# Vivitar v2000 project



## Norwolf

Hey guys, new to this forum here, but I figured this would be the best place to get some real good feedback. I love cameras in general (For taking high-res images of sports), but I came across a really nice piece of equipment that my grandfather passed down to me.


This was something that he payed good money for and I feel like it would be a shame to let sit in my closet for an eternity, so I set out to do some research on "making it digital". I recognize that digital does not rival film yet in image quality and resolution, but film is too inconvenient for me as a university student and to be honest I really want to start an awesome project where I can proudly say "yes I did that". 

My goal in this is not to save money, it is to "immortalize" the vivitar.

I hope to take a 35mm CMOS sensor, probably salvaged from another camera, and replace it with the back where the film rests. There seems to be enough room there. On the right side of the camera, where the cartridge lies, I could have a board with a micro-sd card connection in it. I could wire it so that the sensor turns on when I push down on the shutter button and turns off when the cmos sensor detects much less light. Here is an image of the internals:


This is obviously something that could work for many different cameras, and if this is successful I probably would do that with other ones. If feedback is positive I will probably start working on it. What do you think?


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## dxqcanada

I think that has been done before.

Nikon patents a digital back for 35mm film SLR cameras | Nikon Rumors
Digital camera back - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Leica Digital Module R Camera Back for Leica R8 & R9 35mm SLR Cameras Overview & Specs - Digital cameras - CNET Reviews

Though a DIY project would be interesting.

I remember reading someone modding a Sony NEX onto a 35mm body.


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## BrianV

No. Not without some custom electronic and mechanical engineering, and getting the CMOS sensor to sit within 0.01mm or the correct position. The camera is manual/mechanical, basically a Cosina made copal-square camera. It can be done, will probably need a microcontroller based sensor to detect movement of the shutter to trigger the electronics. A number of camera backs have been made, usually relied on the electrical contacts that worked with a databack. My 20 year old Kodak DCS200 used the electrical contacts intended for the Nikon N8008s MF-21 data back to trigger the digital back. I don't think the Cosina has this feature. So, you have the flash sync contacts.

If Only....

http://cultureandcommunication.org/deadmedia/index.php/Silicon_Film

http://www.ideinc.com/portfolio-consumer-electronics/siliconfilm.php

Use the camera with film.


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## Norwolf

dxqcanada said:


> I think that has been done before.
> 
> Nikon patents a digital back for 35mm film SLR cameras | Nikon Rumors
> Digital camera back - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Leica Digital Module R Camera Back for Leica R8 & R9 35mm SLR Cameras Overview & Specs - Digital cameras - CNET Reviews
> 
> Though a DIY project would be interesting.
> 
> I remember reading someone modding a Sony NEX onto a 35mm body.



There have been a couple successful DIY SLR to DSLR projects that really inspire me. When it comes to the Nikon digital back however, I feel like they created that patent to prevent other companies from selling camera digital backs. For Nikons, that means more people buying their cameras.



BrianV said:


> No. Not without some custom electronic and mechanical engineering, and getting the CMOS sensor to sit within 0.01mm or the correct position. The camera is manual/mechanical, basically a Cosina made copal-square camera. It can be done, will probably need a microcontroller based sensor to detect movement of the shutter to trigger the electronics. A number of camera backs have been made, usually relied on the electrical contacts that worked with a databack. My 20 year old Kodak DCS200 used the electrical contacts intended for the Nikon N8008s MF-21 data back to trigger the digital back. I don't think the Cosina has this feature. So, you have the flash sync contacts.
> 
> If Only....
> 
> Silicon Film - Dead Media Archive
> 
> IDE Inc. | Silicon Film EFS-1 Digital Imaging Device
> 
> Use the camera with film.



Custom electronic and mechanical engineering was exactly what I had in mind. I dont expect it to be easy, but I really think it is possible. I'm going to school for this sort of thing right now.


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## BrianV

Kodak Nikon DCS 420 C N90 DCS 620 F5 Professional Color Digital Camera'S | eBay

I would advise starting with a camera back made for a film 35mm camera and make a microcontroller based circuit to convert a signal going through the sync terminal into one to actuate the digital back. The parts are not expensive.


