# Not quite 4,000...



## manaheim (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm almost at 4,000 posts here.  

I don't quite think I'm going to make it.

I see new people posting images that I swear have gotten worse, and other new people jumping on and saying how great they are.  I sit and wonder... how do I handle this?  I'd like to help, but offering critique now not only kinda picks apart the OP, but also throws anyone under the bus who has commented positively up to that point... seems anything I do will get me yelled at... maybe best to move on.

I see the same thread posted for the 1000th time, I think "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we could sticky these occasionally?  Oh no, the mods won't... I suppose I could try to reply for the 1000th time, but no one will really listen anyway I suppose"... maybe best to move on.

I see some of the oldsters feel inclined to hide and lurk vs. posting for fear of being yelled at for them daring to post images in whatever segment they choose... I could note to them again that I think they're great and I wish they'd post more, but then I wonder... am I one of the ones who contributed to their unwillingness to post?  Maybe best to move on.

I get outright harassed and even get a nasty private message from someone who has been on the forum a while... someone who I had respected and I actually thought we were friendly.  I could attempt to dig into this, but most attempts seem to be rebuked.  Maybe best to move on.

I don't get this place anymore.  I briefly felt like I was part of a community here, and now I just feel like I'm an unwanted guest.  I'm not trying to whine about it... I'm just kinda baffled and I guess one of my last attempts at holding onto what I thought was here is to post yet ANOTHER pointless thread on how TPF has gone to hell in a handbasket and how I'm just not sure if it's TPF or me or both.

I'll most likely end my time here, but it's kinda sad.


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## mooimeisie (Jun 22, 2009)

As someone who is new to photography, I have looked forward to people like you, who offer honest critique.  I feel it's downright rude for someone to ask for critique then get upset when experienced photographers give it.  Sometimes some of us newbies do post awful pictures that we think are good, because I think we get a little excited and act before we think.  It's through taking evening classes, along with the valuable feedback from this forum, that I learn.  I will never be one of the great photographers of the world, but I hope to be good enough to make my own coffee table book for my house.

Please feel free to give me your honest C&C on any of my photos.  During the summer I'm sure I can get you up to the 4000.


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## a.rilley (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm with mooimeisie on that one. I'm not exactly the best photographer around, and I look forward to having my work critiqued by the experienced community. That way I can improve my pictures and eventually become one of the "experienced" members of the world that is photography. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. 

Whoever asks for critique and then complains when you give them a negative response, they clearly don't take criticism well. All you can really say to them is that it's constructive criticism/a learning experience in which they can better their photos. Because you're not going to lie to them in your critique just to make them feel good about themselves right? That could be the worst thing to do. Besides, if they can't handle negative criticism then they shouldn't be asking for it at all.  

Just.. don't let it get to you. Some things just can't be helped.


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## rock1424 (Jun 23, 2009)

manaheim said:


> I'm almost at 4,000 posts here.
> 
> I don't quite think I'm going to make it.


 
I have been lurking on this site for the last 4 or 5 months, attempting to learn as much as I can. (I just got my first DSLR last Christmas, a present from lovely wife, and have fallen in love with photography as a result.) In that short time I have seen too many talented, gifted photographers that contributed so much to this site just disappear. I would assume their vanishing was a result of the same feelings you are currently experiencing. I would selfishly hope that you stick around, as I am always eager to read your input and value your opinions. Even though I haven't offered any of my own images for your feedback, I have learned so much from your offerings of constructive criticisms to others. I would also greatly miss seeing your photographs on here.


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## rufus5150 (Jun 23, 2009)

manaheim said:


> I see new people posting images that I swear have gotten worse, and other new people jumping on and saying how great they are.  I sit and wonder... how do I handle this?  I'd like to help, but offering critique now not only kinda picks apart the OP, but also throws anyone under the bus who has commented positively up to that point... seems anything I do will get me yelled at... maybe best to move on.


 
Comment on the photo. I've seen your critiques... you have the ability to critique the photo without criticizing the OP, and if people are on the attaboy bandwagon for a photo in dire need of some _real_ feedback, don't feel bad about throwing them under the bus. They're not helping the OP _at all_. If people end up being rude to you about that, make use of the ignore feature. I've found it very pleasant here since I've started using it.



manaheim said:


> I see the same thread posted for the 1000th time, I think "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we could sticky these occasionally?  Oh no, the mods won't... I suppose I could try to reply for the 1000th time, but no one will really listen anyway I suppose"... maybe best to move on.



I think that's a serious 'pass the torch' issue. If we were to sticky everything that gets asked twice a day, the front page of each forum would be sticky. The ones I get tired of, I simply skip now. There's enough who have the answer who will answer until they are tired, and by then, a new batch will have arrived.



manaheim said:


> I see some of the oldsters feel inclined to hide and lurk vs. posting for fear of being yelled at for them daring to post images in whatever segment they choose... I could note to them again that I think they're great and I wish they'd post more, but then I wonder... am I one of the ones who contributed to their unwillingness to post?  Maybe best to move on.



Chances are, you're probably not a contributor to their unwillingness. TPF has this thing... if you're in the upper 10% of images (the 'amazing bunch') you get feedback. If you're in the bottom 10% or always posting in the beginners forum, you get feedback. A lot of the oldersters (I'm not sure if I count, but I get along better with most of the older posters) just get that pin drop effect. If they're anything like me, I've just tired of that, and I've tired of posting on other things for a variety of reasons. I've become increasingly passive. Also, the forum change and no classic theme... ugh, blech. It's not the layout, I was used to the old icons!



manaheim said:


> I get outright harassed and even get a nasty private message from someone who has been on the forum a while... someone who I had respected and I actually thought we were friendly.  I could attempt to dig into this, but most attempts seem to be rebuked.  Maybe best to move on.



That sucks, but again, I'd just use the ignore button. I like that button. It's my favorite one, I think.



manaheim said:


> I don't get this place anymore.  I briefly felt like I was part of a community here, and now I just feel like I'm an unwanted guest.  ...



I hear ya loud and clear.



manaheim said:


> I'll most likely end my time here, but it's kinda sad.



It would be.


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## Garbz (Jun 23, 2009)

I thought it was me getting grumpy but it seems like more and more my advice which you are free to take or not results in an argument. I'm trying to get around this by outright not posting in "what is my next lens" or "what DSLR should I get" threads. But I hear you. This place has changed quite a bit since I started here as a newbie a few years ago.

It's sad since there is such an amazing pool of talent and knowhow to draw on for aid here; it's even more of a shame that the respectable oldies are the ones giving up rather than the new people who ask for advice and then argue when you don't tell them what they want to here (you know who you are).


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## JerryPH (Jun 23, 2009)

Chris, you know that *I* know where you are coming from... I feel exactly in the same position.

My solution was to use the iggy list more liberally, post a LOT less than I normally would and avoid the beginner's gallery like the plague.  Also, I am starting to visit here less and less.

That helped for a while... but now it is starting to infect the "Beyond the Basics" section and just slowly pushing me off the edge of the cliff as well.

I've not looked and I think that I am a bit beyond 5000 posts... wow, I sometimes think I post too much.


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## bdavis (Jun 23, 2009)

All the "What camera should I get" threads make me sick. They are EVERYWHERE. C'mon people read reviews on the internet, thats what its for. Why would you want someone to tell you what to buy? Go try it for yourself!

If someone told you to go buy a car, would you? Probably not. If you were in the market for a new car, you would have an eye on a few you liked, compare them, try them out, and eventually select one you thought would work for you. Same thing with the camera...


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## Antarctican (Jun 23, 2009)

Please don't go. The forum would be a lesser place without the type of critique you are able to give. Try to develop a thick skin about the people who can't take honest critique well...it's a photography forum after all, and the way for posters to improve is to receive honest feedback from viewers, both the good and the bad.  Your contributions are appreciated and would be missed if you go.


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## kundalini (Jun 23, 2009)

Okay, just a few ramblings from me......  

First off, I have a penchant for Mature Sharp Cheddar.   

I have only been here, hmmm looks like two years next month, so I consider myself a youngster to TPF.  Yes, changes for the better have not been part of the process, but there are a few that I get along with here and some of them have served less time than me.

Throttle back in whatever way fits.  I declared not to post anymore images except in Boxer Turtle or Fight Club and have almost held to that.  I fell into that "pin drop" category that Rufus mentioned.  However, I do sneak in a few as examples or gags in threads others have started.

Drink tequila.  It's much more fun to piss off people when Jose is talking to ya.

Anyone that doesn't get along with a man who likes milk with his monkey, can just run off in short jerky motions IMO.

Honesty is the best policy, but the Back button has saved me a few times.

Dude... burn through the thread posting until you reach the 5K club.  We get to go on field trips, receive a dandy secret decoder ring and (as a male) your penis will enlarge.

Drink tequila.  It's much more fun to piss off people when Jose is talking to ya.

When some little whippersnapper cops a 'tude with your comments, engage brain and wit to let them hang themselves.  (remember toofpaste  )

Sorry, gotta go for now.... lunch is over and the work won't stop coming in.  Stick around for a while longer.


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 23, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Okay, just a few ramblings from me......
> 
> First off, I have a penchant for Mature Sharp Cheddar.
> 
> ...



It's a philosophy I could run with...


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## NateS (Jun 23, 2009)

I feel pretty much the same.  I've only been here about 2 years I think and even I can tell how much it's changed.  

The sad part is that all of the good to extremely good aren't posting much at all anymore.  First example that comes to mind is Doenoe.  I noticed yesterday that I haven't seen anything from him in awhile....guess what....he hasn't posted any pictures since about March or something.  It sucks because not only are we overrun with noobs asking the same question that is literally in a thread 2 posts down from theirs, but the good members aren't posting much anymore at all.

Then let's look at the caliber of pictures being posted in the forum now.  Few of the good members on here post photos very often if at all....even like Kundalini said about not posting except for the Turtle Boxer, etc.. This means I spend all my time looking at new photos and most of them aren't great.  It's good to have new members posting and wanting to learn, but when 80-90% of the forum is consumed with these sub-par photos (at best) it just get's tiring.  The fact that they get their panties all twisted when you try to offer some advice makes it even worse.

Oh, and it ticks me off to no end when a new thread is started asking if someone should get a D40 or XS to which I reply (1st reply) with..."do a search, been answered 1000 times"......followed by 3 pages of posts with people answering the question.  STOP ANSWERING AND TELL THEM TO SEARCH....then maybe we'll see less of them or they will die out quickly instead of continuing for 3 weeks.


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## Chiller (Jun 23, 2009)

I wont come here to post images, or participate in the reindeer games anymore, but do stop in to say hi to friends that still stalk this place or  I might read the locked threads for a laugh. Sadly, it looks like my days are over here too, as I have realized this is not the place is was and has changed for the worse. 
I have found better learning tools with less attitude(they are called Google, Youtube(yeah...they have tutorials), and even those old fashioned things called...."books")...and for you Nintendo generation...they are made of paper and some even have pictures. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Over the last little bit, I realized that forums are nothing more then a disfuntional social place for people who .....oh never mind...that will just offend somebody. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Get out....see the sun....take some photos and enjoy your damn life, cause it is too freekin short. There is a world out there, that is more fun, and much more enjoyable then sitting on here....specially this forum. :lmao::lmao: And you will find....you will be much more happier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Alright...lunch is over, back to my crypt for a nap.


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## EhJsNe (Jun 23, 2009)

Ive been here for around 7 months....and Ive noticed how much it has changed! 

Ive gotton sick of the beginners forum becoming "Ahy do my pictures suck" and "How can I make my pictures better" forum. Only a few of the posts are actual questions. (not saying my pictures are any better...I do have some crappy shots....but Ill admit it and I have a good handfull of cool shots. And then a small handful of Amazing shots...and 2 shots that I would have made into a poster and go on my wall)

THen I get annoyed because I can only intelegently respond to a few of the pots in the "Beyond the Basics" becaues most of those are about flashes and wahtnot.....

