# "Everyone with a camera calls themself a photographer..."



## Luna (May 27, 2008)

.


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## Arch (May 27, 2008)

i think there is an almost identical topic to this in the discussions section at the moment... i really dont know if its worth starting another one.

ah yes this one.... http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123865


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## Iron Flatline (May 27, 2008)

Any person operating a vehicle is a driver. 

Chauffeurs, truckers, and racers are all professional drivers. They do different kinds of driving. 

Any person operating a camera is a photographer. That does not make them a professional.


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## GeorgiaOwl (May 27, 2008)

I am a flyfisherman....and let me tell you, when the movie " A River Runs Through It" came out, the flyfishing sport/hobby was FILLED with new folks wanting to catch fish on a fly rod. These folks had little or no skill, and some of them thought that the fly rod they bought, or the flies or the wader brand - would make them the best flyfishers that ever set foot in a river. Some even thought they needed a wide brimmed hat and a cigar. 

Sound familiar? 

But the thing is......some of those people had the sense and intelligence to actually learn about flyfishing and today they are as adept with a flyrod as any of us that have been doing it for decades! 

And I knew alot of grumpy ole' fly fishermen that were not at all happy about all the new people getting into the sport. 

That sounds familiar too, doesn't it?


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## Village Idiot (May 27, 2008)

Luna said:


> It does sound familiar. I think that's the difference... people who make an effort to learn, and people who just do it without learning any of the techniques or anything like that. That's why I was contacting her in the first place, to _learn_. But I guess she didn't like that too much.


 
I'd tell her to go F herself and that the first $5 I made, I'd donate it to her...because she's going to need it for her retirement fund when I put her out of business.

But that's just me and I can be an ass most of the time.


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## Atropine (May 27, 2008)

Well, I have seen some beginners here with practically no clue about wb and proper lighting and yet they persist with watermarking their photos with something like "Steves Photography". Cracks me up every time.

I mean, is it that shameful to be doing photography at an amateur level? Adding full name would have been understandable, but adding something that sounds like a company/professional establishment is just weird.


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## tedE (May 27, 2008)

everyones allowed to brand themselves however they want. 

some people make careers out of complete bull****ery and false imagery


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## Socrates (May 27, 2008)

Iron Flatline said:


> Any person operating a vehicle is a driver.
> 
> Chauffeurs, truckers, and racers are all professional drivers. They do different kinds of driving.
> 
> Any person operating a camera is a photographer. That does not make them a professional.


Not me.
I'm a snapshooter with a really nice camera and a bunch of lenses to go with it!


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## GeorgiaOwl (May 27, 2008)

maybe Steve gets paid for his photography?

People buy bad art all the time. doesn't make the artist any less of an artist.


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## Alpha (May 27, 2008)

Being annoyed is being defensive. And people act defensive when scared. Unless there is a compelling reason to fear amateurs, then there's no reason to be annoyed.


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## julie32 (May 27, 2008)

Alpha, I love your response here. And couldn't agree more.


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## Rick Waldroup (May 27, 2008)

Luna said:


> So... how do you feel about this statement? I recently got an email back from a long-time photographer (I was asking to shadow them when they shoot weddings) and she gave me this long response about how people like me are why the industry is struggling and that nowadays, everyone with a camera calls themself a photographer. While this may be true to a certain extent, that doesn't make them (us, me) any less _worthy_. That statement just really bugs me. Everyone has to start somewhere.


 
Oh, I get it.  You want to receive some free training so that one day you may become her competitor shooting weddings.  And then, after a while, when you realize how hard it is to shoot weddings and make a decent living doing it, you call it quits in a year or so and go back to your normal day job.  Or you just become a weekend warrior, undercuting her prices, but you never really have any intentions of doing this full time.  

I don't blame her at all for the response she gave you.


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## Dioboleque (May 27, 2008)

What a *****-a-rooni-dooni!

If people like you are what's wrong with the industry then people like her are what's wrong with the world!

If she didn't want to help you she should have left it at that, there was no reason to crap all over your ambitions... I'm sure she got no help getting into the industry... did it all by herself right? 

Unfortunately she's free to be an ass, just don't let it get you down! :sillysmi:


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## Stillsky (May 27, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> Oh, I get it.  You want to receive some free training so that one day you may become her competitor shooting weddings.  And then, after a while, when you realize how hard it is to shoot weddings and make a decent living doing it, you call it quits in a year or so and go back to your normal day job.  Or you just become a weekend warrior, undercuting her prices, but you never really have any intentions of doing this full time.
> 
> I don't blame her at all for the response she gave you.



So now it's a bad thing to want to apprentice?


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## usayit (May 27, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Being annoyed is being defensive. And people act defensive when scared. Unless there is a compelling reason to fear amateurs, then there's no reason to be annoyed.



Agreed... never understood the defensive nature of us photographers...
People like Judges and doctors are the only ones that should be defensive.


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## D-50 (May 27, 2008)

From everything I have experinced, heard and read it appears established pros are very nervous right now.   Typical responses are "the industry is flooded right now so dont attempt to get into it" or "its a dying industry I would look for a different career" These statements are absurd and appear to be more of a pro not wanting competition than a pro really caring about my well being in life.  If an amerature posses that much of a threatl then maybe your skills as a professional are not that great. If I can produce the same images you create with 1/5 the equiptment cost are my images not as good.  To me many pros are elitists and if you didn't study photography in school and work under many people than your work is worth nothing.  

I dont think Tiger woods is telling anyone "you sould not even take up golf its already too cmpetative and all you're gong to do is huirt me because you undercut my prices"  If you're a pro than act like it and take photos that I cannot. If you cant than I guess either I am a pro as well or you are just an amerature.