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## Horngreen

If this camera is truly important to you then I would strongly consider trying it with another one you can find at a pawn shop before hacking into your grandfathers old camera.


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## BrianV

Digital back for M film cameras - Rangefinderforum.com

The idea of a digital back has been discussed. If you want to really use the camera for photography, a "3D printer" to do the camera back that fits would be nice. Would be a good electronics/mechanical/embedded processor project for school.

The Nikon patent: I believe the only mechanism that they can patent is the z-plane adjustment, for moving the sensor in relation to the film rails. I'm not sure if Kodak and other digital back manufacturers have a similar mechanism, hard to imagine that they did not. So the Nikon Patent does not prevent manufacturers from making digital backs for film cameras as they have done for the past 25 years.


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## Rick58

Horngreen said:


> If this camera is truly important to you then I would strongly consider trying it with another one you can find at a pawn shop before hacking into your grandfathers old camera.


...or truer yet to your grandfather...buy a roll of 35mm


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## Norwolf

Horngreen said:


> If this camera is truly important to you then I  would strongly consider trying it with another one you can find at a  pawn shop before hacking into your grandfathers old camera.



I might buy the same model on ebay, they go for ~40$ and I could steal some parts from it later if I screw up. 



BrianV said:


> Digital back for M film cameras - Rangefinderforum.com
> 
> The idea of a digital back has been discussed. If you want to really use  the camera for photography, a "3D printer" to do the camera back that  fits would be nice. Would be a good electronics/mechanical/embedded  processor project for school.
> 
> The Nikon patent: I believe the only mechanism that they can patent is  the z-plane adjustment, for muving the sensor in relation to the film  rails. I'm not sure if Kodak and other digital back manufacturers have a  similar mechanism, hard to imagine that they did not. So the Nikon  Patent does not prevent manufacturers from making digital backs for film  cameras as they have done for the past 25 years.



Yea, a 3D printer would be great. I'm sure if I draft up the camera  back in autodesk inventor I can find a place that will print it out. 

I  already found an LCD display that I will use for the back of the  camera. I am currently looking for a good camera (preferably broken so  cheaper) that has a good 35mm sensor.


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## BrianV

If you start with a digital Back, you will have an interface designed to work with a Film camera. All you will have to do is build an adapter to make it compatible with yours. If you start with a broken digital camera- you have to deal with electronics that are integrated to work as a unit. The interface will not be as obvious.


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## Mike_E

Easy, shoot film then scan.

I doubt you Grandfather would appreciate your butchering his camera although I'm sure he'd have loved to know you took it out and used it from time to time.


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## BrianV

Except for removing the back, and plugging a cord and using the flash sync for an interface- no modifications to the camera should be necessary. 

I would use the camera with film. It was easier to convert lenses to Leica mount, sell them, and buy a digital Rangefinder than to convert a digital back for the M3.


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## Norwolf

BrianV said:


> Except for removing the back, and plugging a cord and using the flash sync for an interface- no modifications to the camera should be necessary.
> 
> I would use the camera with film. It was easier to convert lenses to Leica mount, sell them, and buy a digital Rangefinder than to convert a digital back for the M3.



I do not want to do this project because of convenience. I am a tinkerer, I love customizing or modifying equipment in ways that they aren't meant to be modified. Thats why I am in school for engineering. Nevertheless, I'm not sure what to do exactly at this point, because a full framed CMOS sensor is not cheap. I was hoping to find someone who payed 1500 dollars for a camera with a full frame sensor in it, broke it, and is now selling it for 300$ for parts. Still havent found anything. 

Instead I am contemplating another idea. The Canon Rebel has a decent line of cameras (and not too expensive when bought used). Instead of buying each seperate part and connecting it to a microcontroller, I would buy one of these cameras and put the internals (screen, sensor, board) in the back. This provides a few advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages:
Easily hackable firmware (a lot of custom firmware exists already) - This would allow me to remove useless features, like video, and remove many of buttons/switches. 
Not too expensive (300$-400$ for the body on craigslist)

Disadvantages
Crop factor (because of the smaller sensor) - I would have to draw a guide on the mirror so that I would know where are the borders of the image.

