# creative careers are foolish



## runnah (Mar 19, 2015)

Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?

In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.

Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.


----------



## fjrabon (Mar 19, 2015)

Being a professional photographer made me hate photography for a while.


----------



## runnah (Mar 19, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> Being a professional photographer made me hate photography for a while.



Honestly picking up a camera was the worst thing I could have done for my career. Rather than learning other skills I learned a skill that actually pays less than I make now.


----------



## photoguy99 (Mar 19, 2015)

Perhaps a compromise career. I've heard that "creative accounting" pays extremely well.


----------



## pgriz (Mar 19, 2015)

photoguy99 said:


> Perhaps a compromise career. I've heard that "creative accounting" pays extremely well.



Only if you don't get caught.


----------



## Derrel (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm kicking myself over all those years spent honing my pole dancing skills...people tried to tell me, pole dancing was a career field  more appropriate for hot, lithe, young females...but I was young, and I refused to listen...I was sure that some day, _peoples' minds would change_...


----------



## runnah (Mar 19, 2015)

Derrel said:


> I'm kicking myself over all those years spent honing my pole dancing skills...people tried to tell me, pole dancing was a career field  more appropriate for hot, lithe, young females...but I was young, and I refused to listen...I was sure that some day, _peoples' minds would change_...



I'd have an easier time convincing upper management to stick dollars bills in my g-string than to change a font in an ad.


----------



## JustJazzie (Mar 19, 2015)

:-(


----------



## tirediron (Mar 19, 2015)

Derrel said:


> I'm kicking myself over all those years spent honing my pole dancing skills...people tried to tell me, pole dancing was a career field  more appropriate for hot, lithe, young females...but I was young, and I refused to listen...I was sure that some day, _peoples' minds would change_...


Huh... I didn't know they made schedule 80 brass poles.  Live and learn.


----------



## tirediron (Mar 19, 2015)

runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?


_That_ is solely up to the individual; for some yes, for others no.



runnah said:


> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.


 Then, for you, the answer to question #1 is clearly yes.



runnah said:


> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.


Absolutely!

Everyone is creative, but the depth of the desire to be creative is what differs from person to person.  Most people with even a moderately severe creative vein at least imagine trying the starving artist routine.  Newsflash:  It is NOT all it's cracked up to be.


----------



## Fred Berg (Mar 20, 2015)

A full stomach and burgeoning bank account are not often conducive to the creative process.


----------



## 407370 (Mar 20, 2015)

Depends on how you measure the success of your creativity.
I solve problems so well that people pay me to solve the problems they cant solve themselves. This is essentially how I pay my bills. This is a fundamentally creative process but it has nothing to do with art.
My passion for creating art is separate from the method of paying bills. That puts me in a privileged position of enjoying art as a hobby and I would never choose to create art for a living because it would suck all the fun out of it.


----------



## Forkie (Mar 20, 2015)

A lot of people seem to measure success by how much money they make.  But what about recognition from your peers, job satisfaction, general happiness and simply the reward of having made a great image?  

I could be making loads of money by being an accountant or a lawyer or a manager of something if I'd paid attention at school.  But I doubt very much I'd be as happy or would have met any of the wonderful people I've met since taking up photography as my job.  

One day I hope to have my own studio and run my own business instead of being employed as a photographer in someone else's company like I am now, and maybe then I will be able to make more money, but I see the money as a nice by-product of doing what I love to do, not the objective.

If your goal is to make money then yes, a creative career is not necessarily foolish, but certainly a long and difficult way to go about it, but if your goal is job satisfaction and praise for your work, then I think the creative industries are the best and most rewarding jobs there are.


----------



## Designer (Mar 20, 2015)

runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> 
> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.


I've wondered the same thing many times.

I fought my way through architecture school for 5 years, only to not find a job doing that.  Eventually I did, but what a crappy start.  Then when I settled into what I thought was going to be my "lifetime" job, I had to continually argue my position, which was not at all fun.  My ideas were routinely ignored as if I hadn't even made them known.

I've heard architects say they would do the work for nothing, as long as they could keep on designing.  

I'm sorry this post is not more positive, but that is my answer: Yes, being creative is quite important to me, and although I am not making any money, I still enjoy the creative process.


----------



## Braineack (Mar 20, 2015)

runnah said:


> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.



Try being a UI designer and working with a sharepoint team.

But i refuse to work past 3pm.  7-3 and then im checked out.  i never bring work home.


----------



## runnah (Mar 20, 2015)

Braineack said:


> Try being a UI designer and working with a sharepoint team.



Ok you win...


----------



## JohnnyWrench (Mar 20, 2015)

One thing I've learned about being a creative professional is that at the end of the day, it all pays the same. At least in my case. At some point it's not worth the fight. I make my opinions known and if the client wants me to do something else, even if i know my way is better, I just do it. Most of those hills aren't worth dying on.


----------



## Vtec44 (Mar 20, 2015)

I work with clients that have zero knowledge about photography and pay me a lot of money to do what they can't do.  I make people look good, feel good about themselves, and capture moments that money can't replace.  I love it.


----------



## DanOstergren (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm perpetually broke, but creating my art makes me happy. It gives me an outrageous goal to be optimistic about and is therapy to my manic mind. My emotions are always up and down, and during my lowest points I believe that my passion for my art has saved me from ending my life. It's still something that to this day gives me a reason to wake up with something to look forward to. So my answer: yes, it's worth it.


----------



## runnah (Mar 23, 2015)

DanOstergren said:


> I'm perpetually broke, but creating my art makes me happy. It gives me an outrageous goal to be optimistic about and is therapy to my manic mind. My emotions are always up and down, and during my lowest points I believe that my passion for my art has saved me from ending my life. It's still something that to this day gives me a reason to wake up with something to look forward to. So my answer: yes, it's worth it.



I felt the same when I was younger. Now that I have a family and must support then I have really started to question my choices.

I do envy the effect it has upon you. I too felt almost identical. Sadly the rush and euphoria of creating something great gets crushed by those I work for or by my own self doubt.


----------



## astroNikon (Mar 23, 2015)

Derrel said:


> I'm kicking myself over all those years spent honing my pole dancing skills...people tried to tell me, pole dancing was a career field  more appropriate for hot, lithe, young females...but I was young, and I refused to listen...I was sure that some day, _peoples' minds would change_...


No.  No Derrel.  No one will ever change their mind.
Stick to Photography.
We'd rather have you behind the camera, than in front of it !!


----------



## mmaria (Mar 23, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > I'm perpetually broke, but creating my art makes me happy. It gives me an outrageous goal to be optimistic about and is therapy to my manic mind. My emotions are always up and down, and during my lowest points I believe that my passion for my art has saved me from ending my life. It's still something that to this day gives me a reason to wake up with something to look forward to. So my answer: yes, it's worth it.
> ...


