# Phoenix Mosque Protest



## wayler (Jun 2, 2015)

A few days ago I went to the protest/counter protest at the mosque in Phoenix which received national attention. I had never shot anything at a large public event like this, so it was an interesting first experience and an introduction for me to exciting challenges of a new aspect of photography. I left out a few that contained signs/clothing that depicted some foul language as I wasn't sure if that was considered NSFW. Any comments are are welcome...


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## wayler (Jun 2, 2015)

a few more...


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## The_Traveler (Jun 3, 2015)

Some of these are quite good but they are not edited for most impact.
All of them are in landscape aspect; that often makes a lot of room that might not be needed.

Anytime you show pictures, it's like a play and should tell some coherent story with a way in and out.
Weed out the weak or redundant pictures, organize them so they make a point and fix
the tonal defects.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 3, 2015)




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## wayler (Jun 3, 2015)

Thank you very much, I really appreciate the comments and example! Like many, I started out a few years ago in photography doing nature/landscape stuff where you are often afforded a little more time to study your surroundings and set up the exact shot you want. One of the biggest challenges at the protest was the tight quarters to work with due to the hundreds of people around and the movement of those people constantly changing the surroundings. Some struggles I had in post cropping I think were due to a lack of experience in being able to see the elements that would make the photo more powerful as opposed to less, as well as some decisions in technique that I often employ in other settings that perhaps do not work well for this type. I often like to frame my subject within other elements of the photo and two examples of this that also represented difficulties for me in post cropping decisions were the last photo with the girl in the green shirt and about 7 photos before that, the bald bearded guy with the rifle. With the girl in the green shirt, she was speaking to the guy on the left with his back to the camera at the time of the shot and I framed her between him and the police officer to the right. However, this made her kind small in the larger photo and perhaps less impactfull??? In the other I tried to frame the outlaw look of the bald guy with elements of the police officers in the foreground, but same thing perhaps - he seems to get a little lost in all of the clutter of the photo. I would love to hear your opinions (as well as anyone else's!) on these two in particular if you wouldn't mind...


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## Designer (Jun 3, 2015)

I don't get what kind of protest this was.  I see signs about love and hate, but there is nothing to tell me who is protesting what.  Or why. Or anything else.


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## limr (Jun 3, 2015)

Designer said:


> I don't get what kind of protest this was.  I see signs about love and hate, but there is nothing to tell me who is protesting what.  Or why. Or anything else.



People came to protest the building of a mosque and then others (the ones with the "love your neighbor" signs) came out to counter-protest.

Hundreds gather in Arizona for armed anti-Muslim protest - The Washington Post


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## MOREGONE (Jun 3, 2015)

The_Traveler nailed it!

This event is disgusting. Tired of people thinking their religion is more important than others in a country that supposed to be Free and have a separation of church and state. Muslims get a very bad wrap in this day and age for actions of a few and these imbeciles are about to start walking down the same path as the radical Islamist and Christian crusaders...


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## snerd (Jun 3, 2015)

MOREGONE said:


> .................. This event is disgusting. Tired of people thinking their religion is more important than others in a country that supposed to be Free and have a separation of church and state. Muslims get a very bad wrap in this day and age for actions of a few and these imbeciles are about to start walking down the same path as the radical Islamist and Christian crusaders...


You don't get to rant about your political emotions here. Stay on the subject of the photographs. 

(BTW, from your mumblings above, you don't have a "clue" what the protest was about.)


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## MOREGONE (Jun 3, 2015)

snerd said:


> MOREGONE said:
> 
> 
> > .................. This event is disgusting. Tired of people thinking their religion is more important than others in a country that supposed to be Free and have a separation of church and state. Muslims get a very bad wrap in this day and age for actions of a few and these imbeciles are about to start walking down the same path as the radical Islamist and Christian crusaders...
> ...



You are incorrect. Take your own advice, stay on topic


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## The_Traveler (Jun 3, 2015)

wayler said:


> Thank you very much, I really appreciate the comments and example! Like many, I started out a few years ago in photography doing nature/landscape stuff where you are often afforded a little more time to study your surroundings and set up the exact shot you want. One of the biggest challenges at the protest was the tight quarters to work with due to the hundreds of people around and the movement of those people constantly changing the surroundings. Some struggles I had in post cropping I think were due to a lack of experience in being able to see the elements that would make the photo more powerful as opposed to less, as well as some decisions in technique that I often employ in other settings that perhaps do not work well for this type. I often like to frame my subject within other elements of the photo and two examples of this that also represented difficulties for me in post cropping decisions were the last photo with the girl in the green shirt and about 7 photos before that, the bald bearded guy with the rifle. With the girl in the green shirt, she was speaking to the guy on the left with his back to the camera at the time of the shot and I framed her between him and the police officer to the right. However, this made her kind small in the larger photo and perhaps less impactfull??? In the other I tried to frame the outlaw look of the bald guy with elements of the police officers in the foreground, but same thing perhaps - he seems to get a little lost in all of the clutter of the photo. I would love to hear your opinions (as well as anyone else's!) on these two in particular if you wouldn't mind...



