# Adapting flash bulb system for theater



## Cadcoke5 (Oct 25, 2016)

I am part of a community theater that is staging Miracle on 34th St, and we have some  vintage cameras for the reporters to use. I was surprised that it is still viable to purchase flash bulbs, and have now opted to use them, rather than any effort to try to convert the cameras to use an electronic flash.

However, the battery for our Polaroid Land camera is a 22 1/2 v, the size of a 9-volt.  I know this because there is one installed....  needless to say, it is dead. There is also a capacitor about the size of a C-sized battery.  I understand this was to permit the user to connect and trigger several flashes.  But, we don't need to do that.

What is the voltage normally used to trigger a single flash?  Perhaps I can just remove the capacitor and 22 1/2 v battery, and replace it with a pair of 9 volt batteries. Can anyone verify this?

Also, I have seen some different bases for flash bulbs.   When I am shopping for bulbs, what is the term for the base style this camera used in its Polaroid capacitor flash?

Later next year, we will be doing "Singing in the Rain", which is staged in 1927. Fortunately, the flash bulb was available that year, and so I don't need to simulate flash powder.   I may have to use a camera a bit newer than that, or do some creative mock-ups.  But I have some older flash units, from perhaps the late 30's or 40's.  Again, what voltage should I use?

Thanks for any advice.
-Joe


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 25, 2016)

Don't know the voltage but try asking on the forum and/or Flickr discussion page for http://www.filmphotographyproject.com .

Look up a guy that does conversions that goes by Option 8 (might be his ebay name and/or website I can't think of it offhand). I don't know if it's possible to replace the capacitor but Land cameras can be converted to use I think AA batteries.

Which camera model are you planning to use? It could make a difference in what battery it used. And if you just need a flash to fire and don't need it to shoot film you might just need the flashcubes made for that model.


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## Dave442 (Oct 25, 2016)

The earlier flash bulbs required a higher voltage. You might look to modify the flash gun to hold a newer, lower voltage, bulb (whatever bulb you find most available). 

Haven't bought a flash bulb since the '70's and even then it was hard to find the right one for the flash gun (had two hand-me-down flash guns and they both used different sized bulbs).

For general safety I would lean towards a mock-up with an electronic flash providing the light.


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## compur (Oct 25, 2016)

1.5 to 4.5 volts will fire most small flash bulbs. They're easy to test. Simply connect one battery terminal to the tip of the base and the other to the side of the base. If it flashes then you have enough voltage. As a theatrical prop you can rig up a battery holder with a momentary push button switch to fire them.

Polaroid made hundreds of different camera models using different types of bulbs and electronic flashes so if you want more information I suggest stating which model you have.


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## Cadcoke5 (Oct 25, 2016)

Thank you all for the replies. 

I only need the flash to work.  I am trying hard to avoid damaging the camera, both because we plan on reselling it after the shows, plus I don't like destroying old things.  

It looks easy enough to install any sort of battery pack, that will fit within a 2"x2"x1" cube, and then perhaps I can just have a small wire pair that comes out to a momentary button that I just hot-glue into place.  I have found that the flash bulb size is a "Press 25".  But, I have not yet found data on its normal triggering voltage/current.

-Joe


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## Cadcoke5 (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks Compur, it seems we were typing at the same time.  I did get some more information on the flash bulb.  

P25 also known as Press 25. , 3-45V,  MOL 2-5/8", BA15s Single Contact Bayonet, Same as #5

-Joe


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## compur (Oct 25, 2016)

Two or three 1.5v batteries should fire it fine.

Be advised that #25 bulbs can spit out bits of hot glass when they fire so they should have a transparent cover of some sort in front of the bulb if fired near anyone. The flash is also bright as hell and can temporarily affect vision of the poor actors it is fired at.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 25, 2016)

That's probably why they made the later flashes with the blue cover for Land cameras... OK I had to go look this up... apparently the Land camera was brand new at the time the movie came out. Here's the brochure on Mike Butkus' site. http://www.polaroid-passion.com/manuel/manuel-polaroid-95a-95b-700.pdf
They used wink lights... I thought someone was making a new version of a wink light so maybe you'd find a old working one or see if the newer one fits that camera.

