# UFO question - do you believe?



## vonnagy (Jan 7, 2005)

yet a another kooky debate spawned by tpf's second most dodgy moderator.

India's government contemplates making extraterrestrial evidence public


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## Mitica100 (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah, they have been here for centuries if not millenia.


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## ferny (Jan 7, 2005)

You'd have to be pretty arrogant to think we're the only life out there.
I don't think I believe that story though.


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## triggerhappy (Jan 7, 2005)

the article said:
			
		

> India is also part of World Trade Organization. India is receiving major outsourcing contracts in IT and call-center service work from America and Europe



Well shoot me down and call me sherlock, they must be guilty.


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## Artemis (Jan 7, 2005)

I dont think we are the only ones...but I think it would be pritty hard to miss some weird ass green dude chatting to the pressy over lunch.


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## Lula (Jan 7, 2005)

Of course i do believe it, i speak to them time to time, they visit me .... hey they even give me presents, cows and stuff, ...... :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  free milk!!!!!!!!!!!!  :LOL: 

now speaking honestly, i dont really believe in the little green man.....but i do believe they're another sorths of living beings.....where they are i dont know.....but i believe you're not alone


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## santino (Jan 7, 2005)

sure I do.

where do you guys think I come from ?


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## Lula (Jan 7, 2005)

santino said:
			
		

> sure I do.
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> where do you guys think I come from ?



 :shock:  :shock:  :shock: 

So it was you in my backyeard!!!!!!!! ale:  :crazy:  :mrgreen:


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## tmpadmin (Jan 7, 2005)

*X-Files music playing in the background*
One day my people will come back and take me home.  Yeah, they are out there.  And probably did visit us, not as much as some think, most visits I'm sure were out of our range to detect.  But they are out there.


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## aggiezach (Jan 7, 2005)

I definitely think that we are not alone in this universe. While I was on a trip to Colorado when I was a kid, I saw some thing going on that were definitely strange and not likely to be produced by our species! 


Zach


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## Chase (Jan 7, 2005)

aggiezach said:
			
		

> I definitely think that we are not alone in this universe. While I was on a trip to Colorado when I was a kid, I saw some thing going on that were definitely strange and not likely to be produced by our species!
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> Zach



It was probably just MD


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## Corry (Jan 7, 2005)

I think Chase is an alien.


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## danalec99 (Jan 7, 2005)

If I am not mistaken, this news has not been published in any of the major Indian newspapers yet. This could be a hoax.

But my stand on UFO is very similar to ghosts and God. Just because I don't see them, it does not mean they does not exist.


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## oriecat (Jan 7, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> You'd have to be pretty arrogant to think we're the only life out there.



Well said, ferny!  I totally agree.  I don't know if I think they've been here yet, but I definitely think there has to be something else out there.


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## Lula (Jan 7, 2005)

Orie your avatar pretty damn funny 

hehehe


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## oriecat (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks Lula!!  I thought it was appropriate for New Years.  Might need to find a new one now...


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## ferny (Jan 7, 2005)

What is it? Looks a bit like an alien.


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## jadin (Jan 7, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> I dont think we are the only ones...but I think it would be pritty hard to miss some weird ass green dude chatting to the pressy over lunch.



Hey now, be nice, that's our vice-president you're talking about.


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## mygrain (Jan 7, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> What is it? Looks a bit like an alien.



OPus from bloom county after a night out with bill the cat if i'm not mistaken.


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## jadin (Jan 7, 2005)

Do I beleive?

Absotootinlutely.

Back in high school two friends and myself were out late at night being hooligans like we usually did. We were out in a rural area (close to where one of them lived). And at a rest stop. We decided to go skateboarding at it. The only catch was that it was super dark and we decided to go well birthday suit style.

Skateboarding in the nude is not something I will recommened. Nothing happened but if you were to fall in that state? Oh nelly! Anyway we were doing this for perhaps 10-15 min when a large "UFO" flew over head. It was triangle shaped, had bright lights. One of these bright lights was a giant spotlight which they decided to shine on us. The ship was maybe 200 feet overhead (or appeared so.. very low flying). It hovered there for a few seconds and then flew off.

