# "Looking for Photographer to work for free"



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 9, 2008)

These days there are a lot of companies and people blatantly asking for photographers to work for free. On craigslist in my city it seems almost every day that this is happening. Last week the professional lacrosse team in my city was looking for a photographer to cover all 8 local games for free and for all the images rights to be signed over to them. A while back I started listing reply postings basically stating it is wrong to ask photographers to work for free and asking if they themselves would mind doing their job if they werent getting paid (In a rude sort of way sense its anonymous anyway) I have started to notice that when as ad goes up now it is getting multiple replies bashing them for asking for free work. Maybe if more people started doing this all over to people and businesses, asking for photographers to work for free would start to be frowned upon again and people would stop asking thus increasing the amount of paid jobs available. 

Maybe you have thought on the idea?


----------



## craig (Nov 9, 2008)

I think it is an excellent idea to school the public especially the folks on Craig's list that free photography is not ok. A lot of people on the Orange County Craigslist have already started doing this. I also posted a similar thread hear on TPF citing some examples. 

Free photography is just the icing on the cake so to speak. People have asked for gender and age in some cases, which is basically discrimination. Fact of the matter is Craig's list is not the place for serious photography buyers and should be avoided at all costs. 

Love & Bass


----------



## theshortwhiteguy (Nov 9, 2008)

My thoughts exactly! 

Most of the problem stems from "so called" photographers who are BAD business people. When I learned photography, I learned it from a photographer who impressed upon me that it was "90% business and 10% taking pictures". Then again, he also said it was the "#2 most failed business". At age 16 it didn't make much sense, but, at age 40, watching IBM'rs/computer types with a "real job" standing on sidelines or at weddings with the same equipment as I do, makes me concerned. These photo geniuses have their ego stroked by family members and co-workers when they show off their latest capture, and then they are told that they should quit their high 5-figure job to take pictures. This is not too much different than the same family members/co-workers who might be impressed with their dramatic flair for cuisine, recommending that they quit said job to open a restaurant (which happens to be the #1 most failed business). How are these hobbyists expected to sell themselves and their product when they have never sold anything in their lives? I'll tell you how - they give it away for practically nothing or nothing at all just to get the business. Then, when the a. they screw up the photos or b. figure they can't make anything or c. tire of it, an organization like the lacrosse team figures they can find another patsy. Of course that organization will sell the next johnny-come-lately on the benefits of "free" advertising. 

I like your approach to this topic - I will start to do the same thing. The more assertiveness by us "Professionals" should go a long way.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 9, 2008)

Yeah I think it should be done outside of craigslist as well. One of the modeling agencies here in town knows that I do testing to get new images once in awhile for my portfolio and so now rather than telling their new talent to go out and pay for a portfolio they tell them to ask if I will do TFP for them even though I have asked multiple times for them to direct only paying clients my way. When I want to do a TFP shoot I will contact whoever I want to be involved and it probably won&#8217;t be someone who as previously asked me. Getting paid to shoot a model portfolio seems to be a thing of the past.


----------



## Harmony (Nov 9, 2008)

The National Press Photographer's Website is a great resource. 

They have a code of ethics, business practices, and lots of other great stuff.

Go here and check out 4(e).


----------



## JerryPH (Nov 10, 2008)

Yes, it is TOTALLY wrong to ask for a photographer to work for free and give all rights over to them.  No one likes working for free, and I have NO idea why anyone would be STUPID enough to do just that.

Having said that, being at an event surrounded by people with equal and/or superior equipment, I am just not worried *at all*, not one small whit.

I spent last night hanging with a fellow group of strobists... people that have some greater understanding of photography above that of the average "Uncle Bob" that you will meet at these events.  

One guy came in with literally over $10,000 in camera equipment, backdrops and what not and this morning I saw his work... shockingly poor!  The star of the evening was a very humble older gentleman who literally blew my socks off with his understanding of light, originality and creativity... and his results I saw this morning were very impressive.

I also met a woman who without even taking many pictures, immediately demonstrated to me that her gift was being able to make the person standing in front of her, instantly comfortable and easy to work with.  What a mind that woman had!

This is not something that comes without concerted effort, practice and a dedication to the art.  What a learning experience! Just goes to show... we all want the best cameras, but its not the cameras that get you the REALLY special pictures, its the person behind the lens!   :lmao: :lmao:


----------



## dklod (Nov 10, 2008)

I dont know what you are so uptight about. No one is asking YOU personally to do something for free. They did not say "hey, Alleh, can do us a favour and cover our games for us, oh, and we arent paying you"? They are asking if there is someone who would like to do it. Maybe there is a highschool student in the area who has been studying photography for the past year and this is a perfect opportunity for them to get out in the field and get some real experience under thier belts. They are not willing to pay anyone to do it so they can not be expected to get Sports Illustrated results. Experienced people want beginners to learn and grow but the minute they might be stepping on someone toes, its like "hey, you cant do that". You cant have it both ways. Every week my boss gets a call about someone wanting my job for less money. Do I care, no. I do my job damn well, and my boss knows it. So unless you are a little insecure about your abilities, then I dont know why you are so worried about this stuff.


