# An old camera...



## Img (Jun 11, 2012)

I've been interested in photography for years now, but only recently I have found out that my grandma has an old camera. She is very... grumpy, so she is hard to talk to, or even harder to get anything from, so I'd rather to research the matter first.

She likely has a camera from around 1960s, could be a bit older I guess. I assume it wouldn't be of the "very best" brands, but rather the cheapest/averagely priced ones.

I am quite poor, so I couldn't pay for various services or whatever would be required for such an old piece of equipment. How could I "make" photos and would the current film even work with it? I believe the film doesn't cost too much, like $0.50-1 or so, which consider that there's 30 shots, would be okay.

What should I do? Should I even bother with it, or it's not worth trying anyway, considering all the mentioned circumstances?


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## Atari1977 (Jun 11, 2012)

Do you have any idea what kind of camera it is? Assuming it's a 35mm you'll need to buy film obviously, depending on what film you buy it's anywhere from $4-9 per roll. Once you get them developed(price varies from lab to lab, you'll want to find the closest one to you first) it depends what you want to do. You can get proofs made and just enlarge the ones you like or you could scan your pictures to edit assuming you don't have access to a dark room.


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## BlueMeanieTSi (Jun 11, 2012)

If it's anything other than 35mm I'm finding no matter thow much the film costs it'll kill you to have it developed.


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## Img (Jun 11, 2012)

I guess I'll go meet my grandma tomorrow, there's many factors as I can see... I'll update this topic after.


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## Img (Jun 12, 2012)

This is the camera: "Zenit E." What can I do with it, and how much would it cost me?


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## Joshonator (Jun 12, 2012)

Its about 20$ body only 
ZENIT-E Russian SLR Camera body #75291072 | eBayI have a Zenit B and its a good quality camera. They both use standard 35mm film so that wouldn't be an issue.


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## Solarflare (Jun 12, 2012)

Um.

You dont know how to use Google ?

Zenit-E - Camerapedia


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## Mike_E (Jun 12, 2012)

Here also.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenit_(camera) .  

If you get this, update this or send me a PM and I'll give you some links that would be helpful to read before you start your photographic journey (and it's going to be a trip!).

The camera sounds to be a good place to start and if it's working now should last a while if taken care of.

Good luck

mike


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## Buckster (Jun 12, 2012)

Here's the site for camera manuals:

Zenith E free user manual, instruction manual

I make donations when I download from Butkus to help keep that resource for us all, and recommend a small donation from those who use it and can afford a buck or two to help out.


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## Img (Jun 12, 2012)

Mike_E said:


> Here also.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenit_(camera) .
> 
> If you get this, update this or send me a PM and I'll give you some links that would be helpful to read before you start your photographic journey (and it's going to be a trip!).
> 
> ...



Thank you for the link, I've already read it though.  Not much useful information there, but it seems like a solid camera. Something of the high-end series, but with no modern additions (obviously).

I'd be happy to read more material on the subject!



Buckster said:


> Here's the site for camera manuals:
> 
> Zenith E free user manual, instruction manual
> 
> I make donations when I download from Butkus to help keep that resource for us all, and recommend a small donation from those who use it and can afford a buck or two to help out.



Here are my thoughts after reading that manual:

I wonder if the flash was included in all Zenith models, as it wasn't with the camera, however there was the flash holder right on it.

I'm also interested about the diaphragm (58mm lens), as as far as I can see through the lens, it adds some grain and darkens the image. I'm even more interested in the reason why there is the "diaphragm index ring," as as I can understand, all it does is it limits the allowed change of the grain/brightness.

I always thought that lenses were for zooming in, now I understand that they are to set the distance between the object you wanna take a picture of off and you. That was an interesting discovery. 

I have no idea what exactly is the "synchronization level." Well actually I think it's for the flash, but what if there's no flash? Should it be on X or M? As for the shutter speed, it defines how long the picture will be exposed to light, so I don't really get why somebody would want to expose it for longer periods of time. Nobody can hold a camera completely steady, so a shorter exposure to light would get a clearer picture.

Also, the other side of the camera looks a bit differently over here, I know that one knob controls the lighting levels (figured that out), but the other counter, I have no idea what's it for... That's the knob in this video at ~0:55, the knob inside: 



 (in case any of you actually do have Zenith-E camera and could help me with figuring that out).

