# Is photography really that hard? (should I be thinking about 'going pro')



## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

Of course I know it is. We've all spent years getting to where we are now.... but periodically I will take a gander at local photographers and, well, they're just awful. I mean, not all, but many are or are very inconsistent. I can't help but think that I have more technical experience and proficiency.

Still, I am a bit reluctant. I don't know if my people skills are good enough, I've never ever been interested in portraiture, and even if I did gather up suitable equipment I am unsure how I'd even think about starting up. I don't really have a lot of friends and family and there are several studios that, even if their work ranges from tasteless to tacky to just plain snapshotty, it'd be very hard to promote a presence.

Do people even know what quality work looks like? Is quality not even a real issue? Or do people just kind of go with the establishment, no matter how bad?


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## thetrue (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm going to have to say that people go with the establishment for the most part, in any business. I own a body shop with an emphasis on custom work, and no matter how bad the quality is, people always throw the "Maaco told me this much, so why should I go to you instead?" It's kind of a shake my head moment every single time I hear the M word, but it's very worth sorting through all the riffraff in the end. Eventually someone sees the value, and they know people that are looking for quality. I'm fairly certain the same applies with a photography business, especially if you do something more than portrait/studio work.


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## MLeeK (Nov 3, 2012)

You've got more people skills than most people we see here who aim to go pro. Just leap.


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm a loser amature no money loser so I say go for it.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> You've got more people skills than most people we see here who aim to go pro. Just leap.



I just am so scared to offer a substandard product, you know? I wouldn't want to charge someone for something that is just 'bad', maybe the competition doesn't know any better - but I do. I suppose that is the big thing that's holding me back, like I said, I know I am _technically_ able, but photographing real people takes more than just exposure technique, you know?


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## Derrel (Nov 3, 2012)

Here's what I see: today, in 2012, "good enough is good enough". DO people VALUE quality work??? FOr the most part, NO. People who buy photographic images today often want them for social media, e-mailing, web pages, e-businesses they own, Christmas cards, and sharing on mobile devices (smart phones, tablets, PC's and Macs,etc). PHOTOGRAPHS, the PAPER kind, have in most situations, been supplanted by images shown and viewed on SCREENS. SMALL screens,m many times. Photographs have been de-valued in many other situations too. In publishing of all types, photos shot at fairly low-rez are adequate for many uses. Fancy cameras are now everywhere, owned by high school and college students, grandparents, moms, dads, and even some kids!

Today, it is VERY easy to copy a paper image, and turn it into a digital image. Images can easily be duped, adjusted, improved, tweaked, composited, and so on. Today, you can hand a person your iPhone with some decent images loaded into the Camera Roll, and show off your work, and at iPhone size, ANYTHING even remotely decent looks good. And, that is the way a lot of people are going to be sharing and viewing images...on a SCREEN.

Even 20+ years ago, when I was shooting portraits every day, 8-10 hrs a day...people evaluated photos based on their EMOTIONAL CONNECTION with the SUBJECT, and based on EXPRESSION much more so than on technical qualities. "The public" are not PPA print judges...when they see a good image of mom, or dad, or little sister, or Gammy, and the person looks friendly, and clear, and decently lighted, they LIKE that picture. You could shoot it with a Hassy or an RB67 or a 6MP Nikon D70, or a 36MP D800e...the general public evaluates photography in a very different way than photo enthusiasts do!

The easy money died off a hell of a long time ago. All the good freelance jobs and stuff I used to get...VERY hard to come by now, because somebody will shoot it for "the experience", or for "fifty dollars". Even stock photography has been ruined, for the most part. Photos of most types are worth so little these days...Now, one thing about what I wrote above: good enough is good enough...so...hey, start selling that stuff, right???


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

Accepted quality has changed from what used to be poor is now mediocre, what was mediocre is now considered good(and acceptable) good has gone to great(a lot of entry level professionals are at this point) and great has stayed the same.  So the bottom line is that good and great are all lumped together now and people accept it.