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## Jus7 A Phas3 (May 27, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Well, I have seen some beginners here with practically no clue about wb and proper lighting and yet they persist with watermarking their photos with something like "Steves Photography". Cracks me up every time.
> 
> I mean, is it that shameful to be doing photography at an amateur level? Adding full name would have been understandable, but adding something that sounds like a company/professional establishment is just weird.



It bugs me when people do that.


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## JerryPH (May 27, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> I don't blame her at all for the response she gave you.


 
Wow, someone is a little bitter? 

I second shoot for a wedding photographer, with absolutely NO intention of ever turning pro... or maybe I will... I do not know, matter of fact it is not important. What is important was what could I return to the photographer in return to what they would be giving me.

Many new photographers want to learn by being mentored in real life, there is nothing wrong with that, however... I will let people in on a secret as to why I think I so easily found a 'tog that would let me do it whereas some others will find it difficult:

- I educated myself in the basics and was strong in them BEFORE asking to be mentored. A professional is paid for their time. They do not want to spend hours teaching someone "the basics".

- I developed a small portfolio in digital and print format for their perusal.

- I displayed a desire to learn from them and to offer them the benefits of their education for their benefit.

- I expected NOTHING in return other than knowledge and the right to ask questions in a manner and time that would not interfere with their business.

- I never appeared threatening to their business, or livelyhood.

- I appeared (and sincerely was!) enthusiastic about the opportunity.

- I would NEVER do it over the phone or internet... face to face is the ONLY way to go!

What would put me off if someone asking me to mentor them, spend my time, risk my business... and they had not even taken the time to understand and the basics well and know their own camera to perfection.

If the professional is both good, locally respected, and confident in their own skills, they have no problems sharing under the right circumstances. 

Don't go to a pro expecting them to teach you the difference between shutter or aperture priority and even remotely take you seriously.

I approached it with the same zeal I would a job interview, and was succesful on my 2nd attempt (first one was very insecure and not very friendly, so I wished them well and moved on). Don't give up, but don't expect freebies without doing your own homework in advance. One almost has to come into the situation with the attitude that someone will prostitute you so that you can learn the ropes. For me, I was just fine with that... lol.

The first 3 times I am not even allowed to show you a picture of what I took, noting to add to my portfolio... #4 is coming up in June and not only was I offered the chance again, I will be paid and the pics will be in my portfolio. I was also involved in aspects of the business that I did not expect... I attended the client meetings AND signing event at a restaurant. I was allowed to interact in a manner as if I was a partner in the transaction in the meetings, and representative of the photographer's business. That was a great chance to see how they worked with people.

I am SO looking forward to doing this wedding!


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 27, 2008)

I think I'd need to see both emails before casting judgement on either of you.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 27, 2008)

Well, I just mean that there are 2 sides to everything, so it would be easier to see what she was saying by actually seeing the actual emails between the 2 of you.  Like maybe you are misinterpreting something?  Or maybe she is just a *****?  Just would be easier if we (I?) saw the actual correspondence.


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## K_Pugh (May 27, 2008)

I can totally understand her comment though, that everyone with a camera calls them self a photographer.. i can see it everywhere - Once people start using Aperture Priority and getting shallow DOF they think they're good enough to be called a Photographer. 

Same as mentioned with the watermarks that try to look professional and especially the ones that actually have the word "photography" in them..

I still consider myself a noob even though i've been on and off over the last 4 - 5 years. I would in fact cringe at myself if i were to call myself a photographer.. in the same respect that i'd have to correct someone if they called me a photographer .. "nah it's just a hobby".

You see a lot of questions with people new to the game asking how they could make money out of their photographs even though they've not been at it for long.. it's not going to happen unless you're naturally a 'pro' lol.

I'll never call myself a photographer until the day where i can visualise in my head exactly what i want, use the right tools and get it right first time, and even then i think the end photograph would need to be used in some way professionally as well.

No harm to anyone with ambition with a true desire to learn about the trade and spend time doing so, after all, that's why we're all here, isn't it?

And no harm to pro photographers being a little bitter, as mentioned that sort of thing happens everywhere in everything, we tend to be defensive over the things we've worked on over our lives and it is only natural to feel threatened in some way.. i think once you've done it so long you probably forget the mountain you had to climb to get where you are and would even possibly consider it easy as it's probably now second nature to you and hence why you'd feel easily threatened.

Dunno.. what what the question?


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## Arch (May 27, 2008)

I think Jerry made some very valid points here.

From my experience you should approach a pro and ask to to be mentored only after either;

1. Having been formally educated with qualifications in photography

Or

2. Can demonstrate a sound self taught understanding of not only the technical aspects of photography but also having a creative edge.

All the pro's i know that have excepted an assistant have only gone for ones with at least a diploma in photography.... with the exception of one, who having a very keen interest, could answer any reasonable tachnical question off the cuff without hessitation.

If it were me, i would either build a portfolio of prints and go round showing pro's what you can do... or create a website and email them the link with an explination of 'i would like to take my photography to the next level'... or something similar.... DO NOT say 'Hi, im just starting out...' you will not get a reply.


As far as what a photographer is, a photographer is simply someone who like to take pictures with a camera... nothing more. In the same way someone who likes to make sculptures in plastcine can call themselves an artist.

Whether the art in question is any good or not is subjective... the art industry comes TOP of the list of allowing anyone to be part of it if they choose... its just the majority won't make anything of thier chosen profession.

I went to art collage in a class of around 32 people... i know of about 6 who are still in the industry of design work, (myself included)... and believe me that number is even less for photography...


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## PuppY_K1ck3R (May 27, 2008)

Oh yea !? well blame Ashton Kutcher and his damn Nikon commercials. Why are DSLRs suddenly becoming mainstream. Im talking about the sudden surge in TV commercials.


