# I thought this was Beyond the Basics?



## imagemaker46 (Mar 9, 2011)

I've been reading through some of the posts and they they are sounding like beginner questions. I have been a professional photographer for over 35 years and some of the suggestions posted to the questions sound like they are coming from point and shoot camera owners. I'll offer advice where I can and if I come across a little harsh in my responses, well that's the way I tell it. I don't candy coat anything when it comes to photography, and if I offend anyone, don't wait for a heart felt apology, there won't be one coming.  Being honest is harsh.


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## Trever1t (Mar 9, 2011)

good, as it's supposed to be.


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## Fender5388 (Mar 10, 2011)

awesome finally someone to answer my questions!!!

one question for now, When i take pictures on my dads nikon n90s, where do the pictures show up at? i cant for the life of me figure out how to make them show on the top screen.


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## Village Idiot (Mar 10, 2011)

And as many times as I've said it and no one here with the power to change things cares; leaving people to decide for themselves where to base post when forums are divided into categories that don't have concrete divisions between them will get you a huge mess of random posts in random forums. That is why the beginner forum is a giant dumping ground for everything. What are they basics? Everything past manual mode and learning shutter speed, aperture, and ISO? Well, how come there's posts about flash photography and posts with some photos that can only be acheived with advanced techniques all over the beginner's forum.

"Photographic Discussions", is the whole reason people visit this board. Pretty much 90% of the forums are about photographic discussions. POTN has it right by dividing based on concrete identifiers. There's a gear section divided in to P&S, DSLR, lenses, lighting equipment, and accessories. Then each section is divided into forums based on something where the user doesn't have to make up their own mind of it's too advanced or not to belong in the beginner forum. That's also why the actual photo section of this board is dead. Someone decided that since the noobs had to be constantly reminded that they weren't supposed to post photo in the beginner section and were supposed to use the photo section, that they might as well just change it to beginner discussion and gallery, so that it could become photo dump. Now the photo section of this board is suffering because of it.

But hey, if people in charge aren't willing to take valide suggestions and make an effort to change this place for the better, then they can't really expect the participants to do the same. Lead by example and not by solely trying to generate revenue off your users.


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## Village Idiot (Mar 10, 2011)

Fender5388 said:


> awesome finally someone to answer my questions!!!
> 
> one question for now, When i take pictures on my dads nikon n90s, where do the pictures show up at? i cant for the life of me figure out how to make them show on the top screen.


 
I'm guessing they're where ever you dropped the film off to get it developed at?


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## Big Mike (Mar 10, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I've been reading through some of the posts and they they are sounding like beginner questions. I have been a professional photographer for over 35 years and some of the suggestions posted to the questions sound like they are coming from point and shoot camera owners. I'll offer advice where I can and if I come across a little harsh in my responses, well that's the way I tell it. I don't candy coat anything when it comes to photography, and if I offend anyone, don't wait for a heart felt apology, there won't be one coming.  Being honest is harsh.


 
Like it or not, the vast majority of users on this forum are people who are new to photography.  People come and people go...but we probably get a dozen or more new members every day, most of which are new to photography in one way or another.  

The result of this is that many long time users and/or seasoned photographers will find that the forum's usefulness to them fades.  
However, many of us keep coming back here for other reasons.  A big part of it is the community and the friends we've made here.  Another part of it, is directly related to all the 'newbies' that come here...we love to teach.  For me personally, I spend most of my time here helping others and I really enjoy it.  When I have questions that I need answered, I'll often use another source...maybe a forum that has a much higher percentage of pro photographers.


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## o hey tyler (Mar 10, 2011)

OP - Don't think you are breaking new ground by being honest and direct. There's a lot of people like that here. Myself included.


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## Joves (Mar 10, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I've been reading through some of the posts and they they are sounding like beginner questions. I have been a professional photographer for over 35 years and some of the suggestions posted to the questions sound like they are coming from point and shoot camera owners. I'll offer advice where I can and if I come across a little harsh in my responses, well that's the way I tell it. I don't candy coat anything when it comes to photography, and if I offend anyone, don't wait for a heart felt apology, there won't be one coming. Being honest is harsh.



I agree with you fully. I really dont do critiques mush because if you are honest then you are a prick, even if you offer advice for the next time. I dont come here like I used to becaue to me the place is like a train wreck. But I do read here most of the time to watch the wreck.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 10, 2011)

Didn't figure I'd be doing anything new by being honest on a photo forum. I know that the ones that listen to what I say and appreciate it are the ones that will go further with a camera than those that whine about comments being made. I don't think there is much that I might say that hasn't already been said somewhere on this forum, but starting new to it, I'm not going to read back over and see what has been said. I'll toss out suggestions when I think they will help. I will also back up my comments when challenged. I do understand that most of these forums are built on amateurs, some want to learn, some think they are ready to be professionals. The ones that think they are ready, I usually just advise them to quit their full time jobs today, and see how long they last as a full time photographer, if in 6 months they aren't 3 months behind on the rent and bills then they may have a chance.


