# Which camera should I go with?



## Kramertron2000 (Jul 30, 2018)

Hey everyone! First post from a complete noob, so be nice 

I want to get a nice old fully mechanical film SLR as my first "real" camera. I plan on reading up on how to take good pictures and getting a friend who is an artist and photographer to help me out a bit to get started, but ultimately the reason I want a nice camera is mainly for taking field pictures for when I go back to uni to do my PhD (Im a biochemist and botanist, and would like my thesis to be more botany related, so will hopefully be taking pictures of plants and habitats - along with other nice nature shots for my own enjoyment). I will have my phone and probably just my cheap digital point and shoot for backup pictures which will do, but ideally Id like to have some really nice quality pictures in my thesis too.

I want mechanical and film based mainly for the fact they are a bit more rugged than expensive digital cameras (dust and humidity dont go well with anything digital), the inital outlay is less, so if I lose interest or cant get good pictures its not as big a loss, and I like the idea of having to actually think about the shot rather than relying on auto everything (which even my point and shoot can do), and it may also encourage attention to detail and thorough note-taking also not needing batteries to be able to take pictures is a plus in the field. Plus there is the nostalgia factor of being a kid in the 90s when most people still used film and the unique softness you can only get with film.

Anyway, to the question; I have been looking at Pentax Spotamtic Fs on ebay, which I can get a body in apparently good working order (usually without a working light meter, but there is an app for that) for about $50aus then a lens for another $150ish, or there is a guy on a local facebook page selling a Ricoh xr-1s (with a whole bunch of lenses) who is going to check it works then work out something for me. Im not really interested in having a bunch of different lenses at the moment because I know the types of pictures I want to take and also dont particularly want to spend a huge amount yet.

What do the more experienced here suggest? I cant seem to find much info on the Ricoh (also sold as the Sears ks1000), which leads me to believe parts may be harder to find if something breaks etc. whereas the spotmatic was mass produced and there is lots of information about it.

Thanks guys


----------



## compur (Jul 30, 2018)

The Ricoh XR-1 is a mechanically based camera and probably an OK choice (if working well) but I would avoid any of their later models with electronic shutters as they are often found in inoperable condition these days. It uses K-mount lenses (as do the K-series Pentax cameras) which are plentiful.

The Spotmatic F is also OK if working well but a Pentax K-series (like the K1000) would be younger and would probably have more years left in it. The Pentax K-1000 is basically a Spotmatic F with the later K type lens mount.

All Spotmatic cameras use M42 screw mount lenses which are also plentiful. The Spotmatic F has an added feature of open aperture metering but only when special M42 lenses are used. These are called Super Multi Coated (SMC) Takumar lenses made by Pentax. Regular M42 lenses can also be used but only with stop-down metering as with the earlier Spotmatics.


----------



## SoulfulRecover (Jul 30, 2018)

if you can afford it, Nikon FM2. Itll work forever


----------



## webestang64 (Jul 30, 2018)

I would start with a good old Pentax K1000. I got mine in 1980 and have taken 1000's of rolls through it and it still performs perfectly.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Jul 30, 2018)

Thanks for the responses. The Nikon is probably out of my price range, but looks nice.

Going by the responses it sounds like the Ricoh will be a good choice because its newer than a Spotmatic and is very similar to a k1000. It just depends on how much the guy wants for it. What would be a reasonable price (including a couple of Tamron lenses) to pay for one? There are a couple of K1000s on ebay too I could probably spring for if he wants too much for the Ricoh.

Is there any reason I _shouldnt _go for the Ricoh?


----------



## Dave442 (Jul 30, 2018)

I took a lot of images like you are looking at doing using film when that was the only option. Now I shoot digital and have found it is much better suited to field work in extreme conditions than film. You might also find that a lot of decent used digital bodies are cheaper than that used Nikon FM2 film body.

That Ricoh XR-1s actually looks very similar to the Minolta SRT-101 that I used in the 70's. Later I had the Pentax ME2 and liked the small size and the Pentax lenses. Before the Minolta I used a rangefinder and hand-held light meter, not something I would want to go back to on a daily basis although it was probably the best learning experience at the time. 

So no reason to not give film a try now, but I would not do it based on being cheaper or more rugged or better image quality.


----------



## compur (Jul 30, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> What would be a reasonable price (including a couple of Tamron lenses) to pay for one?



Depends on which Tamron lenses. Tamron zooms aren't worth much dollar-wise though they are generally of high quality. Tamron primes are worth more and are quite good, generally.



> Is there any reason I _shouldnt _go for the Ricoh?


Generally speaking, re-sale value would be less than, say, a Pentax. But, we're not talking about a lot of money in any case.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 30, 2018)

Nikon FM would be my suggestion, since it has the flip-up option on the Ai follower, and so could use ALL Nikkor lenses, and all third-party F-mount lenses made since 1959. The Nikon will be 15 or so years newer than many thread-mount Pentax models. The* F-mount is also still "alive",* not "dead", like Minolta manual focus, or Canon manual focus, which are dead mounts, with nothing being manufactured using them, and it has been so for many years.

