# New lighting, where do I start? :)



## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

So I have always used natural lighting but decided that I would get some studio lighting. I know I need a light meter but in the mean time how can I practice without one as I need to save up for a few weeks! Any pointers? Sorry I know this is a bit vague but even some links to some videos that will help or tutorials would be great  Thanks


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

Have you searched the forum yet? This question is asked every week.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Have you searched the forum yet? This question is asked every week.



Thanks for your completely pointless answer. Are you trying to say every time someone wants some advice they should trawl through old posts? I am a young mum trying to get help with my photography. I don't need you saying stupid things and being a smart ass... Hey maybe this whole forum should be abolished and we should all just youtube and google stuff?! Your comment is as I said pointless. But hey if this is how you get off, then please carry on......


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## Kbarredo (Aug 1, 2011)

You don't need a light meter. Although it makes things much faster. Youtube lighting technique on youtube that's how I started. Do u know how to read a histogram


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> You don't need a light meter. Although it makes things much faster. Youtube lighting technique on youtube that's how I started. Do u know how to read a histogram



Heya, oh OK lots of people keep saying I do but I wanted to attempt without it until I got one anyway. OK great I will look on there. No I don't. I have joined here as I need to get more technical with my photography as I have kind of just experimented and not read into stuff much or got much advice and have come to a dead end, hence joining on here. 

Thank you for your response


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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> > Have you searched the forum yet? This question is asked every week.
> ...


See, in another thread, you were going on and on about forum etiquette. It's also good forum etiquette to use the search function provided by the forum.


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## Derrel (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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> > Have you searched the forum yet? This question is asked every week.
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PLONK...


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

If you have nothing useful to add then go spout off somewhere else. My etiquette is fine, I was simply looking for advice which I believe is why this forum is here. Now kindly leave me alone! I am bored of people like you on here and I have only been here five minutes. Whilst this may be a large part of your daily lives coming on here and knit picking it certainly isn't mine. You can go on and on but please do it somewhere I am not...

Why couldn't you of ignored my thread or been polite like the person above who actually helped. Manners cost nothing.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> You can go on and on but please do it somewhere I am not...


But, but, but I was here first!


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## lyonsroar (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Are you trying to say every time someone wants some advice they should trawl through old posts? .


Yes.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > You can go on and on but please do it somewhere I am not...
> ...



Not on my post you weren't. You have the maturity of a school boy and yet I bet you are some 40 odd year old boring man sat behind his computer screen pretending to be some one he is not. You would not be this rude to someone in the street would you yet because you can hide you act like an idiot. GOOD BYE


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## Gaerek (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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> > Have you searched the forum yet? This question is asked every week.
> ...



It wasn't a pointless answer. There is an absolute treasure trove of information packed into this forum. It's not like the only relevant things in photography are on Page 1, Beginners forum, TPF. Do you think you're the first person to ask that question? Everyone totally understands the point of a forum is to exchange ideas, but taking the initiative for yourself can be very rewarding when you find that nugget of information you've been looking for. This forum is not your personal google. There are real people who have real jobs and real lives beyond this forum. Most of the time, the best way to find what you're looking for is to search for, and discover it yourself, not ride "on the shoulders of giants".

EDIT: And while we're at it, and before you ignore me also, maybe you should go read this: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...-then-shall-we-just-let-blind-lead-blind.html


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

lyonsroar said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > Are you trying to say every time someone wants some advice they should trawl through old posts? .
> ...



Go play with some camera lights or something. YET ANOTHER USELESS COMMENT. Good bye also. I guess the ignore button is going to come in handy. hey maybe if you all come on here and ***** eventually I will just see answers and posts from people that have some manners and are willing to share their knowledge. That would be great


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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Yeah I didn't think it was my personal google. I figured it was a place I could get help. I have looked through stuff and yes I have gone past page one. Stop assuming stuff... I have had about five people inbox me since I have put this up with great links and things and advising me to ignore all the people who like to act all high and mighty. So whilst you type away at me with more USELESS stuff Ia m getting the help I asked for which is all I really care about.


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## lyonsroar (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Yeah I didn't think it was my personal google.



No, you just thought _everyone else_ was your personal google.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

lyonsroar said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > Yeah I didn't think it was my personal google.
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How old are you? Do you always have to have the last word? Please do me a favour and go away. People post on here because it a place where people are willing to share their knowledge and to help each other out. I am not helping you and you are not helping me in any way so lets leave it at that. Thanks for your useless input once again.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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See, again, you were commenting on other people rudeness, yet look how rude you are.

