# Starting off your biz with dirt cheap prices



## SabrinaO (Mar 27, 2011)

I see a lot of talk around here on how people aren't charging enough for their services. Some of you might think that of me too... for my  basic portrait session I charge $95 w/cd and includes session fee. 

I would love to charge what I would like to charge but I don't know if people will bite... especially when im up against competition that has $35 and $45 photoshoots that includes everything. 

All of you that say "you aren't charging enough"... didn't YOU start off with cheap/free services?


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## Sw1tchFX (Mar 27, 2011)

If you don't value yourself, who will?

I think my smallest invoice over the past 3 years i've been shooting for pay is $85.90. It was for two hours of work including shoot, post, and delivery. The next smallest invoice i have is $100, the very first job i ever did, shooting interiors for a retirement home.


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## SabrinaO (Mar 27, 2011)

Yeah but ive done a ton of free shoots for a while and now im advertising my services on craigslist. I'm not really getting any paid shoots. I've only gotten 3. I guess i have to market myself out more and advertise. Its just discouraging when the photographers that do $35 dollar shoots get all the clients...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 27, 2011)

So you are a beginner, setting up shop, complaining about other beginners setting up shop?


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 27, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> All of you that say "you aren't charging enough"... didn't YOU start off with cheap/free services?




No. I charged a $150 session fee, straight out the box. And the only thing that includes is a 2 hour in studio session, and a $50 print credit. My 8x10's start at $49, and I don't allow a digital file to leave my studio unless they pay for it. If they are only wanting a disc, its $750 with a personal print release. If they buy certain print packages the price of the disc is reduced by certain incremental amounts. 

Charging 'what people will bite' is not how you run a business. You have overhead - hard costs, and time - that you have to account for. You need to set your pricing so that you can accomplish a certain average sale total, and you also need to set it so that you maintain a 20-35% cost of sale. 

Pricing is not something you pull out of the air willy nilly - its a specifically calculated formula that allows the business to pay for itself, while affording the owner a certain compensation. With experience, and business growth, that compensation will grow - or shrink depending on outside factors.

ETA: *IF* I gave ANYTHING away for free, it was a session. I ONLY gave away time, never anything that had a hard cost (i.e. prints or digital files.)


ETA #2: So you charge $95 for a session. Lets break that down. For a 2 hour photo session, you have:

- 1 hour to set up.
- 2 hours to shoot.
- 4 hours to edit.

At this point, you're only making $13/hour, and this is only time. You need to subtract the cost of studio rent, equipment maintenance, equipment insurance, studio insurance, utilities, the cost of the DVD's. So after all that you're making what $5 an hour? Thats less than minimum wage - and you'll never see that client again because you gave them the images on the disc. So your average sale is now $95, with no hope of increasing that number, and you're left making an hourly rate thats less than what chinese workers in sweat shops do...


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## Big Mike (Mar 27, 2011)

> now im advertising my services on craigslist.


Wow...you're in the big leagues now.      j/k

All kidding aside, if you want to charge real rates, then you need to snag real paying clients...and that is the difference between successful photographers and those people you see shooting for $45.  
Like any business (or life in general), you often get out of something, what you put into it.  In other words, put a lot of thought (and probably a lot of money) into a marketing strategy to get the type of clients that will pay you good money for your service....rather than chumming for the bargain shoppers on Craig's List.  

Sure, easier said than done...but that is why good business skills are as much or more important than good photography skills.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 27, 2011)

Big Mike, are saying things like websites or business cards that look professionally well done may attract a higher paying customer than one that's looks amateurish or homemade?


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## kundalini (Mar 27, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Big Mike, are saying things like websites or business cards that look professionally well done may attract a higher paying customer than one that's looks amateurish or homemade?



Don't forget the watermarked and logoed images.  That's the bread and butter of the industry.


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## LarissaPhotography (Mar 28, 2011)

Sabrina,
I'm going to offer the dissenting opinion here.  I think you're starting out just right.  The fact that you're getting paid to shoot is good progress.  The bottom line for a business is that you can only charge based on value to the customer, and early on, you don't have the experience you need to charge a $500 sitting fee.  Here's the rule of thumb that has brought us through 8 years of business - when you get too busy, raise your prices.

