# What to expect from the Canon EOS 60D?



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

I've just posted a review (opinion) why I think that Canon 60D won't be such a great upgrade over the Canon 50D DSLR.

As far as I concern, the fact that Canon has added the 7D into the EOS series, it certainly narrows the upgrade options for the Canon 50D. So me might expect a new upgrade with minor changes, but nothing that will be a huge leap over the current Canon 50D DSLR. 

I guess that many Canon 50D owners will be quite upset with the fact that the gap between the Canon 50D and the Canon 5D Mark II has been narrowed significantly after the announcement of the Canon 7D in Pre-IFA 2009. Let's hope that I am wrong, and that we will do see some significant improvements that will convince 50D owners to upgrade to the Canon 60D (whatever Canon will decide to call it).


----------



## usayit (Jul 24, 2010)

If you are too busy looking forward then you won't enjoy the now.  How can such an article even be remotely reasonable when the camera isn't even out yet?

Photographer not the camera...


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

It is not actually about the Camera itself, but the optional upgrade path that is available for Canon to make. If the Canon 7D wasn't there, there was enough room for considerably amount of improvement over the 50D. One thing I know for sure, is that Canon will not make the 50D better then the 7D. But if the Canon 7D wasn't there, we will probably have seen a 7D like camera with a cheaper price I think. Again, this is just my opinion. I personally waiting for a new camera before making any decision. And if it is so close ot be announced, I guess waiting a little bit more won't hurt.

I also agree with you that the time to take pictures is now, and there is no reason to wait "too much".


----------



## bentcountershaft (Jul 24, 2010)

They may just scrap the xxD line since they have the 7D.  If it were up to me the only improvement of the 50D I'd care to see on a 60D would be the 7D's ISO range.  Do that and leave off the video to save money and I'll get one.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

I don't think that the video feature makes the camera more expensive. I think it will be there in future models by default. Have you seen any real difference in prices where the video feature first came out?

I think that the Canon 60D will probably have a new battery and grip (Canon loves to make money on accessories), a more advanced focusing system and I think that we will see increase in the ISO range as well. Regarding the Canon 60D video feature, I wouldn't mind having it and shoot some high quality product reviews on my blog (even though it can be done with consumer level cameras as well, with pretty good results).


----------



## usayit (Jul 24, 2010)

Don't complain about too many choices...

My choice of drug (Leica RF) has one choice and only one choice in their lineup.   Its an expensive one too...


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

Leica are as good as it gets I suppose. BTW, my other debate was whether I should buy the Sigma SD15 or the upcoming Canon 60D. When you said Leica, at the same time you said "highest quality" (at least from what I know). 

Before I dive into more details, I just want to tell you that I have no DSLR camera right now, and I intend to purchase one till next month. I used to shoot with Canon 400D and have 2 'L' lenses (17-40mm F4L and 70-200mm F4L). I sold those lenses and the 400D because I needed more money for a business that I was starting at that time. So now I am at the same situation when I was before, just more experienced I guess.

The Canon 60D/50D fits my budget perfectly, considering that I intend to buy 2 lenses (wideangle and telephoto zoom). The Sigma SD15 was also a great contender, because it has to Foveon sensor, which produce some amazingly sharp images. I haven't find many sample pictured of the SD15 (cause its new I guess), so I have decided to dig a little deeper and found  pictures at Chinese and Japanese sites. The sharpness and dynamic range are just something to admire.

Anyways, I am in the middle of making a decision, whether I should buy the *Sigma SD15 or the Canon 60D*.  I love shooting landscape photography pictures and I intend to open an online website for that specific niche as well. So I wanted to hear you opinion about the upcoming Canon 60D, who knows, maybe I will just grab the SD15 next week.

I am eager to shoot pictures and because it is the end of the Summer, I wanted to buy a camera until next month. 

when I have my Smugmug account ready, I will share some photographs with you (not here I know, on the galleries forum).

Wanna hear something funny: I've just looked at bentcountershaft avatar and saw the "I spend too much of my life on TPF!" - SO I was interested to know what TPF means, so I went to Google to search for it - didn't find any relevant info. Until I came back here and finally realized that it is shortcut for Digital Photography Forum -- Silly me


----------



## Josh66 (Jul 24, 2010)

Mishel said:


> I think that the Canon 60D will probably have a new battery and grip (Canon loves to make money on accessories),[...]



Of course it will.  

At least the grips can take AA batteries, so you don't necessarily have to buy a bunch of new proprietary batteries.  Still gotta buy a new grip though, that's pretty much a given.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

What do you mean "at least"? -- Do you mean that the 50D grip doesn't support AA batteries ?


----------



## Derrel (Jul 24, 2010)

Mishel,
  You must truly be an open-minded soul if you are even considering the Sigma SD15 as an actual purchasing choice. I commend you for your open-mindedness. But, even if the Canon design team gets drunk on sake and submits its 60D plans, I am pretty sure the Canon camera will be a better all-around system than anything Sigma can come up with. But as to the 60D...I think that pony is played out...the D60 (remember all six month of its life?),10D,20D,30D,40D,50D has been basically the SAME BASIC camera,iterated rapidly. I do not think they at Canon are anxious to cap off the series with a D60 at the start,and a 60D at the end of the same old same old camera for years on end...I think the 50D is the last of the line, and that Canon will take a new naming direction. The D60-10D-20D-30D-40D-50D is now six bodies old....I am omitting the original d-slr effort from Canon, the D30...which make seven in a row along the same basic lines.

Canon needs to get some better, smarter, color-aware light metering in its prosumer body,and arguable they have finally achieved color-aware light metering in the 7D. Canon needs wider-area AF coverage, which they do NOT have in the 7D. Canon needs a wireless flash commander system, which the 7D has. All in all, I think Canon will soon be abandoning the XXD line and its behind the competition aspects of color blind metering, and no flash commander and moving toward the newer, higher-technology 7D features in light metering and flash command. I think rewarming the 50D to a seventh iteration of the same-old same-old would be like microwaving leftover dinner for two nights in a row...a letdown on night one,and totally unpalatable on night two.

Canon has always been willing to move forward, even if it means screwing over current owners...and alienating current owners...Canon will move forward whenever it needs to,and it seems that Canon's innovation stalled very,very badly in the 40D and 50D, and influential people like Michael Reichmann started complaining that Canon was failing to innovate. And they did get stagnant, and Nikon made huge inroads. Nikon became #1 in slr sales in Japan in 2009, and Canon lost its top dog spot. Canon's 7D and its new technologies are a direction I think Canon will go with its prosumer $1500 body class, so the 50D will, In think, be the end of that line of cameras...it's shopworn and the same old $hi+, model after model.


----------



## Josh66 (Jul 24, 2010)

Mishel said:


> What do you mean "at least"? -- Do you mean that the 50D grip doesn't support AA batteries ?



I mean - at least they (all) take AA batteries, which are commonly available everywhere.  So - there's no need to buy the overpriced proprietary batteries that every new camera uses.  'At least' there is a cheap alternative.

(You still have to buy the new, not cheap, battery grip though...)


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

I have two questions, and sorry for my newbie questions:

1) What is "color-aware light metering"? (I will be a little be smarter after this one).:blushing:

2) Derrel, which photography gear you shoot with? - After this answer, I am eager to know you preferences.

And about Derrel slogan "It's about time people started taking photography seriously, and treating it as a hobby." - Exactly what I think!

And Derrel, about the Sigma SD15. I have been digging around many Sigma users' websites and find only few images, nothing to be really inspired about. I have decided to dig a little bit more and spent two hours trying to find sample images taken with the Sigma SD15 in foreign (Japanese and Chinese) website, and finally came with a few websites with truly amazing Sigma SD15 photos that shows the high dynamic range that the camera has. I am doing a lots of research before deciding on my new equipment.
If you can be kind and *evaluate* the photographs yourself, maybe you have a different opinion on the SD15, just maybe? (please, I really need a professional opinion -- What can I do, I am not ).

I also checked you profile page and it seems that you shoot both with Nikon and Canon gear. So you opinion will be unbiased.

OOPS, I almost forgot to ask about Sigma lenses optical quality. I know that it is off-topic maybe, but I really try to make a decision (before Summer ends).

Thanks.


----------



## KmH (Jul 24, 2010)

The metering sytem in all Nikon dSLR cameras can see in color: 1,005-pixel *RGB* sensor 3D Color Matrix Metering II

Even the entry-level Nikon's: *420 pixel RGB* sensor 3D Color Matrix Metering. 


