# Think I am giving up on Ebay for the final time



## benhasajeep (Apr 7, 2010)

They plaster things all over the place a bid is a binding contract.  And although I have never don't it.  I know from others if you don't pay they will send you nasty grams and what ever trying to get you to pay.

Well I put a bid on a camera and lens.  Ended up being the only bidder on it up to the last hour.  Then wham my bid dissapears!  I get an email from ebay stating my bid was cancelled and to see the bid history for reasons why.  So I go to bid history and nothing, nada.

So, I send ebay an email asking why my bid was retracted without my knowledge.  They basically replied the seller chose to retract my bid for one of several possible reasons (they wont tell a specific one).  But in any case, NONE of the options to cancell applied to the auction or my account (100% feedback, always paid within 24 hours, and well over 100 feedback score).  There was no notice in the auction it may be ended early or requirements on who could bid.

Basically the price was lower than the seller wanted (was a no reserve auction) and ebay let him cancel my bid so he wouldn't have to go though with the low price. :er:  Thats BS.  I know eBay has always been a sellers market.  But thats total BS they a seller can just cancel bids on a whim and not have to say why.  Ebay even stated they don't have to tell me why!  What a scam!


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## Garbz (Apr 7, 2010)

Errr. An action can be cancelled up until the point of the hammer fall. This even applies to houses sold here, so why should ebay be any different.

A bid is only a binding contract once the bid is accepted (hammer fall), and it really is a binding contract (refer to case where someone bought a yacht for about 10% of it's actual value and sued the seller to get them to hand it over).


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## ghache (Apr 7, 2010)

i never won any ebay auction. everythime i bid on something, bid is not high enought and seller cancel the auction.

i think its a common thing.


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## Big Mike (Apr 7, 2010)

So why not give the seller negative feedback?


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## TiaS (Apr 7, 2010)

I have not had that expiereinec. I have bought things for really cheap too. I have had a bid where I was told that it did not meet the revserve price though. That way I knew straight up that it was not high enough. What you are describing is not professional.


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## Romphotog (Apr 7, 2010)

you cannot give negative feedback to seller if you didnt buy nothing.  Only if seller sent item not as stated, damaged, 3 months late, etc.


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## Big Mike (Apr 7, 2010)

> you cannot give negative feedback to seller if you didnt buy nothing. Only if seller sent item not as stated, damaged, 3 months late, etc.


I was wondering about that.  

Can you possibly make a complaint to E-bay?  (not that they would necessarily care).


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## Flash Harry (Apr 7, 2010)

Its full of scam operators and crooks now anyway, apart from dealers with classified ads its not much use as a cheap supplies dept now. H


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## benhasajeep (Apr 8, 2010)

Since there was no bid and essentially the auction ended without a bid.  There will be no chance for anyone to leave feedback on the seller.

Also when you click to bid on something, in that little bid window from Ebay it states this bid is a contract to purchase the item!  They state by bidding you are entering into a contract to buy the item.  Not once you have won!  But by bidding and if you win you are to pay.  

So how is it they can hold a bidder to a contract, but the seller can just quit when he feels like it?  Thats what pisses me off.  Especially since the seller did not state the item was for sale locally or requried special seller approvals of bidders (which eBay does allow with a process).  I know there are slime bags on ebay and craigs-list.  Hell they have basically replaced pawn shops as a way to sell stolen things.  But there are good sellers on there as well.  It's just I think eBay does a poor job of trying to get rid of the bad sellers, because they still make money off them.


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## UUilliam (Apr 8, 2010)

I use ebay a lot and have never had a problem, always had pleasant transactions, Infact I  bought a 180cm 5in1 reflector from a hong kong dealer (didn't realise it was in HK at first) but surprisingly it only took a week / 2 weeks to come through, free delivery (bought my omni bounce diffuser cap from them too.)
(came through today.)


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## Garbz (Apr 8, 2010)

Flash Harry said:


> Its full of scam operators and crooks now anyway, apart from dealers with classified ads its not much use as a cheap supplies dept now. H



I would disagree on both accounts. Well actually not quite right, but I'd disagree on one and defend them on the other.

