# CC ethics



## ndancona (Jul 20, 2015)

I was recently sent an angry private message on facebook telling me not to comment on his images.

I was invited to "Like" this guy's photography page and one of his images caught my eye.  It was a BW portrait of a semi nude girl.  It was side lit with one off camera speed light.  However, he had a bit of light spillage in the background and the image did not have a clean dark background which is what I believe he was trying to achieve.  There was a reflection off a wall or background object that left a visible horizontal line going across the image and intersecting the models head.  

I commented on the image complementing him and mentioning that I thought this particular image was the strongest of the set.  Since he is a beginner photographer I thought I would offer some support and point out what I mentioned above, since it's an easy fix.

A few moments later my comment was removed and I got an angry PM saying not to offer CC if it is not asked for and that he would never ask for CC on an open page.

So it got me thinking to what exactly are the ethics of CC?   Why invite me to Like your page if you don't want me to say anything?

What are your thoughts....


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## goooner (Jul 20, 2015)

IMO life's too short to bother tbh. I'm not on facebook, but if I get C&C on here I tend to take it in stride. I can understand if you are a professional and your clients are also looking at your work. If they (your clients) see negative C&C it might sow seeds of doubt, but then it is the photogs fault for posting these images on an open forum.


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## SCraig (Jul 20, 2015)

Many people only want praise, not critique.  They see nothing wrong with their photographs and are unwilling to admit that others might see flaws.


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## Bryston3bsst (Jul 20, 2015)

SCraig said:


> Many *people only want praise*, not critique.  They see nothing wrong with their photographs and are unwilling to admit that others might see flaws.



I think it's safe to say _all _people want praise. But then again not every one of the pictures we shoot  are worthy of praise. There are many here that are just starting out and truly want to know what they can do to improve their pictures. There are those too that feel obligated to offer _only _criticism probably because it makes them feel superior, who knows. Then there are the situations where the comments stem from personal taste, a little lighter, little darker, crop this, remove that......and for a beginner, I think that just adds to their confusion. Those comments aren't necessarily made with regard to improving the image so much as to improve the image to _the preferences of the commenter._ Which, of course, are useless for technical improvement.

Something else lacking in many 'critiques' that is very important is common courtesy. But that's probably another discussion.


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## TomOScott (Jul 20, 2015)

I never critique a photo unless the photographer is specifically asking for it. I learned the hard way, as apparently the OP has.


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## mmaria (Jul 20, 2015)

I’ve started my photography page on fb recently. I haven't used fb privately for a few years now but I decided to present my photos there also...

If I got the comment like that I would immediately take down the photo, fix what's there to be fixed and upload it again sending you the following message: "Thank you for noticing that I made a mistake... would you please be kind if you see something is wrong with the photo in the future, would you send me a pm, I would be very grateful to you. Thanks again"

idk.. people are very sensitive and I don't understand why..

but.. I would post on facebook only photos that I'm sure are just the way I want them to be. If I got cc and someone doesn't like my photo I would politely respond something like this "I understand you don't like it but I do... and thank you for taking the time to comment"

but also... I wouldn't post c&c on a fb page.. or anywhere where isn't specificaly said that the photographer wants c&c.


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## tirediron (Jul 20, 2015)

Many people, especially beginners (in any field) don't know what they don't know, and if they get a bunch of "Mom compliments" from friends & family who know even less, they can begin to feel that they're more skilled than they really are, and wen the bubble's popped, it hurts.  Personally, I would always rather have someone point out an issue, or make a suggestion for improvement in my work.  I don't have to accept it, or even agree with it, but I always appreciate the fact that people are looking at my work.

As for offering unsolicited C&C, I'm not a facebookian, so the OPs scenario  isn't a likely one for me, but I will try and offer, polite, positive suggestions for improvement when I see there's a need for it.


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## waday (Jul 20, 2015)

Because the photographer wasn't asking for C&C, you could have sent him a private message with the critique rather than posting it in the public eye. A little courtesy goes a long way.


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## Gary A. (Jul 20, 2015)

SCraig said:


> Many people only want praise, not critique.  They see nothing wrong with their photographs and are unwilling to admit that others might see flaws.


I am one of those people.


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## ronlane (Jul 20, 2015)

waday said:


> Because the photographer wasn't asking for C&C, you could have sent him a private message with the critique rather than posting it in the public eye. A little courtesy goes a long way.



But this is the interweb, where it's just easier to slam people as apposed to being nice.


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## Bryston3bsst (Jul 20, 2015)

ronlane said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > Because the photographer wasn't asking for C&C, you could have sent him a private message with the critique rather than posting it in the public eye. A little courtesy goes a long way.
> ...



And while the whole world is watching. And, apparently, it's more enjoyable for the slammer than being a decent human being.



tirediron said:


> Many people, especially beginners (in any field) don't know what they don't know, and if* they get a bunch of "Mom compliments" from friends & family who know even less, they can begin to feel that they're more skilled than they really are*, and wen the bubble's popped, it hurts.  Personally, I would always rather have someone point out an issue, or make a suggestion for improvement in my work.  I don't have to accept it, or even agree with it, but I always appreciate the fact that people are looking at my work.



 This so true. Friends and family _always _fawn over your work which, as you mention, can be very misleading.


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## Dave442 (Jul 20, 2015)

I think critiquing a photo on social media is something like calling out to all the shoppers in the food market so you can yell out that you like the bananas, but there is one that is overripe.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 20, 2015)

I hate when people critique photos on my social media pages- even if they offer something helpful that I could use. I belong to a group on FB with a small (25-30) group of talented landscape photographers, specifically for critique. Even though critique can hurt, I regularly post images there before putting out the final version on my business page, and they've pointed out stuff that I had missed that really helped create a stronger final photo. Here, I appreciate critique. 

Everybody has different reasons for creating social media accounts for their photography, but as somebody trying to run a business I feel like it's rude and self serving for somebody to publicly post critique on one of my photos. I have had people privately message me and offer helpful (and sometimes not) critique and that's always appreciated though.


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## otherprof (Jul 20, 2015)

ndancona said:


> I was recently sent an angry private message on facebook telling me not to comment on his images.
> 
> I was invited to "Like" this guy's photography page and one of his images caught my eye.  It was a BW portrait of a semi nude girl.  It was side lit with one off camera speed light.  However, he had a bit of light spillage in the background and the image did not have a clean dark background which is what I believe he was trying to achieve.  There was a reflection off a wall or background object that left a visible horizontal line going across the image and intersecting the models head.
> 
> ...


"Lord how much clearer I can see without my pride."  From the Bobby Bare song, "I can almost see Houston from here." Some people you can't help. Doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying with other people. There are two types of criticism - the type that means to tear someone down, and the type that is meant to make them stronger. Some people can't tell the difference.


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## Derrel (Jul 20, 2015)

My experience is that rank beginners and novices often appreciate being given suggestions, tips, and helpful C&C. The people who know the least and who need the most help are the people who almost always appreciate helpful suggestions and insight from others. My experience also shows that once these same people get a few years of experience, they often move to the category of, "Don't say *anything *bad about my pictures--I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING, so kindly STFU, and praise my skills!"


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## Bryston3bsst (Jul 20, 2015)

[QUOTE="Derrel, post: 3507078, member: 44194"My experience also shows that once these same people get a few years of experience, they often move to *the category of, "Don't say anything bad about my pictures--I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING, so kindly STFU, and praise my skills!*"[/QUOTE]

Hey......I know people like that!

In fact, _LOTS_ of them.


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## Designer (Jul 20, 2015)

ndancona said:


> What are your thoughts....


If he didn't specifically ask for C&C, then don't offer it.  

Some people just aren't interested in what other people think about their artwork.  

Also; you shouldn't confuse a "like" on FB with educated criticism.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 20, 2015)

If photos are posted in a place that's publicly viewable I don't think it's likely you can control what others may say or do regarding your photos (or control what the website does or allows with your photos once you've agreed to their Terms).  