Except the 7D and the 1D MKIV, all the other Canon dSLR's metering systems only see black and white.
From Canon USA's advertising for the 7D: "New iFCL Metering with 63-zone dual-layer metering system uses both focus and color information to provide accurate exposure..." In the specs they list: 63-zone SPC TTL metering. I don't know what SPC means.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

It seems like a very huge advantage that the Nikon has over Canon in that respect. I wonder why Canon is not improving it own metering system??
But what is the difference in the real world?

I had a chance to talk Lean Evans on another forum (a Sigma tester - at least that what she told me) and she told me that the Sigma SD15 performs extremely well, and it is a measure improvement over the previous version. After you answer about the metering system (thanks), I want to know what type of metering the Sigma SD15 uses.

Can you please post a link to a page that explains in in-depth details about those different metering system (something simple to read please, not math equations and stuff). I would also like to hear opinion from photographers who have shot both with the Nikon and Canon gear and have their own opinion about the metering system.

I am going to find some information about metering on Google. But please share your knowledge. (finally I have found a forum with professional photographers, not kiddy forum as found on my mother tongue language :er: -- Also really excited to meet other photographers abroad | too emotional I know).


----------



## Canosonic (Jul 24, 2010)

why not an affordable full frame?
nah, just kidding, that'll never happen, though I'd appreciate that.
Well, I don't care about video, maybe....
Digic V?
Built in printer? Sandwich maker?


----------



## Mishel (Jul 24, 2010)

I love the pace of learning new stuff! - So another question:
What is DIGIC V does to the camera? - I know it is the image processing power (CPU) behind the camera, but that's all. Is there a difference between Nikon and Canon in this respect?

BTW: I would love to have video capabilities in the Canon 60D, because as far as I know, the Canon EOS 50D doesn't have video. I also want to add that I want to shoot landscape and cityscape pictures for my new upcoming website, so video will be cool, especially HD videos, but what is most important is the stills capabilities. Other thing (Sorry for digging), I have seen Nikon images and compared them to Canon, and is seems that Nikon has more vivid warmer colors, that somehow looks better for landscape photography. The Yellows and the Greens really emphasize the image and gives it a boost and it is more beautiful to watch.

I don't know if its matters or not (buying the Canon 60D or another camera), but I intend to shoot a lot of pictures and probably need to batch process them before uploading them to my website. So is it just a software problem, or having a Canon or Nikon camera can make a difference in this respect.

If I have some English mistakes, feel free to correct me 

BTW
Regarding the Sigma SD15, look at this image (not the best one I know, but not mine either). The green and blue and the overall colors are so natural, I mean, really so natural. My problem is that if a color is over saturated, even a bit, I feel it. The SD15 really produce amazingly real and lifelike colors. Decisions, Decision, where does it end.


----------



## j-digg (Jul 24, 2010)

I wont be looking to buy the 60d.. but it will be interesting to see what they do with it... Theyve already made things pretty close between the T2i and the 7d given the big price differences.. Itd be sorta funny to see them raise the MP count yet again  haha.


----------



## Overread (Jul 24, 2010)

usayit said:


> Don't complain about too many choices...
> 
> My choice of drug (Leica RF) has one choice and only one choice in their lineup. Its an expensive one too...


 

True but it can also have its downsides. At the moment the Canon line is pretty simple - you go up in price you go up in features within each sensor size grouping. 
A 550D is lesser than the 7D which is lesser than the 1DM3 (crop even though its only 1.3 crop)
A 5DM2 is lesser than the err wait still waiting for canon fullframe 1Dversion. 

But my point is that there is no split market within each crop group which in my mind is a good thing. A 60D makes little sense unless its greater than a 50D and lesser than a 7D (the 7D is a bit too young for an upgrade at the moment I feel). 
I don't want to see the market starting to split within the same price bands - so that you end up with two or three similar priced bodies with the same crop and key featuers but with different focuses - because then you end up with a camera that can do sports (great AFF) but not low light (high usable ISOs) for example. 
To my mind the power of the DSLR body is to be versatile not to be specialist and I'd hate to see the Canon line moving toward more specialised and limited market bodies


----------



## Josh66 (Jul 24, 2010)

Mishel said:


> Other thing (Sorry for digging), I have seen Nikon images and compared them to Canon, and is seems that Nikon has more vivid warmer colors, that somehow looks better for landscape photography.



That basically means nothing without knowing how they were processed.

You could have crappy PP from one camera, and awesome PP from the other.

Unless you knew which was which (or what was done to each picture), you can't really compare them.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 24, 2010)

Hey Mishel,
I just got done downloading and looking at the following samples from the Sigma SD15 you referred us to.
The goose in sunlight...whites are totally blown, and the detail is inadequate. Just not enough resolution for 2010.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_15_ex.jpg
ocean sunrise--not enough "real detail"

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_16_ex.jpg
building facade..ehh...shadow detail is okay,but not bitingly sharp..

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_17_ex.jpg
silhouette...these look pretty on-screen, but do not show much detail,or much info.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_18_ex.jpg
silhouette-sky looks a tad noisy


ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_19_ex.jpg
dog laying down,panting...inadequate resolution of fine hair detail,low contrast, but a soft color palette. On a close-up tele shot like this, there ought to be at least SOME bitingly-sharp details....I do not see any though.

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_20_ex.jpg
another silhouette over ocean-like water...not enough real detail in the water. Shot at ISO 100, f/8 at 1/250 second at 34mm w 18-50 2.8~4.5 DC OS HSM Sigma lens

ITmediaF/dc/articles/1007/22/l_hi_sd15_21_ex.jpg
all-white horse,shot in RAW at 42mm at f/5.6 at 1/400 second, ISO 100, same 18-50 2.8~4.5 lens, but look at the awful edge performance of the lens at the bottom of the frame--that looks very,very poor to me,optically. The subject is dramatic and well-lighted, but the "real detail" seems missing,compared to 12 MP Nikon camera results...the sensor in the SD-15 is simply NOT resolving high amounts of detail..it looks like roughly a decent 6MP camera's performance to me.

I dunno...what the SD15 is showing could have been done with any number of other cameras. I do not think the detail the SD15 shows in the above samples is particularly good for the year 2010.

As you can see, I have some Canon gear, a 20D,a 5D, a Rebel I never use but got cheap, and a bunch of Nikon lenses and shoot mainly the Nikon D2x as my Nikon of current choice. I have some fantastic Nikon lenses, and will shoot them on the Canon 5D body whenever I need to. I've become a big believer in the Full Frame body of around 12 or 13 megapixels as the best all-around, practical size, for modern photography uses. (Nikon D3,D3s,D700,Canon 5D Classic) To me, the best all-around compromises are full frame size sensor, and the 12 to 12.8 MP cameras...the need for more and more megapixels is being driven by the marketing departments; 12 MP is ample, and better than 35mm slide film was,and it demands a lot out of lenses on APS-C, 15 to 18 MP on 1.6x is too small a sensor and too tiny a pixel count for the lenses that really exist now at the current state of affairs.

Nikon has some newer, better lenses now than Canon does. Fact. Canon is in the midst of a lens line refresh, which Nikon began back in 2004, as their bodies lagged. Canon and Nikon are going tit-for-tat on lens refreshes, but Canon still cannot make a superb wide zoom,and by superb I mean **superb**....Canon's 16-35-L Mk II is still not up to snuff compared to the 14-24...the camera makers are bringing out new macro lenses as fast as they can (new Nikon 60mm G, new Nikon 80mm G, new 105 VR Micro-Nikkor), and Canon's got the new 100mm-L macro and I think a new 60mm as well.

I think the Canon 1.6x sensor size at 17.8 MP is past the point of diminishing returns for **total system performance**, but the BODY of the 7D is the direction Canon needs to go....they need to move the 5D-II upward, toward the Nikon D700 capabilities in terms of focusing system,and in color-aware metering so the camera can be used by an increasingly less-trained bunch of shooters who are moving into the field and who want color-aware metering and better flash metering than Canon has had up to this point.

I think maybe Canon will instead of a 60D, go with A) a 7D-type subsystem feature set thrown into a 6-D. Get it? 60D? Six-dee? A FF camera with the 5D's MP count, but the better handling of the 7D, with pro-speed AF, pro-speed firing, an basically a 5D on steroids and a direct head-to-head NIkon D700 killer.

