# People who take money but know nothing.



## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

I've made a personal and non-momentous decision.

If someone makes a post, asking a basic question (in my estimation) that they really should know and they are already taking money for photography, I will immediately put them on 'ignore'.

(I would be truly angry if my surgeon had to stop near the end of a procedure to ask how to tie a specific knot.)

I won't contribute to the deterioration of an already on-the-ropes profession.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

I endorse this message.


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## pixmedic (Oct 31, 2013)

I endorse runnahs endorsement of lews proposal.


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## Overread (Oct 31, 2013)

I endorse the increased supply of bacon provided to moderato..... wait this isn't the mod perks voting thread is it?


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## snerd (Oct 31, 2013)

Crotchety old curmudgeons.


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## sleist (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> (I would be truly angry if my surgeon had to stop near the end of a procedure to ask how to tie a specific knot.)



Once upon a time, this was exactly the case with the "practice" of medicine.
The medical profession was in serious trouble until they created professional licensing and accredited medical schools.


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## mishele (Oct 31, 2013)




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## BrickHouse (Oct 31, 2013)

We were looking for a couple quick shots last fall for the Christmas card and had a young gal on base offer her services for free with the caveat that we allow her to use the photos on her website. We checked out the website and she had a few nice pictures and thought, what-the-hell, lets see. We arrived at the designated meeting place and she had FORGOTTEN HER CAMERA. Well, being pretty laid back, we let her go grab it from her house and then started shooting. As we were talking during the shoot, I asked how she got into photography. She proceeded to tell me all about how she borrowed her camera from her cousin and learned everything she new by reading pinterest. Could barely contain my composure at this point and about busted up laughing. She then explained all about how she didn't think it was fair for her to charge us because she is still trying to build her portfolio. Needless to say, we got 1 usable picture out of the entire shoot and a good ab exercise from laughing at her after the fact. Point of the story: these are the types of "Professionals" out there taking money from people. Probably a few becoming "professionals" here on this site too.


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## Braineack (Oct 31, 2013)

I made $100 bucks once.  Ignore me!


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## Robin_Usagani (Oct 31, 2013)

American dream.


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## SCraig (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I've made a personal and non-momentous decision.
> 
> If someone makes a post, asking a basic question (in my estimation) that they really should know and they are already taking money for photography, I will immediately put them on 'ignore'.
> 
> ...



I've pretty much been doing the same thing since I joined here.

I may be old and grumpy but I've worked around licensed professionals for 40+ years.  One thing I learned long ago was that a professional ANYTHING should learn their trade BEFORE they start to charge for their services and not learn their trade WHILE they are charging for services.


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## Braineack (Oct 31, 2013)

It was sweet; they hid it in my camera bag.


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## KmH (Oct 31, 2013)

sleist said:


> Once upon a time, this was exactly the case with the "practice" of medicine.
> The medical profession was in serious trouble until they created professional licensing and accredited medical schools.


How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? - ProPublica

Entry-level photography businesses are far from being a significant cause of the changes in the profession of doing photography that have occurred over the last 15 years.
Changes will continue to be driven by a wide range of factors.

Digital cameras, the Internet, consolidation of the stock photography industry, social media image sharing - all have had, and continue to have, way more impact on the changing photography industry.

Resident doctors get paid between $40,000 and $75,000 during the up to 6 years they spend learning the practical application of how to be doctors.
They get paid to 'practice' on real people, ask basic questions, and if you have surgery at a teaching hospital, the surgeon may indeed have to ask how to tie the appropriate knot.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

sleist said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > (I would be truly angry if my surgeon had to stop near the end of a procedure to ask how to tie a specific knot.)
> ...



Yup, that was the Flexner Report, about 100 years ago.
The big change was in the accreditation of schools and the state licensing of physicians.


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## Robin_Usagani (Oct 31, 2013)

I don't really care.  As long as the fauxtographer delivers photos like his/her portfolio, then why does it matter?  If someone sees their portfolio and they want to pay for photos like that, so what?


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> I don't really care.  As long as the fauxtographer delivers photos like his/her portfolio, then why does it matter?  If someone sees their portfolio and they want to pay for photos like that, so what?



I liken it to a race car driver asking how to drive stick. Basic stuff that anyone who calls themselves a driver should know. Now if the same driver asks a question about a particular cornering speed for a specific track that they haven't driven on, this is more than acceptable.


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

Speaking of driving, is that Jeremy Clarkson in your avatar, runnah?


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

KmH said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > Once upon a time, this was exactly the case with the "practice" of medicine.
> ...



Partially correct on the facts but the inferences are wrong - and wrong in the kind of way that almost belies belief.

After medical school, residents practice under the strict supervision of both senior residents and attending physicians for 3-5 years. 
They aren't learning 'knots', they are learning things that can't be learned in classes alone. 
(How else would you expect someone to learn the incredible amount of fact and correlations that is current knowledge in medicine?
My son is an allergist/immunologist; he gets probably 4 journals monthly in his specialty alone. He studies nightly just to keep up with his specialty. Every 5 years he has to take specialty boards in both Internal Medicine and Allergy to make certain that he is current.}​
Residents work whatever hours are needed. The recent standards of a hospital getting accreditation are limiting the number of work-hours to 80 hours weekly, overnight call frequency to no more than one in three, 30-hour maximum straight shifts, and at least 10 hours off between shifts. This after 4 years of medical school that comes after 4 years of college. My son did this for 2 years as an internist and 2 years as an allergy/immunology resident. (as did my daughter-in-law.)
Most physicians are the cream of the crop, pretty well educated and very determined to survive pre-med courses. 

