# What should My rates be?



## racefan24 (Feb 16, 2010)

Hey guys,
I am starting to get photography job offers, but I don't have any rates. Here is a little bit of background information so maybe you can help me figure out how much my rates should be.

I have been studying photography for 4 years, finishing up my Junior Year as a photography major at Columbia College Chicago. I have taken about 16 classes on photography which includes Film, Digital, and Studio classes. Also, I am starting my 3rd season as a freelance Auto racing photographer. I have shot many events for series that include NASCAR, NHRA, Monster Jam, and the World Of Outlaws.

As for equipment, I use a canon Rebel XTI with just the kit lenses and a 50-250mm telephoto lens, all only f4 (I know I need better equipment).

With that bit of information, how much should I charge???


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## o hey tyler (Feb 16, 2010)

I wouldn't charge anything if you haven't had experience with portraiture. You should focus on building a portfolio first.


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## robbie_vlad (Feb 16, 2010)

It depends on what you are shooting, whether you are responsible for printing, etc.


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## Tulsa (Feb 16, 2010)

Your going to want a bigger portfolio than that, unless your clients will be Monster Truck promoters only. With that said, what kind of jobs are you being offered? If this is something you want to do professionally, when do you plan on upgrading to pro gear?


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## gsgary (Feb 16, 2010)

You are very limited with the lens you have


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## KmH (Feb 16, 2010)

In 4 years of study I would have hoped that the business of photography would have been covered.

There are different pricing models for photography:

Commercial
Retail
Editorial
Commercial and Editorial photography involve use licensing for various specific uses (advertising (print, TV), annual reports, web usage, etc), sizes, number of publications printed, geographical areas, time frame of the use license, etc.

A creative fee is usually charged to cover the photographers time, talent, and the costs associated with each shoot (models/talent, weather days, catering, location scouts, equipment rentals, etc). A pre-shoot, line item estimate and a line item invoice payable within a 90 day period are pretty standard.

Retail photography usually entails a sitting fee, a number of print/CD packages, and a range of specialty products from Photo framing to refrigerator magnets.

How does all of that relate to the 'photography job offers' you have gotten?


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## matfoster (Feb 16, 2010)

decide how much an hour of your time is worth. establish all operational costs involved in a task. guestimate how much business you can expect over a period of time. divide the cost of your tools by that number.  do the same for promotional budget. do the same for periodic replacement/upgrade of tools. there's your rate. if it seems unrealistically high, then simplify your product/service or expand your prospective customer-base to reduce the operational cost-per-unit.


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## clbd39 (Feb 16, 2010)

> the view from my deck..... okay maybe not, but this picture shows how well i can use the selection tools and blend 2 photos together



Er... I would definitely add to the portfolio and take away anything that is "snapshot" like... there are only a few that I would personally keep...


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## AUS-10 (Feb 16, 2010)

Your pictures aren't THAT good. Not as good as I expected. I personally wouldn't charge anything for something like that. IJS.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Listen people I only asked a simple question. I KNOW I don't have a good enough portfolio to be considered a professional photographer, but come on don't bash me (constructive criticism is different than what you all are doing). You attack me not realizing that I am not a professional photographer, I am not looking to make a living with charging for photo's right now. I don't have the equipment. Obviously none of you respect auto racing photography. Please research auto racing photography before completely bashing my work. I am glad I posted this because I was considering just maybe to go into a more fine art way with photography in the future, but I can see that most photographers in that industry are rude and rather bash their fellow photographers who are NEW than help them. 
 Tulsa: My goal is to be in the Auto racing field so naturally my portfolio will be filled with racing photos. I am upgrading to a canon 50d and the 70-200 f2.8 lens by the end of the year. My portfolio is more about showcasing the skills I may possess than amazing work. I bought my first camera not even two years ago so I don't have much work as of yet.

AUS-10. Thats a really rude comment. If your gonna say something is bad have the balls to say WHY. Not just O your work sucks.

In closing again this forum is for people who need help, I was hoping to get help not be ridiculed. If I asked for my work to be criticized then I would have asked. I asked for help and other than complex answers ( I do appreciate those). To the rest of you who like to say if something isn't good enough for you without giving a reason and offering how you can better it (constructive criticism), leave us newbies alone!!!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 17, 2010)

...Gentlemen, start your engines.


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## ks0385 (Feb 17, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ...Gentlemen, start your engines.


 
Hehe... Cuz he shoots Auto Racing.

:lmao:


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## gsgary (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Listen people I only asked a simple question. I KNOW I don't have a good enough portfolio to be considered a professional photographer, but come on don't bash me (constructive criticism is different than what you all are doing). You attack me not realizing that I am not a professional photographer, I am not looking to make a living with charging for photo's right now. I don't have the equipment. Obviously none of you respect auto racing photography. Please research auto racing photography before completely bashing my work. I am glad I posted this because I was considering just maybe to go into a more fine art way with photography in the future, but I can see that most photographers in that industry are rude and rather bash their fellow photographers who are NEW than help them.
> Tulsa: My goal is to be in the Auto racing field so naturally my portfolio will be filled with racing photos. I am upgrading to a canon 50d and the 70-200 f2.8 lens by the end of the year. My portfolio is more about showcasing the skills I may possess than amazing work. I bought my first camera not even two years ago so I don't have much work as of yet.
> 
> AUS-10. Thats a really rude comment. If your gonna say something is bad have the balls to say WHY. Not just O your work sucks.
> ...