The problem with any advice that says just charge what you want to make is completely ignoring your skill level.  Right now you need to focus on improving in your craft, then when you've stepped up to the next level, step your prices up too.

Again, this is the minority opinion, but I feel like it's the best way to run a business - it's the one that focuses on customer needs instead of photographer needs.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 28, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Its just discouraging when the photographers that do $35 dollar shoots get all the clients...




I missed this yesterday, however:

Why would you want a client who is only going to pay $35 for a shoot? I don't know about you, but that is NOT the client I want. I want a client who values quality, and appreciates a custom product. I want a client who drives a Lexus and carry's a dog in her purse. If she can afford the luxuries of a Lexus, I know she can afford lots of custom wall portraits of little Fido. 

If that craigslist photographer is booking shoots all day long at $35, more power to them. They'll spend a week trying to 'fix' images in post, and only make a portion of what I will in a single session.


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## ClickAddict (Mar 28, 2011)

Christopher,

    I think the problem is the person with the dog in their purse will not pick a new photographer anyway.  Their going to go with someone established.  So is it better for them to make 5$ an hour for a while shooting that customer you dont want while they build their reputation by charging $95 or is it better to up their prices to $250 and get no customers and make $0 /hour and still hage studio/equipment costs?  Also different cities have different markets.  I live in a very small city compared to NY, LA etc..  If/when I decide to take this hobby further and setup shop, I know my prices cannot match those of the larger cities.  People here just wont pay it.


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 28, 2011)

This is why I want to pursue weddings Lol.  If someone wants family pics, then sure I'll do it.  But I won't be trying very hard to get customers.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 28, 2011)

ClickAddict said:


> Also different cities have different markets.  I live in a very small city compared to NY, LA etc..  If/when I decide to take this hobby further and setup shop, I know my prices cannot match those of the larger cities.  People here just wont pay it.


 

Thats an excuse. I know photographers who live in small towns and pull high school seniors from three hours away. Its all in HOW you market, HOW WELL you market, and how aggressively you market.

YOU choose your market, your market doesn't choose you.

And for the record, the town I live in has about 4,000 people. My client this past weekend drove over an hour from Dallas to get to me. She brought her two dogs. And she paid my $150 session fee.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 28, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> This is why I want to pursue weddings Lol.  If someone wants family pics, then sure I'll do it.  But I won't be trying very hard to get customers.


 
You think weddings just come to you? You're in for a rude awakening. The wedding market is one of the most cut-throat markets there is.


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## ClickAddict (Mar 28, 2011)

True, but 3 hours away from me is a hole in the ground.  If you're an hour from Dallas, Dallas is in your market area.  My closest "Dallas" is about 10 hours ride away. Are you good enough to pull in a client that far when you're just a year in the business?  No.  20 years and have countless magazine shoots, quite possibly, but certanly not frequently.  So no we are not in the same situation.  (Not that I've even started a business for this yet)  And yes, even here there will be customers that will pay high prices.  Just not enough to keep a business running.


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## ClickAddict (Mar 28, 2011)

Oh and for the record.  the 150$ session fee is reasonable.  I was referring to some that think even that is too low and photographers should be charging even more.  The "higher end" photographers would not survive here.  Mid range can and do.


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, but it is more rewarding.  Yes there are some crazy photographers out there (including me) who just started out and right away do weddings.  But the # is not as many as family photographers.




ChristopherCoy said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > This is why I want to pursue weddings Lol. If someone wants family pics, then sure I'll do it. But I won't be trying very hard to get customers.
> ...


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## Big Mike (Mar 28, 2011)

ClickAddict said:


> True, but 3 hours away from me is a hole in the ground.  If you're an hour from Dallas, Dallas is in your market area.  My closest "Dallas" is about 10 hours ride away. Are you good enough to pull in a client that far when you're just a year in the business?  No.  20 years and have countless magazine shoots, quite possibly, but certanly not frequently.  So no we are not in the same situation.  (Not that I've even started a business for this yet)  And yes, even here there will be customers that will pay high prices.  Just not enough to keep a business running.


