# Photography through social media



## bryntintin (Feb 25, 2014)

How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?


----------



## table1349 (Feb 25, 2014)

What class is this research for?


----------



## MOREGONE (Feb 25, 2014)

Short answer : Yes
Long answer : Yes it has


----------



## bryntintin (Feb 25, 2014)

This is intended for a communication research assignment.


----------



## limr (Feb 25, 2014)

Does your professor allow informal interviews on internet forums? Are you planning on citing this conversation properly? Do you have other credible, scholarly research materials (no, I don't mean Wikipedia or ask.com)? If the answer to any of these questions is, "No" then my answer to your question is, "Do your own research."


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

limr said:


> If the answer to any of these questions is, "No" then my answer to your question is, "Do your own research."


 
That's kind of a silly thing to say.

How is he _not _doing his own research? Research consists, in part, of asking questions. If someone wants to know how something has affected photographers, what better place is there to ask for input than a website frequented by photographers?


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > If the answer to any of these questions is, "No" then my answer to your question is, "Do your own research."
> ...



I would not qualify "writing down your thesis and saying 'ok go,' possibly even pasting as it was given to you in the assignment" as "asking insightful research questions" :roll:
If he had shown any evidence of having thought about it for more than 2 minutes prior to coming to the forum, I might consider responding.


Also, as somebody who actually runs human subjects research, including surveys, for its own sake and gets paid for it, etc., there are ethical rules for this sort of thing in a formalized research context.
Partially including a doctrine of "include as few subjects as needed." Which means that if a question has already been answered thoroughly in the literature, it is considered unethical to spend research participants' time to re-answer it simply because you couldn't be bothered to look it up.
You cannot get approval to give a survey from your institutional review board unless you make a compelling case that it needs to be done, given current knowledge in the area.
The OP probably has not agreed to such rules or gone through that training, and I am NOT suggesting he is being "unethical" at all. I'm just saying that if you want to justify it as "this is what real research is at its core!" you should know that it really isn't, actually.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



I don't see that anywhere.

It's amazing to me that people here seem to be so full of themselves that they believe they shouldn't have to be bothered with someone coming here and asking a question. Either answer it or don't. Making assumptions on what the assignment consists of is stupid.

You should stop doing it...


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> I don't see that anywhere.


Hence the word "possibly."
And the onus is on him to show that this isn't the case anyway, IMO, as common sense would dictate that in 9/10 cases, it probably is.


----------



## Greiver (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...


It's actually amazing how many people on this forum are so full of themselves that prefer to try (and fail) to make a witty, sarcastic, demeaning response to someone asking a question rather than answer it like a mature adult.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> It's actually amazing how many people on this forum are so full of themselves that prefer to try (and fail) to make a witty, sarcastic, demeaning response to someone asking a question rather than answer it like a mature adult.


Helping people _potentially _cheat on their homework no questions asked == "being a mature adult?"
I would call that being an irresponsible enabler, personally. And I believe that calling them out on it is in fact the more mature thing to do, to signal to others who might not have considered that possibility so they can make a more informed decision to wait or not wait for more info if they so choose.

He may not be cheating on his homework. But it smells strongly of that as somebody who has taught a lot of students. If he can explain the situation otherwise, then I'd be happy to respond in detail.


----------



## Designer (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm guessing that Bryn is a girl, and she is not actually at the graduate level, but more like high school.


----------



## Braineack (Feb 26, 2014)

bryntintin said:


> How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?



given ****ty momtographers myriad of ****ty customers.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> more like high school.


I am assuming that too.


----------



## table1349 (Feb 26, 2014)

Well if you had done your research you would see that in all likelyhood this is for a collage level course:  From a simple google search:



Yahoo Canada Answers - How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?
How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?
Bryn asked 20 hrs ago - 3 days left to answer
Was originally asked on Yahoo Answers United States


This is intended as a college research paper. No personal information will be disclosed.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

Undergrads are just less healthy, more likely to be drunk high schoolers =P


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

I'll take a stab at it, based on my own experience.

Social media (Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram, etc) certainly has affected photographers, both professional and amateur. For the purposes of this, I'll discuss, primarily, Facebook, as everyone and their mother has a Facebook account. Hell, I have a friend in Miami whose dog has a Facebook page.

I've been a professional photographer for about ten years. When I started, Facebook wasn't even really on the radar. Craig's List was around, but was still pretty unknown as a marketing avenue. Back then, I got jobs by word of mouth and by advertising in a local free paper. I wasn't getting rich, but I was working. Word of mouth got me far more jobs than advertising.

You'll often hear/see acronyms and phrases such as "MWC" (Mom With Camera), "Momtographer" and the like. Such phrases are usually belched up by people who are bitter about how photography, and the ability to practice it at a higher level, has permeated the landscape. That said, it's also a suggestion, and not necessarily an inaccurate one, that the photography being practiced today is done so at a much lower proficiency level than in the past. Let's face it, given the right conditions, Auto mode will give you a pretty good image. The "MWC's" don't need to know the science behind taking a photo, they just press a shutter release. That upsets some people, and those people whine a lot.

