# Is there anyone left who wants to learn?



## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Ugg, I just wrote a really ugly rant, and deleted it but the basics of it was:
I used to learn SO MUCH from here.
Instead of listening to people in the business, a lot of people (especially those without photo posts or websites), critique away, and not in a good way.
This could be an awesome place to share.   
Could it please get back to that?
Cindy


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

You have a point, however I get very few C&C on my shots which can be disapointing....actually, I've run out of my files of shots to post.

I to have learned much from the forum.

Got to get out and snap lots more.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Added to say, I learned pretty much everything I know from Jon Michael, and Hertz.  I was willing to listen, and grew a nice business because of it.
Terri helped me enormously.
So did Allison.
Arch Angel
Soooooo many others.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

Yes there are many members who have valuable lessons to learn from....and Big Mike, Digital Matt, etc.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi PNA, 
Welcome!
I don't mind people not liking things.  I post on much tougher boards.  What I don't like is people judging others without showing any work at all.
I mean why would I listen to someone who has nothing to contribute?  I understand that the viewer is the be all end all, and that great, and profitiable, but what I don't understand is being repremanded by photogs who might not understand that I have disregarded the rule of the thirds, the "correct" horizon, ect.
I wanna know who I am talking to is all, and I'd love to see this forum make it mandatory that a person have a website, or at very least a photo post.


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## Puscas (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> and not in a good way.




I'm not really sure what you are saying here Cindy. Do you mean people are rude or that they don't put enough thought into their critique?





pascal


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

PNA said:


> Yes there are many members who have valuable lessons to learn from....and Big Mike, Digital Matt, etc.


 
How could I forget them???? Yes, absolutely yes.  And Pete Christie, and Allison and her hubby.  Absoluely!


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## JDS (Feb 19, 2007)

I wanna learn...  I've posted a very few photos here and have gotten some decent feedback.  I just received my brand spankin' new 350D (Woo hoo!!), so I'm eager to get out and shoot some more.  Look for some from me in the not-so-distant future!

Also relating to your post, I've felt kinda awkward when I have offerered any critique, one because my post count isn't all that high and most people don't really know me here.  Second, because I haven't posted many photos, so I can't expect my input to weigh very much when no one has seen my work to back it up.

The ones I have offered input on are usually fairly simple points that a beginner is still trying to learn..("How do I achieve this effect?" shutter speed vs. aperture, and that sort of thing)  Beyond that I try not to say much because I just don't have the experience.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'll try to do my part to get it back to 'the way it used to be'...   I just still have a lot to learn before I can be of much help to others here...


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> I wanna know who I am talking to is all, and I'd love to see this forum make it mandatory that a person have a website, or at very least a photo post.


 
Hummmm......interesting, I for one do not have a web site, only the forum's gallery where my posted shots are.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi Pascal,
i guess what I am saying is that I would love to hear the raw capture of a college photographic student, or someone who is just looking, but I don't want to hear "how I could do it 10,0000 times" better from someone who never posted a shot.
On top of that, very few want our opinions anymore.  Not our opinions exactly, but TLC how to go forward and become successful.
Sorry, I'm tired.  Had a wedding on Friday, an engagement on Saturday, and a wedding on Sunday, so I'm tired and grouchy.  I'd LOVE to help new people, people starting out, but they know it all, already.  (A lot anyway, not like the good old days. )


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

JDS said:


> I just still have a lot to learn before I can be of much help to others here...


 
I'm not sure I agree with your statement....even if your input is not correct, hopefully someone esle will correct you.


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## ashfordphoto (Feb 19, 2007)

you can always ignore the critiques that you don't like.

I'm a fan of getting as much information as possible and evaluating which info is vital and correct vs. which info is dumb. It's a piece that really helps me learn the most. I'm absolutely new at photography, but that doesn't mean I should shut my mouth. It just means that the more experienced should show me the way.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

You don't count PNA, I can see your work, and agree or not with it.  BTW, I agree.  Fine job.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet.....as a professional you have much to offer amateurs such as me. I have no aspirations to become professional, but as many, I want to improve my skills.


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## Puscas (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Sorry, I'm tired.  Had a wedding on Friday, an engagement on Saturday, and a wedding on Sunday, so I'm tired and grouchy.  I'd LOVE to help new people, people starting out, but they know it all, already.  (A lot anyway, not like the good old days. )




don't apologize. I sure hope nobody here thinks they know enough (I certainly don't) or thinks they are above any help. Without people willing to help, TPF wouldn't be the great forum it is.
So go ahead and rant; it keeps us on our toes..




pascal


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## Christie Photo (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Added to say, I learned pretty much everything I know from Jon Michael, and Hertz.  I was willing to listen, and grew a nice business because of it.
> Terri helped me enormously.
> So did Allison.
> Arch Angel
> Soooooo many others.




(sniff)


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

ashfordphoto said:


> you can always ignore the critiques that you don't like.
> 
> I'm a fan of getting as much information as possible and evaluating which info is vital and correct vs. which info is dumb. It's a piece that really helps me learn the most. I'm absolutely new at photography, but that doesn't mean I should shut my mouth. It just means that the more experienced should show me the way.