Great photos should be set apart from all others, but that isn't happening anymore.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

Is it something you really want to do?  Which is worse,  trying,  giving it your best go and failing? Or never giving it a shot at all?


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

Well, Derrel, you have to understand - i'm essentially an MWAC. A well educated and experienced MWAC. An MWAC with a penis. But still, an MWAC. I can't imagine this being a real money maker, more something to do to feel like I'm contributing and provide some level of tangible self worth - and to put those "pros" in line. 

I know that the days of "easy money" are over, missed the boat on that one aiming for an MFA and teaching position. My wife will always be the bread winner. Still though, I have a desire to do something with my skills - I just don't know if I have what it takes beyond the technical. I'm afraid of making an ass of myself.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> Well, Derrel, you have to understand - i'm essentially an MWAC. A well educated and experienced MWAC. An MWAC with a penis. But still, an MWAC. I can't imagine this being a real money maker, more something to do to feel like I'm contributing and provide some level of tangible self worth - and to put those "pros" in line.
> 
> I know that the days of "easy money" are over, missed the boat on that one aiming for an MFA and teaching position. My wife will always be the bread winner. Still though, I have a desire to do something with my skills - I just don't know if I have what it takes beyond the technical. I'm afraid of making an ass of myself.



Heh... You said penis! 

Seriously... You have the technical skills, fo rizzle. You just have to decide whether you want to invest in the chance of making it a business.


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## nmoody (Nov 3, 2012)

From what I have seen of you unpopular your photography skills will not hold you back. As others have mentioned they are better than most people we see here who are "pro's"

As for me even if I had the skills and abilities you have I still wouldn't be able to go pro for a few reasons:
1. I have no formal business education or experience. I can fix the hell out of a computer/server, but running a business is lost on me.
2. I don't have the confidence/arrogance I need to work with people. I have a little charisma, but it can feel hollow to me at times.
3. I don't have the enough savings to invest into the business to get it started correctly and live off until I have enough clients to support me.

Photography will stay a hobby for me and I am perfectly fine with that.


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## JackandSally (Nov 3, 2012)

I aspire to go pro, though I'm planning on staying in the "hobbyist" spectrum until I can produce the quality work I see some of you all post.  I may never make it pro.  I'm okay with that, but that's not going to keep me from trying.  I have since stopped listening when my friends and family tell me I should be a professional just on the basis that when I compare my work to that of others, I have so much learning to do.  Unfortunately, many photographers in my area get the "you're great, go pro" line and leap before they're ready.  If you think you're work is good enough give it a shot.  I haven't see your shots, but over the last month I've grown to trust and respect MLeek's opinion.  So I say, go for it.


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## o hey tyler (Nov 3, 2012)

Don't think about it... Just...


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## pgriz (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't think people are buying "photography" per se.  There are other benefits that can be delivered using images - ego boosts, aspirationals, memory ticklers, history revisions, bald-faced lies, etc.  And those have little to do with the photographic skill set, and much to do with understanding people.  So going "pro" successfully is much more about how well do you know/understand your prospective market.


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## jamesbjenkins (Nov 3, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> Accepted quality has changed from what used to be poor is now mediocre, what was mediocre is now considered good(and acceptable) good has gone to great(a lot of entry level professionals are at this point) and great has stayed the same.  So the bottom line is that good and great are all lumped together now and people accept it.
> 
> Great photos should be set apart from all others, but that isn't happening anymore.



See, I think there's another level beyond great that discerning clients still notice and appreciate. Many times in wedding/portrait work (what I'm most familiar with) these types of images border on being classified as fine art photography, due to their significant planning and execution pre-shot. I've only produced a small handful of images that I'd consider to be "better than great", the kind that causes the client's jaw to drop slightly and stare at the image for several seconds before speaking. 

I totally agree that most people aren't buying physical prints anymore, and almost none of them are viewing the image large enough to appreciate all the finer details many here labor over. It's a shame that so many don't, but I've had 2 or 3 clients this year who most definitely appreciate the small differences between good, great and "better than great".


