# Slack or plainly inept?



## Garbz (Sep 12, 2007)

Ok over the past year or so I have noticed a very sad trend. People don't research, they don't try to figure things out, and they don't READ THE ****** MANUAL.

I point the finger at the culprits being mainly young (my age, 23 and younger) who have grown up with computers and spent their lives at school being spoon fed information. For instance it is one thing to ask about HDR on the forum when a quick google search of even this forum search would give you more than you wanted to know to begin with, but it's quite another to post a question like how do you prevent the flash from firing, or who do I set my white balance. That little book that came with you camera, I don't want to hear you complain about it being over 100 pages, READ IT, and if you don't want to read it, at least look through the INDEX if the solution is in there.

I mean is that so difficult? It sounds obvious, but it's everywhere not even limited to photography.  I saw this even at uni today. I study engineering so we're kind of expected to go out and do a bit of research. 2 hours before our exam on transmission lines someone asked me how to solve one of the tute questions. I nearly lost it. 1) it was answered in the tute, 2) the solutions are up on the course website (person in question had his laptop next to him), and 3) that question was the first example in the set chapter in the prescribed textbook.

Am I the only one who gets really ticked off about this?


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## craig (Sep 12, 2007)

Why let it bother you? Either help the person or don't. Everyone learns at a different pace. Keep it positive. 

Love & Bass


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 12, 2007)

Garbz.....you are absolutely correct. There is at least one and a half generations of people who have been exposed to audio and visual info as a steady diet. The just want to have the precise info dropped into their head so they can race to the next question.

The creative process starts with independent thinking. That is why there are so many inane questions about "is this picture good"? floating around. 
As a student, you know that 'thinking' is hard work. Very few really like hard work. As a result, this spills over into their personal lives and we have a 'monkey-see-monkey-do' mentality starting to surface.



> Why let it bother you? Either help the person or don't. Everyone learns at a different pace.


 
The problem is they don't WANT to learn, they just want quick answers with no effort on their part.


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## Sideburns (Sep 12, 2007)

this is not just a generation of people...I know many my age who will actually venture to learn.  It's just that you don't notice the ones who search.  People who search usually don't create a thread saying "I searched the forum and got my answer!"


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## Richard (Sep 12, 2007)

Good point sideburns. On the other side of the coin I can say I have asked questions I know the answer is in the manual, but I might be at work and know that I most likely will forget my question by the time I get home. So it seems easier to just post the question and hope someone like craig mentioned, answers it for me.

I understand though that the general questions like "What camera should I buy?" is frustrating because it is not a simple question.

I really think sideburns makes a good point, there could be a large amount of people that could be doing their research we just can't see it. I know I have done plenty of my own research on photography, still sometimes you just want to ask a question instead of  spending time surfing for the answer.


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## JHF Photography (Sep 12, 2007)

Garbz and Jon, I have to agree with you.  It's becoming more common these days, and not just in regards to photography.  I work in an office, and I have had people phone me and ask for the number for our competion...


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## sabbath999 (Sep 12, 2007)

I totally agree with Garbz about his general statement (except I don't think it is particularly generational).

I have a totally different outlook (and am much more likely to answer) a poster who says "I have read through my manual twice, looked at the diagrams and examples and I just can't understand what it is saying"... because the person has made a serious effort to solve it themselves.

I think a lot of "techie" photographers (not referring to anybody in particular here, certainly not anybody who has posted on this thread so far... this is a generalized statement) forget that photography attracts a lot of people who are very artistic but not very tech oriented. Artsy people often do not "get" technical stuff intrinsically. However, they can generally READ a manual, and should do that first thing.

I am a fairly tech savvy person (I am a network system administrator by day) and I absolutely, positively read my camera manuals from cover to cover, usually four or five times... so much so that they are dog eared. Still, things stump me.

It took me forever to figure out how to change the focus areas on my D80's, simply because it doesn't explicitly say how to do it in the manual. I ended up googling it, and couldn't find it. I ended up calling Nikon, and it turned out to be simple... I was just being as dense as an anvil.

I am not saying that we shouldn't help newbies... but... my level of help is (and has been) directly related to the amount of homework that newbie has done. When somebody says they have spent the last 3 days reading all about the 4 cameras they are considering buying, then ask specific questions or opinions from people who use those cameras, I am all over that... and try to help as much as I can (which, when it comes to Canons, is not much since I don't use Canon DSLR's on a regular basis and have shot less than 1K pictures with an XTi). Nikon D80's & D40's I know because I own them.

In my business, we have an expression: RTFM

It stands for "Read The Freaking Manual".... well, it ALMOST stands for that if you know what I mean (UNIX geeks can substitute MAN page for manual). I will call tech support for some vendor and start the conversation "First, I did RTFM... I couldn't find out how to blah blah blah blah"


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## Garbz (Sep 12, 2007)

craig said:


> Why let it bother you? Either help the person or don't. Everyone learns at a different pace. Keep it positive.



I try, but i'm not getting frustrated at the pace people are learning at. I'm frustrated at the fact that they don't learn at all. They consume. They memorise an answer to a question. What will be most frustrating is that in 10 years when I head up a team of engineers or work in business depending on which way I want to go I'll most likely end up with these people working with me. Heck they already are.



Richard said:


> I really think sideburns makes a good point, there could be a large amount of people that could be doing their research we just can't see it. I know I have done plenty of my own research on photography, still sometimes you just want to ask a question instead of  spending time surfing for the answer.



Yes the thing that frustrates me is not the people who put even a little bit of effort in to their search for knowledge, but those who put none, nada, zero. I  have nothing against questions like ... I hope this is right but I think it was Iron Dreamer's recent one about tonemapping and how it relates to HDR, and if it can be done without HDR. That's a complex question which I don't think I have seen on this board. But the question that pops up a lot is "What is HDR?" Searching HDR on this board maxes out the search function. 200 results, and just on this board. Even easier jump into google and type "define:HDR":

"High Dynamic Range. This is a lighting procedure designed to emulate the way that light levels in the real world vary over an enormous range. This is mostly achieved by the use of floating point textures and render targets (as well as using the appropriate lighting algorithm); integer formats do not offer the anywhere near the same range of values. Although visually better, the use of floating point formats can result in a large performance impact on some graphics adapters." 

The answers pops up. What's worrying is when people who genuinely get used to the spoon feeding they get on a daily basis will react in unpredictable ways when faced with a real life problem. The growing trend to me is more than an annoyance but rather something I see that causes problems in society on the whole if even university students have a "what to think" not a "how to think" attitude.


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## JHF Photography (Sep 12, 2007)

Sabbath, I think you've made some really good points.  I also don't think it's confined to any one generation, although I have noticed it is a little more common with younger people (I'm 26, so I guess to some I am one of those "younger" people)

I agree that we sometimes forget that not everybody is tech savvy (as someone who is, I'm guilty of forgetting that).  I think the frustrating thing is the number of people who just don't even try!  Like you, I (and probably everyone else who has posted here) find it much more appealing to respond to a thread where the person has clearly done their research.

It's true that newbie's do need help, and I for one am willing to offer it.  But I think they would find the responses a little more friendly and helpful if they made it obvious that they did some homework of there own first.  I just shake my head when a newbie posts a question like "What settings should i use to take good pictures on my brand new D200" and then get's upset when people are a little less than helpful.


