# Portraits for Clinic



## rachellebelle (Nov 17, 2014)

I am an aspiring portrait photographer currently working full-time as a receptionist at a spa/massage clinic. My boss has asked me if I would be interested in taking individual staff portraits to be posted on our website for staff profiles. Of course I would love to! I have a diploma in photography and have also completed portrait courses. My question is, should my boss pay me for my photography services? Please keep in mind, he is kind of a cheapskate and I would need to be very clear and justify my reasons for wanting the money. 

Thanks


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## Designer (Nov 17, 2014)

Are you going to make the photographs at the office and on company time?  Is there anything in your DDR that includes the phrase:  "performs additional duties as required"?


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 17, 2014)

That's what I was wondering...Would this be done during your regular work hours? If so that could probably make it work for hire and the company would own the copyright (I think, you'll need to look it up and find out, seems like that would make it part of your job duties).

If you do this on your break or before /after work that could probably make it a separate contacted service.

Try American Society of Media Photographers for info. on contracts, licensing, releases, determining pricing, etc.


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## KmH (Nov 17, 2014)

Yes, your boss should pay you.
You are describing a commercial photography shoot that will produce photos for a commercial use.
Since you are in Canada, contract, licensing, releases, etc info from the ASMP may not be all that helpful.

The way commercial photography work is priced you would charge for your time and talent (a Creative fee), and a separate charge for use licensing of your copyrighted photographs.
I am not familiar with Canadian 'work for hire' (WFH) statutes, but I do know that Canada made some major changes to their copyright laws in recent years so they more closely gibe with US copyright law.
In the US, a statement in an employment contract saying "performs additional duties as required" would not be sufficient for an employer to claim copyright ownership of photographs made by an employee whose normal job duties do not include doing photography. Even if you did the shoot during your regular work hours does not automatically make it a WFH situation here in the US.
In the US, for WFH to be in effect, both parties (employee/employer) need to sign an agreement stating that WFH applies.

A use license would define that the use of your photographs would be restricted to just 1 media type - the clinic's web site.
The use license would define what maximum size (pixel dimensions) your photographs could be used at, and for what period of time.

Use licensing of a photograph for clinic web use only (at up to 400 x 400 px) would be about $35 a month - per photograph.
If the clinic uses 10 photos, the monthly use licensing fee would be $350 for all 10 photos.
Instead of a monthly rate you could charge a yearly rate and give a discount for a 1 year use license. 
One photo @ $35/month would be $420 for a year of use. So you could discount that to somewhere in the $350 to $400 range, per photo, per year.
If the clinic uses 10 photos that would be $3500 to $4000 per year for the use of 10 photos on the clinic web site.


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## Derrel (Nov 17, 2014)

KmH said:
			
		

> If the clinic uses 10 photos that would be $3500 to $4000 per year for the use of 10 photos on the clinic web site.



Annnnnnnnnnnd at that price, the clinic's management could go out and BUY a complete camera, lens, and lighting system, use it all to shoot the images, and then write it off.

*A yearly use fee of $3,500 to $4,000 per year for TEN headshots is an utterly,utterly unrealistic fee.* Seriously. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than the job is worth. Anywhere in North America. The use is a medical clinic's web site? OMG--this is NOT a one million-circulation monthly magazine..this is a web site's staff mugshot section, fer Chrissakes!

This job can easily be completed by a local professional shooter for $400 in the actual real world in which we all live in. A business manager who would agree to $3,500 to $4,000 use fee for some mugshots made by the receptionist would be an utter idiot. It's NOT like she is Peter Hurley...


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## Nevermore1 (Nov 17, 2014)

I agree with Derrel on this.  No office is going to pay a current employee that kind of $ for a use fee especially when theu can fo down the street and get the same pics with unlimited use for a few hundred if even that much.  Also, I suspect the boss is thinking this should be considered part of your regular duties since you say he can be cheap.  When I worked at an animal hospital (in the US) it wasn't the least bit unusual for one of use to go out and mow the grass or pick weeds as upkeep of the hospital.   

