# My first wedding as 2nd shooter recap



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

This thread is an update to this one.   http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/292890-time-pop-my-cherry.html

There will not be pics in here right now, as I have to wait until they are turned in and received by clients.  I have uploaded and shared a couple thus far, but that's about all I can do for now.

So....let's begin this epic fail journey...

I would first like to thank all of you who gave advice via PM and thread posts along the way.  The information was very useful, and will continue to be so.  I'd like to give a few disclaimers too.  If you feel I am making excuses for things later on, revisit this line.  I am not.  I will however speak of various things that were going on that I felt helped contribute to fail.  I was there, you weren't, so just take my word on it.  If I could have moved, I would have.  If I just plain F'ed up, I'll tell you openly.

While I am hard on myself, and I think this was utter fail, I do think I got off maybe a dozen or so keepers that would make a nice contribution to an album.  I honestly believe I got ZERO shots that I would put in my portfolio.  That is the main reason for my dissapointment.  Other than that, it was a good experience for me and a great learning lesson in areas that I need to focus on to be a better photog.

I will start by talking about the venue a bit.  The place was dark.  As to be expected, but darker than I thought it would be.  It was not in a church.  It was in a sort of "event center".  The whole thing was pretty low budget.  That's not me being a dick, just stating it so if you see antlers on the wall in a background shot or a pool table in the corner, you'll know why.  However, regardless of budget, people deserve a good photographic representation of their event.  So that is what I wanted to do.

I had a very tough time isolating my subjects.  Maybe I'm not supposed to?  I dunno.  Some things in backgrounds are easily cloneable so I tried to shoot for that.  
I had a very tough time bouncing my flash.  Even with all the wisdom imparted upon me prior, this was hard.  It was hard for two reasons.  Firstly, because I don't have the experience, and secondly, the location.  The walls were dark wood.  Like logs.  Vaulted ceilings in main area, slanted in the other.  Open mostly except for poles and at the spot separating the dancefloor and eating area was a half wall about 4 feet high and a hang down from the ceiling.  I was able to bounce off those things nicely at given times.

I never shot flash right at the people, but you'd think I did looking at some of the pics.

anyway, I drifted off there a bit.

So location, kinda covered...I did not get to go outside to shoot, so I was in this lighting nightmare for four hours.

Next, the other photog.

I'll talk about him for a minute just to share my experience, not to poke fun or whatever.   I was set up for failure as far as learning goes as this guy had nothing to teach me.  He wasn't interested in teaching me.  Which is fine, I mean he has to focus on the wedding so I'm cool with that, but I thought and was hoping I could learn a thing or two from watching him.  I did.  I learned what not to do.

His gear.  He was shooting with a D5100 and what looked to me like a kit lens with a wide angle hood on it.  Now, this could have been a mid range zoom fast lens, but to me it really looked like a kit lens.  He did not offer to show me.  I was setting out my gear on the pool table arranging what I wanted to use on what body etc.  He commented on my 50mm and then I set big boy down and he said "what's that one", I replied "it's the 80-200 2.8, I'll use that one when I'm at the back trying to get shots of bride n groom".  He replied, "nice...but you won't need it, I got them covered."  Later on when I brought it out to shoot the couple at the head table he said "ah..bringing out the big boy eh?", to which I said "yeah, I wanna shoot them from back here and not be in your way".

There were a few times he saw me framing up for shots on the bride and he purposely got in my way.  After the 5th or 6th time I just gave up and went on to something else.  He also made a comment when we had a small discussion about the total shots taken thus far.  He asked me how many I shot and I said about 150 ish.  This was about an hour or more into the event.  He told me he was at 400.  You'll know why in a minute.  He made a comment, and I am guessing to which he thought he was teaching me something, he said "yeah....I notice you take your time and frame up your shots.  You're not going to get a lot that way, just keep shooting man...have fun and keep snapping away".  I smiled.  He also said he is a Documentary style shooter.  "weddings are like documentaries....so just shoot them like that."

His style.  I think, and I'm probly wrong, but this is really all I recollect, but I think I saw him put the camera to his eye maybe 5-6 times.  I'm sure there are more but that really is all I can remember.  The rest of the time the camera was in the air, at his waist, near his knees, off to the left...off to the right, you get the picture.  Not using lcd.  Just holding it and actuating shutter.  I cannot for the life of me understand how he is getting properly exposed or in focus shots.  He had to be shooting on full auto or P mode, with full AF-a.  I just don't get it.  Maybe it woks for him, so be it.  But that's now the sort of photog I want to be.  So, that's why I said, I learned nothing from watching him.

So, enough of him and the venue.  On to me.

I really felt lost.  I enjoyed the freedom of being able to walk around and do my own thing.  But for a place this small, I ran out of ideas fast.  I really felt like I did three hours of point and shoot to fill a quota.  I don't like that.  Since I wasn't "allowed", for lack of better words, to shoot the party, I got really bored of shooting the present table, cake, wine glasses, and guests.  I would guess they got tired of my flash nailing them all night too.  Although one guy came after me in the parking lot to ask me for a card, said he liked the way I worked.

