# decision based on a single lens ... is it right?



## enerlevel (Mar 17, 2015)

hello all, 
 i am having a tough time deciding which camera and lens combo to buy. my options are based on everyday needs and also sometimes small paid weddings and ceremony.  my  cash is limited therefore i have broken down my needs to the following options.  

1) i could buy a nikon D700 + 24-85 VR lens along with a cheap Fujifilm X-A1 for normal everyday use.     

2) buy the Fujifilm X-T1 with 18-55mm kit lens and 35mm f1.4.   

just browsing yesterday, a canon 40mm Stm lens caught my eye....   and it opened me up for another option.  

3)  Canon 6D + 24-105mm and 40mm stm lens. 

basically traveling around with a big body and big lens is just overkill for me for normal everyday use. my shooting style mostly includes family pics...  i am a shooter which wouldnt tell my wife to stand alone and i would take a pic of her with some creamy bokah... rather i would stand with my wife and tell someone else to take a pic at F7-F8.. So that we both are nice and sharp...   with this 40mm lensm i could make the whole 6d setup small enough to travel everyday.. and also when i need it for weddings, my zoom lens could come in handy..

is it a good idea to base my whole decision just on the 40mm lens?    i know other brands do 35mm but are just to expensvie..


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## mmaria (Mar 17, 2015)

I use 6D+40mm
I think it's a great tiny piece of equipment


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## Ysarex (Mar 17, 2015)

The Canon 24-105 versus the Fuji 18-55: That one is a no contest. The only thing the Canon lens can do better than the Fuji lens is weigh twice as much. The Fuji 35mm f/1.4 is one of the best lenses of that class available on any camera.

I'd say your only contest here is between the D700 and the XT-1. So it would come down to do you want to carry a bigger heavier camera and then rely on another camera as well or just one smaller camera for everything.

Big differences between the Nikon and Fuji:

1. OVF versus EVF
2. Full frame versus APS-C
3. Sensor CFA

Item #1 is big. OVF is most photographer's preference. OVF forces a bigger, bulkier, more mechanically complicated camera with an increased sensor to lens flange distance. That means bigger lenses and wide angle lenses that don't typically perform as well (14mm Fuji X lens is best in class). It also effects the type of auto focus system used in the camera. The AF system in OVF cameras is superior (faster). The shorter sensor to lens flange distance in EVF systems typically means you can mount just about any lens on the camera with a suitable adapter. Removal of the reflex mirror means the camera's movable mechanical parts can be reduced dramatically. Removal of the reflex mirror means the camera's overall size and bulk can be reduced dramatically. I use an EVF camera now. The thing I miss the most? The OVF. So no easy answer.

Item #2 can matter for some photographers but be pretty meaningless for others. There's a difference in DOF such that the larger format can achieve slightly better shallow DOF. The larger sensor cameras are also going to have better low-light performance but we're talking about extremes where you'd find it necessary to use ISO values approaching 5 digits.

Item #3 is Fuji unique. The XT-1 uses Fuji's X-Trans sensor technology.  The sensor is Sony made but Fuji's CFA is not a standard Bayer array. If you intend to save and process the camera raw files then this difference will be a factor. Positives and negatives again: The X-Trans CFA goes a long way to equalizing the low light performance difference between FF and APS. In APS class cameras the Fuji's excel at low light performance. The X-Trans CFA is more complicated to demosaic and so there are fewer choices available in raw converters and a wider performance variation in raw converters. Because of the X-Trans CFA the Fuji cameras do not have a low pass filter.

Joe


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## goodguy (Mar 17, 2015)

Consider a used Nikon D610 with a fast used lens, it should be better then all other options and probably will be close financially.


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## fjrabon (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree with Joe that the clearest choice out of these is the D700 system v. a Fuji XT-1 system.  Basically see if you can shoot with an EVF only system and then an OVF system.  If you don't mind the EVF only, I say absolutely save the bulk and go with the Fuji system.  Simplifying your rig is always a great thing.  If I didnt sometimes shoot sports and need a great 80-200 f/2.8, I'd have probably already switched over to a mirrorless system by now.


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## Derrel (Mar 17, 2015)

I looked at the list and could not even begin to choose between those three options.


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## enerlevel (Mar 17, 2015)

thanks all for the reply, 
i have used the xt1 over the weekend.  one major problem which i have is that it just goes to Auto iso 6400. i normally use alot of auto iso while managing shutter and aperture. the other problem i faced was that when i want to use the flash, i pull the iso to 1600 which makes the EVF totally black..... and then when i click and the flash blinks, the pic is clean and well exposed... i dunno what i am doing wrong here ....
  the d700 and fuji together do look like a nice option tho....


