# Video: Stopped for taking photos of white house



## prodigy2k7 (Nov 15, 2011)

Note: THIS IS NOT ME!!! But I would like to see some comments by the TPF guys on here about this video...
Basically a 25 year old male was stopped for taking suspicious photos of the police and the area. (white house in background?). They talk to him and write down info from his ID for nearly 15 minutes.

I guess my only comment is he should have said "Am I free to go?"

In the beginning the SS said they were going to detain him, but never did, just wanted to ask questions...






Sorry if this video has already been posted.


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## Snyder (Nov 16, 2011)

I think in guy holding the video camera handled that well, didn't back down or escalate the situation. He really shouldn't have been profiled and questioned for taking a photo but this is the world we live in.


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## Village Idiot (Nov 16, 2011)

He should have refused to give them his ID. This isn't Nazi Germany. We're not required to have our "papers" on us at all times.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Nov 16, 2011)

I felt close to getting tazed and arrested for taking a pic of a rest area building in FL  http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...yi-rest-areas-careful-what-you-take-pics.html


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## Forkie (Nov 16, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> He should have refused to give them his ID. This isn't Nazi Germany. We're not required to have our "papers" on us at all times.



Considering the OP mentions that the SS were going to detain him.  We might very well be!



prodigy2k7 said:


> ...In the beginning the SS said they were going to detain him, but never did, just wanted to ask questions...


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## molested_cow (Nov 16, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> He should have refused to give them his ID. This isn't Nazi Germany. We're not required to have our "papers" on us at all times.



ORLY?????

Ask Arizona state police about that!
I(everyone) was stopped on I-10 in New Mexico. They asked me if I am a US citizen.  I said no. He then told me to pull aside to "see my papers". Luckily I was actually leaving the country from another state and had everything in my car. All of this was happening while every other car with non-English speaking Mexicans were let through saying that they are US citizens.


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## MLeeK (Nov 16, 2011)

There are some things it is illegal to photograph and those have increased since 9/11. Reasoning is obvious. However... if some terrorist organization wants the photographs of the ss and the whitehouse goings and doings? This sure as hell isn't going to prevent them from taking them. All it does is harass the law abiding citizens. Considering terrorism is about as far from law abiding as you can get... just what do they think they are stopping????


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## Village Idiot (Nov 16, 2011)

molested_cow said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > He should have refused to give them his ID. This isn't Nazi Germany. We're not required to have our "papers" on us at all times.
> ...



Different situation. You have to have a valid driver's license when driving or you're breaking the law. If you're walking down the street and get stopped, a cop can't require you to show ID. He can ask you for your name and if you lie, you can get in trouble for that, but you're not required to carry an ID. I know when I go mountain biking, running, or whatever, I'm not alway with my wallet. Not everyone carries an ID everywhere with them.


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## o hey tyler (Nov 16, 2011)

NWA said it best: "**** the police"


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## bogeyguy (Nov 16, 2011)

IMO this person was there to bait the SS officers. They showed great restriant in not hauling his butt in for further questioning. Me, I would have tazered his smartass and hauled him in.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

secret service were allot more polite then i would have thought they would be. 

the guy had apparently been talked to before and was back doing the same thing. i almost got the impression that the reason the guy was there was to get into it with the secret service. like when he said he was calling the police id expect him to call the pricinct or something, but instead he calls his friend whom i'm assuming is a cop.  just left me with the impression that he went there with the sole pourpose of causing it.


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## unpopular (Nov 16, 2011)

This guy is just looking for a fight. The police don't need any kind of excuse to question someone, just like how I don't need an excuse to talk to someone. A "hows it going" would have sufficed followed up with a "am I free to go" if they're getting a bit too nosy - and then STFU. There is no reason to set things off on teh wrong foot.

I tend to think of the police as anyone else until I'm detained. I wouldn't let some random guy touch me, I wouldn't let some random person look through my stuff. But I would tell a random person if I'm a tourist.


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## molested_cow (Nov 16, 2011)

I wasn't talking about driver's license. I was talking about passport, visa papers etc. It's ridiculous to ask a foreigner, living or working in the country, to carry around such important documents all the time. BTW the "visa" isn't a convenient piece of card. It's literally letter sized papers, many pieces of them. These documents belong to the safe, not your wallet.


How would you feel if you are required to have your car title deed with you ALL the time while you are driving the car?

In my previous job, I interact with different law enforcement agencies and study the way they do their jobs. While some stay on the job because they understand its true value, most are there because of the pay check, or because they get to kick asses legally. Put it this way, 99% of the time, they have a reeeaaallllyyy boring job. Sometimes, if excitement doesn't come to them, they create some for themselves.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Nov 16, 2011)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/junk1/cop1.jpg


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## jwbryson1 (Nov 16, 2011)

I agree with the comments above.  I watched the video and from the beginning was ready to take sides with the photographers, but about halfway though I found myself thinking that the guy was smarmy and kind of an ass, and ultimately sided with the cops.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

LOL at all the 'SS' remarks.  The guy very obviously is there to cause trouble.  It almost seemed like he started to get annoyed that the officers didn't escalate things more.  He clearly has a really poor understanding of his rights and what it means to be arrested and what it means to be questioned.  What it seems like very clearly he was hoping to get the officers in trouble the entire time.  The officers seemed to be like 'jesus, just give us the answers we want and we'll just let you go, quit trying to bait us.'  

