# On Camera Flash really is worthless isn't it ?



## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

This morning I tested focusing points on my d7000 but it was too dark to do much.  So I popped up the on camera flash, and took a few shots.

With the results I noticed that shots were blurry.  This was on my 24-85 AF-D lens. So then I was wondering if the lens really isn't tack sharp?  So I put on the 18-105 lens and had the same result.

So I put on my sb-700 flash on the hot shoe, at a 45 degree angle with the bounce card in TTL mode.
WHAT a difference.  Alot of clarity and sharpness.  This duplicated on the 24-85.

Just thought I would share my epiphany of what everyone says about On vs Off Camera Flash to actual testing results..   I'm sure if I put up my umbrellas at 45 degree angles, etc that it would be be much better.

I'll let you figure out which is which .. SOOC with cropping







One of the two shots - The total shot at 105 before I cropped them in for detail.


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## 407370 (Jul 29, 2014)

I dont own an off camera flash. The built in one on my FUJI HS20 works ok within it's own limitations. I have a permanent fixture of a little bit of white tissue paper taped over it as it is way too harsh. Without the tissue paper or deflecting the light onto a floor or ceiling it gives every person I photograph a variation of pink / red / zombie eye. I have to get creative with bits of shiny plastic and sticky tape depending on the situation.

The flash does not synchronise with camera settings either. So with anything other than sports type action settings everything gets over exposed. Longer exposures require more layers of tissue paper.

Or I could just purchase a speedlight.........

Nah, I like the challenge of the tissue paper and sticky tape.


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## tirediron (Jul 29, 2014)

Well... 'worthless' might be a little strong, but it is indeed very limited.  It's fine for snapshots, but not so much for photographs.


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## jaomul (Jul 29, 2014)

Not sure if this says something about your flash or focus system. Speedlight focus assist prob better than built in. 
On camera flash is handy for lifting small shadows on sunny days and triggering other speedlights. Ask anyone who uses a pro camera would they like to have a built in flash


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## 407370 (Jul 29, 2014)

I always wondered why camera manufacturers put a built in flash that they must know is next to useless on a camera. FUJI must have tested the flash on my camera and concluded that everyone will have a supply of DIY flash filters in their bag.


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Well... 'worthless' might be a little strong, but it is indeed very limited.  It's fine for snapshots, but not so much for photographs.


I use my cellphone for SnapShots


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## Designer (Jul 29, 2014)

It's easy to tell which one is which not only from the better focus, but also from the shadows.


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## godsotherson (Jul 29, 2014)

407370 said:


> I always wondered why camera manufacturers put a built in flash that they must know is next to useless on a camera. FUJI must have tested the flash on my camera and concluded that everyone will have a supply of DIY flash filters in their bag.


on board flash is not always used to illuminate the subject. it might be used to fire a remote optically sensored flash while being set at a low enough power as to not overcome the ambient light, so it does not affect the image but the stronger flash from the remote does affect the image. a good to know technique when you do not have a radio trigger or cable to fire your remote/off camera flash.


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

Designer said:


> It's easy to tell which one is which not only from the better focus, but also from the shadows.



The problem is, the one that should have the better focus is opposite of the result
The On camera flash did all of the prefocusing stuff and yet was more fuzzy
The On camera SB-700 I don't think does this but yet was more in focus.

And I was focusing on one single spot both times (and many other times before these two example) right on the skewer end cap. AF-S Single focus point.


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

godsotherson said:


> 407370 said:
> 
> 
> > I always wondered why camera manufacturers put a built in flash that they must know is next to useless on a camera. FUJI must have tested the flash on my camera and concluded that everyone will have a supply of DIY flash filters in their bag.
> ...



Yeah, I've been there done that and moved on ...


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## 407370 (Jul 29, 2014)

godsotherson said:


> on board flash is not always used to illuminate the subject. it might be used to fire a remote optically sensored flash while being set at a low enough power as to not overcome the ambient light, so it does not affect the image but the stronger flash from the remote does affect the image. a good to know technique when you do not have a radio trigger or cable to fire your remote/off camera flash.



If I ever buy an off camera flash I will give it a go.


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

I also did half releases several times to eliminate any potential focusing issues. So I don't think it's a focusing issue.  I just think the light is better as it's not reflecting back on a single level like the one example that is fuzzy.   going back to the book of Light & Magic stuff.   I've just never really experimented this concept.


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## JustJazzie (Jul 29, 2014)

I haven't found it COMPLETELY useless. using flash comp turned down, I've been able to bring back some shadows in weird uneven lighting. Sure it's mostly on snap shots, but in a pinch I'm glad to have it! 

