# Presenting unedited SOOC pics to clients



## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

How good of an idea is that? I think it's good so you don't have to waste your time editing ALL the pics from the session when they might not even like certain shots. So instead, once they choose what pics they want for CD or print, you just edit the ones that they selected. 
I'm asking because sometimes pics don't look good SOOC. (Lighting issues, wrinkles, things that need to be cloned out... etc.) and the client might think "wow these pics suck". Could it be a bad first impression showing SOOC images?


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

It's the worst idea you have come up with this is something you never do, do you want to sell photos if so they will have to be perfect sooc


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## MWC2 (Aug 8, 2011)

How many shots per session are you showing each client that you feel it's a waste of time? 

I don't even show my DH images that are SOOC.  No way, No how.


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## MTVision (Aug 8, 2011)

I just had my daughters pictures done and the photographer just picked the ones she liked and edited those.  I never saw all of the pictures she took.  I received about 60 pictures from her and a few of them were the same pictures just edited differently (B+W/selective color/sepia/cropped).  Personally, as the professional, you should choose the best shots since you know what looks good and what doesn't.  My photographer asked me a millions questions about how I would like them edited and other stuff but that might be because she knows that I like photography and that I usually do my daughters portraits.

But then again, how bad could it be to show them pics SOOC? Big department store photographers do that.  I don't know if they even edit their photos but they do let you go through all the shots and pick the poses you like.  You are being hired (vs the big store) to take the pictures and edit them with your personal touch. I've been to the big department store photographers and individual photographers and I liked the individual better.  I also liked that I didn't have to pick my own pictures out.  That was left in the hands of the professional.  

This is all my opinion - I am not a professional photographer


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


> It's the worst idea you have come up with this is something you never do, do you want to sell photos if so they will have to be perfect sooc



Just please... shut up. NOTHING is perfect SOOC. 
YES you want to shoot the best you possibly can sooc, but there is always cropping and composition adjusting, dodging and burning, cloning/cropping out distractions,  blemish fixing, skin smoothing and TONS of other things (and creative things) to perform that a camera can not do! OK?? So get over yourself. So if your photos are absolutely perfect SOOC... why do _you_ have photoshop and/or lightroom??


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

If you shoot on a white background you are going to have to light it perfectly or it will look muddy and grey


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MWC2 said:


> How many shots per session are you showing each client that you feel it's a waste of time?
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> I don't even show my DH images that are SOOC.  No way, No how.



What is DH? 
And I don't think you get what I mean. I started off shooting around 100 pics per session. I'd edit about half of that (dumping the doubles or the ones that didn't turn out good) and put it on CD for my clients. 

 Now to make my work and time cost effective... I have a set amount of pics my clients will get on CD. So if I show them all the soocs from the session in a gallery, they will choose about 20 pics they want on CD.  Then i would just have to edit those instead of editing up to 100 pics. I hope im clear now.. i don't think i was really in my op...lol


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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This is SOOC all i did was crop 8x6  and send to dye sub printer and customer had their mounted print from shot to print in less than 2 minutes, it's not perfect but i made £600 in 4 hours


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## MWC2 (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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DH = Darling Husband/Darn Husband.

So you are selling a disk of 20 images, why even show them?  Pick the 20 best, edit those and send those off to the client on a disk.  Problem solved.


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## MTVision (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> MWC2 said:
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> > Now to make my work and time cost effective... I have a set amount of pics my clients will get on CD. So if I show them all the soocs from the session in a gallery, they will choose about 20 pics they want on CD. Then i would just have to edit those instead of editing up to 100 pics.
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## MTVision (Aug 8, 2011)

If you don't mind me asking - how much are you charging for the shoot and the 20 pictures? I know prices vary according to geographical location - but I was just curious.


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## brandibell (Aug 8, 2011)

I let my clients choose the photos they want edited. A few years ago when I opened my studio I would pick which ones I thought were best but sometimes I would get clients who would wanted to see them all or wanted more pictures or would ask why a certain one wasn't edited etc. Now I edited a certain amount based on the length of the shoot and they get to pick which they want and if they want more then agreed upon they will have to pay extra ( amount of edited photos is always stated in my contracts). I find allowing them to choose is less of a hassle. However before showing clients I do minor touch ups to the image if they need to be done (lighting Etc) and obviously if there is a photo that is just plain awful I delete before uploading but that's usually not an issue.


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

MTVision said:


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


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OMG you cropped it didnt you??! Do you not sharpen for print?? You could have have burned those white lines in his right eye and erased some wonky hairs sticking out. This is what i'm talking about.

Even if you just cropped it.. why waste "2 minutes" of your life if your client didn't even want that photo??