Also, the title was highly misleading, he was stopped because he was taking pictures detailing the security routines of the officers.  Not for taking photos of the White House.  

He also has no idea what the Supreme Court has said, lol.  He just keeps saying "you know what the supreme court says" but never actually gives anything.  

Also, lol at when he starts getting questions that indicate that he regularly tries to do this, he tries to change the subject for his camera.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

This is totally the photographers fault, what an @sshole.  It's your ID, come on what an idiot.  If some stranger walking down the street said can I see your ID I'd probably say sure, who the hell cares?    They should arrest this guy just for being a punk.  If you try and show someone in a position of power that you know more than them then you deserve what is coming.  I always am 100% honest with police, customs whatever.  I have been let off from DUI, and illegal contraband I guess because I was honest with whoever was asking questions.  I have brought Cuban cigars into the country and because I told the people when they asked the truth they didn't even take them away.  I got pulled over once going 120mph and when they cop asked if I had been drinking I said yes and probably too much because it was pretty stupid going that fast and I just got a speeding ticket.  There's no reason to find 20 ways to avoid answering a question when 1 way, answering correctly, would work so much faster.  This guy doesn't value his time at all, he'd spend 24 hours in jail to prove a stupid point.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

What a complete waste of our taxpayer $$. Those guys have nothing to do, so they all hang around this "crime scene" and take notes like they are in a training class or something. They make me sick. I don't feel it's right to have to provide them a license so they can run it, and keep it on record and do whatever gestapo tactics the letter of the law will allow them to. Not if I'm doing nothing wrong. 
All those questions they were asking him, I've been asked before by power hungry idiots just like them. They must have some comic book they all read to come up with the same retarded questions. 
So in the end, the only thing that was accomplished is that they harrassed the hell out of a citizen, got him to stop taking pictures ( would have been awesome if he stayed right there and continued to shoot ), and are going to waste some more time sending agents to his house to harass him some more.

It's a crying shame and I am disgusted with it !


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

usually cops ask you questions like that to see your responce. to see if you get nervous. or hiding something etc. there more or less looking for yoru reaction not your responce. these guys were pretty tame and just doing there job. they were no where near power hungry. they didn't get out of line with the guy. they were always polite thru the entire thing.


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## jwbryson1 (Nov 16, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> I have been let off from DUI, and illegal contraband I guess because I was honest with whoever was asking questions.  I got pulled over once going 120mph and when they cop asked if I had been drinking I said yes and probably too much because it was pretty stupid going that fast and I just got a speeding ticket.




Sorry dude, this is not bragging rights.  Please don't drink and drive, especially 120mph.  I'd like to live and my family to live a few more years.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> usually cops ask you questions like that to see your responce. to see if you get nervous. or hiding something etc. there more or less looking for yoru reaction not your responce. these guys were pretty tame and just doing there job. they were no where near power hungry. they didn't get out of line with the guy. they were always polite thru the entire thing.



Except for one thing. they were harassing him. Please tell me that you don't think they really thought he was a terrorist. They knew darn well that he was doing nothing wrong, and at most they knew he was baiting them. Is it really that easy to bait Secret Service ? Are they so gullible ?  Nah, they are bored and have procedures designed to not give a rats behind about the bill of rights.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > usually cops ask you questions like that to see your responce. to see if you get nervous. or hiding something etc. there more or less looking for yoru reaction not your responce. these guys were pretty tame and just doing there job. they were no where near power hungry. they didn't get out of line with the guy. they were always polite thru the entire thing.
> ...



Except the guy has been warned several times to stop taking pictures of the security measures if he doesn't want to be asked questions about it.  Sure, he has a right to take those pictures, but the police do have a right to ask questions about that sort of activity.  The guy wasn't just taking pictures of the whitehouse lawn, he was taking pictures of the officers communicating with one another (as he admitted a few times on the video).  Documenting how the security force works is one of the most questionable things you can do.  Now, yes, they probably knew this kid was just causing trouble, but if they don't stop him, then they can't stop someone who does look like they are perhaps actually doing recon on the security without resorting to profiling.  

People don't want profiling, but then when a white kid gets busted for doing something that could be sold to terrorists, we're also up in arms about that, because he 'obviously wasn't a terrorist'.  We can't have it both ways.  

I have friends that live in DC and take plenty of pictures of the whitehouse.  This doesn't happen to any of them.  This has happened to this kid several times.  He's been questioned by agents multiple times (which they found out by running his info).  He has some sort of vendetta against the secret service and is hoping he can bait them into doing something questionable.  This was the best he could get.

edit: also notice that he was completely ready for the situation, he orchestrated it, did something that he knew would get the secret service to react this way and was waiting with a video camera.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > usually cops ask you questions like that to see your responce. to see if you get nervous. or hiding something etc. there more or less looking for yoru reaction not your responce. these guys were pretty tame and just doing there job. they were no where near power hungry. they didn't get out of line with the guy. they were always polite thru the entire thing.
> ...



who am i to judge wether someone is a terrorist? if i saw timothy mc veigh walking down the street at the time i problaby wouldn't have thought he was a terrroist but look what he did. or are you trying to say that you can point out any terrorist walking down the street?  he was taking pictures of security so they wanted to ask him a few questions.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> shootermcgavin said:
> 
> 
> > I have been let off from DUI, and illegal contraband I guess because I was honest with whoever was asking questions.  I got pulled over once going 120mph and when they cop asked if I had been drinking I said yes and probably too much because it was pretty stupid going that fast and I just got a speeding ticket.
> ...



