
> ...



MY wife bitches at me all the time. Not because I drink 3-4 20oz bottles a day but because I can go no caffeine over the weekend or on a trip with no effect on me. 


I grew up with Iced tea being the drink in the house. dew does not have much caffeine in comparison


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

benhasajeep said:


> I agree with the OP and the beginners should be allowed to ask the same questions over and over agian.  Nothing says if you have seen and answered a question 500 times you have to do it again.  Nobody is twisting your arm to answer, especially in a short abrasive manner.  Let someone else take the reins thats willing to answer.  As for honnest critique there is nothing wrong with it.  But what you have to remmeber is if you use terms like "the picture is soft" or similar and thats it.  Does the newbie know what that means?  Have to remember a newbie may not know the lingo.  Obviously "picture sucks" and nothing else, that comment helps no one.  But even when you take the time to give a short sentence on why you don't like the pictures maybe your use of technical terms is not understood.   Replies have to be at the level of the forum.  Since its a beginners forum longer explanations are probably in order.  Again nobody is forcing you to read them or reply to them.  So why reply if you don't want to or will be abrasive in your reply.  Stick to the advanced forums.  Let others deal with the newbies.
> 
> I think people forget an online community is a "social interaction" not just an information source.  Yes maybe the answer is in 500 posts or online in websites, or in volumes of reference manuals.  But there is no social interaction with those sources.  Part of the act of joining the site is not to just get answers, but also the communication between people with similar interests in the subject of the particular site.
> 
> Let the beginners be beginners!



^^ That!

Some say that forums are harsh and brutal and that the "real world" is also like that as well so forums should be too  Kind of an "I was beaten and so I shall beat you" argument I feel and I've never ever liked it or the mentality that thinking that way leads to.

As for forums always being harsh and with problems - meh - it seems to happen to many (esp bigger ones) but one I am on (with 1million + posts - albeit smaller than here) which handles story writing and critique almost totally lacks an abusive climate (And writers are just as much artists as photographers and just as attached to their writings). Sure there is the odd spat and fight but overall there is not the tone of hostility toward new members.


I say let beginner be beginners and if you don't want to reply - well then don't. No need to be rude to the person nor discriminate against them - just hold your tongue. IF you want to foster an advanced community it does not happen by alienating and "losing" the beginners at all. It starts with nurturing the beginners - offering help and creating a community that people want to join and be a part of - from there attracting advanced members is often not that hard and heck some of those beginners might stick around long enough to be tomorrows advanced members (even if many never realise the fact).

I have no idea why some people choose to always stir the pot against beginners in some form of rebellion against them - what is it that drives this - bordem, jealousy, naturally bad temperment?


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

gsgary said:


> Some get bashed because they ask silly questions before they have even read the manual or searched for a thread where it has been answered before
> I think i could be one of them you are having a ***** about  I dont like to gloss over the truth because it is no good telling someone a photo is good when its not, they will carry on making the same mistakes



Aye but most would perfer more elaboration on the point rather than just the point itself. Simply saying "overexposed" "clipped the red colour channel" etc... can often mean nothing to a new member. Heck if you said the last to me when I started you'd have got a  me. Explination of a point is the first step to education - the second (and highly important step) is the suggestion of a (or multiple) possible solutions to the problem - be the in camera or editing methods. 

This is what people are after - its not the first part - the identification of errors alone - its that and the second - the suggestion of corrections. Because when one starts they don't know the how in order to correct the mistakes even if they are shown them.


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## Derrel (Apr 21, 2010)

No, this is not the Beginner's Forum, it is the off-topic RedBull Kicks My A$$, I Thought This Is a Giant, System-wide ChatRoom forum...


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## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

The problem with the internet is it let anonymous folks hiding behind keyboard to be rude and obnoxious.  I belong to many forums and this is a common theme.  I also noticed that the majority of the offender are younger people who have no tact or social skills.  The art world is no harsher then any other profession in real life.  Life is rough.  However, I don't recall EVER when I was in school, a teacher would call me out in front of a class, and say that I suck.  I don't recall EVER my boss say my work suck when we are alone much less in public.  If you want to be treated like a professional, then act like one.  I serious doubt that anyone here would talk to a person face to face the way they talk here on the forum.  Instead of telling someone to get thicker skin, perhaps we should try to change the behavior of the offenders.

Now, If a newbie ask a dumb question that irritate you, just move on.  If you want to share your passion, want the art to grow, then be patient and teach.  Use simple language they can understand.