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## Richard (Sep 12, 2007)

Ahh I got you Garbz. I guess I haven't noticed this trend, I just figured some people are just lazy and some are not. I've always been a manual person, I remember how I would want to read a video game manual before I even started to play the game. Then I had friends that would only read it if they got stuck on something.


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## JHF Photography (Sep 12, 2007)

Garbz said:


> What's worrying is when people who genuinely get used to the spoon feeding they get on a daily basis will react in unpredictable ways when faced with a real life problem.


 
Exactly!  You can even see some of those reactions right here on these boards.  When somebody responds the spoon feeding request in a witty, or "learning encouraging" manner (such as "try google"), the OP's sometimes react in very bizzare ways, flying right off the handle occasionally.


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## The_Traveler (Sep 12, 2007)

JHF Photography said:


> Exactly!  You can even see some of those reactions right here on these boards.  When somebody responds the spoon feeding request in a witty, or "learning encouraging" manner (such as "try google"), the OP's sometimes react in very bizzare ways, flying right off the handle occasionally.



Having ducked several flying objects, I can agree with this. Honest, straightforward talk is not brutal by definition.


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## JHF Photography (Sep 12, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> Having ducked several flying objects, I can agree with this. Honest, straightforward talk is not brutal by definition.


 
LOL - Traveler, you were one of the people I had in mind when I was writing that.... I've seen those objects fly your way on a number of occasions (I've been hanging out on this forum for a few months... just started posting recently).


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## The_Traveler (Sep 12, 2007)

This thread prompted a spin-off
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=979162#post979162


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## Richard (Sep 12, 2007)

Funny, I've been waiting for The_Traveler to make a comment.


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## Buszaj (Sep 12, 2007)

I read the manual! Yay!! And I'm in the culprit category (16) But I think Garbz is right, reading the manual does help a lot. If ppl read it more often, less of those threads that can be answered in the manual.


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## Joxby (Sep 15, 2007)

Its symptomatic of todays society, people want things now now now, it just appears easier and quicker to ask than to spend time buried in a manual.
I notice few of these "manual" questions are asked for film cameras, parrallels can surely be drawn between the convenience of digital as a work ethic and the questions asked.


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## usayit (Sep 15, 2007)

I agree... and extends to almost everything in our lives..  each generation being groomed for more of the same thing as the last.  

Scary isn't it?


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 15, 2007)

I designed, wrote, illustrated and authored technical and "how to" publications for various industries (primarily automotive).  It has always been a problem, on any level, to get the 'potential' reader to open the pub.

It is hard work, making your eyes move left to right, and up and down.  You have to have coordination of hands to turn pages, its all so time consuming.  
On top of that, the reader must be able to comprehend the many little groups of letters  that make up words and sentences (or worse, numbers).  Then they must strain their brain to convert this to some kind of overall understanding of the solution to a problem. 

Even if they try, they want a 'guarantee' that they will get the correct solution on their first effort.

If you might not be sucessful on the first try, why bother?


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## elsaspet (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm one of those people who can read manuals until my eyes bleed, and I still "don't get it".
I'm a show me person, or at very least I want really simple dimple step by step instructions.
Luckily for me, people didn't mind helping.


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## Mike_E (Sep 15, 2007)

LOL  Still angry Jon?

There is another dynamic.  New posters, being new, want to get into the conversation right away.  Quite a number of them are not overly experienced and try as they might, in their exuberance,  ask questions which upon sober reflection they would not have asked.

This is not to say that there aren't some some slackers out there but let's not do the whole  'babe in the  bathwater thing'.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 15, 2007)

From my recollection, when I started taking pictures, I couldn't get enough material to read on the subject, whether in the form of books or magazines. Going back 25 years (and a bit), there wasn't an internet and it was a case of learn by reading, join a photography club, or if you had a very accommodating photography shop proprietor, you could pump them for info.

Today, everything is one tap and somewhere like TPF contains an amorphous mass of people with a like interest and probably vastly more experience than our occassionally maligned 'newbie''.

A lot of the time, the people mentioned don't know what question they should be asking, so how can they turn up decent information in a search, especially where the internet can throw up just as much bad info as good. Where better then, than to drop on here and ask the immortal question: Canon or Nikon (all the while bearing the good/bad info comment in mind)?

I can't see the comment here, but someone recently made a point about reading up on books on general photographic techniques as opposed specifically digital ones. That seems a sensible tack to me.

Hang on, what have I said so far, need a recap...

We live in an age where many suffer from information overload, why would we expect the field of photography be any different? Maybe all our our newbie wants is someone to help them make sense of it - once upon a time the sources of information were more limited and the delivery mechanism was subject to more validation than much of what we see now. Perhaps good information is actually harder to find now than it used to be?

PS. I reserve the right to ask dumb questions whenever the need arises... 

PPS. Delete approx 15% ramble factor from the above - you chose which bits...


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 15, 2007)

> There is another dynamic. New posters, being new, want to get into the conversation right away. Quite a number of them are not overly experienced and try as they might, in their exuberance, ask questions which upon sober reflection they would not have asked.


 
Thanks Mike....quite insightful. I'm sure this is so true, especially on a forum where they want to be 'one-of-the-people'.

I was (am) not angry, just saddened by some.

Had a boss who once said to me..."don't expect too much from people, that way you won't be so disappointed".


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## Garbz (Sep 15, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> I'm one of those people who can read manuals until my eyes bleed, and I still "don't get it".
> I'm a show me person, or at very least I want really simple dimple step by step instructions.
> Luckily for me, people didn't mind helping.



Yes but based on what I've seen of you on the forum you're still the type to make an attempt at solving your problems rather than shafting your issues off to others to solve. Even if you don't understand manuals there have been some questions asked on this forum alone which could be answered simply by hitting the menu button on the camera and looking at the possible options that come up.

What about the classical "What is aperture" If you google it the first thing that comes up is the wikipedia entry.

Chris the point is not a matter of being unable to sort the information given, it's about making an effort. I have nothing against dumb questions (or dumb people for that matter) as long as I can see they make at least some kind of effort. Thankfully we have not yet seen the question of "how do I take a picture" on this forum. At least on the whole people can still find the shutter button.

Jon that quote will stay with me for ever


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 15, 2007)

Garbz, I should have made myself clearer. I understand the question and the jaded cynic in me would love to just say you're right ("attaboy" if you like ), I just don't think it's the whole picture - though it may be a bigger part than we'd like to admit. At the end of the day, everybody has the right to ask dumb questions, it's just that some abuse the privilage...


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## Garbz (Sep 17, 2007)

... Hahahah yes very good point. That right should be earned in my opinion, but hey can't have it all.


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

Garbz said:


> Yes but based on what I've seen of you on the forum you're still the type to make an attempt at solving your problems rather than shafting your issues off to others to solve. Even if you don't understand manuals there have been some questions asked on this forum alone which could be answered simply by hitting the menu button on the camera and looking at the possible options that come up.
> 
> What about the classical "What is aperture" If you google it the first thing that comes up is the wikipedia entry.
> 
> ...


