# staunch film advocate considering digital...



## mallard (Jul 22, 2008)

I started out with film and wont get into an argument of pros and cons of film vs. digital. I do however have a couple digital point and shoots which I like (a canon and an olympus) but I am thinking about getting into DSLR just to give me a bit more control.

One of the things I do like though is movements on a 4X5 which I wont be able to get in a digital unless someone knows of a digital field camera (or any view camera) that is affordable to normal humans.

To that end I will still continue on with getting back into sheet film and then scanning it. (any recommendations of a scanner which can handle 35mm, 120 and 4x5?)

One of the things that made me reconsider digital is a couple articles I saw on HDRI. Are there any digital SLRs which can incorporate this at the moment of exposure or is this always done with bracketed exposures (can any DSLR instantaneously bracket? so as to get an HDRI of a dynamic scene like action, animals or other movement).

I also like nighttime photography and I remember my instructor saying when they have a digital camera that can take a high resolution image in the types of low light environments he shoots then he would gladly toss his film camera aside. Can digital get an exposure now that normally require a long exposure on film? (im talking like 5 minutes and up)

So when looking at digitals, I thought about reusing my pentax lenses. Does pentax make a decent digital camera? It would be nice to have the same covering as a 35mm film frame but from what I saw only nikon makes a 24X36mm CCD. The local camera store also said Pentax was having financial issues so they really werent stocking up on their cameras. If I cant find a digital field camera with movements, at least I would like some smooth manual focusing.

so....has anyone else had some of the same questions/issues?


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## icassell (Jul 22, 2008)

How bout this?   

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-TS-E-24...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1216762745&sr=8-1


or


http://www.amazon.com/Canon-TS-E-45...2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1216762745&sr=8-2


or


http://www.amazon.com/Canon-TS-E-90...3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1216762745&sr=8-3

As "L" glass goes, these aren't outrageously expensive.  I'd love to have one to play with sometime.


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## Big Mike (Jul 22, 2008)

> One of the things I do like though is movements on a 4X5 which I wont be able to get in a digital unless someone knows of a digital field camera (or any view camera) that is affordable to normal humans.


Maybe not the same thing, but you can get tilt/shift lenses to fit Canon & Nikon SLR cameras.  Probably Pentax and others as well.



> One of the things that made me reconsider digital is a couple articles I saw on HDRI. Are there any digital SLRs which can incorporate this at the moment of exposure or is this always done with bracketed exposures (can any DSLR instantaneously bracket? so as to get an HDRI of a dynamic scene like action, animals or other movement).


Many will have AEB (auto exposure bracketing)...so they can fire off three consecutive shots at different exposures.  Also, you can use a single image and process it in different ways, then combine the resulting files in the same way you could combine multiple images.  Another option is to just edit specific parts of the image, in order to increase the tonal range.



> I also like nighttime photography and I remember my instructor saying when they have a digital camera that can take a high resolution image in the types of low light environments he shoots then he would gladly toss his film camera aside. Can digital get an exposure now that normally require a long exposure on film? (im talking like 5 minutes and up)


People have been using DSLR cameras for long (night) exposures with great results.  There may be problems like 'hot' pixels or battery drainage...but I'd think that 5 minutes is easily doable.



> So when looking at digitals, I thought about reusing my pentax lenses. Does pentax make a decent digital camera? It would be nice to have the same covering as a 35mm film frame but from what I saw only nikon makes a 24X36mm CCD. The local camera store also said Pentax was having financial issues so they really werent stocking up on their cameras. If I cant find a digital field camera with movements, at least I would like some smooth manual focusing.


In this format of camera, Canon has had 'full frame' sensors for several years now.  Nikon recently entered the game (with Sony made sensors) and Sony may put a large sensor into one of their cameras soon.  As far as I know, Pentax doesn't have a 'full frame' DSLR yet.  
The cameras with smaller 'crop' sensors aren't really that bad...but  you do have to alter what you think of focal lengths and their field of view.  
Pentax does have some good models, so if you have the lenses, that would probably be a good option for you.


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## mallard (Jul 22, 2008)

icassell said:


> How bout this?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Canon-TS-E-24...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1216762745&sr=8-1
> 
> ...



thanks.....i didnt think of that (prolly because like the difference between my crown graphic and my tachihara, one has full movements, the other front only)

I saw nikon makes a similar lens.....that puts the digital discussion in that realm of nikon vs. canon. (neither of which ive owned....just pentax 35mm and yashicamat and large formats)

perhaps I should be looking at scanner resolutions? I did read a good article about how digital will all but replace small film formats. is it ok if i post it along with a link to originating site?


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## icassell (Jul 22, 2008)

Found this, too...

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/reviews/Canon-TS-E-24mm-f-3.5-L-Tilt-Shift-Lens-Review.aspx

damn ... started looking at the images on this page and started wondering how to scratch up the money for one of these ... boy does that look cool!


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## mallard (Jul 22, 2008)

after looking at those I must admit that a canon digital with a shift lens sort of acts like a view camera (a lil bit of control and viewing the results live on an LCD screen instead of a ground glass)

does cameras like the canon do HDRI upon exposure or is that always done with add on software?


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## reg (Jul 22, 2008)

Always done with addon software.

Always.


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## mallard (Jul 22, 2008)

reg said:


> Always done with addon software.
> 
> Always.



ok thanks. what about histograms? do they preview or are they always just information about the final image taken?


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## reg (Jul 22, 2008)

You can check the histogram *right *after you took the photo but not before - the light meter is what you're gonna use before you take it.

Although if it's a picture you can take again then you can check the histogram to get the perfect exposure for the next try.


