# Senior and Family Pictures



## canonbraden (Apr 29, 2013)

Alright so I've decided that I'm gonna start doing senior and family pictures. I'm new to this, and in NO means a professional. I don't know what to charge or how many pictures to give the client. Sessions will be half an hour, 45 minutes, or 1 hour. Like I said, I'm no professional so I would like to have lower prices. I know there will be a sitting and basic editing fee.


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## tirediron (Apr 29, 2013)

Okay, point #1:  Charging for services = professional.  Period.  There's a LOT more to "doing" pictures than just setting up a facebook page and offering $150 CDs with 25 images on them.  

First of all, do you have the right equipment and skill to take this on?  It's one thing to do shots for family and friends, but the whole dynamic is altered a LOT when money changes hands.  

Before you hang up your sign, make sure your legal ducks are in a row.  Business license, insurance, tax #, contracts (reviewed by a lawyer) etc.  

Once you've done that, draft a business plan; include all of your costs such as those mentioned above, equipment, travel, etc.  Once you've figured out that, determined a target market and come up with an advertising plan, THEN you will know exactly how much to charge.  

As for how many pictures, that's up to you.  I offer up to six with my basic ($175) package and go up form there.


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## Trever1t (Apr 29, 2013)

Live your dream man but realize it's a fantasy. If you are admittedly are not skilled enough to say you are Professional then why do you think you should be charging people money?


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## orljustin (Apr 30, 2013)

Trollllllll...


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## Rafterman (Apr 30, 2013)

orljustin said:


> Trollllllll...



Yes, because 80-posts in just 4-months clearly makes her a troll.  :roll:



canonbraden said:


> I'm new to this, and in NO means a  professional.



Then I recommend you don't start charging people for your photos. It would be like me saying "I'm new to construction, and not a professional, but I own a hammer and some other basic tools, so I plan to start charging people for home renovations." See how wrong that sounds?



canonbraden said:


> I don't know what to charge or how many pictures to give  the client.



Then clearly more research is needed before you start charging people. No one here can give you a straight up "charge them _this much_ for _this many_ pictures" answer, because it varies from person-to-person, market-to-market, and job-to-job.



canonbraden said:


> Sessions will be half an hour, 45 minutes, or 1 hour.



Is this actual time shooting, the time you are on-site (set-up, break-down, etc.) or total time including travel?



canonbraden said:


> Like I  said, I'm no professional so I would like to have lower prices. I know  there will be a sitting and basic editing fee.



Lower than what? Again, all that depends on a variety of factors. If you incorporate and get a tax ID as suggested above, you'll be paying a LOT of money in taxes and fees, so if you don't charge enough, your "lower prices" will basically leave you working just to break even. I believe when you do something for zero monetary gain, they call it a "hobby" or "volunteering."

Just think long and hard before you dive in. Take your time and look into all that is involved with starting/running a legitimate small business in this country. I've had a DSLR for almost 3-years and have been taking pictures in one format or another for over 20, but even if I decided TODAY that I wanted to start a photography business, even part-time, I'd still be months away from making that a reality because of all the steps I would need to take first.


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## runnah (Apr 30, 2013)

Trever1t said:


> Live your dream man but realize it's a fantasy. If you are admittedly are not skilled enough to say you are Professional then why do you think you should be charging people money?



This.

Every professional has their doubts and that is normal, but most of the time you should have no doubt that you are going to kickass at what ever you are going to do.


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## orljustin (Apr 30, 2013)

"Yes, because 80-posts in just 4-months clearly makes her a troll."  Troll posts aren't limited to newbs.

"I don't know anything about shoots for money, but I'm going to start taking pictures of people and charging money."

actually, with all the similar posts here, I'd say more satire than troll.


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## KmH (Apr 30, 2013)

I think 'her' is a he. I also get the impression the OP is still in high school? If so, and an un-emancipated minor, his/her parents would be legally liable. 