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## spiffybeth (May 27, 2008)

ive never seen a dSLR advertised on television

ashton kutcher is advertising the nikon coolpix...whats the big deal?


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## PuppY_K1ck3R (May 27, 2008)

spiffybeth said:


> ive never seen a dSLR advertised on television
> 
> ashton kutcher is advertising the nikon coolpix...whats the big deal?


 

He's also doing D60 commercials. BTW.... the D300 is also in the commercial.


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## spiffybeth (May 27, 2008)

oh. now i feel silly because i hadnt seen that one on tv.


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## jwkwd (May 27, 2008)

Who's Ashton kutcher?


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## lessthan3. (May 27, 2008)

i dont think that its anyones place to tell you what you are or are not. its funny because the people that are professionals pretend like they never had a dream/want to be what they have BECOME. they werent born with a career as a photographer, they had to earn it. much like amateurs are trying to do. instead of giving you knowledge to go off of and try to build your own skills around, they just cut you down. dont let em do that 


and the comments about people who watermark their photos, i dont see what is so comical about it? maybe its just me tho?


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## pm63 (May 27, 2008)

For me, a photographer is anyone who takes photos with the *intention of making art*, as opposed to a holiday family snapshooter. It's as simple as that.

Now, there are good artists and bad ones, but they are still artists and they are photographers if the take photos with artistic intentions. That is how I see it anyway.


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## PuppY_K1ck3R (May 27, 2008)

pm63 said:


> For me, a photographer is anyone who takes photos with the *intention of making art*, as opposed to a holiday family snapshooter. It's as simple as that.
> 
> Now, there are good artists and bad ones, but they are still artists and they are photographers if the take photos with artistic intentions. That is how I see it anyway.


 

Tru dat! On the other subject, I started to watermark my photos because I just want to let people know that this certain photo means something to me and that its my own original work not something i swiped from a site. 

Anyone that takes a photo and conveys an emotion is a photographer to me.


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## tim.bennett (May 27, 2008)

I DO call myself a photographer. Not because i think i am better than the pro's locally. I AM NOT! but do take photographs and not snapshots. My website is a photography website because it shows photography. I plan on making cards. not because i feel i am a great photographer. But because i enjoy showing people my work and it is convenient. 

I am 24 yo and have been taking photographs for over 5 years. And have worked hard for the knowledge i have now. I feel i have a lot to learn but am beyond the absolute basics.


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## ThePup (May 27, 2008)

K_Pugh said:


> I would in fact cringe at myself if i were to call myself a photographer.. in the same respect that i'd have to correct someone if they called me a photographer .. "nah it's just a hobby".



Sounds to me like you ARE a photographer, but a "hobbiest" photographer, rather than a pro - You do it because you enjoy it, and it's a fun way to kill time.  Why does that make you any less of a photographer?


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## Efergoh (May 27, 2008)

I understand the response from both parties here. The OP wants to learn, as should we all. The offended wedding photographer fears competition.

It happens all over. I tried the same thing here looking to hitch onto an established photographer who had a similar response. I blew it off, and never looked back. There is a good bit of competition in this area, and undercutting prices is a valid business tactic anywhere (remember when the gas stations used to do it...boy sure do miss those days).

To the OP; don't worry about it. For every a$$hat who sends you packing, there will be another photographer who will be willing to take you under his/her wing and teach you the trade.

Another thing you might want to look into is a college program if there is one near you. Part of the degree program I am in includes an internship. The school does a lot of the leg work to find photographers, studios, museums, and newspapers who are willing to take on the slave labor.


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## Efergoh (May 27, 2008)

jwkwd said:


> Who's Ashton kutcher?



Exactly.


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## jack lumber (May 27, 2008)

I use a camera, by definition I am a photographer.
 If I owned a Stradivaris  wouldn't automatically be called a violinist.


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## K_Pugh (May 28, 2008)

ThePup said:


> Sounds to me like you ARE a photographer, but a "hobbiest" photographer, rather than a pro - You do it because you enjoy it, and it's a fun way to kill time.  Why does that make you any less of a photographer?



I guess the way i see it is that saying you're a Photographer makes the assumption at you do it professionally in some way or form.. I know what you're saying though, i guess it's just one of those things and in what context you use it in.

I like to mess around with cars and bikes but i'm not a mechanic.. same thing to me really.


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## DSLR noob (May 28, 2008)

Another identical topic (this one's like a year old, but ahh how the search button is useful......):

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79222


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## Battou (May 28, 2008)

Arch said:


> i think there is an almost identical topic to this in the discussions section at the moment... i really dont know if its worth starting another one.
> 
> ah yes this one.... http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123865



In Luna's defence I did kinda poorly name the subject, Merging them might clear that up well enough....But I have not yet read this thread in it's entirety so I am not sure if this is spioraled into a different discussion or not.


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## Battou (May 28, 2008)

^^^:lmao: Super typo is super



Alpha said:


> Being annoyed is being defensive. And people act defensive when scared. Unless there is a compelling reason to fear amateurs, then there's no reason to be annoyed.



Pending ones branch, interests and/or occupation in photography there are compelling reason for fear, but I am not going to get into all of that because the biggest of them has alredy been brought up. Your statement that amateurs are the object of fear is incorrect though, Amateure is merely the prefix attached to those who do not get paid for their work. The fear revolves around those who are unwilling to learn or learn in a proper manor. Like Jerry said, walking up to a recognized pro and asking to teach you is a risk to the pro for several reasons. 

Contrary to popular belief the urge to learn and the will to learn are two different things. I can't tell you howmany times I have seen people ask to be tutored in a subject only to bail out when they realized exatcly what was involved....Major waste of time and effort. Apprenticeship is the final stage of any trade, One needs to learn beyond the basics before they even consider trying for an apprenticeship. If they are not going to go threw and get that far first they are cutting corners. On top of all that there are also the ones who think that because they are apprenticed under such and such will make them more recognizable and advance their own ajenda and really don't care about learning how such and such actually does things. 

