# How to deal with critique



## Overread (Dec 21, 2014)

So if you've read my earlier writing here How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C) | Photography Forum you already know how to do your best to get feedback on your photos. You know how to present yourself and even start the process of self critique.

However there is another side of the coin that we all need to learn, its simple, but a few tricks and tips can really help get the best out of it - and that is how to respond to feedback that you've gotten on your photography. So below are a few pointers that you can use which should help you deal with critique and also improve your chances of getting more in the future.


1) Be polite and take the time to say thank you. Yes that sounds really very very basic; but we've all been guilty of coming onto the site (maybe at work or browsing without logging in) and reading our thread, reading the comments and then not saying anything.
Whilst it is not expected, the very least we can do is pause for a moment and post to say thank you to those who have offered up their time and ideas t post and give their feedback - even if its something as short as "Great shot" or "bad shot". Yes we thank those who even don't like our photography because each viewpoint is a valid critique.
This is the first and easiest thing we can do, this simple act of politeness.

2) Don't get upset.
Ok so some people might not like your photos. You might like them - you might have put lots of effort into them. Other people that you know might like them - but all that doesn't matter.
You've posted your photos and asked for peoples honest opinions. In that light a positive or a negative feedback is both equally valid.

3) Learn to separate opinion from reason.
When a person says they like or dislike something that is good, it gives you a base line to work from. When you get critique and comments you'll also likely get  not only an opinion, but also a reasoning for that opinion. So put the opinion to one side for now and read the reasoning behind it. This is the gold mine; this is the key information you really want and will really benefit from. The WHY of an opinion. It's what you came here and posted for.

Now the reasoning will be varied, some of it you might understand and some not. When a person stats a theory or concept as the reason for their like or dislike use that term - ask them about it and also do some research of your own (search the forum/google/books). It's unlikely that in a forum reply you will get a fully detailed outline of a theory or concept; so do some research and you can find articles in various sources which will go into much more depth. Now you've got some structure to your self teaching!

4) Accept that sometimes people will argue.
Yep sometimes people forget themselves and suddenly your photo has generated a mini-argument or disagreement between other members.
Don't panic!

What this means is that you've another gold-mine right in your thread! Yep you really have and you don't even have to take sides or get into the fight.

Because what you have is two strongly opposing viewpoints. So the best thing you can do is to ask for clarification from both parties. Ask them to go into more detail about their viewpoints - get them to explain things - chances are if they are already passionate about their viewpoint and facts that you will get an answer. Now you can gather together those viewpoints - gather up the facts behind them and now you've got some information from which you can make your choice.

5) Always ask for clarification on something you don't understand.
Yep sometimes people will say things that are just going right over your head; that's not a problem not in the least. Simply take a moment to ask them to clarify - or elaborate upon their point more so. It helps to also ask if they could provide a reference or link to further information on their viewpoint (if its based upon a theory).


6) Remember that you don't have to agree with everyone.
You are your own person and its up to you to make your own choices in things. However even  if you don't agree, remember the first point and remain polite. If you must reject an opinion or feedback do so in a polite manner. If there are reasons why you reject it then state them honestly and openly. Best result is that you might generate some discussion which could further your learning.


7) Learn that debate and disagreement need not nor should ever be a fight.
Keep personal comments out of things, even if the other side slings the first insult. Ack professional and stick to the facts and the reasoning. You're here to learn not get drawn into petty arguments so be the leader in your thread and stick to the facts.


But wait wait a sec overread I haven't got any replies yet and I did everything you've suggested too! Do people hate me?

Nope chances are they don't but there are a few tricks that can help matters;

1) Weekends - if you post on a weekend things are slower; people are off doing other things and forum activity dwindles. A bit tip if you want feedback is to not post on weekends - post on weekdays.

2) Wrong time - each site has peek periods where its more active; you can get a rough idea just being around and seeing when the site is most active and when its most dead. So time your threads to match that. That way you've got the most chance of people seeing and responding.

3) Bump the post - if tis been a few days or the post has fallen onto page two of the subsection its in then give it a bump. So long as you're not abusing it mods won't bite you (really we won't - promise). But don't just say "bump". Be specific - ask if there is something wrong or something right - ask again if any have any feed back, no matter how small.






So after all that it sounds like there's a fair bit of work in things; but there isn't. Not really.

Most of it is remaining polite - being respectful and also asking questions. You can also debate and discuss things and when you're learning and talking to other photographers you'll find it a joy to get a little deeper into the subject. Even some of the more dry maths and physics is information you can stash away which might come in handy or at least help you better understand what is going on and why.

So good luck in getting critique and enjoy your talks on the site


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## Rick58 (Dec 21, 2014)

Good post!


