# I need some advice on a studio light



## cdryden (Nov 22, 2016)

I am starting to do more water drop shots, smoke shots and high speed shots and I am sick of dealing with my battery powered yongnuo speed light. I want a AC strobe light that can sync at up to 1000th of a sec. I have high speed radio triggers that sync at that speed.
So I'm looking for something that can fire over and over reliably, no misfires. The recharge time doesn't have to be very fast. It must provide enough light for shutter speeds up to 1/8000 and f22. Could someone recommend one. It doesn't have to be top of the line. But I am looking for reliability and decent build quality. I'm hoping to stay around $150.00, is that realistic?


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## ronlane (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm sure you can do it for under $150. Look at Adorama's Flashpoint series of lights.


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## Dubois Photography Group (Dec 20, 2016)

In the studio environment, shutter speed isn't the issue for freezing motion.  Assuming all of your light is coming from strobes (no ambient), flash duration is what will determine how sharp or blurry the water drops are.  In fact, in a totally dark environment you could shoot at 1 second and it would still be tack sharp because your strobes have "frozen" the action.  So, look for a strobe with short flash duration.  Paul Buff's Einstein comes to mind. And the newly announced Profoto D2's are supposedly the fastest.  But, truthfully, anything with a short flash duration is going to be way more than $150.  Have you thought about using continuous lighting?  You could buy a lot of high-watt LED's for $150.  That would allow you to use your higher shutter speeds by cutting out the flash all together.  Just a thought.


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## tirediron (Dec 20, 2016)

The Godox AD360-II while a bit of your current budget would be an ideal rig for this sort of work.  Yes, it is battery-powered, but it's a Lithium-Ion battery which (as far as I can tell) lasts just short of forever!  Its high-speed sync works flawlessly at up to 1/8000 of a second and flash-duration is as little as 1/10,000.


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## WayneF (Dec 20, 2016)

cdryden said:


> I am starting to do more water drop shots, smoke shots and high speed shots and I am sick of dealing with my battery powered yongnuo speed light. I want a AC strobe light that can sync at up to 1000th of a sec. I have high speed radio triggers that sync at that speed.
> So I'm looking for something that can fire over and over reliably, no misfires. The recharge time doesn't have to be very fast. It must provide enough light for shutter speeds up to 1/8000 and f22. Could someone recommend one. It doesn't have to be top of the line. But I am looking for reliability and decent build quality. I'm hoping to stay around $150.00, is that realistic?




Not realistic  (speaking of concept, not price).

Speedlights are called speedights because of their amazing speed.  Speedlights are the answer for fast flash to stop extreme motion.   At their lower powers, they are much faster than any shutter speed.  But 1/1000 second is nothing, speedlights can do that at 1/2 power.  But at lowest power, at least 1/20,000 second, most 1/30000 second, some 1/40,000 second (at lowest power level).  Speaking of regular camera speedlights, like Yongnuo, Nikon, Canon, etc.  It need not be expensive, any speedlight, like Yongnuo. High schoolers used to salvage the speedlight flash circuitry out of cheap Kodak disposable film cameras to use for water drops. See HiViz.com - Activities

Studio lights are designed differently, versatile (many lighting modifiers can be mounted), and powerful, and fan cooled, but not at all fast  (at least not in comparison to speedlights).  Larger flashes are even  slower flashes.   But among speedlights properties, first is fast.

Capability of flash units for high speed photography explains this (second page).

HSS (High Speed Sync) flash is NOT fast.  The flash is continuous (will not stop action at all) and all that you have going for you is shutter speed.  HSS runs at about 20% power of speed light mode, so  1/8000 second is probably 1/2 power at f/3 and 3 feet range.  (See HSS Auto FP - What is it? )  So f/22 is NOT realistic, not even close.   And still only 1/8000 second.  Plus then, the shutter slit motion distorts action, exposes top of frame at a different period of time than the bottom of the frame (4 or 5 milliseconds later, which is a lot if involving fast motion... things move).   HSS does allow faster shutter for ambient (mostly for wider aperture really, like for f/2.8 in bright sunlight), but HSS flash is the full opposite of fast.. HSS has no fast.  And the  HSS power level and range are dismal.   HSS is NOT the answer for fast.  Speedlight is the answer.