The FM-2 recommended above is a fine camera as well, but does NOT offer the AI-follower flip-up option, so it must have Ai or Ai-S type lenses, which are newer. Still...that mount, Ai-S, dates to roughly 1977-80, that era on lenses, and is VERY common. There are however 20-plus years' worth of pre-Ai lenses around, many of which are very low cost.

But _seriously_...as dave442 is trying to suggest...look for a good,low-cost digital SLR body. Even a Nikon D40 or D60 at $99, would be a heck of a picture-maker, and can use pre-Ai lenses, Ai and Ai-S lenses, as well as newer AF,AF-D,and AF-S lenses, with varying degrees of automation, and the best part is...super low-cost shooting on digital, as well as VERY high-quality images.

Your initial statements about ruggedness and image quality on film vs digital are absolutely flawed, especially for a beginner. You want GOOD pictures? With film, and you've never had a good camera? You're barking up the wrong tree. The learning curve is steep with film--and the worst part is that _quality_ prints from 35mm film negatives are difficult to source in many instances, and are expensive, and the quality of the photofinishing these days SUCKS at many labs, or so-called labs. We're 18 years into the twenty-first century, and you're thinking that a 50-year-old, obsolescent film camera (Pentax Spotmatic) is more rugged than a 5-year-old d-slr? Wrong.

Film's learning curve is steep, and difficult for most novices. You'll make many mistakes, and it will be two weeks before you see the mistakes in-hand...with a d-slr, you'll see the mistakes in 3 to 5 seconds. Film is best for people who truly know and understand much about photography.

Anyway....Nikon FM, Nikon FM-2, Nikon FE-2,Nikon F100,Nikon N90s, those would be the best  *film cameras*, IMHO.


----------



## Gary A. (Jul 30, 2018)

Firstly, you can get digital dSLR’s which are weather resistant. These cameras laugh at dust and humidity. A Nikon FM, depending on shape, goes between $100 & $300.  If that is pushing your budget than a weather resistant digital dSLR is beyond your budget.

Secondly, unlike digital cameras, with film cameras, the camera(s) really add little in respect to image quality.  Lens quality and film quality are significantly more important to the final image than the camera. The camera is merely a box.  

Thirdly, for film, Nikon lenses were some of the highest quality lenses in terms of build and image quality for film. A Nikon camera, F, FTn, F2, F3 were built like tanks.

Fourthly, Digital photography is much easier, more forgiving and in the long run less expensive than film.  Average, everyday, run-of the-mill, snapshot taking photography is easy.  Good photography is hard.  Great photography is a gift reserved for a few with passion and dedication to shooting thousands and thousands of images. 

If photography was an integral element of my doctoral presentation ... I wouldn’t treat it lightly.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Jul 30, 2018)

Im going to agree with @Derrel and put another vote in for the nikon FE and an F3 if you can find a local one for cheap. The FE with the 1.8 50mm lens can be had for cheap (in your budget) and offers more than enough in the way of features and reliability. I bought one for my girlfriend when she wanted to try shooting film with me and she has been quite happy with it.  

I will also reiterate with what everyone is saying here. In todays day and age film adds little to the end result as most things can be mimicked digitally. Like others have stated digital cameras take a lot of abuse, more than film cameras in some cases. Anyway, I dove into film heavily about 2 years ago and ill offer a few thoughts (Im young enough to have been a kid when digital came around so film has a novelty more than a nostalgia for me). You can buy priceless film cameras for really cheap due to how many are flooding the market and the fact that the demand (even though its on the rise) is still fairly low which makes shooting film somewhat attractive for many. Film will not take a better picture, you will botch a lot more exposures, ruin rolls, and flat out burn through money sometimes coming out the other side with useable images numbering in the single digits. For me what film offers is a fun process that I can really be a physical part of end to end. Not only do I shoot but I process and print my own film at home which, if you are going to bother with film in the first place is a key reason to do it. Shooting and having a local lab scan it is a very time consuming way to end up with a digital image at the end of the day. If you are going to take the time to shoot, hand process, and then print in the darkroom thats when you will really learn stuff. Thats when you are really getting involved and in my experience creating a different end product than digital can offer. 

Before you think "man that sounds expensive", I got all my dark room stuff from a local lab that was quite literally throwing it away. You can find quite a bit of processing equipment for free due to the fact most don't even want to deal with it as long as you are willing to hunt around a bit for it. They even tried to give me a full on E-6 machine that "worked when put away".


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Jul 31, 2018)

Awesome responses guys, and yeah I guess you are right. I shouldnt count on a film camera producing great (or even usable results at least at first), and not really anything better than modern digital. I think for serious pictures Ill most likely stick with a point and shoot (really all I _need _is adequate pictures, with _good_ or professional being a bonus). Id still like to get started with film and mess around with digital to work out the actual skills. And developing and processing myself is also something Im interested in, having a chemistry background, so there is also that element.

There are also plenty of cheap second hand dslrs around too, so if i really need better pictures I can spring for one of those too.

