# How low can you go to make money?



## tecboy (May 22, 2017)

I understand you charge more to the clients to help pay off the photography equipment and buy new equipment in case it will fail.  In my area, there are few small photography businesses.  Some post the advertisement on the internet, "A very professional service at affordable prices."  Or, "All photographs are used in professional dslr at very low prices."  I wish they stop using the word "professional."  It is very misleading.


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## Gary A. (May 22, 2017)

Unfortunately with photography, 'Professional' is an adjective not a certification of achievement. Fortunately, a website is pretty easy to view in order to ascertain one's credibility.


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## tirediron (May 22, 2017)

And, I would venture to guess, most, if not all of them are NOT actually making money.


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## vintagesnaps (May 22, 2017)

It is misleading in a way - it's so easy for anyone to claim on whatever social media site that they're a professional anything. There have already been stories of people experiencing things like paying a so called photographer who sends them a CD of awful photos then disappears. Eventually more people might realize what they'll get for cheap or free and budget for a decent photographer. But sometimes it seems things can get worse before they get better. 

I know PPA already has its own system and ASMP has talked about working with other pro organizations toward some type of credential or certificate for working pro photographers. With PPA their member photographers can display on their websites that they've achieved a certain status of demonstrating skills at a high level. I hope the photographer organizations will continue to work on developing something for pros to show that they are actually pros and clients can expect good quality products and services from them.


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## vintagesnaps (May 22, 2017)

You're probably right John. I'm on another forum where people have been on there talking about going into business and most don't seem to know enough about what they're doing. Already (within a year or so) they're on now with one problem after another... I don't think they'll last too much longer before they're done with it. I think it'll take time for all the misguided people with cameras to realize it's necessary to have skills and get good at something and learn how to run a business to be successful at it. Or they'll find it's just more trouble than it's worth and move on to something else.


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## KmH (May 22, 2017)

tecboy said:


> How low can you go to make money?


No business 'makes money' until they have enough revenue coming in to cover their cost of doing business (CODB) and their cost of goods sold (COGS) - Business 101.

A business owner able to keep their CODB & COGS low doesn't need as much revenue to 'make money'. Which is why having business skills is more important than having photography skills if you want to be in the business of doing photography.

As John alludes to most retail photography businesses today don't make any money and only stay open because the business is supported financially with other income, most often the income a spouse makes or that the photographer makes from a full time job unrelated to doing photography.
Those photography 'businesses' supported with other income are amateur hobby businesses, regardless what their advertising may say.
Also most of those hobby businesses don't have any clue what their CODB or COGS actually are, so they don't understand why it is they don't make money.

Definitions of professional:
Definition of PROFESSIONAL


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## astroNikon (May 22, 2017)

Technically to be profitable your revenue has to be above all expenses.  Whether this includes or excludes salary is another thing altogether as most small businesses within the first few years don't have enough revenue to cover actual salary costs when total time is taken into consideration.

It can be argued you're a "professional" once you start taking money for what you do.

I would love to see some statistic of "xx percentage of new photography companies only last 2 years" or whatever.   So many bad stories out there I'm sure there's tons more that try it a few times then give up as "customers" don't have the same perception of "family" to the quality of the images.


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## Designer (May 22, 2017)

tecboy said:


> I understand you charge more to the clients to help pay off the photography equipment and buy new equipment in case it will fail.


That's an overly-simplistic way to look at it.  The cost of doing business should include equipment replacement costs as well as everything else that the CODB includes.


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## 480sparky (May 22, 2017)

CODB + $0.01 = making money.

Unfortunately,  that doesn't mean _staying in business_.


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## MSnowy (May 22, 2017)

I would guess most of these are parts of family business. Most often in these type of business arrangements one spouses income in another profession helps to support and offset the CODB of the other spouses photography profession.


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## nerwin (May 23, 2017)

I have a slight rant.

I don't know how many articles I have read that say "you can't be a photographer until your photography has made you money" - "if you don't, you're just another guy with a camera". I find that complete and utter BS.

