# "Do you have any deals..."



## jowensphoto (Jun 18, 2013)

****DISCLAIMER**** I'd really just like examples of how this type of situation has been addressed by others. I'd prefer that this not turn into a debate about noobs saturating the market. 

I'm frustrated. A few months back, I changed my pricing (as in increased) to better fit my business goals/CODB requirements. It seems like everyone is looking for a handout and I'm not really sure how to handle questions like, "I don't want to spend that much, what can you give me for $XX?" without sounding like a total snob.

On the other hand, I kind of need money and could do a shoot on the client's budget but include the online gallery only (rather than the prints and coffee table book my standard package includes).

Anyway, how do you deal with situations like that?

FWIW, my basic package is still a _really_ good deal - especially considering the HCOL area that DC is.


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## kathyt (Jun 18, 2013)

Your standard package includes a coffee table book and prints? I would include that in a second or third tier pricing model. First thing you need to do is get clients in the door and then wow them with service and delivery. IMO, a book should be an upgrade. How do you up sell after they already have a book in hand? Of course I don't know all of your pricing structure but from a client standpoint I would think to myself, what if I didn't like my images and I was stuck with a book and prints. You know what I mean?


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## jowensphoto (Jun 18, 2013)

That's a good point Kathy. I'll admit that this is a test model for a permanent package, and I guess the test results are in  I tried it out because it did REALLY well on a specialty boudoir package. 

Even in this specific case, I not sure I'm the right photographer for her. She was asking for something around $100.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 18, 2013)

And idk why I said prints. It's the coffee table book and online gallery (PASS).


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## Steve5D (Jun 18, 2013)

When I quote someone a price, and they ask "Do you have any deals?", my response is always the same:

"_I just gave you one_."

I'd recommend having "ala carte" pricing available to quote. It won't take long before they see the price disparity.

I tend to quote on the low side. I've been fortunate in that I can often take these "low side" customers into the realm of "real money" customers. So, given that, if someone doesn't want to pay what I quote them, that's completely fine. I won't throw a fit and I won't disparage their choice. I'll thank them for paying me the compliment of enjoying my work to the point where they were considering me, and I'll wish them well.

And I will do so knowing that they won't get anything even approaching my quality for anything near what I quoted them. They'll certainly find a photographer to do the job for what they want to pay, and they'll fool themselves into believing the quality will be similar to mine. And it won't be.

And I'll sleep well...


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## nycphotography (Jun 18, 2013)

If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  So for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.

The entire time, you can be talking about all the things you COULD do  for her.  Book.  Prints.  Galleries.  Styling and hair and makeup.  With  examples laying around that she can pick up and hold and look at.

Most people will end up spending more than their budget, once they see what they can get and they decide they want it.

You take the sessions knowing that you have the opportunity to sell much more.  And that "selling more" is the real trick in business.  Every business.  ;-)


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

For $100? All I can do is hang up the phone, cuz I'm already losing money.


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

I've already mentioned this elsewhere, but I think it's a solid enough idea to be worth repeating.

Photographers in this sort of line are under pressure and will continue to be under pressure. An approach to evolving a better business model is:

- sell _experiences_
- sell _unique objects_

based on a photographic theme. Experiences like trash-the-dress are already out there, invent more things like it. How about a boudoir shoot paired with a massage or a personalized yoga class? Unique objects might be things like tintypes or similar one-off photographic objects.


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## e.rose (Jun 18, 2013)

"Do you have any deals?"


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## e.rose (Jun 18, 2013)

Also... offer payment plans? :sillysmi:


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## jowensphoto (Jun 18, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  S*o for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.
> *
> The entire time, you can be talking about all the things you COULD do  for her.  Book.  Prints.  Galleries.  Styling and hair and makeup.  With  examples laying around that she can pick up and hold and look at.
> 
> ...




I think that's fair and something I am considering. Maybe even spin off the idea as a mini-session type deal and offer it to 3-4 others I know who are working with lower start budgets. It's publicity for me, money in my pocket and people are happy.

Thanks for the feedback,everyone.

Andrew - I like where your head is! Definitely food for thought.


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2013)

Time is the biggest thing to consider. In a crowded metro area, drive times to and from can easily turn a "30-minute" mini-session into a one-hour there, one-hour back deal that takes, actually, three full hours! ACK!!!!!!!!

One thing I have noticed low-end mini-session shooters doing is scheduling multiple mini-sessions at one good outdoor location. Combining even two short sessions at one location, back-to-back, can cut the effects of drive times down quite a bit, and lessens logistical hassles too. Two, 30-minute sessions, back-to-back at $100 each is $200/hr. Of course, the final part is to be able to pose, shoot, and process the images VERY quickly. And by very quickly, I mean 30-40 seconds per image. The way the modern, higher-volume portrait and event pros do it. Not slaving over images, but creating images that are done right, in-camera.Finding and or creating/modifying the light, at the scene, is what the best shooters do. You simply can not take shots that need "heroic" or even level 8 rescue processing and make any profit if youi have to spend 10 minuites per image at the computer.

You cannot "perfect" each and every image down to the last fine detail at these kind of prices. You will need to start with fundamentally good lighting and excellent posing. The way old-time professionals did it.

If you're going to shoot this low-end stuff, you simply can not spend a lot of time perfecting sub-par or "needs-work-to-make-it-work" images. This is the way shot-on-film used to work: you lighted the images right, from the start. It's a different mind-set.

$100, 25 minutes shooting maximum, *five poses*, one CD. ONE person, one location, one clothes change, each additional person $35. That pricing is actually almost double what I see around here from these mini-session new pro's.


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## kathyt (Jun 18, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> That's a good point Kathy. I'll admit that this is a test model for a permanent package, and I guess the test results are in  I tried it out because it did REALLY well on a specialty boudoir package.
> 
> Even in this specific case, I not sure I'm the right photographer for her. She was asking for something around $100.


Oh yeah, boudoir sessions are almost 90% a book sale for me, but not regular sessions. My albums/coffee table books are in the top tier of my pricing model because they are very costly and time consuming to put together.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 18, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Time is the biggest thing to consider. In a crowded metro area, drive times to and from can easily turn a "30-minute" mini-session into a one-hour there, one-hour back deal that takes, actually, three full hours! ACK!!!!!!!!
> 
> *One thing I have noticed low-end mini-session shooters doing is scheduling multiple mini-sessions at one good outdoor location.* Combining even two short sessions at one location, back-to-back, can cut the effects of drive times down quite a bit, and lessens logistical hassles too. Two, 30-minute sessions, back-to-back at $100 each is $200/hr. Of course, the final part is to be able to pose, shoot, and process the images VERY quickly. And by very quickly, I mean 30-40 seconds per image. The way the modern, higher-volume portrait and event pros do it. Not slaving over images, but creating images that are done right, in-camera.Finding and or creating/modifying the light, at the scene, is what the best shooters do. You simply can not take shots that need "heroic" or even level 8 rescue processing and make any profit if youi have to spend 10 minuites per image at the computer.
> 
> ...



It is low-end... and I hate that. If I didn't need the dough, I don't think I'd consider it. I don't have huge issues getting it in camera - but I loveeeeeee photoshop more than is probably healthy. So stopping myself from going above and beyond would be a challenge.

I have three people in mind and have offered it to them. We'll see what happens.