If I were you I would ask for maybe $200-300 and request that you be given credit on the site for the photos and make it clear that if they want you to do more in a year then you would need to discuss pricing and terms with them again at that point in time (do it this once to get the exposure/experience but don't let them make a habit of asking you to do cheap photos for their site).


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 17, 2014)

Keith's right, the ASMP info. may not be useful for you, I didn't catch that you were in Canada. I think he's right on the money that usage of one photo per year would be in the range of a few hundred dollars, at least for commercial, promotional use. I think though for staff portraits the price range would be more in line with portrait photography.

I might think about checking out pricing of portrait and commercial photographers in your area to get an idea what the going rate is like. That might help you show your employer how much it could cost for the company to hire/contract a photographer, so you price within range while keeping it reasonable.

Typically for commercial or business use photo credits aren't used; they're more likely to be seen in magazines or newspapers. So I wouldn't expect the photographer's name will be on the photos, and to me working for 'exposure' is not appropriate instead of being paid.

Whatever is decided it would probably be better to have a contract that specifies a time frame for usage (most likely 1 year). I'm not sure if doing this for a current employer is necessarily the best idea; I'd think about pursuing opportunities elsewhere so you can be hired and contracted for your photography work without any conflict(s) doing this for a current boss.


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## Designer (Nov 17, 2014)

And of course, the question that hasn't been asked yet: Are your photography skills at the professional level?


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## tirediron (Nov 17, 2014)

Of course we can't say for sure without knowing every detail of your employment agreement, but it's very unlikely that this would be a work for hire agreement, or considered within the reasonable bounds of "and other duties as required..." lingo.  As far as pricing goes, if you can get $3500 for this job, let me know, I'm moving to where you are.  

For reference, my price would be $175 to show up and between $25 and 50/head depending on how much work was required (is there a suitable background?  Do I bring one?  Do I have to come twice because some people can't show up for the first session? etc).  I wouldn't bother trying to seek a license fee for this sort of work, but would just go straight charges.


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## rachellebelle (Nov 18, 2014)

Designer said:


> Are you going to make the photographs at the office and on company time?  Is there anything in your DDR that includes the phrase:  "performs additional duties as required"?



Unfortunetly, I never signed a contract. This is just a privately owned business and I was employed just as they were moving into their new location. Typically photography services are not expected from an administrative position however.


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## rachellebelle (Nov 18, 2014)

Designer said:


> And of course, the question that hasn't been asked yet: Are your photography skills at the professional level?



I specialize in portrait photography and I do have paying clients. I have all the necessary equipment to create professional shots.


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## gsgary (Nov 19, 2014)

I would leave well alone let him get someone else because it will probably cause problems


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## KmH (Nov 19, 2014)

Salesmanship is a needed skill if you hope to make money doing retail photography - portraits of individuals for their private use.
Portrait photography of individuals for their private use is a different business from portrait photography for a commercial use.

Salesmanship and negotiating skills are needed if you hope to make money doing commercial photography.
Charge what you think the traffic will bear, but use best business practices when it comes to the paperwork needed to protect your interests - your contract and use licensing.

The use license used for portraits of individuals for their private use is often called a Print Release and is substantially different from the use license needed for a commercial use.

While a small business could buy a camera, lens, and lighting system, the production of professional quality portrait photographs requires someone have the knowledge and skill to use the equipment effectively. Someone also needs to have the post production skills needed.
The knowledge and skill the photographer brings to the table is the difference.

If one can cover their business costs shooting a job like that for $400 - more power to them.


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## tirediron (Nov 19, 2014)

KmH said:


> Salesmanship is a needed skill if you hope to make money doing retail photography - portraits of individuals for their private use.
> Portrait photography of individuals for their private use is a different business from portrait photography for a commercial use.
> 
> Salesmanship and negotiating skills are needed if you hope to make money doing commercial photography.
> ...


