# Tree



## amolitor (Oct 18, 2013)

for your consideration. remarks of any sort welcome.


----------



## tirediron (Oct 18, 2013)

I like the image, except for the little bit of building at the very top.  This looks like a great candidate for an IR conversion.


----------



## limr (Oct 18, 2013)

I was thinking the same about the buildings at top. I also can't decide if I wish there to be a bit more of the yellow line in the foreground - I find the matching color to be an interesting counterpoint to the tree, but more of it might be too much. Can't tell. 

What's becoming really interesting to me the more I look at it is that it seems at first to be all about the color and light. But every time I look back at it, I notice the lines. Tree trunks, bricks, yellow lines, curb, fence, hedge...  It is interesting how they interact and balance a picture that, by all rights, _should_ look crooked but doesn't. And now I'm starting to rethink those buildings because, well, more lines and all.


----------



## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 18, 2013)

Easily my favorite shot of yours I can remember seeing. 

A good exploration of composition, color, contrast, and light. 

I do agree that the area at the top could use a bit of TLC. The buildings pull the eye away from all the goodies in the scene.  My rule is, if it doesn't add to the photo, it's probably taking away from it. 

This is a passable clone job, done it about 90 seconds in PS


----------



## Compaq (Oct 19, 2013)

I must admit that the photo evokes nothing in me. All I see is a tree by a road, with annoying, yellow lines, buildings, and too yellow yellows for my taste. :blushing:


----------



## Designer (Oct 19, 2013)

I like it just as it is.  The street, wall, and background all work together to give the shot context.  The colors are interesting, the light is just right, and everything is working for me.  And I like how the tree is "posing" vertically on its sloping base.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 19, 2013)

I don't like the title; it gives too much of the story away .


----------



## Parker219 (Oct 19, 2013)

I really like this photo.  To me it says, "Even when life gives you uneven ground, you should still find a way to grow straight and true".


----------



## kathyt (Oct 19, 2013)

Parker219 said:


> I really like this photo.  To me it says, "Even when life gives you uneven ground, you should still find a way to grow straight and true".


I like your attitude Parker. Much needed today.
Op, the image made me look quite a few times. At first I didn't like it at all, but then once the building was removed it kinda grew on me a bit. (Get it.....grew like a tree?) So I am going to say I kinda like it, especially for compositional and color reasons.


----------



## fotofinish (Oct 19, 2013)

This cropped version is much better - the contrast is nice.



Majeed Badizadegan said:


> Easily my favorite shot of yours I can remember seeing.
> 
> A good exploration of composition, color, contrast, and light.
> 
> ...


----------



## hopdaddy (Oct 19, 2013)

I too like the repost better ,my eye stays on the tree now. my only nit then would be ,not enough room at the top of the tree .


----------



## amolitor (Oct 19, 2013)

Thank you, everyone, for your input, ideas, and discussion! Majeed, thanks for the clone job. I had guessed at what that would look like, but don't have the tools or time at present to do the work. It was much as I envisioned -- different, arguably better, arguably not, surely a matter of preference. The design is much more pure with the buildings cloned out, but the picture becomes more literally 2D and, I think, visually a little less interesting. I think I personally prefer the original, but I can see the merits of the modified one as well.

That said, I am occasionally accused of experimenting when I am not. This time, I actually am experimenting. This is the kind of picture I "see" pretty regularly, but almost never shoot. I raise the camera to my eye, and then cannot shake the vision of a million casual shooters with iPhones and a moderate sense of design and color shooting it before and after me. Then I shake my head, and lower the camera. Yesterday, I went out with the idea in mind to simply shoot something populist and appealing, to prove to myself that I actually can. Seattle, I admit, was quite wonderful to give me the tree and the light that it did. But I did shoot it and a couple other things quite quickly while carrying my 3 month old around, edited for 5 minutes in Picasa, and threw it up. Luck? Skill? Definitely some of both, and quibbling over how much of each isn't a game I am interested in.

In short: I don't have any problem at all with people liking this thing, it's quite flattering in fact, and I certainly enjoy the approval. This is definitely to the taste of many people, and I mean to take not a single thing away from those people. It's not to my taste. I hate myself a little for taking pictures like this, for personal reasons which I cannot fully explain.

Again, thank you all, both for your criticisms and your approval. I genuinely appreciate it all, as always.