 

Here is the problem with that statement.  How am I to decide if  I can't view the critique's photos?  Is he or she someone who just wants to tell everyone that they are great, and we all suck, or do they actually have something going on.

The basic point is this, however.
There used to be a LOT of people here willing to teach everyone whatever they picked up.
And now there isn't, because a lot of people without websites, or posted work, know it all, and they will gladly tell you.
I'm not saying people, couldn't and shouldn't sound in.  Yes, absolutely.  We all learn a lot that way too.  What I'm saying is that there are a few STILL around here willing to help, to those who don't already have it all figured out.
Ugg, I know I'm just exhasted.  Sorry for the rant.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> You don't count PNA, I can see your work, and agree or not with it. BTW, I agree. Fine job.


 
Flattery will get you.........somewhere.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Ok, I'm saying this really badly.
Sniff to you too Pete, because you and Allison got me going, and Terri showed me a different way to present it, and Hertz graded me on it, and Jon Micheal helped me keep my chin up.  It was a total group effort and that is what I am looking for today.


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## Christie Photo (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> How could I forget them???? Yes, absolutely yes.  And Pete Christie, and Allison and her hubby.  Absoluely!



Ooooo....  I should have read further.


How ya been, my friend?

I've had a lot of distractions lately, but I'm still around.  I'm pretty scarce here on weekends, and I take Mondays off.

I PROMISE to be more attentive.

I think it's still pretty good around here.  And now that we have you more often, it can only bet better.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

Some time ago, I suggested that the person requesting C&C included the original they were working from......it was shot down. I still think it's a good idea.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Ugg, I am really saying this poorly, but what I am TRYING to say is that I am willing to help anyone who doesn't know everything already.  Gary Fong and the Fong Dong can step away.
Sorry, I guess I'm just grouchy and totally sleepy.


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## Oldfireguy (Feb 19, 2007)

_I learned pretty much everything I know from Jon Michael, and Hertz
_
There still around.  Just have to find them.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi Pete,
You are way too sweet!  I'll be around as much as possbile but I have 3 weddings this week.  I'm bitchy just thinking about it.  It's prolly why my panties are in a wad.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

I know where Hertz and Jon are.    But thank you!!!!!!


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

I hear ya PNA.  It's stuff like that that has my tired dander up.


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## Christie Photo (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> I know where Hertz and Jon are.    But thank you!!!!!!



I just saw Hertz here after a long hiatus...  a pleasant surprise.


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## Arch (Feb 19, 2007)

i know what your saying cindy.... but i think people do want to help and everyone is still around from the names you mentioned (apart from jm)... hertz has recently made an appearance and many of us are glad to see him back.... ferny just appeared after a long while away.... 
so people will come and go... but when we can, we all try and help each other, thats what makes this forum better than any other.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

Bring on the photos.....I'll nail them even if I'm wrong!

Then I'll learn when someone corrects me.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

Archangel said:


> thats what makes this forum better than any other.


 
Amen!!!!


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## Digital Matt (Feb 19, 2007)

PNA said:


> I'm not sure I agree with your statement....even if your input is not correct, hopefully someone esle will correct you.



I'm not sure I agree with that statement 

I see a lot of people that learn a new concept, shakily, in one thread, and 5 minutes later rushing to try and explain the concept to someone else, before they have a firm grasp.  It really just ends up cluttering up a thread in which a basic question can be answered easily, and correctly by someone else (probably the same person or persons that answered it in the previous thread(s).  

Sometimes I think people just post for the sake of showing that they know something, rather than actually trying to help someone.  I try to answer questions when I am 100% certain that my knowledge is correct, and I fully understand the concept.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hey AA, you are one of my most faves too, along with Mentos, and many others.  I can't explain how much I learned from each and all of you.
Oh, I wish they would come an go as they used to.  Not the know all say alls, who advise people based on what they learned in last spring's college class, but based on real world experience, examples, and soforth.  I yearn to learn more, but it's hard to take people seriously when they have no examples of work, but plenty of advice.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Glory be Digital Matt!  Exactly my point, however much better said!


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## Tangerini (Feb 19, 2007)

I can see where you're coming from.  As someone who is new here, I do feel that I should be posting pictures in a balanced way with adding my critique/comments to others' photos in order for my words to have perspective.
I am absolutley here to learn.   I can't wait to pick all of your brains! 
I'm personally reclaiming my love for photography.  Back when I was more avid with my photography I had so much to learn and now that I'm getting back into it I feel I've lost ground and have more to learn just to get to the point I was.

You sound like you need a hug :hug::


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## his4ever (Feb 19, 2007)

You know what? I know a little of what you mean.  I started out with not much help and I did not get it till I yelled in one of my picture posts  "HELP!" (but a very long a wordy paragraph).  And then they came from out of no where and really started to post comments on my stuff. For me, Big Mike, Christie Photo, LaPhoto, and (I can picture his Avatar but cannot remeber his name) and a few others, have been such a blessing to me.  Oh have been so wonderful!! For that I have been very thankful for. 

