# Photography Lawsuit



## VincentPaul

Hey everyone I'd like some advise on a situation, here are some details; 
_(I'll try my best to keep it light and straight to the point)_

I recently did a very small wedding photo/video shoot late last year for a client who was referred to me by a previous client of mine.  Prior to the shoot I followed my normal procedures, gathered info, agreed on a price, sent an invoice (which we both signed) followed by a Paypal invoice.  The payment method was set so 50% was to be paid prior to the shoot and the remaining balance was to be paid after I delivered the products.  The client agreed, paid and we proceeded.  
On the day of the shoot, my back up camera person called out on me just hours shy of the event.  Stuck between canceling and taking a back up option, my wife came in to help me (we had done a shoot together once before and it turned out great) 

Due to the last minute shake up we arrived 2 minutes late (I shared our incoming status throughout our drive to the client) We ended up covering the event for the duration of our agreement.  

Part of the agreement was that due to video post production I would have everything ready no later than 90 days from the event (it was all ready within 80 days) 
Following that the client claimed they were unable to make the remaining payment via Paypal due to some technical issues.  We spent about 10 days trying to rectify the issue before we decided it'd be easier for them to send a check.  Once I received the check, I mailed the item to the client.

The agreement never specified how many photos the clients were to receive as final products, however here is what was sent as agreed; 100 proofed photos for online private view

(100) of those photos printed in a photo album
(2) DVD copies of the video
(2) DVD photo slideshows
20x30 printed photo 

(free stuff I later threw in to rectify the claims below)

a USB flashdrive of the photos (a free gift)
A $25 gift card (free gift for them purchase a frame of their choice for a 20x30 print) 
A free 2 hour photo shoot with prints available to them for the remainder of the year

*The Claim:*
To be short here are the claims I'm receiving; 
1.Key people from the wedding were missing from the final photos
2. Because we were 2 minutes late we never got introduced to those people 
3. The photos were not to their taste, they were not pleased with them
4. The photos took too long to be finished
5. The final DVD they received did not play on multiple dvd players ( I promptly sent a 2nd copy after verifying that it played on my dvd player)
6. The second DVDs I sent still do not play (even though I have video footage showing it playing on a DVD player prior to me sending it to them)
7. A refund request or a lawsuit (it's been about 2 weeks now)

I want to be as fair as possible but,
Given that photography is not my full time job yet I had to take time out from my job to make it to this event (that cost me money)
I've spent days, weeks and nights working on this product (time I will no get back)
Drove over an hour to this shoot (Gas & mileage spent)

What would you do?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Gary A.

You need to decide if you think you're getting ripped off.  If you deemed you fulfilled your obligations according to the terms of the agreement, you may want to seek the advice and representation of an attorney.  While a letter from your attorney would escalate the situation, but it also shows that you are willing to play hard ball and that you will call him on his lawsuit remarks.


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## dasmith232

Usually the biggest failing in a "paid" photo gig is not having a contract. But you didn't make that mistake. You did a contract, and that is excellent. By your description, it sounds like your dealing with a couple of %$#@'s. Those kinds of people simply exist.

It sounds like you've made an effort to satisfy them that goes beyond the contract. While that's admirable, you may have sent a signal that you'll bend (and keep bending) to their whining. That's not a bad thing, but has possibly put you into a bit of a hole.

Whether you *actually* hire an attorney to send a letter, or you say that you're hiring an attorney to send a letter, that might be your best next step. At this point, it sounds like "cease-and-desist" is in order (firm, but as nicely as you think it needs to be).

You said that there is a connection to another client from the past. Hopefully, this isn't crossing over into friend territory, because that sadly would get awkward for you.

The only other thing as a "lessons learned" for going forward is to put a clause in your contract that describes photography as an aesthetic thing. I have this exact clause in my contract:

_"The Client acknowledges familiarity with The Photographer’s portfolio and is requesting services with knowledge of The Photographer’s style; that The Photographer’s work is constantly evolving; that The Photographer’s services are of unique and artistic nature; that the photographs may be different from those taken by The Photographer in the past; and that in creating the photos, The Photographer shall use his personal artistic judgment to create photographs consistent with his personal interpretation of the event(s), which may be different from The Client’s and/or the Subject’s vision of the event. Accordingly, The Client acknowledges that Payment for the photographs shall not be subject to rejection on the basis of taste or esthetic criteria."_

Good luck.