The introduction of consumer grade DSLR's pretty much coincided with the introduction of social media sites. Now, an MWC could hang out a shingle and call herself a "pro". She may not understand photography, and may not even understand business. What she does understand, though, is that she can now take pretty good photos because she's got a DSLR and, if she doesn't try to charge too much, people will pay her. You'll encounter a lot of people who who'll bemoan this as the impending death of photography as a viable career, but it's not; not at all. Someone who truly is a pro, and who's honed their craft, really has no need to worry about those people. If they do, they shouldn't.

Now, this isn't to suggest that pros can't have Facebook pages. In fact, most pros I know do have them. They use them to supplement their photography websites. Completely disregarding Facebook as a potential revenue stream would be stupid. Likewise, relying on it as a sole revenue stream would _also _be stupid. The latter, though, is what the MWC's tend to do.

So what's the impact of this? Well, it could be great, or it could be minimal. It depends on the client. If someone sends me a Facebook message asking what I would charge for a portrait and, once they get my response, says "But So-And-So will do it for "X" amount", well, that probably wasn't my client to begin with. Even if there was no other alternative, they probably wouldn't want to pay what I would charge. 

And that's fine.

Social media has sparked some form of class warfare among photographers, and I really don't understand why. Yes, it's impacted the "business" of photography, but if it affects any one person's business, that person either needs to step up his game or move onto another career path. It's that simple. Oddly, though, most will take solace bitching about it on the internet, and they'll do little more...


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> If he can explain the situation otherwise, then I'd be happy to respond in detail.



I've got a ten spot that says he loses little sleep over you not responding.

The question was pretty straightforward. How has it affected photography as a career path. If the student is told to research this, what's so wrong about going to a photography forum and asking?

Seriously, some of you people get your man-panties in a bunch over the most trivial crap...


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> You cannot get approval to give a survey from your institutional review board unless you make a compelling case that it needs to be done, given current knowledge in the area. The OP probably has not agreed to such rules or gone through that training, and I am NOT suggesting he is being "unethical" at all. I'm just saying that if you want to justify it as "this is what real research is at its core!" you should know that it really isn't, actually.



Jesus H. Christ, get over yourself.

The OP asked a question. Answer it or don't. Going off on some ridiculous tangent about the ethics of research is stupid...


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve, there are two issues here:

1) As a person who has assigned and graded a lot of undergrad research papers, this sort of thing is usually not okay as a valid source of information for a paper. In many cases, it could be considered outright cheating, if the institution has a general assumption that you're supposed to do your own work in certain parts of the job of organizing and writing a paper (some do some don't). And even if it's allowed, this creates very Very tricky citation problems. Frankly I've never seen any undergrads who understand references well enough to properly handle information from a forum discussion without being very likely to plagiarize somewhere along the way, intentionally or not. I'm not sure I could either. At the very best, even if they do cite properly and it is allowed, it's still a crappy source, worse than Wikipedia, and wouldn't fetch a very good grade, unless they go do all the same research they could have done on their own anyway for all the same information in other places... In which case, what's the point?

2) YOU brought up that "research involves asking questions [of people]." The stuff about professional research ethics is not meant to apply to the student here. The laws and IRBs and government agencies generally don't apply to students since usually they aren't publishing their results in the public discourse (if they are, the rules do apply though). The reason to bring it up is to simply informing you that your blanket statement about research is *not in general correct*. Professional research in fact goes out of its way to ask questions of the absolute *minimum *number of people possible, and never run surveys on anything that can be answered with a review of existing literature. If you were to want to do this same thing as a professor, you probably wouldn't get permission, and if you did it anyway you could be fired and banned from legally doing your research even privately. Potentially even face criminal fraud sanctions if you used federal grant money to do it.

Sorry if you find that to be "ridiculous," but despite your opinion, it is a fact that the academic community takes such things very seriously, and that doing research for formally sharing results (or being trained to as a student) is considered to follow different rules than just asking questions out of personal curiosity for personal purposes.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavin, most of us here reside in the real world; the world where technology has made the world a much smaller place, and information far more available.

Since your panties are in a twist over this, and considering that asking a question on an internet forum is, apparently, the "academic community" equivalent of murder, how would _you_ suggest the OP go about obtaining the information?

And, do you even allow for the very real possibility that the teacher wants the students to ask actual working photographers how they think social media has impacted photography as a career choice?

No, you probably don't do that. 'Cause that could make sense...


----------



## Derrel (Feb 26, 2014)

Anybody got a URL for a non-copyrighted *popcorn icon*? I reallllly want to include one here, even if it might get me in Dutch with the IRB...hell they can kick me outta' school for all I care...then I can get back to drinking beer and chasing tail...


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> how would _you suggest the OP go about obtaining the information?_


Books? Journal articles? In them, people who have already done the relevant primary field research (which has certainly happened with social media and photography coexisting for over a decade now, probably up to date within a year from today) write about what people already told them, and you can reference what they found. Or they ARE the primary source, but unlike random forum users, their credentials and background and everything are easily checked and on file and often have already gone through screening by editors and reviewers. Random forum users may not even have careers at all in photography but comment on it anyway, interpreting the question as "I made money one time from this one shoot, so I count" but you might not know which people are which.

Published sources--especially peer reviewed journal articles--are also much more likely to have meaningful information about the entire population due to controlled, systematic sampling methods and knowing how to craft proper surveys, and having been reviewed on their statistical skills and conclusions. Versus anecdotal information of comparatively pretty limited worth.