On another note, I do think that ALL on camera flashes should allow you to bounce flash off a ceiling like my NEX7 does! Such a genius option. Tell flash comp to over expose by 2-3 stops and bounce! I was even able to instruct my mom in less than 10sec. When u had her snap a photo of my hubby and I!


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I haven't found it COMPLETELY useless. using flash comp turned down, I've been able to bring back some shadows in weird uneven lighting. Sure it's mostly on snap shots, but in a pinch I'm glad to have it!
> 
> On another note, I do think that ALL on camera flashes should allow you to bounce flash off a ceiling like my NEX7 does! Such a genius option. Tell flash comp to over expose by 2-3 stops and bounce! I was even able to instruct my mom in less than 10sec. When u had her snap a photo of my hubby and I!



I'll probably retest this with the flash turned down.  For some reason I think the focusing will be better.
I didn't like the redeye et all from it so I bought a SB-600 a few years ago, then a SU-800 controller .. and SB700, 2x SB-800s .. and I haven't used the on camera flash since then.  I take my sb-700 with me anytime I think I'll need some sort of flash.  The other weekend I used my SB-700 on my camera as I was practicing/testing some stuff.

I just find it odd, that with on camera flash things looks out of focus.  And I was focusing squarely on one spot in all my shots (I took many too and they were all the same), with repeated results.


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## Derrel (Jul 29, 2014)

Looks like a focusing issue to me. I'e used on-camera flash as on-axis fill light, and also bounced it from the hotshoe; I think worthless is not an accurate word to describe on-camera flash. But seriously, it seems like the AF system is not "nailing" the focus on the one shot...it just does not appear focused, and the depth of field is somewhat limited too, at that f/stop at that range.

Looking at the writing on that small "cap" device, I can literally see that one shot has back-focus, the other encompasses that cap thing perfectly, and the lettering is sharp. I am wondering about the reflectivity of the target itself, if that is messing up the focusing? (My idea on this could be a hang-over from my experiences with the Konica C35 AF, one of the very first AF cameras: I owned one, and it would ALWAYS back-focus severely on silvery things, like salmon...the active AF beam it emitted would hit the silvery scales of the fish, and it would focus never in the boat and on the fisherman and his catch, but always wayyyyyyyyy behind the fish!)

Did you have the AF assit beam on? I ask because in AF-S mode, it CAN be emitted, if the system needs it.


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## astroNikon (Jul 29, 2014)

Derrel said:


> Looks like a focusing issue to me. I'e used on-camera flash as on-axis fill light, and also bounced it from the hotshoe; I think worthless is not an accurate word to describe on-camera flash. But seriously, it seems like the AF system is not "nailing" the focus on the one shot...it just does not appear focused, and the depth of field is somewhat limited too, at that f/stop at that range.
> 
> Looking at the writing on that small "cap" device, I can literally see that one shot has back-focus, the other encompasses that cap thing perfectly, and the lettering is sharp. I am wondering about the reflectivity of the target itself, if that is messing up the focusing? (My idea on this could be a hang-over from my experiences with the Konica C35 AF, one of the very first AF cameras: I owned one, and it would ALWAYS back-focus severely on silvery things, like salmon...the active AF beam it emitted would hit the silvery scales of the fish, and it would focus never in the boat and on the fisherman and his catch, but always wayyyyyyyyy behind the fish!)
> 
> Did you have the AF assit beam on? I ask because in AF-S mode, it CAN be emitted, if the system needs it.



Except this was a reoccurring theme on not just one lens, but a couple.  With the same results.
I even went into AUTO mode in one test but then it went into Auto Focusing mode which threw the test awry.

Yes, the AF assit beam was ON.  I looked at the camera from the side to double check.

I was thinking the same thing Derrel.  That is basically polished metal ala Chrome like.  Thus the on camera flash being more eye level and not diffused at all was creating the focusing issue.

both were f/6.3


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## cowleystjames (Jul 29, 2014)

Must admit it beats me why they put an on board flash on the D810. At least it doesn't rattle like my D800e used to!


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## petrochemist (Jul 29, 2014)

I'd certainly agree that YOUR pop up flash isn't working well.
Mine are limited compared to any decent external flash, but still very useful (that's on my Pentax DSLRs, my various Panasonic CSCs & perhaps even the P&S cameras) - certainly not worthless.


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## cynicaster (Jul 29, 2014)

I suppose if you're forced to use pop-up flash because it's consistently your only option, then you're going to find ways of putting it to good use.  

But going from a powerful modern speedlight back to a pop-up flash, I have a really hard time resisting the urge to call the pop-up useless.  It's like going from a nice, sharp chef's knife in the kitchen to using one of those flip-out pocket knives you see for $1.50 at the cash register of your hardware store, next to the Altoids.