Not bragging and it was years ago when I was young and stupid.  I definitely don't drink and drive anymore, it's one of the stupidest things you can do and for something so easily avoidable it could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars from losing a great job opportunity.  I'm very against it and just mentioned it to prove a point, unfortunately some people don't learn at a young age.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> fwellers said:
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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> fwellers said:
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> > 12sndsgood said:
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What you say makes sense. I would buy it better though if I weren't stopped and treated the exact same way for something similar. And I wasn't baiting.  They really need to chill out about the photography.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> fwellers said:
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Well then, I guess you just made your case for a police state to make us all safe from each other. Bravo


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> What you say makes sense. I would buy it better though if I weren't stopped and treated the exact same way for something similar. And I wasn't baiting.  They really need to chill out about the photography.



I'm not saying there aren't very questionable things that the secret service does.  I'm sure that some agents do some crappy things.  It just didn't happen here.  And throughout the course of the video the kid admits: 1) That he was specifically photographing the secret service and 2) That he's been stopped for this same reason multiple times.  

He keeps threatening lawsuits, and honestly it almost seems like he was hoping that they would do something that he could bring about a civil suit for.  I'd almost guess his friend was an attorney and not an actual police officer (I don't know any police officers that would do something like talk to a friend on the phone while he tries to bait other police officers into getting in trouble)


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> fwellers said:
> 
> 
> > What you say makes sense. I would buy it better though if I weren't stopped and treated the exact same way for something similar. And I wasn't baiting.  They really need to chill out about the photography.
> ...



Yea in my bias against what a lot of cops do, I failed to realize that the kid was baiting them pretty hard. However wrong was done on both sides. Listening to those cops asking if they could talk to the other party on the telephone and some of the other stupid questions they were asking him, made me think that they are just winging this and looking for a way to nail him or something. He was baiting them and in a real sense they were baiting him too, which is what a lot of law enforcement does.


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## dots (Nov 16, 2011)

jwbryson1 said:


> Aren't they always. As well young, white, male with nothing better to do than piss and moan about 'rights'. Maybe he could find something worthwhile to do with his camera/life. He could go down S.America and confront police in the same way - enquire of them where all the street kids disappeared to, one night; before the VIPs came to visit.
> 
> Clownshoe.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> Yea in my bias against what a lot of cops do, I failed to realize that the kid was baiting them pretty hard. However wrong was done on both sides. Listening to those cops asking if they could talk to the other party on the telephone and some of the other stupid questions they were asking him, made me think that they are just winging this and looking for a way to nail him or something. He was baiting them and in a real sense they were baiting him too, which is what a lot of law enforcement does.



I think the asking to talk to the other police officer over the phone was because the secret service suspected that the kid was lying and that the guy on the other end wasn't a police officer.  Which would then be misrepresenting a police officer, which is a crime.  Just like you can't impersonate a police officer, a third person cannot mispresent someone else as being a police officer, even if the person being called a police officer made no claims as such.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

I don't think this is an issue of legality.  It's an issue of common courtesy.  They are trying to protect us and do their job, they aren't asking the guy to strip down to nothing, they are asking for an ID.  These guys aren't millionaires working dream jobs, I would be pissed just having to wear what they are in public.  Isn't that enough punishment, give em a break.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

dots said:


> jwbryson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't they always. As well young, white, male with nothing better to do than piss and moan about 'rights'. Maybe he could find something worthwhile to do with his camera/life. He could go down S.America and confront police in the same way - enquire of them where all the street kids disappeared to, one night; before the VIPs came to visit.
> ...


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## skieur (Nov 16, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> molested_cow said:
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> > Village Idiot said:
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You are not required to provide any information to the police whatsoever, unless you are driving a car and then it is license, insurance and ownership.  In that video, he should NOT have been submitting to any profile.

skieur


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## tirediron (Nov 16, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> ... These guys aren't millionaires working dream jobs, I would be pissed just having to wear what they are in public. Isn't that enough punishment, give em a break.


To which the only appropriate response is, "They applied (and if I had to guess, against stiff competition) for those jobs.  If they decide they don't like what they are doing, then find another job.  Dealing with idiots is part of that job, and if they can't do it in an appropriate way (not saying they did or didn't), they should be fired.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police?  To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal.  There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.


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## tirediron (Nov 16, 2011)

skieur said:


> ...You are not required to provide any information to the police whatsoever, unless you are driving a car and then it is license, insurance and ownership. In that video, he should NOT have been submitting to any profile...


I suspect you may want to research that a little farther. I certainly can't speak for identity requirements in the US, but in Canada, while AFAIK, there is no law that says you have to carry your "papers", you do *have to be able to prove your identity* when demanded by someone (RCMP, etc) with the authority and reason to do so.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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no, i just answered you question.   reality is these guys sit there and there job is to catch the loons. the guys that jump over the fence trying to get in. the guys that shoot at the white house (just saw that they picked up a guy here today or yesterday that shot at a window) and these people that do this don't nessicarily fit the "terrorist" profile. ive seen police harrass people. ive seen cops on power trips. this was neither of those.  you said that the secret service knew he wasn't a terrorist.  again. how did they know that?  they went over, asked the guys some questions. put up with his poor attitude and he was free to go. sorry but that is not harrasment.



sorry looks like they have not caught the guy yet but they know who he is and are hunting for him.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

tirediron said:


> skieur said:
> 
> 
> > ...You are not required to provide any information to the police whatsoever, unless you are driving a car and then it is license, insurance and ownership. In that video, he should NOT have been submitting to any profile...
> ...





did any officer in the video say he HAD to show his id?  they asked for it i believe and he gave it to them.  nothing wrong with that.  i dont remember if they demanded it or said he absolutly had to. so again. nothing wrong in my eyes.


