# are photographers above everyone else?



## Shadowbox (Aug 22, 2011)

Doing anything to achieve a pic, like breaking local guidelines and rules- does being a photographer exclude you from things like.. 'don't feed the animals here (ducks/dear/bear)'.. 'don't climb down these dunes they are protected' ..etc etc 

Where I go to practice photography its clear not to feed the ducks but another photographer was there feeding them just so she could get pictures. I have seen people climbing on our protected dunes, which you're really not supposed to do because they are fragile plus it's dangerous, just to get photos. I'm sure there are other situations where one see's things like 'state law don't do this' or even just a simple guideline of 'don't feed ducks' etc .. so why do some photographers think that since they have a camera they can break all of these rules just to get the perfect shot?


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## e.rose (Aug 22, 2011)

Photographers aren't above anyone else... They're just more willing to take more risks than the average Joe.  Im pretty sure all of us are well aware of the consequences, we just cross our fingers and hope for the best, haha.  No one is doing anything thinking "but officer, I'm a photographer!" will get them out of trouble.


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## Dagwood56 (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't think this situation is limited just to photographers. This is about the the type of person they are in general. I'm sure the people you mention break lots of other rules too when they don't have a camera -simply because they are of the belief that "the rules weren't made for them."


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## investmenttechnology (Aug 22, 2011)

as long as you're not breaking the law and you have a thick skin, I'd say go for it. 

embarrassment is temporary, perfect shot is forever.


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## Shadowbox (Aug 22, 2011)

Well I'm not a prude really. I just care about wildlife and nature, so it bothers me when I see people thinking that the rules are not for them or that it's okay to break them once in a while. They are there for a reason. So it's not like I'm going to call the cops, I just know that soon the ducks will be dependent on people if they keep getting fed and soon the dunes will be completely lost if they keep getting trampled on .. I know it's not just photographers, but I do wonder if people sometimes think having a camera sets them apart and gives them a good enough reason to not care.


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## Overread (Aug 22, 2011)

A lot of people with cameras also end up camera blind. That is they keep looking through the viewfinder only and not at their surroundings or situation. It means they are likely to ignore/miss/overlook warnings or restricted areas to get the photo they want. If they are leading to damage then a quick shout to remind them and call them back normally works on pull most out of "the zone" (whatever that is ). 

Certainly in wildilfe some people take silly risks in pushing closer and closer whilst putting the wildlife and themselves at risk just to get the photo without any training nor experience.


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## analog.universe (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't trespass private property, cause folks get stressed out about that sort of thing, and I don't mess with nature.. trampling dunes and what have you.  Take only pictures, leave only footprints isn't a good enough guideline when it comes to the wilderness, some footprints are devastating over time!  But the law on the other hand.... : )  "park closes at dusk", "road washed out, no entry", "no parking between 2am and 4am", "beach for town residents"... I don't take that stuff very seriously if I'm trying to get a shot.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 22, 2011)

I think that although sometimes rules/signs are not noticed due to being focused on a shot, that photographers as a whole need to follow rules simply as a courtesy and out of respect for other photographers. Its the people that are disrespectful that paint this profession as a bunch of @ssholes. [see paparazzi] Rules are usually there for a reason, even if you don't understand or comprehend that reasoning. However, there are some cases, where rules are used unlawfully ( by someone who has no authority to apply such rules ). Also, a photographer should know the difference between rules and laws. One you go for jail/get fined for, and at most, you can be asked to leave for breaking the other. However, in cases where your breaking of a posted rule causes damage ( dead animal from being fed bad food, you leaning over a barrier and dropping your camera on someone below etc.. ) you will be held liable.

I am a firm believer that people skills are a requirement for this profession. Usually you can get around rules by speaking to those who make them and getting an exception made for you. Whether that's by bartering pictures, or simply chatting people up. In most cases, you end up getting even better access than you would have had you simply broken the rules.


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## aliancer (Aug 22, 2011)

Shadowbox said:
			
		

> Doing anything to achieve a pic, like breaking local guidelines and rules- does being a photographer exclude you from things like.. 'don't feed the animals here (ducks/dear/bear)'.. 'don't climb down these dunes they are protected' ..etc etc
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> Where I go to practice photography its clear not to feed the ducks but another photographer was there feeding them just so she could get pictures. I have seen people climbing on our protected dunes, which you're really not supposed to do because they are fragile plus it's dangerous, just to get photos. I'm sure there are other situations where one see's things like 'state law don't do this' or even just a simple guideline of 'don't feed ducks' etc .. so why do some photographers think that since they have a camera they can break all of these rules just to get the perfect shot?



Your example is not an unusual "violation". I'd say he's taking the risk of "break the law from the blondspot". I believe he's not going to do that if anyone in charge around...
About the camera, it's like the first reply, not only photographers, anyone can do that if they have willingness to take the risk.