I'm 99.9% sure our "UFO" was a military vehicle and some pilots were laughing their asses off at our expense. But it was still a neat experience, albiest one that I don't share often due to certain details of our circumstances! 

I use the term UFO since that's what it was an "unidentified flying object". But regardless, there's no possible way there can be that many galaxies out there and no other life in them.


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## oriecat (Jan 7, 2005)

mygrain said:
			
		

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Close!  It's from his bachelor party.   He's standing on the keg and has a mug on his head.


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## vonnagy (Jan 7, 2005)

jadin said:
			
		

> Do I beleive?
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> Absotootinlutely.
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wicked story Jadin 8)

It brings to mind when i was Dingo Australia (QLD), and was drinking VB's with a gang of crazy outback ockers. It was clearest stariest I night I have ever seen in my life, as you can only experience in the outback.

I was loaded just looking up at the stars, and I saw a ball of fire moving across the sky :shock:. I was scared to say anything because I didn't want these jackaroos think i was some crazy yankee which could hold my piss (which i was ) . So I just stood staring at the sky.

Sure enough, a gang of Aussies, backpackers and Aboriginals were staring at the sky the with and they all saw this flaming ball of fire zig zag across the sky at lightning speeds.

I think we were all on piss that night, but hey... It was a cool experience to share with other folks. 

Could have been anything. I've been told Ockers light to set rubbish bags on fire and release them in to the wind to mimick UFO - but considered the fire hazard that is for the outback - it might have been an aussie pulling my chain.

But real or not, twas coolness 8)


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## terri (Jan 7, 2005)

jadin said:
			
		

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That made me snarf my water...now my nose is burning.....thanks, Jadin!    :LOL: 


I want to see stuff like Mark described.....I'm wide open to the possibility.   I wanna see!!!!


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## ferny (Jan 7, 2005)

oriecat said:
			
		

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Ahh, ow I get it.




Nope, still none the wiser. Thoguth 'd try and look not so stupid.


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## ferny (Jan 7, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

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Next time you're skateboarding in the buff, Terri, don't forget the camera so you get some evidence. And please can you post them when I'm around. I was asleep when the board went down and they got rid of your photos.


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## mentos_007 (Jan 7, 2005)

sure I believe!!! UFO exists!! Just look on some guys on this forum


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## MDowdey (Jan 7, 2005)

mentos_007 said:
			
		

> sure I believe!!! UFO exists!! Just look on some guys on this forum





 :shock:  :shock:  :shock: 




md


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## oriecat (Jan 7, 2005)

Some of the guys here are aliens?!  That is so cool! 8)


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## rangefinder (Jan 7, 2005)

I firmly believe that we are not alone in the universe and intelligent life does exist elsewhere in the galaxies.  Moreover I believe that life looks prety much like us - not little green men or bipedal reptiles.

I also believe we have been visited by aliens.  

Geez, what a shock it would be to learn that maybe this rock was once colonized.  Maybe that's one reason governments are all too eager to keep the controversy going.


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## Hertz van Rental (Jan 8, 2005)

I am convinced that there is other life out there in the Universe.
The thought that we are the only intelligent life form in the whole of creation is too frightening to contemplate.
I doubt, though, that any aliens have ever visited us. They, like us, are bounded by the physical laws of the Universe (you can't buck Einstein) so travelling faster than light is out. And I should imagine the cost is prohibitive too. (People posit the existence of aliens and other civilisations but they seldom credit them with a Culture and Society or that they are probably subject to the forces of Economics. 'Hey guys! Shall we spend all our money, time and resources on wandering around the Universe or on better Schools and Hospitals?')
If aliens do go to the trouble of travelling through space to meet us I doubt wether it will be for the sole purpose of shoving things up our bottoms or making our women pregnant - it will be to borrow money to pay for the trip ('It's OK earthlings, we accept Visa...' or perhaps it should be 'take us to your lender!'). ;-)


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## rangefinder (Jan 8, 2005)

> They, like us, are bounded by the physical laws of the Universe (you can't buck Einstein) so travelling faster than light is out.



