# Slave Flash Question



## Dray1027 (May 30, 2013)

OK, big time Noob question,
I'm looking to buy a Speedlight or similar flash, & just wanted to know, are all these types of flashes able to be used as a slave flash. And do I need something else other then that?


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## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

Howdy.  Not sure if all of them can be used as a slave, but certainly there are units out there that can be fired as a slave unit.  Check this out:

Amazon.com: Yongnuo YN-560 II Speedlight Flash for Canon and Nikon. GN58.: Camera & Photo


If they can't be fired as a slave, you will need a wireless remote system such as Pocket Wizards, etc.  PW's are the high end brand, but you can get much cheaper versions through Amazon, B&H Photo or Adorama, to name a few.


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## Dray1027 (May 30, 2013)

Sweet, great price for a beginner as well. I'm assuming I will need a wireless remote with this as well.
Is this what I need?

http://www.amazon.com/Photive-Wirel...222&sr=1-7&keywords=wireless+remote+for+canon


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## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

Not exactly.  Let me summarize for you and maybe that will help.

You have to be able to trigger the speedlights somehow, and that can either be done using your camera (on a Nikon, it's called the Creative Lighting System or "CLS" for short).  The pop up flash can send a signal to an i-TTL capable Nikon speedlight (such as the SB-900 and others) and that signal will cause the flash to fire, even if the flash is "off camera."  If you don't have an i-TTL capable speedlight (in other words, only a speedlight that works manually), then you will need some way to trigger the speedlight.  

Typically you will need a trigger (called a transmitter) attached to the camera (attached to the hot shoe) and then a receiver on EACH flash unit you wish to fire. For example, here you have a transmitter and a receiver:  Amazon.com: Wireless 5 in 1 Trigger Set for Nikon: Electronics

You attach the transmitter to the camera and a receiver on EACH flash you wish to fire, and as long as they are on the same channel, they will all fire when you take a photograph.  

With the Yongnuo YN 560 Mark II units, the difference is that the have a BUILT IN radio slave.  So, let's say you have 3 flashes that you want to fire but only 1 receiver.  You would put the transmitter on the camera, and the receiver on 1 of the flashes.  The other 2 flashes have no receiver on them, but they have a built in radio slave, so when they see the first flash fire (by using the transmitter / receiver set up), they will automatically fire too even though they don't have a received attached to them.

Make sense?


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## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

Dray1027 said:


> Sweet, great price for a beginner as well. I'm assuming I will need a wireless remote with this as well.
> Is this what I need?
> 
> Amazon.com: Photive RC-6 Wireless Shutter Release For Canon Digital Rebel T5i, T4i, T3i, T2i, T1i, XT, Xti, 5D Mark II, 7D (Canon RC-5 & RC-6 Replacement): Electronics



What this unit does is to permit you to fire the camera remotely without having to push down the button on the camera.  It does not trigger a flash.


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## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

Here is some more information that you may find helpful...


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## tirediron (May 30, 2013)

Don't forget you can get inexpensive optical triggers and use the camera's pop-up flash as a trigger, or get a hot-shoe to PC & PC to hot shoe adaptors and connect via PC cord ('though IMO, a wired connection is not the best option).


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## Dray1027 (May 30, 2013)

Thanks for all the info, Some great stuff. I think I have found what I need.
 Thanks again!


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## Designer (May 30, 2013)

Dray1027 said:


> OK, big time Noob question,
> I'm looking to buy a Speedlight or similar flash, & just wanted to know, are all these types of flashes able to be used as a slave flash. And do I need something else other then that?



I couldn't say for sure, but I think most will do that.  If the Yongnuo will do that, and my SB-910 will do that, and I imagine the Canon flashes will do that, then probably most will do that.  Before you buy a flash, just check the settings menu for slave function.


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## jwbryson1 (May 30, 2013)

Dray1027 said:


> Thanks for all the info, Some great stuff. I think I have found what I need.
> Thanks again!



Any time.  If you need more info, just ask!  :mrgreen:


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## Qveon (May 31, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> With the Yongnuo YN 560 Mark II units, the difference is that the have a BUILT IN radio slave.  So, let's say you have 3 flashes that you want to fire but only 1 receiver.  You would put the transmitter on the camera, and the receiver on 1 of the flashes.  The other 2 flashes have no receiver on them, but they have a built in radio slave, so when they see the first flash fire (by using the transmitter / receiver set up), they will automatically fire too even though they don't have a received attached to them.
> 
> Make sense?


