# Not sure if I charge to low



## RaySky (Jul 27, 2012)

So I received an email... It was quite rude. This is the EMAIL: 
You make it so much more difficult for other photographers to make any money. I hope you are doing well although your pathetically low rates cut a lot of us other pro photographers out.  I spend big money on gear, hire a second photographer, and an assistant.etc and need to see the return. As far as printing rights goes that is industry standard. $5 to remove logos? Why even mention that? Seems very petty. I charge $200 in La Crosse area(when I work  in Hawaii $500) for the photos edited and on CD(s) with a DVD slideshow and sell that every time. It is not greedy. 34 years of experience in photography should be no different than paying an attorney $275/hr.
The results speak for themselves. It is worth the extra money.
Not trying to rantjust putting in my two cents.
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Troy[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]I don't charge much because I am new at this and the town I live in its hard to find jobs so not many people make money. I charge $40/per hour. I only have 4 years of experience so I am really trying hard to build up a clientele. Do you think I am charging "Pathetically Low"?[/FONT]


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## Trever1t (Jul 27, 2012)

The author has good points but I don't know if he was right to send you a note. Charge what you see as fair and let the buyer beware  $40/hr seems low but we haven't seen anything of your quality which could me worth less than that


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

tell whoever sent you that email to sit and spin. if his results are so friggen great with his 34 years experience he should have NO trouble getting work and you would be ZERO competition to him. ask him what he tells people that cant afford his $275 an hour? does he do it cheap or does he tell them to find someone else. If you are happy with what you are making, and your clients are happy with their product, than that's all that matters. if troy "needs" to see his return, maybe he should focus on his own business model more and less on other peoples. also, tell him your soooo sorry he spent big money on gear and cant get the work to pay for it. sarcastically of course.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 27, 2012)

If you can charge $40  an hour and your able to cover your costs and make money off of it then great. I'd say it's pretty rude of someone to send you an email and complain like that. You'd think that for the price diffrence you two would have completly diffrent customer base.  Someone who is fine paying $200-$500 isn't likely to choose someone for $40. I'd say just take the high road and ignore them. I do like that he says its okay to charge what he charges because he has 34 years experience. yet you shouldn't be able to charge what you want based on your experience. Kinda screams hipocrittical to me.


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## RaySky (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks Guys! 
You can check out my work HERE

I did send a reply yesterday. Here is what I said: In many businesses, less experienced workers charge less and serve a clientele that might not be able to afford 'industry ​ standard.' I am not pricing you out of the market, since most of my customers cannot afford normal sitting fees anyway. I'm sorry you feel like I am trying to cut out more experienced pros; that is not my goal. However, I would love to learn from your experience if you're willing. Please consider me next time you need an assistant in the La Crosse area.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

whats a 34 years experience big money photographer doing trolling Craigslist for work anyway?? seriously, like anyone on craigslist is going to pay his $275 an hour. 
I wonder if he sent that email to everyone listing on craigslist..he must have burned out his Ctrl, C, and V buttons doing that.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 27, 2012)

Very well written responce. though I personally wouldn't have asked to assist someone who had that type of attitude. Type of guy who sends out random emails like that is likely the type to say yeah come assist me, then treat you like dirt to try to run out of the business.


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## Overread (Jul 27, 2012)

I'd just hit "delete" and be done with the ranting/ravings of some random person online. 


As for the pricing approach, remember prices are not just plucked out of thin air. Sit down and make sure that you've fully worked out your cost of doing business as well as your needed income to support your standard of living. The combined amount is basically your break-even cost, the lowest amount you can afford to charge whilst being able to run your business and also feed and house yourself. 
Remember how much you charge per hour/session also has to factor in how many hours a week you work - ideally you want to work as many as you can, but without having to slave yourself to the bone (esp if that would just have you breaking even). Remember to factor in editing time, printing time, consultation time etc.. not just the hours needed for the shots themselves. 