So basically, you can't be a photographer if you just love the art form? You're just another guy with a camera.

I completely understand that people need to make money, especially to provide for their family. I have no problems with that, but why not put some heart and soul into it, you know? Instead of just pocketing the money. For example, the two photographers my cousin hired for their wedding were probably some of the worst wedding photos I have seen. They ended up using a lot of my photos haha because I wasn't trying to deceive them to just collect a paycheck.

In my personal opinion, I believe your work should stand for it self. I don't market myself at all, I'm not that good at photography. Sure, I've sold some prints, had photos on TV and in magazines. I've won some photo contests but that by NO means makes me a professional. I'll NEVER market myself as a professional photographer even I was a famous wedding photographer which I'll never be, because weddings make me puke. Haha.


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## Derrel (May 23, 2017)

Some fantastic responses in this thread. KmH nailed it! 480sparky made me laugh.Designer had a good point. I liked Nerwin's slight rant.


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## pendennis (May 23, 2017)

nerwin said:


> I have a slight rant.
> 
> I don't know how many articles I have read that say "you can't be a photographer until your photography has made you money" - "if you don't, you're just another guy with a camera". I find that complete and utter BS.
> 
> ...



There are millions of "real" photographers out there who aren't "professionals".  They follow their love of the art, and aren't cashing a check when their work is finished.

I worked professionally for a number of years, and I *never* started a project (portrait, wedding, etc.) where my heart and soul weren't in it.  I never "mailed it in", and no photographer I've ever known that was dedicated ever did so, either.  The joy of seeing a client smile when viewing my work made me know I did it right.  I also still believe in the "rule of ten"; that is, your best clients tell ten people just how good you are, and they tell ten more...

To be a professional, you have to be a business person; have a good business plan; be a "people person"; and understand that your maximum effort every day is what will help you be successful.

Collecting a check was always secondary.  But that's what your occupation should be; something you would do for free, but get paid.


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## nerwin (May 23, 2017)

pendennis said:


> There are millions of "real" photographers out there who aren't "professionals".  They follow their love of the art, and aren't cashing a check when their work is finished.
> 
> I worked professionally for a number of years, and I *never* started a project (portrait, wedding, etc.) where my heart and soul weren't in it.  I never "mailed it in", and no photographer I've ever known that was dedicated ever did so, either.  The joy of seeing a client smile when viewing my work made me know I did it right.  I also still believe in the "rule of ten"; that is, your best clients tell ten people just how good you are, and they tell ten more...
> 
> ...



I don't have clients but sometimes my photos do put a smile on people's faces and so I completely understand the feeling you get when someone smiles viewing your work, its a good feeling. It absolutely makes you feel like you did something right. 

But I've come across numerous so-called photographers who advertise like crazy on FB that they professionals and have ridiculous "photo packages" and produce half-assed work to simply collect a paycheck and I personally don't believe that is right. 

My cousin who got married asked me to edit the photographers photos because they liked my style in which I thought was weird because I didn't know I even had a style. But they decided not to because the photos weren't even worth my time. To make it worse, they all shot in jpeg and looked like they used snapseed to process them. I felt bad for them...but honestly, it's partly their fault for hiring cheap photographers.


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## smoke665 (May 23, 2017)

tirediron said:


> And, I would venture to guess, most, if not all of them are NOT actually making money.



Seems to me that you need to define definition of "in business", not "professional".  An attorney who provides free or low cost legal advise for those who can't afford it, is still a "professional", but obviously he can't pay the bills and support his family doing it.  In photography you have a number of hobbyists who have visions of $$$$$ as a paid professional, but no clue as to what it takes to run any successful business. The IRS provides a pretty comprehensive definition of a business vs hobby. Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions


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## limr (May 23, 2017)

I dunno, I just see a lot of dead horses in this thread.


