# Grave Yard By Deon Hamilton



## yahgiggle (Dec 20, 2013)

just a grave yard photo i took that i think works better in black & white


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## jenko (Dec 21, 2013)

I am seriously wondering what is up with the trademark? Can trademarks even be used on regular "birth" names? 

Are you trying to protect the name "Deon Hamilton" or the image? 

I'm confused.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 21, 2013)

seriously dont over think it im here for photos not my name


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## KmH (Dec 21, 2013)

Then why is your name (with the TM abbreviation) in the title of every post you start?


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## yahgiggle (Dec 21, 2013)

Dont worry about my name and get on with looking and commenting on the photos ;-D


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## robbins.photo (Dec 21, 2013)

Ok, well as to this particular photo, honestly it just doesn't work for me at all.  Too much detail lost as a B&W shot, not enough contrast between many of the scene elements as a result.  I think this shot would work much, much better in color - frankly in black and white it's simply too muddled.   

As to the Deon Hamilton trade mark deal, I hope you realize I have no intention of sending you a quarter whenever I feel the need to use your name.  Seriously though, you might want to rethink the trademark deal - not sure if it was meant to be witty or what not but it just really comes of badly.  Its kind of like folks that insist on referring themselves in the third person.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks for your comment ;-)


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## manicmike (Dec 21, 2013)

Great, another person that puts their name in every thread title.


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## robbins.photo (Dec 21, 2013)

manicmike said:


> Great, another person that puts their name in every thread title.



Well at least he filed something with the patent office first.. rotfl


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## jsecordphoto (Dec 21, 2013)

response by jsecordphoto*&#8482;
*
this one too, not sure why you chose portrait orientation. composition is ehh


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## weags77 (Dec 22, 2013)

I think you really need to read some books on composition. I've looked over most of the photos you've posted here and composition is what you really need to work on in just about every one of them. From subjects dead center, to parts of subject cut off, centered horizons, etc, you have broken most every composition rule on a consistent basis. And while rules are made to be broken and should be, I don't think you are doing it intentionally for artistic purposes as much as I just don't think you know enough about composition in general. 

Do yourself a favor and step back from "showing off" your work and instead learn about the fundamentals of photography. 

Just my opinion though. Hope this helps.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 25, 2013)

weags77 said:


> I think you really need to read some books on composition. I've looked over most of the photos you've posted here and composition is what you really need to work on in just about every one of them. From subjects dead center, to parts of subject cut off, centered horizons, etc, you have broken most every composition rule on a consistent basis. And while rules are made to be broken and should be, I don't think you are doing it intentionally for artistic purposes as much as I just don't think you know enough about composition in general.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and step back from "showing off" your work and instead learn about the fundamentals of photography.
> 
> Just my opinion though. Hope this helps.




Thanks for your comment something that will help me and is why im posting my images ;-D  So could you recommend a book ?


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## weags77 (Dec 26, 2013)

yahgiggle said:


> Thanks for your comment something that will help me and is why im posting my images ;-D  So could you recommend a book ?



Some of the best ones I've read, I'm sure there are many more. In no order of importance. 

The Photographers Eye by Michael Freeman

The Art of Photography by Bruce Barnbaum

Digital Landscape Photography by Michael Frye

Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson

Any one of these will help get you started. I've chosen these for they are more story than textbook and don't overwhelm you with technical jargon. I'd also google "rule of thirds" or "golden rule" for a basic introduction and good place to start.


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## amolitor (Dec 26, 2013)

Someone might benefit from some reading on composition, but it's arguably not the OP.

This is pretty strong.

Obviously it's vertical because the main elements in it are vertical. As for the rest of the composition, there's good balance of forms, of light and dark. You could quibble about the placement of the horizon, but since this isn't about sky against land, it's not at all clear to me that one or the other needs to dominate (which is what the "don't put the horizon in the middle" is actually about). This is primarily about the forms in the graveyard, so the horizon line hardly matters.

The white stone on the left edge of the frame could usefully be given a little more room to breathe, either by stepping back slightly, or by stepping to your left a little (being careful not to choke off the tilting stone on the right's space, though).


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## weags77 (Dec 26, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Someone might benefit from some reading on composition, but it's arguably not the OP.
> 
> This is pretty strong.
> 
> ...



