# How many would feel guilty?



## enerlevel (May 30, 2015)

Ok so here is the problem.
A friend wants to buy a brand new canon 6D. But then he saw some preowned 5D mark III for just a little bit more.
How many of you would feel guilty of buying a 6D when you could get a 5D mark III for the same price or vice versa.. and by this I am not talking about any technical specs or what he wants..  more like higher model perception or value of money ...

Also note that he just has a 50mm f1.4 atm. But wants to buy the 24-105f4 as general purpose.. if he buys the 6D, he can get that lens now. If he settles for 5D then he will have to wait for the 24-105 but eventually he will get it.


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## tirediron (May 30, 2015)

I would feel guilty buying any Canon!


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## enerlevel (May 30, 2015)

Lol ... But he like it


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## Derrel (May 30, 2015)

I would rather own the 5D Mark III for the better body construction, "feel", and better AF system. Yes, the 6D has higher technical image quality, but it feels kind of second-class, whereas the 5D-III is a big step up from the 5D and 5D Mark II, both of which were second-class camera bodies. It's kind of weird, how stripped down the 6D is...it is sooooo basic, compared to the Nikon competitors, like the D610 or even the older 600 or the new D7200...the 5D Mark III has now-outdated sensor technology (compared to what Nikon or Sony can offer in FF cameras), but the "machine" part of the 5D-III, meaning the design, fit,feel,subsystems, all that stuff is so much nicer than what the 6D offers; Canon DELIBERATELY made the 6D low-specification, so as NOT to compete with the 5D-II or 5D-III sales, or sales of anything else for that matter.

Used Canon 24-105-L IS USM lenses are affordable and plentiful on the used market. If he wants a camera for "status" reasons, or just pride of ownership, or appreciation of engineering prowess, the 5D-III is the cleat choice over a 6D, which was always the 'economy model' choice. I bought a 5D classic, still have it. If today I had to buy a 6D new or a used 5D-III for even remotely similar prices, I would buy the 5D-III. I do not do any astrophotography, nor much high-ISO stuff, so to me, the 5D-III would be the clear choice.


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## bribrius (May 30, 2015)

is there even a way to answer this?


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## enerlevel (May 30, 2015)

Well I know the post is sort of weird but every now and then we do think what's better for the money as a brand new 5D mark III cost twice of 6D..  And if you can enjoy a second hand 5D for similar price then why not? and then there is always the Higher model perception. Also because both these models are again due for an upgrade so technically if he gets a new 6D, get might be losing value much sooner.... 
But then there are plenty who would give a valid reason why 6D is better and that's why I posted in the first place... To hear all the opinions


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## TCampbell (May 30, 2015)

How experienced is your friend?  

The 5D III is a more advanced camera than the 6D.  The 6D slightly inches out the 5D III in ISO performance (not by much) but "everything else" on the 5D III is so much advanced (build, focus system, features, performance, etc.)  Keep in mind that "more advanced" also means "more to learn" -- so I'm cautious about recommending such a camera to a beginner (even if money is not an issue.)

The 6D is intended and targeted as an "entry level" full-frame camera.  Part of that means keeping the price lower.  Part of that also means keeping the camera simpler.

Since the 6D would be "new" but the 5D III would be "used" I would also have to consider what sort of condition the 5D III is in and the shutter count.

The 6D has a rather basic focus system.  It looks just like the 9 point AF system on the 5D Classic, 5D II and most all the Rebel models (excluding the new T6i & T6s) -- but it adds two extra AF points just left and right of the center point -- making it an 11 point system.  Only the center point is "cross type".   

The 5D III has 61 AF points, 41 of them are "cross type", and it has focus modes... lots and lots of focusing modes.  You can use standard single point AF, "spot" AF (reduced size on the AF point), expanded area AF (clusters 5 points including center point plus the point above, below, left, and right), "surround" area AF, (a cluster of 9 points), "zone" AF, and full 61-point mode.    If shooting action, there are a number of tracking options and you get to tune the system to do whatever is best for the type of section (whether it should stick to original subject, jump to a new subject, whether subjects tend to move in the same direction or whether they tend to jump around a lot, if sticky to one subject... how long should it delay before jumping to a new subject, etc. etc.  It's an extremely advanced system -- so advanced that I caution people that you need to spend some time learning the system.