I would also suggest that they use facts and figures or interviews or books from people related to the question other than photographers, which you can't get on a forum as easily, like press releases from major companies regarding features of their equipment they are basing on social media's presence, or solid data relevant somehow to the impact of facebook/instagram on photography sales, etc.



> And, do you even allow for the very real possibility that the teacher wants the students to ask actual working photographers how they think social media has impacted photography as a career choice?


Asked (by you) already, and answered:



			
				GavJenks said:
			
		

> Hence the word "possibly."
> And the onus is on him to show that this isn't the case anyway, IMO, as common sense would dictate that in 9/10 cases, it probably is.


That would be one example of the OP being in the 1/10 cases where it's fine, and I would be happy to help out.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Wow.

So, he should go back and reference the facts and figures from research conducted by others, and reference the conclusions drawn by someone else, instead of asking a question on an internet forum.

Freakin' _wow_.

I'm sure next we'll see you calling for the banishment of all threads in which people discuss the pitfalls of Facebook here on TPF, considering the fact that you believe such information to be anecdotal and worthless.

Asking a question here is going to get responses from people who actually work as photographers. I don't see where some book written by someone else is going to give the OP a more pertinent and up to date insight into how social media affects photography as a career path.

The guy asked a simple question, and you went right into the middle of Doucheland with it...


----------



## bryntintin (Feb 26, 2014)

Part of my research is conducting surveys like this one in order to get various opinions from photographers.  Your responses are not me cheating as my data collection pertains to exactly that: your responses.  If you don't like my question it is completely fine, don't respond.  But I am interested in hearing your positions of how social media has affected your career paths and work.
And by the way, I'm not a high school student.  I'm in my mid 20s. 
thank you


----------



## bryntintin (Feb 26, 2014)

And I'm a guy.  No worries Bryn's a uni-sex name.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> So, he should go back and reference the facts and figures from research conducted by others, and reference the conclusions drawn by someone else, instead of asking a question on an internet forum.


For an academic research paper for a class? Um yes. Absolutely. This is basic stuff. You might do BOTH in some cases, but the former should take precedence.
Professionally reviewed and controlled systematic research > random opinion of a dude on the internet you don't know annything about.
By like... an order of magnitude or two.



> I'm sure next we'll see you calling for the banishment of all threads in which people discuss the pitfalls of Facebook here on TPF, considering the fact that you believe such information to be anecdotal and worthless.


I said COMPARATIVELY worth [pause] less (<-- two words, not "worthless")
And they are! If people on forum discussions took 15 hours to write up a quality academic style research article for every post, we would all know WAY the hell more and know it WAY the hell more confidently than by reading anecdotal accounts.

It's just that nobody has the time or inclination to do that for a hobby forum.




> I don't see where some book written by someone else is going to give the OP a more pertinent and up to date insight into how social media affects photography as a career path.


I explained the difference between the sources and why one is more reliable in quite a bit of detail. You not acknowledging them is not the same thing as there not being differences.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> Part of my research is conducting surveys like this one in order to get various opinions from photographers. Your responses are not me cheating as my data collection pertains to exactly that: your responses. If you don't like my question it is completely fine, don't respond. But I am interested in hearing your positions of how social media has affected your career paths and work.
> And by the way, I'm not a high school student. I'm in my mid 20s.
> thank you


Alright then:

1) It affects expected turnaround times from clients. They are used to seeing shared images in like, 10 minutes of an event happening.
2) It affects a lot of technical details about how I edit images, knowing that they are more likely to be displayed in a 400x800 pixel box than in an 8x10 wall print.
3) Especially instagram I believe has significantly affected the tastes of image consumers (style and quality level) due to how it mandates certain aspect ratios and encourages a limited range and style of auto filters.
4) It obviously hugely affects advertising one's services. Serving as both the main social connection to acquaintances for many people and as a platform for directly displaying a portfolio (often in addition to or as a portal to a gallery website), and giving a cheap and easy alternative to things like direct mail, which people are more likely to sign up for ("liking" your page) than they are to give you an address or email.
5) It makes photo theft an easier proposition and pressures a lot of photographers to use watermarks and/or to resize their online images smaller in defense.

I personally don't think any of this is a particularly huge influence on photography as a business, though. It's more like just a format change you have to roll along with to survive than a "game changer" in itself.  In comparison to the affordability of quality DSLRs and the availability of decent camera phones, in particular, its influence is minimal IMO.




And still: even if this is your own primary research that you're assigned to do or choose to do, I suggest that you would be much better off with controlled, proper sampling and methodologies. If you're doing this for anything more serious than just "ho hum assignment requires it" or "I'm sort of curious." Opinions of people here =/= "typical professional opinions." The population of people on an internet forum is different than the mean of the population of pro photographers, and being able to see other people's answers before responding is heavily biasing, amongst various other problems.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

bryntintin said:


> Part of my research is conducting surveys like this one in order to get various opinions from photographers.  Your responses are not me cheating as my data collection pertains to exactly that: your responses.  If you don't like my question it is completely fine, don't respond.  But I am interested in hearing your positions of how social media has affected your career paths and work.
> And by the way, I'm not a high school student.  I'm in my mid 20s.
> thank you



Some people are just incapable of letting something slide. They don't know how to answer a question so, instead, they'll badger the person asking the question in an effort flex some non-existent intellect in an effort to appear smart.

