# Are most photographers snobs?



## Yemme

Please answer honestly your opinion. :hugs: To all the kind ones.


What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place?  The bottom.  

Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?  

How does one decide who&#8217;s worthy?


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## skieur

Many enthusiasts and pros have done their homework.  They have joined camera clubs, read a considerable number of books, subscribed to photo magazines, took courses, learned from others etc.  Most of us were sufficiently realistic to realize that we were not instant photographers and that a lot of hard work was involved to come even close to quality work.  Even after several years or decades of experience most of us were still willing to listen to valid comments and criticism.You cannot imagine how negative our attitude is toward newbies with arrogant philosophies about the nature of photography and photographic art based on NO study, and NO experience.  Newbies asking the MOST BASIC of questions, because they have not done any reading of anything about photography whatsoever, even the camera manual.  Newbies who think that there are no criteria or "rules" for judging the quality of photographic work and that their views are just as valid as someone with several years of study and experience.  Newbies who may want to be spoon fed, but are really not willing to put forth much of an effort to really learn about photography.  Newbies who don't realize that personal opinion about a photo is just that and varies considerably from the critique of someone with lots of experience who knows how photos are professionally judged.Why should dedicated pros and enthusiasts tolerate what often amounts to laziness, lack of effort to learn, and arrogant stupidity by a growing number of newbies that express those traits?skieur


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## nynfortoo

I don't look down on novices at all, unless they want to be spoon-fed information people have spent _years_ working out, without bothering to put a single bit of effort into it themselves; people who think they can become great photographers from a few posts on the internet, but haven't taken the time to grasp the most basic of concepts before jumping straight into creating a new topic asking for information that's in the manual, or information nobody but themselves can tell them.

And that applies to all hobbies, not just photography.

If someone is new but has taken the time to do some research for themselves and shows a genuine willingness to learn, then I will have all the time in the world for them.

So it isn't newness that bothers me  it's laziness. This forum has a working search function, yet we see exactly the same threads popping up every single day. I hope I don't come across as a snob, but I just ignore them. Why bother repeating something that has been written a thousand times?


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## Mike_E

:thumbup:+1

It's not such a good thing to have some one walk you through a maze. You seldom learn anything lasting, have little appreciation for the work that has gone on before and are not as likely to keep with something that has come so easily.

Having said that I'll have to admit that there are snobs and then there are _snobs_.  The first kind won't answer questions about settings with out trying to explain why those settings work. The second won't answer questions about settings at all.


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## Garbz

I was about to post something similar but narrow down the spectrum.

I add to your question: "Are all Canon 5D owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" Ok admittedly the ones on this forum are nice 

But our photo club was going just fine till along came 2 5D owners, who spend more time masturbating over the fact that they've had a full frame sensor for x number of years, and that the rest of the Canon crowd are better than Nikon simply because Canon manufactured a full frame sensor for longer and rant rant rant. I also liked the one where he said Nikon was useless because Canon has f/1.2 lenses in it's lineup. I pulled out my Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 and kindly pointed out that Nikon made one two, and made one first.

In reality I should have just used the large front element to break his nose.


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## usayit

Much more so now than ever.

Why?

Because there are so many "photographers" since the digital age that many feel the need to set them apart as "better" than everyone else.


Back in film days, photography was a bit of a hassle.  Cost of film.  Time effort to develope.  Time effort to print.  >>NO INSTANT GRATIFICATION<<.  As such,  only the people whose interest in photography outweighed the "hassle" stuck around long enough to consider themselves photographers.  The "population" was smaller more selective and a larger percentage were truly passionate and could care less about snobbery.... it still existed but to a lesser extent

The big push for digital in marketing also didn't help.... so much focus on what the equipment can do and not what it can enable a photographer to accomplish.

Now I"m not saying this is a bad thing.. I think the sudden climb of interest in photography is great and digital technology is a direct result.  I like it when people stop me to ask questions for the sake of learning.  You gotta take the good and bad together.

That's just my observation...


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## craig

Honestly it is generalizations like amateur and pro, newb and expert or whatever that kill photography. Photography is a personal journey. First and foremost it comes down to the work that you currently shoot. Maybe it is quality, maybe it needs work. In any case concentrate on making your photos stronger as opposed trying to figure out who is worthy or not.

To answer the question that I think you are posing: professional photography is like swimming with sharks. If you take the art seriously you will find your audience. If you keep asking questions you will sink.

Love & Bass


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## tirediron

Are yewwwwwwww talking to meee? Please. Go back and get at lest 10Mp before you even think of breathing my air!


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## Bifurcator

*Yemme Wrote:*
Please answer honestly your opinion. :hugs: To all the kind ones.


What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place?  The bottom.  
Frustration at not being able to communicate.
Fear of being found incompetent.
Small weenie?

The topic specifies photographers though and there's probably less snobbery among photographers than many other professions. Photographers usually love to share and include others.


Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?  
Did you get slammed recently by some jerk or something? Shine him on! He's a loser! Competition is what it is and is as it is in every profession. Photography is no more or less so.


How does one decide who&#8217;s worthy?
Usually yourself. If others disagree you'll find out soon enough. At that point reevaluation may be needed.


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## Yemme

Thanks guys!  

Now, my question for how one decides who's worthy, I got a response for that but I was thinking more along the lines of &#8220;popularity.&#8221;  I've seen images from people who are not famous.  The imagery is captivating just breathtaking.  Then there are other&#8217;s who&#8217;s um&#8230;mmmm&#8230; images ah look like garbage (said in a French accent).  Now my eyes are new to the photography world.  But I bet even if it wasn&#8217;t it would still look like trash.  I know how it works in the painting and sculpting world but I would think photography would be different.  Is it still all about who knows you and whom you know?  Don&#8217;t hold back if you understand where I&#8217;m coming from.   



usayit said:


> Back in film days, photography was a bit of a hassle.  Cost of film.  Time effort to develope.  Time effort to print.  >>NO INSTANT GRATIFICATION<<.  As such,  only the people whose interest in photography outweighed the "hassle" stuck around long enough to consider themselves photographers.  The "population" was smaller more selective and a larger percentage were truly passionate and could care less about snobbery.... it still existed but to a lesser extent



This explains a great deal.


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## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?
> Did you get slammed recently by some jerk or something? Shine him on! He's a loser! Competition is what it is and is as it is in every profession. Photography is no more or less so.



No hun... I'm just someone who likes photography but I'm very observant and I get the feeling that people become a little agitated when another photographer is added to the pool.  I'm not a photographer I'm just a girl with a camera.  I enjoy it that&#8217;s all.


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## Bifurcator

OK, when you say you're "observant" and get these feelings, do you mean in your off-line social circles or with on-line stuff?

If it's with on-line stuff I've found that my own feelings and fears determine a huge amount of how I interoperate "the attitude" of whoever it is I'm reading. Especially if they aren't that good of a communicator in the first place - which is probably most of us.


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## LaFoto

In my off-line life, I have been confronted with the instant clamming-up (and/or becoming arrogant) of other photographers before. Both the persons I am thinking of are professionals, pay their monthly bills out of their photography business alone, and may use cameras classes better than mine. And someone like me is all unlikely to put up any kind of THREAT to them! 

However, the one - who I once asked if I could assist him on weddings just so I can see how things work - preferred not to like me instantly and to only say hallo to me with a painful look in his eyes when we meet. And the other, a sports photographer for a newspaper, felt the instant need to explain to me that without turfing out thousands of Euro on equipment first, one would not be able to work as a pro, ever.

Shrug!


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## Bifurcator

I hope you're not 2 for 2. That would totally suck! I'm sorry to hear you got a couple of bad ones there. With me, I've been pretty lucky. I'm very often invited into studios, to accompany/observe shoots (if it isn't going to be too hectic), or attend gallery showings/exhibits. I guess it could be because of my known contacts with filmmakers here and it's just that they're hoping for a little kick-down - but it mostly didn't seem that way to me.


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## Alex_B

Garbz said:


> I add to your question: "Are all Canon 5D owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" Ok admittedly the ones on this forum are nice



Your story is quite sad, but I would not make the full frame responsible. I as a 5D shooter am often confronted by Nikon-shooters, quite aggressively. Even on the streets, total strangers. Usually I try to ignore them. Same at work, the small group of people liking photography, thinking about composition and all, are shooting Canon, whereas the gearheads mainly shoot Nikon.

So I have to ask "Are all Nikon owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" :lmao: Got my point?  Not making this up ...


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## Alex_B

Bifurcator said:


> Frustration at not being able to communicate.
> Fear of being found incompetent.
> Small weenie?



All three things quite common with Novices too.
Plus, in Germany, you find many Novices in disguise with superb gear. And they are the worst snobs


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## Alex_B

Yemme said:


> What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place?  The bottom.



I only look down on those novices who are resistant to advice, who think they do not need to learn but just buy a better camera, and those novices who laugh at me when I spend 30 minutes for one shot (waiting for the right light, clouds, tourists to leave the scene).



> Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?


Sometimes it might be fear. The last wedding I attended of course I brought my camera with me. And the moment the pro wedding photographer saw me he got very scared.

But mostly looking down stems from inflated egos I think.



> How does one decide who&#8217;s worthy?


Compare yourself to others (your photographs with theirs), ask yourself what you want to achieve, what are your goals and how far you got with them, and then judge by yourself.



Yemme said:


> Now, my question for how one decides who's worthy, I got a response for that but I was thinking more along the lines of &#8220;popularity.&#8221; I've seen images from people who are not famous. The imagery is captivating just breathtaking. Then there are other&#8217;s who&#8217;s um&#8230;mmmm&#8230; images ah look like garbage (said in a French accent). Now my eyes are new to the photography world. But I bet even if it wasn&#8217;t it would still look like trash. I know how it works in the painting and sculpting world but I would think photography would be different. Is it still all about who knows you and whom you know? Don&#8217;t hold back if you understand where I&#8217;m coming from.



Maybe some of those where you think their photography is not special, maybe it is just not your taste? Maybe they try to express things you do not like or you do not care about. So again ask yourself, what is their goal? Did they achieve it? That way you might get a bit more objective about their work and see that it is special in the end, even though you might not like it, or even think it is boring.

But you are also right, that today it is also about being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people. Some at least locally famous photographers are simply pushed by their influential friends/supporters. Unfortunately some people with money to support arts, do not know a damn thing about arts and simply have no eye for anything.


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## Bifurcator

Alex_B said:


> Your story is quite sad, but I would not make the full frame responsible. I as a 5D shooter am often confronted by Nikon-shooters, quite aggressively. Even on the streets, total strangers. Usually I try to ignore them. Same at work, the small group of people liking photography, thinking about composition and all, are shooting Canon, whereas the gearheads mainly shoot Nikon.
> 
> So I have to ask "Are all Nikon owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" :lmao: Got my point?  Not making this up ...



So that's the answer then! Buy Olympus, Pentax, Sigma, Contax, Sony, Fuji, or Minolta and everyone will just leave you alone. 

You'll have a better camera for the money too! 


Either that or just rub off the brand name and tell everyone it's home made. :lmao:


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## Chris of Arabia

Bifurcator said:


> You'll have a better camera for the money too!


 
Tout au contraire!


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## Jedo_03

Yemme said:


> Please answer honestly your opinion. :hugs: To all the kind ones.
> 
> 
> What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place? The bottom.
> 
> Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?
> 
> How does one decide whos worthy?


 
Yes dear, they are ALL snobs...
They forget their humble roots - when they first acquired a camera - when their shoots came out crappy... and they din't know what the ell they were doing... and their pics were too dark - too bright...
They forget that...
They zoom-in on how great they think they are now.
Adobe is their saviour...
Hail Adobe...:hail:
You see posts that say "every digital image needs to be PP'd"...
Bullsh*t...!!!
Find the light - shoot it...
Technique is it...
Jedo


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## Rick Waldroup

Jedo, do you shoot a digital camera?

The best answer to the OP's question was in the very first response, by skieur.  He nails it with this observation- "Why should dedicated pros and enthusiasts tolerate what often amounts to laziness, lack of effort to learn, and arrogant stupidity by a growing number of newbies that express those traits?skieur"

He pretty much summed it up as to why a lot of seasoned photographers have a real, personal disdain for newbies.


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## Pugs

Alex_B said:


> Sometimes it might be fear. The last wedding I attended of course I brought my camera with me. And the moment the pro wedding photographer saw me he got very scared.


 
At a buddy's wedding a few months ago, I had an experience like this.  I was making a point of staying out of the Official Photographer's way by staying out of his sight-lines, not shooting over his shoulder, and definitely not getting in his shots.  While they were doing the posed photos outside of the church after the ceremony, I left to go take pictures of the riverfront.  As far as I was concerned that was his time that he was being paid for.  At the reception I stayed on the fringes to be sure I stayed out of his (and his assistant's) way.

He had a major issue with me, though.  During the ceremony, he swung by and whispered in my ear that the priest had asked for no flashes so I turned mine off.  A few minutes later I looked over and noticed that he and his assistant were both popping off with their flashes.  During the reception, for the organized events like cutting the cake, first dance, etc... there were several times that he moved from his better vantage point and purposefully came and stood RIGHT in front of me.  I was making a point of standing away from these things with a longer lens to make sure I didn't intrude on the moment or on the Official Photographer and his assistant.  

I chalk it up to a bit of insecurity on his part.  I'm a rank amateur with a more camera than I can competently use at this point.  I was being conscientious about the fact that I was NOT the Official Photographer and that I should not mess with this man's living.  

Oh well... there are insecure a$$hats in every profession/hobby.


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## Bifurcator

See, there's a couple of things that just seem all wrong to me about that.  If it were my wedding my guests come first. The photog is PAID to stay out of THEIR way except for the posed shots and even then. And the priest giving orders about MY WEDDING?? He's fired!   Same with the photog... if he can't behave I wouldn't mind stepping over during the ceremony even, and asking him to shape up or take a hike.  My guests would be MUCH more important to me than "having" pictures. :-/

Have weddings that are supposed to be all about sharing joy and excitement with your friends and family, really become so commercial? 

If it were my wedding I would expect that ear-whisper to have been a word of encouragement,  the sharing of a tip, or a compliment of some kind. Likewise if I were the the man on the job I would (and did for the weddings I did in ancient times) keep all those things in mind. I can't believe someone showed up to a wedding and then acted like that?!?!?!


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## ksmattfish

Yemme said:


> I know how it works in the painting and sculpting world but I would think photography would be different.



Why?  Art business is Art business.  Capital A Art is high falootin', big money Art and has everything to do with networking, promotion, celebrity, trends, cliques, etc...  Little a art is part of the human condition, and goes on with or without money or fame.  



Yemme said:


> I'm just someone who likes photography but I'm very observant and I get the feeling that people become a little agitated when another photographer is added to the pool. I'm not a photographer I'm just a girl with a camera. I enjoy it thats all.



Your complaint (if that's what it is?) is too vague.  Who is being snobbish to you, and what are the circumstances?  Photographers are people.  Some people are jerks.  Some people are jerks in certain situations.  Some folks aren't jerks at all, but may seem like it in certain situations.  

I find that when communicating through typed monologues (such as photo forums) lack of voice inflection, facial expressions, and hand motions can make the conversation seem much more terse than it would be in person.   

If you are wondering why your local pros aren't interested in taking you on please consider that even a lowly hack such as myself gets a dozen emails/phone calls every month from people who want to be my assistant.  Most can't even pass my are-you-gonna-get-an-interview interview.  Being a decent photographer does not mean they are going to be a decent photographer's assistant.  I'm not trying to be snobby, I'm just really busy, and I've already got all the assistance I need (and can afford) right now.  

Check out your local photography groups.  I'm sure there are some nasty ones, but every one I've participated in has been friendly and helpful.  My local group has members ranging in skill level from pros to folks who bought their 1st camera yesterday.  Sure, occasionally there's some good natured film vs. digital ribbing, or "my camera is bigger than your camera", but everyone knows that stuff is silly.  We have fun, and learn from each other.


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## ZachGibson

I consider myself a bit snobby to people involved in skateboard photography to be perfectly honest.  Almost all kids that are just deciding they want to shoot pictures don't know much about it and think that all there is to shooting is slapping a 10.5 on your camera with a flash sandwich and framing the person in the sky because that's what they see in magazines.  It drives me nuts to hear kids asking me why I never bring my fish, when that's really my last resort for when we go out and I know I'm not going to get a better composition.  

It's hard to explain to people who aren't familiar with the sport, but basically, anyone who's new thinks that every picture should be one of these:






When any experienced skate photographer would rather see a loose, longer lens comp. than another boring stock angle.  More along the lines of this:





I hope that made sense because it was hard to explain


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## dEARlEADER

tirediron said:


> Are yewwwwwwww talking to meee? Please. Go back and get at lest 10Mp before you even think of breathing my air!



10 megapixels??....... pfff... amateur....


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## dEARlEADER

Alex_B said:


> So I have to ask "Are all Nikon owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" :lmao: Got my point?  Not making this up ...




trolly troller......


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## Village Idiot

Noobs are fun.

I like to help noobs.

But one thread some one was looking between a d80 and an xsi. There were a lot of photographers (experienced / semi- experienced) telling the person (who wanted to do sports) that they should looks at a new 30D (cheaper than either of the two they were looking at), a D200, 20D, etc.... Something that made sense so the noob wasn't going to ended up coming back and asking "why do my pictures suck" when he was shooting soccer with a D80 and 50mm f/1.8.

