# Dealing with the illegal...



## BrokenRecords (Aug 27, 2012)

I know this is a touchy topic but how many of you have or have  considered reporting any non tax paying photographers? I have a previous  client who has begun her own business. We dont live in the same  location anymore so I would not consider it a competition thing but I  see this person bringing in a lot of money and is nowhere near legal.
 Do you report or not report?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 27, 2012)

Don't they have a finders fee for  turning people in?


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## Ernicus (Aug 27, 2012)

Why would you concern yourself for another person who does or does not pay their taxes?  How do you really know they don't unless they tell you of course.  Ultimately my mind keeps saying "who cares?"  I don't really think that is something I would ever concern myself with...especially to the point of actually reporting someone.

Just my thoughts.


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## Steve5D (Aug 27, 2012)

Is this a suspicion of yours, or do you have actual evidence? Because, unless you want to be viewed as a photographic Harry Reid, it would probably be a good idea to have actual proof that she's not set up properly.

Also, I would take into consideration whether I'd ever worked "off the books". I _have _so, for me, it could be construed as being hypocritical...


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## BrokenRecords (Aug 27, 2012)

I know because it is public domain. You can search for business licenses in any state.
I've never reported anyone, but it is just frustrating I guess when you see somebody charging money to all these clients but could care less about running a true business and following any legal requirements.


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## BrokenRecords (Aug 27, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Is this a suspicion of yours, or do you have actual evidence? Because, unless you want to be viewed as a photographic Harry Reid, it would probably be a good idea to have actual proof that she's not set up properly.
> 
> Also, I would take into consideration whether I'd ever worked "off the books". I _have _so, for me, it could be construed as being hypocritical...



I took photographs for people, but never charged until I got my license. I get what you're saying though. I'm not trying to cause chaos...which is why I've never reported anyone. I just relocated though and heard about people getting caught without licenses and it got me wondering what would make somebody actually turn another photographer in. Truthfully, I don't think I'd ever have the balls to do so.


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## Ernicus (Aug 27, 2012)

You are actually technically allowed to "run a business" without reporting revenue.  I had a talk with a guy from the SBA about such a thing a few years back.  He sold the theory as a person selling cookies.  How do you know you can even make a business unless you make and sell them to see if there is demand and if your product is even marketable.  Same goes for any type of business.  You can sell your services and get away with it leagally...for a while.  In time, you'll have to make yourself into a real business to avoid hassle.  I forget the magic number, but until you actually generate X amount of dollars, the IRS could really care less about your pennies anyway.  And in the grand scheme of things...that's all it really is is pennies.

Steve made a good point that I was thinking about and forgot to mention.  How many of us have done side jobs or "off the books" work.  I know I have.  So...yeah...let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


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## Jaemie (Aug 27, 2012)

I wouldn't even _consider_ reporting someone for such a thing.


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## pixmedic (Aug 27, 2012)

another questions is...are  you NEVER going to do any business where you make money but don't report it? And never have?
it isnt just about having the business license, or insurance, or a registered name. its really about whether or not you report and pay taxes on ALL the income. from that perspective, can  you justify reporting someone if you've done it? even once?  And if  you take an under the table deal would you be upset if someone reported you? I wouldn't bother. I would focus on your own business and practices and not on others. The people that don't report their income are rolling the dice anyway.


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## Trever1t (Aug 27, 2012)

I hate to say this but...wishing ill on others to improve your position isn't good karma 

I know way too many people who are busy busy busy and have no license ... more power to them. AM I jealous, heck yeah but I'm not about to hurt them because they're so fortunate.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 27, 2012)

Its your duty as an American to report tax evasion!!!

If you don't, you're not a real American!


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## Trever1t (Aug 27, 2012)

only if they make in excess of $2000


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## mjhoward (Aug 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> I forget the magic number, but until you actually generate X amount of dollars, the IRS could really care less about your pennies anyway.



Or, if you'd rather go by facts, legally ANY additional income must be reported.  Sure it may not have to be reported as a 'business', but it still must be represented in your personal return.

Reporting Miscellaneous Income


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## Ernicus (Aug 27, 2012)

mjhoward said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > I forget the magic number, but until you actually generate X amount of dollars, the IRS could really care less about your pennies anyway.
> ...



was talking business income, not personal.  apples and oranges.


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## KmH (Aug 27, 2012)

Many who try to fly under the radar get reported by unhappy, dissatisfied clients, rather than by competitors wanting to put them out of business.

Quite a few also make some simple mistake that brings them to the attention of the tax people. The tax people also have ways to ferret out those that need to be looked at closer, because things don't quite add up like they should.

Add in all those that have an illegal business because they don't know how to account for or effectively manage the money coming in and going out. Often those folks aren't actually making any money and the well soon runs dry, they wind up in court, and the tax people find out that way.