Maybe what we are running into now is that people are afraid of hurting someones "self-estem" (which does not exsist).  We only grow from comments and crituqes. I could be wrong in this thought.  

Elsaphet, to answer your posting title question... I am here to learn... and boy am I hugery!


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## Christie Photo (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> ... it's hard to take people seriously when they have no examples of work, but plenty of advice.




hehehehehe....  that's an OLD story.  But I'm used to it...  I have four kids.


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

Digital Matt said:


> I'm not sure I agree with that statement
> 
> I see a lot of people that learn a new concept, shakily, in one thread, and 5 minutes later rushing to try and explain the concept to someone else, before they don't have a firm grasp. It really just ends up cluttering up a thread in which a basic question can be answered easily, and correctly by someone else (probably the same person or persons that answered it in the previous thread(s).
> 
> Sometimes I think people just post for the sake of showing that they know something, rather than actually trying to help someone. I try to answer questions when I am 100% certain that my knowledge is correct, and I fully understand the concept.


 
Good point!.....I inserted foot all too quick!


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> I wanna know who I am talking to is all



For what it is worth, sweetness, you're talking to me.
But you might not think that a good thing :mrgreen:


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## Alex_B (Feb 19, 2007)

hmm,

I am totally lost here ...
... I do get valuable critizism on here.

I never really felt bad about what anyone said regarding my work. ok, might not always agree, but I feel treated very fair on here.

some comments are useful to me, others not, and others are just nice.

Well, I hope my comments did not put anyone off ...


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Tang,
Man, the first post I ever made, 2 years ago, was this really crap shot of a fern.  I mean, crappola.
I had this spanky new film camera, an Elan NE, and I was just so proud to post the shot.
I can't tell you how many people commented that my shot was "nice, but here is how you can make it better.".
Two years later, I'm a professional wedding photog completely booked for 2007.
"Back in the day...." as us old timers say, there was plenty of help with our bootstraps, chins ups, etc.  I'm not saying I didn't get harsh crit, but I got it with, "that's alright, but here is the better way."
That's what's missing her now.


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## Christie Photo (Feb 19, 2007)

Well, I'm gonna cash out for today, but I can't wait to get back to this tomorrow.

Now, play nice.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

repeat post.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> For what it is worth, sweetness, you're talking to me.
> But you might not think that a good thing :mrgreen:


 

OMG, is that really you?????? You are still a God to me!!!!!
Berate me master!


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Ok Hertz, while I have you for a nano second, can you help grade me on the new site that I built between a crapload of weddings, eng, and bridals.  Be honest as always.
Dang, I'm so glad to see you guys!
http://www.visionsinwhite.com/blu25/index2.php


Note:  I'm STILL wanting to learn.


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 19, 2007)

I'm sure I could manage a little light spanking.
I don't know what for, though. I follow your points exactly. And though i wouldn't have phrased it in quite the same way...
Just learn tolerance and how to filter.

*Edit* I'm ahead of you, sweetie, but... (******** I was about to post a rude tail end to that but I won't)


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> I'm sure I could manage a little light spanking.
> I don't know what for, though. I follow your points exactly. And though i wouldn't have phrased it in quite the same way...
> Just learn tolerance and how to filter.
> 
> *Edit* I'm ahead of you, sweetie, but... (******** I was about to post a rude tail end to that but I won't)


 

Hehe Hertz,
That's a scary thought.  You still intimidate me comeplety!
Thank you for the agreement on the old days, and thank you even more for the cohesive study of the new website.
SorrySorrySorry, for being such a grouch.  I need to start hiring processors.  It's making me crazy.


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## Tangerini (Feb 19, 2007)

Well I hope I'm able to learn and grow as you did; most likely not take it to a professional capacity, but, I'm all ears (eyes).


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## PNA (Feb 19, 2007)

elsaspet.....your web site is grand, very nice work. I can understand that you're booked for '07.

If I ever have a "fifth", I'll be sure to call on you.


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## elsaspet (Feb 19, 2007)

Thank you for the nice words you guys. I honestly do appreciate it very very much.
I took a ten minute break trying to decide how to better say this, and I guess this is my best revisement. It's not to glorify my current business, but to explain how I got from here to there.

This was the very first forum I ever came to, and one of the few I still come back to, not as often as I would like however, due to the current workload

I learned EVERYTHING here. I never had so much as a poloroid when I came here. Nothing. My husband bought me a film Elan, and I was just so greatful, and having fun with it. I shared on this forum, and it was great! Even though people had vastly different shooting experience, there was help and encouragement from almost everyone. It wasn't all gravy, but there was always a "here is what I would try" attached to a critique. I took it all to heart.
I learned from EVERYONE. Some more than others, but I always listened.

I come here now, and have to think to myself, what would I be doing for a living now if I had come here for help now.

Scary. I'd be working at a factory, thinking I sucked. At everything.