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## Fred Berg (Dec 24, 2014)

Very good, however, regarding point 6: Very often people cannot bear to have their critique rejected and take this as a personal insult. Either they don't come back to your threads anymore, or they accuse you of being unable to handle criticism, or they put you on their ignore list, or all three.

Perhaps some guidelines are needed for those offering the critique.


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## EIngerson (Dec 24, 2014)

Great post!


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## EIngerson (Dec 24, 2014)

Fred Berg said:


> Very good, however, regarding point 6: Very often people cannot bear to have their critique rejected and take this as a personal insult. Either they don't come back to your threads anymore, or they accuse you of being unable to handle criticism, or they put you on their ignore list, or all three.
> 
> Perhaps some guidelines are needed for those offering the critique.



Why would that require guidelines?  Sometimes critiques are dead wrong. Some thick skin helps.


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## Fred Berg (Dec 24, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Fred Berg said:
> 
> 
> > Very good, however, regarding point 6: Very often people cannot bear to have their critique rejected and take this as a personal insult. Either they don't come back to your threads anymore, or they accuse you of being unable to handle criticism, or they put you on their ignore list, or all three.
> ...



So that when, for instance, those who've given critique have it rejected by the OP they don't start throwing their toys out of the pram. If the OP is expected to accept critique with good grace, equally those who have offered it should accept that it might not be agreed with.


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## EIngerson (Dec 24, 2014)

Fred Berg said:


> EIngerson said:
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> > Fred Berg said:
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Ummmm, that's what thick skin means? I don't need a regulation to tell me I disagree with someone.


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## Overread (Dec 24, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Ummmm, that's what thick skin means? I don't need a regulation to tell me I disagree with someone.



It's not telling its just advising


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## mmaria (Dec 24, 2014)

Over 




Fred Berg said:


> Very good, however, regarding point 6: Very often people cannot bear to have their critique rejected and take this as a personal insult. Either they don't come back to your threads anymore, or they accuse you of being unable to handle criticism, or they put you on their ignore list, or all three.
> 
> Perhaps some guidelines are needed for those offering the critique.



I actually like to critique. Sometimes, when I don't have the time needed, I give short critiques/opinions whatever. I focus on what needs more work on a picture probably more than I say nice things. I'm trying to change that.

anyway.... some time ago I said this


mmaria said:


> I'm not liking the way you composed both of the shots. be careful of distortion with lines also
> sorry



It was my opinion on one of your pictures. Others liked them, I didn't. Others put more time to write you something, I didn't. I have all rights not to like your pictures, right? Simple as that, it's just my opinion... and yet, you found yourself offended somehow and hit "disagree" button - You didn't explain me why did you disagree with me.
So, point taken, I won't say a thing in your threads, there are plenty of those who will c&c your pictures.

There are so many people who c&c my pictures, said good and bad, and I'm very grateful to them because they took their time and spent it on my picture.


I agree with E.


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## Dagwood56 (Dec 24, 2014)

Fred Berg said:


> Very good, however, regarding point 6: Very often people cannot bear to have their critique rejected and take this as a personal insult. Either they don't come back to your threads anymore, or they accuse you of being unable to handle criticism, or they put you on their ignore list, or all three.
> 
> Perhaps some guidelines are needed for those offering the critique.



I totally agree with this. I tried to remain polite in a recent thread I started where most did not like the photo I posted and when I stated art was subjective and tried to explain my reasons for not agreeing with them, I was told "if you don't want critique don't ask for it then" as well as one member saying I slighted them because I gave a rather bland response to them in trying to remain polite. Another member, who admitted they had never shot the style of photo I had posted, continued to come back time and time again to repeat how bad they thought the image was and to instruct me on how I should have taken it. So as the old saying goes " What's good for the goose is good for the gander" if the OP disagrees with the comments they receive, than the respondents should agree to disagree and move on just as politely!


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## Braineack (Dec 24, 2014)

you forgot: don't blame artist license for your mistakes/flaws


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## Fred Berg (Dec 24, 2014)

mmaria said:


> Over
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> 
> 
> ...



Let's put this in context.

Take the other thread you commented on at around the same time - you remember, the one entitled Vent.
Not a very useful comment from you then since you didn't elaborate why you saw nothing in the shot. Also, ending the comment with "sorry" was unnecessary. Why sorry? Perhaps that was why I used the disagree button without saying anything else. If you don't say why you don't like something, it comes across as if you simply want to run somebody's work down - especially if you never leave any positive feedback where it might, just might have been earned. 

I am only human, and I apologise for the disagree. I will remove it (I had wanted to anyway). 

I hope you will comment again in future.

Anyone who follows my work on TPF will know that I am certainly open to advice and suggestions and that I take this on board where I think it can help me improve. They also know that I will _return to sende_r on occasion. No need to get upset about that - I don't hold grudges.