I do think I got off some good ones, but again I call it a total fail because I have too many misses.  I was tempted to go back to the 3100 and see if it was just me not knowing the d90.  I did so, and while the shots were exposed, the noise was horrendous.  So, I put it back in the bag, I think I shot 12 total shots with the 3100.

Areas I need to focus on.

-Strobes.  Everything about them.  That's a given.
-Bracketing.  I think it could have helped me get more hits along with my misses.
-Flash Bracketing.  I dunno how, but I am guessing this could have helped me.
-Using flash exposure compensation more (as kerbouchard advised me to in the first place).  I think my irritation with the overall event led me astray in my thinking.
-Learning how to shoot in low light.  (this reminds me of how I felt when I first shot my woman.  For those who follow my stuff, that first one was icky and I was pissed.  I ordered and got my monolight    kit, and a few things, now I shoot great.  In great light.  Not so great, in low light)
-Monopod.  Could have benefited greatly when using my big lens.  Lots of blur from low shutter speed.  That lens has no VR
-Shoulda brought a fong diffuser.  I think that would have helped in times where bouncing was a no go.
-Learning how to be quicker...by that I mean, things move fast and half the time I was not ready to shoot them, so I missed or got blur.  I need to learn how to be ready quicker.  This part I think just comes with experience.

I think there is more, but I'm brain dead now, if I think of more I'll add it in later.

One thing I'll say I'm kinda dissapointed about is that this did not follow a typical, or what I thought was typical, wedding.  People came already ready.  There was no groom getting prepared or bride getting prepared, so I missed out on watching that stuff and learning.  I was just shooting random chit then it was "oh, brides here we are starting".

I did my best to stay out of the mains way, I only got him in one shot accidentally.  I am pretty sure he got me in none.  I kept a close eye on that.

Even though I sound upset, I did enjoy myself.   The mother of the bride and her date were awesome and a few of the guests were cool to interact with.  I did learn a lot, however mostly in what not to do.



Once release is given, I'll update and post up what I think were my winners, and a few of my fails for some C&C.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

I will also add that I am proud of my decisions thus far to turn down the 3 wedding offers I had so far, as I truly believe I could have, and probly would have, made a terribly name for myself.  I believe I do good work, but this event showed me I am not ready for shooting under these type of conditions.


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 29, 2012)

I think it was more of having a poor main photog than a lack of readiness on your part. Still, practice makes perfect.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

Welcome to wedding photography...what you described is pretty much how it is every wedding I have done.  It doesn't get easier...you just get used to it.

As far as the flash, you showed up with a camera that you had 0 days of experience with and a flash that you also had 0 days experience with...what did you expect?

You have a lot to learn, but at least now you know what you need to work on.  As far as the main, he sounds like a tool.  Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't work with him again.

And I don't mean to be harsh.  We are actually pretty similiar.  I grasp concepts instantly.  I learn things very fast and can usually apply them on the go.  You made references to that in your threads.  Something along the lines of you being able to figure it out...

Turns out, there is a lot to figure out, and it takes some time, and some experience to make it all work together.  No matter how smart you are, it can't be done in two days.

Don't worry, with your drive, you will get there, and it sounds like you learned a lot from this experience.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

He was polite and not a jerk, but until I am ready where I can do my own thing admist stupid, I don't plan on working with him.  The only reason I would, is to be able to show myself as better than him, but that's all the wrong reasons.  lolz.

I did not expect to walk away a winner by any means, but I did expect a bit better.  However, I always have higher expectations for myself, even if unrealistic.

Oh, I wanted to point out that this forum saved me from melting the flash.  I recall someone telling me the signs that it might be getting hot, and telling me to watch out for it.  Since I was not used to using it, I was firing off sometimes way too early, etc.  at one point I noticed it taking a long time to charge, I felt it and it was wayyyyyy hot.  I took out the batteries and I swear they were two shots from smoking...they were very hot.  So we took a break and I put in new batteries.  lol.

Without the comments here on that part, I probly would have fried it.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> You have a lot to learn, but at least now you know what you need to work on



Indeed.  I will finish out the summer, and the year doing jobs as 2nd.  I have no desire to take on a wedding at this point.  I honestly don't know that I'll be ready by next season.  We'll see how the year finishes out.  I am now eager to go as a second with the photog from work, who is a real photog, does a great job, and has been for twenty years.  I'd like to see how a good one vs. a bad one goes.  

I'm sure even in the situation I was in, he would have come out with great photographs...so that is the experience I can pull upon, taking a rather "blah" situation and giving the customer nice memories of their event.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

When your pocketbook recovers from the D90 purchase, you need to buy a flash, and then practice.. a lot.  Eventually, it becomes second nature, but it sounds like that is the next step in your photographic journey.