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## gsgary (Mar 10, 2011)

o hey tyler said:


> OP - Don't think you are breaking new ground by being honest and direct. There's a lot of people like that here. Myself included.


 
Who have you got in mind


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## Alpha (Mar 10, 2011)

Probably me, among others.

Part of the problem in this section is clearly lack of moderation. Threads need to be moved around.


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## Dubious Drewski (Mar 10, 2011)

This is a great forum for beginners (Yes, even this "Beyond the basics" section is for beginners, whether you agree or not)

I started here, and I loved it here. But if you're looking for an _actual_ professional photographer's forum that's active, and full of very experienced photographers, you go to fredmiranda.com.


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## MissCream (Mar 10, 2011)

You mean that my moms Friends cat pictures arent advanced?


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## shadylady (Mar 10, 2011)

I am still new to photography, so I have lots of questions. But I personally like an honest opinion and feedback because I want to learn! Lol


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## Overread (Mar 10, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I don't candy coat anything when it comes to photography, and if I offend anyone, don't wait for a heart felt apology, there won't be one coming.  Being honest is harsh.


 
As I always say there's a big difference between being honest(harsh) and being constructive in critique. Sadly some forget the latter part and focus only on being harsh/honest (they also tend to only ever point out the bad and never the good). 

The other problem is that some seem more harsh than they actually are because they need a poke/prompt to give over more details or because their method of writing appears more dismissive than they actually intend it to be.



EDIT: just before this thread runs away from things (because I'm going to bed now and won't be here to see what happens to it ) I'll clarify that my reply above, whilst quoting, is not targeted against anyone. It's a generalist statement made against the general point of "harsh is honest" viewpoint.


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## RockstarPhotography (Mar 10, 2011)

You can be honest without being harsh.  Nobody likes, or will take advice from a prick.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 10, 2011)

Some don't know the difference.


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## Garbz (Mar 11, 2011)

All of this is really beside the point. You can get the same info all over the forum, but the point is the organisation structure has gone to ****. 

On the one side we're talking home made monopods. Quite beyond the basics.
On the other we're critiquing a snapshot of the beach which isn't even straight for someone who doesn't know how to straighten it. 

One of them is a beginners question and the other is not. The only type of critiques that really qualify for beyond the basics are one of high technical merit such as critques of startrails, balancing of flash and natural light, high speed photography, or general other awesome stuff.

Lately I get the feeling that the beginners think that to get feedback they need to come into this forum.


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## Forkie (Mar 11, 2011)

I think it's difficult to define what a beginner actually is.  Someone could have never picked up a camera before, some could be familiar with a camera and take great shots in Auto mode, some know all about the gear and have no idea about composition.  So which bit is basic?

If the basics are just a knowledge of how shutter speed, aperture and ISO change how the picture turns out, is the just taking of a picture beyond the basics?  Is it beyond the basics when a photo follows the rule of thirds, or if someone shoots on a photo table with strobes?

Someone could also be a pro at fashion shoots, but put them in a field in a tent by a pond and they may be completely out of their comfort zone.


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## Formatted (Mar 11, 2011)

> but the point is the organisation structure has gone to ****.



So true...


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## Village Idiot (Mar 11, 2011)

Dubious Drewski said:


> This is a great forum for beginners (Yes, even this "Beyond the basics" section is for beginners, whether you agree or not)
> 
> I started here, and I loved it here. But if you're looking for an _actual_ professional photographer's forum that's active, and full of very experienced photographers, you go to fredmiranda.com.



So, "Which DSLR should I buy", should be in beyond the basics? But then again, DSLRs are more advanced than P&S cameras, so maybe? Oh, wait, did I just uncover the problem there? It you have a P&S forums, a DSLR forum, and a photographic techniques forum, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much confusion. 

Maybe it's not the members holding the forum back at all, but the forum holding the members back. If it was better organized and layed out in a more precise and thought out manner, then the caliber of the people using them would increase. I'm pretty sure if the Beginner's section was changed entirely and wasn't a big dumping ground for posts and pictures, then people may be more apt to use the rest of the forum.


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## Village Idiot (Mar 11, 2011)

Garbz said:


> All of this is really beside the point. You can get the same info all over the forum, but the point is the organisation structure has gone to ****.
> 
> On the one side we're talking home made monopods. Quite beyond the basics.
> On the other we're critiquing a snapshot of the beach which isn't even straight for someone who doesn't know how to straighten it.
> ...