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## 480sparky (May 23, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> ..... An attorney who provides free or low cost legal advise for those who can't afford it, is still a "professional", but obviously he can't pay the bills and support his family doing it...........



One absolutely can do so.  And there's two methods one can utilize.  One is called a _Loss Leader_. You lose money on the up-front work in hopes the person will come back later and pay full price the next time.

The other is _Pro Bono_.  You provide the services for free for those who cannot afford it, while marking up the cost to those who can to cover it.

Of course, you can't stay in business working for free (or at a loss) all the time.  You still need profitable jobs to come along.


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## smoke665 (May 23, 2017)

480sparky said:


> One absolutely can do so.



?????? Not sure what you're disagreeing with or if you are, because it seems we are saying the same thing. The use of marketing methods doesn't define if you are a business or a hobby. The ability to make a profit (The IRS presumes that an activity is carried on for profit if it makes a profit during at least three of the last five tax years, including the current year), is necessary to be defined as a business, otherwise it's a hobby.


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## 480sparky (May 23, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > One absolutely can do so.
> ...



Just clarifying a generalization.


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## waday (May 23, 2017)

480sparky said:


> The other is _Pro Bono_. You provide the services for free for those who cannot afford it, while marking up the cost to those who can to cover it.


One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.


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## smoke665 (May 23, 2017)

480sparky said:


> Just clarifying a generalization.



Ok. I think your earlier post about profit being equal to $.01 is more profound then many realize. According to IRS rules, a penny profit qualifies as a business and allows you to deduct all your expenses. If you're only interest is to "pay for your toys", then only doing enough "paid work" to put you over break even is great way to do it. I know several wood turners, carvers, craftsmen, painters, etc. that do this. They have other incomes that pay the bills. This is why my first post said it's more important to define the business. So the answer to the question "how low can you go" depends on your definition of the business model.


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## tecboy (May 23, 2017)

I met a photographer for this website.  I don't mind being his second shooter.  About | Foggy Bay Photos


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## table1349 (May 23, 2017)

Professional and photographer in the same sentence means zero, zip, zilch, nada.  Accomplished and photographer on the other hand does.  The sad thing is many of the accomplished photographers have no business sense.  It is the much rarer, elusive accomplished photographer that does understand business that survives for any discernible amount of time in the business world.


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## smoke665 (May 23, 2017)

gryphonslair99 said:


> It is the much rarer, elusive accomplished photographer that does understand business that survives for any discernible amount of time in the business world.



IMO this applies to all business enterprises. In transportation after deregulation anyone with a few thousand dollars for an old truck,trailer and insurance premium could get an authority for hire for $300, and start competing with companies that had a large asset investment. Unfortunately there were willing customers in the form of brokers who would often cut the rates below break even, because they knew these suckers with no knowledge would take them until losses forced them out, and there were always new ones starting up. My cousin and her husband were recently forced to sell their large machine business because the number of little shops with a couple tools and foreign competition cut the margins so thin, they couldn't compete. Sadly many of those little shops have also now gone away.


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## 480sparky (May 23, 2017)

waday said:


> One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.



Which still, unfortunately, costs money.  And that money has to come from somewhere.  Either in the form of increasing the cost to other customers, or choosing to live under a bridge and eat ramen noodles every day.


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## waday (May 23, 2017)

480sparky said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > One doesn't necessarily need to mark up other costs to cover pro bono work; one can simply do it as a volunteer for the public good.
> ...


The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good. All volunteer work costs time, effort, and yes, sometimes, money, but believe it or not, some people enjoy giving back to the community.

My wife works pro bono occasionally, and we don't live under a bridge (but we live close to several) and we don't eat ramen noodles every day (but do enjoy going out to eat ramen every now and then).


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## smoke665 (May 23, 2017)

waday said:


> The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good.



Don't disagree with you, assuming you have some form of "means" that provides the basic necessities. All of us have a responsibility to give back our time and talents to others, in whatever manner we can.  Over the years, I've spent literally thousands of unpaid hours as a VF and First Responder, and continue to serve in the department as an adviser and board member, but I was fortunate like you I've always had sufficient income to provide for the necessities. I suspect that was the basis of the earlier comment.


