# Night time fire scene



## willow529 (Nov 27, 2011)

Need a way to photograph the fire fighters in low light or at night with out getting just the reflective strips on the bunker gear...


----------



## Josh66 (Nov 27, 2011)

If you have either a light meter or a digital camera, it should be fairly straightforward...

Light meter, just take a reading and use whatever it says (you'll need to do that under the same light the subject will be under ... which might not be possible at an actual fire...)...

Digital camera, check the LCD and adjust as required...

You could probably also spot meter on the fire - just make your settings so that it's 2-3 stops over-exposed.  (More or less, depending on how far they are from it.)


Assuming digital, a combination of the last 2 options should work fine.  Spot meter on the fire, then adjust.


----------



## photo guy (Nov 27, 2011)

I am a Fire Dept. Photographer.  I have this issue once in a while though it used to be a lot.  Are you a dept photographer or someone that just showed up to take photos (media, freelance, other).  If you are doing this for the dept talk to the chief and see what can be worked out to get more lighting on the scene by using the scene lights on the trucks to light up the scene more.  That is what I did and it has finally worked on the last 3 night fires.  My area gets more fires in the day than at night.  You could try to get a little closer as long as you are granted permission and stay in a safe area so you can use light given off by the truck to help with the lighting.  That is a trick I picked up early on.  Hope this helps and if you need or want more info. just let me know.


----------



## willow529 (Nov 28, 2011)

I do a website for several depts and get taken out on the engines to fire scenes some at night if the flash goes off all I get are the bars on the turnouts...I have tried no flash and longer exposure on a tripod but that only works if I am taking thier portrates in daylight not at night when people arent still..the some times I can utilize the light from the fire...as long as there is no flash to light up the bars on the gear...


----------



## willow529 (Nov 28, 2011)

everyone is usually to busy to mess with the lights  I just try to stay out of the way and get the best shots I can but thanks so much for your input


----------



## photo guy (Nov 28, 2011)

just take a minute to talk to the chief or the personnel on duty and explain the situation to them and how it benifits them too with better photos of their scenes should something happen like a lawsuit.  Pictures say a thousand words if not more on a fire scene.  I used to go on calls with my dad on the Vol. Dept. he was with for 12 years and help by doing the photos for him while he was fighting the fires before going in to investigate.  Now I am a dept. photographer.  I used to have the same problem. I kept talking to the personnel with little help so after the photos weren't up to par and they kept complaining I gave them the ultimatum by telling the chief my ultimatum: Followin Options: 1. Work with me and turn on the scene lights 2. If they couldn't do this due to the fire intensity then train me how to operate them so I can get the lighting 3. I don't show up on night fires.   They rapidly started to cooperate and turn on the lights prior to my arrival.  Now the new problem: they get the fire put out faster than I can get to the scenes and get set up.  They asked me how I think this can be solved.  I told them give me lights and a siren and see how fast I show up.  Then they said sorry for asking.  I thought it was funny.


----------



## willow529 (Nov 28, 2011)

this is great info,,,,are you on facebook?


----------



## Destin (Nov 28, 2011)

Being the unofficial dept. photographer for my volunteer dept, I hasome experience in this. I don't really shoot on scene anymore (we're understaffed, so it's all hands on deck when we get a call, the photos are less important than preservation of life and property obviously). The best answer I can give you, is use the scene lights to your advantage. At night, there will most likely be honda lights running all over the place, the scene lights on the trucks will be on, and the light towers will be up (if the trucks are equipped with them). You have to look and see where there is light, and use it to your advantage. Also, you can avoid catching the reflective strips with flash by getting your flash off camera. It's all about angles with light, and if the flash is angled so that it doesn't bounce light off of the subject and directly at your camera, you won't get as much reflection from the strips. 

