# Nikon Df



## Garbz (Nov 5, 2013)

Nikon Df

Nikon Df combines classic design with modern technology: Digital Photography Review

Seriously, wtf. There's a reason the "timeless" design died out. They were uncomfortable to hold, ergonomics won out and the timeless designs went away. Yes the Olympus OM-D was a hit, but it's half the size and half the weight of the Nikon Df. The Df is heavier and bigger than the Nikon F series, and even my Nikon FE was uncomfortable to hold without a battery grip.

So what the hell? Who would buy this other than a hipster when it's the same price as a D800 which appears to be technically superior?


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## gsgary (Nov 5, 2013)

It will be a massive hit it looks like a proper camera and without vidio mode is perfect

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## pixmedic (Nov 5, 2013)

as a wedding second shooter, I would LOVE this camera! 
Its smaller and lighter than a traditional DSLR, and gives me all the features I would need. 
Its still a DSLR, and it isn't stuck with one fixed lens so i can use all my Nikon glass with it. 
For me, 39 AF points is plenty. 1/4000 SS is plenty. 5.5 FPS is plenty. 1 SD card slot is plenty.  it has the D4 sensor and the Expeed 3 processor.  more than enough power. I dont care about video. at all. 

it appears to have easy button placement so shooting in manual isn't a pain. It shoots raw, magnesium allow body....I dont need to go over the whole list obviously, you can just click on the link, but....it looks pretty impressive to me. 
Of course, there's the real kicker. At close to $3k for the body, the price tag is pretty impressive as well. 
BUT! I can see absolutely NO reason why this camera would not make a fantastic camera for weddings, on location portrait shoots...pretty much anything that requires you to carry around that camera for long periods of time. You get a smaller, lighter body that still provides professional results. win/win!

would I buy this over a D800? I dunno. I would REALLY have to do a side by side comparison  of the two. maybe go see them in person.
If the price was a little lower, I would definitely pick this camera over a D610.


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## goodguy (Nov 5, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> as a wedding second shooter, I would LOVE this camera!
> Its smaller and lighter than a traditional DSLR, and gives me all the features I would need.
> Its still a DSLR, and it isn't stuck with one fixed lens so i can use all my Nikon glass with it.
> For me, 39 AF points is plenty. 1/4000 SS is plenty. 5.5 FPS is plenty. 1 SD card slot is plenty.  it has the D4 sensor and the Expeed 3 processor.  more than enough power. I dont care about video. at all.
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong but I thought this camera can swap lenses like any DSLR


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## pixmedic (Nov 5, 2013)

goodguy said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > as a wedding second shooter, I would LOVE this camera!
> ...



yes. thats why I said... "Its still a DSLR, and it _*isn't*_ stuck with one fixed lens so _* i can use all my Nikon glass with it*_."


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## usayit (Nov 5, 2013)

Never been a fan of Nikon but I think this thing is awesome!  It will be a big hit.

Place the most relevant controls on the top plate, make them physical/tactile, make all their settings visible at a glance, make their value positions absolute, and do it with a time tested intuitive design.   Perfect!   Look at that on and off switch!  No more pressing buttons and looking at a LED indicator to tell me if the camera is on or off.  You can just feel it.  

I never thought that the generous (often abused) UI designs that rely mostly on "soft" controls ever worked.  We are humans that work well with the physical buttons and dials.   

The only camera that got it close was the Epson R-D1... Leica M just behind the Epson.  Their ISO settings and other info is still hidden behind a menu/button push.


Good one Nikon.


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## amolitor (Nov 5, 2013)

I was thinking this might be a good backup camera for a pro, it has some pro-ness to it, but it's just got the single SD card slot. I get why they did that, this thing was obviously on a diet to crush it into the smallest package they could manage, but it does seem like pros are gonna be 'uh, where's my CF slot? My backup has to be accessory-compatible with my main'. Ditto the battery situation.

Pricewise it actually looks to me like you might not even be paying much of a premium for the retro look. The guts are a bastard mix of D600 and D4, all off the shelf stuff, but if the body is as rugged as it looks the price point is pretty close to where it would be if the thing was black and rounded.


