# Printer - Big Decision



## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

I have been planning to print maybe 5 copies of a full-sized (8x10) book of maybe 500 double-sided pages, color and lots of photographs.

I also wanted maybe 5 copies of a similar book of 120 double sided pages.

When I started talking to printers and pricing this out...I was getting estimates like $3,500 to print the books.

Well, I was going to forget the whole thing, but then decided that I should probably try just getting my own good printer and printing out all the pages myself, then just going to someone for binding.

But I am no expert in printers at all.  Given all these pages, I need to ensure:
1. low cost per page (color and images)
2. image quality is important

I welcome any advice or recommendations with respect to appropriate options.

Thanks for your help.


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## Big Mike (Nov 17, 2011)

I'd suggest that you continue looking around for someplace that can do this for you.  Doing it yourself will probably create a handful of new problems.


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## spacefuzz (Nov 17, 2011)

kevinbiestra said:


> But I am no expert in printers at all. Given all these pages, I need to ensure:
> 1. low cost per page (color and images)
> 2. image quality is important



These are going to be hard to find together........

Are you looking for fine art quality images or just inkjet quality.....
Can you plan your layout to minimize the number of photo pages...

Or are you rich?


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

spacefuzz said:


> kevinbiestra said:
> 
> 
> > But I am no expert in printers at all. Given all these pages, I need to ensure:
> ...



I am not rich.

By low cost per page, I don't mean it has to be 2 cents.  I am just going to be printing thousands of pages.  Print shops want to charge about $1 per two-sided color page for the printing alone.  I was figuring that by investing the capital of the printer, the variable costs (printing pages) would drop by more than enough to justify buying the printer.

But I defer to the expertise of others.

The number of photo pages is fixed.

It doesn't have to be "fine art" quality.  But it can't look like a crappy old home printer.  I'd like to shoot for magazine quality or something close.


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## Big Mike (Nov 17, 2011)

Printers are cheap.  Good quality paper is expensive.  Ink is expensive.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

I just figured that getting a good printer, and buying good paper and ink, couldn't possibly add up to $3500.

Perhaps someone can suggest a specific printing service that would be more reasonable?  I was really surprised at the estimates I was getting.

Someone suggested I will run into problems printing it myself.  What problems?

Perhaps I was a bit naive at the beginning but I'd like to learn where the expenses are adding up that makes the total figure so outrageous...


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## Tony S (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, for one thign 500 pages is a lot of printing to do.  And the papers you print on are going to make that one really thick book.  I've found that in almost all instances it is much less expensive to have the printing done somewhere else than what I can do on the printer here at home, just the time alone to do it will be a huge investment.

  There are so many companies out that now print photo books, take some more time to research and price things more.  Get more specific as to what you are wanting to print and then shop that around so you get good comparisons.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

Appreciate the feedback...

But I have gone to a handful of places around town and this is a fairly consistent estimate.

I don't mind that the book is really thick.  It's a one-time thing.  A relative who was a photographer passed away and I am putting all his collected works in one book and printing a handful of copies for a few family members.  I've already put well over 150 hours into the design of the pages.

I never imagined it would be this expensive to print, so I didn't even look into that portion until I was nearly done the design.

I am just now looking at some online book printing places but so far, they don't seem to do more than 400 pages or so in a book...and I also don't really want to send everything he ever photographed out in an e-mail...although that isn't my top priority.


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## thereyougo! (Nov 17, 2011)

Are you really sure you need 120 pages?  That's much longer than most coffee table books.  Is it a local printer that has quoted you, or is it one of the online photobook companies?  Also it isn't just the printing of the photo pages that will be the issue.  The binding is all important as is the first and last cover sheet.  It's no good having top notch printing paper if the binding is rubbish.  This is even the more case with a 120 page (60 sheets of paper at say 170gsm isn't gonna come either light or cheap) photobook.  You are going to need good binding and it won't be a DIY job I fear, and a print house who haven't given the printing job to isn't going to do it on the cheap.  Part of the pricing issue will be the small print run


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

I am positive about the number of pages.  And 120 pages is the small book.

