# Canon Shooters: the 5d3 specs as of yesterday... what do you think?



## MLeeK (Dec 6, 2011)

I've been waiting on the announcement of the 5d mark III and hoping for some major improvements... After reading the latest from Canon Rumors... I am thinking I probably will jump ship if this is really what Canon is doing... 
"Two different pieces of information put the camera above 30mp. I get the  idea there is more than one sensor being put through the paces.It will not have a pro AF system. It was suggested by one person that  the AF will actually be a lesser version of the 7D autofocus system. The  camera would not have a crazy frame per second rating, something in the  3-4fps range like the current 5D Mark II. It will be equipped with the  DIGIC 5+ processor and be aimed at high megapixel/high ISO performance.  The 5D Mark III will not be the 4K Cinema EOS prototype Canon previously announced was in development. There were no details given about the video functionality of the camera."
-canonrumors.com

The focus system is my main complaint on the 5d2. Why would they give a better focus system in their lesser 7D and not in the higher 5D3??? 
Not really impressed. As much as Nikon doesn't fit me right I am thinking they are more photographer oriented and less sales driven by that damn megapixel number. 
I am really disappointed at this... Hopefully it's only rumor and they will do something good.


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## o hey tyler (Dec 6, 2011)

MLeeK said:


> The focus system is my main complaint on the 5d2. Why would they give a better focus system in their lesser 7D and not in the higher 5D3???



Because It would drive cost up more than likely. The 7D is geared very strongly towards sports and action shooters, high FPS, 19-Cross Type focus points, dual Digic 4's, etc. It's also an APS-C camera, so it has more value in terms of having a high resolution image without having to crop. The 5D series has always been for more portrait, or landscape photographers that want the benefits of having a full frame camera, and those are far less autofocus demanding then shooting sports. I'm not going to disagree that the 5D line has a less than stellar AF system. But I almost don't think 9 cross type focus points would be unreasonable while still managing cost. Would I be upset if they put out a more robust version of the 7D's AF system? Certainly not. It's just dependent if the package is worth the coin. 

As for the Megapixel Count? I think Canon gets a little horny over it, but I'll wait to see what the image quality is like.


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## camz (Dec 6, 2011)

It's an old marketing strategy. Canon's flagship new 1Dx series supposedly coming out in March of 2012 is their whopper. It's no different then what we see on our wedding packages. Our highest package, the whopper is going to be usually far fetched where the middle and lower package will split up the flagship or whopper characteristics - split up between the 7D and 5D. The middle package is where clients are led to default too. It's where the middle packages typically leave us hanging - they don't give us everything. But they want to produce in volume

In the digital era of Canon there are only 3 bodies that they released which I was content about. The 20D, Original 5D and 7D.


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## GeorgieGirl (Dec 6, 2011)

I am convinced that (since I have a 7D) that the next FF Canon is going to have to be the same as the 7D but in a FF format in order for me to buy it. It can be less the video, but that's it. I dont need more MP. If this does not occur with a FF Canon release at a reasonable price, I will go with a Nikon FF and will happily run two cameras. 

In contemplating a FF with Canon I will still need one short zoom to replace the EF-S 17-55, so that is a given for me to factor in a new lens. I can buy a Nikon FF and a short zoom to get me started and I'm even with $$$ more or less for a FF and a lens. I don't see myself using the FF as much for long range as much as for portrait and landscape.

I have this much figured out so far. I'm content to let it all play out with Canon. I know what I want and I beleive I have good options if Canon drops the ball.


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## bentcountershaft (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't like the sound of it, but until it's confirmed I'm not gonna *****.  Either way it's a gonna a more than a little bit before it comes out.


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## Big Mike (Dec 7, 2011)

> The focus system is my main complaint on the 5d2. Why would they give a better focus system in their lesser 7D and not in the higher 5D3???


Because then it would likely cannibalize sales of their 1D & 1Ds models.  (and future 1Dx).  

I'm curious about where they will go with the MP count on the sensor.  There are probably people who would be interested in a 30MP DSLR, but that's getting too high IMO.  
It's interesting to see that their new flagship, the 1Dx, is only 18 MP.  I, like many, took this to be a sign that the MP race was finally over and done with....maybe not.


