# New & Already Venting



## NRP_Studios (Jan 29, 2013)

Okay, so I am not new to photography, however I am new to this sight. I wanted to ask the opinions of other photographers. I did a shoot a month ago for a very demanding client. (RED FLAG ALERT) They didn't "like" any of the other photogs work in town so they called me up (500 miles away). I live in NE but I am from CO so I "didn't mind" making the travel. I talked myself into thinking it was a vacation with family rather than work. I was wrong. They Asked for high use of HDR and Digitally Enhanced effects. I'm talking about taking the original photo and making it look absolutely nothing like the original. I suffered through numerous phone calls, emails, messages, you name it. The people were never satisfied with what I produced. Hours were spend in photoshop, online researching "how to's". FINALLY I produced ONE photo of the 300 taken, that they "LIKED". I let them post it to their website and social networks and they got raving reviews and my social network "likes" went up. However I randomly stopped the site and noticed my work was re-edited. Football jerseys were added to all the people in the photo. OMG I about died. Although it was not a "bad" photoshop of Jerseys it was still hard to cope with the fact that I worked like a dog to get them something they liked, and they just threw some other effects over it and posted it to their site. I am VERY passive (not proud of it) and don't know how to handle the situation. Note: the people who ordered this session are very well known in the community. How should I handle it? Yes I work with contracts, however I gave them a copyright rather than a print release. I can attach the form if need be. However, should I suck it up as a learning lesson?


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## The_Traveler (Jan 29, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> Yes I work with contracts, however I gave them a copyright rather than a print release.



Nothing to suck up.
You gave them the copyright; it's not your picture anymore.


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## Overread (Jan 29, 2013)

On the one hand popular work that isn't your own but is being advertised as your own could be a pain as it would be miss-representing your own work and style.

That said check the contract, have you got the contract protections in place to defend against such a situation as this? If you have then you can consider using them, if not then I'd consider sucking it up and learning from the experience and modifying your future contracts. 

Also with the client already being a heavy investment in time and stress and being known to be a difficult client I would be willing to say that causing more trouble could just backfire into a very long and drawn out series of problems - just lumping more stress onto things. In that light I'd just say take the hit and move on - there will be other clients and more work and if you're already well established it shouldn't be a concern. 

If you really are worried about the matter you could always request that they put a footnote under the edited photo to state that "Photo taken by *your name* and edited by *their name*". That would at least be the least invasive way to ensure that they are not misrepresenting you.



Edit - I missed the copyright point - in light of that my last point is about the only one you can request; otherwise you gave them the photo and the rights to it; its theirs and they can adjust it however they want.


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## Light Guru (Jan 29, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> don't know how to handle the situation.





NRP_Studios said:


> I gave them a copyright rather than a print release.



You gave them copyright.  They can do what ever they want with it. 

Why bother calling then and asking them to change it, you gave them copyright so they CAN change it if they want.


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## NRP_Studios (Jan 29, 2013)

Thank you all for your advice. I really messed up by giving them a copyright release rather than a print release. I was in the "overwhelmed, just please them mode." Yesterday they called me telling me they wanted a re-shoot free of charge. Right after that they wanted me to re-shoot their wedding photos, as they didn't like how the photog they hired shot their wedding three years ago. They "love" my vision. My heart is telling me to just deny the request politely and move on.

- Just read over my contract and unfortunately I never mention that they can not edit my photos :/ **Making up a new contract that is clearer.


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## cwcaesar (Jan 29, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> My heart is telling me to just deny the request politely and move on.



I would listen to your heart.  Just my opinion.  Unless they are paying you handsomly.  Either way, it sounds like more of a headache than you really want to deal with.


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## joshua_ (Jan 29, 2013)

NRP_Studios, 

I have nothing real to add, but wanted to say I'm sorry for how this has gone for you.  

The image of the little girl is great!


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## jake337 (Jan 29, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> Thank you all for your advice. I really messed up by giving them a copyright release rather than a print release. I was in the "overwhelmed, just please them mode." Yesterday they called me telling me they wanted a re-shoot free of charge. Right after that they wanted me to re-shoot their wedding photos, as they didn't like how the photog they hired shot their wedding three years ago. They "love" my vision. My heart is telling me to just deny the request politely and move on.
> 
> - Just read over my contract and unfortunately I never mention that they can not edit my photos :/ **Making up a new contract that is clearer.



Why would they ask for a re-shoot free of charge??????


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## NRP_Studios (Jan 29, 2013)

Not sure how to tag, but Jake, they said they didn't really like how the whole shoot turned out due to having a shooting time of 6am (they choose the time), so they want a re-shoot in the afternoon. They said, "my camera could probably produce better work if  there was more light out." I taught my camera all it knows


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## NRP_Studios (Jan 29, 2013)

@Jake- Sorry the re-shoot of the wedding was because they didn't like the photos that the photog they hired produced. Not sure if I said it right, however they also wanted a re-shoot of my session because they only got a few photos that they liked out of the session so they want more. I hope I am wording this right.