I must be bored or getting older or something. The "nothing is faster than light" has puzzled me for years.

Rewind to the Big Bang.  A colassal event that supposedly scattered matter in all directions, millions if not billions of years ago, which resulted in this rock we call Earth and all the other planets and galaxies that astomoners see through their telescopes.

Fast forward to today and some scientist looks through his telescope and see light from the Big Bang.  He says it is approaching us.

Now the question that puzzels me:  If the light from the Big Bang is still out there and has not reached us yet does that mean that this rock called Earth travelled faster than the light that is approaching but still has not reached us?  

Yep, it's onna be a slow day.


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## Hertz van Rental (Jan 8, 2005)

Einstein was a smart cookie as well as a genius. His theory of Relativity actually says ' it would _appear_ that nothing can travel faster than light' just to cover himself.
To answer your question: no reputable astronomer would claim to be able to see the 'light' generated by the Big Bang as it happened so long ago that any photons generated at this time would have long since been dispersed, absorbed or otherwise lost - for the same reason that your flashlight will not illuminate the moon from your back garden.
We may, however, be able to 'hear' the echo of the Big Bang within the general background radiation.
And we know that our solar system is moving through space much slower than the speed of light as we can calculate our velocity and direction of travel using Doppler shift.
Finally, the centre of the Big Bang cannot be approaching us for the same reasons as the centre of an explosion cannot catch up with the shrapnell.
Does that help?


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## Artemis (Jan 8, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> Einstein was a smart cookie as well as a genius. His theory of Relativity actually says ' it would _appear_ that nothing can travel faster than light' just to cover himself.
> To answer your question: no reputable astronomer would claim to be able to see the 'light' generated by the Big Bang as it happened so long ago that any photons generated at this time would have long since been dispersed, absorbed or otherwise lost - for the same reason that your flashlight will not illuminate the moon from your back garden.
> We may, however, be able to 'hear' the echo of the Big Bang within the general background radiation.
> And we know that our solar system is moving through space much slower than the speed of light as we can calculate our velocity and direction of travel using Doppler shift.
> ...



2 things.

1: You are the smartest, coolest guy ever, wish I will be as smart as you when I get older, although I doubt it.

2: I understoon most of that


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## Hertz van Rental (Jan 8, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> 2 things.
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> 1: You are the smartest, coolest guy ever, wish I will be as smart as you when I get older, although I doubt it.
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> 2: I understoon most of that



1) There's nothing smart about having a head full of useless information, Arty. And there are lots of people on this forum way cooler than me - you, to name one. I am just a boring and pedantic old fart.

2)That proves you are at least as smart as me and much smarter than a lot of other people.

So if I think you are cool and smart then you must be


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## Artemis (Jan 8, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

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 :shock: 

Btw, your still cool and smart


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## ferny (Jan 8, 2005)

Stuff can travel faster than the speed of light. You just can't see it.


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## Artemis (Jan 8, 2005)

Actually, Einstein said nothing can excellarate to the speed of light, what about things already traveling at the speed of light? like...tachyon speeds?


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## MDowdey (Jan 8, 2005)

you guys watch too much babylon 5





md


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## Canon Fan (Jan 8, 2005)

"Well if there isn't anything else out there, it sure seems like an awful waste of space doesn't it?"

Back to the IMC I go


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## triggerhappy (Jan 9, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> Actually, Einstein said nothing can excellarate to the speed of light, what about things already traveling at the speed of light? like...tachyon speeds?



Its far to long since I studied physics but as I recall he said that density increases with velocity.  If an object were to increase its velocity to the speed of light, the object would become infinitely dense.  Therefore to answer your question.... the object would be an infinitely small package of energy travelling at the speed of light, so in effect it woudl be... just like light.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

Or a tachyon?

e=mc2 means energy = mass x light2, so mass is = to energy, and since it takes infinate energy to reach the speed of light, it will make infinate mass...am I right?