So the manual says that the film can be loaded in normal lighting conditions... I remember, when we had a camera, mom always used to load it in the dark... It was one of these cheap plastic cameras though, 20 years ago or so, it's broken for 15 years or so now. Can I really just take the film and load it on a sunny day (not in direct sunlight) for example?
---
Regarding donations, as I mentioned earlier, our family is really poor. I'm even wondering if I will be able to afford film in fact, I'm about to go to a store and look up the prices.... So no donations from me, unfortunately. :/

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Separate thoughts: how should I go about cleaning the camera? Should I use (get) some special cleaning cloth or something? It's really dusty inside and outside...


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EDIT:

How can I dismount the lens for cleaning? I'm afraid to break it, as funny as this might sound. I've absolutely no experience with cameras, just lots of thought about photography and visual images when taking walks of what could potentially look good as a picture.

I've just found a disposable camera, my dad got it as a gift a few months ago. I wonder if I could take out the film and use it in this camera, and, once again, if I would have to be in a dark room to do that.


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## Mike_E (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm not able to give you the links just now but don't give up on it for lack of money.

For instance you can use C41 black and white film and develop it in coffee.  (partial description  http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...nford-church-again-time-rollei-retro-80s.html)

Most photographers are generally decent sorts and if there is a photography club near you chances are good that somebody will have the daylight tank needed that you can borrow.


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## Img (Jun 12, 2012)

Just in case that matters, I've access to a dark room, and my grandma's got red/blue light bulbs. Not sure if they are working as of yet though.

I've also looked for photography clubs in my city. I've found 3 clubs, but they all were of certain colleges, so only the students of those colleges can be in those clubs. According to their forums, they are quite strict on that policy and wouldn't let anyone else in...


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## manny212 (Jun 12, 2012)

Jeez brother , I'm sure I can clean a closet or two and find an old 5mp camera I could send you ! Really they won't let you participate ? Man that's rough.


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## Img (Jun 12, 2012)

manny212 said:


> Jeez brother , I'm sure I can clean a closet or two and find an old 5mp camera I could send you ! Really they won't let you participate ? Man that's rough.



Thank you. However I think that shipping would cost a lot - I live in Eastern Europe. I think it would cost at least $30, which I do not have.


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## McGhee (Jun 14, 2012)

Is there a way to put analog film negatives onto adobe photoshop and edit them as if they were digital puictures?


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## Buckster (Jun 14, 2012)

McGhee said:


> Is there a way to put analog film negatives onto adobe photoshop and edit them as if they were digital puictures?


Scan them with a negative scanner, or get them scanned for you.  Then you'll have a digital version to work with.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

I've spend a couple hours reading various articles and forum posts on that camera and on photography, and I've solved some of the question I asked earlier. I still have the following questions though:

I still don't know why there's the fixation ring for the diaphragm.

I've read about different kinds of film, but I still don't know what exposure times should be set for say ISO-200 and ISO-400 films, or any other film types.

I'm still wondering what's that other knob for, it has something called DIN and ASA. I believe they should be set according to the lighting, but I'm not sure how they should be set according to that...

------

I've looked into developing prices. I've found an ad of someone who can scan the negatives into the PC for ~$3, so I could call that guy and maybe be able to make some sort of arrangement. The hard part is to actually get the film now, as it costs ~$4.5 or more, depending on the type (400, 800, etc.).

I've called the photography clubs around, spoke with the administrators, it seems that they really do not accept anyone from outside their colleges/universities/schools.

Another downside of this camera I've is that there's a small hair or something like that inside the lens. I can't open it up, as it requires really small tools, which I don't have. Last time I checked, such tools cost around $20-40 (depends on how many and the quality).


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## compur (Jun 14, 2012)

Try this:
Basic Photo Tips: Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO - photo.net


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## Helen B (Jun 14, 2012)

Img said:


> I'm still wondering what's that other knob for, it has something called DIN and ASA. I believe they should be set according to the lighting, but I'm not sure how they should be set according to that...



They get set according to which film you have in the camera - DIN and ASA have both now become ISO speeds, and are usually referred to as ISO instead of DIN or ASA with current films. If it is a number like 25, 50, 80, 100, 125, 200, 250 etc it is likely to be an ASA-equivalent speed and if it is written with a degree symbol, like 21° it is likely to be a DIN-equivalent speed.



> I've looked into developing prices. I've found an ad of someone who can scan the negatives into the PC for ~$3, so I could call that guy and maybe be able to make some sort of arrangement. The hard part is to actually get the film now, as it costs ~$4.5 or more, depending on the type (400, 800, etc.).



