# Small size "Darkroom"?



## tevo (Dec 5, 2012)

I am interested in starting to shoot film, as well as developing it. However, I have very little space for a 'Darkroom'. I have been told by friends that I can develop 35mm film in a relatively small container, and then simply scan the negatives and use them. Can someone point me in the right direction? I have zero experience with developing film / working with negatives / scanning negatives, and have next to no clue what I should get. I am also looking to stay as small as possible as I have very little room.


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## Light Guru (Dec 5, 2012)

tevo said:


> I am interested in starting to shoot film, as well as developing it. However, I have very little space for a 'Darkroom'. I have been told by friends that I can develop 35mm film in a relatively small container, and then simply scan the negatives and use them. Can someone point me in the right direction? I have zero experience with developing film / working with negatives / scanning negatives, and have next to no clue what I should get. I am also looking to stay as small as possible as I have very little room.



If you have zero experience I would recommend taking a class first. 

But also go over and check out the forums at APUG (Analog Photography User Group) you will find much more info there about developing film. 

http://apug.org


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## Canuk (Dec 5, 2012)

A class is not needed, maybe beneficial, but not needed. 
There are several threads on this topic in the film section of this forum. 
I recently started developing my own black and white film, trust me its not that hard to learn, but once you start can be very addicting.


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## Helen B (Dec 5, 2012)

As Canuk suggests, try looking through the film and darkroom sections of this forum then come back with your questions on what you have read. Those questions are much easier to answer than general questions, which will get general replies repeating what is already here on the forum. You could also ask the friends who have told you about film developing to show you what they do. Google searches work well. Have a look at the Ilford site: First B&W Film Dev link


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## compur (Dec 5, 2012)




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## Rick58 (Dec 5, 2012)

Nice Compur 

The only thing I would say is, I'd take a small dark closet over the bag for loading the tank, but that's just my preference.


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## KenC (Dec 5, 2012)

I vote for the closet as well.  If you sit in a dark closet for a couple of minutes before you start and you can't see any light at all, then you know it's safe.  I'm not sure how you can be certain a bag doesn't have any light leaks.


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## tevo (Dec 5, 2012)

I've looked into how the developing process works, so my questions at this point are:

What is the best option for a small developing tank? I may start shooting MF as well, but as of now I shoot 35mm.

What is the ideal temperature / time for Developer?


I don't plan on enlarging or anything, I want to develop the negatives and then scan them to be used digitally; Can someone suggest a good film scanner for a couple hundred dollars?


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## amolitor (Dec 5, 2012)

I like plastic reels. I used stainless steel for years and years, and when I finally went plastic, it was as if the clouds had parted and the angels began to sing. Adorama has a "two reels, one tank, can use it for 35mm or 120 film" kit for something like $30 which is what I use. B&H probably has something similar, as does your favorite vendor. Plastic reels need to be REALLY REALLY COMPLETELY DRY before you start loading film onto them. If you plan to develop a lot of film at one time, roll after roll, all afternoon, get good quality stainless steel reels and a stainless steel tank. Otherwise, get the plastic auto-loading reels (or whatever the call them).

68 degrees F is the standard temperature for b&w development. Color film is done hotter.


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## KenC (Dec 5, 2012)

Film used to come with a developing chart with times and temperatures.  Even if it no longer does, I'm sure the manufacturer's web site would provide one.  They usually indicate an optimum, which as Molitor says is mostly 68F, but there may be films out there that have a different one.  In any event, a degree or two one way or the other should give you good results as long as you adjust the time accordingly.


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## gsgary (Dec 5, 2012)

All your times are here B&W Film Developing Times | The Massive Dev Chart


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## Designer (Dec 5, 2012)

I was quite lucky when I did film.  My house had a fairly large closet just off the LR which I took as my "darkroom".  It had enough room to set up two enlargers, a tray table, and shelves for storage.  It wasn't really dark enough to load film, so I did that in my changing bag.  Developing and rinsing was done in the bathroom.  I did mostly 35mm, and a little bit of 4x5.


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## Rick58 (Dec 5, 2012)

Amolitor has very good advice IMO. I have stainless and plastic, but I like the plastic hands down. It's not as "cool" as stainless but for me loading 35 and 120 is a breeze.


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## smithdan (Dec 5, 2012)

Lots of great advice here.  As for scanners, just baught an  Epson V500.  Does a great job and fast too.  Sorry but don't know how to do links but Google will take you to a site showing how this one works.

Forgot !   Cost on sale $150. CAD


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## SCraig (Dec 5, 2012)

A darkroom needs to be big enough to hold all of the "Stuff" that you plan to use.  More "Stuff" = larger darkroom.  Less "Stuff" = smaller darkroom.  If you're anything like most of us, and no matter how good your intentions are, the amount of "Stuff" will grow right along with experience.