----------



## Harmony (Nov 10, 2008)

Hey, dklod, did you check out my link?


----------



## dklod (Nov 10, 2008)

Harmony said:


> Hey, dklod, did you check out my link?


 
Hey Harmony, yeah I checked it out. Its good advice for any business. All Im trying to say is no one is making you do anything. If dont want to do something and wave your rights and not get paid, then dont do it. Just look at the construction industry. It runs on trades people undercutting one another but no one is making them take less money then they are worth. If you sell yourself short, you cant play the blame game. I was trying to take an objective view that they were looking for someone wanting to gain some experience whilst giving them what they need. The minute you say youre not paying someone, you must let go of any expectations and Im sure they were aware of that.


----------



## confused_in_the_darkroom (Nov 10, 2008)

While dklod makes a point about the highschool (or college student such as myself) getting the opportunity to work these free events it is not right that the photographer forfeits the rights of the picture over to the lacross team. I might be young and stupid but I'm not that stupid. As far as them wanting free, thats just poor judgement on their part since they will get absolute crap for results.

I feel conflicted because I am coming into the business. I understand people have to come in at a lower price in order to establish themselves. Anyone stupid enough to work for free however is just asking to be made into a joke, and thats my opinion of the people who do take the 'free' bait.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't care about a high school student looking for experience. Go do an internship. The problem is so many wannabes offer up services for free that people have lost all shame in asking for a photographer to work for free and when we come back saying your kidding right they act like we are the ones with a problem.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 10, 2008)

You don't ask a plumber if they will fix your sink for the experience. Is it because you wouldn't rather have them do it for free? or because that's just not how business is done when it comes to getting a sink fixed. Why has photography become so different than other trades?


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 10, 2008)

I forgot to mention they were looking for someone with experience not someone trying to gain some. 

As stated in the ad "we are looking for a professional photographer..."


----------



## confused_in_the_darkroom (Nov 10, 2008)

Well that adds a different dynamic to it. They are just greedy and stupid then.


----------



## confused_in_the_darkroom (Nov 10, 2008)

But seriously I started out underpricing and that worked for all of 1 or 2 weddings because you have to get into your field somehow. If it means just shooting to break even at first then I think that that is fine. I am earning money to help with school now and hopefully after school I can take what I learn and apply it to whatever it is I do with photography because unlike some Uncle Bob with a DSLR I am sticking with photography.


----------



## dklod (Nov 10, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I forgot to mention they were looking for someone with experience not someone trying to gain some.
> 
> As stated in the ad "we are looking for a professional photographer..."


 
Stated in the ad, but not here. That changes things.


----------



## dklod (Nov 10, 2008)

Alleh Lindquist said:


> Why has photography become so different than other trades?


 
Because you dont need a license to do it.


----------



## Sw1tchFX (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree, Portland is pretty bad..


----------



## JodieO (Nov 11, 2008)

Hey, I just had the Bump Magazine email and call me wanting an image for their front cover.  I said no.  NO WAY.... I was supposed to give them the rights for free and also sign a contract that I was giving it to them for free and was not allowed to sell it to anyone for at least 12 months.

When I sat down and thought about that, I realized how absurd it is that any photographer would agree to such.  But alas, they will call another photographer who will gladly give it to them thinking that anyone really cares about the tiny print credit they will get somewhere hidden in the magazine - they think, "I have my image on the front cover, I will be the next superstar now..."

Unbelievable.


----------



## JerryPH (Nov 11, 2008)

ROFL... everyone wants to become the superstar... until they learn that there is some actual WORK and EFFORT needed to get the good shots out there and the ones that are the stupid ones, are the ones giving it away... I don't blame the clients for asking for freebies, I blame the dolts that are totally killing the industry by accepting to give their stuff away.  THEY are the ones undervaluing themselves, their work and hurting other photographers in the process, because THEY are the ones setting the trend, not the people asking for the freebies.

I believe we should be the ones giving them the looks as if they are crazy, not the clients at us.

Nicely done Jodie!