 
You give me way too much credit Garbz.  Many still here from years ago can attest to the fact that I asked every "stupid" question in the book.  I had no idea what "DOF" was, or why in the world I would ever use it.  I wanted to know the "standard" equipment needed for shooting, and the "standard" ISO for weddings.  I couldn't figure out for the longest time why my ISO 400, straight on flash, at f8 AV reception shots looked like crap.  You name the cunnundrum, I had it.
Yes, I could have bought EVEN more books, looked at every cockeyed explaination on the internet, or fumbled with the dials for infinity trying to figure it out for myself, but it was easier.....YES EASIER...to ask a trusted group of people for possible answers.
Yes, the same questions show up all the time.  And yes, it can be a drag sometimes to help out a new person.  But what is the harm?  What skin is it off anyone's nose?
I'm on another forum chocked full of some of the most famous wedding/portrait photographers on the planet.  I'll see the same old worn out questions ALL the time.  Stuff you think a pro wedding/portrait photographer should know.  However, these rockstar photogs, Bussink, Reggie, Yervant, Beckstead, *, Sergio....onandonandon....never amaze me at how ready they are to answer even the most mundane of questions, from the most beginner of poster.
Yeah, it takes a second, and yeah, it's the same question two days later..........but it's ok really.  Some of us just learn differently. *


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

Jon said:


> Thanks Mike....quite insightful. I'm sure this is so true, especially on a forum where they want to be 'one-of-the-people'.
> 
> I was (am) not angry, just saddened by some.
> 
> Had a boss who once said to me..."don't expect too much from people, that way you won't be so disappointed".


 
Why would it make you sad Jon?  All you have to do is hit the little "Ignore Poster" or "Ignore Thread" dittie.  (Pot calling kettle....I know...LOL).
Anyhow, there is two ways to look at it.  You can look at others as slackers, or you can look at them as eager to learn.
Or maybe you can look at it as being hopefully, the guy, who finally made them understand what their techie problem meant.
Peace!


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

Oh and Garbz, the question that confounded me.....and wore others out for months was, "Why would you use and UNSHARP mask to sharpen things?"  LOL.  Serious true question that stumped me forever!


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## RyanLilly (Sep 17, 2007)

Garbz said:


> ...That little book that came with you camera, I don't want to hear you complain about it being over 100 pages, READ IT...


Actually its only 50 pages; the other 50 are the same thing in Spanish.


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 17, 2007)

Hey Elsaspet......



> Even if you don't understand manuals there have been some questions asked on this forum alone which could be answered simply by hitting the menu button on the camera and looking at the possible options that come up.


....Garbz



> ..the point is not a matter of being unable to sort the information given, it's about making an effort.


....Garbz



> Its symptomatic of todays society, people want things now now now, it just appears easier and quicker to ask than to spend time buried in a manual.


......Joxby



> Garbz and Jon, I have to agree with you. It's becoming more common these days, and not just in regards to photography. I work in an office, and I have had people phone me and ask for the number for our competion...


.....JHF Photography




> At the end of the day, everybody has the right to ask dumb questions, it's just that some abuse the privilage...


....Chris of Arabia



> Ahh I got you Garbz. I guess I haven't noticed this trend, I just figured some people are just lazy and some are not. I've always been a manual person, I remember how I would want to read a video game manual before I even started to play the game. Then I had friends that would only read it if they got stuck on something.


....Richard

The thing that escapes many, is that often forum questions are lifted and pasted right from manuals.  Some answers are slightly reworded or excerpts.  _*Then they are read from the screen !*_



> From my recollection, when I started taking pictures, I couldn't get enough material to read on the subject, whether in the form of books or magazines. Going back 25 years (and a bit), there wasn't an internet and it was a case of learn by reading, join a photography club, or if you had a very accommodating photography shop proprietor, you could pump them for info.


....and all of these still exist today !


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## JHF Photography (Sep 17, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> Oh and Garbz, the question that confounded me.....and wore others out for months was, "Why would you use and UNSHARP mask to sharpen things?" LOL. Serious true question that stumped me forever!


 
LOL! That question still bewilders me... I've given up understanding why it's called an UNsharp mask and just accepted the fact that it is used to sharpen images......:scratch: (oh, sure, elsaspet... make me question it again... back to therapy for me!)

Edit: I should clarify, I never actually asked anybody why it was called that..... kept that question to myself......


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## Steph (Sep 17, 2007)

JHF Photography said:


> LOL! That question still bewilders me... I've given up understanding why it's called an UNsharp mask and just accepted the fact that it is used to sharpen images......:scratch: (oh, sure, elsaspet... make me question it again... back to therapy for me!)


 
I read somewhere that the term unsharp mask comes from a photographic darkroom technique, in which a sharper print is made by exposing the paper through an underexposed and blurred positive film copy of the negative sandwiched with the real negative. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong or if it does not make sense.


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

Jon, no offense, but I see this is useless to continue on my part.
If I could read the freaking manual, I would understand the screen prompts.  It's just lost on you I suppose.  (Maybe there is a manual for that.....put it in google...I'm sure it will come up)
However, the fact is, no one makes you "lower yourself" to "stupid slacker questions".
Another fact is, many of the people I admire, selflessly do....all the time.
It's just their way of getting over themselves and giving back to the community that gave them so much. Your mileage may vary.
Peace.


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

Steph said:


> I read somewhere that the term unsharp mask comes from a photographic darkroom technique, in which a sharper print is made by exposing the paper through an underexposed and blurred positive film copy of the negative sandwiched with the real negative. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong or if it does not make sense.


 

Way over my head!!!!  I love just clicking the little slacker button.
Cool lesson though.  My techie hubby would understand that.  And then he'd dumb it down for me. 
Very cool that you shared that!!!!!!


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## elsaspet (Sep 17, 2007)

JHF Photography said:


> LOL! That question still bewilders me... I've given up understanding why it's called an UNsharp mask and just accepted the fact that it is used to sharpen images......:scratch: (oh, sure, elsaspet... make me question it again... back to therapy for me!)
> 
> Edit: I should clarify, I never actually asked anybody why it was called that..... kept that question to myself......


 
No problem JHF....just between you and me, we'll call it the sharpening thingie.  Hopefully there are no "proper photographic verbage usage police" around.
LOL.
Hugs,
Cindy


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## Richard (Sep 17, 2007)

Chris of Arabia said:


> We live in an age where many suffer from information overload, why would we expect the field of photography be any different? Maybe all our our newbie wants is someone to help them make sense of it - once upon a time the sources of information were more limited and the delivery mechanism was subject to more validation than much of what we see now. Perhaps good information is actually harder to find now than it used to be?


 
I think you nailed it! I can't help but think this relates back to the 1900s. I am sure my greatgrandfather could say "I use to walk to school... up hill both ways, now people take the easy way and drive". Times have changed and will always be changing. The internet has got to be one of the biggest changes to our lives. So I can see why some people may not open the manual that came with their camera I mean why would they need too, they can just read it online.


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## Garbz (Sep 17, 2007)

unsharp mask... I nearly fell off my chair :lmao:

Another good example of what I was talking about yesterday. Someone asked what a light metre is specifically relating to the book "understanding exposure" and how it works on the camera. I explained the former, described what the metre looks like and what it does, and then pointed him or her to page 43 and 47 of the D40 manual.