Let me suggest that:

1) you choose and upload only the best; the ones you think make a story.
2) you upload actual pictures rather than thumbnails so the viewer can see the picture while commenting
3) that you number the pictures to make reference easier.

re: girl in the green shirt.

note the text fragments and the face on the outer edges that draw one's attention (at least mine).  I like text fragments that contribute to itnerest but here they draw my eye away from the important part in the center.





The colors don't add and I think her face and hand stand out more in a BW. 
Then my eyes are concentrated on her and the framing elements. 



 

The bald guy with a gun picture doesn't tell me anything.
He is submerged in a picture with lots of things that pull me eye. The gun is almost hidden and he's looking at his phone.
Yes, I can make up a story and center it around him but the picture has too many distracting incoherent elements for my taste.


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## wayler (Jun 3, 2015)

@Designer - you're right, there were a few other photos I could have posted that would have made things a little more clear what the protest was about, but they included some clothing and signs that might have violated TOS here. Can anyone clarify that for me? An example would be a photo where the subject was a sign that said "F*** ISIS, NOT ISLAM", would that be permissible here?


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## wayler (Jun 3, 2015)

@The_Traveler - Wow, thanks a lot! All great points and I really like your BW version. With the bald guy, I think it is a case of the result not lining up with what I wanted the photo to be at the time of taking and being willing to let go of those


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## waday (Jun 3, 2015)

It's good to see so many people supporting diversity.



MOREGONE said:


> these imbeciles are about to start walking down the same path as the radical Islamist and Christian crusaders...


They already are.. the news just doesn't report it.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 3, 2015)

wayler said:


> @The_Traveler - Wow, thanks a lot! All great points and I really like your BW version. With the bald guy, I think it is *a case of the result not lining up with what I wanted the photo to be at the time of taking *and being willing to let go of those



Yah, that doesn't happen to me more than 399 times out of 400 shots.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 4, 2015)

re: shooting street demonstrations

My attitude is that I should have some idea what typifies the interactions between the camps or between the demonstrators and the institution, then I look for specific situations that show that well and then do my best to pare away every thing that may be disturbing to the one specific idea (either in the composition or the post-processing.) 
I don't mean I am taking sides but that I am aware of the elements in each interaction.

I like my pictures to be very obvious about what I am showing (as opposed to others like Sashbar who are more about the mystery and the oddity/interest of composition, shape and color - that's a difference in style and intent, not making a value judgement)

If you look at these I like to think that what the photo is about is usually quite apparent - and that is my barometer of success as a picture. 

Street photography is very difficult in that you have to make all these decisions quickly to get a canvas to work on and then be draconian in sorting and showing.
If you show 15 pictures and 2 or 3 are good and the rest are _meh_, then the rest just sort of dilute the impact of the good ones. 
Be ruthless about discarding.

I hope to get one 'money shot' each outing. 

If I get more than one, I am ecstatic.


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## The_Traveler (Jun 4, 2015)

For example, with this shot below, I would have circled to the left to get his eyes straight on, hopefully with more flags in the background.
That would have minimized the effect of the backs of heads and gotten more impact of his eyes and introduce the mystery of, if he is so proud of his feelings and allegiances, why is he masked.

Meaning, mystery, mood - the three things that contribute


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 4, 2015)

Not bad, it takes a lot of practice. I've done sports and events and a lot of it's the timing.

I usually work my way thru a crowd, as people move around I can sometimes gradually squeeze my way thru or around. If I can't move anymore sometimes I scrunch or lean. Also can be a certain amount of waiting and watching as people move in and out of the scene and in and out of your viewfinder til you see a good shot.

These look like you could use practice in framing shots, just a slight adjustment might have made a difference with some (or making copies and trying some cropping might be an option). I think it takes getting so you see everything in your viewfinder that will be in your photo before you release the shutter.

With the guy with the guitar, I sometimes get a shot to have something at least usable. But then I'd wait til the guy is done with his water bottle and starts playing again to get more photos, watch for the guy in the background to put his hand down (he doesn't add to the picture as-is). The woman in the background doesn't need to be in the shot, mostly I see an arm in the sun, but if she turns and starts watching them play she might become part of the scene. If something or someone isn't part of the scene I keep them out of the frame, out of the viewfinder/viewscreen.

