# Q: Post budget wedding blues



## Johnboy2978 (May 18, 2007)

I recently shot a wedding for a couple and they just got the images back.  Here's a link to some of the pics http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81100
I have communicated w/ the bride only though email thus far, and it's hard to get a good read w/o hearing the voice, but she doesn't sound happy.  The deal was, she hired a "pro" 6 months in advance, I have no idea what they were charging.  Anyway, 2 weeks before the wedding, they tried to contact the pro and discovered she was either in jail or moved w/o notice.  At any rate, they had no photog.  A co-worker knew I was doing this kind of thing, gave her my name and we met.  I gave her a price of $600 which is at least 1/2 what a pro in my area would charge.  She wanted prints and I told her I would give them #24 8x10 for that price, or the equivalent. The equivalent would be 2 5x7 or 4 4x6 for each 8x10, and she opted for all 4x6 (#96).  I immediately thought, she is looking for a lot of bang for the buck, and probably expects a $5000 result for a fraction of the cost.  

I met her at the salon at 9:00 and took 2 hours worth of shots of her, flower girl, and jr bridesmaid.  I took shots pre-ceremony of the groom and his side of family.  She was late coming back from the salon and guests arrived early for the wedding so her shots were delayed until after the ceremony.   In 30 minutes, we shot all of the B/G formals as well as her family shots.  I then took candids of the reception.   There was no dancing and the traditional garter/bouquet throw consisted of her/him standing at the door and throwing the items out the door to the guests standing in the rain.  The reception was primarily a bunch of hungry guests sitting at tightly crammed tables foraging for food, so there wasn't much opportunity for any meaningful candids.  

I was there from 9-4:30 and ended up w/ about 450 shots.  I edited what I felt to be the best 125 shots for her to choose from for her 96 4x6.  She was upset that I forgot one of the formal shots of her and mom and that I didn't include many candid shots from the reception. She also seemed to feel that I should have given them every conceivable shot from the ceremony instead of just the traditional things. I admit that I did forget the mom/bride shot b/c it was so rushed, but I did manage to create this after she pointed it out. 







She now wants to see "every" shot taken to choose the 96 from and I don't really want to spend a month processing all of that just for her to decide I was right in the ones I selected to start with.  What do you all do in this kind of situation?   

Sorry for the long post, but comments/opinions are appreciated
Thanks!


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## ksmattfish (May 18, 2007)

The business of wedding photography has a lot more to do with customer service than photography.  If you want to keep doing weddings in the area you do what you can to make this bride happy, and next time make sure everyone is on the same page before the wedding.  Any potential controversy should be discussed thoroughly, and probably written in to the contract.  I've never had a bride ask to see all the photos I took at her wedding, because long before the wedding I explain that I won't be doing that, and that they are going to have to live with my editing judgement.


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## Johnboy2978 (May 18, 2007)

Believe me, that will be the first thing I state the next time.  Photography is a hobby, albeit a growing one, and I have another job that pays the mortgage.  Photography right now is only paying for new toys.  In the future, it will be "I will edit and deliver 100 shots you can pick from.  Period".  Am I out of line thinking this is unreasonable for them to get upset over 1 missed shot, and not wanting to edit all the second rate shots?  I almost feel like she wanted a flip book that she could bound together since they didn't have a videographer as well.

Does that pic I posted look passable?


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## mysteryscribe (May 18, 2007)

It has been my experience with film, that they mostly want to see if they look better in a different shot. I would just chop them down to low res and send her a cd. Explain that they are not finished product but simply proof for her to chose the poses from.

The image you posted looks fine to me.  It has bounce light shadows but that's to be expected these days.


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## elsaspet (May 18, 2007)

First of all, you should see yourself as a professional. You have booked yourself for a nowhere job, and now you need to do it. No excuses. You will make ALL of us look bad.
Secondly, why are you charging chump change? Do you think your work is worth nothing? Yeah, if you leave it like it is, it is. Better your work via Photoshop and see your potential.
You aren't there yet.
If you want to make a lot of money, you need to make your photos valuable. You can't do that letting down the client. it costs you next to zero to make one client happy. Do it.
I bust my ass doing that month in and month out.  But look where I am now.
Non or us are all be all end all.  They can replace you in a nanosecond.  Do what you can to hang in.


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## mysteryscribe (May 18, 2007)

And cindy what happens to the bride who really can't afford you.  Does she just not have wedding pictures at all.


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## Johnboy2978 (May 18, 2007)

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I am a little confused here...



elsaspet said:


> You have booked yourself for a nowhere job, and now you need to do it. No excuses. You will make ALL of us look bad.