Sent from my iPad using PhotoForum


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## Do'Urden's Eyes (Aug 22, 2011)

Ive definitely succumb to this camera blindness.  Ive definitely knocked over a few drinks at concerts while leaning around people...


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## e.rose (Aug 22, 2011)

Dagwood56 said:


> *I don't think this situation is limited just to photographers.* This is about the the type of person they are in general. I'm sure the people you mention break lots of other rules too when they don't have a camera -simply because they are of the belief that "the rules weren't made for them."



^^^Haha... it certainly isn't.  It applies to musicians too  ... when my husband was on a tour they stopped at the Grand Canyon... he decided to go climbing because... well... he loves climbing.  Except he had to climb over a fence prohibiting anyone from going *past* the fence due to dangerous, steep ledges to do so.  

Apparently people were pointing and going "OH MY GOD LOOK!  SOMEONE'S CLIMBING!" and snapping pictures of him.

Someone promised to e-mail him a copy of a picture of him, but they never did. 

They were probably trying to turn him in for some reward or something.  Yeah.  That's it.  :lmao:


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 22, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Dagwood56 said:
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> > *I don't think this situation is limited just to photographers.* This is about the the type of person they are in general. I'm sure the people you mention break lots of other rules too when they don't have a camera -simply because they are of the belief that "the rules weren't made for them."
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. It would have been more " :lmao:  " if he ended up as a spot at the bottom of the Canyon. Its idiots like your husband that ruin the national parks for other people.


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## Dagwood56 (Aug 22, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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This reminds me so much of my husband. He went to a state park and lots of the pathways and waterfalls were roped off with yellow caution tape. It had been quite rainy and many of the trails were washed out or quite slippery.....didn't stop him though, he went around the tape! He said "It wasn't as bad as park rangers made it out to be." Of course when he got caught in a sudden downpour and tried to run for the car he slipped, fell and broke the camera - which sadly was MINE!! I could have killed him!! But anyway, he is one who "the rules were not made for." and he never learns his lesson. I learned mine though -never loan him anything!


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 22, 2011)

There was a woman who died very recently hiking Half Dome in Yosemite. There are warnings not to hike when the rock is wet because it is very slippery. There is a portion that is very steep and has makeshift handrails to help the ascent, but she slipped and went off the edge. That is why the warning is there. Granted a warning is not a "rule" but nonetheless, they are there for a reason. Heres another story that happened very recently. 3 Hikers Swept Over Falls At Yosemite National Park Believed To Be Dead | FoxNews.com This one involved going around barriers. 

The other issue with the Grand Canyon ( and likewise other places ) is that you also can affect others. Its not funny when you slough off some debris or kick a rock over the edge, and the people hiking below, or riding burros down into the canyon, catch it on the top of their head. Most people don't think of that, they just think "I won't fall, whats the big deal" . As stated above, you should assume that the rules are there for a reason even if you can't fathom why.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 22, 2011)

This was a tourist who ventured beyond a sign that said:"danger, rock may seem stable but it is cracked and unsteady."
He retreated when the larger rock began to quiver a bit as he put his weight on it.

This larger rock stuck out over a 200 or 300 foot drop.

I had my shutter on multiple fast exposures - just in case.


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## christian.rudman (Aug 22, 2011)

I wish you could have caught the inevitable fall! dumas...


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## Gaerek (Aug 22, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


> Also, a photographer should know the difference between rules and laws. One you go for jail/get fined for, and at most, you can be asked to leave for breaking the other.



Just to add to this. You break a law, there's the consequence of potential fine or jail. But you can get jailtime/fine for breaking rules on private property also. Yes, most times you will just get asked to leave, but the property owners are within their rights to call the  police to remove the "trespasser" if you break their rules. This is why if a rent-a-cop at the mall asks you to quit shooting (your camera, of course) you probably should or you could be cited with trespassing.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 22, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:
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 But there are laws that allow property owners to do that. If you are on someones property and it says "no cameras" and you sneak in a camera, you are not going to be arrested, but will probably be thrown out. However, if the police ARE called to remove you from the premises you can be, just the same as that person can call the police and there are other laws to be used at the officers discretion ( and based on your behavior ) as in disturbing the peace. That all changes when its a government installation though.

I get the point you were making though, the distinction between law and rule, is not always an easy one. That was the point I was making though as well. As a photographer, if you shoot alot of journalism or documentary, you should become well versed on your rights and what limits you can reasonably push and get away with if you absolutely have to.


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## Gaerek (Aug 22, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. 

I was just trying to point out that it's not as easy as saying "Laws will get you fined/jailed, rules will simply get you removed." I've broken my fair share of rules to get the shot I was looking for. Never been cited for trespassing, but been told to leave many times. I try and use my judgement, of course. 

