# Giving and Receiving C&C



## Gaerek (Feb 3, 2010)

When I first started posting here, if someone posted a photo for C&C, you could usually, within the first 2 or 3 replies get some honest and direct feedback on your photo. A trend I've seen lately, as highlighted by some recent threads (that I will not mention here) is saying "Good job!" or "Nice Shot!" to what can be called mediocre, or even bad photographs. The justification to this is usually one of two things:

1) "I'm not really experienced, and cannot give good feedback, but I like the shot!"
2) "I don't want to hurt the feelings of a new photographer with negative feedback!"

Although these all seem like legitimate excuses for poor C&C, which, by the way stands for Comments & *Critique* (emphasis intended), they really aren't. Let me address each of these individually.

1) We were all new. We were all inexperienced. We all, at one time, would have trouble giving good feedback on a shot. Of the two, this one is probably the most legitimate. I personally have no problem with this excuse. I believe in order to become a better photographer yourself, you need to be able to look at someone elses work and give honest feedback. If the extent of your C&C is, Im not very experienced so I dont know if I can help you get better, but I like your shot, then so be it! There is a caveat to this. If this is the only C&C you are giving, you are doing a disservice to your fellow photographers. Just as photographers photos should get progressively better the more they shoot, your C&C should be progressively better the more you post. Learn as much about the technical and compositional aspects of photography as possible, then apply that when giving C&C.

2) I've actually seen this excuse before, and of the two, this one makes my blood boil. Let's say Jim (a fictional Jim) goes to the Doctors office because he's feeling sick. The Doctor checks Jim out and realizes that Jim has a week left to live. Jim says, "So Doc, what's wrong with me?" (Jim is basically asking for C&C on his health). The Doctor answers, "Jim, you're as fit as a fiddle, and there's nothing wrong with you." (In essence, the Doctor is giving Jim bad C&C) Jim leaves the Doctor's office in a great mood, and very happy, even though he doesn't know it, he will die in a week. When a collegue asks the Doctor why he didn't tell the truth, the Doctor just says, "I didn't want to hurt Jim's feelings by telling him he was going to die."

It's a great thing, to make people happy. Unfortunately, if it's at the expense of helping them become a better photographer, you are hurting them in the long run, and may frustrate them out of this great hobby. Telling someone they took a good photo for the simple sake that it will make them feel good doesn't let them grow. If you want them to be a better photographer, and want them to be happier as a photographer in the future, then you need to give honest, direct feedback. Do you need to be snarky or rude? No, but just because someone gives nothing but negative feedback doesn't mean it's bad feedback and shouldn't be listened to.

I thank all of the people who gave me direct and honest feedback when I was first beginning. Did I get my feelings hurt? Sometimes. Did I take things personally? At first, yep. Did I eventually realize that these people were only trying to help me, and that they weren't attacking me as a person? Yes, of course. 

One thing I continually hear is people saying that this is a beginners forum, and there are going to be a lot of bad shots. Because of this, people should be nicer. Unfortunately, this is a classic straw man. No one here has ever denied that. No one (that I know of) has told someone to post better pictures in the Beginners forum. The problem is people getting defensive about their photo being critiqued honestly, and not applying what people have told them they should do. Most of the time when even the most rude and abrasive posters (and you know who you are ) give critique to a new photographer for the first time, its actually pretty good, and they arent rude. They only get that way after its obvious this poster isnt listening to the feedback hes given. Here's an example of the problem, as I've observed it.

1) New user posts pictures. He thinks they're great and he'll get lots of praise.
2) Veteran photographer/poster replies and gives honest and direct C&C about the flaws of the shot, and how it can be made better.
3) New user gets defensive and says that those flaws pointed out by the veteran were intentional, and that critique on those isnt valid.
4) Veteran posts again stating that even if the flaws he pointed out earlier were intentional, the photo, because of those flaws, intentional or not, still isn't good.
5) Goody two shoes poster, who isn't very experienced, and just wants to make everyone happy chimes in with something along the lines of, "Don't let the Internet bullies get to you. You had a great shot for a beginner, and don't let anyone tell you different!"
6) New user replies to goody two shoes with, Thanks for the kind words, I knew they were good shots, I appreciate your C&C.
7) New user continues to post new threads, with new photos, without listening to good feedback, and without improvement.
8) Veterans, who are tired of trying to help new user out, quit replying to his threads, and new user starts to only receive "Good shot!" and "Nice Work! I like your photo!" without ever improving.

  Please dont insult my intelligence and say this hasnt happened, because it does and has happened. Ive seen it as recent as this last weekend. Let me end this thread with a few tips for giving and receiving C&C.

  Giving C&C
  1) Point out flaws in photo, while explaining how to go about fixing flaws
  2) If theres something you like, mention it
3) There's no need to be rude, or snarky, if someone isn't listening, just stop trying to help them

  Pretty simple and straightforward.

  Receiving C&C
  1) Dont take it personally! People are trying to help you and negative (but constructive!) C&C isnt a reflection on you as a person, just you as a beginning and learning photographer
  2) The people giving C&C were in your shoes before, and its comments like what theyre giving that will make you better. Dont alienate them simply because you perceive what they are saying as rude, or abrasive.
  3) Ask for clarification if you arent sure what they are talking about
4) Remember that emotion is difficult to convey on the Internet. Something may come out as rude, but was never intentioned that way. Give the benefit of the doubt!
  5) Thank them (or click the Thank button) for the time they spent help YOU become a better photographer

  Please, I encourage everyone who reads this to just think about it. Maybe you dont agree, but thats ok, youre allowed to not agree. I just want this to be a place of learning and growing as photographers, not a place where we sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya telling each other how great our mediocrity is.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 3, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## Chris Stegner (Feb 3, 2010)

Gaerek, You have some great points here! (not kissing up just to make you happy either ).

I guess I'm not as serious as some here. If I had to rate myself, I'd say I'm a decent photog... not a beginner... but not as good as many here. So I'm about in the middle, both as a photog and as a member. I see some on here all the time, that's good, lots of activity, lots of "usual suspects". I see some that are rarely here, some new, some that show up every now and then just to get feedback... I suppose that's cool as well.

What I'm getting at (in my bad writing way of communicating) is that I come here and very much enjoy myself. I post images for feedback... good, bad, or indifferent, it doesn't matter to me. I learn TONS from the feedback. All the feedback, not just some. What I learn depends on the feedback of course, but I do learn from it.

As for my feedback to others, I try to be nice as you said. But being nice doesn't include bull crapping people. And if I do have a problem with an image I try to give a solution. It's only my solution, but it's a solution. 

I guess I should just delete this reply and go on with it as is... I love it here. Don't make it by as often as I'd like, but what the hell, I like it when I do.

Are we taking all this to serious? Or is it me? Must be me!


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## Gaerek (Feb 3, 2010)

Chris Stegner said:


> Gaerek, You have some great points here! (not kissing up just to make you happy either ).
> 
> I guess I'm not as serious as some here. If I had to rate myself, I'd say I'm a decent photog... not a beginner... but not as good as many here. So I'm about in the middle, both as a photog and as a member. I see some on here all the time, that's good, lots of activity, lots of "usual suspects". I see some that are rarely here, some new, some that show up every now and then just to get feedback... I suppose that's cool as well.
> 
> ...



That's the attitude people should be taking with this. And, I would say most of the newer members who actively post and continue to post, have this attitude. There are some, however, who are either new posters who can't take constructive criticism, or who think someones feelings are what make them a good photographer, and this was directed at those people.

Keep posting, keep listening, keep improving.


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## dearlybeloved (Feb 3, 2010)

awesome


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## bigtwinky (Feb 3, 2010)

Great posts and you hit the nail on the head many times.

I can only speak about myself, but its one of the reasons I stopped giving critique and comments on photos.  I still lurk and random post, but if people were to give creative, honest and to the point feedback, this forum could turn around and be something great.

I guess the topic of good CC comes round every once in a while.  Probably the forum life cycle.  Bunch of pros and good commentors leave CC.  Community turns into something different, pros and good commentors leave the forum.  After a bit, people realise there is a lack of good or even interesting CC.  Someone makes a post about lack of CC to try and spark the community.  Others pick up the reigns and start giving good CC until they get fed up and leave.

The emergence of the PACT was one of these initial attempts at sparking CC (amongst other things on the forums, but lets not get into that please).  

Good on you for giving this a go...


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## mdith4him (Feb 3, 2010)

Nice post!  I'm a newbie here and haven't had a chance to post anything for C&C yet, but hopefully will in the next week or so.  I've read a lot of the C&C threads, though, to try to start noticing what people comment on and what I should be thinking about when I take pictures.  

I'm a 1st grade teacher and when I was in college, my profs told us that when talking to parents about their child, you should always "sandwich" negative comments or news with positive comments.  Just like some people here think they've taken a great picture, some parents think their kid is the best thing since sliced bread.  When talking to a parent, if I tell them all these negative things about their kid, their first response (usually) will be defense.  Parents like to know good stuff about their kids, just like photographers here like to know some good stuff (along with the bad stuff) about their pictures.  