The yn560iii is the one with the built in wireless. The yn650ii have a built in optical slave only which IMO is ok but unreliable. I recommend yn603 for basic triggers or yn622 for TTL and HSS

and the yn603 can also remotely trigger the shutter on your camera too as an added feature


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## Gavjenks (May 31, 2013)

Awesome product that does this reliably and at <10% of the cost of many alternatives:

Amazon.com: CowboyStudio NPT-04 4 Channel Wireless Trigger for External Speelights with 1 Trigger and 2 Receivers (NPT-04+extra receiver): Camera & Photo

For $29, you can fire 2 external flashes via radio remote upon shutter press.  Flashes can be any brand at all, as long as they fit in a hot shoe and are triggered by that one silver connection in the middle (99.9% of flashes made in the last I dunno at least 20 years).  These are very reliable and I've used mine for years on a fairly regular basis.

Only real disadvantage is that they can only work on shutter speeds up to 1/250th or so (however fast your camera can shoot before it exposes with a moving slit between the two shutters). Some vastly more expensive systems ARE able to remotely synchronize HSS flash (meaning you can shoot at pretty much any shutter speed with remote flashes working as expected).  This problem doesn't ever come up for me, though, personally. If I ever need flash at 1/4000th of a second, it generally does not happen at the same time as when I need multiple external slave flashes as well...


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## jwbryson1 (May 31, 2013)

Qveon said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > With the Yongnuo YN 560 Mark II units, the difference is that the have a BUILT IN radio slave.  So, let's say you have 3 flashes that you want to fire but only 1 receiver.  You would put the transmitter on the camera, and the receiver on 1 of the flashes.  The other 2 flashes have no receiver on them, but they have a built in radio slave, so when they see the first flash fire (by using the transmitter / receiver set up), they will automatically fire too even though they don't have a received attached to them.
> ...



Optical slave, radio slave, whatever.  The point is that you don't need a receiver on each flash to get them to fire as long as you put them in slave mode.  The OP understands my point.

As far as reliability goes, I've never had a problem with mine firing in slave mode, ever.


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## Dray1027 (May 31, 2013)

This is the set up I'm thinking about getting to start off with, what do you think?
[h=1]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XS1BRC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2VQ4D8AE1PK0F[/h]Amazon.com: Yongnuo YN-560 II Speedlight Flash for Canon and Nikon. GN58.: Camera & Photo


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## jwbryson1 (May 31, 2013)

Dray1027 said:


> This is the set up I'm thinking about getting to start off with, what do you think?
> *Amazon.com: StudioHut PT-04 4 channel Wireless Radio Hot Shoe Slave Flash Trigger Receiver for Canon EOS, Nikon, Olympus & Pentax Flashes: Camera & Photo*
> 
> Amazon.com: Yongnuo YN-560 II Speedlight Flash for Canon and Nikon. GN58.: Camera & Photo




That Cowboy Studios received / transmitter system is designed for a Sony DSLR, and the YN 560 is designed for Nikon or Canon.  What kind of camera do you have?  You need to pick the model designed to go with your camera.

On the Cowboy Studios gear, there are people who swear by them and think they are great because of the price.  I have a set, and they seem to work okay, but please keep in mind that you get what you pay for.  They are cheap, and placticky feeling and they will not last nearly as long as a better brand like Phottix Strato II units, or Pocket Wizards.  They will also not have the same range and will be less reliable (misfires or no fires).  I have the Phottox Strato II units too and I prefer them. I keep the Cowboys as cheap backups.

Having said that, if your budget is severely limited, they are okay, but certainly not the best you could choose.


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## Dray1027 (May 31, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> Dray1027 said:
> 
> 
> > This is the set up I'm thinking about getting to start off with, what do you think?
> ...



Copy that, since Im on a budget I found this instead.
Amazon.com: Phottix Ares Wireless Flash Trigger Set (Transmitter and Receiver) #PH89230: Electronics


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## jwbryson1 (May 31, 2013)

Dray1027 said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Dray1027 said:
> ...




Perfect.  What camera are you using?


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## Dray1027 (May 31, 2013)

Cannon Rebel EOS T3i (600D)


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## Gavjenks (May 31, 2013)

> That Cowboy Studios received / transmitter system is designed for a Sony  DSLR, and the YN 560 is designed for Nikon or Canon.  What kind of  camera do you have?  You need to pick the model designed to go with your  camera.


