# Kodak HIE Exposure



## JamesD

Okay, so I've bought a roll of HIE, and I'm planning on loading it into the AE-1P as soon as I have it in my hot little hands.  So, reading the datasheet, it doesn't really give an ISO setting, instead referring to varying levels of IR in the scene.

Well, duh?

Then it says that if you're using a #25 in daylight (which I will be) to use EI 50--with a handheld meter.  Then, there's a note saying that for a camera with TTL metering, and a filter, use EI 200.

So, I use EI 200, right?  And if it's EI 50 with a #25 (and a handheld) and EI 80 without a #25 (but with a handheld) then with TTL but no #25 it should be EI 320, right?  Two-thirds stop increase in film speed.

Don't even get me _started_ on development times.... I mean, I use T-Max.  Like, WTF, dudes?  I mean, exactly _what_ is a "contrast index"?  I just want pictures of white trees for crying out loud!

:scratch:


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## mysteryscribe

Now i know why that poop never interested me at all.   That kind of thing is my worst nightmare...


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## terri

Hush, Charlie. You're being a downer. 

James: I don't know what a contrast index is, either. :sillysmi: And guess what? I can still shoot and develop the stuff just fine without that apparently precious tidbit of info. 

I get impatient with things that are offered up that still leave me feeling confused. Word: cut the crap. :x

Okay James: here's what I do. I rate it faster than the so-called recommended times. (But then I don't mind grain, so if you do, you may not even like HIE, you may like some other IR that's tighter.) I shoot it just under 400, with a #25 red filter, and meter TTL. 

I also ignore the blurbs I've read about focus issues, because I've never encountered any. Now, I've not done much close-up work with it, but from a reasonable distance without being set on infinity, I still have yet to have a focusing issue. Your results may vary. And HIE is soft and grainy, anyway. 

Try the following:

Rate: ISO 360 or so

Use: #25 red filter (you can meter TTL)

Bracket: every shot 

Load & unload: total darkness; they're not kidding  

Develop: TMax developer, 1:4, room temp (75 deg recommended but no higher), and HERE IS THE KEY - only ONE agitation per minute, 3 inversions at the very start, one inversion per minute ONLY - for 6 minutes total. 

Most people consistently overexpose AND overdevelop HIE and then think the stuff sucks, blocked highlights, no shadow detail, etc. 

And note in periods of high infrared - high sun or a subject with lots of greenery (landscape) - ALWAYS use your exposure compensation wheel and shoot at 1/2 X. Essentially, you're shooting at a higher ASA while keeping it rated at 360. We always bracket between 1/2 X and 0. 

HIE likes to be shot when the sun is high - the time most people are avoiding cause they want those "golden hours". 

That said, I've shot in all kinds of weather, too.  

HIE is like anything else in photography - study a bit, then find out what works for you by shooting the stuff! 

Here's a focusing example: this one was taken with a wide angle lens about 12-15 feet in front of the building. Actually I had to lay on the sidewalk.   Note that it's an overcast day (reduced radiation) but there is still that unique glow. I knew I'd get distortion in the building this close, but I wanted it. 








And this one I was able to focus on infinity with a fast shutter, and I had bracketed this one with the exposure compensation knob to either 1 or 2x:






 It's grainy, but focused.


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## mysteryscribe

I am I am and I know it lol..... Nice shots by the way


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## terri

mysteryscribe said:
			
		

> I am I am and I know it lol..... Nice shots by the way


 thanks! They are few and far between these days.....


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## airgunr

I've shot a couple of rolls of the Kodak HIE awhile ago. As I remember you select the ISO based on the developing style you will use. I used standard E-6 slide processing that you can get done at any developers.

Based on E-6 processing you then check the sheet in the box and I believe it tells you to set your ISO to 200. (It may have been ISO100 but it will say on the sheet).

Set the ISO on your camera and shoot away. You can use the internal meter on your Canon. I think you should have a "RED" mark on your lens as a focusing indicator for the Infared film.

You might want to experiment with Yellow and Red filters on the lense to give bright blue skys and water.  MAKE SURE YOU LOAD AND UNLOAD IN TOTAL DARKNESS!!!!!!!


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## Jeff Canes

airgunr said:
			
		

> I've shot a couple of rolls of the Kodak HIE awhile ago. As I remember you select the ISO based on the developing style you will use. I used standard E-6 slide processing that you can get done at any developers.-----



i think that was EIR your used it color IR, HIR is b&w IR


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## terri

Jeff Canes said:
			
		

> i think that was EIR your used it color IR, HIR is b&w IR


I agree, with color IR you can use either C41 or E-6 processing.