Well I'm guessing this was aimed at me. Feel free to browse any of my photos and critique their composition. Then look at the OP's many other offerings. If at that time you come to the same conclusion so be it. I never said I didn't need any work or knowledge of composition myself. I'm guessing you probably do to. As we all can benefit from learning as much as we can. 

That being said its funny that your main critique here is focused on the OPs composition of this photo, yet still implying that it is "pretty strong".

 For one, the centered horizon does in fact hurt this image. All of the subject matter is in the foreground and placing the horizon in the center muddles the graves that are close to the horizon. No separation. And using B&W did not help this.

 Correct me if I'm wrong but when composing a photo that contains 90% of the subject matter in the foreground, I'd tend to want to emphasize the foreground, not cut it in half, no ? You yourself said you can't figure out which one dominates here. You don't see a problem with that ? Should the horizon or the sky still take up 50% of an image in which it plays no part in the subject matter ? 

If he raised the horizon to the top third or even the bottom third it would allow the graveyard to dominate and get the separation it needs to be effective. At least that's how I look at it. There are no rules that have to be strictly followed in composition, but usually when you decide to break them, it's for a reason. And I just don't see the reasoning here. This image could be much stronger if he followed some of those rules. 

I'd be willing to bet that the OP has given little thought to composition at this point in his learning process. That's just an observation based on this photo and many of his others. The images themselves show that he knows the technical side of things but these images could be made much more interesting with better composition of his subject matter. 

My opinion, and that's all it is, still stands that he could use some help in the composition department. And judging by your critique as well as a few others here, I don't see anything that's gonna change my mind.


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## leeroix (Dec 26, 2013)

Looks like a pretty miserable place to be laid to rest...


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## sashbar (Dec 26, 2013)

manicmike said:


> Great, another person that puts their name in every thread title.




I would not put these two guys in the same league.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 26, 2013)

I did a crop and left it in color, is this any better, to me i like the black and white more


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## weags77 (Dec 26, 2013)

yahgiggle said:


> I did a crop and left it in color, is this any better, to me i like the black and white more
> <img src="http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62875"/>



I like the edited one better. While I think you could have composed the original shot better in camera by keeping the horizon away from the grave on the right (maybe shoot it from a lower perspective), the cropped and color version works better for me. I think moving the horizon to the upper part of the photo gave the foreground visual priority and the color gives it more depth. 

What do you think about the edit besides preferring B&W ? Is there any difference between how you see the two photos ?


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## yahgiggle (Dec 26, 2013)

weags77 said:


> yahgiggle said:
> 
> 
> > I did a crop and left it in color, is this any better, to me i like the black and white more
> ...



yep i see it makes this photo more about the grave yard than the sky but i do feel the black and white makes it feel more gloomy.


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## weags77 (Dec 26, 2013)

Well at the end of the day that's all that matters. Whichever way you see that best communicates what you're trying to communicate, either in camera or during post. 

As a viewer I prefer the color and the new crop. But amolitor liked the B&W. It's subjective and everyone will have their own opinions and reasons why. It's up to you to decide which one best conveys the scene as you want us to see it.


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## paigew (Dec 26, 2013)

I like the color version better. To me, in the b/w everything blends together. I don't particularly care for the composition. I probably would have gotten a lot lower when I shot this.


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## runnah (Dec 26, 2013)

Bw version has too many similar tones in close proximity. Darkening the water and sky would help bring the attention of the viewer to the right spot.


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## Centropolis (Dec 27, 2013)

I think this picture is "too busy" for me.  I don't know where I should be looking at.  If you're trying to make a picture to give the idea of a scary place to be....then I would zoom out a bit to get more of the tombstones to give more eerie feel.

In the B&W version, the sky is blown out so you should do some localized adjustments there or just crop to less sky.


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## JTPhotography (Dec 27, 2013)

Wondering if you guys are missing the funniest part of the OP's post..... "Before you judge Negative, Please provide your own similar work for a positive example", then asks for critique. 

OP, do you only want positive comments???

Here are my comments, the photo doesn't work and suffers from several fatal flaws.

