# The very FIRST thing you need to think about...



## Didereaux (Mar 31, 2016)

You want to learn to be a photographer.  Spend a few minutes watching this video,  I will bet the best cup of coffee that you will agree that this was a help.   Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer.   So with that groundwork laid watch the vid.


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## jcdeboever (Mar 31, 2016)

Oh boy, I'm in trouble...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## 480sparky (Mar 31, 2016)

eer.........

Video every newbie wanting to start a photo business should watch.


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## bribrius (Mar 31, 2016)

i think a lot of photographers have been traditionally self taught tbh. Either you pick up a camera one day and figure it out or you don't.


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## 480sparky (Mar 31, 2016)

bribrius said:


> i think a lot of photographers have been traditionally self taught tbh. Either you pick up a camera one day and figure it out or you don't.



I'm still waiting for the day I figure it out.


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## Watchful (Mar 31, 2016)

bribrius said:


> i think a lot of photographers have been traditionally self taught tbh. Either you pick up a camera one day and figure it out or you don't.


That's really the only way to learn anything IMO.

So this guy is saying that what he knows and what he knows that he doesn't know are not in the part where creativity are found, and then he says 'give me money to learn to not be creative like me'. uh, huh.

So did you shoot this video and own it? If not you are supposed to post a link only to the video on the net. I think that's what the rules say.


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## table1349 (Mar 31, 2016)

480sparky said:


> eer.........
> 
> Video every newbie wanting to start a photo business should watch.


I would have given you a like, agree and a winner as well, but I could only choose one.


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## soufiej (Apr 1, 2016)

IMO ...

A smart person can know a lot about a lot of things.

An intelligent person knows how very little they actually know about most anything and how absolutely minuscule is their absolute knowledge of everything.  That person may view everything as a game of Jenga; loosen the stability of one piece and the whole begins to teeter.

A somewhat less than smart person in any one arena believes it can all be taught in a few short lessons.  They may not be "stupid" about anything, they simply do not utilize the thought process needed to see the interweaving of all things.

How many times have you begun research on a topic by entering a phrase in a search engine only to find you soon have a dozen tabs open to research topics you have found through your initial search?   And, you realize you could continue to add another dozen with ease and still not begin to really know the topic you've started to research?

If you have not been taught critical thinking  (here's a link for those of you not familiar with the term; Defining Critical Thinking ), then you likely feel you can reduce most things to a few basic ideas and those few ideas can be taught to you by a smart person within a few minutes to a few hours.

If you are not familiar with the concept of first principles, then you likely feel all things can be reduced to the tools or equipment required to allow the results you desire.

It's actually how most of us shop for "stuff".

If you have no friggin' idea what a logical fallacy is and when you've waded into one, you buy more stuff thinking that is your way around the process of learning.

It's often the way we discuss our newly acquired "stuff".



On the other hand, it is very easy to study and research and to not know enough about what you should and what you shouldn't need at any one time that you waste a lot of time reading about what has no value to your immediate result.  Self taught students of anything tend to bounce around to the next shiny thing without sufficient knowledge of or insight into the subject to know they don't need to know "that" at this time.  That, IMO, is the value of a very good lesson plan, it keeps you on track by building a solid foundation before you start on the upper floors.  

Etc. ...

It can, IMO, all be reduced to the simplification of our education systems and the marketing of the commercial product.  Too many education systems have been reduced to a result stage which bypasses teaching critical thought processes.  The teaching to the test process we find in many school systems.  The answer in search of a problem path to achievement.  All of which benefits those wishing to create absolute tests and those providing easy answers, all wishing to be judged by a set script vs thinking individuals.



Probably you've heard the phrase, "Knowledge is power".

Power does not reside in a thinking, knowledgeable society, it is a shared value.



*Commercialization teaches us it is the equipment which provides the results.  Buy this and you will be better simply by owning it.  

Possibly, you've heard or read someone say a piece of equipment "looks good".  "Looks good" and is efficient at its job are two vastly different things.  

An education system not based on critical thinking doesn't value that distinction.  