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is perhaps if people made sure to include at least one positive and sincere comment per C&C post, it might make the photographer a little more receptive to the harsher critiques.  Just like with my school kids, sometimes I have to dig deep to find that positive comment!  But the effort is always worth it.  Just my 2 cents :sillysmi:


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## fokker (Feb 3, 2010)

Good points, it's just a pity that the noobs, who really need to read this before posting their pictures for c&c, won't read it and will continue to get upset at the 'internet meanies' who don't like their works of art. I haven't been here that long but I try to give good honest c&c whenever I actually have something worthwhile to say, but it often goes unacknowledged, or worse, results in highly defensive personal attacks with the OP going as far as trawling my flickr page looking for bad examples of my own work to try and bring me down with (that's actually happened to me twice on here in the space of about 4 months).

Edit: Above poster may partly disprove my first statement there...


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## erhard (Feb 3, 2010)

I have been on and off photo forums for a good number of years now and in the early days I used to give C&C as well as ask for it, but pretty much given up on that for the negative reasons mentioned by Gaerek.

These days I very rarely do so, unless the photo in question has a personal interest to me or is so different and unusual that I am compelled to give advise.


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## Gaerek (Feb 3, 2010)

@bigtwinky

I was getting to the point of just not giving C&C anymore. I was tired of coming across a "Need C&C" thread, seeing 3 or 4 ok images, and seeing 10 replies about how great those shots were. At that point, it wasn't worth commenting on.

I think you're right about the life cycle thing. I think good C&C was beginning on the downswing when I first started here, then it hit a low, the Pact came out and went back up, and we've hit the low again. Speaking of the pact, I always supported it, because I liked the premise, and what was trying to be done with it, but it always came off as arrogant. I think it also gave some people an excuse to really be jerks to others and simply reply, "Well, you should read the pact then!"

@mdith4him

Post away! Be prepared for direct and honest C&C. If you realize that people are simply trying to help, and you don't take it personally, you'll be amazed at the kind of photos you'll be taking in no time. 

As far as the positive/negative sandwich thing, I've heard about that too, in managerial courses I've taken. I think it has a time and a place. Here could certainly be the place. The big thing I was commenting on was the fact that people will give nothing but praise for mediocrity. And that doesn't help anyone. Give praise where it's deserved, give critique where it's deserved.

@fokker

Fortunately, this thread is still on the first page, so hopefully people will read it. Once it's on page 2 and beyond, however, that's when people won't read it anymore. I've linked this thread in my sig, replacing my link to the Pact. I would think that if anyone else agrees with what I've said to link to it also. Then hopefully it won't die too quickly and might actually help some people out.


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## Gaerek (Feb 3, 2010)

erhard said:


> I have been on and off photo forums for a good number of years now and in the early days I used to give C&C as well as ask for it, but pretty much given up on that for the negative reasons mentioned by Gaerek.
> 
> These days I very rarely do so, unless the photo in question has a personal interest to me or is so different and unusual that I am compelled to give advise.



And unfortunately, that's what it has come to with a lot of good photographers. This post is my humble attempt to prevent anymore from not giving C&C. If this doesn't work, I can honestly say my days of giving C&C in the Beginners Forum will be over.


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## mdith4him (Feb 3, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> The big thing I was commenting on was the fact that people will give nothing but praise for mediocrity. And that doesn't help anyone. Give praise where it's deserved, give critique where it's deserved.



I agree that nothing but praise isn't helpful at all, unless you're just looking for an ego boost.  But of all the photos I've seen on here so far (which isn't a ton or anything, but I've spent awhile browsing), even the bad ones have something going for them.  Maybe the lighting and composition is way off, but they chose an interesting subject.  Maybe it's under/over exposed, but the angle at which they chose to take the picture was creative.  You would have to have a seriously awful photo to not be able to pull at least _one_ good thing from it.

I do really like your ideas and hope that when I'm able to post some of my photos I get honest C&C.  I fully expect that my first attempts will not be mind-blowing new levels of the art!  I'm here because I want to be better; not because I'm trying to impress someone.


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## Gaerek (Feb 3, 2010)

mdith4him said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > The big thing I was commenting on was the fact that people will give nothing but praise for mediocrity. And that doesn't help anyone. Give praise where it's deserved, give critique where it's deserved.
> ...



This is something I've thought about, now and in the past. There are times when there is such a glaring error, that it's very difficult for me to find anything else that I can give positive feedback on. Take for example a grossly over-exposed shot. It might have great composition, the focus might be spot on, everything else might be perfect, but because the highlights are blown, and everything else is washed out, it's extremely difficult for me to look past that. About the best I can do is, "The photo's very over-exposed. Not sure what could cause that. Check your exposure compensation, and make sure you're not in manual (unless it was intended)."

I guess from my point of view, the rest of the shot doesn't really matter because that flaw is so encompassing, that there really is no hope for the shot. Having said that, I always try to look for something positive to comment on. I don't always find it, however. Thank you very much for your point of view.


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## themedicine (Feb 3, 2010)

I appreciate your post here gaerek! I honestly do try to give honest feedback on as many critiques as I can. I feel I have a very reasonable way of doing so too. I start with good things, go into the things that should be worked on, and then finish off by saying something good again. Kind of like management does at an office job (read "the office" or "office space" type management). I hope I'm not a goody two shoes type figure in your original post, but if I am, so be it. I actually think most everyone on this forum most of the time does a decent job doing so. Its threads like yesterday's though that get me a little upset myself, when people no longer seem to want to help, but only want to beat in their point with a baseball bat. 
But again, I think you are dead on as far as how C&C should be done. Thanks!


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## Layspeed (Feb 3, 2010)

Nicely put Gaerek :thumbup:  I haven't been around long enough to know what the "PACT" is, but what you said here makes (common) sense.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 5, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## redonyx (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree entirely. I come from the world of competitive public speaking where the C&C makes or breaks the speaker. I've had more than one whitewash both as a speaker and as a photographer and apart from stroking my ego, they do nothing for me.

I think this should be made a sticky thread since it is a good reference for new and experienced members alike.


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## hower610 (Feb 5, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> When I first started posting here, if someone posted a photo for C&C, you could usually, within the first 2 or 3 replies get some honest and direct feedback on your photo. A trend I've seen lately, as highlighted by some recent threads (that I will not mention here) is saying "Good job!" or "Nice Shot!" to what can be called mediocre, or even bad photographs. The justification to this is usually one of two things...



I agree 100% with what you are saying. With that said, I have seen several threads where somebody, usually somebody new or less experienced posts, looking for C&C and usually the "experienced"/"professional" members of this group come across arrogant and rude. In my honest opinion this slows/deters newer members, like myself from posting pictures that they take. If newer members post and keep getting the rude and arrogant replies, chances are they will never improve. I do not mean to offend anybody, this is just my opinion.


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## manaheim (Feb 5, 2010)

It's fascinating to see how cyclical a big internet community like this can be.  I swear someone should write a thesis on this or something.

Do a search and look for "The Pact".  It's ... very similar in many respects ... and by no means was it the first attempt at this sort of discussion.

Quite interesting.


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## Gaerek (Feb 5, 2010)

hower610 said:


> I agree 100% with what you are saying. With that said, I have seen several threads where somebody, usually somebody new or less experienced posts, looking for C&C and usually the "experienced"/"professional" members of this group come across arrogant and rude. In my honest opinion this slows/deters newer members, like myself from posting pictures that they take. If newer members post and keep getting the rude and arrogant replies, chances are they will never improve. I do not mean to offend anybody, this is just my opinion.



Now, I know what you're saying, and I understand what you mean, but from what I've seen, in most of these circumstances, the thread you are seeing isn't the first where the 'arrogant' experienced member has tried to help the person. There's very few, as in, I can probably count on 2 fingers, members who are rude and arrogant to a beginner on their first post for C&C. Usually what happens is, they posted earlier, were given suggestions, and the next time they post, they ignored what they were told, usually using creativity as an excuse.

I could give you about half a dozen examples of this in the last month alone, but it's not my wish to single out individual members. I could give you 3 or 4 member names of people, just off the top of my head, of people who continually post for C&C, get defensive when they're given improvements, and keep posting the same mistakes over and over again. Again, I won't single anyone out, but just go through some of the requests for C&C over the last month or so, and you'll see what I'm talking about.



			
				manaheim said:
			
		

> It's fascinating to see how cyclical a big internet community like this can be. I swear someone should write a thesis on this or something.
> 
> Do a search and look for "The Pact". It's ... very similar in many respects ... and by no means was it the first attempt at this sort of discussion.
> 
> Quite interesting.



The Pact has been mentioned in this thread. I haven't even been here a year, and I've seen this cycle a couple of times (this has also been mentioned). So maybe this will only help for a little while. Maybe it won't help at all. I've been getting frustrated with the type of C&C people have been giving, and expecting here lately. This was my little attempt to make this a better place for photographers to actually learn how to be photographers, rather than a place to praise the equivalent of little Johnny's crayon stick figure drawing on the refrigerator door.


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 5, 2010)

This thread should be required reading.


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## SrBiscuit (Feb 5, 2010)

agreed.
well put...everyone.


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## ilovemy50d (Feb 5, 2010)

Two thumbs up


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## camz (Feb 6, 2010)

That's what is unfortunate part of having multiple skill levels in a community.  Innaccurate CC hurts the novice even more as they are not capable of weeding out the advice that will help them towards where they need to go.  One has to stay in the forum quite a bit and get to know each of the members a little bit more in order to see where they're CC is coming from and it took me a few months to get there. 