"Trespassers will be shot." on a sign means I stay away.  "Park closed between 10pm and 6am" on a sign means I won't have to worry about crowds for 8 hours each day.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 22, 2011)

Gaerek said:


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 I know, I wasn't trying to come off as defensive, was just clarifying a little more of what I meant.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 22, 2011)

Are you kidding me. All I have to do is whip out my camera and I can go anywhere and women take off their clothes.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 23, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Are you kidding me. All I have to do is whip out my camera and I can go anywhere and women take off their clothes.


 Since whipping out anything else usually earns a chuckle from them. Or should I say "_whipping OAT, eh_" since you are from Canada:lmao:


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## shortpants (Aug 23, 2011)

There's risky and then there's just plain stupid. If someone wants to kill themselves falling off a cliff, it's their problem not mine. Something like trampling dunes pisses me off though.


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## bennielou (Aug 23, 2011)

I will say, as someone who does this for her living, I'm AMAZED at how little some photographers respect things, places, sacred ceremonies, etc.

I USED to have a zillion locations I could shoot at freely.  HOWEVER DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL PHOTOGRAPHERS, my locations are now greatly limited and there are so many rules in place I practically have to jump through hoops.  Or pay huge location fees....and THEN escorted by owners of the property to make damn sure I don't do boneheaded stupid $hit.

I hear the most amazing stories of crazy a$$ photographers from venue/location owners.  The common excuse from these "professionals" is that they needed to do what they had to to get the shot.  Sorry guys, but that is a bunch of B.S.

You know what?  If you are a skilled photographer, you CAN get shots without breaking the rules, disrespecting wildlife or property, and screwing every photographer who comes after you over.

Hey....there's a thought......


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 23, 2011)

bennielou said:


> I will say, as someone who does this for her living, I'm AMAZED at how little some photographers respect things, places, sacred ceremonies, etc.
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> I USED to have a zillion locations I could shoot at freely.  HOWEVER DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL PHOTOGRAPHERS, my locations are now greatly limited and there are so many rules in place I practically have to jump through hoops.  Or pay huge location fees....and THEN escorted by owners of the property to make damn sure I don't do boneheaded stupid $hit.
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 you tell 'em, girlfriend! *snaps hand in a "Z" formation while bobbing head*


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## bennielou (Aug 23, 2011)

A "Z" snap!  Holy Cow!   I love the "Z" snap!


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## TwoTwoLeft (Aug 23, 2011)

Since when are dunes so fragile? You walk through them, the wind blows, and an hour later they look brand new!


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## Kbarredo (Aug 23, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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 hey can you see the crick full of fish when you stand on the ruff of your house. We all have hill billies. We call ours newfies you call yours americans.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 23, 2011)

TwoTwoLeft said:


> Since when are dunes so fragile? You walk through them, the wind blows, and an hour later they look brand new!



Dune grasses are fragile.
Walking through them uproots them, they die, the dune is then unstable.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 23, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


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 Who said I was American? Besides, it was a joke, ease up and pull your maple leaf-embroidered flannel skivvies out of a bunch. If you make a joking comment, be prepared for a joke back. 

Also, my house doesn't have a "ruff" it has a lid........welcome to America.


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## Netskimmer (Aug 23, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


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My crick ain't got no fish in it, but there are few canucks...layball:

Canadian hillbilles, "You shure do have a purdy mouth eh."


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## Kbarredo (Aug 23, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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 Oh no I'm joking. Not mad at all.sorry if i came across mad


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 23, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> Canadian hillbilles, "You shure do have a purdy mouth eh."



HAHA, good one



Kbarredo said:


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 Ah ok, no biggie, I actually want to visit Canada one of these days. I hear its a lovely country, and frankly, I may end up moving there to get away from Americas mess. haha


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## table1349 (Aug 23, 2011)

The way I see this whole question can be answered by the late Jerry Clower from a little talk he gave to some college students at Samford University. 

_Youre Fixin To Mess Up
_
_Just recently I had the privilege of doing a show at Samford University in Birmingham, [Alabama].  Some of the young people there said, Mr. Clower, whats right and wrong? Tell us, were young people, tell us, whats right and wrong._
_Well you ask a pretty good question.
_
_So I worked me up a rule of thumb Id like to recommend to my own children, and to young people.
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_If youre fixin to make a decision about whats right and whats wrong in your life, do you ask other peoples opinion about it? Thats a pretty good indication your fixin to mess up. I was getting ready for a date one night when I was a little ole boy. And I walked into the side room and I said, Mama, is my shirt dirty? She said, Son, if youre in doubt, its dirty. Pull it off and getcha another. So if youre fixin to do something, and you want to know if its right or not, number one: do you ask other peoples opinion about it?
_
_Number two: do you argue with yourself? Man, I have spent a million mile on the highway arguing with Jerry about I oughta do a certain thing and I knew in my heart, I was lying. So if youre arguin with yourself, pretty good indication you should not do it.
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_Number three: do you feel uneasy when you do it? Had ya just as soon for somebody not see you doin what it is youd done decided is alright for you to do?
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_And Number four: Can you give thanks and say Lord, I thank ya for providing this for me.? Alright, youd done made up your mind: youre gonna do it. The Bible says, give thanks for all things. So when you do it, can ya say Lord, thank ya for providing this for me. And I some kinda thank ya, for fixin it where I can commit to what it is Im doin.?
_
_What is right or wrong?, Do you ask other people?, Do you aruge with yourself?, Do you feel uneasy when you do it?, Can ya give thanks and say Lord, I thank ya for providing this for me.? If you cant, you better watch outYoure fixin to mess up._


