# Food Photography Question?



## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

There is a guy that owns a cafe/restaurant and he wants me to take some images for him.. I've never done food photography before but I said I can give it a go.. But he wants me to take the images just before they get served to the customer. And I said no that he has to cook the food and I'll take the images I said that I can't just get the photo that quick, I need to get the right composition and everything else he said he can't waste the food I said its not wasting the food if your going to end up with a good image that you can use and will last for a long time rather than a quick snapshop just before its served. Am I right with that ?


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## mmaria (Apr 2, 2014)

if the conversation between the two of you looked like your writing here then I would say that neither of you is right.

he doesn't understand what it takes for a good food photograph.
you seem to don't understand how to approach this job.

I can't tell more because I don't know anything about your work. You could be a great photographer or not. 

anyway, that's jmho


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## Designer (Apr 2, 2014)

Somebody is going to be eating cold food.


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## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

mmaria said:


> if the conversation between the two of you looked like your writing here then I would say that neither of you is right.
> 
> he doesn't understand what it takes for a good food photograph.
> you seem to don't understand how to approach this job.
> ...



I didn't say it as blunt as that lol it was just the gist of it..


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## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I can't tell more because I don't know anything about your work. You could be a great photographer or not.
> 
> anyway, that's jmho



I think my images are good I spend a lot of time getting things right and a lot more time in post.. But they usually turn out how I like them...


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## NjStacker22 (Apr 2, 2014)

I completely agree. If he's not willing to "waste" some food for the photos I don't think I would do it. He wants to rush you to get your shot and ultimately, if they do not come out looking the way they should it's going to be your fault. You could always have him wrap the food up for you to take home so it's not being "wasted"


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## Steve5D (Apr 2, 2014)

I wouldn't spend a lot of time on this gig. 

There's no way to give the guy quality work if your subject is in transit to a hungry customer. You might get a good shot here or there, but those will be sporadic. It's simply not something which will happen with any measurable degree of consistency.

If this is a pro bono or barter gig, I'd just walk. You won't get acceptable results and, as Njstacker22 has mentioned, it will be all your fault. If this is a paying gig, the restaurant owner needs to understand that just as his cooks and servers get paid because they know how to do their job, so should you be paid because you know how to do yours. 

If he's not going to allow you the latitude to do your job the way you know it needs to be done, then this will end badly. Remember, he came to you.

If he insists on the "take this photo before the meal is served" approach, I'd shake his hand, thank him for considering me for the job, and walk...


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## tirediron (Apr 2, 2014)

Pretty much what Steve said; search YouTube; I can't remember which one, but one of the preeminent food photographers has posted a short 'behind the scenes' video of a hamburger shoot for McDonald's - I don't remember numbers, but there is one scene where you see an entire table covered in buns and such just to get ONE image of a hamburger.  In short, the food that is used for advertising is NOT "wasted", it's part of the cost of doing business.


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## Steve5D (Apr 2, 2014)

I would imagine that, if the guy charges, say, $10.00 for a sandwich, that he's looking at it as a loss of $10.00. 

Instead, he needs to look at it as an advertising investment of the $2.00 it costs him to buy the ingredients of that sandwich...


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## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> I would imagine that, if the guy charges, say, $10.00 for a sandwich, that he's looking at it as a loss of $10.00.
> 
> Instead, he needs to look at it as an advertising investment of the $2.00 it costs him to buy the ingredients of that sandwich...



Exactly, its 100% greed.. And prior to asking me to take the images he said that he asked a friend with a good quality camera on his phone to take some pictures but he didn't like them and obviously there not gonna be the same quality.


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## KmH (Apr 2, 2014)

You might find this helpful - Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com


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## Steve5D (Apr 2, 2014)

danial said:


> Exactly, its 100% greed.



No, it's not greed. It's simply a matter of him looking at it from the wrong budget.

