# Ethics question



## tirediron (May 6, 2016)

So I've realized that there are several potentially large and potentially lucrative markets that I could exploit, but I'm in a dilemma about how, or even if to attempt the exploitation. 

Background:  As some of you know, I do a LOT of work with the Wounded Warriors here, as well as a couple of other major charities.  Through that, I have met a number of fairly senior people within the sponsoring organizations; one being a large regional coffee shop chain, a major car dealership, as well as some politicians, and a few others.  We're not talking Mark Cuban or Jim Pattison, but they're not insignificant either.

What these groups have in common is either poor or no good business photography; staff boards, advertising, etc.  I think there's a dollar or two to be made and I know that I can give them a far superior product to that which they already have (if they have anything at all), BUT...  I am hesitant to approach them, since I only have their contact information through what I consider a privileged connection. 

So... would you:

(a)  Just call them up and make the pitch;

(b)  apply through "normal" channels; or

(c)  just skip it altogether?


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## KC1 (May 6, 2016)

C


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## ClickAddict (May 6, 2016)

Combination of A and B.  Call them up / or preferably when you have another reason to talk meet them.  Mention "I was interested in doing some photos... for your company...  I was just wondering if you could give me the name of the person I could contact.."  Something along the lines that lets' them off easily if they feel they don't want to make a favor beyond giving you contact info.  They can just give you the name.  The ones who will help you out further (present you to whoever makes the decisions and then offer up their reference) will step up to the plate.  Some people / companies always make people go through the proper channels, others are greatly influenced by being personally introduced.  Essentially asking for B but with possibility of getting A by pitching to them if they ask.


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## pjaye (May 6, 2016)

ClickAddict said:


> Combination of A and B.  Call them up / or preferably when you have another reason to talk meet them.  Mention "I was interested in doing some photos... for your company...  I was just wondering if you could give me the name of the person I could contact.."  Something along the lines that lets' them off easily if they feel they don't want to make a favor beyond giving you contact info.  They can just give you the name.  The ones who will help you out further (present you to whoever makes the decisions and then offer up their reference) will step up to the plate.  Some people / companies always make people go through the proper channels, others are greatly influenced by being personally introduced.  Essentially asking for B but with possibility of getting A by pitching to them if they ask.



I completely agree with this. I also don't see it as exploiting. You can provide MUCH better pictures for their benefit. Your heart is in a good place.


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## Rick50 (May 6, 2016)

A - Just be clear about where you got to know them (if they don't know already).


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## Gary A. (May 6, 2016)

I would wait until either I have a stronger relationship with them (assuming that the relationship is still on the newish side. A stronger region ship = more trust in you, your ability and your opinion.

Or if there is little chance/opportunity of that happening ... Then toss all regard into the wind and make a pitch.  

Remember that if they are successful without 'good' photography ... Then, why would they care to spend good money in an area which they may not need? Additionally, at best, if they appreciate your talent and what you've done on a common cause, they'll have you contact one of their minions who handles advertising/PR/marketing. If the subordinate isn't using pro level photography ... You'll need to convince them otherwise ... You need to convince them that pro level images will create a stir and generate far more monies than it costs. And what is typical with any minion, they feel a need to protect the boss and then will seek out other pro photogs and vet out who will deliver the most cluck for the buck.

Basically, good luck to you, something about a snowball's chance in hell comes to mind ... But, there may be an opportunity and by doing nothing there will certainly be no return.  By acting, at least you have a chance, granted a slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.


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## zombiesniper (May 6, 2016)

I agree with ClickAddict. It leaves the door open for them to do more than provide a contact but doesn't imply you are directly looking for a favour.


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## Designer (May 6, 2016)

tirediron said:


> (a)  Just call them up and make the pitch;
> 
> (b)  apply through "normal" channels; or
> 
> (c)  just skip it altogether?



I admit to being dense, but how are a and b different, exactly?  And no, don't skip it, so c is right out. 

Yes, go for it.  Even if you get one major client, that has the potential to spill over into another client when they see what you can do.  I see this as being somewhat of a consultant/photographer where you go through the complete advertising material, all the corporate material, and anything else they use photography for, and show them what can be improved and how you would do it.

I'm not seeing any breach of traditional ethics here.


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## tirediron (May 6, 2016)

KC1 said:


> C


Thanks!