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## Designer

VincentPaul said:


> I want to be as fair as possible but,
> Given that photography is not my full time job yet I had to take time out from my job to make it to this event (that cost me money)
> I've spent days, weeks and nights working on this product (time I will no get back)
> Drove over an hour to this shoot (Gas & mileage spent)


You need to decide if this is an appropriate career path for you.  These last complaints from you are completely irrelevant to the client.  Your description of events and how you fulfilled your contract have not convinced me that you conducted yourself as a professional photographer.  

Therefore; if you choose to treat wedding photography as a business, you've got a lot of ground to make up with the client.  Otherwise, keep photography as your hobby, and don't try this again.


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## astroNikon

Other than the above information ...


> 7. A refund request or a lawsuit (it's been about 2 weeks now)


At this point I would do 1 of 2 things.

1 - give up and provide a refund. Try to negotiate some partial amount because they did receive items.

2- Contact a lawyer to write them a letter about the situation and how you have completed your side of the bargain.  This may cost you up to $1,500.00.  Of course, if a lawsuit does come about this then it will cost you a lot more (and make sure your countersuit [always do a countersuit] stipulates that they pay all legal fees).


Most everything else can be referenced to the contract.  If it was stipulated in the contract the lawyer will notify them of that and how you weren't in breach.



> 3. The photos were not to their taste, they were not pleased with them


I'm curious if you would share a few photos to see if they are blowing smoke or not.

"2 minutes" is part of the complaint, seriously ?

Also, you may want to consider for future reference those Legal Shield things where you pay $25 a month to access to a lawyer for a short reference manner.  They won't go to court on that amount but can do letters, and review contracts, etc.  You get access to a large swath of different lawyers to do small things for you.

FYI, I'm not a lawyer and you are in the territory where you really do need to speak to a lawyer if you don't do the #1 option even partially.


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## smoke665

I'm not nor have I been in this business, but as the day of the event is usually pretty hectic don't most professionals have a pre-event session to cover the specific terms of the service,  to settle on exactly what and "who" is to be included and to establish a go to person on the day of the wedding that is to communicate last minute requests? Seems like a lot of the complaints could have been eliminated had there been.


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## jcdeboever

I would take them to small claims court, forget the lawyers. Not sure what the disputed amount is but assume it would fall into that category. If you did everything you said you did in the contract, the judge will see it your way IMO. You being late is the only thing I see that can be disputed and frankly, any person in their right mind should be able to see that was a petty attempt at not paying the bill. As far as the quality of the photo's, that is subjective and probably not going to be challenged, assuming you have a reasonable skill set. Take the emotion out of it, go by the facts stated in the contract. If the contract states that you would be on time in order to meet and assign specific family members for photo's, forget everything I said and give them a refund. Having said all that, I can tell you I have witnessed some wedding photo's that people paid hard earned money for and they were horrible, even by my amateur skill set. Not saying yours are this way but I can tell you there are a lot of people doing weddings that have no business doing them. I have been asked and I turn them down because I don't want to do them, and I am not skilled or equipped enough.  Curious to see one sample image of a shot that is disputed over quality.


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## Designer

astroNikon said:


> Most everything else can be referenced to the contract.


Was there a contract?

I don't think he mentioned a contract.  "Invoice" and "agreement" were mentioned, but I don't think he referenced a written, signed contract.


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## pixmedic

get a lawyer that specializes in this sort of thing to look at your case. 
dont get legal advice from random people on the internet. 
were photographers, not attorneys. 

if you had a contract, and you delivered what was agreed upon, you should call their bluff of taking you to court. (a lot of times its a bluff to extort money from you)
if you didnt have a contract, you may be S.O.L and it would be entirely up to a judge to decide whats fair, so you take your chances in court. 

if  you did have a contract, I would simply tell them that you have help up your end of the agreement and produced what was agreed upon, and that if they decide to take you to court, YOU will be countersuing them for damages, lost time, court costs, and mental anguish.. maybe even slander. 
we have only heard one side of the story, obviously, but this_* could*_ just be an attempt to extort money. I would not pay them a dime, or give them ANY more freebies until I had the proper attorney consult.


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## smoke665

Designer said:


> I don't think he mentioned a contract. "Invoice" and "agreement" were mentioned, but I don't think he referenced a written, signed contract.



Noticed that also. By "agreement" is the OP saying this was written out or verbal???


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## Designer

*The Claim:*

1.Key people from the wedding were missing from the final photos  What is specified in the contract?

2. Because we were 2 minutes late we never got introduced to those people  For an event that lasts about half a day, why the emphasis on "2 minutes"?  Was it two minutes after the start of the actual ceremony?  If so, then you were more like 2 hours late, not 2 minutes. 

3. The photos were not to their taste, they were not pleased with them  This might be the client's fault for not vetting their photographer prior to signing a contract.

