# Mentorship



## pocketshaver (Nov 25, 2019)

What I would like to know is, how do you actually work that out?  On a social website I am part of, they have photo related groups. There are those who have the following view point:

 If you truly want to work alongside somebody with experience and absorb their way of working you bring something to the table of your own, whether it be models, money, equipment, studio space, a toilet scrubber, or something else of value that gets you into close contact with them. Otherwise, you're just wasting their time. It's not like they can't already get all of what they need on their own; they need you far less than you need them; - in fact, they don't need you at all.

Im trying to actually figure HOW that actually constitutes traditional mentoring, or mentoring attitude. All I have ever seen is that a mentor isn't teaching people to get monetary benefit out of it.  Ive never EVER seen it that the person being mentored is supposed to do those things.

Example, the stereotypical tale of young guy getting a clunker car and asking a professional mechanic friend or relative to help him restore it. Never was a "yeah ill teach you how to take the manifold apart IF you buy me 2,000$ in tools".
It was always "yeah I can show you how on the weekend or after school if you want. Since im like a professional mechanic paying customers come first and you buy any needed parts"


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## weepete (Nov 25, 2019)

That's an odd viewpoint to me. 

I don't have experience of mentoring in the photohraphy sphere, but I did serve an apprenticeship in a machine shop for work. My jorneyman, who was an old socialist considered it part of his duty to pass on what he knew as someone had passed taken him on and taught him the trade. Kind of a pay it forward thing which he had a very strong sense of responsibility.

Mentoring, in my mind is similar. It's not something you get a direct benefit out of, in fact it's more likely to cost you in terms of time and effort.


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## pocketshaver (Nov 25, 2019)

That's the assumption I always had. Its just that A large portion of that social group  actually think that guys idea is the right way.


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## tirediron (Nov 25, 2019)

I'm not clear on your concern.  Are you saying that mentors shouldn't be paid, or ???


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## Original katomi (Nov 25, 2019)

Agree with post 2.
In the past I have been able to pass on some of my skills, in a number of fields.
And like members here I am more than happy to pass on ideas,advice,suggestions to those that ask for help.
Whilst at the moment I have way too many family comments and problem to do so , at a later stage I would be happy to help someone learn via this site, even if it’s just the basics.
Post 2 said about paying forward. I do believe what goes around comes around.
Payment for teaching...... that’s up to each person to decide. As long as it’s up front at the start, people then can decide if it’s worth it.
 There is currently an OU Open University course for photography, here in the uk. I looked at it but knowing the commitment needed, I have decided not to do it because of family problems.
As for bringing something to the table as in post 1
Again that’s really something that needs to be sorted at the start.
I help my sister, teaching and gen help with her photography. I don’t charge here of course, sometimes when she wants to do something big, I get her to help with the cost of material, which I can get cheaper than she can.


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## Christie Photo (Nov 25, 2019)

It's how I cut my teeth, but that was decades ago.  The industry has changed quite a lot.

BUT...  If you can fine someone like me, you can still find a good situation.  Someone like me is tired of carrying gear and often times needs another pair of hands on a project to help set up.  Possibly more important is someone who has done it SO long he or she knows nobody will be taking work away from him or her.  In fact, I pay folks like you to give me hand.  

I enjoy talking about our craft and am always willing to share what I know.   Like I said...  it's how I got started.  I was still in my teens and spent much of my spare time hanging around local studios, asking questions and pitching in wherever I could.

I was just 16 and about to shoot my first wedding.  One fellow, Jim Marek, invited me to his home.  We sat at his kitchen table drinking coffee as he walked me through every aspect of wedding photography.  Jim was about 60 at the time.  I learned SO much that morning.  I can still remember him telling me, "You need a bigger camera."  I was still shooting 35mm.  I did buy a camera and applied all the wisdom he shared that day.  It would be a couple of others that took me further with portrait and product work.  I'm still forever grateful. 

