# The next generation will never see it



## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

Due to global warming we will lose and are losing many plants, insects and animal. How does it make you feel that you as a photographer will be the last to see and be able to document a lot of these organisms ever again? And how do you feel to the loss of all of this natural irreplaceable treasure we stand to irrevocably lose?







I personally feel a great pain for all the suffering my living standards have caused other organisms.


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## bribrius (May 1, 2014)

honestly, sometimes I think about it, then I remember natural selection evolution and think about when I read Darwin.
its all meant to change. im more concerned with photographing old buildings and old photographs of times lost.
we go through another ice age the majority of it is dead anyway. Cant stop fate. photograph what you can, when you can. Make that record. That record is VERY important.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

bribrius said:


> honestly, sometimes I think about it, then I remember natural selection evolution and think about when I read Darwin.
> its all meant to change. im more concerned with photographing old buildings and old photographs of times lost.
> we go through another ice age the majority of it is dead anyway. Cant stop fate. photograph what you can, when you can. Make that record. That record is VERY important.



I agree with what you said to a point. Nature is ever changing and puts a stop to many of its creatures all the time. But the difference between nature and human beings is that we have a conscience, nature is just a objective force with no biases, as sentient beings we dont have that same excuse.


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## bribrius (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> bribrius said:
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> > honestly, sometimes I think about it, then I remember natural selection evolution and think about when I read Darwin.
> ...


we are not above nature and are not separate from it. A lot of people take the perspective we are. It is a version of egoism imo. we die like everything else and go back to dirt. The unbiased objective force is the truth in the creation. Philosophically it can be considered "the way" or the tao it is abundant in many versions and is found throughout history with many peoples. It is the way of all things. The understood flow of the universe and how things work. Humans are but a pebble in the sea. This is much my faith. Pick up the dust, blow it out of your hand watch it dissipate in the wind. That is the "way". It is acceptance of life and death and the nature of all things..
The unbiased objective force you speak of, is the truth. The conscience you speak of, is the false.


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## robbins.photo (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> Due to global warming we will lose and are losing many plants, insects and animal. How does it make you feel that you as a photographer will be the last to see and be able to document a lot of these organisms ever again? And how do you feel to the loss of all of this natural irreplaceable treasure we stand to irrevocably lose?
> 
> I personally feel a great pain for all the suffering my living standards have caused other organisms.



Well you'll have to forgive me for pointing out that this might really be a great topic of discussion for a forum on politics, climate change, etc - really not such a great topic of conversation for a photography forum.  Particularly considering how politically charged the topic is by it's very nature.


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## Overread (May 1, 2014)

MOD notice - thread gets one notice to not go into politics. Anyone caught deliberately  trying to get it closed by doing so will likely get a ruler over their knuckles.


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## bribrius (May 1, 2014)

Overread said:


> MOD notice - thread gets one notice to not go into politics. Anyone caught deliberately trying to get it closed by doing so will likely get a ruler over their knuckles.


yeah umm. On topic. Take lots of photos.....


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## pixmedic (May 1, 2014)

there can be only _*one*_!

seriously though...
most of the time, people only care about saving the cute animals anyway....
As long as the tasty ones survive.

this is really only relevant (on a photography level) if  you are taking pictures of endangered species. Or, even know what is on the list. 
I suppose if you WANT to start documenting animals, you should probably start now, before we lose more.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> hamlet said:
> 
> 
> > Due to global warming we will lose and are losing many plants, insects and animal. How does it make you feel that you as a photographer will be the last to see and be able to document a lot of these organisms ever again? And how do you feel to the loss of all of this natural irreplaceable treasure we stand to irrevocably lose?
> ...



I personally think that there are no hobbies that won't be affected by the warming of the globe, we'll lose a lot of great animals, interesting and beautiful plant speciments that we take for granted right now. I mean what if instead of of a gorrila you could have taken a picture of a real life Brontosaurus? Wouldn't that be an awesome thing? Future generations are going to say the same thing about gorillas: "wouldn't it be awesome if we could take a picture of a gorilla?" It affects photography a big deal.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> there can be only _*one*_!
> 
> seriously though...
> most of the time, people only care about saving the cute animals anyway....
> ...



I agree that we only care for the tasty and cute animals and the ones we like. But without all the "ugly" ones we won't be around either. We evolved together with the "beautiful" and "ugly" organisms, and if they slowly die off, then we will too.


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## robbins.photo (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> robbins.photo said:
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The difficulty being that until A is proven B becomes all conjecture and wild theory at best, hence the huge problem with this entire line of discussion in that many do not share your apparent view that A is a proven fact - not even remotely close.  Unfortunately that entire line of discussion jumps instantly and irrevocably into the arena of politics, which frankly has no place here.  