I think those used roll film but realized you were talking about just getting a flash working not the camera. This shows a TV show commercial of taking a 'selfie'! lol You could look on YouTube and see if you find a video of your camera in use with a flash but since those took roll film I don't think anyone much would be using one in recent years.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 25, 2016)

If the photogs aren't facing downstage, it might be easier to use electronic flashes from the wings set off by stage managers


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## compur (Oct 25, 2016)

American news reporters in the 1940s used mostly Graflex press cameras.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 25, 2016)

Here's a Graflex page on press camera bulbs. It gives safety info. at the end and mentions bulbs exploding; later the coated ones weren't so likely to be at risk for that, I don't know if a later coated bulb would work in your flash but might be a better option and easier to find. Flashbulb Technical Data

It might be more of a challenge to find something authentic to work with an early Land camera model. This shows a flash that must predate the wink light, is this the type flash you have? Maybe see if you can find a manual for your camera model, could be it's an early one.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 26, 2016)

Folks...it's community theater, not Broadway for Pete's sake. Lol


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## compur (Oct 26, 2016)

Advanced Photo said:


> Folks...it's community theater, not Broadway for Pete's sake. Lol



Meaning what?


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 26, 2016)

compur said:


> Advanced Photo said:
> 
> 
> > Folks...it's community theater, not Broadway for Pete's sake. Lol
> ...


Meaning that absolute adherence to making sure to use the correct the props is not the goal here, it's to entertain the local people that will not care about what cameras the extras in the street scene are using.  They will be watching their friends and families perform a play, not judging the correctness of the props used.


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## table1349 (Oct 26, 2016)

compur said:


> Advanced Photo said:
> 
> 
> > Folks...it's community theater, not Broadway for Pete's sake. Lol
> ...


Meaning never send you printing needs to a company that doesn't believe in doing the best possible in all things.


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## table1349 (Oct 26, 2016)

OP, you didn't put down where you are at nor where this production is being done.  Have you considered going to a brick and mortar photography shop that handles used gear?  Our local shop the owner is a prolific collector.  Just about anything you can think of even up to and including a full size 1920's theater movie projector.   He has happily lent cameras as props to the high school where my daughter was in drama as well as to some of the local theater groups.  All he asks is a line with his stores name as supplying some of the props on the hand bill.


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## compur (Oct 29, 2016)

Advanced Photo said:


> ... absolute adherence to making sure to use the correct the props is not the goal here, it's to entertain the local people that will not care about what cameras the extras in the street scene are using.  They will be watching their friends and families perform a play, not judging the correctness of the props used.



I see. The dumb local yokels won't know the difference anyway so why bother being accurate?

It must be nice being so brilliant on such a wide range of topics.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

compur said:


> Advanced Photo said:
> 
> 
> > ... absolute adherence to making sure to use the correct the props is not the goal here, it's to entertain the local people that will not care about what cameras the extras in the street scene are using.  They will be watching their friends and families perform a play, not judging the correctness of the props used.
> ...


Have you ever been involved in community theater? Are you speaking from experience or do you just think all people are dumb locals?
I think they are intelligent people with better things to do than judge a performance by the props used.


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## table1349 (Oct 29, 2016)

Actually YES.  

I've been involved in the theatrical arts for 40 years, summer stock, community theater, college theater as well as professional theater.  Not once was I a part of any production that they didn't try to get it right.  That is why every theatrical group no matter what the status has a list of people/businesses who are happy to lend props of various types to make the production successful.  The one time that authenticity is second is when safety comes first.  Depending on that type of prop it may be a stage safe item or an item that is handled by one special person before, during and after every performance,


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Actually YES.
> 
> I've been involved in the theatrical arts for 40 years, summer stock, community theater, college theater as well as professional theater.  Not once was I a part of any production that they didn't try to get it right.  That is why every theatrical group no matter what the status has a list of people/businesses who are happy to lend props of various types to make the production successful.  The one time that authenticity is second is when safety comes first.  Depending on that type of prop it may be a stage safe item or an item that is handled by one special person before, during and after every performance,


The question was to Cumpur, not you, I guess you missed that there was a quote in the post.  Thanks though.


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## table1349 (Oct 29, 2016)

Open forum free for any and all with KNOWLEDGE to post to.  Which makes me wonder why you are posting.   Thanks though.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Open forum free for any and all with KNOWLEDGE to post to.  Which makes me wonder why you are posting.   Thanks though.


LOL ok, you too.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 29, 2016)

Maybe the OP takes pride in this, whatever the size or location of the production, and wants something to be as authentic as possible.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

I agree with that, the key being "as possible" considering a budget they have to work within.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 29, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> Maybe the OP takes pride in this, whatever the size or location of the production, and wants something to be as authentic as possible.



Agreed. When an inauthentic and obvious prop is used then it attracts attention and breaks the suspension of disbelief. 
Prop masters try very hard to match props to the production.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the OP takes pride in this, whatever the size or location of the production, and wants something to be as authentic as possible.
> ...


Yes. Absolutely. But not at the cost of breaking the bank for the acquisition of some extremely valuable antique. That's why they make their own props on many shows, movies and plays. Star Trek used parts of a razor as the nacells on the original Enterprise. The phasers and tricorders were made of blocks of wood.
The use of paste jewelry is common in film and theater. Is it what the Queen actually wore? No. Does it matter? No.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 29, 2016)

Tldr


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

The_Traveler said:


> Tldr


what the heck is that anyways? Why don't you learn to type?