What brands of film can you get? Are you looking for colour or B&W? If B&W you could look for Efke or Foma film, for example.



> I've called the photography clubs around, spoke with the administrators, it seems that they really do not accept anyone from outside their colleges/universities/schools.



That's a real shame. Maybe you could ask them to ask their members if they were willing to help you.



> Another downside of this camera I've is that there's a small hair or something like that inside the lens. I can't open it up, as it requires really small tools, which I don't have. Last time I checked, such tools cost around $20-40 (depends on how many and the quality).



Don't worry about that right now - it might not matter.

Have you worked out what the aperture ring is for yet? Let us know if there are any

Good luck,
Helen


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

compur said:


> Try this:
> Basic Photo Tips: Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO - photo.net


 
It was an interesting read, but I couldn't say that it was extra  useful. Most of that information was directed towards digital cameras,  which show the numbers calculated by a microchip on the screen. In this  situation, I have to use knowledge to determine those numbers in my head  instead.



Helen B said:


> They get set according to which film you have in  the camera - DIN and ASA have both now become ISO speeds, and are  usually referred to as ISO instead of DIN or ASA with current films. If  it is a number like 25, 50, 80, 100, 125, 200, 250 etc it is likely to  be an ASA-equivalent speed and if it is written with a degree symbol,  like 21° it is likely to be a DIN-equivalent speed.



Well I assume they don't get set automatically in a mechanical  camera, so I wonder how should I set them. There is a meter showing DIN  and ASA sides. And even if I should set it according to the film, the  film is 200/400/100/800, and the values vary from 16 to 500. I've also  noticed that there's the aperture ring values on the top of the inner  ring, so I assume that I have to set that (or the aperture ring...?)  according to either one of them.



Helen B said:


> What brands of film can you get? Are you looking  for colour or B&W? If B&W you could look for Efke or Foma film,  for example.



I really have no idea about different brands... Regarding B&W or  color, I'd prefer color film, as in case I'd get it scanned, I could  make it B&W, and if I'd take a B&W picture, I couldn't do the  opposite. Although, I don't mind B&W in case there's some reason to  use it, as I really enjoy the "old" effect on some photos. Here are my  choices from all the photography stores we have in this city (The others  cost $2-3 extra):

Fomapan 100/200/400 (B&W)
Agfaphoto 100 (B&W)
Color Plus 200
Agfaphoto Vista Plus 200
Agfaphoto Vista 100/200/400
Fujifilm Superia 200 (extra $1.5)



Helen B said:


> That's a real shame. Maybe you could ask them to  ask their members if they were willing to help you.



That's a good idea. I am going to do that tomorrow, as it's a late  evening at the moment. I will visit them (instead of calling) early in  the morning just to make sure that I get through.



Helen B said:


> Don't worry about that right now - it might not matter.



I think I should work out the more important issues first as well,  so let's stick to them.  However, I'm sure that it is on the lens due  to the way it moves on the objective. It's hard to explain how I came  upon this conclusion.



Helen B said:


> Have you worked out what the aperture ring is for yet? Let us know if there are any



With it you can get a dark and grainy but "full" image. In other  words, it allows you to take the picture of the objects close to you and  far away. For example, I can take a picture of my finger pointing at a  castle far away without any blurriness of neither objects. At least that's how it looks like when viewing through the lens, I haven't taken any pictures obviously.


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## Helen B (Jun 14, 2012)

Img said:


> Helen B said:
> 
> 
> > They get set according to which film you have in  the camera - DIN and ASA have both now become ISO speeds, and are  usually referred to as ISO instead of DIN or ASA with current films. If  it is a number like 25, 50, 80, 100, 125, 200, 250 etc it is likely to  be an ASA-equivalent speed and if it is written with a degree symbol,  like 21° it is likely to be a DIN-equivalent speed.
> ...



You set it to the speed of whichever film you have in the camera. You are restricted to settings between 16 and 500 ASA. If you are using 800 speed colour negative film you will be fine with a meter setting of 500.

The meter is not 'coupled' on a your camera. That means you have to turn the outer ring (the shutter speed ring) on the meter dial until the meter needle is zeroed (in the little circle). Then you read off the shutter speed / aperture combinations and set them on the camera/lens separately.

Your aperture isn't automatic either, as far as I remember (quite a few of my friends had Zenits while I had a Zorki). That means that you have to close down to the working aperture yourself before taking a picture, but you seem to have understood that already.