I like the camera back idea, but most digital camera backs that I have found have had low megapixels. I am looking for something that is about 10mp+

Let me know what you guys think


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## Sw1tchFX

LOL HE DID NOT PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THAT THING!!! ROFL!! I CAN'T THINK OF A CHEAPER CAMERA THAN A VIVITAR LOLLOLOLLOLOL


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## Norwolf

Sw1tchFX said:


> LOL HE DID NOT PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THAT THING!!! ROFL!! I CAN'T THINK OF A CHEAPER CAMERA THAN A VIVITAR LOLLOLOLLOLOL



A forum isn't complete without a troll, isnt it? You aren't wrong though, later I found a Pentax SF1 that was actually my grandfather's camera. The Vivitar was actually my fathers. I would like to actually do the same to both of the cameras, but starting with the Vivitar.


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## BrianV

Well the "Sw1tchfx" above is obviously not an engineer. He makes Pizza's for a living. I tinker with adapting lenses to work on Leica cameras. Paid for M9 and M Monochrom.

Full-frame cameras run $1500, used. The Nikon D600 broke the $2K barrier just recently. Adapting mechanical cameras and lenses can be done with machining, adapting digital and electronic cameras- once you get into the subsystems level- is hard. The camera back is inexpensive, and is a good starting point. Buying and taking apart used/broken digital cameras- a major undertaking. High-Megapixel camera backs exist for medium format cameras, and remain expensive. Kodak made a 6MPixel back for the N90 and for the Hasselblad. They would be the least expensive option. The Kodak DCS760 was a 6MPixel Nikon F5, the difference being it had a new body covering and did not come apart as did the DCS460. The "KAF-6300" has a 1.3x crop factor, and dynamic range that competes with "Modern Digital Cameras".


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## Norwolf

BrianV said:


> Well the "Sw1tchfx" above is obviously not an engineer. He makes Pizza's for a living. I tinker with adapting lenses to work on Leica cameras. Paid for M9 and M Monochrom.
> 
> Full-frame cameras run $1500, used. The Nikon D600 broke the $2K barrier just recently. Adapting mechanical cameras and lenses can be done with machining, adapting digital and electronic cameras- once you get into the subsystems level- is hard. The camera back is inexpensive, and is a good starting point. Buying and taking apart used/broken digital cameras- a major undertaking. High-Megapixel camera backs exist for medium format cameras, and remain expensive. Kodak made a 6MPixel back for the N90 and for the Hasselblad. They would be the least expensive option. The Kodak DCS760 was a 6MPixel Nikon F5, the difference being it had a new body covering and did not come apart as did the DCS460. The "KAF-6300" has a 1.3x crop factor, and dynamic range that competes with "Modern Digital Cameras".



Wow these cameras are really neat. I would love to get good at modifying  cameras, seems like a really fulfilling hobby to have. I think I will  buy another camera body like Horngreen suggested and modify it with the  parts from a camera back. I am not sure how good the 6MP camera back is,  and I would rather gain the experience tinkering with a camera that I  care about a little bit less. If all works out great then I will move up  to more and more complicated projects.


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## BrianV

I worked with "Digital Imagers" throughout the 1980s. My boss asked what would happen when film became unavailable. Told him I would buy a broken Nikon F36 motor drive and convert it to a digital back for my Nikon F. That was in 1988, 25 years later- film is still available. Enjoy it! 35 years as an Engineer, coming into an electronics lab is still a great way to start the day. "Off the Clock", tinkering with lenses is a lot of fun.


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## Horngreen

Rick58 said:


> Horngreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this camera is truly important to you then I would strongly consider trying it with another one you can find at a pawn shop before hacking into your grandfathers old camera.
> 
> 
> 
> ...or truer yet to your grandfather...buy a roll of 35mm
Click to expand...


I have to agree with this post along with mine . You want to do something very cool that would require the same skills without the same headaches then turn an old $5 roll film box camera into a digital camera. Now that would turn some heads. Films not that inconvenient it just requires a waiting period. I'm no engineer by any means and I too love to tinker but this project sounds WAY difficult and I'd hate to think in the end your memory of this camera is that it ended up in pieces in a box in the closet never to work again.