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

This is probably obvious, but if you're gonna set up $100 mini-sessions, and set several up to go back to back you gotta have a "pay in advance, no money back for no-shows" policy. The low end is *tough* in any business. You've got to guard your margins like a junkyard dog, and you gotta be ready to deal with ugliness.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 18, 2013)

I stopped setting fees but cater to each situation based on the budgets of each client that comes to me. I don't give work away, but in this day and age of photography, being able to adjust fees may be the only way to keep a business alive.  I'd rather have the money in my pocket, than let someone else get it.  The opportunities for repeat business also comes into play.


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2013)

Yes...you need to take a retainer, not a deposit. A deposit is refundable. A retainer is not. Get this in your services contract.

$100 for a 25 minute, five pose mini-session might seem low-end, but there are MANY jobs where $100/hr or $200/hr payment before taxes simply does not exist.

And in today's actual market...a person can find a "new pro" who will shoot images for $40-$50. Today for people who just want "something", the Craigslist type shooters are sooooooo plentiful that $100 for a mini-session is actually DOUBLE the prevailing rate. Sure, it's not your best package, but it is what many people can afford, and what they want.

If you shoot enough $100/25 minute sessions in a week, it starts to add up.


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## kathyt (Jun 18, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Time is the biggest thing to consider. In a crowded metro area, drive times to and from can easily turn a "30-minute" mini-session into a one-hour there, one-hour back deal that takes, actually, three full hours! ACK!!!!!!!!
> 
> One thing I have noticed low-end mini-session shooters doing is scheduling multiple mini-sessions at one good outdoor location. Combining even two short sessions at one location, back-to-back, can cut the effects of drive times down quite a bit, and lessens logistical hassles too. Two, 30-minute sessions, back-to-back at $100 each is $200/hr. Of course, the final part is to be able to pose, shoot, and process the images VERY quickly. And by very quickly, I mean 30-40 seconds per image. The way the modern, higher-volume portrait and event pros do it. Not slaving over images, but creating images that are done right, in-camera.Finding and or creating/modifying the light, at the scene, is what the best shooters do. You simply can not take shots that need "heroic" or even level 8 rescue processing and make any profit if youi have to spend 10 minuites per image at the computer.
> 
> ...


Yes! This makes for a very profitable afternoon if you have your scheduling in order. I use my babysitter as my assistant and she loves it. I do these whenever I get a lot of clients that want in around the same time and then I can knock them out in one day. This is great for children's sessions and quick family sessions. I don't really offer children or family sessions anymore, but I still need to accommodate my previous clients.


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## KmH (Jun 18, 2013)

Salesmanship

Qualifying Customers - The Key to Successful Sales For Your Service Business
?a Man to Fish? ? Photography is a luxury?
What Are the Five Types of Customer Segmentation? | Chron.com
Sales Objections are Sales Opportunities

Business management

The Real Business of Photography
Photography Business Secrets: The Savvy Photographer's Guide to Sales, Marketing, and More 
Profitable Photography: Start and Run a Money-Making Business


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

I factor a modest discount into my pricing strategy.  If it's not asked about, I don't volunteer, but if someone does, I will find a reason to offer 10% or an extra print or something like that.  It often doesn't take a lot; many people just want to feel that they're getting something more than everyone else.


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## nycphotography (Jun 18, 2013)

tirediron said:


> I factor a modest discount into my pricing strategy.  If it's not asked about, I don't volunteer, but if someone does, I will find a reason to offer 10% or an extra print or something like that.  It often doesn't take a lot; many people just want to feel that they're getting something more than everyone else.



This ^^^


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## cgipson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  So for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.
> 
> The entire time, you can be talking about all the things you COULD do  for her.  Book.  Prints.  Galleries.  Styling and hair and makeup.  With  examples laying around that she can pick up and hold and look at.
> 
> ...



Really? I would consider $50.00 and hour outrageously cheap, bare bones minimum!  $50 an hour is what I expect the total noob-PROs to start at... although the work is seldom worth it. Jess is better than most


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## nycphotography (Jun 18, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  So for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.
> ...



Really.

If you have all your hours sold and you either have to ration supply or reduce demand, or if you want to free up some more of your personal time, then sure, raise the price.

But if you aren't selling the time you have (as per the OP who "needs the the business"), and you can't make a reasonable profit @ $50 an hour, then yes, you definitely have problem with your business plan (failure to control overhead).


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## cgipson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > nycphotography said:
> ...



I guess that depends on what one considered to be a reasonable profit... doesn't it? Obviously we have different ideas there!  When I do pick up my camera for pay, I have no problem charging significantly more than that... that may not be the case for you and others...


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

You guys can't even sort out whether you're talking about shooting hours or total hours, so this could go on for a while.


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> You guys can't even sort out whether you're talking about shooting hours or total hours, so this could go on for a while.


It _could_, but I'm willing to bet it *won't*!  :waiting:


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> For $100? All I can do is hang up the phone, cuz I'm already losing money.



Exactly.  This would be my response.  I would do NOTHING for $100.  $100?  What a ridiculous "client."  Stop selling yourself short on foolish requests like that.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> You guys can't even sort out whether you're talking about shooting hours or total hours, so this could go on for a while.



He doesn't shoot full time... neither do I. And based on his former post.... I assume he means $50 per hour to be all encompassing (no extra charges for post, travel, etc). 



nycphotography said:


> I write software.  Last 10 years for a  hedge fund, but previously for clinical drug studies and wholesale  distribution.
> 
> I also do real estate, renovating distressed properties for rent on my weekends and vacations.
> 
> Not much time for photography lately!



Obviously photography is not a large part of his income.... nor is it mine (since I don't actively seek it out... and still turn down jobs)  But $50 an hour? That is noob money.. go out of business money... basically for those that are "still learning, so I don't charge much" types


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > For $100? All I can do is hang up the phone, cuz I'm already losing money.
> ...


Why is it ridiculous?  Does the average person necessarily know typical rates for good quality photography?  From their perspective, it's 45-60 minutes, and all they get is a CD, and you walk away with $100; they don't (except for the few who run businesses of their own) stop to think about all of the associated costs.  One of the things I do is explain to people why prices are as high as they are.  I explain that the camera and lens I'm using are worth more than a lot of used cars, that insurance and advertising is expensive, as is the continuing education I partake in so that I can deliver the best quality product to them.  I also explain that there's lots of time involved in preparing for the shoot (cleaning and prepping gear, sweeping the studio, etc), post-production time, etc.  I find that once you lay it out, most people are rather more understanding, and when you toss in a "I understand your budget's tight, but because I think everyone should have nice family photos, I'll do your package for ~10% less, and I'll allow you a clothing change"...  once people understand and then on top of that, feel like they're getting a little something extra (which in reality costs me almost nothing) they tend to be much more receptive to the price.


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

Are you saying that $100 isn't a bit on the low side, or are you saying that you are pretty successful at talking clients up from a $100 budget to something a little more workable?


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## nycphotography (Jun 18, 2013)

"Go out of business money" is ALSO "charging more than the customers are willing to pay".

Me, I would never presume to know what someone's market value is.  Maybe she can get more. Lot's more.  But based on the OP, it looks like the market value for her time is currently much lower than you presume to know it is.

Maybe, through building a business, and through marketing, and through developing sales skills, her time will soon be worth more than this.  Who knows.

But I will absolutely stand pat on my assertion that in a business where you probably don't need to invest more than $10k in equipment (additional to what you already have as a hobby) to get started, where you probably already have a computer you can use, where you can get by with whatever beater car you already have or can pick up cheap, and where you can work out of your house or apartment at least to get started... if you can't live on 90k (2000 hours times $50/hr less 10k in equipment) a year gross, then you need to rethink your expense structure.  Or go back to a 9 to 5 job.