And by then Im to sick of the site to go onto the discussions...and then rest of the form.

There should be a sub-forum in the beginners forum FOR NOTHING BUT C&C. It would save me the time of sorting out the C&C...
And if I do decide to respond to a C&C thread...I cant be blunt about things...I have to be nice and beat around the bush....

I did however find it fun to go into the beginners forum and check to see how many of the pictures were taken in AUTO or a scene mode  Its quite amazing how many there really is!


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## NateS (Jun 23, 2009)

Chiller said:


> I wont come here to post images, or participate in the reindeer games anymore, but do stop in to say hi to friends that still stalk this place or  I might read the locked threads for a laugh. Sadly, it looks like my days are over here too, as I have realized this is not the place is was and has changed for the worse.
> I have found better learning tools with less attitude(they are called Google, Youtube(yeah...they have tutorials), and even those old fashioned things called...."books")...and for you Nintendo generation...they are made of paper and some even have pictures.
> 
> 
> ...



See...these are the ones that make me sad.  You're photos are always amazing and stunning to no end.  I hate that they won't be posted here anymore.

I'm far from the best photographer, but I have probably learned all I can from this forum since most of the OG members don't post anymore.....I'm still here from now, but I have a feeling I won't be far behind the others.


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 23, 2009)

Chris - I am nowhere near 4000 posts, but I can sympathize with much of what you said, in fact I was just saying many of these same things to my husband this morning. I come in here at times all hell bent that the attitudes are not going to bother me and I'll post like crazy for a day or two and then it all just falls apart. I find so many awful photos posted by people that I'd like to C&C on, but as you said, so many other admitted noobs have already posted and said how great that awful shot is, so how do you tactfully followup on that with an "Uh, I'm sorry, but your photo really sucks", so I leave without posting anything at all. Other times I'd like to say something positive about photos someone posts, but the opposite falls true - so many noobs have posted that the photos are bad that I feel uncomfortable saying that I like it - so I don't post at all. And all the threads about "what camera should I buy?" sometimes I'd like to post to these in all caps and say "Get whatever f**king one you want as long as you like it!" but thats not in my nature so I breathe a deep sigh and just leave without posting at all.

I miss the way TPF used to be a couple years back, when people here were more interested in really learning and helping others rather than bickering. When people gave tactful and helpful C&C and it was received as such, not attacked by the person who orignally asked for it. I'm getting quickly annoyed at the people who don't even take the time to read HOW to post photos and post numerous links to another site or have the photos thumbnail size with a message to cllick for larger photos. I don't bother with those either, this poor old soul still has dial up so much of the time I can't access those links anyway unless I feel like waiting for 20 minutes for them to load!

 I know many blame the Mods and admin for the problems here, but in many cases its just lifes fast paced way of doing things these days "instant everything" so no one bothers to take the time to look for directions. Too bad there isn't a practical way to make some of the sticky threads a must read to all new users before they are allowed to make a real post. 

I don't often post photos here anymore - the reason? Because the members whose opinions and C&C I respected, have either left or only pop in on ocassion. I hope you don't leave TPF, it would be a shame to see someone else who falls ito the afore mentioned group -fall through the cracks and vanish.


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 23, 2009)

Chiller said:


> I have found better learning tools with less attitude(they are called Google, Youtube(yeah...they have tutorials), and even those old fashioned things called...."books")...and for you Nintendo generation...they are made of paper and some even have pictures.


 
:thumbup::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: :thumbup:


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## MBasile (Jun 23, 2009)

Perhaps I'm not a "roll over and die" kind of guy, but I would suggest sticking it out and posting your opinions/critiques on photos. If you are saddened by the turn the forum is taking, make an effort to prevent the change.

That being said, I think what you're witnessing is a side effect of a growing "community" online. The more people there are, the less concentration of talent and less likely people will get along do to the vast differences in opinion.

Also, I think another problem is (and this will most likely offend someone that takes it personally) people get a DSLR and think that having a camera makes them a photographer. That's where the attitude comes from. Unfortunately there attitude and arrogance overshadows the laid back demeanor of those wishing to quietly learn.


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## blash (Jun 23, 2009)

Dagwood56 said:


> 1) I miss the way TPF used to be a couple years back, when people here were more interested in really learning and helping others rather than bickering. When people gave tactful and helpful C&C and it was received as such, not attacked by the person who orignally asked for it.
> 
> 2) I'm getting quickly annoyed at the people who don't even take the time to read HOW to post photos and post numerous links to another site or have the photos thumbnail size with a message to cllick for larger photos.
> 
> ...



Couldn't put it that much better myself. I would've posted those four, but you beat me to the punch.

I agree with #3 on a very strong level. All it would take is a couple stickied posts, some very clear bold text on the screen before user registration, and liberal deletion of posts that keep asking the same questions. If the forum needs more mods, I'm sure they could recruit some from among the members with the most seniority. But right now, the forums are the equivalent of an anarchic wasteland - I'm sorry to say it, but it's true and it needs to be said.

I posted some images a while back when I first joined, as a complete newb who didn't know WHAT he was doing, and never got more than a few responses. This was my first post, ever, asking about non-color related issues:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ery/145835-israel-summer-2008-cc-welcome.html

And this was my Freudian defense mechanism for underexposure once I switched to film:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...xplorations-contrast-portrait-c-c-please.html

And then there was my complete IDIOCY that showed a complete lack of understanding of flash photography before I picked up my SB-800 and a little more mileage under my belt.
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ographers-why-you-leave-camera-flash-off.html

My God there was so much newbiness in that last one. "I tend to think that shots where you catch another flash are really cool-- the light in the second one is much more interesting." Really??? At least Drewski put a *little* wisdom in that thread.

So for better or for worse, I got a lot more feedback in my university photography classes than I did here. Since I wasn't getting feedback, and I wasn't shooting digital anymore, and I don't own a film scanner so it's not a simple thing for me to get my film online - what's the point of posting?

Now I just lurk in the Photo Discussions and Equipment sections. It's still a fun waste of time to see what other people think about this and that and to troll "FILM FILM FILM" whenever I can :mrgreen:

I'll be sticking around a while longer, now that I understand a little bit more about what makes a good photo (my parents' scrapbook wasn't exactly a shining example), I can start to really learn by doing and living. Thanks guys!


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## Onion (Jun 23, 2009)

Is this the drama support forum? Maybe there should be a sticky for whinning.


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## NateS (Jun 23, 2009)

Onion said:


> Is this the drama support forum? Maybe there should be a sticky for whinning.



If there was, it would get overrun by noobs asking the proper way to whine or if one type of whining is superior to another.


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## Onion (Jun 23, 2009)

NateS said:


> Onion said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the drama support forum? Maybe there should be a sticky for whinning.
> ...


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 23, 2009)

There are some interesting and valid concerns being expressed in this thread. I can't offer an instant remedy nor can I make everything go back to the way it was, or at least how it was perceived to be.

For myself, the general tone of the forum has changed since I joined TPF and probably more so since its ownership changed hands. Much of that is due to the turnover of the regular membership - different people, different approaches, different concerns and different attitudes towards other participants.

One thing I have noticed is that, as moderators, we get considerably fewer reports of bad behaviour than was the case say 12 months ago, but from what I'm seeing that doesn't mean that behaviour has improved somehow, quite the contrary. The only area we reliably get reports on is where the genuine out and out spammer is concerned - that is magnitudes less of a problem than it was around 18 months back when we were really struggling to keep it at bay, particularly the porn.

Some things remain as true now as they did back then though:


The moderators are a voluntary part-time appointment
We don't read every post, so unless a problem is reported to us, there is a good chance things will escalate to an unsavoury point before we pick up on it
Every member of the forum can contribute to what they wish it to be -  read the rules, report the crap and hit ignore for those you don't see eye to eye with.
I'll keep reading this thread, so if you have any views you want to share, please feel free to post them, or PM myself or one of the other Mods or Admins.


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## c.cloudwalker (Jun 23, 2009)

4000, WOW!

Been here about a week and don't think I'll make it past 250 posts!

When I came across this forum I thought I could help some youngsters (in photo, not in age) with my almost 35 years of experience and I probably can. Some of the people here seem more than willing to learn. But there are also way too may people posting snapshots who feel limited by their already pretty high-end equipment :lmao:

Not that it's going to make you feel any better but it is the same everywhere. I'm also a music lover and recording engineer (don't ask) and, I tried to help people in Audio oriented forums. But I quickly got tired of the "how come my $150.00 WalMart Surround system doesn't sound like the movie theater" type of questions.

I could tell you a few pages worth of horror stories about my Audio life but who cares?

Move on, friend. Move on to a pro forum. And if you feel stupid there, good. It means you know that you don't know much. But way more important, it means you are willing to learn.


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## manaheim (Jun 23, 2009)

Onion said:


> Is this the drama support forum? Maybe there should be a sticky for whinning.


 
I wondered how long it would take for someone to do that, and there you have it... a prime example.

First off, I want to say that I really appreciate some of the thoughtful posts and reflections, as well as the comments of support and appreciation.  I'd like to think this wasn't really about me and more about the forums, but I suppose it was really about both, and for what it's worth these comments did make me feel a bit better at least about my involvement here.

That being said, I do think we have a problem here, and the best I can come up with for a solution is that we need stronger structure and moderation than we have.

When I was on a long time ago, I recall there were various more strictly controlled areas... there was a noobs section where it was pretty much no holds barred... say whatever, be as new as you  like, no one minds...

But then there were the more serious areas, where really you were not supposed to go unless you knew what the hell you were doing... and if you dared, you would either get your  post moved or you would be squashed...  it wasn't in a mean way, really... it was just as if someone new to holding a sword stepped into a Kings Tourney.  You'd be disarmed, slapped on the ass with your own sword and kicked headlong into the dung pile before you even realized the duel had started.  In short, you're welcome to come try to play with the big boys if you want, but if you venture there, you may get hurt.  Deal with it.

This seemed to work well.  Not that anyone is asking my opinion, but it seems like this kind of structure would need to be maintained for this kind of community to work the way it once had.

Maybe this forum just isn't the place anymore.  Maybe this forum has done what it primarily intended to do, which was to get all of it's ad revenue up so it could make its money... and since we're all here, why kill yourself to change?  I can totally understand that, but that doesn't mean we necessarily need to accept it and keep going along with it.

I suppose we could rally together and form a community of marshalls here to rove around and smack people with rulers when they're being bad... but it seems like why do that when we'd still have to deal with the existing structure of the forums, the non-direct moderation control, etc.

I mean, seriously... should I just setup a new forum on my webserver?  Is there enough interest in here in striking out for a new world somewhere else?


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## bdavis (Jun 23, 2009)

I've only been on this forum since January and I have even noticed how much it changed.

I came on this forum to get answers to photography questions, hear reviews about gear that just hit the market, see what others are shooting, and maybe offer a little advice here and there. It used to be a lot of fun and I would spend most of my day on here.

Now, it seems like all that is gone. Nearly every post I come across pertains to at least one of the following:

"What camera should I get?"

"Just got a camera, what lens should I get?"

"Just got my camera and lens, what should I shoot?"

"I took this photo with my cell phone, is it good? Should I now spend $1,000 on a DSLR?"

"I know this photo is badly underexposed, oversaturated, oversharpened, and completely out of focus, but I like it anyways, does anyone else?

I have sympathy and respect for those on this forum who are really trying and working to get critiques on their work to be better photographers, but I feel like some people are just taking advantage of the forum. 

I remember when i was first starting out in photography, I had enough common sense to know when something was out of focus, dark, too bright, or whatever and I didn't show it to anyone, I just deleted it. Some of the "newbies" post these absolutely terrible images all over the place just for the sake of posting. If you want critiques on an actual photograph, fine, but posting every horrible "snapshot" is too much.

Also, what is with all the "What camera should I choose?" threads? I cant believe there is no one out there who would actually consider going to the store, trying them out, and picking one. Why would you have someone else tell you what camera you should get? We all got our cameras for different reasons whether we liked the features, whether we were on a budget, or if we just liked how it felt in our hands. It's not hard, read reviews, find a few you like, go try them out. How much simpler could it be?

