# Your feedback



## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.

I started just taking photos of me and my fiance with my tripod and soon I had so many requests to take photos for everyone else.  I've always enjoyed photography and have additionally taken a few college classes on photography to learn more when I started being requested more.  (I'm actually a Speech Pathology major).  I live in a small town where there are SEVERAL photographers like myself.  

I shoot with a Nikon D3100 & kit lens.  I also do not own PS or Lightroom and typically just edit with the iphoto settings since I'm just getting started. I also shoot in auto mode as I have no idea how to shoot manual.  Along with that, I did want to ask if any photographers in Central IL offer mentoring classes so that I can learn more on manual mode & shooting??!  

My website is:
Byerly Photography**Devotion to my clients & love for photography - Welcome!
and it is a free host. 

My pricing/package inclusion is included on my website if you'd like to critique that as well. I do not depend on the money from photography to live on which is why it may seem like I don't charge a lot. I offer a CD & print release simply because it's easier at the moment and I have no idea of a professional printer to use.

I don't consider myself specialized in anything and would eventually like to specialize in either weddings or maternity. I am a Speech Path major but the more I photograph, the more I hope and dream of sometime owning a shop or studio and making it more professional & fulltime.  

Thank you in advance!


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

Ok... I hope you don't get flamed. You seem like a very nice person who really has the drive to do this. Please know that the info below is not meant to be malicious. I am going to be 100% honest with you.

I'm going to be blunt: you're _really_ not ready for this. I checked out your galleries on your website; conceptually, you have some GREAT ideas. In terms of composition, exposure, and use of light, you need a lot of work. 

iPhoto is not ideal for post processing. Sure, you can come up with some funky edits, but it's not the proper tool. I don't believe it has RAW capabilities either. If you're going to be selling photos, you need to shoot in RAW and master all functions of your camera (including priority modes and manual).

From your website: 





> *Standard Photo Shoot Pricing: *
> 1 hour photo shoot with a print released CD of images-  $40.



This is no way to make a profit. You should take some business courses too. Most will tell you that photography is actually the least important part of a successful photography business. Knowing how to run a business and market it (or finding/paying someone else to) is much more important to your success. There are some crap photographers that could sell ice to an eskimo; there are also great photographers who go out of business quickly.

You've got a lot going on on that website. A lot of packages, different galleries...and words. Lots and lots of words. This should be streamlined. Let your work sell itself without so much word vomit.



> 7 hours of wedding day coverage and 1 print released CD with edited photos for $750



Again, no. Just drop the print release CD. This is a terrible idea for business. You have to decide where you want to make your profit: prints or hourly. You're not doing either. You have to figure in all the time your going to spend shooting, editing, traveling, etc. THis is known as cost of doing business. 

I'm going to leave it there for now. I hope you don't feel like I ripped you to pieces. The truth is there is a lot more than just taking "good" photos. I wish you the best of luck


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

uh oh


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> uh oh



I share your sentiments. 

I hope I didn't scare her away. Only trying to let her know what she's in for.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks, I appreciate honestly- that's what I want!

The demand came on so quickly I really had no idea where to start.  Do you suggest any additional readings/workshops/etc to learn more about comp/lighting etc? I've taken some college classes on it but nothing has really helped since I took the classes as a beginner rather than it being for a major/minor which is how they approach the classes.  

I'm not comfortable with my pricing either, I know it's dirt cheap but since I don't consider myself a professional at all (and there are a dime a dozen photographers in my area that charge 30-60 $ for the exact same thing I do so I just put myself in the middle of that) I have no idea what to charge and since I'm not depending on this for money to live on, I don't charge a lot.  My camera and everything is paid for so there's not anything I have to put my photography money towards.  I've taken business classes as it used to be by minor but I feel like photography is on a different level.  I don't have a studio, expensive equipment, website, marketing expenses etc to be paid for so am at a loss on how to price.  

I don't shoot raw either since I know I don't have the editing systems to support it.  It's all jpeg & auto for me so far.  

Thanks for being honest- any tips on how to actually improve or change things would be great, also!


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with dreaming of becoming a photographer, but much like becoming a rock star it isn't as easy as it seems. Honestly this is my suggestion to everyone about to cross this path, is this something you're ready to become extremely dedicated to or are you already down a different path? Are you only interested because of the fun it entails? 

You can always switch paths, but it is difficult. 

It seems like you are just honestly interested in photography and happen to be in a situation where there are few professionals in your area charging rates that are acceptable to the masses; or maybe the people you know just want something cheap instead of professional. Either way, I like to think of this situation as a local rock band. You know the group! They don't charge much, they sell hand made CDs, make their own shirts, etc. They have lots of people that love them, but they aren't just rockers. They also have day jobs.

This seems more like your situation than what jownsphoto is bringing up. Yes one day it will be great to have a little shop, but it takes a long time to build up to that and not every rock group makes it to fame.

With all of that said, it doesn't hurt to have a serious mindset behind what you're doing if you really want to become great. Act as if you are a professional, but understand that you will not be getting what a professional does. $40 is a bit too low, however I wouldn't charge so much that people don't want to use you either. Understand your limitations, don't take jobs that are high risk like weddings until you are absolutely positive you can handle (better yet, go ahead and follow around some wedding togs first).

Jowensphoto gave some great critiques, make sure to implement as much as you can but take it with a grain of salt. Keep in mind your level and where you intend to go because often many people forget not everyone plans on being a "professional."


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

Just another heads up this type of post is like dynamite in here. Soon as you say im a beginner and i'm charging things get ugly. I'm going to be as nice as I can beacause I myself am working towards the same goal. but here are a few things ive done diffrently and you should really think about. and these are in no particular order

1. euipment. your D3100 and kit lens are not going to be able to handle low light situations which you have allot with weddings and allot of other events. allot of churches dont let you use flash. what happens when you show up to do someones wedding and you realise you can't get the images because the church is dark and they won't allow flashes. you can tell them to postpone the money. you will likley have worhtless images and you will most likley wind up in court. and gaurenteed you will be sued for way more then they were going to pay you.

