# Time to start rolling my own!



## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Finally received the last components of the goodies needed to "roll my own":







Bulk loader, 10 reusable canisters, a 100' of Ilford PanF Plus and a dark bag.  Now I'm _really_ gonna be smokin'!


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2014)

I'd skip the bulk loader altogether.  I found it way more of a pain in the sitmedownupon than a help.  Just lay everything out nicely in a dark room and go to town.


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## pixmedic (Nov 28, 2014)

Granted it's been a long time.....
But I don't remember needing any of that fancy equipment last time I rolled my own.


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## Tinderbox (UK) (Nov 28, 2014)

So how many shot can you fit in a canister, are you limited to 36

John.


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2014)

I usually got 39-40 into a standard Ilford cannister.


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I'd skip the bulk loader altogether.  I found it way more of a pain in the sitmedownupon than a help. ...




If I had the process down pat, I might.  But at $10/36x roll at the local  brick'n'mortar store, it gets expensive to try each variation in the process.  This way, I can roll off 4-5 frames and develop it to see where I need to go.

And even if I did roll nothing but 36x rolls, this whole shebang cost me the sum total of $111.  It would garner me 22 rolls of 36x rolls, which would be $220 at the camera store.  BAM..... *half off* _even if I never buy another 100' roll_.

Should I buy yet another 100' roll.... 44 rolls @ $162..... $3.68 per........  _$277_ of savings.  And with each 100' roll, the cost per roll will continue to dwindle.  Third roll would net a total of 66 rolls.... $214 rolling my own, $660 at the store.  Net $446 in my bank account.

Now, who wouldn't like $400+ towards some nice glass?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







tirediron said:


> ....Just lay everything out nicely in a dark room and go to town.



The only darkroom time needed is to put the film in the loader.  Everything else is daylight.


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## Josh66 (Nov 28, 2014)

I've been bulk loading for a while now - great way to save money.

Be aware though - I also recently (well, not "recently", but I've been using it pretty slowly) bought a 100' roll of Pan F+, and it has *horrible* reciprocity characteristics.

Exposures longer than 1/2 second need compensation, and flash exposures when the flash is at or below roughly 1/2 power also need compensation.  (Any flash power that will put the flash duration under about 1/10000 sec. will need correction.  I've been meaning to shoot a test roll to find out exactly how much compensation is required, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.)

It's probably the worst film I've ever used as far as reciprocity failure goes.  It looks great when it's properly exposed though.


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Josh66 said:


> ...........Be aware though - I also recently (well, not "recently", but I've been using it pretty slowly) bought a 100' roll of Pan F+, and it has *horrible* reciprocity characteristics...........



AFAIK, _all_ film has this property.  It's just a matter of knowing when you're getting into the 'zone' and how to correct it.


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## Josh66 (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Josh66 said:
> 
> 
> > ...........Be aware though - I also recently (well, not "recently", but I've been using it pretty slowly) bought a 100' roll of Pan F+, and it has *horrible* reciprocity characteristics...........
> ...


Yes, all film has reciprocity failure to some extent - but modern film is pretty good about it.

Pan F+ needs a LOT of correction as soon as exposure times are measured in full seconds.  Fuji Acros only needs minor correction after metered exposure times exceed 2 minutes.

There is a *huge* difference in old films like Pan F+ and modern films like Acros in this regard.  With Acros, you can forget that reciprocity failure even happens for the most part.  With Pan F+, you must ALWAYS have the corrections in the back of your mind, or you will come home with nothing.  1/8000 to 1/2 - that is your "correction free" window with Pan F+ - that is a small window.

It DOES look great when you expose it properly though - you just need to be aware that with this particular film, you need to be mindful of the exposure time.  Print out the datasheet for the film and keep it in your camera bag.  You definitely will need to refer to it for reciprocity correction.


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Josh66 said:


> ..... 1/8000 to 1/2 - that is your "correction free" window with Pan F+ - that is a small window.......



And when I shoot 99.999% from 1/500 to 1/8, I guess 99.999% of my shooting still ends up between the window panes made by _No Need to Worry, Inc_.


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## Josh66 (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Josh66 said:
> 
> 
> > ..... 1/8000 to 1/2 - that is your "correction free" window with Pan F+ - that is a small window.......
> ...


Do you always shoot 50 ISO?  Exposure times tend to be longer...

Hey man, do what you want - I'm trying to help you.  I thought this was supposed to be a community or something.


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## Derrel (Nov 28, 2014)

I have owned three different Watson bulk loaders, and used four or five different others at multiple newspapers; the ones made back in the 1980's were rock-solid bulk loaders. They work great! There's no (t much) advantage in loading more than 36 frames per roll, mainly due to the PITA aspects of negative sleeve page storing and contact printing of the negs!!! Who gives a rat's patootie if there are one or two or even three bonus frames, when all that means is a giant PITA keeping the negatives together both as a contact sheet AND as stored negs! The bigger decision is what brand and model of negative pages to buy, and how many frames per strip!!!

