# AM I BEING SCAMMED HERE?



## sinjans (Jan 6, 2010)

So here's the deal. I just sold an item on ebay. CANON EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III USM Lens +HOOD+FILTER+BAG - eBay (item 320468863458 end time Jan-06-10 08:02:58 PST)

I send the invoice to the buyer who is Italy. This is my first sale on ebay/paypal. I then get an email from paypal telling me that this payment has been received and will be held for up to 21 days until the buyer receives the product. This sounds awfully fishy. I need some wisdom here so fire away. I will post the original email later.


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## Josh66 (Jan 6, 2010)

Well, for one - I never use paypal.  It's just too easy to get ripped off with it, and their ToS is not exactly good.

Sounds fishy to me.  Sounds like he isn't going to pay you until the product is in his hands.  Will he pay you then?  Who knows...?  Will you be able to do anything about it if he doesn't pay you?  No.

edit

I would pass on that deal.


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## Josh66 (Jan 6, 2010)

Even if he did pay you, and then you shipped the item...  All he has to do is say that he never got it, and PayPal will refund his money, taking it from your account, and seizing your personal bank account if necessary.

Read the ToS.


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## TokZik (Jan 6, 2010)

never sell to italy .. i have had scammers from italy try it on me twice.


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## sinjans (Jan 6, 2010)

So how do i get out of it?


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## Josh66 (Jan 6, 2010)

sinjans said:


> So how do i get out of it?



Don't send it.

I don't know what kind of obligations you may heve agreed to by putting the item up for sale on eBay, but there has to be a way out...  Worst case, just don't send it and you might get some bad "rep points" or whatever they call it...

You may have entered into a legal agreement though, and if you have, read it - I know there is a way out buried in there somewhere.


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## TokZik (Jan 6, 2010)

use the cancelation form and just say you damaged whatever it was you were going to sell.

to find the cancel sale form just search it in the help section..

you will notice a lot of power sellers will not ship to italy because of the scammers...


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## sinjans (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks guys. Now this guys emailing me asking me to avoid customs by labling it as a gift. If anyone has gotten rid of a buyer like this in th epast i would like to know how  you did it. i know that i will never sell outside canada and the us again.


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## themedicine (Jan 6, 2010)

all i can say is good luck! there is definitely a way out though. contact ebay if it gets too weird, and id say, its gotten there with the "avoid customs" BS


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## sinjans (Jan 6, 2010)

My work email is down right now but i will post them as soon as i can. I just put in a cancel request but the buy has to agree to cancel


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## mrdemin (Jan 6, 2010)

The Powerbook Prank: He wanted a Powerbook. We gave him a P-P-P-Powerbook!


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## BAmereihn (Jan 6, 2010)

do a second chance offer to the next highest bidder also


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## Josh66 (Jan 6, 2010)

sinjans said:


> My work email is down right now but i will post them as soon as i can. I just put in a cancel request but the buy has to agree to cancel



If he doesn't agree, just say "it fell off of my 3rd floor balcony...sure you still want it?"


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## jennyjen (Jan 6, 2010)

Dont send it! youll never get your money, and the person will have a free whateve it is that you sold. Send an empty box to the $hit head!


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 6, 2010)

There is nothing that I know of saying that you have to ship before you receive payment, and this is a scam I have either seen or heard of many times.

I haven't been scammed yet, but I am very careful, and use several paragraphs of little stuff explained at the bottom of every one of my eBay listings about what I will and will not do.

Once your buyer complains to eBay or PayPal, you are screwed. Although YOU pay the fees, and you SHOULD be the customer to eBay/PayPal (same pirate ship) they will take buyers side every time I have ever heard of something like this happening.

Problem with overseas shipping is there is no credible tracking/confirmation, and when buyer claims to not have received item, they charge back against your account, almost no matter what you say, or what proof you have.

But there is nothing I know of that says you have to ship before full payment has been received by you, and their suggesting to you that you avoid customs could be construed as potentially illegal activity.

*You could also state within your eBay listing information that you will NEVER ship until YOU have received full payment for the item listed. No exceptions*.

And I state that I will not ship outside of USA without my prior written approval, then if you do, get it in black and white that they accept all responsibility for missing shipment, get them to agree in writing that they will not come back against you or give you negative feedback.