Good luck to you!
-Pete


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## Original katomi (Nov 25, 2019)

Really nice story, not many credit those that helped them. 
I am helping my sister along, there are of course things I know nothing about, portraits being one topic. But as said if I can help anybody with basics I will. I could not do what you do, I do my photography just as a hobby, no time table no time pressure. It’s done for fun or it’s not done.  So not a good way to take someone out with me.
Here however, I can help in a limited way, and to honest am pleased to do. 
The person who taught you sounds like an old boy on the building site who decided that as I was sitting out the rain and did not want to waste my time playing cards he would teach me some aspects of maintaining carpenters tools.
Yep real old school stuff, but I still use the same methods


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## pocketshaver (Nov 25, 2019)

The reason I am trying to get actual input from actual photographers is that I don't see why a so called mentorship CAN be called that if the person doing the mentoring is doing it SOLELY for the basis of taking advantage of the person being mentored.

The instigation for this is a person, and those who feel the same way that the person who wants to be mentored should provide EVERYTHING the mentor wants.

Example, little timmy finds his grampas Kodak pocket camera, goes to this guy to learn how to use the camera. And suddenly in order to learn how to use the camera and minor things like aperture and depth of field, little timmy has to provide studio rentals, models, and studio lighting equipment just to learn how to put film in it.


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## tirediron (Nov 25, 2019)

I suppose it depends on how what Little Timmy wants aligns with what I am willing to offer.  If you want to be mentored on a job that I am going to, then about all I expect you to do is turn up on time, properly attired, and ready to do what you're told.  If on the other hand, you want to use my studio (which I rent on an as-required basis now) when I don't plan to, then yes, I'll expect you to stump up $25.00/hour + tax.  The use of my gear is complimentary (unless you break something), and while it's not required, if we're going to sit downstairs and discuss a project, yes, it would be good form to pay for my coffee.


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## pocketshaver (Nov 25, 2019)

tirediron said:


> I suppose it depends on how what Little Timmy wants aligns with what I am willing to offer.  If you want to be mentored on a job that I am going to, then about all I expect you to do is turn up on time, properly attired, and ready to do what you're told.  If on the other hand, you want to use my studio (which I rent on an as-required basis now) when I don't plan to, then yes, I'll expect you to stump up $25.00/hour + tax.  The use of my gear is complimentary (unless you break something), and while it's not required, if we're going to sit downstairs and discuss a project, yes, it would be good form to pay for my coffee.




This is more of a "tirediron" feels he can mentor little timmy in his quest on  how to use his vintage camera. Tirediron wants to photograph a particular model at the beach that weekend, so he has little timmy cough up the cost of the model, the cost of lunch for him, timmy, and the model, cost of gas, rental fees for a 
*AF-S NIKKOR 180-400mm f/4E TC1.4 FL ED VR*
$12,399.95 ,

And for 35 minutes in a 6 hour trip to the beach, tirediron will show timmy how to load film into his Agfa isolette, and how to move the shutter speed selector between shutter speeds and the same with aperture selector.


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## tirediron (Nov 25, 2019)

Ummm... that's not mentorship.  That's just plain being a Richard and if someone goes along with that, they need their head examining!


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## pocketshaver (Nov 25, 2019)

tirediron said:


> Ummm... that's not mentorship.  That's just plain being a Richard and if someone goes along with that, they need their head examining!


According to him, hes done it for so many years no one ever complains. I guess im not as stupid as he says.


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## Original katomi (Nov 26, 2019)

Hi peeps. Whilst I have not been mentored  I do have to agree with some of what he has said.
My experience from camera clubs  is that most photographers will help with the basics without fee or favour.
Yes the coffee is a valid thing. 
If you are going to go up to some one to pick there brains, a coffee will often open people up. They may not even like coffee but will appreciate the gesture.
As for the coffee whilst talking about a project, that often works out as a your turn my turn 
And to be quite honest if I was getting a day out with someone who would teach me, welll a coffee is a small price.


Just as a heads up, Tired iron knows I am not a moderator so this is just an observation 
This thread is starting to look a bit heated.


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## Designer (Nov 26, 2019)

pocketshaver said:


> What I would like to know is, how do you actually work that out?


Some of our members have offered to mentor newbies.  They are (AFAIK) doing it for no monetary gain whatsoever, just out of a spirit of friendly helpfulness.  Not everyone is a selfish money-grubber.


