# THE THREE ELEMENTS OF A GOOD PHOTOGRAPH



## amira (Nov 23, 2008)

Id like to take the opportunity to remind you of three key
factors that can give you a leading edge in taking and selling amazing
photographs.

** 1. Subject. This is the who, what, and where of your photograph. It
should be strong and clear, leaving no doubt about what your subject
is.

One way to get better at this is to get closer, filling your frame
with nothing but your subject, leaving no room for other distractions.
(If youre using a point-and-shoot camera, be careful to stay within
your cameras focusing distance... usually no closer than about three
to five feet from your subject.)

** 2. Composition. Learning the art of composition is not terribly
difficult -- it just takes some practice. If youve done any painting,
drawing, or other kinds of art, composition might be second nature for
you. If not, consider going to a local gallery or art museum to study
how the masters do it (think Rule of Thirds). You can work the
composition of your photographs just like master painters have for
centuries.

Placement of your subject in the frame makes all the difference to the
visual impact of your photo. If you remember nothing else about
composition, remember this: keep your subject (and your horizon line)
out of the center of your image.

** 3. Lighting. Photography is nothing without light. Study the light
around you, taking mental notes of how it looks. Is it bright? Flat
and dull? Does it glow? What do the shadows look like and where do
they come from? How do the people or the places around you look in
this light? As you get more familiar with light and its qualities,
these kinds of questions get easier to answer. Doing so will help
immensely with your photography as it informs the where and when of
your shots.

Also remember these two other important points about light: 1. The
pop-up flash on your camera is good for candid shots at a party... but
thats about it. Open up your camera manual and find out how to turn
off your flash (remember how to turn it on again for that party), 2.
The best light of the day is early morning or late afternoon. Unless
you have plenty of cloud cover, avoid shooting in bright noonday sun.


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## jwsciontc (Nov 23, 2008)

filling the entire frame with jsut the subject? no thanks


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## tirediron (Nov 23, 2008)

amira said:


> One way to get better at this is to get closer, filling your frame with nothing but your subject, leaving no room for other distractions.


 
Sorry, but for most photography, i'm going to categorize this under 'bad advice'!  You're right, the subject should be clear and prominent,  and the image should be distraction free, but elements aside from the composition are often key to composition.  Case in point:







Were the image nothing but the chair, I submit that it would be rather less interesting.  Certainly there are times that filling the frame does work,but not as a rule.




amira said:


> Learning the art of composition is not terribly
> difficult


 
Sorry, have to disagree here as well; learning the basic _Theory_ of composition is not terribly difficult, the rule of thirds, the golden mean, etc, but the _art_ of composition is something else entirely and is not so much learned as understood through practice.


-- it just takes some practice. If youve done any painting,
drawing, or other kinds of art, composition might be second nature for
you. If not, consider going to a local gallery or art museum to study
how the masters do it (think Rule of Thirds). You can work the
composition of your photographs just like master painters have for
centuries.



amira said:


> Placement of your subject in the frame makes all the difference to the visual impact of your photo. If you remember nothing else about composition, remember this: keep your subject (and your horizon line) out of the center of your image.
> 
> 
> ** 3. Lighting. Photography is nothing without light. Study the light
> ...


 
Generally speaking, this I agree with.


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## stsinner (Nov 23, 2008)

Talk about coming out with guns blazing...Only the 7th post and already preaching...  Yikes!!!


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## Dionysus (Nov 23, 2008)

ya, definitely dont agree w/ the subject thing...and mastering composition is as hard as defining yourself and your style.  It's not as easy as learning the theory, which is easy on paper...its a lot of "felt" cues, and instinct that only comes w/ experience and time.


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## table1349 (Nov 23, 2008)

stsinner said:


> Talk about coming out with guns blazing...Only the 7th post and already preaching...  Yikes!!!



Well you know, that the trouble with youth these days, they are so very temerarious.


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## LaFoto (Nov 24, 2008)

> temerarious


 
Wow. Had to go look that one up!
That was a new one for me!

(Oh, erm ... I couldn't even be bothered to read all the "good advice" of the OP ... all I did was groan inwardly and ask myself who ever on the forums had asked for this piece of advice to begin with?)


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## goodoneian (Nov 24, 2008)

amira said:


> ** 1. Subject. This is the who, what, and where of your photograph. It
> should be strong and clear, leaving no doubt about what your subject
> is.
> 
> ...








so according to you this is a well composed picture?


