# A personal challenge for all photographers who shoot nudes



## Efergoh (Dec 3, 2006)

If there is a better place for this thread, Moderators, please move it and accept my apologies, but I figure that this is the most traveled forum on the board, so....

As of late, I have been shooting a lot of nudes. 4 models over the last month have dropped trou for my camera. The shortest set was 7 rolls of 120 film, the longest was 16. These young ladies have entrusted me with their modesty.

I have up til now had a rather cavalier attitude regarding nudes. I have been of the mind that with God being the greatest artist of them all and the creator of the human form, who are we to be ashamed of it. I have had this attitude only because I myself have not been on the other side of the lens wearing nothing but a smile.

Who am I to display images of these beautiful women if I am not also willing to display images of myself in similar fashion? Am I not a hypocrite?

I intend to rectify that situation. I have enlisted the aid of a fellow photographer to shoot more nudes....this time the subject will be yours truely. I also intend to shoot some self portraits in the buff.

I can no longer think of myself as an artist unless I am willing to do this, and show myself to the world as I have shown others to the world.

My personal challenge is this - if you shoot nudes of other people, and display them for others, do not shoot or display another nude until you have shot and displayed a nude of yourself.

I am making this challenge before I even shoot my own (partially to keep myself from chickening out), but I also promise that I will not post another nude photo until I have posted one of myself.

Now, forwarned is forarmed....I will tell you now that I am roughly 20lbs overweight, and I am a hairy ba$tard....without regard to how well composed these photos may or may not be, they will not be pretty. 

See you in a few hours....

Anyone else have the cajones to step up to the plate on this one?


----------



## brighteyesphotos (Dec 3, 2006)

This shall be interesting... and since I haven't done any nudes, I can't step up to this challenge. After all, I was one of the models. But I can say that my avatar is a self-portrait.


----------



## Oldfireguy (Dec 3, 2006)

I don't mind shooting raw files but not in the raw.  Some things are better not seen and I am referring to me, not you.  I say go for it.  You only live once.


----------



## Puscas (Dec 3, 2006)

Go for it. 
But why should you pose nude, just because you take pictures of nudes? I think I know what you're saying, but I don't completely agree. 
You don't have to be or do everything your model is, now do you? It's an understanding between the photographer and the model. 


but, once again, go for it!





pascal


----------



## Ab$olut (Dec 3, 2006)

fredcwdoc said:
			
		

> Some things are better not seen and I am referring to me, not you.



This is what I was thinking about myself aswell...


----------



## oldnavy170 (Dec 3, 2006)

Well this is one challenge that I do NOT want to take!!!


----------



## Mr Avid (Dec 3, 2006)

I have to give away nudes of myself.....certainly, no one will buy them!  
_bada boom!_
Thank you, Im here all week! Tip your waitress!


----------



## RMThompson (Dec 4, 2006)

Efergoh said:
			
		

> If there is a better place for this thread, Moderators, please move it and accept my apologies, but I figure that this is the most traveled forum on the board, so....
> 
> As of late, I have been shooting a lot of nudes. 4 models over the last month have dropped trou for my camera. The shortest set was 7 rolls of 120 film, the longest was 16. These young ladies have entrusted me with their modesty.
> 
> ...


 
I think that is just silly, speaking as someone who is a sensual photographer as well.

If you are BEGGING women to get naked for you, I can understand your point, but if they are clients, or willing participants, then good for you.

It seems you might be feeling guilty about what you do.

Besides, there is a reason I shoot the shots that I do... the women want me too, and they are BEAUTIFUL, works of art.

My body is far from a work of art!


----------



## Arch (Dec 4, 2006)

I'v moved this to the photographic discussions section, as i think its better placed here. fwiw... im not sure i understand the logic... nudes in my eyes are an expression of art.... but if your the artist, you should have reason for the expressive nature of your nudes... i.e. you are trying to convey an emotion... or your displaying a naked body purely for its aesthetic beauty and form.... to use the reason that you just want to do to yourself what you've done to others doesn't convey any artisitc direction to me... just my 2 cents... but just as a bit of fun... its a good idea


----------



## morydd (Dec 4, 2006)

I can't really say how I feel about this one, as (thus far) I've never attempted to take/display nudes of anyone, but I do think I see both sides. While I don't think, for most people, they need to do nude self-portraits in order to feel that they are being "fair" to their art, I can understand the impulse to put yourself into that situation in order to have a fuller understanding of what you're doing.

