# Tears...



## AprilRamone (Nov 13, 2007)

Those of your who do Children's Photography, what are your thoughts on giving a proof of a child crying? 
I generally try to only give happy photos because I've found that most parents are pretty obsessed with having a big ol' smile in their children's photographs, but I just had to include this one in on the last session I had. It kind of reminded me of one of Diane Arbus's photographs and she's def. one of my favorites. 
I know that big part of Mom's sweater is pretty distracting.  Maybe I'll try getting rid of it, but it's pretty big!


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## Alpha (Nov 13, 2007)

I would not give a photo like that to client. 

As a side note, polaroid borders on non-polaroids are a HUGE pet peeve of mine.


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## JimmyJaceyMom (Nov 13, 2007)

I would do it. I am a mom and my kids' crying faces are sometimes just as cute as their smiley happy ones.  Those expressions change too as they grow older.


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## souljourney (Nov 13, 2007)

Another mom voting for a yes...I would give a crying photo to a client.  Babies are babies are babies, for better and for worse.  Not every moment in their lives are happy.  Some of my favorite shots of my son are of him crying or angry or something other than happy and smiling.  Not because I like to see him upset but because I like to remember every look, every expression that comes across that sweet little face of his!


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## AprilRamone (Nov 13, 2007)

MaxBloom said:


> I would not give a photo like that to client.
> 
> As a side note, polaroid borders on non-polaroids are a HUGE pet peeve of mine.


 
It would be more helpful to me if you said why you wouldn't give a photo like the one I posted.  Is it simply because the child is upset?  Is it because you don't like the border?  Is it because Mom's sweater is too distracting?


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## AprilRamone (Nov 13, 2007)

Souljourney and Kathi,
Thank you for your opinions, since you are Moms it helps me to know that you wouldn't necessarily be opposed to getting a crying picture.


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## Alpha (Nov 13, 2007)

As an aside, alright. I'm just saying, if I were paying for a series of shots I probably wouldn't see it coming. Provided it doesn't take the place of any other photo, but rather is in addition to them, I don't see a problem.


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## AprilRamone (Nov 13, 2007)

Well yeah, I definitely wouldn't submit this as the _only_ proof from a session!  I give 24 reworked proofs and thought it might be ok to give one that isn't the average happy shot.

I think I may really need to get rid of that annoying bright sweater though...grrr.


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## Alpha (Nov 13, 2007)

I just have to ask...what do you think that border adds to the photo? Is it something you would include as part of the final shot? If not, why frame it in a way in which it wouldn't otherwise be framed ? (i.e. your client probably isn't going to run out and buy a frame for the shot that looks like a 4x5 polaroid). 

I just don't see the use. I find it to be more distracting than complimentary of the subject.


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## Lisa B (Nov 14, 2007)

I personally think that it depends on the client to which you are giving the photo as to whether you should actually give the picture of the child crying or not. 

I personally, as a parent, would not want a picture of my son crying/upset as I find images like that a little upsetting and would be a little upset having been given a picture like that from a shoot - I'm unlikely to put a picture of my child crying, on display. 

However, having said that, some people would not mind at all having a photograph like that - it is a good photograph in the sense of art but you just have to be a little careful with sensitivity - some parents may even be slightly offended. 

It is your decision to make at the end of the day, I personally wouldn't offer the photograph to the parents as most of the time, the parents want photographs of their children for happier display purposes and nice rememberance shots. 

Lisa xx


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## AprilRamone (Nov 14, 2007)

The printed proofs will not have the frame, but I think the frame adds a nice finishing touch for presenting them their proofs online and for forums.  
This particular client has been hiring me to shoot her children's portraits since her older son was born 3 years ago, so I'm not too concerned about trying out a new kind of photo on her.  She has specifically stated that she likes how I photograph all the different aspects of her son's personality.  And, I think when there are 23 other proofs to see that don't have a crying baby it will be less of a problem than if I were to present it in a group of only 10-15 images.  But, you guys are right, you never know what may "offend" (eh, offend is kind of a strong word especially if it's your own child!) a parent.  I suppose I could throw it in as #25 instead of including it as part of the quoted 24 shots....


