# Dslr upgrade or not??



## nitrous642

Hey guys,

I've been trying to figure out what is best for me to do in regards of start charging for my photography for some time now but I can't wrap my head around it that easy as we are talking about big bucks and what I am after here is to spend my budget the most wisely way I possibly can and not waste it on the urge of just buying something expensive as I know this is not how it's done.

In my case, I own a Canon 600D with a 50mm and 10-22mm for the past 5 years now. I've been shooting since then for my pleasure and as a freelancer for the past 2.5 years, never charged for my work as I am trying to build up a portfolio in order to be able to actually charge (that's my way of thinking at least). I shoot people, landscapes, events, christenings sometimes videos and looking on getting into weddings and take things a step further than just a hobby/amateur photography.

For the past 8 months I've been thinking of upgrading my gear to something more "serious" for reasons like, better overall image quality, can invest on it in regards to lenses, clients will actually take me seriously, and maybe more confidence will come along the way just to mention a few but that will cost a lot, like for example the Nikon D750/D800/D810 (it's worth the switch to Nikon as far as I looked into it), Canon 5D MKIII/IV, Sony A7R etc (I know the lenses factor and what I like to shoot is a major factor here but just mentioned some of the options I looked into)

My concern is this,

Should I? Would it be worth it and will it cover the few reasons I've mentioned above?

If I should, should I consider those options or maybe consider some mirrorless options like the Fuji or Sony line that is out now.

Or should I invest on workshops and travelling and expand my knowledge and technique and keep the gear I already have and maybe buy another lens that I want to shoot with?

I really hope my points are clear to you and thanks a lot for taking the time to read this!

Looking forward for your greatly appreciated replies! 

Thanks,

Marios


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## Overread

You seem to be a bit all over the place which suggests money is burning a hole in your pocket. Jumping from holiday trips to training to changing brands etc... You sound all over the place a little.

I would suggest that what you need to do first is decide upon what your goal is - being a better photographer and/or being a paid professional. If you're after the latter you need to treat it as a business choice and do your numbers to see if investment is what you need right now or if you need to invest in your actual business instead.

"free to gain experience then get paid" is a sane approach but can back-fire. If you do all your work for free locally you build up a reputation and then when you go pro and charge suddenly all those free customers vanish and you've got to build up a client base again. 


I think you aslo ned to show your photography and get some critique and do some self critique to best identify where your weaknesses and problems are and start to compare your work and be honest if you're ready or not to charge. Give the critique link in my signature a read as well.


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## nitrous642

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply!

Indeed i am a bit all over the place as i have the budget to invest on this but i want to make the best of it. And yes the ultimate goal is turning pro here and make a living out of it. The thing that mainly is poking my brain here is what my next step should be in other words what investement is more important to do now in order to turn pro in a sense. You dont just turn pro but i believe you see where im going with this

Im already working on my website at the moment and social media so this is going towards my goal.

Any other comment on that?

Thanks!


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## sashbar

What do you mean by turning a pro?  Are you going to shoot weddings? Corporate? Fashion?  What are you planning to do exactly?


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## nitrous642

My plan is to shoot weddings mainly for the income as its the most highest paying where i live, christenings, fashion and do various photoshooting projects.


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## HughGuessWho

nitrous642 said:


> ... in other words what investement is more important to do now in order to turn pro in a sense.
> 
> Im already working on my website at the moment and social media so this is going towards my goal.
> 
> Any other comment on that?
> 
> Thanks!



IMHO, your most important "investment" you can make is in yourself and your skills. The best equipment available will not and cannot may you a "pro".
You should invest in better equipment when your current gear is keeping your skills from advancing. As you improve, you will know when time comes.

Just my $0.02


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## PaulWog

nitrous642 said:


> My plan is to shoot weddings mainly for the income as its the most highest paying where i live, christenings, fashion and do various photoshooting projects.



Here's a quick list of things:

1) Business before photography. You'll hear this from professionals on this forum. I know this first-hand. Various friends, and various family members, have all hired photographers based on factors other than their portfolios (a portfolio still matters of course). For example, an aunt and uncle of mine hired a family photographer based on her popularity, high booking cost, difficulty to book, reputation, and specialization. She specialized in family photography, was really hard to book, cost quite a lot, and she produced TERRIBLE images. She was doing something right, but it wasn't her photos. The same happened for my girlfriend's cousin's wedding... terribly out of focus photos that were composed alright, but overall poorly done stuff... but the business end was solid. My girlfriend's sister's wedding was done well, but it was mostly in photoshop after the fact; everything about it was just alright, but they threw on complicated and fairly well done edits in photoshop... kind of like a great sauce on an okay dish.

