# Captain America Water Drops



## TimothyJinx

Ok, I know this is nothing new but I've been sick all weekend and I had nothing better to do. It was a fun exercise!

I  couldn't quite get a really clean drop - every one has a glare. Not  sure how to deal with that - I tried several different light positions/setups, etc. But I gave up after a while since my wife  was giving me some strange looks. :er:

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## PixelRabbit

Love them! Great choice in the background and reflection. 
Very well done


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## Robin_Usagani

Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss


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## squirrels

I think the glare is kind of superpowery!:thumbup:


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## PixelRabbit

Oops, replied too fast, I've had the same issue in my water drops also and have yet to figure it out, I wonder if rear curtain syncing the flash would make a difference?....even if it moves the smudges from bottom to top it would be an improvement IMHO. I have yet to try this and yours is quite inspirational so perhaps it's time to play and test the theory


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## PixelRabbit

Robin_Usagani said:


> Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss



I use onboard flash for these shots still, not sure about Timothy but from the look of his shots I'm going to guess he is also, that means my SS is 1/250 max so I suspect it isn't possible to totally eliminate it?


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## TimothyJinx

PixelRabbit said:


> Oops, replied too fast, I've had the same issue in my water drops also and have yet to figure it out, I wonder if rear curtain syncing the flash would make a difference?....even if it moves the smudges from bottom to top it would be an improvement IMHO. I have yet to try this and yours is quite inspirational so perhaps it's time to play and test the theory



Thanks PixelRabbit. I'm thinking it may be what Robin said about ambient light. It appears the same size glare is there when the drop is still hanging and when it is actually dropping. I'm ok with the actual water drop - take away the glare and it's fairly sharp especially considering this has been cropped quite a bit.


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## TimothyJinx

PixelRabbit said:


> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I use onboard flash for these shots still, not sure about Timothy but from the look of his shots I'm going to guess he is also, that means my SS is 1/250 max so I suspect it isn't possible to totally eliminate it?
Click to expand...


I used a 430ex2 off camera. But I don't have a transmitter so I have to have the onboard flash on as well. But I've tried flagging the onboard flash off of the subject but where the 430 still sees it. I'm going to give it another try.


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## manaheim

haha... that's quite cool.


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## Derrel

Robin_Usagani said:


> Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss



HSS will just make these into a blur...it's not good with high speed movement, since it's a series of very tiny micro-flashes...

I like the Captain America star in the droplet!!! looks very,very cool.


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## TimothyJinx

squirrels said:


> I think the glare is kind of superpowery!:thumbup:


Superpowery! I think you've created a new word!



manaheim said:


> haha... that's quite cool.


Thank you!



Derrel said:


> I like the Captain America star in the droplet!!! looks very,very cool.


Well, thank you very much!


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## LShooter

Very cool.


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## HughGuessWho

Water drops are fun. I like it a lot. Next time, try it in a nearly dark room, unless you intended for the background to be visible.


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## Robin_Usagani

Derrel said:


> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HSS will just make these into a blur...it's not good with high speed movement, since it's a series of very tiny micro-flashes...
> 
> I like the Captain America star in the droplet!!! looks very,very cool.
Click to expand...


Derrel.. Come on dude.. You are really saying if he shot that with 1/2000 with HSS it will be blurry?  Either shoot that in darker room or use HSS.


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## Robin_Usagani

HughGuessWho said:


> Water drops are fun. I like it a lot. Next time, try it in a nearly dark room, unless you intended for the background to be visible.



pretty sure he wants the bg.  No biggie, just make sure the star gets the flash also.


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## weepete

I like they way these are done, but I think the second shutter sync if your not going to try and remove the trails would look better.


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## pisto1981

Awesome! going to try something similar myself


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## TimothyJinx

Robin_Usagani said:


> Either shoot that in darker room or use HSS.



Help me out here as I don't normally shoot with speedlights.

First of all, the rooom is dark - a shot without the flash results in a pure black exposure.

Secondly, I'm not sure HSS is an option for me. I am using a 430ex2, which does support HSS, but I'm not using it on camera. And I do not have a TTL cable or any kind of compatible transmitter. So that means I am having to use the on-camera flash to trigger the 430ex2. When the on-camera flash is active, my highest shutter speed is 250. Without a cable or transmitter I may be stuck?

Thirdly, the drop itself seems fairly sharp so is this even an issue of shutter speed? The glare, or whatever it is, is there even with the drops that have not yet begun to fall. I think they may be some sort of glare bouncing back off of the large, very bright star on the background.