So what if they make about the same money per year at their residency as they paid for each of their years in medical school?


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> I don't really care.  As long as the fauxtographer delivers photos like his/her portfolio, then why does it matter?  If someone sees their portfolio and they want to pay for photos like that, so what?



I understand.
As long as you got yours, then what happens to the profession doesn't mean much.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

limr said:


> Speaking of driving, is that Jeremy Clarkson in your avatar, runnah?



It is indeed Jezza.


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## ronlane (Oct 31, 2013)

<<<< is wondering if this question and the others in his head are on Lew's list of questions to get him ignored.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I've made a personal and non-momentous decision.
> 
> If someone makes a post, asking a basic question (in my estimation) that they really should know and they are already taking money for photography, I will immediately put them on 'ignore'.
> 
> ...



My name is Ibyte an I approve this message.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Getting ignored is not a bad thing.
It's quieter and you don't have to deal with my nasty remarks and ill temper.


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

Beans are lazy!


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

I'd rather attack with vigor than ignore someone. Sadly that is frowned upon here.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

snerd said:


> Crotchety old curmudgeons.



Old has nothing to do with it; I was crotchety from a very young age.

That being said, I am tired of lying to be nice just to be allowed to post here.
If I say what I think and get kicked off for doing it, well, that's life.


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## ronlane (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Getting ignored is not a bad thing.
> It's quieter and you don't have to deal with my nasty remarks and ill temper.



But Lew, that's how I've gotten better this last year or so. I've come to count on a few of those on here to be honest regardless of it being good or bad  [Most of the time I get little to no responses on my photos or questions]


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## jsecordphoto (Oct 31, 2013)

This is why I've held off on selling any prints. I just picked photography back up after 5+ years of being away. Although I had been heavily into photography for years, learning all the ins and outs of using my DSLR, lightroom, etc took a bit and I still have a ton to learn. Ive had numerous people ask me about buying prints recently but I decided to hold off until Im TRULY happy with a image I would put my name on.

However, your across the board condemnation of anyone who is making money off their photography seems misguided to me. Its almost selfish, because even if you dont agree with their "business practices" you could still teach them about photography and for sure have experience and knowledge to offer. I get it that the photo market is saturated and it can be hard to make money...but I think its better to try and help somebody learn than to just ignore them and let the problem perpetuate.


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## DougGrigg (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I've made a personal and non-momentous decision.
> 
> If someone makes a post, asking a basic question (in my estimation) that they really should know and they are already taking money for photography, I will immediately put them on 'ignore'.



Amen lew, say it how it is!


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## amolitor (Oct 31, 2013)

I dunno where this myth that TPF policy demands that you be Nice comes from. You just have to be civil. You know, like you would face to face.

Lew is free to ignore anyone he wants.


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## pgriz (Oct 31, 2013)

In an unrelated field, I correspond with other contractors on various forums.  They get questions like the following:

-  What's the cheapest but goodest hammer drill?
-  How much to charge to put up sheetrock?  Hourly?  per sheet?
-  Which polyurea formulation has zero shrinkage after 5-year exposure?
-  What's the going rate for "regular" roofing?
-  What % commission do you pay the salesguys?
-  What's the long-term performance of Geocel foam applied as per specifications but exposed to UV?

Which question(s) above were asked by "professionals" and which by the wanna-be pretenders?  You can probably figure it out.  As for the clueless, they get told to ask their Mommy or Daddy.  Unfortunately, unlike photography, what they build will cost the homeowners or their customers much more than what photos cost, and can break and fall down, or contribute to unhealthy living conditions.  So the clueless get ripped, hard.  Those who have been in the field often have to fix the efforts of these "craftsmen", and it ain't pretty.  At the moment, my crew is gearing up to demolish some preparatory work done by another contractor who did not, um, allow the reality of the structure affect his ideas of how to proceed with his artistry.


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## Meeskephoto (Oct 31, 2013)

jsecordphoto said:


> This is why I've held off on selling any prints. I just picked photography back up after 5+ years of being away. Although I had been heavily into photography for years, learning all the ins and outs of using my DSLR, lightroom, etc took a bit and I still have a ton to learn. Ive had numerous people ask me about buying prints recently but I decided to hold off until Im TRULY happy with a image I would put my name on.
> 
> However, your across the board condemnation of anyone who is making money off their photography seems misguided to me. Its almost selfish, because even if you dont agree with their "business practices" you could still teach them about photography and for sure have experience and knowledge to offer. I get it that the photo market is saturated and it can be hard to make money...but I think its better to try and help somebody learn than to just ignore them and let the problem perpetuate.




This rings true for me. Why shun someone for trying to learn? We all have to learn somehow. There is no need for people putting a cap on it and ignoring questions because they are pros and know everything, therefore everybody else should to.