2) Two cameras, minimum. If you are solo shooting, you *need* two cameras. Ideally there should be a couple people shooting, but you need a backup.

3) The pros use full frame cameras at weddings. A smaller format can work just fine, but you *will* be compromising quality in one way or another if you don't choose full frame.

4) Some pros use primarily or exclusively prime lenses. I think that takes a lot of balls, and a specific style. I think you should have a 24-70 f2.8 lens for weddings, a 70-200 f2.8 lens, and if you are able to compose properly with it, an ultrawide as well. A macro lens is very important. Everything else is supplementary, but a 35 1.4 or 50 1.4 would be very useful.

I'll give some examples of usage:
- ultrawide for the dance floor
- 70-200 for many different purposes, including shots in the church/wherever
- 24-70 for varying situations
- macro for flower shots, ring shots, etc
- fast prime for certain situations that you want more bokeh, or need more light

5) At least a couple speedlights, plus additional lighting equipment.

For example, a wedding I was at was shot like this:
- 3 people shot the wedding
- 2 people were shooting the getting-ready stuff
- 1 was on video throughout the wedding, 2 were shooting from different angles during the actual ceremony
- 2 people went out to the beach between the ceremony and the party to do golden hour shots... they needed at least their 24-70 and 70-200, and a couple of speedlights with proper umbrellas and such
- 2 people shot from about 7:30pm to midnight, they needed their 70-200 and 24-70 and flashes to get all the action including everyone mingling, then the bride and groom and the bride/groom party coming in to their table which is a big moment, etc...
- 2 people continued to shoot everything going on, they needed the 70-200 to take shots of speeches
- 2 people continued to shoot when dancing went on, they mostly used flashes and ultrawide lenses
- They had a photo booth going on set up automatically, extra charge and all that

6) It's just ****ing expensive to get all the gear you need, and get all the business down... but with proper gear, good skill, and the business end done properly, theoretically you should do well. You need to think about lots of various business costs which I hear can be quite cumbersome, and little costs like extra batteries, bags, memory cards, extra hard drives, etc.


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## The_Traveler

do you have a web site?


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## otherprof

nitrous642 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been trying to figure out what is best for me to do in regards of start charging for my photography for some time now but I can't wrap my head around it that easy as we are talking about big bucks and what I am after here is to spend my budget the most wisely way I possibly can and not waste it on the urge of just buying something expensive as I know this is not how it's done.
> 
> In my case, I own a Canon 600D with a 50mm and 10-22mm for the past 5 years now. I've been shooting since then for my pleasure and as a freelancer for the past 2.5 years, never charged for my work as I am trying to build up a portfolio in order to be able to actually charge (that's my way of thinking at least). I shoot people, landscapes, events, christenings sometimes videos and looking on getting into weddings and take things a step further than just a hobby/amateur photography.
> 
> For the past 8 months I've been thinking of upgrading my gear to something more "serious" for reasons like, better overall image quality, can invest on it in regards to lenses, clients will actually take me seriously, and maybe more confidence will come along the way just to mention a few but that will cost a lot, like for example the Nikon D750/D800/D810 (it's worth the switch to Nikon as far as I looked into it), Canon 5D MKIII/IV, Sony A7R etc (I know the lenses factor and what I like to shoot is a major factor here but just mentioned some of the options I looked into)
> 
> My concern is this,
> 
> Should I? Would it be worth it and will it cover the few reasons I've mentioned above?
> 
> If I should, should I consider those options or maybe consider some mirrorless options like the Fuji or Sony line that is out now.
> 
> Or should I invest on workshops and travelling and expand my knowledge and technique and keep the gear I already have and maybe buy another lens that I want to shoot with?
> 
> I really hope my points are clear to you and thanks a lot for taking the time to read this!
> 
> Looking forward for your greatly appreciated replies!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marios


More on why a switch from Canon to Nikon is an upgrade, please.


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## fmw

The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.


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## PaulWog

fmw said:


> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.



A 600D, 50mm, and 10-22 certainly *is not* sufficient to shoot weddings. For professional work in general, that gear is not sufficient.


