# Sitting Fees and prints (I know it's geographical, but...)



## sxesweets (Oct 10, 2012)

What is your rough breakdown (even percent wise) of your sitting fees vs. print sales?  Do you use a local printer or internet (turn around times)?

The other thing I am wondering about is print markups? I have looked around and found some photographers who still sell prints **gasp** lol, and there is a huge variety of prices... My gut says to aim for the middle ground but I am curious to hear what people feel are the benefits of falling into the higher/ lower price ranges. Does it all come down to perceived values?


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## MLeeK (Oct 10, 2012)

This is such a loaded question that we cringe every time it is posted. There is SO MUCH that goes into pricing that it's virtually a science unto itself. 
Do a search here for pricing and you will find a lot of good information. 
Part of it has to do with having completed all of the steps of going into business and here's some guidance on that
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/266193-noobs-guide-starting-business.html


MLeeK said:


> Pricing is an INCREDIBLY complicated subject.
> How did you come up with the pricing for your video work?
> 
> I am assuming that you know how to use your cameras for photography  well, including lighting for photographs? Because the menu and  advertising shots aren't quite as simple as setting the menu on the  table and snapping a photograph. They require proper lighting, possibly a  light tent and proper use of the camera for that kind of shoot.
> ...




This is from another one of these posts:


MLeeK said:


> You are asking a question that is nearly impossible  for us to answer. There is a multitude of things that go into pricing a  photo shoot. It starts with your Cost Of Doing Business (CODB) and your  Cost Of Goods (COG) but also includes your talent and time, the price  of the IMAGE itself... It's an incredibly personal to each business  price.
> Best thing I can tell you is figure your costs to produce the image (COG  and CODB) and then your artistic fee for the image itself.
> Look for answers by Tammy on this subject. She's got some awesome well put insight on how to go about pricing that may help you further.



Manaheim had some good input to this debate with some excellent additions from some others in this post: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...32-pricing-prints-im-working-real-answer.html


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## MLeeK (Oct 10, 2012)

Oh, and it's not really geographical. It's all about VALUE and perceived value!

Pros and cons of each price range are pretty simple. If you are in the low price range you work more to make your buck. More volume to produce the same profit. 
If you are in the high end price range you work less hours/volume to make your buck. You have to find your happy place. 
Decide what you want to make per week and how many hours you want to dedicate to that. That gives you a WHOLE LOT of insight to where your pricing should fall. 
If you want to work full time and make $500 per week you can probably shoot about 15 sessions a week. If you want to work only 30 hours per week, you can probably only shoot about 10 sessions max... You have to know how many hours goes into each part of a session from booking to archive to know how many sessions you can take, but you get the idea.


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## CCericola (Oct 10, 2012)

There are some who use the sitting fee as a credit towards prints. For instance you charge XXX for a 1 hour photography session. When the proofs are ready the customer has XXX to spend. The mark up should be based on your cost of doing business so that if they only order that initial amount you are still making the profit you need from that customer. Of course that is just a safety net and the customer should be buying much more because of your great images. 

Another way is instead of giving them XXX amount to spend you give them credits to use and prints are so many credits.

Either way the customer feels as though they are not being taken advantage of.


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## KmH (Oct 10, 2012)

Some photographers charge by the pose.

Many have different pricing structures for regular portrait customers compared to specialty portrait work like for high school seniors.

Then there iare the entirely different business, marketing and pricing models used for commercial and editorial photography,


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## sxesweets (Oct 10, 2012)

I really appreciate the input. I tried very hard to ask in a way that wasn't loaded (failed miserably apparently) but by the answers I am receiving I am apparently on the right track at least. I am still curious to know, not "how to price" but what "your" costs are % based on sitting fee vs. what you actually sell in prints, either per session or monthly. As well as do you professionally prefer a local printer or do you tend to go with a "big box" online printer and what are turn around times like?