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## tirediron (Nov 16, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> tirediron said:
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I wasn't referring to the video, rather responding to skieur's statement regarding the necessity to have/provide ID.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

okay, gotcha.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

tirediron said:


> skieur said:
> 
> 
> > ...You are not required to provide any information to the police whatsoever, unless you are driving a car and then it is license, insurance and ownership. In that video, he should NOT have been submitting to any profile...
> ...



You do have to be able to state your identity, if the police officer has reasonable suspicion.  You do not have to be able to prove your identity, with documentation (unless you were operating a vehicle, or using airline transportation).  You can then be arrested for not identifying yourself verbally, provided that the police officer's reasonable suspicion holds up.  It's kind of a tricky area, since you can never be sure if the police officer does have reasonable suspicion, and if you turn out to be wrong about it, and they arrest you, then you're screwed.  

The kid's 'mistake' was providing his license, but I suspect the kid also knew that if he just walked away, he wouldn't get the secret service blowing up at him, which is probably what he wanted.  Once he provided his license, they have the right to do a search on it in federal jurisdictions (which DC is).   If he had asked them if he was free to go prior to giving them his license, they would be forced to say yes or no, if they said yes, he was free to go, he could just walk away, which isn't what I think the kid wanted.  If the secret service had said no, he wasn't free to leave, then they'd have to be able to prove reasonable suspicion later on, which they probably didn't want to do.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

I again think there's too much law talk, this isn't so much a law issue.  They are not saying the guy has to have ID, I didn't watch the whole video cuz the guy pissed me off just listening to him, but I'm pretty sure never once did he say I'm sorry I have no ID with me could I just give you my name and date of birth or something to that affect.  K I got another story that fits this also, when I was 18 I was driving through a bad area at like 1-2am and got pulled over for my license plate light being out.  I didn't have my ID on me and the cop saw my backpack and said is there anything in your backpack with your name on it, I was like probably lets look.  In his head he was probably thinking drug bust, but in my head I was thinking I'm not a criminal so he can do whatever he wants I just want to get on my way, thinking otherwise to me is a sign of guilt.  Is this the world you want to live in alqeadadating.com  ?


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police?  To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal.  There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.



This isn't like the good old days anymore. When anybody asks for my ID, I want to know why they want it and what they are going to do with the INFORMATION. Remember, my license is INFORMATION.  Why should I have to provide it to the police ? What gives them the authority to "run" me and potentially put my name on some hit list, just because they percieve I am acting suspiciously ?
Sorry, I just happen to disagree with the status quo there. I don't feel I should provide my personal information to anyone unless it is MY  choice or unless I am breaking the law.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> shootermcgavin said:
> 
> 
> > There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police?  To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal.  There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.
> ...



well, regardless of what you think, you don't have to be actually breaking the law, just pass reasonable suspicion for them to require you to give your personal information.  You can't be required to give your license or other 'papers' though, unless you're operating a vehicle, or flying.  However, if you mislead the police about your identity, or refuse to identify yourself, and their reasonable suspicion holds up, then you can be arrested.  You may disagree with that, but that's what the law is.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> shootermcgavin said:
> 
> 
> > There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police?  To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal.  There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.
> ...



I guess personally I don't care what list I'm on.  As long as they aren't doing deep cavity searches of me at the airport I'm good to go.  Also it seems like the people that want to stay off these lists travel the least which makes even less sense to me.  The only list I can think of is the travel terrorist watch type list, but maybe there's others I don't know about.  I also have no information on my license that I haven't shared with millions of people in my life, information I would worry about letting out would be like the cure for cancer, or a car that drives on water.  I don't really view my license as valuable information.  But I do realize many people worry about theft and other things.  Is it worth trying to avoid giving your ID to prove a point? Maybe to some it is, but I don't think that would put you in the pillars of society list.  I'm huge anti-government pro freedom, I would over throw it in a second if I saw the ability to, but as it stands there is no advantage to me for giving someone a hard time for doing their job.


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## bogeyguy (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> dots said:
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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

Ha ha I wish I could double like that.  I didn't get to that part of the video, that's hilarious.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

bogeyguy said:


> Oh please spare the pity for this a$$hole. He lied to the officer when he told him he did not have a phone number then proceeds to call his "police" buddy on his cell phone. That would have done it right there. Turn around and put your hands behind your back. No?? Zap, down he goes.



lying to a police officer for the purposes of identification isn't a crime unless he has reasonable suspicion.  I don't think they had reasonable suspicion here.


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## bogeyguy (Nov 16, 2011)

And I did not make this up. 
Suspect in White House shooting incident  arrested
21-year-old nabbed at hotel near Indiana,  Pa.


Read more: Suspect in White House shooting incident arrested


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## Everglades1 (Nov 16, 2011)

Its sad 9/11 had to change everything and how we live and operate on a daily basis.


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## fjrabon (Nov 16, 2011)

Everglades1 said:


> Its sad 9/11 had to change everything and how we live and operate on a daily basis.