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## LaFoto (Nov 24, 2008)

Heehee. You're funny, goodoneian!


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## Battou (Nov 24, 2008)

amira said:


> Id like to take the opportunity to remind you of three key
> factors that can give you a leading edge in taking and selling amazing
> photographs.
> 
> ...



Get closer to that, here is a suggestion, perhaps maybe learning how to use the Background distractions to guide the viewer to the subject.



amira said:


> Placement of your subject in the frame makes all the difference to the
> visual impact of your photo. If you remember nothing else about
> composition, remember this: keep your subject (and your horizon line)
> out of the center of your image.



Our of the center what....Gee, I guess these are instant failures, and this one too



amira said:


> Also remember these two other important points about light: 1. The
> pop-up flash on your camera is good for candid shots at a party... but
> thats about it.



This Photo taken by TPF user Efergoh used a pop up flash....shame on him




amira said:


> 2.The best light of the day is early morning or late afternoon. Unless
> you have plenty of cloud cover, avoid shooting in bright noonday sun.



A handful of shots from under the mid day sun...these are no good 
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133077
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138995
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126226
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136824


Wow...I am such a failure, I should just put my camera down.


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## Overread (Nov 24, 2008)

*is unsure how to comment to this thread*
On the one side debate about composition, improving photography and different methods used is something worthwhile and something that (I don't think) we talk about enough - at least not in depth in threads of their own - though we do get quite a bit of talk round photos posted on the site.

On the other side preaching has started this off to a bad start - and now people are getting defencive. The post is rather out and bang in its style and does not promote discussion of the elements presented, but I think that or more individual tips/advice was intended.
The overall problem is that whilst generalisations can be made, once you start putting it into practise some people change their tune*, whilst others point out that difference styles and subjects warrent different compositional elements to best show them.
come on people we can still turn this thread around!
*ps for better work with the popup flash I have found that toiletpaper or tissue paper (white of course) when held in front of the flash can diffuse the light and helps to lessen the harsh impact of the popup - worked well for my macro before I moved up to bigger flashers. (err flashes)


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## Battou (Nov 24, 2008)

Overread said:


> come on people we can still turn this thread around!



Sadly I do not believe this is going to be possible, atleast not wile the thread title is in caps lock and you know what they say about caps lock


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## ksmattfish (Nov 24, 2008)

The OP seems like good advice to me.  You nay-sayers are just pissed because they didn't dwell on the glory of film or 4-figure DSLRs/lenses.  

What's the smiley for a razzzzzzzzzzzzzberry?


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## LaFoto (Nov 24, 2008)

I was having similar thoughts about this very thread that Overread is expressing, i.e. that in general it is NOT bad to know something about those "conventions" (making use of a word I am borrowing off Hertz's) we have all come to accept (with some only subconsciously, though) as those that make images more pleasing to look at than others. 

Too many jump into the frame without any previous knowledge of these "conventions", and not even having made themselves aware of the fact that the "conventions" are there and our way of viewing things has been "trained" on them by our socialisation. They just say "what I like is what counts", thus closing their mind to any kind of learning, while I feel that awareness of these "conventions" (some also call them "rules" like in "Rules of Thirds" or so) is the necessary foundation to any sort of creating images. Be it canvasses in oil, watercolours, or also photos. And only when you firmly stand on that foundation can you say, hey, let's "jump", in other words: let me creatively play with these conventions, let me be against them, let me try something outside our normal viewing conventions.

So in that respect I feel that yes, it is not wrong to know about these things.

However ... to be lectured by a newbie to the forums on all this, without having ever asked her to do so, and to be "invited" to the thread with the help of a title in capital letters only (which does "sound" quite a bit like "shouting" to many!) is a tad off-putting... The reaction by the other members was to be expected...


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## Jeff Canes (Nov 24, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> Wow. Had to go look that one up!
> That was a new one for me!---


me too


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## gsgary (Nov 24, 2008)

The pop up flash is also good for fill when shooting outside


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## jwsciontc (Nov 24, 2008)

thread fail


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## Village Idiot (Nov 24, 2008)

jwsciontc said:


> thread fail


 
You have better advice?