That said, I do remember having come across an interesting series (I can't remember anything about where I saw it) of exactly what you were talking about. It was a series of nudes, in which a photographer shot a "typical" nude with a model, and then using the same pose and lighting, did a matching shot of themself. It was actually quite interesting.

I say go for it (speaing as a chubby (substantially more than 20lbs), hairy man myself.)


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 4, 2006)

Archangel said:
			
		

> I'v moved this to the photographic discussions section, as i think its better placed here. fwiw



Roger that, thanks.



			
				Archangel said:
			
		

> ... im not sure i understand the logic...



I usually don't understand my logic, either.  at least not right off. Perhaps that is why I am a photographer. I get a simple notion, and through the act of creating photos, I develop a notion into a line of thought. Works for me anyway...



			
				RMThompson said:
			
		

> I think that is just silly, speaking as someone who is a sensual photographer as well.
> 
> If you are BEGGING women to get naked for you, I can understand your point, but if they are clients, or willing participants, then good for you.
> 
> It seems you might be feeling guilty about what you do.



No, I'm not begging women to drop trou, they have all been willing participants, and they have all come back for more, frankly because I think that I make them look like the beautiful creatures that they are.

I think that this stems from the 10 years I spent in the Marine Corps. My leadership style as a non-commissioned officer was one that was hands on. I never asked or ordered any of the men in my command to do something that I either had not done myself or that I myself was not willing to do.

Brighteyesphotos, another member here on this forum helped me out last night, and we shot for about 2-3 hours. I have a good deal of weeding to do before I post anything, but I will post them tonight at the latest.

I did learna few things last night, as did Brighteyes. Photographers make horribly difficult models...never use a drafty room during the winter to take male nudes...I need to get my butt to the gym...and am I really this hairy?


----------



## terri (Dec 4, 2006)

I actually follow the logic here, however strange or skewered it might seem at first glance. The idea, as far as it makes sense to me, is just about _feeling it_. We are symbolically exposing a great deal of ourselves just by putting our work out there; why not blast the metaphor?  

I've already gone that route, personally, but I wouldn't post them. It may indeed feel like part of the journey for me, but that doesn't mean it has to be a _public_ part of the journey. 

I may do it again and, with a different series of images to inspect, I might feel differently. The whole premise of self portraits is sort of boring to me, but that might be masking discomfort and is therefore something I should possibly explore. I don't know.


----------



## markc (Dec 4, 2006)

I've shot a couple of nude sessions, and I've posed for a couple of implied nude shots, but I don't think the photographer *has* to pose nude in order to not be a hypocrite. The model supplies a skill at modeling and the photographer a skill at photography. It really depends on the kind of image you want to make. I don't think I make a very good model, so my time is better spent behind the camera rather than in front of it.

But hats off to you for giving it a go. It takes some guts, but it also can feel rather liberating. It does seem like a good idea in that it helps you better understand the modeling side of it.


----------



## Big Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

If all it does, at the very least...is to give your models a chuckle (and a more relaxed feeling)...then it's worth it.


----------



## newrmdmike (Dec 4, 2006)

oh man, i'm in


----------



## neea (Dec 4, 2006)

I agree that it may help relax future models more if you have nudes of yourself to show them.
That way they know you understand how stressful it can be on the other end of the camera.
I've done both and being the subject you're completley self conscious of every single inch of your body.

i say go for it. it may be more fun than you anticipate


----------



## toastydeath (Dec 4, 2006)

In sum, my experience is that being completely jaded to sex and sexuality is what makes a good nude photographer.  Someone who just doesn't see that aspect anymore, and is free to produce art.

