# Umbrella effect outdoor?



## SlimPaul (Oct 9, 2009)

Hey,

I'm planning on buying an SB-600 soon, for some more creative shots outdoor. I was wondering what I could use with the speedlight to soften the light. I know I can get an umbrella pretty cheap, but that's not really going to work too well in the field. I've also read about diffusers (like omnibounce) but I'm not sure if it's going to bring the best results. If you know any good ways to achieve great lighting from one flash without any umbrellas please let me know. Help appreciated.

Thanks, Paul


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

What is it you're planning to shoot, and why won't an umbrella work?


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## Garbz (Oct 9, 2009)

You need to increase the size of your light source. The Omnibounce does this to a very very very tiny extent compared to an umbrella.

As Buckster said why wouldn't it work? A fast shutter speed to bring down the ambient light, and a silver reflective umbrella for maximum efficiency is something a lot of other people use just fine with their Speedlights.


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## Double H (Oct 9, 2009)

SB800 through a 40" umbrella camera left, I think I was at about 1/2 power, fired by pocket wizard plus IIs. Works great for me!


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## IgsEMT (Oct 9, 2009)

*Umbrellas *are great both indoors and outdoors. The only issue I can imagine you might have using one, is time. My kid is 2 and setting up one (2minutes) means she lost the interest thus at home I don't use it much. 
*Omnibounce *is really nice indoors but leaves ugly shadows behind the subject if you're subject is close to the wall.
*My solution* is _foam paper_ and shooting through it at around full power. It softens up the light really nice, costs about $0.99 thus if gets destroyed its only 99cents. You can get one at Arts&Crafts store.

Good Luck


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

IgsEMT said:


> *Umbrellas *are great both indoors and outdoors. The only issue I can imagine you might have using one, is time. My kid is 2 and setting up one (2minutes) means she lost the interest thus at home I don't use it much.
> *Omnibounce *is really nice indoors but leaves ugly shadows behind the subject if you're subject is close to the wall.
> *My solution* is _foam paper_ and shooting through it at around full power. It softens up the light really nice, costs about $0.99 thus if gets destroyed its only 99cents. You can get one at Arts&Crafts store.
> 
> Good Luck


I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.

The stofens and other small-head style diffusers work okay if you're bouncing off ceilings and walls, because they effectively turn ceilings and walls into very large sources of light, relative to the subject.  Outdoors, without a ceiling and walls to bounce off of, they aren't nearly as effective, and it's usually necessary to break out a bigger panel of some sort.  The easiest, quickest and least expensive of those is the umbrella.


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## NateS (Oct 9, 2009)

Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light.  You don't really need an omnibounce for that.

Outdoors, the omni bounce does very little except rob usable flash power.  I did a test on some outdoor macros awhile back and I got identical harshness/softness from using the omnibounce versus no diffuser.

Indoors the only time that I find the omni bounce useful is if the ceilings are too tall to bounce well, or if you need a bit of catch light forward for the eyes when bouncing to the ceiling.  I personally think a bounce card style "diffuser" to throw some light forward would be better indoors.....my problem is that I swictch between portrait and landscape modes a lot when shooting with kind of throws the bounce card type out the window (doesn't work so well in portrait).

I used to use the omnibounce outside ALL the time.  Now I just use the bare flash ....or just get out the umbrella.


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

NateS said:


> Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light.  You don't really need an omnibounce for that.


While you don't need it, it does help spread the light more than the direct light without diffusion by bouncing off in all directions, not just in the direction the light is pointing, and every bit helps.



NateS said:


> Outdoors, the omni bounce does very little except rob usable flash power.


For the situation that I think he's going for (portraiture), we're in agreement, though I've seen Joe McNally use them outdoors, stating that while they don't help much, they do help some, and he'll take it as a quick resort.  Again, it goes to the "every bit helps" idea.



NateS said:


> I did a test on some outdoor macros awhile back and I got identical harshness/softness from using the omnibounce versus no diffuser.


I've done the same tests, and found that there was enough of a difference in diffusing and softening the light for me to use them for my macro shooting.



NateS said:


> Indoors the only time that I find the omni bounce useful is if the ceilings are too tall to bounce well, or if you need a bit of catch light forward for the eyes when bouncing to the ceiling.  I personally think a bounce card style "diffuser" to throw some light forward would be better indoors.....


I'm getting better results with them than you are, I guess, because I see a noticeable difference between using them and not.



NateS said:


> my problem is that I swictch between portrait and landscape modes a lot when shooting with kind of throws the bounce card type out the window (doesn't work so well in portrait).


Twist your flash head sideways and then when you go into portrait mode just flip it 90 degrees.

Gary Fong demonstrates the technique in this vid: 






NateS said:


> I used to use the omnibounce outside ALL the time.  Now I just use the bare flash ....or just get out the umbrella.


