# Do Clients Always Want More?



## D-B-J

So, I recently did a photoshoot for two of my friends.  Paid (not excessively, but I'm still a newb), and said they could expect 15-20+ images from an hour or so of shooting.  I delivered 19, and she _insists _that there are more good ones etc. and she wants to come look at all the images.  Now, I've had this issue almost every time I shoot.  I deliver what I think are the best (and some that aren't technically perfect but I know the client will love), and yet they ALWAYS want more.  Am I being too selective?  Or are they being greedy?  I've had lengthly debates with my parents about this topic, and am interested as to what others think. Is it irrational to shoot 275 and deliver 19?  I don't know if it's because I'm still so new to portraiture or something else, but I get about 10 GOOD images for every 100 I take.  Granted, we were laughing and goofing around a bunch, so a fair amount are silly/unposed images, but still.  Maybe I just need to up my keeper percentage?

Cheers!
Jake


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## IronMaskDuval

It's a matter of subjectivity. What you may chuck for trash, they may see as treasure, so why not let them look at it....unless your keep rate is like 1%.


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## Overread

A few thoughts:

1) Sign a contract - agree how many photos will be delivered within the contract. Your keeper rate basically is always important to increase, but so long as your keeper rate (good keepers) is equal to what you are to deliver within the time frame you are doing well. By all means work on improving it, just don't get fixated upon it beyond estimating shots per hour or so (remembering that new or different situations are going to lower your keeper rate as will imperfect conditions). 

2) Understand that most people have no idea about photography and assume that every time the photographer presses the shutter button its an amazing keeper shot that comes out. Reality is far from this, but they will still think there are many more than there really are from the shoot (ergo yes you have to get used to it). 

3) It's often good to assume a policy of "If its not in the portfolio it was a bad shot and is deleted". That tends to silence the demands for more. Of course vary this on the situation, some things like a wedding with far off long lost family turning up might well yield more sales even of very poor photos because they show a family member who is rarely seen (lives a long way off etc..). You can also just go with the flat "these are the good ones, nothing else was up to my standards". 

4) People are always grabby for more - doesn't matter what sector of the market you are in (although those with more limited funds can sometimes be more grabby because they have to make every coin they spend count).


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## D-B-J

IronMaskDuval said:


> It's a matter of subjectivity. What you may chuck for trash, they may see as treasure, so why not let them look at it....unless your keep rate is like 1%.



No, thankfully it's not that bad.


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## Overread

IronMaskDuval said:


> It's a matter of subjectivity. What you may chuck for trash, they may see as treasure, so why not let them look at it....unless your keep rate is like 1%.



A photographer has to be careful here to some extent. What you give to clients is what gets shown to their friends and family. It's basically advertising your work. If you let too many low grade photos out there in to the market you might well find it harder to attract customers because people get the impression that your work is average or lower grade (ie its not special). 

Look at many great artists and you can often find that it wasn't that they could put out vast quantities of material; but that the few they did produce were simply outstanding.


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## sscarmack

I deliver ALL the photos I take, but only edit a handful fully and I put them in two separate folders. I can spend up to an hour maybe even two on one single photo. I don't have the time and their pockets aren't deep enough to pay me to edit every photo I take fully.

All photos go through basic editing, color balance, exposure, contrast.


Why do I care if the client gets all the photos? They paid me, their just going to sit on my external hard drive anyways. Might as well have someone look at them once or twice.


/rambling


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## robbins.photo

Overread said:


> IronMaskDuval said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a matter of subjectivity. What you may chuck for trash, they may see as treasure, so why not let them look at it....unless your keep rate is like 1%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A photographer has to be careful here to some extent. What you give to clients is what gets shown to their friends and family. It's basically advertising your work. If you let too many low grade photos out there in to the market you might well find it harder to attract customers because people get the impression that your work is average or lower grade (ie its not special).
> 
> Look at many great artists and you can often find that it wasn't that they could put out vast quantities of material; but that the few they did produce were simply outstanding.
Click to expand...


Right..like Stephen King.

Umm.. ok, nevermind, bad example.. lol


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## tirediron

sscarmack said:


> I deliver ALL the photos I take, but only edit a handful fully and I put them in two separate folders. I can spend up to an hour maybe even two on one single photo. I don't have the time and their pockets aren't deep enough to pay me to edit every photo I take fully.
> 
> All photos go through basic editing, color balance, exposure, contrast.
> 
> 
> Why do I care if the client gets all the photos? They paid me, their just going to sit on my external hard drive anyways. Might as well have someone look at them once or twice.
> 
> 
> /rambling


IMO, this is a very bad business practice.  Letting images go that are not fully enhanced does two things.  (1) It dillutes your brand and enhances the expectation of greater delivery for a given dollar value; and (2) It reduces the consistancy of your portfolio.  People see you out because they like a particular aspect or aspects of your work.  If your work has a multitude of different looks to it, it's going to confuse clients.  Likewise if Suzy comes over to visit Sally, and Sally pulls out the disc with 200 images, only 10% of which are fully enhanced, neither are going to know (or remember) which is which, and Suzy, a potential new client instead of seeing 20 great images is going see (and remember 180 so-so images.

As Over said, you need an agreement/contract; even when I'm doing a TFP for a local MM model, I have an agreement which clearly spells out what she can expect.  I reinforce this at the end of the session by explaining exactly what they can expect to receive and about how long it will take.  On the rare occasion when they do ask for more, I respond with a polite, "No, I'm sorry, that's all of the images that are available.  All others have been deleted."


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## ronlane

Quote from Jay Maisel - "If you don&#8217;t know the difference between the bad photos and the best, you&#8217;re always going to be judged by the bad ones, not the good ones."


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## D-B-J

ronlane said:


> Quote from Jay Maisel - "If you don&#8217;t know the difference between the bad photos and the best, you&#8217;re always going to be judged by the bad ones, not the good ones."



That's a good quote Ron. :thumbup:


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## sscarmack

tirediron said:


> sscarmack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I deliver ALL the photos I take, but only edit a handful fully and I put them in two separate folders. I can spend up to an hour maybe even two on one single photo. I don't have the time and their pockets aren't deep enough to pay me to edit every photo I take fully.
> 
> All photos go through basic editing, color balance, exposure, contrast.
> 
> 
> Why do I care if the client gets all the photos? They paid me, their just going to sit on my external hard drive anyways. Might as well have someone look at them once or twice.
> 
> 
> /rambling
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is a very bad business practice.  Letting images go that are not fully enhanced does two things.  (1) It dillutes your brand and enhances the expectation of greater delivery for a given dollar value; and (2) It reduces the consistancy of your portfolio.  People see you out because they like a particular aspect or aspects of your work.  If your work has a multitude of different looks to it, it's going to confuse clients.  Likewise if Suzy comes over to visit Sally, and Sally pulls out the disc with 200 images, only 10% of which are fully enhanced, neither are going to know (or remember) which is which, and Suzy, a potential new client instead of seeing 20 great images is going see (and remember 180 so-so images.
> 
> As Over said, you need an agreement/contract; even when I'm doing a TFP for a local MM model, I have an agreement which clearly spells out what she can expect.  I reinforce this at the end of the session by explaining exactly what they can expect to receive and about how long it will take.  On the rare occasion when they do ask for more, I respond with a polite, "No, I'm sorry, that's all of the images that are available.  All others have been deleted."
Click to expand...


I disagree with this entirely, but I respect your point of view.

People want quantity more than quality. 

If they had to choose between 500 okay photos or 20 good ones, I bet 9/10 times they choose the 100.

The number one question I get asked is how many photos I take. People don't care if you go in and touch up every single hair and clone stuff out. As long as its exposed properly and looks good, they don't care. At least from what I've noticed in the past five years of doing this. Maybe its just my 'area'.

I simply tell people, I pick out my favorite from the sets and edit them fully, and only edit the others for presentable looks (Exposure, contrast, etc) (I don't touch up skin, remove stuff, etc) but they are still presentable.


Just my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And its working for me.