MANY people are deluding themselves on the need for more and more megapixels. Total system performance depends on sensor size, pixel well size, electronic signal processing hardware in the camera, and lens performance; the bigger sensors, like 12-13MP FF do great,as the 5D and D3 and D700 have shown. The higher-density sensors like the 7D and 1D Mark IV are noisier than the larger cameras, especially at the really high ISO values. The bigger sensors of ALL sizes are "easier on the lens" and demand less lens performance to get an equal,or better result, because the sensor is 2.7x larger than a 1.6x sensor. The Sigma has a 2.0x FOV factor and a teeny sensor. On the web, or even 11x13 inkjet or 13x19 inkjet, 12MP is all my printer can really handle...so 10 or 12 MP on 1.5x,1.6x,or FF is ample for me,and for a lot of people.

Or maybe Canon will go with Plan B): whatever they think the market will buy like crazy. They had a big hit with the 10D, and the 20D was absolute gravy for Canon. The 5D, despite its fantastic sensor in Mark I,and its killer sensor and video in Mark II, has NOT been a good seller: it is slightly too expensive. A low-cost FF would probably sell better than anything they could bring out--but that could cannibalize 1Ds and 5D-II sales.


----------



## table1349 (Jul 24, 2010)

What 60D?  Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?


----------



## Derrel (Jul 24, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> What 60D?  Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?



In the Internet Age, that cart-before-the-horse mentality is what fuels sales of new cameras!!! Now that enthusiasts,professionals, and sales channel people can communicate in real-time with people all over the world, it's possible for people to get all amped up about a new product, well before it hits the shelves, or is even announced.

Today's "pro-sumer" is a huge sales component: he (almost always a 'he' ) gets his credit card ready before the announcement, and often sells off his perfectly good camera BEFORE the next model hits, then buys the new model ASAP, and he tells all his on-line buddies about the new model as soon as he gets it...

Cart before the horse has become the new modus operandi in the serious enthusiast/pro-sumer segment of the market. Camera makers absolutely love it! 

I'm tired of buying new bodies...but there are millions who are just waiting, dying to get their hands on what I call "the next greatest thing". I love to buy those guys' used lenses when they dump their perfectly good lenses so that they can raise cash for their next greatest thing.


----------



## gsgary (Jul 24, 2010)

gryphonslair99 said:


> What 60D?  Considering that Canon is very tight lipped about their product line in development, aren't you getting the cart before the horse?



:thumbup: how do we know it will even be called a 60D, the most important thing is behind the veiwfinder


----------



## sovietdoc (Jul 24, 2010)

I seriously doubt 60D will be full frame.  In fact, I can pretty much say it wont.  FF is reserved by manufacturers for a crowd that can shell out $2500 and it will stay this way for some time, like a plasma tv five years ago.  In the future there will be a time when APS-C's will be no longer needed as everything will be able to do FF and crop at the same time, but just not yet. 


Out of sheer speculation, 60D will definitely have updated movie mode, maybe even better than 7D, and probably the same MP count as the 7D.  7D sits higher, so it must be able to do something 60d wont be able to.  With that said, I am thinking maybe less fps shooting and half of the focusing points.  

I think that if 5D mk2 cost around 2 grand, it would be the best price/performance camera for a non pro photographer, but who is taking it seriously.  $2500 is a tad too steep.  Also, because you need L glass to shoot on it, as cheap $300 lens don't seem to cut the picture quality.  mk2 with a single L lens will run at $3500 which is serious money to spend for a photographer who doesn't get paid for his/her work.  Not to mention that in 2 years it's outdated...


----------



## Mishel (Jul 25, 2010)

Wow Derrel, thanks so much! -- I don't have time to read it all because I am at work, but when I get home, I will surely spend time reading your comments. :thumbup:


----------



## Canosonic (Jul 25, 2010)

sovietdoc said:


> I seriously doubt 60D will be full frame.  In fact, I can pretty much say it wont.  FF is reserved by manufacturers for a crowd that can shell out $2500 and it will stay this way for some time, like a plasma tv five years ago.  In the future there will be a time when APS-C's will be no longer needed as everything will be able to do FF and crop at the same time, but just not yet.
> 
> 
> Out of sheer speculation, 60D will definitely have updated movie mode, maybe even better than 7D, and probably the same MP count as the 7D.  7D sits higher, so it must be able to do something 60d wont be able to.  With that said, I am thinking maybe less fps shooting and half of the focusing points.
> ...



yeah, but that's a shame.
The only way out I see, is to get the MKI with second hand L's.

But really. I need a new camera. I have a 400D and what I want is for the camera to counterweight my 10-20 and telephoto lens.
Video? I say get a normal video camera and instead give us f.e. selectable focus points (I don't know how it's called, but like in Nikons to aim focus, not only 9 spots).
More pixels? The pixel war should end by now. 15 MP - that's it for CMOS! Look at g11, they lowered the pixels of g10 and got a better camera!
I want improved PP from the 60D or 6D or whatever. Noise handling, Color processing. 
Maybe inventing a new sensor would be nice. Like adding another color sensor, yellow or something. And 3D photography? But even if they do make this, they won't put it into the 60D.

Anyway, your photos are made not by your camera, but by YOU with your camera.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 25, 2010)

Finally back from work  (a long day..). Derrel, first, Thanks so much for evaluating the pics, really many many thanks :hugs:. I have been going through you comments, and now I see exactly the problems with each photo. There is a difference when a professional photographer looks at images and how amateur photographer (yeh, that's me ) looks at them. I was a Canon guy not a long time ago (even tough that my father always told me to ONLY buy Nikon gear).

I agree with your evaluation that Nikon has better optical quality, no doubt about it. I have been looking through pbase and read some reviews on Nikon lenses and on Canon lenses, giving more emphasize on wideangle lenses, and in that segment, Nikon has the upper hand.

Not a long time ago, Canon was a leader in terms of sensor technology achievement, and that's because they manufacture the their CMOS sensors themselves, and so they can better optimize it for their specific cameras (like Apple does with its own hardware). But it seems that Nikon has been doing a lot of research and investing many funds to work with Sony on new sensors that can overcome some noise problem (as we have seen on in the Nikon D200 days). So when this obstacle has been demolished, Nikon has been improving ever since. The Nikon D90 is a fantastic DSLR, with great features, built quality and overall great image quality and less noise (of course need a good lens in front).

I think that even when the Canon 60D will come out, or any other DSLR that will replace the Canon 50D, I think they will have problems competing against the "older" Nikon D90, and I didn't eve mention the replacement of the Nikon D90 (how will they call it, I mean, they already had a D100??).

Regarding the "not enough resolution for 2010" (the Sigma SD15), I think that 4MP will be enough for me, because I don't intend to print the pictures, they are mostly for the web, even though I intend to put highres pictures online. But the Foveon X3 sensor is already 5 years old (happy birthday Foveon ) and I know that if we had seen a Nikon with 4MP, we have probably had gotten a noise free images in ISO 1600.

I think that regarding the sharpness of the SD15, nothing comes close to it regarding details. It really captures every pixel tack sharp.

I also want to mention that I had the Canon 400D and also have bought the Canon 50mm F1.4, and I had some really bad focusing problem with it. I actually never had those problems with my Brother's Nikon DSLR. 

As much as I was interested in the Sigma SD15 or the Canon 60D, Nikon really seems a better option right now. There are some magnifisant wide-angle lenses in the Nikkor series, and I am sure that going for the Nikon D90 and 1 (expensive) Nikkor wideangle lenses will probably be a smart buy. But one thing I want for my website, and this is videos. I don't want to buy two separate cameras, and the HD video really can help getting some great videos for my website.

Again, many many thanks for your time, I really appreciate it A LOT!

BTW: I would give 1 vote for the company who would make *custom DSLRs*, so I can get a 6MP Nikon D300s, with large pixels, that would be cool!

I have Finally found myself a second home (TPF)


----------



## Mishel (Jul 25, 2010)

And Derrel, can you comment also on some photos I've taken with my 400D (when I had it). You comment will be very appreciated! - gallery here


----------



## Overread (Jul 25, 2010)

Mishel have a look at the RED camera system - a fully cusomisable camera setup!
RED / Index

All modular!


----------



## Josh66 (Jul 25, 2010)

Overread said:


> Mishel have a look at the RED camera system - a fully cusomisable camera setup!
> RED / Index
> 
> All modular!



The pictures on the opening page of the website make it look more like a rifle than a camera.


----------



## Overread (Jul 25, 2010)

yah but its still the ultimate "boys toy" for a camera enthusiast- all those components to swap and chance - all those neat little parts!! Course you'd have to be pretty well setup to afford one of those!