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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I didn't waste 2 minutes, 2 minutes = £10 in my pocket


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MWC2 said:


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Because I take about 75-100 pictures depending on the session. Most of the time clients want to see them all. No way im editing 100 pictures per session. Plus if i have a set amount of pics on CD, that gives me the opportunity to earn more and charge per add on photo.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MTVision said:


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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If you are using studio lighting and custom white balance why cant you edit 1 in lightroom and apply those settings to all the shots just to show them it only takes minutes and them give them a slide show


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

brandibell said:


> I let my clients choose the photos they want edited. A few years ago when I opened my studio I would pick which ones I thought were best but sometimes I would get clients who would wanted to see them all or wanted more pictures or would ask why a certain one wasn't edited etc.* Now I edited a certain amount based on the length of the shoot and they get to pick which they want and if they want more then agreed upon they will have to pay extra ( amount of edited photos is always stated in my contracts)*. *I find allowing them to choose is less of a hassle*. However before showing clients I do minor touch ups to the image if they need to be done (lighting Etc) and obviously if there is a photo that is just plain awful I delete before uploading but that's usually not an issue.



EXACTLY! This is what I want to do! 

:thumbup: on the minor touch ups if they _need_ to be done!


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


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you are just so dense....


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## MTVision (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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## MWC2 (Aug 8, 2011)

The only way around "wasting time" vs. SOOC images is to create and run a "close enough" action in PS as a batch process, show those and then edit the client's pics.  I'm not sure if this is the way I would want to go, as you seem to be giving up a lot of your creative freedom, but to each their own.


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## joealcantar (Aug 8, 2011)

Can we have a thread without issues?  Getting old. 
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Shoot well, Joe


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

How can i be dense  do you make $15 in 2 minutes on your shoots ? from what i have seen and read your shots would not be good enough SOOC


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## MTVision (Aug 8, 2011)

BTW - checked out your website.  I love the newborn pictures and the maternity pictures!


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


> How can i be dense  do you make $15 in 2 minutes on your shoots ? from what i have seen and read your shots would not be good enough SOOC



You are just not getting it! Why would you waste 2 mins of your life if...KEY WORD: _IF_ your client didn't even what that photo? And that 2 minutes adds up!
Say if you selected 50 of your favorite photos from a session. Then you cropped/sharpened/cloned/enhanced etc all those pics, but your client only liked about 20 from your set. Who knows.. they could of liked the ones that you didn't edit and they never even saw.

Basically what Im trying to do is save time. Im not trying to spend hours after a session editing pics if i don't have to. I just want to edit and enhance the ones they like. Most of the edits I do cant be done in a "batch" process or an action. I don't think batch cropping an image is a good idea. There are some enhancements that shouldn't be performed with an action or a batch process.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

joealcantar said:


> Can we have a thread without issues?  Getting old.
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> Shoot well, Joe



ugh.. theres someone in this thread that loves to bring drama to all my threads, or tries to "show me up"


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


> How can i be dense  do you make $15 in 2 minutes on your shoots ? *from what i have seen and read your shots would not be good enough SOOC*




Am I supposed to care what you _think_? LOL... have fun.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MTVision said:


> BTW - checked out your website.  I love the newborn pictures and the maternity pictures!



Thanks hun!


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## MWC2 (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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I don't want this to come off as rude or mean (because I'm really not that kind of person), but do you have any idea how snotty you come off in your posts? People here are trying to help YOU and you seem to be so unappreciative. 

Edit/don't edit. It's totally your call. Do whatever you think is right for your business, but don't be surprised when your sales start to fall short. The average person can not see the potential beauty of an image, what they will see is a less than sharp, non-pleasing snapshot. A photographer friend of mine told me once the reason she doesn't show SOOC images is because she doesn't want to be known as a "great photoshopper" she wants her clients to think of her as a "great photographer". Keep the magic tricks a secret, clients don't need to know the HOW just the WOW.

My husband keeps telling that there are just some people that are looking for drama in their lives for whatever reason, it doesn't matter the topic, they seek out attention/drama everywhere they go. Looks like you unwittingly proved him right... darn it I really hate when I have to tell him he was right about something, he'll gloat for weeks.


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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In lightroom you can edit 1 and apply that to all and just show them a slide show to pick which they want and just edit them it's simple


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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I was not trying to show you up i gave you advice and you insulted me but i can take it on the chin it's like water off a ducks back


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MWC2 said:


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That was not directed at you. I have a bad history on here with gsgary and other people on here who are just here to make people feel bad about their work.. 

I 100% agree with you on this:
*The average person can not see the potential beauty of an image, what  they will see is a less than sharp, non-pleasing snapshot.*
Which is why I'm not 100% that I want to do this. I think if I put a disclaimer in the proofing section and explain on my site that the proofs are unedited, but will be edited, corrected and enhanced once they select their photos...