I hate to rant and rave, but its annoying to sign on in the morning and be excited to look at all the topics and find out that 90% of them are the aforementioned questions. I think I am considering leaving as well.

Just my 2 cents...


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## Onion (Jun 23, 2009)

So what do you win when you get to 4,000 posts?

:lmao:


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## dl4449 (Jun 23, 2009)

As a newcomer around here (1 1/2 years?) *I personally enjoyed you critique the ones that I read were honest and genuine. *I didn't see anything that could be concidered harsh. Heck I would welcome any honest opnion because if some of my stuff is c**p I need to know how to improve.
I would Challenge the older members to keep on posting and keep this forum the way it was when i joined.
Troy


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## JerryPH (Jun 23, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Dude... burn through the thread posting until you reach the 5K club.  We get to go on field trips, receive a dandy secret decoder ring and (as a male) your penis will enlarge.



Ok, I have a serious complaint with this.  

I made the 5k club, and though the penis enlargement thing really did happen (smilin' Bob ain't got a thing on me now!  ), I still need to go pester Chris of Arabia for my dandy secret decoder ringy thingy.

Wazzup wit dat??


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## JerryPH (Jun 23, 2009)

NateS said:


> Onion said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the drama support forum? Maybe there should be a sticky for whinning.
> ...



... or what is the best lens to use WHILE whining!


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## mooimeisie (Jun 23, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> [... or what is the best lens to use WHILE whining!


 
Ok, now this is getting just plain funny.:smileys:


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## kundalini (Jun 23, 2009)

Chris, I like to leave options on the table so negotiations can continue. If mature sharp cheddar is not available, I will also have a strong Stilton.... as long as it's accompanied with a rather nice Port.

I think you have some reasonable grievences but I think one of the most needed sub-forum that was yanked is the Crit Forum. Let the Beginners forum run it's course, I don't feel qualified to post in the Professional forum, so that leaves a HUGE gap that's missing. We enthusiast, that want to share and learn advanced photography in which to take it to the next level. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of us that has a couple of years under our belt could use such a venue.

There should definetley be a "sticky(ies)" where to redirect those What, Where, When & How questions that are flooding the top pages.


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## manaheim (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words, dl.

kundalini... yeah, I think a crit forum (critical?  critique?) would be at least a step in the right direction.  I think that was the King's Tourney (or one instance of it, anyway) that I was referring to.

I also understand the whole position on "no stickies", but frankly I think it's a cop-out.  We need to have some kind of section on this forum where some sort of objective analysis of the more common questions can be posted, commented on, edited, and then basically locked.  Then going forward, anytime anyone asks the same question, they are pointed to the section.

Moderators... Chris?  Anyone else listening?

What about it?

- A Critical Forum - more moderated- hell, dub a couple of us as moderators if you like and we'll take the burden
- A FAQ/Guides Forum - VERY moderated... someone takes on a subject, writes up an article, collects feedback for 15 days, makes updates, article gets approved by mods and is locked... re-open for discussion as deemed necessary by the moderators... again, deputize a couple of us if you need some more hands

I think these two things would help.


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## kundalini (Jun 23, 2009)

Okay, third times the charm or I'm outta here.  No cheddar, no stilton......

Gorganzola

With a Merlot or possibly a CabSav or ooooohhhhh a Zinfandel....... and don't forget the biscuits.......


Oi, any admins reading this thread?  (sorry CoA, I know you have been)  Please take notice.


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## manaheim (Jun 23, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Okay, third times the charm or I'm outta here. No cheddar, no stilton......
> 
> Gorganzola
> 
> ...


 
I can offer you some venezuaelan beaver cheese.

I dunno if any other mods are watching...


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## kundalini (Jun 23, 2009)

manaheim said:


> I can offer you some venezuaelan beaver cheese.


*That sounds interesting* ......

When you mention beaver and cheese in the same sentence, to hell with the mods.......




AS LONG AS WE"RE TALKING ABOUT PROPER *CHEESE*.​


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## manaheim (Jun 24, 2009)

Mods?

Chris?

Anyone?


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## Chiller (Jun 24, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Mods?
> 
> Chris?
> 
> Anyone?


 
  There are supposed to be something like 43000 members here.  I think there are 2(?) mods. How much sense does that make? The Admin are just sitting back counting the $$ from the advertising.  
 Im on more then one forum....some are not photography related.   Every forum Im on, has more then enough mods to monitor the threads, move them, ban the morons...but here, nobody cares.  For example...one forum has 2000 members with 8 mods in different time zones.  Not one issue(it is not a photography forum)
  yeah, this place can be fixed, but do they really want to.   I think not.   I was one of the first 1000 members here, and we have put our heads together before, and ended up with bruises.  Photography is not the number one issue here anymore.  The place has been divided between beginners  , pros, arseholes, wannabees, kids with cell phones...and blah blah blah.  It is no longer a community of people sharing the same venture. 
  This place needs a complete overhaul, minus the pretty commercial skins that were put in place.  

 There should be a monitored Critique gallery, divided up into a few catagories(landscape, people....or whatever)
 There should be a photo sharing gallery, with for the less serious, that could be divided into 3 or for general galleries.  
  There are stickies here, that are years old, some totally useless.  
There are threads in the wrong galleries that need to be moved.  
There are dead links(people who have removed their photos)
  Get rid of the Mod interviews....who cares...they are all gone anyways.  

I could go on, but....  Im going out shooting.


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 24, 2009)

Thinking out loud .....

Perhaps a way to keep beginners from posting in the more advanced gallery threads would be to require those members wishing to post there to take a breif quiz first, sort of like those given by a few of the stock photo sites. If you can't answer the basic photography questions, you're not qualified to post there and are denied access; which would limit many to the beginners board.

Perhaps some guidelines on the type of photos would help a bit  -- a rule that cell phone photos are not allowed -period. I understand many people snap a quick shot here and there with the phone, but how interested in photography can they really be, if the cell phone is all they use? 

Another thought --and I don't mean to offend anyone, a youth forum for anyone under 21, which I feel [showing my age big time here] would help with attitude adjustments, but it really wouldn't be fair to those kids here who are truly talented and obviously serious about learning photography [Phil Garber] comes to mind, but there are a couple of others also.

As for all the repeat questions - perhaps an automated response could be implemented which would direct the poster to all the threads already pertaining to "What lens..." What Camera..." and no one would be able to respond to the new question thread posted.

Just my random thoughts, but if they trigger a better thought from someone else, no harm done.


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## NateS (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm going to throw out a couple ideas on how to improve things...they may be good, may be bad ideas.

1.  Add more mods....BUT, have newly added mods designated to take care of specific sections (1-2 per mod) that way each mod IS able to check all or near all of the posts in their section(s).

2.  You can't add stickies because you don't want 2-3 pages worth of stickies at the top of each forum.  SOLUTION - Add a FAQ sticky at the top of each forum.  THen...go find all the good posts worth being stickied and add them to the FAQ stickied thread....for example, a FAQ in the Beginner's forum which contains links to useful posts about D40 vs. XS, or Canon vs. Nikon, or which lens should I buy, etc.....  Then each time somebody makes a stupid new post asking about Nikon or Canon, a moderator can just post the link to the FAQ section and lock that thread.

That seems like a pretty simple solution that would require a little help from current members (by becoming moderators) and from the sounds of it....quite a few people would be willing if it helped the forum get back to it's old self.

Edit:  One step further.  Give each new mod about 2-3 sections, but overlap them so that each section has about 2 mods, but with them "staggered" (i.e. not the same two mods for the same 3 sections).  This way if one mod is gone there's a chance that the other one is there to do something.


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 24, 2009)

*NateS* - I agree with you about more mods, each having their own forum to take care of. Very good idea! :thumbup:


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm still here and still listening. I am also trying to encourage a debate on some of the suggestions so far. I'm actually very limited in the ability I have to implement some of the suggestions made. The only one I can really act on is to trawl through the old stickies and unstick as necessary. One way or another, we will get there.

Again though, I would urge you to report problems as they arise using the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 icon. Just so you know, not one post has been reported in the last 24 hours, not even spam.

I don't think I can help with some of the cheese though...


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 24, 2009)

OK, I've weeded the stickies a bit - 50 minutes of non-stop clicking to get that done. Really wish better connections were available in Saudi


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## benlonghair (Jun 24, 2009)

You know, I didn't even think about this until I read this post. I'm about as much a noob as anyone here (accomplished forum troll, but photographer not so much) but I see what *Manaheim* is talking about. 

I understand about not wanting 3/4 of a page of stickies, but some might be nice. Like a user pro/con of entry level DSLRs. Some nice person (read: sucker) would need to volunteer to put it together, but it would be nice if there was a reference in the beginner forum. 

For example, when I bought my D60 I spent about 2 weeks deciding which camera to buy. Many the reviews I read said "OMG 3fps until you fill the memory card." 

Not true. You can get a burst of shots 5 in RAW and 8 (I think) in large JPEG. I am extremely disappointed that I didn't know this before I bought the camera. Nothing like panning with somebody on a jetski and just as you get to the shot you really want the camera stops clicking for seven or eight seconds. Not a single review talked about this limitation.

Had somebody told me that the 3fps feature wasn't exactly 3fps (I don't know if any DSLR is really 3fps in RAW), I might have looked at another camera. If somebody had told me that the noise after about ISO 400 is high, I might have looked at a slightly higher priced unit. 

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a ton of info here if you have the time (and the knowledge of how to search this style of board) but if you're a bit of a luddite or are looking for a quick answer it's difficult. This could even be dealt with as a sticky of links to interesting/useful older posts.


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## NateS (Jun 24, 2009)

benlonghair said:


> You know, I didn't even think about this until I read this post. I'm about as much a noob as anyone here (accomplished forum troll, but photographer not so much) but I see what *Manaheim* is talking about.
> 
> I understand about not wanting 3/4 of a page of stickies, but some might be nice. Like a user pro/con of entry level DSLRs. Some nice person (read: sucker) would need to volunteer to put it together, but it would be nice if there was a reference in the beginner forum.
> 
> ...



see my responses above


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## Big Mike (Jun 24, 2009)

> That being said, I do think we have a problem here, and the best I can come up with for a solution is that we need stronger structure and moderation than we have.


Not meaning to pick on anyone in particular, I pulled this quote out...it seems to echo many of the other suggestions.  

On one hand, a healthy forum should be largely self-moderated.  If someone posts in the wrong section, other members should let them know, so that it doesn't happen again.  If someone steps over the line, other members can step in (hopefully not in an argumentative way) or at least report the post.  
Of course, there is a fine line here.  On many other forums, 'newbs' who are ignorant of the prevailing standards of conduct are 'flamed' from all angles and they either fall in line or are scared off.  While this does cause them to get a bad reputation, it also serves to keep their standards higher....but in the long run, the lack of new blood eventually affects the forum in a negative way.

This forum has always tried to be open and welcoming to newbies.  That is one reason we get so many 'which camera do I buy' threads.  But that is maybe also why we find that many members seem to out-grow (or grow tired) of the forum after a while.  At some point, many members will find that they all but stop getting anything useful from the forum.  To this I say: what other forums are you a member of?  This forum certainly doesn't assume to offer everything you could want in a photography forum...there are a plethora of others that offer all sorts of other things...and many of them offer a higher level of 'photographic knowledge', if that's what you are looking for.  But you certainly don't have to leave this forum because you join another.

For me, the lasting attraction to this forum is the teaching and sharing of knowledge.  Yes, I do get tired of the same questions over and over again, but I also thrive on helping those who truly have the desire to learn about photography.  