You do realize that I did the job already?  See the link to the pics?  



elsaspet said:


> Secondly, why are you charging chump change?



I'm charging less than the going rate, b/c this was only my 2nd wedding, and the first time I charged anything for doing one.  It's nice to get a little compensation for your work.  If I charged $1500-2000 a wedding like the pros (Full Time photogs) I think the client would expect similar results, and while I don't generally bash my work, I wouldn't consider it on par with what others are doing 50-60 hours/week, every week.  



elsaspet said:


> Do you think your work is worth nothing? Yeah, if you leave it like it is, it is. Better your work via Photoshop and see your potential.



 ...extracted comments from original post...



elsaspet said:


> Very Nicely done! (Wow, it's hard to believe that is from your second.)
> 
> <Constructive, valuable and helpful criticism>
> 
> ...


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## shorty6049 (May 18, 2007)

you could always just tell her that she can buy them, or not..... at the price you charged, she should know that if one little thing isnt perfect, she shouldnt be able to complain... ( i mean, sure she still can, but that wont really get you anywhere..)


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## JimmyJaceyMom (May 19, 2007)

mysteryscribe said:


> And cindy what happens to the bride who really can't afford you. Does she just not have wedding pictures at all.


 
Well I agree with you here.  I know this sounds crazy but I have been thinking about how I was not able to afford a wedding photographer when I got married because of the cost and if I get to do this I am promising myself that I will help some people out.  Those memories are important and they're locked away in my mind forever but it would have been nice to have some for my children and grandchildren to see.


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## mysteryscribe (May 19, 2007)

Every photographer owes themselves a good living so that they will be there for the next bride. I don't mean to imply that they don't.

When I was in business, and my son in law even not but to a lesser extent geared our prices to the wal-mart model. Give a comperable product a little less expensive, then do one in parts.

$$$ gets you this, but if you want an album its $$$ more.. ect and it just keeps going up. It's up to the bride to decide how much she can afford. I (because I no longer make a living at photography) have a 1940 style wedding coverage as well. You can't do this because you cant sell it this cheap and miss the chance to do an expensive job. But in the forties all you got were pictures of the wedding party a few of the bride and groome and families, That's it none before and no reception. The photographer was there about an hour actually shooting. 

I offer that now, and then charge by the print. Three hundred bucks for that hour, then low resolution files which can be used to make up to 4x6. Then i sell the larger prints at a reasonable price, Even an album if you want to put out a few bucks more. 

Oh you want a big one for the wall that's 200 bucks. Like I said you couldn't do that but I can. I'm just doing it to keep my mind active. The trick for me is to make the max per hour that I can and still provide a minimum service. I don't do but one a month at the most. Of any kind. I'm retired I don't want to work much at all.

It's just my model and I don't recommend it to anyone else.  the full story is here   Http://811.1sta.com


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## JIP (May 19, 2007)

Johnboy2978 said:


> I'm charging less than the going rate, b/c this was only my 2nd wedding, and the first time I charged anything for doing one. It's nice to get a little compensation for your work. If I charged $1500-2000 a wedding like the pros (Full Time photogs) I think the client would expect similar results, and while I don't generally bash my work, I wouldn't consider it on par with what others are doing 50-60 hours/week, every week.


I think this is a good example of underpricing.  You charged a flat rate for a whole wedding and a cheap flat rate at that and now it all seems like too much.  your problem is you underpriced if you would have charged her a decent rate all this extra work would not seem so bad.  You charged her a lower rate than others but she is expecting the same type of wok she would get from others so why even bother.  Oh and Mysteryscribe $300 for 1 hour of wedding coverage _plus _up to $200 for a large sized print seems just about right I'm not sure where the value is.  If you spread those #'s out to the whole wedding $300 an hour over the whole 8 hour wedding you get $2400 for the wedding wich seems like a pretty pricey wedding to me especially if you only incluse low-res files and no prints.


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## The_Traveler (May 19, 2007)

To echo other people, one of your basic mistakes to to try and lump editing in with print costs. Editing an 8 x 10 or a 5 x 7 takes approximately the same simte. 

I am in the same place you are but doing theatrical pix and head shots. 
I am very clear that the editing is a huge part of my effort. 
 I charge X dollars for the shoot, x dollars for a certain number of camera ready pictures and price the pictures by the size. I 'give' them the entire shoot in low-res, culled but unedited on CD so they can do what they want and appreciate the advantage that editing brings.


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## mysteryscribe (May 19, 2007)

Spread it out it is possibly more. 

