# On C&C....



## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

For you beginners who are looking for C&C on photos - generically asking for C&C is like getting into a taxi cab and telling the driver to simply "go". Without directions, he doesn't know where to take you.

When you post a photo and simply state "C&C Welcome", or "Looking for C&C", the seasoned photographers have absolutely no idea where to start. They can attempt to comment on technical aspects, emotional appeal, lighting, composition, exposure etc... but unless you've specifically stated what you're looking for, they may not address your needs. In addition, when you DO NOT state a specific question(s) you may get a whole lot more than you asked for, and if you aren't prepared for it, it can sound like your work is being attacked - which is often not the case. 

Everyone loves constructive criticism because that's how we improve, but if you don't lay the foundation, there is nothing for us (generally speaking) to build upon.

Get it?


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2012)

I understand what you're saying, but someone looking to grow is generally not going to know where they need help.  Therefore having them be more specific may inappropriately narrow the responses.

An obvious exception to this rule is anyone trying to master a particular technical element like HDR.

I think better general advice is to have a tough skin and learn to take it as it comes.  Listen to all, internalize it all, clarify when you need to, ask follow up questions, don't always assume all advice given is either right or what you need... But again... Listen and accept it all.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

manaheim said:


> I think better general advice is to have a tough skin....




Yeah, because that works SO well around here.


A simple google search on "proper comment and critique of a photograph" brings up a slew of articles on how they can be more specific.


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

I agree totally in principle, but in practice, I'm going to say, based my seven years here, "Good luck with that!"


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

Maybe an ongoing conversation about it will make it stick in peoples minds... wishful thinking I'm sure.


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## fjrabon (Aug 27, 2012)

I agree with manaheim.  true beginners have no idea what they even need to improve on, and most in fact think their early photographs are very good.  If they were able to ask the types of questions you are proposing to begin with, they wouldn't be true beginners.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 27, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> and *most in fact think their early photographs are very good.*



Holy crap, isn't that the truth.
Just recently there was a faint dust-up when someone mistook the combination of natural beauty and an automatic camera for his own as yet undiscovered great talent and was angry that his talent was unrecognized.
It's like children being proud of the play-dough bowl they make in kindergardent.


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > and *most in fact think their early photographs are very good.*
> ...


Good analogy Lew, but those of us with more experience need to remember that like some of those children with the play-Doh bowl, they are proud of it, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Our "job" is to show them how they can make an even better Play-Doh bowl and, over time, graduate to real ceramics.  Of course there are always going to be a few who are convinced that there's no improving on their original work, but those we'll leave to their own devices.


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:
			
		

> Yeah, because that works SO well around here.
> 
> A simple google search on "proper comment and critique of a photograph" brings up a slew of articles on how they can be more specific.



I don't know what the mild snark is for, but I'm telling you what I think based on my experience here.  I imagine there's lots of good info out there on how to provide critique but I'm not sure if those articles apply to this setting- a zero entrance fee public forum?

Anyway, whatever.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 27, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Good analogy Lew, but those of us with more experience need to remember that like some of those children with the play-Doh bowl, they are proud of it, and there's nothing wrong with that.  *Our "job" is to show them how they can make an even better Play-Doh bowl* and, over time, graduate to real ceramics.  Of course there are always going to be a few who are convinced that there's no improving on their original work, but those we'll leave to their own devices.



I understand and agree.
I resist when they actually act like children, just burst into a new place, screaming for attention.
Any person new to photography who reads a bit to understand how the Forum works and acts accordingly, will get treated well, in fact coddled.

Lew


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Maybe an ongoing conversation about it will make it stick in peoples minds... wishful thinking I'm sure.



We do have ongoing conversations about this. Every 4-8 weeks either a veteran member makes a thread talking about how to get CC, or a disgruntled noobie is telling us how to give it. 

I predict this will be another of those heated multi-page threads, that end with no difference being made either direction.

Wash.

Rinse.

Repeat.


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## Overread (Aug 27, 2012)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html

^^


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html
> 
> ^^




Why is this not a sticky with big yellow blinking lights?


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html
> ...


Becaues, even if it was a sticky with big yellow lights and a boxing-glove on a spring that repeatedly punched you in the face 'til you read and understood it, many still wouldn't "get it".


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe an ongoing conversation about it will make it stick in peoples minds... wishful thinking I'm sure.
> ...



Which will make it different than 85% of the threads here because?