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## brandibell (Aug 8, 2011)

joealcantar said:
			
		

> Can we have a thread without issues?  Getting old.
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> Shoot well, Joe



Lol agreed


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

gsgary said:


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Honestly... I don't ever want or need YOUR advice. You know what type of person you are and what you do. I insulted you? Playing the victim here??


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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You don't want anyones so why do you ask, you have had a camera 9 months and you think you know everything so **** you


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## Overread (Aug 8, 2011)

Come on guys this is getting old now - cool it down and lets not have another 5 pages of ranting and fighting!



As for the question in point:
"The average person can not see the potential beauty of an image, what they will see is a less than sharp, non-pleasing snapshot."

Is the key bit. Unless your workflow is such that you can get shots straight out of the camera which only need minor adjustments or fine detail changes not visible on smallsized preview images then don't show them shots right out of the camera. Instead you'll have to focus on streamlining your shooting and your workflow so that you're only preparing a few shots to show them rather than 100s for them to choose from. This will require streamlining at both the editing and the shooting stage of the process.


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## oldmacman (Aug 8, 2011)

Especially because RAW pics look terrible SOOC, I would not want to show a client anything close to what they can take with a PS camera. As the photog, your eye will be able to pick out the best images for your client. Maybe it's just me, but unless I am at an event, I don't shoot a lot of images. You have an idea of what the client wants and how you should shoot it. Cearly the best images should stand out from the session.


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## oldmacman (Aug 8, 2011)

Doh, typing so slow that overread beat me with essentially the same message.


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## gsgary (Aug 8, 2011)

Overread said:


> Come on guys this is getting old now - cool it down and lets not have another 5 pages of ranting and fighting!
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Your flogging a dead horse, she is going to show them no matter what we say, i'm out of here


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

oldmacman said:


> Especially because RAW pics look terrible SOOC, I would not want to show a client anything close to what they can take with a PS camera. As the photog, your eye will be able to pick out the best images for your client. Maybe it's just me, but unless I am at an event, I don't shoot a lot of images. You have an idea of what the client wants and how you should shoot it. Cearly the best images should stand out from the session.



Ugh! I forgot how raws look sooc. :x Maybe i can just give them all contrast using the synch and brighten them up all a bit before putting them in a gallery.

But to oldmacman and overread...I want perfection SOOC so I can minimize editing or so i DONT have to edit much..lol. But i like to do a lot of correction edits and enhancements.. blemish remover, skin smoothing, skin softening, fixing stray hairs, eye pops,, bright eyes, teeth whitening etc. I just feel like should i do all of this to a photo if they don't really like this photo/pose?


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## IgsEMT (Aug 8, 2011)

I rarely show unedited work. I did it 3 times, once the client used to be a model and understands that editing is needed to be done (she loved the final product). 2nd time was when my client was a colleague of mine and he was doing the editing on his own time  and 3rd when my wife and I were shooting our kids w/ our parents - we showed them unfinished and final product.


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## ababysean (Aug 8, 2011)

You can "soft edit" in LR.  That is what I've been doing.  and then anything I think needs more work like cloning if I'm shooting outside or if I feel in them mood to liquify a flabby arm or gut, I'll pull it into PS.

But I'd never show them a SOOC image.  nope.


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## EPPhoto (Aug 8, 2011)

I will sometimes show them certain images that I think look amazing, but I don't sit there and show them pic after pic in order.


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## Gaerek (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> How good of an idea is that? I think it's good so you don't have to waste your time editing ALL the pics from the session when they might not even like certain shots. So instead, once they choose what pics they want for CD or print, you just edit the ones that they selected.
> I'm asking because sometimes pics don't look good SOOC. (Lighting issues, wrinkles, things that need to be cloned out... etc.) and the client might think "wow these pics suck". Could it be a bad first impression showing SOOC images?



I think it's a great idea!


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## KmH (Aug 8, 2011)

Overread said:


> Come on guys this is getting old now - cool it down and lets not have another 5 pages of ranting and fighting!
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What is a business question "Presenting unedited SOOC pics to clients " doing in the beginners forum?



> Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics?  Don&#8217;t be shy!   _*Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here*_.   Show us some of the photos you have taken so far and get some review -  so you can learn where there is room for improvement!



For that matter, it may be useful to wonder why a photography business owner persists in posting in the beginners forum.


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## frisii (Aug 8, 2011)

Your customers are paying you for your services as Picture Editor/Art Director, as well as Camera/Mac Operator. I think you should only let them see the finished product.