----------



## Josh66 (Jul 25, 2010)

Overread said:


> yah but its still the ultimate "boys toy" for a camera enthusiast- all those components to swap and chance - all those neat little parts!! Course you'd have to be pretty well setup to afford one of those!



LOL, it even _sounds_ more like a rifle than a camera.

It looks & sounds like a new AR waiting to be tricked out, lol.  Guns are probably even worse than cameras, as far as accessories go.  

Pretty much any hobby is like that though - you can spend as much on it as you can afford to.  There's always some new piece of gear that you 'need', the cost of which 'other' people just can't comprehend.


----------



## Overread (Jul 25, 2010)

yah I remember when InTempus was around and showing off his guntoys and accessories! I could certainly get into collecting that stuff - or medival and fantasy swords (course it would start with long pointy things and end with armour, bows and more long pointy things!)


----------



## cfusionpm (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm jumping in a bit late here, but I just wanted to make an observation on the original post: 



Mishel said:


> I've just posted a review (opinion) why I think that Canon 60D won't be such a great upgrade over the Canon 50D DSLR.
> 
> As far as I concern, the fact that Canon has added the 7D into the EOS series, it certainly narrows the upgrade options for the Canon 50D. So me might expect a new upgrade with minor changes, but nothing that will be a huge leap over the current Canon 50D DSLR.
> 
> I guess that many Canon 50D owners will be quite upset with the fact that the gap between the Canon 50D and the Canon 5D Mark II has been narrowed significantly after the announcement of the Canon 7D in Pre-IFA 2009. Let's hope that I am wrong, and that we will do see some significant improvements that will convince 50D owners to upgrade to the Canon 60D (whatever Canon will decide to call it).


 
As someone who owns both a 50D and 7D, I think the upgrade path is perfect as it is. To me, the 5DII is NOT an upgrade. It has much worse AF performance and much slower burst rate. It signifies a _branch_ in the EOS product line stemming into high end, high res, studio production work, which leads from the 5D mkII to the 1Ds mkIII.

The 7D presents itself as a step in the speed and sports direction: high speed AF, high speed burst rate, big image buffer, etc. That path leads from the 7D to the 1D mkIV.







With that said, the entire basis for argument on the 60D as an interruption in the upgrade path is flawed. Since there are no concrete facts about the 60D anyway though, argument about what it may or may not be is more or less moot. It will likely serve as a replacement for the 50D in the sense that it's better than the Rebel (xxxD series) but not as good as the single-digit (xD series) cameras; which would make perfect sense considering their naming structure.  The best business plans try not to have self-competing products within their own lines.  It would be reasonable to assume that it will have added features and new tricks, but also have some limitations (speed, buffer, ISO, whatever) preventing it from being "better" than its single-digit cousins.

If you are under some impression that the 60D will have a 7D-performance for a 50D-price, you're only going to be disappointed. If you see it as "a better camera than the 50D and cheaper than a 7D," it will probably be a great camera.

Peace.


----------



## table1349 (Jul 25, 2010)




----------



## Mishel (Jul 27, 2010)

cfusionpm, I agree with your evaluation, but one thing is weird. Do you think that what changes the path is the fact that one camera has faster continuous shooting specification then there other?


----------



## cfusionpm (Jul 27, 2010)

It's not just continuous shooting speed, but also differences in AF performance, resolution, and crop sensor vs full frame.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 27, 2010)

I just got back to this thread; Mishel's article on digitalphotograpohywriter dot com blog..he might be right--Canon might have killed off the 10D-20D-30D-40D-50D line, by its own hand...it's hard to say definitively where Canon will go. Every few years, the big camera company product matrix sees a significant realignment of its offerings. Camera companies go in new directions every few generations. Canon and Nikon have lately been competing not quite head-to-head...they leapfrog one another, and/or offer different capability sets.

The D300 was clobbering the 50D when the 50D was the top semi-pro body Canon had in APS-C...the Canon 7D was developed after an almost 2-year period when the 50D was just not doing well against a more-expensive, better D300...the 7D is Canon's first new metering system and first new entry into TTL remote flash commander in-camera, and uses the same type of transmissive viewfinder screen Nikon put into the original D300, plus the 7D has the best video in the APS-C class...

I think Canon needs to move "up-market", into a new camera that diverges from the long-running 10D to 50D series, offering more high-end features in an enthusiast-class body, like Nikon did with the D200 and D300,and like Canon did with the 7D. The 50D's successor model will likely be competing with the Nikon D90's follow-up model. If Nikon migrates the 51-point,wide-field, capable AF module of the D300 downward, into the D90's replacement, Canon will seriously regret not having moved "up-market" with the 50D's replacement model.

Canon could be poised on the brink of a new era...or they could roll out yet-another-same-old-same-old with a 60D, having gone D30-D60-10D-20D-30D-40D-50D...but I really,really do not think Canon will churn out an EIGHTH iteration of the same old thing...that just doesn't seem like what they will do at this point in time...to me at least.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 27, 2010)

I Derrel and welcome back. I have been investing my time to learn more about photography (of course need field experience, after I buy my new DSLR). I have spent hours and hours getting to learn more about geotagging photos, because I need it for my online application for the outdoor photography website that I intend to come up with in the next month or so. If you are interested you can read my Geotagging photos guide that covers GPS receivers and software for geotagging photographs (I can get recommendations and edit it if needed). 

It is again off topic (or maybe not ), but I also wanted to know (an couldn't find an answer for that for my guide), but does Canon has a specific external GPS receiver like the Nikon has (and if you had experience with it, is it accurate?). Who known, maybe the 60D will have it. 

Many people use it to organize their photo offline and online. It is like doing a filter by location. I know that I will certainty need a GPS device for my application, which uses Google API to present my photos for my (upcoming) website visitors, and I want them to be able to look up photographs based on locations. After all, it is a website dedicated for outdoor photography and I will need for that purpose.

Also, if that not to much to ask, I want a recommendation on Nikon wideangle lenses (except the 14-24mm, which is too expensive for my budget and doesn't take filters).

oh, and Derrel, soon I will show you something very cool, I have made my own design concept Canon EVIL cameras, by editing the 50D image. But I don't know if I can use Canon logo on the camera (because of copyrights, so I am waiting for more info), but it is very cool. probably my next post. If you know anything regarding copyrights, please contact me with private message. Thanks.

And one more thing (I know, I dig again), but what is "My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit" next to my posts number??

(I need an avatar urgently... mmm.. I will come up with something cool I guess)

Best Regards.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 27, 2010)

Nikon 16-35 f/4 VR is optically pretty good,and accepts filters. Price is right.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 27, 2010)

I've read a review on Ken Rockwell blog and it say that the 16-35mm VR is the sharpest wide zoom he ever tested. I will continue reading more about it. Seems like the ultimate lens for my needs (If I choose Nikon at the end). Derrel, is photography your job, do you work as a photographer?


----------



## cfusionpm (Jul 27, 2010)

Mishel said:


> I've read a review on Ken Rockwell blog and it say that the 16-35mm VR is the sharpest wide zoom he ever tested.


Ken Rockwell is an idiot. 


OK, maybe that's a bit generalized.... Consider him the "Stephen Colbert" of camera info.  He has some decent core ideas, but skews them radically to be either funny or ironic and becomes more of a parody than any real source for good information.  His site can be very misleading and give a lot of bad information if not cross-referenced with some kind of "real" review site.

Just a heads-up.


----------



## Mishel (Jul 27, 2010)

I love taking part in the photography blog sphere and I thought that Ken Rockwell is one of the leaders in this field. I actually don't know anything about him but he is very we ll known and appreciated on the web. Maybe that's my problem because I just give to much credit for people that seems professional, at least from what I read on the web. But again, I prefer readin reviews on dpreview, with lab tests and useful and professional info, better than ken's.


----------



## cfusionpm (Jul 27, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Canon could be poised on the brink of a new era...or they could roll out yet-another-same-old-same-old with a 60D, having gone D30-D60-10D-20D-30D-40D-50D...but I really,really do not think Canon will churn out an EIGHTH iteration of the same old thing...that just doesn't seem like what they will do at this point in time...to me at least.


I don't think that is a strong argument.  There are eight generations of Honda Civic with a 9th on the way; ten generations of Toyota Corolla.  Cars exist both above (Accord/Camry) and below (Fit/Yaris) those, and all increment with advancing technology (while remaining in their vehicle class).  If an item in a line of products continues to sell well, there's no reason to cut it off.  In a new product cuts into the sales of other products, things will then be shifted around.  But since the xxD line has always been popular, they will keep making them until people stop buying them. That's business at its simplest.  If they release this 60D and it tanks, maybe they would shake things up and move things around, but only time (and sales) will tell.


