# Getting Paid



## Alpha (Nov 15, 2007)

Substitute "photographer" wherever you hear "writer." This is EXACTLY what the industry is like.






*Warning: Contains Profanity*


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## Sw1tchFX (Nov 15, 2007)

amazing, because it IS true, the amateurs that just got a new DSLR  who can't shoot the broad side of a barn cutting down the people who not only have talent, but are trying to put food on the table. 

I had about 7 people this year ask me to do their senior portraits for free. I haven't done senior portraits much, but I tell you what, I sure as hell ain't doing them for free because I know i'm cleaner and faster than alot of the competition that pays $200 per session-minimum. I've seen the yearbooks.


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## craig (Nov 15, 2007)

Nice. Sensitive topic for sure. Have to say that I agree with a lot of what he is saying. If we call ourselves photographers then we have to charge a premium price. For a while I charged a low rate. I quickly realized my skills and figured out that my client was not "walking around looking for handouts". 

Love & Bass


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## craig (Nov 17, 2007)

Hmmm... I am bummed that there are not a million replies to this thread.

Love & Bass


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## Alpha (Nov 17, 2007)

I expected a lot of people to jump in and complain about how too many pros are prejudiced against amateurs, yada yada...ad nauseum. I think what Ellison is saying makes perfect sense. The problem, like he said, is that it creates a market in which people expect to get work for nothing or next to nothing. People tend to be cheap, and that's just a fact of life. Anyone who asks a pro to work for so little already knows that the amateurs are just amateur. After all, if you're already getting great work from somebody else for so cheap, why are you talkin' to me?


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## JerryPH (Nov 17, 2007)

craig said:


> Hmmm... I am bummed that there are not a million replies to this thread.


 
This happens in near every line of work. There are always people ready to take advantage of the gullible and naiive.  I believe that this is why you are not getting the posts like you may have wished.  It is sadly... very common.


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## skieur (Nov 17, 2007)

Yes, that is exactly how it is.  I remember an organization phoned my agency to ask that I give a presentation in French.  They were shocked when they were told that first there was travel/mileage and other expenses to be paid as well as an honorarium based on an amount per hour for the preparation and presentation.  They expected just to provide lunch. 

skieur


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## craig (Nov 17, 2007)

It is a tough subject to understand. Of course if you are interested in photography after a while your next thought is how can I make a couple of extra dollars doing what I love. More then ever that thought is the wrong idea. If you charge for your work then you will come under the scrutiny of pros in the biz. And you better be on point. If not you are shooting your self in the foot. I do not deny anyone who wants to get into photography. The thing is if you do not know how much to charge starting off then you are probably not ready. Not sure how many people realize that.

Love & Bass


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## Jus7 A Phas3 (Nov 17, 2007)

I think pros should get paid more just like a pro basketball player pro photographers are the best of the best they should get paid like that


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## craig (Nov 17, 2007)

I had a non profit wanting a shot for the side of a bus. They figured the publicity and an ad inside of said bus plus a small fee would be payment enough. Long story short I told them that if I shot it I could not let the image go for under 3-5 grand. That is a lot of exposure and I was not going to let it go for cheap. I lost the bid, but was proud that I stuck to my guns. Again what publicity? Not Like someone is going to look at the side of the bus and say "I should hire this dude". Interesting side note; homeboy called every photographer in Jackson and we all came in around the same price. They ended up going with an out of state photographer and the side of the bus looks like poop.

Love & Bass


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## nossie (Nov 18, 2007)

LOL qoute from the film "You can go to the store muddafukka!"  LMAO - Reminds me of myself when I start to boil.


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## ksmattfish (Nov 20, 2007)

Sw1tchFX said:


> ...the amateurs that just got a new DSLR  who can't shoot the broad side of a barn cutting down the people who not only have talent...



If an amateur with a DSLR can cut down the business of an established professional photographer then I have serious misgivings about both the photography and business skills of the established professional.  Photography is by far the easiest of the visual arts, at least since Eastman introduced film.  HCB called it the "artless art", because he said anyone with an "eye" could do it.  This was decades before digital or any auto-features.  Even before the introduction of easy to use, idiot proof film (1888) the business was full of hacks.  Competent photographic skill is well within the ability of most human beings if they care to learn it.  