But Thank God, that was not the way with me. I was nurtured, graded, tested, and encouraged. And that is why I am today, a professional photog making enough money to have my husband retire to shoot with me.
And that is the way this place used to be, and should be now.
If you have a better way to do something, share it.


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi, elsaspet

I was here to learn. But after posting some pics and begging for input and receiving close to nothing, I've given up, at least for the time being. Maybe I suck so big that my pics are beyond help. I'll look for other ways to improve.

I'll post pics again when I feel I have something better. For now, I'll give some advice if I think I have something to say.

Sorry for whining.


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## Icon72 (Feb 19, 2007)

I read "Is there anyone else who wants to learn?" and my first thought was, yes, I do, I want to learn. And by the looks of it I'm not alone. This thread has 300 views since it was posted this morning.


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## eravedesigns (Feb 19, 2007)

stop complaining its a forum. Just cause people dont post there own work dosent mean they dont know what they are talking about. When i get bad comments i dont go looking to rip on their ****. its all about accepting comments and seeing if you agree with the person.


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## Big Mike (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi Cindy,  I hear what you are saying...and I think that part of the problem is just the growing pains that the forum is experiencing.  If you are not around everyday, and even if you are...is hard to know who is who...which makes it harder to know where people are comming from with their critiques.  Plus, there are members from around the world and language can sometimes be a barrier.

We have created 'The Business District'...which is a section for professionals to talk shop and compare note/shots.  I think this is where you can best get what you are looking for.  It's still a bit of a task keeping that section on-topic....but we are trying.  If you have any more suggestions...please let the mods/admins know.

I, for one...admire the heck out of your work...I almost feel that I have little to offer you...because you are so ahead of the game.

I agree with Digital Matt...


> I see a lot of people that learn a new concept, shakily, in one thread, and 5 minutes later rushing to try and explain the concept to someone else, before they have a firm grasp. It really just ends up cluttering up a thread in which a basic question can be answered easily, and correctly by someone else (probably the same person or persons that answered it in the previous thread(s).
> 
> Sometimes I think people just post for the sake of showing that they know something, rather than actually trying to help someone. I try to answer questions when I am 100% certain that my knowledge is correct, and I fully understand the concept.


Sometimes, I feel like I'm just running around this place...just trying to correct bad advice.


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## Icon72 (Feb 19, 2007)

As Mike mentioned, the forum is growing. I haven't been around all that long myself but I can say with some confidence that a couple of years ago it was even more of a personable place than it is now. The forum has over 14,000 members with about 400-500 users online at peak hours from what I've seen. I would venture to guess that a lot of the users with thousands of posts can easily grow pretty tired of trying to keep up with the critique section and share the same advice they have undoubtedly shared a hundred times before. I can't say I blame them. I think I have posted one photo in the critique section myself but that's only because I don't think I have anything that's good enough to bother putting up. That should change very soon as I will have my first DSLR in a couple of weeks. That being said, even though I've only been around a short time I can understand what you're saying.

For what it's worth, and I'm not trying to sound like a mooch or anything, you're story fascinates me. You've only been at this for two years and you are booked with weddings through all of 2007? Wow! I visited your site and happened to glance through the pricing. Obviously Texas is a little richer country than the state of Wisconsin. Just the fact that you can command that level of compensation amazes me. Good for you and congrats on your success. :thumbup:


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## terri (Feb 19, 2007)

awww, Cindy. :hug:: 

Don't forget, my sweet....you also came here with a few things that maybe aren't shared with everyone. That would include your a) naturally good eye for composition, b) voracious appetite for knowledge, c) ability to accept advice and critique without feeling you were in any way being picked on and lastly, but maybe most important of all....4) tenacity and integrity to follow through, and build upon, what you were learning. 

I'm thrilled to know you're booked for 2007, and flattered that you think I helped you. You did it, hon. :thumbup: 

The forum has exploded in growth, so we can't hope to have it be what it was a couple years back. But we _can_ hope to find more Cindys out there..... and now you're at a place where you can give something back, too. Hang onto that, for it's a wonderful thing!


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## Alex_B (Feb 20, 2007)

OK, since this appears to be an issue to be discussed among the masters, I will silence myself. 

I only hope that I myself did not contribute too much to the forum's degradation, after all I just arrived here only recently and do not know what "the old times" were like.


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## Arch (Feb 20, 2007)

Alex_B said:


> OK, since this appears to be an issue to be discussed among the masters, I will silence myself.
> 
> I only hope that I myself did not contribute too much to the forum's degradation, after all I just arrived here only recently and do not know what "the old times" were like.



no see thats unacceptable to me... none of our members no matter what skill level or experience should feel like they should quiet down just becuase a) they havent been here as long... or b) they arnt as knowledgable as some others....

Although i kinda agree with what matt and mike are saying.... in a way its TS... because after all this is a forum.... and everyone has a right to join in no matter what level they are at.