4. The photos took too long to be finished  Again; what is specified in your contract?

5. The final DVD they received did not play on multiple dvd players ( I promptly sent a 2nd copy after verifying that it played on my dvd player)  Anomaly?

6. The second DVDs I sent still do not play (even though I have video footage showing it playing on a DVD player prior to me sending it to them)  Prove it to them.  Ram it down their throats.

7. A refund request or a lawsuit (it's been about 2 weeks now)  If you can get out of this by only refunding their money, you will be way ahead, as compared to a lawsuit.


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## astroNikon

Designer said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most everything else can be referenced to the contract.
> 
> 
> 
> Was there a contract?
> 
> I don't think he mentioned a contract.  "Invoice" and "agreement" were mentioned, but I don't think he referenced a written, signed contract.
Click to expand...

Only the OP knows that specific answer to that specific question.

I read that other posts which referenced "contract" in place of "agreement".

It's all blurry and we only know one partial side of the situation .. and very little at that.


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## dasmith232

VincentPaul said:


> ...we were 2 minutes late...



Thinking about this some more, and prompted by the reply above (from @Designer )...

To me, 2 minutes late means that I'm there 88 minutes prior to the ceremony start time. Even "only" 2 minutes would create some stress, but shouldn't last for very long. This 90-minute period is for all of the "prep" and "detail" shots. This 90-minute period isn't as important as the ceremony, but as a photographer it's a very important period of time.

For some weddings, the start time (for the photographer) is even earlier. This depends on the logistics of the prep areas and size of the wedding.

However, if 2 minutes late means that I'm 2 minutes after the stated start time of the ceremony, I'm really in deep doo-doo. This would be a major failing on my part and the "bad PR" that will come from this would be deserved. And not "bad PR" that could _come_ from this, but that _will_ come from this. Word gets around.

In the first situation, I apologize and then move on. In the second case, I'm going to scramble to mitigate things. I'd be thinking about offering a significant discount or refund.


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## VincentPaul

Designer said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most everything else can be referenced to the contract.
> 
> 
> 
> Was there a contract?
> 
> I don't think he mentioned a contract.  "Invoice" and "agreement" were mentioned, but I don't think he referenced a written, signed contract.
Click to expand...


Yes there was a written and signed contract


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## VincentPaul

smoke665 said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he mentioned a contract. "Invoice" and "agreement" were mentioned, but I don't think he referenced a written, signed contract.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noticed that also. By "agreement" is the OP saying this was written out or verbal???
Click to expand...


It was a written and signed contract


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## smoke665

VincentPaul said:


> It was a written and signed contract



Then depending on the strength of the contract you should be ok. As others stated, contact an attorney, for advise. The initial conference won't be much if anything, and then you'll know how to proceed. Bear in mind that a lot of times even if you win the battle you lose the war, when you go to court. Legal fees, lost time, bad press, all add up in a hurry.


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## table1349

_Dear Dewy, Cheatum & Howe LLC. Attoney's at law.  

My daughter is getting married next month and I would like to hire your law firm as the wedding photographers for my daughter's wedding.  Please contact me so we can make arrangements.  
_
Asking for legal advice on a photography form is like asking a toilet salesman how to become a photographer.   Lawyers don't usually advise their clients to to discuss their cases with others while in litigation, especially in writing on a world wide public forum.


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## Designer

gryphonslair99 said:


> Lawyers don't usually advise their clients to to discuss their cases with others while in litigation, especially in writing on a world wide public forum.


True, but at least our advice is free.  You can't get that just anywhere.


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## VincentPaul

Thank you everyone for your input I really appreciate them.  Just some


Designer said:


> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to be as fair as possible but,
> Given that photography is not my full time job yet I had to take time out from my job to make it to this event (that cost me money)
> I've spent days, weeks and nights working on this product (time I will no get back)
> Drove over an hour to this shoot (Gas & mileage spent)
> 
> 
> 
> You need to decide if this is an appropriate career path for you.  These last complaints from you are completely irrelevant to the client.  Your description of events and how you fulfilled your contract have not convinced me that you conducted yourself as a professional photographer.
> 
> Therefore; if you choose to treat wedding photography as a business, you've got a lot of ground to make up with the client.  Otherwise, keep photography as your hobby, and don't try this again.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your feedback, I'd like to know which parts of the description would have given you those impressions.  There are many things I now would have differently in hindsight but I ask to get a different perspective of how I could have done better.