Seriously. Take a good look at yourself, and responses here.

Have I called you names? Have I made false assumptions about your character? Did I get all bent out of shape, like you, in response.

No. I have not.

You are the one that is rude.


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## Derrel (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Gaerek said:
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Nice! People are helping you off-list. Good for you!


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2011)

Come on people!

What is so hard.

Just answer the question;



> New lighting, where do I start?



At the beginning, of course!

All lighting is natural and made of exactly the same thing - photons.

So called 'natural' lighting is nuclear powered (nuclear fusion to be specific). 'Natural' lighting is old light. It's about 8 1/2 minutes old by the time it gets here, and since the source so far away (about 93,000,000 milesN, it is apparently quite small, making direct 'natural' light quite harsh and almost useless for making high quality photographs without it being modified.


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> hey maybe if you all come on here and ***** eventually I will just see answers and posts from people that have some manners and are willing to share their knowledge. That would be great



No, you're probably just going to get more people telling you how rude *you're* being.

Might as well put me on the ignore list now and save yourself some time later when I make a valid suggestion that will probably piss you off. :er:


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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I always try to be polite and courteous. Look at how I spoke to the nice poster on here who offered me some help. I was polite. If someone is rude to me I eventually going to have to tell them how I feel or they will just keep on and on. Please just go away. I do not care for your pointless rambling. You have no manners so I will not be polite. You are a rude person who appears to take his internet persona a little too seriously. Bye now.... I will put you on my ignore list along with the rest so feel free to hijack MY post some more but I won't see it so you can natter amongst yourselves. Or you could try working on your manners then maybe people like me wouldn't have to tell you you are an idiot.


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)




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## subscuck (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> hey maybe if you all come on here and ***** eventually I will just see answers and posts from people that don't know any more than me and would share their knowledge if they had any. That would be great



FTFY


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

e.rose said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> 
> > hey maybe if you all come on here and ***** eventually I will just see answers and posts from people that have some manners and are willing to share their knowledge. That would be great
> ...



Gosh I was wondering when you would join in. There is a pattern forming  I was never rude to start with. Maybe step back and look at how you have all spoken to me. You are all hypocrites. This is an internet forum based around people getting help with photography. Not somewhere for you all to lay into people who aren't familiar around here yet. I will ad you o my ignore list too. feel free to waste your time rambling too. Have fun


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

subscuck said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > hey maybe if you all come on here and ***** eventually I will just see answers and posts from people that don't know any more than me and would share their knowledge if they had any. That would be great
> ...



Translation please?


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> e.rose said:
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You were.



vonstarrphoto said:


> I will ad you o my ignore list too.


 
Glad to see you're receptive to SOME advice.  



vonstarrphoto said:


> feel free to waste your time rambling too. Have fun



Will do!


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## subscuck (Aug 1, 2011)

e.rose said:


> subscuck said:
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Good Lord, Em. I thought you were hipper than that. Fixed That For You.


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## NikonME (Aug 1, 2011)

I find these threads very much like the military. Once people are torn down, they either are weak and quit, or they accept it.. Once they accept it, they are built up and made to feel like they are bulletproof.

Von, Stop resisting..


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

subscuck said:


> e.rose said:
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Nah.  I only know emoticons.  Not acronyms.

It probably would have helped had I read the quoted text... I probably would have gotten it using that context clue.  :lmao:


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## Gaerek (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> I always try to be polite and courteous. (SNIP!) Or you could try working on your manners then maybe people like me wouldn't have to tell you_* you are an idiot*_.



That is neither polite, nor corteous!

And Bitter hasn't once been rude to you. He was trying to help you get better yourself rather than try to ride on the coattails of others. Everyone who you've called rude so far, has been perfectly polite. You're the one that reacted emotionally, and rudely. I suppose it's my turn for ignore now that I've been courteous and polite to you.


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## subscuck (Aug 1, 2011)

Just curious, but, is there a limit to how many members your ignore list will hold?


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > I always try to be polite and courteous. (SNIP!) Or you could try working on your manners then maybe people like me wouldn't have to tell you_* you are an idiot*_.
> ...



BANHAMMER! layball:

Okay.  Well.  Ignorehammer.


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

subscuck said:


> Just curious, but, is there a limit to how many members your ignore list will hold?



We're about to find out.


