# BEFORE You Ask "What camera?"



## Battou (Feb 14, 2008)

Many have asked the question, but how many have gotten the correct answer? What is the correct answer, does it even exist....?

The answer is yes, the correct answer does in fact exist but it differs from person to person. The correct answer can not be found by simply asking the question. You must first answer questions that only you the perspective photographer can answer. Many of these questions lead to more questions and some can not be answered until after you have a camera. All of them will determine how you proceed in the field of photography.

Below you will find the questions you should ask your self first, the possible answers and how to translate these answers. 

1-Q.
What do I know?
1-Q/Q-1
Do I know how to use what I know

1-Q/Q-2
Am I willing to learn what I don't?

2-Q.
What do I want to do with a camera?

2-A

To keep memories.
to experiment with an art form.
2-A/Q-1
what style?


Non-income use in my regular employment. (Pending employment)
to supplement my income/to be my income.
2-A/Q-2
in what field?


3-Q.
What is my time worth to me?

3-A
Now
I can wait and/or take it slowly
4-Q.
What is in the budget/can I afford it?
4-Q/Q-1
Can I afford to have it on a "now" basis?

4-Q/Q-2
Do I need to spread it out over time?

Details

1-Q, 
The first questions are grouped the way they are because one does not need to know a lot about photography to use it. There is more to photography that merely pointing a camera at something and pulling the trigger, for those who know that and are willing to learn more there is no end in learning. With the constant advancements there is always something new, and classes are always available.

For those who don't know a lot about photography they must first decide whether they need to know more or not, see question 2.
Q-2 
*A-1*, For those who want little more than tangible memories a simple Point and Shoot camera will suffice. One does not need to know all the intricacies to take these kind of pictures be they the little ones first bath or the first sun set you watched with your spouse. However the answers to 3 and 4 will determine whether digital or film is the way to go.


*A-2*, For those who wish to try the art form an SLR is the best choice. There are many artistic things that SLRs can do that Point and shoots simply can not, but this does not rule out point and shoot cameras as tools of the artistic trade, as there are some artistic facets unique to them as well. 

One must first decide whether they want to be a P-shooter artist or an SLR artist and again the answers to 3 and 4 will determine whether digital or film is the way to go. The pending answer of question one will also influence this as one can start with one and switch to the other with relative ease. The basic principals are interchangeable between the two. For those willing to learn from the ground up starting with a P&S will not be too hindering, an SLR can always be advanced to later on for furthering of the art form.

For those with a basic knowledge of a cameras workings and willing to learn more an SLR is the best choice for the afore mentioned shortcomings, however switching to P&S is slightly more difficult as one grows accustomed to having the features that P-Shooters do not and tend to over estimate the cameras capabilities (Speaking from experience).


*A-3*, There are several jobs where cameras can come into play that are far from photographer class employment such as insurance adjusters, autobody technicians, flower shops staff and so on. Photo requirements differ with these employments, so naturally the job you have and the deadlines will effect this.

Insurance adjusters and the like are generally documenting objects or damage to objects and have short deadlines. There is no need for many different aspects of photography for this. For shots like this a digital point and shoot is the only option. The ability of digital and the immediate return allows for faster processing of whatever the task at hand is to meet the deadlines.

Flower shops and the like - is more DIY product photography. More artistic freedom is required here. (see basic product photography in A-4)

Unless the camera will be provided for you see questions 3 and 4.


*A-4*, There are many different photographer class jobs that can be used to make money as well as possible sales of artistic photos. These requirements vary considerably and often require knowledge beyond that of basic photography. So first you must figure out what you want to shoot be it wild life or current events. Many of them have (what could be called) an entry level with room for advancement. Naturally this will all be biased on entry level. Results change as the ladder is climbed and experience is accumulated in the chosen field. Not all photographic jobs will be listed as many have individual branches under different names due to subtle differences including (but not limited to) subject matter.
*Journalism*-digital point and shoot will work but digital SLR is the best choice. Entry level into journalism would be ones local paper, for this deadlines are very steep needing the image from location before presses start rolling. The the added flexibility of SLRs range could save your life in dangerous situations. See questions 3 and 4 for P&S or SLR
*Wild life*-SLR is the only option. Flexibility of range well beyond that of a P&S zoom is a must. Deadlines vary but seem fairly lax pending application. Again see questions 3 and 4 for film vs.. Digital.
*Basic Portraiture*-SLR is the best choice, a point and shoot will work but one is not likely to get many shoot jobs with a tiny P&S on a tripod. Deadlines are flexible and minimal post work is needed for basic portraits, film and digital will perform equally at entry level.
*Basic Product photography*-For this a digital SLR is the best option. Pending deadline requirements will determine digital or film, both will perform admirably, but the amount of CG postwork for modern product photography lends strength of convenience to the digital.