Therefore, while the op's video isn't necessarily wrong about anything it states, it preaches to the choir.  

Those most in need of the critical thought process it promotes will not be interested in the actual thought processes required to make sense of the lessons being promoted.     *


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## Didereaux (Apr 1, 2016)

soufiej said:


> ....
> 
> *Therefore, while the op's video isn't necessarily wrong about anything it states, it preaches to the choir.
> 
> Those most in need of the critical thought process it promotes will not be interested in the actual thought processes required to make sense of the lessons being promoted.     *


Your whole post would seem to fit within the criteria you list at the end.       ...and no, you do not get that cup of coffee!


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## Blind Bruce (Apr 1, 2016)

As I have told many people, I bought lots of expensive cameras and they don't take good pictures either!


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## soufiej (Apr 1, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> Your whole post would seem to fit within the criteria you list at the end.       ...and no, you do not get that cup of coffee!






That is, mostly true.  Yet, it was you who posted the original video.


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## fmw (Apr 1, 2016)

Photographic equipment is tools.  It doesn't make photographs. Photographers do.


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## Watchful (Apr 1, 2016)

Anything that can be taught can be learned by a good student without the use of a teacher, and, after all, we are all students of life.
In many cases, a teacher is a hinderence to learning what matters.


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## table1349 (Apr 1, 2016)

Watchful said:


> Anything that can be very *aught* can be learned by a good student without the use of a teacher, and, after all, we are all students of life.
> In many cases, a teacher is a hinderence to learning what matters.


Except spelling.  That requires a teacher.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 1, 2016)

Watchful said:


> Anything that can be very aught can be learned by a good student without the use of a teacher, and, after all, we are all students of life.
> In many cases, a teacher is a hinderence to learning what matters.



Except you don't know what you don't know and learning anything requires at least some entry into the field.
If you do it without any kind of teaching,  the path would be longer and the entry might never be gained.


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## Didereaux (Apr 1, 2016)

soufiej said:


> Didereaux said:
> 
> 
> > Your whole post would seem to fit within the criteria you list at the end.       ...and no, you do not get that cup of coffee!
> ...




Guess I will have to repeat myself!  "Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer."


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## The_Traveler (Apr 1, 2016)

Since sophiej has never posted a picture, it remains to be seen if she actually is a photographer.
There are others in the same situation, all hat, no cattle.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 1, 2016)

Then the ownership of the website needs to change the Terms. Last time the site was changed I read them and that's why I rarely post photos here (and if I do I go back in and remove them later). Of course I can't speak for Sophie/Soufie.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 1, 2016)

what are the terms that keep you from posting?


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## soufiej (Apr 1, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> Guess I will have to repeat myself!  "Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer."




'Scuse me! 

This was your wording in the op, _"Spend a few minutes watching this video, *I will bet the best cup of coffee that you will agree that this was a help*. Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer." 


_
My initial response had nothing to do with thinking I know it all.  Quite the contrary. 

You seem to be quite willing to welch on your offer if I do not agree the video was "a help".  To remind you of exactly what I posted, here's a quote, "*Those most in need of the critical thought process it promotes will not be interested in the actual thought processes required to make sense of the lessons being promoted."*



Did your video help me personally?  No. 

Did I "need" your video?  Not that I can tell. 

It restated what I already do comprehend and it broke no new ground for me.  I've done this "forum thing" for awhile and I know what type of person the video was discussing.   

It didn't explain how I should better my photography.  Just that there's a lot to learn about photography. 

Anyone here not already know that?

I didn't think so.

Was it made for the personal benefit of the person who made the video?  Probably.    

Did it actually help you become a better photographer?

Probably not, or you wouldn't have posted it for others to view.

It was aimed at who?  Someone who feels they can learn photography in a few hours?

No.

It was aimed at all those folks who have been asked to teach someone all the things they need to know to make what they've purchased perform to a level they cannot achieve on their own. 

*Those people doing the asking won't watch that video.   That's all I said.*

Now you wish to welch on the deal by claiming I made more of your video than I did. 

Or, claiming I made more of myself simply because you didn't care for my response?

