# My other hobby



## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

2013112401 by J E, on Flickr

(I really need a new couch...)


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## D-B-J (Nov 24, 2013)

What is it..?


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Lock picking.

The one laying on the pinning mat (open) is a Commando brand padlock - pretty decent lock, actually.


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## manaheim (Nov 24, 2013)

You know, I wound up having my character simply "reach for her pick and tension wrench", but you've got this giant sleeve of the damned things. I may need to adjust that.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

manaheim said:


> You know, I wound up having my character simply "reach for her pick and tension wrench", but you've got this giant sleeve of the damned things. I may need to adjust that.


I don't lug that kit around all the time.  Those are my "nice" picks.  My every-day-carry set is very small and compact.  I never leave the house without a lock picking set, lol.  Just habit...

I do use them fairly often though - especially at work.  We use golf carts to drive around the facility, and they're usually locked up.  Rather than cutting the lock/chain, I'll offer to open it.


This is what I usually carry:



2013052021 by J E, on Flickr




2013052019 by J E, on Flickr


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## manaheim (Nov 24, 2013)

Maybe I could switch the line to something like 'She reached for her trusty sparrows lock pick set..." or something.  It's pretty quick. It's a reflex reaction of a thief (who is now an angel) and she instantly realizes how silly it is to be looking for them when she's dead... I may be overthinking this. lol


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

That hook with the little notch in it is especially useful for Medeco locks (high security - the standard lock used by the US gov't) - the pins not only have to be lifted, but rotated.  The notch lets you grab the end of the pin and rotate it as needed.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Maybe I could switch the line to something like 'She reached for her trusty sparrows lock pick set..." or something.  It's pretty quick. It's a reflex reaction of a thief (who is now an angel) and she instantly realizes how silly it is to be looking for them when she's dead... I may be overthinking this. lol


Sparrows picks are pretty much standard for a lot of Gov't agencies, but I think I'd tend to not mention brand names.  Anyone serious about it would likely be making their own picks as well.

Most of my picks are homemade, but the factory ones are just more compact - and they're nice picks too.


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## manaheim (Nov 24, 2013)

Ah ok.  Good tips . Thank you.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Just seems like it would be more timeless to omit brand names.  Check out that Peterson page I linked on FB though (Lock Pick, Bypass Tools - Peterson Manufacturing Locksmith Tools), so you know the names of different picks.  Peterson makes good picks too, and can pretty much be considered industry standard.  They tend to be a little rough around the edges though.  A serious picker would hit them with some sandpaper before use.  Sparrows are the only brand I've seen that don't require sanding.  (They also have really nice cases.)

"Feedback" is one term you should get familiar with - being able to FEEL what is going on inside the lock through the pick.  Since you can't see the inside, you're mostly going on feel.  Some picks have good feedback, some don't.  This is mostly due to the handle material.  The more solid it is, the better the feedback.

HPC is another brand used by many locksmiths, but, again - requires a little cleaning up.

Sparrows picks tend to be a little pricier, but they're the only ones that are ready to go right out of the box.  Some people buy them just for the case they come in, lol.


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## IByte (Nov 24, 2013)

You don't live in NY do you lol.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Texas.


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## mishele (Nov 24, 2013)

So Josh, how much money are you makin with this hobby?


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

You should check your local laws before buying, but as far as I know - owning picks is never illegal.  CARRYING them can be though.  In Texas, they are just like any other "burglar tool" (crow bar, for example) - possession is only illegal if you are in the act of committing a crime.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

mishele said:


> So Josh, how much money are you makin with this hobby?


Not as much as I should be...

There seems to be a demand for my custom picks, but I'm lazy and can't make them fast enough to sell, lol!


You do start REALLY looking at every lock you see though.  You'd be surprised how many businesses are "protected" by cheap locks that are very easy to pick...


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## mishele (Nov 24, 2013)

I wasn't talking about selling picks, silly! lol


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

mishele said:


> I wasn't talking about selling picks, silly! lol


I figured that.  I'm too honest for that, lol.


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## mishele (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't talking about selling picks, silly! lol
> ...


Hehe That is a perfect answer!!


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

There is a term in the locksport community - "Security through obscurity".  This is the idea that locks are secure because most people do not know that they aren't secure.

Some people swear by this.  I think it's a bad idea though.  People should KNOW that locks aren't as secure as they think they are.  This will drive lock makers to make better locks.


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## IByte (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> There is a term in the locksport community - "Security through obscurity".  This is the idea that locks are secure because most people do not know that they aren't secure.
> 
> Some people swear by this.  I think it's a bad idea though.  People should KNOW that locks aren't as secure as they think they are.  This will drive lock makers to make better locks.



Yes even "Security through Obscurity"  in cyberspace is pretty weak, oh how I love my job .