Anyway back to an important  point I wish to make here. It seems to be true that unless you are prepared to accept all and any comments on your work, however unfounded or wrong you might feel them to be,  you run the risk of being sent to Coventry.

 It is difficult to find a way to answer or deal with critique you don't agree with without coming over as overly defensive or offended. All you can say is thank you and move on. 

However, people care about the photos they make and sometimes doing that is difficult. Therefore it should be clear to the people offering critique that they cannot comment with impunity, that they should always be prepared to back up what they say with valid points, and be prepared to have their thoughts rejected occasionally.

Merry Christmas, all. We celebrate this evening here, so I have to get ready to drive to the Grandparents now and this will be my last post today.


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## mmaria (Dec 24, 2014)

Fred Berg said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > Over
> ...


Hey, I really don't have your disagree anymore!!!

Me happy!







and I'll try to elaborate when c&c



oh... and a thing more...

I simply don't understand the concept of being offended/hurt/attacked and similar when someone says something bad about someone elses photography. 
In my case, I'm not emotionally attached to my photographs.
Bad things are the reasons for improving.
Similar is when someone simply don't like my picture, nothing bad but just don't like it. It's ok!

I really can't remember if I took emotionally anything that has been said before about my pictures (except when it's about good things of course )

Thick skin.
We all like different things.


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## Rick58 (Dec 24, 2014)

I think it's a pride thing. While I don't think I've ever been disrespectful regarding feedback I received, occasionally I used to think "What are you talking about??!!" Funny thing is now I'll look at those same photos and say "Ohhh...That's what they were talking about". I may not have wanted to hear what was being said, but it was heard none the less


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## mmaria (Dec 24, 2014)

Rick58 said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > I simply don't understand the concept of being offended/hurt/attacked and similar when someone says something bad about someone .
> ...


Rick, can you please fix the quote. You quoted a part of my sentence, not the whole sentence. I would probably never say the sentence that is in your quote .

PLS


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## Rick58 (Dec 24, 2014)

Sorry about that. I didn't realize I chopped it off. I couldn't figure out how to fix the quote, so I just deleted it. My error.


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## mmaria (Dec 24, 2014)

Rick58 said:


> Sorry about that. I didn't realize I chopped it off. I couldn't figure out how to fix the quote, so I just deleted it. My error.



it's ok, it's funny actually 

here's the quote


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## The_Traveler (Dec 24, 2014)

There is no real need for the OP to  'disagree' with a c/c.
The OP asks for comments and gets them.
The OP should use what they want and not use what they don't.
Actively 'disagreeing' with a comment seems needlessly ungrateful to me.


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## Overread (Dec 24, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> There is no real need for the OP to  'disagree' with a c/c.
> The OP asks for comments and gets them.
> The OP should use what they want and not use what they don't.
> Actively 'disagreeing' with a comment seems needlessly ungrateful to me.



I don't see how its ungrateful. 
There is no rule nor social expectation that we must accept and agree with all that other people say. Indeed disagreeing is often one of THE most important things. Because its only when someone says "I don't agree with that" that the critical party is often encouraged to pose a more well rounded, more in depth reply or to cite theories or ideas that would support their argument.

If you're intent is to further other peoples understanding through critique then surely them asking questions and not agreeing is key.


Also part of developing in photography (and indeed any art) is moving from being told to doing the telling. To shift from doing what others say and having your own voice to say what you want.


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## EIngerson (Dec 24, 2014)

Can't we all just have thick skin?


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## Overread (Dec 24, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Can't we all just have thick skin?



The admin team forbade us paying for all members to have free skin grafts to increase skin thickness. We thus do advise that members spend as much time as possible doing heavy manual labour


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## The_Traveler (Dec 24, 2014)

Overread said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > There is no real need for the OP to  'disagree' with a c/c.
> ...



Certainly, if asking a question is part of it, then further discussion helps.
A flat 'I don't agree', which I've seen many times, with nothing further is like asking for a gift and then saying you don't like it.


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## bribrius (Dec 24, 2014)

I like when people disagree with me. It makes me think about why and if I might be missing something or not know something. Usually when someone disagrees it means I am about to learn something. I still may not agree with them in the end, but most assuredly I do learn something. Also if someone doesn't agree I could just be wrong. It has been known to happen. in which case I am still learning something.


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## bribrius (Dec 24, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> Overread said:
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> > The_Traveler said:
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hey would you mind looking at my untitled pic I posted? not for subject comment but just processing. I remember that tree and out house pic you posted and would like to see if I could bring my bw to that level with just basic processing and no masks or burning. I am also working on the sharpness/noise reduction still as sleist nailed me on overdoing noise reduction eight months ago, I caught myself doing it again on a photo so clearly I need to pay more attention. Really no clue. On the untitled photo I just zoomed in on the center house in back showing through the trees and moved the sliders a bit until "i dunno I think it looks okay"


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## robbins.photo (Dec 24, 2014)

Ok, so lets compare that to my list.

