# anyone use a mac computer????



## debvath (Oct 25, 2008)

Went looking at computers today.  I really like the Mac.  What are your thoughts as far as doing things with pictures?


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 25, 2008)

For a number of reasons macs are pretty well the standard in the graphics industry and are vastly overrepresented amongst photographers as opposed to the population as a whole.


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## TUX424 (Oct 25, 2008)

ive got a macbook but i really dont use it as much as i would like i rather us a PC
I guess once a PC always a PC


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## usayit (Oct 25, 2008)

There's a lot of us here that use Macs.....  

All of their machines have always served me well... and did not disappoint.



On the other hand, the recently announced macbooks are a great let down.


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## chrisburke (Oct 25, 2008)

i exclusively use mac... i have for 6 years now....  i've got a macbook, an iMac, and a MacMini.... I used PC before I switched,  and I gotta be honest, i'll never use a PC again.  They may be cheaper,  but in the end they are very expensive... service, crashes, viruses, OS reinstalls... a real pain in the neck.   Since i've used mac, i've never had a virus... I've never had to reinstall an OS, I've never had a freeze, I've never had to restart cause something froze up...  its just been a lot less of a headache... HOWEVER, someone out there will say "I use PC, and I've never had any problems" but chances are, most PC users tend to not really be that tech savvy, and they have had many problems with PC.. i've never met someone who regretted switching to mac..


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## ATXshots (Oct 25, 2008)

I LOVE my macbook!!! GET IT...you wont be disappointed :mrgreen:


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## manaheim (Oct 25, 2008)

Macs are nice.  I like PCs better. <shrug>


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## asc (Oct 25, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> i exclusively use mac...  I used PC before I switched,  and I gotta be honest, i'll never use a PC again.  They may be cheaper,  but in the end they are very expensive... service, crashes, viruses, OS reinstalls... a real pain in the neck.   Since i've used mac, i've never had a virus... I've never had to reinstall an OS, I've never had a freeze, I've never had to restart cause something froze up...  its just been a lot less of a headache... HOWEVER, someone out there will say "I use PC, and I've never had any problems" but chances are, most PC users tend to not really be that tech savvy, and they have had many problems with PC.. i've never met someone who regretted switching to mac..



Exactly my story.  Did all kinds of media work on PC.  Got very tired of the maintenance required to keep them running...adware, defrag, virus, regvac etc...

I want to point out the impressive nature that we both can say over years, NEVER multiple times for the things listed above.  I love my macbook and will not use PC anytime in the near future.

As far as photo software...you can use photoshop.  Mac has iPhoto which I use.  Consumer program...good for organizing and basic edits and some level changes.  Offer aperture which is a higher level program.  If you have a mac store in the area, you can ask them to show those programs to you and they'll show you what they can do, as well as answer any questions.

GL...let us know how you go.


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## chrisburke (Oct 25, 2008)

also i'm sure there are many mac users here who can answer questions for you... most mac users that i know, arent beginner users, they know computers, and they know them well (user and tech side)


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## ATXshots (Oct 25, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> also i'm sure there are many mac users here who can answer questions for you... most mac users that i know, arent beginner users, they know computers, and they know them well (user and tech side)



I did not know computers well. I knew basic things...I have learned way more on my mac....even photoshop!


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## Suede (Oct 25, 2008)

About 2 years ago I went from a PC to a Mac and will never go back.


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## debvath (Oct 25, 2008)

How is it as far as photo editing?  Is it limited to what software you can get?  I have to say I was really impressed!


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## asc (Oct 25, 2008)

No limits for software that you can get.
Software (IE: Photoshop) is available for mac platform.

If it's not available for mac platform, you can run windows programs on a mac through several different options.


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## PictureThis (Oct 25, 2008)

I am a student at the art institute and all of my professors, who are also industry professionals, use mac's and only use them. 

In my experience they are faster and run smoother and with less problems than all the PC's that I have ever had. I will never go back to PC's.


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## jwkwd (Oct 26, 2008)

Same with what everybody else says. I do use PC's at home and at work and have a Windows laptop that I carry back and forth. The old mac that I also have at home always seems to be the machine that I use to keep info and data that I don't want to lose.


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## manaheim (Oct 26, 2008)

For the record, I have supported computers for a living for 15 years... I've seen over 30 companies and many thousands of users. Macs and PCs both. I have found just as many end user problems with Macs as PCs, though granted fewer viruses and trojans on macs at least for the moment.  Also granted earlier versions of MacOS were way worse... but then so were earlier versions of Windows.  They both have come a LONG WAY (ignoring Vista.  Vista needs to burn.)

There ARE fewer software titles for Macs, but as some said it's generally something you can "get around" by using another tool, and most of the time major offerings will be available for both platforms... unless you happen to be a gamer, then sometimes you're just not gonna be able to get that title. Not often, but it does happen.

My personal recommendation is if you like the Mac better, then get the Mac and follow best practices for the platform. You'll be fine. If you like the PC better, then get the PC and follow best practices for the platform. You'll be fine.

I find the users that complain the most on both environments tend to be the ones who aren't being that smart... like opening random attachments in email from people they don't know, going to questionable websites, etc.

Good luck!


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## photogmatt (Oct 26, 2008)

Go for the mac, you can always run windows on the machine as well if you really wanted to. Either by using the included bootcamp, or Parallels / VMWare Fusion. Apple builds higher quality machines, and once you get used to OS X there is no reason to even use windows. (This coming from someone who's job it is to administer windows networks)


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## manaheim (Oct 26, 2008)

photogmatt said:


> Apple builds higher quality machines, and once you get used to OS X there is no reason to even use windows. (This coming from someone who's job it is to administer windows networks)


 
This is the kind of comment that drives some of us buggy and spirals these threads off into hell... Apple builds higher quality machines than... who, exactly?  IBM?  Dell?  HP?  The mom & pop shop down the street?  Me cobbling together pieces from top shelf manufacturers?

And define "quality", please...

You really cannot compare Apples and "IBM original PC clone descendants" in this way.


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## chrisburke (Oct 26, 2008)

UGH, i hate that people suggest running windows on your mac.. i know it is something you can do, BUT you will get viruses on the windows partition if you do.  THERE IS NO REASON TO RUN WINDOWS.. any app you need, there is something available mac wise... 

also in regards to "how are they at photo editing"  thats what they are made for.. so the answer is they are awesome.. i run the whole cs3 suite.. and it works great... my photo editing process usually involves lightroom 2 and then photoshop if needed...


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## chrisburke (Oct 26, 2008)

manaheim said:


> I find the users that complain the most on both environments tend to be the ones who aren't being that smart... like opening random attachments in email from people they don't know, going to questionable websites, etc.
> 
> Good luck!



150% agree with this... as I've said in the past on here,  I've been fixing computers for the past 10 years,  and of the thousands of PC's i've fixed 95% of them the problem is one of the following:

The user has put limewire or some other p2p program on their computer for the use of STEALING music (which I dont agree with) these programs are FULL of ad ware, spy ware and viruses (because some people are dicks, and they put viruses on there described under the titles of things you may search for.

Porn.... something else I dont agree with,  but one of the first things I do is check a users cache and temp files, FULL of porn... its always embarassing to a person to say "your computer crashed because its full of viruses from porn.. they get very embarassed.. I just laugh at them for not having something better to do with their time.

Email attachments... spam, unknown names... stuff like that... for what ever reason about 90% of user end users seem to think its ok to open an attachment from "habib" from "isbeckistan" even though they dont know habib... how dumb is that??  But the fact is its true...

