# Anyone from Utah?



## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

This story is spreading like crazy all over the world in music forums.

Really crazy story, but looks like it's "warranted" unfortunatly.

From what I can gather, a very large electronic music event was shut down by the national guard for not having the correct "large gathering" permits. Although the promoters are saying they did have the correct permits, the sheriff's report says otherwise.

Although there is some bad press attributed to the "rave" scene in north America, it's pretty safe to say with 100% accuracy that several swat teams and the National Guard, all with assault riffles, was excessive force.

It's obvious that drugs were present and being sold in the venue. Drugs are sold in pretty much any music gathering of any genre.

I don't know, i'm used to being in Toronto where problems like this just don't exist. The "rave" scene was all legit when it happened here, and when the government realized what was going on, they just put a ban on the public venues that were being used. They also passed legislation that made it financially impossible for promoters to have large events in rented wharehouses, or other private property. The events that are held now are all in clubs.

This kind off force has never been used. And it really makes me sick to think that some innocent people were very badly hurt and seriously shaken by a situation that they had no control over.

Here's the forum that pretty much documents the incident...

http://forums.utrave.org/showthread.php?t=19971 

and here's the only video that seems to be available at this point. From what was said all other video's were confiscated by enforcers...

http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html


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## Andrea K (Aug 22, 2005)

i dont really see what the problem is if i even understand what was going on...armed police officers shut down an illegal event, where illegal drugs were being used and sold...i have no problem with this. perhaps i dont understand what happened completely :scratch:


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

From what the promoters have said they had all the right permits. It was completely legal event on a rented private property. They had a 2million dollar insurance policy, and were paying their taxes on the event. Even EMS was properly contracted out for medical purposes.

Drugs were being sold in the event dispite security checks. After it was discovered by undercovers that drugs were being sold they moved in. 

The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out.

The video here shows atleast twenty national guard with assault riffles beating atleast two people.

I'm sorry, I just think the music and it's supporters have recieved far to much of a bad rap. There are people "trying" to make a LEGITIMATE living from this kind of music.

It's far to similar to what happened when rock became popular in the 60's. First is was completely banned. Then it became the soundtrack to massive peace movement. Why? because people were stoned and high on acid?

Different drugs, different kids, different music.


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## Andrea K (Aug 22, 2005)

"The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out."


it only makes sense for the police to be armed. regardless of whether the people at the event were armed or not, the police didnt know that. essentially this was a drug bust, would you expect cops to storm into a crack house to bust the people inside without guns? 

from what i've seen and heard, people who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol tend to become aggressive very easily, so it does make sense that the police would be no-nonsense about the event and have guns...its not like they came in and no one was armed and started shooting people. they simply came prepared

and do you honestly think that if they politely asked the promoter to turn the music off and ask everyone to leave people would actually listen. come on now


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

andreag5 said:
			
		

> "The point seems to be that the force used to shut down the event was far too excesive. These aren't armed people. They're not aggresive people. There's an account of a young girl being malled by a police dog. If the cops wanted to shut down the event, all they had to do was find the promoter and tell them to turn the music off and make the announcment over a mic. Anyone that had drugs on them could be searched by dogs on the way out."
> 
> 
> it only makes sense for the police to be armed. regardless of whether the people at the event were armed or not, the police didnt know that. essentially this was a drug bust, would you expect cops to storm into a crack house to bust the people inside without guns?
> ...


 
Yes...actually they would.

Like I said. This is an electronic music event. If drugs have been done, it's usually extacy. If you've ever done extacy, which you probably haven't (kudo's to you) then you would know that being aggresive about anything is FAR from what's on your mind.

This wasn't a "crack house". This was a music event like any other music event. Would you expect a large group of the national guard to shut down a concert? I mean yeah, extra POLICE yes. Few extra cruisers, a paddy wagon and armed (with regular handguns and MAYBE a few shotguns to show seriousness) police is necessary....but the NATIONAL GUARD?

These guys are wearing full army fatigues. Carying sub-machine guns and using tear gas and dogs. All accompanied by a helicopter. It's estimated that this whole thing cost the state 20'000$ to orchestrate.

Don't get me wrong here. I know what's going on at these events. I've been going to them for over 5 years. But the fact is this isn't some mass drug addicted infestation of American youth. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. Yes there are drugs present. There are drugs present at every club/concert in America. 