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## pgriz (Jan 29, 2013)

One.  Successful business people CHOOSE their customers.  Think about the characteristics of a "good" customer, and then think about the "bad" customer. 
Two.  Redo your contract.  But you already know that.  Make it clear that you NOT licensing anyone the unlimited rights to the image, but specific rights associated with specific images.
Three.  Tell them that the session you had with them was a one-time thing.  Any subsequent engagement will have to have a written agreement with a limit on the time you spend.  I have a contracting business, and people are always asking my crew for "oh, this is just a little thing for you to do...".  I've got that covered in my formal agreement with each customer, where there is a detailed list of materials that will be supplied, and the tasks that we will do, with everything that is NOT on the detailed list being charged at $xxx per manhour.  My foreman knows the routine - each time he gets the request, he mentions that my minimum charge for extra work is about $200, and every manhour after the initial hour is $80.  Plus taxes.  Those that want it badly enough, get a visit from me with an addendum to the contract, and they sign the authorization before we do any extra work.  This approach tends to keep the requests for "free" stuff at a manageable level.


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## bratkinson (Jan 30, 2013)

Reshoot? Free? Redo a 3 years ago wedding???

I'd start at $20,000 and go UP from there! Although I don't do professional photography, it's very obvious that you spent a significant amount of time Photoshopping the daylights out of their pictures only to get laughed at. And then to significantly alter the ONE they liked?  

In my estimation, HDR and heavy-duty Photoshop is something individuals do to please themselves with their OWN photographs.  THEY have all the time in the world to spend editting/altering. Someone taking pictures for a living doesn't. Tell 'em to go buy their own 5D3, some L lenses, and take their own pictures to do with as they please.  

In my book, they're not worth the aggrevation, the 500 mile trip, or the PITA they really are! Let them be someone elses' problem!


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## gsgary (Jan 30, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> Thank you all for your advice. I really messed up by giving them a copyright release rather than a print release. I was in the "overwhelmed, just please them mode." Yesterday they called me telling me they wanted a re-shoot free of charge. Right after that they wanted me to re-shoot their wedding photos, as they didn't like how the photog they hired shot their wedding three years ago. They "love" my vision. My heart is telling me to just deny the request politely and move on.
> 
> - Just read over my contract and unfortunately I never mention that they can not edit my photos :/ **Making up a new contract that is clearer.



Tell them to **** off


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## Benco (Jan 30, 2013)

Sounds like a client from hell, I'm not a pro photographer but I've had people like this approach me about commissioned art, they never know what they want but are also never satisfied, you end up in some sort of bizarre guessing game with them providing increasingly useless direction. 

It's not worth it.


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## BrianV (Jan 30, 2013)

Sounds like they need you more than you need them, but they are clueless about that fact.

Reshooting a wedding performed three years ago because they did not like the originals. Wow.

Pinky to Lip, "One MEEELLIONNN Dollars"...


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## nycphotography (Jan 30, 2013)

Just post up the original on your site, plus your own edit. then add their version as "client directed editorial version".  I'm assuming it was commercial work, so call their version "as published".

Everyone understands that you don't control how the client interprets commercial work once you're done with it.


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## KmH (Jan 30, 2013)

+1 on pgriz's comments. The OP used some poor business practices which was a major part of the problem.
It is a good business practice to have a qualified attorney check to make sure your contract covers all the necessary bases.

From a legal perspective, there is no copyright release. Note that copyright law is federal law.

There *is* a copyright transfer.

Copyright is a bundle of rights. A photographer can retain all the rights to images they make while granting partial usage of copyright by someone else. The photographer can limit the allowed use in an astonishing variety of ways including limiting the length of time any usage privileges apply. The document that spells out those provisions is known as a use license. What a lot of retail photographers call a 'print release' is in fact a use license.



> http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf
> *Transfer of Copyright*
> 
> Any or all of the copyright owners exclusive rights or any subdivision of those rights may be transferred, but the transfer of exclusive rights is not valid unless that transfer is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owners duly authorized agent. Transfer of a right on a nonexclusive basis does not require a written agreement.
> ...


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## Mully (Jan 30, 2013)

We have ll had the client from hell.... since you gave away the farm the cows go with it .  I would walk away graciously and just suck it up, be glad it is over and say a prayer for the next victim.


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## GypsieGlen (Jan 30, 2013)

I have worked for wealthy, influential people a lot and once in a while you get a lemon. My nature is to try to please a client no matter what. With the wrong client that is a recipe for disaster. It,s obvious you are not being compensated for your effort. You cannot sustain a business without a reasonable income for the time you spend. More importantly, for someone that takes pride in their work, the emotional toll is clearly not worth it. Be selective, find good clients, and treat them like gold (they may bring you more good clients).  You will be happier, more creative, and ultimately make more money. I would explain to them that from your experience you feel that your style is not a good fit for them and you want them to be happy. Another option that many businesses use is a P.I.T.A. charge in their pricing (if I make this $$$ it is = to the grief). Just know going in they will not be happy, and it will be very stressfull, and make sure you are running your business not them.


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## 12sndsgood (Jan 30, 2013)

I would politly decline doing any work with them again.  they liked your vision. but only liked one photo and then changed that one photo to how they wanted it. It's not worth your time and trouble to please these people.