----------



## jlykins (Nov 11, 2008)

The problem also stems from peoples view of photographs as a whole. A lot people (some of which are the ones asking for free services) just assume that all it takes is an expensive camera... Cheaper "entry level" cameras have brought cheaper equipment for us all, but at what cost? Are we willing to pay a little more for our equipment, and not have every *TOOL* out pretending to be a photographer taking money from the true professionals? Or would we rather have the cheaper equipment with our bottom line going south? I don't make my living off of photographs. I don't rely on my photographs to put food on the table, but I do work for a living and if I had to do what I do at work for free to "get into the business", I would look for a new business because my time is not free, ever.  I don't think I will ever photograph for a living, not because of a lack of talent, but because I don't think people appreciate photographers enough.


----------



## benhasajeep (Nov 11, 2008)

There is a sucker born every minute they say.  I think free photography has it's place in certain situations.  Like shooting for church news letter, or a "real" charity needing some help.  I say real because there are a lot of fake charities that are nothing more than an expense generator so the person running it can make money, and they give just a pittance to an actual need.  Anyway thats off topic.

But lately it seems people are trying to use the charity, or gain experience, or work with this famous publication more and more to gain free work.  They are preying on peoples good intentions or wanting to gain notoriety / fame.  Just look at all the people that sign up for Idol.  They all have to sign contracts before they perform.  Be it they are good or bad, they are signing lots of stuff away to Idol's production company!  They do it not thinking of what they are doing.  They are just dreaming of being on the show and chosen.  Now one of them who didn't even make the top 24 has a record deal, and is now being sued because he signed that contract with Idol!  They want their cut even though they did not help at all with him getting that record deal!

There are crooks that con people for money gains.  And there are legitimate business that con people for money gains.  It's a never ending story.  They prey on people!  And there's a sucker born every minute!


----------



## RMThompson (Nov 11, 2008)

It's even WORSE in the modeling field, and in fact I just ranted on this recently on Model Mayhem.

In modeling what happens is this:

1. There are a lot of guys WILLING to take pictures of models, assuming they are going to be half naked, naked, or various stages between.

2. A model starts out, puts some self-taken-Myspace pictures of herself on the portfolio, and the guys above email her telling her how "incredible" she is and how "she's gonna make it" and offering thier services for free (assuming she's willing to get naked, or wear some lingerie, or show off her assets in other ways that probably won't benefit her portfolio).

3. The model takes pictures with the photographer, and it so excited she posts 15 of them. Then she works with him again, or another of his clones, creting another set of nearly nude or otherwise very limited concept.

4. The mode, realizing that all she is getting is more offers for more TnA photos, wants to branch out and posts a casting call looking for a creative photographer to do something new! 

5. Regular photographers, (not the other ones mentioned above), respond to the casting call with rates.

6. The model either ignores them, or responds angrily. I mean, after all, how DARE a photographer charge a model for pictures? They are supposed to be the "Next Big Thing", and any photographer should be more than compensated just by the mere presence of someone of her caliber.

...


----------



## Mystwalker (Nov 11, 2008)

There are probably multiple views to this.

A pro will not like the idea because their photo pay their rent and put food on the table.  Understandable.

On other hand, someone who is trying to get toe into door may want to do it just to get some exposure.  I'm rank newb/amateur, and even I know not to sign over rights of photo - this part I found disturbing.  BUT to get foot in door, some who are starting out may be willing to do it for free.

I see any business as an agreement between two parties.  One party wants something for free - if what they want is not available for free, I doubt they will waste time asking.  I'm not in a position to judge someone because I am "not in that business."


----------



## rufus5150 (Nov 11, 2008)

> On other hand, someone who is trying to get toe into door may want to do it just to get some exposure.



This is true of many industries. I've done gratis programming and design jobs that build portfolio, network and future jobs. There's a couple pretty lucrative professions that thrive on giving away the first hit for free.

The thing is, the _professional_ who is always giving their work for free away will not survive. By definition, obtaining little to no income, they will not be able to sustain themselves (seeing that we've defined _professional_ as someone who supports themselves with photography in another thread). 

Eventually, everyone that requests and expects a professional to do such for free will get burned. Eventually, they get what they pay for.

But I can't say I regret giving away the rights to certain bits of source code. It's brought me more income in than had I not given it away back when.


----------



## JerryPH (Nov 11, 2008)

Well, I've tossed in a couple free hours to a new client, but then they do something silly like turn around and book me for a month or 2 and I make sure the freebies are not repetitive, its a bone... not a daily meal.  (lol)


----------



## rufus5150 (Nov 11, 2008)

In fact, in just about every industry I've worked in, working out new contracts and relationships, the first dips are almost always at some discount or deep discount. Proper communication can solve a lot of that, though, as well as well-worded contracts.