It's not a coffee table book.  It's like a visual encyclopedia.  There really is no way to pare it down, and that would also defeat the purpose and concept of the book...

I agree the binding isn't DIY.  If I printed the pages myself, I was then going to take them to a professional for binding.  It shouldn't be too expensive for copies of the 120-pager but I expect something a little pricier with the 500-pager since it will probably require stitched binding.

The ridiculously high quotes are from multiple local printers.  I have been perusing online companies...with a couple issues mentioned in my post above.


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## thereyougo! (Nov 17, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised if the 120 page will need stitched binding especially if you want it to last.  Put 120 sheets of photo paper together to see the thickness.  If you are using photo paper cheap binding will fall apart very quickly.It's not necessarily the size of the paper that will make the most difference, be it A4/A5 etc, but the weight of the paper.  It's your life, but I wouldn;t want to be printing that many pages even on my Canon 9000 pro (although I have printed hundreds of individual shots.) For photos to look good it will need to be at least 170gsm.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

thereyougo! said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the 120 page will need stitched binding especially if you want it to last.  Put 120 sheets of photo paper together to see the thickness.  If you are using photo paper cheap binding will fall apart very quickly.It's not necessarily the size of the paper that will make the most difference, be it A4/A5 etc, but the weight of the paper.  It's your life, but I wouldn;t want to be printing that many pages even on my Canon 9000 pro (although I have printed hundreds of individual shots.) For photos to look good it will need to be at least 170gsm.



Is the reason you wouldn't want to print the pages on your Canon 9000 the time involved?

If so, you've seen the dollar figure I was quoted.  If I even cut it in half, I will spend from here to eternity hunched over a printer.

I could buy a new computer and 2 good camera lenses with those savings.  And I still think $1700 is outrageous for getting these printed...

If you have other reasons, I'd be interested in hearing what else I'm overlooking...

I printed out pages on a relatively thick matte paper for another project that looked pretty good.  About 100 pages was just over an inch if I recall...  I paid a printer through the nose for that as well...


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## CCericola (Nov 17, 2011)

Binding can be more expensive than printing. With 500 pages, perfect bound, you will need to make sure your gutter is extremely large or you will loose part of the page. 500 pages is too large for spiral binding. 500 pages of copy paper is an entire ream of paper. Paper + Printer + Ink > $3500 Magazines are printed on an offset printer on 60-80# book with aqueous coating. This cannot be done with a home printer. 

I think you want something like this: Professional, High Quality Book Printers | Edition One Books For a quantity of 5 books (that is the minimum), 500 color pages, hardcover book with a dust jacket is $604.00


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## CCericola (Nov 17, 2011)

Actually, 500 double sided pages would be 1000 pages in printing terms (500 sheets), so you are at 866.50, and 5 of the small books is* $467.50*


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks for digging up those figures.

I am fairly confident that a good inkjet could produce sufficient quality printing for my needs - though I will defer to your knowledge if you are certain it would not.

But if it would, it still seems way way cheaper for me to buy the right printer, print everything, and then pay for binding.  Plus I would have a good printer at the end of it...

The figures you dug up are even higher than the estimates that local printers were giving me, so if a home printer CAN do the job, that would make the case even stronger for going that way, it seems...   ?


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## thereyougo! (Nov 17, 2011)

kevinbiestra said:


> thereyougo! said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the 120 page will need stitched binding especially if you want it to last.  Put 120 sheets of photo paper together to see the thickness.  If you are using photo paper cheap binding will fall apart very quickly.It's not necessarily the size of the paper that will make the most difference, be it A4/A5 etc, but the weight of the paper.  It's your life, but I wouldn;t want to be printing that many pages even on my Canon 9000 pro (although I have printed hundreds of individual shots.) For photos to look good it will need to be at least 170gsm.
> ...