So if the guy didn't want any comments he probably shouldn't have posted his pictures there and invited people to view them. If your comment was tactful and done in a friendly, helpful way but still wasn't appreciated then it might be best to unfollow/unfriend him and be done with it.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 20, 2015)

vintagesnaps said:


> If photos are posted in a place that's publicly viewable I don't think it's likely you can control what others may say or do regarding your photos (or control what the website does or allows with your photos once you've agreed to their Terms).
> 
> So if the guy didn't want any comments he probably shouldn't have posted his pictures there and invited people to view them. If your comment was tactful and done in a friendly, helpful way but still wasn't appreciated then it might be best to unfollow/unfriend him and be done with it.



Sounds like the same logic as "if you don't want your photos stolen, then don't post them online!" to me


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 20, 2015)

Well, I don't think you can make them publicly available and expect that no one will comment or critique or use them. Especially if the site allows unlimited, perpetual use and sublicensing, etc. etc. It doesn't seem to serve much purpose to post them indiscriminately instead of in a way that markets your photos for a specific reason or shows them to a specific audience.


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## sm4him (Jul 20, 2015)

For me, C&C on FB *is* a little different than in other places, like TPF for instance.
It kinda depends on WHERE on FB, but generally speaking, if it is a FB page for a specific person's photography, I would NOT offer C&C unless information on the page specifically invited such comments.  If I felt strongly that the person might need/want some guidance on a particular shot they had posted, I would send them a private message, not post it on the wall. 

Why would I NOT give C&C on a personal photography page? Because, for MOST photographers, their FB page is in essence their "public gallery." It seems a little bit like walking into someone's studio, with a few dozen other people mingling around looking at the art/photography on the walls, and saying, "Hey, Dude! These are nice, but this one right here? You're doing that wrong."
OTOH, sending a private message is the public gallery equivalent of waiting until other patrons are not around, and then having a private conversation with the person about your insights for improving a photo.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 20, 2015)

Well that would be an appropriate way to approach it, Sharon - because you're a nice and decent person who can behave in a sane and sensible way!

I just think if photos are made public you can't assume that everyone's going to approach it in a positive way. It could be hard to know how they'd respond to critique. In this situation, apparently not all that well.


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## sm4him (Jul 20, 2015)

vintagesnaps said:


> Well that would be an appropriate way to approach it, Sharon - because you're a nice and decent person who can behave in a sane and sensible way!
> 
> I just think if photos are made public you can't assume that everyone's going to approach it in a positive way. It could be hard to know how they'd respond to critique. In this situation, apparently not all that well.



I agree. If you post photos online, you absolutely can't assume everyone will play nice.  And I definitely think the guy should not have reacted the way he did. No sense getting your britches in a snit about stuff like that.

However, the specific question that the OP is asking is:


ndancona said:


> So it got me thinking to what exactly are the ethics of CC? Why invite me to Like your page if you don't want me to say anything?



And that was why I responded as I did. Asking someone to "like" your FB page is like asking them to come by your gallery--well, really it's like asking them to come by a few times a week, every time you put up new stuff.
And "ethically," I just don't think it would be appropriate to post C&C on someone's FB page, any more than it would be to make a public comment in their crowded gallery.
But that doesn't mean everyone will PLAY by those rules. That's a whole separate issue!


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## JacaRanda (Jul 20, 2015)

Lesson learned.  "Avoid Facebook" nicely.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 20, 2015)

sm4him said:


> For me, C&C on FB *is* a little different than in other places, like TPF for instance.
> It kinda depends on WHERE on FB, but generally speaking, if it is a FB page for a specific person's photography, I would NOT offer C&C unless information on the page specifically invited such comments.  If I felt strongly that the person might need/want some guidance on a particular shot they had posted, I would send them a private message, not post it on the wall.
> 
> Why would I NOT give C&C on a personal photography page? Because, for MOST photographers, their FB page is in essence their "public gallery." It seems a little bit like walking into someone's studio, with a few dozen other people mingling around looking at the art/photography on the walls, and saying, "Hey, Dude! These are nice, but this one right here? You're doing that wrong."
> OTOH, sending a private message is the public gallery equivalent of waiting until other patrons are not around, and then having a private conversation with the person about your insights for improving a photo.



This. 




vintagesnaps said:


> Especially if the site allows unlimited, perpetual use and sublicensing, etc. etc.



which sites (actually) do this?


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## snowbear (Jul 20, 2015)

I usually don't C&C anything on FB.



Bryston3bsst said:


> This so true. Friends and family _always _fawn over your work . . .


No, not _always_.  Since my son and my niece are a bit more serious about photography that the rest of the family, I have never given either one anything less than honest opinions.  Now the cell-phone-selfie crowd -- that's another story.


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## table1349 (Jul 20, 2015)

Which is why I don't facebook!!!


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## Bryston3bsst (Jul 20, 2015)

snowbear said:


> I usually don't C&C anything on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good on you, Charlie.


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## TCampbell (Jul 20, 2015)

I find that most "serious" photographers (whether pro or even amateurs at an advanced level of skill) are probably NOT posting their gallery pages on Facebook.  I technically have a FB account... because annoyingly people ask me to look at something on FB and you can't even look unless you have an account.  So I made an account that I mostly never use (perhaps once very few months I log in.)  

Most serious photographers probably either have their own gallery/studio page, or they use a service such as 500px... or even Flickr.

I'm only reading your perspective on the story.  My own opinion is that if someone ASKS for comments or feedback then they'd better not melt if the feedback isn't 100% praise.  I typically try to find both constructively positive and negative elements when leaving a comment because if it's only negative it tends to discourage and I don't want to discourage anyone.  

If a person posts an image and they did not ask for any comments, then I tend not to give any (and then you always get the user who asks why nobody comments.)

For a lot of reasons, I dislike Facebook and especially dislike it for photography.  Google+ has a MUCH MUCH stronger photography community.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 20, 2015)

TCampbell said:


> I find that most "serious" photographers (whether pro or even amateurs at an advanced level of skill) are probably NOT posting their gallery pages on Facebook.  I technically have a FB account... because annoyingly people ask me to look at something on FB and you can't even look unless you have an account.  So I made an account that I mostly never use (perhaps once very few months I log in.)
> 
> Most serious photographers probably either have their own gallery/studio page, or they use a service such as 500px... or even Flickr.
> 
> ...



Really? Basically every pro photographer I know has a FB page. I know of only one or two who don't use FB. And the problem I see with G+ is that it's all other photographers- not potential customers. It sucks because FB can really kill the quality with its compression for certain images, but I've had tons of sales through it, and 0 through G+


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## TomOScott (Jul 20, 2015)

I have my own website, but I also use FB and Instagram. I use them exclusively to display work that's on my website. Amazingly enough, I've actually sold quite a few images to people on FB.


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## TCampbell (Jul 20, 2015)

Maybe I don't browse around enough on FB to see many examples.   The examples that I see tend to be somewhat poor quality (and I know part of the problem is that FB seems to reduce the quality of images you submit.)  

The photography "community" is much stronger on Google+... but if you were to hang on G+ looking for customers, FB probably has more.  I'm not entirely certain how good FB is at reaching customers given how they are about advertising.  If you have anything other than a personal page, they block your posts from showing up in any feeds (even if those users "like" you) unless you pay to advertise (there is a way a follower can configure their preferences to tell FB they want to see every post you make but this requires that they know how to do that and most people don't know how to do that.)  I only learned this because I work with a non-profit that does community events and people "follow" us and still don't know when we have an event because of this.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 20, 2015)

TCampbell said:


> Maybe I don't browse around enough on FB to see many examples.   The examples that I see tend to be somewhat poor quality (and I know part of the problem is that FB seems to reduce the quality of images you submit.)
> 
> The photography "community" is much stronger on Google+... but if you were to hang on G+ looking for customers, FB probably has more.  I'm not entirely certain how good FB is at reaching customers given how they are about advertising.  If you have anything other than a personal page, they block your posts from showing up in any feeds (even if those users "like" you) unless you pay to advertise (there is a way a follower can configure their preferences to tell FB they want to see every post you make but this requires that they know how to do that and most people don't know how to do that.)  I only learned this because I work with a non-profit that does community events and people "follow" us and still don't know when we have an event because of this.