There are a few online calculators which can help with balancing these numbers and your local council/government offices will also have departments which help independent business owners ensure that their companies are running healthily and legally. Take advantage of this help (quite a bit of it is free) and ensure that you've got a sane and proper pricing structure in place. 

Also don't fall into hte trap of charging low and then high - charge what you want to charge for your intended market. Otherwise what happens is that you build up a clientel of lower price customers; then when you raise your prices you suddenly lose that customer base and you've got to start all over again from the beginning - might as well get it right the first time.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> I'd just hit "delete" and be done with the ranting/ravings of some random person online.
> 
> 
> As for the pricing approach, remember prices are not just plucked out of thin air. Sit down and make sure that you've fully worked out your cost of doing business as well as your needed income to support your standard of living. The combined amount is basically your break-even cost, the lowest amount you can afford to charge whilst being able to run your business and also feed and house yourself.
> ...



As always, the Hatted Husky speaks the truth. Definitely pay attention to you own bottom line since you don't want to under price yourself out of any profit at all. And if you DO decide to raise your rates at some point, try doing it in small increments over a long period of time. People would be shocked if you suddenly doubled your prices. but a small increase here and there can easily be attributed to increased business costs.


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## Superfitz (Jul 27, 2012)

Your stuff looks good. As long as you aren't losing money your prices are fine. Charge what you want. Don't worry about what anyone else says. Tony probably is having a slow year and is blaming everyone except for him/herself.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Trever1t said:


> *Charge what you see as fair and let the buyer beware*



This pretty much covers it.. Caveat Emptor!


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## Big Mike (Jul 27, 2012)

Several years ago, I took a course about how to start up in wedding photography...and many of the lessons apply to all sorts of photography.

The number one lesson was that experience should not play a factor in your price.  I'll say that again... *experience should not play a factor in your price*.  
If you are good, then you should be charging as much as you can (read up on the law of diminishing returns).  

As for how much you should charge...that depends on your business model.  How much do you need to charge to cover you expenses and earn a profit?  Can you support your family, earn a living, pay your bills, cover your equipment, advertise, pay taxes, insurance and put food on the table with what you charge?  

As for the photographer who E-mailed you...he has a point that you are probably undercutting his price and probably running your business at a loss (once you figure in the things mentioned above)...and yes, that does hurt the industry as a whole.
On the other hand, good photographers should constantly be striving to improve and should find a market segment that is willing to pay for how good they are.  Most 'successful' photographers aren't threatened by $40/hr photographers because they want (market to) people who are willing to may much more.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> Several years ago, I took a course about how to start up in wedding photography...and many of the lessons apply to all sorts of photography.
> 
> The number one lesson was that experience should not play a factor in your price.  I'll say that again... *experience should not play a factor in your price*.
> If you are good, then you should be charging as much as you can (read up on the law of diminishing returns).
> ...



^^I agree with most of this...BUT...saying the OP is probably undercutting the expensive photographer is like saying Kia is undercutting Mercedes. Their target audiences shouldn't overlap at all.  But I love you mentioning experience not  playing a factor. experience does not necessarily equal quality, It just means you've been doing it longer, not better.


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## KmH (Jul 27, 2012)

RaySky said:


> *Not sure if I charge to low*


Do you shoot part-time, or full-time? Have a studio, or no studio?

Do you _*know*_ the Cost-Of-Doing-Business (CODB) and Cost-Of-Goods-Sold (COGS) for your photography business?

Is your photography business financially supported with income from other sources? What is your average sale per shoot?

Many self-employed retail photography business owners don't know if they are, or are not, making a net profit.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > Several years ago, I took a course about how to start up in wedding photography...and many of the lessons apply to all sorts of photography.
> ...