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## astroNikon (Mar 17, 2015)

Don't forget, with the d700 (or any other Nikon FF) you can get the small AF-D lenses such as 24/2.8, 28/2.8, 35/2.8, 50/1.4 or 1.8 and have a nice "compact" camera too without a big lens sticking out.


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## KmH (Mar 17, 2015)

I would get the Nikon D700 and 24-85.


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## runnah (Mar 17, 2015)

The canon 24-105 is a great "L" series lens. It covers all the most popular focal lengths. It's well built and would be a perfect all around lens. It is heavy but not uncomfortably so.

I would however skip the 40mm. I have one and only use it when I want to do some quasi-macro shots. I would instead look at the 50mm 1.4 or the 35mm 2.0.

The nikon is also a good choice but I am not familiar with that lens.

The Fuji is super nice but I have found that mirror less cameras aren't "quite" there yet. If anything I'd go for the Sony A7 series.


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## jake337 (Mar 17, 2015)

What is your exact Budget?


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> The canon 24-105 is a great "L" series lens. It covers all the most popular focal lengths. It's well built and would be a perfect all around lens. It is heavy but not uncomfortably so.
> 
> I would however skip the 40mm. I have one and only use it when I want to do some quasi-macro shots. I would instead look at the 50mm 1.4 or the 35mm 2.0.
> 
> ...



Have you shot with an XT1?  Zack Arias did advertisements for Range Rover with it, amongst some other pretty huge clients.  Like what do you mean by "not quite there yet?"  Just wondering what this is based on?


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## runnah (Mar 18, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > The canon 24-105 is a great "L" series lens. It covers all the most popular focal lengths. It's well built and would be a perfect all around lens. It is heavy but not uncomfortably so.
> ...



To me the EVF is the biggest thing that needs to be fixed. Rapid movements and qucik action are still a bit tricky.

I think we are maybe 1-2 generations away from perfection.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> fjrabon said:
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But what are you basing this on, which models have you used? That's all I'm asking.


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## Derrel (Mar 18, 2015)

Some fascinating stuff discussed and shown here, RE the newest developments FujiFilm has made:

Fujifilm interview Secrets of apodization 5-stop IS OLED EVFs with 5-millisecond lag really and more


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## runnah (Mar 18, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> runnah said:
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Nope, haven't used one but I've seen and read lots of reviews.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Some fascinating stuff discussed and shown here, RE the newest developments FujiFilm has made:
> 
> Fujifilm interview Secrets of apodization 5-stop IS OLED EVFs with 5-millisecond lag really and more


Yeah, I read that about a month ago (yes, I obsessively google search everything that mentions my cameras).  The most recent Fuji EVFs are definitely a pretty big step forward.  500 candela and 400% increase in DR is game changing for EVF only.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> fjrabon said:
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If you read the article Derrell just posted, it explains pretty well why the most recent gen Fuji EVFs are a big jump from even two years ago.


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## runnah (Mar 18, 2015)

fjrabon said:


> runnah said:
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Well that is why I am saying that its only going to get better. I would personally wait until the advancements levels off, especially if they keep making dramatic jumps with each new model.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Some fascinating stuff discussed and shown here, RE the newest developments FujiFilm has made:
> 
> Fujifilm interview Secrets of apodization 5-stop IS OLED EVFs with 5-millisecond lag really and more


also I just remembered how stoked I am about that 56mm f/1.2 APD lens.  That's just game changing bokeh quality, which especially makes a difference on an APS-C sized sensor.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> fjrabon said:
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From what I've seen, there's essentially not much to be gained EVF wise after the most recent jump.  lag is basically undetectable, DR covers what you'd be able to print/display anyway.  Those were always the big complaints about EVF, lag and minuscule display DR.  

I still like OVF, but that's probably because it's what I'm used to.  I think at this point EVF might technically be better actually.  It's more realistic to what you will actually see when you take the picture than any OVF can be.  I use the eyepiece EFV a lot on my X100T, which makes me think 99% of the difference at this point is simply looking in the eye piece v. at a screen.  I just can't get used to a screen personally, but that's probably habit as much as anything.


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## Derrel (Mar 18, 2015)

I do not do much night-time photography, but the artificial brightening introduced by the EVF is one of **the** biggest negatives, according to Thom Hogan...he has frequently listed  the negative impact the EVF has on one's *night-acclimated eyesight* as being a drawback of EVF viewfinding. But see, to me, that's not a big issue, since I only have optical viewfinders, and I seldom shoot at night. Now, if I did a lot of nightime work, then that might be a factor for me.

