# Cake Smash - Indoors - Assistance with Lighting



## kirbym2 (Aug 8, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

Looking for some advice here with lighting.  I'm shooting a cake smash for a friend next week.  Their preference is to have the shoot done indoors with a white background.  I've done some research (as I've tried a shoot like this before with my daughter - not exactly a huge success).  I don't have enough equipment to light the background.  Any suggestions here?

I'm shooting with a D7000, and my thought will be to use my 50mm 1.4.  I have an SB-600, and was thinking to have that off camera triggered via CLS.  My bigger concern is getting the backdrop bright.  Should I shoot opposite a bright window?

This is by no means a paid professional shoot - more or less something fun as a gift for the parents.  That said, I'm hoping to pull this off with a little more success than my last go at it.

Thanks for the help!


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 8, 2013)

Sounds like you need some more equipment!


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## tirediron (Aug 8, 2013)

If you have a nice, bright southern-exposure window, that would be worth trying; a couple of large pieces of foam-core/Coroplast/Posterboard will make good reflectors.  Remember to get as much separation between the subject and the background as possible.  What may work (and will definitely test the limits of CLS will be to use your pop-up flash as a key light, but use a white recipe-card underneath it to boune it off of the ceiling (assuming a bright/white and normal residentail ceiling height) and the place your SB600 so that it will catch the reflected flash and then trigger to light your background.  This might take a little creativity to get positioning right, but it should give you reasonably decent results.  Experiment with your flash compensation to fund out where you need to dial it it to get the best high-key look.  It won't be perfect, but hopefully it makes Mom happy!


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## tirediron (Aug 8, 2013)

DGMPhotography said:


> Sounds like you need some more equipment!



D'uhhh... doesn't everyone?


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## kirbym2 (Aug 8, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Remember to get as much separation between the subject and the background as possible.



I'm hoping that I'll have the room to do it, but I was going to aim for about 5 feet between subject and background... what do you think?

I like the idea of triggering the SB-600 to light the background - just worried that the pop-up will not be very flattering to the subject.  Something to try ahead of time for sure.

The room I'm looking at has a Western exposure, but will be doing in the late afternoon, so will probably have decent light.  Maybe rely on that (and a reflector), and use the flash to light the background then?  

Appreciate the tips!


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## tirediron (Aug 8, 2013)

5' isn't optimal, but it's a lot more than the 1-2' many people use.  As for your pop-up, that's why I suggested making the bounce-card out of a white recipe card.  Bend/tape/angle it under your pop-up flash so that it reflects the light on to the ceiling, which will provide a nice, diffuse light.  You will get some under-nose/chin shadowing with the light coming straight down, but if you have a reflector handy, you may be able to grab some window light and throw it on the face.  You don't want direct pop-up flash hitting the subject, and remember to get down low; you should really be laying on your stomach when you shoot these.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 8, 2013)

tirediron said:


> DGMPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you need some more equipment!
> ...



Haha, yep!


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## Derrel (Aug 8, 2013)

Relying on ambient window light to make the background light is going to require just the right exposure; the right mix of ISO, f/stop, and shutter speed, and late in the day, you might not be able to get the needed light.

Daylight is weak, compared against speedlight flash at 5,6,7,to 15 feet. Keep that firmly in mind. Making the background light BRIGHTER requires having LESS light on the subject than is on the background. It's not the absolute value in foot-candles, but the relative value, the differential between background and foreground, that determines the brightness of the background. I think relying on daylight will mean you'll need to use high ISO value, like 500 or 640, at moderate f/stop like f/3.5, and slowish speed, like 1/40 second. And at that kind of base exposure, maybe only one-eighth flash power.

Make sure the flash on the subject is low-powered. Then, you at least have a chance at getting the background bright.

Unless you do this right, you'll have issues, so be prepared to make some changes at the shoot. If you REALLY want a bright backdrop, then light it with flash, and use a lot less flash power on the subject.