So you'll forgive me but I chose to bow out now.  As  an ex-boxer I've already had every knuckle on both hands broken, some several times - so I'll just take a big pass on the whole thing. 

Ironic though, that the reason I can't take a picture of the dinosaur in the first place was thanks to global cooling.  Got a good chuckle out of that one.

Enjoy folks.  Lol


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## pixmedic (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> pixmedic said:
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> > there can be only _*one*_!
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its not always a bad thing though....
the dinosaurs didnt live long enough for us to see either. 
in all reality, the human race dying off would probably benefit the planet far more than anything we have done to "help" over the last millennia. 

maybe thats why selfies are so popular now. its a subconscious act of preservation.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> hamlet said:
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I think you are right, this is gonna lead to unwanted political discussion i really didn't set out to have. And as a side note: global warming is not what you think it is. The name is what confuses most people.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> hamlet said:
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I don't disagree with that nihilistic approach, it doesn't have to be that way. I mean i remember a time where we were using plastic bags for groceries which ended up in the sea never degrading, now we use reusable bags and plastic bags are banned. Or where i live recycling has been enforced for over 20 years now, every Belgian citizen must recycle under penalty of a fine or even prison time. I mean we can do a GREAT deal to change the outcome. It doesn't have to be out of our hands.


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## bribrius (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> robbins.photo said:
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no its climate change which evitably leads to global cooling.
i need to pick myself up a warmer llbean jacket.. i wonder how cold a camera can get... hmmm.
lots more photos of snow...
wont have to worry about all those tree leafs in the way anymore.
Good time to touch up on the winter photography skills and buy some snow shoes.
polar bears might be happy as a big in **** when they move in to florida.
all in how you see it.
i feel bad for all those warm weather bugs (not) perhaps i should get into macro and shoot bugs before they start going extinct.
might as well leave the exposure bumped up for all that reflective ice and snow. Perhaps nikon will come out with a camera with built in hand warming?
wont have to pick up the shutter speed anymore to freeze those rivers and waterfalls in motion.. look at all the bright sides. winter olympics photographs year round!!


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## robbins.photo (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> robbins.photo said:
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Lol.. well if you really feel the need to educate me on the subject feel free to PM me, I think you'll be a little surprised by the results.  But with that I will bid the public discussion adieu.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

bribrius said:


> hamlet said:
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I'm not sure what you want to discuss? You say that it's out of our hands and i disagree, the discussion ends there really. There is no point in any further discussion.


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## runnah (May 1, 2014)




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## KmH (May 1, 2014)

For the first 4 billion years or so of Earths history the only 'life' was single cell organisms.
Multi-cellular life first appeared about 600 million years ago.

99.9 % of all the species that have ever lived on Earth are gone. Species extinction is the rule, not an exception.

The average 'life' of a species on Earth is about 4,000,000 years. That's about how long humans have now been around.

The dinosaurs were very successful and had a 160,000,000 year rein, but have been gone now for about 65,000,000 years which is when the last mass extinction occurred (K&#8211;Pg event).
There is evidence, a thin layer of sediment rich in Iridium - an element rare on Earth but common in asteroids, a 6 mile wide asteroid or comet impacted Earth just off the Yucatan Penisula of Mexico.
The impact crater is now under water but is about 115 mi wide and back when it was made would have been 30 or so miles deep,

Prior to that there were mass extinctions 205,000,000, 251,000,000, 354,000,000, and 434,000,000 years ago.


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

KmH said:


> For the first 4 billion years or so of Earths history the only 'life' was single cell organisms.
> Multi-cellular life first appeared about 600 million years ago.
> 
> 99.9 % of all the species that have ever lived on Earth are gone. Species extinction is the rule, not an exception.
> ...



I'm not sure what this has to do with man made disasters? Just because something is the norm in nature doesn't mean we cannot change that. I mean before modern technology, people who were born with some form of mental of physical anomaly didn't make it or rarely made it to adulthood and even then died very young, some were even abandoned as babies by their mothers. And lets talk about diseases: why do we try to cure smallpox? Why not just let nature do whatever it wanted? Why do you put a cast on your leg when it breaks? Why not let your leg be disfigured? We are masters of our planets fate now, and we can decide if we want to preserve as much as we want or we can decide to keep ignoring the problems that will eventually come back to bite us.


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## photoguy99 (May 1, 2014)

Plenty of dinosaurs left. We just call them birds. After trying all the niches, they found one that really worked for them.


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## Designer (May 1, 2014)

bribrius said:


> yeah umm. On topic. Take lots of photos.....


Of organisms.  