As a mac user (and fan boy) I can admit, if windows users used their computers properly, and with some common sense, they would have NO PROBLEMS with their computers, but the fact is, they dont... and thus their computers crap out like crazy... the great thing about mac is,  you can try to screw it up, and you really cant... i mean obviously there are ways,  but its pretty darn hard to do... so th typical user,  who wouldnt know how to mess it up, couldnt.


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## manaheim (Oct 26, 2008)

^^^ yup, agree with everything you said including it being harder to bone a Mac.  It's one of the reasons I've been threatening to put my wife on one... well, that and they're DEAD SEXY and as much as I don't want to _use_ one, I would _love_ to have one in the house.  Such neat little things.  So pretty.


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## chrisburke (Oct 26, 2008)

manaheim said:


> ^^^ yup, agree with everything you said including it being harder to bone a Mac.  It's one of the reasons I've been threatening to put my wife on one... well, that and they're DEAD SEXY and as much as I don't want to _use_ one, I would _love_ to have one in the house.  Such neat little things.  So pretty.



yea, the mac mini i have is for my wife, cause she kept bombing her pc... i got tired of fixing it,... and yes, they are sexy, and the mac mini looks really sharp in my living room next to my multimedia setup


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## cherry30 (Oct 27, 2008)

my brother just got the new 13 inch mac and he is loving it. i also have a lot of friends who switched to mac and they are loving it.


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## zeroskillz (Oct 27, 2008)

I own and use both (Mac and Dell).

As far as what they _do,_
No real difference.
Photoshop runs just as well on the PC as the Mac, as well as all my other Adobe apps.

As far as which I'd chose if I had to chose one, I'd go with Mac. 
Only because it takes far less diligence/work to keep it running properly.

PC's are more crash/virus prone, and take more attention to keep things running smoothly. My Mac I never worry about. 

As far as price goes, you can get a PC far cheaper (but if the same power as a Mac, they're pretty much the same price).

There's nothing wrong with either platform, you'll just need more tech knowledge to keep your PC happy.

HTH
-Ted

Oh and PS, if you get a PC, go with a Dell or comparable. Stay away from the junk at Best Buy etc. Those come preloaded with so much crap it's ridiculous.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 27, 2008)

tsaraleksi said:


> For a number of reasons macs are pretty well the standard in the graphics industry and are vastly overrepresented amongst photographers as opposed to the population as a whole.


 
Some of which are myths and misconceptions...



chrisburke said:


> i exclusively use mac... i have for 6 years now.... i've got a macbook, an iMac, and a MacMini.... I used PC before I switched, and I gotta be honest, i'll never use a PC again. They may be cheaper, but in the end they are very expensive... service, crashes, viruses, OS reinstalls... a real pain in the neck. Since i've used mac, i've never had a virus... I've never had to reinstall an OS, I've never had a freeze, I've never had to restart cause something froze up... its just been a lot less of a headache... HOWEVER, someone out there will say "I use PC, and I've never had any problems" but chances are, most PC users tend to not really be that tech savvy, and they have had many problems with PC.. i've never met someone who regretted switching to mac..


 
I have a Dell notebook that I've had Vista Ultimate on since the first month it was launched. I've had no problems with it what so ever and in fact Adobe PS has crashed less on the Dell than on my MBP. I do like the interface on OS X better, so that's why I use it.

Apple did do something really smart and they're including a lot more in their basic configurations of their machines. They're still expensive though. You can get a PC with the features you want and some of the stuff you don't need and it'll be cheaper nine times out of 10.

But with a Mac, you can use Windows on it and the new notebooks are just plain sweet. No one needs one unless you're running OS X exclusive programs like Logic or Final Cut.

The 13" notebooks are kind of "crappy" for photo editing because of the screen size. The 24" iMac isn't bad. I like the 15" MBP though because I can hook it to the monitor of my choice and the screen is still large enough to use if I have to.

OS X has a lot of convenient features that make it a blast to use, and the fact that programs aren't confined to one window can be a blessing.


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## 40LTD (Oct 27, 2008)

I've used a Mac (OS X) for a few years, and I use XP/Vista daily. I did not use the Mac heavily, but it was a decent machine.

Would i dump my 2 Vista notebooks and XP desktop for a mac? Unlikely, since they...all run perfectly fine without issues. I lean towards Windows mainly because I am more familiar with the OS, and it helps me get things done quickly.

As for defrag, virus scans etc maintenance for windows taking up time, that may have been true in the Win 9X days, but not any longer. For eg, I have Diskeeper 2008 installed on all the Windows machines; it defrags all the drives completely transparently *in the background*, and everything is done *automatically*. No time is wasted on defrag.

AVG anti-virus scans are scheduled for Saturday 0300h, and get executed without any fuss. No time is wasted on Virus scans.

Windows runs fine without any tweaking or messing around, as long as the following 2 conditions are fulfilled
(1) No bloatware/resource hogs on the system (I suppose no OS is immune to poorly written programs)
(2) Decent hardware. Obviously Vista wont run all that well on a P-III with 256Mb RAM, but at the same time, you don't need a quad core, 8GB monster to run it fast either.


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## Flower Child (Oct 27, 2008)

i really like the force quit on the mac. i miss it when im on my pc


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## chrisburke (Oct 27, 2008)

well flower child, there is a force quit on PC as well (crtl+alt+del) its just not as quick as the macs force quit.

as for village idiots comment about the mac book being crappy for photo editing and him liking the 15" better because he can hook it up to a external monitor.. you can do this with the 13" as well.. I use a 13" macbook every day.. in fact I can honestly say i almost NEVER use my iMac... macbook is just more convient.  I use it for editing pictures daily.. creating websites daily, and everything I do on a computer, daily... when I arrive at my office, I set my macbook on my laptop stand, and plug in 3 cables.. one is my USB cable for my Line 6 Toneport UX8,  the other is to my hub, which has things like my external keyboard and mouse, 2 external HD's, a DVD Burner (I got the first generation MacBook base model which doesnt have the DVD burner) also plugged into that hub is my iPhone 3g, and my M-Audio Keystation 88es.. the macbook works great as a day to day computer, and does great with heavy editing.. I use final cut pro almost daily.. I use PSCS3 daily, and all the other CS3 apps daily.. macbook handles them great

and the third cable I plug in is my 19" dell monitor, which is a great monitor for everything I do..

here it is to give you the idea.. this one was taken before i got the m-audio keystation 88







Heres a shot with the keyboard,  its not that great as I took it with my iPhone, and in low lighting, the iPhone camera sucks.


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## goodoneian (Oct 27, 2008)

it's weird how many complaints there are about windows computers getting virus's. i haven't run any kind of anti-virus software in probably three years and i'm yet to have any kind of virus or related problem. and it seems like when i stopped using norton i stopped getting virus's. i could just be lucky though.


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## smithphoto (Oct 27, 2008)

I have a windows desktop at home (self built) and an HP laptop. Both XP pro. Both run photoshop well and I rarely have  bad crashes. Yes it does crash an I do have the occasional issue of having to defrag. The defrags are completely my fault as I'll have three copies of the same thing an delete move rearrange, copy, ect for months without considering the hdd search time.

I've also used macs in the past, primarily for video editing. They are fast, smooth, but I suffered freezes, crashes, and the occasional need for a defrag on it as well. So all I really have to say is they are both versatile, they are both stable, an yes, they are both vulnerable to the end users use. 

In my opinion macs are fantastic for media, while pc's are better at things like, say AUTO cad or crunching numbers program design. I mean the Mac OS is partially designed on a windows machine.  In my opinion it's all simply about which you prefer more. They are both great, and in my opinion neither will let you down if you just treat it right.


