# Pricing



## lennon33x (Jan 6, 2014)

How do you figure what your time is worth, in order to know what to charge? 

For example, I'm bidding for a job that would include an open house for a new business, plus realty shots, and then head shots of the staff. 

Then I have a toddler session coming up as well. I'm trying to figure out a way to configure what I want to charge. I will most likely set up a system through Zenfolio so that my clients can just order the prints they want, but charge more upfront for the digital copies. 

Suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## tirediron (Jan 6, 2014)

Factor in all of your hard costs (insurance, gear replacement, software, licenses, taxes, professional fees, power, etc, etc), add in the amount of money you want to make as a salary, divided by the number of hours you expect to work.   While I don't have have hourly rates for all of my work, if you reverse engineer my pricing structure, you will see that it is based on earning about $125/hour of which $35 - 50 goes into my pocket.


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## lennon33x (Jan 6, 2014)

tirediron said:


> ...add in the amount of money you want to make as a salary...



How do I determine THAT number? My career is nursing and this is supplemental income. While I admire everyone who makes the job their primarily career, mine is not that. I want to offer my clients exceptional work, and just because my livelihood does not depend on my photography, I also want my time to be valuable, and competitive.


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## 12sndsgood (Jan 6, 2014)

It's your business. How much are you worth? For me who went the same route I wanted to earn more then I did on my day job or what was the point.   I just figured up my costs for the year then decided on what my time was worth and them built in some profit on that.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 6, 2014)

Why didn't you have all this information in your business plan before you started taking jobs?


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## runnah (Jan 6, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> Why didn't you have all this information in your business plan before you started taking jobs?



Those tiny details aren't as important as watermarks and Facebook pages.


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## shefjr (Jan 6, 2014)

Probably one of the best posts for determining what you want to know. Mleek who hasn't been here for a long time did a great write up about CODB. Maybe it'll help.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/304732-finding-your-codb-your-hourly-rate.html


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## ronlane (Jan 6, 2014)

reavesce said:


> tirediron said:
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> > ...add in the amount of money you want to make as a salary...
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THAT number is whatever you want it to be and what your market will bare.


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## lennon33x (Jan 6, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> Why didn't you have all this information in your business plan before you started taking jobs?



Because initially I didn't plan on it being a business. And since the quality of my work is getting praise through the network (i.e. local photographers, word of mouth in my area, etc.) that I'm involved with, I want to at least present myself in such a way, and have a pricing structure. I don't want it to be, "Ohhhh, I'll do it for say....uh...um...$200" for 8 headshots, two group pictures, an open house and blah blah blah. My time is worth _something_. My best friend and his business partner are able to charge $1500 for 4 headshots and a group (I'm not sure what it was exactly, but something like that), but that's because a) they have rapport and a resume, and b) they've done it a long time. They've built upon that. I'm pretty sure that you were in at least a _similar_ boat. I haven't been paid for many shoots, but the ones I have done, the clients have been happy and I've produced quality product. Like I said, my intent was never to make it a business, but it's turned into supplemental income. 

Also, asking "why didn't you blah blah blah" does not help me move forward. That's like asking, "Why did you eat that food that had food poisoning and now you're puking your brains out?!" Not helpful. I'm here for help, and asking for people's experience and opinions in guiding others to be successful. Thanks, but no thanks


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## lennon33x (Jan 6, 2014)

ronlane said:


> reavesce said:
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Is it fair to see what other photographers in the area charge, if it's available on their websites? I'm assuming it would be, and also understanding that I would need to grade the quality and comparative nature of their work to mine.


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## Steve5D (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't think I've ever charged the same amount for any two jobs. The wedding I shot was priced differently than the album cover shoot I did which was different than the 100th birthday party I shot. 

I simply decide how much money I'd like to put in my wallet, and charge accordingly. If you're a good friend or a repeat customer, I may cut you a break. I'm doing a gig this weekend down in south Florida. The client is paying all of my expenses (food, hotel @ $279.00 a night, mileage and all incidentals). They're paying me an amount above that which I'm comfortable with for three ten hour days of work.

So, start there: What are _you _comfortable with?


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## lennon33x (Jan 6, 2014)

Let's start with the toddler session:
1 hour shoot, 1 location, 15-20 delivered final images $175


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

If that's what you're comfortable with, go with that.

I've often quoted higher prices to clients, and then I would offer them a discount for whatever reason. If I want to make $650.00 for a shoot, I'll tell the client I normally do it for $750.00 but, because it's the Winter Solstice/Easter/4th Of July/Etc, I'll do it for $650.00. The shoot still isn't "cheap", per se, but cheaper than it was, and there will always be a perceived value in the eyes of the client. They're happy to get a price break, and maybe they tell their friends about me...


