# but copyright doesn't apply on the internet...



## Meysha (Nov 28, 2007)

I despise people who think they can get their own way, around the law, just by being a complete rude asshole.

Another real estate agent has stolen my photographs off an agent's page who actually paid for them. Now this second agent is using the photographs to try and sell the same house.

I sent him a letter advising him of the 'mistake' he had made and ask that he remove them from the few websites I found them on and any others because I hold the copyright and he's infringing on that. (Under Aussie law - don't get me confused with other country's laws. read all about australian copyright law here: www.copyright.org.au )

Anyway, nothing happened, so I sent the same letter as an email. He rang me and he said that they took the photos and they own them, then said it's not stealing anyway because they're on the internet, oh and they didn't have a copyright watermark on them. Then he had the balls to say I'm not a legit business and I must be a relative of the agents and am just trying to give him a hard time. Then he said just to sue him if it's against the law and that I can get stuffed and that I'll have to prove to him that they're my photos.

So after an afternoon of researching copyright laws and trying to get the photos removed from the websites from the providers I wrote him another email. 

This one again, gives him a "get out of jail free card", by saying I understand mistakes happen, but if you fix it it's all good. and I also sent him the links to copyright law in australia.... and I attached some screenshots from lightroom and my archive folder etc showing some metadata and other info to prove they're mine.

let's see what happens now.

I wouldn't have cared really... and didn't... I've known this guy was using them for about a week now and it didn't bother me. But as soon as he questioned my businesses integrity and slammed me I seriously thought this guy is an asshole and deserves to be put in his place.

GRRRRRRRR 

[/vent]

advice anyone?

oh and this is an incredibly well known business world wide so I'm thinking of advising the regional manager or someone like that about his unprofessional behaviour.


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## raider (Nov 28, 2007)

fry him


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## Josh66 (Nov 28, 2007)

Meysha said:


> oh and this is an incredibly well known business world wide so I'm thinking of advising the regional manager or someone like that about his unprofessional behaviour.


Send a letter to the corporate office stating that due to this guy's incompetence you may be forced to take legal action against them.


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## Battou (Nov 28, 2007)

copyrights are automatically in force at creation, without being asserted or declared: an author need not "register" or "apply for" a copyright. As soon as a work is "fixed", that is, written or recorded on some physical medium, its author is automatically entitled to all copyrights in the work and to any derivative works, unless and until the author explicitly disclaims them or until the copyright expires. 

I am fairly sure this applies in australia


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## jstuedle (Nov 28, 2007)

Give 'em hell Vicky, give 'em hell!


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## Big Mike (Nov 28, 2007)

Threaten to contact his ISP...and have his web site shut down....or just go ahead and contact them anyway.


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## skieur (Nov 28, 2007)

I agree with Mike.  Contact his ISP, indicate that he has stolen your photo, and suggest that ISPs can be liable, if they have been given notice of copyright violation and have taken no action to rectify it.

I would also send a copy by registered mail of an invoice for use of the photo in question, backdated to the time you first spotted it on the net.
If the realtor is not independent, I would also send a copy to the head of the real estate office that he is associated with.

Then I would consider selling the invoice to a collection agency as a bad debt which would affect the guy's credit rating.  (You might decide to tell him that, if there is no action.)

skieur


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## wildmaven (Nov 28, 2007)

Is he hotlinking the photos from your client? If so, then have your client change the image on him. Make an image that says, "This image has been hotlinked without permission. Would you want to buy a house from such a person?" and then name it exactly the same filename of the one he hotlinked and have your client upload it. Of course, this means changing the name and link to the legit file so that it still works for your client.


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## nossie (Nov 28, 2007)

layball:Talking's over biatch!


Log every call and probably best to use registered mail from here on out.  Sue him for the use of the photos already.  I suppose it's about a day's work or whatever a stock agency charges for a web resolution shot.  Anyway all the talking is done, you tried that and he said stuff you and suggested you sue him so....!


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## Meysha (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm going to contact their head office here in Brisbane today to complain about it. Luckily it's just around the corner from me so I might even head in in person.

