# Anyone have a rifle scope?



## dEARlEADER (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been hired to shoot at a hunt camp this upcoming deer season.  I will be shooting the final two days and there is a 50/50 chance that most tags will be used up sometime during this point.  I have an idea for a shot and I'm not sure if it's possible.

I want to to take a shot through a rifle scope of a deer in the cross hairs.  I would like some shallow DOF around the perimeter with sharp focus through the scope.  Is this even possible? I don't hunt and don't have a rifle scope and was just wondering if anyone has tried anything like this.

I will only be able to do this shot if all the tags are used... I don't think any of the hunters will want to share their scope if they have a good opportunity.


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## chrisburke (Oct 10, 2008)

great idea.. make sure you post it... but not the dead animals.. thats sad...


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## zeroskillz (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm also a gun dealer, so here's my advice:
yes, this is possible, but tricky.
Scopes are set so that the point at which you see the image clearly through them is a couple inches from the scope--picture it mounted on a rifle and your head a bit behind it. If you get right up on the scope you only get a partial image (and a black eye if you pull the trigger).

As a result, unless you mount both camera and scope, it will be extreemly tricky to get the scope in the right spot while looking through the camera and find a deer in it all at the same time. Can we say shakey?

I would shoot the shots separately--one through the scope, one of a deer, and put them together in post. Otherwise, rig something up with a tripod and scope rail to mount things together. Also, you'll need to have the scope ahead of time to do that.

Or if your guys have a portable shooting bench and can bench rest the rifle, setting it on the spot and then quickly getting out of the way for you to take the shot before the deer moves that could be an option. The key is that you don't want to have to try and hold the camera in one hand and scope in the other while trying to line up the shot.

Or you could just wing it...definitely worth a try, but really difficult...

HTH
-Ted


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## Parkerman (Oct 10, 2008)

Just wondering... Have you ever looked through a scope? Unless you somehow build a rig with one.. It won't be easy to do. I might suggest just doing something after in photoshop.. or cutting out your own crosshairs.


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## chrisburke (Oct 10, 2008)

they make good points...  i dont know how skilled you are with photoshop.. but you might just want to take a pic of the deer and then add the crosshairs in PP.. like this: (image source : http://www.bwoptic.com/ )


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 10, 2008)

zeroskillz said:


> I'm also a gun dealer, so here's my advice:
> yes, this is possible, but tricky.
> Scopes are set so that the point at which you see the image clearly through them is a couple inches from the scope--picture it mounted on a rifle and your head a bit behind it. If you get right up on the scope you only get a partial image (and a black eye if you pull the trigger).
> 
> ...



great advice thanks.... not sure if this can be done now... with the scope set up for best focal at 2" I don't know if the minimum focus distance of the lens will allow me to get that close... guess I'll need to use the 105 macro to even consider a shot like this...

originallly I thought I could could just shoot this with the scope on the hunters rifle but thinking now I'll need a detached scope...

maybe camera on a monopod and handholding scope firing burst while moving it in and out hoping to a keeper...

what about the magnification aspect? how will a 105mm at 1:1 appear through the view finder when pointed through a magnifying device?


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 10, 2008)

Regarding a processed version of what I'm looking to do.....  I'd much rather get an authentic s.o.o.c. version, but will do this in post if I can't achieve the goal...


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## usayit (Oct 10, 2008)

Instead of a "Real" rifle scope.... you'd probably be better off attaching a DIY tube with cross hairs.  Avoid putting more optics in front of the camera.

Try a toilet paper cardboard tube with toothpicks inserted for cross hairs.  They'll be close enough to the lens and underexposed (relative to subject) that the details of the tube/toothpicks wouldn't show up in the image.


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## zeroskillz (Oct 10, 2008)

If your really serious about this, there is a rangefinding rifle scope
 out there with video outs on it.
 I forget who makes it, but it was at SHOT Show last year.

That would get you a video straight off the scope that you could grab stills from.

FWIW,
-Ted


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## roadkill (Oct 10, 2008)

A friend of mine cut a pair of old binoculars in half and attatched to a point and shoot for use as a zoom.  It actually worked (for what it was) and he got some pretty good shots (for what it was).


