# Discouraged and seeking advice about business



## eric-holmes (Apr 23, 2010)

Lately I have decided to turn by hobby into a more productive venue. This came after many requests from people to shoot pictures of them or their kids. Now that I have decided to move forward in this, I cannot seem to book any sessions. This discourages me. What am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? Please check out my websites below and tell me what you think. There are prices listed on my facebook fan page. Are they too high? I typically charge $30 for a sitting fee and $10 for each extra person. 
Please give me some input and advice. Much appreciated.


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## Johnboy2978 (Apr 23, 2010)

Well I guess I'd first ask how long ago you just decided that you were going to try and make money from this?  Did you just throw up a web site w/ the "if you build it, they will come" attitude?  How much marketing are you doing?  As for your website, I'd nix that hodge-podge of stuff in the photography section.  I'd probably also cut most of those of Nick as well as most of those of Craig and Jessica and they don't seem very comfortable in front of the camera.  I'd also get a dedicated site instead of smug mug if trying to make money.  The website looks a little thrown together and haphazard.  

I guess if I were trying to make a go of it, I'd first go and try to build a portfolio.  You've tried to do that by just throwing together what you consider to be your best shots, but there's no cohesion and if someone's looking for portraits, they don't give a crap about that stuff in the other section and it just detracts.  You're trying to make something from nothing in other words.  So send out an invite to friends and family, church, where ever that you'll do some portraits either at cost or for little of nothing.  Another option is to put out fliers with a "chance" to win a free session + cost of prints.  In reality, everyone is a "winner" but you don't tell them that of course.  What you gain is some experience and something to put in your portfolio b/c now you have nothing.  Don't try to pad a resume that isn't there.  From little acorns comes mighty oaks.


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## eric-holmes (Apr 23, 2010)

Johnboy2978 said:


> Well I guess I'd first ask how long ago you just decided that you were going to try and make money from this?  Did you just throw up a web site w/ the "if you build it, they will come" attitude?  How much marketing are you doing?  As for your website, I'd nix that hodge-podge of stuff in the photography section.  I'd probably also cut most of those of Nick as well as most of those of Craig and Jessica and they don't seem very comfortable in front of the camera.  I'd also get a dedicated site instead of smug mug if trying to make money.  The website looks a little thrown together and haphazard.
> 
> I guess if I were trying to make a go of it, I'd first go and try to build a portfolio.  You've tried to do that by just throwing together what you consider to be your best shots, but there's no cohesion and if someone's looking for portraits, they don't give a crap about that stuff in the other section and it just detracts.  You're trying to make something from nothing in other words.  So send out an invite to friends and family, church, where ever that you'll do some portraits either at cost or for little of nothing.  Another option is to put out fliers with a "chance" to win a free session + cost of prints.  In reality, everyone is a "winner" but you don't tell them that of course.  What you gain is some experience and something to put in your portfolio b/c now you have nothing.  Don't try to pad a resume that isn't there.  From little acorns comes mighty oaks.



Thanks for taking the time to go over this with me. I am going to go through your post and try to answer the best I can. I know that the more information I can give you the better you can help me. I got my camera about a year ago and decided to make a go at it probably about 6 months ago. I have a full time job as a nurse so I am in no way trying to make this a full time job. But, I do enjoy doing it and would like to do it more often. I did the website, not have the attitude you mentioned, but more of a attitude of a website for marketing. I know you have to sell yourself.

I started doing the general photography and I added those at the time because it was all I had. I didn't know it was taking away from my site so badly. Nick, well he was my first one. Now that I go back and look I do see flaws in his pictures. Craig and Jessica, they too were one of my firsts. I took these for their Christmas pictures. I was a bitter cold winter day. Craig was also not too comfortable in front of the camera. 

I am going to PM you on a couple of questions...


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## Johnboy2978 (Apr 23, 2010)

I sent you a PM.


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## eric-holmes (Apr 23, 2010)

So you think I should totally nix the general photography gallery? You mentioned about getting away from smugmug, like use a different site? I could never make my own. I like the look of Bludomain flash templates.


