# How do I nicely say "You shouldn't be charging for photos yet?" Please help!



## CandySvoboda (Apr 11, 2013)

*First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!*

So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography.  I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with.  A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business.  The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business!  A couple things I'd like to point out:

1)Most importantly, she hasn't done any research on how to legally form a business.  She hasn't talked to lawyers, she doesn't have any formal contracts, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't know anything about how to file taxes on the theoretical money she wants to make.

2)Her equipment is severely lacking.  I'm usually not one to be a snob and judge what people can and cannot use for their business, but in my opinion, her Canon Rebel and kit lens do not qualify as equipment one should use in a professional environment.  I once talked to her about how she should invest in a hot shoe flash and her response was "The one on the camera is good enough."

3)She hasn't gotten out of the dial modes.  I would bet the farm that she doesn't understand anything about DOF, ISO, shutter speeds, etc.  After viewing some photos she took at a friends wedding (she was just a guest), I noticed that a lot of them were very blurred action shots of the wedding party walking down the aisle and such.  I asked what settings she had used and she said "Oh I used portrait mode."  I didn't really question anything after that...

4)Most of the time her photos are out of focus (or focused on the wrong element).  They're also usually either under or overexposed with blown out backgrounds, improper white balance, and just about every other common mistake people who are first learning tend to make.

5)Her prices and packages are ridiculously priced.  She's charging almost as much (about $75 less) for an engagement shoot as a seasoned professional in my area who has been shooting for years.

I'm concerned and frankly a little POed that she is jumping into this without any real experience and knowledge of what she's doing.  I feel like people should have respect for this field and I feel like she is lacking that respect.  I would like to talk to her about this, but I don't know how to nicely say that she shouldn't be trying to pass herself off as a professional when she clearly is not.  Do any of you guys have some advice for me?  Have you been in a similar situation yourself?  Please help!


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## Designer (Apr 11, 2013)

People do this all the time, and I don't think there is anything anybody can do about it.

Do you have enough experience to critique her photos?  If so, you could offer to help her with a critique session.  

As for the tax situation, unless you are an expert yourself, I suggest that you don't try to interfere with the legal stuff.


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 11, 2013)

I'd completely ignore this, stay out of her business and wish her luck in her pursuits.

Anybody shopping for a professional photographer will know when they see her work that she's not qualified, or better said, what they will be getting for their money.  If they choose to pay for inferior photos, then that's their business.  

Why do you care?


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## CandySvoboda (Apr 11, 2013)

> Why do you care?



I don't want to see her get herself into trouble and get stuck in a jam.  She's a friend I've known for some time and I don't want to see a friend get caught up in something nasty.



> People do this all the time, and I don't think there is anything anybody can do about it.
> 
> Do you have enough experience to critique her photos?  If so, you could offer to help her with a critique session.
> 
> As for the tax situation, unless you are an expert yourself, I suggest that you don't try to interfere with the legal stuff.



You make a fair point about the taxes, I just wanted to point out that she hadn't tried to seek out any legal counsel.
I've been shooting for about 3 years now, so I have some experience and have done a few critiques as well.  Thank you for the advice on the critique session, I didn't even think of that.


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## pixmedic (Apr 11, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> *First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!*
> 
> So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography.  I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with.  A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business.  The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business!  A couple things I'd like to point out:
> 
> ...




I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend? 

seriously though... this comes up on the forum almost every week. In all reality,  no one is going to change anyone's mind about their business practices.
The only two things that will matter are whether or not her clients are satisfied with the work she provides, and if the IRS catches wind of undocumented income. 
If she seriously fails at either one, she wont be in "business" long anyway. 
if she is a friend, let it go and wish her the best of luck.  if not, let it go and wish her the best of luck. 
it shouldn't affect you one way or the other.


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## MK3Brent (Apr 11, 2013)

Mind your own business.


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## CandySvoboda (Apr 11, 2013)

> I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend? ;-)



Oh my gosh that was embarrassing...That's what happens when I have 4 cups of coffee with lunch!  I'll be fixing that typo shortly, haha.