As for the cameras Im looking at, turns out the Ricoh is a Xr10, so one of the later ones with the electronic shutter. He wants $150au including a lens (the only details he gave me at this point is its a 35-70 zoom). Does that sound reasonable? Someone mentioned earlier the ones with the electronic shutters arent all that good, and I was kind of liking the idea of fully mechanical.

Thanks again for the honest responses


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Jul 31, 2018)

Oh and he just sent me a picture - it looks to be in reasonable condition, and the lens fitted says 1:3.4-4.5 35-70mm macro Ricoh Japan.


----------



## weepete (Jul 31, 2018)

While I wouldn't discourage an interest in film photography I'd recommend you don't dismiss digital as it really does offer several advantages over film photography.

Particularly with macro photography and flowers focus stacking is great technique to make use of in order get around the thin depth of field limitations. Learning to read a histogram really helps with getting the exposure nailed and live view can be great for really getting the focus down for static subjects and used as a compositional tool to help visualise the 2 dimentional composition. There's also publishing, where if you were wanting to get film photos in to your thesis you'll probably need to get them scanned in to a computer and converted to jpeg format (and that in itself can cause issues and additional expense).


Rest assured that digital photograhy does not need to be all automatic, you'll be able to use a DSLR or mirroless camera just like you would use a film SLR if you wish (just turn off the LCD screen). Most decent digital cameras offer the same Av, Tv and manual modes of film cameras. So it's exactly the same skill set that you'll need for both types of photography.

You'll soon find out that settings and the tech behind them are only a minor part in what produces the 'pro' level of photos, what really sets them apart is composition, lighting and content.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Jul 31, 2018)

Thanks weepete

I think what Ill do is still get an old film camera, but start taking some pictures with the point and shoot and my phone's camera, and maybe post some on here to get an idea of where I need to improve and what Im doing right. Ill start doing some reading and maybe go out with my friend so she can give me some tips, and also keep my eyes peeled for some reasonably priced good quality used digital cameras to also learn with.

Another thing I can do once Im back at uni (if I even end up doing something where good pictures will be of benefit - I still haven't even decided on a topic yet) as part of the new "professional development" aspect of the program is take a photography subject (although more likely Ill be doing something boring like statistics for that). I will also have access to dark rooms and maybe even cheap chemicals for developing my film when I get to that point.

Back on the subject of cameras, I think I may give the Ricoh a miss and go for something fully mechanical. Batteries suck, and I kind of like the idea of not being entirely dependent on them (even though in reality without batteries Id still probably need a light meter app on my phone, and any shots I do take will most likely end up being rendered to a digital medium anyway).


----------



## SoulfulRecover (Jul 31, 2018)

Derrel said:


> The FM-2 recommended above is a fine camera as well, but does NOT offer the AI-follower flip-up option, so it must have Ai or Ai-S type lenses, which are newer. Still...that mount, Ai-S, dates to roughly 1977-80, that era on lenses, and is VERY common. There are however 20-plus years' worth of pre-Ai lenses around, many of which are very low cost.



I use D lenses on my FM2 and can use my G as well. Granted the G will only shoot wide open as I don't have the ability to change the aperture manually from the outside. Of course I may be miss-understanding what you are referring to


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Jul 31, 2018)

Generally speaking there is little practical difference between late all mechanical cameras and early electric shutter cameras. The big difference is that the introduction of electric shutters allowed for what is affectively Aperture Priority mode originally called "Auto". Most of the nikons people have listed here have electric shutters (including the FE and F3 I listed). These cameras offer full manually operation and include a decent built in meter as well as an "Auto" Mode.

In terms of reliability that depends how you look at it, I own a few of each and in practice a good example of either is a good camera. On electric cameras you tend to see corrosion, element degradation in the meter elements, burnt out LCD's and the such when it comes to what breaks. On the all mechanical devices you see timing drift, gummed oil, shredded gears, seized components and tired springs ultimately take them down. However, all mechanical cameras can often be serviced and brought back to life.  

On the battery note early electric shutter cameras are barely dependent on them. I put a battery in my F3 2 years ago and its still churning just fine I also use it a fair bit. These cameras hardly chew batteries. Even all mechanical cameras may take a battery to operate the internal meter (if there is one). On that front many of these cameras take a type of 3V Mercury battery that is no longer in production and you may have issues getting the internal meter to work without it. There is lots out there on this topic. You may end up with a selenium cell meter which can drift over time so I don't always trust them. You can be completely battery free with a properly adjust mechanical camera and a known, good, selenium meter.  

The important thing when buying any used camera is not how it looks but how it fires. A beat up body that was recently serviced is always a better choice than a pristine body thats been sitting in an Attic in a box for years. You need to check the lenses for dust, and more importantly fungus. Check the shutter for operation at slow speeds and high speeds that at least sound somewhat right.

Im seeing a lot of FE's available here in the states for <$150 and i would think you can find them where you are as well.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 1, 2018)

I decided to pass on the Ricoh, I just think if it ever did break it would be difficult to source parts or repair, and I could get a K1000 or spotmatic f with a lense for not much more and have access to basically unlimited parts/replacements.