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## MissCream (Aug 8, 2011)

I shoot yearly photos for two cheerleading teams and I DO show them the picture straight out of camera. If they don't like it I re-shoot it until they get one that they are happy with. I let them know that they will be edited so any blemishes will be taken care of. I was actually thinking about bringing my laptop next year and tethering it so that they can see it better then me zooming in on their face on the little LCD screen. This way I know that all the girls are happy with their pictures and I have never had to do a re-shoot.


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## frisii (Aug 8, 2011)

That makes sense. Let me modify my advice.. I think you should only send them the finished product.



MissCream said:


> I shoot yearly photos for two cheerleading teams and I DO show them the picture straight out of camera. If they don't like it I re-shoot it until they get one that they are happy with. I let them know that they will be edited so any blemishes will be taken care of. I was actually thinking about bringing my laptop next year and tethering it so that they can see it better then me zooming in on their face on the little LCD screen. This way I know that all the girls are happy with their pictures and I have never had to do a re-shoot.


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## Vtec44 (Aug 8, 2011)

I did a bunch of corporate head shots for my company, and I tethered my D7000 to my laptop to show the girls so they can decide if they want to reshoot.  I'm telling you, them girls are picky about their photos!  =)


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## Derrel (Aug 8, 2011)

If you wish to show SOOC JPEG images, then the best course of action is to set the sharpening in-camera to HIGH, crank the saturation up to 3/4 of maximum, and set the Tone Curve to be fairly contrasty. By doing this, the images coming right off the memory card are already quite "snappy" and vibrant. If your skill level is decent and your lighting good and your exposures are excellent, SOOC images are fine as proofs.


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## vtf (Aug 8, 2011)

You completely misunderstood gsgary, he does on the spot event photography and gets that good a shot out of the camera. Makes cash on the spot. You on the otherhand do not provide the quality sooc. I would edit those I felt worthy. A customer expects every shot to be a winner because you are the *pro*, we know they're not but do you want to disappoint your customer by showing them the ones that are oof, motion blur or just mistakes as you skim through the hundred. Really how many keepers do you have right now sooc perfect? They know some treatment will be done but this much? Really? Do you will really want to show them how bad you can be at times. 
By editing those worthy then presenting to customer you show them perfection, your image quailty goes up and stays up.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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 .....and most of your customers don't understand that....they just think you suck as a photographer and are showing them pictures that make them regret hiring you. You just pretty much answered your own question with that one. You completely missed the point he was trying to make. If you believe that you cannot be perfect SOOC, which I would tend to agree with you, then that would mean NEVER show anyone those pictures. ( Thats the point they were making, not trying to sound superior to you )


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

KmH said:


> Overread said:
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> > Come on guys this is getting old now - cool it down and lets not have another 5 pages of ranting and fighting!As for the question in point:"The average person can not see the potential beauty of an image, what they will see is a less than sharp, non-pleasing snapshot."Is the key bit. Unless your workflow is such that you can get shots straight out of the camera which only need minor adjustments or fine detail changes not visible on smallsized preview images then don't show them shots right out of the camera. Instead you'll have to focus on streamlining your shooting and your workflow so that you're only preparing a few shots to show them rather than 100s for them to choose from. This will require streamlining at both the editing and the shooting stage of the process.
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Maybe because I am a beginner? Maybe I should have posted this in a different section. I forget sometimes that their are other sections.  this seems like the catch all section.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

IgsEMT said:


> I rarely show unedited work. I did it 3 times, once the client used to be a model and understands that editing is needed to be done (she loved the final product). 2nd time was when my client was a colleague of mine and he was doing the editing on his own time  and 3rd when my wife and I were shooting our kids w/ our parents - we showed them unfinished and final product.


So do you still do it?


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

frisii said:


> That makes sense. Let me modify my advice.. I think you should only send them the finished product.
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I would never send them sooc images...lol. What I do is upload the sooc or lightly edited images on my site in their own gallery and they'll choose which ones they like.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

Derrel said:


> If you wish to show SOOC JPEG images, then the best course of action is to set the sharpening in-camera to HIGH, crank the saturation up to 3/4 of maximum, and set the Tone Curve to be fairly contrasty. By doing this, the images coming right off the memory card are already quite "snappy" and vibrant. If your skill level is decent and your lighting good and your exposures are excellent, SOOC images are fine as proofs.


This sounds good, but if I do this will the pics be over processed or too sharp/saturated/contrasty for the finalized images? I mean since I shoot in raw I'd be able to tone all that down for the finalized non pics right?


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## Overread (Aug 8, 2011)

I should take the moment to point out that there are different workflows in existence and one does not automatically trump the others in all instances. Some people perfect a straight out of camera workflow - sports photographers, those printing on site etc.. - they work their gear and skills to get a shot that will print well direct from the camera; whilst then there are others who (whilst certainly putting no less effort or quality into the shot) take photos which will not look their best until they have been more extensive edited. 