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## MLeeK (Dec 7, 2011)

I think the reasoning on the 1dx being at 18 and the 5d3 at 30 has more to do with marketing... They are trying more and more to aim that 5d at the previous 20d, 40d, 50d shooters. The ones that still look for MP as a spec in their camera. Just thoughts on my part, but they've been reducing the position and abilities of their cameras to re-align the Rebels with Nikon's d3100 and d5100 and then the 60D to meet with what was the D90. They shoved in the 7D to cover what the 60D used to and now the 5d line is going to fall in there to be more of a pro-sumer full frame. Or at least that is how it feels. 
It seems as if they are trying to shove people up to that $8k camera if they want real performance of ANY if these specs are true. I don't know as there is much wisdom in that with the current economy. It's pushing those of us who need a strong focus system either down to the 7D or off to Nikon. I can't complain about my 7D. I am impressed with it. 
The pricing on the 1d4? Well, at least you'll be able to find a few used ones when those of us with more money than God upgrade.


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## Overread (Dec 7, 2011)

Meh Canon Rumours still keep confirming a new 100-400mm almost every year  at least once or twice  


As for the specs, the 7D wasn't lumped in to replace what the 60D did its was when they split the XXD line into a lower and upper band; it was probably a good move for those of us who are serious and want the better AF without having to go for the 1D series. The 7D let us get that better AF (at a higher cost) whilst Canon preserved a lower cost option to replace the XXD line in the 60D. 

But yes canon marketing are very aggressive at defending their products from each other


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## GooniesNeverSayDie11 (Dec 7, 2011)

The 1dx is only going to be 18MP because of the 12FPS. They have trouble getting the sensor to "Recycle" fast enough. That is why the 1d Mark IV was a 1.3x APS-H with 10FPS and the 1ds was a Full-framer but only had 5FPS. I think by lowering the megapixels, in addition to the new Digic 5+, they were able to achieve the 12FPS. That is also going to be a distinguishing factor for the 5D. I don't think they can physically make a 20-30MP Full-Framed camera push above 5 or 6 FPS. So its destined to be a slower, high-res, high ISO camera. Why bother giving it a huge AF upgrade that increases the cost even more, and a slow FPS?


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## gsgary (Dec 7, 2011)

What a load of ********


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## Derrel (Dec 7, 2011)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> >>SNIP>> It seems as if they are trying to shove people up to that $8k camera if they want real performance of ANY if these specs are true. I don't know as there is much wisdom in that with the current economy. It's pushing those of us who need a strong focus system either down to the 7D or off to Nikon. I can't complain about my 7D.



It does seem as if Canon has been trying to force the hand of its users; it has been several years now that Nikon's D700 has offered a strong AF system and pro-type features in a half-height body to which a grip can be added for better balance with pro-weight lenses, or when shooting lots of talls,etc.. When the D700 came out against the original Canon 5D, a lot of Canon users said that Canon needed to come out with a "D700 type" body--but Canon has not done that yet. People can theorize all they want, but the fact of the matter is the 5D series has not been a big, high-volume seller. The sales numbers of these $2,699 to $3,199 5D models (at various times) are nowhere near,not even close, to the sales numbers of the $499 to $799 Best Buy models. Canon makes most of its sales where every other maker in the d-slr segment does--at the introductory, lower, and mid-level segments. The people who have bought the 5D and 5D-II (which includes ME, for example, at $3899 with 24-105-4/IS USM L zoom in kit box form) have been aware of what it was they were buying: a LOW-cost FULL-FRAME Canon. At one time, FF d-slr meant Canon 1Ds at $7999. Seems to me that the 5D-II is doing just fine, as it stands.