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## Rosshole (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> The problem with the internet is it let anonymous folks hiding behind keyboard to be rude and obnoxious. I belong to many forums and this is a common theme. I also noticed that the majority of the offender are younger people who have no tact or social skills. The art world is no harsher then any other profession in real life. Life is rough. However, I don't recall EVER when I was in school, a teacher would call me out in front of a class, and say that I suck. I don't recall EVER my boss say my work suck when we are alone much less in public. If you want to be treated like a professional, then act like one. I serious doubt that anyone here would talk to a person face to face the way they talk here on the forum. Instead of telling someone to get thicker skin, perhaps we should try to change the behavior of the offenders.
> 
> Now, If a newbie ask a dumb question that irritate you, just move on. If you want to share your passion, want the art to grow, then be patient and teach. Use simple language they can understand.


 
Well said.


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## myfotoguy (Apr 21, 2010)

Overread said:


> benhasajeep said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with the OP and the beginners should be allowed to ask the same questions over and over agian. Nothing says if you have seen and answered a question 500 times you have to do it again. Nobody is twisting your arm to answer, especially in a short abrasive manner. Let someone else take the reins thats willing to answer. As for honnest critique there is nothing wrong with it. But what you have to remmeber is if you use terms like "the picture is soft" or similar and thats it. Does the newbie know what that means? Have to remember a newbie may not know the lingo. Obviously "picture sucks" and nothing else, that comment helps no one. But even when you take the time to give a short sentence on why you don't like the pictures maybe your use of technical terms is not understood. Replies have to be at the level of the forum. Since its a beginners forum longer explanations are probably in order. Again nobody is forcing you to read them or reply to them. So why reply if you don't want to or will be abrasive in your reply. Stick to the advanced forums. Let others deal with the newbies.
> ...


 
Well said. 

Random thoughts:
Honest, truthful, valuable feedback can be given without being blunt and harsh. 

Although, I do recognize it can be difficult to word your response in a way that it doesn't come across as rude. Especially in an online response it can be hard to tell the tone and intention of the response. But, I do from time to time see responses that seem to lack any attempt at being respectful. 

Truthful, honest feedback can still be done in a respectful way. It's a fine line and comes down to personal opinion I guess. But to expect everyone to have thick skin to the comments that obviously were made without any attempt at being respectful does not seem very useful to me. Especially since many "newbies" are already unsure about what they got themselves into, and they need honest feedback, not rude feedback. Being harsh and honest doesnt help, while being truthful and honest does.

Like I said, its a fine line, and IMO the newbie does have some responsibility to take some of the feedback with a grain of salt and consider the core of the message, not the way it was delivered. But still, some folks do blatantly cross the line into rudeness. And dont seem to have any consideration for how the other individual may take the response. The attitude seems to be If you dont like it, then leave. Whey does the person asking for feedback have to be subjected to that? Common courtesy is all Im saying. For the most part, I see it here, and am thankful for that. 

When I see outright rudeness, I have learned to ignore those comments, but I have been on forums for a long time, so maybe that experience helps me to mine out the truth from the rudeness. When I do see disrespectful rudeness though, I feel sorry for the OP, especially so if they are new to the forum, and the hobby.

Alright, done rambling. I Just wanted to throw my opinion in too as to how I feel about this hot topic. I found it insightful to read the many responses. Thanks.


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## white (Apr 21, 2010)

You know what I think is rude? When someone asks for criticism and you give it to them, and they don't thank you or acknowledge your post.

This isn't a one-way street.


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosshole said:


> ghpham said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the internet is it let anonymous folks hiding behind keyboard to be rude and obnoxious. I belong to many forums and this is a common theme. I also noticed that the majority of the offender are younger people who have no tact or social skills. The art world is no harsher then any other profession in real life. Life is rough. However, I don't recall EVER when I was in school, a teacher would call me out in front of a class, and say that I suck. I don't recall EVER my boss say my work suck when we are alone much less in public. If you want to be treated like a professional, then act like one. I serious doubt that anyone here would talk to a person face to face the way they talk here on the forum. Instead of telling someone to get thicker skin, perhaps we should try to change the behavior of the offenders.
> ...


 
Except for the fact that the Internet isn't real life. 

This is EXACTLY why you see way too often people who's lives are ruined by the Internet... people who would never do anything wrong it real life would extort an eldery woman out of her entire estate, husbands who are desperatly in love with their wives seek out the lust of women on the Internet, people who were well respected in their careers have lost their jobs because of things they did on the Internet, people have KILLED themselves over things that have been said on the Internet.... ITS NOT REAL LIFE... DON'T TREAT IT AS SUCH.  If people didn't get so wrapped up in the "reality" of the Internet, none of these things would be problematic.