I have:

been photographed nude
taken photographs of nude models
been in pornography
photographed pornography

I do fetish/nude stuff, exclusively.  I don't shoot nature, inanimate objects, macros, landscapes, sunsets, portraits, or anything else.  My models ask me to take the pictures.  Very nervous, first time girls have gone in, and confident ones come out.

Having a wealth of experience being naked in front of a camera helps measures in understanding what is going on.  However, I don't believe one experience in front of said camera is going to help a huge amount.  It took me awhile before I was jaded enough to truly not care who was naked and who wasn't.  I've had plenty of friends over the years who were models, strippers, escorts, and in the pornographic industry.  They echo this sentiment.

However, seeing someone else naked or knowing they were does nothing to alleviate stress.  Saying "Oh, I know what it's like" is not a good idea.  You don't know what it's like for *them*, despite personal experience.  To suggest two experiences are similar is absurd.  It's a very personal thing, and the best you can do is show them the highest degree of respect and concern for their well-being.  My experience has been this:  Be a true professional.  What the nervous model wants is usually an understanding eunuch.

When I am taking photos, my sensuality and sexuality are nowhere to be found.  I just don't care.  The only thing I am concentrating on is what I am going to show, and how I am going to show it.  The model picks up on this, and always relaxes in the first couple shots.


----------



## table1349 (Dec 4, 2006)

Efergoh said:
			
		

> I think that this stems from the 10 years I spent in the Marine Corps. My leadership style as a non-commissioned officer was one that was hands on. I never asked or ordered any of the men in my command to do something that I either had not done myself or that I myself was not willing to do.


I am curious.  In you 10 years in the Corps, did they have to shoot you with an M16 to give you the idea that a .223 can, when properly placed, kill you.  I shoot sports for a local collage, but do not feel that I have to become fodder for a middle linebacker to shoot their football games.  Just a thought here.


----------



## df3photo (Dec 4, 2006)

I like this idea... I will debate on doing it myself... I am also alittle over weight, but less hairy...
 I have had models that I approached about doing nudes ask me if I would do it myself... and I have not, and never really thought about it. I think it may help put their minds a little more at ease with modeling nude. But I see everyone elses point here also.  Why do it? Well, Why not....?  
 I have shot nudes of females mostly. As far as males go Ive shot bodybuilders but not in the buff, just down to the speedo... And well, Im no bodybuilder... I am going to consider this challenge. if I think of an idea for the shoot, I will shoot it. (although it is winter, and i dont have a studio...)
 hope yours turned out well...


----------



## Puscas (Dec 4, 2006)

toastydeath said:
			
		

> Saying "Oh, I know what it's like" is not a good idea.  You don't know what it's like for *them*, despite personal experience.  To suggest two experiences are similar is absurd.  It's a very personal thing, and the best you can do is show them the highest degree of respect and concern for their well-being.



exactemundo! :thumbup:








pascal


----------



## df3photo (Dec 4, 2006)

Puscas said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by toastydeath
> Saying "Oh, I know what it's like" is not a good idea. You don't know what it's like for them, despite personal experience. To suggest two experiences are similar is absurd. It's a very personal thing, and the best you can do is show them the highest degree of respect and concern for their well-being.
> 
> ...





I can agree with that Totally.  If a person doesn't want to shoot, all you can do is explain to them everything about the shoot from where its going to be shot to whats going to happen with the photo later. A tasteful picture of yourself nude may or may not help the situation. But it is a personal event for everyone and everyone is different. If they are unsure about doing it you would probably get a bad result in the end anyway. all in all I guess an old teacher of mine was right when he said "nothing in photography should be forced....whether it is a piece of equipment or a model..."

 I may have gone off topic there... it was working out in my head at the time....


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 4, 2006)

gryphonslair99 said:
			
		

> I am curious.  In you 10 years in the Corps, did they have to shoot you with an M16 to give you the idea that a .223 can, when properly placed, kill you.


That is a might extreme, and a bit of a stretch for an analogy.

honestly folks, if you don't feel up to the "challenge" or simply don't wish to have anything to do with it, you don't need to be personaly offended. You do not need to defend yourselves from me.

