# Headshots and photo rights



## Diddy2theJJ (Apr 6, 2010)

I know these get brought up alot on here, but i didn't see anything about headshots.

A client wants some simple headshots done for her real estate business and I'm only charging $25 for the session. She's now wondering about how much it would be buy the rights to the photograph so she could use it for brochures, business cards, website, billboard etc. 

I have no idea what would be a fair price for this, but if it's a good price that's fairly low i think it could lead to others coming to me for this as well.

What do you guys think is fair?


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## flyingember (Apr 6, 2010)

license them.  come up with a price for that


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## Big Mike (Apr 6, 2010)

> but if it's a good price that's fairly low i think it could lead to others coming to me for this as well.


Possibly...but do you want a lot of others coming to you and paying you peanuts?  Basically doing a lot of work for little money.
Or would you rather work toward the goal of doing less work for more money (or the same work for a whole lot of money)?  

My point is: don't undersell yourself.  Raising your prices later, when you have more experience, isn't as easy as it sounds...especially if you have a client base who knows you as 'the cheap photographer'.


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## bennielou (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, first of all, why are you charging 25 bucks?  Seriously, I assume you have spent big bucks on gear, maybe ads, walking around promoting yourself....do you honestly feel you are worth this tiny bit of money?  Don't you have to drive to them?  Wear and tear on your car?  I could go on and on.

Don't you believe in your work?  Don't you believe you can compete?

So don't do that anymore.   That's just crazy.

What I charge is $350 for 20 photos.  I don't know what your skill level is, so maybe charge a bit more or less.  But $25 bucks is nuts.


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## bennielou (Apr 6, 2010)

Big Mike said:


> > but if it's a good price that's fairly low i think it could lead to others coming to me for this as well.
> 
> 
> Possibly...but do you want a lot of others coming to you and paying you peanuts? Basically doing a lot of work for little money.
> ...


 
Yeah, being the el chepo photog sucks.  I've met some of them and have talked to them and they biatch, and biatch about how they can't pay thier bills.

Hello?

Photography can be a tough business, especially when you are in a huge city with lots and lots of competitors.  It's not easy.

So many people buy a camera at Christmas and by Easter they are pro photogs.  People get the difference.  And they also don't "value" cheap.  In fact they are going to be harder on you and want more.  Just something I know from doing this forever.  The el cheapos want the world.  Those that pay good money respect you.


But lets talk about this further.  Do you understand how under pricing effects the whole community?  I assume you want to make good money, eventually, right?

You can't do it the way you are going.  You will always be the "cheap photog".  That's not good.

And while you are at it, you are devaluating really good photogs, who I assume you want to eventually get to.  You want to make lots and lots of money.

So, just assuming by your pricing, (as your clients will) you don't do a super fantastic job.  But you are cheap so they really aren't losing any money.  They can try it out for practically free and if they hate it they can find someone else.

So where does that get you?

And where does it put full time photographers who take an great pride in their work? 

Think about it.


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## Big Mike (Apr 6, 2010)

> Ok, first of all, why are you charging 25 bucks? Seriously, I assume you have spent big bucks on gear, maybe ads, walking around promoting yourself....do you honestly feel you are worth this tiny bit of money? Don't you have to drive to them? Wear and tear on your car? I could go on and on.
> 
> Don't you believe in your work? Don't you believe you can compete?
> 
> ...



Charging $25 for the session is fine, as long as you can make up for it on the back end.
Which is what they are asking about.  
Heck, shoot for free...if you can sell the photos for $500, $1000 or whatever.


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## Diddy2theJJ (Apr 6, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe I should've defined "headshot" further. She wants one photo of her in front of a background for her business cards etc.  She would be driving to me, and i would only shoot 10-15 photos to have different smiles to choose from and some different crops. Pretty simple.

I completely understand what you guys are talking about with undercharging, and I don't want to do that as, like you mentioned, it doesn't do me any good and it doesn't to the whole community any good either.

But for taking a few photos with a simple backdrop and light setup that won't take more than 15 minutes, $25 seems acceptable. For sitting fees during portrait sessions etc I charge more, and charge a fair amount for weddings/engagement etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 15 minutes worth of work.....$25 is pretty good.

But I'm still not sure what do do about giving her the rights to the photograph.


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## KmH (Apr 6, 2010)

Diddy2theJJ said:


> I know these get brought up alot on here, but i didn't see anything about headshots.
> 
> A client wants some simple headshots done for her real estate business and I'm only charging $25 for the session. She's now wondering about how much it would be buy the rights to the photograph so she could use it for brochures, business cards, website, billboard etc.
> 
> ...