Photography is a two part process of capture and process - digital or film - and both stages are important toward developing the final item which is the print (that the client buys/paid for for pros).


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## MWC2 (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:
			
		

> I would never send them sooc images...lol. What I do is upload the sooc or lightly edited images on my site in their own gallery and they'll choose which ones they like.



You want to put unedited images in a client gallery that they will share the password with their friends?  Are you willing to have potential clients see unedited work and think those are the final product?

That is what is going to happen.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

vtf said:


> You completely misunderstood gsgary, he does on the spot event photography and gets that good a shot out of the camera. Makes cash on the spot. You on the otherhand do not provide the quality sooc. I would edit those I felt worthy. A customer expects every shot to be a winner because you are the *pro*, we know they're not but do you want to disappoint your customer by showing them the ones that are oof, motion blur or just mistakes as you skim through the hundred. Really how many keepers do you have right now sooc perfect? They know some treatment will be done but this much? Really? Do you will really want to show them how bad you can be at times. By editing those worthy then presenting to customer you show them perfection, your image quailty goes up and stays up.


None are absolutely perfect for me sooc because I shoot raw and I think you HAVE to edit raws. I like contrast, and I like to do those special edits as I stated earlier. SOOCs can be perfectly exposed, perfect WB etc. but still look... blah. I just like to add enhancements and pop to a photo that a camera cannot do.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 8, 2011)

You also have to consider your camera. A D3X is going to have much better on camera processing than a D5000. So for the pros printing on site, you have to consider their gear as well. If they have sharper lenses with better color contrast ( as well as the camera having better color overall ) they don't need as much post process sharpening and saturation and color adjustment. If they have a great eye for composition they probably strive to avoid cropping, and they most likely set custom WB.  So you have to make sure you are comparing things completely before you just say "well so and so did it" so it will work just as well for me.


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## SabrinaO (Aug 8, 2011)

MWC2 said:


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Sigh... I'm so torn. If you look on my site under proofs you will see I basically put "the gallery they are about to view is unedited... and pics will be finalized once they make their selection"I thought that would be enough... maybe not?


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## Derrel (Aug 8, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


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YES, the RAW images will still be quite malleable--it is only the in-camera created JPEG images that will be "juiced". Some people on here really ought to STFU--their opinions are worthless because they have no fricking idea what they are talking about with regard to the consumer Nikons like the D5000. If you set the image style to Direct Print or to Vivid and shoot RAW + JPEG, you'll have "proofs" ready to go, right out of the camera. The consumer-oriented Nikons have very punchy SOOC images when the various pre-sets are activated. It doesn't make sense to process images that clients do not want. One of **THE** most-critical things to do is to GET THE WHITE BALANCE SET RIGHT, so that the SOOC JPEGs look GOOD!!! If you want to show JPEGS SOOC, the white balance needs to be one that produces a pleasant image.


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## g-fi (Aug 8, 2011)

My clients don't choose what photos I will present to them for print purchasing. I do. I'm not a big box store photographer, I'm not a JcPenney's photographer, I don't make my money by charging 80 clients $50 for pics on a CD. My clients choose me because they like the pictures I make. They like my style, which is MY STYLE, and my taste in picking photos to be presented. 

I think that's all there is to say. I really have no desire to explain what a successful photography BUSINESS MODEL means when it comes to how much time you spend editing photos and how much you are being paid per hour for your time to someone who is so consistently rude to those who are actually helping them. You give your photos away on a CD for a pittance and don't even try to convert your sales to prints, albums, or canvases. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Even Wal-Mart knows better.


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## g-fi (Aug 8, 2011)

Are we SURE this isn't Jane Momtographer?


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## gsgary (Aug 9, 2011)

ababysean said:


> You can "soft edit" in LR.  That is what I've been doing.  and then anything I think needs more work like cloning if I'm shooting outside or if I feel in them mood to liquify a flabby arm or gut, I'll pull it into PS.
> 
> But I'd never show them a SOOC image.  nope.



How many times have i ****ing mentioned this


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## gsgary (Aug 9, 2011)

vtf said:


> You completely misunderstood gsgary, he does on the spot event photography and gets that good a shot out of the camera. Makes cash on the spot. You on the otherhand do not provide the quality sooc. I would edit those I felt worthy. A customer expects every shot to be a winner because you are the *pro*, we know they're not but do you want to disappoint your customer by showing them the ones that are oof, motion blur or just mistakes as you skim through the hundred. Really how many keepers do you have right now sooc perfect? They know some treatment will be done but this much? Really? Do you will really want to show them how bad you can be at times.
> By editing those worthy then presenting to customer you show them perfection, your image quailty goes up and stays up.




