# How much do you charge for digital copies?



## sactown024

I am building my website pricing page and most packages consist of 25 high-res digital copies. I was going to give te option to buy additional prints but not sure how much I should be charging. 

anyone sell digital copies and what do you charge?


----------



## tirediron

Pricing is NOT something for which you just pick a number out of the air because it "seems" right.  Even if you're doing this as a weekend business, you need to do it correctly.  First, determine your cost of going business for one hour.  That is:  Add up all of the factors, including fuel, maintenance & insurance on your car, wear & tear on equipment, etc, etc, etc and come up with a minimum per-hour figure, and base all of your pricing on that.  

Also, be careful of promising too many images.  25 good images from a one-hour portrait session is a LOT.  On my biggest portrait package (An eight-hour, $1200 package which I never expect to sell) I only offer UP TO 40 images, and on my one hour, I offer UP TO six.  Note the "UP TO".  That's important.  If you tell me up front that I'm going to get 25 images, and I only like 20, we're going to have a problem.  (My new retail pricing pages are under construction here )

All of that relates to retail photography.  Commercial is a whole different animal.  For commercial work, I normally bill by the hour ($100) and license costs for images vary widely depending on size, type, and duration of use, as well as exclusivity.


----------



## Big Mike

Digital files are practically free...but the limited copyright allowing them to make/order prints is what will cost them.


----------



## KmH

I charged $1200 for 25 high resolution digital files ($48 per file), and the use license set a maximum print size of 8x10 for any of the images.
They could only get wall sized prints through me.

Individual 8x10 prints on Kodak Endura archival paper were $80 each. Metallic paper and other substrates cost more.


----------



## MLeeK

OK... lets just assume that you are doing research instead of posting a pricing question... You know how pricing questions go around here! I am sure this one will go south anyway, but we can hope! LOL!

I only sell digital files AFTER they've ordered prints. I have set my pricing up so that I know they are getting prints no matter what-the minimum session fee is a print credit. My print pricing is set up so that I get my minimum in profit no matter what. 
 Depending on the amount of the order I will throw in the digi of the images they ordered. I always throw in a low-res, discreetly watermarked disk of images and a slide show for internet use. They get the full res slide show from their proofing session as well.
If the order is over $500 the digis will cost you $25 each, sized 8x10 with unlimited print release that states MPix on it. I am sure other places print it, but I TRY to control quality as much as I can. 
If the order is over 1000 digi's are $10 each and if the order is over $1500 I throw in the disk of digi's with the release free. 
Being the big sucker that I am and that I follow the "give it away" philosophy I OFTEN throw the digi's in once i hit the $500 mark "as a favor" because I just "loved" the client. Great for PR, marketing and repeat business!


----------



## KmH

MLeek mentions a  point I left out regarding my charge for digital files.

Customers had to meet a minimum purchase amount before they earned the right to buy digital files.

You will not be able to develop a money making business if you treat/price photos as a commodity. Portrait/retail photographs are a luxury item and should be marked and sold as such if your business is run based on a profit motive.

One of the most difficult, least successful marketing tasks a business can undertake is raising prices. When a business raises it's prices, the business has to develop a new customer base.
Making new customers is about 10x more expensive than retaining existing customers.


----------



## sactown024

How do you license the photos? is that something that needs to be taken care of by a lawyer? Just cause you say you can only print up to a 8x10 and everything else must go through me how is that going to to stop someone? do you just limit the file size so it will look like **** after you go above 8x10?


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> How do you license the photos? is that something that needs to be taken care of by a lawyer? Just cause you say you can only print up to a 8x10 and everything else must go through me how is that going to to stop someone? do you just limit the file size so it will look like **** after you go above 8x10?



Wal Mart is very careful about asking you for your release from any image that looks like it's professional. EVERY lab should be and they're getting better but, there are those that won't and will just print it. 
A release is a written, signed document that states what the client can do and not do with their images. It will include the photographer's infomation, the file names/numbers and the date they were created, the release information detailing what can and can't be done with the images and the photographer's signature. 
I give it to the client in both print form and on their disk. The disk contains a PDF of the release as well as an image file so if they go to have prints made and are asked for their release the lab or store can pull it up either way.