Why not just accept the response and move on?  Why make a big deal out of this?



Do I feel I am "_qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer." _

I have never made that claim on this forum though I have responded on a few threads asking for advice.  Haven't you? 

Telling someone - anyone -  "how to be a better photographer" wasn't the reason the video was made.   Is that so difficult to understand? 



I don't get this.  You posted a video on a public forum with the expectation people would respond to the video.  But you apparently only wanted responses which agreed with your need to post the video and those which applauded you for posting it on this forum.

If that's why you posed the video, why make the bet?  Did you seriously think no one would find it less than helpful?    

You placed conditions on your bet.  Conditions that you now get to adjudicate?!

I don't often make bets, even on line when the prize is unsubstantial enough as to be nothing.  But, is it normal for the person who offers the bet to also serve as the judge of who wins the bet? 



As Traveler says, you don't even know whether I am a photographer.  The conditions of your bet require I think of myself as a photographer.  Or, is that another condition you get to change after the fact?

If you feel so, that I am a "photographer", please inform Traveler that I am indeed ... a photographer.  He has a bug under his saddle about posting photos in order to prove something to him. 



And, Traveler, this is yet another case of the more you push, the further you get from your goal.   It is precisely because of responses such as yours that I do not feel inclined to post any photos here.

Thanks all!


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## robbins.photo (Apr 1, 2016)

soufiej said:


> Didereaux said:
> 
> 
> > Guess I will have to repeat myself!  "Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer."
> ...


Ok, well I'll be honest, took me a bit to read through all that and my initial response is, would it help if I bought you a cup of coffee?



Sent from my N9518 using Tapatalk


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## Didereaux (Apr 1, 2016)

soufiej said:


> Didereaux said:
> 
> 
> > Guess I will have to repeat myself!  "Now that offer/bet does not extend to the class of 'photographers' who think they know it all already and are qualified to tell anyone how to be a photographer."
> ...





Oh for goodness sakes!  Just take your medications and take a break!  You have mental issues, I am sorry.  But high-jacking threads in a photography forum in order to illuminate your handicaps is really not cool.    Go away before Nurse Ratched finds out your missing.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 2, 2016)

soufiej said:


> As Traveler says, you don't even know whether I am a photographer. The conditions of your bet require I think of myself as a photographer. Or, is that another condition you get to change after the fact?
> If you feel so, that I am a "photographer", please inform Traveler that I am indeed ... a photographer. He has a bug under his saddle about posting photos in order to prove something to him.
> And, Traveler, this is yet another case of the more you push, the further you get from your goal. It is precisely because of responses such as yours that I do not feel inclined to post any photos here.



This site only gets better if people of all levels post pictures.
You specialize in long discourses that don't add to what the site needs.

You have all sorts of excuses, adding me as a reason is just another way to avoid showing that what you say you know has any weight.
I don't know what your real problem is, but there sure must be one.


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## soufiej (Apr 2, 2016)

robbins.photo said:


> Ok, well I'll be honest, took me a bit to read through all that and my initial response is, would it help if I bought you a cup of coffee?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my N9518 using Tapatalk




Maybe, maybe not.   

The problem IMO seems to be with the forum and the decorum of its members.  The disrespectful and immature level to which many members immediately descend is astounding.

I admit to not having the longest term of membership here but, I do remember being attacked and insulted and challenged as being unqualified to even be here on my very first participation in a thread.  

Nothing has changed from that time to now.  

A few disagreeable folks have (apparently) left to ruin some other forum for a time but the turn of this forum into personal insults remains hair trigger.  

In the many years I've sent on forums, this remains one of the most potentially unpleasant and unhelpful forums I've landed on. 

A version of this observation exists on this forum having been made by yet another forum member on a what?  a weekly basis?   



*To Didereaux and Traveler:  I have one simple question for you.  I would appreciate a simple and honest reply without any snark.

Did that video help you, in any way, become a better photographer or enlighten you in any manner regarding photography?  *


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## Overread (Apr 2, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> Then the ownership of the website needs to change the Terms. Last time the site was changed I read them and that's why I rarely post photos here (and if I do I go back in and remove them later). Of course I can't speak for Sophie/Soufie.