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Becaues, even if it was a sticky with big yellow lights and a boxing-glove on a spring that repeatedly punched you in the face 'til you read and understood it, many still wouldn't "get it".




I'm all in favor of giving the boxing glove a test run.....


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## fjrabon (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html
> ...



the people who would need it don't in fact read stickies.  Or anything really.


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Becaues, even if it was a sticky with big yellow lights and a boxing-glove on a spring that repeatedly punched you in the face 'til you read and understood it, many still wouldn't "get it".
> ...



As am I, but Acme's been out of stock on that for months.  It seems Wile E. bought the last one and they're back-ordered.


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## Overread (Aug 27, 2012)

Stickies are mostly not meant to be there for people to see and read- they are there for the established members to have an easy to find reference to material to link those who need to read it to them. That way they can direct people that need to read the info to the info without having to type it all out over and over again. 

Heck we have a pretty big tutorials and guides sticky and almost all the established members fail to remember that we have it!


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## pgriz (Aug 27, 2012)

Until a beginner has a mental structure in place that identified "what goes where", and has a sense of how the various parts are connected, it really hard to ask an intelligent question ("intelligent" in this context is what experienced photographers would expect to hear).  So I think we need to cut the true newbies a bit of slack.

Manaheim has identified that beginners don't know where help is needed.  Overread has resurrected the post on how to structure a critique (but it is again based on the assumption that the posters are aware of things he mentioned).

Here's a thought &#8211; have you ever taught a beginner something completely new?  Teach an adult non-swimmer how to swim?  Teach a city dweller how to start a campfire without using a can of gasoline?  Teach someone to ride a bike?  Teach a recreational paddler how to roll?  Teach someone how to use a tool like a machinist lathe?  Teach someone how to draw?  Any of these skills are basic, but rely on some key concepts and knowledge to make things make sense.  Often times, part of the struggle is to get the student to let go of "wrong" ideas and replace them with realistic ones.

Photography is no different.  The structure of knowledge we have can appear as arbitrary gibberish to someone who is holding some incorrect understanding of how things actually work.  Until that "block" is removed, what we say won't get them to see things correctly.  Where we can help is ask the questions that shed light on the framework someone is using to make their decisions.  Such as:

"Tell us what you think the strongest/best parts of your image?  Tell us what you think are the weakest?  What are you happy with?  What would you like to improve?  What do you think complete strangers would think of your image?"

The answers to these questions should allow us to see where the poster is coming from and what they are focused on.  Assuming they answer truthfully, we should be able to have a conversation and hopefully get them to recognize what more experienced photographers would see in those images.  I am fully in support of the article that Overread has referenced, but again, if there is a "block" of incorrect understanding, then continuing with good advice won't help.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Teach an adult non-swimmer how to swim?  Teach a city dweller how to start a campfire without using a can of gasoline?  Teach someone to ride a bike? ......
> 
> Photography is no different.





Yes it is.

A non-swimmer wouldn't jump in the deep in, then ask how to swim while they are drowning. And a city dweller wouldn't start a fire and then, ask how to burn something. But people go out and randomly click the shutter, and then come back here and ask how to take a photograph. Even worse, they get completely and totally pissed when their 'jumping in the deep end photos' don't obtain the ooh's and ahh's that they expected they are entitled to.


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## Sharna (Aug 27, 2012)

When I first joined a photography forum 6 years ago I put an image up on the board and got told it was not sharp and basically sucked. I was so hurt that I didn't return to that forum for 6 months to a year later. My skin is thick today. I can accept constructive criticism even non constructive criticism too. I look back at that first image often and think, what was I thinking. LOL Thank God I have learned how to accept CC and take what I need and leave the rest. I still don't know how to ask for CC any other way other than CC welcome and encouraged. If you see something that I need to improve on by all means tell me.  I can take it.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

Sharna said:


> I still don't know how to ask for CC any other way other than CC welcome and encouraged.




"How's my lighting?"
"How can I improve my composition?"
"Can my posing be improved?
"What emotion does this photo evoke?"
"I had trouble with exposure, what do you suggest would help?
"How can I improve the tones in this image?"
"The shadows were harsh here, how can I open them?"


Need I go on?


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## Sharna (Aug 27, 2012)

nope. 

LOL

Thanks!


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## fjrabon (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Sharna said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't know how to ask for CC any other way other than CC welcome and encouraged.
> ...