I still do ebay, some, but it is getting worse and worse for me as their rules get worse and worse. They just don't see ME, the guy who pays all the fees to them, as their customer. First, they stopped allowing seller to give buyer negative feedback, now they are requiring PayPal as payment. What if we prefer to use a USPS Money Order? eBay doesn't seem to give a damn about the people who list with them.

I use eBay less and less, and Craigslist more and more...

eBay used to be fun, until they got too big for themselves.


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## mrdemin (Jan 6, 2010)

The link I posted is of a very similar scam that happened to someone, I don't know if people arent clicking cause they think I'm spamming lol... When I came across that site on a dif forum I almost peed my pants reading it


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## dcmoody23 (Jan 6, 2010)

I avoid e-bay all together now.. I used to sell all the time, but now they take all your D*%^ money! the % of the sale they get continuously gets higher & higher.. It's ridiculous & impossible to turn a profit on..  And the amount of scams on there is extremely high.. Did you know that scammers have set up like a fake paypal look-a-like website and unless you navigate your way 360 degrees you'd never know the difference..  Using craigslist is free and you know you're dealing locally.. Plus you can reject offers or say it's sold and they'd never know if they seem fishy  

If only someone would retool that sight, it'd be heaven on the internet


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## chip (Jan 6, 2010)

sounds like a scam all the way. I would not ship until payment is received. I buy and sell a lot on Ebay but as others have pointer out, Ebay is a ripoff. My policy on Ebay is Paypal only and only ship within the US to avoid hassles.


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## sinjans (Jan 7, 2010)

Well i have learned a few lessons here already. Here is the email i received. 
NOTE: The payment has been issued and i have access to it. 

FROM BUYER

Oliviero Gobbi [tai.pan05@gmail.com]

Hello Mark,

I have paid via Paypal. Please send the object as soon as possible. And to avoid any customs, I think the best would be that you write somewhere that it is a GIFT for me and that the value is below 45 Euros. Or if you have better ideas please share.
Do not add any invoice or show that I have paid you money for it!
Please also send me the tracking number whenever you get it.

Thank you and best regards,

Oliviero Gobbi

THIS ONE FROM PAYPAL CONFIRMATION OF PAYMENT RECEIVED

Hello mark bailey,
You received a payment of $xxx.xxUSD from olivierogo (tai.pan05@gmail.com) Thanks for using PayPal. You can now ship any items. To see all the transaction details, log in to your PayPal account.
Important note: Oliviero Antonio Gobbi has provided an *unconfirmed* address. Please check the Transaction Details page for this payment to find out whether you will be covered by PayPal Seller Protection.

It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.
Seller Protection - Eligible

________________________

Now it says in paypal that i am eligible for seller protection.  Does anyone have abny confidence in the seller protection in paypal? Ebay denied my cancellation request. If i insure the item for its value can i still get screwed at the end of the day?


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## sinjans (Jan 7, 2010)

I apologize for some confusion i may have caused here. During yesterdays panic i got the above buyer confused with the buyer of my other item (from BC Canada) who has held the payment. So i have 2 situations here:

1) the gent form Italy who has submitted the payment and asked me to avoid customs.

2) a lady from BC who held my payment until good received. That one is more fishy than the first one.


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## Tighearnach (Jan 7, 2010)

Am I  correct in reading above that you have recieved an email from PAYPAL saying you recieved the funds? If thats the case then you should be able to check your account and see the moneys there. If it is then send the product. 

As for people labelling the entire nation of Italy a bunch of scamming con artists, thats ridiculous. I am not saying this is not a scam and i personally avoid ebay unless im buying from someone in my country but at the end of the day soemone has to make a leap of faith and either pay first or send goods first. 

If your not happy with the situation pull out and sell only within your country.


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## Tighearnach (Jan 7, 2010)

Nothing wrong with the customs situation. Sellers from Hong Kong always oblige by saying its a gift etc. If there is any problem it will be Italian customs witholding the product from buyer so it will be his problem to contend with.


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## Mulewings~ (Jan 7, 2010)

sinjans said:


> Well i have learned a few lessons here already. Here is the email i received.
> NOTE: The payment has been issued and i have access to it.
> 
> FROM BUYER
> ...



Well try this...email Oliviero and say *Gosh I think I have to follow the law and mark this as valued at $$$ and since it is not a GIFT, I think I cannot say that it is a GIFT.  The invoice will be sent with the package.*
Very fishy here.

