# Another Forum Bites The Dust



## smoke665 (Aug 29, 2022)

Photography forum - Photography-forum. org, is shutting down Sept 1st, after 15 years. They cited a big drop in sponsorships, paid memberships, postings and increasing high cost of hosting as the reason. They went to a Face Book page and suprisingly saw a dramatic upswing in the activity by members many who hadn't been on in years. Sign of the times?????


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## webestang64 (Aug 29, 2022)

If this place goes to FB, see ya.


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## Space Face (Aug 29, 2022)

No loss to be honest.  It was a very cliquey place I found.  Stopped using it a long time ago.


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## Jeff15 (Aug 29, 2022)

I agree with Space Face.....


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## cgw (Aug 29, 2022)

Suspect photo.net is circling the drain, too. Switching to a social media platform here is like turning a favorite neighborhood dive bar into a drive-thru liquor store.


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## mjcmt (Aug 29, 2022)

BTW, what do you guys think of the forum PhotographyTalk? I tried to like it but its a bit quirky w/ small feedback. I just can't seem to be involved or accepted. Maybe it's just me.


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## nokk (Aug 29, 2022)

mjcmt said:


> BTW, what do you guys think of the forum PhotographyTalk? I tried to like it but its a bit quirky w/ small feedback. I just can't seem to be involved or accepted. Maybe it's just me.


i tried that one recently, it feels like the twilight zone of photography forums.  my biggest issue there was all of the random followers i get with no interaction.


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## smoke665 (Aug 29, 2022)

Space Face said:


> No loss to be honest.  It was a very cliquey place I found.  Stopped using it a long time ago.



There were a couple that way but not all. Biggest problem i saw was the lack of posts.

As to social media  vs forums, is there really any difference when the forum format turns into a "like" platform rather than a critical appraisal on photography.


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## dolina (Aug 29, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> Photography forum - Photography-forum. org, is shutting down Sept 1st, after 15 years. They cited a big drop in sponsorships, paid memberships, postings and increasing high cost of hosting as the reason. They went to a Face Book page and suprisingly saw a dramatic upswing in the activity by members many who hadn't been on in years. Sign of the times?????


Last month I started visiting online forums I registered with 15-20 years ago.

What I've observed is

- ~20% are offline with lapsed domain name registration
- ~20% are online but >90% are filled with spam bots
- ~50% are still active but a fraction of the users are posting

This may be caused by

- Facebook
- change of interest
- change of financial circumstances
- death

Yesterday I stopped posting on Birds of the World - Feathers and Photos - Australia's bird photography forum because the mods do not want to address user concerns. I would not be surprised if that forum will be devoid of living users before the Summer Games.

I am thankful that the owners of ThePhotoForum 📷 Film & Digital Photography Forum updated their forum software to year 2022 standards. A lot are still using software from ~20 years ago.


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## dolina (Aug 29, 2022)

mjcmt said:


> BTW, what do you guys think of the forum PhotographyTalk? I tried to like it but its a bit quirky w/ small feedback. I just can't seem to be involved or accepted. Maybe it's just me.


I wouldn't bother. I think they're interested in your credit card


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## smoke665 (Aug 30, 2022)

dolina said:


> This may be caused by
> 
> - Facebook
> - change of interest
> ...



With all social media there's an ebb and flow, as circumstances and interests change. Added to your list, you need "a varied mix of image genre postings" to keep things interesting. We live in a "click and scroll" world where unless something piques our curiosity we quickly move on. Its sad, but a good spirited argument really draws out the comments.

Finally, I view forums as a "place of learning". Social media like FB is a place where people post to stoke thier ego. Likes, nice shot, and good job seem to be the majority of responses. IMO forums "should" be a place of learning where critical reviews provide another set of eyes to guide us. TPF was like that at one time, you didn't ask for critique unless you were thick skinned, but you learned in the process, over time it's become less so. Many of the knowledgeable photographers willing to help are gone, and a large section of the current members are either unwilling to spend thier time commenting, they're uncomfortable doing so, or don't feel qualified to do so. Photograpy-Forum fell somewhere in between,  there was a lot of clique stoking egos, and the occasional valid critique.


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> With all social media there's an ebb and flow, as circumstances and interests change. Added to your list, you need "a varied mix of image postings" to keep things interesting. We live in a "click and scroll" world where unless something piques our curiosity we quickly move on. Its sad, but a good spirited argument really draws out the comments.
> 
> Finally, I view forums as a "place of learning". Social media like FB is a place where people post to stoke thier ego. Likes, nice shot, and good job seem to be the majority of responses. IMO forums "should" be a place of learning where critical reviews provide another set of eyes to guide us. TPF was like that at one time, you didn't ask for critique unless you were thick skinned, but you learned in the process, over time it's become less so. Many of the knowledgeable photographers willing to help are gone, and a large section of the current members are either unwilling to spend thier time commenting, they're uncomfortable doing so, or don't feel qualified to do so. Photograpy-Forum fell somewhere in between,  there was a lot of clique stoking egos, and the occasional valid critique.