Not just the time involved. The printer could do it if I had the time to stand over it, but I travel almost constantly and although I love my portable Canon IP100 printing masses like this would see it to the end of its days! With a book like this, the finish would have to be perfect. I think that for example spiral bound photo books look amateur and have a school project feel about them. So it has to be a proper binding. If you are going to print on good quality paper (I print A4 on 300GSM but this would be excessive on a photo book) at say 170 - 200gsm paper then using inexpensive binding will mean it is unlikey to have the durability to deal with the weight. I wouldn't want to print on paper lighter than 170 gsm, Doing it yourself could prove frustrating, and not necessarily all that much cheaper than a professional job. A book literally stands pr falls on the quality of its binding.


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## CCericola (Nov 17, 2011)

How is $1334 greater than $3500?


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## photo guy (Nov 17, 2011)

I agree with finding a company to do the job.  I looked into it myself working on my family history and it was way cheaper than if I did it myself, so I only printed one master for me on my own printer and told all relatives who asked for a copy the price it would cost.  Surprisingly, no one else wants a printed copy now.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 18, 2011)

CCericola said:


> How is $1334 greater than $3500?



Was your price for five units of each book?  I thought it was for one.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 18, 2011)

photo guy said:


> I agree with finding a company to do the job.  I looked into it myself working on my family history and it was way cheaper than if I did it myself, so I only printed one master for me on my own printer and told all relatives who asked for a copy the price it would cost.  Surprisingly, no one else wants a printed copy now.



That must have been frustrating after all that work.

Mind if I ask about how many pages it was and how much you would have had to charge family members for a copy?

Not trying to be nosy.  Just you would have a very tangible figure having gone through roughly the exact same process.


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## Infinite_Day (Nov 18, 2011)

kevinbiestra said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > How is $1334 greater than $3500?
> ...



I went to the website that CCericola put up for you and looked around and I believe that is the cost for all the copies you want. I'm not trying to be rude but why don't you simply go to the site she linked and look? There is a price calculator there to assist customers. Seems like a decent service. It's kind of coming across like you _want_ to do this yourself and have to print out all the pages on your own. I don't do my own printing but I still don't think you realize how expensive it is going to be to print all the images you're talking about. A Pixma Pro9000 is about $450 and uses 8 ink cartridges. You don't want to use off brand ink so each ink-refill set will cost you ~$90 and you'll use a lot of ink printing that many pages. Add on the cost of high quality paper, binding, etc...... It's going to add up quickly.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 18, 2011)

I just typed up a lengthy reply to this last post and, consistent with how this project has been going, the numerous paragraphs were lost in cyberspace and never got posted.

Anyway, it was a pretty thoughtful reply.  But I only have the energy for the Coles' Notes now.

I misinterpreted CC's original figures as per unit, even though she stated pretty clearly it was for five.  The site seems like a better deal than most of what I have seen, provided they do a good job.

I am considering just doing a run of one or two copies of each now, though.  The five copy minimum would preclude that.

Anyhow, I'm learning as I go.  I appreciate everyone's advice.

I didn't visit the site immediately yesterday and just quoted CC's figures because I had gone through the pricing out forms of at least 10 such sites yesterday and didn't have another one in me at the time.  But if they all do a similar quality job, hers seemed like the best deal.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, though it appeared to be a good deal, that service is now telling me they won't handle a book of that size...

I may actually be forced into a DIY situation...


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 23, 2011)

Upon further research, I have yet to find a place online that is willing to print and bind a book of these dimensions.

At the moment, the only option that will even do it (that I am aware of) was the local printer I mentioned in my original post that wanted >$3000...

For this reason, I am at least reconsidering the print-it-myself option by way of buying a printer...and welcome further advice on that front.

I welcome advice on any front...I just seem to be learning that nobody apparently ever tries to print a book this big...  ?


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 25, 2011)

In the interest of hopefully helping others who may ever end up in a  similar predicament, I will try to document a bit of what I learn  here...

I said at the outset that I am not an expert in anything related to printing.  I would consider myself somewhere below "layman."

I  have just learned about paper grains and that, if you want to do a DIY  print job like this...to print parallel to the paper grain.

I'm still trying to determine how to ensure this is done.  Just flagging the issue...