This was an acceptable question since the link between the book and the specifics of the camera model are not explained in the camera manual. If the question had been "where is the metre on the camera" I would have been more inclined to reply RTFM page 5!


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## elsaspet (Sep 18, 2007)

I know!  Isn't it crazy?


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## Mike_E (Sep 18, 2007)

Steph said:


> I read somewhere that the term unsharp mask comes from a photographic darkroom technique, in which a sharper print is made by exposing the paper through an underexposed and blurred positive film copy of the negative sandwiched with the real negative. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong or if it does not make sense.



I think that your are right Steph.  It does mask out the unsharp parts anyway.  

 As far as there being some who don't read the manual and some who do...

I took my son to a concert at a warehouse the other night and while waiting for him to come out I noticed young girls holding hands and talking about boyfriends and where they were to live.  Young boys horsing around for the girls' entertainment and complementing each other for this and that- paying their membership fees if you like.  Boys and girls hugging and saying hello and good-by in turn.

The night was soft and the leaves on the Bradford Pears were moving just enough to shimmer the light around them.  And there were the Policemen looking sternly at no one in particular because they had nothing else to do.

Some parents were impatiently waiting, some were indifferent and some were enjoying the night.  

For all of our technical advances, our species has changed very little over the years.

I find that comforting. 

mike


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## JDS (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm coming in kind of late on this thread, granted, I don't post all that much anyway.  I try to weigh in to help somebody out if I know that I know what I'm talking about, and if someone else hasn't already answered their question.

I also tend to not help, at least as much, when the one asking the question has done absolutely nothing to help him/herself.  Give a guy a fish, feed him for a day, teach him how, well...you get the idea.

But that's all been beat to death by everyone participating in this thread, and everybody who has spoken up has very great points.  So, I wanted to throw this idea out and see what everybody thought.  I suppose I am also volunteering to put it together if everyone is okay with it, but I'll need help to do it.

What if we put together sort of an FAQ and sticky it in the Beginner's Forum?  Take all these questions that generally have canned responses (Which camera should I buy?  What is aperture?  Maybe even try to tackle the dreaded 1.6x crop factor question??) and put them all in one post, or add them to the general FAQ section at the top of every page in here.

The first thing we'd need, obviously, would be a list of these questions that should be included.  I've listed 3 just off the top of my head - I didn't want to do too much digging to see what all was really asked that frequently without seeing what everybody else thought of the idea.  Lots of you guys are the ones fielding these questions in the first place, so I thought this would be the best place to ask.  Plus I thought it might be easier to link to a single post rather than type out a response every time.

You won't hurt my feelings if you all think it's the most idiotic idea ever..I just wanted to throw the idea out and see what you thought.  Again, I'm volunteering to put it all together, format it to look nice, etc..I'll just need help with all the answers.  I'd try to find the best answer(s) to questions in the Beginner's Forum itself, but we should probably get input from all the 'experts', and especially the forum staff before it was 'published'.


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## The_Traveler (Sep 18, 2007)

JDS said:


> What if we put together sort of an FAQ and sticky it in the Beginner's Forum?  Take all these questions that generally have canned responses (Which camera should I buy?  What is aperture?  Maybe even try to tackle the dreaded 1.6x crop factor question??) and put them all in one post, or add them to the general FAQ section at the top of every page in here.



This would be a good resource if, instead of answering the basic questions, responders would respond by saying "read this FAQ and get back to us if your question isn't answered." 

Digital Matt put together a excellent bunch of links to resources at  http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84306 and titles of these could easily be the structure for a list of questions with answers derived in part from those links. 

I think it would be a great jump start if you derived a list of questions and tentative answers that interested parties could append/edit.


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## JDS (Sep 18, 2007)

The_Traveler said:


> This would be a good resource if, instead of answering the basic questions, responders would respond by saying "read this FAQ and get back to us if your question isn't answered."


Exactly my thinking...



> Digital Matt put together a excellent bunch of links to resources at  http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84306 and titles of these could easily be the structure for a list of questions with answers derived in part from those links.
> 
> I think it would be a great jump start if you derived a list of questions and tentative answers that interested parties could append/edit.


I hadn't seen that..I don't think I'm quite good enough in photography for that area (yet, anyway..)  That's a perfect start to what I was thinking.  Sending him a PM now to request permission to plagiarize. 

Once I have that, and maybe a few more replies here from others willing to help, I'll start wading through the Beginner's Forum and get started.

Thanks!


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## Garbz (Sep 18, 2007)

I bet you there's at least 1 person a week who will post the question without reading the thread :er:


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## JDS (Sep 19, 2007)

hehe, probably.  But it's still easier to paste a link than answer the question every time. 

If I can get some time while I'm at work today I'll start gathering up some of the more common ones and try to start putting it all together.


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## THORHAMMER (Sep 20, 2007)

ive got a bussy who calls me to ask crap that you could EASILY look up in google. he just thinks I know everything or he is lazy. 

I had to stop awnsering his calls it got so bad. 

He was starting to use me like a directory service. But he helped me 
to move a 50 gallon aquarium once. so I guess were even those thing are sooooooo heavy ...

I would say use google, its your best friend, if you really cant get the info you need ask, but pick your battles and differienciate between when you want facts and opinions....  lots of questions lost there cause we cant read tone of voice over the net.


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## Hill202 (Sep 22, 2007)

Garbz said:


> unsharp mask... I nearly fell off my chair :lmao:
> 
> Another good example of what I was talking about yesterday. Someone asked what a light metre is specifically relating to the book "understanding exposure" and how it works on the camera. I explained the former, described what the metre looks like and what it does, and then pointed him or her to page 43 and 47 of the D40 manual.
> 
> This was an acceptable question since the link between the book and the specifics of the camera model are not explained in the camera manual. If the question had been "where is the metre on the camera" I would have been more inclined to reply RTFM page 5!


 
and I appreciate it.


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## Garbz (Sep 23, 2007)

What are you doing here you shouldn't be reading this thread


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## Hill202 (Sep 23, 2007)

Ok...sigh, I'm going back to the Beginner section. Can someone tell me the way?


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## usayit (Sep 24, 2007)

Is it just me... or there is a lot of "this" happening lately?

We just had a poster post this after asked to search on a very general question:

"Yeah I know theres alot of info on here I just dont have alot of time so its easier for me"


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## sabbath999 (Sep 24, 2007)

usayit said:


> Is it just me... or there is a lot of "this" happening lately?
> 
> We just had a poster post this after asked to search on a very general question:
> 
> "Yeah I know theres alot of info on here I just dont have alot of time so its easier for me"



Clicky Here


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## RacePhoto (Sep 24, 2007)

We don't neeed no stinkin manuals. Reading the instructions is for wussies. Real Men don't read maps!

Of course, there are people like me who will try to answer questions, and actually read the manuals and online tips and resources. I love to collect maps. (and I don't own a auto GPS yet, except one very old one, for Netstumbling and fooling around.)