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## gsgary (Nov 24, 2008)

Battou said:


> Get closer to that, here is a suggestion, perhaps maybe learning how to use the Background distractions to guide the viewer to the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yep no good did you use a popup flash :lmao::lmao:


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## DRoberts (Nov 24, 2008)

Amira does have some nice photos in her gallery. Not that the advice given was bad, just maybe not worded in the best way. 
Point #1. Yes there are times when full frame is great, and I believe that is what she ment, rather than all shots need to be that way.
Point #2. I think she clearly stated that this would take practice and study to achieve. Just the one sentence seems to have attracted the attention of most readers.
Point #3. If you are disagreeing with this you have obviously taken this personal...This is Lighting 101. Yes early and late light is the best natural light for photography.  
While yes it is possible to occasionaly get a good shot with the "pop up" flash, have we all not at one time or another told someone that it is the reason for the "failure" of a photo?

As I said, overall this advice is not "bad" advice, but just not necessarily worded perfect. And I think the fact that so many people got upset is because the OP only has 7 post rather than 1000+.


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## LaFoto (Nov 24, 2008)

DRoberts said:


> And I think the fact that so many people got upset is because the OP only has 7 post rather than 1000+.


 
Well, I don't think that is the reason.
But no one had asked for this lecture, true as it might be with regards to many things. And to be "invited" to be "lectured" in capitals is not the right way, either. 

And you can see that all in all I am not against acknowledging the "conventions" that lead to a pleasing photo. I said so earlier. 

It is not about WHAT she said. It is not about WHEN (with regards to the length of her membership) she said it. It's all about HOW she said it.


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## ANDS! (Nov 24, 2008)

> so according to you this is a well composed picture?



If the intent was to exagerrate the fellow using your wideangle or fish eye - then yea.



> This Photo taken by TPF user Efergoh used a pop up flash....shame on him



Which is done in the exact same situation as the OP mentioned - indoors, intimate setting.  You haven't disproved the comment with that photo.



> A handful of shots from under the mid day sun...these are no good



Were any of those shots in DIRECT SUNLIGHT?  The underpass shot is, an underpass, so we know its not.  We do know however that you have harsh blown highlights on the wall that ISNT covered by the underpass.

Seriously, some of you are cranky and taking the OP personally for no other reason than to have something to reply to.



> But no one had asked for this lecture



Awesome.  We have to ask permission to post now!  If you don't want to "hear" it - don't click on the link.


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## Overread (Nov 24, 2008)

I belive Lafoto was not stating that permission was needed for threads, but that threads need context to function. The first post in this thread would work well as an answer to a new photographer asking for advice, however without that context it appears to just be preaching with no real direction. Opening the comments to the site and asking for additional advice, inputs, opinions etc would have helped and given meaningful structure to the rest of the thread instead of things turning into a witchhunt/rant


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## dEARlEADER (Nov 24, 2008)

If there was a fourth, fifth, and sixth element to making an effective image what would they be?


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## jwsciontc (Nov 24, 2008)

Village Idiot said:


> You have better advice?



i didnt claim too. but some of his advice is wrong and i was just saying i disagreed, along with other numerous people that gave their $.02.  so youre quoting and singling me out why?


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## ANDS! (Nov 24, 2008)

jwsciontc said:


> i didnt claim too. but some of his advice is wrong and i was just saying i disagreed, along with other numerous people that gave their $.02. so youre quoting and singling me out why?


 
What in her advice is wrong?


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## Alex_B (Nov 24, 2008)

While I agree with some of the statements in the beginning, I totally disagree with others.

E.g:



> If you remember nothing else about
> composition, remember this: keep your subject (and your horizon line)
> out of the center of your image.


True for some images, totally wrong for other images. In particular images with strong lines, be it abstract, architecture, or sometimes even nature, sometimes need symmetry, need the subject to be dead centre.

And the "rule" of thirds (falsely called "rule"), helps some images to gain tension, but throws other images totally out of balance.

It is true that pointing out these concepts to beginners will help them broaden their possibilities as in how to compose an image, but they do not work as general recipes.


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## jwsciontc (Nov 24, 2008)

^^just one other person that noticed some flaws


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## Battou (Nov 24, 2008)

gsgary said:


> Yep no good did you use a popup flash :lmao::lmao:



I don't have a pop up flash



ANDS! said:


> Which is done in the exact same situation as the OP mentioned - indoors, intimate setting.  You haven't disproved the comment with that photo.


