# When to give up



## Teebs (Oct 30, 2014)

Not as crazy as you think it sounds. I won't give up on photography because I love it dearly and it runs in my veins! However recently I had a friend of a friend contact me the night before her wedding with a cry for help. Now before I get into any of it I will just start with I *hate *wedding photography. I don't find the thrill in it that others may. And currently I am moving at half the speed I should be thanks to torn ligaments in my knee. So the idea of trying to be everywhere to get _that one perfect shot _gives me heartburn even now. 

*So the following is a bit long but...*

So onto this bride. I had RSVP'd to be a guest at this wedding so I was going to be there. The night before the bride contacts me and lets me know that her current 'photographer' does not have the right stuff to shoot her ceremony. I had done our mutual friends wedding the year before so she was familiar with my work and apparently figured I'd jump at the opportunity. I really wish I'd said no. 

What should have been a simple shoot was a nightmare for both me and the person I was having help me as the second shooter. I knew there was just no way for me to get around the room in time so I pleaded with a fellow photographer to assist. He was happy to oblige. Man did I get as lucky as the bride was that I'd said Ok.

Since I was going to be there anyway I carpooled with one of the bridesmaids. I wish I had not. The other person who the bride was supposed to have shoot everything but the ceremony never showed up to do the pre-wedding session. So I did that as well. And the ceremony. Then the after ceremony group photos (which I won't even begin to tell you about because that was a horror story all it's own). And last but not least the reception. All of it. Every bit of the wedding. Thanks to the rush of things we had never agreed on a set amount for the wedding and since I have not established myself I would never charge what an established photographer would so I don't even have a specific number that I can say 'this is what you need to pay.' 

So the person who went totally wrong was myself. No contracts. No pre-arrangement. Just "Hey shoot this." Naturally I am not going to spend every available moment working through the images I took to provide her with beautiful photos when the subject of payment came up as "Well tell me what hours you put in and we'll see how much it'll be." I have other clients who have paid up front and will receive their items in a timely beautifully mastered fashion. However I get messages from the bride "Where is this SPECIFIC PHOTO." In the end I uploaded a large chunk of images into a special gallery with watermarks splashed through them for her viewing pleasure. She was not happy because again she wanted every specific photo accounted for. 

Are you still with me? I know I tell a long story. At this point I have the idea to simply burn her a disk of JPGs, hand her the prints I printed for preview purposes, and call it done. Pay or not I am pretty much ready to forget this disaster ever happened. But in the back of my mind I know that it isn't the solution so I guess I just need some fresh eyes when it comes to the disaster I unwittingly walked into.


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## tirediron (Oct 30, 2014)

First of all:  Is sitting down with the bride *and* groom to discuss the whole situation and coming to a reasonable arrangement even a remote possibility?   If not, I would probably just burn all the images that you consider acceptable on to a disk, hand it to her, and tell her that's all there is, and walk away.  I suspect trying to get payment out of the deal would just add a whole new layer of pain, and if she hasn't paid you anything, she has no real cause for complaint.


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## Teebs (Oct 30, 2014)

Sadly there would be no way to include the groom in any of this (his response to everything would be to blow it off). Not to mention schedule wise I know they'd make every attempt to dodge me. I do agree--no payment, no cause for complaints. This was one of my more expensive lessons to learn in the end.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2014)

You got managed here.
You have no obligation because there is no contract.
I would give them nothing until they sit down and agree to terms.
The terms don't have to be onerous for either side but you have to have some control otherwise this will go on and on.


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## MichaelHenson (Oct 31, 2014)

Wow...This sounds incredibly like my experience with some friends for their engagement shoot. They're young and short of funds so I agreed to do their engagement portraits at no cost. They started pestering me for the photos within less than 24 hours from the end of the shoot and proceeded to get ignorant and rude asking for ALL THE PHOTOS so they could pick the ones they like. I consistently refused to provide ALL THE PHOTOS because there are just some that I don't want "out there." I ended up providing them 60 photos that I'm proud of and they still threw a fit wanting ALL the photos shot at the session...It was quite the learning experience for me as well. Sorry to hear that you had a similar experience!