I also include the release information in the exif data of my images.

My images are cropped to 8x10 at 300PPI. Will it look like crap at a  larger size-depends on HOW larger and how the image is viewed. If the  lab is doing it's job, they will not print larger.

I have a lawyer who has checked all of my legal documents from contracts to releases, but releases are something that don't really need to be reviewed. Contracts are something you should be asking about!! As well as Model Releases. You should have one of both of those for every session you are shooting. They can be combined into one document, but you NEED to have them.


----------



## sactown024

KmH said:


> I charged $1200 for 25 high resolution digital files ($48 per file), and the use license set a maximum print size of 8x10 for any of the images.
> They could only get wall sized prints through me.
> 
> Individual 8x10 prints on Kodak Endura archival paper were $80 each. Metallic paper and other substrates cost more.



8x10 $80 each? what? WHCC sells them for $6 on that paper, are you saying thats your price?


----------



## sactown024

MLeeK said:


> sactown024 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you license the photos? is that something that needs to be taken care of by a lawyer? Just cause you say you can only print up to a 8x10 and everything else must go through me how is that going to to stop someone? do you just limit the file size so it will look like **** after you go above 8x10?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wal Mart is very careful about asking you for your release from any image that looks like it's professional. EVERY lab should be and they're getting better but, there are those that won't and will just print it.
> A release is a written, signed document that states what the client can do and not do with their images. It will include the photographer's infomation, the file names/numbers and the date they were created, the release information detailing what can and can't be done with the images and the photographer's signature.
> I give it to the client in both print form and on their disk. The disk contains a PDF of the release as well as an image file so if they go to have prints made and are asked for their release the lab or store can pull it up either way.
> 
> I also include the release information in the exif data of my images.
> 
> My images are cropped to 8x10 at 300PPI. Will it look like crap at a larger size-depends on HOW larger and how the image is viewed. If the lab is doing it's job, they will not print larger.
Click to expand...


or couldnt they just drag and drop the images onto a flash drive or another dvd and dont put the pdf on there>?


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sactown024 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you license the photos? is that something that needs to be taken care of by a lawyer? Just cause you say you can only print up to a 8x10 and everything else must go through me how is that going to to stop someone? do you just limit the file size so it will look like **** after you go above 8x10?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wal Mart is very careful about asking you for your release from any image that looks like it's professional. EVERY lab should be and they're getting better but, there are those that won't and will just print it.
> A release is a written, signed document that states what the client can do and not do with their images. It will include the photographer's infomation, the file names/numbers and the date they were created, the release information detailing what can and can't be done with the images and the photographer's signature.
> I give it to the client in both print form and on their disk. The disk contains a PDF of the release as well as an image file so if they go to have prints made and are asked for their release the lab or store can pull it up either way.
> 
> I also include the release information in the exif data of my images.
> 
> My images are cropped to 8x10 at 300PPI. Will it look like crap at a larger size-depends on HOW larger and how the image is viewed. If the lab is doing it's job, they will not print larger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> or couldnt they just drag and drop the images onto a flash drive or another dvd and dont put the pdf on there>?
Click to expand...

Sure. If they do that any lab SHOULD ask for the release and then they'd have to go get it to be printed. 
Prints are going to happen from any digi file you give out and they're going to happen outside of the relase you provide. You are going to have people who print your facebook images to a 16x20 and if/when you see it you are going to gasp in shock. Especially in the cheap market.


----------



## sactown024

the way I have my pricing set up is packages as in 

10 digi copies and a 16x24 canvas print for $XXX 

is that a bad way to do it? should I just charge a flat hourly rate and then try to make all the money with the photos?