And beyond the basics isn't even for photos, just like the beginner's section started out as. There' a "General" gallery that's listed specifically for critiques, but there should be a specific critique forum. Also, why is there a commercial/product photography forum? That's mixing still life type photos and commercial photography, which can be anything from portrait work for a magazine doing an ad on a new kim chi restaurant to shooting hotels for brochures. It's one narrow type of photography and one type of photography that can emcompass almost anything. It's like making a forum for pictures of Sparrows and Bugs.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 11, 2011)

They really need a train wreck forum.

Oh, wait.


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## gsgary (Mar 11, 2011)

RockstarPhotography said:


> You can be honest without being harsh.  Nobody likes, or will take advice from a prick.


 

I don't know quite a few have taken advice from me


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## Mary Robinson (Mar 12, 2011)

Personally, I prefer an honest assessment of my work, the "oh how pretty" thing drives me nuts, gives me no direction for improvement, doesn't tell what is wrong with the image in terms of composition or technique.  You can be as harsh as you want because after all, one can still choose to ignore your statements if one feels they are being made by an idiot. And I do agree with Overread, there is a difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism, but then I also feel this is part of the learning curve of photography, weeding out the bad and keeping the good.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2011)

it is true that some people don't know the difference between being harsh and being honest, what I said was that being honest can be harsh, which is true.  If a photo isn't good and I say it isn't good, it is my honest opinion and it is harsh. If I say a photo isn't good and offer the reasons why I think it isn't good that is still an honest opinion and it is still harsh.  If I say a photo isn't good, say why and then add what I would have tired to do to fix it, it's still an honest opinion, it's harsh , but it also offers some help. It just softens the statement that it isn't a good photo.


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 12, 2011)

gsgary is the ring leader. He brings a trash can with him when he criticizes people. He uses it for him to throw up, OR for the person to throw away their work .


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2011)

Mary Robinson said:


> Personally, I prefer an honest assessment of my work, the "oh how pretty" thing drives me nuts, gives me no direction for improvement, doesn't tell what is wrong with the image in terms of composition or technique. You can be as harsh as you want because after all, one can still choose to ignore your statements if one feels they are being made by an idiot. And I do agree with Overread, there is a difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism, but then I also feel this is part of the learning curve of photography, weeding out the bad and keeping the good.



Something that would help this is in your subject of your thread.  On another forum(openphotographyforums) there is a tab with differrent prefix opotions as to how you want your subject to be veiwed.  A few examples are, just for fun, critique desired, Light this:ask this for help on lighting a particular subject, Large format, film, NSFW, alternative procces, etc, etc, etc...

Then critiquers can pick and choose what they are looking and wanting to critique.  The nice thing about this is if you put critique desired as your prefix, you better be ready for it.

When I first posted over there I used the critique desired option and got great critique.  The problem was most of the information and help I was given was, and is, far beyond my skill set.  That is one problem with serious(harsh) critique is that many newcomers just don't understand the advice being given to them.  This is why I just post for fun and do my learning by reading the seasoned members critiques on other seasoned members work

@village idiot.  Yes this forum needs some better structure.


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2011)

RockstarPhotography said:


> You can be honest without being harsh. Nobody likes, or will take advice from a prick.


 
Just take the advice and ignore the harshness.  Advice is advice.  I personally see it as strong motivation


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## jake337 (Mar 12, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> it is true that some people don't know the difference between being harsh and being honest, what I said was that being honest can be harsh, which is true. If a photo isn't good and I say it isn't good, it is my honest opinion and it is harsh. If I say a photo isn't good and offer the reasons why I think it isn't good that is still an honest opinion and it is still harsh. If I say a photo isn't good, say why and then add what I would have tired to do to fix it, it's still an honest opinion, it's harsh , but it also offers some help. It just softens the statement that it isn't a good photo.


 

Just give it to em' like it is! If they can't read between the lines and benefit from you its their own loss.


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## jdphotos (Mar 12, 2011)

I am a beginner and i like to just read through the posts on all of the different sections of the forum. But this kind of posts makes me as a beginner not want to post if everyone is just going to think i am an idiot for asking a question. I have discovered the search button and have been using that to answer a lot of my questions now so i guess i don't have to post much because i can usually find the answers elsewhere. We all have to start somewhere and it's great to be able to ask people and get differing points of view. And as for posting about liking someone's photo without any actually critique i didn't realize that was such a problem... as a beginner i may not know how to fix that picture but i know what i like and thought it was alright just to say "hey i like photo #3 great job!" now i will think twice about it.  Just my 2 cents maybe i am way off.... i have had a good response from people since my first post so i have had no problems but i tend to post in the beginners area.... I like this forum and it has been really helpful to me... which is what this forum is about or so i thought.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 12, 2011)

jdphotos said:


> ... as a beginner i may not know how to fix that picture but i know what i like and thought it was alright just to say "hey i like photo #3 great job!" now i will think twice about it.