So...that said any pro in the position of being asked to mentor is naturally going to fear apprentices who are going to bail on them, cornercutters who can't be botherd to take the courses to know their camera and the cockey "I know what I am doing, how am I supposed to learn if you won't let me do it my way" kids.


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## Senor Hound (May 28, 2008)

Luna said:


> So... how do you feel about this statement? I recently got an email back from a long-time photographer (I was asking to shadow them when they shoot weddings) and she gave me this long response about how people like me are why the industry is struggling and that nowadays, everyone with a camera calls themself a photographer. While this may be true to a certain extent, that doesn't make them (us, me) any less _worthy_. That statement just really bugs me. Everyone has to start somewhere.



It is true to an extent.  With art, there's no way to standardize the industry.  To know accounting, you become a CPA (that's what they call it in the US, at least).  To be a doctor, you become an MD, to become a photographer, you buy a camera and do whatever you want...

But as far as the person who wrote that to you, she must have been PMSing or something, cause that was just rude.  I would personally write her a BLISTERING e-mail back, and start ugly rumors about her.  But that's just me.  And the people who make the industry oversaturated are NOT people like you.  You understand your limits and are trying to learn.  The last time I checked these are admirable traits.

Seriously, I'd call her fat, old, and everything else I could think of in your e-mail back.  Either that or totally make her feel bad (though she's probably a cold-hearted b-word).  And if she doesn't own her own company, I would DEFINITELY report it to her supervisor and tell her that you will do everything in your power to make sure she gets no more business.


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## ThePup (May 28, 2008)

K_Pugh said:


> I like to mess around with cars and bikes but i'm not a mechanic.. same thing to me really.



I've heard the term "Hobby mechanic" used before as well.....

Before I go street shooting again, I want to make up a "Business card" to hand to people who talk to me, with my gallery address and email (Not my primary email!).  I plan on putting "Hobbiest Photographer" on it, because that's what I believe I am.  I'm not up to Amature status, but I'm still, by definition, a photographer!  (Just not as good as most here!)


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## notelliot (May 28, 2008)

PuppY_K1ck3R said:


> He's also doing D60 commercials. BTW.... the D300 is also in the commercial.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPB2P51DApA


this is brilliant. if ashton can shoot a wedding, what's holding _YOU_ back? 

as for attitudes, go back and re-read Jerry's post. i did it the same way, and most people decline, but are people i've still learned from, in some way. 

i remember the first one i tried. he said no politely, but said if i ever wanted to grab a beer or coffee and talk the talk, he was game. 

personally, i have a snotty attitude. i don't think it's necessary always, but some people just don't have the urge to mentor or teach. i fully support anyone trying to get into photography, but don't have the patience to teach. then again, i usually get called an asshole at least twice in a day.


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## JerryPH (May 28, 2008)

notelliot said:


> this is brilliant. if ashton can shoot a wedding, what's holding _YOU_ back?


Indeed! Wedding photogrtaphers of the world... your days of reigning are over 'cause Ashton and his D60 are in the house. lmao!



notelliot said:


> personally, i have a snotty attitude. i don't think it's necessary always, but some people just don't have the urge to mentor or teach. i fully support anyone trying to get into photography, but don't have the patience to teach. then again, i usually get called an asshole at least twice in a day.


 
How about if you met a photographer with great attitude, a solid internediate knowledge base that came to you and said... I desire to bring my photography to the next level, and am willing to do jobs with you as a second shooter... for free? Now say that in a way that makes it sound like a win-win situation for both sides, but that THEY would be getting the better end of the deal.

Would you not at least take a second look at this person and consider their proposal seriously? I did this and it gained me a little meeting at a coffee shop that led to my place as a 2nd wedding shooter now and then.

If you have nothing to offer, don't even bother trying, all they will do is slam the door in your face. Have something to offer, package it up with a nice bow and give it to them... and smile inside, becuase you got one step closer to your goal, whatever that may be (more knowledge, real life experience, a nice addition to your portfolio, etc...).

Don't be bringing a knife to a gun fight... lol.


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## notelliot (May 28, 2008)

y'know what happens to people that carry a knife? they get shot. lol.

i'd definitely consider it, but even when shooting with friends (GOOD friends) i get frustrated. not because they ask what bokeh is or how to freeze action in the dark, but because i have to break my focus. my creativity starts slow, but once i get into it, there's no going back.

i usually work best by myself, and being as young n' dumb as i am, i definitely wouldn't want to be held responsible for causing someone else to make mistakes


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## JerryPH (May 28, 2008)

notelliot said:


> i definitely wouldn't want to be held responsible for causing someone else to make mistakes


 
I understand you completely... but I really like taking responsability for my own mistakes, because they are the best teacher for me.

No one was born perfect, we all had to climb that hill one step at a time, but once you start getting close and can see the peak, man, it sure feels good!

Oh... and I never carry a knife... lol.


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## Battou (May 28, 2008)

notelliot said:


> y'know what happens to people that carry a knife? they get shot. lol.



As a swordsman, I take offence to that.


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## notelliot (May 28, 2008)

Battou said:


> As a swordsman, I take offence to that.


charge with your sword at a guy with a shotgun. we'll have to ask the guy with the shotgun what happened.


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## Battou (May 28, 2008)

notelliot said:


> charge with your sword at a guy with a shotgun. we'll have to ask the guy with the shotgun what happened.