Does anyone know how to find out the ISP or where a website is hosted? I've found out who they registered the domain name with through a whois lookup. But I don't know how to contact where it's hosted.


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## astrostu (Nov 28, 2007)

I agree with most of what's been said.  And it sounds like you're starting to take those steps.  I would suggest the following steps (for clarification and summary of the above) ...

(1)  Contact their head office.

(2)  Contact their ISP.

(3)  Send one more cease and desist letter (through registered mail) to them and their head office, putting the little cc line so each knows the other knows of this situation.

(4)  Sue.

Terminate the above step progression should they actually comply.


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## Snyder (Nov 28, 2007)

Make sure to embedd copyright info into the photo.


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## Meysha (Nov 29, 2007)

Snyder said:


> Make sure to embedd copyright info into the photo.



I do this. But when they upload to the real estate site it strips the meta data and compresses the files again.
I only did 3 or so houses without watermarks on them about 3 months ago. It's just annoying how this guy believes he has a right to them.

Well I didn't hear anything back from my second letter today so I'm sending a letter to the head office this afternoon.

Thanks for the support guys.


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## jon_k (Nov 29, 2007)

wildmaven said:


> Isx Make an image that says, "This image has been hotlinked without permission. Would you want to buy a house from such a person?" and then name it exactly the same filename of the one he hotlinked and have your client upload it. x



This is a good idea, but I'd rather use a HIGHLY obscene and offense photograph in place.

Anyways, I can track the ISP down if you provide the domain name.

Basically you do an NSLOOKUP on the domain name to get an IP address, then you run a WHOIS on the IP to find out who the IP block has been assigned to. The person who has been assigned the IP block is the organization who can shut down access to the server/website if they so desire, and more than likely have the server hosted in their facilities. If you do a WHOIS on their (the providers) domain you might find an abuse contact section, or if you visit the providers website find a way to contact abuse.

Tell the ISP that you are contacting lawyers currently and that you will begin legal pursuit if the content is not removed and that by hosting the content they are in part liable if they provide no action.

For your information and believe it or not, I work for an organization that provides web hosting and I happen to be in charge of handling abuse complaints and giving disciplinary action to customers. Also for your information, some ISP's could care less and will can your email. Others take abuse pretty seriously. At my organization we provide 24 hours for the client to remove content once we notify them, otherwise we disconnect their server(s) at the network level. (Then they call in wanting it back online, and we bring it online if, and only if they comply with our requests shortly thereafter.)


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## photogincollege (Nov 29, 2007)

keep us updated on what happens too!


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## Alex_B (Nov 29, 2007)

as long as you have the high res original, proving that the images are yours is trivial.

but you do not have to prove it in front of him, but in front of the authorities. don't spend more time communicating with him at all (ok, i understand that you stopped that anyway now  ), that only might worsen your situation.


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## Meysha (Nov 29, 2007)

I agree with you Alex. I'm not going to waste my time with him any more if he just continues to ignore me.

I posted the letter to their State Operations Manager today. Basically outlining all that has happened so far... and advising him that if he doesn't contact me by Monday or if the photos aren't down by then, then I'm contacting their ISP and taking it further.

Let's see what happens.

hmmm I hope this gets solved quickly... i leave the country in a week. :-(


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## Meysha (Nov 29, 2007)

jon_k said:


> This is a good idea, but I'd rather use a HIGHLY obscene and offense photograph in place.


tee hee hee... I would soooo do this.... ahh if only they were hotlinking. I've been waiting ever since the net started to do this to someone. hehehe.



> Anyways, I can track the ISP down if you provide the domain name.
> 
> Basically you do an NSLOOKUP on the domain name to get an IP address, then you run a WHOIS on the IP to find out who the IP block has been assigned to. The person who has been assigned the IP block is the organization who can shut down access to the server/website if they so desire, and more than likely have the server hosted in their facilities. If you do a WHOIS on their (the providers) domain you might find an abuse contact section, or if you visit the providers website find a way to contact abuse.


hmm... ok didn't really understand that... so I'm sending you a PM with the business name. If you could look it up for me and let me know who I should contact I'd be ever so grateful!  :hug::



> Tell the ISP that you are contacting lawyers currently and that you will begin legal pursuit if the content is not removed and that by hosting the content they are in part liable if they provide no action.