See, perhaps these were directed at the person you were responding to who is more intermediate, but if you view these types of questions as something a beginner even could think of, then I think that shows what we're talking about.  None of these things are things beginners even remotely consider.  Hence why they are beginners.  Beginners don't even remotely consider that its even a possibility that shadows could be opened up, let alone get to the point where they see their images, realize they're too harsh and think about asking how to open them up.


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## tirediron (Aug 27, 2012)

Sharna said:


> nope.
> 
> LOL
> 
> Thanks!


But he probably will anyway.


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## fjrabon (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Teach an adult non-swimmer how to swim?  Teach a city dweller how to start a campfire without using a can of gasoline?  Teach someone to ride a bike? ......
> ...



This is getting into 'old man shaking his fist at the clouds' type territory.  As has been stated numerous times, this type of thread is started over and over here.  The thing about beginners is that this type of thread doesn't help beginners in general, because by the time they've learned how to ask the types of questions you're talking about, they're not really beginners anyway.  

Learning how to ask the types of questions you're talking about is in fact far more difficult than, for instance, getting a properly exposed photo or getting your focus right.

How in the world do you expect that somebody who doesn't understand that a lower f/stop number means more light could think "how can I open up these shadows and get softer more even light?"


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2012)

Jaded TPF'er says 'what?'

What?


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

tirediron said:


> But he probably will anyway.





Nah. I'm done. You can only bang you're head so many times before you get a headache. You'd think I have learned that by now.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 27, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> > Sharna said:
> ...



I agree with you.

One thing I see with photography, that I don't see in several other hobby forums I have participated in, is that begining photographers get into the hobby by buying a camera and start taking pictures. Nothing *really* wrong with that. But what is obvious in this hobby, is that beginers don't seem to buy, or borrow, books on photography to start learning. It seems many just find this place, and that is the extent of their learning. Browse the forums...either dealing with composition, or the technical, you can easily spot who do exactly what I describe.

It may come down to personality, or have something to do with desire, seriousness, or true "passion*, as to how people decide for themselves *how* to learn, or the extent of, or *responsibility* of their own self education.

I do find it interesting how this hobby is so easily "get up and go" without much thought of it being something much deeper than snappping pics, something that really requires further study.


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Sharna said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't know how to ask for CC any other way other than CC welcome and encouraged.
> ...



Most beginners wouldn't know to ask these questions.

Going back to the pool analogy... someone who dives into the deep end is going to mostly splash around violently, gasp for breath and scream "HELP!"  

They are _not_ going to be asking the proper technique for doing the breast stroke or whether or not shaving their legs is going to save them 3 seconds on the lap clock.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I do find it interesting how this hobby is so easily "get up and go" without much thought of it being something much deeper than snappping pics, something that really requires further study.




If you could go down to the dealership and buy a race car, as easy as you can go down to walmart and buy a digital camera... I'm sure there'd be more "get up and go"  'nascar drivers' too.


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## Overread (Aug 27, 2012)

Fishing, photography, model wargaming, pc games, knitting, etc... Any hobby which has sufficiently low entry costs and which has no overhead licences/restrictions upon it will generally attract new people who won't approach it with studied research, careful planning and lots of pre-hobby preparation. And heck yes they'll make mistakes - lots of them.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 27, 2012)

It would be useful if, when someone registered, they got an email with some basic information - in large type.


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2012)

The_Traveler said:
			
		

> It would be useful if, when someone registered, they got an email with some basic information - in large type.



Or maybe tied to a brick and thrown through their window???


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## Overread (Aug 27, 2012)

manaheim said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We tried, but lego bricks just don't work well at breaking windows - and they are all we can afford in the budget after the last mods Christmas party


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> We tried, but lego bricks just don't work well at breaking windows - and they are all we can afford in the budget after the last mods Christmas party




Ah... bitter's hourly strippers rate took too much of the budget?


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## jake337 (Aug 27, 2012)

I can't go on 1x.com right now because I am at work but they are very picky on how critique is given over there.  Reading this guide may help some.

1x.com - Critique

1x.com - How to Write Critique


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## deeky (Aug 27, 2012)

I agree that more specific requests would be great, ideally.  But now a bit of reality - as much as you want to gripe and moan, the only one you can ultimately change is yourself.  If you want things to improve, start there.  As a relative newcommer, I'm already really tired of the petty cat fights between longstanding members that happen in some poor newcommer's thread.  That just gives the forum a bad image, forget about my opinion of the cats doing the fighting.  For anyone even considering working pro - POTENTIAL CLIENTS WILL GOOGLE YOU.  If you use any piece of your real name or company name here, it will pop up on a Google search.  There are a whole lot of 'professional' photographers on here that I would never consider working with based on their statements.  