If you wanted to be treated like a professional, go see a professional... take a class, hire a professional to show you the ropes, go to an art gallery and associate yourself with other professionals. There is nothing professional about the Internet.

You shouldn't trust everything, or anything for that matter, you come across on the Internet... take what you find with a grain of salt and move on with your life.


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## Rosshole (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> Except for the fact that the Internet isn't real life.
> 
> This is EXACTLY why you see way too often people who's lives are ruined by the Internet... people who would never do anything wrong it real life would extort an eldery woman out of her entire estate, husbands who are desperatly in love with their wives seek out the lust of women on the Internet, people who were well respected in their careers have lost their jobs because of things they did on the Internet, people have KILLED themselves over things that have been said on the Internet.... ITS NOT REAL LIFE... DON'T TREAT IT AS SUCH. If people didn't get so wrapped up in the "reality" of the Internet, none of these things would be problematic.
> 
> ...


 
So your goal is to be rude and abrasive because this is fake?

interesting...


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosshole said:


> So your goal is to be rude and abrasive because this is fake?
> 
> interesting...


 
No, not at all.... It has nothing to do with how I carry myself... it has everything to do with what I take out of it.


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## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> Rosshole said:
> 
> 
> > ghpham said:
> ...


 
  I think you just justified why people should treat the internet as REAL LIFE.  The consequences of acting otherwise....well, you just listed them.

By the way, sometime it's hard to keep the two personna separate.  Someday, the internet behavior will get mixed in with real life, then you'll find out what a b!tch that will be.  But, whatever.  I don't know you, and you don't know me.  Carry on.


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes the internet is fake - you all figments of my imagination - now dance my puppets dance! DANCE I say!

.....


You know I've had a few fantastic meet ups with photography groups where I met all the people online - great days out.


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## pbelarge (Apr 21, 2010)

Overread said:


> Yes the internet is fake - you all figments of my imagination - now dance my puppets dance! DANCE I say!
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


 

Were any of those in NY. :mrgreen:


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> [
> I think you just justified why people *should* treat the internet as REAL LIFE. The consequences of acting otherwise....well, you just listed them
> 
> By the way, sometime it's hard to keep the two personna separate. Someday, the internet behavior will get mixed in with real life, then you'll find out what a b!tch that will be. But, whatever. I don't know you, and you don't know me. Carry on.


 
... are you suggesting that there is nothing in your life that you SHOULD be doing, but you aren't?

People don't alway do as they should... and there is no way to change that.


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

hehe nope - both much closer to the big spo..er... London (well ok not that close, but southern wildlife centre meets)


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## Rosshole (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> Rosshole said:
> 
> 
> > So your goal is to be rude and abrasive because this is fake?
> ...


 
So you take nothing out of this forum and don't try to contribute anything because it is fake?


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## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> ghpham said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


 
No.  I am saying that people are acting on the internet like they wouldn't otherwise in real life.  They believe the anominity of the internet "protects" them, but it does not.  You know, like posting themselves beating someone to a pulp thinking noone will find out, only to have the authorities knocking on their door. Thus, many of them get in trouble because they don't think they would get caught.  If people insists on being rude on the net, whatever floats their boat.  Do that long enough and it will get carry over in real life, and then the trouble begins.

No, there is no way for me to change how people behave on the internet.  But that does not mean I condone the behavior and tell people to get "thick skin".


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosshole said:


> Boomn4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > Rosshole said:
> ...


 
No, not at all.  I take what I get out of this forum with a grain of salt... Some may be good, some may be bad, some may be out right lies, some may have the slightest clue what they are talking about.  I don't expect everything I come across as the information I am looking for or the answers to my questions.  If I don't agree with it, I ignore it.  If it offends me, I ignore it.  If it makes sense, I'll probe deeper into it.

At the same time... my contributions are simply that.  I put my $0.02 in like everyone else does.  If you get something out of it, great.  If you are offended by it, that's fine too.  If you want me to go to Hell because of it, more power to you.

I take the Internet for what its worth, and I expect people to do the same.


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> No. I am saying that people are acting on the internet like they wouldn't otherwise in real life. They believe the anominity of the internet "protects" them, but it does not. You know, like posting themselves beating someone to a pulp thinking noone will find out, only to have the authorities knocking on their door. Thus, many of them get in trouble because they don't think they would get caught. If people insists on being rude on the net, whatever floats their boat. Do that long enough and it will get carry over in real life, and then the trouble begins.
> 
> No, there is no way for me to change how people behave on the internet. But that does not mean I condone the behavior and tell people to get "thick skin".