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## Holly (Nov 14, 2007)

awwe I love these kinds of moments..  I see them smile all the time and photos of them crying are just another memory to capture as we do NOT all have happy lives ALL the time.. There are moments you just have to cry! ANother mom voting yup!


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## wildmaven (Nov 14, 2007)

Did you clone out the snot from below his nose, because that area looks really strange...?? 

I agree with Max on the borders, by the way.  I think messy borders look more like "MySpace" photos than a professional presentation, but that's just my opinion. 

This image just makes me uncomfortable. Not a feeling I'd want to give to a potential customer. 

Marian


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## Alpha (Nov 14, 2007)

AprilRamone said:


> The printed proofs will not have the frame, but I think the frame adds a nice finishing touch for presenting them their proofs online and for forums.



I think "a nice finishing touch" is exactly the opposite of what it is. Polaroids are raw. And people who actually shoot Polaroids often include the border to reinforce that effect...i.e. the image is entirely untouched. A "finishing touch" is actually the antithesis of what the inclusion of such borders is generally intended to portray. Just my $.02.


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## NJMAN (Nov 14, 2007)

Hi April, 

I dont know if I really have an opinion on this issue.  Im kind of on the fence.  It can go either way for me.

I want to ask you though...is there any particular reason why you quote the customer for exactly 24 proofs?  I dont usually set it to a certain number, simply because Im not sure I can always get 24 great shots in any given portrait session.  I sometimes go as low as 12-15 proofs, and as high as 40 depending on how things went.  The last shoot I did had 34 proofs, because there were just so many good expressions I wanted to show the parents.


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## AprilRamone (Nov 14, 2007)

I see what you are saying Max, but in the way that I am using these borders (on a digital image & online), to me they are the finishing touch and I like them.  We can disagree on that 

Wilmaven, yes I did do a little touch up on the snot because there was a lot of snot in this session.  I suppose I could have left it for the crying picture, but it's gross  If she decides to order this one, I'll spend a bit more time editing that area.

NJMan, I've just found that in general, I can find 24 good images from each of my sessions.  Plus, I want to always charge the same amount and I think my clients would get upset if one session allowed for 40 images and then another only 15.  
That being said, if I feel like there are some good ones, I'll include more just to be nice.  But, generally I'll just try and be more harsh about what I'm including so that it really is the best 24 of each session.


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## AprilRamone (Nov 14, 2007)

P.S. Marian, the fact that you said this photo just makes you uncomfortable actually kind of makes me happy because at least it's eliciting some sort of feeling!  And, as a former nanny and a babysitter I think it's kind of cool to show kids not always being idyllic.


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## BlackDog's (Nov 14, 2007)

Would I give a client a proof of their baby crying?  Probably not.  I personally don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the style I&#8217;m going for but I think that answer depends on the client.  More and more clients are attracted to a journalistic or storytelling approach to photographs.  But will a picture of a baby crying sell when it&#8217;s the parent buying?  You&#8217;ve got to try and determine what the client will like and buy.  Keep in mind the parent isn&#8217;t a photographer and may not even see the artistic value of your photograph.  It's not really about what you or I as a photographer think about the photo.  You also want to keep this client coming back for more.  Is giving them a proof of their baby crying going to turn them off or intrigue them?  Do you want the reputation of being the photographer in town who tries to sell crying baby pictures?


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## stellar_gal (Nov 14, 2007)

I always add crying photos of the children I photograph, if there are any nice ones.  I am a mom too and I would love to have that in a collection, or a fussy series storyboard- which I have seen in a lot of local web galleries.