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## Christie Photo (Nov 26, 2019)

AND...  if someone is truly a professional and takes you on as a protégé, there is (of course) a line.  They haven't purchased your soul.  They don't get to mistreat you.  They should also pay _something_...  a small stipend...  use of gear...  whatever.

AND...  anyone who would expect another to foot the bill for spec shoots or personal projects is NO mentor.

Mentoring should ADVANCE OUR PROFESSION...  something that is not often considered these days.

Like John said... "turn up on time, properly attired, and ready to do what you're told" is just as important as learning the craft.  

-Pete


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## Soocom1 (Nov 26, 2019)

What your talking about is a form of elitism. I am in an area that knows this WWWAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY  too well! 

New Mexico was at the center of alot of photographic aspects throughout the 20th century. From the landscapes and sunsets, to the pueblos, old spanish architecture, to the eclectic folks who live here. Add in a healthy does of free spirited artists and the area was an art mecca.  There was also a great deal of photogrammetric development here and satellite imagery is long steeped here as well. (Think Los Alamos Labs) 
I said before that in a shot 20 years ago, one couldn't throw a cat without hitting a store selling photography supplies. 

But with that came an elitist and very exclusive group of professional photographers who (I had a fair share of one on ones with them) wouldn't give you the time of day. They literally took the position that unless you owned a Hasselblad you weren't worth the scum poop they scraped off their shoes. 

I knew for a goodly number of years folks in the photographic industry that simply looked at you as scum and treated you as such. mentoring was non-existent. If you wanted to work in a photography studio you had to had gone through 4 years of college with a post graduate in photographic design. Even some of the camera stores took the position that if your not holding a degree in Photography and Image Arts, that you were worthless. I had alot of experience with that garbage for years. 

Now the UK's history is widely built on old school mentoring aspects that is steeped in tradition. Because i am across the pond, were more independent minded than that lot. So the particulars I am not high on, but grasp the concept.   
what this sounds like to me is a club of folks who hold their nose at those not of the right pedigree of sorts. 

I amy be wrong, but from where I come from at large, you learn by doing and find the folks who will mentor you because the love to. Not because they can get something out of it.


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## pocketshaver (Nov 26, 2019)

That last example I did with tirediron,, that's how a lot of people seem to think it should be done.  The genius who started this thread going, hes done nothing but this scam for 6+ years. And for being the one who actually stood up and called them out on the practice I was banned from their photo group.

Is it a sign of an elitist view from the last decade of instagram celebrities ruling an imaginary fiefdom/


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## Christie Photo (Nov 26, 2019)

Well...  I'm a bit lost.  Were we not talking about how to secure an opportunity to shadow an experienced photographer?



pocketshaver said:


> The genius who started this thread going...



Isn't this your thread?

Oh well.

-Pete


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## tirediron (Nov 26, 2019)

I'm confused now too....


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## pocketshaver (Nov 26, 2019)

Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.

If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE    all I can ask you is can you spell the following words

Cat
Dog
Sun


And also makes me wonder if you need someone to cut your food for you.


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## tirediron (Nov 26, 2019)

pocketshaver said:


> Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.
> 
> If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE    all I can ask you is can you spell the following words
> 
> ...


Sorry, am I missing something?  @pocketshaver - this feels rather like an attack on people who are responding positively to your thread....


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## waday (Nov 27, 2019)

Christie Photo said:


> Well...  I'm a bit lost.  Were we not talking about how to secure an opportunity to shadow an experienced photographer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was confused at that, as well, but assumed he meant in the other forum with the photographer that’s taking advantage of being a “mentor”?


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## DanOstergren (Nov 27, 2019)

Anyone who I have ever mentored for free already had a personal connection with me, ie a close friend or relative. Everyone else pays, unless I'm feeling generous and _want_ to take on the burden of a student for free.

If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship, unless said stranger has explicitly said "I'm looking to mentor a stranger without any compensation in return". Even the cost of booking a model and equipment or studio rentals doesn't quite come close to what many photographers charge to educate those looking for specific knowledge of a craft that they have mastered, for even one day. If you're so entitled that you feel you should receive free mentorship, I suggest you don't ask those who expect payment for their hard earned knowledge and then complain that they expect compensation. That's just dumb.