I didn't know this comes up so much, next time I'll have to search the forums more.  Thanks for your imput, it seems to be the general consensus so far


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## pixmedic (Apr 11, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> > I am curious as to what "hot shoe lens" you would recommend? ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it can be a touchy subject. there is very little you could do to dissuade her without it jeopardizing your friendship.
the best thing you can do is let her do her thing however she is determined to do it. just try to be a friend and not a business adviser.  if she does well, you are a supportive friend. If things go bad, you are a shoulder to cry on. you never know, she might surprise you.


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 11, 2013)

To the OP:  I think you'll find that there are a lot of people on this forum that would tend to agree with you -- particularly the "old school" folks who have made a living doing this for years.  They get VERY irritated when NooB's buy a DSLR at Best Buy, shoot for a week or 2, get accolades from friends and family on their Facebook posts and think "this is easy!  I'm going to shoot for profit!"

As Medic indicated above, there is at least 1 of these posts weekly on the forum.  I think those of us who are on here regularly are so sick and tired of responding to these types of threads that we take the "Eff It!" attitude and say just stay out of her business.

It's not that we don't get what you are saying--we just have reached the point of no longer caring.


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## Light Guru (Apr 11, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> To the OP:  I think you'll find that there are a lot of people on this forum that would tend to agree with you -- particularly the "old school" folks who have made a living doing this for years.  They get VERY irritated when NooB's buy a DSLR at Best Buy, shoot for a week or 2, get accolades from friends and family on their Facebook posts and think "this is easy!  I'm going to shoot for profit!"



Its even worse when they have never shot with a DSLR and post on here saying they are starting a freelance photography business and want to know what camera they should get.


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## Steve5D (Apr 11, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> *First off, I apologize for the extremely long winded post, but I'm in need of some real advice!*
> 
> So about a year ago I sold my first DSLR (Canon Rebel XS) to a friend who was interested in photography.  I had outgrown it and she always expressed interest in taking photos, so I thought it would be fun for her to learn with.  A couple months ago when she and I were talking, I had made mention that I'd one day like to turn my hobby into a business.  The next thing I know, she's made a Facebook fan page, a free "template based" website, and is passing herself off as a business!  A couple things I'd like to point out:
> 
> ...



Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.

You say that "people should have respect for this field".

Why?

Every field under the sun has good practitioners and poor practitioners, and it's silly to think that photography should be any different.

My advice? Well, simple: You should realize that it's not your place to say anything to her. As bent out of shape over this as you obviously are, what level of experience do _you _possess which permits you to judge what someone else is doing? Are you a working pro? Do you have that desire if you're not?

I've come to the realization that the only person I should be worrying about is me. Period. I cannot control what others say or do, nor should I want to.

If she's better than you apparently think she is, she may well succeed despite your rants. If she's not, she will fail without them. In either case, complaining about her accomplishes nothing.

But, if you insist that you're in a position which permits you to take her to task for this, tell her straight. Don't pull any punches. Be direct and succinct. Don't worry about hurting her feelings. Tell her how it is; the good and the bad. Leave no gray area.

Or simply accept that this is her business and not yours...


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## tirediron (Apr 11, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> ... Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.
> You say that "people should have respect for this field".
> 
> Why?
> ...


Hmmm....  do you not see the irony of this statement Steve?


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## rexbobcat (Apr 11, 2013)

You should invite her to lunch and then when you get there tell the waiter to hold yo rings while you backhand her so hard her weave flies off.

Know what I sayin' gurlfran?

Seriously though let it go. If you must say something send her a strongly worded email. Break her spirit and feed on her corpse. It is the only way.


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## bentcountershaft (Apr 11, 2013)

In my opinion, IF the ONLY reason you're concerned is because you don't want to see your friend hurt by her imminent failure then you should tell her.  If that isn't the case, which it doesn't appear to be, let it go.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 11, 2013)

bestbuy kit and everyone's a pro


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## CandySvoboda (Apr 11, 2013)

> It's not that we don't get what you are saying--we just have reached the point of no longer caring.



Well, I am still a new user on this forum, and if I had to read the same post over and over, I'd feel the same way! 



> Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.
> 
> You say that "people should have respect for this field".
> 
> ...



I feel that people should show respect for the work they do, or aspire to do, no matter what the field, including photography.  What would you think if a medical student showed complete disregard for learning?  Not trying to pick a fight or be rude to you, just pointing something out.   



> You should invite her to lunch and then when you get there tell the  waiter to hold yo rings while you backhand her so hard her weave flies  off.
> 
> Know what I sayin' gurlfran?



:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:  500 points for the laughs!

Anywho, I think I'm just going to leave it alone and let her do her thing.  However, if she starts complaining to me that she's not making any money, I might have to take some advice and backhand her so her weave flies off


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## Tiller (Apr 11, 2013)

Just tell her to buy a 70-200 f2.8 II bc then she really will be a pro!! Cuz ya know...it's white and stuff.


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## sm4him (Apr 11, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> To the OP:  I think you'll find that there are a lot of people on this forum that would tend to agree with you -- particularly the "old school" folks who have made a living doing this for years.  They get VERY irritated when NooB's buy a DSLR at Best Buy, shoot for a week or 2, get accolades from friends and family on their Facebook posts and think "this is easy!  I'm going to shoot for profit!"
> 
> As Medic indicated above, there is at least 1 of these posts weekly on the forum.  I think those of us who are on here regularly are so sick and tired of responding to these types of threads that we take the "Eff It!" attitude and say just stay out of her business.
> 
> *It's not that we don't get what you are saying--we just have reached the point of no longer caring*.



I don't know, I don't think it's even that we've reached the point of not caring. For me, at least, it's more than I've reached the point in my life where I am getting better and better at that whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
 Courage to change the things I can,_ and wisdom to know the difference" _thing.

OP: This is not something you can change. If you are determined to try, I hope that you are not TOO attached to this friendship, but it is almost certain to end badly.

For those of us who've considered "hanging out the shingle" but don't do it, it can be irritating as all-get-out to see someone who doesn't even understand the basics of their camera hop onto the Pro bus.  But--it's really NOT something WE can change. What WE can do is concentrate on our own skills.

If her skills are that bad, and yet people hire her...well, unless she is misrepresenting herself by posting photos that aren't hers, they should be getting exactly what they signed on for.  It might be irritating, but such is life. The day I started my FB photography page (not a business, just a "showcase" for my photos really, a way for people to "like" my photography without me having to actually friend them personally), a "friend" (the mother of a good friend of my son, actually), "liked" my page and within an hour, had her OWN page up of absolutely terrible pictures.  Within two days, she had more "likes" on hers than I had on mine. It was highly irritating...and completely out of my control. I just ignored it and went right on concentrating on MY page. I haven't seen her post anything in weeks now.  

The tax thing, well, that's a little different, BUT it's still largely out of your control.  What *I* would do, if I were you is simply start a conversation with her, something along this line:

So, you're starting a photography business. Wow, that takes courage! I hope it goes well. Let me ask you a question: I'd love to start a business myself someday, when I'm ready, but one thing that holds me back is all the legal stuff--so maybe you could help me. What did you have to do to get the business license, and how did you know what to do about the taxes and IRS stuff? Did you hire someone to help you figure it all out?

In other words--ask her "advice" as if assuming she must KNOW these things, because after all, she's "done" it. (yes, it's called Passive Aggressive behavior. I'm good at it, and it may get knocked a lot, but it WORKS.  )

If she poo-poos it, and says something like "Oh, I don't think that's really a problem. I'm just doing this on the side and don't plan to make all that much" or whatever, THEN you can express the "But aren't you a little concerned about what could happen if the IRS finds out? I've heard horror stories about how cities, states and the IRS are finding people in "under the table" businesses through their FB pages or other online presences and then coming after them. I think it would just make me too nervous to go into business without having all that set up.

Now, you've expressed your concern, and maybe planted a seed that perhaps she SHOULD look into making things legal. If she still does nothing about it, then she doesn't CARE if she gets caught. So, why should you?


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 11, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > ... Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.
> ...



Don't even get me started.