2. insurance. what happens when little timmy falls off the swing as you were taking photos? we live in a sue happy world and tons of people will find you at fault.

3. taxes, business liscence. Have you regestered with your state? do you have your tax id number? if the goverment finds out yoru being paid they will come after you for your money.

4. skills. can you deliver great photos in poor conditions (see #1) if you don't then you shouldn't take a job.

5. pricing. your pricing is so low your not making money, your likely losing money on every shoot. you need to figure out what your time is worth and price accordingly. at those prices your just undercutting those that are out there trying to do this for real.

6. well thats enough for now. that should get you thinking a bit.


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

Glad you came back, OP 

Understand Exposure by Bryan Peterson is often recomended. I've seen another called "Light: Science and Magic" or something recomended a few times lately.

Read your user manual. Then read it again. And again. You get the idea.

If you're not comfortable charging a fair amount of money, you shouldn't be charging period. I suggest doing some TFP/CD work to get practice. You can find a lot of willing models (albeit, flakey) on sites like ModelMayhem (though it sounds like you've got no shortage in that dept!).

Have you tried GIMP? It's a freeware program that, in comparison to other high end editing programs, is very capable and user friendly. There's also a free RAW converter plug in you can download.

As I was clicking through your gallery (specifically engagements), I noticed a lot of cliche editing. I think that's probably due to your limited tools. Selective color is usually frowned upon, because it's hardly ever used appropriately. It's one of those things that Moms love, so using it sparingly will definitely sell some photos for you. Using it often (and incorrectly) will just get you made fun of.

A little tool I suggest: a grey card. It's easy to use (but you're going to need to shoot RAW and use a converter in post processing, see above) and makes a world of difference. I did notice some images have color casts, a grey card will help you with this and proper exposure.

Again, I think you really have great ideas. I like the shot of the couples holding the paper hearts. It's cute, but not something everyone has done. The photo of the baby's toes peeking out from the bottom; not a traditional shot, but I do love it. The little girl with the football, while far from perfect technically, was truly a moment captured.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback. You might not like some it (internet forums are known for snark). Take it all with a grain of salt. You can learn a lot here!


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks again to everybody!  

I've really enjoyed photographing other people more than I thought I would which is why I only want to better myself and business.  I don't want to be stuck as the small town, cheap photographer that doesn't advance.  

I had so many inquiries that I had to limit myself on the sessions I do (as I stated in my website).  I've already booked weddings for next year which is why I'm really wanting to step my game up.  The photographer I hired to shoot our wedding has let me shadow her and second shoot but hasn't had much time for one on one mentoring.  When I do shoot weddings I rent lenses even though I don't actually own any and I have been experimenting more with PS in the university comp lab until I feel like I can actually feel comfortable purchasing it and knowing what to do on my own.  

I've definitely taken everybody's advice into consideration and have already changed a bit on my site- especially the excessive wording! 
I started charging just because I am still taking time shooting and editing that I felt  a little compensation was necessary.  There have been so many times (probably 7 out of 10 times) a client will give me $80 or $100 after a 1 hour photo shoot because they thought it was too cheap.  

Even if I am being ripped a new asshole, at least I know everyone is being honest and I can start improving my work!


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.
> 
> I started just taking photos of me and my fiance with my tripod and soon I had so many requests to take photos for everyone else.  I've always enjoyed photography and have additionally taken a few college classes on photography to learn more when I started being requested more.  (I'm actually a Speech Pathology major).  I live in a small town where there are SEVERAL photographers like myself.
> 
> ...



This is not intended to be rude in any way:
I do not think you should be charging for your work. For one it's an easy way to get sued if you mess up someones photos (example a wedding can't be redone). You may be a beginner and you may say so on your website, I don't know I didn't look, but if your advertising and charging then in the customers eyes you are a professional. That means that your work should be guaranteed and they will come out perfectly everytime. 

The fact that you shoot in auto is another indicator that you should not be charging. You don't have to shoot in manual but the A (aperture priority), S (shutter priority) or even P mode would at least give you some control over how your photos will turn out. As it is now your camera is controlling everything and it's basically a large point and shoot. You have absolutely no creative control over your exposures. 

When I first got my camera and was shooting in auto everyone oohed and aahhed over my pictures. I was even asked to shoot some weddings. Which is completely crazy. But I really liked photography so I did my research an learned everything about my camera. I'm still learning but I wouldn't dream of charging people for my work. 

If I were you, which I'm not and you don't have to listen to anything I saw, I would advertise some free, portfolio building shoots. Or just practice on friends and their families. If you need the extra money then sell them high quality prints and make a profit that way. Or accept donations if they are offered. There are a bunch of professional labs you can find online. 

And there are millions of MWAC (moms with a camera) who open up shop the day they buy their camera. They probably have husbands who support them financially so this is just for fun. Hold yourself to a higher standard. Practice your craft, learn all you can, learn how to edit, etc. and when your ready (probably in a couple years) open for business and charge what your worth - not what other dime a dozen photographers are charging. 

Understating Exposure is a decent book. It will teach you how to get out of auto. 

Www.cambridgeincolour.com has some great resources

Your manual (it might've come on a cd) is helpful and will help you learn your camera inside and out. 

Also, some faster/better glass (lens) will come in handy. Prime lenses are sharp and great in low light. Also really helpful when learning composition becAuse you actually have to move vs just zooming. 85mm is a great length for portraits. The 85mm f1.8g af-s lens is out or should be coming out soon and will be around 500.00. The 50mm af-s f1.8 is a great lens as well and is around 200.00. 