It's just like the film scanner business: the manufacturers are not interested in dropping the price, nor are they interested or able to accept lower profit margin on this "class" of product...computer CD burners for example, used to be VERY expensive, and then the prices were lowered, and after 5 years, the technology became so,so cheap that one can buy a CD burner for $40 these days. But FILM SCANNERS, for the most part, never did fall into that race to the bottom price category, at least from the major names like Minolta, Canon,and Nikon. The flatbed document scanner was in-between; the industry held the line on prices for a long,long time, and then slowly allowed scanner prices to drop. The way I see the full-frame 5D segment is this: Canon wants to make profit on a low-volume seller. They need to keep the core costs down, and make sure the sensor and electronics deliver good image quality. Frame Rate  and AF system are secondary concerns,secondary to earning fair profit at low sales and low manufacturing volumes. The absolutely MINIMAL amount of new R&D and no new core features except one, between the 5D and the 5D-II, show that Canon's 5D is sort of a placeholder, and if you want REALLY ADVANCED FEATURES, you need to buy a 1-series. Or buy a Nikon. Or buy a Canon 7D and live with APS-C and 1.6x issues.

Do not be confused by the high # of TPF hard-cores who own a 5D, they are excessively influential and vocal, compared with the Rebel and XXD set. Sales figures of all the $2,000-$3400 are very low compared with the $1,499 and lower-priced bodies. The split-off of the XX-D line with the 60D makes me wonder if there might also be a 5D split, into say a 3D. I think Nikon's D700 follow-up could be a real key toward where Canon heads with the 5D-II's successor. Also, I think Canon is waiting to see how the 1DX's 18-MP FF sensor is received by the marketplace and the various segments. We should be in for some interesting times in the next 18 months.


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## MLeeK (Dec 7, 2011)

I am a 5d2 owner and I have found that it is a very specific camera-specifically good for portraits and weddings and good light-or those able to use that center point to focus on everything. If these specs come to light? It's not a wise investment for me. The 7D is a much better investment-it can do more. 
I'd love to have better high ISO handling even though my 7D is able to be used all of the way thru 12800 AND has the focus system-those test images from the 1dX are making me so incredibly jealous and my brain is just running at a million miles per hour at the possibilities it opens up... 
If the 5D3 has any of that technology? I am going to cry over the darned focus system. 
Maybe Magic Lantern will come up with an upgrade for it? doubtful that it will help the focus system though.


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## Rephargotohp (Dec 7, 2011)

I think that IS the point of why there are two thoughts on the Priority of having one focus system over the other and being camera specific. Why put a focus sysrtem and that expense on a camera that will be used mostly with just the center point?  The bettter Focus systems realy only come into play if you need to use focus tracking, Sports, Wildlife Photojournalistic Wedding.

I almost never use it, in fact 1/2 the time I don't even use AF. so why would I want my money put towards something I wouldn't use?

and that IS why they make the 7D. For people that have other needs. If you shoot sports, Wildlife, Photojournalistic weddings etc. NEED the better AF syetem. Then the 7D is probably the camera you want.

They aren't going to put everything into one camera at that price point. Then what would be the ned for the 1DX?


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## gsgary (Dec 7, 2011)

My 5D mk1 never misses focus because i use it for what it is best at, anything that moves i use my 1D's, but i would sell my misses for an M9 and the auto focus on it it awful  for a £5000 camera


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## bentcountershaft (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't think I'm alone in wanting basically a D700 with an EF mount.  I don't need the 1D focus system or really even the 7D's, but I'd like to have a bit more versatility in camera before spending $2700 on it.  I could even settle for the same layout 9 point it has now if they were all cross type.   I've just about convinced myself to switch to Nikon but I've been waiting to see what direction they go with the 5D3 and I'm growing impatient.


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## Rephargotohp (Dec 7, 2011)

I really don't think Nikon has all the answers either. The only camera in their line that meets my needs is the D3x and I don't have 8 Friggin thousand dollars


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## Big Mike (Dec 7, 2011)

> I don't think I'm alone in wanting basically a D700 with an EF mount.





> a lot of Canon users said that Canon needed to come out with a "D700 type" body


Amen.  

A point of clarification, the 5DmkII has the 9 AF points, but it also has 6 additional 'AF Assist Points' that surround the centre point, for the purpose of helping you to track your subject while in AI Servo mode.  