No.. the target audiences should not overlap.. at all! BUT.. when A sees a "Pro Photographer" charging B this much... A is going to wonder WHY this other "Pro Photographer" is charging them so much more. Some people really don't the difference between a bad photo and a good one. This can impact a pro... when he is charging more than others... even if he is worth it.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > Big Mike said:
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again, it goes back to buyer beware, and more importantly, clients doing their research, just like buying anything else. if you buy a Kia, but EXPECT a Mercedes, and you go crying about it...what kind of sympathy are really going to get? I don't hear anyone complaining about how Kia or Saturn need to raise their prices because Mercedes and BMW are losing business.


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## Big Mike (Jul 27, 2012)

[just to play the devil's advocate] :twisted:



> again, it goes back to buyer beware, and more importantly, clients doing their research, just like buying anything else. if you buy a Kia, but EXPECT a Mercedes, and you go crying about it...what kind of sympathy are really going to get? I don't hear anyone complaining about how Kia or Saturn need to raise their prices because Mercedes and BMW are losing business.


But at the same time, there aren't any companies (that I know of) who are selling new cars for say, $3000...and only doing that because they can afford to run a money loosing business.  If there was such a company, Kia and Saturn would surely be up in arms because it would be cutting into their bottom line, and they couldn't afford to match the lower prices without losing money.  

The only thing they could do, is wait for the (fictional) cheap car company to go out of business...because they won't be able to sustain themselves by charging only $3000 for a new car.  

But when it comes to photography, some people only do it part time (or their family has other income) so they essentially can afford to run their business at a loss for an indefinate period of time...which can (and does) affect the market as a whole.


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## sapper6fd (Jul 27, 2012)

I absolutly LOVE how your reply to his email spun the situation into a positive by asking him to take you under his wing.  Thats a very ballsy move but in a very good way.  Fantastic and well done! I seriously hope it works out for you and you end up geetting some sort of paid work with him.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> [just to play the devil's advocate] :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your assuming that doing cheap(er) photography part time is at a loss. I still dont quite understand how a cheap(er) craigslist photographer has any effect on a 34 year experienced  $4000 wedding photographer. what do you tell people that go to you and don't  have enough money to afford your rates? what do any of the pros do?
when someone says they really need their wedding photographed, but they ONLY have $800 and that's ALL their family and friends could scrape together? Do you do the wedding for $800? or do you send them on their way to find a photographer in their price range? If the "Pro" isnt willing to provide a service in the price range where some people are looking, then their business model is unaffected by those photographers willing to do it at that price, since their clients could not afford the expensive prices anyway.  Unless there is some business aspect I have missed.


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## RaySky (Jul 27, 2012)

My clients are all big family's who have kids that can't afford senior pics, weddings for couples like me and my fiance who live in a tiny efficiency. I love my clients they are very family oriented so they treat you like part of the family. I don't want money I would to be doing this for free because it is a passion but since lenses aren't free I have to save up.

The email send has yet to reply back to me. Oh well


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## RyanLilly (Jul 29, 2012)

Funny Saturn was given as a comparison, and fitting. General Motors closed Saturn along with several other brands because, they were operating their business at a HUGE loss, year after year.


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## pixmedic (Jul 29, 2012)

RyanLilly said:


> Funny Saturn was given as a comparison, and fitting. General Motors closed Saturn along with several other brands because, they were operating their business at a HUGE loss, year after year.



true. but Mercedes and BMW never complained that Saturn was taking business from them.  Saturn operated at a loss, and eventually took themselves out of the picture.  they were never a threat because they did not produce a product competitive with the mercedes or bmw buyer market. Pro photographers should look at it the same way, and whine about it less.


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## pixmedic (Jul 29, 2012)

RyanLilly said:


> Funny Saturn was given as a comparison, and fitting. General Motors closed Saturn along with several other brands because, they were operating their business at a HUGE loss, year after year.



