# I need some honest opinions please



## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

This is for my photography class, and I'd like some feedback please. This shooting assignment is based on Design Elements, Surreal/Dream-like, and Documentary/Photojournalism. I need five images that work together as a theme with one from each of the categories listed. These are my first two. How is the composition in these photos? I shot about three rolls of film for this project at an abandoned hotel in California City. I'm planning on going to Bombay Beach on Friday to shoot more. Just wondering if this is good, or if maybe I should keep shooting? Any info helps! Thanks

Matt


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## fjrabon (Nov 27, 2012)

well, your pictures of your pictures are out of focus, which makes it hard to gauge too much.

from what I can tell;

1) it's a picture of graffiti with harsh light.  That's all it is.  There aren't really any compositional elements to it, other than being a picture of graffiti.

2) You have a chain link fence, harsh light and a sign dead center 2/3rds the way up.  And some vague buildings in teh background.  Again there isn't much to this compositionally.  

It's hard to have composition when your pictures aren't really of anything.  99% of non-abstract composition is based on the visual elements' relationship to the subject.  These pictures don't really do anything, and thus don't really have a composition.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks Fjrabon. So what would you suggest? Say for example, if I was retaking the first shot, would moving in to fill the frame make that picture better, or more interesting?


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## fjrabon (Nov 27, 2012)

ziggy84 said:
			
		

> Thanks Fjrabon. So what would you suggest? Say for example, if I was retaking the first shot, would moving in to fill the frame make that picture better, or more interesting?



I don't know that it would be better, though perhaps. Moving closer might get it to qualify as documentary. 

When taking an image, you have to ask yourself "what am I trying to convey?"  It's only after you address that question that composition makes any real sense, as composition is a means for helping convey ideas via visual images. 

What were you trying to convey in these pictures?  Think about that before you worry about camera angles, lighting, processing or anything else. A picture of nothing will always be a picture of nothing, no matter what you do with your camera and computer.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Nov 27, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> well, your pictures of your pictures are out of focus, which makes it hard to gauge too much.



Exactly what I was thinking. There is an added hurdle for criticism if we can't see the image clearly.


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## timor (Nov 27, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> I shot about three rolls of film for this project at an abandoned hotel in California City. I'm planning on going to Bombay Beach on Friday to shoot more. Just wondering if this is good, or if maybe I should keep shooting? Any info helps! Thanks
> 
> Matt


Why don't you make a contact sheets and show us all frames ?


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

> well, your pictures of your pictures are out of focus, which makes it hard to gauge too much.





> Exactly what I was thinking. There is an added hurdle for criticism if we can't see the image clearly.



Ya, It's an 8mp camera phone that I used to take the pictures of the pictures with. I tried to take another set, but it comes out the same.

So with composition, when you say what are you trying to convey. You lost me. I know what it means, like, why am I taking this picture? I take the shots cause I think they look cool, but usually when I develop the film it doesn't really turn out that way. The idea of it being a good picture is there, but then again, I don't know if it will turn out to be good. What am I missing?


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

I just want to be as prepared as I can be for this Friday when I take a trip out to Bombay Beach. Thanks for the help


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

[/QUOTE]Why don't you make a contact sheets and show us all frames ?[/QUOTE]


Hey Timor. Thanks for the help.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

I have another roll, but didn't make a contact sheet for it yet. What is it I can learn from this shoot?


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## fjrabon (Nov 27, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> > well, your pictures of your pictures are out of focus, which makes it hard to gauge too much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because it looks cool isn't something you try to convey.  Looking cool is a result of a good picture.  Looking cool isn't, of itself, a good picture.  Ask yourself "what is this a picture of?"  The answer doesn't have to be a thing in particular, it can be a feeling an abstract idea or even just color contrasts, or any of a million things, but that has question to have an answer.  "looking cool" isn't an answer.  You have to be able to identify what about it you thought made it look cool, then you can try to figure out how to replicate that in your picture, or, if you're good (or lucky) accentuate it.