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## enerlevel (May 30, 2015)

TCampbell said:


> How experienced is your friend?
> 
> The 5D III is a more advanced camera than the 6D.  The 6D slightly inches out the 5D III in ISO performance (not by much) but "everything else" on the 5D III is so much advanced (build, focus system, features, performance, etc.)  Keep in mind that "more advanced" also means "more to learn" -- so I'm cautious about recommending such a camera to a beginner (even if money is not an issue.)
> 
> ...




Thanks for your reply. Yes he does know how to use the camera so that's not a problem.. Yes a valid point is about the 5d mark III used condition. ..
Well the one he has been offered is 8000 shutter with some paint coming off but nothing major. I have just been informed that the difference between the two is  $200. He would spend the 24-105 savings into the 5D purchase if that doesn't make him regret later about the 6D purchase..  like I said both are not less of a camera but over here we are discussing more about the Value, higher model perception ..


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## jaomul (May 31, 2015)

A friend of mine got rid if a 5d3 to buy a 6d. He is a great photographer but likes the more simple set up. I'd say he had no idea about the supposed slight better image quality of the 6d, he just wanted a simpler camera


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## soufiej (May 31, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Ok so here is the problem.
> A friend wants to buy a brand new canon 6D. But then he saw some preowned 5D mark III for just a little bit more.
> How many of you would feel guilty of buying a 6D when you could get a 5D mark III for the same price or vice versa.. and by this I am not talking about any technical specs or what he wants..  more like higher model perception or value of money ...
> 
> Also note that he just has a 50mm f1.4 atm. But wants to buy the 24-105f4 as general purpose.. if he buys the 6D, he can get that lens now. If he settles for 5D then he will have to wait for the 24-105 but eventually he will get it.



How can you ask whether someone would feel guilty?  You cannot assign guilt to anyone other than yourself - and maybe your dog when the sofa has been eaten while you were away.  Even then, possibly it's you who should have taken better care of your dog.  And what we would do is also none of your business.  You ask a very insulting question IMO.     

You have no idea of your "friend's" intentions or motivations.  IMO you're simply posting here to find some who will agree with your "I am superior" assessment of this individual's perceived stupidity and immorality.  He's not buying what you think is the "appropriate" gear, so you feel you should criticize what he is buying?!  It's said too often on forums but I think it applies here, grow up.  And shut up, certainly to your friend and about your friend.    

I agree with Tim when he says a beginner probably shouldn't make the most complicated product their first piece of gear.  However, having sold high end electronics for several decades, this happens all the time.  My job as a sales person was not to question the purchase, only to facilitate satisfaction in ownership.  Many clients entered the store having already made up their mind they would own "X" simply because they perceived "X" brand or "Y" model as above others in quality and name recognition.  They had their reasons and, if their money was not acquired by immoral or illegal means, no one has any business commenting on what others choose to own.  Would you criticize him if he was on this fourth trophy wife?  That too is none of your business.  Friends stick by their friends.  Otherwise, you are not being much of a friend.  Think what you care to, but keep your mouth shut and don't run to forums to report on what your friend is up to.  Even anonymously.      

Your friend may take pride in having high end gear just as he may take pride in having nice clothes or taking high end vacations.  Maybe none of that.  Maybe he's just another jerk with money.  If so, question your reason for being his friend but do not question his actions with his money.   None of this is your business.  It is, IMO, a bit of a shame when people buy just to have and their attention span can't bring them to settle on any one thing and learn how to enjoy the hobby for its benefits rather than simply for owning stuff.  That, however, is a comment on society as a whole, not on a single friend.  If your friend never progresses beyond taking Sunday morning snaps of his cat, then he's wasted a lot of technology.  But it is his money to spend on what gives him pleasure.

Period.

Is he borrowing money from you to make this purchase?  No?  Then shut up.

Is he somehow taking money from you that would have otherwise gone to your keeping a roof over your head?  Food in your stomach?  No?  Then shut up.

Did he kick an old lady and steal her purse on the way into the store?  No?  Then shut up and stay shut up.    