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## McMommy (Apr 23, 2010)

I don't know how well this works, but I have seen many photographers promote their businesses by offering "special complimentary sittings" for a specific group of people. (Newborns, or kids, or families, etc.) Sometimes I've even seen them offer a free 8X10 print.

I think this would be a good idea to build up your portfolio. You want one that appeals to your clients, not just "I need photos of my kids" but also "and I want YOU to take them!" Examples of your first work might be sentimental to you, but it might not showcase your best work. You want to WOW people, ya know? 

Now all of that is said with no professional experience... but just as a consumer and amateur amateur photographer. Off to check out your website, and I'll see if I can give you any helpful feedback based off that.


Oh yeah, and last thing I did learn was that it's hard to raise your prices later, so make sure if you do what I suggested above, you let people know it's a special, one-time offer.


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## eric-holmes (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks, I am currently revamping my website so there will be some shuffling going on until I get it set.


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## McMommy (Apr 23, 2010)

Okay so... keep in mind I'm NOT a professional, but you're going down the path I hope to one day go down as well.

1) I'd suggest less "chatter" on your webpage. I think it's okay to leave the stuff about using photos to advertise via facebook or any other means to the contract they sign with you. It should be made clear that you own the pictures and they can order prints, but they're yours to use however and whenever you want. But that all can be in a contract. 

For your front of your webpage, you should really put up the best example of your favorite medium of photography. If it's kids, have a gorgeous picture of a kid up, if it's weddings, do that...etc. While the eyeball is a cool picture, I just don't think it screams "CLICK ON ME AND HIRE ME TO BE YOUR PHOTOGRAPHER!"  Think sexy website... ha ha. You want it to say "You want me and you know it...grr baby"

(Had a margarita with dinner so forgive my silliness)

2. Can I suggest you put your galleries closer to the top of your site? People are lazy... they want what they want, and they don't want to mess around, usually. That way, if someone is looking for something specific, they can go straight to it.

3. That kid in the vest is really cute. You should definitely find a way to appeal to a select number of test clients (10 maybe?) so you can practice working with people, expand your portfolio with ever-improving work, and get your name out hopefully by these 10 people recommending you to their friends.


Okay, hope that is helpful in some way! Happy weekend!


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## ghpham (Apr 24, 2010)

I'm not a pro photographer, so take this with a grain of salt.  Websites are a dime a dozen.  No matter how well you make your site, it's not going to gain you business without you being pro active.  That means you will need to network around your local area.  For example, go to local kids sport venues and start taking some pictures.  Get to know the parents and perhaps show them the photo's.  If they like it, perhaps you can try to sell the prints for cheap...OR...give it to them for free and pass out your business card.  If you are good...and lucky perhaps one in ten will call you up for a photo session.  You need to realize that this will be a "business" and as with all businesses, it's not going to be all rosy.  The key to survival is perseverance.

Off topic, but my friend (and now my boss), is a partner in his business for 6 years now.  The first year he was in business, he DIDN'T draw ANY income at all.  You cannot have just started and already be discouraged.  Get out there and network!


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## Overread (Apr 24, 2010)

You might find these critique videos of interest: zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias  Critique

They are all quite long and the advice flits from website building to industry ideas through to photo critique - but the overall info is very good and you can pickup a lot of tips as well as advice on marketing yourself. Plus they are all pretty entertaining too!


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## KmH (Apr 24, 2010)

eric-holmes said:


> Lately I have decided to turn by hobby into a more productive venue. This came after many requests from people to shoot pictures of them or their kids. Now that I have decided to move forward in this, I cannot seem to book any sessions. What part of your marketing plan isn't working? This discourages me. What am I doing wrong? It sounds like you don't have a business plan. What am I doing right? Please check out my websites below and tell me what you think. There are prices listed on my facebook fan page. Why aren't they listed on your website? Use Facebook to drive prospective clients to your web site, not the other way around. Facebook fan pages are not very effective for marketing, but the regular facebook pages can be. *Be very mindful of Facebook's TOS about images.* Are they too high? No, they are to low. I typically charge $30 for a sitting fee and $10 for each extra person.
> Please give me some input and advice. Much appreciated.


 
www.sba.com The US Small Business Administration.

www.score.org The Service Core of Retired Executives.