What about those scenes made you think they looked cool?  If you can't answer that question, you need to figure that out first, then you can figure out how you should photograph it.


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## fjrabon (Nov 27, 2012)

Maybe what I'm trying to get across will be made better with an example:




DSC_4643 by franklinrabon, on Flickr

Here's a picture I just made a couple hours ago.  What is this a picture of?  One answer is 'a computer, a computer speaker and a headphone tube amplifier' but that wouldn't be a good answer, that's not something to convey.  Well it is, but this picture does a poor job of conveying those things.  

What I was trying to convey is a sort of digital v. analog idea.  The idea of more modern technology 'towering over' older technology.  Further aiding the effect was the color.  The more modern technology, the apple computer, emits a clinical sort of bluish glow that it casts onto the speaker.  The older analog technology emits an orange glow that it casts all around.  The speaker sort of serves as a dividing line that isn't very clearly on either 'side', hence it's central placement.  The apple logo is sort of 'looking down' from above.  the tube is sort of vaguely 'looking up' and you can even see the oblique reflection of the apple logo on the tube.  

The thought I wanted to convey then suggests the composition, and it suggests how to recompose and improve the shot as well (this was mostly just the first shot, and I'm sort of playing around with the concept in my head before I really make another try at a more 'final' shot).

My point is that your photo has to have substance.  It has to be about 'something' other than just looking cool.  It doesn't have to be a story, though it can, it doesn't have to be an object, though it can, it just has to be SOMETHING.  Then you can from that starting point figure out how you want to compose your photograph in order to bring that out in a way you want.


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## timor (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks for contacts. You shot a lot of staircases, but there are some frames, which put together, just may create a story of "abandonment", if that is your intention. It just may that happened, that you went into that hotel without a clear clue what do you want to extract from that location. Maybe that needs to be define first. Also for your trip to Bombay Beach.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Maybe what I'm trying to get across will be made better with an example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, you explained it much better than my own photography instructor. I left still scratching my head like, wtf?  I was feeling like he made me even worse off then if I didn't talk to him about it. I wouldn't even say he tried to explain it. I like how you made something so simple like a computer, speaker, and a tube amp look so cool and deep. Personally coming from a non-art background your picture and explanation really helps me out. I appreciate you doing that. Really do. See, I had this impression that explaining what a picture is about was just what's in front of your eyes. Graffiti and a busted up wall. Not really thinking in abstract point of view. I'm interested in how your final shot comes out as well.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 27, 2012)

timor said:


> Thanks for contacts. You shot a lot of staircases, but there are some frames, which put together, just may create a story of "abandonment", if that is your intention. It just may that happened, that you went into that hotel without a clear clue what do you want to extract from that location. Maybe that needs to be define first. Also for your trip to Bombay Beach.



No thank you for the help. I appreciate it. That was my intentions on the story. Abandonment. I did however, go into it just shooting. For me, composition just went out the door. I tried to get some help from my instructor to better explain it to me, but his style doesn't really help me much. As I told Fjrabon, I personally do not come from an artistic background. So this whole abstract way of seeing things, etc. is all very new for me. The way my instructor was explaining it to me, he might as well have been speaking German. He actually made it worst on me. I noticed that. haha I didn't even realize I shot so many pictures of the staircase. Out of these 72 shots, I only like three of them. I don't know if you can really tell, but the first contact sheet, bottom right hand corner. I like it. There were dead leaves covering the ground and this empty rusty can there sitting off to the lower right hand side with the empty pool in the background. I know you can't really see it, but what do you think? 

