# Are Mac's worth the price premium?



## rpm (Mar 15, 2012)

Since getting an iPad and an iPhone I must confess the ecosystem is probably the only thing tempting me right now. ATM being a student I live and breathe through a laptop (Asus N55SF which I recently purchased to push aside my former HP). The aforementioned ecosystem drooling occurred after getting the laptop. with the student discounts I am tempted in purchasing a copy of ps or lightroom (at discount they're both within the same price range here). Well long story short, I've been looking at the other side these days (despite my gaming tendencies raising objection - however I am more into consoles than pc gaming but I do dabble with the RTS genre on it). I must say I am shocked as to how Apple is the only company who has managed to shrink their laptop chargers/adapters but anyway. is OS X and Macs really worth the price premium? currently I've been using evernote and dropbox to go around the lack of iCloud link with Windows and its perfect. I guess hardware wise Apple has a good edge but price wise...I don't know and would like user feedback from you guys on the forum. Oh (1) I've never had severe issues with Windows and nor do I find it 'hard' to do any tasks with (2) I'm an IT student and fairly aware that the majority of problems is hardware more often than not and design methadology between the two systems make it hard to compare (3) can anyone tell me how well does Parallels run? a lot of the software I use for uni remains Window only


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## Jeff92 (Mar 15, 2012)

Call me simple but I have no probably.manually syncing my devices with a pc.  I have used macs before and they are really nice but I would personally take a decked out windows machine over an overpriced mac anyday lol. (Don't hate)

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Hardware-wise, isn't everything pretty much equal these days?  (Parts are parts ... and computers are just parts...)

I use Linux, personally, but my computer is more than capable of running any OS out there ... I just prefer Linux.

If you use a lot of Windows only software, like you said, that should pretty much tell you what to get...  If you want a new OS, you'll have to find new software first.

I can't think of anything I use a computer for that there isn't free software for, but some people don't like open source/free software for whatever reason...  Maybe they just don't know that they can get the same thing for free...


What "windows only" software do you use?


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## rpm (Mar 15, 2012)

Microsoft Project, Visio, Visual Studio - academia related and potentially professionally when I move forward.


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## Natalie (Mar 15, 2012)

I dunno if it's any different now, but when I was in the laptop market in 2009, I found that even the best MacBook Pros couldn't compete with available PCs despite being way more expensive. Here were some of the things I noticed about MacBooks (keep in mind it was back in 2009 so things might have changed).
- No high definition screens, that is at least 1080p. For photo editing, the more resolution you can get the better. It also means you can't watch high definition video.
- Slower processors, but given how far processors have come in the past three years, it's basically a moot point.
- Slower hard drives... 5400 RPM 500GB on a MacBook Pro vs 7200 RPM 500 GB on most of the PCs.
- No HDMI ports, so you can't plug your computer into anything (these ports come in handy when you want to put video or display photos on an HDTV).
- No Blu-ray players/writers, although no point in having those since you can't watch HD video anyway.
- Graphics cards weren't as good, but again, this is something that changes a lot in three years.
- Less RAM... I think the most I could get on a Mac was 4GB, but I wanted 8GB.

And there was a bunch of other minor stuff that I can't remember because it was three years ago. But basically, for $1800 I got a laptop that was way better than anything Apple even had to offer, even in their $3000 decked-out MacBook Pro (I think that's how much they cost at the time). Definitely shop around, but it still seems like you'd be able to build your own computer that's way better and less expensive than a Mac.

Luckily computers and gadgets aren't like DSLRs... You can get an iPhone (I have one) and it'll still work fine with your PC. There's really no reason to get a Mac just so the operating systems on your devices are the same.


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Do your professors demand a specific file type for you reports or whatever?  Because all of that stuff can be done without Microsoft...

Even if you have to save as a Windows file type, you can almost always do that under Linux.

I'm not saying you have to run Linux - but I am saying that you should consider it.  Look into it and decide whether it's for you or not.  Just sayin' ... there's more out there than just Windows and Mac...


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Natalie said:


> I dunno if it's any different now, but when I was in the laptop market in 2009, I found that even the best MacBook Pros couldn't compete with available PCs despite being way more expensive. Here were some of the things I noticed about MacBooks (keep in mind it was back in 2009 so things might have changed).
> - No high definition screens, that is at least 1080p. For photo editing, the more resolution you can get the better. It also means you can't watch high definition video.
> - Slower processors, but given how far processors have come in the past three years, it's basically a moot point.
> - Slower hard drives... 5400 RPM 500GB on a MacBook Pro vs 7200 RPM 500 GB on most of the PCs.
> ...



Computers are just parts...

You can buy whatever parts you want and put whatever OS you want on it.


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## rpm (Mar 15, 2012)

hey Natalie a lot of your points are still the same. when i was looking for laptop i did also look at mac book pros in the process...

i paid 1300 and i got a 15inch 1920x1080p resolution screen, quad core i7, 8gb ram, gt555m 2GB gpu, bluray player, amazing speakers (bang and olufsen) coupled with a bundled subwoofer for the laptop (nice and small too combined makes the best speaker system built into a laptop ever) and it happens to come with a full keyboard with number pad. only thing missing? an IPS screen...and maybe a full metal body for sturdiness otherwise ya. no MBP touches that at that price point. not even the 17inch with its high res screen when you factor in a near 3000 price tag...

i would have loved to see a lenovo U300s type laptop with the above specs with their full aluminium body or even a larger Zenbook from Asus themselves....otherwise a big thing about Mac laptops has to be their ability to last


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 15, 2012)

"Are Mac's worth the price premium?"

No. 

I have a somewhat unique perspective. I sold Apple computers part time through college. Always been a windows guy. In fact i am typing this on an iPad 2. So I've seen both sides of the coin, extensively. 

Take that 2k you'd spend on a mediocre Mac built with hardware years behind the curve and go buy/build yourself a beast to be reckoned with. 

Like I always say to Apple users, "give us the same budget to buy a computer and I'll find a PC that does everything your Mac does, runs twice as fast, has better individual components and could probably barbecue me a hamburger if I asked nicely. "


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

I am Linux (home built and store bought) and Mac user for home and work (in software development).   I even have a dual boot hackintosh but rarely booted in Windows..  If you have to ask, then No.

A windows machine from any other vendor built to their commercial specs will cost also have a high price tag.  Comparing anything store bought to home built is not really a comparison.   Home built PC will also be cheaper than even other non-apple branded machines....  at that point its not amcomparison between Apple vs X, its a comparison between home spec'd and X.


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## digital flower (Mar 15, 2012)

Macs are more expensive?  I wouldn't know since I didnt consider buying anything else but I didn't need the latest or fastest computer. MY MBP seems to do everything I want it to fast enough (like processing large batches of photos). It was an easy decision after using the the wife's Dell laptop a few times. The filing/folder system on the Mac is superior for my needs and I seem to have found software for everything I want it do. The screen is wonderful and it hooked into my home network flawlessly ( about 2 minutes to get get everything connected).

The speed/power issue reminds me of when I went to purchase a new Dodge Ram truck a few years ago (still have it). The salesmen insisted that I needed the V10 model because it was faster and more powerful but I resisted and got the 5.9 V8 model instead. We all know what happened to gas prices and I still have plenty of power.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 15, 2012)

Are Mac's worth the price premium?
No.


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## Tommo (Mar 15, 2012)

digital flower said:


> Macs are more expensive?  I wouldn't know since I didnt consider buying anything else but I didn't need the latest or fastest computer. MY MBP seems to do everything I want it to fast enough (like processing large batches of photos). It was an easy decision after using the the wife's Dell laptop a few times. The filing/folder system on the Mac is superior for my needs and I seem to have found software for everything I want it do. The screen is wonderful and it hooked into my home network flawlessly ( about 2 minutes to get get everything connected).
> 
> The speed/power issue reminds me of when I went to purchase a new Dodge Ram truck a few years ago (still have it). The salesmen insisted that I needed the V10 model because it was faster and more powerful but I resisted and got the 5.9 V8 model instead. We all know what happened to gas prices and I still have plenty of power.



  What screen setting do you use on your MPB when editing photos cause i find when i edit photos on my MBP the photos lack the colour and contrast i get when i plug my MBP into my sony TV and view the same photo. (it looks 10 times better on the TV)


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## ann (Mar 15, 2012)

Since I am a visual person, I love the looks of a MAC and have considered them more than once.

However, I went to my local Apple Store and discussed my needs, etc with them ; and based on my software,etc. they told me I would be better sticking with a PC as by the time I ran a parallel system I would be losing the very function most love about a  mac. I was surprised but found their honesty to be refreshing.

Late last year I got another new PC basically for my Photo work only, and even with all the upgrades it was still less expensive than the largest MAC tower. 

Just my two cents.


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## TheBiles (Mar 15, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Natalie said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno if it's any different now, but when I was in the laptop market in 2009, I found that even the best MacBook Pros couldn't compete with available PCs despite being way more expensive. Here were some of the things I noticed about MacBooks (keep in mind it was back in 2009 so things might have changed).
> ...


 
Not Macs.  You can only install OSX on Apple-approved hardware. Meaning, you have to take the unbelievably over-priced trash that they throw out to you.  Windows or Linux are are only ways to go if you want to build your own rig with total freedom.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## TheBiles (Mar 15, 2012)

digital flower said:


> Macs are more expensive?  I wouldn't know since I didnt consider buying anything else but I didn't need the latest or fastest computer. MY MBP seems to do everything I want it to fast enough (like processing large batches of photos). It was an easy decision after using the the wife's Dell laptop a few times. The filing/folder system on the Mac is superior for my needs and I seem to have found software for everything I want it do. The screen is wonderful and it hooked into my home network flawlessly ( about 2 minutes to get get everything connected).
> 
> The speed/power issue reminds me of when I went to purchase a new Dodge Ram truck a few years ago (still have it). The salesmen insisted that I needed the V10 model because it was faster and more powerful but I resisted and got the 5.9 V8 model instead. We all know what happened to gas prices and I still have plenty of power.


 
Macs are on the order of twice as expensive as a comparable Windows laptop. Good job being an informed consumer.  

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't know... if it works for digital flower and he/she is completely happy I can't see that being "misinformed".    There's no reason to force oneself to use what is perceive as an inferior "filing/folder" system just because someone call "TheBiles" says so much less because there are cheaper alternatives.   


Many Linux guys say similar things... Why the hell pay for a POS Windows O/S?

Maybe they know something you don't?



Off topic... for those familiar with windows administration.  I've been trying to figure this out on one of our windows file servers that contain a mix of files.  What's the equivalent of this?

find . -name "*.jar" | xargs -I{} mv {} {}.old

Its not one of my development machines so loading cygwin (or similar) is not an option.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 15, 2012)

rpm said:


> Currently my software is well...borrowed...but with the student discounts I am tempted in having my own copy. y



Is "Borrowed software" a euphemism for "Stolen Software"?


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## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

For me they are, or at least the Macbook is.  I am a heavy notebook user, literally everyday for many hours a day. Prior to getting mine, I had two other platic windows laptops.  After 18 months, each were worn, cracked, broken, battery underperforming, etc...  After having owned my aluminum Macbook for over 30 months now, I can honestly say that I would pay the extra $400 premium over my previous windows laptop JUST for the aluminum chassis with glass touchpad.  The entire notebook still  looks and performs like new.  I also still get 6+ hours on battery which is much more than the 2.5hrs I ever got on a windows laptop.


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## CCericola (Mar 15, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> Are Mac's worth the price premium?
> No.



Yes, and when you purchase your mac you get a "My farts don't stink" membership pin. 

<---Is a Mac user)


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

All Mac users must own a black mock turtleneck..... its a rule.  lol


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## molested_cow (Mar 15, 2012)

The only think I'd take Mac over "the rest" is its display. Macs tend to have excellent but expensive monitors.

Other than that, it's the matter of preference and convenience.

PCs are cheaper for reasons that make Macs more expensive. You mentioned about the huge PC laptop chargers. I agree! This is because PC companies want to cut cost, so they source ready made parts off OEM suppliers, which means the same parts probably are made for many many different models. The volume cuts down its cost, but since it is not designed specifically for that one particular laptop, its design is not in the most efficient manner.

So it comes down to whether you can deal with these "sacrifices". Size, weight, material, aesthetics etc. Can you live with these "deficiencies"? Is the price difference justifiable? 

If you do get a PC laptop, I'd urge you to make sure you are picking the one with a good display. See it in person. Take your ipad along to compare with it. I kinda regretted getting mine online because I didn't have the chance to see it in person.


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## Derrel (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, Macs are worth the premium over Windows machines. Just as Coca~Cola is worth the price premium over Shasta cola. The same way a Mercedes is worth the price premium over a Kia. The same way wild, troll-caught Pacific salmon from Oregon or Washington or California is worth the price premium over pond-reared, Mexican tilapia. The same way gourmet coffee beans are worth the price premium over Folger's crystals. Macs last a long time, and work reliably without much effort. Macintosh hardware and the software is made by the same company, so it actually works. Hey, if you drive a Kia....fine. If you want to eat tilapia, fine. If you like Folger's crystal's instant coffee, well, God will take pity on you some day.

For photography work, the Mac's system of allowing the user to color-code files and folders is a Godsend. That makes it possible to search for files based not on name or date but on "qualities or characteristics" the files or folders or discs possess. Would you like to find folders that have already been backed up and moved to another hard drive? If you have color-coded them on your Mac, you can find those folders in seconds. Want to find ALL OF YOUR BEST IMAGES, across a terrabyte of storage, no matter where they are? ON your Mac, if you have labeled the best photos, you can do a search based on the color code, and find those files, and have them displayed in a finder window in a very short time-without the need to know the names or locations of any of the images.


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## Canuk (Mar 15, 2012)

I have owned several "Top End" windows based gaming laptops. There isn't a Mac laptop build that can compare spec wise.....

That being said every one of the Windows machines, had issues. Often requiring service calls and outright replacements of the machines (I'm talking about custom ordered $4000+ machines)

I recently bought my first Macbook Pro. It runs faster and way cooler than any PC that I have owned without any of the problems of the Windows OS. The thing that most people fail to recognise is that the Mac OS system has a much smaller draw on the computer and requires much less hardware to do the same job.


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## RedLeg (Mar 15, 2012)

I got an iMac last year after my dell kept having software problems. I had to bring the thing to get fixed twice within 6 months. it was wicked slow, it would take 10 minutes for the thing to power on, the fan would come on like a frieght train when nobody was even when nobody was using the thing. I tried cleaning the case out and making sure there was good ventalation. I made sure i didnt have programs running in the background that werent needed and the thing still ran like a pig. 
i bought a $1300 iMac and couldnt be happier. when i power it on its ready to use in 20 seconds, there is no noise from the fan, no error messages....the machine just works and i have no problem paying a little extra for a machine that works so well.


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

Canuk said:


> I have owned several "Top End" windows based gaming laptops. There isn't a Mac laptop build that can compare spec wise.....
> 
> That being said every one of the Windows machines, had issues. Often requiring service calls and outright replacements of the machines (I'm talking about custom ordered $4000+ machines)
> 
> I recently bought my first Macbook Pro. It runs faster and way cooler than any PC that I have owned without any of the problems of the Windows OS. The thing that most people fail to recognise is that the Mac OS system has a much smaller draw on the computer and requires much less hardware to do the same job.



