# Trees Comparison



## DGMPhotography (Aug 14, 2012)

Okay, so I took a picture of some trees (in greyscale) and decided to make my first attempt at Photomatix, to which I now have a trial. Can anyone give me tips on using Photomatix? This is just some tonemapping on a single exposure, but I wanted to compare Photomatix to HDRtist (which is much more automated). Also, where did the haloing around some of the trees come from? In this picture the halos don't look too bad, but how come only part of the tree is haloed when almost the same contrast exists throughout? 




Also, what's your opinion on the shot itself?


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## fjrabon (Aug 14, 2012)

in my experience you get way more haloing when you try to tonemap a single exposure than a 5 bracket.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 14, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> in my experience you get way more haloing when you try to tonemap a single exposure than a 5 bracket.



The auto bracketing on my Nikon D5100 is only 3 exposures, how do you get 5? Manually? And if so, how much would you separate each one?


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## zombiemann (Aug 14, 2012)

5 is better than 3 is better than 1.  It is possible to take more than 3 by taking a set, stepping down your exposure take another set, step the expose up take another set


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 14, 2012)

zombiemann said:


> 5 is better than 3 is better than 1.  It is possible to take more than 3 by taking a set, stepping down your exposure take another set, step the expose up take another set



Ohhhh... so then it would be taking multiple of 3's right? Good idea!!  thanks!


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## zombiemann (Aug 14, 2012)

Also keep in mind that some pics look better with fewer frames in the stack.  But on the other hand you can always opt to leave frames out, going to get more frames if you don't have enough is a little different 

On that note though, I should point out that the HDRs that I have shared here on this forum have all been stacks of 3.  This is mainly due to laziness on my part not wanting to stand there fiddling with the camera.  I installed Magic Lantern on my camera earlier (I'm pretty sure it's canon only but their might be a nikon alternative) and it allows me to take 9 frames at one press of the shutter button.  At that point once you get your composition down.... it's cruise control lol


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## zombiemann (Aug 14, 2012)

Can you post the original unmodified please?  I don't care for either processed image, but I think it *might* have some potential


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

zombiemann said:


> Can you post the original unmodified please?  I don't care for either processed image, but I think it *might* have some potential



Whattt!??!?! How do you install software to your camera???? And alas, unfortunately, I don't have an unmodified image... I took the image in monochrome :/


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## rexbobcat (Aug 15, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:
			
		

> Whattt!??!?! How do you install software to your camera???? And alas, unfortunately, I don't have an unmodified image... I took the image in monochrome :/



Your camera processes every image it takes if it's a JPEG. 

And since it was in b&w it was assumed that you did it in PP


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## ann (Aug 15, 2012)

another tip, take in color, pp in color then convert to black and white.


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## fjrabon (Aug 15, 2012)

even with cameras that have auto bracketing I usually do it manually unless the scene is changing rapidly and I need the speed.  

It's as simple as figuring out how dark you want your darkest exposure and then just taking pictures every half stop up until you are at what you think the lightest exposure should be.  Then later you can figure out which 5 (or 3) you want to use.  I have much more success with this than the completely 'dumb' approach the camera takes with auto bracketing.  

Auto bracketing is more useful for getting exposure right when you're not quite sure what the best exposure for the scene would be than it is for HDR, which I think is what everybody uses it for.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


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I know that  But no, you shouldn't make assumptions! Ha, but in all honesty, I SHOULD have taken it in color, I was just experimenting with my camera's different functions.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

ann said:


> another tip, take in color, pp in color then convert to black and white.



Yeah, I was just experimenting with my camera's functions, otherwise, that's what I would normally do.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> even with cameras that have auto bracketing I usually do it manually unless the scene is changing rapidly and I need the speed.
> 
> It's as simple as figuring out how dark you want your darkest exposure and then just taking pictures every half stop up until you are at what you think the lightest exposure should be.  Then later you can figure out which 5 (or 3) you want to use.  I have much more success with this than the completely 'dumb' approach the camera takes with auto bracketing.
> 
> Auto bracketing is more useful for getting exposure right when you're not quite sure what the best exposure for the scene would be than it is for HDR, which I think is what everybody uses it for.



Thanks for the tip! How much is a half stop though? I'm still a little confused about all the fstop stuff.