I only do that at events, any others they will not see them straight out of camera because they will be shot in raw


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## gsgary (Aug 9, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> vtf said:
> 
> 
> > You completely misunderstood gsgary, he does on the spot event photography and gets that good a shot out of the camera. Makes cash on the spot. You on the otherhand do not provide the quality sooc. I would edit those I felt worthy. A customer expects every shot to be a winner because you are the *pro*, we know they're not but do you want to disappoint your customer by showing them the ones that are oof, motion blur or just mistakes as you skim through the hundred. Really how many keepers do you have right now sooc perfect? They know some treatment will be done but this much? Really? Do you will really want to show them how bad you can be at times. By editing those worthy then presenting to customer you show them perfection, your image quailty goes up and stays up.
> ...




You have just answered your question again


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## RauschPhotography (Aug 9, 2011)

Oh boy. Sorry, but I skipped everything aside from the OP. Here's my opinion: I wouldn't show them the SOOC pictures. When I show my clients my work, it's going to be the complete, edited set. If they want to see a few on my camera after the shoot, awesome. I don't mind doing that, but I don't want to show them full-res, unedited work in its entirety.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 9, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Some people on here really ought to STFU--their opinions are worthless because they have no fricking idea what they are talking about with regard to the consumer Nikons like the D5000.



Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but given that it was just after my post, I will assume that it is.. I never said that the D5000 isn't capable of decent jpegs as proofs, I was arguing the misleading notion that just because many pros print on site, that this must mean that its a wise thing to do and that anyone can do it with a D5000 and limited skill set ( not meant to be a dig at the OP ) 

Besides, its a free world, you can show people whatever the hell you want. Snap some test shots with your iphone and give your customers those. Its your business and its your call. I think the OP has been given some honest feedback from both sides of the spectrum, so there isn't much sense in debating it into the ground, it now boils down to the OP making a decision. There are pros and cons of any decision.

PROS: less work, less time consuming
CONS: potential to harm reputation, potential to drive away customers.

Also, keep in mind that people usually would prefer not to know the truth. What I mean by that is, when you shoot someone with a bad complexion or whatever that needs some blemish removal, showing them the unedited ( even if processed in camera but no skin smoothing or cloning/healing done to blemishes) and telling them "I will remove the blemishes, can be not only insulting, but upsetting to the customer. It is much better for them to see the finished photo and feel happy, not realizing that you actually toned down their flaws a bit. That customer is going to go away thinking you are great, not because your composition was good and your colors popped, but because you made them look good. I mean at the end of the day, isn't that what portrait photography is all about?


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## SabrinaO (Aug 9, 2011)

g-fi said:


> My clients don't choose what photos I will present to them for print purchasing. I do. I'm not a big box store photographer, I'm not a JcPenney's photographer, I don't make my money by charging 80 clients $50 for pics on a CD. My clients choose me because they like the pictures I make. They like my style, which is MY STYLE, and my taste in picking photos to be presented.
> 
> I think that's all there is to say. I really have no desire to explain what a successful photography BUSINESS MODEL means when it comes to how much time you spend editing photos and how much you are being paid per hour for your time to someone who is so consistently rude to those who are actually helping them. You give your photos away on a CD for a pittance and don't even try to convert your sales to prints, albums, or canvases. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Even Wal-Mart knows better.



Was this directed at me? Because I havent been rude to anyone except the person who relentlessly tries to turn my threads to drama. Look at his first response. I get this attitude in all of my posts from him. 
Anyways.. i understand what you mean and I am rethinking everything. I would love to upsell and i dont see that happening if the first thing they see is drab unedited pics.


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## brandibell (Aug 9, 2011)

I was just wondering to the posters who choose which photos to give to clients do you ever have the client ask about why certain photos weren't edited or to see the rest and so on? Or do you edit every single photo then let the client pick a set amount and give them prints or images on a disc?  

Like I previously said I let my clients choose the images then edit them but I do a light edit first (never SOOC) and then the chosen photos I do skin touch ups, B&W etc etc. But after reading a lot of the post there are some really good points as to why that might not be the most business savvy way to go about it.


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## g-fi (Aug 9, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Was this directed at me? Because I havent been rude to anyone except the person who relentlessly tries to turn my threads to drama. Look at his first response. I get this attitude in all of my posts from him.
> Anyways.. i understand what you mean and I am rethinking everything. I would love to upsell and i dont see that happening if the first thing they see is drab unedited pics.