Still keeping my eyes peeled for decent dSLRs too.

There is also a Nikon F60 (N60 in the USA) in one of the local second hand shops, which although fairly new for a film camera and has quite a few features, Iv heard is not all that good (and they look quite cheap and nasty), for $65au - cant remember if it has a lense or not, but Id say not for that price.

The problem here in Australia (and particularly the part I live in) is that sometimes there is nothing and sometimes there is lots, but most of the time unless you live in a big city (the nearest to me being 1300km away) you are often forced to buy online. Its the same with my other interest - guitars; the 2 shops in my city that sell guitars pretty much just have the standards (teles, strats, les paul etc), and you have to be at the right place at the right time to get a good second hand deal, or risk buying online. Things are also usually overpriced here too, especially once its labelled "vintage", even if it was crap in its day and worse now.


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 1, 2018)

The SP F is a fine camera. The problem with film cameras is getting one in good working order, new light seals, new mirror bumper, accurate or close shutter speeds. To bad your in Australia, I'm not sure who to recommend. Too bad your not in the US, I could definitely guide you better. I have a perfect working (new light seals, excellent shutter, working light meter) Spotmatic 1000 and 2 lenses (55mm and 200mm) that would fit your budget prior to shipping. I recently thought it was sold but the guy backed out.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 1, 2018)

Yea, Australia kind of sucks sometimes (but lets not go into that ). There are quite a few spotmatic bodies on ebay from japan that are quite cheap and have at least been checked and have descriptions of the condition and any faults. Lenses on the other hand arent too hard to come by from Australia, but for an old camera like that probably not locally.

One good thing we have here is good consumer protection laws, which means if an item isnt as described (even if its from overseas, but that would be hard to follow up), you are legally entitled to a refund, and sites like ebay, as well as banks, paypal etc. will also do refunds for items that arent as described then they chase up the seller to reimburse them.

Back on topic though, if I were to go for something like a spotmatic, what would a good general purpose lense be?


----------



## compur (Aug 1, 2018)

SoulfulRecover said:


> I use D lenses on my FM2 and can use my G as well. Granted the G will only shoot wide open as I don't have the ability to change the aperture manually from the outside. Of course I may be miss-understanding what you are referring to



For some years after the introduction of AI lenses in 1977 Nikon bodies were made to be partially  compatible with the older pre-AI lenses. So, some Nikon bodies made after 1977 have a tab on their lens mount that can be flipped up allowing the use of pre-AI lenses (in stop-down metering mode). The FM/FE and some other models made during this period have this feature but Nikon dropped it when they released the FM2/FE2/FA models warning that only AI or later lenses could be used with them.


----------



## Gary A. (Aug 1, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> Yea, Australia kind of sucks sometimes (but lets not go into that ). There are quite a few spotmatic bodies on ebay from japan that are quite cheap and have at least been checked and have descriptions of the condition and any faults. Lenses on the other hand arent too hard to come by from Australia, but for an old camera like that probably not locally.
> 
> One good thing we have here is good consumer protection laws, which means if an item isnt as described (even if its from overseas, but that would be hard to follow up), you are legally entitled to a refund, and sites like ebay, as well as banks, paypal etc. will also do refunds for items that arent as described then they chase up the seller to reimburse them.
> 
> Back on topic though, if I were to go for something like a spotmatic, what would a good general purpose lense be?


I have purchased a medium format film camera and quite a few lenses from Japan and they all were delivered promptly and as advertised.  I think Japan is a good source for film stuff.


----------



## SoulfulRecover (Aug 1, 2018)

compur said:


> SoulfulRecover said:
> 
> 
> > I use D lenses on my FM2 and can use my G as well. Granted the G will only shoot wide open as I don't have the ability to change the aperture manually from the outside. Of course I may be miss-understanding what you are referring to
> ...



Oh! ok I understand now. I was thinking about it backwards


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 2, 2018)

Any last words before I take the plunge (not a huge plunge considering its only $50au) and buy a Spotmatic F body? Im going to get a lens later (itll take at least 2 weeks to get here anyway, and I need to get some practice in with a digital camera before I even start messing around too much with the film).

This is the one Im planning on getting:
Pentax Spotmatic SP F SPF 35mm SLR Film Camera Body Only  SN4958172  | eBay

Next question is what my first lens should be. Something suitable for general purpose use (ie. Some close-up stuff but not really macro, people, scenery etc.)? Im thinking one of the takumar/pentax SMC 50mm lenses would be the way to go.


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 2, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> Any last words before I take the plunge (not a huge plunge considering its only $50au) and buy a Spotmatic F body? Im going to get a lens later (itll take at least 2 weeks to get here anyway, and I need to get some practice in with a digital camera before I even start messing around too much with the film).
> 
> This is the one Im planning on getting:
> Pentax Spotmatic SP F SPF 35mm SLR Film Camera Body Only  SN4958172  | eBay
> ...