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## lyonsroar (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> How old are you? Do you always have to have the last word? Please do me a favour and go away. People post on here because it a place where people are willing to share their knowledge and to help each other out. I am not helping you and you are not helping me in any way so lets leave it at that. Thanks for your useless input once again.



Either one of two things is happening:
(color coded for easy reference)

1.)  Your ignore button is not functioning properly as I thought I was already put on your ignore list.
2.)  You lack the fortitude to actually ignore me.

If #1, I would contact a moderator to have that problem resolved.
If #2, well, there's not really a whole lot I can do about that.



Also I took the liberty of pointing out the search button.  I made that red circle and associated effluence in Photoshop.  
Ya know how I learned how to use Photoshop?  _I searched for it._


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## Gaerek (Aug 1, 2011)

Bitter, I'm sorry to have to tell you this. But you are an idiot. Take your years of experience in art, and your knowledge/experience with photography, and leave. You do nothing but post useless comments. A random newbie photographer on the Internet says so, so it must be true.


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## frisii (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> So I have always used natural lighting but decided that I would get some studio lighting. I know I need a light meter but in the mean time how can I practice without one as I need to save up for a few weeks! Any pointers? Sorry I know this is a bit vague but even some links to some videos that will help or tutorials would be great  Thanks



You can bracket shots, trial and error until you have a handheld meter. Which lights do you have and what other lighting equipment also? Give us more idea about the set-up and objectives.


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2011)

subscuck said:


> Just curious, but, is there a limit to how many members your ignore list will hold?


I don't know.

I've never needed to have more than 5 or 6 on there at a time, because so many that get put there disappear from TPF, so in short order I can usually delete them one at a time and put new ones in their place.


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2011)

Consider how did Bitter got over 1000 'Likes'.

In believe he has more 'Likes' than anyone else on the forums.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

I also have more people on my ignore list than anyone! Even more than VonRudeMom I'll bet!


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

Probably because Bitter is "the man"
But you're also "the man", KmH :thumbup:

EDIT: for example of "the man-liness"



Bitter Jeweler said:


> I also have more people on my ignore list than anyone! Even more than VonRudeMom I'll bet!



I kind of liked "Baron von Foto" also...


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## e.rose (Aug 1, 2011)

Quentin_Moyer said:


> Probably because Bitter is "the man"
> But you're also "the man", KmH :thumbup:
> 
> EDIT: for example of "the man-liness"
> ...



Quentin... where is "El Skook"?  

I'm from PA too...


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

It's an often derogatory term for "Schuylkill County", but the inhabitants seem to love it, with their "Skook" tee shirts and all.
Gotta love that coal region pride. Coal and beer.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Aug 1, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Quentin... where is "El Skook"?  I'm from PA too...


Did you ask Jeeves?


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

e.rose said:


> Quentin... where is "El Skook"?
> 
> I'm from PA too...



Hang on, hang on.....  Let me Google that for you...


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## Quentin_Moyer (Aug 1, 2011)

If it weren't for TPF, I would've never discovered Let Me Google That For You.
Thank you TPF :thumbup:


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> So I have always used natural lighting but decided that I would get some studio lighting.


For what kind of photography? Continuous, or strobe lights? Do you need an on-location capability?

What is the size of the camera room, particularly the ceiling height? 

How much money can we spend?



vonstarrphoto said:


> I know I need a light meter but in the mean time how can I practice without one as I need to save up for a few weeks!


Uh, you don't *need* a hand held light meter, but a hand held meter can save a lot of time perfecting setups. A hand held meter is also a time saver for setting up 'natural' light photography too, so I'm really surprised you don't already have one. How do you measure incident light without one? What metering mode(s) do you use with your cameras?



vonstarrphoto said:


> Sorry I know this is a bit vague but even some links to some videos that will help or tutorials would be great  Thanks


Oh, it's way more than just a bit vague.

I get the distinct impression you don't know a whole lot about photographic lighting, of any type, 'natural' or otherwise.

But here is some lighting reference material that I often link to, some of it I link to several times a day, right here on TPF;

Light: Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting 

Photographic Lighting Equipment: A Comprehensive Guide for Digital Photographers

Minimalist Lighting: Professional Techniques for Location Photography

Oh gee. I forgot to check.  Do you have an effective color managed workflow, calibrated eiditng/printing tools, and soft-proofing?


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

frisii said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > So I have always used natural lighting but decided that I would get some studio lighting. I know I need a light meter but in the mean time how can I practice without one as I need to save up for a few weeks! Any pointers? Sorry I know this is a bit vague but even some links to some videos that will help or tutorials would be great  Thanks
> ...