1.  Have a good cry
2.  Throw a tantrum
3.  Deny everything
4.  Play the "for artistic reasons card"
5.  Go on a killing spree
6.  Have a big plate of Nachos.

Ok, so other than the Nacho's I think they are pretty close.. lol


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## robbins.photo (Dec 24, 2014)

bribrius said:


> I like when people disagree with me.



I couldn't disagree with  you more.

Merry Christmas..

lol


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## robbins.photo (Dec 24, 2014)

Overread said:


> There is no rule nor social expectation that we must accept and agree with all that other people say.



Ya.. geez.  What do you think this is anyway, Canada?

Lol


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## pjaye (Dec 24, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > There is no rule nor social expectation that we must accept and agree with all that other people say.
> ...


.
Hey! Don't go bringing Canada into this! Oh wait, you just gave us a compliment didn't you? Nevermind.


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## pixmedic (Dec 24, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> Overread said:
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> 
> > The_Traveler said:
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often times, C&C, both the asking for critique on ones photo and the giving of critique to someone elses photo, leads to a discussion. whether it is by means of agreement or disagreement, I think posting a photo for C&C is, by its very nature, *asking* for a discussion on said photo. Granted, some people do not want any feedback on their posts and are upset when they get it. Others want the discussion, and are upset when they do not get it. 
Part of the issue is people not being clear about what they want when they post, and part of the issue is people not being clear about what they want to offer when they respond.  Whatever the case, the end result is that we have _*all *_been guilty of giving and receiving critique poorly at some point.  It is the responsibility of everyone involved to moderate their choice of words when they post.

I think one of the best ways you can give C&C , regardless of your own  level of experience, is to say why you answered the way you did. 
I love that photo, because....
I don't like that photo, because....

 Im not saying that simply posting "great shot!" or "not feeling this one" is inherently wrong, if thats how you feel about it, and that's all you want to write...what I _*am *_saying, is that  people posting pictures for critique _*want*_ to know why you like or don't like their work. they _*want*_ the discussion, because learning what is right and wrong with a picture, and learning what people like and dislike about a photo helps us grow as a photographer. 

There is also nothing wrong with the OP disagreeing with someones critique of their work. 
C&C is a discussion, not a one sided argument.  and in discussions, people can disagree. 
However, it is just as important for the OP to remain objective about their work as it is for people
commenting. Both sides need to be open and receptive to varying opinions and suggestions. 
theres no reason we cant be civil, is there?


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## Rick58 (Dec 24, 2014)

I think a big problem is the way some C&C is presented. I've been hearing the term "thick skin" since I joined here and I've never been quite sure why this needs to be a requirement to disccuss critque. This isn't Marine boot camp. There's no need to "toughen up".
I feel being online desensitizes people. I personally try to talk to people as though they are sitting across a table, discussing a photograph over a cup of coffee.


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## Overread (Dec 24, 2014)

I will say for the record that the number of people who fight back against critique is tiny. Many debate or don't agree, but the number of actually rude - actually offensive people is VERY tiny. 

People just remember those 50 page fights a lot more than the dozens of critiques that go well.


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## imagemaker46 (Dec 24, 2014)

Everyone has an opinion on a photograph, some people see things more technical than emotional and their opinions are based on what is "wrong" and less about what is "right"   It is never easy to put personal feelings aside when judging anything, and that is what a critique is.  I've worked as a car show judge for a few decades, but still have cars that are personal favourites, I have to put that a side and look for all the right and wrong in each car.  I look at photographs and even if there are minor flaws, I overlook them if the overall image has all the content and impact that makes me just say "That's a great image"  I don't need to look for the minor, just to find fault.    I know people that judge based purely on technical, and don't agree.   I can look at a $500k show car and find things wrong, if it is a pure physical flaw, a little dust in a $50k paint job.

If a photograph generates a positive emotional reaction from me, I can then look at the reasons why.  Sometimes it can't be put into words.

I also don't enter photo contests.


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## DanOstergren (Dec 25, 2014)

Something that gets to me a lot is when people base their feedback on past photos of mine. I often get "I don't like this because you've posted better work in the past", with no other explanation. Or often times I get "It just isn't doing it for me". 

These sort of responses make me want to break up with this forum, but I just keep coming back. Like herpes. Wait, did I just compare myself to the herp?


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## Overread (Dec 25, 2014)

DanOstergren said:


> . Or often times I get "It just isn't doing it for me".