----------



## Azriel (Nov 11, 2008)

dklod said:


> I dont know what you are so uptight about. No one is asking YOU personally to do something for free. They did not say "hey, Alleh, can do us a favour and cover our games for us, oh, and we arent paying you"? They are asking if there is someone who would like to do it. Maybe there is a highschool student in the area who has been studying photography for the past year and this is a perfect opportunity for them to get out in the field and get some real experience under thier belts. They are not willing to pay anyone to do it so they can not be expected to get Sports Illustrated results. Experienced people want beginners to learn and grow but the minute they might be stepping on someone toes, its like "hey, you cant do that". You cant have it both ways. Every week my boss gets a call about someone wanting my job for less money. Do I care, no. I do my job damn well, and my boss knows it. So unless you are a little insecure about your abilities, then I dont know why you are so worried about this stuff.


 

I like the point you make here. As a guy just starting out I'd jump on opportunities to take some pictures, of anything new. In fact, this forum gave me the idea to go look for these people looking for free jobs so I can get some practice in.


----------



## JodieO (Nov 11, 2008)

Mystwalker said:


> On other hand, someone who is trying to get toe into door may want to do it just to get some exposure.


 
There is getting your foot in the door, and there is thinking that it will get you anywhere.

If you are doing something for free, you just need to really think it through and see if it really will benefit you or not.

For instance, the thing I mentioned about the magazine. Will that get me more exposure? Not really. I would have a little tiny print credit somewhere, usually where no one reads anyway. That will get me nothing. Sure, some people may like the picture on the front cover, but they aren't going to go on a hunt to find the photographer. This is how magazines like the one I mentioned know they will get free images because people have the false hopes that it will get them somewhere.

Now, on the other hand, having an article done up about maternity photography where I give a free photo and they are talking about my business - THAT would be exposure, and THAT I would do.

There is a difference, you just have to be careful.

I was paid VERY LITTLE to have my images published in The Big Book of Babies by JC Suares.  I did it because even though the pay was so minor, I'm now officially published with a good source.  If I would have been a diva about the payment, they would have just found another photographer.  That book also got me on the news locally.  Was it beneficial?  Sure.  But compare that to the front cover of The Bump Magazine for one issue - no....completely different.


----------



## Azriel (Nov 11, 2008)

I ran a small print magazine for about three years that covered the Canadian industrial scene. In Toronto I had a great photographer who volunteered for me for most of those three years. In that time he got a lot of expierience shooting in different environments. He wasn't an amateur, he went to Uni for media and the whole nine and was quite seasoned.

As a publisher I wasn't out to exploit his skills. We had an exchange of currency, but it wasn't monitary. To him it was free advertising, and to me it was free photos. I didn`t own the photos, but I was able to use them as long as they were magazine related, so it worked out well.

It got him a lot of the exosure he was looking for, as we had an extensive gallery on the website, and all the photos were stamoed with his name on them. People did seek out his work as a result, one band even used his photos on their next album. That, to me, and him, was worth more than money.


----------



## danjchau (Nov 12, 2008)

-------------


----------



## abraxas (Nov 12, 2008)

danjchau said:


> That's just like getting a construction worker to do the job for free, for publicity or experience. If everyone did that, that would destroy the business of actual Professionals. Why should photographers be any different. Just don't do it.



I wish I would known about that when I was a kid.  Maybe things would be different for me if I were young today--I can see it now.

"Sorry Nanna, but you'll have to pay me and pay me well, or hire a pro to mow your lawn, cover your air cooler and chop wood for the winter. Sorry- I hope your stimulus check comes so you can put an ad in the pennysaver and get someone out there before it gets too cold.  Brrrr, good luck with that.."


----------



## Azriel (Nov 12, 2008)

danjchau said:


> That's just like getting a construction worker to do the job for free, for publicity or experience. If everyone did that, that would destroy the business of actual Professionals. Why should photographers be any different. Just don't do it.


 
With respect, construction worker's don't have portfolios

A better analagy would be a musician, and many do play for free when they`re starting out.


----------



## danjchau (Nov 12, 2008)

-------------


----------



## RyanLilly (Nov 12, 2008)

Azriel said:


> With respect, construction worker's don't have portfolios
> 
> A better analagy would be a musician, and many do play for free when they`re starting out.



A good point, professional photographers are not scouring craigslist to find their clients, nor are construction workers, or doctors and lawyers for that matter.  Whatever your business may be, your clients should find you. If you need to search the want adds to find clients then you are doing something wrong.


----------



## RyanLilly (Nov 12, 2008)

"I really hurt my back, I'm looking for a chiropractor to do a back adjustment. I want a professional but I really don't have much money so, I will let you put me down as a reference in exchange for your work. This is a great opportunity for the chiropractor just starting out, or maybe for a dentist looking to break into a new field. You must have a professional model back cracking table and at least one 580ex."