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## fjrabon (Aug 15, 2012)

a stop is twice (or half if you're going down) the light.  I use shutter speed for HDR brackets so that you have the same DOF, not f/stop (which controls aperture and would thus change the DOF, which would look all kinds of screwy).  

also, I kind of lied, as I don't use exactly half stops, but the method I use tends to be easier to do the calculations in my head and is close enough.  and really going this small in changes is sort of overkill anyway.  

So, if I check the sky and figure that I want it to be exposed at 1/1000 of a sec, and I check the darkest part of my photo and figure that it will be well exposed at 1/30, then my bracket will look something like: 1/1000, 1/750, 1/500, 1/375, 1/250, 1/200, 1/125, 1/60, 1/45, 1/30


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## Bynx (Aug 15, 2012)

*<Rant deleted>  You should* Learn the relationship between Aperture, Shutter Speed and ISO and what they mean. There is a lot of basic stuff to learn before you should even be thinking about HDR. When you learn that stuff then setting your camera manually for 9 shots will come easily.


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## jake337 (Aug 15, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:


> fjrabon said:
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> > in my experience you get way more haloing when you try to tonemap a single exposure than a 5 bracket.
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You could separate each one based on metering the scene.  Meter for the brightest area, meter for the darkest area, and somewhere in between.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> a stop is twice (or half if you're going down) the light.  I use shutter speed for HDR brackets so that you have the same DOF, not f/stop (which controls aperture and would thus change the DOF, which would look all kinds of screwy).
> 
> also, I kind of lied, as I don't use exactly half stops, but the method I use tends to be easier to do the calculations in my head and is close enough.  and really going this small in changes is sort of overkill anyway.
> 
> So, if I check the sky and figure that I want it to be exposed at 1/1000 of a sec, and I check the darkest part of my photo and figure that it will be well exposed at 1/30, then my bracket will look something like: 1/1000, 1/750, 1/500, 1/375, 1/250, 1/200, 1/125, 1/60, 1/45, 1/30



Oh cool! Thanks a lot! I had the terms "stop" and "fstop" confused. I knew about fstop controlling depth of field though. But again, thanks! Really good info!


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

Bynx said:


> *<Rant deleted>  You should* Learn the relationship between Aperture, Shutter Speed and ISO and what they mean. There is a lot of basic stuff to learn before you should even be thinking about HDR. When you learn that stuff then setting your camera manually for 9 shots will come easily.



Bynx, come on man, enough with the hateful stuff! Really, you could say things you want in a much nicer way. I did not get the chance to see your rant before it was deleted, but seriously. I appreciate your input, just not the mean stuff. Instead of telling me what I'm doing wrong, perhaps you could offer some useful information? Such as, what IS the relationship between Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO??


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## KmH (Aug 15, 2012)

You can change lens aperture by a stop. You can change shutter speed by a stop. And, you can change ISO by a stop.

Most DSLR cameras come with a default setting that changes any of those 3 - aperture, shutter speed, ISO - in 1/3 stop steps. Most DSLR cameras will let you change the default steps to 1/2 stop or whole stop steps.

The lens aperture - f-stop - is only one factor that controls DoF. Distance to the focus point, and lens focal length also have significant effect on DoF.

For most HDR exposure sequences you want the DoF to be the same (same lens aperture) for each exposure and only vary the shutter speed or the ISO to record all of the dynamic range in the scene you are wanting to shoot.

Fortunately with shutter speed or ISO, a stop is a true 2x relationship such that a shutter speed of 1/100 lets in 2 times more light than a shutter speed of 1/200, or ISO 800 is 2 times more sensitive to light than ISO 400 is.

With lens aperture f/2 lets in twice as much light as f/2.8 does, or f/5.6 lets in twice as much light as f/8 does. With lens aperture the relationship is based on the square root of 2 - 1/4142. (2 times 1.4142 = 2.8, and 5.6 times 1.4142 = 7.9 which is rounded to 8)


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## KmH (Aug 15, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:


> Bynx said:
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> > *<Rant deleted>  You should* Learn the relationship between Aperture, Shutter Speed and ISO and what they mean. There is a lot of basic stuff to learn before you should even be thinking about HDR. When you learn that stuff then setting your camera manually for 9 shots will come easily.
> ...


Entire books have been written to explain the relationship between Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO. Plus, by relying on self-help you gain the added benefit of discovering information you didn't know you also need to know.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 15, 2012)

KmH said:


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Thanks KmH, good stuff. I was just saying, Bynx doesn't need to be so offensive with whatever it is that he is saying. I really appreciate your advice though.