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## VincentPaul

gryphonslair99 said:


> _Dear Dewy, Cheatum & Howe LLC. Attoney's at law.
> 
> My daughter is getting married next month and I would like to hire your law firm as the wedding photographers for my daughter's wedding.  Please contact me so we can make arrangements.
> _
> Asking for legal advice on a photography form is like asking a toilet salesman how to become a photographer.   Lawyers don't usually advise their clients to to discuss their cases with others while in litigation, especially in writing on a world wide public forum.



Ok I'd like to clear up my reasons for posting this if I haven't been clear.  I'm asking for advise from *photographers* about what a photographer would do in my situation, I am NOT asking for legal advise.  I'm not sure how your statement is of ANY value to this discussion as others have pointed out some valuable points from a photographers perspective.  You may and should keep your sarcastic comments to yourself, if you have nothing of value to bring to the discussion please do not comment on any more of my post(s).  
Thank you


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## table1349

VincentPaul said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Dear Dewy, Cheatum & Howe LLC. Attoney's at law.
> 
> My daughter is getting married next month and I would like to hire your law firm as the wedding photographers for my daughter's wedding.  Please contact me so we can make arrangements.
> _
> Asking for legal advice on a photography form is like asking a toilet salesman how to become a photographer.   Lawyers don't usually advise their clients to to discuss their cases with others while in litigation, especially in writing on a world wide public forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I'd like to clear up my reasons for posting this if I haven't been clear.  I'm asking for advise from *photographers* about what a photographer would do in my situation, I am NOT asking for legal advise.  I'm not sure how your statement is of ANY value to this discussion as others have pointed out some valuable points from a photographers perspective.  You may and should keep your sarcastic comments to yourself, if you have nothing of value to bring to the discussion please do not comment on any more of my post(s).
> Thank you
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should show this thread to your lawyer and ask them what they think.


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## astroNikon

VincentPaul said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Dear Dewy, Cheatum & Howe LLC. Attoney's at law.
> 
> My daughter is getting married next month and I would like to hire your law firm as the wedding photographers for my daughter's wedding.  Please contact me so we can make arrangements.
> _
> Asking for legal advice on a photography form is like asking a toilet salesman how to become a photographer.   Lawyers don't usually advise their clients to to discuss their cases with others while in litigation, especially in writing on a world wide public forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I'd like to clear up my reasons for posting this if I haven't been clear.  I'm asking for advise from *photographers* about what a photographer would do in my situation, I am NOT asking for legal advise.  I'm not sure how your statement is of ANY value to this discussion as others have pointed out some valuable points from a photographers perspective.  You may and should keep your sarcastic comments to yourself, if you have nothing of value to bring to the discussion please do not comment on any more of my post(s).
> Thank you
Click to expand...

The whole problem is that if we give you "advice" and they do sue .... and anyone' statements here could be construed as giving "legal" advice, which we aren't and can't.

Since you mentioned one of their options was going to court .... that's just a big red flag for us.

You had a contract, etc.  The contract is interpretable by the court.  And the situation and provided materials (pictures, etc) can be deemed by the court as meeting the contract or not.

But it *seems* as though you did the right things, but we can't be the judge of that .. literally and figuratively.

As mentioned before .. try to give them a partial refund and see if they are happy about that.  It all depends upon the other party and how far they push.

The bad thing about the internet (a) we do not know how accurate your statements are; (b) we have no idea what the contract actually states; (c) we have no idea on how well you did per contract; (d) any and everything else that we cannot see nor read or interpret.

but as a photographer you just want out of the situation as quickly as possible in order to move on.  In any profession, the more time you waste doing nothing but dealing with a problem, the less time you have to make income/revenue (or just relax).


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## VincentPaul

dasmith232 said:


> Usually the biggest failing in a "paid" photo gig is not having a contract. But you didn't make that mistake. You did a contract, and that is excellent. By your description, it sounds like your dealing with a couple of %$#@'s. Those kinds of people simply exist.
> 
> It sounds like you've made an effort to satisfy them that goes beyond the contract. While that's admirable, you may have sent a signal that you'll bend (and keep bending) to their whining. That's not a bad thing, but has possibly put you into a bit of a hole.
> 
> Whether you *actually* hire an attorney to send a letter, or you say that you're hiring an attorney to send a letter, that might be your best next step. At this point, it sounds like "cease-and-desist" is in order (firm, but as nicely as you think it needs to be).
> 
> You said that there is a connection to another client from the past. Hopefully, this isn't crossing over into friend territory, because that sadly would get awkward for you.
> 
> The only other thing as a "lessons learned" for going forward is to put a clause in your contract that describes photography as an aesthetic thing. I have this exact clause in my contract:
> 
> _"The Client acknowledges familiarity with The Photographer’s portfolio and is requesting services with knowledge of The Photographer’s style; that The Photographer’s work is constantly evolving; that The Photographer’s services are of unique and artistic nature; that the photographs may be different from those taken by The Photographer in the past; and that in creating the photos, The Photographer shall use his personal artistic judgment to create photographs consistent with his personal interpretation of the event(s), which may be different from The Client’s and/or the Subject’s vision of the event. Accordingly, The Client acknowledges that Payment for the photographs shall not be subject to rejection on the basis of taste or esthetic criteria."_
> 
> Good luck.