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## fmw

PaulWog said:


> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 600D, 50mm, and 10-22 certainly *is not* sufficient to shoot weddings. For professional work in general, that gear is not sufficient.
Click to expand...


I could do it with perfectly satisfactory results.  You couldn't


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## The_Traveler

If this is primarily a way to justify spending more money on your equipment - and only you can know that - you are getting into a situation that is more dire than you can see from the outside.
With being a pro comes a lot of legal and professional liability that is only hedged by spending a lot more on stuff (like insurance, licenses, extra goods) that won't satisfy your desire for more fun equipment.

Become a businessman with a camera if:

the local scene needs more photographers,
the economy can support more. 
you want to exchange what you love for a business
you have the actual photo skills
you have the actual business skills

I live in the third wealthiest county in the US (List of highest-income counties in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and there are photographers crawling out of the woodwork because everyone has the money to buy cameras, the desire to amortize the costs and there is little or no barrier to entry.

Don't think that bulding a business is the key.


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## OGsPhotography

I figure it will be about 20k to get fully into " pro" gear. 
Thats pretty cheap in the run up capital costs of starting a business. 

Lens- 7k
2 bodies- 5k
Lighting- 2k
Misc-2 k
Pooter-2k
( 2k buffer)

Spending 20-50k on edumacation is about average so why not take courses/ travel etc to be a photog?

A studio is easy 5-50k.
Lets go on the low side for my demo.

75k in the popular wisdom of the internet is not a barrier to entry? Good luck keeping up if you dont make a business plan.

A car should probably be in the plan lol. 

80 housand dollars and were just starting and I must have missed some critical points cause Im on my first coffee.


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## PaulWog

fmw said:


> PaulWog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 600D, 50mm, and 10-22 certainly *is not* sufficient to shoot weddings. For professional work in general, that gear is not sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I could do it with perfectly satisfactory results.  You couldn't
Click to expand...


This isn't a matter of "I could because I'm skilled." Shooting a wedding with a 600D, a 50mm, and a 10-22 is asking for trouble.

Furthermore, the "You couldn't" comment is just downright disrespectful.


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## tirediron

fmw said:


> PaulWog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 600D, 50mm, and 10-22 certainly *is not* sufficient to shoot weddings. For professional work in general, that gear is not sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I could do it with perfectly satisfactory results.  You couldn't
Click to expand...

First and foremost, there's no requirement for comments of that nature unless you have the gift of divination, in which case I'd like Wednesday's lottery numbers, and in the second I agree with Paul that is not sufficient gear for a professional undertaking.  While it's true that one could get the job done with it, it would not be the job I would expect of a professional.  Yes, you need to know and understand your gear, but every piece of kit has limitations of some sort, and shooting the average wedding with nothing longer than a 50 and only a single body?  I don't see that ending well.


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## terri

I've moved this thread to a more appropriate one for the OP's stated goal.     

From this forum's guidelines:    
_
To Our Working Pros:
_
* You know better than anyone how hard it can be to get started! Every working professional and experienced photographer had to start at the beginning at some point. Here is your chance to offer tips and advice to those just coming up in the field. 

* This is a place to offer advice and encouragement. Rudeness, snide remarks and 'newbie bashing' will not be tolerated.


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## fmw

PaulWog said:


> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulWog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 600D, 50mm, and 10-22 certainly *is not* sufficient to shoot weddings. For professional work in general, that gear is not sufficient.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I could do it with perfectly satisfactory results.  You couldn't
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This isn't a matter of "I could because I'm skilled." Shooting a wedding with a 600D, a 50mm, and a 10-22 is asking for trouble.
> 
> Furthermore, the "You couldn't" comment is just downright disrespectful.
Click to expand...

I didn't say you couldn't.  I asked.  Someone deleted the question mark in the quote.


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## nitrous642

The_Traveler said:


> If this is primarily a way to justify spending more money on your equipment - and only you can know that - you are getting into a situation that is more dire than you can see from the outside.
> With being a pro comes a lot of legal and professional liability that is only hedged by spending a lot more on stuff (like insurance, licenses, extra goods) that won't satisfy your desire for more fun equipment.
> 
> Become a businessman with a camera if:
> 
> the local scene needs more photographers,
> the economy can support more.
> you want to exchange what you love for a business
> you have the actual photo skills
> you have the actual business skills
> 
> I live in the third wealthiest county in the US (List of highest-income counties in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and there are photographers crawling out of the woodwork because everyone has the money to buy cameras, the desire to amortize the costs and there is little or no barrier to entry.
> 
> Don't think that bulding a business is the key.



