# Critique or encouragement?



## markc (Mar 9, 2004)

I've seen a few posts where people ask for thoughts on their work. I tend to be the kind of person that will take another person's image and try different crops with it, play with curves in Photoshop, or whatever, just to see what pops up. When I've posted ideas (not here) after someone has asked for a critique, I've sometimes accidentally made them feel bad. They really didn't want a critique, they wanted encouragement. Before I posted anything of the like here, I was wondering what people though of this distinction. Below I've posted the way I approach it. Any thoughts would be appreciated (and yes, feel free to critique this ).

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Critique or encouragement? 

Both giving and receiving critiques on an image can be a tricky thing. How open is the person that is asking to really hearing your opinions? How much can you really stomach receiving when you ask? How much do you really want to know? 

While its always nice to hear good things about your work, if you are not comfortable with constructive criticism, you may not want to ask for a critique. The main goal of a critique is not to get affirmations that you did a good job, but to hear how others might do things differently. It is then up to you to decide if different equals better and how to apply this knowledge.

Art is all about choices, and hearing what another person would have choosen can help an artist grow, but only if they are in a place that they feel comfortable with hearing about choices that conflict with their own. Someone new to a field often just needs encouragement that they are on the right track. It's important to recognize this in ourselves and ask for the approriate feedback.

Its only an opinion. 

No matter what anyone says, remember that it is only their opinion. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to art. Even with the technical aspects of photography, there are always dissenting views to whatever is proposed. It is up to you to decide if what it said applies to your work. There are many choices to be made, and they can be rather daunting. Sometimes it's best to simply concentrate on a few. If you don't think what's being mentioned applies to you yet, feel free to ignore it and work on what does.

Remember your audience. 

When giving a critique of anothers work, it will usually be better received if you keep in mind where this person is in their skill-set. I've found that in giving my own critiques, suggesting small, incremental changes are seen as much more helpful than going on about high-level ideals or simply brushing the image off as a snapshot. Bringing up the rule-of-thirds or mentioning that it is usually best not to shoot into the sun (or whatever applies) usually goes a long way for new photographers, whereas a dissertation on the zone system would probably result in a puzzled look and frustration. 

There seems to be certain types of photos that everyone makes as they go through their learning curve. Its all part of the process. I think recognizing this is an important requirement for critiques, for both the giver and the receiver.


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## vonnagy (Mar 10, 2004)

very well said mark :thumbsup:

I guess alot of us here know each other quite well, so if someone says 'that pic is shiite - try doing it this way...'  we know they have the best of intentions, just because we are used to their style and I suppose a newbie might be a bit intimidated by that. 

For myself, its all about knowing the photographer. I would critique a newbie a heck of alot differently than a more experienced person.

I do however, think that frustration plays an important part of of the learning process. I used to a teacher, there are sometimes you help and other times 'its sink or swim'.  I figure if you give up photography because you are frustrated with it, then its probably not for you.  You learn alot through struggling to get something right. I think the best critiques will make you 'frustrated' enough to do something to improve your craft.


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

well said,

let me just say, i think its quite rude to download someone's photo and repost the revised version ... i would be highly offended if someone did this to my photo .. and since its copyrighted, its against the law   

now that i've gotten that off my chest  :roll:  ... im still learning photography and i need to move forward ... it wouldnt help me a lot to surround myself with people who are just starting out ... i need to surround myself with more experienced photographers to continue to learn and perfect my craft as an artist 

some people dont know what to look for in a critique ..
i dont mind sharing knowledge that i've acquired along the way .. but u cant stay in 6th grade forever (and i wont), its suffocating   ... people need new challenges ... and i need a challenge ... i dont mind giving advice, but im no teacher ... im always a student   .... I NEED TO BREATHE!!!


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## vonnagy (Mar 10, 2004)

> let me just say, i think its quite rude to download someone's photo and repost the revised version ... i would be highly offended if someone did this to my photo .. and since its copyrighted, its against the law



hrrm dew, i've done this several times, my intention was never to steal their work - just show to them something I see in there photo.  I would never get offended if someone took something of mine and reposted so show me how i can improve - this is a learning place (if they were saying it was there own thats a different story!)

Basically one can talk till your blue in the face of how you can improve a picture - but when you can see - it makes all the difference in the world.  Most photographer/painters are visual learners - talking about saturation/dodging/burning especially if you are beginning will not make sense unless you see an example - and its more powerful if you see it in your own work.  Would you be offended by this, or am I misunderstanding your point?

In realisation, I was wrong perhaps not asking first, but my heart was never to offend anyone or take away from their work. Mainly because I have learned alot from folks who revised my work who shared their vision to do something differently with the photo. But I should always ask first.


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## metroshane (Mar 10, 2004)

I agree that we are pretty good about encouraging.  And I think that if you post a pic in the gallery you should be clear on what you are looking for and the rest of us should be courteous in making sure we are giving good feedback.

I have a repoir with some of the folks and feel as if I can give and take harsh critisism as long as it's constructive.  Others I feel are just looking for a pat on the back and that's ok too.

As far as downloading a pic and changing it....I did that once and felt like an ass later.  I think the appopriate way to handle this situation is via private messaging.  Discuss it with the poster first.


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## graigdavis (Mar 10, 2004)

I know in my case when I critique Im not going to flower it up.  I am known for being extremely straight forward and sometimes it comes of harsh.  But I really only mean the best.

But if you are getting critiqued you have to realize that what the person is saying is their opinion.  The person is only giving another angle at how to take the picture again.  I have taken pictures that my result is exactly what I wanted.  Then someone will rip it appart and I realize thats just another way I could have taken it, sometimes it is better.

I know I love when you guys tear my work appart.  I have noticed that my work has only gotten better since I have been in this forum.  And I have you guys to thank!


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.



			
				vonnagy said:
			
		

> hrrm dew, i've done this several times, my intention was never to steal their work - just show to them something I see in there photo.  I would never get offended if someone took something of mine and reposted so show me how i can improve - this is a learning place (if they were saying it was there own thats a different story!)
> 
> Basically one can talk till your blue in the face of how you can improve a picture - but when you can see - it makes all the difference in the world.  Most photographer/painters are visual learners - talking about saturation/dodging/burning especially if you are beginning will not make sense unless you see an example - and its more powerful if you see it in your own work.  Would you be offended by this, or am I misunderstanding your point?



