# Event photography:  Best practices for getting paid to practice?



## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## McQueen278 (Jun 20, 2009)

It's called an apprenticeship.  You normally don't paid for them.  Find a REALLY nice photographer and they MIGHT let you get in their way for free and you'll spend a good deal of the time fetching things.  You will not find a wedding photographer who will split money on the prints they sell.  I suppose you could try to do the &quot;Give me your hard earned money even though I can't garauntee anything for it.&quot; approach.  Good luck with that.  It's like going to school, they don't pay you like an accountant until you are an accountant.  Unfortunately, your expectations on this are completely unrealistic.  You have to relize that you are doing something that a lot of people can do pretty well.  You can't even garauntee anything.  There is no value in that.  Hell, I had to work as a journalist for NO MONEY for a year to get published.


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## KmH (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> I just want to take pictures for myself and get paid for it.
> 
> Work as a second for a busy photographer. They pay me a small fee for the day, and then split the money from any of my prints that sell.
> 
> Do you think it would be better to skip the complicated arrangements and go straight to, "I charge $X and don't guarantee anything"?


 If you figure out how to take pictures just for yourself and get paid for it, write a book, you'll get rich.

Most pro photographers, paying for the services of a second, require the second sign an agreement giving copyright to the primary photographer. However, many times the primary photographer will let the second use selected images in their personal portfolio.


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

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## McQueen278 (Jun 20, 2009)

You're not getting it.  If you don't know how to do this or how it works (sorry, but you clearly have no clue how any of this works), you aren't worth anything yet.  Either join the masses of craptastic wedding photographers with no experience who lie about their credentials or realize that you aren't yet worth any money and learn.  Get a job at a restaurant to pay your bills like most struggling college students have to do and get your education.  I'm not saying go to "school", but get your experience.  You're going to have to realize that you aren't worth paying, you said it yourself.  Just because you want to get paid right off the bat doesn't mean it will happen.  Your portfolio and the time it takes to make a decent one are just part of the investment in your new business.

Oh and if you crash weddings and start taking pictures claiming to be a wedding photographer, prepare yourself for a stiff right hook.  It is in almost everyones service contract that no other professional photographers will be allowed to photograph the occassion.  The only exceptions to this are when they have a friend in your situation who just wants to snap some pictures and the couple OKs it with the photographer.

Just keep asking yourself these question; 

"Just because I have a car and a manual, would I charge people money to work on their cars?"

"Just because I have Quicken, should I charge people to do their taxes?"

"I watch Law and Order, should I charge people to solve crimes?"


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> Another possibility is to just crash weddings.


And what makes you think someone will pay you for that...?

You might be able to get a decent shot here and there, but I doubt you'd be able to get anything 'portfolio worthy' without getting thrown out.



wonkavision said:


> Or do test shoots for models.



You can build your portfolio this way, but you will have to pay the models.



wonkavision said:


> A problem with relying on print sales:  If a client can't afford a $600 photographer, they probably can't afford prints.


...Depends how much the prints are.  Not saying you should sell them at cost - but there's a big difference between charging $600 +prints and just selling the prints.

edit
It's probably not a good idea to not offer a service just because you assume nobody can afford it...


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## craig (Jun 20, 2009)

Who's Steve? At any rate there is no reason to get angry. The above posts are correct.

The business of photography is just like any other. You need skills to make money. If you are going to take photography seriously you need to work very hard at it. The choices are basically schooling or assisting. Generally takes years as opposed to months.

Also keep in mind that shooting for "practice" may not improve your book. You will need guidance from your peers and or professors.

I say join your local photo group. Take classes. Post lots of photos for crit. Let's see some work.

Love & Bass


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## KmH (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> Another possibility is to just crash weddings.


Weddings are usually held on private property so this is an excellent way to get arrested and sully the industry in general.


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## KmH (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> Shadowing a working photographer is a good idea, and I do intend to do that. If nothing else, it's better than watching a video. Hell, I might even make a video and work out a deal with the photographer to split sales of it. Or sell it to him outright for use as a promotional tool.
> 
> Another possibility is to just crash weddings.
> 
> ...


 No, not probably. They ARE unworkable.

You're really spinning your wheels here. You should be out working on improving your photographic skills and/or getting a better grounding in how business really works, because so far none of your proposals or suppositions has been anywhere near workable.

Are you willing to invest $30 in yourself?: Get this book and visit their website www.asmp.org 

How about taking a look at a top pro's website www.johnharrington.com . Click on his pricing tab. He's got 8 sub-catagories you can look at there. John also has a book I can recommend:  "Best Business Practices for Photographers".