Yes this was directed at you. Yes, I have read your threads where you are incapable of taking constructive criticism from those who are trying to help you. No, I am not interested in arguing with you, or helping you build your business any further. You've had a ton of free business and photography technique advice, and you rarely, if ever, say thank you to those who take their time out to help you and seem to refuse to block those who you claim are targeting you, choosing instead to argue with them back and forth and back and forth AND BACK AND FORTH until your threads devolve into ridiculous name calling and yet you seem to not understand how ridiculous it makes YOU look. The only reason I responded to this thread in the first place was to hopefully provide others who are gawking at your trainwreck with my approach to proofing with my clients and maybe it will convince someone down the road to look at their photography as a BUSINESS and to consider why giving away pictures on a CD is a bad idea, and why showing your clients an unfinished product hurts your bottom line. I really could not care less if you succeed in your business. I'm not a business or photography guru, but I certainly won't spend more than 10 minutes giving away GOOD free advice to someone who is incapable of acting like a professional.


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## g-fi (Aug 9, 2011)

brandibell said:


> I was just wondering to the posters who choose which photos to give to clients do you ever have the client ask about why certain photos weren't edited or to see the rest and so on? Or do you edit every single photo then let the client pick a set amount and give them prints or images on a disc?



My contract with the client states that they will be presented x number of images to select prints from, and that I will choose what photos will be presented. I have had clients ask about shots that they don't see when we proof, and my response is always that I've selected images that I feel present them in the best, most flattering way. I don't edit every photo that I take, but I also don't take a crazy amount of photos during a session (the only exception to this is a newborn shoot when I may take hundreds of photos in order to have enough to clone together a certain shot). Clients do not see all of their shots, they do not see unedited shots, and since I don't give away CDs for free, they don't get to "pick" what pictures go on a CD. If a client chooses to purchase a CD, it will contain all of the edited shots that I have chosen. 

I guess I just don't get this "let the client pick their shots" thing, certainly clients should be choosing what images they want FOR THEIR PRINTS, or albums, or canvases, but I feel like I only want clients who are prepared to spend their money with me because they love what I do, and my taste, and are willing to let me do what I do best, and who are happy with the end result. My contract states that I am willing to work with a client to produce shots of their choice, but that I will retain creative control of MY WORK. You don't go to a Coach store and ask them to sell you a Louis Vuitton. Photography as a business is hard enough when you're doing what you want to do, when you hand all the control over to the client to dictate to you what you're going to do, or shoot, or edit, you're literally taking money out of your own pocket. *shrugs* Maybe I just don't get it. But I also don't give away CDs to my clients, so maybe that's where I get confused in all of this.


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## Gaerek (Aug 9, 2011)

SabrinaO said:
			
		

> Was this directed at me? Because I havent been rude to anyone except the person who relentlessly tries to turn my threads to drama. Look at his first response. I get this attitude in all of my posts from him.



Was this directed at me? Because I wasn't rude to you ever, until you decided to get defensive when I gave you good advice that didn't match up to how you thought the world (and your camera, and small businesses, in general) worked. You relentlessly turn your nose down on great advice you get from people who know FAR more about this industry than you do, while at the same time taking advice from people who have only had their camera for a month. Look at my first response. I've tried giving you good advice in the past, and I'd get attacked for it. So I thought I'd give you bad advice, and I didn't get a response. Pretty telling, really. Just remember, it was your emotions and your attitude first. Get it right next time you attempt to bring me up.


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## Derrel (Aug 9, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Some people on here really ought to STFU--their opinions are worthless because they have no fricking idea what they are talking about with regard to the consumer Nikons like the D5000.
> ...



Sorry, but no, it was not directed at you Goonies...it was directed elsewhere, toward others who are unfamiliar with the way the "consumer Nikon" cameras can deliver "eye-candy-like" JPEG images SOOC...you just happened to get caught in the crossfire. Same with people shooting with a custom tone curve loaded in to a professional-level Nikon camera. I have a "hot", custom tone curve for the D2x that can produce the punchiest, most-vibrant, most-saturated images SOOC by merely setting the camera to Minus 1.7 stops exposure compensation as the new baseline, and then dial in Custom Tone Curve #1...the images STRAIGHT OFF THE CARD are punchy, vibrant, and sharp...they look as if they would look if I hand-adjusted each one in Photoshop. With this tone curve, I get the widest-possible dynamic range, the highest saturation, and the "punchiest" color possible, straight off the card, with the images sharpened just right to look spectacular on-screen. I got the custom tone curve from a professional photographer who spent about three months developing it. I loaded it to the camera using Nikon Capture software.
There are "other" custom tone curves available, for people who understand HOW to make SOOC images that are fit to be seen by customers and editors, and which give a realistic approximation of the way a thoroughly tweaked raw file might look. The idea that each and every images "must be" processed before being seen by clients is a bit much, in my opinion.

This thread is, I see now, FILLED with "was this directed at me"??? questions!!!