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## ronlane (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm with Lew on this. Don't give them anything until you sit down and work out an acceptable deal for both of you. If they haven't paid for anything then they don't have a leg to stand on. (Note: I'm no lawyer and I don't play one on TV)


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2014)

Plus, I would start documenting everything, including every attempt to get them to sit down.
Send them a statement about the history, the timeline and how you want to proceed now (and BCC yourself)
They're being unreasonable and, while they might say that you and they have a verbal contract to shoot, there is no agreement on delivery or cost.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Lew and Ron on this one.  Their recommendations would be sound (and the same course I would recommend) IF the OP was an established or trying to become established working wedding photographer, but since he simply offered to 'pinch-hit' at the last moment, has no supporting paperwork, was planning on being at the event anyway, and no real economic stake in the wedding, my opinion is that while he might well be able to make a case for payment, the effort required would NOT be worth the reward.


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## ronlane (Oct 31, 2014)

John, I understand what you are saying but she should realize that the OP didn't HAVE to take the job, so she shouldn't be a itch with a capital B about it. The OP did them a favor and she is in no position to demand anything. This is more about principle to me than about the money. I could just as easily delete the photos or keep them to myself as to have to put up with someone like that.

Actually this is a perfect reason as to why I won't do a wedding.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2014)

You're 100% right Ron... it is all about principle.  I guess what it boils down to is, I'm lazy.  I think there's wayyyyy too much work involved here, as well as the chance of being at the wrong-end of a smear campaign because the bride, while totally in the wrong (at least so far as we know,  based on the OP) will still feel like she's the victim and want everyone to know it.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 31, 2014)

The payment isn't the issue for me.
The issue is really what the OP will deliver and how and when so that the B & G know when they must shut up and quit.
Without an understanding, the B&G can keep on asking and nagging and, if he doesn't deliver, start bad mouthing him.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> The payment isn't the issue for me.
> The issue is really what the OP will deliver and how and when so that the B & G know when they must shut up and quit.
> Without an understanding, the B&G can keep on asking and nagging and, if he doesn't deliver, start bad mouthing him.


Agree totally Lew, which is why I suggested he provide a disc of all of the images with which he is happy, delete everything else, and tell the couple, "That's all there is, there ain't no more!"


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## astroNikon (Oct 31, 2014)

Considering that they are friends of friends I would think at least hashing out a "end of game" agreement of some sorts would work.  He's too close the the friends network to leave it in a lurch.  A "breakeven" end game of some sorts would be preferred IMHO.


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## ronlane (Oct 31, 2014)

The easy thing vs the right thing vs what each of us would do.

I think the consensus would be to deliver the photos WITH some sort of agreement that this is all they get and be done with it.

Now, I'm out of the discussion but am really interested in hearing how things end up with the OP.


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## Designer (Oct 31, 2014)

I think we can all claim 20/20 hindsight, but the night before?  Seriously?  

And to the OP; WHY ON EARTH did you assume the role of "professional wedding photographer"?  

And to the supposed original photographer; why don't you just rent some equipment?  Or more to the point; why didn't OP make that suggestion?

Whoo-eee!  What a mess.  Sometimes the best thing to do in a mess is simply walk away.

"Here, take my amateur snapshots of your wedding, and do with them what you will. No charge of course."  

Hindsight is 20/20.


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## Nevermore1 (Oct 31, 2014)

Sounds to me like the original photographer may have quit at the last minute due to the brides demands.  I can understand maybe not having one piece of equipment for a specialized shot but don't understand not having the equipment to do a basic wedding if you are a professional and have done weddings in the past.