Q-3 When we need our images and/or gear greatly influences the digital vs. film thought process.
For those who need/want it now and can afford it due to:
*Strict deadlines*-Digital SLR-Instant images, flexible range.
*Memories*-Digital P&S-Instant sharing with family
*learning Basics*-Digital-Instant images, Exif data, restrictions based _solely_ on user preferences
*Flexibility*-Film-fast SLR gear accumulation due to price and availability allows for greater range of usable equipment faster

Those willing to wait/take it slowly or can not afford the "now" luxury
*strict deadlines*-Digital P&S or preowned-Instant images at lowest possible cost
*Memories*-Film P&S-inexpencive camera, diffused price over a period of time
*Learning Advanced*-Film-grater flexibility with equipment availability, The act of documentation aids in remembering facets of photography and exposure creating habit, restrictions applied by default, added incentive of repeating mistakes gets expensive.
*Short Finances*-Film-Digital revolution has brought professional level film equipment down to consumer level prices and consumer level film products are bargain basement priced. Better and more gear for the buck.
*Flexibility*-Film-equipment availability, Prices of lenses remain stable over the years, bodies however drop dramatically. Over all if you don't like your Nikon you can switch to Canon at a decent price. One can get a body and half a dozen or more lenses at or lower than a new digital body of any major make costs.
*Media Compatibility*-Film-One who wishes to switch from one media to the other should start with film, Habits and tendencies developed in film are more accepted by digital than the other way around

Q-4, Nothing in this world is free, we all know this and naturally it effects our equipment.
*Digital Point and shoot*-consumer grade P&S cameras priced starting around $100 New, single use digitals around $11 to $20
*Film Point and shoot*-consumer grade P&S cameras priced starting around 45 to $50 new, single use 35mm point and shoot cameras are readily available at any local drug store starting around $5, (I have seen them as low as $3.)
*dSLR*-Entry level dSLRs priced starting around $500, New (Body only)-lens prices vary pending body
*SLR*-SLRs are readily available starting at around $200, New and/or refurbished (body only)-lens prices vary pending body and mount.
*Printing* Contrary to popular belief, Digital prints have a price, unless done at home for reduced quality (or at the cost of serious equipment) One will still be using (required for single use digitals) the same or similar sendout services for digital prints as they would for film processing at similar prices.

These prices are based on several searches for the various cameras and the lowest average results from several sources including but not limited to B&H and are in USD. It goes with out saying that (not including the single use cameras) all can be purchased as considerably reduced prices by buying used. Also one will generally get what they pay for, in other words you are not likely going to find professional level cameras new at these listed prices, over all average prices are generally higher.


----------



## Battou (Feb 14, 2008)

Since I breached the character limit multiple times and have run out of abridging ideas, I am sorry I can't clarify further. If there any questions as to the ideology or specifics thereof of this feel free to ask.


----------



## thekoolcody (Feb 15, 2008)

First I would go with digital, because you will end up spending more money on film, and getting it processed. you can "delete" the Photo. DSLR might be more expensive but, It is more worth it in the long run. If you are like me you dont want to spend like $600.00 on a camera. I spent around $315 on a Nice P&S, a FujiFilm S5700 for example.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0702/07022210fujis5700.asp

It is light, You can have two memory cards in at once. You can put lens on (By useing a tube adapter), You could put on an external flash. Go to the link  bellow and search ebay for lens, much cheaper i ordered got in within a few days to a week or so, depending were you live
http://search.ebay.com/fuji-s7000-l...QfsopZ3QQgbrZ1QQkeywordZfujiQ20s7000Q20lenses

any questions send me a message

-thekoolcody


----------



## photogincollege (Feb 15, 2008)

just figured id give you a bump, and a request that this be sticked, mods, mods, anyone! Great thread, hopefully this will cut down on the daily posts of this question.  Especially if it is stickied.


----------



## lifeafter2am (Feb 15, 2008)

Nice write up Battou!

thekoolcody: Money is not the only consideration when choosing between film and digital.