LOL, not taking pictures of the secret service changed how you live and operate on a daily basis?


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## Everglades1 (Nov 16, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> Everglades1 said:
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> > Its sad 9/11 had to change everything and how we live and operate on a daily basis.
> ...



Lets face it Law Enforcement in general prior to 9/11 didn't much care as to who takes a pic of them or specific buildings or not but since then and all the Intel going around "officers" get a lil ramped up at times. Especially at the Federal level; but it stems from the top. And "things" that are put out on a daily basis at roll call; well hate to say it but unless you remember your roots and where you came from and don't use sound judgement and tact remember right from wrong -Yes hate to say it you become brainwashed after a while into "stopping" anyone and anything pointing a camera any which way....lol


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

Yeah I haven't noticed much of a change either, I fly once or twice a month and although I do not like taking my shoes off it doesn't bother me that much.  I should be on a list cuz of things I've said at the airport, one time my backpack was being searched and my phone in it started to ring so i grabbed my back pack and answered my phone, well TSA didn't like that and told me I can't do that while they're searching.  My not so smart response was well if that was a bomb about to go off I would've just saved your life, he said I should probably avoid from using the word bomb while in the airport which is probably pretty good advice.  Anyone with any knowledge of weapons and engineering knows that no matter what they do you could still get by security with a weapon but even though it is more for the feeling of safety than actual safety itself I still say just use honey instead of vinegar when dealing with authority figures.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

Many people have their ssn on their license. I don't anymore, but still. It's my personal info and it's mine. In the business I am in, ( IT ) there is a huge amount of money being spent to protect Personal Info. too easy for nasty hackers to steal your identity, your home etc... Giving my personal info to a cop is something I shouldn't have to do unless ....
You say you are pro freedom and anti govt, but you should realize that every time we allow the govt to step into our privacy another inch, we lose personal freedom that we never regain.  Having to show my 'papers' for taking pictures is one such step that repulses  me.
Most of these cops are freekin children. Wet behind the ears, don't know jack squat about anything and they get to be the judge as to whether I am suspicious enough looking to warrant "the interview" ? Efff em.





shootermcgavin said:


> fwellers said:
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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> shootermcgavin said:
> 
> 
> > There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police?  To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal.  There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.
> ...



you are right. this isnt the good ole days, in the good ole days the guy would have just handed the guys his liscence. answer the simple questions and went about his way. or if a guy acted like this the cop would of pulled out his billy club. cracked the guy over the head and then asked him if he'd like to answer the question now lol.

this is the secret service, i think if there going to put your name on a hit list they could get every bit of info on you without asking for your license.


if im the secret service and im making a list for potential threats. i dont put the guys name on the list who was polite, showed me his idea and went about his way.  i put the guys name on the list who argues with me, doesnt want to tell me who he is, and refuses to answer a few simple questions.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> Everglades1 said:
> 
> 
> > Its sad 9/11 had to change everything and how we live and operate on a daily basis.
> ...



comeon, it's not just that. Yea that may be this thread, but it's all over the place. People get harrassed by cops, feds and security personel for taking pictures of anything related to infrastucture. I watched one a week or two ago about the California cop threatening to put a guy on a terror watch list, telling the guy he could be selling pictures to Al Qeda, and all this. I think he was taking pics of a bridge or a treatment plant or some such thing. 

I concede now that if the guy in this particular video was hanging around for a long time, taking repeated pictures of the same feds, he was crossing a line, although I still say that line is very very thin.   It really shouldn't matter to them. They are out there in the public carrying on, anybody can see what they are doing, anybody can stand there for as long as they want etc...  If the govt depends on the actions of those cops out there in public being a secret in order to stop the whitehouse from being attacked, then we are in deep you know what.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> fwellers said:
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I am very glad that you aren't in any authority.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> Many people have their ssn on their license. I don't anymore, but still. It's my personal info and it's mine. In the business I am in, ( IT ) there is a huge amount of money being spent to protect Personal Info. too easy for nasty hackers to steal your identity, your home etc... Giving my personal info to a cop is something I shouldn't have to do unless ....
> You say you are pro freedom and anti govt, but you should realize that every time we allow the govt to step into our privacy another inch, we lose personal freedom that we never regain.  Having to show my 'papers' for taking pictures is one such step that repulses  me.
> Most of these cops are freekin children. Wet behind the ears, don't know jack squat about anything and they get to be the judge as to whether I am suspicious enough looking to warrant "the interview" ? Efff em.


[/QUOTE]

Certainly if your SSN is on there, which I can't believe any state would do that, there would  be more reason not to show it.  I've had my stuff stolen off the internet, and honestly it doesn't bother me.  I make a couple phone calls, charges get reversed, life is back to normal the next day.  I totally agree that freedoms are being lost slowly but surely, but the people in this video aren't deciding that, police don't decide that.  So I say go with the flow until someday there might be a way to change the flow, probably not in our lifetimes though.  Consider yourself lucky as an American you can pretty much pick anywhere in the world you want to live.


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## unpopular (Nov 16, 2011)

When shooting remotely sensitive subjects, you kind of need to go out with a plan. Know ahead of time what your rights are, and then have some idea of what you're willing to say and do. You need to know when the line is being drawn and your personal privacy is being trampled.