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## vintagesnaps

I think you sort of answered this yourself - yes you need to increase your keeper rate, no it doesn't make sense to take 275 photos and provide 20. Your friends aren't dummies (at least I would think that), they know you fired off a helluva lot of shots - so where are they?? They can't help but realize how much you fired off your camera - and they got 20 pictures? Probably doesn't make sense to them. 

I've done sports/events and I learned how to get it in camera most of the time, but a higher keeper rate would give you less crappy shots to sort thru and more usable shots to be able to use. 

You probably need to work toward handling shoots in a more business like way to be taken seriously as a pro photographer. If you want to take photos of your friends just for practice and to have fun with it, make it clear that's what you're doing, taking lots of photos to learn and get in some practice - help them have realistic expectations.


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## KmH

People that came to me that wanted quantity rather than quality got referred to some other photographer.

The list of those other photographers was always changing because those other photographers kept going out of business.


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## D-B-J

KmH said:


> People that came to me that wanted quantity rather than quality got referred to some other photographer.
> 
> The list of those other photographers was always changing becuase those other photographers kept going out of business.



Seems legit. I've been trying to "start" a business. Nothing official yet, just ramping up photo-shoots and editing practice and website building etc. I realize I need to up my keeper rate, but I refuse to provide shoddy photos just so they can "have a bunch." Is it irrational to take 20 photos of a single pose and only give them one? I just received a message to the effect of "given what we payed ($50) we expected more but that's okay." Kind of a slap in the face, given that I stated (yes, next time I will have a proper contract... Face palm) that I'd provide 15-20 final images. 

/endrant 




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## tirediron

KmH said:


> People that came to me that wanted quantity rather than quality got referred to some other photographer.
> 
> The list of those other photographers was always changing becuase those other photographers kept going out of business.


^^This.  Perahps a difference in our clientle as well; the vast majority of my client base is 50+ with a signifiant portion of them being >65.  They almost exclusively tell me what they want and don't care how I get there.  None of them have ever asked about digital files let alone how many they get.


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## robbins.photo

Ok, well keep in mind here I don't shoot professionally not do I have a desire too, but I have been roped into a couple of sessions that were paid despite my best efforts to get out of them.  On that first senior photo shoot I did, I would fire off a few frames and then I'd take the camera over to her, cycle through them on the LCD, find the one I liked and say - see, now that's a keeper!  I did this maybe a couple of times on the first few shots - and from there she understood that even though I was taking 5, 6, 10 frames of a shot that of those only 1 or maybe as many as 2 might be used and that they were all very close to being the same picture anyway.  

 It pretty much set that expectation for her without it being awkward.  When it came time to go through them and select the ones she wanted, she wasn't at all surprised or dissapointed that out of all the pictures we took that day there were only a little over 20 or so for her to select from.  YMMV of course, but that might be something you could try as well.


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## W.Fovall

a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50


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## KmH

Is retail photography a full time job for you?

How long have you been doing retail photography?


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## robbins.photo

W.Fovall said:


> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50



Yikes.  I must be horribly slow I guess.  Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour.  I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?


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## D-B-J

KmH said:


> Is retail photography a full time job for you?
> 
> How long have you been doing retail photography?



Definitely new to me, and NOT my main source of income. I would love to one day have it be a real source of income, but who knows if I'll ever reach that level. Mostly, it's for fun, and to make a few dollars on the side.


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## D-B-J

robbins.photo said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes.  I must be horribly slow I guess.  Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour.  I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
Click to expand...


That was what I was wondering. I don't see the sense in giving the client 12 shots of the same pose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## robbins.photo

D-B-J said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. I must be horribly slow I guess. Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour. I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was what I was wondering. I don't see the sense in giving the client 12 shots of the same pose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


I didn't either.. lol. That's why I did the "see, this is a keeper" thing with the seniors I shot. They got to see that the other 5-10 shots I took were all pretty much the same and they were getting the 1 out of that series that was the best. They got to see them on the camera LCD so if it turned out the "keeper" was actually a slightly different shot than the one I stopped on and proclaimed as a keeper they'd never notice the difference anyway.

That way later on I got to go through everything, pick out the actual keepers, put them together to present to the client then let them pick from that subset the ones they wanted to keep. Worked well for me at least.


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## D-B-J

robbins.photo said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. I must be horribly slow I guess. Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour. I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was what I was wondering. I don't see the sense in giving the client 12 shots of the same pose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't either.. lol. That's why I did the "see, this is a keeper" thing with the seniors I shot. They got to see that the other 5-10 shots I took were all pretty much the same and they were getting the 1 out of that series that was the best. They got to see them on the camera LCD so if it turned out the "keeper" was actually a slightly different shot than the one I stopped on and proclaimed as a keeper they'd never notice the difference anyway.
> 
> That way later on I got to go through everything, pick out the actual keepers, put them together to present to the client then let them pick from that subset the ones they wanted to keep. Worked well for me at least.
Click to expand...


I'll definitely have to give that a shot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## W.Fovall

robbins.photo said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes.  I must be horribly slow I guess.  Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour.  I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
Click to expand...


i mainly am doing family and couple portraits outdoors... i always have it set to hi speed multi shoot and snap 3-5 shots with every button press... people tend to blink and twitch so i always shoot many of same look.. 
you don't need to change the background much just a turn of the head is enough for a different look. i also shoot between when they don't think I'm shooting... kids are often the most photogenic while walking from one side of the park to the other...


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## runnah

Clients are like a horny teenage boy on prom night and vendors are a buxom blonde cheerleader. 

Just trying to find any way to screw you.


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## D-B-J

runnah said:


> Clients are like a horny teenage boy on prom night and vendors are a buxom blonde cheerleader.
> 
> Just trying to find any way to screw you.



You're such a cynic, runnah :mrgreen:


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## imagemaker46

I always try and give clients more than they expect or asked for.


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## KmH

I've done the math here on TPF many times showing income potential based on how many shooting days a retail photographer can count on having in a year, and the cold hard fact that 75 % of a full-time retail photographers time is spent on business tasks rather than on doing photography tasks.

What it boils down to is that to make a living wage doing retail photography on a full-time basis requires an average sale of about $1000.

In today's economy we should probably call that an average sale of $1200.


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## D-B-J

KmH said:


> I've done the math here on TPF many times showing income potential based on how many shooting days a retail photographer can count on having in a year, and the cold hard fact that 75 % of a full-time retail photographers time is spent on business tasks rather than on doing photography tasks.
> 
> What it boils down to is that to make a living wage doing retail photography on a full-time basis requires an average sale of about $1000.
> 
> In today's economy we should probably call that an average sale of $1200.



That's why I'll probably never have photography as a full time job. It's something I've taken on as a hobby, and it sometimes makes me money. But if I never made a cent off of it I'd be okay [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tirediron

robbins.photo said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes.  I must be horribly slow I guess.  Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour.  I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
Click to expand...

You and me both Ape-face!  A typical 90 minute - two hour modelling session for me will produce about 60-80 rough images which is weeded down to 20-30 for their proofing and session and a typical delivery is 6-8.


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## KmH

D-B-J said:


> *Do Clients Always Want More?*


Absolutely!

And I have a ready reply when they ask for more - "Sure, we can do that. All it takes is money."

The look on their face when they realize it's their money I'm referring to is priceless.

Quite a few successful retail photographers charge by the pose and by the sheet (prints). A sheet is usually an 8x10 size of print paper.
Two 4x5 prints = an 8x10. One 16x20 = 2 8x10's. and so on.

As an example and numbers to make the math eaxy:
1 pose on 1 sheet = $50. That could be one pose as 2 4x5 prints or 1 paoe as an 8x10
1 pose on 2 sheets = $100. that could be 2 8x10's, one 16x20, 1 8x10 and 2 4x5's, or 4 4x5's.
2 poses on 2 sheets = $200


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## D-B-J

KmH said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Do Clients Always Want More?*
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> And I have a ready reply when they ask for more - "Sure, we can do that. All it takes is money."
> 
> The look on their face when they realize it's their money I'm referring to is priceless.
Click to expand...