I commend those who have to go around correcting peoples mis-information, they do a great job.... and have ALOT of patience.... but id rather see this happen than newer members being too intimidated to add thier point of view.

...and Alex your advice is well informed so dont feel concearned about your activity here.


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## lostprophet (Feb 20, 2007)

I agree with Archangel, doesn't matter how long you've been here or what your level of photography is, as long as you post photos and leave the odd comment I'm happy. 

I don't care who comments on my posts as long as someone does. There is nothing worst then posting a thread and not getting a single reply.

One thing I try to do each day is to look at all the threads in the Landscape/nature forum and post a reply, even if its just to say "I like it"

If I get a comment from someone with 8000 posts or 8 posts its all good to me, I know for a fact that from the feedback I've received and from seeing other members posts I have learned a lot and my photography is getting better and better.

In my mind this forum has gone from strength to strength in the 1 year I've been here and the reason for that is that the members are great. I've been on other photography forums and just didn't feel welcome but not so on here. There are just so many great people here and they make this forum what it is. Lots of member all at different levels, beginners to Pro's and everyone wants to help and share info.


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## Digital Matt (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't mean to discourage anyone from participating.  I just think that a little bit of listening goes a long way, if you know what I mean.  Sometimes it's better to just subscribe to a thread and wait for the answer to come along, rather than to attempt to answer a question that you don't have the answer to, and hope to be corrected.  There's hardly a long wait time on here for questions to be answered.  There's plenty of great information floating around, that doesn't need to be unnecessarily complicated by incomplete or wrong information.


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

I definately feel that all levels should participate.  Absolutely.  It's often that "new eye" that can give you some really awesome advice.
And Big Mike, I learn from you ALL the time!  Your work inspires!
I'm just grouchy I guess.   I love this place!


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## LaFoto (Feb 20, 2007)

Icon72 said:


> I would venture to guess that a lot of the users with thousands of posts can easily grow pretty tired of trying to keep up with the critique section and share the same advice they have undoubtedly shared a hundred times before.


 
Well, you might be right here, Icon, and yet.... it is ok.

My nearing 19.000 posts have not come from my participating in Off-Topic games or chitchat (apart from some, of course), but I try to establish *communication* (that is my personal key-word here) with almost everyone on the forum, if I can, given I feel some sort of connection. I try to comment as much as I can, mostly so because I just KNOW (from my own feelings and emotions and suspense and whatnot any time I post a photo) how much people who go public with their work in this manner crave for a reply (or two, or many) - any sort of, preferably - of course!  - some encouragement. 

What I say, and how I comment, is not always in pointers towards "the right way". More so since I cannot really give any. I only the other day happened to browse through a DVD of my own with "Scanned Prints from April - October 2005" --- and ever so MANY of those photos of mine show ALL the flaws and faults an average photo can have :shock: . So, Elsaspet, I must admit that all I have ever learned about photography I have learned in the three years that I have been member of TPF! No kidding! So if anyone should ever think that "LaFoto" has "the knowledge" ... ha! It's all from here!

So I am far, far, far from being a) a professional and b) a photographer with THE knowledge. I have never taken any classes, whether that be high school photography classes or college courses or maybe only a photography class in an Adult Education Centre. 
_So I freely comment from the standpoint of a total amateur!_

Seems like to some I am the only person to comment at all... or to start the ball to roll at last. And nothing hurts more than a 0 posts-thread, I think. So I sometimes also hope to only make someone happy...!

But I also see what you are saying, Elsaspet.
There are some around who do seem to have picked up a camera a month ago and seem to already know it _all_. Or have read a piece of advice yesterday to pass it on today, undigested, barely chewed. But that is what a public internet forum is like, and we are in February 2007 today and need to look forward from here ... not backward to what once was. It never helps in life (in whatever you do) to wistfully look to the past, to sigh and say: "Those were the days, my friend, when everything was better". 

And another remark to you personally, Elsaspet: I admire you for building up a business in almost no time at all, and what a successful business it has become. You really, really, REALLY wanted to learn and DID learn. MUCH. ENORMOUSLY much! Wow-wow-wow!


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

You are the coolest LaFoto.  And YES, you always kept the ball rolling.  You have been a great soundingboard to sooooo many of us.  I for one totally appreciate all the time you take to try to give us all great feedback.
Hehe.  Yes, I guess I was having a "those were the golden years" moment yesterday.
I guess I just need to come around more often and get to know everyone!
Thank you for your kind words LaFoto (and Teri too).  But I can promise you that had I not come here with my crappy little fern photo, and received such tender loving crit, I would never, ever, ever, be doing photography for a living now.
Smooches!!!!!  I've missed you!


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## Christie Photo (Feb 20, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> ...had I not come here with my crappy little fern photo, and received such tender loving crit,...




Now I have to go looking for this awful image.


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## Alison (Feb 20, 2007)

Cindy, I remember that picture   I think that in any forum there are cycles and that you joined when the right people were active and able to help you. For many reasons I am no longer shooting professionally, the time away from my family being the main one. I have really enjoyed watching your work evolve over the past two years and I am so glad that you have become so deeply involved in wedding photography. I don't feel I have the same level of input that I used to, especially in regards to marketing and such because I'm not actively doing that anymore. 