----------



## Battou (Feb 16, 2008)

thekoolcody, You are new, I'll go easy on ya. As you spend time here you will find I am a rather vocal film photographer 



photogincollege said:


> just figured id give you a bump, and a request that this be sticked, mods, mods, anyone! Great thread, hopefully this will cut down on the daily posts of this question.  Especially if it is stickied.



Truth be told, I would like to see it stikied, However nine times out of ten, new users with the questions on their mind upon registering register for the question and will likely miss it. Never the less I did feel it worth my time to put it down in black and white despite my knowing this.



lifeafter2am said:


> Nice write up Battou!



Thanks.


----------



## wyattsmoma (Feb 26, 2008)

Actually I'm a beginner with this exact question burning in my mind... and your post was extremely helpful in confirming... I cant afford my Camera yet lol. But really this should be stickied and hopefully some other beginners will take the time!


----------



## brileyphotog (Feb 26, 2008)

Battou, you are basically the man. I just joined this forum and the completely vague advice questions had already started grinding on my nerves


----------



## Battou (Feb 26, 2008)

brileyphotog said:


> Battou, you are basically the man. I just joined this forum and the completely vague advice questions had already started grinding on my nerves



Well, this won't stop the questions, and I know that. Before you joined we discussed ad nauseum about such questions as well as others of the like only to come to the conclusion it's impossible to stop and that participating in such discussions was a voluntary battle with the neverending supply of new users with the question. 

Answers to these questions end up being six of one and a half dozen of the other to boot. Leaving confusion to remain when they get an answer that isn't really decisive and based on the preference of the ones giving the advice.

I decided to go ahead and do this (not only here but on the site I work for Here) in an attempt to provide not only the means of helping users narrow down the the decision making processes and help those who have red it post a more thought out question or come to the answer on their own. Hopefully reducing the likely hood of taking advice and getting it only to find it's not suited to what they want and becoming disenchanted with photography as a whole.



I could have gone on for days about what I posted up there, however during the process of abridging some two hundred plus words out of the post, lost my train of thought and ran out of time. I know I wanted to bring up the aspect of the commonality of photography classes requiring Film SLRs along with a handful of other things but I can't for the life of me think of what they are at this moment. That is part of the purpose of the second post, It serves as not only a place holder for additions when need be but also to ask what else is there that I am missing.


----------



## gendarmee (Feb 27, 2008)

:camera:      
Nice write up here.
Make it sticky?:thumbup:


----------



## mrodgers (Feb 27, 2008)

The only issue I have with this, Battou, is I don't see you differentiate between a "point and shoot" and an "advance point and shoot" I guess I'll call it, like mine.  It is my 2nd pet peeve of this forum.  Everyone only assumes dSLR or Point and Shoot, with dSLR being the one and only choice.  When discussed, the "photography community" here (and elsewhere) talks of Point and Shoot not only of being vastly inferior, but incapable of doing what a dSLR can do as well.

The only difference between a dSLR and some of the better non-dSLR cameras are the quality due to sensor size and the _range_ of settings available.  The same settings are available and some of the non-dSLR cameras are quite capable of fantastic photos with DOF or stop motion capabilities.  The term "point and shoot" needs to be defined just as it sound, capable of only "pointing and shooting" without the capabilities of setting changes such as you have in manual mode.

My Fuji 2650 is a point and shoot.  It only has automatic mode, a set aperture and ISO with variable shutter speed set by the camera only.  My Fuji S700 has complete manual mode with whitebalance, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO settings, everything that a dSLR has.  That is not the definition of "point and shoot".  I am only limited in the range I can set those items compared to a dSLR.


----------



## Battou (Feb 27, 2008)

mrodgers said:


> The only issue I have with this, Battou, is I don't see you differentiate between a "point and shoot" and an "advance point and shoot" I guess I'll call it, like mine.  It is my 2nd pet peeve of this forum.  Everyone only assumes dSLR or Point and Shoot, with dSLR being the one and only choice.  When discussed, the "photography community" here (and elsewhere) talks of Point and Shoot not only of being vastly inferior, but incapable of doing what a dSLR can do as well.
> 
> The only difference between a dSLR and some of the better non-dSLR cameras are the quality due to sensor size and the _range_ of settings available.  The same settings are available and some of the non-dSLR cameras are quite capable of fantastic photos with DOF or stop motion capabilities.  The term "point and shoot" needs to be defined just as it sound, capable of only "pointing and shooting" without the capabilities of setting changes such as you have in manual mode.
> 
> My Fuji 2650 is a point and shoot.  It only has automatic mode, a set aperture and ISO with variable shutter speed set by the camera only.  My Fuji S700 has complete manual mode with whitebalance, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO settings, everything that a dSLR has.  That is not the definition of "point and shoot".  I am only limited in the range I can set those items compared to a dSLR.