I spend 8 hours per day doing job I don't like. I do have lots of liberty but I really don't like almost anything I do....and additionally, I have a masters degree in something I don't like. So... I failed completely. I'm deeply unsatisfied with that segment of my life for a long time now.

Creating something I like and having euphoric feelings towards my "creations" aaand getting paid for doing that is a dream and most likely will be just that.

And yes, it _is_ different when you're by yourself and when you have a family in the equation.

I actually envy you a bit on something about your job... at least you're doing what you wanted to do and you know you're good at it  (job _is_ related to your diploma and you're not doing something you don't like even more). Working with people who are not appreciating you the way they supposed to are "completely normal" in my realm. Unfortunately of course.

Accounting is extremely boring and you have to be focused on it non stop. Plumbing... would you be a good plumber?

Until you find something better (and I'm sure you will some day) try to find a way to not let the job gets you that much and that often perhaps... and more importantly, don't let your personal creativity  be affected by the situation on your job.
I'm making pacts with myself, if I do ok something that I must do then I reward myself with something that I like to do, and similar...  It is easier to say than do but.. anyway... jmo


----------



## Gary A. (Mar 23, 2015)

If you were an accountant or a plumber ... nobody would appreciate you either, but you'd make better money.   Your experience of doing what you love, something that stirs your passion but not your pocketbook is quite different than mine. 

I had a great job, good steady, salaried income, company car, company equipment, company credit card ... lol ... even company cash. But for me ... it got old, it got to be routine and when I took a vacation, I left the cameras home.  I think whenever a task, a job, a vacation, a pastime becomes routine, it first become stale and then it starts to rot. At the paper, before the stale and routine set it, I think everybody worked for their passion and not for the money (the money was never that great).  Even the old guys/gals who were jaundice from the daily pressure and from the everyday routine and rot still had a spark of passion left and occasionally a story would fan that spark into fire.  

Being handsomely rewarded, or having inescapable responsibilities (ala family), keeps one anchored to a tedious job. Conversely, it would eat me up alive, knowing that I could better provide for my family, but spent my working days in mental hell.


----------



## photoslater (Mar 23, 2015)

well, between photography and writing. I'm pretty much screwed !


----------



## astroNikon (Mar 23, 2015)

photoslater said:


> well, between photography and writing. I'm pretty much screwed !


You could write about photography


----------



## photoslater (Mar 23, 2015)

or photograph writing? heheh


----------



## e.rose (Mar 23, 2015)

runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> 
> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.



I agree with you.

Creative careers are ENTIRELY foolish.

They're hard, and stressful, and cause heartache and in my case this past weekend, depression and anxiety.

I can't count how many times I threatened to quit.

I called off work and stayed in bed for a full day Saturday because I was so upset at life, I couldn't function.

I considered selling all of my gear and just making the decision to be a career Apple employee.

And then Sunday came, I felt a little better, and instead of working I just relaxed, did some house chores, gamed all day, and watched some TV.

Now today is here and I finally asked myself, "Okay... So about quitting... Do you REALLY... REALLY want to never photograph anything ever again and do you REALLY... REALLY want to work for Apple forever?"

".........No."

"Great. Drink some coffee, take a shower, meet up with Matt and get your a** back to work."

I've had this discussion with friends and my husband.

COULD we all get normal 9-5 day jobs and would life be easier?

Yeah.

But would that make us HAPPIER?

No.

Life would be more miserable for me personally.

I'd rather spend 4 days seriously depressed and then get back up and fight through it, than be bored and totally unfulfilled the rest of my life.

(And that's not to say people with 9-5 jobs aren't fulfilled. I'm just saying *I* wouldn't be fulfilled. There's nothing wrong with a 9-5.  )


----------



## 407370 (Mar 23, 2015)

For me work is how I pay bills. If that meant flipping burgers or designing complex computer systems it is still work. I deliberately avoided mixing my passions with earning money and I am a happier person for it. 
There have been opportunities to turn photography into money and twice I have taken that opportunity because I was interested in stretching my photographic skills. I will never chase photographic work and I have given away hundreds of pictures because that is the buzz I am looking for. 
Without the hobby I would not be a happy person. 
Its all about balance.


----------



## Bebulamar (Mar 23, 2015)

runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> 
> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.



You can not earn a living by doing things for yourself. If you are thinking of doing things for others you must respect and do what your audience want. Calling the people who you expect to pay you ungrateful isn't going to get you anywhere.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

Bebulamar said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> ...



That doesn't mean it's far from the truth either. One of the most useful skills I've learned is grinning through gritted teeth. Put on that real estate smile, get the job done, tell them "I'm sorry, but no, I already told you I don't give the RAW files. That was also written in the contract you signed 15 minutes ago," as politely as possible.

Thinking one thing but not outwardly expressing it is a business skill that I think every business-oriented photographer needs to know.

You schmooze or you lose.

Then again, some people just have a natural bounciness that they can turn on regardless of how angry or annoyed they are.

I envy those people.


----------



## runnah (Mar 24, 2015)

Bebulamar said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> ...



I do more than photos. I am talking more marketing strategies and such. I draw issue with folks who disregard my direction based solely on the fact they they are in a higher position and thus think they "know" the right answer regardless.


----------



## Hermes1 (Mar 24, 2015)

Forkie said:


> A lot of people seem to measure success by how much money they make.  But what about recognition from your peers, job satisfaction, general happiness and simply the reward of having made a great image?
> 
> I could be making loads of money by being an accountant or a lawyer or a manager of something if I'd paid attention at school.  But I doubt very much I'd be as happy or would have met any of the wonderful people I've met since taking up photography as my job.
> 
> ...



I agree, but I also agree to a certain extent with the OP.  My career has been a mixed bag, some are very grateful and appreciate my work, while others have no clue about what is involved in making good images.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > I'm perpetually broke, but creating my art makes me happy. It gives me an outrageous goal to be optimistic about and is therapy to my manic mind. My emotions are always up and down, and during my lowest points I believe that my passion for my art has saved me from ending my life. It's still something that to this day gives me a reason to wake up with something to look forward to. So my answer: yes, it's worth it.
> ...


You are just nervous. Maybe it just occurred to you how many people count on you. Stop cryn in your cheerios and man up.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

bribrius said:


> Stop cryn in your cheerios and man up.



I don't think it's very helpful to assume that he's not manning up. Bringing to attention my internal conflict about how I'm providing for my family isn't the same as not providing for my family.

