# A Word About Politeness...



## ffarl (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm going to say it, and I'm going to put a number on it.  I will no longer tolerate blatant rudeness and general "don't quit your day job" talk directed at anyone with under 20 posts.  How you treat each other is your business.  Once someone has had a moment to come to terms with the types of personalities that inhabit this place, you can go back to padding your egos with the dashed hopes and crushed dreams of others, but they're off limits for 20 posts.  

    Running off new members is just a rotten thing to do, and directly contrary to what this place is all about.  

     All my love,
  Aaron


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## amolitor (Oct 11, 2013)

Thank you.


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## JacaRanda (Oct 11, 2013)

Yes thank you!

I promise to behave from now on.


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## runnah (Oct 11, 2013)

When I first started people were very rude to me. I won't name names but you know who you are.


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## bentcountershaft (Oct 11, 2013)

Is there a waiting period on being invited by Old Gregg for some Bailey's?


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## ffarl (Oct 11, 2013)

You'll know it's coming when you wake up in a strange cave with seaweed in your hair.


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## Steve5D (Oct 11, 2013)

I absolutely applaud this, but I think the question which is begging to be asked is why tolerate it at all?


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## ffarl (Oct 11, 2013)

Because it has come to my attention very recently that some folks don't even know when they're doing it.  :mrgreen:


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## DarkShadow (Oct 11, 2013)

Bravo to this.


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## terri (Oct 11, 2013)

ffarl said:


> I'm going to say it, and I'm going to put a number on it.  I will no longer tolerate blatant rudeness and general "don't quit your day job" talk directed at anyone with under 20 posts.  How you treat each other is your business.  Once someone has had a moment to come to terms with the types of personalities that inhabit this place, you can go back to padding your egos with the dashed hopes and crushed dreams of others, but they're off limits for 20 posts.
> 
> Running off new members is just a rotten thing to do, and directly contrary to what this place is all about.
> 
> ...



sic 'em, bay-bay!    :heart:


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## sleist (Oct 11, 2013)

Do we have permission to be relentlessly brutal to the pompous know-it-alls that can't shoot for ****?


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## amolitor (Oct 11, 2013)

But that's all of us..


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## sleist (Oct 11, 2013)

amolitor said:


> But that's all of us..



No, it is not all of us.

There are people who post many photos and they inspire us through example.  We see them post wonderful, meaningful, inspired works.  Even when they fail, we know they are working at the craft
When they see fit to comment on our own works, we listen because they have shown by example that they know what it means to be a photographer.

Then there are others that talk.

And talk.
And talk.
And talk.

They pretend they know how to shoot and use long winded diatribes to convince others of their prowess behind the camera.
Yet, when they finally put their own work on the line (rarely), it makes one wonder if they even bother to listen to themselves.


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## amolitor (Oct 11, 2013)

sleist said:


> There are people who post many photos and they inspire us through example.  We see them post wonderful, meaningful, inspired works.  Even when they fail, we know they are working at the craft
> When they see fit to comment on our own works, we listen because they have shown by example that they know what it means to be a photographer.



It would be interesting, but quite impossible within the bounds of decency alas, to compare one another's lists of who these paragons are.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 11, 2013)

amolitor said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > There are people who post many photos and they inspire us through example.  We see them post wonderful, meaningful, inspired works.  Even when they fail, we know they are working at the craft
> ...



I don't know.. my list is actually pretty short!


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## sleist (Oct 11, 2013)

amolitor said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > There are people who post many photos and they inspire us through example.  We see them post wonderful, meaningful, inspired works.  Even when they fail, we know they are working at the craft
> ...



I see the purpose of this thread to be call to forum members to reflect on ones behavior and consider how it may impact others.
My post is nothing more than addendum to that call.



> It would be interesting, but quite impossible



From my perspective, it seems neither interesting nor impossible.


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## amolitor (Oct 11, 2013)

sleist said:


> I see the purpose of this thread to be call to forum members to reflect on ones behavior and consider how it may impact others.



This I agree with entirely!


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## The_Traveler (Oct 11, 2013)

ffarl said:


> you can go back to padding your egos with the dashed hopes and crushed dreams of others, but they're off limits for 20 posts.