Ok then i have looked at your auto racing shots and you have a hell of a long way to go before you even think about charging probably another 2 years they all look very static


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## KmH (Feb 17, 2010)

You asked a question that is not simple and is impossible to answer with any authority. And, you did so in a public online forum. You have no control over the responses and need to pick and choose which replies are worth while to you.

A certain amount of business knowledge is necesary to accurately set your pricing, which is why most structured photography programs include business classes that cover how to manage the financial aspects of running a business of any kind. 

But, you want some sort of an answer so....Charge $35.00 per hour. I haven't looked at your photos.


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## GeneralBenson (Feb 17, 2010)

Apparently the consensus seems to be that you shouldn't be charging for the quality of work that you are putting out.  I don't know where everyone is looking to see it, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.  If you work isn't good enough, you shouldn't charge for it, and if you shouldn't charge for it, then you shouldn't be 'working'.  You should be focusing on skill development with personal projects and doing things for friends and family only.  Don't take the popular road of just working for free until you're good enough to charge, because in the long and short run, you do yourself, you 'clients' and the industry a large disservice.  

here's the other thing.  If you've been studying and doing photography for 3 years and are still putting out images that are at or below average, then you need to take a serious look at the program you're in of you chosen career path.  I'm not saying that to be mean, but I honestly think that is the truth.  I would say the same thing to my closest friend.  I think one of the biggest downfalls with our current Master's degree based educational system and 'you can be all you can be and anything you want' American mentality, is that it makes it to easy for people to end up never being anything more than mediocre in a field they never should have been involved in, while never finding what they actually are good at.  

Like I said, grain of salt.


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## GeneralBenson (Feb 17, 2010)

ks0385 said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > ...Gentlemen, start your engines.
> ...



Hahahaha.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks KMH. I had a link up for my portfolio, but took it down. Based on answers alot of people obviously do not respect Auto Racing Photography. I respect all forms of photography, I would expect the same from others. I know this is a public forum, I just expected a little bit of respect. I mean I wouldn't bash without giving a reason. 

Also, if anybody is basing their opinions of my work off of the link I have on my profile, those pictures are just proofs. It is just a way for me to sell a few photo's to drivers. They look at the photo's, tell me which ones they like and then I edit the photo's for them.


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## gsgary (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Thanks KMH. I had a link up for my portfolio, but took it down. Based on answers alot of people obviously do not respect Auto Racing Photography. I respect all forms of photography, I would expect the same from others. I know this is a public forum, I just expected a little bit of respect. I mean I wouldn't bash without giving a reason.
> 
> Also, if anybody is basing their opinions of my work off of the link I have on my profile, those pictures are just proofs. It is just a way for me to sell a few photo's to drivers. They look at the photo's, tell me which ones they like and then I edit the photo's for them.




It's not we don't respect auto racing it's just the shots are not very exciting or dynamic you need to be shooting from better angles and getting in closer


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Also, if anybody is basing their opinions of my work off of the link I have on my profile, those pictures are just proofs. It is just a way for me to sell a few photo's to drivers. They look at the photo's, tell me which ones they like and then I edit the photo's for them.


 
So, you came here, and gave a link to unfinished work, and expected magical answers? Then you bash the users of this forum, when it was you who failed at giving adequate information to even get some type of "serious" answer.

Well played.

Back to my


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## Charles89 (Feb 17, 2010)

Im a college student in Buisiness Administration. Im new to photography tho. (its been a year).

But I can give you one advice. Dont give, unless you really think the actual client will refer you. Do you understand what I mean.

Not charging for something would be a marketing strategy, this strategy is good if you think your client will refer you. If he doesnt refer you, well you lost your time, energy and potential money. Good referers would included famillies that want a portrait since they will hang the photo in there house and friends will see and ask where they got it done. 

Also, if your work is bad you have to charge. (If its not good you wont get refered).

I would like to see your photos. But I dont know where to check...


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

I will post a link to some of my work, I originally took it down because people were bashing it. If you would like to give constructive criticism I would love it, but don't just say it sucks. Realize I am working with a XTI and will be purchasing a 50D very soon.

Brett Moist&#039;s Photos - Brett Moist Photography | Facebook


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## iBats (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Listen people I only asked a simple question. I KNOW I don't have a good enough portfolio to be considered a professional photographer, but come on don't bash me (constructive criticism is different than what you all are doing). You attack me not realizing that I am not a professional photographer, I am not looking to make a living with charging for photo's right now. I don't have the equipment. Obviously none of you respect auto racing photography. Please research auto racing photography before completely bashing my work. I am glad I posted this because I was considering just maybe to go into a more fine art way with photography in the future, but I can see that most photographers in that industry are rude and rather bash their fellow photographers who are NEW than help them.
> Tulsa: My goal is to be in the Auto racing field so naturally my portfolio will be filled with racing photos. I am upgrading to a canon 50d and the 70-200 f2.8 lens by the end of the year. My portfolio is more about showcasing the skills I may possess than amazing work. I bought my first camera not even two years ago so I don't have much work as of yet.
> 
> AUS-10. Thats a really rude comment. If your gonna say something is bad have the balls to say WHY. Not just O your work sucks.
> ...




good call bro


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## gsgary (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> I will post a link to some of my work, I originally took it down because people were bashing it. If you would like to give constructive criticism I would love it, but don't just say it sucks. Realize I am working with a XTI and will be purchasing a 50D very soon.
> 
> Brett Moist's Photos - Brett Moist Photography | Facebook



I used to take sports shots with a 10D that probably cannot focus as well as a XTI, any camera can shoot sports if you know what the camera can do


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## JayLPhoto (Feb 17, 2010)

Keep your head up, and don't let people get you down about your work.  Not everyone is going to be a fan.  Keep shooting, thats the only way you're going to improve.  Shooting what you love will help also.