Gaerek it's a good thing that you posted this as a reminder for the new faces around the community.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

Interesting thread Gaerek but I see the problem as a bit more complicated. C&C is an art in itself and can take as long to learn as shooting photos and it needs to be learned under the guidance of a more experienced person or persons. I believe it can be done here by learning to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing hot air.

But that is not easy either when you're new to the medium. Not to mention that we have members who are more technical than artistic and others who are more artistic than technical and the two can clash.

Frankly, the two biggest problems I see that you didn't mention are the newbies who have just learned about a particular rule and think it should always apply. For example, I post a photo with a centered subject and it works just fine but Mr. Newbies has just learned about the rule of 3rds so he will tell me to use the RoT...

The second one is people who have made some serious progress in one or two areas of photo and get a lot of thumbs up. But then they post a bad photo and they just can't take it when it is pointed out to them that it is not good because they've gotten the big head.

As it has been pointed out, the people who could most benefit from this thread are the least likely to read it.

In the meantime, I just C&C and not worry too much about it. But, I do avoid some people who I know can't take reality or are not interested in it. Also, and it is not the main reason I don't post images, I would not want to subject myself to C&C here by people who don't know what they are talking about. And please, don't anybody get me wrong, I am not saying that nobody here knows what they are talking about, just that the percentage of people who do is way smaller than that of people who don't.


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## Gaerek (Feb 6, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Interesting thread Gaerek but I see the problem as a bit more complicated. C&C is an art in itself and can take as long to learn as shooting photos and it needs to be learned under the guidance of a more experienced person or persons. I believe it can be done here by learning to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing hot air.
> 
> But that is not easy either when you're new to the medium. Not to mention that we have members who are more technical than artistic and others who are more artistic than technical and the two can clash.
> 
> ...


 
I've thought about a lot of that also. I know it's a pretty complicated problem, but I figured it was worth a shot at distilling it down. I completely agree about the C&C being an art in and of itself, and the fact that some people are more artistic, and others are more technical (like myself). That's part of what makes a forum like this a great place to potentially learn a lot. The problem occurs when you have people who think that C&C is a code word for praise. If I give my dog a treat everytime it poops on the floor, what do you think that will lead to?

Now, I'm not saying that newbies are like dogs or anything like that, but the psycology of it is basically the same. If you give positive reinforcement to a behavior, that behavior will tend to be repeated more often. That's really what you can distill my original post to. People are positively reinforcing bad photographic behavior. Whether it's to a brand new newbie, a newbie who's learning, or whatever, it doesn't matter. If you don't have anything to say to help the person improve a shot, that's fine, but make absolutely certain you aren't reinforcing a bad habit.

EDIT: You mention the whole RoT thing. This is a rant I have in my blog linked below. It's somewhat similar. It's the idea that there's these "Rules" of photography, and people tend to think that rules shouldn't be broken, for one reason or another. It's not really related this the original topic, but since you mentioned it, I thought I'd mention this as a possible interesting read. The title is "There are no rules in Photography!"


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> I know it's a pretty complicated problem, but I figured it was worth a shot at distilling it down.



I absolutely agree. If your thread helps only one person, it was still worth it.

I also agree that this place is great to potentially learn. Potentially is the operative word here because 1/ you will only learn if you want to and, if you can read and understand english  (I have seen many threads where the same thing is said over and over and the OP just doesn't get it. And I'm not talking about foreigners whose mother tongue is not english)  2/ You need a bit of a thick skin. C&C is not always pleasant no matter how nicely things are said but, being on the internet, some people feel they can be curt and you just have to accept that and not let it get to you. I do it myself sometimes although I know it is not the best thing to do but I am no more perfect than anybody else and people looking for help here need to be able to just take it. It is not that big a deal. Not only that but I have found that in life there is more to learn from the unpleasant moments than from the pleasant ones...

I also agree that you should not reinforce bad behavior whether with your dog or with photography   But what I was saying is that you have to give time to the newbies to learn to C&C. None of us are born knowing how to C&C anymore than we are born knowing photography. And the newbie is eager to use his new found knowledge so that sometimes it leads to post that are kind of stupid. It's not always easy but when those of us who know more run into such posts, we should C&C those bad posts along with the photo being offered in the first place. This, of course, would be a perfect world and there is no such thing as a perfect world so it doesn't happen very often.

A newbie does not necessarily know enough to know he/she is reinforcing bad habits and if we don't help them understand that, we are not doing our job as people with more experience. And I shouldn't even use the word experience here because I've seen plenty of "experienced" photogs who really are not that good and do things that are, to me, very strange.

Last, start your rules thread and I will post a heavy duty response but do it today or tomorrow. I am moving and will be basically gone from here as of Tuesday. Maybe it can be my last contribution 

Now, I am going to go read your blog.


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## Gaerek (Feb 6, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:
			
		

> You need a bit of a thick skin. C&C is not always pleasant no matter how nicely things are said


 
QFT

I think this is the crux of the problem. People don't want to hear that there's something wrong with their photo. Unfortunately, you need to hear the bad to get better.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

I think I should have added that if you take C&C the correct way it is never unpleasant. C&C is a way to learn and most people (at least, I hope) are not being negative just for the sake of being negative. If you understand that C&C nothing more than another way to learn, the negative comments are no more unpleasant than the positive ones.

The big question, which I think you raised earlier, is whether you are here to learn or to boost your ego...

It does help to mention the good along with the bad although there is sometimes no good to be found   It also helps to understand that not everyone expresses themselves in the same manner. I usually understand and agree with what Bitter Jeweler says (don't hate me Bitter) but I also understand that his way of putting things is going to get some people riled up. Spend some time reading him, get him, and imho there's no reason for a problem.


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## hower610 (Feb 6, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I disagree with this being the problem. If you are experienced or professional, you should act in that manneer, not like you are better than the op. Even if I am not the op, it tends to discourage me when I read the less then professional comments from the experienced/professional members. On the flip side of this, if the op receives less then professional comments, he/she should be the bigger person and not escalate the situation.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

hower610 said:


> I disagree with this being the problem. If you are experienced or professional, you should act in that manneer, not like you are better than the op.



Do you mean you want C&C from people who are not better than you? I see no problem with acting like I'm better than the OP if I am and, frankly, if I want to learn I will ask for C&C from people who are better than me. Not from people who have nothing to teach me. But, to each his/her own.


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## hower610 (Feb 6, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> hower610 said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with this being the problem. If you are experienced or professional, you should act in that manneer, not like you are better than the op.
> ...



That great being better than the op, I am sure the one giving C&C has worked hard to get to the point they are at. Just don't treat them as a terrible photograher. Remember, you were there at one time...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 6, 2010)

How does one respond in a manner that doesn't give the impression that one is better than the other?

Oh, and thanks for "getting me", c.cloudwalker.



hower610 said:


> That great being better than the op, I am sure the one giving C&C has worked hard to get to the point they are at. Just don't treat them as a terrible photograher. Remember, you were there at one time...


 
What makes you think I didn't recieve harsh CC when I was a "beginner" right here on this forum? There were some really good people here, that were just as harsh and to the point as I am. I was never offended. I learned quickly too. I don't see anyone treating others as "terrible photographers." What I see and have participated in, are battles with people who JUST DON'T LISTEN to *anything* _anyone_ says, and think THEY are the smarter one. Repeatedly posting for praise, and being rude to the givers of negative comments.


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## hower610 (Feb 6, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> How does one respond in a manner that doesn't give the impression that one is better than the other?
> 
> Oh, and thanks for "getting me", c.cloudwalker.



In my professional life, I have been through a number of management trainings and seminars. One of the most important things I have learned to do when giving feedback to indiviguals is to always open up with atleast one good point. Then give the critisism in a non demeaning way. Open ended questions work well while giving feedback. It allows the person that is recieving the feed back a chance to think on their own and in most cases they realize what their mistakes are and they become better at what they are doing or trying to acheive. I use this with all of my employees expecially at their anual review and I am amamazed at how well this method actually works.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

hower610 said:


> That great being better than the op, I am sure the one giving C&C has worked hard to get to the point they are at. Just don't treat them as a terrible photograher. Remember, you were there at one time...



Absolutely agree but, please, read my previous posts. We are only human, we have bad days like every one else and we don't all express ourselves in the same manner. Therefore you (the you being anyone looking for C&C) do need a bit of a thick skin to accept those facts and not fly off the handle.





Bitter Jeweler said:


> How does one respond in a manner that doesn't give the impression that one is better than the other?
> 
> Oh, and thanks for "getting me", c.cloudwalker.



Very good question indeed. Not to mention that I actually work at giving the impression that I DO know more so that the person knows it is worth listening to.

No thanks needed :lmao: I'm old enough and have dealt with enough different people to know we are not all the same (thank god) and that it takes a little work to "get" some people.   Especially on the internet where we lack a lot of the clues such as facial expressions, tone of voice, accents, etc.

I can only hope that one of these days you are not so bitter and will change your screen name


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

hower610 said:


> I use this with all of my employees expecially at their anual review and I am amamazed at how well this method actually works.



Does it really?  Don't take this personally because I don't know the first thing about you but considering the way things are going in the world I have a tendency to question everything that anyone claims to work.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 6, 2010)

hower610 said:


> Open ended questions work well while giving feedback. It allows the person that is recieving the feed back a chance to think on their own and in most cases they realize what their mistakes are and they become better at what they are doing or trying to acheive.


