# Should I get a different flash?



## davholla (Jul 3, 2018)

I have been thinking about getting the "YONGNUO YN24EX E TTL Macro Flash " to use with my Canon MPE65mm (and possibly another one for my 60mm).
Here are some photos that I took with my current set up.
Reasons against
1) Money
2) Weight I already have problems with MPE65, ideally I would go to the gym and get stronger but I have shoulder problems which make that tricky (almost impossible if not impossible)
3) Taking up more space
4) The hassle of creating a new diffuser - for me not that easy




Shield Bug IMG_0975 by davholla2002, on Flickr




Mosquito IMG_1092 by davholla2002, on Flickr




Woodlouse IMG_1011 by davholla2002, on Flickr




Hoverfly IMG_1095 by davholla2002, on Flickr


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## Jeff15 (Jul 3, 2018)

Nice shots......................


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## Fujidave (Jul 3, 2018)

Good set of shots.  Check out the Godox range for flash.


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2018)

Canon's own Twinflash (recently updated to a new version with improved performance and wireless control for the main unit - the flash head still have the cables) is, of course, probably the best option. But its got a huge price on it.

I've not used this flash, but Yongo do have a decent reputation for producing good quality affordable flash units. Sure they are not top of the line, but they are no slouches and I think it would be well worth it for the MPE65mm. The modelling light alone makes this lens a LOT easier to use for general shooting and makes all the difference at the very high magnifications. 

I'd say go for it, the MPE is a big challenge in itself so anything that makes it easier is going to be a huge help. It's probably the hardest lens in the Canon line-up to use and the shaking aspet is something everyone has to deal with - esp once you start getting into higher magnifications. Do a search and look up the left-hand-brace technique  - basically learning to rest your left hand on the surface the subject is upon and then balancing the lens of the lens on your hand; that way the surface stabilizes you if its firm; or if its not then any shake you make is transfered in equal measure to the subject. A cold insect on a stem can have the stem held; thus syncing your motions to the stem and thus the subject.


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## davholla (Jul 3, 2018)

Jeff15 said:


> Nice shots......................





Fujidave said:


> Good set of shots.  Check out the Godox range for flash.


Thank you both, so can you see any flaws with the current lighting


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

What diffuser setup are you using right now? The twinflashes are tricky to mount custom diffusers to due to size, that said I strongly suggest checking out this guy over here Yongnuo YN24EX Diffusers

He's making 3D printed custom diffusers for the twinflash setups and has one there for the Yongo (which already speaks well of how good the yongo kit must be for him to make one up). I bought one of his earlier kits for the canon twinflash and it works well! His newer designs are improved and offer more options. I got mine off ebay from him, though reading the thread looks like you might have to shoot him a pm there to get a hold of them. 

It certainly offers a good way to get hassle free diffusers.


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## davholla (Jul 4, 2018)

Overread said:


> What diffuser setup are you using right now? The twinflashes are tricky to mount custom diffusers to due to size, that said I strongly suggest checking out this guy over here Yongnuo YN24EX Diffusers
> 
> He's making 3D printed custom diffusers for the twinflash setups and has one there for the Yongo (which already speaks well of how good the yongo kit must be for him to make one up). I bought one of his earlier kits for the canon twinflash and it works well! His newer designs are improved and offer more options. I got mine off ebay from him, though reading the thread looks like you might have to shoot him a pm there to get a hold of them.
> 
> It certainly offers a good way to get hassle free diffusers.


Thanks for that, I just wonder if it is really worth it.
For example I know that a lot of people hate ring flash.  
But this person on flickr uses them
gear
and her photos are great

Marie


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

The problems with ring flashes are:

1) The size of the light and its position makes it very hard to diffuse the light at all. There just isn't much room. Remembering that diffusing light means to make the light source bigger (a lot of people mistakenly think that its simply blocking light from the flash such as by putting some paper infront of it ; that only works when the paper is larger and thus the light source relative to the subject is enlarged).

2) The flat light it gives, granted better ring flashes can adjust so that the light from the left and right is at different powers (to create some shadowing). This isn't always a downside and sometimes you want a more even spread of light over the whole subject rather than a more creative angled light. 

3) lamp/modelling lamp. Not all ring flashes have a constant light mode. This is important for the MPE because at higher magnifications the light getting into the lens is reduced significantly; so having a modelling light on the flash is a great help because it gives you light to focus with (note this isnt pulsing the flash light but a separate light within the flash head that gives a constant beam of light to aid focusing and viewing through the viewfinder)


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## davholla (Jul 4, 2018)

Overread said:


> The problems with ring flashes are:
> 
> 1) The size of the light and its position makes it very hard to diffuse the light at all. There just isn't much room. Remembering that diffusing light means to make the light source bigger (a lot of people mistakenly think that its simply blocking light from the flash such as by putting some paper infront of it ; that only works when the paper is larger and thus the light source relative to the subject is enlarged).
> 
> ...