----------



## JodieO (Nov 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> "Sorry Nanna, but you'll have to pay me and pay me well, or hire a pro to mow your lawn, cover your air cooler and chop wood for the winter. Sorry- I hope your stimulus check comes so you can put an ad in the pennysaver and get someone out there before it gets too cold. Brrrr, good luck with that.."


 
With all due respect, a kid isn't out to support a family.  Also, there's a difference working for free for family as well.


----------



## RMThompson (Nov 13, 2008)

Listen, the analogies don't work.

Are their times when shooting free can benefit everyone involved? OF COURSE.

Should companies expect it? NO.

It's a case by case basis, and that's the way it will remain.


----------



## Azriel (Nov 13, 2008)

RMThompson said:


> Listen, the analogies don't work.
> 
> Are their times when shooting free can benefit everyone involved? OF COURSE.
> 
> ...


 
Bingo. If a world famous magazine offered free publicity for free photos, I hardley see anyone in here saying no, so there's a level at which everyone in here would benefit from volunteer work, it's undeinable.


----------



## Chiller (Nov 13, 2008)

Azriel said:


> With respect, construction worker's don't have portfolios
> 
> A better analagy would be a musician, and many do play for free when they`re starting out.


 When I was a young rockstar, our band used to do gigs for free.   Most of the time it led to another paying gig.


----------



## abraxas (Nov 13, 2008)

JodieO said:


> With all due respect, a kid isn't out to support a family.  Also, there's a difference working for free for family as well.



It would have cracked Nanna up and I would have ended up going over there everyday for about a month.  She was pretty cool and I would have ended up not minding the forced labor in the long run.

But anyway--With all due respect;

Most of us in this thread live in the U.S. so I'll put this in the terms I'm most familiar with.  This is a free country.  The beauty of that is we can have whatever dreams and expectations we want. We can ask any questions we want, and work for anybody we want for any price we want. We also have the right to refuse to do anything we want. It's nobody's business what goes on other than if these exchanges are legal. If you have suspicions, call law enforcement and let them investigate.

What you're asking is for is a break in competition--A change in our fundamental policies to accommodate your desires.  Just because you have a need for money doesn't mean everyone should stand aside and let you have it.  Now you have a right to ask everyone to, but really, it comes off as whinning.

This will only get worse.  As more people get their hands on cameras, more people will try to make money off of their investments.  It's human nature.

Speaking of nature, human or otherwise, it is about adaptation.  The strongest or smartest doesn't always survive in the long run (actually they tend not to reproduce well).  Nature goes with what works, the average and for the most part, the mediocre. Whatever changes the most readily. Very sad, but that's nature for you.

Photography is not a commodity.  If you want to stay in the game, be aware of the changes and adapt to them rather than clinging to the way things were and wasting time trying to control something far larger than yourself.  Realize your part and come to grips with either how you can compete in a positive fashion, change your direction or reinvent yourself--Adapt.


----------



## rufus5150 (Nov 13, 2008)

Chiller said:


> When I was a young rockstar, our band used to do gigs for free.   Most of the time it led to another paying gig.




Heh, one of the first gigs one of the bands I was in in college did, we had to pay the venue up front PLUS they got a the larger cut of the door. We ended up paying to play that gig.

Six months later, gigs were paying all my bills.


----------



## Chiller (Nov 13, 2008)

When we gigged, there were so many bands here, that getting a gig was tough, so we took whatever we could to get our name out there.  One night we took a gig, and they paid us with pizza and beer.., so guess which of the bands got the chicks.  :lmao::lmao:  Yup...the ones with the food and drink.  The other bands went home with their hands. :lmao::lmao:
 Hmm....I think Im going to try this with photography.  :greenpbl:


----------



## Joves (Nov 15, 2008)

Well today on our Craigslist I saw a college student offering free wedding photos. Me Id atleast have to get free beer and food. Of course I wouldnt shoot for Budwieser or, other cheap beer and, the photos may get a little wierd near the end of the reception.


----------



## dklod (Nov 16, 2008)

Azriel said:


> With respect, construction worker's don't have portfolios


 
True. They have reputations. But its pretty much the same thing, in a round about way.


----------



## JodieO (Nov 16, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Most of us in this thread live in the U.S. so I'll put this in the terms I'm most familiar with. This is a free country. The beauty of that is we can have whatever dreams and expectations we want. We can ask any questions we want, and work for anybody we want for any price we want. We also have the right to refuse to do anything we want. It's nobody's business what goes on other than if these exchanges are legal. If you have suspicions, call law enforcement and let them investigate.