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## GDHLEWIS (Nov 5, 2013)

It is a thing of beauty there is no doubt about that. As it was said above the old designs were a lot more uncomfortable over long periods of time but wow what a looker, but that price is just madness in my view. if they dropped the price by a grand those things would be back ordered for the next two years more than enough to make up the profit margins for Nikon. Some one else said in another thread that there is nothing new here, just that all Nikon have really done was dig out a few old molds and some extra parts from other cameras and just put it all together. But DAMN what a pretty bugger it is.


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## goodguy (Nov 5, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> goodguy said:
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> > pixmedic said:
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Oh silly me, my brain is numb, worked night shift so I guess I was half sleeping when reading your post


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## Derrel (Nov 5, 2013)

usayit said:


> Never been a fan of Nikon but I think this thing is awesome!  It will be a big hit.
> 
> Place the most relevant controls on the top plate, make them physical/tactile, make all their settings visible at a glance, make their value positions absolute, and do it with a time tested intuitive design.   Perfect!   Look at that on and off switch!  No more pressing buttons and looking at a LED indicator to tell me if the camera is on or off.  You can just feel it.
> 
> ...



Some very good points. The interesting thing about the "f" being the "fusion" of old and new is how this thing will work with millions of older lenses. It has BOTH analog speed and analog f/stop control options, and it also has a front or sub-command dial for the f/stop, and a rear or main command dial for setting the shutter speeds when using the 1/3 STEP shutter dial setting. So--it offers BOTH the old control ethos AS WELL AS the new idiom of a rear or "main command dial" for adjusting shutter speeds, and that front-mounted roughly 10mm wheel is the "sub-command" dial as Nikon calls it, for f/stop control. (I assume the two command dials can also have their functions swapped, as is the norm with Nikon.)

I am interested to hear some of the details on exactly what metering and exposure input options are available for setting up the camera to use lenses that have an aperture ring.


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## Aloicious (Nov 5, 2013)

without actually using it, I'm still cautiously optimistic about it. it fills a need that I've been waiting for, which is a proper D700 replacement (at least in my eyes)....is it perfect? no...would I have preferred different things about it? you bet....does it deserve all the speculative hate that it has been getting? no...I'm not even up to date on the random internet complaints people are making, I stopped paying attention about the time people started complaining about what the term 'pure' meant and how their personal interpretation of 'pure' would affect their buying choices....but I suppose some people have nothing better to do.

what it looks like to me (and is being marketed as) is a D4 level performance, in a small, lightweight but sturdy, less expensive (in comparison to the D4) body, albeit with a few compromises for cost/size/weight sake. which is basically what I've felt the D700 was (D3 performance in a smaller, lighterweight, less expensive (compared to the D3, all at time of release) body, albeit with a few compromises)...the fact that the Df is a 'classic' type style (or retro, or whatever you want to call it), is simply cosmetic, and not the main purpose of the camera as so many people seem to think. 

The price is a bit high, but I don't think it is unwarranted. coming from the 'its a D700 replacement' frame of mind, remember that the D3 was $5k at release, and the D700 was $3k....sounds pretty similar to the D4 and Df to me...also the build quality on the Df looks outstanding, all those dials and things are all machined/engraved metal, they're not painted plastic. its got the magnesium body with proper weathersealing, blah blah blah...all the specs are out there...

I do wish it had swappable focus screens (though they don't have any available now, I've read nothing that says they won't in the future, or that third party brands will be unable to provide any), I wish the card slot wasn't in the battery door, but I understand why it is, I wish it had a better battery, but the fact that they were able to squeeze a rating of 1400 shots per charge out of what it has, is incredible (that's more than the D700, D800, D600, D610, D7000, D7100, etc...), Ergonomics do look a little different, but they don't look BAD, it would probably take a little getting used to, but nothing overly problematic. I do wish it had 1/8000 shutter speed, but I don't really need it, I can count the times I've needed 1/8000 on one hand without using all my fingers. The D600 focusing system is a bit of a downer, but really I don't NEED 51 points, and as far as it's performance on the Df, well that remains to be seen, it could be very good....and of course there is the price, it is pretty expensive, I wish it were lower, but its also the introductory price, Nikon will have discounts, rebates, refurbished models, and other various pricing adjustment opportunities as time goes on...especially with it being released at the end of November with the holidays right around the corner, as well as post holiday sales, etc...