Thank you for bringing that up, I am aware of advanced Point and shoot cameras in comparison to true P&S, However I would not begin to know how to incorporate them as their own entity. My Sure shot and Yashica are true form P&S cameras wile my Kodak C-series would fall under the advanced bracket. However such Point and shoot cameras are growing more prevalent and dominate. My C-Series was literally bottom of the line consumer grade equipment when I bought it, but yet I have some limited manual WB, ISO, and shutter speed control, however this is with out a doubt a far cry from what your S700 has. It's due to this inconsistency that I would not know how to bring in the aspect of advanced P-Shooters and the growing prevalence of them lead me to believe that what is now an advanced point and shoot will be a standard point and shoot before long. 

Chances are likely that anyone walking in to a store looking for a dP&S will get something more advanced than what we are accustomed to as P&S. Point and shoot cameras are evolving. That is why it is difficult to differentiate them.

As it stands your idea of True P&S differ from mine, as mine are fixed Aperture and focal length with shutter speed variation controlled by camera only where as your Fuji 2650 gives you limited control over focal length. 

Again I thank you for bringing that up. That information will prove useful to those who find the P&S to be what they want and/or need.


----------



## Harmony (Mar 26, 2008)

Before you ask, "What camera?", we ask that you read around or search the forums FIRST. This post is also designed to help you decide/push you on your way to your first DSLR.

There are some common misconceptions about DSLRs:
1. SLRs make good photos. 
This is incorrect. It is the knowledge behind the lens that makes the photo.
2. More megapixels makes better photos. 
More megapixels only up the quality of the photos, it doesn't automatically make aestetically pleasing photos.

If you want a camera where the pictures come out pretty much done, "point and shoots" or "compacts" are probably for you. Most P&S cameras shoot in JPEG mode, which means the photos are ready right when they come out of the camera. If you wish to have the option of interchangable lenses or RAW shooting (which is more for those who wish to post-process photos) then a DSLR is for you. 

There is also the option of film SLRs.

Before you buy a DSLR, the best idea is to go in store and try them out. Some people prefer one brand to the other because of the feel. There are also less well-known brands that are cheaper because you aren't paying for the brand name. Go into the store to try them out, but there are many reputable online sources, such as B&H Photo and Cameta Camera which you can order from. 

However, there are also different "classes" of DSLRs. Some people wish to shoot mainly fast action. The higher end cameras often offer more frames-per-second. Different sensors also play a role; there are many different variables to consider. The best way is to read review after review after review.

The following is a brief list of reviews for DSLR cameras.

"Beginner" DSLRs:
Canon Rebel XT
Nikon D40
Nikon D40X
Nikon D60
Pentax K100D
Nikon D40/40X/60 Discussion/Disclaimer

"Serious Beginner" DSLRs:
Nikon D80
Canon Rebel XTi
Canon Rebel XSi
Pentax K200D
Sony A300

"Don't Want to Upgrade" DSLRs:
Canon EOS 40D
Nikon D200
Nikon D300 
Sony A700

"Holy Crap I Really Want Those But I'll Have to Sell My Car and Ride Bikes Everywhere" DSLRs:
Nikon D3
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III




If anyone disagrees or feels I should change something, speak up.

If anyone has a camera to add to the list, speak up.

Mods, please sticky this.


----------



## ScottS (Mar 26, 2008)

Your forgot the "holy crap i really want one of those, but ill have to sell my car and ride my bike everywhere" 

Nikon D3
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III


----------



## Harmony (Mar 26, 2008)

Well, now that Battou's and my post have been merged, this thread is officially sticky material. 

GREAT write up, Battou.


----------



## Mav (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm going to put this in my sig links.  I think I'll clear out the stuff on the bottom or just trim this down to one link.  Nice write-ups!