----------



## nmoody (Jul 29, 2012)

Despite all the issues my mentioned I say you have a great learning experience. And I think you nailed it where you said you learned what not to do. Sounds like he uses the spray and pray method while you were making sure you got the shot. 

Thanks a lot for sharing this, its really interesting to see what goes through a persons head when starting out. I have no intentions of ever shooting events so thanks for letting me live through you.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> When your pocketbook recovers from the D90 purchase, you need to buy a flash, and then practice.. a lot.  Eventually, it becomes second nature, but it sounds like that is the next step in your photographic journey.



That's where my head is, so I am glad you echo'ed it.  Let's me know I am on the right track.  To me, that's what I think those of you who do this for a living have...that second nature instinct to adapt given the circumstances.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

nmoody said:


> Despite all the issues my mentioned I say you have a great learning experience. And I think you nailed it where you said you learned what not to do. Sounds like he uses the spray and pray method while you were making sure you got the shot.
> 
> Thanks a lot for sharing this, its really interesting to see what goes through a persons head when starting out. I have no intentions of ever shooting events so thanks for letting me live through you.



You're welcome.  Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.  My hopes, when writing this, was to do just that.  Allow folks to learn by what I go through, or at least see things by what I go through.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

One other thing I forgot to add.  Shadows.  In the practice I have done thus far, especially with studio style lighting, I have learned to erase or minimalize, or utilize effectively shadows.  In this situation, there were huge shadows, almost perfect silhouettes on the walls, walls that were like ten to twenty feet away.  Is there something I could have done to avoid that, or is that just how it is?

It's be better pictorally to show and ask, so I'll revisit the question when I have a picture I can post up to illustrate.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Walking into a wedding at your experience level (even as a second), and using a body you aren't used to.. and other techniques you didn't really have much time to practice for... I would say you are gutsy to say the least!   Sounds to me like the Main was not really what I would call a pro, and that had to make it harder for you.

On the flash... an external battery pack will give you faster recycle times, longer period of shooting, and you won't have to deal with the heat issues in the flash that you mentioned. Most of the better flashes have connectors for them.

You don't want a Fong.. they are omnidirectional, and work best in small area with white walls.. so that all that light can be used. You want something more directional... something that won't waste so much light (which increases your recycle time, and overheating!)  I like the Demb Bounce stuff  Demb Flash Products - Flip-it! the variable-angle flash reflector... and also  scoops like this.. Lite Genius Lite-Scoops home page. There are a lot of DIY articles on how to make bounce gear also... just google it.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> One other thing I forgot to add.  Shadows.  In the practice I have done thus far, especially with studio style lighting, I have learned to erase or minimalize, or utilize effectively shadows.  In this situation, there were huge shadows, almost perfect silhouettes on the walls, walls that were like ten to twenty feet away.  Is there something I could have done to avoid that, or is that just how it is?
> 
> It's be better pictorally to show and ask, so I'll revisit the question when I have a picture I can post up to illustrate.


Change the angle of your flash.  Find the areas in the room that a bounce in a certain direction works well...avoid those that don't.  Honestly, it really is that simple.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> One other thing I forgot to add.  Shadows.  In the practice I have done thus far, especially with studio style lighting, I have learned to erase or minimalize, or utilize effectively shadows.  In this situation, there were huge shadows, almost perfect silhouettes on the walls, walls that were like ten to twenty feet away.  Is there something I could have done to avoid that, or is that just how it is?
> 
> It's be better pictorally to show and ask, so I'll revisit the question when I have a picture I can post up to illustrate.



larger softer light source will minimize that....


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > One other thing I forgot to add.  Shadows.  In the practice I have done thus far, especially with studio style lighting, I have learned to erase or minimalize, or utilize effectively shadows.  In this situation, there were huge shadows, almost perfect silhouettes on the walls, walls that were like ten to twenty feet away.  Is there something I could have done to avoid that, or is that just how it is?
> ...



Spoken by somebody who has never shot a wedding reception.  You can't always set up your shot and use a studio light.  Most of the times, you just have to adapt and figure it out as you go.  A wedding reception is taken with bounced flash, not studio lights...


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > One other thing I forgot to add.  Shadows.  In the practice I have done thus far, especially with studio style lighting, I have learned to erase or minimalize, or utilize effectively shadows.  In this situation, there were huge shadows, almost perfect silhouettes on the walls, walls that were like ten to twenty feet away.  Is there something I could have done to avoid that, or is that just how it is?
> ...