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## ryanwaff

TimothyJinx said:


> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Either shoot that in darker room or use HSS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Help me out here as I don't normally shoot with speedlights.
> 
> First of all, the rooom is dark - a shot without the flash results in a pure black exposure.
> 
> Secondly, I'm not sure HSS is an option for me. I am using a 430ex2, which does support HSS, but I'm not using it on camera. And I do not have a TTL cable or any kind of compatible transmitter. So that means I am having to use the on-camera flash to trigger the 430ex2. When the on-camera flash is active, my highest shutter speed is 250. Without a cable or transmitter I may be stuck?
> 
> Thirdly, the drop itself seems fairly sharp so *is this even an issue of shutter speed?[2]* The glare, or whatever it is, is there even with the drops that have not yet begun to fall*.* I think they may be some sort of glare bouncing back off of the large, very bright star on the background.
Click to expand...


Given that you said the room is dark, I am taking that to mean that you have no other light source (ambient light) in the room that could account for a light streak, or ghosting as they are sometimes called.
So the chances are that your light streaks are being caused by a slow flash duration. When you have it in slave mode off camera, what output have you dialled in? (like 1/64, 1/2 etc..) This may causing it, because the higher your flash output (the more powerful it is) the longer the flash duration will be. Thus possibly causing the ghosting. So the lower your output, the faster the flash duration is. 

So if you want to give it another shot, try putting both your 430ex2 and your on camera flash at the lowest possible output settings (roughly 1/128), and adjust your aperture and ISo accordingly. Then gradually increase the power outputs and see what affect that will have to your ghosting. Remember also to have No ambient light whatsoever.

2. If the room is dark, then shutter speed will not play a role in the sharpness of the image, because there is no light to record (note however that your shutter speed does need to be slower than 1/250 in order to record the flash). The flash output will affect whether you get a perfectly frozen image, or a slightly blurred image, because it is introducing light for the sensor to capture. The longer the light duration, the more that gets recorded.  

Also take a look here, a strobist tutorial on water drop tutorial with one speedlight


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## Derrel

Robin_Usagani said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much ambient light or you need faster shutter + hss
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HSS will just make these into a blur...it's not good with high speed movement, since it's a series of very tiny micro-flashes...
> 
> I like the Captain America star in the droplet!!! looks very,very cool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Derrel.. Come on dude.. You are really saying if he shot that with 1/2000 with HSS it will be blurry?  Either shoot that in darker room or use HSS.
Click to expand...


Robin. Come on dude. Get a grip on what HSS flash ACTUALLY looks like on motion. It is a series, a sequence, of very tiny flashes...in rapid succession...which will render any high-seed movement as a BLUR. So, yes Robin, for the second time in this same post, I am saying that if he shoots water droplets using HSS, that they will be blurry. High speed Synch is NOT one, single flash. High Speed Synch is a rapid pulsing of many very tiny flash events, at up to as fast as 199 Hertz. Before you joined TPF, we had a member who had absolutely disastrous results on a whole afternoon's worth of strawberry-dropped-into-water shots done with his Canon 1D Mark III and 580 EX-II and High Speed Synch. All his shots were....blurry..and he could not figure out why because he had used High Speed Synch, thinking it meant it was for high-speed events, like splash photos. Or, like my friend Steve, who repeatedly shot a bird landing on his bird feeder,using HSS, and called me up and showed me the pics on the web and asked me why the wings were so...blurry.

Robin.. Come on dude..


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## Robin_Usagani

Lol.  If i set my flash to HSS and the shutter is slow... Of course it will be blurry.  I was simply saying if you have the shutter at high speed and you are only capturing a falling object, it will be sharp.  Go shoot a falling object at 1/2000 or faster, probably pretty sharp (flashed or not).


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## Derrel

For advice, the OP ought to listen to ryanwaff's suggestions in post #19, and ignore those who do not understand the technology or the science of exposure and lighting. Well-meaning but misguided technical advice is plentiful in today's internet age.


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## TimothyJinx

ryanwaff said:


> Given that you said the room is dark, I am  taking that to mean that you have no other light source (ambient light)  in the room that could account for a light streak, or ghosting as they  are sometimes called.
> So the chances are that your light streaks are being caused by a slow  flash duration. When you have it in slave mode off camera, what output  have you dialled in? (like 1/64, 1/2 etc..) This may causing it, because  the higher your flash output (the more powerful it is) the longer the  flash duration will be. Thus possibly causing the ghosting. So the lower  your output, the faster the flash duration is.



Right. I have the 430 set at 1/64 which I think is the lowest it will go. If there is a way to set it lower?


Just as an experiment, I shot one with flash (1) and another  with high ISO and constant light (2). I realize there are color and  focus issues here but no matter...

1. 

f/4.5, 1/50, ISO400


2.
f/4.5, 1/1000, ISO6400


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## Robin_Usagani

Sighh.. You are truly an ass derrel. Nothing I said was wrong. You are just a troll.