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## Norwolf

Horngreen said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horngreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this camera is truly important to you then I would strongly consider trying it with another one you can find at a pawn shop before hacking into your grandfathers old camera.
> 
> 
> 
> ...or truer yet to your grandfather...buy a roll of 35mm
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have to agree with this post along with mine . You want to do something very cool that would require the same skills without the same headaches then turn an old $5 roll film box camera into a digital camera. Now that would turn some heads. Films not that inconvenient it just requires a waiting period. I'm no engineer by any means and I too love to tinker but this project sounds WAY difficult and I'd hate to think in the end your memory of this camera is that it ended up in pieces in a box in the closet never to work again.
Click to expand...


Yea, I think I will begin with something similar to this: Konica Auto S2 35mm Film Camera + Case & Manual | eBay
Doesnt look to complicated, and would work great as a mirrorless camera, and I would work my way up from there.


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## BrianV

It's much easier to buy a mirrorless camera and then adapt the lens from a camera such as the Konica S2. If you do a good job with it, some minimal custom machining required: "people pay good money for it!"

50mm Jupiter 3 f/1.5 Information

I paid for the pair of Leica's mostly by selling lenses, most of them adapted. I also posted the step-by-step instructions online. I would like to see a real camera technician offer this as a service. 

I bought a couple of busted 35 RF's, took the lenses off, and adapted to a mirrorless camera. Did it for fun, but you could make a paying hobby of it. A Konica 30/1.9 from a half-frame camera adapted to an Olympus u43 camera:






Was-


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## Norwolf

I have to say, that modified Olympus looks really nice. Have you ever attempted to put a mirrorless into the body (with the lens) of a rangefinder? That is something that I would like to do. Make something that competes with all of the new ILCs.


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## vintagesnaps

I have a Konica Auto S2, that's a nice little rangefinder with a good lens and I've gotten some good pictures with mine. I'd hate to see one of those destroyed. 

I would think your best option rather than to tear up one of your dad's or grandfather's cameras would be to find something more run of the mill that's nonworking and being sold for parts - then use that if you want to create a 'frankencamera'. Sounds like a creative project if you can find something usable that's along the lines of a junk store find to tinker with.


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## Norwolf

vintagesnaps said:


> I have a Konica Auto S2, that's a nice little rangefinder with a good lens and I've gotten some good pictures with mine. I'd hate to see one of those destroyed.
> 
> I would think your best option rather than to tear up one of your dad's or grandfather's cameras would be to find something more run of the mill that's nonworking and being sold for parts - then use that if you want to create a 'frankencamera'. Sounds like a creative project if you can find something usable that's along the lines of a junk store find to tinker with.



I have never really experienced what film has to offer, other than my memories as a child with having to wait for 1 hour (which really ended up being the next day when going to the store) for the pictures to develop. I understand the art with developing images, and it sounds really great, except its not exactly something that I have time for (and its not on the top of my lists of things to do either). I see how it can appear that taking apart a viewfinder is a major waste of a good tool, and you probably wouldn't be wrong in many respects.

The way I see it, is that I love tinkering. I have done that since I was a kid. I modified and built things in creative ways. I am not doing this directly for the sake of photography (although it can help those torn between their old cameras and digital), I am doing this for the sake of engineering. Taking something good for one thing, and making it good for something else.


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## BrianV

I've never converted a film camera to digital, "was not the shortest path". The draw of mirrorless cameras, including Leica, is being able to adapt lenses to use on the body. 

For fixed-lens film cameras, I usually try to repair them to the best of my ability. I stop short of a complete teardown of the shutter mechanism. Lots of time required, cameras with working shutters can be found. I've combined parts from 4 broken Canonets to make one with great lens, shutter, rangefinder- and looks good too.

BUT: You want to convert a film camera to mirrorless. You need a camera with a shutter mechanism that is normally OPEN to allow viewing, closes when the release is pressed, opens again for the picture,and closes again. Just like a modern mirrorless shutter: always open, closes-takes the picture-then opens again. "Not many film cameras do that"...