This has been my approach, also. There's no other good way of saying, "I'd crop here and here", as we aren't in the same room and can't just flip over a few handy photos to use as an easel to demonstrate. But I will definitely keep it in mind to ask someone first.


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## ksmattfish (Mar 10, 2004)

Excellent post markc.

Any work I post on the internet, where ever I post it, is up for critique.  I may not change a darn thing, but I'm always glad to hear other folks' opinions on my work.  I won't take it personal, although I may defend my choices if I feel that the person isn't understanding why I did something the way I did it.

I expect people to understand that constructive criticism is not personal, and heck, they asked for it.  They don't have to listen to me.  I'm just telling them how I'd do it, and that may not work for them.  

As far as this forum goes, I feel that anything posted in the Photo Gallery is open for critique, although I did just notice that the header says "ask for comments and feedback", so maybe it's for critique if asked?

If folks don't want their stuff open for critique it can be posted in the "Themes" section (from the header inside the Themes section - "this is NOT a critique forum. save that for the Photo Gallery please").

I'm with Dew on the whole re-edit issue (sorry, Vonn).  It is never appropriate to rework someone's stuff and repost it unless they specifically ask you to do it.  I wouldn't get mad about it, but I personally think it's annoying and rude.  I approach critique as I experienced it in school.  People talked; no one got up, took the work into the darkroom, and re- printed it in their style.

I'm sure folks have different reasons for replying to various photo posts.  I usually only reply with encouragement (great job, nice work, etc...) if the image really strikes me.  I will usually only critique an image where I feel the poster really wants a serious critique.  Most images I make no comment on because:

1) The image doesn't interest me.  There's not much point in me posting "your stuff bores me, get more exciting, shoot something else" 

2) It looks like a snapshot.  The whole thing needs to be re-done in a completely different manner; where do I start?  If the poster doesn't see this already, then there is no point in me tearing the entire image down.  Go to www.kodak.com and check out the tips section.  It's full of great info.

3) I feel that the image is a nice photo, with a few minor problems (IMHO), but I don't think the poster really wants me digging in and nit-picking every little thing.


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

Yeah, I can see how posting a rework could be grating. It really takes away from the "mine"-ness of the image, so to speak. I've had people do that with my own, and while I didn't get upset, I guess it did take away from it being my image if I stop to think about it. I'm guessing that people would be a lot less likely to follow the advice, since it would be like copying, even though it's your own work. I'm going to pretty much stop doing that now, unless I've talked with the person about it explicitly. Thanks for the insight!


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## zio (Mar 10, 2004)

i think its important to give both constructively.  i know personally, that as a budding amateur photographer, i'd like to hear the good and the bad of my pictures so that i can continue one thing and improve another.  now if my picture is absolutely terrible i'd like to know.  i'm not that far enough along in photography where i'd actually get upset if somebody said my photo sucked...


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## voodoocat (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm going to address the issue of reposting work.  Ksmattfish and Dew, I don't think anyone would get the itch to rework your photos and repost them.  The only reason I will ever do it is to display to the poster a different crop or if the color balance is off.  Technical aspects that can be explained much better by revising the image.  It's just another tool to help the person posting the photo get better.  Matt, you're right, someone in a class wouldn't reprint it, but we're not in a classroom.  

With that said, I pretty much stick to PMing the person the finished product.  I don't ask if I can edit it first.  If I see something and feel like a quick fix in Photoshop is available, I take it.  I don't do any cropping anymore either.


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## terri (Mar 10, 2004)

What first came to my mind when reading the initial post has already been said here - that it is one thing to suggest a different crop or angle of composition, and quite another to actually re-do anyone's image.  It IS just a critique, not photo 101-102.   

That said, I enjoy most of the critiques I've read here because on most occasions, the "critiquer"  makes it clear that the image itself is fundamentally interesting, but this-or-that might take it to the next level.  I agree with Dew that the more experienced photographers have the most to offer in this regard.   

And I also agree with Matt; if you just want to post an image and aren't seeking any feedback of any kind, we have the "themes" section for that.  

Good thread, MarkC.


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

there are a million ways to take a photo of subject matter ... i think no one can trully understand the intention of the artist (or photograher/hobbyist) ... if the photo is trully artistically and technically lacking .. then it must be mentioned .... if "we" throw in our personal choices than we're molding this individual to swallow our style and their not allowed to bloom ... ya know what im saying?

as far as downloading folks photos .. i think its disrespectful ... the person has everything "wrong" in your eyes ...  u take their "prized possession" and do it better than them (better in your eyes) ... u repost it ...  i think its insensative .. if they feel passionate about their photos as i do ... its like painting over a painter's art  :? 

i agree with most here ... sometimes i just dont bother critiqueing unless i see the photographer has a lot of potential and their ready to move forward to the next level ... i'm one of those that believe .. either u have it or u dont ... 

there are a lot of great photographers here, unfortunatly, there are not a lot here who are able to critique their work


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## voodoocat (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> as far as downloading folks photos .. i think its disrespectful ... the person has everything "wrong" in your eyes ...  u take their "prized possession" and do it better than them (better in your eyes) ... u repost it ...  i think its insensative .. if they feel passionate about their photos as i do ... its like painting over a painter's art  :?


Are you talking about cropping an image?  Cause I mentioned downloading an image for two purposes.  Say I download someones image that has a magenta color cast on it and fix the white balance and tell them how I achieved it.  There is nothing disrespectful about it.  It's not saying that everything is "wrong" in my eyes.  It says to them, this is a good image, with a small amount of tweaking it can be an excellent image.


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## G3 (Mar 10, 2004)

There's a simple solution to the rework/repost problem. Simply post a reply and ask the person if they would like for members to try PS remedies and post them BEFORE you do it. Then everyone will know from that point forward if it's OK.

As far as simply critiqueing photos, the way I look at that is if the person posts a photo in here, there are soliciting critique. As long as the critique isn't rude or offensive, they have no complaints. If they don't want their work critiqued, then they need ot post in in a Gallery forum. Critique is not always positive, nor is it always negative. It SHOULD always be constructive, though.