The guy in the blue shirt with the megaphone, adjust your vantage point (move your feet/yourself) if you can to get all of it in the picture and not the hand to the lower right. The guy in the green with a megaphone, looks like tight quarters and not sure if you could have done anything else but you don't want that black blob lower right, might just be one that didn't quite work.

The guy with the bandana, it could have been shot a couple of ways, get him and the guy to the left wearing a bandana both in the photo; flip the camera vertical and get the guy with the flag to his right (not just the edge, get more of it and not so much background).

The guy on the phone, well, he might be interesting if he gets off his phone, wait and see what he does or keep an eye out for him later and you might get a better shot of him. The one in B&W might have been better vertical (depends on what else is there), get another shot once that arm to the left moves out of your frame or adjust your vantage point, as-is I'd probably crop down the out of focus person to the right, his head's taking up too much space in the composition, it would work better I think framing the subject not overtaking the photo.

The guy next to the love your neighbor sign, again the timing, wait til the other guy lowers his arm. It's a lot of anticipating what might happen next. In the next one crop it so you don't have the guy in the black shirt looking at his phone in the frame.

Geez did everybody have a phone or a camera?? they're not exactly helping you any! lol The one of the two guys talking is nice but the guy with the camera is a big distraction, that's where you move and change your vantage point and get him behind the guy with the bandana or out of the frame. Same with the guys wearing camo walking, keep adjusting your vantage point and reframing. The guy wearing the USMC logo could work as foreground but would be better not cut off.

If you want to get practice you could go to events where attendees can bring cameras and take pictures. I usually go early, look at what's set up and what will be going on where, so I know where I'll want to be and what could make for some interesting pictures. The more you practice the more you can get something like this on the fly.


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 4, 2015)

I realize I got rather long winded there... a lot of pictures but that did make for a lot of examples to discuss (which can be good sometimes). I don't think for me the B&W is working because it was sunny and makes for a lot of contrast. Which in this case seems to accentuate all the distractions in the backgrounds. I'd consider some cropping and try to shoot tighter next time to get cleaner compositions.


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## wayler (Jun 4, 2015)

I went back last night and tried to reedit a little with the things mentioned here in mind, although prior to the 2 most recent posts by @The_Traveler. Tried going with all B&W to help minimize distractions and cropped down a bit. I also added a couple "censored" photos that were not included in the first set. Would love to hear more thoughts/critique...

1 Censored Shirt




2




3




4





5 Censored sign




6 



7




8





9 



10




11




12




13


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## wayler (Jun 4, 2015)

Thank you for the detailed response @vintagesnaps! I definitely realize in hindsight there were many times I would see a glimpse of a good moment to take a shot and take it right away and then move on, rather than waiting to see how the scene develops a little.

Haha - Yeah, there was no shortage of photos/videos being taken, was a challenge to try and minimize them in shots! #13 immediately above was one where I tried the best I could given the situation, but the guy with the camera was doing video and never moved until they finished talking. Maybe one of those times  that the situation just won't let the right shot happen or try and figure out a different shot all together with the scene. This is an unedited jpeg of the first shot I took where the camera guys head is really distracting, so I moved to the right a little to at least hide his head.


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## wayler (Jun 4, 2015)

The shot above is probably one of the more frustrating ones for me because it was one of the more unique moments in terms of a person from each "side" coming together and having a somewhat civil discussion, but that camera in the background definitely hurts things...


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 4, 2015)

Yeah that's a great shot of the interaction itself. I probably would have grabbed a shot then tried to move a few steps sideways and see if I could get an angle w/out the goomba with the camera in the picture. Might have taken going around to the other side and getting behind/to the side of the guy recording (hate that when somebody's camped out and not about to move! lol). Unfortunately even getting half a person who's that much in the way still can make for a distraction.

I think the more you get practice the faster you can think on your feet since you know what else might work. Too bad aliens didn't come along and beam him up but I find it does take a good bit of working around people sometimes.


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## wayler (Jun 4, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> re: shooting street demonstrations
> 
> My attitude is that I should have some idea what typifies the interactions between the camps or between the demonstrators and the institution, then I look for specific situations that show that well and then do my best to pare away every thing that may be disturbing to the one specific idea (either in the composition or the post-processing.)
> I don't mean I am taking sides but that I am aware of the elements in each interaction.



In this case I kind of went in blind, knowing a bit about the topic and who would be there, but not much thought into what the conditions of the situation would be like and what I would need to look for to get some good shots. I only found out about the protest a couple of hours before it started, so I look forward to using this experience to know a little more of what to expect next time.


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