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## airgunr

Jeff Canes said:
			
		

> i think that was EIR your used it color IR, HIR is b&w IR


 
You are right.  Sorry I got confused on the nomenclature.


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## JamesD

terri said:
			
		

> And note in periods of high infrared - high sun or a subject with lots of greenery (landscape) - ALWAYS use your exposure compensation wheel and shoot at 1/2 X. Essentially, you're shooting at a higher ASA while keeping it rated at 360. We always bracket between 1/2 X and 0.


What exactly do you mean by "1/2 X and 0"?  Half a stop underexposure?  Half the exposure up to normal exposure?

Sorry, I'm just not quite clear on this one... and I got my film in the mail yesterday, so I'm a little anxious to get out and try it.


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## terri

oh, I'm sorry. :blushing: I have to bracket with my exposure compensation knob because the camera I use, the trusty old Pentax ME, is aperture-priority, not a fully manual camera. When I start to babble about bracketing shots my mind's eye just goes to that knob.  Basically yes, all I'm saying is to overexpose half a stop when bracketing. I find I will get a great negative more often from one slightly overexposed than under. But plan on minimum 3 frames per shot while you're messing with it the first couple of rolls, and keep notes so can see what works best for you when you review the negs. 

And remember to go easy on the agitation when you develop it! It's thin stuff and doesn't like over-agitation at all.


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## JamesD

Okey-dokey... I just need to run through the about 17 shots left in the AE-1P so I can load it up.  Eventually, I'll run it through the EOS system, but probably not the Rebel.  My Elan didn't arrive today (alas!) and I'm not planning on keeping the Rebel, so there's no point, really.  I think I'm gonna put it on Ebay.

Have you ever used flash with HIE?


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Okey-dokey... I just need to run through the about 17 shots left in the AE-1P so I can load it up. Eventually, I'll run it through the EOS system, but probably not the Rebel. My Elan didn't arrive today (alas!) and I'm not planning on keeping the Rebel, so there's no point, really. I think I'm gonna put it on Ebay.
> 
> *Have you ever used flash with HIE*?


Nope. Here's where I'm missing Matt Needham (ksmattfish). He ran a roll at a club with some buddies, and devised a red filter of sorts for the_ flash_, not the lens. The pictures were awesome, and I think he lowered the ISO to....100-200, maybe? I don't know. It worked, but it's been a while so I don't recall the specs. Hopefully he'll pop in soon and see this.


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## mysteryscribe

BAck in my pi days, dont laugh, they were hawking an ir camera with flash... It had a red flash.  I didn't buy one so I have no idea what the contraption was supposed to do.  Maybe shoot lovers through concrete block walls,.


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## JamesD

Let's not forget the most important part of HIE exposure:  Loading it into the freaking camera and pushing the shutter release.

I still haven't got around to it.  Tomorrow at the latest, although it's starting to get late in the day now...

I'm guessing that as the afternoon goes on, and the color of the sun warms up, the IR glow effect diminishes?


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## mysteryscribe

Wish i could help but I never shot any of the freaky stuff... LOL that was for terri


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## JamesD

<-- idiot.

There should be an emoticon for that.

There was no film in the camera, and hasn't been for weeks.  Yes, I've been taking pictures with it.

See, it doesn't have a window in the back that lets you see the roll.  And when you wind it, film in it or not, the counter goes up.

So, the only indication is the end of the film box in the holder in the back.  Which I left in when I took the film out.

So, for three weeks or so, I've been thinking I was shooting TMax 100.  In reality, I was shooting... pressureplate.

Good job, James.

Where's the HIE?


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## mysteryscribe

The worst story is to shoot a complete horse show for a couple of hundreds bucks back in the day and find that none of the film went through the camera. It is a quick lesson in watching the rewind button to see if it moves. Now they dont even have those on film cameras. Some new things might not be so great after all.

By the way I can top any stupid photographer story you have im sure.  More practice you see....


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## terri

Well, I had HIE "loaded" and ready for the weekend's shoot at the abandoned gas station......I let hubby load it for me since he was also loading the last of the 120 HIE he had into his Rollei, the night before. Only he didn't really check the Pentax ME, just handed it over to me figuring I'd check it. Which I didn't. :mrgreen: 

Bottom line: I took a lot of great shots with that pressure plate, too! Which we realized when I went to "rewind" the film.

The job itself is covered, since Brad got some great external shots of the place with the Rollei. It's no big deal on that regard. But he was ready to run himself through when he realized what he'd done (I've never liked the so-called "magic fingers" when loading that ME, so I have to be accountable for being lazy). 

I got some external shots of the place with the slide film, so there may be some Polaroid stuff in the future. And with the 645, I took several interior shots, which the contact sheet tells me have some promise. Dang, but I love those Mamiya lenses.  Being able to get inside that abandoned building was a gift.