I have...and lived to tell about with out any extra orfaces...but that is off topic


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## notelliot (May 28, 2008)




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## Edward Crim (May 28, 2008)

If you lived in St. Louis, dressed nicely, and abided by my rules (though you are kinda young). 
Keep at it Valerie, keep asking until you find someone nicer than the person who dismissed you with such a tirade. Call on photographers - be neat, professional and persistent, read all you can about photography (the library is a good place; books are easier on the eyes than a computer screen), look at different photographers' styles, take lots of pictures, subsist on ramen noodles for the next 5 years or so (so you can invest your money in photography), and don't give up. The field of photography, just like every other field, needs new talent. Good luck!

Sincerely,


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## notelliot (May 28, 2008)

Edward Crim said:


> subsist on ramen noodles for the next 5 years or so (so you can invest your money in photography)...



+1

i'm actually eating a bowl of ramen noodles RIGHT now haha


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## chrisburke (May 29, 2008)

i haven't read through this forum... I have no idea what other people have said, so I may just e repeating others.. or not... I'm going to liken this topic to music... simply because music is something I know a lot about.  I'm 23 years old... I've been studying music since i was 3.... I know almost everything there is theory wise about music... I am accomplished in 13 different instruments, and I play them all fluently.  I play in bands, I've released 4 CD's, I've been on TV (because of music) I've been on radios, I've played THOUSANDS of shows, I've opened for some big names, and I've been the big name who was opened for... I am a musician.  What makes me a musician? is it the fact that I have studied for 20 years? is it the fact that I have CD's... is it the fact that I am paid to play music? NO I am a musician simply because I play music... does it make me more of a musician than my friend who started playing guitar last year, NO.. it does make me a BETTER musician, but he is still a musician....

I take pictures... I happen to make money at it.. I've had photos published, I've had photography gigs... I am a photographer... does it make me more of a photographer than the guy who started taking pictures last week... NO, it just makes me better (I would hope) the dictionary defines photographer as a person who takes photos, therefore, YES everyone with a camera is a photographer... HOWEVER there are professional photographers, and hobby photographers... where you fit is up to you, and when you cross over to the other side is up to you, not some dick on a forum who says "all you people with dslrs think your photographers"


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## mrodgers (May 29, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> i haven't read through this forum... I have no idea what other people have said, so I may just e repeating others.. or not... I'm going to liken this topic to music...
> 
> <snipped to shorten it>


Ok, I have a guitar.  I've had it for several years now.  I started out on the internet at forums and lesson sites.  I began with interest with online free lesson sites, but soon lost interest since it is a very cheap guitar and very difficult to play (talking VERY high action on the strings, it's a VERY cheap guitar).  I do still pick up that guitar now and then because I have been able to do stuff such as play Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here.  I also have some intros to some songs that I learned from tab and would like to learn further.

I have the guitar.  But I probably haven't picked it up for 2 years.  I can't play anything except for what I stated above, some intro stuff that I haven't even learned the entire intros.  Does that make me a musician?  The fact that I may know one or 2 scales and a few notes to the intro for a few songs?

Me with my guitar calling myself a musician is the same as some "soccer mom" with a camera taking snapshots being called a photographer.  I am certainly not a musician just because I have a guitar and sometimes strum a pick across it.  As is, the soccer mom is certainly not a photographer because she has a camera and is taking snapshots of her son playing soccer.

Chrisburke, the analogy you have expressed is absolutely correct as you've stated it.  Your friend who shows the interest in playing a musical instrument and is learning it is every bit of a musician as you are.  It is because he is actively pursuing the learning process, or has some knowledge and is actually using that knowledge.  I am not pursuing learning the guitar, nor do I have any knowledge.  I just pick it up now and then and mess around with it without knowing anything about it.  The spread between your friend and you is correct in that you are both musicians.  But when you spread it further apart to include me because I have a guitar and pick it up now and then to mess around, the statement becomes false.  I am not a musician just because I own a guitar.  Just as the soccer mom is not a photographer just because she shoots snapshots of her son playing soccer.


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## abraxas (May 29, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> Ok, I have a guitar.
> 
> ... the same as some "soccer mom"
> 
> ...



Not too far ot, but does a soccer mom have to either have a kid playing soccer, or be a mom and play soccer herself to be a soccer mom?


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## mrodgers (May 29, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Not too far ot, but does a soccer mom have to either have a kid playing soccer, or be a mom and play soccer herself to be a soccer mom?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom

_"In North American social, cultural and political discourse, *soccer mom* broadly refers to a middle or upper-middle class woman who spends a significant amount of her time transporting her school-age children to activities *such as* soccer practice."_

My appoligies.  I shouldn't have specifically stated that she was snapshooting her son playing soccer, but should have stated "doing activities _such as_ playing soccer....


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## abraxas (May 29, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom
> 
> _"In North American social, cultural and political discourse, *soccer mom* broadly refers to a middle or upper-middle class woman who spends a significant amount of her time transporting her school-age children to activities *such as* soccer practice."_
> 
> My appoligies.  I shouldn't have specifically stated that she was snapshooting her son playing soccer, but should have stated "doing activities _such as_ playing soccer....



So, if she has nothing to do with playing soccer and neither does the kid, but the kid takes photos, and she drops the little creep off at the zoo, she's still a soccer mom and not a photographer mom?


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## someguy5 (May 29, 2008)

soccer mom is just a term.  All she needs is a minivan and she's a soccer mom, even if her kid plays baseball.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Well Luna, did you ever think that your thread would end up being a discussion on soccer moms?

As someone else stated on another thread over the same topic... photographers create a photograph using a camera rather than just taking a picture.  Just as musicians create music rather than just playing a guitar.


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## Stillsky (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Well Luna, did you ever think that your thread would end up being a discussion on soccer moms?
> 
> As someone else stated on another thread over the same topic... photographers create a photograph using a camera rather than just taking a picture. Just as musicians create music rather than just playing a guitar.