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## manaheim (Oct 27, 2008)

goodoneian said:


> it's weird how many complaints there are about windows computers getting virus's. i haven't run any kind of anti-virus software in probably three years and i'm yet to have any kind of virus or related problem. and it seems like when i stopped using norton i stopped getting virus's. i could just be lucky though.


 
It takes a bit of common sense to do this, which a lot of people lack.  I once spent days helping a woman get her machine back up to snuff and educated her on what to do and not to do to keep her machine virus free...

Within days she had disabled the AV I had installed because she wanted to be able to open attachments people sent to her.

YYYYYYYYYYeah.  K.  Good luck then!


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## Atropine (Oct 28, 2008)

tsaraleksi said:


> For a number of reasons macs are pretty well the standard in the graphics industry...


Well, people keep claiming that, and yet I see a definite majority of PCs in my daily work (as a graphic designer and photographer). Why is that? Everyone should know by now that Apple made a big change in their product philosophy for around ten years ago putting a big focus on home users (non professionals) from earlier being mostly for the graphic business. Of course this was made to increase profit from this vastly larger target group. I'm not saying they have abandoned the professionals, they have their MacBook Pro and Mac Pro which still are very good machines.

Back to topic: Stay away from MacBooks and the 20" iMac. The displays in those are pretty poor and you will have a hard time calibrating them.


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## ksmattfish (Oct 28, 2008)

debvath said:


> What are your thoughts as far as doing things with pictures?



You want lots of processing power, lots of ram, lots of hard drive space, and Adobe Photoshop.  Given the same resources Photoshop runs the same on both Mac and PC.  Compare prices of similar power systems, and you will spot the significant difference between Mac and the various popular PC brands.


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## chrisburke (Oct 28, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Back to topic: Stay away from MacBooks and the 20" iMac.



ugh this again... you can plug an external monitor into a macbook,  and calibrating is a breeze if you have the right apps


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## Atropine (Oct 28, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> ugh this again... you can plug an external monitor into a macbook,  and calibrating is a breeze if you have the right apps


Yeah, and you could put a V8 in your Prius... As for the 20" iMac, I am told it uses TN panels which is really poor for graphic work. No calibrating soft- or hardware can change that.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 28, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Yeah, and you could put a V8 in your Prius... As for the 20" iMac, I am told it uses TN panels which is really poor for graphic work. No calibrating soft- or hardware can change that.


 
fortunately, it's much easier to plug a monitor cable into a laptop than custom fab a v8 job into a prius. If not, then most of the world would be screwed and I'd be making a whole hell of a lot more money.

over exaggerated comparisons FTL


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## chrisburke (Oct 28, 2008)

i gotta be honest, I dont understand one word you just said... I think your talking about cars though.. and to compare plugging a external monitor into a macbook to a v8 in a prius is LUDICRIS.... the macbook has a MINIDVI OUT you but a mini DVI to VGA or DVI, OR Svid, whatever you want.. they are 20 bucks.. and you plug it into your macbook, and you plug the external monitor into that... you tun your calb software (which took me 2 minutes) and it looks great.. you dont have to calb if your not doing graphics work, but I do.. and so do most people on this forum.. so we calb


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## austriker (Oct 28, 2008)

i really love my black macbook.. however it has a small screen and not the greatest screen and so i really want to upgrade to a big 24" iMac which are solid machines.

yes, macs are the greatest, once you try it seems you cant go back. 

as far as photos are involved, iPhoto is a great simple program to organize, and they do sell Photoshop for mac as well. also apple does sell a few programs for photoing editing but they are not as advanced as PS. thats my rookie knowledge at least


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

So what you guys actually are saying is- buy a MacBook AND a decent monitor because the internal is insufficient for serious use? Ok fine. I hope the OP takes that into account when buying a new computer.  

Ooopss, look. There's a miniDVI port on my ASUS laptop too! Maybe I should plug a monitor to that? Nah, no need. Even though it costed like a MacBook it has a display resolution of 1680x1050px... (runs for cover) ;-)


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## usayit (Oct 29, 2008)

Don't turn this into a mac versus PC debate.

"MacBook AND a decent monitor" is the same as  "Win Laptop and a decent monitor."

Most portable displays (PCs and MAC) are geared towards low power consumption and rather poor for photo/graphic arts use.  

The fact that you "run for cover" == you troll!


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## usayit (Oct 29, 2008)

As for the latest MacBook, as I said before... I wouldn't recommend it.  That's coming from me a die hard Mac user.  I posted this before and surprised no one cared to ask details.   

Me, I'm looking for last years model MacBook Pro.  Until then, G5 dual workstation and G4 powerbook are still chugging along just nicely.  Honestly, a good spec'd Windows box or Mac will serve 90% equally.


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## chrisburke (Oct 29, 2008)

atropine,  why you gotta be like that man?  theres always someone who tries to egg people on... so annoying...  and for the record,  I have no problem editing photos with my macbook monitor, I just PREFER to use an external... my macbook monitor is calibrated, and pictures look good on it,  i can just see MORE using a bigger monitor..


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## Village Idiot (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> So what you guys actually are saying is- buy a MacBook AND a decent monitor because the internal is insufficient for serious use? Ok fine. I hope the OP takes that into account when buying a new computer.
> 
> Ooopss, look. There's a miniDVI port on my ASUS laptop too! Maybe I should plug a monitor to that? Nah, no need. Even though it costed like a MacBook it has a display resolution of 1680x1050px... (runs for cover) ;-)


 
And my Dell notebook has 1920x1200 screen resolution. But 17" < 24" when it comes to photo editing or recording audio. 

The new 13" macbook has an upgraded integrated graphics chip that was designed by nvidia. It's more than sufficient to run most programs and some games.

And unless he's running PS4 or Aperture, then most programs don't use the gpu, unless he's trying to play games. In that case, any 13" notebook is a dumb choice.

You should really try plugging your laptop into a monitor. It's really helpful and can make working with any programs that require a lot of real estate that much easier. And they don't even *costed* that much.


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## chrisburke (Oct 29, 2008)

here here!! good post VI...  as for the recording studio... you gotta site???  i've recently started a small home based studio, and am always interested in what people are using.


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## tenlientl (Oct 29, 2008)

Not me. I've always used a PC and grown into it.

Maybe one day I'll switch to a Mac, but not right now.

I was actually devating with myself with what to buy next, PC or Mac for photo editing and such. I think I'm sticking with PC. I don't think I'll be hooking it up to the internet anyways o.o


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## bhop (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Well, people keep claiming that, and yet I see a definite majority of PCs in my daily work (as a graphic designer and photographer).



Things must be different in Sweden, because i've yet to see anyone, one single company, or even professional individual, in the graphic design industry here using PCs in my 15 years of experience.


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> And they don't even *costed* that much.


Really neat trick VI! Making fun of somebodys spelling or grammar is truly an excellent way of proving ones point! I am embarrased and admit instantly that my english is simple and inadequate! This will however not stop me from posting my honest and personal opinion. Be it with irony or with a provocative twist.

Strangely, writing anything that can be interpreted as criticism towards Apple or any of their products on a public forum always reslults in some people getting more or less aggressive. Not even the double smileys did do any good. Loosen up for christ sake.


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## chrisburke (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Loosen up for christ sake.



not necessary


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## usayit (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Strangely, writing anything that can be interpreted as criticism towards Apple or any of their products on a public forum always reslults in some people getting more or less aggressive.



Then why "run for cover?"


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

bhop said:


> Things must be different in Sweden, because i've yet to see anyone, one single company, or even professional individual, in the graphic design industry here using PCs in my 15 years of experience.