So going back to where I started, I think the forum is 'set up' to be largely self moderated and thus the few of us moderators are only here to deal with issues that come up...not to drive the direction of the forum.  That being said, if the membership really wants more structure and more moderation...then let it be known (this thread for example).  But my warning is this...beware what you wish for.  We've been down this road before and not everyone likes it.  Also, keep in mind that there are many thousands of members who aren't 'complaining' (for lack of a better term) at the moment...and we don't want to have a knee jerk reaction every time a few members voice a discerning opinion.


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## NateS (Jun 24, 2009)

Big Mike said:


> > That being said, I do think we have a problem here, and the best I can come up with for a solution is that we need stronger structure and moderation than we have.
> 
> 
> Not meaning to pick on anyone in particular, I pulled this quote out...it seems to echo many of the other suggestions.
> ...



That's because those other 1000 members can't decide between which to get...D40 or XS.... 

Seriously though, so you are saying that if we start reporting the 16 threads a day asking about which camera to get, you guys will lock those threads and tell them to do a search?  If so, then that's good news and I'll start using the little button on the left.


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## paulk_68 (Jun 24, 2009)

You could just copy and paste this to every out of place _what should I buy_ thread...

*Photography Equipment & Products: News & Reviews* 
         Talk about the latest photographic headlines and read - or give - product reviews. Also get advice on what equipment to purchase and get opinions from others about various products.

People would hopefully get the idea sooner or later.


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 24, 2009)

NateS said:


> Seriously though, so you are saying that if we start reporting the 16 threads a day asking about which camera to get, you guys will lock those threads and tell them to do a search?  If so, then that's good news and I'll start using the little button on the left.



I don't think that's quite it. My initial thought is to say that the 16 threads a day are evidence that the forum is doing what it was set up to do - help people. The FAQ on that sort of stuff is fine, with the exception that what's on the market seems to change about every 30 minutes and would be something of a challenge to maintain reliably. Now if someone can suggest some general content for such a sticky, then maybe it can be created without getting to tied into a particular model/manufacturer.

Also, just because those 16 threads are there doesn't mean you have to read them all, much less answer them. Personally, I browse the forum via the 'New Post' link on the tool bar above. That way there is a constant mix of posts passing before my eyes. This works for me as a mod because you can almost keep track of what's going on. For others it may not work so well, particularly if you're looking for a specific thread in a specific forum.

The posts we really need reports on are where the manners/respect/attitude/language etc has gone down the toilet. There is the opportunity for anyone to try to bring things back on track, but there's no need for everyone to do it - I'm really not keen on seeing the mob hounding that goes on occasionally.


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## benlonghair (Jun 24, 2009)

NateS said:


> see my responses above



ya I understand those things now. And now I know the questions to ask, info to look up and photos to check on flickr. 

I'll leave the more experienced people to debate this now.


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## NateS (Jun 24, 2009)

Chris of Arabia said:


> NateS said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously though, so you are saying that if we start reporting the 16 threads a day asking about which camera to get, you guys will lock those threads and tell them to do a search?  If so, then that's good news and I'll start using the little button on the left.
> ...



I see what you mean.  I use the "View New Posts" link as well and that's my problem.  I click that link and the first half of the page is covered with all of these threads combined with all the stuff from the beginner's forum and it's difficult to always see what is what through this method.

Is there anyway to customize the View New Posts for my user so that it will omit certain sections like the Beginner's forum and such?  What about blocking /ignoring a section like you can with certain users?  Anyway to "Ignore" that section so all threads within it just don't show up for me?  This would be  HUGE help for me and probably a lot of others...then we literally wouldn't see the bombardment of duplicate threads.


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 24, 2009)

NateS said:


> Is there anyway to customize the View New Posts for my user so that it will omit certain sections like the Beginner's forum and such?  What about blocking /ignoring a section like you can with certain users?  Anyway to "Ignore" that section so all threads within it just don't show up for me?  This would be  HUGE help for me and probably a lot of others...then we literally wouldn't see the bombardment of duplicate threads.



Not that I'm aware of, but I don't have anything like the full extent of administrator capabilities that are within the forum's capabilities. I tend to think that when you are using 'New Posts', most things run through the screen pretty quickly anyway, unless it's a really slow day.


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## blash (Jun 24, 2009)

Chiller said:


> There are supposed to be something like 43000 members here.  I think there are 2(?) mods. How much sense does that make? The Admin are just sitting back counting the $$ from the advertising.



What I hope the Admins understand, then, is that they could probably get a few more people to moderate part-time for free. People aren't being paid to post on here - they're here because they like to be here, and a little bit of power is going to make them feel like they can make a difference in terms of the quality of the forum.

Essentially, you have a dirty public park - there are going to be some people who frequent the park who would clean the place up for free if only you would give them a broom, because if they clean the place up for everyone then they are cleaning it for themselves. TPF definitely needs more moderators found and appointed.


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## Joves (Jun 24, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> NateS said:
> 
> 
> > Onion said:
> ...


I think the 105 Micro would be the best lens for that.
But yeah I dont post any critques myself because of either the arguements or, hearing the crickets chirp from the poster. I also try to add suggestions on how to improve what they shot but, I guess that isnt what they are looking for.


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## Chiller (Jun 24, 2009)

blash said:


> What I hope the Admins understand, then, is that they could probably get a few more people to moderate part-time for free. People aren't being paid to post on here - they're here because they like to be here, and a little bit of power is going to make them feel like they can make a difference in terms of the quality of the forum.
> 
> Essentially, you have a dirty public park - there are going to be some people who frequent the park who would clean the place up for free if only you would give them a broom, because if they clean the place up for everyone then they are cleaning it for themselves. TPF definitely needs more moderators found and appointed.


 

I think you are correct in your statement that this place needs more mods. It is obvious that the "self moderation" is not working.:lmao: All the good photographers, and most that have an inkling of what a camera is have left cause of this new TPF. It needs mods in different time zones, to keep an eye on things. If there is a problem now, by the time somebody gets to it, the thread has escalated into a name calling pile of doo. I feel the others that done "complain" dont give a rats arse about TPF, but for you that do care, are voicing your opinions .
For this place to work now, with the ammount of people, it needs active members who can have certain clean up authority and moderation, where then can intervene in a thread that is getting out of hand. Just a few simple words of warning might keep a thread alive. With the self moderation, every thread that someone might try to keep in line turns ugly. That is only in the galleries I poke my head in. It is a great rainy day lunchtime to come in and read the locked threads. 
I still think a critique forum is necessary, since this is a photography forum. But like others, it needs to be structured and moderated. It does not have to have "specially trained" people, just common sense. Hell....it can work on other forums, why not here. 
The poster states his mission with the photo...what he/ she was striving for, camera settings, the elements...and so on. The more info you provide, the better critique you will get. (just my observation elsewhere) I have seen a lot of people that want to learn, and are being turned away by the way things are going here.   LIke...dont post a freekin cell phone image of your best buddy Jordan, skateboarding with his shorts half down the crack of his rear at sunset, and say..."what do you think". 
I know Im wasting my words, but I hope for those of you that care and wish to see TPF carry on might get some resolution(no pun intended). 
Good luck with this. :er:


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 24, 2009)

Chiller said:


> I have seen a lot of people that want to learn, and are being turned away by the way things are going here. LIke...dont post a freekin cell phone image of your best buddy Jordan, skateboarding with his shorts half down the crack of his rear at sunset, and say..."what do you think".


 
:lmao: Thank you Chiller! You always say something that makes me laugh and Laughter is the best medicine - or so they say. :lmao:


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## Chiller (Jun 24, 2009)

Dagwood56 said:


> Chiller said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen a lot of people that want to learn, and are being turned away by the way things are going here. LIke...dont post a freekin cell phone image of your best buddy Jordan, skateboarding with his shorts half down the crack of his rear at sunset, and say..."what do you think".
> ...


 

Thank you Carol.  Ya know...one of the issues here, is people take themselves to serious.  My gawd....life it soo short.  When I get up in the morning, and hear the birds whistling Supertramp songs( I wont explain that to any of the Nintendo Generation tuned in here) but.....I know today is a new day.   Live it the best ya can.  What we do in our everyday lives can be stressfull enough.  Learn to laugh a little at ourselves and laugh with others not at them.


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## ottor (Jun 24, 2009)

I belong to a guitar forum .. it also has a 'beginner' section... We get a lot of people jumping in, posting a couple of foolish questions, and then never see them again... We have a couple of forums that have restrictions - system won't permit access unless you have a certain number of posts - and then, no access until past posts are quickly scanned by the Mods to verify you are a 'reasonable' member and not posting just junk to get your numers up.. 200 posts and a Mod's OK, and you have access.. That would keep out some of the foolishness to some of the more advanced forums.. A place for those to hang out that dont' want to put up with the beginner stuff... Just a thought..

r


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## kundalini (Jun 24, 2009)

Chiller said:


> When I get up in the morning, and hear the birds whistling Supertramp songs( I wont explain that to any of the Nintendo Generation tuned in here) but.....


    :thumbup:


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 24, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Chiller said:
> 
> 
> > When I get up in the morning, and hear the birds whistling Supertramp songs( I wont explain that to any of the Nintendo Generation tuned in here) but.....
> ...


 

:lmao::lmao:


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## SonnarSphere (Jun 24, 2009)

interesting thread. i have been on and off this forum since it started (Dial-Up Lhama). apparently 
thats 2003 but i thought it was earlier...like 2001/2002 did it change ownership? anyhow...like 
hundreds of people here who post/lurk i've been into photography for decades. also thousands of 
hours of 'post-production/'pre-press' whatever you term it. i'm not the slightest bit interested in 
'critique' absolutely ZERO interest in critical value judgements which are incompatible with a spirit 
of subjective freedom. i'm unimpressed by a post-count and i can see someone has a photoshop
guru scoutbadge - whoopee-doo!

i do like conversations which stem from the subjectivity of images and i like discussions/anecdotes
about operational techniques and obscure information about cameras and optics.

i'd share a picture for fun. also i see many many great photos that are completely ignored on 
this forum in the past.

when i see any merit in a picture i will encourage it. i will refrain from critique also if i sense it 
is beyond the capability of the poster to understand. if a beginner posts something then put
yourself in his/her shoes and remember that it's a lifelong pursuit and the magic of general
photography is something profound when you are a novice and don't crush that seed.. 
try to see the purpose in a mediocre photo. greatness comes from encouragement not derision.

if you want to belong to an elite forum, try photofurm.ru. it's good - very good standards. you 
will gradually be judged over time and considered for promotion to membership. and there is 
ipernity which blows flickr out of the water for community interaction. hundreds of excellent, 
global photographers who hardly ever critique anything. they teach by showing. and people learn
by copying whatever attracts them.

if i post pictures without any sharpening, processed at 5200kelvin regardless of time of day etc. 
its because i want to. not because i dont know how to dodge/burn/blend/gradient map etc.
 there are some rude ignorant people here who i know would lack the experience to discern that. 
at best those people will ignore the things i might share. that's a good working relationship.


i hope this forum continues for years to come. it is essentially a very good place.


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## Blank (Jun 24, 2009)

thats the best reply i've seen on this thread so far.


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## Chiller (Jun 24, 2009)

SonnarSphere said:


> interesting thread. i have been on and off this forum since it started (Dial-Up Lhama). apparently
> thats 2003 but i thought it was earlier...like 2001/2002 did it change ownership? anyhow...like
> hundreds of people here who post/lurk i've been into photography for decades. also thousands of
> hours of 'post-production/'pre-press' whatever you term it. i'm not the slightest bit interested in
> ...


 

I hope everyone reads your response.I agree 100%  This forum needs more people with your attitude.  :thumbup::thumbup:


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## SonnarSphere (Jun 24, 2009)

thanks very much Blank. thanks very much Chiller. (!)


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## adamwilliamking (Jun 24, 2009)

I deleted all my user CP stuff today and will no longer be taking part @ thephotoforum.com

Alot of photographers on here have their heads up their ass and the funny part is they really are not that good, no offense to anyone here but I have some pretty amazing mentors and nothing on this forum has ever come close to what I would consider A+ photography. Anyways, point is, most of this forum has their heads up their ass, I'm out. 