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Talk about bullocks...

I don't understand how any reasoning person can believe in the big bang. The chances of it occuring with life resulting are so astronomically low, statitians would consider it impossible.

energy = mass x speed of light sqaured

so mass doesn't = energy.


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## triggerhappy (Jan 9, 2005)

jadin said:
			
		

> I don't understand how any reasoning person can believe in the big bang. The chances of it occuring with life resulting are so astronomically low, statitians would consider it impossible.



You clearly don't read enough terry pratchet   



			
				jadin said:
			
		

> energy = mass x speed of light sqaured
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> so mass doesn't = energy.



But mass and energy are interchangable.  Mass can become energy and energy mass - it's partly why light is such a puzzle.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

triggerhappy said:
			
		

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Yo sorry Jadin, I know im an idiot and make up stupid things sometimes 

Yeah, I think what Trigger happy was saying was what i was trying to get at 

Thanks Trig


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

triggerhappy said:
			
		

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But not on a 1 to 1 basis. Thus why the equation is stated as it is. Otherwise it would simply be "e=m"


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

jadin said:
			
		

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yes....im sorry....im not to good with sciency things, where are you going with this? There is a correlation between light and mass in some respects..thats all I meant, not that there was a 1:1 ratio...


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## triggerhappy (Jan 9, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> Yo sorry Jadin, I know im an idiot and make up stupid things sometimes



Don't be daft.  You clearly have much better things to do then hang around physics labs


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

triggerhappy said:
			
		

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ehehe thanks Trig, seems you know your stuff though, so I think I may stand back in this convo and let you take the lead dear friend.


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## triggerhappy (Jan 9, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

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I'd rather you didn't.  If I'm not careful they'll find out its all for show  :shock:


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

triggerhappy said:
			
		

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See, you know loads, youe even quoting Einstein now! LOL!


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## Hertz van Rental (Jan 9, 2005)

Mass and energy are basically the same thing. E=mc2 is telling us that if you accelerate mass to the speed of light it behaves as if it were energy. If you slow energy down below the speed of light it starts behaving like matter. If you keep this in mind then the behaviour of photons becomes easier to understand.
Of course, all this depends on where you are standing when you observe it. To us a photon is moving at the speed of light, but to a photon things appear different. It is stationary while we are travel at the speed of light.

As for the Big Bang - just because we find it difficult to believe does not make it impossible. The fact that we are here means that not only is it possible but it actually happened. And there is far more evidence to support the Big Bang theory than there is eveidence to support the existence of God. And how many reasoning people believe in Him?


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

I believe in both, I believe the the big bang was god creating life, and thats the way he does things.

But of course, this is my personal opinion, I believe in god because perhaps im scared, I also find it hard to believe that he couldnt exist


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> As for the Big Bang - just because we find it difficult to believe does not make it impossible.



The same sentence can be applied to God.



			
				Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> The fact that we are here means that not only is it possible but it actually happened.



What kind of propaganda you trying to pull with this one? This is a huge gap in logic. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. You're implying one _must_ equal the other which is simply not true.



			
				Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> And there is far more evidence to support the Big Bang theory than there is eveidence to support the existence of God. And how many reasoning people believe in Him?



What evidence is that? It's called a "theory" for a reason. I.e. it can't be proven.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

Well of course it cant be proven, we cant exactly go back in time to visit the big bang, as time travel is impossible.

A question comes to mind.

Have you ever seen a million pounds?

No?

But it still exists doesnt it.

What I mean by this is the fact just because your mind cant see the big bang (because it is impossible to imagine the beggining of time) doesnt mean it doesnt exist...


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> Well of course it cant be proven, we cant exactly go back in time to visit the big bang, as time travel is impossible.
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Replace "big bang" with "god" and the statements you said are just as true.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

It is true on both accounts my dear Jadin.

So then why do you say that the Big Bang is impossible? god isnt impossible? there has to be something, because otherwise there would be nothing...


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Hertz claimed there was more evidence to explain the big bang. That was why I asked for evidence. Yes it could've happened, but the possibility does not become proof.