Or of organisms having orgasms.

Or of organic organisms originating orgasms.


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## bribrius (May 1, 2014)

hamlet said:


> KmH said:
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> > For the first 4 billion years or so of Earths history the only 'life' was single cell organisms.
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we do these things because we chose not to lose our humanity and put our humanity ahead of the betterment of our species. we actually go against nature, and poison our own gene pool. which will inevitably aid in our own species extinction some day. Even darwin said that by nature, the less adaptable or weaker should die. so that the strong may carry on and the species will adapt.  But he also said for us to allow that with us, we risk our humanity. Or something to that effect.
in the meantime, we should be taking lots of photos..


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## hamlet (May 1, 2014)

I find your views increasingly objectionable. The way i understand your views so far is that: we are helpless and unable to change the course of our destiny. First with global warming and now with evolution. My response to you is: we have come a long way since the 19th century.


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## KmH (May 1, 2014)

Then you should not have started a thread based on such a controversial issue if you can't tolerate other peoples views.

Humans are woefully inept at being able to change anything except their technology.

Human destiny is to become extinct.


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## hamlet (May 2, 2014)

KmH said:


> Then you should not have started a thread based on such a controversial issue if you can't tolerate other peoples views.
> 
> Humans are woefully inept at being able to change anything except their technology.
> 
> Human destiny is to become extinct.



Just because you have the freedom to say what you like doesn't mean you are protected against criticism. I mean how can you have a discussion if you've already thrown in the towel right out of the gate? How am i supposed to have a discussion with you? Do we discuss the manor in which the earth will go sterile? You've started from zero and now you've got nowhere to go, i mean yeah, we are doomed, that's great moving on. Except that i have a far brighter future in mind where we take the raigns and steer the course of the world into a better future for everyone, we can keep doing it with small to moderate incremental changes over time and people will learn to grow to their new lifestyle. Like we did with banning free plastic bags or now that everyone has to recycle, we can do so much more.


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## sm4him (May 2, 2014)

hamlet said:


> I'm not sure what you want to discuss? *You say that it's out of our hands and i disagree, the discussion ends there really. There is no point in any further discussion*.





hamlet said:


> *I find your views increasingly objectionable*. The way i understand your views so far is that: we are helpless and unable to change the course of our destiny. First with global warming and now with evolution. My response to you is: we have come a long way since the 19th century.





hamlet said:


> KmH said:
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> > Then you should not have started a thread based on such a controversial issue if you can't tolerate other peoples views.
> ...



Do you even SEE how contradictory your own statements are? You start a politically-charged, drama-magnet thread for "discussion," then you tell one person you disagree with them and that's it, the discussion ends there, no point in further discussion. You tell another person--or maybe all the other posters in general, since it's not addressed to anyone--that their views are actually objectionable to you, even though you INVITED different viewpoints by starting such a thread, and then to top it off you turn right around and tell KmH that he's not protected against criticism for HIS points of view, even though YOU seem to be the one offended by the fact that others don't agree with your POV.
Not to mention the fact that you STARTED this thread with "The next generation will never see it," talking about things we should photograph because they'll be gone soon, and yet now you seem to have the position that it will all change, that human nature will somehow magically change over the next few decades, when it hasn't much changed in the thousands of years we've had thus far.

The whole conversation is like falling down the Rabbit Hole and having a debate with the Mad Hatter.

For the record, by the way: Outside your little world of Belgium, plastic bags are still being used in massive numbers. Relatively few places in America have enforced recycling programs. Americans probably--no, definitely--ARE the worst offenders, but certainly not the only ones.
One site says Americans used about 50 billion water bottles last year. We recycle, on average, just about 23% of those.
The little coffee pods for Keurig and other one-cup coffee makers are also a huge problem, as are aluminum cans, styrofoam cups, and on and on and on.

I believe we may make a little progress, but trying to re-educate and re-train some 7 billion people to be better stewards of this earth is a task I just don't think humans are up to.


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## runnah (May 2, 2014)

A metaphor I like is say me, Hamlet, KmH and Robbins are the the top of a hill. At the top of this hill is a semi truck with the brakes off and in neutral. Now odds are the 4 of us could get this thing rolling down hill. Not turning around and asking the 4 of use to stop it is a whole different story. 

Apply that as you will.


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## hamlet (May 2, 2014)

sm4him said:


> hamlet said:
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> > I'm not sure what you want to discuss? *You say that it's out of our hands and i disagree, the discussion ends there really. There is no point in any further discussion*.
> ...



