# Editorial comment..ok to delete



## mysteryscribe (Jun 17, 2006)

You know they have all these new things now. Digital camera, photoshop and a hundred clones and pieces of it, schools out the wazoo even, and Forums to discuss photography and yet we still advise younger photographers to find a working pro to observe.

When I started in 1969, there was a photographer in town who was pretty old by then. He was at least seventy and still working. Photographers did that back then.  Finding a kid like me was their retirement plan.  

His problem was that he needed help with the grunt work. He also didn't want to pay for it. He called the local technical school and spoke with an instructon. The instructor was mine. Her name was Barbara and we were friends as well as teacher student. I got the first chance at the job.

I had a 'real' job at the time so I jumped all over it. It was to carry his bags and load his cameras on location jobs. He ran his studio during the week but did weddings and company picnic kind of things on the weekend. I would have loved to take over his studio, but he made it plain from the start it wasn't going to happen.

What I didn't realize at the time was how valuable those few months were to me. Flint taught me how to learn and that's a fact. Barbara was teaching me the basics and Flint was teaching me how to learn the practical things that make a photographer work.

Barbara had me studying classical composition while Flynt taught me to look at photography as a craft, not an art. I was a ball of confusion for a long time till I found my place in it all. What that place is isn't up for debate as flynt was fond of saying. "It is what it is, no more no less."

The point is that I was damn lucky and hate that everyone doesn't have that kind of experience.

I used to have a copy of Edward Weston's day books. They were really a journal of sorts. In it there is this story about weston teaching a young photographer toward the end of his life. They were in a deserted mining town rumaging through the old buildings. Weston walked into a deserted cabin, the student was standing there looking lost.

"There's a picture here somewhere," she said. "I just don't see it."

Weston walked over picked up a single ragged, discarded boot and hung it from a nail. 

That discription of a boot on a nail was enough, I didn't even need to see it to know what it was. It's the kind of thing I took to heart. Somethings are almost a part of genetic memory. You don't need to go on forever about them. In the words of Flynt "They just are what they are, no more no less."

Feel free to ignore this since it isn't part of the mainsteam thinking these days. Just remembrances of an old man who needs to go shoot a pin hole or something.


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## JamesD (Jun 17, 2006)

I envy you.  The closest I've got is this and a couple other forums where I can ask questions, and of course, google.  There's a lot of information on the internet, and some very knowledgeable and talented people on these fora, but it's all still no substitute.  Oh, and Ed, down at the photo lab, who offers observations, comments, and anectdotes--he's like my patron when it comes to photography.  Even so, as it stands, it's taken a lot of trial and error, and a lot of examination, reflection, and evaluation, both of my work and my response to it.  Technically, artistically, and emotionally.  I think I'm getting a little better, though, especially with all the help I get here.


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## Don Simon (Jun 17, 2006)

I too envy you having a real teacher, especially one called Flint. For some reason I imagine him being like Robert Shaw in Jaws ("Wedding shoot? I'll get yer wedding shoot!") or Jack Palance, chain-smoking and swearing casually. I'd love to have learnt from someone like that, or maybe from a photographic Sensei... "First, you must photograph a fence". OK so I've just seen too many movies, but still I think it would be neat to have that kind of 'apprenticeship'.

As for your photographic methods and philosophy, I wouldn't worry too much about it being obscure or unpopular. Some of us have no excuse; having grown up with wonderful developments like autofocus cameras and APS film, and with digital now looking increasingly tempting, we still insist on inhaling dangerous chemicals (sometimes photographic ones too) and shooting with equipment older than our parents. For many here your work has an extra level of interest, because you don't just go out and buy whichever old camera is fashionable in order to be 'retro'; you even build them yourself. That's something many of us brought up with complicated computerised cameras can't even begin to contemplate. And even as the voice of convenience and the gear fetishist in my head are telling me to get an expensive digital, I feel that an approach like yours would make me think more about the image and less about the equipment used to capture it. Maybe occasionally we should all go shoot with a pinhole... (Or maybe I need to stop writing posts at 3 in the morning).


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 17, 2006)

Go for the pin hole keep writing.  It's how you understand yourself.  It has helped me to define myself.  

The pin hole is great fun by the way.,


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## JamesD (Jun 18, 2006)

I doubly concur.  There's nothing quite as satisfying as overcoming the frustration of estimating composition, winging exposure, tweaking development, and manipulating a contact print under an enlarger when you can't see the image your manipulating.