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## manaheim (Nov 24, 2013)

Well odds are she won't ever pick a lock. She's an archangel with a sword.  Lol I just need her to have a hint of competence in the space.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> You should check your local laws before buying, but as far as I know - owning picks is never illegal.  CARRYING them can be though.  In Texas, they are just like any other "burglar tool" (crow bar, for example) - possession is only illegal if you are in the act of committing a crime.



Intent is a gray area folks, according to the Texas Private Security Law, a person must be registered as a Locksmith with the Texas Department of Public Safety in order to operate as a locksmith and perform Locksmithing work. So you can state your intensions are admirable when questioned by the local PD but if you're not registered with the DPS, you could very well be view as a person holding burglary tools. 

Times has really changed since my day as a Locksmith. Manufactures was strict about selling locksmithing tools to locksmiths only. You couldn't find photos of equipment or information on how to defeat a locking mechanism either. Now days anyone with a credit card and internet can order a set of locksmithing toolsor build a set based on photos posted on the internet. What is the point of a lock set if everyone has the means and know how to defeat it?

Anyhow, if you want a real challenge, try impressioning a key. Impressioning is the ability to create a key for a lock set by using a file, pliers, and a key blank.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Tailgunner said:


> Intent is a gray area folks, according to the Texas Private Security Law, a person must be registered as a Locksmith with the Texas Department of Public Safety in order to operate as a locksmith and perform Locksmithing work.


The key word here is WORK.  Yes, to be a locksmith, you must be registered and all of that (in Texas - other States have little to no requirements).

Times have changed.  Secrets are spilling out into the open.  I see that as a good thing - it can only lead to better security.

Picking locks is not a profession, being a locksmith is.  There is a definite difference.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Impressioning is another fun aspect of this hobby.



Tailgunner said:


> What is the point of a lock set if everyone has the means and know how to defeat it?


The point is to bring deficiencies to the forefront.  Make the weak points public knowledge, make the lock manufacturers address and correct them.  Everyone benefits.


This is basically EXACTLY what I was talking about when I mentioned security through obscurity.  You would rather the secrets remain a secret, and thus - secure.  I would rather everyone know that the lock on their front door is junk.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

The Commando Lock Company has reached out to the locksport community, given away sample locks for picking, improved their designs after hearing the feedback from lock pickers.  More companies should do this.

Commando is the only padlock I can give an honest recommendation for.  Their dedication to the community speaks volumes...

(Though I do like Yale, and to some extent, Brinks.)

Master is crap though, lol.  Yes, bulletproof, but you can open it with a paperclip.  They don't show that part in the commercials.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> Tailgunner said:
> 
> 
> > Intent is a gray area folks, according to the Texas Private Security Law, a person must be registered as a Locksmith with the Texas Department of Public Safety in order to operate as a locksmith and perform Locksmithing work.
> ...



Opening a lock or vehicle for someone, anyone, falls under the profession of a Locksmithing. Doing so without being registered with the DPS is technically violating the law. Having locksmithing tools on your person's without being registered with the DPS puts you at risk. It's food for thought. 



As for secrets spilling over to the public sector helps create better security. Better secure lock sets has been around for decades and their still good today due to a lack of public knowledge. 

Anyhow, There is more to locksmithing that picking a lock. Hell, I picked my first lock was I was 10 years old. If someone feels their okay using a Quickset lock instead of Medeco etc, what can you do? Heck, even Quickset is starting to install Mushroom pins and Schlag is incorporating Side pins. The other thing about about locks, their only half the battle. The old saying "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" holds true with securing a home. Installing a Medeco or Best lock set on a cheap hollow exterior door isn't going to do a person much good. That or installing a single sided lock cylinder on a set of french doors or does with windows near the inside knob. A thief can smash the window faster than you can gran your pick set.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> The Commando Lock Company has reached out to the locksport community, given away sample locks for picking, improved their designs after hearing the feedback from lock pickers.  More companies should do this.
> 
> Commando is the only padlock I can give an honest recommendation for.  Their dedication to the community speaks volumes...
> 
> ...




So what makes a Commando special?


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

I never said that locksmithing was merely picking locks.  I know better than most what is involved.  I won't belittle your profession, I actually have respect for it.  I just think that we have different philosophies about security.



Tailgunner said:


> As for secrets spilling over to the public sector helps create better security. Better secure lock sets has been around for decades and their still good today due to a lack of public knowledge.


Lack of public knowledge can NEVER be used as an example of why a given lock is secure.  That is where you and I part ways and take a different path.  No lock is unpickable. If a key can be made, a pick can be made as well.  You ought to know that.  Some locks (abloy protec series, as an example) are not known to have been picked, but in theory - it's possible.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

Tailgunner said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > The Commando Lock Company has reached out to the locksport community, given away sample locks for picking, improved their designs after hearing the feedback from lock pickers.  More companies should do this.
> ...