Heya thanks for responding 

What does bracketing involve? I have these lights Elinchrom D-Lite it 4 Studio 2 Go Set (20805) - Warehouse Express and just a large silver/gold/white reflector, that is about it really! I have a wireless trigger for the lights too  And thank you for your friend request


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 1, 2011)

KmH said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > So I have always used natural lighting but decided that I would get some studio lighting.
> ...



I just usually play around with my 50mm yes my monitor is calibrated with spyder three. I am here to learn the more technical aspects of photography as I mentioned before. Thanks for the links.


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## kundalini (Aug 1, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Heya thanks for responding


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

Look up how to read a histogram in google. Its hard to explain but have you ever pressed a button and a weird graph pops up. That's the histogram. If you learn to read it properly it is more accurate than the built in meter on the camera. Also stop arguing with these guys you can't win. They could straight out call you a retard and others will say they weren't being rude. Believe me I know. If a question is too easy they say google it. When a question is too long to explain they say they don't want to take the time.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

First off do you want a portable lighting set? I know you said studio but are you going to be using it for outdoor on location shots as well. if you are mostly using it for studio lighting a monolight set is much cheaper than buying the parts individually.  Also monolights have a Modelling lamp as well as the flash bulb so you know what where the flash will light up when it fires. speed lights on the other hand are very portable but you have to guess where the light will land and with beginners its hard as hell. continuous lighting is the cheapest and what you see is what you get in the pics. But they suck because you need to keep the shutter low because they are not as bright as flashes. This is ok when your model is an adult or not living but horrible when they are children because it creates alot of motion blur. Read up on "how to stop motion with flash". Sorry I'm referring you so much on google but I'm using my galaxy phone and swype is starting to hurt.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 2, 2011)

I gave up arguing with them ages ago and let them carry on! lol. It is pointless and yet they happily produced a few pages of insults whilst I was gone, really can't be bothered to read them so it is no skin off my back  Thanks for taking your time to explain stuff  I already have these lights  Elinchrom D-Lite it 4 Studio 2 Go Set (20805) - Warehouse Express. OK cool I shall just google some stuff, it is just nice to talk to actual people not a search engine which some people don't seem to get either  Thanks


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## The_Traveler (Aug 2, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> *OK cool I shall just google some stuff*



But isn't that what people suggested?
Aren't you giving in to the mob?
Screw that Interweb stuff.
No, stand your ground and insist on getting first hand instruction.

There is a small defect in your reasoning.
Experienced people have probably given this advice many times before and may be too burnt out to respond or may even have written it down somewhere.

Inexperienced people might be the only ones anxious to spout their new - and defective knowledge.
But that won't be important, I guess, as long as you are getting the information from an actual person (who may not be a real photographer although he does play one on the Intertube.)

Best regards from someone who knows very little about lighting and thus can't help but does enjoy watching you make a small fool of yourself.


Lew


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
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> > *OK cool I shall just google some stuff*
> ...


 But that is the point of this forum. The experienced ones teach and the newbies learn. The search bar is like the bookshelf in the classroom. The "pros" are the the teachers. Now if you love photography and spreading the knowledge then do so. Continue to teach and help others. But how many people here have been in a class and asked the professor something only to have him say "look it up yourself I dont feel like teaching you". If you are burnt out on teaching others then why must you let the world know. We like to ask questions here because its interactive. Tell me would you rather read a book or have the author teach you and engage with you in person. When we ask questions on this forum its so we can ask more questions if we still dont get it. I just dont understand how people think. It takes more energy to open a page and write 300 words than to just keep scrolling down. In reality they click due to 3 reasons. They want to make a smartass comments for more likes, they want everyone to know how much they are annoyed and they like starting drama. 
If you do not have the patience and capability to teach then do not do so. All many of us ask is to get out of the way of those who have no problem spouting the same stuff over and over can teach us. Realistically how many people here were spoon fed the information they know. You think scientists today said hmmmm maybe Ill pick up a biology book and learn to create a new form of anti biotics. No they were taught by a person in a room, spoon fed information. All the assignments were just ways to test how well they can recall information taught to them.
Now many of you can sit there and call others lazy but you have no idea what their situation is. I have been called lazy here by people who couldnt last 5 minutes in my 4 hour mma workout on top of pulling a 10 hour job. Unfortunately anonymity allows people spout their poison without thinking. All we can do is ignore smart asses.
Now I can argue until Im blue in the face but people will never change their attitude. People will always follow those that have more experience than them. If derrel or kmh said its better to take pictures blindfolded, many people here would probably do so. Going against some people in this place is like walking into a chapel and calling the priest a satanist. The followers would blindly defend them to the death.