The defence: Any sufficiently popular medium attracts scams, and crooks. Telephones, email, craigslist, all have their share of scams. Fortunately ebay scams are easy to spot and paypal as bad as it is has a very buyer oriented bias on any disputes. 

The disagreement: ebay still provides low cost dealers with classified ads. How does this make it not good as a cheap supplies dept now? Just because the specific things you're after don't get sold doesn't mean that it's not the cheapest place to buy Hoya and B+W filters, or that you still get some good auctions (I bought a Nikkor AI-S 50mm f/1.2 for $300AU), and even some rarities (Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2 was sold for about $5000 there only recently). 

That and I bought a USB->LPT adapter the other day for a whole $2.30AU inc postage. 


It's sad to see such negative remarks for what is essentially just another place to trade. Scams and negative experiences are just another part of a life where you ultimately spend time dealing with f-wits.


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## white (Apr 8, 2010)

I think the seller has the right to cancel the auction if the item is not getting high enough bids. Hopefully in the future that seller will begin with a higher initial bid. 

It is my understanding that there is no binding contract until auction's end.


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## benhasajeep (Apr 8, 2010)

white said:


> I think the seller has the right to cancel the auction if the item is not getting high enough bids. Hopefully in the future that seller will begin with a higher initial bid.
> 
> It is my understanding that there is no binding contract until auction's end.


 
Straight from the ebay bid box -

*By clicking on the button below, you commit to buy this item from the seller if you're the winning bidder.*








*You are agreeing to a contract -- *You will enter into a legally binding contract to purchase the item from the seller if you're the winning bidder. You are responsible for reading the full item listing, including the seller's instructions and accepted payment methods. Seller assumes all responsibility for listing this item. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




As for the auction price being too low. Thats what minimum bid, and reserve auction options are for. But you have to pay more to list an auction that way. And some feel may not get as many bidders if you start it too high. So, they bend the rules for the sellers letting them get out of too low auctions if they complain to ebay they want to remove a buyers bid. Obviously it goes both ways I am sure alot of buyers don't pay after bidding. If that happens I believe eBay allows the seller to relist for free. So, eBay is out revenue that way. So, they keep the sellers happy and the buyers - who cares!

I am just going to lay off ebay for a while.  Wait till I get all my current purchases before I decide to close the account or not.  But right now I think I am tired of it.  It's getting to be a pain to sort through the cheap china junk, and all the mass listings from mega sellers just to find what I am looking for.  Think I will just stick with Keh.  Prices really are not that much different between ebay and Keh unless you happen upon a deal where not many bids (like in this case I am mad over).  Think I am just tired of them.  As for eBay it's their tough luck too all though just a drop in an ocean, they will miss the revenue from my purchases.


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## benhasajeep (Apr 8, 2010)

herry.james said:


> In these tough times there's no way you should be pressuring your father to buy you games you won't even be using. Buy them yourself if you want them that badly.


 

I have no clue what you are talking about???


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## Garbz (Apr 10, 2010)

benhasajeep said:


> *By clicking on the button below, you commit to buy this item from the seller if you're the winning bidder.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read that line again. At no point does it mention an obligation of the seller. You have an obligation to pay if you win, and only if you win. The seller is under no obligation to keep the item on ebay, or to continue your contract until the point of the auction ends.

This is basic contract law. You need an offer and an acceptance. This offer here is conditional on a deadline like it is with all auctions. The contract gets null and void if seller pulls out before the deadline.


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## sinjans (Apr 10, 2010)

Ebays balls--------Your mouth. Thats just how it is.


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## Garbz (Apr 10, 2010)

benhasajeep for someone who doesn't seem to understand contract law as it applies to auctions, you have a very inappropriate signature. Maybe you should google some terms like "invitations to treat", "offer and acceptance", and "revocation of offer".

By the way as a buyer you have the same right to retract the bid as the seller has to retract the offer.

Or we can just keep claiming that ebay is evil when the simple fact is you don't know how auctions work legally.