Sometimes I'm not sure that my flash even did the shadows.  I angled all over the place.  Typically was up a bit, not vertical, or to the left about 45 degrees or straight out depending on what was there to bounce off.  There were a few times I got it right, so it was not a total loss on the bouncing lessons.  So, when practicing, I will write down angles and results so my brain can put the two together.  At this point, I know most of my bounce directions, but can't say for certain on each shot.  Again, this will come with time and practice I would imagine.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Walking into a wedding at your experience level (even as a second), and using a body you aren't used to.. and other techniques you didn't really have much time to practice for... I would say you are gutsy to say the least!   Sounds to me like the Main was not really what I would call a pro, and that had to make it harder for you.
> 
> On the flash... an external battery pack will give you faster recycle times, longer period of shooting, and you won't have to deal with the heat issues in the flash that you mentioned. Most of the better flashes have connectors for them.
> 
> You don't want a Fong.. they are omnidirectional, and work best in small area with white walls.. so that all that light can be used. You want something more directional... something that won't waste so much light (which increases your recycle time, and overheating!)  I like the Demb Bounce stuff  Demb Flash Products - Flip-it! the variable-angle flash reflector... and also  scoops like this.. Lite Genius Lite-Scoops home page. There are a lot of DIY articles on how to make bounce gear also... just google it.




Thanks for the recognizing of the guts.  lol.

I'll check those links...I could see where a battery pack could have been useful if they aren't a pain to carry around.  I only blew through 8 batteries....but recycle times did drag on nearing end of battery life, it was very noticeable.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Ernicus said:
> ...



I generally point my flash behind me and to the left.  In landscape mode, that works fine.  In portrait mode, the SB600 cannot rotate to the required angle.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ernicus said:
> ...



WRONG! I have probably shot more weddings than you have.. but never as a second!    I am not talking studio lights.....  just getting the flash high enough to put the shadows low, and using a diffuser or bounce setup that will soften the light and minimize the shadows! Yes.. on a bracket, although I suppose some people are too cool to do that anymore!


----------



## momo3boys (Jul 29, 2012)

Welcome to wedding photography! It is a chaotic job but I love it anyway.  Dark is hard, but better than those stupidly decorated halls full of mirrors! Who thinks of these things!?! It sounds like you learned a lot of what to do and what not to do. As a second I spend most of my time telling people where to stand, where to look, taking the background shots etc.. I also spend a lot of time doing things that have nothing to do with photography. The make-up artist doesn't show up so I'm in, the hairstylist is going to slow, the mother of the bride is panicking and no ones else notices.. A wedding photographer's job is always varied! I'd be interested in seeing what the main guys shots looks like if he was literally shooting from the hip! That's just crazy!

As far as the flash goes; its a lot of practice. I ALWAYS use my diffuser. That should help with the strong shadows... Don't give up. Keep shooting and learning!


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



I noticed.  lol.  Many times I wanted to bounce it to the right in portrait mode.  I did left and up a lot, left and angled I think is where I got lots of the shadows from.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Ernicus said:
> ...



A bracket solves that issue also.. you can rotate the flash to keep it above the camera... (and NEVER use bare flash!)


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

momo3boys said:


> Welcome to wedding photography! It is a chaotic job but I love it anyway.  Dark is hard, but better than those stupidly decorated halls full of mirrors! Who thinks of these things!?! It sounds like you learned a lot of what to do and what not to do. As a second I spend most of my time telling people where to stand, where to look, taking the background shots etc.. I also spend a lot of time doing things that have nothing to do with photography. The make-up artist doesn't show up so I'm in, the hairstylist is going to slow, the mother of the bride is panicking and no ones else notices.. A wedding photographer's job is always varied! I'd be interested in seeing what the main guys shots looks like if he was literally shooting from the hip! That's just crazy!
> 
> As far as the flash goes; its a lot of practice. I ALWAYS use my diffuser. That should help with the strong shadows... Don't give up. Keep shooting and learning!



I'm curious what he came out with as well.  I can only imagine.  I might get to see them, might not.  Time will tell.

I did use the little pop out diffuser thing built into the flash, that helped.  But didn't have anything else on me to diffuse per se.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



I found I had to angle it more than I wanted to, if I did straight up, or straight left, it was too dark, so I moved it a click, either in or down, and then too bright sometimes...sometimes was ok.  Amazing how one click had such an effect.

I thought of bracketing later and I practiced today and learned where the controls were and set up the custom menu, so I'll be ready to use that option more.  I think that would have helped me a lot.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

Bracketing exposure is not the answer.  It needs to be right.  Period.  Either know enough to do it right or don't do it at all.  Choosing a crutch like bracketing in the hopes that at least one is right is ridiculous.

Learn it...that way you won't have to worry about things like bracketing and when you see that special 'moment' develop in front of you, you won't have to worry about where you are at in your bracketing sequence.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Charlie, you took the words from my mouth. A flash bracket is the best way I know to kill the weird shadows you get with a hot shoe flash when shooting portrait.

