# Client won't allow image usage on site



## Cinka (Apr 23, 2014)

A few days ago, a groom emailed me stating that their photographer had backed out - no reason given - and they needed someone to shoot their wedding in 2 weeks. A trip I had planned fell through and it felt like it was meant to be. I agreed. When they told me their budget was less than half the price of my lowest package, I agreed because their location is GORGEOUS and I could use the images on my portfolio. I wanted to help them out and this seemed like a mutually beneficial arrangement. 

Today, I get an email saying that the bride doesn't want the images used on my site or for any publicity. I'll be honest, although doing them a favor was part of why I said yes, it's really about the location and the work I'd be able to show. Except, now I'm not getting paid my full rate AND I can't use them images? Needless to say, I'm kind of pissed. As you all know, having work to show is half the battle. 

Anyone have any brilliant ideas? Any work arounds? Magic words to make them change their minds? Unfortunately, my contract says they can opt out of image usage online, but in the 5 years I've been doing this, no one ever has. I sort of feel like they're taking advantage of my good nature.


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## SpikeyJohnson (Apr 23, 2014)

In your case I would back out, or explain why you took their job on for so cheap. Explain that you are getting paid half of what your lowest package is and the least they could do is allow you to use the images to promote your work (which they are asking for).  Explain without it then you receive no recognition from others and it can make it harder for others to find you.

Edit: IMHO it's the least they could do to make up the difference...


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## RAPyke (Apr 23, 2014)

Copyright is yours.

I have always operated on the understanding that I can _ALWAYS_ use any image for shows or as an example of my work... as long as you are not using the image to profit directly, I would say you have the right... I am not a lawyer however.


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## SpikeyJohnson (Apr 23, 2014)

Also one thing to note is that your contract generally applies to them paying normal price.  You have the right to refuse service as well.  Have they signed the contract? Have you already taken images?


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## pixmedic (Apr 23, 2014)

I would totally back out of this deal. 
unless they are paying some serious money, doing it on the cheap doesn't get you anything if you cant use the pictures in your portfolio. 
simply tell them that you cant shoot the wedding at the price  you agreed to if they are insisting on retaining the copyrights to the photos.


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## tirediron (Apr 23, 2014)

"Quoted rates are predicated on my use of the images for self-promotion. I will be happy to keep the images private, however there will be a 50% surcharge."

Edit:  Never mind, just re-read your OP.  WHY would you have a line like that in your contract.  I'm guessing you're SOL.


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## JerryVenz (Apr 23, 2014)

I would give them TWO OPTIONS: Non-usage agreement at FULL REGULAR PRICE.

Full usage agreement at HALF PRICE (or whatever you're comfortable with).

Note: either way you can still show prospective brides these images personally if they have this location in mind....not to mention wedding coordinators and the on site administrators of this location.


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## Big Mike (Apr 23, 2014)

If you have already agreed upon the price & conditions & signed the contract, then you probably don't want to back out because they might have the option to sue or at least give you a bad reputation.

If it hasn't come to that stage yet, then simply tell them the truth.  You don't normally work for such a low price and you agreed to it because it will give you portfolio material.  Leave the decision up to them, either pay full price and have the images be private, or get the discount and have images on your website.


On the other hand, my spidy senses are tingling with this one..
"A few days ago, a groom emailed me stating that their photographer had backed out - *no reason given*"

Maybe the other photographer sensed that this couple (or maybe just the bride) were going to be trouble.  You haven't even shot the wedding yet and they are causing you grief.  Just imagine the type of 'issues' they may come up with during the wedding and afterwards.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 23, 2014)

Cinka said:


> A few days ago, a groom emailed me stating that their photographer had backed out - no reason given - and they needed someone to shoot their wedding in 2 weeks. A trip I had planned fell through and it felt like it was meant to be. I agreed. When they told me their budget was less than half the price of my lowest package, I agreed because their location is GORGEOUS and I could use the images on my portfolio. I wanted to help them out and this seemed like a mutually beneficial arrangement.
> 
> Today, I get an email saying that the bride doesn't want the images used on my site or for any publicity. I'll be honest, although doing them a favor was part of why I said yes, it's really about the location and the work I'd be able to show. Except, now I'm not getting paid my full rate AND I can't use them images? Needless to say, I'm kind of pissed. As you all know, having work to show is half the battle.
> 
> Anyone have any brilliant ideas? Any work arounds? Magic words to make them change their minds? Unfortunately, my contract says they can opt out of image usage online, but in the 5 years I've been doing this, no one ever has. I sort of feel like they're taking advantage of my good nature.