----------



## AlexL (Jul 28, 2010)

expect greatness 

I wish it can correct CA in camera!


----------



## Canosonic (Jul 29, 2010)

@Derrel
no more X0D?? Geez, I guess I'll be stuck with my 400D for life, like "4life"!
Or.... just sell all my gear and get a Nikon.
But really,  60D is going to put my photography-motivation-ride in a swamp!
But it might look like that. A X0D hasn't appeared in a while. But what is Canon going to say to people like me? They can't afford cutting away their midrange costumers. Then the high end models will reach Leica prices and Canon is going to be nor a sandwich, nor a beer! I guess they're up to something, like a maybe a new model line? X0Ds ? 
I really hope they don't let me down.

And about the Canon/Nikon competition, I think Nikon is in the lead today. At least in the model range where I set my eyes on.

As for the cut-off, maybe they're thinking that people like me will be happy with the XX0Ds and the pro's should stay with the XD's?
Like so many people out of the Mid-class need that Corolla and Civic, but how many people are expert/amateur-hobbyists? Maybe they want to return that Canon-ball-size hole between the pro and low-level-amateur market? Pros will pay more money, like they don't care because they're like.... pros....and amateurs will pay more money cause...... whatever.  
But I don't imagine how this will get through with let alone Sony and 4/3s but with Nikon on the side.


----------



## gsgary (Jul 29, 2010)

The 60D will be a full frame point and shoot


----------



## bigtwinky (Jul 29, 2010)

gsgary said:


> The 60D will be a full frame point and shoot


 
Will it have smile detection and snap when it sees a smile?
Will it have ugly detection and refuse to snap if someone is ugly?


----------



## Derrel (Jul 29, 2010)

cfusionpm said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Canon could be poised on the brink of a new era...or they could roll out yet-another-same-old-same-old with a 60D, having gone D30-D60-10D-20D-30D-40D-50D...but I really,really do not think Canon will churn out an EIGHTH iteration of the same old thing...that just doesn't seem like what they will do at this point in time...to me at least.
> ...




The 50D was a sales FLOP for Canon, Matt. The 20D was a mega-hit, and the 40D was a mega-hit for Canon....the 30D was warmed-over and no real advancements were made...the 40D was a slight advance from the 30D,and the 40D sold well, but the 50D was a sales dog...

People who buy that class of camera want innovation, not mere iteration...

the 7D has killed the market for the 50D...the 7D has made the 50D obsolete and stale by comparison... horses and horse saddles went through thousands of generations...then the horseless carriage made them irrelevant...muzzle-loading weapons were pretty common from 1429 until 1865...then self-contained cartridges were introduced...the trick is to know when to abandon the old,shopworn technologies and products and shift the consumers onto a NEW line, so that they will "want" the newer product...the problem with the XXD series has been that it is now played out...the 50D proved that to Canon...it did not sell well,especially against the Nikon D300, which trounced it pretty handily.

50D versus D300, and 7D versus D300s---many people expect that Canon will re-align its product matrix to reflect the new realities in the three closely-spaced market segments of enthusiast, pro-sumer, and semi-pro bodies. The "pro-sumer" segment you show in your diagram is actually kind of a misnomer; a pro-sumer is a consumer who upgrades, immediately, when a new model hits the street. The "pro-sumer" is a techno-geek, and a follower...the 7D is not a pro-sumer model, but a semi-pro body...the pro-sumer model is the 50D, and the pro-sumers, the automatic-line-up-to-buy crowd is where the 10d-20D-30D-40D-50D crowd has been spending its dinero...except these "pro-sumers" or professional consumers rejected the 50D...it did not have the new bells and whistles it needed to create another round of automatic updating. See, that's the problem Canon is facing: worldwide economies everywhere are hurting, and the pro-sumers have stopped automatically upgrading over the last couple of years...

As I see it, your chart Matt, is not quite th actual market; the "enthusiast" camera is the hobbyist's camerfa, and that guy/gal is often satisfied for many years with a good camera, like a 40D or a Nikon D90. The pro-sumer is a constant upgrader--or at least he USED to be! The pro-sumer is the techno-geek,always demanding the best technology, and the 7D has tat, the 50D does not. The semi-pro shooter needs pro-like features, but is not interested in updating all the time. The pro need the flagship cameras.

The way I see it, the XXD series has run its course, and like NIkon, Canon desperately needs to migrate better light metering, better flash control, and better autofocus downward, into the XXD territory, or be seen as a non-innovative company that just re-hashes the same old $h!+, generation after generation...and that's why Canon lost is lead as top-selling d-slr camera in Japan to NIKON last year...Canon's been riding the same horse too long...


----------



## gsgary (Jul 29, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > The 60D will be a full frame point and shoot
> ...



It will have bull**** detection quite a bit detected in here, can't see the point talking about a camera the does not exist


----------



## Derrel (Jul 29, 2010)

gsgary said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > gsgary said:
> ...



People have been talking about God, Gods, Goddesses, and religion for centuries gary...as well as aliens, space ships, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and TV characters that "do not exist"...or have you missed out on that??


----------



## gsgary (Jul 29, 2010)

Derrel said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > bigtwinky said:
> ...




And i don't believe in him, done nothing for me, only going to church on Saturday because i have to go to a wedding


----------



## Dao (Jul 29, 2010)

I think it will be nice if the new 60D has a feature not just facial detection, but phone number detection.  Once you find a person, take a photo of that person and in the ExIF file, you will see his/her phone number!


----------



## Canosonic (Jul 29, 2010)

Dao said:


> I think it will be nice if the new 60D has a feature not just facial detection, but phone number detection.  Once you find a person, take a photo of that person and in the ExIF file, you will see his/her phone number!



and a pick up line generator! :mrgreen:


----------



## cfusionpm (Jul 29, 2010)

Derrel said:


> The 50D was a sales FLOP for Canon, Matt. The 20D was a mega-hit, and the 40D was a mega-hit for Canon....the 30D was warmed-over and no real advancements were made...the 40D was a slight advance from the 30D,and the 40D sold well, but the 50D was a sales dog...


That may be the case, but having spent a good little bit searching the interwebs, I have not come up with any hard sales numbers for any of this. Do you have a link or source of actual sales numbers? Or is this purely anecdotal?



> the 7D has killed the market for the 50D...the 7D has made the 50D obsolete and stale by comparison...


The 7D is also the entire price of a D3000 with kit lens more expensive than the 50D, and was released over a year later as a camera in a higher class. In every respects it _should_ make the 50D look stale. But I personally don't believe it "killed" the market for the 50D. The mere existance of a 60D seems to agree with that.



> the trick is to know when to abandon the old,shopworn technologies and products and shift the consumers onto a NEW line, so that they will "want" the newer product...the problem with the XXD series has been that it is now played out...


So what evidence about the new 60D supports that there's no shift, change, or update to the line? Since there's no concrete specs about it yet, what are you basing this on?



> the 50D proved that to Canon...it did not sell well,especially against the Nikon D300, which trounced it pretty handily.


Probably because it was never meant to directly compete with the D300. It was released a year after the D300, so its not like R&D or time was the reason. They could have competed with it (like they are now with the 7D) but chose rather to sandwich it above the D90 and below the D300.



> many people expect that Canon will re-align its product matrix to reflect the new realities in the three closely-spaced market segments of enthusiast, pro-sumer, and semi-pro bodies. The "pro-sumer" segment you show in your diagram is actually kind of a misnomer; a pro-sumer is a consumer who upgrades, immediately, when a new model hits the street. The "pro-sumer" is a techno-geek, and a follower...the 7D is not a pro-sumer model, but a semi-pro body...the pro-sumer model is the 50D, and the pro-sumers, the automatic-line-up-to-buy crowd is where the 10d-20D-30D-40D-50D crowd has been spending its dinero...except these "pro-sumers" or professional consumers rejected the 50D...it did not have the new bells and whistles it needed to create another round of automatic updating. See, that's the problem Canon is facing: worldwide economies everywhere are hurting, and the pro-sumers have stopped automatically upgrading over the last couple of years...


Here's where you're just arguing semantics (ones that aren't even rigidly defined to begin with). Perhaps you see it differently, but I consider "pro-sumer" and "semi-pro" one and the same. The name "semi-pro" imples that it is not wholely pro, but contains elements or features shared with pro level products. "Pro-sumer" implies it is a "semi-pro" or "near-pro" product targeted to (and bought by) consumers or non-professionals.