Hahaha.  They want SO much sometimes and want to pay SOOO little..  All these FAUXtog's picking up a dslr and posting every single shot they take, crappy or otherwise, is really ruining the business.  Kids my age (late teens and early 20's) seem to think photography is something where they should pay little for and get a lot of final product.


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## W.Fovall

I charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints 





KmH said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Do Clients Always Want More?*
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> And I have a ready reply when they ask for more - "Sure, we can do that. All it takes is money."
> 
> The look on their face when they realize it's their money I'm referring to is priceless.
> 
> Quite a few successful retail photographers charge by the pose and by the sheet (prints). A sheet is usually an 8x10 size of print paper.
> Two 4x5 prints = an 8x10. One 16x20 = 2 8x10's. and so on.
> 
> As an example and numbers to make the math eaxy:
> 1 pose on 1 sheet = $50. That could be one pose as 2 4x5 prints or 1 paoe as an 8x10
> 1 pose on 2 sheets = $100. that could be 2 8x10's, one 16x20, 1 8x10 and 2 4x5's, or 4 4x5's.
> 2 poses on 2 sheets = $200
Click to expand...


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## KmH

Do you "charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints" as your sole means of income and paying your non-reimbursed business expenses?

Or do you only do photography part time and have other income?


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## tirediron

W.Fovall said:


> I charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints


Sounds a little low to me; assuming that the CD includes 50 high-resolution images, that should be more in the $1200 - 1500 range at a minimum.


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## W.Fovall

I also own a computer company and drive a tow truck.  





KmH said:


> Do you "charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints" as your sole means of income and paying your non-reimbursed business expenses?
> 
> Or do you only do photography part time and have other income?


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## W.Fovall

cd only cost me about $1 and the prints are only $0.19 each. I just like to shoot  feels like steeling to charge anything to make friends and play with my camera.. 





tirediron said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds a little low to me; assuming that the CD includes 50 high-resolution images, that should be more in the $1200 - 1500 range at a minimum.
Click to expand...


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## tirediron

W.Fovall said:


> cd only cost me about $1 and the prints are only $0.19 each. I just like to shoot  feels like steeling to charge anything to make friends and play with my camera..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds a little low to me; assuming that the CD includes 50 high-resolution images, that should be more in the $1200 - 1500 range at a minimum.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

If it works for you... :thumbup:


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## bribrius

the little work i do.....(not a business) and i do virtually no portrait work.
i haven't given them anywhere near all the photos i took. Considering what it cost to print and edit they wouldn't pay me enough for that.

if they wanted more i would probably figure out something reasonable. I wouldn't let crap photos out there on someones wall with my name on them either put it that way.

on the other hand...
i keep in mind, that until like 1976 or something whatever photograph a photographer took belonged to the customer. So basically, the photos wouldn't have been yours to say no to back then the photos you took belonged to the customer you were just the hire.

while that has changed, the mentality hasn't. A photographer that gives a customer a unpleasing time about getting more photos will probably quickly lose a customer and hurt their reputation that way. The customer still BELIEVES they own the photos on many accounts. And realistically, they probably should a lot of times. you disappear or drop dead, now how do they get more photos. They cant, they are screwed with you holding their photos. 

just putting it this way, to give a understanding of how a customer is.
And im honestly no different. i wanted to copy some of my kids school soccer photos once, photographer tried to sell me more with a even higher markup and didn't want the others copied.. And i take photos. i lit in to her pretty hard. Last thing i wanted to deal with was hunting her down for photos she didn't want to cough up without a large markup.

work it out with your customer, make sure you get paid, charge reasonably enough but make sure you don't tick them off, give out enough but don't give out utter crap you will kill your reputation that way as well. Remember there was a time, when every photo a photographer shot belonged to the customer. Legally, the customers property. And a lot of people still think that way. Photographers that play the hold and markup card usually quickly suffer from being replaced by their customer as people really just don't deal well in general with that.
Actually seems a lot of photographers go out of their way to tick people off sometimes maybe they should go out of business. Especially the wedding photographer horror stories i hear and holding prints and copyrights. wow. i cant believe none have been shot yet. Don't give them another reason NOT to hire a photographer they have enough already geez.


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## bribrius

W.Fovall said:


> I charge $125 a hour. includes Editing, digital CD and up to 50 4x6 prints
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Do Clients Always Want More?*
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> And I have a ready reply when they ask for more - "Sure, we can do that. All it takes is money."
> 
> The look on their face when they realize it's their money I'm referring to is priceless.
> 
> Quite a few successful retail photographers charge by the pose and by the sheet (prints). A sheet is usually an 8x10 size of print paper.
> Two 4x5 prints = an 8x10. One 16x20 = 2 8x10's. and so on.
> 
> As an example and numbers to make the math eaxy:
> 1 pose on 1 sheet = $50. That could be one pose as 2 4x5 prints or 1 paoe as an 8x10
> 1 pose on 2 sheets = $100. that could be 2 8x10's, one 16x20, 1 8x10 and 2 4x5's, or 4 4x5's.
> 2 poses on 2 sheets = $200
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


if i did more of it, i would probably just sell them the disc, and be done with it. One price for the hour, one for the shots they chose, another for the disc (once i delete out the ones i just couldn't let go they were that bad).
seems to be the way its going now too. People are selling the discs now.


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## Scatterbrained

D-B-J said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> People that came to me that wanted quantity rather than quality got referred to some other photographer.
> 
> The list of those other photographers was always changing becuase those other photographers kept going out of business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems legit. I've been trying to "start" a business. Nothing official yet, just ramping up photo-shoots and editing practice and website building etc. I realize I need to up my keeper rate, but I refuse to provide shoddy photos just so they can "have a bunch." Is it irrational to take 20 photos of a single pose and only give them one? I just received a message to the effect of "given what we payed ($50) we expected more but that's okay." Kind of a slap in the face, given that I stated (yes, next time I will have a proper contract... Face palm) that I'd provide 15-20 final images.
> 
> /endrant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Given what they paid, they're getting more than enough.  People need to understand a few things.  One, you pay for quality (as has been pointed out).  Two, just because they heard the shutter click doesn't mean they're getting that shot.  I know of several shooters who "keep the shutter going" so to speak, just to get the subjects accustomed to it and help develop a flow to the shoot.  That doesn't mean the people get every shot.    Three, they really don't need 250 pictures of themselves in the same outfit taken in the same 3 locations.  Really, they don't.  They're never going to use them.  Explain to them that a)they are getting the best shots, and b) all they will achieve by having 200+ photos from the same session is a dilution of the impact of each image.    If you opened a copy of Vogue and there were 250 shots of some model in the same three outfits from the same shoot, it'd get boring pretty fast; but when it's a half dozen very good shots it leaves a much different impression.


----------



## W.Fovall

when i do just one on one shoots i take far less shots, groups are a pain to get more than 3 people to blink at the same time... and kids never stay still..


----------



## bribrius

W.Fovall said:


> when i do just one on one shoots i take far less shots, groups are a pain to get more than 3 people to blink at the same time... and kids never stay still..


well, scatterbrain is right above too.
They don't need two hundred shots. i agree. Maybe fifty on a disc whats the difference though? i have to confess, i never heard of anyone taking two hundred photos of the same person on the same shoot, least in normal photography outside of modeling. seems real high.


----------



## D-B-J

Scatterbrained said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> People that came to me that wanted quantity rather than quality got referred to some other photographer.
> 
> The list of those other photographers was always changing becuase those other photographers kept going out of business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems legit. I've been trying to "start" a business. Nothing official yet, just ramping up photo-shoots and editing practice and website building etc. I realize I need to up my keeper rate, but I refuse to provide shoddy photos just so they can "have a bunch." Is it irrational to take 20 photos of a single pose and only give them one? I just received a message to the effect of "given what we payed ($50) we expected more but that's okay." Kind of a slap in the face, given that I stated (yes, next time I will have a proper contract... Face palm) that I'd provide 15-20 final images.
> 
> /endrant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Given what they paid, they're getting more than enough.  People need to understand a few things.  One, you pay for quality (as has been pointed out).  Two, just because they heard the shutter click doesn't mean they're getting that shot.  I know of several shooters who "keep the shutter going" so to speak, just to get the subjects accustomed to it and help develop a flow to the shoot.  That doesn't mean the people get every shot.    Three, they really don't need 250 pictures of themselves in the same outfit taken in the same 3 locations.  Really, they don't.  They're never going to use them.  Explain to them that a)they are getting the best shots, and b) all they will achieve by having 200+ photos from the same session is a dilution of the impact of each image.    If you opened a copy of Vogue and there were 250 shots of some model in the same three outfits from the same shoot, it'd get boring pretty fast; but when it's a half dozen very good shots it leaves a much different impression.
Click to expand...