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 25, 2011)

kevinbiestra said:


> I have been planning to print maybe 5 copies of a full-sized (8x10) book of maybe 500 double-sided pages, color and lots of photographs.
> 
> I also wanted maybe 5 copies of a similar book of 120 double sided pages.
> 
> ...



Quite a few things to address here. Some already have by other members and I may just put a slightly different twist on them, others will be new.

Offset printing costs are very high for a few copies . The per copy cost goes way down when doing huge quantities but a lot of printers are using digital printers/copiers to output things such as multi color business cards these days because it is a quite affordable alternative. However, business cards are going to be 6-up or 9 up in most cases and it is still cheaper to do 1000 or 1500 than it is to have 500 done.

Image Quality: You can get very high image quality from home printers. I was amazed by the prints I got from a small Canon I got free with one of my computers   But the problem for you is not so much image quality as longevity. Because of the technology involved, your prints off a small home printer will start to fade fairly quickly. How quickly depends on how much of light of day they see but, in the long run, home printers are not a viable option for books. Printers used by commercial photo shops are worth way more than the $3,500 you seem to find expensive... but the prints will last a very long time. Some of them actually use an analog photographic printing process on photo paper from what I was explained.

500 or even 120 pages: You've got to be kidding. Take any magazine and measure it than do a quick calculation to figure out the thickness of your 500 pages. Now, what you have just come up with is something printed on offset paper which has no equivalent in the photo paper world. Thin photo paper, which would not be as thin as a magazine page, buckles pretty bad. Your book would end up 5 to 8 times (or more) as thick as the 500 page magazine.

Low Cost and Quality: Those two are very rarely seen together. Good art books are not cheap, some of them are actually quite expensive and are produced by specialized printing houses because the printing of art is an art in itself.

Lots of photographs: That to me means there will also be text and that is a big problem. Text looks better off a laser printer while photos look better off of printers that are not laser. So, will you be able to segregate the text from the photos where the printing is concerned? Will you be able to run the same paper through both printers?

So, yes, you may want to forget the whole thing.

Then again, you don't say much about what it is exactly you are trying to do so it is very hard to judge. Maybe Blurb can do what you want. I don't remember being impressed by their product but it might be enough for you. Or maybe you just want to do a one of a kind book. Those are not uncommon in the art world. I've done a few myself. Hand stitched, hand bound, etc.

By the way, magazine quality doesn't really mean much. There are cheaply printed magazines and then there are others you could take the pages out of and frame them. Some European photo magazines of the pre-digital age come to mind.

You are talking about stitched binding for the 500 page book. Have you taken this into account for the design? You need to.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 25, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts.

To answer what I can regarding your points:

- I have considered and expect that stitched binding will be involved.  I am getting the impression I can get that cost down to around $100/book (just the binding).

- Magazine quality was my term, and doesn't mean anything I guess.  I just meant that I wanted crisp clear images.  Regarding your text vs photos concern, the text is a much lower priority than the photographs, in terms of clarity and quality.  Indeed, the fonts are very stylized and are themselves more like images than text.  For printing purposes, it would make the most sense to consider it a photo or fine art book.

- Thanks for bringing up the longevity of the prints.  That was a concern of mine.  I have inquired at a couple online printers about their process and the longevity of the prints, but so far, I am told that they don't print books this large before their process becomes a point of issue.

- I would actually be grateful if someone could tell me what kind of process I should want a professional printer to use to ensure longevity.  Is there a certain type of printer or ink that I should be confirming they use?

- If any consumer printer does use an appropriate process for longevity, I would love to hear about it.  For now, I won't get my hopes up.

- Yes, I am pretty much treating this as a one-of-a-kind (possibly two- or five-of-a-kind) book.  This is a once in a lifetime type project so, while I don't want to get taken to the cleaners financially, I am willing to consider prices that make sense given the costs involved in the industry.  I am still trying to learn what "reasonable" costs are for such a project.

