# ARGH! Please help with aspect ratios and printing!



## allthingsapple (Mar 16, 2011)

My Canon T2i has an aspect ratio of 3:2 (and I am assuming this is not adjustable). I am using Photoshop Elements and printing on 8.5 X 11 paper. My borders are totally screwed up (inconsistent, uneven, too large--1 inch in some cases, 1/2 inch other times, etc).....I talked to someone at Epson who said that if my images were originally shot with a 5:4 aspect ratio, my prints would have better, more even (and smaller) borders using 8.5 X 11 paper.

Question: Is there a way to resize my images in Elements (I think it might have something to do with resetting the canvas size???) that will produce prints with better, smaller, and more even borders?

Please help-------before I throw camera, printer, and paper out the window.............


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

8.5x11=17:22. 2:3=6x9 or 8x12. Take the longest pixel edge (height) divide by 22, then multiply by 17. That's your printable width in pixels. How you scale it physically, for printing is up to you.


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## Big Mike (Mar 16, 2011)

The basic facts are that your camera shoots at a 3:2 ratio...just like every other DSLR camera, just like 35mm film....and many print/paper sizes don't match that ratio.  So your not encountering a new problem, people have been cropping their photos to get the print size they want, since the dawn of photography.

There are a few different ways to get image size that you want.  The first one is to use the crop tool in Elements.  You should be able to enter the height & width that you want.  Then when you drag the crop tool over the image, it will be constrained to the size/ratio that you entered.

Another way to do it, would be to create a new canvas that is the size (and resolution) that you want.  Then open the image, select all and copy.  Go back to your new canvas and paste the image into it.  (or do a drag & drop).  Then you can move the image around and resize if needed, until you get the crop that you want.  If you don't want white borders on the edges, you will have to crop part of the image off...that's just how it goes.  

Of course, you could stretch the image to fit...but that will also distort the image, which you probably don't want.


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## allthingsapple (Mar 16, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> The basic facts are that your camera shoots at a 3:2 ratio...just like every other DSLR camera, just like 35mm film....and many print/paper sizes don't match that ratio.  So your not encountering a new problem, people have been cropping their photos to get the print size they want, since the dawn of photography.
> 
> There are a few different ways to get image size that you want.  The first one is to use the crop tool in Elements.  You should be able to enter the height & width that you want.  Then when you drag the crop tool over the image, it will be constrained to the size/ratio that you entered.
> 
> ...



So, if I am printing on 8.5 by 11 paper, and I'd ideally like to have a  1/4 or 1/2 inch border evenly on all sides, what would I make the new  canvas size and what would I set the resolution to for a nice quality  print? Sorry, math was never my forte.........


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## allthingsapple (Mar 16, 2011)

PASM said:


> 8.5x11=17:22. 2:3=6x9 or 8x12. Take the longest pixel edge (height) divide by 22, then multiply by 17. That's your printable width in pixels. How you scale it physically, for printing is up to you.


 
PASM--I feel like you have very good info here, but with all apologies, I cannot make any sense of it. Is it possible for you to re-say this on a beginner level? My main question is what I posed back to PASM (above). Of course, maybe you're answering this and I just don't see it. Sorry for being such a dunce about this.............


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

8.5x11 with a 1/2 inch border = 8x10.5 printable area. At 300 dpi you will require an image that is 2400x3150 pixels (centered). At 150 dpi you can do it with 1200x1575 pixels.

Mike's advice is the key  once you have calculated your available pixel width.

1.take your longest edge (2:3 that's your height if its portrait or or width 3:2 if its landscape format)

2. divide this number by 22. Then mulitply that number by 17. that's your other dimension worked out.

3. Create a new blank doc in PS that's that size in pixels. 

4. Select your picture, copy it and paste it onto this new, blank (sized for 17:22) doc.

5. move it around to compose the image within this format as you wish.


Post the actual size in pixels of this doc and I can give you the maximum DPI for printing onto 8.5x11 with a 1/2" border. Without knowing it it's impossible to say print at 300dpi or 150 etc.


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## Big Mike (Mar 16, 2011)

> So, if I am printing on 8.5 by 11 paper, and I'd ideally like to have a 1/4 or 1/2 inch border evenly on all sides, what would I make the new canvas size and what would I set the resolution to for a nice quality print? Sorry, math was never my forte......


With a 1/2 inch border on all sides, you image area is 7.5" x 10".  The common print resolution is 300 pixels per inch.

