# Hobbyist or Small Business?



## Jeanelle (Jan 24, 2011)

I have tried to look on here for an answer to this but have not figured out how to do a search.  I have a full time job, but also do some photography on the side.  I want to keep everything on the up and up, but I can't really seem to find what I am looking for in the way of answers.  I want to know if since I am taking some payment for my services if I have to consider myself a small business?  Do I have to charge sales tax?  I live in Kansas, and does anyone know what I need to do to keep myself out of any hot water?  From what I can tell, the difference is that a business can report losses, and a hobbyist can make itemized deductions up to the amount that they earned.  Anything else that I should know?  As of right now I am not looking to start up a business, but maybe someday.


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## Jeanelle (Jan 24, 2011)

I just want some general advice on what everyone does.  What is the norm of what is done if you aren't doing it to run a business?


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## BKMOOD (Jan 25, 2011)

You should probably talk to an accountant and/or an organization that deals with small businesses.


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## Big Mike (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes...you best bet would be to talk to your local city/county government, to find out if you need any sort of business permit.  They might be able to advise you on other things you need to do, but talking to an accountant or even a small business adviser at your bank, will be a good idea.


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## tirediron (Jan 25, 2011)

That took about 30 seconds...


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## Jeanelle (Jan 26, 2011)

I have an appointment with an accountant this coming week, thanks for all the advice guys.  I feel a lot better with the guy that I am going to go see now, the first one I called they acted really belittling that I would want to come talk to them about this.  I thought that maybe I was being stupid for trying to do that, so thank you all for giving me a bit of advice.  I just wanted to make sure that I was heading in the right direction.


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## Big Mike (Jan 27, 2011)

It will help if you are well prepared for your meeting....because they will likely have some questions to ask you, and if you don't know the answers, they won't be able to help you.

For example, what do you plan to charge for your services?  How many jobs/gigs do you expect (per month on average)?  In other words, have a business plan...or at least the start of one written down.  
What portion of your residence will be dedicated to your business?  For example, if you have a home office for your business, that can likely be a write-off, which may mean that a portion of your mortgage/rent/utilities etc. may also be written off, proportionally to how much you use them for your business.


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## Y. A. PIX. (Jan 27, 2011)

I am starting an online photography business that should be up and running within the next couple days. Given that I have some spare days before the launch of the website, I am on here looking for advice. First let me give a website description:

The site is exclusively for young adults, age 13-21. This is simply because teens have to sign up on those other sites and compete to be recognized with those serious hobbyists or amatuers, or even pros. My site will allow them to sign up and build their own professional looking portfolio to share in any way they care to do so. 

With that said - do I need specific disclaimers to keep me from getting in any kind of trouble? I am the only moderator and every picture submitted has to be approved through me first (to keep unwanted or risque pictures at bay). There will be an option to buy photos from my site as well, and there is a disclaimer when signing up that says all photos submitted are the property of the site and can be sold. 

Any ideas/suggestions/advice are greatly welcomed.  

Thanks,


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## KmH (Jan 27, 2011)

Explore your possible liability/protections if any of those 13-21 year olds upload photos to your web site someone else owns the copyright to (copyright infringement).

For the US - www.copyright.gov

DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) Digital Millennium Copyright Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

International - Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works: Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Y. A. PIX. (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks, I am going to be looking at that information while my students write an essay


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## orljustin (Jan 27, 2011)

Y. A. PIX. said:


> all photos submitted are the property of the site and can be sold.



Really?  You're claiming copyright of the images just because they are submitted?  Perhaps you'd like to restate that.

Also, shall we assume you've into the legaltiy of entering into legal contracts dealing with money and things with people under 18?

I'm not sure why this market cannot make portfolios as they like at any other site that already does like.  What do you think they are "competing" for with other people?  A portfolio is for displaying your work, not for "competing".


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 27, 2011)

Y. A. PIX. said:


> With that said - do I need specific disclaimers to keep me from getting in any kind of trouble? I am the only moderator and every picture submitted has to be approved through me first (to keep unwanted or risque pictures at bay). *There will be an option to buy photos from my site as well, and there is a disclaimer when signing up that says all photos submitted are the property of the site and can be sold. *
> 
> Any ideas/suggestions/advice are greatly welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,


 
Fail.


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## KmH (Jan 27, 2011)

orljustin said:


> Y. A. PIX. said:
> 
> 
> > all photos submitted are the property of the site and can be sold.
> ...


A use license embedded in the TOS can grant the right for resale without a copyright transfer. Many photography contests do it.

But, it's pretty obvious Y. A. Pix has some, uh, flaws in their business model, and had no qualms hijacking someone else's thread.


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## orljustin (Jan 27, 2011)

I think it's pretty obvious YA didn't really think through his new "business" much.


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## Y. A. PIX. (Jan 28, 2011)

The business has not launched yet guys. So, that would be the purpose in throwing out what "plan", a.k.a. foundation of thoughts, I was attempting. Instead of a "fail" comment, or " I think it's pretty obvious YA didn't really think through his new "business" much", a simple suggestions, like I was asking for, would benefit. I am new to all of this, wish starting a business. 
I am an English teacher at the moment that has always had a passion for photography. I am starting the site to encourage photography and promote creativity and constant learning (what I thought I would get on here).  

Please, before you criticize, take some time to look at my concerns for the business and suggest/comment. 

Also, studio 101 what does " [he] had no qualms hijacking someone else's thread" mean?