I really wish that platitude would go die a slow painful death somewhere, along with "There are people worse off than you so get over it."

It's more often than not just invalidation masquerading as well-meaning tough love.


----------



## pixmedic (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Stop cryn in your cheerios and man up.
> ...



it seems like such a crazy concept, especially for a guy, and I might have agreed with it years ago.
but man, I have taken people to the hospital for all manner of suicide attempts. some better than others.
from 8 year olds to 80 year olds, male and female alike.
I have heard every crazy story and circumstance you could imagine, and seen the effects it has on their friends and family. 
no matter how trivial you might think someones problem is....to that person, at that time, it might as well be the fate of the world on their shoulders.  I have seen the effects myself with family members that have committed suicide.
I dont understand the mindset or the feelings behind such an act, but i do understand the mindset and feelings of those that are left behind afterwards.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Stop cryn in your cheerios and man up.
> ...





rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > Stop cryn in your cheerios and man up.
> ...


There is no other platitude. You consider your options, make your choices best you can, and you live with those choices until you are dead.
And from some personal experience with suicide (people i have known). I have ZERO sympathy. If you wanted to kill yourself you should have done it BEFORE you had kids. Because it sure as hell isn't everyone elses job to raise them.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

bribrius said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Do you not see the irony in your advice, though?


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


not really.


rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


Not really. You do your best or you don't. If you are doing your best and it still sucks "don't cry over spilled milk". You did what you could.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...



Giving "tough love" rational advice to a person in an irrational state-of-mind in an attempt to help them will probably cause them to withdraw from you, increasing the likelihood of self-harm.

This mentality makes it worse because it only exacerbates _their _feelings of isolation, regardless of how much sense it make to _you_.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



I think a lot of people make the mistake of looking at it from a rational point-of-view. I think it's really one of those things that requires empathy, because sympathy is nearly impossible. "Why would somebody do that?" "You don't have any reason to feel like that." "How selfish." Etc...

It's similar to those who don't believe that alcoholism is a disease. "Well, just stop drinking." "Change whatever is wrong in your life to cause you to drink."

As someone who has experienced the effects and mentality of alcoholism secondhand for an extended period of time, I can definitely say it is not a vice born out of logic. There are MANY demons that can only truly be understood by those experiencing them. People go to school for 6-10 years just to be qualified to use help people handle these demons. And even then, the science isn't exact and the criteria is often broad and ambiguous.

I can understand the animosity toward it, because to people one the outside, it DOES NOT make sense. For some people who attempted suicide and came out on the other side, it DOES NOT make sense.

"What about their family? Don't they care about them?" Yes, there is the contemplation of that, and often it's the feeling that their family would be better off without them. Once again: irrationality.

These dark corners of people's minds (regardless of their lot in life) are difficult to express to another person because the feelings are unique to those who have felt them.

I just...can't explain it beyond that...But what I can say is that there is a vicious cycle of *acquiring depression* > *rejection/invalidation of depression* >* increased depression *in the USA that is doing nobody any good. This social stigma and unwillingness to recognize mental illness as a legitimate issue is one of the reasons you see people's families on the news say, through tears, "I didn't even know anything was wrong."


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


He appears to be reconsidering past decisions and having potential regrets from what i am reading. while at the same time contemplating his choice of time for work, time for art, time for family.
And of course MONEY for family. Seems pretty rational. But he needs to get off his duff and figure it out. There isn't any answers in a online forum.
Far as mental illness in the u.s. I think they have about a quarter the population diagnosed with something at this point. health care and big pharma are leading industries. With so many people on some diagnosis i lean heavily toward inner child syndrome running rampant.






i won't talk someone out of suicide. Been through that before. i have never been dead. i can't say if they are better off or not. It is the equivilent of hitting the fast forward button. Everyone dies. just fast forward. I can say if they plan to maybe they are really shitty parents though. But like you said. That probably don't help. I wouldn't be the right one to talk someone off a ledge i am afraid.  it would go something like "look. being dead might be better. i never been dead. i can't ascertain one way or the other. And natural selection is normal. so if you jump off the ledge i totally get this. But have you considered who will put your kid on the school bus tomorrow morning? Because that kind of chit is real important"


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 24, 2015)

bribrius said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



You keep assuming that he's not providing for his family and that he's not trying to figure it out. I never thought that he was looking for answers here, only trying to get some insight into how other people feel about it. In that context, the "get over it" comment is still unhelpful.

And you can think what you want but that doesn't make it so.

AND I don't know what's wrong with trying to become the person who would be able to talk someone down from a ledge. Your post has a boasting tone about it, but I'm not sure being the wrong guy to keep someone from killing themselves (especially if it's someone close who has asked you for help) is something I would be proud of.

Or maybe I'm just too soft.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


Because it isn't my life to make that decision. It is theirs. And i never have been dead. so i can't say i am making a correct choice telling them suicide is somehow wrong. Above all, when it comes to a persons rights. I do believe in giving them the dignity in ending their own life is they so choose. If a person has little other for rights in this world. They should at least have the right to end THEIR OWN life.  Consider it a matter of respect for someone, passing on to another world. Whether i might personally disagree with the decision or not. You got to at least give a person that much, imo.


----------



## Vtec44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Well this thread has taken a turn.... to a whole different topic...


----------



## bribrius (Mar 24, 2015)

runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> 
> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.


you know. years back someone would start a job right out of school, get a career and stay in that work for their entire lives or near to it. These days people are changing jobs and careers multiple times during their life. It isn't too late for you to put out your resume to see what else is out there or start working toward a career change if you wanted one. If you could find something providing better, less travel, you might find yourself more at ease.


----------



## DanOstergren (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...


Suicide is very commonly related to issues with mental health. As a matter of fact more than 90% of people who commit or attempt to commit suicide have a diagnosable mental disorder (bipolar, major depression, schizophrenia, personality disorders, and even combinations of those or combined with substance abuse are 3 times as likely to commit suicide).  Anyone who "doesn't get why someone would commit suicide" is lucky. I can sure as hell tell you from personal experience that it's a lot more complicated than manning up, but I can also tell you how being told to "man up" all my life has caused me all sorts of damage that I am struggling to fix as an adult and has resulted in me finding myself in a crisis clinic before.

I'm not saying or expecting anyone to be empathetic, but I will say that apathy is one of the world's biggest problems, and blaming suicidal people for their feelings and actions is the reason why so many don't feel like they have anyone to go to, which often leads them to the suicide. I'd woken up on many occasion to where the first thought that crosses my mind is "I want to be dead". It scares the **** out of me, and for the longest time I couldn't talk to my family or friends about it because I had an irrational fear of being told "you're just being dramatic" or "you just want something", or even "man up and stop being selfish". I was lucky that my family didn't respond this way when I finally disclosed what I was going through with them. I got help. But I'm scared to think about what I would have done if I was told to "man up" instead, or if I had been too scared to ever say anything simply because I was convinced that's what I would have been told. It's ****ed up that anyone would take on an attitude that suggests others commit suicide if that's what they want. What they NEED is help and empathy.