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## kirbym2 (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions Derrel.  To clarify, you think my best bet is to light the backdrop, and use a lower power on the pop-up flash to light the subject?  I'm worried about the quality of window light, and would prefer to control as much as I can.  I haven't mentioned yet - what distance/angle should I place the flash to light the background?  I had thought maybe a 45 degree angle, a few feet away.  Flash power suggestions?


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## Derrel (Aug 8, 2013)

I would actually suggest taping or tieing the flash right to the back of the highchair, and aimed straight back at the background. The best course of action would be to have a second flash. Angling a speedlight usually means fall-off, and often creates background texture due to sidelighting.

I saw the suggestion of using the pop-up flash above; I'm not 100% on-board with that. I re-read your post again. You have the experience of the first, unsuccessful shoot to draw upon. I just wanted to point out one way to try and get the background bright, by using the high ISO level of 500 or 640, and using a LOW-powered flash on the subject, and using a moderate f/3.5 aperture and slowish shutter speed to "pick up ambient" or as is sometimes called "dragging the shutter". It's sometimes difficult to read between the lines on forum posts.

A lot of people here on TPF go ape when anybody suggests using flash on-camera. I think this situation calls for two, good flash units, one at relatively high power firing directly straight AT at the background, the other 4x lower in output on the kid, roughly, to ensure a WHITE background. I think relying on ambient light is sketchy, bnut I did give a rough guideline on what I expoect would be needed to try and use ambient. But honestly, I think using ambient light and dragging the shutter is going to be VERY tricky unless you're fully conversant in exactly how to do it...

On the opposite end, you could also use the SB-600 at 1/200 second, low ISO, and f/8, and have a DARK, clean background...


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## kirbym2 (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks again - I really appreciate the advice.  So many variables here.  Would much rather go the dark background look.  Going to see about beg/steal/borrowing another flash for the shoot.  Really want to nail that background.  Worst case, I'll assess the natural light situation, and if no other alternative, may leverage some of the tips you gave regarding the higher iso/moderate aperture combo.


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## DanielLewis76 (Aug 8, 2013)

Whats a cake smash? Is it literally someone smashing a cake? Is this like a know thing to do over your side of the pond?


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## cynicaster (Aug 9, 2013)

I could be wrong but my prediction is that you'll drive yourself crazy trying to get that background right with window light, and probably at the expense of your overall results.  

If I had what you have, I'd put the flash on the camera, bounce it off the ceiling, not stress too much about the background (aside from keeping it clean), and concentrate on capturing good moments. 

If you can get a second speedlight, your possibilities for the background expand, of course.  Play with gels, snoots, zoom, etc. to achieve some cool effects.


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## tirediron (Aug 9, 2013)

DanielLewis76 said:


> Whats a cake smash? Is it literally someone smashing a cake? Is this like a know thing to do over your side of the pond?


Yes!  It's a practice that should be outlawed!  An infant is given carte blanche to abuse and destroy innoncent confectionary for the amusement of his/her parents and other onlookers.


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## gsgary (Aug 9, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Yes!  It's a practice that should be outlawed!  An infant is given carte blanche to abuse and destroy innoncent confectionary for the amusement of his/her parents and other onlookers.



What do you do after jet wash them ?


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## kirbym2 (Aug 15, 2013)

Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to do a follow up.  Photoshoot was, well... challenging.  The baby was great, and mom was great too.  That said I found it very difficult to light the background with one light.  Fortunately for me, wifey came along for the adventure with my daughter to keep the older sibling occupied.  She saw first hand the limitations of having one flash.  Thinks it may be a good idea to get a decent lighting kit.  

Would love any suggestions for a portrait lighting setup.  Thinking a two light AB800 kit.  Any recommendations/must haves?  Very new to portrait (studio) lighting.  

Back to the shoot.  Basically positioned the baby near a wide sliding glass door.  East exposure in the afternoon... so not very bright.  Used the flash off camera as suggested to light the background triggered with CLS.  Found it difficult to trigger without angling the flash.  Result - baby decently exposed by the window light, background lit in some areas.  My PS skills are lacking, but I'm left with trying to even out the background in post.  The lack of additional lighting has made separation of subject from background pretty difficult.  Feel like I overpowered the flash resulting in some light wrapping around the baby.  