Just noticed this and wanted to actually thank you personally, Manaheim, for being one of the only users on the forum to actually follow my posts to some degree and offer consistent feedback. Too bad the ratio is a million to one. 

Peace out ya'll!


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## Chris of Arabia (Jun 25, 2009)

Blank said:


> thats the best reply i've seen on this thread so far.



I just wish I'd had the language skills to express things that way myself


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## manaheim (Jun 25, 2009)

So, mods... how open are you to varying things up a bit?  Some options on the table have been...

- add some moderators
- create some different groupings of posts/categories
- have some more strict moderation in some spaces
- etc.

I mean, Mike, you seem semi-open, but I don't know that we explicitly know what we're willing to do?


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## manaheim (Jun 25, 2009)

BTW, for anyone who has been reading this, please note the Pact thread referenced in my signature.  One way to try to help things out that seems to be gaining some popularity as a concept.


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## Big Mike (Jun 25, 2009)

manaheim said:


> So, mods... how open are you to varying things up a bit?  Some options on the table have been...
> 
> - add some moderators
> - create some different groupings of posts/categories
> ...



Firstly, we mods are just mods...we don't own the forum, nor do we make the decisions on how the forum is laid out, how it is run etc.  There is a 'chain of command' and we aren't on the top rung, so to speak.

If you have some actual ideas for the forum, put them in the feedback forum...that's the first step.  The key point is that for an idea to really be taken seriously, it has to have some thought put into it, with some suggestions on how to follow though on it. 

Keep in mind that it's still a very small minority of members who are 'demanding change'.  I'm not saying that you need to 'drum up support'...but keep in mind that any ideas need to take thought for the forum as a whole...not just the little clique that likes to speak out.

The bottom line is that we can't please all of the people, all of the time.  It's inevitable that some people will get fed up and leave...it happens all the time...it's not a big deal, we get quite a few new members everyday.  And when people go to the trouble to 'announce' that they are leaving...I just roll my eyes


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## SonnarSphere (Jun 25, 2009)

i've 'announced' i was leaving..i'm sure somewhere/some place before. it's daft..and ironic
 if you think about it. you'd only announce it if you felt you actually belong to it. otherwise
 you'd just click X and forget about it. 

i remember henri cartier bresson was mortified when i said 'ok, that's it! no more
 decisive moments from ME!, you can keep eat your silly beret..i'm outa here!'


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## JerryPH (Jun 25, 2009)

When people announce that they are leaving, in general it is not for the drama moment, it is to make the statement that they've tried and did not succeed and wanted people to feel their frustration and know why they left.  If they did not care, they would just click and leave (like in the case of many of the senior and very talented members who no longer post).  This is not something to roll one's eyes at.  Yes, when people leave and don't even say a word... it is becuase they are far PAST caring, past frustration, and as important as the people screaming that they are leaving, the ones that do not say a thing are equally important in pointing out that there is a serious issue that needs attention... now.  They are just so far past caring that they don't even make the gesture of an announcement, they are past making that small effort becuase TPF is not even worth that anymore.  It has sunk so low that even the most base reaction, becuase in their eyes it is a waste of effort to do so.  They are voting with their feet instead of like some here, that are not voting, but asking for change and for help with their posts.

A point to consider; When these members in good standing (people with experience that new members come here for in the first place), leave, with and/or without the drama, sure there are 20 more new members that come in behind them... but what has happened to the club?  As a whole, the club lost a valuable and knowledgeable member over and over... not just one, but during the time I have been here, at least a good 2 dozen core knowledgeable members have left... replaced by hundreds of Mr or Ms "what lens and/or camera do I need to buy..." kinds of users. That is *not* going to make this place better, not this kind of mentality.

Now, if that is what TPF wants, then they are going in the right direction, just sit back and let it happen... but I really hope that this is not what the owners of TPF really want, not what they wanted when they first opened shop years ago.

It is cool that Mike posts the other side of the fence, representing the mods/owners, and he is right, no matter what they do, never will everyone be 100% happy.  But that is not the point here, I think that if the owners of TPF care about this place and want it to go up a notch instead of dropping down 2, they will listen and acknowledge that there *is* something bad happening and try to address a very serious issue here and also let their voices be heard a little stronger than they have been in the past.

Mike suggested that a very small percentage of people are complaining or asking for change, but let's look at that for a moment... and I think that we will see that this low percentage group is doing a lot more for TPF *as a club* than all those other 10,000 silent members who never post, never participate, but are part of the silent majority as numbers in the database of users.

I'm not picking on you Mike, you're a stand-up guy and I have a ton of respect for you (you are the most active of all the mods!), but I hope that not all that you said is what the owners really feel. If it is, why are they wasting their time?  Just closer the doors or pass the reigns on to someone who cares a little more.  

That is drastic as hell, and I know that... it was meant to raise an eyebrow and maybe get a couple of key people "upstairs" thinking, because the solution in real life is a LOT simpler and doesn't need to be anywhere close to that drastic nor dramatic. It does entail responding to the request for help that this small percentage of people are asking for, though.


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## Hawaii Five-O (Jun 25, 2009)

SonnarSphere said:


> i hope this forum continues for years to come. it is essentially a very good place.



That was a good post you made:thumbup:


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## Tasmaster (Jun 25, 2009)

My two cents:

A lot of this seems to revolve around one issue: begginers vs advanced users - pros. It is not elitism, but trying to cater for both groups ends up helping none of them, so a more focused, more obvious direction for the forum would be appreciated. This is obviously a big decision for whoever has to make it, as it means that one of these groups will be excluded. The moderator team will play a big part in putting this in practice.

As of the current state of things, i would prefer to see any direction over no direction at all. I also believe that it is possible to get the best of both words with a careful re-organisation of the sub-forum structure.

A few details:

Having been away for a while, i have seen a shift in quality, subjective as it may be, of the material posted. Less photographs draw my eye, and i see more unremarkable photos, often with unremarkable comments.

For what it's worth, i have no idea what the moderators do on this forum, other than being nice and friendly most of the time. Let me direct you to another forum that i like: RelicNews Forums - powered by vBulletin It is a gaming forum, so i guess a lot of you won't know it or won't get it, but there is one thing that stounds out. Moderation is nothing less than stellar. It is active, as strict as needed, efficient and helpful. There are no such things as duplicate threads, not every sub-forum allows off-topic posting, and if you don't follow the rules you are warned and suspended or banned after multiple warnings. The whole thing runs smooth and everyone is happy.

To return to my opening point, the relicnews.com forum can do all that because it is focused. While the source material is a lot less generic than "photography", that forum is still host to a very diverse community and all kinds of discussions take place. It is my opinion that a similar direction would benefit The Photo Forum a lot.

I can't decide if 'The Pact' is an idealized version of how a photography forum should be (and possibly very hard to make work), or just a good start (which it sounds like anyway).


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## Big Mike (Jun 25, 2009)

It's been my experience that, for the most part, when a member posts a dramatic 'I'm leaving' post...they usually come back...if only to see what people have to say about them in their (seemingly) absence.  Several of them end up posting replies to their own 'last post'...and some just come back like nothing happened.  

Basically, I'm see them as a cry for attention...and I don't have time to indulge them and beg them to stay...which seems to be what some of them want.

I'm not picking on anyone in particular here...just my experience from the last 5-6 years around here.  

Yes, I agree that this place is better off when the 'experienced' members continue to hang around and they can't just be replaced by the newbs...but we also have to accept that as a forum grows, it becomes less important (and less feasible) to go out of the way to accommodate individuals....experienced or not.  

I think I mentioned it before...but the idea of this (and many other) forums is that it is to be largely 'Member Driven'.  That doesn't mean that the mods/admin have to make wholesale changes everytime the 'club' has an issue.  It means that they should lead by example...and if the herd follows, then that's the way it goes.  We (the mods) are just here in enforce the rules.

Again, I'm all for change...but lets see some solid idea besides 'add more mods'.


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## Dagwood56 (Jun 25, 2009)

Perhaps someone should review this thread now and take just the list of "fix ideas" whether it be all of them or those the op feels are the best in the thread and do what one of the mods has suggested - post them on the feedback forum...perhaps one of the mods could even PM someone in Admin and ask them to read the list.  Then the ideas are posted here, in feedback, and then we have the pact links in member sigs as well - If nothing else it might get the word out to more\those members who don't look on this board. Just a thought.


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## kundalini (Jun 25, 2009)

Here's another log to throw on the fire........ for whoever (or is it whomever) decides to make a post in the Feedback and Suggestion Forum about this discussion.

The Crit Forum went by the wayside because of this or that.  So be it.  (I think I mentioned this before) but the gap between Beginners and Pro's is vast and I feel many that are voicing their opinions here are the "somewhere-in-betweens".  How about a sub-forum for those in betweens that are subscribers?  I don't have a problem with a pay-to-play policy/forum at all.  It's only a couple of bucks per month.  I mean, about the only benefit I get is a larger In Box.  I don't utilize the gallery option, the bold text in username is nice, but unnecessary, I do like the little ribbon by me name though.  What else is it we're suppose to get?

Anyway, this would be a place for all that have a vested interest can go to and (hopefully) cooler heads will prevail for dialogue on photos posted for C&C.

OMG, this just hit me.......  It could also be a way for the owners to generate even more income.  Think about it..... pay $25 a year to be where all the cool kids hang out.... oh, that's juicy.

Seriously, it's a suggestion only, but I feel one that merits conversation.


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## manaheim (Jun 25, 2009)

Big Mike said:


> It's been my experience that, for the most part, when a member posts a dramatic 'I'm leaving' post...they usually come back...if only to see what people have to say about them in their (seemingly) absence. Several of them end up posting replies to their own 'last post'...and some just come back like nothing happened.
> 
> Basically, I'm see them as a cry for attention...and I don't have time to indulge them and beg them to stay...which seems to be what some of them want.
> 
> I'm not picking on anyone in particular here...just my experience from the last 5-6 years around here.


 
You're not picking on anyone in particular...? But responding to my post to say that...? Seriously...?

My post was absolutely _not_ a cry for attention for me, personally... it was an attempt on my part to rally a bit of discussion about things that are starting to chafe me about this place, because I would genuinely like to continue with the community here that I think is mostly good.



Big Mike said:


> Yes, I agree that this place is better off when the 'experienced' members continue to hang around and they can't just be replaced by the newbs...but we also have to accept that as a forum grows, it becomes less important (and less feasible) to go out of the way to accommodate individuals....experienced or not.


 
I don't quite see how both can't be reasonably supported in one environment. You have people jumping up and down offering their help and the forum can be restructured a bit.

Now, if the owners just have zero interest in this... fine. Say so, and we'll likely all shut up and be done with it.



Big Mike said:


> I think I mentioned it before...but the idea of this (and many other) forums is that it is to be largely 'Member Driven'. That doesn't mean that the mods/admin have to make wholesale changes everytime the 'club' has an issue. It means that they should lead by example...and if the herd follows, then that's the way it goes. We (the mods) are just here in enforce the rules.


 
And I hope you see that some of us are trying to do that, but at the end of the day if restructuring things a bit would be needed to support some of the ideas... well, the members can't do that other than to ask for it.



Big Mike said:


> Again, I'm all for change...but lets see some solid idea besides 'add more mods'.


 
I think you've had them... but I'm getting the sense we have to jump through some hoops and write up some kind of formal document of request to discuss them further... I don't quite see how this particular thread didn't cover it, but...



Big Mike said:


> Firstly, we mods are just mods...we don't own the forum, nor do we make the decisions on how the forum is laid out, how it is run etc. There is a 'chain of command' and we aren't on the top rung, so to speak.


 
I understand this.



Big Mike said:


> If you have some actual ideas for the forum, put them in the feedback forum...that's the first step. The key point is that for an idea to really be taken seriously, it has to have some thought put into it, with some suggestions on how to follow though on it.


 
mmm...