I don't let it bother me, except when someone asks "how do I..." and then starts arguing about other ways to do it, or ignores me, and ends up screwing something up. Then I wonder, "why did you ask me, if you are going to argue and not listen!" dumb a$$


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## Garbz (Sep 25, 2007)

It would probably be faster reading up rather than waiting for answers. Especially if you ask broad generic questions with ambiguous interpretations.


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## sabbath999 (Sep 25, 2007)

Garbz said:


> It would probably be faster reading up rather than waiting for answers. Especially if you ask broad generic questions with ambiguous interpretations.



Are there any other kinds?


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 25, 2007)

> Are there any other kinds?


 
Yes there are. Now you just wait here for a few days, and one of the 
local nit-picker/Measurebaters will explain it all to you in great, boring and unnecessary detail.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Hey Jon,
I have a great automation idea for you. It would save you loads of time at the computer.

Make three scrips:

One that says, "Look it up yourself loser"
One that says, "Didn't you read the rules? BTW-you are a loser"
And another that says, "All you need is a rock, an empty can, and a broken mirror to take great photos. And also, only a loser would ask that question".

LOL.


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## LaFoto (Sep 25, 2007)

But hey. Folks.
Ask yourselves what internet forums are there for?
Why do photography forums exist?
For whom were they made?

Like this one.
A very general one.
Not directed at any special group, like pros-only, or Canon-users only, or Nikon-users only, or Olympus-users only.

Why are they there?
In order to tell new people to the hobby to best go away again and look somewhere else?

Even I once asked the much dreaded question "What is HDR". Here. On this very TPF. I am lucky I asked MY question before you were here, but I once was new, too, and HDR was new to me, as well, and I did not know the meaning of the abbreviation. And I COULD have used the SEARCH tool, or I could have googled it and got 12.000 articles with HDR mentioned once and I could and could and could --- and didn't. I simply asked HERE. Because that is what internet forums are there for.

Aren't they?


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Yes, LaFoto, that's exactly the purpose.
So many people forget that.
And they also conveniently forget that they too were once nooobeees.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 25, 2007)

usayit said:


> Is it just me... or there is a lot of "this" happening lately?
> 
> We just had a poster post this after asked to search on a very general question:
> 
> "Yeah I know theres alot of info on here I just dont have alot of time so its easier for me"


 
I think that's called delegation...


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't know about anyone else around here, but my time is valuable to me.  If I have a question, I ask it.


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## danalec99 (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> I don't know about anyone else around here, but my time is valuable to me.  If I have a question, I ask it.


I don't believe the fine gentlemen in this thread are against asking questions. The issue as I see is towards people who don't even want to make an effort. 

Garbz had a great example in the first post:


> I study engineering so we're kind of expected to go out and do a bit of research. 2 hours before our exam on transmission lines someone asked me how to solve one of the tute questions. I nearly lost it. 1) it was answered in the tute, 2) the solutions are up on the course website (person in question had his laptop next to him), and 3) that question was the first example in the set chapter in the prescribed textbook.


There is a difference between: 

'Hi, I'm going to start a photography business next month. what camera should I buy' 

and 

'should I pick 40D over a 1Ds Mark III'.

The first question is asked by the person who has not made an effort at all.  (when I see questions like that my initial reaction, even though I don't spell it out is, 'What car should I buy?')


To which your response I assume would be 'we all were once newbies and have asked the same questions'. Yes we were newbies, but with lots of drive. Let's take you for example. You thoroughly did you research. You had an "I want to learn" attitude. You had the hunger and hungry people do not wait to be fed. You worked real hard towards your goals. And now you are reaping the harvest.

No amount of spoon-feeding will replace hard work backed by passion. There is a fine line between feeding and helping.


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## usayit (Sep 25, 2007)

For me, it comes down to one thing....  If the original poster doesn't want to put any effort into the first post in a thread they create, why would they expect those responding to do any differently.

-- edit --

seems that danalec and I are on the same page.. hehe..

If your time is valuable and limited, the least you can do is expect everyone else's to be just as valuable.


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## LaFoto (Sep 25, 2007)

And yet, Daniel, why come along all uppity (which you don't do, but some here are just about to develop that tendency) ... such questions as "What camera should I by?" come and go and won't get my reply, for all I then do is think: "That decision is entirely up to you in the end, what can we say?"

I mean, sure enough I have been phoned up by people before or been asked on another of the forums I go to what camera I (since they all seem to think I am the knowledgable one, cough-cough) would recommend they give their wives, sons, whoever, as present for Christmas. Then, in our conversation, we find out what they want to achieve in the end, how much knowledge of photography as such they have to begin with, also how good they are with things (I would never recommend an SLR or a DSLR to a mother who says "My son's such a messy, he keeps losing things and I am afraid he might even lose the camera!" - in such cases you best NOT have both body and lens! For example ... but again that is only my opinion). 

But the decision is taken by those people in the end!

So personally I tend to entirely skip those threads.

But I know from my husband, who sometimes goes to a Flight Simulator Forum, but who does not register there because he hates the uppity tone of the longer-standing members, that there are people there like himself who wish to find one little answer on one particular setting for a particular panel, and therefore go to that forum to ask their question instead of searching the whole www, and they get told "Oh my, if you have to ask even THAT you better think twice if the Flight Simulator should be your hobby", and such replies are just nasty. 

I would very much hope for this forum NOT to turn into that path!


----------



## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

Ahh Dan, but some of the "fine gentlemen" are against exactly that.

Instead of saying, "Gee, I'm not sure what the best camera is for what you DREAM of doing is.  Please give more info."
what we get is, "Look it up.  I don't have time to answer you.  You are obviously too stupid to start a photography business".

Big Big Big difference.

In the first place, if people are so miffed, so offended, so BUSY they can't type an answer, why bother with typing an insulting one?  I mean, what's the point?

And also good to remember is while some  don't have all their ducks in a row,  it's their money, and their DREAM. Just think of what type of world this would be if everyone looked down their noses.  What if people just stopped helping each other?  What if we all went around saying, "I figured it out for myself, and you should do the same".  We would be back to the Renisance in a hurry.

And yes, people could go sweat and toil in a library like the "purists" did.  But the "purists" forget that some nice photog took the time out of their day to answer all their "stupid" newbie questions in the first place.

I think most people here are good and tired of the few bullies we have.  I think, and I pray, that we put an end to it soon.


----------



## abraxas (Sep 25, 2007)

Being unintentionally blunt, a purposeful wiseass and enjoying sarcasm the way I do, I probably shouldn't throw stones, but ... I've read a few things that have made even me cringe.  Yes, I've even said a few too- Most due to insensitivity.  Some things I'm trying to get over.  Takes a little time.

There are stupid questions!  Got to have 'em.   There's no sense in treating someone who asks any question as if they are stupid though.

On the other hand, being 'too good' to do something as simple as reading a 'sticky' before a post in a new forum, well, I feel that's just disrespect and the 'noobie' should be called on it- brought to their attention, at least in the critique sections.  

There, after the initial shock, I think Motcon had the best idea with his stamps although he should have been able to move posts to the galleries. when applicable.  In the long haul General and Specific Critique could have turned into something of unique value to TPF. 