Ah well... definitely a learning experience.  

Would love any feedback for "next times" and suggestions for a decent (read reasonably priced) 2 light kit.

Thanks all!

Mike


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## Derrel (Aug 15, 2013)

I think the AB800's are over-powered for most portraiture needs with modern digital cameras. I think having MORE LIGHTS is vastly preferable to having two lights that are, in my opinion, very deceptively named, and marketed with non-standard specifications, using lumen-seconds instead of something that's "REAL", like an actual Guide Number, stated honestly, and plainly.

The AB800 is a 320 Watt-second flash unit. The Adorama Flashpoint 320M is a 160 Watt-second flash. I would say, buy FIVE of these, and still have money left over for a couple umbrellas. Flashpoint 320M 150 Watt AC/DC Monolight Strobe FPML320M

I've been into studio electronic flash since the mid-1980's. I've seen the Buff marketing machine in action. It's still offshore made stuff that is replaced fast when it breaks down. Why not just pay what offshore made is WORTH, which is $99 per flash head, from Adorama? The AB400 is $224. A LOT of that is both profit, and built-in insurance for the frequent customer service issues that seem to toally dominate the AB world.

Let's look at this: Adorama Flashpoint 320M is 160 Watt-seconds. Alien Bee 400 is 160 Watt-seconds. It's a pretty simple matter of naming one's products higher than the competition, to create a perceived "superiority" in the minds of first-time customers, which is who the AB's are targeted at. And since they are "more powerful" by model number (but the SAME in reality), they are worth more than twice the price in the minds of customers.


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## Mach0 (Aug 15, 2013)

Derrel said:


> I think the AB800's are over-powered for most portraiture needs with modern digital cameras. I think having MORE LIGHTS is vastly preferable to having two lights that are, in my opinion, very deceptively named, and marketed with non-standard specifications, using lumen-seconds instead of something that's "REAL", like an actual Guide Number, stated honestly, and plainly.
> 
> The AB800 is a 320 Watt-second flash unit. The Adorama Flashpoint 320M is a 160 Watt-second flash. I would say, buy FIVE of these, and still have money left over for a couple umbrellas. Flashpoint 320M 150 Watt AC/DC Monolight Strobe FPML320M
> 
> ...



I've have and own both. Only thing I like more about the alien bees are that they are smaller , lighter, and the tightening mechanism works better. When i used to mount my 60 inch octa box, i would keep having to retighten the flashpoint because it kept slowly pointing down. On my ab800, when its tight, its tight.  I do have a flash point that took a dive and broke and no longer works. I haven't dropped my ab's but  I will say this, dollar for dollar, I find the flash points a better value for the budget conscious. Maybe my copy wasnt up to par? Who knows but I WILL STILL RECOMMEND. Heck, I'm thinking of picking up a couple more 320's and one 620.


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## kirbym2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Thanks for the insight!  I took a look at the link you provided for the Flashpoint 320M lights.  I'm kind of feeling overwhelmed at the thought of a 5 light setup, and not overly comfortable with my existing light stands.  Was thinking about the two light kit (for Flashpoint).  Don't anticipate leaving home with this, so thinking I could purchase the battery packs at a later time if needed to help the budget.  

Is there a big learning curve with these?  Do they work on a GN principle (pardon my ignorance - just starting to comprehend how to correctly expose with flash).  Is there sort of a distance/aperture ratio to work with?  My goal would be to learn correct exposure first, and then adjust output based on the effect I'm looking for (high-key, low-key, etc.)

Thanks for the help!


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## jemstone (Aug 23, 2013)

DanielLewis76 said:


> Whats a cake smash? Is it literally someone smashing a cake? Is this like a know thing to do over your side of the pond?



cake smashes are everywhere in the UK daniel, where have you been


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## DanielLewis76 (Aug 24, 2013)

Obviously no where you have been LOL Seems an odd thing to actually arrange to do and hire a photographer!


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