 
Have you ever heard of John Ratchford?  He's out of Cape Breton (which I'm told can have unemployment levels up to 50%) and he does well.  Not only well, but he does much of his business shooting high school seniors...which is almost unheard of in Canada.  When asked how he even stays afloat in a town with 50% unemployment...he says "I market to the other 50%".


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## Big Mike (Mar 28, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Big Mike, are saying things like websites or business cards that look professionally well done may attract a higher paying customer than one that's looks amateurish or homemade?



It's a start...but there is obviously a lot more to it than that.
For example, some photographers I know & work with, spend thousands on making sure that their site shows up on the first page of a Google search of their primary search words..."Location" + Photographers.  
Then there are the trade shows.  I know some photographers who spend a lot on their booths for these shows.
I know one photographer, who has stainless steel business cards that cost $5 each.  They are expensive, but when he hands only one or two out at a wedding, everyone in the room will see it.  
I've met a photographer who goes to several high end salons and places like that...and offers to install a flat screen TV.  He then runs a slideshow / commercial on that screen...directly marketing to the market segment that he wants to work for.


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## bennielou (Mar 28, 2011)

Here's the deal as I know it:

When I first started out, I advertised VERY low pricing.  No one called.  I couldn't get a bite with dentures.  Then someone told me to raise my pricing.  I didn't change ONE THING on my website, and once I changed my pricing, the phone started ringing and never stopped.

Now, don't go crazy with it.  The hard part is to look at the area competition and take a reality check into where you really fit in.  Then adjust you pricing to match and market your butt off.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 28, 2011)

bennielou said:


> Here's the deal as I know it:
> 
> When I first started out, I advertised VERY low pricing.  No one called.  I couldn't get a bite with dentures.  Then someone told me to raise my pricing.  I didn't change ONE THING on my website, and once I changed my pricing, the phone started ringing and never stopped.
> 
> Now, don't go crazy with it.  The hard part is to look at the area competition and take a reality check into where you really fit in.  Then adjust you pricing to match and market your butt off.




I have heard this same exact thing time after time after time. People who WILL pay for professional photography, do not take a craigslist ad seriously. If your prices are cheap, the target client is going to think you don't know what you're doing.

Its like those cheapo depot 'buy here pay here' used car dealerships. They're cars are cheap, and they have clients, but their office building is a shack because they are barely making any money. Where as the new car dealership has cars that are WAY more expensive, and they may have less clients, but those clients are the ones with serious income.


ETA: In fact, two years ago we were struggling to have our wedding clients purchase our mid range package. After doing some research we RAISED our prices.... and now we are selling our LARGE package like hotcakes!


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## vtf (Mar 28, 2011)

Just to make $36,000 a year income you have to bring in $700 a week. At $100 a shoot thats 7 sessions a week.
7 sessions x 1 hour travel set up, 1 hour travel and take down plus 2 hour session equals 28 hours.
7 sessions x 4 hours pp work per session equals 28 hours.
Total equals 56 hours work at $11.58 per hours.
Take 36,000 and subtract 25% income tax, insurance, ss tax etc. equals $27,000. Now its $8.95 hour.
Subtract rent, equipment upgrades, printing expenses, dvds, not to mention *Marketing *alone will take even more time and money.
You'll make more money working at a portrait studio as Manager for $400 a week and probably using better equipment.
The reality is that those who have $50 sessions do not need the money as the main source to survive.


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## Goshdern (Mar 28, 2011)

I just joined the forums last night, but this is exactly the type of thread I need to show my wife.  She has this "everyone is broke" mentality but I keep telling her it's just because you are not marketing to the right people.  From my experience in sales indeed people will pay more just because they believe higher cost equals higher quality.  Also the people who haggle you down to the point where you barely make money will come back 15 times wanting tweeks that will eventually cost you money.  I think you need to price these "bargain shoppers" out!