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## o hey tyler

This was taken with HSS. 1/1250s


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## Trever1t

very cool, I've never tried this!


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## TimothyJinx

Did a new experiment in a different environment. The original images were shot in my kitchen sink and I may have had sunlight coming through the miniblinds and causing the glare - not sure about that. So I set myself up in the basement and tried again. I still have ambient light - the overhead lights are on but no windows. I also don't have the same kind of water drops. I poked a hole in a plastic cup and clamped it to a light stand. But the results are quite different. 

1.
2.
3.


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## Robin_Usagani

No macro lens eh?


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## Derrel

Robin_Usagani said:


> Sighh.. You are truly an ass derrel. Nothing I said was wrong. You are just a troll.



I actually PM'd the original poster and provided him with a flash duration table for the 430 EX-II, and gave him my evaluation of an ambient light check test photo he had done. His original setup has NO ambient light to speak of Robin...just a tiny little spec of ambient light at the far,far top of the frame. As I told him 99.99% of the "ambient light" registered as jet black. I actually took the time to look up the tech specs, and to send them to the OP,so he would have some precise flash duration times, for better technical understanding. Did you do that? Did you provide the OP with any off-line assistance?

You calling me an ass Robin is amusing. Basically the flash mode you told him to use is a repeating-flash mode. You are obviously very uninformed in the technical aspects of photography, since you continually suggest using repeating, long-duration HSS flash "pulses" as a way to try and get stop-motion images of falling water drops.


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## Juga

too many rabbits in this thread


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## TimothyJinx

Robin_Usagani said:


> No macro lens eh?



I actually tried it with my 50mm f/2.5 macro but I was getting chromatic aberrations, though I can't remember what my aperture was set to at the time. Either way, I like the image my 70-200 was giving me.


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## Onerider

I have had good luck using bulb and manually triggering the flash. My flashes will go to 1/128 though. 1/64 should also work . The only time I showed trails like that was when there was too much ambient light. I was using iso 100-400 if I remember correctly. Here's a link that may help. http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/tips-and-trick/water-droplet-photography/.


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## TimothyJinx

Onerider said:


> I have had good luck using bulb and manually triggering the flash. My flashes will go to 1/128 though. 1/64 should also work . The only time I showed trails like that was when there was too much ambient light. I was using iso 100-400 if I remember correctly. Here's a link that may help. How to Photograph Water Droplets.



Wow, that is some serious information! Thanks for the link. So you open the shutter, wait for the drop, hit the flash and then close the shutter? If so, wouldn't you have to have almost no ambient light? How do you see the drop?

I'm pretty happy with the results I ended up with (see post #27) - especially since this was just for my own entertainment!


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## Onerider

I have a 60 watt light under the table. Not enough light gets to the lens to effect it but enough for me to see the drop. I also have some type of light blocker around the setup. I'm thinking about getting a water drop setup from Cognisys. http://www.cognisys-inc.com/home_cogn.php?osCsid=cad6cfd92ebb10debc380cd02a49f694


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## TimothyJinx

Onerider said:


> I have a 60 watt light under the table. Not enough light gets to the lens to effect it but enough for me to see the drop. I also have some type of light blocker around the setup. I'm thinking about getting a water drop setup from Cognisys. Cognisys Inc - Capture the Hidden World



Wow. As a new photographer I am amazed everyday at the various specialized fields people are into. Unbelievable.


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## Robin_Usagani

Here are a few I just did.  Hand held, focus was all over the place, HSS, shutter was 1/2000 or faster.  Unfortunately since this is handheld, I had to burst the shot so I had to lower the flash power so I can fire it consecutively.  Because of that I had to bump up the ISO.  If I had used a tripod and keep adjusting the focus, I can probably shoot it at lower ISO and get better timed shots.  I have no idea what derrel is talking about.


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## _amass

Very awesome! Also, I wouldn't worry about the glare, I personally think it makes it look cooler. Haha


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## jake337

Robin_Usagani said:


> Here are a few I just did.  Hand held, focus was all over the place, HSS, shutter was 1/2000 or faster.  Unfortunately since this is handheld, I had to burst the shot so I had to lower the flash power so I can fire it consecutively.  Because of that I had to bump up the ISO.  If I had used a tripod and keep adjusting the focus, I can probably shoot it at lower ISO and get better timed shots.  I have no idea what derrel is talking about.
> 
> View attachment 44292View attachment 44293View attachment 44294





Sorry, those don't seem tack sharp to me.


Anyways if one is wanting to do water drops they should not need HSS.  They should have control over their ambient because they are using a setup.  Especially if you are in a dark room.  


Yes it is possible to use it but why would one need to?  Outdoor water drops shooting into the sun?


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## Dracaena

Nice job!