Well said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## robbins.photo

W.Fovall said:


> I also own a computer company and drive a tow truck.



You own a computer company but you drive a tow truck.  Ok, have to admit I find that intriguing.

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## petrochemist

W.Fovall said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> a hour shoot i take 75-150 shots and deliver 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. I must be horribly slow I guess. Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour. I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i mainly am doing family and couple portraits outdoors... i always have it set to hi speed multi shoot and snap 3-5 shots with every button press... people tend to blink and twitch so i always shoot many of same look..
> you don't need to change the background much just a turn of the head is enough for a different look. i also shoot between when they don't think I'm shooting... kids are often the most photogenic while walking from one side of the park to the other...
Click to expand...



Surely if you take 150 shots, at 3-5 shots per button press, thats less than 50 button presses. How come you supply 50 shots with less than 50 button presses?


----------



## manaheim

sscarmack said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sscarmack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I deliver ALL the photos I take, but only edit a handful fully and I put them in two separate folders. I can spend up to an hour maybe even two on one single photo. I don't have the time and their pockets aren't deep enough to pay me to edit every photo I take fully.
> 
> All photos go through basic editing, color balance, exposure, contrast.
> 
> 
> Why do I care if the client gets all the photos? They paid me, their just going to sit on my external hard drive anyways. Might as well have someone look at them once or twice.
> 
> 
> /rambling
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is a very bad business practice. Letting images go that are not fully enhanced does two things. (1) It dillutes your brand and enhances the expectation of greater delivery for a given dollar value; and (2) It reduces the consistancy of your portfolio. People see you out because they like a particular aspect or aspects of your work. If your work has a multitude of different looks to it, it's going to confuse clients. Likewise if Suzy comes over to visit Sally, and Sally pulls out the disc with 200 images, only 10% of which are fully enhanced, neither are going to know (or remember) which is which, and Suzy, a potential new client instead of seeing 20 great images is going see (and remember 180 so-so images.
> 
> As Over said, you need an agreement/contract; even when I'm doing a TFP for a local MM model, I have an agreement which clearly spells out what she can expect. I reinforce this at the end of the session by explaining exactly what they can expect to receive and about how long it will take. On the rare occasion when they do ask for more, I respond with a polite, "No, I'm sorry, that's all of the images that are available. All others have been deleted."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I disagree with this entirely, but I respect your point of view.
> 
> People want quantity more than quality.
> 
> If they had to choose between 500 okay photos or 20 good ones, I bet 9/10 times they choose the 100.
> 
> The number one question I get asked is how many photos I take. People don't care if you go in and touch up every single hair and clone stuff out. As long as its exposed properly and looks good, they don't care. At least from what I've noticed in the past five years of doing this. Maybe its just my 'area'.
> 
> I simply tell people, I pick out my favorite from the sets and edit them fully, and only edit the others for presentable looks (Exposure, contrast, etc) (I don't touch up skin, remove stuff, etc) but they are still presentable.
> 
> 
> Just my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And its working for me.
Click to expand...


I'm just going to back John up here. I think yer crazy to follow this method. As you say, if it works for you, it works for you, but I would NEEEEEVER advise this method to anyone, especially someone starting out new.

No matter what you say, customers see a few crappy images mixed in with the good ones and they're going to think less of your work.


----------



## manaheim

And to the OP... everything over said, +1.

There is also, in my experience, some effect of strength on this. I state outright that I will take some number of images, and the client will not see all of them. It's in the contract as well. It states that they will get a representative set of the highest quality selection of the images taken, or something along those lines.

Your job as a photographer is not to spin through "film" and hand it over. Your job as a photographer is to give the client the best photographic representation of the scene, object or people they are trying to capture. As a photographer you are uniquely qualified to determine what images are the best. They are not. Otherwise, why would they need to hire a photographer?

Also... a minor trick you can pull.

Delete all the crap images and then renumber them in series from 1 on.  Then they get a contiguous set and it keeps them from wondering about the missing numbers.  I don't do this generally, but I know people who do.


----------



## paigew

Do clients always want more?? I hope so!! 

I don't have it all set up perfectly by all means, but this is how I do things right now (year 1 of business). I tell clients that after I am done processing the photos I will upload ALL the photos to an online gallery. I specify that "all" is going to be between 20-40 depending on the type of session. So right there they know they are not getting hundreds of photos. My packages include different amounts of digital files so they can by 10 for $xxx, 15 for more, and so on. Individual files can be purchased for $50 per file. 

I generally do not have people asking for additional photos. I try to have a shot in the gallery from every pose/location. With a wide variety (head shots, 3/4 body, full body, standing, sitting). Plus different groupings, if they are a family then we have individual kid shots, parent shots, sibling shots, sibling + mom, sibling + dad, etc. So they are getting a ton of photos to choose from. My clients rarely ask for more.

FWIW I take a lot of photos when children are involved. A typical family session will yield 300-500 images with final of 30-60 (I over deliver)


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## petrochemist

Jake,
As the clients were friends, how about showing the other shots to them and asking if there's any that particularly catch their eye. Get them to explain what they like about any they chose, & you could also point out to them reasons why you didn't chose the shot for your keepers.

Depending on the nature of your shoot they might see many shots they can't tell apart, or there may be shots  spoilt by a background item/someone blinking...
When they now why you left it out, they might see it in a different light, or there may be a couple where the pose is one the particularly like, which is worth a little more editing.
I know I've had shots I thought were great till some points out a slight imperfection - then ever after I see the imperfection.

I wouldn't recomend this for normal paying clients unless they're going to pay extra for the privelidge.

My clients are only non paying friends & family members, but I certainly had occations where they've wanted less. It can be can I go off & play now, or why does that camera make me look fat... but theres often a request for less in one way or another! 
No doubt if I charged they want that to be less too.


----------



## D-B-J

Thanks for all the replies. It was more of a slap in the face when she said that they expected more for what they paid. And I do agree that as the photographer I am the one qualified to decide which photos are best, not them. 

Cheers,
Jake 

P.S., this "photography business" idea is not as simple as I once thought, hahah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## astroNikon

D-B-J said:


> Thanks for all the replies. It was more of a slap in the face when she said that they expected more for what they paid. And I do agree that as the photographer I am the one qualified to decide which photos are best, not them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jake
> 
> P.S., this "photography business" idea is not as simple as I once thought, hahah
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yup, people that like quantity want snapshots .... 

real pro photographers need to deliver quality, which are worth a thousand words (and a hundred snapshots)

at least ... from what I'm learning


----------



## Steve5D

I have a very simple rule that I always make sure a client understands: "You don't get to see the bad ones".

Period.

There are _always _bad ones, and I am the sole arbiter of what is good and what is bad when deciding what a client gets.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. The exception to this rule ends up costing the client a lot more money...


----------



## astroNikon

astroNikon said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. It was more of a slap in the face *when she said that they expected more for what they paid*. And I do agree that as the photographer I am the one qualified to decide which photos are best, not them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jake
> 
> P.S., this "photography business" idea is not as simple as I once thought, hahah
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, people that like quantity want snapshots ....
> 
> real pro photographers need to deliver quality, which are worth a thousand words (and a hundred snapshots)
> 
> at least ... from what I'm learning
Click to expand...


I just realized something.
Make sure you make sure the client fully knows what the total expectations are.  If you provide leeway, you'll get asked for a lot of leeway.