Maybe so. I can only speak for myself and these are the last five places I've been working at:
Print shop - 2 Mac, 2 PC and a print server with Win 2K.
Webdesign agency - 1 Mac, 4 PC.
Inhouse at software dev company - A lot of computers, all PCs.
Webdesign agency - A lot of computers, all PCs except for one old gen 1 iMac for browser compatibility testing.
Inhouse at industrial company - A lot of computers, all PCs.

At college there were only one Mac available at my faculty, the rest were PCs and Silicon Graphics.

Yes, there are companies that I have been in contact with through my profession that have a majority of Macs, but somehow they often have one or several PCs as well. I would not call something industry standard unless it covers more or less the entire market segment.


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

usayit said:


> Then why "run for cover?"


What the heck, did I use one of those invisible smileys again??? :lmao:


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## notelliot (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Yeah, and you could put a V8 in your Prius... As for the 20" iMac, I am told it uses TN panels which is really poor for graphic work. No calibrating soft- or hardware can change that.


I've had no problems calibrating or working on my iMac display. The only negative thing I have to say about it is that it's glossy. But, for use indoors it's not that much of a problem.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Really neat trick VI! Making fun of somebodys spelling or grammar is truly an excellent way of proving ones point! I am embarrased and admit instantly that my english is simple and inadequate! This will however not stop me from posting my honest and personal opinion. Be it with irony or with a provocative twist.
> 
> Strangely, writing anything that can be interpreted as criticism towards Apple or any of their products on a public forum always reslults in some people getting more or less aggressive. Not even the double smileys did do any good. Loosen up for christ sake.


 
Actually, I think I got my point in before that comment, which was on the tail end of the post.

I own two Dell desktops, a Dell notebook, and an Apple MBP. I'm also running XP, Vista Ultimate, Ubuntu, and OS X. At work I use PCs; Dell & HP. I was also administering a cluster of Dell servers running Server 2003 and two large disk arrays.

The only Apple computer I've used is my MBP. In fact, I spend 80% of my time computing using Windows programs. I just hate when people try and bash a product for no good reason, be it a Windows machine or a Mac. I generally spend a good bit of the time I'm on the Apple forums pissing off fanatics that swear that Windows machines are totally useless.

Even on this forum if you search, you can see post where I've contributed my experience of going through one other MBP to get one that works and having stability issues with PS3 in OS X.

Just because you choose to edit pictures on a tiny 15" screen, doesn't mean other people won't take the 15 seconds to attach and external monitor to a laptop. I mean, if I was stuck editing photos only on a 15" notebook, regardless of the brand, I would go nuts. An external monitor, mouse, and possibly tablet are almost mandatory for me.


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## Village Idiot (Oct 29, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> here here!! good post VI... as for the recording studio... you gotta site??? i've recently started a small home based studio, and am always interested in what people are using.


 
No site. It's in the basement of a bar. My friend's sister bought the bar and we renovated the basement and built a nearly sound proof room. It's big enough for a large drum kit. I'm purely digital though. Logic Studio, a MOTU 828MKII, Mackie mixer for generic preamps, and a bunch of Audio Technica mics.

I've recorded two bands, but most of the traffic we get is Hip Hop artists.


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

notelliot said:


> I've had no problems calibrating or working on my iMac display. The only negative thing I have to say about it is that it's glossy. But, for use indoors it's not that much of a problem.


Is that the 20" iMac? Well you can of course calibrate it, but the viewing angle and contrast will still be the same. For some reason (cost probably) Apple chose to put TN panels in the 20" version of the iMac. 

The worst displays I've ever used were Acer with TN panels. A plain white page looked like a white to pale yellow gradient, things more or less changed colour depending if I was raising or lowering my chair.  I hope your display isn't like that! However the old and cheap TN technology is inferior to IPS and VA regarding viewing angle and contrast and I think it's a pity Apple chose it for the 20" iMac. I even considered buying one before i heard about their panels. I might if they upgrade them in a future version.


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## Atropine (Oct 29, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> Actually, I think I got my point in before that comment, which was on the tail end of the post.


Okay, cheap and immature comments does not count if they are added at the end of a post? Good to know, thanks man! :hail:


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## zeroskillz (Oct 29, 2008)

goodoneian said:


> it's weird how many complaints there are about windows computers getting virus's. i haven't run any kind of anti-virus software in probably three years and i'm yet to have any kind of virus or related problem. and it seems like when i stopped using norton i stopped getting virus's. i could just be lucky though.



Now there's something that make you go 'hmmmm'


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## manaheim (Oct 29, 2008)

Atropine said:


> Okay, cheap and immature comments does not count if they are added at the end of a post? Good to know, thanks man! :hail:


 
Boy, I'm _really _glad that you crawled out of the woodwork to join our little community, here.


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## zeroskillz (Oct 29, 2008)

Oh and can someone tell me which is better, Canon or Nikon?

:lmao::lmao:


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## sparrow (Oct 29, 2008)

I agree with you Atropiine: most places I've worked at as a graphic designer/photographer in my 25 years of experience (and I've worked at some very large companies) are split evenly between Macs and pc's. Most of the problems come from employees surfing questionable sites or using Limewire, as stated above, on booth Mac and pc. On that point, my old home desktop pc has crashed maybe three times in the five years I've owned it. (And always my own fault).

As the saying goes, garbage in/garbage out - as far as I'm concerned both Mac's and pc's work great if the  user treats it right. I prefer pc's, never liked the Mac interface, but I think that's decided by the personality of the user rather than any limitations of particular brands.

And by the way, the day I write in Swedish as well as you write in English is the day I will kid you about it ^-^

Cheers OP: buy what you are most comfortable using.


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## chrisburke (Oct 29, 2008)

sparrow said:


> using Limewire, as stated above, on booth Mac and pc.



Limewire doesnt affect Macs


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## a_spaceman (Oct 29, 2008)

i'm a mac user and would never get a windows operated computer ever again.
mac is a proper personal computer as it works for you and you don't have to work for it all the times like it happens with windows computers.
os x is so much easier and neater to use, too, not to mention the neater graphic interface.


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## Reel1 (Oct 29, 2008)

I have two Macs and have been using them for just over 2 years. They work great.


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## manaheim (Oct 29, 2008)

God I hate threads like this.


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## tsaraleksi (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't feel too good about continuing this discussion, but I've never encountered a media office or studio that was using PCs. In some cases the standard machine for the company is a PC but the media wing has macs. I am not arguing one way or the other about what is better, but at least here in the US it seems that macs rule the roost in media/design.


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## manaheim (Oct 29, 2008)

The problem with these threads is that they are filled with anecdotal evidence, and frequently from a variety of people that don't have any real industry experience in IT infrastructure.

Generally the precious few who _do_ have that experience are largely ignored, or at best given as much credit as the dude who pops up and says "I HAVE A MAC!  MACS RULE!"

Useful.

What's worse is I've been watching this happen for nearly... god... 25 years now?  I remember ENDLESS threads about how MACS RULE!  AMIGAS SUCK! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!


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## Village Idiot (Oct 29, 2008)

a_spaceman said:


> i'm a mac user and would never get a windows operated computer ever again.
> mac is a proper personal computer as it works for you and you don't have to work for it all the times like it happens with windows computers.
> os x is so much easier and neater to use, too, not to mention the neater graphic interface.



BS. I've not had virus software on my Dell notebook and I haven't had a virus on the past two years. No work there.

"It just works" is the best marketing ever done. People love to quote this in any discussion that includes Macs and Windows computers. What's funny is that the people quoting this are most likely the people that buy a Mac to browse the internet and check their e-mail.