This music WILL be celebrated, lawfully or unlawfully. And it's one thing to send in an undercover and arrest the INDIVIDUALS who are selling drugs. It's a completely different thing to brutalize innocent people for just being on the same property as those INDIVIDUALS.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

two words...probable cause.

im all for busting up this crap if they even thought that drugs were there. why do people need drugs in the first place at a music event? cause they are LOSERS.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Also, their excuse for shutting down the event was "not having correct permits".


...not for a drug raid.

The actual promoters are saying they had the right permits but they were confiscated by the officers upon arrival. From my understanding of insurance companies they don't go handing out 2million dollar policies to illigitimate event promoters. Hopefully they required copies of all permits. Not only that, but the property owners would probably require copies of such permits.

Anyway, if all this shiz is false then I agree with you. The national guard have complete right to go in there. But seriously, it's never necessary to use that kind of force for a crowd of ravers, or anyone for that matter.

Imagine going to a large outdoor concert with your favourite band playing. For some reason the promoters didn't get a permit. At 11:30 PM you're jamming out when the music gets cut off. 5 minutes later you're nailed in the leg with a can of tear gas, and you're being chased by police dogs? You see a person getting malled? You see your best friend getting tazered because he refused to give up his digital camera?

What did YOU do wrong? Nothing. What did you friend do wrong? Nothing. Why are you being chased and tear gassed? Do you really want to stop and ask why?

Be realistic here. This wasn't a drug bust. These events aren't "crack houses" DESPITE what your local media might tell you. Get a clue.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> two words...probable cause.
> 
> im all for busting up this crap if they even thought that drugs were there. why do people need drugs in the first place at a music event? cause they are LOSERS.


 
So the next time you're at a concert and some guy beside you is smoking a joint are you gonna watching over your back for the national guard?

I know it's happening and I think it's wrong too. But you don't cut down the damn tree because of a few bad apples.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

i still say whatever the excuse the bust was justified. you wont convince me otherwise.

all these shows produce are pacifier sucking, neo-hippie, stoners who cant dance and have to have drugs in order to "love the world...man"


bleh.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> So the next time you're at a concert and some guy beside you is smoking a joint are you gonna watching over your back for the national guard?




your absolutely correct.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> i still say whatever the excuse the bust was justified. you wont convince me otherwise.
> 
> all these shows produce are pacifier sucking, neo-hippie, stoners who cant dance and have to have drugs in order to "love the world...man"
> 
> ...


 
That's not true, and it seems very closed minded of you to suggest that. Pigeon holing am entire musical genre because you don't understand it is a little twisted. I can see that attitude from someone in the sixties, but I thought we were past the days when people judged a book by it's cover.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

you dont know me, you dont know my background.

ive created, performed and produced electronic music for the past 6 or 7 years of my life. now i will say that not everyone is like how i described, but most are into the scene because they are sheep and following the herd of others who came before them. its true with any genre of music.

ive been a musician for the past 16 years of my life, do not preach to me.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> you dont know me, you dont know my background.
> 
> ive created, performed and produced electronic music for the past 6 or 7 years of my life. now i will say that not everyone is like how i described, but most are into the scene because they are sheep and following the herd of others who came before them. its true with any genre of music.
> 
> ive been a musician for the past 16 years of my life, do not preach to me.


 
So why say something so sweeping and general? 

I'm agreeing with you to an extent. I too have been involved in the music directly and indirectly for years, and it's safe to say that Toronto has advanced a lot further than most states south of the border. Events are now in our major clubs. And people like myself have grown up and moved on. Or are now attending more mature 19+ events. Business people, artists, musicians, 'photographers'....we all still attend clubs to listen to the music.

10 years ago i would agree there was a huge problem, but if this event was all legit, I think the force used on these young people was a little much.


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## terri (Aug 22, 2005)

I'd like to see actual objective reporting of the event. 

I would have to agree based on what I've heard that undue force was used - but that's just from what I've read here. There may be other circumstances regarding this promotor that we know nothing about that actually provoked this "raid", you know? 
At first glance, it does look terrible. Obviously, no one goes to a concert expecting to get maced by the local law enforcement, let alone the National Guard. That's not the same thing as sending in a SWAT team to bust up a known crack house and getting those drugs off the street.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Atleast someone agrees with me here.

Like I said in the very SECOND sentence "looks like it's 'warranted'".

If proper permits were not obtained, then they had a 'valid' reason. I just think they've used a little too much force, and in the process caused bodily harm to some innocent people. Although drugs were present, you could find drugs in any group of young people in any venue, for any type of music.





...except maybe some kind of christian music.