If you are selling your work then you should be expected to know what your doing obviously, but if you have a question to better yourself you should be frowned upon?


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## IByte (Oct 31, 2013)

mishele said:


>




Go bacon!...go bacon, it's your birthday!! oooooah! oooooah!


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## SCraig (Oct 31, 2013)

Meeskephoto said:


> jsecordphoto said:
> 
> 
> > This is why I've held off on selling any prints. I just picked photography back up after 5+ years of being away. Although I had been heavily into photography for years, learning all the ins and outs of using my DSLR, lightroom, etc took a bit and I still have a ton to learn. Ive had numerous people ask me about buying prints recently but I decided to hold off until Im TRULY happy with a image I would put my name on.
> ...



Nobody is saying that you should not ask questions.  However if one claims to be a professional photographer and ask questions like "What settings should I use for xyz?" they are also proclaiming to the world that they are clueless about their profession.  Take a look at This Web Site and keep in mind that every single photograph on it was taken by a so-called "Professional" photographer.


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## jaomul (Oct 31, 2013)

While I may agree with Lew and his reasoning I don't understand the broadcast. as nike say Lew, just do it


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## Meeskephoto (Oct 31, 2013)

Hahaha there is a site for that? Well you do have a point those people are ridiculous. I just found it kind of harsh the way the original post was worded, maybe just politely tell people they're stupid and move on?  If that's possible. I would never claim to be a professional unless I am the one answering the questions not asking them, so I can't relate to those photographers.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really care.  As long as the fauxtographer delivers photos like his/her portfolio, then why does it matter?  If someone sees their portfolio and they want to pay for photos like that, so what?
> ...



Lol.. well I seriously doubt there is anything Robin could say or do that would make much difference to the "profession" as a whole.  As someone else mentioned there have always been amateurs hungry to break into the "pro" ranks, and there always will be - but usually the market sorts that out on it's own.  If you deliver a substandard product you won't stay in business long, no matter what business your in - that's the way it's always been.

As for me if at some point I choose to charge someone to take photo's, honestly it's really none of your concern how much I know or don't know about photography.  If the client is happy with my work or unhappy with it, well that would be between me and my client.  So unless it's your dime, well then it's really none of your business at all.  Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, just attempting to make the point clear.

I see where your coming from with this but honestly there is no way to "police" the industry as you suggest, so it turns out to be pretty much a moot point.  It's up to the clients out there to decide what they consider to be their own acceptable standards, it's up to them to check portfolios, references, et al - it's not up to you or me to go to weddings at random and quiz the photographer to make certain he's knowledgeable enough before allowing him to proceed.

Now if a fellow amateur asks for my advice and says, "Hey, I've been offered a job shooting this wedding/event/etc" then yes, I will try to advise him as best I can on making sure his skills are up to the task before taking the job.  But I don't offer advice like that unsolicited.  So again, I understand and don't entirely disagree with your point that if your going to charge for services then you should be skilled in that particular field of endeavor, and that too many photographers out there simply are not.   But that's not my decision to make.  Nor is it yours.  The market will sort it out, just like it always has and just like it always will.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 31, 2013)

Meeskephoto said:


> Why shun someone for trying to learn? We all have to learn somehow. There is no need for people putting a cap on it and ignoring questions because they are pros and know everything, therefore everybody else should to.



No one said this. 




Meeskephoto said:


> If you are selling your work then you should be expected to know what your doing obviously, but if you have a question to better yourself you should be frowned upon?



No one said this. 

I agree 100% with Lew. And my agreement has nothing do with my age or disposition. 

It's a very challenging time for the business of professional photography. DSLR's flood the market, and a signifcant number of new DSLR owners seem to have this illusion that just because they own a DSLR, they are a professional photographer. It's like buying a pair of basketball shoes, and claiming you're a professional basketball player. 

The point Lew is making here is that people (noobies especially) should have enough respect for this established profession that they SHOULD NOT take money before they learn. And if they do take money, and then try to learn, Lew wants nothing to do with them. 

It's a completely logical point.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

Here's my take on things, I've known Lew to answer a few of my questions in the past and I am one of the new photographers who just opened shop a year and half ago. and personally I agree with his stance completely.   Here is a simple question that someone could ask, I'd bet that Lew would spend time answering the 1st response but not the 2nd.

1.  Hi I have been in business a little over a year and have been thinking of branching out to have a broader range of skills for my client. I want to get into Automotive photography, could anyone point me to some good references or tutorials so I can start learning this side of photography so that I can practice and eventually offer it to my clients.

2. Hi I am a professional photographer. I just took a job shooting a guys car for money and I've never done it before can someone explain to me how to shoot cars because the shoots on Saturday?


first one you have someone who wants to learn but is in business, he's willing to do the research and spend time on his own learning the skill and then charging for it. the second one you have someone that went out. took money from someone to shoot something they have no knowledge or experience of and wants someone on a forum to bail them out.  To me that seems to be the big issue with these type things. There are plenty of people on here who have been helped learn and grow as photographers while we are starting our business. and there are tons of people who hop on here in hopes of being "bailed out" by someone who has that knowledge.