The TC for the forums is likely a default one and wouldn't surprise me if its default for either the software or for Forum Foundry. IF there is a specific clause that is causing you problems PLEASE either report it to a moderator/admin or mention it in the feedback section at the bottom of the site. Moderators don't set policy, but we are more than willing to take cases to the admin if users find issues that might prevent their use of the site.



soufiej said:


> In the many years I've sent on forums, this remains one of the most potentially unpleasant and unhelpful forums I've landed on.



You do realise that:
1) We have an ignore feature that lets you ignore posts from users (except mods/admin) that you dislike or have trouble with

2) You can report posts to the admin/moderators to air your concerns. You can also talk to any member of the team in private to air your concerns. 

3) Are not forced to be here and honestly if you hate or find the site as loathsome as you say I'm honestly surprised that you've either not followed options 1 and 2 above or left. 
As moderators we aim to try and keep as many people happy as we can and to provide a safe environment - we however must rely on users to give us feedback on this; without it we cannot take steps toward resolutions (should they be needed). 

Moderartors don't read everything - and we don't always interpret things the same way other uses will; thus direct feedback is critical.


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## soufiej (Apr 2, 2016)

[QUOTE="Overread, post: 3610305, member: 30094
You do realise that:
1) We have an ignore feature that lets you ignore posts from users (except mods/admin) that you dislike or have trouble with

2) You can report posts to the admin/moderators to air your concerns. You can also talk to any member of the team in private to air your concerns.

3) Are not forced to be here and honestly if you hate or find the site as loathsome as you say I'm honestly surprised that you've either not followed options 1 and 2 above or left.
As moderators we aim to try and keep as many people happy as we can and to provide a safe environment - we however must rely on users to give us feedback on this; without it we cannot take steps toward resolutions (should they be needed).

Moderartors don't read everything - and we don't always interpret things the same way other uses will; thus direct feedback is critical.[/QUOTE]



I have no "dislike" for any member.  

My personal policy on forums is to allow everyone a second, and even a third, chance until they have proven they cannot be trusted to behave as an adult.  

Am I then in some way obligated to avoid all contact with other forum members?  No, I don't think so.  There's always the chance the true PITA members  will be having a "good day" and they will behave.  

It is a public forum.  Maybe the mods should develop a policy of placing road signs on dangerous threads, eh?   That would make for a more interesting forum I'm certain.  



Do I "have problems with" any member?  Seems that's difficult to discern until someone decides they prefer to be difficult.  

Are there people here who I suspect will prefer to be difficult?  No doubt.  

They are, however, in the vast minority though they have the singular capacity to be the most disruptive.  

Where do I find the "Oh, for goodness sake, let it be!", function on the forum?  



"Concerns"?

I've had a few.

But, then again, too few to mention.



Is it something in the air on this forum?  

A lot of folks seems very disagreeable lately.  

I regard the behavior of the few as being typical of a forum.  That doesn't mean I must like their behavior.  Nor does it mean I am going to head to an admin/moderator every time it occurs. 

As a whole, however, it occurs quite often IMO.   

This is an adult forum.  The answer is for everyone to behave as adults.  Unfortunately, that appears beyond the abilities of a few.  



I'm not forced to be here?  Really?!  

I could leave?  

I never thought of that!  

What? is this the first time you've heard of this sort of behavior on this forum?  Do you always suggest to everyone who runs into a PITA member that they should simply leave the forum?  

That would result in what?  A few PITA's running the forum.  

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that you have taken that attitude.  Must be something in the water.



How about, rather than reporting everything to a mod, people just grow up and stop being a PITA to others? 



Is there something I've posted here that you find objectionable?  This thread didn't need to turn into anything other than a simple thread about a video.  

Am I responsible for what was said to me?  I don't think so.    

One forum member simply decided to be his typical PITA self.  That's too bad IMO. 

Thanks for the input.  No disrespect intended.  Just surprise.