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> if the photo is trully artistically and technically lacking .. then it must be mentioned .... if "we" throw in our personal choices than we're molding this individual to swallow our style and their not allowed to bloom


But who determines what is artistically and technically lacking? Isn't that a personaly choice? A picture may not be in focus, but that can be an artistic choice, even if it isn't usually considered technically correct. Who really has the final word on what is "correct"? I personally see _everything_ as being a personal choice, and the more we are exposed to, the more choices we have at our disposal to make.

I don't see a critique as a way of showing someone how it should be done. There's no such thing. It's just a way of explaining how we ourselves would have done it. Sure, we can have an undue influence on someone, but I think that person should be free to mimic as a way of exploration. I think this happens a lot in all mediums. Eventually, they will start to find their own style as they explore more and more as they start getting comfortable with all the choices that need to be made.


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

voodoocat said:
			
		

> Dew said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. It's not like painting over a painter's art, because that's a destructive act. The original is now gone and "destroyed". This would be more akin to making a sketch of the artwork to show a different composition (or whatever). If a painting student makes a copy of the _Mona Lisa_, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo? I would say not. It a sign of respect that the image is worth the time and effort one puts into discussing it. It's just that the "discussion" is in a visual, not verbal, form.


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## doxx (Mar 10, 2004)

> If a painting student makes a copy of the Mona Lisa, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo?



that would be a physical, still self-made copy of a painting to learn 
or imitate the style. Which I think is a good approach. If you want
a picture similar to mine -take your camera.

back on topic:
The downside of the internet is that it's too easy to download a
picture and alter it. If a person would get to see the actual print,
they would need to critique verbally - and that's the right thing to 
do IMHO...


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

for the record, i will never give permission to "re-work" my photos ... ever   

revising and reposting is rude ... if u ask the photographer and pm them and they are ok with it .. fine ...


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## G3 (Mar 10, 2004)

doxx said:
			
		

> > If a painting student makes a copy of the Mona Lisa, but makes a few changes to see what that would look like, is that disrespecting Leonardo?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are some people, especially those just learning photography and Photoshop that actually appreciate someone downloading their photo, making adjustments and posting the results along with the steps used to achieve those results. However, not everyone does. The only way to know for sure is to ask.


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## Osmer_Toby (Mar 10, 2004)

personally, i look for hard critique of my work.  i sometimes worry that an image i have posted did not get all the "negative" (i think of this as "constructive") comments it could have because people fear offending me, as the poster.  this is not to say i am a masochist; i simply desire to become better, and the best way to do that, for me, is to hear the no-holds-barred truth.  when i first started posting pics, i may not have been so desirous of this kind of feedback, simply because i needed to feel more confidence in order to take more risk, something necessary for growth.  now i want my pics to be torn asunder, poked, prodded, sliced, diced, and pureed. (maybe i can borrow markc's avatar)
at any rate, the whole process of critique is an extremely valuable one.  giving criticism actually helps the person giving, as well as the person receiving- for to learn something thoroughly, you need to teach it to someone else.  too, i have found that reading the critique for photos other than my own has helped me tremendously.  understanding how someone else goes about evaluating an image gives valuable insight for me not only when i critique others- i find that concepts i have encountered and pondered in these fora actually percolate to my consiousness _while i am doing my own work._
i find this forum to be one of the best on the web- the mix of personalities is great, as is the level of expertise.  in fact, i find myself intimidated anew these days, simply because the level of talent, even from obvious beginners, tends to be extremely high here.   (is it just me,or is this rise in quality of pics posted noticeable to anyone else?)


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

i have not noticed a rise in quality of the photos here toby .. i find it to be exactly the opposite  :?  ... which makes me feel like its almost time for me to move on ... i think the technical info here is great ... so i stay 

i need to keep learning and growing and not hit a brick wall ... i find myself looking at websites of photographers to enrich and inspire me ... but im not finding it here in the "post your photos" section 

there are a handful of photographers here that i inquire with about some projects that im interested in (thanks y'all .. u know who u are) ...


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## Osmer_Toby (Mar 10, 2004)

> i have not noticed a rise in quality of the photos here toby .. i find it to be exactly the opposite



really?  hmmm.  i don't mean to say we don't still have the (how shall i put this delicately?) "beginner" posting here, cause some of the stuff is kinda weak.  however, i see alot of newbies posting stuff that blows my stuff away.  and there are definitely some extremely talented regulars posting here- you, your husband, vonmeister, shark, gdavis, drdan, voodoo, others that i don't mean to leave out but i'm not gonna list 'em all here.
on a side note, i belong to a couple other fora (shhhhhhh) that target a more advanced user overall- let me know via pm if you wanna check any of them out.


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## Osmer_Toby (Mar 10, 2004)

p.s. dew- how come you didn't respond to my tfp post? i _know_ you've worked with pro models before!  

p.p.s. i think this site would be the worse for your leaving- you have quite alot of valuable knowledge to share...


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

u forgot ksmattfish, metroshane, photobug and motcon  


dont get me wrong .. this is a great forum for beginners ... there is a lot to learn here  ... im not a pro yet (but i will be someday) ... but im not a beginner and i feel the need to be amongst fellow photographers that share a true passion for photography and always wanting to go to the next level ...

i also think just because a person is new to this forum is not exactly new to photography ...

i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough  

there are a handful of great photographers here ... i wonder what keeps them going  :?


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## graigdavis (Mar 10, 2004)

My old hockey coach always told us that you are only as good as the people you practice with.  Dew, I think that is what you are saying.  

There is also another side to it.  If all the more experienced and more tallented people didnt stick around to help the less tallented, the circle would never complete.  

This forum would die if all of the tallented people decided to leave.  It would be the blind leading the blind.


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

graigdavis said:
			
		

> My old hockey coach always told us that you are only as good as the people you practice with.  Dew, I think that is what you are saying.



that is exactly what im saying ... thanks for clarifying that   

i try to be helpful and use some of the expertise that i've acquired along the way .. i dont want u guys to think im selfish in any way ... but at the same time, i cant forget about me in the process ..

there are some talented beginners here (and i was a beginner before) ... and u'll notice sometimes i go out of my way to share knowledge with them because i trully beleive they have talent and i will continue to help those that are passionate about it..

but ur right, the blind cant lead the blind .. they'd both get hit by a truck   

but i still need to breathe .. i need to go to the promiseland and need the right vehicle that will take me there  ... its been a long time coming


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## vonnagy (Mar 10, 2004)

> i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough



I think thats great dew but you will be sorely missed should you decide to pack up yer bags and go. I am still learning, i've learned alot of amazing things from your posts. But at least i can check up on your website how ya doing (i promise not to download just look  ) 

 Sorry if I offended with reposts & revisions, like I said, it was never in my heart to rude or disrespectful, given what people say here i see that in a new light now.  Though someone may posted it somewhere here, kinda wish someone pm'd on it, what's obvious to some people - I usually need a swift kick in the ol' arse to see it for myself. :mrgreen: I have a bad tendency to act first and think later thats gotten me in trouble all my life!