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## Steve5D (Aug 16, 2012)

Don't worry about what _other _people think you should do. If you want to do something, _do it_. Pay attention to those who try to help, and _not _to those who try to dissuade you. 

People learn differently. I suspect you're the type of person who learns best by actually doing as opposed to sitting in front of a computer and reading page after page of stuff until your eyes glaze over. That works for some people, but I think most people learn by actually getting out there and hitting the shutter.

Oh, and I give you about a week before that Photomatix watermark drives you nuts!


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## jake337 (Aug 16, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Don't worry about what other people think you should do. If you want to do something, do it. Pay attention to those who try to help, and not to those who try to dissuade you.
> 
> People learn differently. I suspect you're the type of person who learns best by actually doing as opposed to sitting in front of a computer and reading page after page of stuff until your eyes glaze over. That works for some people, but I think most people learn by actually getting out there and hitting the shutter.
> 
> Oh, and I give you about a week before that Photomatix watermark drives you nuts!



It only took me two photos to drive me nuts...


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## Steve5D (Aug 16, 2012)

jake337 said:


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Same here...


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## fjrabon (Aug 16, 2012)

side note, I really wish there was a way you could create a hybrid bracket method, where your camera would first start by adjusting the shutter speed, but then when it got to some predetermined level, it would begin bracketing with ISO, and do this automatically.  This would be nice for shooting quickly moving clouds, where the end exposures end up being long to the point of losing definition in the moving clouds.  

Of course you can do it manually, but sometimes the delay is such that you get a lot of ghosting in the clouds if you do HDR, because it took you too long to change both shutter speed and ISO and the clouds moved in between shots too much.


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## Bynx (Aug 16, 2012)

Clouds arent too much of a problem if you shoot as quickly as you can and use the deghosting feature of Photomatix. Unless you have a high end camera like the D4, most DSLRs can only do 3 shots AEB. I shoot whatever number of shots I need manually. Its not as fast as machine gun fire of the D4 but it gets the job done with no mistakes. Find your highlights so there are no blinkies then shoot reducing your shutter speed by 1 fstop for each shot you need until the darkest areas are covered.


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## jake337 (Aug 16, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> side note, I really wish there was a way you could create a hybrid bracket method, where your camera would first start by adjusting the shutter speed, but then when it got to some predetermined level, it would begin bracketing with ISO, and do this automatically.  This would be nice for shooting quickly moving clouds, where the end exposures end up being long to the point of losing definition in the moving clouds.
> 
> Of course you can do it manually, but sometimes the delay is such that you get a lot of ghosting in the clouds if you do HDR, because it took you too long to change both shutter speed and ISO and the clouds moved in between shots too much.




If you have an android tablet you could also download an app to control your camera tethered.  I'm not sure if they have it working for nikon yet but you can set up a 45 shot bracket.  I'm also not sure how fast it will take the exposures.

tethered shooting from a smart phone ! - Open Photography Forums


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## Bynx (Aug 16, 2012)

I have the app and the Android Asus Transformer Pad. It works with the Nikon and Canon with an extra feature for the Canon. It will take up to 15 bracketed exposures. Only problem I see is it will only save as Jpeg and only to the tablet. Its slower than mole asses in January. I can see the app useful for focus stacking which isnt time dependent.


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## fjrabon (Aug 16, 2012)

Bynx said:


> Clouds arent too much of a problem if you shoot as quickly as you can and use the deghosting feature of Photomatix. Unless you have a high end camera like the D4, most DSLRs can only do 3 shots AEB. I shoot whatever number of shots I need manually. Its not as fast as machine gun fire of the D4 but it gets the job done with no mistakes. Find your highlights so there are no blinkies then shoot reducing your shutter speed by 1 fstop for each shot you need until the darkest areas are covered.



The loss in image quality you get from deghosting always annoys me a tiny bit.  

I mean on the scale of big deals, this minor annoyance is pretty far down there.  But it is enough to drive me to manual exposure blending from time to time.  That way you just use one exposure for the sky/clouds, set to whatever ISO and SS you like, and you don't have to worry about ghosting effects, since that part of the scene is just one exposure.  

Basically I sort of mentally divide the frame by exposure zones, then blend my bracketed exposures in piece by piece.


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## jake337 (Aug 16, 2012)

Bynx said:


> I have the app and the Android Asus Transformer Pad. It works with the Nikon and Canon with an extra feature for the Canon. It will take up to 15 bracketed exposures. Only problem I see is it will only save as Jpeg and only to the tablet. Its slower than mole asses in January. I can see the app useful for focus stacking which isnt time dependent.




