# Is Honesty gone? Are we just a kiss and coddle forum now?



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!

I ignore them, because I am afraid I will be *banned* if I am honest.. even if I not rude about it!

Does anyone else feel this way?

If we see really BAD photography.. how ARE we supposed to address that? If we are anywhere near honest... somebody is probably going to get upset?

Are we a teaching forum.. or a kiss and coddle forum?

How do we address somebody else telling a really BAD photographer how great their shots are.. when they AREN'T?

Just curious!!!!


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## Trever1t (Jul 27, 2012)

Tell it like it is man! Come from the heart and never hold back.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

Charlie, your wasp photo and flower photos stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

seriously though.. I only generally give someone a cc on genre I feel I know best.  I hardly every comment on anything but weddings and portraits.  I also usually only give CC to people who have been here longer.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

well, I haven't seen anyone banned for any arguments over bad HDR photos so i would assume that it doesn't matter what you SAY here, as long as you don't post any memes (or other photos) you don't have the copyrights to. Blast away with impunity charlie!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> seriously though.. I only generally give someone a cc on genre I feel I know best.  I hardly every comment on anything but weddings and portraits.  I also usually only give CC to people who have been here longer.



Understood.. but it is usually the NEW people (new to photography, or have years of experience and still can't get a decent exposure) that need the most help...... not the people who have been here longer!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Charlie, your wasp photo and flower photos stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




PHHHTTTT!  Just cuz I don't have three gorgeous little models running around, I have to take what I can get!


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## macpro88 (Jul 27, 2012)

I say don't hold back. I hope no one holds back when critiquing my work... but that's just me. There is a difference between rude and saying a photo is crap then being stern and offering sound advice and WHY the photo is not good and ways it can improved.

From what I notice, some people post "snapshots" just to share a photo/memory etc and when it gets critiqued, the OP gets offended, and scares off people who actually want to post critique for other users... There seems to be a thin line of when ppl do and don't want C&C.

I say, there should be an option within the forum software that allows us to choose and option like "requesting C&C" and next to the title of the thread is standard symbol/whatever it may be stating that this OP in fact wants good, structured criticism. When the OP chooses this option to go along side their thread, they know what they are getting themselves into, and I think this makes more experienced members more comfortable to provide C&C.

As a moderator for some of the Android communities out there, we have started using "Tags" that the OP can use to say that this thread is a "THEME" or a "ROM" of  "MOD" and the tag stands in the same format and makes it easier for members to tell what the thread is.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> well, I haven't seen anyone banned for any arguments over bad HDR photos so i would assume that it doesn't matter what you SAY here, as long as you don't post any memes (or other photos) you don't have the copyrights to. Blast away with impunity charlie!



Wanna bet? I could get banned permanently in a heartbeat if I actually said what I was thinking to some people!  but I am literally afraid to even TRY to help these people.. because I might hurt their feelings, and piss off a mod or something.....


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

macpro88 said:


> I say don't hold back. I hope no one holds back when critiquing my work... but that's just me. There is a difference between rude and saying a photo is crap then being stern and offering sound advice and WHY the photo is not good and ways it can improved.
> 
> From what I notice, some people post "snapshots" just to share a photo/memory etc and when it gets critiqued, the OP gets offended, and scares off people who actually want to post critique for other users... There seems to be a thin line of when ppl do and don't want C&C.
> 
> ...



If someone doesn't want C&C.. they are supposed to post in the "Just for Fun" forum.. that one is basically C&C free.... everywhere else is fair game!


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## macpro88 (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> macpro88 said:
> 
> 
> > I say don't hold back. I hope no one holds back when critiquing my work... but that's just me. There is a difference between rude and saying a photo is crap then being stern and offering sound advice and WHY the photo is not good and ways it can improved.
> ...



This is true... however... most members probably DON'T think like this... shame on them right? haha. 

I think if there was a "Requesting C&C" tag used when creating a thread, the OP accepts full responsibility for what kinda mess he/she may be getting into lol and that should give the experienced members more comfort in being honest. And if you in fact provide good C&C you should not worry about offending someone, that's an issue the OP needs to get over, and if they can't get over it, well... they'll have a hard time improving their work and take it somewhere else  lol and if they take it to a mod and a mod says "Well... you asked for it... I'm afraid you're SOL, as long as the C&C isn't offensive in anyway."

It could work.. maybe... who knows...


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## Big Mike (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't know if anyone has been banned for being honest.  But there is a (sometimes fine) line between being honest and being brutal.  

Communicating on the internet is hard to do well...and many times, you have to guess the intellectual, mental and emotional state of who you are 'talking' to.  

So many of us have found that a good technique is to pepper your comments with both compliments and critique.  

Everyone was bad at photography, at some point.  So when you see bad photography, maybe suggest way that they can improve, rather than just pointing out the flaws.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > well, I haven't seen anyone banned for any arguments over bad HDR photos so i would assume that it doesn't matter what you SAY here, as long as you don't post any memes (or other photos) you don't have the copyrights to. Blast away with impunity charlie!
> ...