As far as my opinion as to what to charge.....I really have none.  Just because I know nothing about the racing market or how much it would even be worth.

Good luck!


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## eric-holmes (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Realize I am working with a XTI and will be purchasing a 50D very soon.



I was once told, "The camera doesn't make the picture, the photographer does." I believe they were right. I don't blame my baseball glove when I miss a ground ball. I don't blame my bat when I swing and miss.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Brett Moist's Photos - Brett Moist Photography | Facebook


 
Isn't this the link from before...of the unfinished work?


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## AUS-10 (Feb 17, 2010)

Dont get butt hurt cause I gave you my honest opinion. It has nothing to do with not appreciating the subject..... Its the composition, or lack thereof, in your shots that I'm talking about. I just expected alot more from someone that is paying for an education in that field and still isnt producing interesting photos at the least. Dont take it personally bro. If I asked that question on the internet I would expect the honest truth not sugar-coated BS that people often blow up newbs asses. And that teaches them nothing.


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## Overread (Feb 17, 2010)

Threads like this often leave me almost speachless 


Ok I'm going to ignor the pricing request - not out of disrespect but because I honestly have no idea as to pricings at all. I'm also going to try and ignor most of the snark and quick critical quips that have appeard. Honestly guys some of you commenting here I KNOW can do a lot better than you show - short simple and harsh might be very honest and true but it also leaves little for a person to work with and improve upon and when its given by someone who is a stranger (and who is also in no position of respect) it boards on just being plain rude.

So my advice to the OP - the thread has moved away from pricings and back into your photography, so take this as a message regarding your works and others viewing of them. Pick a few of your best shots - process them as you would for a client and put them into a thread. Have a look at the "getting C&C" link in my sig and put that info in as well and then see what responces and advice you can get back from that.
Hopefully you can get some guidance and advice as to where weaknesses are and how to improve upon them in both shooting style and compostion. 

Dare I even suggest that some posting here in this thread might even suggest some works that the OP could look at/study to broaden their understanding.


In closing - keep shooting - listen but don't let the harsh comments get you down - keep shooting and improving


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yea but not saying what they are doing right is just as bad. There should be a balance. When I give advice to somebody on ANYTHING, even if what they are doing is **** I always help by stating what they should do to get better and what they are doing right to make sure they don't get discouraged. If somebody can't hit a baseball with a bat and you say they suck at hitting a ball, you can't expect that they will get better. 

Also with that portfolio, it is not a professional portfolio, it is just so showcase what I can do at this point. I am not looking to start my career right now. I also believe that some people that are giving criticism are putting me up to their professional standards. I am NOT a professional so please understand that while looking at my portfolio. 

Eric-Holmes, I agree with you, maybe it is just me and my 50-250mm f4-5.6 lens. it is nearly impossible for me to manually focus on a race car during a race when they are going 150-200mph. I have always been told that it is the glass that is making my photo's fuzzy, then again I could be wrong.


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## AUS-10 (Feb 17, 2010)

If a couple pictures were posted I would gladly comment on them and help the dude out. But since only a link to a facebook page was posted its kinda hard to critique 20+ photos


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanx for the advice OVERREAD and I am actually going to hold onto that little thread you included, that is VERY informative. I am also new to posting about these things so that information will go a long way for me. Thanks!


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## AUS-10 (Feb 17, 2010)

:hippie:


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## Charles89 (Feb 17, 2010)

For some reason my shots always look bad when I upload them to facebook, try Flickr.


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## Overread (Feb 17, 2010)

Actually that is an important point - facebook is not the best place for a photographer, the terms and conditions of the site have some nasty wording in them that means they (facebook) can commercially use your images without your say so. They claim that this is something that they do not and will not do however it would not be in their TC if it was not something they had in mind.

Flickr is far far safter and better in terms of its terms and conditions as well as in its overall layout and features. Image quality should be about the same however many people do not sharpen images after resizing for the internet (or they let the uploading site do the resizing automatically). However only flickr does resizing images well (infact it does it very well) most of the others will soften the images as they resize.


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## Formatted (Feb 17, 2010)

Can you post some of your sample work?!


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## Charles89 (Feb 17, 2010)

Overread said:


> Actually that is an important point - facebook is not the best place for a photographer, the terms and conditions of the site have some nasty wording in them that means they (facebook) can commercially use your images without your say so. They claim that this is something that they do not and will not do however it would not be in their TC if it was not something they had in mind.
> 
> Flickr is far far safter and better in terms of its terms and conditions as well as in its overall layout and features. Image quality should be about the same however many people do not sharpen images after resizing for the internet (or they let the uploading site do the resizing automatically). However only flickr does resizing images well (infact it does it very well) most of the others will soften the images as they resize.



I hadnt tought about that, thanks for letting me know. In the end facebook just makes your photo less good tho.