What is maybe more helpful to you, when commenting on pictures you like, is trying to say _why _you like them_. _It helps develop your own critical eye and ability to put your reaction into words.
It's not a bad thing to just say you like an image, but it should be treated the same as posting "This image is bad". The poster would want to know why.


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## MichiganFarts (Mar 12, 2011)

Honesty is not always harsh.

If you were actually honest, you'd be both harsh, and sympathetic...and then you wouldn't need a disclaimer for your harshness.


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## GeneralBenson (Mar 12, 2011)

I fully agreethat this forum, and especially this section and the "Professional" section have gone to hell in a hand basket. The problems are numerous. We need more moderation. Posts that get posted in the BTB forum that are beginner questions should be moved. The problem is, that Beyond The Basics is way to big of a category. The basics are pretty simple, and a tone of stuff falls outside of them without necessarily being "Advanced". There should at least be another section on top of the BTB section. The other problem is that everyone knows that the experienced people frequent the BTB section and the newbs are in the Beginners section. So people that want to get there question answered by people who know what they're talking about post in BTB even if the question isn't appropriate. 

The Pro Gallery on the other hand need lots of moderation, and I think should require account approval by mods. Pro means you make your living doing this, not that you occasionally get paid to do a portrait session.


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## RyanLilly (Mar 12, 2011)

I would just like to mention, when people here complain about the lack of moderation, I think that BigMike is one of the exceptions to the rule, and does a fantastic job of not only moderating, but being extremely helpful answering questions, and giving genuine advice to others. 

Mike, you're the best!


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 12, 2011)

Why should someone be sympathetic when to comes to a poor image? Can I say I feel alot of sympathy for your lack of photographic skills? That really wouldn't be honest. Would I have sympathy if someone screws up a shoot because they don't have the experience, not likely.  If someone runs into a string of bad luck while on assignment or they have camera problems, I would feel sympathy for that. But feel sympathy for a poor image? nope.


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## kundalini (Mar 12, 2011)

MichiganFarts said:


> Honesty is not always harsh.


True, however your followup....


MichiganFarts said:


> If you were actually honest, you'd be both harsh, and sympathetic...and then you wouldn't need a disclaimer for your harshness.


....has holes large enough to drive a Mack truck through.  Honesty has no prerequisites or supplementals.  It just is.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 12, 2011)

Sympathy replaces honesty. Sympathy can even keep one from commenting altogether.

It's the namby pamby everyone is a winner world.


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## GeneralBenson (Mar 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Sympathy replaces honesty. Sympathy can even keep one from commenting altogether.
> 
> It's the namby pamby everyone is a winner world.


 
I am harshly critical of your post. Sympathy is for newbz.


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## bentcountershaft (Mar 12, 2011)

Maybe instead of selecting "My photos are OK to edit" the choices should be "I prefer to be coddled" or "Give it to me straight."


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## Calypso b (Mar 13, 2011)

I have read many, many posts by professional photographers on this forum being rude and condescending to others who are trying to learn. They claim to be honest. As a teacher myself, I can tell you that teaching people is special skill that does not require one to belittle the student, this is in turn the opposite of how one teaches. In fact I often wonder why photographers who claim to be so almighty spend so much time on here posting cruel, demeaning comments; shouldn't you be busy photographing because you are in such high demand? Or is that it makes you feel better about yourself to "teach" others and stand above them waving your finger in their faces saying they are doing things all wrong.

I will admit Image Maker that I am not a professional photographer, as I do not make over half of my income from photography but I am not afraid to say that I DO in fact charge for my photography because there are people who appreciate what I do and will pay for it. For the record, you may know much, much more about photography than me but I believe that there are many clients who would choose me as their photographer over you simply because I am a nice person with social skills. It is pretty evident that you do not. I could give you a few pointers on how to communicate with others if you like. It might help your business


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 13, 2011)

Calypso,  It does appear that you have little time for my social skills or believe that I am a nice person. You are a teacher, so what, I know lots of teachers that have no social skills and really aren't very nice people.   You have based your opinion of me on my honesty, you have no idea who I am, what I have done, and I seriously doubt that you are working at the same photographic level that I currently am working at, or have been working at for most of my life.  I assisited teaching 3rd year photojournalism students at the university level, I have lectured at a Leica seminar, I have been photo co-ordinator at five World Championship events, been personal photographer to a Prime Minister of Canada, and all this without any social skills.  Being a professional photographer does not mean making half your income from photography, it means making all your money from photography, and there are lots of other factors involved in being a professional that go beyond just charging for photographs. Just wondering what area of photography are you currently following, weddings, baby pictures, family portraits?