I did say that "I" haven't seen...not that there haven't been. 
maybe we need a photo critique section in the NSFW section with "no holds barred" critique allowed.


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## sm4him (Jul 27, 2012)

Trever1t said:


> Tell it like it is man! Come from the heart and never hold back.



uhh...this is Charlie...*sometimes* it might be good to "hold back." :lmao:

No, it's all kiss and coddle, suck it up. 
Just kidding--but I  don't want to see you get banned again, so I'm thinking if you're  fighting those urges, maybe you need to send a PM or two wherein you can  be more "brutally honest." 

Okay, all kidding aside:
No, I hope we aren't at the place where we can't be honest, even when that honesty is that the OP is not at the level they seem to believe they are.  I think we can be completely honest and yet completely civil--okay, MOSTLY civil. 

Had it not been for some brutal honesty, I for one would not have improved nearly as much as (hopefully) I have.  The thing is, it's up to the OP to decide whether to get their feelings hurt and turn the whole thing into a drama fest, or actually pay attention and try to learn how to improve.  

I'll admit, I too sometimes just don't reply in a thread instead of saying, "OMG do you SERIOuSLY think that is worth posting???"  Are you shocked??   It's true! 
And then I want to add: "Oh, did I offend you with my opinion? Well, you should hear the ones I keep to myself!"


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

Also, to get your message accross is very hard.  It may sound friendly if you had said it in person, but when you type it... you sound like the biggest A-hole.


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## SCraig (Jul 27, 2012)

My best advice on something like that is that if they are someone new then tell them that they suck the same way you would your girlfriend / wife / SO / best friend.  In other words instead of just bluntly stating that their shots suck use a little tact.  Something like, "Honey, those are just a touch overexposed.  It isn't hard to tell since there isn't a damn thing there except WHITE!"  Or maybe, "Your color balance is just a tad off.  Either that or he ate something he shouldn't have since his face is green as freakin' grass!"  You know, just a little bit of tact.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



But only paying members get to see that.. and most of them don't need the C&C to the degree I am referring to.... lol!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> I don't know if anyone has been banned for being honest.  But there is a (sometimes fine) line between being honest and being brutal.
> 
> Communicating on the internet is hard to do well...and many times, you have to guess the intellectual, mental and emotional state of who you are 'talking' to.
> 
> ...



I will take that into consideration.... Thanks!


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## Bynx (Jul 27, 2012)

Ive recently learned that commenting to certain people is just a waste of time. If I comment to anyone I dont look to see if they have 1 post or 10,000. I just call them as I see them. I would think that everyone posts stuff they really think is good, or even better, they know is bad and want help to fix it. So dont hold back. If anyone gets banned for commenting on a photo thats not right. As long as it doesnt get personal anything said about a photo should be ok. Just dont say its good, or its bad, or I dont like it, or I dig it without some explanation why.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

I think part of the problem, is that *sometimes* people mistake critiquing for blasting away at every fault the picture has in the worst way possible. 
Saying what a total waste of digital space the photo is, and how the puppy you just photographed probably died of shame afterwards is fine.. but for the OP's sake, 
at least TRY and explain what went wrong, why it happened, and how it can be corrected in future shots and/or fixed in post.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Also, to get your message accross is very hard.  It may sound friendly if you had said it in person, but when you type it... you sound like the biggest A-hole.



^^^ THIS! 

(happens to Schwetty all the time, right Robin?   lol)! <J/K>!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

sm4him said:


> Trever1t said:
> 
> 
> > Tell it like it is man! Come from the heart and never hold back.
> ...



Yep.. you know how I can be... lol!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Bynx said:


> Ive recently learned that commenting to certain people is just a waste of time. If I comment to anyone I dont look to see if they have 1 post or 10,000. I just call them as I see them. I would think that everyone posts stuff they really think is good, or even better, they know is bad and want help to fix it. So dont hold back. If anyone gets banned for commenting on a photo thats not right. As long as it doesnt get personal anything said about a photo should be ok. Just dont say its good, or its bad, or I dont like it, or I dig it without some explanation why.



Good idea, Bynx.. that is what I normally try to do! But sometimes that old Sarcasm seems to creep in.. lol!


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## jamesbjenkins (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> 
> I ignore them, because I am afraid I will be *banned* if I am honest.. even if I not rude about it!
> 
> ...



Tactful, constructive honesty is the best solution to this problem. Lots of members here seem to view C&C requests from amateur or unskilled photogs like a mountain lion would view a wounded goat. That doesn't solve anything except coddle the already bloated ego giving the critique.

As Robin said, offer C&C on images from a genre you have some modicum of expertise. Ignore the rest.

If I were to attempt to respond to every >10 post new member who asked for C&C, I'd have to quit my job, install a catheter and buy commercial size bags of snacks so I could sit in front of the computer 16 hours a day.

The real problem here is that there are way too many takers and nowhere near enough people with the expertise or desire to deal with all the requests from people that, frankly, have FAR more issues with their images than a handful of comments can remedy.