 
I do this. It doesn't always work here. Often my questions are ignored. I love when I give crop suggestions, and the OP never tries it. I like when I am asked to show what I mean. It shows the OP is engaged and willing to see another perspective. This rarely happens though. I often get a sense from responses, or lack there of, of a "yeah, yeah, whatever" kind of attitude. To me this demonstrates that no learning is going to happen.



c.cloudwalker said:


> I can only hope that one of these days you are not so bitter and will change your screen name


Never.
I am not bitter at all, actually.


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## hower610 (Feb 6, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> hower610 said:
> 
> 
> > Open ended questions work well while giving feedback. It allows the person that is recieving the feed back a chance to think on their own and in most cases they realize what their mistakes are and they become better at what they are doing or trying to acheive.
> ...



I think it's great that are many people here, such as yourself, willing to share their knowledge, but if the op, even if it's me, ignore tips that are shared, that is their issue. Even if the keep posting, no need to get aggravated, ignore it. In my opinion they are the ones not serious about improving. Enough said, I personal don't have problems with anybody, I am here to learn.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 6, 2010)

I have a bigger problem with those who defend the OP, and make everyone else out to be bad guys. That's a huge issue that came about recently.


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## marmots (Feb 6, 2010)

i think this should be a sticky


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 6, 2010)

Management seminars and psychology are great in context.  However this isn't a business and I'm not dealing with my employees here.  If you have the patience and inclination to run that exercise every time you give feedback then more power to you.

If I see something I like I say so, if I don't feel strongly enough about it then I won't.  I'm not going to patronize the OP (or waste my time) making up something nice to say.

If negative feedback is enough to cause one to give up on photography then perhaps one should reexamine their commitment.  Sorry.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 6, 2010)

marmots said:


> i think this should be a sticky



Yes but no one will read it :lmao:


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## erhard (Feb 6, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I have a bigger problem with those who defend the OP, and make everyone else out to be bad guys. That's a huge issue that came about recently.


:thumbup: I have to agree with that! :thumbup:


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## Dominantly (Feb 6, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I have a bigger problem with those who defend the OP, and make everyone else out to be bad guys. That's a huge issue that came about recently.


So true.

I'll make this specific, I really dislike it when I see a thread with someones attempt at baby/child photography, that has some obvious flaws, but still gets "great shots" from everyone.
It seems like people just want to make the OP feel good about the shots, or maybe they don't want to hurt their feelings because their kids are the subject.. I don't know

It just irks me.


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## Craig G (Feb 6, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> 1) New user posts pictures. He thinks they're great and he'll get lots of praise.
> 2) Veteran photographer/poster replies and gives honest and direct C&C about the flaws of the shot, and how it can be made better.
> 3) New user gets defensive and says that those flaws pointed out by the veteran were intentional, and that critique on those isnt valid.
> 4) Veteran posts again stating that even if the flaws he pointed out earlier were intentional, the photo, because of those flaws, intentional or not, still isn't good.
> ...


Homerun..:thumbup:


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## redonyx (Feb 6, 2010)

Maybe there should be some way to indicate the degree of C&C you want that is more effective than simply saying "please be honest". I'm all for honest feedback, even if it means my photo will be torn apart since I'll do everything I can to make the next one better.

Not everybody works this way though. I know from experience as a speaking coach that some people really need an ego boost to get hooked on something and then you can start hitting them with the real subject matter.

I had an account here a few years ago (I've completely forgotten what my login was) and there used to be a section for "harsh criticism." I was never comfortable enough to post there but the feedback there was usually bang on. I wonder if this would work again.


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 6, 2010)

redonyx said:


> Not everybody works this way though. I know from experience as a speaking coach that some people really need an ego boost to get hooked on something and then you can start hitting them with the real subject matter.


 
How about a separate room for people who are only looking for attaboys and ego strokes?

I can't believe we are distinguishing different types of C&C.  It is either honest C&C or it is blowing sunshine.  The latter is a waste of bandwidth IMHO.


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## redonyx (Feb 6, 2010)

I agree entirely that all feedback should be honest but at the same time if a person's first posted photo is torn apart by harsh criticism because it really is a terrible photo, they're not likely to even want to improve. A lot of people are still under the mistaken impression that having a "good camera" makes you a "good photographer". This is entirely wrong of course but you're really not doing a beginning photographer any favours by completely shattering them. 

On the other side of the coin, a whitewash is totally useless as well since it continues the thought that the art is in the camera. I skip over the posts that just say "really nice pic" since they don't do anything for me. I have friends and family to tell me my pictures are good, I came here to find out how to improve them.

On the topic of distinguishing different types of C&C, I should like to point out that honest doesn't mean pointing out all of the faults and none of the strong points. If you really hate the picture, ignore it. The way I see it C&C should have as a primary goal to encourage the photographer to continue to grow, not to put their camera up on eBay and try something different.


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 6, 2010)

redonyx said:


> I should like to point out that honest doesn't mean pointing out all of the faults and none of the strong points. If you really hate the picture, ignore it.



Nobody said it did.  Honest means the good with the bad.  And why should we ignore a photo we hate?  Should we only c&c those we like?


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## reznap (Feb 6, 2010)

More people need to read this... if you want unconditional praise, show a picture to your parents or something.  ---Actually some peoples' parents are pretty harsh lol.


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## redonyx (Feb 6, 2010)

Of course you shouldn't only comment on the ones you like, but at the same time, don't comment on a picture that you can't see a way to improve.


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## manaheim (Feb 7, 2010)

Honestly, by and large I think communities like this are more damaging than you would think.  Cloud kinda opened my eyes to this sometime back.

I mean everyone wants C&C because they want to get better, but getting better technically and getting better artistically are two MASSIVELY different things requiring a TOTALLY different set of environments.  Generally speaking, getting better artistically is extraordinarily hard to do on a forum... PARTICULARLY when you consider the amount of times someone does something neat artisitcally and gets bashed up side the head and told they were "wrong" for not using the rule of thirds or (gasp!) angling your picture. 

In other words, places like this actually can pretty effectively pound the creative elements out of you and make you think and produce just like everyone else in the throng.

There are those on this forum and places like it that think outside of the mere limitations of the technical requirements... cloud being one... craig being another really good example... there are others still... but they are few and far between, and for someone who isn't that experienced it's REALLY hard to tell whether these guys are the ones you should be listening to, or the 20 other people who said that unless you follow the golden mean that your picture sucks.

It's an irksome problem.


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## IgsEMT (Feb 7, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## bigtwinky (Feb 8, 2010)

Hey, can there be an "unthank" button?  We can then "unthank" those who give crappy CC and after x amount of unthanks, they are auto banned from the forums?

I kid people...I kid... ok, I dont.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 8, 2010)

I would love that!

Another forum I belong to has "karma" points. And it's pretty cool. You know who you can disregard.


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## bigtwinky (Feb 8, 2010)

But...then 60% of the forum would be disregarded


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 8, 2010)

Yeah, and...?

:lmao:


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## bigtwinky (Feb 8, 2010)

haha, you are a character I missed here Jeweler


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## Overread (Feb 8, 2010)

You guys are so not ready for Karma points!! 

besides if we had them I would aim to get negative karma (generally one gets a nice red line of boxes rather than agreen line and I like red - its a nice colour)

as for critique - anyone had a look at this recently?
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html


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## Gaerek (Feb 8, 2010)

manaheim said:


> Honestly, by and large I think communities like this are more damaging than you would think.  Cloud kinda opened my eyes to this sometime back.
> 
> I mean everyone wants C&C because they want to get better, but getting better technically and getting better artistically are two MASSIVELY different things requiring a TOTALLY different set of environments.  Generally speaking, getting better artistically is extraordinarily hard to do on a forum... PARTICULARLY when you consider the amount of times someone does something neat artisitcally and gets bashed up side the head and told they were "wrong" for not using the rule of thirds or (gasp!) angling your picture.
> 
> ...



Be that as it may, if you do not know how to take a technically correct photo, how can you even possibly begin to get creative?

A ceramic artist needs to learn the technical aspects of throwing clay, using the different tools, firing the clay at the correct temperatures, using the correct glazes and firing them at the correct temperatures. Don't even get me started on other techniques such as Raku firing. The most artistic, creative person in the world, who has never worked with ceramics before, and just decides to pick it up, without learning the technical aspects of it will do nothing but create almost literal crap.

They could be doing something very creative (maybe adding a neat aspect of design, or something), but if the pot is cracked, and the glaze was over fired, or whatever, that creative aspect doesn't matter at all!

The biggest problem here is that most of the issues aren't creativity problems. They are technical problems. I've discussed this in the past, but I hate the way the so-called "Rules" of photography are taught. (I've mentioned my blog post linked in my sig about this.) It really does stifle creativity. I've seen shots that would have been absolutely stunning, if the photographer *hadn't* used the RoT. But, in order to be creative, you need to know what the human brain likes to see, what it doesn't like to see, and when to throw both of those out, and do something different that might be something the human brain will like to see.

