# Professional Shoot - What to do?



## DGMPhotography (Mar 7, 2013)

So in my time here at TPF, I've often learned by picking up things that multiple people have told me and what I've analyzed through various threads, but I still would like to have advice for specific things now and then and this is no different. I am possibly photographing several models for this small business soon. This is their website: Welcome To Adiva Naturals I was told there would be several models I would be photographing to showcase their products. The lady I talked to assumed I would have my own lighting equipment, and I might be able to borrow some, but...

1) What do I do if I can't come up with it?
2) What kind of shots should I do, and where? Since they're models being hired by her, should the models be in charge of their own poses, or her (owner), or me?
3) What kind of and who needs to sign contracts/model releases? If she is paying me for my work, do I lose the right to the images (I can't use them on my FB page, etc?)
4) I've made it clear to her I am in no way a top-notch professional, and that she is getting what she pays for. Question is, about how much should she pay?

I really hope someone can come up with some good answers here. I love your sage advice! Thanks!!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 7, 2013)

$2000


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## 412 Burgh (Mar 7, 2013)

Invest in a Paul C Buff Alienbee B800 and a PLM from him. Works like gold.


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## KmH (Mar 7, 2013)

Moved from the Foundations of Photography section's - Beyond the Basics forum, to the Business District section's - General Shop Talk forum.

An online photography forum is not a reliable place to be seeking legal advice. You should consult with a qualified attorney (contract, publication, and copyright law).

1. Tell them you can't do the shoot / or rent what is needed.
2. Since the images will be for advertising a small business, logic points to them being made in and/or around the business or in a studio. Posing is usually done by the photographer since posing relates to lighting. The models may, or may not, know how to pose themselves, and likely know little if anything about photographic lighting. How much posing experience do you have?
3. Who ever writes the contract has a distinct and major advantage. Model releases are a concern for the image publisher. The photographer usually gets them just because the photographer is there when the images are made, not so much because it's the photographer that needs the release. If you use any of the images to promote your 'business' you will also want valid releases signed by any people in the images you use for advertising. Visit U.S. Copyright Office - download and read Circular #9.
4. Pricing varies by region. For commercial photography a creative fee is usually charged for the photographers time, talent, and equipment. Use licensing fees depend on what media types, impressions, size, geographical area, usage length of time, etc. are charged as a separate item.

Visit American Society of Media Photographers and start reading in their *Business Resources* section.
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2007/06/lighting-102-introduction.html
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things 
Best Business Practices for Photographers, Second Edition
ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography
500 Poses for Photographing Women: A Visual Sourcebook for Portrait Photographers
Minimalist Lighting: Professional Techniques for Location Photography
Lighting for Digital Photography: From Snapshots to Great Shots (Using Flash and Natural Light for Portrait, Still Life, Action, and Product Photography)
Master Lighting Guide for Portrait Photographers


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## tirediron (Mar 7, 2013)

Keith pretty much covered all of the main points.  Having looked at the website, I'd say you'd have to work hard NOT to produce better work than they already have, but it sounds like from a business perspective, you may not be fully prepared to take on a commission like this.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 8, 2013)

Are you a professional or not?  If you can't do the job, or have the gear to do it right, stop playing professional.


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## DGMPhotography (Mar 8, 2013)

I may be borrowing the gear to do it. I'm not "playing" professional. Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services. I said that I made sure that they realized they are getting what they paid for, and with a new and small business, that may be all they can afford. I may even like to do it for free depending on location.

Thanks for the advice, Keith and tirediron!


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## jwbryson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> The lady I talked to assumed I would have my own lighting equipment, and I might be able to borrow some, but...



I hate to sound like I'm "piling on" you, but you have been  hired to photograph some models to showcase their products, and you make this comment?  Seriously?  Do you realize how completely unbelievable and unprofessional that sounds?  :roll:

I'm no pro, just a hobbyist, but I'm flabbergasted at this comment.  Good luck.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services.



:lmao::lmao:...........              :lmao::lmao:
:lmao::lmao:...........              :lmao::lmao:

             ..........:lmao:

:lmao: .................:lmao:
   ...:lmao: ...........:lmao:
      ......:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


I think I made my point.


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 8, 2013)

Well your subject heading stated professional shoot. so either you are a professional, you are playing a professional, or you chose a bad subject title.


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## jwbryson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

runnah said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services.
> ...



Indeed.  I'm speechless.


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> I may be borrowing the gear to do it. I'm not "playing" professional. Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services. I said that I made sure that they realized they are getting what they paid for, and with a new and small business, that may be all they can afford. I may even like to do it for free depending on location.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, Keith and tirediron!