There are usually advantages to hiring a professional over an amateur, but the client needs to understand and *see* those advantages.  If the demand is as simple as "I want to hire a photographer whose photos I like", then when the pro loses out to the amateur it's because the client wasn't impressed with their portfolio.  If the client hires a hack, and is disappointed in the work, then hopefully they'll have learned a greater appreciation for the professional.  If the client can't see or understand the advantage of hiring the pro over the amateur that's a failure on the pro's part.

Wisdom from the ages...  

     "Let me here call attention to one of the most universally popular mistakes that have to do with photography - that of classing supposedly excellent work as professional, and using the term amateur to convey the idea of immature productions and to excuse atrociously poor photographs. As a matter of fact nearly all the greatest work is being, and has always been done, by those who are following photography for the love of it, and not merely for financial reasons. As the name implies, an amateur is one who works for love; and viewed in this light the incorrectness of the popular classification is readily apparent." -Alfred Stieglitz (in 1899).

By the way, Max, I'd love to see your portfolio.  When are you going to post that link for us?


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## Flash Harry (Nov 20, 2007)

"If an amateur with a DSLR can cut down the business of an established professional photographer then I have serious misgivings about both the photography and business skills of the established professional."

Clients want it for nothing nowadays, nothing to do with business skills or quality, besides what does the average punter know about photographic quality, they see a shot they like and pick it, the amount of times I've been undecided about leaving a print I thought dodgy in the proofs pack only to find later that it was the biggest seller, this game never ceases to amaze me. H


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## Alpha (Nov 20, 2007)

ksmattfish said:


> By the way, Max, I'd love to see your portfolio.  When are you going to post that link for us?



What does that have to do with anything? I don't bill myself as a professional. I hardly have time these days to do even serious hobby-work. I suppose I'm not allowed to comment on this subject unless I feel some personal, professional injustice about it? You don't have to be getting undercut in order to understand the situation. All you need is eyes. 

And sure, I will let you know when I get around to putting my port online is some vaguely organized fashion.


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## wildmaven (Nov 20, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> What does that have to do with anything? I don't bill myself as a professional.


 
Heck, I've wanted to see your portfolio, too. It doesn't mean I am saying anything negative to you by asking.


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## nossie (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh Max we worship you and all your greatness. We throw ourselves at your feet and the mercy of your massive ego.

Now get your pinhead out of your ass and put your shots where your cakehole is. So far what you've put up is mediocre and how dare we mere camera owners that didn't throw bouquets in praise dare to comment.

_Give me a break pffft! :thumbdown:_

[This is the spot where you take a uber defensive massive fit (again)]


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## Alpha (Nov 20, 2007)

Heck, _I've_ wanted to see my portfolio.


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## wildmaven (Nov 20, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> Heck, _I've_ wanted to see my portfolio.


 
Hahhahahhaah! Well, get cookin'!!! :lmao:


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## Mike_E (Nov 20, 2007)

That short make you want to pay the man doesn't it?  

LOL  Hell yes!


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## AverageJoe (Nov 20, 2007)

This is a free market economy, if someone will do work for a lower price that person will get the job.  If the job isn't completed to the satisfaction of the individual who hired them, they won't work again, but that's just how it works.


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## jstuedle (Nov 21, 2007)

AverageJoe said:


> This is a free market economy, if someone will do work for a lower price that person will get the job.  If the job isn't completed to the satisfaction of the individual who hired them, they won't work again, but that's just how it works.




To say they won't work again is a little disingenuous. With a little advertising, any hack will keep a cash flow if the market is big enough. For instance, a dear friend came to me and asked what I would charge for senior portraits of her daughter. The young lady is a skinny bean pole who thinks she's the reincarnation of Pamela Anderson. A lot of work is on the horizon to make her look like she thinks she is. This friend gave me a flyer from another studio and his base rate is $25.00 for a sitting, a digital file for the yearbook and 2 8X10's. I don't work that cheap, so I find myself pissing off a friend. Now this guys work looks like it came out of one of those little portrait machines in the mall where you get 4 fuzzy prints for $2.00. But his flyer is nice, glossy color tri-fold with great examples of good quality work. He has been doing this for years. He IS making money. I don't want to compete, I WILL NOT compete with him. He is a poor example of our craft, and he does on a daily basis give his  work away. But OTOH, he probably can't really sell what he puts out for a decent price. 