Most of those who sniveled and whined about it don't come around that much, and haven't participated since he left anyhow.  Being able to get or develop an objective critique has suffered, and it's turning into 'just another gallery' for the most part-  seeking inertia.


----------



## abraxas (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> ...
> I think most people here are good and tired of the few bullies we have.  I think, and I pray, that we put an end to it soon.



Isn't that in itself, "Bullying?"


----------



## Battou (Sep 25, 2007)

I am seeing more and more kids are not being taught how to do proper research and/or they just don't learn how to begin researching. Your standard issue  search can prove a little overwhelming If you don't really know what you are looking for. Let's take the everpopular HDR for example, something I know nothing about, I'm not a digital photographer, why should I. The fastest and easiest search I can think of is to wiki-it because wiki knows all.

Problem: Wikipedia knows too much, the search brings up 



> * High Dose Rate, a treatment technique in radiotherapy
> * High dynamic range imaging, digital imaging
> * High dynamic range rendering, 3D image rendering
> * Higher Degree by Research, a term for Postgraduate education
> ...


Well...simple Process of elimination rules out most of those and they're left with 
    * High dynamic range imaging, digital imaging
    * High dynamic range rendering, 3D image rendering

Given the assumption that they are a true noob, the options they're looking at is reading both of the articles, google it (worrying about sifting threw all the extra information they just ruled out of Wikipedia's inventory), Or ask some one who knows. 

Now I am assuming quite a bit here, but never the less the possibility remains they don't think of a Google search and it may not dawn on them that the most predominate Google result is High dynamic range imaging or High dynamic range photography. 

It's far easier and lazier to punch it into a search engine than it is to register on a forum and ask for advice. A view point to take into consideration is perhaps it's not a "I don't feel like going threw the effort" factor, but a "Where should I begin?" or "What (exactly) am I looking for?" factor.

That is just my train of thought. Now, I haven't read any of the articles, so I don't know how confusing it would be to try reading up on the two remaining articles, I personally, see no reason for me to research it further, but any who.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

abraxas said:


> Isn't that in itself, "Bullying?"


 
No, I think it's a chance to bring us back to being civilized.  If enough people are tired of it, these same people shouldn't be afraid to voice their reasonable thoughts.

Think of it as a time out for the bully.  If he/she gets enough time outs, they will see that their nasty comments are not only a waste of time, but are also not appreciated by the forum at large.  As it stands now, most people are just too afraid of the bullies.  These reasonable posters had no idea how many others were tired of the bullies too, or the power of their numbers.

Reasonable people will be reasonable....even to the bullies, I hope.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

abraxas said:


> Being unintentionally blunt, a purposeful wiseass and enjoying sarcasm the way I do, I probably shouldn't throw stones, but ... I've read a few things that have made even me cringe. Yes, I've even said a few too- Most due to insensitivity. Some things I'm trying to get over. Takes a little time.
> 
> There are stupid questions! Got to have 'em. There's no sense in treating someone who asks any question as if they are stupid though.
> 
> ...


 

Hey, I've been there.  I got tired of the questions too, and gave people what I thought was the appropriate bashing.
But.......then I came to my senses and remembered my own newbe days.
Motcom was a bully in the tenth degree.  He was a bully that was thankfully run off by the multitudes that were sick of it.
But I think there is a bit more housekeeping to be done.....but hopefully, I would prefer some serious changes in attitude.  No one wants anyone gone.  We are just sick of the bullies.

I see two options for the bullies:  (And this is not directed at you)

1.  Stop posting your insulting posts.  Put the offending poster on ignore, (the dreaded newbie) and go and share some of your own photos for a change.

2.  Go find another forum that you can feel superior in.  We aren't gonna put up with it here.

There aren't a whole lot of bullies here, but the ones who insist on sticking around and making everyone's day a mess, need to either get a change of attitude, or find a new place to haunt.  Just my opinion.


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## elsaspet (Sep 25, 2007)

And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.


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## Chris of Arabia (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
> Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
> That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
> No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.


 
Which was kind of my point way back here, though I suspect the gift of eloquence deserted me at some point...


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## Hill202 (Sep 25, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> But hey. Folks.
> Ask yourselves what internet forums are there for?
> Why do photography forums exist?
> For whom were they made?
> ...


 
Well said! As a beginner, I find it much more interesting to come here and ask some basic questions in addition to doing some of my own research. I enjoy associating with others that share the same interests as I do. I would also think it would be fulfilling for some of you seasoned photographers to share your knowledge with us rookies.


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## Battou (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
> Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
> That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
> No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.



lol, I was kinda forced to cut my post a little short, so It may have been misinturprited... But yeah I do keep that in mind. I am the kind of person who thinks that a stupid question may not be as stupid as it looks. If it's asked in a serious attempt to learn some thing and/or narrow down the choices, I see no particular reason to deny an individual some information.


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## abraxas (Sep 25, 2007)

elsaspet said:


> ...Hey, I've been there.  I got tired of the questions too, and gave people what I thought was the appropriate bashing.
> ...



I don't want to be mis-interpreted here, I said 'called,' not bashed.

I'm also certain my beginnings were much different than yours.


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## Jon, The Elder (Sep 27, 2007)

> I'm also certain my beginnings were much different than yours.


 
As was mine....noobies didn't exist (nor the word itself).


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## JHF Photography (Sep 27, 2007)

danalec99 said:


> I don't believe the fine gentlemen in this thread are against asking questions. The issue as I see is towards people who don't even want to make an effort.
> 
> To which your response I assume would be 'we all were once newbies and have asked the same questions'. Yes we were newbies, but with lots of drive. Let's take you for example. You thoroughly did you research. You had an "I want to learn" attitude. You had the hunger and hungry people do not wait to be fed. You worked real hard towards your goals. And now you are reaping the harvest.


 
Thank you, danalec, and well said.



elsaspet said:


> Instead of saying, "Gee, I'm not sure what the best camera is for what you DREAM of doing is. Please give more info."
> what we get is, "Look it up. I don't have time to answer you. You are obviously too stupid to start a photography business".
> 
> Big Big Big difference.


 
You make a great point here. It really is important how questions are answered, and tone and wording can make the difference in the way the thread progresses. A lot of the flaming threads could have been avoided by a slightly less curt response to an (unfortunately) stupid question.



Battou said:


> I am seeing more and more kids are not being taught how to do proper research and/or they just don't learn how to begin researching. Your standard issue search can prove a little overwhelming If you don't really know what you are looking for. Let's take the everpopular HDR for example, something I know nothing about, I'm not a digital photographer, why should I. The fastest and easiest search I can think of is to wiki-it because wiki knows all.
> 
> Problem: Wikipedia knows too much, the search brings up


 
I think this is very true of today... the amount of people who don't have the necessary skills to research things for themselves astounds me at times. And yes, Wikipedia and Google pull up an overwhelming amount of information that may be far too much for a newbie to digest or even distinguish the correct stuff from. However, you left out the fact that this forum has a very basic search tool as well, and generally the results it pulls up have very useful, well answered and discussed information. It is a lot less overwhelming than google, as everything searched on here is (99% of the time) directly related to photography.