I had a scammer like this who wanted to buy of all things...a donkey and our scenario went along the same lines until I insisted that purchasers come to my farm for an inspection.
All communication stopped right then.

I guess I'm old fashioned~~ sell local.


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## sinjans (Jan 7, 2010)

So the seller protection situation is the easiest route i think. I will talk to Canada Post today as well. 

The money is there, as stated earlier during my confused state of panic yesterday i confused the held payment with this buyer and gave him 2 strikes as opposed to one strike. He still gets a fishy strike. Im now more concerned with the other buyer who has held the payment. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. This is a new thing for me to be selling on Ebay so it pays to know.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 7, 2010)

Like mentioned above, if they say they made payment - then YOUR PayPal account, that you log into your own regular way (do NOT click into PayPal through any links other than eBay or your own IE or whatever you use) will either show a payment made or payment pending.

If you log into YOUR PayPal account and payment doesn't show, then it has not been made, no matter what they say.

Customs - tell the customs in Hong Kong, or Italy, or anywhere else, whatever you want to tell them, they are not likely to come gitcha, but I would be VERY careful about lying to US Customs, because they will if they choose to.

Again, add something like "Item will only be shipped when, and only when, full payment has been recieved and fully collected to your account" to all your eBay listings.

eBay does not hold payments like that, so far as I know.

We ought to publish their email addresses here, so the bots can see them, and so that EVERYONE here can send them a friendly email....

Sincerely wishing a very slow and painful death to all scammers and spammers.

What they don't realize that there is a "karma" or a big ledger sheet in the sky, or whatever you want to call it, and sooner or later what they do to others will come back to bite them in dabutt.

Just be careful.


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## CCarsonPhoto (Jan 7, 2010)

OP-

If you have to ask, then you don't need to ask. Trust your instincts.


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## mostly sunny (Jan 9, 2010)

You are NEVER to ship to an unconfirmed address-  Paypal will not protect you if you sent to unconfirmed.
I would risk the neg feedback. Refund, say thank you sorry- If he doesn't post neg just respond and say.. Buyer wanted me to commit custom fraud.

Paypal does hold fund when the person does something like an e check.  I believe the hold is 7 days


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## Antarctican (Jan 9, 2010)

^^^ I too find it suspicious that it's an unconfirmed address. Also, has anyone heard of Paypal reversing money out of one's account if the buyer claims he didn't receive the goods or something? I have a vague recollection of someone posting that they got ripped off that way...shipped the goods, the buyer denied receipt, and Paypal took the money back. I could be wrong though, so if anyone else knows, please weigh in


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## sinjans (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your insight. To add some temporary closure to this issue i have received full payment and am eligable for seller protection on paypal for the item. I have insured the item for its value and aparently will not be out of money either way. I have learned a valuable lesson here. TRUST NO ONE


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## Shelly1204 (Jan 9, 2010)

If I'm the slightest bit suspicious of a transaction on Paypal, i wait until the funds clear in my paypal account, and I immediately transfer them to my bank account, which takes 3 to 4 days. Once the money is in my personal bank account, I know paypal cannot recoup it if there are any disputes, so it's ok to ship.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 9, 2010)

If there is a payment made to your PayPal account with not yet collected funds, your PayPal account will still at least show a transaction as pending, then will change to completed when fully funded to your account and completed. Doesn't matter what they say that their account says, you refer to your acount pages. If your PayPal account does not show any kind of a transaction (either pending or completed), then there isn't one involving your account.

NO way should anyone expect you to ship anything you are selling before the funds are fully collected into your account.

I had an instance a few years ago, where an eBay customer wanted a refund. They claimed the item was damaged when they got it, but they would not send it back to me, nor would they even send photos of the damaged item. They would not even take it to their USPS to begin the process of an insurance refund until later. They sent me nasty threatening emails about what would happen to me if I didn't refund.

PayPal took their word for it, didn't even want to hear what I had to say other than answers to a short questionaire. PayPal didn't want to see the pages and pages of documentation that I had. PayPal wouldn't even allow me to talk to a human person to tell my side of the story. PayPal showed me that they didn't give a damn about my side of the issue.

Several weeks later, on their local Craigslist, there was a photo of my item, fully intact, listed for sale by them.