for me it seems like it will be a very good body. Definitely not for everyone, but good none the less. So, while I won't be putting in a pre-order for it, I will be taking a serious look when its out, with the strong possibility of getting one. It looks like it will serve MY business needs fairly well, since I cover many automotive events for part of my business, I need moderate MP with high ISO handling (for workflow and the piss poor lighting at most indoor events). the light weight will be very nice. and quite honestly, I think the classic styling may actually help my business, at least benefit in terms of networking...many automotive events I cover are classics cars, muscle cars, general Americana/nostalgia stuff, walking around with something that looks different and classic will definitely be a potential point to start a networking conversation with people (I used to get asked about my D3s all the time since it was larger than the average camera), and this could help drum up some contacts to eventually build some business with the demographic that I typically see at these shows (although my business is not a typical photography business, I'm not trying to sell prints or shoot weddings or anything like that, its journalistic, I'm looking for advertisers, sponsors, etc).

I think it has great potential, it definitely fills a need in the current lineup, although definitely not for everyone....but I really want to see how things play out once it actually gets released.


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## sashbar (Nov 5, 2013)

I love the ISO dial here, but what is really missing here it is U1 U2 options on that P-S-A-M dial.. Or maybe I am missing it?


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## cosmonaut (Nov 5, 2013)

I think it's going to sale like hot cakes. It is expected delivery for November 28th. That's awful quick. I hope it's not another D600. But for me, it has a mirror, yawn, it has an optical finder, yawn again, 16mpix, I am asleep. To old school for even an old school person like myself.


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## goodguy (Nov 5, 2013)

One point everybody is missing here is since the rumours started on this camera there is a huge interest in it, for good or for bad there is a BUZZZ.
I never saw so many threads opened in such a short time over one camera.
Like it or not it seem to get people talking about Nikon and maybe this is something Nikon really needs, some attention.
If this camera will prove to be a hit I am sure Canon, Sony and Pentax will follow with their own FF retro cameras.
It will wake up the camera market that lately been hit by the cell phone.


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## fotofinish (Nov 5, 2013)

GDHLEWIS said:


> It is a thing of beauty there is no doubt about that. But DAMN what a pretty bugger it is.



Others of course might think its 'classically ugly'. I do and much prefer the look of the more rounded D800 etc. But each to his own and I agree that this thing will sell well, but even better if it were a grand less.


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## Garbz (Nov 6, 2013)

Man I must be getting old. I still don't see the appeal. For the same price the D800 is better in almost every aspect. If it were priced more aggressively maybe. 

gsgary are you somehow implying other camera's in the price range aren't proper? As for video, if you don't want it don't use it. I have a video mode I've never used, aside from 1 switch and 1 button you'd not know video mode was an option.


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## sleist (Nov 6, 2013)

It's a silly camera, but it's the cheapest option for having a D4 sensor - if that's important to you.
Other than that, it's very hard to justify the price tag.  There are better ways to spend $3000 that will actually result in better photos.


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## pixmedic (Nov 6, 2013)

sleist said:


> It's a silly camera, but it's the cheapest option for having a D4 sensor - if that's important to you.
> Other than that, it's very hard to justify the price tag.  There are better ways to spend $3000 that will actually result in better photos.



how do you know other cameras will produce better results? which cameras?
the Df has the D4 sensor with the D800 processor. its picture results should be pretty damn good. 
maybe there would some slight differences if you benchmarked them on DXOMark or something...
maybe the D800 would have a slightly higher number. 
but would you really see that difference if you put two pictures taken with both cameras side by side?
could you tell which camera took which picture?

I am interested to see what this camera will command on the used market in a few months. 
about $1k less, and it is very tempting. 
I think i would pick up a Df over a D610 if you get the same ISO performance of the D4. 
thats the test i would be really interested in seeing. how well it handles high ISO.


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## Dao (Nov 6, 2013)

I think this camera is not made to compete with the current D800, D4 nor the D600/D610.  There is a chance a wedding photographer will use his/her D4 work horses for the job.  But pick this one up for a family vacation for daily street shooting (Pair it with a 50mm prime).

I can see the Leica and Sony RX1 buyers checking out this camera.