One person, who seemed new to photography themselves, came into the thread and said something along the lines of "I went to the store and held the d80 and xsi. I bought the d80 without hesitation and will never have to buy another camera again". The next post was the OP quoting that person and saying "D80 it is" and basically ignoring all the advice that was being dished out.

That makes you want to smack a noob.


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## Alex_B

dEARlEADER said:


> trolly troller......



mind explaining that one?


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## K_Pugh

running around all whacked on the nooby smacks?


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## Bifurcator

ZachGibson said:


> I consider myself a bit snobby to people involved in skateboard photography to be perfectly honest.



Yeah, I think by reading this thread that this must be fairly common in the western world. It's not here thankfully. So what do you get out of being snobbish to them? I mean, how do you feel when you find out the guy you just dissed or whatever has an uncle that owns Skateboarder magazine and might have been able to get you a little fame and fun?

I always think it's better to be cool to everyone and network - work together and scratch each other's back. Thankfully I live in a country where that's the prevailing attitude. It makes for a very happy, healthy, enabled, and profitable atmosphere. 

BTW, I wasn't trying to point the finger or anything. Just wondering out loud and noticing a few things.

Cool pics BTW!  (Don't let it go to your head tho )


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## Chris of Arabia

K_Pugh said:


> running around all whacked on the nooby smacks?



Nothing wrong with a little Fun Loving Criminals eh...


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## K_Pugh

Glad someone picked up on it, didn't want to seem like a crazy person lol. 

Yeah, i don't know about the whole snobbery thing. I haven't met too many photographers around here. The ones i've previously applied to for assistance work have been generally nice over the phone.


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## dEARlEADER

Alex_B said:


> mind explaining that one?




sure....  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll 

the context of your post included material the could be considered baiting... the blunt accusation of Nikon owners being unable to focus on composition due to their inherent obsession with gear could provoke unnecessary emotional responses from the forum brethern.....

you may have been responding to Garbz post about Canon 5D owners and accuse him of being the primary troller.... however, it should be obvious this is not true as Garbz shoots Nikon... in the end his claim against 5D owners is validated as non trolling as he is simply speaking the truth...


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## Alex_B

this is too confusing for me *click*


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## Alpha

Most photographers are not snobs.

Whether on some forum, or in real life, most experienced photographers would be happy to help a beginner.

But don't ask to be spoon-fed. I will teach you every single thing I know if you invest yourself simultaneously in learning on your own. But I will turn into the world's biggest snob if you act like you deserve it simply by virtue of asking for it. Gotta put in work.


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## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> OK, when you say you're "observant" and get these feelings, do you mean in your off-line social circles or with on-line stuff?



I'm talking about reality.  Not virtual reality.  I like the word photographer but I don't think it should be used as a label until one has reached the status (an understanding of the art form).  A snob is a snob no matter what field.  My issue is it seems the rate of photgrpahers has increased and it's as though "real photographers" or "older ones" have issues with another one popping up.  My question is, is the pool that filled?  Is there no space left in the photography world.  I'm not including the paparazzi in this. I hope this helps Bifurcator.


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## kundalini

Yemme said:


> Then there are other&#8217;s who&#8217;s um&#8230;mmmm&#8230; images ah look like garbage (said in a French accent). Now my eyes are new to the photography world. But I bet even if it wasn&#8217;t it would still look like trash.


Alex had a very succinct response to this view already.

My contribution is that you should look at images, whether it's on-line galleries, magazines, hard bound collections of photographers or whatever other medium you chose. Study the image and deduce what the photographer did to capture that moment in time. The lighting, point of view, depth of field, shutter speed and on and on and on. Then try to emulate the shot. Sometimes the _garbage_ is quite extraordinary indeed.

I am only an amature with plenty to learn. However, when I get to the point that I am consistant with my photography, I will only look down to those who are vertically challenged. I will and do, brush off those that are lazy, arrogant, do not take responsibility and are unwilling to listen...quietly.


[EDIT]  There have several reference to brand snobs.  Those abound in multitude, but I don't think that's where the OP was heading.  Nikon was my choice, yours is yours.  Care to out for a shoot?  Just my 2¢. [/EDIT]


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## Yemme

LaFoto said:


> In my off-line life, I have been confronted with the instant clamming-up (and/or becoming arrogant) of other photographers before. Both the persons I am thinking of are professionals, pay their monthly bills out of their photography business alone, and may use cameras classes better than mine. And someone like me is all unlikely to put up any kind of THREAT to them!
> 
> However, the one - who I once asked if I could assist him on weddings just so I can see how things work - preferred not to like me instantly and to only say hallo to me with a painful look in his eyes when we meet. And the other, a sports photographer for a newspaper, felt the instant need to explain to me that without turfing out thousands of Euro on equipment first, one would not be able to work as a pro, ever.
> 
> Shrug!



:hug:: It's ok...

But what you&#8217;re saying is kinda what I mean.  They found their way, now you find yours.  Why not abuse a new comer and use them to your delight.  I just don&#8217;t' understand the logic.  Even if your only carrying equipment, help.


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## ZachGibson

Bifurcator said:


> Yeah, I think by reading this thread that this must be fairly common in the western world. It's not here thankfully. So what do you get out of being snobbish to them? I mean, how do you feel when you find out the guy you just dissed or whatever has an uncle that owns Skateboarder magazine and might have been able to get you a little fame and fun?
> 
> I always think it's better to be cool to everyone and network - work together and scratch each other's back. Thankfully I live in a country where that's the prevailing attitude. It makes for a very happy, healthy, enabled, and profitable atmosphere.
> 
> BTW, I wasn't trying to point the finger or anything. Just wondering out loud and noticing a few things.
> 
> Cool pics BTW!  (Don't let it go to your head tho )



Those shots were just examples!  Hahaha, as much as I'd love to take credit for the second one, it's not mine.

I'm not mean to anyone about it, I just get tired of having anyone else I'm out with asking about where my 15 is, or being told I need to hurry up and get a 30 for my Hassy.  A lot of them are just really stubborn about breaking loose from the super tight comps, I'm patient about it, but it would wear thin on anyone's nerves.

I'm a nice snob I guess?


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## Yemme

Alex_B said:


> Maybe some of those where you think their photography is not special, maybe it is just not your taste? Maybe they try to express things you do not like or you do not care about. So again ask yourself, what is their goal? Did they achieve it? That way you might get a bit more objective about their work and see that it is special in the end, even though you might not like it, or even think it is boring.



Alex Alex Alex.... Maybe your right.  Maybe it is taste.  But honestly ... have you seen images that just made you think how did this person make it to where they are today?  Honestly... please be honest poeple.


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## Alpha

It's OK to be bad when you start out. Just not _too_ bad.


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## Alex_B

Yemme said:


> Alex Alex Alex.... Maybe your right.  Maybe it is taste.  But honestly ... have you seen images that just made you think how did this person make it to where they are today?  Honestly... please be honest poeple.



Well, did you read on? 



Alex_B said:


> But you are also right, that today it is also about being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people. Some at least locally famous photographers are simply pushed by their influential friends/supporters. Unfortunately some people with money to support arts, do not know a damn thing about arts and simply have no eye for anything.



This more or less was aiming in exactly the same direction as you! 

Of course there are people where I wonder how they got the job, and why they got not torn into pieces after delivering the results. And in galleries also I wonder sometimes, why _this_ particular image. Some I would blame on my taste, but some on lack in talent or effort with the one who produced the images. sure.


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## Yemme

Rick Waldroup said:


> Jedo, do you shoot a digital camera?
> 
> The best answer to the OP's question was in the very first response, by skieur.  He nails it with this observation- "Why should dedicated pros and enthusiasts tolerate what often amounts to laziness, lack of effort to learn, and arrogant stupidity by a growing number of newbies that express those traits?skieur"
> 
> He pretty much summed it up as to why a lot of seasoned photographers have a real, personal disdain for newbies.



My question is have you tried viewing it from a newbies perspective at all, that we are not lazy.  We've joined a photography community to learn more.  Instead of just putting our camera down because we don&#8217;t know what to do.  Many people buy cameras and there collecting dust at this very moment.  I understand that literature also helps but this setting is also another vehicle of educating ourselves.  I absorb what I read and see.  The redundancy is murder on your eyes I understand but every one crawls before they walk.


----------



## Alpha

Yemme said:


> My question is have you tried viewing it from a newbies perspective at all, that we are not lazy.  We've joined a photography community to learn more.  Instead of just putting our camera down because we don&#8217;t know what to do.  Many people buy cameras and there collecting dust at this very moment.  I understand that literature also helps but this setting is also another vehicle of educating ourselves.  I absorb what I read and see.  The redundancy is murder on your eyes I understand but every one crawls before they walk.



I don't think you understand. How does joining a "community" constitute work? 

There's not very much good information here anyway. But you hadn't noticed that. That's why you stuck around. 

Go read a book. Why do you need someone riding you to figure out why your photo doesn't look the way it should? Grow a pair already. Eyes, I mean.


----------



## Alpha

One thing I'm really sick and tired of is the sheer laziness. I'm so tired of hearing the same stupid, lame excuses from people, like "I'm having trouble reading the manual" and "I don't learn well from books." Is it the bootstraps or the IQ above 70 that you're lacking? If you don't have the discipline, fortitude, and intelligence to go out and learn on your own and troubleshoot your own mistakes, then I honestly think you should lay down the camera.


----------



## Yemme

ksmattfish said:


> Why?  Art business is Art business.  Capital A Art is high falootin', big money Art and has everything to do with networking, promotion, celebrity, trends, cliques, etc...  Little a art is part of the human condition, and goes on with or without money or fame.
> 
> 
> 
> Your complaint (if that's what it is?) is too vague.  Who is being snobbish to you, and what are the circumstances?  Photographers are people.  Some people are jerks.  Some people are jerks in certain situations.  Some folks aren't jerks at all, but may seem like it in certain situations.
> 
> I find that when communicating through typed monologues (such as photo forums) lack of voice inflection, facial expressions, and hand motions can make the conversation seem much more terse than it would be in person.
> 
> If you are wondering why your local pros aren't interested in taking you on please consider that even a lowly hack such as myself gets a dozen emails/phone calls every month from people who want to be my assistant.  Most can't even pass my are-you-gonna-get-an-interview interview.  Being a decent photographer does not mean they are going to be a decent photographer's assistant.  I'm not trying to be snobby, I'm just really busy, and I've already got all the assistance I need (and can afford) right now.
> 
> Check out your local photography groups.  I'm sure there are some nasty ones, but every one I've participated in has been friendly and helpful.  My local group has members ranging in skill level from pros to folks who bought their 1st camera yesterday.  Sure, occasionally there's some good natured film vs. digital ribbing, or "my camera is bigger than your camera", but everyone knows that stuff is silly.  We have fun, and learn from each other.



I just thought it would be different .  Wow... I don't even know why I thought that.  No one was rude to me.  I&#8217;ve actually seen people in a group do the brush off, I&#8217;m up here your down there.  I cannot be seen with you!  I just couldn&#8217;t understand it when there work was sh*t.  Just weird.  I didn&#8217;t know about local photo groups might look into it.  Thanks for your input.


----------



## Yemme

Alpha said:


> I don't think you understand. How does joining a "community" constitute work?
> 
> There's not very much good information here anyway. But you hadn't noticed that. That's why you stuck around.
> 
> Go read a book. Why do you need someone riding you to figure out why your photo doesn't look the way it should? Grow a pair already. Eyes, I mean.



In my eyes I think asking for help is a step in right direction.  If I don&#8217;t understand something I ask.  Being lazy to me is not even caring about the subject.  People care to get feedback.  I appreciate everyone&#8217;s input since I&#8217;ve been here.  I&#8217;ve learned a lot from looking at images also, especially different angles.  Not being afraid to view things differently.  This site has its good point. I will take your advice though and grow a pair.


----------



## Alpha

All I'm saying is that, in my experience, people learn much faster the old fashioned way than they do trying to pick everything up from the internet. Forums are generally a bad learning tool. There are very few people here whose work I've seen markedly improve over the last few years.


----------



## Alpha

This place will never be an acceptable substitute for what one could, and I believe should, learn on their own.


----------



## Robin

The biggest types of photography snobs I have come across are those who think that the best photographers are always self taught and anyone who went to school for photography is never going to be as good as they are. I can't understand how anyone could possibly judge people by how they learned something rather than what type of work they can produce. It's a disgusting display of elitism and I can't even begin to describe my distain for this type of attitude.


----------



## Alpha

Robin said:


> The biggest types of photography snobs I have come across are those who think that the best photographers are always self taught and anyone who went to school for photography is never going to be as good as they are. I can't understand how anyone could possibly judge people by how they learned something rather than what type of work they can produce. It's a disgusting display of elitism and I can't even begin to describe my distain for this type of attitude.



I don't know anyone who went to school for photography who believes that it made them a better photographer. The real value is using it to get your foot in the door at bigger and better opportunities.


----------



## Robin

Alpha said:


> I don't know anyone who went to school for photography who believes that it made them a better photographer. The real value is using it to get your foot in the door at bigger and better opportunities.


 
I was talking about the opposite: photographers who are self taught and did not go to school for photography. Some - not all - believe that anyone who DID go to school for photography is automatically someone with lesser talent. These are people who believe that photography is more about talent which can't be taught at school. They believe that people who go to school to learn photography do so because they lack talent and mistakenly think they will learn it in school. 

I can go on. I've had many arguements who people who have the above beliefs. I myself went to a photography school and while I don't think I'm the most talented, some of my fellow students were undeniably talented and artistic. 

But like you, I've never known anyone who went to photography school who thinks that self taught photographers are any less talented or skillful. But the opposite I have definitely met.


----------



## Alpha

While I don't believe that photography school is for no-talent hacks, I do think that if you don't have an eye going into it then you'll probably come out of it as a "blue collar photographer."


----------



## Alex_B

In most cases you only benefit from classes, if you bring something with you, be it enthusiasm, talent, whatever, ...

I am self-taught, and sometimes I encounter quite the opposite, people who think you can only bee good if you did learn everything at school.

I think the consent should be, that there are several ways of learning and growing. Everyone should do what is best for him/her, and in the end only the images produced should count.


----------



## Robin

Alpha said:


> While I don't believe that photography school is for no-talent hacks, I do think that if you don't have an eye going into it then you'll probably come out of it as a "blue collar photographer."


 
Probably but I did see students who showed up to photography school with no experience or education whatsoever and within 2 years wound up graduating top of their class and were some of the most skilled and talented photographers I've known. Maybe they were just lucky that they went in not knowing if they had the "eye" or not but found out that they did. 

But anyway, it's the people who won't admitt that that even one person who went to a photography school could possibly be more talented than themselves. It's stereotyping at the most extreme and it's just ridiculous.


----------



## Yemme

Alpha said:


> This place will never be an acceptable substitute for what one could, and I believe should, learn on their own.



I would love to view your images.  What's your website?


----------



## Trenton Romulox

Well, I do believe that there is such a thing as 'the eye'. And that right there plays a rather substantial role in the potential of a photographer. But whether or not someone reaches their own potential is a test of their work ethic, willingness to learn, and drive more than whether or not they possess 'the eye'. There are a fair number of people out there with 'the eye'. But not all that many people that put in the serious time to learn the techniques necessary to really take advantage of their gift. And there is a large number of people who don't necessarily have the most creative mind, and don't have 'the eye', but they take the time to improve, they read books, they study other photographer's work, and they take what those who have already put in the time say to heart; and that is what sets the great photographer apart from the good ones, not which ones have 'the eye'. If person A (has a good eye) and person B (doesn't have a great eye)  put in the same amount of work, will person A end up with better work? Probably. But is that really what it's about, being better than everyone else? Or is it about reaching your own personal goals, putting in your best effort, and being able to say at the end of the day that you gave something your all, and that's more of a victory than most will ever achieve? 

Now, I can sit here and make this more personal: I've been told I have a gift, or 'the eye' from a large number of people, some I knew, some I had never met, some I knew existed but hadn't really talked to. I've taken one class, read zero books, and didn't read my camera's manual. I got my first camera in January of 2007 and took it out of the box, had my dad put the kit lens on 'cause I didn't know how to, and put it in manual mode. Then I spent a considerable amount of time just shooting. Shooting this, shooting that. Until I learned what shutter speeds and apertures worked for what. I didn't even know what aperture was at first. I just figured it out by shooting. I didn't even know I had a light meter until that July. I learned how to expose simply by shooting in a considerable amount of lighting situations inside, outside, in the morning, at noon, at sunset, at night and figuring out what worked at what shutter speeds and apertures. Could I have learned faster by reading? Yes. I taught myself to operate a camera. I learned about advanced techniques by studying photographs. And then I executed them through trial and error. I feel fine about how I've progressed, I feel fine about how I learned, and I feel fine about learning through communities. Whether or not I have 'the eye', I'm not sure yet.


----------



## Alpha

Yemme said:


> I would love to view your images.  What's your website?



What's that? You want my "credentials?" Let's not beat around the bush. You would not "love to view" my images. You'd love to find out if I also walk the walk. Perhaps you should just err on the side of caution and add me to your ignore list, so you can avoid the hassle of trying to decide whether or not I'm worthy of being listened to. In fact, I'd prefer it to a pissing contest. You wanna see how big my balls are? Use the search function.


----------



## usayit

I believe it takes study AND talent to be successful in almost any field.  You cannot deny the importance of either.....  

Many self taught people will down play formal study.
Many highly studied people will down play pure talent. 