 
ABSOLUTELY... however, from a business standpoint, it is WISE for business owners to make good business decisions or they will end up one of the 90-95% of all small businesses fail. And guess what, they usually fail because they don't know how to keep their income higher than their expenses by actually charging what they should be charging. While it is good for me that 95% of all businesses fail because I can keep holding my head up; unfortunately, it does drag down industries when 95% of that industry's businesses fail.... and that, my friends, is a sad statistic but reality.... sad that people don't know enough about running businesses before they start one.

All in all, concerning "free services", all one has to do is just make wise decisions. Free doesn't always equal a bad thing to do - it can benefit you. Unfortunately, many don't make the decision as to whether specific freebies are truly going to benefit them or they are just being used.... their desperation to be something being preyed on by certain companies.

It's just sad. It really doesn't affect me a whole lot (except increase failure statistics in my industry and gives more and more businesses leverage to get freebies) because I won't LET it (I'm actually turning clients away right now because I have worked hard to build my name)... but it is a sad reality in this industry.


----------



## Dao (Nov 16, 2008)

I think  ...  The market create it, as long as the market support such activities, it is fine.  Earth is spinning, world is changing.  Things that did not happen 20 years ago doesn't mean it is wrong today.

Today's photography industry is different from 20 years ago, should we blame Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Olympus as well as the software companies?  They are the one who make photography affordable, they are the one who make photography reachable.

We cannot blame someone looking for opportunity? Whether he/she can success is a different issue.  The market will tell him/her.


----------



## Azriel (Nov 16, 2008)

dklod said:


> True. They have reputations. But its pretty much the same thing, in a round about way.


 

explain


----------



## Joves (Nov 16, 2008)

Azriel said:


> With respect, construction worker's don't have portfolios
> 
> A better analagy would be a musician, and many do play for free when they`re starting out.


Actually I do have a construction portfolio. Sorry to disappiont you. I pump concrete all over N.Az and, have photos of where I have placed concrete. I can use it if I choose to change jobs as part of my resume. It show where I have had difficult set ups and, how I handeled them, which im my business to show compentence in almost any situation.


----------



## Azriel (Nov 16, 2008)

Joves said:


> Actually I do have a construction portfolio. Sorry to disappiont you. I pump concrete all over N.Az and, have photos of where I have placed concrete. I can use it if I choose to change jobs as part of my resume. It show where I have had difficult set ups and, how I handeled them, which im my business to show compentence in almost any situation.


 
:hail: I stand corrected, but the only point I was trying to make was thatfree construction work is unnacceptable, and free photography is not entirely. As some people, such as myself, need to build a portfolio, which will aid me in getting paid work. I could charge right from the start, but it'd be much harder, and I wouldn't nessesarily gain experience as quickly.


----------



## dklod (Nov 16, 2008)

Azriel said:


> explain


 
Its all word of mouth as well as what you have worked on in the past. If you have worked on the more exclusive bigger  projects and did a great job, you can be sure that the developer or builder will request your services again (good reputation). If the opposite happens, they will even tell other developers to avoid you (bad reputation). Even the other trades will gossip about you if you are good or bad. On our company website, we have listed past jobs and clients which I guess is a form of a portfolio, but most dont.


----------



## pm63 (Nov 17, 2008)

Azriel said:


> :hail: I stand corrected, but the only point I was trying to make was that*free construction work is unnacceptable, and free photography is not entirely*.



I think the reason for this is that free construction would involve a massive financial loss on behalf of the contractor, whereas free photography would not. To explain, materials and workers etc. cost money as well as time. Free photography, assuming it is digital and therefore has no film or development costs, merely costs time. Furthermore, construction is a "you can do it or you can't" thing, whereas photography is very subjective, and experience does help.

Of course, you could argue that time and money are interchangable, but that's another discussion... In any case, I don't think the analogy between photography and construction is an accurate one.


----------



## sabbath999 (Nov 17, 2008)

I am looking for somebody to cook for me for free.

I am looking for somebody to do a new website for me for free.

I am looking for somebody to do my grocery shopping for free.

I am looking for somebody to carry my scuba equipment for me for free.

I am SOL, and these people seeking free photography should be too.


----------



## Joves (Nov 17, 2008)

sabbath999 said:


> I am looking for somebody to cook for me for free.
> 
> I am looking for somebody to do a new website for me for free.
> 
> ...


I agree. Except I would shoot for small local charities for free if asked. Most of our local ones are barely able to stay afloat as it is. Now if it was a major charity then no way! They generally have CEOs who make big bucks so they should pay.


----------



## bhop (Nov 17, 2008)

I recently started shooting for a small automotive website for free.  I don't have a portfolio or contacts to get real work, so this is how i'm building one.  Photography's been a hobby for years, but now it's possible I could get paid for it once I get enough experience and meet the right people, all because I accepted free work.  ...although, I do get free media passes to events I would've gone to anyway (and would've paid to get in on my own).