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## sleist (Nov 6, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > It's a silly camera, but it's the cheapest option for having a D4 sensor - if that's important to you.
> ...



Who said anything about cameras?  If you have a FX body already, $3000 would probably be better spent elsewhere.


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## pixmedic (Nov 6, 2013)

sleist said:


> pixmedic said:
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the discussion is based on people that would be looking to buy this camera. 
maybe as a first camera, maybe as a second or third camera. who knows. 
but the premise of discussing this camera is whether or not it would be purchased as apposed to other available bodies.  
if you are not interested in buying a body (or another body) then this entire discussion on the camera is irrelevant. 
If you are referring to lenses and such, that too is irrelevant if someone is looking to buy a body.


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## sleist (Nov 6, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> sleist said:
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Gee - sorry for intruding on your thread.
How do you sit all day with that giant bug up your ass.

I'm done here.


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## pixmedic (Nov 6, 2013)

sleist said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > sleist said:
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your apology is well received, and you are graciously forgiven.


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## Aloicious (Nov 6, 2013)

I find it funny that when the D800 was announced we went though this same whining-fest when everyone was complaining about it having too many MP, and why in the world anyone would need all that when 12 or 16 does the job just fine. In fact I specifically remember people saying 'give me a D4 sensor in a smaller body'...but now that the d800 has been out for a while and several 24mp bodies....suddenly a high performance 16mp sensor 'isn't enough' and "who would buy it when you could get a d800 for a similar price" and "its ONLY 16mp!?!"....

I agree with Dao, this body is NOT competing with the D800/etc...it is in fact very complementary to it. I have a D800e already, and absolutely love it for some things, if I had to choose between a Df OR a D800/e, then yeah I'd take the D800, as the resolution is greatly beneficial for my wildlife work and other stuff, however I find I'm in other situations frequently that would be vastly benefited from less mp across the full frame (i.e. not in crop mode on the d800) and require more ISO performance in that same area, but without spending the $6k on a D4, and without wanting the size of the D4...I think the Df will be a incredible second body for me, and people who are in a situation similar. Perhaps I'm just too optimistic or something, but I don't quite understand why people will continually ***** and moan about something like a new camera body that may not meet their needs, because they can't fathom that other people may have different requirements and needs on a body. welcome to the internet I suppose. There will never be anything that will please everyone. 

I have NO desire for a D400, or any other crop sensor body, but I know plenty of people who have been waiting and waiting chomping at the bit for one. and quite honestly, I hope they do release one, and fairly soon too because I can see how it would benefit others....but for me, I'd rather have a D4 sensor in a smaller body, and if that body happens to look a little different (looks good IMO), then so be it. and like I said before, yeah there are compromises with some features, but nothing I can't deal with if it truly delivers D4 performance.


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## Derrel (Nov 6, 2013)

The Df seems like the D2h was at launch, or the D800, with lots of whining and moaning and "_in a world_" pipe dreams coming from all corners of the web, mostly from people who wanted a high-end camera and wanted it with a low,low price that was easily affordable, just another expense they could easily swallow on the credit card bill. In short, a lot of people wanted this to be a $1599 body. Remember, the Canon 5D premiered in 2006 at $3499, then was dropped to $3199, then after more than a year, was lowered to $2999. By the very END of its life, the original Canon 5D could be had for around $2,000 with rebates and an EPSON printer that one got free, and could sell for a few hundred dollars. In between the $3499 and the $2199 list prices, there were several rebates. Not price drops--but rebates. My, how much MORE money $3,499 was back in 2006--before the price of food, and gas, and everything, skyrocketed. Last week, I saw two used 5D's for sale in the case, at $595 for the lower priced one. In terms of image performance at 1600 and 3200 ISO, the original 5D was about the SAME as the Nikon D3 that premiered in 2007, which was also about the same as the Nikon D700 was in terms of image quality. 5D, D3, D700, all the same in image quality.

This all-new camera is priced right in line with the D700's introductory price, and is around half the price of the D3 at its introduction. The D2h was $3499 at intro, and then ONE NIGHT, Nikon opened the floodgates and dropped the price on D2Hs bodies to, what was it? $1999, to clear out the final batch of them! The D600 premiered at $2k, but then after a few months, Nikon gave away a FREE 24-85 AF-S Nikkor zoom lens with purchase of a D600 body! D600's last week were being sold as refurbished for $1349...basically $700 below intro price, in what, a year?

