# The "wealthy" photographer thread.



## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

Ryan Brenizer shoots over 70 weddings per year.  I'd guess he charges at least $4,000 for each event.  To be conservative, let's say he averages $3,000 which I think is low.  Add to that the "one-time" fees he earns from wedding (or other) portraits, corporate events and the like.

So, he's probably earning easily $300k per year, before costs, and if his costs are 50% of his fees he will walk away with $150k net.

Is that considered a "wealthy" photographer?  And don't quote me the name Peter Lik because he's in a different league altogether.  I know he's made kazillions of dollars from selling his images, but aspiring to be the next Peter Lik, while not a bad idea, it is, I think, beyond most of us.


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## fjrabon (Jul 11, 2012)

From what I've heard, the people who make the big dollars make a lot, if not most of it from workshops they do.  

Also, not sure where you got the 300K mark, as using the numbers you provided, 70 X 3,000 = 210,000 before costs, which is substantially different from 300K (perhaps you're counting other income streams, but you didn't mention them).


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## Big Mike (Jul 11, 2012)

Without knowing more about it...a few things come to mind.

Most wedding/portrait photographers are small business, usually just themselves and maybe one or two other people.  But to shoot 70 weddings a year, you'd probably have to have a staff of a few people.  And the estimate of costs being 50% is pretty arbitrary.  It could be much higher, or it could even be lower.  

But yes, I'd say that if their personal income is $150k, they are doing pretty well for themselves...although the amount of work might also be well above average.

I was shooting a wedding recently, with a very good photographer friend of mine.  He's being doing it for 13 years and charges $3900 basic or $6500 premium.  At one point, he was shooting up to 50 weddings a year, plus his wife worked a full time job.  He said they had more money than they knew what to do with, but it didn't make them happy.  He said they just bought stuff for the sake of buying it, and there wasn't the same excitement you have when you have to save up for something....and so on.  
He scaled back his weddings to 20 a year and she only works part time (plus they now have a couple kids)...and he said they are much happier now than when he was a 'wealthy' photographer.  

I felt a little resentful, as I'm working 3 jobs and swimming in debt, but I know that he was completely honest about it.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Also, not sure where you got the 300K mark, as using the numbers you provided, 70 X 3,000 = 210,000 before costs, which is substantially different from 300K (perhaps you're counting other income streams, but you didn't mention them).




Umm...Did you see the sentence where I wrote:  _*Add to that the "one-time" fees he earns from wedding (or other) portraits, corporate events and the like.*_?


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> And the estimate of costs being 50% is pretty arbitrary.  It could be much higher, or it could even be lower.



Exactly.  That was for illustration purposes only.  



Big Mike said:


> I was shooting a wedding recently, with a very good photographer friend of mine.  He's being doing it for 13 years and charges $3900 basic or $6500 premium.



Again, exactly.  My guesstimate on Brenizer was a low-ball figure.  I'd guess he wouldn't even start below $4,000 for a wedding or it's not worth his time, especially in NYC.  I was being conservative.


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## KmH (Jul 11, 2012)

His costs are likely 80%+ of his total revenue.

Few legal retail businesses have a 50% profit margin. Most retail photography businesses struggle to attain, and maintain, a 20% profit margin. 

$4000 for a wedding or corporate event is not expensive. Some of the top wedding/event photographers in the US charge well north of $10,000 per event.

In some markets, like NYC, top wedding photographers get $50,000+ to shoot weddings.

Then there are the top shelf destination wedding photographers who are also in that $50,000 and up price range.


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## Big Mike (Jul 11, 2012)

> From what I've heard, the people who make the big dollars make a lot, if not most of it from workshops they do.


That is indeed a direction that many of the 'wealthy' and well-known photographers take.  It's not hard to figure out that you can make a lot more money charging a room full of people to hear you speak, than to work for one client for a day.  I'm often quite skeptical when I see these 'Rock Star' photographers with their seminars and tours etc.  If they were that good at photography, wouldn't they be so in-demand that they wouldn't have time for a tour?  I think that most of them are more 'motivational speaker' first and photographer second.  I don't begrudge them that...it's a free market economy and they figured out a way to make lots of money...but they would have a hard time getting any of my hard earned money.  