I am just fine with this thread being started every few weeks as long as the cat fights happen here and not in some unsuspecting poster's thread originally about something completely different.  

Even if you don't like their work or the way they ask for help, don't be a douche in your response and you yourself will probably prevent 90% the over-reactive newcommers that pop off.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

jake337 said:


> I can't go on 1x.com right now because I am at work but they are very picky on how critique is given over there.  Reading this guide may help some.
> 
> 1x.com - Critique
> 
> 1x.com - How to Write Critique




OMG How have I NEVER seen this site! Its awesome! Not that I'm joining or anything, but the photos are definitely gorgeous.


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## terri (Aug 27, 2012)

Sharna said:


> When I first joined a photography forum 6 years ago I put an image up on the board and got told it was not sharp and basically sucked. I was so hurt that I didn't return to that forum for 6 months to a year later. My skin is thick today. I can accept constructive criticism even non constructive criticism too. I look back at that first image often and think, what was I thinking. LOL Thank God I have learned how to accept CC and take what I need and leave the rest. I still don't know how to ask for CC any other way other than CC welcome and encouraged. If you see something that I need to improve on by all means tell me.  I can take it.


You can now, but I'm sorry that ever had to happen to you.    A pretty crappy way to learn about something when you were still vulnerable to attack.

And with this thread, Chris is coming from a good place.   Part of the trouble is the number of variables involved while working up the energy to answer a newbie's genuine request for C&C - and studying variables takes time.    Do the forum veterans forget that it takes some courage from a newbie to even post a photo - especially if they do believe it looks good?     Sure.    Do newbies forget that they are newbies, and that taking 50 shots from their digital P&S does not equate experience?    Sure.    

Does everyone have a bad day when questions or replies on this forum hit them the wrong way, for any number of reasons?      

When a more experienced photographer comes across a newbie's first efforts, maybe the Play Doh analogy should come to mind.    There aren't many adults who would deliberately rip a child's first efforts at making a bowl.    If it didn't really resemble a bowl, one might pose the question: What were you trying to make here?     

But then, I tend to agree with the C&C school of thought that it's not a bad thing for newbs to, perhaps not explain a shot if the subject matter is obvious, but offer up basic techniques applied and then ask for comments.    If they are still kids with Plah Doh, they don't even know enough to do that.    

C&C is for grownups.    Even most kids can take a mild comment.   Trouble can start when the so-called forum experts can't or won't take the time to make one.


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 27, 2012)

The whole notion that some should tell you what they don't know is ridiculous. If I am new at something, and have little or no real knowledge, how would I know what to ask?


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > I do find it interesting how this hobby is so easily "get up and go" without much thought of it being something much deeper than snappping pics, something that really requires further study.
> ...



Could somebody here please tell me what kind of race car to buy? I'm a dad, with one kid,and really want to collect on the life insurance policy I have, so I was thinking, hey,m maybe a nice race car 'incident' would be a way to do *it *and make *it* look convincingly accidental! Not sure what my budget is, but I know I want a race car I will not outgrow in like, six races. Thanks for any help you guys can give me! U guys R awesome! Toodles!


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> The whole notion that some should tell you what they don't know is ridiculous. If I am new at something, and have little or no real knowledge, how would I know what to ask?




Whats ridiculous is that a 'photographer' would try to say that they know absolutely nothing about a photograph. If someone is snapping shots, and posting questions about them, they obviously have something in mind that they want to know about. They have to have seen a photograph before, and their obviously wondering why their photograph isn't as good as the one they've tried to emulate.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > The whole notion that some should tell you what they don't know is ridiculous. If I am new at something, and have little or no real knowledge, how would I know what to ask?
> ...



Yes they are wondering. They are wondering because they lack the language to talk about it. That's what we can teach them. Then they grow.


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## manaheim (Aug 27, 2012)

Earlier today I asked a coworker about something related to enterprise storage.  I knew essentially what I was asking, but I didn't know anything about storage so I wound up sounding crazy and he had NO idea what I was asking about.  That's essentially what we're talking about here.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

meh f**k it... its a lost cause.