It really isn't your place to criticize your supposed friend.  I've been on too many forums where someone is criticized (by some a-hole who equates what they own with their value as a human being) simply because they don't own what someone else feels is an adequate component.  Of the two, I'm not sure which is the more egregious flaw but I certainly know which is the most out of place.  

Encourage this friend to become a better photographer and enjoy his company as a friend.  If he's a good friend, realize no one has enough good friends to go around.   

I fully understand it's difficult to watch someone throw money at what seems to be an illogical choice but, it's not your choice to make or your place to comment.  If this friend truly is a friend, it's your business to remain his friend.   You don't do that by running to tell others what your friend is doing.  IMO you're not much of a friend if you head to a forum to get an opinion on what this fellow is up to.   Look at your own behavior and motivations, not those of your friend.


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## enerlevel (May 31, 2015)

soufiej said:


> enerlevel said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so here is the problem.
> ...




Thanks for your lengthy reply but none of it actually helped. Let me ask again incase you didn't understand "how many of you would feel guilty or regret buying a brand new 6D when you could buy a second hand 5D mark III".
Your comments like its not my money, me of my problem , I am lending money to him .... does it even make any sense to you???
Also phrase like "shut up" is allowed in this forum? Didn't know 

P.s:- I am not critisizing anyone. It's a decision which my friend asked me and I myself am not sure which is why I have come to ask here. Many times you see questions like these to either buy a new X product when you can buy a higher end Y used product. As a sales person I am sure SOMEONE would had brought this argument to you? And is this what you reply to them ?


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## soufiej (May 31, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Thanks for your lengthy reply but none of it actually helped. Let me ask again incase you didn't understand "how many of you would feel guilty or regret buying a brand new 6D when you could buy a second hand 5D mark III".
> Your comments like its not my money, me of my problem , I am lending money to him .... does it even make any sense to you???
> Also phrase like "shut up" is allowed in this forum? Didn't know
> 
> P.s:- I am not critisizing anyone. It's a decision which my friend asked me and I myself am not sure which is why I have come to ask here. Many times you see questions like these to either buy a new X product when you can buy a higher end Y used product. As a sales person I am sure SOMEONE would had brought this argument to you? And is this what you reply to them ?




Then, I'd say, you've phrased your initial question poorly.  "Guilt" has nothing to do with the purchase if your last post is true.  If your friend is simply asking for advice on which camera to buy, guilt is not an issue for you, or this forum, to decide - still.  

If you were simply looking for technical advice, say so.  But do not go to motive.  

And, while I'm not a moderator, I'd say "shut up" is acceptable when it is not a response due to an insulting comment made directly to me. 

The advice is, when your friends do something you disagree with, it's most often best to just keep your mouth closed about it.  Unless, that is, their actions place you in an either illegal or immoral position.  Asking, "Which should I buy", does neither - if the money being used is indeed their own.  

Asking if your friend is doing something immoral - and is, therefore, guilty of some infraction - by spending for "X" camera is simply not what you should be doing IMO.   Asking which is the wiser purchase does not go to guilt.   

As a sales person, passing judgement  - if the money has not been acquired by illegal means - is not my job.   If someone comes in with obviously stolen money or a stolen credit card, that's a different issue.  Part of my job as a sales person is to protect the store which employs me.  Willfully accepting stolen goods fails at that priority.


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## enerlevel (May 31, 2015)

soufiej said:


> enerlevel said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your lengthy reply but none of it actually helped. Let me ask again incase you didn't understand "how many of you would feel guilty or regret buying a brand new 6D when you could buy a second hand 5D mark III".
> ...




I don't agree nor disagree with him. If I did then I would not be asking here and would had given my direct agreed or disagreed advice. 
So you telling me that as a sales person you have never had a situation where a customer comes and asks you if x camera is good for the price or y camera ?
P.s:- English is not my first language so maybe I used the word in a wrong way. However you could had simply written to replace the word guilt with regret or wiser purchase without going to illegal money, shutup etc.


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## TCampbell (May 31, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Used Canon 24-105-L IS USM lenses are affordable and plentiful on the used market.



The EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM is a bit special in that it happens to be the "kit" lens included with higher end bodies (if ordered as a body+lens kit).  When Canon introduces a new model, I've noticed they tend to produce the "kit" packaging in much higher volume than the "body only" packaging.  But this gets interesting because while the 24-105 sells for $1000 USD on it's own (well... $999) if you subtract the price of the "body only" packaging from the price of the "body + lens" kit, the difference is about $600.... so you're paying $600 for a $1000 lens because you bought it as part of a "kit".

It turns out, a lot of people buying higher end camera probably are not buying their first camera and already own a nice lens collection.  They don't necessarily need or want this 24-105mm lens... even at $600 instead of the $1000 retail price.  So two things happen:

Either (a) the buyer purchases the "kit" because the store couldn't get the "body only" version and then the buyer turns around and sells the 24-105, or (b) the store pulls the 24-105 out of the "kit" box and sells the camera (without the lens) to a buyer who wanted "body only" packaging and then they repackage the lens into a "white box" and sell it separately at a reduced price.

This is exactly how I got my 5D III.  I was an early buyer and I only wanted the body (I already owned a nice set of lenses).  Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) could manage to get a "body only" camera (I actually wondered if Canon wasn't even producing the "body only" until they could saturate the sales of "body + lens" kit first.)  So I found a store that pulled the lens out of the box (they "white box" the lens and sell it separately) and shipped me everything else (camera, battery, charger, documentation set, etc.)

This means it's somewhat easy to find the 24-105mm "new" in a "white box" packaging (especially when Canon releases a new camera that would have included that lens as part of the "kit").

It also means that if you want a "used" 24-105... so many people know you can get it "new" for $600 that they are unwilling to pay too much for a used copy.  Used copies might go for $400-550 USD (depending on condition).

I don't necessarily recommend people buy "used" lenses unless they are (a) "refurbished" (sold by the manufacturer and come with a warranty), or (b) sold via a well-known merchant who has a reputation for accurately accessing the functionality and condition of a used lens (e.b. KEH.com, B&H Photo, Adorama, etc. have "used" departments and each lens gets a rating that tells you what sort of condition to expect.), or (c) you have BOTH the ability to inspect the lens prior to purchase AND you know what to look for (clean condition -- no fungus on the optics, smooth function of the focus system, smoother function of the zoom system, the aperture blades are working correctly, etc.)


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## goodguy (May 31, 2015)

Buying the 5D III over the 6D and feeling guilty about it ?
LOL, I would feel guilty buying the 6D over the 5D III even if the 24-105mm is on the line.
Except low light performance the 5D III is a beast on a whole different level.


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## Dao (Jun 1, 2015)

I think it really depends on what the person need.  A multimillionaire may just buy a point and shoot camera instead of high end DSLR simply because of that's what he/she need.   That person may feel guilt if he/she spend more for a high end setup that he/she does not need.

For me, camera purchase is quite personal. I like a lighter setup. So 6D maybe better for me (or the Sony A7 too)

Guilt or not can go both ways.  
i.e.

- Now that after I'd try the 5D III,  I'm glad I saved $200 for getting the 6D.   There are no difference at all what so ever between the 2 cameras when I taking my nature and family photos!!

or

- Man! I wished I spend the extra $200 for that 5D III used body.  Is it me or the camera?  I just can't get the focus right for those flying birds.  It must be the camera. IT MUST BE!

So it is really up to your friend for what he/she want.


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## enerlevel (Jun 1, 2015)

Thanks all for the reply. Today we tried both the cameras at a local store with the 50mm f1.4  and a couple of other lens.. the 6D seemed to be a little front or back focused most of the time... I tried to adjust to about +7 and it seemed to be sharper at that setting... the 5D needed no cal. With all of the lens... is this something my friend would need to cal. most of the lens with 6D and none with the 5D? Or was it just by chance that the 6D didn't focus pin sharp with 3 out of 4 lens ?


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## JacaRanda (Jun 1, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Thanks all for the reply. Today we tried both the cameras at a local store with the 50mm f1.4  and a couple of other lens.. the 6D seemed to be a little front or back focused most of the time... I tried to adjust to about +7 and it seemed to be sharper at that setting... the 5D needed no cal. With all of the lens... is this something my friend would need to cal. most of the lens with 6D and none with the 5D? Or was it just by chance that the 6D didn't focus pin sharp with 3 out of 4 lens ?