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## Richard (Sep 27, 2007)

You know what is funny is if I remember right my first post was something like "what camera do you recommend?" and it never crossed my mind that this question would be so frequent. I really thought I might be the first person in a month to ask that. Actually I remember it now, I was doing research when like a light bulb went off in my head I thought "hey you should look for a photography forum and ask that question and get an answer that is current", I was so excited and proud of myself to think of that. When I joined I didn't waste anytime I quickly asked the question. Now looking back I see how much of a common newbie I was. It wasn't till after I became a member and learned more about photography and learned more about forums that I realized that I shouldn't have posted that question... but I can't really do it over I just have to move on and hope no one remembers how newbie I was.... still am. 

But I will never give another newbie a hard time about it, obviously because I was there.

Another side note: If you have never joined a forum before you may not know how to really use it.

Anyway just thought I would share that story because I can't believe I was one! As Homer Simpson would say... "DOH!"


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## wildmaven (Sep 27, 2007)

I am a long standing member of a general forum which has over 100,000 members, most of whom are between the ages of 13 and 18. I am there to watch for internet predators. I have seen a variation of just about every thread imaginable at least ten times. Somedays I just don't have the energy to reply to the repeated questions, so I just don't reply. Other times I do reply, and I treat those questions the same way I treated that question the first time I replied to it. Sometimes the kids come up with a thread saying "I was just sitting here wondering what the contrasts and comparisons were between Othello and Iago. What are your thoughts on this?"  I obviously know they're trying to get others to do their homework, and I will POLITELY call them on it. The members of the forum have given me the nickname "the velvet fist" because I can get my point across without having to resort to name calling or making the person feel really bad. I have learned to log off and go stand in the sun if I feel myself becoming irritated at a member. Perhaps that should be one of the forum rules. 

Marian


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## Garbz (Sep 28, 2007)

Nah if everyone had to log off and stand in the sun every time they got irritated on the internet a) there'd be no one left on the net, and b) we'd all die of skin cancer.


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## LaFoto (Sep 28, 2007)

Richard said:


> You know what is funny is if I remember right my first post was something like "what camera do you recommend?" and it never crossed my mind that this question would be so frequent. I really thought I might be the first person in a month to ask that. Actually I remember it now, I was doing research when like a light bulb went off in my head I thought "hey you should look for a photography forum and ask that question and get an answer that is current", I was so excited and proud of myself to think of that. When I joined I didn't waste anytime I quickly asked the question. Now looking back I see how much of a common newbie I was. *It wasn't till after I became a member and learned more about photography and learned more about forums that I realized that I shouldn't have posted that question...* but I can't really do it over I just have to move on and hope no one remembers how newbie I was.... still am. ...


 
And yes. You should have. Why not?
I still think that this is what internet forums are there for!
And also I, when I first joined TPF some 3 1/2 years ago, never stopped to really read any guidelines ... took me weeks to even find the Welcome and Introductions-forum "down there in the basement" where it has always been, for I was so excited to have become a member and so keen to get my first pics shown ... I am the first to be blamed for having been a new member who did NOT read the guidelines or check out the forum THOROUGHLY first. Like yourself, also I was just happiness and excitement personified over having found this forum and plunged in head first!

Now I do see both sides of the medal, as we would say in German.

I see where Garbz comes from (and some of the others who claim that most people today wish to get each and every snippet of information spoon-fed to them), and I see where you come from, and I came from (who I also once simply asked the much dreaded question of "What is HDR?", although I could have looked it up elsewhere!!!).

I am also member on another forum (have been for over six years now), which is an author's fan forum, where she herself (i.e the author) and her admin are their sole mods, too, and after some 3 or 4 years with that forum running had gone by and the newbies came and over and again asked the same questions about herself, her life, her books etc (info that could all be found easily on her homepage, too), she set down to write a sticky-article for newbies, and that they please take the time to first read through her homepage, the forum archives, and if they THEN STILL did not find the answer to the question they have (which they most likely WOULD!), they were very welcome to ask it. And hey, over there it works! 

(But that may be the case because she, the forum owner, is a well-respected book author and her fans all look up to her quite a bit, so she displays an authority that helps her greatly in getting this issue of newbies-asking-the-same-over-and-again solved thus easily).


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## ZedU54 (Sep 28, 2007)

...now, I HAVE read the manuals for my cameras, and done a little looking around on the Web for information as well, but that isn't going to guarantee that I won't nonetheless have questions that might seem elementary...for example, I'm having a little trouble understanding the term 'macro' as it applies to photography...

LaFoto...'both sides of the medal' = 'both sides of the coin'...die beide Seiten der Münze?...


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## LaFoto (Sep 28, 2007)

"Zwei Seiten einer Medaille"  ... welcome to ThePhotoForum, ZedU54 from New Brunswick in ... oops. "ME"? Is that the abbreviation of Maine?

And yes, I still vote for this forum - as any internet forum - to also be there for one or the other "silly" question. My - I still could ask so many of those!!!


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## Alex_B (Sep 28, 2007)

Nobody is forced to answer a question he does not like. It is as simple as that for me 

On some days those questions which are asked again and again and could be easlily answered in the manual or elsewhere,just would be a pain to answer, so then I just ignore them. On other days, when in the mood, I might even give a freindly and lengthy answer.


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## Alex_B (Sep 28, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> My - I still could ask so many of those!!!



Go for it! Don't be shy!


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## ZedU54 (Sep 28, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> "Zwei Seiten einer Medaille"  ... welcome to ThePhotoForum, ZedU54 from New Brunswick in ... oops. "ME"? Is that the abbreviation of Maine?
> 
> And yes, I still vote for this forum - as any internet forum - to also be there for one or the other "silly" question. My - I still could ask so many of those!!!


 
...verzeihe bitte meine Mißübersetzung!...:mrgreen:...ich kann etwas Deutsch...

...it's just Brunswick; *New* Brunswick is in Canada...and yes, it is Maine...the name, by the way, is an Anglicization of Braunschweig...


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## Garbz (Sep 28, 2007)

huh? Mißübersetzung is that the correct word? Never come across it myself. Ein paar von uns sprechen Deutsch!

The question of what macro is though as easy as it sounds can cause quite some discussion. There's plenty of lenses that are marked Macro despite not being able to achieve the 1:1 reproduction ratio of the "proper" macro lenses. But again I say this rant was started by me because of a lack of effort. Compare:

"What is macro?" to "I know macro is associated with magnified objects but is there a real definition of macro."

The former implies spoon feeding. The latter implies that someone has given it some thought and is looking for more information. I'm sure most people know macro has to do with the magnification of small objects but the way you word the question can also give you very different results.

For the former you may get results like "taking photos of small things is macro photography". The latter question is more likely to include the terms "reproduction ratio, and what 1:1 means"


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## ZedU54 (Sep 29, 2007)

Garbz said:


> huh? Mißübersetzung is that the correct word? Never come across it myself. Ein paar von uns sprechen Deutsch!
> 
> The question of what macro is though as easy as it sounds can cause quite some discussion. There's plenty of lenses that are marked Macro despite not being able to achieve the 1:1 reproduction ratio of the "proper" macro lenses. But again I say this rant was started by me because of a lack of effort. Compare:
> 
> ...