PH+PN=ROCKS!


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 18, 2006)

You know it wasn't just Flynt and by the way he was a small man with a Napoleon complex.  Very dictatorial, but you can learn from anyone even a man with a pin hole camera.

The funny thing is simultaneously, Barbara, who had never sold a photograph in her life, and Flynt, who's idea of great art was those picture of kids with huge eyes, are both pounding me with information.

I was working five days a week as a construction news service reporter, and at night listening to Barbara explain about composition, light, dark, texture and the like.  Then on the weekend Flynt would tell me to forget all that crap, cause people only bought picture of themselves and their family.  

"Learn how to shoot what the customer wants, and forget that other crap," he would say.  

Usually that was in response to, "Why don't we bring in the family cat for a shot of the whole family."

"Because when fluffy is gone, there will be ginger and you are dating the picture with fluffball in it."  He would respond that way or something like that.  No wonder I was so confused.

Of course Barbara had my attention on a much deeper level than Flynt.  So my very first photo decision was to join the local arts counsel as an artist member.  Now THAT was a humbling experience.  After two shows I had some idea of what it must have felt like to be a black man in the south.  Imagine if you will what I thought were good photographs hanging beside local painter's work in an exhibit.

The visitors just walking right past without looking was humbling but the arrogance of the high art (roflmao) local painters was a trip.  If I hadn't been such a tough guy I would have cried.  As it was I kicked a lot of furniture around.  After all I was only 24 years old and still thought life was fair.

And Flynt didn't help.  Every damn weekend he asked how the art was going, then laughed his ass off when I told him.  The man had no compassion, but he was a hell of a craftsman.  I wanted to drop that apprenticeship a hundred times but of all people Barbara kept me hanging in there.

Flynt wasn't known outside of our town, but he was respected in the local circles.  So I kept on letting him laugh at me while I lugged his crap around.  In exchange, after about six months, he let me shoot the reception pictures.  He would float in after the groups, make an appearance, then slip out a side door.  I was left to shoot the cake cutting and flower demolision deby aka bouquet toss.

I learned to make those shots, as well as how to get that disqusting punch down without making faces at the bride or the caterer.  I also met a lot of chicks lol...  If it wasn't for the chicks and barbara I would never have made it with Flynt.  I paid my dues roflmao


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## JamesD (Jun 18, 2006)

mysteryscribe said:
			
		

> I learned to make those shots, as well as how to get that disqusting punch down without making faces at the bride or the caterer.  I also met a lot of chicks lol...  If it wasn't for the chicks and barbara I would never have made it with Flynt.  I paid my dues roflmao



So that's what I'm doing wrong!  I was wondering why all the women weren't flocking to me... :lmao:


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 18, 2006)

You got to get yourself a bigger camera lol... 

At the encampment my camera was a big a hit as the actors. I had to leave so they could get their speil going.

Ya probably didn't know this but some days god looks over your should and forces you to screw up just to save your butt for you.  

For example I made a comment on a portrait.  Said something was distracting.  The shooter informed that it was supposed to be that way.  Of course before I could shut myself up, I had typed, "That's fine but it is still distracting for me."  

Now that was a stupid thing to do.  My second comment would not have helped the trigger puller at all.  It would only have made me appear to be a pompus jerk (don't say it)... It was off before I could stop myself.

Then I came back to see how much trouble I was in.  the post wasn't there.  I had closed the page without publishing it.  I was so thankful.  I gave that some thought and decided that it should be harder to post here.  Something like a twenty minute display with flashing signs 1.)  ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO SAY THIS.?..2.) HAVE YOU THOUGHT WHAT EFFECT THIS WILL HAVE ON THE RECEIVER OF IT?  3.)  IS THIS TRULY MEANT TO HELP THE TRIGGER PULLER. OR IS IT JUST AN EGO THING FOR YOU?  4.)  IS THIS EVEN IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO WASTE THE BITS ON?.......  IF YOU ANSWER THE CORRECT WAY TO ALL THESE QUESTIONS COME BACK  IN THIRTY MINUTES MORE AND YOU CAN HIT POST.


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 19, 2006)

One night during my very early days in photography, I was sitting in the apartment, doing I dont remember what, when Mattie aka Barbara (totally different story) burst into the room. She appeared to be angry since she threw a book at me.