> As I see it, your chart Matt, is not quite th actual market; the "enthusiast" camera is the hobbyist's camerfa, and that guy/gal is often satisfied for many years with a good camera, like a 40D or a Nikon D90. The pro-sumer is a constant upgrader--or at least he USED to be! The pro-sumer is the techno-geek,always demanding the best technology, and the 7D has tat, the 50D does not. The semi-pro shooter needs pro-like features, but is not interested in updating all the time. The pro need the flagship cameras.


I'm curious why you seem to agree with my chart (in case you missed it, the 50D is under "enthusiast" and the 7D is under "pro-sumer"). What "pro-sumer" are you refering to? And how could they "used to be" when the 7D is Canon's first low-price-point pro-sumer body? Unless somehow the "enthusiast" and "prosumer" were actually the _same_ market (50D) which branched off when a _real_ pro-sumer camera came along (7D).
I'd like to hear your rationale behind this; especially considering your personal stance on buying camera bodies (a 2004 D2x and 2005 5D, right?). 



> The way I see it, the XXD series has run its course, and like NIkon, Canon desperately needs to migrate better light metering, better flash control, and better autofocus downward, into the XXD territory, or be seen as a non-innovative company that just re-hashes the same old $h!+, generation after generation.


You seem to propose Canon leaves a massive gap in their lineup; to go straight from Rebel to 7D. Or you seem to suggest that Canon should be putting high end features into cheap bodies; somehow without inflating costs. And all of this is based on absolutely no confirmed information about the upcoming camera in said line. 

I'm having a hard time grasping at what kind of point you are trying to make besides "hey Canon, be like Nikon!" which is both tiring and old.


----------



## usayit (Jul 29, 2010)

Let me the first to ask...

What do you think the 70D will be like?

Can't wait!


----------



## Mishel (Jul 29, 2010)

I actually don't think that semi-pro and pro photographers are interested in CA correction in camera, I mean that this is not and important factor. Having features that are really useful for getting the best shot at the scene, these can be welcomed. I actually love editing photos in Lightroom, so even if the 60D will have such feature, this is not the reason I will buy it.

70D? - LOL, I think that we won't see a 70D, or maybe we will, I don't know. I just hope that the 60D will be worth the wait. When do you think Canon will announce their new cameras, Photokina?


----------



## mishele (Jul 29, 2010)

Mishel said:


> I actually don't think that semi-pro and pro photographers are interested in CA correction in camera, I mean that this is not and important factor. Having features that are really useful for getting the best shot at the scene, these can be welcomed. I actually love editing photos in Lightroom, so even if the 60D will have such feature, this is not the reason I will buy it.
> 
> 70D? - LOL, I think that we won't see a 70D, or maybe we will, I don't know. I just hope that the 60D will be worth the wait. When do you think Canon will announce their new cameras, Photokina?




He you took my name....lol How rude!! :hug::


----------



## Mishel (Jul 31, 2010)

Sorry for taking your name . My first name is Idan and my middle name is Mishel, so I needed to decide which one to use, so I throw a coin and Mishel it was (blame the coin). You can call me either way. Any news about the 60D yet? - I have heard that the Nikon D95 is coming, seems that Nikon rumors are ahead of Canon's


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 2, 2010)

Mishel said:


> Any news about the 60D yet?


CanonRumors is fairly sure it will feature a flip down LCD screen and will probably begin availability in September or October.  Nothing official yet though.


----------



## Canosonic (Aug 3, 2010)

cfusionpm said:


> Mishel said:
> 
> 
> > Any news about the 60D yet?
> ...


flip down LCD doesn't seem Canon-like


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 3, 2010)

Yeah I thought it was strange myself, but I'll totally admit that I wish I had it sometimes when I'm shooting events within crowds. I'm only about 5'8"so I'll hold the camera up to get the shot. Live view helps a lot but it'd be nice to have alternate viewing angles though. But I read the D5000 has issues with the flip screen when used with a battery grip, and considering I have a grip on all my bodies, I'd be apprehensive about including it.


----------



## Dao (Aug 4, 2010)

Quoted from Canonrumors



> *&#8230;. A Canon rep said
> The August 11 announcement date is brought up again. This time from a Canon Rep in the southern hemisphere.*
> _&#8220;The 50D and SX1 replacements will be announced next week.&#8221; _



So I assume that is going to be the 60D.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 11, 2010)

CR seems to have what appears to be pretty reliable pics of the 60D:













Canon EOS 60D Pictures? Canon Rumors


----------



## j-digg (Aug 12, 2010)

Yep.. CR claims 18 mp, articulating screen and "optimized video" whatever that means... more fps options? better af?


----------



## cassio (Aug 12, 2010)

cfusionpm said:


> CR seems to have what appears to be pretty reliable pics of the 60D:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't look like it's a flip down screen.  So that wouldn't be a prob with having battery grips.

Replying to the original post, any upgrade to the next generation of model is not always advisable.  There are times when the upgrades are just very small increments.

But there are exceptions.  As mentioned, there are great upgrades like the 20D and 40D, or maybe even the 550D following the xxxD series.  Who knows what the 60D is really packing?  We won't know until we really see it.

Talking about business, I think Canon needed to release the 50D.  We cannot deny that there are "new" users out there.  Having something "newer" than the one or two year old 40D is still good business.  I don't know if the 50D was truly a flop, but it could have been used to flank Nikon's releases.

Just my opinion..


----------



## AlexL (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't see the joystick to pick focus point in this leaked photo. Or is it all covered?


----------



## TiCoyote (Aug 12, 2010)

It looks like a tall body.  FF?


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 12, 2010)

As a former Nikon shooter I would agree the metering is better on the Nikon system atl east compared to what my 50D does now. I really see this though as a small thing as in most situations the 50D does just fine and for my major stuff I ALWAYS use my Sekonic 758DR which surpasses anything any camera has in there cameras.


----------



## Big Mike (Aug 12, 2010)

Going back to the original post in this thread...


> why I think that Canon 60D won't be such a great upgrade over the Canon 50D DSLR.



Looking back, the 'next' camera in this line has rarely been a great upgrade over the former model.  I'd grant that the 20D was a good deal better than the 10D, but the 30D was only a face-lift and not worth upgrading from the 20D.  The 40D was a decent upgrade over the 30D, but mostly because the 30D was really just a 20D, and thus several years old by then.  Most internet gum flappers were disappointed with the 40D because (like always) they expected a lot more and for less money.  The 50D wasn't much of an upgrade over the 40D...which seams to fit the pattern.
*HOWEVER*....you need to consider that the 'target market' for the new model, isn't really owners of the previous model....it's owners of past models or lower (Rebel) models.  For example, the 50D would be a tremendous upgrade from someone who owns a 20D or 30D.  
So to extrapolate this...the 60D (if that's what is coming) would probably be a nice upgrade for people with a 20D, 30D or maybe even 40D....but maybe not worth the cost for someone who already has a 50D.  
And because the internet reviewers will all be comparing the new model to the previous one, they will be disappointed that's it's not a 1Ds at the price of a Rebel.  (and that's something I can predict with a lot more certainty than trying to guess what Canon will do next).  



I'm very interested to see what Canon comes up with next.  I'm due for an upgrade from my 20Ds.  Do I want the new 60D, if it comes out?...or do I look at a 7D? or do I take the nice step up to full frame? (and have to buy new lenses).  Heck, I'd be happy if they just gave us a 50D at a lower price.


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 12, 2010)

It should be better than the 7D in most respects. Besides its about time for the 7D to be replaced want to talk about names. 8D, 9D, 10D oops got that already. 

It's anyone's guess as to what comes next for both camera lines so will just have to wait for the 60D and whatever if anything replaces the 7D. Though I suspect we will be seeing the 5D Mark III before the next 7D.

For a personal prediction, FF would not surprise me, in fact I would be surprised if one of these D lines don't go that way.


----------



## Overread (Aug 12, 2010)

I will be very very surprised if its better than the 7D in a substantial way. At the moment I'm thinking that it will either be a model sitting between 50D and 7D - ie a new slightly cheaper 1.6crop camera body to try and corner more of the market - or it will be a similar model with some nifty new features like the new screen as well as other small refinements. 

This is unless canon is going to drop the 7D line and just threw that camera body in to upstage Nikon after the 50D got upstaged by Nikon - and thus the 60D (And then 70, 80 etc...) will return to the fore as the leading midrange camera bodies.


----------



## TiCoyote (Aug 13, 2010)

I just read that it will have a plastic body to reduce the price $200-300.  Seems like a pity.  I think the best thing about the xxD series is the magnesium body.  That's a big reason why I bought the 50D.