This is not something you can figure out on a chat room floor. If you screw this up what will you say ...I just did not have the right equipment Your idea about being in business is very backward and you will never survive going about photography like this.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 8, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Are you a professional or not?  If you can't do the job, or have the gear to do it right, stop playing professional.



Maybe you should have pointed him to THIS thread?


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## ronlane (Mar 8, 2013)

But you spent all that time getting your logo and watermark and your website ready. Maybe you should have been collecting and learning to use lighting gear and posing, shooting......??

Just a thought.


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## Designer (Mar 8, 2013)

There needs to be lots more back and forth talking going on here.  

1.  You rent the lighting, and either you pay or the owner pays for it directly.  If you don't already have the layout designed, ask the owner what she envisions.
2.  Again, talk to the owner.  She is taking the initiative, hiring models, photographer, etc. so get all that from her.
3.  Ask the owner.
4.  Talk it over.  If she is paying the models, supplying the props, clothing, and the space, she is already committing to paying so find out what she was expecting to pay you.

Talk to the owner.


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## Double H (Mar 8, 2013)

This may sting a bit...
After viewing your tumblr site, I would say your work is sub par, at best. Here is why I feel that way; out of focus keyboard shots, overdone HDR, blown-out skies, underexposed subjects, unclear subjects, mostly snapshots, watermark is too intrusive. I think you should back out of this model shoot, let someone who knows what they are doing with lighting, posing, interaction with models, and take note of their every move so you can learn. Believe me, you are biting off waaaay more than your website shows you can chew.


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## jwbryson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Double H said:


> This may sting a bit...
> After viewing your tumblr site, I would say your work is sub par, at best. Here is why I feel that way; out of focus keyboard shots, overdone HDR, blown-out skies, underexposed subjects, unclear subjects, mostly snapshots, watermark is too intrusive. I think you should back out of this model shoot, let someone who knows what they are doing with lighting, posing, interaction with models, and take note of their every move so you can learn. Believe me, you are biting off waaaay more than your website shows you can chew.




I didn't want to say it myself, but there you go.  I have to agree.  Sorry.  I am not liking your images, at least the ones on this website or on your Facebook page.  Keep shooting, by all means, keep shooting, but I'm not sure I'd hang my shingle out yet to get paid.  YMMV.  Just my $0.02.


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## KmH (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services.


That is just one of several definitions of professional. http://www.bing.com/search?setmkt=en-US&q=professional

I believe the one that should be applied to someone that has a business is #3:

*pro·fes·sion·al*
 [ pr&#333; fésh&#601;n'l ] 


of profession: relating to or belonging to a profession
following occupation as paid job: engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby
businesslike: conforming to the standards of skill, competence, or character normally expected of a properly qualified and experienced person in a work environment
Synonyms: specialized, qualified, proficient, skilled, trained, practiced, certified, licensed,expert, career


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 8, 2013)

"I'm going to take on this shoot but I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing." -- more appropriate thread title


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> I may be borrowing the gear to do it. I'm not "playing" professional. Besides, the word professional is defined as someone who receives money for their services. I said that I made sure that they realized they are getting what they paid for, and with a new and small business, that may be all they can afford. I may even like to do it for free depending on location.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, Keith and tirediron!



Do it for free and then call yourself the amateur you are, since according to your definition  it's someone who gets paid for their services.  You took a shoot without have the skills or equipment to do it, yes they are getting what they might pay for.  If you want to kill your business quick, keep doing this.


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## SCraig (Mar 8, 2013)

Ah, the hell with it.

I wrote a bunch of stuff but then deleted it.  It's just not worth arguing with this one any longer.  He is absolutely bound and determined to become a professional photographer before he knows how to use a camera and I'm tired of discussing it.

All I'm going to say is this: There are no "Top-Notch" professionals there are ONLY "Professionals".  You either are or you aren't, there is no middle ground.  If you agree to a professional contract then you are expected to provide professional results.

I'm done here.


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## texkam (Mar 8, 2013)

Check out the track record of this member. He has a history of threads that demonstrate his lack of knowledge, experience, and willingness to learn from this community. When I offered him some very honest criticism in a prior thread, he and others whined about how mean I was and my entries, which were no more harsh than some of the ones in this thread, were censored by a moderator. I see one common denominator here, the OP. My advice to this guy is to start listening to this community learn to mine the wealth of experience contained in it.

And if the mods feel compelled to take down this post for being mean, please leave up the following quote from SCraig ...