Correct and thank you sharing.  The client is someone I have known through mutual friends in the past so although I could've made the mistake of going on verbal agreement I decided to protect myself just in case.   Here is what section 5 of my contract stated;
_5. *Image Size, Colour, Style and Composition* 
All image sizes are approximate. The photographer will provide a pleasing colour balance but cannot guarantee exact colour matching. It is sometimes not possible to record on film or in print the exact colour as seen by the human eye. There is no right to reject on the basis of style or composition._

As far as the DVD claim I did send them a link to download the full video as soon as they alerted me the first DVD was not working.  So suffice to say they have the video available to view, only that they wish to have it in DVD format.


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## smoke665

@astroNikon

and - (E) the laws of your state, country, etc.


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## VincentPaul

smoke665 said:


> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was a written and signed contract
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then depending on the strength of the contract you should be ok. As others stated, contact an attorney, for advise. The initial conference won't be much if anything, and then you'll know how to proceed. Bear in mind that a lot of times even if you win the battle you lose the war, when you go to court. Legal fees, lost time, bad press, all add up in a hurry.
Click to expand...

Thank you.  I will contact a lawyer about my best options


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## ClickAddict

Asking photographers what they would do in a LEGAL situation is asking for legal advice.  Yes, there is a photographic spin on it that may be particular to photography (although not unique) and getting a photographer's perspective (in case they have faced similar issues) is valid, however it's still a post requesting advice on how to handle a contractual/legal situation.  (It's like going to a motorcycle gang and saying I want to take photos of some Harleys, how do I go about doing it?  It's impossible to help without giving photographic advice.  Unless they are photographers themselves, your questions should probably be aimed at photographers who specialize in that sort of thing.  And when the field in particular is legal.... and can lead to some major financial problems.... experts are best.


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## Derrel

Regarding the DVD and it not playing in their player: it is very possible that you did not follow the right DVD authoring format for **their** hardware, or that there are illegal characters or chapters or headings in the internal structure of the DVD. Are you really, trulty experienced in DVD authoring and DVD software requirements?

Are they trying to play a "Windows DVD" on a set-top player perhaps?

What exact format was the DVD authored in? A good case in point these days: Mac OS El Capitan no longer recognizes many of my very own *computer-formatted (Win/Mac)* discs that I authored under earlier versions of Mac OS, yet OS El Capitan will still play ISO 9660 (or whatever) generic *DVD-Video* discs that I have. Is it possible that they have a Mac OS computer? Or that you somehow authored the DVD in a somewhat "proprietary" or "OS-specific" type format that will not play on other machines?


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## VincentPaul

One last point, 
The contract did state the initial 1st deposit was non-refundable which was paid through Paypal.  I am willing to reimburse them the $350 check they sent in to help rectify the issue. Given that they did receive the products I don't believe a full refund make sense.  The only issue however is that in my 10 plus years doing business with Paypal in my last 2 client claims, they have ALWAYS sided with the buyers so maybe I will simply reimburse them the paypal payment instead (which was greater than half the amount).


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## VincentPaul

Derrel said:


> Regarding the DVD and it not playing in their player: it is very possible that you did not follow the right DVD authoring format for **their** hardware, or that there are illegal characters or chapters or headings in the internal structure of the DVD. Are you really, trulty experienced in DVD authoring and DVD software requirements?
> 
> Are they trying to play a "Windows DVD" on a set-top player perhaps?
> 
> What exact format was the DVD authored in? A good case in point these days: Mac OS El Capitan no longer recognizes many of my very own *computer-formatted (Win/Mac)* discs that I authored under earlier versions of Mac OS, yet OS El Capitan will still play ISO 9660 (or whatever) generic *DVD-Video* discs that I have. Is it possible that they have a Mac OS computer? Or that you somehow authored the DVD in a somewhat "proprietary" or "OS-specific" type format that will not play on other machines?