Try getting OS X to connect to Ubuntu. That was a huge pain in the ass. And when Leopard was released there were no drivers (*gasp* You need drivers for OS X?!?!?!) for devices like M audio, MOTU, and Pro Tools hardware. Three of the biggest names in the digital recording industry. In fact, it took several months for some interfaces to get proper drivers.

And programs crash in OS X. If it just worked, then it wouldn't be a problem. If it just worked, then there wouldn't be forums dedicated to Apple computer and OS X support.

Anything is prone to problems and nothing is perfect. Just because your computer browses the internet just fine doesn't mean that it's going to do everything else that everyone else does perfectly. Windows computers have problems, Apple computers have problems. Neither "Just work".


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## Atropine (Oct 30, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> Anything is prone to problems and nothing is perfect. Just because your computer browses the internet just fine doesn't mean that it's going to do everything else that everyone else does perfectly. Windows computers have problems, Apple computers have problems. Neither "Just work".


Very true! Trust me, there is no irony or sarchasm in this post.


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## dman (Nov 10, 2008)

Sooooo ... not a Mac vs PC question.  In the market for a Mac and doing my homework right now, I basically know nothing about them.  Signed up for a bunch of their workshops and reading up online.  Really new at photography and not super computer savvy.  I know I should be looking to get as much RAM and processing power as possible.  Having a hard time deciding between the Macbook or Macbook Pro (of course the price of the pro gives me hearburn everytime I see it).  Sooo, shower me with advice and personal opinions


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## glocktekz (Nov 10, 2008)

I just bought a macbook alum and wish i bought one decades ago, everything about a mac runs smoother, turning off and on, install and removing programs and etc. many video editing companies strictly use mac because of the programs and capabilities of it like final cut


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## TWoods450 (Nov 10, 2008)

I have a MacBook Pro, had a MacBook til the other day when I traded it for a camera, MacMini powering a projector for movies, an HP Laptop, Dell Desktop P4 PC.  Oh I do IT for a living so I tend to have more computers than I need.


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## TWoods450 (Nov 10, 2008)

dman said:


> Sooooo ... not a Mac vs PC question.  In the market for a Mac and doing my homework right now, I basically know nothing about them.  Signed up for a bunch of their workshops and reading up online.  Really new at photography and not super computer savvy.  I know I should be looking to get as much RAM and processing power as possible.  Having a hard time deciding between the Macbook or Macbook Pro (of course the price of the pro gives me hearburn everytime I see it).  Sooo, shower me with advice and personal opinions



the new MacBook Aluminums are great in performance as they have better video cards than the standard white macbook. If you don't want ot spend the money on a macbook pro the new MacBooks are a great computer.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 11, 2008)

Hawaii Five-O said:


> The only thing I want to know, is how is Mac not a personal computer? I htink its funny when people are like " i'll never use a personal computer again, I'll only use Macs".:er: haha But I assume people are talking about the OS when they make that statement, and not about the hardware


 
The same reason why all tissues are called Kleenex.


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## stsinner (Nov 11, 2008)

I've used computers for over 20 years, beginning with the TI-99/4A, and have used every OS along the way.  I currently have a Dell desktop and a Dell Inspiron laptop, and I've never had a virus.  I even use the FREE Avast anti-virus and Free Comodo firewall, and I've never had anything bad happen to my computer, so I'd have to suggest that viruses are somehow user error, i.e. opening an infected attachment, etc.. 

I had a Macbook just last year, and while it seemed well-built, I thought the single button mouse was goofy, the way you pressed the entire mouse down for the button action, likewise, and it was just so quirky and goofy to operate.  I suppose if you've got nothing but time and have the patience to do things completely in an unintuitive manner then it is possible to switch from PC to MAC, but I just didn't see the need to be SO different.  It's as if Apple people just wanted to see how weird they could be and just how unlike a PC they could be in their operation, from the unfriendly way you have to install apps you download, instead of just double-clicking on them as you do with a PC, etc. is frustrating.  I tried over and over to simply install the free Quicktime app, but after downloading the file, not only did it not auto execute as it does with the PC, I couldn't even find the file!  WHY??  Why not just put it on the desktop and require a simple double-click for activation and installation?
 The screen was bright and clear, and, as I've said, the thing was well-built, but not worth the headache of every action being just so different and odd.  It would surely be possible to build another platform computer such as the Mac and keep the same actions in tact, such as simple double-click activation of apps, etc, or maintaining a similar file structure and manipulation actions.  
I love my Dell Inspiron, but I'm sure the Macbook is made better.  I could buy a Ferrari or a Cadillac.  Both will get me to work just fine, and the Cadillac is good enough for me..


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## AduNeButt (Nov 11, 2008)

Macs are nice, but in all honesty, they are clearly inferior.  The lack of hardware and software support for the Mac OS just leaves you with at best stripped down versions of Windows software.  I have 2 PCs and a Macbook and there is absolutely nothing that my Macbook can do that my other PCs can't do a vast majority better.  

Macs are "dummie" friendly, as in, you don't have to worry as much about viruses and other negative effects that you would need to pay to fix not having a basic knowledge of troubleshooting.  Though with that, comes the inferiority of Macs, they simply can't do everything a PC can.  You'll find yourself searching for software replacements on a Mac that comes standard on a PC.  In my honest opinion, using both over 4 years, there is no reason to own a Mac -- unless you like paying for looks.


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## christm (Nov 11, 2008)

I switched from a PC in Summer 05, Im not going back !

I love the mac.


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## usayit (Nov 11, 2008)

AduNeButt said:


> Macs are nice, but in all honesty, they are clearly inferior.  The lack of hardware and software support for the Mac OS just leaves you with at best stripped down versions of Windows software.  I have 2 PCs and a Macbook and there is absolutely nothing that my Macbook can do that my other PCs can't do a vast majority better.
> 
> Macs are "dummie" friendly, as in, you don't have to worry as much about viruses and other negative effects that you would need to pay to fix not having a basic knowledge of troubleshooting.  Though with that, comes the inferiority of Macs, they simply can't do everything a PC can.  You'll find yourself searching for software replacements on a Mac that comes standard on a PC.  In my honest opinion, using both over 4 years, there is no reason to own a Mac -- unless you like paying for looks.



There's so much in that post that is just plain incorrect... a lot of common mis-statements by typical window's groups that don't understand the differences.

Hardware support for example.  By your argument, UNIX systems are clearly inferior because of the lack of hardware support.. obviously not but not targeted towards the home user either.  Keeping a tight control over the hardware support usually translates to a more stable system.  This is the reason why enterprise systems including IBM and HP general don't support non-their-branded parts and hardware.  Apple/Mac follows this example as well.  A large portion of the mess within windows boxes is not Microsoft but the third party code that ties into it.  It is a double edged sword.  By allowing third party software/drivers, Microsoft has to deal with a support nightmare and finger pointing between Microsoft and other vendors.  But on the same coin, Microsoft is able to attract a larger array of equipment and hardware.  

Another reason was the aggressive marketing of Microsoft 2 decades ago.  There was a time that you would stroll into a software store and see versions for a variety of O/Ss.  Microsoft did a very good job of squeezing out the competition by sheer marketshare and leveraging (the whole DirectX versus OpenGL comes to mind).

In the end....

Windows systems can do everything a Mac can and Macs can do everything a Windows machine can.   If you say otherwise, it is an opinion from the viewpoint of your needs in a computer and does not hold true in general.    For example... from a UNIX administrator's standpoint, a MAC can more easily integrate... after all it is a BSD based system with a REAL shell (ksh, bourne shell etc.).  But to say that alone makes MAC superior to Windows is also an incorrect statement.   The same holds true from a Gamer who can name a wider selection of game titles for Windows... but to say that alone is a reason that makes Windows superior is also an incorrect statement.