I like this sentence a tremendous amount.
Hurrah for Aaron. :hail:

I was actually looking for a large 'applause' smiley but one shot at acting subservient will do.


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## bogeyguy (Oct 11, 2013)

Well stated Aaron.


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## Tee (Oct 12, 2013)

Damn, I really haven't been around much.  An administrator on TPF who posts?  Am I dreaming?  Unless you're a reincarnation of another long time member, if you think things are impolite now, your head would've exploded 3 years ago.  This place is sunshine and kittens now days.  Maybe I'm missing those kinds of threads but I haven't seen too many "don't quit your day job threads".  What I have seen is one post and run threads by noobs asking business questions, noob receiving business advice, and never returning.


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## manaheim (Oct 12, 2013)

GO FFARL!



ffarl said:


> Because it has come to my attention very recently that some folks don't even know when they're doing it. :mrgreen:



*snicker*


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## mishele (Oct 12, 2013)

Ffarl, did you have a rough day yesterday? Lol


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 12, 2013)

We are sorry Aaron, do you still love us?


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## mmaria (Oct 12, 2013)

:hail:




ffarl said:


> Once someone has had a moment to come to terms with the types of personalities that inhabit this place....





sleist said:


> Then there are others that talk.
> 
> And talk.
> And talk.
> ...



I'm fairly new here and it's a big problem for me to recognize to whom I should/shouldn't listen, because of the reasons sleist mentioned. I just can't understand the huge difference when they are critiquing and when they posting for critique.

I guess time will tell... or someone brave enough to say some names :idea: 

 There are relationships here I don't understand yet and discussions that repeat themselves in almost every thread there, and there are people here I wish they comment but they don't... 
All in all this is an interesting place to be in... 



Tee said:


> I have seen is one post and run threads by noobs asking business questions, noob receiving business advice, and never returning.



yeah... noticed that too


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## Designer (Oct 12, 2013)

ffarl said:


> Because it has come to my attention very recently that some folks don't even know when they're doing it.  :mrgreen:



So if we don't know when we're doing it, how will we know to knock it off?


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## pixmedic (Oct 12, 2013)

Designer said:


> ffarl said:
> 
> 
> > Because it has come to my attention very recently that some folks don't even know when they're doing it.  :mrgreen:
> ...



don't worry, infractions come with a note attached to let you know what you did wrong.  :mrgreen:


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## Tee (Oct 12, 2013)

Can you add a Charlie (CGipson) clause?  Because, honestly, when he gets going on the Best Buy salesperson selling a Canon Rebel to an instant pro with a Facebook page...it's pure comedic gold.


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## Overread (Oct 12, 2013)

bmmision said:


> I'm fairly new here and it's a big problem for me to recognize to whom I should/shouldn't listen, because of the reasons sleist mentioned. I just can't understand the huge difference when they are critiquing and when they posting for critique.



Learning who to and who not to listen to is something we all have to learn.
It doesn't matter who they are - people on forums - books - lecturers- professionals - amateurs. Sometimes some people are good to listen to for one subject and not others. Sometimes those in the know can't communicate well enough that even when listening you can't understand etc...

Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly help you. 

As for theory VS practical its my experience in photography that there are many people who have skill that outstrips their understanding of the theory of that skill and vis versa. Yes sometimes you will find people who can critique better than they can shoot (actually considering that compositional theories can be easier to learn than to put into practice its not unusual). Sometimes that might mean that they don't know as much, but listen to their arguments for their viewpoints and base your choice of that


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2013)

Overread said:


> Learning who to and who not to listen to is something we all have to learn.
> It doesn't matter who they are - people on forums - books - lecturers- professionals - amateurs. Sometimes some people are good to listen to for one subject and not others. Sometimes those in the know can't communicate well enough that even when listening you can't understand etc...
> 
> Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly help you.
> ...



All of this ^^^ is right on the button.

Remember in addition, none of us is the Moses of photography, leading you out of the land of ignorance with received wisdom.  
Everything is someone's opinion and, if what is said doesn't make sense on its face, it probably doesn't make sense at all.

Critique is, or shouldn't be, a competition to be the most incisive or brutal.