I know that when I give C&C, if I see the OP trying something out of the ordinary, I'll make it a point to comment on that, and that I like the way they are trying to step out of the box. But if they tilt the photo, but everything else is wrong (out of focus, centered, wrong DoF, etc) guess what, it makes no difference at all that they tried tilting the photo, and the tilting likely makes it look worse, whereas had they understood the technical aspects of photography, it might have made for an interesting photo.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 8, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> Be that as it may, if you do not know how to take a technically correct photo, how can you even possibly begin to get creative



Very true.

And I'll give you my take on the dreaded rules here as this is my last post for quite a while probably.

First, there are no rules in photography. Rules are for society, games, etc but not for art. Artistic endeavors have guidelines. Some of those came about by people observing what pleases the eyes best. Others came about to trick the eye into being pleased such as the fact that on very large sculptures of standing people the head is larger than it should be. It is a way to trick the eye into thinking it is normal size.

And, btw, this is one of the reasons I tell people to study design rather than photo composition. Some tricks like that are never mentioned in photo composition books and they can be quite useful 

In most cases, we create art to please the senses in one way or another so, using the guidelines makes it easier. Why re-invent the wheel? Just use what is available. In some cases, using the guidelines doesn't work because we want to trick the viewer into another sort of reaction and that is when we get away from the darn things.

But you can only get away from the guidelines in a way that makes sense and works if you know the guidelines in the first place. So, that means that you have to learn them in the early stages of you development as an artist. Then, do whatever.

But, once you've learned the guidelines, you'll most probably never think much about them. They will become second nature and so will knowing when to get away from them.

Hope this helps someone.


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## KyleeLL (Feb 8, 2010)

As a newbie I appreciate all "real" comments, postitive or negative. When it comes to my camera I can honestly say that I am only an expert at turning it on and off. Without the comments of others how else does one expect to increase in skill?


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## bigtwinky (Feb 8, 2010)

I often accidently turn my off when moving my finger from the shutter to the trash button.


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## Dominantly (Feb 8, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> I often accidently turn my off when moving my finger from the shutter to the trash button.


Then you clearly shoot with a Canon


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 9, 2010)

Bump for anyone who might've missed it.


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## Big (Feb 9, 2010)

I vote making this a sticky!


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## onetolearn (Feb 9, 2010)

So, I think I may be the "newest" member here and I wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I am also probably the "newest" to photography and really don't know crap. I want to learn from everyone who knows more than I do, and the only way to learn is by your mistakes. I don't want to hear my pictures are perfect. (That's for my family to tell me haha) I want to hear what I need to improve, and furthermore HOW to go about doing it. I want to learn from others and train my eye to what makes a decent photo and what makes an AMAZING photo! And, like said before....I'm not going to learn that by someone telling me my photo is nice!!!


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## melrose09 (Feb 9, 2010)

What about making two separate forums...one for just posting (hey, here's some photos, see!) and one for C&C (here's some photos that I want help with)?


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## Big (Feb 9, 2010)

onetolearn said:


> So, I think I may be the "newest" member here and I wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I am also probably the "newest" to photography and really don't know crap. I want to learn from everyone who knows more than I do, and the only way to learn is by your mistakes. I don't want to hear my pictures are perfect. (That's for my family to tell me haha) I want to hear what I need to improve, and furthermore HOW to go about doing it. I want to learn from others and train my eye to what makes a decent photo and what makes an AMAZING photo! And, like said before....I'm not going to learn that by someone telling me my photo is nice!!!


You picked a good place to learn, the people here are awesome and so smart!


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## Gaerek (Feb 10, 2010)

melrose09 said:


> What about making two separate forums...one for just posting (hey, here's some photos, see!) and one for C&C (here's some photos that I want help with)?


 
So people who don't want to get better and hear nothing but praise can have their own place to post pictures? Kinda seems counter-productive to me.

The problem still boils down to people not wanting to hear negative comments about their work. You will have to hear negativity if you want to get better.

Besides, the galleries (scroll down from main forum page) usually offer a lot less in the way of C&C than the beginners forum, if you want to have  a lesser chance of hearing negative comments.


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## Overread (Feb 10, 2010)

We do have a section for no critical commenting - the "Just for fun" section. All the rest of the subjections critical comments are allowed. Infact in the past the beginners area was not an area where images were posted and the galleries were all there was.

As for people not "developing" one must always understand that not everyone takes photography in the same "serious" light. Some are quite happy to keep taking and sharing snaps and nothing more. You see less of these people on a forum because forum people tend to be hobbyists which means things get taken more seriously by most (but not all).

In addition after bad vibes and overall horrible results the C&C section of TPF was taken down a long time ago (Before my time here) and with the current user base and the new site owners I do not see that section making a return.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 10, 2010)

Overread said:


> In addition after bad vibes and overall horrible results the C&C section of TPF was taken down a long time ago (Before my time here) and with the current user base and the new site owners I do not see that section making a return.



Actually I was an active member here when the C&C section was pretty active. There were a lot more good photographers posting here then and TPF was much less of a beginners' forum - which is clearly is today as you can see from the volume of posting in the beginners' forum compared to the others.

At that time, there was even a strong movement to allow the mods to remove non-substantive posts (I love this, I don't like this, etc) just because they swelled the posting totals but didn't contribute at all.

I am one of the people who give C&C in a rather straightforward manner. I say exactly what I think about the picture but try always to say things in a way that respects the photographer and assumes that he/she wants honest opinions so they can improve. 

Many people here are new enough to taking pictures so that the technical issues about a picture are the only things they can grasp; i.e. they haven't yet learned how to view a picture as successful or not. They know intuitively and express it as "I like your picture' but they can't go beyond that. And that is the most important thing a new photographer can get from looking at others' pictures and reading C&C.  Why do they like something? Do technical
issues mean the picture is less successful than it should be? 

My attitude always is that any picture should be counted as successful if it has an emotional, intellectual or artistic impact and that technical issues are only important as they detract from that impact. 



> I'm a 1st grade teacher and when I was in college, my profs told us that when talking to parents about their child, you should always "sandwich" negative comments or news with positive comments.



I'm not much of a believer in always saying something positive. That might be useful, even necessary, with first graders but I would hope that at least some of the people here are more mature than that and want to be treated as adults. And there is little as obvious and as patronizing as a positive comment that is tortured out of a total mess of an effort.  I believe in always saying the truth as I see it.

One of the major failings of TPF in the last couple of years has been the gradual decrease in the number of competent people who actually say the truth. Not too long ago, after seeing quite a competent portraitist make a big deal out of a minor positive point in a posted picture while totally ignoring the blatant failings. I asked why that comment when I knew the commenter knew better; the response was that they didn't want the OP to feel bad. 

This can either be a ego support system for mediocre photographers or a place where people who want it can actually depend on hearing the truth and learn to be a better photographer.  

The fact that this kind of thread reappears so often is evidence that it is failing as a center of learning.

Lew


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 10, 2010)

^^^^^
Great post.


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## Gaerek (Feb 10, 2010)

The_Traveler's post makes me wish I could thank someone multiple times.


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 10, 2010)

And what is it with the proliferation of "hey what do you think of my random snapshot" threads?

Thoughtful critique seems moot when the effort was completely random.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 10, 2010)

SoonerBJJ said:


> And what is it with the proliferation of "hey what do you think of my random snapshot" threads?
> 
> Thoughtful critique seems moot when the effort was completely random.



Perhaps one could address the issue directly with a statement something like:"this seems like a random snapshot, what is it about this shot that you think deserves considered response? why is it a meaningful shot in your eyes? "


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 10, 2010)

I think there should be a random snapshot gallery, and an active mod to move any thread that uses the word 'random' in the title or any post to it.

Then maybe also a 'I R trying to B serious photography' subforum.

Oh, also a subforum for those who lack shift keys...


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## Foques (Feb 10, 2010)

Gaerek, you are my hero!
this is one of the reasons why i stopped posting here.. I am sick and tired of the "good shot" comments, when I know there are flaws in my shots.

thanks to those who tore my shots apart in the past and keep doing that, I can get better.. not any other way.


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## 13butlucky (Feb 10, 2010)

Thank you very much for this! I myself am very new, but have a photoblog. I mostly only have friends and family looking at it, and all they say is, Great job!, and nice work! I end up never knowing whether my shots are good, or not (probably the latter). Anyway, I would much rather have some useful criticism from a more experienced photographer than another star sticker from someone who thinks I take nice pictures.


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## javafriek (Feb 11, 2010)

So by using that method, what does it usually mean when you only get one or no comment at all?


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 11, 2010)

SoonerBJJ said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > Tiny said:
> ...


 
I cut this from another thread because I thought it relevant here.  YMMV.


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## Derrel (Feb 11, 2010)

I think The_Traveler's post from yesterday summed things up quite well. But I want to add something that I see as a generational issue as it relates to giving and receiving of criticism,and that is that, from my mid-40's point of view, and that of my wife of the same age--that many young people today, especially those in their early to mid-20's, have a very,very difficult time in accepting criticism. The most carefully-worded and delicate criticism is often met with a mule-like, "But I wanted it that way!" or a ,"Dude, don't bag on my pics--I'm just a beginner!" or other similar protestation.

There's a fine line between accepting criticism with a gulp and a swallow of one's pride, and a defiant, non-accepting rejection of criticism. What I find so annoying is that I have spent much of my life, over 35 years now, studying photography, composition, design, and lighting, and have spent literally years of my life looking at photo books and millions of images on-line,and have read books about photography,photographers,and photo criticism,as well as the history of photography, and studied it at the junior high,high school, university, and community college levels...and yet when I or other similar long-timers says something to a young 20-something shooter, I have about a 50-50 chance of having my point of view openly rejected or dismissed. It has come to the point that somebody had to write "The Pact" to tell people how to accept criticism.