So in Elements (if it's like Photoshop), click on the crop tool.  Then you should be able to enter a size and resolution.  Put in 7.5 x 10 and 300 PPI.  Then crop the image how you see fit.

Then print it and choose the option to centre the image on the paper.


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

(Windows)
Start > Programmes > Accessories > Calculator


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

Oops my bad. Thanks Mike. I'm off to bed. Too late for this


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## allthingsapple (Mar 16, 2011)

PASM said:


> 8.5x11 with a 1/2 inch border = 8x10.5 printable area. At 300 dpi you will require an image that is 2400x3150 pixels (centered). At 150 dpi you can do it with 1200x1575 pixels.
> 
> Mike's advice is the key  once you have calculated your available pixel width.
> 
> ...



1. When you say take my longest edge, do you mean of the original image? If so, my original image has a width of 3456 pixels and a height of 5184 pixels.............now I divide 5184 by 22? Then multiply by 17? So, I get 235.6 and 4005????

2. Probably not right, but I created a new blank doc using your last post info of 2400 X 3150 pixels. Then I dragged my original image onto it, but the image that moved was huge once it got there......I'm too unfamiliar with Elements to know how to move the image onto the document and have everything be the correct size relative to each other (new blank doc to dragged image). I think I need a drink.........


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

3456x5184 yep that's 3:2

So 5186 divided by 22 = 235.64

235.64  multiplied by 17 = 4006

So an image 3456x4006 is 17:22 ratio which fits exactly a paper 8.5x11" or scaled proportionately within its margins.


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

To print that image file 7.5" x 10" (i.e with a 1/2" border surround) you will need to scale resize the image file down to 2250x3000 pixels to output at 300dpi

Image Size Calculator/Convertor (image sizing calculator)


So.. paste and arrange your image so it's cropped to fit a new/blank doc of 3456x4006. Then resize this to 2250x3000. Print it at 300dpi, centered onto an 8.5"x11" paper. Voila!


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## allthingsapple (Mar 16, 2011)

UGH! I'm just not getting this. I think what I am realizing is that if I want to print my original photo with even 1/4 inch borders all the way around on an 8.5X11 piece of photo paper, it just ain't gonna work......in order to do what I want to do, I'm gonna have to crop it some way and then I lose part of the original image. 

So what do other people do whose camera shoots a 3:2 aspect ratio? Crop/resize every image post processing to fit evenly on the paper? Use different sized paper? Avoid printing all together? Deliberately shoot a bigger image than you intend to print in order to allow for loss through cropping/resizing?

I REALLY appreciate your patience and effort...truly! Trust me---it's not you, it's me.....but eventually I will figure this out............I was just trying to get some prints together for some critique this weekend and thought they would look better with all nice and even borders.........

Make mine a double martini!!


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## PASM (Mar 16, 2011)

allthingsapple said:


> I'm gonna have to crop it some way and then I lose part of the original  image.



Yes..and no. You can print a 2:3 image onto a non 2:3 paper. Just means you'll have different borders top and bottom, compared to the sides. A 2H pencil, a ruler and a craft knife..you can trim it also.



allthingsapple said:


> So what do other people do whose camera shoots a 3:2  aspect ratio? Crop/resize every image post processing to fit evenly on  the paper? Use different sized paper? Avoid printing all together?  Deliberately shoot a bigger image than you intend to print in order to  allow for loss through cropping/resizing?


 
Yes.. 5x7 isn't too much of a compromise though..or use a larger paper and have a slightly bigger border beneath than above. There are 3:2 photopaper sizes too. 10x15cm, 18x27cm, 20x30cm.


anyway..enjoy your Martini..chin chin!


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## Big Mike (Mar 17, 2011)

> in order to do what I want to do, I'm gonna have to crop it some way and then I lose part of the original image.


Yes



> So what do other people do whose camera shoots a 3:2 aspect ratio? Crop/resize every image post processing to fit evenly on the paper? Use different sized paper? Avoid printing all together? Deliberately shoot a bigger image than you intend to print in order to allow for loss through cropping/resizing?


As I mentioned above...35mm film is also a 2:3 ratio.  So probably 95% of photos taken in the 70s, 80s, 90s....was all 3:2....and yes people still made 8x10 prints, 5x7 prints etc. 

So yes, when you want to print at a different size/ratio, you will have to crop your image...meaning that you will loose some of your image.  That's the way it's always been.

And yes, some of use eventually do figure it out that if we want to make different sized prints, we leave a bit of extra 'space' in our photos to allow for that.


