# License pricing question



## skraller (May 20, 2017)

I am a Real-Estate photographer and have only sold to Realtors with set pricing packages. I'm getting into other types of sales, such as website photos which need a license agreement, which I have never done before.

I have a customer wanting some new pics for their website and brouchers. I'm selling them 8 pics at $40 each with a two year license with a very wide scope of use for an extra $150.

They have never heard of needing a license from their previous photographer, which he wasn't good at all. So I'm having to introduce them to the concept that they don't own the pics and need to renew and repay for the pictures at the end of the license agreement.

They are interested in buying the copyright but the pricing I'm coming up with might be too much. I based the copyright price on three license renewals, equivalent to six years of use. So, eight pics at $40 each would be $320 with an extra $150 for the two year license agreement with a wide scope of use, for a total of $470. Now, to buy the copyright at the six year value that I gave it would be a total of $1,410.

Seems like quite a lot for eight pictures and I think would certainly effect their decision to use me again the future.

Does my pricing sound like it's where it needs to be?
I will add my website below so you can see the quality of my work.
www.wingsimaging.com

Thanks for all valuable insight in advance.


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## tirediron (May 20, 2017)

I think the first question should be, "Why do they think they need the copyright?"  In today's climate, that probably would seem like a lot for eight images, but personally, I wouldn't turn over my copyright for many times that.  If you do wind up doing this deal, make sure that you retain moral rights (or the equivalent for your country).


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## skraller (May 20, 2017)

tirediron said:


> I think the first question should be, "Why do they think they need the copyright?"  In today's climate, that probably would seem like a lot for eight images, but personally, I wouldn't turn over my copyright for many times that.  If you do wind up doing this deal, make sure that you retain moral rights (or the equivalent for your country).



They want the copyright so they can do whatever they like with the photos, but like I said, I included a very wide scope of use which they saw in the example of the license I sent them. 

I don't mind selling them the copyright for that price, as I am not a seasoned professional and have only been at this for two years.


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## table1349 (May 20, 2017)

Actually that sounds pretty cheap to me.  Back in the day we shot next year model vehicles for one of the big 3 auto manufacturers for their upcoming brochures.  Instead of charging for each of the photos we charged by the brochure providing a 1 year copyright with renewal options to be negotiated.  In our initial discussion/planning with the manufacturer they explained that the initial brochure run was to be 1.3 million.   More if needed later on.  

The deal was struck for 1 cent per brochure.  While that sounds pretty cheap that worked out to and initial payday of $13,000.00.  In today's dollars that is equivalent to about $75,000.  Not a bad paycheck for about a months studio work. 

If they want copyright then I personally would quote them a ridiculously high price.  Remember you are the photographer and do you really want them to have full control to do what they want with your photos and reputation?


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## KmH (May 21, 2017)

skraller said:


> I'm selling them 8 pics at $40 each with a two year license with a very wide scope of use for an extra $150.
> 
> They have never heard of needing a license from their previous photographer, which he wasn't good at all. So I'm having to introduce them to the concept that they don't own the pics and need to renew and repay for the pictures at the end of the license agreement.
> 
> ...


There is no location info in your profile.
Here in the US copyright is good for _the life of the photographe_r plus 70 years after the photographer passes.
Which means copyright is quite valuable.

You need to educate the client.
Photos that don't seem to have much long term value now can, and have in many instances, quite suddenly become very or even extremely valuable.

So your pricing seems to be that the $40 per photo is your charge for your time and talent making the photos.
The $150 is your charge for *commercial* *use* of your copyrighted images for 2 years, or $18.75 to license usage of each photo for 2 years.
From a legal perspective each photo requires a use license though all 8 photo file names can be included in a single use license document.

Many US commercial photographers use pricing software that takes into account the variety of factors that affect use licensing pricing.
The American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP.org) recommend the pricing software - fotoQuote Pro - now at version 7.


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## 480sparky (May 21, 2017)

Never base your price on what you 'think' the customer is willing to spend. 

Your price should be based on your Cost of Doing Business.  Trying to be LowestPrice Photography and competing based solely on price is a race to the bottom with every other LowestPrice Photography wanna-be.


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## skraller (May 21, 2017)

You guys are talking about much larger advertising campaigns then these guys are going to run. This is a local business with a much smaller advertising budget. 