----------



## Battou (Apr 16, 2008)

Thanks for the additions


Thanks for the Sig time Mav


----------



## RedFlash (Aug 22, 2010)

Hello,
I'm into Motorcycle and Super Bike photography (Noob @ it as i currently use sony digital camera :lmao I just wanted to know your DSLR suggestion ideal for my field. P.S I'll be using an DSLR for the first time.


----------



## masong (Aug 22, 2010)

I think the most valuable question is that "how much is your budget?". I said this because even all of your answers are going to the another but it is not within your budget, you'll not have any options but to go with which is within your budget.


----------



## RedFlash (Aug 23, 2010)

Budget ? I'm ready to spend 500-600$ on the DSLR.


----------



## Village Idiot (Aug 23, 2010)

You're definitely biased towards film.



Battou said:


> Q-3 When we need our images and/or gear greatly influences the digital vs. film thought process.
> 
> For those who need/want it now and can afford it due to:
> *Flexibility*-Film-fast SLR gear accumulation due to price and availability allows for greater range of usable equipment faster






You can purchase a cheap DSLR and some cheap lenses. The biggest cost difference would be the body, but then you pretty much have to have a computer for both, with a way to get the film to the PC. Most places that do print media do it all via computers. You can't show your work over the internet, e-mail to people, etc... without a computer. You also need darkroom equipment if you're doing film...unless you're sending it off for processing.

And quality lenses are going to be expensive no matter what you do with.

And if it's a need it now situation, you're going to be able to get it much quicker with digital.



Battou said:


> Those willing to wait/take it slowly or can not afford the "now" luxury
> *Memories*-Film P&S-inexpencive camera, diffused price over a period of time


 
For the price you can get digital P&S, it's almost a no brainer. 

I'm not sure what it cost to get a roll of film developed anymore, but say it's $3.00. It would take 66ish rolls of film to eqaul a $200 camera, and that's not including the price of the film P&S. The digital P&S will have a ton of features that the film camera doesn't, and they upload to your computer so you can send them all over the world for your relatives to see. After that diffused cost, then film starts getting more expensive. Oh yeah, that wasn't including the price of film to start with.

Plus, you don't have to worry about whether or not a shot turns out, you can see it instantly.



Battou said:


> *Learning Advanced*-Film-grater flexibility with equipment availability, The act of documentation aids in remembering facets of photography and exposure creating habit, restrictions applied by default, added incentive of repeating mistakes gets expensive.


 
There are plenty of amazing photographers out there that started on digital. Some people learn by doing and seeing the results right there. Repeating expensive mistakes can lead to frustration and can cause people to hate photography. It really depends on that type of person and what they want to learn. Saying a person should use film if they want to take it slow and learn advanced photography is just illogical.



Battou said:


> *Short Finances*-Film-Digital revolution has brought professional level film equipment down to consumer level prices and consumer level film products are bargain basement priced. Better and more gear for the buck.


 
Digital photography has become amazingly cheap. Although, more expensive than film, the options for cheap DSLR bodies and lenses put this in a lot of people's reach, rather than having to buying film, pay for processing, or pay for dark room equipment and supplies.



Battou said:


> *Flexibility*-Film-equipment availability, Prices of lenses remain stable over the years, bodies however drop dramatically. Over all if you don't like your Nikon you can switch to Canon at a decent price. One can get a body and half a dozen or more lenses at or lower than a new digital body of any major make costs.


 
My problem is that besides the lenses, film bodies are pretty much all the same compared to DSLR bodies. The features in a DSLR body are what make the brands so different. Calling it flexibility to be able to cheaply switch from one film system to the next without really gaining or losing anything doesn't sound like flexibility to me.



Battou said:


> *Media Compatibility*-Film-One who wishes to switch from one media to the other should start with film, Habits and tendencies developed in film are more accepted by digital than the other way around


 
But a lot of media outlets and uses today don't do film. 

Film is dying. It'll evetually go the way of the dinosaur. It's not there yeat and sure, it can be a good learning tool, but a lot of your "reasons to choose film over digital" are because of your bias.


----------



## Village Idiot (Jul 25, 2011)

Over 3 years old and in dire need of an update. Does anyone ever check the stickies and the threads linked up top or do they just not care about it?

Ever noob should buy a film camera!!!! YAY!!!!


----------



## KmH (Jul 25, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Does anyone ever check the stickies and the threads linked up top or do they just not care about it?


Few ever see them.

It's ironic as hell too because to do decent or good photography you have to pay attention to all lot of details in the camera's viewfinder.


----------