1. Too many blown highlights.
2. Centered horizon. Composition 101
3. The flared out levels of the two tall structures are even with the horizon. A depth killer.
4. Cluttered foreground. There is so much going on there, barely anything is distinguishable. 
5. Looks to me like you shot this standing up, from eye level. You just can't shoot a scene like that. Here, you need to vary your perspective and experiment with DOF, or else all of your photos will look like a jumbled mess.

As for the trademark, it is just odd, even more bizarre than when you see these people start watermarking thier photos a week after buying their first DSLR from the Sam's Club.


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## DanielLewis76 (Dec 27, 2013)

yahgiggle said:


> yep i see it makes this photo more about the grave yard than the sky but i do feel the black and white makes it feel more gloomy.



IMHO a photo is about everything in it and how those parts interact with one another. You can't just ignore the sky section because you think the photo is about the graves.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 28, 2013)

JTPhotography said:


> Wondering if you guys are missing the funniest part of the OP's post..... "Before you judge Negative, Please provide your own similar work for a positive example", then asks for critique.
> 
> OP, do you only want positive comments???
> 
> ...



i am posting my photos here so people will give Negative feedback i like good feedback but really i am after the Negative ones. all i am asking is if your going to make a Negative comment to also provide your own similar work for a positive example of what your talking about to show me how i should be doing it ;-D  for the naming and the &#8482; if you have a problem with it that's your own problem not mine. i don't do photos to make money its JUST a hobby so im not worried if anyone took my photos, not that anyone would want them anyway lol but at lest they will know who took them unlike many of you silly buggers who don't put your name on anything. also ive always been told to name your work ;-P


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## JTPhotography (Dec 28, 2013)

yahgiggle said:


> JTPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > Wondering if you guys are missing the funniest part of the OP's post..... "Before you judge Negative, Please provide your own similar work for a positive example", then asks for critique.
> ...



I gave you plenty of negative comments and didn't provide you with an example, if you don't like that then that is your problem. Consider yourself lucky that better photographers are willing to give you feedback at all, arrogantly expecting them to do even more will get you nowhere. In fact, it will make people dislike you. Can you see that is already happening?


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## weags77 (Dec 28, 2013)

yahgiggle said:


> i am posting my photos here so people will give Negative feedback i like good feedback but really i am after the Negative ones. all i am asking is if your going to make a Negative comment to also provide your own similar work for a positive example of what your talking about to show me how i should be doing it ;-D  for the naming and the &trade; if you have a problem with it that's your own problem not mine. i don't do photos to make money its JUST a hobby so im not worried if anyone took my photos, not that anyone would want them anyway lol but at lest they will know who took them unlike many of you silly buggers who don't put your name on anything. also ive always been told to name your work ;-P



What you SHOULD do is allow us to edit your photos so that we can give you positive examples using your own work. Asking someone to post one of their photos to illustrate how to correct your photos just isn't gonna help you all that much. As you will find out, or hopefully are finding out, their are many things that go into making a good photo. You can't just get by snapping photos with poor composition or with crappy light and expect to fix all that in post. Especially when you don't like to "photoshop". 

You want examples of how to do things "right" then do yourself a favor and look at some of the amazing images people post here on a daily basis. Or anywhere else on the web. 

 As I've said before and still stand by, take a moment to let what's been told to you sink in. Learn, read, practice and observe. Post a photo every now and then with what you've learned and see if anyone else feels you've made progress in the areas that are CONSTANTLY being told you need work on, i.e mainly composition. 

I think what most people here get annoyed with is someone posting a ton of images asking, how can I make this better, getting advice, and then putting up another bunch of photos that show that no thought has been given to any of the advice previously mentioned. 

You NEED to learn composition, the basic fundamentals of it. Im not basing my opinion off of one photo. Ive looked at almost ALL of your threads and composition is your number one problem in almost all of them. I've given you books and tips as have others.

 It's up to you now where you go from here. You will learn NOTHING expecting others to show you how to do things with their own work. Experiment, it's frickin digital for crying out loud. Shoot a thousand pictures to get one good one if need be. Put some effort into it and you might be surprised at the results.

 I mean honestly if I was you I wouldn't post a single photo until I've read up on some composition and put it into practice. It's hard to tell someone what to look for when they have no idea what you're talking about. Just telling you about the rule of thirds wont help you if you don't understand why you should know about It. And honestly, as a photographer at any stage of development, if you are not even aware of basic composition fundamentals, you are going to have a hard time learning it. Learn how to compose, expose and develop on that order. Then ask questions from there. 