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## nycphotography (Jan 30, 2013)

EGADS, I just tread the rest of this and realized it's really spoiled rich people and not a commercial client.

In this case, either they pay your business rates, or they find someone else.  And if no amount of money is worth the grief, then just explain that you were available because you were already going to be in the area on vacation, but that you can't really schedule time like that going forward.

If they "insist" you can "reluctantly" tell them what the (exorbitant) costs would be for you to do that.   Or you can respectfully decline.


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## Tamgerine (Jan 30, 2013)

A great deal has already been covered by others, but I think one of the major things that stand out to me in this case (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you went out of your way to provide a service you did not already provide (photo compositing, major post-production and editing). You yourself said you had to spend hours learning how to do the new tasks in Photoshop. When they began requesting things that you don't normally offer as a business, why did you say you would do them? It seems like it caused you a lot of time and effort in the end for a poor result. 

It is kind of hard to get the timeline of things right as well. It sounds to me like you took the photograph, and afterward they made these requests. If this is true you need to manage your client expectations better. Did you travel some 500 miles without knowing the end result of what the client wanted? 

I assume you have a portfolio that they saw before hiring you. Why did they want something that was strikingly different than what you were already showcasing? Why did they love your vision, and then request something very different that it doesn't seem you do? What you produced should have been consistent with what you showcase. If they request something different, you should have shut that down right away. There are a lot of holes in this to me.



> I live in NE but I am from CO so I "didn't mind" making the travel. I talked myself into thinking it was a vacation with family rather than work. ​




Also, I hope by "didn't mind" you mean that you were paid enough for your travel costs to not mind. 

I don't know where you're at in your business, but I see a lot of people who get so attached to the idea that someone is paying them money for their work that they go into overdrive trying to please a client that wants this, and wants that, and extra this, and some of those, and by the time the job is over and done with the photographer is out time and money. The job ended up costing them.

Please remember that your time is valuable. The time you spent traveling to this job, the time you spent trying to learn new editing techniques, the time you spent on the phone with them. Your time is not free. Many people don't realize that they can spend time on things that bring them money. Anything you spend your time on means you can't spend that time on something else. What is in your best interest to spend your time on? 

As for what you should do, I myself would not work with these clients. I'm not going to go out of my way to spend time learning new photoshop things for this specific client. I'm going to spend that valuable time on customers who want what I know how to do and already offer. ​


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## Heitz (Jan 30, 2013)

Of course its also possible that no photographer within 500 miles of them would dare work with them.  They had to go outside their sphere of crap to find someone who didn't know them.


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## andywag (Jan 31, 2013)

_*"however I gave them a copyright"*_

why why why why why why?????? and again why did you
a. "give" them copyright
b. post this to complain about what they have done to a photo which YOU GAVE them the rights to do with whatever they want to do
?

Yes, Suck it up as a learning experience. Learn that if someone 500 miles away cannot find a photographer they like closer than you are that maybe that should raise a flag and learn not to give copyright away.
Also learn how to properly manage a client and client expectations.


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## andywag (Jan 31, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> Thank you all for your advice. I really messed up by giving them a copyright release rather than a print release. I was in the "overwhelmed, just please them mode." Yesterday they called me telling me they wanted a re-shoot free of charge. Right after that they wanted me to re-shoot their wedding photos, as they didn't like how the photog they hired shot their wedding three years ago. They "love" my vision. My heart is telling me to just deny the request politely and move on.
> 
> - Just read over my contract and unfortunately I never mention that they can not edit my photos :/ **Making up a new contract that is clearer.




Whatever your "heart" is saying, your head should be saying and very very loudly - "stay the heck away from this "client" "

What you need in your contract is that copyright remains and always will remain with you.


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## CCericola (Jan 31, 2013)

You transferred copyrights to them so now it is their photo. 
On a side note, this forum is pretty high ranking on google search and the business district is not private so if you talk smack about clients they can find out. Especially if you are using your real name or studio name.


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## kathyt (Jan 31, 2013)

Don't EVER sell a copyright unless you will be making enough money to not give a s**t what they do with it. I would move on.


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## KmH (Jan 31, 2013)

It is not clear that any copyrights were transfered, or sold.


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## vfotog (Feb 3, 2013)

NRP_Studios said:


> I don't think the pay is worth the headache. I will attach one of the photos I provided them. This photo was one that was laughed at (they literally made fun of it). I had to Google how to add flames for this session! (ps that is not my watermark on the photo I added their watermark for social media purposes (maybe this whole deal is messed up) However, I don't know if I am up to asking Google about how much more stuff I can add! Anyways I will include what I sent to them, along with a photo of what I originally produce, (portrait photography).View attachment 34420View attachment 34421




umm, if you really did give them the copyright, it's unlikely you have the right to publish that image here. reread the paperwork, and delete the image if necessary.


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## NRP_Studios (Feb 5, 2013)

Thank you all for your feedback


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 5, 2013)

Dealing with clients like  is what takes the life out of photographers.  This is really one of those, "it's just not worth it" moments.  Regardless of what kind of money you could make from these clients the stress and stain these types haved placed on you takes too much out.


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