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## waday (May 23, 2017)

smoke665 said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > The third option is living within your means while providing a free service for the public good.
> ...


Understand and appreciate your response. I agree that to do pro bono work, one needs at least some financial security to pay the bills. However, pro bono work is not strictly made up by charging others more.

I'm not trying to get snarky, so please don't misunderstand. Pro bono work is essentially voluntarily taking on work for free. We all know this.

What I'm saying is that when it was stated in this thread, it was alongside a definition that indicated that the "free work" was then explicitly made up by charging others extra. If you charge others more as a direct result of "free work", that's not pro bono, at least not to me.

For example, if I were to volunteer for my local community, and I had to take a day off work, I am personally responsible for that time. I make the time up by working four 10 hour days (to get to 40 hours full-time), or I just don't get paid for that day and choose to take the loss. I don't turnaround and charge my clients extra for that time off for increased overhead. I don't raise my multiplier to get more money. I would be volunteering for the public good, so I freely give up that time, which I see as a benefit to the community. If I can't do it financially, then I may choose to volunteer on weekends when I'm not "on-the-clock".

Rather than donating money explicitly, one would be donating time and effort. Yes, that is "equal" to money, but some people enjoy helping out physically rather than financially. An attorney can do things for free that they may normally charge thousands of dollars for (because they have the expertise and the license). Given the right circumstances and the right clients, an attorney may be very willing to help out for free.


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## pixmedic (May 23, 2017)

what ive always found odd is the stigma often placed on people by the photography community for having a "part time" photography business. 
people dont seem to bat an eye at other part time cottage industries. selling baked goods on the weekend? sure.  art pieces in your spare time? no problem. 
building computers on the side? hey, everyone's got a friend that does that...
but mention you do photography part time and suddenly it's an issue. you can't possibly be a professional if photography doesn't pay for the house, the car, and all other major expenses.

oh no, someone works part time while their significant other works full time and pays more of the bills....guess they don't count. 

as for defining "professional", just give up. thats a pointless and utterly meaningless debate. 
i'll say one thing though, the tax office sure considered us "professional" four times a year, regardless of how much money we did or did not make, or what % of the bills were paid by photography work. 


my point is...
if you are considering or already using photography as a part time/supplemental means of income....good for you!
absolutely no reason not to make money with something if you have the means to. 
as long as you are properly set up to do so within state and county regulations.


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## JPI (May 23, 2017)

Derrel said:


> I liked Nerwin's slight rant.



Yep, like that last paragraph


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## Vtec44 (May 23, 2017)

pixmedic said:


> but mention you do photography part time and suddenly it's an issue.



I don't think the issue is about being a "professional photographer".  The issue is that that people who do it part time are often under charging, which then flood the market with low cost photographers and have an advantage over the high volume photography business model.

I personally don't care what people charge or call themselves.  Aint nobody got time for that.


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## bluewanders (May 23, 2017)

pixmedic said:


> what ive always found odd is the stigma often placed on people by the photography community for having a "part time" photography business.
> people dont seem to bat an eye at other part time cottage industries. selling baked goods on the weekend? sure.  art pieces in your spare time? no problem.
> building computers on the side? hey, everyone's got a friend that does that...
> but mention you do photography part time and suddenly it's an issue. you can't possibly be a professional if photography doesn't pay for the house, the car, and all other major expenses.
> ...


The barrier of entry is low and the products of the work are entirely subjective. Those products are also being sold to a population that has things other than education on the subject to inform their preferences. Sounds like excellent conditions for elitism to rise.  Especially when there's money involved to muddle hopes and dreams.  People will either blame their success or lack thereof on other people, or themselves.  That's when derogatory terms like "mom with a camera" start getting created and bandied about to put people in their place.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you hung out in communities of bakers or computer builders you might see some elitism there too... but you hang out in a photography community, so it will stand out prominently to you as a regular part of your experience.