TPF may not be the same as when you first joined, our membership has grown and by sheer volume it's hard to keep track of everyone. I think people are still learning though. And of course there are some who answer questions with what might be the "wrong" answer, but I don't think they do so knowingly. As with anything you have to remember the source of the information, especially on the internet. 

I am glad you came with your fern photo


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

Christie Photo said:


> Now I have to go looking for this awful image.


 

It won't be hard to find the crappy ones.  They were the first thousand or so I posted.


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

Hehe Alison, wasn't that poor fern pathetic?  LOL.  But dang, I thought it was pretty cool at the time.  I listened to the crit, reworked it, and saw that it was instantly way better.  I was like, "Wow!"  I was a believer!
I'm sorry you've stepped out of photography professionally because you are awesome, and another huge icon to me.  But you have a wonderful family so I look forward to lots of pics of them!
I've taken to heart what I've read in this thread, and I will try to quit beotching, and go in and try to learn even more, and give some back when I can.  I just started a "How'd you do that" in Portraits, and I think it would be a blast to do in all the various forums.  There is a ton of knowledge amoungst the members here.  It's just all in the delivery, eh?


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 20, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> What I say, and how I comment, is not always in pointers towards "the right way".



The only aspect of Photography that has a 'right way' and a 'wrong way' is in the Technical areas, that is exposure/processing/printing.
Virtually everything else in Photography is a matter of what works and what doesn't.
If you do something that gets you the result you want (especially if you can repeat it) and it works then it's the 'right way' as far as you are concerned. It might not be the best way, the most elegant way or the easiest way to do it - but it sure isn't the 'wrong way'!


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> The only aspect of Photography that has a 'right way' and a 'wrong way' is in the Technical areas, that is exposure/processing/printing.
> Virtually everything else in Photography is a matter of what works and what doesn't.
> If you do something that gets you the result you want (especially if you can repeat it) and it works then it's the 'right way' as far as you are concerned. It might not be the best way, the most elegant way or the easiest way to do it - but it sure isn't the 'wrong way'!


 
And this starts a whole new topic. Once you learn all the normal photo stuff, you are called upon to break it.
But you have to know the rules first, and most importantly "why".
And then just crush them.   But with a reason as to why.  It's all about understanding.


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 20, 2007)

But I've told you before - there are only three rules in Photography!
Are you referring to composition - there are no rules there, only conventions. And you will find that when you think you are breaking the rules you are, in fact, merely conforming to a convention you weren't aware of (but I won't go into all that here. I seem to remember explaining it in another thread anyway so interested people - go mine the archives).

I was referring to techniques and methods of working


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> But I've told you before - there are only three rules in Photography!
> Are you referring to composition - there are no rules there, only conventions. And you will find that when you think you are breaking the rules you are, in fact, merely conforming to a convention you weren't aware of (but I won't go into all that here. I seem to remember explaining it in another thread anyway so interested people - go mine the archives).
> 
> I was referring to techniques and methods of working


 
Hertz,
You taught me well, and I know there is no confirmation there either.  If you know a rule well enough, understand it, grasp it, then you are free to break it.
Technique and methodology is a pretty wide topic, but I'm not conventional on either.  I just want to do it differnetly, as if that's possible!


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## Alex_B (Feb 20, 2007)

Archangel said:


> ...and Alex your advice is well informed so dont feel concearned about your activity here.


 
Thanks!

But maybe my phrasing could easily be misunderstood. I wrote about falling quiet in *this thread only*. So don't worry, I will still post in other threads telling people what I think


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## elsaspet (Feb 20, 2007)

Speak up Alex!  You have much to contribute!
(On this thread too)


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## JohnMF (Feb 20, 2007)

I too think i remember your fern photograph, so maybe it was better than you think, It seems to have left an impression!  

Reading this thread reminded me of something else i read http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-internet.html

It's quite funny


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## photogoddess (Feb 22, 2007)

Cindy, FWIW I completely agree with you. :hugs: It's been way too long since I've posted any images here exactly for the reasons you mention. Problem is, it's an internet community with a revolving active membership and thus has a life of it's own. There are, as you mentioned, a group that is consistently helpful. 

Hertz - my love! Where have you been? Your input is sorely needed and it hasn't been the same around here without you.


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## Christie Photo (Feb 22, 2007)

JohnMF said:


> Reading this thread reminded me of something else i read http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-internet.html
> 
> It's quite funny



Funny!  And, just a bit scarey.  It's seems SO real!  The only thing I found missing was the obligatory DoF comments.


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## Antarctican (Feb 22, 2007)

JohnMF said:


> Reading this thread reminded me of something else i read http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-internet.html
> It's quite funny


OMG, it sure _is_ funny! Loved it!!!     And highlights in a humorous way Elsaspet's point


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## Aquarium Dreams (Feb 25, 2007)

I know I'm new, therefore I have no place commenting on this thread, yet the very fact I'm new suggests most people will disregard what I say anyway, so I figured, why not?