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## DarkShadow (Oct 31, 2013)

If a Heating/AC service tech asked another tech should I turn off the feed to a natural gas line before service repairs, Would you ignore it or give him the boot. So if your schooled, trained and truly no what your doing to call your self a pro then asking how to do a wedding or set up lighting disqualifies one as Pro.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> As for me if at some point I choose to charge someone to take photo's, honestly it's really none of your concern how much I know or don't know about photography. If the client is happy with my work or unhappy with it, well that would be between me and my client. So unless it's your dime, well then it's really none of your business at all.



Logic check:

As for me if at some point I choose to charge someone to *treat their diseases*, honestly it's really none of your concern how much I know or don't know about *treating diseases*. If the client is happy with my work or unhappy with it, well that would be between me and my client. So unless it's your dime, well then it's really none of your business at all.

Industries have standards that make this sort of logic impossible and silly. 

Photography is a professional industry, but not everyone treats it as such. Mainly because they don't think they have to.

There are laws that stop someone from practicing medicine without a proper education. There are no laws that stop someone with inadequate knowledge from taking on a wedding a ruining someone's memories forever.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

ronlane said:


> But Lew, that's how I've gotten better this last year or so. I've come to count on a few of those on here to be honest regardless of it being good or bad  [Most of the time I get little to no responses on my photos or questions]



OK, *RonLane* - be nasty and rough - he likes it that way



jsecordphoto said:


> This is why I've held off on selling any prints. I just picked photography back up after 5+ years of being away. Although I had been heavily into photography for years, learning all the ins and outs of using my DSLR, lightroom, etc took a bit and I still have a ton to learn. Ive had numerous people ask me about buying prints recently but I decided to hold off until Im TRULY happy with a image I would put my name on.
> 
> However, your across the board condemnation of anyone who is making money off their photography seems misguided to me. Its almost selfish, because even if you dont agree with their "business practices" you could still teach them about photography and for sure have experience and knowledge to offer. I get it that the photo market is saturated and it can be hard to make money...but I think its better to try and help somebody learn than to just ignore them and let the problem perpetuate.



I've held off selling any prints also, but just until someone wants to buy them.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't dislike people who make money because they're good. What I can't stand is people who think there is so little of the art that they can pick it up in a short time and who have so little understanding of what can be done that they are willing to sell their crap to those who are dumb enough to buy it and then who are so shameless of their ignorance that they come here to ask questions about basic things that they should know.

Every time someone asks how to fit a 4 x 6 image onto a 4x5 paper without cropping, I start thumbing through the back pages of Soldier of Fortune looking for someone who works cheap. 

I am compelled to run into ignorant and shameless people enough in the normal course of life and I have no interest in putting myself in the situation of actually being pleasant in the hopes that they will learn something.
In truth, I wish there was a secret button on any dSLR that, when pushed, arms an explosive device which is triggered when a moron touches it. Unfortunately there isn't one.



amolitor said:


> I dunno where this myth that TPF policy demands that you be Nice comes from. You just have to be civil. You know, like you would face to face.
> Lew is free to ignore anyone he wants.



I wouldn't be civil face to face either. 
 It's difficult enough being a hypocrite online let alone face to face.


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## rexbobcat (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I understand.
> As long as you got yours, then what happens to the profession doesn't mean much.



That's not it. What control does he have over others? The people who use fauxtographers will never pay $200 for portraits.

To them, a good value is basically anyone who can get everyone in the frame for less than $100.

Saying that someone doesn't care about the industry just because they don't act vindictive towards the people who are supposedly ruining it is like saying that they don't care about The USA because they don't bad mouth Obama....

You're not helping the industry by actively trying to not educate the ignorant.

Sorry - your comment just seemed kind of mean.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

jaomul said:


> While I may agree with Lew and his reasoning I don't understand the broadcast. as nike say Lew, just do it



Well, the broadcast is to tell people what I am doing, in case I never show up on their posts again.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Majeed Badizadegan said:


> I agree 100% with Lew. And my agreement has nothing do with my age or disposition.
> 
> It's a very challenging time for the business of professional photography. DSLR's flood the market, and a signifcant number of new DSLR owners seem to have this illusion that just because they own a DSLR, they are a professional photographer. It's like buying a pair of basketball shoes, and claiming you're a professional basketball player.
> 
> ...



I guess I'd still have to disagree.  You can buy as many basketball shoes as you want, the NBA is not going to give you a tryout.  Same thing applies to me, I own a DSLR but just because I do I can't go into sports illustrated and get a job shooting cover models.  That is just not how it works.

Now stop and consider your audience for a moment - you've got a newbie with a camera who's got his head filled with dreams about being a professional photographer someday.  Well if you come along and try to convince him he can't, guess what - if you are able to talk him out of it he never had a shot at being a pro in the first place.  You have to be one seriously stubborn SOB to make a go of it in photography, someone who's willing to ignore pretty much everything and everyone telling you that you can't do it and just to out and do it anyway.