I'm pretty sure that I don't need any pointers on how to be nice, or a need to improve my social skills. When to comes to photography, why should I soft sell someones images? If they aren't good I'll ay it, i'll say why. I can also read though the BS that people post on these forums, I've been in this business long enough to know. I don't say anything about myself that isn't fact, it's not being anything more than being honest. Take it or leave, everyone knows exactly where I stand.  My professional and personal social skills are just fine. Thanks for the kind offer though.


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## PhotoWrangler (Mar 13, 2011)




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## Stevenl (Mar 13, 2011)

As a former paratrooper, I have no problem with a critical review of any image I post. 'Hard but fair' was thrown around a bunch, the only difference between that and this is as a paratrooper I might die with a silly mistake. Worse thing here is you guys leave a snarky remark and do not leave me any details on how to better a  shot. 
An example is the shot I took last night at a timed exposure, the second one I've done in my life. I leave my info that it was f/8 for 13 seconds The first response I get is (paraphrased) "wow! The duck sat still for 13 seconds!" After responding back they were bedding down for the night and looking through some other threads it dawned on me he was being sarcastic. After a PM he tells me 13 seconds exceeds what is needed to achieve the silky effect of the water falling. 

But he also mistakenly assumes my shot is taken while the sun is out. I'm pretty sure sure that if the sun was out with details given my picture would have been a near white out. 

As serious as I am about it you can laugh at my mistakes just as long as you are teaching me (i.e. pointing out my mistake) while you are doing so, hell, I may even laugh with you.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 13, 2011)

Best attitude I've read on here


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## GeneralBenson (Mar 13, 2011)

bentcountershaft said:


> Maybe instead of selecting "My photos are OK to edit" the choices should be "I prefer to be coddled" or "Give it to me straight."


 
Bahahahaha! :lmao:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 13, 2011)

Stevenl said:


> As a former paratrooper, I have no problem with a critical review of any image I post. 'Hard but fair' was thrown around a bunch, the only difference between that and this is as a paratrooper I might die with a silly mistake. Worse thing here is you guys leave a snarky remark and do not leave me any details on how to better a shot.
> An example is the shot I took last night at a timed exposure, the second one I've done in my life. I leave my info that it was f/8 for 13 seconds The first response I get is (paraphrased) "wow! The duck sat still for 13 seconds!" After responding back they were bedding down for the night and looking through some other threads it dawned on me he was being sarcastic. After a PM he tells me 13 seconds exceeds what is needed to achieve the silky effect of the water falling.
> 
> But he also mistakenly assumes my shot is taken while the sun is out.* I'm pretty sure sure that if the sun was out with details given my picture would have been a near white out. *
> ...


 
Relating to that post...



Stevenl said:


> F/8 for 13 seconds.


 
Maybe if you give a little more information in your posts, you might get a better response.
Don't make the reader guess at all the information you have and we don't.
The part I bolded is snarky to me. After all, you could have used ND filters.
We are not mind readers. You even complained that Schwetty mistakenly ASSUMED something.
What do you want CC on?
This is the biggest failure on the part of new posters, is not giving enough information of the shot, what your intentions were, and what you want help on.

Again and again, we get "here's my photo, what can I do to get better?"
:roll:


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## Robin Usagani (Mar 13, 2011)

No.. I didnt assume annything.  All I saw was 13 second shutter.  I am not sure I can shoot an animal with 13 second shutter without motion blur.  It was pure joke.  That was ONE STILL DUCK!


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## Stevenl (Mar 13, 2011)

First off, a public apology to you Schwettylens for thinking you were being sarcastic and assuming you would know my shot was done at night with no filters. 

In regards to my point on the thread Snakeguy101 and o hey tyler did'nt seem to have much difficulty giving me feedback, bitter jeweler. But I get your point, and from now on I will do better in regards to the information I give.

I will be honest, I did'nt read it if there is a sticky saying to give all the details of the shots we put on here. I never see anything given so I though I was doing good with what I put out there. 

Did I get defensive? Yes, it's human nature, not unlike you did when I critiqued the way some of you give critiques. I'm a newby but I have opinions. Anyway, I have learned from it, I apologized and I'm moving on to the next thread.


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## MichiganFarts (Mar 15, 2011)

kundalini said:


> MichiganFarts said:
> 
> 
> > Honesty is not always harsh.
> ...



