# Thinking retro



## mysteryscribe

It is time for me to get off the other boards and hide out again.  As usual when I am not involved in writing something fanciful, I pretend that I know what the heck I'm talking about.  

While I was out there touring the boards, I found some great looking photographs, and some very nice snapshots.  And some snapshots that thought they were great looking photographs.  I was surprised by the lack of crap until I realized that I'm the only one posting just about every image they shoot.  I would expect my crap ratio to be higher, but then there is no excuse for posting crap.  So I can only say, "No Excuse Sir."  Er Er or Ma'am.

I will try to do better, but I probably won't, since like everyone else I shoot a high percentage of crap.

One thing that did strike me out there in the digital world was how many pictures, no matter the subject, have the same feel.  I know I'm gonna be in trouble again, but it is an almost plastic look.  A cookie cutter feel, I guess.  Possibly when it is so easy to over work a picture, it is easy to conform to what everyone else is doing.

Careful don't blow out those highlights.  What the heck is that all about.  A picture is more than the sum of it's parts.  It reminds me of the opening of the 6million dollar man.  We can rebuild him, we can make him better than he was.  We can do this because we can.  Just because we can does that mean we should.  We can most likely clone humans to, should we.  Flash on Gregory Peck and the boys from brazil.

I think that maybe we have gone a little nuts here, but then this is all new.  Right now the techies have the keys to the asylum.  I probably won't see it, but ten years from now it might just be a little easier to give a real grade to the digital images.  For now let's hope the world doesn't go overboard and throw the baby out with the stop bath.


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## Arch

hmmm..... blown highlights can be used constructivly.... i.e. high key..... if it is intended there is no creative restrictions. However if there are blown highlights behind the subject matter for example, and the eye is drawn to them instead of the intended focal point then i do see them as a problem.

I understand what your saying about photos having a similar 'finish' to them.... i sometimes go back to my 'creative imagery' which is a kind of mixture between photog and graphic arts/illustration and the results certainly wouldn't last 5 mins in a crit gallery..... they just break too many photography 'rules'..... but i also feel that even tho digital processing can produce similar looking results, it can also be used as an artistic expression in its own right...... the trouble is, is the technophobia about computers and the will to 'want' to learn how to use a computer programme to its full capability........ similar in my opinion to people who just love vinyl records and refuse to swap thier collection for CD's.... theres nothing wrong with that, if you prefer the sound of a record..... and if you have a perfectly good record player, why spend hundreds of $ on a state of the art CD system.
But then you have to stand back and except that while your happy to kick back and listen to the irreplaceable quality of your vinyl......... the guy next door can watch a re-mastered dvd of your fav band in surround sound.


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## mysteryscribe

Not to mention all that great porn on dvd....

Let me give you guys this right up front.  In a purely business since, I would throw all my other cameras in the trash. 

Since you gave me they all tend to look alike, I will give you that when I see how a digital shot shows up on a monitor, I am humbled.  If i get them both on paper, I like the film shot better.  It has less of a manufactured look.

Blowout if it was there when you saw it, should be there when it is printed. Sorry but I subscribe to the (computer term) what you see is what you get.  It's a retro kinda thing.​


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## mysteryscribe

I really like getting into the office (here) early.  I get to post such neat things.  Best of all it is hours before anyone comes along to point out how stupid they are.


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## mysteryscribe

Terri lock the door and do not let me leave again please... A voluntary commitment is for my own good.


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## mysteryscribe

Okay this is officially the whiners thread now.  I had a flyer advertising a civil war encampment starting today at 9am.  I figured these guys are never on time so I spent the morning loading my film holders, half paper and have film.  I check the cameras, two of them, printrd up some website addresses to give to the people who I  made pics of.  

I decided to head on down to the encampment area after noon.  When I got there, it was an empty field with one little table with a graveside awning over it.  Under the awning of death, sat a little of lady civil war vintage, not her clothes, her..

"Where is everybody?"

"Oh they are on the way.  Today is just a set up day.  The encampment doesnt open till in the morning.

So of course I did the worlds most stupid thing.  I took out the paper and before I thought I said, "That can't be right the flyer says it starts today."  

She looked at me like I was a complete idiot, then she raised her eye to the empty field.  She gave me a look as if to say, "You have a piece of paper and I have the empty field, who you gonna believe?"

Yes I would like a little cheeze with my whine.


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## Oldfireguy

I think crap in the eye of the beholder.  This forum is made up of people with all sorts of skills from the person just starting to the one who has been shooting for years.  When you lump photographs into the categories of photographs, snapshots, and crap then I would expect that everything you post is going to be your best work.  Is it?  Not so by your own admission.  If I look at your work and say it is crap, then is it?  What makes you an expert to judge what is crap and what isnt, or me?  How do you define crap?  

Everyone here is taking photographs be it on film or digital.  If you or I think it is crap it does not matter.  Its still a photograph taken by someone who liked it enough to post it.  I have no right to judge the merits of someone else's photographs unless Im damn good and even at that, you still might think my work is crap.  So again I say, crap is in the eye of the beholder.

Enough crap on crap.


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## mysteryscribe

Im going to assume this is a joke, otherwise I will begin to believe you think everyone has to have YOUR opinion and attitudes toward photography.  That would be akin to mind control and I know you cant believe that.  

In this world there are saints and sinners and im a sinner.  If I offend the saints, im sorry as can be, but I still have the right to be a sinner.  So I would suggest if you are serious, don't read what I post.  Otherwise talk to the site operators and have them ask me to leave. because that is the only way i am going stop calling thing by their proper names.  Im sorry,now you said how you feel and now I said how i feel.  Thats about all I can do.


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## mysteryscribe

ooops terri you didn't lock me in quick enough lol....


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## Oldfireguy

_Okay this is officially the whiners thread now.

_So I can't whine?  That's not fair!