I never said that's all YOU are worth.  I'm just saying that as someone starting a small business, if they think they need to make more than that getting started, then they are probably setting themselves up to fail.  I'm not talking about the ivy league MBA's with financial backing here.  I'm taking the average American's who want to have a small business rather than a job.


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

So nycphotography is talking about total hours.

I wonder whether charlie's talking about total hours or shooting hours? It makes somewhere between a factor of 2x and 10x difference. Which would be why it's a good idea to get it sorted _before_ the argument, rather than after.


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Are you saying that $100 isn't a bit on the low side, or are you saying that you are pretty successful at talking clients up from a $100 budget to something a little more workable?


Neither... sort of.  Yes, $100 does seem a little on the low side to me, but I have no idea what jowen's costs are.  For instance, my one-hour, six high-res file package prices out at $175.  Based on my CODB calculations, it's more like $155-160 for two hours I budget for that job.  Now, if I moved just 40 miles east to Vancouver, I would likely have to increase my prices by 20-25% due to the significantly higher costs there.  

What I am saying is that when you (1) explain to people WHY the work costs what it does, and (2) give them a little bonus, they're usually much more accepting of the price.  I am not a fan of up-selling.  I dislike it when vendors try and do it to me, and therefore, I don't do it to others.  I do explain limitations to clients, but that's it.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

tirediron said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > amolitor said:
> ...



Let me be clear -- what I find "ridiculous" is spending much time at all doing anything for a measly $100 because when all the dust settles you've done too much work for the pay you receive.  When you add up the time involved in (1) obtaining the client through advertising, sales calls, etc., (2) discussing the details of the engagement, (3) reaching the location of the engagement, (4) taking the photos, (5) returning to your shop, (6) processing the photos, (7) delivering the photos, (8) spending time following up with the client, etc., you've wasted way more than $100 worth of your time.

I am not a professional photographer, but if I were, I would not chase engagements of this size.  I think they are a waste of time and energy.  You are welcome to disagree, but that's my $0.02.


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > jwbryson1 said:
> ...



I'm not disagreeing with you, but my question was actually meant to be, "Why is it ridiculous for the client to think that $100 is reasonable for this work?"  Hence the "explain it to them" post.


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2013)

We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

Derrel said:


> We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services.



Or $425 per hour.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think that it makes sense for a professional photographer to set a "floor" on the work they will do.  Chasing $100 deals all day won't pay the bills.  Chasing $5,000+ deals could.


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## frommrstomommy (Jun 18, 2013)

lol from someone not currently making a dime.. id welcome a $100 bill in my tip jar. haha


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

Derrel said:


> We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.


My personal favorite is the .50 - .75/sheet for photocopying!  I'd love to be able to bill out with a 10,000% mark-up!


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

There's plenty of businesses in which a transaction size of $100 can be made to work. I'm not convinced that bespoke photography is one of them, and it certainly requires a massive amount of efficiency, AND a substantial sales and marketing effort.

Even as a meaningful hobby, you're going to need say 100 transactions a year. Less than that and you're really just making a pro-forma charge to your friends, and not trying to "make money" per se. As a viable business that can pay your mortgage you're looking at something like an 700-1000 deal/year bogey. That's 4-5 deals EVERY DAY, which requires some serious scale, which is gonna be a real hassle as a sole practitioner. You can probably make it work but your business is going to have some pretty weird characteristics. This has nothing to do with photography and everything to do with "sole practitioner".

$100 deals make sense as a part of a mix of deal sizes, IF and ONLY IF they will translate into other, larger deals.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> There's plenty of businesses in which a transaction size of $100 can be made to work. I'm not convinced that bespoke photography is one of them, and it certainly requires a massive amount of efficiency, AND a substantial sales and marketing effort.
> 
> Even as a meaningful hobby, you're going to need say 100 transactions a year. Less than that and you're really just making a pro-forma charge to your friends, and not trying to "make money" per se. As a viable business that can pay your mortgage you're looking at something like an 700-1000 deal/year bogey. That's 4-5 deals EVERY DAY, which requires some serious scale, which is gonna be a real hassle as a sole practitioner. You can probably make it work but your business is going to have some pretty weird characteristics. This has nothing to do with photography and everything to do with "sole practitioner".
> 
> $100 deals make sense as a part of a mix of deal sizes, IF and ONLY IF they will translate into other, larger deals.



Amolitor makes the case better than me.  He hit the nail on the head.


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## Derrel (Jun 18, 2013)

Jess needs a good $5,000 package. It'll be a good down-sell from the $7,500 package she has. That oughtta' satisfy the budget conscious DC legal eagles looking to beat somebody out of a few k in service fees.


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?

Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?
> 
> Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!




BYOB?!


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## tirediron (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?
> ...


Booze?
Blonde?
Blow-up doll?


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## Steve5D (Jun 18, 2013)

e.rose said:


> Also... offer payment plans? :sillysmi:



I actually offer that.

My clients should "plan" to make a payment...


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## amolitor (Jun 18, 2013)

tirediron said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > amolitor said:
> ...



Banker. Or, for the deluxe package, Bank.


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## kathyt (Jun 18, 2013)

Derrel said:


> We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.


Don't start this sh*t again.  It is not about how much he is charging per hour, but the knowledge that it takes to charge that much per hour! Same goes for photography.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.
> ...



Yeaaaaa... Kathy! Go, Girl!


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 18, 2013)

Without going off the rails here. I've been reading through the "I wouldn't work for $50 or a $100, it's not worth it to me".  How many that are making this easy statement, don't rely on picking up the $50 or $100 quick shoots?  I know of a few on here that are shooting sole income photography, but it sure is easier to turn down a $100 job when you're guaranteed that full time job pay cheque.

I used to be one of those, "I wouldn't take my camera out of the bag for less than $250"


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## e.rose (Jun 18, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Without going off the rails here. I've been reading through the "I wouldn't work for $50 or a $100, it's not worth it to me".  How many that are making this easy statement, don't rely on picking up the $50 or $100 quick shoots?  I know of a few on here that are shooting sole income photography, but it sure is easier to turn down a $100 job when you're guaranteed that full time job pay cheque.
> 
> I used to be one of those, "I wouldn't take my camera out of the bag for less than $250"



I know people who rely on photographer for full-time income and they wouldn't get out of bed for less than $350.  Including nothing but the shoot.

And I'm not full time at my job.  I'm guaranteed 15 hours and have to hustle to pick up more, but I still don't pick up my camera for less than $250.  I just turned down a potential client actually because they wanted it all for $100.

Maybe you would say I don't count cause I have a part time job, but that sh*t sure as hell ain't paying our bills right now.

But the fact of the matter is, I'm going after a certain type of clientele and I'm trying to brand my business in a particular way, and if I get someone who thinks I charge too much, that means they're not my ideal client type.

Am I gonna be rolling in business and shooting Full-Time by next week?  No, but with each person I *do* shoot, that's a referral in their social group... people who are also most likely my ideal client.  I'm willing to wait for the build up of right clientele vs. chasing down every Joe, Dick and Mary that wants to give me $15 for my troubles.


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## pixmedic (Jun 18, 2013)

I guess im just not that picky. I did a portrait for $75. Granted, it was ONE 8x10 print, but still.  Pretty cheap.