That camera looks good but you never know about shutter speeds and seals. Takumar 55 1.8 m42 is a good lens. looks like he has some of those.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 2, 2018)

Wow - I didnt even think to check the seller's other items even though they have dozens of spotmatics listed. They have a few Nikon's that are cheaper and have working light meters. Some of the Nikon lenses are cheaper than the Takumars too.

Some of their Nikkormat FTns look good. Im looking at this one:
Nikon Nikomat FTN 35mm SLR Film Camera Body Only SN4159685  | eBay
But there looks like there is some damage on the inside of where the lens mounts (picture 12), so maybe one of the other ones would be better. 

The FTn looks like it has more features (and they all seem to have working light meters), but also look more complicated to use.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 2, 2018)

Id go for the FTN. I have almost the identical one (mine is a Japanese import Nikkormat, same camera different text). They are solid as a brick, literally they are basically carved from a brick of aluminum and will survive just about anything (and mine has). 

That meter does require the 3V battery which is easy to get but somewhat specific. I usually cary a new  hand held meter around with my older stuff just to confirm, unless I can verify the internal meter across the range . 

That camera uses the early lens/meter index couple (but its all F-Mount) you can find more info here. A great deal of the used lenses out there have the tabs but you should watch out when you are buying the lens to ensure they are there. 

The damage looks like light corrosion, assuming its superficial you should be able to get it off gently with a Q-Tip. Even if you dont go for this one the FT is a great camera.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 2, 2018)

The Nikomat (SIC) for $13.50 looks good. Nikkormat and Nikomat, same camera, different markets. Solid, great 1960's Japanese build quality; these have the shutter speed adjustment around the lens mount area, not on the top deck...an older idea that multiple manufacturers have used over the decades.

The 50mm f/2 Nikkor is a decent lens, available in various eras. The 50/1.4 is also decent. The 55mm f/3.5 pre-Ai Micro~Nikkor is a good but very inexpensive macro lens. There are a LOT of Nikon F-mount lenses available on the used market.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 2, 2018)

Awesome. I think Ill go for the Nikomat FTn then, one of the others at the same price without the corrosion (also without the shoe mount on the top, but I cant see myself using a flash or anything to begin with).

Thanks for the lens suggestions too Derrel. That seems to be one of the biggest advantages of going for Nikon over the Spotmatic - having so many options for lenses. The working light meter is also helpful.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 2, 2018)

So I did it - got one of the Nikomats. Now I just have to be patient and save to get a lens or 2. Thanks for the help guys. If anyone else can recommend some glass fire away.


----------



## webestang64 (Aug 3, 2018)

That Nikon should work great for you. I miss my F2 that got stolen I'm waiting for a nice to come into the shop.


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 3, 2018)

I have both the 55 micro and the 50 f/2. The 55 is almost always on my Nikon F. Super lens up close, it's even good at distance shots. The nice thing about the 55 is you can get close and use it as a normal. The 50 f/2 is nicer at distance shots but can't get real close like the 55. 

55 up close on Nikon F, 400tx, sunny 16 because there is no meter in my F.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 3, 2018)

I love the texture in that shot. Never been a huge fan of black and white photos (they can look a little cliche), but I think Ill grab a roll or 2 of B&W film when the camera arrives and I get a lens to go with it, if for no other reason than being easier to develop myself.

On the note of developing, apparently my local Camera house stores can develop and process film still, so it would be interesting to see what kind of results they can produce.


----------



## MartinCrabtree (Aug 3, 2018)

Shooting B&W helps me with composition.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 4, 2018)

This may be a silly question (and more advanced than the level Im at now in any case), but is it possible to manually control the shutter speed on this camera?

One thing Id love to do one day is get some shots of bioluminescent mushrooms at night and capture the glow. For anyone not familiar with these, they have a quite dim glow that usually requires your eyes to adjust to total darkness before you can even see them.

One of the really great things about where I live is I have easy access to a huge range of different environments (an hour drive in any direction from my house can take me to semi-desert, stereotypical Australian outback like you see on TV, dense tropical rainforest and rolling agricultural fields), including the types of places you find these interesting fungi - among other really cool natural subjects.

Obviously though a digital camera would be the easiest for capturing this kind of picture, but still, something Id be interested in trying out if its possible. I can see manual focussing being an advantage here - last time I went on a holiday up in the rainforest I tried to take some pictures of ones I found with my phone, and although I was able to get some pictures of the really bright one I found (that didnt just look like a green blob on a black background), the autofocus was what made it extremely difficult.

20180401 231922
20180401 174959
20180401 174257


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 4, 2018)

For the night stuff, You will need a cable shutter release, sturdy tripod, and if shooting color, fujifilm velvia slide film will probably work the best. You will need to figure out the exposure and it will be long. Bring a flash light so you can set the focus up and see the dials on the camera. You will be shooting in bulb mode and need some sort of timer to count the exposure time and tell you when to release the shutter, via the cable. A hand held light meter would be handy. Not sure if a phone app one would work good or not. Shooting wide open on your lens, I think if it's night, your looking at least a 30s exposure.