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## mysteryscribe

Rofl okay you win

you are right ... If i can whine then everybody should be able to
 and honestly i didnt say any particular thing was crap

But since nobody ever comes here and it wont be seen, let me tell you what I think is... What I was refering too.  You might remember I said I was surprised by how much good photography there is out there... And in one thread if you read them all i said photography is at its best as a snapshot media,., So I didn't put down snapshots... However the quality of cell phone pictures is garbage (note the different choice of words)  ... It has a place sure, to send your mom a picture of the new computer on her cell phone, but it isnt serious photography  Maybe someday but now the quality is awful I find it hard to believe anyone would disagree with that.  

As for digital photography I have said about ten times, what it is good at: it is better a than anything else... What it is bad about it is giving new photographers the idea that shooting 200 cheap pictures is better that stopping to think about what you are doing.

There was a kid who posted a note saying there as a new chip that let you shoot non stop and how great it would be for him as a student.  What BS...

I digitalize my film and i have a digital darkroom ie ten editors.  But that doesnt mean I think everybody who buys a 2k nikon is an artist... Ask max about the man who critisized his film camera, then admitted he didnt know what an fstop was,

So come on in and whine you are welcome aboard.  Hell we are all mistreated somehow... and if i mistreated something you worked hard on I apologize, but there is gargage out there and we are saying attaboy.  If i see trash I dont comment at all on THAT specific picture.  I can lump them all together and say there is trash on this site.  

As for my work, I'll make anybody on this site a deal.  You re-edit anything I put up, any place, any time, but let me do it back at you.  I bring 30 year pulling triggers to every picture I take, but they arent all, or any of them pulitzer pics.

What makes me qualified to call something garbage, just my own opinion which is no better or worse than yours.  If you are one of those super nice guys who never saw a picture or a sinner you didn't like, you have my absolute and real respect.  If you are one of those guys who looks at a picture for ten minutes to find something good to say about it, then no I don't respect that much.  You see we learn by having someone stand up and say "Hey the emperor is naked."

I can remember a picture I commented on when I first came here.  It was an obvious crop mistake.  I said i would have done this. And suddenly everybody came over to defend their friend.  That's fine, but I guarentee you he is still making pictures that are less than they could be simply  because he doesnt know to look for the natural frame that is there most of the time.  Some of the guys here went to art school, some of them have years of photo experience and some are new.  The guys who have been there should help the guys who are new, but "atta boy jeff" Is nice and I'm doing it on a one to one basis now, but that isn't teaching anything to anyone. 

Now I'm whining lol

I'll get the cheeze and crackers and you ice up the white whine.  NO no make it red it is much better for the heart.


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## Oldfireguy

I don't disagree with you and I enjoy your work.  Someday (who knows how long) I am going to build a pinhole camera and I still want to see some of your reenacting photos.


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## mysteryscribe

If i can bring myself to go back to the encampment tomorrow, and face the old lady who thinks i am possibly the worlds dumbest man, Im going to shoot some.  Paper negs and film as well.  I have two cameras set up and a box of cut film holders.  I just have to be willing to chew a healthy amount of crow.  But then with a nice chianti anything is possible.


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## JamesD

fredcwdoc said:
			
		

> Someday (who knows how long) I am going to build a pinhole camera....




YESSS!  Excuse me while I do the _cha-CHING_ motion.

Pinhole is awsome; I seem to be making it one of my primary shooting modes, and I'm glad to hear that someone else will be joining us!  I just need to finish up my calibrations and techniques so that I can work on getting some decent shots.

And dag-nabbit, I forgot to order sheet film when I ordered stuff from B&H earlier....


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## mysteryscribe

You should try the arista films from freestyle.  The arista edu is what I shoot it is cheap and has great contrast.  With the size negs we are talking here the grain is not much of an issue.  I haven't found grain to be a problem anyway.


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## JamesD

I've been doing my 4X5 pinholes in a plain white matt, unframed, with both the negative and the contact positive side by side or over and under, depending on the orientation of the image.  Everything is contact, though, so I suppose that it won't matter too much how much grain there is.

I guess with the film, though, I'm gonna have to make a contact positive, then make a contact negative from that.  Should be interesting.  Oh, and I need to add 4X5 sleeves to my shopping list...

I should probably start with a cheap film, you think?  Something that I can afford to experiment with and possibly waste.  Have you ever made a positive on film?  I'll have to ask in the Darkroom forum, too.  It'd make it a lot easier to make copies of the presentation, getting a positive I can contact print the same as the negative to get both on paper.

I'll check out both the Arista films and Freestyle.


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## mysteryscribe

ah the not so famous gurkin tintype lol... Okay they used to make a film that shot positive like a slide. I'm not sure if they still do or not. I used to shoot it in a 2x3 cut negative holder, then put it in a frame with a piece of roof flashing as a backing.

Im not sure what you are doing so I cant really comment.  The arista is about 9 bucks for 20 4x5 sheets..not cheap... but much less than some of the others.


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## JamesD

I'm just keeping the consistency of my display.  All my pinhole photos are positive and negative side by side, which is easy, since I just make a contact print to get a positive, then mount both sheets and hang them.

With film, though, I don't want to stick the negative up on the wall, because they're a little more fragile than a paper negative.  So, I'll have to make a duplicate negative on paper.

I suppose I can just contact print the paper positive... that way, I can more easily control the contrast as well.

I'm thinking I'm gonna go with the Forte 200 sheet film.  In a box of 25, it's a little less than 50 cents a sheet.

Okay, I'm gonna unhijak your thread now LOL


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## Oldfireguy

OK you pinhole masters. I have a 4x5 Crown Graphic I'm not using much these days. It has sheet film holders, roll film holders, and polaroid backs. What do I need to do to make a pinhole camera with some of these parts. Not going to take the camera apart because it's in to nice of condition. Just want to use the different film holders. 

You can email me direct at fredcwdoc@comcat.net.


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## mysteryscribe

You can shoot on any film holder or with paper in the film holder dont need to do anything but make a pin hole lens.  I'm not that familier with how the graffic lens board is but if you can make a masonite board just cut a hole and make your pin hole opening and glue it on.  I drill my pinhole in roof flashing then glue them to masonite for a lens board.  Most guys punch the hole with a needle into a heavy foil.  James would know more about that.

I load my paper negs into any cut film holder.   You can also shoot them on film in any film holder you have around.