Both the eBay and PayPal folks are all on the same pirate ship if you ask me.

If you do have an issue with either eBay or PayPal, just try to talk to a real person customer service rep from either one.

As far as those eBay customers go, I have a friend who happens to be a USPS Inspector. I sent the customer the USPS Insurance information for when I had mailed the item to them, which they used to make an insurance claim (including the serial # of the item), for replacement of the damaged item. Then, we helped USPS Inspectors catch them selling the same item, same serial #, on their local Craigslist.

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...


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## Josh66 (Jan 9, 2010)

PatrickHMS said:


> I had an instance a few years ago, where an eBay customer wanted a refund. They claimed the item was damaged when they got it, but they would not send it back to me, nor would they even send photos of the damaged item. They would not even take it to their USPS to begin the process of an insurance refund until later. They sent me nasty threatening emails about what would happen to me if I didn't refund.
> 
> *PayPal took their word for it, didn't even want to hear what I had to say* other than answers to a short questionaire. PayPal didn't want to see the pages and pages of documentation that I had. *PayPal wouldn't even allow me to talk to a human person to tell my side of the story.* PayPal showed me that they didn't give a damn about my side of the issue.



Same thing happened to me several years ago.  I have never used PayPal since.

READ THE ToS!!!

They don't give a **** about the seller.  All the buyer has to do is say that the package never arrived, or was damaged.  PayPal will automatically refund their money, taking it out of your account.  If there are not sufficient funds in you account, they will SEIZE YOUR PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT and take the money from that.

There is nothing you can do about this.  You have already agreed to it by being a PayPal user.


Try closing your PayPal account.  Even that is hard to do.  They make sure that there is no contact information on their site, and that you will never get to talk to a real person.

edit
http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Check that site out.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 9, 2010)

Josh, I know several others who been screwed by eBay or PayPal, and the eBay PayPal people DON'T WANT to deal with you if you have a complaint.

First eBay took away sellers right to give any negative fb to a buyer, even if it was deserved. If I do sell anythng on eBay (once in awhile) I no longer give any feedback until I get some.

Then they limit your options for payment so you can't use money orders anymore.

And combined fees and costs seller pays eBay and PayPal almost makes it not worth selling there anymore.


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## Antarctican (Jan 9, 2010)

^^^ Yeah, that's the kind of thing to which I was referring in my earlier post. I'd heard Paypal just takes the buyer's word and scoops the money from the seller. Thankfully I've never experienced it myself.


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## jbylake (Jan 9, 2010)

I've never had a problem with Paypal, but have heard my share of the "nightmare's".  It's just a necessary evil, as far as I'm concerned.

J.


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## TJ K (Jan 9, 2010)

http://www.419eater.com love that site. Same thing happened to me all 4 times I tried to sell my D90 of ebay. First was nigeria then nigeria again then Italy then some other random place I can't remember. all of them were emailing me with other addresses to ship to and all that stuff. Oh I can give you 200 for shipping extra to my country. I don't really like ebay anymore but I don't have a choice when i'm going to try my camera again err.
TJ


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## jbylake (Jan 10, 2010)

TJ K said:


> Welcome to the 419 Eater love that site. Same thing happened to me all 4 times I tried to sell my D90 of ebay. First was nigeria then nigeria again then Italy then some other random place I can't remember. all of them were emailing me with other addresses to ship to and all that stuff. Oh I can give you 200 for shipping extra to my country. I don't really like ebay anymore but I don't have a choice when i'm going to try my camera again err.
> TJ


I just use the setting where you designate that you won't accept bids from.  If they send you a PM, anyway, I normally just delete them.  However, did get one from a young soldier, stationed in Germany.  Needed some parts for his Harley.  We asked for his First Sergeant's official address, and mailed them there, just to help him out.  Also, going to a military base, no extra fee's, taxes.  Plus I sold to him at "cost".  He, if he could have ever found the stuff he wanted, he'd probably would have paid 4X or better for the parts.  Oh, he paid by PayPal.  Everything worked out just fine.

I've got the "Nigeran" scam about 3 or 4 from craigslist, just minutes after posting.  I just laughed them off, and went on about my business.

J.:mrgreen:


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## mostly sunny (Jan 10, 2010)

You sent it?  = ) I am scared for you.