As for the "logic" of the point, personally I don't find much logic to it at all.  If the goal is to change the photography profession then guess what, posting a rant on an internet website will have pretty much zero impact.  I don't see a lot of logic to that, to me it's just ranting so you can feel better about the situation.  If it has no positive impact and doesn't do anything to fix the problem, merely complaining about what cannot be changed does not seem logical at all to me.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Majeed Badizadegan said:
> 
> 
> > I agree 100% with Lew. And my agreement has nothing do with my age or disposition.
> ...




it seems rather simple to me. the guy is saying he will help those that opened a business who have the basics down. have some respect for the field itself and who aren't trying to pull the wool over the eyes of their clients. he won't help those that basically jump into it without any experience to make a quick buck. who take jobs without having the knowledge to do the jobs and want to hop on a forum to get bailed out.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Majeed Badizadegan said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > As for me if at some point I choose to charge someone to take photo's, honestly it's really none of your concern how much I know or don't know about photography. If the client is happy with my work or unhappy with it, well that would be between me and my client. So unless it's your dime, well then it's really none of your business at all.
> ...



Ok.. I should probably warn you in advance that arguing logic with me is not the best idea you've probably ever come up with, but since you asked for it:

Your argument is a pristine example of a non sequitur.  You cannot compare charging for the treatment of a disease to charging for the taking of a photograph.  If I screw up and don't get the proper exposure taking a photograph then you will be inconvenienced and possibly disappointed.    You will not however suffer any permanent ill effects from this if my services are substandard.  Professional licensing for health care providers is something entirely different, in that case there is an actual interest in protecting the public from the ill effects of substandard service.  

But just for fun lets apply your logic to another profession.  Lets say we should require convenience store employees to obtain a professional license before they are allowed to work the cash register.  After all, if they fail to ring me up properly I might be inconvenienced or annoyed - a situation far more equatable to me paying for a photograph that did not meet my expectations.  So what happens when we do follow this "logic"?  Well since the store now has to pay to have all of it's employees licensed this will require you to pay $150 for a gallon for gas.  After all, licensing all of these employees is going to require a tremendous outlay of capital for the store itself and their expenses will naturally go through the roof - but it will be worth it right?  I mean that way you'll never run the risk of getting bad service again.

Also your remark about "industry standards" I think was rather funny.  What "standards" does one apply to an artistic medium, and how would you go about applying them?  An even more important consideration, who is it that determines those "standards"?   Me I can't stand modern art.  I never did understand it.  Was never a big fan of cubism either.  Not my cup of tea.  So if I am to be the standard bearer, does that mean all Picasso's should be discarded simply because I don't happen to care for them myself?  Do they suddenly lose all value and should there owners be subjected to shame and ridicule simply because I have determined that they are not "art" according to my own standard?

Again the only "logical" thing here is to allow the market to decide.  If I don't like Picasso, I don't have to buy one.  For those that do, they can.  For those that can't afford a Picasso, they might buy something done in a similar style by an unknown artist.  Who cares if you find the work by the unknown artist "substandard", if the guy buying it likes it then frankly it's none of your business.

Likewise if I pay someone to take photographs and I'm not happy with the results, that's between me and the photographer.  Just like when I pay anyone for any other sort of service where a professional license is not required.  I'm just not sure how you come to the conclusion that the public needs to be "protected" from bad photography in the same fashion that it needs to be protected from incompetent health care providers.  I see no correlation between the two, and I cannot for the life of me imagine how anyone could think of that as being "logical".


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Majeed Badizadegan said:
> ...



Well I guess my question, yet again, would be, who makes that determination?  I mean are we going to have a list of stuff that if someone asks about it they are unworthy of being helped with an answer?  And isn't the mere fact that they are coming to a forum and trying to gain that knowledge worthy of our respect and consideration?


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## KmH (Oct 31, 2013)

The supervision of resident doctors is necessary because life and death are at stake.

Supervision is not required for entry-level photography businesses.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2013)

Honestly I often disagree with Lew on things but I feel like he made an cogent air tight statement.

Fact is that with the access to information these days no one should be asking 90% of the questions that get asked here. What makes it tolerable is that most come from hobbyists. But when a working "professional" asks a basic question that could be answered in 1 google search and two minutes of reading it is infuriating.

Now what is acceptable is professional grade questions that are asked intelligently and are more experienced based.

Asking what lens you should use for a wedding you booked days before the event deserves the collective scorn of the Internet.


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## table1349 (Oct 31, 2013)

We are all prostitutes in one form or another when it come to making money.  Some are just less knowledgeable and less experienced then others.  I call the less knowledgeable, less experienced ones *FEMA*.  (Slow to respond and not a lot of satisfying results)


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...




the person giving out the information decides. they are the person with the knowledge. nobody is being paid to come here and answer questions. they do it out of there own desire to help. people shouldn't feel they Have to help every single person.   and again there is a huge difference in someone gaining knowledge, and someone hopping on a forum to save there butt because they took a job they had no clue how to do for money.   

someone who is taking money for something they don't know how to do, then running on a forum in hopes of being bailed out isn't someone I would respect. I would respect and help the person who told someone they weren't experienced enough to do the job and then came on a forum to learn so that the next time the job comes up they are skilled and qualified to do the job.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

runnah said:


> Honestly I often disagree with Lew on things but I feel like he made an cogent air tight statement.
> 
> Fact is that with the access to information these days no one should be asking 90% of the questions that get asked here. What makes it tolerable is that most come from hobbyists. But when a working "professional" asks a basic question that could be answered in 1 google search and two minutes of reading it is infuriating.
> 
> ...