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I charged $1200 for 25 high resolution digital files ($48 per file), and the use license set a maximum print size of 8x10 for any of the images.
> They could only get wall sized prints through me.
> 
> Individual 8x10 prints on Kodak Endura archival paper were $80 each. Metallic paper and other substrates cost more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8x10 $80 each? what? WHCC sells them for $6 on that paper, are you saying thats your price?
Click to expand...

You are missing the artistic talent part of it. WHCC sells the PAPER  it's printed on. YOU Have to provide the image. $6 is the printing and  paper fee. NOT the cost or price of THE IMAGE. Go ahead and buy the  printing and paper without the image... What do you have?

On top of that-I don't want to sell 8x10's. They are crap prints in the big scheme of things. I want to sell WALL sized prints. 8x10's are just add on's. Like wallets. You are still in the wal mart mentality here. Stop thinking with YOUR wallet and start thinking with a potential client's wallet. Several times people have said to you that photography is a LUXURY ITEM. It is purchased by those who value that luxury item. Think with THEIR wallet.


----------



## tirediron

sactown024 said:


> 8x10 $80 each? what? WHCC sells them for $6 on that paper, are you saying thats your price?


There are other factors that come into play, one being the photographer's cost to have the print made.  That varies by region; for instance:  My cost on an 8x10 from my lab is a little under $12.  I add 40% and round out to an even $18.  There's also the time, effort and quality that go into making the image.  The most important one however is, what cost the market will bear.  In my area, retail photography will not support $80 8x10s, at least not in general.  There are one or two who have the reputation which allows them to charge like that, but for the most part, prices are considerably lower.


----------



## KmH

sactown024 said:


> 8x10 $80 each? what? WHCC sells them for $6 on that paper, are you saying thats your price?


WHCC only sells a sheet of paper that has a bit of ink or light sensitive emulsion on it. WHCC does not provide the image they print.

That is the difference between the $6, and the $80 I charged - what I charge for the image I made printed 8x10.
The same image printed 16x20 was $300.


----------



## sactown024

whats the best way to export the photos if I want to govern them up to 8x10? 

thanks guys this is really helping, already adjusted my price substantially


----------



## KmH

Most DSLR cameras make photos that have a 3:2 aspect ratio (4x6, 8x12).

An 8x10 has a 5:4 aspect ratio (4x5). So a 3:2 photo would have to be cropped to print as a 5:4 aspect ratio 8x10.

At any rate, print size is a function of the image pixel dimensions and the PPI assigned to the image.

If the photo has pixel dimensions of 3000x2000 pixels, at the math shows that at 100 PPI it will be a 30" x 20" print, and the same 3000x2000 pixel image at 200 PPI it will be a 15"x10" print.


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> the way I have my pricing set up is packages as in
> 
> 10 digi copies and a 16x24 canvas print for $XXX
> 
> is that a bad way to do it? should I just charge a flat hourly rate and then try to make all the money with the photos?


It's one way this is my way of thinking on what you are doing with this package:
That's fine if it works for you. Personally I DO NOT _want_ to sell digi files for many reasons.
1. Print quality control. They are GOING to print at the Wal Mart Kiosk. Go have some of your prints made at the Kiosk. Then order the exact same digi file in the exact same size from your lab. You'll be mortified. 
2. Profit. Selling digi files shoots your profitability right into the toilet. You give it away. If you are selling the digi's primarily your pricing should compensate for that. You are selling 10 digi's with a small canvas for we'll say $250. Take out CODB (we'll stay cheap) $100 and the price of the canvas $90 and you have just made a whopping $110. Where as if they wanted prints from say 4 of those files they could have purchased another couple hundred bucks worth of profit to you. With your $75 fee and the $110 profit you are making probably about $minimum wage.
3. Packages rarely fit. Well, yours do. they get it all and a canvas to boot. 
4. Selling the digi's like that devalues YOUR work and puts the value on the $2 print they can get from a lab or store. You just put all of your talent and work into $100. Damn you're cheap! My education alone is worth more than $185 and my CODB is far more than $50. I'd suspect yours is also. Probably more in the $150-200 range. 
5. Read this post http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/304517-uh-well-just-read-i-cant-title-one.html
Those are only the big things that come to mind right this second. 