BTW, i was totally agreeing with you :thumbup:


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## RyanLilly (Jul 29, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> RyanLilly said:
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> 
> > Funny Saturn was given as a comparison, and fitting. General Motors closed Saturn along with several other brands because, they were operating their business at a HUGE loss, year after year.
> ...



I agree. In fact operating in a higher price range often gets you better clients, who have realistic expectations, an have confidence if your skills. It is often the opposite in the lower end, and this is in no way directed at the OP, it just my observations in many businesses, that low price clients are used to working with under qualified people and can be a real pain in the @$$. Even if you give them the world, they often are still unsatisfied.

Also People who seek out higher priced photographers are used to paying a premium of something better, even if the difference is subtle. Especially with wedding may people want the best for their special day.
Examples: $20 a bottle Dewars, vs $100 single malt
              Fantastic Sams vs a real salon
              Mens warehouse vs designer suits 
The basic products are the same, and for a lot of people, including myself, the former is usually just fine(except the scotch, I'm more of a $70 single malt guy) But Many people are happy to pay a premium for something just a bit(or a whole lot) better. Photographers who fall into the latter category are not affected by the extremely low priced offerings. The cheap guys, like many GM lines put themselves out of business before even stepping on to the same playing field as the "professionals."  

Now I can see where where the mid range photographers can get limped together with the weekend warriors, and in that case, It time to step up your game to separate yourself from the pack. Markets change, so business models must also change, or just be left behind to complain about it on the internet.


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## pixmedic (Jul 29, 2012)

RyanLilly said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > RyanLilly said:
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im a single malt scotch guy myself. 
21 yr balvenie
18 yr glenfidditch
18 yr glendarach

though, sometimes I like a good Gin and Tonic..bombay sapphire or tangueray 10


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 30, 2012)

RyanLilly said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > RyanLilly said:
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So does this mean that photographers as a whole should only photograph those that have plenty of money? and if thats the case now all your craigslist photographers are now priced at the same rate as the company with 30 years of experience, that is bound to take some customers away if in fact the general public is clueless about quality of photography.

It's business, companies start and close all the time. it's about survival. and sending someone an email and whining about how much they charge to me is just pathetic.


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## skiboarder72 (Jul 31, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> RyanLilly said:
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> > pixmedic said:
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I completely agree. This is two different ends of the spectrum. People open up new photography studios every day, and if they can offer a better product at a better price then sure they will overtake some of these older studios that haven't really advanced their work. 

Back to the original question though. You really have to ask yourself what you want to make, what your time is worth, and what type of client is ideal for you. If you want to be on the lower scale of things that's great! I personally would rather make the same amount and have more free time. My goal this past year was to make the same amount off 20 weddings that I did last year off 25. Improve the quality, decrease the hours worked, and still take home the same amount.


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## pixmedic (Jul 31, 2012)

skiboarder72 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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> > RyanLilly said:
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that sure would be awesome. the difference is though, that YOU are working on ways to improve your business model, product quality, and efficiency, while SOME photographers are trolling people on craigslist  complaining about not making enough money.  Im sure we can ALL see which is the better way to go.  :mrgreen:


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm wondering because I havn't done any reasearch on the matter, but how long that quick snap shops in like wallmart have been pumping out family photos, wondering if that had the same impact on photographers as the new crop of craigslist photographers are. wether the same mentality and uproar happened.


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## skiboarder72 (Jul 31, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> I'm wondering because I havn't done any reasearch on the matter, but how long that quick snap shops in like wallmart have been pumping out family photos, wondering if that had the same impact on photographers as the new crop of craigslist photographers are. wether the same mentality and uproar happened.



I don't think so, because this type of stuff isn't even in the same league. Seriously would you be cross shopping walmart and a very successful/talented on-location portrait photographer?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 31, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> I'm wondering because I havn't done any reasearch on the matter, but how long that quick snap shops in like wallmart have been pumping out family photos, wondering if that had the same impact on photographers as the new crop of craigslist photographers are. wether the same mentality and uproar happened.