I think this is the key here.... Most compare Mac versus X through paper specs alone.  Among that group, there are Windows users who have never given Mac OS X a good try.  Among Mac OS X users, the number of them with a significant experience with Windows (OS and hardware) is pretty darn close to 100%.


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## chuasam (Mar 15, 2012)

Is it worth it? Hell Yes. I like being able to buy a machine, a beautiful one at that...and just use it. It's only money but the joy of using a Mac far outweighs a paltry premium. Think of the Mac as a luxury product that it is. The premium is merely the entry fee for this club. 

Americans have the idiotic idea of buying the cheapest possible thing regardless of the costs. This has given to the rise of questionable farming practices and junk food. It's always about buying more rather than buying better.


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## DScience (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, very much worth the price.


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## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)




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## Gromit801 (Mar 15, 2012)

Wow, a lot of MS Koolaid drinkers in here.

I work as a graphic artist.  Our shop went 100% Mac platform (for everything) because of the horrendous downtime created by Windows and crappy PCs.

Is a Mac worth the extra price?  Is a BMW worth more than a Yugo?  Computers are more than just the sum of their parts.  OSX is far superior to any version of Windows.  It just works better, and lasts longer.  My first computer was a 1987 Mac Plus.  It still works.  My faithful 2005 Mac G5 was on the repair shop last year because the power supply went out after six years of nearly non-stop running.  Most PC users I know have gone through a few machines in that amount of time.  Never had a virus, and don't have to run a virus app in the background slowing things down.  OSX Base is Unix, which is an inherently tougher nut to hack than that swiss cheese called windows.  You can run four different OS on a modern Mac:  OSX, UNIX, LINUX, and Windows.  Über flex there.


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## CCericola (Mar 15, 2012)

What's a Yugo?


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Gromit801 said:


> Is a BMW worth more than a Yugo?  Computers are more than just the sum of their parts.


Does a BMW have the same parts in it as a Yugo?


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## chuasam (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Yes, Macs are worth the premium over Windows machines. Just as Coca~Cola is worth the price premium over Shasta cola.


Cocacola isn't worth the price premium over Shasta. Both are just as rubbish. One merely tastes less vile.

In the photography industry, Macs are considered standard.

Apple is an innovator. If they had to deal with the same crappy profit margins as the horde, would they be able to produce such amazing works of electronic beauty?


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## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

Gromit801 said:


> My faithful 2005 Mac G5 was on the repair shop last year because the power supply went out after six years of nearly non-stop running.



Wow! You took your computer to the shop to get the power supply replaced! Dude, I so want to be your auto mechanic!

Joe


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## Canuk (Mar 15, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Gromit801 said:
> 
> 
> > Is a BMW worth more than a Yugo?  Computers are more than just the sum of their parts.
> ...



The problem w/ comparing parts is that a lot of PC's use parts that have not been tested for compatibly or are not entirely compatible w/ each other. 

Mac on the other hand does test and ensure that X-montherboard works w/ Y-graphics card that works w/ Z-processor.  The same can not be said for a lot of PC's.


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Well, if you use incompatible parts, it's your own fault when your **** doesn't work.

Since I run linux, I'm used to checking for compatibility before I buy anything (I wish that didn't have to be the case though...).  I guess if you just buy crap without checking if it will work on your system first, Mac might be the best choice for you.


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## Dao (Mar 15, 2012)

CCericola said:


> What's a Yugo?



A tiny little cheap car famous of ...  problem.  I have not seen them around here since early 90's


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## Dao (Mar 15, 2012)

> Are Mac's worth the price premium?



It depends on how much you like Apple product.

It seems like you'd like to buy a Mac, but just want others to support your claims.   It is just a tool, if you like it a lot, it is going to be 100% worth it even if you need to eat raman noodle for few months.

Every systems or OS has pros and cons.  Just choose the one that best fit for you.  Macs is good, PC with Windows 7 is good and of course PC with Linux is good.  Also, find out what applications you like to use.  If a particular application only availible in one platform and you need to use that application often, staying with that platform make more sense.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 15, 2012)

Dao said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > What's a Yugo?
> ...



Q: Why does a Yugo have a rear windshield defroster? 

A: So your hands stay warm while you're pushing it.


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## Canuk (Mar 15, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Well, if you use incompatible parts, it's your own fault when your **** doesn't work.
> 
> Since I run linux, I'm used to checking for compatibility before I buy anything (I wish that didn't have to be the case though...).  I guess if you just buy crap without checking if it will work on your system first, Mac might be the best choice for you.



I'm not talking about myself using parts that are not compatible, but major computer manufacturers. Most people, including myself, do not know enough about computers to build their own and thus rely on manufacturers to do what the are paid to do. 

If you go to the dealership to buy a new car do you have to make sure the transmission and engine are compatible? No, that's just silly. Buying a laptop from a well know manufacturer should be the same then, right?

I am not a computer guru, nor do I play one on the internet, but as a consumer when I buy something I want it to work plain and simple. With Mac that's what happens, PC's not so much.


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## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

To me, yes.  Mac user since the 90's, both personal and professionally.  Dunno if you guys that are saying macs are way slower, or have inferior displays have used any modern ones or not.. doesn't seem like it.  Also the prices these days aren't really that much different for comparable performing products.


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't think I have ever, in the last 15 or so years, bought a computer that had incompatible hardware in it...


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## Dao (Mar 15, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> > CCericola said:
> ...



Only if the rear defroster is working.


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## theregoesjb (Mar 15, 2012)

3 pages deep but maybe i can add something. I build my own PC desktop and run windows 7 and i think its great.

I would say no, macs are not worth the premium. I think the biggest, and most justified, allure for macs though is the way everything is designed together, from the component choices to the OS. When you can have that much control over everything going into a design there must be some stability/ performance advantages, and compatibility becomes basically a non-issue. Many people love the lifespan a mac can offer, especially with the support apple provides. But i think the inherently short shelf life of any computer makes this a wash, since in 5 years (maybe less) you will probably want whatever the latest performance computers are offering.
I personally reformat my machine probably once a year and this alone i think keeps me running a 4 year old desktop relatively smooth. I plan to get another year at least out of it.
So you could pay about $2,000+ every 5 years (+/- 1 year) for a mac or pay half of that and get equal if not better raw specs. and still get the same lifespan out of it.
I know quite a few people with macbooks and macbook pros and i dont think there's any "pc/windows issue" that they haven't had; viruses, OS crashes, hard drive crashes.


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## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

I want to add, I built my own Mac (hackintosh) for half the price of the apple equivalent a couple years ago.  I haven't had any issues with it, so yeah, you're mostly paying for the design and/or case build quality when you're buying a Mac.  With my desktop, I didn't need anything fancy and ultra durable since it just sits underneath my desk anyway.  If I didn't have a display already, I might've gone with an iMac though.  That's what we use at work and it does everything we need it to and quickly.

Bought my Macbook Pro because I wanted some portability.  The Macbook screen is pretty amazing compared to just about any pc laptop i've messed around with, which is a big deal since graphics is what I do for a living.  Plus the Macbook isn't a thick brick like most comparable PC laptops, or were at the time.

I think ultimately what it boils down to is, what OS you want to use.  I hate windows.  Not that there's anything "wrong" with it, but it just feels weird to me and not user friendly at all.  In order to use Mac OSX, I have to have a OSX compatible machine, so in that regard, it's worth the price.


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## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

rpm said:


> ....is OS X and Macs really worth the price premium?


There's an important point that often get's overlooked when the operating systems are compared. First, because this is always a "MAC zealots versus the world" battle the MAC zealots will always insists that the opposite choice is Windows. They may or may not then note that the MAC is running UNIX.

It is of course very easy to run UNIX, LINUX, BSD, etc. on tha non-MAC computer. Another post here noted that a MAC can run various UNIX incarnations -- yep, so can any other non-MAC computer. I have a couple LINUX systems at home and they're not MACs - duh.

The MAC OS-X is a lie and MAC users should know this. What Apple sells as it's OS-X is a classic, subtle Apple lie in the very name itself -- an indication of Apple's overall character which should not be discounted. It is in fact not an OS or operating system. The operating system on contemporary MACs is BSD. That's FREE BSD which you can download now and run on any generic computer: The FreeBSD Project What Apple sells is a shell over the OS. They can't sell the OS because the copyright holders (University of CA at Berkeley) won't let them. That's why you can still boot your MAC right now with the correct key combination held down and read the legal copyright notice from UCB that legally has to be there. FREE BSD IS the MAC's OS. The MAC OS isn't "based" on UNIX it is in fact BSD which is a UNIX clone created at UCB and still owned by UCB. The "cat" is just a shell like Ubuntu or Debian etc. is a shell over LINUX. Apple's shell is nice and easy to use and well designed -- they get credit for that. But let's not forget that Apple's last attempt to create a real computer OS was the abomination OS9 that made Windows XP look spectacular. Heck, back in the day I wrote shells over OSs; compared to writing an actual OS it's like grade school math compared to calculus.

Is the MAC OS-X worth the premium? Not really since UCB gives it away. Is the MAC shell over BSD worth the premium? You betcha!

Joe


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## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> rpm said:
> 
> 
> > ....is OS X and Macs really worth the price premium?
> ...



In the real world of typical software (adobe) there's only Mac OSX and Windows.


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## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

bhop said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > rpm said:
> ...




In the real world of typical software how much $$$$$$$ per day are the rotten Apple and Microsuck paying software application vendors NOT to port their products to LINUX?

Joe


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## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> In the real world of typical software how much $$$$$$$ per day are the rotten Apple and Microsuck paying software application vendors NOT to port their products to LINUX?
> 
> Joe



Does it matter?  If you want to use Photoshop or Lightroom, for example, you have to use either OSX or Windows.


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## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

Something that hasn't really been brought up yet...

Has anyone compared the price of a Windows 7 Pro upgrade to that of the new OSX Lion upgrade ($189 vs $29)?
How about the new Apple Pages vs Microsoft Word ($19 vs $109)?  Or better yet Visual Studio 2010 vs XCode ($669 vs FREE).  Mac equivalent software is generally WAY cheaper, unless you are talking about 3rd party things like Photoshop, etc.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 15, 2012)

theregoesjb said:


> 3 pages deep but maybe i can add something. I build my own PC desktop and run windows 7 and i think its great.
> 
> I would say no, macs are not worth the premium. I think the biggest, and most justified, allure for macs though is the way everything is designed together, from the component choices to the OS. When you can have that much control over everything going into a design there must be some stability/ performance advantages, and compatibility becomes basically a non-issue. Many people love the lifespan a mac can offer, especially with the support apple provides. But i think the inherently short shelf life of any computer makes this a wash, since in 5 years (maybe less) you will probably want whatever the latest performance computers are offering.
> I personally reformat my machine probably once a year and this alone i think keeps me running a 4 year old desktop relatively smooth. I plan to get another year at least out of it.
> ...



This is a great point. All computers (Mac or PC) have a shelf life-- 5 years is probably a good estimate. 




mjhoward said:


> Something that hasn't really been brought up yet...
> 
> Has anyone compared the price of a Windows 7 Pro license to that of the new OSX Lion license?
> How about the new Apple Pages vs Microsoft Word?  Mac equivalent software is generally WAY cheaper, unless you are talking about 3rd party things like Photoshop, etc.



And WAY crappier, too. There's very good reason MS office is king. It works well, it's backwards compatible, and with every new version it sees major improvements.


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

bhop said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > In the real world of typical software how much $$$$$$$ per day are the rotten Apple and Microsuck paying software application vendors NOT to port their products to LINUX?
> ...



Only in the taste that's left in your mouth after biting the rotten apple or the pain you feel from the bite marks in your neck.

Joe

P.S. I make my living teaching Photoshop and that's why I use both MAC OS-X and Win7, but I know I'm being forced. If I didn't have to use Photoshop those LINUX systems in my home would instantly become exclusive. I can dislike Apple, Microsuck and Adobe for that.


----------



## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> mjhoward said:
> 
> 
> > Something that hasn't really been brought up yet...
> ...



It sounds like you've never used Apple Pages.  It is every bit as good and easy to use as MS Word (I actually like it better now that I've learned how to use it) and it also backwards compatible as well as being able to export as an MS Word document.


----------



## Derrel (Mar 15, 2012)

I'd like to steer this back to USABILITY and CONVENIENCE for photography use. Is there any Windows operating system, or Linux system, that allows the photographer to color-code or "label" his or her files? Is this possible under Windows or Linux? Can the user of any Windows or Linux system COLOR-CODE or LABEL files, and arrange them by color or label, or search for them by color or label?

I just searched for "Images" labeled "Orange", and searched 5,287 image files, and came up with 270 images I have labeled as "Orange", or *essential, exceptional, or first-rate*.

I just searched for "Images" labeled "red", and searched 5,287 image files, and came up with 548 images I have labeled as "red", which means *A-list images.*

I just searched "Images" labeled "Blue", and searched 5,287 image files and came up with 327 images labeled as "Blue", which means *Backed up to another drive or copied to removable media.

*I just searched "Images" labeled "Green", and searched 5,287 image files and came up with 462 images labeled as "Green", which represent RAW .CR2 or .NEF files that need to be processed into "Red-quality" images.

Of course, the above color-coding is all of MY OWN creatiuon, and applies only to image files. Music files follow a similar color-coding, but are of course searchable separately, if desired.

Under Mac OS X, when I open a folder full of say 1,000 .CR2 files, I can visually SEE, by color code, which are the better images, without having to see any thumbnails...just by the color-code I can tell which files are the best, second-level, or backed up, and even which are CRAP...I can also look at files that are Blue and KNOW for SURE that they have been copied to another disk, or backed up to removable media. When I open a DVD-ROM or CD-ROM disc and see BLUE-colored folders, I KNOW for SURE, that is not the original back-up disc, but is a SECOND COPY of my back-up or offload disc, and not the "original" disc.

Does Windows or Linux support this functionality?


----------



## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

bhop said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > In the real world of typical software how much $$$$$$$ per day are the rotten Apple and Microsuck paying software application vendors NOT to port their products to LINUX?
> ...


Or Wine.

Not ideal, but it works and you don't have to actually buy another OS, like you do with VirtualBox or similar.


----------



## rpm (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel that is actually a very interesting functionality I was unaware of but unfort I can't look at it completely as a photography only investment. furthermore i don't think ill ever be the type to own two computers one for private use one for professional; I'm still finishing up my Masters but I don't see myself ever seeing the practicality of it unless my future-employer gives me a computer.