Yeah, the way FB limits post reach is ridiculous. Using certain words in your post, adding an image with a lot of text, posting too often are all things that their algorithm factors in to kill your post reach. I gave in and started paying $5-10 for a lot of my posts and I'm reaching all of my audience, which then results in a ton of shares and stuff which brings on even more people. It's a dirty game but I find it to be a necessary evil. For every few bucks I spend promoting my posts, I make back in print sales by far


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## Derrel (Jul 21, 2015)

TCampbell said:
			
		

> I find that most "serious" photographers (whether pro or even amateurs at an advanced level of skill) are probably NOT posting their gallery pages on Facebook.  I technically have a FB Google+ has a MUCH MUCH stronger photography community.



At the rate Google continues to develop, then summarily DUMP applications, I doubt their photo community will ever amount to much that comes anywhere close to Facebook's worldwide force. Just today, they announced they are dumping yet another app...

Google to phase out Google Photos Connect

Google develops a platform, and then with no warning, they dump it. That is Google's modus operandi. People only have so much tolerance for being jerked around.


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## TCampbell (Jul 22, 2015)

It's not really Google photos or picassa, etc.  It's Google+ itself that is much stronger in photography.

Facebook never had a concept of "communitites".  The friends lists were based on people you probably knew in real life (somehow... either family, relatives, real-life friends, school, work, etc.)   Google is based "circles" or communities of common interest.   This means when you're making friends in Google, it's more likely with people who actually share common interests.

Also, their ability to present images is much better than Facebook (that's not necessarily saying much because I think Facebook probably has the worst presentation layer of any social media site out there.)

Ever since I got on Google+ I pretty much stay away from Facebook.  Facebook is basically the new MySpace.


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## vfotog (Jul 23, 2015)

ndancona said:


> I was recently sent an angry private message on facebook telling me not to comment on his images.
> 
> I was invited to "Like" this guy's photography page and one of his images caught my eye.  It was a BW portrait of a semi nude girl.  It was side lit with one off camera speed light.  However, he had a bit of light spillage in the background and the image did not have a clean dark background which is what I believe he was trying to achieve.  There was a reflection off a wall or background object that left a visible horizontal line going across the image and intersecting the models head.
> 
> ...



I would have been annoyed with you too. It's a page to promote photography, read by potential customers, clients, friends and family. It's not a site for cc read by photo geeks like here.  I have a lot of photographer friends on FB and am in some photo groups there too, and no one is doing CC on their business page. Critique defeats the purpose of the page. When you posted something negative, it's like criticizing someone in front of everyone. It's embarrassing. If  a friend makes a mistake, I private message them so as to not embarrass them. If you must criticize someone, especially someone you are not that close to, pm them. Common courtesy is still a good thing.


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## Bryston3bsst (Jul 23, 2015)

vfotog said:


> * Common courtesy is still a good thing.*



It's a very good thing. Unfortunately, in the past few years, it has also become a very _rare _thing. People don't give a thought to kicking you in the nuts in public. In fact, to most, that's _entertainment!_


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## c0ldc0ne (Jul 23, 2015)

I'm firmly in the "if you don't want people to comment on your stuff, don't post it on a social media platform" camp.

Also, there is nothing inherently discourteous about providing feedback. Again, if you don't want it shown alongside your stuff, don't use social media. There are plenty of ways to publish your photos while remaining in control of their presentation.

Using Facebook for commercial / promotional purposes does not entitle you to enforce your perception of etiquette onto the world.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 23, 2015)

c0ldc0ne said:


> I'm firmly in the "if you don't want people to comment on your stuff, don't post it on a social media platform" camp.
> 
> Also, there is nothing inherently discourteous about providing feedback. Again, if you don't want it shown alongside your stuff, don't use social media. There are plenty of ways to publish your photos while remaining in control of their presentation.
> 
> Using Facebook for commercial / promotional purposes does not entitle you to enforce your perception of etiquette onto the world.



Actually it's just enforcing your views about etiquette onto your own business page, so you do have that right. People seem to think that using social media means you can just act however you want. Try this- next time you go into a restaurant, start critiquing the food loudly to the waitstaff and cooks in front of other customers. "Oh, not bad, but you  should season the steak like this!". 

It's the delivery of critique in that way that seems entirely self serving to me.


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 23, 2015)

They do that restaurants aren't any different


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 23, 2015)

My opinion is this. If you are invited to like someones FB page and its an "artist"  page specifically for their photography, then its not appropriate to offer open CC on images.  If you truly feel something is wrong with a photo, either ignore it by not liking the photo or send them a PM to tell them what you think.  Open CC on an artist's page is like spray painting your opinions of a store you don't like on its facade!


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## c0ldc0ne (Jul 23, 2015)

Drawing parallels between virtual and physical entities is fraught with problems.

A proper comparison would be to critique a restaurant's food on its Facebook page which to me is equally okay.

And posting constructive criticism as put forth by the OP hardly qualifies as "act however you want". It's not like he launched an all out smear campaign.


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## c0ldc0ne (Jul 23, 2015)

Dagwood56 said:


> Open CC on an artist's page is like spray painting your opinions of a store you don't like on its facade!



No. Just... no.

You are comparing an act of criminal vandalism to using a website the way it was designed.

The photographer's Facebook page was not defaced. He received a well-intentioned suggestion by way of the social component of the platform he chose to present his work on.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 23, 2015)

c0ldc0ne said:


> Dagwood56 said:
> 
> 
> > Open CC on an artist's page is like spray painting your opinions of a store you don't like on its facade!
> ...



Do you have your own photo business?


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 23, 2015)

c0ldc0ne said:


> Dagwood56 said:
> 
> 
> > Open CC on an artist's page is like spray painting your opinions of a store you don't like on its facade!
> ...



The point I was trying to make was that people who have artist pages on facebook, don't expect people to come there and tell them what is wrong with their photos art or whatever. The page is to display their art and gain a bit of recognition. By placing negative CC to something that is visible by the public, is in a way defacing that persons credibility. CC belongs in places like this, forums where people come to learn, not an artist page.


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 23, 2015)

Oops! This wasn't for me - removed - sorry jescordphoto. Quoted the wrong thing.


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 23, 2015)

Do you have your own photo business?[/QUOTE]
Not a business per say, but I sell the odd piece here and there.[/QUOTE]

I was actually asking the other person who apparently sees no problem with being rude on somebodies business page


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 23, 2015)

I just realized that and printed a retraction. lol  I'm typing with two kittens climbing on me.


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## pixmedic (Jul 23, 2015)

social media is just that. _*social.*_
by its very nature it allows people, and even encourages them,  to post things in a manner where other people can comment on it.
FB aside, even sites _*specifically designed*_ for sharing photos like Flickr allow commenting.
if you start a social media page looking for only very specific comments to be made, you really should have some sort of message permanently posted right at the top of your page stating _*exactly*_ what you want so people do not mistake it for you wanting just any old thoughts or suggestions.  

the OP's "mistake" (and I personally don't see it as a mistake except on the page owners part) was to offer an  honest opinion in a helpful manner. _*On a social media site designed for that exact sort of interaction! *_ Had the page owner not overreacted and rage deleted her comments, but instead, accepted the comment in the spirit in which it was given,  they might have simply sent a PM explaining the nature of their FB page and that they were only "like" farming and looking for high-fives instead of sending a nasty message.


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## c0ldc0ne (Jul 23, 2015)

^ This.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 23, 2015)

You can't control what other people may say whether it's a business or not if it's on Facebook or any site that is interactive and allows comments and feedback to be posted.

I think someone would need to post on their own website and link to their social media pages if they want to manage comments or critique. I agree in a professional situation what's usually done would be to send the person a message instead of posting, and that would be a courteous way to handle it, but that isn't necessarily what happens on social media sites.