----------



## Jeremy Lim (Nov 17, 2008)

I'm fresh to the photography game, but I've hung enough with plenty of musicians who struggle with the same thing.  Yes, there's getting your foot in the door, but that sort of thinking is what got us in this situation in the first place.  Economics: higher supply, lower price.  Marketing: lower price, lower value.  'Standards' are established, and this cycle perpetuates.

Are you folks familiar with the term payola?  In short, it's paying to have your work used.  Music's already there.  I'm scared for the day photography takes that leap.

I'm with Alleh.  I think this must be approached with severity; not to the solicitors of free work, but to the photographers themselves.


----------



## abraxas (Nov 17, 2008)

Jeremy Lim said:


> ...
> 
> I'm with Alleh.  I think this must be approached with severity; not to the solicitors of free work, but to the photographers themselves.



I'm not getting this.  What can you do--Beat them up?

This happened a few years ago with websites. Now anybody can build one.

How did the professional photographers of the 70s survive the SLR revolution? IMO, by improving their craft and marketing.  The good ones with the right skills and equipment rose to the top of the heap.  Just a bigger heap.


----------



## Jeremy Lim (Nov 17, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I'm not getting this.  What can you do--Beat them up?
> 
> This happened a few years ago with websites. Now anybody can build one.
> 
> How did the professional photographers of the 70s survive the SLR revolution? IMO, by improving their craft and marketing.  The good ones with the right skills and equipment rose to the top of the heap.  Just a bigger heap.



If necessary!  Haha.  No, not beat them - but .. speak the truth.  Tell it like it is.

Also, to take my point in the opposite direction, money isn't the only form of payment out there.  I wouldn't do a shoot for free (not that I'm qualified for it just yet), but for a link from a high profile website?  You bet I would.  Mind you, that might just be the SEO in me talking.  Point is, exposure's a lot more liquid than cash for some companies and can be worth more to you than cash would have been.


----------



## sabbath999 (Nov 18, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I'm not getting this.  What can you do--Beat them up?



Why turn them over to the Ministry Of Love, of course.


----------



## rufus5150 (Nov 18, 2008)

> I'm with Alleh. I think this must be approached with severity; not to the solicitors of free work, but to the photographers themselves.



Well then you're not _really_ with Alleh. He advocates attacking the solicitors:



> These days there are a lot of companies and people blatantly asking for photographers to work for free...A while back I started listing reply postings basically stating it is wrong to ask photographers to work for free ... Maybe if more people started doing this all over to people and businesses, asking for photographers to work for free would start to be frowned upon again ...



Pretty much everyone else turned it into a 'don't do the work for free' argument, though.


----------



## Harmony (Nov 18, 2008)

sabbath999 said:


> Why turn them over to the Ministry Of Love, of course.



Ahhh. You read the classics, I see.


----------



## wamack (Nov 22, 2008)

So what do you think about a hobbyist doing free work? I got thrown into this very uncomfortable situation yesterday, my best friend told this girl she grew up with that I'd shoot her wedding for free without consulting me. It's in 2 weeks. They want a full wedding package with wedding party portraits the whole nine yards. The only portrait experience I have is my son who is 6 mo old and that is mostly experimenting. They offered to sign releases of the photos. The cheapest wedding photographer I could find on CL was $700. I feel like these people are just trying to save money. They are holding the wedding at the largest church in town. No cheap venue. When I told my friend I want at least $100 so that I can buy Adobe elements (I currently use iphoto) because I don't want to put my name on unedited images like that. I want to turn over a polished product, she got indignant like how dare I ask for compensation. I realize that I have no experience so I'm not asking for a competitive rate. But I also did not seek out this gig (in fact I tried not to accept it) because I am not prepared to do something of that caliber. I don't know what to do. Am I wrong? Should I do it for the experience? Should I give away unedited images?


----------



## craig (Nov 22, 2008)

Call the bride and groom and tell them that you are unable to shoot the wedding. 

Love & Bass


----------



## Overread (Nov 22, 2008)

I agree with craig - you don't sound like your ready nor that you are confidant that you are ready to shoot a wedding. Decline the shoot since it will be far more painful if you go and make a mess of it.

They might think you being selfish or some such but just tell them the reasons and then you will not shoot the wedding.

If you want to shoot weddings the best way to get experience is to ghost an existing pro on some of their jobs - some will let you ghost for free, others will ask for some payment from you for the day. Simple fact is in these  cases you are not needed to get any shots right so you can experiment to your hearts content, making sure that you don't get in the way of the pro who does have to get the shots.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 22, 2008)

rufus5150 said:


> Well then you're not _really_ with Alleh. He advocates attacking the solicitors:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much everyone else turned it into a 'don't do the work for free' argument, though.