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## Joves (Oct 10, 2008)

You could use a nify fifty to shoot afocally but, you would have to make a mount to hold the scope correctly. More like a cone mounted to a lens filter ring. You then set the 50 at infinity and focus through the scope. It is the same thing I used to do for astrophotography.


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## Bifurcator (Oct 10, 2008)

PhotoShop will work well as others have said.

Also you can get a Nikon 880 or 950 (coolpix) for about $50 and just butt the lens against the scope for perfect shots everytime - AF even works!. I've done it allot - it works great! Rifle scopes, telescopes, microscopes, etc. Beautiful images result!


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## zeroskillz (Oct 11, 2008)

All rants aside, I strongly suggest you borrow a scope before you go to see how it works for you. Get some shots of the neighbors dog or something with it to see how feasible the shot is.

Good luck with it, it's real tricky.

IBTL
-Ted


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 11, 2008)

zeroskillz said:


> All rants aside, I strongly suggest you borrow a scope before you go to see how it works for you. Get some shots of the neighbors dog or something with it to see how feasible the shot is.
> 
> Good luck with it, it's real tricky.
> 
> ...




thanks... i'll be there for 2 days so I'll have some time to experiment..


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## usayit (Oct 11, 2008)

I still don't see why you must use an actual rifle scope to accomplish the effect.....


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 11, 2008)

usayit said:


> I still don't see why you must use an actual rifle scope to accomplish the effect.....




authenticity.... the only reason.... otherwise I would just slap it together in post...

I'm looking for print sales outta this one and feel these type of people are more likely to buy an authentic print as opposed to a print where I am running around with a tube of toilet paper ....

I am only getting paid $250/day which isn't much considering I must draw vacation time from my day job to be there.... so I gotta make it up in prints...

i'm also curious just to try it as an experiment... it's not really a huge deal... just something for fun...


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## usayit (Oct 11, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> authenticity.... the only reason.... otherwise I would just slap it together in post...
> 
> I'm looking for print sales outta this one and feel these type of people are more likely to buy an authentic print as opposed to a print where I am running around with a tube of toilet paper ....




Ah... so authenticity is taking precedence.  Ok .. understand.  How about fashioning a digital point and shoot to the end of a scope?  Smaller lens that should fit in the eye-piece.


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 11, 2008)

usayit said:


> Ah... so authenticity is taking precedence.  Ok .. understand.  How about fashioning a digital point and shoot to the end of a scope?  Smaller lens that should fit in the eye-piece.




seems like a p&s is the way to go... guess i'll be whipping out my sony cybershot for this one... may as well just leave the 5 grand in camera gear i've recently bought back at the hunt camp... lol... a tool for every job i suppose


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## Joves (Oct 11, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> seems like a p&s is the way to go... guess i'll be whipping out my sony cybershot for this one... may as well just leave the 5 grand in camera gear i've recently bought back at the hunt camp... lol... a tool for every job i suppose


Well you will still need the 5K equipment for the posed shots with their trophy. I never liked trophy hunters much, I hunt to eat. But they generally have money to burn so you should do well on prints and, or, CDs. The great thing with the P&S is it will let you zoom even when mated to a scope. I used to do it with my Coolpix 995 all the time. 


Bifurcator said:


> LOL
> 
> Plants are alive too! Vegans are killers - plain and simple - let us not mince words.
> 
> John, ever consider eating rocks?


:lmao: So true! But I guess the plants dont get a group to protect them.


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## mrodgers (Oct 11, 2008)

http://digiscopingukbirds.homestead.com/

Might have some ideas in there for you.  Most are spotting scopes though.

I was going to order a spotting scope from my 10 yr anniversary gift at work.  I ordered a home theater system instead.  What a POS.  At least the scope was a brand name and would have been a quality product.  I should have went for the scope.


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## Battou (Oct 13, 2008)

I've not read any replies but here is my input.



dEARlEADER said:


> I have been hired to shoot at a hunt camp this upcoming deer season.  I will be shooting the final two days and there is a 50/50 chance that most tags will be used up sometime during this point.  I have an idea for a shot and I'm not sure if it's possible.
> 
> I want to to take a shot through a rifle scope of a deer in the cross hairs.  I would like some shallow DOF around the perimeter with sharp focus through the scope.  Is this even possible? I don't hunt and don't have a rifle scope and was just wondering if anyone has tried anything like this.
> 
> I will only be able to do this shot if all the tags are used... I don't think any of the hunters will want to share their scope if they have a good opportunity.