Take heart, James! Screw ups happen. 

As long as you know you have the film in the camera, I'm convinced great things will happen.


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## JamesD

Well, I just got back, and yeah, I figured out to watch for the crank winding.  I bracketed five shots of each subject, but it was late afternoon, early evening.  So, we'll see how it develops.

It's good to know I'm not a complete idjit.  I mean, if the pros do it, then I shouldn't feel too bad. :mrgreen: 

To the darkroom!


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## mysteryscribe

This has been shot in the foot weekend for everyone lol.  Well in terri case just a graze.


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## JamesD

Wait, it gets better....

So, I go into the darkroom, and pop the canister.

Have you ever cursed gravity?  I did.  I lost my grip on the spool and it dropped to the floor.  Fortunately, I keep the floor in my closet pretty clean.  So figure, I'll get it started on the spool; as long as I don't drag it all over the place, it'll last til I can get it started, then I can carefully follow the film down by the edges, pick up the quantity that's on the floor, stand up and let it dangle while I spool it up.

Okay, no problemmo.  About 3/4 the way up, I realize it's not spooling.  I gently feel to make sure that it's alligned correctly; it is.  Then, I realize that it's wet--there are droplets of water on it.

Oh crapp!  Yes, it's fallen into the bucket of water I use as a holding tank for prints.  I do several prints in succession, drop them in the tub, and when the last one is done, I run them out to the sink and wash.

So, now it doesn't want to spool.  I get it a few more inches in, and the slack doesn't seem to be touching anywhere.  I know that it's not going in any further, so I figure, what the hey, it should be allright.  I close up the tank, and after double and triple checking (since I know I'm accident-prone today), I open the door and head for the counter.

Then it hits me:  the prints I put in the tub have been soaking in fixer.  So there are at least trace amounts of fixer in that water, which is now on the film.

Well, they're RC prints (God Bless RC Paper!  Re: our brief discussion of RC vs. FB papers the other day, Charlie), so there shouldn't be too much fix, and if it affects the negatives, then it was only the end of the roll, when the sun was going down, and the IR was probably pretty low anyway.

I hurry into the bathroom and dump in the dev.  I carefully follow your advice, Terri:  three inversions at the start, then one each minute for six minutes total.  Dump out the the fix, and in that yellow vinegar-smellin' stuff known as stop bath.  Agitate for 30 seconds, dump out.

Oh Crapp! Yes, Crapp with two "p's" at the end.  I've never seen exhausted indicator stop before.  I now know that it looks a lot like grape kool-aid.  Actually, more like grape gatorade.  I remember that lots of people don't use stop, just a water rinse (the Kodak datasheets even suggest you can do that), so I quickly turn on the tap and stick the tank under it, let it fil, and soak for a good 25 seconds or so.  Then, I dump it out.

Note to self:  never return stop to the bottle.  I keep prepared chemicals in 1-qt gatorade bottles.  I'm also fond of grape Gatorade and Kool-aid.  I reuse the Gatorade bottles for Kool-aid, too (different bottles than the chemical ones!).  The idea is scary.

Anyway, out goes the water, in goes the fix.  Now, I'm paranoid, so I mix up some fresh fixer between agitations, pour out the old and in the new.  I fix an extra minute; six instead of the usual five.  Just in case.

When the time comes, I dump the fix and open the can.  Turn on the tap and start washing.  After the tank fills, I swish the film a couple times, then take it out for a quick look.  The last few frames are overexposed, I believe, but there appear to be some good ones in further.  Back into the tank and under the faucet.

-sigh-

So, we shall see.  I forgot to mention:  the shutter in my AE-1P (oh, yeah, I accidentally poked it while fighting with the camera to get the damned cassette out in the first place; it was being stubborn.  Hopefully I didn't damage it) is cloth.  Hopefully it's IR-opaque cloth; since there appears to be stuff on the roll, it probably is.

Shutter appears to be okay.

-sigh-

Ten minutes 'til wash is done.

:banghead:  <--this _barely_ describes it.


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## mysteryscribe

So many stories that top those let me see... I bought a brand new pentax one of the first motorized ones with the auto focus pz10.  Very first job I went on I was changing film while driving to the reception.  Put my finger right though the shutter.  camera 675 new shutter 150  fifth of jack daniels black 15 ...

dropped film.  I was shooting a wedding with 220 film in a kowa 6 (leaf shutter you know)  and when I removed the film I fumbled it.  Tried to catch it and got the end.  24 pre wedding shots of the bridal party down the tubes.  I never bought another roll of 220.  Oh god I got a million of them.  Hey this is fun we can start a game show... who is more stupid me or any other living photographer.