 
Actually my point was for photographers as a whole to start demanding respect. If companies who asked photographers to work for free got responses along the lines of "you think you deserve to get paid to do your job but that I should work for free?" rather than a bunch of people going "oh please please please pick me because I want my photos to get used for something." Eventually they would stop asking for the same reason you don't walk into Gap and say "can I get this T-Shirt for free as I will make a good walking advertisement for you." You would look like a fool but if clothing companies really did give away clothes on occasion for free publicity eventually people would start going around to all the stores asking for free stuff rather than paying for it which is exactly what many companies are doing because so many people are willing to work as photographers for free.

We can&#8217;t stop them from asking but over time we can remedy the fact that is has become common practice to expect to be able to get photographers to work for free.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist (Nov 22, 2008)

wamack said:


> So what do you think about a hobbyist doing free work? I got thrown into this very uncomfortable situation yesterday, my best friend told this girl she grew up with that I'd shoot her wedding for free without consulting me. It's in 2 weeks. They want a full wedding package with wedding party portraits the whole nine yards. The only portrait experience I have is my son who is 6 mo old and that is mostly experimenting. They offered to sign releases of the photos. The cheapest wedding photographer I could find on CL was $700. I feel like these people are just trying to save money. They are holding the wedding at the largest church in town. No cheap venue. When I told my friend I want at least $100 so that I can buy Adobe elements (I currently use iphoto) because I don't want to put my name on unedited images like that. I want to turn over a polished product, she got indignant like how dare I ask for compensation. I realize that I have no experience so I'm not asking for a competitive rate. But I also did not seek out this gig (in fact I tried not to accept it) because I am not prepared to do something of that caliber. I don't know what to do. Am I wrong? Should I do it for the experience? Should I give away unedited images?


 

There is nothing wrong with doing work to gain experience but you always want it to be on your terms. That means only when you offer it up as trade for experience not the other way around and weddings are not really the best place for that its better to try and get a job as a second shooter to gain wedding experience and a portfolio. Even if I was just starting out and was asked to do a wedding I would ask for a minimum of $500. Even the worst wedding photographers in business charge more than that. At the least charge them what it would cost to rent all the gear your going to use during the wedding.

Your friend though seems to have the exact same mind set as these companies. They just expect that it should be free.


----------



## JohnMF (Nov 23, 2008)

I'm not too familiar with craigslist, but is it really a sensible idea for so called professional photographers to use it as part of their business model?

It just seems to be full of dirt-cheap and *free* advertising. I can't imagine any decent client looking on craitslist to find anything, let alone something with artistic merit.

I think if you're and good photographer with a solid business plan and belief in your abilities, then you will always have work, it will find you.

if someone wants to get some random guy they found on craigslist to photograph their wedding for free, then they will get exactly what they paid for.


----------



## anubis404 (Nov 23, 2008)

The only free work I would do is for friends and family. If I wanted to gain experience doing small jobs (like children's birthday parties or something along those lines) I would charge, but not a lot. If I did those for free it would look a little creepy, like "hey, you don't know me, but can I bring my big camera over and take lots of pictures of your small children"? Charging something just makes me look more professional.


----------



## craig (Nov 23, 2008)

JohnMF said:


> I'm not too familiar with craigslist, but is it really a sensible idea for so called professional photographers to use it as part of their business model?
> 
> It just seems to be full of dirt-cheap and *free* advertising. I can't imagine any decent client looking on craitslist to find anything, let alone something with artistic merit.
> 
> ...



Everything you say about Craigslist is true. I should also mention that thanks to Craigslist I just landed a $1,500 job photographing a hotel in lovely Palm Springs. After that I will be photographing more of his hotels in L.A. 

Photo marketing and business is a numbers game. The more people you reach the more work you will get. If work finds you then feel free to tell us more. Personally I am constantly contacting art directors and magazines. And yes a cruise through the Craigslist ads never hurts

Love & Bass


----------



## Lacey Anne (Nov 23, 2008)

Sw1tchFX said:


> I agree, Portland is pretty bad..


 Dude, I didn't know you were in Portland! I'm in Vancouver!


----------



## Harmony (Nov 23, 2008)

Wait... Vancouver WASHINGTON or Vancouver BC?


----------



## Lacey Anne (Nov 24, 2008)

Harmony said:


> Wait... Vancouver WASHINGTON or Vancouver BC?


 Washington.


----------



## Harmony (Nov 25, 2008)

Lacey Anne said:


> Washington.



Awww. And I got all excited for a second. I think there's only 3 regular posters here who live in BC... and one of them is on Vancouver Island, I think.


----------