Essentially, all you have to do is bide your time, and it will work itself out.


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## mjhoward (Aug 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> mjhoward said:
> 
> 
> > Ernicus said:
> ...



What?  Everything you described in your previous post was describing how to "run a business" without an actual business entity... Which would be as an individual making additional income.  It becomes more evident that was what you meant when you later went on to say... "in time...you'll have to make _yourself_ into a real business". What's apples and oranges about that?




Ernicus said:


> You are actually technically allowed to "run a business" without reporting revenue. I had a talk with a guy from the SBA about such a thing a few years back. He sold the theory as a person selling cookies. How do you know you can even make a business unless you make and sell them to see if there is demand and if your product is even marketable. Same goes for any type of business. You can sell your services and get away with it leagally...for a while. In time, you'll have to make yourself into a real business to avoid hassle. I forget the magic number, but until you actually generate X amount of dollars, the IRS could really care less about your pennies anyway. And in the grand scheme of things...that's all it really is is pennies.


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## Ernicus (Aug 27, 2012)

bored?


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## skieur (Sep 3, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Its your duty as an American to report tax evasion!!!
> 
> If you don't, you're not a real American!



 I assume you are kidding!

skieur


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## Superfitz (Sep 3, 2012)

skieur said:
			
		

> I assume you are kidding!
> 
> skieur



There are two things he never jokes about...jewelry and taxes


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## JAC526 (Sep 3, 2012)

No one likes a nark.  Period.

Mind your own ****ing business.


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## PhotoWrangler (Sep 3, 2012)

People should learn To mind their own business.


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## MLeeK (Sep 3, 2012)

I am more of a help them out instead of hurt them kind of person. Good Karma; what comes around goes around and all of that. I can't imagine stabbing someone just because. The thought might come, but I'd have to say no.


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## rexbobcat (Sep 3, 2012)

mjhoward said:
			
		

> Or, if you'd rather go by facts, legally ANY additional income must be reported.  Sure it may not have to be reported as a 'business', but it still must be represented in your personal return.
> 
> Reporting Miscellaneous Income



Not if you get paid in goats and chickens!
;D


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## 2WheelPhoto (Sep 3, 2012)

The government needs just one more snitch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





This person must really be eating your lunch in the marketplace for you to consider such an action.


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## Tee (Sep 3, 2012)

If all the illegal photographers got reported, Best Buy and FB would go out of business.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Sep 3, 2012)

Tee said:


> If all the illegal photographers got reported, Best Buy and FB would go out of business.



That would be saddening!!!


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## 2WheelPhoto (Sep 3, 2012)

Clark123Le said:


> it would probably be a good idea to have actual proof that she's not set up properly.



the gubment don't care if snitches are right or wrong anyway, they'll investigate reports heh


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## Bynx (Sep 3, 2012)

When it comes to taxes its a private matter between the individual and the government. Everyone should just mind their own business and let the government at least work to collect the money it so richly doesnt deserve.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 3, 2012)

So, is all snitching wrong? Or just some of it?

Should we always mind our own business in regards other people's wrong doing? 

Could we start apply this idea around here? 
You know, stop reporting posts, cuz that's snitching.
Stop commenting on the way other people comment, and mind your own business.
Stop telling people they aren't ready for business cards, shouldn't be shooting a wedding with a kit lens, that they should register their business, that they should carry liability insurance.

Or are there certain things we should snitch about, and should be mindful of? Where is the line drawn?


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## 2WheelPhoto (Sep 3, 2012)

hmmm I never said it was "wrong", I said the* gubment *needs one more snitch anyway =)


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## Trever1t (Sep 3, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> So, is all snitching wrong? Or just some of it?
> 
> Should we always mind our own business in regards other people's wrong doing?
> 
> ...



A good set of questions and examples but no, to answer your question, this site operates on another set of rules


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## rexbobcat (Sep 3, 2012)

Well, since apparently there can be no grey area and there either has to be a definite, universal line or there has to not be a line, we should probably stop discussing it since the whole point is moot.

Unless someone is omnipotent and can tell us where this damn line is.


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## Bynx (Sep 3, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> So, is all snitching wrong? Or just some of it?
> 
> Should we always mind our own business in regards other people's wrong doing?
> 
> ...



This thread isnt about snitching on every scenario you want to come up with. Its about snitching on someone to the government for not declaring income. That seems pretty clear enough. Now if someone you know doesnt declare their income who does that hurt exactly? At the worst its probably some kid over seas somewhere who wont become collateral damage because the government couldnt afford that one extra bomb. Other than that nothing gets hurt. Now if you snitch on that person you hurt him. Why snitch? Its done out of spite and jealousy. If someone is willing to take on the government and not pay taxes chancing the repercussions that the spiteful government will take then just dont interfere. Its not government of, by and for the people. Its government greed vs. the people. You had to work to earn your money, so let the government work at collecting its money.