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## Tulsa (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> My portfolio is more about showcasing the skills I may possess than amazing work. I bought my first camera not even two years ago so I don't have much work as of yet.



2 years is a good amount of time to learn how to shoot great photos, specially if you are going to school for it.




racefan24 said:


> Also with that portfolio, it is not a professional portfolio, it is just so showcase what I can do at this point. I am not looking to start my career right now.



If you are not looking to start a career right now, then why would you be charging for work that is not professional? You do not have to be a pro and career photographer to provide quality images. 

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, DONT CHARGE A THING...YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IT.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I bought my first SLR camera almost two years ago. My first couple of years in classes I was using just a point and shoot camera and a canon k2 and only used automatic functions because I didn't know any better. I'm not looking to charge a **** load, but I am forking out money like crazy for travel and other expenses, theres nothing wrong with asking for a little bit. I do believe that some of my photo's are good quality and good enough to sell and I stand by that! If you don't believe that they are, state the photo and why


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 17, 2010)

Let's put the onus on you, and post up 3 photos you want critiqued on. Cuz, you know, that's how this place works. Finished images. Images you want to sell. You've only been asked to do so, what, three times?


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## Charles89 (Feb 17, 2010)

The Jew in jeweler makes me laugh.

Hes right tho.

-Post photos directly here instead of making us go to your facebook. 
-Use Flickr 

Its hard to critique when we have to go to another page. 

I like the photo with the racers, girls and champagne bursts. (this one was easy to identify as its the only one like that, but you have lots of photos of cars. What if I told you : the photo with the racing car is ''enter critique here''.


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## Tulsa (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I bought my first SLR camera almost two years ago.



It was pretty clear. 

Lets see your top 3 photos, that will help.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

I would but like I said I am new to posting on here so I really don't know how to post photo's on this.


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## KmH (Feb 17, 2010)

Voila!

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...forum-functions-pictoral-guide-using-tpf.html

And that's the way you post photo's on most forums too.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

It doesn't have anywhere where I can add attachments like it is shown on that thread.


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## Tulsa (Feb 17, 2010)

Which one are you using? I use photobucket, click upload image, save, click image, then below it, highlight and copy the IMG link, and put it in a reply here.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks that works. Here are what I believe to be my top 3:


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## JayLPhoto (Feb 17, 2010)

the second one would be really cool if composed a bit differently, for a race factor, I'd think the first one would be good.  I know if I was the driver I'd be stoked on it.  The 3rd I think should be sharper and looks like it has a lot of noise.


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## KmH (Feb 17, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> It doesn't have anywhere where I can add attachments like it is shown on that thread.


:lmao: :violin::lmao:​


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## Tulsa (Feb 17, 2010)

1, not bad, I like it.
2, while the idea is cool, the composition could be better, and it looks staged.
3, I agree, looks noisy, not wild about all the sources of light.


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## racefan24 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes you like my racing photo lol. The other two were taken during my first studio class. I am new to that but learning. I agree that #3 is noisy and blurry. How would you change the composition of #2?


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## WilliamH (Feb 17, 2010)

Just an opinion here.... but I think you really need to be a bit more thick skinned in this industry. I'm not saying that your photos are bad, but I'm not saying that they're great. I think it would help a lot if you outlined what exactly you wanted to do with your photography. From what I understand you do a lot of racing photography, but is that all you want to do or do you want to shoot other things as well? (i.e. portraits, landscapes, etc...) 
    I think a fair statement would be that if you're looking to charge for your photos, you really should build a better portfolio. Take your time with this and enjoy the ride. I've personally been trying to build mine for a while, and I've learned a lot from just getting out there and shooting. 
    I also have to agree with another poster (I don't feel like going back and looking at who said it to be perfectly honest) who said something to the effect of "It's not the camera, it's the guy behind the glass". You have a capable camera, so that's not the issue. Like I said, I'm not dogging your work here, I'm just stating my opinion. I'm by no means a professional. Not to say I don't want to be, but I'm not there yet either. Just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. 
    One more thing and I swear I'll stop this rant. Going back to what I said about being thick skinned... would you rather have someone on a forum tell you that your work sucks, or a client who's just paid you $35 per hour? I'm not saying that it will happen, but again in this industry you have to remember that people are paying you for services that you have told them you can provide.  If your work isn't up to their expectations, they're going to tell you that and possibly be pissed off about it. Most people here, from what I've seen thus far, are here to help you out  and have you avoid that situation. That's why quite a few people have talked about portfolio building. It's important. 
    I know I was all over on this post, but oh well. Just get out there and keep shooting and learning. 

~William


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## gsgary (Feb 18, 2010)

The first shot is just too static, what shutter speed did you use


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## DennyCrane (Feb 18, 2010)

The first one shows me nothing that impresses a feeling of "race car in motion". It might as well be a car with a jackstand under the front end where someone spun the wheel and snapped a picture. 

The second, while an interesting subject, is far too cluttered. Everything that's not the subject distracts the viewer from the subject.

The 3rd is too dark and appears to be either too low a resolution, or too close a crop.