He's a business man. Don't fault him for recognizing that he won't be able to sell a ten dollar sandwich. That's his business. That's how he earns a living. I don't know a single small business owner who isn't concerned about every last nickel coming in and going out. Calling it "greed" is remarkably short-sighted on your part.

Your job is to make him understand that it's worth the $2.00 investment. You won't ever be able to do that if you don't have an appreciation for the fact that a business owner needs to be mindful of everything, including his inability to sell a ten dollar sandwich. That sandwich represents $8.00 profit for him. That eight bucks goes to his overhead; paying employees, buying supplies and food, paying the electric bill, etc. That $8.00 profit helps him stay in business. 

Dismissing it as greed suggests that you may not be the person to help him understand that it's not the loss of $8.00 but, rather, the investment of $2.00...



> And prior to asking me to take the images he said that he asked a friend with a good quality camera on his phone to take some pictures but he didn't like them and obviously there not gonna be the same quality.



Um... So what?

That's absolutely meaningless, simply because it doesn't pertain to you _at all_. Don't be concerned with what someone else did. Do what _you _do. Let the restaurant owner worry about what somone else did...


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## Braineack (Apr 2, 2014)

danial said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I would imagine that, if the guy charges, say, $10.00 for a sandwich, that he's looking at it as a loss of $10.00.
> ...




it's not greed. and there's nothing wrong with being greedy.


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 2, 2014)

danial said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I would imagine that, if the guy charges, say, $10.00 for a sandwich, that he's looking at it as a loss of $10.00.
> ...



 Greed is good.       People don't start businesses out of some altruistic impulse, they do it to make money.  They make money by providing the best service/product they can, at a price their customers are willing to pay.   That doesn't mean they don't care about their customers, if they didn't care, they wouldn't be in business very long. 

Most people not involved with photography have no idea just what is _actually_ involved with good photography.    Rather than just dismiss him, it usually helps to explain exactly what goes into a proper food shoot, and what the benefits are.   Your average small business owner is a "one man band" of sorts.   They tend to know their specialty very well, but the ins and outs of advertising/marketing are often a mystery.  To this guy, he thinks it's just a matter of having a good camera and taking the picture.  This isn't any different than most peoples point of view.  It's up to you to demonstrate the benefits, that's part of _selling your service_.   

For example:  If you were to bring your car into a dealership and they said you needed brakes, with an estimate of $250: you could easily point out that the Grease Monkey down the street will do it for $80.   At this point a competent service writer would be able to explain to you exactly how the product and service offered at the Grease Monkey are inferior to what they offer, and exactly how that inferiority will effect you as a consumer.    They don't expect you to get it right away; they expect to have to explain it.  It's part of educating the consumer, and educating the consumer is often a prerequisite to making the sale.


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## curtyoungblood (Apr 2, 2014)

Just tell him that you'll pay for his $10 sandwich so that you can take all the time you need to photograph it and then add $20 to your fee.


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## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> danial said:
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> 
> > Exactly, its 100% greed.
> ...


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 2, 2014)

You said you've never done food photography, so it seems you don't know what would be involved in doing this to be able to explain it or to be able to do it. I'm an experienced photographer but not in food photography, I'd decline and/or possibly refer him elsewhere.


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## danial (Apr 2, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> You said you've never done food photography, so it seems you don't know what would be involved in doing this to be able to explain it or to be able to do it. I'm an experienced photographer but not in food photography, I'd decline and/or possibly refer him elsewhere.



Ya never done food photography before but have looked into it and would be pretty confident in getting a good result.. Like I said I was going to do it for free to build my portfolio but don't think he would be intresed in paying a professional. I'm just gonna leave it though I did explain to him why I needed the time to take the images with lighting composition but to be honest it felt like it was falling on deaf ears.