As said above, kids are unpredictable and it's who they are.  I strive to show individual personality, whether is all smiles or not.  It gives variety and their individuality shines through, tears or not.  If the client doesn't order it, oh well.  You captured an emotion and that's part of the process.

For C&C, I like the image and would use it personally, I just don't like the eyes that close to the center.  It would benefit to either rid the sweater or try and darken it some.  I love the DOF and the catchlights though.
Good luck.  Just my own 2 cents!


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## craig (Nov 14, 2007)

Not seeing the Diane Arbus part of your discussion. Arbus had a strong understanding of the subject. As opposed to a kid crying.

Love & Bass


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## kmorgan (Nov 15, 2007)

I just had my kids portraits done at a studio and they gave me at least 100 proofs and they did give me a crying picture as well as a bottom lip sticking out picture...I absolutely love them because it tells the story of what a booger my daughter was being that day. The lip sticking out one is worthy of a wall and the crying one will remain in the portfolio for funny references. I would be extremely disappointed if I wasn't shown exteme expressions of my kids...I'm working on a collection for my daughters room with photos of all her expressions as like someone already mentioned here change daily and capturing those are just as important to me as capturing a cheesy grin. (I do not like posed smiles)
I'm not a pro-really just a customer right now with a love for this hobby...


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## AprilRamone (Nov 15, 2007)

craig said:


> Not seeing the Diane Arbus part of your discussion. Arbus had a strong understanding of the subject. As opposed to a kid crying.
> 
> Love & Bass


 
Well, I am certainly not trying to say that my photograph has an underlying meaning and was meant to show all that Arbus showed in her photographs, but I personally thought of two of her crying baby pictures (A child crying, NJ 1967 & Mother Holding her child NJ 1967) when I saw this one when sorting through the images.  
By no means am I trying to say that my work in general is similar to hers.  Obviously it's not.  She wasn't concerned with creating images to please her subjects and I am.  I just meant that this one picture of a crying baby reminded me of her crying baby pictures because I thought it funny how she was able to show a completely unhappy side of motherhood that is usually made out to be completely blissful.  And my job is to keep perpetrating the myth that there are only happy moments and bundles of joy when dealing with babies.  
So I guess when I was comparing the photographs, I was comparing them on a surface level.  I didn't mean that I was out to show the despair of being a mother and how ugly and freakish young children are which is what I see when I look at her photographs.


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## AprilRamone (Nov 15, 2007)

BTW, I do a ton of babysitting on the side, and I have been seeing pictures of their kids crying being framed so that's really why I was starting to think about including some shots like that.  However, I don't think it will become a regular thing for me as I wouldn't consider putting something like this in my portfolio or on my website unless it was a part of a series showing different expressions.


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## Iron Flatline (Nov 16, 2007)

I have shots of my kids crying that I think are hilarious. As a parent you learn to parse their various cries - most of which are not about fear or pain, but rather about anger over not getting what they want... such as lighters, scissors, large kitchen sheers, my Leica...

In this case the kid looks tired, and probably wants to go home. The tears are big, that's usually a good metric.

The border is a creative choice; there's no "right" way.


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## SpaceNut (Nov 17, 2007)

I like this photo and I agree on giving a photo like this to a client. However, I do believe that it depends on the circumstances of the event. If it was an unpleasant situation that would bring up sad or bad memories, then 'no'.


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## Christina (Nov 26, 2007)

Im not a parent but a bigger sister to a 4 & 6 yr old and foster sister to many others. If this shot was included, im sure it would get a laugh. 
children have many emotions and switch from one to the other quickly.
i would feel the parents out, but i would not discard it, nor display it to every parent.

i on the other hand think its a very nice photograph and would order it. I like the range of emotion.

[with a grain of salt]


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## Sweetsomedays (Nov 26, 2007)

I love every emotion my children exhibit. As a Mom I would jump on it. I get a bit frustrated with parents that only want the smiley pics. But thats how most want.


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