That's why you have to learn to ask.
Yep its not just as simple as saying "why" sometimes you have to learn to ask specific questions. Many people don't learn the skill to express their ideas in a visual medium. It's not their fault, we don't all study nor learn to be artists. 

So you have to develop and work on learning a skill on asking - to try your best to ask questions to try and tease the views out of them. Even sometimes just asking makes them sit and write their thoughts out more so - even if its just a few. That's the value, but it won't be handed to you on a plate.


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## DanOstergren (Dec 25, 2014)

Overread said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > . Or often times I get "It just isn't doing it for me".
> ...


To be very honest, I would rather ask questions from those who are already giving details to ask about. I notice that these comments are almost 100% from people who have no clue what they are doing with their camera, and to be honest I don't care to hear their reasoning. I used to think everyone's feedback was valid, but I'm making a LOT more progress lately by listening only to those who are actually skilled at the craft and also sincerely want to help me improve, NOT from every Tom, Dick and Harry who are more concerned with letting you know that they don't like your work when they clearly can't create anything decent themselves and have no concern in helping others.


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## Overread (Dec 25, 2014)

That's the advanced lesson - though really its hard to draw a line on who to and who not to listen to. I'd still advise as wide a breadth as possible as to the range of views you listen to. 

If you listen only to compliments then even if those offering them are not sycophants then you are still leaving yourself open to a risk. That risk is the fact that you'll repeat yourself. You already said that you dislike when someone says "This isn't like your previous work" yet in the same breath you're saying that you might discount those who might not like your work (though I do note that you make mention that its those who have a shorter way of speaking than those with a longer explanation). 

In the end though we all make our choices on who to and who not to listen to. It's a complex area to consider in itself as to who is "Worth" listening to made more complex in that no single person is going to be a universal yes or no. 

Though as a measure of attitude I'd consider that most on a forum - even if they don't write very much - are eager to further the understanding of others; or at least to share their views and experiences. I'd wager that the number who post only to disparage others are so tiny as to be insignificant.


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## sashbar (Dec 25, 2014)

DanOstergren said:


> Something that gets to me a lot is when people base their feedback on past photos of mine. I often get "I don't like this because you've posted better work in the past", with no
> 
> 
> DanOstergren said:
> ...



Dan, this is a public forum, not a photography school, and the c&c process is more of a conversation where members who give critique when looking at a good photo often learn more in the process than the op.  I do agree that listening to less experienced members is often a waste of time ( a friend of mine who is a newspaper reporter says "Do not listen to anyone unless you have seen his work") but such are the rules of the game here. By posting your images you give as much as you take, and in your case you often give more than you take.  If it is not what you want then probably you need a more efficient and utilitarian way to improve your impressive skills even further. Single minded earners and career makers always try to be with those who are better, not worse, and this is effective. But bear in mind that people who are weaker photographers will always be grateful for your input. If you do not care about it then you are definitely wasting your time here. I am sure that you understand it, and if you still keep coming back then...


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## DanOstergren (Dec 25, 2014)

Overread said:


> That's the advanced lesson - though really its hard to draw a line on who to and who not to listen to. I'd still advise as wide a breadth as possible as to the range of views you listen to.
> 
> If you listen only to compliments then even if those offering them are not sycophants then you are still leaving yourself open to a risk. That risk is the fact that you'll repeat yourself. You already said that you dislike when someone says "This isn't like your previous work" yet in the same breath you're saying that you might discount those who might not like your work (though I do note that you make mention that its those who have a shorter way of speaking than those with a longer explanation).
> 
> ...


I never said I only listen to compliments. What I'm saying is that I listen to those who are clearly intent on helping, who have something to teach. To me, "I don't like it because you've done better" isn't helpful. It's lazy. Lazy feedback is not helpful and never will be.


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## DanOstergren (Dec 25, 2014)

sashbar said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > Something that gets to me a lot is when people base their feedback on past photos of mine. I often get "I don't like this because you've posted better work in the past", with no
> ...


Well seeya later then.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 25, 2014)

There were a couple of points made earlier than stuck with me.

It is someones difficult to say why a picture is striking or pleasant or interesting; the impact may have nothing at all to do with the technical issues. On the other hand, many people here are still working at getting all the technical issues in sync with their creative efforts and when a picture fails, it is easier, and less embarrassing, for the critic to point out the technical issues which can be corrected.  

When I am the poster and someone doesn't like what I did, I try to help them to winkle out why it is they don't like it. That a 'teaching moment.'


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## imagemaker46 (Dec 26, 2014)

I don't get many critiques on the images I post, but then I also don't ask for them.   So this is a comment that would be directed at others who look for critiques.  What I personally find frustrating are the critiques that have nothing to do with the image as a whole, but a nit pick on one element that has no baring one way or the other.  Many critiques are coming from less experienced people, but they feel adding their own pointless thoughts is going to help.  It is difficult to critique some images without knowing what the limitations were when the image was shot, an example being "That photo would be much better if you moved to the left 5 feet" the problem being that 5 feet to the left, is 4 feet off the cliff.  