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## Overread (Jun 18, 2013)

e.rose said:


> But the fact of the matter is, I'm going after a certain type of clientele and I'm trying to brand my business in a particular way, and if I get someone who thinks I charge too much, that means they're not my ideal client type.



This is a very key point and I think its also important to realise that, sure anyone can pick up a quick buck here or there and work for minimum with their skill set of choice. The difference is the thread isn't talking about those optional lines of work its talking about the planned MAIN stream of income. For that any pro has to set a line in the sand, and a firm line. They've got to know their business and their costs inside and out so that they can end negotiations early if the client is clearly not able to afford their services (or is clearly unable to be swayed to afford them). Sure along the way they will accept some lowball offers, but they'll be randoms - the short 30 min session at $100 that fits in a dead time slot between two others and such. Sure its not their ideal, but they've a slot and they know that the $100 will at least cover their costs and earn a bit - the rest of the time they'll pitch their business and direction at their target market - $250 - 350 - 500 - 1000 whatever it is. 

Now of course you might set your line at $250, but sell at $300 and then "do a deal" down to $250 - if you make the sale at the $300 great you've done well - if you can't you can do a deal and you sell for your aimed amount - your happy and the client is happy because they got more than they thought they would.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

I'm feeling oddly out of place around here lately.  Perhaps I should bail...


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## Overread (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm feeling oddly out of place around here lately.  Perhaps I should bail...



It's safe to hide in the galleries - no one goes down there. Just - just don't get too close to the Dark Side gallery - that one has a mind of its own. I've seen members go in there and never come out again! Or maybe I'm thinking of the macro gallery - its one or the other.....


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## e.rose (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm feeling oddly out of place around here lately.



..........why? :scratch:


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## cgipson1 (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm feeling oddly out of place around here lately.  Perhaps I should bail...



Jeff,

Just ignore the flotsam!   Does it really matter to you what some people think?   Maybe they are jealous!  lol!


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## kathyt (Jun 18, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> I'm feeling oddly out of place around here lately.  Perhaps I should bail...


Nah, I think it should be the opposite. If someone has to be blatantly disrespectful of your occupation over and over again, obviously there is some sort of jealousy or some rare allergy to higher education. Who knows. Maybe my occupation will be the next on the chopping block. Stick around Jdubs.


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## e.rose (Jun 18, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> Nah, I think it should be the opposite. If someone has to be blatantly disrespectful of your occupation over and over again, obviously there is some sort of jealousy or some rare allergy to higher education. Who knows. Maybe my occupation will be the next on the chopping block. Stick around Jdubs.



Seriously... What the hell did I miss?  Obviously something, haha.  Who is making fun of whose occupation?????


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

I believe jdub may in fact be a lawyer... 

To touch on a few things and the one thing I think really bothers me most about the whole situation (and what I may do to be proactive).

Derrel mentioned travel times in a metro area; I live in the western suburbs, so much so you can't call it the DC suburbs. Ok, ok... I live in a little ass town no one has ever heard of. So the driving out here isn't bad - I have a few places I like to shoot locally and can get to them all within 15 minutes in "bad" traffic. BUT it's a double edged sword because people just don't have the money that people out closer to the city do. Whether that's because taxes here are higher (imagine that!), cost of commute, childcare - whatever - it's typically a lower income area, as compared to areas farther east. 

It's interesting; I booked a session last week with a girl from Fairfax. Told her the price and got, "Awesome! Do I need to pay a retainer or anything like that?" WOW, dream client, right (she also got married recently so perhaps she remembers how all that works). The lady yesterday who is from my area (ugh, I hope I don't get googled as that would just be awkward) said, "Woah, I can't spend that much. What can you do for _under _$100?" Yes, I just reread the message and saw the "under" part. 

So perhaps it's just sticker shock or lack of industry knowledge or the expectation of getting a huge discount because she's known me for so long. I don't know. 

I do know that I suck at marketing. Like really, really suck. My latest effort with the boudoir specialty package has generated a pretty pleasing response; hoping things pick up for me soon. It's frustrating as HELL to know (and I hope this doesn't sound _too_ egotistical) that I'm better than the Craigslist/FB based photographers in my area and still get so little business. SO I'm going to figure out how to spread the word in the area where I have my day job and my SO is from - I believe someone was talking about this on here awhile ago, living far away from where his/her target market is. 

Anyone know how much an ad in the Post is? LOL, I probably don't even want to know.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?
> 
> Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!



OMG, too freaking funny. I realize this is humor, but it's sad to also realize that this would probably sell in my area. I'm right under the WV eastern panhandle -  like 20 girlie-bars (as my uncle calls them) within a 10 mile radius.


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## Steve5D (Jun 19, 2013)

I like to say that I won't back out of the driveway for less than $250.00, but there are some realities, too.

First, I don't have a driveway anymore. The US interstate system is my current "driveway".

If someone said "Hey, Steve, can you come over and shoot a portrait for fifty bucks?", I'd probably do it. 

Why? 

Well, first, it's fifty bucks, which is better than _not _"fifty bucks". 

Second, I don't happen to be one of these people who believe I need to charge for the wear and tear on my gear, or my auto insurance, the rubber lost on the soles of my shoes, or any of the other nickel and dime things many like to consider. The gas is already in the tank and, if I'm not coming to you to shoot a portrait, I'm probably going _somewhere_, to shoot _something_, that no one is paying me for. Time editing? I have to be honest, I can't remember the last time I spent more than five or ten minutes editing a portrait. Also, odds are someone who asks me to do that is a friend, and is gonna' have a cold one waiting for me when I get there.

I no longer have a regular "day job". Photography is it. I've been fortunate in that I've landed a lucrative gig for the summer, but after that, I'll need to figure it all out. Frankly, I've never been in the habit of turning down work, and I really don't want to start making it a habit now. While I certainly won't shoot for free, I also don't intend to turn my nose up at an easy gig for what many would consider too little.

If a client has money he wants to part with, well, I want to be there when he does...


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

Steve - All I can really say is I'm jealous. If I didn't have a family depending on my day-job income, I'd have quit years ago and done the very same thing. Good idea for retirement  I also don't want to set a precedent - in a small town, especially, word spreads quickly though it's not always a good thing. I want my business established as a luxury service/product and I don't want to open myself up to something that's negotiated THIS much (small discounts and an occassional freebie go far, but this specific instance the quote I gave and the budget the potential client responded with were no where in the same ballpark).

I'm going to rethink my marketing strategy.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 19, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what is being said, but as the times change and there become more dead spots I really don't have any problem putting an easy $100 in my pocket, and will every time.  I also know photographers that are easily pulling in well over 100k a year, and some closer to 200k, and they are still taking the $100  shoots, and the reason is the same as it always has been, "better in my pocket, than someone else"   I still have fee ranges that I use depending on client, and also understand the client that I am working with, and know their budgets.  If a long time client calls me an asks if I can drop by and do 10 quick head shots for $100, I'm not insulted by it, I know that this client will be using my services down the road.  Potential clients and potential business can't be simply passed over anymore, regardless of how good the photographer thinks they are.

I know photographers that still make the claim of "I wouldn't get out of bed for less than $500" it's more talk than truth. 

What I don't do is give anything to non-profit groups, I get this all the time.  Many of them just want a free 8x10, if they are inducting someone into a hall of fame, but they won't even pay $15 for an e-mail copy.  I find these types of groups insulting.