People who still think of Apple from the 80s (IIe) and their popularity in education makes it a system for "dummies" are totally off-base and have very little understanding of MAC OS X.  That is plainly obvious.  

(note: Please MS... kill DOS cmd.exe and provide something better will yah!)

Me.. I am a Mac user (Windows and UNIX on a daily bases).  It brings to it all of the advantages found in many UNIX systems (stability and flexibility) while incorporating a very nice user interface.  For games, I still have a windows box... but that's about all it is used for.


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## sabbath999 (Nov 11, 2008)

I use a iMac 24 at home and at work.

Works great for me... easy to calibrate and dead once calibrated.


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## TBAM (Nov 11, 2008)

I have been with PCs going on 15 years now, was a diehard PC fanboy.

Built my own machines, learnt the ins and outs of all Windows OS's from Windows 3.1 to Vista 64 premium, even had a dabble at OS2.

PCs are great, if you like the options and customizability, however at some point it just hits breaking point.

I rarely ran anti-virus programs and probably only had one virus outbreak in the 15 years. 

I only had one spyware problem which almost crippled my system if it weren't for the spyware forums. However this was due to the inherant problem of IE and not downloads, at such point I switched to firefox.

My gripes with PCs have always been when something goes wrong. When for some reason despite years or maintenance and good running, Windows just won't boot. It comes up with a blue screen with a wall of text, you reboot and it does it again. Try to load in safe-mode and it freezes.

I've had to re-install windows THAT many times, that it's crazy. 

Then there's system restore that came with Windows XP. Can anyone say headache?

It just got too much when I would spend complete days trying to solve a problem, error checking from point to point and in the end having to re-install the OS.

The other problem would be networking and hardware recognition. For some reason, Windows just wouldn't let me network, despite coax cables, automatically assigned and custom IP addreses, DNS Servers, manually going into command prompt (MS-DOS) and trying to ping the IP that I had allocated with no success.

Installing a network card and Windows flatly not recognising it.

It all got too much when I upgraded my old machine, with a Cure 2 Duo processor, new Mobo, graphics card, ram hard drives DVD multiburners, all top of the line stuff.

Windows Vista 64 premium KEPT freezing on me every time I booted to install. It would take literally 30 minutes to get to the first screen, an hour or two to get to the next and eventually konk out due to an error reading the disc.

Windows XP installed fine

Windows Vista 64 premium would work if i put the DVD in my 6 year old 4x DVD burner. However as soon as I tried to read anything on my new DVD drives it just wouldn't. 

They were SATA, so adjusted their port positions to try and re-configure the slave / master setups.

Nothing.

I spent 2 days waiting for the windows vista install, trying different tricks with no success.

I even went and bought another DVD drive as the store i purchased the original from was closed, and thought it was a problem with the DVD drives.

Nope, same problem.

DVD drives not working.

At first I thought it was Vista 64 being the problem as many forums posted problems with hardware recognition. But I couldn't return the OS because it was an OEM version and I had already installed it on the system once, meaning it was not transferrable.

I tried downloading and loading all the updated firmware, software updates everything. Even updated and flashed the BIOS. 

No resolution.

The computer also had trouble reading one of my hard disks which had all of my old files on it which was absolutely necessary to keep.

I was starting to pull my hair out at this stage. It should have worked, it was a brand new system, brand new gear, put together correctly.

I went to store for advice, but they didn't know what the problem was.

After about a week of trying I went into BIOS AGAIN, and for some reason thought of adjusting the SATA controller protocol. 

Voila, the DVD drives worked. The hard disk still didn't work.

I managed to find a pretty detailed way of converting the hard drives file system to one that was recognisable by Vista 64 (it used to be a NTFS file system, but Vista couldn't interact with it).

Then after all this, I installed a new wirless card in and windows didn't recognise it.

I'd spent over $1000 and the machine still didn't work properly.

My wife had been trying to get me to Mac for years. I had been defiant because of my PC history, but had to admit it was ridiculous what I had to go through just to get the system to work.

I went to a store and tried a mac. I liked the layout, I'm a musician, graphic designer and photographer so really liked the moviemaker, garage band and other features that would help inspire my creativity.

Overall, the approach seemed really fresh and energising.

I ended up purchasing an Imac 24" top of the range, with Adobe CS3 creative premium package, and took it home.

It booted easily, without problems, I created my profile and everything seemed so easy and free.

I ended up making a dual-boot with Boot Camp as I still had some games, and Windows only programs that I wanted to keep, and this was easy too.

Windows installed and ran perfectly and even aut-detected all of the apple hardware. All of the apple hardware controlls (on the keyboard worked in windows). Everything was just too good.

I noticed that Apple isolates the Windows Partition, meaning that you can get to the windows partition from OS X, but you can't get to the OS X partition from Windows. Meaning any problems me or my wife come into on Windows won't be distributed to the Mac.

I find myself rarely going into Windows anymore, and still love the mac to pieces.

The word I use for the mac is "inspiring".

I don't know whether I'd purchase a "PC" (technically a MAC is a PC, but you know what I mean) again. Even if i did, i'd purchase a MAC operating system for it.

I know that MAC is kind of creating technology and programs that only work with Apple products, but this is easily surpassed in the Windows boot with programs like Tunebite (converting Apple M4p files to Avi or other formats).

Anyways, I understand that both systems can work to the same potential, but I just had enough of spending too much time to get the Windows PC to work to the same extent as the Apple did naturally.

Almost anyone else I have spoken to who has used a MAC after being a PC user for so long, swears by them. They just got fed up with the constant need for maintenance and fine tuning, which in these day and ages most people don't have time for.

Anyways, long post, but I would consider myself quite objective and would gladly recommend a MAC to anyone I meet.


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## a_spaceman (Nov 11, 2008)

bhop said:


> Things must be different in Sweden, because i've yet to see anyone, one single company, or even professional individual, in the graphic design industry here using PCs in my 15 years of experience.


no they're not.
i don't know where he works and where he studyied, but the vast majority of universities, students/pros etc use mac here.
that said, i'm a mac user myself and not looking back to my windows days. works so much smoother and with so little problems. not to mention how the OS is much neater, customizable and user friendly.
not that windows is evil. but mac is just way better in my opinion.
that said, i don't use my powerbook much for photo editing/graphic but rather for music, especially composing with reason.
for recording, we have a imac with protools. the mac+protools combo seems to be anywere if you go in a pro studio, too, i've seen very few exceptions.


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## asc (Nov 11, 2008)

Great post tBAM.
Very objective...echoes's my experiences as well.


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## danjchau (Nov 11, 2008)

-------------


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## TBAM (Nov 11, 2008)

Dell doesn't actually make anything. Like many laptop and computer manufacturers (like Apple in a way), they produce packages of other products.

A Dell computer is just a tower with various peripherals attached to a Pentium or AMD motherboard and chip.

As for Apple building computers with everything already installed.

I used to think about that, but realistically, technology is accelerating at such a speed that you'll need a new motherboard anyways due to differences in chip sockets. 

And what's the point when you put the new parts in, and for some reason Vista or Windows fails to integrate them properly.

As I said Windows PCs are good and work just as well as an Apple, but I can't be buggered with the effort anymore.

By the time my Apple is out of date, my lease period will almost be over and I can just get the latest greatest one for no extra cost other than a monthly payment.

Computers are better leased than owned these days, in my opinion.