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## weepete (May 23, 2017)

I Dunno, I saw a photography "studio" in the town where I work offering a 1/2 hour familly session with an 8x10 print for £14.99

Seemed crazy low to me. Makes me glad I'm an engineer and not trying to make a living at this photography lark.


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## dennybeall (May 27, 2017)

Someone said you have to show a profit to be able to deduct business losses. That is not exactly true. You can spend a couple of years working to build a business , not make a profit, and deduct the losses from your other income. After that you can deduct the business costs from any business gains and if an overall loss you show zero for the business. It's still a viable, real business, just not a profitable one by IRS standards....


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## Dean_Gretsch (May 29, 2017)

All this talk about making profits and covering costs makes me happy I just do this because I enjoy what I experience and see while in the pursuit.


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## jaomul (Aug 28, 2017)

There is also the type of photographer issue. Most enthusiast photographers know that there are a few types of photography and being good at one type does not always make one good at another.

A professional photographer did my cousins wedding very badly. The same guy is a paid photographer, but not a paid wedding photographer (except for jobs on the side). If you asked 95% of people I know, a photographer is a photographer. They would probably think a great landscape guy/girl would automatically be good at events.

But then again, we have professional cameras and professional lenses, often high cost units. Stands to reason the term can be thrown about for a photographer irrelevant of said persons status


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## fmw (Aug 28, 2017)

nerwin said:


> I have a slight rant.
> 
> I don't know how many articles I have read that say "you can't be a photographer until your photography has made you money" - "if you don't, you're just another guy with a camera". I find that complete and utter BS.
> 
> ...



Amen to that.  I should add that being a professional photographer doesn't necessarily mean good photographer.  Think of those portrait operations in a mall.  Change the subject, fire the shutter.  I think there are probably as many good photographers in the serious amateur ranks per capita than there are in the professional ranks.  I've made money doing horse portraits and pictures of factory floors that any serious amateur could do.  I've seen professional photographer web sites with images that turn my stomach.  I'm not fond of weddings either.


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## kretterath (Aug 28, 2017)

Any time you have any sort of money invested into a photography business you have to charge according to what your output and experience is. A beginner building a portfolio wouldn't be on the same pay scale as someone who has been shooting for money for 10 years.


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## runnah (Aug 28, 2017)

I plumb the depths of depravity on a semi-regular basis.


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## TheLibrarian (Sep 19, 2017)

Not much talk of actual numbers. Now I'm not a paid photographer but run some numbers. Paid could mean 20k a yr but to walk away from a decent job I'd need 50k salary to me after most expenses that's a good 960 say 1k a week. That's going to be rough. I see 600$ baby pics but not convinced even a good photographer could get that twice a week.  Need corporate steady work and or weddings in season. pause for a sec.


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## TheLibrarian (Sep 19, 2017)

One main issue is how much work you can expect to get and how much time would you spend photographing vs advertising and businessing. 

Maybe turn that on it's head and ask how many people you can support if you shot 40hrs a week. $100 an hour seems reasonable many things cost more than that weddings etc. $4,000 a week among 4 people... alright many other expenses too especially bringing in more people. 

What 4 do we need. Full time ad person, business and retoucher. Toss out the retoucher and pay the taxes and insurance. And at 50k we expect professionalish people. Advertising and business folk make more.

10k in startup gear. Full frame cam 2-3 good lenses. Stands, lights etc. 4-5k month NYC studio. 1k anywhere else or 25o wk. Pay off equipment or make back in 5 years. That's 2k year eq. 

52+2+12+5(slop)= 71 year alone + 104(help)= 175

71/52 = 1,3--/ 40 hrs= 34 hr shooting 40 hrs alone.

175/52= 3.36-/ 40hrs= 84 hr shooting 40 hrs 2 pros in the office booking up 40 hrs.


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