Lowest power is not a plus, but still f/16 at 1/64 power and 1/30000 second flash duration at 1+ foot is very realistic (any normally powered speed light, like Yongnuo, etc).   Works for water drops. Batteries last a long time at 1/64 power.  You can gang a couple of manual flashes for another stop of exposure (suggest PC cord with a Y connection ... and NOT any radio trigger).   And if you will be happy with only 1/1000 second, a speedlight can do that at 1/2 power. But the water drops are better much faster. People use speedlights to freeze hummingbird wings at 1/25000 second, up close outdoors in the shade.

In a partially dim room, the shutter can be open a second or two while you set up the shot, drop the water drop, whatever.  A trigger triggers the flash which stops the action with a very fast speed light duration. Then close the shutter.  No ambient exposure at f/16 and low ISO.

There are a very few studio lights designed to operate like speedlights.  Paul C. Buff Einstein is one.  640 watt seconds, about 3 stops stronger than the Yongnuo.  It's lowest power is higher than a speedlights low power, but that is only rated at 1/13000 second (still tremendously faster than most studio lights).  More power simply cannot be faster (RC constant of the larger capacitor). The speedlight idea is to instead cut the flash duration short (and fast).


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## adamhiram (Dec 21, 2016)

I've read  good things about the Godox TT600 flashes, which seem to be the same ones rebranded as Adorama's Flashpoint Zoom R2 model.  They're the same price point as the Yongnuo ones you probably already have, and include HSS capabilities.  I don't know anyone who has used them first-hand, but they might meet your needs without breaking the bank.
Is This The Best Manual Flash? Initial Impressions Of The Godox TT600


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

3 said:
			
		

> about the Godox TT600 flashes
> Is This The Best Manual Flash? Initial Impressions Of The Godox TT600



The author of the article at the above link once again demonstrates an incomplete and unclear understanding of how high speed sync actually works. Let's say it one more time again. High speed sync FLASH is almost useless for sharp, crisp, action stopping. And yet in the article above the author indicates that as long as the flash is not the main source of light, that high speed sync in bright light will stop fast action. High-speed flash is useless for Action stopping even at fast shutter speeds. High speed sync is not one pop of flash, but is multiple, rapid, high frequency mini pops of flash--- stroboscopic pulses, so rapid that you can barely tell that the flash you fire over the course of one exposure might actually be as many as 20 micro flashes.

High-speed flash sync is useful mainly for slow-moving situations like portraiture at wide apertures in bright outdoor lighting. The name that Canon uses, high speed sync, with capital letters (HSS,)is very different from the name that Nikon uses which is FP Sync, or focal plane synchronization. Despite different names, both protocols are virtually identical, but again high speed sync FLASH is not useful for motion stopping, and the OP wants a flash unit that can stop fast-moving subjects.


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## adamhiram (Dec 21, 2016)

Derrel said:


> Despite different names, both protocols are virtually identical, but again high speed sync FLASH is not useful for motion stopping, and the OP wants a flash unit that can stop fast-moving subjects.


Thanks for the great info Derrel, really interesting read.  It makes sense that you might not be able to freeze motion using just the flash duration of these cheaper flashes, but why couldn't you freeze motion using the faster shutter speeds that HSS would afford you?  Are they just not bright enough to be used as a primary light source at such fast shutter speeds?


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## WayneF (Dec 21, 2016)

Derrel said:


> The author of the article at the above link once again demonstrates an incomplete and unclear understanding of how high speed sync actually works. Let's say it one more time again. High speed sync FLASH is almost useless for sharp, crisp, action stopping. And yet in the article above the author indicates that as long as the flash is not the main source of light, that high speed sync in bright light will stop fast action. High-speed flash is useless for Action stopping even at fast shutter speeds. High speed sync is not one pop of flash, but is multiple, rapid, high frequency mini pops of flash--- stroboscopic pulses, so rapid that you can barely tell that the flash you fire over the course of one exposure might actually be as many as 20 micro flashes.
> 
> High-speed flash sync is useful mainly for slow-moving situations like portraiture at wide apertures in bright outdoor lighting. The name that Canon uses, high speed sync, with capital letters (HSS,)is very different from the name that Nikon uses which is FP Sync, or focal plane synchronization. Despite different names, both protocols are virtually identical, but again high speed sync FLASH is not useful for motion stopping, and the OP wants a flash unit that can stop fast-moving subjects.