The person in this case seems to have reacted negatively to comments intended to be constructive and probably should have made clear that people were being invited to follow and view the photos but comments were not being requested.


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## c0ldc0ne (Jul 23, 2015)

jsecordphoto said:


> I was actually asking the other person who apparently sees no problem with being rude on somebodies business page



Offering constructive feedback on content which was deliberately publicized on a social media site that facilitates this sort of interaction by its very nature is not rude.

Putting words in someone's mouth however...


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## waday (Jul 23, 2015)

Just because people may have 'free speech', doesn't mean they won't suffer consequences or backlash.

Using @jsecordphoto's example of a restaurant, if you loudly critique your appetizer, you may just get something else you didn't order in your main course.

You can be an outright bigot... but you won't have many friends.

It's a courtesy thing. If you want to loudly proclaim your critique of someone's work and claim free speech, that's fine, but don't expect to get away freely--you will likely have backlash against you, like having your comment removed and an angry message coming your way...


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 23, 2015)

I wouldn't even bother giving a negative response back, I just delete the comment and move on. Like I said, I belong to a group on FB of just other professional-level landscape photographers strictly for critique, but I feel like it's rude for somebody to critique a photo on my business page- constructive or otherwise. 

People that go around offering unsolicited critique must have a ton of free time, if I critiqued every photo on FB I saw that needed it I'd never have time to even shoot


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## JacaRanda (Jul 23, 2015)

I don't think the OP's intent was to be rude.


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## vfotog (Jul 23, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> social media is just that. _*social.*_
> by its very nature it allows people, and even encourages them,  to post things in a manner where other people can comment on it.
> FB aside, even sites _*specifically designed*_ for sharing photos like Flickr allow commenting.
> if you start a social media page looking for only very specific comments to be made, you really should have some sort of message permanently posted right at the top of your page stating _*exactly*_ what you want so people do not mistake it for you wanting just any old thoughts or suggestions.
> ...



definitely disagreeing. The OP didn't understand how Facebook works and obviously some other folks here don't either. There are all kinds of pages and there is appropriate behavior that really isn't all that difficult to comprehend if someone actually does some thinking. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. Facebook wasn't even designed to provide your opinion on everything. Criticizing someone's image on a page that is promoting their small business isn't like expressing negative opinions on a news story or political issue. It's more like me going up to you in front of your friends and family and clients and saying how ugly your wife or child is and telling you what plastic surgery they should get so they would look "better". You may have the right to do that, but you really shouldn't. It's rude and unnecessary to embarrass people publicly. Particularly when no one asked for your opinion. People don't put disclaimers on their pages because it's generally not needed; the majority of people are smart enough to know the difference. Those that don't...   well, there isn't a much bigger loser than a troll.


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## Overread (Jul 23, 2015)

Dagwood56 said:


> The point I was trying to make was that people who have artist pages on facebook, don't expect people to come there and tell them what is wrong with their photos art or whatever. The page is to display their art and gain a bit of recognition. By placing negative CC to something that is visible by the public, is in a way defacing that persons credibility. CC belongs in places like this, forums where people come to learn, not an artist page.



One wonders two things;

1) If this were  a display of someones building, plastering or other skill for advertising and you saw a problem would it be wrong to comment? I've not even being silly and getting into the "life threatening" area, just a general common bog standard problem - would it be ok to comment then? If so why is art any different - why should it be more protected than any other skill?

2) Art in itself is based on the eye of the beholder - even with critical comments an artists skill and style should be able to sell still. 



In my view the problem was that this public relations situation fell apart because of the photographer's aggressive response. Removing the comment is, in my view, ok; but it should have been responded to in a positive light. The photographer burned a bridge and whilst their facebook page is now "clean" of any potential disagreement with their perfection, they've lost a potential helping voice from someone willing to spend their free time to provide constructive feedback.


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 23, 2015)

Chav cheap trash... Bride-to-be left outraged over swanky restaurant s acid-tongued response to online review - Manchester Evening News I'll show you how not to respond... 

All these comparisons are wrong it's a public bill board where you're allowed to post in the public domain. All the comparisons are with private. Pixmedic said it best...

Work in an industry where being criticised is accepted.

How can there be a right way and a wrong way.


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## pixmedic (Jul 23, 2015)

vfotog said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > social media is just that. _*social.*_
> ...



how FB works?
Facebook works by people posting something, and then getting comments/feedback on what they posted. which is exactly what happened.  I would say the OP understood exactly how FB works, it was the other photographer who apparently did not. 
the problem was not that a response was posted, but that the response was not the pat on the back the page owner was looking for. 
the page owner took a comment from one photographer to another, trying to help them improve, with all the good will in the world, and basically threw it back in their face. 
But lets just say, for the sake of this discussion, that  you are right...Lets throw out both of our opinions on how FB works. is that page owner someone you would really want to do business with? someone who reacts to an act of kindness with vitriol and incivility? Someone who reacts with rage and  hatred at the first sign they arent getting what they wanted?
whatever unspoken codes of conduct you feel the OP broke, they were not done so in a berating or rude manner, and thus did not deserve to be met with such. 
Just because he _*could*_ react by being a douchnozzle doesn't mean he _*should*_ have.


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## vfotog (Jul 23, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> vfotog said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



FB isn't quite that simple. I know too many people that don't even understand the difference between a personal profile and a page. Someone's business page isn't meant to be Yelp, and I can't believe that even needs explaining. A page isn't there to provide for trolls to have more to do. If you have something negative to say to someone, if you are trying to "help" you don't say it publicly. If I want to let you know you have bad breath or you forgot to zip your fly and you're showing more than you want to, I don't just announce it in front of everyone in the room. It's really just Manners 101 and FB and manners really don't have to be mutually exclusive. 

Of course, we have only the OP's side. We don't see what he publicly posted that embarrassed the photographer. I do think his description here was a bit condescending. Everyone was new once, assuming the photographer really is new. We haven't seen the photo either. Photography is also subjective, and we may not all agree on the quality or supposed flaws in the image. But clearly the photographer was embarrassed by the OPs comment and felt it was out of line. I agree with that and have no problem with his objecting to someone publicly posting unrequested CC. OTOH, I would have a problem with working with the OP.


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 23, 2015)

But it's OK for restaurants isn't that one rule for one, one rule for another...?

It is that simple it's a Web page you have no control over. With the ability to leave a comment be that critical or not...

The choice is to use the medium or not!


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## pixmedic (Jul 23, 2015)

vfotog said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > vfotog said:
> ...



even if I agreed with your assessment on social media pages, it still does nothing to balm the fact that someone reacted to what was very obvious to anyone, a person clearly posting what they thought was just helpful information, with malice and condemnation. I understand if you disagree with the OP's supposed breach of FB protocol, and clearly it was a mistake by other peoples standards as well, but surely, as a person of reason and civility, you must be willing to admit the other persons reaction, embarrassed as they  may or may not have been, was clearly out of line and over the top when a much more civil and adult response would have sufficed.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that a tempered response could have gone a long way to facilitating a friendly and even mutually beneficial relationship between the two.   Since you seem to believe the FB photographer is aware of the delicate subtleties of  Facebook page etiquette,  I submit that a polite message to the OP  here explaining the differences between private and business pages, and  how comments should differ between them, would have benefited both parties far better than what was done. The OP could have responded with a polite apology, and both could have continued unfettered by hurt feelings. 
As it stands, not only did neither of them benefit from the exchange, but worse, feelings were hurt where it was totally unnecessary to do so. 
All im really getting at here is that a little civility could have gone a long way. 
maybe the OP here was ignorant of proper FB etiquette... people make mistakes, or don't always know how things work. The response though was not born of ignorance, but of anger, and was deliberately hateful. To me, that is far worse than a simple mistake trying to help.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 23, 2015)

ndancona said:


> I commented on the image complementing him and mentioning that I thought this particular image was the strongest of the set.  Since he is a beginner photographer I thought I would offer some support and point out what I mentioned above, since it's an easy fix.