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## tdiprincess (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm also a noob... IMHO... When people ask me to do any picture taking, at this point, for functions such as formals or weddings.. I charge for a the price of the paper, shipping and like 50cents extra. I generally end up making about $20-30 depending on how many pictures they wanted... I also either give the picture in person or send it to them, so sometimes I make even less. 
I have only done 1 function thus far. I have another one coming up. 
As for taking pictures of racing images, portraits, IMHO, I would probably do about the same until enough people started asking for portraits, or I started having repeat customers. Something to tell me that my pictures are valuable.. and then I would slowly increase my prices as there was more demand...
This is all IMHO, this is how I do it and I will probably do this for some time to come... The only equipment I've had was an old 35mm film canon from the 70's, my current kodak P&S and I'll be getting a Nikon D70s in the mail today.. I have had no formal education and am just starting to learn basic techniques.. so 1/2 a grain of salt please

IMHO Your pictures are good.. I like the idea of #2.. a different angle could've gotten a little more creative, but it's neat. The racing picture doesn't speak to me. It's good. Looking at it a while you can tell that the car is in action, but a different angle may have helped it a bit. The last one is cool, It's a bit dark IMO. If you played around with it some more you could get a more creative angle...
Like I said above, I don't know very much about photography, please take everything I say with 1/2 a grain of salt...


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## DennyCrane (Feb 18, 2010)

In any business, you need to factor 2 things into pricing. Materials and labor. A general rule of thumb is doubling your actual cost for materials (including taxes, shipping, etc). The hard part is labor. You have to decide what your time is worth. And there's a lot of time involved here. Your travel to and from where you're shooting, the time you spend taking the pictures, the time in post processing, the time preparing the prints... the list goes on. 

The surest way to the poor house is to give your time away.


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## Charles89 (Feb 18, 2010)

WilliamH said:


> Just an opinion here.... but I think you really need to be a bit more thick skinned in this industry. I'm not saying that your photos are bad, but I'm not saying that they're great. I think it would help a lot if you outlined what exactly you wanted to do with your photography. From what I understand you do a lot of racing photography, but is that all you want to do or do you want to shoot other things as well? (i.e. portraits, landscapes, etc...)
> I think a fair statement would be that if you're looking to charge for your photos, you really should build a better portfolio. Take your time with this and enjoy the ride. I've personally been trying to build mine for a while, and I've learned a lot from just getting out there and shooting.
> I also have to agree with another poster (I don't feel like going back and looking at who said it to be perfectly honest) who said something to the effect of "It's not the camera, it's the guy behind the glass". You have a capable camera, so that's not the issue. Like I said, I'm not dogging your work here, I'm just stating my opinion. I'm by no means a professional. Not to say I don't want to be, but I'm not there yet either. Just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
> One more thing and I swear I'll stop this rant. Going back to what I said about being thick skinned... would you rather have someone on a forum tell you that your work sucks, or a client who's just paid you $35 per hour? I'm not saying that it will happen, but again in this industry you have to remember that people are paying you for services that you have told them you can provide.  If your work isn't up to their expectations, they're going to tell you that and possibly be pissed off about it. Most people here, from what I've seen thus far, are here to help you out  and have you avoid that situation. That's why quite a few people have talked about portfolio building. It's important.
> ...



You got to remember most people dont know sh!t about photography.

Some people that are not my friends(meaning they dont wanna be nice), but that have seen some of my shots sometime come to me and are like : omg your photos are ****ing great. And ill post the said photo here and it wont get any comment or will get negative comments. I doubt the client would say his work sucks from what Ive seen of his work.


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## DennyCrane (Feb 18, 2010)

There's a wealth of great photographers out there and it's very easy to become a good judge of who's good and who isn't simply by looking at enough portfolios. And smart people looking to hire a photographer do exactly that. It's better to find out now what you're doing wrong than to sit and wonder why you're not getting repeat business... or worse, no business at all.


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## GeneralBenson (Feb 18, 2010)

DennyCrane said:


> There's a wealth of great photographers out there and it's very easy to become a good judge of who's good and who isn't simply by looking at enough portfolios. And smart people looking to hire a photographer do exactly that. It's better to find out now what you're doing wrong than to sit and wonder why you're not getting repeat business... or worse, no business at all.



+10 million


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## Charles89 (Feb 18, 2010)

Indeed.


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## GraphicsGeek (Feb 18, 2010)

Your race photos are very static and show no movement at all. It appears as if the cars just positioned that way and you are taking photos. There is no movement in the wheels or in the background. Try using a slower shutter speed and pan your body with the car as its going around the track. That should give you some movement.

The second photo is really busy. While I see your intention, but, to an outsiders eye, I get extremely lost in it trying to figure out whats going on. A person who has no idea what they are looking at will skip right over that photo.

The third is interesting. While it does start to tell a story, its a little blury and noisy. As far as composition goes, try not having everything in the middle of the photo. Think outside of the box and youll be surprised what you come up with.

All in all, you have some potential. I, personally, wouldnt charge right now and would just keep shooting and getting some experience. Once you learn how to get the image you want without using the auto mode, you may want to start thinking about charging. Until then, have fun learning from people with more experience. Dont get offended when someone craps on your work. You're young and you're going to go through alot of rejection throughout your life in many different aspects. Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt listen to the criticism.


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## GraphicsGeek (Feb 18, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Thanks that works. Here are what I believe to be my top 3:



Is that a person's hand with a clamp on it?


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## Sirashley (Feb 18, 2010)

Racefan--- I am going to offer you a tremendous piece of advice... This was the same advice that was given to me when I contemplated doing photography for a wage... Let me preface this by saying that Safari has been buggy since the facebook update, and I can't view your photos at full size, so I can't really critique them... Of the three that you posted, the first one is a decent shot, and I could see it as an editorial image. The last two images really aren't at the level of being paid for...with that said...