----------



## D-B-J

astroNikon said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. It was more of a slap in the face *when she said that they expected more for what they paid*. And I do agree that as the photographer I am the one qualified to decide which photos are best, not them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jake
> 
> P.S., this "photography business" idea is not as simple as I once thought, hahah
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, people that like quantity want snapshots ....
> 
> real pro photographers need to deliver quality, which are worth a thousand words (and a hundred snapshots)
> 
> at least ... from what I'm learning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I just realized something.
> Make sure you make sure the client fully knows what the total expectations are.  If you provide leeway, you'll get asked for a lot of leeway.
Click to expand...


I will definitely be more explicit next time. I have two shoots tomorrow [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## W.Fovall

you guys take things to literal... Im not sitting there counting to 3 every time.. some shots get rapid fire and some don't...  I don't set a stop watch for a hour, stop doing math and go shoot.. ..  





petrochemist said:


> W.Fovall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. I must be horribly slow I guess. Wow, that's between 1 and 2 shots per minute for the entire hour. I have to admit I'm curious as to how do you get them to cycle through 50 different poses and I'm assuming at least a couple of different backgrounds that fast?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i mainly am doing family and couple portraits outdoors... i always have it set to hi speed multi shoot and snap 3-5 shots with every button press... people tend to blink and twitch so i always shoot many of same look..
> you don't need to change the background much just a turn of the head is enough for a different look. i also shoot between when they don't think I'm shooting... kids are often the most photogenic while walking from one side of the park to the other...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Surely if you take 150 shots, at 3-5 shots per button press, thats less than 50 button presses. How come you supply 50 shots with less than 50 button presses?
Click to expand...


----------



## bribrius

I don't know how you guys are taking so many shots anyway. That would drive me nuts.  On some things I end up with 1 for 10 keepers and get depressed over it. That means im a failure on 9. That is how i see it. usually im closer to 1 for 3 but that isn't on elaborate portraits more landscape buildings day and probably 1 to 4 night. Daytime simple shots of my kids or whatever im near 1 for 1.  Get me trying to bird shoot though forget about it I suck I end up tossing almost all of them be lucky with 1 for 10. Hence I usually avoid chasing birds (not to mention I don't have the equipment for it). Not only do I despise shots I failed at, I despise sorting through a crap load of images too and sorting out the keepers. Despise even pushing the shutter on a shot I had to throw a way. Despise knowing my camera just recorded a useless shutter because I messed up. wasted shutters freak me out. I always have it in my mind I SHOULD be near 1 for 1, even if it is impossible I SHOULD be.


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## astroNikon

My first kids soccer game I took over 1,000 shots.  They weren't very good shots either.
Now I take less than 300, and sometimes less than 200 per game.  But alot more are keepers and more exciting to look at (normally between 30-50% now).  And a lot less to edit and throwout.

It takes time to learn about a particular genre ... I would think weddings etc. are similar.  Once you understand the "flow", lighting, posing, etc it becomes easier to get good shots.


----------



## bribrius

astroNikon said:


> My first kids soccer game I took over 1,000 shots. They weren't very good shots either.
> Now I take less than 300, and sometimes less than 200 per game. But alot more are keepers and more exciting to look at (normally between 30-50% now). And a lot less to edit and throwout.
> 
> It takes time to learn about a particular genre ... I would think weddings etc. are similar. Once you understand the "flow", lighting, posing, etc it becomes easier to get good shots.


Makes sense I suppose. i don't do sports generally, or weddings, or even portraits. No real birding. no genre.  I do walk around photos (pick certain things) or drive somewhere and pick certain things I want a photo of. Usually night. Or photos of family or kids during days.  My next one im spending more time thinking on how to do it than doing it been thinking about it for three days. So im probably on the opposite side of this spectrum. Just seems like a lot to me. Right now I take less than a 100 shots a week most weeks.  This past week I MIGHT have hit under thirty. so opposite side of the spectrum for me.
suppose the ones doing this for a living have more a reason to snap a chit load of photos, where as I wouldn't. Im really just looking for certain ones I think. Last time I tried a portrait I think I took about fourty or fifty photos, so I can see how that would go up with different things. in perspective, in the last year I have less than four thousand shots. Out of them I have a little under a thousand for keepers, FOR THE YEAR.  so, it looks high to me. lol.


----------



## astroNikon

just keep shooting.
when I was first doing selfies I was taking 50 shots and only ONE or 2 keepers
I did selfies because taking photos of my kids I had few keepers and I couldn't keep them there just for me to experiment.
Now I have a much better idea of the lighting setup and my setup time is drastically less, and I get keepers after a short time.
as you build your experience the keepers will go up.

read more about composition, etc and you'll learn as time goes on.


----------



## bribrius

astroNikon said:


> just keep shooting.
> when I was first doing selfies I was taking 50 shots and only ONE or 2 keepers
> I did selfies because taking photos of my kids I had few keepers and I couldn't keep them there just for me to experiment.
> Now I have a much better idea of the lighting setup and my setup time is drastically less, and I get keepers after a short time.
> as you build your experience the keepers will go up.
> 
> read more about composition, etc and you'll learn as time goes on.


inside portraits kills me. I don't have the lighting set up. Anything outside daytime im pretty much gold. I've spent so much time playing with night photography shooting in the daylight seems like a picnic.  well, long as I avoid flying birds.  Night shooting im still losing too many but part of that is just from banging off ten getting the camera settings on.. 
I've become pretty adept at photographing my kids outside. And they don't have to sit still then I can get them on the move..
Havent tried a soccer game yet. And I have one that plays soccer. I might be back for advice on that....


----------



## astroNikon

I just did a walk around a nice church.  main thing is to take shots that aren't "touristy" type shots.  Anyone can take a snapshot. One has to learn to think outside of the "ooh, that looks nice" type shot.

Of course, what I think are nice shots, better photographers think are touristy  lol


----------



## D-B-J

I take so many in portrait shoots because I still am learning lighting. I really don't KNOW what I'm doing yet, so I err on the side of caution and overshoot. On the other hand, I used to shoot 200+ for a sunset and keep 2 or 3. Now I'm closer to 100 and keep 4 or 5. It all comes with time.. And lots of practice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bribrius

astroNikon said:


> I just did a walk around a nice church. main thing is to take shots that aren't "touristy" type shots. Anyone can take a snapshot. One has to learn to think outside of the "ooh, that looks nice" type shot.
> 
> Of course, what I think are nice shots, better photographers think are touristy lol


I often think this way too. There being a time and place for every type of shot. Your post here may very well be worth expanding on for discussion you bring up a important concern.



D-B-J said:


> I take so many in portrait shoots because I still am learning lighting. I really don't KNOW what I'm doing yet, so I err on the side of caution and overshoot. On the other hand, I used to shoot 200+ for a sunset and keep 2 or 3.* Now I'm closer to 100 and keep 4 or 5.* It all comes with time.. And lots of practice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


honestly dbg. I get the portrait shoot. Not so much the sunset and two hundred or one hundred problem. One thing I do, which you can do or not. Is I stopped concentrating on making a perfect photo as my sole purpose. Took less shutters and limited myself (still do) in attempts and learned to accept what I had. If I want better I need to learn to do better and do that by paying more attention to what im doing not hitting the shutter more. Reviewing my camera settings. I need to remember my settings, I need to look through my photos in post. So if I take ten tries I have ten examples to review. I take a hundred I probably wont review them all and I probably wont be happy with the photo even if I get a good one because it took me a hundred tries to get it. I really do limit my shutters and post process. Not for everyone, everyone is different. But say if I cant get a shot in ten tries I figure I don't deserve the shot yet. I wouldn't just keep going, lose track of my settings and just keep going. I would probably give myself a couple tries, stop and think. couple more tries stop and think. couple more tries or so. And that's it. what I have at that point or around that point that is where I stop.

 if I take a lot of shutters, and have to do a lot of post. The photo is going in the trash, even if it ends up being a good photo. just because it took too much to get it and that isn't how I want to shoot. I don't care about having a great photo as my first priority I care about how I took that photo. I take too many I start to feel like im rolling the dice and gambling more than photography. if I get a photo in a couple tries, it doesn't require much post, im more likely to keep it even if I know I could have done better winging it with more attempts. Because that photo is on track to where I want to be. Im down to two tries on some things now in night shooting. whatever it is, it is I end up with. If I want something better, I need to stop and think, figure out what I did wrong. Maybe you could try it for one day? Give yourself a limit, five ten shots. see if you slow down and think more and understand what is going on better while you shoot instead of getting confused over a myriad of images of the same thing with a myriad of settings. The image you result with don't think "this would be better if I took a hundred shots" think "i only have five shots in this and whatever it is with each shot I knew what I was doing, thought it out, and understand the difference in the adjustments I made".