Both groups are snobs for not acknowledging the importance of both


----------



## Rick Waldroup

Alpha said:


> What's that? You want my "credentials?" Let's not beat around the bush. You would not "love to view" my images. You'd love to find out if also walk the walk. Perhaps you should just err on the side of caution and add me to your ignore list, so you can avoid the hassle of trying to decide whether or not I'm worthy of being listened to. In fact, I'd prefer it to a pissing contest. You wanna see how big my balls are? Use the search function.


 
Max, you're a stand-up kinda guy.  I knew, sooner or later, you would piss off the OP.  :lmao:


----------



## John_Olexa

Yemme said:


> Please answer honestly your opinion. :hugs: To all the kind ones.
> 
> 
> What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place? The bottom.
> 
> Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?
> 
> How does one decide who&#8217;s worthy?


 

I don't look down on them. I was one once to. I'll help all I can, even when I'm working I'll still take the time to help someone. I shoot a lot of "events" where there's lots of photographers , Funny, for what ever reason even when I was just starting out other photographers would ask me questions.. lots of them LOL I guess I looked the part :mrgreen:

Now I will get annoyed with the novice who ..acts like a Know it all, all cocky and such, there on there own with me. 

But for the most part it's a good furturnity, Even shooting large concerts from the pit, where it's every photographer from there selves, elbow to elbow theres still plenty of common courtesy. 

Bottom line is I'll go out of my way to help a novice out. 

I'm shooting "Jet Wars" at Maryland International Raceway Next Sat. shooting last years event there was a novice there and I noticed he had no form of ear protection!! I use a headset, but carry a pack of cheap ear plugs. I gave him a pair to wear and he was very thankful. Said it was his first drag race and he forgot about that. Maybe he will remember that and help out someone else later down the road.


----------



## Squeeky

skieur said:


> You cannot imagine how negative our attitude is toward newbies with arrogant philosophies about the nature of photography and photographic art based on NO study, and NO experience. Newbies asking the MOST BASIC of questions, because they have not done any reading of anything about photography whatsoever, even the camera manual.


 Thankfully I didn't/don't. I only think I don't suck because I can take a photo without cut off heads and other really stupid mistakes. I do look up infomation, I know I don't know much but then that's why I ask other people, people I don't even know if they have a lot of experance behind their statements. 
I have seen people who do that, not in photography but other art like drawing, thinking they are good when they are horriable at it & refuse to admit it.


----------



## abraxas

usayit said:


> I believe it takes study AND talent to be successful in almost any field.  You cannot deny the importance of either.....
> 
> Many self taught people will down play formal study.
> Many highly studied people will down play pure talent.
> 
> Both groups are snobs for not acknowledging the importance of both



x2

How many snobs have you counted in this thread?


----------



## Yemme

Alpha said:


> What's that? You want my "credentials?" Let's not beat around the bush. You would not "love to view" my images. You'd love to find out if also walk the walk. Perhaps you should just err on the side of caution and add me to your ignore list, so you can avoid the hassle of trying to decide whether or not I'm worthy of being listened to. In fact, I'd prefer it to a pissing contest. You wanna see how big my balls are? Use the search function.



A simple no would suffice.  I&#8217;ve viewed many images by posters and the links are available in their signature.  You don&#8217;t have one so I asked for one.  I don&#8217;t beat around the bush hun if I have something to say I will.  I have no intention of putting anyone on an ignore list.  If that&#8217;s how you deal with your issues do as please. I would do a search but I&#8217;m not too fond of balls however I&#8217;d love to see how big your c*ck is.


----------



## Alpha

Yemme said:


> A simple no would suffice.  I&#8217;ve viewed many images by posters and the links are available in their signature.  You don&#8217;t have one so I asked for one.  I don&#8217;t beat around the bush hun if I have something to say I will.  I have no intention of putting anyone on an ignore list.  If that&#8217;s how you deal with your issues do as please. I would do a search but I&#8217;m not too fond of balls however I&#8217;d love to see how big your c*ck is.



Oh I'm so sorry. Please allow me to provide you with a comprehensive list of links to my photos on this forum, for you to view at your conveniece. 

What was that you were saying about not being lazy?


----------



## Bifurcator

Alpha said:


> I don't know anyone who went to school for photography who believes that it made them a better photographer.



I followed along on a NYIP course and we both felt it made us "better photographers" - and I was already "self taught". Though I did feel like arguing with the instructors quite often I now chalk that up to being young and foolish.


----------



## Bifurcator

Yemme said:


> Im not too fond of balls however Id love to see how big your c*ck is.



How powerful is your macro?


----------



## slapshot

Yemme said:


> What is it that makes one look down on a novice when every one began at the same place? The bottom.


 
I'm guessing it's peeps who are insecure with themselves. _Some_ insecure people will stomp on others to elevate themselves. It makes them feel good about themselves.

Regarding gearheads: yeah, I can see it - I have Nikon, I have a Canaon, I shoot with a mdedium format, I shoot with a large format, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've seen it in rec hockey with some dude with the latest (and most expensive) gear and not know the game. I've seen it on the golf course with blabbermouth yapping about his prized driver and you're nothing if you don't have one in your bag. *YAWN*

Hold your head high and master the light.



Yemme said:


> Is the industry that jam-packed and no one wants to make room for another photographer?


 
I can't speak of the photog industry, but I do have some experience in the art circles. There are some real asshats who are extremely shallow and are more worried about image and name-dropping than about the actual art. They don't last. You have to realize that in any industry there are people on their way up and others on their way down. Some have endurance, and others, well, they're just a flash in the pan. People can be fickle and you have to decide if you want to be part of a group. Let your work speak for itself.



Yemme said:


> How does one decide whos worthy?


 
You decide if _you're_ worthy. Work on your craft, develop and hone your skills and style. Nothing comes easy.


----------



## Alpha

Bifurcator said:


> How powerful is your macro?



Says the japanese guy.


----------



## Bifurcator

Blackfoot Native American! Thankyou very much!  And we're hung like horses - I can prove it!


----------



## zandman

my head's spinning right now reading the posts yet i wasn't able to read them all, some that hit me in the head,

bif said something about the photographer title, yep, i agree, it's hard to carry a title like if you can't really prove it, i was out today taking pictures of my buds for their thing and he's talkin to someone on the phone, (a model who's in town for vacation and want to have pictures taken) and he was saying i can do it for her, i was like, dude, i'm just a walking sh*t with a camera, i don't want her to expect big things. i do my thing as crap as ell. idk what's gonna happen with that one.

and about being a better photographer if you go to school, i disagree. there are some people that naturally have it in them, perhaps they're the one who are lazy? to read books and mags and stuff but still they do wonders with camera. say they didn't go to photog school and still they're good, there are some that went to photog school but didn't really devoted their time into it and ending up bad.
point is, anybody can be good as long as they know it, deep inside theirself that they can do it. for those who are talented and went to go to school, good for them and like they say, students will be better than their teachers.


----------



## Joves

I have met my fair share of snobs in photography. They are usually the Im special and artistic types. I have nodded my head to some as I pass and, when they wont even acknowledge that my middle finger is used next. I dont tolerate arrogant people well. But then I have had people say Im too freindly, whatever the hell that means.


----------



## sabbath999

Alpha said:


> You wanna see how big my balls are? Use the search function.



I searched and did not find a picture of your balls.

I am good with that, though...


----------



## sabbath999

To answer the original post, yes there are a lot of snobs in photography... there are far more snobs in "internet" photography than in real life.

There are also a lot of snobs in nearly every hobby, it is part of human nature.

It reminds me of something that happened a couple weeks ago. I was at a zoo playing with my new Kodak Z712IS point & shoot, and I saw somebody with a tripod, a D300 and a 70-200 f/2.8 VR lens (identical to the equipment I had in the trunk of my own car in the parking lot, except the tripod which are STUPID things to use at a crowded zoo on a sunday).

I stood next to the guy and out of curiosity I watched him muck around with his camera trying to get a shot of a bird sitting perfectly still... I could tell by the angle he was using, by the aperture and shutter speed on his info display that he didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground... he sees me looking and with this totally pretentious tone he tells me that his camera and lens cost $5 grand (they don't) and that his pictures are going to look "so much better" than my "junky point & shoot."

What a total dweeb.


----------



## Yemme

Alpha said:


> Oh I'm so sorry. Please allow me to provide you with a comprehensive list of links to my photos on this forum, for you to view at your conveniece.
> 
> What was that you were saying about not being lazy?



I&#8217;m not interested in your balls.  Hence I wish not to see your images.  I am however interested in the stallion that lies between your thighs.  That is now my interest&#8230; The TOOL is all I&#8217;m interested in.  I&#8217;m never lazy when it comes to nudes believe me.  So don&#8217;t be shy&#8230; link please?


----------



## mallard

snobs? go to a camera show and see for yourself.....some of the most uptight, anal retentive snoots ive ever seen......they actually stroke and pet their Leica like it was a persian cat or something and they snarl like an angry chihuahua if you get close to their beloved equipment.


----------



## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> Blackfoot Native American! Thankyou very much!  And we're hung like horses - I can prove it!



... Let me behave!


----------



## Yemme

sabbath999 said:


> To answer the original post, yes there are a lot of snobs in photography... there are far more snobs in "internet" photography than in real life.
> 
> There are also a lot of snobs in nearly every hobby, it is part of human nature.
> 
> It reminds me of something that happened a couple weeks ago. I was at a zoo playing with my new Kodak Z712IS point & shoot, and I saw somebody with a tripod, a D300 and a 70-200 f/2.8 VR lens (identical to the equipment I had in the trunk of my own car in the parking lot, except the tripod which are STUPID things to use at a crowded zoo on a sunday).
> 
> I stood next to the guy and out of curiosity I watched him muck around with his camera trying to get a shot of a bird sitting perfectly still... I could tell by the angle he was using, by the aperture and shutter speed on his info display that he didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground... he sees me looking and with this totally pretentious tone he tells me that his camera and lens cost $5 grand (they don't) and that his pictures are going to look "so much better" than my "junky point & shoot."
> 
> What a total dweeb.




Funny story.


----------



## Yemme

Joves said:


> I have met my fair share of snobs in photography. They are usually the Im special and artistic types. I have nodded my head to some as I pass and, when they wont even acknowledge that my middle finger is used next. I dont tolerate arrogant people well. But then I have had people say Im too freindly, whatever the hell that means.



You are friendly but that's a good thing.  You don't close yourself off from people.  You&#8217;re a people person and that's just from having a few chats with you.


----------



## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


>



Love the image.  It's hard to say all photographers are snobs.  That's why I said "most" I don't want to put everyone in the same circle.  I was always taught to treat people how you would like to be treated.  I still treat people with kindness even if they&#8217;re rude.  Oh well!  Thanks for all you help also since I've been here.


----------



## Yemme

mallard said:


> snobs? go to a camera show and see for yourself.....some of the most uptight, anal retentive snoots ive ever seen......they actually stroke and pet their Leica like it was a persian cat or something and they snarl like an angry chihuahua if you get close to their beloved equipment.



:lmao:


----------



## Snyder

Alpha said:


> Says the japanese guy.


 
OWNED!! Ha-ha that was funny.
I try to help some people but I will only give basic advice or what I think should be common knowledge. More advance type of advice and tips I will only share with a select few people that works under me. I have been a snob and will be if the person pisses me off. Some people may think I come off alittle harsh sometimes but im usually just being honest about their work, too many people sugar coat critiques.


----------



## Yemme

Snyder said:


> More advance type of advice and tips I will only share with a select few people that works under me.



Why?


----------



## usayit

mallard said:


> snobs? go to a camera show and see for yourself.....some of the most uptight, anal retentive snoots ive ever seen......they actually stroke and pet their Leica like it was a persian cat or something and they snarl like an angry chihuahua if you get close to their beloved equipment.



Please don't bring Leica shooters into this discussion....  I take offense to that...  I took a very very very long time and two jobs to afford my Leica.  I gave up the idea of owning a fancy car for the pleasure of shooting with a Leica.  I gave up the idea of owning (at least in the U.S.) anything (car, cloths, plasma tv, etc) that are easily recognizable as a status symbol.  As far as I know, there are less than 10 people on the TPF that shoot with Leica... none of which have shown any sign of snobbery.   Most the snobs of Leica years past have pretty much moved on to those fancy DSLRs...  they do exist but not to the extent you might expect.  Years ago, I would agree.. but thats just old generalized thought ....  

I actually see more snobbery from high end Canon (which I also use) and Nikon shooters as they try to be like the pros they see in the media.  I get approached a lot more when holding a 1 series than a Leica.  Most no longer take notice as they just plain can't understand why anyone would use a camera in this day and age that has no fancy metering nor autofocus.


(and the other hand... It is also a sign of Leica loosing presence in market...  bummer)


----------



## Bifurcator

Leica had a presence?


:lmao:


----------



## John_Olexa

I Don't know. I see a lot of talk about snobs. I don't seem run into the snobs very often. Maybe it's just my appearance. I look like a hard -ass (although I'm not) shaved head, mustache, goatee, 33 tattoos. Photographers are always friendly & speak to me.

All the Farm aid concerts & events I have shot with other photographers I can't remember 1 time where anybody was snobby to me. Quite the opposite Actually. Just lucky I guess LOL.


----------



## abraxas

John_Olexa said:


> I Don't know. I see a lot of talk about snobs. I don't seem run into the snobs very often. Maybe it's just my appearance. I look like a hard -ass (although I'm not) shaved head, mustache, goatee, 33 tattoos. Photographers are always friendly & speak to me.
> 
> ...  I have shot with other photographers I can't remember 1 time where anybody was snobby to me. Quite the opposite Actually. Just lucky I guess LOL.



This has pretty much been my experience.  There was one time many years ago I ran into someone I initially thought was snobish.  On reflection I realized I was expecting something for nothing--A pouring of knowledge while light was changing fast.  No time for chatting.  How embarrassing to me!

I've learned that when I work, keep conversations and socializing short and sweet.  It's about shooting, not about how much you can suck.


----------



## Mike_E

--long exhale--

Y'all realize that we just went through close to 90 posts about jerks and our photography was not advanced one whit?


----------



## LWW

usayit said:


> Much more so now than ever.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because there are so many "photographers" since the digital age that many feel the need to set them apart as "better" than everyone else.
> 
> 
> Back in film days, photography was a bit of a hassle.  Cost of film.  Time effort to develope.  Time effort to print.  >>NO INSTANT GRATIFICATION<<.  As such,  only the people whose interest in photography outweighed the "hassle" stuck around long enough to consider themselves photographers.  The "population" was smaller more selective and a larger percentage were truly passionate and could care less about snobbery.... it still existed but to a lesser extent
> 
> The big push for digital in marketing also didn't help.... so much focus on what the equipment can do and not what it can enable a photographer to accomplish.
> 
> Now I"m not saying this is a bad thing.. I think the sudden climb of interest in photography is great and digital technology is a direct result.  I like it when people stop me to ask questions for the sake of learning.  You gotta take the good and bad together.
> 
> That's just my observation...


Well said.

Owning and using a camera by definition makes one a photographer. That being said, there seems to be a large and growing segment of "PHOTOGRAPHERS" who think that buying a new tech camera makes one a "SKILLED PHOTOGRAPHER" and those IMHO are the true snobs in that they mistake hardware for talent.

I have a friend who wanted to be able to take photos they could enlarge and hang on the wall. My rig at the time was an F4s and a N8008s as a backup.

I suggested they buy a used FM or new FM10 and read a few photography books of take a class and I would be glad to take them on a few shoots or go with them to help them learn.

They bought a N8008s and some cheap glass. When they didn't immediately get the results they wanted they bought a Leica M7 RF and several good lenses. When they couldn't figure out how it worked they bought a new D70.

Easily $10K invested and doesn't understand how aperture and shutter speed relate to each other.

If you meet him and photography comes up his first sentence is "I HAVE A LEICA!"

LWW


----------



## LWW

usayit said:


> Please don't bring Leica shooters into this discussion....  I take offense to that...  I took a very very very long time and two jobs to afford my Leica.  I gave up the idea of owning a fancy car for the pleasure of shooting with a Leica.



And I hope you didn't take offense at the preceding post because you have a Leica because it is a luxury that you can afford and use and know how it works.

LWW


----------



## usayit

Bifurcator said:


> Leica had a presence?



You laugh but back in the day Leica was very very popular.  Back when you actually had to practice both the art of photography AND how to leverage those rings and dials we call Aperture and Shutter.

Even Canon's rangefinders of similar vintage were essentially copies of Leica designs...   The market is no longer the same.... feature rich and fancy electronics have long replaced quality workmanship.  I own leica for that experience of owning a camera of sheer workmanship... You may not like the product but it still deserves some respect.  

I think expensive watches are a complete waste of money... but I can appreciate the quality workmanship that goes into a Rolex.


----------



## Alex_B

Mike_E said:


> --long exhale--
> 
> Y'all realize that we just went through close to 90 posts about jerks and our photography was not advanced one whit?



So what? It is horrible weather outside anyway, I have nothing to shoot indoors at the moment ... so this discussion is a good thing


----------



## usayit

LWW said:


> And I hope you didn't take offense at the preceding post because you have a Leica because it is a luxury that you can afford and use and know how it works.
> 
> LWW




Nah.. not too badly 

I know people like that exist...  my issue is when people think "snobbery" and point at Leica shooters with the notion that no snob can ever shoot with a Nikon or Canon.

Here's my feeling....

Ignorant Leica snobs that own Leica literally can't make a picture.....  there is a level of understanding that is required for the price of admission.  Their portfolios are empty.

Ignorant Canon or Nikon shooters can still point and shoot.... fill their portfolios.... and pretend they are photographers.


----------



## usayit

I don't mind participating in this thread... I"m stuck in a cold-dungeon like computer facility working...