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## Starskream666 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm guessing you're a single mum


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## Gaerek (Aug 2, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> But that is the point of this forum. The experienced ones teach and the newbies learn. The search bar is like the bookshelf in the classroom. The "pros" are the the teachers. Now if you love photography and spreading the knowledge then do so. Continue to teach and help others.



I think most totally agree with you here.



> But how many people here have been in a class and asked the professor something only to have him say "look it up yourself I dont feel like teaching you".



And here, your analogy fails. Why?

1) A professor, or teacher gets paid to teach students. Someone on a forum is doing it for free, using their precious time.
2) A professor, or teacher uses the same curriculum class after class. They don't keep re-writing it for every class. A forum post could be analogous to a curriculum.
3) In most college classes (have you ever been?) I have been in, there is a lecture. However, there is also usually assigned reading, and research assignments. Essentially, there is a "look it up yourself" component to many college classes.



> If you are burnt out on teaching others then why must you let the world know.



Wouldn't you be burnt out of answering the same questions over and over again with nothing to show for it? There's no need to answer the same questions over and over again, when they've already been answered suffciently.



> We like to ask questions here because its interactive. Tell me would you rather read a book or have the author teach you and engage with you in person.



Why do you think authors write down information instead of tell each and every individual person the information contained within? I mean, it would be better to be taught by the author instead, right? I guess we should just get rid of books and all written text and let authors instead just let people be interactive with them. Again, a flawed argumment.



> When we ask questions on this forum its so we can ask more questions if we still dont get it.



Then bump an old thread, or link the old thread in a new post and say, "I read this post, but it doesn't quite answer my question. Here is what I don't understand..." It's quite simple.



> I just dont understand how people think. It takes more energy to open a page and write 300 words than to just keep scrolling down. In reality they click due to 3 reasons. They want to make a smartass comments for more likes, they want everyone to know how much they are annoyed and they like starting drama.



What's the third reason? I think you're way off base. I enjoy helping people. But there are many people here who think "help" is synonymous with "hand holding." I don't care about likes, and I don't care about drama. But with people can't take the couple minutes to help themselves, and expect the veterans here to continually answer the same basic questions over and over again, it upsets me. I'll call you out on this.




> If you do not have the patience and capability to teach then do not do so. All many of us ask is to get out of the way of those who have no problem spouting the same stuff over and over can teach us. Realistically how many people here were spoon fed the information they know. You think scientists today said hmmmm maybe Ill pick up a biology book and learn to create a new form of anti biotics. No they were taught by a person in a room, spoon fed information. All the assignments were just ways to test how well they can recall information taught to them.



And this is why you and MANY others have alienated some of the best people you possibly can. People are ignoring the wrong people. And that's fine, I suppose. But that would be like ignoring Ansel Adams while he gives a lecture on photography. Keep listening to the people who don't mind answering your questions, and fail to learn. Keep ignoring those that actually know what they are talking about.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 2, 2011)

Starskream666 said:


> I'm guessing you're a single mum



Haha how presumptuous we are! No not that it is any of your business but I am not thanks  I have a partner


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## pgriz (Aug 2, 2011)

It&#8217;s a little bit more complicated than &#8220;teachers teach, newbies learn&#8221;.  The process of learning can be thought of as a journey, with a starting point, a destination, and a route that will take you from here to there.  Newbies typically don&#8217;t know where they are, since they haven&#8217;t learned to recognize the scenery around them.  And when you don&#8217;t know what you don&#8217;t know, then you can be thinking that you&#8217;re much further up the trail than you actually are.  So the first challenge is for the teacher and the student to agree that they are at the same starting point.  That&#8217;s when the name-calling starts:

_&#8220;Hey teach, look how high I am!&#8221;_
_&#8220;Pftt.  You&#8217;re in a ditch, and you&#8217;ve gotten out of the swampy water and are getting up the slope of the road shoulder.&#8221;_
_&#8220;No, I&#8217;m not!  I can see the river that I have crossed, and now up going up the foothills of that mountain!&#8221;_
_&#8220;Um, that &#8220;river&#8221; is two feet wide, filled with semi-stagnant water, and the &#8220;foothills&#8221; you&#8217;re climbing are some eroded road shoulders.&#8221;_
_&#8220;Teach &#8211; you&#8217;re not being very helpful!&#8221;_
_&#8220;Well, I&#8217;m trying to explain to you where you are, and you don&#8217;t want to know it.  And until you get out of that ditch, we aren&#8217;t going anywhere.&#8221;_
_&#8220;uh, you&#8217;re a fraud.&#8221;_
_&#8220;And you are lazy.&#8221;_