All that said, Max is correct in his original post. Either you are offering stunning work with a unique style that the public is dieing for, or you are a starving amature in this day and age. About every house has a P&S digital camera in it, and most owners think they can do what you and I do for a living and do it for nothing. 

I'll give you another example. As a way to get out of the house and pay for my entertainment I shoot live bands most Friday nights. My normal fee is $150 for a couple hours shooting, plus milage if it's a good trip. I edit on the fly and burn a CD at the gigs end and give a copy to the band, and one to the venue owner. My name and copyright is on each web size image on the CD. I also print my name and number on the CD and provide a few cards. Often a band will contact me after seeing my name on a bands web site or myspace page and want photos. For most startup bands, $150 is a lot of money and balk at my price. A few weeks later I may see there page and notice some new pix, taken with a band members girlfriends P&S. Sorry, but they are crap, and they know it. Some come back and some don't. That's OK. As a business man/woman, you have to understand that you don't want every client that comes along. Problem is, more and more are the ones you don't want. The ones who want it for nothing. And the fact is in todays world someone out there will do it for nothing. In another line of work, those people are called nymphomaniacs.


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## Brotage (Nov 21, 2007)

This is coming from someone who still doesn't own a DSLR or have ever owned a digital, and am using a minolta for a photo class in high school.

So you have the amateurs with the cameras that take mediocre and undercut the pros.

Then you have "pros" charging more for better pictures.. The problem is most of these pictures look all the same compared to the other "pros"
When the consumer sees so many with the same quality from pros they think this is normal and anyone can probably do this. And I think that most of these "pros" think they are better than they actually are.

I could look at a million GREAT pictures but eventually  I would get bored and wouldn't care.



If you're going to ***** about being undercut by amateurs it's because your work doesn't show. You need some kind of WOW factor that separates you from everyone else

And sometimes you don't need some super duper pro to do some pictures. I honestly think senior pictures are a waste. A lot of people aren't really pretty and they expect themselves to be when they get their pictures back and they end up getting frustrated.

If you go out to buy something wouldn't you want the option of having something "Do the job" "Do the job well" and "Oh my god I think I just crapped my pants that was so good"?

Oh and, I don't agree with doing work for free, that's just retarded. And were they strangers? I'd expect to pay my friends for pictures.

EDIT: got a bit more to blab 
Another thing is skateboarding is a lot like photography.. or anything thats takes serious dedication to get good at.

If I showed you guys a usual part in a skateboarding movie you'd see the board flip.. flip some more.. and some grinds.. whereas a skater would see the switch/nollie/fakie/and other more difficult tricks. and theres a few guys where even the average person can agree that it's awesome (Rodney Mullen for example 



)

When the average joe looks at some pictures they don't see lighting, composition and so on, they just see whats in front of them


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## jstuedle (Nov 22, 2007)

Brotage, we basically are saying the same thing. A pro has to be good, his work needs to stand out to make money. Nobody wants to work for free. And yes, there is a portion of the buying public that can't tell a Wal-Mart studio portrait from a Ron Kramer masterpiece. For those people, let them snap a shot with there Easyshare and post it in the yearbook. I don't need or want them as clients anyway. But the fact does remain the culture is changing. Most people are satisfied with so-so prints from there P&S, and those same people don't see anything wrong with swiping a copyrighted so-so MP3 quality song of the net.  Or anymore than swiping a copyrighted JPEG compressed photo off the net. The culture has cheapened what we expect, and the professional photographer is one party that suffers in the process.


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## Alpha (Nov 22, 2007)

This isn't about the demands of clients. Nor is it about amateurs intentionally undercutting professionals. It's not even about quality. This is about the fact that when the market is saturated with amateurs undervaluing their work because they don't know or don't care otherwise, then the market value of a photograph drops. 

High end commerical work does not factor into this-- it's a different market full of people who pay well for good work, and people who work hard and get paid well.


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## jstuedle (Nov 22, 2007)

Well said Max. But even in the high end stuff, I see/hear more and more are shooting "in house" catalogs and using stock images. Even that work has become more competitive/cutthroat than it ever was. My wife has a small embroidery shop and several of her garment catalogs have been shot in house where they used to be slik pro catalogs. Now they look almost whorish. With poor focus and blown out highlights using employee models. Really poor, low rez work that can't sell a sexy outfit in a way it should be. It's just getting tighter all over. But you may be talking of "higher" end work than this. That 1/100th of 1% still seems to be a well entrenched field served by a talented, special few.