----------



## LWW

usayit said:


> Nah.. not too badly
> 
> I know people like that exist...  my issue is when people think "snobbery" and point at Leica shooters with the notion that no snob can ever shoot with a Nikon or Canon.


I have met snobs with Yashicas.

I do appreciate the elegance of a Leica, just never wanted to pay the freight to own one.

My best photography is still done however in manual mode ... and my best best is when I pull one of my vintage F's out.

LWW


----------



## Alpha

snobs


----------



## usayit

Well good morning to you too Alpha...  

eacemrgreen:


----------



## K_Pugh

Leicas, Canons, Nikons.. Meh! What you's want is a old rusty FED with no meter, edges filed down on the back so it doesn't chew up your film, and a lens with a scratch on the front!.. Beats any of your fancy gear 

The Anti-Snob Snob.


----------



## Bifurcator

I never met a Kodak Instamatic snob. I think there should be some. Let's all buy some and then act real snobby about it! 









*Yeah baby, Yeah!*​




Leica range-finder users, eat your hearts out! We got the quality AND the price point!
.


----------



## Bifurcator

LOL http://www.archive.org/details/kodak_instamatic


----------



## K_Pugh

wow, super-snobtastic, eh?

that ad is groovy, i'd buy one!


----------



## Pugs

Bifurcator said:


> LOL http://www.archive.org/details/kodak_instamatic


 
My LORD!  Holy flashbacks Batman!  That was my first camera!  I'd completely forgotten about that thing...

Loved the commercial!


----------



## mallard

usayit said:


> Please don't bring Leica shooters into this discussion....


  but you probably dont pet the dang thing? I was more remembering the aholes at camera shows who wouldnt give the time of day to a student but had their own clique of leica and hasselblad owners.....but dont get me wrong, both of those are iconic in their craftsmanship and quality. I would love to have a Leica (i got a yashica 35GSN off ebay for 17 bucks instead).

why have a Leica? Top quality glass, a solid, unobtrusive and quiet camera (just look what Bresson was able to do with one).



usayit said:


> I actually see more snobbery from high end Canon (which I also use) and Nikon shooters as they try to be like the pros they see in the media.



exactly....i ran into one last week who basically said the only good camera is a canon and that pentax was trash. he said he was a "professional" who mostly did events.

Shelby Lee Adams is also a "professional" who also did events in Appalachia....but he wasnt using a canon

_*You know, a lot of those types fixate on equipment but spend nary a thought on what its used for and the greater context of how it can be used. Consider a bunch of sculptor hacks gathered around Da Vinci's "David" with their backs to it obsessing over what types of mallets and chisels he used.*_


----------



## Mike_E

???!? Everybody knows that the only mallet to use is a Walnut one with beaten bronze banding!

And the handle shouldn't be over 8 inches long!!

I'm waiting delivery of a Zeiss Super Ikonta 533/16 BX but I promise that I'll still speak to you all when it arrives.  


Maybe.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## Bifurcator

Pugs said:


> My LORD!  Holy flashbacks Batman!  That was my first camera!  I'd completely forgotten about that thing...
> 
> Loved the commercial!



I still have 2 or 3 of them somewhere. I dunno what the model numbers are.  I never see film for them any more but occasionally I run into a unopened pack of flash-cubes in the junk bins.


----------



## Yemme

You guys are insane and informative.


----------



## Bifurcator

Yemme said:


> You guys are insane  and informative.



And you don't know the HALF of it!










I purchased this in 1964 - Still got the receipt too! ​




:lmao:


----------



## tron

i hate photo snobs.  i hate stupid people who dont search before posting.  id rather process raw toulene with my teeth than put up with their ****


----------



## Alex_B

I gladly praise the inventor of the ignore list


----------



## Bifurcator

Someone tell me what Alex_B said...   Dang ignore list!  :lmao:


----------



## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> I purchased this in 1964 - Still got the receipt too! ​



1964 ... :shock:


----------



## Alex_B

Bifurcator said:


> Someone tell me what Alex_B said...   Dang ignore list!  :lmao:


----------



## Alex_B

Yemme said:


> 1964 ... :shock:



not everyone is 18, you know


----------



## Bifurcator

I still feel 18 though!


----------



## Yemme

Alex_B said:


> not everyone is 18, you know



I'm sorry... it was just hard to view something that's older than me since i consider myself to be old.


----------



## Bifurcator

I feel that way about Model A Fords sometimes.


----------



## Alex_B

I feel 22 (except on Mondays) and act 18


----------



## Sw1tchFX

tirediron said:


> Are yewwwwwwww talking to meee? Please. Go back and get at lest 10Mp before you even think of breathing my air!




:lmao::lmao:


In my experience, only the bad photographers are the snobs. The good ones, share everything


----------



## mallard

Sw1tchFX said:


> :lmao::lmao:
> 
> 
> In my experience, only the bad photographers are the snobs. The good ones, share everything



_"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius."_ - Arthur Conan Doyle


----------



## epatsellis

usayit said:


> You laugh but back in the day Leica was very very popular.  Back when you actually had to practice both the art of photography AND how to leverage those rings and dials we call Aperture and Shutter.
> 
> Even Canon's rangefinders of similar vintage were essentially copies of Leica designs...   The market is no longer the same.... feature rich and fancy electronics have long replaced quality workmanship.  I own leica for that experience of owning a camera of sheer workmanship... You may not like the product but it still deserves some respect.
> 
> I think expensive watches are a complete waste of money... but I can appreciate the quality workmanship that goes into a Rolex.




So, what next, cameras that focus themselves??? (says the man that actually owns 3, count them 3, auto focus lenses (out of maybe 30 Nikon mount lenses), only one of which gets used, my 300 f4 EDIF, typically manually focused..)

Snobs, yup, run into them all the time. I was shooting at a park/nature reserve about 45 miles away (Allerton Park, in Monticello, IL) last Thanksgiving Eve with my 8x10 camera, some yutz came up to me and started to tell me how his however many megapixel digital SLR was so much better than flim, how he can shoot hundreds of images vs. the handful I can, blah, blah, blah... I politely excused myself and finished shooting, then went in the opposite direction he was going. (pulling out my P&S digicam to scout some future shot ideas....)

One of the reasons I'm really looking forward to taking the 20x24 out more, it's just so frickin huge, people have no idea what to say, much less that it's even a real camera.

I've mentored several people over the last few years, all of whom I've met while out shooting. They were all surprised to still see film being used, all but one has gone from a digisnapper to hardcore film users, there's hope for some, if the desire is there, a true artist will always find the right medium, for some it's digital, for others who are less obsessed with the technology and have the ability to pre-visualise (and have truly learned the capapbilities), film can be far more flexible. Not to mention the uncanny ability of low tech film to capture far more dynamic range, and be generally more tolerant of exposure errors. The few weddings I shoot are still done on film (medium format), I've seen far too many digitally shot weddings where the photographer had to choose between getting detail in the black tux, or the white weddding dress, but not both. Film makes it almost too easy. (I'm not a film snob, I make about 75% of my living shooting digitally, though I use a scan back on a Sinar 4x5, not a DSLR)


erie


----------



## sarallyn

epatsellis said:


> park/nature preserve



that's where I usually run into the snobs. I use film, too...

whenever somebody says something rude to me, I just make a point to get in their shots and pretend not to hear their frantic cries of, "get out of the way!!"

serves the a-holes right.


----------



## Yemme

sarallyn said:


> that's where I usually run into the snobs. I use film, too...
> 
> whenever somebody says something rude to me, I just make a point to get in their shots and pretend not to hear their frantic cries of, "get out of the way!!"
> 
> serves the a-holes right.



  I like your style!


----------



## jayreilly

i am an equipment snob, not to anyone else, just about what i shoot, heck, i don't care what your pictures look like!


----------



## monkeykoder

Yemme said:


> Im not interested in your balls.  Hence I wish not to see your images.  I am however interested in the stallion that lies between your thighs.  That is now my interest The TOOL is all Im interested in.  Im never lazy when it comes to nudes believe me.  So dont be shy link please?



Umm with a statement like that I feel I have to make the A-hole statement (for which I apologize in advance) "Put your money where your mouth is and provide some".  Again apologies to those offended by my statement.


----------



## manaheim

Boy, it's like troll night on TPF.


----------



## mrodgers

This thread is still going on?  I think this is the most ironic thread on this forum.  Snobs talking about snobbery in photography.

Photography has nothing to do with snobbery.  It is directly tied with how rich someone is.  I am not rich, I am quite poor trying to make ends meet with keeping food and shelter for my family.  Thus, I needed a camera for the family and something to play with a bit more than the family snapshots.  I bought a camera that does all the manual settings to learn.  I joined this forum and there is nothing but snobbery here.  New people join, ask questions, and if they aren't using a dSLR, which are very expensive, they get snobby replies.  The same folks give very informative replies when one of the other snobs who have been here a long time and is already known to have the expensive dSLR asks about getting a P&S to carry in their pocket.  The tides turn, as this guy is now "one of us" and he gets the response he is looking for.  

The "you must shoot in RAW if you want to edit" posts are good examples of snobbery.  The fact that every post about editing starts out with "I shoot in RAW" is pure snobbery.  I don't shoot in RAW, I can't shoot in RAW as my camera does not have the capability, yet I can still load up whatever graphics program and edit it just fine.  I change white balance, I change exposure, I change color and levels and use curves and noise reduction....  Yet, it is impossible for me to do so according to most because I don't "shoot RAW."  Stating "I shoot RAW" is implying that one is better than another which is the exact meaning of snobbery.


----------



## monkeykoder

monkeykoder said:


> Umm with a statement like that I feel I have to make the A-hole statement (for which I apologize in advance) "Put your money where your mouth is and provide some".  Again apologies to those offended by my statement.



I think I need to remember that this kind of humor seldom works on the internet.


----------



## manaheim

Bifurcator said:


> And you don't know the HALF of it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I purchased this in 1964 - Still got the receipt too! ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao:


 
Dude, you couldn't afford the _full_ camera? pfft... that means you had no money. Therefore I spit upon you, for eveidently snobbery has everything to do with money...!

:er:

btw, that thing is wicked cute.


----------



## Yemme

monkeykoder said:


> I think I need to remember that this kind of humor seldom works on the internet.



:lmao:

You are talking to Alpha, right?


----------



## Yemme

mrodgers said:


> This thread is still going on?



  I tried to kill it but it won't die.


----------



## monkeykoder

Yemme said:


> :lmao:
> 
> You are talking to Alpha, right?


----------



## Yemme

:hug:: That's so sweet but that was in reference to Alpha... 

I wanna see his TOOL since he doesn't mind showing me other areas.  I'm not lazy when it comes to viewing nudes.  

This forum is hilarious.. good one monkeykoder:greenpbl:


----------



## manaheim

- Are all people with guns murderers?
- Are all people with sports cars hot-rodding punks?
- Are all people who drink alchoholics?
- Are all people who bottle-feed bad parents?
- etc. ad nauseum.

Same answer to all.

"No."

Next?


----------



## monkeykoder

> Laughter is the very best medicine remember that when your appendix bursts next week


One can only hope to amuse people and for some reason I feel like quoting Weird Al...


----------



## monkeykoder

manaheim said:


> - Are all people with guns murderers?
> - Are all people with sports cars hot-rodding punks?
> - Are all people who drink alchoholics?
> - Are all people who bottle-feed bad parents?
> - etc. ad nauseum.
> 
> Same answer to all.
> 
> "No."
> 
> Next?



Correct answers 
No
Yes
No
No
Yes

Sorry you only got 3/5 that is only 60%... :greenpbl:


----------



## Yemme

Be nice monkeykoder at least give him a gold star on his test.  He's nice.


----------



## monkeykoder

Hey if we keep going off topic maybe we can get this thread moved there too.


----------



## Yemme

And we want that because...


----------



## monkeykoder

It amuses me?  You know I think I have the friends I have because they have the same mental conditions I do I was just never diagnosed...


----------



## Yemme

monkeykoder said:


> It amuses me?  You know I think I have the friends I have because they have the same mental conditions I do I was just never diagnosed...



:lmao:...Your on a role.


----------



## monkeykoder

Hey there is nothing wrong with ADD or Bi-polar disorder....


----------



## Raze

Pugs said:


> At a buddy's wedding a few months ago, I had an experience like this.  I was making a point of staying out of the Official Photographer's way by staying out of his sight-lines, not shooting over his shoulder, and definitely not getting in his shots.  While they were doing the posed photos outside of the church after the ceremony, I left to go take pictures of the riverfront.  As far as I was concerned that was his time that he was being paid for.  At the reception I stayed on the fringes to be sure I stayed out of his (and his assistant's) way.
> He had a major issue with me, though.  During the ceremony, he swung by and whispered in my ear that the priest had asked for no flashes so I turned mine off.  A few minutes later I looked over and noticed that he and his assistant were both popping off with their flashes.  During the reception, for the organized events like cutting the cake, first dance, etc... there were several times that he moved from his better vantage point and purposefully came and stood RIGHT in front of me.  I was making a point of standing away from these things with a longer lens to make sure I didn't intrude on the moment or on the Official Photographer and his assistant.
> I chalk it up to a bit of insecurity on his part.  I'm a rank amateur with a more camera than I can competently use at this point.  I was being conscientious about the fact that I was NOT the Official Photographer and that I should not mess with this man's living.
> Oh well... there are insecure a$$hats in every profession/hobby.


I had a similar experience several times only in a "professional" capacity. I used to help my dad out occasionally with weddings (He used to Video them). We've had still photographers do the same things to us, thinking they were more important than anyone else there (even up to the point of the groom stepping up and saying something to a very rude photographer!). Alot seem like they are out on a power trip.
Not all have been like this tho, Dad always tried to blend in the background and keep out of everyones way, but the nice ones would invite him up to stand next to them while doing the official pics so that he to could get the shots the photographer knew the bride and groom would want, after all they were paying for the video too!
(I've even been lucky when I wasn't busy videoing or helping dad, they would show me what they were doing or I'd learn things by assisting them.)


----------



## Yemme

That's cool, people wanting to teach you stuff.  I thought weddings were suppose to be a happy event.


----------



## lngroller

I have not read all the replies but wanted to throw in my 2 cents. There are many equipt. snobs and this has nothing to do with experience or profesionalism. 

I'm sorry to hear about your 2 experiences with pros but let me give you another viewpoint and some advice ( like I know)  LOL  First from say the wedding photogs view. I don't know if you know this person socially and I am assuming you don't. Now I don't shoot weddings but say you own a business shooting weddings and someone you don't know comes up and wants to tag along. you may have the purist motives and be very sincere but from his point of view, if you are there with him/her, your actions words appearance totally reflects on  them. what if you show up in jeans and a T shirt? what if you make some off color remark? remember they don't know you and they would be taking a huge chance letting you be at their job representing them and their reputation. See why it can be a big descision for them?

Instead offer to help with paperwork or something "office related" untill they get to know you I have assitants running to the lab, checking orders, anything that doesn't put them in direct contact with clients until I get to know them and they understand what I am about.

Your sports guy just sounds like he didn't have time, is just an equipt. snob or whatever. but also understand that press passes are usually handed out somewhat carefully and it does take some work and sometime a fair amount of time to arrange for that. (If they are shooting anything above high school sports) What may seem so simple for you may have been asking for an hour of his time just to arrange and again the venue will associate your actions with him/her.

Most pros have been effected by digital. Everyone with a pro like camera thinks they are a pro and the number of people asking for the things you are asking for has increased dramatically. Look at it from their point of view and see how you can make it benifit them to go out of their way for you and take the chance that you won't reflect poorly on them.


----------



## CharlesSmithPhoto

I have noticed that most photogs are pretty cool as long as you don't step on anyone toes  Just kill people with kindness, asking people to teach you.


----------



## 8power

Many professional photographers (excellent ones in both a commercial and subjective sense) would not ridicule or assume poor capabilities/output from another photographer found to be using 'middle'weight equipment.

In more scenarios than i can be bothered to detail here, the difference between photographer A with superfast glass and B with medium glass is superfluous. The same for auto-focus points and marginal increase in sensor dimensions.


----------



## Brian Austin

<-- Camera whore.  I'll shoot anything, in any way, in any format, anywhere, anytime.  Film, digital, Kodak Disk to 8x10 view, whatever.

If you know more than me, I'll ask questions incessantly.  If you know less than me, I'll gab until you get bored and walk away.

I'm easy; just ask my wife.


----------



## Yemme

Brian Austin said:


> <-- Camera whore.  I'll shoot anything, in any way, in any format, anywhere, anytime.  Film, digital, Kodak Disk to 8x10 view, whatever.
> 
> If you know more than me, I'll ask questions incessantly.  If you know less than me, I'll gab until you get bored and walk away.
> 
> I'm easy; just ask my wife.




I love to ask questions.  So much so I think it scares people away.  But that's me ... chatty chatty and I love to learn new stuff.


----------



## PhilGarber

skieur said:


> Many enthusiasts and pros have done their homework.  They have joined camera clubs, read a considerable number of books, subscribed to photo magazines, took courses, learned from others etc.  Most of us were sufficiently realistic to realize that we were not instant photographers and that a lot of hard work was involved to come even close to quality work.  Even after several years or decades of experience most of us were still willing to listen to valid comments and criticism.You cannot imagine how negative our attitude is toward newbies with arrogant philosophies about the nature of photography and photographic art based on NO study, and NO experience.  Newbies asking the MOST BASIC of questions, because they have not done any reading of anything about photography whatsoever, even the camera manual.  Newbies who think that there are no criteria or "rules" for judging the quality of photographic work and that their views are just as valid as someone with several years of study and experience.  Newbies who may want to be spoon fed, but are really not willing to put forth much of an effort to really learn about photography.  Newbies who don't realize that personal opinion about a photo is just that and varies considerably from the critique of someone with lots of experience who knows how photos are professionally judged.Why should dedicated pros and enthusiasts tolerate what often amounts to laziness, lack of effort to learn, and arrogant stupidity by a growing number of newbies that express those traits?skieur



Ohh.. err.. That would have been me a couple of months ago..