My question for you is; what type of camera are you using? Equipped with something good in low light, and a fast, professional lens, you could easily shoot most fire scenes with just the ambient light from the fire. You'd need something great at high iso's though, at least a Nikon D7000, and preferably a D700. Or the D3s, which would be the absolute best camera money could buy for low light. As far as lenses, fast primes are your friend. On a budget, a 50 1.8 will do the trick for around $100. Even a 2.8 zoom is going to be pretty slow for shooting with this small an amount of light. Something like an 85 1.4 would be ideal. This is one of the few types of photography where having the proper equipment really is essential, and the right equipment isn't cheap. 

However, it can be done with a lesser camera, you just need to get a bit creative with it, and use a tripod. These were taken a few years ago, before I really knew much about photography. Used my D40 on a tripod with a 50 1.8. 













EDIT: I'd post some newer examples of my work, however per dept. regulations I'm not allowed to. The only reason I can post the ones above is that they were taken before I was officially a member of the dept. and therefore I, not the dept, owns the rights to them. Beyond that due to legal and financial issues, my dept. prohibits me from using my own camera gear on calls because we aren't allowed to take copies of the photos home without approval through our commisioners, blah blah blah, I hate the politics behind it all, but I love being in the fire service.


----------



## radiorickm (Nov 28, 2011)

Here are my thoughts on this....

Let me preface this post by saying that I was a photojournalist covering breaking news for over two years, followed by working for a Fire Department as an on scene command officer for 6 years.  I am not particularly fond of what the first poster advised you of. This is not meant as an insult; if it works for him great. But if some photogrpaher told me as a command officer how I had to set up my lights, I assure you my size 13 bunker boot would have been high up his....camera case.

Destin has some good ideas, or at least the proper questions for you.

NOW, from the photographer side of me.....

Photography is about light. There is lots of light produced by a fire. You just have to learn how to use it. 
Shooting fire scenes involves shooting under a high dynamic range situation. You Probably aren't going to expose properly for all elements of the scene. This is where you move into manual mode, and choose which element will be the focal point of the photo, and expose for it. This may mean using a large aperture, maybe igh ISO. These pictures probably aren't meant to be fine art; the object is to capture the moment.

My second suggestions, is the photo should be about the people, the vounteers, not the fire. Get pictures of them working...doing what they do. Silhouettes of firefighters back sides agaist a fire will only get you so far. I'm not suggest you follow them into the fire, but there is plenty of action outside you can photograph. 

Good luck...Rick


----------



## willow529 (Nov 28, 2011)

hey thanks Rick


----------



## photo guy (Nov 28, 2011)

Thank you Willow529 on your interest.  No, I am not on Facebook.  If you would like to message me I would be happy to give you my email so I can answer your questions more indepth for you if you would like.


----------



## photo guy (Nov 28, 2011)

I read your post Radiorickm.  I can see where you are coming from, however, each dept and all personnel are different on their methods.  It all takes cooperation on from both sides to make it work best.  What I posted is what happened to work for me and that is why I posted it saying he could try to talk to them.  I do not mean he has to.  While you say people, people, people, the fire is just as important to photograph especially if it is a major fire.  Photos of the fire can be used in the investigation and that is just as important as photos of the personnel working the call as well as the individuals standing watching the fire.  You never know when those photos are going to be needed.  I can post some of my photos if you would like to see how far I have come.


----------



## Destin (Nov 28, 2011)

photo guy said:


> I read your post Radiorickm.  I can see where you are coming from, however, each dept and all personnel are different on their methods.  It all takes cooperation on from both sides to make it work best.  What I posted is what happened to work for me and that is why I posted it saying he could try to talk to them.  I do not mean he has to.  While you say people, people, people, the fire is just as important to photograph especially if it is a major fire.  Photos of the fire can be used in the investigation and that is just as important as photos of the personnel working the call as well as the individuals standing watching the fire.  You never know when those photos are going to be needed.  I can post some of my photos if you would like to see how far I have come.



Great, the photos can be used in an investigation. Tell the fire investigator to show up before you have the fire out to take some photos then. Our job, as a fire dept. is to preserve life, and property, while keeping ourselves safe. 