"I hate teaching." She informed me. Since it wasn't the first time, and since I dodged things she had thrown before, I went back to whatever I was doing. Probably watching a black and white tv.

"Aren't you going to ask what's wrong," she demanded.

"Why bother? you are going to tell me anyway." I did smile, since I wasn't at all put off by her anger.

"One of those ******* middle-aged house wives tonight said to me, 'I only signed up to make better shots of my grandson. I don't care about all the rest of this. Just tell me what camera to buy and how to shoot his picture.' Damn it Deke, that isn't why I teach."

"No love, you teach for the 600 bucks, so that you can paint all day and complain about not being appreciated after class." 

NEVER TRY TO BE LOGICAL WITH AN ANGRY WOMAN.


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## JamesD (Jun 19, 2006)

ROFLMFAO!!


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 19, 2006)

What is truly weird is that I can look at the titles of the posts here and flash on things old timers said to me.  That one was a memory sparked by tell me what camera to buy as a title in another thread.  It's a never ending supply of material here.  Of course I'm sure there are plenty who wish I would just shut up.  

Then again, by now everyone knows pretty much what they will get from my posts.  It it upsets them, I guess they deserve what they get lol.


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 20, 2006)

Yesterday I got an email from my brother.  He is one of those compulsive emailers.  I get jokes and pictures from him all the time. Since most are humorous I just laugh and delete them.  I have to admit sometimes without even reading them.  Most are forwarded from one of his friends.

The one yesterday was forward from someone he knows, from a different lifetime I think.  Anyway it had a link to a picture framer's site.  The originator had his ART work there.  He had about a dozen picture of birds.  Now I don't know about anyone else, but a bird is a bird is a bird, unless he has a rattlesnake hanging from his mouth.  Good or bad doesn't make any difference at this point.

My point goes like this.  It is so inexpensive to have a presence on the net, that guys use your ego against you.  I was once looking to have a novel published.  So I tried the print media without much success.  I was brand new to the net, so I went looking.  The first thing I did was to disregard the pay me a grand and I'll send you ten copies of your book sites.  Also the send me a c note and I'll put it on the net to sell for you.

What I did find was a man who would let me upload it.  Make it available to my many, many (both) fans to buy on cd from him.  We split the sale price.  Sales were dismal to say the least.  He did no pormotion, at all, of any of his books, nor did the other guys who charged real money to host your book.

He made his money from your friends and family buying the one or two cd's.  I did it once for the "Look Ma, I got a book published" feeling.   After that I sold a few on ebay on my own.  I just wandered off the subject, sorry.

The point is that now there are millions and millions of pieces of photo art for sale on the web.  This guy is selling my brother's friend's pieces for a cut and more likely I'm sure, hoping to frame it at full price.  Now if he sells friend's family one each on the "Look Ma" list he has a no harm no foul kind of thing going. He doesn't have to have an Ansel Adams photographer.  As long as someone buys a pic or two he comes out smelling like a rose.

So now the net is going to be flooded with sites that sit there with images, just like my web site sits there with my images.  Does this water down or add to the Craft.  I have no idea, just a whole lot of mediocrity out there these days, but maybe we get what we deserve.  It's gonna be too few dollars chasing tooooooo much artwork I think.

If I were back in the business, I would be even more convinced of Flynt's statement.  People buy pictures of themselves or their family and friends.  Everything else is a shot in the dark.  I suppose with the massive amount of pictures on the net, the dark room has gotten larger.

Just one old man's opinion....


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 21, 2006)

I'm sure by now everyone is sick to death of hearing about my trip down retro lane, but until someone mercifully pulls the plug on this kind of thing, I will keep going because it helps me to think.

I have been posting some portraits that I shot at one of those living history events.  All out doors with no strobe light for even for fill.  Very much as the civil war era photographers would have shot them.  Which might account for the lack of subilty in the shots.  Over expose the highlights to kill the shadows.

However there is a huge huge difference.  That was hammered home to me when I realized that I had left an almost complete box of 4x5 negative material open in my dark box.  I have done that before with lesser amounts, so I pretty much knew they would be struck.   It was going to be hit or miss with the images.  Fortunately nothing of real importance was effected.  The crops might be a little tighter than I would ordinarily do but no big deal.