The problems that people are complaining about here aren't specific to this forum, or to the internet.  People just like to talk, which includes passing on unverified information they just heard the other day, as much as it includes seasoned members of a group complaining that things aren't the way they used to be.  People everywhere do these things.  Sometimes people even make comments with the intent of being helpful, but these comments turn out to not be helpful, due to miscommunication (the helper not understanding correctly what was asked) or the fact that the person asking knows more than the helper realized, and both of those things happen everyday, in any number of situations, and while it's annoying, it's understandable.  But what it sounds like is that you're asking people to not even comment, unless:

1.  They have researched the poster's skill level, by reading past posts and surveying their work and accomplishments.

2.  They have researched the skill levels of everyone else who has commented in the same way.

3.  They have researched other, more prolific forum users, to find out if anyone else might have the answer instead.

4.  They use the search option and make sure that the question has not been answered already by one of the aforementioned prolific forum users (even though the original poster might not have done this).

5.  They've been here long enough that they remember the good old days and/or they have a photography business.

Are there any other requirements for people who want to learn?

I'd like to think most adults have enough discernment to research new information, if they don't know the source well enough.  Most people have a healthy scepticism about news received from strangers, but I'd like to think that most people have enough class to say thank you to the stranger, anyway.  If a stranger compliments you on your clothes, you don't scoff and say, "Look at the way you're dressed.  What do you know about clothes?  Are you in the biz?  Have you been for many years?  This is the first time I've seen you in the mall and I've been coming here for years.  You don't know anything about clothes.  Why are you even wasting my time?  Someone who knows more about clothes can give me their opinion, and if they don't, I have friends who have been coming to this mall for years, and they all dress really well, so if I wait long enough, I can get an informed opinion.  Keep coming to the mall, and show me more of your outfits, and maybe one day, I'll take your opinion seriously."  Maybe that's what most people are really thinking, but because it's not the internet, and they have to look at the person, and see the sincerity in their face, they just smile and say, "Thank you."

It sickens me, that now every thread I read, I'm going to wonder, am I qualified to answer this person's question?  And even if I am, there are going to be alot of other people who are also qualified, so why not just leave it to them?  Why don't we all just read and learn from those few who have proven themselves over time and with their accomplishments.  Why not just make this a magazine instead of a forum?

Personally, I appreciate comments from everyone.  In forums in general, if someone has been on the forum a long time, or is a talented photographer, I appreciate that they have spent the time answering my question or acknowledging me at all, and I'm relieved that not everyone is snobbish about what's worth their time and what is not. If someone has no website or only a few posts, I'm equally happy, because to me, an opinion by anyone else is valuable, because it's an opinion other than my own.  If someone tells me something I already know or something I know is wrong, I still thank them, because their intentions were good.  I speak of forums in general, but I only signed up last month, and already I've seen a number of threads where it's clear the person who posted is looking for comments only from a select few people.  I wish those people would start their posts with a disclaimer: PLEASE DON'T BOTHER POSTING UNLESS WE'VE COMMUNICATED WITH ONE ANOTHER BEFORE.  or post a list of the users that they would accept answers or comments from.  Or better yet, start a private yahoo group as a supplement to TPF.  Here's the link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/

Now I'm going to go make 200 posts, many of which will illustrate exactly what this thread complains about, because this is a public forum and I _can_.


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## Puscas (Feb 25, 2007)

Aquarium Dreams said:


> If a stranger compliments you on your clothes, you don't scoff and say, "Look at the way you're dressed.  What do you know about clothes?  Are you in the biz?  Have you been for many years?  This is the first time I've seen you in the mall and I've been coming here for years.  You don't know anything about clothes.  Why are you even wasting my time?  Someone who knows more about clothes can give me their opinion, and if they don't, I have friends who have been coming to this mall for years, and they all dress really well, so if I wait long enough, I can get an informed opinion.  Keep coming to the mall, and show me more of your outfits, and maybe one day, I'll take your opinion seriously."



I really get your point. And this really made me laugh! (I imagined this happening in real life, and over and over again...lol...)




pascal


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 25, 2007)

Aquarium Dreams said:


> If a stranger compliments you on your clothes, you don't scoff and say, "Look at the way you're dressed.  What do you know about clothes?  Are you in the biz?  Have you been for many years?  This is the first time I've seen you in the mall and I've been coming here for years.  You don't know anything about clothes.  Why are you even wasting my time?  Someone who knows more about clothes can give me their opinion, and if they don't, I have friends who have been coming to this mall for years, and they all dress really well, so if I wait long enough, I can get an informed opinion.  Keep coming to the mall, and show me more of your outfits, and maybe one day, I'll take your opinion seriously."



But what if the same stranger comes up and tells you that your clothes make you look frumpy/old/ugly/stupid?
I think your reaction would then be justified.