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## MTVision (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:
			
		

> Whats ridiculous is that a 'photographer' would try to say that they know absolutely nothing about a photograph. If someone is snapping shots, and posting questions about them, they obviously have something in mind that they want to know about. They have to have seen a photograph before, and their obviously wondering why their photograph isn't as good as the one they've tried to emulate.



When I joined this site I would never have considered myself a photographer. I had just gotten my camera and was interested in photography but knew nothing about it - I had never even been on a forum. So I spent a little time here and read a little bit - it was mostly about forum etiquette though . Anyways, I posted a couple pictures for CC because that's what most of the threads I saw were. I knew nothing about photography. I was still shooting in auto and just snapping away. The questions you posted earlier about composition, lighting, etc. ---- I wouldn't have had the faintest idea what all of that meant so I sure as hell couldn't have asked it. 

It's been about a year since I've joined and I've learned a lot and hopefully my photography has improved. Now if I post for CC - I could ask for specific things because I know a little bit about the craft. 

A little off topic but I had been on TPF for a month - id bought a bunch of books that were recommended as well as followed millions of links posted here. I also spent a lot of time just reading through the forum. By the time school started up - I was taking digital photography I - I already knew everything (and more) that was taught in that class. I ended up being more of a teachers helper then a student. And I didn't just learn photography - photoshop as well.  If it wasn't for this forum I'd probably still be using my camera as an expensive point and shoot


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:
			
		

> Whats ridiculous is that a 'photographer' would try to say that they know absolutely nothing about a photograph. If someone is snapping shots, and posting questions about them, they obviously have something in mind that they want to know about. They have to have seen a photograph before, and their obviously wondering why their photograph isn't as good as the one they've tried to emulate.



Ok, a person buys their first camera and takes some snapshots. They are proud of their pictures and post a few. Now, you want them to ask if the DOF and bokeh is acceptable when they don't even know what DOF and bokeh is. Get real. People start somewhere and for many that means they know what a camera is and how to make it go "click".


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## The_Traveler (Aug 27, 2012)

We can blame this all on the equipment manufacturers.
The P&S cameras now are so automatic and good that a newbie takes a picture and marvels.
"Man, the color is great, everything is in focus and sharp!'
The perceived difference, which they don't know enough to see, between their pictures and truly professional shots is minimal as far as they are concerned.

So their reaction is, 'hey, I've heard photography is hard and my pictures look great, I must be a forking talented genius.'

So they come here to show us their everything-in-focus, P&S pictures, somehow expecting that they will be hailed as a diamond in the rough and welcomed.
They don't know enough to be able to perceive any difference between their shots and magazine covers.

My attitude is that no one should be that naive.
Things are thought to be difficult and require talent because they do.
No sensate being would expect to play the piano at Carnegie Hall, be an Olympic diver or a neurosurgeon without some knowledge, training and experience.

Don't run into a new environment, waving your 'stuff' and expect to be the second coming of the photo-messiah.

It just ain't so.

They should look around a bit and, if not understand, at least realize what they don't know.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> ... start somewhere and for many that means they know what a camera is and how to make it go "click".





Then they have absolutely no business asking for c&c if that's all they know how to do. Especially if they get pissed when their snapshots are called nothing more than snapshots.


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## MTVision (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:
			
		

> Then they have absolutely no business asking for c&c if that's all they know how to do. Especially if they get pissed when their snapshots are called nothing more than snapshots.



 Not all newbies get pissed when you tell them how it is. Saying they have no business asking for c&c is kind of ridiculous. Some people come to forums to learn or because they have an interest. The ones who aren't serious don't stay around so I don't get what the big deal is. If you don't want to c&c newbies photos/snapshots then don't. 




			
				The_Traveler said:
			
		

> We can blame this all on the equipment manufacturers.
> The P&S cameras now are so automatic and good that a newbie takes a picture and marvels.
> "Man, the color is great, everything is in focus and sharp!'
> The perceived difference, which they don't know enough to see, between their pictures and truly professional shots is minimal as far as they are concerned.
> ...



Well I must be that naive. I didn't come in here thinking I was the best photographer ever but like I said before - I knew absolutely nothing about photography. I posted for c&c and got some replies and I thanked everybody. Then I spent way too much time on this forum and on the Internet learning what I could. Which who knows if that would've happened if I hadn't come on here and posted for c&c and found out exactly how much I didn't know.