There's less barriers to entry, less friction & a flattened learning curve to use Facebook vs photo forums like thephotoforum.

Like, with Facebook my password credentials from my personal account carries over to Facebook groups.

No need to register, again.

Another would be the friction of sharing photos. On Facebook it's just a simple upload and the photos are displayed instantly.

For photo forums... you have to upload to the forum's server if they allow it or hotlink it from sites like flickr. To share you need to understand BbCode or at least know how to copy & paste it to here.

1-click solution vs ~1 dozen-click solution

If you've been using online forums prior to Facebook or even during the rise of Facebook then this skill was a necessity but with almost everyone on FB then it becomes optional.

Another allure of Facebook is that your contacts in real life that you see daily, weekly, monthly or annually will see your work. Not putting down photo forums but everyone here's largely a real life stranger that odds are we'll never meet in person in a casual manner.

This may be on a case to case basis but some photo forums think they can be as strict & stringent as they want like it was a decade ago and provide a "take it or leave it" approach to their members.

You need to follow rules A, B, C or D or we'd ban you account! Or worse delete your post that you took time to share for the most esoteric reason that only 1 person had an issue with while the rest find it too mundane to whine about.

They do no consider the decline of active membership that whatever users that remain are doing them a solid by sticking around & sharing their images.

Unlike a decade ago where in there are more new members signing up than users ceasing activity this is not the case today.

Now, there are far fewer new sign ups & more users not posting anymore.

As a user you have zero say on how the admin/mod decides on their forum. The best you can do it take your clicks away from them.

That's how forums die.


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## smoke665 (Aug 30, 2022)

dolina said:


> Another would be the friction of sharing photos. On Facebook it's just a simple upload and the photos are displayed instantly.



That simplisty comes with a price. When you upload to FB they crush your image, so much so that if I want an image to display correctly I still use a link.



dolina said:


> Not putting down photo forums but everyone here's largely a real life stranger that odds are we'll never meet in person in a casual manner.



Networking is what you make of it. I have several friendships that originated on TPF that I communicate with offline via phone, email, and FB. 



dolina said:


> some photo forums think they can be as strict & stringent as they want like it was a decade ago and provide a "take it or leave it" approach to their members.



Apparently you've never been censored or spent time in FB jail. 😞 I got hammered once because I said I'd love to spend some time in studio "shooting" a friends daughter. Apparently "shooting" is a terrorist word that goes against community standards.Theres also censorship 8f your image goes against one of their vague commun8ty standards. My experience with FB has always been a "take it or leave it" attitude. 



dolina said:


> Now, there are far fewer new sign ups & more users not posting anymore.



I agree with you here. IMO the cell phone is the culprit. We live in an instant gratification society. You can snap a shot with a cell phone, add filter effects and upload to FB in the blink of an eye. I don't believe there are as many hobbyists as there once were. You cant drop $$$$ on a cell phone then drop another $$$$ on a camera.


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> That simplisty comes with a price. When you upload to FB they crush your image, so much so that if I want an image to display correctly I still use a link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Preamble my reply isn't an endorsement of Facebook. It is an explanation why many photogs prefer to use it over any photo forum.

I happen to like photo forums but I am not blind to see why Facebook has a gravitational pull on anyone and everyone.

It is the preferred town square and photo forums are today's online equivalent of art houses.

>  That simplisty comes with a price. When you upload to FB they crush your image, so much so that if I want an image to display correctly I still use a link.

It is like a film maker like Christopher Nola insisting that their masterpiece be released 1st in the cinema vs being put onto HBO Max. During pandemic no one went to the cinema but everyone signed up for HBO Max.

Or Tailor Swift not wanting to work with Spotify and prefer to do CD or vinyl. 

In both instances you're limiting your audience and views.

I agree with you but what's the trade off? 

Facebook vs any photo forum

- 1 click vs ~1 dozen click to share a photo?

- Facebook friends' views vs Dozens of unique views from "strangers" or experts? 

It is very difficult to get in real life friends to visit my Flickr account. No problem with my Facebook account as my Facebook wall's feed is auto added to their Facebook newsfeed.