I have done the work backwards from what I want to make down to how much (hours/ sessions) I want to work. My basic plan (I am VERY open to suggestions/ critiques) was to charge "x" based on my codb and what I would like to earn I was planning on offering a print "credit" built into this price or packages of prints (ie. package A, B or C) in hopes that more prints would sell but not (honestly) expecting it, I need to work on my sales skills/ confidence and I am aware of this... Though in this "planning" the "going rate" for how much I am willing to do for the earnings I would like to make is overshooting the income potential... With a sitting fee of "X" I can make my potential income within the time frame I "want" to "work" but if I add the prints into things I am now looking at significantly overshooting my goals (and the market can currently bear this), good yes, but I am struggling with the fact that I feel as though I am ripping people off by charging even an average price (in my area) for prints when I realized what I actually pay for them... 

I had somewhat seriously considered starting to shoot professionally prior to this but in my "testing" phase I am running into a point where I am needing to make decisions to answer client questions of "how much will this cost?" before I was expecting to/ felt ready to need to.  Apparently, for me, the cart got ahead of the horse before the horse was ready for it... This is making me unsure as I don't want to price myself too low that I am just an assembly line as I consider my work as "art" but I want to be able to fill "x" hours a week with "work" so I don't want to price too high...


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## Big Mike (Oct 10, 2012)

As mentioned, there is no easy & right answer to this.  The important part is that you get paid...and to know how much you should be (or need to be) paid, you should figure out your cost of doing business...which is usually part and parcel of your total business plan.  

From there, you can structure your pricing how you see fit.  As a simple example, some will have a high sitting fee, with lower print prices while others will have a lower (or no) sitting fee and then make all their money with print sales.  Of course, it's not just 'prints' but any product derived from the photography.  
I know a photographer or two who doesn't sell prints at all...everything is a finished 'art piece'.  The lowest thing on the price list is an 8x10 photo, in a frame at matching display easel.  
Some prefer to avoid prints altogether and just sell digital files.  This is was practically unheard of, back in the days of film but has become more and more popular in the digital era.  The (sometimes) hard part to selling digital files, is convincing the client of the value.  A digital file is practically nothing, but what usually happens is that we sell the client the right to make prints...a limited copyright, and there is the value to them.  

So these days, the common debate is whether to sell files or prints/products...or both.  And how to you structure your pricing to make it attractive to clients but profitable for you.

To at least get you started, I'd suggest looking at as many other photographers as you can.  See what they are doing and how they structure things.  But always keep in mind that you really don't know how well it's working for them.  For example, I could look on Craig's List or Kijiji right now and see many, many photographers offering all sorts of packages and prices.  But I'd guess that most or all of the 'cheap ones' would go out of business if they had to sustain themselves on the prices they advertise.  They can get away with it because they have another job, or their spouse supports the family etc.  Living where we live, what with the strong economy, the market is flooded with 'part time' photographers who can afford to charge less than a full time photographer has to.  I'm one of the part time crowd but I at least try to charge a decent rate for my services.


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## Big Mike (Oct 10, 2012)

> As well as do you professionally prefer a local printer or do you tend to go with a "big box" online printer and what are turn around times like?


Most photographers will have several labs that they use, depending on the product.  We see a lot of great labs and prices on-line, but most are in the US and shipping to Canada is usually a deal breaker.  

I use Technicare, here in Edmonton.  I find them to be very good and they have a wide selection of products.  But as I talk to more and more pros around here, they have found better options for several of the products that are found at Technicare (albums etc.).
I like that they are a solid pro lab and they are local.


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## Big Mike (Oct 10, 2012)

> but I am struggling with the fact that I feel as though I am ripping people off by charging even an average price (in my area) for prints when I realized what I actually pay for them...


That's a common feeling...but we have to get away from just the cost of the ink and paper and consider how much actually goes into the cost of making a print.  An 8x10 print cost $1, but how much is your CODB in order to get to the point where you can produce a quality 8x10 photograph?


