# How Important is ...



## abraxas (Nov 7, 2008)

Encouragement?

We've done critique ad nauseam--So, let's look at how important is encouragement, or lack thereof in your development as a photographer?


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## JerryPH (Nov 7, 2008)

For the people of weaker personalities, little to no knowledge or low self esteem... it is CRITICAL that they receive it as regularly as a junkie get's their fix.  For the people that are independent, strong and have a good self-image... it is as useless as a bad critique.

For the majority, it's somewhere in the middle between these two.


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## abraxas (Nov 7, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> For the people of weaker personalities, little to no knowledge or low self esteem... it is CRITICAL that they receive it as regularly as a junkie get's their fix.  For the people that are independent, strong and have a good self-image... it is as useless as a bad critique.
> 
> For the majority, it's somewhere in the middle between these two.



No Jerry, you misunderstood, *how important is it to you?*


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## craig (Nov 7, 2008)

For me it is very important. I find it helpful in my development as an artist. All of the great critiques that I have received have ended in encouragement by the crit giver. Or I have walked away with self encouragement. 

Love & Bass


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## JerryPH (Nov 7, 2008)

abraxas said:


> No Jerry, you misunderstood, *how important is it to you?*



Sorry!    :lmao:
I definitely fall into the "useless as a bad critique" category.  If someone says something, I will accept it politely, but I need absolutely zero encouragement in not just photography, but in anything that I do in life.  I can fly through the good times, and pretty easily push through the hard times when others need someone to egg or cheer them on.

That said, in my personal life, with friends and family, I am the first one to pat them on the shoulder and say "well done!" or "that's ok, you'll get it next time, tiger!".


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## invisible (Nov 7, 2008)

To me encouragement is key, which is why I've always assumed that it's important to every "advanced beginner" like me.


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## skieur (Nov 7, 2008)

Not important to me at all.  For me the purpose of critique is to see whether others notice the same good points and bad points that I see in the photo.  If they missed something major, then that reduces the value of their critique accordingly.  Occasionally, they spot something that I missed and that makes it very worthwhile. 

skieur


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## rubbertree (Nov 7, 2008)

for me it's not all that important, though of course it's always nice to hear that people appreciate your work. I'm a pretty private person though and don't like posting too much stuff. However, I have an amateur photographer friend who thrives on encouragement and praise, she seems desperate for it. I mean, I do not need to see pictures of your supper or your kids doing their homework, yet, she likes to show people with the obvious intent of getting praise on the photography.


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## christopher walrath (Nov 8, 2008)

I don't require encouragement and the criticism I respond ot most is my own.  All I need is film and fixer.


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## Joves (Nov 8, 2008)

Dont really need it myself. I have had to be totally independent since I was young so that may have something to do with that.


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## abraxas (Nov 9, 2008)

craig said:


> For me it is very important. I find it helpful in my development as an artist. All of the great critiques that I have received have ended in encouragement by the crit giver. Or I have walked away with self encouragement.
> 
> Love & Bass





invisible said:


> To me encouragement is key, which is why I've always assumed that it's important to every "advanced beginner" like me.



It's good that a couple see the value in encouragement in positive development.  I find encouragement motivational.  I believe I do my best work in a positive frame of mind rather than considering negative criticisms and their sources. No psychodrama, statistical analysis or hoodoo to it, just free creativity and expression.  I also think that encouragement opens the door to discussion of artistic expression with peers.


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## CrazyEye (Nov 9, 2008)

It depends.   Sometimes I feel full of creativity and love to shoot just to shoot.  At other times, if I'm in a slump and someone praises your photos it is feels great.  To see someone's eyes light up when they talk about your photography is very rewarding and motivating.


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## Battou (Nov 9, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Encouragement?



It's overrated....tell everyone they suck, they'll get better or dissapear.


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## Mike_E (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm not as radical as Battou but, eh.

It's my vision that I'm trying to get across so when I'm finally happy with it- it's done.

I do like seeing the reaction my photos bring to other people from time to time.  This requires my being there when they are first seen but I have little time for people to find something to say about a range of emotions they experienced and had to let pass.  

We all exist in the moment, we all have our own unique blends of emotional range and contrast so to pontificate on our own experiences and expect other unique individuals to feel the same way seems to me to be a waste of breath.