But then again, if you want to a $500 home job upgrade, then you're never really going to be thinking about an apple. It's pretty obvious (to me) that Apple doesn't want to pursue that market.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

I hate to tell you, but I believe the only thing actually "made" by apple is the cases. They're most likely done by a third party manufacture for Apple though. Hitachi DVD drives, samsung screens(?). Some of the same parts that are in Dells, HP, etc...

The only true product made by apple is the OS and software, and even some of their software is developed by third party companies, iirc.

Here's the harley davidson comparison again. This popped up on an Apple forum.

Harley vs. Japanses motorcycle manufactures.
Apple vs. Windows machine manufactures.

Harley's marketing depends a lot on feeling and image and look and culture. Japanese motorcycle manufactures (Yamaha from now own for less typing sake) market less on feel and image in comparison and push numbers and starts.

Example? Buell, the ultimate backroad machine vs. the 180hp Yamaha R1. That's how you'll often see the products described by the manudactures. 

And the perception that Harley is 100% American made? Not true. And one of their cruisers even has an engine designed by porsche.

Is that a bad thing? No. They demand a premium and their motorcycles are usually marked up from MSRP where as Yamaha motorcycles and easily be had for under MSRP. Harley has a huge following that owns harley, buys harley, and lives harley. Yamaha riders are as apt to jump ship and ride Suzuki when they drop the next big thing.

It's marketing. It works. Do both motorcycles/computer do almost the same thing? Yes, just in different ways. Buy what you want and/or need. 

My problem is I hate propaganda and myths.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> I hate to tell you, but I believe the only thing actually "made" by apple is the cases. They're most likely done by a third party manufacture for Apple though. Hitachi DVD drives, samsung screens(?). Some of the same parts that are in Dells, HP, etc...



Of course, it wouldn't be feasible for a company (like Apple) to manufacture each and every component. They still maintain a tight control over which of those devices are actually supported.  HP and IBM drives are a mix of western digital and seagate but sold through the HP or IBM branding.  The idea is that they only support the items that have been tested to properly integrate with the target O/S.  This effort upholds the final quality of the entire system.  Those items are still considered non-third party.  

Windows has a wonderful mix of supported hardware... that is their advantage.  The disadvantage is that they don't have direct control over the quality and interoperability of those items.  They depend on the third party to properly go through QA.  Microsoft also takes a beating whenever a ill system is actually failing due to some third party driver (or software).  In the end, customers don't care who is at fault.  They still see Microsoft Windows branding on boot up and everything is their fault even though it is not.    

In short.... a partnership between a company and a component manufacturer does not automatically mean the product is third-party with third-party support with third party quality.

To bring your motorcycle example into it.... the engine (designed by porsche) is still considered a Harley engine and not a third party engine.  No different than the Sony/Hitachi DVD-R drive in a Mac.  It is still an Apple DVD-R drive not a Sony/Hitachi third party.  If the drive fails, you call Apple NOT Sony/Hitachi.  If the Harley engine fails, you all Harley Davidson NOT Porsche.

Letsay a graphics card is not interacting properly in a built Windows system.  Who do  you call?  Microsoft?  Graphic's card maker?  Motherboard maker? Dell? etc...  How many people opened a support ticket and ended up with two parties pointing fingers at each other neither taking ownership of the issue?


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## SlimPaul (Nov 12, 2008)

Just to answer your question, I've been using MacBook for 2 years now and waiting for the new MacBook Pro to be delivered. 
Macs are better than PC's in almost every aspect. If you're interested in photography, they're the way to go.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

It's still a 3rd party drive. Look in the hardware menu under preferences, It says Hitachi, or intell, or whatever. Of course you don't have to call the 3rd party to get it fixed, same as with any other prebuilt computer, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't an Apple DVD drive or and Apple LCD. Just like a motorcycle's breaks are brembo or Nissin. If something happens, it's covered under warranty but it doesn't change the fact that Yamaha didn't desing and produce those components, just like Apple didn't design and produce the DVD drive, the memory, the processor, the screen, etc...


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

By your logic.. then there is no such thing as 1st party hardware.

Even the processors in Solaris servers are made by Fujitsu.....  So I guess 100% of all Sun servers running their original processors are third party?



"Third-party software component, reusable software component developed to be either freely distributed or sold by an entity other than the original vendor of the development platform"  from Wikipedia\.   The same can be applied to hardware.

The hitachi drive that came in the macs was sold by the original vendor not another entity (regardless who is the manufacturer).  The differences between Apple and Microsoft is how much control they maintain over the hardware supported by the "original" vendor.   It is a double edged sword with adv and disadv on both sides.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

Also... by your logic.. MAC OS X is also third party to Apple.  The core was developed from BSD not Apple.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

usayit said:


> By your logic.. then there is no such thing as 1st party hardware.
> 
> Even the processors in Solaris servers are made by Fujitsu..... So I guess 100% of all Sun servers running their original processors are third party?
> 
> ...


 
Apple processors are Intel chips. They're not Apple C2D chips. It's an Apple computer. Apple did the R&D and picked the hardware they wanted in the machine. They did not make the hardware and it's not even rebranded. By my "logic", things are branded/rebranded/packaged/designed/etc... by a company. And except in the case of rebranding, and even then, those are not components that are made by a manufacture.

I mean, if you want to replace your hard drive in your apple computer, where are you going to find a 300gb Apple HDD? There is first party hardware, it's just not common in the world of computers. Apple's new frame for the MBP is an Apple product. It was designed by them and manufactured by whoever they paid to manufacture it. Apple didn't do the R&D for their hard drives, processors, memory, screens, blue tooth modules, etc... They did do the R&D on the might mouse whatever. They did the R&D on OS X, the Iphone, Ipod etc... 

Just because a company produces something doesn't mean that every componeny in it is also a design of the company that produced the full working product.

Canon has 1st party CMOS chips. They did the R&D on them. But Nikon uses Sony chips, there for, they're not Nikon sensors.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

usayit said:


> Also... by your logic.. MAC OS X is also third party to Apple. The core was developed from BSD not Apple.


 
But Apple did the R&D and completed to whole design and package of OS X. It's an operating system that's based on a *nix design. It is Apple's version.

Who was the first company to develop a CMOS sensor? Was it Canon? Now several different brands use sensors based off that technology. Those sensors weren't design by Canon and they weren't produces by Canon.

That's how technology works if you haven't noticed. People license and borrow designs and incorporate their own technology into a design to make their own. That's completely different than buying a component that another company research, desgined, and manufactured and having some one say that it's an Apple hard drive and not a Seagate hard drive.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

You are confusing two different things.  The agreement with the brand and their manufacturer with the agreement  between the original vendor and user.

Items purchased through Apple is considered 1st party to the user... no matter who manufactured.  As an end user, my agreement is with Apple (original vendor) not the manufacturer.

You are talking about agreements between the original brand and the manufacturer.  In this thread, the discussion is between the user (all of us) and the vendors (microsoft and Apple - 1st party) not the manufacturers that service the 1st party vendors.

I am done.. you can go on believing whatever you want...  

I have two jobs that in part deal with manufacturer of components (hardware job, your def of thirdparty) as well as outsourced software groups (software job, your def of thirdparty).  I have thousands upon thousand of clients that see me as the 1st party provider... they could care less about the manufacturer nor the outsourced software groups that assisted in the final product.  Anything purchased outside of my representative company is considered third party.  I am well in my legal right (as part of agreement between 1st party and end user) to deny any support/service based on any third party component purchased.

If they in turn bought the EXACT same component from me, then it is 1st party and I am bound to support it.  It doesn't matter that the manufacturer of 1st party component and 3rd party component are the same.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

Your clients are idiots.