If we agree on a starting point, and we have a specific destination in mind, then we can plot a route to it.  There can be more than one route to the objective, but chances are, if you follow the route the teacher outlined, you&#8217;ll get there.  Of course, students can veer off the route and try to do it themselves.  If they are lucky, they&#8217;ll find a shortcut, but usually, they will end up on a much more difficult path, or even in a dead-end ravine.  It really helps to know the terrain, and the newbie just doesn&#8217;t have this information.


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 2, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> vonstarrphoto said:
> 
> 
> > *OK cool I shall just google some stuff*
> ...



Haha! I put I will just go google it but that wasn't hat I wanted to do as google doesn't interact with you, that's the whole point of this forum. Please kindly all go away?! I haven't hijacked your threads so why do it to mine?! Why don't you go do something useful instead of picking on me?! Seriously this is so boring now!! I have got help, that is all I wanted hence joining this forum. So your petty and juvenile digs at me are lame and misjudged. tarah!


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## vonstarrphoto (Aug 2, 2011)

"OK cool I shall just google some stuff, it is just nice to talk to actual people not a search engine which some people don't seem to get either  Thanks" READ PROPERLY


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> And this is why you and MANY others have alienated some of the best people you possibly can. People are ignoring the wrong people. And that's fine, I suppose. But that would be like ignoring Ansel Adams while he gives a lecture on photography. Keep listening to the people who don't mind answering your questions, and fail to learn. Keep ignoring those that actually know what they are talking about.


 Oh really and how many times has ansel adams said "you lack intelligence and common sense." in any of his books. Books are written because it allows the knowledge to be spread faster. As for instructors being paid you are very wrong. Ever heard of an apprenticeship. The journeymen teach apprentice in return for their help and commitment. Yes I have been In a college class. I was taking first year psychology. the assignments are not assigned because the prof is too tired or grumpy to teach. It is assigned so you can apply the info you have just learned or to help the information stick in your head a little better. It has been proven that being told something and reading it up in a book and applying it can have a dramatic difference in learning speeds. Its not the method that is the problem. Its the reason behind it.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

pgriz said:


> It&#8217;s a little bit more complicated than &#8220;teachers teach, newbies learn&#8221;.  The process of learning can be thought of as a journey, with a starting point, a destination, and a route that will take you from here to there.  Newbies typically don&#8217;t know where they are, since they haven&#8217;t learned to recognize the scenery around them.  And when you don&#8217;t know what you don&#8217;t know, then you can be thinking that you&#8217;re much further up the trail than you actually are.  So the first challenge is for the teacher and the student to agree that they are at the same starting point.  That&#8217;s when the name-calling starts:
> 
> _&#8220;Hey teach, look how high I am!&#8221;_
> _&#8220;Pftt.  You&#8217;re in a ditch, and you&#8217;ve gotten out of the swampy water and are getting up the slope of the road shoulder.&#8221;_
> ...


 But that is not the usual problem here. If it was in a tpf way. 
"Hey teach look how high I am!"
"You're an idiot"
" Why do you think Im an idiot?"
"You figure it out" 

I know people here are tired of repeating themselves in life. But here is something to put your anger into perspective. I GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE FOR A LIVING! Do you see me freaking out on newbies for asking repetitive questions, no. I click on the thread and see if I can help. If i cant I hit back. If I do know some stuff about that topic I help out.


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## Gaerek (Aug 2, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> Oh really and how many times has ansel adams said "you lack intelligence and common sense." in any of his books.



How many old threads and google searches say that? Again the point just whizzed right over your head. People here are wiling to help, if you are willing to learn and do some footwork yourself. Unfortunately, you and others don't want to be bothered to do the footwork. You want the easy path. Is it so wrong to expect someone to actually do some research before trying to ask the same questions that have been asked hundreds if times?



> Books are written because it allows the knowledge to be spread faster. As for instructors being paid you are very wrong. Ever heard of an apprenticeship. The journeymen teach apprentice in return for their help and commitment.