If I/you get banned for that position, than to Hell with this forum and its mods. :banghead:


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

SCraig said:


> My best advice on something like that is that if they are someone new then tell them that they suck the same way you would your girlfriend / wife / SO / best friend.  In other words instead of just bluntly stating that their shots suck use a little tact.  Something like, "Honey, those are just a touch overexposed.  It isn't hard to tell since there isn't a damn thing there except WHITE!"  Or maybe, "Your color balance is just a tad off.  Either that or he ate something he shouldn't have since his face is green as freakin' grass!"  You know, just a little bit of tact.



Tact? Hmmmm... never tried that before!  lol!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

jamesbjenkins said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> ...



Uh oh.. Honesty! 

To be honest..... this " *Lots of members here seem to view C&C requests from amateur or  unskilled photogs like a mountain lion would view a wounded goat. That  doesn't solve anything except coddle the already bloated ego giving the  critique."* doesn't make much sense to me! I guess you are saying that many of the members here view Noobs like a a Lion views a goat? As easy prey? And that the members "attack" to boost their "already bloated egos"?.  

IS that what you meant to say?

I do agree that we have many "takers"... and not enough experienced "givers"! And while I love seeing new people give C&C (many do very well at it...within the boundaries of what they know) there are times when what they are saying is TOTALLY wrong, and I am so tempted to say "ARE YOU SERIOUS? REALLY?" lol!


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## jwbryson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

I will give my personal C&C when a person posts 2 or 3 photos and it looks like they TRIED to take a "photo" and they aren't just posting a snapshot of their kid/dog/cat/car/vacation.

We see dozens upon dozens of "C&C please" threads from noobs and otherwise, and so it's hard to respond to all of them.  I will not post any comments on a photo when I don't think the person will take my comments into consideration and then go back and work on fixing the "problem."

Stated another way, I will ONLY post comments when (i) the person has tried to take a "good photo" and (ii) I think they are serious about getting feedback and improving.  Otherwise, what's the point?

If they just want to show off a snapshot of their 3 year old kid and are not interested in learning more about the technical side of things, then I will not waste my time or theirs.

Am I making any sense?


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 27, 2012)

I've always been honest on this forum.  I speak from my experience and knowledge as a long time professional photographer. Some people just don't understand what it's like working as freelance photographer.  I won't come right out and say a photo is bad, even though there have been many on here that are just plain bad.  I really don't care if some people have their feelings stepped on, that's life and they should learn to live with the positive and negative things that come along.  What's the point of misleading people?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> I will give my personal C&C when a person posts 2 or 3 photos and it looks like they TRIED to take a "photo" and they aren't just posting a snapshot of their kid/dog/cat/car/vacation.
> 
> We see dozens upon dozens of "C&C please" threads from noobs and otherwise, and so it's hard to respond to all of them.  I will not post any comments on a photo when I don't think the person will take my comments into consideration and then go back and work on fixing the "problem."
> 
> ...



Yes.. totally! 

I guess the people I am ranting about probably think they are good enough.. so I shouldn't waste my time (following your train of thought here..).  Hmmmm... another fine line... another hair to split!  lol!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I've always been honest on this forum.  I speak from my experience and knowledge as a long time professional photographer. Some people just don't understand what it's like working as freelance photographer.  I won't come right out and say a photo is bad, even though there have been many on here that are just plain bad.  I really don't care if some people have their feelings stepped on, that's life and they should learn to live with the positive and negative things that come along.  *What's the point of misleading people?*



True!  I am not concerned about hurting someone's feelings that much.. if they can't take honest C&C, they shouldn't ask! But I AM willing to say it is a bad photo.. and explain why! I just don't know if I should bother anymore.... lol!


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

Most of the time when I do want to post my CC, a few noobs already beat me to it and say how good the photos are .  Then I just change my mind.  I dont want to be that one A-hole saying bad things.


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## amolitor (Jul 27, 2012)

C&C should be mixed up a bit. It's a very rare photograph that has nothing good in it, so find it it and mention it. That's teaching too.

Critique should help the critiquer as much as the critiqued.

Also, don't get too cocky, you're just offering an opinion.

More on my dumb blog here, if anyone gives a damn, which you ought not:  Photos and Stuff: On Critique


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## Derrel (Jul 27, 2012)

BEING BANNED for posting honest C&C? I don't  think I have ever seen that happen. And let's be brutally honest: posting direct, honest C&C is nowhere near as egregious a crime as posting a meme image that you don't hold the copyright to...now that...THAT's a horrible offense. A kiss and coddle forum? Naw...TPF is surely NOT a "kiss and coddle" forum--an example of that would be Nikon Gear or Nikon Cafe...both those places have a genteel, may-I-mop-the-sweat-from-your-brow-oh-kind-sir kind of butler/master B.S. vibe going on. I dunno...there exists a positively huge number of newcomers to photography who know how to operate a camera, know how to make an exposure, and know how to adjust the autofocus point to come back with images that are exposed right, and focused right, but which have, quite often, very weak composition.