It's not that I don't think you can  benefit from our help, it's that I just don't see you as someone that has put that much time into learning for yourself.


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## HughGuessWho (Dec 28, 2013)

JTPhotography said:


> ... Consider yourself lucky that better photographers are willing to give you feedback at all, arrogantly expecting them to do even more will get you nowhere. In fact, it will make people dislike you. Can you see that is already happening?



Pot, meet Kettle...


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## JTPhotography (Dec 28, 2013)

HughGuessWho said:


> JTPhotography said:
> 
> 
> > ... Consider yourself lucky that better photographers are willing to give you feedback at all, arrogantly expecting them to do even more will get you nowhere. In fact, it will make people dislike you. Can you see that is already happening?
> ...



?


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## Rick58 (Dec 28, 2013)

Man there are some serious egos flying around here. 

First, who the flip cares about his name and or copy write symbol. This is supposed to be about the photo

Second, The guy just asked for some examples how it could have been done differently or better. I see nothing wrong with asking for an example. That's why photos are included in instructional books, isn't it?

Instead, the guy is being told he's just lucky to be breathing the same air as the likes of the good people here.

I see things never change around here.


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## Rick58 (Dec 28, 2013)

Op, here's a couple suggestions. I cropped the photo to 8x10 and cut off some of the sky, bringing the horizon to the upper third, then I played a little with the sliders to open up to tones. Something I don't like, but can't do anything about is the white stone on the left and the square'ish foreground stone. They are both too cramped. You could shift the frame a little to the left, but watch out for that foreground stone wall. I like that detail, and would hate to loose it.


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## Overread (Dec 28, 2013)

And that's enough of the drama/arguing/bickering.

Focus on the photography everyone.


(((darn it Rick couldn't you have waited 4 more seconds to post that )))


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## weags77 (Dec 28, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> Man there are some serious egos flying around here.  First, who the flip cares about his name and or copy write symbol. This is supposed to be about the photo  Second, The guy just asked for some examples how it could have been done differently or better. I see nothing wrong with asking for an example. That's why photos are included in instructional books, isn't it?  Instead, the guy is being told he's just lucky to be breathing the same air as the likes of the good people here.  I see things never change around here.



I think you are missing the point. Much like the OP. if he wants help, let us edit his photos. I don't so much care about the trademarking his name thing. Little wonky yes, but who am I to say.  

 My problem is the OP has come here to get tips suggestions, and "negative comments" yet does not have a good enough background to learn from these comments. It's like asking someone to teach you how to drive a car by watching them drive and having no idea what speed limits, gas pedals and the reason for using blinkers are. Then when given detailed suggestions and reasons, for example, why the B&W doesn't work here, the OP says he likes the B&W better because of the "gloomy" look. I just see this as going more for the look of a photo and not so much the story it should tell. Which is fine too if that's your thing. 

  I think there are definitely a few egos running rampant here but I'd say the OP and the guy who writes books on composition, might be the biggest offenders. You can only tell or show someone so many times before you realize they just don't have the knowledge or desire to understand what you are talking about.   

That's why I suggested he read books or learn some other way and not just post a ton of pictures. We shouldnt have to tell someone more than a few times not to center a horizon, or not to leave a subject DEAD CENTER of the frame. Look at his previous posts. It is obvious that none of the suggestions are sinking in. Do you really think someone showing him how they composed their photo, will make any difference when he can't see the faults in his own work ?  

There is such a vast wealth of knowledge available to us that asking someone to hold their hands through learning the most basic of fundamentals shows a lack of work ethic in my opinion. If he wants someone to teach him everything, there are classes for that as this isn't really the place to learn composition from scratch. . If he wants to expand on his knowledge or fine tune it this is where he can do that.

   Ill ask the OP, have you, since you've started posting here, made any effort to study composition on your own ? Either by googling it, reading it or becoming at the very least familiar with it ?  I'm guessing he's maybe put a few minutes at best into studying it and judging by the other threads, has not even taken the time to put the suggestions to good use by re editing them. And I think that's what is most annoying. 