 
Not all musicians create music though.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Yeah, yeah, I know...you get the idea though...


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## Stillsky (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Yeah, yeah, I know...you get the idea though...


 
I do, but I disagree.

Like Chris, I've been involved in music since a very young age and worked professionally in the field for a number of years. I'd have no qualms with someone calling themselves a musician or an instrumentalist if they leisurely played their axe once every couple of months just to throw down some riffs. That might be because I don't have any delusional beliefs about the label and try to talk it up as if it should only be reserved to those who actively pursue mastery over their instrument.


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

Battou said:


> I have...and lived to tell about with out any extra orfaces...but that is off topic


 
As an avid martial artist of 25+ years, and having seen some of the best swordsmen in the world (Hiroshi Takanami for example, and I attended a seminar with Duk Ku Kau Pai in 1984), I would say that anyone that thinks their sword is more deadly than a firearm needs a reality check.  I've not seen a Katana slice through an engine block lately from 30 paces... but a 9mm does it quite easily, and with near no kick.

I've not seen a sword be able to damage like a rifle can a 1/4 mile away... most marines start sniper training at 100 feet and can pit the center of the ace at 1000 feet moving 35 MPH.

You say you survived against one... you got lucky.  Please, let's not let ego get in the way of reality.


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## abraxas (May 29, 2008)

someguy5 said:


> soccer mom is just a term.  All she needs is a minivan and she's a soccer mom, even if her kid plays baseball.



Ok, so I'm thinking, by primarily the same logic all a photographer needs to be a photographer is a camera and to have taken at least one photo.  It's just a term.


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

It is just a term, a word.  It has no more meaning than you want to give it.  Some bring that word to a new level and others bring that word to a new low.

I prefer to enjoy it for what it does for me and to heck with the labels.


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## abraxas (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> It is just a term, a word.  It has no more meaning than you want to give it.  Some bring that word to a new level and others bring that word to a new low.
> 
> I prefer to enjoy it for what it does for me and to heck with the labels.



Agreed, I guess. Well, on to other challenges, like MILF. Goggling it now,... Ah here it is,... ... ... :shock:


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## JerryPH (May 29, 2008)

Cool, I heard MILK does a body good!    :lmao:


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## Overread (May 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> As an avid martial artist of 25+ years, and having seen some of the best swordsmen in the world (Hiroshi Takanami for example, and I attended a seminar with Duk Ku Kau Pai in 1984), I would say that anyone that thinks their sword is more deadly than a firearm needs a reality check. I've not seen a Katana slice through an engine block lately from 30 paces... but a 9mm does it quite easily, and with near no kick.
> 
> I've not seen a sword be able to damage like a rifle can a 1/4 mile away... most marines start sniper training at 100 feet and can pit the center of the ace at 1000 feet moving 35 MPH.
> 
> You say you survived against one... you got lucky. Please, let's not let ego get in the way of reality.


 
You say guns
He says swords
Well you can keep your guns - and he can keep his swords 
I will use a Gunblade - best of both worlds


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Stillsky said:


> I do, but I disagree.
> 
> Like Chris, I've been involved in music since a very young age and worked professionally in the field for a number of years. I'd have no qualms with someone calling themselves a musician or an instrumentalist if they leisurely played their axe once every couple of months just to throw down some riffs. That might be because I don't have any delusional beliefs about the label and try to talk it up as if it should only be reserved to those who actively pursue mastery over their instrument.


 
Yes, and I have played guitar for 28 years.

What I am saying though is a musician creates music (as in a nice sound, not necessarily writing) rather than just plucking at some strings or banging on a drum.  A photographer creates a photo rather than just pressing a shutter.  I think a little bit of passion for it is required too.  Why would you call yourself a musician if you only played once every few months, or a photographer if you only got your camera out a few times a year.


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Overread said:


> You say guns
> He says swords
> Well you can keep your guns - and he can keep his swords
> I will use a Gunblade - best of both worlds


 
Gotta love Final Fantasy!


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## Stillsky (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Yes, and I have played guitar for 28 years.
> 
> What I am saying though is a musician creates music (as in a nice sound, not necessarily writing) rather than just plucking at some strings or banging on a drum. A photographer creates a photo rather than just pressing a shutter. I think a little bit of passion for it is required too. Why would you call yourself a musician if you only played once every few months, or a photographer if you only got your camera out a few times a year.


 
In its most basic form, a musician is someone who performs music, just as a photographer is someone performs the act of capturing light onto film or sensor. No more, no less. Why the need to make these labels out to be bigger than they are? Why does it really matter?


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## epatsellis (May 29, 2008)

Senor Hound said:


> It is true to an extent.  With art, there's no way to standardize the industry.  To know accounting, you become a CPA (that's what they call it in the US, at least).  To be a doctor, you become an MD, to become a photographer, you buy a camera and do whatever you want...<snip>




But there are qualifications, the PPA has several levels, there's a fine arts degree to show an ability to learn and express creative concepts. Most of the really creative students I've met have total crap for equipment, I mean total crap. and guess who makes some of the most stunning images? (hint, not usually the kid with >20K worth of equipment, all brand new)

I'm finding myself going back to school after a kinda long year off (started in 1981, hasn't ended yet...) soon. Not to learn much, but to quantify my knowledge and put it on paper, as apparently a 45 year old photographer with a killer portfolio and past client list can't get a f'n job without at least a BFA these days....Grrr..




erie


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

Honestly, it doesn't matter, there are more important things in life... *BUT* for some reason this topic keeps coming up, and it just bugs me when people are discouraging new photographers by saying "you are not truly a photographer", what is the point of that?