I downloaded fotoquote, put in the numbers and came out with a number that would certainly make them look elsewhere. I'm not trying to be the cheapest in town, but am trying to establish a long-term relationship with a fellow business owner. 

I do not have a huge production, just me, a Nikon D5500, three flashes and the necessary essentials.


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## table1349 (May 21, 2017)

skraller said:


> You guys are talking about much larger advertising campaigns then these guys are going to run. This is a local business with a much smaller advertising budget.
> 
> I downloaded fotoquote, put in the numbers and came out with a number that would certainly make them look elsewhere. I'm not trying to be the cheapest in town, but am trying to establish a long-term relationship with a fellow business owner.
> 
> I do not have a huge production, just me, a Nikon D5500, three flashes and the necessary essentials.


That is were negotiations come in.   No one ever succeeded in business by telling people their product isn't worth the money.  Shoot them the price and see how they respond.  Negotiate with them a bit on the price, but don't just drop the price some ridiculous amount.  

The thing is, too many people are too eager to low ball a price to get in with someone only to find that they are now the bottom of the barrel price wise, that is until someone else comes along and low balls you.   By then you have established yourself as a low price photographer and it makes it much harder to raise prices or get out of the cheap photographer market.


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## skraller (May 21, 2017)

Makes sense. thanks guy.


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## astroNikon (May 21, 2017)

Nice photography on your website.  A lot of work goes into each image, which I assume " their previous photographer, which he wasn't good at all" isn't even close to your quality.

I'm curious what the other photographer's price was, and what the customer's perception of what goes into good images and thus the price is.  Of course, that's just talking amongst ourselves.  Educating the customer is key in them understanding the quality difference and thus the price difference.

The customer has to set their "price vs quality"
And you have to set your time involved for "price vs quality"
You have to make it worth your time and effort to make it "profitable" by your standards without undercutting your time to build up your knowledge and experience.  At some point you may just figure that your time is not worth the price paid and move on, or the customer may think that and go back to the "bad photographer."


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## skraller (May 22, 2017)

astroNikon said:


> Nice photography on your website.  A lot of work goes into each image, which I assume " their previous photographer, which he wasn't good at all" isn't even close to your quality.
> 
> I'm curious what the other photographer's price was, and what the customer's perception of what goes into good images and thus the price is.  Of course, that's just talking amongst ourselves.  Educating the customer is key in them understanding the quality difference and thus the price difference.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure of the other gentlemen's prices, but he could not have been asking for much. He was using no lighting, no wide angle lens for interior shots, and no editing. He had been their photographer for quite a long time and has recently passed away. 
As for my time and effort being put into the pricing, as of now, it doesn't take me a long time to complete a shot. I don't do the most elaborate lighting setups, but I imagine I will be able to as time progresses and I acquire for photography knowledge.


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## jeffW (May 25, 2017)

"8 pics at $40 each with a two year license with a very wide scope of use for an extra $150."

As others have asked, have even done your CODB?  Do you have business insurance and insurance for using a drone, commercially?  I ask because those two costs alone force a sustainable business to charge realistic rates? Would it be fair to your family if you got sued without coverage?  

You're working in Eastern Maryland where the houses range from $300,000  and up.  Most likely any and all usage of your images will be for the major metropolitan regions such as Washington DC, Baltimore and Philadelphia seeing that your area is mainly very expensive vacation homes. Realtor's in the state of Maryland will make over $10,000 off the sale of a single house - vacation houses almost exclusively will be researched online by the buyer where the images matter even more. Photos will be used on smartphones to direct out of state buyers to the locations even if the realtor isn't available. 

You stated that the other guy didn't charge as much as you, do you know if he is still in business?

It's really not that hard to do your CODB, even if your spouse is paying most of your bills.  Just get a legitimate gauge at your actual costs instead of guessing what to charge. Because at the moment you are paying your client to photograph their job.  Nobody likes a spreadsheet but it's a healthy activity just like going to the dentist. And knowing some of your competition personally you are way below the average for the state of Maryland.

Allow me to suggest a book to read:  "Design is a Job" by Mike Monteiro  written for graphic designers but is applicable for any freelance artist IOWs someone running a business.  ASMP.org has a Baltimore chapter.  

I can not stress how important it is for a business to do their CODB.

Side rant:  it's funny how the SBA is always running stupid How to write a business plan" workshops but never CODB accounting.  Or is it that only artists refuse to peek at their spreadsheet?

Hope this helps and doesn't come off as a rant


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