But, for me, I'm not jaded about sex, I am not a eunich. When a woman takes off her clothes, I respond physically like any heterosexual man would and should. but, the professional doesn't act on that response...that is the difference.

I feel the need to do this, not so much so I "will now what it is like" because you're right, one experience is not enough, but you know what? It will give me a frame of referrence. A pause for thought if you will. I think this experience will make me a more considerate photographer....no...I know it will.

If you don't want to take nudes of yourself fine, I really could care less. I posted this here on the net as one way to keep myself from backing out. It is out there, and folks are expecting me to follow through with photos (they are coming, I promise, I'm sorting and editing now).

But I think that what you should do is go take self portraits of any kind. I've done this before with very little thought, but now I am finding that I am much more critical of the photos. I do not know why, but I am.

This afternoon, I sat down with a model that I had shot last week to go over the contact sheets of the film that I had developed. There were a few shots that she didn't want printed. My kneejerk reaction was to defend those shots and insist on using them. But this experience gave me a bit of insight, I don't understand her reason doesn't want that shot printed, but I can sympathize with the reasoning. I still defended the shot, and told her why I thought it was important to the set, but I was a bit softer in my delivery, and took her concerns into consideration.

This sort of thing will make me a better photographer....might not work for you, and might not be your cup of tea, but I don't see any reason for anyone to poo poo what I take pics of.


----------



## toastydeath (Dec 4, 2006)

I'm certainly not challenging YOU, personally.  I've got no idea how much experience you have in this area, and I'm not going to question your methods of establishing rapport with new models if you've done this a lot and have a method that works.  It certainly sounds like you've got the experience to not skeeve models out, and I really appreciate that.

However, I am most certainly trying to discourage near-first time nude photographers who may be taking pictures of nude, first-time models from using this method or any derived methods.

I've met girls who have told me (in passing conversation) that they'd been completely turned off to nude photography due to a poor experience with an otherwise decent photographer doing weird stuff like this.  I'd prefer to keep the potential model base as wide as possible by not having good photographers do weird things to the models for the first couple nude photoshoots they do.


----------



## df3photo (Dec 5, 2006)

I can see both sides...


			
				Efergoh said:
			
		

> I don't see any reason for anyone to poo poo what I take pics of.


 I agree with the Sergeant, that no one should put down the subject on what anyone is shooting, which I'm not sure was done... plus.... he said poo poo...hahah:lmao:


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 5, 2006)

While I'm personally offended at this project being called wierd  I appreciate and understand where you're coming from.

I have not been shooting nudes for very long at all, truth be told. I'm certainly not going to whip out nudes of myself every time a model comes into my studio...yes, that would be creepy. I'm doing this for my own personal growth. Like I said, I will never ask someone to do something that I myself am not willing to do. I'm just putting my money where my mouth is.

In all honesty, I have shot a grand total of 4 models (not counting myself). One is a significant other, one is the wife of a good friend, the other two are fellow students of photography. One of the fellow students has a good bit of experience in modeling, the other was the one who was eager to shoot, but was nervous about doing so...she was also the most recent, and what made me want to understand that nervousness.


Speaking of putting my money where my mouth is....

Since site rules require links for nudes rather than images...here is the link. Put on your rose colored glasses before you view these, if you would. 

_link removed_


----------



## Puscas (Dec 5, 2006)

*



			inspect the belly button for lint prior to shooting
		
Click to expand...



:lmao::lmao:

classic!*
*




pascal 




*


----------



## df3photo (Dec 5, 2006)

Nice work. Tasteful shots.
  You got me beat... if I did nudes they would have to be mostly from the back... (plus, i have a sweet ass...:lmao: )


----------



## bitteraspects (Dec 5, 2006)

i shoot all my nudes completely nude. does that count?????


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 5, 2006)

bitteraspects said:
			
		

> i shoot all my nudes completely nude. does that count?????