And OP, after reading your whole post, and several after, it all seems to boil down to this:

You were completely unfamiliar with the gear you were using, and your lead photog was also a n00b and therefore wasn't capable of directing or instructing you.  This is both your fault and the lead's. He had no business bringing you on if he wasn't prepared to direct you properly. I'm sure you've learned the VERY hard lesson that wedding photography is not something to be taken lightly. A few dozen hours of practice from now, you'll be a lot better prepared to kill it next time.

I'm looking forward to seeing your shots.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Bracketing exposure is not the answer.  It needs to be right.  Period.  Either know enough to do it right or don't do it at all.  Choosing a crutch like bracketing in the hopes that at least one is right is ridiculous.
> 
> Learn it...that way you won't have to worry about things like bracketing and when you see that special 'moment' develop in front of you, you won't have to worry about where you are at in your bracketing sequence.



I was going to bracket some, but as a crutch as mentioned.  Only to help me maybe get a shot or two right.  So, I agree it's not a learning tool, or would not have been in my case, but a way to maybe get one right and review later on why.

I also didn't want to add more pictures in the way of 2 more for each 1, lol.  what a nightmare later on sorting all that crap out.

I figured out there how to do the regular bracketing in camera easily enough, but not flash bracketing, another reason I figured I'd wait to see what that is for and why later on.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> Bracketing exposure is not the answer.  It needs to be right.  Period.  Either know enough to do it right or don't do it at all.  Choosing a crutch like bracketing in the hopes that at least one is right is ridiculous.
> 
> Learn it...that way you won't have to worry about things like bracketing and when you see that special 'moment' develop in front of you, you won't have to worry about where you are at in your bracketing sequence.



Are you talking to me, or Ernicus? I was talking a flash BRACKET.. as in hardware!  Not Flash Bracketing.... (Although Ernicus did mention that above I think!) and I do agree with you there.. flash bracketing doesn't work well at a wedding or other events...


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...




While I appreciate your input, did you read the other thread that led up to this one?  We all know I went in blind on the gear level, as I just received it the day of.  lol.  Sure I could have used my 3100 with the flash, but I don't think I would have come out any better under the circumstances.  The true issue was not so much my gear, but the inexperience with this type of shooting.  Yes, knowing my gear would have helped, don't get me wrong.  That mixed with zero useful direction and my inexperience just spelled disaster.  lol.  While my posts show frustration, I am not that upset about it, as I walked away with many valuable lessons.


It's no ones fault that I was not prepared but my own.  I knew that going into it.  However I opted to accept and do it for the experience of what it is like.  Sure the other photog could have helped me, had he not been a tool, but really that was not his job, and he was not interested in the least bit about having a second there.  I was only there because the photog company had a contractual obligation to fill and my photog buddy recommended me.

So there is no arguing I was not ready.  Well, not ready to shoot alone...I think I am ready enough to experience it as a second...with guidance.  That is what led to fail on this one, not counting my own inexperience...was the lack of guidance.

But really I am not looking for blame or fault.  I was looking for learning.  I got it.  Even if it was learning what not to do, which is just as valuable at times.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Bracketing exposure is not the answer.  It needs to be right.  Period.  Either know enough to do it right or don't do it at all.  Choosing a crutch like bracketing in the hopes that at least one is right is ridiculous.
> ...




I thought you meant bracketing, my bad.  Whats a flash bracket?  well, I guess I can google it.


----------



## CCericola (Jul 29, 2012)

Instead of Gary Fong's lightsphere I recommend this instead. Westcott Micro Apollo Softbox - 5 x 8" (13 x 20cm) 2200 B&H
Unless the venue has low, light colored cilings the "fong dong" wastes a lot of light and will kill your batteries. I like the westcott much better




In this case I used a 580ex2 (canon) and the westcott. I normally put more flash units around the venue but we were unable to.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



I use this one currently...  DIGITAL PRO "T" BRACKET

used this one back in the film days.. with a custom built trigger mounted on the handle...  RL 2000 FLASH BRACKET


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

CCericola said:


> Instead of Gary Fong's lightsphere I recommend this instead. Westcott Micro Apollo Softbox - 5 x 8" (13 x 20cm) 2200 B&H
> Unless the venue has low, light colored cilings the "fong dong" wastes a lot of light and will kill your batteries. I like the westcott much better
> 
> 
> ...



That is a good call! The Apollo does well, and is not overly large. I have even shot some events with my 9x9 lastolite, but it is a little bulky...


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> While I appreciate your input, did you read the other thread that led up to this one?  We all know I went in blind on the gear level, as I just received it the day of.  lol.  Sure I could have used my 3100 with the flash, but I don't think I would have come out any better under the circumstances.  The true issue was not so much my gear, but the inexperience with this type of shooting.  Yes, knowing my gear would have helped, don't get me wrong.  That mixed with zero useful direction and my inexperience just spelled disaster.  lol.  While my posts show frustration, I am not that upset about it, as I walked away with many valuable lessons.
> 
> 
> It's no ones fault that I was not prepared but my own.  I knew that going into it.  However I opted to accept and do it for the experience of what it is like.  Sure the other photog could have helped me, had he not been a tool, but really that was not his job, and he was not interested in the least bit about having a second there.  I was only there because the photog company had a contractual obligation to fill and my photog buddy recommended me.
> ...