It is a "push" vs "pull" dilemma

Postpaid smartphone subscribers gets "pushed" a new iPhone every 24-36 months and be paid on a amortised manner. 

Digital still cameras need to be "pulled" and BH Photo gives you up to 12 months 0% interest equal installment.

A photo that is not seen is not a really useful photo.

>  Networking is what you make of it. I have several friendships that originated on TPF that I communicate with offline via phone, email, and FB. 

That is true. I have made friends largely because of the internet that I would never have access to in real life. Again it is inertia. If the audience is in Facebook then you need to adjust and go to Facebook.

This is why photo forums die.

> Apparently you've never been censored or spent time in FB jail. 😞 I got hammered once because I said I'd love to spend some time in studio "shooting" a friends daughter. Apparently "shooting" is a terrorist word that goes against community standards.

Someone must not like you enough to report you. 

I've used the word "shoot" sparingly on Facebook and have yet to encounter any problems with it.

> Theres also censorship 8f your image goes against one of their vague commun8ty standards. My experience with FB has always been a "take it or leave it" attitude. 

If it is nudity or gore of any sort then I agree with Facebook deleting it. They do not want the bad press that will impact shareholder's value.

If I had kids I would not want them looking at nudies on their Facebook account.

Last thing I want people to see is me scrolling on Facebook for unintentional porn.

That's why their are other venues for this subject matter.

>  I agree with you here. IMO the cell phone is the culprit. We live in an instant gratification society. You can snap a shot with a cell phone, add filter effects and upload to FB in the blink of an eye. I don't believe there are as many hobbyists as there once were. You cant drop $$$$ on a cell phone then drop another $$$$ on a camera.

I think smartphone helped popularized photography and lowered the barrier to entry to even persons making $0.50/hour.

Even I have to admit the utility & portability of a dedicated still camera cannot beat a smartphone.

If I want to buy a $1099 smartphone I can pay for it $45.79/month on a 24 month contract or even less on a longer contract.

I want a $5999 FujiFILM GFX 100S body but I'd have to have a SSN to avail of the 12 month 0% interest BH Photo installment plan. That's $499.92/month for a max of 12 months?


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## pendennis (Aug 30, 2022)

cgw said:


> Suspect photo.net is circling the drain, too. Switching to a social media platform here is like turning a favorite neighborhood dive bar into a drive-thru liquor store.


They're difficult to contact for problem solving.  I registered, but forgot to add a screen name.  Once the ID was set, I couldn't go back and add one.  I contacted them via the required folks, but never got a response.  The site content was interesting enough to re-register, so I did.  However, it looks as though the site could use a major refresh, more to do with site content, etc.


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## RAZKY (Aug 30, 2022)

Facebook. The name is enough to scare me off! Too stupid for my likings.


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## RAZKY (Aug 30, 2022)

mjcmt said:


> BTW, what do you guys think of the forum PhotographyTalk? I tried to like it but its a bit quirky w/ small feedback. I just can't seem to be involved or accepted. Maybe it's just me.


Hah! It's ridiculous. Go to "Forums, Latest Posts," and what do you get? "Recent Topics." How stupid is that?? Two entirely different subjects. Their moderators do not appear to be very bright, but perhaps English is not their first language, so maybe I shouldn't be too critical. I comment occasionally, but of course don't expect many intelligent replies.


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## smoke665 (Aug 30, 2022)

@dolina as I mentioned earlier, once they went to a FB page, the number of postings went up substantially. I'm curious to see if that continues once the newness wears off.

As to FB censorship, they use a variety of AI algorithms to monitor traffic. It's not just nudity that gets you censored, things like war photos, rioting street shots, or any number of images the AI deems unsuitable, could get censored or at least "covered" requiring the viewer to click to uncover.

I'm not against FB or forums, I do believe there should be a difference in their direction as mentioned above (post #11). Unfortunately that doesn't always happen. In the case of Photography-forum, it appears that it was primarily death from boredom.

I am confused by your comment about 1 click vs multiple clicks in using links. I use Flickr (primarily because it links to LR), to share a link, click on the photo in Flickr, hit the share emblem,  then BBCode, copy, paste in your post in TPF.


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

@smoke665

> as I mentioned earlier, once they went to a FB page, the number of postings went up substantially. I'm curious to see if that continues once the newness wears off.

I'd like to clarify are you talking about a FB page like say a "smoke665 Photo services" or FB personal profile?

If it's a FB personal profile then odds are people who follow or a contact of yours will engage with you so long as the subject matter is interesting to them.

Like say my FB personal profile. My contacts do not care about birds so my engagement with them is very low. If I join a FB group for bird photographers then my engagement skyrockets because they like birds.