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 4, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> I love the texture in that shot. Never been a huge fan of black and white photos (they can look a little cliche), but I think Ill grab a roll or 2 of B&W film when the camera arrives and I get a lens to go with it, if for no other reason than being easier to develop myself.
> 
> On the note of developing, apparently my local Camera house stores can develop and process film still, so it would be interesting to see what kind of results they can produce.


I think black & white is beautiful.  Cliche? I don't know. IMO, a good photograph works well in either color or b & w. When I take pics, I don't usually think in terms of color or b&w, more about light, subject, composition, and what's on the edges of the frame. I prefer 100% viewfinder so I know what's going to be on negative. However, I usually see where to crop my negative if not using a 100% viewfinder.  I love b&w and it's easy to process at home. I process  c41 color negative too but usually wait to I have 6 to 8 rolls shot and buy a C41 kit and use it up in one session. Color chemicals don't last long at all.

Kodak HC110 works well for me on b&w because its concentrated and has a long shelf life, as does the reusable rapid fixer. I shoot mostly Kodak 400tx (TriX), I like the grain.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 4, 2018)

Thanks for the tips.

You're right - a good picture is a good picture.

Id definitely like to have a go at processing my own pictures when I start using film. Having a chemistry background, I find the whole process fascinating. When I go back to uni I should also have access to a darkroom (a lot of the older biochemistry techniques that use x-ray and radiation, as well as stuff that uses fluorescence requires it for processing and visualization), so that will definitely help.

To start with Ill probably just get it processed at my local camera store, but Im not sure how it will turn out.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 7, 2018)

So - update:

Camera should be on its way. At the earliest it will be here at the end of the week, latest maybe end of next week or sometime the week after.

I bought a Nikkor 50mm f/2 lens from Japan, which should arrive next week sometime or the week after (possibly another week after that depending on the mail - I was only able to get it shipped economy). I chose one of the later models with the rubber grippy bits mainly because they can focus an extra 12cm closer, which will be better for plant pictures.


I think to start with Ill probably get a roll of black and white (probably something in the 200asa - TriX?) and a roll of colour (maybe just kodak gold 400 or 200 or something). For the B&W I was thinking of stand developing with coffee, mainly for the simplicity and because its forgiving (correct me if Im wrong here). I can get film developed and printed) by camera house, but they have to send it to Cairns (400km away) and it takes a week, costs $20au a roll and who knows if itll be any good. Ill probably get the colour roll developed that way until I get into doing it myself.

I was also thinking about picking up a cheap scanner, mainly to do a quick check to see which ones are worth keeping and getting processed professionally.


----------



## john.margetts (Aug 7, 2018)

If you are starting out with developing film I would not use caffinol nor would I use stand development.  Get yourself proficient with D76/ID11 as a developer using standard agitation. Once you are proficient with basic development, then try caffinol or try stand development - I would not try both together as you will have no way of knowing what is causing any of the problems you will get.


----------



## jcdeboever (Aug 7, 2018)

TriX or known as 400TX is 400 speed film.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 7, 2018)

Thanks 

Im a bit confused with all the different films available (mainly because there are so many rather than what the _are_). Locally all I can get is Kodak colourmax 400, a 400asa fujifilm and TriX from what Iv seen. I had a look on ebay thisafternoon though and now my head is spinning with all the choices 

No doubt my first couple of rolls will not be great, so there probably isnt much point in going for anything special - especially when I start attempting to develop it myself.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 7, 2018)

As for black and white film and home processing.

First forget brands for a minute and just consider film speeds for a second. You can get a wide variety of BW film from 50 speed all the way up through 3200 100 and 400 are good starting places. There are sill a variety of makers out there but Kodak and Ilford are the big kids on the block. Frankly it does not really matter which film you start with they are all pretty decent these days. Whats important is that you pick one film, and for the first few rolls, stick to it. Learn the film stock, what it does well and what it does not do well. Practically 100 or 400 speed is by far the most commonly used stocks (in my experience). Ilfords FP4 is a good place to start (125ISO) or HP5 in 400 speed, TriX is also a great stock and would be a solid start.

As for home processing as others have mentioned cafinol is not the place to start its a bit inconsistent and harder to control than proper developer. Ill echo other sentiments that you should get comfortable with ID11 or some other standard chemistry. My personal advice is to buy the Ilford stuff, their documentation is VERY good and quite easy to follow. Its perhaps worthy of another thread but for home processing you will need the following,

- Roll of Film (lets say FP4 125ISO)
- Daylight Developing Tank (Paterson's are nice and easy to load and a good place to start)
- Iford DDX (1+4 dilution)
- Iford Stop Bath (you dont actually need this you can use a water bath. I it largely because their documentation calls for it and I get very good results with it).
- Ilford Rapid Fixer (1+4 dilution)
- Distilled Water (you can grab this at your local drug store usually by the gallon you can use tap water but it really depends on your local water. Where I live the water if very hard and can cause drying issues)
- _Completely_ Dark room (you will need this for loading the film into the tank. A closet with a good tight door will work. You can also get a changing bag but no need to spend the $10)

You can get all of this stuff online delivered to your door. It ends up being far cheaper than a lab.