Yes, I read your ENTIRE previous thread. I spend way too much time on this forum. I wasn't trying to be smart at all. From where I'm sitting your dumba$$ lead shooter left you hanging big time. I've never talked down too, or been jerky sarcastic to a photog I'm working with. And "pulling out the big boy" referring to a 80-200 is LAUGHABLE, and about the most amateur thing I've heard from a supposed professional. A 300mm f/2.8 VRII or a 200mm f/2.0 yeah......but a 80-200??

I'm really glad you feel like you learned valuable lessons from this experience. Stress and embarrassment are a great motivator and teacher.

And, I think with a true professional offering guidance and constructive criticism on location, I think you'd have had a vastly different experience.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

I wish I had as much light as in that picture.  lol  they turned off all the lights and the place was lit up with christmas light type of string lights, like on my wine glass shot.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

on another note, what's best way to get rid of red eye in post?  I never had to before as I never got red eye before.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> *And, I think with a true professional offering guidance and constructive criticism on location, I think you'd have had a vastly different experience*.



Definitely!


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > *And, I think with a true professional offering guidance and constructive criticism on location, I think you'd have had a vastly different experience*.
> ...



My next trip will be with Noel, the fellow photog who teaches at my work, so I'll have a much different experience to report about when that happens next month.


----------



## Kerbouchard (Jul 29, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > Bracketing exposure is not the answer.  It needs to be right.  Period.  Either know enough to do it right or don't do it at all.  Choosing a crutch like bracketing in the hopes that at least one is right is ridiculous.
> ...



One of the people I shoot with does use a flash bracket.  I do not and don't personally care to.  I can see where the confusion occured.

In any case, the only time a shadow would change is if the flash is being used directly, which it should never be.  That type of bracket is also a crutch.


----------



## MK3Brent (Jul 29, 2012)

I admire that you actually are humble to the experience. 
Too many times, I see people post about a wedding they "shot" and they're so awful... yet so proud of their work. 

You can usually tell after 5 mins of talking to another photographer about their gear whether or not they have a clue. From the sounds of it, the 1st shooter was either trolling you or actually doesn't know anything. I agree with another poster here, you should avoid working with that person again in the future.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > While I appreciate your input, did you read the other thread that led up to this one?  We all know I went in blind on the gear level, as I just received it the day of.  lol.  Sure I could have used my 3100 with the flash, but I don't think I would have come out any better under the circumstances.  The true issue was not so much my gear, but the inexperience with this type of shooting.  Yes, knowing my gear would have helped, don't get me wrong.  That mixed with zero useful direction and my inexperience just spelled disaster.  lol.  While my posts show frustration, I am not that upset about it, as I walked away with many valuable lessons.
> ...




Lol, you read too much on here too?  no way...lol.  I know you weren't being a smartazz, me neither..I was givin ya chit, I'm glad you picked up on the "big boy" comment, I too thought that was laughable.  It's an old good lens...but yeah... lol.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

MK3Brent said:


> I admire that you actually are humble to the experience.
> Too many times, I see people post about a wedding they "shot" and they're so awful... yet so proud of their work.
> 
> You can usually tell after 5 mins of talking to another photographer about their gear whether or not they have a clue. From the sounds of it, the 1st shooter was either trolling you or actually doesn't know anything. I agree with another poster here, you should avoid working with that person again in the future.



While a lot of people like a lot of my work, there are very few that I have done thus far that I say I am proud of.  

I know the type you speak of, I see them in person at work, and here online.  They annoy the piss out of me, lol.  There is a difference between creative opinions and that sort, and just plain bad photography.  Glad I learned at least that part early.  lolol


----------



## Heitz (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks for the detailed, candid, entertaining, and thoughtful review of this experience.  Did the main really use a 5100 with a kit lens?  that's pretty ballsy.  (course, he's SO GOOD he could shoot with a disposable...)


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

Heitz said:


> Thanks for the detailed, candid, entertaining, and thoughtful review of this experience.  Did the main really use a 5100 with a kit lens?  that's pretty ballsy.  (course, he's SO GOOD he could shoot with a disposable...)



Lol.  Yeah, he did.  I did not want to make a "lets bash the fauxtographer" sort of thing, instead I have an honest accurate review of my experience.  

It could have been a mid range fast zoom, but I really doubt it.  Given how he shot, I am guessing he kept it at a wide angle for later cropping by the person making up the album.  This is all speculation.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> That type of bracket is also a crutch.



George, do you realize that when you make statements like that, you're presenting your opinion as fact, and you come off as a judgmental a$$?

That's the main reason so many people hate Ken Rockwell, aside from the fact that he's an amateur hack.