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## JonMikal (Aug 22, 2005)

misunderstanding or not, red flags raise rapidly when local/state/federal government regulations are appartently ignored and unfortunately can go south quickly depending on the locale involved. i guess you could say this event and many like them get a bad rap because of the hords of similar events that give law enforcement agencies reason for concern....guilty of association if you will. the circumstances you outlined were unfortunate for many, but that's life...you get over it. anyone who engages in this type venue should understand, minimumly, the permit process associated. otherwise, you will bring havoc on yourself and those who attend.

4 inocent people lost their lives at the hands of our national guard in may of 1970 at kent state university because war protesters didn't follow the rules of engagement. sheit happens.....move on!


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Detailed accounts...

http://utrave.org/showthread.php?t=20020
News cast...

http://www.abc4.tv/local_news/local_headlines/story.aspx?content_id=9E880C47-B98E-4172-A5AE-9988C45CE8A7

Looks like the promoters didn't get the right permits, apparently that gun found was from the property owner. All the rest of that crap in bags looks laughable.

Some money? A pill and some money? Wow...what a drug raid.

To be honest I don't have much sympathy for the illegal activities. I just keep reading these accounts of innocent people who were attacked by dogs and cops/national guard, and it makes me sick.


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## terri (Aug 22, 2005)

No...it was _counterfeit_ money, Bace. Several weapons and more than 60 arrests.  That, plus the failure to obtain a proper permit for a group of over 250. I think they were right to move in and bust it up. 

Trust me....I'm all for maintaining the rights of innocent concert-goers, or anytime innocent people are peacefully gathered. I'm sure there were some innocent heads busted here, but this is not the Kent State incident of the 60's, either. 

Dontcha hate gray?  Such an ugly color.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

> No...it was _counterfeit_ money, Bace. Several weapons and more than 60 arrests.  That, plus the failure to obtain a proper permit for a group of over 250. I think they were right to move in and bust it up.
> 
> Trust me....I'm all for maintaining the rights of innocent concert-goers, or anytime innocent people are peacefully gathered. I'm sure there were some innocent heads busted here, but this is not the Kent State incident of the 60's, either.
> 
> Dontcha hate gray?  Such an ugly color.


 
Like I said, I've been going to these types of parties for over 5 years in Toronto, and never had to deal with this kind of treatment.

Just seems unreal to me. I'm sure their well within their rights to shut down the party with whatever force necessary, but these people are ravers?

They're not protestors. They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.

The drug policies in the U.S. just seem ridiculous, but I'm just Canadian so what do I know.


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## Corry (Aug 22, 2005)

Drug policies are ridiculous? If you ask me they need to be more strict!


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.



wow, your tact here is amazing! good work! :lmao:


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## JonMikal (Aug 22, 2005)

keep in mind that ALL law enforcement agencies are antsy today, largely because of 9/11. what may appear small and simple to you, will look of concern to them. they move and act aggressively to ascertain what they need.


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## Xmetal (Aug 22, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> wow, your tact here is amazing! good work! :lmao:



Indeed, Metalheads sort Cocaine, Ravers pop Eccy's - there's a difference.


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## terri (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Like I said, I've been going to these types of parties for over 5 years in Toronto, and never had to deal with this kind of treatment.
> 
> Just seems unreal to me. I'm sure their well within their rights to shut down the party with whatever force necessary, but these people are ravers?
> 
> ...


 Then you've apparently been attending parties that were appropriately licensed, bonded....and guarded, whether you were aware of it or not.  When everyone follows the guidelines, people can go out and let loose, and no, no one's head is going to be cracked if there's a little herb in the air. That's not what was happening here, though. 

And if you're talking about prescription drugs that sell here for twice what you Canadians are paying, then I'd agree that "drug policies in the US are ridiculous". 

But if you're talking about E, crack, crystal meth, or other street drugs, then we differ, cause I don't give a damn how manufacturers and dealers are treated.


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## Corry (Aug 22, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

> Then you've apparently been attending parties that were appropriately licensed, bonded....and guarded, whether you were aware of it or not.  When everyone follows the guidelines, people can go out and let loose, and no, no one's head is going to be cracked if there's a little herb in the air. That's not what was happening here, though.
> 
> And if you're talking about prescription drugs that sell here for twice what you Canadians are paying, then I'd agree that "drug policies in the US are ridiculous".
> 
> But if you're talking about E, crack, crystal meth, or other street drugs, then we differ, cause *I don't give a damn how manufacturers and dealers are treated.*




EXACTLY!

Terri, you're so good at saying what my brain is thinking.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

Xmetal said:
			
		

> Indeed, Metalheads sort Cocaine, Ravers pop Eccy's - there's a difference.




exactly!!!!!

i know when i play metal music, i snort coke all damn day!!!!! :lmao:  :lmao:


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## Corry (Aug 22, 2005)

Hey, what about those of us that listen to old Willie Nelson songs and smoke pot all day?