ClickAddict said:


> Combination of A and B.  Call them up / or preferably when you have another reason to talk meet them.  Mention "I was interested in doing some photos... for your company...  I was just wondering if you could give me the name of the person I could contact.."  Something along the lines that lets' them off easily if they feel they don't want to make a favor beyond giving you contact info.  They can just give you the name.  The ones who will help you out further (present you to whoever makes the decisions and then offer up their reference) will step up to the plate.  Some people / companies always make people go through the proper channels, others are greatly influenced by being personally introduced.  Essentially asking for B but with possibility of getting A by pitching to them if they ask.


See the problem is, in the case of the two largest companies, I the owners/CEOs and have their personal e-mail addresses and I know if I e-mail them directly they will see the e-mail....



Rick50 said:


> A - Just be clear about where you got to know them (if they don't know already).


Thanks - they know.



Gary A. said:


> I would wait until either I have a stronger relationship with them (assuming that the relationship is still on the newish side. A stronger region ship = more trust in you, your ability and your opinion.
> 
> Or if there is little chance/opportunity of that happening ... Then toss all regard into the wind and make a pitch.
> 
> ...


Thanks Gary - valid points.  Our relationship is established; I've been working with them regularly for three years.  I don't think that my images will necessarily bring in more money, but they would give a better impression than the current "My kid just a got a camera, I think I'll get him to take some shots for the store..." quality images they currently use.



zombiesniper said:


> I agree with ClickAddict. It leaves the door open for them to do more than provide a contact but doesn't imply you are directly looking for a favour.


Thanks Alex!


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## tirediron (May 6, 2016)

Designer said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > (a)  Just call them up and make the pitch;
> ...


Sorry, to clarify:  In A I meant call the head honchos directly; I have their names, numbers & e-mails.  They take my calls.  B is simply using the generic company contact information on their website.


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## KC1 (May 7, 2016)

If you want to do it you will, and are looking for someone to say go for it.
Well, go for it then.
Have them over to your house for dinner one night, and have a lot of your best photos framed on the walls within sight. They may ask if you took all these... there's an opening.
They may not and you can casually mention you'd like the opportunity to do some work that you think could help the corporate image they (their company) are (is) projecting. and then mention the photos on the wall as examples...

Or use the plan you have already thought of. 
Good luck.


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## Designer (May 7, 2016)

tirediron said:


> Sorry, to clarify:  In A I meant call the head honchos directly; I have their names, numbers & e-mails.  They take my calls.  B is simply using the generic company contact information on their website.


"All is fair in love and war"  So if you've got an advantage, you should use it.  This, to me, is not crossing any ethical boundaries.  Just thank your lucky stars or however you express thanks for your good fortune, but I think you will know when there is an ethical line that you should not cross.  Besides; think of the connections as your Karmic payback for doing the pro bono work that you do.


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## MSnowy (May 7, 2016)

I say A. You do work for them now so you know going in how much they'll pay for professional pictures. As most everyone knows, these days it really comes down to money. I sure they would like nice images at a discount or free.


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## MidnightUK (May 7, 2016)

I dont know if its an accurate quote but someone told me Richard Branson said something along the likes of charity makes good business and he always expected to get more out of charity (in some form) than he put in.

If you are uncertain you could test the water by saying in passing conversation that you had been working with some business to clear up their presentation issues and how successful it had been - see if anyone asks for more info.

You could also keep an eye out for other 'trading' going on among the doners etc.  You could also try as a sweetener that every photo shoot you do, you will give a small donation to the general cause.  Then it will look as if you are also doing this for the charity as well as for business.


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## smoke665 (May 7, 2016)

It's called networking. If you were in the market for a car would you avoid the auto dealer. Hand them your card, make it known the business you are in and back off. If they show interest in talking further they'll let you know. If not let it go. Even if they aren't, there is still a good possibility they might mention you to someone else.That's why networking is so important to business people.


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## Gary A. (May 8, 2016)

#1. I would go at it a bit differently.  Go for it, but do so without using your personal contacts ... just to see what happens. If you succeed that way then all are happy and no questions of ethics, but use some of the images of the soldiers in your portfolio and you can chat about knowing so-n-so during interviews. The people you will be chatting with, most likely will be the same people the head guy/gal will send you to anyway.

#2. If it doesn't go anywhere, then speak to the head guy/gal.  Have a chat with them about how you can improve their company's image by improving their photography. Don't waste their time with idle chit-chat, be direct and to the point but also speak to them as a friend with a three year old relationship. Put up some shots on your website of exactly the products/services they provide and forward a link via email to them after your chat.