As for what to do about the pictures, I don't think I can give much better advice than what's already been given.  If they refuse to sit and discuss terms I would give them a few photos and explain that is all you have since you were a guest at the wedding and not the photographer since you are not being paid to do it/there isn't a contract with terms.


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## gsgary (Oct 31, 2014)

You just learned a good lesson never work for friends


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## Teebs (Oct 31, 2014)

I do appreciate everyone's feedback. No matter what part of this is on me for even accepting the task without a full agreement in place before hand. I also appreciate some of the ideas you all have as far as how to handle it. I will make another attempt to sit down with the bride and groom before I just give them what I have and be done with it. I had a guest over my shoulder with his phone 90% of the time so if they are desperate enough they can contact him for whatever he was doing.


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## Derrel (Oct 31, 2014)

The_Traveler said:
			
		

> You got managed here.
> You have no obligation because there is no contract.
> I would give them nothing until they sit down and agree to terms.
> The terms don't have to be onerous for either side but you have to have some control otherwise this will go on and on.



I disagree with only one word here. He wrote "managed". I submit that the right word is "*jobbed*".

You've got a tiger by the tail here: LET GO OF THE TAIL.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 31, 2014)

Trying dodging the B&G as much as they are trying to dodge you 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## theraven871 (Nov 4, 2014)

Every paid photographer has to learn some things the hard way.
We've all paid (in one way or another) to learn the craft of photography.
In this circumstance, you paid with your time.   That time taught you a very valuable lesson.

You should comfort yourself with the thought that you won't make this mistake twice.


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## JustJazzie (Nov 4, 2014)

You won't hear and good (or bad) advice from me, but I'm very curious to head how this all ends up! Good luck with it all.


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## Gary A. (Nov 4, 2014)

I don't think there is anything you can do salvage the situation. As this is a friend of a friend, all your mutual contacts will hear her side of the story. That may be where the greatest damage will be afflicted.

What is your primary concern ... money (getting paid) or your reputation? The bride seems very unreasonable so your considerations are of little value to her.

Remember that you are holding all the cards ... all of them. You have the images, you don't have a contract and there hasn't been any full or partial payments. You need to play this from a position of strength. Dude, have some fun, no matter card she may play, you can trump her because you have the images.

If your concerns are for your reputation only, then start and continue all discussions in email form. That way you can post the emails to your mutual contacts.

If your concerns are only about money ... you have what she wants. You make everything your way or the highway, period. What's she's gonna do? You can demand any price ... what is she gonna do? I'd have a chat with the photog that blew her off just to see why they didn't show up. I bet they walked away from the gig and she lied to you from the very beginning in order get you there.

When all discussions are concluded ... no matter what the outcome of those discussions, I would give them everything as a wedding gift and its done, fini.


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 4, 2014)

As Hardy would say to Laurel, this is a fine mess... Taking on the responsibility of photographing their wedding seems to have put you in the position of at least being obligated to provide them with photos (not necessarily original Raw images, not necessarily every single photo you took) but to at least do what you agreed to do - photograph their wedding and provide photos.

Maybe ask why she wants all the pictures, what is it that she's particularly looking for? See if you have a photo of whatever/whoever, give her a copy if possible or tell her if you don't have a picture of whosiewhatsis (and let her contact the guy with the cellphone! lol jk don't suggest that! if she wants something specific she can ask around and see if her friends have a picture of whatever).

I'd follow thru on this the best you can, send an email being clear on what you'll provide and that's it. If need be point out that did the best you could under the circumstances, that it being the night before you didn't have a list of specific photos she wanted, no contract with any terms re: payment, etc. You could mention that photographers usually have arrangements with fellow photographers to cover for them and her photographer could have done that instead of just not showing up. And he didn't have the equipment needed for something specific she wanted?? that's not your responsibility, the photographer could have rented equipment. Not to give excuses but it might help to give some explanation.

If the friendship is with the groom and you want to stay friends it might be best to give them photos, be done with it, chalk it up to lesson learned and move on.


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