The images are also on www.realestate.com.au and www.domain.com.au our two biggest real estate websites and I contacted them and they basically brushed me off and said they couldn't do anything about it.... even though I read in their ToS that they can. Eventhough I told them that, they still brushed me off... i requested to speak to someone else and the guy I was talking to said yeah I could but they're just gonna say the same thing. GRRR!!!!



> I happen to be in charge of handling abuse complaints and giving disciplinary action to customers.



I love you!



> At my organization we provide 24 hours for the client to remove content once we notify them, otherwise we disconnect their server(s) at the network level. (Then they call in wanting it back online, and we bring it online if, and only if they comply with our requests shortly thereafter.)


So you take down their entire website? wow.... that would be awesome.


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## jon_k (Nov 29, 2007)

Abuse departments at ISPs handle a variety of issues, and corporate policies vary.

All of our complaints are handled within 24 hours by our abuse team. I happen to be the head of this team and supervise all complaints for the ISP I work for. Basically that means our technicians handle the initial contact/warning and they escalate it to me for disciplinary when the customer fails to acknowledge the complaints. I make the final decision on if it is appropriate to pursue and/or shut the service offline for them.

Although we get to complaints within 24 hours, we forward the complaint on to our clients and await their action/response.

The amount of time they are given to reply varies per the offense, but in all cases if they fail to reply to our E-Mails about the allegations within the specified period then yes, we shut their entire server down at the network level (either by unplugging the network cable, or doing it using our network utilities.)

The type of time clients are given to respond depends on the offense.

If it's SPAM, copyright infringement or something non-urgent we allow 24 hours to respond to the complaints alleged. If it's hacking or online scams its 4 hours. If it's a child pornography or otherwise illegal pornography or participating in network denial of service attacks it's 2 hours.

It's really too bad the website in question isn't hosted in our facility, or by now their server(s) could already be offline awaiting compliance to our request. ;-)

We really try to handle complaints ourself before authorities get involved, because it's always a pain when the FBI shows up with a warrant and walks away with a $10,000 server that a customer leases use of for "evidence collection". We really have to nag these agencies to let us have our hardware back, and it's hardware we could be making money off of in the mean time. If we stop it before it gets to the authorities sights, we contain the problem, keep jerks off our network, and maximize profits.


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## Meysha (Nov 30, 2007)

hehehehehe. Thanks so much Jon for the info you PM'd me. That's sooo helpful. And damn we were so close to being in your facility too... that would've been fun! 

Turns out after I wrote an email to the head of state operations the images were removed. I'm not sure if it was that letter or the email I sent to the original agent referring to copyright law that say the images removed.

However, Here is his lovely email he wrote back to me on removing the images.

From: **his name** [mailto:**hisname*@#####.com.au]
Sent: Friday, 30 November 2007 1:02 PM
To: me
Subject: RE: ######



I have change all the sites with an initial photo I have just taken of dry dock with my mobile phone

Can I say that I believe that my shot of the outside is far better than your professional shot!

I will be telling everyone I know about how great your service is and how professional your photography is

-       Good luck with your business



Kind Regards

**his name**


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## Meysha (Nov 30, 2007)

Shall I post up a link to my shots and his shots? hehehehehe.

Oh and I sincerely hope that he would tell everyone he knows about how great my service is... and that I am constantly looking out for my paying customers and trying to limit internet piracy.

 hehehe.... although somehow I don't think that's what he would say.


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## jon_k (Nov 30, 2007)

> I will be telling everyone I know about how great your service is and how professional your photography is



Tell him not to market you too much.

I deal with jerks like this ALL day by phone and E-Mail, who attest to being right even when they're wrong, even if the law can prove them otherwise. Cry me a river, getting caught stealing sucks, but not as bad as this guy.

I hope he sells the house, but with an attitude and honesty like that I wouldn't buy a house through him.