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> We are sorry Aaron, do you still love us?



...who doesn't like fuzzy bunnies


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> don't worry, infractions come with a note attached to let you know what you did wrong.  :mrgreen:



Are we talking about those super passive aggressive posted notes .....mr medic? lol


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## Victo (Oct 12, 2013)

Well said.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

bmmision said:


> I'm fairly new here and it's a big problem for me to recognize to whom I should/shouldn't listen, because of the reasons sleist mentioned. I just can't understand the huge difference when they are critiquing and when they posting for critique.



Saying names is frowned on.. because that might imply that those not mentioned are not worth listening too. Almost everybody may have something worthwhile to contribute... but you have to figure out where the good stops, and the BS begins. 

My thoughts... look at their images... If they talk a good show, but their images suck... are they someone you want to listen to?


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

Tee said:


> Can you add a Charlie (CGipson) clause?  Because, honestly, when he gets going on the Best Buy salesperson selling a Canon Rebel to an instant pro with a Facebook page...it's pure comedic gold.



:hug::


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

bmmision said:


> :hail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> bmmision said:
> 
> 
> > :hail:
> ...



Gorgeous and SMART!  :hug::


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > bmmision said:
> ...


Your one of the rockers cgips, and you just earned some bonus points!


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## mishele (Oct 12, 2013)

Get a room you guys. :er:


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

mishele said:


> Get a room you guys. :er:



Jeeeeelly lol


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

mishele said:


> Get a room you guys. :er:



Join us?


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

> When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.





> My thoughts... look at their images... If they talk a good show, but  their images suck... are they someone you want to listen to?




^^ But you see, this is where the failing occurs.   

  Read what Overread said here (boldface added by me):   





> Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask  questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for  the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just  parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does  understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly  help you.
> 
> As for theory VS practical its my experience in photography that there  are many people who have skill that outstrips their understanding of the  theory of that skill and vis versa.* Yes sometimes you will find people  who can critique better than they can shoot (actually considering that  compositional theories can be easier to learn than to put into practice  its not unusual). Sometimes that might mean that they don't know as  much, but listen to their arguments for their viewpoints and base your  choice of that *



The suggestion that a newbie just look at someone's pictures to decide if they want to listen to their advice is too simplistic, as it does not take into account the above points.  Not only that, but it assumes a newbie possesses the wherewithal to make a judgment call on someone else's images...making the argument somewhat contradictory.   

It also does not give anyone a pass to be rude or condescending to anyone who is new here, learning or trying to learn.    That is what we all see too much of, and that is what prompted Aaron's post.    We have behavioral guidelines here at TPF, and we're all held to them.


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## pixmedic (Oct 12, 2013)

IByte said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > don't worry, infractions come with a note attached to let you know what you did wrong.  :mrgreen:
> ...



It's better than a temp ban though, right?  :-D


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

terri said:


> > When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking at someone else's work is only one tool in evaluating their creditworthiness. It is human nature.


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

ffarl said:


> I'm going to say it, and I'm going to put a number on it.  I will no longer tolerate blatant rudeness and general "don't quit your day job" talk directed at anyone with under 20 posts.  How you treat each other is your business.  Once someone has had a moment to come to terms with the types of personalities that inhabit this place, you can go back to padding your egos with the dashed hopes and crushed dreams of others, but they're off limits for 20 posts.
> 
> Running off new members is just a rotten thing to do, and directly contrary to what this place is all about.
> 
> ...




Very good point OP; however, people really need a thicker internet skin IMO.  I mean if they run off because people are saying their photos look like hot garbage and they run off, then maybe a different forum is needed.  Also, if they really wanted to improve why not self critique their own photo first.  That was some of the best advice given by my professor, as to why did I take that photo?  What look, mood, or story were trying to portray?

A lot of times, people ask very broad questions, with no samples for others to look at.  Yes some people are more honest than others, and the people posting can't handle honest critique or smart ass remarks.  To me, it goes both ways, if people want members on this forum's opinions; then they need to have a thicker skin, and realize their work it is not everyone cup O' tea.

 They should not get butt hurt because people have not commented on their work, or comments they were not expecting.  Maybe I am old school in my in my tender age of 36, but people when they post questions, or want critique it helps their peers if OPs' bring some information to the table.  