Telling a Chief/Line Officer to change the way his lights are positioned, no matter who you are, is going to get you thrown out of the fire scene in my area. The person you're telling to change the lights around doesn't give a flying #$% about the photos. He's worried about his interior crew, and their advancement first and foremost. Beyond that he has to worry about his ventilation team on the roof, keeping water flowing (in a rural area like mine, we don't have many hydrants), as well as keeping dispatch up to date, etc. When you as a photographer come up and takes his attention away from the priorities, he's not going to like you. Period. 

Beyond that, shooting photojournalism is about being able to capture events the way they happen, which is going to mean poor lighting sometimes. That's life as a photojournalist. 

You've still failed to answer my questions though. We can't help you until we know more about your knowledge and what you have to work with.


----------



## radiorickm (Nov 28, 2011)

Photo Guy..... thanks for the comments. If you have an obligation to the department, then I totally agree about the pictures of the fire.

My thinking, for a person on the outside (as it were) is that the people involved would be of more intrest. I am not saying don't get pictures of the fire, but get pictures of the people also. Give the firefighters a few prints, and you'll probably win a few favors (like a little more access). I guess it's up to the OP what they are interested in shooting.


----------



## photo guy (Nov 29, 2011)

Destin, My dept is a city dept with hydrants.  Only have 2 investigators who are on shifts like most of the dept except for the fire inspector.  The shift chiefs were the ones origianlly telling me some photos were too dark and I explained why.  Then the Chief got involved by askeing why some photos were too dark. Again I explained why and what could be done about it.  That was in years 1-2 of my 3 years.  Now they turn on the lights on the trucks prior to my arrival so I have the lighting needed.  Since then my photos have dramatically improved on night scenes and they are happier.  I have know the chief and one of the shift chiefs my whole life and most of the dept members for 12+ years.  It takes a lot of team work.  Now I am being called on my days off of work to come do photos of events.  I consider myself a photographer and not a photojournalist.


----------



## Destin (Nov 29, 2011)

photo guy said:
			
		

> Destin, My dept is a city dept with hydrants.  Only have 2 investigators who are on shifts like most of the dept except for the fire inspector.  The shift chiefs were the ones origianlly telling me some photos were too dark and I explained why.  Then the Chief got involved by askeing why some photos were too dark. Again I explained why and what could be done about it.  That was in years 1-2 of my 3 years.  Now they turn on the lights on the trucks prior to my arrival so I have the lighting needed.  Since then my photos have dramatically improved on night scenes and they are happier.  I have know the chief and one of the shift chiefs my whole life and most of the dept members for 12+ years.  It takes a lot of team work.  Now I am being called on my days off of work to come do photos of events.  I consider myself a photographer and not a photojournalist.



So you're saying that before they complained about your photos being dark, they weren't turning on the scene lights on the trucks for night time calls? I have a hard time believing that. The first thing we do in my dept is pull up, get the scene lit up (our safety is the #1 priority, dark fire scenes aren't safe), and then get to work.


----------



## photo guy (Nov 29, 2011)

Half the time the lights weren't even on until 10 minutes after I arrive on scene.  They wanted to get the hoses pulled and hit the fire and not think about lighting the scene for safety first.  Now, they are in the habit of turning the lights on as soon as they pull up if it is a working fire.


----------



## Destin (Nov 29, 2011)

photo guy said:
			
		

> Half the time the lights weren't even on until 10 minutes after I arrive on scene.  They wanted to get the hoses pulled and hit the fire and not think about lighting the scene for safety first.  Now, they are in the habit of turning the lights on as soon as they pull up if it is a working fire.



Lol. Unless the trucks are ancient, the lights are controlled by the driver. They should be on as the hydrant gets hit by the lead attack engine...


----------



## photo guy (Nov 29, 2011)

The lights are controlled by the driver, however, they never use to have them on unless it was a larger fire or in a really dark area.  Now they are on at all the night calls with working fires.  They hardly hit a hydrant unless they have a really large working fire.  The last 2 structure fires were stopped without even using the 2nd engine or even hooking to a hydrant.  One was an attic fire and the other was an apartment fire in a 2-story multi-unit complex.  To me that shows good firefighting.  Each area is different on how they do things.  Things in your area sure don't happen like they do in my area.  Main thing is in all of the recent fires in my city, no injuries or deaths.  The apartment fire was contained to a small area of the apartment for fire and water damage with the whole apartment sustaining smoke damage.  The attic fire never made it through the roof thanks to a quick attack thereby saving the house.