  I don't use a camera with a popup flash and that was the only one I knew with out a doubt had been shot with the pop up flash, wile yes it is a candid shot, it is near to or at par with his studio shots in his PL gallery proving they are far from pointless. If you want to consider the fact it was a candid shot as a negating point, very well then.





ANDS! said:


> Were any of those shots in DIRECT SUNLIGHT?  The underpass shot is, an underpass, so we know its not.  We do know however that you have harsh blown highlights on the wall that ISNT covered by the underpass.



Old Times was HDR emulated and tone mapped with reduced contrast and luminisity prior to convertion.

Around the Bend is undenyable

Cedar Waxwing a 400mm 5.6 at f/11, in hand, it's near necessary

So The Underpass was a poor judgment on my part, take my head off.



ANDS! said:


> Seriously, some of you are cranky and taking the OP personally for no other reason than to have something to reply to.
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome.  We have to ask permission to post now!  If you don't want to "hear" it - don't click on the link.



If you don't want ignorant arrogent replies like the ones found in this thread, don't walk into a forum with the notion of knowing more than the people already in there and start shouting your advice as if you're this forums proctor. It dosen't work that way especially when it's fresh out of photoschool cookie cutter information. We're not saying it's wrong, we're saying amira's inexperience shows through like a red ball in a blue room. I'm sorry if you don't believe in smacking the child to show the error of their ways, but amira has gotten smacked here, and she will think twice before waltzing into an internet community with all the answers like she has here.


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## LaFoto (Nov 24, 2008)

Shhhh, Battou. She might sound like a teenager, but she's, in fact, 36 and a working artist... but it still feels like she "walked into a room with the notion of knowing more than the people already in there and start shouting your advice as if you're this forums proctor". That's how the thread feels, hence many people's reaction. It's nothing to do with people being "cranky" and simply wanting "something to reply to"... ts!


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## Battou (Nov 24, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> Shhhh, Battou. She might sound like a teenager, but she's, in fact, 36 and a working artist... but it still feels like she "walked into a room with the notion of knowing more than the people already in there and start shouting your advice as if you're this forums proctor". That's how the thread feels, hence many people's reaction. It's nothing to do with people being "cranky" and simply wanting "something to reply to"... ts!



Age is merely a number


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## Vtec44 (Nov 25, 2008)

This thread cracks me up. I'm a beginner, but I use my built-in flash to help reduce dark shadows when shooting out door. I also use flash indoor, but always try to stand a bit further and zoom in when I do this. It helps to reduce blown highlights.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 25, 2008)

jwsciontc said:


> i didnt claim too. but some of his advice is wrong and i was just saying i disagreed, along with other numerous people that gave their $.02. so youre quoting and singling me out why?


 
"Thread fail" was about as pointless as it gets.


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## skieur (Nov 25, 2008)

Geez!  Cut the newbie some slack! 

She was trying to helpful to beginners who need some of the simple basics.  The characterizations and less than knowledgeable responses are way over the top. :thumbdown:

skieur


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## Dao (Nov 25, 2008)

I think we should just give amira a break and close this thread.

Really, points had been made in the beginning and really no need to continue.

To OP, hoping that this thread will not scare you away.


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## jwsciontc (Nov 25, 2008)

alright w.e i'm done with this thread


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## jwsciontc (Nov 25, 2008)

even when other people said we can turn it around cause so many people noticed false advice, and others said that was impossible. i say 2 words and i take all the blame, sick


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## Village Idiot (Nov 25, 2008)

jwsciontc said:


> even when other people said we can turn it around cause so many people noticed false advice, and others said that was impossible. i say 2 words and i take all the blame, sick


 
That's because you only have 20*7* posts.


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## dEARlEADER (Nov 25, 2008)

jwsciontc said:


> even when other people said we can turn it around cause so many people noticed false advice, and others said that was impossible. i say 2 words and i take all the blame, sick




stop pouting... it's an internet forum... not the end of the world... Village Idiot will help you in the end....


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## jwsciontc (Nov 25, 2008)

im not pouting, just wondering why I am the only one getting criticized for not agreeing with the OP


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## Dionysus (Nov 25, 2008)

are we still on this, and upset about it still? really?


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## Ptyler22 (Nov 25, 2008)

Where's the OP's opinion on this, looks like they got scared off the site already.


