# Engagement Shoot - Client



## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Hello all, 

I am a semi-professional photographer, trying to get into the Wedding Photography side more.

I have done 6 weddings and 1 engagement shoot but am wondering if I have done something wrong as I get no email or phone calls. 


Any way Here are three images I have just worked on. Please let me know what you all think.

The 3rd one was created this way in Photoshop and Lightroom


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm going to start off by saying that brutal honesty is the foundation of true caring, so please don't take offense to what I or what many others here will likely have to say about these photos, as these honest opinions are intended to help you improve however harsh some of them may come off.

To me, these photos are unsellable. The selective color in the first image is the first thing I notice, and REALLY throws me off. Selective coloring in any case is something I would recommend you never do to any photo ever again unless the client asks for it. Either pick color or black and white, but never put the two together in the same photo. In my opinion when it comes to wedding and engagement, a client is looking for images that reflect reality, and the sort of editing and technique you used in these photos do not reflect that. I would advise you to practice with using good lighting, composition, and SUBTLE editing techniques to create a good image rather than manipulating it in photoshop, and avoid special affects if you want to be a wedding or engagement photographer. In my personal opinion, it is a bad sign in almost all cases when you can tell that a photo has been edited. Save the artsy stuff for personal work, not client work. But I will say it again: DO NOT DO SELECTIVE COLORING unless you want your photos to look like they came from a cheap shopping mall photo studio, or from Wal-Mart! Do you honestly want people to look at your work and think they came from a run of the mill crap studio, or would you rather they look at them and think "WOW, a really skilled photographer must have taken these!"?


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## gsgary (Jul 15, 2013)

going by those shots Yes


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Ok Thank you.

I knew someone would speak bad about these fotos. 

I will upload more in a few minutes, and let me know what you think of those ones.


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Ok Thank you.
> 
> I knew someone would speak bad about these fotos.
> 
> I will upload more in a few minutes, and let me know what you think of those ones.


There is no spiteful intention in my feedback; I am giving you my honest and sincere opinions in the hopes that you will try doing better work, which will ultimately lead to more paying clients for you.


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## gsgary (Jul 15, 2013)

For me selective colouring is a big no no


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

These ones are much better than the first set, but I feel like the white balance is too far to the warm/orange side. It looks unnatural and unflattering in my opinion. The cropping is akward in almost all of the shots for me as well, as you keep cutting off their hands. I would also recommend not putting your subjects directly in the middle of the shots. Using the rule of thirds would definitely lend to better photos for you in my opinion. http://digital-photography-school.com/rule-of-thirds


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Thank you for the input...!

I must say I looked at your Portfolio, Cool but very odd pictures


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Thank you for the input...!
> 
> I must say I looked at your Portfolio, Cool but very odd pictures


I'm an oddball, that's for sure! It's only natural that it reflects in my photos. ;]


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Okay Here is a Custom white Balance I did


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Okay Here is a Custom white Balance I did
> 
> View attachment 50003


It's much better to me, but perhaps bring the "tint" slider a little more away from the green side. They are surrounded by a lot of greenery, so it's natural that there is going to be some green light reflected on to them. All you need to do is make a small adjustment just to get it to a more natural skin tone.


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## DanielLewis76 (Jul 15, 2013)

Thats a better shot. For me I would probably have dialled down the DOF slightly and placed them more to the left of shot.

Something a bit more like this.


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## Starskream666 (Jul 15, 2013)

Most clients see selective colouring and automatically think  wow these look so professional this guy knows what hes doing. Its so funny. But yeah those aren't semi professional shots. I hope you didn't charge much


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## texkam (Jul 15, 2013)

> am wondering if I have done something wrong as I get no email or phone calls.


 Wonder no more. It has been confirmed.


Lose the gimicks and shoot images than can stand on their own merit.


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

Starskream666 said:


> Most clients see selective colouring and automatically think  wow these look so professional this guy knows what hes doing. Its so funny. But yeah those aren't semi professional shots. I hope you didn't charge much


By clients, you mean people who go to the mall for their engagement shots and want to pay $18 for their photo shoot and five prints of the same photo because they have a coupon?


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2013)

I think the full-color shot looks better. In the one with the zoom effect created in post, I think the man's skin tone looks too green. Lightroom can help with that. Selective color is a gimmick that most photographers absolutely loathe..and yet...people who have no training whatsoever often really like it...it's kind of the way "popular taste" is often quite lowbrow...like, instead of Shakespeare's plays as "drama", the common person likes some trashy show like "The Real Housewives of New Jersey", or something like that. I'd say try and keep working on your craft. Work at it. You will get better.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 15, 2013)

I do have a question about selective colour and the business end of photography .. as you say, most photographers loathe it and a lot of untrained people love it..

I don't like to use it myself... BUT, if one is in business and the vast majority of that business are untrained people who WILL like it... is that used to boost sales? 

It would seem, from a professional standpoint regarding any craft that your purpose is to provide what your client wants/likes.

It's just strange to me that the only people who like it are those that would pay the bills and yet those collecting the checks avoid it.

This being the case, why HAS selective colour become so hated?