I'm not too sure what DVD system they are using.  They did mention having Mac laptops that did not have dvd drives, so I don't believe it's on a mac system.  My DVDs were compiled on my PC windows 10 with DVDStyler.  I tested on my laptop, desktop and PS2 player which is my only other DVD player as I do not normally play DVDs at home.  It all played just fine prior to me sending it out to them.


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## jcdeboever

Why get lawyer involved? Isn't a small claims court easier, providing the married couple haven't started formal litigation? I am not a legal person but more curious as to why no one seems this is a viable alternative for the photographer?


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## table1349

jcdeboever said:


> Why get lawyer involved? Isn't a small claims court easier, providing the married couple haven't started formal litigation? I am not a legal person but more curious as to why no one seems this is a viable alternative for the photographer?


Well for one, if you are in the business of photography you should have insurance including liability insurance.  The insurance companies like to have lawyers involved where they may be called upon to fork over money on a claim.  Liabiality insurance doesn't just cover some one just tripping over your gear and getting hurt.  Also depending on the size of the claim it may not qualify for small claims court.  Emotional distress, Yada, Yada, Yada...can get quite expensive in the claim. Doesn't mean they will win but they can sure claim it if they like.


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## Derrel

As far as I know, both CD music discs and DVD-video discs needs to be burned in a so-called Session-at-Once mode, where the software writes and "intro" or "*lead-in*" to the disc, then the data is written, and finally the entire disc is "*written out*", so that the disc is seen as being complete, and "finalized". On a computer, a multi-session disc can be viewed and played, but that's not the way a Compact Audio Disc or a DVD-video disc is supposed to be authored. 

Keep in mind, this is my recollection from a years-ago-reading of the ISO Red Book or whatever it was called, which details the rules for authoring removable disc media. I am not an expert in DVD authoring, and use Adaptec TOAST and Macs to author my DVD's;-however, as stated earlier, my new OS 10 El Capitan is NOT recognizing media that was authored over a 15-year time span using TOAST software to burn removable media.


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## Designer

VincentPaul said:


> I'd like to know which parts of the description would have given you those impressions.


Seeing as you're a professional businessman, making excuses is lame.  



VincentPaul said:


> ..in my last 2 client claims, they have ALWAYS sided with the buyers ..


So this kind of thing has happened before?


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## VincentPaul

Designer said:


> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know which parts of the description would have given you those impressions.
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as you're a professional businessman, making excuses is lame.
> 
> 
> 
> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..in my last 2 client claims, they have ALWAYS sided with the buyers ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So this kind of thing has happened before?
Click to expand...


No, those were ebay transactions before I got into photography and I'd like to meet someone who has done business for 10 years without any client issues.  I'd like to learn from them.
Also I'm not sure how your first quote from me is an excuse.  Anyhow thanks for your feedback.


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## qmr55

I still want to know if 2 minutes was 2 minutes after the ceremony began, or 2 minutes after you were suppose to arrive prior to ceremony.

Also, I noticed their check payment was $350 and you say that they gave 1/2 deposit up front.  That being said, the total pay was $700?  If that is the case, small claims court is not even worth it.  Neither are lawyers.  At this point, I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned and refund them and make them happy and move on.

Good luck.


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## VincentPaul

qmr55 said:


> I still want to know if 2 minutes was 2 minutes after the ceremony began, or 2 minutes after you were suppose to arrive prior to ceremony.
> 
> Also, I noticed their check payment was $350 and you say that they gave 1/2 deposit up front.  That being said, the total pay was $750?  If that is the case, small claims court is not even worth it.  Neither are lawyers.  At this point, I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned and refund them and make them happy and move on.
> 
> Good luck.



2 minutes after the event was supposed to start.  They started about 20 minutes late themselves.


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## pixmedic

VincentPaul said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know which parts of the description would have given you those impressions.
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as you're a professional businessman, making excuses is lame.
> 
> 
> 
> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..in my last 2 client claims, they have ALWAYS sided with the buyers ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So this kind of thing has happened before?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, those were ebay transactions before I got into photography and I'd like to meet someone who has done business for 10 years without any client issues.  I'd like to learn from them.
> Also I'm not sure how your first quote from me is an excuse.  Anyhow thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...


husband and wife team, wedding and  portrait photography for 12 years. (I was part time, wife was full time)
we did around half a dozen weddings a year and a few dozen portrait sessions. so, nothing terribly prolific.
I suppose if we were better photographers or better business people we might still be doing it. (I dont really miss it though)
however....in that time we:
never issued a refund.
never went to court.
never had a contract dispute that did not end in our favor.
never gave in to client demands that were outside of our contract stipulations when we felt they were unreasonable.
(we did, on occasion, add small services or prints basically a la carte if the need arose)
always had insurance that covered personal injury and property damage in addition to our equipment insurance.

