# Money, Money, Money, MONEYYY



## Heather Koch

Okay, so the big question.... What to charge?

I've gotten down my hourly editing rate and my print rates, but what about digital file rates?

A couple days ago I was asked to take some pictures of a family for their Christmas card.  I slightly edited all the photos and uploaded them on dropbox for the family to choose the one they wanted edited completely for their Christmas card.... What should I charge them for my time taking the pictures and then for the digital files?


NEXT question... much larger

I've been asked to photograph a friends wedding in April.  I have no idea where to even begin with rates for weddings...  I know they are very involved.  Any help on this matter will be greatly appreciated! 

Thanks everyone and hope you all are having a blessed holiday!


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## Scatterbrained




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## Parker219

What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?


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## Heather Koch

Parker219 said:


> What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?


Nothing fancy, I have Nikon d7100 and sigma 17-70mm lens I'll be using with a TTL flash.


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## Heather Koch

My cousin had previously asked me to do her wedding but I declined because I wasn't ready.  Since then I've taken several classes and my work has immensely grown.  My cousin paid $1800 for a package including full 8 hour wedding shooting, from getting ready before the wedding, the ceremony, one location between ceremony and reception and reception.  The lady just gave her a CD with all the pictures on it, all but 10 were unedited.  And they were not happy with the photographer nor the photos... nor was I impressed either.

Just to get an idea of what other local photographers charge ^


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## Parker219

Can you post examples of your portraits? Or a link to your website? 

Where I live, what you should charge has a lot to do with the quality of your work.


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing fancy, I have Nikon d7100 and sigma 17-70mm lens I'll be using with a TTL flash.
Click to expand...

What is the couple's expectations?


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## Heather Koch

Parker219 said:


> Can you post examples of your portraits? Or a link to your website?
> 
> Where I live, what you should charge has a lot to do with the quality of your work.



Sure   You can check out my facebook page link in my signature or the flickr link.  I just posted a few photos in the peoples photography thread as well.


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing fancy, I have Nikon d7100 and sigma 17-70mm lens I'll be using with a TTL flash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the couple's expectations?
Click to expand...

She said they want photos of the ceremony; walking down the isle, first kiss, etc., group shots, and a few at the reception; cutting the cake, first dance, etc.


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## Emanuel M

You need better equipment.
An FF body to deal with low light scenarios - Nikon D750, Nikon D610, Nikon D800/810 for example.
You need better lenses - a 24-70mm 2.8 + the 70-200mm 2.8 are imperative I guess (maybe the 70-200 f4 can also work). I would put something like a 85mm 1.4.
External flash if needed - lots and lots of SD cards - at least 3 16Gb (You never know when you will need more space).
Lots and lots of batteries fully charged (You dont have the time to recharge batteries at a wedding).
Also, a backup body (usually another FF camera - most wedding photographers have 2 of each camera). 
My wedding photographers had 2 Canon 5D MKIII and 2 Canon 7D MKII (but they were 5 - 2 photographers, one man for video, an assistant and a drone pilot)...
The assistant also had a Nikon D5300 with a 35mm 1.8 (he was training).
You can try to rent these of course...
Let your friends know that you are not a professional, and that something can go wrong (or no so well).
Don't charge them 1800$ for god's sake 

If you are going to use the D7100 and the sigma, you will need to use the flash on some occasions and you will probably need a tele - 70-300 VR from Nikon would not be so bad - but the best option is without a doubt one 70-200 2.8.

Cheers


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## KmH

It is a standard business practice to be paid before making photos and doing any editing.
Proofs are usually included in the price for making the photos and doing basic edits.
At the in person proof review session the photographer then gauges client reaction to the proofs so the photographer can then decide which products, and at what size, to try and sell.

How much you charge is dependent on your cost-of-doing-business (CODB) and on your cost-of-goods-sold (COGS).
Other photographer's COBD and COGS will likely be more or less than your's, so their prices probably would not work for your business.
There are several retail photography pricing models out there - a la cart, by the pose, packages, 1 charge for everything, yada, yada, yada.

My clients did not qualify for buying digital files until they had met or exceeded my minimum purchase requirement which was $600.
At $600 I basically broke even (no profit) on any retail shoot.
My minimum purchase requirement was a dollar amount.
My sitting fee applied towards the minimum purchase and a client then had to buy a few prints or some of the other products I offered.
A disc of 20 digital files , the minimum, was then $1200 ($60 per image file).


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing fancy, I have Nikon d7100 and sigma 17-70mm lens I'll be using with a TTL flash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the couple's expectations?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She said they want photos of the ceremony; walking down the isle, first kiss, etc., group shots, and a few at the reception; cutting the cake, first dance, etc.
Click to expand...

I meant more in terms of quality.  Are they just looking for a casual record of the event, or a professional-level product but want it at a bargain price?  There's a LOT more to shooting a wedding than just shooting the wedding, and of course there's the whole 'no do-overs' thing!


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## Heather Koch

Emanuel M said:


> You need better equipment.
> An FF body to deal with low light scenarios - Nikon D750, Nikon D610, Nikon D800/810 for example.
> You need better lenses - a 24-70mm 2.8 + the 70-200mm 2.8 are imperative I guess (maybe the 70-200 f4 can also work). I would put something like a 85mm 1.4.
> External flash if needed - lots and lots of SD cards - at least 3 16Gb (You never know when you will need more space).
> Lots and lots of batteries fully charged (You dont have the time to recharge batteries at a wedding).
> Also, a backup body (usually another FF camera - most wedding photographers have 2 of each camera).
> My wedding photographers had 2 Canon 5D MKIII and 2 Canon 7D MKII (but they were 5 - 2 photographers, one man for video, an assistant and a drone pilot)...
> The assistant also had a Nikon D5300 with a 35mm 1.8 (he was training).
> You can try to rent these of course...
> Let your friends know that you are not a professional, and that something can go wrong (or no so well).
> Don't charge them 1800$ for god's sake
> 
> If you are going to use the D7100 and the sigma, you will need to use the flash on some occasions and you will probably need a tele - 70-300 VR from Nikon would not be so bad - but the best option is without a doubt one 70-200 2.8.
> 
> Cheers



Thank you! I appreciate your honesty.  They definitely know my work and asked me because I would charge less (obviously).  I can't afford to hire an assistant so my mother will be helping me...she has an art degree so she knows her way around creative situations.  I could probably rent another lens for that day, probably the 70-200mm.  And of course a bunch of batteries and sd cards are a must, I have those already.  I do have a flash.  
Now as a wedding photographer, I imagine its a very face paced event?


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## Heather Koch

KmH said:


> It is a standard business practice to be paid before making photos and doing any editing.
> Proofs are usually included in the price for making the photos and doing basic edits.
> At the in person proof review session the photographer then gauges client reaction to the proofs so the photographer can then decide which products, and at what size, to try and sell.
> 
> How much you charge is dependent on your cost-of-doing-business (CODB) and on your cost-of-goods-sold (COGS).
> Other photographer's COBD and COGS will likely be more or less than your's, so their prices probably would not work for your business.
> There are several retail photography pricing models out there - a la cart, by the pose, packages, 1 charge for everything, yada, yada, yada.
> 
> My clients did not qualify for buying digital files until they had met or exceeded my minimum purchase requirement which was $600.
> At $600 I basically broke even (no profit) on any retail shoot.
> My minimum purchase requirement was a dollar amount.
> My sitting fee applied towards the minimum purchase and a client then had to buy a few prints or some of the other products I offered.
> A disc of 20 digital files , the minimum, was then $1200 ($60 per image file).


Wow, dang.  Yeah I guess it would just all depend on my business.  