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## Alpha (Nov 22, 2007)

That's a good point. We even see threads on here all the time from people posting in the beginner's section who are shooting some stuff at work or who have been "commissioned" to shoot product work by some local business.

Why don't you shoot some of the catalog work? Alternatively, I know I'm ALWAYS looking for clothes clothes clothes for TFP shoots. Model, makeup, and hair are the easy part. But unless you're in an area that actually has real fashion artists, you don't get a whole lot to work with. I'm willing to bet that if you snooped around ModelMayhem and offered to lend out a wardrobe like that, a couple talented local people would shoot it for cheap or free at least once.


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## Iron Flatline (Nov 25, 2007)

Photography is the most dis-intermediated industry at this point. The Internet has effectively killed the stock photography industry.


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## LeSueur24 (Nov 25, 2007)

On the same topic, would you guys think it's wrong to make friends pay for photos you take (take in count that I'm only 15)? They wanted me to take their prom pictures this spring, and I'd feel sorta bad making them buy prints, but at the same time I feel like I'd be helping myself because I've had to buy everything I shoot with and I feel that if they appreciate the photos enough they wouldn't disagree with buying them from me.


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## Alpha (Nov 25, 2007)

LeSueur24 said:


> On the same topic, would you guys think it's wrong to make friends pay for photos you take (take in count that I'm only 15)? They wanted me to take their prom pictures this spring, and I'd feel sorta bad making them buy prints, but at the same time I feel like I'd be helping myself because I've had to buy everything I shoot with and I feel that if they appreciate the photos enough they wouldn't disagree with buying them from me.



Depends on how much you invest in producing the photos time and money wise. If you snap a couple shots with your rebel, spend a few minutes post-processing each shot, and then print them on an inkjet or dye-sub at home, then no, I wouldn't charge. If you take the shots to some place like a Ritz camera to be printed, I'd ask them to pay for the prints.

On the other hand, if you spend a lot of time setting up and doing the shoot, then a considerable amount of time post-processing, and then have them printed by someone who actually knows what they're doing, then yes, I would charge at least something.


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## LeSueur24 (Nov 25, 2007)

I'd definitely spend some good time post processing, not doing anything extreme, just making sure the colors look nice and if any cropping needs to be done.


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## DeepSpring (Nov 25, 2007)

I agree with what has been said. People expect a lot from you for absolutely nothing. For example I have been shooting a lot of my schools football games and the day after the game I have a million kids messaging me "Where are my pictures?!?" and stuff like that. Maybe if he paid me I would make sure to get them some pictures but they assume they are free for all. I've had to end up slapping my watermark all over them so when kids do steal them at least they see my website.

A lot of high school kids expect me to do free photo shoots and give them free prints. If it is a really close friend and I know the pictures will end up being something I can use for my portfolio then I might offer them a free shoot as long as they respect me. Prints on the other hand I always charge at least a few $ more then costs.


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## D-50 (Dec 1, 2007)

> I ran a web development company for a while, before mostly halting operations when I decided I didn't want to do it as a career. I specialized in Search Engine Optimization and Internet Marketing, but also did a lot of web design work and a bit of web application development. In any event, I know that there are a lot of small-time people here running personal sites, and a few professional photographers that drive business through the web. I'm up for free consultations of any kind, for anybody who wants some assistance with any of the following:
> 
> 
> Organic Search Engine Optimization (on and off-page)
> ...


 
MAX why dont you explain this post then.  This was originally posted by Max about a year ago.