Oh, I didn't know it would only save as jpeg.  Damn!


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Don't worry about what _other _people think you should do. If you want to do something, _do it_. Pay attention to those who try to help, and _not _to those who try to dissuade you.
> 
> People learn differently. I suspect you're the type of person who learns best by actually doing as opposed to sitting in front of a computer and reading page after page of stuff until your eyes glaze over. That works for some people, but I think most people learn by actually getting out there and hitting the shutter.
> 
> Oh, and I give you about a week before that Photomatix watermark drives you nuts!



Steve, you're the freaking man. That's the same point I've tried to make to Bynx. Some people just learn differently  And yes, that watermark already annoys me..


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> side note, I really wish there was a way you could create a hybrid bracket method, where your camera would first start by adjusting the shutter speed, but then when it got to some predetermined level, it would begin bracketing with ISO, and do this automatically.  This would be nice for shooting quickly moving clouds, where the end exposures end up being long to the point of losing definition in the moving clouds.
> 
> Of course you can do it manually, but sometimes the delay is such that you get a lot of ghosting in the clouds if you do HDR, because it took you too long to change both shutter speed and ISO and the clouds moved in between shots too much.



That would be interesting! They'll probably have it eventually.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

jake337 said:


> fjrabon said:
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> > side note, I really wish there was a way you could create a hybrid bracket method, where your camera would first start by adjusting the shutter speed, but then when it got to some predetermined level, it would begin bracketing with ISO, and do this automatically.  This would be nice for shooting quickly moving clouds, where the end exposures end up being long to the point of losing definition in the moving clouds.
> ...



That's pretty neat!


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## fjrabon (Aug 16, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:


> fjrabon said:
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> > side note, I really wish there was a way you could create a hybrid bracket method, where your camera would first start by adjusting the shutter speed, but then when it got to some predetermined level, it would begin bracketing with ISO, and do this automatically.  This would be nice for shooting quickly moving clouds, where the end exposures end up being long to the point of losing definition in the moving clouds.
> ...



I doubt it, because it would probably be too confusing for most amateurs to actually use, and I don't really see it as something most pros would want.  They could easily do it today, and just don't, because likely nobody really wants it except a few (like me) and even for those few it wouldn't be a big enough deal to really make or break a choice to buy or not buy a new body.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Aug 16, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:


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No one assumes that a black and white picture was shot in "monochrome JPEG" in camera, so it is pretty much a given on a photography forum that conversions are done in post one way or another. Shooting monochrome is pretty much the worst thing you can do, when there's unlimited software out there to make the perfect black and white out of each of your color photos. 

If you look at both of these images, which one is better to you? The one that looks like some sort of neon lights are glowing from the trees with a blue sky, or the calm silhouettes of the trees against a neutral sky? Let's not forget the photograph aspect of all this. I know this wasn't your question, but the black and white is far better than your edit. 

A lot of your questions have been explained in detail here. But as Bynx and others have said, don't put the cart before the horse. Learn the basics of the exposure triangle, get comfortable with that, then look to advance into specialty fields like this.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


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Well thank you for your input. This was like a watered down Bynx comment, which I like.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


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And I never actually asked which is better...


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Aug 16, 2012)

DGMPhotography said:


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Yeah, I mentioned that.


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## Bynx (Aug 16, 2012)

There is also an app called Magic Lantern. So far its only for Canon cameras. It might be what we are looking for in terms of machine gun firing the 7 or 9 or 11 shots saving them to the camera's  SD card.


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## zombiemann (Aug 16, 2012)

Bynx said:


> There is also an app called Magic Lantern. So far its only for Canon cameras. It might be what we are looking for in terms of machine gun firing the 7 or 9 or 11 shots saving them to the camera's  SD card.



Actually I JUST installed that on my T2i a few days ago.. Unfortunately the installation also heralded the end of the 4 month drought be have been having here lol.  It never fails, anytime I get something for my camera or telescope it rains or is extremely cloudy for several days.  I did get to play with it a little the day I installed it and from what I saw it is pretty much exactly what you are talking about.  It will take up to 9 frames "rapid fire" auto bracketing exposure.  It also has an "auto detect" listed but I am not sure how/how well that functions.


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## Bynx (Aug 16, 2012)

Good to hear. I hope they come out with a Nikon version.


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## DGMPhotography (Aug 16, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


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Sorry, my bad, I thought you were referring to something else.


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