Ready... Here it comes... 

Go to shutterstock.com or Dreamstime.com These are sites for selling stock photography. You upload your photos and can make money as people download them to use commercially. Here is the one catch... The photos have to be flawless, well composed, not overdone, no noise, extremely sharp, and well... like I said, flawless... When 7 out of the 10 photos you submit there get accepted, then you will be ready to start charging for your services... Because that is the quality of work that one would expect when paying for photographs...

Now with that said, I have seen some work from other photographers who do charge ( and they are not cheap) and I thought it was flat out garbage and couldn't believe the client actually paid for them... Remember, its all relative, and at the end of the day, its a matter of whether your client is happy. 

Here is are two examples of shots that I have had downloaded from stock sites












Now, of the 20 shots I've uploaded... I've had 4 accepted, and that includes the two above... The two above are the only ones that people have downloaded... 

So anyway, the point of this was, I think for you, stock sites may be a great to test the waters. I too have had offers from people to do photography of their pets and children. I did some of a friends dog, and they wanted to pay me for this pic






I was, "Don't be ridiculous, plus, I hate selective de-sats, but they loved it and were willing to pay for it... I just gave it to them...

Anyway, I digress, again...LOL... So... perhaps try your luck at Stocksites, this should give you an idea of the level that you need to be... Lastly, this summer I may apprentice with some wedding photographers who I know... I don't get paid of course, but the amount of knowledge I will learn while being in the field and actually getting experience will far outweigh the money aspect. That may be a good idea for you too... Good luck and keep us posted...


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## Formatted (Feb 18, 2010)

> I hate selective de-sats,



That would have been a pretty nice shot if you had the feet in! But the first 2 are nice...


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## racefan24 (Feb 18, 2010)

GraphicsGeek, That is a photo of my buddy working on his mini sprint car, he lost both of his legs, his arm and arts of the remaining fingers. That is a claw that he uses every day. Personally I am pretty much looking to be a racing photographer and I here you guys that my composition needs to be improved and that is one of my big goals this year is to do that. As far as stock sites, most stock sites I have seen with racing images on them, everything is removed. Sponsers, driver name, everything is taken off and I personally think doing that to a racing image just isn't right (but thats just me). Thanks you guys for your input!


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## Overread (Feb 18, 2010)

Stock site are a bit of a trap - if you only use them lightly you generally won't make much if any money out of them - even if you sell quite a few images. You have to sell a lot through stock to make the money because each image only sells for a tiny amount. This means that to make a proper earning off a stock site you have to put a lot up for sale and that means a lot of professional grade work that will sell (and not just be good) - contributing to the stock site really is a professional level job with all the hours that entails. Some have made it lucky by having a few or just one iconic image that sells like wildfire but they are very rare exceptions.

There are some stock sites that give more for your money (there are normally the more well established stock sites) however as per the higher price the image quality must be flawless.


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## bgaideski (Feb 18, 2010)

I have had a similar problem recently. I do not know what to charge for my work either. I spoke with a professional photographer, one whom I have quite a bit of respect for, and he insists that until I consider myself a pro, that I charge nothing. He says to treat it like a learning opportunity. He also mentioned that once I shoot about 80 - 90% 'good' shots, then I will be ready to charge.

I agree, and disagree with him. My main dilemma is that I really prefer to take pictures of nature. Macro shots are one of my favs. What tends to happen is my friends and in some cases acquaintances will regularly ask me to take pictures of their newborn, or to take family pictures for christmas, or to shoot their wedding. The problem is I don't even really like to take those pictures. I do it to get some experience because I feel like it will help me in the long run. But it really is a big pain in the ***. Especially weddings because those are an ungodly amount of work/effort. 

Recently my Ex-Girlfriends sister asked me to shoot her wedding reception. I really didnt want to, and knew the only reason she was asking me was because she didn't want to get charged a huge (to her, ungodly) amount of money. No offense to you pros out there, because i know the work and time that goes into it, but your high prices are exactly the reason why people like racefan24 and I get people that ask us to take pictures for them. They want pictures taken on a nice camera, but can't afford to pay a pro.

racefan24, i've noticed the same thing you have. some people on the internets are rude. You really just have to get used to it. 

Anyone of your friends will look at your pictures and say there amazing, nearly half of the people on this forum will think they are ****. It's all based on who you surround yourself with. A lot of these people are pros and are used to taking/seeing amazing photographs. Most of your friends can't determine a good photo from a great one. I'm not trying to give you crap, because my friends are the same way, but you should always keep that in mind.


As for your price here is what I have decided to do. Well a couple of options I have played with anyway.
1.) If someone looks at your work, likes your work, and wants you to work for them. I would charge them an hourly wage, or a basic 'shooting fee'.
2.) If you feel under confident about your work, and you think the customer could be disappointed, you could try shooting it for free, aka experience shooting. Then if they end up liking your work, charge them afterwords. If they offer you too little, or don't want to pay what you think is reasonable. You don't have to sell them your photos.
3.) Until you are more experienced you could shoot for free, and then just charge for the prints. Yes, you could lose money and waste time doing this. However, you still have the prints, and can use them in your portfolio. 

I hope my non-pro advice helps you along the way.