If anyone is relying on photography part time to help supplement a family income to pay the bills and is treating photography as a business, paying the taxes etc, I don't have a problem with this, and I'm sure most would take any shoots they can get.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 19, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> I like to say that I won't back out of the driveway for less than $250.00, but there are some realities, too.
> 
> First, I don't have a driveway anymore. The US interstate system is my current "driveway".
> 
> ...



What you wrote is the honest reality of the business, I couldn't have said it any better.


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

$50-$100 is crazy!

Do people not factor in everything goes along with running a business? Factor in gas, taxes, equipment wear, batteries, and your personal time. You'd be lucky to take home a buck in profit.

I am all for helping out and doing work well below a profit margin but I am certainly not going to be giving work away for free or at a loss..

That being said I do charity projects all the times.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

Those are good points - and like I said in my OP, I could use the cash. Though this isn't going to be something I do regularly, I've offered the "mini" to 3 families for quick, simple shoots and an online gallery that they can use to order prints (and I'll make some money off of those).


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> Those are good points - and like I said in my OP, I could use the cash. Though this isn't going to be something I do regularly, I've offered the "mini" to 3 families for quick, simple shoots and an online gallery that they can use to order prints (and I'll make some money off of those).



Right and I guess it's a symptom of going all digital. Back when I shot film there was a hard cost associated with doing business. Nowadays there isn't the cost associated with developing, printing and film, so people think they can play fast and loose until they run out of money.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

I've been experimenting with film and have included it as an upgrade, believe it or not. Some people like the nostalgia 

CRAP! That reminds me... I still have some film I need to take to the shop.


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> CRAP! That reminds me... I still have some film I need to take to the shop.



I hope you are charging a premium or there goes your profit margin.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> It's interesting; I booked a session last week with a girl from Fairfax. Told her the price and got, "Awesome! Do I need to pay a retainer or anything like that?" WOW, dream client, right (she also got married recently so perhaps she remembers how all that works). The lady yesterday who is from my area (ugh, I hope I don't get googled as that would just be awkward) said, "Woah, I can't spend that much. What can you do for _under _$100?" Yes, I just reread the message and saw the "under" part.
> 
> *So perhaps it's just sticker shock or lack of industry knowledge or the expectation of getting a huge discount because she's known me for so long*. I don't know.



Maybe it is the $50 an hour (or multi-hour) Amateur PRO's, and the* low price/ low quality expectations they have been setting*? There are more of them.. then there are good photographers out there... (and since the good photographers aren't subsidized by their spouses, they have to charge realistic prices!)


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## amolitor (Jun 19, 2013)

It's pretty common to reason thus:

_I've got a business up and running, I've got costs but they're pretty much sunk costs at this point. Why wouldn't I take a $100 transaction? It's bigger than $0._

There's nothing wrong with that, up to a point. But let's assume that your business model cannot operate entirely on $100 transations -- you'd go under. This means that in a very real sense your $500 or $5000 deals are actually subsidizing the $100 deal. Yeah, your gross revenue has gone up by $100, but your margins have dropped. You can get away with this to a degree, but there are limits.

Now, if you literally cannot find anything else to do with that time, sure. It's like selling the last few rooms on a cruise ship -- the ship is leaving harbor, the costs are sunk. If you can get $50, take it. The full-fare people are subsidizing the CRAP out of those rooms, but Norwegian Cruise Lines doesn't care, they have $50.

If you CAN find something else to do with that time, though, you probably should do that. Can you do some marketing? Can you follow up with a couple of clients from last year to see if you can get a repeat? Arguably if you can't spend 2 hours of time doing something that's worth more than $100 gross revenue to your business, you're doing something wrong.

Now, that's all a very business-y point of view. If you take a more casual approach, sure, why not? If it's all just friends and cold beers, great. There's no problem with $0 or $100 there. But it ain't *business* it's just being social and helping out, with or without a pro-forma fee. I got no problem with being social, helping out, and especially disposing of cold ones.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

e.rose said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, I think it should be the opposite. If someone has to be blatantly disrespectful of your occupation over and over again, obviously there is some sort of jealousy or some rare allergy to higher education. Who knows. Maybe my occupation will be the next on the chopping block. Stick around Jdubs.
> ...


Different page, E! Start reading on Page 2... and work your way down (keeping in mind that some posts were modified or deleted by mods... you will see the edit notices)


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

Charlie, read the disclaimer in my OP  I know that's a part of it, and even touched on it a few minutes ago - but I refuse to blame those people for my lack of success. There's a way for me to do it, just not how I'm currently marketing. I'm going to PM you in a bit.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

When I had my studio, I occasionally even shot for "free" (and that was listed in the contract.. No charge for the shoot)... knowing I would make it up in the prints I would sell... but that required contracts, and a lot of print sales (sports teams for instance). Sometimes that model works better than charging for shooting time.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> Charlie, read the disclaimer in my OP  I know that's a part of it, and even touched on it a few minutes ago - but I refuse to blame those people for my lack of success. There's a way for me to do it, just not how I'm currently marketing. I'm going to PM you in a bit.



It still affects the market... overall! When someone reads on facebook that a friend got 300 images on a CD for $50, they want the same thing (even if the images are crap!) 

"WHAT??? you want $250??? WOW.. that is SO expensive when my friend got > (yadayadayada)!"


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## amolitor (Jun 19, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> jowensphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Charlie, read the disclaimer in my OP  I know that's a part of it, and even touched on it a few minutes ago - but I refuse to blame those people for my lack of success. There's a way for me to do it, just not how I'm currently marketing. I'm going to PM you in a bit.
> ...



That downward pressure on prices is here to stay. A half a billion picture a day uploaded to the webernets, or if not really that many at least some astronomical number. It's *hard* to get your mind around the idea that some pictures are worth a bunch of money, when pictures are just about the most common thing in the universe. I can bang out 100 of them with my phone in 2 minutes.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 19, 2013)

It also depends on what area of photography a person is working in.  In my field of sports and working with a lot of amateur sports they simply don't have the money for photography, but will come to me anyway and see how we can work things out that will benefit everyone, I will try and work with these people because this is my area.  I know what kind of money they have and a few of my long time clients have dropped me from their events because someone has come along and said they will do it for free, it's not the amateur I get pissed with, it's the fact that I wasn't given the opportunity to work out a deal with the sport, professional loyalty doesn't exist with many people anymore.  Here is an example of how an event worked out, I was approached by group to shoot their big swim meet, they told me upfront they had very little money, the event was happening 10 minutes away from home and ran from Friday-Monday.  The deal we made, they have me listed in their advertising/marketing/program/website  that I was the photographer covering the event, I would shoot and upload all the photos to my website for high res downloads, the down side to this, no guarantees that I will make any money, I had nothing to shoot that weekend, so it was a chance.  I shot the event, put the photos up, and what I shot was better than these swimmers would ever get.  I told them I would sell 10 pictures, download was only $15, not much money for all the work involved, I did almost a $1000 in sales.  What it all came down to was just taking a chance, and giving people options to use me as the photographer and not someone else.  The risk of not making any money was pretty high, it worked out for this time, but may not the next time, but I will still use this as an option.

It's all about the potential.


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## jowensphoto (Jun 19, 2013)

runnah said:


> jowensphoto said:
> 
> 
> > CRAP! That reminds me... I still have some film I need to take to the shop.
> ...