----------



## Yemme

Uh-Oh... don't be blue... Didn't we kill this thread.:scratch:


----------



## iflynething

Anyone seen the "fashion photographer" on the new season of Survivor. Alex I think is his name. He has the snob attitude.

~Michael~


----------



## Flur

Other than the off-topic drifts, this thread has left me sad.  All these experienced photographers and they don't want to help noobs because no one helped them.  That's such a shame.


----------



## iflynething

I'm willing to help. Definately. Just ask. That's why I'm here. I usually go straight for the most recent threads on the home page (mainly because a high percentage of those are from newer photographers)

~Michael~


----------



## Hawaii Five-O

Oh the title didn't say photographers are snots?:er: Once I had a cold and was  taking  a picture ands there was snot running down my nose , because I was concentrating and didin't realize it.


----------



## Yemme

Hawaii Five-O said:


> Oh the title didn't say photographers are snots?:er: Once I had a cold was was  taking  a picture ands there was snot running down my nose , because I was concentrating and didin't realize it.




You are so special  ...:hug::


----------



## JerryPH

Flur said:


> Other than the off-topic drifts, this thread has left me sad.  All these experienced photographers and they don't want to help noobs because no one helped them.  That's such a shame.



I'm a newb, but let me tell you something... NO ONE will further your edification at this level faster than YOU YOURSELF at this point.

There comes a point where I can see personal interaction being needed, but that comes waaaaaaaay past the intermediate (possibly even the advanced), level.

A lot of newbs love the spoon feeding method, and that makes ME sad.  The things that I take the time to learn myself, I remember.  I worked for them, somtimes very intensely,  and they come to me at the right moments.  Things that are handed to me have less of a psychological impact and are easier forgotten or have a lower value.  That is just basic human psychology.

Don't be afraid to ask for help.  The people who want to will, the ones that don't... what do you care if they do or do not?  Your growth as a photographer does NOT depend on anyone else BUT you!

As far as being a camera snob?  Nope, I can just as easily talk to someone with a 350D or 5DMkII or D3 as I can someone with a Sony Cybershot 1 MP.  For me, it is about photography, not the person, nor their equipment.  I do have a friend who is Mr Canon, and I never realized how much of a camera snob he was until I suggested that we go shoot together one day and he made a snide comment about him not being able to because I owned a Nikon.  Uhhmm, yeah right... guess we're NOT going shooting, but this time it is by my decision... lol.


----------



## Artograph

Dang, :er: here I thought "noobs" were welcome to ask questions and mingle with the snobs, er, ...ummmm ....."non-noobs". :blushing:





















_*Just kidding!!*_ I have found many _wonderful  _"non-noobs" here!!!


----------



## Sabin

So then what's the point of the forum? Aren't we all here to learn from each other? It seem kind of stupid to tell us noobs to use every source of information we can get, except from you. I've got to tell you that it really grates that just because I ask a question it's assumed that I don't do any research on my own.

I guess that only leaves showing off left.


----------



## usayit

remember folks... a discussion (the intended purpose of this forum) is a two way street.  

I believe Jerry is trying to make that distinction from "spoon feeding" which in of itself is a form of laziness (ask and expect an answer).  Providing direction is very different from  spoon feeding answers and definitely not being snobby.


----------



## JerryPH

Sabin said:


> So then what's the point of the forum? Aren't we all here to learn from each other? It seem kind of stupid to tell us noobs to use every source of information we can get, except from you.



Now if photography was something new that just came out a few months ago, I would agree... but you see, photography has been around for CENTURIES and there are very few new concepts that have come out over the last 40-50 years.  That means that there is an INCREDIBLE amount of info out there already just waiting for you to take in... and all it takes is a little work on your end.  The instant gratification of asking questions here, that have very likely been asked and answered hundreds of times here and elsewhere  (but no one knows, because they did not search beforehand), means nothing?    Just look at how many times the old "what is the best camera for me..." thread is repeated?

I am not targeting you, and then even I too ask questions now and then (though I sincerely do not remember the last time I needed to ask anything... I researched and found answers faster than it took for me to make a post here, and wait for people to respond, which I find incredibly lazy, hence the spoon feeding comments).

The answer's already out there waiting for you... why ask BEFORE trying to find the answer yourself?  The answer is simple... laziness.



Sabin said:


> I've got to tell you that it really grates that just because I ask a question it's assumed that I don't do any research on my own.  I guess that only leaves showing off left.



No one said you asked without looking, I did not specifically say "hey Sabin, why are you always asking the same questions over and over?" ... but 95% of the questions here *are* already answered and nothing more than a simple search away... and if not here... no further away than an internet search away at most.  Why is there a need to repost the same questions over and over?  Why is there a need to ask without doing a good search?

It used to bug me that in the beginner's section I saw the same 10-20 questions over and over... no prob, I stopped going there.  Now I see those same questions being asked in other sections, and when it is pointed out, they answer with stupidities like "well I want the experienced people to ask, not beginners, so I am asking elsewhere...".  That logic drives me nuts, because there is definite proof that many experienced people post and read the beginners section regularly, so why do I now not only get to see the same questions in one section, but get the freebie of getting to read those same questions in other areas as well? And what is stopping them from doing a search??? 

I call this an exercise in futility, so, all I do is shake my head and move on.  

Another thing that I have been doing lately is responding to a question WITH a question... with the hopes that it sets off a light-bulb off for the OP.  Some poeple REALLY hate that, but they are missing the whole point and are only again looking for instant gratification.  Yes... those people will make wonderful photographers... maybe one day, after everyone answers their questions for them.


----------



## mrodgers

Does no one on this forum belong to any other forum or have any other hobbies and interests besides photography?

What the recent discussion that Jerry has just posted about has nothing to do with photography, photographers, or this forum in particular.  It has to do with the general population abroad.

From RC flight forums....
- What plane should I get to start?
- I'm new, recommend a plane for me
- What radio should I get?
- Should I use lipo batteries or NiMH?
- How do I charge batteries?
- Is this a good plane for a beginner?
- etc, etc, etc.

From the flight simulator forums....
- Sticky thread:  How to fly online.  Inside it describes step by step how to open router ports, join the server, and how to get the password.
Below the sticky thread is the following...
- How do I fly online?
- How do I join the servers?
- Can't fly online, what is the password?
- I can't connect to the servers! (you have to open ports, which is why it's in the sticky thread...)
- etc, etc, etc

From my racing simulator forum....
- Sticky thread:  I am banned, what do I do?  Inside it is explained that servers are privately owned and there is nothing the developers of the program or the forum community can do.  It explains that most server owners have their own forums and you should make contact on those forums.

That sticky thread is now 851 threads long of people posting in the sticky complaining that they've been banned from a server and how BS it is.  Under the sticky thread is countless new threads started with titles such as, "I've been banned at the XXXXX server!"

We have an improvements section of the racing sim forum.  In this section is a sticky entitled "Suggested Improvements Log (Read before starting a new thread!)"  It is a very nice list of all the suggestions that have come up in the past 5 years worth of development.  Yet below the sticky thread are countless threads started with the most basic suggestions as if no one in 5 years had ever thought of the current temporary damage model being improved on for example.

Photography, RC flying, Flight simming, and sim racing are just  a few of my hobbies that I frequent the forums for.  None of these hobbies are new and yet people still ask the same old questions over an over and over again as if whatever forum they are on has just been thought of last week.  You can only have so many people ask "Is the D40 a good camera for me to start with" or "Is the Multiplex EasyStar a good plane to start flying RC with" before it gets tiresome answering the same old question over an over an over again.

Most of the repetitive questions have already been asked multiple times just on the front page of the forum section.  All you have to do is look.  On my racing forum, it is double bad because when you start a new thread and type in the title of the thread, it automatically searches the forum for a similar topic and displays a list.  It then says in a popup window, 'Before posting, check the existing suggested threads that may answer your question.'  Yet, even though a list of 10 suggested threads about the Logitech MOMO Racing steering wheel and pedal controller pops up, people still post the thread asking why their pedals are not working correctly.

It is not a photography or photographer problem at all.  It is a human society problem and the problem lies not on those with the knowledge and experience, but with those who are new and can't be bothered to open their eyes and use their brains that their question just may not be all that original that no one else in the world has thought of it before.


----------



## Joves

My other forums are trade forums, astronomy and, more irreverant forums. I pump concrete for a living so I like to help newbies in the biz. It can be a rough job at times. In the astronomy forums I tend to stay away from the posts asking what telescope to buy because. there are usually 20 of the threads on the page. I go to the other froum to blow off steam. It is fun to not have to be in any way shape or form serious.


----------



## Sw1tchFX

I don't know if i'm a snob, but I do know i'm "Captain Obvious". 

There are other things that really annoy me, but I don't need to mention them here (don't worry, it's not about this board  )


----------



## Sabin

I agree with most of your post, but I do have something to say about this part.



JerryPH said:


> No one said you asked without looking, I did not specifically say "hey Sabin, why are you always asking the same questions over and over?" ... but 95% of the questions here *are* already answered and nothing more than a simple search away... and if not here... no further away than an internet search away at most. Why is there a need to repost the same questions over and over? Why is there a need to ask without doing a good search?


 
The other day I asked if anybody could point me towards some good sources on a specific topic after making it clear that I had already done some (and by some I mean several hours) searching on my own and was having a hard time finding what I needed.  The first response was a link to google and my local libraries.

Yes, it's very possible that I missed things while doing my searches, but it was not for lack of trying.  I think that many people who are experienced in a certain field forget what it's like to try and figure it out without any help.  We simply don't know where to look.  The questions that are easy for you to find answers like "what camera should I buy" don't come easy to someone who doesn't know where to look.  Hundreds of websites come up, and you have no idea which ones are scams and which ones are legitimate.  You don't understand the wording, so the reviews are unintelligible gibberish.  The only thing you can go off of is "This camera was fun and easy to use."  Even if you do understand the wording and the concepts behind them, you still don't know how that applies to you.  "It's a 300mm lens?  I know that means it zooms in pretty far, but how far is pretty far?  What kind of pictures can I get with that lens?  Can I get a bird in flight?  Can I get a close-up of somebody's face from across the street?  Am I even going to be able to understand how to use this?  Is this camera body really so complicated and hard to build that they can charge the same amount for it as what you would pay for a nice new bullet bike?"  It's really hard to make an informed decision, even with the proper knowledge, if you don't have any experience to compare it to.  

Yes, there are lazy people who come onto forums hoping that the people online will spoon feed them.  There's a lot of them.  Unfortunately it's very easy to confuse the people who just aren't understanding with the people who aren't trying.  When you don't know anything it's very easy to overlook the obvious, like a using a different wording on your search.


----------



## mrodgers

Sabin said:


> Yes, it's very possible that I missed things while doing my searches, but it was not for lack of trying. I think that many people who are experienced in a certain field forget what it's like to try and figure it out without any help. We simply don't know where to look. The questions that are easy for you to find answers like "what camera should I buy" don't come easy to someone who doesn't know where to look. Hundreds of websites come up, and you have no idea which ones are scams and which ones are legitimate. You don't understand the wording, so the reviews are unintelligible gibberish. The only thing you can go off of is "This camera was fun and easy to use." Even if you do understand the wording and the concepts behind them, you still don't know how that applies to you. "It's a 300mm lens? I know that means it zooms in pretty far, but how far is pretty far? What kind of pictures can I get with that lens? Can I get a bird in flight? Can I get a close-up of somebody's face from across the street? Am I even going to be able to understand how to use this? Is this camera body really so complicated and hard to build that they can charge the same amount for it as what you would pay for a nice new bullet bike?" It's really hard to make an informed decision, even with the proper knowledge, if you don't have any experience to compare it to.


Sabin makes a very good point right here.  Sometimes you can have too much information that it just doesn't make sense.  Asking a specific question on the forum and getting the information post to post can sometimes be much easier and more understanding than reading all the reviews and info out there in the world just waiting for a new person to be confused even more.

Recently I read a question from someone.  It was something like, _"I have the xx-xx mm lens.  How far away does that zoom?  What X zoom is that?"_  Clearly, this was asked by someone who was new to interchangable lenses and coming from a point and shoot camera that always describes zoom in X factor.  The response he got was _"55 divided by 18 = 3.05"_

Essentially, that did technically answer his question.  But as it was clear from the context that the person asking the question did not understand the relation between the mm focal length of lenses and the x factor description of P&S cameras, a bit of explaination of where the x factor comes from would have helped far more than just leaving it as "it is 3.05".


----------



## Bifurcator

Yemme said:


> Didn't we kill this thread.:scratch:



Hahaha, you're new at this game I can tell.  Threads like this never die. Just when you think you've seen the last post and all possible angles have been examined someone will post: "I can't be arsed to read all these posts but my opinion is..." followed by many flowing paragraphs that essentially restate thread replies 2 through 5.


----------



## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> Hahaha, you're new at this game I can tell.  Threads like this never die. Just when you think you've seen the last post and all possible angles have been examined someone will post: "I can't be arsed to read all these posts but my opinion is..." followed by many flowing paragraphs that essentially restate thread replies 2 through 5.



 ..... No really I thought we killed it along with the sex thread.  Guess not.:meh:


----------



## Jedo_03

Garbz said:


> I was about to post something similar but narrow down the spectrum.
> 
> I add to your question: "Are all Canon 5D owners totally unlikeable ****ers?" Ok admittedly the ones on this forum are nice
> 
> But our photo club was going just fine till along came 2 5D owners, who spend more time masturbating over the fact that they've had a full frame sensor for x number of years, and that the rest of the Canon crowd are better than Nikon simply because Canon manufactured a full frame sensor for longer and rant rant rant. I also liked the one where he said Nikon was useless because Canon has f/1.2 lenses in it's lineup. I pulled out my Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 and kindly pointed out that Nikon made one two, and made one first.
> 
> In reality I should have just used the large front element to break his nose.


 
Ha Ha Garbz...
Reminds of the one about a guy walking through a park and come upon a group of photographers - 8 of them wearing Canon 5Ds with l-o-n-g FAT white lenses, and another guy with a beat-up looking D20...
"What's going on here?" says the guy to the D20 owner...
"Oh, it's the Canon Club's Anniversary" says the D20 guy. "And they asked me to take their photo's...."
Jedo


----------



## polymoog

Wow that took a long time to read through ... yes I did read all 4 pages of posts ;-) I feel bad now as well, have only recently reg myself here, and when I post my pics I have been asking for C&C - but not so I can get some short cut to the "perfect shot" - have been learning and testing by myself for 2 years now, reading stuff, looking at other peoeple's pics (not to copy, more to appreciate but also to learn), testing different settings in my camera. 

So sorry if people think I am trying to leech off other people's experience, that's not the intention at all.

BTW, I always shoot RAW purely because I can get much better picture quality than with in camera jpeg - but that's my camera. As I read in a book somewhere "RAW is a file format, not a religion" ;-)

And I think the reason why people ignore others' advice on e.g. which camera/lens/RC plane to buy, is because they have already decided which one they want before they post, and just want to hear some good reviews about their chosen product!


----------



## Yemme

polymoog said:


> Wow that took a long time to read through ... yes I did read all 4 pages of posts ;-)


 

Yay... good for you.  I need to be more like you, I guess I'm the "L" word when it comes to long posts... Um... if you find the time ahhh try and read this one tell me how far you make it.  I know you can do it... It's obvious you have patience.  Get a work out and go for it!


http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106308&goto=newpost


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## mrcrassic

Hi. My name is Crassic, and I'm a snob.

Go back to work. f/8, and keep it there.


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## Yemme

:greenpbl:Nice to meet you Mr. Crassic...  Who would have thought a snob lived in Brooklyn.


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## Alpha

Brooklyn snobs keep it real in affordable brownstones.


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## Yemme

This is true!  And also in Northern Manhattan.


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## Bifurcator

Japanese snobs do it in the bamboo. :thumbup:


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## Joves

Yemme said:


> ..... No really I thought we killed it along with the sex thread. Guess not.:meh:


Where was the sex threa I must have missed that one.


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## Yemme

You remember Joves... It was about sex in photography.  It wouldn't die  either.


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## 2oo6niterod

well.. i've been entertained with all the BS, seems like i'm at home. anyway, i encountered a few photographers for drag racing mags and they were very helpful.


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## Photonic Harmony

I think looking down at people that are new to something says more about the person, I don't think it has much to do with the subject of photography.

I think on the whole amateur and professional photographers alike are generally good people.  You get the odd elitist that's had far too many overstated compliments, and it's gone to their heads.

On the whole I've found most real photographers to be good people willing to share their knowledge.


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## Yemme

2oo6niterod said:


> well.. i've been entertained with all the BS, seems like i'm at home.




 Doesn't it... We are all just silly....:greenpbl:


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## Yemme

Bifurcator said:


> Japanese snobs do it in the bamboo. :thumbup:




What do the Indians do it in?


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## motojoe

Being a noob here, it's funny to see that this exact same discussion has taken place on a bunch of other forums that I'm on! Another member mentioned the same noob threads on things that you can easily search for, but go to any moto forum and substitute "Leica" for "Ducati" and you'll see the same accuastions of snobbery and elitism!