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## benhasajeep (Nov 9, 2008)

For me I think I am beyond the point that I need it to keep going.  I do appreciate it when recieved.  But its not soemthing I really need.  Obviously I have some pride when someone says they like my stuff, or a little anger when it's trashed.  But I have been doing photography as a hobby / entertainment for long enough now.  That I really don't show alot to others anymore.  I kind of do it, just to do it type of thing.  I really like to try new techniques out.  Maybe play with different type of camera.

My wife on the other hand who is still learning.  And gets frustrated quite a bit.  I give her lots of encouragement.  And I can see it helps her.


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## Battou (Nov 10, 2008)

Mike_E said:


> I'm not as radical as Battou but, eh.



I'm not radical, I was just in one of those moods where I felt the need to be an ass hole...but anywho...

___________________________________________
I do like to see comments on my Photo threads, be they good or bad. To me it's an indicator that it has been seen, that is all I want, As a Spam bot I kinda need that. Never the less I do believe in "my camera, my vision, my way" you don't like it so be it....And STFU about the niose in my imagery....


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## LaFoto (Nov 10, 2008)

I've been taking photos for more than 35 years now, so - while still only an amateur - I can no longer present myself as a newbie to the hobby.

However, I still find encouragement pleasing. And inspiring.
And it is encouragement, more than critique, that spurns creativity inside me.

That said, and keeping Battou's words in mind, I'd much sooner just disappear than get better if I were only told that I suck.

And I am definitely NOT the kind of person as was described by Jerry, with a weaker personality, no knowledge and a low self-esteem! But I like encouragement and feel it carries me farther, all the same!


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## Kegger (Nov 10, 2008)

I like the encouragement that people give me for the work I do. Even more so from other photographers, praise without understanding the medium is kind of pointless. 

One of my favorite kinds of encouragement is in PP, when I don't have to touch the exposure slider, fill, or blacks sliders, I get stoked. Cuz technically it means that I grasp what I'm doing to an extent that I can do it quite regularly now. But having to slide them anywhere brings me down a peg or two, though I quickly bounce back.


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## Jon0807 (Nov 10, 2008)

As far as photography goes, or anything artistic that I do, I don't really need encouragement to succeed.  I would say that I would need more critique than encouragement if I'm unsure how to do something or if I know I've done something wrong and need to know how to improve.  But then again there's a difference between critique and just plain being rude.  The only praise I'd look for is if my work were actually for someone and I would hope that they were happy with my work.  If it were for me only and it came out the way I like it then that's all that really matters to me.  But we all need an ego boost every now and then 

But with other aspects of my life I would say that encouragement is needed at times but not important.  I usually find it in myself to either push harder or just plain fail.  But when I do get encouraged, it often times gives me that extra oomph to try just that much harder to succeed.


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## DRoberts (Nov 10, 2008)

Sometimes it limits my creativity. If someone really praises a shot for its artistic style, rather than technical quality, I have a tendency to get stuck in a redundent rut of that style. I know I have done that and try not to let myself fall into that anymore. Still, that is the one trap of encouragement that I would warn others of.


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## abraxas (Nov 10, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> ...
> 
> And I am definitely NOT the kind of person as was described by Jerry, with a weaker personality, no knowledge and a low self-esteem! But I like encouragement and feel it carries me farther, all the same!



He just thinks he knows what he's talking about- I suspect it's part of what appears to be excessive OCPD.

I believe after a certain point, critique becomes an excercise in negativity, which sadly enough, many become addicted to either giving or receiving.  The concentration is on the negative rather than positive growth.


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## usayit (Nov 10, 2008)

Not really important to me.... as someone who sees photography as a hobby.  I find enjoyment in photography regardless but I do appreciate it when it is offered.  Encouragement from those I know personally is far more valuable.  

If I were a professional trying to start a photography business, yes.. I think encouragement would be very helpful to get through the tough start of any new business.


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## SilverGlow (Nov 12, 2008)

Those that NEED encouragement often don't have the inner strength and fortitude to acheive in the arts. To NEED encouragement is to try to fill a void from external sources. That need should be filled from WITHIN.