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## Shelly1204 (Jan 10, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> They don't give a **** about the seller.  All the buyer has to do is say that the package never arrived, or was damaged.  PayPal will automatically refund their money, taking it out of your account.  If there are not sufficient funds in you account, they will SEIZE YOUR PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT and take the money from that.



This is misleading. Just to clarify, no one can seize your bank account unless a judgment has been issued against you by a court of law. They also cannot withdraw money from your personal bank account once the transfer has cleared.  The only exceptions are if you authorized them to deduct paypal fees or payments directly from your account. They cannot withdraw money from your personal account solely for refunds. They CAN withdraw money from and seize your paypal account, so make sure your funds are transferred to your personal bank account before you ship.


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## Muschnick (Jan 10, 2010)

I have had numerous bad experiences with PayPal.  The worst being my account was frozen with 2K in it and the only transaction made was me transferring money from my personal account to my business account.  The worst part is I had to pay 2.4% to get that done!

eBay is full of scams which is too bad as it is a good forum to sell equipment.

My bad experiences have led me to create a new site RutsCameras which is an auction site just like eBay but dedicated to photography equipment.  The best part is it is FREE!  It has 10 different payment options including the ability to do an offline payment such as a local cash transaction or trade of equipment.  I just wanted to provide a forum that had the features of eBay at the price of Craigslist because I was sick of paying for something that was risky! Hopefully it is ok to mention the site as it is FREE and is not making me a penny.  If you want to know more you can PM me.


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## pcacj (Jan 27, 2010)

I sold an LCD Projector on Amazon that was in perfect condition.  The buyer claimed it was broken and worn out and filed a claim through Amazon.  Turns out they buy lots of projectors on Amazon so I am thinking they claim mine is crap and send in a piece of junk as proof.  I disputed the claim and Amazon never took the money back so I suppose Amazon decided to bite the cost and let us both win.


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## TiaS (Mar 8, 2010)

I suppose I am abit late in responding. There are ways you can get the money released. I bought a package from the US and the seller would not ship it until I gave positive feedback. The seller said that I was more than welcome to change the feedback later on, but that she needed positive to get the money released to her, upon when she would send it. Sounded off to me so I emailed paypal. Indeed, it was true. I gave the positive feedback. She got her money. I got the package at my door shortly after. And I did not know to ask for it as a gift and so when it came to my door, I had to pay taxes on it for crossing the boarder.


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## matfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

i've sold items to Italy and the buyers have been as honest as anyone else..just sayin.

the money held back by paypal till the buyer leaves feedback seems like a recent change to how ebay operates. i noticed this last year after a break of several years from selling on ebay...

EDIT: ...for newbs


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## JeffieLove (Mar 8, 2010)

So i just closed my paypal account (meant to do it weeks ago!) and it was like trying to cancel a credit card... they try to give you a million reasons to stay... Nope, sorry, hate paypal.. DONE!


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## reaganalvin (Mar 9, 2010)

It is the minimum manditory for the paypal services and this should be continued.If you are the person bought the article you need to have some security about.So this should be done.


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## sinjans (Mar 9, 2010)

UPDATE:

Since you guys revived this thread i figured i would fill you in. The buyer has received his item and has left positive feedback so i will give my own positve feedback for the Italian buyers out there. However since this sale i hav andd will only sell to the US/Canada for the sake of greif.


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## Joves (Mar 9, 2010)

JeffieLove said:


> So i just closed my paypal account (meant to do it weeks ago!) and it was like trying to cancel a credit card... they try to give you a million reasons to stay... Nope, sorry, hate paypal.. DONE!


 Smart girl. I closed both my Eghey and Paypal accounts several years ago. For the first few years like anything else it was a good thing then as they grew the got greedy and, there was no customer service anymore. I dont even look at the place anymore either. I find their business practices to to disreputable at best.


Shelly1204 said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > They don't give a **** about the seller. All the buyer has to do is say that the package never arrived, or was damaged. PayPal will automatically refund their money, taking it out of your account. If there are not sufficient funds in you account, they will SEIZE YOUR PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT and take the money from that.
> ...


 Actually at one time they did subtract from your account. The practice was stopped when they got in trouble for it. 
 Another way to get around the whole thing is to specify that the item will not be shipped until the funds have cleared Paypal and, are in you account. I would put that on your page. That should flush out most of the scammers. To me the best thing is to no deal with selling on the site at all. Just my opion.


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