If we were talking about shooting the top floor Wal-mart executives, I'd agree with you 100% Keith, and on this, I don't disagree with you in principle, but the reality is, I don't imagine any small medical clinic is going to pay those rates.  They'll pick up a Craig's List pro for <$100 or just forget it altogether.  One of the problems that we're facing is that many people no longer see the difference professional work makes because they're so used to cell-'phone snaps and so on.  Assuming all went as planned, this should be <90 minutes on site, and <30 in post.  Add in another 30 for e-mail/telecon with the client, and you're at 2.5 hours for >$400.  That seems reasonable to me, and certainly fits in well within my business calculations.


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## dennybeall (Nov 19, 2014)

Do you like the company and the people and want to keep working there?  Personally I'd be happy to do it and only ask that any expenses be covered. It would be a great opportunity to hone your craft and get a couple of kudos in the process. Everything is not always about the money.


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## tirediron (Nov 19, 2014)

dennybeall said:


> Do you like the company and the people and want to keep working there?  Personally I'd be happy to do it and only ask that any expenses be covered. It would be a great opportunity to hone your craft and get a couple of kudos in the process. *Everything is not always about the money*.


True, but there's also the danger of becoming the 'go to' person, and all of a sudden a whole new set of duties are 'expected'.  It's amazing how many things people want photographed when they have a free pro readily to hand.


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## dennybeall (Nov 20, 2014)

Good point tirediron but also when the boss is looking to promote a new supervisor or manager he also may think Oh yea, that guy is always willing to step in and help, let's give him a try at the job... worked well for me for 33 years- could work for this person also.


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## Braineack (Nov 20, 2014)

KmH said:


> If one can cover their business costs shooting a job like that for $400 - more power to them.



and that's why she's a full time receptionist and not a poor, homeless, starving photographer with an unreasonable pricing structure.


these are pictures for a website for crying out loud.  Bring your camera to work, take some pictures, and move on with life.  Someone with an iphone will be willing to do it and they'll just use those pictures instead.


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 20, 2014)

I've done things to pitch in and help at work - covering for someone who's absent, working on a committee/project, etc. To me this seems to go beyond typical work duties but It probably depends on the work situation; with usage of photos online and now on social media I'd want to at least be clear on how my photos would be used and I'd expect some reasonable limits/guidelines. Photos of staff seem like they'd have more limited use than for example photos of the workplace that could be used for advertising/promotions.


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## cgw (Nov 20, 2014)

With respect, what's the opportunity cost of your time as a portrait photographer?

How much time can several low-res headshots and a bit of editing realistically absorb, especially if you have some experience?

Make sure you get credit for the shots but I'd pass on pushing for a payday. I'd look at a few hours work as a way to strengthen your relationship with your boss. You never
know when you'll need a favor.

I don't see this as self-exploitation. Do it or demur.


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 20, 2014)

Photo credits aren't typically used for advertising or promotional purposes so I wouldn't expect the photographer's name would be used with the photos.

Since this is for the company's own website I don't know if they'd use the name or not. If there's no payment or compensation then this might be done for the boss's appreciation or whatever other benefit there might be in doing this for the company.


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## Stormin_ (Nov 20, 2014)

I think it depends on the sort of person your boss is and what made him/her decide to get the photos done.

Was s/he asked by their boss to get some professional photos done for the website? Or did s/he just think "oh, we have a professional portrait photographer on staff, maybe we could do some pictures for the website".

If it's the latter then trying to charge several hundred dollars for the job would simply cause them to say "nah forget it" and do it themselves with their daughter's pink compact. I've seen many rubbish photos like that on websites and in buildings... they are sufficient for small companies without 'perfectionist' managers.

I know that I, unless directed by the CEO or another Director to get it done professionally on the company card, would tell you to get stuffed and would not ask you again for the cheek of asking to be paid for a favour to your employer.

Personally I don't think it's worth the aggravation. Either do it as a favour / for experience or don't do it at all, because it's not worth it if things go sour (and pooping on your own doorstep usually does.)