But, you don't have a right to privacy when you're out there. Anyone, including the police, have a right to ask you questions - and you have a right to not answer them. But unlike ordinary folks, if you insist on replying to every single question with "that's none of your business" the police will only bother you more.

I think the line is drawn when a police officer wants to look at your photographs, search your belongings or your person, enter your home or vehicle, asking very personal questions about your ethnicity, financial (including SSN) or family life or accuses you of activities which are are false. You need to know where the battle is being drawn, and just because a police officer asks you a few questions doesn't mean that we're entering a police state. 

However, I do think it's rather humorous the idea if you're on this big Al Queda-funded incognito mission, you'd haul out a DSLR ... great way to blend in with the tourists. You never see cops harassing someone with a P&S.

I'm pretty sure I'm on a government watch list just because I'm an outspoken anarchist. If I am, it's really not all that exciting.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 16, 2011)

unpopular said:


> When shooting remotely sensitive subjects, you kind of need to go out with a plan. Know ahead of time what your rights are, and then have some idea of what you're willing to say and do. You need to know when the line is being drawn and your personal privacy is being trampled.
> 
> But, you don't have a right to privacy when you're out there. Anyone, including the police, have a right to ask you questions - and you have a right to not answer them. But unlike ordinary folks, if you insist on replying to every single question with "that's none of your business" the police will only bother you more.
> 
> ...



We're on the same list, I agree not all that exciting.  I do think there is a line, certainly ethnicity is crossing the line, ssn or accusations probably also cross line.  Looking at photographs, eh they're just trying to maintain order.  I think if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't really care what they do.  I know when I come back from another country they may ask to look at the pictures on my camera.  I also know the main reason they ask is to catch someone with child pornography, I would personally rather them ask too many people than too little.  Plus who doesn't like to talk about photos they've taken?  Imagine this guy who held up these officers for way more time than was needed caused them to miss a true terrorist, and because of that your family was killed by this terrorist.  Is it really worth it?  If standing up for your freedoms can cause others to lose theirs I don't see that as a big positive.


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## fwellers (Nov 16, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> fwellers said:
> 
> 
> > Many people have their ssn on their license. I don't anymore, but still. It's my personal info and it's mine. In the business I am in, ( IT ) there is a huge amount of money being spent to protect Personal Info. too easy for nasty hackers to steal your identity, your home etc... Giving my personal info to a cop is something I shouldn't have to do unless ....
> ...



Certainly if your SSN is on there, which I can't believe any state would do that, there would  be more reason not to show it.  I've had my stuff stolen off the internet, and honestly it doesn't bother me.  I make a couple phone calls, charges get reversed, life is back to normal the next day.  I totally agree that freedoms are being lost slowly but surely, but the people in this video aren't deciding that, police don't decide that.  So I say go with the flow until someday there might be a way to change the flow, probably not in our lifetimes though.  Consider yourself lucky as an American you can pretty much pick anywhere in the world you want to live.[/QUOTE]

YOur just an upbeat kind of guy. ))
Yea VA has always put the ssn on the license. A while back they allowed  you to opt out if you wanted and get a regular license number. Not sure  what they are doing now as it's been a long time since I've had to get a  new license.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 16, 2011)

fwellers said:


> fjrabon said:
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> 
> > Everglades1 said:
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and ive read stories about catholic priests who molested boys.  or people who have photographed naked kids in sexual situations. does this mean i should believe that every priest and every photographer is a pedophile?  not, it simply means that in every walk of life you have a few people who are bad.   to sit there and say  "Most of these cops are freekin children. Wet behind the ears, don't know jack squat about anything and they get to be the judge as to whether I am suspicious enough looking to warrant "the interview" ? Efff em."  shows that you just feel cops are wrong no matter the situation. you make it look like u beleive by that very statement that you are almost above the law and how dare they ask you questions.


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## skieur (Nov 17, 2011)

tirediron said:


> skieur said:
> 
> 
> > ...You are not required to provide any information to the police whatsoever, unless you are driving a car and then it is license, insurance and ownership. In that video, he should NOT have been submitting to any profile...
> ...



I don't think so. If you had to prove your identity, then it would be necessary to carry ID, which is not the case, in Canada or US. I was stopped for a driving infraction when I was not carrying ID or a license. No charges, no necessity to prove my identity, and for that matter no harassment.  I was just given a ticket based on my car license.


skieur


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## skieur (Nov 17, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> There must be more criminals in this forum than I originally thought, what would make someone paranoid about providing information to the police? To me right there I would be alarmed that the person was a criminal. There are certainly police that do bad things, but asking for an ID is not one of those things.



In the video, it was more than just ID.  How many photographers would like to have any information at all about them in a police database, if they want to travel without harassment???  Photographers have successfully sued the police for false arrest and got court orders to take any info. about them out of police databases.

skieur


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## skieur (Nov 17, 2011)

fjrabon said:


> fwellers said:
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Reasonable suspicion would not hold up against a photographer.  As a matter of fact, some judges have castigated the police for what amounts to false arrest and successful false arrest suits by photographers have become common in some areas.

skieur


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## skieur (Nov 17, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> fwellers said:
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He may not be above the law but he does NOT have to answer questions, according to the law.

skieur


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## JAC526 (Nov 17, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> This is totally the photographers fault, what an @sshole.  It's your ID, come on what an idiot.  If some stranger walking down the street said can I see your ID I'd probably say sure, who the hell cares?    They should arrest this guy just for being a punk.  If you try and show someone in a position of power that you know more than them then you deserve what is coming.  I always am 100% honest with police, customs whatever.  I have been let off from DUI, and illegal contraband I guess because I was honest with whoever was asking questions.  I have brought Cuban cigars into the country and because I told the people when they asked the truth they didn't even take them away.  I got pulled over once going 120mph and when they cop asked if I had been drinking I said yes and probably too much because it was pretty stupid going that fast and I just got a speeding ticket.  There's no reason to find 20 ways to avoid answering a question when 1 way, answering correctly, would work so much faster.  This guy doesn't value his time at all, he'd spend 24 hours in jail to prove a stupid point.