Okay, so I charge 20$ and hour for editing... which isn't a lot but I'm just starting out and figuring out people are willing to pay.  For example, I just had a client which I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).
So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What equipment to do plan on using to shoot this wedding?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing fancy, I have Nikon d7100 and sigma 17-70mm lens I'll be using with a TTL flash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the couple's expectations?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She said they want photos of the ceremony; walking down the isle, first kiss, etc., group shots, and a few at the reception; cutting the cake, first dance, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I meant more in terms of quality.  Are they just looking for a casual record of the event, or a professional-level product but want it at a bargain price?  There's a LOT more to shooting a wedding than just shooting the wedding, and of course there's the whole 'no do-overs' thing!
Click to expand...

Quality was not discussed yet.  We will have a meeting in person to get exact expectations. I'm assuming since they are asking me they don't "need" highly professional stuff.


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?


How much are you charging for your prints?????


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
Click to expand...

From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> Quality was not discussed yet.  We will have a meeting in person to get exact expectations. I'm assuming since they are asking me they don't "need" highly professional stuff.


*Alarm bells*  What they need and what they want are two different things.  Very often couples feel that photography is a way to save money, and rather than pay the $3-5000+ for an established pro, they assume that "it's just pressing a button" and a Craig's List cheapie or friend can do the same job.  They may tell you that they're "fine with whatever you do", but the reality is, they likely expect top-quality work regardless of what they say.  IMO, this has 'disaster' written all over it.


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
Click to expand...

You really need to revisit that!


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really need to revisit that!
Click to expand...

Explain?


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## Emanuel M

Heather Koch said:


> Now as a wedding photographer, I imagine its a very face paced event?


Im not sure I understand 
Did you mean very fast paced event?
If so, yes I guess.
It really depends on the wedding...
Depends on the moments.

1 - photos at home (bride and groom) with close friends and family
2 - photos at arriving to the place where the cerimony will be done (church, garden, etc.)
3 - photos of the key moments at the ceremony - ring change, the kiss, some lectures (I'm not familiar with the traditional american wedding).
4 - photos of the moment when the grooms leave the church/place - the rice and flower toss and so on 
5 - photos of the car/motorbike/carriage/whatever they use to go from the church to the place when the party will be 
6 - photos of the grooms entering the place where the party will be
7 - photos of the guests, artists, catering, animation crew, etc.
8 - photos of the buffet and people enjoying it 
8.1 - photos of the tables and it's contents - like the drinks and appetizers, grilled meats, etc.
9 - key moments like the entry to the dinning room, first plate, first dance, cutting the wedding cake, the bride's branch beeing tossed, and so on.
10 - the fireworks, the balloons, the illumination...
11 - between points number 7 to 10 - photos of the couple in the most beautiful places of the place (it really depends on the place)

I think it's something like this.
Have in mind that I'm no wedding photographer (not yet at least - I'm not prepared), but as an enthusiast, I always see what the photographing crew is doing at weddings, and I usually speak to them to exchange ideas 
Also have in mind that I don't know how the wedding are at the United States - In Portugal they are very elaborate and there is always so many moments to cover.

Try to know what kind of wedding your friends want and do a list of the things you have to cover 
Try to act naturally and be relaxed - no one likes a stressed photographer.
Try to get people on their natural poses - don't force too much.
At some point, get the tele lens and act as a ninja photographer and get those natural poses that are always the best.
Don't forget to eat and drink and have fun - You will be among friends. That is always a good thing.

Cheers and good luck


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really need to revisit that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Explain?
Click to expand...

A $20 16x20?????  That's an almost $200 item on my price list, and if a 4x5 (20 in2 is $5) than 16x20 (320 in2) should be at LEAST $80!


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## Heather Koch

Thank you! Much appreciated ^^^

Not that this should matter, but the friends are 19 years of age right now, will be 20 at time of wedding.  And I will for sure be as prepared as I can going into it and of course, I enjoy the natural photos!  Thanks again Emanuel!


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
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> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really need to revisit that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Explain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A $20 16x20?????  That's an almost $200 item on my price list, and if a 4x5 (20 in2 is $5) than 16x20 (320 in2) should be at LEAST $80!
Click to expand...

As stated above I am slowly working my way up.  Right out of the start I can't justify charging hundreds of dollars, as I am still learning.  I am by no means a full studio professional, but I am more than an amateur.


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## Emanuel M

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> .. I charged $192 (they gave $200) which included 5 hours of editing, 30 minute session time and about 15 prints (plus 32 wallets).  So, maybe charge these clients (xmas photos) $20 an hour for session and editing time, plus $50 for the digital files?
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You really need to revisit that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Explain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A $20 16x20?????  That's an almost $200 item on my price list, and if a 4x5 (20 in2 is $5) than 16x20 (320 in2) should be at LEAST $80!
Click to expand...

Jesus, I charge 4$ for each 4x6 and 20$ for a 8.3 x 11.7 (A4 format).
Each 4x6 print costs me around 1.3/1.5$ and a 8.3 x 11.7 it's about 3.5 to 4$...
I sell packages like 10 4x6 at 40$ +  the service (25$) and 2$ for each digital file in full res.
I might consider bumping up the prices. It's just I'm at the very begining and I really don't know if I can charge too much...
Usually I profit around 100$ for session (with no limit of time) - I know, I can't live with this 
But I do this as a hobby that sometimes gives me some extra cash.

Cheers


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## Designer

Heather Koch said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much are you charging for your prints?????
> 
> 
> 
> From $5 4x6 to $20 16x20
Click to expand...

This is ridiculously low.  It is less than you will have to pay!  You're losing money on this deal, so how can you do that?  

(you make it up on volume!)  

1. Tomorrow, write a business plan.
2. Run it past someone who understands business.
3. Call a lawyer to make an appointment to set up a business.
4. Call a tax attorney or your state Department of revenue to get a tax ID.
5. Do an informal survey of local photography businesses to survey their prices.
6. Put pencil to paper to figure your CODB.
7. Call your mother.


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## Heather Koch

This is a "hobby" of mine as well.  Which I hope to bring in more money in the future.  I profit about the same $100 to $150 each session. $2 each digital file sounds appealing I may steal that!


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## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> ...Right out of the start I can't justify charging hundreds of dollars, as I am still learning.  I am by no means a full studio professional, but I am more than an amateur.





Heather Koch said:


> This is a "hobby" of mine as well.  Which I hope to bring in more money in the future.  I profit about the same $100 to $150 each session. $2 each digital file sounds appealing I may steal that!


I really doubt if you're profiting at all.  Are you counting ALL of your expenses when you calculate that profit?  Wear & tear on your gear, insurance, licenses, software, computer upgrades, vehicle insurance, fuel....


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## astroNikon

Heather Koch said:


> Emanuel M said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need better equipment.
> An FF body to deal with low light scenarios - Nikon D750, Nikon D610, Nikon D800/810 for example.
> You need better lenses - a 24-70mm 2.8 + the 70-200mm 2.8 are imperative I guess (maybe the 70-200 f4 can also work). I would put something like a 85mm 1.4.
> External flash if needed - lots and lots of SD cards - at least 3 16Gb (You never know when you will need more space).
> Lots and lots of batteries fully charged (You dont have the time to recharge batteries at a wedding).
> Also, a backup body (usually another FF camera - most wedding photographers have 2 of each camera).
> My wedding photographers had 2 Canon 5D MKIII and 2 Canon 7D MKII (but they were 5 - 2 photographers, one man for video, an assistant and a drone pilot)...
> The assistant also had a Nikon D5300 with a 35mm 1.8 (he was training).
> You can try to rent these of course...
> Let your friends know that you are not a professional, and that something can go wrong (or no so well).
> Don't charge them 1800$ for god's sake
> 
> If you are going to use the D7100 and the sigma, you will need to use the flash on some occasions and you will probably need a tele - 70-300 VR from Nikon would not be so bad - but the best option is without a doubt one 70-200 2.8.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I appreciate your honesty.  They definitely know my work and asked me because I would charge less (obviously).  I can't afford to hire an assistant so my mother will be helping me...she has an art degree so she knows her way around creative situations.  I could probably rent another lens for that day, probably the 70-200mm.  And of course a bunch of batteries and sd cards are a must, I have those already.  I do have a flash.
> Now as a wedding photographer, I imagine its a very face paced event?
Click to expand...