Options: 
Everyone's pricing structure is done to fit them. Mine won't fit you, nor will anyone else's. It's YOUR business. You have to find what works for you. However, there are some basic things that go into figuring  your price-no matter how you structure it.
1. CODB (cost of doing business.) For me that does not include my time or talent, just my cold hard costs. HERE is a good CODB calculator for photographers. 
If you have a zero in any field you need to REALLY ask yourself what's wrong and why. For your office/studio etc there really is a cost there even if you are working out of your home. If you didn't have that home, desk, corner, computer, etc you couldn't do what you do. It's taking up space in your home that could go to something else if you weren't doing this. If you are using  your personal phone, computer, internet, VEHICLE etc there really is a business cost to that. If you didn't have them, could you do the business as you are now? Nope. Yes, you have already paid for your camera so it's not an expense-wrong. You need to be paid back by the business for that expense AND you need to be putting aside $ for the eventual need to get a new camera, the equipment that you will need to purchase, etc. This camera, computer, software, etc is not going to last forever. You WILL have to purchase another, so that needs to be considered. 
2. COG-Tammy explains the complexity of cost of goods better than I do on a whole. I figure it simply at first without any charge for my time or talent. The cost of printing, shipping, boxing, etc. Cold hard invoices from suppliers. It SHOULD include the price of the image, but that gets too complicated for me to figure and I chose to simplify it by figuring the cost of the image into my time.
3. YOUR time. Included in that is the hourly-which you have to have a good grasp on how much time goes into this OTHER than the shoot. That includes the time you spend getting your education, creating your flyers, contracts... everything you create, taking calls, answering emails, taking care of ANYTHING that is related to how you are going to arrive at a photograph. Your session is only maybe an hour, but you have drive time to get there and back, the time to  upload and sort, processing, proofing, final touching, prepping for and ordering, receiving, sorting, delivering, archiving, maintaining your computer files, maintaining your accounting files... EVERYTHING!!! 
What is your time worth? I hope to God it's more than minimum wage or you might be better off going to Wal Mart and being a greeter. Or working in PictureMe! MUCH easier! You are a professional businessman as well as a professional photographer. It would not be unrealistic for you to throw out $50 an hour.***REMEMBER*** You have to pay ALL of your taxes and benefits out of that $50. Medicare, FICA, Social Security, State, insurance and any other benefits that would be paid by the employer!!! So... $50 an hour is now down to a net of somewhere about $25 if you are paying your own insurance and benefits that an employer would offer. 

I mentioned education in there-that is an investment that will be paid to you over time. Like when a teacher goes to college to get their teaching certificate. They don't immediately get paid back for that when they land a teaching job. Think about it as if you were taking out a student loan for that time. We'll say an associates degree costs you $20,000 and that's the amount of education you want to equate with your work. How long do you think it will take to pay that back? (off topic-if it's a real student loan? probably till you are 96!) What I am getting at with education is to spread the initial huge hunk of education out over time to get paid back. You will also have continuing education every year for the rest of your life. For example my push to go to WPPI. 

All of that combined is what you HAVE to make to break even. You must be paid for your time, you must pay for the costs of doing this business. I MUST make a minimum of $350 off of a session to break even and pay myself my minimum. PROFITABILITY is above and beyond that. I am not in this business to make my absolute minimum, I am in business to profit and


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> whats the best way to export the photos if I want to govern them up to 8x10?
> 
> thanks guys this is really helping, already adjusted my price substantially


Size to 8x10, 300PPI. Include a release that states it. Include that in your exif data. Beyond that? You're selling digi's.* It's out of your control.* (that'd be reason #6 for why not to sell digi's. which should probably be bumped up to #1. It's out of your control.)


----------



## sactown024

so let me make sure I have this under control, how is this pricing setup?