Those that NEED encouragement often still need a mommy and daddy emotionally. It is a character flaw.

Ansel Adams, Paul Strand, Alfred Steiglitz, Henri Cartier-Bresson, and many other masters had an inner drive, an inner source, a blind ambition. And often their early work was past off as boolsheet. What others thought was of little consequence to them. 

Encouragement in and of it's self is not a bad thing. I like encouragement, but the difference is is that I don't NEED it.

It is sad to see adults that need a surragate mommy or daddy to talk them into their photography. They make mistakes and they go off and pout, some even cry, hoping someone will rescue them.

What these weak individuals refuse to understand is that it is actually the burning criticism, the unvarnished truth, that can be the most valuable "encouragement" one can receive. My first few weddings were absolute sheet. The pro I asked to critique my work gave me the raw naked truth about my comps: "these comps are absolute craaap...what were you thinking...". 

Now I could've reacted in two different ways: Go away and pout and hope my girlfriend or mommy or daddy would "rescue" me and tell me that that pro dude is an "A-hole" and that my work is "supreme, awesome, and wonderful". Or, I could take trhe pro's words to heart and be objective about it and try to find the truth that may be in his words. I chose the latter and feel better for it.

If you are an adult and reading this, don't be needy ;-) Encourage yourself because it's nobody elses job to do that but yours.


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## MikeBcos (Nov 12, 2008)

It doesn't matter to me, I love photography but I am more of a recorder than a photographer, I record life and places around me. If I get a photograph I think is good I may show it off, if people don't agree that it is good that is no big deal, I recorded the image for my pleasure and for future generations to see life as I saw it, compositional perfection is rarely my goal.


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## kundalini (Nov 12, 2008)

Seems like a lot of bravado is being slung about.


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## Jon0807 (Nov 12, 2008)

as well as some demeaning rhetoric :roll:


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## SilverGlow (Nov 12, 2008)

kundalini said:


> Seems like a lot of bravado is being slung about.


 

Yes lots of bravado.  The type often found in successful people.  Some call it "blind ambition", others "burning in the bossom".  It's the kind of bravado that most self-made millionaires had when their first 2, 4 or 7 enterprises failed.  Donald Trump had so much bravado that he went from riches, to poverty to riches to poverty to riches.  Bravado allowed Prince to turn his noise into million dollar income. Bravado kept me in the wedding game long after my 5th sucky wedding.  When everyone else thought I should get out of that business, bravado kept me in and in time it paid off.  

For nearly every successful man or woman, there is often a long, long history of failures.

If you call belief in one's self "bravado" so be it and I plead guilty ;-)


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## abraxas (Nov 12, 2008)

kundalini said:


> Seems like a lot of bravado is being slung about.



I believe so too.



SilverGlow said:


> Those that NEED encouragement often don't have the inner strength and fortitude to acheive in the arts. To NEED encouragement is to try to fill a void from external sources. That need should be filled from WITHIN.
> 
> Those that NEED encouragement often still need a mommy and daddy emotionally. It is a character flaw.
> 
> ...



Sheesh, I just asked if it were important in your development, not for a detailed rationalization of your bitterness.

So let me see if I got you straight on this, encouragement is nothing and it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks anyway, well, unless it's a critique and you're given negative feedback, then it matters, and anyone that doesn't care to think the way you think is needy?

A simple "no" would have sufficed, but obviously you needed to talk that one out a bit.


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## SilverGlow (Nov 12, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I believe so too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps in your case I should have simply posted a picture.  Too bad you don't tolerate other views.  I would suggest college.  It can teach one how to hold adult conversations.

Have a blessed evening ;-)


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## LaFoto (Nov 13, 2008)

I stick to my initial statement: encouragement just feels good. 
This does not say whether I need it, or that negative criticism would make me run home to mummy with my dollies, but it feels nice, and I am CONVINCED that most who post their photos online on a forum such as this one deep down inside HOPE for someone to come by and say they like this and that and that about their photos! 
For, indeed, that is merely HUMAN.


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## kundalini (Nov 13, 2008)

SilverGlow said:


> Yes lots of bravado.


I'll go with the short version here.

bra-va-do [br_uh_-*vah*-doh]
_&#8211;noun, plural _*-does, -dos.* 
a pretentious, swaggering display of courage.