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## Derrel (Jul 15, 2013)

"*No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.*".  *H.L.Mencken  (famous quote)*


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## ShooterJ (Jul 15, 2013)

Derrel said:


> "*No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.*".  *H.L.Mencken  (famous quote)*



:lmao: I doubt any response will trump that.  Thanks Derrel. Hahaha


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## DiskoJoe (Jul 15, 2013)

The posing here has a lot to be desired. They both have some funk kind of looks on their faces and neither is really smiling at the same time. The guy basically looks emotionless. And what up with that zoom pan? Do these people really look like the type that would be into that sort of effect?


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> I do have a question about selective colour and the business end of photography .. as you say, most photographers loathe it and a lot of untrained people love it..
> 
> I don't like to use it myself... BUT, if one is in business and the vast majority of that business are untrained people who WILL like it... is that used to boost sales?
> 
> ...


In the end it really comes down to what your client wants. In my experience though, the only "clients" I have ever had who wanted this sort of editing were the customers I had while working at The Picture People, and more often than not it was the customers who brought in the $18 Pose Package coupon, which got you a free session [as were all sessions at The Picture People] and 5 prints of the same image FOR $18. To me, it's a cheap gimmick that makes a photo look bad in most cases.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi All, 

So I had some rather harsh things said to me in Pm about my photos and that I should refund any and all money and sell my gear. 

But Here is the Issue.

I have a Desire, Passion and Love for Wedding Photography. This is all I want to do in life and I feel this is where I am suppose to be and be doing. 
Every Photographer has there own Style, and maybe you think my photos are bad but I personally do not think so. I was very careful in what I shot and if it was not good enough I deleted it.

So Sorry to have Upset the so called Professionals on the forum, But I am willing to train if someone know a place online thats free or at least cheap. 

I have a wife, 3 kids and one on the way.

I need to turn this into a professional Career ASAP.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Maybe I am not the worlds best in photoshop or Lightroom, But at least I tried.

I am not a web designer nor a graphic artist so if anyone knows of someone that can help me with making a nice site that would also be helpful


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## rexbobcat (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> I need to turn this into a professional Career ASAP.



This is a terrible mentality to have.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Why Rexbotcat. WHY


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Should something I love doing not be paying the bills, and leading to a better life


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## ShooterJ (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't think this is something that you're going to turn into a career ASAP. What's been said to you has been said to help you.. getting a reputation as low level would kill your career. 

There are some very good photographers here.. some of them who shoot weddings professionally.

I think you should be more open to what you're being told and use that to become the kind of photographer that couples seek out for that incredibly important day.

Don't take offense to these things, use them to reach your goals.


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## rexbobcat (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Why Rexbotcat. WHY



When you get impatient...

...you skip corners, you become ignorant, you decide that you "know enough" without ever really wanting to get better, because getting better means devoting more time than you are willing to.

One does not simply become a recognized professional ASAP


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Some New Photos For You To Pick On Me About..

Can't wait for the pms after these.

Corrected Color, Tint, Expo, etc.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 15, 2013)

If you really want to get better and be a professional at this .. you need to come off the defense.. open yourself up to the idea that you have a lot to learn, it's going to take time and be aware that blunt C&C is for your benefit.

This is to help you my friend. Accept that help and make use of the resources available to you here.


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## tirediron (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Some New Photos For You To Pick On Me About..


I haven't seen anyone picking on you; I have seen some very good, albeit blunt critique.  This set is definitely the best of the lot; technically they're acceptable, lighting and focus is not bad, 'though composition and cropping could use some work.  You need to remember that there's a whole different level of expectation placed on a photographer  when he is charging for his or her work, and you will be judged accordingly.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi ShooterJ,

I'm very sorry that I came off like that.
but these people were not being Helpful, nor trying to lead me in a better way.

they were flat out being rude and mean.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 15, 2013)

If someone is abusing you in PM, you can report that. 

No need to apologize.  Just take a few deep breaths, reset yourself and remember there are people here willing to help you.


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## Dinardy (Jul 15, 2013)

Just passing on a favor that another TPF member sent to me.

Teachers in a book:​How to Start a Home-Based Photography Business, 6th (Home-Based Business Series)
The Business of Studio Photography: How to Start and Run a Successful Photography Studio
Photography Business Secrets: The Savvy Photographer's Guide to Sales, Marketing, and More

Doug Box's Guide to Posing for Portrait Photographers
500 Poses for Photographing Women: A Visual Sourcebook for Portrait Photographers
500 Poses for Photographing Men: A Visual Sourcebook for Digital Portrait Photographers
The Best of Family Portrait Photography: Professional Techniques and Images
The Design Aglow Posing Guide for Family Portrait Photography: 100 Modern Ideas for Photographing Newborns, Babies, Children, and Families

My photography has grown substantially since I joined this forum. 

Open up... Grow a thick skin and a sense of humor. A lot of these guys/gals know their chit.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi tirediron

What is it that these ones lack per say when it comes to the composition & crop


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## tirediron (Jul 15, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> If someone is abusing you in PM, you can report that...