 
He should calibrate his own lenses with either camera if necessary.


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## soufiej (Jun 1, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> So you telling me that as a sales person you have never had a situation where a customer comes and asks you if x camera is good for the price or y camera ?
> P.s:- English is not my first language so maybe I used the word in a wrong way. However you could had simply written to replace the word guilt with regret or wiser purchase without going to illegal money, shutup etc.




I don't see how my answering THAT question goes to a resolution of your original post.  Nor do I see it as my place to correct your language usage just to make your post seem less judgemental of your friend's motives.

Asking a sales "assistant" (in other words, a qualified, trained and knowledgeable sales person) whether one component is "good for the price" has two distinctions in this particular matter.

The first is, asking such a question implies no guilt on the part of the buyer or the seller.

Second, no sales person is likely to directly answer such a question.  A sales person only facilitates the process, they do not complete the process for the client.

A good salesperson's job is to facilitate; to lead the client through the sales process and to direct - through a series of steps - a business transaction toward a (satisfying to both parties) conclusion.  Sales is a process, a process which  hopefully narrows the decisions for the client to an acceptable few.  Though some sales personnel treat it otherwise, no sales person is there to say, "Buy this or else".  There is an early stage of the sales process known as "qualifying the client".  Ideally, this is time spent discussing the priorities, the needs and the desires of the prospective buyer.  It is not the time when the sales person goes to the stock room to check what they need to sell that day.

During the qualifying stage, the sales person is attempting to make it a bit more obvious to the client what it is they might want/need as well as making it more certain to the sales person what they do have in their stock which might best suit the client's stated desires.  So, had I been asked the question, " ... if x camera is good for the price or y camera", there would be no answer I could provide which I could stand behind until I knew more about the client and their history with equipment and their future possible uses of their equipment.  That actually is a fairly short answer to your question.  The shortest answer is, it's not the sales person's job to say which is better, that's why the store will have a good supply of available products from which the client may select the most appropriate.

Your use of the word "guilty" may be due to your unfamiliarity with the English language.  Yet, "guilt" implies someone has done something they should not have done.  In one sense, it is a legal term which means you've broken the law.  In another it can mean you've done something you should not have even considered.  (There's a rather well known George Carlin comedy routine dealing with that peculiar brand of sin caused by "Catholic guilt".)  That you have broken a trust and a bond may cause guilty feelings.  It is a different level of feeling and responsibility which is distinct from regret or remorse.

Many buyers have the well known "buyer's remorse" the day after they have made a purchase.  They may regret spending money that was ear-marked for another use.  They may have remorse over buying on an impulse.  They may find the product is not what they needed/desired or that it is not well suited to their situation.   They now regret the purchase and have remorse for their impetuous nature.

Guilt however, is an entirely different breed of horse.  Guilt is the thoroughbred of doing something wrong.  It is the Triple Crown winner and the high priced stud of shameful actions.  Judging one product more appropriate to your needs than another product does not enter into the same qualifying rounds with the truly "guilty".

Judgement is not the same as buying a product using money obtained through illegal or immoral actions.  Or by breaking a trust that you shouldn't have made the purchase.

I was once presented a credit card with the name of a female card holder on the front.  The "buyers" were two young teenaged boys who wanted an electronic component.  I asked for ID from the two boys.  When I questioned the card holder's name vs their appearance and the lack of a similar name on any document, I was told the card holder was their aunt and they were sent to buy the component for her.  I said I would need her permission to complete the sale and in the process notified store security of the situation.  The boys could not supply a contact number for their "aunt" and when security showed up at the front of the store, they ran.  We contacted the credit card company and the card had just been reported as having been stolen/lost.  To have simply completed the sale so I could receive a commission would have been a breach of trust between myself and my employer at the time.   Both the boys and I would have been guilty of a misdemeanor/felony, though their crime would have been unlike my own.   Either way, we all could have been judged "guilty" in a court of law.