We all have to start somewhere, but there are some basic elements needed to start any kind of a business.
Photographer skill/equipment is really not a factor. It is the buyer's responsibility to determine if the photographer's product is worth the price.
Mediocre photographers that have excellent business, marketing, and salesmanship skills can prosper while a gifted photographer that produces stunning images but that has zero business acumen can't make a dime.

Tirediron hit the biggies - business plan, legal business (local & state), business liability insurance, well written contract, accounting records, taxes (local, state (sales, unemployment, & use), federal), etc.

Utah State Tax Commission - Tax Info for Businesses
Starting a Business - Business - Utah.gov
https://secure.utah.gov/osbr-user/user/municipalities.html

FWIW - Each hour of shooting time, generally requires 3 hours of pre and post shoot work.
The time factor includes initial client contact and shoot scheduling/paperwork, pre-shoot set up/travel, the shoot itself, post shoot tear down/travel, post shoot image management/editing, more paperwork, delivery of the products the client initially paid for, sales of additional product (upselling), more paper work, etc.

More of a retail photographer's time is spent doing business tasks than doing photography tasks.

In round numbers, to sustain a photography business without additional outside income (like from a spouse, 'day job', parents) and actually make money, an average sale of about $1000 is required.


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## Derrel (Apr 30, 2013)

KmH said:


> >>>SNIP>>>Photographer skill/equipment is really not a factor. It is the buyer's responsibility to determine if the photographers product is worth the price.
> _Mediocre photographers that have excellent business, marketing, and salesmanship skills can prosper while a gifted photographer that produces stunning images but that has zero business acumen can't make a dime._>SNIP



KmH has made these two points many,many times here on TPF. There is plenty of room for mediocre and beginner shooters in today's world. Perhaps canonbradon (the OP) can get some really simple-simple senior shoots and some really basic family BBQ or family reunion shoots off of Craigslist or through his network of friends and family? Maybe shoot a few really simple gigs? I dunno...a friend of mine shot his first-ever paying gig with a borrowed flash and some modest equipment, and it turned out decently...he was perhaps "not ready", but he pulled it off.
I shot my first wedding in 7th grade, with a Cosmorex SE and a 58mm f/2 lens...and NOTHING else...and it was a disaster....oh, wait...I'm muddling the issues here...


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## canonbraden (Apr 30, 2013)

Rafterman said:


> Yes, because 80-posts in just 4-months clearly makes her a troll.  :roll:
> 
> Then I recommend you don't start charging people for your photos. It would be like me saying "I'm new to construction, and not a professional, but I own a hammer and some other basic tools, so I plan to start charging people for home renovations." See how wrong that sounds?
> 
> ...



I'm not starting a business. 16 year olds don't won businesses or pay taxes.. 
Thank you very much for all the input though it helped a lot.


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## canonbraden (Apr 30, 2013)

orljustin said:


> "Yes, because 80-posts in just 4-months clearly makes her a troll."  Troll posts aren't limited to newbs.
> 
> "I don't know anything about shoots for money, but I'm going to start taking pictures of people and charging money."
> 
> actually, with all the similar posts here, I'd say more satire than troll.



How am I trolling? I have a question..


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## canonbraden (Apr 30, 2013)

KmH said:


> I think 'her' is a he. I also get the impression the OP is still in high school? If so, and an un-emancipated minor, his/her parents would be legally liable.
> 
> We all have to start somewhere, but there are some basic elements needed to start any kind of a business.
> Photographer skill/equipment is really not a factor. It is the buyer's responsibility to determine if the photographer's product is worth the price.
> ...



Thank you for being cool about this. Many people have come off with a bad impression. I think you realize what I'm talking about. I'm still in highschool, I'm just doing this to pick up a few extra bucks to pay for my gas and phone and save for college. I'm still going to put hard work in this and I'm not gonna do it ONLY for money, but for more experience.