Derrel, I am in full agreement with you, so absolutely am not disagreeing, just hoping to add more discussion.  HSS is of course  clearly the greatest possible opposite of fast flash.

However possibly clarification on a couple of points.

"As many as 20 micro flashes" seems rather understated (however I possibly don't grasp your duration?)   Here is an article that in 1997 actually measures an early Canon HSS flash to be about 40K pulses per second.
Discharge Curves of Electronic Flash in High-Speed Synchronization Mode - Photography pages of Toomas Tamm

In more recent models, Nikon says about double that rate, and I expect Canon does too now.  These are electrical pulses however, designed to create one rather continuous "flash".   It is continuous light then, and it obeys all the rules of continuous light (for the duration of the FP shutter curtain travel motion... on when shutter opens and still on when shutter closes).  

For one example, a 1/8000 second shutter tremendously reduces the "flash" exposure (exactly like it does to sunlight).  Exposure has to be compensated by opening the aperture, just like sunlight. Some users were startled by that (not how speedlights work), but it is is continuous light now, and reacts just like any other continuous light.

And another further example, because HSS is continuous light now, it obeys all the rules of Equivalent Exposure (exactly like sunlight).  So 1/8000 at f/2.8 is exactly the same HSS flash exposure as 1/500 f/11 (exactly like sunlight - both react the same to Equivalent Exposure changes).  This is handy in sunlight, except that the HSS flash power and range are so low.  One way it is handy is because there is just one HSS Guide Number, and it is valid for any Equivalent Exposure (of any continuous light).

Also, Nikon has always called it High Speed Sync.  I am not aware they ever say HSS, but Nikon has always called it High Speed Sync (often as lower case).  The first one, the SB-25 manual in 1992 says FP High Speed Sync.  The Current SB-910 manual calls it FP high speed sync.

Auto FP is the Nikon camera mode that automatically switches high speed sync in or out automatically, depending only on shutter speed threshold.  I sort of doubt there is any choice about that, HSS mode with a 1/30 second shutter would make no sense and cannot even be possible.     I think they are just flagging that flash mode might change on you, depending on ambient effect on metered shutter speed.


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

Yeah, Wayne, I'm aware of the article you're referencing, based on 1997-era tech from Canon.

Discharge Curves of Electronic Flash in High-Speed Synchronization Mode - Photography pages of Toomas Tamm

I'm trying to write for clarity to people who seem to repeatedly MIS-understand that "high-speed" synch flash does not stop motion.

As far as "duration", the actual speed time for the travel of the shutter across the focal plane renders a net, effective duration of farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr fewer than 40,000, or even 10,000 effective exposures made on the film. Looking at the degree of blurring of a black-chapped chickadee coming into a feeder, shot with a Canon dslr and HSS Canon speedlight, the degree of blurring of the wings and bird gives a net effect of an increddddibly slow flash duration: about like a 1/240 second Speedotron flash tube from an old power pack: net: Blurry as hell.

Basic end result: HSS flash does not stop motion worth a damn.


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

In actual use, using the 200mm f/2 AF-S VR lens, at 1/2,500 to 1/4,000 second synch speeds, on a bright beach with the SB-800 flash, at wider f/stops like f/3.5, the AUTO FP Synch results can easily turn one of the best lenses in the world into a POS lens...the blurring resulting from continuous lighting of the FP flash ruins shots on even slow-moving models.