Both give free, expert business advice and will help you write a realistic business plan.

There are also free business/marketing/salesmanship resources at the public library.

I would suggest generating a flyer offering a discounted sitting fee and print pricing for portfolio building. *Don't shoot for free! It is far easier to discount prices than it is to raise them.*

Something like:

"*I have decided I want to add some new images to my portfolio. *
*For a limited time eric-holmes photography will be offering a 'portfolio building' discount on all sessions, prints, and other products. This is important and exciting enough to me that I will give a 40% discount on all session fees and other products bought during this limited time offer.*

*While this discount is in effect available session times will fill up fast so schedule yours today*."

Raise your session fee to $100 ($10 for each person over 4), double your print prices, then put out the flyer. You get to decide how long your 'limited time offer' runs for but it does have to be for a limited time (say up to 4-6 months).

When you do a session show the full price on the invoice and then subtract the discount so they know that the next time it will cost them twice as much. Get 50% of the session fee at the time they book, the other half at the beginning of the session.

You have a good contract, model release, and all the other required business paperwork, right?

You need *local* word-of-mouth (WOM) advertising and that means satisfied *paying* clients. WOM about the free pictures they got 

Do you know how to write and send a new release to your local newspaper's business section editor?

You could send a press release announcing your redesigned web site and restructuring of your business model, or some other change in your business, like the completion of a seminar or class.  Promote yourself from photographer to principal photographer and send in a press release.

Marketing and selling is all about the sizzle, not the steak.

Your next goal should be to identify what market level you want to target.


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## eric-holmes (Apr 25, 2010)

Thank you for everyones input and critiques. It looks like I have a lot of work to do. 



KmH said:


> Raise your session fee to $100 ($10 for each person over 4), double your print prices, then put out the flyer. You get to decide how long your 'limited time offer' runs for but it does have to be for a limited time (say up to 4-6 months).



So are you saying that I should just raise my prices for the half off thing or raise them to that in general? Doubling the print prices seems like a lot.


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## KmH (Apr 25, 2010)

eric-holmes said:


> Thank you for everyones input and critiques. It looks like I have a lot of work to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Raise them to that in general.

Just because someone pays you more for a print than what you paid the lab for it, doesn't mean you are actually making any money. Your print pricing also has to cover your non-reimbused business expenses which includes your salary and contributions to your retirement fund. Your salary is not profit, it is a business expense.

Another term for your non-reimbursed business expenses is Cost-Of-Doing-Business or CODB.

A online CODB calculator: NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator

Do you know what it costs you to do business?

Total Revenue - CODB - COGS (Cost-of-goods-sold) = profit

I sure hope you have business liability insurance! You could loose it all if someone were to get hurt during a shoot.

You have the other essential business paperwork, right? A business license, if required? A good contract with a model release clause, reshoot policy, and indemnity clause? Invoices?

Do you collect applicable Arkansas sale taxes for the DFA?


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## eric-holmes (Apr 25, 2010)

KmH, thanks so much for all your indepth replies. I understand about getting a contract or something along those lines. But, I think I used the wrong word when I said business. I think I may have meant, "hobby where I make extra money" lol. It neve crossed my mind about having to deal with getting a license or taxes. That is all almost overwhelming.


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## jubb (Apr 25, 2010)

Read as much of the negative material that's out there as you can.  You gotta be realistic about the challenges and frustration you'll face trying to make it as a photographer.  Start coming up with solutions to how you will overcome all these challenges.  You can do it, but don't go in thinking it will be easy.


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## Park (Apr 25, 2010)

eric-holmes said:


> KmH, thanks so much for all your indepth replies. I understand about getting a contract or something along those lines. But, I think I used the wrong word when I said business. I think I may have meant, "hobby where I make extra money" lol. It neve crossed my mind about having to deal with getting a license or taxes. That is all almost overwhelming.