Having said that, thanks for posting.


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## mmaria (Oct 12, 2013)

Overread said:


> Learning who to and who not to listen to is something we all have to learn.
> It doesn't matter who they are - people on forums - books - lecturers- professionals - amateurs. Sometimes some people are good to listen to for one subject and not others. Sometimes those in the know can't communicate well enough that even when listening you can't understand etc...
> 
> Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly help you.
> ...





The_Traveler said:


> Remember in addition, none of us is the Moses of photography, leading you out of the land of ignorance with received wisdom.
> Everything is someone's opinion and, if what is said doesn't make sense on its face, it probably doesn't make sense at all.
> 
> Critique is, or shouldn't be, a competition to be the most incisive or brutal.



agreed



cgipson1 said:


> When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.




yeah.... I'm looking at their photographs....and just don't understand the huge difference between saying and doing... 

I'm just not that kind of person. There are things I know and there are things I don't, simple as that. I'm not interested in "I know everything, you don't" I just want a constructive criticism and sincere thoughts I can learn from. No one knows everything!
Also, don't get me wrong I welcome anyone to tell me their thoughts regardless of their knowledge, everything someone say is useful. If someone has no great knowledge about photography their critique can be just about impact of that particular photograph and that is great. If I nail everything but the impact, then I didn't do any good.

One forum is more then enough for me. I want to settle here. 

What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > > When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.
> ...



No argument there.      But it also leads to instant judgment by certain members, who disregard the other aspects involved, and remain dismissive and insulting to other members.    Also human nature, but not pleasant.      It's what gets people "sidetracked" sometimes (how's that for a euphemism?).    ;-)


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

terri said:


> > When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a big clue too!

f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are currently taking, is that  "photographer" really someone that will be able to help them improve? 

Can't they use where they are at.. as a guide to where they want to be? Basically look at images and say "(#1) I want to shoot images like that".. and " (#2) not like this"... so they should listen to #1 with more emphasis than #2?


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> IByte said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



If anything, I'd rather be taken in by officer Kathy and be punished by bad boy whip Mishy. 

:greenpbl:


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## mishele (Oct 12, 2013)

You don't know what you're asking for...:badangel:


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

mishele said:


> You don't know what you're asking for...:badangel:



.....sooo that's your super adult term for " I dare you to misbehave"  hmmm?


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## Overread (Oct 12, 2013)

IByte - its important to realise that this is not the result of people saying they don't want critique or that they don't like when people don't fawn over their photos. This is about when negative views are expressed in a way which is rude or inconsiderate of the member. Sometimes this is just wise cracks which are not intended to cause insult, but which can appear hostile/closed circle/insulting to people who are very new to the community. This in turn makes the community feel hostile toward new people and can make them leave the site.

Clearly we don't want an unfriendly forum and we want new members - both the new and the experienced. We can't attract either group if members are chased off or if the general ambient attitude is dismissive or hostile toward new members. 

Forums always need an active recruitment of new members; that is to keep the community running; any community that closes itself up inevitably dies as people get torn away by other things or take up new hobbies.


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

> Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great  and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see  BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. I  At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person  they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a  big clue too!
> 
> f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are  currently taking, is that  "photographer" really someone that will be  able to help them improve?
> 
> Can't they use where they are at.. as a guide to where they want to be?  Basically look at images and say "(#1) I want to shoot images like  that".. and " (#2) not like this"... so they should listen to #1 with  more emphasis than #2?



That's expecting a lot from someone who is brand new, isn't it?       All I am trying to do is point out the other aspect that Overread mentions, that people should not automatically be dismissed based on lack of posted work or a newbie's assessment of what is posted.   Seems self-defeating, since a newbie simply lacks the knowledge to understand what makes an image good.   That is part of why they are here, to learn the difference.  

What the point of this thread is, is how we interact with said newbie.   Will the newbie get ripped for posting their own poor work, having the audacity to think they're improving?   Or will the newbie get ripped for linking to someone else's "perceived by them" excellent work, and ask how to emulate that work, which more advanced photogs might believe to be crap?    Either way it is the newbie's lack of knowledge that gets them bullied and run off from the forum, which is usually exposed within the first 20-odd posts, as Aaron mentioned.   It's been lose/lose around here if you are a newbie, that is the point.