> things like war photos, rioting street shots, or any number of images the AI deems unsuitable, could get censored or at least "covered" requiring the viewer to click to uncover.

In the 2-3 dozen photo forums I am registered at I have yet to see war & riot photos having its own section.

Many forum members do not actively produce or view them.

So the AI censorship isn't much of an issue or even a concern.

In other words I'd stop using Facebook if snuff photos/video were not filtered out.

I've actively reported parents who post photos of baby nudes on Facebook. They may find it _normal_ in their household and that's their business but to post it on their Facebook wall should never be allowed.

Why? It's junk I do not want to look at.

Going to my original point... photo forums die when members stop participating.


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## cgw (Aug 30, 2022)

pendennis said:


> They're difficult to contact for problem solving.  I registered, but forgot to add a screen name.  Once the ID was set, I couldn't go back and add one.  I contacted them via the required folks, but never got a response.  The site content was interesting enough to re-register, so I did.  However, it looks as though the site could use a major refresh, more to do with site content, etc.


PN was Phil Greenspun. Once he sold it in 2007, the site steadily lost the smart, funny, generous community it attracted since the mid-90s. A string of snarky mods and dead-hand management created more problems than they solved. Seems populated now mostly by a cast of cranks, scolds and boors who split hairs and scuffle in the low-traffics forums.


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## smoke665 (Aug 30, 2022)

dolina said:


> I'd like to clarify are you talking about a FB page like say a "smoke665 Photo services" or FB personal profile?


They went to a FB page



dolina said:


> n the 2-3 dozen photo forums I am registered at I have yet to see war & riot photos having its own section


This was an example, and not intended as all inclusive. Anything that the AI detects as violent in nature could be subject to being covered.


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> This was an example, and not intended as all inclusive. Anything that the AI detects as violent in nature could be subject to being covered.


I dont want to see physical violence on my Facebook newsfeed.

Many other people do not want to see it either.

So what is the issue?


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## smoke665 (Aug 30, 2022)

dolina said:


> I dont want to see physical violence on my Facebook newsfeed.
> 
> Many other people do not want to see it either.
> 
> So what is the issue?


The only issue is what you're trying to make of it. I merely stated that FB has rules regarding posts, same as most forums. My OP wasn't about FB or which was better, it was about the demise of a photography forum.


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> The only issue is what you're trying to make of it. I merely stated that FB has rules regarding posts, same as most forums. My OP wasn't about FB or which was better, it was about the demise of a photography forum.


Dude you made up so much extreme scenarios that I was wondering if you were younger than me.


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## CherylL (Aug 30, 2022)

I've seen that happen with video editing forums that was once booming and now are ghost towns.  

Facebook is for sharing photos with friends and family.  I am on a few FB photography groups, but not for technical help.  The groups are for meetups or someone looking for a 2nd shooter, or asking for areas of interest to shoot sessions.

The same for Flickr is a social site where this forum is for technical with a little social mixed in the coffee house.


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## Photo Lady (Aug 30, 2022)

As long as this one stays.......


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## dolina (Aug 30, 2022)

CherylL said:


> I've seen that happen with video editing forums that was once booming and now are ghost towns.


Video has a higher barrier to entry and is more time consuming than photos.

As such I think the early video editing forums gave budding professionals a leg up onto work in the video market.

As they're getting a lot of paid gigs they do not have time participate on any online forum.


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## SquarePeg (Aug 31, 2022)

I like a mix of online forums like this one for discussion and photo sharing and Facebook groups.  I’m in two different types of FB groups.  Some are local with many people that I have met up with for photo outings and become friendly with.  It’s nice to have people to shoot with when you feel like some company.  The other end of that are the subject specific groups like Fuji X or Photoshop or Creative Macro.  These are more about equipment and technique  questions or when I want critique from people who don’t know me and have no qualms about being harsh because they have no interest in my feelings!


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## SquarePeg (Aug 31, 2022)

To add - for subject specific groups I only join private groups that will not show my posts in my FB feed.  I use my Facebook account more for personal connections with friends and family than for photo sharing.


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## CherylL (Aug 31, 2022)

dolina said:


> Video has a higher barrier to entry and is more time consuming than photos.
> 
> As such I think the early video editing forums gave budding professionals a leg up onto work in the video market.
> 
> As they're getting a lot of paid gigs they do not have time participate on any online forum.