You used the analogy of a college professor. Now you want to change your analogy? Cool, I'll show you the flaws in this one also. An apprentice doesn't just sit around learning. He is expected to GIVE BACK to his master with labor, work, products he's created, etc. It is a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic relationship. Both apprentice and master are getting something out of the relationship. You even admitted this. You are arguing for a parasitic relationship where a newbie gets to take, take, take while giving nothing back, simply because he's a newbie. The vets here give a lot of their time to try to help people with practically NOTHING in return. This is nothing like an apprentice/master relationship.



> Yes I have been In a college class. I was taking first year psychology. the assignments are not assigned because the prof is too tired or grumpy to teach.



You've taken one class? If that's the case, you certainly aren't the authority on this. I have two complete degrees. I've been taking classes on and off for the past 12 years. When someone here asks someone to look something up themselves or work for themselves, its not because they are tired or grumpy, it's because:



> It is assigned so you can apply the info you have just learned or to help the information stick in your head a little better.



Amazing how that works. You have now admitted that doing work for yourself helps you learn things better, yet you still advocate doing things the easy way, relying on others to hand hold you through the basics? No wonder you aren't really learning much here...



> It has been proven that being told something and reading it up in a book and applying it can have a dramatic difference in learning speeds. Its not the method that is the problem. Its the reason behind it.



Really? Proven? Show me where you learned that. Keep in mind that no matter if you ask on the forum or look for it yourself, you are still reading it! The same learning style (if you believe in learning styles) are being applied!

I love how you disproved your own points in your post. It makes my job so much easier.


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## Kbarredo (Aug 2, 2011)

And how long did that wall of text take you? its not parasitic if the student helps spreads the knowledge in return.


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## Gaerek (Aug 2, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> And how long did that wall of text take you?



About 5 minutes. Too long for you to read?



> its not parasitic if the student helps spreads the knowledge in return.



If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The veteran (pro, whatever) gets nothing in return for his work. He gives but receives nothing. This is the definition of parasitic. People help here out of their own kindness and love of photography, while people like you ***** when they tell you to do some research on your own.

It's great that you want to help others in return, but that is not the same as an apprentice working for a journeyman.

Want to know how I learned photography? I worked for each and every bit of knowledge I have. I had a mentor. You could say I apprenticed under a mentor. I worked in his studio 20 hours a week for 6 months and never earned a dime. My work was repaid with knowledge, film and processing. Anything I've learned since then, I've actually done the legwork and researched. Occasionally, I'd ask for help, but only after I exhausted other types of research.

Anywho, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You just don't get it and you might not ever. I'll save my time for people who actually want to learn and get better, not those that are looking for the easy way out.


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## MissCream (Aug 2, 2011)

Wouldn't everyone just be reading it in a thread just posted Kbarredo? Searched or not, it's not like someone is in person showing it to you, it is still something you have to read.


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## The_Traveler (Aug 2, 2011)

Speaking as someone who taught in real life (bio-medical statistics), I used a text. 
My students were assigned chapters and then the class was given over to examples using our own area and clarification of issues that were unclear in the text. In point of fact, the teachers who merely regurgitated the text were the least enjoyable and the most unhelpful

Why would I want to repeat, over and over, material that had been written, edited, re-edited and corrected and then printed in excruciating detail?

But then again, my students were in doctoral studies or post-docs and they could actually read.


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## frisii (Aug 2, 2011)

@vonstarr
Bracketing is taking multiple shots of the same/similar situation but using variated settings..i.e shutter speed (exposure compensation), aperture, flash power, focal point.


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## NikonME (Aug 2, 2011)

Just to play devil's advocate for a second.. Wouldn't this thread be much shorter if we just posted links to all of the other threads just like this one already in this forum instead of trying to teach the offenders one at a time? 

I think two things would stop these type of threads..

#1: Newbs could search for their answer before posting questions.

#2: Members could refrain from replying at all if you don't want to reply to redundant questions. Just let the post die with 400+ Views and 0 Replies. I think newbs would get the point better that way and the forum would have less drama.