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## jake337 (Oct 12, 2013)

Just another day at TPF, eh?  Well back to the kids I go!


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## PixelRabbit (Oct 12, 2013)

bmmision said:


> What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?



I find nothing wrong with sending someone a message politely asking them to take a look at your shot including why you are asking them, ie. you value their opinion.  I've done it a couple times and have gotten great feedback from the people.  

I can't imagine anyone not being at least a little tickled that someone valued their opinion enough to actively seek it out.


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

Overread said:


> IByte - its important to realise that this is not the result of people saying they don't want critique or that they don't like when people don't fawn over their photos. This is about when negative views are expressed in a way which is rude or inconsiderate of the member. Sometimes this is just wise cracks which are not intended to cause insult, but which can appear hostile/closed circle/insulting to people who are very new to the community. This in turn makes the community feel hostile toward new people and can make them leave the site.
> 
> Clearly we don't want an unfriendly forum and we want new members - both the new and the experienced. We can't attract either group if members are chased off or if the general ambient attitude is dismissive or hostile toward new members.
> 
> Forums always need an active recruitment of new members; that is to keep the community running; any community that closes itself up inevitably dies as people get torn away by other things or take up new hobbies.




Hmmm the dog on your avatar seems to make sense, yes, yes.  Even jocks can learn lol!!! Thanks for the clarification Over, I'm blaming Mish on this one..that's my story and I am sticking to it!


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> bmmision said:
> 
> 
> > What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?
> ...



Lil' bunny don't we have the unofficial super secret mentor program O.O, I'm also a client.  :albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino:


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## Designer (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> ...I do have faith that they can see BAD...



The faith is strong in this one!


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## mishele (Oct 12, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> bmmision said:
> 
> 
> > What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?
> ...



I've done this many times. I've always gotten great feedback. =)


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm a newbie, and still here.  I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I understand the true point, and knowing is half the battle lol.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

terri said:


> > Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great  and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see  BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. I  At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person  they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a  big clue too!
> >
> > f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are  currently taking, is that  "photographer" really someone that will be  able to help them improve?
> >
> ...



Non-Professional (amateur / enthusiast) newbies don't get ripped or blasted.... 

It is only the "I'm a professional (Rebel or similar, kit lens, no flash, under / overexposed, OOF, bad DOF, Bad WB, Bad Comp, don't charge much because I am learning, check out my prices on facebook) Newbies" that usually catch a significant amount of flak!

So we shouldn't be telling these BAD professionals how bad they are? Right?

Seriously, how often does the average (non self proclaimed PRO) newbie get flack? I would be curious to see the numbers... I know I would rather help that type of newbie... and usually do. (serious question... really)


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## jake337 (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Non-Professional (amateur / enthusiast) newbies don't get ripped or blasted....
> 
> It is only the "I'm a professional (Rebel or similar, kit lens, no flash, under / overexposed, OOF, bad DOF, Bad WB, Bad Comp, don't charge much because I am learning, check out my prices on facebook) Newbies" that usually catch a significant amount of flak!
> 
> ...



They do get flak but don't take it to heart the same way.  It's like you said a facebook "pro" getting put in check who takes it the worst.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

My fear is that if we discard honesty (and the disdain) that sometimes goes with it... we will be inundated by those just looking for a clue on how to shoot the next gig they have already accepted, and have no idea how to shoot!

*Hi, I am SO & SO "Terrible (facebook) PRO photographer"! I hang out on TPF... you can learn so much there.. just look at my images!" *

That would do wonders for TPF's credibility as a site that actually teaches.... don't you think?


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

> Non-Professional (amateur / enthusiast) newbies don't get ripped or blasted....
> 
> It is only the "I'm a professional (Rebel or similar, kit lens, no flash, under / overexposed, OOF, bad DOF, Bad WB, Bad Comp, don't charge much because I am learning, check out my prices on facebook) Newbies" that usually catch a significant amount of flak!
> 
> ...