I try not to "bag on" weak shots, but there are many self-taught shooters here who commonly violate long-held design principles and traditions of art,design,and photography. The field of photography as a hobby has changed dramatically over the last 10 years, with more and more beginners rushing headlong into the field without having learned anything from anybody else in the field; today; it's buy a camera, skim the manual, and start shooting and posting photos. 

Most of today's younger photography participants have never had an art professor or design professor who really cracked down hard on them, or challenged them to do better, or to work harder, or to really critically evaluate their work. Pre-internet, photography was judged and evaluated against the work of the MASTERS in the various sub-disciplines, so...when accepting C&C today, I think younger shooters need to at least try and honestly listen to what their evaluators are telling them, and SUCK IT UP and try and get better. And accept that they do not really have a long-term barometer against which their work is being evaluated. HOw is C&C to be given? 

For beginning shooters, I think you need to ask yourselves: Do you want to be compared against other people with 12-24 months of experience, or do you want your work to be compared against what is *possible*?


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## Overread (Feb 11, 2010)

Derrel said:


> For beginning shooters, I think you need to ask yourselves: Do you want to be compared against other people with 12-24 months of experience, or do you want your work to be compared against what is *possible*?



This is often why I encourage people to join more than one photographic forum - big catch all forums like here are great places to see the scope and depth of photography from all walks and interests - plus its often great to get input on a photo which comes from someone who does not have a dedicated background in your field/area of interest (eg macro shooters appreciate a macro image in a very different way to that of say a studio photographer) 
However people also need to join smaller, dedicated communities that focus on their specific interest areas with photography. Such places often attract a larger number of highly skilled photographers within a disipline (eg macro shooters - studio - sports etc...) and that can really help things along when you "rub shoulders with the pros"


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## Gaerek (Feb 11, 2010)

javafriek said:


> So by using that method, what does it usually mean when you only get one or no comment at all?



A lot of times, from what I've seen, it means that there's nothing really to comment on, good or bad. They might be technically correct, or close to technically correct, but there's nothing that stands out that's worth commenting on. Or, it's a subject that everyone here has seen 100 times. Pictures of pets come to mind, and things like that.



SoonerBJJ said:


> SoonerBJJ said:
> 
> 
> > bigtwinky said:
> ...



I caught this in the thread that it was originally posted in, but decided against commenting. Since you re-posted here, I think it's worth giving a comment about. I have to agree with Twinky here. "It's a snapshot" is about as lazy C&C as "Great shot!" or "It sucks!" Snapshot means something different to each person, and it's very subjective. It doesn't describe anything that is specifically wrong, but more of a feeling that one gets from the photo. Everyone will interpret what it means differently, especially a new photographer who may not understand why a snapshot is a bad thing, and how to fix it. Sure, there are things that might be common of all or most snapshots, but there are no hard and fast rules.

If you've already spent the time to click reply, you might as well give something that the person will actually be able to use. Here's a challenge. Write out a list of problems that are common to all snapshots. Now, ask a beginner if they can list problems that are common to all snapshots. If those match, or are close, I'll concede that saying something is a snapshot is adequate C&C. If there isn't anything common between ALL snapshots, you're going to leave people (especially beginners) confused as to what they need to do to fix it.

Seriously, do you really think that "It's a snapshot" is just as relevant and useful as "You want to make sure you're down at the level of your subject, and be absolutely sure you've nailed focus on the eyes. Most importantly, try turning the pop-up flash off, and use the ambient light. You'll likely need to open your aperture wide, and turn your ISO up, but it'll be worth it for the better shot."



Derrel said:


> I think The_Traveler's post from yesterday summed things up quite well. But I want to add something that I see as a generational issue as it relates to giving and receiving of criticism,and that is that, from my mid-40's point of view, and that of my wife of the same age--that many young people today, especially those in their early to mid-20's, have a very,very difficult time in accepting criticism. The most carefully-worded and delicate criticism is often met with a mule-like, "But I wanted it that way!" or a ,"Dude, don't bag on my pics--I'm just a beginner!" or other similar protestation.



The generational gap idea is quite interesting, and I think that it's very plausible. What's interesting is, you'd probably think I was much older than I really am. In reality, I'm one of those mid-20's you mentioned. Fortunately, when I was learning photography about 10 years ago when I was 17, I had a professional photographer as a mentor. He was about as harsh as anyone I've ever seen here, but it was that harsh critique that helped me become a better photographer.

Kids these days (that makes me feel old!) want instant gratification, and they believe that if they think something is good, then everyone should feel the same way.

When I get C&C, I want is from people who are better than I am. People who have less skill than me have little to nothing to offer me. Unfortunately too many people love mediocrity and love it when the unskilled give them critique because they love seeing the "Wow, great shot!"


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## bigtwinky (Feb 11, 2010)

Along with the "I like this shot", I think we should add the "this is a snapshot" comments


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 11, 2010)

Gaerek, your points are well taken.  I would agree that a complete beginner would not necessarily know what defines a "snapshot" or why that might even be considered negative feedback.  I won't take you up on your challenge because I'll concede that the results would be about what you would expect.  But I believe if one were to spend a few weeks around the forum a general sense of "what is snapshot-ness" would begin to take shape.

Ideally one would try to offer more specific criticism or suggestions that might help the OP improve their next time around.  But all comments should be considered within context of the OP and the critic.  Depending on who is delivering, I might value "great shot" or "it sucks" as C&C.  It isn't as helpful as "this is what you can do better next time" but SOMETIMES any feedback is better than none.  But again this gets back at the relative experience of the photographer.  The needs of the beginner are going to differ from those of the more experienced.


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## The_Traveler (Feb 12, 2010)

It seems that the discussion is circling around an important but subsidiary issue &#8211; "what is the 'correct' form for c&c." 

I suggest that instead the important topic should be *"how can we improve the quality of the interactions on this forum?"* There are enough people posting on this thread alone to make a difference. (And if a reader doesn't think the forum needs to be improved, he or she is absolutely welcome to go on doing whatever they did before.)

I suggest several steps, not in any specific order of importance.

1)encourage people to post other than in the beginners' forum. There are lots of reasons for this, not the least of which that they'll be exposed to better shooters, as it were, and like content in the specific forums. This will also return the beginners' forum to the home of real new fish.

2)When people give the short-hand 'I love it answers', ask them to enlarge on that. Make the point that understanding why one likes or dislikes a shot is as much of a learning experience as taking the picture. When people try to beg off by saying that they're a newby, refer them to a simple how-to on C&C. 

(I know that someone here has written one but I can't find it easily.  I also have written one under the title of Saying you like it is not enough.'  Maybe put a link to a how-to in your signature.)

Make the point that C&C is not about technical issues but about why the viewer likes the picture and they've been looking at pictures for years. 

3)Take the rules of the Forum seriously and give C&C to every picture you have the energy to undertake that is posted in the forums you frequent.  Do this specifically, to provide an example to other posters.

4)Save your energy. Don't shoot the corpse.  If someone has given a good C&C already, go on to another picture.  This is not an effort to fully educate one poster or fully consider one picture but an effort to improve the Forum.

Lew


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## Overread (Feb 12, 2010)

Whilst this thread is dealing with the attitude and conduct of members as a whole I think there might be some posting here who might find the following interesting:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...raphy-mentors-kickstarting-project-again.html


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 17, 2010)

Good link Over.


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## Gaerek (Feb 23, 2010)

First of all, allow me to apologize for bumping a thread on page 9. I wanted to share my feelings about this whole issue after a week or so of reflecting on it, and this is probably the best place to put it. I've been moving into a new place over the past week, and that has given me some time away from the forums and from photography in general. It's allowed me to put some things in perspective.

First of all, my feelings from my first post are still the same. I think that there are still people who ask for C&C but don't want any help. The difference is my attitude regarding these people. It used to make me mad, it used to upset me. Not anymore. I realized the only people that are getting hurt are the people who don't want to hear critical comments about their work. Basically, if you want to stay in your own little fantasy land where your photography work is the best in the world, then have at it. Reality is a *****, and some people can't handle it.

I thought about just not giving C&C anymore, but I realized that's not the answer. Instead, I'll give C&C when I can, and if someone is obviously a better photographer than me, and obviously knows what they're doing (sarcasm intended), I'll just refuse to give them help. Those that are appreciative, and actually want to learn, I will continue to help them. It's as simple as that.

I can't change people's attitude, all I can do is stop encouraging people to hurt their own photography, and that's what I will be doing from here on out.


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## LoveAlwaysJami (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm sorry too for bumping this thread at page 9, but reading through it I wish I wouldve found it earlier!  This should automatically pop-up when someone gets a username so we don't make a fool out of ourselves right off  I've only started two actual threads with pictures that I KNOW were not top knotch.  People have been very helpful and constructive.. I "believe" I posted them in the right area which was entitled "Beginners" or something of that nature.  You have pros and newbies on every forum.  You have sweethearts and jerks on every forum.  When I found TPF it was because I searched "BEGINNERS PHOTOGRAPHY FORUM" on my browser BUT I saw someone say they were leaving the forum because it was full of newbies and questioning where all the "real" photographers went yesterday, WTF? I was initially offended.  Isn't that what its all about?  Getting as many people as you can with common interest so they can communicate..new or seasoned?  Anyway, now Im just ranting.  Thank you for putting this together for us!