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## MLeeK (Oct 10, 2012)

sxesweets said:


> I really appreciate the input. I tried very hard to ask in a way that wasn't loaded (failed miserably apparently) but by the answers I am receiving I am apparently on the right track at least. I am still curious to know, not "how to price" but what "your" costs are % based on sitting fee vs. what you actually sell in prints, either per session or monthly. As well as do you professionally prefer a local printer or do you tend to go with a "big box" online printer and what are turn around times like?
> 
> I have done the work backwards from what I want to make down to how much (hours/ sessions) I want to work. My basic plan (I am VERY open to suggestions/ critiques) was to charge "x" based on my codb and what I would like to earn I was planning on offering a print "credit" built into this price or packages of prints (ie. package A, B or C) in hopes that more prints would sell but not (honestly) expecting it, I need to work on my sales skills/ confidence and I am aware of this... Though in this "planning" the "going rate" for how much I am willing to do for the earnings I would like to make is overshooting the income potential... With a sitting fee of "X" I can make my potential income within the time frame I "want" to "work" but if I add the prints into things I am now looking at significantly overshooting my goals (and the market can currently bear this), good yes, but I am struggling with the fact that I feel as though I am ripping people off by charging even an average price (in my area) for prints when I realized what I actually pay for them...
> 
> I had somewhat seriously considered starting to shoot professionally prior to this but in my "testing" phase I am running into a point where I am needing to make decisions to answer client questions of "how much will this cost?" before I was expecting to/ felt ready to need to.  Apparently, for me, the cart got ahead of the horse before the horse was ready for it... This is making me unsure as I don't want to price myself too low that I am just an assembly line as I consider my work as "art" but I want to be able to fill "x" hours a week with "work" so I don't want to price too high...


Overall the costs-ALL of them end up making your profit margin around 25-30% somewhere. So if the price is $10, you get about $3 of that. PPA's benchmark pinpoints that down further for brick and mortar studios running closer to 25% and home based studios/on-location being closer to 30% profit margin. 
I know that only KIND OF answers  your question... I think. I think you are asking how much of the markup is profit margin and it's a whole lot less than it appears when you look only at the cost of the print and shipping from the lab. 
I don't know if it was in the other info I gave you links to but I do know that the national average a couple of years ago was $25 for an 8x10. Or a profit margin of $6.25 to $7.50 for your time and skills. Not much when you consider the time involved to produce one 8x10. FAR less than minimum wage... in a third world country.


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## sxesweets (Oct 10, 2012)

sxesweets said:


> I really appreciate the input. I tried very hard to ask in a way that wasn't loaded (failed miserably apparently) but by the answers I am receiving I am apparently on the right track at least. I am still curious to know, not "how to price" but what "your" costs are % based on sitting fee vs. what you actually sell in prints, either per session or monthly. As well as do you professionally prefer a local printer or do you tend to go with a "big box" online printer and what are turn around times like?
> 
> I have done the work backwards from what I want to make down to how much (hours/ sessions) I want to work. My basic plan (I am VERY open to suggestions/ critiques) was to charge "x" based on my codb and what I would like to earn I was planning on offering a print "credit" built into this price or packages of prints (ie. package A, B or C) in hopes that more prints would sell but not (honestly) expecting it, I need to work on my sales skills/ confidence and I am aware of this... Though in this "planning" the "going rate" for how much I am willing to do for the earnings I would like to make is overshooting the income potential... With a sitting fee of "X" I can make my potential income within the time frame I "want" to "work" but if I add the prints into things I am now looking at significantly overshooting my goals (and the market can currently bear this), good yes, but I am struggling with the fact that I feel as though I am ripping people off by charging even an average price (in my area) for prints when I realized what I actually pay for them...
> 
> I had somewhat seriously considered starting to shoot professionally prior to this but in my "testing" phase I am running into a point where I am needing to make decisions to answer client questions of "how much will this cost?" before I was expecting to/ felt ready to need to.  Apparently, for me, the cart got ahead of the horse before the horse was ready for it... This is making me unsure as I don't want to price myself too low that I am just an assembly line as I consider my work as "art" but I want to be able to fill "x" hours a week with "work" so I don't want to price too high...