Thousands of full-time pros use that type of bracket. I don't think they would consider it a crutch. It's a tool, just like everything else we all use.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



Since when is using a tool that improves your lighting a crutch? LOL! So is doing something in post a crutch too?   How about flashes.. they must be a crutch also!


----------



## shefjr (Jul 29, 2012)

OP, thanks for sharing your story. I give you a lot of credit for attempting a wedding shoot with such little experience with your new gear. Wedding photography for me would be far too stressful. I don't think I would ever attempt it because it doesn't sound fun. Wedding photographers are impressive adaptive photogs all of which I am not. Lol


----------



## RyanLilly (Jul 29, 2012)

Whether or not you think the bracket is a crutch, I have heard good things about the Press T; its a smaller version of the Pro T. However useful many of these tools can be there are usually trade-offs. Adding a flash bracket, external battery, and softbox or  bouncer, can make for a clumsy, cumbersome, contraption. Sometimes simpler easier. I did some shots for a band and a couple of dancers at a bar once(just for fun), that was completely painted flat black, floor to ceiling. The only thing I could do was use direct flash(mortal sin, I know) and drag the shutter Like it was nobody's business.
   The right tool and skills for one situation could be completely useless in another. Not all receptions can be in a ballroom with 15' white ceilings. Sometimes a bracket might help, sometimes a strobe in the corner of the room may be just the right trick. There are defiantly wrong was to do things, but many, many right ways, it just depends on who you ask.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

I would like to publicly thank Tyler for helping me out tonight.  

I have talked to many of you via PM and I thank you too.  So I hope this does not overshadow the help all of you have given me.  

I like to work on things until they click.  Tyler talked with me a bit over the web, gave me an exercise to do here in the house, and after doing so, explained real world application of it.  It all clicked at that point.  What all of those who had been helping me and what he said all fell into place.  I look at my photos from last night and I can now point out in each one where I failed and more importantly....why.

Thanks Tyler.


*note*
I can now see even more what a douche the other photog was, had he taken 5 minutes to ask how I was doing and if I needed any help, he could have helped me, as I am sure many of you here could have were we in person shooting.  So another point to being second.  You're only going to "learn" what to actually do and improve on if you are with a good experienced photog.  So if you are considering starting in this bizz and want to be a 2nd shooter, be selective.  I wasn't.  I'm not hurt from it as far as reputation, so I'll survive.  I damn sure wasn't helped from it though, other than the what nots I've taken away from the experience.


----------



## o hey tyler (Jul 29, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> I would like to publicly thank Tyler for helping me out tonight.
> 
> I have talked to many of you via PM and I thank you too.  So I hope this does not overshadow the help all of you have given me.
> 
> ...



Anything I can do to help, bud! :thumbup: 

It takes some cojones to shoot a wedding, even as a second shooter. I commend your willingness to try, and combat a douchey primary shooter with less equipment than you. Even if you weren't satisfied with your shots like you thought you would be, you still made it through the night in once piece. Pat yourself on the back!


----------



## rokvi (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks Ernicus, for letting us in on your experience. It sounds to me like the main photog uses seconds in a hope that they will be inexperienced and something for the client to compare. Throwing out the "bringing out the big boy" remark was probably done in the hope that you'd put it away. At least you did learn from it though.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 29, 2012)

rokvi said:


> Thanks Ernicus, for letting us in on your experience. It sounds to me like the main photog uses seconds in a hope that they will be inexperienced and something for the client to compare. Throwing out the "bringing out the big boy" remark was probably done in the hope that you'd put it away. At least you did learn from it though.




He'd rather not shoot with seconds at all, he feels he doesn't need them.

I definitely had him out geared, too bad I was inexperienced, I really could have come out a winner had I known what to do.  lol.


----------



## Rwsphotos (Jul 29, 2012)

The fact that you came way with the what not to do knowledge is as important as every thing else.  Yes if you plan to second shoot be selective about who you work with. Your success as a second depends as much on your ability as it does on the primary shooter being willing to work with you.  Its a shame he wasn't but you will over come his failure to teach and be better off for it. Been there done that know the experience.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Jul 30, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> rokvi said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Ernicus, for letting us in on your experience. It sounds to me like the main photog uses seconds in a hope that they will be inexperienced and something for the client to compare. Throwing out the "bringing out the big boy" remark was probably done in the hope that you'd put it away. At least you did learn from it though.
> ...




had him outgeared and by hearing how he was firing from the hip and not bothering to use the viewfinder probalaby have out experienced. I had a feeling he would be that type of person. Its sad that your there to help him out and he has to act the way he did, regardless if he can do the job or not two people shooting means a better chance at getting more great shots and making the client more happy.  Even though you considered this a failure  I would cal it more of a success, You seem to be learning a lot from the situation and that will help you for the next time. If it was a succsess you likely would not have learned as much as you are.  I  need to post up my wedding failure as well here lol.