----------



## usayit (Aug 13, 2010)

Big Mike said:


> I'm very interested to see what Canon comes up with next.  I'm due for an upgrade from my 20Ds.  Do I want the new 60D, if it comes out?...or do I look at a 7D? or do I take the nice step up to full frame? (and have to buy new lenses).  Heck, I'd be happy if they just gave us a 50D at a lower price.



I "almost" never buy new on expensive items.  I prefer to be on the better side of the depreciation equation.  If you've been happy with the 20D this long, I say get the 50D used when the 60D comes out.


----------



## j-digg (Aug 13, 2010)

Idahophoto said:


> It should be better than the 7D in most respects. Besides its about time for the 7D to be replaced want to talk about names.


 
It shouldnt really be better than the 7d, its still a xxD model. About time for the 7d to be replaced? :S it hasnt even been out for a year yet has it? Also once the 7d is upgraded, they will probably take the Mark "x" route similar to the 5d, 1d and 1ds lines.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 14, 2010)

AlexL said:


> I don't see the joystick to pick focus point in this leaked photo. Or is it all covered?


 
It looks like the control dial has two parts, an inner and outer.  Maybe that replaces the little joystick?  I rather preferred that little nub for quick AF point selection...  But I guess we'll know for sure when official announcements have been made.


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 14, 2010)

I was excited but seems like its going to be another toy camera. No metal body is a bad sign. Looks like ill be upgrading to D7 or 5D II after all


----------



## Josh66 (Aug 14, 2010)

Idahophoto said:


> I was excited but seems like its going to be another toy camera. No metal body is a bad sign. Looks like ill be upgrading to D7 or 5D II after all


Sadly, I think only the very top of the line has a metal body these days...


----------



## Derrel (Aug 14, 2010)

cfusionpm said:


> AlexL said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see the joystick to pick focus point in this leaked photo. Or is it all covered?
> ...



That "little nub" is Canon's attempt to imitate Nikon's huge, positive, foolproof 4-way controller...it doesn't work nearly as well however because it's a pencil eraser-sized control Canon figured would be great to use with one's thumb! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...but seriously, Canon needs to improve "that little nub" to make the control actually usable when one is wearing gloves, or one's hands are cold,and also to just make it of a size that is appropriate for such a critical control. I use "that little nub" myself as the way I assign focus points on my two main Canons, and find it pretty lame compared to the original control that the "other company" invented.

it would be really great if Canon could figure out a way to engineer a user-control interface that works better than, "that little nub",especially for such a critical feature as assigning the active AF point.


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 14, 2010)

Derrel said:


> cfusionpm said:
> 
> 
> > AlexL said:
> ...



Preach on, I agree totally! I like the Nikon controller WAY better myself.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 14, 2010)

Derrel said:


> it would be really great if Canon could figure out a way to engineer a user-control interface that works better than, "that little nub",especially for such a critical feature as assigning the active AF point.


Uh... it acts like a joystick and selecting autofocus points is really quick and easy... I even just tested it with a pair of work gloves I had laying around with no drop in speed or accuracy. Maybe it's because I grew up with videogames, but I find the joystick-like control very easy and intuitive to use. Plus, if you don't want to use the joystick, you could just as easily use the top or rear control dial to change AF points. But you knew this already, right? Being a Canon expert and all? What's cool about the 7D is that the two dials control horizontal and verticle selection of points, which is nice compared to rotating around the selection points, and would likely make it into this new body too. 

I understand that you hate everything about Canon's designs though, so I should have expected such a comment. There's just no pleasing you!


----------



## Taylor510ce (Aug 15, 2010)

Man, does Derrel's love and devotion to nikon EVER waiver? :lmao:.

I am late to the party, but I think that the 60D ( or whatever they decide to call it ) will have most if not all of the following..

-refined autofocus, most likely more points and zones like the 7d, but maybe not as many.

- the color metering that the 7D introduced

- Wireless speedlite control

- plastic body

- I think it will have the flip out screen

I have my doubts that there will be a 60D though. It may be a revamped 7D to replace it (8D or 9D? ) You figure, there has always been a cheap and expensive version of each camera. Look at the T1i and the 50D, same inner workings, aside from a few things like burst speed and bodies. Well now you have the T2i and the 7D that are both 18 megapixel and were both announced not too far apart. Since the camera companies exploit the megapixel game, it sounds like a case of spreading it too thin if they have a 3rd camera also at the 18 megapixal resolution. It wouldn't make sense. So I vote for a replacement to the 7D with maybe an articulating screen and a next generation processor/sensor.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 15, 2010)

cfusionpm said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > it would be really great if Canon could figure out a way to engineer a user-control interface that works better than, "that little nub",especially for such a critical feature as assigning the active AF point.
> ...



Yes, I am familiar with using the giant wheel on the back as an AF selection method. The Canon approach,using that tiny nub, is an effort to imitate a better system from another manufacturer. Just like Canon adopted the AF ON button that Nikon had generations before...again, imitation is a sincere form of flattery. But no, I do not hate everything about Canon's designs...you,being a one-brand Canon fanboy can't seem to get it through your little mind that the ergonomics advantages Nikons has had for decades are slowly being adopted by Canon whenever Canon can figure out a way around Nikon's intellectual property. Why do I own three Canon bodies, a bunch of Canon lenses, and why do I shoot all my serious work on a Canon 5D??? What is that "dooshing sound" I hear coming from your end out there in California?

Being a life-long videogamer, your fanboy status is pretty understandable: the fanboy culture is heavily rooted in video games. I grew up playing with cameras, not videogames, so I have a vastly different, broader experience set than a guy in  his 20's or early 30's. Here's a story you ought to read before "bragging" about being a video gamer. It's from this very week, and is entitled The Psychology of Fanboyism  - Plugged In - Yahoo! Games.
The Psychology of Fanboyism - Plugged In - Yahoo! Games

Buy yeah Matty, if that "little nub" as you call it was such a great idea, why is Canon ditching it?? I mean, Canon is the greatest camera system ever invented in the history of videogames....er...photocopiers...errr printers...err FAX machines....err CAMERAS, right? Canon must be the be-all-end-all of all the camera systems you have used, which is....one system...   Right, praise-on Canon-man!!! But, while you're at it, please tell us WHY Canon would be eliminating, "that little nub" as you referred to it. Mmmkay? YOU are the one who brought up the subject. If the "little nub" as you called it is going away, please explain WHY they would eliminate such a great control interface? Ooops, your fanboy logic is showing now...


----------



## Fedaykin (Aug 15, 2010)

Derrel said:


> cfusionpm said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



Thank you Derrel, that was mighty entertaining to read. Refreshing to read on an online forum.


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 15, 2010)

Different people like different things. Some thing I dislike about Canon and there are some I think they have done better than others with. You or anyone else may agree with my choices, (which I wont go into) or disagree, but that's fine. This is the old Nintendo vs Sega, Ford Vs Chevy, Star Wars vs Star Trek. I just love doing photography for photography not a brand name. When I see someones work I am looking at the pic not what system they used. Once we get past all that Photography becomes fun, which is what it and even  videogames are suppose to be. How about we fight over Tele vs wide angle that might be a better discussion.


----------



## Taylor510ce (Aug 15, 2010)

How about we stay on the topic of the 60d and not hijack the OPs thread. I was just in best buy trying the 7D. Sales guy said he heard the 60D or whatever it will be called will be a FF sensor.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 15, 2010)

Alright Derrel, I'll go ahead and dispel this "fanboyism" with a perfect analogy from the videogame world. Careful, the following gets pretty nerdy!

Disregarding the Wii, as it's more a "family entertainment device" compared to a real "gaming console," it leaves us with Sony's PS3 and Microsoft's XBOX 360. Now, both consoles (PS3/360) offer very similar performance but approach delivery in separate ways. Both offer high def visuals, both have online abilities, and both have full GUIs when not in a game to navigate various non-game features available. Each has their own exclusive features or game titles, but there is massive overlap between most third party, multi-platform titles. Choices generally boil down to which controller or which online system you would want to use. I generally like the layout and feel of the 360 controller a lot better, and their online service is arguably better. The Dual Shock 3 is a re-re-reiteration of a controller designed 15 years ago for the original Playstation, and their lackluster online service (for games) leaves much to be desired, but it has cool social features with its Home software. I actually own all three current gen consoles (360, PS3, Wii), though my 360 undoubtebly gets the most play time. 