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## Steve5D (Apr 2, 2014)

danial said:


> It is greed. As you say he's a business man he knows why he wants the images to get more business to advertise his restaurant promote his food.. Its not a question of convincing him that he is not losing out,  he knows the images are going to promote his business. So being more concerned of the fact that he lost the 10 euro for the sandwhich rather than promoting his business is greed. And he isn't even paying me I'm doing it for free to build my portfolio so he hasn't even got the expence of paying for me to do the work so it is 100% greed. And he's not struggling in his business by any means.



I'm a little confused why you started this thread. 

Did you want people to only agree with you; that he was being unreasonable and greedy? Well, if you weren't wrong, that might happen. But you are wrong. Sure, he may be unreasonable, but he's not greedy. He's concerned about the health of his business. Clearly, you don't have an appreciation for what it takes to operate a small business. You've gotten sound suggestions here but, apparently, you want to ignore them because they're not lock-step with what you _think _you know.

Good luck, Chief. You're gonna' need it...


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## hotdrop (Apr 3, 2014)

Everybody wants something for nothing, and you didn't explain to him that there is no free lunch and that even for a free photoshoot he needs to invest some materials to get the job done. You should have probably framed it more as an exchange - he provides articles for photography, you take pictures and provide photos. He gets something of value for reduced cost but its not free.

 That being said food for photos and food for eating are not the same thing. My understanding is that you need to undercook the food in order to get color and shape to be better and more vivid. The food needs to be specially prepared for the purpose of the shoot with extensive attention to detail, you cant use just any old meal you might serve a customer. Also shooting hot steaming food is going to cause havoc with your lighting. Failing that you are going to get a sub par result with food looking unappealing.


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## danial (Apr 3, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> danial said:
> 
> 
> > It is greed. As you say he's a business man he knows why he wants the images to get more business to advertise his restaurant promote his food.. Its not a question of convincing him that he is not losing out,  he knows the images are going to promote his business. So being more concerned of the fact that he lost the 10 euro for the sandwhich rather than promoting his business is greed. And he isn't even paying me I'm doing it for free to build my portfolio so he hasn't even got the expence of paying for me to do the work so it is 100% greed. And he's not struggling in his business by any means.
> ...




How can you say what he's concerned about ? And assuming its a small business when its not. Your assuming all these things from no where.. Portraying that's he's trying to get by and just earn a living and he's not being greedy.. Where in actual fact he has more than 1 restaurant and they are thriving. So don't know where your getting your poor business man concerned about the health of his business.. And at the end of the day you don't know the conversation I had with him what he said or how he came accross.. I think I have a better judgement of if he's greedy or not after the conversation I had with him.. You shouldn't assume


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## Steve5D (Apr 3, 2014)

danial said:


> Steve5D said:
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> > danial said:
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Yeah, because I've never done this before.

In the same post in which you tell me that I shouldn't assume, you present your assumption that he's well off. You seem to believe that having more than one restaurant equates to wild success. It doesn't, and I know more than one restaurant owner, with more than one restaurant, who would vehemently disagree with you. 

You're not the guy for this job. You can't approach a job with the mindset that the client is wealthy and greedy, but it's pretty clear that's the conclusion you've reached. The bottom line is that you're not prepared to show him that there's a value in what you can provide. If you don't do that, there's no reason for him to agree with you, and certainly no reason for him to ever hire you. 

You take issue with his being "greedy", yet you were willing to do the gig for free if he gave you more time to do the shoot, thereby further enabling the very greed you say you have such a problem with.

And how can I say what he's concerned with? Well, I own a small business. I have many friends who own small businesses, including restaurants. I know what _our _concerns are. I've also worked for small businesses, both as an employee and a contractor. I've watched the money come in and the money go out. I've made the decisions for what to buy for my business and what not to buy. I've worked with small business owners as a vendor, watching them struggle with choosing what items to stock and what not to stock. I've worked with them to show them that it was smart to stock what I was selling, while being mindful of the fact that even my biggest, multi-million dollar clients didn't have bottomless pockets. Along with being a pretty good photographer and having some business smarts, I've learned to read people and be proactive to getting them to see things my way, instead of having to react to them wanting me to see things _their _way.