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

I've just given a couple of big fat disagrees!!!


sorry for interrupting but I'm not sure what is this thread about now


----------



## pixmedic (Mar 25, 2015)

The same thing it's always about. Bacon


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> There is no other platitude. You consider your options, make your choices best you can, and you live with those choices until you are dead.
> And from some personal experience with suicide (people i have known). I have ZERO sympathy. If you wanted to kill yourself you should have done it BEFORE you had kids. Because it sure as hell isn't everyone elses job to raise them.



At first, I wanted to argue with you, but I realized that I'd spend my time explaining something that you won't even try to follow or understand.

You're completely clueless about anything related to suicide.


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> The same thing it's always about. Bacon


don't bring bacon into this!!!
or


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

Wow this took a dark turn!


----------



## pixmedic (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> Wow this took a dark turn!


Yea...i should have left bacon out of it. Sorry


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

DanOstergren said:


> but I can also tell you how being told to "*man up*" all my life has caused me all sorts of damage that I am struggling to fix as an adult and has resulted in me finding myself in a crisis clinic before.



Indeed, it's a good phrase for developing sociopaths.

I still struggle a great deal with being emotional as it was drilled into my head that emotions are for the weak and women. Man up, bury feelings under a layers of alcohol is the method I was accustomed to.

But hey, no worries I am getting better.


----------



## waday (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > but I can also tell you how being told to "*man up*" all my life has caused me all sorts of damage that I am struggling to fix as an adult and has resulted in me finding myself in a crisis clinic before.
> ...


These comments, whether talking suicide or so-called "creative careers" or type of sexuality/etc., are definitely still prevalent in the area that I grew up in and currently live.

Not so long ago, I moved to a much more populated area for a job. The wife and I thought that the people were so nice and progressive compared to where we lived. The office I worked in had about 300 people, and everyone was pretty much on top of social norms with no offensive comments. Working for a corporation with 100,000 people worldwide, they pretty much have a zero tolerance policy for offensive comments, which is great.

Well, to make a short story long, we've recently moved back to the much smaller area, and I'm working for the same company in a much smaller office (~40 people). I've heard comments from coworkers and people in public that make my skin crawl. These are comments that I may have ignored before, but I just can't stand now. General political/sexist/racist/religious comments in the workforce, loud enough for all to hear.

It's scary.

Now, not EVERYONE is like that here, but there are way too many...


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > but I can also tell you how being told to "*man up*" all my life has caused me all sorts of damage that I am struggling to fix as an adult and has resulted in me finding myself in a crisis clinic before.
> ...


sounds like you were raised like me.  It isn't that they are for weak or women, it is that it isn't about you. It is about your responsibilities and obligations. All emotional and frigged in the head you aren't beneficial to anyone. Ever hear the term "build your house on solid rock". Well NEWS FLASH. Soon as you reproduced you became that solid rock. And if you can't hold it together who else is going to be that rock? The wife or the baby? Go chop some wood. Life goes on. Get over it.


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> sounds like you were raised like me.  It isn't that they are for weak or women, it is that it isn't about you. It is about your responsibilities and obligations. All emotional and frigged in the head you aren't beneficial to anyone. Ever hear the term "build your house on solid rock". Well NEWS FLASH. Soon as you reproduced you became that solid rock. And if you can't hold it together who else is going to be that rock? The wife or the baby? Go chop some wood. Life goes on. Get over it.


sorry  but you sound like a sociopath


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

mmaria said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > sounds like you were raised like me.  It isn't that they are for weak or women, it is that it isn't about you. It is about your responsibilities and obligations. All emotional and frigged in the head you aren't beneficial to anyone. Ever hear the term "build your house on solid rock". Well NEWS FLASH. Soon as you reproduced you became that solid rock. And if you can't hold it together who else is going to be that rock? The wife or the baby? Go chop some wood. Life goes on. Get over it.
> ...


Then you need to go look up the definition because this is all about responsibility. And this thread has gone WAY off topic.


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> I still struggle a great deal with being emotional as it was drilled into my head that emotions are for the weak and women. Man up, *bury feelings under a layers of alcohol is the method I was accustomed to*.


... my father is a tough man. "No emotions are allowed" kind of person... He was very strict and his way of upbringing caused many troubles in my head. He is also an alcoholic, letting out all that is bury inside when he drinks. 

I'm not insinuating anything at all, I've just mentioned that because there is a reason I want to know why do you take that path?


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

mmaria said:


> I'm not insinuating anything at all, I've just mentioned that because there is a reason I want to know why do you take that path?



Learned behavior I guess. Emotions are seen as weakness and weakness will not be tolerated. I have to fight that urge and realize it's ok to be seen as "weak".


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> sounds like you were raised like me.  It isn't that they are for weak or women, it is that it isn't about you. It is about your responsibilities and obligations. All emotional and frigged in the head you aren't beneficial to anyone. Ever hear the term "build your house on solid rock". Well NEWS FLASH. Soon as you reproduced you became that solid rock. And if you can't hold it together who else is going to be that rock? The wife or the baby? Go chop some wood. Life goes on. Get over it.



Yeah I have a very, very hard time with empathy. Sympathy sure, but empathy is a tough nut to crack.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > sounds like you were raised like me.  It isn't that they are for weak or women, it is that it isn't about you. It is about your responsibilities and obligations. All emotional and frigged in the head you aren't beneficial to anyone. Ever hear the term "build your house on solid rock". Well NEWS FLASH. Soon as you reproduced you became that solid rock. And if you can't hold it together who else is going to be that rock? The wife or the baby? Go chop some wood. Life goes on. Get over it.
> ...


Honestly. I had a similar conversation with a photographer/videographer i know last year. He had two modes. "poor me" or "i need another drink". He showed up on my door step a few times. Looking for someone to feed into it. And i told him the same damn thing i am saying in this thread. Course, he didn't listen. A year later his wife divorced him. Dropped a restrainer on him. The state stepped in because of his potential "mental health issues" wondering if he is a danger to the children. Now he is restricted to supervised visitation. why? he thought it was all about him. And when push came to shove everyone else got involved in protecting the wife and kids from HIM. So if he went on some drunken binge pity party and decided to eat a bullet at least he would only be taking himself out.
I told him to get over it. He didn't listen.