This falls under the catergory of commercial photography.

Be aware: _When an inexperienced business person does business with an experienced business person, the inexperienced business person usually gets some expensive experience._

$25 is a very attractive session fee, to the real estate business owner.

It's not likely you will actually make money at $25 for the session. It's probable you have non-reimbursed expenses you're not taking into consideration.

Do you know how much the real estate business charges to list/sell a home or a business?

It sounds like you'll be shoooting just one person? 

Here are some figures for guidance:

For just business cards $150 a year, per person
For use on the web site another $250 per year, per person.
For a brochure it would depend how many are going to be printed, what size the images would be, and where in the brochure but, $250 minumum.
For billboards the same thing. How many billboards? Just 1? Minimum $250 a year.

So for all 4 uses at minimal usage, plus the session fee figure a minimum charge of $1000.

Pricing guidelines vary a bit geographically and there is software that many commercial shooters use to help them calculate their pricing.

Probably the most used is Cradocs *fotoQuote Pro 6* www.cradoc.com.

As far as use licensing, you will find both pricing and licensing tutorials at www.asmp.org (American Society of Media Photographers)


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## KmH (Apr 6, 2010)

Diddy2theJJ said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 15 minutes worth of work.....$25 is pretty good.


Where do you get 15 minutes?

You spent time speaking with the client and setting the appointment. You'll be spending time setting up, checking your gear before the shoot.

After the shoot you'll be looking at the 10-15 photos, doing some PP and presenting the poofs to her so she can pick 'the one', or burning them to a disc.

In the mean time you've spent time posting your query here, replying, and hopefully spending time looking a fotoQuote Pro 6 and visiting asmp.org to get at least an acquaintance with what licensing is about.

Sounds like more than 15 minutes to me.


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## gsgary (Apr 6, 2010)

I wouldn't even set my alarm clock for $25  plus i wouldn't want anymore work at that rate, the problem you will have is putting your prices up


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## ghpham (Apr 6, 2010)

I believe many start up photographer needs to take a crash course in how to run a successful business.  Anyhoo.....KmH makes alot of sense.


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## pbelarge (Apr 7, 2010)

Diddy
Real estate companies generally get from 4%-6% of the sale of the house.

Where I live the average house is selling at $275,000.00 in approximately 8-10 months. The realitor will realize approximately 16,500.00. They generally split the fee with the associate who sells the house, so, $8,250.00. 
The company sells 48 properties a year (4/month).
That is $396,000.00 


And you want to sell your photo for $25.00. Do you see the irony?



Good business people learn to sell themselves and their services. Tell her how your shot of her will help her make a lot more money, it will flatter her and show people how professional she is. Never start the conversation with how much it will cost them...but how much it can help them/their business.

For $25, stand her in front of a tree and make sure the tree comes right out of the top of her head.


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## SusanMart (Apr 7, 2010)

KmH said:


> $25 is a very attractive session fee, to the real estate business owner.
> 
> It's not likely you will actually make money at $25 for the session. It's probable you have non-reimbursed expenses you're not taking into consideration.
> Do you know how much the real estate business charges to list/sell a home or a business?....



I think these are great tips for you
One thing is when you deal with students and another when with business people, esp real estate business....

yeah, just keep in mind that once you set your price, it'll be difficult to modify it.
Think about your priceless work and time!


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## Diddy2theJJ (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks so much guys. I agree...a beginner course in the business side of photography would be very helpful.  I feel like right now I'm not very well educated in the business end of things and I always feel like i'm charging too much...but I need to get over that!


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## KmH (Apr 7, 2010)

You know your pricing is just right when 1/3 of your prospects turn blue and start a choking fit when you tell them the price. :thumbup:


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## Christie Photo (Apr 7, 2010)

Diddy2theJJ said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 15 minutes worth of work.....$25 is pretty good.



Yeah...  that part is OK.  But then there's the part where you open a file, process it, do a bit of retouching and prepare it for printing.  That should be good for another $30 or so.



Diddy2theJJ said:


> But I'm still not sure what do do about giving her the rights to the photograph.



If she can't USE the photo, then it's just plain silly for her to do it.

What I do is offer a "business session" for $85.  I'll make 810 exposures, I select the best view, do general retouching and supply a file by email suitable for business card printing or press release.  It's like a glorified passport session with a small file instead or prints.

-Pete


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## Diddy2theJJ (Apr 7, 2010)

KmH said:


> You know your pricing is just right when 1/3 of your prospects turn blue and start a choking fit when you tell them the price. :thumbup:



Haha...i will remember that!


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