I did, however, once sell an audio system to a couple using stolen money and stolen identities.  The manager of the store OK'd the deal and we loaded the gear into their car.  It wasn't until another few months had passed that the police notified the shop of the extent of their crime and our part in the process.  There was no intent on the part of myself nor the manager to accept stolen money or to pass along stolen merchandise, so there was no crime and, therefore, no guilt on our part.

I have sold items to be used as a gift to another person in the buyer's family.  Technically, that is called a "strawman purchase" and it can be illegal on both a state and Federal level.   The family members supplied sufficient proof they were not attempting to skirt the law, just to keep the purchase a secret until they could surprise their relative.  Once we were as certain as possible regarding the legality of the sale, we proceeded to assist the family members in their wish.  Legal issues recognize there are circumstances where, say, a father buys a daughter a new car (without her name being on the title) or a son a new camera for the sake of being "family".  No laws have been violated and no "guilt" has been assumed.

Broadly speaking, in legal terms, someone may be "guilty" of stealing money with which they purchased goods or used it for their own enrichment.

Someone may feel morally "guilty" when they have not rightfully earned the money they have used for a purchase.

Someone on a diet may feel remorse for eating three slices of pie.

Someone who has just finished off a large holiday meal may feel regret for having those last, additional two slices of pie.

I don't know if that helps you understand the English language any more completely, but assigning "guilt" to your friend's situation was, IMO, the wrong way to state your question if he is simply deciding which camera is best suited for his needs.

Hope that helps.  Though I doubt this has much to do with your initial post.


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## TCampbell (Jun 1, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Thanks all for the reply. Today we tried both the cameras at a local store with the 50mm f1.4  and a couple of other lens.. the 6D seemed to be a little front or back focused most of the time... I tried to adjust to about +7 and it seemed to be sharper at that setting... the 5D needed no cal. With all of the lens... is this something my friend would need to cal. most of the lens with 6D and none with the 5D? Or was it just by chance that the 6D didn't focus pin sharp with 3 out of 4 lens ?



It's a body-by-body feature -- not the model.... even the individual body... you could test two 6D bodies side-by-side and get completely different results with each.

When using the viewfinder, light enters the lens, hits the reflex mirror and bounces UP onto the focusing screen (and metering is up there too).  But the mirror is semi-transparent and behind the primary reflex mirror there is a secondary mirror hinged to the back of the primary mirror.  That mirror bounces light DOWN into the AF sensor array.    It's supposed to be designed so that the distance the light has to travel from the mirror up to the focusing screen is the SAME as the distance DOWN to the AF sensor array and ALSO the SAME as the distance straight through to the imaging sensor once the mirrors swing clear and the shutter opens for the shot.   

There are three screws on the sensor which "shim" the imaging sensor both front to back as well top to bottom and left to right.  If the sensor wasn't perfectly shimmed at the factory then it's possible for the AF sensor to think it has achieved focus even though the sensor thinks it is just fractionally out of focus.  This is why you can micro-adjust the auto-focus system.  It is also possible for the focus to be different on each individual lens.   This is why the auto-focus micro-adjustment (AFMA) allows you to adjust each lens individually and the camera will "remember" the adjustment for each unique lens that you use.

See:  LensRentals.com - This lens is soft and other myths


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## enerlevel (Jun 1, 2015)

soufiej said:


> enerlevel said:
> 
> 
> > So you telling me that as a sales person you have never had a situation where a customer comes and asks you if x camera is good for the price or y camera ?
> ...



Thank you very much... now can we move on ? 
Brand new 6D or preowned 5D mark III ?


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## soufiej (Jun 1, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Thank you very much... now can we move on ?
> Brand new 6D or preowned 5D mark III ?


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## Dao (Jun 2, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> Thank you very much... now can we move on ?
> Brand new 6D or preowned 5D mark III ?



You are basically asking "A new Ford Escort or a used F 150 SuperCrew 4x4?" "A new Toyota Camry or used Lexus ES350?"  All can take 5 people from A to B, however, different people choose different cars based on their need.  It really does not matter what we think, it matters what your friend think.  

I believe if you asked what is the advantage of 6D over 5D III or vice versa, someone who have experience with both cameras may be able to give you some advice.


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