Don't get me wrong Runnah - I don't think anyone who doesn't know the basics should start presenting themselves as a professional and charge money for their services, I'm not a big fan of anyone that doesn't strive to be good at what they do for a living.  My point here is that if someone asks for my help, they'll get it.  If they started a business and got in over their head, well I'm still going to try and help them out.  The fact that they are asking for my help to me means they are worthy of receiving it.   That is the only "bar" I set.

As I mentioned previously I do see Lew's original point.  However I also see something inherently dangerous with this line of thinking as well - I merely am advising that we guard against starting to think of ourselves as some sort of "gatekeepers" or "policeman" when it comes to who or who doesn't deserve to take a shot at earning money as a photographer.  So really all I'm saying is, Danger Will Robinson, Danger!  - Lol


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > 12sndsgood said:
> ...



So if I decide to help someone that starts a photography business even though they probably shouldn't have that should be sufficient right?   I mean if I'm the person with the knowledge and I choose to offer it to this person, then those of you that would have declined to offer the same knowledge will.. what exactly?  Decry me for offering it since it didn't meet your guidelines?  How do you determine who is "running to the forum to be bailed out"?  I mean isn't that pretty much a completely subjective standard in and of itself?


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

I see your reasoning and if you want to help every single soul no matter who or what they have done to be in the position they are in that is great. But that doesn't mean everyone is going to want to dole out there hard earned knowledge to every single soul that demands it.  I recently took on a girl as an apprentice of sorts. she comes out when I shoot and try's to learn as much as she can because she thinks she may want to go into business later at some point. so she is trying to learn all she can to see if that is something she will do. she comes out. holds lights, holds flashes, carries gear and she soaks up everything she can, her I will teach her as much as I know (not much) because she is putting in the time and effort. I'm not going to sit there and spend as much of my time with some kid who has no experience, already has opened a business and wants to come to me to learn something he's promised to do for someone else for money.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...



nobody will do anything. all they are saying is they won't be the one helping that person.   And if you read my very first post where I posted 2 questions that someone asks you can very easily see who needs bailed out. most of them admit openly that they do.  

This is a public forum where people choose to answer or choose not to.  there is no standard or rule that states if you know the answer you have to help.


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## Redeyejedi (Oct 31, 2013)

i have seen 'contractors' in the bigbox homeimpovement kennels, ask the guy with the apron how to do/complete jobs....makes me cringe, and feel sorry for the "contractor's" client.

i think it comes down to two things:
what defines a professional photographer
and laziness 

i don't consider a professional contractor a pro solely because he/she drives a full size pickup and has a table saw in the bed, the same i don't call a photographer a pro because he/she has a full-frame flagship rig and a speedlight.

....and the the unwillingness to make the inquiry in a search bar prior to making a forum post. (this happens on many many boards)....and then read. then re-search.


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## Tailgunner (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> I don't really care.  As long as the fauxtographer delivers photos like his/her portfolio, then why does it matter?  If someone sees their portfolio and they want to pay for photos like that, so what?



The fauxtogrpaher is probably using fauxtos in his/her portfolio.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> Ok.. I should probably warn you in advance that arguing logic with me is not the best idea you've probably ever come up with, but since you asked for it:



I stopped reading right about here. No offense, but I'm not going to read your novel when you start your post like this.


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## Tailgunner (Oct 31, 2013)

Majeed Badizadegan said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Ok.. I should probably warn you in advance that arguing logic with me is not the best idea you've probably ever come up with, but since you asked for it:
> ...



You got further than I did. 

Anyone got the Cliff Notes?


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Majeed Badizadegan said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Ok.. I should probably warn you in advance that arguing logic with me is not the best idea you've probably ever come up with, but since you asked for it:
> ...



So be it - lol.. as to offense, none taken.  I hope that at least some people will come to realize that there is a serious danger inherit in this line of thinking, but like everything else in life all I can do is point out what I see.  It's up to others to decide if they wish to look at it or not.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Tailgunner said:


> Majeed Badizadegan said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...



Judge not, lest ye be judged?  Also, it was Colonel Mustard in the conservatory with a candlestick.  Think that pretty much sums it up.  But hey, if you don't want a long dissertation on logic then don't throw it in my face.  I've spent entirely too much time with lawyers, judges, and other members of the legal profession to take that one lying down.  Call it a quirk.


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## terri (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > While I may agree with Lew and his reasoning I don't understand the broadcast. as nike say Lew, just do it
> ...



And for many, this is a cause for celebration.    :cheer:    The less moderating that has to be done around here due to someone's puffed-up notions of what is appropriate or not, the better.    Go for it, Lew!


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## Stevepwns (Oct 31, 2013)

This is why I don't do Portraits.  I take pictures of stuff I know I can shoot.......  and I sell prints.   I don't have a problem with someone charging for their pictures.  Just don't portray yourself as something you are not.