I offer suggestions based on my skill and experience and understand that without myself standing in the same place, working with the same light, I don't know if the image could be improved.  I think this is also where less experienced people offering up critiques can annoy and upset the photographer.  I don't have a problem telling someone that a picture is really very average, or should not have kept as it isn't sharp, if the technical side of the image fails drastically, but I will give a reason.

Most of the regulars on here know that I don't back down when I make a statement about an image, most people appreciate what I say based on my experience, just as I read critiques one here by others that are very well stated and helpful.  When there is confrontation because of a negative, but useful critique, it usually becomes a personal battle from someone that has their own skill issues.  Not every image shot is amazing and people should never expect to be told that.  I have learned over the years that I have probably produced more average images than anyone else on the  forum, based on the hundreds of thousands os images I have shot.  

I've had my images critiqued by my Dad for decades, I didn't always agree, but deep down always knew he was right, and I learned from it. As long as we learn from a critique it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.


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## shefjr (Dec 26, 2014)

DanOstergren said:


> "I don't like this because you've posted better work in the past", with no other explanation. Or often times I get "It just isn't doing it for me".



For me when I read this I feel as though these responses are at least somewhat tied together. I would interpret those responses to mean that I have been able to evoke some sort of emotional response in the past and now it's expected everytime. I know c&c is supposed to be about the photo that is being looked at in that moment but, I could see how someone might come to expect a certain level of work based on past performance. I know for me personally, I have looked at photos that have given me the "WOW!" factor, but don't know how it's created and wouldn't be able to explain why one particular photo doesn't have it. All I could say is it's just not doing it for me. That said, I usually don't respond at all if the photo isn't doing anything for me because I know that isn't helpful and I can't elaborate on that feeling. 
Just my two cents FWIW.


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## pgriz (Dec 26, 2014)

Critiquing is a skill set, just as photography requires a skill set.  Some do it better than others.  It is non-trivial to analyse one's own reaction to an image and to understand why you have that reaction.  Then to translate this into something that is meaningful and useful to others, whether the OP or another viewer, again requires communication skills, discernment and judgement.  Add to the mix the egos (both of the OP and the critique giver), the motivations, and the politics of the internet, and it's hard sometimes to get a clear reading of what actually is being said.

Personally, the comments I get on my photography have to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.  Friendships can influence how a critique is expressed.  So can a person's love for, or distaste for a given approach.  So can one's experience (or lack of).  It also helps to know which posters are masters at which art forms.  If Majeed, for instance, critiques one of my landscapes, I will give his ideas and comments quite a bit of weight, as I regard him as a master at that form.  Same for Scott, if he critiques a sports or journalistic image.


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

Oh look….this threads still here.


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## shefjr (Dec 26, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Oh look….this threads still here.


I was thinking about your "thick skin comments" which I do agree with. That said, I had a c&c requested (a couple years back) and there were comments directed at the model. "Wow! Too young!" "I better wipe my cookies" "I'm afraid the FBI may knock down the door due to the age of this girl". She is my niece, 18 and she is youthful looking. I don't think that was a case where I needed "thick skin". I took that to be a fun pile from members here. I don't think there was a need to judge the age because that isn't a controllable part of the photograph. For me that ruined the helpful c&c that was given and I have since stopped posting any images up at all.


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## Rick58 (Dec 26, 2014)

Hey, don't let one bad experience stop you from posting. Heck, if that was the case, I would have taken up knitting for a hobby long ago


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

shefjr said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > Oh look….this threads still here.
> ...



Maybe you forgot this is a public internet forum. That said, it doesn't matter what your content was. People will post anything they want. From sarcasm to racism. By posting on a public internet forum (like this one) you subject yourself to that. GET THICK SKIN!

You can post what you want, and maybe for a short time until its moderated, they can post what they want.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You don't have to agree with me. I won't be upset.


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## shefjr (Dec 26, 2014)

@Eric, I started to write out a response but I know the response from you would still have been to "get thicker skin", lol, so... I'll agree with you that I guess my skin isn't thick enough and just continue on my merry way.


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

shefjr said:


> @Eric, I started to write out a response but I know the response from you would still have been to "get thicker skin", lol, so... I'll agree with you that I guess my skin isn't thick enough and just continue on my merry way.



lol, You're probably right about my response. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck with that response, but I deal in reality. You just can't control peoples free will and you have to take what's valuable to you out of peoples responses. If not…..well, you know. I hope you had a Merry Christmas (if you celebrate it) and have a great New Year.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 26, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Maybe you forgot this is a public internet forum.