In short, I have what you may be lucky enough to have one day: _Experience_...


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## HitenNainaney (Apr 3, 2014)

All I can say is that from a financial and economic standpoint, any business ranging from 50-500 employees would be considered as a small business. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitenNainaney (Apr 3, 2014)

And with regards to what you should do, my suggestion is: walk away. 

You can't get a good picture without preparation and without spending time. 

I was lucky enough to be a part of an ice cream company's shoot and I can tell you this. 

They send us 25 gallons of strawberry ice cream for 2 photographs. 

That would give you an idea as to how much preparation is put into food photography. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NjStacker22 (Apr 3, 2014)

Lots of opinions around here.... :er:


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## pjaye (Apr 3, 2014)

I worked at a restaurant many years ago and my cheesecake (that I made, not photographed) was featured in print and tv ads. Holy crap a lot of work went into it. Especially when some noob left it under a hot light. It's cheesecake....it melted. 

I can't remember how many cheesecake plates I made but it took a few hours for them to get the shots they wanted.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 3, 2014)

My husband is a chef and the wait staff take cell phone shots of the food plates just before the food goes out to the table, for their menus or flyers etc. Perhaps that's all your guy really wants done. Now if he wants photos for print ads in quality magazines then I'd say he needs to step back and agree to let you take the time to set up the shots properly....I'm thinking he probably wants the former, unless he has a 5 star award winning establishment.


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## Derrel (Apr 3, 2014)

danial said:


> There is a guy that owns a cafe/restaurant and he wants me to take some images for him.. I've never done food photography before but I said I can give it a go.. But he wants me to take the images just before they get served to the customer. And I said no that he has to cook the food and I'll take the images I said that I can't just get the photo that quick, I need to get the right composition and everything else he said he can't waste the food I said its not wasting the food if your going to end up with a good image that you can use and will last for a long time rather than a quick snapshop just before its served. Am I right with that ?



The guy's a flipping idiot. Ten bucks says working for him/with him will be a pain in the ass like you cannot BELIEVE!

"Wasting food"...??? What a moron. Penny-wise and pound foolish, he has no idea which end is up.


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## danial (Apr 3, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> danial said:
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> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



No I was doing it for free from the beginning not if he gave me more time.. And I'm not assuming he is wealthy, I know he is. I live in a small enough town everyone knows everyone and he's known for being rich with his huge house and wealthy family let alone his business being jam packed.. And I did explain to him why I needed more time and like I said before he already knows why he wants the images to attract more business and to hang in the restaurant.. And with the experience thing its not to do with luck everyone gains experience.. Through trial and error. And as for you saying that I approaches the job with the mindset of him being wealthy and greedy firstly I know he is wealthy and second I didn't think he was greedy until it got to the point when he started saying about wasting food.


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## danial (Apr 3, 2014)

*


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## Steve5D (Apr 3, 2014)

danial said:


> Steve5D said:
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> > danial said:
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Whatever. You're ill-prepared for this undertaking. 

Here's the bottom line: He comes to you. You tell him how you need to shoot it. He either agrees or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you move on; no harm no foul.

A former employer of mine bought a Hawker 850XP for $7 million. The business bought that. It made sense for the business to spend that money on a jet. We could get from San Diego to New York in a little over four hours. Some jet salesman somewhere was able to convince the owners of the company that it was a wise investment.

The two owners of the company also happen to be fabulously wealthy. One has a fleet of Porsches, and he keeps them in a warehouse right next to his six Ferraris. The other keeps a fully loaded Land Cruiser in Asia for when he feels like going camping. He bought a boat and wrote a check for it for $1.2 million. Both of them, though, watch their money very closely. If they don't believe there's a good reason to spend money, they won't do it. 

Is that greed?

No, it's called "being smart".