Thanks for the reply!

Yes that's just about it as I feel like I am ready to take it to the next step and actually get paid for this as I feel like at the moment I can produce at least the 80% out of the gear I have at least which is a lot and by gear I only mean the body and the lenses including the post production. I don't even own lighting manipulators (diffusers, reflectors) that could really boost up my game since photography is all about the lighting and perspective.

I like in Cyprus, a small island of a million in the Mediterranean so the ratio of the actual photographers in contrast with the population is not that big and the local scene needs more (good ones) photographers, economy might support this it depends as we are under crisis here still, I would love to turn my passion into business and I believe I fulfill those requirements. The thing is that I decided I am going to spend money on this but my concern is where I should spend rather than if I should as I understand that if I want to take this further I have to somehow invest.


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## nitrous642

OGsPhotography said:


> I figure it will be about 20k to get fully into " pro" gear.
> Thats pretty cheap in the run up capital costs of starting a business.
> 
> Lens- 7k
> 2 bodies- 5k
> Lighting- 2k
> Misc-2 k
> Pooter-2k
> ( 2k buffer)
> 
> Spending 20-50k on edumacation is about average so why not take courses/ travel etc to be a photog?
> 
> A studio is easy 5-50k.
> Lets go on the low side for my demo.
> 
> 75k in the popular wisdom of the internet is not a barrier to entry? Good luck keeping up if you dont make a business plan.
> 
> A car should probably be in the plan lol.
> 
> 80 housand dollars and were just starting and I must have missed some critical points cause Im on my first coffee.



Thanks for the reply!

I know what will cost indeed thats a lot of money still tho but my concern lies elsewhere, if I should invest in one thing or the other as my ultimate goal is to turn this into my own business eventually. Like for instance I volunteer in taking pictures at events, festivals and such but I do feel like my gear, at least now, limits me from producing the best results I can.

It's like I know I am going to succeed but something holds me back.

That might be the gear or something else, there are tons of things I still have to learn of course,  no question on that, but which is the best investment for me at this point in order to reach my ultimate goal?

Thanks!


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## nitrous642

PaulWog said:


> nitrous642 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My plan is to shoot weddings mainly for the income as its the most highest paying where i live, christenings, fashion and do various photoshooting projects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a quick list of things:
> 
> 1) Business before photography. You'll hear this from professionals on this forum. I know this first-hand. Various friends, and various family members, have all hired photographers based on factors other than their portfolios (a portfolio still matters of course). For example, an aunt and uncle of mine hired a family photographer based on her popularity, high booking cost, difficulty to book, reputation, and specialization. She specialized in family photography, was really hard to book, cost quite a lot, and she produced TERRIBLE images. She was doing something right, but it wasn't her photos. The same happened for my girlfriend's cousin's wedding... terribly out of focus photos that were composed alright, but overall poorly done stuff... but the business end was solid. My girlfriend's sister's wedding was done well, but it was mostly in photoshop after the fact; everything about it was just alright, but they threw on complicated and fairly well done edits in photoshop... kind of like a great sauce on an okay dish.
> 
> 2) Two cameras, minimum. If you are solo shooting, you *need* two cameras. Ideally there should be a couple people shooting, but you need a backup.
> 
> 3) The pros use full frame cameras at weddings. A smaller format can work just fine, but you *will* be compromising quality in one way or another if you don't choose full frame.
> 
> 4) Some pros use primarily or exclusively prime lenses. I think that takes a lot of balls, and a specific style. I think you should have a 24-70 f2.8 lens for weddings, a 70-200 f2.8 lens, and if you are able to compose properly with it, an ultrawide as well. A macro lens is very important. Everything else is supplementary, but a 35 1.4 or 50 1.4 would be very useful.
> 
> I'll give some examples of usage:
> - ultrawide for the dance floor
> - 70-200 for many different purposes, including shots in the church/wherever
> - 24-70 for varying situations
> - macro for flower shots, ring shots, etc
> - fast prime for certain situations that you want more bokeh, or need more light
> 
> 5) At least a couple speedlights, plus additional lighting equipment.
> 
> For example, a wedding I was at was shot like this:
> - 3 people shot the wedding
> - 2 people were shooting the getting-ready stuff
> - 1 was on video throughout the wedding, 2 were shooting from different angles during the actual ceremony
> - 2 people went out to the beach between the ceremony and the party to do golden hour shots... they needed at least their 24-70 and 70-200, and a couple of speedlights with proper umbrellas and such
> - 2 people shot from about 7:30pm to midnight, they needed their 70-200 and 24-70 and flashes to get all the action including everyone mingling, then the bride and groom and the bride/groom party coming in to their table which is a big moment, etc...
> - 2 people continued to shoot everything going on, they needed the 70-200 to take shots of speeches
> - 2 people continued to shoot when dancing went on, they mostly used flashes and ultrawide lenses
> - They had a photo booth going on set up automatically, extra charge and all that
> 
> 6) It's just ****ing expensive to get all the gear you need, and get all the business down... but with proper gear, good skill, and the business end done properly, theoretically you should do well. You need to think about lots of various business costs which I hear can be quite cumbersome, and little costs like extra batteries, bags, memory cards, extra hard drives, etc.
Click to expand...