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 11, 2013)

2WheelPhoto said:


> bestbuy kit and everyone's a pro



Semi-pro.  Add a pair of PW's and they're officially "pro."

Just sayin'...:mrgreen:


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## Steve5D (Apr 11, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > ... Why on earth would you be pissed of? What a waste of time and energy.
> ...



She asked for input, so I gave her some.

Jus' tryin' to help, Hoss...


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## Steve5D (Apr 11, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> I feel that people should show respect for the work they do, or aspire to do, no matter what the field, including photography.  What would you think if a medical student showed complete disregard for learning?  Not trying to pick a fight or be rude to you, just pointing something out.



Well, I would think he's probably gonna' make a pretty crappy doctor, and choose to continue seeing my current physician. He's not going to change the face of medical practice in America, so why bother even thinking about it? See, nothing the med student does or doesn't do is going to impact me an iota, just as nothing your friend is doing will impact me (or you, for that matter) an iota. Ranting about it serves only one purpose: ranting. Period.

Getting upset about it is just about the least productive thing I can imagine...


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## Pallycow (Apr 11, 2013)

See this a ton locally.  It is annoying, but ultimately....none of my concern.  You can lose friends if they are sensitive, so be careful.  

I have been blocked on FB by 3 locals...lol.  Not for C&C publicly...but privately trying to help them...oh well.  I find it hilarious.

I have learned the fine line to walk when trying to help someone.  I generally want to help others...genuinely.  It's an extra chromosome I have apparently.  However, I have learned that like on here, tooooo many people get butthurt.  Especially when they post crap on FB and get a ton of likes and well wishes on their crap.  It gives them a false sense of accomplishment.  To which, they will in turn pass you off as if you don't know what you're talking about.  

There are 3 young people that have come into the shop to print their images...I tactfully recommend this or that, and usually start by asking them questions...to see how they might answer.  Once they hear me, I leave them alone and see if on their next visit they ask questions or need help.

I mention these 3 in particular because they have no business whatsoever selling themselves as photogs...one even wants to do weddings.  *cringe*

So far, all 3 have been more than receptive...one I will be giving a "one light workshop" too in 2 weeks to help her better understand lighting and how it applies in and out of studio.

There were two others I tried the same thing with.....they smile and take my advice...seemingly...yet when they come back in they have the same crap with no effort to utilize advice given.  I don't offer up help to them anymore.  I simply be polite and smile and wish them well as any other customer.

Long story short....see how receptive a person is to help/critique/advice etc...before trying to advise in any particular direction.  Or just stay out of their business.  Afterall, it really does not affect you.  

;-)


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## The_Traveler (Apr 11, 2013)

I have a good friend who really wants to be a good photographer but just can't seem to get it all together; I have been helping/tutoring him with post-processing. He comes over my house and looks over my shoulder while I take an image of his and analyze it, then do all the edits to the finish. Then he'll try the same process.
Last Monday we worked on two color images and and another that I converted to B&W.
I can say honestly that the difference before and after for each of the images was quite marked.
I do everything in separate layers and label them so he can use them as a 'tutorial.'
He always takes my PS files home with him.
He called me this week and said those three images won two firsts and a second in a local club contest.
I don't know how to feel about that.


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## Pallycow (Apr 11, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I have a good friend who really wants to be a good photographer but just can't seem to get it all together; I have been helping/tutoring him with post-processing. He comes over my house and looks over my shoulder while I take an image of his and analyze it, then do all the edits to the finish. Then he'll try the same process.
> Last Monday we worked on two color images and and another that I converted to B&W.
> I can say honestly that the difference before and after for each of the images was quite marked.
> I do everything in separate layers and label them so he can use them as a 'tutorial.'
> ...



I'm not one to be that "moral" so to speak on many things.  However, I do find that situation a bit sketchy as well.  Honestly, he should not have entered them in a contest since you did the work.  

Congrats to you though for doing a good job.  lol


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## The_Traveler (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, I don't know if he used my edited versions; I hope he didn't but I certainly wouldn't ask or check up.
I want to think the best because he is really a great guy, it is just a bit discomforting.