Encouragement is a key element to spur us on to improve, whether in our chosen profession, self interests or our humanity. The lack of consciously recognizing it does not diminish its affect on us, but may abate the growth process.

This has little to do with self determination and the success/failure ratio as you describe.


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## Chiller (Nov 13, 2008)

I think it is important either way....to give it, or recieve it. Encouragement can always be a positive thing.


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## third_shift|studios (Nov 13, 2008)

I do more graphic design then photography. It always pissed me off when clients would go on and on about one iota of the design they didn't like. Then when the piece is complete they are just like "k, thanks, bye!"


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## abraxas (Nov 13, 2008)

SilverGlow said:


> Perhaps in your case I should have simply posted a picture.  Too bad you don't tolerate other views.  I would suggest college.  It can teach one how to hold adult conversations.
> 
> Have a blessed evening ;-)



*SliverGrow;*

You had me at first with the separating wants and needs, etc, but your childish attitude toward those who think other than you do shows how much you probably could have used some encouragement at a critical moment or two somewhere along the line.  I _encourage_ you to seek counseling.  It may teach you tolerance of others and help you overcome your personality disorder.

Please, post a picture.  Show us what you got.  Sparkle.  Put it out there and we can have a look at what your blind ambition (teared rage?) has spewed forth.


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## SilverGlow (Nov 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> *SliverGrow;*
> 
> You had me at first with the separating wants and needs, etc, but your childish attitude toward those who think other than you do shows how much you probably could have used some encouragement at a critical moment or two somewhere along the line. I _encourage_ you to seek counseling. It may teach you tolerance of others and help you overcome your personality disorder.
> 
> Please, post a picture. Show us what you got. Sparkle. Put it out there and we can have a look at what your blind ambition (teared rage?) has spewed forth.


 
Little man. I'm not your mommy so go whine to someone else. So go off and pout, you needy little monkey-man.


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## abraxas (Nov 13, 2008)

SliverGrow said:


> Little man. I'm not your mommy so go whine to someone else. So go off and pout, you needy little monkey-man.



Everyone,

Now that we've successfully captured and pinned a specimen, I suggest we pass it around the room and consider the consequences of not maintaining a healthy balance in our art (as it may be), including encouragement. As it truly takes "all kinds", we'll now be tagging SliverGrow and releasing it back into the wild.  Be sure to use the sanitizer and wipe your hands carefully before leaving the thread please.


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## invisible (Nov 13, 2008)

Hopefully a mod will see this mess and throw out the garbage.


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## skieur (Nov 13, 2008)

Hawaii Five-O said:


> Stop contradicting yourself with those statements. You say encouragement is not important ,but yet you still want "feedback" on points which tell you if your doing something right or not. Which then helps you progress, in essence, is still encouragement.
> 
> 
> These type of threads really bring out peoples' true colors, which turns out to be really depressing i this one. Dang it people, come off your plateaus back down to humanity. Its ok to be human.


 
Let me re-phrase that.  My background is far from average, so I view things differently.  It is valuable for me to gain a different perspective even though only a few comments may be insightful.  I don't necessarily agree with either positive or negative comments. What I value is knowledgeable and well-thought out critique.

skieur


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## kundalini (Nov 13, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Everyone,


 

At least it's fair and *balanced*.


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## Chiller (Nov 13, 2008)

invisible said:


> Hopefully a mod will see this mess and throw out the garbage.


 
Sort of goes back to what I had mentioned in another thread.... 

"The only thing I will mention that I think would really help , is more visible mods. People who can step in on the attitudes and crap, before the threads go too far. I feel if people want to get into an in depth conversation or heated debate, take it to pms (not p m s ) :lmao: But those threads that contain one of these debates that get started, should be warned before it gets out of hand. Someone to come in and say...quit it now. I know the existing mods try, but with a forum this size, there is a lot of babysitting to do. "  

Anyways...I hope they see it too.


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## craig (Nov 13, 2008)

SilverGlow said:


> Little man. I'm not your mommy so go whine to someone else. So go off and pout, you needy little monkey-man.



Whoa there toughguy... Because of you I trust this once well thought out thread will be closed. Before it is I would like to publicly express my thoughts on your comments.