The cowboystudio transmitters and receivers are not made specifically for any brand.  All of the major brands have the same physical hot shoe dimensions, and all of them send an electrical pulse to the center pin on shutter release.  These are the only things the devices require to function.  Thus, the same exact device will work for nikon, sony, canon, etc.  And you don't have to take my word for it. If you look at the amazon links posted, it specifically lists out all of those brands as compatible, too.



> On the Cowboy Studios gear, there are people who swear by them and think  they are great because of the price.  I have a set, and they seem to  work okay, but please keep in mind that you get what you pay for.  They  are cheap, and placticky feeling and they will not last nearly as long  as a better brand like Phottix Strato II units, or Pocket Wizards.



1) Have yours broken?  I use mine about every other day and have for 2-3 years now, and they aren't even at all loose, much less broken in any way. Yes, they are plastic. So are pocket wizards. Modern plastics can be made extremely durable (when was the last time you broke a lego block?), and these do seem to be an example of a product like that.

2) They don't need to last as long as a pocket wizard in order to be a better buy.  For the price of one pocket wizard transmitter, you can buy *ten *cowboystudio receivers AND *five *transmitters. So in order to be more cost effective, they only actually need to last 1/15th as long as a pocket wizard.



> They  will also not have the same range and will be less reliable (misfires  or no fires).


Have you ever actually had a misfire with yours?  I have not, in years of usage.   I'm not saying that it's built like a tank or had crack teams of Swiss engineers design it.  But you have to admit, it's kinda hard to screw up product design-wise. It's just a button that connects a circuit. 

I mean maybe I just got lucky with quality control, but I doubt it, since I have like 4 of them.  I think it's just that it's a blindingly simple task, and a cheap unit is all that is needed to do it.






Now don't get me wrong, pocket wizards are nice due to having more options and features, like being able to change settings for some equipment remotely, blah blah.  That's worth paying for, certainly.  But spreading doubt about a product merely due to the fact that it is cheap (unless you have actual concrete bad experience) is not cool!  Flash communication is very simple stuff.  It's just sending a basic electrical signal from A to B.  There's no reason why it SHOULD cost anything significant (without special features).  I'm surprised it even costs the $30 that it does.  Should be able to do it for like $7.


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## Gavjenks (May 31, 2013)

Also, bonus points for the cowboystudio equipment:  If you are the sort of person who enjoys electronics and tinkering with things in general, these happen to be some of the cheapest, DIY-friendly, basic remote control devices you can find online.

So if you buy a couple of backups for your camera system, they will also serve as components for hobby electronics experiments, because if you simply solder a wire to the center pin and the metal side wall, you have an instant 4 channel wireless remote for any project you want.

I actually used one of these once to trigger a remote control water balloon trap (attach cowboystudio receiver to a temporary electrical relay, which channels 9 volt battery power to a little piece of the wire you find in toaster ovens, which then gets red hot, and when taped against the side of a water balloon, will burst it within 1 second) =P


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Is GavJenks a Cowboy Studios sales rep?


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## Dray1027 (Jun 1, 2013)

Lol.... You would think.


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## Gavjenks (Jun 2, 2013)

It's not that cowboystudios transceivers are the best products in the world or anything.  They're not.  They're just basic little plastic radio boxes with extremely simplistic technology that a 6th grader could probably wire up in science class. There's nothing special about them at all.

The issue is the extent to which every other company is horribly ripping people off, and it annoys me.  The other 12 wireless remote flash companies are selling you a slightly different piece of plastic, of approximately the same quality, with nothing really different except the inclusion of an additional $3 electronic circuit that lets you set power levels.  And maybe a $2 LCD screen to tell you what power you set, or whatever.  Their costs are maaaaybe twice as much as cowboystudios in the factory, but they charge you like... 3,000% more... It's fairly despicable in my opinion.

So it's not that I'm aggressively promoting this product because of how great it is.  It's more like I'm aggressively promoting AGAINST the people who are being shamelessly and outrageously exploitative by selling $10 devices, which are less complex than an AM/FM radio, at a cost of $200-$300.


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## Gavjenks (Jun 2, 2013)

Note: Canon and Nikon are just as bad, if not worse, sometimes.    Their actual lenses are not so bad.  Only usually 50%-100% more than 3rd party, and are legitimately 30% higher quality or more.  But their *accessories*... God.  I think I saw a lens hood for sale by Canon once for something like $300.  Or a remote (plug in) trigger that costs $200 Canon and an exact copy for $5 third party, etc. etc.  Horrible.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 2, 2013)

Wow.  Such an angry response and position.  If you don't like pocket wizards, that's cool, don't buy them, but don't tell me their quality is much the same as Cowboy Studios.