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## HagenDaaz (Aug 23, 2011)

My personal and honest opinion is that if there are warning signs and ropes, obey the law. As somebody who used to cross ropes myself, I plead you guys to do the same. I'm speaking from personal experience: once, while hiking in Bryce Canyon, Utah, I passed a warning sign without heed and fell off the path into a shallow gorge. Yes, it might have been tons worse, but it is certainly an apt warning. Before any of you suffer an accident, please don't! If not for the environment, then don't cross the line for your own safety. A chance of broken bones is not worth that stunning picture behind those roped off areas.


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## ghache (Aug 24, 2011)

I get the models climbing dangerous rocks and fences. I dont!


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## Kbarredo (Aug 24, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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 You guys are scaring the crap out of me. That debt stuff and everything is a scary thought. The canadian economy will suffer alot if the u.s goes down.


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## Netskimmer (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah, if we go down we're taking a lot of people with us, that's just how we roll.


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## Noxire (Aug 25, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> Yeah, if we go down we're taking a lot of people with us, that's just how we roll.


Ha! you will never bring Sweden down, with our 60% taxation our economy is already as stale as possible 

not saying that we are winners when paying more than half of what we earn to people who are "sick" (namely tired students who can't get out of the couch and get a job)


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## Netskimmer (Aug 25, 2011)

Noxire said:


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We call that welfare here. :mrgreen: I'm sure there are those here that genuinely need it but I am becoming more and more convinced that they are the exception and not the rule. Our government isn't the worst out there by far but when it comes to politicians who are corrupt, ignorant, greedy, corrupt, self-important, backstabbing, corrupt, ineffective, wastes of space, America is hard to beat.


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## MTVision (Aug 25, 2011)

Netskimmer said:
			
		

> We call that welfare here. :mrgreen: I'm sure there are those here that genuinely need it but I am becoming more and more convinced that they are the exception and not the rule. Our government isn't the worst out there by far but when it comes to politicians who are corrupt, ignorant, greedy, corrupt, self-important, backstabbing, corrupt, ineffective, wastes of space, America is hard to beat.



Welfare - what a great system! Here in Vermont you can stay on welfare for life! If you have kids the state will pay for education and training that never gets put to use. Probably half of welfare recipients are drug addicts who keep having kids so they can keep getting free money. If welfare required drug tests we would probably save millions of dollars a year. Instead we help people who don't need help and those who work and actually need help dont get it. Also, our country always seems so worried about every other country. How about helping ourselves first? Let's feed OUR hungry before feeding everyone elses. And the worst part is - we are in debt to other countries. Makes no sense. Sorry for my gibberish rant!! LOL!!! 

IMO if areas are restricted and/or roped off then nobody should go in those areas. Photographers aren't the only ones who do those sorts of things either!


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## Kbarredo (Aug 25, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


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 You think that's bad. W have to pay so that natives can live on free land, fish with no limit, hunt for free, have their own schools and have free college education. On top of welfare.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 25, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> Yeah, if we go down we're taking a lot of people with us, that's just how we roll.


 Isn't that the mindset of the 2 groups that attacked you guys. Japanese and the middle eastern terrorists. Irony


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## table1349 (Aug 25, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


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Let me get this straight, You the non indigenous peoples of Canada came in, took their lands, took their resources, took their way of life, forced them onto reserves, all with out their approval or consent, and you complain about paying them to live on fee land, fish with no limit, hunt for free, have their own schools and college education.  Perhaps you might not be aware of this, but before you showed up they lived on free land, as it belonged to no one, they fished only for what they needed and took only what they needed, not for sport, they hunted and took only what they needed, not for sport, and took care of themselves, the land and did quite well for themselves in their own lands.    Perhaps you should do the right thing and get the hell out and let them have their lands back to do with as they will that way you and the rest of the non indigenous Canadians won't have to pay them for what you did to them.  Just a thought.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 25, 2011)

I think you need to look at the history of filipinos before you start saying my people. You also need to do research on history of british warfare.the british did way worse to the french and scottish. If the british didn't find canada the chinese would have and it would have been 100x worse. Its not stealing its warfare.
What makes me mad is you guys think canada was a utopia before the british. It wasnt it was full of warring tribes killing each other and taking slaves. 
unlike you I did my research into this. I'm not gonna change your mind but remember who built the railroads and how many chinese died from it. Do they get any free stuff. Do filipinos get free stuff from the japanese and spanish? 
The natives are also guilty of causing the extinction of the north american horses. They over hunted them doing with other animals so don't give me that. It wasnt until the europeans bringing the horses over that there were more horses.