$250 (?) for 60 minutes of shooting and 10 digital copies printable up to 8x10

$xxx (depending on what size and style)  for additional wall size prints which

Digital copies charged by spending limit, $500 in prints = $20 digi copies (only photos they have paid for prints) printable up to 8x10
                                                           $1000 in prints = $10 digi copies ("   ")


----------



## sactown024

holy **** Leek, thanks!!

can you just fly to NH and i can pay you to be my consultant?


----------



## panblue

MLeeK said:


> On top of that-I don't want to sell 8x10's. They are crap prints in the big scheme of things. I want to sell WALL sized prints.



How much are your wall size prints?


----------



## sactown024

Looksing at WHCC the lab i use they charge $104 for a 16x24 canvas gallery wrap..... what is the typical up charge on this? 100%?


----------



## panblue

sactown024, what are your pictures of?


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> Looksing at WHCC the lab i use they charge $104 for a 16x24 canvas gallery wrap..... what is the typical up charge on this? 100%?



That too is complicated, Please re-read post #18. It's not a mark up %.
I also recommend using SimplyCanvas for high quality archival canvas The price sounds high, but I have never ordered canvases from the same lab I get other prints from. For archival, 100 year quality canvases I use SimplyCanvas. For my cheap as hell canvas (I can't SEE a difference in them) I use CGProPrints. The high end ones have a 100 year guarantee. The others do not. I had used Canvas On Demand for my cheap stuff, but CGPro is much better quality at a _*much*_ lower price.


----------



## MLeeK

panblue said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> On top of that-I don't want to sell 8x10's. They are crap prints in the big scheme of things. I want to sell WALL sized prints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much are your wall size prints?
Click to expand...

I have cheap stuff starting at $300 and the sky is the limit. I am trying to aim at producing a custom designed piece that is a custom quote. That includes the print/canvas/watercolor/etc, framed and to fit a specific space in the home. For a family or portrait sitting that is along that line I try not to even talk anything smaller than 20" or that isn't custom fit. 
Now Senior portraits are another story-8x10's and prints under 20" are a staple there. I have a full pricing list that starts at $40 FULL RETAIL for an 8x10. Which I actually sell for $30. 

If I weren't selling the whole session as a print credit my price would then be $20 selling point and $30 Full retail. I've found that if they get a FULL print credit they think they're getting the sitting for free. I make it in the extra $10 or so charged on every print. That's MY way... Everyone has their own pricing structure and most use a sitting fee and cheaper prints to cover their bases. That works well too!


----------



## panblue

OK..thanks



MLeeK said:


> panblue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> On top of that-I don't want to sell 8x10's. They are crap prints in the big scheme of things. I want to sell WALL sized prints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much are your wall size prints?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have cheap stuff starting at $300 and the sky is the limit. I am trying to aim at producing a custom designed piece that is a custom quote. That includes the print/canvas/watercolor/etc, framed and to fit a specific space in the home. For a family or portrait sitting that is along that line I try not to even talk anything smaller than 20" or that isn't custom fit.
> Now Senior portraits are another story-8x10's and prints under 20" are a staple there. I have a full pricing list that starts at $40 FULL RETAIL for an 8x10. Which I actually sell for $30.
> 
> If I weren't selling the whole session as a print credit my price would then be $20 selling point and $30 Full retail. I've found that if they get a FULL print credit they think they're getting the sitting for free. I make it in the extra $10 or so charged on every print. That's MY way... Everyone has their own pricing structure and most use a sitting fee and cheaper prints to cover their bases. That works well too!
Click to expand...


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> so let me make sure I have this under control, how is this pricing setup?
> 
> $250 (?) for 60 minutes of shooting and 10 digital copies printable up to 8x10
> 
> $xxx (depending on what size and style)  for additional wall size prints which
> 
> Digital copies charged by spending limit, $500 in prints = $20 digi copies (only photos they have paid for prints) printable up to 8x10
> $1000 in prints = $10 digi copies ("   ")


You have kind of confused me there. First you say $250 for the session AND the digi's up to 8x10. ThEN you say digital copies according to what they spend... Which is it? What are you selling? Prints or digi's? There are photographers who survive as digi sellers only. It works for them and it could be the way you want/need to go. What I do is not right for everyone. You have to find YOUR price and YOUR comfort zone. Just as you do that make SURE you are thinking about what you want to be ultimately. 