I don't own them but I believe most people who own them will tell you they are worth their cost.


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## Gavjenks (Jun 2, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> Wow.  Such an angry response and position.  If you don't like pocket wizards, that's cool, don't buy them, but don't tell me their quality is much the same as Cowboy Studios.
> 
> I don't own them but I believe most people who own them will tell you they are worth their cost.


I'm not saying that it isn't worth it for people to buy pocket wizards.  if you NEED those features, and its the only one on the market that offers them, then you can pay $200 and be perfectly happy with your purchase.

That doesn't mean you aren't being ripped off, though. * There's just no way that those things cost more than like $10 to manufacture* (I would actually guess closer to $5), and they are sold for $300, which is outrageous.  Check out this product:
Amazon.com: BaoFeng UV-5R 136-174/400-480 MHz Dual-Band Ham Radio (Black): Electronics

This is a handheld HAM radio transceiver. Compared to the pocketwizard, it sends a signal over TEN times further, has four times as many channels, has twice as many buttons (costs more to make things with more buttons), has a bunch of toher bonus devices like a flashlight beacon and AM/FM radio which cost money to make, has a better antenna, has a much much better speaker, has just as complicated of a computer chip (programmable via computer, etc.), and is built more ruggedly (reviews mention dropping it and banging it around no problem, whereas the pocketwizard has a plastic hotshoe mount that would snap right off if twisted very much. Also ham radio has reinforced ridges around buttons and reinforced corners, etc.).  It's BONUS features are almost as technologically complex of radio equipment as the entire pocketwizard.

How much do you pay for this radio device which clearly would cost 2-3x or more to manufacture than a pocketwizard and also outperforms it in almost every way? * $36.*
How much does the pocketwizard multimax cost that I was comparing it to?  *$295*

Conclusion: pocketwizard has a profit margin probably at LEAST 20 times larger than this ham radio device's manufacturer.



Again, if you need the features, then you may still be happy to pay, and that's fine.  But it doesn't change the fact that it is still horribly, gougingly high prices.  Radio technology and simple programmable chips with lcd screens simply does NOT cost anywhere near that much.  They're just charging this because they have a monopoly at the moment for those features, pure and simple.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 3, 2013)

Gavjenks said:


> That doesn't mean you aren't being ripped off, though.



It's called a free market society.  Companies are allowed to make a profit in a capitalistic economy.  If they are over pricing their goods, the market will adjust their price accordingly.  But as long as people are willing to fork over their hard earned dough, it's hard to argue they are being ripped off if they believe in the perceived value of the object.




Gavjenks said:


> * There's just no way that those things cost more than like $10 to manufacture* (I would actually guess closer to $5), and they are sold for $300, which is outrageous.



Really?  And you base this on what?  Do you have inside knowledge of their CODB?  Please...


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## tirediron (Jun 3, 2013)

Gavjenks said:


> ...All of the major brands have the same physical hot shoe dimensions, and all of them send an electrical pulse to the center pin on shutter release...


Ummm... you may want to double-check that.


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## tirediron (Jun 3, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> Gavjenks said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't mean you aren't being ripped off, though.
> ...


Exactly!  If you're not happy, there is another monetary system in place, used in a number of large countries, as well as many smaller, less developed ones, 'though I understand it's not been fairing so well lately.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 3, 2013)

Gavjenks -- I'm not trying to pile on.  I just don't see the need to be irked by the cost of things.  Hell, I'd love to buy a Maserati but I don't have that kind of coin.  I don't get pissed off at Maserati though.


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## Gavjenks (Jun 3, 2013)

> Ummm... you may want to double-check that.


Okay, sorry.  "Every major modern hot shoe except Sony."  Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Sigma, and Olympus are all interchangeable for 3rd party accessories like radio connectors, or modern flashes doing basic manual firing (I never claimed TTL compatibility, etc.)



> Really?  And you base this on what?  Do you have inside knowledge of their CODB?  Please...


I know this because I have bought dozens of equally complex products for <$50, and assuming a basic 50% manufacturer markup and a 50% retail markup, that's a little over $10 in cost of production. Sure, maybe pocketwizard's general business costs are higher.  Maybe they only employ beautiful, silver-haired virgins and hand-craft every pocketwizard device in UNESCO world heritage architectural sites on daisy-dappled picturesque Swiss mountain slopes.