Just a friendly reminder to watch how we respond, we're on thin ice with the mods on this subject.


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

I didn't say it was impossible, I said the odds were so much against it that _statitians would say it's impossible_. Anything is possible, anything. Doesn't mean it happens though.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

I see your side of the story, but there is alot of proof that it happend, impact crators, nebulas, we can apparently "Hear" the big bang, yes no alians that existed before it recorded it, but there is substantial info.

There is also something called the "Red shift" I think thats it anyways, which lets us know the universe is expanding, thats just the little amount of infomation I know about the subject


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> I see your side of the story, but there is alot of proof that it happend, impact crators, nebulas, we can apparently "Hear" the big bang, yes no alians that existed before it recorded it, but there is substantial info.



This is chicken and egg talk. How could something impact what it was said to create.



			
				Artemis said:
			
		

> There is also something called the "Red shift" I think thats it anyways, which lets us know the universe is expanding, thats just the little amount of infomation I know about the subject



The universe expanding doesn't disprove God or the bible. In fact the bible speaks of the universe expanding thousands of years before the idea ever popped into man's head. Zechariah 12:1 "...the One who is stretching out [the] heavens..."  Isaiah 44:24 "...stretching out the heavens by Myself." Among others.


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

umm...Maybe you misunderstood...Im not trying to disprove god...Infact I believe strongly in him...Im just saying that the universe is expanding because of the huge explosion forcing it outwords...


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## ferny (Jan 9, 2005)

Is this a good time for me to jump in with my view?

Science is only true until it is proven to be wrong. We're constantly being told "We just discovered that this is the.... Oops, scratch that. As I was talking new tests were run and *this* is the real... Hang on one moment, I'm getting another message..." You get the point. In 1000 years time, how many of our facts and figure will still be true? Look to what we knew 100 years ago and what we know now. In short, I'll leave it to the people who know what they're talking about to argue about important things whilst I go and make a cup of tea and wonder what to do with the rest of my life.

One thing that I do find interesting though. When scientists say "we started with the big bang" and you ask them what started it, what was involved, what was before, they scratch their heads and look a bit blank. 
That same goes for God really. What was around before God, what was there even before that, why did he create us etc, etc. 


Still, it starts a good argument.


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## doxx (Jan 9, 2005)

read 'Deception Point' by Dan Brown 
and you know what's going on


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## triggerhappy (Jan 9, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> Still, it starts a good argument.



It certainly does that!   

Got to be strong.... mustn't get involved.... (repeat to self 100 times)


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> What was around before God, what was there even before that, why did he create us etc, etc.



These seem like rhetorical questions (as in you don't want them answered). But I've answered them many times, even here on this forum. I doubt, however, doing so now would change your opinion. Your mind is firmly made up it seems. (just my observation anyway)


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

Jadin, I just wanna make sure real quick? This is only a friendly debate? not an argument, I hope you feel the ame way and dont feel like I am arguing wih you.

As for the god, what was before question, to be honest..he was always here, and...even though we cant imagine it, he always will be


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## jadin (Jan 9, 2005)

Yeah, friendly debates can turn sour real fast is all.

I agree, God always was, and will always be. There is no "before god". This concept is extremely hard to grasp for a human, however. Even for someone who firmly believes it. It just makes you want to say 'but.. but..'


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## Artemis (Jan 9, 2005)

Of course it does, to Humans, and I am of no exception, what cannot be imagined by the mind, will not come to pass.


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

> Jadin, I just wanna make sure real quick? This is only a friendly debate? not an argument, I hope you feel the ame way and dont feel like I am arguing wih you.


I'm not even debating so it's all friendly from my end.


			
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Although that did seem a bit sharp to me.



You're right, my mind is made up. In the sense that I'm not sure who is true. I believe most science but then I'm not going to say their isn't a God of some type. I don't see why it has to be a case of "there is a god" "no there isn't". Why can't it be a mixture?
They weren't even questions, just me rambling. You'll see that I did the same with regards to science. If you want to explain then do so. I'll read it. It probably won't change my view or beliefs (because I don't even know what they are) but after reading it I'll know that little bit more.