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## MTVision (Aug 25, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> You think that's bad. W have to pay so that natives can live on free land, fish with no limit, hunt for free, have their own schools and have free college education. On top of welfare.



You/we should pay for all that! It was their land. Canada/us butchered the natives. More natives were killed than Jews during the Holocaust. It was over a longer time period. We stole their land, their lives, their children and forcibly sterilized then.  Look it up - eugenics movement.  They live on a tiny parcel of land compared to what was theirs!


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## mishele (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes I am above everyone else........so **** off.......


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## table1349 (Aug 25, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> I think you need to look at the history of filipinos before you start saying my people. You also need to do research on history of british warfare.the british did way worse to the french and scottish. If the british didn't find canada the chinese would have and it would have been 100x worse. Its not stealing its warfare.
> What makes me mad is you guys think canada was a utopia before the british. It wasnt it was full of warring tribes killing each other and taking slaves.
> unlike you I did my research into this. I'm not gonna change your mind but remember who built the railroads and how many chinese died from it. Do they get any free stuff. Do filipinos get free stuff from the japanese and spanish?
> The natives are also guilty of causing the extinction of the north american horses. They over hunted them doing with other animals so don't give me that. It wasnt until the europeans bringing the horses over that there were more horses.



Oh I get it now. It's that age old I got screwed so I am going to screw someone else mentality. 
No one claimed it was a utopia.  What it was however, was their world, in which they lived by their rules and culture.  Hell the British didn't discover Canada.  Historically it is unknown for sure whether the Norsemen or the Chinese discovered it LONG before the continental Europeans or the British even had a clue there was anything here other than the end of the earth they believed in.   Currently it appears that the Chinese made their first trip around 1421, some 70 years before Columbus.  The Norse sailor Bjarni is believed to have discovered North America in around 1001 or 1002 A.D. in the area of Baffin Island or Newfoundland. 

Of course, if there had been no outside peoples coming to this continent there wouldn't have been the railroads, and all the Chinese that died from the building of them now would there.  

 As for the North American Horse and the South American horse for that matter, the  Hipparion and Hippidion were small of stature.  Only about 4 to 4.5 feet tall.  Not quite the same thing as the modern Equus, a single toed/hoofed animal.  It also has not been proven that it was prehistoric man that killed the the  Hipparion and Hippidion or the early Equus. At that time they were considered a food source, however there is no proof that they were hunted to extinction.  They disappeared during the last ice age in around 10,000 B.C.  A later evolution of Equus was introduced to the North American continent by the Europeans some 500 years ago.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 25, 2011)

Once again its not stealing its warfare winnings. Like it or not they got it easy.


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## MTVision (Aug 25, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> Once again its not stealing its warfare winnings. Like it or not they got it easy.



The Nazis didn't steal from the Jews either right? It was all warfare winnings. Yeah they got it easy NOW! Thanks for the history lesson. Didn't know that stealing children was part of warfare winnings. Also did not know that stealing someones rights to reproduce was part of warfare winnings! No matter how you look at it - it's stealing.  And it wasn't warfare - it was mass extermination!


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## Kbarredo (Aug 25, 2011)

MTVision said:


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 Would you rather they be wiped out like the rest of the losing people? The romans wiped out everyone who opposed them women and children. Moses wiped out all his enemies, the natives wiped out other native tribes. Ever british enemy that lost were either assimilated or wiped out. Its part of warfare there is no good or bad. Why is it ok for natives to kill each other but not if anyone else killed them. This argument is useless. I can't change an uneducated mind. Do your research.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 25, 2011)

You know what OP, when i'm shooting pics of any of my bikes I can park them in front of no parking signs, middle of the 6 lane streets, anywhere downtown, etc and not a single cop bothers me. Sometimes its places I'd go to JAIL had I not been holding a camera 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Designated "PEDESTRIAN ONLY" area:





Come on, not the sidewalk and against the sky scraper, and its my dirt bike hah:





OK, lets do an entranceway to a building and dare the cops to take me to jail since I'm "learning off cam lighting against the buildings bright lights" type nooB thing:


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## MTVision (Aug 25, 2011)

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You're right - you can't change your own mind and this is useless. Did I ever once say that it was OK for natives to kill each other or any of the other nonsense you spouted? And obviously in warfare there is good and bad - Geneva Convention. You are complaining about paying for Natives to live on free land (their land) and they get to go to college for free, blah, blah, blah. Might as well ***** about all the immigrants who come to our countries and go to school for free, and get their housing paid for. What you said was ignorant and that's all there is too it. The History Channel does not qualify as education.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 26, 2011)

MTVision said:


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how do I get my house paid for. I'm an immigrant and I pay for everything. My parents paid for everything. And yes I think that is bs as well. We all should have equality.