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## aliciaqw (Mar 30, 2010)

Sooo, as a newbie I guess I should not offer my C&C?  OK then...lips sealed since I have no technical background or experience.


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## Gaerek (Mar 30, 2010)

aliciaqw said:


> Sooo, as a newbie I guess I should not offer my C&C? OK then...lips sealed since I have no technical background or experience.


 
That wasn't the point I was trying to make when I posted this. I personally think it's important for beginners to get used to offering critisism to others for their work. How can you be expected to critique your own work if you can't even critique someone elses? One of the points that I was trying to make is that if your only critique is "Hey nice shot!" that maybe it would be better not to say anything at all. If you like a particular photograph, just explain why you like it, that's all.

The main point of this thread was to get people to take feelings out of C&C, and to offer actual critique on a photo. Too many people tend to say that someone has a great shot, simply because they don't want to hurt their feelings. This tends to hurt the photographer more than help them because it reinforces bad habits and bad techniques.

Please offer C&C. Just make sure to explain what you like or dislike about a shot.


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## Overread (Mar 30, 2010)

+1 to what Gaerek just said. You can learn a heck of a lot even just giving comments and being open with what you like/dislike about an image. You might not know all the right words, but if you can descrive your feelings and views that goes a long way. 

First you are giving the critique to the shooter and secondly you are yourself starting to put down in words how you feel about an image - that is a powerfull thing since it starts to help you to understand what it really is that you are seeing and how you are seeing photographs - and that of course builds directly into your own composition and your own taking/creation of photos.


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## Gaerek (Mar 30, 2010)

Overread said:


> +1 to what Gaerek just said. You can learn a heck of a lot even just giving comments and being open with what you like/dislike about an image. You might not know all the right words, but if you can descrive your feelings and views that goes a long way.
> 
> First you are giving the critique to the shooter and secondly you are yourself starting to put down in words how you feel about an image - that is a powerfull thing since it starts to help you to understand what it really is that you are seeing and how you are seeing photographs - and that of course builds directly into your own composition and your own taking/creation of photos.


 
And just to add to what both myself and Overread have said, the one thing that helped me become a better photographer more than anything else was when I started critiquing others. Like Overread said, it forced me to try to put my feelings about an image into words. Once you start learning more technical things about photography, you can start adding that also. Don't try to C&C above your skill level, but also don't give C&C that the photographer can't get anything out of.


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## aliciaqw (Mar 30, 2010)

Noted.  Thank you for the info!


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## Overread (Mar 30, 2010)

erose86 said:


> Haha, that's part of the other reason I tend to not comment... because I feel like I don't have any right to since I have no idea what I'm talking about.  haha



The only "right" that most ask for or wish is that anyone giving comments be free and ready to have comments given unto their work or at the very least display some of their work through the site or a website/blog (eg a link in your sig). That's about the only right you need


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## Gaerek (Mar 30, 2010)

erose86 said:


> So no one will laugh at me when I attempt to describe something using extremely non-technical (and possibly nonsensical) words to express why or why not I like an image?!


 
Then we can correct you, give you the proper terms, and you'll learn. Don't worry about not knowing terms. It's all a part of being a beginner.


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## rickabobaloey (Jul 20, 2010)

The original post can be applied to all things in life, truthfully. I wish I would have had more teachers in school who would have taken the time to give my some _true_ constructive criticism, instead of just letting me squeak on by with average grades.

I'll use baseball as another example. I had a coach in little league, who no matter how many times we'd strike out, drop a fly ball, etc., he'd always give us a pat on the back and say "nice try, you'll get it next time". Nothing however, was really done to get us to become better ballplayers. Would any of us have become professional? Maybe, maybe not. But I can guarantee we'd have had more of a chance had the coach taken more of a teaching role, and actually critiqued the way we played. Maybe the kid who caught the fly ball was just standing lazily in the outfield not really ready to spring into action when the ball was hit his way, but the coach didn't want to hurt his feelings by telling him to stay alive out there. To quote Tom Hanks from A League of Their Own, "There's no crying! There's no crying in baseball!!"

Kind of not on the point of photography, but I just thought this topic can portray to everything and anything that involves teaching. Sometimes teachers need to be harsh, it helps to get the point across.


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## white (Jul 21, 2010)

rickabobaloey said:


> The original post can be applied to all things in life, truthfully. I wish I would have had more teachers in school who would have taken the time to give my some _true_ constructive criticism, instead of just letting me squeak on by with average grades.
> 
> [...] Nothing however, was really done to get us to become better ballplayers. Would any of us have become professional? Maybe, maybe not. But I can guarantee we'd have had more of a chance had the coach taken more of a teaching role, and actually critiqued the way we played.


Yeah that would be ideal, until some brat's mom comes over and starts harassing you because you're being too hard on the kids. After awhile you just stop caring. I think we're slowly building a culture where there are no failures, no second place finishes. Everybody is equal and all that lovey-dovey bullshit.

You see it here to some extent. Sometimes people get bent out of shape because the criticism is thought to be too harsh, but most of it is well-intentioned. It's just not dressed up.


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## rickabobaloey (Jul 21, 2010)

I saw a Pizza Hut comercial the other day that showed two young kids who just lost a ball game who were talking about how no matter the outcome of the game, coach always took them to Pizza Hut afterwards. :meh: 

Seriously? If everything is equal, and everyone gets the same prize in the end, where's the motivation going to come from to actually put in the work and accomplish something?

This is a root problem, that really starts at the parenting level to be quite honest.


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## PerfectlyFlawed (Jul 21, 2010)

Good job!

Haha...jk. Seriously though...you make many good points and suggestions.. I *tried* to hit the 'thank' button...but for some stupid reason...it denied me. Hmm. Anyway, thanks for this thread!


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## crimbfighter (Jul 21, 2010)

I definitely agree with the OP on this one. It's never easy to take criticism from anyone, but if you're asking for C&C, you have to put your pride on the back burner. If you don't want C&C, simply post the photos with a disclaimer of "I'm just posting these to share with everyone" 

For those who followed my "Badge and Gun" series, it was without a doubt the C&C that allowed me to obtain the photos I wanted. Of course, in my mind, the first shot was good, but I was oblivious to how many "unknown knowns" I was missing. It's funny, I even ended that series with a note to my fellow noobs on how important of a role the honest C&C I received played in achieving the end result.  

Of course, with that being said, I have seen a few, and I do mean only a few, people posting C&C that appears unnecessarily harsh or rude. Granted, like what has already been said, they may have already tried to help this person several times before and they just aren't listening, but at that point, I think it's just better to not comment and chalk them up to a lost cause... There are many of us noobs on here that are genuinely interested in improving ourselves, and we couldn't do it without those of you who are willing to take the time and effort to help us achieve that goal.

So, a big thanks to all of you who are willing to help us!


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## Raizels (Jul 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I have a bigger problem with those who defend the OP, and make everyone else out to be bad guys. That's a huge issue that came about recently.



I've done that, but not because I wanted the OP to love me (although he did thank me). People were being really, really, unnecessarily rude, to the point of saying "I hate you a little more with every post". Tell me *that's* not personal!
I couldn't tolerate it, so I responded by defending the OP- the *OP*! Not the Photo!

... going back to read the thread through.


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## Taylor510ce (Jul 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I think there should be a random snapshot gallery, and an active mod to move any thread that uses the word 'random' in the title or any post to it.
> 
> Then maybe also a 'I R trying to B serious photography' subforum.
> 
> Oh, also a subforum for those who lack shift keys...


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## Taylor510ce (Jul 21, 2010)

:thumbup: I totally agree with the OP. I just figured that I would toss this out there as a simple conflict tool, but I am sure it could go a long way in C+C as well. Not that I think you should always have to be so delicate with people, but some food for thought. Its always good to use "I" instead of "You" in any type of conflict resolution. 

Instead of:

"You shot this picture with the wrong settings, you didn't level the camera first, you cut half of the subjects head off in the frame..."

Try this:

"I think you shot this with the wrong settings, I notice the horizon is crooked, and I don't think the way the subjects head is cut off, works in this picture...."

I think people in general tend to be defensive when opening themselves up to people. Even the best of us sometimes catch ourselves trying to make excuses when we know we just flat out screwed up.


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## Skyclad (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm glad this thread got bumped to the top because upon reading it, I have learned to not do something that I have been doing..

Much like the quote(s) below, I have no photographic experience what so ever, and up till now, I would be very selective about what photos I would give C&C to. (and most of it would mainly be comments rather that criticism.

But upon reading this...


Gaerek said:


> aliciaqw said:
> 
> 
> > Sooo, as a newbie I guess I should not offer my C&C? OK then...lips sealed since I have no technical background or experience.
> ...




I have learned that I haven't been doing enough to help the photographer just by commenting with a nothing more than a "Good Shot" comment. Usually I wouldn't say why I thought it was a good shot, because that would be my personal opinion rather than an educated comment. And as we know, opinions are like a$$h***es.. everyone has one. Also with beauty being in the eye of the beholder, I wouldn't describe why I liked the shot.