That is stuff you should be keeping to yourself.  Just embarrassing.  You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## JAC526 (Nov 17, 2011)

I thought the photographer handled it well.  The first thing you need to understand is the police are not on your side in that situation.

They will try to ferret out anything they can.  The more you talk the better chance you have of being arrested.  I wouldn't have been calling a cop buddy, I'd have been calling an attorney.

Whose first piece of advice would be to not say a damn word.


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## unpopular (Nov 18, 2011)

For a guy like this who clearly does not understand his rights and just can't keep it cool, then yeah, don't say a word is your best route. But arguing with the cops is NEVER handling the situation. The cops know that you're more likely to say something incriminating or do something impulsive if you are worked up. They are very good at pissing people off without being aggressive or unprofessional. Getting you worked up is exactly what they want you to do.

If I were in this circumstance here is how it would go. Once I see the police approaching, I'd try to take a dominant, confident stance but try to remain as non-threatening as possible, I'd stand tall, place my camera at my side - and as he had, continue rerecording take a breath and smile, try to get myself in a positive mood and ask a simple "How's it going?"

The officer would approach me, he would ask what I am video taping. I'd explain I am video taping the white house. He'd then go on to ask if I am a tourist. I'd say yes, and make some kind of statement like "first time in DC". None of this information is sensitive or particularly personal.

The officer would ask to see my ID, at which point I would provide it just because I am pretty sure there is certain information you must provide, and this smooths that transaction. I don't much care for this, but it's something I'm willing to do; however, this is also why I never EVER go out shooting with my wallet. Oh, and DO NOT EVER lie about not having your wallet. I tried this once, only to get a "providing false information to a federal police officer" charge, which was fortunately dropped. If you don't have you wallet or don't want to "provide papers" you still must provide your legal name and address. You could lie if you're REALLY opposed to this, but the way I figure it is that they'll eventually figure it out, anyway; leave this kind of shenanigans for your protest activities, it makes for good theater but probably will land you in more trouble. It is fun to tell the police that you're name is Peter Kropotkin or Emma Goldman, just to see if they catch on. I once had an acquaintance who was called "Butterfly", they hauled her in thinking she was acting suspicious by giving the cops a fake name, only to find that was, in fact, her name.

"Yeah, officer, my name's Abbie, and this here is Anita".

But no. You kind of have to provide identity, and not providing identity I think is grounds for detainment. But i don't think you have to provide proof of identity, but they'll know if you're lying, and at that point you're kind of screwed. You do not have to provide your SSN because it is not legally an identity, it says so on your SSN card. If the cop really pushes for your SSN just say "I forgot it" (wink). They'll know this is BS, but what can they do? At this point say nothing until they give up. Honestly, the only time I was asked for my SSN was when I was homeless, and they thought they could get away with it.

If the officer asks to see my video tape or look into my bag, I'd say "no, it is my policy that any government search will require a warrant" and then go on to explain that it's nothing personal or specific about this situation, it's just "my policy". This emphasizes that it's a matter of principle. At that point I'd answer one additional non-invasive question, things that are both factual and I wouldn't mind exposing to just anyone, and ask if I can go. If the police officer says "no" then ask if you are being detained, the officer will always say "yes" at that point. I would then tell the police officer "I will no longer answer any further questions until an attorney is present". The police will continue to try to extract information out of you, and they will try to do it by making you angry or playing "good cop/bad cop"

At this point I try to think about something entirely unrelated. Eventually the police will let you go, but more likely they will formally detain you first, haul you downtown, get a warrant to search your belongings - and then let you go. But in the mean time you have to go into a "zone" because they are VERY good at making you mad.

The next step would be civil court, which you likely won't even see - even if you can obtain an attorney. It is a good idea to learn how to file yourself in case you cannot, in the least you'll cost the municipality money to sift through civil complaints.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 18, 2011)

skieur said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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your right, by the law he doesnt. but id bet money if he had just answered the simple questions he probably would have been sent on his way in half the time.  

i mean if i acted the way he did i would expect to be kept there for a while. for him to argue about how long it was taking was just silly.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 18, 2011)

JAC526 said:


> shootermcgavin said:
> 
> 
> > This is totally the photographers fault, what an @sshole.  It's your ID, come on what an idiot.  If some stranger walking down the street said can I see your ID I'd probably say sure, who the hell cares?    They should arrest this guy just for being a punk.  If you try and show someone in a position of power that you know more than them then you deserve what is coming.  I always am 100% honest with police, customs whatever.  I have been let off from DUI, and illegal contraband I guess because I was honest with whoever was asking questions.  I have brought Cuban cigars into the country and because I told the people when they asked the truth they didn't even take them away.  I got pulled over once going 120mph and when they cop asked if I had been drinking I said yes and probably too much because it was pretty stupid going that fast and I just got a speeding ticket.  There's no reason to find 20 ways to avoid answering a question when 1 way, answering correctly, would work so much faster.  This guy doesn't value his time at all, he'd spend 24 hours in jail to prove a stupid point.
> ...