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


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Ok - that immigrant thing wasn't directed at you


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## avajetl (Aug 26, 2011)

nice shoot beside the hills...


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## Kbarredo (Aug 26, 2011)

MTVision said:


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 You really need to look at whats happening here in canada. In one lake I live by they net the fish by the hundreds. At one point the population was dangerously low and the gov had to step in and tell them to stop. Then they pulled out the my land argument. So if I get caught with 1 fish over the limit I get fined thousands. At the same time a native guy is killing hundreds in the same lake. Its annoying watching the people who claim to love their land slowly killing it. In the end its all selfishness. 
One more thing why is it racist to have an all white school but ok to have an all native school. There were awards in my old highschool that is for natives only.


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## ghache (Aug 26, 2011)

Nothing wrong with natives they provide me with cheap cigarettes and fresh lobters all year long for 2 bucks a pound haha
Seriously they should start doing like everyone else, Work, pay taxes, get licence to fish/hunt and if they want a ****in piece of land, get a loan a buy whatever they want, like everyone else.

There is no such a thing as freeland. We are in 2011. They are not forced to live on a reserve. they choose to live that way.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 26, 2011)

ghache said:


> Nothing wrong with natives they provide me with cheap cigarettes and fresh lobters all year long for 2 bucks a pound hahaSeriously they should start doing like everyone else, Work, pay taxes, get licence to fish/hunt and if they want a ****in piece of land, get a loan a buy whatever they want, like everyone else.There is no such a thing as freeland. We are in 2011. They are not forced to live on a reserve. they choose to live that way.


thank you. I have no problem with the actual victims getting compensation but why do their grand kids get it too. These people want equality but refuse to abide by our laws. My friend tried to adopt a kid from a band. Their mom drank and gave the child fas. When the band found out she was white they refused her and the child is still with its drunk mother.on top of that there are many corrupt band leaders that keep the money for themselves. I was driving around a reserve the other day and I saw a child come out of a house made of particle board that would never pass inspection.I understand the atrocities done to them were horrible but dwelling in the past makes it worse. What happens when interbreeding gives everyone native blood. Will everyone be paid then.


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## Forkie (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> ...the british did way worse to the french and scottish.



The French need a good kick up the arse every 200 years or so!


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> You really need to look at whats happening here in canada. In one lake I live by they net the fish by the hundreds. At one point the population was dangerously low and the gov had to step in and tell them to stop. Then they pulled out the my land argument. So if I get caught with 1 fish over the limit I get fined thousands. At the same time a native guy is killing hundreds in the same lake. Its annoying watching the people who claim to love their land slowly killing it. In the end its all selfishness.
> One more thing why is it racist to have an all white school but ok to have an all native school. There were awards in my old highschool that is for natives only.



Are you seriously complaining about some fish in a lake? You think the natives are killing the land? Nope, we all are doing that sorry. Not all natives live on reservations either nor are all natives like the ones around. Could've fooled me but I was unaware how great life is for the natives who live on freeland and who can fish and hunt for free. Maybe if so many white people stopped hunting for sport it wouldn't be an issue how much they hunt.  

Americas 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. That might surprise Americans who have consumed countless cheery feature stories about Indians making big bucks on casino gambling.
They do get government assistance but it's no different than what millions if other people get. The FDL in the Utah AND surrounding states probably gets more state assistance then all the natives in the US. And they are white people. Why is it OK to have religious schools? Same reason natives have their own school. 
They do not get a free college education either. They get grants based on financial aid and other such things. It is no different than poor white people or single mothers getting grants to go to school. 
How old are you? Is that native American award still on effect? The schools in my area (large non reservation group of natives) would never have an award for just natives now.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 26, 2011)

MTVision said:


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Wow, this thread has really gone astray. All them Native owned Factories, Power plants, oil refineries, and pharmaceutical plants really put a damper on my ability to get some quality R&R at my local fishing hole. With such high population numbers, and all of their automobiles, its a wonder I can even breathe when I do get to do some fishing. Can't they understand that this is MY LAND!? Those bastards! ( That was sarcasm for the people that are a bit slow )  Sorry, I don't base my moral compass on what the Romans, Nazis, and early Americans did. I base it on what I think is right. Even if that means that I don't get to fish quite as much and they do.

I have a nice job, a nice car, a comfortable new house with all the fancy upgrades, I have my health, I enjoy the comforts of having a high life expectency, I wear nice clothes, I have all the fancy gadgets, I eat at restaurants often, I enjoy climate controlled environments, I enjoy clean drinking water............I can buy my fish at the grocery store if I need a little extra.  Why not be thankful for what you do have and not try to compare yourself to others? There will always be someone who has more than you, who gets more than you, who works less than you, and who lives a "better" life than you.