Has anyone (and this is serious) ever considered that we are part of a computer program? There was a program on TV about it a couple of weeks ago. I never saw it but I've had this idea for a couple of years. I went through a stage of being paranoid. Not long after getting the internet and wondering if everyone I was talking to existed or if they were robots.
It's an interest concept.


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

Personally no...My mind and everyone elses is way to complex to store in a computer


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## ksmattfish (Jan 10, 2005)

A "UFO" is just an unidentified flying object.  I've seen weird things in the sky, but I believe them to be of Earth origin.  I just don't know what they are.  It doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't know what they are.

Carl Sagan (one of my favorite scientists) said something along the lines that it would be almost mathmatically impossible for Earth to be the only home of life in the universe.  On the other hand he also said that those same mathmatical odds make the likelyhood of "aliens" finding us here on Earth almost impossible.  Our planet compared to the universe is significantly less than a single grain of sand compared to all the beaches in the world.

Assuming they could locate us, the problems of traveling the vast distances make actual visitation unlikely.  Like much of our space exploration, they could try to send machines of some sort.  Even so it would take a long time.  Long distance communication would probably prove more viable than actually meeting in person.  Even if we could communicate via laser at light speed, the time between messages would be enormous (measured in centuries).

To me, it seems more likely that if there are flying saucers flitting about, and they don't belong to any known goverment secret military program, then they are mole people from the center of the Earth.  As absurd as that sounds, it's probably more possible than visiters from another star system.  

Watch the skies!  Watch the ground!  The mole people are everywhere!!


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## ksmattfish (Jan 10, 2005)

Oh, by the way, if anyone is interested in reading some really bizarre ideas about the big bang, the big crunch, etc...  Search for "Frank Tipler" and his theories about the "omega point".  Weird stuff, and this guy is a real scientist.


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## MDowdey (Jan 10, 2005)

just remember one key thing....




There is no Spoon.



md


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

MDowdey said:
			
		

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He...he...he's right...how could I be so blind all these years?! It makes perfect sense now...MD...how may I ever repay you?


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## MDowdey (Jan 10, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

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i take payment in the form of sisters and mothers...bring them to me..



md


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

I have no sisters, and NO! lol


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## oriecat (Jan 10, 2005)

ferny said:
			
		

> Not long after getting the internet and wondering if everyone I was talking to existed or if they were robots.
> It's an interest concept.



I used to think something like that when I was a kid.  Not that I believed it, I just thought it could be.  Like everyone else is a robot and I'm the only person. I'm in me, so I know I'm not a robot, but I had no way of knowing about anyone else.


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm so glad you change your avatar back. You look great in it.


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## oriecat (Jan 10, 2005)

Thanks Ferny!


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

*Takes notes from Ferny*


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

Eh? You've confuzzled me here.


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

your charming our Orie cat, im talking notes.


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

Am I charming her? 

I've always thought she was hot in her avatars. I've just discovered the balls to tell her. There is a fine line between a paying compliment and being a pervert. I'm not sure if I've crossed it, yet.


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

Youve crossed it so far the line looks like a dot to you...


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

Bugger.


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

tart....am I playing right?


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## oriecat (Jan 10, 2005)

Who you calling a tart?!  :x  

Ferny, don't listen to him, your compliment was nice and no where even close to the pervert line.   Not that I know where that line is, being all innocent n all....


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## Artemis (Jan 10, 2005)

I didnt meen you madam, and if I did mean you, id mean the delicous, beautifull cake, the one everyone secretly wants! 

NOW THATS HOW YOU GO TO FAR!


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## ferny (Jan 10, 2005)

oriecat said:
			
		

> Who you calling a tart?!  :x
> 
> Ferny, don't listen to him, your compliment was nice and no where even close to the pervert line.   Not that I know where that line is, being all innocent n all....


If you ever need anyone to hold your hand as you plunge into the depths of perverse, just give me a ring. I'll bring the gimp mask and arab strap.


I must have crossed it there?


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