The fact that they recognize that their locks can be picked, and that they look to the locksport community to make their locks harder to pick.  That is extremely rare, maybe even unique.

They are the example that more companies should follow.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

They seek input from lock pickers, and they ACT on it.

They actually "want" to make a better lock...


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## amolitor (Nov 24, 2013)

The thing about locks is that bad guys actually don't pick them all that often. Why am I going to fuss around picking some lock when, generally, I can kick something in and be inside in a matter of seconds, without any tools at all?

All a lock does is inform more or less honest people that they're not supposed to be in there, and to persuade somewhat less honest but basically lazy people to move along. Since most crooks are "less honest but basically lazy" like most of us, this works surprisingly well.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

amolitor said:


> All a lock does is inform more or less honest people that they're not supposed to be in there, and to persuade somewhat less honest but basically lazy people to move along. Since most crooks are "less honest but basically lazy" like most of us, this works surprisingly well.


I'm sure that the people who make locks would disagree with you.

Also, you have probably never seen a high security lock.

(That's not a comment a person familiar with high security locks would make.)


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## Tailgunner (Nov 24, 2013)

O|||||||O said:


> If a key can be made, a pick can be made as well.  You ought to know that.  Some locks (abloy protec series, as an example) are not known to have been picked, but in theory - it's possible.



Generally speaking lock picking only works on about 80% of your average locks and when that falls, you can either impression a key or drill the lock.




O|||||||O said:


> They seek input from lock pickers, and they ACT on it.
> 
> They actually "want" to make a better lock...



So what have they actually improved based on this collaboration with Locksports? Commando is relatively new but what I've seen doing a quick search doesn't really show anything new or innovative. They use ball barring shackles which is nice but nothing new. They list pick resistant which I'm guessing is the use of Mushroom pins, again, nothing new. The lock body resembles the old 1970-1980's pad locksthe ones people used to shoot off barn doors with their rifles.


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## Josh66 (Nov 24, 2013)

I can see that there's no reasoning with you.  You're too smart for that.  You were right all along, this lock picking business is all secret squirrel stuff.  There's no point letting the masses know about it, hell, they're probably not even white.  Why should we let them into our club?

(I'm sure this will be censored, deleted- whatever.   It's a parody.  Delete it if you like, I don't really care...)

[fart sounds]

This thread has grown 'stupid' to me, and I no longer care what happens to it.


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## IByte (Nov 24, 2013)

I guess I may as well throw a way my books, stupid words.  Lockpicking whether hardcopy or virtual is about solving a riddle.   

Or better yet back my days I had a rubiks cube.  To me is problem solving.  As far as kicking doors then you don't need to be a thief.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 24, 2013)

amolitor said:


> The thing about locks is that bad guys actually don't pick them all that often. Why am I going to fuss around picking some lock when, generally, I can kick something in and be inside in a matter of seconds, without any tools at all?
> 
> All a lock does is inform more or less honest people that they're not supposed to be in there, and to persuade somewhat less honest but basically lazy people to move along. Since most crooks are "less honest but basically lazy" like most of us, this works surprisingly well.



All a lock does is keep an honest thief honest. I once had a burglar take a crow bar to my back door. 90% of all home burglaries are the result of a door being kicked down or pried open. Pad locks are no different, most criminals just cut the shackle.


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## amolitor (Nov 25, 2013)

Lock picking is a fun, interesting, a useful skill. Nothing against lock picking.

But as to why most locks are pretty easy to pick, and why lock manufacturers don't seem to care, think on this: Almost every time a lock is picked, it's picked by a good guy. It's just not something bad guys bother with, except in pretty special circumstances.

In most cases using a lock that's hard to pick is over-engineering that one component of the total "security system" and as such would just be a waste of money.

That is the point I was trying to make.


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## runnah (Nov 25, 2013)

Obscure movie reference.


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## IByte (Nov 25, 2013)

runnah said:


> Obscure movie reference.
> YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG5vsPJ5Tos



 .....and still a good movie after all this time


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## Stevepwns (Nov 25, 2013)

I am a locksmith as my current trade.   Lock picking is the single most pain in the a$$ thing I have to do. I enjoy pinning cores, but the lock picking drives me nuts.


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## Tailgunner (Nov 25, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> I am a locksmith as my current trade.   Lock picking is the single most pain in the a$$ thing I have to do. I enjoy pinning cores, but the lock picking drives me nuts.



Cool, I used to do locksmithing back in the day but switched fields about 10 yrs ago. 

Picking locks can be a PITA for sure. Odd thing for me was, I could pick locks on the bench until the cows come home but had issues with it out in the field. It's one thing to pick locks on your bench in a nice comfertable office/shop but it's another thing to pick a lock when it's 20-30 degrees outside.


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