I think the OP, if he's even here any more, ought to consider something like an older Nikon D70 or D40 for bright-sun,m single-pop, studio flash, using a conventional light, like the Alien Bee 800 or Alien Bee 1600, and being able to synchronize SINGLE-pop studio flash, for high power, at distance (if he needs distance).

Older, CCD-based cameras like the D70 and D40 (but NOT the D40x) and the now-old Canon 1D are STILL being used by X-games and other high-speed sports shooters, for their ability to synch SINGLE-pop flash at high shutter speeds with old-tech triggering methods, like PC cord connections to the camera.

Paul C. Buff himself, prior to fancy time-adjustable-triggering's invention and arrival, did experiments on using conventional, Alien Bee flash units with the D70 and a PC cord connecting the flash to the camera. Look on his site, in the now-archived forum for his results.Pretty good effective power, even at 1/2500 to 1/4000.

I think the OP needs some options.


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

adamhiram said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Despite different names, both protocols are virtually identical, but again high speed sync FLASH is not useful for motion stopping, and the OP wants a flash unit that can stop fast-moving subjects.
> ...



Depends what the user really wishes to achieve. Does the OP want FILL-in light for the shadows, on static people, in bright sunlight? THAT is what High Speed Synch does best. If the OP wants short-duration, _SINGLE-pop flash_ that will reach out to 30 or 40 or 50 feet, he needs another option besides a whimply little speelight using HSS or Auto FP Synch flash.

The problem with HSS or Auto-FP Synch flash lighting lies in what is *the key light*, and what is the "*fill*" light...in my experience with telephoto lenses on moving models in sunlight, the Nikon Auto FP Synch, at shutter speeds of 1/1000 to 1/4000 on the Nikon D2x or D3x camera with the SB-800 and 200mm VR and 135 DC lenses, at wider f/stops like f/2, or 2.5,or 2.8 or even f/3.5, the KEY light is the sunlight....the shadows are filled in by basically, continuous, discrete, very brilliant, hard-edged, direct flash, shot thrugh a Fresnel lens that narrows the beam angle to suit the telephoto lens and its narrow angle of view. End result? A MESS. Ugly images, with a faint smearing in the shadows, if the model is even walking or turning her head. The motion-stopping effect of FP Synch is verrrrry weak.

The problem is the delta, or difference, between the sunlight, and the fill-in light the flash provides. If the key and shadow lights are close, the images may show a veil of un-sharpness. Again: worse on close-ups shot with high-end teles, less noticeable on say, wedding shots with 10 people in them. HSS is a recipe for potential disasters, in some scenarios, especially outdoors, in bright light.

But, why do we even want HSS flash tech anymore? With MODERN sensors, like those in the D3x, D600,D800,D750 line (sony Exmor or newer sensor tech), with 14 to 14.7 EV of scene DR, there's no longer nearly the need for shadow fill-in that we had years ago, when HSS sync was invented. Today? Shoot for the highlights, and LIFT the shadows in software. We no longer have to worry about a 6- or 7-EV total range at the capture medium, on 1990's color slide film. The absolute, pressing need for shadow fill-in via an on-camera flash unit, something critical 15 to 20 years ago, is now long in the past. Flash can add eye-sparkle, yes, but we are past the time when we utterly NEEDED shadow fill-in, for most situations.

I think the big issue is the name, "*High Speed Sync*": it fools people into thinking it is good for stopping fast-action. The more-telephoto the shots, the worse Auto FP Synch/ HSS actually looks...in a wide-angle shot at 20,24,35,or 50mm lens length, the degree of blurring is hidden. Try it on a bird coming in for a landing at a feeder, or a close-up of a walking or running model with a 200 or 300mm lens....UGHHH! Stroboscopic flash, firing acros the entire time the shutter is moving....Uggg...can easily look bad on close-in, high-resolution sensors with critically sharp telephoto lens pictures. Again, consider the ratio of the sunlight and the flash, and how much each contributes to the total exposure; if both are "significant" parts of the exposure, you get _part shot with sunlight_, and the other part lighted by the output of _a_ _stroboscopically firing speedlight_, which is a TINY, focused, pin-point light source perhaps 1 x 3 inches in total size. At the sharp highlight/shadow transitions, like along the nose, there can easily be an objectionable ghost or secondary imaging line, even at 1/2500 second, in bright light.