Or just skip #1 and go directly to #2 ... Designer is right business is business ... and Gary is right, don't expect too much out of this, (if they are very successful they get hit up all the time and they know how to say no all the time), but doing nothing will get you nothing ... and hopefully they will respect that you took three years to hit them up.


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## tirediron (May 8, 2016)

MSnowy said:


> I say A. You do work for them now so you know going in how much they'll pay for professional pictures. As most everyone knows, these days it really comes down to money. I sure they would like nice images at a discount or free.


Thing is I don't work directly for them.  I work for the Wounded Warriors, but the two companies in question are the major sponsors, so I've worked with them in the sense of providing images to them from the WW campaign.  



MidnightUK said:


> I dont know if its an accurate quote but someone told me Richard Branson said something along the likes of charity makes good business and he always expected to get more out of charity (in some form) than he put in..


I'm just the opposite.  I support a charity because I believe in the cause.  I don't expect to get anything out of it; in fact I only watermark the images I give them when they insist on it.  



smoke665 said:


> It's called networking. If you were in the market for a car would you avoid the auto dealer. Hand them your card, make it known the business you are in and back off. If they show interest in talking further they'll let you know. If not let it go. Even if they aren't, there is still a good possibility they might mention you to someone else.That's why networking is so important to business people.


They know me, they know I'm in business.



Gary A. said:


> #1. I would go at it a bit differently.  Go for it, but do so without using your personal contacts ... just to see what happens. If you succeed that way then all are happy and no questions of ethics, but use some of the images of the soldiers in your portfolio and you can chat about knowing so-n-so during interviews. The people you will be chatting with, most likely will be the same people the head guy/gal will send you to anyway.
> 
> #2. If it doesn't go anywhere, then speak to the head guy/gal.  Have a chat with them about how you can improve their company's image by improving their photography.* Don't waste their time with idle chit-chat, be direct and to the point but also speak to them as a friend with a three year old relationship. Put up some shots on your website of exactly the products/services they provide and forward a link via email to them after your chat.*
> 
> Or just skip #1 and go directly to #2 ... Designer is right business is business ... and Gary is right, don't expect too much out of this, (if they are very successful they get hit up all the time and they know how to say no all the time), but doing nothing will get you nothing ... and hopefully they will respect that you took three years to hit them up.


Thanks Gary!  That is an excellent idea!  I'm not expecting much out of it, and as much as they're used to saying, 'No!', I'm used to hearing 'No!', BUT... the business person in me says, "If you don't ask, you don't get!".


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## BananaRepublic (May 8, 2016)

tirediron said:


> So I've realized that there are several potentially large and potentially lucrative markets that I could exploit, but I'm in a dilemma about how, or even if to attempt the exploitation.
> 
> Background:  As some of you know, I do a LOT of work with the Wounded Warriors here, as well as a couple of other major charities.  Through that, I have met a number of fairly senior people within the sponsoring organizations; one being a large regional coffee shop chain, a major car dealership, as well as some politicians, and a few others.  We're not talking Mark Cuban or Jim Pattison, but they're not insignificant either.
> 
> ...



"Contacts through privileged connections" Sure isn't that why Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump are million/billion - aires


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## tirediron (May 8, 2016)

BananaRepublic said:


> "Contacts through privileged connections" Sure isn't that why Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump are million/billion - aires


Yessssss...  but you'll notice I also included the word "ethics".  Hopefully I've not yet sunk to the same level as people like that!


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## Didereaux (May 8, 2016)

I go with ClickAddict.  There isn't an ethical factor in this at all.  THere would be if you were using this as an inside way to a an open bid contract where others had to go through the front door.  Or they give you the bid amounts so you could under bid or some such.  But there is absolutely no ethics question in what you described.  It is a day to day normal transaction(or attempted) transaction.  Good luck with it... a few extra 'Loonies' never hurt, right?


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## tirediron (May 8, 2016)

Didereaux said:


> I go with ClickAddict.  There isn't an ethical factor in this at all.  THere would be if you were using this as an inside way to a an open bid contract where others had to go through the front door.  Or they give you the bid amounts so you could under bid or some such.  But there is absolutely no ethics question in what you described.  It is a day to day normal transaction(or attempted) transaction.  Good luck with it... a few extra 'Loonies' never hurt, right?


Thanks - I guess what I'm most concerned about is the potential for this to reflect badly on the Wounded Warriors.


