# Old Negative Care



## Ray H (May 17, 2020)

I have a large batch of 1920's large format negatives. They are abt 7 x 11mm.  I took an insignificant one to experiment cleaning. I ran it under water and used some hand soap to clean it and rinsed it with water. After  I was done I noticed that the surface of it was sticky and it seemed flimsier than before. It dried fine but has a tendency to curl. It came out just fine but the stickiness worries me. Has any one had experience with this and is it OK clean them this way? Is there a better way? Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions.    Ray


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## compur (May 17, 2020)

7x11*mm *large format negatives? Do you mean 7x11*cm*?

The stickiness is the gelatin in the emulsion. It absorbs water and gets sticky until thoroughly dried.

There are commercially available film cleaning solutions easily found by search.


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## webestang64 (May 17, 2020)

You might also want to use a Photo-Flo solution after the washing. Some people use a drop of dish washing liquid in about 2 liters of distilled water (not my first choice but it will work).


Photo-Flo....
Kodak Photo-Flo 200 Solution (16 oz)


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## vintagesnaps (May 17, 2020)

That's what I was thinking, you could also try Home | Freestyle Photographic Supplies for supplies. I don't know if it would help but I'd probably try the one you already washed in the photo flo and see if that gets rid of the stickiness?

If you need to get a darkroom tray large enough for the negatives they can be found fairly cheap. (Freestyle should have new ones, Pittsburgh Camera Exchange has used/vintage and on ebay their seller name is onlinephotostuff ).

How dusty/dirty are these negatives? I don't do large format but with smaller format negatives I usually use a rocket blower, then as needed a Besleler dust gun. With that you using a quick sweeping motion down the length of the film/negatives, maybe a coupl'a three times. Not sure which is the better option for larger format. Search Results | Freestyle Photographic Supplies 

Then when they're dry put them in clear plastic sleeves made to store negatives. Any of the places mentioned, or Adorama, should have some.


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## terri (May 17, 2020)

Why not just stick to actual film cleaner?







It's available at Freestyle.   4 ounces will go a long way, just soak a Pec pad or similar lint-free cleaning cloth.   I'd hesitate before soaking negatives that old and seeing a sticky problem like that.   With a film cleaner like this, first use compressed air to remove surface lint and debris, soak the Pec pad and wipe carefully.


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## vintagesnaps (May 17, 2020)

I've never used that, but Edwal rings a bell - we have a winner!


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## terri (May 17, 2020)

vintagesnaps said:


> I've never used that, but Edwal rings a bell - we have a winner!


   Edwal makes a lot of products, among them a negative "scratch filler" that is said to actually work.   I have it, but haven't used it.   But I have used this film cleaner and can attest to it.  

Of course, there are variables in how grimy and old the OP's negs are, leading to the bath suggestion.   But with the sticky residue he described, I'd be inclined not to do that again until I tried another way.


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## webestang64 (May 17, 2020)

terri said:


> negative "scratch filler"



In a working lab that is called "nose grease". Used my natural fluids for decades printing scratched negs.


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## terri (May 17, 2020)

webestang64 said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > negative "scratch filler"
> ...


The "nose grease" is a term I've heard before!   Like I said, I've never tried to fill in a scratch before, naturally or with a product.  I'm guessing it actually works?


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## webestang64 (May 18, 2020)

terri said:


> I'm guessing it actually works?



Sure does. Helps I'm a greasy Italian/American.  Edwal scratch filler does as well, I used a  bottle way back in the 90's. 
Never used Edwal film cleaner, I've used Kodak's but it stinks real bad.


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## Ray H (May 22, 2020)

I guess my greatest concern is the stickiness. I can clean them but am I ruining these great old negatives in the process. I have some pec 12 on order and will try that. A photo of my Grandmother behind the wheel. abt early 20's.


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## vintagesnaps (May 22, 2020)

Whoa, stop right there - you've said negatives but this looks like a print. Are all the photos printed on paper like this? Then you can't do with prints what can be done with negatives. Prints are on paper.

Don't get water on a print, at all, keep it dry. 

I don't know what soap may do but water will ruin the finish/the surface. But since these would have been done on light senstive photo paper and developed in photo chemistry, the darkened parts of the images are more or less permanent. They could fade in time but the image should mostly still be there and won't just rinse off. 

I haven't tried yet with old family photos but with my own B&W darkroom prints if just the surface (shiny part) got wet and damaged, I'd run it thru fixer (not water, liquid fixer); that will restore the gloss. But it would be a matter of if I'd want to try it with an older photograph or leave well enough alone. And you'd have to know how to 'fix' and squeegee prints, etc. This would be for 'modern' photos that used photo paper & fixer comparable to what is still used today, which could include the era of that car. There were other photo processes like tintypes that I wouldn't attempt running them thru fixer like I've done with prints on photo paper.