----------



## Redeyejedi (Mar 15, 2012)

all my pc's last several years with no real issues. sure parts leave QC and fail at consumer level, but with 100,000 times more parts in the market failure rate has to be a higher percentage compared to tremendously fewer products in the market. 

also, with ALL of these guys (esp apple/mac) on the planned obsolescence tip 5 years is a long time to upgrade as software advancements may necessitate higher performing components.

the analogies to cars is just silly.
99% of PC issues are PBKNC related(problem between keyboard & chair). i wager to assume similar with macaholics and mac machines.
continuing with car analogy, and the yugo/bmw example does not parallel the PC/MAC comparison. a better comparison would be ford taurus vs bmw 3 series, however, when i purchase/build my car i can have any engine on the market, whatever suspension i desire, tires and windshield and radio and etc all of my choice....i come out cheaper than the bimer and perform better.
 continuing with the auto analogy(yugo/bmw), suppose in my bimer i neglect to change the oil, fail to conduct routine maintenance, stay on top of updates etc.... the yugo passes the smoke spewing bmw on the autobahn....albeit probably in the bike lane...hehe jk....afterall remember bmw really stands for bob marley and the wailers.

can't you rate, color coordinate, assign sorting with bridge, nx2 etc?



mjhoward said:


> Something that hasn't really been brought up yet...
> 
> Has anyone compared the price of a Windows 7 Pro upgrade to that of the new OSX Lion upgrade ($189 vs $29)?
> How about the new Apple Pages vs Microsoft Word ($19 vs $109)?  Or better yet Visual Studio 2010 vs XCode ($669 vs FREE).  Mac equivalent software is generally WAY cheaper, unless you are talking about 3rd party things like Photoshop, etc.


but ms office is by no means the best or cheapest option for PC.

is a mac worth the premium?
 - it depends on what softwares you will be running
 - it depends on who you are and whom you wish to spend your $ with
 - it depends on what you want to accomplish/usage
 - it depends on you budget
(not in any particular order)

ps just built a win7 pc - i7 3.4 quad core, 16gb ram, 60gb ssd, 2tb hd, a really nice case of my choice....all for well under $1k, 1/3 price of "comparable" quadcore but better specs.


----------



## Dao (Mar 15, 2012)

I need to use vSphere client.  So Windows get my vote for now.


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> I'd like to steer this back to USABILITY and CONVENIENCE for photography use. Is there any Windows operating system, or Linux system, that allows the photographer to color-code or "label" his or her files? Is this possible under Windows or Linux? Can the user of any Windows or Linux system COLOR-CODE or LABEL files, and arrange them by color or label, or search for them by color or label?
> 
> I just searched for "Images" labeled "Orange", and searched 5,287 image files, and came up with 270 images I have labeled as "Orange", or *essential, exceptional, or first-rate*.
> 
> ...




I think the usability argument between the OS systems is pretty meaningless these days. Yes, you can color code folder icons in Win7 but you'll have to search on the folder name and no you can't color code files, but then again you CAN buy a Microsoft two button mouse to use on your MAC.

I use MAC OS, Win 7, Ubuntu LINUX and even old Win XP systems (old campus still has them). The most irritating difference between them all is Apple's stubborn refusal to ship a two button mouse -- the critical point of interface, but easy enough to fix. Apart from that they're all very usable with nice and irritating features from all.

Joe


----------



## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> The most irritating difference between them all is Apple's stubborn refusal to ship a two button mouse



The magic mouse has left and right click along with many gestures that I've found pretty useful.


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

mjhoward said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > The most irritating difference between them all is Apple's stubborn refusal to ship a two button mouse
> ...



Look at that -- I've fallen behind. Does that thing actually click or do you have to tap it like a touch pad?

Joe


----------



## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Yes, Macs are worth the premium over Windows machines. Just as Coca~Cola is worth the price premium over Shasta cola. The same way a Mercedes is worth the price premium over a Kia. The same way wild, troll-caught Pacific salmon from Oregon or Washington or California is worth the price premium over pond-reared, Mexican tilapia. The same way gourmet coffee beans are worth the price premium over Folger's crystals. Macs last a long time, and work reliably without much effort. Macintosh hardware and the software is made by the same company, so it actually works. Hey, if you drive a Kia....fine. If you want to eat tilapia, fine. If you like Folger's crystal's instant coffee, well, God will take pity on you some day.
> 
> For photography work, the Mac's system of allowing the user to color-code files and folders is a Godsend. That makes it possible to search for files based not on name or date but on "qualities or characteristics" the files or folders or discs possess. Would you like to find folders that have already been backed up and moved to another hard drive? If you have color-coded them on your Mac, you can find those folders in seconds. Want to find ALL OF YOUR BEST IMAGES, across a terrabyte of storage, no matter where they are? ON your Mac, if you have labeled the best photos, you can do a search based on the color code, and find those files, and have them displayed in a finder window in a very short time-without the need to know the names or locations of any of the images.




Well, this is a little over the top. Saying a desktop PC is Tilapia where a Mac is Salmon probably sounds nice to all the Mac users, but it's just colorful smoke. 

Macs have always catered to the creative crowd:


Musicians, artists, photographers, filmmakers etc. enjoy the software catered to them built into the OS.
Mac hardware & software are built/shipped together.
Macs do have nice screens and a pleasing aesthetic appearance inside and out.
But that's it, those are the main bullet points that differentiate a PC from a Mac and I'll spend a few moments debunking each: 

At what cost are these "extras" reasonable? This thread begs the question, is it worth the extra cost? In my experience (selling Mac computers for over a year) and being a Windows user since before time, I'd say no. 

To me, the answer is no. 

Most of the creative software that comes in the Mac OS I would never use. If I was really serious about music, film making, photography, or art I'd purchase professional programs regardless of which OS I use. I wouldn't use iMovie or iPhoto or Garage Band if I made my living from said profession. So the creative software doesn't do much for me. 

Hardware and software being built together is a nice thing, but, it's somewhat of an illusion. Apple has done this forever for two reasons. 
1. What they want the public to think is they do this for quality control.
 At the Apple store I worked in, we had an Apple service center.  If you've ever been into an Apple store, you've inevitably seen the long lines at these service desks. All kinds of problems. Problems with the software, problems with the hardware. Remember, this is the same company that requires you to ship off your iPod if the battery goes bad. If you have seen the enormous amount of hardware and technical issues that I've seen, you wouldn't put much stock into the fact that just because software and hardware are built together makes them unquestionably superior to their PC counterparts. 

2. The _*real reason *_Apple builds their own computers? The same reason they build iPads and iPhones and don't contract out the work. Their bottom line. The all important dollar. It's easy to open up shop overseas, pay pittance to workers and force work in unreasonable conditions (see Foxconn Suicides 1 Million Workers. 90 Million iPhones. 17 Suicides. Who's to Blame? | Wired Magazine | Wired.com). If Apple didn't control the production, they wouldn't control price. 

   So what about aesthetics? The companies obsession with making everything slimmer and sexier (see Macbook Air). My PC sits under my desk. I don't care what it looks like. All I care about is what is under the hood. 

Have you ever used an Apple Mighty/magic mouse? It's atrocious. After a year of use I was sure it had given me Carpal tunnel.  Where's my second button and why does Apple feel like the mouse being pretty supersedes its functionality and ergonomics? Priorities wrong, there. 

So how about a head to head comparison to wrap this up. Below are my computer specs (I purchased this unit 2 years ago and unusually, it has maintained its price on Amazon for a little over $1,000):

MS Windows 7 home premium 64 bit
Intel Core i7 CPU 860 @ 2.8 GHZ (hyperthreaded to 8 cores)
8.0 GB Ram 
ATI 5770
1TB 7200 RPM 

Price: Approx $1,100

Today, let's head over to the Apple website and let's configure a comparable Mac Pro:
2.8 GHZ Quad core Intel Xeon
8GB RAM
1 TB 7200 RPM
ATI 5770

Price: $2,874

Ouch. 

The bottom line is anyone can stretch their dollar further by going the PC route. If you want to pay the premium to have a few bells and whistles, if it's worth it to you, then go for it.

But if I wanted to burn money, then  I'd just get a lighter.


----------



## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Macintosh hardware and the software is made by the same company, so it actually works.


What hardware, found inside a Mac, is actually _made_ by Apple?

My guess is none of it.


----------



## o hey tyler (Mar 15, 2012)

Gromit801 said:


> Wow, a lot of MS Koolaid drinkers in here.
> 
> Is a Mac worth the extra price?  Is a BMW worth more than a Yugo?



Is your opinion more valuable than anyone elses? 

Nope.


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> mjhoward said:
> 
> 
> > Ysarex said:
> ...




Wow! I just answered my own question and did some research. Some people love it and a lot of people really hate it and Gizmodo nailed it in the review by listing it's most important feature: It looks goooood! So the biggest complaint I found was you have to raise your left finger to get the right finger click to work reliably -- finger calisthenics! And now a blast from the past:


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Macintosh hardware and the software is made by the same company, so it actually works.
> ...



Right, but it's all designed by Apple in Cuppertino CA -- says so on the box right above made in China.


----------



## NedZ (Mar 15, 2012)

I personally love Macs but I dont think you should switch if you are comfortable w/ PC


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## o hey tyler (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


>



Well, that looks mildly uncomfortable.


----------



## Vipor (Mar 15, 2012)




----------



## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> mjhoward said:
> 
> 
> > Ysarex said:
> ...



It clicks.  But it shares some of the gestures of the touchpad too.


----------



## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> rpm said:
> 
> 
> > ....is OS X and Macs really worth the price premium?
> ...



God.. this is so wrong.  I don't even know where to begin.    You've taken one tiny bit of understanding and drafted a huge generalization with claims of knowing the whole story!

Yes.. MAC OS X has roots in freeBSD but to claim that it is a bastardized version of freeBSD with a premium price is way overboard.  This is like saying that all variants of UNIX are bastardized versions of Berkley or SVR4.  Why stop there?  We might as well say that they are all bastards of the original Time Sharing System.   We can then claim that Redhat and SuSE are simply sitting on their hands and rebranding Minix from Tanenbaum deserves 100% of the credit for their success.   By doing so you completely degrade the importance of years of hard work by a whole community of very intelligent individuals.   

I worked with one of the Kernel development groups that splintered off after the initial demise of Bell Labs, NJ.   I was a student engineer at the time and it was a HUGE honor to have worked within that group.   These are some of the brightest pioneers in Computer SCIENCES.... Not Information Technology.. Not Computers in Business... but scientists that researched complexities well before the universities even conceived the notion of a computer sciences degree.   

There's a lot in your response that indicates a limitation of understanding or misunderstanding.  Shell (/bin/bash to be more specifc) was not written by Apple.  "Cat" or "/bin/cat" is a unix command not a shell.  

you sir are flat out wrong.


PS> OS9 did suck...   

Do you want to know where a lot of what makes MAC OS X a good OS comes from????   Its not FreeBSD Here are three hints

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT
2) Steve Jobs returns to Apple
3) Steve Jobs buys his old company NeXT


----------



## Ysarex (Mar 15, 2012)

Vipor said:


>



Yep, that's the only place this can go. I'll stop before it get's worse.


----------



## Redeyejedi (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> Vipor said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



at least there's definitely kernels there


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 15, 2012)

Even though I'm a reformed Mac hater, this thread is so Ford vs. Chevy


----------



## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> but then again you CAN buy a Microsoft two button mouse to use on your MAC.



Wow.. you just lost all credibility. Macs have had two button mice shipped with them for years.

That's the old stand-by argument that mac haters always seem to fall back on, which only shows they haven't even used a mac in the last 10 years or so..

This argument is turning into the usual.. the fact is, some people like macs, some people hate macs.  Some people like windows, some people hate windows.  Then there are some people that hate both mac and windows and like other things.  This old argument is like roaches, it'll probably live on even after the nukes start flying.


----------



## sovietdoc (Mar 15, 2012)

MAC vs PC debate is always endless but I can say this:

PCs offer better price/performance ratio
Macs offer better build quality (on average) and aesthetics

It's your choice what to pay for.


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

On the consumer level (i.e., Best Buy, and other chain stores) PC's don't stand a chance.

If you are going to build your own, you can probably build something faster and more powerful for the same price. However, IMO, it will still never have the aesthetic quality, build quality, or the overall ease of use of a Mac. This is also subject to whether or not you are actually capable of building something better, or paying someone to build it for you, in which case you may not be able to for the same price. 

IMO there are three categories of computers: Mac's, PC's, and custom built PC's. 

There will always be die-hard PC users, but look at the production/sales curves of Apple products and it's very clear who is on the true upward path, regardless of biases and denial. Ask again in 5 years and you'll hear a very different chorus. This is also a comparison of a single company, with one solid product line vs. a plethora of companies making thousands of models. Who is really more fine-tuned and advanced in this perspective?

Get whatever feels, looks, and works best for YOU. Don't let anyone else dictate your equipment.


----------



## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 15, 2012)

Josh220 said:


> On the consumer level (i.e., Best Buy, and other chain stores) PC's don't stand a chance.
> 
> If you are going to build your own, you can probably build something faster and more powerful for the same price. However, IMO, it will still never have the aesthetic quality, build quality, or the overall ease of use of a Mac. This is also subject to whether or not you are actually capable of building something better, or paying someone to build it for you, in which case you may not be able to for the same price.



The example I provided in my previous post was not custom built. It was purchased from Amazon. And in every aspect it outclasses (and IMO looks nicer) than the almost spec-identical Mac Pro which is priced at *$1700.00 higher*. So in my case, you are wrong on all counts. 

Ease of use is subjective and I've found Macs less easy to use than my PC's.


----------



## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> Josh220 said:
> 
> 
> > On the consumer level (i.e., Best Buy, and other chain stores) PC's don't stand a chance.
> ...



My work computer is a PC I built that is about as decked out as you can get.  The tower alone was $600 with the processor being $1300 and SDD @ $700.  I still get more joy out of using my Mac.


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> Josh220 said:
> 
> 
> > On the consumer level (i.e., Best Buy, and other chain stores) PC's don't stand a chance.
> ...



And they're even nice enough to pre-load all sorts of free goodies on there for you! 

Like you said, it's all subjective. I personally think that notebook looks horrific and I have never owned a PC that came anywhere near the performance of any of my Mac's (desktops or notebooks) regardless of price or how they looked on paper. What good are better stats on paper if they are bogged down with thousands of programs, free trials, etc installed on them? What about viruses? Better keep up those daily and hourly updates on Norton! 

If you want something that requires constant maintenance, grab a PC. If you want something that simply works and does what it's supposed to do, get a Mac. 

And yes, this is strictly opinion.


----------



## Fox_Racing_Guy (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't fit any of these descriptions so it was a easy choice.


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

Fox_Racing_Guy said:


> I don't fit any of these descriptions so it was a easy choice.










Damn fart-huffers...


----------



## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

LOL


----------



## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Top result for "Linux is for" was hipsters, lol.  Closely followed by nerds.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Mar 15, 2012)

It's nothing to do with the hardware, specs or aesthetics.  It's about the user experience.  Even with all of the improvements over the last few generations of Windows, they're still not even in the ballpark of Mac in the UI department.

Between the dashboard, mission control, exposé and launchpad (assuming you're running Lion, the current Mac OS), the Apple user experience is significantly more streamlined than anything Windows can offer right now.  The increased productivity that provides me is most certainly worth a few hundred dollars over the lifespan of the device.


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> It's nothing to do with the hardware, specs or aesthetics.  It's about the user experience.  Even with all of the improvements over the last few generations of Windows, they're still not even in the ballpark of Mac in the UI department.
> 
> Between the dashboard, mission control, exposé and launchpad (assuming you're running Lion, the current Mac OS), the Apple user experience is significantly more streamlined than anything Windows can offer right now.  The increased productivity that provides me is most certainly worth a few hundred dollars over the lifespan of the device.