Big Mike said:


> Keep in mind that it's still a very small minority of members who are 'demanding change'. I'm not saying that you need to 'drum up support'...but keep in mind that any ideas need to take thought for the forum as a whole...not just the little clique that likes to speak out.


 
First off, we're not demanding change. We're making suggestions on what changes we feel might make TPF a better place... not just for an isolated group... for everyone.

NOBODY that I've seen in this thread has been ANYTHING but supportive of new folks on this board. This isn't about being elitest or segregational or anything... it's just about trying to tweak things to make them a bit better.

I also don't get how you can ignore some of the longevity of some of the people raising their voices in here. It's not like we're just some random people who fell off the boat whining about something 2 weeks after being here... though I must say, you're absolutely making me feel that way. 



Big Mike said:


> The bottom line is that we can't please all of the people, all of the time. It's inevitable that some people will get fed up and leave...it happens all the time...it's not a big deal, we get quite a few new members everyday. And when people go to the trouble to 'announce' that they are leaving...I just roll my eyes


 
Good. I'm really glad to know how you feel. Very glad I invested this time to try to help.

EDITed for harshness: I like you and what you do here, Mike, but your posts today have really dissapointed me.  They seem dismissive and borderline insulting.  Perhaps I'm misreading.  I'm sick, so I'm grouchy.  Dunno.


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## Big (Jul 25, 2009)

It's people like you that I learn from. I have no one in my life to go to for photography advice and learning from someone who has experience means a lot to me. It's hard to tell what's right or wrong (of course everyone has their own opinions) but I would believe someone with professional experience who has your 4000+ posts compared to some noob off the street. I've talked with you on a brief occasion and you seem like a good guy.


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## kric2schaam626 (Jul 25, 2009)

I am totally new here and have been in hopes of finding some honest and even brutal critiquing because everybody I know thinks my photography is great, but really, it's so far from that. I struggle with aperture and shutter speeds for crying out loud!! I am NEW. So please, stick around, anybody new could use your help. I'll take it with more than a grain of salt. Thanks!!


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## manaheim (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm still here a couple hundred posts later.  I'm a little frustrated, but I'm trying to make the board a better place if I can.

That being said, I've had a hell of a few weeks at work so I'm a little grouchier than usual, so I may be contributing the problem occasionally. 

Thanks for the kind words.


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## jealous (Aug 10, 2009)

maybe it'd be good to stop posting for a while... more time to get out and take photos?
though moaning on the internet is just as productive. I dont mean to offend, seriously, but in all honesty while most appreciate 90% of your posting (because its helpful) it is over-shadowed by grumpy venting threads like this bro, keep it in check and people might take the pact thing more seriously?

-J


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## PhilGarber (Aug 11, 2009)

jealous said:


> maybe it'd be good to stop posting for a while... more time to get out and take photos?
> though moaning on the internet is just as productive. I dont mean to offend, seriously, but in all honesty while most appreciate 90% of your posting (because its helpful) it is over-shadowed by grumpy venting threads like this bro, keep it in check and people might take the pact thing more seriously?
> 
> -J




I agree. On all the forums I visit, what makes them cool are the oldest, and wisest members. **** happens. Live past it.


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## PhilGarber (Aug 11, 2009)

In other words-CHIS WE :heart: YOU!!!  Don't go!

Also, isn't a fact of nature that beginner forums are crap?


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## Phranquey (Aug 11, 2009)

manaheim said:


> I'm still here a couple hundred posts later. I'm a little frustrated, but I'm trying to make the board a better place if I can.
> 
> That being said, I've had a hell of a few weeks at work so I'm a little grouchier than usual, so I may be contributing the problem occasionally.


 
I just found this thread, and, three cigarettes later, it's been a very good read. Glad you're still around...a lot of good people have gone in just the short 1 1/2 years I've been around. It would be a shame to lose another, especially someone with a will to make a difference.

I am on other boards related to various other hobbies (motorcyles, RC flying, scale model building, etc), and what goes on here is nothing new to the forum world, unfortunately. All you can do is start to "pick up the trash" in your own little park, and hope others follow suit.


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## kundalini (Aug 11, 2009)

man, does this thread still have a life? Dude, you're well beyond 4K now, but if it ever gets too heavy, much like for myself....... just *Walk Away*





 




 


Gawd..... does anyone remember the pops and crackles?


EDIT:  here's another one for you cloudwalker.........


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 11, 2009)

Who brought this corpse back to life?


30 lashes with a wet noodle to the guilty party. :lmao:





kundalini said:


> Gawd..... does anyone remember the pops and crackles?



Gawd yes. Still listen to them just about everyday. Can't afford to replace my collection with CDs not to mention that some of my vinyl has not ever come out on CD.


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## manaheim (Aug 11, 2009)

Hey for the record, I wasn't the one who revitalized it. 

I do appreciate the support though!   Love you too, Phil!


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks kundalini. I actually think that a recorded blues sounds better with some pops and crackles.


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## manaheim (Aug 11, 2009)

You know if you take those things and glue a thread spindle to them and put a filled balloon with air over the spindle, it makes them hover and you can slide them along the floor.  Wicked cool.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 11, 2009)

manaheim said:


> You know if you take those things and glue a thread spindle to them and put a filled balloon with air over the spindle, it makes them hover and you can slide them along the floor.  Wicked cool.



:scratch:


Man you are wicked strange 

Well maybe The Village People album :lmao:


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## UUilliam (Aug 12, 2009)

Part of the problem with being a Large Public International forum is you get allot of new people coming, Good and bad but mainly terrible
(by terrible i mean new people who wanna learn)
Thats why you dont see many Pro Photographers on Public boards cause they get bombarded with questions like "wuw huw i get subpar imagees like yu?"
so they use Private - Invite only forums (or similar)


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## PhilGarber (Aug 12, 2009)

UUilliam said:


> Part of the problem with being a Large Public International forum is you get allot of new people coming, Good and bad but mainly terrible
> (by terrible i mean new people who wanna learn)
> Thats why you dont see many Pro Photographers on Public boards cause they get bombarded with questions like "wuw huw i get subpar imagees like yu?"
> so they use Private - Invite only forums (or similar)



Private forums? Me intrigued! On topic, I think this thread definitely deserves a visit from Chase.


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > You know if you take those things and glue a thread spindle to them and put a filled balloon with air over the spindle, it makes them hover and you can slide them along the floor. Wicked cool.
> ...


 
Too many years of watching shows like Mr. Wizard and Beakman's World.


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## terri (Aug 12, 2009)

PhilGarber said:


> UUilliam said:
> 
> 
> > Part of the problem with being a Large Public International forum is you get allot of new people coming, Good and bad but mainly terrible
> ...


FYI: Chase sold the forum in late 2008. He is no longer the owner of TPF.

Folks, I will say again: with the recent vB upgrade, members have the ability to create groups, blogs, private albums, and other assorted goodies. BigMike's point about the site being member-driven is meant to encourage groups, such as all the interested parties in this thread, to band together and create their own special-interest group. It's been suggested in other threads. It can be done - just organize amongst yourselves! 

If you really need moderator assistance, just ask. What Mike's saying regarding mod assistance is that we do expect you to police yourselves while you make this place your own, using the tools here at your disposal.


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## manaheim (Aug 12, 2009)

Oh you know last time I looked at groups it didn't appear to have any real discussion capabilities... now it looks like it may.

Should I setup a group for some more serious critique or something along those lines?


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## Village Idiot (Aug 12, 2009)

Seriously Manny, it took you 4000 posts to realize that? Why do you think I don't take the noob section seriously? There's only so many times you can tell a noob to buy a 5D MKII over a D40 before they actually do it. I'll manage that one day, I will.


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## PhilGarber (Aug 12, 2009)

> FYI: Chase sold the forum in late 2008. He is no longer the owner of TPF.



Really? Wow. That proves my knowledge of TPF :meh:. Glad to see to chance of attitude, Chris!


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## Overread (Aug 12, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Oh you know last time I looked at groups it didn't appear to have any real discussion capabilities... now it looks like it may.
> 
> Should I setup a group for some more serious critique or something along those lines?



@#$"£!^!£$^$£%£$%"£$!"¬ !

I knew there was something I neglected when I returned.. gah 
*headbanging into wall smilie here*


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## Village Idiot (Aug 12, 2009)

I has domains. I can host private forums.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 13, 2009)

:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:

Alright. Ok. I'm with you. You're the man.

Only been here a couple months but in that short time it seems to have gotten totally ridiculous.

New members who know next to nothing giving the most ridiculous advice as if they were long time pros.

Overall quality of the uploaded photos going seriously south.

New members seem to have thinner and thinner skin.

So called pros stuck deeper and deeper in that rut that is their way and that they have to impose on everybody else.

Manaheim, you're the man.

:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:

Oh, wait a minute, you're doing some of that yourself.
:lmao:


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## manaheim (Aug 13, 2009)

^^^ 

Wow.

I'm hurt!


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## Jedo_03 (Aug 14, 2009)

Spent some time here previously - but 'disappeared' - yeah, because of some of the reasons posted above...
ALSO...
Well... I got the impression that I wasn't all that "popular" with the natives around here... Some of you guy's posting in this thread are loaded with your own brand of sarcasm and attitude and one-upmanship... I've experienced that personally in the forum.
As I see it - internet forums serve a wide gamut of interests: social, personal, community, 'belonging', and of course Knowledge...
I'd suppose that a noobie would join a forum based on a quest for Knowledge... Just got a new camera/wants to get a new camera/lens/strobe... Whadya think of this shot... The social etc aspects can/will only grow if the newbie becomes "accepted" by the other members of the community... Equally, if 'experienced' members won't/don't answer noobie questions then the noobie won't learn and grow...
In a 'real' camera club, noobies learn from experienced members by example (with the odd 'talk' here and there)... They get to see the variety of gear used by the savvy members and the SOOC and the post-processing technique, different styles... etc etc... 
TPF is a virtual camera club... But the same 'club' concepts (should still) apply... But by NOT talking about your gear and how you use it to obtain such and such an image - and by NOT showing noobies your images and giving your own comments - then you are shredding the concept of being a 'club'... So who loses...???
Okay - so the 'club-house' has suddenly been "invaded" by a multitude of Generation Y/Z noobies... 'undreds of -em... So what are established members gonna do..? Simply walk away from the club and the clubhouse..?
Would you walk away if it was a real club and a real club-house at the end of your street... Start a new club somewhere else..? Join a different club..?
Would you close the membership books and not allow any new members..? Would you 'restrict' membership and only allow people with green skin who are owners of 5D's or D700's..?
And if a new noobie (with green skin) comes along to the club next thursday night and the first question they ask is "What sorta camera should I get" are you gonna call the police (Mods) and have the poor little bugger ejected..? Do you really think that writing our words of wisdom on yellow "post-it" sheets and *stickying *them onto an allocated club-house wall will be helpful to a rookie noobie... at all..? Will ignoring them be helpful... at all..?
I think... the concept of any 'club' embraces and embodies comradeship and community... knowledge is gained and knowledge is passed on... in a social environment... with good intention... and from the heart...
And TPF is a club...
Jedo


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> :hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:
> 
> Alright. Ok. I'm with you. You're the man.
> 
> ...


 
I'll expose to whoever I damn well please.


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## Dao (Aug 14, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> ..... Only been here a couple months but in that short time it seems to have gotten totally ridiculous.
> New members who know next to nothing giving the most ridiculous advice as if they were long time pros.
> Overall quality of the uploaded photos going seriously south.
> New members seem to have thinner and thinner skin. .....




I do not know if it is a coincident or not, I believe it all started when  "Photography Beginners' Forum" section changed to "Photography Beginners' Forum & Photo Gallery"


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

Dao said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > ..... Only been here a couple months but in that short time it seems to have gotten totally ridiculous.
> ...



I don't think so - many beginners already used the section to get advice on photos which they posted there - the change in name mearly meant that the mods no longer had to move threads (and have other members whine about photos in the wrong section  ).
Besides it does allow for a more concentrated effort since many beginner level images in the galleries would get overlooked often as not


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 14, 2009)

manaheim said:


> Wow.
> 
> I'm hurt!