I'm interested to know more about the responses you're getting, specifically where you're getting them from. Are you posing this question on social networking sites, as well? I imagine you'd get much different responses there than here...


----------



## table1349 (Feb 26, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Anybody got a URL for a non-copyrighted *popcorn icon*? I reallllly want to include one here, even if it might get me in Dutch with the IRB...hell they can kick me outta' school for all I care...then I can get back to drinking beer and chasing tail...


What's wrong with the Photoforum popcorn icon?


----------



## Designer (Feb 26, 2014)

bryntintin said:


> "How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?"
> 
> Part of my research is conducting surveys like this one in order to get various opinions from photographers.



Assuming you get some poignant responses, how will the responses aid in doing your research?  IMO, they would be little more than anecdotes, superficially related to your research topic.  

If it seems that some of us are piling on, it is because we see this kind of question nearly every week around here or something very similar.  And since we know this to be a forum of individuals from a wide variety of backgrounds, we also realize that even factoring for responses only from professionals, you are still not going to get anything but anecdotes.

Good luck with your research.


----------



## bryntintin (Feb 26, 2014)

I've thought about posting to social media sites but I figured I'd get more relevant feedback with better photographers on this forum.  I'm still waiting but thank you for your feedback.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> And still: even if this is your own primary research that you're assigned to do or choose to do, _*I suggest*_ that you would be much better off with controlled, proper sampling and methodologies. If you're doing this for anything more serious than just "ho hum assignment requires it" or "I'm sort of curious." Opinions of people here =/= "typical professional opinions." The population of people on an internet forum is different than the mean of the population of pro photographers, and being able to see other people's answers before responding is heavily biasing, amongst various other problems.



I think it's funny that the above paragraph comes from someone who said "random  opinion of _*a dude on the internet you don't know annything about*_."

I was unaware that irony possessed the requisite properties to be quite so thick...


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

bryntintin said:


> I've thought about posting to social media sites but I figured I'd get more relevant feedback with better photographers on this forum.  I'm still waiting but thank you for your feedback.



Well, seeing you're looking at the "career path" of photography, you might want to consider that many photographers on sites like Facebook actually do consider photography to be a career for them, regardless whether or not it really is...


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

There's nothing ironic or contradictory about saying "I suggest X. But you shouldn't treat suggestions of strangers, including myself, as gospel."
And no, he shouldn't blindly. (Although OP: If you would like to know more about my credentials as a researcher and/or have more in depth discussion about research designs and methodologies, by all means PM me)
Go look up any thread on TPF about legal advice ever, and you will see half a dozen people saying exactly that.

Also that paragraph is almost verbatim what you wrote immediately after me :roll:


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> Go look up any thread on TPF about legal advice ever, and you will see half a dozen people saying exactly that.



And when we're talking about a legal issue, you'll have a point.

People like you are funny. Instead of offering a simple answer to a simple question, you'll type out post after post telling why the OP's "methodologies" are incorrect. 

As it turns out, he was interested in what photographers would say. Photographers hang out on photography forums; not a bad place to ask his question...


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> Instead of offering a simple answer to a simple question


I did.



> As it turns out, he was interested in what photographers would say. Photographers hang out on photography forums; not a bad place to ask his question...


Depends if you want to know what "just any old photographers, even if all one biased type" have to say, or if you want to know what PHOTOGRAPHERS have to say--as a well sampled, representative sample of the entire population.
The vast majority of the time, what people want to know things about is the well sampled, representative population. And that's not even close to what he is measuring.

OP: If it's for a class and they told you to do this and you don't really care all that much, then fine whatever.
If it's an issue you really care about and want actual truth about the community's thoughts, then a lot of things about your methods need to change.


Currently, it's like saying "Oh I wonder what the culinary community thinks about XYZ?" and then only asking chefs in Red Lobsters.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> I did.



This is your first response in this thread. On what planet would this be considered "A simple answer to a simple question"?



> I would not qualify "writing down your thesis and saying 'ok go,'  possibly even pasting as it was given to you in the assignment" as  "asking insightful research questions" :roll:
> If he had shown any evidence of having thought about it for more than 2  minutes prior to coming to the forum, I might consider responding.
> 
> 
> ...






> Depends if you want to know what "just any old photographers, even if all one biased type" have to say, or if you want to know what PHOTOGRAPHERS have to say--as a well sampled, representative sample of the entire population.



All you know is that he asked his question here. You had no clue as to where else he may have asked his question...



> The vast majority of the time, what people want to know things about is the well sampled, representative population. And that's not even close to what he is measuring.



Again, the guy asked a question. You were more interested in trying to appear intelligent than simply offering a response. 

You failed...


----------



## Derrel (Feb 26, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > Part of my research is conducting surveys like this one in order to get various opinions from photographers. Your responses are not me cheating as my data collection pertains to exactly that: your responses. If you don't like my question it is completely fine, don't respond. But I am interested in hearing your positions of how social media has affected your career paths and work.
> > And by the way, I'm not a high school student. I'm in my mid 20s.
> > thank you
> 
> ...



OMG Gav--you've decided to enable the OP's horrible, awful, academically reprehensible,irresponsible, on-line internet 'research'??? For shame! For shame! ;-) And you've done this awful enabling in the form of statistically dubious, unreliable, anecdotal B.S. too? Tsk,tsk,tsk! lol...JK/ ;-)


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve, I can't provide any productive discussion with you if you don't notice like half of the posts in the thread...