Forget the scanner for now (unless you can find a dedicated film scanner locally). To scan film negatives you need a proper film scanner that has a back lighting unit. You really cant get substantial scans otherwise. You can digitize negatives with a digital camera, do a quick search there are lots of methods out there that are well documented, results vary.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 7, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestions. Ill probably just get whatever film I can get locally cheapest (still have a couple of places to check out that might carry some).

Ill give developing myself a go as soon as possible because it should work out way quicker and cheaper. The only issue is temperature- I live in the tropics, and even in winter it rarely gets below 25°c during the day, and night temps at the moment (end of winter) are in the low 20s.

I mentioned the scanner because I saw one at officeworks for like $60. Its a film scanner, but the reviews arent great, hence suggesting just getting it to check which shots are worth getting printed by someone else.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 7, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> Ill probably just get whatever film I can get locally cheapest



Check your local big box stores (here in the states thats Walmart, Target etc.) a lot of these places still cary film and its very good price wise if they have it. If they dont have it in stock see if they can order it for you, most stores like that in the sates will offer free in-store delivery if they dont have it on hand. 



Kramertron2000 said:


> I live in the tropics, and even in winter it rarely gets below 25°c during the day



Just use an ice bath, thats how most people do it any way (to keep proper temperature control). Again worthy of another thread (and I know there is a thread here somewhere on it) but you can use ice water to chill a container of developer down to temp then dunk the tank as needed to keep it cool.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 7, 2018)

Yeah, Big W (our big box store) is the only one other than the camera chain-store Iv checked so far, but Id say Kmart and Target probably also carry film.

I didnt even think of an ice bath to be honest (odd, because Im a biochemist and using one is fairly standard practice for a lot of what I do). Does going lower than 20°c matter?


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 7, 2018)

Ilford stuff (as thats what I know off hand) is processed at 68F (20C) and I have no trouble holding that with an ice bath even when my apartment is well above that in the summer. Ilford also offers temperature correction charts in their data sheets that are very accurate I have had lots of success processing anywhere from 68F to 78F, as long as you can hold that kind of range you should be ok.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 7, 2018)

Awesome. Good to know. Thanks


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 16, 2018)

So my lens got here today (ahead of the camera for some reason even though I ordered it after the camera).

Its in really good condition, but I realized as soon as I unwrapped it I made a silly mistake.

Its a non-AI lens that doesnt have the little rabbit ears clippy thing to set the light meter 

A bit annoying, but not a huge deal I guess - until I get a battery that will suit the camera and some o-rings I was just going to use the app on my phone for metering anyway. From what I understand though, I can still use stop-down metering too.

Now I just want the camera to get here! I have the lens, and a roll each of Tri-X and fuji superia 400 ready to go.


----------



## Dave442 (Aug 16, 2018)

The non-AI have the “rabbit-ears”. They don’t have the tab that links up inside the lens so you have to ratchet through the f-stops to “Index” the lens. Many later lenses kept the “rabbit ears” to be backwards compatible, but the newer “G” lenses made for digital do not have them as there is no aperture ring on the lens. If there is an aperture ring then you can probably add the “rabbit ears”.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 16, 2018)

To add a bit to what @Dave442  notes the only exception is the D series lenses which do have an aperture ring but practically cant have the rabbit ears added. The small metal ears are added by tapping two screw holes and centering the ears on F/5.6. While you can bore and tap plastic it I would hesitate to do so and hesitate to expect it to hold in place and last.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 16, 2018)

Interesting. The listing said non-AI, and whatever it is, it doesnt have them. Ill take a picture when I get home or rip them from the listing on my break.


----------



## john.margetts (Aug 16, 2018)

Thank god Canon had the sense to abandon their FD mount once it was redundant.

Sent from my 8070 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 16, 2018)

This is from the ebay listing:





It looks like its missing the ring that normally has the rabbit ears on it going by google pictures. If so - ripped off


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 16, 2018)

@Kramertron2000  Nope its there and it even has the holes drilled (look at the holes behind F/4 and F/8). it looks like someone simply removed the tab. All you will need is the tab, and two screws that hold it in place to get this up and running on your FT body.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 16, 2018)

Ah awesome. Well I currently work at a warehouse that sells nuts and bolts, so I can grab a couple from work for that, now I just need to find the tab (or get one made)


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 16, 2018)

Here is one on ebay but frankly there are "for parts" lenses going for almost the same cost and it would be a good way to have some other parts you will never need. 

On the screw front, make sure you dont get anything with to much of a tip taper, some screws are rounded out a bit at the tip to make them easier to get in. There is not a ton of thread depth to work with on this part so the screws need to grip almost as soon as they enter the hole.