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## frisii (Aug 9, 2011)

This is how i shoot these days. I use CC and grad color filters too.




Derrel said:


> ..shooting with a custom tone curve loaded in to a professional-level Nikon camera. I have a "hot", custom tone curve for the D2x that can produce the punchiest, most-vibrant, most-saturated images SOOC by merely setting the camera to Minus 1.7 stops exposure compensation as the new baseline, and then dial in Custom Tone Curve #1...the images STRAIGHT OFF THE CARD are punchy, vibrant, and sharp...they look as if they would look if I hand-adjusted each one in Photoshop. With this tone curve, I get the widest-possible dynamic range, the highest saturation, and the "punchiest" color possible, straight off the card, with the images sharpened just right to look spectacular on-screen. I got the custom tone curve from a professional photographer who spent about three months developing it. I loaded it to the camera using Nikon Capture software.
> There are "other" custom tone curves available, for people who understand HOW to make SOOC images that are fit to be seen by customers and editors, and which give a realistic approximation of the way a thoroughly tweaked raw file might look. The idea that each and every images "must be" processed before being seen by clients is a bit much, in my opinion.
> 
> This thread is, I see now, FILLED with "was this directed at me"??? questions!!!


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## SabrinaO (Aug 9, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, that was directed at GSGARY. But you too are guilty of that too. I don't turn my nose down to ANY advice at all.. and I take _constructive_ critism with open arms. I just turn my nose down to the APPROACH at what people give it at. Why is that so hard to understand? You did give good advice... but you were a self-righteous, sarcastic asshole about it when you gave it. Is that necessary? How do you expect anyone to look past that? It's like making someone a cake, but spitting in it before you give it to them. Then expect them to be grateful that you made them a cake. :er: Ok... so you don't want to spoon feed people? Then don't respond to my OP's. I mean its that simple.


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## CCericola (Aug 9, 2011)

I think it all comes down to how you learned to shoot. The studio I worked for after college only provided paper proofs to wedding customers and graduates. For a typical portrait we took the pictures then developed the negatives. The customer saw the negatives projected on a screen and made their choices. Retouching was done by hand either to the negative or the print depending on what was to be done. If the customer wanted black and white with selective color a black and white print was made and we hand painted them. 

Negative may not have been retouched but we still only showed the best of the best. Even shooting film the customer only saw the negatives we chose to show them. The rejects were left in a waste basket and the others were carded while the customer enjoyed refreshments and looked through our catalog of products for sale. 

I don't think SOOC proofing is professional or good for sales. If you want to proof SOOC, go work for those 1 hour portrait studios in the mall.


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## Geaux (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't even show SOOC pictures on my facebook or show my family and I'm not a professional or charge money for any of my shots.  I pride myself on putting out the best product, not only in photography, but in anything I do.  So no, I wouldn't give SOOC shots to a client that I'm getting money for, for them to publicly put them out there.


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## gsgary (Aug 9, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Gaerek said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...




Your the drama queen, i bet your customer relations are first class


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## brandibell (Aug 9, 2011)

g-fi said:
			
		

> My contract with the client states that they will be presented x number of images to select prints from, and that I will choose what photos will be presented. I have had clients ask about shots that they don't see when we proof, and my response is always that I've selected images that I feel present them in the best, most flattering way. I don't edit every photo that I take, but I also don't take a crazy amount of photos during a session (the only exception to this is a newborn shoot when I may take hundreds of photos in order to have enough to clone together a certain shot). Clients do not see all of their shots, they do not see unedited shots, and since I don't give away CDs for free, they don't get to "pick" what pictures go on a CD. If a client chooses to purchase a CD, it will contain all of the edited shots that I have chosen.
> 
> I guess I just don't get this "let the client pick their shots" thing, certainly clients should be choosing what images they want FOR THEIR PRINTS, or albums, or canvases, but I feel like I only want clients who are prepared to spend their money with me because they love what I do, and my taste, and are willing to let me do what I do best, and who are happy with the end result. My contract states that I am willing to work with a client to produce shots of their choice, but that I will retain creative control of MY WORK. You don't go to a Coach store and ask them to sell you a Louis Vuitton. Photography as a business is hard enough when you're doing what you want to do, when you hand all the control over to the client to dictate to you what you're going to do, or shoot, or edit, you're literally taking money out of your own pocket. *shrugs* Maybe I just don't get it. But I also don't give away CDs to my clients, so maybe that's where I get confused in all of this.



Thanks for the info that makes a lot of sense. I definitely am re-thinking my choice to let clients choose which images are edited.


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## SrBiscuit (Aug 9, 2011)

It's been awhile since I've visited good ol' TPF...nice to see things haven't changed a bit.


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