 
I agree 100%... and that is right along with my point.  But I think you are going to an extreme here and getting off base.  This thread is about people being overly critical...in some cases unhelpful.  This isn't about people being destructive or abusive.

The anominity here is not about hiding behind a screen... its about the truth coming out.  Being behind a computer screen is no differnt that having a few drinks to lower you inhabitions, I get a couple glasses of wine into my wife and "no" becomes "now"... is there anything wrong with that?   This is what I'm talking about.  It seems like what you are talking about is people have A LOT of drinks and becoming a total asshat.


----------



## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> ghpham said:
> 
> 
> > No. I am saying that people are acting on the internet like they wouldn't otherwise in real life. They believe the anominity of the internet "protects" them, but it does not. You know, like posting themselves beating someone to a pulp thinking noone will find out, only to have the authorities knocking on their door. Thus, many of them get in trouble because they don't think they would get caught. If people insists on being rude on the net, whatever floats their boat. Do that long enough and it will get carry over in real life, and then the trouble begins.
> ...


 
I guess we agree then?  

I was getting off track I guess, but I've seen off an on here where a poster is told that a picture belongs in a trash can.  That is not critiquing. If that is not being an asshat, I don't know what is.  That is the kind of behavior I alluded to.  Some people are just out to be mean for sake of being mean because they believe nothing can be done to them.


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## Boomn4x4 (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> Some people are just out to be mean for sake of being mean because they believe nothing can be done to them.


 
But honestly, don't we all just get into a situation where something gets under our skin and you just blow a gasket.  There isn't anything unnatural about getting irriated, right or wrong, about something and saying something you probably shouldn't have.

I'm a member a many of Internet forums, I own a few myself.  I'm sure if I added them up, I've got tens of thousands of posts over the past decade or so.  I've seen those people that you are talking about over and over again... and the honest truth is, they don't last very long at all.  Eventually people either get irritated by them and ignore them all together or the administrators of the board identify them and ban them.

I really do stand firm in that you really just do need to have thick skin if you are going to be posting things on the Internet... especially if you are asking for a critique.  Stop letting people bother you, take what you read with a grain of salt and move on with your life.  While it makes for a great discussion... there's no reason to start a 5 page thread over it.


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

white said:


> You know what I think is rude? When someone asks for criticism and you give it to them, and they don't thank you or acknowledge your post.
> 
> This isn't a one-way street.


 

Amen brother.

Question: Is it better to give blunt C&C, even if lacking in tact and overall comprehensiveness, than to ignore the thread and move on? I would say no, hence I try to give C&C whenever I have an opinion one way or another. Some people already touched on it in this thread, that the worst thing is having a photo with 200 views and no replies. Is it better to know that the photo sucks for unknown reasons, than to maybe think that it's the bee's knee's? Hell yes!


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## Derrel (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> .... fill out in triplicate and return to the to moderators of this site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So brilliant, I felt compelled to quote it. Not sure what got your feelings hurt McMommy, but I think the Beginner's Forum has a lot of potential for those who will do a forum search for simple questions, and especially for questions about buying one beginner's camera versus another manufacturer's competing model. I think sometimes people who post the same question as 30 or 40 prior posters are entering into the zone where they will almost surely be hit by crossfire from both sides. As far as photo criticism, many people offer up sugar-coated platitudes for bad work so as not to offend, but I think it helps for people who want C&C to take a bit of the responsibility for what they receive by **framing their request** for C&C with some guidelines as to what they expect. For example: I think it helps for people to ask about areas they wish to hear opinions on, like, "How is the color saturation on this?" or, "How is this, compositionally speaking?" or, "How could I make this better in terms of posing?" and so on.
Instead, what we often see is a simple, C&C appreciated...


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## Alan92RTTT (Apr 21, 2010)

The best C&C is the one that is listened to. 

If its not about bluntness. You can be nice but blunt you can be rude and blunt. If you are too nice the person may not take the issue with their image as seriously as they should. If you are rude the person may just ignore you and your criticism that my be perfectly valid. Then time you took to leave it could be wasted.


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## pbelarge (Apr 21, 2010)

fokker said:


> white said:
> 
> 
> > Is it better to know that the photo sucks for unknown reasons, than to maybe think that it's the bee's knee's? Hell yes!
> ...


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

manaheim said:


> Whether it was his intent or not, I had my eyes initially opened to some of these ideas by cloud.  Listen to him.  He's shmaht.