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## bennielou (Aug 26, 2011)

Holy Crap!  This thread has:

Nazis
Terrorists
Welfare Whores
Law Breakers

Does it get any better than this? :greenpbl:


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## mishele (Aug 26, 2011)

I love these "Life isn't fair" or "They get more free **** than me" rants!! Why are you waiting around for a hand out?? Why don't you get out there and make something of yourself? Put all this negative energy into improving YOUR life and stop complaining about what other people have. AAhhhh.......lol 
:lmao:


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## Vtec44 (Aug 26, 2011)

bennielou said:


> Holy Crap!  This thread has:
> 
> Nazis
> Terrorists
> ...



Hot lesbians getting married?


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## Kbarredo (Aug 26, 2011)

MTVision said:


> Kbarredo said:
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I'm not american so stop comparing your natives with ours. Just look at the crime rate per capita of canada. The territories which are primarily native have the highest. You don't know how good they get it here so until you do a little research shut your mouth. And yes the award is still around in my school I'm only 22. Some bands in canada get 16k when they turn 18 for no reason. The fact that you don't care about something as delicate as a lakes eco system shows your ignorance. So should I get benefits because natives are asians who crossed the ice bridge. technically we are related.
They also have the highest rate of poverty because they refuse to come to terms with the times and get a job and education. What do you think this land would be like if it was never discovered. It would be poor and 3rd world or still full of wild people running around spearing each other.
Religious schools are also privately funded unlike the government funded native schools.
A few years back some native guy mugged and stabbed a white guy to death and tried to hide in his reservation. His band fully knowing what he did tried to stop the police because they don't abide by white people laws. They also deemed him a hero for killing an innocent man because he killed a white guy.
So yeah I think I have a right to hate just a little.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> MTVision said:
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> > So yeah I think I have a right to hate just a little.
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## table1349 (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> I'm not american so stop comparing your natives with ours. Just look at the crime rate per capita of canada. The territories which are primarily native have the highest. You don't know how good they get it here so until you do a little research shut your mouth. And yes the award is still around in my school I'm only 22. Some bands in canada get 16k when they turn 18 for no reason. The fact that you don't care about something as delicate as a lakes eco system shows your ignorance. So should I get benefits because natives are asians who crossed the ice bridge. technically we are related.
> They also have the highest rate of poverty because they refuse to come to terms with the times and get a job and education. What do you think this land would be like if it was never discovered. It would be poor and 3rd world or still full of wild people running around spearing each other.
> Religious schools are also privately funded unlike the government funded native schools.
> A few years back some native guy mugged and stabbed a white guy to death and tried to hide in his reservation. His band fully knowing what he did tried to stop the police because they don't abide by white people laws. They also deemed him a hero for killing an innocent man because he killed a white guy.
> So yeah I think I have a right to hate just a little.


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## table1349 (Aug 26, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


> bennielou said:
> 
> 
> > Holy Crap!  This thread has:NazisTerroristsWelfare WhoresLaw BreakersDoes it get any better than this? :greenpbl:
> ...



Sorry only safe one I could find. 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sWvD24wJnx8/ShYRcBNgeRI/AAAAAAAAA38/le7blw9fvJU/s1600/Neetu_Chandra_hot_lesbian+(1).jpg


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## Netskimmer (Aug 26, 2011)

Vtec44 said:


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> > Holy Crap! This thread has:
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Ooh, ooh, lesbian Nazi terrorists war criminals on welfare getting married by a native who is actually an athiest but got the license as a tax dodge! Yes...yes...mwahahaha!!!


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## table1349 (Aug 26, 2011)

Netskimmer said:


> Vtec44 said:
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Let me google that for you


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> I'm not american so stop comparing your natives with ours. Just look at the crime rate per capita of canada. The territories which are primarily native have the highest. You don't know how good they get it here so until you do a little research shut your mouth. And yes the award is still around in my school I'm only 22. Some bands in canada get 16k when they turn 18 for no reason. The fact that you don't care about something as delicate as a lakes eco system shows your ignorance. So should I get benefits because natives are asians who crossed the ice bridge. technically we are related.
> They also have the highest rate of poverty because they refuse to come to terms with the times and get a job and education. What do you think this land would be like if it was never discovered. It would be poor and 3rd world or still full of wild people running around spearing each other.
> Religious schools are also privately funded unlike the government funded native schools.
> A few years back some native guy mugged and stabbed a white guy to death and tried to hide in his reservation. His band fully knowing what he did tried to stop the police because they don't abide by white people laws. They also deemed him a hero for killing an innocent man because he killed a white guy.
> So yeah I think I have a right to hate just a little.



Stop comparing Canada to America. From what you said you're not Canadian either.  I used to live in Canada and now I live 10 minutes from canada. You're 22? Grow up a little and maybe you will stop whining about how unfair everything is!