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 27, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:
			
		

> Then they have absolutely no business asking for c&c if that's all they know how to do. Especially if they get pissed when their snapshots are called nothing more than snapshots.



That's fine, but it has nothing to do with the point of your post. "Pissed" about the C&C wasn't included in your original point. You want them to asked for specific and technical advice when they are just learning. Excuse me but I wasn't aware this forum was only for the highly experienced photographers like yourself. I always thought all levels were welcome, even newbies that don't know what to ask. But in your eyes I guess they "have absolutely no business" to ask and experienced photographer for help in learning. Amazing.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 27, 2012)

You're excused.


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## Fred Berg (Aug 27, 2012)

I got into a taxi at the airport in Paris once and had to direct the driver to my destination even though I'd never been there before; and he was the taxi driver, not me. A very odd experience made even more difficult as I don't speak French and he couldn't speak either English or German. I got in thinking he would know his way round his own town and I would be taken to where I wanted to go with the minimum of fuss....silly moi.


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> ChristopherCoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This thread has taken sort of a bizarre turn.  We started... I think... trying to help the noobs out... and now the originator of the entire thread appears to have decided to isolate the noobs and kick them off the forum.



wtf?


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

No. What I'm saying is that if they want C&C, then they need to know how to specifically ask for it. If they do not know what C&C is, or what they want to accomplish with it, then they have no business asking for it.


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> No. What I'm saying is that if they want C&C, then they need to know how to specifically ask for it. If they do not know what C&C is, or what they want to accomplish with it, then they have no business asking for it.



Seriously, dude.  That's just nuts.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Seriously, dude.  That's just nuts.




So is you're opinion, but I'm not faulting you for it.


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## pgriz (Aug 28, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> No. What I'm saying is that if they want C&C, then they need to know how to specifically ask for it. If they do not know what C&C is, or what they want to accomplish with it, then they have no business asking for it.



Perhaps we should ask:  what kind of C&C do you want?  Pick one of the options below:
1)  Tell me how brilliant and innovative I am.
2)  Give me a pat on the back.
3)  Tell me what I need to do technically to improve.
4)  Tell me if the image is interesting to you.  Is there something in the composition that I can improve?

1 is usually the domain of the newbie who has discovered photography and is excited to be producing images.
2 is usually the unspoken request by experienced photographers who post pretty good images.
3 is usually the request from relatively new to intermediate photographers trying to learn.
4 is the request from someone interested in how the image plays in the wider audience.  Could be a newbie, could be an advanced photographer trying something new.

Did I miss any?


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

Here&#8217;s an analogy for you;
Tell me what you don&#8217;t know about any subject.
That is essentially what you are proposing.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 28, 2012)

Pretty good list.

I'm usually 2 but a lot of 3 pokes in.
I'm tired of 1


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

ChristopherCoy said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, dude.  That's just nuts.
> ...



I guess the key here is I need to make sure I don't take any Introduction to XXX classes taught by you and I'll be good.

I can't imagine what my first trumpet class would have been like... wow.


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 28, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> Here&#8217;s an analogy for you;
> Tell me what you don&#8217;t know about any subject.
> That is essentially what you are proposing.




I don't know anything about flying, other than it takes a plane. I've desperately wanted to obtain my pilots license for years now, but I don't go around blindly asking people "how can I improve my flying skills?"

When I have asked pilots about it in the past, I ask them "Do you recommend a full flight school, or a private instructor?" Or, "are there any flight schools in the area that you recommend?" I also remember asking a few pilots if they recommended I start out with a sport license or a recreational license. I know that there are those two licenses because I've at the very least completed my own google search on the matter. I don't understand the way that airspace works, or the "lanes of travel" that pilots must adhere too, I don't know anything about instrumentation other than there is usually a screen with little green dots on them, and I wouldn't have the foggiest idea about how to control a plane in the air. However, I wouldn't go into a pilots forum and ask them "how can I fly better?"


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

I suppose if you're suggesting that people should do some up-front work before blindly posting a picture on here and saying "Tell me what I need to do to improve", then yeah... I'm certainly with you in spirit.  I'd love for folks who come here to have spent at least an hour browsing the web and learning some basics about even the language of a camera... or heck... even read a book.  No argument there at all, Chris.

However, as someone pointed out earlier, the only one you can change is yourself.  Speaking from experience a LOT (not all, but a LOT) of the people who come on here as noobs really haven't invested any effort beyond clicking that shutter button... and that's not likely to change. 