----------



## skiboarder72 (Jul 31, 2012)

shefjr said:


> Wedding photographers are impressive adaptive photogs all of which I am not. Lol



Keep talking :heart:


----------



## Gaqua77 (Aug 11, 2012)

Its okk.... there is a first time for everyone. Everyone has to do something first time in their life. Well done now you are not going to be called as a beginner, next time when you will take wedding shots


----------



## pgriz (Aug 11, 2012)

Ernicus, I am impressed.  The willingness to discuss one's shortcomings (whatever the reason and cause) in a public forum, and to extract from the experience the learning lessons is a mark of a great deal of maturity and humility.  And to share this so that others can learn, is very generous (and brave!) on your part.

I have taken part in many weddings, and shot quite a few as the "family photographer".  All of the weddings had professional photographers (and seconds) doing their thing, and it has always been interesting to talk to them.  The most professional were well-equipped (two cameras each shooter, flashes with external battery packs, cameras with good high-ISO performance, lenses with f/2.8 or better maximum apertures, etc.), and their shooting approaches were well-structured and they had their key spots picked.  The less professional often had only one camera each, and were usually running after the action.  Many of the venues were difficult and those in churches were almost always without flash.  Crowd control was a big difference between the "good" pros and the "semi-pros" - the good ones had all the key shots choreographed and directed the parties through the set pieces rather efficiently.  The "semi-pros" were scouting out the shooting locations for the group shots and the individual shots during the wedding event - with hit-and-miss results.

When talking to these photographers, their attitude also distinguished the seasoned pros from the semis.  The good ones were pretty relaxed and were quite willing to discuss what they were doing and how.  Their flow was relaxed up to the key moments, when they were all business, and in between the key moments, they would kinda step back and observe.   The "semi-pros" were rather standoffish and often brushed me off with "sorry, I'm busy".  I was OK with that, but what I observed is that they were just hanging around looking for opportunities to do the snaps. It was also clear that the good ones did a lot of preparation beforehand, and had obviously scouted out the shooting locations and had discussed with the bridal party the sequence of shots.  

Of the equipment discussion that preceded my post, some used brackets, most did not.  The pros used bounce flash a lot, some with diffusers, most not.  The semi-pros never had flash brackets, and often shot direct flash.

Ultimately, the difference seems to be that the real pros were prepared, both with the right equipment for the job (which they knew how to use), and with the preparation and sequencing of shots.  

May your next wedding shooting experience be with a good professional who can give you clear instructions and even more importantly, show by example how to do these events.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 11, 2012)

1) Buy a GOOD flash bracket and learn how to use it. Not one of these e-Bay cheapies.

2)DIY a Norman round reflector and diffuser to go with your flash for the times when bounce flash is out of the question, and you can shoot ON-camera flash that looks absolutely beautiful, and will not give you redeye, ever, even from as far away as 100 feet. PM me for details if you're interested.

3) WOW...just "wow" Good write-up...what a surreal experience that day must have been. Well-written, informative, illustrative, tragi-comic.

4) Again, Wow! zOMG!


----------



## Mach0 (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm not sure what flash you have or your settings but something that I would recommend in bouncing flash is to set it in manual mode. You can zoom the flash better and control the the power level. That should help when you bounce. Some people like ttl- but the minute you change settings the flash will change. Manual will bring more consistency.


----------



## Ernicus (Aug 11, 2012)

Sorry for not updating, been crazy busy.  thanks to those who responded and thanks pgriz and darrel...I appreciate your comments.

mach, I was full TTL that day, and since then I took a flash class here locally and picked up a few more pointers...one was using manual vs ttl...so tip echoed.

Still no pics to update, sorry, the douchebag has not submitted, or they have not finished editing his shots, so there is still no release on them, so I can't post publicly yet.  Once I can, I will.

For all those who chimed in with help, I have another thread of a pinup shoot tomorrow I am going to and I'd love some adive/tips there.  This time I will not be flying solo, Noel, the pro photog who teaches at my work is the one who invited me, so I'll have direction and help.  Yay!  lol.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...oot-needed-first-time-shooting-pro-model.html


----------



## Ernicus (Aug 11, 2012)

Mach0 said:


> I'm not sure what flash you have or your settings but something that I would recommend in bouncing flash is to set it in manual mode. You can zoom the flash better and control the the power level. That should help when you bounce. Some people like ttl- but the minute you change settings the flash will change. Manual will bring more consistency.



about your last statement, more for others lurking than for you...I will say that was also stated to me.  in a condition like I was in where the lighting was the same throughout the event...I should have found the setting that was appropriate via manual mode...and used it for the entire event (give or take), so during pp, if there was a bit of adjustments needed, I could have used a single action to fix or adjust all of the photos as the adjustment would be the same among all the photos given the conditions and settings would be constant so the "fixes" would also be constant across the board.  So good advice echoed there as well.


----------