I laugh at how you're actually agreeing with me...yet acting like you're correcting me.  I never said honesty had prerequisites bud.  My point was simple...you wouldn't have harshness as the only thing coming from you if you were honest.  My post was about how you would be responding to people if you were actually an honest person.  Simple...not anything to be read into, not a description of honesty.  Not an end all be all statement as to everything regarding honesty.

You better park your mac truck, because the opening isn't that big, and your perception is way off.


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## MichiganFarts (Mar 15, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Sympathy replaces honesty. Sympathy can even keep one from commenting altogether.
> 
> It's the namby pamby everyone is a winner world.


 
"Sympathy replaces honesty" is a dishonest phrase in itself.  It can, but whether it does or not is purely case by case.


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## neneaniket (Mar 15, 2011)

Fully Agree, Beyond the basics stage is where the amateur needs guidance from a pro with his harsh yet guiding words !


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Mar 16, 2011)

I think more than anything, we need an "arm chair philosopher" forum. We can use it to house threads like these as well as the following:

"When am I a pro"

"When am I a photographer"

"Are UV filters useless"

"When am I ready to shoot a wedding"



"Is banging the model ethical"


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## Garbz (Mar 16, 2011)

GooniesNeverSayDie11 said:


> "Is banging the model ethical"


 
This is a no brainer. Models are people too. Banging people is ethical. Therefor by the commutative rule banging models is ethical. Q.E.D.

Maybe we need a logic and maths forum too


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## Bram (Mar 21, 2011)

Yayyy finally a pro of 35 years with 130 posts is going to give me advice on how to AF the nifty fifty on my D40 :greenpbl:


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## AmazingGrace0385 (Mar 21, 2011)

The fact is we all start somewhere. Right now I'm in the "beginner" forum, mostly b/c I'm new to TPF... I have been shooting manual and have a pretty good, but general, understanding of SS, f/, and ISO, and still have a lot to learn regarding lighting and composition. I agree there's more to getting past the "beginner" stage than just learning manual on a camera. It's a big step, but not the final one. When I first saw "Beyond the Basics" I originally thought of being beyond learning manual, but have realized there's more to it than that. 

Also, many of us can take honest critique, but like a PP stated, there's a difference between being straight out harsh and giving constructive criticism.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

The 'my shoelace has come undone, what should I do?" questions become very tedious.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

Make a FAQ sticky. Then they can go FAQ themselves.


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## AmazingGrace0385 (Mar 21, 2011)

I like the FAQ idea!


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## Overread (Mar 21, 2011)

Remembering of course that when a thread is made sticky it gains invisibility as well. So you won't stop the threads being made - but you can save yourself typing by directing them to the sticky via a link of course.


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## kundalini (Mar 21, 2011)

MichiganFarts said:


> kundalini said:
> 
> 
> > MichiganFarts said:
> ...


 
   Now you're just blowing hot air.

Oh wait, ............................


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## SlickSalmon (Mar 21, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> it is true that some people don't know the difference between being harsh and being honest, what I said was that being honest can be harsh, which is true.  If a photo isn't good and I say it isn't good, it is my honest opinion and it is harsh. If I say a photo isn't good and offer the reasons why I think it isn't good that is still an honest opinion and it is still harsh.  If I say a photo isn't good, say why and then add what I would have tired to do to fix it, it's still an honest opinion, it's harsh , but it also offers some help. It just softens the statement that it isn't a good photo.


 
There's a difference between honesty and candor.  Honesty involves taking responsibility; candor involves plainly speaking your mind.  Honesty is a virtue; candor is not.  It has become fashionable these days to speak candidly and justifying it by saying, "hey, I was just being honest".  Sports figures in particular use this tactic.  But, there is nothing inherently honorable in candor.  Generally, it's just rude.

A good critique uses the PIN principle -- say something Positive, something Interesting and something Negative.  And the Negative comment should be offered in a way that is respectful of and helpful to the recipient.


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## pgriz (Mar 21, 2011)

Interesting distinction.  It's a bit like saying honesty is giving you the truth you can handle, while candor is giving you the truth whether or not you can handle it.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

Alternative structure:

New to photography/'just bought a camera' type section: 
Basically a Blog/FAQ of A-Z primers with comment & response fields beneath.
Bone questions explained in the published texts are ignored. Clarifications are addressed.

Landscape
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Portrait
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Documentary/Event
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Nature
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Close-up/Macro
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Commercial Photography
(subsections: Apprentice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Marketing, Jobs, Gallery, Buy & Sell),

Image Editing
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Marketing, Jobs),

Printing, Matting & Framing
(subsections: Novice, Intermediate, Advanced (minimum 500 post count); Equipment, Marketing, Jobs, Buy & Sell),

Having a 'general' category invites aimless crap.
50 post count is necessary to post in any Equipment cat. 50 post count is required to post in Buy & Sell, Marketing, Jobs. Seperate buy & sell subsections solve the 'which camera/lens should I buy? - no further info' requests.