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## JustJazzie (Jul 29, 2014)

cynicaster said:


> I suppose if you're forced to use pop-up flash because it's consistently your only option, then you're going to find ways of putting it to good use.
> 
> But going from a powerful modern speedlight back to a pop-up flash, I have a really hard time resisting the urge to call the pop-up useless.  It's like going from a nice, sharp chef's knife in the kitchen to using one of those flip-out pocket knives you see for $1.50 at the cash register of your hardware store, next to the Altoids.


You'll be glad to have that cheep worthless knife and your chefs knife is nowhere to be found! At least you can still make dinner.


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## Scatterbrained (Jul 29, 2014)

Well, the iso 6400 of the pop up shot vs the 560 for the speedlight sure isn't helping the situation.  Just sayin.


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## chuasam (Aug 2, 2014)

On camera flash is okay for a bit of fill light during the day or controlling the external speedlites.


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## Derrel (Aug 2, 2014)

cowleystjames said:


> Must admit it beats me why they put an on board flash on the D810. At least it doesn't rattle like my D800e used to!



For the built-in remote flash trigger capabilities, for slave triggering, and for the occasional ned for just a tiny bit of flash fill, you know, classic on-axis fill light, the best place is as close to the lens axis as you can get the light.

See this article for a primer:  Strobist: On-Axis Fill: Introduction

And for a really interesting, weird way to tape a flash right to a lens barrel to get reallllllly on-axis fill, see this doozy!!!

Strobist: On Assignment: On Camera, On Axis, On Budget

There actually are multiple reasons to put a built-in flash on an expensive camera aimed at skilled, experienced photographers who know a lot about lighting. And for people who want to ALWAYS have a way to trigger other flash units using simple optical slave technology, the on-board flash is a Godsend. That's why it's been put in...more and more people are doing more work with artificial lighting instead of just ambient light. See also http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/07/cheap-powerful-on-axis-fill.html

PLUS, Strobist has another good entry I could not find easily about using skylighting as the main light, and the rim light being from the sun, and the on-camera flash as fill-in light for the eye sockets. The SECRET here is that using fill-flash that is physically AS CLOSE TO the lens axis is possible eliminates the under-chin shadow that a tall, 4- to 5-inch high shoe-mounted speedlight can cause!!! So...the camera makers know that an on-camera flash mounted as close to the lens height as possible, throws the least shadow, and makes the best FILL light that does NOT tend to create is own shadow. Since fill is usually at least 2 stops "under" the key light brightness, to as much as 3 stops under, that pipsqueak on-camera flash make a perfect directly on-axis fill light when another source is the key, or main light. And that is one reason the D800 and D610 and D600 and D610 and D7100 have pop-up flash units; because for those who really know how to use flash, they offer utility.


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## Braineack (Aug 2, 2014)

I use the on-camera flash for fill all the time in a bind.

this for example:




Julia out of the pool by The Braineack, on Flickr

flash power was set to -2.0EV (maybe a touch too low).  you can see the sun was to her right at 2:00pm.


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## Derrel (Aug 2, 2014)

And there you go!!! ^^^^^ Just a tiny bit of fill light from that useless on-board pop-up flash!!


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## Braineack (Aug 2, 2014)

and this illustrates the lighting without flash:


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## runnah (Aug 2, 2014)

I miss mine as it was any easy way to trigger Speedlights without having to use pocket wizards.


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## cowleystjames (Aug 2, 2014)

Fair enough, but if they're really that useful for pro's why aren't they on the D4,D4s and Canon 1Dx range?


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## TCampbell (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm pretty much of the opinion that using the on-camera flash as a "fill" is one of the few things it is good for.  Distance is limited... but I tend to dial the flash exposure compensation down to around -1 when using a flash as a "fill" light anyway.  That is... at least I did back when I owned a camera that had on camera flash.  The full-frame bodies tend to not have them.

I'm guessing the blurry vs. not blurry were the result of the external flash's focus-assist beam.


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## Braineack (Aug 15, 2014)

While I was using my SB700, here's the difference a little on camera fill can give.  I'm sure if I didn't have my speedlight handy I would have achieved the same results.






This was with a D5100 and a 35mm 1.8G; no flash.

And mine:



DSC_0404-97 by The Braineack, on Flickr

this was at 38mm with my 24-70mm at f/6.3; pretty sure I had the flash EV at -1.7.


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## chuasam (Aug 15, 2014)

I have mine taped down so it doesn't pop up by accident and ruin the exposure


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## Tinderbox (UK) (Aug 15, 2014)

If the built in flash is an pop-up and can be pulled back to bounce off a ceiling you can get some nice indoor photo`s , they might also be useful for close outdoor portrait and back-light portraight shots.

John.