I don't think i've every reposted your work Dew - because i am certain i would have heard a message from ya loud n clear!  but I do appreciate you bringing that up - it is an important issue that i obviously haven't given much thought to.


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## Chase (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> dont get me wrong .. this is a great forum for beginners ... there is a lot to learn here  ... im not a pro yet (but i will be someday) ... but im not a beginner and i feel the need to be amongst fellow photographers that share a true passion for photography and always wanting to go to the next level ...
> 
> i am on a mission to perfect and fine tune my skills ... i need to surround myself with people who share that vision ... not to create good photographs, but to create great photographs ... good is not good enough
> 
> there are a handful of great photographers here ... i wonder what keeps them going  :?



This is only my opinion and I could be wrong, but keep in mind that sometimes teachers can learn just as much their students. Helping others to enhance their skills can result in you digging deeper into your own skills and knowledge as well as potentially opening the door for other areas that you may not have explored.

I know that in the computer field, my experiences with teaching various levels of computer users had a major impact on my personal knowledge in the field. Helping people that knew less than me pushed me to continue expanding my skills and knowledge and often raised questions that I was humbled by. 

Just my 2 cents...

 &lt;---somehow I knew I would get a lot of use out of this little guy!


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## ksmattfish (Mar 10, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> oops: Sorry if I offended with reposts & revisions, like I said, it was never in my heart to rude or disrespectful, given what people say here i see that in a new light now.  Though someone may posted it somewhere here, kinda wish someone pm'd on it, what's obvious to some people - I usually need a swift kick in the ol' arse to see it for myself. :mrgreen: I have a bad tendency to act first and think later thats gotten me in trouble all my life!



It's okay, Vonn, you're such a nice guy I can't imagine anyone taking too much offense.  To me, "correcting" or editing someone's photo without the photographer asking them to is sort of like trespassing.  Does it really hurt anyone?  Probably not, but it's still not considered polite.  There are many photo boards that expressly prohibit it.

I can see where Dew is coming from, but at the same time, if everyone gets up and leaves when they think there is nothing more to learn, then how will this forum get any better?  Everything must start somewhere, and although I frequent other forums where I run into folks who are doing more of the kind of stuff I do (traditional BW darkroom), I find the attitude on this forum to be really positive, and I like that a lot.  I have to admit, I come here more to socialize about photography than to learn.  Although I do learn, especially about digital (thanks again, Doxx), and I think that there is a lot of learning potential in looking at "amateur" work.  Dew, if you need to check out other waters, then I encourage you to do so, never limit your learning, but please don't ever leave us completely.


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## voodoocat (Mar 10, 2004)

Chase said:
			
		

> Dew said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quite true Chase.  

_Learning is finding out what you already know. Doing is demonstrating that you know it. Teaching is reminding others that they know it just as well as you do. You are all learners, doers, teachers._ - Richard Bach


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

honestly, i have learned nothing here in the past few months ... everything that i have acquired as far as my skills is from the hubby and if he doesnt know it .. he will find the answers for me 

im with ksmattfish .. i like to socialize with others to talk about the thing i love .. photography 

a lot of times i like to get a second opinion about something, so i'll post it here to get a different perspective ... but that will not make me a better photographer ... i will be boxed in at an amateur level ... very few people here really knows how a photo can be made better .. because they simply dont know   

i've been researching what the big boys are doing for a few months now ... and the photos that they reflect are so different than what is presented here ... one day i will stand alongside the big boys and not be ashamed to show my work  ... im driven and my new projects reflect growth for me artistcally and technically .. but im serious about what im doing ....

i'll stick around for a minute.. and im sure no one here will bat an eye when im gone .. but in a few yrs .. be looking out for me in your next photography magazine or the like


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

I've also found that giving critiques and doing how-tos have been instrumental in helping me advance in my work. When I have to put into a coherent written or spoken statement something that I've been doing by gut feel, it forces me to take a closer look at what I'm actually doing. I usually end up discovering that I'm making some choices out of default. I might not change my mind in how I do them, but at least it becomes more of a conscious choice so that I can look for other places where similar choices might be made and I may not be acting consistantly. My focus has much improved, no pun intended.

When I explain ideas to someone else, on some level, I'm also explaining it to myself.


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## ksmattfish (Mar 10, 2004)

markc said:
			
		

> When I explain ideas to someone else, on some level, I'm also explaining it to myself.



Beautiful.

Heck, I feel like I'm learning a lot just in this thread.  You know, there are a million how-to books that can teach you all you need to know to take a picture.  It's the other stuff that no one writes books about that you learn in the conversations here.


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

im getting the impression that growth is a bad thing  :?  ... can u imagine a 20yr old in 6th grade?  :scratch: 

i think to discourage growth is a bad thing and beginner photographers need to get real and be honest where they stand on the totem pole ...

for example ... "we" make think their stuff is great .... they get out there in the real world and find out that that stuff is garbage   ...

like i said, i've seen the "big boys" stuff ... im not there yet .. but im not too far away ...

i think to mislead a photographer/hobbyist about their work is not doing them a favor in the long run ... they may have false pretenses


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> honestly, i have learned nothing here in the past few months ...
> 
> ... very few people here really knows how a photo can be made better .. because they simply dont know
> 
> i've been researching what the big boys are doing for a few months now ... and the photos that they reflect are so different than what is presented here ...



No offense intended Dew, but it sounds like you are placing the responsibility for growing as an artist on the community here. I can understand understand feeling frustrated. I feel that way with my local camera club. They seem more interested in competitions than the exchange of knowledge. But it seems like you are putting everyone down. 



			
				Dew said:
			
		

> im getting the impression that growth is a bad thing  :?  ... can u imagine a 20yr old in 6th grade?  :scratch:



I don't think anyone is discouraging growth. 



> i think to discourage growth is a bad thing and beginner photographers need to get real and be honest where they stand on the totem pole ...