This is a technique called "Digi-scoping" But there is several draw backs. 
First and foremost; You are not going to be able to accomplish this with yout dSLR with out serious modification/improvision, The scopes viewer is smaller than the filter diameter of any modern lens. Accomplishing this is no different than taking a photo of a camera viewfinder. Your best bet is to use a digital Point and shoot on the closeup setting with the flash off (obviously lol )

Second; is steadying the camera and scope, if you think of the scope as what it will be acting as...it's a really long telephoto lens, the difference being that this one does not stick to both a tripod and the camera. This is one aria I have yet to find an answer for 

Third; The scope it self is going to require longer exposures beyond that of consumer level telephotos, If I was to guess it would prolly behave something like a 400mm f/22 as opposed to a 400mm f/5.6. This will amplify the issue with stability


As you can tell, I have been considering doing this for a wile, but I can't seem to get passed the issues. 


Additionally, If you know how to intentionally vignet your image you could simulate the scope on your telephoto lens by adding cross hairs infront of the front element with the use of a hood, long hair and some tape :mrgreen:


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## Bifurcator (Oct 13, 2008)

Battou, 

I've done this allot and:

You can do this with a dSLR with off-the-shelf parts made just for doing this.

It's not dark much at all. A stop maybe in some cases - for me it's always been about the same as if there were no scope at all.  Honest.

You don't want close focus.. Zoom (probably) all the way in and (probably) focus at infinite - depending. Contrast based AF works fine though.

There are adaptors for spotting scopes and telescopes if you're using a 35mm and there are brackets for P&S cameras. http://www.warehouseexpress.com/category/basecategory.aspx?cat03=3046&brand=168  I bought one for a Nikon P&S that works with any round eyepiece from about 2cm ~ 5cm ø.   I think I paid $35 for it. It can hold maybe 5 or 6 of my pocketable P&S cameras.

So, there ya go... all your issues addressed.


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## Battou (Oct 13, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> Battou,
> 
> I've done this allot and:[*]It's not dark much at all. A stop maybe in some cases - for me it's always been about the same as if there were no scope at all.  Honest.




My experience with camera viewfinders begs to differ, but anywho. Being the broke ass that I am, I am stuck having to improvise, but I apprieciate the thought.


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## Bifurcator (Oct 13, 2008)

Yep. Camera viewfinders are a totally different animal.


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## Battou (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't see how, it's the same basic principal isn't it?


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## Bifurcator (Oct 13, 2008)

Battou said:


> I don't see how, it's the same basic principal isn't it?



No sir.


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 13, 2008)

lol.... I went away for three days and come back to see this thread still kicking...

as battou and others suggested... i will be trying the shot with my p&s...

thanks


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## RacePhoto (Oct 13, 2008)

chrisburke said:


> they make good points...  i dont know how skilled you are with photoshop.. but you might just want to take a pic of the deer and then add the crosshairs in PP.. like this: (image source : http://www.bwoptic.com/ )



Scopes don't have very good optical quality, so unless you want the distortion and lack of light as a challenge, I agree with photoshop the scope in later. You might be able to just take a shot through a scope, of the open sky, so you have a nice authentic cross-hairs and layer it over the pictures later.

I hate to ruin a good PC rant with someone trying to tell me how to run my personal life according to their arbitrary rules, but I hope I did.  PC people practice a form of censorship, by shouting until everyone leaves the discussion, or it gets locked.

This is the photo forum, not a political agenda soap box. Thank You.


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## Bifurcator (Oct 13, 2008)

I think it depends on the scope. Cheap ones aren't that great but a good scope has superb optical qualities! Up around $200 and over (you can pay $2,000 for a nice scope!) and you're talking as good or better than most 35mm camera lenses! :thumbup:

I have a Nikon ProStaff and a Leupold VX-III ($200 and $900 respectively) that I like a lot!


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## sxesweets (Oct 14, 2008)

I have seen the scopes that someone mentions and in our seach (my father owns a hunting lodge) we haven't been able to find anything, so far, that had a reasonable enough quality picture. 