Despite all the alarm bells going off, we know you're going to do it   LOL

I forgot where-abouts you are but I recall you might be around here.
If you need a 2nd shooter I've done a couple weddings and have ample equipment. 
I mostly do it for fun .. which, sometimes weddings just aren't fun LOL
but being a 2nd, I can always have fun 

With the pricing, be aware of the difference of printing photos at a higher quality printing place that will print it at your color calibration and not theirs (ie, walmart, costsco, meijers etc). Essentially, The cost differences of moving from a hobby to a profession, and higher expectations and quality.

It seems when people first get into this they price items based on the time of the photoshoot and nothing else.  As long as you are aware of that and understand that.


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## Emanuel M

Eh eh, and 50 cents for each kilometer I do with my car


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## tirediron

Emanuel M said:


> Eh eh, and 50 cents for each kilometer I do with my car


At European fuel prices, that sounds low to me.


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## Emanuel M

Its like 60 american cents for 0.6 miles.
My car is super economical 
But I usually dont use my car - I go with the clients.


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Right out of the start I can't justify charging hundreds of dollars, as I am still learning.  I am by no means a full studio professional, but I am more than an amateur.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a "hobby" of mine as well.  Which I hope to bring in more money in the future.  I profit about the same $100 to $150 each session. $2 each digital file sounds appealing I may steal that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really doubt if you're profiting at all.  Are you counting ALL of your expenses when you calculate that profit?  Wear & tear on your gear, insurance, licenses, software, computer upgrades, vehicle insurance, fuel....
Click to expand...


Well, of course I can't make back $1800 for the software plus $2500 for the equipment right away.  All takes time and as I grow, so will my prices


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## Heather Koch

astroNikon said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emanuel M said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need better equipment.
> An FF body to deal with low light scenarios - Nikon D750, Nikon D610, Nikon D800/810 for example.
> You need better lenses - a 24-70mm 2.8 + the 70-200mm 2.8 are imperative I guess (maybe the 70-200 f4 can also work). I would put something like a 85mm 1.4.
> External flash if needed - lots and lots of SD cards - at least 3 16Gb (You never know when you will need more space).
> Lots and lots of batteries fully charged (You dont have the time to recharge batteries at a wedding).
> Also, a backup body (usually another FF camera - most wedding photographers have 2 of each camera).
> My wedding photographers had 2 Canon 5D MKIII and 2 Canon 7D MKII (but they were 5 - 2 photographers, one man for video, an assistant and a drone pilot)...
> The assistant also had a Nikon D5300 with a 35mm 1.8 (he was training).
> You can try to rent these of course...
> Let your friends know that you are not a professional, and that something can go wrong (or no so well).
> Don't charge them 1800$ for god's sake
> 
> If you are going to use the D7100 and the sigma, you will need to use the flash on some occasions and you will probably need a tele - 70-300 VR from Nikon would not be so bad - but the best option is without a doubt one 70-200 2.8.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I appreciate your honesty.  They definitely know my work and asked me because I would charge less (obviously).  I can't afford to hire an assistant so my mother will be helping me...she has an art degree so she knows her way around creative situations.  I could probably rent another lens for that day, probably the 70-200mm.  And of course a bunch of batteries and sd cards are a must, I have those already.  I do have a flash.
> Now as a wedding photographer, I imagine its a very face paced event?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Despite all the alarm bells going off, we know you're going to do it   LOL
> 
> I forgot where-abouts you are but I recall you might be around here.
> If you need a 2nd shooter I've done a couple weddings and have ample equipment.
> I mostly do it for fun .. which, sometimes weddings just aren't fun LOL
> but being a 2nd, I can always have fun
> 
> With the pricing, be aware of the difference of printing photos at a higher quality printing place that will print it at your color calibration and not theirs (ie, walmart, costsco, meijers etc). Essentially, The cost differences of moving from a hobby to a profession, and higher expectations and quality.
> 
> It seems when people first get into this they price items based on the time of the photoshoot and nothing else.  As long as you are aware of that and understand that.
Click to expand...

Lets say the client doesn't want ANY actual prints and just wants all the digital files. What would you charge per file?  

When I calculate my prices, I factor in my time at the session, editing hours and print prices, plus 50% to 85% increase on each print.

I will definitely keep you in mind when the time comes! The wedding is in April.


----------



## Parker219

After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.

Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.  
That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.

Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.


----------



## Heather Koch

Parker219 said:


> After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.
> 
> Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.
> That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.
> 
> Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.


Thank you, I appreciate that! 


As a professional photo lab, where do you guys go to purchase your prints?  I don't like mpix, shutterfly, etc.  All those I was very disappointed in.


----------



## Emanuel M

I did a Baptism and a communion for free.
I also did lots of birthdays with free full res images for the parents 
It's good when we are learning - start from the very bottom and rise gradually...
As I told you, I'm not prepared for a wedding (not yet), but if a good friend asked me to do it I would certainly do it - but I might do it for free.
Or maybe charge him a symbolic value (100$ tops) - of course he would pay the prints and albums, but I would give him all the photos at full res.
It would be part of my wedding gift to them 

Cheers


----------



## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> ...Well, of course I can't make back $1800 for the software plus $2500 for the equipment right away.  All takes time and as I grow, so will my prices


No, of course not, but from each job, a percentage needs to go to each of those things.


----------



## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Well, of course I can't make back $1800 for the software plus $2500 for the equipment right away.  All takes time and as I grow, so will my prices
> 
> 
> 
> No, of course not, but from each job, a percentage needs to go to each of those things.
Click to expand...


That is true...

So, here is what I have thus far:
-$20 an hour for my time (session/editing)
-$5 each digital file (full resolution)
-$5 to $125 for each print (paper, canvas, metal)  OR should I come up with an EXACT percentage to up the price.  So, say I pay $1 for a 4x6 and $8 for a 8x10, should I create a percentage to upcharge each print?
-Then 2% each client for equipment price?  What would you recommend to charge to make up for my equipment costs?


----------



## astroNikon

Other than managing the clients expectations ..

You need to make sure that your price is based upon your costs (say driving costs, time, etc) and the effort you put into it.

If you look at AdoramaPIX.com  ... I think that's a step up from the snapfish, shutterfly, meijer, walmart etc

Prints & Finishing Services: Pricing    I think is a more high end one
there's several others I can't think of right now.

overall pricing-wise, For instance, on the higher end of wedding photography you have this type of involvement  ==> Why I Can’t Shoot Your Wedding for Free {Part I of II}

but, of course, many newbies start out small. 
One reason I don't think I'll ever 1st shoot.  I don't have the time.
2nd shooting, is a lot easier.


----------



## Heather Koch

What about pro dpi?


----------



## Scatterbrained

Heather Koch said:


> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.
> 
> Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.
> That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.
> 
> Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate that!
> 
> 
> As a professional photo lab, where do you guys go to purchase your prints?  I don't like mpix, shutterfly, etc.  All those I was very disappointed in.
Click to expand...