  Ahhh So, here we get to the crux of your ongoing interest in this thread, Charlie



> Non-Professional (amateur / enthusiast) newbies don't get ripped or blasted


....    by ME, CGipson!



> It is only the "I'm a professional (Rebel or similar, kit lens, no flash, under / overexposed, OOF, bad DOF, Bad WB, Bad Comp, don't charge much because I am learning, check out my prices on facebook) Newbies" that usually catch a significant amount of flak!


            from ME, CGipson!




> So we shouldn't be telling these BAD professionals how bad they are? Right?



  Right!   You got it!   Its a banner day!  :cheer:      That is exactly right!   You are finally realizing that the _CGipson Standards of Photo Pros_ dont rule the forum, thus you have no business acting as the Self-Appointed Guardian of _TPFs Standards of Photo Pros_!     I think I hear harps   




> Seriously, how often does the average (non self proclaimed PRO) newbie get flack? I would be curious to see the numbers... I know I would rather help that type of newbie... and usually do. (serious question... really)




  Well, thats interesting, but we dont keep numbers like that.   You could perhaps make an educated guess based on the number of warnings, infractions or temp bans youve received, perhaps augmented by the number of PMs by the number of different moderators, myself included, with whom you continue to argue this pointand hazard a guess.      :razz:

  All kidding aside (and I hope you know Im just having fun with you here), when anyone, for any reason, decides its okay to adopt a tone with any new member here, it sets a poor example, and unfortunately it has become a tone that has been adopted by many other members here.   Its a little clique of self-appointed TPF members who think they have the right to talk and act as they please to new members, in rude or inflammatory ways.   

  Again Aarons post is simply saying he has seen enough of it, and will be putting the hammer down on anyone who engages in it.   As Overread said above, TPF values its new members, established members, its pros, amateurs and complete newbies.    



> My fear is that if we discard honesty (and the disdain) that sometimes goes with it... we will be inundated by those just looking for a clue on how to shoot the next gig they have already accepted, and have no idea how to shoot!
> 
> *Hi, I am SO & SO "Terrible (facebook) PRO photographer"! I hang out on TPF... you can learn so much there.. just look at my images!" *
> 
> That would do wonders for TPF's credibility as a site that actually teaches.... don't you think?




  No.   TPF does not label itself as a teaching site.   There is a _huge_ difference between saying you are a teaching site and a place for enthusiasts to learn and share information, which is what the front page of this site proclaims.    Note the word enthusiasts.   Not pros.   Anyone, from any level, can be an enthusiast!


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## Overread (Oct 12, 2013)

As stated this is not about not being honest its about having a respectful tone when discussing matters with other members of the site -with specific reference to those new to the community. 

As has been said time and time again you can be honest, so long as you are not insulting or hostile. As soon as that line is crossed its a slippery slope as others join in and instead of the person being educated or helped they are instead fast put into a defensive position as they have to fend off insults/jibs/jabs and attacks from all fronts. The thread then typically ends and everyone goes away with sour taste in their mouth - and the person under attack often never comes around again (and what do they do? Well they don't learn from us so chances are they just keep going on as they were before and any hope that commenters had as to improving that persons performance and the "quality of professional work" is lost ).


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

*I luvs being the DEVIL*'s Advocate!! * *

thanks for the honest answers.....

*




*


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > ffarl said:
> ...



Speaking of what *YOU did wrong,pixmedic*......


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

Derrel said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...



NOT realistic... Medic's MUSTACHE is not BIG enough....!


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## pixmedic (Oct 12, 2013)

Derrel said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...



if you want to be "technical" about it....
in my short tenure thus far as a TPF moderator.....
I have closed 1 (one) thread(s) and issued 2 (two) infractions. 

(i believe the one thread I closed was at the OP's request)
I MIGHT have closed a second thread that was an old zombie thread that got rehashed by a spammer...
I really try to explore other options of thread management, and consider closing a thread an absolute LAST resort. 
nobody wins when a thread is closed, so if not-so-subtle hints and (in)direct threats are enough to keep a thread from having to be locked....I consider that a win. 

also...the mustache isnt quite right...needs...more? maybe?
and for some reason you made my hair look like a short cut afro. 
you made me look like Lando Calrissian! (Billy Dee Williams)

good first attempt though! 
I am honored to finally take my rightful place among the honored guests of the TPF cartoon world.