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## Derrel (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> >SNIP> I'm afraid of making an ass of myself.



Well, then, that jackass avatar you have must be eliminated...

Hell...like imagemaker said above...mediocre is now considered "good"...if you can make some coin shooting pictures, I say go for it...I've recently started shooting anything I can for money...I used to shoot small-product table-top work for fishing industry clients, as well as some other types of odd, low-rent magazine jobs, and of course portraiture and some weddings, and then later, sports assignments for a couple local area newspapers. If you can make a few bucks, I say go for it. Why worry about making an ass of yourself? You can do THAT here on TPF, and focus on shooting decent stuff in the real world...


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## rexbobcat (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> Of course I know it is. We've all spent years getting to where we are now.... but periodically I will take a gander at local photographers and, well, they're just awful. I mean, not all, but many are or are very inconsistent. I can't help but think that I have more technical experience and proficiency.
> 
> Still, I am a bit reluctant. I don't know if my people skills are good enough, I've never ever been interested in portraiture, and even if I did gather up suitable equipment I am unsure how I'd even think about starting up. I don't really have a lot of friends and family and there are several studios that, even if their work ranges from tasteless to tacky to just plain snapshotty, it'd be very hard to promote a presence.
> 
> Do people even know what quality work looks like? Is quality not even a real issue? Or do people just kind of go with the establishment, no matter how bad?



You have no idea how much I can relate to this. In a place that has a lot of musical talent, and a lot of talented visual artists, my community seriously lacks in photographers...not quantity...just quality...

In galleries this is much of the upper eschelon of the photography. 




And this is the best that the commercial photography industry has to offer here:
http://lubbock.craigslist.org/crs/

I know it's Craigslist, but those photographers are the norm here, and because they have huge social circles of visually incompetent friends they just keep thriving...


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## IByte (Nov 3, 2012)

Oo ....are you that "cop/business owner" from the last thread?


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## Ysarex (Nov 3, 2012)

I keep an account open here:

TheKnot.com - Wedding Planning - Wedding Ideas- Wedding Dresses

And I use it to collect photos to show my classes. Sometimes I just bring up the site in class and we browse through for laughs -- then I cry. Here's a few examples of Pro work used by the Pros themselves to advertise their wares -- took me all of a quick 5 minute browse to collect these.

http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/7a1cf9a9-2f72-4ca4-9861-a4738da833d5
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/08f26aff-c8c4-46ec-801d-693d933e1492
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/6bf2342c-d992-44a9-b911-23218920eb10
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/84cd0826-b0c8-41a5-a06c-9214d7ee8a41
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/31ff2df1-836e-4000-bb32-eb75f4054b1d
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/e7408032-d5bf-418f-8e49-bb362da69b57
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/cddf0297-53d6-425f-820a-f56c01114ff9
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/42b1f2b4-d225-4243-99fa-ac2777606b47
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/f8b3374b-ccf9-4158-8acc-2f59e8be732f
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/b7a6efd8-2368-4d6d-92af-4edc46bd795d
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/1d78a920-34c7-4b71-bb56-98341d7a4aa1
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/a69b5a4e-9fa8-4adf-8c0c-83465ff3f6f5
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/b2663abb-3ee6-47d1-907b-962abb0b16c5
http://cdn.theknot.com/theknot.ats.CompanyPhotos/fbdf62dc-b2fb-4683-977a-2aa6de62f98d

Joe


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## camz (Nov 3, 2012)

All of our packages have albums and no shoot and burn.  A switch we did that has benefit us tremendously and there's still a big market for it atleast here in the bay area california. If you educate your clients(probably the clients who belong on the upper bracket), they will value it and buy prints.  If your market is catered to the bargain market, then your work will be degraded to something that can be published on any other type of media except print.  