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## runnah (Jan 7, 2014)

reavesce said:


> Let's start with the toddler session:
> 1 hour shoot, 1 location, 15-20 delivered final images $175



Does that cost factor in the following:

Travel costs
Editing time
Consumables (batteries, lunch etc...)
Equipment costs
Rental costs
Marketing costs
website/photo hosting
Software purchases
Taxes
and so on...


These are all the things you have to consider when figuring out your rate.


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## paigew (Jan 7, 2014)

reavesce said:


> Let's start with the toddler session:
> 1 hour shoot, 1 location, 15-20 delivered final images $175



 $175 is cheap...are you editing these files? How long do you spend during post processing? Lets see some of your current work.


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

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paigew said:


> reavesce said:
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> > Let's start with the toddler session: 1 hour shoot, 1 location, 15-20 delivered final images $175
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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

paigew said:


> $175 is cheap...are you editing these files? How long do you spend during post processing? Lets see some of your current work.



Yes I'm editing them. For the most part, Ive streamlined  in LR with presets and then go tweak blemishes/dodge/burn in PS. Depending on how complicated the shot is (or how correct I got it in camera at the time of the shot), I usually spend 2-3 hours on 20 -30 images (average)


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## paigew (Jan 7, 2014)

After viewing your work. I personally would recommend doing free portfolio building shots. This way you don't have pressure of getting specific shots or a certain number of shots.

To elaborate. When people are paying you, they expect certain shots. It seems as if the shots you shared are family snapshots and not client work. If you have never shot for a client before it can be very stressful, and subjects are not always cooperative.

For the business and headshot photos people are going to be very picky. Do you know posing basics for headshots. Shooting angles, lighting, etc?


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 7, 2014)

Like Steve5D, I have some set fees that I ask for depending on the client.  I'm all over the map when it comes to pricing, there are set asking fees I have in place for photos being bought that are being used for magazines, books, tv, or film. The final prices I negotiate depending on the number of photos being used. I have day rates that vary, again depending on how long they will take me to shoot, if it is a couple of hours, I decide based on the client. If it is a 2-3 day shoot, or a two week shoot, everything is negotiated.  I used to have set fees and stopped doing that years ago.  I ask higher than what I want and if they go for that fee great, if not then I tell them I can do it for less, which is around the number I was looking for in the first place.  I charge a different rate for editing time that is added to the final invoice, this fee is set and doesn't change.

I don't factor in what it costs me to drive to the shoot, if I buy a coffee on the way, basically I don't nickel and dime my way through shoots, I keep my overhead low, and in a lot of cases I will just eat some of my expenses.  Most of these are simply added to my monthly expense sheets for tax deductions at year end.  Everything is broken apart as far as my taxes I pay out and the taxes I charge.  I hate doing this stuff, but it is part of business.


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## runnah (Jan 7, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> I don't factor in what it costs me to drive to the shoot, if I buy a coffee on the way, basically I don't nickel and dime my way through shoots, I keep my overhead low, and in a lot of cases I will just eat some of my expenses.  Most of these are simply added to my monthly expense sheets for tax deductions at year end.  Everything is broken apart as far as my taxes I pay out and the taxes I charge.  I hate doing this stuff, but it is part of business.



No? I don't charge it back to the client unless its over 50 miles. I do keep track for tax purposes.


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

paigew said:


> After viewing your work. I personally would recommend doing free portfolio building shots. This way you don't have pressure of getting specific shots or a certain number of shots.  To elaborate. When people are paying you, they expect certain shots. It seems as if the shots you shared are family snapshots and not client work. If you have never shot for a client before it can be very stressful, and subjects are not always cooperative.  For the business and headshot photos people are going to be very picky. Do you know posing basics for headshots. Shooting angles, lighting, etc?



Thanks, I'll highly consider it


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

runnah said:


> reavesce said:
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The two items I've put in bold text are two items which I've always questioned. 

My gear and software are paid for several time over. How is charging someone for that a reasonable thing to do? Someone; Tirediron, I think, once said something about depreciation. At some point, you'll reach a point where the depreciation of the equipment levels out with the amount you're charging for depreciation. Do you stop charging for it at that point? Do you charge less? Are you charging someone for something just because they don't know better?

I can see charging for wear and tear. I know I needed to have both my 40D and my 5D repaired this summer. I think _that _type of charge is reasonable.