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## Alpha

I don't have a problem with newcomers at all. It's the inexplicably self-righteous ones that bug me.

For example, someone will post a photograph. Something to the effect of the following exhange will occur:
Random noob: I think it looks great. I might try playing with the curves, and increasing the contrast.
Me: Looks great? There's no shadow detail at all, it's very gray. The subject is pretty uninteresting. And "Playing with the curves" doesn't mean anything.
Random Noob: Why are you so mean? I'm just a noob too. We're all here trying to learn! 

*then WHY ARE YOU GIVING ADVICE????*

Blind leading the blind.


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## Bifurcator

Yemme said:


> What do the Indians do it in?



We're good - we do it in the RAW.


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## usayit

Alpha said:


> Blind leading the blind.



Isn't that the nature of internet forums?  A place that requires no credentials/experience to register and participate... a place of anonymity...  a place that doesn't even require a specific age...

This is more like the neighborhood bar or cafe where people just share ideas and thoughts.  If that thought is "geez.. nice photo" or "I didn't find anything interesting about the subject" or "composition is not pleasing" or "what intent"  it doesn't matter.... they all carry the same weight.  Yes, I even don't like those with big egos and self-righteous but that's the nature .  

Honestly... if you guys want serious photographic C&C this is not the place...  I am glad this isn't the place.   At times I find a lot more enjoyment over sharing a glass of beer (so to speak) and talking about photography rather than standing in front of a panel of judges taking everything so seriously.

Really... big well known photographers who have their art work critiqued in their harsh and competitive world are not the crowd that will participate here for feed back at the level they require.

We are all kidding ourselves if that is the level at which we expect the TPF to operate at.

Yes... some are snobby and some are not.  Some are new some are experienced.  Some have attitudes some don't... but it wouldn't be the TPF without everyone.


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## Bifurcator

I like your intentions there usayit, but there are actually individuals qualified both naturally/systemically and certified by some outer body, to critique images here.  There aren't too many people that participate in forums that don't have a big ego and a somewhat self-righteous attitude - including you and I. We can add, subtract, or balance the weight of any one or several critiques by looking up the individual's abilities and credentials. We have control over the level that TPF operates at by how we elicit responses and by what criteria we qualify those offering critique. 

I second the notion that TPF wouldn't be the same cool place without all levels and walks participating! :thumbup:  It looks like the mods here know that as well and are very lenient/tolerant to different types and of rule application. This is why I'm here and not elsewhere.


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## usayit

Oh I agree... Bifurcator

I didn't mean that there are no qualified people here to give serious critiques.  What I meant is that there is a mix of those who are not and those that are... I think it adds to the TPF not subtracts.  What is important to know is that here in the TPF...  everyone is a level playing field and everyone has equal input.  It is the poster that decides what to absorb and dismiss..


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## Timbo1961

Back in the day before W&Ks, I seem to remember that "Noobs" were more interested in your gear than in learning anything. I had a mentor of mine who carried two or three bodies and used black electrical tape to cover the "Nikon" on the front of the camera.... he seemed to think it helped to... "keep the geeks away".
I have helped others in the past and would like to think that I am not a snob, but I think we would all agree that if interference is possibly going to affect your income, then you pretty much want to be left to your work.
... All depends on the person I guess.
T


----------



## Overread

usayit said:


> Oh I agree... Bifurcator
> 
> I didn't mean that there are no qualified people here to give serious critiques. What I meant is that there is a mix of those who are not and those that are... I think it adds to the TPF not subtracts. What is important to know is that here in the TPF... everyone is a level playing field and everyone has equal input. It is the poster that decides what to absorb and dismiss..


 
agreed - forums are just big online photography clubs. We can all have our say and our viewpoint and in the end we all share a common interest at the end of the day.
The important thing is not that every post is perfectly correct, but that the members that do know their stuff are willing to take the time to not only post, but to also correct when they see mistakes - I doubt that there are any/many people on forums who delibratly post bad advice (and get to stick around) so any correction is helping them as well as the OP.

Of course in the end we all have to addup our views in different peoples opinions and as to whether they are relevant to us  - this is no different to comments from anybody - from the pro to your mother.


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## guitarkid

YES.  There are other professions that require hours of education and practice, etc., as well.  This excuse should have nothing to do with subserviant treatment.  From all the career forums and people i have met, photographers are the most snobby, even when compared to attorneys, as i work with them daily.


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## Yemme

Whoa .... say it ain't so!   


*The thread has come back to life, thanks guitar kid*


----------



## surfhawaiiwaves

Once the amateur's naive approach and humble willingness to learn fades away, the creative spirit of good photography dies with it. Every professional should remain always in his heart an amateur.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



Alfred Eisenstaedt quote


----------



## Dagwood56

skieur said:


> Many enthusiasts and pros have done their homework. They have joined camera clubs, read a considerable number of books, subscribed to photo magazines, took courses, learned from others etc. Most of us were sufficiently realistic to realize that we were not instant photographers and that a lot of hard work was involved to come even close to quality work. Even after several years or decades of experience most of us were still willing to listen to valid comments and criticism.You cannot imagine how negative our attitude is toward newbies with arrogant philosophies about the nature of photography and photographic art based on NO study, and NO experience. Newbies asking the MOST BASIC of questions, because they have not done any reading of anything about photography whatsoever, even the camera manual. Newbies who think that there are no criteria or "rules" for judging the quality of photographic work and that their views are just as valid as someone with several years of study and experience. Newbies who may want to be spoon fed, but are really not willing to put forth much of an effort to really learn about photography. Newbies who don't realize that personal opinion about a photo is just that and varies considerably from the critique of someone with lots of experience who knows how photos are professionally judged.Why should dedicated pros and enthusiasts tolerate what often amounts to laziness, lack of effort to learn, and arrogant stupidity by a growing number of newbies that express those traits?skieur


 
:thumbup: I agree. I'm a rusty hobbiest who came here for some brush up and I know it bugs me when people who have the photo experience of only having used their cell phone to snap photos, come here and begin to critique more advanced photographers photos, or they are questioning which DSLR they should purchase because they got one good in focus cell phone shot and decided they liked the rush and go headlong toward a camera purchase, when they clearly have no idea what real photography is about!

I'm basically self taught. I had an interest in art and it moved to photography when I got a kodak instamatic for Christmas as a kid. I read lots of books when I started out and had a friend who was quite good who gave me many pointers. I read more books and susbscribed to magazines. I moved on to use my fathers Agfa Isolette camera so I could learn shutter speed and aperture and then finally bought my first SLR [Yashica] in the early '70's. I then learned to develop and print film in a make shift dakroom and later tried my hand at my own business, but my idea [pet portraits] was a bit before its time. In the late 80's I bought a Minolta Maxxum 7000 within days of it hitting retail stores. And I continued trying new ways to take the perfect shot - as i am still doing today and think all seasoned photographers continue to do.

I have and still do ask some stupid questions here, as a long break from shooting, and all the fast paced technological advances over the past few years, my age & health issues just totally blew me away, but it seems to me that too many people these days get a DSLR and think - "I own a $1000 camera with several expensive lenses so now I can take good photos" and it just doesn't work that way!

Phew! felt good to get that off my chest.


----------



## stsinner

From my experience, Yes.  This thread should tell you all you need to know about your original question..  The secret is to stroke their egos a little bit before asking a question-that sometimes gets you some really valuable info out of them.  It's sad that it has to be that way, but you can't change people.  There are some here that are really nice and forthcoming with information and help, such as Corinna, BigMike and others, but many others take great pride in belittling the newbie just looking for a quick answer..  Instead of feeling flattered and taking the chance to impart some of their knowledge to you, many will slam you for not doing the research yourself..  Myself, I love sharing any knowledge I know, but sadly, some people are knowledge hoarders-we've all seen them in our workplace-the people that learn some detailed info about a machine or process but won't divulge it thinking it provides that little bit of job security..  They usually end up getting fired by me for not being a team player..  Just keep asking your questions, because you will almost always get good answers by the personable members..  Then you can weed out the rude ones and put them on ignore, since they almost never offer anything worthwhile.  The ignore button is a hard choice, though, because even the most rude members will sometimes have their coffee or Prozac at just the right time and offer a nugget that you will really benefit from, and you say, "Holy Crap!!  He's actually being friendly??"


----------



## stsinner

JerryPH said:


> Another thing that I have been doing lately is responding to a question WITH a question... with the hopes that it sets off a light-bulb off for the OP.  Some poeple REALLY hate that, but they are missing the whole point and are only again looking for instant gratification.  Yes... those people will make wonderful photographers... maybe one day, after everyone answers their questions for them.



  Hey Jerry, if it's all been said and done before elsewhere and there is such a plethora of information available online if only people weren't so lazy, then what, exactly, is the purpose of this evidently ridiculously redundant forum?


----------



## abraxas

stsinner said:


> From my experience, Yes.  This thread should tell you all you need to know about your original question..  The secret is to stroke their egos a little bit before asking a question-that sometimes gets you some really valuable info out of them.  ... _blah, blah, blah ..._



What you're describing is looking for something for nothing; a user, niether a contributor or collaborator, sycophantic and shallow. My suppositon is you never get anything of "value", an empty quest. Do you actually think what you believe to be "snobs", are just those that see through this thinly-veiled scavenging for what it is?


----------



## stsinner

abraxas said:


> What you're describing is looking for something for nothing; a user, niether a contributor or collaborator, sycophantic and shallow. My suppositon is you never get anything of "value", an empty quest. Do you actually think what you believe to be "snobs", are just those that see through this thinly-veiled scavenging for what it is?



Wow, and I actually really like you...   Damn, I guess I had you wrong..  

No, what I see is that kids don't read anymore-I don't need to tell you that-studies tell us that..  They go online, they play video games, etc...  They don't pick up books.  With the rates of teenage pregnancy and STD transmission, why would you ever do anything to stifle the desire of a dorky teenager to shoot up his local skate park or forest or lake setting?  Getting and keeping them behind the view finder of a camera is the least we can do to help them along..  It's so damned wholesome that I don't care why or how prematurely they're asking the questions, I think they should be answered and encouraged...  Photography is a wholesome hobby, and I think we should make the onset enjoyable... 

Most of the Noobs that come in here saying, "What kind of camera is right for me?" are young, even admitting as much..

Why would I, if I were a seasoned professional, look at a post from one of these kids with a real keen interest in photography and say, "Hey you lazy kid, why don't you go learn the hobby like the rest of us!! "  Talk about sycophantic!  Everything I learn is something that somebody else already knows-I don't own the knowledge, and it was probably given to me by someone who just wanted to help me..  So how could I deny someone a dignified answer to their question based on my assumption that they haven't done enough work on their own to try to answer their own question?  If so, then just why, exactly, am I here?  To have my ego stroked?  To insult others?  

This is a discussion forum-you come here to discuss photography, not judge people for their effort..  Sure, you can judge their work if they ask for it, but to criticize anyone for asking a question is immature at best and most likely just hateful.  There is not stupid question.  If you don't want to help, then you should never look at the beginner forum because there will be a lot of noob questions asked, and who are you to say that someone doesn't have the right to ask that question just because it's been asked and answered countless times before?  Is it in the rules that you must search for every single question that you may have and determine that it's not been asked before before asking?  No.  I've seen the same questions asked 50 different times since I became a member in October, and I just think back to my early days when I held a nice camera in my hands and had no idea how it worked..   The idea of real-time answers from experienced photographers in a forum was so much more appealing to me than reading a book that had so much more in it than the question that I wanted answered..  

I happen to be a reader and purchaser of books, but I don't hold it against those who aren't.  We lilve in a digital world, and there is no push for kids to read today..  Everything is electronic and the thirst for knowledge is quenched immediately..  

I think that if you are annoyed by innocent questions by people who would rather interact with humans than a book, you shouldn't be offering advice, because that's a rude and pretentious attitude..  

How about we just help them learn the hobby and stop acting so insecure about them actually finding out that what we do isn't rocket science or alchemy....   What's wrong with asking any question, as long as it's an honest quest for knowledge?  

I'm sure that, just like me, the new people aren't coming here and asking questions just to get under your skin-maybe you'd be surprised at just how appreciative they are for the help.. Maybe you can answer their newbie question and then also recommend a good book, but respectfully, instead of saying, "A simple search would have gotten you that answer," or, "Let me Google that for you.."  

Friendly is the key...  And why not?  You 5k+ post counters are like mentors to these young kids..  They look up to you, and when you are just an a-hole to the and tell them go read a book or take a class, it just dims their fire a little bit..  Who wants to work side-by-side with people so rude?  Why not just help out?  Who the hell cares if they haven't done their due diligence?  If that bothers you, I have to ask, just why, exactly, are you here?


----------



## abraxas

stsinner said:


> Wow, and I actually really like you...   Damn, I guess I had you wrong..



Certainly you're just being nice because you want something.

My response has nothing to do with anything other than your piss-poor attitude towards photographers.


----------



## KvnO

I think this deserves repeating:



sabbath999 said:


> To answer the original post, yes there are a lot of snobs in photography... there are far more snobs in "internet" photography than in real life.
> 
> There are also a lot of snobs in nearly every hobby, it is part of human nature.



No matter where you go or what you do, you're going to find someone with a higher opinion of themselves than they have of you.  It's nothing to get worked up over (and probably not not worth discussing for 10 pages in a forum).  

Someone wasn't as friendly as you'd hoped?  That's life.  Get over it and move on.

I probably come across as a snob to some, but that's part of my personality.  I'm an introvert, I can't help it if I don't feel all "buddy-buddy" with some stranger wanting to chat about gear or whatever.  That's why I enjoy the forums.  I like to help people, but don't always feel comfortable doing it in person, one-on-one.


----------



## stsinner

abraxas said:


> Certainly you're just being nice because you want something.
> 
> My response has nothing to do with anything other than your piss-poor attitude towards photographers.



I don't have a piss-poor attitude towards photographers-I have a piss-poor attitude toward photographers with a piss-poor attitude.


----------



## mrodgers

Stsinner, in my opinion, very well said in post 198.  Good job.


----------



## Overread

First
Photo Biz Startup | Photography Business Blog | Starting a Photography Business

second:
I make a point to try and remain civil and polite with all the people I meet - I won't claim that I manage to remain thus every time, I am human and I have flaws - but I try my best. If you are polite and well mannered to others you can expect the same back - if you are rude and insulting then you can also expect the same back,


----------



## stsinner

mrodgers said:


> Stsinner, in my opinion, very well said in post 198.  Good job.



Thank you.  It's unfortunate that abraxas took as he did because I really enjoy his work and value his opinion..  He's not been rude once, to me, anyway, so I don't know why he took my post so cross.



Overread said:


> First
> Photo Biz Startup | Photography Business Blog | Starting a Photography Business
> 
> second:
> I make a point to try and remain civil and polite with all the people I meet - I won't claim that I manage to remain thus every time, I am human and I have flaws - but I try my best. If you are polite and well mannered to others you can expect the same back - if you are rude and insulting then you can also expect the same back,



That's more than fair and all anyone can ask..  I know I always benefit from your criticism and comments.


----------



## Alleh Lindquist

I can&#8217;t believe I just shifted through all 11 pages of this thread rather than finishing up the movie I was watching. 

I am sure there are some really talented professional photographers out there that are snobs but I haven&#8217;t met one yet. All of the pros I now are very cool and friendly people. I think you would have to be pretty self important to call a professional a snob for not having time to answer stupid amateur questions. I think it&#8217;s probably more common to find snobs in the amateur/wannabe pro category. People who want to be pros and think they can do everything better than the guys getting paid to do it. Success comes from hard work and integrity with a dash of talent and a passion to learn.

Oh and thanks for posting a link to my blog Overread.


----------



## stsinner

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I think you would have to be pretty self important to call a professional a snob for not having time to answer stupid amateur questions.



But the rude ones apparently have time to post a nasty remark like, "That question has been asked before if you just search for it..."  That's rude, I don't care if you make a million dollars a week with your photography-it's no excuse to be rude..   Nobody is saying anything about the people who don't respond, but if someone takes the time to respond in rude fashion, why respond at all..  I think that's the point.  

Too busy to answer questions...  That's rich-so now all of a sudden photography is the busy profession?  No time to spend in forums that you registered in to discuss photography answering questions asked by the great unwashed..  "I don't have time for your stupid amateur questions, and if you can't understand that, then you're pretty self-important..."   That's one hell of a poor attitude.  

Maybe you should withdraw and rephrase.. Fortunately, this attitude is very much the minority on here from what I've experienced.


----------



## Yemme

Alleh Lindquist said:


> I cant believe I just shifted through all 11 pages of this thread rather than finishing up the movie I was watching.




Yay...


----------



## inTempus

I just wanted to say, I like pie.


----------



## Overread

Stsinner
I won't say that there is not some merrit in what you are saying, but what you are doing very wrong is to attach a lable which applies to the very few and use in, instead, on the majority. It is that which Abraxus is taking issue with (if I am any judge of the situation)  that and you are allowing the actions of the few to taint you view of the many

I also like pie - though it has to be a certain kind of pie 0 and cream or custard is always good too


----------



## inTempus

Overread said:


> I also like pie - though it has to be a certain kind of pie 0 and cream or custard is always good too



I know you prefer bread pudding.