The next thing is keeping GRIT out of the light-trap lips on the reloadable cartridges, which is where film canisters are a great solution. If one's not careful, the light trap felt lips can pick up grit that ends up scratching the film on advance/and/or on rewinding.


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## ByronBrant (Nov 28, 2014)

Subscribed


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Derrel said:


> .......The next thing is keeping GRIT out of the light-trap lips on the reloadable cartridges, which is where film canisters are a great solution. If one's not careful, the light trap felt lips can pick up grit that ends up scratching the film on advance/and/or on rewinding.



That's why I ordered resuable ones.  Both the end caps can be removed and the light-traps spread apart enough to clean 'em out on occasion.  I've known people to try to skimp and use factory cans and they tape their loaded film onto the little bit of film left sticking out of the cans from processing.  Those can't be opened up and reassembled.


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I'd skip the bulk loader altogether.  I found it way more of a pain in the sitmedownupon than a help. ...
> ...


I didn't mean skip loading your own, just using the actual loader.  Grab a dark room, lay out your cannister, roll off ~6' (or whatever length you want) and wind it up.


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I didn't mean skip loading your own, just using the actual loader.  Grab a dark room, lay out your cannister, roll off ~6' (or whatever length you want) and wind it up.



That would be peachy-keen.


If I had a darkroom...........


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## Designer (Nov 28, 2014)

I used to load mainly short rolls of 10 to 12 frames.  Even shorter if I was trying something out.


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## limr (Nov 28, 2014)

The price of 100 feet of Tri-X just went up to $100, which means for that film, it's just as economical if not cheaper to just buy in pre-rolled bricks. But for other films, it's definitely a cheaper way to go. I'm glad I started bulk loading. And I've got 100-feet rolls of HP5 on my wish list so hopefully my family will get the hint and get me a few


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't mean skip loading your own, just using the actual loader.  Grab a dark room, lay out your cannister, roll off ~6' (or whatever length you want) and wind it up.
> ...


Bathroom, at night, lights off?


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Bathroom, at night, lights off?



Skylights.


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## ByronBrant (Nov 28, 2014)

Cover up the skylight


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Easier said than done........ when they're recessed into the ceiling.


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## limr (Nov 28, 2014)

I get that some people think a bulk loader is a hassle, but at a certain point, isn't it just as much of a hassle to only roll at night in the bathroom after blocking skylights?


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## Josh66 (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Bathroom, at night, lights off?
> ...


Better give it away.  It's clearly too much for you to handle.


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## ByronBrant (Nov 28, 2014)

You are smart & have ladders.  You can do it


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

limr said:


> I get that some people think a bulk loader is a hassle, but at a certain point, isn't it just as much of a hassle to only roll at night in the bathroom after blocking skylights?



The ONLY time you need a total darkness is to get the film into the loader.

That's.......what........ the................. dark............. bag...............is..............for.


  After that, it's all a daylight operation.


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## limr (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > I get that some people think a bulk loader is a hassle, but at a certain point, isn't it just as much of a hassle to only roll at night in the bathroom after blocking skylights?
> ...



I know that. That's why I don't understand the advice to dispose of the bulk loader and just load in the dark. It seems like without a dedicated darkroom that you can just walk into, it would be MORE hassle rather than less to go through all the trouble of darking out the bathroom and load all those rolls by hand in the dark.


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## 480sparky (Nov 28, 2014)

Apparently, this is either too simple or too complicated, or I'm using the wrong film, or I do not understand reciprocity failure..


I give up.


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## MSnowy (Nov 28, 2014)

on lighter note. I've been rolling my own for 42 years. yup Zig - Zaging for years


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## limr (Nov 28, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Apparently, this is either too simple or too complicated, or I'm using the wrong film, or I do not understand reciprocity failure..
> 
> 
> I give up.



???

For the record, I was wondering why people were telling you not to bother with a bulk loader when you were clearly excited about using the bulk loader. No where in any of my posts did I say that you were doing anything wrong. The only bit of information that I offered was that the price of 100 feet of Tri-X has very recently gone up.


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2014)

Sorry Sparky - I think the derailment was my fault.  There's nothing wrong with using bulk loaders; I personally found it was a lot quicker and easier to simply cut off a strip and load it up, but I also had a darkroom at that time.  At the end of the day, you get full points from me just based on your film choice!


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## Derrel (Nov 29, 2014)

The Watson bulk loader is the king of the American-market bulk loaders...it's fast, simple, and has been the standard bilk loader in this country for decades now. I cannot imagine why anybody would bother with any other system for bulk loading reloadable cartridges. The used to be a foreign made one that looked similar, but was larger...I want to say it was made in England, and it appeared more finely-crafted, and as I recall, it had YELLOW counter knobs, and maybe also a yellow film compartment knob and yellow wind crank knob. I've only seen a couple of those, and both times was impressed by the fit and finish--not that a prettier bulk loader adds diddly squat to the overall loading of film into cartridges.

I am shocked to read that 100-foot Tri-X rolls are now $100! Wow! I still think of those as being $19 rolls...oh well, inflation I guess; at the time, my cable TV bill was $14.95 per month,so...sounds about right.