It's like they say about fishing lures...they are not designed to lure fish (fish don't have any money)...they are designed to lure fishermen to buy them.  So it's easy to see that in photography, the biggest revenue stream is other photographers (or wanna-be photographers).  
Gary Fong stuck a plastic tub on a flash and got rich :roll:.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

KmH said:


> $4000 for a wedding or corporate event is not expensive. Some of the top wedding/event photographers in the US charge well north of $10,000 per event.
> 
> In some markets, like NYC, top wedding photographers get $50,000+ to shoot weddings.
> 
> Then there are the top shelf destination wedding photographers who are also in that $50,000 and up price range.




Then my numbers are very VERY conservative.  I'd guess for every photographer with Ryan Brenizer's skills, there are 100's in line behind him with a fraction of his skills...making much less money.


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## fjrabon (Jul 11, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > $4000 for a wedding or corporate event is not expensive. Some of the top wedding/event photographers in the US charge well north of $10,000 per event.
> ...



Well, they aren't particularly conservative with you assuming a 50% profit margin.  If he's shooting 70 weddings a year, I guarantee you he has a relatively large full time staff working for him that he pays relatively well.  It's just impossible to get that many weddings, with that high of quality, done without it, especially given the amount of post work Brenzier does (which is what he's 'famous' for).

I think the point here is that this just seems like such a wild guessing game with completely fabricated numbers that could, and likely are, wildly inaccurate, that what's the point?  

You'd have probably been better off just asking "what do the highest paid photographers make?"


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> jwbryson1 said:
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> > KmH said:
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I'm a numbers guy.  I like to know the details.


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## fjrabon (Jul 11, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> fjrabon said:
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> > jwbryson1 said:
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The problem though is that we don't know ANY of the relevant details.  We don't know how much he charges, we don't know how much he makes in other income, we don't know what his expenses are.  

For someone with a mid sized small business, how efficiently you manage that business has much more to do with your take home profit than your total revenue does.  And we don't even know total revenue.

We're like 4 steps away from having even vague notion of what he makes.


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## unpopular (Jul 11, 2012)

One reason why photographers like this are so successful is their tolerance for rich people at weddings.


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## fjrabon (Jul 11, 2012)

unpopular said:


> One reason why photographers like this are so successful is their tolerance for rich people at weddings.



I remember a Zack Arias quote of "Well, one of the nicest side benefits to going medium format was that I no longer had to hear the rich guy talk about the D4 he just bought his wife, my camera might cost as much as a BMW, but at least I don't have to listen to that guy any more."


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## spacefuzz (Jul 11, 2012)

figure out what car he drives and guestimate from there. 

Now me, I will try the peter lik route.....


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## slackercruster (Jul 11, 2012)

OP...yes $300K a year is wealthy and successful to me. 

Mary Ellen Mark gets $3,000 per print and $15,000 per 20 x 24 polaroid. If she is not a millionaire...I wanna know ow why!

(Image removed - violates forum policy)

She sells her books for $500 a pop at her store as well!

(Image removed - violates forum policy)


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## spacefuzz (Jul 11, 2012)

slackercruster said:


> Mary Ellen Mark gets $3,000 per print and $15,000 per 20 x 24 polaroid.



and her work does nothing for me.  Art is so funny like that.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm looking at my finances and wondering if I could replace my current income as a photographer.  That's why I like the details.   I think that would be a tough gap to bridge.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 11, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> The problem though is that we don't know ANY of the relevant details.  We don't know how much he charges, we don't know how much he makes in other income, we don't know what his expenses are.




He charges $5,500 for a wedding.  I'm sure it goes up from there.


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## unpopular (Jul 11, 2012)

spacefuzz said:


> slackercruster said:
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> > Mary Ellen Mark gets $3,000 per print and $15,000 per 20 x 24 polaroid.
> ...



An original Mary Ellen Mark would be seen as more as an investment thana keepsake, you're not buying the print, but rather her signature.


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## rexbobcat (Jul 11, 2012)

unpopular said:
			
		

> An original Mary Ellen Mark would be seen as more as an investment thana keepsake, you're not buying the print, but rather her signature.



I just checked out her website and holy hell she's photographed like 80% of notable celebrities from the past 50 years. I'd never even heard of her lol


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## KmH (Jul 11, 2012)

slackercruster said:


> (Image removed - violates forum policy)
> 
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> (Image removed - violates forum policy)


And likely US federal copyright law too.

_*Note*_*:*  slackcrusters post was not edited by a moderator.

Those wanting more information as to why virtually all photography forums have the same rules about posting someone else's copyrighted photos, see - Digital Millennium Copyright Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_*AND*_ - Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ann (Jul 11, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> unpopular said:
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I would suggest you start doing some research about all those photographers who have come before; you are standing on the shoulders of a lot of people who have worked very hard and didn't make a lot of money.