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## Xmetal (Aug 22, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

> exactly!!!!!
> 
> i know when i play metal music, i snort coke all damn day!!!!! :lmao:  :lmao:



Metallica - Enter Sandman

_Exit light, *sniff*
Enter Night!
Take my *sniff* hand!
We're off to never never *sniff* land!_

:mrgreen:


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

> Then you've apparently been attending parties that were appropriately licensed, bonded....and guarded, whether you were aware of it or not.  When everyone follows the guidelines, people can go out and let loose, and no, no one's head is going to be cracked if there's a little herb in the air. That's not what was happening here, though.
> 
> And if you're talking about prescription drugs that sell here for twice what you Canadians are paying, then I'd agree that "drug policies in the US are ridiculous".
> 
> But if you're talking about E, crack, crystal meth, or other street drugs, then we differ, cause I don't give a damn how manufacturers and dealers are treated.


 
Alright, to back peddle and be completely honest, i'm not sure the full extent of the U.S. drug laws. I agree with you in saying that those who manufacture and sell drugs should feel whatever rath they get. I don't think 1400 kids should be hearded around by a small army cause they were dancing in the same area as some petty dealers.

But that's just me I guess.


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## Corry (Aug 22, 2005)

The sad thing is, these days, a lot of the dealers and whatnot are 'kids'.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

core_17 said:
			
		

> The sad thing is, these days, a lot of the dealers and whatnot are 'kids'.


 
Agreed, and they should be charged accordingly. The problem here is that "raves" are automatically considered to be drug infested. It is assumed that everyone at a rave is a criminal. 

The sheriffs found out that the party was illegal monthes in advance. Did they inform the promoters and warn ticket holders?

No, they set up a sting operation to uncover barely any drugs some fake money, and a gun that belonged to the property owner. All were charged and right fully so.

But what about the confiscated camera's? What about the 100lb girl who was tazered for leaving peacefully? What the about the several people who were beaten for what seemed like just asking questions like "what about my car?"..."can I get my bag of BELONGINGS from MY TENT?". Since when is ok to waive the rights of all those people because of the illegal activity of the few?


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## terri (Aug 22, 2005)

> I don't think 1400 kids should be hearded around by a small army cause they were dancing in the same area as some petty dealers.
> 
> *But that's just me I guess*.


 Now, now.  No crying in baseball....OR at raves. I think we're fundamentally on the same page here. 

But let's be realistic. 1,400 kids is a lot of bodies. Toss in the some drugs and weapons and within minutes, those dancing bodies can become a mob. How else would you attempt to handle them? 

Being caught in a mob can be extremely unpleasant, as well. Your mentality can change on a dime from thinking of that small army as "fascist pigs" to "law enforcement trying to help". 

Situational awareness must rule the day.


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## Chase (Aug 22, 2005)

This sure is a fun one. While I'm sure there is a lot more to the story on both sides, I think the bottom line for me is this. If the event was deemed to be illegal (whether it be permits, drugs, etc) and the decision was made to break it up, a showing of force is the only option for the law enforcement officers to have a chance at staying safe. Even without weapons, take a group of 1,400 people that could decide to fight you, and you can guess what the outcome will be. Show enough force and they will generally decide fighting you is a bad idea.

I'm still sure there is a lot more to this story, but I can at least understand why they swarmed they way they did. Also, to imply that every one of these 1,400 people was peaceful and just trying to leave....I have trouble with that. Whenever you have that many people together, chances are there will be at least a few troublemakers.


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## photogoddess (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.



Headbanger and proud of it!  

PS - I'm also a business owner and mother of 4 well adjusted teenagers. No sniff sniff here for me.  Now who is making generalizations?


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

And honestly, these kids are from white Suburbia. Most of them would be affraid to see cop lights. They would never stick around to become a "mob". Throw a cop on the stage and announce that the correct laws were not followed and this event will be shut down, and you've solved the problem.

It's one thing to take precautions like having the swat team on site. I can understand the importance of being "prepared" in a situation like that. But this looks like they just went in there guns blazing. Watch the video. There was no warning, there was no request to have the people on site leave the property. They just went in there and stormed the place. Taking down random youths here and there. Shooting the tear gas pre-emtively. Basically they were making sure they would find drugs on people, and waiving all the rights of those that didn't to find those who did.