You have a lot of learning ahead of you - but it's fun and so worth it!


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

Actually this is polite, very polite for here so far lol. 


If you have had to cut back on the sessions your doing and having people give you $80-$100 then maybe you need to raise the price. That right there will likely slow down the foot traffice so you can take some time to step back, look up what you need to do to protect yourself and set yourself up properly.


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

Megan hit the nail on the head.

There's nothing wrong with having an end goal of opening a photography business, but it requires thorough honing of the craft. Don't be so hard on yourself that you expect to be able to shoot beautiful weddings right now. It's not fair to your clients. Get some more practice under your belt before you charge. Also, don't forget to study up on business.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

jowensphoto said:
			
		

> Megan hit the nail on the head.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with having an end goal of opening a photography business, but it requires thorough honing of the craft. Don't be so hard on yourself that you expect to be able to shoot beautiful weddings right now. It's not fair to your clients. Get some more practice under your belt before you charge. Also, don't forget to study up on business.



^^^ yes. Experience should be enough compensation since your so new at this. I think once you actually learn about photography and take the camera of auto you aren't going to want to attempt a wedding. There is so much to learn and practice. Photography isn't easy by any means. Auto makes it seem so because all you do is point and click with really no thought behind it. You need to learn about lighting and flash (not your pop-up). 

Also photographers have been sued because the wedding photos weren't that great. Weddings are big deals and they can't be redone. You should think about that before doing more weddings. It's a wedding - if you screw up the photos you could get sued, word would get around and there goes wedding photography and who knows what other business you would lose. Plus think about the bride and groom - do you really want all that responsibility on your shoulders when you arent confident and comfortable with your craft..


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

> I think once you actually learn about photography and take the camera of auto you aren't going to want to attempt a wedding.



This is a GREAT point. Stay in auto and you'll never learn anything, aside from basic composition. Auto is useful, but does not a pro photographer make.

Here's what I suggest: take some photos in auto. Using the knowledge you get from this forum, google, and suggested resources to figure out what is wrong with the photos. Check out the settings from the auto photos then adjust in manual to get it exactly how you want it.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

jowensphoto said:
			
		

> This is a GREAT point. Stay in auto and you'll never learn anything, aside from basic composition. Auto is useful, but does not a pro photographer make.
> 
> Here's what I suggest: take some photos in auto. Using the knowledge you get from this forum, google, and suggested resources to figure out what is wrong with the photos. Check out the settings from the auto photos then adjust in manual to get it exactly how you want it.



Jowensphoto: Seems like me and you are having our own discussion!

Clickitupanotch.com is a great blog for photographers. The blogger has a whole section on how to shoot manual. It explains it fairly simply and is an excellent resource. You don't have to shoot manual - A and S modes are useful as well but it does help to understand everything. 

Things to look up:
Rules of composition
Exposure triangle - aperture, shutter speed and ISO and how they work together
Metering and metering modes - I believe you have spot, partial and matrix/evaluative in your camera 
Find your meter. Put the camera on M and point it at something. Look at the LCD and/or thru viewfinder. It will look something like this
-......0......+. With some lines under it. Your meter will help you determine exposure but it takes some knowledge and practice because metering to 0 all the time won't give you the best exposure
Depth of field
Use the manual to look up the different focusing modes and what they are used for
White balance


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## Derrel (May 2, 2012)

I would suggest that you read some books on photography. Start at the closest library, and read and study as many books as you can. You desperately need a book on professional posing techniques. Good luck, and keep at it!


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

> Jowensphoto: Seems like me and you are having our own discussion!



LOL I'm backing up your good points in hopes that the OP realizes the importance!


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## pgriz (May 2, 2012)

And since we're being nice, let's review a good thread on getting into business:  http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/general-shop-talk/266193-noobs-guide-starting-business.html

If we're talking weddings, then there are a few more:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/professional-gallery/20069-hot-tips-wedding-photography.html
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/.../268183-introduce-me-wedding-photography.html

There's actually a lot of discussion on this topic.  Put "wedding" into the search string, and start reading.

The skill set (and required equipment) to do good wedding photography without getting into three-letter acronyms, requires a serious investment of time and money.  And experience, as has been stated by previous posters.  Perhaps looking up some true wedding professionals and seeing their level of work will give you an idea of how long the road to "Professional Wedding Photographer" really is, and where you are on it.  If you are feeling really ambitious, get yourself set up as a second shooter to a well-respected and seasoned pro, and learn as much as you can.  Doing good wedding photography is a bit like herding cats (big ones), while juggling running chainsaws.  Probably can be done.  Not pretty when things go wrong.


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## 2WheelPhoto (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:


> Hi all, I'm obviously a *beginner photographer* just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.
> 
> I started just taking photos of me and my fiance with my tripod and soon I had so many requests to take photos for everyone else.  I've always enjoyed photography and have additionally taken a few college classes on photography to learn more when I started being requested more.  (I'm actually a Speech Pathology major).  I live in a small town where there are SEVERAL photographers like myself.
> 
> ...


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks!  I've done a lot of reading but nothing has 'clicked' for the manual use but I know to really improve I have to get out of auto mode!

I really, really do appreciate all the feedback and tips!!


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

The way learning manual has clicked for me was to just switch the camera to manual. and use it there, all the time. If my pics weren't coming out right i'd work with and adjust the camera till I found the right spot. First few months using it that way I felt awkward, like I didn't know what I was doing and I felt like I was behind where I was. But after a few months of using it that way I got to the point where I forgot it was even using it that way, I was just use to adjusting the setting how I wanted and I realised I was ready to move on to the next thing.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

"You desperately need a book on professional posing techniques."