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## KenC (Mar 17, 2011)

Why so much concern about the borders on an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of media?  What's important is how you intend to show your work - if in a mat/frame, then the mat will be cut evenly to show the image, if electronically, then you can put an even black (or any other) border around the image.  Another concern touched on by others above, but perhaps lost in the calculations, is that if you do crop your image to get even borders on a page, then you may be presenting the image in a less than ideal aspect ratio and/or composition, which is something to avoid.  I've seen people fall into this trap when they want to use a standard size pre-cut mat or mounting board - all of their images are always cropped the same way to accommodate that, and for some of the images it is obvious that the composition is not good.


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Mar 17, 2011)

Creating a new document will NOT change the photo aspect ratio when you drag it. You have to crop the shot and throw some away. Sometimes it is very important to know your intended print size when composing your shot or atleast leave a little space around the edges always.( or simply always try to print in the camerad native aspect ratio ). When shooting pics for family members, I always ask what size frames they have. This is also why I NEVER buy 8x10 frames.


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## Big Mike (Mar 17, 2011)

> Creating a new document will NOT change the photo aspect ratio when you drag it.


It won't change the image, but it will show you the size/ratio that you want...and it allows you to move/drag/resize the image layer around on the new canvas.  The image isn't 'cropped' in the traditional sense, but whatever falls outside of the new canvas space, will be cropped when flatten and save the image.


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## allthingsapple (Mar 17, 2011)

KenC said:


> Why so much concern about the borders on an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of media? What's important is how you intend to show your work - if in a mat/frame, then the mat will be cut evenly to show the image, if electronically, then you can put an even black (or any other) border around the image. Another concern touched on by others above, but perhaps lost in the calculations, is that if you do crop your image to get even borders on a page, then you may be presenting the image in a less than ideal aspect ratio and/or composition, which is something to avoid. I've seen people fall into this trap when they want to use a standard size pre-cut mat or mounting board - all of their images are always cropped the same way to accommodate that, and for some of the images it is obvious that the composition is not good.


 
You ask a very good question Ken. Here's my answer: I have an opportunity this weekend to participate in a portfolio review. Even at my beginner level, I will be allowed to present 20-30 images and geet feedback from various curators, gallery directors, teachers, pros, etc etc. I will be presenting loose photos via a portfolio box, and all photos will have been printed by me on 8.5 X 11 paper. I want to make a good presentation and for some reason was thinking that it would look less favorable to have images with all different sized borders, ranging from small to large to even on all sides to uneven, and everything in between.

But, if I am interpreting your post correctly, it sounds like the paper itself is merely a channel for presenting the image, regardless of how much space the actual image occupies within the 8.5 X 11 paper (within reason, of course). What matters most is the image itself, and NOT necessarily altering the image in order  to fit evenly on to a piece of paper. Am I getting your point?

So if I am right, and for anyone who has ever participated in a similar review to what I'm describing, do the reviewers particularly care if  the images are all slightly different on the paper, make use of inconsistent borders, etc?

Thanks again------


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## allthingsapple (Mar 17, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> > Creating a new document will NOT change the photo aspect ratio when you drag it.
> 
> 
> It won't change the image, but it will show you the size/ratio that you want...and it allows you to move/drag/resize the image layer around on the new canvas. The image isn't 'cropped' in the traditional sense, but whatever falls outside of the new canvas space, will be cropped when flatten and save the image.



Just curious Mike....Once you drag the image on to the new canvas/document, how do you resize the image to fit within the new document? I did this last night....successfully created the new canvas, dragged my orginal image on to it, but when it copied over, about 1/8th of my image showed, as the rest of it was too blown up to fit on  to the new canvas and I couldn't figure out how to shrink the copied image down enough to fit exactly on top off the newly created canvas....make any sense?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 17, 2011)

Your new canvas has to be the same resolution as your image, which you can set when you create the new document.

Example, I hope I have this right...
* if your pixel count is based on your image*
If you create a new document at 150 resolution, and your image is at 300...your actual image is twice as large as your new canvas.
If you create a new document that is 300 resolution and your image is at 150, your image is now half the size of your new canvas.

If creating a new document defaults to 75 resolution, and your image is 300....Your image is ****ing huge!


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## allthingsapple (Mar 17, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Your new canvas has to be the same resolution as your image, which you can set when you create the new document.
> 
> Example, I hope I have this right...
> * if your pixel count is based on your image*
> ...



Ahh, this makes sense! I bet that's what I did wrong (who me? do something wrong??!!)....Will experiement when I get home tonight.......thanks for the input!


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## KmH (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe a graphic would be helpful:


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