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## mysteryscribe

So, I went to the reinactment and ate humble pie.  I also got fussed at again.  This time for being in the wrong place.  Photographers are always in the wrong place.  It's what we do, and since I was carrying twenty pounds of retro camera gear the lady(?) had to know I was one.  None the less I moved six feet to the side and she was happy.

I shot eighteen exposures and I will be developing them soon.  Probably one a day... Maddening I know.  I had a couple of interesting things happen I might write about them one day.

James did you get the download address its on your other thread call me crazy.


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## JamesD

Yep, sure did.  Thank ya!  But... you'd already sent me that one before LOL.  However, I appreciate it, as I couldn't remember what the file was called... I've got close to two thousand documents in my "~/downloads/documents/" folder on all different subjects.... I really should sort them out into different directories, but it's a massive undertaking.


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## mysteryscribe

One of my fans (maybe the only one)  thought I needed a real camera so today I got a graflex of some type in the mail.  I didn't buy it, trust me.  The thing looks great now if one of you will tell me how to drop the front I will be ever so greateful.

I don't know what the model it but it is 4x5...  if you look at the front it has a flat black board that will make the bed when it is lowered, If i ever  figure out the combination to getting it released.   So is there a release latch somewhere I cant find or is the Harry houdini's camera.


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## JamesD

fredcwdoc said:
			
		

> OK you pinhole masters. I have a 4x5 Crown Graphic I'm not using much these days. It has sheet film holders, roll film holders, and polaroid backs. What do I need to do to make a pinhole camera with some of these parts. Not going to take the camera apart because it's in to nice of condition. Just want to use the different film holders.



Basically, you replace the lens with a pinhole.  Lenox Laser makes laser-drilled pinholes which are ready to mount in a large-format camera, but they're a bit pricy.  You can also make the pinhole and tape it to the lensboard, or affix it by whatever creative means you like.  The camera itself need not undergo any modifications other than removing the lens.

The neat thing about pinholes is that there's no focusing; but if your camera racks the lensboard back and forth, toward and away from the film, in order to accomplish focusing, then you've got a variable-aperture pinhole zoom already made.  The closer the pinhole is to the film, the wider the angle of view (and/or smaller the image).  Back when I was in elementry school, I used to make pinhole telescopes with paper-towel tubes, aluminum foil, and waxed paper using this principle.

If you want more details on how to manufacture your own pinhole, and/or how to measure it, let me know.  I've got more than enough to bore you with


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## mysteryscribe

so one of you tell me how to open this graflex camera i have just got.


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## JamesD

To borrow a term from the computer system administration field: RTFM! :mrgreen: 

Seriously, though, I have no idea.  It took me a week to figure out how to open my Mamiya 645, and two months to figure out how to take the lens off, and I had it in my hands.  But then, I disassembled the Argoflex E shutter in about half an hour, then cleaned and reassembled it in another hour and a half.  What can I say; sometimes I'm dumb.


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## mysteryscribe

Well working on cameras for me is a lot easier when they aren't so nice.  This one is a pure beauty well outside.  It didn't come with a manual.  I bet thats why the 'fan' gave it to me... Just to see if it drove me nuts.


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## mysteryscribe

NEVER MIND I GOT IT


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> To borrow a term from the computer system administration field: RTFM! :mrgreen:
> 
> Seriously, though, I have no idea. *It took me a week to figure out how to open my Mamiya 645, and two months to figure out how to take the lens off, and I had it in my hands.* But then, I disassembled the Argoflex E shutter in about half an hour, then cleaned and reassembled it in another hour and a half. What can I say; sometimes I'm dumb.


Which model Mamiya 645, James? I just picked up a super-pristine 1000-S. I think I fell for it immediately because everything it said to do in the accompanying manual worked exactly as stated. :mrgreen: Easiest flippin' thing I've ever touched, bar none!


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## JamesD

Mine is a 1000S, as well.  What does the red button on the right side top do?


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## mysteryscribe

If I remember correctly it is the prism lock release. Hold it in and see if the prism wont come off .. I forget if it slide back or lifts off but it will do what its supposed to if you press the button in. Be Gentle it might be her first time..

For all those who ever want to mess with Kodak cameras.  Kodak had a love affair with hidden releases.  They would build the release almost flush with the camera body then cover the whole camera with one piece of leatherett hiding the release mechanism.  Thats what they did with the graflex.


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Mine is a 1000S, as well. What does the red button on the right side top do?


Has nothing to do with the prism. It's the battery check button. When you depress it, a green light should go off on the other side, over your shutter speed dial. It also serves to release mirror lock-up. 

And now......James!!!! You have Mamiya 645 1000S too? :cheer: That makes us soul mates, you know. :mrgreen: 

I love mine. :heart:

Do you have a prism viewfinder too? The release button is on the back to the right of the eyepiece, depress and turn, then lift up. Should be smooth as silk.


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## mysteryscribe

I sit corrected... I haven't held one in about five years.... Way to long with my memory.  mia copa mia copa  

and I still think you would make a great night club photographer from the forties.


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## JamesD

Yeah, it only took me about three weeks to figure out how to release the finder.  And it is a prism finder.

Okay, I find the little light next to the shutter speed dial.  However, it doesn't come on.  I tried turning the shutter speed dial through all the positions, including the target, but it doesn't light up, button down or no.

I assume that by releasing mirror lockup, you're talking about when the mirror locks up because the battery is dead?  My mirror locks up and releases with the little lever right in front of the film wind.

Speaking of film wind; mine has a problem there.  It will wind just fine, but when the lever gets back to the forward-facing position, where it should stop, it feels like it skips a tooth or something and it keeps going.  However, if I put it in multiple exposure mode, it works just fine.  Unfortunately, it doesn't wind the film.

I'm assuming I need to get it repaired, unless you can tell me it's not really broken and I just need to RTFM, which I don't have. Heh.


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## mysteryscribe

Obviously i cant help you... I thought the 1000s was a purely mechanical shutter system.  I am so confused.  Sorry guys do not ever listen to a amn whose newest camera was made before you were born..


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## JamesD

Oh yeah, and that little lever that sticks out the side of the film wind... when the camera is ready to fire, it's sticking out the bottom.  What's it for?