----------



## mmaria (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> Learned behavior I guess. Emotions are seen as weakness and weakness will not be tolerated. I have to fight that urge and realize it's ok to be seen as "weak".


but then how is alcohol seen?

you're a big dude with a beard...  a bit of emotions showed won't crush the image of you, it would just make you look ..idk, approachable maybe, not weak.

I'm amazed with how you guys see "weak"... I think I even don't have that word in my vocabulary nor I've ever thought that a guy in an emotional state is "a weak one".. and I'm pretty sure that applies on majority of women.


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

mmaria said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Learned behavior I guess. Emotions are seen as weakness and weakness will not be tolerated. I have to fight that urge and realize it's ok to be seen as "weak".
> ...



Eh, booze is a crutch and an escape. Helps to turn the mind off for a bit. Lol I sounds like a massive drunk.

I am not a emotionless robot! I do have then I just check myself before I expose too much.

Yeah weakness was/is seen as a very bad thing for guys. Men are expected to be strong and powerful. This means big muscles, a powerful job, flashy car, beautiful wife etc...


----------



## Gary A. (Mar 25, 2015)

For me, if I wore-my-emotions-on-my-sleeve, if they were not in "check", I couldn't perform my job as a photojournalist.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


In my book (anyway) a guy that drives a subaru (responsible good on gas), tries to support his family, has a couple night caps before bed (keeps his wits about him) and holds it together so his wife and kids aren't insecure as all hell is a man. You can have big muscles, a powerful job, and flashy car and still be a total putz.


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > mmaria said:
> ...



Well it's more to society view of being a man. Just like fake tits and blonde hair are for ladies.


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> mmaria said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not insinuating anything at all, I've just mentioned that because there is a reason I want to know why do you take that path?
> ...



This is the part of the equation that has always bothered me (in general - not specifically about your comments. You just happened to say something that triggered this reaction.)

It's not a question of people accepting weakness. It's a matter of people accepting the fact that emotions can be the source of _strength_ and are NOT a sign of weakness.

Someone can have and show emotions and still be taking care of responsibilities. These two things are not mutually exclusive. The idea that someone would like to be more satisfied at work and who expresses that does not mean someone is "all emotional and frigged up in the head" and suddenly shirking responsibilities. It simply means that person is human.

Compassion is not weakness and it's bullsh*t that anyone would think so.


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> Well it's more to society view of being a man. Just like fake tits and blonde hair are for ladies.



And that's why traditional gender roles and stereotypes are just as destructive for men as they are for women. I can't for the life of me understand why we're so invested in thoughts that make us all feel like crap about ourselves.


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

limr said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > mmaria said:
> ...



It's slowly going away, I see it already in people younger than me. But I am still from the "boys don't cry" era. Its hard to break free of that after growing up with it for so long.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


That isn't a good thing. IMO. The men are crying more than the women of thirty years ago did. You guys are putting a total spin on this. It is these old mentalities that survived the great depression, made it through wars, settled the plains. I get that it is "old school thinking" but there is a reason it is there. And i am not "discounting emotion" because of lacking sympathy. Just the reason some of these mentalities existed is because it revolved around sheer survival and building a country. It is easy to say "we shouldn't think like that anymore" but the ones saying that weren't the ones that built the country. Most of those in the emotion camp never built anything.  Emotion does little good when you are starving or need to build a house or keep a farm or anything independent and productive.  I could cry over the snow in my driveway but it isn't going to move it out of the way any quicker.


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> That isn't a good thing. IMO. The men are crying more than the women of thirty years ago did. You guys are putting a total spin on this. It is these old mentalities that survived the great depression, made it through wars, settled the plains. I get that it is "old school thinking" but there is a reason it is there. And i am not "discounting emotion" because of lacking sympathy. Just the reason some of these mentalities existed is because it revolved around sheer survival and building a country. It is easy to say "we shouldn't think like that anymore" but the ones saying that weren't the ones that built the country. *Most of those in the emotion camp never built anything.*  Emotion does little good when you are starving or need to build a house or keep a farm or anything independent and productive.  I could cry over the snow in my driveway but it isn't going to move it out of the way any quicker.



Bullsh*t.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > That isn't a good thing. IMO. The men are crying more than the women of thirty years ago did. You guys are putting a total spin on this. It is these old mentalities that survived the great depression, made it through wars, settled the plains. I get that it is "old school thinking" but there is a reason it is there. And i am not "discounting emotion" because of lacking sympathy. Just the reason some of these mentalities existed is because it revolved around sheer survival and building a country. It is easy to say "we shouldn't think like that anymore" but the ones saying that weren't the ones that built the country. *Most of those in the emotion camp never built anything.*  Emotion does little good when you are starving or need to build a house or keep a farm or anything independent and productive.  I could cry over the snow in my driveway but it isn't going to move it out of the way any quicker.
> ...


harsh truth of it. run out of food and go try to grow a crop and tell me how much emotion helps.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

disagree all you want. Sorry i peed in your cheerios with the reality check.


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

And tell me how emotions get in the way of someone taking care of their responsibilities.

How many parents cried in private because of the troubles they were having? How many people feel stressed and vent after work with some friends, but then still go into work the next day and get their jobs done? How many people are driven by emotion to work harder to provide for their families or even to work for other people?

It is pure and utter excrement to say that emotions never built anything and that people who show their emotions can't survive.


----------



## photoguy99 (Mar 25, 2015)

I get what you're saying, bribrius.

There's plenty of room for emotional displays in our society, we're affluent and lucky. But even here, when the stuff is hittin' the fan someone's got to get down to business and get things done. Even if it's trivial, the wife is sick, and someone's gotta put the kids to bed and wash the dishes. Getting on facebook and whining about how hard your life is isn't going to get the dishes any cleaner.

This doesn't mean there's no love, there's no sadness, there's no anguish. It's there, but you put it down for a bit to get the dishes washed, or get the kid to the ER, or plant the corn, or bury the cow, or whatever.

I had NO idea what this has to do with the OP's remarks, though.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

photoguy99 said:


> I get what you're saying, bribrius.
> 
> There's plenty of room for emotional displays in our society, we're affluent and lucky. But even here, when the stuff is hittin' the fan someone's got to get down to business and get things done. Even if it's trivial, the wife is sick, and someone's gotta put the kids to bed and wash the dishes. Getting on facebook and whining about how hard your life is isn't going to get the dishes any cleaner.
> 
> ...


Me either. Lost track.


----------



## AlanKlein (Mar 25, 2015)

Why do you have to have a job in the arts to be creative?   I've been a boss, an application engineer, a project manager of specialty construction work, etc.  Every job I've had required to think out of the box, be creative in getting the job done, dealing with people, banks, management, design, execution, how to make money, how to make payroll weekly, and even relaxation.  The idea that only artists can use their creative talents isn't correct.