X2

You would pay more than that for virus protection and on Aspirin for all of your headaches, IMO.


----------



## Natalie (Mar 15, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> Between the dashboard, mission control, exposé and launchpad (assuming you're running Lion, the current Mac OS), the Apple user experience is significantly more streamlined than anything Windows can offer right now.  The increased productivity that provides me is most certainly worth a few hundred dollars over the lifespan of the device.


I have lots of friends who use Macs, and when I try to use their computers, all those things you mentioned just make using the computer difficult and frustrating, especially when I'm in a hurry. It seems like all the time I hit the wrong button or click in the wrong place and some app comes up that I don't need and didn't even know was there. When I try to minimize the web browser, instead of going to the bottom of the screen it just disappears (I still haven't figured out where it goes or how to get it back, so I have to open up a new window). There was also something at the bottom (from what I remember, maybe it was just the older OS) that slides around/moves when you just put your mouse over it, which is thoroughly annoying. It might be streamlined for someone who's used to all that stuff going on, but it's definitely not intuitive.

With my laptop running Windows 7, everything is efficient and easily accessible... The only applications I have open are the ones I'm using at the time. It doesn't get any easier than this:


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

When you minimize a window it just goes to your dock... 

Even if you could not find the dock, when you try to open a new window (Safari for example) it will automatically re-open the minimized window... But since Safari is most likely located on the dock, you can probably find the minimized window as well. If not, then your friend has poorly reconfigured the layout of his computer. 

The buttons that open apps, dashboard, launchpad, etc are located on the F buttons at the top. Those are still present on PC's, thus would not solve the problem. Stop clicking the F buttons if it's an issue


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

P.S. Alt + F4 works wonders.


----------



## Natalie (Mar 15, 2012)

Josh220 said:


> When you minimize a window it just goes to your dock...
> 
> Even if you could not find the dock, when you try to open a new window  (Safari for example) it will automatically re-open the minimized  window... But since Safari is most likely located on the dock, you can  probably find the minimized window as well. If not, then your friend has  poorly reconfigured the layout of his computer.
> 
> The buttons that open apps, dashboard, launchpad, etc are located on the  F buttons at the top. Those are still present on PC's, thus would not  solve the problem. Stop clicking the F buttons if it's an issue


It  wasn't the F buttons. There was one button on the mouse, which had one  main button and then a little ball that could be pressed in the middle,  and the little ball is what caused all the trouble. It was impossible to  scroll down without pressing it inadvertently, and when that happened  all the windows would disappear and some useless app would come up.  There were also buttons on the side of the keyboard that did that kind  of stuff too (it was a desktop computer with a full keyboard).



Josh220 said:


> P.S. Alt + F4 works wonders.


Oh so that's how you have to close windows on a Mac? That works on a PC too, but we also have these little red buttons in the corners of windows that you can use to close windows you're done with. One more simple thing Apple refuses to do? LOL.


----------



## Josh220 (Mar 15, 2012)

What? Macs have the same buttons in the corner, they're just on the left instead of the right. Close, minimize, maximize, it's all there. Always has been.


----------



## Natalie (Mar 15, 2012)

I was being facetious.


----------



## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Josh220 said:


> What? Macs have the same buttons in the corner, they're just on the left instead of the right. Close, minimize, maximize, it's all there. Always has been.


That always bugged me - I could never get used to them being on that side...

That's what I like about linux, lol - you can change stuff like that.  You can basically make it look just like Mac, just like Windows, or different than both.


Try this...  Not sure if it will work (pretty sure it won't work on Windows, but it should on Mac).  Create a new custom keyboard shortcut called XKill.  Make the command xkill.  Mine is set to Ctrl+Alt+X.  It turns the cursor into an X, which kills the first thing you click on.  Very nice for unresponsive programs.

(You can also just type xkill in the terminal, but having a keyboard shortcut is cooler, lol.)


----------



## digital flower (Mar 15, 2012)

I think I am gonna start me one of dem Nikon vs. Canon threads


----------



## Vipor (Mar 15, 2012)

Natalie said:


> jamesbjenkins said:
> 
> 
> > Between the dashboard, mission control, exposé and launchpad (assuming you're running Lion, the current Mac OS), the Apple user experience is significantly more streamlined than anything Windows can offer right now.  The increased productivity that provides me is most certainly worth a few hundred dollars over the lifespan of the device.
> ...





Oh, are you in for a surprise. Wait till you see Win8.   It's gonna drive you up the wall within seconds.   :lmao:


----------



## rpm (Mar 15, 2012)

Hahahahahaha I too wonder just how bad windows 8 might feel in my hands


----------



## bhop (Mar 15, 2012)

Natalie said:


> I have lots of friends who use Macs, and when I try to use their computers, all those things you mentioned just make using the computer difficult and frustrating, especially when I'm in a hurry. It seems like all the time I hit the wrong button or click in the wrong place and some app comes up that I don't need and didn't even know was there. When I try to minimize the web browser, instead of going to the bottom of the screen it just disappears (I still haven't figured out where it goes or how to get it back, so I have to open up a new window). There was also something at the bottom (from what I remember, maybe it was just the older OS) that slides around/moves when you just put your mouse over it, which is thoroughly annoying. It might be streamlined for someone who's used to all that stuff going on, but it's definitely not intuitive.
> 
> With my laptop running Windows 7, everything is efficient and easily accessible... The only applications I have open are the ones I'm using at the time. It doesn't get any easier than this:
> 
> View attachment 4328



Funny.. change all of your 'macs' to 'windows' and I have the exact same issue.  The first time an IT guy asked me to shut down a PC, they laughed when I couldn't figure out how.. the 'start' button.. that makes a lot of sense.

For future reference, there are three buttons at the top of all the windows in osx, the middle one minimizes it to the dock.


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

this is common...

Usually with a new user of MaC OSX combined with the notion that eveything should behave just like windows and not necessarily open to an alternate way of working.  Wife was the same way... I let her be and have her Windows machine.    When VIsta arrived after a history of problems, she was more open to the idea.  I got her a used MaC MiNi as a gift not wanting to be too invested in something that she might not like.   That was two years ago.... she has been happy and figures things out now on her own.

I personally found it easier to transition to Mac OSX.   I never did like windows.... finding its use too limiting yet not intuitive.  From UX standpoint often they are mutually exclusive.   Easy to use interfaces tend to be limiting because they abstract out more complex or confusing operations.  Interfaces that are very flexibile tend to be less intuitive....   Somehow Windows acheives both.... go figure.   That experience plus my heavy Unix background tended to sway me towards Linux thus the easier transition to MAC OSX.


The thing on the bottom you dismissed as annoying before actually LOOKing at it is the Dock.   It manages running applications as well as applications that are used most often.  If the animation bothers you, you can customize it to not expand.   People set it up to expand when moused over to better make use of desktop real estate.  The issue here is that if you actally looked at it you would have found the window you are looking for.     Learning a new environment on a friends machine is best done while not in a hurry.

Win 7 at work is a bit better than previous gens.... but boy is that thing a resource hog.   I streamlined and minimized win 7 on my new laptop as much as possible and run Linux on it in Virtual Box.   So between my Mac G5 at work and the vitual Linux box, the Win 7 environment is used for sharepoint and email.  It keeps the IT folks happy and off my back too....


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 15, 2012)

Why you want a short cut of 3 key to "kill" something? LOL in Mac I just hit 2 key and do the same

This is the never ending story

I tell you right away, I don't care what anybody think. I will stick with my Apple products.

My friend was just calling costumer support about an Apple TV-like device, Is not compatible with his dell even thought is made for windows. My Apple Tv work flawlessly out of the box.

Never ever I've had a virus or some crazy stuff in my Macs (there's 4 around the house) since I've been using them, 2006

Most importantly every Apple device is mean to complement each other AND out of the box.

Don't talk about customization, codes and all those crazy stuff I don't want to do in first place, That's why I buy Apple.

...an aparently more people are doing it too ( just look at the facts)


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## TwoTwoLeft (Mar 15, 2012)

All I know is for the 2 1/2 years I've had my MacBook Pro it's virtually identical in performance, battery life and overall condition than when it was new... Granted my hard drive is almost full... I've got every route with a PC laptop. Fujitsu, Toshiba, HP... All crapped out somehow in under 2 years. I'm not very nice to my laptops, they have to put up with a lot. I hate dicking around with computers, I don't have time for that crap. I just want them to work. I whip out my MAC, turn it on and go to town. It just works.

The funny thing is, if I was trying to accomplish a task with Windows and didn't know how to do it, I'd have to go to the help menu. With any new OS my first guess on how it should be done is usually the right one...


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> Why you want a short cut of 3 key to "kill" something? LOL in Mac I just hit 2 key and do the same


I could make it 1 key if I wanted to.  I just liked the Ctrl+Alt+X combination.  Make it whatever you want, or don't bother at all.

I never said to make it a 3 key combination - I just said what the command was, and which keys I used for it.  Use whatever you want.


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## Derrel (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> I'd like to steer this back to USABILITY and CONVENIENCE for photography use. Is there any Windows operating system, or Linux system, that allows the photographer to color-code or "label" his or her files? Is this possible under Windows or Linux? Can the user of any Windows or Linux system COLOR-CODE or LABEL files, and arrange them by color or label, or search for them by color or label?
> 
> I just searched for "Images" labeled "Orange", and searched 5,287 image files, and came up with 270 images I have labeled as "Orange", or *essential, exceptional, or first-rate*.
> 
> ...



Anybody care to reply? Can Win-doze or Linux do anything like this?????


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 15, 2012)

TwoTwoLeft said:


> All I know is for the 2 1/2 years I've had my MacBook Pro it's virtually identical in performance, battery life and overall condition than when it was new... Granted my hard drive is almost full... I've got every route with a PC laptop. Fujitsu, Toshiba, HP... All crapped out somehow in under 2 years. I'm not very nice to my laptops, they have to put up with a lot. I hate dicking around with computers, I don't have time for that crap. I just want them to work. I whip out my MAC, turn it on and go to town. It just works.



Yes, That one of the reasons I never went back to anything else.


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## chuasam (Mar 15, 2012)

Is a beautiful girlfriend worth the premium or would you rather have a butt ugly girlfriend who can't cook and who you ask to walk a few steps away lest someone mistakenly think that she's with you?


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## Josh66 (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to steer this back to USABILITY and CONVENIENCE for photography use. Is there any Windows operating system, or Linux system, that allows the photographer to color-code or "label" his or her files? Is this possible under Windows or Linux? Can the user of any Windows or Linux system COLOR-CODE or LABEL files, and arrange them by color or label, or search for them by color or label?
> ...


I don't know if you can do that in Linux because I have never tried...  Honestly, I don't think it would be a feature I would use, so I'm not going to waste a lot of time finding out how to do it...

I delete the 'crap' photos, so I would never have a need to find them all later on.  I guess If you just put everything in one big folder, color coding everything would make sense.  I don't do that though.  I create different folders for different things...


Sounds like a nice feature, but one that I would never use...


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 15, 2012)

Funny thing is my friend (with the Apple Tv -like device) keep hating on Apple for no reason. Then I just watch in silence every time he wants to do something and for some random reason something just has to happen. He has a new Dell computer with windows 7 and just bought in best buy and competition of the Apple Tv. Just looking at him struggle setting up that little box! Wow, just wow! finally he called costumer service and he a got some crazy answer that the thing was not compatible with the model he has??!!

I bought my Apple Tv, open it, plug it in and input my iCloud email. 2 minutes later I was enjoying all my content on my HDTV and surround (Love Airplay!)


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## mjhoward (Mar 15, 2012)

TwoTwoLeft said:


> All I know is for the 2 1/2 years I've had my MacBook Pro it's virtually identical in performance, battery life and overall condition than when it was new... Granted my hard drive is almost full... I've got every route with a PC laptop. Fujitsu, Toshiba, HP... All crapped out somehow in under 2 years. I'm not very nice to my laptops, they have to put up with a lot. I hate dicking around with computers, I don't have time for that crap. I just want them to work. I whip out my MAC, turn it on and go to town. It just works.



I made a similar post earlier on... i've had mine for 3 1/2 years where I normally feel the need to ditch one after about 18 months.  So for $400 more than my previous laptop, I've gotten more than twice the life and it still looks new.  So really, my Macbook was about half the price of a PC notebook    I'm guessing I could get at least another 2 1/2 yrs without feeling like I NEED to get the next one.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 15, 2012)

mjhoward said:


> TwoTwoLeft said:
> 
> 
> > All I know is for the 2 1/2 years I've had my MacBook Pro it's virtually identical in performance, battery life and overall condition than when it was new... Granted my hard drive is almost full... I've got every route with a PC laptop. Fujitsu, Toshiba, HP... All crapped out somehow in under 2 years. I'm not very nice to my laptops, they have to put up with a lot. I hate dicking around with computers, I don't have time for that crap. I just want them to work. I whip out my MAC, turn it on and go to town. It just works.
> ...



I spent more in windows computer because I just buy a new one pretty much every year. Now my laptop still the same since 2009 and I still have my first Mac! 2006 Macbook pro, Still works! I don't want to let it go.


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## TwoTwoLeft (Mar 15, 2012)

mjhoward said:


> So for $400 more than my previous laptop, I've gotten more than twice the life...



THIS!


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 15, 2012)

That pretty much goes to all their products, i'm reading this forum in my iPad 1! (2 years old and still working just like it did the first day it got released to the public!)


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## usayit (Mar 15, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Anybody care to reply? Can Win-doze or Linux do anything like this?????



I don't think so...  This was one of the features that sets them apart.  IIRC extra meta data was one of the reasons why MAC OS X uses its own filesystem rather than borrowing from other Linux distros (ext3, reiserfs, vxfs, ext3, etc..)

Linux on the other hand is a different story.  Its more flexible than MAC OS X (much more than Windows) BUT as I mentioned earlier flexible doesn't always mean more intuitive.  I think Mac's interface is a nice balance.   Unlike Mac's integrated file manager (Finder), linux can integrate any number of file managers.  I can't remember off the top of my head but I am almost 100% sure that one of the file managers implement something similar.   You don't like the window/desktop look or behavior?  Linux guys can change it with any number of Windows managers.   

Don't expect answers... (see previous post)  All I want is to recursively search all the files of a particular pattern in a file system and append ".old".  I can do this in one line in shell... thus Linux and Mac OS X but I haven't figured it out in Windows yet.


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## cardonalj (Mar 16, 2012)

MAC vs Windows is a debate that's been going on since I was a wee kid (I'm 29). The choices is ultimately up to you. Personally j could careless about color coding files. I know where I keep everything and if I need to find it its as simple as opening the folder. 

What I find fu.ny is everyone talking about the life of their computers/laptops. I've had the sane laptop since 2008. I don't have to worry about viruses bc I'm fairly competent in knowing what to Download and what not to Download. It may not run as fast as a MAC but to be honest that's all semantics. I'm not doing batch editing on 1000s of photos. 

I can tell u why I went with Windows. The sole fact that I can swap out parts is a Def selling point for me. Upgrading ny desktop when the time comes means a new mobo and processor and RAM for a fraction. Of the price than buying a new desktop. Be it MAC or Windows. 