And I can also see putting a charge in place for consumables and meals, but I don't know that a one hour shoot warrants a lunch break...


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## kathyt (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


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I don't know about you, but I spend a large chunk of change on equipment and software. You better believe it should be included in your costs.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 7, 2014)

To be able to charge for your work I think your photos would need to get to the point of being at a professional level in quality; then you'd be able to charge the going rate for portraits in your area. I'd think about your backgrounds, try changing your vantage point to change the background that's in view behind the subjects; if you keep learning and practicing you could refine your skills to help you be successful with a portrait business. There are professional photographers' organizations that have resources available that could help you with the business aspects; I've used info. on  American Society of Media Photographers and there are others.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

reavesce said:


> Let's start with the toddler session:
> 1 hour shoot, 1 location, 15-20 delivered final images $175


20 images out of a 1 hour session??????  :scratch:


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> reavesce said:
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Would you do more or less?

Several other photographers in my area (who produce likewise images to mine) charge the same price (per their websites) for 30 minute sessions with 10 images delivered.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> runnah said:
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You're not really charging for depreciation.  My "gear charge" calculation is based on the expected life of my gear, and how much it will cost to replace it.  Let's say body x and lens y represent an initial cost of $7500 and I can expect to get five years out of the body and ten from the lens, at which time the body's replacement cost will have increased 15% and the lens's 20%; I want to make sure that I have money in my account so that when I need the new body or lens, it's NOT coming out of my food budget.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

reavesce said:


> tirediron said:
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If I got five images out of a 1 hour session I would be VERY pleased with myself!


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> If I got five images out of a 1 hour session I would be VERY pleased with myself!



Fair enough.


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

I definitely appreciate the feedback regarding the business aspect of pricing. It has been very helpful.


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

kathythorson said:


> Steve5D said:
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Oh, I've spent more than my fair share on equipment and software. I guess my question is how do you determine how much to charge for an individual's contribution (for lack of a better word) towards those things?


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> reavesce said:
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Why is that so surprising?


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


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If I only got five images out of a one hour session, I'd go back to bartending...


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## runnah (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Oh, I've spent more than my fair share on equipment and software. I guess my question is how do you determine how much to charge for an individual's contribution (for lack of a better word) towards those things?



Think of it as if you are renting the gear from yourself to use for the job. Charge that back to the client.


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## lennon33x (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> If I only got five images out of a one hour session, I'd go back to bartending...



I can't say I disagree about this.   

But this introduces the interesting part about photography. While I may or may not agree with the comments about my photography above, that's the beauty of art being subjective. I think it's fair, in my own personal opinion to provide a client was paying for an hour of photography to be provided 15 to 20 images. This is my own personal opinion. I'm in no way trying to undermine or undercut other photographers by offering cheaper prices, and I may not have the rapport and resume built up to validate packages at thousands of dollars. I have seen other photographers, in my area, who are recommended by very reputable magazines, and their work is, in my opinion, less than desirable.  However, when you're building your own portfolio, the clients who like your material will ask you to take pictures of them and their family, or for their business. The standard for "professional quality" is somewhat skewed. I have seen several users, and even my friends, who provide photography but are less than ideal for my purposes and my subjection, who also charge a significant amount more than I do.  

 In the end, what you deliver should be accepted by your clientele, and they should be happy with what they paid for. Just because another photographer tells you that they would've done it differently, edited it differently, provided different prices, in the end, your client paid you for what you see through the lens.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Oh, I've spent more than my fair share on equipment and software. I guess my question is how do you determine how much to charge for an individual's contribution (for lack of a better word) towards those things?


Just include it in your CODB calculation.  You can assume that in any given year, you will have to replace 'X' lenses, and 'Y' bodies.  Add in the cost of a couple of flash-tubes, etc, and that gives you an estimated gear cost for the year.  Divide by the expected number of sessions and that's how much gets added into the pricing structure for gear.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> tirediron said:
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Perhaps I'm slow, but I would find it very challenging, especially with family/newborn shooting to get a new pose set up and nailed every three minutes.



Steve5D said:


> tirediron said:
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Corrected.



reavesce said:


> ...a client was paying for an hour of photography to be provided 15 to 20 images.


Perhaps this is why I don't do a lot of work with children.  How do you manage to get a different pose set up, lit, and nailed every three minutes?  I can do that for headshots, easy, but family & children?  You're a better man that I, Gunga Din!