A lot of people who are interested in photography are more interested in the technical aspect of image-making, and have very little understanding of the visual arts. These people are usually pretty happy to make a well-exposed picture, that is well-focused. They are seldom concerned about, nor aware of, anything nuanced or sophisticated about photographic image-making, or storytelling, or whatever. Of course, if this is brought up, these folks often get reallllllly bent out of shape. They confuse being able to operate a camera with being a decent photographer. They are almost impossible to get through to on the artistic or visual arts levels. They are easily satisfied with TECHNICAL ADEQUACY...their friend and family often compliment them on their "good pitchers!". The worst of these people mistake almost ALL suggestions and ANY even slightly-negative C&C as "attacks" and "mean comments". These people often want nothing more than accolades and "Atta boy!" comments and "Great shot!" comments. Watch American Idol for a good corollary..."singers" who have little mastery over singing---an ages-old art. When these newbie singers are told their craft needs work, they freak out.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

do what I do.  

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/people-photography/292964-little-feedback.html


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Most of the time when I do want to post my CC, a few noobs already beat me to it and say how good the photos are .  Then I just change my mind.  I dont want to be that one A-hole saying bad things.



Exactly!! And HOW is that going to help the OP in question (the one with the bad photos?)! And how is that going to help the people who consider that bad work to be "good"???


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Derrel said:


> BEING BANNED for posting honest C&C? I don't  think I have ever seen that happen. And let's be brutally honest: posting direct, honest C&C is nowhere near as egregious a crime as posting a meme image that you don't hold the copyright to...now that...THAT's a horrible offense. A kiss and coddle forum? Naw...TPF is surely NOT a "kiss and coddle" forum--an example of that would be Nikon Gear or Nikon Cafe...both those places have a genteel, may-I-mop-the-sweat-from-your-brow-oh-kind-sir kind of butler/master B.S. vibe going on. I dunno...there exists a positively huge number of newcomers to photography who know how to operate a camera, know how to make an exposure, and know how to adjust the autofocus point to come back with images that are exposed right, and focused right, but which have, quite often, very weak composition.
> 
> A lot of people who are interested in photography are more interested in the technical aspect of image-making, and have very little understanding of the visual arts. These people are usually pretty happy to make a well-exposed picture, that is well-focused. They are seldom concerned about, nor aware of, anything nuanced or sophisticated about photographic image-making, or storytelling, or whatever. Of course, if this is brought up, these folks often get reallllllly bent out of shape. They confuse being able to operate a camera with being a decent photographer. They are almost impossible to get through to on the artistic or visual arts levels. They are easily satisfied with TECHNICAL ADEQUACY...their friend and family often compliment them on their "good pitchers!". The worst of these people mistake almost ALL suggestions and ANY even slightly-negative C&C as "attacks" and "mean comments". These people often want nothing more than accolades and "Atta boy!" comments and "Great shot!" comments. Watch American Idol for a good corollary..."singers" who have little mastery over singing---an ages-old art. When these newbie singers are told their craft needs work, they freak out.



Well said!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> do what I do.
> 
> http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/people-photography/292964-little-feedback.html



Again.. how is that going to help the OP? Saying "Cute Subjects, BUT.... " would be a much better choice, IMO!


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > do what I do.
> ...



it wont hahaha.


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## Bynx (Jul 27, 2012)

There are a few photo forums that are about to close down because members are leaving because of apathy towards photos being submitted. Here the problem seems to be that what gets said isnt all sugar sweet and lovey dovey. I like saying things like Excellent, Well Done, or Fantastic. But that only happens when it is. If its really bad, then it irks me enough to speak back. I dont speak from a professional point of view, but from someone with two eyes, and a brain that has come to the conclusion that something needs to be said. Sometimes it can come across as being harsh or rude but thats just how I type.


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## Overread (Jul 27, 2012)

Giving critique is not simply a case of knowing the problems and how to correct them; its a skill in itself, just like teaching or any other form of communication. It becomes even more important online because some of the rules change. 

For a start you've lost all inflection of voice and body language. Quips and jokes that you might use in person can fall flat online because you've no smile or chuckle to further communicate the jovial nature. As such words can feel far more bare bones and that can feel even more harsh if the posts a person gets in reply to their photos are fully critical.

There is also a training of new people to getting critique, they've got to learn how to receive it and how to understand what is being said as well as who is worth listening to and who is best thanked for their time, but probably hasn't got as much of a clue. 


My method is to first start with what I see going wrong; not forgetting that a new person does not just need me to tell them what is wrong, but what possible methods can be used to correct those problems. In addition to that if there are problems that I can't suggest a correction for I generally say that, its not weakness to say that you don't know the answer and it means that you don't look like you're hiding things. 
After that I also remember that new people often don't know what they've done right or they might not realise it; either way I do my best to also go through and point out what went right with the photo. Sometimes this might be a lot sometimes it might not be much - but I feel its important. Some people tend to feel that this is somehow "coddling" people - I tend to feel that its just part of giving a balanced form of critique. Also I feel that its important to remember that, online, everyone is fully equal. You don't start off above or below you start off on the same level, so I try to show a level of respect to others as well. I'm not talking as a teacher, I'm talking as just another amateur chatting to another so I try to keep to that.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Bynx said:


> There are a few photo forums that are about to close down because members are leaving because of apathy towards photos being submitted. Here the problem seems to be that what gets said isnt all sugar sweet and lovey dovey. I like saying things like Excellent, Well Done, or Fantastic. But that only happens when it is. If its really bad, then it irks me enough to speak back. I dont speak from a professional point of view, but from someone with two eyes, and a brain that has come to the conclusion that something needs to be said. Sometimes it can come across as being harsh or rude but thats just how I type.