Whatever man, 20 years ago it was normal.  Everyone drives drunk at some point in their life, some grow up sooner and learn not to.  I'm not embarrassed at all just like when I take a bad photo it's not embarrassing it's called a learning experience.  You sound like an old maid.


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## skieur (Nov 18, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> skieur said:
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It is not a matter of answering simple questions, but rather a matter of whether the simple questions end up in a police computer base of SUSPICIOUS persons.
So, if the information is being taken down, then you LOSE by providing it.  That is why a lawyer will say; Don't say anything to the police and that is irregardless of whether it is "harmless info" in your opinion.  If your name comes up in a police database at all, how will home security react when you are trying to travel somewhere and they are on a heightened alert for some reason.

skieur


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## JAC526 (Nov 18, 2011)

shootermcgavin said:


> JAC526 said:
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I've never driven drunk.  Just saying.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 18, 2011)

skieur said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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guess its just a diffrence of opinion.  if im secret service and i ask a guy a few questions, he answer them all politly and honestly id send him on his way. if a guy is not answering questions, evading answers, not wanting to give me id  i would be much more likely to put his name down.  im guessing he did that the first time and thats why he is now having someone go to his house to question him.

police ask questions allot of time to judge how you respond. not what you respond with.  they do want to know the truth so they can verify things. but they want to see if you start getting nervous, start evading questions, does your story change as you go along. things that throw up red flags that there could be an issue


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## skieur (Nov 18, 2011)

12sndsgood said:


> skieur said:
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Not a difference of opinion at all, but rather a difference in the knowledge of police procedures. Profiling is a common practice whereby the police keep records of people that they have stopped on the street for any reason and their impressions. 

Now, if a terrorist or criminal act, took place in a certain area, they would look at the profiles of everyone they previously stopped in that area and possibly bring them in for questioning.

By complying with the police in the profiling, you have automatically become a suspect. 

And by the way, you are assuming that the police will act in a common sense manner. IF that were the case, they would not be falsely arresting the average tourist or photographer for suspected terrorism and getting so many law suits in return.

skieur


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## unpopular (Nov 18, 2011)

The more people doing absolutely nothing illegal in these databases, the less valuable they become.

Like I said, I am very certain I am on some federal database, I am sure a lot of people are - anyone who has been mixed up with the cops at any protest, any event like the Rainbow Gathering, wears dreadlocks, arrested at a rave party - hell, that last one alone is like everyone ages 16-35 from like 1987-1997 

Seriously, who cares if you're on a police database.


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## skieur (Nov 20, 2011)

unpopular said:


> The more people doing absolutely nothing illegal in these databases, the less valuable they become.
> 
> 
> Seriously, who cares if you're on a police database.



The person who instead of being allowed to cross the border immediately, has to wait a few hours and be subjected to an interview because his name came up in a police database.

skieur


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 20, 2011)

skieur said:


> 12sndsgood said:
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so if there inpression of me was this guy was honest. easily answered questions. wasn't an ass hole. didnt act nervous.  that still seems way better then. this guy was a bit of an ass, he refused to answer simple questions. he questioned our authority he didnt want to comply.    

by compling with simple questions i have in no way whatsoever become a suspect. sorry i dont buy it. the one who refuses questions yes, he has possibly put himself on the list. that is why the guy in this video will have people at his house. because he acts like he has something to hide.

as for any false arrest everyeone makes mistakes. thats a part of life. does it suck yes. but im not perfect, nor are the police perfect. not answering simple questions is not going to change that in anyway.  nor will i see it crossing the border if the cop happens to do a serach for me and he found out i was polite, answered the questions asked and didnt seem suspitious.



i believe profiling is an illegal practice.  this is why 90 year old ladies get searched at the airport because you cant just search someone who looks threatoning. u have to search everyone.


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## shootermcgavin (Nov 20, 2011)

skieur said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > The more people doing absolutely nothing illegal in these databases, the less valuable they become.
> ...



That happened to me once coming back from Costa Rica, they through me in a room with like 8 other people.  I don't know if my butt even touched a chair I almost immediately went up to the front desk and said I think there's a mistake I don't belong here.  A supervisor came over and looked at a computer and said yeah you're ok you can go.  I don't think it's as bad as you make it sound, if anything they need to be more thorough not less.


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## Ryan L (Nov 20, 2011)

A few weeks later...A young photographer from Arlington, VA has been reported as a missing persons. Police say he was a person of interest, in a National security investigation. When agents went to question the man, no answer was received at the door. A week later, he was reported as missing, and police opened an official investigation as to the where abouts of this man. At the home, no signs of forced entry were observed, and the suspect was not at the residence. Neighbors only observed a black van with several well dressed men leaving the area, and a carpet cleaning crew.


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## MikeLem (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm normally extremely "scrappy" and anti-authority, but this is ridiculous.  The person holding the camera is more combative than the officers.


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## RobertDarasz (Dec 4, 2011)

I've taken pictures of the White House with visible cop cars and officers maaany times - just for teh lulz. Never had I any problems with the police officers or SS. This guy had to be an real asshole and obviously was well prepared for this. In my opinion they we're absolutely right to stop him for questioning.


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