There are professional video editing forums which are still strong (Creative Cow)  There were many others geared to the hobbyist.  People that needed help converting camcorder analog & HD video to digital.  VHS tapes, mini VHS, mini DV & HD tapes.  You had to know codecs and file formats.  Then converting those files for upload on a platform (YouTube) or to DVD.  Now with SD cards it goes straight to upload to your computer. The consumer video editing programs have easy "share to" buttons when you are done.  Before you had to plug in all the numbers for 1 pass or 2 pass or keyframes, etc.

Vimeo in the early days was a community of hobbyists and artists.  Now it is geared to the professionals.  Sadly that sense of community has been lost.


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## smoke665 (Aug 31, 2022)

SquarePeg said:


> I like a mix of online forums like this one for discussion and photo sharing and Facebook groups.


Same here. I learned a lot from some of the oldies on TPF, sadly many of them are no longer on here. I've moved past posting for ego stoking, so the only thing I really post on FB are family pictures anymore. Haven't done much on here of late as other things have tugged me in different directions. Sadly the level of critique on TPF has waned, I'd hoped that the C&C Gallery might draw more interest, but that's a subject for another thread.


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## CherylL (Aug 31, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> Same here. I learned a lot from some of the oldies on TPF, sadly many of them are no longer on here. I've moved past posting for ego stoking, so the only thing I really post on FB are family pictures anymore. Haven't done much on here of late as other things have tugged me in different directions. Sadly the level of critique on TPF has waned, I'd hoped that the C&C Gallery might draw more interest, but that's a subject for another thread.


Most of my portraits are family and friends.  I post those on FB and not on my Flickr page.  I have a few FB friends that take nature photos and it is interesting to see their photos.  

The C&C that was on this forum was very helpful.  When I first joined I knew nothing about photography and learned just by reading the C&C.  What I would do is look at the photo posted and try to guess what the experts or seasoned photographers would point out before I scrolled to their posts.  That was also back when locked threads happened daily   It seems the seasoned portrait photographers are no longer on here.


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## smoke665 (Aug 31, 2022)

CherylL said:


> That was also back when locked threads happened daily  It seems the seasoned portrait photographers are no longer on here.



That and moderators earned their pay when tempers flared.😁

I still see some on here occasionally and I talk to some off forum. Seems most are starting to see business coming back post pandemic.


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## SquarePeg (Aug 31, 2022)

People move on from online forums for a lot of reason - they get bored, annoyed, busy, hurt feelings, change hobbies or focus, outgrow the advice being offered... some leave in a huff over something another member says or does, or get banned from the forum for their aggressive behavior.


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## mrca (Aug 31, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> Photography forum - Photography-forum. org, is shutting down Sept 1st, after 15 years. They cited a big drop in sponsorships, paid memberships, postings and increasing high cost of hosting as the reason. They went to a Face Book page and suprisingly saw a dramatic upswing in the activity by members many who hadn't been on in years. Sign of the times?????





smoke665 said:


> Photography forum - Photography-forum. org, is shutting down Sept 1st, after 15 years. They cited a big drop in sponsorships, paid memberships, postings and increasing high cost of hosting as the reason. They went to a Face Book page and suprisingly saw a dramatic upswing in the activity by members many who hadn't been on in years. Sign of the times?





smoke665 said:


> With all social media there's an ebb and flow, as circumstances and interests change. Added to your list, you need "a varied mix of image genre postings" to keep things interesting. We live in a "click and scroll" world where unless something piques our curiosity we quickly move on. Its sad, but a good spirited argument really draws out the comments.
> 
> Finally, I view forums as a "place of learning". Social media like FB is a place where people post to stoke thier ego. Likes, nice shot, and good job seem to be the majority of responses. IMO forums "should" be a place of learning where critical reviews provide another set of eyes to guide us. TPF was like that at one time, you didn't ask for critique unless you were thick skinned, but you learned in the process, over time it's become less so. Many of the knowledgeable photographers willing to help are gone, and a large section of the current members are either unwilling to spend thier time commenting, they're uncomfortable doing so, or don't feel qualified to do so. Photograpy-Forum fell somewhere in between,  there was a lot of clique stoking egos, and the occasional valid critique.


I am on a number of FB sites usually fairly narrow targets.   Several camera sites have been invaluable  to quickly get an answer why a 20 or 40 yr old camera is giving me fits.   I struggled with printing til I found one site that transformed a dreaded struggle to the point I don't bother to do a test print on a $7 piece of paper as now my prints match my monitor... in spite of those that say it can't.   After decades on these sites, I take the time to try to help because many years ago, an on line guy took the time with me and help transform my work.  Now, these days with youtube having 10 videos for just about any question you have...  8 from folks who don't have a clue about their new purchase or want to show you taking it out of the box?  What is that about?  But unlike 20 years ago, there are plenty of resources only a few clicks away.  Back in those days, Kelby was pretty much unchallenged as the photo instruction business grew, partially because pros were making less taking photos.  For me the FB sites that allow posting has some great images, but on sites dedicated to one camera, less than photos of the camera all the views already have.