 
Complementing him, mentioning you thought it was the strongest of the set, offering some support?  RUDE DUDE!

How dare you not read the FB personal page etiquette.


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## table1349 (Jul 23, 2015)

People.....It's Facebook for heavens sake.  Who really gives a Rats @$$.


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## Derrel (Jul 23, 2015)

pixmedic said:
			
		

> even if I agreed with your assessment on social media pages, it still does nothing to balm the fact that someone reacted to what was very obvious to anyone, a person clearly posting what they thought was just helpful information, with malice and condemnation. I understand if you disagree with the OP's supposed breach of FB protocol, and clearly it was a mistake by other peoples standards as well, but surely, as a person of reason and civility, you must be willing to admit the other persons reaction, embarrassed as they  may or may not have been, was clearly out of line and over the top when a much more civil and adult response would have sufficed.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that a tempered response could have gone a long way to facilitating a friendly and even mutually beneficial relationship between the two.   Since you seem to believe the FB photographer is aware of the delicate subtleties of  Facebook page etiquette,  I submit that a polite message to the OP  here explaining the differences between private and business pages, and  how comments should differ between them, would have benefited both parties far better than what was done. The OP could have responded with a polite apology, and both could have continued unfettered by hurt feelings.
> As it stands, not only did neither of them benefit from the exchange, but worse, feelings were hurt where it was totally unnecessary to do so.
> All im really getting at here is that a little civility could have gone a long way.
> maybe the OP here was ignorant of proper FB etiquette... people make mistakes, or don't always know how things work. The response though was not born of ignorance, but of anger, and was deliberately hateful. To me, that is far worse than a simple mistake trying to help.



Who knew you were such an Emily Post, and such a talented writer?


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## table1349 (Jul 23, 2015)

Derrel said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...









 Ohh.....Ohhh....Ohhhh........I did, I did!!!!!!


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## jsecordphoto (Jul 23, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> People.....It's Facebook for heavens sake.  Who really gives a Rats @$$.



Social media is a HUGE part of my business, so I for one care. Other than my business page I couldn't care less about FB. 

And yes, clearly the person the OP critiqued overreacted.


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## dcbear78 (Jul 27, 2015)

I won't give public CC unless specifically asked for it. To me same rules apply even on forums (but I post to forums for the CC). Yes social media is a form for interaction between people, as has been stated. Doesn't mean you have to give the CC publicly. Provide it via a message to the person/page. I am sure they would have taken it more on board and it actually would have been of use. For me my Facebook business page is an advertising medium. So no I would not appreciate it made on a public post either.


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## gckless (Jul 27, 2015)

I only read the first page of this thread, so there might be something I missed in the middle, but my general mindset is that if I post here on a forum, I expect C&C, as should everyone else. This is where we come to learn and teach. As a general rule, I don't comment on Facebook unless they specifically ask. Simply because everyone is wayyyy too sensitive. Everyone gets upset by something. It's exhausting and all too common. But that's characteristic of Generation Y and (moreso) Z.

Money isn't the root of all evil anymore. Attention and popularity are.


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## waday (Jul 27, 2015)

gckless said:


> Simply because there are too many _<edit>_. Everyone gets upset by something. It's exhausting and all too common. *But that's characteristic of Generation Y and (moreso) Z.*


 Please. Overreaction as a defense is a characteristic of a human being, whether 20 or 90.

Also, you may want to watch your language on here.


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## gckless (Jul 27, 2015)

waday said:


> gckless said:
> 
> 
> > Simply because there are too many _<edit>_. Everyone gets upset by something. It's exhausting and all too common. *But that's characteristic of Generation Y and (moreso) Z.*
> ...



It's the amount and nature of things that are different. Generally the older folks take comments more objectively. Younger generations, EVERYTHING is taken personally.

Edited my post. You're right.


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## snerd (Jul 27, 2015)

gckless said:


> ............... Money isn't the root of all evil anymore..........


It never was. It's the "love of" money that's the root of all evil. 

And 100% of family & friends on Facebook can't be wrong............ we're ALL wonderful, professional  photographers!!  LOL!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk Pro


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## JacaRanda (Jul 27, 2015)

snerd said:


> gckless said:
> 
> 
> > ............... Money isn't the root of all evil anymore..........
> ...


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## Forkie (Jul 28, 2015)

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'm going to suggest that putting CC on someone's Facebook page is not best practice.  

Giving CC in this forum is fine - it is a forum specifically for the purpose and photographers who put their work here understand that people will point out their opinions or ways to improve their technique.  

Facebook, however, is a different arena altogether.  Many photographers use Facebook as a business page in order to get their photos into the public domain and as a way to generate business and attract new clients.  They won't want you pointing out their mistakes there as all their potential customers will see it.  If you must do it on Facebook do it in a private message, never in the comments section of an image.


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## snowbear (Jul 28, 2015)

I like turtles.


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## table1349 (Jul 28, 2015)

snowbear said:


> I like turtles.


Fried or in a soup?


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## snowbear (Jul 28, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> snowbear said:
> 
> 
> > I like turtles.
> ...


This one:


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## Forkie (Jul 28, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> *But it's OK for restaurants isn't that one rule for one, one rule for another...?*
> 
> It is that simple it's a Web page you have no control over. With the ability to leave a comment be that critical or not...
> 
> The choice is to use the medium or not!



Yes.  It_ is_ one rule for one and one rule for another.  It's a bit like you being able to swear and curse at a barbecue with your friends, but you wouldn't do it during tea and cakes with elderly Mr and Mrs Montague.

Large businesses have enough of a reputation and client base that a single complaint or negative comment on a Facebook business page can be easily absorbed by all the other people who had a great time/experience/left good reviews. For someone with their own one-man business that relies on a visual portfolio to gain clients and earn a living, people pointing out image errors directly under the images for all to see could kill it.  If it was a photo that the OP had nothing to do with, he had no business offering C&C in public.  Even if it was a photo _of_ the OP, common courtesy dictates a message of that type be sent in private.

There is a thing in civilised society called tact, which when employed avoids situations like the one OP got himself into.

No one would do the same with a photo on a personal website and a Facebook business page is essentially the same thing.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 28, 2015)

Could get a little touchy which I guess is kinda okay.

I see a whole bunch of tactless and even tacky things on Facebook from a whole bunch of people living in a so called civilized society.
I get what you are saying Forkie and almost totally agree.

However, I believe the OP made an honest mistake and probably would not repeat it; if it's agreed that it was a mistake.


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## table1349 (Jul 28, 2015)

While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.  

In this particular case BOTH lacked a degree of tact.


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## waday (Jul 28, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question. Samething could apply here. If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.


Many people are also taught that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all...


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## table1349 (Jul 28, 2015)

True, but were they also taught to go begging for compliments?

Like I said, Both parties lacked tack in this situation.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 28, 2015)

I don't think he was not being nice.  He was just giving advice which makes it so weird.


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## Vtec44 (Jul 28, 2015)

As a business owner, I do not appreciate people publicly critiquing my images on my FB page without being asked.  I have no problem deleting comments and banning people from my page.  It's not a free for all page.  It has nothing to do with ego but more or less business and perception of the business.  I don't know everything and it's always a constant learning process.  I practice every day, learn new things everyday, and apply what I learned to my business.  People hire me because of my vision and how I do things, whether it is good or bad in the eyes of another person.  Since art is more subjective, EVERYONE has a freaking opinion.  I have potential clients on the page reading everything.  My business page is NOT the place for anyone to voice their own personal opinion about my photographs, unless you're a paying client.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 28, 2015)

Maybe a sticky on every FB page to let folks know they should not critique. 
"DON'T CRITIQUE MY WORK UNLESS YOU PAY ME" or unless it's positive.


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 28, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.
> 
> In this particular case BOTH lacked a degree of tact.