Hey, no need to be hurt  none of us are perfect. And imperfection is easier to take from someone who has something to offer.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> Dao said:
> 
> 
> > c.cloudwalker said:
> ...


 
Dao's opinion is the same as my own. People used to actually visit the other photo forums, but now, the Noob section seems to be TPF. No one really checks out the other parts. Here's a little experiment that will prove my point, post a photo in what ever valid Photo forum it belongs in asking for C&C and post the same photo in the Noob forum at the same time. You'll get a ton of people commenting and viewing in the Noob Toob, but only maybe one or two in the actually photo forum, if you're lucky that is. 

Difference is? Quality of critique. It really sucks though. TPF could literally do away with all the other forums except the Noob Toob and still run just as normal with only a few complaints due to lack of choices.

But hey, I don't run things here, I just run with things.


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## Dao (Aug 14, 2009)

I could not locate that particular old thread.   It was the thread that talked about creating a photo posting section for beginner.

The request was based on the beginners did not have a place to post their photos for C&C. (I was a photography noob at that time) They did not want to post their photos to the photo galleries because they thought their works were not belongs there (yet).

Hence the Beginner Forum changed to "Photography Beginners' Forum & Photo Gallery".  And beginner started post their photos there. So everyone follows including new members.


And I started to notice more and more snapshot type photos appeared.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Dao said:


> I could not locate that particular old thread. It was the thread that talked about creating a photo posting section for beginner.
> 
> *The request was based on the beginners did not have a place to post their photos for C&C. (I was a photography noob at that time) They did not want to post their photos to the photo galleries because they thought their works were not belongs there (yet).*
> 
> ...


 
The bold is a good thing. Maybe if people have photos that they were proud to post and wanted C&C on would be a much better thing that people posting every single shot they took. 

That's why beginner C&C posts rarely even get a look from me. The picture of the crooked telephone pole in the parking lot with no processing is posted because why?


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> That's why beginner C&C posts rarely even get a look from me. The picture of the crooked telephone pole in the parking lot with no processing is posted because why?



because they have yet to learn to ask that question?


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > That's why beginner C&C posts rarely even get a look from me. The picture of the crooked telephone pole in the parking lot with no processing is posted because why?
> ...


 
Because that would have been the 500th crooked telephone pole I've seen and apparently if they looked in other threads besides posting their own to ask questions about their snapshots, then it would cut down on the crap threads.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> That's why beginner C&C posts rarely even get a look from me.




The problem with this attitude is that those posts are getting more and more responses of the style: "good shot" from people who don't know anymore than the op since those of us who should be saying: "just another snapshot" are not doing it.

Btw, I do the same more and more.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > That's why beginner C&C posts rarely even get a look from me.
> ...


 
Maybe, "It's serious crap and don't post again until you have something better", is a better approach to this subject....or just keeping your mouth shut so you don't hurt their feelings.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

What about posts that should not be in the Noob Toob section?

Clients? Wedding? Shouldn't this be in the business section? Yep, this OP is definitely a noob:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...oto-gallery/174389-amazed-honesty-client.html 
"Photoshoot" with a model wearing no clothes and some obvious lighting going on? People section.:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...hoto-gallery/174324-model-bar-photoshoot.html

Photobag for a student...with a D700. Equipment section? Photography discussion? Not the NoobToob:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...m-photo-gallery/174259-photo-bag-student.html

This guy won a 5D MKII from selling the most something or others for his job and wants to let us know. What's that have to do with being a noob? He's obviously good at his job if he won that:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...98-those-who-wanted-know-those-who-didnt.html

And so on.


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## kundalini (Aug 14, 2009)

^^ I was going to mention a similar point of contention.  A couple of hours ago, I had a look at the Beginners forum.  On the first page of 40 threads, clearly 10 were about gear, a technique ??, a software ?? and at least one OT thread..... just by the threads titles.  Apparently the guidelines are either not researched, overlooked or completely thumbed at.  It's the kiddie pool without a lifeguard.  Anyone who's serious about learning about how to improve with photography and has half a brain, will soon enough figure out that is not where it's going to happen.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

kundalini said:


> ^^ I was going to mention a similar point of contention. A couple of hours ago, I had a look at the Beginners forum. On the first page of 40 threads, clearly 10 were about gear, a technique ??, a software ?? and at least one OT thread..... just by the threads titles. Apparently the guidelines are either not researched, overlooked or completely thumbed at. It's the kiddie pool without a lifeguard. Anyone who's serious about learning about how to improve with photography and has half a brain, will soon enough figure out that is not where it's going to happen.


 
Moderators, site admins, I'm actually being serious here for a moment, do you forum "employees" notice this trend or care? Do any of you think the board would be better off with a redesign of forums like:

bodies
lenses
technique
lighting

As it stands now, beginner and advanced are too ambiguous. I've always thought this but never mentioned it. When is the line drawn? As this has been pointed out, there are obviously many threads that end up in sections where they shouldn't be. I've seen "What camera should I buy" threads in the beginner, the advanced, the discussion, and the equipment sections simultaneously. 

It's a rule of forums that people cannot distinguish where their topics should go on their own unless it's completely spelled out to them. 

Has any of the forum management ever discussed this?

If you change it, I promise to be on my best behaviour for 24 hours.

:thumbup:


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

I do have a feeling that since the website owners changed our mods have been left a bit understaffed with the site - though out of interest anyone used the report feature on those thread to point out (nicly) that they are in the wrong section (I tend to never notice as I surf in newposts most of the time)


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> I do have a feeling that since the website owners changed our mods have been left a bit understaffed with the site - though out of interest anyone used the report feature on those thread to point out (nicly) that they are in the wrong section (I tend to never notice as I surf in newposts most of the time)


 
Would it be better for mods to have hundreds of reports (think if multiple people are reporting the same thread) or for the forum sections to be clear cut so posts don't have to be reported for being in the wrong section?

Plus, the report screen shows this:


			
				Report said:
			
		

> *Note*: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

The report screen is just the auto VBulletin one - same as the FAQ on the topbar and other things - it can be used for more than just spam. Plus I am sure I have seen the mods state that using the report feature for such use is something they would like encouraged

AS for sections they are pretty clear cut as it is - barring where the divide between beginner and more experienced is (since I don't think anyone will ever agree on a fixed boundary for that line as it is). 
However new people make mistakes - heck even old members occasionally stick threads in the wrong place. What should happen is mods move them and winge at people for having to do so - thus helping ensoure people check where they post more.

However understaffed and without reports they are rather outnumbered I feel


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> The report screen is just the auto VBulletin one - same as the FAQ on the topbar and other things - it can be used for more than just spam. Plus I am sure I have seen the mods state that using the report feature for such use is something they would like encouraged
> 
> AS for sections they are pretty clear cut as it is - barring where the divide between beginner and more experienced is (since I don't think anyone will ever agree on a fixed boundary for that line as it is).
> However new people make mistakes - heck even old members occasionally stick threads in the wrong place. What should happen is mods move them and winge at people for having to do so - thus helping ensoure people check where they post more.
> ...


 
Isn't everything in the noob, advanced, equipment, business, galleries, etc... also photographic discussion? If so, why is there a photographic discussions forum?


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

err wait you totally lost me with that last post


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## Dao (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> I do have a feeling that since the website owners changed our mods have been left a bit understaffed with the site - though out of interest anyone used the report feature on those thread to point out (nicly) that they are in the wrong section (I tend to never notice as I surf in newposts most of the time)



That was the time also a lot of great members left this forum.   I learned so much from them.  Before I join this forum, I thought learning photography was just learning how to make a good photo. (I did not go to any photography school)  After I join this forum and wow ...  discovered that there are so many things related to Photography.   From a noob not even know about the relationship between ISO/Aperture/Shutter speed, to a not-so-noob that learned something like EV value (table) Circle of Confusion, Digital Sensor, Hyperfocal Distance .. perspective distortion, Lens hood design .... plus many many more from this forum in the beginner section ..    

At that time, I was like ...  a sponge ...

But, it is all different now.  I seldom see those technical terms or concepts here.  I remember I used to google and wiki all those terms I saw here and keep finding new information.  From not understand what they were talking about to enjoy their conversation.  I can tell you it was really great in the first 6 to 8 months after I joined this forum ( i join this forum in March 2008)

I do not mean it is bad now, but it is rather different.  I really wish I know where those great members hang out now hahaha ... so that I can learn more especially on the concept side.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> err wait you totally lost me with that last post


 
*Photographic Discussions*

^^ That forum. Couldn't that essentially encompass 90% of the discussion on this site? One forum would make it much easier to mod.


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > err wait you totally lost me with that last post
> ...



Not if you read the description of it.

One of the problems is that people read less and less. If a person is in such a hurry to show us their amazing oof/didn't-really-give-a-thought-to-this-image snapshot that they won't even open the manual, do you think they will read the description of the various forums? Doubtful.

You could have the best break-up of subjects and it wouldn't make any difference if people don't read the description.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

The Canon DSLR forum has it down. They're a great resource.


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## lostprophet (Aug 14, 2009)

All the posts in this thread about needing more Mods makes me laugh, one of the first things the new owners did was to get rid of the best Mod this forum ever had, LaFoto.

Face facts people, this forum will never be as it once was.

The new owners have no interest in photography, period. Sure they may own a Point n shoot camera and hell I bet they even have a camera on their phones, but they have only one interest where this forum is concerned, money. Just look at all the adverts all over the place. How often are they on here posting photos or joining in with other members threads?  Ummm let me guess..... never??

Way, way, way back in March I posted this thread asking the new owners about the new features for subscribers that they talked about http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/feedback-suggestions/160934-new-tpf-owners.html and here we are in August and HOLY **** no replies from them! They can't even be arsed to check their own feedback section. That says it all to me.

I now post on a new little forum, 50 or so active members, so less then the number of members on here in the evenings and I get more replies but not only that I get more useful replies. 

But again I'm just wasting my time typing this out so off I go.


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

I cant argue against that LP - heck they don't have to have a major interest in photography, but some interest in the running of the forum would be nice. I do remember that they said wait whilst they reordered the membership section and perks but don't recall ever seeing a post outlining their specific plans nor what features they would be.

As for mods I do feel bad for the mods we do still have - only a handfull on a very big froum with limited timezones


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

When their member base goes else where, so will their profit.


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## kundalini (Aug 14, 2009)

I understand completely LP.  Anyone notice anything different about my avvy of late?


<------------------


The renewal notice came and was immediately binned.


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> When their member base goes else where, so will their profit.



Chase did a good job of optimizing the site for google searches - it still ranks quite high in the list and has a good name as well so chances are the influx of new members won't let up any time soon


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## JerryPH (Aug 14, 2009)

Overread said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > When their member base goes else where, so will their profit.
> ...



... and we all know how much value the vast majority of new users add to a forum.    MORE new threads on what lens or camera to buy, anyone?

A forum is born of it's members, but it is SUSTAINED by the infrastructure and strength of the senior members.  If the seniors leave and the administrative staff doesn't really care, well why not just pull the chain on this place so it all goes down the toilet now, instead of wasting time dying a slow and greuesome death?  Because even if this *is* what the owners want, before pulling the chain, they are going to suck each and every penny from any and every source they can.

When the human factor is lost in a forum replaced by the drive for dollars... this is not someplace that I want to be a part of.


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## JerryPH (Aug 14, 2009)

lostprophet said:


> I now post on a new little forum, 50 or so active members, so less then the number of members on here in the evenings and I get more replies but not only that I get more useful replies.
> 
> But again I'm just wasting my time typing this out so off I go.




Not really... PM me or email me the link.  I'm interested in checking it out, if it is not a private by invitation only kind of place?


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## PhilGarber (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> post a photo in what ever valid Photo forum it belongs in asking for C&C and post the same photo in the Noob forum at the same time. You'll get a ton of people commenting and viewing in the Noob Toob, but only maybe one or two in the actually photo forum, if you're lucky that is.