 
...well, I'm not sure if 'Mißübersetzung' (for 'mistranslation') is a proper word or not, but 'Mißverständnis' ('misunderstanding') is...I was logically extending that 'Miß-' prefix (German being a very 'logical' language...:mrgreen...
...back to topic: in other words, 'macro' refers to a lens's ability to actually magnify an object to produce an actual-size (hence the 1:1 ratio) image...got it!...


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## Hill202 (Sep 29, 2007)

Garbz said:


> huh? Mißübersetzung is that the correct word? "


 
Read your manual, page 47!



Somebody had to say it


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## Battou (Sep 29, 2007)

JHF Photography said:


> Battou said:
> 
> 
> > I am seeing more and more kids are not being taught how to do proper research and/or they just don't learn how to begin researching. Your standard issue  search can prove a little overwhelming If you don't really know what you are looking for. Let's take the everpopular HDR for example, something I know nothing about, I'm not a digital photographer, why should I. The fastest and easiest search I can think of is to wiki-it because wiki knows all.
> ...



Ah, the fact I left that out also brings attention to an interesting yet opposite aspect as well. On a few diffrent web sites (including this one) I have been complimented on having "Eagle Eyes" seeing things some people don't, but yet I over looked this. Yes, Running a search for Photography related information on a Photography forum/web site (or any other single subject site) would get the correct information, It's a logical conclution. However, some times the easiest solution gets over looked when it is obvious.


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## Garbz (Sep 30, 2007)

Hill202 said:


> Read your manual, page 47!
> 
> Somebody had to say it


My manual is in english


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## LaFoto (Sep 30, 2007)

Very good try, ZedU, however, despite the fact that "misunderstanding" is, indeed, "Missverständnis" in German (new orthography, two s because of short i-sound!), and even though there is some logic and many analogies, here it would be "Fehlübersetzung", or simply working with an adjective "falsche Übersetzung".  

I will also always willingly spoon-feed you German bits and pieces !


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## ZedU54 (Sep 30, 2007)

LaFoto said:


> Very good try, ZedU, however, despite the fact that "misunderstanding" is, indeed, "Missverständnis" in German (new orthography, two s because of short i-sound!), and even though there is some logic and many analogies, here it would be "Fehlübersetzung", or simply working with an adjective "falsche Übersetzung".
> 
> I will also always willingly spoon-feed you German bits and pieces !


 
...well, that would be much appreciated...my German is about 35 years old (I guess that goes without saying!)...so it might be in need of some serious updating...now, I heard something about some new spelling changes a few years ago...oh, well...enough sidetracking...perhaps we need to start a new thread if we're going to discuss the finer points of the German language...:mrgreen:...but I always welcome the opportunity to practice my German...


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## LaFoto (Sep 30, 2007)

Still hijacking this thread, but this requires an immediate answer: best chance for you not only to meet some of us as real persons but ALSO to brush up your German in leaps and bounds would be the week from 24-31 May 2008, which you would want to mark in your new calendar - and then you should start looking at reasonably priced flights across the ocean and really start to make plans to come and be here! (Couldn't let such an opportunity to advertise "my" meet-up pass - sorry, OP! I don't want to be *slack* on that "matter of mine", see?)


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## ZedU54 (Sep 30, 2007)

...having already spent some time in Germany, and having thoroughly enjoyed the experience, if I had the money, I would certainly jump at the chance...unfortunately, I don't see that happening...:sad anim:


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## TLTownsend (Sep 30, 2007)

I have to admit I am probably the most non reading manual person in the world on or about anything.  I hate reading manuals and usually by the time I read the first page I am asleep.  I also seldom ask questions.  I do it the hard way much to cameras dislike.  I am the type that takes it out of the box, puts the battery in, throws a lens on it and starts shooting and poking the buttons, whistles and bells to see what happens.  

This is why I join sites like this for I find by reading the forums and looking for certain topics and can usally find the answer to most of my questions and it may be quicker going to the manual but to me it is more fun this way .


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## chris_arnet (Sep 30, 2007)

I admit, I fall into the culprit category, but im not a culprit. I like to figure things out for myself. I dont like to ask others for help unless ive done all the research and still cant find an answer. i find that if i figure it out myself, ill remember it better and have a better understanding for future photos. But thats why we have a Newbie forum, if you dont want to see the threads, dont enter.


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## ZedU54 (Sep 30, 2007)

...I like to figure out things for myself, too, and usually I do fairly well, but I am also a firm believer in the concept of 'when all else fails, read the directions'...I will at least pull out the manual (if I have it) and look at it before I start playing with something...especially if it looks like something you could easily make a royal mess of if you don't know what you're doing...


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## Garbz (Sep 30, 2007)

No one "reads" manuals. That really is not normal. TLTownsend is right they are boring. But they are great references and there's an index in the back which is much faster than asking obvious technical questions on the forum.

ZedU54 if you want to try some real esoteric German check out the Swiss . I could listen and laugh at them speak German all day.


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## bellavita64 (Oct 2, 2007)

New to the sight and this is my first post, so please cut me some slack. I'm the artistic and slightly technically deficient type too. The manual has some good info, but there were some questions I had that it just seemed too vague on. You had to flip back and forth between several sections, and neither section really seemed to tell me how to do things. I stumbled on to the Digital Field Guide for my Nikon D80 and it was such a huge help! It is bigger (ie big print for my over-40 eyesight) and all pages are in full color with lots of pictures instead of little line drawings. I have learned so much more about the camera's capabilities. If the manufacturer's manual works for you, that's great! But if you are still scratching your head after reading your dog-eared manual for the fifth time, the I strongly encourage you to get a Digital Field Guide. I bought mine at overstock.com for about $13. Probably some of the best money I have spent. The author was David D. Busch and the publisher is Wiley. They also make them for some Canon models.


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## Miaow (Oct 2, 2007)

Not all manuals actually go into detail on what things do or how to use the settings to the best advantage etc (well the little booklet with mine didnt anyway lol)  BUT it's not hard to search out info on something - either via a search engine or the search on this site.  I think some people just dont like searching sometimes.....


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## Chris of Arabia (Oct 2, 2007)

Miaow said:


> I think some people just dont like searching sometimes.....


 
Which kind of leaves me wondering how they ever found this place.

As an aside to those who find manuals difficult to read, how does a computer screen make it any easier? After all, it's the same basic skill set required; assemble a few letters into words, sentences and paragraphs and so on, scan left to right, or am I missing something?


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## Mike_E (Oct 2, 2007)

LOL  Are we having fun yet kids?

OK, Everybody try this:  Take a coin out of you pocket or where ever you keep them and place it on the desk or table in front of you.

Now, pretend the coin is a button.

Now, push the button.

Push it again.

Did it move?  Or were you pushing it from the top down?  

Sometimes the obvious answer is not the best answer and sometimes we simply lack the proper vocabulary to visualize a solution.

So, keep helping and maybe somebody you respond to will help you out of a ditch some day.


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## Alex_B (Oct 2, 2007)

Garbz said:


> No one "reads" manuals. That really is not normal.



Whatch out what you say boy!  I sometimes read manuals of things I do not even own or use 

.. on very rare occasions.

Never read my camera's manual though. think I opened it about four times.


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## Garbz (Oct 2, 2007)

Acedemics don't count


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