CherylL said:


> Most of my portraits are family and friends.  I post those on FB and not on my Flickr page.  I have a few FB friends that take nature photos and it is interesting to see their photos.
> 
> The C&C that was on this forum was very helpful.  When I first joined I knew nothing about photography and learned just by reading the C&C.  What I would do is look at the photo posted and try to guess what the experts or seasoned photographers would point out before I scrolled to their posts.  That was also back when locked threads happened daily   It seems the seasoned portrait photographers are no longer on here.


  It seems the seasoned portrait photographers are no longer on here?   I am a professional portrait photographer  who like Smoke had my work taken to new levels by others.  It's why I'm here, to pay back for the instruction and encouragement I got decades ago on  similar sites and great photographers  that took the time to critique my work.   I have won and judged professional competitions and was appointed to head the mentor program for PPA in northern CA so have a clue about portrait photography and don't know what C&C is but would be glad to pass on my thoughts on images.  I promise my critiques would be constructive and gentle.   I well understand the courage it takes to put your images out there for critique.  I have had my work critiqued by folks that charge 50 grand for a wedding.  I can relate.   I believe getting solid critique is the best way to improve your work Because you don't know what you don't know.       Remember, critique is subjective and be true to your vision, critique is just suggestions, not rules.  I can't recommend highly enough joining a local club that critiques  members images every month.  You will start seeing that there are common problems with images over and over and next time you look through the viewfinder, you will spot and eliminate them.  I don't look around this site much and just noticed the People area.   Just posted a  critique for a great ambient light portrait Smoke did.  I'll try to remember to look at that area and try to contribute.  And remember, photography should be fun.


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## RAZKY (Sep 1, 2022)

Criticism & critique is fine for those who cannot think for themselves and just want to copy others. You see it all the time in the various forums,


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## cgw (Sep 1, 2022)

SquarePeg said:


> People move on from online forums for a lot of reason - they get bored, annoyed, busy, hurt feelings, change hobbies or focus, outgrow the advice being offered... some leave in a huff over something another member says or does, or get banned from the forum for their aggressive behavior.


Yup. I get particularly weary of posters who tout their "qualifications" in nearly every post/response here. Tiresome and needy.


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## RAZKY (Sep 1, 2022)

It is indeed a joke when folks post their digital images and pretend they mean something.


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## mrca (Sep 1, 2022)

cgw said:


> Yup. I get particularly weary of posters who tout their "qualifications" in nearly every post/response here. Tiresome and needy.


 Here is an another example on display why forums are dying.  They  become a haven for unhappy people who think they can call others names  while hiding behind their keyboards.  This  is the second time this guy cgw  made nasty comments to me. Nasty, read them.  People get tired of folks like this and leave including others not attacked who are put off by the tone.  The last time, he was snarky and said I don't post photos  implying my work sucks. A direct, personal attack.  I posted several and not only he didn't comment or show his work, he ran and hid under his desk.  Silence.  Here. a lady said there were no seasoned portrait photographers to lend critique.  I explained I was  "seasoned" and offered to help.  In response, this guy either can't read or is just a nasty person and again made a nasty comment.   The op wondered why forums are dying, this is one of the reasons.   If moderators don't stop them, it drives people away.  
But today, 2 of these  Walters show up and Razky chimes in with critique is for people who can't think for themselves and want to just copy.   Another insult and is misleading for newbys.  Here's a clue, pal, folks that learn the principles can then really create drawing on the techniques in their own way.  Some guy named Picasso spent years mastering classical painting before he created his amazing work.  You may have heard of him.  And digital images don't mean something?  Probably true for these 2 guys,  especially if you don't master the craft, but there is plenty of work out there that is powerful and meaningful.  I find these snarky morons tedious.   There are people here  who will be  reluctant to post their images for critique because they fear nasty comments.  Again, another reason  folks go elsewhere.  I learned of the people section from this thread and posted a critique of a great photo by Smoke.  It had POSITIVE, CONSTRUCTIVE  suggestions, not ridicule or snark.    And I'll bet these keyboard cowboys would NEVER say such snark to someone's face.   Just like the punks sucker punching little old ladies in our cities, they are miserable cowards and sadly, they know it and it only makes them more miserable in their loser lives.   I respond to these snarky comments because I stopped giving a pass to people who attack me or  others long ago and as usual, I expect they will cower under their desks.