> OMG Gav--you've decided to enable the OP's horrible, awful, academically reprehensible,irresponsible, on-line internet 'research'??? For shame! For shame!
> 
> 
> 
> And you've done this awful enabling in the form of statistically dubious, unreliable, anecdotal B.S. too? Tsk,tsk,tsk! lol...JK/


My answer to his question is indeed a *not *very useful anecdote.  But I promised that I would answer the question if he explained it as okay within the parameters of the assignment, and I was simply following through on my word. Notice the disclaimer at the bottom...


----------



## Overread (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve - Gave - one warning take the private discussion between you to private messages.


----------



## table1349 (Feb 26, 2014)

Overread said:


> Steve - Gave - one warning take the private discussion between you to private messages.







:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :smileys::smileys::smileys:


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Overread said:


> Steve - Gave - one warning take the private discussion between you to private messages.



No need...


----------



## limr (Feb 26, 2014)

limr said:


> Does your professor allow informal interviews on internet forums? Are you planning on citing this conversation properly? Do you have other credible, scholarly research materials (no, I don't mean Wikipedia or ask.com)? If the answer to any of these questions is, "No" then my answer to your question is, "Do your own research."





Steve5D said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > If the answer to any of these questions is, "No" then my answer to your question is, "Do your own research."
> ...



A closer look at my post: 



> Does your professor allow *INFORMAL INTERVIEWS ON INTERNET FORUMS?*



If the answer to this is, "No," then it is inappropriate for him to be including TPF in his research.



> Are you planning on *CITING THIS INFORMATION PROPERLY*?



If the answer is, "No," then the OP would be guilty of plagiarism and would face consequences ranging from a simple warning to a failure and being reported to his university for academic dishonesty.



> Do you have other *CREDIBLE, SCHOLARLY RESEARCH MATERIALS* (no, I don't mean Wikipedia or ask.com)



If the answer is, "No," then he will have an underdeveloped, anecdotal research paper, and anecdotal evidence alone is an incredibly feeble leg to stand on. 

Like it or not, that's the way it is in academia. 

So, if the answer to *any of these questions* is "No," then answering his original question would either a) violate his professor's course policy, b) violate school policy on academic dishonesty, or c) facilitate crappy research methods. I do not want to be part of any of those situations.

If the answer is "Yes," to all three and this is merely one tool he is using to gain material for his project, then answer away.

For the record, if one of my students had come here asking a question like that, nine times out of ten, I'd find it as plagiarized material in their work and I would subsequently fail them for that assignment. If he's the one out of ten, then that's great. But based on *my professional experience *(because I know it's important to be a professional), on first glance, it looked fishy.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 26, 2014)

Wow.

I really do get a kick out of some people, acting as if there's some sacred tenet to be adhered to when conducting research. Instead of just answering the question or, God forbid, not posting at all, some feel the need to go off on some unrelated tangent.

Seriously, you could've saved a lot of time by simply posting "I'm not able to answer the question". Because, honestly, I'm bettin' the OP doesn't give a rat's ass about what you think constitutes proper research.

Overread, no need for the same warning with limr. I'm done with her, too...


----------



## limr (Feb 26, 2014)

It's like talking to a brick wall.



> Overread, no need for the same warning with limr. I'm done with her, too...



Please let that be forever and ever.


----------



## Greiver (Feb 26, 2014)

Unless the teacher said a certain method can't be used for the research (for example asking the question on this forum) then that's that, he can do what he wants to get the info he needs, who are you guys to decide what counts as actual research? 

If he isn't supposed to be doing this, and he is anyway, he's the only one that needs to worry about it. So like Steve said, just post a simple answer, or none at all. Trying to make a post just to try and be a snarky know-it-all will just make you look foolish and you're probably not the photographers who he should be asking if he wants anything useful.


----------



## Greiver (Feb 26, 2014)

limr said:


> It's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I'm sure the feeling is mutual.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> If he isn't supposed to be doing this, and he is anyway, he's the only one that needs to worry about it.


So if a guy runs by in prison clothes and asks you and a crowd of people which way to the Mexican border, you're gonna everyone to politely point him in the right direction, because "if he's breaking the law, he's the only one that needs to be worrying about it?" Yeah, maybe 5% of the time, it's just a dude who really likes orange jumpsuit fashion, and really needs to get to a hot date in Mexico on time. But that's not what's gonna drive my behavior initially until more information is gathered.



> who are you guys


Teachers. Who tend to look out for one another, even strangers far away.
For example, many teachers help out by uploading student papers to public databases voluntarily so that other teachers in other states can run suspicious assignments against them to check for plagiarizing. Same concept.



However, most students in my experience are scared/shamed away at the drop of a hat and never come back if they're actually dishonest. I have no trouble believing the OP when he says this is not against the rules of his assignment, since he has stuck around and clarified.


----------



## terri (Feb 26, 2014)

Okay guys, enough already.   It's clear from the posts who has a working knowledge of the "Academic integrity" sections on college syllabuses and who doesn't.        Let's just leave it at that.   

But no more personal snipes at one another.    It's not answering the OP in any useful way.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Feb 26, 2014)

I haven't done a research paper in a long time but in my experience at college level there are certain standards that are expected to be used. Without any explanation along with the original question there didn't seem to be any way at first to know what this was for. 