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2016)

soufiej said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, well I'll be honest, took me a bit to read through all that and my initial response is, would it help if I bought you a cup of coffee?
> ...


easy way to fix this just tell them their opinion means chit to you, problem solved.  There IS some very knowledgeable people that could give sound advice but looking around i haven't seen anyone who is a famous photographer that deserves a big enough head to look down on you.


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## beachrat (Apr 2, 2016)

Watchful said:


> Anything that can be taught can be learned by a good student without the use of a teacher, and, after all, we are all students of life.
> In many cases, a teacher is a hinderence to learning what matters.




Well,I don't know about that.
As a primarily self taught musician,I certainly learned a ton when I began studying with a professional bassplayer that gave lessons.
I had a primary goal, that was what we worked on,and my playing and understanding of modes improved dramatically.
I started in 1974 and didn't take a lesson until 2001.
You can always learn from someone who knows how to teach.
Most internet videos are done by clowns and handjob artists.


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## Watchful (Apr 2, 2016)

I was speaking for myself, not the world. 
Stay away from youtube, it's an idiot's playground. lol


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## Overread (Apr 2, 2016)

There are bad books, videos, websites, guides, workshops, teachers, mentors etc...

If you focus on the bad that's all you'll ever see and it might mean that you overlook resources that are worth your time. 

The internet is a vast and fantastic resource if you use it right. I find that its good for networking and also for tutorials on theory on niche areas. For a more complete picture books and teachers tend to be better as they present a series of theories and concepts strung together to get an end result; whilst this is present online its less so and more focuses upon refinement or alternative methods within the overall process and workflow. 


I will also say that yes you can self learn a lot - BUT - self learning is a skill unto itself. IT is a skill not everyone has and learning a hobby or skill is hard if the method by which you learn (self learning) is also one that you have to learn at the same time. It doubles the learning requirements and is hard because a lot of self learning falls into the pitfall of "You don't know what it is that you don't know" thus its very easy to overlook things simple because you don't know they exist or because mentions of them are underplayed in early resources you visit/find.

A good teacher can take you further; nearly always. Especially because they can correct many issues at the time before you hit the shutter; they can help you not learn bad habits before you learn them and then have to unlearn them to progress. 

Of course there are those who have learned things in almost total isolation and have done fantastic things; they are even more a rarity - yes its possible, but no not everyone will be able to do it as they might not have the skills to achieve that end result. That's no failing of a person just like not being able to self learn is a failing; itsj ust how we are all different.


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## Watchful (Apr 2, 2016)

Overread said:


> There are bad books, videos, websites, guides, workshops, teachers, mentors etc...
> 
> If you focus on the bad that's all you'll ever see and it might mean that you overlook resources that are worth your time.
> 
> ...


I agree that not everyone knows how to learn or even understands how and when the brain creates new synapses allowing new learning to take place.
You must first learn how to learn.


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## table1349 (Apr 2, 2016)

Mark Twain was not only a great writer and humorist, he was a great student of people and human nature.  I won't try to express what he expressed so well.


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## beachrat (Apr 2, 2016)

Watchful said:


> *I was speaking for myself*, not the world.
> Stay away from youtube, it's an idiot's playground. lol


Oh.
I must have gotten confused when you used the word,"we" in your prior post.


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## Watchful (Apr 2, 2016)

The we was referring to mankind's thirst for knowledge, expressed by me an individual. Wow. Lol


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## chuasam (Apr 4, 2016)

Can I have a cup of Kopi Luwak?


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## robbins.photo (Apr 4, 2016)

chuasam said:


> Can I have a cup of Kopi Luwak?



Coffee made from poop?  Oh ya, you can have all of that we have on hand.  Enjoy.  Knock yourself out.  All yours.


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## chuasam (Apr 4, 2016)

Watchful said:


> I was speaking for myself, not the world.
> Stay away from youtube, it's an idiot's playground. lol


Creative Live is pretty good if you have the patience. Lynda is also pretty useful. I would rather see photos with soul and creativity than just another horrid cliche.


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## Didereaux (Apr 4, 2016)

chuasam said:


> Can I have a cup of Kopi Luwak?