----------



## stsinner

Overread said:


> Stsinner
> I won't say that there is not some merrit in what you are saying, but what you are doign very wrong is to attach a lable which applies to the very few and use in, instead, on the majority. It is that which Abraxus is taking issue with (if I am any judge of the situation)  that and you are allowing the actions of the few to taint you view of the many
> 
> I also like pie - though it has to be a certain kind of pie 0 and cream or custard is always good too



Well, whatever-If a photographer signs up with a forum and then claims they are too busy to answer questions from noobs, that is just plain ignorant and rude, and it is what it is...  

Big Mike is a professional, and I haven't seen him diss one noob's question..  He always takes the time to respond..  I've learned a great deal from him, and I appreciate every bit of it..  Why would a "professional" even register with a forum if they are supposedly so busy that they can't even be bothered by a question from a noob?  Doesn't make much sense....  

If professionals are so busy, as has been suggested, maybe they should be too busy to register with a forum where new shooters will be asking "stupid" questions...   Make sense?

It's not like we stalked you and sleuthed your email address and phone #-----You REGISTERED and agreed to take part in this forum...


----------



## rufus5150

People join forums for different reasons. This is The Photo Forum, not the Tutor/Mentor forum. Some people play that role quite nicely and it suits them. Others like to exchange ideas with peers, others like to look at pretty pictures or socialize with people with the same interests.

Nowhere in the user agreement when you sign up says that by registering you must freely give away all the knowledge in an attempt to educate those that need assistance. 

Granted, there are some people who may well benefit from taking a 'silence is a better option' sometimes and frankly, the occasional jack-assery bothers me, but signing up here obligates no one to anything implicit or inherent. Learn from those willing to share their knowledge and be thankful for them instead of scornful of the people who are here for different reasons.


----------



## inTempus

If noobs venture into the high brow forums where old salts are swapping war stories and battle tactics, then I can see pointing them to the proper (Beginners) forum politely.

If an old pro is in the noob forum bring terse, crass, rude, condescending, etc. then there's an even bigger problem.  It tends to make the whole forum look unfriendly to new users - and there are a LOT of them.

If you don't want to be bothered with noobs, stay out of the noob forums.  If you can't play nice and not talk down to people, don't respond to them.  If the noobs venture into your professional forums, kindly show them the appropriate forum for their questions.

Where's the problem?

I've not seen too much asshattery around here to be honest.  I think this is a generally nice forum full of good people. People will butt heads, that's normal for any gathering of folks. God only knows I've butted heads a few times with others.  But if we all play like adults, we can move past it and get on with our lives without ruining everyone elses.


----------



## abraxas

rufus5150 said:


> *People join forums for different reasons*. This is The Photo Forum, *not the Tutor/Mentor forum*. Some people play that role quite nicely and it suits them. Others like to *exchange ideas *with peers, others like to *look at pretty pictures *or *socialize with people with the same interests*.
> 
> *Nowhere in the user agreement when you sign up says that by registering you must freely give away all the knowledge in an attempt to educate those that need assistance.*
> 
> Granted, there are some people who may well benefit from taking a 'silence is a better option' sometimes and frankly, the occasional jack-assery bothers me, but *signing up here obligates no one to anything implicit or inherent*. *Learn from those willing to share their knowledge and be thankful for them* instead of scornful of the people who are here for different reasons.



Exactly- Thank you.

I consider both LaFoto and Big Mike my friends.  I think some people here should do a little independant reseach and I think some people here should grow up and make an effort to stay on topic. Who really gives a **** if you like pie?  If you have a new lens, whoppee, good for you, post it in the "Whooppeee, I got a new lense section", or something.  If you're into using people, then do it and keep it to yourself.

Are photographers snobs?- Who really cares?  Certainly there are many-many-many assholes among us.

There's a lot more I would like to say, but I only have an hour to study before I have to do the field work.  There's no one to ask, no easy answers, and believe it or not, nothing about it on the web.  Even if there were, I'd still read the books first.  The forum is just entertainment, not school.


----------



## JerryPH

It not answering that is an issue... its the fact that people are TOO LAZY to do a simple search and find their answers faster than it would take to post their question that has been answered (sometimes) HUNDREDS of times.  Noooooooo... they'd rather be spoon fed than to actually *look* for something.  Heaven forbid, they actually one day grow up and become responsble in learning how to become self-sufficient.

There are some topics that are genuinely repeated and answered so often that the answers are here hundreds of times, yet the same questions get asked again and again.  Why not tell them the answer is here and to do a search??  That is the main reason I refuse to even look in the beginners section.  I come here to learn and participate, not wade through the same 100 questions a day about "which camera/lens/filter/whatever" is best.

This kinda falls into one of my pet peeves (laziness or lack of desire to take the initiative to do simple things like a search here or a google).  When I started here about 1.5 years ago, I knew less than most, but becuase I preferred to FIND the answers to my own questions by myself before "asking", I found things faster and this is one of the reasons why I believe that I know more than someone with a couple of years behind a dSLR does (add to that, that I also study, take tens of thousands of specific practice photos, work with experienced photographers face to face and am a little more mature than a 15 year old... at 48.. lol).  

My biggest chuckle is when you tell people to find the answer themselves, they get all pissy about it.  Man, if that is the way they are here on a bulletin board, a place ready to shove that silver spoon in your mouth, imagine what whiners they are in real life?  These are mostly people that for some strange reason believe that the word owes them something.  Sorry, the only thing the world owes these people is a kick in the a$$ so that they can get up off their fat one and start moving a little.

Most normal children stop needing to have their hands held at around the 7-8 years of age.  Too bad some *adults* here forgot to learn that.

Are photographers snobs?  Not the *really* good ones (or at the very least, not the smart ones!).


----------



## stsinner

Jerry, you have by far the worst attitude on here, so I was anxiously awaiting your crass response-and we got it.  In fact, now that I think about it, my whole distaste for the rude answers given on this forum may just stem completely from your answers alone.  Yes, now that I ponder further, I can only think of two of three people on here who have answered rudely or criticized a question.  But I allowed those few instances to affect my opinion of the forum in general.

My question-What's your problem with just answering their questions?  Really!!  What's the big deal?  The sad part is that when you see a question asked, unlike most people who just think of answers, you go into a completely abstract thought process-"Did this person do the requisite research before asking?  Will I be giving up one of my little secrets if I answer?  How dare this person bore me with this mundane nonsense...  "
Who the hell cares why they asked it or if they did their due diligence to research it before asking?  You clicked on the noob thread-why?  Just to belittle?  Seems to be your strong suit, because I have seen nothing offered by you in the way of help, and, in fact, none of your pictures come to mind now that I think about it.  ..


I agree with tharmsen-this is, by far, the friendliest of the photography forums to which I belong.  I suppose I should be thankful that the rudeness is as subdued as it is here, because other forums are just brutal.

Carry on.


----------



## Chiller

I dont reply , mostly cause I dont feel Im technically smart enough . 
I will answer any questions the best I can, and will not turn anyone away, whether they are a noob, or somebody who is up there. Just cause this is the internet, there it no reason to toss anyone aside. We were all noobs once, and everyone got better, because of the help from somebody who was willing to share their info. If I dont have the answer, I will send them someplace to find it. 
In a way I have that attitude, that if a noob asks something that has been asked before, I dont get why people will spend the time to say...blah blah blah....this has been done before. They could have taken the same time to just answer the question. :er:
I dont know....maybe Im just a moron and want to help everyone. 

Oh........cool.  My subscription expired...Im free to go....woo hooo.


----------



## inTempus

abraxas said:


> Who really gives a **** if you like pie?


Ahh, you got sand in your woman parts.  I'm sorry.  I like cake too.

Hey, I got a 17-40 the other day, wanna see it?

:mrgreen:


----------



## NateWagner

Man, alive... I thought this thread was dead months ago. Golley, everything said on here has already been said earlier in this very thread at least a few times.. I say, close the thread already.


----------



## Dagwood56

NateWagner said:


> Man, alive... I thought this thread was dead months ago. Golley, everything said on here has already been said earlier in this very thread at least a few times.. I say, close the thread already.


 
 Shows how much attention I pay to things. When I put in my response the other day, I thought it was a new thread! And it's from August 08! Yikes!


----------



## abraxas

NateWagner said:


> Man, alive... I thought this thread was dead months ago. Golley, everything said on here has already been said earlier in this very thread at least a few times.. I say, close the thread already.



I'm up for that.  Lock 'er up.  It's too distracting from doing photography.


----------



## stsinner

I think some things were said that were long overdue..  I say keep the thread open and allow discussion to continue.


----------



## Onion

stsinner said:


> I think some things were said that were long overdue.. I say keep the thread open and allow discussion to continue.


 
So discuss. Say what's on your mind.


----------



## stsinner

Onion said:


> So discuss. Say what's on your mind.



Okay,, Jerry's a pompous ass, and I don't care if he ever responds to any one of my posts again, and there will be kids picking up cameras every single day from now until forever, and they shouldn't be talked down to no matter how many times their question has been answered or how mundane the topic....  If photography occupies a child's mind, then I'm all for it...  Whether they're readers or not...  Just answer their questions or resolve yourself to never clicking on threads created by noobs... 
We're all here for the same purpose-to learn... Teach us.


----------



## table1349

Onion said:


> So discuss. Say what's on your mind.



Well since you invited.....

Someone explain to me how a thread like this, with all the name calling going on, is allowed to continue when any discussion that borders on any expression remotely related to a political belief or idea is closed?  

I am not talking about political mud slinging or name calling, nor am I speaking of the blatant expounding of a total political philosophy, but rather simple discussions, on the Photographic Discussion Forum that are related to photography. They are routinely either tisk-tisked by the moderators, or closed altogether.  

I find it very hypocritical to have a discussion form where routinelythere are posts that point out an alleged or actual violation of someone's rights, usually by a member of the govenment or preceived member of the government, but then free speech and an exchange of ideas is denied.  The idea that there can be a discussion of this sort and not have your beliefs; beliefs shaped by your knowledge and particular political point of view, is either pie in the sky ( no pun intended tharmsen) or ridiculuosly ignorant.


----------



## Enough Already

I'd like to know the name of the other forum, sounds like it would be an interesting read. And if its that bad where people are so unfriendly, then I guess it goes without saying that photographers can be snobs. What percentage are, how do you even answer that. But it comes down to the individual in life in general. Maybe they were bashed at school and are pissed off at the world and it makes them feel better to make some look or feel stupid. Its a sign of insecurity. Like any forum of any kind, this place has some great helpful and knowledgeable people, but it also has an ugly side. Which side you decide to go to is up to you. But I can assure you, if you take the "im sick of the same stupid questions, Im not going to answer that crap, do some research ya lazy sod" side, knowone is going to think big of you, we're just going to think you're a prick.


----------



## Yemme

Dagwood56 said:


> Shows how much attention I pay to things. When I put in my response the other day, I thought it was a new thread! And it's from August 08! Yikes!




So your the culprit....


----------



## Onion

stsinner said:


> Okay,, Jerry's a pompous ass, and I don't care if he ever responds to any one of my posts again, and there will be kids picking up cameras every single day from now until forever, and they shouldn't be talked down to no matter how many times their question has been answered or how mundane the topic.... If photography occupies a child's mind, then I'm all for it... Whether they're readers or not... Just answer their questions or resolve yourself to never clicking on threads created by noobs... And be a rat bastard...
> We're all here for the same purpose-to learn... Teach us.


 
OIC.  How come you don't help?


----------



## KvnO

stsinner said:


> Okay,, Jerry's a pompous ass, and I don't care if he ever responds to any one of my posts again, and there will be kids picking up cameras every single day from now until forever, and they shouldn't be talked down to no matter how many times their question has been answered or how mundane the topic....



I wouldn't say Jerry's talking down to people, just encouraging them to try to find some answers on their own.  

Is that such a terrible idea?

I appreciate Jerry's presence on the forum and find most of his advice to be spot-on.


----------



## abraxas

gryphonslair99 said:


> Well since you invited.....
> 
> Someone explain to me how a thread like this, with all the name calling going on, is allowed to continue when any discussion that borders on any expression remotely related to a political belief or idea is closed?
> 
> I am not talking about political mud slinging or name calling, nor am I speaking of the blatant expounding of a total political philosophy, but rather simple discussions, on the Photographic Discussion Forum that are related to photography. They are routinely either tisk-tisked by the moderators, or closed altogether.
> 
> I find it very hypocritical to have a discussion form where routinelythere are posts that point out an alleged or actual violation of someone's rights, usually by a member of the govenment or preceived member of the government, but then free speech and an exchange of ideas is denied.  The idea that there can be a discussion of this sort and not have your beliefs; beliefs shaped by your knowledge and particular political point of view, is either pie in the sky ( no pun intended tharmsen) or ridiculuosly ignorant.



Easy answer, I dunno.

More complicated answer; Moderators or those closer to the moderators may be the ones being called names.  Dangerous ground really, if a visitor likes TPF. Or, possibly no longer any moderation. Then it's a free-for-all.  We'll probably revert back to primitive behavior and govern ourselves like in Lord of the Flies, and then only the one with the conch shall be allowed to speak. We'll figuratively kill the old people in caves and drop rocks on any one that's overweight with glasses.  Then we'll light the board on fire only to find it was all an illusion and we still have to answer to authority, or at least our conciencious and live with the stupid things we've said. Yet another binding cord to chew through in middle age.

Probable answer;  We all have ****ty days, and since we've all been here these last few months of tense times, we're probably having our 'cycles' coincide and we're all having a ****ty week.

Reality:
Tough luck I guess.  

My experience:
I learned some stuff today out exploring the practicality of a theory I've had. Meh- Failure. I got some more junk to learn.  As I may have mentioned earlier, I'd rather learn it on my own. More fun for me that way.  Whatever. I had a great day spent with my grand daughter exploring desert rivers and illusive mountain trails, talking about ecosystems, wildlife, archaeology and how history affects our current environment, even a little photography and map reading.  The girl is 14 years old with some tough situations she has to deal with.  My point is, the maturity level was much higher and more comfortable with  her than here.  I'm proud of the way this girl tries to deal with her frustrations without the bitterness, name-calling, and blatant, purposeful ignorance in this thread (and in the forum in general).

I really like this forum when we can all be adults. But I don't have much use for, or interest in it like this.

I believe we all are hypocrites to one degree or another whether we admit it or not. The trick is to be aware of it and catch ourselves when that degree increases to an unsuitable or an uncomfortable level.

You feel like you've missed out? Do you really want a part of that?- Head on. Call names, throw a tantrum.  I'm thinking most of the serious, halfway decently adjusted photographers bugged out of here awhile ago.  That's my penence- I'm out of it.


----------



## stsinner

Onion said:


> OIC.  How come you don't help?



I'm the noob asking questions that have been asked before....

I'll offer any knowledge I have without a second thought or judgment, but I usually sit back and let the pros answer the questions-and they do..


----------



## Dagwood56

Yemme said:


> So your the culprit....


 

Nope! I checked back. It was *surfhawaiiwaves *


----------



## Onion

stsinner said:


> I'm the noob asking questions that have been asked before....
> 
> I'll offer any knowledge I have without a second thought or judgment, but I usually sit back and let the pros answer the questions-and they do..


 
I'm not seeing what your problem is then. You sound discontented and bitter. Maybe you should move on to a place that will make you happy?


----------



## inTempus

stsinner said:


> I'm the noob asking questions that have been asked before....
> 
> I'll offer any knowledge I have without a second thought or judgment, but I usually sit back and let the pros answer the questions-and they do..


Or if you dare to open your mouth and give your opinion, one of the 4k club comes in and reminds everyone of your noob status then mocks those of us trying to help out.

What was the most recent rude comment... oh yes, "the blind leading the blind".


----------



## inTempus

Onion said:


> I'm not seeing what your problem is then. You sound discontented and bitter. Maybe you should move on to a place that will make you happy?


He'll never find a home, he's too bitter.   :mrgreen:


----------



## stsinner

Onion said:


> I'm not seeing what your problem is then. You sound discontented and bitter. Maybe you should move on to a place that will make you happy?



I haven't been bitter at all outside of this thread, but since the question was asked, I was only being honest..  

There is absolutely no reason to dismiss anyone's question and be rude about it, I don't care if someone asks, "What is aperture?"  Even though there are thousands of websites that would answer this for you, and Ken Rockwell's explanation would undoubtedly be the best, it's still a question and likely an honest one..  Is this not just as good a source of information as Wikipedia?  They might just as well learn here, wouldn't you say?


----------



## Susan1114

I've never learned anything by talking......   
I think I'll just observe here and give a whoooohoooooo to the next great picture.  

Like any hobby out there you have your assholes who own every piece of equipment and every program but can't make one decent beautiful photograph.  You know why????   Because you have to have a soul to capture beautiful photos.  The snobs to me are the boys with all the toys and none of the soul. 

P/S cameras can take some damn good pictures and they get ripped for it.  I've seen "come back with a 10mp and talk".  wtf???  

But I always get a good laugh when I see a signature with loads and loads of camera equipment listed by the owners.  I guess to me it's just funny.


----------



## fwellers

Pretty harsh calling an obnoxious, untalented, equipment whore, soul-less.:thumbdown:


----------



## table1349

Give a man a fish and his hunger is satisfied for now.  
Teach a man to fish and he will never be hungry again.  

Does that mean that he never has anymore questions about fishing.  No.  But he has questions with a well defined point in regard to his form of fishing.  

Spoon feed every question with an answer and the questioner is satisfied for a second.  And then they will ask the next question that with some knowledge and forethought could have been answered the first time. 

Teach them how to do a bit of research first, this includes that is ok and even good to do a little research on their own, and they will learn to ask questions with enough insight and forethought that the answer to their question will end up in educating them and lead them to more knowledge. 