----------



## AlanKlein (Aug 16, 2018)

Film smells better than digital.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 17, 2018)

Thanks Dave. That guy apparently doesnt post to Australia (but Im sure if I messaged him he would), but its no big deal - I may even get a "for parts" lens at some stage. The screws I nicked from work are too big too - so the holes are smaller than M2 

Its annoying though, the camera still isnt here (so now I wont get it until at least monday). And I paid extra for standard post over economy, while the lens got sent economy, left Japan like 3 days after the camera did and arrived yesterday. Australia Post is horribly inefficient and slow (I swear they just dont bother to deliver mail on Fridays - I dont think Iv ever gotten mail or a delivery on a Friday).

I was looking forward to playing with it over the weekend too


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 23, 2018)

Its finally arrived, no thanks to Australia Post  It only took 2 weeks to get from Sydney to North QLD, and 3 days to get from the sorting center in my small city to my house, but it's here.

Everything seems to work, the viewfinder has a bit of dust in it, but not too bad. And as a bonus, I got a free packet of soup! 

Now to play around with it for a few hours to make sure the timing on the shutter gets up to speed (if it isnt already) and load it up.


----------



## Dave Colangelo (Aug 23, 2018)

View finder dust is no worry, as long as the lens is clear it will take good pictures. However if the dust is thick black particles that may be from degraded and crumbling light seals which will need to be replaced. They are very easy to replace at home and can be had for <$10 USD on line. I consider it almost mandatory when buying a camera of this age but occasionally luck out and they are still good. 

Check the mirror bumper which should be a soft foam seal on the front edge of where the mirror flips up. If you push down with your finger the seal should be somewhat spongy and come back to its natural position when released. If you come back with little black bits on your finger or its not soft to the touch its time for a fresh one. This one is a bit more important than the rear seals as it protects the mirror as it actuates. If the rear seals are not looking great either some black electrical tape over the gaps will ensure safe operation until you can get a fresh seal in there. The rear seals also have a U channel that the door sits in to help prevent light from getting in just by the shape of them.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 23, 2018)

Thanks for the advice. Iv already loaded a roll of fuji superia now (cheapest available here, so its no great loss if it gets ruined), but before I load the next roll Ill check all the foam.

I knew this thing was heavy but didnt quite anticipate just how heavy it really is - the thing weighs a ton! I like it though. Feels solid, and the clunk of the shutter release is very satisfying. Im also quite pleased with the condition its in - except the slight dust in the viewfinder and a ding in the top part, its pretty pristine looking - even the leatherette is nice and clean, shiny and not peeling away anywhere (I am thinking of personalizing it a bit and maybe giving it a fabric covering over the leatherette).

Cant wait to get out and snap some pictures - I also have monday and tuesday off work, so on tuesday Im going for a drive.


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 24, 2018)

Silly question if anyone is still following this thread, but is the first shot when the exposure counter is on 0 or 1? After you load the film and take 2 blank shots, then cock the shutter it sits on 0.


----------



## boriosi.lorenzo (Aug 24, 2018)

I would start with the Pentax k1000! 

Inviato dal mio SM-G960F utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 24, 2018)

Thanks - I already have the camera now. I got a Nikkormat FTn with a Nikkor 50mm f/2 lens.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 24, 2018)

Kramertron2000 said:


> Silly question if anyone is still following this thread, but is the first shot when the exposure counter is on 0 or 1? After you load the film and take 2 blank shots, then cock the shutter it sits on 0.



If my memory serves me correctly, (and it may or may not!)the old-school, instruction manual recommended way to load 35mm film into a camera was to take three blank shots, with the first frame being on "1". That's my recollection.

Now...if you wanna be devious about it, you could use the old trick of threading the film leader into the take-up spool's slot system, and then advancing just a teeny-tiny  bit to cock the shutter, then going into a 100%,totally dark room, *and only then* in 100% total darkness, pulling the film canister over to the "supply side" compartment, and thus placing fresh, virgin, unexposed film over the film gate area,and not shooting ANY blank frames. This can add up to three frames to a roll of film. This can also result in the first frame, which should _properly_ be considered "leader material", being "flashed" with the Customer Order and Roll I.D. Number in automated processing systems.

But yeah, I believe the old-school way was to load the take-up spool, close the back, and shoot three total blanks. But....most everybody I knew shot two blanks.

There's more than one way to load a 35mm camera with film...


----------



## Kramertron2000 (Aug 24, 2018)

Awesome - thanks. I thought that may be the case, so for shot 0 I just took a picture of a plant on my kitchen bench (something unimportant/throwaway) so I can know for sure when I get the first roll processed.

Thats a cool trick too - I think Ill wait until Im more confident just loading the thing before I try that  I wasnt even sure if I loaded it properly at first because it looked a little loose even after tightening it with the rewind knob before I closed the back, but it seemed to advance correctly for the 2 blank shots I did, so Im sure its fine.

I ended up buying the coupling clip off that guy someone suggested from ebay. He agreed to send it via regular post in an envelope to keep the cost down, so that should get here in a few weeks and Ill be able to use the onboard meter (if it does actually work correctly - im using a 357 silver oxide battery and a bread tie coiled up in the battery compartment).


----------