What no one has hit on is upgradability factor. Whats the easiest in terms of components.


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## Derrel (Mar 16, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



Your response is hilariously short-sighted and frankly, stupid. You are a nice guy and everything Josh, but your comments make you seem, well, dense. Have you ever heard of organizational methods? Is the phone book all just "one big letter"? Is a filing cabinet all filed under "One Big Effing Mess?" lol Ah...WiN-dOzE...the colorful clown suit for DOS...

The idea that separate folders for "everything" is the way to organize things is laughable Josh! You might want to think about this: the color-coding of files allows a person to sort, search,organize,delete,move,re-move,delete, update,back-up,or re-name files according to the *CHATACTERISTICS or properties* OF THE FILE....not simply by their location or according to their "name"!!! My God...Windows users simply have no clue about the potential power of a Macintosh in terms of getting work done, and instead spend all their time working around the lame file-management limitations of Win-doze! Hilarious!  And I say this knowing full well that you are a sincere, wonderful person Josh... See, the idea is that by labeling files, or folders, or applications, the ****USER***** can make the computer his or her own system ans can get chit done efficiently...AND that more than one person can look at files, and can KNOW what has been done to them, or needs to be done, based on simple color-coding/naming of the file's "characteristics" or "state of progress".

Download a wedding to the computer....label the files say, Brown....tell assistant to open the brown files and edit them, and then once edited, color-code them Green...with 1,300 fikles, the ability of two, or three people to simply glance at a folder of images and KNOW, not guess, but KNOW what state the files are in is simply invaluable...

When sitting down with a client, you can tell the absolute best pictures, from the B-list, form the C-list images....without the need to ever open one single image...and this goes on and on over many types of situations. 

...the inability to sort files on Windows, is such a limitation of a crude, outdated computer system. My mind boggles to think that WIndows users cannot even imagine how this feature would be useful. I'm laughing right now!!

Quick--find and locate ALL the images that have been readied for printing on your hard drive, in 15 seconds, across 6,000 folders....that's probably impossible on a Win-doze box. If I search for "images" labeled "Gray"...I can find every single file in 6,000 folders, and have them in a list on my desktop in 15 seconds...no matter where they are, across multiple drives, and no matter what the file names are. I find it amazing that you do not "get" how that feature would be useful. Oh well, enjoy that file management system composed of chewing gum and baling wire!!! (A joke that's probably about as old as you are...)


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## Dao (Mar 16, 2012)

Derrel, I am not disagree with you.  But lightroom do a pretty good job on organizing and managing the photos for me so far.  I just bought it not too long ago so I am still learning.  So I really not see color folders is a must have feature for me.  Maybe it is good for others.

There is a reason why Windows was popular.  And for the same reason, Mac is getting popular nowadays.   The reason is "Marketing".  Microsoft may not be a best tech company in the past, but sure it is a great marketing company.  Windows 3.0 back then was not the best so call OS, there are better one on the market at that time.  But MS did a great job market that product. (Then Win95 -> 98 ....)

Apple now, personally.  I still believe it is a great marketing company.  Anyone recall their commercials? Mac vs PC?  If you do, then their marketing works.   A lot of time, what people believe and thought that is his/her opinion.  Well, it was what the corp. America want you to believe.  

The cool people get the Mac, use iPhone and iPad.  Anyone get that idea?  I wonder who I got that idea from.  One of my co-worker asked me about buying a computer for his daughter (going to college).  He was looking for $500 to $600 (which is great for Net surfing, typing papers stuff). But at the end, her daughter choose the Apple.  She had no clue how to use one, but it sure looks cool in college.  Imagine go to the class and take your computer out and  VA LA .. it is a MacBook Pro.  She must be a cool person that into style stuff.

What about in Starbuck?  Look at that guy sitting at the corner, he is using a  .. what ...  a bulky PC running Windoz ...wait a min, is that a desktop or laptop?  What a loser!

Anyway, Macs are cool while PC (Windows) are great and Linux are for geeks (Those 3D desktop from Linux are just so cool, but nobody market it of course).


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## Nikon_Josh (Mar 16, 2012)

Mac is worth the premium for the OS in my opinion! I couldn't go back to the clunky Windows system again now and this coming from someone who knows alot about Windows and knows how to resolve and fix numerous issues. I just prefer the simplicity of the MAC OS though overall. I love my Mac! BUT I am NOT a MAC fanboy, I realise Apple are actually a nasty company who like to overprice their products at every turn.

My problem now with Macs is the fact they are getting more popular.. which means all of the moronic mac users who always say 'MAC's don't get Viruses' will be left looking like the idiots that they are. Admittedly at the moment, there are still not many viruses designed to attack MAC users. But when the marketshare increases.. the more likely it is that you will see ALOT of viruses being designed to attack MAC computers. And I am hoping Apple will be able to deal with this as alot of the time they are actually very slow to react to many situations that matter. It was only a few years ago that Apple would claim that you couldn't hack a MAC and that MAC's can't get a Virus, then some nerds found they could hack a MAC in little to no time. Let's hope Apple don't approach this matter with their usual arrogance.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 16, 2012)

Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"


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## Dao (Mar 16, 2012)

Nikon_Josh,

I agree with you on the virus issue.   From I what I learned, since Mac is getting popular, so attacker will use them.  In fact couple years ago, I saw the news that Botnet people already start using Mac.    It is all about money.  If someone need to create a botnet army, they will go with the one with the larger market share.   If botnet operator#1 has 2 million zombies windows box while botnet operator#2 only have 200,000, who is going to hire the botnet operator#2.

Last time I read, they charge about 10K a day for DDoS a site.  Of course, spammers use Botnet too.  So as long as money is involve and Mac market share is still low, number of new virus made that target Mac will still be lower than Windows market.

It is not hard to hack a system as long as human is involved.   How to gain access to a computer?  Sometimes it is as easy as ask the computer user to install the virus nicely.   i.e.  A email from the company IT admin found a trojan in your computer, please run this program to get rid of it.


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## Nikon_Josh (Mar 16, 2012)

Dao said:


> Nikon_Josh,
> 
> I agree with you on the virus issue.   From I what I learned, since Mac is getting popular, so attacker will use them.  In fact couple years ago, I saw the news that Botnet people already start using Mac.    It is all about money.  If someone need to create a botnet army, they will go with the one with the larger market share.   If botnet operator#1 has 2 million zombies windows box while botnet operator#2 only have 200,000, who is going to hire the botnet operator#2.
> 
> ...



Yes I agree, I hope your right. The virus issue will remain small on the MAC due to the still much much lower market share, having to use anti virus software will take away some of the joy of mac use!

Tell me about it though, I spent 3 hours the other day sorting out the computer of a lady I work with, she installed the trojan fake antivirus program and paid for it when it came up and told her she had 33 viruses on her computer. But it was an easy mistake to make if you are not computer minded, she thought it was her existing anti virus program bringing up the prompt. It would seem a good business move for the hackers, that was 40 pounds profit whilst offering nothing. They do a good job of making the software look authentic aswell, only when you read the way they write stuff do you know its a complete scam i.e 'Your computer is going to crash at any second due to viruses, install this before you lose all your data!'  

These particular trojans seem to be the most common right now from what I can tell, my Dad has had two, my Mum has had one and now the lady I work with is the fourth computer I have had to sort out for this particular issue!  Getting tired of it.


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## Josh66 (Mar 16, 2012)

Derrel said:
			
		

> Quick--find and locate ALL the images that have been readied for printing on your hard drive, in 15 seconds, across 6,000 folders....that's probably impossible on a Win-doze box. If I search for "images" labeled "Gray"...I can find every single file in 6,000 folders, and have them in a list on my desktop in 15 seconds...no matter where they are, across multiple drives, and no matter what the file names are.


Well, since I keep things in separate folders (silly me...), it would be pretty easy.  I could just open that folder.

If all I needed was a list of the files, I would just type ~/Pictures/Print ls -R.  Pretty sure I could do that in 15 seconds...

Edit
Actually, that's wrong - should be:
ls -R ~/Pictures/Print


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## shootermcgee (Mar 16, 2012)

Hell yes they are worth the premium. I have never had any viruses with my macs (last 3 years) and never a problem.  Before them I had PC's that always got viruses or issues and were just junk in comparision. I don't have to have a computer tech as they never break down. They are just so hassle free and if did have any problem apple will take care of it for you quick. 

Computer guys don't like them as they think they can build something better but I haven't seen it yet.


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## Dao (Mar 16, 2012)

Nikon_Josh said:


> Yes I agree, I hope your right. The virus issue will remain small on the MAC due to the still much much lower market share, having to use anti virus software will take away some of the joy of mac use!
> 
> Tell me about it though, I spent 3 hours the other day sorting out the computer of a lady I work with, she installed the trojan fake antivirus program and paid for it when it came up and told her she had 33 viruses on her computer. But it was an easy mistake to make if you are not computer minded, she thought it was her existing anti virus program bringing up the prompt. It would seem a good business move for the hackers, that was 40 pounds profit whilst offering nothing. They do a good job of making the software look authentic aswell, only when you read the way they write stuff do you know its a complete scam i.e 'Your computer is going to crash at any second due to viruses, install this before you lose all your data!'
> 
> These particular trojans seem to be the most common right now from what I can tell, my Dad has had two, my Mum has had one and now the lady I work with is the fourth computer I have had to sort out for this particular issue!  Getting tired of it.



Lack of security sense is also an issue.  Especially for a Mac users that think they are not targeted.  And believe the system is so well build that they do not need to worry.   When it strike, it may cost more.  What about trojan that hidden in the computer with key logger?  Bank information?  Even so, your home wireless router or regular router maybe the target.  What if someone tap on to your wireless network and start sniffing?  Without security sense, if someone hack into your router, they may do something on the router and make your Mac think the fake bank of ameraica site is the real bank of america site. (DNS hijacking on router).

So even if people are using Mac, it is still better to have some security sense and have protection.


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## Natalie (Mar 16, 2012)

Derrel said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...


Despite your rabid enthusiasm, it really doesn't sound like an amazingly  useful function for someone who already knows how to organize their  photos. How many other Mac users on here make such heavy use of this  color-coding thing? And for what it's worth, it sounds like it works  exactly like the rating system on Windows 7, which I also don't use. I  can rate individual images or whole batches of images on a 1-5 star  scale and look through the folders and instantly see 5-star images, or  1-star images, or whatever I want. If I enter "*****" into the search  bar, it will bring up a list of every 5-star image on the computer in  about two or three seconds, or just in a specific folder I want to  search.

Useful for some people I guess, but again, my photos are already organized and I don't need it.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 16, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"



^^^^^ that for page 5 too


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## boomer (Mar 16, 2012)

A computer is only as good/organized/safe as the person using it. It's really as simple as that...


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 16, 2012)

Derrel said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



There are comparable ratings systems on Windows (5 star rating system, tagging, grouping) as well. Windows has advanced their file indexing system so this type of organization and workflow is possible in Windows 7. However, I don't think that the feature is as commonly used as you think on either platform. It surely isn't enough of a reason for me or for others to opt in to a completely different system. 

One of the things that always bothered me about the Mac-heads hasn't been discussed much in this thread. When I worked at the Apple store, I was constantly irritated by a lot of the Mac users. It seemed there was some common invisible thread that linked all of these people together. I don't know if it's because of the particular market segment that Mac targets, or just that Mac users feel the need to justify their platform choice. But I've noticed on many occasions they seem to come off a bit snobbish and superior, looking down their noses at those who choose other platforms.

It's weird. At some point their choice in operating system/computer became eerily religious. Like a cult almost. 

Sure Apple has their own culture, and that's fine. But it gets taken a little too far, most of the time by Mac users. My guess, since they are the minority they constantly feel the need to be defensive. But some Mac-heads in this thread just come off desperate, extreme, and irrational. It's a bit silly.


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## chuasam (Mar 16, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> When I worked at the Apple store, I was constantly irritated by a lot of the Mac users. It seemed there was some common invisible thread that linked all of these people together. I don't know if it's because of the particular market segment that Mac targets, or just that Mac users feel the need to justify their platform choice. But I've noticed on many occasions they seem to come off a bit snobbish and superior, looking down their noses at those who choose other platforms.
> 
> It's weird. At some point their choice in operating system/computer became eerily religious. Like a cult almost.
> 
> Sure Apple has their own culture, and that's fine. But it gets taken a little too far, most of the time by Mac users. My guess, since they are the minority they constantly feel the need to be defensive. But some Mac-heads in this thread just come off desperate, extreme, and irrational. It's a bit silly.


They let you work there without making you drink the KoolAid?


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## usayit (Mar 16, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> One of the things that always bothered me about the Mac-heads hasn't been discussed much in this thread. When I worked at the Apple store, I was constantly irritated by a lot of the Mac users. It seemed there was some common invisible thread that linked all of these people together. I don't know if it's because of the particular market segment that Mac targets, or just that Mac users feel the need to justify their platform choice. But I've noticed on many occasions they seem to come off a bit snobbish and superior, looking down their noses at those who choose other platforms.



I would only agree with you except ONE major thing just doesn't fit.

Almost each and every of this type of thread starts with someone (assuming Windows user)

* Apple is so expensive
* Apple sucks
* Why Apple?

I can't recall I single thread started by someone who (assuming an Apple user) saying, why Windows?  Any response is automatically considered defensive even though most of those responding here have given responses that are completely rational. 

It's only perceived as a cult simply because they are the minority.  I guarantee if Windows were the minority, the perception of the Windows cult would be exactly the same.   So yeh.. I would say that Mac users can be defensive but why are Windows users so OFFENSIVE simply because someone made a different choice? 



You want to see a similar reaction along different lines?  Google Leica....   People just can't help but attack things they can't or easily afford...  Just like Mac vs Windows, the first thing people say... waste of money.. I can do the same with less.... completely ignoring the perfectly valid reasons other present.

Here's news folks.... sometimes... it isn't how expensive something is... but how darn cheap the alternative is.


As for security, part of the issue with windows is that for a long time the main users of a particular Windows machine was running with Administrator privileges while Linux/Unix (Mac OSX adopting) had a very rich way of managing User and Group access.   Restricting those privileges on a Windows box resulted in a user experience that was frustrating limited to say the least.  For one, applications couldn't be installed because Windows failed to design a proper software deployment strategy.  This was not true for Linux/Unix.  MAC OS X went even further allowing applications to be installed as a single self contained resource. Another example: Some key loggers relied on the I/O stack in kernel space.  Any windows user with Administrator privs can be exploited to install on that stack.  Regular non-root Linux/Unix (and Mac os x) users cannot and do not have access.  Exploits are reliant on gaining "root" access to a system.  Securing "root" is a whole lot easier.  This earned Windows a bad reputation.    Windows relies on a single community to improve security... Microsoft.   Its security is reliant on their reaction and proficiency.

Granted... I will admit, I observed much improvement with Win7 and Windows Server 2008.   Its about time. 



So here we go again....  Would someone... anyone.. tell me the equivalent of the following command in windows?  before I tell the Windows admin forget it and load cygwin on his windows server?

find . -name "*.jar" | xargs -I{} mv {} {}.old


PS> I wasn't a Mac user until MAC OS X... it fit me because I was a heavy Unix and Linux user.