Understood! It was mentioned earlier how hard it is to communicate by keyboard only... easy to misconstrue meaning and intent! But sometimes hard things still need to be said!


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## nmoody (Jul 27, 2012)

I encourage you all to tell me how it is, surface coating it is not going to help me. As long as the criticism is constructive it is always welcomed no matter how bad it is.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> Giving critique is not simply a case of knowing the problems and how to correct them; its a skill in itself, just like teaching or any other form of communication. It becomes even more important online because some of the rules change.
> 
> For a start you've lost all inflection of voice and body language. Quips and jokes that you might use in person can fall flat online because you've no smile or chuckle to further communicate the jovial nature. As such words can feel far more bare bones and that can feel even more harsh if the posts a person gets in reply to their photos are fully critical.
> 
> ...



Well put!


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## tmjjk (Jul 27, 2012)

Just my noob two cents.... I know my images need help.  I am not posting for a pat on the back or a thumbs up (although that would be nice if deserved).  By kissing and coddling, it takes away from any true accomplishments one has made.  I appreciate it when I am told how it is.  Now, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I want to get better, and to do so I need HONEST feedback.  
Recently I have seen some truly awful images posted and watched and waited for the banter to begin, and all that was given was compliments... whatever.  Do your thing Charlie!.. Constructive criticism is always welcome to me.  Thank you to all of you experienced photographers lending a hand to us newbies trying to get better.  I am a mother of six children and work three different jobs, I cannot afford or find the time for photography courses.  YOU are my teachers and I appreciate you!!!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

nmoody said:


> I encourage you all to tell me how it is, surface coating it is not going to help me. As long as the criticism is constructive it is always welcomed no matter how bad it is.



Yes.. but not everyone welcomes that! lol! As mentioned.. many post here expecting what they got from family and facebook ... compliments about how talented they are.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> Just my noob two cents.... I know my images need help.  I am not posting for a pat on the back or a thumbs up (although that would be nice if deserved).  By kissing and coddling, it takes away from any true accomplishments one has made.  I appreciate it when I am told how it is.  Now, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I want to get better, and to do so I need HONEST feedback.
> Recently I have seen some truly awful images posted and watched and waited for the banter to begin, and all that was given was compliments... whatever.  Do your thing Charlie!.. Constructive criticism is always welcome to me.  Thank you to all of you experienced photographers lending a hand to us newbies trying to get better.  I am a mother of six children and work three different jobs, I cannot afford or find the time for photography courses.  YOU are my teachers and I appreciate you!!!



ooooohhhhhh.... you are in for it now! She is fair game now, guys.... no holds barred!     lol!


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## tmjjk (Jul 27, 2012)

CRAP


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## SCraig (Jul 27, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> Just my noob two cents.... I know my images need help.  I am not posting for a pat on the back or a thumbs up (although that would be nice if deserved).  By kissing and coddling, it takes away from any true accomplishments one has made.  I appreciate it when I am told how it is.  Now, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I want to get better, and to do so I need HONEST feedback.
> Recently I have seen some truly awful images posted and watched and waited for the banter to begin, and all that was given was compliments... whatever.  Do your thing Charlie!.. Constructive criticism is always welcome to me.  Thank you to all of you experienced photographers lending a hand to us newbies trying to get better.  I am a mother of six children and work three different jobs, I cannot afford or find the time for photography courses.  YOU are my teachers and I appreciate you!!!



YOU do.  In fact many do.  But you would be surprised how many there are that don't.  The "Facebook Pros" show up with what they consider to be National Geographic material and then get annoyed when people don't gush over how great it is.  There are so many people with cameras today, all of them with friends and families telling them how great they are, and when their little bubble gets popped they get annoyed.  I haven't been around here that long but I've seen it many, many times already.  Saw it once yesterday as a matter of fact.  Until someone has been around a little while we don't know which category they fit into.

And then there is the group that expect people to immediately comment on their photos, and if it isn't done in what they consider to be a timely manner they get annoyed.  Saw that happen yesterday to.


----------



## sm4him (Jul 27, 2012)

Overread said:


> For a start you've lost all inflection of voice and body language. Quips and jokes that you might use in person can fall flat online because you've no smile or chuckle to further communicate the jovial nature.



BUT....BUT...We have EMOTICONS!!   That makes it all clear, doesn't it?!?
</humor>


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

sm4him said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > For a start you've lost all inflection of voice and body language. Quips and jokes that you might use in person can fall flat online because you've no smile or chuckle to further communicate the jovial nature.
> ...



seriously, who  needs vocal inflection when you have


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

SCraig said:


> tmjjk said:
> 
> 
> > Just my noob two cents.... I know my images need help.  I am not posting for a pat on the back or a thumbs up (although that would be nice if deserved).  By kissing and coddling, it takes away from any true accomplishments one has made.  I appreciate it when I am told how it is.  Now, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I want to get better, and to do so I need HONEST feedback.
> ...