As is, the question posed seems rather broad, maybe making this more specific would better enable site users to respond. Providing a lengthy explanation does seem somewhat like helping to write someone's paper - an entire essay could probably be written in response to the question.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Feb 26, 2014)

Basically sums up my feelings about this thread so far.

To answer the OP's question, in my own experience, it has. It's allowed me to reach a whole new audience and have a place to put my work where it can be ignored by billions of people.


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > If he isn't supposed to be doing this, and he is anyway, he's the only one that needs to worry about it.
> 
> 
> So if a guy runs by in prison clothes and asks you and a crowd of people which way to the Mexican border, you're gonna everyone to politely point him in the right direction, because "if he's breaking the law, he's the only one that needs to be worrying about it?" Yeah, maybe 5% of the time, it's just a dude who really likes orange jumpsuit fashion, and really needs to get to a hot date in Mexico on time. But that's not what's gonna drive my behavior initially until more information is gathered.
> ...



How does someone with so much knowledge ask a question like this?

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ens-suggestions-given-current-collection.html


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 27, 2014)

> How does someone with so much knowledge ask a question like this?
> 
> Portrait Lens suggestions, given current collection


I'm a teacher and researcher of psychology, not photography.


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > How does someone with so much knowledge ask a question like this?
> >
> > Portrait Lens suggestions, given current collection
> 
> ...



That explains a ton.   :roll:


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 27, 2014)

Cognitive psychology, mind you. Eye tracking and reaction times and manipulating pretty shapes and objects and rotating things in your mind and all that kind of jazz.  Not sitting on a couch analyzing people.
We are SLIGHTLY less crazy as a group than them


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> Cognitive psychology, mind you. Eye tracking and reaction times and manipulating pretty shapes and objects and rotating things in your mind and all that kind of jazz.  Not sitting on a couch analyzing people. We are SLIGHTLY less crazy as a group than them



Forgive me if my sarcasm didn't come through properly. I wasn't that interested.


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 27, 2014)

Well somebody is having a grumpy day!
I suggest reading this adorable article about baby bat orphans swaddled in tiny blankets. Seriously, that goes for anybody still reading this thread. It is *impossible *not to smile at it:
Orphan Baby Bats Are Hanging In! | Earth in Transition
:hug::


----------



## jenko (Feb 27, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> I suggest reading this adorable article about baby bat orphans swaddled in tiny blankets. Seriously, that goes for anybody still reading this thread. It is *impossible *not to smile at it:
> Orphan Baby Bats Are Hanging In! | Earth in Transition
> :hug::



They are pretty cute!


----------



## striving4mediocrity (Feb 27, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Gavin, most of us here reside in the real world; the world where technology has made the world a much smaller place, and information far more available.
> 
> Since your panties are in a twist over this, and considering that asking a question on an internet forum is, apparently, the "academic community" equivalent of murder, how would _you_ suggest the OP go about obtaining the information?
> 
> ...



I'm with you, Steve. TPF is the PERFECT place to do research! You have  access to a diverse group of professional and amateur photographers.  Seems like people think it's not real research if it came from the  internet... yee gawds, people get uptight on here.


----------



## striving4mediocrity (Feb 27, 2014)

Hi, I write and take photos for the largest student-run media organization in the world. Our scope is hyper-specific to one large university but social media allows us to dust the competition. At football games I post pictures 5-6 times a game. My pictures aren't as good as some of the pros covering the same game but they are up FIRST--this translates into maaany more shares. I can't compete with pros and their thousands and thousands of dollars worth of equipment but when I beat them to the punch I don't need to compete. A picture I recently took at a school event was just the top post on reddit a few weeks ago (uncredited  booo.) Social media has given us a mindset that many pro photographers would probably look down on but it has been a key part of our success. We strive for quality but live for speed.


----------



## Designer (Feb 27, 2014)

Considering that some well-known people earn their living taking polls, most people think that is the equivalent of "research".  

O.K., this community is a fair representation of a group of photography enthusiasts, some of which are professionals.  Furthermore, we never hesitate to offer our opinions on just about everything that pops up around here.  

All it would take for someone to gain insight as to the inner workings of the photographic community is to simply read this forum for about a month or a year.  You'd get a mountain of opinions on everything that is not specifically banned, but then what?  What would you do with that pile of opinion?  Could one analyze it in a scientific way to discern such things as our preference of social media sites, and how photographers decide on a career path?  Could unattributed anecdotes substitute for good research?  If anybody claims to be able to do that, I think they are deluding themselves and attempting to fool others.

If the OP's assignment is any indication of the health of the typical college curriculum, then we're in deep doo-doo.


----------



## limr (Feb 27, 2014)

Designer said:


> Considering that some well-known people earn their living taking polls, most people think that is the equivalent of "research".
> 
> O.K., this community is a fair representation of a group of photography enthusiasts, some of which are professionals.  Furthermore, we never hesitate to offer our opinions on just about everything that pops up around here.
> 
> ...



I heart you. :heart:


----------



## vintagesnaps (Feb 27, 2014)

Let's hope this assignment isn't indicative of the typical college course; I don't know if this effort will get a good or passing grade but that's for the OP to figure out. 