----------



## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 19, 2013)

amolitor said:


> This is the kind of picture I "see" pretty regularly, but almost never shoot. I raise the camera to my eye, and then cannot shake the vision of a million casual shooters with iPhones and a moderate sense of design and color shooting it before and after me. Then I shake my head, and lower the camera.



It would be hard to shoot anything, anywhere if you are to concern yourself with such things every time you want to take a picture.  Instead, challenge yourself to bring to the scene what these "million" shooters cannot, or do not.



amolitor said:


> Yesterday, I went out with the idea in mind to simply shoot something populist and appealing, to prove to myself that I actually can.



There's an implication here that what is popular and appealing is to some degree a bad thing. 



amolitor said:


> It's not to my taste. I hate myself a little for taking pictures like this, for personal reasons which I cannot fully explain.



Perhaps you find it kitsch. 

It's a perfectly good image for many reasons, and many shooters would be delighted to have it. 

But honestly, I think you concern yourself too much with what people do or do not think, versus just shooting what you like. 

By the conscious avoidance of producing work that falls in the popular, you concern yourself too much. I don't see that as a great use of time. 

Perhaps a better use of your time and knowledge is just photographing _what you like_, _because you like it_.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 19, 2013)

But I do shoot what I like, and nobody else likes it much. That's sort of the point.

Populist isn't bad, if you're reading that into my remarks, sorry. I don't intend that meaning. I just don't like it.


----------



## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 19, 2013)

amolitor said:


> But I do shoot what I like, and nobody else likes it much. That's sort of the point.  Populist isn't bad, if you're reading that into my remarks, sorry. I don't intend that meaning. I just don't like it.



 Hmmm. Your wording was a bit cryptic. It just made it sound like you took a picture of something you wouldn't normally photograph, just to please others, and you really disliked the result. In fact, I think this is exactly what you did. 

But what's the point of that? I guess to "prove to yourself that you could?"     Is it possible that some part of you likes the image and enjoys the praise? Why else would you be compelled to post it and all that stuff? I mean, you've already pretty much said you enjoy the praise, even though you don't care for the image. So the questions are rhetorical.  

I guess what gets me hung up, and perhaps others too, is what is it that you're really saying under that other stuff your saying? I know you get flicked crap on this forum a lot, and I hope you don't see this post or me as a source of that. 

But maybe it's just your tendency to over-analyze and qualify each image ad nauseum-- adhere or detach the image to what is or isn't this or that at the moment. It's this moving target-- maybe concern yourself less with all that stuff. 

What's seemed to work for me is that old A.A. approach (maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't):  

&ldquo;There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.&rdquo;  

Concerning yourself with that and only that makes the other stuff less important.


----------



## sleist (Oct 20, 2013)

amolitor, you seem like a smart guy who knows a lot about photography.
However, I've seen little evidence to show that you know how to put all this knowledge into practice.
There's nothing wrong with that, but I do get a bit discouraged by your repeated deflecting of criticism with claims you are misunderstood.
It comes off as defensive and elitist.

It's unfortunate, because I think you could be quite good if you'd just quit pretending you know everything and listen a little.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm sorry, where am I deflecting criticism? Especially here, in this thread? Please supply quotes. Thanks.

P.S. I know which thread you're thinking of, which isn't this one, and I know you think I was deflecting criticism there. You're wrong.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't like sushi. That some people do like it is, at an emotional level, at a gut level, incomprehensible to me. I think _but.. it's just gross, ugh_. Intellectually of course I realize that it's a big world. I don't hate you if you like sushi. In fact, I married a girl who likes sushi. She's pretty ok!

Some people work very hard to make pictures which are copies of Ansel Adams. They stand where he stood, etc. They make beautiful pictures that look just like Ansel Adams pictures. This is incomprehensible to me in just the same way, but more power to those guys. My failure to "get" why they do what they do matters not one whit. They're having a good time and making things that they like. Go, guys, go! I heartily approve of people following their hearts and muses. They love sushi! They're happy when they eat it, and those smiles make me happy!

Some people work hard to get this pictures on Flickr Explore. Their joy when they succeed is wonderful, and it makes me happy too. They love sushi! I find the desire to make such pictures, of which I submit the subject of this thread is, more or less, of the type, incomprehensible. But, follow your heart, follow your muse, make pictures that please and delight you!

I don't like sushi. You may consider this picture to be roughly equivalent to me going out for sushi with a friend, to that sushi joint that she loves, that makes _good sushi_ not the obviously bad sushi I have had, because I hate sushi. I still don't like sushi, but i'm happy that you guys do. Enjoy the sushi! I'm sorry I don't like it.