Crud, the highlighted word should have read, "sales/ income" Thanks for coming back to this MLeek that was a great explanation. Big Mike, thanks for the local info to, will be checking out Technicare for sure. I really appreciate when photographers are willing to share their knowledge because I want to produce quality product.  I am trying to find the happy medium where I'm not giving it away but charging appropriately for my experience level and taking the time to explain the value of a "great" photographer to clients. I try to make sure that they understand it's not just a case of a "big" camera and a button at home that converts to black and white... Joke is I rarely create a b&w image. I want to ensure I don't "cheapen" a full time photographers time and work by giving work away my work so that people learn to expect everything for free... It's a heck of a balancing act


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## MLeeK (Oct 10, 2012)

Personally I don't believe in justifying my price in any way and here's my reasoning: You aren't going to change someone's mind. They value what they value. If they don't value you or your work you can't talk them into it. 
If you have done your job in creating your own value, you don't have to.

HOWEVER...

If  you go  a googlin' you will find loads of great explanations to help you over that feeling. This is one of my favorites Why are Professional Photographers so expensive?
[url]http://www.professionalchildphotographer.com/information/?page_id=16
[/URL]


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## CCericola (Oct 11, 2012)

Try this link: NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator


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## KmH (Oct 11, 2012)

> but I am struggling with the fact that I feel as though I am ripping people off by charging even an average price (in my area) for prints when I realized what I actually pay for them...


The one thing the lab doesn't provide is the image that gets printed on the paper.

Like Mike alludes to, the print lab is only charging you for some paper, ink, and shipping. You then have to add to that cost your non-reimbursed business operating expenses, compensation for the time you spent learning how to do photography, and for your talent and reputation.

Note: There is *only 1 place* in the entire world where people can get photographs made by *YOU*. In fact, the product you should be marketing, promoting, and selling - is YOU.

I set my print prices according to the size of the print. As an example - an 8x10 print has 80 square inches. At a rate of say $0.50 per square inch, an 8x10 print would cost $40 (no framing). At a rate of $0.50 per square inch a 20x30 (600 square inches) would cost $300. Ideally, the biggest markup should be on the print sizes you sell the most of. Eventually, 5x7 was the smallest print I sold.
There are different types of print - Chromogenic, normal inkjet, high quality inkjet (giclée), canvas, and different papers - matte, metallic, specialty (like bamboo, or cotton rag), and other specialty substrates - like acrylic, metal, wood. Add to all that the press printed type products like coffee table books.
All of which is why many retail photographers use many different sources for prints and have different pricing structures based on products.
Services beyond prints, like framing, I usually marked up 300% (x3). If framing materials cost me $25, I charged the customer $75.00 

As mentioned a photography business owner has to know (not guess - know) what their cost-of-doing-business (CODB) and their cost-of-goods-sold (COGS) is. Note: CODB includes the salary you pay yourself.
As an example - if yearly CODB and COGS expenses are $120,000 per year, and you have 126 shooting days per year:
$120,000 divided by 126 shooting days  = $952.38 per shooting day you need as revenue *for your business to only break even*. The business still needs to make a profit if you expect to be able to replace worn/old gear, upgrade gear, cover rising costs, have funds for emergencies, pay yourself a bonus, etc.

You might wonder how I came up with 126 shooting days. The retail photography business is somewhat seasonal, time has to be allocated for ongoing education, industry conventions, vacation, sick days, etc, so I assumed 42 weeks a year a retail photographer would be able to shoot, and that an average of 3 shooting days per week is reasonable.


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## Big Mike (Oct 11, 2012)

> I set my print prices according to the size of the print. As an example - an 8x10 print has 80 square inches. At a rate of say $0.50 per square inch, an 8x10 print would cost $40 (no framing). At a rate of $0.50 per square inch a 20x30 (600 square inches) would cost $300. Ideally, the biggest markup should be on the print sizes you sell the most of. Eventually, 5x7 was the smallest print I sold.


I think that is a pretty universal approach (charging according to the size of the print)...but just to play devil's advocate here, the expenses other than COGS, are pretty much the same no matter what the print size is.  It doesn't cost me 4 times as much to create a 16x20 than it does to create an 8x10 print.  The only difference is the lab cost and maybe some additional processing time to optimize it for a larger print. 
It's a great system for us, because larger prints have an exponentially higher profit margin, but at what point (if ever) does the equation break down?  Does the price of larger prints start to get too high, and then limit sales?

And what about multiple prints of the same image?  It doesn't cost anymore (besides COGS) to have an image printed multiple times.  
Again, great for us to charge 'full price' for each print but a customer may raise an eyebrow at the economics of it.  