The D2x premiered at $4,999 in late 2004. I bought one in May, 2005, for full list price. Still have it. lt's now worth maybe $700, tops. I saw two D2h bodies at PPS 18 months ago for $195 each! That is a 10-fold reduction from the close-out price of $1999. The D3x premiered at $7999 in 2009, just like Canon's 1Ds Mark IV did. The D3x was dropped to $6700 a couple months back, and used ones now fetch $2500 to $3500, depending on where they are sold/bought.

So, yes, the Nikon Df is at $2,746.95 right now on pre-order. But I doubt the price will stay that high for its entire production run. I think it might sell a good number of units, at that price, just based on how well it shoots, and what it works with. I think Nikon deliberately went with the 16MP sensor because it has big pixels, and low pixel density, so the sensor can handle wide-angle lenses better, without needing super-trick offset microlenses and or software diffraction reduction and in-camera CA elimination in software, and just so the camera will not "need" to have the newest, best optics to make great images. I think the 16MP sensor they decided to use is probably going to work pretty well with a wide range of older lenses; not everybody can afford these new $2,499 70-200 VR Mk II lenses and so on. Now, here's a lens that I personally think will LOOK great and SHOOT great on a Df... Ohhh...did you see what I payed for this lens?


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## Aloicious (Nov 6, 2013)

I completely agree. I'd like to throw an old 105f2.5 ai or ais on it and have some fun


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## Garbz (Nov 7, 2013)

Not sure I would put it in the boat of the D800, that was mostly bitching about people who didn't realise that it essentially had the same pixel density they were already getting in their DX cameras. But I do agree with the D2h comment. This won't be a bad camera, I just don't understand how it fits or why someone would buy it in place of other options.


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## gsgary (Nov 7, 2013)

Garbz said:


> Man I must be getting old. I still don't see the appeal. For the same price the D800 is better in almost every aspect. If it were priced more aggressively maybe.
> 
> gsgary are you somehow implying other camera's in the price range aren't proper? As for video, if you don't want it don't use it. I have a video mode I've never used, aside from 1 switch and 1 button you'd not know video mode was an option.



For me the look of cameras has gone down hill since digital, and since getting 2 Leicas i don't want to use my Canon digital cameras, the onlt digital i will buy in the future will be a digital M 

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## djacobox372 (Nov 7, 2013)

gsgary said:


> For me the look of cameras has gone down hill since digital, and since getting 2 Leicas i don't want to use my Canon digital cameras, the onlt digital i will buy in the future will be a digital M
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2



It started before digital Nikon's last two pro film slrs look nearly identical to modern digital slrs.  Blame computer aided design not the switch to digital.


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## gsgary (Nov 8, 2013)

djacobox372 said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > For me the look of cameras has gone down hill since digital, and since getting 2 Leicas i don't want to use my Canon digital cameras, the onlt digital i will buy in the future will be a digital M
> ...



Shouldn't that be the other way round modern digital looks just like last slr's

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## TheFantasticG (Nov 8, 2013)

Posted the same thing in four different threads when you already answered your own question in the post itself.


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## SamSpade1941 (Nov 8, 2013)

I am wondering which kidney I will sell to buy the DF, its what I have been wanting in a DSLR from the beginning...


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

SamSpade1941 said:


> I am wondering which kidney I will sell to buy the DF, its what I have been wanting in a DSLR from the beginning...



Well probably both, your going to need a nice bag for it after all.  One thing though, if you go that route best get overnight shipping.. lol


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## Derrel (Nov 8, 2013)

Bjorn Rorslett, a noted Nikon expert, got to handle and shoot the Df at the official Nikon launch for the "Nikon Nordic" region in Europe. There's a 20-page thread over on Nikongear.com about the camera, and his impressions from actually SHOOTING the camera are sprinkled throughout the thread. I read through it last night...

According to Bjorn, with the Df he was able to accurately focus the 50mm f/1.2 Noct-Nikkor, as well as the 35mm f/1.4 manual focus lenses EASILY, and with a high "keeper" percentage, based on photos he actually shot. He figured that since the camera was allegedly designed to work well with manual focus lenses, that he should bring a few of his literally, hundreds, of lenses, to the official opening in his region. 