I agree totally that you have to value yourself if you want others to. (+1 Sw1tchFX)

I've noticed some seem defensive, I think they may be reading the responses wrong.  They are not arguing that things might be bad in your area, I believe they are trying to be motivational;  since the lake is half empty, you should let out more line and get your bait back in the water~


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 28, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Big Mike, are saying things like websites or business cards that look professionally well done may attract a higher paying customer than one that's looks amateurish or homemade?
> ...


 
Of course there is more to it. But I look at some things having a bigger impact than others. A website is a bigger deal than people seem to think. After all, a majority of your marketing efforts, are driving people to your website to get more information. The fact is people DO judge a book by it's cover. I don't think anyone will contest the idea that if you want a higher dollar client, you better look higher dollar. Do facebook pages and craiglist ads scream Quality? No. You are attracting bottom of the barrel customers for the most part. But then, since most of these ventures I see pass through this forum, it's people starting a business before they thouroughly know what they are doing and can deliver a consistant quality product, and get the prices to sustain a business properly.

Look at your excellent examples of people pumping a lot of money into interesting and unique marketing strategies.
Another good example is getting into as many charity silent auctions as you can. There are so many avenues to reach people.


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## KmH (Mar 28, 2011)

vtf said:


> Just to make $36,000 a year income you have to bring in $700 a week. At $100 a shoot thats 7 sessions a week.
> 7 sessions x 1 hour travel set up, 1 hour travel and take down plus 2 hour session equals 28 hours.
> 7 sessions x 4 hours pp work per session equals 28 hours.
> Total equals 56 hours work at $11.58 per hours.
> ...


Change the word income to revenue in the first sentence and it all makes more sense.

The fact is - income is what money is left after all the taxes and non-reimbursable expenses are subtracted from revenue.

Realistically a studio based retail portrait photography business would need to generate revenue in the neighborhood of $120,000 a year ($2700 a week) to produce an income of about $30,000 a year for the owner.

Then factor in that there is no realistic way for a one person business to shoot 52 weeks a year (its more like 46 or 47 weeks).


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## dnavarrojr (Mar 28, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Yes, but it is more rewarding.  Yes there are some crazy photographers out there (including me) who just started out and right away do weddings.  But the # is not as many as family photographers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are comparing VERY experienced, "brand name" photographers against someone without name recognition.  That's apples and oranges.

My two cents is this...  Any business you have survives, thrives and grows based on RESEARCH.  Every minute you are not doing paid work you need to be doing research.  Research on your competition, research on your customers, research on what other people are doing to bring business in.  Based on all of the acquired knowledge you gain from that research, that is how you run your business.  Not one person here can give you a formula for a profitable business of every type and every location.  Every place is different and thus creates different variables which have to be used in YOUR formula for success.

There's a some great advice here and some bad advice.  It's up to you to do the research necessary to discover which is true for you and your business.  If something works, keep doing it.  If something doesn't work, stop doing it.  And when you don't know what to do, do research.

As for pricing... ALWAYS charge the most you can and still get work.   Someone said, when things get busy then raise your rates... and I couldn't agree more.  But when things slow down, resist the urge to immediately lower your rates.  Ride it out for a while before you lower your rates and only do so when absolutely necessary.

And finally...  Based on my own experience...  The more you charge someone, the better "class" of customer you are going to get.  When I was a web designer and I charged low rates I got lots of business, but it really wasn't the kind of business I wanted.  It was clients who wanted a lot for a little and they questioned my judgement constantly because they were "nickle and diming" me to death.  When business was good enough that I raised my rates (quadrupled), I got fewer clients but those clients I did get were the clients I wanted.  Clients who trusted I was the professional who knew what I was doing.  And in the end, I made more money from those fewer clients and more importantly, I worked less because I wasn't constantly doing revisions.  I don't believe for a minute that I could have started my business charging high rates because I didn't have the portfolio to show the quality of my work.  But once I established that portfolio, there was no excuse for not raising my rates.

Having learned that lesson, when I started my video business, I started with low rates to gain clients and build my portfolio.  BUT, having been through it before, I learned to establish up front in a signed contract exactly what I was providing the client, so that when they question me or want changes, I am the one nickle and diming THEM for those revisions and that extra work. So if I work harder for a client, I'm being paid for that work, not giving it away.


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