- I am aware that the book (especially the 500 page one) will be very thick.  As in ancient-tome-encyclopedia thick.  In its way, that is somewhat fitting for the project, as long as the structural integrity of the book isn't compromised.


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## photo guy (Nov 25, 2011)

It would be easier to print the book in volumes so you so each one is not too thick.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 26, 2011)

I have begun to consider that and COULD break it into three volumes if I had to...  And it is starting to look like I may well have to, though costs will probably go up since each binding job is now three separate binding jobs.

If I had it printed in volumes, it could work if I had a custom box or case of some sort to hold all the volumes...

This is probably my naivete coming through again...but I'm still not clear why one huge book makes the project so prohibitive.  Do the physics of book integrity become an issue at that point or is it merely unusual to have such a thick book?


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## c.cloudwalker (Nov 26, 2011)

kevinbiestra said:


> This is probably my naivete coming through again...but I'm still not clear why one huge book makes the project so prohibitive.  Do the physics of book integrity become an issue at that point or is it merely unusual to have such a thick book?



Yes and yes.

No problem with your naivete, at least you are asking questions. And you are asking the right questions, imo, which shows you are not so naive.

But yes, the sheer size (for the type of project) you are talking about is beyond what most modern printing outfit can even think to deal with. Way back when it worked somewhat because books were not opened very often 


The main thing is that the whole project is so huge for someone with NO (?) experience that everything looks like a major problem.  I mentioned a one-of-a-kind-project in my earlier post because it is easier to deal with. Easier to learn with. And cheaper to fook up!

How about starting with one smaller book. Home made, hand made, and see where that goes.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks for the information...

And for not looking at me like I am trying to build a time machine in my garage instead of just print a really big book.

The thing is, I am not trying to get into the book production business.  I am a graphic design guy.

I have already designed all 1000+ pages of this one book and now I just want to get a copy or two made as gifts for close family members.  MAYBE five copies if it doesn't mean selling my kidneys.

I don't really have any other content to make a small book out of.  The only thing I could do is break off a piece of this huge book into a small book as a test run...  But I feel like my head is taking on more than it can handle just trying to figure out how to print the pages.  If I start trying to digest what would be involved in doing my own binding, I will probably get an aneurysm.

Also, while I would consider doing a smaller test run at home, that brings me back to my original first step in this thread of buying the right printer...  From what I've heard in this thread, any home printer will pretty much result in immediate failure of the project by having the pages fade within a few years.

Although, I am researching those matters lightly in trying to make sure the grain of the paper is properly oriented when printing happens...

And you are correct.  I have NO experience with any of the matters I'm asking about.  I have just put hundreds and hundreds of hours into the design of the book and pages and I still find it amazing that getting the pages printed and bound could be the most difficult part of the process.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually, as a quick follow up, I did (a couple years ago) design a book of about 160 pages (80 pieces of paper) and the pages were card stock (quite thick) and 8x10.

Both sides of each page were printed in color with lots of photos / images.

I had it hardcover bound and the whole thing wasn't really a big deal.  An office supply chain handled it and it came out quite well and wasn't a whole lot more than an inch thick.  Which is probably one of the reasons I figured this new project wouldn't be so impossible.

I don't know anything about the archival longevity of the ink used in that smaller project, so I can't guarantee it won't fade in 6 years...but it was "professionally printed" and the whole thing cost maybe $120 at the most.

The binding wasn't stitched.  Just "perfect" binding, and the cover was fine for that project but I do want to step it up for the current one...  Whether I somehow succeed in printing a 1000 page book or break it into volumes or whatever.


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## Helen B (Nov 26, 2011)

Paper manufacturers, like Red River, may offer double-sided paper in grain short and grain long.

There are two main sources for information on predicted life of ink/paper and other print combinations: Wilhelm and Aardenburg. Inkjet prints can have very long predicted lives, particularly kept in the dark, such as in a book.

Ink costs are likely to be substantial if you decide to print the books yourself - though the quality can be significantly higher than web offset or typical PoD laser prints. Choose your printer carefully for that reason - you could consider refillable cartridges or a continuous ink supply. With some Epson printers you can use high capacity cartridges (from large format Epson printers) as a source of relatively cheap bulk ink.