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## binga63 (Apr 11, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I have a good friend who really wants to be a good photographer but just can't seem to get it all together; I have been helping/tutoring him with post-processing. He comes over my house and looks over my shoulder while I take an image of his and analyze it, then do all the edits to the finish. Then he'll try the same process.
> Last Monday we worked on two color images and and another that I converted to B&W.
> I can say honestly that the difference before and after for each of the images was quite marked.
> I do everything in separate layers and label them so he can use them as a 'tutorial.'
> ...



Lew 

He is a good friend, as you say they were his images
And you are helping him
I'd would congratulate him, and then caution him on the values of winning using your own work and that which someone has adjusted for you
Using the comparison of DAD doing your homework for you and getting an A
If it had of been a separate image from those that you worked on and he used your techniques it would be whole different reaction
my 2 cents


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## runnah (Apr 11, 2013)

The good thing about best friends is that you can and they expect brutal honesty. If you feel you have to lie or subvert the truth in any way they are not as close as you thought.


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## CandySvoboda (Apr 11, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> CandySvoboda said:
> 
> 
> > I feel that people should show respect for the work they do, or aspire to do, no matter what the field, including photography.  What would you think if a medical student showed complete disregard for learning?  Not trying to pick a fight or be rude to you, just pointing something out.
> ...



I definitely see your point now, I think I just took your original post differently than you intended.  Thanks!  I'm sure there are a million "pro" photogs out there doing the same thing as my friend, and I just shrug those people off, so why shouldn't I shrug this off too?  Makes sense.  

I'm very grateful for all the advice here!


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## The_Traveler (Apr 11, 2013)

binga63 said:


> they were his images



and I think I will let it drop.
Now that I thought it through, I am confident that he did his own work and would not distrust his ethical sense to even mention it.


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## Designer (Apr 11, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I don't know how to feel about that.



Used?


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## Derrel (Apr 11, 2013)

WHAT??? Nobody has popped any popcorn? And the movie's already half over! What is WRONG with you people!!!!!  ;-)


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## EIngerson (Apr 11, 2013)

Just tell here to put it in "P" mode. It's the Pro mode and all here shots will be worth money.


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## texkam (Apr 11, 2013)

Right now there is some clueless person baking cupcakes in their kitchen with the dream of starting the next great business.   ... and so it goes.


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 11, 2013)

She joined the 50 buck Craig's List fauxtograhers who take work from real shooters. Why just this week I uttered, "You get what ya pay for..." when I lost a paying gig to someone such as your friend.


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## texkam (Apr 11, 2013)

> She joined the 50 buck Craig's List fauxtograhers who take work from real shooters. Why just this week I uttered, "You get what ya pay for..." when I lost a paying gig to someone such as your friend.


These people are not my competition.


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## Steve5D (Apr 12, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> She joined the 50 buck Craig's List fauxtograhers who take work from real shooters.



Sorry, but "real shooters" don't lose work to $50.00 Craig's List photographers.

A person who loses a gig to some low-balling CL photographer isn't much of a photographer to begin with...


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 12, 2013)

texkam said:


> > She joined the 50 buck Craig's List fauxtograhers who take work from real shooters. Why just this week I uttered, "You get what ya pay for..." when I lost a paying gig to someone such as your friend.
> 
> 
> These people are not my competition.



As I do not charge for my work in dead presidents, but when I finally did give a quote to do a wedding as a favor to my son (his friend) the party said, "I found someone cheaper !"  just my thoughts texham on Best Buy kits who can't use M...


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 12, 2013)

Depends on how good a friend it is, you might be able to bring up ideas in conversation related to starting a business (not necessarily just photography related) like how it would be necessary to keep track of expenses and payments and taxes etc. etc. You can express concerns etc. but to some extent your friend might have to figure out some things on her own.  

I think the easy part is throwing together a Facebook page, the hard part would be providing good quality images that clients would be happy with. I think the idea of having a photography business could run its course once reality sinks in for your friend.