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## vintagesnaps (May 8, 2016)

Exactly. You've been there on a volunteer basis. I don't see how it would be appropriate to approach the sponsors. And I would not use the Wounded Warriors photos for your own personal/business use.

Obviously the sponsors know you're a photographer. So if they wanted to contract with you I'd think they would contact you. Seems like they may not want to put money into contracting a photographer for their business.

I don't see offhand why you couldn't contact the sponsors' businesses directly just as you might with any business, but not use the Wounded Warriors project and use your own work instead. Of course they may recognize your name so I don't know if that could make for an awkward situation or not.

I've found one thing can lead to another, and if in the course of conversation it seems appropriate to mention that you do commercial (or whatever) photography, that would probably be as appropriate as someone asking 'what do you do for a living?'. But if that came up and someone expressed interest it'd probably be better to lead the conversation towards talking afterwards and go from there.

This seems somewhat like it would be using work time or work resources for personal use. I wonder if the WW would have a problem with you having your business cards with you if anyone asks about your photography background, experience, etc. which could lead to further work. But I would think beyond that they may not be happy with you approaching sponsors because that could seem like you're just using the WW to further your own interests.


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## tirediron (May 8, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> ...*This seems somewhat like it would be using work time or work resources for personal use. *I wonder if the WW would have a problem with you having your business cards with you if anyone asks about your photography background, experience, etc. which could lead to further work. But I would think beyond that they may not be happy with you approaching sponsors because that could seem like you're just using the WW to further your own interests.


 Excellent analogy [The other} Sharon, that really puts it in perspective.  I don't think the Warriors themselves would have a problem with it; they're very supportive of myself and the others who provide similar resources.  I think that I will just push it through the normal method; contact the individual outlets and see how it plays out.


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## ClickAddict (May 9, 2016)

tirediron said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> > ...*This seems somewhat like it would be using work time or work resources for personal use. *I wonder if the WW would have a problem with you having your business cards with you if anyone asks about your photography background, experience, etc. which could lead to further work. But I would think beyond that they may not be happy with you approaching sponsors because that could seem like you're just using the WW to further your own interests.
> ...




Are you being paid by WW or are you volunteering? (I assumed volunteering in my previous post)   The reason I ask, is that I agree with vintagesnaps that if you are being paid, it does pose an issue.  I would never start handing out business cards to people I meet through work, as that would be using company time to promote.  However, someone, I work with, that we have lunch together frequently, chat about how our favorite teams are doing... is a different story, because they are more than just business acquaintances at that point and discussing a photography business would be fine.  So it all depends on how well you know them.

If you are volunteering however, I see less of an issue.  Companies sponsor charities / events for two reasons.  1. They care about the cause.  2. The marketing potential.   Charities know this.  That's why the bigger sponsors get the biggest landscape on posters / billboards, T-shirts....  As much as they may care for a charity a business will rarely ever pass up the marketing it gets them.  You're a business.  You're donating your time rather than money.  No reason you cant use the marketing as well.  Keep in mind there is a line between seizing an opportunity to market and abusing it.  The fact that you asked about the issue, pretty much tells me I doubt you will abuse it.


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## tirediron (May 9, 2016)

ClickAddict said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > vintagesnaps said:
> ...


I'm strictly a volunteer; just agreeing that the analogy was appropriate, not the circumstances.  That is, access to things you wouldn't otherwise have access to.  Thanks!


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## table1349 (May 9, 2016)

If a lawyer takes a worthy cause case pro bono is it unethical for that same lawyer to seek out paying clients?  In a business world networking is the key.  You have all come together for a worthy cause, that is networking.  Contact them, lay out your abilities to improve their product and call it a day.  They are all big boys and girls that got where they are by doing the exact same thing.  The can decide for themselves if they feel you are right for them and their product.  Obviously they feel you are right for Wounded Warriors.


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## tirediron (May 10, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> If a lawyer takes a worthy cause case pro bono is it unethical for that same lawyer to seek out paying clients?  In a business world networking is the key.  You have all come together for a worthy cause, that is networking.  Contact them, lay out your abilities to improve their product and call it a day.  They are all big boys and girls that got where they are by doing the exact same thing.  The can decide for themselves if they feel you are right for them and their product.  Obviously they feel you are right for Wounded Warriors.


You used "lawyer" and "ethics" in the same sentence!!!!