ProDPI
BayPhoto

Are you editing on a calibrated monitor?   Are you ensuring that you convert the image to the correct colorspace?  Are you making sure the images colors are all within gamut before conversion?


----------



## Heather Koch

Scatterbrained said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.
> 
> Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.
> That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.
> 
> Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate that!
> 
> 
> As a professional photo lab, where do you guys go to purchase your prints?  I don't like mpix, shutterfly, etc.  All those I was very disappointed in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ProDPI
> BayPhoto
> 
> Are you editing on a calibrated monitor?   Are you ensuring that you convert the image to the correct colorspace?  Are you making sure the images colors are all within gamut before conversion?
Click to expand...

I use a macbook pro... lol


----------



## Scatterbrained

Heather Koch said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.
> 
> Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.
> That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.
> 
> Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate that!
> 
> 
> As a professional photo lab, where do you guys go to purchase your prints?  I don't like mpix, shutterfly, etc.  All those I was very disappointed in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ProDPI
> BayPhoto
> 
> Are you editing on a calibrated monitor?   Are you ensuring that you convert the image to the correct colorspace?  Are you making sure the images colors are all within gamut before conversion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I use a macbook pro... lol
Click to expand...

Which might be why you're not happy with the prints you're getting back.


----------



## Dillard

I don't mean to come across as rude, but I feel as if you are in over your head on this one.

As stated above, the clients may be wanting a lower cost photographer, and think they will get a great price by going with you, but will they truly be happy with the final product? Weddings are a "one and done". No re-do's, no second chances. 

I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting a wedding with your current gear list, even if you rented the 70-200. I would want several fast primes, along with Fx bodies. There are many people out there that shoot with less, but most of those people second shoot. 

Even more concerning than your gear list is the fact that you have never shot a wedding before. I would never lead shoot a wedding, especially without a second shooter, without numerous second shooting gigs under my belt. Weddings can be fast paced and hectic, and quite frankly, if you can't produce under stressful circumstance, you just aren't ready.


----------



## Heather Koch

Scatterbrained said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parker219 said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reviewing your flickr, based on your quality of photos and the fact that this is a friend, I would quote them $500.
> 
> Technically, you will not really make money but you can add the photos to your portfolio.
> That gives them the choice between hiring someone with your quality for what will be the lowest quote and them hiring a professional wedding photographer for much more.
> 
> Just make sure that you have a contract in writing, so everyone is on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate that!
> 
> 
> As a professional photo lab, where do you guys go to purchase your prints?  I don't like mpix, shutterfly, etc.  All those I was very disappointed in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ProDPI
> BayPhoto
> 
> Are you editing on a calibrated monitor?   Are you ensuring that you convert the image to the correct colorspace?  Are you making sure the images colors are all within gamut before conversion?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I use a macbook pro... lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which might be why you're not happy with the prints you're getting back.
Click to expand...


I am happy with my prints now, I wasn't happy with my mpix or shutterfly prints.  I bought a bunch at different spots to compare.


----------



## vintagesnaps

From what I saw on your pages I don't see professional looking photography yet - not that you can't get there someday but I see a need for a lot more practice and learning.

To me it seems like you have some good ideas but for example, the couple with the balloons - look how much ceiling is showing, those needed to be framed differently. At the outdoor party, the photos need to bring the viewers' attention to the subject without parts of other people in the picture etc. Notice your backgrounds when you're setting up and framing shots.

I see potential in your Etsy page where I could see those type photos as greeting cards, etc. if you ever wanted to try to sell at a craft show etc. The event and people photos are where you need I think better instruction than what you've gotten so far.

To learn about pricing and business aspects of photography try photographers organizations like American Society of Media Photographers or PPA. Watch for the Photo District News annual wedding issue. Photo Magazine | Professional Photography Industry News and Resources I'd look up established portrait and wedding photographers in your area - the quality of your work and pricing would need to be within range of what pros in your area are doing.


----------



## jsecordphoto

definitely biting off more than you can chew here. The people who will really lose on this deal are the bride and groom who won't get a chance to re-do their wedding. And I'm saying this to be honest, not hurtful


----------



## KmH

Since you are charging people, hopefully, you have a legally registered business there in Michigan, you're keeping good financial records, you're collecting and forwarding state sales taxes, paying use taxes, self-employment taxes, have liability insurance, etc:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/business/Guide_to_Starting_a_Small_Business_271487_7.pdf

Don't confuse gross revenue with profit.
If a client pays you $100 to $150 for a session and product, you have to deduct your business costs and cost of goods before you can determine if you made a profit, or didn't make a profit.
Whatever salary you pay yourself is a business expense. You probably don't realize it yet, but you have many other business expenses.
Most retail photography businesses, that do not have a studio, produce income at a rate of about 25% of revenue.

You mentioned $20 an hour as the rate for your time.
If you were paid $150 to do a shoot, and editing, that took 3 hours total, $60 of the $150 paid for your time.
That $150 also pays for the time you spent with the customer arranging the booking and doing the post shoot/editing customer contact. Lets call that another hour. So the first $80 pays for your time. By the time you subtract your other business expenses it's likely you lost money on the shoot.

75% of a retail photographers time is spent doing business tasks. The remaining 25% of a retail photographers time is spend doing photography for customers.
In other words, you have to charge so what your customers pay you covers 100 % of your time engaged with your business, not just for the shooting and editing time you spend on a customers session.

Print markup needs to be more in the line of 200% to 300%, at least.
Small prints get marked up a lot more than large prints get marked up.

For large prints I charged by the square  inch.

I sold 4x5 chromogenic prints with a matte finish for $40 and 8x10 chromogenic prints with a matte finish for $75.
A 16 x 20 chromogenic print with a matte finish was $160 (320 square inches x $0.50 per square inch).

If the client wanted a lustre finish on a print, a print on metallic paper, a Gicleé print (high quality inkjet print), a canvas, a print on metal or acrylic, the more costly the print.
Mounting, matting and framing was of course extra too.

Several times over the years I have made posts that show the math that demonstrates a well run full time retail photography business needs an average sale of about $400 just to break even (no profit, but business expenses are covered). That assumes the photographer is willing to live on an income that is barely above the poverty line.

The average session sales goal I shot for was $2000 per session.
I expected to shoot 3 days a week out of a 6 day work week, and since retail photography can be a seasonal business I only expected to shoot about 40 weeks per year.
The other 3 (long) days were totally devoted to doing business marketing/promotion/maintenance tasks.


----------



## beagle100

jsecordphoto said:


> definitely biting off more than you can chew here. The people who will really lose on this deal are the bride and groom who won't get a chance to re-do their wedding. And I'm saying this to be honest, not hurtful





vintagesnaps said:


> From what I saw on your pages I don't see professional looking photography yet - not that you can't get there someday but I see a need for a lot more practice and learning.





jsecordphoto said:


> definitely biting off more than you can chew here. The people who will really lose on this deal are the bride and groom who won't get a chance to re-do their wedding. And I'm saying this to be honest, not hurtful



I have to agree, your photos and experience do not indicate anything near "professional"
get some more experience before shooting weddings


----------



## imagemaker46

I read all the comments and have to say that they were very polite.  This is a hobby, anytime you bring your mother along because she is creative, not sure why that really matters when shooting, would she point out things that look nice?

You aren't equipped to work as anything more than a hobby photographer at this point, walking into  a wedding without 2 bodies and lenses is the start of a disaster, regardless of the fact they may have seen a few of your pictures and like them.  One bad shoot at this point would be enough to kill any chance you might have of becoming more than just an amateur. I don't expect you are planning on making this a full time profession?