Traveler, having been a teacher I think that people can often learn better if _they _do the work themselves, maybe next time let the friend do the editing hands on with you offering suggestions or guidance - let him 'drive' while you give the directions - he might develop a better understanding of what he's doing and you'll know he did the work on his photos himself (even with some help from a friend).


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 12, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > She joined the 50 buck Craig's List fauxtograhers who take work from real shooters.
> ...


Did not intend to open a debate with "the Real McCoy's" here. Not hi jacking the OP thread. Settle down ya all...


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## Steve5D (Apr 12, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...



If you didn't want to discuss it, what was the point in saying it?

If you're going to talk about "fauxtographers", then lets talk about "the Real McCoys", too. Hell, you can't have one without the other, so why your reluctance to discuss your comment?


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## texkam (Apr 12, 2013)

> Did not intend to open a debate


No worries. It's not up for debate. Trust me, you really are NOT my competition.


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## texkam (Apr 12, 2013)

> I would like to talk to her about this, but I don't know how to nicely say that she shouldn't be trying to pass herself off as a professional when she clearly is not.


You could always ask her for her "professional" help with your questions about taxes, contracts, etc. "How do you handle these things, as a successful business person?" "Could you give me some guidance in this area?"


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## BoRyan (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm going to piggyback. None of these issues that you've brought up affect you in he slightest. Do you REALLY value the friendship? Or is it a surfacey, everyone talks about everyone behind their backs when they get up to go to the restroom "friendship"? If it's one of those, than do whatever you want because we all know those don't last very long, anyways. I'm halfway kidding, but not really. 

If you really value the friendship, encourage her, and support her. THAT will do more to "ensure she doesn't get hurt" than telling her she's going to fail, in an ever so polite, albeit passive aggressive way. I mean, you can't really tell someone they suck in a "nice" way. 

I'm an entrepreneur. I cannot tell you how many times I have failed. Countless. The people who are still around? Those who knew I'd fail, but supported me anyways. Those who were left behind? The ones who had "my best interest" in mind, and "told me so" all the way down as I failed.


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 12, 2013)

texkam said:


> > Did not intend to open a debate
> 
> 
> No worries. It's not up for debate. Trust me, you really are NOT my competition.


*texkam you putting on gloves? *​


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 12, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...


My comment of course is tongue firmly placed in the cheek, but your ego has taken offense as I am NOT on your shooter levels of professionalism.  I am not in your pay grade...we all know this.

Who the hell are you to say I am not much of a photographer? SteveD my cheek. 

1st one with a photo pass to say Pearl Jam in Chicago in July has the bigger Lens


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## IByte (Apr 12, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> I don't want to see her get herself into trouble and get stuck in a jam.  She's a friend I've known for some time and I don't want to see a friend get caught up in something nasty.
> 
> You make a fair point about the taxes, I just wanted to point out that she hadn't tried to seek out any legal counsel.
> I've been shooting for about 3 years now, so I have some experience and have done a few critiques as well.  Thank you for the advice on the critique session, I didn't even think of that.



Some people needs to learn the hard way.  Stay as friends and make sure she doesn't drag you down with her.


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## CMfromIL (Apr 12, 2013)

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If her product is bad, the results will be known in short order from her clients.  You can't save the world from 1 bad photographer.  No different than trying to chase down every shady tree mechanic, back yard carpenter, handy man plumber, or any number of novices doing work that professionals also do.

If she gets in trouble with the tax man, that's on her not you.  If she has clients that are pissed off because she f-uped their wedding, that's on them for not carefully reviewing her portfolio.

Now if she were directly asking you for upcoming clients, then poaching them using her 'lower prices' then we have something to talk about.  Otherwise, I wouldn't let it worry you.


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## IByte (Apr 12, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> 2WheelPhoto said:
> 
> 
> > bestbuy kit and everyone's a pro
> ...



I even have a monolight, does that count?


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## IByte (Apr 12, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I have a good friend who really wants to be a good photographer but just can't seem to get it all together; I have been helping/tutoring him with post-processing. He comes over my house and looks over my shoulder while I take an image of his and analyze it, then do all the edits to the finish. Then he'll try the same process.
> Last Monday we worked on two color images and and another that I converted to B&W.
> I can say honestly that the difference before and after for each of the images was quite marked.
> I do everything in separate layers and label them so he can use them as a 'tutorial.'
> ...