There are others out there so it would be worth your while to do some more investigation on your own.

Goood luck in your endevours.


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## Josh220 (Jun 20, 2009)

You want to charge people to take shots, and tell them upfront that you can't guarantee you won't completely suck at your job? That attitude won't get you a job at a fast food joint.

Do you have any pictures you can show us so we can let you know if you have any talent to back up your views on easy money?

Rather than everyone saying how unrealistic this is, maybe go out and give it a try for a while. When you realize no one is going to give money to someone for shots they can take themselves with a P&S camera that they bought for $100, come back and let us know how it worked out for you. I just feel like you are incredibly arrogant if you think you can just skip over working hard like every other photographer and try to con people out of money for a poor job.

Rather than conning people to build your portfolio, why don't you try to build a portfolio that shows whether you are any good or not to show to people, give them a decent rate for an amateur photographer, and build on that.


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## Josh220 (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> Josh220 said:
> 
> 
> > You want to charge people to take shots, and tell them upfront that you can't guarantee you won't completely suck at your job? That attitude won't get you a job at a fast food joint.
> ...



Yes. I feel like you are conning people if you take their money with no guarantee of quality. Just go out and practice on your own, build up a respectable portfolio, and then eventually you can charge for shoots. Would you pay a mechanic if he says he can't guarantee he knows anything about your vehicle?


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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2009)

Josh220 said:


> Would you pay a mechanic if he says he can't guarantee he knows anything about your vehicle?



It depends.  Did I go to his shop and ask for a repair estimate, or did he show up uninvited at my house?


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## Josh220 (Jun 20, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> Josh220 said:
> 
> 
> > Would you pay a mechanic if he says he can't guarantee he knows anything about your vehicle?
> ...



Hahahaha good point. But he is not offering estimates, he is offering photo shoots. He wants to take people's money, and not have to worry about his ability as a photographer.


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## Josh220 (Jun 20, 2009)

Well I wish you luck in your approach, I do not wish to make this any more heated.


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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> Minus all the hyperbole, misunderstanding, and hostility, there seem to be two schools of thought as to how I (or anyone in my position) should proceed:
> 
> 1. Be clear about what I offer and charge rates comparable to those offered by other photographers (presumably at least $100 an hour).
> 
> ...



Yeah, pretty much.

It sounds like you want the best of both - lots of money with no expectations.

You might be able to get away with it one or two times, but it won't last.


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## Blank (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> I'd like to shoot a dozen or more events in as risk-free (for the clients) an arrangement as possible while still getting paid.
> 
> I'm interested only in building a portfolio and confidence. I'd shoot friends and relatives for free, but I don't have any. So shooting other people's events saves me the trouble of recruiting models. Yet many photographers with less ability than I have do charge, and photographers with more ability may lose work if I work for free. So I have to charge something.
> 
> ...


 
As a photographer (especially one expecting to be paid due for a service provided), you WILL be gauged off several, if not all of the following criteria:
A portfolio
A referral
A creditation
A competitive package or rate
A registered business

A potential client (willing to part with payment), will want to see bare minimum 2 of the 5 points mentioned. If this is not yet achievable, you will be hard pressed to get a nickel from anyone. This is not a critique of your ability, it is a common denominator of any door that is open for business.

As a person in business, expecting to return cost or profit, you are expected to meet satisfactory approval, off your paying client. That is why you got hired in the first place. Not wanting to fill an expectation but expecting for your client to pay is one of the most absurd business statements I think I have ever heard. 

Obviously there is risk involved with any business and the word "guarantee" is not required in your presentation, but photographers are at the mercy of technology and we go to every shoot with backup's. There is no back up for unsatisfactory shots. You either take on a job you can handle, or you decline or wait until your skills are at a level you can complete with confidence. Not wanting to guarantee good photos just says your lacking ability in what your doing and not wanting to cater to the client's taste! (you better change your thought process on this one, best you ask the client what they want, then offer constructive suggestion if you see a different or better way, usually via a portfolio).

As for your last line, you are not generating any income with a business statement like that.

Here's my advice. Spend a year or two and put together a portfolio. Understand exactly what it takes to create and deliver a great photo for whatever genre you select. Set reachable goals for your progress and cut your business arrogance in quarters. Post your work in forums, thats where the real critics are, or, politely ask the editorial dept of your local paper, what you have to do to be considered for editorial freelance (they are also harsh critics). You need your work exposed for you to get a reality check.