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## Robin_Usagani

Like i said, my focus was all over the place and iso was high. If I really want to get a nice shot, pretty sure I will use a tripod and nail the focus.  No ambient light with flash is the way to go for sure.


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## TimothyJinx

_amass said:


> Very awesome! Also, I wouldn't worry about the glare, I personally think it makes it look cooler. Haha





Dracaena said:


> Nice job!



Thanks!


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## Ballistics

How the hell are you doing this without a macro lens?


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## TimothyJinx

Ballistics said:


> How the hell are you doing this without a macro lens?



Used my Canon 70-200 f/2.8. The first three pics were at 120mm, the later three were at 200mm. Just got as close as I could and still get focus, about 4'. Then cropped in post.


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## Ballistics

I have the nikon equivalent and I can't seem to get this to work. Do you just have a poster in the sink?


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## TimothyJinx

Ballistics said:


> I have the nikon equivalent and I can't seem to get this to work. Do you just have a poster in the sink?



It's actually a plastic toy shield leaning against the wall behind the faucet. There's maybe a foot or 15" between the drops and the background, about 4' between the drops and the lens.


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## TimothyJinx

Wanted to try one more thing before I move on to some portraits tomorrow and next week. In hindsight I wish I had done black trim and background but it is what it is. I also snapped a picture of my setup if it interests anyone.

1.


2.

3.


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## Olympus E300

For what it's worth to the OP, I've been hanging out in this forum for a couple of years now.  Derrel was on the scene when I first arrived.  While I can't offer the OP any sound advice for his situation, I can lend my support to Derrel.  From what I have seen over the years, Derrel has most always been professional, polite and helpful.  He seems to have quite an indepth understanding of this whole photography thingy.  Not to step on anyone's toes but to call Derrel an ass is probably uncalled for.  He's only got nerarly 5000 "likes" under his belt...

Just saying... That's my $0.02.


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## EDL

Well, for what it's worth, I am with Derrel on this, especially after reading this:  High Speed Shutter vs. Ordinary Flash Sync


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## Overread

This video might help some with the flash duration and such concepts:






sadly it doesn't go into too much detail on the effect of highspeed sync and action; however I have to second Derrels point that highspeed sync creates blur when used on high-speed subjects.


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## Robin_Usagani

That doesnt change the fact he is an ass.  Yup.. Thats a good way to measure someones character, how many likes someone has. I do like the like system, to count it is silly I think.


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## TimothyJinx

All this over a few drops of water.


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## Robin_Usagani

Here you go derrel fans:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/328762-water-drop-hss.html


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## Derrel

Robin_Usagani said:
			
		

> Here are a few I just did.  Hand held, focus was all over the place, HSS, shutter was 1/2000 or faster.  Unfortunately since this is handheld, I had to burst the shot so I had to lower the flash power so I can fire it consecutively.  Because of that I had to bump up the ISO.  If I had used a tripod and keep adjusting the focus, I can probably shoot it at lower ISO and get better timed shots.  I have no idea what derrel is talking about.
> 
> View attachment 44292
> 
> Blurry. Not round. Shows motion blur, as I predicted it would.
> 
> View attachment 44293
> 
> Blurry. Sorry Robin, just as I predicted.
> 
> View attachment 44294



In your last picture you show us a nice *stroboscopic* effect, but it does not stop or freeze the motion...just as I said it would not. HSS is a series of very rapid flash micro-bursts, up to 199 flashes per second, according to the Canon website. You can see here that no motion has been "stopped", or frozen. Exactly as I stated. I can see 15 discrete background images here...this water is not frozen, as you stated it would be using HSS. It is rendered exactly as I predicted...a series of very,very rapidly-paced micro-flashes were emitted, turning this into over an inch-long rendering. "stroboscopic rendering"

Your personal attack in this thread Robin, with you calling me an ass,as well as your beginning of a new,separate thread with some calculations, but none of these blurred photos to support your calculations...weak sauce.

Your photos above proved that I was right, and you were incorrect. Sorry, but your very own photos demonstrate that your technical knowledge and understanding of Canon HSS flash is faulty.

HSS flash is sequential, micro-burst flashes that a fired over a relatively looooooong duration, in order to make the flash last for the entire duration the mechanical focal plane shutter is traversing the film plane. 

What a person wants to do in trying to render high-speed motion utterly stopped, as in *frozen*, is to use a SINGLE, very brief-duration flash. This is normally accomplished by using AUTO-thyristor flash, fired at low fractional power, usually between 1/16 and 1/128 power, which fires a very short,duration flash of as brief as perhaps 1/64,000 second. Your first two, blurry images prove that I was correct, and you are not fully aware of how HSS actually works, *in the real world.*


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## LexxFalcon

I... cannot help one iota with the technical details, but just had to pop by to say I love the subject matter. (Teeny bit of a Marvel fanboy over here!)


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