It's an upgrade, so yeah - and the mark up is pretty high considering I have to buy the film, drive to get it developed/scanned to disc and printed... I make it worth my time.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

e.rose said:


> But the fact of the matter is, I'm going after a certain type of clientele and I'm trying to brand my business in a particular way, and if I get someone who thinks I charge too much, that means they're not my ideal client type.



^^^  This exactly.  It's like the difference between being a lawyer who represents people who have received parking or speeding tickets, and a litigator who handles complex class action lawsuits.  There is a need for both types of counsel, but you can't be both.  So you choose what you want to do and you seek out **those** clients.  Certainly, the universe of people who need counsel for a speeding ticket is much larger than class action plaintiffs, but that doesn't mean you must *settle* for those clients.  Just my $0.02.


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## amolitor (Jun 19, 2013)

And the LAST thing you want is some M&A guy trying to sort your speeding ticket.. might as well represent yourself!


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

jowensphoto said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > jowensphoto said:
> ...



Don't forget the PITA charge.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

For the record, those attorneys who represent only speeding / parking tickets defendants make chingos of dinero....

"Chingos" - Noun.  From the Latin for "$hitload."  :mrgreen:


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> For the record, those attorneys who represent only speeding / parking tickets defendants make chingos of dinero....
> 
> "Chingos" - Noun.  From the Latin for "$hitload."  :mrgreen:



Thats why they can afford such great tv commercials.


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## e.rose (Jun 19, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> While I certainly won't shoot for free, I also don't intend to turn my nose up at an *easy gig* for what many would consider too little.
> 
> If a client has money he wants to part with, well, I want to be there when he does...



See... and that's the thing.

I HAVE shot for less than my normal rate for an *easy* gig.  A literal, hey, I need ONE headshot for an audition I'm having in 2 days and I have X amount of dollars.

Okay, sure.  Come on over, I can do that for you.

But the client that I just turned down recently wasn't going to be an easy gig.  It was going to be a NORMAL gig.  For severely less than what I would normally charge.  THOSE... I will not get out of bed for, because I *do* spend a lot of time sorting, editing, preparing product, designing albums, stuff like that, in addition to consultation meetings and materials prior to the shoot, and an image premier and sales session after the shoot.

That's a lot of time, effort and some money that I'm not willing to put into someone who doesn't think I'm worth it.

But hey... if Joey has an audition and he needs a single updated headshot and he has $50 in his pocket... I'll spend 30 minutes with him until we grab one he likes... editing out his zits, color correct, and hand it over.

It's all very situational, but generally speaking... for my *normal* services... you get my normal rate.  Nothing less than that.

::shrugs::



jowensphoto said:


> Steve - All I can really say is I'm jealous. If I didn't have a family depending on my day-job income, I'd have quit years ago and done the very same thing. Good idea for retirement  I also don't want to set a precedent - in a small town, especially, word spreads quickly though it's not always a good thing. I want my business established as a luxury service/product and I don't want to open myself up to something that's negotiated THIS much (small discounts and an occassional freebie go far, but this specific instance the quote I gave and the budget the potential client responded with were no where in the same ballpark).
> 
> I'm going to rethink my marketing strategy.



See that's the thing chica... since you HAVE a day job... I know it seems like things suck, but you're in a very, very good situation.

I wish I could have brought you out to this meeting I went to the other week.  It was super informative and encouraging............ but the bottom line is this:

You have a day job.  You're NOT relying on photography for income.  

So rather than trying to catch every person that comes through the door, make your photography business what you WANT it to be from the get go.  It is NOT going to happen over night, so you have to be patient, but when it starts to happen, it will start to happen among the *right* type of clientele for you.

It's going to be long nights, since you work during the day and have a family... invest in some really good coffee... but if you want to make it happen you can, and you couldn't be in a better position to do it, because again, you don't have the pressure of NEEDING to shoot everything that comes through your door for your family to survive. :sillysmi:

Of course the ultimate goal is to ditch that day job, but when you start to see your business picking up and you get to a point when you're comfortable doing that... THEN you do it. 



cgipson1 said:


> Different page, E! Start reading on Page 2... and work your way down (keeping in mind that some posts were modified or deleted by mods... you will see the edit notices)



Eh, I'm too lazy to go back.  I started from the beginning, but I was skimming... or skipping posts that were TL;DR


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

runnah said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > For the record, those attorneys who represent only speeding / parking tickets defendants make chingos of dinero....
> ...


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> That dork is a plaintiffs attorney for auto accidents, not a defendant's attorney for speeding tickets.  This is the type of guy I'm talking about -- can you imagine having to actually TALK to this guy in person?  He's not exactly Mr. Personality...



Sorry but please forward all request to my lawyer, Adam Reposa.


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## amolitor (Jun 19, 2013)

How do the speeding ticket guys make money? It must be some massive highly efficient operation, since there just cannot be that much money on the table.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 19, 2013)

amolitor said:


> How do the speeding ticket guys make money? It must be some massive highly efficient operation, since there just cannot be that much money on the table.



Volume.  Consider taking in $250 per client (minimum) and 10 to 20 (or more) clients per day in front of traffic court, times 50 weeks per year...

250 x 20 (average) x 50 = $250,000.  Decent income in Houston.


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## pixmedic (Jun 19, 2013)

all these pages in and IM still trying to figure out why anyone else cares a twig and two berries what anyone else is charging for their work. 
Because it affects your business model? I suppose it could. not saying it cant. it affects OUR business model quite a bit. 
We live in the Orlando area. An area that on any given day you can pull up 20 pages of craigslist photographers offering $25 mini sessions, $50 family shoots, and $150 weddings. A college town FULL of students that just discovered they can make some beer money with the camera their parents just bought them. frankly...it sucks when you get a call or an email to quote a price and are told that soandso photography on FB can do it for half that much. decisions have to be made. Sometimes we turn down a lowball offer, sometimes we dont. it all depends on how involved it is. 

As some of you are aware, my wife only shoots part time because of our special needs child. even with insurance, his specialist visits get expensive, so turning down work is not an easy thing for us. As silly as this may sound to most of you, a quick $100 portrait session might pay for our sons visit to the endocrinologist, the neurologist, the geneticist, or his pediatrician after insurance. (the specialist visits are actually more around $200 after insurance) 
Maybe some of you feel we are part of the problem. Just another photographer stealing your client that WOULD have payed your $4000 fee if we had not come along and done it for $1000.  I know it hurts. we feel that bitter sting every week, with every ridiculous lowball offer. 

Maybe one day we will be good enough, or business savvy enough, or successful enough to be able to turn down anyone but the clients willing and able to pay the highest premium for our services. Its a wonderful thought, it really is. But until that day comes, there are still times in our photographic career that SOME income is better than NO income. (especially considering what medic salaries are around here) Sometimes we just have to take what we can get.

Maybe we could blame the cheap FB photographers for undercutting the market. Maybe we could blame the over saturated market for not getting as much work as we want.  Maybe we could blame our child for not being born "normal", and requiring extra care.  But we don't. Whatever failures of successes we have are of our own doing, and we will fail or succeed in this world by our own hands....not by someone else's.

I suppose my point here is this...Dont feel bad about doing what you need to do. Noone else is providing for you or your family, so they have no right to judge how you do it. If you feel you need to take some cheaper jobs, then do it. Never feel bad about doing what needs to be done for your family.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 19, 2013)

Professional photographers have to do what they have to do to stay in business.  People that have full time jobs but use photography as a means to collect extra income can charge what they want, and pick and choose all they want.  Bottom line, some people need the money more than others.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 19, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Professional photographers have to do what they have to do to stay in business.  People that have full time jobs but use photography as a means to collect extra income can charge what they want, and pick and choose all they want.  Bottom line, some people need the money more than others.