But on the other side of that, larger prints require extra measures like mounting (I have anything over 8x10 put onto foam board or something) and the shipping & handling with large prints is much more as well.  I've sold prints that were hard to fit into my car nicely.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 11, 2012)

im not sure how canada works. but in the us each state has its own varying degrees of sales tax. for instance for me. i don't have to charge sales tax for my sitting fee. whereas with prints i have to charge sales tax. so for me it works out better to have a higher sitting fee and lower print costs. this limits the amount of sales tax i have to pay on. but everyone who has answered you so far as way more experience then I do.


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## MLeeK (Oct 11, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> im not sure how canada works. but in the us each state has its own varying degrees of sales tax. for instance for me. i don't have to charge sales tax for my sitting fee. whereas with prints i have to charge sales tax. so for me it works out better to have a higher sitting fee and lower print costs. this limits the amount of sales tax i have to pay on. but everyone who has answered you so far as way more experience then I do.


For me it's semi-the same. HOWEVER if the sitting results in the sale of a print, then it becomes taxable. Some states also consider the digital files not taxable if they aren't put on a disc, but electronically (email or download) given to the client. 
I'd imagine Canada is a nightmare with their taxes!


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## sxesweets (Oct 11, 2012)

You guys are amazing. Thank you SO much. This has become a very informative thread, I really appreciate everyone taking the time to break this information down for me. I have a lot to look at and think about. 

Did anyone ever find that at some point their photography work/ buisness took on a life of it's own growth wise?


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > im not sure how canada works. but in the us each state has its own varying degrees of sales tax. for instance for me. i don't have to charge sales tax for my sitting fee. whereas with prints i have to charge sales tax. so for me it works out better to have a higher sitting fee and lower print costs. this limits the amount of sales tax i have to pay on. but everyone who has answered you so far as way more experience then I do.
> ...



now im trying to remember how the wording was on prints from sales and digital prints, looks like im going to go thru this again this weekend to make sure im not missing anything.


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## KmH (Oct 11, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> > I set my print prices according to the size of the print. As an example - an 8x10 print has 80 square inches. At a rate of say $0.50 per square inch, an 8x10 print would cost $40 (no framing). At a rate of $0.50 per square inch a 20x30 (600 square inches) would cost $300. Ideally, the biggest markup should be on the print sizes you sell the most of. Eventually, 5x7 was the smallest print I sold.
> 
> 
> I think that is a pretty universal approach (charging according to the size of the print)...but just to play devil's advocate here, the expenses other than COGS, are pretty much the same no matter what the print size is.  It doesn't cost me 4 times as much to create a 16x20 than it does to create an 8x10 print.  The only difference is the lab cost and maybe some additional processing time to optimize it for a larger print.
> ...


Print pricing for desktop size prints gets marked up more than wall size prints, because the desktop sized prints have a much lower COGS than the wall size prints. An 8x10 can usually be printed for about $2. So charging $40 for an 8x10 based on image area is a 2000% markup. The 20x30 costs about $25 to be printed, and at $300 based on image area the markup is only 1200%. A 24x36 print is about $45, and at $432 based on image area the markup is only 960%
So the charge by area pricing method automatically reduces the profit margin based on print size. 

The print labs give quantity discounts, and it is certainly appropriate to do the same for retail photography customers.

Shipping is part of the COGS and is accounted for in the markup. Things like mounting and framing are additional products that get sold, however while they are usually sold at fairly low markups, they still have to be sold for more than they cost..


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## Canuk (Oct 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > im not sure how canada works. but in the us each state has its own varying degrees of sales tax. for instance for me. i don't have to charge sales tax for my sitting fee. whereas with prints i have to charge sales tax. so for me it works out better to have a higher sitting fee and lower print costs. this limits the amount of sales tax i have to pay on. but everyone who has answered you so far as way more experience then I do.
> ...



Tax is actually very simple in Alberta. There is no provincial sales tax. Federal Good and Services Tax (gst) is taxable on any luxury item or service, photo's and photography fees would be included in this. Business taxes are a little trickier, but that's what accountants and book keepers are for.


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