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## Fedaykin (Apr 11, 2010)

I only buy Buy it Now and from Top Rated sellers, precisely to avoid such problems and others. Even then I still save a lot of money by buying on Ebay. For example I'm getting my first DSLR, a Canon Rebel XS with 18-55mm kit lens brand new from an authorized Canon seller(a retail store, Murphy's camera) through Ebay for $460.


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## den9 (Apr 11, 2010)

craigslist is where its at. no shipping, no days of bidding before you can even see the product, then another few days for shipping and handling. it could take weeks before you win an auction at a good price. listing is a pain in the ass too, then getting money from pay pal to your checking account takes atleast a day.


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## benhasajeep (Apr 11, 2010)

Garbz said:


> benhasajeep for someone who doesn't seem to understand contract law as it applies to auctions, you have a very inappropriate signature. Maybe you should google some terms like "invitations to treat", "offer and acceptance", and "revocation of offer".
> 
> By the way as a buyer you have the same right to retract the bid as the seller has to retract the offer.
> 
> Or we can just keep claiming that ebay is evil when the simple fact is you don't know how auctions work legally.


 
Another eBay quote for you -

*Requirements*

Your ability to end a listing early depends on the amount of time remaining in the listing and whether the listing has received any bids. 
If there are* 12 hours or more *before the end of the listing, you can end the listing early without restrictions. If there are any bids on your item when you end the listing, you&#8217;ll be asked whether you want to cancel the bids or sell the item to the high bidder. 
If there are* 12 hours or less* before the end of the listing, your ability to end the listing early depends on whether there are any bids on the item and whether the item has a reserve price.
*Number of bids on the item*
*Can the listing be ended early?*
No bids, including no canceled bids
Yes, as long as there aren't any cancelled bids. 
One or more bids
Yes, but you must sell the item to the high bidder. 
One or more bids, but the item&#8217;s reserve price wasn&#8217;t met
No

I underlined the rule by ebay that was not followed!

I have been on eBay for over 10 years now. I have gone to several "real" auctions where I had to register and either have a bank letter or bring a certified check with me to bid. So, yes I do have a little experience with auctions - Ebay and Real ones!!!!

Not to mention my wife is in real estate and deals with property auctions fairly frequently as of late!!!


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## Garbz (Apr 13, 2010)

Ending early and withdrawing something from sale are two very VERY different things in auctions. (I actually didn't even know ebay allowed early ending of auctions)

- One indicates the seller no longer offering the item for sale.
- The other is a breach of the rules of auctions and (in Australia anyway) it is illegal to then sell the item to a registered member of that auction who wasn't the highest bidder at the time.

So still aborting an auction before it's end is a termination of the contract and perfectly legal.
Ending an auction early creates a binding contract with the highest seller at the time.


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## Romphotog (Apr 25, 2010)

An old lady was selling a baseball card.  She got I think a $500 bid on a card costing $25,000.  When she found out later how much the card was worth, she deleted the posting/withdrew it or something.  
People sell stuff in estate sales for a few bucks not knowing they are worth thousands.  I suggest you watch 'The Antique Show'.


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## Sbuxo (Apr 25, 2010)

I only do Buy Nows.


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## Joves (Apr 26, 2010)

I dont even go to Fleabay to look. I was disgusted with them a few years ago and left. As usual with many of the great things the initial concept is great and works well but, then the get successful and forget what got them there. Problem is there are far too many people using them and, until something better comes along they will get away with what they choose to.


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## eriqalan (May 6, 2010)

Haven't really had that problem and have bid on over 2,000 items - then again I bid low and don't usually win

What does upset me is "auction sniper" and other programs that you can set to bid like in the last 3 seconds so no one can respond (you put in a low preliminary bid and no one else bids on it so you don't raise that bid) - people can get really good deals as you think you have won it at a certain bid and at the last second they bid far enough above that they get the item - then turn around and sell it for more

Just shrug it off and move on - I have won enough to be happy

I have noticed that some will use ebay AND craigslist AND local advertising and when it sells craigslist they cancel the ebay item; I have also had notices from ebay when they have to close someone's account because they approach the bidders to sell it off ebay and not pay ebay fees

Yes ebay is a seller's market; they should police it better, do more to eliminate google-spamming (for example a filter relates to a size - not a camera; yet the google-spammers will say for example a 58mm filter is for Canon 50D, XSi, T1i, T2i, 500d, 550D, ... and on and on)

I wonder why no one has started a better site?