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## Overread (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Honestly, it doesn't matter, there are more important things in life... *BUT* for some reason this topic keeps coming up, and it just bugs me when people are discouraging new photographers by saying "you are not truly a photographer", what is the point of that?


 
elitism
fear of competition
jealousy with richer people (those can can get the best kit first time around)
annoyance at having more "newb" posts that are repeats on site
annoyance at having to answer the same questions over and over

well those are some reasons - and its not really much to worry about


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## ir0n_ma1den (May 29, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> i haven't read through this forum... I have no idea what other people have said, so I may just e repeating others.. or not... I'm going to liken this topic to music... simply because music is something I know a lot about.  I'm 23 years old... I've been studying music since i was 3.... I know almost everything there is theory wise about music... I am accomplished in 13 different instruments, and I play them all fluently.  I play in bands, I've released 4 CD's, I've been on TV (because of music) I've been on radios, I've played THOUSANDS of shows, I've opened for some big names, and I've been the big name who was opened for... I am a musician.  What makes me a musician? is it the fact that I have studied for 20 years? is it the fact that I have CD's... is it the fact that I am paid to play music? NO I am a musician simply because I play music... does it make me more of a musician than my friend who started playing guitar last year, NO.. it does make me a BETTER musician, but he is still a musician....



Seriously? 

If so, thats awesome! I am taking AP music theory next year hoping to learn alot about music... theory to me is really interesting...

Back on topic:

Its hard to say who is a photographer and who isn't because different people have different ideas on what a photographer is. An average person may call someone a photographer if they have a DSLR, while a 'pro' (the term pro is also hard to describe) might only call Ansel Adams a photographer. Its really opinion...


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## dpolston (May 29, 2008)

Rick Waldroup said:


> ... I don't blame her at all for the response she gave you.



Rick, I love your work and I think you are a hell of a photographer. I soOOOoo absolutely see where you're coming from, but I think you were having a bad day when you wrote this (I hope). 

I do agree on protecting the image and some of her style but I do think her response was uncalled for. You can politely shoot down someones interest in shadowing you but I don't think you need to berate them for asking. 

As to the response I would have given: I would have asked her how she came to be in the profession. She at some point in her life had to shoot her first wedding and take her first "pro" session. I would venture to believe that she (as did most of us "pros")  shadowed, paid for, stole, failed by and succeeded in practice on her own and I am sure without a doubt in my mind, that she herself asked another "pro" before her "Hey, how'd you  do that?"

I think she "the photographer" is bitter person that forgot her background and probably isn't a good mentor in the first place.

One mans opinion.

David

Rick... love your work and we've followed each other around enough in these forums to know that I don't mean this to be combative. We have got to shoot with each other!   =o)


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## dpolston (May 29, 2008)

When I responded to this post I left the forum to grab a shower and I felt like I had an incomplete post. I thought I should add something:

I am a part time pro in that I do subsidize my living with my camera and I do have a few ongoing contracts. I can't yet go pro full time but I am working on a deal within my company that will be very exciting and is a full time pro position. 

So... with that said, I too get very, very irritated in that a greater number of people that are buying and using cameras are calling themselves   "photographers". I do personally believe that the market is becoming more saturated with people passing off everything that shoot as "art", and yes I do know that "art" is subjective to those that view/sell/buy it. Not that I begrudge them for it, I personally think that they [the artist/photographer] should portray themselves in the appropriate light. 

I will also add to the bad examples to represent my views:

I have never shot with a bow and arrow. Chances are that with these two tools and a few yards distance, I probably could hit the broad side of a barn. I am however not truthful to myself or anyone else by claiming to be an archer.

I do commend the OP in her gumption. GO FOR IT!!! If you lived near me, I'd let you shadow me.

This post was a blanket "soap box" statement and isn't directed to anyone in particular.

David


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## caspertodd (May 29, 2008)

dpolston said:


> I have never shot with a bow and arrow. Chances are that with these two tools and a few yards distance, I probably could hit the broad side of a barn. I am however not truthful to myself or anyone else by claiming to be an archer.


 
If you bought a bow and arrow, LOVED shooting it, read many books on it and leanred the technical aspect of it, spent your day thinking about it, shot decent enough to hit the narrow side of the barn, then I would call you an archer.  Because you have a passion for it, and spend time trying to improve it.  If you really sucked at it I would call you an amateur archer, if you were really good I would call you a professional archer.

There is no way everyone here will agree to have the same opinion.  At least I have a dictionary to back up my opinion


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## dangergoinoff (May 29, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> There is no way everyone here will agree to have the same opinion. *At least I have a dictionary to back up my opinion*


 
That is so true.
Everyone can go on and on and on(as seen by some of the posts in here) as to what "their" definition of the word photographer is but unless you are hoping to write a dictionary that will be regarded as the new standard for word definition i don't really care what your opinion is about your definition.
We all use English on here, some better than others, and as such we are all bound by the Dictionary of English in terms of defining meaning of words in this language.

Maybe the original poster should have responded to the email she recieved with; "Well as the definition of the word photographer is a person who takes photographs then technically anyone with a camera who uses it is a photogrpaher. I hope that your photography skills are better than your understanding of the English language. Good day."


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## Rick Waldroup (May 29, 2008)

dpolston said:


> Rick, I love your work and I think you are a hell of a photographer. I soOOOoo absolutely see where you're coming from, but I think you were having a bad day when you wrote this (I hope).
> 
> I do agree on protecting the image and some of her style but I do think her response was uncalled for. You can politely shoot down someones interest in shadowing you but I don't think you need to berate them for asking.
> 
> ...


 
David, where the hell have you been?  I have not seen you on here in a long time.

Yes, old age is catching up with me.  I am now officially an old, pissed off fart.  Or, as I was called on another thread- I am an ass and a putz.  I like that.  Makes me realize I am still breathing.