----------



## Destin (Nov 29, 2011)

photo guy said:


> The lights are controlled by the driver, however, they never use to have them on unless it was a larger fire or in a really dark area.  Now they are on at all the night calls with working fires.  They hardly hit a hydrant unless they have a really large working fire.  The last 2 structure fires were stopped without even using the 2nd engine or even hooking to a hydrant.  One was an attic fire and the other was an apartment fire in a 2-story multi-unit complex.  To me that shows good firefighting.  Each area is different on how they do things.  Things in your area sure don't happen like they do in my area.  Main thing is in all of the recent fires in my city, no injuries or deaths.  The apartment fire was contained to a small area of the apartment for fire and water damage with the whole apartment sustaining smoke damage.  The attic fire never made it through the roof thanks to a quick attack thereby saving the house.



What size tanks are on their attack engines? Ours all have 1,000 gallon tanks, and I'm sorry, but not hitting the hydrant is piss poor firefighting and is going to get someone hurt or killed. What happens what they get low on water, and can't get out or cool the room in time to prevent flashover? What happens if something goes wrong inside and a firefighter goes down, can't get out, and they need the line to protect themselves, but there isn't enough water left on the truck? It sounds like they have a good interior attack, but when **** hits the fan, you wanna be tapped into as much water as you possibly can. If there is a hydrant close to the scene, the first truck should hit it as it rolls up. This LITERALLY only takes 10-15 seconds, the truck stops, a guy jumps out with the hydrant bag, grabs the supply line, and wraps it around the hydrant, and then the truck rolls up to the scene. It sounds more like the fire department your working near is just lazy and doesn't wanna have to re-load a 4 or 5 inch supply line, honestly. There is no excuse for not hitting it, because it's your plan B if something goes wrong. That was just about the first thing we were taught.


----------



## photo guy (Nov 29, 2011)

I agree but with a 2 person engine, it is set up that the 2nd engine hook the hydrant as it arrives due to the fact the ambulance responds at the same time.  Of all the fire calls that I have been on as the dept. photographer I have seen a handfull of times that a hydrant was actually needed since they attacked the fire so fast with little water or the fire was almost out when they arrived.  I call it more luck than anything else.  And yes the first engine is a 1,000 gal. pumper.  A lot of the fires we get are vehicle fires, trash fires, some grass fires.  The number of structure fires is actually down this year as compared to last.  The dept.  ramped up the fire prevention instructionals this year and it seems to have worked so far.  Only time will tell.


----------



## iresq (Dec 1, 2011)

I have been following this thread with interest.  Having just retired as Chief of our Fire Department (thus the screen name), I would have been hard pressed to allow myself or any of my officers give any thought to creating a photo friendly scene.  Our priorities go by the acronym RECEO (VS); rescue, exposure, containment, extinguish, and overhaul. Ventilation and salvage being plugged in were applicable.  There is no P for photography.  LOL.  Scene safety is always a priority.

Our SOP is first engine lays from the plug.  Depending on incident, second engine actually makes hydrant connection.  In most cases this allows the first engine to pump off tank and have supply established before water runs out. The second engine actually pumps through the hydrant.  This allows for pressure increase as well as providing a 2nd tank of water should the hydrant fail. Doing it your way, this would not be possible as the 2nd engine would have to lay in, leaving a crew member behind to make the connection. Can't due too much with only a two person crew if one has to operate the pump.  Might as well get your lines down. We use the 2 in 2 out principle.  Except in cases of rescue, no one goes in until there is a hose team with charged line ready to go in case needed.  Sort of like a pre-rit team. 

Any yes, for your pump operator to not take the time to properly illuminate the scene is lazy.


----------



## photo guy (Dec 1, 2011)

Thank you for your insight


----------