However it brought home something to me.  Now in 1860 a local photographer would have a dark wagon not a dark box.  He wouldn't stick his hands into a hot sweaty black box.  He would climb inside that hot sweaty black box.  Not only that he would have to construct it every time he used it. Some of them were medicine show kind of wagons, but most were just black tenst on top of a wagon frame. up and down they went.  First he would have to sit inside and make sure all the leaks were covered.

When he was sure, he would have to find glass plates in the dark.  Find the binder at that time it would like have been a form or egg white.  He would have to coat the glass then coat it again with the silver salt or other solution.  Then load it into a light tight holder and pass it out of the tent to the photographer or store it until he had enough to take them out and get a breath of air.

And I b**** about having to carry around those Heavy camera's and film holders.  This is not to mention the never ending troubles with film cameras and lenses of the era.  The saving grace was probably that the shutters were no more than open and close, or a lens cap.  There was nothing complicated about them.  Which is a lot like a pin hole camera today.  They even shot pin holes as real cameras during the civil war.

I have recently discovered the card camera.  It was really a camera with a nest of lenses.  It took several shots at one time.  The early walmart package printer.  I am probably going to do a replicant of the product but not the camera.  Of course the polaroid two shot ID camera would really do wonders for that.  Stick a 3x4 cut film back on one and have a heck of a deal there.  HUMMMMMMM...


Feel free to disagree or comment on anything I say here it is just my opinions after all.


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 21, 2006)

It is a curse in this 90+ degree weather but I'm afraid I will have to leave the house tomorrow.  I have run out of negatives from the sunday shoot.  It is time to shoot more junk...

I'm thinking marina fishermen one more time.  Now that I am back using sharper lenses and better digital proceedures it should be a little more productive.  I might go early in the morning before the sun gets too hot.

My wife mentioned some abandoned houses south of town.  I might go poke around one of those over the weekend.  I also might take a look for some historic thing somewhere within my limited driving range.  The old things that look good retro are fast disappearing.

Of course so are the photographers to shoot it.


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## JamesD (Jun 22, 2006)

Watch out for snakes and spiders.


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 22, 2006)

Watch out for snakes and spiders eh.  

The two legged kind worry me the most these days.  Poking around old deserted buildings in the back country of North Carolina (home of dueling banjos) can be nerve wracking.


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 22, 2006)

I went out to shoot this morning and I think I was snake bit.  I took two holder four shots with me.  At the marina I shot one of the lake which sucks composition is too flat.

Then I shot one of a little slice of the essence of the experience.  Yeah I know words way to big for a country boy.  But it speaks a little to the way the world has turned.  Either you will understand it or you wont.  I'm going back to my retro gallery here so it will be up later today.

But then I put holder two into the camera.  Within seconds I knew it was going to be crap.  Neither darkslide was properly seated.  I learned what went wrong earlier, but I hadn't noticed that I still had one of the previously poorly loaded holders.  I didn't even bother to shoot it.

I guess it's going to be 'one shot: one day' as a new rule replacing 'one shot one image.'  Though I did shoot 12 shots at the encampment and got 11 usable images.  I was very happy with that.  About five of them were more than simply acceptable to me, so I was happy with it.

On to something less pleasant than that even....  I wouldn't feel right if I didn't say this somewhere.  This seems like the place since no one will see it and it is generic to everyone not one individual..


You know, I was told that here people of all skill levels were shooting and posting.  I accept that.  I try to make judgements based on that simple assumption.  

What I am having a problem with, and probably shouldn't, since it means nothing to me personally, is people being paid for work that in my opinion isn't ready to sell.  The shots they post here have bits and pieces that aren't really up to professional standards... if you sell it they should be.  Some of it is fine, but some really shouldn't be up for sale. Most of it can be fixed with software and should have been already. I wonder if they plan to fix it before it is presented to the customer or if they think that it is acceptable, or even know that there is anything wrong with it.

I also wonder if that is what the serious professionals are talking about when they say these new guys are doing damage to the craft, as well as taking their business.  Everybody knows where I come down on the little guy stealing business, so I wont go into that again.  I will agree with this though.  So many of the shots I see need so little to fix post production, and so little to prevent the same thing from happening again, that I don't understand it.

That said let me tirade one more time.  Shooting for yourself and your mom is not the same as shooting for money.  When you get paid the customer has a right to expect certain things.  They have a right to expect you to do the very best job that you can, but even more.  They have the right to expect a product done to a higher standard of excellence than Uncle Harry would have done free.