Well here's the chance to make it a hobby again. Forget about making extra money and turn it back into fun. Shoot for fun and you are going to avoid all the time and effort it will take to make even minor income. That income when properly accounted for, if a profit at all, will probably mean you shot for pennies not dollars.

Photography is a wonderful hobby but a really lousy business these days. You have a full time job. Do you really need to make your hobby into another job?


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## KmH (Apr 26, 2010)

eric-holmes said:


> KmH, thanks so much for all your indepth replies. I understand about getting a contract or something along those lines. But, I think I used the wrong word when I said business. I think I may have meant, "hobby where I make extra money" lol. It neve crossed my mind about having to deal with getting a license or taxes. That is all almost overwhelming.


 
Start here: Business Online Services


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## McMommy (Apr 26, 2010)

Park said:


> eric-holmes said:
> 
> 
> > KmH, thanks so much for all your indepth replies. I understand about getting a contract or something along those lines. But, I think I used the wrong word when I said business. I think I may have meant, "hobby where I make extra money" lol. It neve crossed my mind about having to deal with getting a license or taxes. That is all almost overwhelming.
> ...




No such thing as too much money, and I think if you can find value in the form of money from something you enjoy very much, you should go for it. Price it fairly, according to your skills and expenses, and people who also see the value of your work will pay for it.

I really don't think it's fair to imply that you must go big or go home in this industry. In my case, I'm a stay at home mom, and we'd LOVE to have extra income. This hobby makes it a possibility down the road when I'm confident and much better practiced. No reason he can't do it too, for whatever his reasons are! 


That all said, you should make sure you read up on the laws and do it legally. You really don't want a hobby to become a hassle if you find yourself in trouble with the IRS or other photographers in your area you may be undercutting, when they are doing everything by the book.


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## bennielou (Apr 28, 2010)

Ok, I ignored all the other responses, not because they weren't valid, but because I didn't want to be side tracked.

First of all, you need to figure out what your MAIN photography is.  What do you want to do, and what are you best at.  What is your target market?  Delete the rest.  Don't junk up your site with all things that don't pertain to business.

If you want to do portraits, and you believe in your work, don't charge less than $50 bucks as a beginner.  People need to value your work.


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## Derrel (Apr 28, 2010)

I looked at both your web site and your Facebook web site,and I think you need to improve your posing of couples. Your man + wife poses are not very refined, with the head heights being a bit off,and the bottoms of the frames cropping people off a bit unacceptably. On that cute little boy in the vest, photographed in the woods, on the Facebook web site, the photos look slightly softy, and lacking in contrast. Overall, the work you're offering seems to be close to traditional portraiture, but the portfolio shots lack that last little bit of professional 'edge'. If you have only been into this for a year, I think it's unrealistic to think that it will be easy to book paid sessions with the kind of work you are showing in the genre you are showing,and I think you'd benefit by getting some additional training in posing and portraiture work and some mentoring to help elevate your technical skills. In today's market, there is a huge amount of competition,and some very talented and much more-experienced shooters and business people with whom you are competing.


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## eric-holmes (Apr 28, 2010)

bennielou said:


> Ok, I ignored all the other responses, not because they weren't valid, but because I didn't want to be side tracked.
> 
> First of all, you need to figure out what your MAIN photography is.  What do you want to do, and what are you best at.  What is your target market?  Delete the rest.  Don't junk up your site with all things that don't pertain to business.
> 
> If you want to do portraits, and you believe in your work, don't charge less than $50 bucks as a beginner.  People need to value your work.



Well, I started out just doing general photography things. Like artwork except with a camera. Then I thought I wanted to do some type of fashion photography. NO market for that here in small town, Arkansas. So now I am trying to move myself into a more "mom friendly" business for kids, seniors and families. 



Derrel said:


> I looked at both your web site and your Facebook web site,and I think you need to improve your posing of couples. Your man + wife poses are not very refined, with the head heights being a bit off,and the bottoms of the frames cropping people off a bit unacceptably. On that cute little boy in the vest, photographed in the woods, on the Facebook web site, the photos look slightly softy, and lacking in contrast. Overall, the work you're offering seems to be close to traditional portraiture, but the portfolio shots lack that last little bit of professional 'edge'. If you have only been into this for a year, I think it's unrealistic to think that it will be easy to book paid sessions with the kind of work you are showing in the genre you are showing,and I think you'd benefit by getting some additional training in posing and portraiture work and some mentoring to help elevate your technical skills. In today's market, there is a huge amount of competition,and some very talented and much more-experienced shooters and business people with whom you are competing.