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## Alex_B (Nov 30, 2007)

What a stupid jerk he is.



Meysha said:


> From: **his name** [mailto:**hisname*@#####.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, 30 November 2007 1:02 PM
> To: me
> Subject: RE: ######




too bad there are so many ##### ;-)


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## AmberA100 (Nov 30, 2007)

Wow.. what a jerk. I'm glad that you didn't have to go too far legally into it with them. (Even though I know you would have won, its still a pita!) 


Amber


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## JDS (Nov 30, 2007)

Meysha said:


> Shall I post up a link to my shots and his shots? hehehehehe.



Please do..   Otherwise we'll all be left here thinking Nokia teamed up with Nikon on the new D3.  Think phonecamera rather than cameraphone. 

Sorry if that's a stupid joke..my mind is shot from my job this week.  That's my excuse anyway.


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## PrincessB (Nov 30, 2007)

Personally I'd respond with an email saying something along the lines of:
Thank you so much for the kind offer to spread the word about my photography business, however I maintain quite a bit of clients, and with each of them spreading the word to their friends about how happy they are with my work you can imagine thats a lot to keep up with. So while the offer to help me out is extreamly generous I am not certain that I could take an any more work at this time. Thank you very much anyway. Kindly, sign.

But then my dry wit tends to cause people to call me unflattering names so that may just be my personality type and no one elses!


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## BlackDog's (Nov 30, 2007)

Love that response!  Of course, I'd add that since his pictures turned out so well (using a cell phone) that maybe he want's to join in and take more photos himself (then he wouldn't need to steal).  Maybe he could pick up some extra money when the market is slow.  

Guy's a jerk....and idiot....


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## RKW3 (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm happy it worked out Meysha.


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## Meysha (Nov 30, 2007)

Ohhhh I love all those responses!! They're great. I wish I had the balls to write them back. All I did write back was this:

Dear mr so and so,
Thank you for removing the images. Your understanding in this matter is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Vicky


hehehehe see... no balls. But I figured I'd keep it purely professional and not get tied up in his petty games. Although that probably just aggrevated him more coz he didn't get a reaction. Child!



Ok Here's a screenshot of their photo. I figured if I'm going to be childish and show you all... I can at least black out their info.  hehehe. It's funny though, I do think I actually prefer the comp of his outside shot, but the quality of it is just so bad, and that awufl haze. Anyway.






And some of my shots. the other guys ad who paid for them isn't up still. :-(


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## RKW3 (Nov 30, 2007)

Hahaha your shots are definitely way better lol.


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## Jeff Canes (Dec 1, 2007)

Why are the lots so small? Those houses are on top each other. Bet you can hear the neighbor snoring at night.


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## Meysha (Dec 1, 2007)

Yep. That's a new suburb they've created south of brisbane called Springfield Lakes.. It's awful. It's so crushing when I go down there because all the houses are so close together and tiny. :-(  And yes... you can hear the neighbours. It's just developers milking the land for all it's worth.

And rent prices are ridiculous there!!! You have to pay the same there as we do in the middle of Paddington - the more upmarket, arty suburb right in the centre of the city. !!! It's ridiculous. We have a serious housing shortage. :-(


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## nossie (Dec 2, 2007)

Jeff Canes said:


> Why are the lots so small? Those houses are on top each other. Bet you can hear the neighbor snoring at night.


 


Meysha said:


> Yep. That's a new suburb they've created south of brisbane called Springfield Lakes.. It's awful. It's so crushing when I go down there because all the houses are so close together and tiny. :-( And yes... you can hear the neighbours. It's just developers milking the land for all it's worth.
> 
> And rent prices are ridiculous there!!! You have to pay the same there as we do in the middle of Paddington - the more upmarket, arty suburb right in the centre of the city. !!! It's ridiculous. We have a serious housing shortage. :-(


 
geeesuss you guys don't know when you have it good.  I live in terraced housing and it does get in on me sometimes but if you want to be near the city then that's how it's got to be unless you have a lot of spondulas and in Dublin that means 2 million+


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