I find myself drawn to urban decay/abandoned, so that's where my idea came up for this shoot. Have you ever seen Dennis Maitland's work? I like his style, he uses abandoned/dilapidated buildings in Detroit


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## timor (Nov 28, 2012)

Never seen work of Dennis Maitland until now. Very interesting. However I don't know if you can use his style for your assignment, he very often creates compositions and it looks, like he is using complex light set-ups and actors. For now I don't understand his conjunction of depletion and characters from "Alice in Wonderland". In short, I think you should not worry so much about composition, but more about the message. If it is 5 pics, then there is a story to tell and that must be clear. I would start with pic of the street sign, first seems to be good, then three interior pics and the last should be some sort of a conclusion, like in any reportage.


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## fjrabon (Nov 28, 2012)

alright, abandonment/dilapidation is something to sort of work with to start.  It's more of a theme than a subject, but it's somewhere to go from.

First, get closer.  dilipidation is bet shown with sharp details.  Your first shot has some empty space that is sort of 'clean' on the left wall.  Get lower.  The stains on the ground look promising to give a dirty foreground feel.  Use a wide angle (if you have one), perspective distortion is good for a feel like that.  Then, find key elements in the graffiti that draw your interest and think about balancing them in your image.  YOu don't want too much going on in one corner of your image and nothing in another part.  Think about what interests you in that frame, and how it makes your eyes travel across the viewfinder.  That's how you want to 'direct traffic' with your composition.  Finally, watch for any elements that slip into your frame that undermine your vision, ie distracting elements, and then frame your shot so they're not in it.


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## KenC (Nov 28, 2012)

You've had some really good comments and suggestions.  I'll just throw a couple of things on the heap.  One is that the most common problem with the images of inexperienced photographers is that they are not close enough.  Although it's kind of hard for me to see the contact sheets, a lot of the shots are from pretty far away, with some "tunnel" shots of hallways and stairs in which there is a lot of foreground and just receding lines in the background.  Find details that tell the story and get closer.  You could also try combining in the same frame something destroyed and something surprisingly intact (if there is anything like that).  The idea someone posted about an intro shot establishing where you are, followed by detail shots, is a good one.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 28, 2012)

timor said:


> Never seen work of Dennis Maitland until now. Very interesting. However I don't know if you can use his style for your assignment, he very often creates compositions and it looks, like he is using complex light set-ups and actors. For now I don't understand his conjunction of depletion and characters from "Alice in Wonderland". In short, I think you should not worry so much about composition, but more about the message. If it is 5 pics, then there is a story to tell and that must be clear. I would start with pic of the street sign, first seems to be good, then three interior pics and the last should be some sort of a conclusion, like in any reportage.



Oh I'm not trying to use his style, I just like it. The rabbits have to do with the Chinese zodiac - Year of the Rabbit. From January 30th 11' to February 6 12' was the year of the Metal Hare. Next year of the Rabbit is like 2023 or somewhere around there; but where they fit in with the decay, I have no idea. I'm guessing he took the shots during that time frame of the Zodiac. Okay Timor, so your saying the Lake Shore Inn. sign is a good starting point? Also the graffiti picture is good? This is good. It's giving me ideas for Salton Sea on Friday.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 28, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> alright, abandonment/dilapidation is something to sort of work with to start.  It's more of a theme than a subject, but it's somewhere to go from.
> 
> First, get closer.  dilipidation is bet shown with sharp details.  Your first shot has some empty space that is sort of 'clean' on the left wall.  Get lower.  The stains on the ground look promising to give a dirty foreground feel.  Use a wide angle (if you have one), perspective distortion is good for a feel like that.  Then, find key elements in the graffiti that draw your interest and think about balancing them in your image.  YOu don't want too much going on in one corner of your image and nothing in another part.  Think about what interests you in that frame, and how it makes your eyes travel across the viewfinder.  That's how you want to 'direct traffic' with your composition.  Finally, watch for any elements that slip into your frame that undermine your vision, ie distracting elements, and then frame your shot so they're not in it.



Well I've been shooting with a Cannon Elan7 with a 28mm-105mm zoom lens, but I'm thinking of renting a Cannon AE-1. I can rent it with the standard 50mm lens and one additional lens with it. What do you think? I was also experimenting with yellow #8, red #25, and polarizer filters on the Elan7, should I rent them as well? 