Thanks but I'm really not that smart. Unlike some I can't pick up a banjo and start playing   However, I have been at this (the arts and photo) for a long time, love it, have paid attention and learned. Most of all I grew hippo skin...




LaFoto said:


> vtf - the many (!) times my posts with photos go down the drain in no time at all with no replies (maybe one) just tell me that apparently my photos are downright boring.



Actually I think the better photos tend to get fewer responses while the really "bad" ones will get pages of them. Remember the S cat photo for example? 




Overread said:


> Some say that forums are harsh and brutal and that the "real world" is also like that as well so forums should be too  Kind of an "I was beaten and so I shall beat you" argument I feel and I've never ever liked it or the mentality that thinking that way leads to.



I don't remember anyone saying it "should be." Only that it is. 




ghpham said:


> The art world is no harsher then any other profession in real life.  Life is rough.  However, I don't recall EVER when I was in school, a teacher would call me out in front of a class, and say that I suck.  I don't recall EVER my boss say my work suck when we are alone much less in public.  If you want to be treated like a professional, then act like one.  I serious doubt that anyone here would talk to a person face to face the way they talk here on the forum.  Instead of telling someone to get thicker skin, perhaps we should try to change the behavior of the offenders.
> 
> Now, If a newbie ask a dumb question that irritate you, just move on.  If you want to share your passion, want the art to grow, then be patient and teach.  Use simple language they can understand.



You say the art world is no harsher but then you give us examples that combined with my story about "this is trash" would show that it is. Maybe you didn't read my previous posts... Let's not forget that, after all, to an artist, those works are our babies. 

Are you an artist? Have you ever shown or tried?  If not go try and let us know how it feels. I have very thick skin but it still hurts. You can never totally get rid of that.

As for moving on when you see a dumb question or a really bad photo, good idea and I do it all the time, but in case you haven't noticed some of those people then complain they don't get any responses... bump... bump... is it really that bad?


----------



## gsgary (Apr 21, 2010)

Overread said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Some get bashed because they ask silly questions before they have even read the manual or searched for a thread where it has been answered before
> ...




Come on i do help sometimes  i dont want them to get as good as me


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## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> You say the art world is no harsher but then you give us examples that combined with my story about "this is trash" would show that it is. Maybe you didn't read my previous posts... Let's not forget that, after all, to an artist, those works are our babies.
> 
> Are you an artist? Have you ever shown or tried? If not go try and let us know how it feels. I have very thick skin but it still hurts. You can never totally get rid of that.
> 
> As for moving on when you see a dumb question or a really bad photo, good idea and I do it all the time, but in case you haven't noticed some of those people then complain they don't get any responses... bump... bump... is it really that bad?


 
The story I've given is an example of what I've seen here on this forum off and on (especially from one member who have now been banned).  That said, if I ever run into that kind of language, I would dismiss the person as being a non professional ignorant ass.  It is one thing to give constructive criticism, and quite another to be vindictive.  The art world is no more special then any other environment in real life.  I've been through many different work environment in my career to know that there will be at least one ignorant vindictive ass in all of them.  You've said so yourself that it hurts dispite your thick skin when at the receiving end of such a criticism.  Why then you would be dismissive of such behavior here?


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

gsgary said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



hehe true  - but we do have to prod you with the spiky stick to get a bit more out sometimes 
And besides how can we ever get as good without 300mm f2.8 IS L lenses - now if we all had them you'd been on a run for your money


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## gsgary (Apr 21, 2010)

Overread said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



I don't allways use it this was taken with a £60 Cosina 
http://gsgary.smugmug.com/Sports/Derby-Sporting-MCC-motox/Image00025/138512747_NJd6o-L.jpg


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## Dao (Apr 21, 2010)

gsgary said:


> I don't allways use it this was taken with a £60 Cosina
> http://gsgary.smugmug.com/Sports/Derby-Sporting-MCC-motox/Image00025/138512747_NJd6o-L.jpg




If that is the 19-35mm Cosina ......   you were standing too CLOSE.  HAHAHA


----------



## BeansproutsPhoto (Apr 21, 2010)

gsgary said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



I can vouch for Gaz!! :lmao: his advice helped me!! (See Gaz, ask and you shall receive.  )


----------



## gsgary (Apr 21, 2010)

Dao said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > I don't allways use it this was taken with a £60 Cosina
> ...



Yes it is, i nearly got my head knocked off


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> Why then you would be dismissive of such behavior here?