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## compur (Oct 29, 2016)

Advanced Photo said:


> Have you ever been involved in community theater? Are you speaking from experience or do you just think all people are dumb locals?
> I think they are intelligent people with better things to do than judge a performance by the props used.



I have been involved in quite a bit of theater, film and television production, yes.

My comment about locals was an example of sarcasm meant to reflect the arrogance that comes across from YOUR posts, not my personal opinion. But, I think you already knew that.

Why don't you just let others discuss what they wish to discuss? If members of this forum wish to discuss vintage camera hardware used as theatrical props then ... will it kill you to just let them discuss it?


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 29, 2016)

compur said:


> Advanced Photo said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever been involved in community theater? Are you speaking from experience or do you just think all people are dumb locals?
> ...


I don't remember telling anyone what to discuss and what not to discuss, in fact I was discussing it too. Imagine that.


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## Dave442 (Oct 29, 2016)

My point on adapting an electronic flash into one of the old bulb flash units was basically two reasons. 

Flash bulbs can explode (especially if you are trying to go complete authentic with non-plastic covered units). You don't want blue color bulbs - that was for color film and your photographer would be shooting black & white.  

If the setting is very early in the history of the flash bulb then they were the screw in type. I never used those, but I have used the bayonet type and those we would just pop out onto the floor and let people step on them. In either case a just-used flash bulb is hot and I've burned my fingers a time or two and broken a number of used bulbs on the floor.

An older style flash bulb unit with the large screw in bulb could easily hold a small electronic flash head that could be fired whenever required by pushing a button. The actor could simulate changing the "used" bulb after each shot.

Now the good thing with the old flash bulb style units is they are very durable.


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## Derrel (Oct 29, 2016)

From what I've read about the old days, among the folks who shot rapidly or repeatedly when using larger flashbulbs, a folded handkerchief was pretty common for protecting the hand when changing a still-hot flashbulb. Plenty of 1940's and 1950's literature I've read recommends using a hanky for removing the hot flashbulb when needing to shoot a quick second or third shot. Larger bulbs, like those that would have been commonly used with sheet film press cameras, were pretty hot right after the shot was fired. I can see that simulating a flash bulb in use by means of a small electronic flash bit fitted inside the reflector on a modified, era-specific flashgun would probably be acceptable to many community theater directors. But hey...if actual, real flashbulbs must be used, then, well...


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## table1349 (Oct 29, 2016)

The one concern I would have with doing a modification would be the electronics you would have to fit inside.  I'm not sure I would want to handle a homemade modified unit with a high voltage capacitor in it.  If not properly done it could sure light up someones stage performance.


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## Advanced Photo (Oct 30, 2016)

You can use a 12 volt  LED like the cree xlamp LED and simple button press electronic on and off again set up to simulate a flash.


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## compur (Oct 30, 2016)

gryphonslair99 said:


> The one concern I would have with doing a modification would be the electronics you would have to fit inside.  I'm not sure I would want to handle a homemade modified unit with a high voltage capacitor in it.  If not properly done it could sure light up someones stage performance.



You don't need any electronics beyond a battery to fire a regular flashbulb. The high voltage capacitors (around 300+ volts) are used for electronic flash units. Capacitors were also used on the old Polaroid "Wink Light" flash which used a quick burst of about 45 volts shot through an incandescent type bulb normally rated for 12 volts. The quick shot of current made it "wink" brightly but was too brief to damage it. The Wink Light was not as bright as electronic flash or flashbulbs but it was smaller and lighter than electronic flashes of the day and didn't consume flashbulbs. When electronic flash units got smaller the Wink Light became obsolete.

A regular flashbulb (#25 or similar) will fire by simply connecting two or three 1.5 volt batteries to its base.


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## table1349 (Oct 30, 2016)

compur said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> > The one concern I would have with doing a modification would be the electronics you would have to fit inside.  I'm not sure I would want to handle a homemade modified unit with a high voltage capacitor in it.  If not properly done it could sure light up someones stage performance.
> ...


True but some seem to be talking about modifying a modern flash to fit in a bulb flash handle.  A Graphex 3 cell flash handle would have plenty of room to do so, it would be dangerous if you didn't know what you are doing.  I mention the Graphex 3 cell as the are simple and cheap to find.  The originals aren't cheap but because of their popularity there are lots of reproductions on the market.


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## compur (Oct 30, 2016)

Then just get a little Vivitar flash on eBay for a few bucks, tape it the side of the camera and push the little test button to make it flash.


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