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## unpopular (Nov 26, 2011)

I hope you have this already imposed if you're planning to DIY...


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 26, 2011)

Helen B said:


> Paper manufacturers, like Red River, may offer double-sided paper in grain short and grain long.
> 
> There are two main sources for information on predicted life of ink/paper and other print combinations: Wilhelm and Aardenburg. Inkjet prints can have very long predicted lives, particularly kept in the dark, such as in a book.
> 
> Ink costs are likely to be substantial if you decide to print the books yourself - though the quality can be significantly higher than web offset or typical PoD laser prints. Choose your printer carefully for that reason - you could consider refillable cartridges or a continuous ink supply. With some Epson printers you can use high capacity cartridges (from large format Epson printers) as a source of relatively cheap bulk ink.



Thanks for the links.  I had come across Wilhelm but not Aardenburg.

The whole Wilhelm thing was confusing me since for every piece of information on Wilhelm tests, there seems to be three people that have run some sort of home experiment to discredit his data as not including ozone, or this or that...

And given that I enter this field from square one...it's been a slow process to tease all these things apart...

Anyway, I will take a closer look at the two.

It would be great if there was some consumer site that actually listed all the printers available for purchase and what their cost-per-page is for printing / refills etc.


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## kevinbiestra (Apr 2, 2012)

Just seeing if anyone might have any new info...I got pulled away from the project temporarily but it is nearing printing time and I think that all things equal, I would probably rather invest in my own printer if it can do the job I need...


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## Richb1888 (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi,

To produce this book professionally on a LITHO OFFSET machine will be very expensive..... These presses cost well in excess of $1million to buy.  You could go to a digital printer and ask them to output 1 spread to let you see the quality? If it is sufficient then DIGITAL printing will definitely be cheaper. If the job will be perfect bound then remember to include a gutter.... There is another option called burst binding where no gutters are required and the finish is the same as if it were perfect bound.

Your digital printer should be able to print this job as 4pp sections and supply them to you folded. You can then take the folded sections to a binders if they are unable to do that for you. 3500 seems like a true price for high quality litho printing. I think digital printing will be sufficient for your needs tho given what you are willing to spend.

Hope that helps a little.....?

Rich


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## kevinbiestra (May 9, 2012)

Thanks Rich.  This info is helpful and some of the terms are new to me...more research, but I much prefer guided research to what would otherwise be a wasteful shotgun approach.

I redesigned everything to allow for gutters but this gutterless possibility is nice to be aware of and would probably be preferable.

I kind of wish someone could recommend their opinion of the best consumer printer for the job so I could run a few pages off that puppy and then determine whether that is an option...

And then there is still the whole ink / paper combo for print permanence...  Ay yay yay...


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## JonathanNYC (May 9, 2012)

if you print it yourself, do you care that it will look like a screen play? I doubt you could print it to the "professional grade" style including cover, jacket, binding and the like for $3500.00 not to mention getting it to look like something professionaly done. 

printers make money by setting up the print press and the like, not for the amount of work it has to churn out. so i bet if you ordered more copies, the cost per unit would go down considerably.


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## kevinbiestra (May 10, 2012)

JonathanNYC said:


> if you print it yourself, do you care that it will look like a screen play? I doubt you could print it to the "professional grade" style including cover, jacket, binding and the like for $3500.00 not to mention getting it to look like something professionaly done.
> 
> printers make money by setting up the print press and the like, not for the amount of work it has to churn out. so i bet if you ordered more copies, the cost per unit would go down considerably.



Hi Jonathan,

Yes, I absolutely don't want this to look like a bound screenplay.  This project is enormously visual.

When I started this whole research process I was surprised to learn that consumer inkjets apparently have better image quality than consumer color laser.  And then further online research spoke glowingly of the resolution quality of today's inkjets...practically professional litho...

But I am hearing here that...apparently not...I have to go professional...