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## PWhite214 (Nov 30, 2014)

Tri-x at Freestyle is $104.99 plus shipping, which is $7 to my house in Texas.  $118 for 18 rolls of 36 exposure, ouch.  I have been buying 20 36 exp rolls on EBAY for $95.00 shipping included.  20 Rolls Kodak Tri x Pan TX 400 36 35mm Black and White 35mm Film | eBay.

The savings on some other films is nice.  It is really nice to be able to load short rolls to test the old cameras from garage sales, flea markets ETC.  

Phil


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## limr (Nov 30, 2014)

Yeah, since the price hike (went from $75 to $100), it's not cost effective to bulk load Tri-X anymore, but most other films are still a lot cheaper in bulk rolls. HP5 is just $50-55.


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## timor (Nov 30, 2014)

480sparky said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I'd skip the bulk loader altogether.  I found it way more of a pain in the sitmedownupon than a help. ...
> ...


This is a good plan rolling only short pieces for trial purposes. But roll longer, more like 12 frames. Since, I am sure, you don't know yet, how to minimize waste in this type of bulk loader, you will loose half of your film on leaders and ends. Yes, ends. Your last three frames will be just black. But that could be avoided with little effort.
Now, from a 100' bulk roll you will get 17 full, 36 frames rolls. Not 22. 100 divided by 6 equals... ? To be more cost effective you should follow Gary in his quest to find a cheap, yet perfectly good film. Prices of Kodak went sky high, but Ilford is not that bad; $63 divided by 17 is less, than $4 against $8 for roll of Pan F. (Prices from Freestyle.)
Yet you might try things like this:
Ultrafine Xtreme Black & White Film ISO 100 - Ultrafine Xtreme Black & White Film
Price of that is slowly climbing up, but still half of Pan F. And it is not bad film with very good tonal range and small (with careful processing), sharp grain competing easily with Pan F. (However I never played with Pan F enough, my opinion bases only on Pan F developed in D76, HC110 and Beutler.) Just to say: there is still a choice.


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## timor (Nov 30, 2014)

tirediron said:


> I didn't mean skip loading your own, just using the actual loader.  Grab a dark room, lay out your cannister, roll off ~6' (or whatever length you want) and wind it up.


 This is only for very experienced hogs with nerves of steel, great spatial memory and control of movement. 
Bulk loader may potentially scratch film, but I have 7, polished them carefully and none does. With darkroom loading potential of scratches and other loses of emulsion are greater but the worst is a potential of transfer of sweat and "body oils" from fingers to emulsion. (Good luck with doing this with gloves on.)


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## gsgary (Nov 30, 2014)

Josh66 said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently, this is either too simple or too complicated, or I'm using the wrong film, or I do not understand reciprocity failure..
> ...


There's no way you can load quicker than a bulk loader, I have a darkroom and wouldn't change only time will be when I have to got my 300 feet of double x into 100's


tirediron said:


> Sorry Sparky - I think the derailment was my fault.  There's nothing wrong with using bulk loaders; I personally found it was a lot quicker and easier to simply cut off a strip and load it up, but I also had a darkroom at that time.  At the end of the day, you get full points from me just based on your film choice!


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## timor (Nov 30, 2014)

Derrel said:


> and as I recall, it had YELLOW counter knobs, and maybe also a yellow film compartment knob and yellow wind crank knob.


 The one you described is Alden 74 model
http://www.rogerandfrances.com/images/still/35 120/35 alden.jpg
Made in Cincinnati.
Almost same model made under Watson name, model 66B, no yellow anything, was made in Chicago by Burke & James.
The one Sparky has looks like Watson model 100 made by Pfaff Products. (Looks like manufacturer of sawing equipment . )
In any case this website maybe helpful :
load bulk
a page from a manual written by Roger W. Hicks, known English photographer. He is active on Rangefinders Forum.


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## PWhite214 (Nov 30, 2014)

In a dark room it is easy to eliminate the 3 inches of waste at he end of the roll.  Tape the film onto the spool, install cover, lights out, pull film to crank in the dark.  Shut the cover and turn on the light.  Be a real pain to do with a changing bag though.  I don't go to that much effort often, but do for 'short' rolls or when loading the whole bulk roll into cassettes.  

Phil


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## timor (Nov 30, 2014)

PWhite214 said:


> In a dark room it is easy to eliminate the 3 inches of waste at he end of the roll.  Tape the film onto the spool, install cover, lights out, pull film to crank in the dark.  Shut the cover and turn on the light.  Be a real pain to do with a changing bag though.  I don't go to that much effort often, but do for 'short' rolls or when loading the whole bulk roll into cassettes.
> 
> Phil


Exactly.


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## compur (Nov 30, 2014)

Freestyle lists 100-ft rolls of HP5+ and Delta 400 @ $65 and $74.

Not the same as Tri-X but very good films.

And, a number of other films at lower prices:
Black and White Film | Freestyle Photographic Supplies


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