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## astroNikon (May 10, 2016)

tirediron said:


> See the problem is, in the case of the two largest companies, I the owners/CEOs and have their personal e-mail addresses and I know if I e-mail them directly they will see the e-mail....



Couldn't you approach them in a different fashion via a direct follow up ..

Dear Mr CEO,
Recently I did the photography of xxxxx for the Wounded Warrior / Charity / etc.
I hope that you enjoyed your time with me in creating the memorable photos and hope that you enjoy them for years to come (or good for the organization, etc).

If I can be of service to you anytime in the future I also do photography for (a), (b), (c).
I provide the highest level photographic quality and I'm sure I can improve your companies /product /etc image through my skills as a photographer and marketer/whatever especially compared to the existing one's which sux (okay, maybe keep that part out).

But if you leverage a followup with your service I think it comes out a bit better than trying to do a sales job.  So many CEOs get calls for 10 minutes of their time to try and sell them something.


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## smoke665 (May 10, 2016)

Thanks - I guess what I'm most concerned about is the potential for this to reflect badly on the Wounded Warriors.[/QUOTE]

First off as the Father of a combat disabled vet, my appreciation goes out to all who volunteer for this great organization. As to the ethics, question, there is a fine line between being vulgar about promoting your interests while volunteering and making your capabilities known to others. Just remember that while many of the business people there might be at the upper echelon of their organization, it doesn't mean that they make the day to day buying decisions for their organization. That's likely delegated to subordinates who might not have a clue who you are. I see no problem with having a business card handy in case someone asks about your business, or telling them that if they have a need you'd be happy to make an appointment to discuss your capabilities.


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## MidnightUK (May 14, 2016)

If this situation is still worrying you, why not speak to some of the high ups in WW and see what they think.  They may give helpful advice. They could be board members, not the sponsors.

By the way, I did not agree with the quote about Richard Branson, I meant that many people involved in charity may view it as 'scratch my back and I'll scratch yours', it might be just you that is thoughtful enough to be hesitant.


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## fmw (May 14, 2016)

Just as these people do things to promote their businesses, it is perfectly fine for you to promote yours.  Send an email explaining how you might help them promote their businesses.  If they are interested they will say so.  If not, it cost you nothing to explore the possibility.  We call it networking.


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## vintagesnaps (May 14, 2016)

I would think it could get back to the WW that you're approaching their sponsors if any of them say something. I don't know that it would sit too well.

Of course networking happens and as Smoke665 was talking about, there may be an opportunity to give someone your card. I think it depends on the situation and if/when it works into the conversation, etc. I'd probably be asking one of the people in charge what's acceptable to them if I wondered what was best to do.

If I feel like getting to do something is a privilege, then I wouldn't want to compromise that, I'd want to respect it. Seems like something of an honor to be asked to do this and I wouldn't want to take advantage.


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## tirediron (May 14, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> I would think it could get back to the WW that you're approaching their sponsors if any of them say something. I don't know that it would sit too well.
> 
> Of course networking happens and as Smoke665 was talking about, there may be an opportunity to give someone your card. I think it depends on the situation and if/when it works into the conversation, etc. I'd probably be asking one of the people in charge what's acceptable to them if I wondered what was best to do.
> 
> If I feel like getting to do something is a privilege, then I wouldn't want to compromise that, I'd want to respect it. Seems like something of an honor to be asked to do this and I wouldn't want to take advantage.


Yep, that's the way I'm thinking now.  It's a cause I believe very strongly in, and I think at least for now, I'll leave at "and if there's anything else I can do, don't hesitate to call."  Somethings just aren't worth messing up over a few dollars.


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## chuasam (May 28, 2016)

#a
business is business


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## tirediron (May 28, 2016)

chuasam said:


> #a
> business is business


Yep, and my self-respect is my self respect.


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## chuasam (May 28, 2016)

tirediron said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > #a
> ...


These car dealers make money too. You need money. I need money. I like to eat. And it's spot Prawn season


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## sashbar (May 28, 2016)

I know what I would do, but if it is a moral dilemma for you, just ask yourself a moral question:  "Do I just want to exploit this opportunity to make a dollar or two, or do I want to do a good thing for these people, so we will both benefit from it?".  Give yourself an honest answer and then act accordingly.


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## table1349 (May 28, 2016)




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## tirediron (May 29, 2016)

chuasam said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > chuasam said:
> ...


It is... the fishing boat just down the road has a big sign out, BUT...  I can live of KD & weenies too.


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