I have to be blunt here. Screw the totem pole. I don't care where I "stand" and I don't plan on caring the future. That's great if you have ambitions that involve comparisons with someone else, but I don't think it's fair to apply that to all beginers. They should be the one making that choice.



> i think to mislead a photographer/hobbyist about their work is not doing them a favor in the long run ... they may have false pretenses


I think that pushing a load of expectations on them can discourage them from even trying. I'd rather encourage someone along, and let them deal with the rest of the art world at their own pace.


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## Dew (Mar 10, 2004)

you're right .. its no one's fault that i continue to stay .. its mine, but i will resolve this ...

i want to share the knowledge that i have ... but i also want to grow more .. there is no room for growth here for me ... im at a wall .... it is time for me to move on ...

thanks for your hospitality 

i will keep in touch with a few of you here ... see how you're progressing


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## markc (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> you're right .. its no one's fault that i continue to stay .. its mine, but i will resolve this ...
> 
> i want to share the knowledge that i have ... but i also want to grow more .. there is no room for growth here for me ... im at a wall .... it is time for me to move on ...
> 
> ...


I didn't mean that you should leave. If your time is limited and you think that you will get more of a return by leaving, I can understand that. What I was trying to say is that I don't think that staying here has to prevent growth. It's all about what you do with what you have. If you think you need to be elsewhere, I'm not going to argue with that. I just meant that placing the burden of growth on someone else, no matter who they are or what group, it's being a bit unfair.


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## photogoddess (Mar 10, 2004)

:shock: WOW! That got ugly fast! :shock: 

I am pretty new to this group and I am still learning about this forum and it's members. What I have learned so far is that there are many types of photographers here - from snap-shooters to professionals. In all truthfulness, I most likely fit in right near the middle of that spectum. 

While I have worked as a pro, I hesitate to apply the title "Professional Photographer" to myself. This is because I honestly feel that much of my prior work was lacking in that special something that sets it above the standard for "true" professionals. I try to look at all of my photos objectively. But, when you are really close to a shot, that is hard to do sometimes. Thankfully I can get some of that objectivity here. 

I looked at a couple of different sites and chose this one because it seemed the most friendly. Photosig just seemed a bit sterile to me.  I know that many people like to hear the nice stuff about their photos - who doesn't! When I post photos here, I like the fact that many of you are honest about what they like and don't like about the post. I have gotten some REALLY valuable feedback on this forum and I think we all have something valuable to add here. As long as photography continues to change, we ALL have something to learn. Do I aspire to be a better photographer? Always! I don't have the ability to work on it full time so maybe it's a slower progression than someone who lives and breathes photography. That doesn't mean that I am not serious about improving. I am sure that I am not alone in this thought.  :?: 

Dew, you have some great things to add to this forum and some of your posts have been extremely helpful. Please don't feel that by continuing to view and post on this forum that you are stranded in 6th grade. When you go on to the "Big Boys Club", maybe it will be nice to find some comfort from your friends here at this forum. Stick around, it would be nice for you to pass on some of that "insiders" information  and tips on to those of us that haven't reached that level. YET!


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## metroshane (Mar 10, 2004)

Wow, look what's happened here....where have i been?

I understand Dew's position but feel she's having a hard time articulating it in a non-offensive manner.  An online community is a wierd little thing and still a very new sociology.  Sometimes we get caught up and find ourselves checking the forum every few minutes to see if anyone has answered my question, laughed at my joke, told me how great my pic was, or mentioned my name at all. Strange and unhealthy.  

What has occured here is the same thing that has happened to every small town high school kid.  "I can't wait to get outta this lousy town".  We've become so much a family that we all eventually need to set out on our own.   We got to get out in the world and test our limits, set our own course.  So, I believe Dew isn't leaving because of anomosity, but rather to focus more on the activity of photography...not just the discussion.  I mean I for one admit I'd probably be twice as good if I dedicated the time I'm here to the actual art.  Think of it as a sojourn where we can all come home anytime.  I for one have learned a whole heckava lot and will continue to come on a regular basis...but some have you have noticed that I haven't posted much in the gallery lately.  Not b/c I don't want your opinion...just that I've destracted myself.  

I think it's a good idea for Dew to set out on her way...then I guarantee she'll come back with some great stories.


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## MDowdey (Mar 10, 2004)

im going to be the one to ask the question?


have i stepped into the twilight zone?

when did this forum have ANYTHING to do with the progress of anyone here? its just a meeting place, you know, common ground.

this is not school, and there is no effort made to shape photographers here. dew, i love you, and im sorry you feel that way...but the fact is, its not the forums that are making you feel this way, its your intense drive to be the best at what you do. with or without this forum, you would be feeling the same way. i believe this to be true. i will miss you and your wit.

md


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## photogoddess (Mar 10, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> when did this forum have ANYTHING to do with the progress of anyone here? its just a meeting place, you know, common ground.



While I agree that this is a great meeting place for photographers, I don't think that is all that this forum is about. I happen to think that this is also a fantastic place to get educated opinions and critiques of your work and about photography as a whole. As a photographer, if you are truly willing to hear the good, the bad and the ugly about your photos, you can't help but learn something and grow as an artist. 

Honestly, I originally had my mind set on joining another forum. After reading a few of their posts, I got a major case of cold feet. I realized that I needed to get some objective opinions from some educated, friendly photographers about my work before jumping into the deep end of the pool. I found that help here. In the short time that I have been a member of this forum, I have also learned a great deal. Whether you realize it or not, there are many things that we can learn from each other. We just have to be willing to hear the lessons.


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## voodoocat (Mar 10, 2004)

Think about where the word forum came from... 

It's essentially a public meeting place for open discussion...


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## Not Neve (Mar 10, 2004)

:shock:


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## Tammy (Mar 10, 2004)

When I decided to search for a photography forum, I knew from experience with a different genre what I was looking for - a place where experienced people and beginners worked together in order to improve their craft.  I wasn't looking for a social club, a place where "this is pretty" would be critique. I was looking for a where they why's of 'this is pretty' were discussed - honestly.  