I know several very talented fine art photographers who paint houses to eat on a regular basis. Even Kim Weston was a carpenter for a long time before he could devote his time to his workshop and to his images, and he has a grandfather who is considered a master of our craft who ate his subject matter on a regular basis (think vegetables)


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## usayit (Jul 11, 2012)

* Assumption on Assumptions.... don't make for an interesting conversation over numbers
* $150k is NOTHING in NYC.  Heck.. its not that much to live in Northern NJ.
* 50% operating costs?  That's laughable estimation
* In NYC, I'm sure he chargers more than $5000 for a wedding shoot.

Car?  HAHAHAhaha...  Most people I see around with a nice house and a nice car reporting a normal job around here are "In dept to their eye-balls".


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 11, 2012)

I have a good friend that has been working decades shooting sports and corporate jobs, he is good, he is not amazing, but he makes between 150k-200k per year, he also works 7 days a week, spends all his time flying or driving between work, never turns a job down.  He has a great house, pool in the back, nice car, all the newest gear when it comes out.  He has a reputation of being a bit of a jerk with other photographers.

What he doesn't have...a life, no family, doesn't see a lot of his friends that work outside of photography.  I know that he's not the happiest guy in the world, so what's it all worth?

I don't own a house, I have a nice car, I keep my gear together until it doesn't work anymore, I have a reputation of being very good at what I do, I'm respected as a photographer and I am struggling all the time just to keep afloat long enough to find that "next" good paying job to pay the bills again.  What I do have is a great family, with three amazing kids and wife that "allows" me the opportunity to travel the world doing what I love.

I'll take my family life over no life any day.


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## Raian-san (Jul 11, 2012)

Wealthy Photographers are the one who already built up their portfolio...charge a lot more...and accept less weddings per year so they can enjoy their life like spending time families...travel and etc. If you're single, you can do 30-50 weddings a year just fine but do you really want to work that much? Later on I want to limit to 20-30 weddings a year or maybe a little less, open up a different type of business, and do weddings as a side/hobby job. I don't see or want myself to be 40+ years old, and still shooting a wedding.


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## ryanbrenizer (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey guys, this is Ryan. I haven't read all of the thread yet, so I don't know if it got wacky, but I'm happy to share some numbers.

1) I generally do about 65 average, last year I did 71.
2) My average is WELL above $3K -- as you can see on my site my starting price is $5.5K, which is before any albums or physical products. I don't hide starting prices. A few of these were discounted due to being short weekday elopements, but only around five or so.
3) I also do portraits, corporate work, etc. My base package doesn't include engagement shoots, and most of my wedding clients at least tack that on.
4) I have a full-time employee with benefits, she helps primarily with customer service, albums, design and such. I do all the shooting. I like to shoot and I don't like paperwork. I could do an associate program but that means less shooting and more paperwork.

So &#8230; yeah, I'm doing fine. But always remember that income as a business owner isn't the same as someone handing you a paycheck for the same amount. I have taxes and fees and fines I couldn't even begin to describe, especially since I choose to live close to my clients in Manhattan.  I feel very lucky to make a good living doing what I love and not having to worry about money from day to day, but I won't be buying a Gulfstream any time soon.


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## ryanbrenizer (Jul 11, 2012)

Also I don't own a car; I live in the heart of Manhattan and my favorite weddings are ones I can get to by subway.  In any case it's less of a headache to just rent a car whenever I need one, but it is one reason I focus on a very light set-up, only what I can carry.


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## fjrabon (Jul 11, 2012)

So that was kind of cool.  Even though we still have no idea how much Ryan makes   (not that it's any of our business)


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## ryanbrenizer (Jul 12, 2012)

Haha, I'm happy to be open, but the exact figure is for my accountant. ;-)

Raiain-san is quite true about supply and demand. I provide a lot of supply now because I'm young, single, and love to shoot. But what I'm primarily building now is not just portfolio, but a huge client base and recognition with vendors, venues, and planners in the area. This means that when I do finally decide to slow down the numbers can be as high as I want them. (In fact, my main worry isn't how to get clients at extremely high rates, but how to keep the sorts of clients who make me happy at those rates. I have no desire to shoot the next Kardashian wedding.)