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## icassell (Jul 22, 2008)

mallard said:


> ok thanks. what about histograms? do they preview or are they always just information about the final image taken?




Since you're not paying for film, test shots are free!


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## Mitica100 (Jul 23, 2008)

mallard said:


> To that end I will still continue on with getting back into sheet film and then scanning it. (any recommendations of a scanner which can handle 35mm, 120 and 4x5?)


 
I also shoot only film (mainly MF and LF) and scan my negs on an Epson Perfection 4990, which can scan from 35mm up to 8x10. It's a flat bed scanner but for LF scanning works really well.


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## Big Mike (Jul 23, 2008)

The newest DSLR cameras do have a live view option and I believe that some of them offer a live view histogram as well.  Although, it's not hard to just shoot, check histogram, make adjustments then shoot again.


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## mallard (Jul 23, 2008)

well, after taking a look at the issues involved, and what type of photography i like best (architectural and landscape) i think those shift lenses would work just fine. If they end up not having enough movements I wouldnt have much of a problem selling them to get large format stuff and a scanner.

however, since I have a few pentax bodies and lenses, it would be best to try to find a pentax shift lens and go with pentax digital....but from what I see I feel like just going with Canon would be a choice that would give me a lot more options (and a much emptier bank)

i never really paid attention to Canon....I assume their digital equipment is first class and for what I do would suffice more so than a medium format back (which i guess is more used in fashion and product photography)


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## icassell (Jul 24, 2008)

mallard said:


> well, after taking a look at the issues involved, and what type of photography i like best (architectural and landscape) i think those shift lenses would work just fine. If they end up not having enough movements I wouldnt have much of a problem selling them to get large format stuff and a scanner.
> 
> however, since I have a few pentax bodies and lenses, it would be best to try to find a pentax shift lens and go with pentax digital....but from what I see I feel like just going with Canon would be a choice that would give me a lot more options (and a much emptier bank)
> 
> i never really paid attention to Canon....I assume their digital equipment is first class and for what I do would suffice more so than a medium format back (which i guess is more used in fashion and product photography)



I wonder if you can rent a camera/tilt-shift combo before dropping all that cash into it.


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## Mitica100 (Jul 24, 2008)

Have you thought of the Russian shift lenses?

http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=71


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## icassell (Jul 24, 2008)

Mitica100 said:


> Have you thought of the Russian shift lenses?
> 
> http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=71




Hey, Dimitri, do you have any experience with these?  The price is certainly alot cheaper than the Canon.


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## mallard (Jul 24, 2008)

Mitica100 said:


> Have you thought of the Russian shift lenses?
> 
> http://kievcamera.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=71



Wow! thanks for the link....that may have just enabled me to taste digital via a lower end pentax instead of plunking down the cash on a canon lens


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## ksmattfish (Jul 29, 2008)

mallard said:


> One of the things I do like though is movements on a 4X5 which I wont be able to get in a digital unless someone knows of a digital field camera (or any view camera) that is affordable to normal humans.



You can get adapters that allow DSLR bodies to be attached to the backs of modern view cameras.  This guy made his own

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/canon-view-camera.html



mallard said:


> Can digital get an exposure now that normally require a long exposure on film? (im talking like 5 minutes and up)



Consider that astronomers long ago abandoned film for digital.  All of their photos require long exposure and very fine, clean detail.

http://www.astropix.com/GADC/GADC.HTM

I experience two main problems with long exposure digital.  One:  the battery eventually runs down.  There are vert grips and battery packs that may offer power longer, or the DSLR can be plugged in.  I guess it depends on where you are shooting.  Two:  noise from heat build up at the sensor.  Astronomers keep their digital cameras cool.  

I'm using Canon DSLRs, and I don't notice significant problems with noise or the battery running down, but my longest exposures are 15 to 20 minutes.  I've held on to a few fully mechanical, film cameras just in case I need to do an all night exposure. 

One advantage of digital over film for long, low light exposures is that there's no reciprocity failure.  Not a big deal for 1 to 5 min exposures, but once you go over 5 min it adds up quick.  High ISO digital is significantly cleaner than film, allowing for similar image quality at a higher ISO.  When calculating exposure times for some ISO 100 films considering reciprocity failure compared to ISO 400 digital and no reciprocity failure the exposure that requires an hour with film only needs about 15 min with digital.


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## Bifurcator (Jul 30, 2008)

mallard said:


> One of the things that made me reconsider digital is a couple articles I saw on HDRI. Are there any digital SLRs which can incorporate this at the moment of exposure or is this always done with bracketed exposures (can any DSLR instantaneously bracket? so as to get an HDRI of a dynamic scene like action, animals or other movement).



Fuji is doing it with some degree of success. I hear others may be following - like Sony and Casio (though Casio hasn't yet produced a dSLR that I know of).

From what i read it's for in-camera JPEG processing. Blown out areas are used as a sort of feathered luma-key and masked out to a lower range of tones. It seems to work OK on the samples I saw in the shop - and when I tried it out a bit.



> To that end I will still continue on with getting back into sheet film and then scanning it. (any recommendations of a scanner which can handle 35mm, 120 and 4x5?)



Reviewers who actually test the products seem to favor the Canon's 1st and Epson's second.

Canon CanoScan 8600F

Epson Perfection V750-M Pro
Epson Perfection V500 Photo

HP Scanjet G4050 Photo Scanner

Microtek ArtixScan M1 Pro
Microtek Scanmaker 9800XL HDR 

These are all models that excel at film scanning - all do 35 & 120, & 4x5 or larger. All are 48 bit external capable and the HP listed there is 96 bit internal with the best color fidelity of the bunch.


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