Depends.. which would you rather have? A Macdonalds hamburger, or a nicely prepared Filet Mignon?  Some people think MacDonalds is good... those who know better, would never go there.....


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## pixmedic (Jul 31, 2012)

skiboarder72 said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering because I havn't done any reasearch on the matter, but how long that quick snap shops in like wallmart have been pumping out family photos, wondering if that had the same impact on photographers as the new crop of craigslist photographers are. wether the same mentality and uproar happened.
> ...



^^^exactly! its the same way that craigslist photographers don't (shouldn't) have any effect on successful/talented photographers. Its just an excuse. If the pros cant show why their work is worth more money, then they shouldn't be complaining.  Photography isn't the only field that is competitive. I work for a private ambulance company in central florida and there are two other companies constantly trying to  get our facility contracts. and we are NOT the cheapest. but we DO provide top quality service consistently and the company is always working very hard to maintain that reputation, so the facility's keep us as their providers even though they could get it done cheaper from someone else.


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## RaySky (Aug 10, 2012)

I wanted to let everyone know I did up my prices... Since I am getting better! YAY! I love learning so thank you to everyone for helping me with this problem! Btw I have yet to receive a reply!


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

You won't get a reply. You answered him WELL and that was enough to take him off guard. 
Besides the bottom line is your clients are not his clients and his clients are not yours.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 10, 2012)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Depends.. which would you rather have? A Macdonalds hamburger, or a nicely prepared Filet Mignon?  Some people think MacDonalds is good... those who know better, would never go there.....


I agree. If I have 34 years experience my customer base should never be leaving me to go to someone with little to no experience.


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## MonicaBH (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm still waiting to hear how a $4K pro photog. would respond to someone who approached them with a $1K budget.

A friend of mine who is shooting pro now was telling me that he had to cut his price for an impending wedding by over half to undercut the bride's friend's mother, who would shoot the wedding at whatever bargain cost...


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## Steve5D (Aug 11, 2012)

You should post his e-mail address here so we can all e-mail him and tell him to leave you alone.

That'll shake him up...


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 11, 2012)

I have a friend of mine who has 40 years experience shooting, he does workshops now, thing is, he's really not a very good photographer.  In his case having all this experience doesn't translate into being great at shooting, what he is good at, selling workshops to amateurs who are happy to learn a little more. 

So you charge what you feel you need to, and don't worry about some other guy.  There may very well be another guy that thinks he should be charging more.  There will always be someone making more money, even if they don't have the photographic skills to always back it up.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 12, 2012)

MonicaBH said:


> I'm still waiting to hear how a $4K pro photog. would respond to someone who approached them with a $1K budget.
> 
> A friend of mine who is shooting pro now was telling me that he had to cut his price for an impending wedding by over half to undercut the bride's friend's mother, who would shoot the wedding at whatever bargain cost...




I'm not a 4k wedding photographer, but in that instance I would tell them there is no way I could compete with someone who is going to charge that low, that my costs are based on my quality of work and years of experience doing weddings and that I really wished them the best and hope that they are happy with whoever they choose to photo their wedding. I may point out that after the wedding is done and a few years past the wedding photos will be the only thing they have to remember their speacial event and that I hoped they have quality photos to remember their occasion of a lifetime.



Imagemaker did bring up a point that just because a photographer has years of experience doesn't make him great. And if that is the case it's no ones fault but his own for not taking better oppurtunities to learn and improve.


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## KmH (Aug 12, 2012)

MonicaBH said:


> I'm still waiting to hear how a $4K pro photog. would respond to someone who approached them with a $1K budget.
> 
> A friend of mine who is shooting pro now was telling me that he had to cut his price for an impending wedding by over half to undercut the bride's friend's mother, who would shoot the wedding at whatever bargain cost...


The smart way to do it is to cut coverage time and what is included, to the tune of $3000 worth.


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