My technical issues just boil down to:

1. High color photo reproduction
2. Getting the grain of the paper right
3. Having an ink with high color permanence
4. Having a paper that allows the ink to have high color permanence
5. Affordable - but this is secondary to having these other four conditions met.

I am constrained by a couple other conditions:

1. There are a lot of family photos, etc mixed into the project and I am hesitant to just hand over a huge stick of data to a random printer.  That is one of my reasons for trying to DIY with the printing...but again, I will hand it over to the pros if absolutely necessary.

2. I am willing to break the project into, say, three or four volumes...if there is a way of encasing them as a single unit...  Either making three or four books and binding the books together somehow (?) or having, say, a leather box that the individual volumes fit into to keep them together...

I know my questions seem to never end...but this was an enormous project from the artistic end and I just never expected the technical side of printing to be this overwhelming.  I am gaining respect for the experts in the printing business, but still want to learn enough about how to execute my options to do as much as possible myself with good results.


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## JonathanNYC (May 10, 2012)

kevinbiestra said:


> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> Yes, I absolutely don't want this to look like a bound screenplay.  This project is enormously visual.
> 
> ...



I just typed out a crazy long reply only to have the whole thing get deleted b/c i hit reply to thread instead of post quick reply... GRRR...

try a local book binder/print shop, ask them if you print out material can they hard cover bind it.


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## JonathanNYC (May 10, 2012)

Long's-Roullet Bookbinders, Inc. - Pricing

This is pretty cool

BOOKBINDING 101  Please note that the  steps shown below generally describe the binding process but will not  apply to each book that we bind/rebind.  Books are reviewed on an  individual basis, and the process that is most appropriate to ensure a  durable, attractive binding will be done.

When you bring in your  book, you will be asked to choose          the cover material and color, as well as the stamping color.   When you book is processed for binding, it will be assigned a unique  alpha-numeric code that distinguishes it          from the other books in the bindery. This code, along with your  name and binding          instructions, is recorded in duplicate on a binding slip. One  copy stays          with your book; the other is maintained in the office.

        The condition of the book's cover and original sewing are examined. If          the original sewing is strong and the cover is in good shape, the book          will be recased. (The steps shown below are most typical of a binding order where several issues of a magazine were being bound together.)

             The Binding Process






 If recasing          is not an option, the original cover is removed, and the spine is put          through the milling machine to remove any glue and expose clean paper          fibers.




 The newly-exposed edge that resulted from milling is then notched. The          depth of the notch is adjusted depending on the weight and size of the          text block, as well as the binding margin (space between the spine and          left margin). Endsheets are placed at the front and back of your book.          The alpha-numeric code from the binding slip is noted on the top end paper.



 The Double Fan Adhesive method is used to adhere the pages together. Flannel          is applied to the spine to hold the pages together, and the book is left          to dry overnight.



 If the ends of the pages          of your book are uneven, dirty, or worn, the edges will be trimmed to          give your book a clean, even finish.




 Next, the spine and cover boards for your book are individually cut to          size. The boards are marked with the book's unique alpha-numeric code          to ensure they will be matched later to the text block, whose end sheets          have the same alpha-numeric code.



 Standard stamping is done on a computerized machine. Files of  the imprint information are created, the correct size cloth is chosen,  and the cover is imprinted. Any hand          imprinting or special imprinting (i.e. panel lines, decorative  imprints)          are done after the cover has been assembled.



 Next, the cover is assembled.          The cloth is passed through a hot glue machine, and the cover boards,          spine board, and cord reinforcement for the spine (if needed) are applied.         A special machine is used to fold under the excess fabric and create         square corners.



 At this time, any special          stamping is done. A manual stamping machine where the type must be individually          handset is used. While it is more labor intensive than the automated imprinter,          it provides a greater variety of layout options. Die casts are made and          used upon request.



 Now, your book          is cased in, meaning the glued text block is adhered to the  cover (case) that was created for it. Cased in books are given about 10  minutes for the glue to cure, at which point the book is ready to be  pressed. 