I did a quick google search and am not sure what you mean by that or the literature available.
Also, I just signed into this site for the first time today and have no idea how to repost the quotes or the meaning of some of the icons.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks! That's what I've been working on-  I was hoping the classes I took would have helped but they were geared more for people who are actual photography majors so I was pretty much just on my own.  I find everytime I try manual mode every single picture is just blurry so I'll keep trying to adjust to find the right settings1


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

Sit at home and practice. hit the library. I was out of work for 5 months and I spent half my time going to and from the library reading as much as possible. sometimes it takes time for things to sink into my brain so I read as much as i can, even if its redundant. so that it will sink in.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> "You desperately need a book on professional posing techniques."
> 
> I did a quick google search and am not sure what you mean by that or the literature available.
> Also, I just signed into this site for the first time today and have no idea how to repost the quotes or the meaning of some of the icons.



He means that you need to learn how to pose people. There are tons of books about posing


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## 2WheelPhoto (May 2, 2012)

What do your clients truly expect for the prices you list on your web page


Pricing & Packages - Byerly Photography *Devotion to my clients & love for photography


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:


> Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.



Don't you see anythingETHICALLY WRONG in putting BEGINNER and BUSINESS together in the same sentence? Are your "clients" supposed to pay you to learn on the job? You do not even have decent equipment, much less the knowledge to call yourself a PROFESSIONAL!

Iphoto? Maybe you should try PIKNIK or INSTAGRAM! lol!


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> alb1113 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.
> ...



Example: Would you pay a "beginner" mechanic to overhaul your transmission? Hell no. I'd let them change my oil at most (and only because I'd supervise and know how to do it).


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> alb1113 said:
> 
> 
> > Are your "clients" supposed to pay you to learn on the job?
> ...


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

shmne said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > alb1113 said:
> ...


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> By your philosophy above.. I guess Med Students should go into full practice.. but just charge less since they aren't Doctor's yet, right.. and still have lots to learn?
> 
> I want to be a Brain Surgeon.. please let me operate on you... I will give you a really good deal!



Do you realize how backwards your logic is? Please tell me how doctors and photographers have anything in common aside from being in the extremely large service industry? You're saying that just because tomatoes are fruits they must just be like apples. Yet they couldn't be any farther from the same. 

Your comparison is flawed, and extremely so.

**Edit**
Please explain to me how charging for photography hurts anyone? In fact, please explain to me the link you are bridging with something such as a mechanic, or a doctor, and photography. 

This is an art. Do you also tell painters not to sell their work? Do you know how many paintings that are from the beginning of a painter's career sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars?


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

While a bit far stretched being that this isn't exactly brain surgery, it is a valid point, In most fields and business  beginers are generally hired on by pros and trained onwhat to do until they have learned what is needed to not need supervision. or someone learns on there own until the point where they are qualified to do the job.


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> While a bit far stretched being that this isn't exactly brain surgery, it is a valid point, In most fields and business  beginers are generally *hired* on by pros and trained onwhat to do until they have learned what is needed to not need supervision. or someone learns on there own until the point where they are qualified to do the job.



They receive pay. This is my point. Every beginner gets paid, this is a fact. There is no reason photography should be any different, mechanics get paid as they learn as do doctors. This is an artistic field however and if someone wants to buy your art there is no reason they should not.

**Edit**
There are no reprecussions with photography as long as the student does not take on something they can not handle. This is something I've already mentioned. Artist are commissioned all the time, would you tell a fledgling mural painter not to paint for $40 even though they can easily accomplish what the shop owner wants? I feel like no one here has real experience in the art world -_- people get paid for work, regardless of being a beginner or being a pro. It is the matter of how much that changes.


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

shmne said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > By your philosophy above.. I guess Med Students should go into full practice.. but just charge less since they aren't Doctor's yet, right.. and still have lots to learn?
> ...



I disagree.. it is the whole "charging as a professional even though one lacks the knowledge to be a professional" point that you are missing! Intentionally, I suspect!

Clients  should not have to pay for the stupid mistakes made while learning! One  should have at least Basic professional level skills, before hanging  out a shingle! Being able to put a camera in AUTO, and hitting the  friggin shutter button does not constitute "Basic Professional Skills!"

Oh yea.. and all of the moronic NOOBs that go PRO.. those overexposed, harshly lit shots of babies with skin tones that look like they died... those will be worth BILLIONS someday! Sure! Not even a comparison.....


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

jowensphoto said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > alb1113 said:
> ...


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

Obsessed is really the only word I can use when it comes to me and photography. I just can't get enough of it. I've always loved taking photos and my photography initially consisted of me lugging a tripod around to capture great memories of me and my fiance wherever we were. I earned an Associate in Arts degree (currently persuing a Bachelor's Degree in education) and have taken several classes to learn how to use a camera as well as how to use editing software such as Photoshop.  I've also spent countless hours on my own reading, watching video tutorials, and experimenting with my camera and still learn new things everyday, with every shoot.  A giant thank you to my clients who have helped me and encouraged me with my photography! I strive to produce images that are fun, creative, unique, and that really capture the personality of my subjects.

To my brides and wedding clients:  I am a bride myself getting married in September so I know how important a great wedding photographer is.  We even changed our wedding date when the photographer we wanted was booked! I want my brides to know your wedding day photos will be absolutely gorgeous and capture the special, happy moments.  I want you to look at your photos years later and still feel the same happiness and excitement you felt on your wedding day. 



Where in this does the OP state that she's a beginner and/or that she uses her big fancy camera as a plain ole point and shoot? She is advertising herself as a professional so it's definitely false advertising. 

She also advertises weddings and shoots weddings. 

It's one thing to be an amateur photographer who is offering portfolio building prices and their clients know that they are still in the learning stages. But c'mon your basically saying that everybody who picks up a camera should charge. Average everyday people expect when they hire a professional photographer that they know what they are doing. Doesn't matter if the OP's prices are low she doesn't know the first thing about photography. Like I said before she needs to spend some time learning and practicing. I'm sure she has family and friends she can practice on. Every other profession a beginner needs to go to school, apprentice and learn their craft before they go out on their own. Only in photography it seems that people can pick up a camera and start charging for it.