The constant utterly idiotic posts of someone who got banned recently (and I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same person) are not what I'm talking about. People like that are far from being the majority.

I'm talking about people like myself. Someone who is far from perfect, can be blunt, can even be downright pissy sometimes but, if you stick around, you'll find out how much I have to offer...

I am no angel and most of us are not and let's not forget that non-pro writers don't always express themselves the best way in writing. Life is far from perfect and the internet is only a reflection of that with the added communication problem.

Yes, it would be great if we could all be like Dominantly or Overread but it's not going to happen because it doesn't happen in the non-virtual world. Life is a mix and so are forums. What you call being dismissive, I call being realistic.


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## McMommy (Apr 21, 2010)

Derrel said:


> For example: I think it helps for people to ask about areas they wish to hear opinions on, like, "How is the color saturation on this?" or, "How is this, compositionally speaking?" or, "How could I make this better in terms of posing?" and so on.
> Instead, what we often see is a simple, C&C appreciated...




I like this idea! Hadn't thought of it, but I will be more specific in the future with my C&C requests, so that I can improve on things within my limits. :thumbup:


----------



## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> ghpham said:
> 
> 
> > Why then you would be dismissive of such behavior here?
> ...


 
I've seen your posts, and they are not what I would say "blunt", but maybe I have not been here long enough 

Ok...it's time to move on.  Lots of pics to take and critique


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> Ok...it's time to move on.  Lots of pics to take and critique



:thumbup:


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 21, 2010)

After you all create your Utopia here, I'd suggest you tackle people driving. Or maybe even grocery store etiquette.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> After you all create your Utopia here, I'd suggest you tackle people driving. Or maybe even grocery store etiquette.



Well, I tried very hard in GA to have cell phones banned while driving. No go but it seems they may ban texting while driving. It's a start 


But I want to know more about grocery store etiquette :lmao:


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## ghpham (Apr 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> After you all create your Utopia here, I'd suggest you tackle people driving. Or maybe even grocery store etiquette.


 
One thing at a time...


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## Overread (Apr 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> After you all create your Utopia here, I'd suggest you tackle people driving. Or maybe even grocery store etiquette.



One step at a time 

And I already started on the grocery store etiquette last night :mrgreen: - offered the person behind me my place in the line - I had a basket whilst they were holding an armfull of stuff without a basket.


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## Gaerek (Apr 21, 2010)

McMommy said:


> I wanted to mention something, before I get too comfortable here, in the event that maybe I'm on the wrong kind of board.
> 
> 
> This part of the forum is for beginners right? People who consider themselves beginners, anyway. Where others can come and give feedback in a constructive, polite, and courteous way, knowing full well they are commenting on non-pro work?
> ...



Man, I wish I would have seen this thread when it was posted. I've read through some responses, but haven't gone to all 7 pages. My one question to you is, can you please link to just a couple of these threads you're talking about? It's pretty easy to come here and say, "I've been noticing this trend!" when there really isn't a trend at all. Instead, it's one person who was having a bad day, replying to a newbie who either:

a) Asked a question that would have gotten better results in a google search.

or

b) was given good advice (probably in a previous thread) and completely ignored it because they thought the person giving them direct and honest feedback was being 'mean.'

Please read the thread about C&C linked in my sig. It's almost a counter argument to what the OP of this thread said.

Lastly, please, link these threads so I can see for myself this "newbie bashing" I'm hearing so much about. Because, I've been here a long time, and I know I have rarely seen it myself.


----------



## Dominantly (Apr 21, 2010)

ghpham said:


> Boomn4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > ghpham said:
> ...


Not all of us. I'm way worse in person, in fact just today I called out about 5 different people in a group setting, at varying times; for saying something stupid.

Maybe it's because I'm in the military and a badass though.... dunno:er:


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## MattxMosh (Apr 21, 2010)

I would like to point out that this thread is long, overly composed, and cluttered.

Recompose, simplify a bit, and try again, I know you all have it in you to say, this thread has been done before, how do I do it different next time so its _good_.

Not to say its not hilarious.


----------



## Gaerek (Apr 21, 2010)

MattxMosh said:


> I would like to point out that this thread is long, overly composed, and cluttered.
> 
> Recompose, simplify a bit, and try again, I know you all have it in you to say, this thread has been done before, how do I do it different next time so its _good_.
> 
> Not to say its not hilarious.



Why are you so mean? Please don't give such harsh critique of this thread. We're trying our best, I mean, this is a beginners forum. Sheesh, be nice.

:er:


----------



## burnws6 (Apr 21, 2010)

Pussies.