Invites to like a page are not open invitations to critique photos. I'm not sure if you have a facebook page or not or if you are familiar with how facebook works, but there are many different types of pages, personal ones, business, artist, community entertainment etc., plus group pages. Most group pages are closed and you must join them. On group pages, critique is often asked for and given openly, but group pages and personal pages are much different than artist and business pages. I have invited people to like my artist page on facebook, but I would not tolerate anyone giving open critique of my photos, because that's not why I post them there. My page is a gallery of my work. As I said somewhere else in this thread, on facebook, if someone doesn't like a photo, then ignore it, or you send a PM to the artist or business owner. Its called good manners.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 28, 2015)

Dagwood56 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.
> ...



I am totally with you on what would be ideal manners, etiquette, tact, etc.   But since FB is on the great big www, with bazillions of users (many brand new) from all over creation; to think everyone would be educated on everything is wishful thinking.  

As far as the OP - I believe he fully understands where he went wrong, even though his intentions seemed to be good.  Can you imagine how many OP's are out there though?  
Delete the post, send a private message, help someone understand etiquette.  Maybe gain a new customer.


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## waday (Jul 28, 2015)

JacaRanda said:


> As far as the OP


Speaking of the OP, where did he get to? I think we scared him off.


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 28, 2015)

I wondered the same thing.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 28, 2015)

waday said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the OP
> ...



No doubt we did.  Poor guy was probably hoping for a different response.  LMAO


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## waday (Jul 28, 2015)

JacaRanda said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > JacaRanda said:
> ...


I'm sure he was! haha!


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## table1349 (Jul 28, 2015)

Dagwood56 said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.
> ...


While that may be true, invites of this nature are to me the equivilent of the busniss robo calls at suppertime wanting to sell me something.   As for a facebook page, I did, I don't now.  I am very, very familiar with how facebook works, especially in my line of work.  That is probably why I detest Facebook in the first place.  When I am looking for a service places like Facebook are the last place I would go to.  

Call me skeptical but I never used to call the number under the "For a good time call..." on the public restroom wall either.


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## Vtec44 (Jul 28, 2015)

A client found me on FB through a friend, followed my work, like my work, flew me to Scotland to shoot her wedding.  So FB has been treating me very well.  It's not the only platform I use to get my name out there though.


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## Forkie (Jul 28, 2015)

Vtec44 said:


> A client found me on FB through a friend, followed my work, like my work, flew me to Scotland to shoot her wedding.  So FB has been treating me very well.  It's not the only platform I use to get my name out there though.



I get most of my clients through Facebook too.  I get more views on my Facebook page than my website.


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## Vtec44 (Jul 28, 2015)

Forkie said:


> I get most of my clients through Facebook too.  I get more views on my Facebook page than my website.



My website is where I have all my information, full portfolio, contact, pricing, etc.  However, FB and other networking platforms are part of my on going social proof marketing.  Having someone posting unwanted critique is counter-productive to what I'm trying to do.  My page is where I showcase my work to potential clients and posting a disclaimer is tacky.  Sure people have the rights to post.  As the owner of the page, I'll be more than happy to remove all the unwanted comments on my page.  It seems like business owners understand this professional courtesy and we avoid posting unwanted critiques on someone's business page, especially when it's another artist.  It's nothing personal, strictly business.


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## DanOstergren (Jul 28, 2015)

I see it as very rude and extremely self-serving to leave critique on someone's public facebook page, especially if they use the page as a way to bring clients to their business. I think it's always best to send a PM if I have critique for something on someone's page.

If it's posted in a photography group or forum though, then I think it's open game for critique unless the photographer specifically says "I'm not looking for critique".


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## hamlet (Jul 29, 2015)

I once had the chance to critique a photo on G+ but my better nature said that i shouldn't. I'll probably only come here and do that for the benefit of myself and for the person i'm giving advice to, because when i look at other peoples pictures i can be more objective about the flaws and find correlations to the mistakes i'm making in the images i'm too invested in emotionally.


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## vfotog (Jul 30, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.
> 
> In this particular case BOTH lacked a degree of tact.




But inviting someone to like your page isn't an invitation to critique. It's not asking a question. Uninvited criticism on a non CC page is like accepting an invitation to a wedding and asking for all to hear why the groom married such an unattractive and stupid woman when he could have done so much better by getting someone younger and thinner and richer...


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## vfotog (Jul 30, 2015)

JacaRanda said:


> Maybe a sticky on every FB page to let folks know they should not critique.
> "DON'T CRITIQUE MY WORK UNLESS YOU PAY ME" or unless it's positive.



That's really not necessary. Most people aren't that stupid that they need to be told how to use Facebook. It's just that special few...


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

You lot all seem to think there is a way to use Facebook. It's a way of networking like a room of strangers you get everyone else . 

It's a room of strangers networking not a directory listing. It's not a directory listing or advert.

You can use it any way you like just like anyone else can.

It's absurd to think there's a right or wrong way of using. It's not the latest incarnation of the yellow pages.

It's nothing more than a place for strangers to communicate. What that is will be everything and anything goes.

It boils down to how you react not expecting strangers to follow imposed guidelines


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## Forkie (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> You lot all seem to think there is a way to use Facebook. It's a way of networking like a room of strangers you get everyone else .
> 
> It's a room of strangers networking not a directory listing. It's not a directory listing or advert.
> 
> ...



But the same networking rules still apply on Facebook as they do in the real world.  You wouldn't go to a photography convention and point out the flaws in a photographer's photos on display at his stall.


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

Forkie said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> > You lot all seem to think there is a way to use Facebook. It's a way of networking like a room of strangers you get everyone else .
> ...


It's not the same not close, even if it was whilst you'd not expect it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a numbers game I'm sure you know more than your fair share of people who you'd rather not talk to.

What some are saying in this thread and expecting I don't think any other industry would expect....

"I have a public facing Web page with the ability to leave comments I only expect positive comments."

I presume the above comment reads just as absurdly to others as it does to me.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 30, 2015)

So the millions of people from all kinds of backgrounds, education levels, cultures, countries, ages etc. etc. SHOULD know FB protocol?  Good luck.
Sorry OP, you are one of the special few.


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## Forkie (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> Forkie said:
> 
> 
> > FeatherMonkey said:
> ...




A photographer's Facebook business page is a place for the photographer to sell his/her work or services.  How can they do that if other photographers who have no place to do so, critique their work?  

It has nothing to do with "If you put your work online, you should expect good and bad comments".  No, that doesn't fly.  Anyone with a modicum of respect for their fellow photographer would not post negative comments on another's work.


----------



## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

Forkie said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> > Forkie said:
> ...


It's not the same no where does it say that's how businesses should use fb that's how you choose to use it. Just like others choose to use it by leaving comments. 

No business wants negative comments only a fool would expect none.


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## waday (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> It's a way of networking like a room of strangers you get everyone else .



Try going to a networking event and critiquing everyone's work. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. 

Photography is a hobby to me, but in my career field of engineering, if I went to a networking event and negatively critiqued my peers, you better believe someone would overhear and my boss/boss' boss/ boss' boss' boss would be contacted and I would get a severe 'talking to'. It's bad business and bad PR to negatively critique another business in the public eye.



FeatherMonkey said:


> No business wants negative comments only a fool would expect none.



True, but businesses will also have the right to: (1) remove your unwanted comments, (2) send a rebuttal private message, (3) block you from their site, (4) not serve you as a customer, and (5) not provide a good reference for you.

Again, a little courtesy goes a long way. You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.


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## table1349 (Jul 30, 2015)

vfotog said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > While I get the concept, remember the OP was INVITED to like the person with the facebook page.  I was taught long ago by my mother...... If you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.  Samething could apply here.  If you don't want responses from people don't go asking them to "Like" you or your facebook page.
> ...



Unsolicited invitations to "like me or like my page" are nothing more than spam, digital junk mail.  Let's face a little reality about Facebook and other sites like it.  It cost you nothing, not one red cent.  To those that use it, it is nothing more than some FREE advertising. Oh Goody Goody.....................  You get what you pay for and you expectations should match that cost as well.  