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> SO if you pay me to be a BRAIN SURGEON.. then I am automatically a PROFESSIONAL BRAIN SURGEON, right????? By YOUR own logic!!



At this point you're literally just trolling and are not even making sense anymore. If you have any opinions based in the real world, I'd love to hear them. Otherwise, go back in your lolcave.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

You don't advertise yourself As a beginner. Your website makes it seem like your a professional an have been studying and learning your craft for a long time. 

That's not quite true that all beginners in every profession get paid. For one lawyers do get paid in the beginning but they go to school for it and have the knowledge. Cosmetologists are considered artists and they go to school, then they apprentice - which they might get paid for but they already have some knowledge and skill.


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

shmne said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > While a bit far stretched being that this isn't exactly brain surgery, it is a valid point, In most fields and business beginers are generally *hired* on by pros and trained onwhat to do until they have learned what is needed to not need supervision. or someone learns on there own until the point where they are qualified to do the job.
> ...




yes they are paid. paid by there employer who takes on the risk. the poster here is assuming all risk herself as she has allready booked weddings without understanding the basics such as manual control of her camera and even having the proper gear. that to me is just majorly scary and the wrong way to go into business. this doesnt even go into what mMTvision post about her website coming off as her being a professional and knowing how to properly use her camera.


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## DiskoJoe (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:


> Thanks again to everybody!
> 
> I've really enjoyed photographing other people more than I thought I would which is why I only want to better myself and business.  I don't want to be stuck as the small town, cheap photographer that doesn't advance.
> 
> ...



Get better web design. You have a cheap looking standard layout. A good web presence is an easy way to look much more professional then you are. But remember to focus on the photography and not selling yourself as a photographer.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

I think when I say _*"still learn new things everyday, with every shoot"*_  it doesn't scream I'm the best featured photog ever and every photo will be flawless. I also have a lot of examples of my work so everyone will know my style and how I shoot.  They're not going to be surprised when they get their CD.  I always meet with wedding clients and every client wants to see more work before we book so I have albums that feature the weddings I've done from beginning to end and I always offer references if requested.   I'm certainly not hiding anything on my site including prices and have a lot of 'models' in each category.  I have a 2 year degree only because I wanted to learn more once my photography started picking up.  Maybe I didn't make it clear- I go to a 4 year university for education/speech path. I got a 2 year degree from a jr college the same time I've attended my university when I started taking classes surrounding photography. It's not my major or minor at all. I took so many classes on learning about the actual camera and classes only for editing that I ended up having so many classes to qualify for a degree.  I have that stated on my site but I don't think I said so on here.  I don't think I clarified that before so when you say that about the lawyers and cosmetologists, I've technically gone to school for it as well to have an assoc in arts degree.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> I think when I say "still learn new things everyday, with every shoot"  it doesn't scream I'm the best featured photog ever and every photo will be flawless. I also have a lot of examples of my work so everyone will know my style and how I shoot.  They're not going to be surprised when they get their CD.  I always meet with wedding clients and every client wants to see more work before we book so I have albums that feature the weddings I've done from beginning to end and I always offer references if requested.   I'm certainly not hiding anything on my site including prices and have a lot of 'models' in each category.  I have a 2 year degree only because I wanted to learn more once my photography started picking up.  Maybe I didn't make it clear- I go to a 4 year university for education/speech path. I got a 2 year degree from a jr college the same time I've attended my university when I started taking classes surrounding photography. It's not my major or minor at all. I took so many classes on learning about the actual camera and classes only for editing that I ended up having so many classes to qualify for a degree.  I have that stated on my site but I don't think I said so on here.  I don't think I clarified that before so when you say that about the lawyers and cosmetologists, I've technically gone to school for it as well to have an assoc in arts degree.



Well I've taken 1 intro photography class and they taught you about the exposure triangle and how to shoot in something other than auto. So I'm a liked confused now - if you have a 2 yr degree in photography then wouldn't you know why your photos were blurry and how to fix it when you shot in manual?? So if you really went to school for photography then you need to get your money back.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer
> .  I've always enjoyed photography and have additionally taken a few college classes on photography to learn more when I started being requested more.  (I'm actually a Speech Pathology major).  I live in a small town where there are SEVERAL photographers like myself.
> 
> I also shoot in auto mode as I have no idea how to shoot manual.  ce!



Taken a few college courses on photography now equates to a AA degree in photography????


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

Megan is right on! If you can't figure out the simple stuff.... what are you going to do, shoot weddings in AUTO mode? You obviously aren't shooting in manual.. based on your own post!


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## shmne (May 2, 2012)

Stop nitpicking already. I was making a statement that beginners should be paid, and you're absolutely right about beginners being paid in every single profession. I am not here claiming I know about every single profession in the entire world. However in the vast majority of situations they do, and they are not always hired on by employers taking on the risk. 

I am here to say that photography is NOT like a doctor.
I am here to say that photography is NOT like cosmetology. (This is an art, however it is not operated the same as how the other more traditional arts are.)
I am certainly here to say that photography is an art as well as a craft, and like most arts / crafts you get paid for commissioned work. 

Painters, sculptors, illustrators, and photographers all get paid in the beginning for work. This is not a profession where risk or damage is involved except for certain situations. I was not implying by any means that the OP went about anything properly. I was instead saying that the majority of posters on here were going about their advice on payment improperly. This is also why I stated that weddings, events, and other one time situations that can not be redone are not beginner's territory. I simply stated that it is wrong to tell a beginner not to charge, regardless of how fresh they are. If people are willing to pay, then you should be willing to charge. Yes, that even means if today is the first time you've picked up a camera. If someone wants to buy your work, you should not be giving it away for free.