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## Aye-non Oh-non Imus (Apr 21, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> .......... Because, *I've been here a long time*, and I know I have rarely seen it myself.


 All 11 months on them.


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## Dominantly (Apr 21, 2010)

burnws6 said:


> Pussies.


where :greenpbl:





Lord, I apologize


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## MattxMosh (Apr 21, 2010)

Dominantly said:


> burnws6 said:
> 
> 
> > Pussies.
> ...



There aren't many cat pictures in this forum. Lots of dogs though.

Speaking of which this is the internet, and a photography forum, it should be bursting at the seams with LOLCATS.


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## Gaerek (Apr 21, 2010)

Aye-non Oh-non Imus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > .......... Because, *I've been here a long time*, and I know I have rarely seen it myself.
> ...



Hmm, and you know that I haven't lurked here longer? Or maybe posted under a different name, how? That has got to be one of the most ignorant statements made on this thread so far. I guess it's true what they say, about what happens when we ass-ume.


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## fokker (Apr 21, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> fokker said:
> 
> 
> > Is it better to know that the photo sucks for unknown reasons, than to maybe think that it's the bee's knee's? Hell yes!
> ...


 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree there. 
Where I'm coming from is this: The types of comments that I mentioned (calling a photo bad with no justification given) are actaully _very_ uncommon around here, and while I don't necessarily agree that it's a good way to give C&C, and it's not how I do it myself, I still think these comments are not without purpose. For one, they can open the floodgates for other people who are too 'nice' to be the first one to hurt someones feelings to let their opinons be know as well. Secondly, these comments will often generate discusiion as to why the particualr photo is crap, to which the 'mean commenter' may choose to reply in more detail, or others may do so. Thirdly, a thread with lots of views and no replies tells the poster absolutely nothing whatsoever about their work - even if just one person says they don't like it for an undisclosed reason and then the thread dies then at least the OP is forced to take a bit of a harder look at their own work and wonder why the only person who bothered to post thinks it's rubbish.

Food for thought anyway.


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## pbelarge (Apr 21, 2010)

Fokker

the jist of my comment was simply to provide a simple reason for the comment as to how bad one may think any shot is. It goes a long way to keeping the comments/ forum civil.


This portion of my comment is general in nature, and not directed towards any individual.





I have been around long enough (in life) to see what was once taught as respect of others to, lately almost completely be disregarded in favor of "do what I want regardless of others". The world seems to be heading toward a very 'distant place'. Yet it does not have to...


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## Aye-non Oh-non Imus (Apr 21, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> Hmm, and you know that I haven't lurked here longer? Or maybe posted under a different name, how?


Wouldn't that be cheating?  One can only go on what is presented. 
Gaerek
Join Date: May 2009



Gaerek said:


> That has got to be one of the most ignorant statements made on this thread so far.


I've seen worse.  Put your big girl panties on.



Gaerek said:


> I guess it's true what they say, about what happens when we ass-ume.


Likewise, I'm sure.


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## mikehawk (Apr 21, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> .... fill out in triplicate and return to the to moderators of this site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol! i wish we had these in tradoc. ds' would've had fun.


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## jajomo (Apr 21, 2010)

IMHO....all this time discussing this tired and boring thread would be better put to use telling use noobs we suck and and how to fix it. I don't care if your nice or not. Just someone end this thread please!!!!!!!


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## Gaerek (Apr 21, 2010)

Aye-non Oh-non Imus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm, and you know that I haven't lurked here longer? Or maybe posted under a different name, how?
> ...


 
Cheating? Huh? You're the one trying to invalidate my post using join  date as an argument. That makes as much sense as me trying to use post  count as a way to invalidate your argument. That might have worked on  the Internet circa 2002. You assumed that my join date represented the actual time I've spent here. You also assumed that join date has relevance to the original topic or my post (hint: It doesn't!). 



Aye-non Oh-non Imus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > That has got to be one of the most ignorant statements made on this thread so far.
> ...



Ahhh, the ad hominem attack. Still waiting for you to actually comment on the content of my post, and not my join date. It's cool to use gender as a way to put someone down, but I'm going to guess the females here probably won't like that. The fact that you've now attempted (unsuccesfully!) to attack me personally is very telling. 



Aye-non Oh-non Imus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > I guess it's true what they say, about what happens when we ass-ume.
> ...



I'm not the one making any assumptions here. Try again!

You missed the actual point of what I was saying. I didn't say it explicitly, but I figured you'd be able to see that I trying to show you that join date has absolutely zero relevance here or anywhere for that matter.