It is a must that you go to any paid job as a photographer that you be able to deal with any condition and deliver shots as per specification, otherwise your business obituary will be written based on your efforts, not your customers expectations.


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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > You can build your portfolio this way, but you will have to pay the models.
> ...



Agreed...  Generally they will want some form of compensation though.  Compensation does not necessarily have to be money.  (It could be prints, for example.)


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## KmH (Jun 20, 2009)

TFP or TFCD


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## wonkavision (Jun 20, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## Josh66 (Jun 20, 2009)

I guess it depends on the model and what they're looking to do.

Prints would be good because they would have to come back to you for reprints.  They might see that as too costly though (maybe... ?).  They will most likely want at least a few images on CD though - for use on MySpace, or whatever.

A CD would be good for them, but not really offer any future benefit for you.

Really, I think it all depends on what kind of license you give them with the files.
You would obviously retain the copyrights.  I would assume that it's standard practice to give them license to have prints made with the CD, but I'm not sure.

That's something you'll need to have figured out and on paper ahead of time.


I would think a model release would be a must, but, like you said - the model may expect more in return for that.


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## tirediron (Jun 21, 2009)




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## Sachphotography (Jun 21, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> I'd like to shoot a dozen or more events in as risk-free (for the clients) an arrangement as possible while still getting paid.
> 
> I'm interested only in building a portfolio and confidence.  I'd shoot friends and relatives for free, but I don't have any.  So shooting other people's events saves me the trouble of recruiting models.  Yet many photographers with less ability than I have do charge, and photographers with more ability may lose work if I work for free.  So I have to charge something.
> 
> ...



Hey,
      I think it is great that you would like to learn first. Most people just do it and either they happen to do a good job, they do a so so job but ignorant people who don't know better let them get away with it, or they do a crap job and the people who them get mad and life goes south. My advise would be for you to just get out there and shoot. If you are going to shoot an outside shoot; go to where you are going to be shooting and take pictures. Don't worry about the money at first. Just shoot. If you are wanting to do weddings, go to your church, or any for that matter and ask to shoot in there sanctuary. Use a friend for a model. Get practice learning how to shoot the different lighting setups. The key is to take so many pictures you do not want to take any more. But all seriousness aside. You need to learn how & build a portfolio first. Then and only then you can show you book to clients as proof of your talent and worth. Just work hard And take your time. Your business will build itself once you get it going. Good Luck 

Let me know if I can be of any assistance. 

Daniel Sach
Sachphotography Fine Art Photography The homepage of Daniel Sach and his photography Company


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## dave196 (Jun 21, 2009)

A wise man once told me (whilst I was on work experience shooting/carrying stuff at a wedding with him) that "The cream will rise to the top."
If you are really worth your food as a photographer, then take the plunge, get your work out there. Build a portfolio and if its good then you will get noticed, and start making money.
If there was a way you could make money as a photographer without having skill, then everyone would do it.

As for me, I contact event organisers, ask them to put me on the door list if I give them my photos at the end of the night. 
I get about 2 "non paid jobs" a month this way, which helps me get cool shots for my portfolio, and also get my name out.

The other way you could go, is trust yourself, and start charging.
If you fail, you will earn little money.
If you do well, skys the limit.

OR, you could get qualified, which is always a bonus.

Just my 2c, good luck!


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## a.rilley (Jun 21, 2009)

You should charge a base fee and then if you work for longer than a certain amount of time (ex. 3 hours) then you start charging hourly and then charge for however many prints they want (optional).

Basically all you really need to do, is find out what professional photographers are charging, and charge between what they are charging and what amateur photographers (the one's you mentioned) are charging. Easy right?  

Edit: Build up a portfolio consisting of event shots (local bands, school plays, etc.), scenic shots, outdoor shots, seasonal shots, etc. The purpose of doing so would be to gain your potential client's trust, so they know that you are capable of taking great pictures. Another option would be to start out doing events for free until you build up a portfolio of what you have to offer your customers, that way there is less hesitation in their decision. 



McQueen278 said:


> It's called an apprenticeship.  You normally don't paid for them.  Find a REALLY nice photographer and they MIGHT let you get in their way for free and you'll spend a good deal of the time fetching things.  You will not find a wedding photographer who will split money on the prints they sell.  I suppose you could try to do the &quot;Give me your hard earned money even though I can't garauntee anything for it.&quot; approach.  Good luck with that.  It's like going to school, they don't pay you like an accountant until you are an accountant.  Unfortunately, your expectations on this are completely unrealistic.  You have to relize that you are doing something that a lot of people can do pretty well.  You can't even garauntee anything.  There is no value in that.  Hell, I had to work as a journalist for NO MONEY for a year to get published.