Start with the minimum and you can work out of a closet.  As your experience grows you will eventually need more space (having running water and a sink is great, having room for a dryer or screen is great, etc.) but, kind of like with money, as long as you live within your means you can get by quite well.


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## Designer (Dec 5, 2012)

I once helped a dentist build a custom darkroom in his basement.  We made a large plywood sink that was big enough to hold his trays.  Door seal to block the light.  Enlarger table and storage.


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## KmH (Dec 5, 2012)

Back in the day, I just threw a towel on the floor at the bottom of the bathroom (no window) door, and used the bathroom to develop and print.


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## tevo (Dec 5, 2012)

KmH said:


> Back in the day, I just threw a towel on the floor at the bottom of the bathroom (no window) door, and used the bathroom to develop and print.



This is likely what I will do.


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## tevo (Dec 5, 2012)

Thank you all for your advice, I now have an idea as to where I will be going next. It looks like an Epson V500 is very affordable. Does anyone have an insight on scanning negatives?


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## smithdan (Dec 6, 2012)

Scanning negs pretty straightforward.  You tube has videos that are helpful and the scanner comes with lots of info.  Start with the auto settings then like anything else try custom settings and keep notes on results.  Most important to keep notes on the film development step as well.  Must stress that all the magic of the scanner and editing won't correct a poorly exposed or developed negative.

A darkroom is more than a luxury.  It's nice to have a dedicated space for obvious reasons no matter what the pastime.  Later you may want to do some enlarging and printing but for now any totally dark space with a handy 2'x2' clear spot for the tank and a pair of scissors will do.  Practice with some scrap film with the light then go for it.  Im sure you can find someone in your area who would be happy to show you the moves


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## Rick58 (Dec 6, 2012)

tevo said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > Back in the day, I just threw a towel on the floor at the bottom of the bathroom (no window) door, and used the bathroom to develop and print.
> ...



One of my past set up's was like this accept I had the luxury of having a closet in the bathroom that was big enough for a small cart on wheels. Everything was on the cart including the enlarger. I would slide two pieces of 4x4 lumber under the cart to get it off it's wheels for stabilization. It worked ok, but I'll tell ya, once you have a dedicated darkroom, you'll never go back and you'll use it twice as often.


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## Compaq (Dec 7, 2012)

One thing about loading plastic reels. It can be the most irritating step of the process, unless you do this! 

When you've exposed your film, and start reeling it back, leave a couple of cm out of the canister. This you can use to drag the film out once in the darkroom. You cut off the end *in the light*, and get the tip onto the reel *in the light*. Then, once you switch off the light, all you basically need to do is to twist the reel and get it on. The only downside to this method is, as far as I can see, the danger of scratching the film slightly when dragging it out of the canister during reel loading. Probably "safer" to open the canister up and do it as he did in the video, but everything go so swiftly when I do what I've outlined.

Ohh, and keep your chemical closet tidy. I die a little every time I go get mine in the uni darkroom closet, as it's full of old, used chemicals that haven't been used in 5-8 years! I've cleaned much out, and still it's bad.


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## orlovphoto (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi there,

I would be happy to show you how to develop and print when I come back up to San Jose - in San Diego now.  If you follow the link in my signature you will find the Mobile Darkroom I built in a school bus - one of its aims is helping people set up darkroom spaces so they keep 'doing it the old-school way'

Follow the blog, or find Photo Palace on facebook (ooooohhh dirty word here I know, but really - I'm more used to keeping tabs on things through there, and especially when I'm on the road I might not be checking in here as often.... freaking blog to update, plans to hopefully condense and so on....)

BTW - Steel tanks are WAY better! I understand some people are not as comfortable with them because your fingers actually have to do most of the work, so if you know that you can not perform small fine tasks with your fingers go with plastic. Otherwise, if you are pretty dexterous, go with steel - they are plain and simply better.


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## bsinmich (Jan 5, 2013)

I have gotten to Like the Patterson reels.  The reels will adjust for 35mm & 120 for me.  The tank will hold 2 35s or 1 120.  Larger tanks are available for doing more at one time.  My only objection to the Patterson is the volumes of chemicals.  It is 17.5 OZ. for 2 35 rolls and the FR tank uses 16 oz for the same.  Thinking in terms of pts. qts., etc I like the 16 oz.  Even the metric litres don't divide out to 17.5 oz.  The reels are very easy to load especially someone who has diabetc neuropathy in my fingers.