I don't think I can make this any more clear. If you all want to continue cheapening the photography industry please go ahead, however I will continue to educate people properly on pricing plans as well as how to charge as you advance through your career. You should never mislead a client, and should always let them see exactly how advanced you are. However as long as you don't take on assignments that are not too large for yourself (again, specifically one time events where you can be legally attacked) then there will be no issue.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

I stated in posts back I've paid for classes, tried manual mode and it hasnt clicked which is why I was asking for additional literature/sites/etc.  
My 2 yr degree (I obtained it in 1 year) is technically called an 'Associate of Arts' degree which I only obtained because of the photog classes I took. I never started with the intention of photography nor did I at first get this degree with plans to transfer and study photography. I took those classes to learn about photography on the side while still studying and taking classes for my major/minor.   I've been at a 4 year university studying education & pathology with no relation or major.minor declaration of photography.  Hopefully that makes sense & clears it up.  Most people think I started out to get an assoc degree to transfer for a bach but NO.

When I shoot weddings I do have a second shooter that also get's paid $100 and can use the photos in their portfolio (and a contract for them).  I also typically rent lenses for weddings until I'm comfortable to actually buy them.  

Our personal wedding photographer is $8,000 so I obviously know the difference of levels.  I book weddings because people need and want their wedding documented.  Am I going to provide them with Jasmine Star quality photos?  Nope.  Will they be better than Aunt Jean's photos?  Yep.  Do I spend a lot of money on albums, prints, dvds etc- nope so I don't need to pass that cost on.


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## tirediron (May 2, 2012)

OP: You have a LOT to learn about about the *business* of being a photographer, and I think a way to go on your technical and artistic skills behind the camera. I would strongly suggest that you re-word your website to make it VERY clear to potential clients what your level of skill is. There is nothing wrong with being ambitious and going for the brass ring from the start, but it is grossly unfair to potential clients if they aren't aware that you are still in the early stages of your career. 

Even better:  haul down your shingle for a while and find yourself a job as a second/third shooter with a skilled photographer, and learn both the business and skills from that person. The $700 wedding with the $100 second-shooter puts your right, smack in the middle of the Craig's List bottom-dwellers.

*Everyone else: Let's lay of the discussions about doctors, rocket-surgery, etc, mmmmmmmkay? Thanks!*


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> I stated in posts back I've paid for classes, tried manual mode and it hasnt clicked which is why I was asking for additional literature/sites/etc.
> My 2 yr degree (I obtained it in 1 year) is technically called an 'Associate of Arts' degree which I only obtained because of the photog classes I took. I never started with the intention of photography nor did I at first get this degree with plans to transfer and study photography. I took those classes to learn about photography on the side while still studying and taking classes for my major/minor.   I've been at a 4 year university studying education & pathology with no relation or major.minor declaration of photography.  Hopefully that makes sense & clears it up.  Most people think I started out to get an assoc degree to transfer for a bach but NO.
> 
> When I shoot weddings I do have a second shooter that also get's paid $100 and can use the photos in their portfolio (and a contract for them).  I also typically rent lenses for weddings until I'm comfortable to actually buy them.
> ...



If you took enough photography classes that you had enough credits for an AA degree then you should still get your money back since you obviously didn't learn anything useful.  Granted not all the classes for that degree could've been photography - you have to take general education classes as well - you should still know way more then you do. I took 1 class and probably learned more then you did in all your classes. 

I'm not saying your a bad photographer. Some of your photos are cute but all you hVe control over is composition. Your photos could probably be amazing if you actually knew what you were doing. It's just sad that you are so obsessed with photography that you couldn't take the time to actually learn about it. 

An answer to your OP - learn about photography. I gave you a list earlier. Good luck!


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## IByte (May 2, 2012)

shmne said:
			
		

> I don't think I can make this any more clear. If you all want to continue cheapening the photography industry please go ahead, however I will continue to educate people properly on pricing plans as well as how to charge as you advance through your career. You should never mislead a client, and should always let them see exactly how advanced you are. However as long as you don't take on assignments that are not too large for yourself (again, specifically one time events where you can be legally attacked) then there will be no issue.



Point well taken, but to my understanding a lot of beginners basically stay beginners never advance in their careers and thereby cheaping the profession.  That means when prices are "cheap" it hurts the true professionals, and the clients in general think the photographer is price gouging them(client).  I would while building up your business become an apprentice and learn more ins and out of this field.  If this is not clear excuse me it's pint night .


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## imagemaker46 (May 2, 2012)

She's obviously ready to be a professional photographer, she added photographer after her name....isn't that all it takes these days?

This is exactly what drives professional photographers nuts, amateurs jumping into the game before having the experience or the skills, and then charging peanuts for work.


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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

I did have gen classes with it that transferred since I had completed them at my university.  I just wanted to clarify it's not a degree in photography and I'm not advertising that. 

I think having excess work on my website lets clients know what to expect and therefore I'm not hiding anything.  I feel like I have to many photos cycling through- I tried not to overwhelm clients with so many photos on just a website but wanted to give a clear feel as to what I can do and have done.  Every single piece on the site is mine so I'm not misleading anyone.  

I do appreciate all the additional information as that's what I was looking for and offered my work as a basis of what I can do and where to start from.

Thanks!


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## IByte (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:
			
		

> I did have gen classes with it that transferred since I had completed them at my university.  I just wanted to clarify it's not a degree in photography and I'm not advertising that.
> 
> I think having excess work on my website lets clients know what to expect and therefore I'm not hiding anything.  I feel like I have to many photos cycling through- I tried not to overwhelm clients with so many photos on just a website but wanted to give a clear feel as to what I can do and have done.  Every single piece on the site is mine so I'm not misleading anyone.
> 
> ...



I will say this since you are charging, I would really reinvest in your business, not going to stress contracts and taxes, insurance etc.  But cover your rear end and good luck.