When using anything more than natural light, I prefer to use an umbrella, softbox or even a panel, even outdoors, except for macros as noted above.  My last resort in any situation is a bare flash, but that's just me.


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## SlimPaul (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.

P.S. Just in case I couldn't bring an umbrella with me, do you suggest getting lightsphere over the omnibounce?


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## Double H (Oct 9, 2009)

SlimPaul said:


> Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.



A single stand and umbrella are not that much work, and if you are shooting a group, there's always someone willing to help you out. And a stand can get higher than someone's arm. I use one anytime I shoot portraits/wedding formals outdoors, and I have never had to carry my stand.


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

SlimPaul said:


> Thanks for your replies guys. I guess an umbrella is the best way to go after all. Buckster, I wanted to shoot my friends outside the school, and we'll probably be moving a lot so setting up and moving an umbrella might be a bit of trouble. I might just buy a small umbrella (without the stand) and ask someone to hold it for me.


That's a great solution.  Nothing easier and more versatile than a light stand you can move and reposition with just your voice!  (assistants are great!)  

Something to keep in mind on any occasions that you do actually use a stand with umbrella outdoors though - weight it down with sandbags, bricks, rocks, backpack or whatever else you can find, so that a breeze doesn't catch the umbrella like a sail and blow it over and bend up your umbrella ribs or stem or something.


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## NateS (Oct 9, 2009)

Buckster said:


> NateS said:
> 
> 
> > Merely bouncing the light off the ceiling or wall is what makes them the large sources of light.  You don't really need an omnibounce for that.
> ...



Omnibounce works fine for me indoors, I just lose too much light above and too much gets sent forward leaving me with more shadows behind my subject than by using only the flash head itself with bouncing.  

Outdoors....well, you really aren't getting a larger source of light by much with the omnibounce.  I think the biggest difference you see is with the fact that you are getting less light from the flash which is obviously going to make it not as harsh.  I've gotten nearly identical results from just using my flash at -1.7 without the flash as with 0 and the omnibounce.  

For the macro tests....I did the exact same shots with and without the omnibounce....literally no difference.  Not sure why we are getting different results.  I use my shoot through umbrella on macros when I can and THAT makes a huge difference for softening the light on bugs and flowers.

With a bounce card type (not the Gary Fong type) diffuser, you are still in a pickle when you twist the flash head to bounce the celiing.  You end up with the bounce card pointing light toward a side wall instead of in front when you go into portrait orientation.  No way around this without twisting the bounce card on the flash head each time you swith orientation.



All of that said, there is no harm in using the omnibounce outdoors unless you are having problems with getting enough flash power.  If you are getting enough light output out of it and think it's helping, might as well keep using it.


Edit:  Just watched the video and his style of bounce card is different than the ones I usually see.  I'll have to check into that.


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## IgsEMT (Oct 9, 2009)

> I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.


I never said I use it on camera, Topic here is using an accessory light source thus it is a suggestion for what I use on the fly - I also never said I do that when shooting a wedding. For wedding, when shooting outdoor portraits, I use shoot-through umbrella and/or a softbox. 
But when I'm out in the park with my kid and taking pictures of her and IF I get to convince her to give me few poses, foam paper does the job on the fly. It also works well indoors, on the fly.


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

IgsEMT said:


> > I don't see how that would give a very large source of light relative to the subject, especially if you're using it on camera somehow.
> 
> 
> I never said I use it on camera,


That's true, but you did say that it was an alternative to spending two minutes setting up an umbrella.  I took that to mean that it was an alternative to setting up a light stand.  No biggie, I've been wrong before.  Explain it to me.



IgsEMT said:


> Topic here is using an accessory light source thus it is a suggestion for what I use on the fly


Right - specifically what to use OUTDOORS.  So, tell us all about it.



IgsEMT said:


> I also never said I do that when shooting a wedding.


Did I say you did?



IgsEMT said:


> For wedding, when shooting outdoor portraits, I use shoot-through umbrella and/or a softbox.


Wow.  What a coinky-dink!!  



IgsEMT said:


> But when I'm out in the park with my kid and taking pictures of her and IF I get to convince her to give me few poses, foam paper does the job on the fly. It also works well indoors, on the fly.


And I ask again - how?  It's not big enough in relation to the subject to work well at all.  It's light physics 101, but hey, I'm always ready to learn something new, so fill me in on how that works.

Thanks in advance.  :thumbup:


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## IgsEMT (Oct 9, 2009)

oh Buckster, you're hilarious  
Here's my little story: Few months ago, I asked opinion about Gary Fong's products and got some mixed opinions, as well as link to this site DIY Reflector-Diffuser. After reviewing it and purchasing this funky material, I liked the results but it wasn't replacement to umbrella. So again, I looked at fong's site and saw a product that he has where you're shooting through. So i tried my $0.99 hardcore investment to shoot it through. Unlike the design, mine is simple Velcro on the bottom to fasten to the flash. And after few experiments shooting indoors I was pretty impressed by illumination and softness compared to omnibouce. I then took it outdoors and although it is WORTHLESS for full length adult, it does the job relatively decent on a two year old.
The light-stand you mention. At a wedding, and such I work with an assistant and he is holding a quantum flash rigged to a remote. In the park with my wife and a two year old, she's holding sb800 mounted with my design while camera is set to commander mode. 