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## PrincessB (Dec 2, 2007)

I am the otherside (and I realize over sensitive whiners won't like it but I don't care). I do photography for those who can't afford the big name photographers. I tell people I have not been doing this as long as many and I don't have as much equipment as many others do but I can shoot some good pictures and if you are on a budget like me then I want to help you. If you have money to afford a couple thousand dollar photographer then by all means I want you to go hire them, if you don't have much money but want good pictures then I'm here.
Some people can afford a couple thousand dollars for their wedding or other event photographer, but realisticly a lot of people can not. For a lot of people hiring a photographer is completly out of the question, they have to rely on aunt so and so with the shaky hands to take pictures of their special activities and I don't think it should be that way.
So yeah I charge much less than you, but realisticly I'm only taking the customers you don't want anyway. The ones with a tiny budget, the ones that want to get as much for free as possible and would therefore be harrassing the crap out of you till you are sorry you ever met them, the ones that marry on short notice and have little to nothing planned. The ones that are serious about showing off breath taking pictures to everyone they know, and can afford to do so are going to you, but by choice and by my incouragement.

But there are definatly some "pros" who send the masses fleeing for me. At a family activity they hired a pro who was inconsiderate, unobservant, and demanded at least $450.00 in sales or he wouldn't even consider coming out. He was not very good, he brought a black backdrop to a pink themed birthday party and wanted everyone to wear only light clothing to the party because he couldn't compensate for darker clothes, even made one lady go put on one of his white shirts because her top wasn't light enough. No one has bought anything from him because they never liked what they saw, instead everyone is contacting me with "did you get any pictures, we have none and the photographer was not good at all".
You want to not be undercut, don't undercut yourself.


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## Alpha (Dec 2, 2007)

D-50 said:


> MAX why dont you explain this post then.  This was originally posted by Max about a year ago.



I'm guessing that you want me to explain "don't charge very much" and "I'll help in any way I can for free" ?

As for "don't charge very much," that's due only to the fact that I don't have time to do an amount of work that I would charge a lot for. If you just need help setting up an AdWords account or you need an evaluation of how search engine-friendly your site is, then no I'm not gonna charge much because that doesn't take me very long to do. That's how I've always operated and how most others do, too.

As for "I'll help in any way I can for free," why the hell not? No, I'm not gonna go build you a SQL database or install and monitor web-metrics software, or optimize your whole site for free. But some things have always been free anyway, like preliminary evaluations of your site's competitiveness. Nobody charges for that. They need to look at it anyway to figure out how much they're gonna charge you to actually fix it.

My offer was more altruistic than you're allowing yourself to believe. I never said I would _do_ everything for free, I said I would _help_ for free. What I meant, for the most part, was that if you're for some reason working on any of that stuff yourself and you need assistance, I'm around if you need to ask me any questions.

If you think there's something wrong with that, then I suggest you leave the forum immediately because you're undercutting photography book authors every time you give someone advice here.


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## D-50 (Dec 2, 2007)

You know what that is very true I suggest we shut down this whole forum immediately because there are photography teachers and writers out there who try to make a living off of their craft.  Anyone who takes one of those classes or reads one of those books and then posts here is indeed undercutting them and that is not fair. Anyone who comes here for advice is cheating them as well.  

Big Mike could be the most guilty often giving sound advice and lessons for no charge at all!  Max you are extremely guilty as well, you often give very technical and specific advice for nothing sounds like you learned a lot from books or classes and are now passing that info along for free.

Moderators please shutdown TFP immediatly.  I think I'll go to the Canon and Nikon forums as well and suggest they follow suit.  Everyone here is guilty no exceptions.


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## jstuedle (Dec 2, 2007)

D-50 said:


> You know what that is very true I suggest we shut down this whole forum immediately because there are photography teachers and writers out there who try to make a living off of their craft.  Anyone who takes one of those classes or reads one of those books and then posts here is indeed undercutting them and that is not fair. Anyone who comes here for advice is cheating them as well.
> 
> Big Mike could be the most guilty often giving sound advice and lessons for no charge at all!  Max you are extremely guilty as well, you often give very technical and specific advice for nothing sounds like you learned a lot from books or classes and are now passing that info along for free.
> 
> Moderators please shutdown TFP immediatly.  I think I'll go to the Canon and Nikon forums as well and suggest they follow suit.  Everyone here is guilty no exceptions.




Gee, and I always thought the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" made a lot of sense. 

And, ya, I'm guilty D50. I'll help as much as I can, cause I need as much help as I can get.


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## Alpha (Dec 2, 2007)

D-50 said:


> Moderators please shutdown TFP immediatly.  I think I'll go to the Canon and Nikon forums as well and suggest they follow suit.  Everyone here is guilty no exceptions.



Don't forget DPreview.


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