So, I think if you go with portraiture or weddings, the only way to do it now to sell quality and be valued nowadays is to go the the upper priced market.  In the bay area is the 4k and above per weddiing. Just cater to the ones who value it and no one else. Also, they're the easiest to deal with since they invested in you, they will listen and trust your expertise.


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## skieur (Nov 3, 2012)

You have demonstrated that your people skills need a great deal of improvement when you are "communicating" with someone who disagrees with you.  That would certainly be a limiting factor in building a customer base.  On the other hand, professional photography does not mean just opening a business.  You could always work for a company or organization as their in-house photographer.  Expanding into video as well would make you more appealing to companies.

skieur


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

^^ you seem to do just fine, skieur.

I have also considered other routes, from real estate to an online service for small goods producers. There are a lot of people out there who sell little products online, like soaps, candies, canned goods and other gift items. They could send me a product sample and specifications, and I could return them with files to post on their ebay listings and home page. I'm wondering if there is a market there for this. Perhaps specialization is a better route than trying to compete with the oodles and noodles fauxtographic dreamers?


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

I have to say that if I was just starting out with all the technical skills in my bag of tricks, these days I probably wouldn't attempt it.  The difference with me now and me when I was  working every day shooting, now I struggle to find new avenues to find clients, where 15 years ago I was picking and choosing who I would work with.  I always tried to work with everyone that contacted me but the schedule didn't always allow it.  I am not a technical wiz when it comes to the internal workings of a camera, I know how to shoot, I know how to read light and use it to my advantage, I can do a decent job with studio lights.  Photography used to be a lot easier in many ways shooting film, it was less technical, well the cameras were less technical.  To be honest I really have little time when people start talking to me about cameras and how many megapixels they have and can I do this or that, I really don't care, as long as I can record what I see and walk away knowing it's exactly what I wanted.

I think there are lots of people out there that have the skills to be good photographers that are worried about the next step and it's really a shame that they don't try.  I also know there are a lot of people out there that are working as photographers that I really wish they weren't, but they are arrogant or confident enough in themselves to convince other people that they are good, now that mediocre is good. 


I just do a job, and I enjoy what I do, and I do it very well. What I am not good at... selling myself now that I have to.


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## pgriz (Nov 3, 2012)

Business is all about niches.  The trick is to find a niche with many customers and no competitors.  Another way of saying this, is that you need to find a need that isn't getting fulfilled.


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## Mully (Nov 3, 2012)

I would make a list ....the good ....the bad and then try to sort out what is possible and doable The business is mostly about relationships, doing good work but being there for what the client needs and being able to deliver, on time.   You can do this you just have to make a plan that you can stick to.


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## MLeeK (Nov 3, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> I keep an account open here:
> 
> TheKnot.com - Wedding Planning - Wedding Ideas- Wedding Dresses
> 
> ...


Some of those were pretty entertaining!


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## MLeeK (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > You've got more people skills than most people we see here who aim to go pro. Just leap.
> ...


YOU are the judge of the images you produce-whether they meet your standards or not. I say this a LOT: YOU are the only YOU. You have no competition. Yep, there are other photographers but they are THEM and they produce THEIR images. You are the only one who can produce YOUR images. 

The thing about you is that you see the obscure and odd in everything. How will that translate into shooting for someone else? 
You know exposure, however what about posing people and how to get the best look for them? If you feel you can produce images using your obscure vision (and that's quite possibly a niche market!!!) AND you can work with the subjects? Then you have the photography end of it. 

What about the business end of things? That's where you are going to make or break it in this business. If you feel you have the head to manage the business in every aspect and to market it? Yep. You've got it. Leap.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 3, 2012)

I was thinking about this just yesterday.
I am so totally not interested in being a pro because:


My skills in all but a few areas are minimal - and I don't care about improving them
There are lots of things that I don't want to shoot.
I don't want to try and make unpleasant people look good for money
I don't want to sell my 'art; and be rejected
I don't need the $ and other guys do.
I don't want to turn what I love into a job

It's sort of like dating a really beautiful woman who loves to party and pays half the checks and is dynamite in bed - and then messing it all up by marrying her.