This one looks fairly deteriorated but usable. Usually in restoration I think as little as necessary is done. I'd think about putting it behind a mat with an oval opening so you can see the cool car and them sitting in it, and not so much of the background where there's more deterioration. Or maybe a standard rectangular mat if you could place the photo to show mostly them in the car with the house and keep the roof and trees behind the mat. The good thing is the part of the photo with them seems in better shape than the trees, etc. in the background. 

Other than a blower to blow off dust, or maybe a very very _very_ soft brush intended for this purpose, I'm not sure what else you can do. Of course you could scan them and make adjustments in photoshop (or whatever) to the digital copies and then reprint them for display. 

This one is certainly salvageable and not the worst I've seen. To me they're vintage and part of the history of the photos is the worn, faded look that gives the feel of the time period in photos taken long ago.


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## Ray H (May 24, 2020)

This pic is of the print but it's the neg's im concerned about


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## Ray H (May 24, 2020)

Heres the Negative


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## vintagesnaps (May 24, 2020)

I see... looks like it's scratched/scraped. Although some of it could be flare from the sun. So it looks like you'll need to use the scratch filler already mentioned. If that doesn't completely fill in the scratches then it would look somewhat like flare so it would probably look fine. It's old and it's going to probably look old, I don't know that you could restore it in this condition to look good as new.


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## webestang64 (May 25, 2020)

Or repair the scan in Photoshop. If you print these negs in the darkroom (I recommend fiber paper), using "nose grease" any left over spots/scratches can be taken care with Spot-All (and "burn-in" that sun flare). Which if skilled enough can also be used to spot touch the neg as well.

Marshall Retouching Spot-All Liquid B&W Retouching Dye (Neutral Black, 1/2 oz)


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## sachapp464 (Sep 15, 2021)

Ray H said:


> I have a large batch of 1920's large format negatives. They are abt 7 x 11mm.  I took an insignificant one to experiment cleaning. I ran it under water and used some hand soap to clean it and rinsed it with water. After I was done I noticed that the surface of it was sticky and it seemed flimsier than before. It dried fine but has a tendency to curl. It came out just fine but the stickiness worries me. Has any one had experience with this and is it OK clean them this way? Is there a better way? Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions.    Ray


Did you ever figure out the deal with the stickiness? I'm in the same boat. I have a number of medium and larger format negatives from the '00's to the 30's. They're still very pliable but they've been stored poorly and a lot of them were stuck together. So far I've been able to unstick most of them with minimal damage and thought I'd wash them to try to remove some caked on debris. I tried test-washing a negative that was way out of focus anyway, and the emulsion started to dissolve, but not only that, the base side was super sticky like there was a coating on it. I know now of course not to wash these negatives, but I'm wondering if even film cleaner would be a bad idea. What did you end up doing? Thanks!


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## Rickbb (Sep 16, 2021)

Simply put, do not wash with water and soap. Use film cleaner, it's a solvent that will not "re-wet", (read that as soften), the emulsion and dries quickly.

Any handling of a water wet film will greatly increase the likely hood of damage. 

If there is caked on debris and they are very stuck, they may be beyond saving. Soak in film cleaner and see what happens, but I'd totally avoid soap/water on them if at all possible.

If you have to try the soap and water, treat them like raw film being developed for the first time. Lots of rinsing, photo flo solution to reduce water spots, etc.


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## sachapp464 (Sep 16, 2021)

Rickbb said:


> Simply put, do not wash with water and soap. Use film cleaner, it's a solvent that will not "re-wet", (read that as soften), the emulsion and dries quickly.
> 
> Any handling of a water wet film will greatly increase the likely hood of damage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, definitely not going to wash another one but I was wondering about the base side (not the emulsion) stickiness. I don't know if you're old enough to remember black and white polaroid prints, but people used to use some kind of waxy stick to treat polaroid prints. Gotta be honest I was too young to know why. I'm guessing for more permanence and gloss. But anyway, the stickiness reminded me of that. In fact one of the negatives looks like it has some very thin base-side waxy steaks. Very odd. I've never heard of or seen anything like that before. And it being the base side, not sure it makes sense, unless that's why the negatives are still very pliable and not brittle? I'm wondering if, since film cleaners are solvents, those might be a bad idea too... Wondering if anyone knows about whatever waxy/oily treatment or base-side coating these negatives may have had (they are over 100 years old) and if so, how to deal with it?


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## Rickbb (Sep 16, 2021)

100 years ago they didn’t have polyester based film, it was cellulose or such. An organic base that will get sticky when wet. Another reason to avoid getting them wet.


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