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## Braineack (Nov 21, 2014)

In the time this thread has gone on.  I took 20 headshots of coworkers and posted them on our intranet.


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## tirediron (Nov 21, 2014)

Stormin_ said:


> I think it depends on the sort of person your boss is and what made him/her decide to get the photos done.
> 
> Was s/he asked by their boss to get some professional photos done for the website? Or did s/he just think "oh, we have a professional portrait photographer on staff, maybe we could do some pictures for the website".
> 
> ...


If I follow that line of logic to its final conclusion, shouldn't I just work for free all the time then?  Isn't it rude of me to expect to be paid at all?  While it's certainly not all about money, and I do not begrudge doing a favour for someone (I do many thousands of dollars worth of free/charity/favour work every year), business is business and if the boss asks me to pick up a spare of box of staples from the shop next door to where I'm buying lunch, that's one thing, but when it requires several hours of work, and the use of several thousand dollars worth of equipment that I've paid for, I think we're starting to get outside the "favour" category.  Would the same boss expect Bill's Plumbing to come in and fix the leaking bathroom tap for free?


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## Braineack (Nov 21, 2014)

tirediron said:


> If I follow that line of logic to its final conclusion, shouldn't I just work for free all the time then?  Isn't it rude of me to expect to be paid at all?  While it's certainly not all about money, and I do not begrudge doing a favour for someone (I do many thousands of dollars worth of free/charity/favour work every year), business is business and if the boss asks me to pick up a spare of box of staples from the shop next door to where I'm buying lunch, that's one thing, but when it requires several hours of work, and the use of several thousand dollars worth of equipment that I've paid for, I think we're starting to get outside the "favour" category.  Would the same boss expect Bill's Plumbing to come in and fix the leaking bathroom tap for free?



careful. youll start giving the right people the wrong sort of ideas...


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## Stormin_ (Nov 21, 2014)

tirediron said:


> If I follow that line of logic to its final conclusion, shouldn't I just work for free all the time then?



I don't think you understood.

The boss sounds like they are looking for a free ticket.
You then offer them $400 of work for $400.
Not what the boss wanted as they probably don't need $400 worth of pictures for their purposes (unless an offer they can't refuse such as for free).
It's a small, private clinic. Social interactions can have a big impact on your job and happiness within that job. The OP's language already indicates some underlying tension between employee and boss (but where is there ever not).
It would be completely different if you worked for a big company.

Is it worth the potential aggravation for the sake of $400?

I'm not saying you should work for free, no way. But if you're not willing to do _this favour_ for free as implied by the boss then walk away and get business from somewhere you can have a direct client relationship with.


Saying all this, it's tricky to judge situations across the internet with only a snippet of information provided.
Only the OP knows everything in its entirety, including the personalities of everyone involved and how they react / will react. It should absolutely be their call at the end of the day.
Either way talk with the boss and make sure you're both completely aware of what the plan is i.e. don't do the pictures and _then_ slap a surprise invoice on their desk that they weren't expecting. But I hope that goes without saying this time...


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## Derrel (Nov 21, 2014)

And to think we have people advocating that this one-hour, slam-bang mugshot shoot be done at price points ranging from FREE, to $3,500 to $4,000 for a one-year licensing fee!


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## Braineack (Nov 21, 2014)

guess who will get the job?


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## dennybeall (Nov 22, 2014)

Perhaps the key is It's not a job just a favor for a co-worker.


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 22, 2014)

Probably only the OP can determine the work situation and if this is worth doing or passing on this and let the company figure out what to do when they need photos. I would think there's a possibility that if it starts with this and then they want photos taken at an open house or of the shop for an ad or whatever, at some point an employee could feel like the boss is taking advantage of their efforts.

To me it's a stretch from pitching in and helping with more job related day to day duties, such as covering for someone who needs to leave early to pick up their sick kid at school or to help clean upon a busy day, to doing staff photos. And then what happens if they don't like the photos... might end up being a situation of being sorry you bothered.


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