Dew (hoping you aren't really gone) -  When I first came here, I saw your website and was very impressed with your work. You were the reason I kept looking around, and eventually, I decided to become a member. I've come to admire your knowledge and passion for photography, as well as many other members on this site; and as much as I'd love to be able to dedicate as much time and effort to learning more about the craft of photography as you and others have - the simple truth is - I can't... there simply isn't enough time in the day.  So, does this mean I shouldn't try to improve and become the best photographer I can be?.... I don't think so.  Let's face it - if I only did the things I was great at - I wouldn't be doing much.

To that end, I'm thrilled that the topic of critique is being discussed.  I've always been uncomfortable asking for critique as part of my post, because it seemed to me that posting in the Photo Gallery in and of itself indicated that critique would be welcome and is desired... to me, asking is like begging/nagging, and I don't like to beg. 

I always want critique.  I want to learn - and since my husband doesn't understand why I'd want to take a perfectly good color photo and turn it into black and white - I figure I need to outside the home to get any feedback. So I came here, where I'm still trying to figure things out - not only photographically speaking, but also socially speaking. 

Seems to me that most forums have their own personality and an underlying set of unwritten rules - here for example,  there have been many times when I've seen a photograph that in my opinion was more of a snapshot - but no one calls it a snapshot - so I wonder why not? Did the people who commented see something I didn't see or were they simply being nice? I know what I think - but I could be wrong and don't want to step on toes, and I don't feel as though I've paid enough dues to say 'I do't get it' - so I probably don't say anything _especially if the post is from one of the more established members_.

All that being said - if I post a snapshot - please feel free to let me know.  And if I do something right - I'd love to hear from you all about that as well.  

Thanks for this thread, for comments given, and photos shared.  Cheers.


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## ksmattfish (Mar 10, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> have i stepped into the twilight zone?


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## voodoocat (Mar 10, 2004)

Thanks for that picture right before bed Matt.


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## vonnagy (Mar 10, 2004)

OMG...  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao: 

you have reached enlightenment oh wise matt, i see you have fully developed your third eye!!!


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## karissa (Mar 10, 2004)

You know, I have heard people use the expression "A pimple making a good impression of a third eye" but actually growing a third eye, no THAT is impressive.


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## Mitica100 (Mar 10, 2004)

Dew said:
			
		

> im getting the impression that growth is a bad thing  :?  ... can u imagine a 20yr old in 6th grade?  :scratch:
> 
> i think to discourage growth is a bad thing and beginner photographers need to get real and be honest where they stand on the totem pole ...
> 
> ...



Dew, sorry you have come to this conclusion!  Voodoo is right, this is only a public place open for discussion(s).  All can learn a wee here and there from other posters' experiences, or nothing at all.  But what makes this forum great is the connectivity between people living in different corners of this world.  IMHO no school of photography can (or will) offer you this.  Sure, it's not the NY Institute of Photography, but one can still find invaluable pieces of information.  And a lot of common ground and friendship amongst all of us, here.

You will be sorely missed... :cry:  issed: 

And whatever you will do, I wish you the best luck!


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## vonnagy (Mar 10, 2004)

I say we all gang up on that new guy markc... he instigated all this mayhem! 

just kidding, markc! I think its great you've started a such and lively and thought provoking topic - bet ya had no idea what a can of worms you opened!  Seriously, you've brought up some great points there.


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## photogoddess (Mar 10, 2004)

:shock: Wow, looks like Dew really did leave. Pulled her avatar and web links.  :shock:


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## Mitica100 (Mar 10, 2004)

ksmattfish said:
			
		

> MDowdey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dew (Mar 11, 2004)

since i got 50 emails to my email box this morning    ... im going to make a statement

no one here did anything wrong ... just want to clear that up 

this was not a hasty decision (believe it or not) ... i have things going on around me that have influenced that decision .... i have goals that i need to acheive for myself ... those goals have been set in motion that is far beyond what most of you here aspire for yourself in the world of photography ... and that's great ... but getting a pat on the back for my photographs is not good enough for me ...

as u may know, i've been working on several projects in the past month ... i've done my most impressive work during this time (not in my online portfolio yet) .... i did this through research and the hubby of course ... but the fact is, i have not learned it from here  :?  ... i can use that time that i spent here to continue to move forward and be one of the best at what im doing .. not merely good at it  :?

i know some of you are new to photography or hobbyist ... i want to be a pro someday and successful in my own right ... and i will be within a yr through blood, sweat and tears ... just like graisdavis mentioned earlier .. "you're only as good as the people u practice with." ... u guys are not bad people ... i just dont see the hunger to move forward .... i have learned very little to nothing here in the past few months ... my new work reflect my own (and the hubby's) blood, sweat and tears (and at least 2 people from here that i will always keep in touch with)

i will eventually start a place (forum) for myself and like-minded individuals that we can feed off each other... but it will not be open to the public ..  it will be private

sorry to be blunt about what im saying but to be honest, im glad that i got this off my chest and now i can breathe ...if u look closely in some of my previous post, i've mentioned "I NEED TO BREATHE" ... this is what i meant    

this will be my last stop at the photoforum, i wont be checking my pm's or even see the reply to this post ... the people that need to reach me, they have my info     .... everyone else ... good-luck


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## karissa (Mar 11, 2004)

I understand Dew however I think compleatly leaving is wrong.  Dew could be one of the ones that gives us the good advice and to encoruage the people here to be better.  I'm not saying that Dew thinks he/she is to good for us but in a way if everyone did that how does anyone expect us to learn.  Thats just my 2 cents.


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## ksmattfish (Mar 11, 2004)

karissa said:
			
		

> I understand Dew however I think compleatly leaving is wrong.  Dew could be one of the ones that gives us the good advice and to encoruage the people here to be better.  I'm not saying that Dew thinks he/she is to good for us but in a way if everyone did that how does anyone expect us to learn.  Thats just my 2 cents.



folks come, and folks go

we've seen other announcements of no return, fortunately sometimes they do

other folks have vanished without a trace, without a word, where have they gone?


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## terri (Mar 11, 2004)

Strange thread this turned out to be.    :shock: 

I need coffee.


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## karissa (Mar 11, 2004)

terri said:
			
		

> Strange thread this turned out to be.    :shock:
> 
> I need coffee.



To much blood in the caffeine system?


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## markc (Mar 11, 2004)

vonnagy said:
			
		

> I say we all gang up on that new guy markc... he instigated all this mayhem!


Eek!  :shock: 



> just kidding, markc! I think its great you've started a such and lively and thought provoking topic - bet ya had no idea what a can of worms you opened!  Seriously, you've brought up some great points there.