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## pgriz (Mar 21, 2011)

Logical structure.  You can add, under "commercial photography" the categories:  "Thinking about it", then "wannabee", prior to Apprentice.   I don't see the need to put the "Buy & Sell" into each section - one catch-all should suffice IMHO.  Do you propose to limit access to "advanced" to those that have accumulated minimum 500 posts in "Novice" and "intermediate" categories for each section, or total for all sections?  Then again, if people are here mainly to socialize and rubberneck, then having all these sections may actually work against that objective.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

Just some ideas I thought about while I was drinking a coffee  For the purposes of the discussion.



pgriz said:


> Logical structure.  You can add, under "commercial photography" the categories:  "Thinking about it", then "wannabee", prior to Apprentice.   I don't see the need to put the "Buy & Sell" into each section - one catch-all should suffice IMHO.  Do you propose to limit access to "advanced" to those that have accumulated minimum 500 posts in "Novice" and "intermediate" categories for each section, or total for all sections?  Then again, if people are here mainly to socialize and rubberneck, then having all these sections may actually work against that objective.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

pgriz said:


> I don't see the need to put the "Buy & Sell" into each section - one catch-all should suffice IMHO.  Do you propose to limit access to "advanced" to those that have accumulated minimum 500 posts in "Novice" and "intermediate" categories for each section, or total for all sections?  Then again, if people are here mainly to socialize and rubberneck, then having all these sections may actually work against that objective.



I thought individual buy & sells could contain those 'which camera should i get' threads as well as ads. Someone posts a 'which camera/lens should i get' thread. Someone else has to then ask what kind of photography the OP wants to do etc. Therefore if someone posts such a request e.g in portrait, they're goiing to get better suggestions than as things are now, where people weigh in with whatever they happened to own and use regardless.

500 advanced yes. If someone advanced joins, then for a while they have to help out the true intermediates with advice to gain enough posts to go up.

I know of one photoforum where you cannot even join as a full member until you've successfully submitted three images that have gained enough merit points to do so. I know TPF isn't like that but it's a good policy as that forum (amateurs as well as professional) maintains a high standard.

Re: C&C...maybe a good system is that gallery pictures do not receive written C&C. Only a star rating, or no rating at all. C&C should be a two way process. Posting a picture of a fence post and saying 'please c&c' is BS. Whatever meaningful dilemma someone has about composition can be phrased as a discussion topic. The photog is either skilled enough to make a great photo of a fence post or they're such a novice that the C&C just becomes an excercise in diplomatically informing them it's rubbish.


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## SlickSalmon (Mar 21, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Interesting distinction.  It's a bit like saying honesty is giving you the truth you can handle, while candor is giving you the truth whether or not you can handle it.


 
Not at all.  Honesty has nothing to do with giving anyone anything.  It's about owning up to your own actions.  Let's put it this way -- Honesty is admitting you broke your wife's favorite family heirloom; candor is telling your wife she's fat.  Which one is honorable; which one is just rude?


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## pgriz (Mar 21, 2011)

SlickSalmon said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting distinction. It's a bit like saying honesty is giving you the truth you can handle, while candor is giving you the truth whether or not you can handle it.
> ...


 
Well, that view of "honesty" is one of several.  In the context of the discussion earlier, an "honest opinion" is one where the giver of the opinion gave what you would call a candid opinion.  There's enough ambiguity in the use of the English language that several meanings can be associated with the word or phrase, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  I am not disagreeing with your use of "Honest" in terms of admitting responsibility, but the colloquial use of "honest" also covers what you call candor.  Therefore I was intrigued by your distinction between the two.


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## pgriz (Mar 21, 2011)

@ PASM - the difficulty with any system which is self-classifying (ie, into beginner, intermermediate, advanced), is that people have a distorted view of when they qualify to move from one class into another.  As well, in a field as varied as photography, one can be very good (ie, advanced) in one area, but be a beginner in another.  So how will any classification system work if there are not objective criteria by which one could determine at which level one should be classed?  And is such objective criteria can exist, who will set these up?  In a different field, due to the occasional life and death consequences, the sea kayaking community has organized a number of associations which are responsible for grading kayakers.  The one with the most developed program is the BCU (British Canoe Union), which has 1-star to 5-star levels of accomplishment, and in the past few years, has recognized multiple tracks and parallel training/coaching tracks.  There the criteria are published, the training courses organised to meet the criteria, and the tests are given by independent assessors who verify that you can carry out all the criteria for that level.  If, on the other hand, the classification system is based on informal self-assesment, then we will have continuing mixing of skill levels that some may find, ah, irritating.  I don't claim to know the answer.  However, it would be interesting to write a self-assessment guide to see what the advanced photographers would consider to be required at each level.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

I agree with the points you make.


