# Need help for low lighting restaurant photos...



## Shades of Blue

I will be taking some pictures for a co-worker at a nice restaurant this weekend.  She's having a family get together and have rented a room in the restaurant.  I need the experience, so she's agreed to let me spend about half an hour before dinner getting a group photo.

I need some low light help fast.  I plan on using either my 35mm, or 50mm depending on room size and the number of people.  I have a speed light that I plan to point towards the ceiling, and I doubt I'll have any additional flashes before the event.  I also really have no clue how the lighting will be.

Basically, what should I look for?  I'm thinking I'll have to have the aperture around 4-5.6 with an ISO around 200-400, but like I said I don't have a lot of experience with indoor photos.  I'll definitely have a tripod though!

Composition wise, I normally will try to get some photos of entire bodies and from the waist up, but are there any other shots I can try?


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## jaomul

Group shots may need an aperture of f8 or even f11, depending on how may rows of people or their varying distance from point of focus.

I don't know exactly your light or how low it is, but my experience of anything remotely low light, i'd be surprised if you are not at iso 1600, 3200 or even 6400 if your camera goes there. 

You'll probably need at least 1/60th of  a second if your subjects stay very still and you are steady with your camera


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## astroNikon

^^above is the key information

Practice low light before you go out there.  Go into a room, close the windows at various amounts and use inanimate objects.  Practice various situations so you can be more comfortable with your camera's limits before being having to figure it out on location.

To get proper exposure
You'll have to raise the ISO to a point that you feel comfortable it doesn't increase too much noise.
and lower shutter speed dependent upon movement.

I forgot what camera you have.  People here can generally recommend max ISO levels.


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## Shades of Blue

jaomul said:


> Group shots may need an aperture of f8 or even f11, depending on how may rows of people or their varying distance from point of focus.
> 
> I don't know exactly your light or how low it is, but my experience of anything remotely low light, i'd be surprised if you are not at iso 1600, 3200 or even 6400 if your camera goes there.
> 
> You'll probably need at least 1/60th of  a second if your subjects stay very still and you are steady with your camera



Thank you!  I imagine the lighting will be very low.  I've never been to this restaurant, but I plan on arriving 30 minutes prior to get everything set up.  So noted...higher ISO, higher f number.


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## Shades of Blue

astroNikon said:


> ^^above is the key information
> 
> Practice low light before you go out there.  Go into a room, close the windows at various amounts and use inanimate objects.  Practice various situations so you can be more comfortable with your camera's limits before being having to figure it out on location.
> 
> To get proper exposure
> You'll have to raise the ISO to a point that you feel comfortable it doesn't increase too much noise.
> and lower shutter speed dependent upon movement.
> 
> I forgot what camera you have.  People here can generally recommend max ISO levels.



I have a D5000.  I will definitely practice.  I'm going to have my daughter and wife stand several feet apart, front to back and practice my focus and exposure.  This will be good experience!


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## astroNikon

I've never tried a d5000
but try ISO 1600.  Also test 800 up to 3200/6400

Practice with the flash too. But the ceiling height and color, etc will be different from your test room to the restaurant.


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## tirediron

Have either a DoF calculator on your smartphone (if you have one), or printed DoF tables so that you can use an appropriate aperture for the situation.  Too little and you will have focus issues, too much and you're going to make your exposure even more difficult than necessary.  Without knowing anything about the venue, or the group size, IF POSSIBLE, given that you have only one speedlight, my preference would be to position the group in such a way that I had a fairly plain, blank wall behind me, and bounce the flash offof that, rather than the ceiling, and turn it into a large reflector.  Also, don't forget to pose them in a semi-circle around you (again, depending on the size of the group) so that the DoF and exposure is more equal, rather than having significant fall-off as you would in a straight line.


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## Shades of Blue

astroNikon said:


> I've never tried a d5000
> but try ISO 1600.  Also test 800 up to 3200/6400




Will do!


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## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Have either a DoF calculator on your smartphone (if you have one), or printed DoF tables so that you can use an appropriate aperture for the situation.  Too little and you will have focus issues, too much and you're going to make your exposure even more difficult than necessary.  Without knowing anything about the venue, or the group size, IF POSSIBLE, given that you have only one speedlight, my preference would be to position the group in such a way that I had a fairly plain, blank wall behind me, and bounce the flash offof that, rather than the ceiling, and turn it into a large reflector.  Also, don't forget to pose them in a semi-circle around you (again, depending on the size of the group) so that the DoF and exposure is more equal, rather than having significant fall-off as you would in a straight line.




I downloaded an app for that yesterday!  I will take a tape measure and try to do as much pre-work as possible.