I don't think it's using the internet so much as how you'd use it in researching a paper. For example you don't have to go to a museum like the Getty to see their collection and research it and cite what you researched since it's available online. This seems open ended and I'd probably be reading the paper and wondering where did you get this information? (yes my field is in education but in birth to three child development - thank goodness!).

Striving4mediocrity I can't say you're exactly making me feel like colleges aren't in a certain amount of doodie - I wouldn't expect that method to necessarily continue to work because in my area at least it's gotten fairly standard for media outlets to have photos on their site before or shortly after a game's done. As time goes on if they can get good photos during a game will they continue to accept mediocre ones? 

Of course colleges always seem to have had a certain amount of their own self initiated doodie, such as giving you more info. for a grad class about parking than about the course (just make sure you get a *red* parking tag...).  

Thanks Eric for getting me looking at the link to that thread that I could have lived without reading! lol - although to be fair it seems like some research was done and it was more asking for opinions from anyone who might have one of those lenses.

Are we far enough off track now??

So now that I've already spent time on this thread my response would be that social media seems to have helped give many people with cameras the often misguided idea that they are photographers - in time I imagine they may not end up making that much money at it or run into problems with clients or discover to be successful it takes learning and developing skills etc. and they'll eventually move on to something else. Social media can be useful for example to look at an art center's website for info. about a call to artists or upcoming exhibits and then look at the social media page for updates.


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

I have to disagree with one thing you said Vintage. Where you said "misguided idea that they are photographers." I absolutely agree with you on statement you make with that, but Striving made a point that sold me on the method. He's the FIRST one to get the photos in. After reading all the behind the scenes type articles on the Olympics, I'm finding that is exactly what that business is going to. Be the first one to get your images out there and you draw the majority of the interest. The Olympic shooters are among the best in the industry, but they claimed the same thing at the olympics. "get your photo up first"

As the business takes a turn towards the future it seems to be more true than not, speed is becoming the priority and photography skill secondary. I argue that Striving is on the right track. He's dialed in on getting his story out there. He can raise the level of his photography later. 


It kind of stings a little doesn't it? lol.


----------



## tecboy (Feb 27, 2014)

Just wondering, are a photographer?  Have you talked to a college professor that teaches photography?


----------



## Gavjenks (Feb 27, 2014)

> As the business takes a turn towards the future it seems to be more true than not, speed is becoming the priority and photography skill secondary. I argue that Striving is on the right track. He's dialed in on getting his story out there. He can raise the level of his photography later.


It's always been important to get your image out first.  How is this significantly different than two news photographers in the 1960's racing back to their dark rooms and rushing to develop their prints, etc. before the editor of their papers draw the deadline for the day?
Dilly dallying around and fussing about art has always been a disadvantage in journalism.

"F/8 and be there" etc


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

tecboy said:


> Just wondering, are a photographer?  Have you talked to a college professor that teaches photography?



Was this reply to me? If so, yes, and I'm a little past the point in my life where a college professor is a good sounding board.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Feb 27, 2014)

Sure there's competition to get the photo first, but I think the expectation is that the photos be good and they want 'em fast. I participated in a webinar that was conducted by a photo editor of a major sports publication and the one piece of advice that stuck in my head was - don't f it up. They expect results. From what I've read at least one major publication has had their photographers turn in media cards directly from their cameras because they wanted to see what they were getting in camera. 

Whatever you do if your pictures aren't good how much demand will there be for them? I got an opportunity because the right person saw my photos - if they weren't good enough they could just have easily found someone else. 

If nothing else we seem to have given the OP plenty of material - not necessarily of any use however. lol


----------



## tecboy (Feb 27, 2014)

EIngerson said:


> tecboy said:
> 
> 
> > Just wondering, are a photographer?  Have you talked to a college professor that teaches photography?
> ...



Opps, I'm talking to op, not you, sorry pal.


----------



## EIngerson (Feb 27, 2014)

tecboy said:


> Opps, I'm talking to op, not you, sorry pal.


  No worries. I wasn't sure. I'm a little upset you made me out myself as far as age brackets though. Lol


----------



## striving4mediocrity (Feb 27, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Striving4mediocrity I can't say you're exactly making me feel like colleges aren't in a certain amount of doodie - I wouldn't expect that method to necessarily continue to work because in my area at least it's gotten fairly standard for media outlets to have photos on their site before or shortly after a game's done. As time goes on if they can get good photos during a game will they continue to accept mediocre ones?



Our media organization went from four kids in a college dorm to having  50,000 twitter followers in five years (which is pretty good considering  40,000 people go to our school.)We are the go-to example for "new-age"  media by the NYT, USA Today and HuffPo. I think our method is proven.  And, as ridiculous as it sounds on a forum of pro photographers, the vast majority of people  really don't care that much about quality. If the photogs pics aren't up  in 20 mins after something big happened, a cell phone pic is going up  and that will get 5,000 retweets. Quickness over quality. Obviously this mentality doesn't work for every org but for the little guys (under 75k twitter followers) it works fine. This kid's  research topic is interesting. Social media is definitely changing the  game and so I shared my experience.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I'm not even a staff photographer. I am a writer who also takes pictures because that's what modern media demands. I was talking to an AP photographer this weekend and he said he was the opposite: a photographer turned writer. Media orgs don't want one or the other, they want ~500 words AND a photo. Look at the Chicago-Sun Times! They fired their entire full-time photo staff. It's not certainly not dead but photojournalism is not at all what it used to be, in large part due to social media.