 The hydraulic press uses pressure to force any air bubbles out  of the space between the cover and the endsheet, making for a firm  adhesion.  The press also has a component that creates the shoulder on  the cover (the attractive groove between where the spine and boards meet  up).  The press can be regulated in regard to force used and length of  time that the book is pressed.  These adjustments are made depending on  the thickness of the book as well as the quality of paper used.



 Finally, your book is inspected for strength of the text block,  correct construction of the case, and correct imprinting of the titling  information.


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## kevinbiestra (May 13, 2012)

Thanks again for the additional info.

When this is all said and done, I should be able to write a book about bookbinding...that will be cost-prohibitive to print of course.


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## newfangled (Jul 11, 2012)

It could be that one of the better photobook companies could meet your needs. These new guys at MILK Tailor Made Books - Award-winning publisher seeks photographers have a track record with publishing top pros (Albert Watson, Platon and others) so might be interesting now they are looking for test photographers. I would look at the deal and see if it can be adapted. There's also blurb and a few others who say they have quality. Way cheaper than working direct with a printer.


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## gsgary (Jul 11, 2012)

kevinbiestra said:


> spacefuzz said:
> 
> 
> > kevinbiestra said:
> ...



You have no chance of printing that cheap at home


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## gsgary (Jul 11, 2012)

kevinbiestra said:


> thereyougo! said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the 120 page will need stitched binding especially if you want it to last.  Put 120 sheets of photo paper together to see the thickness.  If you are using photo paper cheap binding will fall apart very quickly.It's not necessarily the size of the paper that will make the most difference, be it A4/A5 etc, but the weight of the paper.  It's your life, but I wouldn;t want to be printing that many pages even on my Canon 9000 pro (although I have printed hundreds of individual shots.) For photos to look good it will need to be at least 170gsm.
> ...




$1700 is only just over £1000 which is peanuts for what you are asking for, thats £200 each for something that can be past on down the family


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## sovietdoc (Jul 11, 2012)

> When I started talking to printers and pricing this out...I was getting estimates like $3,500 to print the books.
> 
> Well, I was going to forget the whole thing, but then decided that I  should probably try just getting my own good printer and printing out  all the pages myself, then just going to someone for binding.



If the print shop estimates your price to be $3500, if you do it yourself, usually you can just double or triple that price and that's what it will cost you in the end.  This, of course, is if your prints will be of the same quality as the ones from the shop.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

Old thread.. but I agree with Gary and Doc!


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## hyperdash (Jul 18, 2012)

sovietdoc said:


> > When I started talking to printers and pricing this out...I was getting estimates like $3,500 to print the books.
> >
> > Well, I was going to forget the whole thing, but then decided that I  should probably try just getting my own good printer and printing out  all the pages myself, then just going to someone for binding.
> 
> ...



i tried to do my own printing for a 200 pages book before.. i thought it was cheaper.. but when i went to a printing shop last week to canvass for a price, they have it cheaper plus the binding was free.. I think i have spent more for those OEM HP printer ink that i have used..


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## kevinbiestra (Dec 1, 2012)

hyperdash said:


> sovietdoc said:
> 
> 
> > > When I started talking to printers and pricing this out...I was getting estimates like $3,500 to print the books.
> ...



Thanks for the added replies.  Still trying to find a relatively affordable, relatively high quality to do this.  Focused enough on doing it right (archival ink and such) that I am not in a frantic hurry.


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## kevinbiestra (Nov 26, 2013)

Hi, it's been an additional year and I still haven't solved the problem in a way that would get a handful of copies printed and bound for less than several thousand dollars...

Not expecting miracles, but I thought I would breathe a little oxygen into the thread in case any fresh perspectives may have arisen in the last year...  Or if some minor advances in technology might be able to shave off some costs...

As it stands five copies of the 1400 page book, stitched binding (and possibly broken up into 4 volumes per copy in order to be able to actually bind it) remain prohibitively expensive...but I've got to find a way at some point.  Hopefully without selling a kidney...

Thanks to everyone who has contributed and who may yet offer their thoughts.


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