I'm not saying that the restaurant owner is a genius, but he needs to be shown why there's a value in him spending the money on food for you to photograph. Simply put, you've failed to show him that value. Instead of accepting that you may well have fallen short, you lay the blame on him for being "greedy". I'm confident he could be turned to your way of thinking, providing it was someone other than you trying to turn him. I'm not trying to be demeaning, but you clearly don't have the chops for that...


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## epeddy1 (Apr 3, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Whatever. You're ill-prepared for this undertaking.
> 
> Here's the bottom line: He comes to you. You tell him how you need to shoot it. He either agrees or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you move on; no harm no foul.
> 
> ...



Lol at going from spending money on a burger to private jets.  Don't get too carried away defending your opinion.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call him greedy because of this situation.  Greed is wanting everything and more.  I'd call this guy extremely and unreasonably frugal.


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## Steve5D (Apr 3, 2014)

epeddy1 said:


> Lol at going from spending money on a burger to private jets.  Don't get too carried away defending your opinion.



The point being made is that, regardless of the amount of money, a wise business owner won't spend it unless he sees a value in it. The OP has illustrated that he's failed to show this particular business owner that there's a value in what can be provided to him. The reason the business owner hasn't seen that value isn't because he's greedy, but because the OP hasn't been able to show him the value...



> For what it's worth, I wouldn't call him greedy because of this situation.  Greed is wanting everything and more.  I'd call this guy extremely and unreasonably frugal.



I get the "extremely" part, but unreasonable? As much as I think it would serve the guy well to throw down a few bucks for what will amount to photo supplies, the fact remains that it's _his _business. 

The OP has said the business is thriving, so he must be doing something right...


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## epeddy1 (Apr 3, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> The point being made is that, regardless of the amount of money, a wise business owner won't spend it unless he sees a value in it. The OP has illustrated that he's failed to show this particular business owner that there's a value in what can be provided to him. The reason the business owner hasn't seen that value isn't because he's greedy, but because the OP hasn't been able to show him the value...



Getting a bit personal here.  Maybe the owner is not capable of understanding the value because he's unreasonably frugal, and our fellow photographer did everything he could.  Way to stick up for your fellow forum members and photographers.  I see a lot of unfriendliness towards each other on this forum.  Quite unusual.  Gives the photography community (which I'm a new member of) a bad wrap.



> I get the "extremely" part, but unreasonable? As much as I think it would serve the guy well to throw down a few bucks for what will amount to photo supplies, the fact remains that it's _his _business.



Yes, it is unreasonable.  Borderline unethical.  I wouldn't want the food I ordered at a restaurant sitting on a counter unbeknownst to me getting photographed before it got served and I ate it.  There would be sanitary and quality issues with the final product.

And a reasonable business owner would shell out some assets for a marketing campaign; amount depending on how much he thinks the marketing is worth.  This guy demonstrates that it is worth zero assets to him (to which you agree).  If it's worth zero to him, why ask in the first place?  Because he's being unreasonable.



> The OP has said the business is thriving, so he must be doing something right...


Something right <> Everything right


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## table1349 (Apr 3, 2014)

It is also quite possible that the owner has no clue about food photography.  There are several tricks to making the photographed "food" look spectacular. Often the food is not what it appears to be.  Don't want runny ice cream, use shortening.  Doesn't melt at room temp.  You can color it, you can add fruit, chocolate or nuts too it.   Want a juicy looking steak, a light spritz of glycerin.  Neither really customer friendly.  Good appetizing food photography is well planned and well set up.  It is not a rush job shooting something that was just prepared.  

Frankly, most restaurants have poor presentation these days.  Not the kind that is friendly to advertizing.  Is I were the OP I would pass on the job if the owner insists on it being shot as he wants.


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## Steve5D (Apr 3, 2014)

epeddy1 said:


> Getting a bit personal here.  Maybe the owner is not capable of understanding the value because he's unreasonably frugal, and our fellow photographer did everything he could.



Given the overtly defensive nature of his posts, I doubt that's the case...