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## IByte (Nov 3, 2012)

The_Traveler said:
			
		

> I was thinking about this just yesterday.
> I am so totally not interested in being a pro because:
> 
> 
> ...



Lol it happens all the time, then she does a total 180.


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## orljustin (Nov 3, 2012)

Awesome.  Another 'should I be a pro' thread.  Well I guess it isn't a day with a y without one.


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## kundalini (Nov 3, 2012)

You seem to have quite a few questions of late.

My suggestion is to sit back, throw your feet up and have a toke.  What you are likely to discover is that some things find their natural way.  Try as you might, the universe has a more influential vote.


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Business is all about niches.  The trick is to find a niche with many customers and no competitors.  Another way of saying this, is that you need to find a need that isn't getting fulfilled.




It used to be easier having a single niche with few competitors, I shot sports, I was the go to photographer for many of Canada's amateur sports bodies, unfortunately digital did change that, many of the sports started buying their own cameras and doing a lot of the smaller shoots themselves, unfortunately for me it was the smaller shoots that made up the biggest part of my business.  I still shoot sports for the ones that appreciate what I can do and they can't.

Now a lot of photographers have gone the way many burger resturants have gone, they are required to start selling chicken, chilli and fish to stay in business.  That's why when you read some peoples FB bios they start off with...I can shoot, weddings, events, portraits, concerts, sports, news.  They can't do any of them well, but they are more likely to find some sucker that is willing to pay $20 to hire them.


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## shortpants (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Of course I know it is. We've all spent years getting to where we are now.... but periodically I will take a gander at local photographers and, well, they're just awful. I mean, not all, but many are or are very inconsistent. I can't help but think that I have more technical experience and proficiency.
> 
> Still, I am a bit reluctant. I don't know if my people skills are good enough, I've never ever been interested in portraiture, and even if I did gather up suitable equipment I am unsure how I'd even think about starting up. I don't really have a lot of friends and family and there are several studios that, even if their work ranges from tasteless to tacky to just plain snapshotty, it'd be very hard to promote a presence.
> 
> Do people even know what quality work looks like? Is quality not even a real issue? Or do people just kind of go with the establishment, no matter how bad?



I'm with you on most of this. I've sort of wanted to go into business for 10 years, but never dove in for the reasons you've mentioned plus others. One other reason being money, I don't even have a suitable computer to edit photos. They're really excuses at the end of the day and I should just get off my butt and at least put together a decent portfolio. 

As far as quality, yeah the bar has been lowered. Another reason I haven't gone for it. If I'm going to do it I'm not going to be cheap.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that is seriously the most expensive inspirational poster I have ever seen.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

shortpants said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Of course I know it is. We've all spent years getting to where we are now.... but periodically I will take a gander at local photographers and, well, they're just awful. I mean, not all, but many are or are very inconsistent. I can't help but think that I have more technical experience and proficiency.
> ...



I know who you mean. I keep feeling like I'm just making excuse after excuse for myself about why I can't make money from my talent and experience.


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## rexbobcat (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> that is seriously the most expensive inspirational poster I have ever seen.



That's because it's not JUST a poster. It's canvas printed fine art. Duh.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

Oh god, it's on canvas too?

this is exactly why I don't print on canvas.


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## Murasaki (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Of course I know it is. We've all spent years getting to where we are now.... but periodically I will take a gander at local photographers and, well, they're just awful. I mean, not all, but many are or are very inconsistent. I can't help but think that I have more technical experience and proficiency.
> 
> Still, I am a bit reluctant. I don't know if my people skills are good enough, I've never ever been interested in portraiture, and even if I did gather up suitable equipment I am unsure how I'd even think about starting up. I don't really have a lot of friends and family and there are several studios that, even if their work ranges from tasteless to tacky to just plain snapshotty, it'd be very hard to promote a presence.
> 
> Do people even know what quality work looks like? Is quality not even a real issue? Or do people just kind of go with the establishment, no matter how bad?