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

HIPPOing to comment.

There _are_ jobs beginners aren't paid to do: internships.


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## jowensphoto (May 2, 2012)

tirediron said:


> *Everyone else: Let's lay of the discussions about doctors, rocket-surgery, etc, mmmmmmmkay? Thanks!*



This is signature worthy! May I?


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## imagemaker46 (May 2, 2012)

No you're not misleading anyone, you are just charging way too little, and way too much for your skills.  I assume that you have a business licence, declare all the money on your income taxes, you know all the things professionals are required to do.  Taking some courses, reading some books and watching some videos, isn't experience, it isn't learning a skill. You have already said you are a beginner, and yet you have figured you are good enough to be a professional.  It would be interesting to know what all the other professional photographers that work in your area think about losing business to a beginner that undercuts and helps bring the photo market down. 

Being passionate about photography doesn't instantly make you or anyone else a professional photographer.


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## DScience (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> alb1113 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, I'm obviously a beginner photographer just looking for any advice/feedback on how to better my work & business.
> ...



Oh come on man...the thread was going so nice and you just HAD to come in and show your dominance. Wow, just wow.


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## DScience (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Oh yea.. and all of the moronic NOOBs that go PRO.. those overexposed, harshly lit shots of babies with skin tones that look like they died... those will be worth BILLIONS someday! Sure! Not even a comparison.....



Like this: hannah | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## pgriz (May 2, 2012)

To the OP:  we have these kind of conversations on TPF rather often.  here's another one that we had some time ago:  http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photography-beginners-forum/274704-wedding-photography-pro.html

In it, I mentioned that there would be certain things I would expect a wedding photographer to know/have.  I'll quote that section below:  

"  _If you were to be a wedding photographer, I would expect the following:_
_ Equipment suitable to the task.  That means two cameras with enough low-light performance to allow good quality images without using flash.  Lenses that are good in low light.  Flashes that are powerful enough to light up a large room, if necessary.  Backdrops and suitable modifiers for shooting formals.  Computer equipment and processing software to allow proper post-processing.  You can work with less-than-adequate equipment, but youre making things more difficult than they have to be, and you have less margin of errof._
_Knowledge and skills to use the above, under pressure.  Also needed, cat herding skills, the unflappability of Jeeves the butler, and the cool competence of Lara Croft.  Martial art knowledge may be helpful, but generally is not necessary._
_Directorial ability, both for your second shooters, and for the wedding party.  If you doubt that, try telling Mamazilla that she has to step out of the picture  maybe the martial arts training will be necessary after all._
_Appropriate legal paperwork.  That includes the contracts between you and all parties involved, liability and general insurance, tax numbers, business registration numbers where applicable.  Do you have release forms so that you can use the incredible images for your advertising?  Keep in mind that Mr. Murphy (of anything that can go wrong, will fame) is particularly fond of people without CYA paperwork.  What happens if Mamazilla trips over your camera bag and breaks her leg AND loses the one-of-a-kind diamond pendant that she took out of the safety box just for this occasion?  Or the flower girl decided that the stand supporting the backdrop is a really neat shinning pole?_
_A business and marketing plan (Keith gave some good links) that outlines how YOUR business/niche will be profitable despite all the competition, and how you will maintain a steady stream of revenue generating prospects and clients.  What do you do during periods when few wedding happen?  How do you handle TOO much business?_
_Business management and accounting software.  Somehow, you need to keep track of all the commitments you are making, all the prospects you are meeting or hoping to meet, all the costs that you are incurring, all the legal obligations that you need to discharge on time (sales tax remittances, annual reports, etc.), and to stay on top of where each prospect is in the sales cycle.  Post-it notes dont cut it.  Good business people manage the selling process and move it along in a planned way.  Poor business people improvise and wait for their prospects to call._
_Marketing tools.  At a minimum thats a business card, but obviously your prospects need to see samples of your work to assess your abilities.  Print portfolio?  Laptop presentation?  Web-based portfolio?  Advertising in your local papers?  Giant billboard on the main highway?  How will people know that you exist?  And then, how will you convince them that they should entrust their precious moments to you?  A sweet personality and mouthwash only go so far._
_Trade contacts.  You are not an island.  You need backup.  Where do you get more equipment if you need it temporarily?  Who takes care of your printing?  Wedding book?  Who supports you from a legal, accounting, tax, and technical points of view?  Do you know who is available to you as a second shooter when you need them?  Do you have access to a web-designer?  A graphics designer?  A search-engine optimizer?  And when things are going nuts, do you have a friend/spouse/partner/pet that can calm you down and get you centered again?  Remember, Murphy has lots of relatives.  Whos on your army to fight them off?_
_Financing resources.  Equipment costs money.  Paperwork costs money.  Developing marketing materials costs money.  Transport costs money.  The old saying is that it takes money to make money.  Meaning, youve got to invest before you can start.  A good business plan addresses these issues and works out how much capital is invested, where it comes from, and over which timeframe you will develop the revenues.  Financing your business with credit cards is an expensive and risky way to do this. Love money is the traditional way many small businesses get off the ground.  But at a certain point, that money has to be paid back, or the love turns sour._
_Lots of people get into business.  Very few manage to stay in it over the long term, profitably.  To be an exception, you need to be doing a lot of things well.  Its a given that you should be good at your craft.  But being successful in business means taking care of business, and typically, the craft portion is only a small part (20% more or less) of that."

_How much of the above list do you have?  Shooting once-in-a-lifetime moments in dark places without disrupting everything requires both good equipment and good skills.  Delivering a full package of memories, properly edited and post-processed, again requires equipment, software, and skills.  You may in fact have the talent.  But you need to work at getting the technical skills so that you can deliver on the promises you make.