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, and that little lever that sticks out the side of the film wind... when the camera is ready to fire, it's sticking out the bottom. What's it for?


I'll have to look at mine to get a visual, cause I'm not sure what you mean. 

How do your negatives look as far as spacing? If they're uneven between frames and you are detecting some skipping, you really do owe it to yourself and the camera to get a CLA/possible repair. Every single function should be silky smooth. 

That said - if there's no green light, you either need to change your battery or, if you HAVE a new battery, again you'll need a CLA, cause something's not making a connection. 

I'm going to check my manual later and see if anything pops up that may be of value. Seems to me you should NOT be in multiple exposure mode when film's in the camera for regular use (I think when there's NO film in the cam, you put it in ME mode so you can play around with the film advance). 

Sorry for the thread hijack, Charlie, but I'm all aglow at discovering a fellow 1000S owner. :razz: 

And yeah, I agree with you about the 40's nightclub photographer thing. I'd be fabulous! :mrgreen:


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## mysteryscribe

Yes you would. Im still surprised to find that your shutter is operated by battery. The only battery in my 645 I thought was in the meter. But it has been a long time and I really have bad memory loss. Most likely I am wrong but I do remember the release on the rear now that you mention it for the prism.

You can't hi jack a thread lol. It isnt a damn airplane. Alright take this thread to cuba mon, I have a 645 in my pocket......


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## JamesD

To be perfectly honest, I haven't run any film through it yet.  The film wind thing is annoying.  I can probably get it to "work" by winding it 'til it skips, then stop, switch to ME and wind it back around 'til it stops.  Acorse, I'm going to forget and wind up double or triple exposing, or getting only eight or nine exposures instead of 15.  Murphey's law.

I've got a roll of 120 I'll run through it.


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## JamesD

Okay, I'm an ID-10T.

So, I load the film in, and go to wind it up. I start winding like crazy to get past the leader to frame #1.... and BAM!  It stops.

I check to make sure it's not in ME.  It isn't.  I hit the shutter.  It clicks.  I wind.  It stops.  I hit the shutter.  It clicks.  I wind.  It stops.... you get the picture.

So, it skips if there's no film in it, but once there's film it it, it works fine.

Derr...:banghead:


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## mysteryscribe

Now make the paper negative roll both of you and go shoot some.


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm an ID-10T.
> 
> So, I load the film in, and go to wind it up. I start winding like crazy to get past the leader to frame #1.... and BAM! It stops.
> 
> I check to make sure it's not in ME. It isn't. I hit the shutter. It clicks. I wind. It stops. I hit the shutter. It clicks. I wind. It stops.... you get the picture.
> 
> So, it skips if there's no film in it, but once there's film it it, it works fine.
> 
> Derr...:banghead:


hmmm....so it DID advance all the way till you hit "1" on the exposure counter? After you clicked the film holder in place and started winding, it should go all the way to "1" and then - yes - stop.

Charlie: you'll get no paper negs out of me. :mrgreen:


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## mysteryscribe

Then Ill just have to lower my expectations...


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## JamesD

How shall I get an enlargement?  The paper is too opaque, and my enlarger doesn't handle anything larger than 35mm to boot.


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## mysteryscribe

scan it as a negative.. then use the photo editor to reverse it. 

Save all your rolls and black paper to reroll your own paper negs also to make short rolls if you want to just make one or two shots. Ie still life studio stuff. Never Never throw away your black paper and spools as long as there is a place to store them.

You can probably roll it right in the black paper without having make leaders. You will be removing bulk of the film when the roll is gone, and replacing it with shorter though thicker paper strips. LoL what a fun project.

just go into your dark bathroom with your paper cutter and your safe light. Cut the paper to a 10" by 2 3/8 (max) strip. then go to where the film was taped and masking tape the paper sheet to it. then rool it up tight BACKWArds (loose in of the paper first) Then go shoot the heck out of it.

then you can load it into your daylight film tank and develop it like paper in the kitchen sink while drinking a cup of coffee in the daylight.


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, and that little lever that sticks out the side of the film wind... when the camera is ready to fire, it's sticking out the bottom. What's it for?


That's to remove the handle. There are all kinds of groovy things you can do with this little camera, I am discovering.


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## JamesD

terri said:
			
		

> That's to remove the handle. There are all kinds of groovy things you can do with this little camera, I am discovering.




Yeah, me and Ed figured that out while I was out dropping off the roll of film I shot with it this afternoon. Unfortunately, Ed no longer has his machine calibrated for 120 film--or maybe just not the Fuji film I used.  I'll have to ask.  In any case, I'm not going to be getting prints; I'll have to go to Dothan to get it done. Naturally, my enlarger only handles 135 format and smaller film, so I'm not gonna be able to print the negatives myself, even if they're BW.

As for the camera, I think I finally know what all the little levers, switches, and buttons are for.  Lots of stuff on this camera.

Charlie:  I dun't wanna do digital! :whine: I'm all about the analog thing.  Plus, my scanner doesn't do film very well--even the TMA it has built in is lousy (and designed for 35mm only).  I suppose I could make ittty bitty contact prints and scan those... but that's hard to control.  I've recently realized that in the past, all my work has been intended (if subconsciously) for the web; now, I want to shift my focus to creating prints worthy of hanging on the wall, with web display as a secondary intent.  IE, rather than scanning a print and tweaking it in The Gimp until it looks good, working directly with the negative and enlarger to get a good-looking print, then scanning that, making simple adjustments to make the online version look like the real thing.

I'm planning an enlarger for the 4X5 format, to take it to 8X10 (maybe more).  My next woodworking project.  It'll likely use the same lens that the camera does.  I mean, after all, it's gotta be the right focal length, right?  Perhaps not the highest-quality system, but it'll do until I can afford a real enlarging lens, and maybe it'll introduce some of that retro feel from the lesser-quality optics.

Anyway, food for thought.... I'll quit, cuz I don't want anyone to get mental indigestion..


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## mysteryscribe

Well James I have to tell you what a wise old man once told me.  The short strokes or the long stroke all work in the end.  I wish I could do the dark room thing again.  But alas it is not to be.