> Ah, the hell with it. I wrote a bunch of stuff but then deleted it. It's just not worth arguing with this one any longer.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 8, 2013)

texkam said:


> Check out the track record of this member. He has a history of threads that demonstrate his lack of knowledge, experience, and willingness to learn from this community. When I offered him some very honest criticism in a prior thread, he and others whined about how mean I was and my entries, which were no more harsh than some of the ones in this thread, were censored by a moderator. I see one common denominator here, the OP. My advice to this guy is to start listening to this community learn to mine the wealth of experience contained in it.
> 
> And if the mods feel compelled to take down this post for being mean, please leave up the following quote from SCraig ...



I have to agree. DGM has had a pattern of posts where he's met a lot of resistance from the community here... Not because he's trying to improve his craft, but because he's putting other things before learning the craft. Things like making business cards, building a website, etc. all things that are fine in their own right, but for him they seem to be coming before the development of appropriate knowledge and skill.

Now he's taking assignments, that he's probably not ready for. But no one likes to hear that they are wrong or that they need more practice. So it makes me wonder why he comes here, maybe it's the closest thing to a reality check he gets.


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## tirediron (Mar 8, 2013)

Okay, I think the point has been made!  I suspect that my opinions on people undertaking work they're not qualified for are fairly well known here, but at the same time, there's limited benefit to flogging a dead horse.


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## texkam (Mar 8, 2013)

> no one likes to hear that they are wrong or that they need more practice. So it makes me wonder why he comes here, maybe it's the closest thing to a reality check he gets.


+1 and frankly I'm getting tired of having to walk on eggshells and sugar-coat the wisdom I choose to share.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

texkam said:


> > no one likes to hear that they are wrong or that they need more practice. So it makes me wonder why he comes here, maybe it's the closest thing to a reality check he gets.
> 
> 
> +1 and frankly I'm getting tired of having to walk on eggshells and sugar-coat the wisdom I choose to share.



Wisdom :lmao:


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## jwbryson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Ballistics said:


> texkam said:
> 
> 
> > > no one likes to hear that they are wrong or that they need more practice. So it makes me wonder why he comes here, maybe it's the closest thing to a reality check he gets.
> ...



"I've learned caution.  This comes from wisdom."  (-John Lydon (aka Johnny Rotten)).


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

tirediron said:


> there's limited benefit to flogging a dead horse.



Are you crazy? It's a great work out for your pecs.


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## tirediron (Mar 8, 2013)

Just pretend my last post was in red, bold-face type!


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> texkam said:
> 
> 
> > Check out the track record of this member. He has a history of threads that demonstrate his lack of knowledge, experience, and willingness to learn from this community. When I offered him some very honest criticism in a prior thread, he and others whined about how mean I was and my entries, which were no more harsh than some of the ones in this thread, were censored by a moderator. I see one common denominator here, the OP. My advice to this guy is to start listening to this community learn to mine the wealth of experience contained in it.
> ...



Edit.. content deleted, since I didn't get to Johns* "MOD"* post until after I had posted it... lol!


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## Mully (Mar 8, 2013)

When will everyone be done beating the dead horse..... just let him stew in his own juices.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 8, 2013)

Mully said:


> *When will everyone be done beating the dead horse.*.... *just let him stew in his own juices*.



*Never worked in the past!  lol!*
*Never worked in the past!  lol!*

Color coded response for clarity!


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## snowbear (Mar 8, 2013)

Stewing is one thing, but you still need to tenderize it beforehand - it seems to have worked for that fast-food pseudo Mexican place.


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## Steve5D (Mar 8, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> I have to agree. DGM has had a pattern of posts where he's met a lot of resistance from the community here...



To play Devil's advocate, though, this forum isn't at a loss for people who seem to try to discourage (to put it nicely) anyone from ever getting into photography professionally. Let someone ask "Should I get this lens for wedding photography?", and it won't be long before he's being told to forget about lenses and concentrate on contracts and insurance and get experience second shooting and a litany of other things that pertain exactly "not at all" to the question asked.

That's not exactly what's happened here, I'm just referring to the "resistance from the community" which was mentioned. Simply put, it's quite often misplaced and unnecessary...


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 8, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> That's not exactly what's happened here, I'm just referring to the "resistance from the community" which was mentioned. Simply put, it's quite often misplaced and unnecessary...



I'm going to go out on a branch and say it's because a lot of the more experienced photographers here have an inherent desire to protect the sanctity of professional photography. It seems like it's constantly under assault with the flurry of overnight "pros". 