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## amolitor (Sep 4, 2012)

It doesn't sound to me like there is one shred of evidence that the target isn't paying taxes.

The fact that the OP went to the trouble of searching for a business license does suggest that there's a grudge in play here, though.

Bitter Jeweler: The line is a little blurry, but it's pretty clear. When there's clear evidence of wrongdoing, and no larger ethical issues appear to contraindicate, you should snitch. In this case there's no evidence whatsoever of wrongdoing.


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## gsgary (Sep 4, 2012)

BrokenRecords said:
			
		

> I know because it is public domain. You can search for business licenses in any state.
> I've never reported anyone, but it is just frustrating I guess when you see somebody charging money to all these clients but could care less about running a true business and following any legal requirements.



You must have a sad life if this is on your mind, get a life


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## Psytrox (Sep 4, 2012)

Its a difficult subject. But look at it at a different perspective. Two equally good photographers, same prices, same number of customers&#8230; etc.
One pays taxes, the other one doesn&#8217;t.
I don&#8217;t know what the taxes are in your state/country, but for arguments sake, lets say 33% (cause its an easy number to work with ). 
Lets say they both earn 30 000 USD a year, don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s considered a lot for a working professional photographer or not.
Photographer 1 has to pay 10 000 USD in tax
Photographer 2 doesn&#8217;t.
Photographer 1 has an estimate annual income of about 20 000 USD, whereas photographer 2 has 30 000.

You may argue the whole &#8220;fair enough it&#8217;s just one person doing it&#8221;, &#8220;stick it to the man&#8221;, &#8220;this guy has ballzz of steel!!&#8221; and I&#8217;m sure you can think of a few yourself.
10 000 USD per year, over say 5 years (50 000 USD), I think you can buy a house for that in the US? If not, you&#8217;re at least well on your way.
But, I bet you a pound to a pinch of **** that photographer 2 is going to claim all the benefits he can from the government if he becomes too ill to work/unemployed, health benefits (depending on your country), doll, salary, and all the other financial aids that photographer 1 has been paying taxes for.

So snitch or not&#8230; Technically, you&#8217;re looking at someone stealing&#8230; I can accept looking at a homeless person stealing bread from Wallmart, but I&#8217;d have more problems watching some &#8220;well off&#8221; person stealing because he can get away with it&#8230;
Myself, I probably wouldn&#8217;t report it, but I would in no way look down at anyone that does.


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## PhotoWrangler (Sep 4, 2012)

gsgary said:


> You must have a sad life...





Or at least a failing business if you have enough time to worry about the business practices of others.


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## Bynx (Sep 4, 2012)

If someone risks the wrath of not paying taxes, would you call that stealing? What about working hard 40+ hours a week. The more hours you work the more taxes you pay. Isnt that stealing? Trying to get along in life and putting up with rush hour traffic, the pressures of competition and the job itself, the actual costs of earning money, and then giving more than half of that to an organization that treats it as their due. In Canada after working from January 1 until June 11 every cent made goes to the government. From June 11 until December 31 we get to keep what we earn. Why doesnt the government just get a job? They could earn a living off the weaknesses of people by running lotteries, selling booze, cigarettes and even control prostitution. They could control resources such as electricity, oil and gas. But no, instead they just sit on their @ss with their hand out demanding the money that people work so hard for.


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## pixmedic (Sep 4, 2012)

Why worry about non-tax paying photographers? and if  you are, why stop there?  If you are targeting craigslist and FB photogs for illegal business practices, you are, at that point, morally obligated to hunt down other craigslist and FB businesses you believe are illegal. how about illegal immigrants?
People working "under the table"? The  list goes on and on. I think, here in America, we should start at the top. Lawmakers passing laws on healthcare and pensions and social security that they are except from.  Our system of government and its level of corruption is so much more a problem here than ANY amount of craigslist or FB businesses that aren't paying their taxes. If you are REALLY concerned about making this a better place...start at the top, and work your way down to the illegal photographers.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Sep 4, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> Why worry about non-tax paying photographers? and if  you are, why stop there?  If you are targeting craigslist and FB photogs for illegal business practices, you are, at that point, morally obligated to hunt down other craigslist and FB businesses you believe are illegal. how about illegal immigrants?
> People working "under the table"? The  list goes on and on. I think, here in America, we should start at the top. Lawmakers passing laws on healthcare and pensions and social security that they are except from.  Our system of government and its level of corruption is so much more a problem here than ANY amount of craigslist or FB businesses that aren't paying their taxes. If you are REALLY concerned about making this a better place...start at the top, and work your way down to the illegal photographers.



Topic is her competition and her prior client not paying and she is contemplating a snitch ploy


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## Overread (Sep 4, 2012)

And I think we've said all that needs to be said on this topic matter. Locking before we get carried away with name calling and flinging accusations at each other.


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