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## Garbz (May 7, 2010)

There's one thing I never understood, why not place the maximum bid you're willing to pay. Ebay auto bids. If someone else is willing to pay more for the same then sucks that's how auctions work. However by keeping your bid low and getting sniped you're ultimately letting the snipers get away with paying less then they would if you bidded to your highest point to begin with.

ebay does not place your bid as it. It'll only place your bid high enough to beat the next highest bidder. The process seems so wonderfully automatic that I'm surprised sniping is even needed. I get the feeling people aren't using the system right and thus snipers can actually take advantage of it.

The sniping apps still have a maximum bid. They just do in the last minute what ebay does automatically anyway from what I know....


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## eriqalan (May 10, 2010)

You would make a great used car salesman - always getting the most out of the customer

1) the more bids there are on one item the more people think it is worth. Insanely I can bid on 10 of the exact same item from the exact same seller and those with more bids will sell higher. Putting a high bid makes it seem more desirable so people will bid 4 or 5 times on that item before they feel it is too expensive - the same item will sell for twice as much

2) - the point of these programs is they only have to pay 50 cents, a dollar more; you might have raised you bid if it were going to be only 50 cents to a dollar more, that is why they wait until the last second

your argument is the rich man's argument - he should get the item because he has more money and can afford the sniping program; I would like to see ebay lock down bids to previous bidders in the last hour; 60 seconds between bids in that last hour

Also have you any idea how many of these last second bids turn out to not pay for the item? All they do is waste everyone's time


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## benhasajeep (May 10, 2010)

My problem with ebay wasn't the bidding process.  I would say I was a moderate buyer on ebay with about 450 purchases from them.  I happen to be a sniper.  I don't use the programs.  Just I never bid until the very end.  And only bid on items that are in my willing price range.  I don't get caught up in the competition thing like people can.

My complaint was they allowed an auction to be terminated against their own rules (posted rules anyway).  They would not answer my question on why it was allowed to be cancelled contrary to the listed rules.  They said contact the seller.  Who would not reply to me.  Then ebay themselves stopped replying to my questions / complaints!


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## usayit (May 11, 2010)

Much of what is said would be resolved if ebay would implement a "real" English auction.  Most importantly the part that the auction continues on with no end until the highest bid survives any higher bids.   This would benefit both sides:  Sellers would get true highest price for said item rather than just how high the bid got in the last seconds.   Buyers always get a chance at the bidding higher.... rather than who can snipe.  New incoming buyers would be coming into a more familiar bidding style that is most known and common.


With that said.. I have better things to do with my time.  I usually just keep bidding what I think the item is worth and leave it be.  I almost always eventually win.... eventually.


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## Garbz (May 12, 2010)

Would never work. This relies on each buyer being in the room at the same time looking at the same piece with intent to buy. The idea would be nice but doesn't scale well internationally over the net. To get maximum gains the delay for the hammer fall would need to be quite long, and if there's last minute activity it could significantly prolong the auction.

The time based system with ebay acting as your agent gets maximum sales anyway. With the current system buyers do have the chance to bid to their reserve price. Ebay handles that for you. That's why if you see an item that currently has $10 but your reserve is $100, then enter $100 in the window and click bid. Sniping only works against people who don't know how ebay works. If the sniping software 1 second from the end bids a max of $90, you will still win thanks to ebay automatically raising your bid, if the sniping software was set to $110 then you lost but you should have lost in a real world auction anyway, or you have no real concept of reserve price and are bidding emotionally (bad thing to do).

Sniping should have absolutely zero effect on you if you have a reserve price and use it appropriately.