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## JamesD

WHOO!  Thanks to my liberal (metered +/- 2 stops) bracketing, I've got useful shots!

Did I mention that I forgot to follow your exposure advice, Terri?  I metered at ISO 200 instead of 360.  Blegh.  That's less than a stop of difference, though, so with the liberal bracketing, it should be allright.  Trees are noticibly denser than the sky in the negative, so I'll take that as a good sign.  We shall see.

By the way, the film still smells like the canister does, slightly vinegary, in a wierd, not really vinegary sort of way.  Is it normal for the negatives to continue to smell like that?  And this is the first film I've seen with a completely transparent film base.  The edge printing looks a little thin; is that normal?  And it seems so _flimsy_.


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## mysteryscribe

stuff sounds like the old panatomic x.  now that stuff was thin...


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## JamesD

We should start a "photogaphers' mishaps" thread somewhere, if there ain't one already....


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## mysteryscribe

Are you kidding? How many photographers here do you think are secure enough to admit that they EVER made a mistake lol. God I love this little place on the forum. Nobody ever sees my rambling.

So far as I know, Im the only person who ever posted a picture, said it was crap, and that I couldn't make it any better, but posted it simply because I had worked so hard to make it less crappy. LOL


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## JamesD

Well, there's at least three here.

Side note... I'm in the chat, and there's five people (including me) but nobody talking.  What's _up_ with that?!

Film is still drying.


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## mysteryscribe

I had no idea there was a chat...must be a fun place though....

Did you see the re enactor family shot I posted.  Im curious to see what you think of that.  It was sharp as a mutha for some reason known only to the photo gods.


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## JamesD

Photo gods? Or photog odds? Heheheh...


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## mysteryscribe

for a change just what i wrote lol usually it is typo city with me


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## terri

James: I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading all that. So here: :hug:: do what you want with that!  

I was bracing myself to read that the film had crimped badly once it had gotten wet prior to loading, but apparently you had success. :thumbup: Yeah, the film lacks the anihalation backing and is very thin stuff. Not easy to handle. I sort of hate it, actually. :mrgreen: Until I pull a great print, then it all disappears!

If you came away from all that with usable frames, I'd have to call it a success! And next time it will be SO much easier. I'm looking forward to seeing them! 

I've never been able to scan an HIE negative, btw - I have an Epson 2450 that stubbornly refuses to read those dense negatives.  You may have better luck than me, but I usually have to find time to make a print before I get any IR images uploaded here.


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## JamesD

I might have to try the neg scanner on my flatbed, then.  Usually, it sucks. Badly.  But it might work with good, dense negs.  However, I'll be scanning prints, when I get them.  I got one workable one, but the others  didn't come out.  I miscalculated the exposure, apparently.

I will tell you this:  I got at least one that's going up to 6.5 X 9.75 (biggest I can print on 8X10 without cropping).  And it's going on my wall.  It may well be my first portfolio shot.

Why didn't you tell me this stuff has awsome grain?!


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## JamesD

As for Nightmare On HIE Street....  it wasn't as bad as that roll of Forte film I had the satanically-conceived misadventure with.  I will NEVER use that **** again.  (Asterisks my own).  It bound up a foot into the roll and it yielded crap.  And everything was DRY.  It didn't wanna go into the camera right.  It didn't wanna develop right.

(In fact, I'm tempted to add a few more asterisks.  I've got a wide, creative vocabulary of them, and believe me, I applied a _lot_ of them to that **** ******-*** FortePan.)

Oh, yeah:  
  :madmad:


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## benhasajeep

Sounds like quite an adventure with this roll.

Just chalk it up as experience learned.


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> I might have to try the neg scanner on my flatbed, then. Usually, it sucks. Badly. But it might work with good, dense negs. However, I'll be scanning prints, when I get them. I got one workable one, but the others didn't come out. I miscalculated the exposure, apparently.
> 
> I will tell you this: I got at least one that's going up to 6.5 X 9.75 (biggest I can print on 8X10 without cropping). And it's going on my wall. It may well be my first portfolio shot.
> 
> *Why didn't you tell me this stuff has awsome grain?!*


I figured you knew that, I guess. For some of us, that's half the allure of that stuff.  

If you wanna get freaky with the grain, skip the TMax developer and go bold with D19. It's not for every image, but....woOt! You got grain.


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## mysteryscribe

I love it... For thrity plus years I fought to cut the grain to almost nothng.  Digital come along with zero grain, and now we all want pleasing grain.  We are just as nutty as they are lol...


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## terri

I have always liked a grainy B&W. It doesn't suit every image - portraiture and the like - but for the most part I love seeing it. 

But then, I do bromoils, so it's obvious I'm not about crisp clean imagery, anyway.


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