Good luck with your development.  by the way 645 most likely can be printed from your 35mm enlarger.  You just need to make yourself a negative carrier with a larger hole.  I expect your lens will cover pretty close.  You likely have a 50mm lens on the enlarger and the 645 perfect lens is really closer to 70mm than eighty.  also they used to do a thing with cheap camera where they curved the back to compensate for shortness of the lens.  If you dont curve it too much, you can probably get away with it fine.  That is curve the print paper on the easle.  You could get some vinyetting but that wont be a really big problem,  Just shoot to the center of the frame and you can get a pretty good print.


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## JamesD

I thought was actually just thinking about whether a larger carrier would work... And I have a 75mm (I think) lens somewhere around that Ed gave me with the enlarger... but I think it's fixed aperture, as well.  I'm gonna go check this out right now...

Edit:
Short answer: No.  The light source is less than 6 cm across, and therefore will not cover a 6 cm negative.  Part of it, sure, but I want the whole thing.  Otherwise, I might as well be shooting 35mm.

I actually managed to find the lens.  It is an 86mm fixed-aperture lens.  After mounting it on my enlarger, I see that it will not even focus; the bellows doesn't have enough extension.


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## mysteryscribe

Thinking retro means you can problem solve because you always have problems.  Here's one that is kinda interesting.

I shot one film holder two shots in a 3x4 retro thing today.  Got back and they were fine or seemed to be.  first I found a streak on one then one on the other.  I couldn't tell if they were in exactly the same place on both negs but theywere darn sure similar.

First thought, there is a leak in the bellows, there is a leak around the lens.  After all I installed the lens.  Then I thought well maybe it's a leak around the back.  I had one of those recently.  It was on a new camera not on one I had used before.

I took a better look at the neg before I began resealing the camera.  I found that there was a light leak track in the clear area around the edge of the negative.  I had a cut film holder remember.

That shows me that it leaked inside the holder before the dark slide was pulled.  On very close examination of the film holder it looks as though there is deterioration in the cloth hinge at the rear of the film holder.  I taped over it with some vinyl tape and it should fix the problem.  

That's what you get for thinking retro.  Those film holders are probably older than me.  There are two kinds that I own one is a newer model but I don't like them as well.  Hard to imagine that isn't it.


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## mysteryscribe

One more thing about retro thinking.  I found out that my wife tried to bribe the mailman to just throw my ebay purchases in the dumpster at the post office to cut down on the amount of junk in our trash can.  Does that tell you anything about thinking retro....


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## mysteryscribe

*THE ONLY TWO THINGS IN LIFE THAT MAKE IT WORTH LIVIN' BEAT UP OLD CAMERAS AND FIRM LOOKIN' WOMEN.*

Can you tell I've been back working in the dark room again.

I was sitting here with my shirt pocket draggin' me down and thinking what a difference a few years makes. At thirty it would have been a pack of cigarettes and a lighter in that pocket.... now its reading glasses and a light meter. May how tires do change.

One more random thought.  I saw a post titled .  I didn't know where to put this, and it had a picture...  I would never dare title a post with a pic like that.... someone would tell me...


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## mysteryscribe

You gotta love spam... why just this morning alone I can lose 20 lbs...gain and inch... have it be rock hard... and meet a hot housewife in my area.... and I'd bet my last nickle it is my wife.


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## mysteryscribe

just as an after thought I checked two of my vintage camera lenses today and both have very dead shutters.  I think it is the heat and humidity in my studio.  I don't keep the ac on when I am not using it and I only use it an hour a day.

I have replaced the lenses on the cameras but I really hate to lose the vintage lenses.  I kept the glass and plan to use them as barrel lenses, but still, its a downer.


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## mysteryscribe

The very first camera I ever butchered was a polaroid 160.. I added a 6x7 film back to it.  I got bored and tore it up for parts so today I finished the build on 160 I coverted to 3x4 cut film.  I like it a lot ugly as sin but it fits my mood.


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## mysteryscribe

I was banging around the site when I saw something that reminded me of a story.  I had a wedding in one of those huge old stately almost gothic churches once.  I got there my usual hour before and scoped the place out.  I found the idea place to set up the balcony cam.  It was in the organ loft at the rear of the huge stately old church.  Boy was I going to have a great shot.

The bride came down the aisle going in.  I shot here and all the brides maids then I rushed up to shoot the crowd from the organ loft.  The shot went off without a hitch.  I rushed back down stairs and went to the crowded reception in the church parlor.

When the proofs came back there was this absolutely gorgeous shot of the huge EMPTY church.  That crowd from the reception was lost in the huge church.  I printed it anyway even though it looked as though the hundred or so people were all on the front three rows.   I loved the church shot.

I swear i didn't I know how sad a shot it looked until now that I have seen someone else's empty church shot.  Makes me wonder why I even shot it since it was a for hire job.


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## mysteryscribe

i am approaching the end of the line for a retro build... I am building the ultimate trash heap camera.  This one is 4x5 sheet film 

Body is a polaroid 420 (plastic) I think in this polaroid stands for solid bodily waste product.

the back is made of masonite, liguid nail and a lot of prayers.

the lens board broke off so it is held on with contact cement.

The lens is a wallensak 35mm glass set with a very ancient shutter. the lens elements are epoxied in. They can not be removed for cleaning god help me. 

the aperuter scale is gone from the shutter so Im guessing 'what is what'. Always a good way to start the day. 

The bellows pulled loose from the piece of plastic (aka crap) of a lens board. 

Everything is together now but the lens has not been attached. I am pretty sure the max fstop is 11... I am basing that on the fact that I could hardly see to set the infinity stop position. That would mean the min f is probably 32... No doubt this is a tripod camera....

Anybody know how to build a wooden tripod. I'm thinking one that doesn't fold up just opens up. Like a surveyors tripod.

Oh yeah i think i will laminate this one with wood. LOL why not nothing else about it is going to be original.


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## JamesD

Charlie, I do believe that you are not just a photographer, but also a sculptor.  Better yet, your sculptures are functional.

What was all that discussion we were having a while back about art and artists?