But if you can only afford 300 total, you get wedding pictures you can be reasonably sure are usable to make 4x6 prints. then files that are there if you want to buy mom that big one for her birthday six months from now. Assuming the bride was preggy at the wedding/ That is the appeal. 

Most of the brides on a very tight budget can't find a competant photographer to shoot anything under a grand. That's the problem not the amount of services for you buck. It's that you can't find anyone to do less than their whole package.

I do not fault the photographers for it at all. I stated out saying a photographer needs to make a good living or he wont be in business long. I can do this chopped down thing because I don't have to worry about a call a week later from someone dying to give me two grand for the same date. A two grand wedding is too much work for me these days. My website ever says that so I don't get many calls.

About the only editing they get from me is the crop and density. I can and will remove blems but it costs more. Shoot it right (to your own standards) and that's about all you need to do. My standards of acceptability might be lower than other folks. But to be honest not many of the brides I did, even back in the day, knew as much about photography as you guys.

Never ever cull your samples for only the best of the best. If you do you are being slightly dishonest because every shot you make at their wedding will not be the best of the best.  Not to mention what happens if you wind up in small claims court.. I never have mind you but I have seen peoples court. rofl


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## Alex_B (May 19, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> I charge X dollars for the shoot, x dollars for a certain number of camera ready pictures and price the pictures by the size. I 'give' them the entire shoot in low-res, culled but unedited on CD so they can do what they want and appreciate the advantage that editing brings.



that sounds like a very reasonable approach!


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## mysteryscribe (May 19, 2007)

I think that is a reasonable way to price it as well. It is how I did it most of my career and how my son in law does it now. The way I do it a working pro could not survive, but then I'm no competition to them so we get along fine. 

Of course back in the day we called it retouch and nobody ever paid for it. It was too damn expensive for wedding candids.  Now people expect you to give it to them.


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## The_Traveler (May 19, 2007)

FYI -
here is the show I 'give' them.
http://www.slide.com/r/1ljKTZCB2z91iXdeKlpaqDd9oYIfFhg8


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## NJMAN (May 19, 2007)

I remember your samples from the other post, and I think you did a fantastic job John.  Also, you did great work on the composite of the mother and daughter.  You have nothing to be ashamed of in regards to the job you did or the price you asked for.  Even though I am speaking from the perspective of someone with a total lack of experience in the field of wedding photography, I feel that you were very accommodating to the bride, given the unfortunate circumstances of the "pro" ditching them at the last minute.  In my opinion, it seems she wanted to get her frustrations out on someone, and you just happened to be a convenient target.


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## The_Traveler (May 19, 2007)

*Management of expectations*

There is an unfortunate life lesson in this. People don't make a good connection between price and expectation.   They may want a low price but their expectation is that low price represents little less fancy or fewer 'things.'
As far as most people are concerned, the pictures just appear and there is little training, talent or other effort involved. They are generally ignorant of the behind the scenes stuff necessary to make everything happen.

The clients should be made to understand exactly what you will do, what you will use, how much time it takes out of their sight and exactly what they get for the money up front. 

There can/should be some flexibility but if that flexibility requires more work on your part, they need to understand that, in writing, up front.


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## elsaspet (May 19, 2007)

Sorry for the tanty.  You did a good job as I remember.   Too much vino while in a nasty mood.
Sorry.


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## ADELICATEIMAGE (May 21, 2007)

i think the prints are good


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## RMThompson (May 21, 2007)

Interesting thread. I just got done with my first wedding, see the post in this thread, and it certainly was an adventure.

I took pictures from 5pm - 11 pm, with a few 5 minute breaks for eating/drinking/etc... I took a total of 1300 pictures, give or take 75.

Sunday my family went to Busch Gardens Tampa, and I stayed home and edited the first 800 pictures over the course of 4/5 hours, preparing them for the Bride and Groom's usage. I will finish the rest sometime this week, and will provide to them around 200 - 250 pictures ready for printing on CD(s). 

I also bought them a Bridal Frame, a card, and wrapped it all with a certificate for one free 8x10 from me, so they get at least 1 8x10 and I might even consider giving them 20 4x6's.... because the cost is so low for me (.19 cents each).

When they get the CD they will also recieve a certificate of permission from me that states they can copy/duplicate the photographs for their own private usage... so they can make copies, blow them up, etc etc, but they cannot sell prints or blow one up for a marketing campaign without my permission.

I charged a total of $500.00

OK - so it was low... but I am of the mind like several people here that many many couples would NEVER had a photographer if they have to pay more than $1000... Also I don't like the arrogance of the idea of me retaining pictures of their special day and charging through the nose for prints of them 3 years from now when they want to redo them. 