Back in the day, I know you get sick of hearing that, we believed and I taught those who partnered up with me, do the safe thing to get the shots, then play with the craft.

If you are going to shoot outside, shoot to minimize the shadows at the very least.  That means fill light.  Now I know that somehow strobe light has come to be almost as bad as the F word, but guys you owe it to your client to get the shot first.  Learn to use your strobe, it is your friend not the enemy.

If you don't have or for some reason can't shoot a strobe, then at least meter for the shadows.  You don't have to totally expose for them but at least meter them into the lighting equation.  If you can't do one or the other, maybe you aren't ready to be selling your services.  These are basic to professional, meaning paid, photography.

God help me I'm beginning to sound like Flynt...


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## JamesD (Jun 22, 2006)

mysteryscribe said:
			
		

> Watch out for snakes and spiders eh.
> 
> The two legged kind worry me the most these days.  Poking around old deserted buildings in the back country of North Carolina (home of dueling banjos) can be nerve wracking.



That's the kind I was talking about. :mrgreen:


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 22, 2006)

I had a feeling...


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## malachite (Jun 22, 2006)

JamesD said:
			
		

> I envy you.  The closest I've got is this and a couple other forums where I can ask questions, and of course, google.


I had the pleasure of working with a absent minded, dyslexic fashion photographer named Butch. Learned the most just watching him in action because when asked, he couldn't explain a thing he did, he just did it, that's what he'd say. Of course the first memory I have that stands out was when he came into the front office, talking on is cell phone. Only thing I heard was "yeah, they're in there".............right as he covered the phone with his hand and whispered to me "Go out to my van and see if you can find Mindy's panties". 

Sharing the studio with him was Dennis, the Jack of all trades kind of photographer. He's the one who showed me how to develop B&W film and print a contact sheet. Helped him shoot a cover of Golf Digest with a 4X5 and a garden hose.

I have no idea how much I learned photographically that summer but I had fun. And we did find Mindy's panties just in case you were wondering. Why they were wrapped around a spoon was beyond me but I wasn't about to ask as I never got to meet Mindy anyway :mrgreen: 

Michael.............do you know where _your_ underwear is?


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## mysteryscribe (Jun 22, 2006)

Flynt was to old and too short to have a mindy it might have made him easier to live with.

I love the stories of those old days.  There are two kinds of photographers I wish I could have met.  One was a wpa photographer from the depression and the other  was a 1950's door to door photographer with a pony.  I think they would have some great tales to tell.


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## mysteryscribe (Jul 7, 2006)

You know what really amazes me.  

It's kind like those of us who grew up on film and went on to do digital respect the complete craft.  

Some of those who came into serious photography after digital got popular, can't see past their computer.  I guess it's how all new kids on the block (no matter what age they are) feel about us old timers.  It isn't the lack of respect, it's actually the 'my way is the only way' that frosts me.  You know it really isn't, I can take a digital camera and shoot it just like a film camera.  Take the card down to the prolab and just hand it over.  Just like I would a roll of film.  

I say that because I know half a dozen old timer, who are doing just that.  Pay some kid to do the editing and photoshop work for them.  One told me he can't justify spending his 200 a hour time playing with photoshop since he cant get it back directly.  He bills for his time on sight not his post production time.  

My son in law is a bit of a perfectionist.  He wants total control of everything, but even he laments about the time it takes to get all the images ready for dvd.  I like the editors as a digital darkroom.  Actually if it werent for them I would have to give up the craft completely.  

So yes digital is my friend in some ways.  In others I sort of resent it.  It seems to have taken the civility out of the craft.  I guess that happens whenever you throw an art or craft open to everyone.  

.....God i did love the good old boy club.......


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## Torus34 (Jul 8, 2006)

Am I reading between the lines, or do you have a file of 'war stories' stuffed into a folder and hidden away in a file cabinet in your mind?

If so, an open offer: If you want to jot them down, I'll proof and edit.  No charge.  [A courtesy to a professional.]


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## mysteryscribe (Jul 8, 2006)

Tons of stories lost in my brain somewhere.  I wish we had the stories from the guys who worked for the wpa during the depression, not just the pictures but the stories.

I wonder how many bridges of madison county there were out there.  Had to be a million stories that were mundane to them but we would love to read.  Well some of us would.


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