Even I had to do hours and hours of office work in exchange for being on set for high production photo shoots with an experienced photographer, and it was worth it. Expecting someone to just teach you their hard earned knowledge and experience for free out of the kindness of their hearts is more than a little bit absurd from my point of view. Maybe offer to assist them on photo shoots at the very least. You will learn a ton even just from doing that and watching.


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## Derrel (Nov 27, 2019)

pocketshaver said:


> Instead of calling people out individually for their stupidity, I use the same method that kindergarten uses. Story book problems.
> 
> If you aren't smart enough to understand THOSE    all I can ask you is can you spell the following words
> 
> ...



Nice! (  sarcasm )

Here is a word : reciprocity.


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## SquarePeg (Nov 27, 2019)

if you don’t like their mentor program requirements, don’t do it.  Find another group that is more in line with your philosophy.


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## DanOstergren (Nov 27, 2019)

Derrel said:


> *Here is a word : reciprocity.*



It bears repeating...


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## weepete (Nov 28, 2019)

Reprocity is fine, but be upfront about it. If you're willing to teach someone but want financially compensated that's fine, that's what photography workshops are based on. But I wouldn't call someone that's only in that relationship a mentor, certainly in my neck of the woods that would be more commonly known as a tutor.


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## tirediron (Nov 28, 2019)

DanOstergren said:


> ...If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship...


Agree 100% Dan, however my response was based on the interpretation of the OP's post which I took to mean that the mentor was simply using the student as a way to fund his own work, and throwing very little back in return.  To me, that's definitely Richard-ish!


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## pocketshaver (Nov 28, 2019)

tirediron said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > ...If someone is used to being paid for teaching their skills, it's actually not being a "Richard" to expect that someone bring something of value to the table when approaching a stranger about mentorship...
> ...



That's exactly what the situation is and was on that other spot on the internet.  Something that ALOT of people who tossed their two peso's worth in refused to understand.


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## Overread (Nov 29, 2019)

To go back to the first post:



pocketshaver said:


> If you truly want to work alongside somebody with experience and absorb their way of working you bring something to the table of your own, whether it be models, money, equipment, studio space, a toilet scrubber, or something else of value that gets you into close contact with them. Otherwise, you're just wasting their time. It's not like they can't already get all of what they need on their own; they need you far less than you need them; - in fact, they don't need you at all.
> 
> Im trying to actually figure HOW that actually constitutes traditional mentoring, or mentoring attitude. All I have ever seen is that a mentor isn't teaching people to get monetary benefit out of it.  Ive never EVER seen it that the person being mentored is supposed to do those things.
> 
> ...



A few thoughts:
1) There is no right nor wrong way to mentor someone, the key is that both parties come to the table and agree to an agreement which benefits each party. 

2) There is thus nothing wrong with a student paying a mentor/teacher (the terms often get used fairly interchangeably and you tend to see "mentor" used more so outside of formal school systems).

3) Your example of £2K worth of tools is somewhat extreme and likely beyond what many would consider normal; however at the same time a formal school class could easily cost you way more than that. So if that mentor were teaching you 2 or 3 days a week for months that value doesn't actually turn out too big when broken down into days/hours of tuition given. 

Sometimes people teach for free, that's great. Other times they want an exchange of services or money or other forms of exchange. Basically saying that a student is not there to get their mentoring for nothing. This is perfectly normal, whilst many people are happy to teach for free, some often prefer students to put a commitment into things. Sometimes that's money; or labour; or skills etc... There's nothing wrong with that and heck if the mentor is already a professional working day to day then taking their own time to mentor/teach a student then the student doing work makes full sense. Many a person has learned under a mentor whilst also carrying the lights and bags; setting up gear; taking gear down etc... 

There is no right not wrong approach, only a balance that is not abusive and which student and mentor agree to.


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## pocketshaver (Nov 29, 2019)

Overread said:


> To go back to the first post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet MOST people seem to overlook the abusive tendencies as being "expected to have to pay SOME renumeration for learning didn't you?"