What I have read screams of someone who loves the idea, uses the word passion when describing photography and decided to buy a camera shoot a few things, family and friends tell you that you could do this for a living, so you flipped through a few books, watched a few videos and maybe took a class or two.  Deciding  that you're good enough to "play" professional without having taken the "real" time to acquire the skills and experience.  

Rushing into anything without understanding all that goes into it, never a good idea, what's the big rush?  Enjoy the hobby, once it becomes more than this, once you decide to take money for work, you will understand the stress that goes along with it.


----------



## Heather Koch

Thank you all for you time and consideration into this thread.

I definitely understand that the more experienced folks on here probably hate seeing young people on here with dumb questions because its become a job.  And thats the last thing you want to do on your free time.  So I apologize.


----------



## imagemaker46

Heather Koch said:


> Thank you all for you time and consideration into this thread.
> 
> I definitely understand that the more experienced folks on here probably hate seeing young people on here with dumb questions because its become a job.  And thats the last thing you want to do on your free time.  So I apologize.



You have nothing to apologize for. If you don't ask questions you never get better.


----------



## Heather Koch

imagemaker46 said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all for you time and consideration into this thread.
> 
> I definitely understand that the more experienced folks on here probably hate seeing young people on here with dumb questions because its become a job.  And thats the last thing you want to do on your free time.  So I apologize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have nothing to apologize for. If you don't ask questions you never get better.
Click to expand...

and I appreciate your constructive feedback.  At this point I will probably opt out of the wedding.  I may propose doing group shots and couple shots and leave the ceremony and reception to the pros...


----------



## imagemaker46

Heather Koch said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all for you time and consideration into this thread.
> 
> I definitely understand that the more experienced folks on here probably hate seeing young people on here with dumb questions because its become a job.  And thats the last thing you want to do on your free time.  So I apologize.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have nothing to apologize for. If you don't ask questions you never get better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and I appreciate your constructive feedback.  At this point I will probably opt out of the wedding.  I may propose doing group shots and couple shots and leave the ceremony and reception to the pros...
Click to expand...


I don't shoot weddings, have only shot a few for friends. It's not that I don't believe I could shoot them, it's that people have very high expectations even if they say they don't, I also find being around annoying people counter-productive. I think stepping back and taking on some less stressful shoots would go a long way in gaining more positive experience for you.


----------



## Heather Koch

I agree completely.  I know for my wedding when I get married, I will have very high expectations and want everything to be perfect, while keeping it genuine.


----------



## gsgary

Threads like this is one of the main reasons I didn't hire a photographer at my wedding in June


----------



## imagemaker46

gsgary said:


> Threads like this is one of the main reasons I didn't hire a photographer at my wedding in June



The wedding photographer I had when I got married 33 years ago was ok, but then half the guests were professional photographers, I think he may have felt a little overwhelmed.


----------



## terri

Heather Koch said:


> and I appreciate your constructive feedback.  At this point I will probably opt out of the wedding.  I may propose doing group shots and couple shots and leave the ceremony and reception to the pros...


Thanks for being so open to all the feedback you've been given, without taking offense and turning the thread ugly.      Why not see if you could be a second shooter for whoever your friends might choose?   Offer your services for free, meet up before the event to discuss expectations...then watch and learn while you take direction from the pro at the event.   It would be invaluable experience for you, and your friends would get professional shots they deserve.


----------



## Heather Koch

terri said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I appreciate your constructive feedback.  At this point I will probably opt out of the wedding.  I may propose doing group shots and couple shots and leave the ceremony and reception to the pros...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for being so open to all the feedback you've been given, without taking offense and turning the thread ugly.      Why not see if you could be a second shooter for whoever your friends might choose?   Offer your services for free, meet up before the event to discuss expectations...then watch and learn while you take direction from the pro at the event.   It would be invaluable experience for you, and your friends would get professional shots they deserve.
Click to expand...

Of course, I'm the one who asked for it 

That is a great idea!  Once I hear back about their budget, I'll help them choose a photographer  And hopefully I can help.


----------



## tirediron

Heather Koch said:


> Of course, I'm the one who asked for it


You'd be surprised how often people forget that!  For the record, most people here are very willing to help people who genuinely want to learn (such as yourself).  Where some of us get frustrated is with the "I just got this camera as a gift; what settings should I use to shoot the wedding I booked for next Saturday?" crowd.  Helping someone who is willing to learn, understands that perhaps their preconceptions weren't totally accurate and is open to change and accepting of advice from those who have already walked the road is, IMO, very rewarding. 

BUT... before you go any further down this road, you must answer this question:  What is the difference between a large pizza and a professional photographer?















The pizza can feed a family of four!


----------



## vintagesnaps

The only thing about being a second shooter is that a photographer probably would expect an assistant to be able to get the necessary assigned shots without supervision. Seems like you'll need to learn to do that first before you're assisting (and I don't think second shooting 'for free' is any better than shooting a wedding for free! not much anyway, it's still a paid job that many pro photographers do).

You probably would be better off to ask if you could observe or shadow for maybe just part of the day (maybe ask to see how they set up and observe how they photograph the formals for example). Or even ask if it would be okay to take some candids when the bride (your friend) is getting ready (if that won't make for too many people in a small space), or at the reception while guests are dancing etc. and it's a more relaxed fun setting.


----------



## ruggedshutter

vintagesnaps said:


> The only thing about being a second shooter is that a photographer probably would expect an assistant to be able to get the necessary assigned shots without supervision. Seems like you'll need to learn to do that first before you're assisting (and I don't think second shooting 'for free' is any better than shooting a wedding for free! not much anyway, it's still a paid job that many pro photographers do).
> 
> You probably would be better off to ask if you could observe or shadow for maybe just part of the day (maybe ask to see how they set up and observe how they photograph the formals for example). Or even ask if it would be okay to take some candids when the bride (your friend) is getting ready (if that won't make for too many people in a small space), or at the reception while guests are dancing etc. and it's a more relaxed fun setting.



I agree somewhat but if the main wedding photog is used to handling a wedding by themselves then having someone tag along isn't going to hinder them much.  Personally I would welcome someone along willing to work for some experience, even if I wasn't able to use their work.  As long as they were respectful and willing to help out when needed then I would love to help someone get their feet wet.

I am glad that you have decided to let a pro handle the wedding.  Honestly, a wedding is not the place to be figuring out your camera, settings or how a flash works.  It's a fast pace day that will go by as fast for you as it does the couple.  I usually have to remind myself to slow down several times during the day otherwise i'll run myself ragged by the end of 8-10 hours.  

And believe me, crazy things will happen during weddings.  I had a bride 90 minutes late getting to her room to change; had no makeup, hair not done, dress not on....then the bridesmaids left after the ceremony, even though they were told to stay for formals.  Top it off it was 101°F and 110% humidity at an outdoor wedding.


----------



## tecboy

To me, wedding photography job is kinda boring.


----------



## Vtec44

You charge as much as your clients are willing to pay for your work! 





tecboy said:


> To me, wedding photography job is kinda boring.



Well, you're probably doing it wrong then.


----------



## Derrel

Heather, I just skimmed through this thread, and I have to say, you are very cool under fire! Your level-keeled tone and attitude in the face of a multi-page onslaught of _"Don't do it!_" 's and "_You're not ready!_" 's was very impressive, very commendable. Threads that have begun almost exactly as you began yours have turned nasty here before, many times. You're one cool cucumber, which is a great personality trait to have. I looked through your Facebook galleries...you could probably handle a low-key, simple wedding I think, as long as nothing were to go wrong, and the light level was good, and so on.