Thanks Derrel. I need to go through and delete a lot of my older pictures so they don't bring down the rest. Would you look at the picture you were talking about on my real website and tell me if you still see what you are talking about? http://www.ericholmesphotography.com/Portraits/Children/11942499_LAHrj#824929170_6GgDs-A-LB


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## ghpham (Apr 29, 2010)

I took a quick look the your new page and I think posing still need some work.  For example, in the Craig and Jessica photo shoot, how come Craig is not more intimate with Jessica? his arms are pretty much limp (except the last photo, but then Craig's left hand is in his pocket).


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## tsaraleksi (Apr 29, 2010)

I think you're not doing a great job utilizing your smugmug page's full potential. It is more than possible to put together a smug page that looks clean and fairly professional. 

I'll throw up my site as an example -- I'm decidedly semi-pro, a college student who is not pursuing photography past graduation-- so ignore my gallery organization  

Alex Turco Photography 

Also, I'm not sure what level of smugmug user you are, but if you want to sell prints, I'd strongly advise upgrading to their pro level if you're not there already.


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## Newcastle Shooter (Apr 29, 2010)

Hey Eric,

The good thing you have going for you is your willingness to learn and progress.

If you havent already figured it out - its tough! 

I have went through all this when i started out and sometimes even forums really discouraged me too. It's a highly competitive market and there are many things you NEED to do to increase your chances of business. The ones I found were:

- have a pro looking website. I like your site but smugmug sites tend to have cracks in them allowing the customer to see through them and question it. I once had a smugmug site and never found a layout I was comfortable with. Screens are wide and so are your eyes - smugmug always seems to scrap the left and right space and require alot of scrolling up and down. Doesnt marry up well for me.

-a continuation of the first point. Make it easy for people. Somebody said "people are lazy" - blunt but true. Having to actively scroll and search for galleries is never good. 

-Upfront and clear pricing. I couldnt find your prices on your main site - this is a must.

-Marketing and SEO. How do people find your site? After looking on your site you dont mention where you are based. In the past 6 months I have been studying SEO and have now recently got google page 1 position 1 for event photography newcastle and position 2 for wedding photography newcastle - its taken me a good few months but cost me nothing and its now paying dividends with daily enquiries. Your site needs to be visable on relevent searches such as family photography boston or portrait photography miami - or whatever suits. This doesnt happen overnight but its all part and parcel of sarting and growing a business. 

-Your photography. You have a good starting point in my opinion and the more you do the better it should get. I learn more and feel I improve with every shoot i do. 

Don't be too discouraged - you're not doing much wrong, you're just not doing everything you can. I'm not an expert either - just sharing my experiences as I have went through all the same stuff. If you decide to invest more time and effort (and money!) into your venture i would reconsider your site though. Then build up from there. 

Hope that helps - and all the very best of luck to you!

Paul.

Could I also add - Alex Turco's smugmug is a good plain clean example site.


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## tsaraleksi (Apr 29, 2010)

Paul I *think* your comment is positive? I'll take it that way anyway  

Eric, one more thing to keep in mind is that you're in a small town, trying to get into business during some fairly rough economic times. Chances are that the average person to whom you are marketing your photography is not exactly flush with extra money at the moment and is disinclined to shell out for stuff like family portraits. Just something to keep in mind.


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## Newcastle Shooter (Apr 29, 2010)

Alex - you can certainly take it as positive  I like your site - and your photos too.


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## manaheim (Apr 29, 2010)

This is probably going to sound a little bizarre, but I'd bet you money that _*one*_ of your biggest problems is that you are WAY too cheap.

I won't go into it in too much detail because everyone's probably going to jump all over me for saying it, but mark my words... charge more and you'll probably do a lot better.