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## usayit (May 12, 2010)

Garbz said:


> Would never work. This relies on each buyer being in the room at the same time looking at the same piece with intent to buy. The idea would be nice but doesn't scale well internationally over the net. To get maximum gains the delay for the hammer fall would need to be quite long, and if there's last minute activity it could significantly prolong the auction.



It would work if the time period which expires the high bid to the winning bid is required to be greater than 24 hours.   So the highest bid A and the count down starts.   Someone comes in and bids A+1 and the countdown restarts.  So on and so on....   If the final bid A+100 is made (lets assume its the high fair price) and no one within a 24 hour period makes A+101, then the winning bid is A+100.  That's the true high bid... not just what happens to be sniped at the end.  It is what everyone is familiar with (hence friendly to new members) and levels the playing field between those that are savy enough to snipe and those that are not.  

In a live auctioneer driven event, the highest bid is made and he tries to get more bids to come in.  Once he feels that there is no interest in placing a higher bid, he starts saying "Going once, Going Twice, Sold!"   Its no different, simply have the auctioneer start at 24 and count down every hour.

My only guess why Ebay doesn't want to host such type of auction is that they won't be able to control the amount of data hosted per given time.  An item originally placed up for auction can go on for a few days after the supposedly end of the auction.  This can mean an item that was posted for 4 days can be extended several days accruing more operating/hosting costs but Ebay itself doesn't necessarily make more $$$.   





> Sniping should have absolutely zero effect on you if you have a reserve price and use it appropriately.



Here's the problem with the last part of your statement.  This only works in an ideal world when users are all using the high bid appropriately.   In the real world, people who have lives and better things to do end up feeling frustrated because of the sniping.  Can you blame them when Ebay allows buyers to set the increment to $1?  I can't tell you how many of these "Ebay == frustration" threads pop up all over the internet.  The most often answer in those threads are simply.... "You need to snipe"... Oh and here's the website to download the app.   

I have to admit.. Many years ago when I started on ebay, I too was frustrated because I was wasting time counting down the last seconds.  As a seller, I was frustrated because I couldn't capitalize on the bidding frenzy that occurred towards the end.   That's when I decided.. heck... just flow with it.  "Bid and forget.. "   Unfortunately, I don't sell much on there anymore because often I can get better return if sold locally.


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## Shooter1 (May 12, 2010)

I have no idea if the following link will be viewable for non members but it sure was and eye opener for me. 

Discussion Forums @ Nikonians - Beware of eBay and PayPal


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## Garbz (May 13, 2010)

Yes I suppose it would have an impact of sorts on the seller, but the buyer is still protected from sniping by using the system ebay has in place. 

If the ability to bid by $1 means you're upset that your $100 "reserve" price was beaten by $101, then you didn't set your reserve price. If you were willing to pay $102 then the original bid should have been $102. 

As a side note I have typically always bidded an odd number for this exact reason. If someone sets their high bid at $50, but I set mine at $53, well all they know is that the bid has increased to $51 and that my reserve is still higher than theirs. Good trick to do since a LOT of people will bid even numbers like $50 or $75.


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## dhilberg (May 13, 2010)

I think people on eBay get caught up in the competition during bidding and just "have to win" regardless of the cost, which is where sniping comes into play. If you just want to buy something, set your maximum bid to the highest you're willing to pay. eBay takes care of the bidding automatically. If you don't "win" that just means you didn't overpay for something. 

I don't buy much on eBay, I can usually find what I'm looking for on Craigslist. But when I do eBay, I don't bid until close to the end of the auction (within the last few hours or so). It helps keep the price down.


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## Don Kondra (May 13, 2010)

I agree, don't bid till close to the end and bid the max you are willing to pay.

Most times I use the "buy it now" option for smaller stuff. Recently I needed just a quick release mounting plate for my ball head. Price including shipping was $34.95

In this case the brick and mortar stores did not sell just the plate.

Cheers, Don

BTW - twice I've been ripped off by sellers with a 100% rating and Paypal fully covered it.


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## Garbz (May 14, 2010)

I'm cautious when I see 100%. In my experience there should be enough outright stupid buyers out there to drive things down to 99.something%

100% satisfaction means nothing when there's only 2 past sellers.


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