Man, is that the truth.
Several years ago (two) I made the decision not to try to sell anything I shoot and not to try to be a '_*photographer.*_'
I love certain very small areas of photography - and pretty much hate the rest.
Reading the previous ~90 comments made me very happy about my decision.


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## runnah (Jun 19, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Reading the previous ~90 comments made me very happy about my decision.



Dammit, almost made it under the wire.

When I started doing website for a business I realized very quickly that it sucks and I hate it. Any fun I had doing it in the past quickly evaporated as I was stuck filling out tax forms, trying to get payments, maintaining records and doing all the other bits and bobs that come with running a business. After a couple years going at it full blast I have scaled back and plan on slowing to a stop as it is not worth the extra headache.

Honestly I never want to get paid to take photos as I use it as a way to express myself creatively outside of a very not creative full time job.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 19, 2013)

It's all fun as a hobby, but when it becomes a job, everything about it changes.  Just like other jobs.  Photography for the majority of the world consider it just a fun hobby and see the professional side as a cool way to just get into events free.  When I was covering the Olympics I always got the "are you ever lucky, get to go to the Olympics for free, watch them live and get paid"  I have always considered it a privilege to shoot events like that, after all who wouldn't want to spend 3 weeks working 20 hour days, while fighting other photographers for the best spots, being harassed by security everyday, riding buses with people that haven't showered in days in +40 heat, or -30 cold.  I've never known it as just a hobby, so I don't know any better.


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## nycphotography (Jun 19, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > Professional photographers have to do what they have to do to stay in business.  People that have full time jobs but use photography as a means to collect extra income can charge what they want, and pick and choose all they want.  Bottom line, some people need the money more than others.
> ...



This is why I continue write software for a living.  I rather enjoy it and I'm relatively good at it... but as a JOB it sucks.  

But everything sucks once it becomes a job, it's just some stuff sucks less than others.  software as a job sucks a lot less than most things, particularly relative to the money involved.

So I choose to keep a career where I can make a crapload of money... so I can afford to pursue hobbies that keep me sane.

If I hated software, I might choose different.  But I don't... I just hate all the corporate crap the would make photography (or pretty much anything else) as a job suck too.


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 19, 2013)

Maybe i'll learn to hate photography as a business. but just got past my first year last month and i'm still enjoying the hell out of it. it's hard as hell and I suck at getting business and suck at marketing myself but I went into this knowing nothing and I have learned a lot. Me at this point in time would take a 100 job as long at it was going to be something i could normally hanel without much difficulty. It's not where I want to be. but pulling in and doing some job for less then what I want helped me pay all my expenses for my first year (besides some equipment purchases I made before I opened my doors) I genearlly have a set amount that I don't feel it's worth my time. I will also give some steep discounts and work for that cheaper amount. I have gone to the client and done the "well I wouldn't normally work for this amount. but if you will push my work out to your friends and share my page and help get my name out there, then I will do it this one time for you. just don't tell anyone I gave you such a cheap price", I have also done a lot of free work and have been working with some larger online magazines for free (well they are keeping me supplied in t-shirts)just to help get my name out there and and make some connections. But I choose who I do the work for and how low I will work for. working full time I have that benefit. and the more things continue I get more picky about who I work for and take more of a stand on pricing. Trying to learn as I go. i'm sure i'm making tons of mistakes, but nobody said it would be easy.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 20, 2013)

I hope you never learn to hate photography.  I have done it so long and  there have been times when I just felt like walking away from it, but I never hated using a camera, it's always been part of my life and it's all I know.  I hate what has happened to photography and how it is now being portrayed as a job anyone can do.


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm sure there could become a time when its not as fun. at this point i'm still learning new things all the time. My biggest fear was that soon as i had to get into the business side that it would lose the fun of it. But so far although i still don't know half as much as I need to. i'm still enjoying learning that end of things.


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## nycphotography (Jun 20, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> I hope you never learn to hate photography.  I have done it so long and  there have been times when I just felt like walking away from it, but I never hated using a camera, it's always been part of my life and it's all I know.  I hate what has happened to photography and how it is now being portrayed as a job anyone can do.



Like about any skilled trade in the media age.  Everyone thinks that because they can see something done on youtube and it looks so easy, that anyone can do it.  And to a point that's true.  Most people CAN do most things.  They just can't do them WELL.

True story... (and one of my favorites, too)...

I had GF once who was in management and accepted to Harvard for her MBA... one day she was going on and on about how her company was going to save all this money by outsourcing IT to India.  Nevermind that I do what she's outsourcing, and I do it for one of the smarter names on Wall Street, and they're pretty sharp about such things, yet they pay me very well.

After a while of listening to her babble on I interrupted her... "I got it! I got it!  We're going to be RICH!.  Sit down and listen!  Here's what we're going to do... we'll outsource all the MBA's to India! Hey we can get bad management for half the price!"

We never actually broke up... she just never called me ever again.  lol.

But the moral of the story is simple, an illustration of human nature in it's purest form:  "Everyone is a commodity, Except for me"

You have to learn to think of yourself as a commodity... then figure out how to add enough value to make yourself expensive... then figure out how to make other people recognize the value and pay for it.


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## amolitor (Jun 20, 2013)

"The application of photography to portraiture has reformed and almost revolutionized that art throughout the world; yet ninety-nine out of every hundred photographic portraits are the most abominable things ever produced by any art, and the originals of them may often truly say, with the old Scotch lady who say her own portrait for the first time, "It's a humbling sicht; it's indeed a sair sicht." This is not the fault of the art itself, but of those who, on the strength of being able to dirty a piece of glass with chemicals, are pleased to dub themselves artists"

H.P. Robinson. "Pictorial Effect in Photography" fifth edition, 1893.

Same as it ever was.


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## Steve5D (Jun 20, 2013)

runnah said:


> $50-$100 is crazy!
> 
> Do people not factor in everything goes along with running a business? Factor in gas, taxes, equipment wear, batteries, and your personal time. You'd be lucky to take home a buck in profit.



Allow me to refer you to post #62.

Gas? Maybe.

Taxes? Sure.

Batteries? Huh? I have batteries that I've been using for the better part of ten years. Exactly what amount should I factor into my rate for those?

I've always been perplexed a bit by "equipment wear". How do you quantify that? How much do I add to my fee for "equipment wear"?

If you don't want to take the low dollar gigs, don't. Like you, I won't shoot for free. But I also know better than to pass up an easy C-note because I don't think it's worth my time. I'll gladly take that hundred bucks if you don't want it...


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## Steve5D (Jun 20, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Chasing $100 deals all day won't pay the bills. Chasing $5,000+ deals could.
> ...


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## manicmike (Jun 20, 2013)

As a stay at home dad, those $100 paydays would be great for me. All that is extra income I wouldn't be getting otherwise.


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## Overread (Jun 20, 2013)

A few things to consider:

Costs to do business - Might help to break this down into groups:

1) The bottom line in hard cash that it costs you to open the door and do nothing. Your studio rent, building rent, lighting, water bills etc.... Ergo this is the cost (often worked out per hour or half hour that you're open) that it costs you to do nothing for the company. 

2) The cost it costs you to perform a specific task or type of photography. This cost will vary quite a bit depending on what you offer and also on what the client wants. However like the previous cost, this is the hard cost to yourself to perform a service.