Here is an exercise that should happen as a part of your business plan: Have the vision!! Invision yourself in business at my level or panblue's level or... This is your DREAM. What are you doing? What are you selling? What kind of things are you shooting? How much are you making? How much are you working? When people hear Sactown024's photography what do they immediately think? This is the IDEAL. Include the Who, What, When, Why, Where and How of that vision. 

Then put it away in the back of the binder for your business plan. Probably should even give it a page protector cuz you are going to have it for years to come. 

EVERY. SINGLE. THING. YOU. DO has to be done with that goal in mind.


----------



## sactown024

I'm just going by what I got from your post.you said if the customer spends at least "x" dollars then the digitalis are $20 but if they spend "xx" dollars  then they're only $10.

What do you mean by print credit?


----------



## MLeeK

sactown024 said:


> I'm just going by what I got from your post.you said if the customer spends at least "x" dollars then the digitalis are $20 but if they spend "xx" dollars  then they're only $10.
> 
> What do you mean by print credit?


If they pay me a $250 session fee they then have $250 credit to order with. If they pay me a $500 session fee they have $500 in credit to order with. 
For family artwork sessions I start at $500 and for Seniors I start at $250. 
I do a day of headshot sessions for seniors and that's $50 15 minute slots. The file gets sent to their school and they get two prints out of the deal. It's a hell of a bargain for the kids who have very little. Usually it's the third weekend after school goes back. It's taken off like mad in the past two years. 
It's X dollars in printed products before they have the option to purchase a digital image. IF they spend $500 they THEN can buy the digi's for an additional $20 for each one. So if they want 10 digi's it's either $700 or it's $500 in products and $200 for the digi's.


----------



## KmH

A retail photography use license is often also called a 'Print Release'. Commercial photography use licenses have more limitations.

Here is an example for retail photography:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Print Release - Use License*

All images © 2012 {name or studio here}, All Rights Reserved. This Use License shall be governed by the laws of the State of _________.

I, [name or studio here], as copyright owner of these images, grant a lifetime, personal, non-commercial use license to ____________________and their immediate family to print or have printed (no larger than (whatever size, if any)) reproductions of these images for display in their home and workplace only.

*Online Use*

{name or studio here} has provided web sized and watermarked images for exclusive use on social networking web sites that are not owned by ____________________ and their immediate family. No other online use is granted. Removal of the watermark from these web sized images, or any other violation of any of the other terms, will constitute a breach of this entire Print Release &#8211; Use License, rendering it null and void in its entirety.

*Copyright Information*

Please remember that because these images are protected by Federal Copyright laws they may not be altered, copied, transmitted or used in any way not stipulated above without prior written consent of the copyright owner, {name or studio here}.
These images may not be entered in any photography or other competition or contest without the expressed written consent of [name or studio here]. Commercial use of the images is prohibited.
No waiver by either party of any of the terms or conditions of this license shall be deemed or construed to be a waiver of such term or condition for the future, or of any subsequent breach thereof. Waivers are only applicable when they are written. There will be no verbal waivers to this agreement.

The Photographer hereby warrants that he (or she) is the sole creator of these images and owns all rights granted by law.

[Name or studio here]
Address:
City, State:
Phone:
Email:
Authorized Signature:


----------



## sactown024

I like that Leek! 

i guess i have a few options, I am reading an article now about pricing also. Not sure if I want to go the print credit way or a base price and then sell the digitals and wall size prints

i really like the senior pricing setup you have


----------



## sxesweets

A lot of great knowledge shared here... Mind sharing a link to the article you are reading?


----------



## ghache

Best Business Practices for Photographers by John Harrington

thats all i have to say. buy it, read it


----------