Really?  Huh.  Can we double check that because it sounds like some sort of crazy conspiracy theory.. lol



> That said, it doesn't matter what your content was. People will post anything they want. From sarcasm to racism. By posting on a public internet forum (like this one) you subject yourself to that. GET THICK SKIN!
> 
> You can post what you want, and maybe for a short time until its moderated, they can post what they want.
> 
> Oh yeah, one last thing. You don't have to agree with me. I won't be upset.



Well I don't expect much civility from a certain segment of the internet population, that's for certain.


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

Rick58 said:


> Hey, don't let one bad experience stop you from posting. Heck, if that was the case, I would have taken up knitting for a hobby long ago



I heard there's a pretty rowdy crowd in the knitting forums.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 26, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, don't let one bad experience stop you from posting. Heck, if that was the case, I would have taken up knitting for a hobby long ago
> ...



Well considering that most of them are over there learning how to knit shiv cozies.. um.. ya.  Not the sort of folks you probably want to mess with.. lol


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > Rick58 said:
> ...



lol, Shiv cozies…..I'll have to remember that.


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## shefjr (Dec 26, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> shefjr said:
> 
> 
> > @Eric, I started to write out a response but I know the response from you would still have been to "get thicker skin", lol, so... I'll agree with you that I guess my skin isn't thick enough and just continue on my merry way.
> ...



I get what your'e saying and 100% agree with your above sentences. I was shook over certain members whose opinion I valued and have nothing more than age slams about my image and no valuable critique. I hid in the background of TPF for months just reading people's C&C to see who had valuable critique and when I finally stepped out, those well known members slapped me like a ***** about age and gave little to no critique. Lol! Age isn't something I could control and some of it was coming from the members who I had come to trust and respect. From that, it made me wonder how or why should I listen to anyone here on the interwebz. If that's the case then why take any of it seriously? From that point on I have really only been here to give my honest opinion on photos that others make.
Merry Christmas to you too and thank you for your service!


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## Overread (Dec 26, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> . People will post anything they want. From sarcasm to racism.



No, no they can't. 
This is a privately run forum with rules, admin and moderators. Anyone who wants to try racism or such can have a go - and then they can have a long break from the site for doing so.


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## pgriz (Dec 26, 2014)

@ shefjr:  I think you tripped across an emotional trigger.  Hard to know in advance where those triggers are located.  If the reaction has little to do with the specific image, and more with the associations invoked by the image, then you've found a trigger.  In general trolls love triggers, as they can use them to make people do irrational things.  Recognize them for what they are, and remind yourself that rationality went out the window when the trigger was activated.


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## EIngerson (Dec 26, 2014)

Overread said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > . People will post anything they want. From sarcasm to racism.
> ...



Please quote the entire post and you'll see that I covered that.

And just because someone has to approve your membership doesn't make it a "private" forum. It's the internet.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 26, 2014)

pgriz said:


> @ shefjr:  I think you tripped across an emotional trigger.  Hard to know in advance where those triggers are located.  If the reaction has little to do with the specific image, and more with the associations invoked by the image, then you've found a trigger.  In general trolls love triggers, as they can use them to make people do irrational things.  Recognize them for what they are, and remind yourself that rationality went out the window when the trigger was activated.



Well either that or you could spend a period of quiet introspection followed by the ritualistic removal of their spleen with a rusty fork.  You know, just as an alternative suggestion.. lol


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## DanOstergren (Dec 26, 2014)

shefjr said:


> @Eric, I started to write out a response but I know the response from you would still have been to "get thicker skin", lol, so... I'll agree with you that I guess my skin isn't thick enough and just continue on my merry way.


Yep, right there with you. I think my time in this site is done. Fstoppers has been a lot more educational for me and I've made leaps and bounds of improvement from the advice given by the professionals there, as well as from my personal mentors recently. Whereas here I feel boxed in and completely limited. I'm done posting here; I think it's time to reach higher than public forum and work harder to reach my own goals.


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## KenC (Dec 26, 2014)

DanOstergren said:


> I'm done posting here; I think it's time to reach higher than public forum and work harder to reach my own goals.



I'm always sorry to see someone talented leave.  There are a lot of photography groups, online and off, and they all have their shortcomings, like anything else.  However, all of them also have some worthwhile aspects.  I hope you at least come back and visit.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 26, 2014)

> I was shook over certain members whose opinion I valued and have nothing more than age slams about my image and no valuable critique. I hid in the background of TPF for months just reading people's C&C to see who had valuable critique and when I finally stepped out, those well known members slapped me like a ***** about age and gave little to no critique.
> 
> Lol! Age isn't something I could control and some of it was coming from the members who I had come to trust and respect. From that, it made me wonder how or why should I listen to anyone here on the interwebz. If that's the case then why take any of it seriously? From that point on I have really only been here to give my honest opinion on photos that others make.
> Merry Christmas to you too and thank you for your service!