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## PASM (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm struggling a bit to express some ideas..I think the main thing is people want a resource/environment, tailored to their needs and interests. A lot of people want some answers to what are quite basic questions and procedures in photography. Then there's the 'special interest groups' - more advanced lighting techniques, darkroom processes discussion, technical aspects of digital technologies and workflow, old cameras. The forum structure accomodates these quite well I guess.


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## SlickSalmon (Mar 22, 2011)

pgriz said:


> SlickSalmon said:
> 
> 
> > pgriz said:
> ...


 
Thank you for your thoughtful response.  Yes, I agree that there are many definitions for "honesty".  In fact, I just looked it up, and at least one on-line dictionary considers its use synonymous with "candor".  An older, 60 year-old dictionary defines it as "refraining from lying, cheating, and stealing".  I'm left to conclude that the merging of "honesty" and "candor" is a newer definition.  Personally, I find this troubling.  I'm seeing an increasing level of incivility in society, and that incivility is being reflected in many of the C&C comments I see on this site.  I find nothing useful in telling someone "your photo sucks", or "I dunno, man, I just don't get it", or "your photo just looks like more over-processed HDR garbage".  I've read all of these comments recently.  To justify these kind of comments as virtuous "honesty" is crudely off target.  Hence, I don't agree with the OP's comment that "being honest is harsh".


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 22, 2011)

SlickSalmon said:


> I find nothing useful in telling someone "your photo sucks", or "I dunno, man, I just don't get it", or "your photo just looks like more over-processed HDR garbage". I've read all of these comments recently. To justify these kind of comments as virtuous "honesty" is crudely off target. Hence, I don't agree with the OP's comment that "being honest is harsh".


 
Can you post links to the threads that have "your photo sucks" as replies? From what I have seen, this is much less common than many claim it to be, and is certainly not a majority of the comments left.

You take the good, you take the bad,
You take them both, and there you have...


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## Christie Photo (Mar 22, 2011)

imagemaker46 said:


> I thought this was Beyond the Basics?



Wow.  I just read through this entire thread.  

All this coming out of...  in which forum users choose to post?

Apologizing ahead of time does not give license to brutalize.  Further, honesty does not equal being offensive.  And certainly, there's nothing admirable about stating that you will have no regrets or offer any apology when you learn you have offended some one.

I too have worked as a professional photographer for over 35 years, but I have no illusions that it justifies being inconsiderate of people's feelings...  definitely not under the guise of being helpful or honest.

-Pete


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## Bitter Jeweler (Mar 22, 2011)

Does anyone have a picture of a mountain and a molehill?


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## mikehaugen (Mar 22, 2011)




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## mikehaugen (Mar 22, 2011)

Sorry, after I posted that I remembered the rule about posting only pictures you have taken, but it seemed awfully appropriate.


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## PASM (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm saving up for tilt/shift. I'll let you know.



Bitter Jeweler said:


> Does anyone have a picture of a mountain and a molehill?


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## Derrel (Mar 22, 2011)

mikehaugen said:


> Sorry, after I posted that I remembered the rule about posting only pictures you have taken, but it seemed awfully appropriate.


 

I dunno Mike...those look more like gopher mounds than molehills...(Derrel....former gopher bounty hunter....seriously...)


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## PASM (Mar 22, 2011)

Silbury Hill? (Largest manmade molehill in Europe..other than ..)


mikehaugen said:


>


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## mikehaugen (Mar 22, 2011)

I just googled "mountain and molehill photos" didn't have your expertise to determine the credibility of the description.  Alright, I guess I gotta go find some darn molehills and post my own picture...  wait I don't even know what a mole hill looks like, and I live in Illinois so a mountain is going to be really difficult.


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## PASM (Mar 22, 2011)

Sure looks like Silbury. Not far from Stonehenge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbury_Hill



mikehaugen said:


> I just googled "mountain and molehill photos" didn't have your expertise to determine the credibility of the description.  Alright, I guess I gotta go find some darn molehills and post my own picture...  wait I don't even know what a mole hill looks like, and I live in Illinois so a mountain is going to be really difficult.


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## Bram (Mar 23, 2011)

Wasn't this Beyond the basics? :meh:


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## wikkhilson (Apr 26, 2011)

Feeling nice to read this stuff.


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## PhotoWrangler (Apr 26, 2011)

Click Here to unsubscribe from this thread.


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## vtf (Apr 26, 2011)

SlickSalmon said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > SlickSalmon said:
> ...


 
Had to be civil when we met face to face, or called on the phone. Who does that anymore?


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