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## sleist (Oct 31, 2013)

If people are truly concerned about the lack of professionalism and standards within professional photography, then what needs to happen is the creation of a professional organization to establish these standards and _*educate the public*_ regarding the benefits of paying more for a photographer that belongs to that organization.  Right now, at least as I see it, all the pros with any clout are just feeding off the newbies to pad their own wallets while bitching about the state of photography.

The first sign of a dying profession is when the pros starting eating their young.


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## 12sndsgood (Oct 31, 2013)

sleist said:


> If people are truly concerned about the lack of professionalism and standards within professional photography, then what needs to happen is the creation of a professional organization to establish these standards and _*educate the public*_ regarding the benefits of paying more for a photographer that belongs to that organization. Right now, at least as I see it, all the pros with any clout are just feeding off the newbies to pad their own wallets while bitching about the state of photography.
> 
> The first sign of a dying profession is when the pros starting eating their young.




this doesn't really have anything to do with how much you pay, its more about if your in business, know what your doing.


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## Overread (Oct 31, 2013)

sleist said:


> The first sign of a dying profession is when the pros starting eating their young.



The moderating team would like to remind members that we don't condone the eating of other members of the site. It's rather messy and past experience shows that people always leave bits lying around, which only attracts more spambots.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > If people are truly concerned about the lack of professionalism and standards within professional photography, then what needs to happen is the creation of a professional organization to establish these standards and _*educate the public*_ regarding the benefits of paying more for a photographer that belongs to that organization. Right now, at least as I see it, all the pros with any clout are just feeding off the newbies to pad their own wallets while bitching about the state of photography.
> ...



Which really is a point I don't think anyone disagrees with here - however I think as some of us pointed out we do have concerns with how this sentiment might be applied, and were merely attempting to make the point that the application of this sort of thinking is fraught with a lot of serious problems and more likely to cause more difficulties than what it would eventually solve.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Overread said:


> sleist said:
> 
> 
> > The first sign of a dying profession is when the pros starting eating their young.
> ...



Ok.. great.  I guess that rules out any possibility of trying this new BBQ sauce then.

Killjoys.


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## Robin_Usagani (Oct 31, 2013)

So who will take pictures of all of these weddings that only have $400 budget for photography?  Someone has to do it.


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## sleist (Oct 31, 2013)

robbins.photo said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > sleist said:
> ...




So continue doing what you've been doing then.  Seems like that's been working well ....


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## sleist (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> So who will take pictures of all of these weddings that only have $400 budget for photography?  Someone has to do it.



Let the people that can't/won't join the organization work for peanuts. Professional organizations serve to maintain professional standards as well as professional pricing.


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> So who will take pictures of all of these weddings that only have $400 budget for photography?  Someone has to do it.



I could probably find Uncle Bob's phone number around here somewhere.  I'm sure he probably still owns that instamatic.. lol


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## robbins.photo (Oct 31, 2013)

sleist said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > 12sndsgood said:
> ...



I guess one man's "working well" is another's "lead balloon".. lol


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## limr (Oct 31, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> So who will take pictures of all of these weddings that only have $400 budget for photography?  Someone has to do it.



I'll take my own damn photos of my wedding and pocket the money! The money that was already mine!


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## astroNikon (Oct 31, 2013)




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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Taking a stand, and enjoying it, always seems to result in others loudly taking the opposite stance. I totally could not care less if those who believe in coddling the skills bereft new pro answer every idiotic question.

But what that does do is provide terrible models for every other person who reads and sees that any question, and I mean any question, gets answered. So we get more transients who come back for one or two questions before being eaten by sharks ( I'm dreaming on that one.)

Then the board gets flooded with terrible pictures with questions on how to repair the irreparable. So better photographers won't post because they don't see any benefit in being seen and they won't get any intelligent feedback.

What I would rather see is people be told how to find information and indolence not being rewarded. I would rather the spiral be pushed upward rather than down.


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## Derrel (Oct 31, 2013)

Considering that not many paying customers are willing to pay even a dime for "street photography", the deliberate witholding of one person's viewpoint on how to best shoot assignments for paying customers is likely to cause zero net negative impact for the bottom line of noobs seeking guidance, assistance, or advice.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Ooh, derel posted again.
I'm certain it's something terribly clever.
Perhaps it's love.
Perhaps he'll send flowers?


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## astroNikon (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm a content expert for another big forum out there but in the musical instrument arena.  The same problems exist there just in another profession.


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## imagemaker46 (Oct 31, 2013)

The profession is already dying a slow death, it has been that way since digital took over from film.  I know there are lots that will constantly argue the usual crap about changing and adapting to a changing world of photography, but there really is only so much a person can change.  We can buy the best gear, buy the ads, call clients, but we still deal with the professional amateurs, the full time job weekend players.  If someone has developed the skills over time to do the job well and compete on an even playing field, shoots and acts as a professional then fine, but this is just not the case.  Buy a camera, read a book, look for a way to pay for the camera and the book.

I could go on and on about the amateur/professional situation but I just end up getting frustrated at the responses I hear back from the 99%ers on this forum that see nothing wrong with working for free, working for very little money, the ones that don't and aren't willing to understand the professional side.