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## Rick58 (Jan 5, 2013)

bsinmich said:


> I have gotten to Like the Patterson reels.  The reels will adjust for 35mm & 120 for me.  The tank will hold 2 35s or 1 120.  Larger tanks are available for doing more at one time.  My only objection to the Patterson is the volumes of chemicals.  It is 17.5 OZ. for 2 35 rolls and the FR tank uses 16 oz for the same.  Thinking in terms of pts. qts., etc I like the 16 oz.  Even the metric litres don't divide out to 17.5 oz.  The reels are very easy to load especially someone who has diabetc neuropathy in my fingers.



Good post. I always liked the Patterson tanks /reels myself. loading is very simple as long as they are dry.


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## Josh66 (Jan 5, 2013)

bsinmich said:


> My only objection to the Patterson is the volumes of chemicals.  It is 17.5 OZ. for 2 35 rolls and the FR tank uses 16 oz for the same.  Thinking in terms of pts. qts., etc I like the 16 oz.  Even the metric litres don't divide out to 17.5 oz.


The volumes on the bottom of the tank are minimums - it will hold more than that.  Just round up till it gets to an easy number to work with.  More developer in the tank never hurts anyway.

I use 600mL for two 35mm rolls, 500mL for one 120 roll, and anywhere between 300 and 600mL for one 35mm roll depending on the developer.


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## Rick58 (Jan 5, 2013)

I loaded reels with a old rolls of film and filled the tank in daylight with water. Then I poured the water into my beaker and marked  the beaker accordingly. I used a different color tape for 35mm and 120. This way I always used the same volumn of developer for consistency.


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## nycphotography (Jan 5, 2013)

KenC said:


> Film used to come with a developing chart with times and temperatures.  Even if it no longer does, I'm sure the manufacturer's web site would provide one.  They usually indicate an optimum, which as Molitor says is mostly 68F, but there may be films out there that have a different one.  In any event, a degree or two one way or the other should give you good results as long as you adjust the time accordingly.



The "developer" comes w/ a dilution x time x temp x film chart.

Generally you try to adjust dilution and time while holding temp constant.

Each developer has a different chart for each film.

B&W, targeting 68f is good, because your house is usually between 67 and 75 most of the year.

Edit:  found a copy of the Ilford charts here.


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## nycphotography (Jan 5, 2013)

Compaq said:


> One thing about loading plastic reels. It can be the most irritating step of the process, unless you do this!
> 
> When you've exposed your film, and start reeling it back, leave a couple of cm out of the canister. This you can use to drag the film out once in the darkroom. You cut off the end *in the light*, and get the tip onto the reel *in the light*. Then, once you switch off the light, all you basically need to do is to twist the reel and get it on. The only downside to this method is, as far as I can see, the danger of scratching the film slightly when dragging it out of the canister during reel loading. Probably "safer" to open the canister up and do it as he did in the video, but everything go so swiftly when I do what I've outlined.
> 
> Ohh, and keep your chemical closet tidy. I die a little every time I go get mine in the uni darkroom closet, as it's full of old, used chemicals that haven't been used in 5-8 years! I've cleaned much out, and still it's bad.



Just practice w/ a reel of unexposed film with the lights on, and closing your eyes.  Do it over and over until you can do it stone cold.  After an hour of practising, you'll never have a problem working in the dark.

Here's a tip nobody ever told me: The plastic film reels will "walk" the film on for you.  You hold one side (kinda pinching film to reel) and twist one way, then hold the other side and twist the other way, repeat, repeat, repeat.  

This way the friction of the reel works for you rather than against you, winding the film on all by itself.  It makes a big difference w/ 35mm, and a HUGE difference w/ 120/220.

God I can't believe I still remember that after 10 years of not touching film!


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## Rick58 (Jan 5, 2013)

"_Here's a tip nobody ever told me: The plastic film reels will "walk" the film on for you.  You hold one side (kinda pinching film to reel) and twist one way, then hold the other side and twist the other way, repeat, repeat, repeat_."

I'm not sure how else you would load a plastic reel without this ratching motion. :scratch:


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## nycphotography (Jan 5, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> "_Here's a tip nobody ever told me: The plastic film reels will "walk" the film on for you.  You hold one side (kinda pinching film to reel) and twist one way, then hold the other side and twist the other way, repeat, repeat, repeat_."
> 
> I'm not sure how else you would load a plastic reel without this ratching motion. :scratch:



For the longest time, I just fed the film in from the end.   Guess I was just good at pushing rope, because it took quite a while before I had the "aha" moment.

Ahh... the days before the internet when learning from books was very trial and error w/ nobody to ask.


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## Rick58 (Jan 5, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > "_Here's a tip nobody ever told me: The plastic film reels will "walk" the film on for you.  You hold one side (kinda pinching film to reel) and twist one way, then hold the other side and twist the other way, repeat, repeat, repeat_."
> ...



I had an advantage. I grew up in my dads darkroom. By that time, he had all these little bugs worked out.


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