I like making pictures that are difficult to love, but they don't look like anyone else's pictures. I just don't like sushi.


----------



## manaheim (Oct 20, 2013)

A-man...

I see a lot of elements in this shot that are interesting, or elements that could have been assembled for possibly something killer, but it feels like it juuuuuuuuuuuuust missed. That said, I'm impressed you got it this far because I would have just dismissed it as "something that caught my eye but that I couldn't make a picture of it."

Specifically, I like...

- The angle of the road opposed to the angle of the trunk
- The bright yellows opposing the dark reds
- The intersection of dead man-man pavement and cement, being over-run by leaves and a tiny little tree making it's way to lighten up the space

The crop is tough for me. I hate square crops and I think they make most images very static.

The top is too tight for the tree, I think, though I suppose you could argue it helps the "busting out" motif.

Still... neat to see and neat to think about.  And I like seeing your images as I do hear a lot from you but don't see enough of your work.


----------



## sleist (Oct 20, 2013)

amolitor said:


> I'm sorry, where am I deflecting criticism? Especially here, in this thread? Please supply quotes. Thanks.



No thanks.  I said what I had to say.  If you disagree, I'm fine with that.


----------



## limr (Oct 20, 2013)

Well, I know what I'm having for lunch today 

I've got no problem with you not liking this shot or ones like it, but I'm curious about the purpose of even taking the shot and then posting for comments. Is it simple intellectual curiosity, trying to understand what other people might see in the shot? Was it an attempt to find out more in general about people's criteria for good shots without putting a shot you actually like on the line? 

As for me, I wouldn't even know if this tree shot is "populist" or not. I suppose I assumed it wasn't because it wasn't slathered in Instagram filters and heavy processing.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

To prove that I can? To anyone who cares, which is mainly me.


----------



## pgriz (Oct 20, 2013)

Part of the challenge of picture-taking, is to convince the viewer of your point of view or perspective.  It's not about being the "arteeest", but giving the viewer the necessary references points so that they "naturally" see what you see.  Easily said, not so easy to put into practice.  And let's not get into the sanctity of photography as a purveyor of truth - we all know that photographic skill is to present a certain perspective, eliminate from the frame everything that doesn't support that perspective, and if we can't eliminate it, then clone it out or otherwise de-emphasize it in postprocessing.  This is no different from what we observe in journalistic writing, where the journalist, either consciously or unconsciously selects the facts that support a point-of-view.  Or take the actions of the painter who paints a certain abstraction (emphasizing certain elements and completely ignoring others), with the goal of conveying an interpretation of the scene.  Certainly, in the areas of commercial or political presentation, there is often the barest of connection between the "message" and the reality.

With respect to the imagery that makes YOU (Andrew) happy, it's your sandbox, and you do want you want (as we all do).  When we start to share our creativity, then we can expect a bell-curve of reaction.  If my preference is on one side of that bell-curve, then probably very few will "get" what I'm doing.  If my imagery is of the type that falls smack in the middle of that bell-curve of esthetic, then lots of people will like it.  It doesn't mean it's great - it just means that the reference points I use in the image are recognizable to most.  And that is what I think you're referring to when you mention the sharing on Flickr.

Then there's the issue of "pretty" vs. "great" .  In my view, a "great" image should provoke emotion and/or a "wow" reaction.  Ideally, the image should become a window on a deeper truth, and the viewer should read into the image.  What they read may or may not be what the photographer intended, but certainly, a "great" image should cause engagement with the viewer.  Good photojournalism and street photography do that.  Other genres of photography don't pull on the emotions quite so obviously, but I can think of many images that caused me to stop and look - really look.  And then come back and look again.  Now that's not to say that "pretty" isn't desirable on its own - but it's eye candy - pleasing, but not necessarily very nutritious.   On the other hand, "great" pictures can also be hard pictures to look at - especially if they highlight something that the majority of us don't want to think about.   Of course, not all "great" images have to leave your conscience raw and hurting - sometimes they are great because they open our eyes (and our minds and even, occasionally, our souls) to some aspect of the world.

Personally, I have a pretty clear idea of when I'm making "pretty" shots, and when I'm trying for that "stretch" image.  I haven't yet made a "stretch" image that I'm really happy with (and I've been at it for more than 50 years), but that's part of the challenge.  By the same token, I haven't yet written the short story that would make people change their religion or profession, but who knows...