> Way to stick up for your fellow forum members and photographers.



Gosh, yeah, I guess I missed the part in the rules where it said we had to pat each other on the head while singing "Kumbaya". That accomplishes nothing. It's impossible to be a success if you don't realize when you screw up. If I see some fault in how someone is approaching something, I'll point it out. I don't feel compelled to "stick up" for anyone, nor do I feel the need to immediately defer to someone simply because he's on a particular forum that I'm on.

That's just silly...



> I see a lot of unfriendliness towards each other on this forum.  Quite unusual.  Gives the photography community (which I'm a new member of) a bad wrap.



Well, I guess you're gonna' have to deal with that. It is what it is. For the record, this is actually one of the less friendly forums I've found... 



> Yes, it is unreasonable.  Borderline unethical.  I wouldn't want the food I ordered at a restaurant sitting on a counter unbeknownst to me getting photographed before it got served and I ate it.  There would be sanitary and quality issues with the final product.



I think we actually agree on this point. I thought the point being made is that it was unethical to not invest the money in the business. I don't find it particularly unethical to have someone take a quick snapshot of the food just before the server picks it up. I don't see where sanitation and "quality issues" would come into play if shot how the business owner wants it shot...



> And a reasonable business owner would shell out some assets for a marketing campaign; amount depending on how much he thinks the marketing is worth.  This guy demonstrates that it is worth zero assets to him (to which you agree).  If it's worth zero to him, why ask in the first place?  Because he's being unreasonable.



He needs to be educated. The OP isn't the guy to do that. The fact that the OP didn't convince him of the value in no way suggests that the restaurant owner can't be convinced of it...



> Something right <> Everything right



Not sure what your point is here. The business is thriving. It's not thriving because the owner is making mistakes. That's not how business works...


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## tirediron (Apr 3, 2014)

Okay, okay...  Let's remember that this the ASPIRING PROFESSIONALS forum, and if you're unclear, please refresh yourself n the guidelines for this particular forum!


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## Steve5D (Apr 3, 2014)

If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.

And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show _those _images to the business owner.

At that point, I've done as much as I can. 

Simply _telling _the owner that I need more time is not doing as much as I can. _Showing _him what I can do if given more time is...


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 3, 2014)

It's not like you're going to change the client, he runs his business the way he runs it. But like Steve said you'd need to show him what you could do and what it would take to get it done. If that doesn't work for him then he may need to find another photographer. I think the lack of experience doing food photography is the problem because it takes understanding what you're doing to be able to explain it; probably developing the specific necessary skills would be helpful to be able to do this.


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## danial (Apr 3, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.
> 
> And then I would go home and get to work. I would set up my lightbox, and start preparing food. I would create a meal or three and shoot them, and I would take my time shooting them. Assuming the photos I took my time with were superior to the quick snapshots, I would then show _those _images to the business owner.
> 
> ...



Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway.. Instead the owner could have taken my word for it even tho I haven't done food photography before I have more knowledge than him.. And he contacted me because someone I previously took images for recommended me to him. And your comment that your confident that he could have been turned provided it was someone other than me I'd love to see you convince him and go through all the work u said you would have done and not get paid at the end.. And I was very friendly to him I posted it very blunt here just to get the gyst of the story of what happened. But I love how you say he could have been changed if it were someone other than me yet you don't even know me  nice !


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 3, 2014)

danial said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > If I wanted this gig, what I would do would be shoot a few photos in the manner the owner wants. I would take a couple quick pictures of someone's corned beef sandwich and onion rings, and then send the server on his or her way.
> ...



How do you plan on building a portfolio if you won't take the time to practice?  Would you let someone cut your hair that had never cut hair before, because she was "pretty sure" she knew how to do it?   If you aren't willing to put in the work you're not going to make it.    Done right, food photography takes a lot of time, space, and food.  Time is money.  Opening up space for you to work costs money (opportunity costs).   The food that will be used can't be sold so there is that as well.  It's more than just the $2.oo cost of the sandwich.  If someone wanted me to give them the time, space and food required to photograph my menu they'd better be able to prove they know what they are doing. 