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## hobbes28 (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> And honestly, these kids are from *white Suburbia*. Most of them would be affraid to see cop lights. They would never stick around to become a "mob". *Throw a cop on the stage and announce that the correct laws were not followed and this event will be shut down, and you've solved the problem*.
> 
> It's one thing to take precautions like having the swat team on site. I can understand the importance of being "prepared" in a situation like that. But this looks like they just went in there guns blazing. Watch the video. There was no warning, there was no request to have the people on site leave the property. They just went in there and stormed the place. Taking down random youths here and there. Shooting the tear gas pre-emtively. Basically they were making sure they would find drugs on people, and waiving all the rights of those that didn't to find those who did.



I think this conversation is going into a place that we don't want it to... Where exactly was Columbine High School?

Have you ever seen the movie "A Bug's Life"?  There is a part where the grasshoppers don't want to go back because it seems insignificant to travel all that way and Hopper reminds them of the power in numbers.  The police see every large group this way.  All it takes is a few people to see that they outnumber the police before a small break up becomes a riot.  1,400 people is a lot of people and it would only take around 10% of that to out number the police.  Can you think of 1 person out of every ten you know that would fight back?  I know I can.


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## Corry (Aug 22, 2005)

hobbes28 said:
			
		

> I think this conversation is going into a place that we don't want it to... Where exactly was Columbine High School?
> 
> Have you ever seen the movie "A Bug's Life"?  There is a part where the grasshoppers don't want to go back because it seems insignificant to travel all that way and Hopper reminds them of the power in numbers.  The police see every large group this way.  All it takes is a few people to see that they outnumber the police before a small break up becomes a riot.  1,400 people is a lot of people and it would only take around 10% of that to out number the police.  *Can you think of 1 person out of every ten you know that would fight back?  I know I can*.



I think for me the percentage is much higher than 10.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Like I said, it's one thing to have the National Guard and police ready for anything. It's another to start dishing out violence to begin with.

People fight violence with violence right?

It's VERY common for these things to get shut down. It would come as no surprise to those people if an event was cancelled. It comes a long with the scene, and believe me, I'm sure one in ten people would be stupid enough to cause some shiz. But those people are the ones you deal with.

If you ask me, I'm personally more likely to react in violence when I see my innocent friends being attacked by dogs and tazered than if I was just asked to leave a rave. Which I know to begin with always has a possibility of being shut down.


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## hobbes28 (Aug 22, 2005)

> It comes a long with the scene, and believe me, I'm sure one in ten people would be stupid enough to cause some shiz. *But those people are the ones you deal with*.




And you can spot those out by the name tags they're wearing on their shirts?


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

hobbes28 said:
			
		

> And you can spot those out by the name tags they're wearing on their shirts?


 
Bah. This is useless. They're all criminals then. They deserve no respect? They deserve no rights? I don't care how big a group you're in when you SEE people with machine guns...you walk the other way.


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## MDowdey (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Bah. This is useless. They're all criminals then.




agreed. you are only as innocent as the people you are hanging around.


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## Artemis (Aug 22, 2005)

Im undecided, but personally I feel we attack the police too much...they are the good guys remember...


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

:roll:


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> Im undecided, but personally I feel we attack the police too much...they are the good guys remember...


 
I agree completely here. I love cops. I've never done anything Illegal...that I got caught for. And if I did do something Illegal and got caught I would deal with it properly because I know why they react the way they do. This however just seems far to overboard.

They KNEW the event was Illegal BEFORE it happened why didn't they just turn people away before hand? Stop the "Mob" from even becoming a "mob". 

No, they wanted to make this another example of why "raves" shouldn't happen. Scare the **** out of everyone there. Well, if you ask me, it's done the opposite. It's angered thousands across the country so far.


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## Chiller (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> They're not heavy metal crazy bastards.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## photogoddess (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Bah. This is useless. They're all criminals then. They deserve no respect? They deserve no rights? I don't care how big a group you're in when you SEE people with machine guns...you walk the other way.



You've heard the term "Guilt by association" haven't you? :roll:


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## hobbes28 (Aug 22, 2005)

It just reminds me of some training I went through before I was allowed to carry a firearm for a previous job.  It's a simulation where you have to respond to actual police calls called "shoot, don't shoot."  There is this call you respond to where shots have been fired near some railroad tracks.  You show up and because of the situation, you have your gun drawn ready for action.  You come out of a factory to the tracks and there is this young boy walking towards you.  He sees you and heads your way.  Since there have been shots fired, you draw down on the boy who continues to come toward you.  You yell to stop a few times and he reaches behind his back to grab something from his pocket or waist.  As soon as his hand clears his back, he is within twenty feet from you so your initial reaction is to drop him.  This decision is based soley on the call and situation since he's still coming towards you.  This simulation is based on a true police call and report.  When the smoke clears, the boy was reaching for a card that informed people that he was deaf and needed to have written instructions.  He wanted to let the police know so badly that he walked towards an officer waving a gun in his face and reached for something behind his back.  