If one wants FAST!, short flash duration, to freeze motorbikes, or skateboards, or other fast-moving things, a very short, quick, Pop! of SINGLE-burst flash is the optimal solution... the best choices will be *powerful flash units with high output* (monolight flash units,for example) for anything that is at any distance from the camera. Using a PC cord, to connect the camera to the flash, it's possble to shoot on the "tail end" of flash pops from conventional, old-school monolights, like Alien Bees, with old-school cameras like the Nikon D70 and D40, or the old Canon 1D. This is a realllllllly inexpensive way to get both shadow Fill-In flash for shadows, brief flash for motion-stopping, and also and this is key, a fast shutter speed that allows the photographer a way to make the sky under-exposed, via shutter speed on the camera. This is why high-end skateboard and motorcycle jumping specialists are still some of the last people relying on ancient D70 cameras, or cheap D40 cameras: they give you something newer CCD-sensor cameras lack.

The desired look in a lot of action sports, one of deliberately under-exposing the sky, through a fast shutter speed and a relatively small to medium f/stop (like f/7.1 or f/8) creates a foreground motorbike, or jumping snowboarder, or skateboarder who is stopped by the flash, and lighted by the flash...the flash never reaches the backdrop, so this style of photo is something that is actually best achieved using older-tech gear. By shooting say at f/7.1 at 1/4000, a deep, dark, dramatic sky can be achieved, with zero PS work, right in-camera.


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

For the OP: for water droplets, with reallllllllly brief exposures, like 1/25,000 second, or shorter, conventional old-tech speedlights like the Vivitar 285HV, etc, have extremely brief flash durations in their AUTO modes. Same with old cheap Nikon speedlights. For close-distance work, the average water drop shot done at 1/10,000, to 1/64,000 means that a single, individual speedlight flash will need to be pretty close to the water drop.

For outdoor,dirt bikes, and jumping/ramp shots, you will want a much more-powerful monolight type flash, and maybe a long-throw type metal reflector, like the Paul C. Buff long-throw, polished metal, narrow-beam reflector. Consider too, an old Nikon D70 or D40 for the ability to just hook an Alien Bee up with a $12 PC cord, and being able to run the shutter up to 1/4000 second, if desired, to control the sky's brightness. Slow shutter makes the sky more pale, faster makes the sky grow darker. 

For ULTRA-fast flash durations and power, there has long been a "secret", DIY tool. Three, or four, or five cheap speedlights, like Vivitar 283 or 285HV models, connected PC-cord-to-PC cord, and set to 1/4 to 1/16 power, and mounted in a PVC tube, in a semi-circular array. One of the Oregon zoom photographers has done some astounding insect and bird work with this type of setup. By using four units, each at 1/4 power, the flash duration is very brief, yet one gets the overall,net total output of a full-power flash unit. AND gets extremely quick recyle times, because in fractional power modes, the capacitors are never fully dumped.

The Enstein E640 monolight is a nice $499 option, and has a sports mode, for short duration flash, and can also be used at reduced power for 5- to 10 frames per second burst shooting with modern, fast cameras that shoot at 5,6,7,8,910,12 frames per second.


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## WayneF (Dec 21, 2016)

Derrel said:


> I'm trying to write for clarity to people who seem to repeatedly MIS-understand that "high-speed" synch flash does not stop motion.



No argument with that.     HSS means High Speed Sync, Not High Speed Flash.   Which is still a misnomer, because the purpose is that continuous light has no sync requirement.  There is no sync.  Any shutter speed works fine with continuous light (like sunlight), which to me, is not called sync.    HSS is just duplicating the same purpose as the old FP sync flash bulbs, just "burn for a longer time" while the FP shutter curtain travels.



> As far as "duration", the actual speed time for the travel of the shutter across the focal plane renders a net, effective duration of farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr fewer than 40,000, or even 10,000 effective exposures made on the film.