That's the purpose of a portfolio.   You start at home doing images for yourself.  When you have worked out a suitable workflow for a shoot then you take your portfolio and start pitching for some TF work.   Similar to how interns and apprentices in other industries work (and used to work in photography).   They don't just walk in off the street with no resume or references.  They have some sort of relevant education or experience that can be verified, then they work via an internship or apprenticeship to get the rest of the experience needed to take the job (and responsibility) themselves and earn a real paycheck.


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## danial (Apr 4, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> danial said:
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Yes I understand that. That is why I wasn't charging I said id do it for  free to build my portfolio that is putting the work in. I didn't go to  him looking for work with no portfolio.. as I said before someone that I  took photos for before recommended me to him and he took her word and  he came to me so it is different. and yes I have let people cut my hair  in the past that haven't cut hair before. 

you said "If someone wanted me to give them the time, space and food  required to  photograph my menu they'd better be able to prove they know  what they  are doing." see that would be them coming to you for work  and get paid.So your point isn't valid. the short of it, he wanted me to  take images for him, I agreed and said id do it for free as I have no  experience in food photography and it can build my portfolio, so im  putting in my time work and he is getting free images. He never asked to  see my work or portfolio so that wasn't an issue with him.so dunno what your going on about portfolio for.


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## mmaria (Apr 4, 2014)

I haven't read all posts so sorry if I'm asking something that's been asked before, but did you ever (at home or wherever) try to photograph  soup, cake, coffee, drinks or something like that?


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## danial (Apr 4, 2014)

mmaria said:


> I haven't read all posts so sorry if I'm asking something that's been asked before, but did you ever (at home or wherever) try to photograph  soup, cake, coffee, drinks or something like that?



I've photographed coffee beans lol


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## Braineack (Apr 4, 2014)

danial said:


> Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway...




That's the attitude!

:violin:


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## danial (Apr 4, 2014)

Braineack said:


> danial said:
> 
> 
> > Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway...
> ...



Maybe you should have read the whole thing. And how he asked me to do the work not the other way around..


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## Steve5D (Apr 4, 2014)

danial said:


> Ya because I am going to go to all that work and effort when its a none paying job anyway.. Instead the owner could have taken my word for it even tho I haven't done food photography before I have more knowledge than him.



 Wow.

It's called "building a portfolio" and, if you ever want a chance of  doing this for money, you'd damn well better have one. There's not a  single reason for the guy to accept what you say. Not. A. Single. Reason. You need to be able to show him your work. 

What you're showing now is that you're unwilling to do the work to get the gig...



> And he contacted me because someone I previously took images for recommended me to him.



So what?



> And your comment that your confident that he could have been turned provided it was someone other than me I'd love to see you convince him and go through all the work u said you would have done and not get paid at the end.



Well, see, there's the difference between me and you. You're afraid to do the work to do a gratis job. I would do the work and get him to pay me, because I know how to show someone the value of something...



> And I was very friendly to him I posted it very blunt here just to get the gyst of the story of what happened. But I love how you say he could have been changed if it were someone other than me yet you don't even know me  nice !



Being very nice is great; good for you. But how things are presented reveal much. It's not the words you're using but, rather, your mindset which reveals that you're out of your league. It's pretty clear that you don't understand what it is to own and operate a small business; even a thriving one. The money spent on a photo shoot would not, and should not, come out of his pockets, despite the fact that you insist he's well off. The money for it should come out of the business. Part of your job is convince him to loosen the company purse strings and make an investment in his business. But, because you don't understand business, you're unable to do that.

Someone who does understand small business could...


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## Steve5D (Apr 4, 2014)

danial said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > danial said:
> ...



I'm not entirely sure why that really matters...


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## Steve5D (Apr 4, 2014)

danial said:


> If they don't believe me then they can get someone else.