----------



## vintagesnaps

As long as nothing goes wrong... well, that's the thing, I don't know that you can count on everything going exactly according to plan.

It seems like what some people are talking about would be mentoring more than working as an assistant/second shooter. You could see if the/a photographer would let you shadow them to observe and take some photos to learn.

Maybe if you got some good shots you could use those in a portfolio but you'd need to check into contracts and permissions; make sure the b&g are okay with you using photos you took at their wedding (so later they don't see your photos pop up on social media and wonder who let you in! lol). Of course you know the bride so it may not be a problem in this situation but you might as well start learning how to do contracts and releases etc. now since you'll need to learn it anyway.


----------



## The_Traveler

Shots from the past few months | Photography Forum


----------



## The_Traveler

Derrel said:


> I looked through your Facebook galleries...you could probably handle a low-key, simple wedding I think, as long as nothing were to go wrong, and the light level was good, and so on.



Although this will certainly make another fan for Derrel, it seems that the OP hasn't yet got the understanding of managing light and editing to handle the more demanding editing of a wedding ceremony.
This may be an uncomfortable thing to point out but the shots on this *thread* are what I base my opinion on.


----------



## pixmedic

I used to be a big naysayer to those who wanted to start doing weddings (or whatever) without the proper equipment in duplicates,  and experience....but now I say, if you really want to do it, go for it! 'cause honestly, the fact is that people are not likely to be swayed by random anonymous people on the internet. Jump in and do your best, so long as you are prepared for best/worse case scenarios. 
Heres the caveat though...I will say this much. as far as weddings are concerned, what _*can *_go wrong, _*will *_go wrong. 
Lighting will be terrible, space will be cramped, people will get in your way, flashes will stop working, batteries will die, cameras will act up...all while you are trying to get that special shot that will only occur _*once *_during the wedding. 
we bring backups of everything.. and i mean _*everything*_.  two cameras, 6 flashes, 10 camera batteries plus a few chargers, 36 AA batteries for the flashes, tripod, monopod, light stands, 8 lenses....plus all the other misc. stuff that we might need. 
and $#&% _*still *_goes wrong, so I end up running around fetching spare stuff so the wife can keep shooting as uninterrupted as possible. 

Just be aware of your surroundings. If there is a rehearsal, GO TO IT! see how it will go down. if they give out pamphlets outlining what happens when, TAKE ONE!
cover your @$$. have a contract...whether your charging or doing it for free, doesn't matter. the biggest red flag in photography are clients that don't want to sign a contract. for us, no contract = no work. period. no exceptions. 

if you are doing Formals (we always do...its my favorite part) make sure someone (usually from the bridal party, or whoever is arranging things) is designated to help wrangle people for the different group shots. 
go over what the bride and groom want beforehand as far as specific shots go. 

I really could go on for pages and pages outlining what we do before a wedding, but a lot of it involves gear you don't have so there's not much point except to tell you to take everything you have, just in case. 
just go in as prepared as possible, both mentally and equipment wise, and by the time you are done with the shooting, editing, and delivery, you will have a pretty good idea if its something you want to continue doing.


----------



## ruggedshutter

pixmedic said:


> I used to be a big naysayer to those who wanted to start doing weddings (or whatever) without the proper equipment in duplicates,  and experience....but now I say, if you really want to do it, go for it! 'cause honestly, the fact is that people are not likely to be swayed by random anonymous people on the internet. Jump in and do your best, so long as you are prepared for best/worse case scenarios.
> Heres the caveat though...I will say this much. as far as weddings are concerned, what _*can *_go wrong, _*will *_go wrong.
> Lighting will be terrible, space will be cramped, people will get in your way, flashes will stop working, batteries will die, cameras will act up...all while you are trying to get that special shot that will only occur _*once *_during the wedding.
> we bring backups of everything.. and i mean _*everything*_.  two cameras, 6 flashes, 10 camera batteries plus a few chargers, 36 AA batteries for the flashes, tripod, monopod, light stands, 8 lenses....plus all the other misc. stuff that we might need.
> and $#&% _*still *_goes wrong, so I end up running around fetching spare stuff so the wife can keep shooting as uninterrupted as possible.
> 
> Just be aware of your surroundings. If there is a rehearsal, GO TO IT! see how it will go down. if they give out pamphlets outlining what happens when, TAKE ONE!
> cover your @$$. have a contract...whether your charging or doing it for free, doesn't matter. the biggest red flag in photography are clients that don't want to sign a contract. for us, no contract = no work. period. no exceptions.
> 
> if you are doing Formals (we always do...its my favorite part) make sure someone (usually from the bridal party, or whoever is arranging things) is designated to help wrangle people for the different group shots.
> go over what the bride and groom want beforehand as far as specific shots go.
> 
> I really could go on for pages and pages outlining what we do before a wedding, but a lot of it involves gear you don't have so there's not much point except to tell you to take everything you have, just in case.
> just go in as prepared as possible, both mentally and equipment wise, and by the time you are done with the shooting, editing, and delivery, you will have a pretty good idea if its something you want to continue doing.



^ That pretty much sums up wedding photography.  $hit going wrong and running around trying to save the day while keeping your head on straight to be able to create amazing work for the couple without losing your own sanity in the process.  Yup, that's wedding photography


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## thereyougo!

In my view you have to have waterproof underwear to be a wedding photographer.  I couldn't do it.  I've shot a few shots ay my elder brother's wedding, and just sent him the edited files as a brotherly gift some time after the event.  You can have all the insurances in the world to be able to re-stage the event.  But the bride and groom will always know in their heart of hearts that pictures weren't of the real thing.

Go with the bride and groom to see the photographers by all means, but they need to be the ones making the decisions for what *they *want.  Emotions so often come into it and they need to feel for it, and having someone else there analysing it might break the thought process.  You could certainly sit down with them to go through the photographers' portfolios, and at that point you could all see the selected photographer and see how amenable he is to you shadowing him.  You need to be very much in the back seat in the initial meetings as much about choosing a wedding photographer is about chemistry between photographer and subjects.  (IMHO, YMMV of course)

When my wife and I selected our photographer, (before my photography days) we didn't pick the cheapest or the one with the most elaborate portfolio.  We picked the one that seemed to 'get' what we wanted from the day.


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## MidnightUK

I think Heather has been just great on here, well done and I hope you continue to post on this forum.

Useful things to remember Heather:
Every pro photograher started from nothing and had to learn.  Always remember that anyone who gives advice once knew nothing, it makes it easer to cope with any comments or advice!  

A pro photographer used to have a well known blog giving advice to other photographers about business and how no one should ever start shooting weddings until they were a perfect business person and a perfect photographer.  They made money selling courses so people could achieve this perfection.  Then I heard an interview with them and it turned out when they started booking weddings they booked in 6 or so, but in fact had never shot a wedding themselves before setting up the business and taking bookings...   
They actually were very successful at shooting weddings.  They also said they were very embarrassed now at their first sets of wedding photos as they were not very good.  

I dont sugest going down the route of saying you are a pro and booking people in, but I do say take heart from this story overall. 

- Talk to your friends.  Not everyone cares deeply about photography on the way most on this forum do.  Your friends may have other priorities and may still wish you to shoot.  Make sure you show them photos you have already done, so they understand your level.

- Get some friends and dress them up in white or cream clothes or in suits or dark clothes and get them to be models for you.  You can practice guiding them into poses, learning about white balance, about using backgrounds.  Get them to model in friends gardens, in parks, by buildings, in sun and in shade and in rain if it rains where you live.  Weddings take place in all places and in all weathers.  If you can afford it, get a used wedding dress from a charity shop.  Take lots of images in poorly lit places (most churches are pits of gloom) and under lights that have nasty colour casts so you can learn to work in that environment.  All this can be lots of fun!