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## usayit (Jul 12, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I have a good friend that has been working decades shooting sports and corporate jobs,
> 
> ....
> 
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He is lucky to have you as a friend.   Maybe its just me but I have noticed more and more people struggling over the whole work life balance issue.   More so up in the North East than when I was in the South.   Good for you.

If you do the final numbers $200k per year working 7 days a week isn't all that great.  Making a lot of assumptions (no time off etc.. 8 hour work day), it only comes out to about $68.50/hour.  IMO, not worth the personal sacrifice...  but everyone lives their own lives and makes their own decisions.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 12, 2012)

ryanbrenizer said:


> Hey guys, this is Ryan. I haven't read all of the thread yet, so I don't know if it got wacky, but I'm happy to share some numbers.
> 
> 1) I generally do about 65 average, last year I did 71.
> 2) My average is WELL above $3K -- as you can see on my site my starting price is $5.5K, which is before any albums or physical products. I don't hide starting prices. A few of these were discounted due to being short weekday elopements, but only around five or so.
> ...




This looks like a legit post!  Maybe I'm naive, but thanks for the post Ryan.  Very cool (if real...)


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## fjrabon (Jul 12, 2012)

Yeah, I was an attorney in my past life.  I had it fairly good for an attorney (I worked in house at a huge corporation, typically didn't work more than 50 hrs per week) and I left that to make less than half the money, because I just wasn't happy when I got home.  I spent all of my time off trying to unwind from work, which essentially meant that I was really only ever working or recovering from work.  At that point, what's the point of making all that money?  

That's part of why I'm being so strict on myself of not getting into aspects of photography that I don't enjoy just because I can make money.  I'm nowhere near the stage to do it anyway, but I have no desire whatsoever to get back to the point where I was, just in a different profession.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 12, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Yeah, I was an attorney in my past life.  I had it fairly good for an attorney (I worked in house at a huge corporation, typically didn't work more than 50 hrs per week) and I left that to make less than half the money, because I just wasn't happy when I got home.  I spent all of my time off trying to unwind from work, which essentially meant that I was really only ever working or recovering from work.  At that point, what's the point of making all that money?
> 
> That's part of why I'm being so strict on myself of not getting into aspects of photography that I don't enjoy just because I can make money.  I'm nowhere near the stage to do it anyway, but I have no desire whatsoever to get back to the point where I was, just in a different profession.




I struggle with this every day.  I have 2 young kids at home (ages 8 and 1) and I wish I had a profession that allowed me more time to spend with them.  It seems photographers who are highly successful work an awful lot of hours.


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## fjrabon (Jul 12, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> fjrabon said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I was an attorney in my past life.  I had it fairly good for an attorney (I worked in house at a huge corporation, typically didn't work more than 50 hrs per week) and I left that to make less than half the money, because I just wasn't happy when I got home.  I spent all of my time off trying to unwind from work, which essentially meant that I was really only ever working or recovering from work.  At that point, what's the point of making all that money?
> ...



Yeah, from what I've heard the problem is that it's possible to make a living in photography without working a TON of hours, but really the only way is to have built up a client base/reputation/portfolio that allows you to pick and choose more lucrative work, and the only way to really do that is to have already worked really hard for a while.


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## unpopular (Jul 12, 2012)

^^ I think that's just the problem with making lots of money. It takes work.

I'm not saying that like "lazy bastard" way. But rather that often times for most of us there are compromises, and you have to question if those compromises are worth the gains. If they are, great. But i'd rather spend time with my family than promote my social status.


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 12, 2012)

unpopular said:


> But i'd rather spend time with my family than promote my social status.



I don't disagree but I'd like to retire someday with some type of decent lifestyle.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 12, 2012)

Ryan signed up on TPF lol.  Who tipped you off Ryan?  Google analytic?  Seriously Jwbryson,  thousands of photographers including my self dream about doing it full time and make $$$$. More than likely wont happen and I'll be a weekend warrior forever which I don't mind.  Right now my goal is just keep improving my work.


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## unpopular (Jul 12, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> unpopular said:
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> > But i'd rather spend time with my family than promote my social status.
> ...



I don't know of too many people who retire, living a more frivolous lifestyle than when they were working. Maybe some will buy an RV or something, but it's nothing that they wouldn't have been able to do if they had the time to justify it. 

The rich die rich, the poor die poor. Perhaps there is some mobility before 65, but there isn't any after.


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## usayit (Jul 12, 2012)

Work and Life Balance.....  and social mobility.... 

There are several consistent reports over the years that the US ranks at the bottom (no coincidence so does education)  That hasn't been so apparent to me than over the past 10 years.  That's ok, my priorities have always been my family.... and I've grown accustomed to it.  