I'm charging $50 - $100 for that wedding im shooting in march. The money basically cost the gas to get there, with a little extra added. In the end she will be getting a disk with all the images I took, with no PP. If she wants me to do extra work on them (assuming im not feeling generous), she can pay extra for that. 

One thing you do want to make sure doesn't happen... Everyone who knows you now knows you have a nice camera ... Don't get sucked into doing everything for them for free. Thats my biggest trouble. Telling people no. How do you say someone you have known your whole life that you don't have time to throw away a whole Saturday so that they can get their photos and not have to pay for them? If you find that out let me know.


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## bgaideski (Feb 18, 2010)

To sum it up...

Just charge what you feel your pictures are worth. People might pay it, people might not.

Most professional photographers won't agree with this point. Its business. If a pro charges $1000 for a shoot, and an amateur only wants $150, you can see how the amateur could be cutting into the pros profits. When it comes down to it, I just feel that not everyone wants the best picture in the world, sometimes people will sacrifice quality to save money.

But in the words of my professional photographer friend... 'People who aren't pros and are charging for their work are killing the industry'.... It's up to you weather you think that is true or not.


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## DennyCrane (Feb 18, 2010)

And you get what you pay for.


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## erichards (Feb 18, 2010)

On the issue of what to charge... figure out how many prints you are going to have to make (did you offer proofs??) and double that...that is roughly what you should charge for your first time. Since you are not professional, they have (I'm assuming) seen your work and liked it enough to hire you, your gear you use should then be a somewhat non-issue (as that is what you've shot with before).  Then if they decide to purchase prints past that double the price of processing and you'll get paid for your time and the prints.  When you decide to go all out professional check what others are charging and go from there.


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## Sirashley (Feb 18, 2010)

Formatted said:


> > I hate selective de-sats,
> 
> 
> 
> That would have been a pretty nice shot if you had the feet in! But the first 2 are nice...



You know, that does bring up an interesting point... I think we as photographers need to realize that the people we are shooting these photos for, are not photographers... and to them, the emotional attachment to the photo is far more important than the technical aspects... 

I make this point because the fact that the dogs paws are cut off in that shot always bothered me... To her owners, they could care less... You see, that is her favorite toy, and she always flops up on the back of the couch to show it off... That moment and her expression were what was important to them... They could care less about her paws being cut off... So in that respect, I captured what they wanted out of a photograph... Perhaps that is truly what is important when you are being payed, simply capturing the moment that the customer wants... I mean, at the end of the day, its their money, and if they are happy with the shots, isn't that what's really important??? Ultimately, shouldn't that be how we measure one's success as a paid photographer, by how well they meet their customers needs???


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 18, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I bought my first SLR camera almost two years ago. My first couple of years in classes I was using just a point and shoot camera and a canon k2 and only used automatic functions because I didn't know any better.



Just so I'm clear.  You got through 2 years of classes without learning how to use a manual camera?  And you used a p&s in photography classes?  Something doesn't add up.


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## SoonerBJJ (Feb 18, 2010)

racefan24 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have been studying photography for 4 years, finishing up my Junior Year as a photography major at Columbia College Chicago. I have taken about 16 classes on photography which includes Film, Digital, and Studio classes. Also, I am starting my 3rd season as a freelance Auto racing photographer.


 
So I'm going to answer my own question.  You claim to have been studying photography for 4 years, yet for the first 2 years of study you didn't know how to use a manual camera.  This seems a MAJOR problem to me on several levels.

1.  I would ask for my money back from the school.  If you managed to get through film and digital photography classes without knowing how to operate your camera then your school has done you a major disservice.  I thought these courses required cameras capable of manual operation.  Again... something doesn't add up.

2.  I question your dedication to photography.  Most of us learned how to use our cameras from the internet or a book and then went out to practice.  You claim to be studying photography yet you couldn't make the effort to do at least this?

If I were a potential client and you told me this I would dismiss you immediately.  I took the time to learn how to use my camera and I didn't waste 2 years of school to do it.  I don't believe you care about your photography.  Whether or not that may be true, that's what your story tells me and perception is everything.

Sorry, but if all this is true then it is pretty sad.  Your school ripped you off and you don't care enough about what you're doing to invest the time to learn the fundamentals of the craft.

But I'm still not buying it.


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## Overread (Feb 19, 2010)

Sirashley - you raise and excelent point about photography and the difference between commercial work and the ravings of internet amateurs (). It's no valid excuse to not shoot well for a client nor is it something that a lesser photographer can fall back on in defence, but it is a sign and a reminder that we as amateurs often demand perfection in the works of others (especailly when they have the cheek to charge for it).

Also I would like to remind some that (as far as I can work out in this thread) the photographer in question is not a wedding photographer. He is not building a site and charging clients money before they see the results of his efforts, he is shooting trackside work and then approaching the drivers and patrons for sales. He might also be on contract or agreement to take such shots at the tracks (and for sales I would expect that he is at least under licence to sell the images) but that would still have to be done based on his track record (if you will) and the images he has already produced.

I do have to say (honestly) that I think there is some very strong bashing going on here when the OP is not displaying a horrific level of photography. Ok shots and not world class I will admit and there is certainly some room to improve. He would do himself a great service if he were to be more ruthless in forming his portfolio as there is a lot of range in what he is showing - the meerkat shot for example is noticably soft and blurred (dispite being cute) whilst on the second page he displays a far sharper and more impressive shot of an owl - still there is room to improve of course.

