# How do I repair my arrangement with this car club?



## epp_b (Jun 6, 2011)

As some of you may know from past threads, I've been shooting on the track for a local car club's annual racing event.  For this, I have not been compensated anything beyond $100 for the use of a photo from the previous year, for printing on t-shirts and/or posters.

The dilemma I have is this: on one hand, I do really enjoy doing it.  On the other hand, it's probably 25-30 hours of hard work, including prep, shooting and post, so I feel disappointed to be just giving away so much time and effort.

What I would like to do is offer to shoot in a more official (and paid) capacity.  Of course, there is the matter of asking them to pay for something they've previously received for free.  This is where I would offer them rights to and copies of all of the photos for club-related uses. Sort of a work-for-hire kind of deal.

Additionally, $100 compensation for a photo to be used on 400 t-shirts isn't exactly satisfactory.  I would sure like to get something more reasonable than that.

However, there is the delicate balance of my desire to get on the track again (it's the only opportunity I get to shoot this type of thing) and the club rejecting my offer. Letting me on the track is, afterall, their prerogative, even if it doesn't cost them anything.

Have I screwed myself into being stuck with the past arrangement?  Might I be opening a can of worms here that I'm expected to be a full time pro to be paid this way?  Personally, I think I've proven myself in being able to produce results to a professional standard of artistic and technical quality, and isn't that all that really matters?

And, yes, Blank, you are free to snicker and say "I told you so" ...


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## tirediron (Jun 6, 2011)

Is there anyone you can talk to in the club 'off the record' to get a feeling for their mood? I think that my approach would be along the lines of, "Okay folks, I really like doing this, and I want to continue, but the fact is, all the time I am shooting here is time I am not earning the money I need to feed my family. My normal rate for this sort of work is <X>, however because I really enjoy this, and want to continue to support your organization, I am willing to do this for <Y>, which if you factor in all the time it takes, only translates into <dollars/hr>.  <Insert soft-soap about how great a value your work is even at this price>

At the end of the day, I think this will be a tough sell; you've worked for free up until now, and the unfortunate reality is that there's almost certainly some shrub with a DSLR and kit lens who would jump in and take your place for free. Granted the quality of work would likely fall, but nine times out of ten, people are happy to lose a bit of quality to save money.


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## gsgary (Jun 6, 2011)

They will get another mug to do it for nothing, $100 will buy bits for their cars


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## Overread (Jun 6, 2011)

Hmm I'm assuming then that they track don't currently have pro photography on their payroll shooting for them already? 

Maybe if you feel you can push or get them to make a market for you in that capacity, you could instead try selling and pitching to the drivers, mechanics, fans themselves direct? Course chances are you'd need a 2 person team to carry this off (since you'd need someone to pitch, print and sell on site whilst you're still trackside shooting the next race/lap/event). That might be a little easier to swing in letting you cover your costs of the day by pitching to them direct whilst the track still gets your services for almost free (of course if they are also pitching their sales to the drivers they might hate this idea even more so).


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## KmH (Jun 6, 2011)

Blank gave up on TPF. - 
*Last Activity 12-22-2009 08:37 PM*

But I'll let him know for you, the next time I talk to him.


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## Railphotog (Jun 6, 2011)

Overread said:


> Maybe if you feel you can push or get them to make a market for you in that capacity, you could instead try selling and pitching to the drivers, mechanics, fans themselves direct?



This is how I got into photography, at area drag strips  and later stock car tracks.  I was allowed to take photos of the races, and I supplied them with some free photos for their promotional needs.   I sold photos to the car owners, and then to race fans at the stock car track.  It was all a hobby for me, and I was able to enjoy my interest in cars and make a few bucks.  Not a living, but more than enough to pay photo costs and transportation costs at farther tracks.


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## epp_b (Jun 6, 2011)

> Hmm I'm assuming then that they track don't currently have pro photography on their payroll shooting for them already?


 Correct.  





> Maybe if you feel you can push or get them to make a market for you in that capacity, you could instead try selling and pitching to the drivers, mechanics, fans themselves direct? Course chances are you'd need a 2 person team to carry this off (since you'd need someone to pitch, print and sell on site whilst you're still trackside shooting the next race/lap/event). That might be a little easier to swing in letting you cover your costs of the day by pitching to them direct whilst the track still gets your services for almost free (of course if they are also pitching their sales to the drivers they might hate this idea even more so).


 Selling on-site is not realistic for me, but I like the idea of pitching more to the participants.


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## Rekd (Jun 6, 2011)

epp_b said:


> How do I repair my arrangement with this car club?


 
This is not a matter of repair. The arrangement at this point is not 'broken'. It is was it always has been only now you have decided it's time to change. 

The question is, does the club think it's worth it? 