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## jaomul

If you are lucky enough that the table cloth is white and you have a low white ceiling, bouncing flash off the ceiling may work quite well if everyone is sitting around the table. Sometimes ceiling bounced flash leaves shadows under the eye sockets and nose, often a reflector is used to bounce back up, and thus creating small less harsh shadows, that are pleasing to the eye as we are used to overhead light from the sun. The white table cloth can help act as that reflector


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## KmH

When bouncing flash off a ceiling to photograph people you need some of the light going straight forward to put light in their eye sockets so everyone does not have 'raccoon eyes'. Many flash units have a white 'bounce' card built into them we can extend for just that purpose. It's easy to make one yourself. 
The good news is bouncing the light off the ceiling makes the light source apparently a lot larger so it is softer, less harsh light even if the light is coming from an unflattering overhead angle.

Another issue with bouncing flash is the light has to travel further and as distance increases the amount of light power reaching your subjects decreases.
The phenomena is a law of nature - the Inverse Square Law.
The decrease in light power is inversely proportional to the distance the light has to travel and the reduction in light power is a square function.
In other words if the light has to go 2x further, the light power reaching your subjects is reduced by 4 times. If the light has to go 4x further the reduction is 16 times less light that reaches your subjects.


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## Braineack

I'd be using f/4 as my base aperture, and only stopping down if you have groups of people at differnent focal planes.

I'd also start with a higher base ISO so the flash doesn't have to work at full power and has wiggle room to go brighter if the scene calls for it.  Since you mentioned the 35 and 50, im assuming a crop sensor so maybe use 1600?  I can get away with much higher.  honestly, the 18-55 _might_ be better here.

I like to shoot flash somewhere between 1/60-1/125sec.  The slower the shutter the more amibent lighting that mixes in and you can start getting double exposures.  the ISO level is what really brings th to control the overall lighte ambient lighting back in.  If you want a dark background and bright subjects, lower the ISO a few stops.  If you want a bright background and subjects, increase the ISO.

So you'll just be exercising your ISO settings to balance the ambient, aperture settings to handle the DOF, and letting the TTL flash keep the subjects/scene exposed properly.

Dont always just point the flash up.  I like a 60° forward in a lot of cases, and sometimes I'll even point it on a wall behind me.


here's a random shot from a lunch event thing in a simly lit room.



DSC_7195-21 by The Braineack, on Flickr

That's ISO 4000, f/5.0, and 1/60sec.  Flash in TTL.   Full Frame to give you an idea.

I had another example set, but the EXIF got scrubbed, so ill have to go back and look:







pretty sure very similar settings.  Flash with diffuser pointed forward, angled up at 60°.


first time I ever shot anyhting like this, I used my D3100 and 35mm 1.8G.  I had the camera pegged at f/2 and a


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## Shades of Blue

Braineack said:


> I'd be using f/4 as my base aperture, and only stopping down if you have groups of people at differnent focal planes.
> 
> I'd also start with a higher base ISO so the flash doesn't have to work at full power and has wiggle room to go brighter if the scene calls for it.  Since you mentioned the 35 and 50, im assuming a crop sensor so maybe use 1600?  I can get away with much higher.  honestly, the 18-55 _might_ be better here.
> 
> I like to shoot flash somewhere between 1/60-1/125sec.  The slower the shutter the more amibent lighting that mixes in and you can start getting double exposures.  the ISO level is what really brings th to control the overall lighte ambient lighting back in.  If you want a dark background and bright subjects, lower the ISO a few stops.  If you want a bright background and subjects, increase the ISO.
> 
> So you'll just be exercising your ISO settings to balance the ambient, aperture settings to handle the DOF, and letting the TTL flash keep the subjects/scene exposed properly.
> 
> Dont always just point the flash up.  I like a 60° forward in a lot of cases, and sometimes I'll even point it on a wall behind me.
> 
> 
> here's a random shot from a lunch event thing in a simly lit room.
> 
> 
> 
> DSC_7195-21 by The Braineack, on Flickr
> 
> That's ISO 4000, f/5.0, and 1/60sec.  Flash in TTL.   Full Frame to give you an idea.
> 
> I had another example set, but the EXIF got scrubbed, so ill have to go back and look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pretty sure very similar settings.  Flash with diffuser pointed forward, angled up at 60°.
> 
> 
> first time I ever shot anyhting like this, I used my D3100 and 35mm 1.8G.  I had the camera pegged at f/2 and a




Thanks!  I do typically put my speed light at 75 degrees, so it does generally help get some light on the subjects without having that full flash in the face effect.  I will try 60 as well in this situation!  As mainly an outdoor photographer, I think the ISO tips are the most important for me because I've never really had to have the ISO much above 200-400.