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## NE-KID (Mar 16, 2012)

Okay here's my view on this subject...I went with a Apple Macbook Pro laptop coming from a PC laptop I got tired dealing with sorry tech support from India (Gateway) no offense to anyone from India. I like my Apple Macbook Pro a lot yes I do have my laptop protected with Lojack since I do travel around the states so in case I forget my laptop or it gets stolen only thing I need to do is report it stolen get a police report and Lojack does the rest with the local police/sheriff office. What Lojack does is once I report my laptop stolen next time the person who stole my laptop gets on the internet it will take a picture using the webcam with out them knowing it and etc. I also do have Apple Pro Care as well which really worth it to me it cost me $99 dollars you get a clack card that has a Apple logo on it and serial number on the bottom of the card and if you have a Appointment with a Apple Genius at the Apple Store they will scan your card and you'll get your laptop, phone, iMac next in line for servicing.


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## rexbobcat (Mar 16, 2012)

In my opinion, the seemingly inflated price is basically caused by proprietary parts, because as you'll notice Apple products only usually work with Apple products. 

It's like the difference between buying a pure bred and a mutt. They could both perform the same at the task at hand, but because one is pure bred it will be more valuable/expensive


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## TheBiles (Mar 16, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> In my opinion, the seemingly inflated price is basically caused by proprietary parts, because as you'll notice Apple products only usually work with Apple products.
> 
> It's like the difference between buying a pure bred and a mutt. They could both perform the same at the task at hand, but because one is pure bred it will be more valuable/expensive


 
No, that's Apple screwing consumers out of $20 so they have to get their garbage proprietary cables instead of regular USB. The core components of their computers are the exact same as their Windows counterparts, only with a vastly inflated price. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## cepwin (Mar 16, 2012)

As others have said, the price vs power edge goes to the PC...I would argue even store bought.  That being said, a lot of people like the fact that the Macs tend to be more "just works" than Windows.  In fact I do know of people that got so frustrated with their PC laptop they went mac and were happy with their choice.   In the end, it depends what you need/want to do with it..that is the basis for all HW purchase decisions.   If you need a beast, and especially if you want to also use it for gaming a PC is the better options.


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## usayit (Mar 16, 2012)

Have you looked at the insides of an Apple... its pretty proprietary.   A good example are the Mac Pro workstations.   As for peripherals... there is a debate on the good vs bad of having third party people writing software that integrates (possibly taints) with your O/S.   Unix has historically followed the same model.  Windows and Linux the opposite.

If they wanted to screw customers out they could have easily not adopted USB at all...


BTW.. macsales.com is a good alternative to Mac related hardware.



So who is being defensive????


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## usayit (Mar 16, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> That's what I like about linux, lol - you can change stuff like that.  You can basically make it look just like Mac, just like Windows, or different than both.



Here's a hint for a "project" for you to figure out.

Mac OS X comes equipped with X11 server/client and everything you need to start a traditional Linux window manager (it comes with the old TWM window manager).    Try to find or build a window manager of your choice. 

The MacPorts Project -- Home


I never did it... because I ended up just running Linux on another machine.  It would sure neat to see it running though.


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## Dao (Mar 16, 2012)

usayit said:


> As for security, part of the issue with windows is that for a long time the main users of a particular Windows machine was running with Administrator privileges while Linux/Unix (Mac OSX adopting) had a very rich way of managing User and Group access.   Restricting those privileges on a Windows box resulted in a user experience that was frustrating limited to say the least.  For one, applications couldn't be installed because Windows failed to design a proper software deployment strategy.  This was not true for Linux/Unix.  MAC OS X went even further allowing applications to be installed as a single self contained resource. Another example: Some key loggers relied on the I/O stack in kernel space.  Any windows user with Administrator privs can be exploited to install on that stack.  Regular non-root Linux/Unix (and Mac os x) users cannot and do not have access.  Exploits are reliant on gaining "root" access to a system.  Securing "root" is a whole lot easier.  This earned Windows a bad reputation.    Windows relies on a single community to improve security... Microsoft.   Its security is reliant on their reaction and proficiency.
> 
> Granted... I will admit, I observed much improvement with Win7 and Windows Server 2008.   Its about time.
> 
> ...




The problem we are facing now is the hackers or botnet operators are not looking to gain root access.  It was about 10 years ago, but not today.   Not sure how that the botnet operate in the Mac machines back in 2009.  But in most of the Unix machines out there, the bot usually running as a regular user and open a port back out.   Or for botnet, the botnet script running as a regular user and  contact a master server(s) out there (target port maybe 6666 or 6667) and waiting for command.   Since Mac is running on top of a Unix OS, so I am not surprised that a Mac machine will become the botnet zombie.  

As for your question about finding all the files with extension jar (*.jar) in the current directory and rename the extension to old (*.old) .....  I do not know enough to do it in windows.  It maybe possible since Windows has powershell now.  (similar to Unix shell I believe and with scripting support) see more in Windows PowerShell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## usayit (Mar 16, 2012)

Dao said:
			
		

> The problem we are facing now is the hackers or botnet operators are not looking to gain root access.  It was about 10 years ago, but not today.   Not sure how that the botnet operate in the Mac machines back in 2009.  But in most of the Unix machines out there, the bot usually running as a regular user and open a port back out.   Or for botnet, the botnet script running as a regular user and  contact a master server(s) out there (target port maybe 6666 or 6667) and waiting for command.   Since Mac is running on top of a Unix OS, so I am not surprised that a Mac machine will become the botnet zombie.
> 
> As for your question about finding all the files with extension jar (*.jar) in the current directory and rename the extension to old (*.old) .....  I do not know enough to do it in windows.  It maybe possible since Windows has powershell now.  (similar to Unix shell I believe and with scripting support) see more in Windows PowerShell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Dao,  I am very familiar with what you are saying (worked in tandem with a security team)..  A well secured server will not allow any regular user to open an arbitrary port out.... much less insert the code into a user account to begin with.  The core idea is that no regular user account can be and should not be trusted.   Most security breeches can be traced back to user error at the system administrator level and it takes effort.   There are common behaviors in production servers that are known problems but many organizations (and home users) simply dont know or dont have the time to invest.  For example, I was able to compromise the backup admins account on his console.   His account is relatively low level so no one put much thought into it.  But what happens when I back up a simple malicious application and restore it to a target machine overwritting /bin/login for example?   I get access to people's passwords.   Or how about restoring over Notepad.exe?  It didnt dawn in people's mind that the backupmclient app is running as the windows system account or linux root?    Properly configured, this would not have happened.... btw much easier to accomplish with Linux/Unix permissions or a properly configured LDAP (whole different chapter).   Another is screwing with system paths; I cant tell you how many put the current directory path in path because they are lazy.   There was a time that any windows user application can run an infinite loop malloc and brings the server to its knees.... not even enough cycles to hit ctrl alt del and bring up the process manager.    Unix is a bit more resilient to this.        there are dozens of ways but most can be traced to the user.    

The key here is that it takes effort.. human effort...  unix and linux are by design more secured out-of-box....   I am not saying that Windows cannot be secured it just is not as secured out of box.  Mac OSX has root disabled by default.  Linux has Unix have limits placed on root.   As such Windows has earned a bad reputation...   


It may be counterintuitive but my experience has lead me to believe that open source has resulted in much more secured systems....  it taps into the resources of wide intellegent community  While proprietary software can only rely solely on a single organizations efforts.   Security should be an active approach rather than relying on the mear fact that what happens under the covers is unknown.    Algorithms and processes rather than secrets.  

Powershell doesnt exist in this version of Windows.   I guess cygwin it is....


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## dakkon76 (Mar 16, 2012)

I received my new iPad today. It matches my iPhone. I've still got a PC, but I covet my wife's Mac sitting next to me. This will be the last PC I own.

Anyway... I'm enjoying my fancy new iPad and don't really have anything constructive to add... not that it would sway anyone one way or another anyway.

eacesign:


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## usayit (Mar 16, 2012)

Funny... I have a first gen ipad but my next  will be an android based tablet... lol      I had android phones in the past but switched to iphone recently..... out of curiosity.  I think I will gomback to an android phone when the times comes.


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## Josh220 (Mar 17, 2012)

usayit said:


> Funny... I have a first gen ipad but my next  will be an android based tablet... lol      I had android phones in the past but switched to iphone recently..... out of curiosity.  I think I will gomback to an android phone when the times comes.



The good news is you have plenty of options to choose from since they release a new model every other week in 16 different colors in a desperate attempt to make a small dent in the smartphone market. 

A phone that can get viruses? No thank you! Does Norton offer security protection for Androids? :lmao:


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## rpm (Mar 17, 2012)

actually in his defence. the Android market is actually has the largest share in the smartphone market. secondly the top tier phones don't get replaced that often once a year (just like Apple)....the ones that are roaming the market in general are tier 3 and below phones. the iPhone is a tier 1 phone.


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## Josh220 (Mar 17, 2012)

Technically speaking, because their OS is spread out through so many brands, yes. 

Rats reproduce faster than stallions...

However, the top 3 selling smartphones are from Apple, and the last report I saw listed the top Android OS device at #5. Even Blackberry had them beat.


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## rpm (Mar 17, 2012)

i understand that but my point stands their top tier phones get replaced just as often as Apple's. thing is phone wise you can't only have a tier 1 phone. personally unless Apple becomes the only phone manufacturer and assuming they don't get surpassed in terms of "most expensive phone" without a contract; its not the kind of phone you'd buy for everyone. its not a phone for everyone. my dad doesn't use half the features or a 1/3 of the features of his Nokia N8; he doesn't even want me to activate his email on it. he would have no use for an iPhone in all its practical sense; he's no better off with his phone than using an old Nokia N75. also you wouldn't buy an iPhone as your child's first phone would you? there's little things that a product like an iPhone can't cater to. in general the market at large. its a solid phone. i love it. but i can live without all the bells and whistles like did with my BB Bold. I got this cause my cell phone provider offered it as an upgrade for me. I said sure thing. I use both. also where are you getting your sales figure from? is that global? US?


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

oh no did I just start an IOS vs Android debate?   hahahaha 

I want am considering tinkering with the phone ...  Android is more interesting in that aspect... OS and SDK wise.   IOS has a more intuitive cleaner user experience but it isnt as flexible as Android.  A while back I mentioned that often a cleaner more intuitive User experience abstracts out complexities and a more flexible user eexperience offers more flexibility but can be less intuitive.  This is one case the latter interests me more.     

The biggest selling point to the public is the user experience (not to be confused by pure UI design) offered by the iphone.....  I am not denying that..   Its absolutely brilliant.  
Apple has been extremely conservative with the IOS UI...  very careful not to ruin the formula that has generated billions of profit.  The side effect of that... I have become somewhat bored of it.  As I mentioned, I like Mac OSX so I went to the iphone out of curiosity when my 2 year interval for a discounted phone plus the huge drop in price of the iphone 4 made the out of pocket expense nominal.  


Other things...

The GPS was far better on my android.  
I kinda miss the widgets that provide at a glance information.   iOS always requires a selection of an app from home screen before any info is presented.
Their are options for a larger screen phone.  Iphone only comes in a single size.
The interface can be complete replaced.

There are some very interesting tablet hardware designs out there.  Some are designed to be more like a laptop with an attached keyboard while allowing the tablet screen to be detached when you dont need it.   The keyboard section has a secondary battery for longer running time.  Its an integrated design rather than an accessory like the ipad.  I have grown to loath tapping on the ipad screen at times... but I like its form factor.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

Josh220 said:


> usayit said:
> 
> 
> > Funny... I have a first gen ipad but my next  will be an android based tablet... lol      I had android phones in the past but switched to iphone recently..... out of curiosity.  I think I will gomback to an android phone when the times comes.
> ...


 
If by "desperate attempt to make a small dent in the smartphone market" you mean "global leader in market share." Android is king now, buddy. You literally have to be illiterate to get any kind of malicious app on Android since the Market very clearly outlines the permissions each app has and displays the reviews from other people. Believe it or not, people actually like having the freedom to choose a phone that fits their needs and then to customize it. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

The only reason android has more share is because they put it on cheap crappy phones to the 3rd world countries and to cheap markets. That's all. So market share is not even worth looking at. The king. Lmao!


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## manaheim (Mar 17, 2012)

Amiga rulz?


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Amiga rulz?



I've been tempted... just because...

Commodore USA

prices

http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64Select.aspx

Each time I have cash for it... something photography related catches my attention instead..


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> The only reason android has more share is because they put it on cheap crappy phones to the 3rd world countries and to cheap markets. That's all. So market share is not even worth looking at. The king. Lmao!



WAIT A FREAKIN MINUTE!!

When it comes to Mac vs PC.... Cheap is good

but

When it comes to iPhone vs Android... Cheap is bad???


WTF?


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## digital flower (Mar 17, 2012)

usayit said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> > The only reason android has more share is because they put it on cheap crappy phones to the 3rd world countries and to cheap markets. That's all. So market share is not even worth looking at. The king. Lmao!
> ...



 
Didnt the OP want to know about computers?


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## manaheim (Mar 17, 2012)

The only thing that makes a system less secure is the people who manage it.  People think they can manage a windows system with little to no training because it's easy to click your way around, but those systems are always the ones that get hacked.

It's pretty obvious.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

usayit said:
			
		

> WAIT A FREAKIN MINUTE!!
> 
> When it comes to Mac vs PC.... Cheap is good
> 
> ...



I never said in the pc world cheap is better. Actually the opposite.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> The only reason android has more share is because they put it on cheap crappy phones to the 3rd world countries and to cheap markets. That's all. So market share is not even worth looking at. The king. Lmao!



3rd world countries like the United States, huh?  And the post I was replying to directly addressed the "smartphone market," which is dominated in every way by Android. Fastest growth, most devices, widest range of carriers, and more devices by a mile.


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## Dao (Mar 17, 2012)

I like my Android phone, and the next phone  .. most likely is going to be Android.


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## Dao (Mar 17, 2012)

So we covered Mac vs PC, Android vs IOS.    What's next?


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

Dao said:
			
		

> So we covered Mac vs PC, Android vs IOS.    What's next?



Men vs women?


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

Let's just throw in 

Nikon vs Canon too...


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

That too easy. We all know is Nikon.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm just going to say it: Coke is better than Pepsi.


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

blah..

Women with CANONS


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## Brandman (Mar 17, 2012)

Tommo said:


> digital flower said:
> 
> 
> > Macs are more expensive?  I wouldn't know since I didnt consider buying anything else but I didn't need the latest or fastest computer. MY MBP seems to do everything I want it to fast enough (like processing large batches of photos). It was an easy decision after using the the wife's Dell laptop a few times. The filing/folder system on the Mac is superior for my needs and I seem to have found software for everything I want it do. The screen is wonderful and it hooked into my home network flawlessly ( about 2 minutes to get get everything connected).
> ...


 
This point is irrelevant because your laptop screen nor your tv are color critical monitors. If you are really concerned about the color get an external wide gamut monitor. When it comes to laptop screens the color depends on the angle that you have the screen


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

We agree on something. Coke is better than Pepsi


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## Brandman (Mar 17, 2012)

Yes they are worth the price. The people that say that they would choose a windows machine over a Mac have 1 either can't afford one or 2 haven't used a Mac extensively.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

In the end. A company don't become successful by selling something that is not worth it. 