I would also draw your attention to the wording of his original post which clearly states that he is already being approached by patrons and that he needed adivice on what price to put on his work to them. This means that (in the eyes of others) his work is already deemed enough to be paid for. 


Addressing his course description - its vague and I have no idea what level the course is aimed at nor at what kind of ages the course is taught to. I know that many in GCSE and A-level can get by with even just a point and shoot to start with and a bridge camera to follow - a DSLR or SLR not being a key requirement. He also says he only bought a DSLR 2 years ago but makes no mention that that was his first experience using one. 
Lets not move things over to a hacking apart of his life history - its at this point mostly irrelvant to the topics at hand. 

Also to the OP - do give that thead of mine a read again - then go through your work and be ruthless! Pick out a few of your very best work ( I would avoid any studio shots where you were perhaps advised or aided significantly in the lighting setup - stick to work you know exactly how to do yourself). Give it the description, the background and such and see what advice you can draw out of people. A focused separate discussion on this will serve a lot better than trying to continue in this thread (as its structure is somewhat broken as of now into several mini topics).


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## racefan24 (Feb 19, 2010)

You are right there is a hole in the story. Those two years were at a community college in BEGINNING photography classes. Plus I wasn't taking non stop photography classes too, you gotta throw in gen ed's too, so I wasn't really a full time photography student. When I took my first class at Columbia College, they actually made me start from stratch because I didn't know that.


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## Overread (Feb 19, 2010)

You might also find these video critiques of interest:
zarias.com :: The blog of editorial photographer Zack Arias  Critique

There is some very good and solid general advice in there. Its more from working in the professional market line than direct photography crits and a lot of the work is more portrait based, but the overall info is very good (and they are amusing to listen to as well which is always a bonus)


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## Charles89 (Feb 19, 2010)

bgaideski said:


> To sum it up...
> 
> Just charge what you feel your pictures are worth. People might pay it, people might not.
> 
> ...



Not really, just like any industry there are quality ''products'' and cheap ''products''. If there were no amateur doing the work for $100, people who cant afford $1000 shoots would still not buy it... 

Are the cheap Ipod replicas killing the Ipod market...I dont think so.


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## Sherman Banks (Feb 19, 2010)

Read this.

Hopefully you'll get a better idea of what to charge, or if you should be charging at all.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 19, 2010)

Charles89 said:


> Not really, just like any industry there are quality ''products'' and cheap ''products''. If there were no amateur doing the work for $100, people who cant afford $1000 shoots would still not buy it...
> 
> Are the cheap Ipod replicas killing the Ipod market...I dont think so.


 
You simply connot equate cheap products, with cheap services. They are not the same. I provide a service. I design, fabricate, and repair jewelry.

I am predominately on the wholesale side of the industry, meaning I do work for the retail stores. I work in a building that has 4 other jewelers that do the same thing, wholsale repair for retailers. I am the best of the bunch. If you want quality work, done right the first time, you come to me. I am doing quite well in my first 5 months of business, because of my reputation. My biggest problem is dealing with complaints about my prices. Retailers are more than willing to use me, but they want my quality work, at the prices of the lesser qualified trade shops. To compete, I am forced to undervalue my labor. Mind you, I don't meet there prices, and often when someone complains, I refer them to the other shops. 

Furthermore, I receeve plenty of work that was done by those shops to fix, and redo the job right. I am expected to give the customer a break too! I smile and tell them how much money they would have saved, coming to me first. 

They slowly come around. But I am still limited in my pricing. It seems to me the reason why the other shops are still in business, is because the customers are driven by price, and will accept lower quality work because they are getting it at a low price. This is something that is very hard to overcome. Slowly I am seeing where I can raise my prices, an I am making adjustments gradually.

This is the same all over in any service industry. Prices become tied to the lowest player.

The way I see the art photo field, is you can sell a matted print for $25. You have plenty of cheap venues to sell in as well. What the artist will find, as his work gets better, and he/she is selling a ton at $25, the price can start going up. As your quality and prices rise, you move yourself out of the street vender arena, and move towards local small art galleries. If you are doing well there, again, you go up the ladder. Raise your price per print, and move into a better market for it.


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## FrankLamont (Feb 19, 2010)

Racefan.

From the things you've said, here:


> community college in BEGINNING photography classes. Plus I wasn't taking non stop photography classes too, you gotta throw in gen ed's too, so I wasn't really a full time photography student. When I took my first class at Columbia College, they actually made me start from stratch because I didn't know that.



- and that you're not a pro photog... nor at the moment looking to start your photographic career... nor that you have much experience in portraiture and instead focus on auto racing? 

Then it seems clear; pass it on. There will be chances far and wide in the future. Let this one pass, work on your skills - particularly, in the areas in which you would want to work. And in the areas you aren't so familiar with, don't get paid for photographing unless you're dead keen and have gone through some familiarising with that area. 

I assume, by your OP, that you are getting mostly portraiture, maybe wedding, shoot offers. 

A wedding should be passed on. Time, practice and equipment are necessities in this field, and you really don't want to ruin someone's somewhat best day.

Portraiture? Sure, it's not so pressing, but really, the more you work in aiming higher in this field, the better your first shots and impressions will be. It'll make it all the worth while.


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## Overread (Feb 19, 2010)

Um....weddings arn't the topic here (I just wrote about them not being the topic a page ago). 

This is not wedding thread!!


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