People post pictures for a variety of reasons, and people who post responses do so for a similar variety of reasons. Most of these reasons are nothing to do with photography.
In an ideal world people commenting would all try to engage their brains first before saying anything but...
So the onus falls on the person posting the image in the first place and how they handle comments.
The problem with Photography is that it is very personal. The pictures you take reflect you, your likes and dislikes, your aspirations, your 'inner being'. It is therefore easy to see any criticism of your pictures as a criticism of you personally.
Try to get over it. 
If you ever go professional then the first time you show your folio to an art director and they flick through it in 30 seconds, look bored and say 'so what else have you done?' you will go home and slash your wrists.

All criticism is just personal opinion and we are all entitled to have an opinion. Be selective. Take whatever is of use and ignore that which is not.
I know it's hard to figure out which is which when you are a 'beginner' but you'll get there if you persevere.

Nothing worth doing is easy.


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## LaFoto (Feb 25, 2007)

Hertz van Rental said:


> People post pictures for a variety of reasons, and people who post responses do so for a similar variety of reasons. Most of these reasons are nothing to do with photography.


 
Anything wrong with their reason being the desire to communicate in the first place and talk about photography, or THE photo in question, or even the SUBJECTS in the photo in question, only in the second place?*



			
				Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> In an ideal world people commenting would all try to engage their brains first before saying anything but...


 
Does the desire to take the photos as the basis for a CONVERSATION on a forum like this one mean that the one who likes to just talk about "things" (that spring to mind caused by the photo in question) mean that the brains are still on "hold" only?*

(Pssst: *_->advocatus diaboli_ only)


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 25, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> Anything wrong with their reason being the desire to communicate in the first place and talk about photography, or THE photo in question, or even the SUBJECTS in the photo in question, only in the second place?


I didn't say anything was 'wrong' in the first place. I was merely pointing out that people do things for a myriad reasons and that it is always worth bearing this in mind.
Besides, all your examples are to do with photography so I am purposely going to misunderstand your point! :mrgreen: 




LaFoto said:


> Does the desire to take the photos as the basis for a CONVERSATION on a forum like this one mean that the one who likes to just talk about "things" (that spring to mind caused by the photo in question) mean that the brains are still on "hold" only?


Not at all. If someone takes a picture with the specific intent of using it as a basis for a conversation, or if someone starts a conversation using someone else's picture as a basis, it shows that there is some thought and intent there so communication is possible.
Photography is a means of communication after all.
Although I might revise my opinion if the conversation consists of nothing but the word 'cool'.




And I'm just being :bigangel:


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## Aquarium Dreams (Feb 25, 2007)

Hertz van Rental:  I agree with everything in your post.  I don't think I've stated anything differently, though perhaps I was ranting incoherently or slipped into sarcasm, which can easily be understood (I try to avoid it for that reason).  But I agree with everything you said.  What did I say that you didn't agree with?

I also wrote, "Sometimes people even make comments with the intent of being helpful, but these comments turn out to not be helpful, due to miscommunication (the helper not understanding correctly what was asked) or the fact that the person asking knows more than the helper realized, and both of those things happen everyday, in any number of situations, and while it's annoying, it's understandable."  I think that just happened between us.  I don't know what you think I meant, but I'm all for everyone posting their opinions and everyone reading to be mature enough to decide when to take them or leave them, instead of trying to enforce some kind of guidelines telling people that they shouldn't even bother commenting if they have less experience than other people or that they should only leave certain types of comments.  I would rather hear everyone's opinion and sort out what's useful and what's not at the end, than to only hear a select few opinions.  Why not just make a list of acceptable opinions and we can all just copy and paste?  (Did someone already say that?  It sounds familiar.)  I'm ranting again, I have to stop.



Hertz van Rental said:


> If you ever go professional then the first time you show your folio to an art director and they flick through it in 30 seconds, look bored and say 'so what else have you done?' you will go home and slash your wrists.



 It's funny you mentioned that, because the first time I showed my work to an art director, she offered me a one person show in her gallery, and when I heard the news, I almost passed out and cracked open my head, so yes, you could say I was in definite danger of hurting myself.:lmao:


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## Hertz van Rental (Feb 25, 2007)

Aquarium Dreams said:


> Hertz van Rental:  ...  What did I say that you didn't agree with?



Did I disagree with you? Because I don't.
I was just pointing out that though one's reaction to a compliment is to not question a person's qualifications, competence or sanity it is quite a different matter when someone gives you the opposite.
For example, you post a picture and someone says 'that's amazing'. Despite the fact that it doesn't really tell you anything useful about the picture it is impossible to feel anything for the critic other than you want to have their babies.
But if someone tells you your picture is out of focus, lacking in contrast or has a bad crop you are on that 'phone taking a contract out on them before the page has finished loading. You spent weeks getting it to look like that and then some illiterate moron who can't even spell 'camera' let alone use one has the bare cheek to... etc etc etc.



I think your AD must have had an off day (or you were very lucky). All the ones I dealt with were so jaded that if Michaelangelo had walked in they would have said 'but what have you done _recently_?'


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