Interesting. So when you say you don't want much going on in one end, and nothing on another, I guess you can say that about the floor right? It's just the concrete floor. Then you have the broken wall and graffiti surrounding the plain floor. So for example, the graffiti they stood out to me was the anarchy symbol. How do I balance that in the picture with all the destruction right below it? Doesn't all that destruction distract?


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## ziggy84 (Nov 28, 2012)

KenC said:


> You've had some really good comments and suggestions.  I'll just throw a couple of things on the heap.  One is that the most common problem with the images of inexperienced photographers is that they are not close enough.  Although it's kind of hard for me to see the contact sheets, a lot of the shots are from pretty far away, with some "tunnel" shots of hallways and stairs in which there is a lot of foreground and just receding lines in the background.  Find details that tell the story and get closer.  You could also try combining in the same frame something destroyed and something surprisingly intact (if there is anything like that).  The idea someone posted about an intro shot establishing where you are, followed by detail shots, is a good one.



Hey KenC Thanks for the information. So like what Fjrabon said about the graffiti picture, get closer and lower? See I was thinking the hallway could be a use of line and form, but it's really not? Just receding lines to nowhere? Although, I can't even use the shots anyways, they are too dark, but just for learning purposes. 
What do you guys think of these pictures? These were taken with my camera phone, but I took the same shots with the 35mm. Well almost. Would these be considered good shots? Or not really? In the second picture on the 35mm, I got low and right next to the hand rail on the right side, and used it to "guide' up to the door. See, I've been taking this photo class for the semester, and yet I still don't really have a grasp on composition. I already told my instructor I come from a non-art background, but I'm willing to learn. I don't know if he just brushed me off, or whatever. In my projects, he never mentions what I can do to be a better photographer. I mean the info I've already received from you guys has made me see differently then anything I learned this whole semester! That's pretty sad on his part.


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## timor (Nov 28, 2012)

Sign will describe what this is about. Don't rent AE-1 unless you will get some ultra wide with it, otherwise Elan7 should do just fine. (It is Canon, not Cannon )


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## ziggy84 (Nov 28, 2012)

timor said:


> Sign will describe what this is about. Don't rent AE-1 unless you will get some ultra wide with it, otherwise Elan7 should do just fine. (It is Canon, not Cannon )



Okay. Have you ever used color filters before? I've been messing around with yellow 8, and red 25's, just wondering if I should continue using them, or just go with the UV or polarizer. Canon. Got it. haha


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## timor (Nov 28, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> Okay. Have you ever used color filters before?


 Always when shooting landscape or just outdoor. Indoor they make sens if you have to separate colors, which otherwise would present the same value on the print.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 28, 2012)

timor said:


> ziggy84 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay. Have you ever used color filters before?
> ...



Okay, thanks Timor.


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## KenC (Nov 29, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> Hey KenC Thanks for the information. So like what Fjrabon said about the graffiti picture, get closer and lower? See I was thinking the hallway could be a use of line and form, but it's really not? Just receding lines to nowhere? Although, I can't even use the shots anyways, they are too dark, but just for learning purposes. View attachment 26943View attachment 26944What do you guys think of these pictures? These were taken with my camera phone, but I took the same shots with the 35mm. Well almost. Would these be considered good shots? Or not really? In the second picture on the 35mm, I got low and right next to the hand rail on the right side, and used it to "guide' up to the door. See, I've been taking this photo class for the semester, and yet I still don't really have a grasp on composition. I already told my instructor I come from a non-art background, but I'm willing to learn. I don't know if he just brushed me off, or whatever. In my projects, he never mentions what I can do to be a better photographer. I mean the info I've already received from you guys has made me see differently then anything I learned this whole semester! That's pretty sad on his part.