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## Overread (Nov 25, 2008)

according to their profile the OP has not been back since the thread was posted - so unless surfing without logging in they have no idea of the contents of the thread thus far (And it might take a long while to read through


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## Vtec44 (Nov 25, 2008)

The link to her "Freelance Photography site" looks like spam.


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## Chris of Arabia (Nov 25, 2008)

Vtec44 said:


> The link to her "Freelance Photography site" looks like spam.



Yup! That part of the sig definitely needs to leave these parts.


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## dEARlEADER (Nov 25, 2008)

Overread said:


> according to their profile the OP has not been back since the thread was posted - so unless surfing without logging in they have no idea of the contents of the thread thus far (And it might take a long while to read through




ya i know.... I haven't logged back into that user account since I created the thread...

the pot needed stirring what can I say.....


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## skieur (Nov 25, 2008)

Vtec44 said:


> The link to her "Freelance Photography site" looks like spam.


 
I think that the link has been messed up, because elsewhere on the web, it does connect up with a photography site. At the same time, my impression from tracking her down on the web is that she is the type of artist who thinks and imagines totally "outside the box" and has interests in all kinds of areas.

skieur


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## ANDS! (Nov 25, 2008)

> I don't use a camera with a popup flash and that was the only one I knew with out a doubt had been shot with the pop up flash, wile yes it is a candid shot, it is near to or at par with his studio shots in his PL gallery proving they are far from pointless. If you want to consider the fact it was a candid shot as a negating point, very well then.





> 1. The
> pop-up flash on your camera is good for candid shots at a party... but
> that&#8217;s about it.



This is what the OP said.  The popup flash doesn't negate your comment.  It does render YOUR criticism of the OP moot though when you post a picture in the EXACT SAME lighting scenario as one would find at a "candid party".



> If you don't want ignorant arrogent replies like the ones found in this thread, don't walk into a forum with the notion of knowing more than the people already in there and start shouting your advice as if you're this forums proctor.



You are SERIOUSLY projecting here.



> It dosen't work that way especially when it's fresh out of photoschool cookie cutter information.



You realize this is a BEGINNERS forum don't you.



> I'm sorry if you don't believe in smacking the child to show the error of their ways, but amira has gotten smacked here, and she will think twice before waltzing into an internet community with all the answers like she has here.



Wow.  Really no comment needed on such a hostile and stupid statement.  



> That's how the thread feels, hence many people's reaction.



You are - presumably - an ADULT.  Surely you have the capability of controlling yourself and not being baited by invisible hooks.  The fact that some of you can't even see how nonsense your reactions and responses are, is laughable. 

Seriously, people wonder why this place has the "reputation" it does.  You get the community you build folks.  As always folks are slow to help, but quick to tear down, and damn near fall over themselves in trying to "school" posters.


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## DRoberts (Nov 25, 2008)

How about we all end this thread now. It shouldn't have to be locked to stop the childlike responses that continue. How bout we all show we are adults and let this die. I challenge for no more post on this thread after this. We'll see who's who then.


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## Jedo_03 (Nov 26, 2008)

Ummm... Well Amira's advice was posted in the BEGINNER'S FORUM - so I take it that her advice was directed at BEGINNER'S rather than towards all you er... advanced experts...
Re-reading the orig post, what she wrote looks like the kind of elementary material you'd find in "My First Photo-Taking Book" or "A Pre-Schooler's Introduction to Nuclear Physics" - clearly for the junior novice...
Anyone ever conducted a Community Photography Class..??
It's really quite amusing to see people fronting-up with 40D's and an array of expensive glass and asking the daftest questions...
In essence - I think the advice she gave was essentially "okay" = rudimentary but "okay"... "Good advice for beginners..." I've seen many a post on this board (and others) advising *against* the use of onboard flash... *advocating* the use of the 'rule' of thirds... and there are a good many 'professionals' who write books who* urge* the reader to "fill the frame" with the subject...
Put the shoe on the other foot...
Who here has mastered the technique of correcting colour-casts and/or noise in PhotoShop L*a*b..?
We all have something to learn - and we all have to start at the beginning...
Just my thoughts....
Jedo


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## abraxas (Nov 26, 2008)

What on Earth is wrong with some of you people?

Amira does some good work.  Can't just take it at that can you?


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## Village Idiot (Nov 26, 2008)

I did have some one who graduated with a photography/arts major comment on my tight shooting.

I did tell her I cropped when I needed to.


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