Only if you did them on Waikiki Beach at noon on a Saturday.  :thumbup:


----------



## bitteraspects (Dec 5, 2006)

nah i usually do it friday or saturday. its generally busier


----------



## toastydeath (Dec 5, 2006)

Efergoh said:
			
		

> While I'm personally offended at this project being called wierd  I appreciate and understand where you're coming from.
> 
> I have not been shooting nudes for very long at all, truth be told. I'm certainly not going to whip out nudes of myself every time a model comes into my studio...yes, that would be creepy. I'm doing this for my own personal growth. Like I said, I will never ask someone to do something that I myself am not willing to do. I'm just putting my money where my mouth is.
> 
> ...



Hahah, I give you major props for the execution.

Putting yourself on display for the first (and second, and third) time is definitely a nerve-wracking experience for most people.  You have pretty good nerves to come up with and stand by an idea like this.  

I wish you luck in your future nude expeditions. =)


----------



## craig (Dec 5, 2006)

Well thought out. The images are excellent, but I missed the post to the ladies. 

All joking aside... Self portraits are mandatory if we are going to understand our photographic process. If I was in that genre I would take the same approach.


----------



## Iron Flatline (Dec 5, 2006)

Long thread, my attention span made me give up 2/3s down.

In short: I can see posing nude if it will make you a better photographer - if it will help you understand some of the inhibitions faced by models, and how to make the model feel more comfortable. 

But if this is an emotional issue for you - a compensation for guilt, or some kind of moral conundrum, then shoot animals for a while. God made those, too - and they're already naked! And you can always put little hats on them!


----------



## Iron Flatline (Dec 5, 2006)

Hey, I just read the rest of the thread. Good pics of you. I think you look normal, not overweight - normal is not the Abercrombie catalog. On a purely aesthetical basis you might want to consider waxing your chest, or shaving the hair really short. A beard trimmer is best for that. You've got enough muscle tone, may as well bring it out. 

Oh, and I disagree with what some others wrote. Experiences CAN be shared, they're not all totally unique all the time. You may not be able to replicate someone else's set of reference points, but if you're 8/10th there that's better than not having been through it at all.


----------



## terri (Dec 5, 2006)

:salute: This has to have been a satisfying project for you, congrats on seeing it through. Well done.


----------



## brighteyesphotos (Dec 5, 2006)

oh damn, you didn't include the corner shot. :greenpbl:  

*note to self* take the UV filter off when inside. 

And it took him nearly 2 years to sit still for me and get a decent portrait of him. And to quote him... nah... I won't unless he says I can. :mrgreen:


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 5, 2006)

brighteyesphotos said:
			
		

> oh damn, you didn't include the corner shot. :greenpbl:



No, that one was a little too, _in your face_.



			
				brighteyesphotos said:
			
		

> And to quote him... nah... I won't unless he says I can. :mrgreen:



Don't you dare.


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 5, 2006)

terri said:
			
		

> :salute: This has to have been a satisfying project for you, congrats on seeing it through. Well done.



It was actually, thank you....

And it has given me a lot more ideas about how I want to shoot nudes in the future....with a little more mystery and a little less T&A.


----------



## df3photo (Dec 6, 2006)

haha, i still say well done. and I guess the areas of your body you may have been concerned with can be thought about when shooting others... so I can see how it would help a bit.
   good work.


----------



## mysteryscribe (Dec 6, 2006)

I can speak from only personal feelings here.... I am sixty plus years old, you DONT want to see any of the people I know nude... Me included...


----------



## bryanwhite (Dec 12, 2006)

I see where you are coming from, and I think you stated it best when you said


> ...what made me want to understand that nervousness.



I never looked at your posts and thought you might feel guilty about what you're shooting.  I can certainly understand if you are having new models undressing for you and your camera, seeing them being nervous and wanting to understand the nervousness.  I don't think there's any value in telling the models you have done it yourself, it's a personal thing for you and now you've done it.  I congratulate you on taking a step I would not take, as I am pretty sure my being in that position of being photographed nude would cause irreparable damage to my camera's lens...not to mention the mental damage to any photographer behind the camera.