Yep... and they get CRANKY!  lol!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

sm4him said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > For a start you've lost all inflection of voice and body language. Quips and jokes that you might use in person can fall flat online because you've no smile or chuckle to further communicate the jovial nature.
> ...



Only if mixed with the appropriate MEMES! lol!


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



It depends on if they are cheering for the Noob I am blasting.. or me for blasting them! lol!


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > sm4him said:
> ...



they are just cheering for the sake of cheering!


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



Oh.. airheads.. gotcha!


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Interesting discussion so far!! Thanks for all the input, everyone!


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Interesting discussion so far!! Thanks for all the input, everyone!



no problem, thats what were here for!


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## shefjr (Jul 27, 2012)

As a noob I wish I was given more c&c. I notice at times I will get many views but no 2cents.  I assume most of my photos are so crappy it's not worth wasting your (all pros) time  Oh! And you may come off like an a-hole giving your honest thoughts but, for me personally I don't mind. All are free to take off the gloves.


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

shefjr said:


> As a noob I wish I was given more c&c. I notice at times I will get many views but no 2cents.  I assume most of my photos are so crappy it's not worth wasting your (all pros) time  Oh! And you may come off like an a-hole giving your honest thoughts but, for me personally I don't mind. All are free to take off the gloves.



careful what you ask for...you might find the gloves were padding the brass knuckles.  :mrgreen:


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## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Read two pages then skimmed.  lol.

Just wanted to say, if my chit stinks...tear it up, crumple it up, and throw the soggy wet mess in my face.  I don't care.

I don't need sugar coating, I already know what is good in my photos, I need to know the bad so I can improve.  Telling me the good does not make the bad easier, it makes me think your a hippie.

I like this sort of critique so that I can feel good about my work the day my post gets accolades.  Then I will know I have genuinely done a good job.


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## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

I will also say that telling me "why" something is bad and offering up advice on "how" to fix it or prevent it, is what I am really after.  How it is presented is not important as long as it is presented.  

Simply comment with "dude, your chit is terrible"  will most likely just get ignored as it is not valuable to my improvement.  "dude your chit is terrible, because....., and you can avoid it by...."   is what I am after.


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## shefjr (Jul 27, 2012)

pixmedic said:
			
		

> careful what you ask for...you might find the gloves were padding the brass knuckles.  :mrgreen:



Why are you being mean to me! :runs away crying:
LOL!
Bring it!


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## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

I also think that the problem is the noobs that come here thinking they are hot chit because Facebook loves them, they got some paying gigs to which they produced crap, and they then come here to validate their existence and show us their wares.  We laugh and gawk and tell them why it sucks, they get butthurt and leave, giving the bird on their way out.

That is not "our" fault as a community that they are uncomfortable having a mirror held up, of which brings reality back to their lives.

Yes, sometimes we can be nicer, but whats the point really.  Those sorts of people would act the same if you politely said the same thing.  Ruining their reality sets them off no matter how you put it.

I recall once a chick blew up simply because i used the word "terrible".  I was nice otherwise, gave great information, but because I used the word "terrible" I was called rude and she got butthurt.  Those people are tools and should not be coddled.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Read two pages then skimmed.  lol.
> 
> Just wanted to say, if my chit stinks...tear it up, crumple it up, and throw the soggy wet mess in my face.  I don't care.
> 
> ...



What do you have against hippies? You aren't a damn redneck, are you?


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> I will also say that telling me "why" something is bad and offering up advice on "how" to fix it or prevent it, is what I am really after.  How it is presented is not important as long as it is presented.
> 
> Simply comment with "dude, your chit is terrible"  will most likely just get ignored as it is not valuable to my improvement.  "dude your chit is terrible, because....., and you can avoid it by...."   is what I am after.



Hmmm... how much money you got! I will critique you really good!  

It is not people like you that the thread was aimed at...  (but don't let that go to your head, either!)  lol!


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## SCraig (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> Read two pages then skimmed.  lol.
> 
> Just wanted to say, if my chit stinks...tear it up, crumple it up, and throw the soggy wet mess in my face.  I don't care.
> 
> ...



Man, your comments SUCK and here's why: It's "think you're a hippie" and not "think your a hippie".  

Wow, that DID work well!


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## kundalini (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> 
> I ignore them, because I am afraid I will be *banned* if I am honest.. even if I not rude about it!
> 
> ...



I'm not going to bother reading through three pages of drivel.  This is a BS thread and you know it.  Nobody is going to get banned for giving C&C, not even the "rude" people giving it.

The only hold-back I have is disagreeing with Kerbouchard.  George will report you in a heartbeat.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

SCraig said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Read two pages then skimmed.  lol.
> ...



I agree.. the damn redneck needs to learn to spell to be able to communicate effectively!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

kundalini said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> ...



Been there, done that.. got the medal! I think it was the word "*****" in my avatar sig.. or something!