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



I actually encountered the mustache upper limit... yes folks, Cartoon Pixmedic maxed out the 'stache-o-meter!!!


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> good first attempt though!
> I am honored to finally take my rightful place among the honored guests of the TPF cartoon world.



NOW you are part of the TPF Cartoon World! (tonemapped (HDR????) to Halo point!)


How come Derrel has more HALO than you do?


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## pixmedic (Oct 12, 2013)

FIFY

View attachment 57856


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> My fear is that if we discard honesty (and the disdain) that sometimes goes with it... we will be inundated by those just looking for a clue on how to shoot the next gig they have already accepted, and have no idea how to shoot!
> 
> *Hi, I am SO & SO "Terrible (facebook) PRO photographer"! I hang out on TPF... you can learn so much there.. just look at my images!" *
> 
> That would do wonders for TPF's credibility as a site that actually teaches.... don't you think?



*Imagine a world.... in which cgipson is payed a visit....and all he has to contribute is.....
*


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## sleist (Oct 12, 2013)

Derrel said:


> View attachment 57852



Thank god for the caption, otherwise this picture would have been far more disturbing than in already is.


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

Stache correction in Cartoon world


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## Newtricks (Oct 12, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> I absolutely applaud this, but I think the question which is begging to be asked is why tolerate it at all?



There is no reason to allow or accept this kind of treatment of anyone, regardless of how long they have been a member, or how many post they have made.


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## amolitor (Oct 12, 2013)

It is maddening that even a simple 'Ok guys, new rule.' post gets turned into the usual stupid meta-discussion from the usual suspects trying to justify their horrible behaviors.

I think our admin staff recognize that people sometimes have off days and say nasty things that are kind of atypical for them, so one doesn't want some sort of Zero Tolerance policy. It sounds like the screws are getting tightened about general bad behavior, though, and that's a good thing.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2013)

amolitor said:


> It is maddening that even a simple 'Ok guys, new rule.' post gets turned into the usual stupid meta-discussion from the usual suspects trying to justify their horrible behaviors.
> 
> I think our admin staff recognize that people sometimes have off days and say nasty things that are kind of atypical for them, so one doesn't want some sort of Zero Tolerance policy. It sounds like the screws are getting tightened about general bad behavior, though, and that's a good thing.



People cannot stand not being the center of attention


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> *I luvs being the DEVIL*'s Advocate!! * *
> 
> thanks for the honest answers.....
> 
> * ;-)*:taped sh::taped sh::taped sh::banghead::banghead::badangel::badangel:




:hug::


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

amolitor said:


> It is maddening that even a simple 'Ok guys, new rule.' post gets turned into the usual stupid meta-discussion from the usual suspects trying to justify their horrible behaviors.



So name some names!    I once proposed that the community be given the option of voting a person OFF the forum (yea... like that TV show)... but it didn't go anywhere! I still think it would be a good idea....  

I like the point that Sleist made!




sleist said:


> There are people who post many photos and they inspire us through  example.  We see them post wonderful, meaningful, inspired works.  Even  when they fail, we know they are working at the craft
> When they see fit to comment on our own works, we listen because they  have shown by example that they know what it means to be a photographer.
> 
> Then there are others that talk.
> ...



Let the community decide.. or at least have a say, in who stays and who goes!


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## terri (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > It is maddening that even a simple 'Ok guys, new rule.' post gets turned into the usual stupid meta-discussion from the usual suspects trying to justify their horrible behaviors.
> ...



But darlin', that could backfire on you in such an unpleasant way!


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## mmaria (Oct 12, 2013)

I came here  to say that I've had a disagreement with someone, and with just a few smilies everything went pleasant....

but....here it goes again.....

so ... what was this thread about?


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## cgipson1 (Oct 12, 2013)

terri said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > amolitor said:
> ...



Yea.. but if the community so decides, then that is it! I would deal with it.   Personally... I don't worry about it! I am upfront about my abilities... and don't like Bull Sh*t! If my skills and willingness to help everyone except the "self-proclaimed PRO's" aren't enough.. then I shouldn't be here in the first place.