- Offer to do an engagement shoot for your couple, in the location of their wedding if possible.  Its a good practice run and they can see what you are able or not to do.

- Remember that there are lots of other photography jobs other than weddings, don't think in too narrow a field at this point in your life
-- Police photographer
-- Advertising photographer
-- Fashion photographer
-- Product and catalogue photographer
-- Portrait, children, baby or schools photographer
-- Architectural or Industrial photographer

There are some great wedding photo examples here, very high end, but the photographers are very critical because of that.  Well worth a look at their work though.
Wedding Photographer - FM Forums

Lots of luck


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## Heather Koch

tirediron said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, I'm the one who asked for it
> 
> 
> 
> You'd be surprised how often people forget that!  For the record, most people here are very willing to help people who genuinely want to learn (such as yourself).  Where some of us get frustrated is with the "I just got this camera as a gift; what settings should I use to shoot the wedding I booked for next Saturday?" crowd.  Helping someone who is willing to learn, understands that perhaps their preconceptions weren't totally accurate and is open to change and accepting of advice from those who have already walked the road is, IMO, very rewarding.
> 
> BUT... before you go any further down this road, you must answer this question:  What is the difference between a large pizza and a professional photographer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pizza can feed a family of four!
Click to expand...


Pizza can feed a family of four hahah!  Thanks again!


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## Heather Koch

Derrel said:


> Heather, I just skimmed through this thread, and I have to say, you are very cool under fire! Your level-keeled tone and attitude in the face of a multi-page onslaught of _"Don't do it!_" 's and "_You're not ready!_" 's was very impressive, very commendable. Threads that have begun almost exactly as you began yours have turned nasty here before, many times. You're one cool cucumber, which is a great personality trait to have. I looked through your Facebook galleries...you could probably handle a low-key, simple wedding I think, as long as nothing were to go wrong, and the light level was good, and so on.



I very much appreciate that! 



pixmedic said:


> I used to be a big naysayer to those who wanted to start doing weddings (or whatever) without the proper equipment in duplicates,  and experience....but now I say, if you really want to do it, go for it! 'cause honestly, the fact is that people are not likely to be swayed by random anonymous people on the internet. Jump in and do your best, so long as you are prepared for best/worse case scenarios.
> Heres the caveat though...I will say this much. as far as weddings are concerned, what _*can *_go wrong, _*will *_go wrong.
> Lighting will be terrible, space will be cramped, people will get in your way, flashes will stop working, batteries will die, cameras will act up...all while you are trying to get that special shot that will only occur _*once *_during the wedding.
> we bring backups of everything.. and i mean _*everything*_.  two cameras, 6 flashes, 10 camera batteries plus a few chargers, 36 AA batteries for the flashes, tripod, monopod, light stands, 8 lenses....plus all the other misc. stuff that we might need.
> and $#&% _*still *_goes wrong, so I end up running around fetching spare stuff so the wife can keep shooting as uninterrupted as possible.
> 
> Just be aware of your surroundings. If there is a rehearsal, GO TO IT! see how it will go down. if they give out pamphlets outlining what happens when, TAKE ONE!
> cover your @$$. have a contract...whether your charging or doing it for free, doesn't matter. the biggest red flag in photography are clients that don't want to sign a contract. for us, no contract = no work. period. no exceptions.
> 
> if you are doing Formals (we always do...its my favorite part) make sure someone (usually from the bridal party, or whoever is arranging things) is designated to help wrangle people for the different group shots.
> go over what the bride and groom want beforehand as far as specific shots go.
> 
> I really could go on for pages and pages outlining what we do before a wedding, but a lot of it involves gear you don't have so there's not much point except to tell you to take everything you have, just in case.
> just go in as prepared as possible, both mentally and equipment wise, and by the time you are done with the shooting, editing, and delivery, you will have a pretty good idea if its something you want to continue doing.



Thank you!!


Weddings were never my forte nor something I yearned to do but since I was asked I seriously considered it.  This was my second time being asked to shoot a wedding.  I turned down my cousins wedding because I simply wasn't in a place emotionally nor technically ready for a huge stress shoot then.  But I feel as if I may be okay this time around.  BUT among all of your guys's advice, I think I am going to opt out of the wedding and just offer them some engagements shots and anything outside the wedding they prefer.  Other than that I will still be attending the wedding, so I'm happy either way for them 

And of course I need more practice, though at 21 years of age i've been "shooting" since I was 15; it was merely a hobby up until this past year where I was getting many people telling me to charge them.  I hate those words, "how much do you want."  I never liked "charging" people nor telling them how much I wanted, because I didn't really know.  But now that I have a "set" list of prices, its much easier but still difficult asking for people's money.  I was never one to take from people, but at this point I know my efforts are worth something and if they're willing to pay... heck I'll take it 

I'm just proud of how much I have learned in these past few years and working my way up to my dream gear.  I started off with a pentax point and shoot camera and had many others from canon point and shoots, to nikon d3100, d5000, d5100, d90, d7000 and now d7100.  Out of the bunch I think I learned my way around camera with the d90 and as I aspire to grow my next "dream" camera is a full frame, d750.

Also, I'd like to note that I really never wanted to get into people portraits because I just loved the natural feel about landscapes, etc.  But as I grew, family and friends wanted "modeling" pictures, portraits of their grandkids, engagement shots, etc.  So I knew I had to learn and learn somewhat quick, so from where I started, I definitely feel better about my photography and comfort level, but many many many more years to come for learning and experiencing new things.