It don't matter how much marketing you throw at it

Marketing it's just to put your brand out there. You may sell here and there a small amount. But ultimately if the product is crap. Family, friends, neighbors and co-worker will not recommend it. 

If you sell crap there would not be positive reviews. 

As a photographer I'm sure you know that. 

It doesn't matter how much marketing you do. If you don't deliver you are not getting booked again


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## chuasam (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> We agree on something. Coke is better than Pepsi


in the same sorta way that dying by firing squad is better than electrocution.


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## Brandman (Mar 17, 2012)

chuasam said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> > We agree on something. Coke is better than Pepsi
> ...


 
Lol!!


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## ShootProof (Mar 17, 2012)

My personal feeling is that Apple computers are indeed worth the price premium. Especially, as you mentioned, if you've bought into the Apple ecosystem already. The interaction between devices is so intuitive, and while there is definitely a learning curve involved in making the switch from PC to Mac, the clean interface and cutting edge technology is, in my opinion, unbeatable. But, there's no denying that you will pay more for similar specs. 

Parallels is a great solution for accessing those Windows only programs, though the switchover from Mac mode to PC mode can be slow. Once open, everything runs as quickly as any PC I've owned.


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## mjhoward (Mar 17, 2012)

chuasam said:


> Rotanimod said:
> 
> 
> > When I worked at the Apple store, I was constantly irritated by a lot of the Mac users. It seemed there was some common invisible thread that linked all of these people together. I don't know if it's because of the particular market segment that Mac targets, or just that Mac users feel the need to justify their platform choice. But I've noticed on many occasions they seem to come off a bit snobbish and superior, looking down their noses at those who choose other platforms.
> ...



If you choose farm raised grass-fed ground sirloin over pink slime, are you still 'drinking the koolaid'?  Or are you just a sensible person that prefers quality over crap?


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## splproductions (Mar 17, 2012)

I really held off on posting to this thread for a long time.  But I'll throw my two cents in.

I'm new to photography, but I've been in the audio recording business for 14 or so years.  To make a long story short, I started off with a PC based system.  Windows just wasn't stable enough for me.  It was nerve wracking as a young kid charging adults $25 an hour in my studio to have the blue screen of death come up, or have the program quit and lose the guitar solo they just did.  I felt impeded creatively by the PC.

I bought my first Mac at age 15, and it was a complete night and day difference.  There wasn't all the drama with getting drivers to work, having my software crash, etc.  Once I even completely ran out of hard drive space in the middle of a session, in the middle of a take.  Completely out of space.  And a screen just popped up saying I needed to delete something before proceeding.  I loved it.  The way the audio hardware, software, and Mac meshed together was wonderful.  I felt like instead of my computer being a hinderance to my creativity, it was now a boost.

Now, to be fair, back then Mac was light years ahead in the audio department.  All the top-tier software seemed to come out on MacOS first, and Windows was sort of an after-thought.  Windows is definitely caught up now in the audio department, and with technology becoming so accessible and home studios popping up everywhere, people want to do things on a budget.  PC's definitely have their share of the audio market now.  

But just from my past experience, I will never be doing pro audio without a Mac.  It's what the pros use.  Apple's complete control over the hardware and OS makes for a more innovative and pleasant user experience.  

And as far as "drinking the KoolAid", I was using a Mac back before it was the "trendy" thing to do.  This was before the Apple stores existed, before the iPhone, iPod, etc.

I went Mac and I'll never, ever, ever, ever go back.  Ever.  End of story.


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## molested_cow (Mar 17, 2012)

TheBiles said:


> I'm just going to say it: Coke is better than Pepsi.



Cus you live in Atlanta?

When I lived in Atlanta, no one asked for Pepsi in restaurants. NO ONE! I had to move to Florida to see Pepsi again!


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## Dao (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> In the end. A company don't become successful by selling something that is not worth it.
> 
> It don't matter how much marketing you throw at it
> 
> ...




Marketing is quite important in my opinion.  Who drink bottle water?  Who believe bottle water is better than tap water?  Who make you believe bottle water is better than tap water? (or at least trying to)  Pepsi  Aquafina bottle water has a facility in St. Louis area.  Guess where they get their water from.    But at lot of people still believe it is cleaner, healthier  .....  (whatever Pepsi market want us to believe)

So new topic:

Tap water vs bottle water


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"


 


2WheelPhoto said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"
> ...




^^^page 6 bump


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## manaheim (Mar 17, 2012)

splproductions said:


> I really held off on posting to this thread for a long time. But I'll throw my two cents in.
> 
> I'm new to photography, but I've been in the audio recording business for 14 or so years. To make a long story short, I started off with a PC based system. Windows just wasn't stable enough for me. It was nerve wracking as a young kid charging adults $25 an hour in my studio to have the blue screen of death come up, or have the program quit and lose the guitar solo they just did. I felt impeded creatively by the PC.
> 
> ...




*UGH...
*
This kind of thing is really what annoys me.

"15 years ago my PC sucked.  I got a Mac.  It was so much better.  I'll never go back because PCs suck."

Useful.

I've been in the industry supporting infrastructure for about 18 years now, and have been up to my eyeballs in all things computing for about 30.  I have supported, in total, many tens of thousands of servers and desktop systems across dozens of different infrastructures in as many companies.  I have run organizations supporting DOS, Windows, Novell, Macintosh, Linux, Solars, IRIX, AIX... you name it.  Let's just say I have a very broad view on these technologies and I'm more qualified than some dude who used a PC 15 years ago.

These operating systems... ALL operating systems... are only as secure and robust as the people using them.  Now... were Macintoshes more robust than DOS/Win3.1 however many years ago?  Sure.  Oh, until your users loaded up 32,562 fonts into them, causing them to pretty much implode.  And that happened... a lot.  Even so, generally... yeah, the MacOS was a more mature platform.

These days? They're all reasonably robust... until a user/system owner does something stupid.  And that happens... a lot.

The real problem is when users do not respect the power in their hands, and that is actually the ONE very serious issue with most Windows operating systems (exception to Windows Server 2008 Core)... it looks FAR too much like "my desktop" and is FAAAAR too easy to make configuration changes to, browse the web on *shudder* and hey... even install games on in some cases.  This leads users into thinking "Oh I can just do X and Y and boom!" with zero training or qualification.  I can't tell you the number of systems I've had to deal with that had a shared drive on C:\WINDOWS or something similar with Everyone: Full Control.  I mean seriously.  How stupid.  "Oh no my server was compromised!"  Shocker!

Then I put my hands on the thing and clamp it down hard and what's the first complaint...?  "I can't access the internet from my server!  I want to download some software!"  Durrr... 

Dump many of these users onto a Linux system and they're essentially lost and helpless and afraid to do anything to the box... so they get in, do what they need to, and get out.

Mac... well, Apple is restrictive as hell.  They won't LET you do a heck of a lot of the things that you can do in PC land, or they'll let you do it, but only let you do it "their way".  That cuts down a lot of the possibilities for compromising your own system.  People say "Macs are easy... they just work!"  Of course they do, because they've been designed to keep you in tight narrow corridors that are safe and keep you out of trouble.  If you're the kind of person who needs to be confined to keep from hurting yourself, then fine.  Mac for you.

I know all the whining and crying about viruses and such, but this is simply a matter of numbers.  Look at the software market.  Can you get EVERY title available for Macintosh?  Hell no.  Is it available for PC?  Almost without exception.  Why?  Because the target audience is MUCH larger.  If you're going to invest dollars and time to develop something, you're going to make it for the PC first and everything else second.  The same is true with viruses and trojans.  If you're going to make one, you're going to target PCs because they are waaaaaaaaaay more prevalent and you have waaaaaaaaaaay more open targets.

There is no question that Windows could be more secure by being far more restricted, and you see some of those changes present in Server 2008 and Windows 7.  You'll see more of it over time.  But you also see Microsoft doing things like making "Administrator" on Windows 7 not REALLY be a full and unrestricted administrator.  Why?  Because they know damned well that people think it's the god account and login with it and do very very stupid stuff.  They know, as many do, that their #1 problem with security is dumb users.  Not the OS itself.

Buy whatever machine works best for you.  Go with whatever OS fits your needs.  They ALL have pros and cons, and one of those pros or cons may really ring true with you personally... but this whole business about either one of them being better than the other is an absolute load of horse pucky spread by religious zealots and misinformed and untrained consumers who have too much ego tied up in their financial purchases.  Ignore them.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"
> ...




Interesting, it wasn't really that funny or clever on page 4 or 5 either. 

Let's both go get a computer on a $1,500 budget. You get a Mac, I'll get a PC. I'm happy, you're happy. 

You're happy because, according to you, a Mac is automatically better than everything out there. I'm happy to know that I bought twice the computer you did on the same budget.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 17, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Mac... well, Apple is restrictive as hell.  They won't LET you do a heck of a lot of the things that you can do in PC land, or they'll let you do it, but only let you do it "their way".  That cuts down a lot of the possibilities for compromising your own system.  People say "Macs are easy... they just work!"  Of course they do, because they've been designed to keep you in tight narrow corridors that are safe and keep you out of trouble.  *If you're the kind of person who needs to be confined to keep from hurting yourself, then fine.  Mac for you.*



:lmao:

Apple built their entire Mac empire on the fact that people are too incompetent to do simple things. Is everyone that uses a Mac incompetent? No. But there is no argument that the incompetent user is a segment Apple has ALWAYS targeted.


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## chuasam (Mar 17, 2012)

I used to work as a System Engineer in the early 2000s. I still used a Mac at home. I spent my entire working day fixing computers and dealing with virus issues. When I got home, I wanted something that worked.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

molested_cow said:


> TheBiles said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just going to say it: Coke is better than Pepsi.
> ...


 
Fun fact: Georgia Tech's on-campus Taco Bell is the only one that serves Coke. Every Pepsi logo on the menu has a sticker over it. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Dao (Mar 17, 2012)

TheBiles said:


> molested_cow said:
> 
> 
> > TheBiles said:
> ...



This is very interesting!   Because PepsiCo own Taco Bell


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"


 


Rotanimod said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...



I'm not a budget person, I'll pay a premium to not have second best.  Honestly I own both high end Mac and Windows machines. The Mac is a pleasure and Windows is just....Windows.


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## manaheim (Mar 17, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Mac... well, Apple is restrictive as hell. They won't LET you do a heck of a lot of the things that you can do in PC land, or they'll let you do it, but only let you do it "their way". That cuts down a lot of the possibilities for compromising your own system. People say "Macs are easy... they just work!" Of course they do, because they've been designed to keep you in tight narrow corridors that are safe and keep you out of trouble. *If you're the kind of person who needs to be confined to keep from hurting yourself, then fine. Mac for you.*
> ...



They don't put guard rails on roads because people are incomepetent.

I never called Mac people incompetent.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > Mac's are only for those who refuse to purchase "second best products"
> ...


 
Take equal amounts of money and find me a Mac that is more powerful than the equivalent PC. A high-end Windows desktop will annihilate any Mac in terms of hardware. You're paying for a brand name and nothing more.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 17, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Rotanimod said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...




I didn't either. I was pretty clear that not everyone who uses a Mac would fall in this category. Maybe for those who do, incompetent is too harsh. I'll go with "Technically challenged".


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## splproductions (Mar 17, 2012)

OK - so if nobody liked my emotion-invoking life story of my transition to Macs... 

Let's look at it this way.  Between school, studying, shopping (all done online), reading (e-books or news), and hobbies (audio, photography, web design, etc), I spend at least 50% of my waking hours during the week with some sort of screen in front of me.  That's a lot of time.  I might as well spend that time with products that I think are innovative, sleek, and sexy (Macbook, iPad, and iPhone).

If I had a job where I drove all day long for work, would I want a minivan, or would I want a Lexus with wood grain, navigation system, sunroof, and an awesome sound system?

So yes.  I'm paying for a name.  I'm also paying for better screen resolution than any other tablet (iPad).  I'm also paying for incredible integration between devices (iCloud with Lion, iOS5).  I'm also paying extra for a solid aluminum body laptop case and a beautiful screen.  I'm paying for a platform (iOS) that has better options for apps.

To each his own.  From my experience of all things Windows (whether my experience is flawed or not), those products feel like the minivan.  Apple's products feel like a Lexus to me.  If your Windows machine feels like that Lexus to you, then that's awesome, and you should definitely stick with it.  (No sarcasm here - I'm not trying to be a snob or anything).


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

TheBiles said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...



Beleive that with all your heart.  Well, true, Windows is* MUCH cheaper*.  Then again so is Wal-Mart, but I shop at Target for the same reasons I don't hardly fire up my high end windows machines anymore


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## Josh220 (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> high end windows



Lies! Oxymoron!


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

Josh220 said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > high end windows
> ...



haha  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




True, let me rephrase- expensive decent hardware running CRAPPY windows OS =)


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## Brandman (Mar 17, 2012)

TheBiles said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...


 
Yes you can find a windows machine with better hardware but your always going to be stuck with an unintuitive clunky operating system. It's like having a v12 engine connected to a transmission made for a 4 cylinder. The fact of the matter is macs use what they got way more efficiently than any windows machine which in the end provides a much more user friendly and powerful experience


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## Canuk (Mar 17, 2012)

TheBiles said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...



This has been dealt w/ on about page 4 or so. I have owned several of the high end PC gaming laptops $4000+ machines. All of them way overspec'd my Macbook. Plain and simple my Macbook runs faster cooler and with less problems. My Macbook Pro was under $3k. PC's coupled w/ windows os will always be clunky, slow and full of problems.


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

When we talk photographic equipment things are so clear to people.  They see the benefit that comes to spending the extra bucks for the for even a small amount of quality.  No one questions people's personal choices.   When it comes to computers (or anything else for that matter) its a foreign concept that cannot be comprehended.   Even worse they find ridiculous excuses to ridicule.   Let's take Derrel's response for example... who cares if some won't find his system useful.... it works for him... and his response should not be degraded.  


Sigma 24-70 f/2.8 or Tamron 24-70 f/2.8   VS  Canon 24-70 f/2.8L or Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8

OR

Consumer body VS prosumer/professional body (even equipped with similar spec'd sensors)

OR

Knock off tripod VS Gitzo/Manfrotto etc.

All of the above fall along the same lines.


IMO, there is even a bigger and immediately realized benefit for the premium of Mac OS X over a Window build versus the premium of shooting a Canon or Nikkor over a third party lens manufacturer.  Its amazing how short sighted people can be.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

Funny.. I have NONE of the windows OS problems so many are whining about.....  

It is all a matter of opinion.. and this is a totally stupid question and thread anyway... since it really is all based on opinion.


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

Funny... you calling the rest of us liars?

I used to work IT support.  The LAST thing you are suppose to say is "It works for me....".   Ultimately, others don't care if it works for you.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

usayit said:


> Funny... you calling the rest of us liars?
> 
> I used to work IT support.  The LAST thing you are suppose to say is "It works for me....".   Ultimately, others don't care if it works for you.



No.. not calling anyone liars.. just wondering why you had problems?  I still work in IT support.. because I am good at it! 