I think im this way because if I just wanted a great photo I could go get someone elses or buy one. im really trying to learn and develop good habits and for me this is how I learn. If I end up with a crappy photo, that is my penalty it is what I deserve for not getting it in a few attempts. And ill post a 1, 2 3 attempt photo crap photo on here and show everyone. i have no shame. I also know i didn't take a thousand of them to get one good one and im on track. All in how you see it.
just a suggestion

100 shot keep 4, that would be a problem for me right there. i would put down the camera after four and do some serious thinking if i wasn't even close to what i wanted.
Lot of post process is the same thing. It gives you a crutch to fix whatever you messed up when you took the shot. Not all pp but some of it. Why i limit that too as i want to take good shots from the beginning not rely on fixing my failures in post process with every photo. Put away the post process, put away all the chances, give yourself a limit just for ONE DAY and see if your thinking changes.


----------



## D-B-J

bribrius said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did a walk around a nice church. main thing is to take shots that aren't "touristy" type shots. Anyone can take a snapshot. One has to learn to think outside of the "ooh, that looks nice" type shot.
> 
> Of course, what I think are nice shots, better photographers think are touristy lol
> 
> 
> 
> I often think this way too. There being a time and place for every type of shot. Your post here may very well be worth expanding on for discussion you bring up a important concern.
> 
> 
> 
> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take so many in portrait shoots because I still am learning lighting. I really don't KNOW what I'm doing yet, so I err on the side of caution and overshoot. On the other hand, I used to shoot 200+ for a sunset and keep 2 or 3.* Now I'm closer to 100 and keep 4 or 5.* It all comes with time.. And lots of practice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> honestly dbg. I get the portrait shoot. Not so much the sunset and two hundred or one hundred problem. One thing I do, which you can do or not. Is I stopped concentrating on making a perfect photo as my sole purpose. Took less shutters and limited myself (still do) in attempts and learned to accept what I had. If I want better I need to learn to do better and do that by paying more attention to what im doing not hitting the shutter more. Reviewing my camera settings. I need to remember my settings, I need to look through my photos in post. So if I take ten tries I have ten examples to review. I take a hundred I probably wont review them all and I probably wont be happy with the photo even if I get a good one because it took me a hundred tries to get it. I really do limit my shutters and post process. Not for everyone, everyone is different. But say if I cant get a shot in ten tries I figure I don't deserve the shot yet. I wouldn't just keep going, lose track of my settings and just keep going. I would probably give myself a couple tries, stop and think. couple more tries stop and think. couple more tries or so. And that's it. what I have at that point or around that point that is where I stop.
> 
> if I take a lot of shutters, and have to do a lot of post. The photo is going in the trash, even if it ends up being a good photo. just because it took too much to get it and that isn't how I want to shoot. I don't care about having a great photo as my first priority I care about how I took that photo. I take too many I start to feel like im rolling the dice and gambling more than photography. if I get a photo in a couple tries, it doesn't require much post, im more likely to keep it even if I know I could have done better winging it with more attempts. Because that photo is on track to where I want to be. Im down to two tries on some things now in night shooting. whatever it is, it is I end up with. If I want something better, I need to stop and think, figure out what I did wrong. Maybe you could try it for one day? Give yourself a limit, five ten shots. see if you slow down and think more and understand what is going on better while you shoot instead of getting confused over a myriad of images of the same thing with a myriad of settings. The image you result with don't think "this would be better if I took a hundred shots" think "i only have five shots in this and whatever it is with each shot I knew what I was doing, thought it out, and understand the difference in the adjustments I made".
> 
> I think im this way because if I just wanted a great photo I could go get someone elses or buy one. im really trying to learn and develop good habits and for me this is how I learn. If I end up with a crappy photo, that is my penalty it is what I deserve for not getting it in a few attempts. And ill post a 1, 2 3 attempt photo crap photo on here and show everyone. i have no shame. I also know i didn't take a thousand of them to get one good one and im on track. All in how you see it.
> just a suggestion
> 
> 100 shot keep 4, that would be a problem for me right there. i would put down the camera after four and do some serious thinking if i wasn't even close to what i wanted.
> Lot of post process is the same thing. It gives you a crutch to fix whatever you messed up when you took the shot. Not all pp but some of it. Why i limit that too as i want to take good shots from the beginning not rely on fixing my failures in post process with every photo. Put away the post process, put away all the chances, give yourself a limit just for ONE DAY and see if your thinking changes.
Click to expand...


While I understand what you're saying, I disagree to an extent.  Sunsets, like the one I shot the other night, change from second to second.  The sun flits out and behind the clouds, the water movement changes, the intensity of the waves change, the wind changes, etc.  All minute-to-minute.  So it's not JUST about shooting the perfect photo once, it's about getting the settings right and then taking a photo for each change in conditions.  Over the course of a near 2 hour shoot? 100 is not unreasonable.


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## bribrius

D-B-J said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did a walk around a nice church. main thing is to take shots that aren't "touristy" type shots. Anyone can take a snapshot. One has to learn to think outside of the "ooh, that looks nice" type shot.
> 
> Of course, what I think are nice shots, better photographers think are touristy lol
> 
> 
> 
> I often think this way too. There being a time and place for every type of shot. Your post here may very well be worth expanding on for discussion you bring up a important concern.
> 
> 
> 
> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take so many in portrait shoots because I still am learning lighting. I really don't KNOW what I'm doing yet, so I err on the side of caution and overshoot. On the other hand, I used to shoot 200+ for a sunset and keep 2 or 3.* Now I'm closer to 100 and keep 4 or 5.* It all comes with time.. And lots of practice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> honestly dbg. I get the portrait shoot. Not so much the sunset and two hundred or one hundred problem. One thing I do, which you can do or not. Is I stopped concentrating on making a perfect photo as my sole purpose. Took less shutters and limited myself (still do) in attempts and learned to accept what I had. If I want better I need to learn to do better and do that by paying more attention to what im doing not hitting the shutter more. Reviewing my camera settings. I need to remember my settings, I need to look through my photos in post. So if I take ten tries I have ten examples to review. I take a hundred I probably wont review them all and I probably wont be happy with the photo even if I get a good one because it took me a hundred tries to get it. I really do limit my shutters and post process. Not for everyone, everyone is different. But say if I cant get a shot in ten tries I figure I don't deserve the shot yet. I wouldn't just keep going, lose track of my settings and just keep going. I would probably give myself a couple tries, stop and think. couple more tries stop and think. couple more tries or so. And that's it. what I have at that point or around that point that is where I stop.
> 
> if I take a lot of shutters, and have to do a lot of post. The photo is going in the trash, even if it ends up being a good photo. just because it took too much to get it and that isn't how I want to shoot. I don't care about having a great photo as my first priority I care about how I took that photo. I take too many I start to feel like im rolling the dice and gambling more than photography. if I get a photo in a couple tries, it doesn't require much post, im more likely to keep it even if I know I could have done better winging it with more attempts. Because that photo is on track to where I want to be. Im down to two tries on some things now in night shooting. whatever it is, it is I end up with. If I want something better, I need to stop and think, figure out what I did wrong. Maybe you could try it for one day? Give yourself a limit, five ten shots. see if you slow down and think more and understand what is going on better while you shoot instead of getting confused over a myriad of images of the same thing with a myriad of settings. The image you result with don't think "this would be better if I took a hundred shots" think "i only have five shots in this and whatever it is with each shot I knew what I was doing, thought it out, and understand the difference in the adjustments I made".
> 
> I think im this way because if I just wanted a great photo I could go get someone elses or buy one. im really trying to learn and develop good habits and for me this is how I learn. If I end up with a crappy photo, that is my penalty it is what I deserve for not getting it in a few attempts. And ill post a 1, 2 3 attempt photo crap photo on here and show everyone. i have no shame. I also know i didn't take a thousand of them to get one good one and im on track. All in how you see it.
> just a suggestion
> 
> 100 shot keep 4, that would be a problem for me right there. i would put down the camera after four and do some serious thinking if i wasn't even close to what i wanted.
> Lot of post process is the same thing. It gives you a crutch to fix whatever you messed up when you took the shot. Not all pp but some of it. Why i limit that too as i want to take good shots from the beginning not rely on fixing my failures in post process with every photo. Put away the post process, put away all the chances, give yourself a limit just for ONE DAY and see if your thinking changes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> While I understand what you're saying, I disagree to an extent. Sunsets, like the one I shot the other night, change from second to second. The sun flits out and behind the clouds, the water movement changes, the intensity of the waves change, the wind changes, etc. All minute-to-minute. So it's not JUST about shooting the perfect photo once, it's about getting the settings right and then taking a photo for each change in conditions. Over the course of a near 2 hour shoot? 100 is not unreasonable.
Click to expand...