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## sm4him (Jul 27, 2012)

Ernicus said:


> I don't need sugar coating,....
> *
> I like this sort of critique so that I can feel good about my work the day my post gets accolades.  Then I will know I have genuinely done a good job*.



^THIS happened to me today, and man, did it ever feel good!


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## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

SCraig said:


> Ernicus said:
> 
> 
> > Read two pages then skimmed.  lol.
> ...



Touche good sir, touche


----------



## jaguaraz (Jul 27, 2012)

Hello all.  I'm an "old noob" if you can believe the oxymoron.   I joined in 2010 but only made my first photo for CC a few days ago.  I wanted to understand what makes good photos by learning from the criticism given to others.  I also have made mental note of the very expert (and sometimes cranky) comments given by some of the more prolific artists on this site.  Reading CC every day on pictures is like a textbook that is being written as I read and that makes it very special.  I try to anticipate what my favorite posters will say.    Please please stay honest about feedback.  Even though I feel like a taker because I have lurked so long,  I totally enjoy comparing my own opinions to those of you with so much more experience.  Sometimes honesty sounds mean but it isn't; it is just..... honest.   AFter taking classes, reading books, and visiting this site nearly every day, I will be posting more and I crave good advice; good honest advice without sugar coating or false compliments.  Thanks to the number of you who have contributed to this thread whose opinions I already respect!  Keep it up.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

jaguaraz said:


> Hello all.  I'm an "old noob" if you can believe the oxymoron.   I joined in 2010 but only made my first photo for CC a few days ago.  I wanted to understand what makes good photos by learning from the criticism given to others.  I also have made mental note of the very expert (and sometimes cranky) comments given by some of the more prolific artists on this site.  Reading CC every day on pictures is like a textbook that is being written as I read and that makes it very special.  I try to anticipate what my favorite posters will say.    Please please stay honest about feedback.  Even though I feel like a taker because I have lurked so long,  I totally enjoy comparing my own opinions to those of you with so much more experience.  Sometimes honesty sounds mean but it isn't; it is just..... honest.   AFter taking classes, reading books, and visiting this site nearly every day, I will be posting more and I crave good advice; good honest advice without sugar coating or false compliments.  Thanks to the number of you who have contributed to this thread whose opinions I already respect!  Keep it up.



Welcome! Now that you have warned us...  go for it!


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## nineoneeighttony (Jul 27, 2012)

There is a difference between helping people understand how to improve and making someone feel incompetent. You don't have to "kiss and cuddle". But if you show someone respect when offering advise then you will get your point across without pushing people away from the forum.


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## nmoody (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Yes.. but not everyone welcomes that! lol! As mentioned.. many post here expecting what they got from family and facebook ... compliments about how talented they are.



I understand that which is why I voiced my opinion. If they want to be told their pile of crap is all rainbows and unicorns they should check out forums that cater to MWAC.

It's not helping me everyone lies to me or just doesn't comment all. Most o my threads requesting feedback end up with very few responses and I can only assume its because something is wrong and they are too scared to tell me what is. Sadly this doesn't help me.


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## skieur (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> 
> I ignore them, because I am afraid I will be *banned* if I am honest.. even if I not rude about it!
> 
> ...




Wake up and smell the coffee!  Photography forums have been or are being bought by "facebook" style companies whose main interest is more members, social interaction and SHOWING rather than improving your photos.  Check out the company that bought www.photoforum.com, for example.

skieur


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

nineoneeighttony said:


> There is a difference between helping people understand how to improve and making someone feel incompetent. You don't have to "kiss and cuddle". But if you show someone respect when offering advise then you will get your point across without pushing people away from the forum.



After your comments in a now closed thread.... I wonder that you actually advocate showing respect to anyone. It wasn't shown to anyone in that thread! Interesting... thanks for your comment!


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## MonicaBH (Jul 27, 2012)

I've been hanging around here for a couple of years, and I've seen some people get real butt hurt and leave from a C&C that didn't go their way.

Here's the thing with me.

When I post images here, I post them because I have already C&Cd them myself, and I'm looking to compare what I think I did wrong with what others see.  I post images because I _want_ to learn and get better.  Now, true:  I only post what I consider to be my very best (and it's not all that great).  Not giving honest critiques is as unfair to those of us that want (and NEED) it than lying to a fauxtographer that their FB albums are all top notch.

That being said, I have _got _to figure out how even get C&C on the few images I post.  The C&C I've gotten has been infrequent at best.

Charlie, I say bombs away.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

MonicaBH said:


> I've been hanging around here for a couple of years, and I've seen some people get real butt hurt and leave from a C&C that didn't go their way.
> 
> Here's the thing with me.
> 
> ...



Yea.. but you are a babe!!! I have to be nice to you!    (meant humorously in a non-sexist way, I promise!)     <jeez.. I am even posting disclaimers! ARRGGHH!>

Seriously.. I either say nothing... or I say what needs to be said. I will always be honest with those that want it....


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## nineoneeighttony (Jul 27, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> nineoneeighttony said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference between helping people understand how to improve and making someone feel incompetent. You don't have to "kiss and cuddle". But if you show someone respect when offering advise then you will get your point across without pushing people away from the forum.
> ...