Thanks a lot for the tips!

Actually really helpful and almost spot on to my question


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## nitrous642

otherprof said:


> nitrous642 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been trying to figure out what is best for me to do in regards of start charging for my photography for some time now but I can't wrap my head around it that easy as we are talking about big bucks and what I am after here is to spend my budget the most wisely way I possibly can and not waste it on the urge of just buying something expensive as I know this is not how it's done.
> 
> In my case, I own a Canon 600D with a 50mm and 10-22mm for the past 5 years now. I've been shooting since then for my pleasure and as a freelancer for the past 2.5 years, never charged for my work as I am trying to build up a portfolio in order to be able to actually charge (that's my way of thinking at least). I shoot people, landscapes, events, christenings sometimes videos and looking on getting into weddings and take things a step further than just a hobby/amateur photography.
> 
> For the past 8 months I've been thinking of upgrading my gear to something more "serious" for reasons like, better overall image quality, can invest on it in regards to lenses, clients will actually take me seriously, and maybe more confidence will come along the way just to mention a few but that will cost a lot, like for example the Nikon D750/D800/D810 (it's worth the switch to Nikon as far as I looked into it), Canon 5D MKIII/IV, Sony A7R etc (I know the lenses factor and what I like to shoot is a major factor here but just mentioned some of the options I looked into)
> 
> My concern is this,
> 
> Should I? Would it be worth it and will it cover the few reasons I've mentioned above?
> 
> If I should, should I consider those options or maybe consider some mirrorless options like the Fuji or Sony line that is out now.
> 
> Or should I invest on workshops and travelling and expand my knowledge and technique and keep the gear I already have and maybe buy another lens that I want to shoot with?
> 
> I really hope my points are clear to you and thanks a lot for taking the time to read this!
> 
> Looking forward for your greatly appreciated replies!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marios
> 
> 
> 
> More on why a switch from Canon to Nikon is an upgrade, please.
Click to expand...


A Nikon D810 is an upgrade from a Canon 600D


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## nitrous642

fmw said:


> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.



That is a fact BUT how can I book clients and do/look professional with what I have? That extends in going to the event as an individual pro who was booked and rely totally on my 1000$ worth of gear. Is this doable? As I don't feel that comfortable doing that 

But the concern is elsewhere.

I totally understand and agree 100% that gear can't limit you on producing great results as long as you have the knowledge, skill set etc to do so.

But what about when you want to turn this into a business?

Thanks


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## KmH

Few clients of a retail photography business  have any clue, or much care, what make/model camera or other gear the photographer uses as long as the photos made are good enough to meet or exceed their expectations.


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## fmw

nitrous642 said:


> fmw said:
> 
> 
> 
> The equipment isn't the issue.  You have been using your stuff for 5 years.  That means you understand it and know how to manage it.  Whether you shoot for yourself or for a client, the stuff you have will get the job done.  What is more important is finding clients who want to pay for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a fact BUT how can I book clients and do/look professional with what I have? That extends in going to the event as an individual pro who was booked and rely totally on my 1000$ worth of gear. Is this doable? As I don't feel that comfortable doing that
> 
> But the concern is elsewhere.
> 
> I totally understand and agree 100% that gear can't limit you on producing great results as long as you have the knowledge, skill set etc to do so.
> 
> But what about when you want to turn this into a business?
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...


I expressed an opinion.  Others challenged it.  It is up to you to decide what to do.


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