So from now on, when I give a "Good Shot" comment, I will definitely also include why I think it was a good shot. I now know that even if it is a personal opinion why I think its a good shot, it's still a form of critique even if I (or a commenter doesn't realize it).

As of currently, I still keep my critiques limited to what (little) I do know (such as aperture, ISO, Rule of Thirds, levelness, composition, and other basic stuff). But if all I can do is comment and not critique, I would reserve comments because I am still uneducated and am still training my eye for all said things. But I do hope that when I offer my untrained critiques, that the other, more experienced members will let me know if my critiques are correct or not, (and some have, fortunatly) because this also helps me to learn.

And I realize that even if I can only offer a comment (be it good or bad), that I should be descriptive in my reasons because as stated above... even comments are a form of critiquing.

/end jibberish talk


And I have to agree with others in that this should absolutely be a sticky. Maybe people will read the thread, maybe they wont. Either way, it will be stuck at the top for all to see, rather than to drop down and fade away into the "archives".


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## TiCoyote (Jul 21, 2010)

I took a lot of creative writing classes in college, and the best prof I had put it this way:  

Diagnose like a dentist.  A good dentist won't say, "I like your teeth" or even, "you have really nice teeth."  If he does, he is just being polite.  

A good dentist will say, "these parts are working, and these parts aren't, and here's why..."

When you use phrases such as "I like" or words such as "interesting" you are just presenting your subjective opinion.  The photag's goal is to present a technically correct image that is aesthetically pleasing to many people, not an image that makes one person happy.  

Words like "good" and "bad" are weak as well, because they are not specific.  The poster probably knows that something isn't working, be he needs to know why so he can fix it.  

I'm a little split when it comes to adding phrases like "I think" or "IMHO."  It feels more polite, and people may be more inclined to listen when the advice is gentler, especially when it comes from a stranger.  

However, I also see a lot of OPs who defend their images to the hilt.  I guess some people just shoot for themselves, and that's fine, but why ask for C&C?  Maybe they're just fishing for compliments.  I can name an instance in which I pointed out that colors in an image looked washed out because it was shot a noon.  The OP came back by saying that it was noon, and it was a really hot day, so that's the best they were going to look.  

I feel like C&C is anticipation of what a magazine editor or an audience in a gallery would say/think.  You can't argue with the editor, because he knows what he wants, and you can't argue with the audience, because you're not there.  

By all means, ask as many questions as you like.  But don't start making excuses or explaining why you think the C&C is wrong.    If you were going something specific, and the audience doesn't "get it," explain what you were looking for, and then ask how to achieve that.  

And of course, there are always jerks out there who give one line of feedback. "Nice shots" or "These aren't interesting."   I guess the best thing to do is ignore these and don't take it personally.  

If anyone is still reading, my question is this.  How long, minimum, should someone look at an image before making comments?  I think there should be a minimum amount of time we need to really study and take in an image before forming and stating an opinion.


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## Rosshole (Jul 21, 2010)

TiCoyote said:


> When you use phrases such as "I like" or words such as "interesting" you are just presenting your subjective opinion. The photag's goal is to present a technically correct image that is aesthetically pleasing to many people, not an image that makes one person happy.


 
Aesthetically pleasing IS a subjective opinion...    and I could post images all day long that are technically correct, but that doesn't mean that anyone is going to like them for anything other than being "technically correct"


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## Gaerek (Jul 21, 2010)

Rosshole said:


> TiCoyote said:
> 
> 
> > When you use phrases such as "I like" or words such as "interesting" you are just presenting your subjective opinion. The photag's goal is to present a technically correct image that is aesthetically pleasing to many people, not an image that makes one person happy.
> ...


 
I think it's important to give both objective AND subjective critique. If one person thinks a shot isn't aesthetically pleasing, then it's likely that many people don't. The important thing is to make sure you are explaining WHY you don't think it's aesthetically pleasing. Then it's up to the photographer to agree or disagree.

Thank you for bumping this, btw. I think it's starting to be needed again.


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## Rosshole (Jul 21, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> I think it's important to give both objective AND subjective critique. If one person thinks a shot isn't aesthetically pleasing, then it's likely that many people don't. The important thing is to make sure you are explaining WHY you don't think it's aesthetically pleasing. Then it's up to the photographer to agree or disagree.
> 
> Thank you for bumping this, btw. I think it's starting to be needed again.


 
Sure, I know what you mean and I have noticed the snarky asshole comments are gone while the "too nice" comments are on the rise.  It is a endless fight to maintain a comfortable balance...


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## Steve01 (Jul 21, 2010)

:thumbup: Well siad.


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## gsgary (Jul 21, 2010)

Gaerek said:


> When I first started posting here, if someone posted a photo for C&C, you could usually, within the first 2 or 3 replies get some honest and direct feedback on your photo. A trend I've seen lately, as highlighted by some recent threads (that I will not mention here) is saying "Good job!" or "Nice Shot!" to what can be called mediocre, or even bad photographs. The justification to this is usually one of two things:
> 
> 1) "I'm not really experienced, and cannot give good feedback, but I like the shot!"
> 2) "I don't want to hurt the feelings of a new photographer with negative feedback!"
> ...



You wont see me posting Good shot if they are crap


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## TiCoyote (Jul 21, 2010)

Rosshole said:


> TiCoyote said:
> 
> 
> > When you use phrases such as "I like" or words such as "interesting" you are just presenting your subjective opinion. The photag's goal is to present a technically correct image that is aesthetically pleasing to many people, not an image that makes one person happy.
> ...



I agree with what you're saying here.  When I say "aesthetically pleasing" I mean pleasing to a wider audience, which is difficult to determine unless you have a lot of experience.  

Yes, an image can show good technical skill, but not be interesting or attractive to the viewer.  However, a lot of people here (including me) are still trying to clear some technical hurdles.  Concrete technical advice, particularly for a beginner, is often easier to understand and follow.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 21, 2010)

I had forgotten about this thread. Good one. Although I should stop talking about my last post, lol, since I keep making time to come back. This place is too darn addictive.




Rosshole said:


> TiCoyote said:
> 
> 
> > When you use phrases such as "I like" or words such as "interesting" you are just presenting your subjective opinion. The photag's goal is to present a technically correct image that is aesthetically pleasing to many people, not an image that makes one person happy.
> ...



What about images that are not "Aesthetically Pleasing" on purpose? And I use the term images on purpose because I have used this technique both in photography and painting as a way to say "this is not pleasant but I want you to think about it."


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## Carson38 (Jul 21, 2010)

Thank you for taking your time to post this! Nicely done! :thumbup:


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## pgriz (Aug 6, 2010)

Very good discussion.  As has already been noted by several posters, the best critique is "this works, that doesn't  - here's why".  Bonus points if the critique also includes "and this is how to make it work...".  But if your motivation as a poster is to participate in a social network, then different rules seem to apply.  I've also been witness to a weird dynamic where a really, really good photographer (both technically and artistically) would post his shots, and would get almost uniformly high praise.  However, occasionally, someone would post a dissenting opinion and the poster would just tear them apart with his superior knowledge and many publishing credits.  It took some strong and self-assured people to tell him that he was out of line, and to bring some decorum and meaningful dialogue to that particular forum.  So posting for ego gratification isn't limited to newbies.


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## marmots (Aug 8, 2010)

i remember this one...   
i think it should be a sticky myself


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## Canosonic (Sep 18, 2010)

*?*

Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do, and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
G.Patton


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## mrmacedonian (Sep 18, 2010)

behavioral social psychology ftw.


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## manaheim (Sep 18, 2010)

All good points that some people will get and some won't.  Those that get it will praise you, those that don't will demonize you.  Since there's no rudder on this particular ship, you'll eventually get frustrated, give up and move on like all of the very good photographers that were once here.

That said, imo, nicely put.

But yeah, I seem to recall this thread is like ancient.


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## Gaerek (Sep 18, 2010)

KP007 said:


> Go take a look at the " Extreme stringholding" thread if you want to see defensive.
> It's a superb example of what you write.
> Take a look at that image and some of the critique praising it.
> I know you thought you were playing up to the big boys on the forum with all this insight but at the same time you just threw one of them under the bus, futuristic-ally.
> ...



1. Don't bring your Bitter Jeweler hate drama here. I'm reporting you for posting off topic, baiting, and helping to bump a *7 month old thread*.

2. Bitter Jeweler has proven himself a very good photographer. I won't comment on the photograph in question, but he did say it was an experiment.

3. You came in, with your ~2 weeks of being registered here, and told him something along the lines of "It's the worst image you've seen since you've been here." That would be like me going to a concert, and after the third song saying, "That was the worst song I've heard since I got here!"

4. Bitter didn't get defensive. Read his responses to everyone BUT you. He responded the way he did because you were a d-bag to him. If you'd had 3 weeks here, instead of 2, you might know that Bitter doesn't respond kindly to d-baggery, like what you brought.

5. There was very little critique actually praising that shot. Most people were critical about either the tilt, the subject, or the strange DoF it had.

Dude, live in the real world. If you have a grudge with someone, keep it to PMs, or at least keep it to the thread it started in. You have some issues, and you aren't doing much for your reputation. Bitter, believe it or not, actually has a good reputation from those of us who've been here more than a couple weeks.

Here's a tip, don't be a d-bag, and people won't be one back. Don't confuse that with defensiveness.


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