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## HughGuessWho (May 2, 2012)

DScience said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yea.. and all of the moronic NOOBs that go PRO.. those overexposed, harshly lit *shots of babies with skin tones that look like they died*... those will be worth BILLIONS someday! Sure! Not even a comparison.....
> ...



"*By CGipson Photography*" So based on an earlier example, name "followed by photography" is all it takes to be a professional.


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## MTVision (May 2, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:
			
		

> "By CGipson Photography" So based on an earlier example, name "followed by photography" is all it takes to be a professional.



And you just helped it along. Never fails right?


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## HughGuessWho (May 2, 2012)

I guess I did. I just have a very difficult time with the Holier than Thou attitude from some that have a hard time grasping the concept of a forum.


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> DScience said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



hahaha... lets see I started shooting in 1966! First DSLR in 1976 (K1000). In 1984, after having people bug me for years about it... I went PRO with a total of 18 years of experience (eight years with a DSLR!) I had been second shooting weddings for about five years... and had been working labs off and on since High School! I no longer shoot professionally.. although I do have a business license.. and about $20,000 worth of gear!

Little bit of difference between me having CGIPSON PHOTOGRAPHY and some NOOB that has very little to no experience (self admitted) claiming to be a PRO!

So where is the HYPOCRISY?


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## HughGuessWho (May 2, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > DScience said:
> ...



Typical comment. You have absolutely no idea what my experience is, what I have for equipment or anything about me, yet you can make an intelligent decision about me and my ability. Wow, you are really good. I am impressed.


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## rub (May 2, 2012)

OP - one person nailed it - you are charging too much and too little.

When you charge the prices you do, you undercut the industry you love and want to be a part of.  Its bad business practice, and will hurt you in the end.
When you charge the prices you do, without having knowledge, gear, software, or idea about the business, you are cheating your clients.  

Stop charging, get some experience (dont take the money as a wedding photographer, instead offer your services for free for experience so they can hire someone else) and if they love your work so much they tip you, accept it.

You stated you dont need the money, so don't take it till you are ready.

Read your manual, 2nd for anyone you can, read your manual, practice practice practice, read your manual, and BUST YOUR ASS.  In 3.5 years I went from where you are now to owning a studio.  And the one of the biggest mistakes I made was charging when I wasnt ready.  

Open your business when you can come in and knock peoples socks off.  Not only will you be respected by your collegues, but you will demand the attention (and $$'s) of clients - not just get those people who are too cheap to hire a professional.


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > HughGuessWho said:
> ...



Just basing that on some of the questions you have asked.. and some of the comments you have made!


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## pgriz (May 2, 2012)

Guys...  sigh.  this (internet behaviour) does not reflect well on you.  You know that.  So...


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## HughGuessWho (May 2, 2012)

Sorry my friend, but you are the master of attacking people. I didn&#8217;t attack you at all, only the attitude demonstrated. This was a very constructive conversation directed towards someone who was asking for advice, but then it just had to become nasty and insulting, as always. The obvious difference between you and I is that I don&#8217;t have to degrade and attack others just to pump up my own ego. You can attack me all you want as that will not affect me in any way. But why won&#8217;t you lighten up just a bit on beginners, even if they try to make a buck or two. Does it really affect you that much?


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## cgipson1 (May 2, 2012)

HughGuessWho said:


> Sorry my friend, but you are the master of attacking people. I didn&#8217;t attack you at all, only the attitude demonstrated. This was a very constructive conversation directed towards someone who was asking for advice, but then it just had to become nasty and insulting, as always. The obvious difference between you and I is that I don&#8217;t have to degrade and attack others just to pump up my own ego. You can attack me all you want as that will not affect me in any way. But why won&#8217;t you lighten up just a bit on beginners, even if they try to make a buck or two. Does it really affect you that much?



I don't consider you worth my time.. so why would I bother attacking you? I usually just ignore you, as you hardly every say anything worth listening too!! As matter of fact.. you are going on the IGNORE list! You should just ignore me too...


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## IByte (May 2, 2012)

'Beer 2, and munching on some wings'


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## SCraig (May 2, 2012)

alb1113 said:


> There's a reason I posted this on this beginner site: *I am a beginner (where did I say professional?!)* and everybody starts somewhere.  I know I do want to improve which is why I did ask for advice.  *I have contracts with local businesses (hotels and the wedding supply co in town) who have hired me to shoot the events they host, I have weddings booked more than a year in advance, I'm on contract with my city to photograph certain events* and I have more than enough interest and paying clients to sit back and be comfortable with the way things are going but I know I can and want to improve which is why I was seeking advice after paying for college classes to learn more didn't help much.


"A *professional* is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee"

If you are receiving compensation for performing services THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A PROFESSIONAL.  This is what everyone has been trying to tell you.  I'd be willing to bet that you have no business license, insurance, or anything else required for running a business (which is exactly what you are doing whether tou choose to admit it or not).  There was a thread on here late last year from a woman in Florida, if I remember correctly, who was doing exactly the same thing as you.  Playing with her camera, charging a few bucks for photos, etc.  The city in which she lived slammed her hard.  They notified her that she owed back taxes for every dime she had made, they were going to slap her with fines for running a business without a license, all the bells and whistles.

These are things you might want to put some thought into ...


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## 12sndsgood (May 2, 2012)

boom goes the dynamite...


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 2, 2012)




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## alb1113 (May 2, 2012)

SCraig said:


> alb1113 said:
> 
> 
> > ... I'd be willing to bet that you have no business license, insurance, or anything else required for running a business (which is exactly what you are doing whether tou choose to admit it or not)....
> ...


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## KmH (May 2, 2012)

Done.


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## tirediron (May 3, 2012)

jowensphoto said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > *Everyone else: Let's lay of the discussions about doctors, rocket-surgery, etc, mmmmmmmkay? Thanks!*
> ...


Absolutely!


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