i'd be looking for that 15-20 minute window peak time in both a sunset and sunrise. Like i said. i understand. Everyone is different.


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## D-B-J

bribrius said:


> D-B-J said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> 
> I often think this way too. There being a time and place for every type of shot. Your post here may very well be worth expanding on for discussion you bring up a important concern.
> 
> honestly dbg. I get the portrait shoot. Not so much the sunset and two hundred or one hundred problem. One thing I do, which you can do or not. Is I stopped concentrating on making a perfect photo as my sole purpose. Took less shutters and limited myself (still do) in attempts and learned to accept what I had. If I want better I need to learn to do better and do that by paying more attention to what im doing not hitting the shutter more. Reviewing my camera settings. I need to remember my settings, I need to look through my photos in post. So if I take ten tries I have ten examples to review. I take a hundred I probably wont review them all and I probably wont be happy with the photo even if I get a good one because it took me a hundred tries to get it. I really do limit my shutters and post process. Not for everyone, everyone is different. But say if I cant get a shot in ten tries I figure I don't deserve the shot yet. I wouldn't just keep going, lose track of my settings and just keep going. I would probably give myself a couple tries, stop and think. couple more tries stop and think. couple more tries or so. And that's it. what I have at that point or around that point that is where I stop.
> 
> if I take a lot of shutters, and have to do a lot of post. The photo is going in the trash, even if it ends up being a good photo. just because it took too much to get it and that isn't how I want to shoot. I don't care about having a great photo as my first priority I care about how I took that photo. I take too many I start to feel like im rolling the dice and gambling more than photography. if I get a photo in a couple tries, it doesn't require much post, im more likely to keep it even if I know I could have done better winging it with more attempts. Because that photo is on track to where I want to be. Im down to two tries on some things now in night shooting. whatever it is, it is I end up with. If I want something better, I need to stop and think, figure out what I did wrong. Maybe you could try it for one day? Give yourself a limit, five ten shots. see if you slow down and think more and understand what is going on better while you shoot instead of getting confused over a myriad of images of the same thing with a myriad of settings. The image you result with don't think "this would be better if I took a hundred shots" think "i only have five shots in this and whatever it is with each shot I knew what I was doing, thought it out, and understand the difference in the adjustments I made".
> 
> I think im this way because if I just wanted a great photo I could go get someone elses or buy one. im really trying to learn and develop good habits and for me this is how I learn. If I end up with a crappy photo, that is my penalty it is what I deserve for not getting it in a few attempts. And ill post a 1, 2 3 attempt photo crap photo on here and show everyone. i have no shame. I also know i didn't take a thousand of them to get one good one and im on track. All in how you see it.
> just a suggestion
> 
> 100 shot keep 4, that would be a problem for me right there. i would put down the camera after four and do some serious thinking if i wasn't even close to what i wanted.
> Lot of post process is the same thing. It gives you a crutch to fix whatever you messed up when you took the shot. Not all pp but some of it. Why i limit that too as i want to take good shots from the beginning not rely on fixing my failures in post process with every photo. Put away the post process, put away all the chances, give yourself a limit just for ONE DAY and see if your thinking changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While I understand what you're saying, I disagree to an extent. Sunsets, like the one I shot the other night, change from second to second. The sun flits out and behind the clouds, the water movement changes, the intensity of the waves change, the wind changes, etc. All minute-to-minute. So it's not JUST about shooting the perfect photo once, it's about getting the settings right and then taking a photo for each change in conditions. Over the course of a near 2 hour shoot? 100 is not unreasonable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i'd be looking for that 15-20 minute window peak time in both a sunset and sunrise. Like i said. i understand. Everyone is different.
Click to expand...


To each his own; that's what makes the world go round.


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## TammyCampbell

I think everyone always wants more.. You just have to gently tell and show them why some shots were not acceptable for your body of work.. And how though  they might like it the photo might reflect badly on your professionalism. Outside non professional opinion here.


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## Steve5D

astroNikon said:


> Of course, what I think are nice shots, better photographers think are touristy



Shoot what you want, and don't worry about what someone, who you _think _might be a better photographer, thinks about your shots...


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## paigew

When I first got my DSLR my father in law gave me great advice..."shoot a lot...film is cheap" . Trust me, you will become more selective with your shutter as you spend more and more hours culling images.


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## stephenmattiola

I as well am new to the hobby but I have had this once. What I like to do is that if I have a really well composed image I will give it to them as a copy in Black and White also cause it kind of stirs things up a bit. People do not understand the time and energy that can go into editing 20 photos.
Cheers


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## xzyragon

D-B-J said:


> I take so many in portrait shoots because I still am learning lighting. I really don't KNOW what I'm doing yet, so I err on the side of caution and overshoot. On the other hand, I used to shoot 200+ for a sunset and keep 2 or 3. Now I'm closer to 100 and keep 4 or 5. It all comes with time.. And lots of practice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm in the same kind of boat.  And when I've gotten my work critiqued, i was focusing too much on "capturing a moment" and too little on the framing, composition, pose, or lighting.  Basically I think the people that will be best off are those who learned on film, to really set up, pose, compose, and light their subject, and wait for the perfect shot, instead of just getting it OK, blasting away on the shutter button, and getting half-decent shots.

To combat this, i've set up a bunch of free, non-paid shoots through my local college (UCSD) to get a lot of practice and build my portfolio, until I feel comfortable charging a lot more than just processing and transportation fees for a shoot.  It helps a lot when you aren't relying on photography as your main source of income.


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## Forkie

My portrait sessions are generally about 3 hours long.  I usually snap somewhere between 350-500 images in that time during chatting and laughing and joking to get some really natural facial expressions, so naturally in between the good ones there will be crap ones. 

After a shoot, I remove any where the subject's eyes are closed (unless it looks particularly interesting!) or if I missed the focus.  I leave everything else in whether I like the image or not, run an auto colour correct through Lightroom on all of them and put them in a proofing gallery.  I then get the _client_ to choose 3 that they want, then I properly run those 3 through Photoshop.  

This way, the client will get only the ones they want, not the ones you want.  That's it.  If they want any more, they pay for more.

Make sure the number of images that you will supply and how they will be chosen is stated right at the beginning whether it be in a contract or an email.


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## tirediron

Forkie said:


> ...Make sure the number of images that you will supply and how they will be chosen is stated right at the beginning whether it be in a contract or an email.


From a business perspective, this isn't, IMO, perhaps the best way.  Addressing the second part first, unless it's in a signed contract, it's probably worthless since anyone can 'not see' something in an e-mail.  They can of course equally 'not see' something in a contract, but when they've signed the document stating that they have read and agree to the terms, there's  much less room for them to make trouble.