@shefjr

I would never have looked into this except your feelings were so badly hurt and I wondered what had been said and so I went back and found the thread you are referring to and, imo, in that thread you received honest and kind comments.
In fact you thanked everyone for what they said.
If you were upset, you should not have left it that way to stew so long and hurt your involvement.


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## Ian63 (Dec 27, 2014)

I have  read  through this  entire  thread, and  first of  all I will say... very informative.... a  window  into how  we  all perceive our  experiences and  talent. Secondly I will say this. I am well aware, even tho I have  had cameras in hand  for  many years, that I have  my own style... my OWN  being the  operative  word  here.
I am also aware  that everyone  has  the  right to an opinion, and  if I was  afraid of, or  refused  to acknowledge every opinion that I didn't agree  with; I personally would be  aware that I was  a  narrow  minded slow  learner.. that I would have  gained very little broad  experience. My BEST critique comes  from a  long time  friend and  talented  street photographer. This  lady is a  free spirit, and  she insists on staying with her  priorities, but this  does  not stop here  from being totally honest with what she  likes and  does  not like  about other people's work. The  point is, from MY perspective, if  you are emotionally attached to a  photograph then don't ask for critique. When we  attach our  seal of approval to anything in an emotional manner, we  are guaranteed to be closed  to alternate opinion or  observations. Just my 0.02


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## The_Traveler (Dec 27, 2014)

pgriz said:


> Critiquing is a skill set, just as photography requires a skill set.  Some do it better than others. * It is non-trivial to analyse one's own reaction to an image and to understand why you have that reaction.*  Then to translate this into something that is meaningful and useful to others, whether the OP or another viewer, again requires communication skills, discernment and judgement.





Ian63 said:


> The  point is, from MY perspective, if  you are emotionally attached to a  photograph then don't ask for critique. When we  attach our  seal of approval to anything in an emotional manner, we  are guaranteed to be closed  to alternate opinion or  observations. Just my 0.02



Two very good comments.

Understanding why you like/dislike a picture and being able to express that is a crucial learning experience because that applies directly one's own work.

When the text accompanying a picture tells me that the maker is really invested in the subject or the image, I know that any negative statements stand a good chance of being rejected. A crucial step is being able to separate yourself from even your well loved images so you can look at them objectively or at least hear comments objectively.


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## Peeb (Dec 4, 2015)

Based upon the hyperlink in overread's sig, I just came upon this thread.

My own personal experience: I've recently concluded that  if I am pleased with an image, I probably won't post it here as I am emotionally attached to it and I really don't WANT to hear what is wrong with it.  For some, it is irresistible to point out the 'flaw' in an image, and (this may sound odd to some) that is not always what I need.

Conversely, if I am unhappy with an image, this forum is a fantastic resource for getting to the bottom of what is technically or artistically wrong.  I will happily post those images and get great help, invariably.  

Some will argue, logically, that this will stunt my artistic growth to refrain from subjecting my prize images from critique.  I think the globe will continue to rotate if Peeb chooses happy over perfect.


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## Overread (Dec 4, 2015)

Peeb all I will say is don't forget that there is the "just for fun" section where you can post photos without getting any critique back : )


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## The_Traveler (Dec 4, 2015)

Peeb said:


> For some, it is irresistible to point out the 'flaw' in an image, and (this may sound odd to some) that is not always what I need.
> 
> Conversely, if I am unhappy with an image, this forum is a fantastic resource for getting to the bottom of what is technically or artistically wrong. I will happily post those images and get great help, invariably.
> 
> Some will argue, logically, that this will stunt my artistic growth to refrain from subjecting my prize images from critique



If photography is a way to communicate, what comments/critiques point out is where the image falls short in communicating to others. 
If you don't want to improve your abilities then the Just for Fun section is perfect.


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## astroNikon (Dec 4, 2015)

Peeb said:


> Based upon the hyperlink in overread's sig, I just came upon this thread.
> 
> My own personal experience: I've recently concluded that  if I am pleased with an image, I probably won't post it here as I am emotionally attached to it and I really don't WANT to hear what is wrong with it.  For some, it is irresistible to point out the 'flaw' in an image, and (this may sound odd to some) that is not always what I need.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you.
For some of my portrait stuff I email a mentor directly.

fyi,  I like your avatar
though it's underexposed and OOF a bit


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## Peeb (Dec 4, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> > For some, it is irresistible to point out the 'flaw' in an image, and (this may sound odd to some) that is not always what I need.
> ...


Good to know.


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