This camera does not have the same magnification as the scope so you will not get as acurate of a picture of what the scope is really seeing. 
http://www.bushnell.com/general/vidoescope_73-7000V.cfm

Have fun trying this. Interested to see how the pictures turn out.



John_Olexa said:


> Hunting sucks


 
We use it to put meat on our table. OH always says that "There is room on Gods earth for all creatures, right beside my mashed potatoes" And his other one for this is the word vegetarian really means... "He who can't hunt"


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## zeroskillz (Oct 14, 2008)

This thread is still around? Oh good lord, looky where the conversations one. Veggie crap gives me the farts. That's about all I have to say about that.

Anyhow, I think I may have to pull out my EBR and give this a try just for fun.

Alrighty, here you go:





(Nikon D90, f3.5, 18mm, 1/8, iso800, not that any of that is particularly relevant)

My scopes minimum distance to get the crosshairs and 'target' in focus on the same plane is 50 yards, and my house isn't hat big, so that's why the wall isn't in focus. The rifle was rested in the table (bipod and some books to get it pointed at something), and getting the camera into the 'sweet' spot really wasn't that difficult. It would be real hard to do it without having the rfle rested on something.

good luck!
-Ted


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 14, 2008)

zeroskillz said:


> This thread is still around? Oh good lord, looky where the conversations one. Veggie crap gives me the farts. That's about all I have to say about that.
> 
> Anyhow, I think I may have to pull out my EBR and give this a try just for fun.
> 
> ...



Excellent!! This is pretty much the result I am looking for.... thanks for taking the time.


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## KD5NRH (Oct 14, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> Excellent!! This is pretty much the result I am looking for.... thanks for taking the time.



Just had a thought; get a piece of tubing or some such, and some scope rings that can be mounted to it.  Add a 1/4x20 stud at the back end, and figure out some spacers to center the scope eyepiece in the lens, and you should be able to rig an easily carried and aimed mount for a good P&S, while you keep your SLR ready for 'normal' shots.


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## terri (Oct 15, 2008)

Please stay on topic or this thread will disappear. That would be a shame, because there is good information here, whether it will be used by many people or not. But I don't have the time to root through it again. 

Thank you for your cooperation.


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## chrisburke (Oct 15, 2008)

terri said:


> Please stay on topic or this thread will disappear. That would be a shame, because there is good information here, whether it will be used by many people or not. But I don't have the time to root through it again.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.



thanks ref, good job keepin us inline.. i think many of us were waiting for one of you to chime in


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## table1349 (Oct 15, 2008)

terri said:


> Please stay on topic or this thread will disappear. That would be a shame, because there is good information here, whether it will be used by many people or not. But I don't have the time to root through it again.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.


 

Thank you.


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## RacePhoto (Oct 15, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> I think it depends on the scope. Cheap ones aren't that great but a good scope has superb optical qualities! Up around $200 and over (you can pay $2,000 for a nice scope!) and you're talking as good or better than most 35mm camera lenses! :thumbup:
> 
> I have a Nikon ProStaff and a Leupold VX-III ($200 and $900 respectively) that I like a lot!



Wow, I didn't realize that instead of buying my Canon IS/USM lenses for $1000 to $3000, I should just be picking up a $200 scope that's as good or better. :er:

I know what you are trying to say, but the average scope is NOT as good as an average camera lens.

For the purposes of the project, the visual through the scope doesn't need to be crisp and clear, unless someone is fudging it with a crosshair layer. The actual scope image adds to the effect as far as I'm concerned.

I still think that photoshop or elements would do a fine job of creating this effect, just make a second image resized slightly larger, add a crosshair and merge it over the original shot.

Or possibly take two shots, one sharp and one soft focus, put the sharp one as the scope view and the soft one as the background. You would have complete control over the lighting in both.

Similar to dropping a nice Moon into a scenic shot, where it would be impossible to expose both correctly and have that nice big orange hunters Moon in the sky, at the same time.

Just to go along with the original question, I've shot through sun glasses as polarizers with a P&S, shot through  binnoculars and hand held lenses on front of the camera to create effects, you don't need to mount anything, just aim and shoot. :thumbup: Most of all, experiment and have a good time.