Facebook and other "social media" sites like Facebook gives you this "service" so you can be their carnival hawker to draw them in a crowd.   They make their money from all the unsolicited ads they have.  Same spam, same digital junk mail.  I don't want to pretend I'm a farmer, I don't want to pretend I'm a mofioso, I don't want to crush some candy and I don't want unsolicited "please suck up to me" invitations from the Facebook tools.   If you stick fliers on every door in town inviting every unknown Tom, Dick and Mary to your wedding well you are going to get those that have questions and opinions.  If you don't think it will happen then you need to get back to the real world or perhaps be a bit more selective in your invitations.  

You have a brick and mortor store and someone paints all over the store front, you have a legitimate beef.  You buy a domain name, pay someone to build it for you and pay your monthy fee and somebody hacks it again a legitimate beef.  Remember if you build that site you don't have to build into it the ability for others to respond or leave comments.  

Perhaps taking a trick from the big companies would be a better way to go.  Instead of complaining about lemons and throwing them in the trash, make lemonade.  Many of the most successful sites don't delete the unfavorible posts, they address them often supplying additional advise, rectifying the problem or even admitting that what was suggested might have some merit and will be looked into in the future.  

Like I stated all along, I am not defending the OP or thier actions, both parties lacked tact in the situation.  The fact is this is "Social Media" which means a little give and take.  S#!% happens sometimes and people get a little askew, but to get your panties all in a wad because you didn't get the the comment you wanted while using some freebee you are taking advantage of equally as tacky.


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## Forkie (Jul 30, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> vfotog said:
> 
> 
> > gryphonslair99 said:
> ...



Can I point out that this (bolded) is not the case.  Facebook does not spam people to Like your business page at random.  In fact, it does the _exact opposite_.  You have to *PAY* for your page to be advertised in people's News Feeds on a Pay Per Click basis.  Yes, Facebook will highlight the fact that someone has liked your business page to that person's friends, but even then, it is only to friends who have related interests already listed in their profile.  The other time is if you consciously share your page publicly or someone else shares it on your behalf.  

The point of getting people to like your page is so that their friends might like it and their friends' friends might like it too.  Like a network, oddly enough.  You presume, that if someone doesn't like your work, that they won't like your page, not criticise it openly. 

You talk about "_in the real world, this_" or "_in the real world, that_" as if Facebook and social media is a fad or phase that will be gone soon and we can all go back to "normal", but the reality is that Facebook and all other social media is the real world.  It is the 21st century and these places are where business is done in the 21st century.  Therefore, etiquette, good PR and good business practice is as important there as it is/was in your "real world".  

As an aside:

I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, but I feel I really must point out that there are a lot of "old timer" photographers out there who continually spout their _"Facebook, Flickr, 500px, Twitter, Instagram or any other social media is for happy snappers, MUACS, the unsophisticated, noobs and amateurs.  In my day, you printed your portfolio in leather-bound albums , etc., etc"_ crap.  Well, you know what, Old Timer? It is no longer your day.  We are now in the day of digital, online, social, global communication and international business and there is an etiquette.  An etiquette that is just as important online now as it was in your days of paper, film and dark rooms.  Stop thinking of digital as a lesser photography or a lesser business or a lesser interaction and catch up.


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## Dagwood56 (Jul 30, 2015)

Forkie said:


> The point of getting people to like your page is so that their friends might like it and their friends' friends might like it too. Like a network, oddly enough. You presume, that if someone doesn't like your work, that they won't like your page, not criticise it openly.



This ^^ *Exactly!!!*


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

waday said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> > It's a way of networking like a room of strangers you get everyone else .
> ...


The thing and has been expanded this isn't a dedicated networking event, it's not a place. I'm sure you know of a few people who can't keep quiet opinions even in public places. Anyway it's not a question right or wrong but will it happen or not.

A better analogy would be a soapbox in the town square next to the doom sayer with the board "the world ends tomorrow."

Just because people use it like an advertising medium doesn't make it one. It is a communication medium and that only. Just like I can use the phone to make a positive comment or negative same with facebook, just like I can solicit new business or deal with complaints. Sadly my phone call comment can now be public.

As gryphonslair99 I agree the business that use it as a communication media give the public an opportunity to see there customer skills in operation. I also think these get the best return for time invested, certainly over the business that think it's a public bill board.

Sadly for us oldies... "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing"... disappeared years ago. Public dissatisfaction can be rewarded. Fb is a young persons media tell someone under 25 they shouldn't leave a negative comment see what they say to you.


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## waday (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> Just because people use it like an advertising medium doesn't make it one. It is a communication medium and that only.


This is just plain false. See Forkie's response, because I can't say it better:



Forkie said:


> Facebook does not spam people to Like your business page at random. In fact, it does the _exact opposite_. You have to *PAY* for your page to be advertised in people's News Feeds on a Pay Per Click basis.



Facebook isn't free advertising. You have to pay for advertising. Just like all other mediums. 

How Facebook Ads Work Facebook for Business



FeatherMonkey said:


> Sadly for us oldies... "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing"... disappeared years ago. Public dissatisfaction can be rewarded. Fb is a young persons media tell someone under 25 they shouldn't leave a negative comment see what they say to you.



Sorry, but your inductive reasoning is completely false.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 30, 2015)

With all the crazy things and people in this world, it's hard to believe that any of us would EXPECT courtesy from every stranger on FB of all places.
Common Courtesy?  How common are we and how do you get 1.44 billion people to act or think commonly? 

The OP is a fellow photographer and he did not even know the etiquette. 
Heck, we don't always have common courtesy in TPF.  I am a total jerk sometimes 

Group hug and I apologize for my past and future jerkiness.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 30, 2015)

Forkie said:


> As an aside:
> 
> I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, but I feel I really must point out that there are a lot of "old timer" photographers out there who continually spout their _"Facebook, Flickr, 500px, Twitter, Instagram or any other social media is for happy snappers, MUACS, the unsophisticated, noobs and amateurs.  In my day, you printed your portfolio in leather-bound albums , etc., etc"_ crap.  Well, you know what, Old Timer? It is no longer your day.  We are now in the day of digital, online, social, global communication and international business and there is an etiquette.  An etiquette that is just as important online now as it was in your days of paper, film and dark rooms.  Stop thinking of digital as a lesser photography or a lesser business or a lesser interaction and catch up.


 
100% Agree


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

waday said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> > Just because people use it like an advertising medium doesn't make it one. It is a communication medium and that only.
> ...


Strawman argument either it's acceptable to leave any comments because it's not a business page but not if you paid to get included in others news feed. Just because you don't pay doesn't make it not marketing/advertising I'm not the one that says it's unacceptable to post negative.

I know anything goes, like the town square, I also know the young ones use it differently than you do.

If you put your expectations on others expect them to fail.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 30, 2015)

LOL@Waday.  I know you agree to my sometimey jerkiness.    Almost snorted a little coffee out


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## waday (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> If you put expectations on others expect them to fail.


Agree with this to a certain extent. I always plan for others to fail, but I do have an expectation (or hope, haha) that they will succeed.



JacaRanda said:


> LOL@Waday.  I know you agree to my sometimey jerkiness.    Almost snorted a little coffee out



Sometimes people need it..


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## Forkie (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> If you put your expectations on others expect them to fail.



I can agree with this statement.  

And when they do fail, they shall hereby be corrected (which I think OP has been, quite comprehensively, in this thread!).


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

Forkie said:


> FeatherMonkey said:
> 
> 
> > If you put your expectations on others expect them to fail.
> ...


You'll be there a while, over the years I've seen every response to negative comments on fb. Can't say there's a right way or wrong way. I've seen ignore, I've seen delete, I've seen slagging matches and I've seen charm the socks of them in the public arena. 

Out of them all charming the socks of them seems the best way, but I can find examples of all the above responses and they still have successfully businesses. 

It's the product that sells negative comments soon dissappear, if you're doing everything right.


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## pixmedic (Jul 30, 2015)

well, im sure by now the OP has learned _*something *_from all this...
not sure what, but im certain there's a lesson in here *somewhere*.

on a serious note...and I will try to ask this in a way that does not infer a sense of willful ignorance on my part, but instead, a genuine avidity for erudition...