That's not what an apprenticeship is, but you're thinking along the right lines. If you're working under a photographer as an apprentice you do get paid for it. What you're thinking of is an internship! Internships are much like apprenticeships.. but you don't get paid a dime until they offer you an actual position and are willing to pay you professionally. It's essentially what you've explained. :thumbup:


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## McQueen278 (Jun 21, 2009)

a.rilley said:


> McQueen278 said:
> 
> 
> > It's called an apprenticeship.  You normally don't paid for them.  Find a REALLY nice photographer and they MIGHT let you get in their way for free and you'll spend a good deal of the time fetching things.  You will not find a wedding photographer who will split money on the prints they sell.  I suppose you could try to do the &quot;Give me your hard earned money even though I can't garauntee anything for it.&quot; approach.  Good luck with that.  It's like going to school, they don't pay you like an accountant until you are an accountant.  Unfortunately, your expectations on this are completely unrealistic.  You have to relize that you are doing something that a lot of people can do pretty well.  You can't even garauntee anything.  There is no value in that.  Hell, I had to work as a journalist for NO MONEY for a year to get published.
> ...



That's what we called it when I worked for a photographer for a little over a year with only occasional monetary compensation.  My marketing internship right out of college was paid believe it or not.  I'm not trying to pick a fight over the thesaurus here, far from it.  I just wanted to highlight that anyone who is working in any industry has had a period of learning that they are usually only compensated for in experience.  

As for making you angry, it's better for me tell you this and you get all hot under the collar sitting at your computer rather than you here this from someone working in the industry who you hope will let you work with them.  The rest of this is just...


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## McQueen278 (Jun 21, 2009)

Oh and I read this to a friend at work we call, The FOG (you can figure out that acronym) who was a wedding photographer for 25 years and taught photography to surveillance specialists in the Army during the 60-70s.  He said to thank you for giving an old man a good laugh.


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## wonkavision (Jun 21, 2009)

[deleted by user]


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 21, 2009)

wonkavision said:


> what trolls usually do is post off-topic comments designed to inflame or incite



You've got that bit right



wonkavision said:


> such as goofy pictures.



This is generally an optional extra

Is this thread worth any more TPF bandwidth or have all the options been explored now?


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## wonkavision (Jun 21, 2009)

Chris,

Who do you blame for wasting bandwidth?


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## ajcstudio (Jun 21, 2009)

hey wonk u have 10 post and they are all for this thread u are just some stupid kid or even worse an adult looking to piss people off stop stalking tpf and then make a username to just arouse people.


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## wonkavision (Jun 21, 2009)

ajcstudio said:


> hey wonk u have 10 post and they are all for this thread u are just some stupid kid or even worse an adult looking to piss people off stop stalking tpf and then make a username to just arouse people.



HA HA!

Here we go.

Three claims here:

1. People who have just 10 posts are worth less than people who have 200 posts.

2. I am either a) a stupid kid or b) an adult looking to piss people off.

3. I have been "stalking" TPF and making usernames just to arouse people.

Now, claim #1 is the cause of claims two and three.  This is a perfect example of cognitive bias.  The online forum user's identity becomes fused with the forum itself, and any attack on the forum (such as a "noob" contradicting "senior users") is interpreted as an attack on the ego itself.  Any number of people can fall prey to that, misread comments in their agitated emotional state, and post poorly written/poorly thought out kneejerk responses.

Steve McQueen's first two comments in this thread are a perfect example, assuming he wasn't drunk.

As to claims #2 and #3, can ANYONE find any proof for those claims?

I can go line-by-line and prove the existence of poor reading comprehension, bad spelling/grammar, bad logic, hyperbole, and irrational group behavior; but can anyone prove the accusations that have been made against me?

Accusations, such as that I'm a terrible photographer.

This last set of claims is tantamount to mob violence.  It's a group gone mad, flailing its arms and lashing out at a heretic.

#

Moderators,

I hope this thread chills you to the bone.  You are moderating an irrational mob, and this community's failure is your own.

While I have never trolled this forum, it has proven itself EXCEPTIONALLY vulnerable to trolling.  I guarantee you, I could turn this forum into a gibbering loony bin in about five weeks.

I **** on you all.


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 21, 2009)

Oh well...


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