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## Braineack (Aug 15, 2014)

chuasam said:


> I have mine taped down so it doesn't pop up by accident and ruin the exposure



Stop shooting in full auto-mode and ruining the exposure, shutter speed, _and_ DOF...



Tinderbox (UK) said:


> If the built in flash is an pop-up and can be pulled back to bounce off a ceiling you can get some nice indoor photo`s , they might also be useful for close outdoor portrait and back-light portraight shots.
> 
> John.




this is what got me into strobism: Lightscoop | PRO-LIKE PHOTOS WITH YOUR BUILT IN FLASH!

pretty sure I used it here back in 2009:







D40 with a 35mm 1.8 so you can see I was very close to my kittie and just bounce the flash off the ceiling.


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## chuasam (Aug 15, 2014)

I don't shoot in full auto.
My camera doesn't even have full auto. What happens is I bump the flash release button and the flash deactivates the hotshoe causing my studio strobes not to fire as planned.


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## Braineack (Aug 15, 2014)

gotcha.  I thought you were suggesting it pops-up when you dont want to use it; something that would only happen in AUTO (or creative) mode.


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## AlanKlein (Aug 15, 2014)

They're good for snap shots of people and for back fill lighting.  Some cameras allow intensity adjustments so they don't wash out subjects, especially subjects that are very close.  They're good for taking pictures in dark places when you don't have a flashlight and then seeing what is there.  They're good for taking pictures of nameplate labels on equipment in dark places when you're shooting really close.  They're good for taking pictures to see what's behind furniture or behind equipment and other places that don't have easy access or you can't see behind.  Hey, even under beds when you're looking for, well, you're looking for something.


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## Derrel (Aug 15, 2014)

chuasam said:


> I don't shoot in full auto.
> My camera doesn't even have full auto. What happens is I bump the flash release button and the flash deactivates the hotshoe causing my studio strobes not to fire as planned.



Learn how to properly grip the camera dude! ;-)

"_See, we use the pentaprism side here as a hand-rest! It's puuuure geeeeen-ius on Nikon's part!_"

"_Yeah, the guy slammed into the back of my car!! I MEANT to hit the gas pedal, but I slammed on the brakes instead!"_


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## chuasam (Aug 15, 2014)

Nah, so much easier to use gaffer tape and keep the flash stuck shut.


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## hamlet (Aug 15, 2014)

It is all about controlling the light. Even an on camera flash can give you some amazing shots if you know how to use that light.


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## runnah (Aug 15, 2014)

hamlet said:


> It is all about controlling the light. Even an on camera flash can give you some amazing shots if you know how to use that light.



Yes and no. On camera flash is designed to light up faces. The flash is weak and is pretty much only good for a very slight fill.


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## CAP (Aug 15, 2014)

SAY WHAT !!!!!!!
Who said said a on camera flash is worthless ?

let me set up my 12x Canon EX-600 RT's and then you shoot with with out flash and let know whose shoots look better and are correctly exposed.  Heck i all ways run 95% of the time with 1 speed light on my 1dx and defuser it and it is works perfect.  Or even the holy grail combo with Better beamer and my canon 300mm f/2.8 IS USM II i have gotten some of my greatest wild life shots using that.


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## runnah (Aug 15, 2014)

CAP said:


> SAY WHAT !!!!!!! Who said said a on camera flash is worthless ?  let me set up my 12x Canon EX-600 RT's and then you shoot with with out flash and let know whose shoots look better and are correctly exposed.  Heck i all ways run 95% of the time with 1 speed light on my 1dx and defuser it and it is works perfect.  Or even the holy grail combo with Better beamer and my canon 300mm f/2.8 IS USM II i have gotten some of my greatest wild life shots using that.



We are talking about the pop up variety.


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## CAP (Aug 15, 2014)

runnah said:


> CAP said:
> 
> 
> > SAY WHAT !!!!!!! Who said said a on camera flash is worthless ?  let me set up my 12x Canon EX-600 RT's and then you shoot with with out flash and let know whose shoots look better and are correctly exposed.  Heck i all ways run 95% of the time with 1 speed light on my 1dx and defuser it and it is works perfect.  Or even the holy grail combo with Better beamer and my canon 300mm f/2.8 IS USM II i have gotten some of my greatest wild life shots using that.
> ...



Oh sorry.

*Awkward *


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## minicoop1985 (Aug 15, 2014)

I have a built in. I have no idea why, I never use it. Anyway, I have a Neewer speedlite that actually seems to work.



IMG_1052 by longm1985, on Flickr

Just gotta hope it works the way you want it to. I find that using it on a lower power is better. I used the bounce card too.


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## Rick50 (Aug 17, 2014)

I've been using a speed light mounted directly on the camera for fill light as in these taken recently.
Being directly on the camera does not seem to hurt (at least to me).


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