I just don't get the reasoning some have that its ok to take advantage of someone who you allow to TAG ALONG on a previously scheduled event by making them reimburse you for the studio , model, prop, equipment rentals.


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## weepete (Nov 29, 2019)

Overread said:


> To go back to the first post:
> 
> A few thoughts:
> 1) There is no right nor wrong way to mentor someone, the key is that both parties come to the table and agree to an agreement which benefits each party.
> ...



While essentially I agree I do think there's a few small diffeerences in our opinion that I'd like to put forward for considereation.

I don't think that if advice is conditional on payment then I wouldn't class that as mentorship. Admitedy, there is a debate about altruism but to me a mentor is someone that freely gives advice.

I know that even after I left my apprenticeship, my Journeyman Jim, and our workshop supervisor Kaz (who where both mentors to me), would give their time and advice freely. I could show up at the workshop, give them a phone or whatever and they would be there with much needed guidance. Even after I left their employer they still had my back. That to me, is mentorship. Yes, when I was an apprentice I did the heavy carrying, I did the simpler jobs, I held the piece while the master did the work. We all cleaned up, oiled the machines, swept the floor and you were expected to tidy up after yourself. 

But there was a point where that changed. Jim would give me the more complex jobs, even if it meant taking the worse ones himself. One of my big memories is Kaz handing me a part fresh from the US and saying "Take 2 thou off it and don't F it up Pete as it's 15 grand for a new one". Sweating bricks on that one but was done to tolerence.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with expecting renumeration, but if your advice is conditional on that then that's not the same IMO


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## DanOstergren (Nov 30, 2019)

pocketshaver said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > To go back to the first post:
> ...


Ok, but are we discussing mentoring or abuse? Abuse is a really extreme example and in my experience an uncommon occurrence in a student/mentor situation.


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## pocketshaver (Dec 1, 2019)

DanOstergren said:


> pocketshaver said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



You've actually read the entire discussion.  The problem is that the minute people here "mentoring" or "mentorship" they instantly go into a fatalistic mindset that allows just about anything to happen in it.

But yes, I could have probably titled this thread as "abuse posing as mentorship". But when a group feels that making someone bite the pillow in order to learn the most simplistic things is honest mentorship...


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## Derrel (Dec 1, 2019)

Groupthink can be dangerous.


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## DanOstergren (Dec 2, 2019)

pocketshaver said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> > pocketshaver said:
> ...


You're making sweeping generalizations, still. Allow me to make the proper corrections: "_The problem is that the minute people hear "mentoring" or "mentorship", *I believe* they instantly go into a fatalistic mindset that allows just about anything to happen in it._ "

 Your list of seemingly abusive requirements contradict that statement however:


pocketshaver said:


> If you truly want to work alongside somebody with experience and absorb their way of working you bring something to the table of your own, whether it be models, money, equipment, studio space, a toilet scrubber, or something else of value that gets you into close contact with them. Otherwise, you're just wasting their time. It's not like they can't already get all of what they need on their own; they need you far less than you need them; - in fact, they don't need you at all.


Literally none of this could be considered "biting the pillow", "fatalistic", or abuse.

You also seem to be confused about what an "honest mentorship" is. A mentorship happens because the mentor decides that they want to take on the responsibility of being someone's mentor, perhaps because they are close to the person they are teaching, or perhaps because they see potential in someone who is gifted but has an untrained eye for photography. Mentorships don't just happen because you want someone to mentor you, and if nobody seems to be inspired by your poor attitude and entitlement, your only option is to refer to the list that you started this topic with and decide what you might be willing to do from it in exchange for what you are seeking.

However, if you truly believe that the knowledge you are seeking out only consists of "simplistic things", then you shouldn't need a mentor in order to acquire that knowledge. Beliefs aren't facts though, and the fact of the matter is that any expert worth learning from knows that it isn't simple at all, and that their knowledge and vision are valuable and took hard work to acquire. It's up to you if you want to keep believing that some sucker worth their salt in photography will look past your entitled attitude and take you under their wing for absolutely nothing though, simply because you feel as if they owe it to you.


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