The moral of the story is that you can never tell who you're dealing with in any given situation so they just prepare for the worst and make sure to let all involved know they are in charge of the situation as to prevent a riot.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

You people seem to be missing the whole point. It's like you're all ignoring the facts just so you can feel good about condemning a hole genre of music. This music doesn't create or support gang wars. It doesn't talk about killing your neighbour with a pitchfork. It's just dance music. There's no political agenda. There's no cultural oppression being expressed. It's just dance music.

This was treated like a hostile take over of some kind of cult. If it was an illegal event it could've been stoped before hand. Why waste all the time and money to prove a point?


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Chiller said:
			
		

> bace said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Alison (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Chiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chase (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> You people seem to be missing the whole point. It's like you're all ignoring the facts just so you can feel good about condemning a hole genre of music. This music doesn't create or support gang wars. It doesn't talk about killing your neighbour with a pitchfork. It's just dance music. There's no political agenda. There's no cultural oppression being expressed. It's just dance music.
> 
> This was treated like a hostile take over of some kind of cult. If it was an illegal event it could've been stoped before hand. Why waste all the time and money to prove a point?



I think you're missing some of the point as well, its not about the music. Its about the drugs and culture of the people that were at the event. Were the police just _lucky_ to find any weapons or drugs or did they know what they were going to find? I doubt you could find one of these events that doesn't include a large amount of drug use, and when you combine that with what appears to be the promoters not obtaining the proper  permits, why wouldn't the police go after the opportunity? If nothing illegal was going on, do you really think they would be breaking the event up just because of the style of music? Please...


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## Chiller (Aug 22, 2005)

Im not condemning any music genre at all .  I was in the metal scene for years.  We were bashed all the time.  We used to have our dressing room raided...just because of our band name. The police would always walk away scratching their heads, cause they would not find anything.  
 They way I see it, is that the police are doing their jobs. They found some illegal stuff...possible maybe even more, like guns.   But they are only protecting themselves by using the force they felt nessecary to control the crowd. 
  If for some reason a bunch had come out of that rave, guns blasting, and there were say 4(just a number) cop cars, and innocent people got hurt or killed, it could have been a more serious issue.  The police are only protecting themselves and the innocent people, who were only going there to have fun. Im sure this has happened in every music genre.
  The way I see it, if you break the law, then the police have a right to bust ya. 

  And look at it this way.  Our mayor, called the army for a snowstorm. :lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:


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## Chase (Aug 22, 2005)

Chiller said:
			
		

> Im sure this has happened in every music genre.



Very very true...we know it has happened with metal, we know what happens to raves, I'd love to hear some insider perspective on things that have happened in the hip hop scene as well.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

You don't get it.

I'm right.

You're all wrong!!! DAMNIT!

No but seriously. I know some people are going to disagree. I just hate it when they do.

It's cool though "Shoot first, ask questions later". Just gotta get used to that mentality I guess.


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## Hertz van Rental (Aug 22, 2005)

I agree with you - some people _are_ going to disagree.


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## bace (Aug 22, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> I agree with you - some people _are_ going to disagree.


 
ZING!


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## aprilraven (Aug 22, 2005)

thank you alison...and personally, been here, done this..as has most of the ones answering this thread...

i hate when people bunch others altogether as in " all of you"... i am a head banger, longer than you have been alive i would wager, base... and done more than you...lived thru more than you..and still dig metal, hard rock, soft stuff..etc..

when will you understand, its not the music...its the raves... its not new, no matter how much you youngin's like to think it... we did it in the day day.. it was called other stuff..but not new...guess what... it would be shut down then, too... if you resisted, stuff happened... and you knew if it was planned, the local cops knew about it too..the spur of the moment parties out in the woods or old warehouse, you could get away with it for a while....but as other people have mentioned, its life, and a group doing things that are illegal, get caught everytime...especially when your talking about raves...this doesnt take a brain surgeon...

and by the way, i am really getting sick of the america bashing....its getting old...
you dont hear any of us bashing canada, or ireland, or where ever others come from..and i think its because we understand, goverment and the people are seperate..and as an american, i dont lump everything together...i dont hold every single canadian responsible for something another canadian does...i really wish ya'll wouldn't either.... 

i personally dont like certain laws, or rules, but ya know, as the rolling stones said, you cant always get what you want...and as of this moment in my life, the way america is, with the national guard and the police, i'll take the rules that govern here..over any other place.....