But yes, after using the 5DmkII for a couple months now, I'm am finding that I wish the AF worked better.  I'd like to do more testing, but I ran into a problem while using a Tamron 28-75mm F2.8 and it wouldn't focus with some of the peripheral points, on what I thought was a spot with enough contrast.  Granted, it was a low light situation...but I don't think my 20D would have had a problem.  

And of course, both 5D models basically have the same size AF point layout as the crop bodies...it hasn't been enlarged to cover the bigger sensor/viewfinder.  Hopefully that is something that gets fixed.


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## Derrel (Dec 7, 2011)

Canon 5D in portrait orientation








Nikon D2x in portrait orientation

In terms of "strength" or "capability" of the AF module...the number of points does not seem to be as important as how well 1) the system actually works and 2)how well users can make it work and 3) AF coverage for the types of uses the camra is put to use in shooting.

The Canon 1D Mark III was touted by Canon as the best-ever AF system. Best EVER. Before the camera hit the streets. But it was  a massive failure in many situations, with as some speculated, simply too much information for the camera's CPU to process. The AF system was very sketchy...it simply did not focus well, in the hands of pro sports shooters, and amateurs alike. Canon took a page from Nikon, and developed a NEW, color-aware AF and metering system for the 7D...and it seems to have payed off. The Canon 5D had the AF system of the crop-body 20D and 30D simply "dropped into" an EOS Elan 7-type body...in other words, the 5D got the AF system layout and SIZE/SPACING of a crop-frame camera...far too centrally weighted for using off-center AF points under demanding situations.

The Nikon D2x had a 11-point AF system developed exclusively for the D2 series with the 1.5x APS-C sensor size, and it has what some call a "wide-area AF" system. The easiest way to use the D2x for action is to set it so that there are FOUR AF points in use at one time, in a "Group AF" pattern; the center AF patch is always used, then the three top AF patches also are used. In center-area, the center patch is in use, as well as the three surrounding patches. In real-world use, what this means is that the camera can absolutely NAIL FOCUS on "talls",even on running subjects or other fast-moving, off-center targets, and also, indoors in low light, the camera can simply lock-on the focus--where in the SAME lighting conditions, the 5D simply cannot be relied upon to nearly the same degree...especially with FAST lenses like the 50/1.4 or 85/1.8 or 135/2, shot wide-open and at indoor distances, or on moving targets.

It sounds good that the 5D has 9 AF points, plus what Canon calls the "six invisible AF assist points"--but the reality as I see it is that they needed to change the DIAMOND pattern and put more AF patches at the edges of the frame...there is basically ONE, SINGLE AF point in use when the camera is in tall orientation, and it is not where it "ought to be", which is a bit more toward the edges of the frame. THe real issue is that the 5D and 5D-II have the AF pattern SIZE and LAYOUT from a 7-year old, 20D camera...

BTW, most Nikon users of the newer cameras with the 51-point AF systems (D300,D700,D3 series) have found that 9-point "group" AF is the preferred way to get the most-reliable AF on challenging,moving subjects...which is basically, an area of the same size as the D2-series AF system used in its 4-patch peripheral or 5-patch center-weighted AF, basic  "Group AF points" mode. Others prefer the 11-point group in the D300,D700,and D3 bodies..

The "peripheral point" issue Big Mike mentioned is really the weakest spot of the 5D AF system, in my experience...the smaller-than-appropriate, 20D/30D AF system is really just NOT up to the task on a FF sized imaging area if one wants to be able to focus using the outer AF point...the problem is it is basically a single point...if it were "points", it would be different. This highly-centralized AF point concentration weakness becomes even worse with slower-aperture lenses,or in poor light. The issue is that a modern AF system needs a SECOND point of reference,many times...MORE DATA can be used to track movement,and to do a comparative analysis. Measuring one,single point gives only ONE point of data...two points is double the data, and so on. This is why that single edge point FAILS so many time to get an AF lock...