I would love to hear some of your lighting techniques. Thats why I love photography, very subjective and always room to learn and improveeacesign:


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## Buckster (Oct 9, 2009)

IgsEMT said:


> oh Buckster, you're hilarious


Thanks.  Hey, it keeps me young at heart!  



IgsEMT said:


> Here's my little story: Few months ago, I asked opinion about Gary Fong's products and got some mixed opinions, as well as link to this site DIY Reflector-Diffuser. After reviewing it and purchasing this funky material, I liked the results but it wasn't replacement to umbrella.


I'm with you 100% so far, and we're tuned in like FM here!  This is the root source of my confusion on some of what you've been saying I think: We both realize that these little modifiers being discussed just aren't going to replace a larger diffusion light source like an umbrella.



IgsEMT said:


> So again, I looked at fong's site and saw a product that he has where you're shooting through. So i tried my $0.99 hardcore investment to shoot it through. Unlike the design, mine is simple Velcro on the bottom to fasten to the flash. And after few experiments shooting indoors I was pretty impressed by illumination and softness compared to omnibouce.


I can understand that.  It's a little bigger than the omnibounce, so it's a little more effective.  Been there, done that myself.  I've got a couple of Stofen Omnis that I use for certain things, as well as some white foam sheet bouncers decked out with velcro and gaffer's tape.  :thumbup:  We're still in sync!



IgsEMT said:


> I then took it outdoors and although it is WORTHLESS for full length adult, it does the job relatively decent on a two year old.


Here's where you start to lose me.  Even on a two year old, outdoors at that small size, it's got to be close enough to the subject to do some wrap-around because there's nothing to bounce off of.  So it's got to be pretty darn close.  To me, that mean you're going off camera, and if you're outdoors and going off-camera, you've got to be setting up your light somehow, and if you're doing that anyway, why not just use an umbrella?  That's what I'm thinking as I replied to you... but here comes the answer to that conundrum...  



IgsEMT said:


> The light-stand you mention. At a wedding, and such I work with an assistant and he is holding a quantum flash rigged to a remote. In the park with my wife and a two year old, she's holding sb800 mounted with my design while camera is set to commander mode.


So you have an assistant who's holding the small modifier close enough to your child to resolve the problem of it being close enough to the subject that, in relation to that subject, it's large enough to create a soft light!  Well, now it makes sense!  :thumbup:  Of course, she could hold the umbrella just as easily...  



IgsEMT said:


> I would love to hear some of your lighting techniques. Thats why I love photography, very subjective and always room to learn and improveeacesign:


I rarely have assistants, so I'm forced to use stands most of the time.  I occasionally bunjee, clamp or gaffer tape a light to something handy, but usually, it's stands for me.  I prefer to use umbrellas and reflectors for softening my light because they're easy to fold up, take anywhere and set up, but I do have 2 medium and 1 large softbox that I employ, as well as a light panel system, though they're usually reserved for use in studio settings, where I use 2 300 w/s strobes and 3 200 w/s strobes along with my 2 580EX II's in whatever combinations I think I need for the situation.

Like you (it sounds like), I'm big on the whole DIY thing, and have a variety of modifiers for bounces, grids, snoots, gobos, barn doors, and so on made from paper, cardboard, poster board, foam sheets, coroplast, gaffer's tape, wood, plastic, hot glue, and whatever... lol.  Then there's the sound, light and IR beam triggers made from DIY kits, and a pressure trigger made from tin foil and cardboard.  I even DIY'd myself a gimbal head from scrap motorcycle parts, a couple of bearings and a few other odds and ends welded and bolted together:







It actually works great for birding and so on with long lenses.

Anyway, so yeah... that gives you a pretty good idea of what I'm using for light and modifiers I guess.


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## IgsEMT (Oct 9, 2009)

You can say I have an assistant holding the modifier, but my wife isn't going to hold an umbrella with a clamp, I did thought about it though. Plus park outings already include a stroller, dipper bag, her purse and my small camera bag (so I'd like to keep it as light as possible).

Yeah, for years I've been an assistant and now I have one. When I first started actually shooting, I tried few jobs w/o an assistant and felt that I spend TOO MUCH TIME running and setting up. Now on average wedding, I got 4dyna-heads and 3 packs. One pack stays with portraits, two others go as room lights. My assistant holds the quantum with a sunpack battery (traded in lumydynes b/c they are TOO big & HEAVY) and my main flash is sb800 on the camera.


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