I want to make an apology to anyone I may have offended.

Thanks David, for the very kind words about my work.

How is the project about the churches coming along?  The stuff I saw was excellent.  Talk to you later, my friend.


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## chrisburke (May 30, 2008)

to say a musician is someone who creates nice music is ludacris... there are plenty of musicians out there who create music that makes me want to pull my eyes out....  you've brought up an interesting point mr rodgers....  and I would say NO, your not a musician simply if you have a guitar and don't use it.. just like I'd say your not a photographer if you have a camera and don't use it..... however, most people do use cameras when they have them.. and most people use them more than once every 2 years... remember, I'm not speaking in pro and amature... i'm simply using the english dictionary which states that a photographer is "someone who takes photographs"


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## Iron Flatline (May 30, 2008)

Wow chrisburke, what a signature file!

You know, in your Profile there's a section where your can list your camera gear.


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## chrisburke (May 30, 2008)

Iron Flatline said:


> Wow chrisburke, what a signature file!
> 
> You know, in your Profile there's a section where your can list your camera gear.



no i didnt... i'll check it out though


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## GeorgiaOwl (May 30, 2008)

I wonder if it makes Tom Glavine angry that high school kids that throw baseballs at batters call themselves pitchers? 

Or if Bill Dance gets all wound up because people call themselves fishermen? 

I think the answer to this difference of opinion is simple: 

All _really, really, really_ _*professional*_ photographers should be forced, legally to call themselves by the appropriate title. 

"_John Doe Photography_" would legally have to be called "_John Doe *Professional* Photography."_

That way, you pro's and semi-pro folks - and wanna-be pro's - can worry more about your photography businesses and less about people that have the nerve to call themselves photographers just because they take photographs! 

After all, you'll then have that _special_ title of "*professional*" in front of your name and that way you won't forget you're better than all the people who are just snapshooters_! _I know, it's an awesome idea....no thanks needed, just send money. (_I need it to go out and have some business cards made with Owl's Professional Photography on them!_  )

See, problem solved!


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## dEARlEADER (May 30, 2008)

GeorgiaOwl said:


> I wonder if it makes Tom Glavine angry that high school kids that throw baseballs at batters call themselves pitchers?
> 
> Or if Bill Dance gets all wound up because people call themselves fishermen?
> 
> ...



Good idea but.... do you really need to be a "professional' to be a professional photographer???

It's mostly the camera that takes the great pictures not the person behind it....

I often tape down the shutter release on my D60 and pitch it straight up in the air.... the result? 20 or 30 perfectly composed shots with excellent exposure every time.....

It's the camera that should be getting paid.... not the dummy behind it...


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## GeorgiaOwl (May 30, 2008)

Sarcastic comments by a noob(me) - free
Getting the professionals riled up - free
Bewildering people that don't get sarcasm - free
Getting a sarcastic reply from someone who doesn't get my sarcasm but uses it themselves - *priceless*! 


Reminds me of an episode of Foster's Home where Bloo insists he's not sarcastic by saying something along the lines of " Yeah, and I'm the Queen of England" or some such.  


Lighten up people. Life's too short.


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## dEARlEADER (May 30, 2008)

GeorgiaOwl said:


> Sarcastic comments by a noob(me) - free
> Getting the professionals riled up - free
> Bewildering people that don't get sarcasm - free
> Getting a sarcastic reply from someone who doesn't get my sarcasm but uses it themselves - *priceless*!
> ...




psst.... here's a little secret........ I got your sarcasm....


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## mjermano (Feb 26, 2012)

I am also sure Tiger Woods does not give away lessons, training, etc. to competitors for free.




D-50 said:


> From everything I have experinced, heard and read it appears established pros are very nervous right now.   Typical responses are "the industry is flooded right now so dont attempt to get into it" or "its a dying industry I would look for a different career" These statements are absurd and appear to be more of a pro not wanting competition than a pro really caring about my well being in life.  If an amerature posses that much of a threatl then maybe your skills as a professional are not that great. If I can produce the same images you create with 1/5 the equiptment cost are my images not as good.  To me many pros are elitists and if you didn't study photography in school and work under many people than your work is worth nothing.
> 
> I dont think Tiger woods is telling anyone "you sould not even take up golf its already too cmpetative and all you're gong to do is huirt me because you undercut my prices"  If you're a pro than act like it and take photos that I cannot. If you cant than I guess either I am a pro as well or you are just an amerature.


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## mjermano (Feb 26, 2012)

I totally agree with your response to the poster. And I am confounded by the number of beginner photographers that want/ask/or expect to "shadow" professionals for free (or as an apprentice as-  if they are doing us a favor). My advice to all want to be professional photographers is to approach professionals as professionals and expect to pay for their advice and time (if they are so inclined to give it).


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## EIngerson (Feb 26, 2012)

Pssssst, you're replying to a post from 2008.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 26, 2012)

mjermano said:


> I totally agree with your response to the poster. And I am confounded by the number of beginner photographers that want/ask/or expect to "shadow" professionals for free (or as an apprentice as-  if they are doing us a favor). My advice to all want to be professional photographers is to approach professionals as professionals and expect to pay for their advice and time (if they are so inclined to give it).



I am confounded about how new people respond to thread that has been dead for four years!  lol!


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## mishele (Feb 26, 2012)

We tell people to use the search engine.......lol


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## dxqcanada (Feb 26, 2012)

So the sequence is:

Noob observes the forum
See's comments from members to Google/Search
Noob searches and finds post
Noob posts reply

Though I wonder how/why they find/search such old threads ?


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## cgipson1 (Feb 26, 2012)

mishele said:


> We tell people to use the search engine.......lol



True.. but the date is relatively obvious!  But I am glad you posted in this thread! It gives me a chance to give you a virtual Flower!


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