And anyone that says that there are no stupid questions, has never been an educator.  There are plenty of them.   

To put it in the words of [FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Lloyd Alexander[/FONT]: [FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]*We learn more by looking for the answer to a question and not finding it than we do from learning the answer itself. *
[/FONT]


----------



## mrodgers

Susan1114 said:


> Like any hobby out there you have your assholes.......


This is not entirely true.  I am trying to play guitar, that is a hobby.  I have many other hobbies and your statement is entirely true for all of them, except playing the guitar (and any other instrument I would guess).  No matter what guitar forum and no matter what question and no matter how simple and basic the question is, I have never once read an experienced musician, or inexperienced for that matter, put down a beginner, tell a beginner "that question has been asked a million times, search you noob" or anything else that you see on any other hobby forum across the internet.

I think that anyone who is planning on involving themselves in a hobby forum should first bookmark and read a guitar forum, or perhaps a musician forum for a short time to learn how to act and encourage involvement of others into the particular hobby they care about.

Hobbies are a passion, all of them from playing the guitar, photography, radio control flying and racing, motorcycling, off-roading, dog ownership, gaming, and many other hobbies that I have been involved with and have joined forums for.  Every one of the hobby forums can learn how to act towards new people to the hobby from the guitar forums I am/have been a part of.


----------



## rufus5150

> I am trying to play guitar, that is a hobby. I have many other hobbies and your statement is entirely true for all of them, except playing the guitar (and any other instrument I would guess).



Hehe. I played guitar in bands for 13 years. I can assure you, there are PLENTY of asshole guitarists out there. Puh-len-tee.


----------



## Chiller

rufus5150 said:


> Hehe. I played guitar in bands for 13 years. I can assure you, there are PLENTY of asshole guitarists out there. Puh-len-tee.


 Dude, I played drums in a ton of 80s bands(the hair versions, not the Duran Duran versions), but the worst encounters I had were with singers.  :er:  If they were not brushing their hair, they were fighting with some chick, whos name they could not remember. :lmao::lmao::lmao: Most times late for practice, and had egos the size of the freeeekin moon.


----------



## nate_mcnasty

it's hard for me to post on here cuz i feel you have to be known to get any C&C! i'm currently looking for a forum that has people more involved. i got the right stuff (NIKON d80, lenses, CS4) just seems like no cares but about them selfs. i would post more but i'm a noob and we know haw that goes


----------



## rufus5150

Chiller said:


> Dude, I played drums in a ton of 80s bands(the hair versions, not the Duran Duran versions), but the worst encounters I had were with singers.  :er:  If they were not brushing their hair, they were fighting with some chick, whos name they could not remember. :lmao::lmao::lmao: Most times late for practice, and had egos the size of the freeeekin moon.



I worked with three singers in my entire "career" (if it were, it did pay for 2 entire years of college) that were great. But yes, the rest... oie. Pree-muh-doh-nah.


----------



## Chiller

rufus5150 said:


> I worked with three singers in my entire "career" (if it were, it did pay for 2 entire years of college) that were great. But yes, the rest... oie. Pree-muh-doh-nah.


 
_We went through quite a few singers.  I remember one guy....Kevin was his name.  Dude had flaming red hair, and the more he sang, the redder his skin went.  He was like a human match stick.  I thought his head was going to blow up many a night. _
_  Then we had this singer....Chris was his name.   We were playing this small club in northern Ontario, and he was trying to immitate Robert Plant with the hand jestures.  Suddenly...there were no more vocals.  Some biker dude thought he looked a little....you know...the G word...and he took a bar stool to the head. :lmao::lmao::lmao:_



nate_mcnasty said:


> it's hard for me to post on here cuz i feel you have to be known to get any C&C! i'm currently looking for a forum that has people more involved. i got the right stuff (NIKON d80, lenses, CS4) just seems like no cares but about them selfs. i would post more but i'm a noob and we know haw that goes


 _When TPF was a small family oriented community, there was no shortage of info, and C&C here.  Now that this place has grown to the monster it is, it can be tough to get what your looking for.  I have found Google to be my friend. _


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## NucleaRR

First I will say that I am new here and so far I have not experienced any bias, yet. I know it will come because it is this way with any hobby as others have said before. The strange thing to me is that depending on the hobby, depends on how noobs are perceived. I'll give you an example. I am a member of a sportbike forum because it is a forum for a specific manufacturer there isn't any of the brand pissing match type stuff but there are people who never have anything constructive to say. There are people on there who have been riding for several years and have seen and done it all. Some are a$$hats others remember where they came from.

The difference between riding and photography is that with riding it is a learned skill, unless you race or stunt. In those two cases some people have natural talent but for all intents purposes it is learned. So the argument about effort to learn and doing it yourself can't be made it has to be learned. Some people can teach themselves to a point and some people take classes. Eventually you reach a point where instruction is needed. With that, sure people still argue, much the same as people are saying here. It's usually people with high post counts and are the regulars or well known. These people generally know what they are talking about and a lot of people look to them to answer questions. The thing is that I have noticed that with sportbike riding that most people are forthcoming with information unless it is a question that there is a 'sticky' about or a question that is asked a million times. So I definitely understand the frustration of noobs asking the same questions over and over. 

I have always said search for a man and he learns that day but teach a man to search he learns for a lifetime. Generally when someone asks one of those reoccurring questions I will politely remind them of the search function and give them some key words to search for. I am in the middle on this debate. I generally learn on my own and only ask for help when I can't find the answer, and even then I google it. We definitely have entered the age of instant gratification and people are hella lazy. So I see both side of this argument. But I still think that the goal of any forum is to provide a place to discuss your hobbies and LEARN from each other. This argument has been had a few time on the sportbike forum and it came down to the point where the mods basically scold you if you don't have anything to contribute. Also people tend to start out question threads with 'I searched but could not find the answer...please don't flame'. It is really sad it has to be this way but it is what it is. It seems that this place maybe going that way too. I hope it doesn't as I have just joined. 

I think with any online community that there will always be those that are humbled by there beginnings and those that at some point transition to an elitist attitude. Realistically I have no issue with either type but I do think that if you don't have anything to contribute then keep your comments to yourself. Noobs scare easily especially when first starting out. You never know, you may indirectly scare off someone who would have made a great photographer and could have been a great addition to the forum. I deal with enough dip$hits everday in my profession the last thing I want is to come here or any forum and get $hit on. Put yourself in those peoples shoes and think of how you would react if someone immediately gives you guff. It maybe annoying but remember you don't have to help.

Cliffnotes: I get both sides so I can sympathize with both.
               Either contribute or keep your comments to yourself.
               This place should be a pleasure to come to not another 
               thing that makes your day horrible.


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## Kish

Good points to consider:
Canon EOS Beginners' FAQ V - Misc

I like how he ends it...

"And if you&#8217;ve gone over this list and you still got a rude response to your post then, yes, you probably just ran into a cantankerous oldtimer who had a bad morning. Ignore him or her and move on."

Works for me....


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## inTempus

NucleaRR said:


> Cliffnotes: I get both sides so I can sympathize with both.
> Either contribute or keep your comments to yourself.
> This place should be a pleasure to come to not another
> thing that makes your day horrible.


Here's what I don't get.

There is a Beginners forum here.  Why would someone who hates redundant questions venture into the Beginners forum then complain about the noob questions?  If you don't have the patience or inclination to be helpful, stay out of the Beginners forum.  If the noobs venture into the upper end forums, politely point them to the forum where they can get their question(s) answered and be done with it.  

It makes no sense to me.  But then some people get a kick out of being rude or constantly annoyed about something it seems.


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## NucleaRR

tharmsen said:


> Here's what I don't get.
> 
> There is a Beginners forum here. Why would someone who hates redundant questions venture into the Beginners forum then complain about the noob questions? If you don't have the patience or inclination to be helpful, stay out of the Beginners forum. If the noobs venture into the upper end forums, politely point them to the forum where they can get their question(s) answered and be done with it.
> 
> It makes no sense to me. But then some people get a kick out of being rude or constantly annoyed about something it seems.


 
I totally agree. Like I said this place should be a pleasure for all members. So if you know that noobs will ask questions that are going to annoy you don't click on that thread. I mean there is a preview of what is in the thread. And if your a noob know that there are going to be some people who will crap on your day. It is just the nature of a forum. I think the most ironic part about this is the description that comes up when you google 'photo forum'...The Photography forum with *photo hints, tips, advice and critique. *


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## bace

I'm snobby towards ****ty newbs. Like just because you bought a camera (maybe even better than mine), doesn't mean you know a lick about photography. The worst is seeing folks with 10k worth of equipment and less than an ounce of talent and creativity.

That said, one thing I've learned of late is how little I know. And how much experience trumps all in many cases. I could have gone to school and learned a lot there, but I don't mind that it's taken me longer to find out things the hard way. I often find myself asking for advice from more seasoned photogs who's work I actually admire and I've never had a problem getting it. Very often I find myself aggravated by photographers who give advice about technical issues when creatively they really suck at photography. Technically sound pictures aren't always the best ones as far as I'm concerned. Photography is still an art form to me. And art has no rules. No limitations. No boundaries.

That said, making technically sound creative shots is better than not making technically sound creative shots.

So, technically you need to be creatively technical.

Wtf are we talking about again?


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## inTempus

bace said:


> I'm snobby towards ****ty newbs. Like just because you bought a camera (maybe even better than mine), doesn't mean you know a lick about photography. The worst is seeing folks with 10k worth of equipment and less than an ounce of talent and creativity.
> 
> Wtf are we talking about again?


We're apparently talking about how people with more disposable income than you have aggravate you to no end.


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## Chiller

bace said:


> *Photography is still an art form to me. And art has no rules. No limitations. No boundaries.*
> 
> Wtf are we talking about again?


 
:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mike_E

Anybody take pause that there are 13 pages of -supposed- discussion about whether or not we're jerks?

If we're not jerks then we are -as a group- certainly self absorbed.


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## Yemme

Mike_E don't say that... it's so not true....


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## Overread

We are not Jerks or Self Absorbed

we are - ARTISTS*


oh gods I need one of those funny arty hats now!

*based on the fact that photography is an art


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## Chiller

Overread said:


> We are not Jerks or Self Absorbed
> 
> we are - ARTISTS*
> 
> 
> *oh gods I need one of those funny arty hats now*!
> 
> *based on the fact that photography is an art


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## kardon

theres a huge amount of people into photography, of course theres going to be a couple @$$hats here and there, how ever I'm pretty fair with almost everyone, except the people, that droll over their own work and try to brag to everyone how they think their so good, that type of person and someone that thinks because they have a higher MP or more expansive gear their better well I'm just a flat out ass to them in many ways, otherwise if you walk up to me with a camera and have some interest I'm nice


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## stsinner

tharmsen said:


> We're apparently talking about how people with more disposable income than you have aggravate you to no end.



Like you, Mr. $6k in two Months...  

:lmao:


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## NucleaRR

I like to add to all that I said before that a high post count does not mean that you necessarily know more that someone else. On that same sportbike forum that I talked about earlier we had a guy who was totally bashing a new guy. The new guy basically gave some advice on a question about oil. Well because the veteran didn't agree he tore him a new one. Others started to instigate the argument and eventually the thread got locked. The new guy stuck around the forum and seemed to really know what he was talking about. It wasn't until later at a meet and greet that we all found out that he was a retired Superbike racer. When the guy who put him down found out, he immeadiatley apologized and rode the racers jock from there on out. The guy said that he had lurked on the site for a long time but never joined be cause he was always traveling.

The same thing can happen here. I have noticed that some of the people with low post counts know what they are talkin about. Some don't, I am one of them. When I see someone's photos I don't comment unless it is about how the photo can be edited graphically. I only do this because I have spent many years learning design. If there is a concept that I understand I will use that knowledge to give my opinion. I am fine with the fact that I may be wrong and if someone was to correct me I would appreciate it. It's the only way that I can grow in my abilities. Like I said before I am new here and I hope that my comments don't rub anyone the wrong way. Sorry to keep using the sportbike forum to compare but it is really the only other forum that I am a part of.


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## Seefutlung

I am.


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## Alleh Lindquist

bace said:


> I'm snobby towards ****ty newbs. Like just because you bought a camera (maybe even better than mine), doesn't mean you know a lick about photography. The worst is seeing folks with 10k worth of equipment and less than an ounce of talent and creativity.


 
Hah the other day I was in a camera store picking up some rental gear and there was a guy buying about $17k in gear (Canon 1Ds Mark III and an arsenal of L lenses) I hear him say to the store employee "now I just need to learn how to use this stuff" I should have offered to give him lessons in my studio.


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## Chiller

Alleh Lindquist said:


> Hah the other day I was in a camera store picking up some rental gear and there was a guy buying about $17k in gear (Canon 1Ds Mark III and an arsenal of L lenses) I hear him say to the store employee "now I just need to learn how to use this stuff" *I should have offered to give him lessons in my studio.*


 ....oh...oh...If you need a substitute for that training gig....Im in.  Your stuff is freekin killer. :thumbup::thumbup:  What I could do with my horror photography...


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## Yemme

NucleaRR said:


> I like to add to all that I said before that a high post count does not mean that you necessarily know more that someone else. On that same sportbike forum that I talked about earlier we had a guy who was totally bashing a new guy. The new guy basically gave some advice on a question about oil. Well because the veteran didn't agree he tore him a new one. Others started to instigate the argument and eventually the thread got locked. The new guy stuck around the forum and seemed to really know what he was talking about. It wasn't until later at a meet and greet that we all found out that he was a retired Superbike racer. When the guy who put him down found out, he immeadiatley apologized and rode the racers jock from there on out. The guy said that he had lurked on the site for a long time but never joined be cause he was always traveling.
> 
> The same thing can happen here. I have noticed that some of the people with low post counts know what they are talkin about. Some don't, I am one of them. When I see someone's photos I don't comment unless it is about how the photo can be edited graphically. I only do this because I have spent many years learning design. If there is a concept that I understand I will use that knowledge to give my opinion. I am fine with the fact that I may be wrong and if someone was to correct me I would appreciate it. It's the only way that I can grow in my abilities. Like I said before I am new here and I hope that my comments don't rub anyone the wrong way. Sorry to keep using the sportbike forum to compare but it is really the only other forum that I am a part of.



Thank you for your input NucleaRR.


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## CanonSnob

NO, not at all... d*mn-it, I knew I should have changed my name.


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## Yemme

Comedian...


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## LeGaston

I like SKiers answer, that sums it up...read..read..practice and read some more.


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## rom4n301

oh yea well i like cake.. but that doesn't some up much at all..


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## Yemme

We killed this thread Rom... No more cake.


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## ottor

I play blues guitar ... there are guitar snobs that believe unless you studied music at julliard, you have no right to provide input .. I also have a Corvette - I have 'acquantinces' who are Corvette snobs - a _real_ corvette is one that's at least 30 years old with original paint, upholstry, and only 5,000 miles on it, etc.. anything else is just a guy with a car.. 

There's Snobs everywhere - in every hobby/interest.... It's not just here..

r


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## JohnMF

you're going to get pretentious people and snobbery in most walks of life, especially in the arts and creative fields, but it does seem to me that photography attracts the most. There's nothing they like more than clobbering each other over the head with their intellectual batons and make other people feel inferior with their superior knowledge and equipment.

I did actually see a survey a few years ago in which photographers were shown, on average, to have the smallest penises compared to other professions. So maybe that explains it...


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## ottor

JohnMF said:


> I did actually see a survey a few years ago in which photographers were shown, on average, to have the smallest penises compared to other professions. So maybe that explains it...


 
:addpics:


Alright........ not really.... :blushing: Pitiful use of a macro lens.....

r


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## mrodgers

ottor said:


> I play blues guitar ... there are guitar snobs that believe unless you studied music at julliard, you have no right to provide input ..


I'll admit, I'm addicted to forums.  RC forums, guitar forums, racing forums, motorcycle forums, car forums, photography forums, sim racing forums, flight simming forums, all kinds of forums.  I don't really know too many people out in the real world who are into stuff like these.  My judgement is based on forums.  I guess I found the perfect guitar forum because in the 4 years I've been reading it, not once have I seen anyone new or old be put down, flamed, not helped, or ignored whether the topic brought up is very deep or the simplest of "how do I change my strings?"

Guitarnoise.com just incase anyone would like to know a good one to visit.



> I also have a Corvette - I have 'acquantinces' who are Corvette snobs - a _real_ corvette is one that's at least 30 years old with original paint, upholstry, and only 5,000 miles on it, etc.. anything else is just a guy with a car..


Not a corvette snob, or even a corvette owner here.  You don't state your location in the avatar, but if you are in the US, I'd give it at least a 75% chance that your Vette is an automatic.  If true, then I will tell you that indeed, it would just be a guy with a car.  Can't drive an automatic.  All you can do is guide it along, and that's not called "driving" in my book 



JohnMF said:


> I did actually see a survey a few years ago in which photographers were shown, on average, to have the smallest penises compared to other professions. So maybe that explains it...


Whew, thank goodness you specified professions.  I guess I have no hope of making my hobby of photography a profession


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## FrankLamont

Adding one more post to the thread doesn't make one less or more snob. It makes one more snobbish post. Includes this one, of course.


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## JohnMF

ottor said:


> :addpics:
> 
> 
> Alright........ not really.... :blushing: Pitiful use of a macro lens.....
> 
> r



 I'll just fetch the wide-angle!


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## Yemme

JohnMF said:


> I did actually see a survey a few years ago in which photographers were shown, on average, to have the smallest penises compared to other professions. So maybe that explains it...


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