I get tired of all the the STUPID Windows vs MAC nonsense.... it is a waste of time. I get tired of all the silly FanBoi statements (Windows OR Mac) without any proof to back them up.. only Opinions! (and Opinions are like........... ?)


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok.... so what has been said..

Mac users: I like it.  Style. Good build.  Good filesystem.  Worth the money.  Good longevity.  Good usability.   (mine was "Linux like" therefore comfortable) I didn't like windows.  Windows had problems.  

Windows users: FanBoi responses and "you Mac users are terrible shoppers to spend too much".  Oh and you response...  Windows works for me you whiners.


Most if not all Mac users are/were Windows users.   Not all Windows users ever gave Mac OS X a good try (pretty obvious there are at least two here... one didn't even know that Mac have mouses with more than 1 button for years)  

Hmm....... a little short sighted aren't we?


I sure hope your response was not an indication of your support tactic.....   It ranks in the top ten things you should not say.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

usayit said:


> Ok.... so what has been said..
> 
> Mac users: I like it.  Style. Good build.  Good filesystem.  Worth the money.  Good longevity.  Good usability.   (mine was "Linux like" therefore comfortable) I didn't like windows.  Windows had problems.
> 
> ...




I support Macs as well as Windows machines.. and I will say the stupid people are less likely to break a Mac than a Windows machine, so I guess they have their uses!    And since I don't support anyone on this forum.. I am free to say what I choose! Been at IT for over 22 years... so yea, I know the ropes!


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## manaheim (Mar 17, 2012)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> I support Macs as well as Windows machines.. and I will say the stupid people are less likely to break a Mac than a Windows machine, so I guess they have their uses!    And since I don't support anyone on this forum.. I am free to say what I choose! Been at IT for over 22 years... so yea, I know the ropes!



This.


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## usayit (Mar 17, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> I support Macs as well as Windows machines.. and I will say the stupid people are less likely to break a Mac than a Windows machine, so I guess they have their uses!



There we go!!!   Probably the most contributing answer from a Windows user in this entire thread... better than "Fanboi" and "over-priced" statements that have been recited over and over again. 

I am now a software engineer working on Unix, Windows, and Linux platforms.  I do play a role in the design sessions.   If your product is easy enough to operate by all people of all sorts of skill levels (yes even stupid people), then you have achieved one of the principle goals of a good design.

One of the architects in our group likes to quote this:

Utilitas, firmitas, venustas.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

Rotanimod said:
			
		

> :lmao:
> 
> Apple built their entire Mac empire on the fact that people are too incompetent to do simple things. Is everyone that uses a Mac incompetent? No. But there is no argument that the incompetent user is a segment Apple has ALWAYS targeted.



You are wrong. I have built windows computer before. I don't want to do that any more. Incompetent peoria are everywhere including windows owners. Like the one that take the pc to geek squad.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

Dao said:
			
		

> Marketing is quite important in my opinion.  Who drink bottle water?  Who believe bottle water is better than tap water?  Who make you believe bottle water is better than tap water? (or at least trying to)  Pepsi  Aquafina bottle water has a facility in St. Louis area.  Guess where they get their water from.    But at lot of people still believe it is cleaner, healthier  .....  (whatever Pepsi market want us to believe)
> 
> So new topic:
> 
> Tap water vs bottle water



I don't think so. And the times I buy bottle water is because I'm on the road and there no assessable. Or I actual long want the plastic bottle for some purpose. 

Some people my think bottle water is better but not all if them

Back to my point. 

A lot of people buy bottle water for convenience. Just easier to get water on the road.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

If Microsoft limited the hardware and software that was available for Windows PCs.. and thoroughly tested and vetted every piece of hardware and software that was to go on a windowd machine (thereby greatly reducing the different combinations and creativity currently available).. then Windows PC's would be as reliable as MACs.  (This is what APPLE does.. by controlling this aspect to such a restrictive degree, they can ensure better reliability in the hardware! And by not even allowing users to do some things that can "break" the software, they greatly reduce problems caused by human interaction! Just not a model I care for!)

The whole "MAC interface is easier" is debatable, as anyone with a modicum of intelligence can easily learn either OS.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

i'm a reformed mac hater and still use windows occasionally too, but i suspect manyare just throwing bait in the thread?


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> i'm a reformed mac hater and still use windows occasionally too, but i suspect manyare just throwing bait in the thread?



I am not a "MAC hater".... I just hate the stupid arguing! I hope you don't think I am "throwing bait"! 

I have purposely stayed out of this thread for the majority of the time it has been around, because the whole argument is nonsensical! just like the Nikon vs Canon crap.... (Now Sony??? That is a different story!   lol!


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

I agreed. I'm done posting. Everybody just get what you like and enjoy. 

I know what I like.  I've been in many sides to decide on my own what I should spend my money on.


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## Dao (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you are saying the 50 billions bottle waters sold in US a year are form people who bought them on the road?


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## jaicatalano (Mar 17, 2012)

It's only worth it because I own stock. Other than that it's pretty dam stupid.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > i'm a reformed mac hater and still use windows occasionally too, but i suspect manyare just throwing bait in the thread?
> ...




Nooooo I didn't think you are throwing bait at all!  If anything I was slinging more of that than most anyway =)


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## Balmiesgirl (Mar 17, 2012)

Is a mac worth the extra $? 
Yes!!!!!!!!!
Up to a year ago I was a windows only girl. I got a 27" iMac and haven't looked back ( except to wonder what took me so long!).... I love it! But I only use my computer for work ...(no gaming etc) .. I run my photoshop and Lightroom and all of my plug ins on it. It's blazing fast and rock solid! I haven't managed to figure out how to crash it yet  on my old pc if I opened up more than two dozen photos in photoshop cs5 at a time I got the death spiral! It was a time consuming nightmare. 
Unlike others who think macs are hacker proof ... I still run antivirus and firewalls... Better safe than sorry. These images are my bread and butter I have to keep them safe!!!!
When I bought it I was concerned about it not being compatible with my current software. I bought parallels for windows and have only used less than a dozen times.


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## TheBiles (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> TheBiles said:
> 
> 
> > 2WheelPhoto said:
> ...


 
There's a difference between buying cheaper, lower-quality things at Walmart and buying the exact same computer components that you would find in a Mac for half the price. There aren't "generic" Intel processors or nVidia graphics cards. Please be less ignorant about building computers. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Josh66 (Mar 17, 2012)

Target isn't exactly the pinnacle of quality shopping either ... especially when compared to Walmart...


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Target isn't exactly the pinnacle of quality shopping either ... especially when compared to Walmart...



In my town its cleaner, higher quality products, no long lines, not like an "airport hanger" like our super wal-mart. lacks the "peopleofwalmart.com" factor.  I'll pay the extra 1-2 % to shop target over Wally world but each to  his own


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## Josh66 (Mar 17, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:
			
		

> In my town its cleaner, higher quality products, no long lines, not like an "airport hanger" like our super wal-mart. lacks the "peopleofwalmart.com" factor.  I'll pay the extra 1-2 % to shop target over Wally world but each to  his own



I my town, Target & Walmart are pretty much the exact same thing, with different logos...

Edit
If anything, Target is the slightly trashier one, around here anyway...


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> Target isn't exactly the pinnacle of quality shopping either ... especially when compared to Walmart...



Target it Maine is like Wal-Mart with a cut and a shave, but their prices are still similar... Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yeah.


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## IByte (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:
			
		

> You are wrong. I have built windows computer before. I don't want to do that any more. Incompetent peoria are everywhere including windows owners. Like the one that take the pc to geek squad.



Geek Squad is pretty good, not our fault we are forced to charge outrageous prices.  But then again it's no different than a mechanic charging 125 for changing oil...just saying.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

Man wow this thread has taken some turns, walmart/target shoppers, geek squad or no.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm fascinated people on here are defending super walmart. I'm used to hearing all the long line complaints and such yet when I ask the same people if they shop elsewhere they reply they usually don't.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

IByte said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Huge overstatement. Geek Squad is about as good as the Apple 'Geniuses' ('genius' also being a huge overstatement).


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## IByte (Mar 17, 2012)

o hey tyler said:
			
		

> Huge overstatement. Geek Squad is about as good as the Apple 'Geniuses' ('genius' also being a huge overstatement).



Lol the tech geeks yeah, but it's not techs fault people don't read or learn from YouTube.  The people who come in thier seem to think computers work on magic.


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

IByte said:
			
		

> Geek Squad is pretty good, not our fault we are forced to charge outrageous prices.  But then again it's no different than a mechanic charging 125 for changing oil...just saying.



My point is that he says only incompetent people buy macs. Well there's  many windows user that are incompetent and need help too


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

IByte said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suppose there are some good individuals within Geek Squad, but I have had to fix to many systems that were taken to them to ever recommend them!


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

I could buy everything inside the iMac 27" for have the price? 

But it won't buy me the pleasure of using the iMac 27"

Haters will talk about this kool-aid that Mac user drink. Well give me some more!!!

Because PCs didn't have me this joy!!!

They are worth every penny!


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

IByte said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, but all GeekSquad "team members" do is insert an MRI BDM disc that solves 95% of diagnostic issues with a few mouse clicks.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> I could buy everything inside the iMac 27" for have the price?
> 
> But it won't buy me the pleasure of using the iMac 27"
> 
> ...



And yet you fail to realize that the obvious joy you get from using a Mac, that a lot of people also get when using a PC. It's called personal preference dude.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

IByte said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since when is YouTube considered an educational facility? lol!


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## gerardo2068 (Mar 17, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> > I could buy everything inside the iMac 27" for have the price?
> ...



That's what I said before, Buy what you like and enjoy!

I don't like PC and I don enjoy them.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > gerardo2068 said:
> ...



I don't like Macs and I don't enjoy them. 

And yes, you could buy all the components inside a 27" iMac and run OSX on it and still have the same experience.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 17, 2012)

gerardo2068 said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > gerardo2068 said:
> ...



Fine! You have a right to your opinion.. but if you don't want us talking bad about MACS and Mac Users, maybe you should stop 'dissin the PC's!   It works both ways!


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 17, 2012)

If you want the best of both worlds, Mac users, maybe some of you are smart enough to build a Hackintosh. I know my friend did:

OSx86 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you do don't pay the premium for the brand/overpriced hardware and you get the OS you want.

I could do it, but personally, I'll stick with Win 7 (and I've explained my reasoning earlier in the thread)


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## Josh220 (Mar 18, 2012)

End of discussion.


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## IByte (Mar 18, 2012)

Most of the computers that I've seen and diagnosed were people just being lazy, not to say there dumb, but they don't realize whichever OS you use needs firmware updates.  Then when we try to tell them simple maintenance is needed they get flustered saying they have a virus.  Also youtube does have some good tutorials after you navigate through useless stuff.  A client didn't know how to use there own buit in diagnostic available.  I give them the option to try it home, run the updates at the store or keep it for almost a full week. The boot disc we use does not necessarily fix the the issue, but just allows us to "see" what's inside causing the problem(s). Many people could in fact save money and time by watching a few tutorials on hard drives replacement.  More than likely it's illegally installed content that's wrecking havock to their system.  Is it perfect? No but if many clients install their updates they would have fewer fundamental issues.


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## usayit (Mar 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> gerardo2068 said:
> 
> 
> > o hey tyler said:
> ...



Do a search in this thread for his username.  You'll find that he has done no such thing.   

That's the problem with this thread.....  

Read through the thread (filter out the crap)... every reasonable reason for liking a Mac is given is usually met with ridicule from the other camp.   Stating why you like Mac is an opinion... an opinion the OP asked for.   An opinion they are entitled to.  


You want to know when this thread went south? its in post #15

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...958-macs-worth-price-premium.html#post2535371

Everyone was stating their opinion no one was ridiculing the responses until  THAT post.....  from the WINDOWS camp.  It happens each and every single time with only price really being the major issue with Mac; an issue being reiterated over and over...   The kicker is that the threads ends with a Windows user saying "stop dissin PCs".  Hahah like your response.


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## IByte (Mar 18, 2012)

But to answer the OP question no IMO.  Stable OS, but not worth the over-hyped up price they make you pay for.  I will say Macs in general have a very good resale value over PCs.  I'd if you can afford it, buy it, try it; and you like or not return it within a week good luck.


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## manaheim (Mar 18, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> IByte said:
> 
> 
> > o hey tyler said:
> ...



It's actually pretty awesome as an aid for learning how to play banjo.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 18, 2012)

hah!


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## IByte (Mar 18, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:
			
		

> hah!



Yay!


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## Dao (Mar 18, 2012)

manaheim said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > IByte said:
> ...



It is not youtube is an educational facility, it is companies, organizations or group that try to teach people using youtube as the video content streaming provider.

i.e.  Khan Academy


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## Josh66 (Mar 18, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:
			
		

> I'm fascinated people on here are defending super walmart. I'm used to hearing all the long line complaints and such yet when I ask the same people if they shop elsewhere they reply they usually don't.



Not defending them, just saying that Target is no different.

I think Walmart is actually a pretty ****ty cpmpany that screws their own employees constantly...


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 18, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^^ yes sir,  couldn't agree more on both points


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## manaheim (Mar 18, 2012)

I'm a ninja.


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## Brandman (Mar 18, 2012)

WINDOWS USER = MAD BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME VIEW AS THEM WHEN TALKING COMPUTERS

MAC USER = AMUSED AT THE MAD LITTLE BOY WITH HIS CHEAP TOY

MACS RULE WINDOWS DRULES!!!

Lol


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Mar 18, 2012)

Brandman said:


> WINDOWS USER = MAD BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME VIEW AS THEM WHEN TALKING COMPUTERS
> 
> MAC USER = AMUSED AT THE MAD LITTLE BOY WITH HIS CHEAP TOY
> 
> ...



Hello troll. 

ALL CAPS + can't spell "drools" = You're not making a very good case for yourself. 

Let's try to ignore the blatant ignorance for a moment. Let's accept your premise that all PCs are "cheap toys" is ludicrous. I have 3 Samsung LED monitors in front of me with a Bose sound system and a more than substantial specs in the PC itself. And I'm pretty certain that my PC purchased 2 years ago would outclass your Mac (which I'm assuming you have, unless you're just a high level troll) in every way imaginable. Why? Because my PC outclasses pretty much every Mac available between $1,000-$3,000. And I didn't need to sell my liver to get into my setup. 

Oh yes and I'm a Windows user. 

Oh and remember, if this is a big brother, little brother thing to you-- Scoreboard:

http://www.netmarketshare.com/repor...display=1111&qpmr=10&site=news.cnet.com&qpf=0


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## o hey tyler (Mar 18, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> Brandman said:
> 
> 
> > WINDOWS USER = MAD BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME VIEW AS THEM WHEN TALKING COMPUTERS
> ...



Clearly he spelled "DRULES" that way on purpose. It stands for "DOUBLE RULES" which is correct when referring to how much better PC's are than Macs.


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## manaheim (Mar 18, 2012)

My PC outclasses every Mac imaginable... but my PC was like $18,000. 

(no, I didn't pay for it... I'm not sure if that makes it better, or worse.)


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## tirediron (Mar 18, 2012)

*I think we've wandered far enough off topic... *


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