----------



## newrmdmike (Dec 13, 2006)

bravo man . . . now for me.  haha, crap i'm feeling that nervousness now, and i'm not even going to take the pictures today.


----------



## Nurd (Dec 13, 2006)

ha ha, nudes. I wouldn't take a picture of myself nude..I also don't know if I could take one of someone else nude. Unless of course it was for my significant other. *shrugs* Bring on the nudes!!


----------



## RMThompson (Dec 21, 2006)

OK I finally looked at the pictures... and I have to say that while the first bunch were tasteful, (albeit not art), you ruined it by having a picture where you are holding yourself in the manner you are.

When shooting a nude model, with the exception of porn, the nudity is "there" and while the shots sometimes do focus in on body parts, they are usually done to enhance the lines and shapes of the image. 

The female equivalent to what you were doing in that shot would be something I won't mention, but quite pornographic. I have a small part of me that wonders if you didn't take the entire series to "show off" this part of your body, and possible show it to others... maybe even the models you photograph.

HOWEVER from your posts, I don't get that personality from you, so giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will say that you are extremely brave to take the pictures in the first place, and with the exception of the photo I mention above, you did a great job in posing.

I think you've accomplished what you set out to do, experience something models experience, and maybe share some of that with them in a shoot... while I still doubt that they can relate, your pics were used exclusively for your own use and I doubt they will be published elsewhere, I am sure they can appreciate hearing that you've been through something similar.

I would not show them to them however, as the artistic differences between what I assume you are trying to do with them, and what you did with this shot.


----------



## Efergoh (Dec 22, 2006)

Well....I guess it is a good thing that art is subjective...huh?

No, showing off was the last thing on my agenda. If that were the case, I probably would have had some sort of "enhancing" surgical procedure before hand.

Before I shot these, I studied male nudes from several different photographers, and emulated their styles and poses to the best of my ability. I apologize if you were offended by my fluglehorn.

No, I won't be sharing these photos with anyone else nor will they be published. I actually took that page down a few days ago. You must have had a look before and the images were cashed on yoru computer...


----------



## RMThompson (Dec 22, 2006)

Efergoh said:
			
		

> Well....I guess it is a good thing that art is subjective...huh?
> 
> No, showing off was the last thing on my agenda. If that were the case, I probably would have had some sort of "enhancing" surgical procedure before hand.
> 
> ...


 
I meant no disrespect... I hope you know that.

Yes in honesty, I looked at them days ago, just never got around to posting a response... however I feel you deserved one for your bravery!


----------



## ftops (Dec 26, 2006)

well, everything is everything.

if you are out in the rockies shooting elk at a watering hole, you dont have to spend time eating berries and being watchful of predators to avoid hypocracy.  the elk are who they are, and you are simply recording this through an image for others to see.  to experience an elk firsthand isnt necessary, just as posing nude yourself isnt necessary.

clearly, this is just a matter of feeling that you have to have a stronger connection to your work.  instead of participating in one aspect, you look at it literally from a different perspective.  i dont think something like this is a matter of saying "see, im not afraid to do it so everything is cool", i would think of it more as a matter of "i want to experience my work in as many different ways as i can so as to better myself at what i do and be more knowledgable", because man created clothing, and if anything should feel unnatural or uncomfortable it should be that we are being photographed with strange material hanging from our bodies.

...in other words, let it all hang out.


----------



## zombiekilla (Dec 27, 2006)

df3photo said:
			
		

> Nice work. Tasteful shots.
> You got me beat... if I did nudes they would have to be mostly from the back... (plus, i have a sweet ass...:lmao: )


****is waiting to see THESE ones!!!****


----------



## Soocom1 (Dec 27, 2006)

Sir!

First: I will tell you that I fully understand your logic givien that you served in the Corps. 
Second: I also belive in the logic that if you cant follow, you cant lead! First rule of leadership is to get your hands dirty.
Sir!


----------



## df3photo (Jan 2, 2007)

> ****is waiting to see THESE ones!!!****


 
 ahh... i totally forgot about that... hmm...


----------