He mentions a few things, one of the most important being that this camera's viewfinder is MUCH BETTER than the one in the D800 or D800e, with better ability to see the entire viewfinder area edge-to-edge even while wearing his eyeglasses. It will be about two weeks until Nikon's Nordic office delivers his camera for review, but he was extremely pleased with the ability of the viewfinder and screen and eyepiece system to deliver a bight and crisp and easily-seen view, as well as the optimization efforts Nikon has made toward focusing this thing by hand-and-eye. In the thread are some mentions about possible prism coatings and optical modifications, the ocular lens of the eyepiece perhaps being designed with aspherical elements that might improve the view, and so on. He stated repeatedly and emphatically that the viewfinder image is BETTER than that of the D800 or D800e, and stated that it categorically is NOT the "same" viewfinder system as is used in the D4.

He stated that the camera's operation is very easy for a person who understands how the camera is designed. He used the phrase, the "operation is trivial", meaning very easy and straightforward.

Impressions of the Nikon Df - Editor's Forum - Nikongear.com


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## Aloicious (Nov 8, 2013)

I know of Borjn but I hadn't seen that thread, I'll have to read through it.


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## sashbar (Nov 8, 2013)

UK price for the 50 mm kit ( only available option) is £2749.99 ($ 4400)


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## Garbz (Nov 8, 2013)

djacobox372 said:


> It started before digital Nikon's last two pro film slrs look nearly identical to modern digital slrs.  Blame computer aided design not the switch to digital.



I gladly blame CAD. The modern camera is so much more comfortable to hold for long periods of time than their ancestors. I'm not one for form over function. I look at the bottom of this camera and I not so fondly remember the red marks I got on the bottom of my hand when using the Nikon FE without the motor drive. Usually that's the only reason I had the motor drive, so my camera had an actual handle. 



SamSpade1941 said:


> I am wondering which kidney I will sell to buy the DF, its what I have been wanting in a DSLR from the beginning...



Please help me understand. What in this camera has such appeal?



Derrel said:


> He stated that the camera's operation is very easy for a person who understands how the camera is designed. He used the phrase, the "operation is trivial", meaning very easy and straightforward.



I wonder if this is a generation thing. I agree with him. The old days of every option on the camera on a click wheel at the top were fantastic for understanding. But I wonder how the newer generation who grew up on "hold button and turn one of 2 wheels" will take to this design.


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

Garbz said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> > It started before digital Nikon's last two pro film slrs look nearly identical to modern digital slrs.  Blame computer aided design not the switch to digital.
> ...



If they can figure out you have to press up down up down left right right left ctrl button up to tear a guy's spine out, I think they'll somehow be able to master the dial system.. lol


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## SamSpade1941 (Nov 8, 2013)

Garbz said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> > It started before digital Nikon's last two pro film slrs look nearly identical to modern digital slrs.  Blame computer aided design not the switch to digital.
> ...



I will tell why this camera has such appeal, I grew up shooting an F, then F2 and FM/FM2. I love the look and feel , the heft and the control layout. I said for years on end that if Nikon brought a camera that had that feel and look but was a DSLR it would be a success and I predict this to be. There are many such as myself who have learned to use the newer system and yes the thumb wheels have their advantages, but still I love being able to actually operate a shutter speed knob and manipulate the aperture ring on a lens. Is it a better system ? No just different and one I am very familiar with, plus all the other modes are there. So if program is needed by all means use it.  The DF most certainly fills a hole in the market that has been missing , the fact it will work better with AI S lenses is just icing on the cake.


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## TheFantasticG (Nov 8, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> If they can figure out you have to press up down up down left right right left ctrl button up to tear a guy's spine out, I think they'll somehow be able to master the dial system.. lol



No sir, it's: up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, select, start before the logo loads. +30 lives FTW


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## robbins.photo (Nov 8, 2013)

TheFantasticG said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > If they can figure out you have to press up down up down left right right left ctrl button up to tear a guy's spine out, I think they'll somehow be able to master the dial system.. lol
> ...



Lol.. well when I have to tear a guy's spine out I do it the old school way..


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