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## photogoddess (Aug 22, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> I agree with you - some people _are_ going to disagree.



Hertz - you're just agreeing _to_ disagree.


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## Hertz van Rental (Aug 22, 2005)

photogoddess said:
			
		

> Hertz - you're just agreeing _to_ disagree.


Now why would I do a thing like that?


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## JonMikal (Aug 22, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Bah. *This is useless*. They're all criminals then. They deserve no respect? They deserve no rights? I don't care how big a group you're in when you SEE people with machine guns...you walk the other way.


 


ya know bace, since you've joined, i go from i don't like ya to i like ya then back again....it's a see-saw effect. sometimes, you know how to join in with the fun, then just when it's starting to work you do this stuff. it's like if we don't see things your way, you're gonna go off. WTH is that? what does that say to us? it's like posting a pic in critique and getting pissed off if we say something negatively. you're an extreme person...thats cool, but KNOW when to curb it a little. i've said this before...your images are wonderful...your personality doesn't match it...most of the time.


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## treehuggerhikerboy (Aug 22, 2005)

I just wrote 3 paragraphs about this and erased them...bace, good job at stirring up the pot, interesting discussion.  but i would get an objective view before spouting off.  

and it's nice to see some folks that dig cops around here...usually it's the opposite.


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

JonMikal said:
			
		

> ya know bace, since you've joined, i go from i don't like ya to i like ya then back again....it's a see-saw effect. sometimes, you know how to join in with the fun, then just when it's starting to work you do this stuff. it's like if we don't see things your way, you're gonna go off. WTH is that? what does that say to us? it's like posting a pic in critique and getting pissed off if we say something negatively. you're an extreme person...thats cool, but KNOW when to curb it a little. i've said this before...your images are wonderful...your personality doesn't match it...most of the time.


 
To be completely honest, I don't even know why I was argueing my point so hard yesterday. I realized that here in Canada they curbed the rave scene by imposing laws that forced the promoters into bankruptcy.

In the US, more specifically in Utah, their approach is to raid them with the National Guard and SWAT. Scare the living **** out of a bunch of youngsters and hope they don't gather again.

After seeing that video I'd have to say that I sure as hell wouldn't go to a rave again....in Utah.

And yes, I do have a problem seeing anything anyway other than my own. Think of it as a character flaw that i'm trying to work on. Knowing is half the battle.

werd.






....now you're gonna back to liking me right?


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

P.S...

"all these shows produce are pacifier sucking, neo-hippie, stoners who cant dance and have to have drugs in order to "love the world...man""

This is what made me see red. Anything else said by anyone just read like this but with more words.

That is all.


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## MDowdey (Aug 23, 2005)

i stand by what i said...so be it.


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

Of coarse you do. Wouldn't want you to backpeddle on a gross and ignorant genralization.


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## hobbes28 (Aug 23, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Of coarse you do. Wouldn't want you to backpeddle on a gross and ignorant genralization.




Hello Kettle, I'd like you to meet Pot...



			
				bace said:
			
		

> And honestly, these kids are from white Suburbia.


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## Andrea K (Aug 23, 2005)

ouch


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## Calliope (Aug 23, 2005)

hobbes28 said:
			
		

> Hello Kettle, I'd like you to meet Pot...


 
Isn't that the truth!?


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

I think i already backpeddled enough in this thread.

HOWEVER, from MY experience, I would say the mojority of those attending raves in Toronto were white suburban kids.

And although I'm not clear on the geographics of Utah, I would guess that most of those attending that party were from white suburbia.

The reason that comment irks me so, is because I was in the 'rave' scene. Some of the most intelligent, talented, succesfull people are people I met from the 'rave' scene.

Saying that most people that attend raves are white suburban kids really isn't a generalization. It's pretty much a known fact.


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## Xmetal (Aug 23, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> ....now you're gonna back to liking me right?



You're girl portraits are your one saving grace...post more up and maybe you'll win me over.


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

hehe....I have to scan some after Sept 1st. I have a whole bunch of pics in storage at the moment.

Once I get them out, I'll be putting up a series in hopes some of you might give me some advice.

I actually have a show coming up in October, so I need to pick 10 pics. I wanna grab the best pic of each lady I've taken pics of.