My advice?  Try honesty.  Always seems to work best in all situations.  Write them back and explain that you agreed to do this at half your normal rate because you did intend on using those images in your advertising.  Offer them the option of paying your full rate or allowing you to use the images for advertising purposes, since that is the only reason they got the discounted rate in the first place.  Otherwise of course they can also feel free to cancel and book someone else.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 23, 2014)

Ok, you put something in your contract that lets them tell you what you can and can't do with the images at their discretion?  Yikes.  Well if the contract has been signed, that puts you in a really bad position I'm afraid.  About all you can do from here if that's the case is to do the job, honor your end of the contract, and then remove that line from any future contracts immediately and don't ever give another client that option without an additional fee.


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## Overread (Apr 23, 2014)

Way I see it you've two basic options:

1) Back out and walk away; this might be the hallmark of a very difficult bride and if they've already got one photographer gone chances are their negative impact might not be all that great (people who complain about everything* tend to end up with their negative opinion weighing less and less - esp if its matched against years of faithful and good work). 

2) Try to explain your position and negotiate. I would explain your situation and lay on the table the simple fact that they are getting you at 50% off and that whilst it was unsaid you were expecting that to include the usage of the photos for your portfolio and online display. You might try and sweeten the deal for them (yes sweeten it even further because from their perspective you're trying to take something away from them)  by offering something that won't be a major cost for you but is a freebie (something like a few prints or a canvus etc... - Facebook-Ready images would be another option for the modern market although I suspect not useful for this client). 



*unless they are paid to do it by being a critic


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## MartinCrabtree (Apr 23, 2014)

Please post up the results. Otherwise I have nothing,just curious how this turns out.


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## table1349 (Apr 23, 2014)

Shoot the thing for the money agreed on and consider it lesson learned.   If you were willing to change your contract to 1/2 price because of the location you should of removed the part about the client opting out.  You didn't.  It's on you.  Live and learn.


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## KmH (Apr 23, 2014)

RAPyke said:


> Copyright is yours.
> 
> I have always operated on the understanding that I can _ALWAYS_ use any image for shows or as an example of my work... as long as you are not using the image to profit directly, I would say you have the right... I am not a lawyer however.


That might work in Sweden, but the OP is in the USA.

Here in the US, a photographer that was paid to shoot the photos must have permission from people in the images to use them for self-promoting and self-publishing on a retail photography business web site.

While the B&G may sign a contract that has a model release clause in it allowing the photographer to use photos of the B&G, the B&G cannot give permission for anyone else in the wedding photos.


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## vintagesnaps (Apr 23, 2014)

If you signed a contract with them, then you already made the commitment to do this at a low rate. Where are you in the process? have you already told them you would do it?

If a contract would have included using photos for a portfolio or other publicity and they didn't agree with that, then they wouldn't have signed the contract and would have needed to find another photographer. Since the contract gives them the choice then if they opt out of your using their photos that's up to them. 

Unfortunately the best time to ask about usage for your portfolio would have been when you were first discussing and considering this if you particularly wanted to use photos from their wedding because of the location.


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## astroNikon (Apr 23, 2014)

Cinka said:


> my contract says they can opt out of image usage online, but in the 5 years I've been doing this, no one ever has. I sort of feel like they're taking advantage of my good nature.



It sounds like you need to have an additional contract for the CLIENT to allow YOU permission to use THEIR photos online.

I hate to say this.  You should not feel taken advantage.  your contract allows yourself to be taken advantage of.  Matter of fact, is there any constraints on it at all?  Can a past client opt out at any time in the future.  Or maybe the client assumes you won't use their photos online that they haven't already seen online and you can open yourself up to a lawsuit from a past client .. all dependent upon it's wording and stipulations ?

remove that line immediately.  
Make your contract Lock-tight as possible to protect YOU, YOURSELF and your business.
That is what a contract is for.
Contact a lawyer or those Photo Organizations for a properly worded contract.
It's cheap insurance, insurance to protect yourself.

and if it's not signed ... pull out for all of the above reasons .. it just sounds like it's going to start out bad and get worse.  I'm sure they've spent a ton on flowers, cake et all


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## astroNikon (Apr 23, 2014)

FYI, if they contacted you today and your haven't replied you could try ... "their decisions for no public usage requires a new contract with their stipulation clearly identified.  But their stipulation requires full price."
after all, you could argue that they are changing the contract stipulation therefore a new contract needs to be signed with their specifics.
It could be your way out if both parties already signed it, a "contract modification".
but contact a lawyer if you really want to try to get out of the contract and they don't want to.