How is one made aware of all the aphorisms that make up the unspoken "rules" of social media?
Are all internet Business pages immune to the random musings of the proletariat?
I admit to not maintaining a very substantial business internet presence myself. Not due to any amount of philistinism on my part mind you, but rather, a lack of necessity. So given that most people are only acclimated to the use of social media pages as a strictly "social" nature, it doesn't quite fit that everyone would automatically attune their mindset that a business page is somehow different. The facile answer is to simply say it is "common sense", but I find that answer to be most unsatisfying, as I think social media interaction is more of a learned  behavior. Perhaps the question of business page etiquette is not "what" should be done,  but rather, "where" do we learn how to do it?

interestingly enough, upon retrospection of this thread, I have found myself pondering the implications of critique given on my Flickr page, and how I might react to it.
honestly, its not something I have really reflected on prior to this.
On one hand, Its just a place where I throw pretty much everything.
On the other hand, I do use it to show people my work, which sometimes results in _*more*_ work, so I recognize now that I would not want potential clients seeing critique in the comments when im trying to pass myself off as someone who knows what they are doing.

Live and Learn eh?


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

For me got it covered I agree there is no standard to be expected or correct response.

As for show boating material on Flickr with no comments this should help not tried. 

Flickr The Help Forum How do I turn off comments boxes 

So use a medium you can turn off comments over a medium based on commentary.


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## pixmedic (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> For me got it covered I agree there is no standard to be expected or correct response.
> 
> As for show boating material on Flickr with no comments this should help not tried.
> 
> ...



cant  you turn off comments on FB business pages too?


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## FeatherMonkey (Jul 30, 2015)

Not as far as I know, the whole approach of fb is comments without it wouldn't it just be a directory listing?


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## pixmedic (Jul 30, 2015)

FeatherMonkey said:


> Not as far as I know, the whole approach of fb is comments without it wouldn't it just be a directory listing?



would be the same as a flickr page with comments disabled i would imagine. 
just another image hosting site...albeit, a crappy compressed one...


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## waday (Jul 30, 2015)

Just in case people wanted to know, here's an example of the OP's critique of the FB post...




 

Taken from this article.

(I'm aware that this is not my image, but considering it is widely spread throughout the internet, it seemed similar to the forum's take on memes...)


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## JacaRanda (Jul 30, 2015)

OMG #7


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## table1349 (Jul 30, 2015)

#15 isn't too bad either.


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## Vtec44 (Jul 30, 2015)

I would never walk into an artist's gallery, publicly critique his images in front of his potential clients even if I feel that they are "inferior" to my own.  It serves me no purpose other than making me look like I'm more knowledgeable than someone else in front of all of his potential clients, and feel "superior".  You'll never see a respectable artist does that to another, even when he/she has every rights to do so.  I have very little respect for people that do that to another person.


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## Forkie (Jul 31, 2015)

Bryston3bsst said:


> Forkie said:
> 
> 
> > As an aside:
> ...



And what do you do with children who show bad manners?  

You tell them why they're wrong so that they may eventually end up as decent members of a civilised society.


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## table1349 (Jul 31, 2015)

Forkie said:


> Bryston3bsst said:
> 
> 
> > Forkie said:
> ...


Okay then children........Quit paying Facebook to be your Robo Spammer sending out your unsolicited like me/see me ads. It's bad manners to do so.


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## waday (Jul 31, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Forkie said:
> 
> 
> > Bryston3bsst said:
> ...


Can we also tell this to every politician (and their idiot cronies/cults), religion, insurance company, and car dealership? I hate their ads all over television, billboards, phone, internet, etc... Well, I quite like the Subaru ads...

What I find funny, is that it's not bad manners. If you're using Facebook, you have to realize there will be ads on there. That's part of Facebook. Facebook connects you to things... some things are friends, some things are events, and others are businesses.

If you don't want ads on Facebook, then... don't use Facebook? 

To me, bad manners means an impoliteness resulting from an ignorance of an accepted social norm (thanks internet! ). For example, using a free social media site (say, Facebook) with full-knowledge of a particular pitfall (say, ads) and then go on to complain about said pitfall. It's a free service; they have to make money somehow. You knew it when you signed up for their free service.

(As a side note, if you're PAYING for a service, and you still have ads, well then you absolutely have a right to complain, IMO. )


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## Forkie (Jul 31, 2015)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Forkie said:
> 
> 
> > Bryston3bsst said:
> ...



Would paying The Photo Forum owners to put an ad on the front page be a more acceptable option?


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## table1349 (Jul 31, 2015)

We can we also tell this to every politician (and their idiot cronies/cults), religion, insurance company, and car dealership? I hate their ads all over television, billboards, phone, internet, etc... Well, I quite like the Subaru ads...  To do so just drop network TV,  even better, I do not have one book in my house that has ads in the middle, not one blu-ray that interrupts the move with ads, not one song on my iPod that stops every little bit to play an ad.  Netflix's doesn't interrupt my move with ads.  Lots of choices beyond the sit there and shovel it too me method of entertainment.  

Phone - caller ID.  I don't know you, I don't answer.  

Billboards - pay attention to your driving, not your cell phone, the person sitting next to you, the shops along the way or the billboards.   

Internet-If you haven't figure that one out, unplug your computer or quite going to those porn sites.  They you won't get all that unsolicited SPAM.  

What I find funny, is that it's not bad manners. If you're using Facebook, you have to realize there will be ads on there. That's part of Facebook. Facebook connects you to things... some things are friends, some things are events, and others are businesses.  You also have to realize if you are using Facebook there are a lot of people that don't like the unsolicited ads and choose to object..  That's part of Facebook.

If you don't want ads on Facebook, then... don't use Facebook?  If you don't want people commenting on you unsolicited spam, then... don't use Facebook. 

To me, bad manners means an impoliteness resulting from an ignorance of an accepted social norm (thanks internet! ). For example, using a free social media site (say, Facebook) with full-knowledge of a particular pitfall (say, people detesting spam and the spammers) and then go on to complain about said pitfall the backlash to their spam causes. It's a free service; they have to make money somehow. You knew it when you signed up for their free service and chose to be a part of the problem by adding your spam to the rest that not everyone would like it.

(As a side note, if you're PAYING for a service, and you send unsolicited ads, well then you absolutely have no right to complain, IMO. )


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## table1349 (Jul 31, 2015)

Forkie said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > Forkie said:
> ...


Interesting that you should mention that.   How about taking a lesson from The Photo Forum.  Their ads are on the top bar and side bar of their page. NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CONVERSATION.  Wow, now there is a thought.  Put it where people can look at it if they choose not sending it directly to their conversations.  What a novel idea, pay to have your ad in the top or sidebar, not sent out as a robo spam.  And it would be much politer than the new found "etiquette" of the young.  (Not mentioning anyone in particular of course)


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## waday (Jul 31, 2015)

@gryphonslair99, your post looks a little messy without my quotes. I wasn't sure if you were agreeing with me on the Subaru commercials or not... 

That said, I understand your perspective. I'm going to politely agree to disagree. Hopefully you will, too.

Also, hasn't this thread gone on long enough considering the OP hasn't responded?


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## table1349 (Jul 31, 2015)

Some of the Subaru commercials are good.  I also enjoy many of the Farmers insurance commercials.  Mercedes does have a few good ones such as.....






Nah the thread can never go on too long, (just look at the coffee thread)  just change direction since the OP hasn't come back.


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## ndancona (Jul 31, 2015)

I am the OP and I'm back.

I've read through the entire thread.  Opinions obviously differ but I have learned a few lessons.

As for the person I critiqued, he is not a pro but obviously has aspirations to be one.  He was just doing his first portraits of friends and colleagues.  I was politely offering my help.

Anyway, I've unliked him and moved on.


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## Solarflare (Jul 31, 2015)

I think the guy in question simply had a certain lack of self confidence, and cant handle criticism well.


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