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## canonbraden (Apr 30, 2013)

Derrel said:


> KmH has made these two points many,many times here on TPF. There is plenty of room for mediocre and beginner shooters in today's world. Perhaps canonbradon (the OP) can get some really simple-simple senior shoots and some really basic family BBQ or family reunion shoots off of Craigslist or through his network of friends and family? Maybe shoot a few really simple gigs? I dunno...a friend of mine shot his first-ever paying gig with a borrowed flash and some modest equipment, and it turned out decently...he was perhaps "not ready", but he pulled it off.
> I shot my first wedding in 7th grade, with a Cosmorex SE and a 58mm f/2 lens...and NOTHING else...and it was a disaster....oh, wait...I'm muddling the issues here...



Exactly. I'm just trying to start off simple to get more experience, then I'll actually start doing it for the money.


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## tirediron (Apr 30, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Alright so I've decided that I'm gonna start doing senior and family pictures. I'm new to this, and in NO means a professional. I don't know what to charge or how many pictures to give the client. Sessions will be half an hour, 45 minutes, or 1 hour. Like I said, I'm no professional so I would like to have lower prices. I know there will be a sitting and basic editing fee.


 


canonbraden said:


> I'm not starting a business. 16 year olds don't won businesses or pay taxes.


Ummm...  charging for services is pretty much the definition of a business.  Granted, as a minor, you can probably get away with more than an adult might, that does not mean that it's right, or even legal.  I would also point out that your local municipality and the IRS may or may not care about your age.  In short, it's better to start off the way you mean to continue.


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## KmH (Apr 30, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> I'm not starting a business. 16 year olds don't won businesses or pay taxes..


Sure they do. Both Utah and the feds expect 16 year olds that earn enough income to pay income and federal social security taxes.

The same goes for state use taxes and a business collecting and forwarding state sales taxes to the state.


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## orljustin (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Rafterman said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not starting a business. 16 year olds don't won businesses or pay taxes..
> ...


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## canonbraden (May 1, 2013)

KmH said:


> Sure they do. Both Utah and the feds expect 16 year olds that earn enough income to pay income and federal social security taxes.
> 
> The same goes for state use taxes and a business collecting and forwarding state sales taxes to the state.



Since when has ANY 16 year old payed taxes? I've NEVER met someone my age who has to pay taxes.


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## canonbraden (May 1, 2013)

Like you said if I earn a certain amount of money I will pay, but I'm not gonna be making that much money. I'm done with this conversation and I'm not gonna argue about something that won't happen to me.


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## pixmedic (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Like you said if I earn a certain amount of money I will pay, but I'm not gonna be making that much money. I'm done with this conversation and I'm not gonna argue about something that won't happen to me.



You should really research your states tax laws before assuring yourself that it wont happen to you.  Different states have different amounts of income that is the cutoff for requiring a tax Id and/or income tax.  

Also... I went to high school with two guys that made enough money mowing lawns and doing yard work that they had to file income taxes.  They were 16 and 17 years old.  The state doesnt care about your age, only how much tax money you owe them. 

I can see where this might be an unlikely scenario for you, but its always better to know where that income line is just in case things go better than you expect them to.


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## orljustin (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Sure they do. Both Utah and the feds expect 16 year olds that earn enough income to pay income and federal social security taxes.
> ...



Paid 'em when I was 16 and worked fast food.  Seems like your attitude will get you far.


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## orljustin (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Like you said if I earn a certain amount of money I will pay, but I'm not gonna be making that much money. I'm done with this conversation and I'm not gonna argue about something that won't happen to me.



Lol, plan for success.


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## KmH (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Sure they do. Both Utah and the feds expect 16 year olds that earn enough income to pay income and federal social security taxes.
> ...


Since they first instituted personal income tax in the USA (1861).

It's about income and whatever deductions you qualify for, not age.
There is no age limit on having to pay taxes.

Does a 16 year old have to pay income tax

If you have earned income of more than $950 a year you're required to file a return, though your parents can still claim you as a dependent.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Do-You-Need-to-File-a-Federal-Income-Tax-Return?--22


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## Rafterman (May 1, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> I've NEVER met someone my age who has to pay taxes.