Ask them straight up as respectfully as you can if they're willing to give you $XXX.00 for your time and effort. The only way you'll know is to talk to them. But put together a case before you do so you're not going in off the seat of your pants. 

What could happen? They say they're not willing to pay you? Then what? You keep shooting or you move on to paying customers.


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## KmH (Jun 6, 2011)

Rekd said:


> What could happen?


They can deny him track access.

As an extreme, they may also be able to deny him access to the property, even as just a spectator.


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## Rekd (Jun 6, 2011)

KmH said:


> Rekd said:
> 
> 
> > What could happen?
> ...


 
For asking if he can get paid for his time to shoot them? 

I suppose it _could _happen... but if it _did_ happen would that really be someone you'd want to keep shooting for? Especially for free? :lmao:


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## Formatted (Jun 7, 2011)

No sympathy, you've made your bed and now your going to have to sleep in it.


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## Village Idiot (Jun 7, 2011)

KmH said:


> Rekd said:
> 
> 
> > What could happen?
> ...



I don't know if the club would be able to do that. The track, yes, but often the club is just renting the track and people can still come in to spectate and shoot photos. I guess it depends on the venue and the club's relationship with the venue.

OP - Is your portfolio enough to solicit other for business? If so, you can approach the club and tell them that as a photographer producing professional quality images, you need some sort of compensation to continue putting your time and effort into what you're doing. If they tell you no, you'll have a portfolio to market elsewhere.


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## GeneralBenson (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry to say it, but this is exactly why the whole mentality of "I'll just give it away for free to 'gain experience', then I'll try to convince that it's worth money later" doesn't work at all. You've built your whole relationship with this bike club on the premise that your good photography isn't worth anything. I would say the only thing you can do is convince them of something that is significantly different than it was, like my photo are much better now and at a professional standard, or I've made significant gear upgrades since then, or I no longer have the time to just do this for free. Something that makes them see how they are now receiving something of more value than they used to be. But if your photos, gear and time constraints aren't any different than before, I don't know how you expect them to see that something that was previously free should now be worth money. Ultimately, if you're not willing to walk away from this, then you have no leverage. If I were you, I would decide how much the job should be to make it worth it for you, tell them that number, then they either accept or you walk. It's that simple. 

Too many photographers these days negotiate like this:

"That'll be $500."
"We don't have $500."
"Ok, I'll do it for free. Thanks for your business."


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## c.cloudwalker (Jun 7, 2011)

^^^^^ :thumbup:


General I sure hope to meet you some day. In the meantime, let's hope people don't get any brighter. That is certainly the main reason I will help newbies with their work. They have no business sense and it matters little if they can take better pictures than mine.


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## epp_b (Jun 7, 2011)

> Sorry to say it, but this is exactly why the whole mentality of "I'll  just give it away for free to 'gain experience', then I'll try to  convince that it's worth money later" doesn't work at all. You've built  your whole relationship with this bike club on the premise that your  good photography isn't worth anything. I would say the only thing you  can do is convince them of something that is significantly different  than it was, like my photo are much better now and at a professional  standard, or I've made significant gear upgrades since then, or I no  longer have the time to just do this for free. Something that makes them  see how they are now receiving something of more value than they used  to be. But if your photos, gear and time constraints aren't any  different than before, I don't know how you expect them to see that  something that was previously free should now be worth money.  Ultimately, if you're not willing to walk away from this, then you have  no leverage. If I were you, I would decide how much the job should be to  make it worth it for you, tell them that number, then they either  accept or you walk. It's that simple.
> 
> Too many photographers these days negotiate like this:
> 
> ...



Harsh ... but fair.

I have invested considerably more time, effort and money in my photography and my quality certainly has improved from 2-3 years ago.


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## gsgary (Jun 7, 2011)

epp_b said:


> > Hmm I'm assuming then that they track don't currently have pro photography on their payroll shooting for them already?
> 
> 
> Correct.
> ...


 

Why is printing on site out of the question ? you can pick up a Hiti 730ps up dirt cheap and the print quality is up with the best 
Hi-Touch HiTi 730PS Dye Sublimation Photo Printer - Product Description Details - DIMA 2005 Award Winner


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## epp_b (Jun 7, 2011)

> Why is printing on site out of the question ? you can pick up a Hiti 730ps up dirt cheap and the print quality is up with the best


 Because I don't do run-of-the-mill boring crap that are just plain recordings, I create art that requires careful time and consideration in post.

When I am shooting on the track, I am on the track for 8 hours straight and there is certainly no time for me to sit down at a computer.


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## Aye-non Oh-non Imus (Jun 7, 2011)

epp_b said:


> > Why is printing on site out of the question ? you can pick up a Hiti 730ps up dirt cheap and the print quality is up with the best
> 
> 
> Because I don't do run-of-the-mill boring crap, I create art that requires careful time and consideration in post.
> ...