Are you on glue! Are you human and or have you ever dealt with humans? That kind of ignorant reply makes me think that you are nothing more then a machine made to spew hatred.

Please keep in mind for future use: TPF's strength comes from free flowing ideas. Good bad or indifferent we all (try to) keep an open mind. Clearly you have no interest in that basic concept.

On a personal note. I consider Abraxass a master of photography and above all a friend. **** with him and you **** with the whole trailer park.

No love & Bass to you


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## terri (Nov 13, 2008)

SilverGlow said:


> Little man. I'm not your mommy so go whine to someone else. So go off and pout, you needy little monkey-man.


Completely uncalled for. 

Please check your PM's, thanks.


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## Jon0807 (Nov 13, 2008)

Hmm...put someone on ignore and reported a post all in one session.  What an eventful evening


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## sabbath999 (Nov 13, 2008)

I personally couldn't care less about being encouraged by others...

I post my pictures because pictures are supposed to be shown to others... I don't really generally care if people pick or pan them.


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## SilverGlow (Nov 14, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Everyone,
> 
> Now that we've successfully captured and pinned a specimen, I suggest we pass it around the room and consider the consequences of not maintaining a healthy balance in our art (as it may be), including encouragement. As it truly takes "all kinds", we'll now be tagging SliverGrow and releasing it back into the wild. Be sure to use the sanitizer and wipe your hands carefully before leaving the thread please.


 
Your little game would be funny, if it was not so indicative of more troubling issues in your life. You have my sympathies...


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## Hertz van Rental (Nov 14, 2008)

The only thing I need is a corkscrew that works.


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## Synnove (Nov 14, 2008)

It is nice to know that other people like what you're doing but that can only go so far.  I am really critical of my photography and feel I am still very much a beginner.  I have a lot to learn so criticism is also important if done constructively.  Telling someone they suck is not helpful - it's just hurtful.  Telling them how they could be better is an asset to their craft.


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## Overread (Nov 14, 2008)

Do I need to be encouraged?
Interesting question - well first off its important to say that I certainly don't dislike it. Infact I can say confidently that I enjoy compliments and encouragement from others.

As for if its needed - well there are 2 cases:

1) getting no encouragement at all - well if people were indifferent to what I did - ie they cared no less - then I doubt it would directly affect me. I shoot for myself and I can take pleasure in both the act of shooting and also in seeing the end result oh the computer (and when I can work this darped printing out on prints!)

2) getting negative encouragement - ie being discouraged. Well its certainly not nice and not something that I like to get (note I am talking about discouragement NOT constructive crit). Were it to be all I got from people with regard to my work would it stop me? 
Well now I think that would depend on far too much to give an overall answer to since its far to big a variety - I mean what sort of discouragement are we talking about? Blatant hatred for my work, jealousy, the words of the ill informed, the words of peers, the words of mentors in life (not just photography).
Honestly there are groups that could (I think) stop a person being able to enjoy a hobby such as photography - even if they do just shoot for themselves. The group that I think could stop a person I would say is a mentor - be it a person, a photographer, a close friend  -- the rejection of someone we hold dear or in a position of respect can have a profound effect upon ones overconfidence no matter how hard a shell you weave around yourself the inner core is still going to be soft.
It might not stop some but it might take away an aspect of the fun - and if the person who gives the discouragement is held high enough in the mind of the photographer and they give a harsh enough comment then yes I think it can stop a person. Maybe not forever, but for a time at least

What is also interesting is that compliments alone are also not enough either - the words of strangers are nice, but (especially on impersonal forums) its easy to get lost of (what can feel) empty praise - encouragement with no heart behind it and sometimes just blind compliments. 

In the end to say if we need compliments or if we do not is not enough since the source and also nature of those compliments is also a key factor in understanding. However its also clear that sharing what we shoot (even if we just shoot for ourselves) is something that many of us also share and with that what is said about our work is going to impact us on some level


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## abraxas (Nov 14, 2008)

Interesting views on this subject.   I'm starting to wonder if those who feel as strongly about the importance of critique, both giving and recieving, are as weak and needy as they accuse others of being, maybe even more so. Just a thought, but wow, some of the responses- Like some sort of strangoid defense mindset.  I've had several critiques by professionals--photographers I have immense respect for.  From my experience, you don't need more than a couple.  It's far more valuable to develop your own judgement. If you want to learn, get a book and sit down and learn. Develop some discipline.  This thread contains a near perfect example of what kind of person may be picking nits at your photos. You'll never please them. Their encouragement is superficial, a downward, never-ending spiral.