RE EVF's: the last one I checked out thoroughly was on the Sony A7. The quality and clarity of the image, looking at a human face from about 7 feet away in a portraiture situation, was so poor that I did not feel that I could actually, literally, SEE the expression of the subject well enough to evaluate expression. I thought that the EVF's image was sucky, and I immediately thought, "No f***** way I am buying this to replace my D3x...I can't SEE what I am framing up well enough."

Using the rear LCD screen, the image was big and clear, which would have made it fine for landscape shooting and composing on a tripod or whatnot, but the actual through-the-camera, held-at-eye-level viewfinder image was substantially lower in quality than what I personally, am used to. For somebody who was migrating upward from say, a crappy pentamirror viewfinder $389 beginner-level d-slr, they might have though the Sony A7's EVF was perfectly fine.


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## runnah (Mar 18, 2015)

Well and there is the issue I've had with all mirrorless cameras, the size and weight are the only huge advantage over a DSLR. Other than that there isn't really much reason to switch.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> Well and there is the issue I've had with all mirrorless cameras, the size and weight are the only huge advantage over a DSLR. Other than that there isn't really much reason to switch.


There's also no mirror induced camera vibration.  For some people this can give an extra couple of usable stops in low light.  Silent operation is a big deal to some types of shooters.


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## Derrel (Mar 18, 2015)

I was serious about the OP's dilemma...all three of those possible buying decisions sound okay to me. As far as the "decision based on a single lens"...I did not understand that; it seemed to me like it was also a question of a dslr outfit PLUS a mirrorless camera, and the "one lens" was the little Canon 40mm pancake for a 6D.

And as to the Nikon D700 for choice one, or the Canon 6D for choice three...I don't get the idea of a 2008-era Nikon D700 + a Fuji compact; and to me the Canon 6D seems like a very stripped down body that was rendered sort of under-spec'd when Nikon came out with the D610...the Fuji XT-1 choice in the middle makes sense I guess, but it's APS-C, not full-frame, so why not get a D7100 for, is it half the price? of a Fuji XT-1 body.

The Canon 6D has a deliberately down-spec'd AF system, limited in specifications I think so as not to cannibalize the old 5D-II inventory of two years ago, and the then-new 5D Mark III. I do own a Nikon manual focusing 45mm f/2.8 pancake lens--and I can say that YES, using a 1-inch-long tiny lens like that makes any d-slr *more-packable*....I actually use it on the ginormous D3x so that the camera fits in one of my waistpacks...no other lens I have will allow that monstrous body to fit in the pack with the top zipped up, and the focal length is VERY useful, it really is a handy focal length, for everything from close-ups to landscapes. A 6D + 40mm pancake would be easier to carry than the same camera with many other lenses.

The Canon or Nikon buying options also leave open a dual APS-C and FF format option, with plenty of low-priced used bodies available, where the Fuji is a bit more exclusive a camera. Used Canon and Nikon bodies are cheap. That 40 pancake on a Digital Rebel would make a nifty lens.

The Fuji XT-1 is the sexiest-looking camera to hit the market in many years...it's just..so pretty. I get its appeal on looks. And they have good lenses too, plus a nifty "look" to the images. Cameras like the XT-1 and x100T are really beautiful instruments, where the Canon 6D is...double-bagger ugly..and the Nikon D610 is...about 10 beers deep ugly...


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## runnah (Mar 18, 2015)

Derrel said:


> The Fuji XT-1 is the sexiest-looking camera to hit the market in many years...it's just..so pretty.



What about the DF?! 



fjrabon said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Well and there is the issue I've had with all mirrorless cameras, the size and weight are the only huge advantage over a DSLR. Other than that there isn't really much reason to switch.
> ...



Still, while somewhat useful to some folks it's still not enough for every DSLR user to switch.


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## Derrel (Mar 18, 2015)

As far as the mirror causes vibration idea: Sony's A7r, their 36 MP model....it has serious vibration problems. But not from a mirror--from the mechanical first curtain shutter. Why? Camera is in live view...live view must be quickly interrupted and then the first shutter curtain slams closed, then opens immediately, the exposure is made,  and when the second curtain slams closed, the exposure has been made.

The fix found so far is to fabricate and then attach a 23 to 24-ounce solid bar of METAL underneath the camera via the tripod socket, to dampen the shake the shutter creates.Joseph Holmes - News Sony A7R Shutter Shake Followup 1

diglloyd Photographers Ask Sony to Address the A7R Shutter Vibration Issue

Is it interesting that Nikon's new D810 has replaced the mechanical first curtain shutter system used in the D800 with an _electronic first curtain shutter_? The lens and system accessory catalogues that Nikon and Canon have are big reasons they are #2 and #1, and have been for so many years.


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## fjrabon (Mar 18, 2015)

runnah said:


> Derrel said:
> 
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> > The Fuji XT-1 is the sexiest-looking camera to hit the market in many years...it's just..so pretty.
> ...