Good luck,
Helen


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

You set your camera according to what your light meter says. Though I wouldn't trust your light meter as it's a selenium one. Selenium light meters required no power source but 30 years on they are unreliable. So you should look for an external one. I use and recommend this *one*, it measures perfectly for both still and movie cameras. It's fairly cheap to get a full kit and can either use 3 AA's or one of *these*. As for color film I would recommend some Fujichrome, either Velvia or Provia. Of course it all depends on what kind of color you're looking for.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Helen B said:


> Well I assume they don't get set automatically in a mechanical  camera, so I wonder how should I set them. There is a meter showing DIN  and ASA sides. And even if I should set it according to the film, the  film is 200/400/100/800, and the values vary from 16 to 500. I've also  noticed that there's the aperture ring values on the top of the inner  ring, so I assume that I have to set that (or the aperture ring...?)  according to either one of them.
> 
> You set it to the speed of whichever film you have in the camera. You are restricted to settings between 16 and 500 ASA. If you are using 800 speed colour negative film you will be fine with a meter setting of 500.
> 
> ...



Okay, so let me rephrase everything, so I'm sure that I understand it correctly:

125 = 100
250 = 200
500 = 400

I have to set that according to the film I'm using.
I have to match the lighting settings.
I have to find the 125/250/500 setting on the outer ring and according to what it points to, set the aperture ring to that. The same goes for the exposure time dial.
In case I want to, I can manipulate the diaphragm ring to take a picture of two objects at different ranges. For example, if I set it to 5.6 according to the lighting settings, I can manipulate it in a range of 2 and 5.6.

@*Atari1977* I've mentioned all the cheapest films available. I don't know if I'll be able to afford them in the first place. $2-3 extra is a lot around here. Most of the days I eat $2-3, so the extra is one day's meal. Is there a huge difference in the quality of those films?


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Img said:


> @*Atari1977* I've mentioned all the cheapest films available. I don't know if I'll be able to afford them in the first place. $2-3 extra is a lot around here. Most of the days I eat $2-3, so the extra is one day's meal. Is there a huge difference in the quality of those films?


Well, they have a different look. Reversal film is much more saturated then negative film. But if you can't afford it, then you should just be able to make what you want in photoshop.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Atari1977 said:


> Img said:
> 
> 
> > Well, they have a different look. Reversal film is much more saturated then negative film. But if you can't afford it, then you should just be able to make what you want in photoshop.
> ...


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Img said:


> Atari1977 said:
> 
> 
> > Img said:
> ...


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Also this page might give you some info on your camera 
ACP - Zenit-E


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

And this is important if you haven't loaded film before.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

I have read about the light meter, however, as I mentioned a couple of  times, I have no other cameras. Except one disposable camera of which I  am aiming to steal the film. 27 shots, something-400 film. 400 is  supposed to be good for high-speed situations, so I've read.

I know that the meter's on 50-60% during the day, whether it's a little cloudy or sunny (haven't tested it on the sun yet). That is equivalent of f/5.6. I don't know if this information is of any use.

P.S.  I agree on the viewfinder problems mentioned in that post. Too bad mine  isn't an export, which, according to that post, is of lower quality.  Not sure if that's true or not, or if mine has any faults or not... I'm  also missing the flash. I was told that it is at an unknown location,  therefore I should forget about it.

What I've read there is that I  have to pick either a shutter speed or an aperture number. That's kinda  confusing... I guess I still don't fully get how to operate those  controls, and my last post about how I understand them is incorrect.

P.P.S. I've already found and bookmarked that video. It's very useful, I was wondering how to do it. Thank you. I will not load the film until I know everything there is though, I don't wanna ruin the film by taking pictures with the wrong settings. It's costly.


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

The description of the light meter is a little confusing but I think I get it. You have to select the shutter speed or aperture that you want and the calculator dial with tell you the other value in order to expose the scene properly. For instance, if I want a 2.8 aperture the dial will tell me the shutter speed needed to expose that properly. Though expect your camera to be overexposing scenes as the selenium lightmeter will have lost some sensitivity by now(not too much but maybe a stop or two).


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Atari1977 said:


> The description of the light meter is a little confusing but I think I get it. You have to select the shutter speed or aperture that you want and the calculator dial with tell you the other value in order to expose the scene properly. For instance, if I want a 2.8 aperture the dial will tell me the shutter speed needed to expose that properly. Though expect your camera to be overexposing scenes as the selenium lightmeter will have lost some sensitivity by now(not too much but maybe a stop or two).