Perhaps you could explain exactly why they should believe you. 

Should they believe you simply because someone recommended you? Should they believe you because you've got a fancy camera? Should they believe you because your portfolio shows... Um, nevermind. Scratch that last one.

Why should someone simply believe what you say?



> And if u don't think that's the attitude to have well I couldn't give a...



I love your attitude. It means that you will never be anyone's competition...


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## Steve5D (Apr 4, 2014)

Braineack said:


> danial said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



It's funny and sad all at the same time...


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## Braineack (Apr 4, 2014)

that's what she said.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 4, 2014)

At this point I don't exactly see aspiring professional here... I think (maybe??) the original question was about if people thought the OP was right in saying this wasn't do-able the way the restaurant owner wanted it done. I think people might be trying to let the OP know that it's not a simple yes/no, it's up to the photographer how they present to a potential client what they can offer and how the job would be done. If that doesn't work for the potential client then it's probably better to move on. 

I think too people might be trying to point out that you don't have a lot of ground to stand on if you haven't done food photography before, because that gets into doing commercial work (that as someone mentioned earlier involves staging the food like is done for magazine articles etc.). I think you'd have to know how to do that and be able to show some work from a portfolio to demonstrate to a client what you can do - until you have that how would a potential client know what you're capable of? Word of mouth by a friend could get you some referrals but that may not be enough for a prospective client to want to work with you, I think you might need to show a client the 'why' in doing a specific job.


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## tirediron (Apr 4, 2014)

First of all:  Last warning.  Let's keep things clean, polite and above the belt or this thread is done.

OP:  You don't seem to understand the concept of building a portfolio.  It's not something you get to do on the backs of paying clients.  It's not even something that you normally get to do for free.  It is usually something that costs you money, sometimes a lot of money.  I wouldn't want to think of all the studio rental fees I've paid, gas I've bought, etc, etc, just to bring in a model for a "free" shoot so I could add her to my portfolio

This is true whether you're a model, photographer, MUA, or dog-groomer!  You have to be able to demonstrate to potential clients that you can produce the level of work they require.  In order to do that you have to show them images.  Go home, spend a couple of hundred dollar, buy some food and photograph it.  Nothing exciting, canned soup, a slice of cake, cookies on a plate, that sort of thing.  Put together a portfolio of ten images which show that you can light and present food decently and then shop yourself around.  

Telling the potential client that his idea won't work is one thing, pulling out a binder of high-quality food images and showing him what you can do under the right conditions is another animal entirely.


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## epeddy1 (Apr 4, 2014)

tirediron said:


> First of all:  Last warning.  Let's keep things clean, polite and above the belt or this thread is done.
> 
> OP:  You don't seem to understand the concept of building a portfolio.  It's not something you get to do on the backs of paying clients.  It's not even something that you normally get to do for free.  It is usually something that costs you money, sometimes a lot of money.  I wouldn't want to think of all the studio rental fees I've paid, gas I've bought, etc, etc, just to bring in a model for a "free" shoot so I could add her to my portfolio
> 
> ...



By the time he buys the food, etc etc, and builds his portfolio, he doesn't need this guy's pro bono work anymore to build his food portfolio.  At that point he should present his portfolio and ask for a fee.  The way I see it, he's trying to accomplish a win-win and the owner doesn't want to be a part of it.  To which I say walk away.  Everyone seems to be answering the question "how do I market myself as a food photographer" which was never asked.


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## tirediron (Apr 4, 2014)

epeddy1 said:


> By the time he buys the food, etc etc, and builds his portfolio, he doesn't need this guy's pro bono work anymore to build his food portfolio. ...


I would respectfully disagree.  The 'build it at home' portion of one's portfolio is nothing more than a 'get your foot in the door' project.  It is what you need to lead to 'real' jobs.  Having nice food images is one thing, having nice food images that were shot for a restaurant is another thing completely.


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