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## mysteryscribe

before we get to far into the black slapping the damn lens is toast or better yet wet.... the seal between the elements is gone it is not like the sweat on the outside of a beer glass. Piece of crap. Of to ebay to buy a lens. tra la tra la tra la..

By the way thanks for that tripod screw reciever idea... it works great.  The furniture thingie...


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## mysteryscribe

I couldn't find a decent lens so I decided to go pinhole with it.k  I never tried a 4x5 negative pinhole camera.  If I get bored with it, I might look for a single element glass lens to stick on there for a nice retro look.  actually I have one come to think of it with a shutter even.  Now that should be interesting except the shutter probably isnt dependable enough but I can break the leafs out of it with and f350 there isnt going to be need for a shutter anyway.  Just a lens cover.  This might be a fun project after all...


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## JamesD

My pinhole is a 4X5.  One thing I've done to help make the pinhole more circular is turn a sewing needle into a drill.  I take a micro-file (emeryboard would probably work too, but might take a bit longer) and file the tip of a sewing needle on both sides so that it's flat on either side.  This makes a neat cutting edge.  Then, I put the material I'm drilling through on a piece of hardwood (okay, I really just put it on the table, which is hardwood) and with gentle pressure, spin the needle between my fingers.  If the material is substantially thick, I do both sides once the hole has made it through the metal, so that it lines up properly.  This gives a bevel on each side, with a thin, sharp edge in the middle, which is good for pinholes. It does take a while, but it makes a nice pinhole, much nicer than simply punching through the material.  Aluminum from soda cans works pretty well, as far as I can tell; I haven't been shooting much pinhole lately, but the initial results were nice.


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## mysteryscribe

I have a couple if tiny little drill bits... ONe is  .0177 of an inch and the other is 1.5 mm  I drill through roof flashing for a base.  the soda can had a heck of an appeal to me though since I am out of roof flashing.


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## terri

James, we haven't seen any pinholes from you recently....come on and show us something new!  Those first few were great.


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## mysteryscribe

This falls under thinking retro.

I saw a post in another thread "how often does a camera need service?"  It took me a while to resist the urge to write when it's borken.

When I got into the business, it was buy a camera use it till it wont work then thrash it.  Once a camera fails on me it is no longer considered dependable.  When I can't depend it, it is gone.

My daddy had a saying, if you can't count on a tool all the time, you can count on it any of the time.  Cars get two chances with me, cameras none.

I know dslrs are very expensive and require service, it's just a foreign concept to me pepsonally.  My motto still is: buy it, use it up, then sell it on ebay for parts.


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## mysteryscribe

I'm winding down a camera build and going more than a little nuts with it.  the camera is finished, but everytime I try to test it, I screw something up.  Something minor to be sure but still, it is a stupid mistake.

I have recently gone from using two developers to making a single developer for film and paper.  I simple combined the two and adjusted my times.  When I decided to go all the way with it, I combined all the chemicals I had left about.  However when I did it, I had four ounces of d76 left over.  With my swiss cheeze mind thing going, I forgot about it.  So for the last couple of days, I have been testing the camera and getting really strange results.  Of course I am I thought I was using a hot shot developer and was instead using pute d76.  Everytime I pulled something from the soup it was two stop under exposed.  And now I know why.

So after lunch it is back to the drawing board.


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## JamesD

terri said:
			
		

> James, we haven't seen any pinholes from you recently....come on and show us something new!  Those first few were great.




Aww... You're too kind, Terri.  Just for you, I'll see if I can work a few in this weekend.


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## terri

JamesD said:
			
		

> Aww... You're too kind, Terri. Just for you, I'll see if I can work a few in this weekend.


:cheer:


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## markc

Going back a little bit, I disagree with you in what you refer to as "retro", and what that implies about working digitally. A lot of what you are complaining about is not because of people working with digital images. It is, however, a lot more common now, since even more people can get into photography even more easily these days. The ratio has changed. Since it used to take more effort, only people willing to put that effort in bothered with it. There were still people who approached photography quite casually, they just weren't as numerous.

Personally, I don't think the look of a lot of what's out there now differs much 
from most Instamatic shots. A lot of people still use on-camera flash, wide angles, and auto-everything for most shots. 

But working with quality in mind isn't a retro idea. It's alive and well in the digital age. It's just a bit more buried in the crowd, since so many more people are involved. (And Ansel Adams was one hell of a techie.)


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## mysteryscribe

Glad to have you reading...

Thinking retro isnt all about photography... it's also a bit about nostalga but bent toward photography. Some of it is a whine in the wind, and some of it is just sour grapes. I wish I was back working. It's a lot of ranting to.

Either way your opinion is always thoughtful and I think reasonable. I'm glad you bothered to read the thread. And forums aren't about seeing things the same. We are supposed to disagree now and then.

To me this isn't just about digital. Its about how things have changed since they wheeled out the film slr. Yes in the end days of film most people who bought the low end slrs had less and less technical knowledge. They depended more and more on the camera manufacturers.

That is probably the root of the technology can replace study, experimentation, and experience. If I buy a Nikon SLR, I don't need to do anything else. Didn't happen to be a digital in the 80s and 90s.

Digital just gets the rap as being the current fad. It does indeed go back to the numbers and it always will. Too many dollars chasing too little talent. Inflation is what we have here folks.

One of my now infamous stories. I went to a wedding once and a guest had a fancier camera than I did. He said something about being better equipted than me. I gave him my patronizing smile, and asked how many photos he had taken with his fancy new camera. He didn't even answer he just walked away. He probably still thought the camera made the photographer. Well it doesn't.

However, I return to what my first teacher had said, "If five hundred shots are made by guests at the wedding, one of them will be better than any of yours. What you can not do is make the 499 crap shots they make to get to it.

I concede digital is a catch phrase, but how many of the film types, who don't know or care about the craft, do you think are on this forum.  If digital were to suddenly disappear and all of them were handed the latest auto everything film slr there would be only a few differences, a great number would stop shooting because they had to bother to load the camera.  But basically things wouldn't change much.  

You know a point you didn't make and should have is, how much of the ranting would I be doing if there weren't forums like this.