----------



## Austin Greene (Mar 25, 2015)

Giving an old-fashioned reply, enough of side-tracked discussion in suicide, imho.



runnah said:


> Is the passion to create enough to justify the hardships?
> 
> In my case I spent most of my time fighting for respect, justifying my position, and convincing people with zero creativity that my idea and opinions are valid. I spend many night away from my family to create things for people who are ungrateful. All for the same pay as a retail manager.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if accounting or plumbing would have yielded less stress and more money to enjoy creative hobbies.



I believe so.

The people I've met thus far in my life, the happiest people, are those who do what they love for a living. No exceptions.

As for earning people's respect, my take on that is simply that I don't want your respect if you won't freely give it. You need no person's validation besides your own, and nobody is going to stop you from doing what you want to do besides you. That's what gets me when people talk about how few individuals "make it" in photography. I can promise you that those master, celebrity-status photographers never once thought to themselves "Man, I probably won't make it, so I should just not try." If they had, they wouldn't be where they are. You need complete and utter confidence in yourself. That applies to any area of work.

Also, if you're getting paid the same as a retail manager, target bigger fish. For example, I work full-time at my current studio job, but I'm building a wedding client base on the side. I have ZERO wedding experience, but this year I'm scheduled to pull in an extra 50% income from weddings alone, and that's at dirt cheap prices ($2k / wedding). Next year, when I actually have photos besides landscapes to show clients, I'll be doubling my prices and specifically targeting weddings in the $4-8k price range. My goal is 15 weddings for next year, more than doubling my income. I won't be able to do that, let alone get the clients, if I don't have absolute confidence in my abilities, even in areas I have never shot before.

*Things will look good if you give them no other option.*


----------



## Buckster (Mar 25, 2015)

My hat's off to those who pursue the arts as a career, whether they are very successful or "starving".  

Though I fantasized as a boy and young man that I would love to make my living making art with painting, sculpting, photography and music (and also as an engineer and inventor, and possibly an astronaut ), I didn't see the arts (nor the astronaut) career as very practical, the more I opened my young eyes to the reality that surrounded me.

Having seen the real-life financial struggles of the artists in my own circle of family and friends while growing up definitely put me off the idea that I should make a real attempt myself.  Too many of them were SO good, yet SO destitute.  Some were formally educated in the arts, some not, but that didn't seem to matter either.  It seemed that the only thing that really separated the successful from the "starving" was "a lucky break".  And while that happened to a couple of them, the odds seemed very much against it, from what I could see.

For me, pursuing a career outside of the arts turned out okay.  I very much enjoyed my work and the people I worked with, lived an adventurous life with lots of travel through it, was able to provide well for myself and my family, was able to use my creative, inventive, engineering and artistic facets in association with my regular career, had plenty of time and money to pursue my artistic hobbies without deadlines or worries of any kind associated with them, and socked enough money away into Social Security to enjoy a good monthly allotment now that I'm retired.

I think, for me, it was the right decision to go with a more traditional career, and I have no regrets over it.


----------



## KenC (Mar 25, 2015)

I agree with Alan and Buckster.  Many of us get to be creative in different ways at work, and then we get to be creative in other ways in our hobbies, and all this without starving!


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

KenC said:


> I agree with Alan and Buckster.  Many of us get to be creative in different ways at work, and then we get to be creative in other ways in our hobbies, and all this without starving!



I think the point is less about being in a 'creative' career, and more about being in a career that isn't valued as highly, thus making it harder to make a decent living at it.

The essence of the question as I see it is, it is worth it to pursue a career that is meaningful but doesn't pay as well and gets less respect, or keep your work and your creative/meaningful/emotionally fulfilling activities separate?

And ultimately, I feel it's impossible to answer this question in anything more than an individual level. Some people are able to make it work, but not everyone can. And NOT for lack of effort or talent or passion. There are other factors to consider, and especially personality type. Are you someone that is bothered by instability? Then the lack of adequate financial compensation might stress you out more than it's worth. That kind of stress can kill creativity or motivation.

There's also the question of burnout. Spending my days focusing so much on teaching writing, for example, often leaves me little left over to do my own writing. I just have no energy left, and so I get very little of it done. However, on the days when I am doing work completely unrelated, or if I'm not teaching over the summer, I find that a creative impulse grows stronger and stronger, to the point that I can barely contain it anymore. I'm not getting that impulse fulfilled at work, so it comes out after work.

And for me, it makes me not want to make writing my "work." It makes it a little easier to think about working at a more boring, less satisfying job that will a) lessen my stress about finances, and b) allow my creative energy to be put towards the activities that WILL be satisfying to me.

I do still struggle with this on a daily basis, though. These are the questions that having been filling my head for months, even years. It's not an easy question to answer. How exactly does one balance our need to feed ourselves with our desire to feel intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually satisfied?

And in the meantime, while I'm figuring it out, I'm getting my sh*t done, even while having emotions! *gasp*


----------



## DanOstergren (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > but I can also tell you how being told to "*man up*" all my life has caused me all sorts of damage that I am struggling to fix as an adult and has resulted in me finding myself in a crisis clinic before.
> ...


Have you ever seen this?


----------



## DanOstergren (Mar 25, 2015)

bribrius said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > DanOstergren said:
> ...





limr said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > That isn't a good thing. IMO. The men are crying more than the women of thirty years ago did. You guys are putting a total spin on this. It is these old mentalities that survived the great depression, made it through wars, settled the plains. I get that it is "old school thinking" but there is a reason it is there. And i am not "discounting emotion" because of lacking sympathy. Just the reason some of these mentalities existed is because it revolved around sheer survival and building a country. It is easy to say "we shouldn't think like that anymore" but the ones saying that weren't the ones that built the country. *Most of those in the emotion camp never built anything.*  Emotion does little good when you are starving or need to build a house or keep a farm or anything independent and productive.  I could cry over the snow in my driveway but it isn't going to move it out of the way any quicker.
> ...


It's disgusting and appalling.


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

DanOstergren said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > DanOstergren said:
> ...



Very strong indeed! I am trying to raise my son without all the crap that I grew up with so we'll see how that goes.


----------



## DanOstergren (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...


I think the result will be him growing up to be highly confident. I wish my step-dad raised me that way.


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

runnah said:


> Very strong indeed! I am trying to raise my son without all the crap that I grew up with so we'll see how that goes.



Fight the good fight. THAT is worth it, for sure.