I charge for my time and give them all the rights to do what they want... they pay for their own prints... or if they want, I can charge per print and get them professionally done through a local company, or a book or a poster sized print, which I DO CHARGE extra for my time for.

My next wedding will I charge only $500 ??? No way.... it's at least 20 hours worth of work, plus equipment cost/overhead, hiring an asisstant if needed, etc etc etc... 

HOWEVER - IF a bride came to me with $500 dollars, or even less, and asked what I could do... I'd probably help them out.

Which brings me to a question me and a friend I met at the wedding talked about... Is it ethically wrong to charge LESS based on the beauty of the couple? If someone offered me a job in a beautiful hotel shooting a gorgeous couple, you know the type that would look great on my portfolio, should I be inclined to charge "LESS" to win the job?

Perhaps.... perhaps....


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## mysteryscribe (May 21, 2007)

It's your business charge what you want, for whatever reason you want. 

That's how I feel about it. No one should criticize anyone for what they charge, high or low.


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## bowronfam3 (May 21, 2007)

Well, I don't have any advice for you about the situation posted here, but I wanted to let you know that I looked at the other photos from this wedding that you have posted and I must say that I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit.  Your wedding photos look very professional in my opinion.  Now, granted I only saw about 10 shots from this particular wedding, but I didn't see anything that didn't look "professional".  I think that if you don't see yourself as a professional, then that may be how you're coming off to this bride.  Therefore, she is seeing the opportunity to jack you around about these photos.  Keep your head up and stand firm!!  Remember, that in ANY business you're always going to come across some greedy, rude people!


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## JIP (May 21, 2007)

RMThompson said:


> Interesting thread. I just got done with my first wedding, see the post in this thread, and it certainly was an adventure.
> 
> I took pictures from 5pm - 11 pm, with a few 5 minute breaks for eating/drinking/etc... I took a total of 1300 pictures, give or take 75.
> 
> ...


$500... Wow and I thought his $600 was low.  Remember these are the kind of prices you will  have to compete against later in your career as a wedding photographer.  Sometimes this kind of a situation shows why people should start working for someone else for a while so they can let someone else wory abut pricing over or under and let you worry about hoing your skills.


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## Johnboy2978 (May 21, 2007)

Hi all.  Thought I'd check back in.  I learned how to batch process this weekend thanks to other members here on the forum (you guys are great...I learn so much) and I gave them a disk today of all the pics unedited except for auto adjustments and converted to 600x800 with a big copyright stamp across the middle.  I also showed her the composite above and she was really thrilled with this.  

I gave it some thought, and I guess it would've been nice when I got married 13 years ago to have been able to pick which pics we wanted.  I think our pro charged us about $1000 then and we got something like 36 pics some 5x7 and some 8x10.  I think this one will come out okay soon.  I have also been considering raising my prices.  I don't have people beating down my door to shoot their weddings and what I have done so far has pretty much paid for all my toys.  Still, as many of you are aware, it is a lot of pressure and editing is so time consuming.  

I was thinking of raising my price on future weddings to $800 as well as increasing my price of prints.  I am also toying w/ the idea of a per hour option where the B/G could pay like $200/hr and then their prints would be extra.  Anyone here do that?  I've seen it offered on some photog's sites.  
Thoughts?


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## Johnboy2978 (May 21, 2007)

JIP said:


> $500... Wow and I thought his $600 was low.  Remember these are the kind of prices you will  have to compete against later in your career as a wedding photographer.  Sometimes this kind of a situation shows why people should start working for someone else for a while so they can let someone else wory abut pricing over or under and let you worry about hoing your skills.




In my area, there are established photogs charging 1500-3000+ for a wedding.  These guys are booked well in advance.  There are several newer photographers though who are new to the scene charging in the $800 -1000 range though and seem to be getting a pretty good following.  I'm not sure I would pay that for what I've seen from them, but there's many people like me out there who do it as a side job on the cheap to compete against.  I think had I been doing this a few years ago, before my child was born and dependable income was a necessity, I would probably quit my real job and really make a name for myself.  I think I have enough marketing ideas and strategies that I could capture my share of the business in my area if I could live off beans for a year or so.


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## mysteryscribe (May 22, 2007)

Glad this worked out for you...  Good luck in the future...


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## Big Mike (May 22, 2007)

I took at 'designing wedding photography' course a while back.  One of of the main points that the instructor (a long time pro) hammered into us...was that we should not charge too little.  He said that many of the people who have tried and failed to make it as wedding photographers...did so, because they didn't charge enough.