#1: Ironclad contract written by a lawyer that specializes in that sort of thing.
#2: follow contract to the letter, or above and beyond expectations.
#3: never give in to client demands without first consulting aforementioned lawyer.

are you seriously considering refunding them all/most of their money just because they complained and made a threat?



on a _*totally*_ unrelated note....
do you have a link to your portfolio, and can you travel to Florida to do some work?
we would like some family portraits taken. maybe some video.
willing to pay well.


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## smoke665

pixmedic said:


> never went to court.
> never had a contract dispute that did not end in our favor.
> never gave in to client demands that were outside of our contract stipulations when we felt they were unreasonable.



In 40 plus years of business, I encountered my share of deadbeats in the freight business. Unfortunate downside of being in the business. Make sure it's in writing, dot all the "i's" cross all the "t", know when to say "no", and when to walk away.


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## Designer

You've got to know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em, know when to walk away.


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## VincentPaul

pixmedic said:


> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know which parts of the description would have given you those impressions.
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as you're a professional businessman, making excuses is lame.
> 
> 
> 
> VincentPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..in my last 2 client claims, they have ALWAYS sided with the buyers ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So this kind of thing has happened before?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, those were ebay transactions before I got into photography and I'd like to meet someone who has done business for 10 years without any client issues.  I'd like to learn from them.
> Also I'm not sure how your first quote from me is an excuse.  Anyhow thanks for your feedback.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> husband and wife team, wedding and  portrait photography for 12 years. (I was part time, wife was full time)
> we did around half a dozen weddings a year and a few dozen portrait sessions. so, nothing terribly prolific.
> I suppose if we were better photographers or better business people we might still be doing it. (I dont really miss it though)
> however....in that time we:
> never issued a refund.
> never went to court.
> never had a contract dispute that did not end in our favor.
> never gave in to client demands that were outside of our contract stipulations when we felt they were unreasonable.
> (we did, on occasion, add small services or prints basically a la carte if the need arose)
> always had insurance that covered personal injury and property damage in addition to our equipment insurance.
> 
> #1: Ironclad contract written by a lawyer that specializes in that sort of thing.
> #2: follow contract to the letter, or above and beyond expectations.
> #3: never give in to client demands without first consulting aforementioned lawyer.
> 
> are you seriously considering refunding them all/most of their money just because they complained and made a threat?
> 
> 
> 
> on a _*totally*_ unrelated note....
> do you have a link to your portfolio, and can you travel to Florida to do some work?
> we would like some family portraits taken. maybe some video.
> willing to pay well.
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing.


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## table1349

Designer said:


> You've got to know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em, know when to walk away.


You left out "Know when to run."


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## Tabe

VincentPaul said:


> 2 minutes after the event was supposed to start.  They started about 20 minutes late themselves.


In that case, give them a full refund. You were far more than 2 minutes late. You should be there well ahead of the event, not "on time" and surely not 2 minutes after the scheduled start time.


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## KmH

Note that it was said the wedding party was even later getting started - by 18 minutes.

It's pretty much useless to speculate here because we're only hearing from one side of the issue, which is why court hears both sides.
We don't know what country the OP is in either because there is no location info in the OP's profile.
The OP needs to consult a qualified attorney, and if not already done have the attorney look over the contract.


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## dennybeall

Having the experience of a number of small businesses and a couple of quite large ones we'd had many threats of legal action. We were right in every case and so did nothing. No legal action was ever done.
In your case I'd wait and see if any actual legal action is actually taken and then respond accordingly.
The world is full of deadbeats and snowflakes that will threaten but when they try to get an actual lawyer to file suit they can't get one.


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## smoke665

@dennybeall my favorite was "I'm going to have MY attorney sue you". My smart@@@ response was always "Seriously you have your OWN attorney, wow that's cool. How does that work, does he/she live with you, or does he/she just appear out of thin air when you call. I might want to get one also, did you buy him/her new or used?? Is there much upkeep on them??? By this point I'm usually hearing a click and dial tone.


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## unpopular

No attorney is going to take this case. Even if they had cause, which they don't (in my non-attorney, total BS opinion) there's isn't enough damages to make it worth their time - ask yourself: do you make as much as a lawyer?

Hell. Do you make as much as a paralegal?!

I think your customer has been watching too much Judge Judy.


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## KmH

It may be that the cost of the job was less than the maximum amount for filing in small claims court, where ever the OP may be on planet Earth.