3) Everything else - your earnings, profit, own living expenses etc.. Ergo this is the remainder of the income that you calculate that you need to meet in order to live the life that you choose and to put food on the table. Note most might break this into 2 points - a lower point which is bread on the table - and an upper point which is bread on the table with jam to go on top (ergo the perks of life). 


It's important to know these values and to split them up as best you can. That way you know, as a person, what your minimum amount is for a service when a client calls you up (add 1 and 2 together). You then know that you MUST get that amount at the very least to break even on the deal. You also know that if you get paid any less then you are gifting your services. Take this example

1) Running costs - $10
2) Service costs - $20

IF a client offers to pay you $20 then you are covering your running costs, but your service is costing you $10 to perform for that client. It's a break point where you could have done the work or not and it won't affect your earnings at all. 

IF a client offers you $30 then you've covered your service costs, and you've covered your running costs - so if you have the time its likely worth it just to cover your running costs. 

IF a client offers you $10 then you're losing out. The client is covering your running cost, but to do so you've got to pay out $20. 



I suspect a fair few of the "I won't get out of bed for $100" people might well be running very close to those situations where the running and service costs for them to put on the service for the client might be leaving them with little to cover after. Now of course each person and company will differ - some will have higher and some will have lower running and service costs; also different clients requesting different services will also cost different amounts. 

In the end the key is knowing and worrying about your own numbers, let the other service providers cater to those segments of the market that you can't or won't service and you stick to yours.


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## GerryDavid (Jun 20, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  So for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.
> 
> The entire time, you can be talking about all the things you COULD do  for her.  Book.  Prints.  Galleries.  Styling and hair and makeup.  With  examples laying around that she can pick up and hold and look at.
> 
> ...



What % of your customers only go for the dvd?  and what % buy anything extra?  I figure most clients that want a cd only wnat it to save money.


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## nycphotography (Jun 20, 2013)

GerryDavid said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > If you can't cover your costs and leave enough profit at $50 an hour, you need to rethink your business plan.  So for $100 she gets 2 hours of your time.  That can be 1 hour shooting and 1 hour post.  Or it can be 2 hours shooting and then hand her a DVD.
> ...



That's why sales is hard work and is a skill.  If the stuff sold itself, then you wouldn't have to.


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## GerryDavid (Jun 20, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> GerryDavid said:
> 
> 
> > nycphotography said:
> ...



Its my understanding that a shoot to cd/dvd photographer doesnt do a picture viewing since all the pics go on a cd/dvd anyways?  When do you do the selling?


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## pixmedic (Jun 20, 2013)

GerryDavid said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > GerryDavid said:
> ...



before they get the pictures on disk. 
we do a sit down with the bride/groom for print proofing, and an online gallery for friends/family that are out of town that wish to purchase prints. 
the bride/groom DO get the pictures on CD, but 60 days after the proofing is done. 
could they all just wait until the bride/groom get the disk and make their own? sure. do friends and family usually buy some prints anyway because they want to send them to people right away? yup.  Do we lose some bit of sales because there are holdouts that will just wait for the bride/groom to get the disk? of course. 
its a balancing act. Print sales are best done in person. it gives you a better chance to make the sale, and there are almost always SOME people that just dont want to wait to get some pictures.


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## nycphotography (Jun 20, 2013)

GerryDavid said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > GerryDavid said:
> ...



Every single minute you are in contact with the client you are selling something, whether you intend to or not.  You can be selling them on an album, or another more elaborate shoot, or on other services... or you can be selling them on getting their CD and splitting as fast as possible.  Really, it's up to you.

And for the record, I suck at selling.  I find it distasteful and I feel icky afterwards.  Which is why I choose to work for the man instead of for myself.  But if I did work for myself I'd have to sell just like everyone else.


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## GerryDavid (Jun 20, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> GerryDavid said:
> 
> 
> > nycphotography said:
> ...



I dont really mind selling.  I just put them in front of a screen and go through the pics with them and get them narrowed down to about 40 of their favorites *out of 150 to 300 depending on the session* and I hand them the price guide and let them decide what they want.  the pictures sell themselves.  I do point out that if they have a hard time picking their favorite few shots that the album or book is a great way to go.  But my method wouldnt work if I were offering a cd of all the images.  something I do need work on is selling wall portraits, I almost never sell them.


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## Steve5D (Jun 21, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> That's why sales is hard work and is a skill. If the stuff sold itself, then you wouldn't have to.



Sales is easy; I've done it for years. The hard work is getting good at it. Once you get good at it, sales is sales. I don't care what you're selling. Learn your product and, if you'r a good salesman, you can sell anything.

Hell, I could sell condoms to the Pope if I could get him on the phone...


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 21, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > That's why sales is hard work and is a skill. If the stuff sold itself, then you wouldn't have to.
> ...



Unfortunately the biggest flaw in most photographers is the sales side.  I can sell other photographers just fine, and have had other photographers negotiate fees for me.  I am the first to say that I suck at it, always have.


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## kathyt (Jun 21, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> GerryDavid said:
> 
> 
> > nycphotography said:
> ...


If you respected your work enough then selling someone a piece of it shouldn't feel distasteful, but should feel gratifying. If you look at sales like a bad thing, then you will never be good at it. I don't even think of sales as sales. You don't have to "sell" them. SHOW them. Show them your work! Show your albums. Show your coffee table books. Show your large vivid prints. Show your canvases. Show you metal prints. I had a session last night and it was 45 minutes away. I brought with me a few of my favorite things to show her, because I knew everything would be done online and I wouldn't have another chance to do so. People love to see things in person. They will buy it if they can see it. Also, another big sales trick is fast turn around times. I have found that if I make sure and get them their products ASAP that they are more likely to get their order in as quick as they can. If you are excited about your work and your products, then they will be too. I have a floating metal print that I show to all of my clients, and it is stunning. The colors literally pop out of it. The print is of my son. Last year I had a little over $4000.00 in sales just from metal prints. Invest in samples. They will pay you back ten fold.


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## squirrels (Jun 21, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> I have a floating metal print that I show to all of my clients, and it is stunning. The colors literally pop out of it. The print is of my son. Last year I had a little over $4000.00 in sales just from metal prints.



Now I really want to see that print!


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## pixmedic (Jun 21, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> Sales is easy; I've done it for years. The hard work is getting good at it. Once you get good at it, sales is sales. I don't care what you're selling. Learn your product and, if you'r a good salesman, you can sell anything.
> 
> Hell, I could sell condoms to the Pope if I could get him on the phone...



Which ones would you recommend to him?


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## kathyt (Jun 21, 2013)

squirrels said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > I have a floating metal print that I show to all of my clients, and it is stunning. The colors literally pop out of it. The print is of my son. Last year I had a little over $4000.00 in sales just from metal prints.
> ...


Here you go. I chose this image to use as a sample because it is imperfect, (my sons underwear is hanging out) it is completely candid, and because it is my child (on the left) so it allows me to relate to the client on a more personal level. It is a 20x30 from H&H lab. I love them and ProDpi for metals.


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## squirrels (Jun 21, 2013)

Dang! That is nice!


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## nycphotography (Jun 21, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Sales is easy; I've done it for years. The hard work is getting good at it. Once you get good at it, sales is sales. I don't care what you're selling. Learn your product and, if you'r a good salesman, you can sell anything.
> ...



Recommend that he buy them all before some yoots actually use them!


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