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## Cinka (Apr 23, 2014)

Everyone, thank you so much for your responses. This has been REALLY helpful. 

To clarify, they have not signed a contract nor submitted a retainer. I assume they're getting all their wedding planner's questions out of the way before they commit - at this point, a week before the wedding, seems a bit overdone. 

As for the "opt out" portion of the contract, I'll be honest, I really thought we needed some kind of model release segment even for weddings. Again, I've never had it questioned and all my clients have been more than happy to let me use their images. These guys seem overly cautious, which is always concerning - especially since I'm bailing them out of a jam. A friend recommended that I create an "initials" section which basically says: "I'm going to use your images, if you agree initial here" etc. 

This whole thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I can take the money and run, but I'd rather have great images for my portfolio..._if I have to choose_. I will let them know that I need to modify the contract to stipulate some changes. This is definitely a "live and learn" experience and believe me, it won't happen again. 

Thanks to everyone for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate it. I will follow up and finish the story when I hear back from the client.


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## orljustin (Apr 24, 2014)

Cinka said:


> This whole thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I can take the money and run, but I'd rather have great images for my portfolio..._if I have to choose_. I will let them know that I need to modify the contract to stipulate some changes. This is definitely a "live and learn" experience and believe me, it won't happen again.



So, you offered a customer service that someone wants to utilize, and now that that has happened, you want to alter it because you didn't really mean it?  That doesn't seem like good service to me.  What's wrong with someone not wanting images of themselves used for promoting your business?


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 24, 2014)

I would first remove that line from the contract (assuming they haven't seen the actual contract yet)  and tell them that if they require that exclusion it will cost them the full going rate.


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## pixmedic (Apr 24, 2014)

If you already have a signed contract with the clients, then you need to honor that contract. If the contract details are not to your liking, that's your fault.  
Consider it a learning experience and just use their pictures in a physical portfolio or frames examples to show clients in person.


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## robbins.photo (Apr 24, 2014)

Ok well since you have no signed contract at this point my advice would be to walk away.  Just from what's been posted so far I'm seeing some serious red flags here.

The other photographer packed it in for a good reason I'm sure.  I'm just getting the impression that whatever you do end up getting out of this deal it won't be worth the hassle.

Just my humble opinion of course, take it for what you will.

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## ronlane (Apr 24, 2014)

With no contract, I think I would walk away too.

Yet another story to confirm why I have no desire to be a wedding photog. Robbin, pixmedic, somebody, we need a new thread about a wedding that went way smoother than expected or one about something that went wrong and the bride/groom were totally awesome.  We need balance here. lol.


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## pixmedic (Apr 24, 2014)

honestly, we dont have any real "_*horror*_" stories. 
our contracts spell out our rights, and the clients rights to photos pretty well, and plainly, and we go over every bit of it with the client _*in person*_ before letting them sign. 
I am not into making changes to that contract. we basically have two options as far as our image usage goes. 
#1 premium price and we agree not to use images for our advertising. 
#2 discounted price and client agrees to let us use images for our advertising. 
that's pretty much it. 
if one of those two options are not satisfactory to the client, then we don't do the job. 

Its a tough call, I understand. its basically a buyers market now. clients are a premium, and we hear "well, so-and-so photography will give us ALL the files on disk AND is less expensive", _*all the time*_. My wife is a little more inclined to do a small amount of haggling with people than I am, but i just don't have the patience for dealing with their "endless demands for half the price" crap. Which is difficult for me. Special needs child, medical bills from several specialists that he has to see on a semi-regular basis...turning down work, _*any*_ work, sucks, but sometimes you just have to turn down work to protect yourself and your interests. Lots of people want something for nothing. There are _*plenty*_ of photographers out there that will give it to them...they dont need me to do it. Plus...I wont. 

OP, if you already have a signed contract in place, honor it. If now, I would politely decline the job. 
Either way, i would get your contract changed ASAP.


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## hugh71158 (Apr 24, 2014)

Firstly, HI to everyone - I just joined!

Cinka, right now, as I see it, they have done nothing wrong. The price agreed is just that, agreed, and they have read your contract (as they should) and made a choice, one that you gave them. Do they even realize that this is an issue for you? 