Just my 2 cents


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## vtf (Aug 2, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> "OK cool I shall just google some stuff, it is just nice to talk to actual people not a search engine which some people don't seem to get either  Thanks" READ PROPERLY



I am looking for a Canon 70x200 lens, I have spent hours reading reviews on the f4 and 2.8 versions, IS versions and searched ebay and vendors for prices. I have been on here and POTN looking at threads of people's opinions of the the build and image quality. I have done this for the past 3 months. About a month ago I had a thread where I asked for opinions for lenses specifically the 70x200 and also received some great suggestions on other lenses to add to my equipment list.
My point is: this forum is about discussion, you have to bring to the table all you know and could learn on your own to add to the discussion. This thread's direction  would've been different if you had said " I've read this book, watched this video and I am having difficulty getting the right shadowing in my lighting, I've posted a picture. I've placed my lights like this. Could someone elighten me, please."

I wish you well, but the forum will go the way it wants to go and very little change has occurred in the year I've been a member. Once you choose to fit into the forum the more you will learn useful information.


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## ghache (Aug 2, 2011)

This is the 500+ "Likes" club having a pool day! BRAVO TFP! Cute bunch hen!


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## ryan_caldero (Aug 2, 2011)

vonstarrphoto said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > vonstarrphoto said:
> ...



Wwwoooooow.....

I am starting to notice alot more negative cats on this site...

VonStarchicky - Try going on YOUTUBE and searching "Lighting techinques"... That way you get more visual guidance rather than some jerky throwing rocks and pulling your hair and saying "Neener-Neener"


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## Village Idiot (Aug 2, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> Speaking as someone who taught in real life (bio-medical statistics), I used a text.
> My students were assigned chapters and then the class was given over to examples using our own area and clarification of issues that were unclear in the text. In point of fact, the teachers who merely regurgitated the text were the least enjoyable and the most unhelpful
> 
> Why would I want to repeat, over and over, material that had been written, edited, re-edited and corrected and then printed in excruciating detail?
> ...



Yes. And even then, they may not have the best grasps of the information, how it works, and how to relate it to real world issues. That's why I quit the first college I was in. By my sophmore year, I was in 300 and 400 level networking classes with professors that did this. I asked when we were going to be able to apply this to real world situations and components and I was told that once we got a job in the real world, we would be able to. WTF good is that going to do? I would have had this piece of paper saying that I read all these books on how to administer a network, but if you hire me, I don't know what I'm doing? That was a waste of time and money.


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## Gaerek (Aug 2, 2011)

ghache said:
			
		

> This is the 500+ "Likes" club having a pool day! BRAVO TFP! Cute bunch hen!



You know someone got banned for posting a similar picture in a similar context yesterday? Reported...


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## Village Idiot (Aug 2, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Look up how to read a histogram in google. Its hard to explain but have you ever pressed a button and a weird graph pops up. That's the histogram. If you learn to read it properly it is more accurate than the built in meter on the camera. Also stop arguing with these guys you can't win. They could straight out call you a retard and others will say they weren't being rude. Believe me I know. If a question is too easy they say google it. When a question is too long to explain they say they don't want to take the time.



No it's not. Left is dark, right is light. If the bars clip at the left, you lose image data in the shadows, if the clip at the right, you get blown highlights. It shows where the brightness is in the image. That's the most basic explanation.



Kbarredo said:


> First off do you want a portable lighting set? I know you said studio but are you going to be using it for outdoor on location shots as well. if you are mostly using it for studio lighting a monolight set is much cheaper than buying the parts individually. Also monolights have a Modelling lamp as well as the flash bulb so you know what where the flash will light up when it fires. speed lights on the other hand are very portable but you have to guess where the light will land and with beginners its hard as hell. continuous lighting is the cheapest and what you see is what you get in the pics. But they suck because you need to keep the shutter low because they are not as bright as flashes. This is ok when your model is an adult or not living but horrible when they are children because it creates alot of motion blur. Read up on "how to stop motion with flash". Sorry I'm referring you so much on google but I'm using my galaxy phone and swype is starting to hurt.



:er:


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## ghache (Aug 2, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you really think i care? seriously.

Im just saying that these "likes" whores are acting like retarded childs and i used an image to say it...whats wrong?


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## Gaerek (Aug 2, 2011)

ghache said:
			
		

> Do you really think i care? seriously.
> 
> Im just saying that these "likes" whores are acting like retarded childs and i used an image to say it...whats wrong?



You don't care, but you cared enough to edit your post to explain yourself? If you truly don't know what's wrong with what you did, then I truly feel sorry for you. However, I think you do know what's wrong and that's exactly why you posted it.


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## ghache (Aug 2, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



have a cookie.
okbyethx


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## LaFoto (Aug 2, 2011)

When will these kind of threads finally end? I wonder... :scratch: 

Oh sigh ... I feel the Whining Forum needs to come out again...


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