You could hold a scope up in front of the camera, mounted on a piece of black pipe and avoid the weight of the rifle.

Good luck with the project.


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## Bifurcator (Oct 15, 2008)

RacePhoto said:


> Wow, I didn't realize that instead of buying my Canon IS/USM lenses for $1000 to $3000, I should just be picking up a $200 scope that's as good or better. :er:



LOL, of course they're manufactured for different purposes - I thought that was a given? But the optical quality of and average scope is on par with the optical quality of the average camera lens. A $1,000 scope's optical properties or optical quality if you will, is on par with a $1,000 camera lens - generally speaking.

Anyway, it's kind of a dumb side point I was making in rebut to someone saying that scopes weren't HQ enough to really consider taking a pic through. I was pointing out that indeed they are and some of scopes are even better quality than some camera lenses - which of course remains true. Rifle scopes obviously are not manufactured with the intention of attaching them to your camera body.


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## table1349 (Oct 15, 2008)

Something like photoshop might be the way to go.  I did this in about 5 minutes from start to finish including getting the reticle and making a transparent gif out of it.


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## Josh66 (Oct 15, 2008)

I do have a few rifle scopes...

I just tried this to see if it would be doable.

There is no way in hell you're going to be able to shoot through the scope in the field (and see a deer in the crosshairs) without mounting the camera to the rifle, or the scope to the camera.

I would try to get a shot through the scope (hopefully with some tress or something in it), then get a seperate shot of the deer and merge them in PS.


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## Corey123 (Oct 15, 2008)

I'd use a zoom lens, and add the rest in photoshop.  You can always use the blur tool on the subject, and have the site as a separate layer.


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## KD5NRH (Oct 16, 2008)

O|||||||O said:


> There is no way in hell you're going to be able to shoot through the scope in the field (and see a deer in the crosshairs) without mounting the camera to the rifle, or the scope to the camera.



I wouldn't mount the camera to the rifle; that would be pointing a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.  (well, with the gun, anyway)

Check with a gunsmith and see if he's got any junk stocks laying around that would work.  Nearly any bolt-action rifle stock should work.  It just needs to have the shoulder stock and enough forearm for you to mount a dummy action and hold on for aiming.

A 1" pipe in place of the action would give you a place to mount the scope, and you could drill straight up through the wrist to mount a 1/4x20 bolt for the camera to sit on.  For this purpose, the scope doesn't have to be rock-steady against recoil like on an actual rifle, just stable enough that it wont be wobbling around while you're lining up.  

Mount the pipe to the stock with screw-type hose clamps, and use a low-power air rifle or .22 scope to simplify matters greatly.  The big costs in more expensive scopes are mostly for their ability to handle recoil forces, rather than significantly better optics.  Just make sure it has a decent sized (40mm or larger if possible) objective lens (second number in the descriptor, try for a 2x40 or 3x40) to get enough light and put a flip-up cover on the objective to keep dust off.


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## Bifurcator (Oct 16, 2008)

Yeah, same here. Unless I wanted it wider to include the scope mount and maybe parts of the barrel. 

I would use a $50 bracket made just for this purpose that can position the camera in X, Y, and Z about 4 to 6 inches (depending on the bracket).  I have one for P&S's and a 1000mm f/5 telescope somewhere around here. It would work for scopes too and kinda be like a lens extension - held, pointed along with the camera. But, I already said that I think... Hmm.  Slaps self - must.. not.. repeat.. myself.. so often..


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## KD5NRH (Oct 16, 2008)

One of the advantages of using the actual stock is that it would still look like a gun in the out-of-focus part of the shot.  The barrel really shouldn't ever be within the FOV of the scope anyway, so you wouldn't want it in the photo.


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## Dragonfly..shotz (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi all, i contacted a friend on an australian photography forum who has this shot in their avatar. With her permission I have linked it below. Thought it was very creative taken through a rifle scope of a sunset. It was taken with a point and shoot. Is this the effect you were after but with an animal? Al mentioned next time she took the shot she would clean the scope lol


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## dEARlEADER (Oct 20, 2008)

thanks for posting.... yes this is the shot i'm looking to achieve without assembly in ps...

seems like the point and shoot wins for this task....


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