You sound like an arteeeeest that prefers to stay broke.  Which, by the way, was the likely reason for the initial arrangement.  Lessons learned, lesson yet to be learned.  Which one weighs more?


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## Overread (Jun 7, 2011)

epp_b said:


> > Why is printing on site out of the question ? you can pick up a Hiti 730ps up dirt cheap and the print quality is up with the best
> 
> 
> Because I don't do run-of-the-mill boring crap that are just plain recordings, I create art that requires careful time and consideration in post.
> ...


 
Then you'll have to inter-space your art with your work. Take your arty shots, but also take the record shots - the stuff that will sell on the day. An assistant (wife/friend/coworker - make sure you make a contract with them for paid work!) can then take the general work shots- quickly process them on a laptop and prepare them for print on the day (wireless communication is ideal between camera and laptop, but a few more cards and regular handing of them over should work).

That lets you pitch and sell on the day - whilst also leaving the field open to selling your more arty work later on.


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## GeneralBenson (Jun 7, 2011)

epp_b said:


> > Sorry to say it, but this is exactly why the whole mentality of "I'll  just give it away for free to 'gain experience', then I'll try to  convince that it's worth money later" doesn't work at all. You've built  your whole relationship with this bike club on the premise that your  good photography isn't worth anything. I would say the only thing you  can do is convince them of something that is significantly different  than it was, like my photo are much better now and at a professional  standard, or I've made significant gear upgrades since then, or I no  longer have the time to just do this for free. Something that makes them  see how they are now receiving something of more value than they used  to be. But if your photos, gear and time constraints aren't any  different than before, I don't know how you expect them to see that  something that was previously free should now be worth money.  Ultimately, if you're not willing to walk away from this, then you have  no leverage. If I were you, I would decide how much the job should be to  make it worth it for you, tell them that number, then they either  accept or you walk. It's that simple.
> >
> > Too many photographers these days negotiate like this:
> >
> ...



If that is true then you are giving them something of more value, and a revisiting of the agreement is in order. Problem solved.


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## GeneralBenson (Jun 7, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> ^^^^^ :thumbup:
> 
> 
> General I sure hope to meet you some day. In the meantime, let's hope people don't get any brighter. That is certainly the main reason I will help newbies with their work. They have no business sense and it matters little if they can take better pictures than mine.



I just moved to W. Simpson Street. Where do you live? We should hang out.


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## epp_b (Jun 7, 2011)

> You sound like an arteeeeest that prefers to stay broke.  Which, by the  way, was the likely reason for the initial arrangement.  Lessons  learned, lesson yet to be learned.  Which one weighs more?


Thaaaaaaaaat's probably a fair assessment 



> Then you'll have to inter-space your art with your work. Take your arty  shots, but also take the record shots - the stuff that will sell on the  day. An assistant (wife/friend/coworker - make sure you make a contract  with them for paid work!) can then take the general work shots- quickly  process them on a laptop and prepare them for print on the day (wireless  communication is ideal between camera and laptop, but a few more cards  and regular handing of them over should work).
> 
> That lets you pitch and sell on the day - whilst also leaving the field open to selling your more arty work later on.


Well, yes and no.  It takes a lot of time and concentration to make the great ones and I don't think I'm willing to give that up.


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## gsgary (Jun 8, 2011)

epp_b said:


> > Why is printing on site out of the question ? you can pick up a Hiti 730ps up dirt cheap and the print quality is up with the best
> 
> 
> Because I don't do run-of-the-mill boring crap that are just plain recordings, I create art that requires careful time and consideration in post.
> ...


 
Most people do artsy **** to a shot to cover up crap, lets see one of your shots before and after


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## epp_b (Jun 8, 2011)

If you're referring to obvious, cheesy-looking vignettes and so on, then, no, I don't do that (at least not for a long time, anyway).  What I'm talking about is the small adjustments that make a big difference for each image.  If you just let your camera set the picture control defaults, your work is all going to end up looking the same, and not in a good way.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jun 8, 2011)

GeneralBenson said:


> I just moved to W. Simpson Street. Where do you live? We should hang out.


 
:lmao:

I'm just around the corner, in the country about 45 minutes outside of Paris.


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## gsgary (Jun 8, 2011)

epp_b said:


> If you're referring to obvious, cheesy-looking vignettes and so on, then, no, I don't do that (at least not for a long time, anyway).  What I'm talking about is the small adjustments that make a big difference for each image.  If you just let your camera set the picture control defaults, your work is all going to end up looking the same, and not in a good way.


 
Nothing artsy about that, i can do that at an event and print on site, my camera does not adjust anything and the shots don't need much doing to them


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