It's all part of my plan for world domination!
er...
I mean "oops?"

Seriously, I harbor no ill feelings towards anyone. I was hoping to start up a debate, or at least an interesting conversation, but my intent was not to upset anyone. I'm no stranger to the oddities of on-line communication, having been involved since the days of dial-up BBS's and currently very active on another forum (9000+ posts since Jul'02[/braggard]). I've learned that there isn't much point in feeling responsible for other people's actions, so I'm not chagrined or anything.

We all have places we want to be in life, and it's up to ourselves to see us there. If Dew thinks her time is better spent investing it elsewhere, then more power to her (and I don't mean that in the snippy way that it's often used). Much of what we get involved with has a purpose, but it's often transitory. What was good for us then, isn't always good for us now. While there are certainly sucky aspects to her leaving, she should also be commended for being willing to re-evaluate her situation and making any changes needed to get her closer to her goal.

I don't agree with some of what she said in principal, and I haven't been here long enough to have an opinion on some of the specifics, but she's the one living her life, not any of us. I really do wish her success as she defines it. It's not my brand of success, but it's not my opinion that matters in her life, hers does.

Communities are always changing and shifting. Yup, people come, people go. It's often a loss when someone who has contributed a lot decides it's time to move on, but that doesn't have to reflect poorly on the community. We all are looking for different things and have different reasons for being where we choose to be. I think it's unreasonable to think that one person's reasoning applies to everyone else. As long as you still get something out of what you are doing, that's the important thing. For myself, I've found that to be more a function of who I am, rather than where I am at the moment, but where I am can make it harder or easier.


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## karissa (Mar 11, 2004)

A teacher once told me that one door opens another one closes and when one person leaves a community or organization there is always some one coming up in the ranks to take their place.  I joined just in time to see Dew leave and I by no means want to say that I will take her place.  I can't.  It sounds like Dew has left her mark here on this forum and that it is a loss to all of us to see her leave however, there are other people that are talented on this forum and her shoes will be filled.  Her legacy however, can not be replaced.  Thank you markc for a very thought provoking post.


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## TwistMyArm (Mar 11, 2004)

If anyone believes that they can move forward artistically by talking to someone else about their work then they are greatly mistaken. People can share information and gain input that will further their work technically, but if you're looking to improve your work artistically then that responsibility is entirely on you. 

Dew, no offense, but you place far too much of the responsibly for you to grow on others.  That's your own responsibility and you will never grow as a photographer or an artist if youre looking for someone to show you how (to grow). 

What is the "Big Boys" club exactly? Just because someone is a professional photographer doesn't mean that there photos are any better then an amateurs. Sure they make money (and not necessarily good money), but are their photos any better then mine? There's more money in commercial photos then there is in artistic vision. I'd rather see artistic vision.

Its important to explore. Keep in mind explorers search out uncharted territory. They dont ask others whats nice and where they should visit; that would be tourist.


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## terri (Mar 11, 2004)

> It's often a loss when someone who has contributed a lot decides it's time to move on, but that doesn't have to reflect poorly on the community.



MarkC: You're quite right.   I've stayed out of most of this and eventually this thread will die on its own when everyone who knows Dew sees that she has pulled her profile, website link, etc and has left.   

I don't think this particular community is going to suffer without Dew's input, though I will miss her and her humor.   But a few of her comments directed at this forum were borderline offensive, and I am still puzzled over her outburst of yesterday.   But she had it, she did it, and she's off to what she perceives as greener pastures with better information for her goals.   So, I wish her well.   

Welcome to the forums, if I haven't personally said that to you yet.      I found your comments honest, if blunt, and I appreciated them very much.   

Ok.  I'm done now.


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## graigdavis (Mar 11, 2004)

terri said:
			
		

> But a few of her comments directed at this forum were borderline offensive, and I am still puzzled over her outburst of yesterday.



I was wondering if anyone else thought that too.   :?


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## voodoocat (Mar 11, 2004)

graigdavis said:
			
		

> terri said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if anyone did NOT have that feeling.


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## MDowdey (Mar 11, 2004)

im insulted and offended.

I hope doxx sees this, and i hope dew sees this.


"i am better than all of you" is not an acceptable character trait.


md


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## ksmattfish (Mar 11, 2004)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> "i am better than all of you" is not an acceptable character trait.



But it is a trait that I often encounter amongst artist types, along with passionate emotions.  I wouldn't take anything personal.


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## terri (Mar 11, 2004)

> MDowdey wrote:
> "i am better than all of you" is not an acceptable character trait.
> 
> 
> But it is a trait that I often encounter amongst artist types, along with passionate emotions.



But it can be perceived as an elitist one, Matt, and I think that's what has set everyone back a bit on this one.   Just the element of surprise.   For those here who have been around since the forum started, I would think it's hard not to take a *bit* personally.   But it will pass, of course.   We all wish Dew well.


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## graigdavis (Mar 11, 2004)

ksmattfish said:
			
		

> MDowdey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We just have to remember that we are below her on the totem pole.  Maybe some day we can all be like her.  I know I strive to get that goal every day.  Untill then, we can all gather in this uneducated forum.  :roll:


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## MDowdey (Mar 11, 2004)

graigdavis said:
			
		

> ksmattfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



           

right on brutha!!
md


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## Not Neve (Mar 11, 2004)

I say it's time for a group hug for those of us sticking around!


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## photogoddess (Mar 11, 2004)

Personally, I don't feel like I am "beneath anyone on the totem pole" (or above anyone either). I also don't feel that this is an uneducated forum but I am all for the group hug. So... consider yourselves hugged!

:love:  :smileys:  :love:


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## graigdavis (Mar 11, 2004)

everyone!!!....HIGH FIVE!!!    

wow, Im a dork. 8)


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## MDowdey (Mar 11, 2004)

graigdavis said:
			
		

> everyone!!!....HIGH FIVE!!!
> 
> wow, Im a dork. 8)



dude, we are all dorks!!


rock on graigd!!

md


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## manda (Mar 12, 2004)

I go away for 4 days and look at what goes on!
I always miss the drama.

This is a forum and a bloody good one. We've got professionals, amateurs, in betweeners and straight out lovers of photography here. I don't think this place was ever advertised as the forum to learn and grow with your art. Its a place to talk about photography with fellow photography lovers.