Anyway, can you people stop ganging up on me. MDowdy's comment was pretty personally insulting. Wtf do you want me to do? Sit here and say...."yeah...you're right....I'm really not sure how I never noticed that soother in my friends mouth all these years."

Or that they were complete neo-hippies...? and drugs addicts?

Fu.K that.


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## hobbes28 (Aug 23, 2005)

bace said:
			
		

> Saying that most people that attend raves are white suburban kids really isn't a generalization. It's pretty much a known fact.



But saying that the people from the rave were white suburban kids so they couldn't possibly be doing anything that would warrant such police force is a huge generalization.  Are you telling me that white suburban kids don't ever cause any trouble that would require police?


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

hobbes28 said:
			
		

> But saying that the people from the rave were white suburban kids so they couldn't possibly be doing anything that would warrant such police force is a huge generalization. Are you telling me that white suburban kids don't ever cause any trouble that would require police?


 
Ah, see, there lies the confusion. That's not what I meant at all. I'm saying that most of those kids would be scared ****less to get caught. You see cops, you a)run b)dump your pockets and walk out in an ORDERLY fashion. Could you imagine how hard life would be if they didn't get to use the family suburban after school and on weekends.

(I know that's another slight generalization but I think it works in this case)

(also note that i'm from white suburbia....and I hated it when I couldn't use my parents van)


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

So yeah to clarify. I did NOT mean that they didn't "deserve" that much force, because there was obviously a lot of illegal **** going on. BUT they're not gang members with guns. They're just kids who would be too scared to get caught for anything. Wave a gun in their face and they're pissing their pants.


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## MDowdey (Aug 23, 2005)

isnt that what america is all about? gross generalizations? 

every rave ive ever been to, and yes it has been many considering my name was all over the music, has been the same cliched, stoned group of 14 year old kids. i dont care what you THINK im doing...its all about getting under YOUR skin. 

lighten up dude, seriously. i think you like having these discussions with people cause you want to be the douchebag in every conversation.


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## hobbes28 (Aug 23, 2005)

I think where you went astray is where you stopped having an open mind and were getting mad at people for the same thing.  I'm not from white suburbia, I do drive a Suburban and a van, but I still call that being a hypocrite.


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

OK....I ADMIT IT....I'M A DOUCHEBAG.









(can you say new title?)


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## bace (Aug 23, 2005)

Oh hey...you already did it.

woo ohoooo!

Atleast I'm the president of something right?


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## MDowdey (Aug 23, 2005)

nice title bace!


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## hobbes28 (Aug 23, 2005)




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## mrsid99 (Aug 23, 2005)

There's probably a very good reason why the cops responded the way they did and it's because it was Utah, there's a religion there that runs the state, the law and anything else they feel like, might have something to do with it.
 Also I wonder what you'd find if you checked 1,400 people at random anywhere?
 Drugs, fake money, false ID's etc? Good reason to shut down the subway?
 I remember the 60's and the cops then were out to simply wave their authority about, history repeating itself?


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## darin3200 (Aug 23, 2005)

pics and video


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## Chase (Aug 23, 2005)

Interesting. The video I watched showed the cops apparently walking up pretty calmly and it appeared the party goers were pretty calm as well. There were a few shots of them talking back and forth until the camera turned around to show the police restraining a few people....unfortunately, there is no telling what happened before those people were restrained. I also noticed that even though some were being restrained, the rest of the people in the background still looked pretty calm and appeared to be moving along without looking too distressed.

Overall, I stand by my previous comments. They decided to shut it down and were there in enough numbers to try to ensure safety. Chances are a few of the cops were heros and had to show off their authority and chances are a few of the party goers were also heros and wanted to try to prove something to the cops. Sounds like a pretty typical party situation to me, I've seen similar things happen in backyard parties just on a smaller scale.


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## rallyxe (Aug 24, 2005)

andreag5 said:
			
		

> i dont really see what the problem is if i even understand what was going on...armed police officers shut down an illegal event, where illegal drugs were being used and sold...i have no problem with this. perhaps i dont understand what happened completely :scratch:


 
the event was perfectly legal, they had paid thousands of dollars getting the right permits and it was on private property. When asked if they had a permit the oraniser showed the officerpartoltypeman and he then ripped it up and said "no you don't".

Apparently a few girls were molested in the portable toilets while armed officers stood outside keeping guard. "apparently" but then with these things there are bound to be rumors floating around.


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## bace (Aug 24, 2005)

I've actually been playing the devils advocate on other forums since I brought this up here.

If anyone has a leg to stand on in terms of legality, i'm sure it will all surface.

I'll wait till then to pass judgement.


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