Speaking of RV for retirement....

That's exactly my plan. 

-  I did some shopping around and surprisingly affordable (relative to a house)
-  Modern day technology makes it possible without being totally disconnected from the world and family
-  Mobility makes it possible to easily relocate if when local events piss you off  
-  No property tax.  Its the one of the few taxes that 1) is not based on personal income or ability to pay 2) payments never stops 3) proportional to increase in municipality spending (corruption).  ==  You paying rent on property you've purchased.  
-  I'm pretty good with maintaining mechanicals.
-  Our family tends to spread out.  I predict the same with my kids.  I can easily relocate to stay in touch.

Probably going to go with a smaller but capable of full time living RV that hitches to a pickup truck via a 5th wheel hitch.   Vehicle maintenance will be easier and will double as local transport.

I still working on convincing the wife.  I'm used to living with little but it will be a huge adjustment on her part.


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## bhop (Jul 12, 2012)

spacefuzz said:


> slackercruster said:
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> > Mary Ellen Mark gets $3,000 per print and $15,000 per 20 x 24 polaroid.
> ...



I think her photos are pretty amazing.. art _is_ funny..


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## IByte (Jul 12, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:
			
		

> I struggle with this every day.  I have 2 young kids at home (ages 8 and 1) and I wish I had a profession that allowed me more time to spend with them.  It seems photographers who are highly successful work an awful lot of hours.



At home web designing :thumbsup:


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## unpopular (Jul 12, 2012)

usayit said:


> I still working on convincing the wife.  I'm used to living with little but it will be a huge adjustment on her part.



My grandparents live half the time in a 5th wheel, and like many also own a home - a very spacious home, in fact. My grandfather wants to sell the house and just live in the 5th Wheel, but right now he is in your same position. My advice, get the 5th Wheel, and work on convincing the wife to sell the house later.


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## usayit (Jul 13, 2012)

That's good advice...  I've taken her to a show room once to show her how nice it can be.  My initial attempt to prove the images of barebones RV living are a thing of the past.    Its probably one of those things that you never know till  you try it, at least part time.   She already knows that the notion of paying someone else's salary while I'm on a fixed income in the form of property tax is not an option.  I'd have a different attitude if I thought the taxes were going to goods and services (education) but I don't see that happening (low quality education and low teacher's pay with high city official compensation packages).  I figure once that time comes, my solution of moving into an RV will be the only feasible solution for her to consider.  

I've given up on the idea of retiring well... but I definitely can see retiring comfortably.  Ok.. reword that..  I can retire well but it would mean working to a very late age and having little to offer in terms of educational funding to my three kids' college (if they decide to).  That doesn't feel like a decision I can live with.


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## unpopular (Jul 13, 2012)

People seem to have this idea about retirement like it's easy street or something. While most people welcome the idea of retirement, I think there is this totally unrealistic belief about their lifestyle once they do, they dream of second homes in exotic locations. They dream of boats, RV's and not having to worry about money at all.

While I am sure some people can retire and live far "better" (well, with more stuff anyway) than they did, most people do not and are lucky if they can manage to maintain a similar quality of life to what they expected. After all, if you can't afford vacation homes and yachts now, what makes one think one could afford these things on a fixed income and savings that are needed to last until the grave?


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 13, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Ryan signed up on TPF lol.  Who tipped you off Ryan?  Google analytic?  Seriously Jwbryson,  thousands of photographers including my self dream about doing it full time and make $$$$. More than likely wont happen and I'll be a weekend warrior forever which I don't mind.  Right now my goal is just keep improving my work.




I thought you were a full-time pro who made a living at this?


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 13, 2012)

usayit said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a good friend that has been working decades shooting sports and corporate jobs,
> ...



I've never know him to turn down a job. Back in the day he wouldn't shoot anything for less than $500, didn't matter what it was, times have changed and now he may put several clients together for the same shoot, sporting event. He may be making $3000 off the shoot, but have 10 clients all kicking in money, what it does mean is that he is making good money, but he has to now shoot and edit more to cover the needs of all the clients. We have talked about it quite a bit, and the majority of photographers that I know, including myself, will try and piggy back a few clients off the same shoot, a primary client that is covering the travel costs and fee, and then anything else the other clients kick in is bonus money.  This really isn't a new concept, but now it's just more difficult finding  additional clients for the same event.

It still comes down to more work and time.


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