This type of non-discourse is completely foreign to me. But let me clarify: I asked how it makes people feel that many species will die out because of us, then i get a cold response of: "well that's how its always been and we can't change anything about it" So my response to that is that that view is nonsense, and i expect people to point out why it isn't nonsense. And the answer that its always been this way isn't a good enough answer. This is what a healthy debate is about, we challenge each others views so we can come to a better understand of what be believe. And again it may be that my culture is different from your, and we do things different here, it may just be my cultural ignorance.



sm4him said:


> For the record, by the way: Outside your little world of Belgium, plastic bags are still being used in massive numbers. Relatively few places in America have enforced recycling programs. Americans probably--no, definitely--ARE the worst offenders, but certainly not the only ones.
> One site says Americans used about 50 billion water bottles last year. We recycle, on average, just about 23% of those.
> The little coffee pods for Keurig and other one-cup coffee makers are also a huge problem, as are aluminum cans, styrofoam cups, and on and on and on.
> 
> I believe we may make a little progress, but trying to re-educate and re-train some 7 billion people to be better stewards of this earth is a task I just don't think humans are up to.


That is a fair criticism. It may not be possible to persuade all of our brothers and sisters to see reason and to preserve life, but we can try to convince as many as we can, because while we don't know where we are headed in the future, this fatalistic attitude of "it is hopeless" won't help anyone. And i'm not even saying that that is necessarily the wrong position to take (though i have a strong aversion to it), i just think that it is not a productive way to spend your time on a sinking ship, you try to save as much as you can.


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## hamlet (May 2, 2014)

I think it is best to leave this discussion for another venue. My main reason is really concern for the well being of animals, i just wanted to get a feel if anyone here cares about the things we photograph and take for granted everyday, that's all really.


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## Warhorse (May 2, 2014)

All together now, "Ommmmmmm..."!


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## Designer (May 2, 2014)

hamlet said:


> .. we challenge each others views ..



O.K., get ready, because here it comes:

Your view is based on phony trumped-up fear-mongering hyperbole, and you have swallowed it whole.

[/gaunlet]


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## rexbobcat (May 2, 2014)

hamlet said:


> I find your views increasingly objectionable. The way i understand your views so far is that: we are helpless and unable to change the course of our destiny. First with global warming and now with evolution. My response to you is: we have come a long way since the 19th century.



Technically global warming (and cooling) is inevitable. I can't remember the specific mechanisms behind it, but the Earth's temperatures are naturally cyclical, meaning that if humans do nothing the global climate is still going to gradually change whether we want it to or not.

The question in the scientific community is not IF the climate is changing, but instead HOW much of an impact we have on that change.  

That's why CO2 sensors have been placed at the the top of the tallest volcano in Hawaii etc.

What they've found is that the amount of CO2 varies per season (more in the winter and less in the summer) but overall it has risen over the pat 100 years. I'm not well-verses enough in climatology to understand the correlations and causal relationships this has with climate change, however. I'm just stating what has been found. 

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/


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## Designer (May 2, 2014)

rexbobcat said:


> I can't remember the specific mechanisms behind it,



I think the sun has something to do with it.


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## bribrius (May 2, 2014)

hamlet said:


> I think it is best to leave this discussion for another venue. My main reason is really concern for the well being of animals, i just wanted to get a feel if anyone here cares about the things we photograph and take for granted everyday, that's all really.


i do. i recycle as well in case you are wondering. And take photos. Sorry if you find my views objectionable. Humans themselves are objectionable. Do not fear this. Nature will inevitably correct and humans will face a massive die off, so it wont matter anymore. Many people with strong views such as yours, have come to a conclusion that the most practical method of promoting the cause is to necessarily crash the economys of the world and promote the human die off. Perhaps while you are taking photos you could rally to that effect, and you will find many online forums that do promote such a cause. Instead of trying to convince people to not use plastic bags, crash the economys so they can not be manufactured.  Usually where those with your group think end up, and i cant argue its logic, it makes sense. 

course i follow the think i mentioned above. so i just follow the current where it goes with a level of acceptance and what i consider a understanding of "the way things work"  tao as it pertains to the universe and life. You could also use photography for your cause and promote it that way. Many photographers have donated much of their time to showing the destruction of the earths animals. Your photography is your tool, more than discussing with us in a forum. Your photos, can say a lot. Both in recording, persuading and is a great tool. i encourage you to use it for such a venue if this is your convictions and speak through your photos.


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## DarkShadow (May 2, 2014)

Designer said:


> hamlet said:
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> > .. we challenge each others views ..
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:lmao:


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## DarkShadow (May 2, 2014)

So are you saying I should Stop changing my cars engine oil over the sewer drain, throwing my dead batteries in the drinking reservoir and  stop mixing the recycle with the regular trash.:scratch:


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