 The more advanced forums used to be busier? That's something even a (relatively) new member like myself can appreciate. It's gets pretty annoying having a photo that I felt was really good go for a 100+ views without comments. I used to think it was an indication of my skill level. Glad to see it's not just me but sad that the Beginners forum is such a sponge.


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## PhilGarber (Aug 14, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> lostprophet said:
> 
> 
> > I now post on a new little forum, 50 or so active members, so less then the number of members on here in the evenings and I get more replies but not only that I get more useful replies.
> ...



I'm interested too.. Though don't feel bad if I don't join.With everything I do, I'm terrible in the sense that I have too much brand loyalty. TPF being no exception .


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## Village Idiot (Aug 14, 2009)

Sonce I'm sure this isn't getting a lot of attention from the Noobs, 

www.mycanikon.com is a good one. Not too big and some skilled photogs there. A lot of automotive stuff, as a lot of the members are from an RSX board. I'd be willing to created an host a private forum on my Domain Invite only. Mod me is way different than general user me.


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## kundalini (Aug 14, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> Mod me is way different than general user me.


Now that's a loaded image to reconcile.

I like Dgrin and the other little one LP was talking about, but more lurker than participant atm. Nikoncafe ain't too bad either. Plus some of the local Flickr / Google groups I participate in.


EDIT:
Last check..... 3 comments / 67 views of my water drops (and one of them was mine). Phfffttt..............


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## c.cloudwalker (Aug 14, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Last check..... 3 comments / 67 views of my water drops (and one of them was mine). Phfffttt..............



Post a snapshot, you'll get more comments


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## manaheim (Aug 14, 2009)

^^^ 

Well, if a private forum or a forum with more focused/more experienced photographers is around and anyone is interested in having me along, I'd be excited.  If I don't get any invites to the party, I'll just assume everyone hates me and nip off to shoot myself.

*sob*


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## CSR Studio (Aug 15, 2009)

I was here before as Lady Photog, I left because of the stuff that was going on. I came back to see if it had changed.

I didn't tell anyone because I didn't care enough to try to change it. So, the fact that you started this thread means that you do care, it's not about attention. I'm sorry but that was a dumb comment (I am not calling anyone dumb, I said the comment was dumb).

I have decided since being back and by the way I wasn't trying to trick anyone, this is my studio name, that I will give true critique. If they don't like it that is their problem. 

Please all of the old and wise ones, please don't leave like I did. It can be nice here, we just have to make it work. Since we aren't going to get any help we should do what Mike said. Report things and be honest even if 10 people have said they liked the image, if you don't, say so, be tactful, but say so. 

What I can't get over is when I was starting out I knew my pictures were bad or just ok, why don't these people?


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## usayit (Aug 15, 2009)

manaheim said:


> I'm almost at 4,000 posts here.
> 
> I don't quite think I'm going to make it.



manaheim,  welcome to 4000+   So you did make it.


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## Overread (Aug 16, 2009)

CSR Studio said:


> What I can't get over is when I was starting out I knew my pictures were bad or just ok, why don't these people?



This "problem" I do not think is so rampent as some makeout that it is. However when there is a problem situation the thread tends to rapidly grow and turn into a fighting zone - often shifting into newmembers vs old. Its also often a result of a tone of typing rather than the actual coments as well, I have seen several experienced members whose typing language is of a form which when read can (to some) seem to be condesending, insulting or just overfocusing on the negative aspects - even though the person does not intend that to be the case (of course newer members don't realise this whilst the old do - ergo the boundaries are drawn).


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## terri (Aug 17, 2009)

Village Idiot said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > The report screen is just the auto VBulletin one - same as the FAQ on the topbar and other things - it can be used for more than just spam. Plus I am sure I have seen the mods state that using the report feature for such use is something they would like encouraged
> ...


For this:



> _Photographic Discussions A place to discuss what photography means to you: your influences, ethical challenges, abstract ideas, and other non-technical matters about photography and photographers._


It is not unreasonable or unexpected that newbies to TPF will post a technical question in here, or post about what photography means to them in the Beginner's section. It's why we try to keep the number of forums in check. Still, there will be crossovers.



> However new people make mistakes - heck even old members occasionally stick threads in the wrong place. What should happen is mods move them and winge at people for having to do so - thus helping ensoure people check where they post more.


It seems we agree on your first statement here. Where we part company is your assessment of what moderator action/reaction should be. We're not here to scold newbies for a mis-post, nor chase them around to ensure everyone's posts meet the definition of the forum they are in. That is not possible or practical, regardless of the # of moderators we have on board. 

It's a balancing act between these two things:



> * TPF staff cannot and do not review every single post, nor are we responsible for the content of any posted message. However, we reserve the right to edit, move, or delete any message whatsoever, which may be done with or without explanation.
> 
> *TPF Staff also reserve the right to move, with or without explanation, any message that appears to be posted in the wrong forum. Although every effort is made to contact the poster when this is done, this is not always possible.


I spend more time trying to explain and justify what we do and how we do it in threads like these, frankly.  This thread started as some kind of complaint about lack of good C&C forums; I addressed that (and BigMike also weighed in) a few pages ago. Now, you guys are just complaining in general about the membership. 

No offense, but from a moderator standpoint...it gets old. You don't collectively seem to want to be "member-driven" and organize; it's easier to complain vaguely about lack of moderators here and how annoying newbies can be. Come on, now! You guys don't seem to get that you're the ones who make it or break it here. Note my signature: it's been there over a year now and I remember adding it after going through a round of complaints very similar to this one. :razz:

Instead of getting annoyed, spend your next 10 posts doing something positive for the forum: tell a newbie when he's posted in the wrong forum; point another newbie to a helpful thread or article here when he posts the same question you've seen a dozen or more times. Positive, positive! :thumbup: 

If you members don't nurture the forum you claim to care so much about, you can bet it will spiral into little more than drivel from newbies and bitching from the core membership...which is what we all see so much of these days.


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## Village Idiot (Aug 17, 2009)

terri said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...


 
I know other that have posted in this thread have most likely posted 10 previous post with helpful information and this wasn't just about noobs. There are experienced members doing the same.

But from here on out, I will definitely point out that these people are posting in the wrong section...even though it probably won't do any good.

It's Monday. I knew I should have been sick today.


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## kundalini (Aug 17, 2009)

terri said:


> Instead of getting annoyed, spend your next 10 posts doing something positive for the forum: tell a newbie when he's posted in the wrong forum; point another newbie to a helpful thread or article here when he posts the same question you've seen a dozen or more times. Positive, positive! :thumbup:


In an effort to do this very same positive action, last night I scoured the Beginners thread. When I noticed the thread was probably better suited in a different forum, I responded with....


> This thread would probably been better served in the Beyond The Basics forum. I don't see any relevance to the Beginners' Forum and Photo Gallery


I edited the message to the appropiate forum. This particular thread was about portrait lighting.





So someone *read newbie* figured that I was trolling and had too much time on my hand. Their response was......


> are you just traveling around to each thread stating that its in the wrong place? lots of spare time on your hands? how is this one not a beginner question? he asking a pretty basic question about lighting.


 
When I explained that there is a lot of posts in the wrong forums, they replied back with....


> i have no problem with your post.. and I think your 100% right.. however, it just strikes me as odd that your going from post to post, posting that message, and your not even a mod... it just made me think you must have a lot of spare time on your hands.


Of course, my time is my own and can manage it any which way I care to, but it goes to the point that trying to be helpful in a succint, non-accusitory manner will still get you banging your head against the wall. The responder was not the OP either.


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## manaheim (Aug 17, 2009)

usayit said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > I'm almost at 4,000 posts here.
> ...


 
I did.  Ironically I'm being a bit of a lurker on this particular thread as it's interesting to see how this continues to evolve.

Such as kundalini's experiment...


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## terri (Aug 17, 2009)

kundalini said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of getting annoyed, spend your next 10 posts doing something positive for the forum: tell a newbie when he's posted in the wrong forum; point another newbie to a helpful thread or article here when he posts the same question you've seen a dozen or more times. Positive, positive! :thumbup:
> ...


Well, between the two of us we could probably find more head-banging threads in 5 minutes than informative ones.         But the point is, you don't have to be a moderator here to be helpful.     Heck I've been yelled at for doing the same thing and I AM a mod.          People need to get that this place does its best with informed, positive-thinking, helpful members around, the more long-term they are, the better.    You don't have to explain or apologize to anyone for being one of those.     Just smile and move on.


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## Chiller (Aug 17, 2009)

terri said:


> _Just smile and move on.[/_QUOTE]


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## Village Idiot (Aug 19, 2009)

kundalini said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of getting annoyed, spend your next 10 posts doing something positive for the forum: tell a newbie when he's posted in the wrong forum; point another newbie to a helpful thread or article here when he posts the same question you've seen a dozen or more times. Positive, positive! :thumbup:
> ...


 
I just tried this as well. The poster said they posted in the noob section as it was a pretty active place to get people looking at their post.

:er:


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## Dao (Aug 19, 2009)

I hear you VI.    You know, the OP can just say ...  "Ok, sorry I will post it to a correct section next time .."  Then everything will be fine.  Then we can focus back on the original question and move on ....

oh well ...  


Now .. I may just want to start my own photography related forum ...  <sigh>


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 13, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> 4000, WOW!Been here about a week and don't think I'll make it past 250 posts!


4000 posts later...

This is a fun little TPF Time Capsule.


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## kundalini (Sep 13, 2011)

You crack me up dude.   

I also noticed that an avatar has been added.


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## Trever1t (Sep 13, 2011)

Prophetic


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 13, 2011)

Trever1t said:


> Prophetic


Cycles.


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## Trever1t (Sep 13, 2011)

yeah, I've seen it before


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 14, 2011)

What's even more funny is that I didn't check the start date on the thread and thought Manaheim was at it again


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## bennielou (Sep 14, 2011)

Bitter, I swear, every post you post cracks me up.

Manaheim, Yes things have changed somewhat, but I've been around here for a long time (about 6-7 years if you count my old account), and I think it's just because this site has GROWN so much.    The membership here seems to double yearly.  (I'm sure one of the Mods might have more evidence of that).  And with that, you are going to get all kinds of personalities.

But Terri is right.  A lot of the bad behavior can be controlled by the members.  People that troll are put on ignore.  Offensive people, or people I feel are just plain stupid are put on ignore.  I'm probably on a whole lot of other people's ignore list. 

I actually like a good discussion.......as long as it isn't about bashing my fragile ego. :lmao:

Anyhoo, overall, I find this one of the best sites on the web.  And I'm a member of many forums.


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## kundalini (Sep 14, 2011)

bennielou said:


> ......., but I've been around here for a long time (about 6-7 years if you count my old account......


I remember that account.  You were the first one to teach me the reverse firing technique for hotshoe mounted flash.  I still use it today and I think I recently saw a thread where you do as well.   :thumbsup:


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## mishele (Sep 14, 2011)

lol What in the world are you doing dragging this stuff up again........Bitter!!  I can't believe I didn't post in this the first time around.


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## Overread (Sep 14, 2011)

Darn attention seekers bumping all these old threads up - messing up the nice ordered forum and stuffs!


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## mishele (Sep 14, 2011)

Over....we need to keep you on your toes!!!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 14, 2011)

mishele said:


> lol What in the world are you doing dragging this stuff up again........Bitter!!



Basically to show how this place run in cycles. But it was Clouds post that really made me reply. 



Overread said:


> Darn attention seekers bumping all these old threads up - messing up the nice ordered forum and stuffs!


 Are you ever going to reply to the thread of yours I bumped? Just sincerely intereseted in a follow up of your quest for art knowledge.


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> But it was Clouds post that really made me reply.



Darn, I thought it was the beautiful mustache


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## Overread (Sep 14, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > lol What in the world are you doing dragging this stuff up again........Bitter!!
> ...



hehe yes its in my tabs - somewhere - just gotta get there


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