You guys are awesome!


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## astroNikon

I like to use this ==> Flash Pocket Bouncer for Nikon SB910 SB900 SB700 SB400 SB300 SB600 SB28 SB24 ++

though I just use a couple of rubber band to keep it on.

last night taking a few pics of some cameras I used 2 SB800s.  2 pieces of white paper which I affixed to the flash with rubber bands, then bent the paper a bit to replicate the flash bouncer.

direct flash from your popup can cause red eye.  the further away from the lens you get with flash the less likely you'll get red eye.  And if it's not direct, and you diffuse it more you'll get better spread of the light.


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## Shades of Blue

astroNikon said:


> I like to use this ==> Flash Pocket Bouncer for Nikon SB910 SB900 SB700 SB400 SB300 SB600 SB28 SB24 ++
> 
> though I just use a couple of rubber band to keep it on.
> 
> last night taking a few pics of some cameras I used 2 SB800s.  2 pieces of white paper which I affixed to the flash with rubber bands, then bent the paper a bit to replicate the flash bouncer.
> 
> direct flash from your popup can cause red eye.  the further away from the lens you get with flash the less likely you'll get red eye.  And if it's not direct, and you diffuse it more you'll get better spread of the light.




Ok here is an update:

I got out the camera and turned on 2 lamps in my living room.  Started at ISO 1600 and used my 18-55 lens.  I am in manual mode and started at f8 at 50mm.  I can't the shutter speed anywhere NEAR where I need to be and get the exposure meter to read near the center.  I jumped the ISO up to 3200 for giggles, and manually set the camera at f5.6 with a shutter speed of 1/200.  Ok, now I'm getting a decent shot, but it's still way under exposed and grainy.  So I bumped the ISO down to 2000, dropped the shutter speed to 1/125, and kept shooting at f5.6.  Pics look better now, just underexposed.

I've got the lighting low like I imagine a nice restaurant would be.  The speed light helps me get a decent shot, it is just way underexposed.  I'm working right now to try and get the exposure up in post.  

So, do I go into this with the idea of ISO 2000, fast shutter, at f5.6 and just increase the exposure in post?  Or, am I still missing something.  My hope is that the restaurant even though it may seem very dark will have more light than my living room at the moment.


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## spiralout462

I'm usually always at 3200 or 6400 ISO indoors, especially at night.  You can guarantee there will be the need for noise reduction in post.


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## Shades of Blue

spiralout462 said:


> I'm usually always at 3200 or 6400 ISO indoors, especially at night.  You can guarantee there will be the need for noise reduction in post.



Thanks.  Yeah I see the noise for sure.  Reduced it some and it's better but not great.


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## cherylynne1

I tend to underexpose slightly and bump it up in post, I know others prefer to use the high ISO and use noise reduction in post. Either way will add a little grain. I'm not sure if anyone's ever done side-by-side testing to see which is actually better...I'd love to see the results of that. But I think it is somewhat a matter of preference. What really matter is that everything is sharp.


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## Shades of Blue

Ok so I increased the flash compensation and that makes a world of difference.  Pics look perfect now.  I can drop the ISO to 1600 at 1/200 second and f8 and I'm getting much brighter photos.  

Only thing that bugs me is that the exposure meter still reads way under exposed even with the test beam it uses for flash.  Once I take the shot I'm getting much nicer and sharper shots.


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## jaomul

In this situation you are probably better using 1/60th of a second. The flash will help freeze the motion, but if its darkish, you will be asking your subjects to be still, and as you said you are on a tripod. the 1/60th will leave more ambient in. 

It may be that you are limited by conditions and you wont get the exposure in the centre, the flash will then componsate, but any area out of the flash zone may be underexposed. This probably wont be an issue


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## astroNikon

You meter is metering without the additional light from the flash.  So it's going to meter underexposed.
Keep adding more light as needed to get the shutter/ aperture/ ISO at the level that you want, or make the compromises that are needed especially when you get more people in a wider setting.

Are you using TTL where it preflashes ?
or setting the flash manually and finding a good setting ?
using TTL with preflashes will get people blinking/shutting their eyes when the shot is actually taken.

Here's an example of a simple diffuser example I mentioned above. Simply a piece of paper (thicker paper) from a small scratch pad and rubber bands on the flash.
Can't get much cheaper than that.





Then with the flash


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## Didereaux

get yourself a copy (used) of 'Speedliter's Handbook'.  All your questions will be answered and show examples.