Then you just don't know anyone your age who has a job. My first job was as a busboy at a restaurant near my home. I started there when I was 16-years old, and believe me, I paid taxes.


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## canonbraden (May 2, 2013)

Rafterman said:


> Then you just don't know anyone your age who has a job. My first job was as a busboy at a restaurant near my home. I started there when I was 16-years old, and believe me, I paid taxes.



Yeah I do actually, and none of them pay taxes. I asked them at school and they all said no.


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## pixmedic (May 2, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Rafterman said:
> 
> 
> > Then you just don't know anyone your age who has a job. My first job was as a busboy at a restaurant near my home. I started there when I was 16-years old, and believe me, I paid taxes.
> ...



just because they ARENT paying taxes, doesnt mean they shouldn't be. that sort of thing isn't just relegated to photographers. 
its the amount of money you make that the IRS cares about. I think the general consensus here is that you should at least know what that number is in your state just in case you end up doing better than expected with the photography. unless your saying that you don't intend to pay taxes regardless of how much money you make. that's pretty common as well. not recommended, but common practice.


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## tirediron (May 2, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Rafterman said:
> 
> 
> > Then you just don't know anyone your age who has a job. My first job was as a busboy at a restaurant near my home. I started there when I was 16-years old, and believe me, I paid taxes.
> ...


Alternatively, they're not aware that they're paying taxes.  I can't speak for the US, but in Canada, it's very common for employers to hold back all government deductions and give the employee a net pay-cheque.


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## KmH (May 2, 2013)

Same here in the US. When hired, and regardless of age, the employee is required by federal law to complete a W-4 form, which tells the employer how much to take out of each pay check.

http://www.adp.com/mypaycheck/04-1903-085-Paystatement.pdf


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## orljustin (May 3, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> Rafterman said:
> 
> 
> > Then you just don't know anyone your age who has a job. My first job was as a busboy at a restaurant near my home. I started there when I was 16-years old, and believe me, I paid taxes.
> ...



If your friends have a real job, they pay taxes.  Sorry.


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## canonbraden (May 3, 2013)

orljustin said:


> If your friends have a real job, they pay taxes.  Sorry.



Okay because working at a restaurant isn't a real job.


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## tirediron (May 3, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > If your friends have a real job, they pay taxes. Sorry.
> ...


Let's assume that either (1) they're paying taxes and aren't aware of it, (2) that their rate of pay is below the threshold for which such tax is required, or (3) They're working "under the table".  Irrespective of which of the three are in fact the case, you are required by US federal law to declare your income and pay appropriate taxes as proscribed by the IRS.  Yes, you can get away without it, at least for a while; you might even get away with it for years, BUT, the longer you conduct your business in that manner, the greater the chance you will be caught.  FWIW, the penalties for being caught will very likely exceed the amount of money you've made in that period.

Believe us when we say you are required to pay taxes.  If you choose not to, that's your business...


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## orljustin (May 3, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > If your friends have a real job, they pay taxes.  Sorry.
> ...



Sorry, I meant "real job" as in a job that follows the law and requires employees to fill out W-4s and such.  Not your pal hauling out the garbage at night for $20 under the table.


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## cgipson1 (May 3, 2013)

canonbraden said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > If your friends have a real job, they pay taxes.  Sorry.
> ...



You know whats really cool? The IRS offers rewards to people who report people who don't pay their taxes!!! Whats your name again? Braden from Utah, right? Hmmmmm!


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## Tee (May 3, 2013)

Well, when you're 16 it's all about chicks and loose change for smokes.  Not too many teens up to speed on tax law.  But yeah, if they're working in a restaurant, they're paying taxes.  Have them look at their pay stub and notice the gross vs. net.  Where do you think that difference is going?


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## canonbraden (May 5, 2013)

Tee said:


> Well, when you're 16 it's all about chicks and loose change for smokes.  Not too many teens up to speed on tax law.  But yeah, if they're working in a restaurant, they're paying taxes.  Have them look at their pay stub and notice the gross vs. net.  Where do you think that difference is going?



Probably to Africa or something


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