With quiet pride.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 12, 2013)

Derrel said:


> WHAT??? Nobody has popped any popcorn? And the movie's already half over! What is WRONG with you people!!!!!  ;-)



For you -


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## TATTRAT (Apr 12, 2013)




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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 12, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^NICE!


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## CandySvoboda (Apr 12, 2013)

Wow! I didn't know I was gonna start a four page thread!  

Totally off topic, this question is for 2WheelPhoto:  I see you are in Tampa.  How do you like it?  I'm going to be moving there in late August.


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## jake337 (Apr 12, 2013)

I would nicely say "You shouldn't be charging for photos yet".  But the reasoning behind your opinion is what is important.  Explain to your friend that if they hold off on charging, study and work on their craft, and do much more preparing on the business end of photography that they will be better off in the long run.  By that I mean they will be able to charge more for what they do and sustain a profitable business.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 12, 2013)

CandySvoboda said:


> Wow! I didn't know I was gonna start a four page thread!
> 
> Totally off topic, this question is for 2WheelPhoto:  I see you are in Tampa.  How do you like it?  I'm going to be moving there in late August.



Luvn' it!  If you want to hang out with some folks interested in photography or fast bikes, I hang out with both crowds look me up


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## kathyt (Apr 12, 2013)

2WheelPhoto said:


> CandySvoboda said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! I didn't know I was gonna start a four page thread!
> ...



2wheel also loves pocket wizards.


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## kathyt (Apr 12, 2013)

I would send your friend a copy of all 4 pages of this thread.


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## Steve5D (Apr 12, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...



Are you losing gigs to $50.00 shooters? If so, then you need to up your game. Period. 

If you're not, you're not one of the people I was talking about.

My ego is fine. I don't lose gigs to people who charge $50.00, but it's not necessarily because they're not my competition, but because I'm not theirs. They don't compete with me on price, expertise, experience; anything. I don't worry about them an iota, and they realize it's a fool's errand for them to worry about me...


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## rexbobcat (Apr 12, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



But what about other factors other than photography. I know it might sound ridiculous, but in this area a mediocre family/child photographer can easily become very successful.

That's because down here people are more focuses on other people because there is nothing better to do, and not so much the skill that the person has.

What I mean is that a below average photographer who is female, mid-thirties, charges less, and has kids will be much more successful then a single man in his twenties who is an incredible photographer but charges more.

That's just a phenomena I've noticed in this area. I don't know if it's as much like this in other places, but sometimes the factors that determine which photographer someone goes to is out of the photographer's control.

...In my opinion.


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## Steve5D (Apr 12, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...



Then it would seem as though the better photographer needs to either up his game, and relocate, or get into another line of work.

A lot of people here like to "blame" the Craig's List crowd for stealing gigs from "pros". What you've described speaks _solely _to the prevailing economics. Answer this: If the cheap photographer isn't there, does the expensive guy soak up all of that business, or do some people simply not hire a photographer? If not, then the absence of a cheap photographer isn't what's impacting the loss of business for the pro...


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## Derrel (Apr 12, 2013)

sm4him said:
			
		

> SNIP>>>I've reached the point in my life where I am getting better and better at that whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,_ and wisdom to know the difference" _thing.



That, to the tenth power. Uh-huh. THAT!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 12, 2013)

^^^^there with you two


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## myvinyl333 (Apr 12, 2013)

Honestly, who cares? Let her do what she wants and charge what she wants. It is supply and demand.


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## manaheim (Apr 12, 2013)

Five pages of this.... Really?

Don't we think everyone has probably said all that needs saying?


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 12, 2013)

post-ho'ing typically starts around page 2 or 3 of any thread


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## manicmike (Apr 12, 2013)

I like cheesecake.


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## tirediron (Apr 12, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Five pages of this.... Really?
> 
> Don't we think everyone has probably said all that needs saying?


There won't be a sixth!


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