But yes, if that is your point, then yes... I certainly agree.  That would be good.


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## terri (Aug 28, 2012)

^^   Obviously, that IS his point and it has been all along.    I don't guess he expected to get jumped on or branded as a newbie-hater.    He has stated only some exasperation in how to help some folks who just post images and sit back passively....then maybe get upset if they actually hear some well-intended C&C.    



> Heres an analogy for you;
> Tell me what you dont know about any subject.
> That is essentially what you are proposing.


Nonsense!    You are coming off as deliberately obtuse.    What is so wrong with wanting - hoping - a newbie who posts a picture will be able to say, "I took this with my so & so....I like it, but I can't really say WHY I like it, ha ha.    I think it's pretty sharp, but should that shadow be there across the face?    I mean, is that okay or supposedly not acceptable in good photos?   You can still see the guy, of course and I like the smile.    What do you all think?"    Or even better, "Would there be a better way to take this picture?"

The poster may not have the slightest clue about technique, but can still figure out how to ask for help.... we can all stumble through when it matters to us.   Right?


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

terri said:
			
		

> ^^   Obviously, that IS his point and it has been all along.    I don't guess he expected to get jumped on or branded as a newbie-hater.    He has stated only some exasperation in how to help some folks who just post images and sit back passively....then maybe get upset if they actually hear some well-intended C&C.
> 
> Nonsense!    You are coming off as deliberately obtuse.    What is so wrong with wanting - hoping - a newbie who posts a picture will be able to say, "I took this with my so & so....I like it, but I can't really say WHY I like it, ha ha.    I think it's pretty sharp, but should that shadow be there across the face?    I mean, is that okay or supposedly not acceptable in good photos?   You can still see the guy, of course and I like the smile.    What do you all think?"    Or even better, "Would there be a better way to take this picture?"
> 
> The poster may not have the slightest clue about technique, but can still figure out how to ask for help.... we can all stumble through when it matters to us.   Right?



Well, terri, clearly I wasn't the only one who missed it initially... So "obviously" is sort of a matter debate don't you think?

I'm also a bit baffled that you've chosen now to get involved in this discussion, and chained your fairly pointed remarks off a post where I just said "oh duh, I get it, good point".


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## terri (Aug 28, 2012)

No need to be baffled.    I actually commented one or two pages ago, as well.       Hoping to steer this in a better direction it seemed to be going, so I was disappointed to see this tone continuing on today.

"Pointed remarks" are my specialty!    :sillysmi:


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## manaheim (Aug 28, 2012)

terri said:
			
		

> No need to be baffled.    I actually commented one or two pages ago, as well.       Hoping to steer this in a better direction it seemed to be going, so I was disappointed to see this tone continuing on today.
> 
> "Pointed remarks" are my specialty!    :sillysmi:



Ah I must have missed that.  Usually when you post I dive under the desk. 

Anyway... Yes. Op has a good point, but hard to execute.  Kinda like stopping the oncoming flood... So then to continue the discussion in the positive vein, how would OP suggest this be done?


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 28, 2012)

terri said:
			
		

> ^^   Obviously, that IS his point and it has been all along.    I don't guess he expected to get jumped on or branded as a newbie-hater.    He has stated only some exasperation in how to help some folks who just post images and sit back passively....then maybe get upset if they actually hear some well-intended C&C.
> 
> Nonsense!    You are coming off as deliberately obtuse.    What is so wrong with wanting - hoping - a newbie who posts a picture will be able to say, "I took this with my so & so....I like it, but I can't really say WHY I like it, ha ha.    I think it's pretty sharp, but should that shadow be there across the face?    I mean, is that okay or supposedly not acceptable in good photos?   You can still see the guy, of course and I like the smile.    What do you all think?"    Or even better, "Would there be a better way to take this picture?"
> 
> The poster may not have the slightest clue about technique, but can still figure out how to ask for help.... we can all stumble through when it matters to us.   Right?



I really have no intentions of being "deliberately obtuse" nor was I calling anyone a newbie hater. I simply don't understand why it cannot be accepted that some people have a desire to learn photography and start out knowing zip. And sure one should utilize all of their available resources to learn and better themselves. But I, for one, see this forum and others as one of those resource. And to expect a newbie to ask specific and technical questions right out of the gate, I think, is unrealistic. I just think that those that want to help should and those that don't just ignore the thread. Why all the hoopla?


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