Anyway, I think encouragement is much more positive and productive.  I believe that it is just as important to be able to discern empty praise from social compliments and that from solid encouragement.  I don't just mean on the internet either.  Encouragement comes in many other forms.  Maybe in the form of references for a job well done, sales of photos for publication, a round of applause after a talk, a prize in a contest, and even, yes, even from those who love you. There ain't nothing wrong with that. As long as it makes you happy.  Identify and know your audience. Develop vision and style.

Finally; there are some extremely good photographers on this site.  Find them and study their work.  For the most part, they say relatively little, so when you read something they've written, pay attention.  That's about the best you can get online.


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## Chiller (Nov 14, 2008)

Funny thing brother.  I see the same thing over and over, the people making comments that dont post anything.   I know a few photographers that are not on the forums, and they are convinced that these forums are good for a learning tool for a while.  
   I recently had a photographer look at my work.  He was a journalist/photographer who works in Kenya, and was visiting Canada.  He was actually a guest of the guy who rents space in our unit.   He was brought to see me at lunch, as they were having a conversation about my stuff.  (I had sold some photos to the guy who rents the space for cash)  Anyways...we had a great chat, and I asked him to critique my work.    I was blown away by some of the tips.   One of the tips he said..."shoot how you feel, and what you see, and dont listen to others.  Make yourself happy first"   He also asked for a few copies that he could take back to Kenya.  ( I work in a graphics company, so I just blew off a few on the colour copier at work)  That was an honour for me.  
   I have found recently, that the best critique for me are non photographers who have purchased my stuff.   My photo made somebody reach out and actually want it for themself.  Since there are millions of photographers out there...pro, amateur...or whatever label they want to paste on their forhead...somebody took the time to look at my photo and pic it over others.   That made me feel good.   To me it is silent critique and encouragement to carry on.


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## kundalini (Nov 14, 2008)

Chiller said:


> ...somebody took the time to look at my photo and pic it over others. That made me feel good. To me it is silent critique and *encouragement* *to carry on*.


That's a mouthful bro.


Congrats BTW and well deserved.


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## craig (Nov 14, 2008)

Nice!!!!!!! Profound words from Abraxass & Chiller in the above posts! And that my friends is what it is all about!!!!!!

Much Love & Bass to Abraxass & Chiller


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## JerryPH (Nov 14, 2008)

Honest and high quality CC is one thing... encouragement (as discussed) is another.  

One is a learning tool that can aid the person that is receptive to it, the other will not have the same impact on the improvement side... however, some people need a little encouragement, some cannot survive without it... and there is nothing wrong with either side.  What works for one human being may or may not work for another, and it is partly this diversity that makes us unique.

Does encouragement make you feel good?  Yes, I suppose it does.  Is it a needed ingredient for the photographer?  That depends on the individual, doesn't it?


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## abraxas (Nov 14, 2008)

Chiller, Kundalini, Craig, Invisible, LaFoto and at least one other, sort of ...

Your recognition of the value of encouragement is encouraging.


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## craig (Nov 15, 2008)

No doubt! We can sit here and spew our photo knowledge until we are blue in the face. We can be little every photograph to make our selves feel stronger. Fact of the matter is the real critic is unbiased toward others photos. The real critic will express his thoughts and more importantly ENCOURAGE the receiver to dig deeper or try harder. You are kidding yourself if you do not need encouragement. No one would be posting on this forum if they did not get encouragement at some point in their photo journey.

Jah Love

)'(


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## Hertz van Rental (Nov 15, 2008)

abraxas said:


> there are some extremely good photographers on this site.  Find them and study their work.  For the most part, they say relatively little, so when you read something they've written, pay attention.  That's about the best you can get online.



Remembering, of course, that our opinion of what is a good photograph and who is a good photographer changes as our knowledge increases and we mature in our views


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