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## smoke665 (Sep 1, 2022)

SquarePeg said:


> People move on from online forums for a lot of reason - they get bored, annoyed, busy, hurt feelings, change hobbies or focus, outgrow the advice being offered... some leave in a huff over something another member says or does, or get banned from the forum for their aggressive behavior.



Wow. Your list is getting tested today. 😁


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## dolina (Sep 1, 2022)

smoke665 said:


> Wow. Your list is getting tested today. 😁


smoke665,

Believe me TPF is a very very pleasant place. Owner, admin & mods are very polite and user-oriented.

I would not be surprised if it will be get more new users in the future as they aren't needlessly hostile.

One AU photo forum I started visiting again at the same time as TPF was ultra unpleasant so I decided to

- delete my saved password
- delete my bookmark
- delete my cookie

so I do not have to be reminded of them.

But before I did I looked over their user/membership activity stats that was publicly displayed and their all time high activity less than a decade ago is a fraction of what it is today.

Sure fire way for a forum to die if the "elders" are unpleasant to the newbies and drive them away towards Facebook.


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## RAZKY (Sep 1, 2022)

mrca said:


> Here is an another example on display why forums are dying.  They  become a haven for unhappy people who think they can call others names  while hiding behind their keyboards.  This  is the second time this guy cgw  made nasty comments to me. Nasty, read them.  People get tired of folks like this and leave including others not attacked who are put off by the tone.  The last time, he was snarky and said I don't post photos  implying my work sucks. A direct, personal attack.  I posted several and not only he didn't comment or show his work, he ran and hid under his desk.  Silence.  Here. a lady said there were no seasoned portrait photographers to lend critique.  I explained I was  "seasoned" and offered to help.  In response, this guy either can't read or is just a nasty person and again made a nasty comment.   The op wondered why forums are dying, this is one of the reasons.   If moderators don't stop them, it drives people away.
> But today, 2 of these  Walters show up and Razky chimes in with critique is for people who can't think for themselves and want to just copy.   Another insult and is misleading for newbys.  Here's a clue, pal, folks that learn the principles can then really create drawing on the techniques in their own way.  Some guy named Picasso spent years mastering classical painting before he created his amazing work.  You may have heard of him.  And digital images don't mean something?  Probably true for these 2 guys,  especially if you don't master the craft, but there is plenty of work out there that is powerful and meaningful.  I find these snarky morons tedious.   There are people here  who will be  reluctant to post their images for critique because they fear nasty comments.  Again, another reason  folks go elsewhere.  I learned of the people section from this thread and posted a critique of a great photo by Smoke.  It had POSITIVE, CONSTRUCTIVE  suggestions, not ridicule or snark.    And I'll bet these keyboard cowboys would NEVER say such snark to someone's face.   Just like the punks sucker punching little old ladies in our cities, they are miserable cowards and sadly, they know it and it only makes them more miserable in their loser lives.   I respond to these snarky comments because I stopped giving a pass to people who attack me or  others long ago and as usual, I expect they will cower under their desks.


So my opinion differs from yours - I would apologize if I was sorry. At least, unlike you, I have attacked no one, nor do I desire to do so.


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## mrca (Sep 1, 2022)

RAZKY said:


> So my opinion differs from yours - I would apologize if I was sorry. At least, unlike you, I have attacked no one, nor do I desire to do so.


It isn't differing from my opinion that's the issue, it's slandering people who want critique, just like the poster above.   You insulted anyone who wants to learn from their work.  And I attacked no one,  I RESPONDED to attacks and insults addressed to me and others  that were made for no reason.   Telling everyone   here their work is meaningless isn't an attack or insulting? Saying people are fools who want critique isn't an attack or insulting?   If you didn't mean it as such, fine, but read your post and put yourself in the shoes of someone asking for critique or who works to make meaningful work and ask yourself if you feel insulted or attacked.


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## RAZKY (Sep 1, 2022)

mrca said:


> It isn't differing from my opinion that's the issue, it's slandering people who want critique, just like the poster above.   You insulted anyone who wants to learn from their work.  And I attacked no one,  I RESPONDED to attacks and insults addressed to me and others  that were made for no reason.   Telling everyone   here their work is meaningless isn't an attack or insulting? Saying people are fools who want critique isn't an attack or insulting?   If you didn't mean it as such, fine, but read your post and put yourself in the shoes of someone asking for critique or who works to make meaningful work and ask yourself if you feel insulted or attacked.


Go troll someone else!!


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## mrca (Sep 1, 2022)

RAZKY said:


> Go troll someone else!!