Something that drives me bat-s**t crazy, and something I see  sooooo many 'Craig's List' shooters doing is offering ridiculous numbers of images (usually on a CD) as part of their session fee.  First, never, ever promise a set number of images.  If you must promise something, keep it at least somewhat nebulous; "A session usually produces about XX images for review" or words to that effect.  Better yet, don't promise anything at all.  They come in pay their $50, 100, or 200 for the session and then decide what they want at the proofing session.


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## KmH

D-B-J said:


> [h=2]Do Clients Always Want More?[/h]Cheers!
> Jake


Not if you under promise and over deliver.


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## Austin Greene

D-B-J said:


> So, I recently did a photoshoot for two of my friends.  Paid (not excessively, but I'm still a newb), and said they could expect 15-20+ images from an hour or so of shooting.  I delivered 19, and she _insists _that there are more good ones etc. and she wants to come look at all the images.  Now, I've had this issue almost every time I shoot.  I deliver what I think are the best (and some that aren't technically perfect but I know the client will love), and yet they ALWAYS want more.  Am I being too selective?  Or are they being greedy?  I've had lengthly debates with my parents about this topic, and am interested as to what others think. Is it irrational to shoot 275 and deliver 19?  I don't know if it's because I'm still so new to portraiture or something else, but I get about 10 GOOD images for every 100 I take.  Granted, we were laughing and goofing around a bunch, so a fair amount are silly/unposed images, but still.  Maybe I just need to up my keeper percentage?
> 
> Cheers!
> Jake



I haven't been at this long enough to say what you _should _do, but I can tell you what I do, and what has worked well for me. 

A one hour shoot with me will get a client 3-6 keeper images. I tell them three, and they agree to that before we ever shoot. I spend the first 20 minutes or so walking with them, getting them comfy, and then we slowly warm up in the photos. I probably take...80 shots? Most are metering my flash since these are all outdoors. 

I think what I'm trying to get to is that, for me, arranging with clients to expect a relatively few number of images from the get go is immensely helpful. I charge more than most (and I plan on raising rates), but I market as my three images being better than the 15-60 they'd get otherwise. Quality over quantity. The convenient bit is that those clients who agree are often _quality_ clients, people who are looking for solid images, and who don't flake. They also have high referral rates. I'll typically end up with about 10 keepers, so I send six of them their way. They get more photos than they expected, and I don't sink hours and hours into editing 50 shots.

Edit: I should also say that I never give a client all the photos. Not because I don't want to, but simply because it takes up too much time to convert all those RAW files, and I know they simply would toss or never use most of them. It's a hassle, and IMO my time is better spent making sure they get the couple great images they expect, plus one or two extras they don't.


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## Civchic

<---- Not a professional, has no intention of becoming one, especially not at portraiture.

But I can come at this from a client's perspective.  I have a photographer, I've gotten family portraits done every 6-10 months since my son was almost 1 (he's almost 5).  Including a newborn shoot for my daughter.  My photographer charges $400 for a family shoot, which is about an hour (this is high for the local economy).  In the contract it states we'll receive 15 edited images.  Usually she ends us editing 20-25, then putting up a low-res online watermarked gallery, and we can choose 15 of them for her to give us the high-res images.  She charges $75 per image if we'd like to purchase the other high res images in the gallery.

It works well - we always only get our 15 pictures for the base price, but it gives us a "bit to choose from".  And if we actually DO want more than the 15, we are free to pay for them.  She has created the opportunity for a little extra cash flow.  15 is usually just plenty, but I have to admit that for my daughter's newborn shoot, I did purchase an extra three.  That's $225 she never would have seen if she had only shown me the best 15, instead of the best 25.


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## rexbobcat

vintagesnaps said:


> I think you sort of answered this yourself - yes you need to increase your keeper rate, no it doesn't make sense to take 275 photos and provide 20. Your friends aren't dummies (at least I would think that), they know you fired off a helluva lot of shots - so where are they?? They can't help but realize how much you fired off your camera - and they got 20 pictures? Probably doesn't make sense to them.  I've done sports/events and I learned how to get it in camera most of the time, but a higher keeper rate would give you less crappy shots to sort thru and more usable shots to be able to use.  You probably need to work toward handling shoots in a more business like way to be taken seriously as a pro photographer. If you want to take photos of your friends just for practice and to have fun with it, make it clear that's what you're doing, taking lots of photos to learn and get in some practice - help them have realistic expectations.



Sports and events are different from portraits.


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## rexbobcat

I always deliver between 20-25 DIFFERENT images regardless of how much a client whines. I don't know why anyone would want 15 extra images of the same pose/lighting/location etc...

That's why I enjoy shooting for publications. You give them 5-10 useable images and they're grateful because that's all they really need.


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## keyseddie

I'm waiting for my company from Ontario so I read all of these pages.  Nobody except maybe tirediron touched on what I'm thinking, probably because his clientele is older.
If you are one of many photographers in your area that does portraits, or products, or food or produces art, you will surely attract the kind of clients consistently mentioned in all 6 pages here. If you happen to be one of one, someone who produces either the most respected quality of a particular genre, or have a particular singular style of your own, you will NEVER have to deal with this kind of issue. If you are a true professional photographer, then find out the top people in the world in your chosen specialty and try and determine what to do to arrive in that rarified air. If you have the talent, it's doable.
As for all the shots, a question. Why can't you decide on your 4 or 5 or more poses if you're a portrait person, shoot one pose one time, chimp it to see if you're lighting and expressions work, and shoot it again if needed, and move on to the next pose? If you need to shoot over 100 frames at a portrait session, you just may be telling your client you're not sure what you are doing and yes, maybe they should want to see them all.


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## Civchic

keyseddie said:


> I'm waiting for my company from Ontario so I read all of these pages. Nobody except maybe tirediron touched on what I'm thinking, probably because his clientele is older.
> If you are one of many photographers in your area that does portraits, or products, or food or produces art, you will surely attract the kind of clients consistently mentioned in all 6 pages here. If you happen to be one of one, someone who produces either the most respected quality of a particular genre, or have a particular singular style of your own, you will NEVER have to deal with this kind of issue. If you are a true professional photographer, then find out the top people in the world in your chosen specialty and try and determine what to do to arrive in that rarified air. If you have the talent, it's doable.
> As for all the shots, a question. Why can't you decide on your 4 or 5 or more poses if you're a portrait person, shoot one pose one time, chimp it to see if you're lighting and expressions work, and shoot it again if needed, and move on to the next pose? If you need to shoot over 100 frames at a portrait session, you just may be telling your client you're not sure what you are doing and yes, maybe they should want to see them all.




Keyseddie, again from a client perspective - I understood this to be non-professional models.  As in, a family photoshoot or a kids shoot.  Even an engagement photos session.  If you have a professional model who knows how to sit and take direction, what you describe makes sense.  If you're doing an outdoor photo shoot with a couple who've had professional pictures done once, maybe twice before (their wedding), and their maniac children, you're going to have a lot more images.

Speaking as a fat, awkward girl who never knows how to hold her face when a camera is pointing her way - I am SURE that my photographer went "Eugh, no!" several times while downloading photos and tossed those in the trash.  How do you get me and the three people I am related to all posed nicely without a stupid face or blinked eyes in only 3 shots?


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## DeadEye

I hit the delete on most test shots, Why keep them?  Did not have that luxury in the ole days (film).  To me a high quality shot of what I have envisioned is a done deal the rest go by-by


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## keyseddie

Clients of a portrait photographer are not models. They are the people you describe above, Civchic. Still, a huge part of a PROFESSIONAL portrait photographer is managing the session. Also, the fact that a person or persons may not be as attractive as they may wish themselves to be, is simply a challenge that you deal with successfully. If you or anyone else took their family to an accomplished and professional portrait photographer, you would be surprised and delighted at their success. Problem is, with the proliferation of watermark photographers, the profession has been diluted enormously.


----------