----------



## striving4mediocrity (Feb 27, 2014)

Gavjenks said:


> > As the business takes a turn towards the future it seems to be more true than not, speed is becoming the priority and photography skill secondary. I argue that Striving is on the right track. He's dialed in on getting his story out there. He can raise the level of his photography later.
> 
> 
> It's always been important to get your image out first.  How is this significantly different than two news photographers in the 1960's racing back to their dark rooms and rushing to develop their prints, etc. before the editor of their papers draw the deadline for the day?
> ...



I think it's significantly different because, rather than beating a midnight deadline or whatever it was, you are beating cell phone pics which can be up in 5, 10, 15 minutes. The deadline is "now."


----------



## tecboy (Feb 28, 2014)

bryntintin said:


> How has social media influenced and carved the career paths of photographers?



I have no idea how social media influenced me and carved my career path as a photographer. Don't forget to put that in your research paper.


----------



## vintagesnaps (Feb 28, 2014)

That's true that there are media outlets now who want people who can both write and take photos - but that seems to be due to staff cuts and financial struggles - the Sun-Times cut their entire photography staff because they were not doing well financially.

I don't think having lots of followers is necessarily beneficial unless it's leading to opportunities (for the photographer anyway; it might help website owners who profit from ads etc.). Having photos go 'out there' somewhere without a photo credit isn't to a photographer's benefit - who's going to pay for a photographer's work if they already have the photos for free, and/or don't know who took the picture? I think a cell phone picture is often acceptable today because a media outlet doesn't have to pay for user submitted images or amateur bloggers etc., but if it can get people looking it can increase numbers and help get sponsors and I guess that's how it is in a slowly recovering economy, they'll take what they can get cheap or for free and use that (and post it on their social media sites).

It's faster these days but journalists always were rushing to beat a deadline - Weegee had a darkroom in the trunk of his car, the Turofsky brothers in Toronto covering hockey were known to hop over the boards onto the ice to get a picture. It's obviously quicker to record and post an image than it was (or is) to run paper thru an enlarger and expose and print it. 

_Now_ does the OP have enough material??


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 1, 2014)

striving4mediocrity said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Gavin, most of us here reside in the real world; the world where technology has made the world a much smaller place, and information far more available.
> ...



I'm not sure an informal internet poll on one site would hold up in the Institutional Review Board or the peer review process in a university setting.


----------



## Steve5D (Mar 2, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> I'm not sure an informal internet poll on one site would hold up in the Institutional Review Board or the peer review process in a university setting.



If you could point out where the OP said this is the only place he went looking for input, I'd love to see it...


----------



## table1349 (Mar 2, 2014)

Yeah, he asked the same question on Yahoo answers & Prijom. Apparently he has got a total of 1 whole answer between the two.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure an informal internet poll on one site would hold up in the Institutional Review Board or the peer review process in a university setting.
> ...




Read the post I quoted, please.

I wasn't responding to the OP


----------



## tecboy (Mar 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure an informal internet poll on one site would hold up in the Institutional Review Board or the peer review process in a university setting.
> ...



You keep arguing, and you still have not answer the op question.


----------



## tecboy (Mar 2, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> I'll take a stab at it, based on my own experience.
> 
> Social media (Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram, etc) certainly has affected photographers, both professional and amateur. For the purposes of this, I'll discuss, primarily, Facebook, as everyone and their mother has a Facebook account. Hell, I have a friend in Miami whose dog has a Facebook page.
> 
> ...



Oh yea, I just read that but still vague.


----------



## Designer (Mar 2, 2014)

ASFAIK, Steve5D is the only professional who actually answered the OP's question.  Which brings up another point; by asking one question, he received one answer.  Without knowing how many responses he got on the Yahoo site, I might come to the conclusion that he is not getting very many responses.  So the next thing to wonder is; what other types of research is he doing, and where?


----------



## Steve5D (Mar 2, 2014)

tecboy said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...





tecboy said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I'll take a stab at it, based on my own experience.
> ...



Vague?? What would be considered an in depth reply in your head?


----------



## Steve5D (Mar 2, 2014)

Designer said:


> ASFAIK, Steve5D is the only professional who actually answered the OP's question.  Which brings up another point; by asking one question, he received one answer.  Without knowing how many responses he got on the Yahoo site, I might come to the conclusion that he is not getting very many responses.  So the next thing to wonder is; what other types of research is he doing, and where?



He could've gotten plenty of answers, but too many people are hung up on the manner in which he's conducting his research that they feel the need to fluff their feathers and slip into holier-than-thou mode. 

Doing that's just stupid, and the only people it impresses are other juveniles trying to fluff _their _feathers.

There's no reason not to answer the question...


----------



## limr (Mar 2, 2014)

Dear lord, someone please kill this thread.


----------



## tecboy (Mar 2, 2014)

The point is the op is asking photographers to answer his question without references and citings.  Maybe, in next few years, he will publish a book with a title,"Photography through social media." And make tons of money.  You will receive no credit for that.  That is not the way to do research.  

If you take a college course, you understand what I'm talking about.


----------



## Overread (Mar 2, 2014)

Ok I think that's enough going in circles for one thread


----------