I can only comment on this from the point of view from someone in Japan.

Most local photographers here need to have attended school to obtain a Diploma at least to become professional, they are judge by others all the time to make sure the quality of the work is to the highest level. They need to have a very high level of people skill and be very formal in speech and also at times be very diplomatic in conflicts with clients. Top photographers can make 80,000&#20870; (About $US825~$US835??) for 1 A4 size photograph and there are a lot of people that are willing to pay that.


I am only new to the forum, but the posts I have read of yours, you have high people skills when it comes to the forum, the few photographs I have see have been good. So if you think you can pull it off then have faith and jump in with both feet.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

In real life, I'm really very shy and have an intense and perhaps irrational fear of being considered some kind of pervert. The idea of working with women, especially teenagers, kind of freaks me out.

I'm just kind of awkward around people, at least offline and when I am not in a sort of official position where I am representing an employer.


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## IByte (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> In real life, I'm really very shy and have an intense and perhaps irrational fear of being considered some kind of pervert. The idea of working with women, especially teenagers, kind of freaks me out.
> 
> I'm just kind of awkward around people, at least offline and when I am not in a sort of official position where I am representing an employer.



You are going to have to throw yourself out of your comfort zone and getting shooting.... pictures.


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## mishele (Nov 3, 2012)

unpopular said:


> Oh god, it's on canvas too?
> 
> this is exactly why I don't print on canvas.


Don't get started on printing on canvas!! lol


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

Maybe I'll ask my brother in law if he knows anyone. He has tons of friends in the music scene here, and he might know people who need engagement sets as well.

Just to test the waters, you know...


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## pgriz (Nov 3, 2012)

My advice is for you to decide what you're really good at, then figure out how you will convince (ie, sell, persuade, influence, whatever words you want to use) your prospects that YOU are the one to give THEM what they didn't know they wanted.  Learn from the con-men who are convincing at selling whisp-o-wills to people who are convinced they are buying something of value.  It's unwavering confidence, and the ability to figure out WHAT they really want.  You, unlike the conmen, have real skills and something tangible to offer.  But you need to focus not on what you know you can do, but what your prospects are willing to pay you to do.  And you then have to figure out how to present it as something unique that only YOU can supply.  What is your "unique selling proposition"?


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## skieur (Nov 4, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ^^ you seem to do just fine, skieur.
> 
> I have also considered other routes, from real estate to an online service for small goods producers. There are a lot of people out there who sell little products online, like soaps, candies, canned goods and other gift items. They could send me a product sample and specifications, and I could return them with files to post on their ebay listings and home page. I'm wondering if there is a market there for this. Perhaps specialization is a better route than trying to compete with the oodles and noodles fauxtographic dreamers?



I highly respect intelligent and experienced photographers, as well as talented beginners as well as those willing to learn.

As far as doing just fine,...I do better than that.  This is my backyard.






skieur


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## unpopular (Nov 4, 2012)

go away skieur.


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## skieur (Nov 4, 2012)

unpopular said:


> go away skieur.



Jealous, perhaps?  Maybe, I am doing something right!  Intelligent people can learn even from those that they don't like.

skieur


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## rexbobcat (Nov 4, 2012)

skieur said:
			
		

> Jealous, perhaps?  Maybe, I am doing something right!  Intelligent people can learn even from those that they don't like.
> 
> skieur



Can't tell if trolling....


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## o hey tyler (Nov 4, 2012)

skieur said:
			
		

> Intelligent people can learn even from those that they don't like.



The real question is, can an intelligent person learn from an outwardly unintelligent person?


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## unpopular (Nov 4, 2012)

skieur said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > go away skieur.
> ...



If this were your back yard, or the backyard you have in your internet fantasy world, then you and I do not share the same values. Not even remotely. So am I jealous? Absolutely not.

I find you annoying, pompous, seemingly narcissistic and very likely a consistent liar. Frankly, you just annoy the living **** out of me, and I am pretty sure I am not alone in this assessment.


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