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## Braineack

Shades of Blue said:


> Ok so I increased the flash compensation and that makes a world of difference.  Pics look perfect now.  I can drop the ISO to 1600 at 1/200 second and f8 and I'm getting much brighter photos.
> 
> Only thing that bugs me is that the exposure meter still reads way under exposed even with the test beam it uses for flash.  Once I take the shot I'm getting much nicer and sharper shots.



I'd lower the shutter to be able to bring in more ambient light on the background and lamps in the pictures.

 I'd work between 1/60-1/125sec.  1/200sec will effectively cut out all ambient light compeltely and your exposures are going to rely on flash 100% -- especially coupled with the aperture settings.  This is probably why you're having to increase the flash comp, it's probably firing closer to full power.  What happens when youre in a room thats much bigger than youre currently testing?

What that said, why are you shooting at f/8?  It's good to know they'll turn out when you need them, but I dont think youll need that much DOF in most cases.  Just making your flash work overtime and have to light up both the subjects and background.  If you can get away with just having to put light on your subject, and then a little on the background then I think more power to you -- no pun intended.
*
Here's another exercise:*  In the same room, take a shot at 1/200sec, f/8, and ISO 1600 WITHOUT the flash.  Is the image anything but black?


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## Shades of Blue

Braineack said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so I increased the flash compensation and that makes a world of difference.  Pics look perfect now.  I can drop the ISO to 1600 at 1/200 second and f8 and I'm getting much brighter photos.
> 
> Only thing that bugs me is that the exposure meter still reads way under exposed even with the test beam it uses for flash.  Once I take the shot I'm getting much nicer and sharper shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd lower the shutter to be able to bring in more ambient light on the background and lamps in the pictures.
> 
> I'd work between 1/60-1/125sec.  1/200sec will effectively cut out all ambient light compeltely and your exposures are going to rely on flash 100% -- especially coupled with the aperture settings.  This is probably why you're having to increase the flash comp, it's probably firing closer to full power.  What happens when youre in a room thats much bigger than youre currently testing?
> 
> What that said, why are you shooting at f/8?  It's good to know they'll turn out when you need them, but I dont think youll need that much DOF in most cases.  Just making your flash work overtime and have to light up both the subjects and background.  If you can get away with just having to put light on your subject, and then a little on the background then I think more power to you -- no pun intended.
> *
> Here's another exercise:*  In the same room, take a shot at 1/200sec, f/8, and ISO 1600 WITHOUT the flash.  Is the image anything but black?
Click to expand...



I'm at f8 simply for the reason you mentioned...trying to be sure I get everyone in focus.  I still don't have a number of people for the shot, but I'm estimating 15-20.  I wanted to get my settings pre-set for a low light setting with plenty of DOF, and then adjust down at the shoot rather than up if needed.  

My other thought is regarding low lighting in general.  Even in a dimly lit restaurant, there is bound to be more light in the restaurant than my two lamps are providing.  Even though dimly lit is dimly lit, I can't imagine the restaurant providing any less light than the two lamps I'm using.


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## Braineack

This shot was: 1/60sec, f/3.5. and ISO 800. It's 3 stops faster than your settings and it's still pretty dark:







same settings:







look at the light fall off.   The flash was unable to provide decent exposure on both the main subject and also fill in the amibent.  You cant even see the figures behind him maybe 5-7 feet away.

These are some of the first pictures Ive ever done of something like this back in 2012 -- they are pretty poor.

Just gives you an idea.  I missed that youre only doing the one group shot, so that makes more sense.


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## Shades of Blue

Well the event has come and gone.  It wasn't as bad as I thought, but worse at the same time.  The room was small and triangular in shape, and as expected the lighting was poor.  The walls were merlot, and the curtains were mustard.  Crazy colors, low light, and cramped.  The worst part was that the largest wall was actually a solid glass window!  There was a total of 23 people, which felt like 50.

All in all, I'm happy with the group photos.  I ended up putting them against the entry way and I stood in a chair to get everyone's faces in view.  Couples and individual family shots didn't go so well.  Once the food started arriving, we had to put them against the mustard curtain backdrop.  They just don't look good to me even though the compositions are ok.

It was a good learning experience, enough to know that I won't be signing up for any more large indoor group shots for a while.  I felt a little overwhelmed being a beginner to this.

The good part is that I work with the lady and she is only paying me enough to cover my expenses for the evening.  I wouldn't dream of charging for these, as this was a learning experience.


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## tirediron

Well....


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## astroNikon

Live and Learn

the only way to Learn.

If you look back, you came a long way from the beginning of this thread.  Think of how it would have been without this thread and no practicing/experimenting.


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## dennybeall

As photographers we always want the photos to be perfect but when you are doing an event your job is to capture the event for your client. If you capture the event and the client is happy you've earned your full pay.


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