So in a nutshell, both big consoles are about the same other than a few design choice differences and handful of exclusive game titles. Now, I think the relevance to Canon/Nikon is pretty clear in this analogy (except that I personally don't own one). If it's not painfully apparent, perhaps a revisit to the high school SAT is in order! 

I have nothing against Nikon and actually think quite highly of their high end cameras (I would readily buy a D700 or D3s over a 5DII and 1DIV if I wasn't already invested in Canon). So... I'm not sure who the fanboy is here...  It sure doesn't sound like me!

You tout that you have three Canon bodies; yes, a garbage old Rebel XT, an antiquated 20D, and a 5D. And I'm guessing the reason you use the 5D is because it's the only full frame digital you own.  Judging from your stance on the importance of full frame sensors, the 5D is the only option that you own. That D2x sounds really nice for a crop (I know how much you love crops!) but I'm curious why you never just bought a D700 and called it a day? 



Idahophoto said:


> Different people like different things. Some thing I dislike about Canon and there are some I think they have done better than others with. You or anyone else may agree with my choices, (which I wont go into) or disagree, but that's fine. This is the old Nintendo vs Sega, Ford Vs Chevy, Star Wars vs Star Trek. I just love doing photography for photography not a brand name. When I see someones work I am looking at the pic not what system they used. Once we get past all that Photography becomes fun, which is what it and even videogames are suppose to be.


 
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I'm right with ya. Don't quite know why Derrel has such an axe to grind with me... Just cuz I pointed out an unnecessary Canon/Nikon flame-bait comment for being just that? Who knows!



Taylor510ce said:


> How about we stay on the topic of the 60d and not hijack the OPs thread. I was just in best buy trying the 7D. Sales guy said he heard the 60D or whatever it will be called will be a FF sensor.


 
There have been no concrete details about the "60D" yet. There will be official announcements "soon" but according to canonrumors.com, there may be a separate camera they're referring to. CR reported that Canon is going to reveal three big new DSLRs very soon. So people are assuming that's referring to the 1Ds mkIV, 60D, and this new low MP full frame camera. But who knows, maybe its a 5D mkIII? It could be anything. We won't know for sure until Canon tells us. From my experience, most Best Buy employees don't know much more than what's on their own website (unless of course they have access to incoming shipments of new pruducts), but since nothing has been officially anounced, they're no different than reading rumor blogs.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 15, 2010)

Here's a comparison I'm sure you'll enjoy...comparing the ESO 7D and its video capabilities againats those of the $50 Barbie Video Girl camera

Canon 7D vs. Barbie Video Girl on Vimeo

and of course, the now-classic comparison of the Canon 7D versus the iPhone 4 and its video capabilities

iPhone 4 as good as the 7D? No, but it's amazing for what it is. on Vimeo


----------



## Taylor510ce (Aug 15, 2010)

Yeah, I know to take what the best buy employee says with a grain of salt, but maybe he does know something about shipments coming in, who knows. I agree its all speculation at this point. But if there is a chance of a more reasonably priced full frame canon coming out, I think I am going to hold out on buying a 7D atleast until after September when the announcement is supposed to come out.


----------



## Taylor510ce (Aug 15, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Here's a comparison I'm sure you'll enjoy...comparing the ESO 7D and its video capabilities againats those of the $50 Barbie Video Girl camera
> 
> Canon 7D vs. Barbie Video Girl on Vimeo
> 
> ...


 

:chatty:


----------



## usayit (Aug 15, 2010)

Taylor510ce said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a comparison I'm sure you'll enjoy...comparing the ESO 7D and its video capabilities againats those of the $50 Barbie Video Girl camera
> ...




Also.. Looks like GH1 with Hacked firmware is also showing up the Canon 7d's video capabilities.  

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1BMugSQl1I[/ame]

Before you toss this up to the wind (along with those Canon vs Nikon snafu's), listen to the guy talking on the video.  He explains why the Canon 7d's video "looks" less quality than the Panasonic GH1.  Something to do with "downsampling" from the sensor... the samples are pretty convincing.

On the other hand....  its with hack'd firmware to open up some locked capabilities.  He also mentions other "issues" with the GH1 hack'd firmware, which is always to be expected.


----------



## Idahophoto (Aug 15, 2010)

I have not heard anything about the 60D being full frame. According to Canon 60D  Canon Rumors it's a plastic bodied 18MP camera that should retail for about 1,200 US dollars. (100-200 more than the T2I) Putting it in a totally different class market than the 7D.
If it turned out to be FF it would sure be interesting but don't think it would be a pro model which is what I would be after ie the plastic body. I real let down drop the video put on the magnesium body and maybe I would be interstead, but so far I am getting more turned off by it. I'll probably go with the 7D or another 50D as there prices are dropping making them a better and better deal.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 15, 2010)

Looking at the photos of the alleged 60D at Canonrumors Canon 60D  Canon Rumors

it appears that the 60D will have a swing-out LCD screen, like the Nikon D5000...and it looks like at least 4 control buttons have been removed from the back,left side of the camera, which makes me think the 60D is a move down-market toward the D5000, and away from the D30-D60-10D-20D-30D-40D-50D lineage from which it has been born.

Eliminating buttons and moving more toward a menu-driven system, or hiding the buttons behind the fold-out LCD screen, is a move that would make sense if the D60 were aimed more toward the high-end consumer market, with the 7D being the semi-pro or serious enthusiast's camera, at a higher price point. The Nikon D90 has been a thorn in Canon 's side in this camera category--moving the D60 "down-market" to compete with the D90 and "D95" price point would make a lot of sense, since the 7D has sewed up a solid position in the high-end APS-C segment. The flip-out screen might really be of interest to people who are coming to the camera with video-shooting aspirations, and so it'd be a design tradeoff to eliminate, or re-position, four back of camera controls in order to get the video screen to flip down.

It looks like the 60D shown in the Canonrumors shot has 13 individual exposure modes, plus C and Bulb, on a top-left dial, which again, sort of speaks of a departure toward the customer who is coming from a different background than the traditional XXD series' seven previous incarnations. The single biggest area of improvement ought to be in the small "diamond" AF focus point pattern, but it will knowing Canon, probably be more of a video-centric improvement that rises to the top of the list. Video is "hot" right now.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 15, 2010)

Idahophoto said:


> but so far I am getting more turned off by it. I'll probably go with the 7D or another 50D as there prices are dropping making them a better and better deal.


I think that's the point.  They don't want to canibalize their own camera line by making it "almost like a 7D, but 500$ cheaper."  Then there'd be no reason to buy the 7D!


----------



## Taylor510ce (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't think its going to be a $1200 18MP camera. I think it will definately have to have quite a huge difference to distinguish it. ( maybe a better processor? ) My reason for thinking this again is the "Megapixel Game." Canon is smart. They know that most people think that megapixels are what matter, and they exploit that. So having three 18MP cameras will infact cannibalize their high end 7D. Everyone will think, why bother, I can get the T2i, or at the VERY most get the 60D, because whats the diff, I will have 18megapixels to brag to my non-photographer pals about and save a chunk of change. Its pushing it enough to haqve 2 cameras that have the same resolution but when your have one small consumer body and one big hunky pro body, it is an easy thing to explain. I think if the 60D is what they claim it will be, it will not be a hugely saleable product for Canon, because they will have no logical way to make a consumer think that they NEED this product instead of either the T2i or the 7D. So whatever this new camera is, its going to have to have a pretty big "game changer" feature, or its going to have to be on a whole different level in terms of abilities. One or the other.


----------



## cfusionpm (Aug 25, 2010)

Looks like more details leaked out:

Canon EOS 60D Specs [CR2.5] Canon Rumors


> - 18 MP. 17.9 effective
> - APS-C
> - 100-6400 (Hi: 12800)
> - 1/250 flash sync
> ...


----------



## icassell (Aug 25, 2010)

It's no longer a rumor:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : EOS 60D


----------



## sovietdoc (Aug 26, 2010)

well, now that 60d is out we can see it's kinda pointless.  same sensor as 7d, same movie mode and metering, so basically its a rebel with more expensive body and more accurate metering mode, for those that dont shoot in manual.

I was hoping it would have digic v


----------



## cassio (Aug 26, 2010)

Here's my take on the Canon 60D vs Canon 7D discussion.

Canon 7D still wins for me.  I really didn't know why some other people had the impression that the 60D would actually replace the 7D.


----------



## Canosonic (Aug 26, 2010)

9 af points???
:banghead:
SDHC????!!!!!
:banghead:
DIGIC IV?????!!!!
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------