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## tsaraleksi (Apr 29, 2010)

manaheim said:


> This is probably going to sound a little bizarre, but I'd bet you money that _*one*_ of your biggest problems is that you are WAY too cheap.
> 
> I won't go into it in too much detail because everyone's probably going to jump all over me for saying it, but mark my words... charge more and you'll probably do a lot better.



When people don't know how to judge which product is better, they assume that the more expensive product is the better one


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## Jim Gratiot (May 1, 2010)

> I won't go into it in too much detail because everyone's probably going to jump all over me for saying it, but mark my words... charge more and you'll probably do a lot better.


Nope, this is right on... too many photographers are hesitant to charge what they're worth.  And the more you charge, the more perceived value you will have in the marketplace... and the more success you will ultimately have.


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## jt69 (May 12, 2010)

Here are my two cents... Ramp up on your technique... practice practice and practice... All your photos are what I call flat lighting.. They look like you put the camera in Auto and fire away. So , portraits come flat. Get your flash off camera,this will help. On the other note!. Photography business is about relationships... Is not only how good you are but how good you can relate with others.. Your friends are the best marketing tool you can have right now and free... Use them. 

I think the pricing goes in hand with the quality of work you are delivering. Try to find out what is fair pricing on your town and adjust accordingly. You don't want to advertise that you are a newbie with your pricing motto.

My 2cents..


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## DanEitreim (Jun 5, 2010)

Don't rely too heavily on your website selling people on using your services. Go offline and more analogue. Try giving out some gift certificates for a free session or have someone host a photo party in their home. This should get you started.


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## eric-holmes (Jun 14, 2010)

Ok, I know this is an old thread but I have been getting some clientele lately and I have revamped my site. For those who had seen it earlier, please compare my recent pictures and website. Thanks

eric holmes photography- powered by SmugMug


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## Aayria (Jun 15, 2010)

I checked out your revamped site, after having viewed it back when this thread started.  I have to say, hands down, it is a HUGE improvement! It's simple, clean, and tells somebody looking for a photographer exactly what they want to know without having to dig around for it.  I also really enjoyed the portraits you chose for your portfolio- especially the little girl with the giraffe/saffari dress, DARLING! 

   One thing, though, I didn't see prices listed on your website.  I just wondered what your reason was for taking them down, and if you feel it has helped or hindered your buisiness.


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## eric-holmes (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks! 

I never had my prices listed. I am still in the process of nailing down prices. I am trying to compare with my local photogs. I would like to be somewhere in the middle, just under the professionals enough to be enticing and just high enough to be held respectable. I haven't found that median yet.


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## pbelarge (Jun 15, 2010)

Eric
I was looking at some of your outdoor portraits.
Do you use fillflash or other lighting to help reduce/eliminate shadows?


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## eric-holmes (Jun 15, 2010)

All of those picture had the use of a reflector. On Macys pictures I used a fill flash.


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## KmH (Jun 15, 2010)

Did you see these?

The first 2 in this thread look like full on bare flash at mid-day with the flash at full power and up high.

The flash was moved much lower for #3 and #4.

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/people-photography/206873-glamour-down-farm-well-sorta.html


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## eric-holmes (Jun 15, 2010)

I could really get into that look. I have got to learn to get that flash out and not be afraid to use it! The use of that flash make this pictures have an almost surreal look to them. Or maybe not surreal but high fashion.


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## KmH (Jun 15, 2010)

The street term is 'pop'. The technical term is separation of the subject from the background because, "light advances and dark recedes". 

Notice that bare flash can work in direct sunlight.

The sooner you start using flash, the sooner it will be able to charge more _because_ you use flash.

I have said it before. Using flash will put you a step above a lot of your competition. It will create buzz among your clients because it feels more like a pro shoot, which drives WOM advertising, which means more sessions and the momentum to drive price increases.

Find some aspiring models to do some TFCD or TFP with for practice. Don't forget model releases and contracts.


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## eric-holmes (Jun 15, 2010)

That makes me not even want to get an umbrella or softbox. I really like that style. How far away would you guesstimate that the flash was from the subject?


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