----------



## beagle100

Heather Koch said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heather, I just skimmed through this thread, and I have to say, you are very cool under fire! Your level-keeled tone and attitude in the face of a multi-page onslaught of _"Don't do it!_" 's and "_You're not ready!_" 's was very impressive, very commendable. Threads that have begun almost exactly as you began yours have turned nasty here before, many times. You're one cool cucumber, which is a great personality trait to have. I looked through your Facebook galleries...you could probably handle a low-key, simple wedding I think, as long as nothing were to go wrong, and the light level was good, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate that!
> 
> 
> 
> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to be a big naysayer to those who wanted to start doing weddings (or whatever) without the proper equipment in duplicates,  and experience....but now I say, if you really want to do it, go for it! 'cause honestly, the fact is that people are not likely to be swayed by random anonymous people on the internet. Jump in and do your best, so long as you are prepared for best/worse case scenarios.
> Heres the caveat though...I will say this much. as far as weddings are concerned, what _*can *_go wrong, _*will *_go wrong.
> Lighting will be terrible, space will be cramped, people will get in your way, flashes will stop working, batteries will die, cameras will act up...all while you are trying to get that special shot that will only occur _*once *_during the wedding.
> we bring backups of everything.. and i mean _*everything*_.  two cameras, 6 flashes, 10 camera batteries plus a few chargers, 36 AA batteries for the flashes, tripod, monopod, light stands, 8 lenses....plus all the other misc. stuff that we might need.
> and $#&% _*still *_goes wrong, so I end up running around fetching spare stuff so the wife can keep shooting as uninterrupted as possible.
> 
> Just be aware of your surroundings. If there is a rehearsal, GO TO IT! see how it will go down. if they give out pamphlets outlining what happens when, TAKE ONE!
> cover your @$$. have a contract...whether your charging or doing it for free, doesn't matter. the biggest red flag in photography are clients that don't want to sign a contract. for us, no contract = no work. period. no exceptions.
> 
> if you are doing Formals (we always do...its my favorite part) make sure someone (usually from the bridal party, or whoever is arranging things) is designated to help wrangle people for the different group shots.
> go over what the bride and groom want beforehand as far as specific shots go.
> 
> I really could go on for pages and pages outlining what we do before a wedding, but a lot of it involves gear you don't have so there's not much point except to tell you to take everything you have, just in case.
> just go in as prepared as possible, both mentally and equipment wise, and by the time you are done with the shooting, editing, and delivery, you will have a pretty good idea if its something you want to continue doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you!!
> 
> 
> Weddings were never my forte nor something I yearned to do but since I was asked I seriously considered it.  This was my second time being asked to shoot a wedding.  I turned down my cousins wedding because I simply wasn't in a place emotionally nor technically ready for a huge stress shoot then.  But I feel as if I may be okay this time around.  BUT among all of your guys's advice, I think I am going to opt out of the wedding and just offer them some engagements shots and anything outside the wedding they prefer.  Other than that I will still be attending the wedding, so I'm happy either way for them
> 
> And of course I need more practice, though at 21 years of age i've been "shooting" since I was 15; it was merely a hobby up until this past year where I was getting many people telling me to charge them.  I hate those words, "how much do you want."  I never liked "charging" people nor telling them how much I wanted, because I didn't really know.  But now that I have a "set" list of prices, its much easier but still difficult asking for people's money.  I was never one to take from people, but at this point I know my efforts are worth something and if they're willing to pay... heck I'll take it
> 
> I'm just proud of how much I have learned in these past few years and working my way up to my dream gear.  I started off with a pentax point and shoot camera and had many others from canon point and shoots, to nikon d3100, d5000, d5100, d90, d7000 and now d7100.  Out of the bunch I think I learned my way around camera with the d90 and as I aspire to grow my next "dream" camera is a full frame, d750.
> 
> Also, I'd like to note that I really never wanted to get into people portraits because I just loved the natural feel about landscapes, etc.  But as I grew, family and friends wanted "modeling" pictures, portraits of their grandkids, engagement shots, etc.  So I knew I had to learn and learn somewhat quick, so from where I started, I definitely feel better about my photography and comfort level, but many many many more years to come for learning and experiencing new things.
Click to expand...


OK,    you have gone from a d3100 then to the d5000 and d5100 and  d90, d7000 and now d7100
you've spent $000's and $000's on camera gear
and now you realize you need a lot more practice before growing into your "dream camera"

someday you may realize it's not about the camera gear !


----------



## Heather Koch

beagle100 said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heather, I just skimmed through this thread, and I have to say, you are very cool under fire! Your level-keeled tone and attitude in the face of a multi-page onslaught of _"Don't do it!_" 's and "_You're not ready!_" 's was very impressive, very commendable. Threads that have begun almost exactly as you began yours have turned nasty here before, many times. You're one cool cucumber, which is a great personality trait to have. I looked through your Facebook galleries...you could probably handle a low-key, simple wedding I think, as long as nothing were to go wrong, and the light level was good, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate that!
> 
> 
> 
> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to be a big naysayer to those who wanted to start doing weddings (or whatever) without the proper equipment in duplicates,  and experience....but now I say, if you really want to do it, go for it! 'cause honestly, the fact is that people are not likely to be swayed by random anonymous people on the internet. Jump in and do your best, so long as you are prepared for best/worse case scenarios.
> Heres the caveat though...I will say this much. as far as weddings are concerned, what _*can *_go wrong, _*will *_go wrong.
> Lighting will be terrible, space will be cramped, people will get in your way, flashes will stop working, batteries will die, cameras will act up...all while you are trying to get that special shot that will only occur _*once *_during the wedding.
> we bring backups of everything.. and i mean _*everything*_.  two cameras, 6 flashes, 10 camera batteries plus a few chargers, 36 AA batteries for the flashes, tripod, monopod, light stands, 8 lenses....plus all the other misc. stuff that we might need.
> and $#&% _*still *_goes wrong, so I end up running around fetching spare stuff so the wife can keep shooting as uninterrupted as possible.
> 
> Just be aware of your surroundings. If there is a rehearsal, GO TO IT! see how it will go down. if they give out pamphlets outlining what happens when, TAKE ONE!
> cover your @$$. have a contract...whether your charging or doing it for free, doesn't matter. the biggest red flag in photography are clients that don't want to sign a contract. for us, no contract = no work. period. no exceptions.
> 
> if you are doing Formals (we always do...its my favorite part) make sure someone (usually from the bridal party, or whoever is arranging things) is designated to help wrangle people for the different group shots.
> go over what the bride and groom want beforehand as far as specific shots go.
> 
> I really could go on for pages and pages outlining what we do before a wedding, but a lot of it involves gear you don't have so there's not much point except to tell you to take everything you have, just in case.
> just go in as prepared as possible, both mentally and equipment wise, and by the time you are done with the shooting, editing, and delivery, you will have a pretty good idea if its something you want to continue doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you!!
> 
> 
> Weddings were never my forte nor something I yearned to do but since I was asked I seriously considered it.  This was my second time being asked to shoot a wedding.  I turned down my cousins wedding because I simply wasn't in a place emotionally nor technically ready for a huge stress shoot then.  But I feel as if I may be okay this time around.  BUT among all of your guys's advice, I think I am going to opt out of the wedding and just offer them some engagements shots and anything outside the wedding they prefer.  Other than that I will still be attending the wedding, so I'm happy either way for them
> 
> And of course I need more practice, though at 21 years of age i've been "shooting" since I was 15; it was merely a hobby up until this past year where I was getting many people telling me to charge them.  I hate those words, "how much do you want."  I never liked "charging" people nor telling them how much I wanted, because I didn't really know.  But now that I have a "set" list of prices, its much easier but still difficult asking for people's money.  I was never one to take from people, but at this point I know my efforts are worth something and if they're willing to pay... heck I'll take it
> 
> I'm just proud of how much I have learned in these past few years and working my way up to my dream gear.  I started off with a pentax point and shoot camera and had many others from canon point and shoots, to nikon d3100, d5000, d5100, d90, d7000 and now d7100.  Out of the bunch I think I learned my way around camera with the d90 and as I aspire to grow my next "dream" camera is a full frame, d750.
> 
> Also, I'd like to note that I really never wanted to get into people portraits because I just loved the natural feel about landscapes, etc.  But as I grew, family and friends wanted "modeling" pictures, portraits of their grandkids, engagement shots, etc.  So I knew I had to learn and learn somewhat quick, so from where I started, I definitely feel better about my photography and comfort level, but many many many more years to come for learning and experiencing new things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK,    you have gone from a d3100 then to the d5000 and d5100 and  d90, d7000 and now d7100
> you've spent $000's and $000's on camera gear
> and now you realize you need a lot more practice before growing into your "dream camera"
> 
> someday you may realize it's not about the camera gear !
Click to expand...


It's definitely not about the camera, everyone has there way to getting their dream gear.  Let me tell you I didn't lose any money going through all those...
Also I used each camera as a learning step to gain my way up the totem pole.  Being able to function on different cameras, I believe its a strong suit...


----------



## Heather Koch

UPDATE:
I contacted the "clients," my friends and told them I would sadly decline their proposal for me as their wedding photographer.  She was just glad I was honest with her and I told them I'd help with finding the perfect one for them


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## shmne

Heather Koch said:


> UPDATE:
> I contacted the "clients," my friends and told them I would sadly decline their proposal for me as their wedding photographer.  She was just glad I was honest with her and I told them I'd help with finding the perfect one for them



Probably for the best! I don't offer to shoot friend's weddings for a reason. Mostly because I like to drink at their weddings.


----------