Kodak Retina Reflex-S, circa 1959. Behind the lens shutter mechanism that sits in front of the reflex mirror. Finding a Retina Reflex-S with working shutter AND a prism that has not desilvered is almost impossible. I found one with a working shutter, and replaced the Prism with one from a 1980s Minolta SLR. So mine is Great, not parting it out. Uses 35mm film.

AND Kodak Instamatic Reflex. Electronic Shutter, Aperture-preferred Automatic. Means more limited ISO. Uses 126 cartridges, I quit using mine. CHEAP!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KODAK-INSTA...172208667?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3ccf13a41b


I left off the Retina reflex III and IV- much more complicated metering mechanism, hard to work on. The Reflex-S is much easier.

SO: Your project,
1) Find a retina Reflex-S with working shutter, Prism condition with regard to desilvering- not a problem.
2) The Reflex Mirror and baffle at the film gate needs to be removed, or locked in the UP position. It is all spring-loaded.
3) The camera has X-Sync at ANY Shutter speed, 1-sec through to 1/500th second. Standard PC cord Sync.
4) Remove the back, position the CMOS sensor at the film gate.
5) make a Sync circuit to detect when the shutter is Open, trip the CMOS to take the image. Depending on the specifics of the Mirror mechanism, you could use the Camera's mechanism that actuate the mirror as a trigger to turn on the CMOS detector, then let the camera's shutter make the actual exposure. Depends on the start up time of the CMOS sensor.

You could look at Digikey and other places for a Developer's Kit for a CMOS sensor. Truesense sells one for the new u43 CMOS sensor, other manufacturers also sell them. These allow prototyping and development of new cameras. They might not be cheap, you might look around for these used- like after a company is finished with them. If any of the engineering professors are into photography, this would be a good project for school.


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## vintagesnaps

I don't have the technical expertise to understand all of this (although I'm following these type threads to pick Brian's and others' brains a little), but are there other 126 cameras that could work for this type project? I have one of the Kodak Reflex Instamatics (thrift store find) and was thinking there's more room in the interior of some of those type cameras to accomodate the film cartridge, isn't there? - since there wasn't a need with those to feed roll film across a pressure plate from one spool to another. 

I know of people hacking a couple of cameras together for a particular purpose (or doing battery conversions on old Polaroids etc.), it just seems like people who love film cameras typically use common dime a dozen type cameras to work on instead of ones that still have some value or collectibility or meaning as a family momento. You might be glad later on if you go with using some cheapie camera for what sounds like an interesting project.


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## BrianV

I have a basement full of parts cameras, many with shutters beyond my skill to repair. With those- I have no problem cutting the lenses out and adapting to a mirrorless camera. I gave the Hexanon 30/1.9 to a friend at work today to use on a Panasonic u43. I picked up a Rollei 126 camera with 40/3.5 Sonnar on it. Camera was broken, I took the lens out. Need to decide what to mount it in.

The Instamatic Reflex- these ran $20 at camera shows, with the 50/1.9 Xenon lens. I put the lens on the Reflex-S. Converting the 126 camera to use 35mm film: some have done it, but you will need to make a new back for it. Instamatic film was paper-backed, and the camera back has a clear window on it.

But Tonight's project: $25 Zoom-Nikkor 43~86/3.5, one of the first run of lenses, about the 1000th made, 50 year old zoom lens. Aperture was stuck, oil. Popped all the glass, flood cleaned, back together. 90minutes. Looks great, perfect glass. Probably developed the aperture problem early on, and got shelved. I'll start a thread on collectible lenses.


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## Norwolf

I went out and bought two cheap cameras at my local thrift store, and posted an ad on craigslist for broken/unwanted cameras. So far I am getting a good few responses. 

But here are the two cameras I have right now:


An Afga Afgamatic Ia and a Polaroid 635CL. 

I figured I would start with the polaroid, was only 10$, and it looks like it has a lot of working room on the inside once the mechanics are stripped out. I feel bad (possibly) ruining this camera, but I have a feeling its not going to work anyways. The battery in this cartridge is dead and I am not spending the ridiculous price for the new cartridges.