I guess it will be trial and error with the few first films then. The camera wasn't being used much though, and most of the time it sat in the dark, which would be around 20 years in the dark and a year or probably less in use. I think it'll turn out alright.

Also I think I understand how to select the exposure level though, but the thing is, the fixation of the aperture doesn't make sense to me. At all. That's why I say that I have a problem understanding it.

To be more precise, nothing visually changes if I change the aperture, only if I turn the ring that controls the far away/nearby object ratio. The different aperture just limits the changes I can make to take a picture of the objects at different ranges, which is what doesn't make sense, and it's bugging me...


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Img said:


> Atari1977 said:
> 
> 
> > The description of the light meter is a little confusing but I think I get it. You have to select the shutter speed or aperture that you want and the calculator dial with tell you the other value in order to expose the scene properly. For instance, if I want a 2.8 aperture the dial will tell me the shutter speed needed to expose that properly. Though expect your camera to be overexposing scenes as the selenium lightmeter will have lost some sensitivity by now(not too much but maybe a stop or two).
> ...



What the aperture does isn't really apparent until the picture has been made.  It controls your depth of field, how much is in focus in your picture. Here's a little image to help you see the effect.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Atari1977 said:


> What the aperture does isn't really apparent until the picture has been made.  It controls your depth of field, how much is in focus in your picture. Here's a little image to help you see the effect.



The upper example is kinda odd... I didn't quite get it. As I understand, it should sharpen an image even if you are set the DoF so that the image looks sharp. But if you do that, the image already does look as sharp as it can get. Unless this is the "until the picture has been made" part and cannot be visible through the viewfinder.

The bottom example is actually the effect I was talking about, but it also adds grain and darkens the whole image. At least that's how I see it through the viewfinder - I wonder if that's how it'll look in the final picture too?


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Huh, my guess is your camera is closing the aperture instead of keeping it wide open until you press the shutter button like most other cameras. Look at your lens and move the aperture ring and see if you see the blades closing. The aperture blocks light from hitting the film so if it's closing then it's blocking light from getting to your viewfinder. You really can't see a depth of field increase through the viewfinder, but you will see it in the finished product.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Atari1977 said:


> Huh, my guess is your camera is closing the aperture instead of keeping it wide open until you press the shutter button like most other cameras. Look at your lens and move the aperture ring and see if you see the blades closing. The aperture blocks light from hitting the film so if it's closing then it's blocking light from getting to your viewfinder. You really can't see a depth of field increase through the viewfinder, but you will see it in the finished product.



I do indeed see the blades closing, looks pretty awesome in fact. So basically I have to set it according to the lighting level and then simply manipulate it between 2 and X (x being the variable, which is set according to the light meter. Usually it is 4 - 5.6 during the day). But why do I have to limit it? What would happen if I'd set it to say f/16 when the limitation is supposed to be f/5.6?

And if I can see only in the finished product, it's pretty much trial and error at first. Although, basically if I wanna take a detailed picture of a small object in high detail or a few objects at different ranges, I should use something closer to f/16, and when I wanna take a single object, I should use something closer to f/2. Although I'm still baffled about the limitation part, considering the requirement of f/16 for high detail, as mentioned above.


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## Atari1977 (Jun 14, 2012)

Like I said, higher apertures let less light through the lens, you have to have slower shutter speeds to compensate and expose a scene properly.


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## Img (Jun 14, 2012)

Atari1977 said:


> Like I said, higher apertures let less light through the lens, you have to have slower shutter speeds to compensate and expose a scene properly.



I see. That's a bit hard without a tripod. So about the shutter speeds now. For example, if I have ISO 200 film, originally I should set the shutter speed to 250, and choose the right limitation for the aperture. Then, decrease the shutter speed by one for say 2 aperture stops?


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## djacobox372 (Jun 16, 2012)

How does someone that is internet search illiterate find this forum?


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## Img (Jun 16, 2012)

djacobox372 said:


> How does someone that is internet search illiterate find this forum?



Most articles are for digital cameras with auto settings and all that fanciness. I interpret them from knowing absolutely nothing about photography. By doing that, I actually thought that shutter speed is dependent on the ISO format your the film. Basically this is what caused the confusion. Ironically, I realized that that was not a correct interpretation from reading an article about shaky picture, as I have shaky hands, as I'm not well fed most of the time. Now I do understand how it works, and I don't think that I'm "internet search illiterate." Most articles talk about various calculations on the screen, automatic settings, presents, etc., which is absolutely inapplicable for a camera with no microchip in it...


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