Yes, I missed that.  If you receive any PMs that you feel are inappropriate in nature, please use the 'Report' feature (the small triangle with the exclamation mark inside it below the profile information).


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## texkam (Jul 15, 2013)

> am wondering if I have done something wrong as I get no email or phone calls.





> maybe you think my photos are bad but I personally do not think so.


You don't think your photos are bad, but apparently many do. This should be a pretty big clue that something is wrong. My advice is to be humble, hang out here and be willing to learn. Also, explore YouTube for tons of informative tutorial content. Improvement is a long process. Good luck.


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Maybe I am not the worlds best in photoshop or Lightroom, But at least I tried.
> 
> I am not a web designer nor a graphic artist so if anyone knows of someone that can help me with making a nice site that would also be helpful


Like anything we do, skill comes with practice. It's going to take time, and receiving feedback is a part of the process. Even in the most harsh and seemingly spiteful feedback you can find a piece of gold. You can't take any of it personally, and you have to have a desire to learn from all of it, which you seem to have. Haters are going to be there no matter what; trust me, I've dealt with MANY of them, yet here I am still doing what I love to do. You just can't expect success to happen right away just because you have the camera and a passion. You need practice, bottom line. Keep going, you'll get there. And let the haters do their thing, just don't ever let them discourage you from doing what you love. Clearly they love to hate, which is a big shame because it will only ever bring them the same thing in return. Keep going, just know that success is the result of hard work, a lot of time invested, and dedication. If you have the dream and the optimism, then there is nothing standing in your way other than self doubt.


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## CapturedFoto (Jul 15, 2013)

Do any of you know places online I can go and truly learn stuff from and mean this. 
Youtube Videos, Websites anything. 

I use 2 Nikon D600 cameras


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## DanOstergren (Jul 15, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Hi ShooterJ,
> 
> I'm very sorry that I came off like that.
> but these people were not being Helpful, nor trying to lead me in a better way.
> ...



This is SO untrue, but if you truly feel that all of the feedback given to you here has been rude and mean, then this process is going to take you a reeeeaaaally long time. I have not said a single dishonest or spiteful thing to you here, but if you want to take it that way then it's your problem. I wont try to help any more. 

I'm cancelling my subscription to your issues.


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## tirediron (Jul 15, 2013)

Since you've not numbered them, please read as L-R, top - bottom.
1.  Fence growing out his head, fill light required image left on woman.

2.  Cropped right arm on man, raccoon eyes.

3.  Cropped right arm on woman image left.

4.  Bisected hand on woman in orange shirt, left arm cropped at elbow.

5.  Both too tight to edges of frame.

6.  Cropped head, cropped right arm.

7.  --

8.  Cropped sleeve, left arm of man.

9.  Cropped hands on both.

10.  Cropped hands on both.

While you may see these issues as minor, they are the sorts of things that should NOT be present in professional work.  It's acceptable to crop limbs IF necessary, but never at/near joints, along lateral axis, and NEVER crop bits of limbs/digits.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 16, 2013)

DanOstergren said:


> CapturedFoto said:
> 
> 
> > Hi ShooterJ,
> ...



I believe that was in reference to PMs, not to anything in this thread Dan. If I understood correctly.


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## texkam (Jul 16, 2013)

> Do any of you know places online I can go and truly learn stuff from and mean this.
> Youtube Videos, Websites anything.


 FroKnowsPhoto.com - YouTube



> I use 2 Nikon D600 cameras


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## Granddad (Jul 16, 2013)

One thing to develop is an eye for what is a good photo with life in it and what needs to be consigned to the trash. The last batch you posted are MUCH better than the originals! Technical issues aside they show expression in the faces and something of the couples' feelings for each other.  

Rude PM's are the stuff of trolls, ignore what they say and report them, if they can't say it in the open they're probably trying to wind you up in a way they'd be trashed for if they dared do it in the forum. On the forum people are usually honest in a helpful way, even when they're painfully blunt. Stick with it and learn, the people on this forum taught me most of what I know.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 16, 2013)

There is very little connection between the subjects in these pictures - and there is lots of extra space that contributes nothing. 
The centers of interest should dominate the frame.

For example:
Why is all the important stuff up in one corner - and on a slant?
You need to do some very basic work on composition.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 16, 2013)

CapturedFoto said:


> Hi ShooterJ,
> 
> I'm very sorry that I came off like that.
> but these people were not being Helpful, nor trying to lead me in a better way.
> ...



The forum is NOT a training site for PROFESSIONALS... because Professionals should already be competent, and have the knowledge they need. 

The forum IS a training /C&C site for Beginners primarily, and some do get frustrated when we see someone that apparently has beginner skills, claiming to be a professional, or shooting and charging as a professional (myself included). Just having nice gear does not mean that you are capable of shooting on a professional level... far from it. 

You need to make up your mind! If you are convinced you are a professional.. then ignore everyone.. and do your thing!

Or do an honest self assessment, and realize that you are not at a point where you should be charging... or acting as a professional. Work on the skills for a year or two... and maybe you will be at a point where you can move forward with this...


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