For the Afga, the bottom gets removed easy, and it looks it would have a lot of room too on the inside once I grind down some of that plastic. There might be shuttle mechanisms in there, but I will be removing the shutter so its not a big deal. I will do that project though after I do the polaroid. All I need now is a decent digital camera, and I think I might be getting one for free. 

Update: I just got offered an old Kodak easyshare C310. Not exactly my camera of choice, but it is free and and everything works. I could try to get it working on the Polaroid and later strip out the digital camera parts if I get another donor camera.


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## BrianV

Remember that a Point and Shoot camera has a sensor the size of a postage stamp.

The lowest price micro-43 mirrorless cameras run just a little over $100, an Olympus EPL1 would be a good starter. The lens comes off, and the flange-distance is small. You could make a holder to move it into position, not modify the camera at all.


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## Horngreen

Norwolf said:


> Horngreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...or truer yet to your grandfather...buy a roll of 35mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to agree with this post along with mine . You want to do something very cool that would require the same skills without the same headaches then turn an old $5 roll film box camera into a digital camera. Now that would turn some heads. Films not that inconvenient it just requires a waiting period. I'm no engineer by any means and I too love to tinker but this project sounds WAY difficult and I'd hate to think in the end your memory of this camera is that it ended up in pieces in a box in the closet never to work again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea, I think I will begin with something similar to this: Konica Auto S2 35mm Film Camera + Case & Manual | eBay
> Doesnt look to complicated, and would work great as a mirrorless camera, and I would work my way up from there.
Click to expand...


If you pull this off you will be "Da Man". I know if I tried it I'd get frustrated and toss it in the closet, you should see my closet.


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## Norwolf

I think I will have to do a lot of research on how camera lenses work. Any good resources that you can recommend? 

I started taking apart the Polaroid and I realized I will have to create a few of my own parts. There is plenty of room for the sensor, but since the polaroid is meant to shine the light on a 3.1 x 3.1 inch film, I will have to improvise.

I would rather go on the inexpensive side to start with, in case I mess things up. 100$ is not much, but it can add up quickly. 

I hope to use a lens from surplusshed (Lens Finder - Surplus Shed) and get someone to print out a part that I will draft up . The part would hold the lens in the proper position inside the polaroid, and I would epoxy it to the case and fiddle with it to get the lens placement right so that the CCD sensor can get a clear image.



Horngreen said:


> Norwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Horngreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to agree with this post along with mine . You want to do something very cool that would require the same skills without the same headaches then turn an old $5 roll film box camera into a digital camera. Now that would turn some heads. Films not that inconvenient it just requires a waiting period. I'm no engineer by any means and I too love to tinker but this project sounds WAY difficult and I'd hate to think in the end your memory of this camera is that it ended up in pieces in a box in the closet never to work again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I think I will begin with something similar to this: Konica Auto S2 35mm Film Camera + Case & Manual | eBay
> Doesnt look to complicated, and would work great as a mirrorless camera, and I would work my way up from there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you pull this off you will be "Da Man". I know if I tried it I'd get frustrated and toss it in the closet, you should see my closet.
Click to expand...


I am documenting each step with images so that this kind of hack can be performed and possibly improved by other people too. I would love to see this become a common thing.


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## BrianV

Ch01 Smith MOE pdf free ebook download from www.davincisworld.com

Free Download of a PDF book on optical design, and examples.

Also, "Photographic lenses", by Neblette. 1965 edition is the best.


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## enzodm

Although I like tinkering too (not at the level of BrianV - just playing with lenses, done one from a magnifier, done a sort of tilt&shift, etc), it seems to me that the initial idea was difficult but interesting, while working on the Polaroid will give you just a sort of plastic box with a P&S inside. 
I did sort of reverse: I had a scientific Polaroid with a Tominon 105/4.5 lens, which is now one of the lenses I put sometimes on my Canon.
Anyway, if you want to reduce the crop factor (I suppose this is what you want to do with "a lens"), you have to replicate something similar to the Metabone Speedbooster.


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## Norwolf

Thanks, I will look into that


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## enzodm

Giving An Old Nikkormat A New Life As A Sony NEX-5N | DIYPhotography.net


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