I just stopped responding to all the uninformed stupid questions that are being asked every day, not just on this forum, but in the real world.  There is no point.  I just do my job the best that I can, I try to find new clients, and keep the ones I have happy.  I don't fight to change what can't be changed, or argue what can't be argued.


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## Derrel (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Ooh, derel posted again.
> I'm certain it's something terribly clever.
> Perhaps it's love.
> Perhaps he'll send flowers?




I love the deliberate mis-spelling of my name, Lew! You're like a junior high school girl who's on her first box of feminine products!


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## Juga (Oct 31, 2013)

This is honestly the BEST forum I have ever joined! No sarcasm. Personalities abundant!


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## sleist (Oct 31, 2013)

Juga said:


> This is honestly the BEST forum I have ever joined!



I feel sorry for you.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Oops, derrel posted again.
Wow.
I could report him for stalking but this kind of man-crush is really rather flattering.


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## JohnS. (Oct 31, 2013)

So wait.......you're not automatically a pro if you own a DSLR? Shenanigans...


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

Juga said:


> This is honestly the BEST forum I have ever joined! No sarcasm. Personalities abundant!



Yes, isn't it great?
You get to interact with people you'd never even talk to in real life - except of course to tell them to spend it on food not drugs.


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## sashbar (Oct 31, 2013)

JohnS. said:


> So wait.......you're not automatically a pro if you own a DSLR? Shenanigans...



Nope. For that you need fast expensive lenses.


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## Derrel (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I've made a personal and non-momentous decision.
> 
> If someone makes a post, asking a basic question (in my estimation) that they really should know and they are already taking money for photography, I will immediately put them on 'ignore'.
> 
> ...



Here you go...a whole post devoted to what you did here today...*what's known as a "pre-emptive flounce".*

The Anti-Flounce - Julie Tarp - Open Salon


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2013)

As totally enjoyable this has been, I have to go now - I am going to NYC to shoot for the weekend and I need to pack, etc.

I have appointed Terri and Overread to be in control in my absence.
And they have been known to be very strict.


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## Juga (Oct 31, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Juga said:
> 
> 
> > This is honestly the BEST forum I have ever joined! No sarcasm. Personalities abundant!
> ...


 
Well that is the internetz these days. Except I think it would be interesting to sit down and talk with some of you about what you have seen and experienced. IDK, maybe it is just a nostalgic notion but I think sharing experiences is the only way to pass on knowledge that can't be learned in books.


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## SCraig (Oct 31, 2013)

I feel for you.  I really do.  True professional photographers are disappearing and being replaced by the Christmas Pros (those who get their first camera for Christmas and hang up a shingle before New Year's Day).  It doesn't have to be that way though, this is not the first profession to face the problem.  It may be one of the most widespread though.

The problem is that none of those who CAN do something are NOT doing anything about it.  That would be the full-time pros, the professional organizations, and other interested parties.  MAKE being a full-time pro a big deal.  MAKE being a member of a professional organization mean something.  Lobby for some sort of professional recognition or registration. MAKE your voice heard.  You guys are the ONLY ones who can do something about it and if you don't then nobody will.



imagemaker46 said:


> The profession is already dying a slow death, it has been that way since digital took over from film.  I know there are lots that will constantly argue the usual crap about changing and adapting to a changing world of photography, but there really is only so much a person can change.  We can buy the best gear, buy the ads, call clients, but we still deal with the professional amateurs, the full time job weekend players.  If someone has developed the skills over time to do the job well and compete on an even playing field, shoots and acts as a professional then fine, but this is just not the case.  Buy a camera, read a book, look for a way to pay for the camera and the book.
> 
> I could go on and on about the amateur/professional situation but I just end up getting frustrated at the responses I hear back from the 99%ers on this forum that see nothing wrong with working for free, working for very little money, the ones that don't and aren't willing to understand the professional side.
> 
> I just stopped responding to all the uninformed stupid questions that are being asked every day, not just on this forum, but in the real world.  There is no point.  I just do my job the best that I can, I try to find new clients, and keep the ones I have happy.  I don't fight to change what can't be changed, or argue what can't be argued.


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## sashbar (Oct 31, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> The profession is already dying a slow death, it has been that way since digital took over from film.  I know there are lots that will constantly argue the usual crap about changing and adapting to a changing world of photography, but there really is only so much a person can change.  We can buy the best gear, buy the ads, call clients, but we still deal with the professional amateurs, the full time job weekend players.  If someone has developed the skills over time to do the job well and compete on an even playing field, shoots and acts as a professional then fine, but this is just not the case.



How an amateur is supposed to compete with a pro on an even playing field if he has to work 5 days a week? It is like saying - well, NBA is dying a slow death, because there are lots of amateurs playing basketball on weekends.. full time job weekends basketball players.. they are so dangerous.. Cmon, if a weekend shooter beats the seasoned pro, it says a lot about the pro.


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## table1349 (Oct 31, 2013)




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## Overread (Oct 31, 2013)

Thankfully we won't be hitting the (flying) iceberg today and I think that since the initial statement is made (and now it seems read by all) we can move on since the thread seems to be taking a course down old pathways anyhow.


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