But why would they?  If it is POSSIBLE to make something like this for $10 (and we have evidence that it is), then pocketwizard would be silly not to do exactly that. Any higher costs than that would just be wasting profits, no matter what price they sell the final product at at retail. So it is safe to assume that if pocketwizard is an intelligently run, efficient business, they would be making these things for ~$10, because they CAN.  Then, they simply charge whatever price gives them the maximum overall profits.

As I suggested in my earlier post, the reason why this is so much higher than the ham radio is very simple: pocketwizard has a monopoly on flash sync devices that have that many features at this point in time, whereas there is a lot of competition for ham radios (no monopoly). That is probably the entire story.





Monopolies are generally bad. * DEFINITELY bad for the consumer (us, which means you shouldn't be happy about it)*.  And most of the time bad for the overall health of a free market, too (due to lots of externalities, which is why there are laws enforced against larger scale monopolies).
It may still be worth it for you to pay if that's the product you need and there are no other options, but you don't have to be HAPPY about it.



> Exactly!  If you're not happy, there is another monetary system in  place, used in a number of large countries, as well as many smaller,  less developed ones, 'though I understand it's not been fairing so well  lately.


... No.  That's not how capitalism works.  Capitalism is not an explanation for why you shouldn't be unhappy about prices.  It is exactly the opposite, in fact. The function of a free market DEPENDS on people being unhappy with high prices.  That's one half of the forces that keep prices in equilibrium. If we just shrugged and paid any price given to us, then the whole system would fall apart, because we would spend our entire savings on $15,000 loaves of bread, and then the economy and government would collapse.


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## jwbryson1 (Jun 3, 2013)

Gavjenks said:


> and assuming...



Exactly.




Gavjenks said:


> I have bought dozens of equally complex products for <$50





Gavjenks said:


> pocketwizard has a monopoly on flash sync  devices that have that many features at this point in time,




Namely?  Also, how are these 2 comments consistent?  You mention "dozens of equally complex products" but then say PW has a "monopoly on products with that many features..."




Gavjenks said:


> Maybe they only employ beautiful, silver-haired virgins and hand-craft  every pocketwizard device in UNESCO world heritage architectural sites  on daisy-dappled picturesque Swiss mountain slopes.



And I think this says it all.  Good luck with your photography pursuits.


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## Dray1027 (Jun 3, 2013)

Isn't free will a great thing, & The fact we live in such a great country that we can say what we want, or spend our money on what we want, when we want, without someone saying NO, you can't do that. Also its great that we have free enterprise to the fact of freedom to sell an item that we can perceive as a great deal no matter what someone else has purchased the same or similar product at a more costly or cheaper price. This is where advertising & marketing has come to be such a huge money maker in this world, in order to be competitive these companies have spent millions of dollars on advertising to persuade you & I to purchase their products, but still its up to you & I to make educated decisions on our purchases for whatever the reason is, its still our DECISION!


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## Gavjenks (Jun 3, 2013)

> Namely?  Also, how are these 2 comments consistent?  You mention "dozens  of equally complex products" but then say PW has a "monopoly on  products with that many features..."


A car is about equally complex to manufacture as a tractor, but they are not interchangeable in usage.
A ham voice radio is about as complex as a flash sync radio, but they are not interchangeable in usage.

These things don't economically compete with one another (and thus cannot break each others' monopolies), but they DO provide useful comparisons for manufacturing costs, because they are made in the same ways out of the same materials and have about as many features as one another, etc.

I have bought only one type of flash sync radio, but I have bought many types of radio devices in general that can transmit and receive and have equivalent numbers of features and build quality etc.



> > and assuming...
> 
> 
> Exactly.


Assumptions are unavoidable.  People who buy the pocketwizard are making just as many assumptions as people who don't.  They're just making different assumptions, that's all. It's not possible to make a purchasing decision without assuming anything. 

The goal of product reviews and discussion (which is what has been happening here) is to help people reduce the number of assumptions they make and the scope of those assumptions, in order to lead to more educated decisions being possible overall.

Educated decisions are a wonderful feature of our economy and modern lives, as Dray1027 so rightfully pointed out.


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## Dray1027 (Jun 3, 2013)

What a HOT little topic we have going on here..... Who knew?


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