One exercise we did, he had us make a list of things that shouldn't influence the price we charge.  We came up with things like; number of people in the bridal party, age of the couple, attractiveness of the couple, etc.  The answer that we was looking for was _experience._   If you can produce good results, you should charge for it...it shouldn't matter if it's your first or 1000th wedding.

That being said, there is a market for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford a typical wedding photographer...but keep in mind, quite often, the people who don't want to pay the average price, will want more than average.  I've heard many times, that someone raised their prices...then found that they actually booked more weddings and had better clients.


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## mysteryscribe (May 22, 2007)

I have heard that myth as well.... Could it be urban legend or photographers trying to get rid of the lower price competitors. I have no idea. What I know is that photography, like any other free market business, follows the supply and demand curve. 

Getting photographers out of the "we are special" mind set is hard to do. If you can create more demand for YOUR particular services, then you can charge higher prices. If you can't create your own demand but have to get into the market place and struggle, then you have to do what you have to do.

Most photographers who fail are

a. poor businessmen and can't get enough work at any price. or b. have such high overhead expenses they can't make a profit no matter how much income they have. Nothing guarentee to fail like a new business with huge debt. 

That is my opinion based only on watching the yellow page ads and talking to people who dont make it. No scientific facts at all. 

The high priced spread in our town has as much turn over as the low price. My little operation ran continually for twenty years here and ten in a neighboring town. 

Two brick and mortar downtown ones also stayed in and they charged big prices. So it wasn't the charged price it was the profit. Truth is that it is hard to keep demand for you product steady no matter what you charge.

Wedding photography is no different from other photography forms. It just isn't as well organized. School pictures make a hell of a lot more pictures than I ever did. Their prices were compatable with mine. 

you can alter the supply and demand curve but that is an economics course not a photography course. Hey its just my opinion.

The secret to curbing unreasonable demands isnt in the price, its in a clear understanding *IN WRITING* before you start the job. If she has a special desire you should get it out up front and deal with it in the contract then make sure she understand you are going to do exactly what is written down. no more on less. Then do a little more as a surprise.

The more people charge the more likely they are to have learned the above and the less likely they are to have problems in either case.


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## Johnboy2978 (May 22, 2007)

Hey Big Mike, I just changed my prices as a result of this thread and my recent experience.  I increased it to a minimum of $800.  My plan in the beginning was to increase it with each wedding until it eventually reached around $1200 where it would remain.   

I agree with your prof that you should charge what you can deliver.  I've seen the work of others who have done many weddings and their quality is still rather meager.  On the other hand, I've seen those who are just starting out, have only shot a few weddings and their quality is phenominal.  Still, others tend to look at you like you're crazy when they see you are charging as much as the full time pro, and you've only shot a couple.  In the end, you are probably better off if they do become someone else's problem anyway.  I really dislike my day job, but it does pay the bills and for now at least, I don't "have" to take any photo job I don't want.  It's hard to pass some up though when you are looking to expand the portfolio.


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## Big Mike (May 22, 2007)

I understand what you mean, I'm sort of in the same position.  I've done a bunch of wedding shooting but really only one on my own.  I set my prices well into the average for my area, but I would certainly consider lowering my price to get more experience, if the situation was right.

As people have said, being successful is more about being a good business person and a good people person, than being a great photographer.  You could charge $10,000 an hour, with no experience...if you are a good enough salesman.  Unfortunately, there are many photographers who are probably overselling their talent level...well I guess it's not unfortunate for them.

Part of the point I was trying to make was that for long term success it would be beneficial if jobs went smoothly.  People that I have talked to, often say that things go more smoothly with higher paying clients...that's a generalization and maybe part myth...but if you had the choice, would you rather shoot two $700 weddings in a month, or one $2000 wedding?

Further to that, once you are established...it makes sense to raise your prices until it causes you to loose too many clients.  The law of diminishing returns.  

Also, once you have a personal style...wouldn't it be best if all your clients wanted that style?  Many successful pros have a distinct style and high prices...which ensures that most clients are coming to them for that style...which makes things easier and smoother for them.  It's a win-win...but getting to that point probably isn't as easy as it sounds.


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## Johnboy2978 (May 22, 2007)

Big Mike said:


> ...but if you had the choice, would you rather shoot two $700 weddings in a month, or one $2000 wedding?




Well, if I had my choice, I'd find that couple w/ much disposable income and charge them 50K and work 1 weekend a year


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## dewey (May 22, 2007)

Just remember to be patient.  You need to build your business.  I remember the days of $500 weddings... everyone must pay their dues.  Keep at it and you'll be commanding big money before you know it.


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