Sure, I agree there, just pointing out that size and weight aren't the only pros to mirrorless.


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## Didereaux (Mar 19, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> hello all,
> i am having a tough time deciding which camera and lens combo to buy. my options are based on everyday needs and also sometimes small paid weddings and ceremony.  my  cash is limited therefore i have broken down my needs to the following options.
> 
> 1) i could buy a nikon D700 + 24-85 VR lens along with a cheap Fujifilm X-A1 for normal everyday use.
> ...



In your instance I would say #3  hands down.
3)  Canon 6D + 24-105mm and 40mm stm lens


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## enerlevel (Mar 20, 2015)

thanks for all the replies... here is my logic behind the cameras..
choice 1 which is D700 and the X-A1 ,  is that i can keep the D700 for my More free profesional services while i could use the X-A1 for normal use... The D700 is just too big to travel around for family dinners etc....  plus the whole set would cost me about £1200

the second option was XT1 along with 35MM and 18-55mm.. this will also cost me around the same price but i can use it everyday due to size advantage.... the problem i might face is low light performance due to sensor size...

so the canon made my list ONLY because of the 40mm pancake lens. the 6D along with the lens makes it small and easy to handle... plus i can use low light advantage of the camera for serious stuffs....  


All the people who have used EVF, can you help me with a situation....   
in a dark situation, the camera selects Auto iso 6400. at this setting i can see a very noisy live image in the EVF.
now suppose you want to use a flash and reduce the iso to 1600 for less noise.. selecting this Iso makes the image in the viewfinder totally Black.. you cant see anything..  but as soon as i take the pic, the flash makes the image lighten up....
Question is, if the viewfinder is totally black, how am i suppose to compose the image and how will the camera auto focus?


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## JustJazzie (Mar 20, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> thanks for all the replies... here is my logic behind the cameras..
> choice 1 which is D700 and the X-A1 ,  is that i can keep the D700 for my More free profesional services while i could use the X-A1 for normal use... The D700 is just too big to travel around for family dinners etc....  plus the whole set would cost me about £1200
> 
> the second option was XT1 along with 35MM and 18-55mm.. this will also cost me around the same price but i can use it everyday due to size advantage.... the problem i might face is low light performance due to sensor size...
> ...


I have a Sony camera so it may not be the same with Fuji. But I will share my evf experience. There is a setting in my menu that says "live view display" turning that off makes the view finder as bright as possible but you obviously can't see your exposure. This makes focusing possible, but still super slow. Again, I don't know about Fuji, but my af in low light is absolutely horrendous and manually focusing is impossible if it's too dark because the evf is so noisy you can't see when something is sharp.

I'm not sure how far along the evf's have come since the nex 7 though.


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## Gary A. (Mar 20, 2015)

enerlevel said:


> thanks all for the reply,
> i have used the xt1 over the weekend.  one major problem which i have is that it just goes to Auto iso 6400. i normally use alot of auto iso while managing shutter and aperture. the other problem i faced was that when i want to use the flash, i pull the iso to 1600 which makes the EVF totally black..... and then when i click and the flash blinks, the pic is clean and well exposed... i dunno what i am doing wrong here ....
> the d700 and fuji together do look like a nice option tho....


There are two principle setting for the EVF. One setting has an auto-gain adjustment, in essence you can see everything equal to daylight for an OVF. The other setting reflects your exposure (w/out any adjustments for flash). You were in the wrong EVF setting for flash.


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## Gary A. (Mar 20, 2015)

I shoot a lot of night time stuff. No problem using the EVF at night. The brightness is adjustable and I rarely use flash and keep the ECF on "Live" view not "Auto" gain. Mirrorless is different than a dSLR, not different good or different bad ... just different. It takes time behind the viewfinder to adjust and harmonize with mirrorless if you're coming from a dSLR. I shoot a lot of action type stuff with the XT1 and I am satisfied with the XT1's low light and action capturing performance. Sure, the XT1 doesn't track action like my 1Ds ... but then I'm comparing a $6000 camera to a camera costing 5x less.

I have a complete FF system, a complete APS-C system, a complete MFT system and a complete MF film system ... I use the APS-C system for 90% of my shooting.

A few showing low light capabilities at a night time, outdoor venue, Brea Jazz Festival:






XT1 - ISO- 3200





XT1 - ISO 3200





X-Pro1 - 3200





X-Pro1 - ISO 1600


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## enerlevel (Mar 21, 2015)

the shots are good but for me high iso is above 6400...  sometimes in home gatherings we use F7-F8 and the iso pumps up to 10,000 or even more at times... unless i use a flash but then the setup looks just too much for small family memories....


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