True (although I have a diffuser on mine).
However saying that people do get decent photos with them.
(BTW I prefer even spread of light because I normally don't have time to change the light spread, but perhaps I should try it).


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

Oh yes there are fantastic photos taken with ring flashs, twin flashes, speedlites on arms, studio setups etc... The key is finding what works for you and is mobile (when required) and gives you the control and features you need.


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## zombiesniper (Jul 4, 2018)

Sorry if you already covered this but....

What is your current set up. I only see the current lens listed not flash/diffuser.

What is the goal? i.e. What is it that you want to do that your current set up isn't capable of?

Could this be solved by using a different technique and not just Buying new gear?

Does this new purchase solve the problem or is it a hope to solve the problem?


The reason why I'm posing these questions is more than 50% of the time what people think a gear purchase will fix can often be solved with technique. I'm not experienced with macro but there are many here that are. If you can answer the above questions I would bet you will come away with the right solution.


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## davholla (Jul 4, 2018)

zombiesniper said:


> Sorry if you already covered this but....
> 
> What is your current set up. I only see the current lens listed not flash/diffuser.
> 
> ...



I have a Canon 65 mm with a ring flash (yongnuo yn -14 ex) it has a home made diffuser which I will post later  (I can't remember where I got the idea from now).
I wonder if my current set up is inferior to a dual flash as people say that ring flashes are not as good for diffusion but I am not sure that my photos do really suffer.*  So I am not sure if there is a problem but worry if there could be, if that make sense.

*I am not 100% sure that ring flashes are inferior, I know people who take wonderful photos with them.


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

davholla said:


> Mosquito IMG_1092 by davholla2002, on Flickr



This photo shows the main weakness best. If you look at the wings you can see a huge amount of white highlight overexposure; this carries over onto the back of the insect as well (the carapace). Yet the shadowed areas are very dark and show a very sharp shadow edge. This would be standard for a rather harsh type of lighting. 

A larger flash light source (ergo diffused flash) can help soften the shadow edges and reduce this effect without simply reducing the power of the flash. 


In macro there's also one theory that goes a step further which is curved light sources. The insect is 3D and yet the light is coming from a flat source of light. In theory this means areas of the main body are closer to the light and thus get more light, whilst those a bit further away get less. Even though the distances are small their relative difference to each other is noticeable. Thus having a diffuser that curves the light (like a cup) means that light from the light source is coming at angles which reduces the distance from the subject at different points to the light. 
Having the option to fit diffuser holders to a flash and thus attach a custom cupped light modifier (might have to make this yourself) is a boon that the twinflashes give you. 


Twin flashes essentially give you more options, more potential. You can put the two flash heads to the side to simulate a ringflash effect; or you can angle them differently. That said I would be interested to see your diffuser for the ringflash to see what you are working with - might be a modification to that or a change in working method might give you an improvement in light performance.


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## davholla (Jul 4, 2018)

Overread said:


> davholla said:
> 
> 
> > Mosquito IMG_1092 by davholla2002, on Flickr
> ...



I thought that as well but I didn't want to put thoughts into anyone's heads,  do you think that this is an impossible problem to solve for a ring flash?  I could stick bits of cups to it so that it diffuses that way.


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

I wont say impossible, but it might be harder.

Thing is with the twinflashes you can move them around. Kaiser makes some bounce-shoes which have an articulated part to them. I use them on mine and it means that the heads are higher up on the bracket; this gives me more room between the heads and the subject which means I can fit a diffuser. 
With a ringflash, esp when you're working with the MPE, you find that because its on the front of the camera, its position is fixed. So any diffuser has to take that into account, which is very limiting with the MPE once you get into the very high magnifications and thus the lens has to be very close to the subject. 


Which reminds me of another aspect; with the twinflash you can move hte flashes up to the top edge so that the bottom edge is free; this means that there's less to bump into the surface the subject is on. 


I'm actually curious now as to what the light quality is like as the magnification varies. It would be agood thing to test with a simple small subject and try shots at different magnifications. I don't want to say it "does" but I wonder if you get good light coverage from the ringflash at say 3:1 and greater magnifications.


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## davholla (Jul 4, 2018)

Overread said:


> I wont say impossible, but it might be harder.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually curious now as to what the light quality is like as the magnification varies. It would be agood thing to test with a simple small subject and try shots at different magnifications. I don't want to say it "does" but I wonder if you get good light coverage from the ringflash at say 3:1 and greater magnifications.


I was hoping you would have an idea on how to do it 
I do quite like the ringflash for ease of use which is one reason (apart from money) why I would like to keep it.
4.8 Mag
Mite EF7A2601




Mite EF7A2596 by davholla2002, on Flickr

3.0




Mite IMG_0543 by davholla2002, on Flickr


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## Overread (Jul 4, 2018)

Sadly I've not used a ringflash to have really gone into looking for diffusing methods to use for them.


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