----------



## Parker219 (Oct 20, 2013)

^ Well I'm glad you cleared THAT up.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

Ok, so, nobody listen to me any more. Listen to pgriz. Thanks for that awesomeness.


----------



## pgriz (Oct 20, 2013)

Ummm...  too many words, right?


----------



## PixelRabbit (Oct 20, 2013)

pgriz said:


> Ummm...  too many words, right?



Nope, all the right ones arranged wonderfully!


----------



## mishele (Oct 20, 2013)

Paul to the rescue!!


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

And for all those who offered critique:

1) Thank you.
2) I agree. I happen to think this is a good picture, of its type. I made it that way, and I am proud of the work. It's just.. it's sushi, and I don't like sushi.


----------



## mmaria (Oct 20, 2013)

No offence to anyone but, I"m just curious how many of us here get this amount of attention and replies ?

edit: typo


----------



## sleist (Oct 20, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Ok, so, nobody listen to me any more. Listen to pgriz. Thanks for that awesomeness.



You wanted a quote from me earlier.  Here ya go!


----------



## sleist (Oct 20, 2013)

bmmision said:


> No offend to anyone but, I"m just curious how many of us here get this amount of attention and replies ?



Squeaky wheels ....


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

I've posted plenty of pictures that got very very little response.


----------



## amolitor (Oct 20, 2013)

sleist said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so, nobody listen to me any more. Listen to pgriz. Thanks for that awesomeness.
> ...



Are you being funny, or are you somehow reading this as me deflecting criticism? I'm tentatively going with 'funny' because this thread's about due for a lift.


----------



## pgriz (Oct 20, 2013)

Going back to the image, I'd say you were about ten minutes too late (assuming we're facing roughly north, and the sun was setting), because it would have been neat to see the sun rake the vines on the wall and create a lighter backdrop.  As it is, the sun lights the tree and a bit of the bottom of the wall.  And while we're at it, you should have pulled out your portable step-ladder and got a perspective about a foot higher which would have eliminated that bit of sky.


----------



## The_Traveler (Oct 20, 2013)

pgriz said:


> Part of the challenge of picture-taking, is to convince the viewer of your point of view or perspective.  It's not about being the "arteeest", but giving the viewer the necessary references points so that they "naturally" see what you see.
> 
> Then there's the issue of "pretty" vs. "great" .  In my view, a "great" image should provoke emotion and/or a "wow" reaction.  Ideally, the image should become a window on a deeper truth, and the viewer should read into the image.  What they read may or may not be what the photographer intended, but certainly, a "great" image should cause engagement with the viewer.



Holy Crap, is this ever the truth about photography as I see it.

People are looking at the picture above and really not 'seeing' it. They are projecting what it could be as a composition and not so much what it is as a picture.
As a picture, imo, it is not finished.  The brights are too bright, the reds not brilliant enough to provide counterpoint and not much in the middle tones. If ever there was a justification for tone-mapping, this is it. The trunk and the leaves shouldn't be blown out.

The cloning shouldn't eradicate what is behind the wall, but subdue it and leave a hint of what was there to give the picture some 'depth'

To be really satisfactory this image needs more detail in the colors so I can revel in the reality or less detail so I can accept it for an impression. In the middle, to me, it just isn't sharp enough and it's an 'almost'.


----------



## tecboy (Oct 20, 2013)

Since you have a tree with saturated leaves, have the background to black & white.  The photo looks more appealing that way.


----------



## manaheim (Oct 20, 2013)

Paul continues to be my hero


----------



## manaheim (Oct 20, 2013)

bmmision said:


> No offence to anyone but, I"m just curious how many of us here get this amount of attention and replies ?
> 
> edit: typo



Andrew posts a lot here. That garners him a lot of visibility... Good and bad.  That means when he posts people pay attention.  The lesson  here is the more you put in the more you receive.


----------



## pgriz (Oct 20, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Paul continues to be my hero



:blushing::blushing::blushing:

I'd leave "hero" for people who run into burning buildings to save others.  And those who care for loved ones who no longer can, and do it with love and compassion.


----------



## manaheim (Oct 20, 2013)

pgriz said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Paul continues to be my hero
> ...



I have a weak criteria set. I also think amolitor is a hottie.


----------



## sleist (Oct 20, 2013)

amolitor said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > amolitor said:
> ...



I read sarcasm where apparently there was none.  My apologies.


----------



## Tee (Oct 20, 2013)

Pretty tree. Makes me want apple cider.


----------