 It did occur to me that if you meant 20 pulses during a 1/8000 shutter slit pass, that 160KHz would be great to reduce flicker.  But that would be spec'd 160KHz, not as 20 pulses, so the meaning wasn't clear.   Maybe they might be up to 160KHz  now? (Last I heard some time back was Nikon was at 100 KHz).   But 20 pulses during an entire 1/200 second shutter curtain pass of 5 milliseconds (curtain travel is definition of sync speed) would be very insufficient.  And I have two Nikons that do 1/320 second sync, which is about 3 milliseconds travel duration.

As an example of insufficient, here is a disappointing Neewer NW985N  flash at 1/8000 second HSS. This is cropped slightly, but in the full frame, you can count about 15 pulses.  I'd think that should be enough, so there's a little more to it, maybe not enough power input (individual pulse duration) so the pulses can hold up the full intensity level? Anyway, disappointing.







The banding wasn't very noticeable at 1/1000 second (8x more flashes I guess), but faster was insufficient.  Neewer relabels several imported flash, this one was a Triopo TR985N.  I'd avoid those, it had other problems too.  But for example, the Neewer VK 750 II is a Meike MK951, not HSS, but it's a superb bargain for $50.

I need to say that I was just playing with the flash to see what it could do.  I do know that no one would consider using HSS for any such indoor use.  Speedlights run circles around HSS, speed, power, range...  But speedlights will not allow f/2.8 with fill in bright sun.  Some seem to actually want to do that. 



> I think the OP, if he's even here any more, ought to consider something like an older Nikon D70 or D40 for bright-sun,m single-pop, studio flash, using a conventional light, like the Alien Bee 800 or Alien Bee 1600, and being able to synchronize SINGLE-pop studio flash, for high power, at distance (if he needs distance).



That would allow using the speedlight, and its speed. Those cameras enforced a fake sync limit of 1/500 second on the hot shoe, but if the flash were off camera on PC cord, there was no communication, and the camera did not know the flash was present to enforce  the limit.  But IMO, that was usually another goal, like outdoor sports, not water drops.  Those models have a CCD sensor which allows the sensor chip to do electronic timing instead of a mechanical focal plane shutter.  All compact cameras (I assume all) also do that, it's a cheap shutter.   There are other issues of that (blooming), but they can sync flash at any shutter speed (no slit, the entire frame opens).  Which shutter speed could help stop sports motion in the continuous ambient, but water drops are done in a room more dim, and  the shutter is open a second or two while the drop is created.  OK, I do have a StopShot timer, and it can open the nozzle to drop the drop, and time when to open the shutter, and time shutter lag before firing the flash, and then close the shutter. This allows a bright room, even more ISO.  But simpler setups open the shutter manually, do their stuff, and then close the shutter, which is open about a second.  

Water drops don't need fast shutter, they need a speedlight.


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## Derrel (Dec 21, 2016)

Great comments, Wayne. I enjoy your Scantips photo site very much.

I was under the impression the OP wanted one flash, "to do it all", meaning water drop work, and outdoor, stop-action flash work, like for skateboards or extreme sports (motor bike, bicycle stuff, ski and skate-boarding,etc.)

I looked at the Paul C. Buff Technical Forum a couple hours ago, at Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum • View topic - Sync Speed, High Speed Sync, and HyperSync™, and the 7-page thread on using monolights for stop-action work has been updated, with some newer 2013 threads on the Godox branded lights.

Registration is free, and it is still in current use, with a number of 2016 flash topics still under discussion. Paul C. Buff, Inc. Technical Forum • View topic - Sync Speed, High Speed Sync, and HyperSync™


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## WayneF (Dec 21, 2016)

Thanks Derrel.  I miss Paul being around, I learned several things from him.  Not to be political, but a current political figure reminds of him, maybe said a few too many things, but he sure worked magic with real deeds.


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## cdryden (Dec 29, 2016)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I now have a much firmer grasp of the differences between flash speed and sync speed and why it's important. This has been one of the most useful threads I've come across in this forum pertaining to my interests. It's also changed my mind about what purchases I need to make to accomplish my goal.


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