Ever notice how some accuse others of what they are doing?  You know, like insulting people a couple times then when called out accuse others of trolling?   The hypocrisy of some folks knows no bounds.


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## mrca (Sep 1, 2022)

mrca said:


> Ever notice how some accuse others of what they are doing?  You know, like insulting people a couple times then when called out accuse others of trolling?   The hypocrisy of some folks knows no bounds.


I just remembered, the last time cgw went snark someone chimed in with him...you.  I'm wondering if you are in fact the same  jerk?   Cgw hasn't responded so is either hiding under his desk again or you are the same person.   In hiding til throwing  the next hand grenade.   Here's the definition of troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.  Look like your 2 posts and his insults? If the shoe fits, wear it.


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## CherylL (Sep 1, 2022)

mrca said:


> I can't recommend highly enough joining a local club that critiques members images every month.


There is a large club the next city over.  A young friend went to one meeting.  He was laughed at because of his age and his entry level camera.  At the time I thought about going, but changed my mind since I had an entry level camera.

The young friend found a local portrait photographer that mentored him and he was her 2nd shooter for weddings.  Fast forward 8 years and that young friend is now working on a journalism master's degree.  He was one numerous awards.  

My local FB photography group has meetups and the seasoned help the newbies.  All levels are welcome.  At the last meetup I shadowed 2 professionals and listened to how they directed the models.  A very good experience!  There was a discussion on the FB page about clubs and competitions.  Most were not interested in competions and the general consensus was that the FB group had no egos.  Most that come to the meetups I would estimate are in their 20s and 30s.  A few more older.  Sometimes I think I am the oldest at the meetups.  The great thing about the group is that age and experience doesn't matter.


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## mrca (Sep 1, 2022)

CherylL said:


> There is a large club the next city over.  A young friend went to one meeting.  He was laughed at because of his age and his entry level camera.  At the time I thought about going, but changed my mind since I had an entry level camera.
> 
> The young friend found a local portrait photographer that mentored him and he was her 2nd shooter for weddings.  Fast forward 8 years and that young friend is now working on a journalism master's degree.  He was one numerous awards.
> 
> My local FB photography group has meetups and the seasoned help the newbies.  All levels are welcome.  At the last meetup I shadowed 2 professionals and listened to how they directed the models.  A very good experience!  There was a discussion on the FB page about clubs and competitions.  Most were not interested in competions and the general consensus was that the FB group had no egos.  Most that come to the meetups I would estimate are in their 20s and 30s.  A few more older.  Sometimes I think I am the oldest at the meetups.  The great thing about the group is that age and experience doesn't matter.


My experience has been that most meetups and photo groups are a sea of gray hair. Old folks.  Younger folks are eagerly welcomed.  In CA I shot with folks 20-30 years younger, we shared a passion for mastering the craft.  There may be a few aholes in any  group but of the numerous groups I have been in over the decades, they were rare and often shunned by the rest of the group.  It's not about the gear, there are plenty of folks making stellar images with less than top of the line or "professional" gear.  I always tell this story, as we old folks tend to do, I went to a professional competition and met the visiting judge an on field photographer for a pro football team.  When he realized I was part time, he  gave me the cold shoulder and walked off.  He showed his images taken with a $10,000 lens and $5000 camera.  Typical football shots.  When my image came up in judging he came out of his chair to take a closer look, and said it was fantastic and he had to know who and how it was taken.   When winners were announced,  they called out the speakers awarded photo he picked and when they called my name, I stood up and his jaw hit the floor.  I made sure to say it was taken with an entry level d200 and one of the 10 all time worst lenses of all time from nikon per Rockwell.   You can make stunning images with even a cell phone.  The reason I post here is to encourage folks to master the craft.  If someone is so rude as to mock your gear or age, realize they are jerks and ignore them.   We have trolls like that here, keep striving to learn and improve in spite of them.  I think in most groups you will find some gear collectors who are not photographers.  They only want to talk about gear and never show photos except of their gear.   They might scoff at less high tech gear, it's all they know.   But there are folks in most groups for whom the image is the goal and you should be able to learn from them.   Many of us older folks owe the folks who took the time for us and want to pass on that knowledge and encouragement.   I am a firm believer in you don't know what you don't know and although I hate getting up early, drag my butt out of bed on a saturday morning to judge local competitions to help the folks here.   Sounds like you are interested in learning and folks here are willing to help.   Age and experience shouldn't matter in those groups, they are for fun and learning and sharing the passion for photography.


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## snowbear (Sep 1, 2022)

Let's keep it civil, everyone, or the thread gets locked, and offenders risk timeouts.  If someone has an issue with another member, send the mods/admins a PM - don't air it in public.


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