----------



## photoguy99 (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm pretty sure you can raise a kid to understand that there are times when you've just got to get on with it, without yelling "don't be a *****!!" at them all the time. Kids are not morons.

The point is not that we have to beat the emotions out of the kids. The point is to teach them that they're in charge of their feelings, not the other way around. That particular message seems to be getting lost.


----------



## runnah (Mar 25, 2015)

DanOstergren said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > DanOstergren said:
> ...



That's my hope! The good thing is most educators seem to have adopted this mentality so that is good.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 25, 2015)

photoguy99 said:


> I'm pretty sure you can raise a kid to understand that there are times when you've just got to get on with it, without yelling "don't be a *****!!" at them all the time. Kids are not morons.
> 
> The point is not that we have to beat the emotions out of the kids. The point is to teach them that they're in charge of their feelings, not the other way around. That particular message seems to be getting lost.


lol. Everyone has different approaches.  My sons are pretty young. So far i am raising my sons talk softly and carry a big stick. They are young though. Will see.  Even my daughter spent years in martial arts competitions and has a closet of weapons..Doesn't mean i don't give her hug every day and she doesn't call me daddy. Just means if anyone ever attacks her or tshtf she takes their head off (hopefully).  I think my goal here is to balance it with prudence and discernment.  My cousin (leo) is raising his kids all no b.s. Gun dealer i know, all three of his boys "talk softly and carry a big stick".  Balance it out with some wits and all is good. But crying in your cheerios.. eh... no.


----------



## Fred Berg (Mar 25, 2015)

Denying and or suppressing emotions is dangerous practice. 

“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.” 
— Sigmund Freud


----------



## limr (Mar 25, 2015)

Tl;dr.


----------



## Fred Berg (Mar 26, 2015)

limr said:


> Tl;dr.



Being succinct was never a strength of mine. I'll try to increase the brevity of my posts in future.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 26, 2015)

Reading the rest of this thread, I just had flashbacks to the dip spitting dads of my childhood. Gonna go take some Aleve to get the bad taste out of my brain, brb


----------



## limr (Mar 26, 2015)

Fred Berg said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Tl;dr.
> ...



No, this wasn't directed at you at all. It was directed at a post that bribrius wrote and then deleted. And I would not have directed this at you anyway; I like to read your posts, short or long.


----------



## Fred Berg (Mar 26, 2015)

limr said:


> Fred Berg said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...



Ah, understood. Ditto.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 26, 2015)

limr said:


> Fred Berg said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


geez, thanks. Yeh, this thread went way off topic. Decided not to add to it anymore. Mod, cleanup on aisle 9......


----------



## pgriz (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm a guy.  I've never really understood the idea that showing emotion was a weakness, although in school there were plenty of times when anyone who did show their feelings were made fun of or bullied.  And yet, those who were doing the mocking were revealing their own fears and insecurities.  The truly strong ones didn't have to put anyone down or "show" their power.  They were not afraid to show emotion, probably because they were secure in who they were and what they were.  I've tried to learn this lesson and apply it to my own family.  My kids (and wife and inlaws) have seen me laugh and cry, be frustrated and angry,  be giddy with delight and numb with sorrow.  It's a naked feeling when your emotions are there for others to see.  And there's a trust as well when those emotions can be seen by others and reacted to.


----------



## Heather Koch (Mar 26, 2015)

The sad thing is, I just took several career tests because I am not happy with my career choice at this moment and now is the time to change (junior in college)...


----------



## Heather Koch (Mar 26, 2015)

In other words, this thread made me more indecisive


----------



## pgriz (Mar 26, 2015)

Heather Koch said:


> In other words, this thread made me more indecisive



Heather, sometimes you can plan for a career.  But given how things change, and how we as people evolve in our thinking and focus, it would not be unusual to change one's career anywhere 3-8 times during one's life.  Serendipity and circumstance play a much more important role than many of us care to admit.  The key appears to be to be open to opportunities and to be unafraid to try something.  So many people never achieve anything because they are afraid to start "just in case that wasn't what I wanted to do anyways".  You just don't know what will "click" with you, until you try and by that I mean really try.  It takes time to acquire enough knowledge of any field to understand what you're doing in it.  If, after getting that expertise, you find that the field is not for you, then it's not a "failure" but a learning opportunity that allows you to have a better insight into yourself and the world around you.


----------



## Heather Koch (Mar 26, 2015)

pgriz said:


> Heather Koch said:
> 
> 
> > In other words, this thread made me more indecisive
> ...



So as I am doing, stick with a general business degree (administration) and find my way along the journey of life?  I completely get and understand your answer.  I see so many people get a degree in specific careers and later do nothing that has to do with the degree.  I feel that is a wasted thing.  I like to spend my time wisely and use all the resources I can to better my life and others lives.  I guess I will continue on my path and see how it pans out


----------



## Designer (Mar 26, 2015)

Heather; try not to get too worked up over it.  It really is a shame how college kids are expected to decide a career path.  Sure, some do, but I think most are simply thrashing about like a fish out of water.


----------



## Heather Koch (Mar 26, 2015)

Designer said:


> Heather; try not to get too worked up over it.  It really is a shame how college kids are expected to decide a career path.  Sure, some do, but I think most are simply thrashing about like a fish out of water.


I agree completely.  Its sad how 12-18 years of school, prepares a child little to NONE for the real world...


----------



## pgriz (Mar 26, 2015)

A business degree is not wasted if it allows you to analyse and apply your knowledge to new fields.  I originally did a degree in biochemistry.  However, my first real job was in an engineering firm.  I applied my knowledge of how to do research, how to look for interconnected processes, how to test and verify my hypotheses to develop what started as an essentially clerical job into one where we built a computer department essentially from scratch.  In THAT job, I learned about the imprecision of known data, of the human foibles that torpedo well-laid plans, in the way management often lives in a different reality from that of the company they "manage".  That knowledge was applied in a different field (software design) where we had to learn how to parse design ideas dreamed up by the marketing and design teams into something that was actually useful to the marketplace.  And so it does.  

In fact, the most powerful ideas are often those which are taken from one field and applied to a completely different one.  Agility of imagination is often much more powerful than ability to memorize data and processes.


----------



## Heather Koch (Mar 26, 2015)

pgriz said:


> A business degree is not wasted if it allows you to analyse and apply your knowledge to new fields.  I originally did a degree in biochemistry.  However, my first real job was in an engineering firm.  I applied my knowledge of how to do research, how to look for interconnected processes, how to test and verify my hypotheses to develop what started as an essentially clerical job into one where we built a computer department essentially from scratch.  In THAT job, I learned about the imprecision of known data, of the human foibles that torpedo well-laid plans, in the way management often lives in a different reality from that of the company they "manage".  That knowledge was applied in a different field (software design) where we had to learn how to parse design ideas dreamed up by the marketing and design teams into something that was actually useful to the marketplace.  And so it does.
> 
> In fact, the most powerful ideas are often those which are taken from one field and applied to a completely different one.  Agility of imagination is often much more powerful than ability to memorize data and processes.