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

reavesce said:


> In the end, what you deliver should be accepted by your clientele, and they should be happy with what they paid for. Just because another photographer tells you that they would've done it differently, edited it differently, provided different prices, in the end, your client paid you for what you see through the lens.



If you do nothing else, keep this attitude.

You have to please one person, and _only _one person: Your client. Period. Nothing else anyone says matters at the end of the day, simply because they're not the ones who are signing a check for you. If you can continue to do that (and it's easier than some would have you believe), you'll do fine...


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Just include it in your CODB calculation.  You can assume that in any given year, you will have to replace 'X' lenses, and 'Y' bodies.  Add in the cost of a couple of flash-tubes, etc, and that gives you an estimated gear cost for the year.  Divide by the expected number of sessions and that's how much gets added into the pricing structure for gear.



But, see, that's the thing. I don't replace my gear every year. I bought my 70-200 f/2.8L back in 2007. I'll be using it on the job this weekend. I've used it on jobs for the last six-plus years, and I have no reason to believe I won't use it for the next 6-1/2 years. The last body I purchased was almost three years ago. If a client asks me why I charge what I do, and I tell him it's because I'll need to have to replace a lens every year, that would be a lie. I don't. I honestly don't know of anyone who replaces lenses, or bodies for that matter, every year....


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## Steve5D (Jan 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Corrected.



I would still go back to bartending.

One releasable shot every twelve minutes?


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## runnah (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


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I know nothing about bartending but I am pretty sure I could pour more than one shot in under 12 minutes.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> tirediron said:
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> > Just include it in your CODB calculation.  You can assume that in any given year, you will have to replace 'X' lenses, and 'Y' bodies.  Add in the cost of a couple of flash-tubes, etc, and that gives you an estimated gear cost for the year.  Divide by the expected number of sessions and that's how much gets added into the pricing structure for gear.
> ...


You missed the part in my earlier post about estimating the life of each piece of gear.  For instance if you estimate the life of your 70-200 at ten years, and based on current trends figure it will cost $2700 in 2024, then you add in about eighty cents/day for that lens.  Same applies to all your gear and especially software.


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## tirediron (Jan 7, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> tirediron said:
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Like I said, maybe I'm slower than the average bear....  how long would it take you to set up, light and shoot two different poses of a family of four?  For a one hour family session, I would try and get about 5-6 poses.  That will translate into probably 35-40 images shot.  From that, about half will get binned immediately due to blinking, expressions, etc.  I will then reduce it so that the client has a maximum of three images (usually just two though) of any given pose to choose from, which normally results in about five images as the final, delivered product.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 7, 2014)

Do mechanics factor the price of their tools in the per hour repair costs?  I just look at it as a need to have the gear to do the job I am charging for. If I have to spend $8000 on a new camera body this year it doesn't mean that I will bump my fees up to pay for it, same as when all my other camera bodies were done, I didn't drop my fee.


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## runnah (Jan 7, 2014)

imagemaker46 said:


> Do mechanics factor the price of their tools in the per hour repair costs?  I just look at it as a need to have the gear to do the job I am charging for. If I have to spend $8000 on a new camera body this year it doesn't mean that I will bump my fees up to pay for it, same as when all my other camera bodies were done, I didn't drop my fee.


  They factor in the cost of tools, equipment maintenance and upgrades into the hourly rate. That's why shops charge $75 an hour but mechanics get paid $20.


At the end of the day you still get money. I just like to have my budgets planned out so I can see what really is profit and what isn't. It also helps figure out your CDB so you can understand what jobs are worth taking.


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## imagemaker46 (Jan 8, 2014)

All jobs are worth taking, there is always benefit from them, even if it's just building a client base and spin off work. I have learned to be less picky about what I shoot these days, even if it means putting $25 into my pocket.  All my gear as of right now has been paid for many times over, when I do buy new gear, it means that the money I made during shoots goes to pay for that. I write the gear off at year end.

I know why shops charge what they do, but it has a lot to do with the benefit packages they have to pay out to the mechanics. Most of the mechanics I know own their own tools, the shop has nothing to do with any of that. Unless things have changed things, mechanics in Canada can't even write the tools off.


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## Steve5D (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^^
THAT.

I worked in the music industry for 16 years. During that time, I had a salary which afforded me the luxury of turning down jobs that, monetarily, I felt were beneath me. I was one of those "I won't leave the house for less than "X" amount" guys.

Well, I'm a lot less picky these days. I shoot jobs for $1,000.00 now that, in another life, I would've been hard-pressed to shoot for $2,000.00. The whole "networking" thing is a much bigger consideration now than it used to be, too...


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