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## Vtec44 (Aug 26, 2011)




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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> MTVision said:
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Honestly how rude and immature can you be?? Shut my mouth until I do my research?  Ok, little boy, I have done my research. I didn't say I didn't care about an ecosystem but I do care more about people.  You Canadians have done more damage to the ecosystems than any of the natives! Are you really that ignorant that you think they need to get with the times? Some people can't get out of poverty in case you haven't noticed. Its not just the natives either. Should we **** on everyone who lives in low-income housing and doesn't work.  And how do you know so much about what these bands did? Are you in their inner circle??  They don't get money for no reason.  Native Americans have "TREATIES". The treaties define the &#8220;PAYMENT&#8221; for  acquiring lands by the United States. &#8220;MONETARY SETTLEMENTS&#8221; were made,  and that money is &#8220;HELD IN TRUST&#8221; by the United States government.

Native Americans have "TREATIES". The treaties define the &#8220;PAYMENT&#8221; for  acquiring lands by the United States. &#8220;MONETARY SETTLEMENTS&#8221; were made,  and that money is &#8220;HELD IN TRUST&#8221; by the United States government.

The government holds Native American &#8220;LANDS IN TRUST&#8221; and collects  royalties from &#8220;RESOURCES&#8221; on Native American lands which the government also &#8220;HOLDS IN TRUST&#8221;. 


They provide a certain amount of education money to Indian bands, which in turn decide whose education to finance. So, no not all native americans go to college for free. No different than scholarships. 

"Not everyone is entitled to the money &#8230; There's a  cap. The money has been frozen for 20 years or so," says Victoria De La  Ronde, director of treaty policy with the Department of Indian and  Northern Affairs. 

IGNORANCE in 2011 is sad


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

I just want to apologize to everyone for ranting so much on a subject completely off-topic. I just hate it when people are ethnocentric!!


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## Kbarredo (Aug 26, 2011)

MTVision said:


> I just want to apologize to everyone for ranting so much on a subject completely off-topic. I just hate it when people are ethnocentric!!


 and I hate it when people use the whole stealing land argument. Its not stealing its warfare. Its happened for thousands of years. The world is what it is right now because of warfare. If this land was not discovered many things would be different. Europe would be overpopulated and we would have lost the world wars.
 The stupidity of your argument is making me weary. I have no time for an uneducated fool like YOU.
By the way me best friend is native and he's the one that brags about all his perks. So maybe it's just his band but its still bs.


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## mishele (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> MTVision said:
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You know, if you were arguing about how the system is flawed, I might be able to agree w/ you, but your not. You want free **** yourself. If I could offer you the free ****, you would take it and say, "that's right I get free ****" and be happy. That doesn't fix anything. People need to work to get what they have in life.  

*MTVision.......give it up....lol He is bitter and there is noway to change that. Unless he starts getting some free **** he's going to be unhappy.*


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## MTVision (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> and I hate it when people use the whole stealing land argument. Its not stealing its warfare. Its happened for thousands of years. The world is what it is right now because of warfare. If this land was not discovered many things would be different. Europe would be overpopulated and we would have lost the world wars.
> The stupidity of your argument is making me weary. I have no time for an uneducated fool like YOU.
> By the way me best friend is native and he's the one that brags about all his perks. So maybe it's just his band but its still bs.



Well obviously the land was stolen since they got some back and the government pays them for money they make off their land. Your best friend is a little kid and probably doesn't know why they have all these perks - just like you. Do your research like your so fond of saying. Basically what you are saying is your jealous of what they get and you don't. That's shows what a small minded, hate filled person you are.


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## table1349 (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> MTVision said:
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> ...



I'm sure you will enjoy Grade 9 this year.  Don't take it too hard, but there will not be any recess now that you are starting secondary school. Good luck in trying to obtain an education.


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## Gaerek (Aug 26, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> and I hate it when people use the whole stealing land argument. Its not stealing its warfare. Its happened for thousands of years. The world is what it is right now because of warfare. If this land was not discovered many things would be different. Europe would be overpopulated and we would have lost the world wars.
> The stupidity of your argument is making me weary. I have no time for an uneducated fool like YOU.
> By the way me best friend is native and he's the one that brags about all his perks. So maybe it's just his band but its still bs.



Semantics.

So because it's war and not stealing it makes it ok? Because Europe did it, makes it ok? I mean, Hitler killed millions of Jews. I suppose that's warfare also, and not murder? You can call excrement a number of names to make it sound better, but in the end it's still sh!t, and so is your argument.


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

This thread is like a drunken rhinocerous on an icy road in a windstorm.


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## table1349 (Aug 26, 2011)

manaheim said:


> This thread is like a drunken rhinocerous on an icy road in a windstorm.



Well grab a camera, that would be a cool shot. :lmao:


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## manaheim (Aug 26, 2011)

hahah


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## Overread (Aug 27, 2011)

*thread locked for going political*

Now off you all go and take some nice weekend photos.


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