Oh I wasn't saying a business degree is wasteful at all.  I find that most people these days do nothing that has to do with their degree.  

I also find you do learn a lot within various jobs. In which I have found things I like and dislike with certain jobs.


----------



## limr (Mar 26, 2015)

pgriz said:


> A business degree is not wasted if it allows you to analyse and apply your knowledge to new fields.  I originally did a degree in biochemistry.  However, my first real job was in an engineering firm.  I applied my knowledge of how to do research, how to look for interconnected processes, how to test and verify my hypotheses to develop what started as an essentially clerical job into one where we built a computer department essentially from scratch.  In THAT job, I learned about the imprecision of known data, of the human foibles that torpedo well-laid plans, in the way management often lives in a different reality from that of the company they "manage".  That knowledge was applied in a different field (software design) where we had to learn how to parse design ideas dreamed up by the marketing and design teams into something that was actually useful to the marketplace.  And so it does.
> In fact, the most powerful ideas are often those which are taken from one field and applied to a completely different one.  *Agility of imagination is often much more powerful than ability to memorize data and processes.*



To that I would add "critical thinking" which is why a college degree is never a waste, regardless of whether or not it has a direct impact on employment. If you truly take advantage of your time there to learn new ways of understanding and interacting with the world, then you've got tools to help you no matter what direction you end up going in.


----------



## W.Y.Photo (Mar 27, 2015)

Austin Greene said:


> Giving an old-fashioned reply, enough of side-tracked discussion in suicide, imho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




^This is the most (if not the only) useful reply to the Original Post. Having this sort of a mentality will turn obstacles like fighting for respect, making a retail managers salary, or want of a job that you aren't passionate for, into trivial hurdles. They really are unimportant if you remain confidant and focused on the bigger picture. You've made it this far. What's to say you can't make it any further?

Also.. anyone facing similar dillema's.. check this out: TED Talk - Find your Passion Do What you love - YouTube


----------



## bribrius (Mar 27, 2015)

pgriz said:


> I'm a guy.  I've never really understood the idea that showing emotion was a weakness, although in school there were plenty of times when anyone who did show their feelings were made fun of or bullied.  And yet, those who were doing the mocking were revealing their own fears and insecurities.  The truly strong ones didn't have to put anyone down or "show" their power.  They were not afraid to show emotion, probably because they were secure in who they were and what they were.  I've tried to learn this lesson and apply it to my own family.  My kids (and wife and inlaws) have seen me laugh and cry, be frustrated and angry,  be giddy with delight and numb with sorrow.  It's a naked feeling when your emotions are there for others to see.  And there's a trust as well when those emotions can be seen by others and reacted to.


little more  than that. Interesting concept video below. But in all seriousness. The developed world became this way somehow. The u.s became a super power some how. And it wasn't by being a bunch of ninnies.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 27, 2015)

bribrius said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a guy.  I've never really understood the idea that showing emotion was a weakness, although in school there were plenty of times when anyone who did show their feelings were made fun of or bullied.  And yet, those who were doing the mocking were revealing their own fears and insecurities.  The truly strong ones didn't have to put anyone down or "show" their power.  They were not afraid to show emotion, probably because they were secure in who they were and what they were.  I've tried to learn this lesson and apply it to my own family.  My kids (and wife and inlaws) have seen me laugh and cry, be frustrated and angry,  be giddy with delight and numb with sorrow.  It's a naked feeling when your emotions are there for others to see.  And there's a trust as well when those emotions can be seen by others and reacted to.
> ...



Really, it's all about the appropriateness of emotion and how it factors into decision making. 

It's a balance that the concept of "machismo," by its very nature, will not, and cannot understand.

I mean, yes it can get some stuff done, but there is often a severe cost, and that cost isn't always burdened upon the people making the decisions.

I believe the more "enlightened" person can look inside themselves and come to terms with their feelings, while still being able to put them aside (if need be) in order to do what needs to be done.

Humans are emotional by nature. If they weren't, communities would not be able to form.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 27, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > pgriz said:
> ...


Agree to a large extent, especially the highlighted part. It changes with where you grow, where in the world you grow up, generation.   Most of it amounts to spoiled brat syndrome or inner child syndrome in my mind. To be honest. Most everything built, was built by the generations that came before. since the baby boomers it seems to have of stalled and after that we moved to what is more a "entitlement" generation. i was raised pretty much depression era mindset, just how i was raised. so that explains my outlook. Not that i was in the depression, i am fairly young. Just on upbringing.  I think as we have moved further from such instances of catastrophe, as generations pass people do seem to get "soft" though. How soon they forget. And for someone crying in current times, i have to ask what did they accomplish? pretty much baby boomers forward didn't do a hell of a lot. Everyone is living on what others built. Which is fine, that is why they built it. But how soon people forget. Short of 911 (which is horrific i suppose but a penny in the bucket in the terms of historys atrocities) the u.s. culture hasn't had much for a wake up call. so, it develops these "things".  And i question most of it because i ask myself. Well how much is this persons line of thinking worth? what have they experienced? what have they been through? what did they build? And in most cases the answer is nothing. just nothing. They are living on what their great grand dad built. They dont know jack. But seem real quick to come up with a grievance and plenty of time to be emotional. I really cant even take some of the newer mentalities seriously. They come from people, that just did NOTHING.


----------



## rexbobcat (Mar 27, 2015)

bribrius said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



I do think that there are some younger people who are very ignorant to the way progress is made and the way the world works in general. It has been highlighted several times in the past few years. This article says a lot: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/o..._id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000

However, I wouldn't necessarily look at history through rose-tinted glasses. Many of the things that came out of our grandparents' generation happened because it was something that was inevitable.

After the first World War, for example, America's attitude toward world affairs became more and more isolationist. We were thrust into WWII by our government, only after the conflicts became so threatening that it could not be ignored (Pearl Harbor and all that). Then came civil rights, which did not go over very smoothly either.

Was our grandparent's generation just better in general? Maybe. I was not there and we have not been under parallel circumstances, so I can't answer that. The situation is more complex than "older generations good, newer generations ninnies."

What I will say, however, is that things always look better to the winners in hindsight, because they're the ones who write the history books.


----------



## bribrius (Mar 27, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


here is a safe room for them. Send them all. LMAO  I have to admit i like the last line "i got lost on my way to college sir"


----------