There wouldn't be as great an oppurtunity for us to see what others are doing, so I just wouldnt know.  Then nobody would have to suffer with me either.  All things are a two edged sword.  Digital camera made a boat load of money for the mfg.  It put a lot of people out there struggling to make better pics and both those are good things.  But it also bred a generation of photographers who will only learn if you hit them over the head.  The problem isnt them screw them, the problem is all the other new photographers they infect.  

Okay maybe I shouldn't care but I think of all the photographers I have known in my lifetime.  I am limited to which ones as most of us are.  Mine weren't great by world standards.  They were mostly just hard working average blue blue collar photographers, or pure artist types who happened to shoot pictures as well.  When I think of then then think of some of the people who are carrying several thousand dollars worth of equipment, but don't seem to know what to do with it, it just irritates the hell out of me.

So just chalk it up to too much time and too few other hobbies.


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## PNA

mysteryscribe.... with no offence intended,

I&#8217;ve read through most of this thread, pinholes and all, and I&#8217;ve come to realize one common thought, you are an old man (and that&#8217;s from and older man) and you&#8217;re obsessed with the past, large format film cameras and your retreating memory; wahhh, wahh wahh.
You seem accept digital as a mechanical device producing pictures, but not necessarily the creative quality that it produces. At some point there has to be an agreement as to what photography is and what are great shots. I agree that there is a lot of crap out there, (yes I have an opinion) but rushing to criticism without offering honest instruction can not be productive. &#8220;They&#8221; are competing with each other. And I find that exciting.
The world of photography has expanded to everyone who has a computer and any kind of photo processing program. Granted most are snapshots made by proud parents of the kids, but to them it&#8217;s photography, and they&#8217;re into that "artistic mode". To deny anyone the satisfaction of creating a photo that attempts to rival the best, is to take away the inspiration, motivation and experience of holding a camera in the first place.
I too, grew up in the darkroom, but now find digital processing from capturing to editing an extremely rewarding effort. No fixer or developer to splash around, no drums to spin or red bulbs to change; granted the smells are missing, but what the hell. Change is here to change! 
By the way I grew up with my dad&#8217;s box Kodak then graduated to an Ftn, F3, F5 over the years and now a D70. Digital and computer generated results are all new to me as to many others. Crap existed before and it will continue to be created into the future, thank God. Hopefully we will all benefit from the results.

I look forward to a response...........


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## mysteryscribe

Those are all good points.  I even wrote a long post but decided what the heck, you get it or you don't.  Being old has nothing to do with it, but most who get it are old.... 

As for my failing memory, I can only say, I forgot what I wanted to say sorry.


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## PNA

All in good form......


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## PNA

Furthermore, I neglected to express my respect to your extensive experience as a professional and gladly accept any and all criticism regarding my posted shots. In many ways your life as a photo pro is quite envious. For years I&#8217;ve said I would want to have been an airline pilot (I am a licensed commercial pilot) and second, a photographer for National Geographic. In the next life!


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## mysteryscribe

I would love to have been a combat photographer during the vietnam war. I was there with a petri 7s but not shooting combat shots. I did a lot of fun things since, but thats my regret. 

The best shot I ever saw in every respect was a shot of barbed wire with bodies hanging on it lit by a willie pete shell. 

It was full of emotions. Thats the one thing I hate about my photography. I could never quite get that kind of emotional response because my audiance was so small. The customer. Nothing grand in the stuff I shot. And of course I was a failed art photographer, by art I do not mean nudes.

Less I catch hell as a war monger ect let me explain about the shot. First the details... 

Everybody knew that Charlie was coming to the dance, so this guy with stars and stripes set up a leica on a tripod looking out of the bunker. It was so dark that the only light was from the shells. He absolutely guessed at the exposure. You could hear the shell whosh through the air so when the whosh came he opened the lens on bulb and held it open till the light was gone. he did it over and over. while the men in the bunker sweated from the heat and the anxiety.

He took the film to Saigon to the stars and stipes darkroom where they worked for days on it. In the end the picture never ran. Somebody decided it was too gruesome. Too much a reminder of the **** death camps.

It was the most emotional photograph that I have ever seen. It's the kind of thing you go a lifetime and never make. That shot had a haunting ghostly quality about it. Everyone who saw it, said different things about it.


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## PNA

WOW...That's quite a story. Does the shot or a copy still exist?
I never saw combat, MD NG and summer camps so it's difficult to relate to war time experiences. Obviously you made it out alive and that's plenty to be thankful for. Vietnam was not good for anyone.

You look great with a farmers hat...your self-photo.


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## mysteryscribe

LOL 

I was tempted to use one of your quotes and make a comment now i think i will.  the comment was"

Crap has always happened and always will, something like that.  My comment would have been

Yes but we dont have to celebrate it.


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## PNA

I don't propose celebrating crap photos, only to accpet them for what they are and offer help to those interested in improving their product. If nothing is learned and crap continues, well there is a point in time to give up, shove it aside and go on.

I do agree with a statement you made awhile back regarding to veiw and comment or just pass. Personally, it appears too much at-a-boy is offered without real intent.


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## PNA

Nothing like a good scotch and an exchange of thoughts...........


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## mysteryscribe

Jack daniels on a saturday night... isnt that a song?

But seriously, the problem with mediocre shots is worse than pure crap.  Pure crap floats and everybody recognizes it... mediocity stays right under the surface and most people just think it must not be the shot it has to be me everybody else loves it so i should shoot like that.


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## PNA

I understand you logic and the misconception, however there a many mediocre shots out there that are bought with real $s that you or I may consider crap. So where does it begin and end? Isn't the buyer the final judge while we are the amateurs in waiting?


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## mysteryscribe

Hey I sold my share of crap... Mama will buy anything from her daughter's wedding.  I know crap, crap is a friend of mine, but I think i hate mediocrity worse.  But you have a point people praise crap as well as mediocrity.

But you see garbage in wedding albums and on the piano, you don't often see it in a magazine.   I can't believe I went back and deleted the name of the magazine so I wouldnt offend out younger photographers.


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## PNA

As I said the buyer is the boss....and Mama can be the boss to.

I've never had the pleasure of sell my shots. Never really tried and don't know where and how to offer them.....not that they're sellable!