There is no confusion there.

Because an item is included in a packaged device is sold by a company does not make that item the company's design. A Western Digital will never be 1st party Apple hardware. It will be a 3rd party device that's included in Apple's design.

I never said it's not Apple's obligation to warranty 3rd party devices included in the design of their computers, only that the devices included are not truly Apple hardware.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

Sure... my clients are idiots.. you know more.

They just include a huge chunk of the Fortune 500... but yeh.. they are idiots.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

oh yeh.. forgot to include the obligated smilie...




"Third-party software component, reusable software component developed to be either freely distributed or sold by an entity other than the original vendor of the development platform" from Wikipedia\. The same can be applied to hardware.

"distributed or sold"  no mention of manufacturer.


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## christm (Nov 12, 2008)

a_spaceman said:


> i'm a mac user and would never get a windows operated computer ever again.
> mac is a proper personal computer as it works for you and you don't have to work for it all the times like it happens with windows computers.
> os x is so much easier and neater to use, too, not to mention the neater graphic interface.




Totally agree


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## manaheim (Nov 12, 2008)

*AMIGA RULZ!!!!!*


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## manaheim (Nov 12, 2008)

There is only one answer to this question, and lucky for you people, I just happen to have it!!!
_There are a lot of people in the world who use Macs with great success. There are a lof ot people in the world who use "PCs" with great success. Either works well with various pros and cons that may mean something to any *individual*. Get whatever one you like best or appeals to your general aesthetic and go with it._​A lot of people on this forum (and across the world, and across the expanse of time) have and will respond with great passion to threads like this... making statements such as...

"Macintoshes are stupid expensive! Get a PC, they're cheaper!"
"PCs get viruses! Macintoshes don't! Get a Mac, they're more reliable!"
"I have a Macintosh! They are great!"
"I use a PC and it works great for me, so anyone who buys a Macintosh is just being a snob."
"Macintoshes are the accepted norm for graphics!"
"No they're not!"
"Oh yeah!?!?! YOU SMELL LIKE CHEESE!"​All of these statements have the same relative value. Zero. Naught. Nada. They're pointless and totally unhelpful. I reiterate...
_There are a lot of people in the world who use Macs with great success. There are a lof ot people in the world who use "PCs" with great success. Either works well with various pros and cons that may mean something to any *individual*. Get whatever one you like best or appeals to your general aesthetic and go with it._​Understand what the _real_ pros and cons are for you, given your set of circumstances...
Does platform X have the software you want and need?
Is platform X affordable for you?
Can you get support for platform X if you need it?
What will be the support costs of platform X?
Does platform X appeal to you?
etc.
Then go buy platform X, be happy about it, and shaddap about it.

So, one last time...

_*There are a lot of people in the world who use Macs with great success. There are a lof ot people in the world who use "PCs" with great success. Either works well with various pros and cons that may mean something to any individual. Get whatever one you like best or appeals to your general aesthetic and go with it.*_​


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

usayit said:


> oh yeh.. forgot to include the obligated smilie...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And this proves what? A Hitachi DVD drive is sold by Apple, an entity other than the original vendor of the development platform, who sells a third party device included in their Mac computers. Apple didn't develop Hitachi DVD drives.

And if you consider a DVD drive Apple's property and apple's hardware, then what about the Intel chips? Apple advertises Macs with Intel Core 2 Duo chips, not Macs with Apple Core 2 Duo chips.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

manaheim said:


> *AMIGA RULZ!!!!!*



Oh man... that brings back memories...   Very much ahead of its time.


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

VI....

dude.. drop it...  you don't know the difference between a vendor and manufacturer.


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## stsinner (Nov 12, 2008)

TBAM said:


> Computers are better leased than owned these days, in my opinion.




I've never heard of a private person in America leasing a computer-only corporations do that to my knowledge.  Some people hear lease cars because they want to pay three years and have nothing to show for it, but I think that's about it.  Of course, maybe I'm wrong as usual.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 12, 2008)

usayit said:


> oh yeh.. forgot to include the obligated smilie...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


usayit said:


> VI....
> 
> dude.. drop it... you don't know the difference between a vendor and manufacturer.


 
Even then, the wikipedia quote doesn't hold water. "Entity other than the original vendor of the development platform". Apple didn't develop those components. They are not Apple components. They're not even rebranded as Apple components. Apple developed the computer, but not the componenets.

If that's the case, I could make a premade recording system and brand it VI technologies recording systems. It would include a VI tech computer, a/d convertor, and monitor which wouldn't be dell, MOTU, and HP respectively anymore, it would all be my brand and my components even though they were still labeled as such from their original manufacture/distributor/vendor.


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## danjchau (Nov 12, 2008)

-------------


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## usayit (Nov 12, 2008)

Vi Drop it...   

Vendor  is  
"a person or agency that sells" (dictionary.com)
" one that vends : seller" (/www.merriam-webster.com)

I repeat:
"Third-party software component, reusable software component developed to be either freely distributed or sold by an entity other than the original vendor of the development platform" from Wikipedia\. The same can be applied to hardware.


So are you going to keep arguing that a vendor also designs and manufactures?  Perhaps you should call up dictionary and webster to set them straight.


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## manaheim (Nov 12, 2008)

usayit said:


> Oh man... that brings back memories... Very much ahead of its time.


 
Really amazing machine.  I could never sell any of them though... they just didn't have enough software.  Very poorly supported over their lifetime, which was truly sad.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 13, 2008)

usayit said:


> Vi Drop it...
> 
> Vendor is
> "a person or agency that sells" (dictionary.com)
> ...


 
You need a more reliable source than wikipedia. So in other words, Intel doesn't sell their chips to Apple or Dell or anyone else, they just give them away? If they were "one that vends: seller", that would mean that they sold their product for money. Your definitions are too ambiguous. 

Still, the fact remains. Intel chips never become Apple chips, they're always Intel C2D chips.

Edit: And yes, certain vendors do design and manufacture. Honl. California Sun Bounce, Alien Bees. There's a couple examples everyone in this forum should know.


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## usayit (Nov 13, 2008)

Any more reliable than webster?  

My definitions are typical in the industry from which I work.  give it up man.... At this point, you just arguing for the sake of arguing.  

Intel (manufacturer of chips) -> Apple (manufacturer of in house products) -> Apple (vendor of the finished product) -> bestbuy (retailer) -> customer.

From customer's point of view, Apple is the vendor.  If the customer buys another video card from another vendor (ATI for example), that card is considered third party.  Apple is not obligated to support it.  If the customer buys an ATI video card FROM APPLE, that card is considered non-third-party and direct from vendor.  Apple is obligated to support it.  This is their way of doing business which is a double edged sword.

You are so hell bent on winning an argument over semantics that you are missing the single most important thing in my posts.  That Apple is very selective of support for  products not purchased through Apple (vendor) while Microsoft chooses to allow support for a wide variety of products not purchased through (Microsoft).  

Give it up.  By your definition 100% of all products made is third party since almost no one creates 100% of the product in-house... which is just plain backwards logic.  And no... my clients in the Fortune 500 are not idiots.  The dictionary is right and wikipedia (even though not infallible) is accurate.  Change dictionary, wikipedia, and prove that my clients are idiots and then you are "right".


In your example intel, the customer's vendor is Apple even though Intel manufactures processors for Apple.  Those chips are considered "direct from vendor" since they were purchased through Apple.  If you purchased an Intel chip through another vendor outside of Apple, then the chips are considered third-party.  You are still confusing vendor and manufacturer... because the idea of thirdparty versus "direct from vendor" has nothing to do with who ultimately manufactured the product.


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