Sure, but you'll have to pay for your own cat pee....cause that ain't coffee!


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## chuasam (Apr 4, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > Can I have a cup of Kopi Luwak?
> ...


Civet Cats aren't actually cats and they smell eerily nice. A civet cat smells vaguely like vanilla and screw pine. 

Classes are very useful to learn more complicated technical stuff, you can be challenged in school but you can't really learn creativity. 

I've been dating a professional photographer for 8 years now. She's been a great resource in terms of intelligent critique and assisting me when I am stuck.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 4, 2016)

chuasam said:


> Civet Cats aren't actually cats and they smell eerily nice. A civet cat smells vaguely like vanilla and screw pine.



Which, curiously enough, still does not convince me that I would want to filter hot water through their excrement and then consume it.   Just one man's humble opinion of course.


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## chuasam (Apr 4, 2016)

robbins.photo said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > Civet Cats aren't actually cats and they smell eerily nice. A civet cat smells vaguely like vanilla and screw pine.
> ...


Silly gorilla, you wash the coffee beans from the poop first.


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## Didereaux (Apr 4, 2016)

I honestly fail to see any connection with drinking something brewed from something covered with civet cat crap and photography.   Chu  start a new thread somewhere , but lets try to salvage what is left of this thread which was meant for beginner photographers and not scatological quality comparisons.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 4, 2016)

chuasam said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > chuasam said:
> ...


Again, could just be me, but the last thing I want to think about when I grab a cup of coffee is: "Wow, I hope the guy who washes the poop off the beans wasn't having an off day"

Sent from my N9518 using Tapatalk


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## Watchful (Apr 4, 2016)

robbins.photo said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...


Then think about the laborers in Brazil and Columbia taking a quick squat in the fields to relieve themselves, wiping with the first 2 fingers of their right hand and going back to picking.
Would you like a refill?


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## table1349 (Apr 4, 2016)

Oh I think this thread became Kopi Luwak beans a couple pages back.  

I am curious, have you tried Black Ivory Coffee yet?


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## chuasam (Apr 4, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> I honestly fail to see any connection with drinking something brewed from something covered with civet cat crap and photography.   Chu  start a new thread somewhere , but lets try to salvage what is left of this thread which was meant for beginner photographers and not scatological quality comparisons.


Well you were offering free coffee of our choice.


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## Tim Tucker (Apr 5, 2016)

Back on topic... (I drink tea and whiskey) 

It's not what I would say is the first thing you need to think about. The very first thing you need to do in the visual arts, or photography, is *look and see*.

The main place that many fall is by believing that their vision is absolute and that others see what they present as they've presented it. This isn't always the case.

With accurate and honest observation you should easily see the difference between the images you take and the ones you try to emulate, and this can drive you quest for knowledge or learning. But it's totally useless unless you learn how to see things clearly and accurately.

To give you an example of how you don't always see thing accurately here's one of many of the "maths problems" floating around facebook:






You may think it's a maths test, but actually it's only a test of observational accuracy. How many of you noticed the double flower the first time you looked? The trick relies on lazy vision, it relies on you glancing briefly and making assumptions. Loosing the tendency to do this is the most valuable and first lesson an aspiring photographer should learn.


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## ClickAddict (Apr 5, 2016)

Tim Tucker said:


> Back on topic... (I drink tea and whiskey)
> 
> It's not what I would say is the first thing you need to think about. The very first thing you need to do in the visual arts, or photography, is *look and see*.
> 
> ...




Another trick in this problem is, since the last flower has 4 petals and not 5, is it really the same value as the ones in the previous equations.  (Therefore still an unknown).  In which case the answer is.... "Not enough information."


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## robbins.photo (Apr 5, 2016)

ClickAddict said:


> Another trick in this problem is, since the last flower has 4 petals and not 5, is it really the same value as the ones in the previous equations.  (Therefore still an unknown).  In which case the answer is.... "Not enough information."



Huh.. ok, see the answer I was going to go with was "salad".


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## table1349 (Apr 5, 2016)

I was thinking potpourri.  The ladies love that stuff since it is a way to save dead flowers.


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