He did re edit this shot but NONE of the others. And his responses are often defensive and sarcastic. Not exactly the best way to solicit help from people if he's actually serious about learning.  It is apparent by the 30 threads he has started that he has a vast library of photos to work on it just doesn't look like he wants to put in the time to do so.


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## weags77 (Dec 28, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> <img src="http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63021"/>
> 
> Op, here's a couple suggestions. I cropped the photo to 8x10 and cut off some of the sky, bringing the horizon to the upper third, then I played a little with the sliders to open up to tones. Something I don't like, but can't do anything about is the white stone on the left and the square'ish foreground stone. They are both too cramped. You could shift the frame a little to the left, but watch out for that foreground stone wall. I like that detail, and would hate to loss it.



I like this edit much better. Still muddled a bit with the B&W from that vantage point but better separation nonetheless. I just hope he doesn't get mad about you editing his photos as his profile states its NOT OK to do so.


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## Rick58 (Dec 28, 2013)

My apologies to the OP. I should have checked, but didn't. I see your photo's are not to be edited. If you like, I'll be happy to remove my edit.


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## limr (Dec 28, 2013)

I also like Rick58's edit the best. I do agree with the OP in that black and white suits this scene better than the color. I'm not particularly fond of the color version myself, but as mentioned, this is totally a matter of preference so to each his own.

At first glance, the original picture isn't that bad, but it also doesn't have anything that makes it stand out. As others have mentioned, there are composition issues that prevent it from having the potential impact that it could have. The conversion seems not-quite-right. Too contrasty, making it seem busier than it already is. 

A few things I would have done:
1) Lower angle
2) Pick one of those tombstones as a clearer focal point
3) Wider aperture to get a shallower depth of field to isolate that focal point more clearly and take some attention away from the more distracting and busy elements of those lower stones. The shoreline in the background is also kind of busy and I'd like to take attention away from that as well.
4) Take a few steps to the right where some more of the lines would work better together. There are too many angles and that creates a discordance that is not visually appealing. Make those lines work better together.

Sometimes I see a scene like this and think, "There's a good picture in here somewhere." If it's not immediately obvious how I want to take the shot, I'll walk around the whole scene looking through the viewfinder, trying to see different angles, different potential compositions. 

With a busy scene like this, it's really important to spend some time looking at it from different vantage points. Sometimes none of them work. Sometimes what you see in your head is just better than what is actually in front of you. That doesn't mean you can't get a good shot, but that you most likely won't get the shot that you originally intended.


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## JTPhotography (Dec 28, 2013)

NOWWWW its feeling like Christmas with the family around here! :mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## yahgiggle (Dec 29, 2013)

Its all good guys don't fight, all of the photos here are ones ive taken before i came to this forum, so its not that im not learning i am, also im ok with the edits its fine cheers ;-D


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## sashbar (Dec 29, 2013)

I will add my 2 p here as well. The main problem with this shot is not technical it is the content. It is very mixed and controversial. You have the graves, the lake, the perspective, the horizon, a lot of sky,  the far away trees and houses (?) - and everything in one shot. The mood is mixed, you can help it with edits.  Different parts of the picture project different feelings and mood. To me the image is too confusing.


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## batmura (Dec 29, 2013)

How about getting really low and close to the cross in the foreground to isolate it with perhaps a shallow depth of field? If I were you, I would avoid cramping as many elements as possible into a frame as it rarely serves a purpose and creates chaos for the viewer. While taking photos like this, I advocate the less is more philosophy as a single point of interest has the potential to draw and hold the viewer's attention before allowing them to further scan the frame. If you also include a solid background element such as the towers or pond in your case, they will help to bring back the eye to the main element rather than wandering aimlessly. I do have some cemetery shots of isolated tombstones and crosses but don't think posting them here would improve this image or your composition.


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## yahgiggle (Dec 29, 2013)

I think the problem with my composition is the leaning cross's i know stuff should not look like this because its not nice to look at but wanted to try it out anyway turns out none of it has worked maybe if it was just one leaning cross that may have looked less messy o well, ill go back and do some more photos there and see if any will work later next week


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## manaheim (Dec 29, 2013)

It's a shot of a graveyard, and like most such shots, it lacks anything obvious to look at (i.e. subject)

It DOES capture the mood well, which is usually a failing in these shots. 

Overall I'd give the image a 6.


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