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## orljustin (Jan 28, 2011)

Y. A. PIX. said:


> The business has not launched yet guys. So, that would be the purpose in throwing out what "plan", a.k.a. foundation of thoughts, I was attempting. Instead of a "fail" comment, or " I think it's pretty obvious YA didn't really think through his new "business" much", a simple suggestions, like I was asking for, would benefit. I am new to all of this, wish starting a business.
> I am an English teacher at the moment that has always had a passion for photography. I am starting the site to encourage photography and promote creativity and constant learning (what I thought I would get on here).
> 
> Please, before you criticize, take some time to look at my concerns for the business and suggest/comment.
> ...



It means you posted something that had nothing to do with the original post.  You hijacked the thread for your own topic.  Same as you did here:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/78748-question-about-photo-licensing.html

And yes, "simple suggestions"?  When, as you say "I am starting an online photography business that should be up and running within the next couple days."  If you have everything set up for a business that will be online next Monday, yet you know nothing about licensing images (from the other thread) although that seems to be the main focus of your 'business', then I would say you haven't thought much through.


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## Y. A. PIX. (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, I clearly did not mean to "hijack a thread", but I could not find an answer to something that was similarly related to what I, personally, was trying to achieve. 

I see that I need to be completely explicit in my writing here.   The website will launch, figuratively, not literally. It will be 100% done from the end of the web disigner. I am not allowing it to be "on the market" until I clearly define all the terms of agreement. licensing agreements, etc. 

I have looked up/researched a lot about this topic. This business idea has been going on for 2 years. I am still having issues finding, online, the information regarded to what I am doing. I only wanted to sell photos to make it easier for relatives or friends to obtain work. Again, this is exclusively for 13-21 year olds to build their portfolio or expand their creative ability. I just wanted a place where the teens could call their own and be proud to showcase as their own.


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## KmH (Jan 28, 2011)

That you are having issues finding information online regarding what you are wanting to do, is because online is the wrong place to be looking.

You should be consulting with a qualified attorney.


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## Y. A. PIX. (Jan 28, 2011)

orljustin said:


> Y. A. PIX. said:
> 
> 
> > The business has not launched yet guys. So, that would be the purpose in throwing out what "plan", a.k.a. foundation of thoughts, I was attempting. Instead of a "fail" comment, or " I think it's pretty obvious YA didn't really think through his new "business" much", a simple suggestions, like I was asking for, would benefit. I am new to all of this, wish starting a business.
> ...


 
Your tone seems to signify that you are upset. Let me clarify that my status says that I am NEW to the site. I have never decided to join a forum and I was, clearly, unsure of where to post categorically. So, I decided that I would post prematurely to finding the exact thread. I am learning and I want to learn more and to do this, I may make some mistakes. 

Calm down, take a breath, and answer in a way that I can, in fact, learn from your great all-knowing wisdom. I am open to doing so....


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## Patrice (Jan 28, 2011)

Y. A. PIX. said:


> Calm down, take a breath, and answer in a way that I can, in fact, learn from your great all-knowing wisdom. I am open to doing so....



OK, just say sorry to the original poster since it's her thread and start your own in this same board. Not a big deal but there is forum etiquette one needs to be familiar with. I got my fingers slapped a time or two, it's part of learning.

Why not allow purchasing the photos with permission of the copyright holder and redirect the funds to the photographer? (Continue this in a new thread.)


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## Jeanelle (Jan 28, 2011)

Also, studio 101 what does " [he] had no qualms hijacking someone else's thread" mean?[/QUOTE]

It means that I created this thread for advice about my question, and you "hijacked" it and made it about you.  

@ everyone else, thanks so much for the advice, I will be spending time writing stuff down to have it ready for my appointment!


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## Jeanelle (Jan 28, 2011)

Jeanelle said:


> Also, studio 101 what does " [he] had no qualms hijacking someone else's thread" mean?



It means that I created this thread for advice about my question, and you "hijacked" it and made it about you.  

@ everyone else, thanks so much for the advice, I will be spending time writing stuff down to have it ready for my appointment![/QUOTE]


Sorry, I didn't see that someone had addressed it, I was responding from my email!


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## dnavarrojr (Jan 28, 2011)

Jeanelle,

Kudos on meeting with an accountant.  That said (I live in Topeka), I just went to the IRS office downtown and asked them what I should do.  They also suggested an accountant, but said the most important thing was claiming the income and paying taxes on it.  Depending on how much you make, the taxes taken out of your paychecks might not be enough to cover any taxes you owe.

Washburn University has a "small business" school and they do free consultations.  Their advice was for me to form an LLC and think about withholding more from my paychecks...  It ended up being a moot point, as I got laid off a couple weeks later and since I was in the process of setting up a business, I just took it to the next step.

Also, my father owned a number of restaurants when I was growing up and got himself into a lot of trouble by doing his own taxes.  So I didn't want to take any chances and I have a part-time accountant that goes over all my books 1 day a month and handles all my quarterly and yearly taxes.  Next to (some of) my lenses and my daughter's college education, it's the best money I ever spent.


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## Jeanelle (Feb 1, 2011)

dnavarrojr said:


> Jeanelle,
> 
> Kudos on meeting with an accountant.  That said (I live in Topeka), I just went to the IRS office downtown and asked them what I should do.  They also suggested an accountant, but said the most important thing was claiming the income and paying taxes on it.  Depending on how much you make, the taxes taken out of your paychecks might not be enough to cover any taxes you owe.
> 
> ...



Wow thanks for the advice!  I am on the right track so far it seems!  I am keeping good records of everything I am making so that I can keep all my taxes in order.  I just didn't want to get in trouble because of the question of small business or hobbyist type of issue.  I do not consider myself a business as of yet, even though that is where I would like to progress to someday.  I have a full time job, and right now I am just doing this in whatever little bit of free time that I have!


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