Posted today was a head shot in blue with a negative triangle in the middle....I assume you saw it. Anyway, I for one thought it was very creative, but others rated it thumbs down.....your thoughts.


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## mysteryscribe

give me a name and ill look it up


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## PNA

Artsy is easy?


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## mysteryscribe

Okay all the elements are there... It's graphic and its interesting to me but I'm not sure it has a basic pop culture understanding how about this instead. Remember the elements are yours not mine.

If it isnt your out it goes
before i get in trouble


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## PNA

This not what I saw......I'll try to copy it.


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## PNA

This is the shot I saw....


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## mysteryscribe

Yeah i changed it.  
but to be honest it is artsy but not without a caption to explain it.  Lets say you took that same shot made no changes but just what you see there and turned it into a book cover.  

"Orwell's 1984 lives"  You are the one that said crap could be art to someone lol.


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## PNA

I just read your "favorite quote"....    ,I'm honored.

That's one old man to another....


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## PNA

And you think that photo is crap????by it's self?

Hummmm, Prehaps it's because I've never seen a shot created quite like that.


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## mysteryscribe

I don't see anything in it but

It does have the graffic design elements going for it but doesnt take full advantage of them  

still it has that orwell look.  I would play on that if I was trying to sell it at a fair


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## PNA

OK, I&#8217;ll admit I may not be a final judge in art, however I do recognize what I like; i.e. Picasso is not a favorite. Much of abstract art is not appealing, so when I see something interestingly creative and out of the ordinary such as this shot, I say I like it. My choices are Rubens, some of Rembrandt, Toulouse, and several others during the Italian renaissance. Skateboarding, NASCAR and motorcycle racing photos do not rattle my cage. Black and whites of anything offer excellent moods and interpretation of feelings whereas color is rather straight forward&#8230;..if you&#8217;re not color blind. 

Anyway&#8230;this has been fun. I'm sure we could go on with our views and hopefully agree to disagree.


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## mysteryscribe

civil disagreement is a lot like civil disobedience more than acceptable sometimes necessary.  good night


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## PNA

Early morning thoughts&#8230;&#8230;

What if I were to offer you something that you considered valuable and your friend (s) told you is was worthless, would you then say it was worthless also? Would you attempt to realize that person&#8217;s issues and perhaps offer corrective construction? Therein lays individual reasoning and that, I believe, is where the distinction of quality levels come to play. What you think is important, not what everyone else&#8217;s opinions are. Repeating the saying regarding beauty, eye and beholder has always been the critical judgment rule. Is the king wearing clothes?

And yes, hail &#8220;1984&#8221;&#8230;..it is upon us. This country does not have enough civil discourse to guide us. We, the people, have given that power away.


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## mysteryscribe

Okay, okay from now on i will say to me this is crap but you can decide for yourself.  lol


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## mysteryscribe

Okay, okay from now on i will say to me this is crap but you can decide for yourself. lol

I always thought that was accepted that it was one man's opinon only. I can spell it out from now on.

By the way they all knew the king was nude they were just afraid to say it peer presser and govt pressure sound familiar.


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## PNA

Good morning....
Taking a position and arguing it is very healthy for both sides. There's always someone who knows more than me and I attempt to listen, understand and always respect their opinions. 
"An ignorant man asks no question."


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## mysteryscribe

There was a discussion on another thread recently about those pesky group photos at weddings.  Today something came up that deserves exploring.  Since I really don't want to get into a controversy and this sounds a little contrived ( which it isnt) I thought I would hide it away here.

First of all my wife's mother had to be sent to a nursing home.  She has degenerative lung disease.  While there her younger sister died, so she has had a pretty rough time.  Most of her brothers and sisters have passed away but that isn't the story.

The story is this.  She had a nephew that for some reason my wife called Uncle Woodie even though he was her cousin.  I know get to the point please.  Well Woodie was a professional photographer in their home town.  Struggling to make ends meet I'm sure.  In 1953 one of the family memebers got married and Woodie did the wedding pictures.  They are all black and white even though there was some color available then.

Woodie pulled out his negatives from that wedding last week and reprinted the family group picture.  The one everybody hates to make.  All the parents grand parents sisters and brother and all their kids were standing in a line no special pose and certainly no art there.  He sent copies to all the surviving kids.  Now Uncle Woodie has to be at least eighty years old.  Guess there weren't any sales of the image left.

Anyway my wife visits her mother after work every night.  Tonight she was an hour late coming home.  She and her mother looked at the picture and they told family stories.  A wedding was the only time the whole family managed to get to gether, it seems.

What a drag to have to shoot those old fashioned stock pictures.


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## PNA

Sorry to hear of your family member&#8217;s illness

Those stock photos were the mainstay of family reunions. Us kids would whoop up when it came time to gather and &#8220;pose&#8221; for the picture. Same for the old 8mm movie cameras with four flood lights on the bar. The lights were blinding and when the film was viewed everyone had a Chinese squint about them. Years gone by.


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## mysteryscribe

I'm a member of another forum that is mostly about alternative processes. paper negs, cobbled cameras and penholes, Today their new newsletter came out and one of the images it features is an image of mine from the paper negative files. Thought I would repost it here just for the heck of it, It's here somewhere already,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The image got a lot of good reviews most everywhere but here... lol....


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## terri

It's nice to get the recognition!    :thumbup:    Very cool.


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## mysteryscribe

This is a suitable place to end thinking retro,,,, for the most part it has been a blast... thank you all


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## mysteryscribe

Anyone reading this most likely knows I shoot with antique glass.  I recently got this hair crosswise so decided to pull out my 35mm slr and shoot it.  Then I went to shoot my leica knock off.  I put the film through my dedicated 35mm scanner.  It was sharp enough, it was contrasty, it was really nice looking stuff.  That is if you haven't been shooting large negs and antique glass.

It was sharp, and contrasty okay, but it was also hard and cold.  I know that is impossible since film only shows what you put on it, but it honestly is cold and hard.  The antiques for whatever reason have a warmth that is missing from the modern stuff.

Thought I would mention this and this thread seemed like the place to do it.


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