To summarize: Join date doesn't matter! Content does!


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## vtf (Apr 21, 2010)

:addpics::addpics::addpics:


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## Aye-non Oh-non Imus (Apr 21, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> .........To summarize: Join date doesn't matter! Content does!


Aren't we testy tonight? I do believe this rebuttal is an affirmation of what the OP was concerned about in a covert manner. The way a thread can so easily derail by ego. Yours or mine, it does not matter. Someone has to get the last word in. It's not likely to be mine, but neither do I care. I suppose the right thing to do is take ownership and admit that I neglected to add a smiley at the end of my initial response of "*All 11 months on them."   * My bad, does that help the boo-boo? As I mentioned earlier, one can only go on the facts as they are presented (in reference to join date), one can also make assessments on the tone and viciousness of ones' defensive rhetoric. It is a shame that some people have such a low knowledge, useage or understanding of satire. The fact you want to go on the attack with such a miniscule accelerant speaks volumes of your content and your (on-line) character. You, sir or madam, have nothing to offer of any great substance in my view if this is your best retort. Undoubtedly, I will match wits with better adversaries that can use a sharp tounge without the degradation of persona. However, sadly I must also admit that none of my comments in this thread have contributed any real significance to the topic. Perhaps I should just sashay off: exit stage left.  Wheeeeeeee.............


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> After you all create your Utopia here, I'd suggest you tackle people driving. Or maybe even grocery store etiquette.



Come on, we've managed to turn a potential hate fest into a love fest. Not so bad for a couple days work. If only we could do the same with political matters...




Gaerek said:


> Please read the thread about C&C linked in my sig.



I'd forgotten about that one. Probably because I had to leave mid-argument but, yes, I just re-read it, and it was a very good thread. I'm even amazed at what cool things I can say sometimes :lmao:




Dominantly said:


> burnws6 said:
> 
> 
> > Pussies.
> ...



Just look in the mirror. Aren't most military people really just big pussies instead of the bad-asses they want to think they are? :lmao:

Btw, I'm only partially kidding. Over the years, I've found that most hard-asses are actually big pussies. Rub them the right way and they start purring. The only military people who seriously disturbed me were a unit of the French Foreign Legion I followed for a few weeks once.




jajomo said:


> IMHO....all this time discussing this tired and boring thread would be better put to use telling use noobs we suck and and how to fix it. I don't care if your nice or not. Just someone end this thread please!!!!!!!



:thumbup:  Let's move on, says the man who seems to keep coming back even though he said he was moving on.


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## Gaerek (Apr 22, 2010)

Aye-non Oh-non Imus said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > .........To summarize: Join date doesn't matter! Content does!
> ...



Don't feel like reading your block-o-text. Next time, try splitting your ideas into paragraphs, mmm-kay? You aren't worth my time anymore, and the fact that you still don't get the point (since you're still arguing) tells me that pride has finally crept in.  You win? Does that feel good? Now back to the subject at hand.

The problem with what the OP is bringing up isn't so much that there's a huge pattern of "Your photo sucks!" so much as a pattern of people being honest and telling what they dislike about a photo. I asked for examples of threads where people are newbie bashing, and I still haven't seen it. I'm not saying it isn't going on, but I am fairly certain it's not as big of a problem as the OP believes it is.

To answer the OP's question, is this a beginners forum or not. The answer is yes. It's a place for beginners to go and get honest feedback about their work so they can get better. If people don't want this feedback, go post in the Just For Fun forum. There you won't have to worry about being given feedback. You won't progress from being a beginner either, but you can keep your feelings intact also.

The moment my photographic skills got better was the moment I stopped taking the C&C I was getting personally. People were rude and abrasive, but most importantly, they were honest! I've never had someone say anything like "Your photos suck." Separate your emotions from your photograph and what people are saying and I can guarantee you will start to see an improvement in your work.

I must mention this also. If you don't really care to get better (and there are some of you out there, I'm sure), then maybe this really isn't the place for you. Of all the photography forums I've gone to, this is the most honest. It comes off as abrasive, but at least you will get some good feedback that you can use to make your photograph better.


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## mwolfe (May 5, 2010)

I like the direct method.  Don't waste words (because I can't type fast).  One of the problems with chats/IM/texting/e-mail is the loss of verbal cues that let the reader know the tone of the answer--so try not to read too much into a critique.  IT IS WHAT IT IS.  Choose to listen and learn or move on.

The fact that you have not yet been royally flamed after posting your original comment, proves the quality of the people using this forum.


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