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## sleist (Oct 12, 2013)

If my statement (or the original post) makes you feel even a slight bit guilty, then adjust your behavior accordingly.
Naming names is not required.

We all know who we are don't we?
If not, rest assured someone else does.

Nuff said.


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## Overread (Oct 12, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Let the community decide.. or at least have a say, in who stays and who goes!



The community already does. 
They can report issues and explain their problems to moderators and admin or they can also send private messages to specific mods/admin to discuss things. 

From there mods and admin will discuss current and past behaviour of the member and can then take action. We can discuss things with the member and hope that we can end things without the need for any disciplinary action. We can issue infractions and temp bans to hopefully show our seriousness with the problems if a member fails to correct their behaviour and - in very rare cases - we remove members who simply cannot change their behaviour. 

This is vastly superior to just having voting games. Voting games on who stays and leaves only ever leads to fracturing the site community and reinforces niche  groups that will snipe directly at each other. We don't want that; we don't want specific groups having conflicts with others on the site.


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

..I like pie


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## IByte (Oct 12, 2013)

terri said:


> But darlin', that could backfire on you in such an unpleasant way!



...Hmmm TPF reality show let me think..


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

amolitor said:


> It is maddening that even a simple 'Ok guys, new rule.' post gets turned into the usual stupid meta-discussion from the usual suspects trying to justify their horrible behaviors.
> 
> I think our admin staff recognize that people sometimes have off days and say nasty things that are kind of atypical for them, so one doesn't want some sort of Zero Tolerance policy. It sounds like the screws are getting tightened about general bad behavior, though, and that's a good thing.


Your name would be on there as having some "off" days! I can think of one in particular that if you were in front if me you would have lost a male part. I can laugh about it now though.


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

IByte said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > But darlin', that could backfire on you in such an unpleasant way!
> ...


I am in as long as Bryson and I get our own room.


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## runnah (Oct 12, 2013)

Everyone one in this thread including myself are guilty of being a dick to many people. That tells me that either this places attracts more dicks than a drunk girl at a frat party or being a dick occasionally is normal and shouldn't be made into a huge deal.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2013)

> "I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".



Telegram to the Friar's Club of Beverly Hills from Groucho Marx as recounted in 'Groucho and Me' (1959), p. 321


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> Everyone one in this thread including myself are guilty of being a dick to many people. That tells me that either this places attracts more dicks than a drunk girl at a frat party or being a dick occasionally is normal and shouldn't be made into a huge deal.



Confessing guilt is not so sympathetic when you excuse yourself as part of a crowd.
'Yah, we all did it.'

Why not just say that you won't be a dick anymore?


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## runnah (Oct 12, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Confessing guilt is not so sympathetic when you excuse yourself as part of a crowd. 'Yah, we all did it.'  Why not just say that you won't be a dick anymore?



I wasn't trying to get sympathy, just stating a fact of human nature. 

I can't say I won't ever be a dick again. I can say I won't intentionally be a dick to new people.


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

runnah said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Confessing guilt is not so sympathetic when you excuse yourself as part of a crowd. 'Yah, we all did it.'  Why not just say that you won't be a dick anymore?
> ...


Hey, at least your honest.


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## manaheim (Oct 12, 2013)

Folks...

Let's take a step back and evaluate here.

Now we have a thread warning people to be polite to others, and in that VERY THREAD... people are starting to not be so polite. 

You ask us to name names... and do it publicly... and I'll be honest I'm DAMNED tempted to do just that, because the level of irony (?) here is just too much to bear.

My suggestion is everyone just walk away from this and just assume that anyone here on TPF should take a few extra moments with each post to ask themselves are they TRULY behaving in a manner that would be considered becoming at a local gathering over tea.  If it turns out that you are one of "the ones", you should either be VERY CLEAR on that point, or you will be so soon... so relax.

Go shoot some pictures.


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## kathyt (Oct 12, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Folks...
> 
> Let's take a step back and evaluate here.
> 
> ...


Okay dad.


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## manaheim (Oct 12, 2013)

Some people just won't take good advice.

Thread closed before I need to deal with anyone else.


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## mishele (Oct 12, 2013)




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