The reason this place IS such a happy, fun and welcoming place is because its made up of people without egos. If you want that, go to photosig and other elitist forums. I came here and stayed because people were friendly, liked having a joke and also seemed to like photography as much as I do. 
Not being a professional or anything close to it, I stayed also because as a side, I thought I would learn a thing or two from people here as there are so many knowledgable and talented ones who not only are willing to help but seem to enjoy doing so. 
I never found that at other forums.

I can understand that Dew wants to stretch herself, Im not sure what that has to do with us as a forum, but I do understand her need to do that. 
However...
When nukie, luckydog, James M and I met up a couple weeks ago, lucky and i were talking about Dew.
I dont in fact remember talking about her photography. We talked about her fabulous laugh and wacky sense of humour. 
Thats why I come here. 
The people.
The people....oh and they also happen to like photography too, so thats an added bonus. 

I'm thankful we do have professionals here that ARE so willing to share their knowledge. 
I'm thankful that there are beginners here who are so willing to share their love and are game enough to ask for help.

You better all not be having a group hug without me!!!!

TPF Forever


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## drlynn (Mar 12, 2004)

manda said:
			
		

> I go away for 4 days and look at what goes on!
> I always miss the drama.



I was just thinking the same thing!  I can't take a couple of weeks vacation without everyone getting in a brawl!!   

Oh well, I've been off polishing my photoshopping and getting acclimated to working 2nd shift, but I'm slowly finding more time to come around.
I for one miss this place when I'm gone, and can't wait to get back.


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## havoc (Mar 13, 2004)

I just caught this thread. Wow what drama the Photoforum has produced...
I understand the need to grow, but at the verbal expense of others is unacceptable. Dew has her photo thing, as we all do, she thinking she is better then anyone else though, thats wrong. No matter how she tries to justify it, she is leaving because she thinks we are shitty photographers. And she has no place in her life for us.
Fine good riddens i say. I love all the work i see here, some i feel is better then others, but i love it all equally because it is one person exploring their wold, trying to capture life in their own way. So what if "technically" one person is better then others. Help or don't help i don't mind, but to judge us is unacceptable. 
For the record I thought highly of Dew, i thought her work was good, but not  techinically or artistically superior to mine or many others on this forum. I am not a huge fan of street photography but i still find it interesting. I personally am not sure now it fits into the greater picture that is art, but it does. 
The elitist attitude that dew showed in her posts was unexpected but not shocking to me, in another post recently about tripods she started showing some attitude that was undeserved. I thought i would mention it, but i figured what the hell, maybe its a bad day, we are all entitled to it. To put it bluntly she just told us that are photography was ****, and that hers was better then ours. If that is what she thinks (and that is what she thinks)  then we are better off without her. To want to be the best is admirable, and i would wish her well, but to tell us off before moving on, to insult us as a group is unnacceptable. So i give her the same courtesy" she gave us. I think your work is marginable, but promising, but as for becoming part of the elite, i don't think you will.... Because technical skilled will only get you so far, your attitude and people skills are what makes you great.



BTW I think i am better then all of you and i am leaving  Just kidding


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## drlynn (Mar 13, 2004)

Stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel, Havoc!


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## havoc (Mar 14, 2004)

Only the truth passes thru these lips brotha!


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## crystalview (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm fairly quiet on this forum, but check it out every now and then...My opinion, "Dew"  is a drama queen and completely full of herself.  I mean come on.....a forum is for learning and to have fun.  For some reason she thinks she has graduated to stardom and become the expert photographer!  I think its hilarious!  

Complete narcissist!  Those posts made me wanna throw-up; the way she was downplaying people and trying to make sure that she tells everyone how good she "thinks" she is.  

Whatever...I actually am glad to see her go.  Now I don't have to read about what "my hubby thinks"  all the time.  She lives vicariously through this Doxx guy, her husband.  No disrespect towards him.  

Thats it...have a good one....I'm gonna go tell all my co-workers how much better I am than them...That should go over well!  lol


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## markc (Mar 16, 2004)

Hey everyone, I'm not sure how things work here as far as staying on the topic of the original post and all (I know I stray enough in others), but if we could stick to the critique discussion in this thread I'd appreciate it. I think joking comments as asides are cool, but Dew is gone and what's done is done. There's no need to crap on her now. If someone wants to start a Dew bashing thread, then that's between them and the mods/admins. I totally understand the anger and frustration of not being able to defend yourself (I was a new person and _I_ felt insulted), but I'd really appreciate it if it didn't happen here in this thread.

Thanks.


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## voodoocat (Mar 16, 2004)

I second that notion.  I think the forum has moved on.  If this thread continues to be a Dew bash, I think we will have to lock this thread.

Thanks.


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## Osmer_Toby (Mar 16, 2004)

> Hey everyone, I'm not sure how things work here as far as staying on the topic of the original post and all (I know I stray enough in others), but if we could stick to the critique discussion in this thread I'd appreciate it. I think joking comments as asides are cool, but Dew is gone and what's done is done. There's no need to crap on her now. If someone wants to start a Dew bashing thread, then that's between them and the mods/admins. I totally understand the anger and frustration of not being able to defend yourself (I was a new person and I felt insulted), but I'd really appreciate it if it didn't happen here in this thread.



heheh.  you're a good man, markc.  i think you are a true asset to this website, and i'm glad you're  part of it.
rock on, dude!


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## havoc (Mar 17, 2004)

I think there were alot of "late comers" to this thread, like myself. When reading those comments all at once, its like a blow by blow of insults towards the members of the forum. I think everyone that knows Dew has seen it and has commented on it, so yeah lets get back to the topic if this thread is to continue. But i think everyone thats been here has the right to make 1 comment at least, even if they come in late. I have one last thing i will say on this, here is a quote from a thread in the darkroom section LOL :roll:  
Quote:
Dew
Itchy Posting Finger!
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1698
 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:16 pm    Post subject:    

let me rephrase that, i have never worked in a darkroom before and dont have any experience  *remember, im new to film* 

Endquote.  :?  :?  :roll:  :roll: 

Anyways back to the the thread, Marc, I have been reading your comments in the forum and they are insightful, educating, and welcome on this forum. Welcome to the best "*Community*" photo forum around. I think your a great guy and look forward to reading your future posts.  [/quote]


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