Another thing too: there are MULTIPLE ways to utilize the AF points in any system, and the 5D series does not have a "four-speed transmission" type AF system,nor even a "three-speed" shifter the way the action-oriented Nikons do. AF can be dynamic AF, dynamic AF with closest subject priority,user-selectable group AF, FAST-release-to-new target, or SLOW-release to new target (AKA the horribly named "Lock-ON timing,user-settable),and so on. The D2 series had the "four-speed" AF selector switch on the back, PLUS the SIngle- and Continuous (AKA Ai Servo in Canon language) menu settings...the 5D is a very SIMPLIFIED AF system in terms of what it can do...Nikon users found the "4-speed" + menu + AF-S and AF-C system too complicated, so Nikon reduced the four-position option to TWO + AUTO area on the D300,D700,and D3 series cameras, and boosted the total AF point number to 51 points, with variable-size active point numbers, user selectable.

Again...what actual cameras have shown is that it's not the "number" of points that counts. It is how well the system works, in the real world. COLOR-aware focusing helps the cameras track moving subjects. Cutting down on the number of active AF points can actually HELP track better (9- or 11-point AF out of 51 is what most Nikon users like on the new bodies...I preferred 4 of 11 on the D2x). This whole "diamond right in the center" that the 5D bodies inherited from the 20D and 30D is a sub-par system. It badly needs EDGE and PERIPHERY coverage added to it. The real problem I see is that so,so many Canon users are old and stodgy and cannot let go and embrace anything but using the center AF point..but then again, Canon has seemingly demonstrated repeated difficulty in getting multi-Area AF to work "right". I used single-point AF almost exclusively until I learned that there were times when it failed--miserably and consistently--but that a multi-point AF approach could nail focus on high-speed action almost all the time...

Sorry for the long post, but this is an issue I've looked at a lot over the past five years, since 2005 actually. The challenge today is learning how your AF system works in theory, and then learning how to use it in the real world. Honestly, I think the 7D is the FIRST Canon to have a truly workable, modern, multi-point AF system...it's a color-aware system,like Nikon has been using for years now...I think the 5D-Three would benefit from a bit higher "aim" from an engineering standpoint.


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## MLeeK (Dec 7, 2011)

Derrel, you have said much of what I am thinking and feeling in an excellent reply that also includes the explanations as to why I see and feel what I do with the 5D2. 

I really have just come to not like the camera in recent months. Why? Because I can only use it in limited situations and for the $2500 I have invested in it I should be able to use it as well as my 7D. I cannot trust it's focus system if the lighting conditions are low or low contrast and I have to be sure I am using that center point in those conditions-not my style here. What to do? I default to my 7D because I can trust it. 
For portraits? It's an awesome camera HOWEVER... I am also controlling my portraits exposure, lighting, etc so what are the added benefits of full frame doing for me? Not much. 
In a church? It does make me nervous if the light is low and I am working with any of the outside focus points. I grab the other cam if it's a critical shot and make sure I am either getting it with both or that I can trust the focus. Which is kind of defeating the purpose of why I wanted the 5d2-low light churches where the added benefit of full frame is much needed. 
Don't get me wrong, I am using it and I am not missing focus in probably 90% of everything I shoot. It's a beautiful camera with great quality output and I love that. I could even shoot sports with it if I had to. I just really feel for the money invested I should be able to trust it's focus system far better than I do. 

I also know that in the past couple of years I have become biased as more of a sports shooter and I approach shooting a wedding and even portraits to an extent much the same as sports so that is also clouding my opinions a bit when it comes to weddings and other things. It's also causing me to shoot differently for weddings than I used to-which is probably causing my problems with focus when I have them... Vicious circle there. I have seriously changed my style of shooting since I purchased that camera.


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## gsgary (Dec 7, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Canon 5D in portrait orientation
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can't put the D2x up against the 5D, my old 1Dmk1 used to piss all over my friends D2x


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## xzoup (Dec 30, 2011)

Patience is good in photography, If experience has taught me anything, it has taught me not to get in a hurry to spend my money. The cameras of our concerns will be there tomorrow unless we go first, and then they will still be there.


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## belial (Dec 30, 2011)

As of the 27th canon rumors are now claiming it won't get the 30 mp sensor but a similar 18 mp sensor to the 1d series. I saw no mention about autofocus. Probably best not to speculate before its formally announced


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