Also, there's a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality that is prevalent here on this forum; In the sense that once you prove your credibility by showing the forum your work, as long as you're competent and reasonably technically coherent, you receive a lot less of this resistance. _*But,*_ if work is shown and it's laden with technical flaws, displays a lack of understanding of composition, and images are riddled with uneven and amateur processing, then the resistance will exist. In relation to this thread and OP, from what this forum has seen from him, there's a lot of basic skills he still needs to build upon before he should be taking paid assignments. 

You're going to see the most resistance for those who clearly need to improve their craft, but are putting the cart before the horse instead: they are trying to turn pro without the proper skills or understanding.


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## EIngerson (Mar 8, 2013)

The biggest thing I see wrong is you allowed her to "assume" you had all the gear you needed and you don't. You were dishonest with a client. They aren't going to receive the service they asked for and you aren't going to provide the quality you said you would

Does that sound like a good business model to you?


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## Steve5D (Mar 8, 2013)

Rotanimod said:


> I'm going to go out on a branch and say it's because a lot of the more experienced photographers here have an inherent desire to protect the sanctity of professional photography. It seems like it's constantly under assault with the flurry of overnight "pros".



I think the bigger misstep is believing that professional photography is something worthy of being sanctified. It's not. It's a gig, period...



> Also, there's a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality that is prevalent here on this forum...



And that serves little purpose, simply because it chases people away, and being helpful is every bit as easy as being unhelpful (albeit not as much fun)...


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## DGMPhotography (Mar 8, 2013)

Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.


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## EIngerson (Mar 8, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> Rotanimod said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to go out on a branch and say it's because a lot of the more experienced photographers here have an inherent desire to protect the sanctity of professional photography. It seems like it's constantly under assault with the flurry of overnight "pros".
> ...



But it's the internet.....and I'm right.   (This is my sarcasm font)


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## SCraig (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.


Well done.  In my opinion that is the smart thing to do.

Keep in mind that you only get one opportunity per client to make a good impression.  At this point in your career the odds are astronomically against that happening and once you start getting a BAD reputation it will follow you for years.  Learn your trade FIRST and stack the odds in your favor and not against you.


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## runnah (Mar 8, 2013)

Holy **** someone heeded forum advice!!!!!


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## manaheim (Mar 8, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > DGMPhotography said:
> ...



Guys... it's the only thing he said that actually makes sense.  Definitions cannot be subjective in order to be a definition.  His definition is the only one for THAT WORD which is inarguable. (is that a word?)

Is he prepared?  Good god no.

Is he a professional?  As soon as someone hands him a dollar... yes.

All that said, runnah, that smiley thing was totally badass.


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## manaheim (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.



Oh hey wow.

Dude.

I've been here 9 years... I don't think I've seen more than 2-3 people do this. 

Congrats.  Someone give this man a tag or something. 

:hail:


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.



Good call. That's how a professional handles this situation.


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## Ballistics (Mar 8, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.
> ...



Whooaaaa careful with that P word imagemaker


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.



Honestly, just post your best shots here in our galleries and ask for comments and critique.  It's not always fun to have a photo critiqued, but if you learn to grow from it you will ultimately be better.


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## TonysTouch (Mar 8, 2013)

Check out this video when you do start taking professional jobs. It will help you understand you rights and contracts as a photographer.


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## texkam (Mar 9, 2013)

If you can get past the bluntness of some of us, there is a lot of good information and advice for the taking, but it takes an investment. I remember a rather smug guy on another forum who was absolutely terrible; bad posing, lighting, exposure, website, you name it. That community was bluntly honest with him. After several train wreck type posts he was on the brink of lashing out for the last time and leaving. The mods were on the brink as well, but something happened. He stepped back and began to listen. He started to respect the community and their ultimate desire to help him. He became patient, humble. The community reached out. A local invited him to their studio. Someone helped him out with equipment. He started showing improvement and asked more questions. The response by the community is now quite different towards him, for he has earned their respect. He still has a way to go, but he has become a better shooter. He learned how to use that forum. Used correctly and with a grain of salt, this forum can become quite a helpful tool.


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## jamesbjenkins (Mar 9, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Thanks for your comments. Despite what you guys seem to think, I am actually able to take your comments into consideration, and do. I will call her and let her know that perhaps now is not the best time to hire me. Thanks for the support Steve, but in some senses they are right. It is very hard to be humble, so please don't tear this comment apart too, guys. I was presented an opportunity and figured I should jump on it. Perhaps a better thread would have been, "Should I take this job?" So thanks! My friend has a lighting kit he may be letting me borrow to practice with, and I'll look into getting some photography books from the library.



Well holy hell balls... Guess I've seen everything now. :thumbsup: nice to see someone actually take criticism here.


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