I like the shot on the right, although the exposure is tricky because the dynamic range between highlights and shadows.  An SLR would do better, but you still might have to underexpose and just give up on some shadow detail.  (Later, you might investigate dual-raw processing or HDR)  The approach is good though.  I would still crop a bit more, but that's sort of subjective.  In the first, yeah it is sort of "receding lines to nowhere."  These sometimes work better thrown way off-center so the subject really is one wall, and the other surfaces just act as framing for that.

I agree your instructor should be doing more for you.  Doesn't he do critique sessions where he and the others in the class critique everyone's photos?  This is a great way to learn.  You can get some of that on here, but it is much better when people are trapped in a room with your stuff and have nothing else to do.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 29, 2012)

KenC said:


> ziggy84 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey KenC Thanks for the information. So like what Fjrabon said about the graffiti picture, get closer and lower? See I was thinking the hallway could be a use of line and form, but it's really not? Just receding lines to nowhere? Although, I can't even use the shots anyways, they are too dark, but just for learning purposes. View attachment 26943View attachment 26944What do you guys think of these pictures? These were taken with my camera phone, but I took the same shots with the 35mm. Well almost. Would these be considered good shots? Or not really? In the second picture on the 35mm, I got low and right next to the hand rail on the right side, and used it to "guide' up to the door. See, I've been taking this photo class for the semester, and yet I still don't really have a grasp on composition. I already told my instructor I come from a non-art background, but I'm willing to learn. I don't know if he just brushed me off, or whatever. In my projects, he never mentions what I can do to be a better photographer. I mean the info I've already received from you guys has made me see differently then anything I learned this whole semester! That's pretty sad on his part.
> ...



Well the shot on the right is edited as well. I used the effect "high contrast." But it is very difficult to expose. I enlarged it a few days ago, but there ended up being some kind of white scratch on it so I tossed it. It didn't look like a rope, more like a scratch. I had to do some dodging and burning for it to come out good. For me to get the photo to "look" like the one edited, what can I do? I used a #2 contrast filter on the enlarger. I also made test strips for #3, and #4, but it doesn't "give" the same look as the one edited with my phone. 

Ya, I mean I could see if it's someone who didn't take time to ask the instructor for help. I came to him at the start. Oh well what can I do? I'm not going to stress over it. I'll just learn it from what I can get from you guys and just put in work I guess. "Your first 10,000 shots are your worst," right? Can't wait to buy a digital camera! I mean I enjoy film, but digital is so convenient.


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## timor (Nov 29, 2012)

ziggy84 said:


> "Your first 10,000 shots are your worst," right?  Can't wait to buy a digital camera! I mean I enjoy film, but digital is  so convenient.


Film or digital, composition problems will be the  same and notion, that wit digi you can have a faster learning curve is a  myth. Actually the best tool for learning photography is a view camera  and digital view cameras would be not available for many, many years to  come, (cost of 4x5 sensor is around $200 K). But off course digital cuts  out the darkroom and that is a convenience. I reached my "first 10.000  shots" (on film, no digi) long time ago, but composition is still a  challenge. And that is, what we discuss on this part of forum mostly.  Talk to us, we will talk to you and something will happen, compo is  mostly some rules, personal taste and purpose of given expression. Not  everyone gonna like your creations, but you have to know why you did it  the way you did.


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## ziggy84 (Nov 29, 2012)

timor said:


> ziggy84 said:
> 
> 
> > "Your first 10,000 shots are your worst," right?  Can't wait to buy a digital camera! I mean I enjoy film, but digital is  so convenient.
> ...



Ya, thanks Timor. I'm looking forward to going to Salton Sea tomorrow and seeing what I come up with.


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## timor (Nov 29, 2012)

Good luck.


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## charlieclimber (Nov 29, 2012)

moving closer to one of the walls will make you shot more "Dramatic".


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## ziggy84 (Nov 29, 2012)

charlieclimber said:


> moving closer to one of the walls will make you shot more "Dramatic".



On the graffiti picture or the hallway?


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