My contract gives me the usage rights over my images. I am the copyright holder, UNLESS I decide to relinquish that right. I have to say, that clause in your contract needs to be removed, fast.  Why would you even need it in there? If we are being honest about this, it doesn't help sales. People expect images to appear online, and rarely is a contract read before signing, in my experience. Maybe it's my five pages that prevents that!  

I would tell them that you cut your price because they were in a bind, and the location was attractive as far as images are concerned. But without the images, it's a lot less attractive. I would NOT try to cancel, unless you have a bullet proof exit strategy. That could end up bad for you. 

Remember, they still want you to be committed, and do your best for them. They probably don't want to think that you might shoot their wedding halfheartedly, and your happiness and state of mind on the day is an important factor. Perhaps they will realize that. 

Good luck!

Hugh

AND THEN I SAW THERE WAS A SECOND PAGE OF POSTS..... Don't I feel foolish.


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## slackercruster (Apr 24, 2014)

SpikeyJohnson said:


> In your case I would back out, or explain why you took their job on for so cheap. Explain that you are getting paid half of what your lowest package is and the least they could do is allow you to use the images to promote your work (which they are asking for). Explain without it then you receive no recognition from others and it can make it harder for others to find you.
> 
> Edit: IMHO it's the least they could do to make up the difference...



Yes+


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## orljustin (Apr 24, 2014)

hugh71158 said:


> My contract gives me the usage rights over my images. I am the copyright holder, UNLESS I decide to relinquish that right. I have to say, that clause in your contract needs to be removed, fast.  Why would you even need it in there? If we are being honest about this, it doesn't help sales. People expect images to appear online, and rarely is a contract read before signing, in my experience. Maybe it's my five pages that prevents that!



Obfuscating the fact that you want to use images with their likeness to promote your business isn't good customer service, imo, and people don't necessarily expect images to appear online, unless they are the ones doing the posting.


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## Braineack (Apr 24, 2014)

I would get advice from Three Dog Grace's touring manager...


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## Tee (Apr 25, 2014)

hugh71158 said:


> Firstly, HI to everyone - I just joined!
> 
> Cinka, right now, as I see it, they have done nothing wrong. The price agreed is just that, agreed, and they have read your contract (as they should) and made a choice, one that you gave them. Do they even realize that this is an issue for you?
> 
> ...



This seems to be the most rational reply.


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## Intothedeep (Apr 25, 2014)

Cinka said:


> Everyone, thank you so much for your responses. This has been REALLY helpful.
> 
> To clarify, they have not signed a contract nor submitted a retainer. I assume they're getting all their wedding planner's questions out of the way before they commit - at this point, a week before the wedding, seems a bit overdone.
> 
> ...



You are better than me, if they do not pay full price or retainer and I have this issue I only give them the Edits WITH my Logo on it! If they want the CD and photos without the logo it is 150.00 more. 

If they did not sign then I assume you have not taken the photos. In my contract I specifically have :
Package Details: See Attachment A 

Then Attachment A puts in Details exactly number of prints ext. If my price is 600.00 regular for the wedding I would put 600.00 package includes: A,B,B,C,D but then at the bottom I would put *Discount Conditions - this is where you will put the web site and stuff.


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## tirediron (Apr 25, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> I would first remove that line from the contract (assuming they haven't seen the actual contract yet) and tell them that if they require that exclusion it will cost them the full going rate.


Full rate PLUS a premium since full rate is based on the presumption that images will be available for use.


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## gsgary (Apr 25, 2014)

Tell them they will have to pay your full rate because of no image usage on your website


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## Light Guru (Apr 25, 2014)

I'm guessing the original photographer pulled out because they also put the same requirement on them.


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## Cinka (Apr 30, 2014)

THE FINALE!

I sent the (potential) client a nice note letting them know I was happy to accommodate their request, but gave them several compelling reasons why I'd hoped they would change their mind. I didn't hear from them for 4 days. As the date drew closer, I realized they were probably going with someone else. They finally emailed me saying they chose the wedding photographer their planner recommended. All that for nothing. 

In the end, I remained professional even though they lead me to believe they were hiring me. I'm trying not to look at it like a waste of time and have learned quite a bit. I'm changing my contract - it's important this happened with a non-paying client as I'm not committed and safe to make the change for future clients. 

Thanks everyone for your wise words. I'm glad I have a place to come to when I do dumb things and can get constructive criticism and make the changes I need to in order to improve my business.


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