In that case the plaintiffs would not need a lawyer, at least in court.


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## ashleykaryl

I haven't read the entire thread, so I'll merely say I'm glad I don't shoot weddings. There have been plenty of late payers with commercial assignments for advertising or editorial, which is bad enough, but no threats of legal action. 

I have no idea whether the pictures are any good or not, but on face value some of those claims sound highly tenuous. I think it's likely they are just looking for ways to get the wedding photos for free.


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## Derrel

ashleykaryl said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, so I'll merely say I'm glad I don't shoot weddings. There have been plenty of late payers with commercial assignments for advertising or editorial, which is bad enough, but no threats of legal action.
> 
> I have no idea whether the pictures are any good or not, but on face value some of those claims sound highly tenuous. I think it's likely they are just looking for ways to* get the wedding photos for free*.



Yeah, sounds to me a lot like folks trying to as ashleykaryl writes, "*get the wedding photos for free". *Just something about this whole deal sounds sketchy.

*edit to correct spelling of ashleykaryl, added the second y to the name


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## ashleykaryl

An afterthought, but if the OP can find _any trace_ of the images being used by _anybody_ from the wedding, whether on Facebook or anywhere else it's a slam-dunk with no further discussion.

He could insist on full payment with no excuses or turn around and threaten legal action for breach of copyright for a whole lot more. It might be a clever move to register the images now with with the US Copyright office, though it might ruin their honeymoon...


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## Scoody

Seems tp me that you are in the right, though the 2 minutes late thing looks bad and very unprofessional.  For weddings and quinceaneras I usually show up at least an hour and a half early to shoot the table decorations, cake, venue and such with little distractions.  My wife who is my assistant usually shows up earlier than that to scout out good locations and go over final details with the clients.


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## The_Traveler

I'm just echoing what others said.

Being late is a huge problem, letting them know that you're on the way really doesn't mitigate the problem. 
When I did events, I was there early, just in case. I've had room changes, power problems, drunken subjects. 
Your problem shouldn't be the clients problem

What is missing from the contract is the requirement for a shot list plus someone from the wedding party who is responsible to get the people in front of the camera or you to them.  a *huge* miss. I don't remember everyone, who goes with who, etc. 

Giving them free stuff is a pretty weak strategy and is too big an admission. 
IMO, you skrewed the pooch on this one, give them the money back, get them to sign a waiver relinquishing any claims and learn from it.


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## smoke665

ashleykaryl said:


> An afterthought, but if the OP can find _any trace_ of the images being used by _anybody_ from the wedding,



I love the TV show Judge Judy, primarily because she's a crusty old gal. I remember one of her rulings. "If you go into a restaurant and order a hamburger. If you don't like it send it back, but you can't eat the burger  then claim it wasn't any good and refuse to pay".


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## Designer

Notice how my posts reflect my skepticism of the OP's claims, and someone else appears to be skeptical of the client's claims.  I'm sure there are some clients who make a practice of trying to cheat the contractor, just as I see some contractors who have failed to deliver.

I am all in favor of an entrepreneur getting paid what he is due for a job well done, but if said entrepreneur seems to have not fulfilled his obligations (surmised from his own account) then I sympathize more with the client.  

I have been a customer who has not received full value of services delivered, so I understand how that might happen.  Having heard only one side of this story, we each form our opinion of both parties based on our experience and what we can divine from it.  

It is possible that the whole story told impartially would place the situation somewhere in the middle.


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## Designer

smoke665 said:


> I love the TV show Judge Judy, primarily because she's a crusty old gal. I remember one of her rulings. "If you go into a restaurant and order a hamburger. If you don't like it send it back, but you can't eat the burger  then claim it wasn't any good and refuse to pay".


In the case of an omelette containing egg shells, you might not find the shell fragments until part way through.

  When MLW called the manager's attention to the problem, he looked at the omelette and decided that she had already eaten half, therefore was entitled to a half price discount.  

We've never been back.


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## The_Traveler

Your Wedding-Day Shot List

85 Great Wedding Photo Suggestions


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## vintagesnaps

Seems like since you've been doing this for some time maybe it would help to take a look at your procedures, contracts, etc. and do some updating. Try American Society of Media Photographers - Homepage or PPA for resources. 

You might need to get this resolved with this client as best you can (as going to court won't probably be worth the time trouble and expense) and since mistakes were made in arrival time, etc. work out a refund as needed. Then figure out from now on what guidelines you want to establish (such as if it's worth it to take off work early for a friend of a friend/client type thing). 

Get it worked out with this client, live and learn, make some adjustments for the future, and life goes on.


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