I find it funny that if I don't filter my mouth and I use choice words it gets reported! Don't expect me to show respect when it is not shown...


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## pixmedic (Jul 27, 2012)

is there really any difference in any other forum? This is my first and only photo forum so...i don't have anything else to compare it to. 
how DOES this forum compare to others as far as number of contributing members and content?


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## KenC (Jul 27, 2012)

There isn't a real issue here.  Once in a great while someone doesn't like the feedback they get and they get a little huffy.  If we then just ignored them they would calm down eventually.  But this reaction really is very rare.  I comment on a lot of images and I've never had anyone get hostile about any of my comments.


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 27, 2012)

kundalini said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> ...




Reported... 

Come on...we have to give the mod's something to do.  :mrgreen:


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## Z3phyr (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm brand spankin' new to this forum, but I'd much rather someone tell me that my photos are god awful and can be improved by __________ than have everyone respond with "nice," "great shot," or "fantastic photo" when the picture is, in fact, complete garbage. It's a lot easier to find areas for improvement when you have someone with fresh eyes or a different perspective. Brutal honesty is almost essential if the person asking for C&C actually wants to improve rather than use the thread as a thinly veiled attempt to stroke their ego.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 27, 2012)

You know what's gone? My virginity. Since '03.

BOOOM!


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## dxqcanada (Jul 27, 2012)

There are comments, critics, opinions ... it's all in the delivery.

Should we say "it sucks" ... or does it require a "it sucks, because ..." ?

I don't tend to comment on images I do not care about ... we all have our own tastes.

     [h=1]&#8220;Those who can't do teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym.&#8221;     [/h]   &#8213;     Woody Allen


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 27, 2012)

Ah, I see the forum is in repeats. 
I think I've seen this episode ten times now.


----------



## sm4him (Jul 27, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Ah, I see the forum is in repeats.
> I think I've seen this episode ten times now.



It's because of the Olympics...EVERY thing is in repeats during the Olympics.
We'll return to regularly scheduled threads after the closing ceremony.


----------



## dxqcanada (Jul 27, 2012)

... I think we like to hear our own voices heard by others. It makes some feel better.


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## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

instead of "kiss and coddle" how about "azz fuking with reach arounds"  ? ?

It's hurts a bit at the start but you at least get to finish off with a smile.


----------



## Ernicus (Jul 27, 2012)

Enjoy that while I get back to reading.  Break over.


----------



## bentcountershaft (Jul 27, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Ah, I see the forum is in repeats.
> I think I've seen this episode ten times now.




TPF has gone Hollywood for the summer.  Thank god for Burn Notice.


----------



## Steve5D (Jul 27, 2012)

It's possible to be direct and to the point without being a complete ass about it. 

It's sad that some people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around such a simple concept. If I post a photo that needs help, the guy who says "This is horrible and it sucks" gets totally dismissed and, in doing so, identifies himself as being someone who simply _has t_o be an ass when critiquing someone's work. Such people usually have a _tremendous _chip on their shoulder, and have a need to feel superior to everyone else.

The guy who says "Here's what's wrong..." is the guy I'll pay attention to...


----------



## Steve5D (Jul 27, 2012)

Bynx said:


> If its really bad, then it irks me enough to speak back.



What's truly concerning is that you can be "irked" by a picture someone posts...


----------



## dxqcanada (Jul 27, 2012)

And sometimes ... a photo just sucks ... I've shot many ... I just know not to post it.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 27, 2012)

jaguaraz said:


> Hello all.  I'm an "old noob" if you can believe the oxymoron.   I joined in 2010 but only made my first photo for CC a few days ago.  I wanted to understand what makes good photos by learning from the criticism given to others.  I also have made mental note of the very expert (and sometimes cranky) comments given by some of the more prolific artists on this site.  Reading CC every day on pictures is like a textbook that is being written as I read and that makes it very special.  I try to anticipate what my favorite posters will say.    Please please stay honest about feedback.  Even though I feel like a taker because I have lurked so long,  I totally enjoy comparing my own opinions to those of you with so much more experience.  Sometimes honesty sounds mean but it isn't; it is just..... honest.   AFter taking classes, reading books, and visiting this site nearly every day, I will be posting more and I crave good advice; good honest advice without sugar coating or false compliments.  Thanks to the number of you who have contributed to this thread whose opinions I already respect!  Keep it up.



Glad to see you STEP UP TO THE PLATE!!!!!!! Your dance card will fill up pretty soon now that you're not over *there*, wallflower-ing it!!!!


----------



## Derrel (Jul 27, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Most of the time when I do want to post my CC, a few noobs already beat me to it and say how good the photos are .  Then I just change my mind.  I dont want to be that one A-hole saying bad things.



Nothing quite as useless as that kind of an attitude...unwilling to speak your mind for fear of not being loved...that kind of attitude is worse than posting ANYTHING.


----------



## Bynx (Jul 27, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Bynx said:
> 
> 
> > If its really bad, then it irks me enough to speak back.
> ...



Whats wrong with being irritated when someone posts an image which is clearly so bad, it just defies description. You know, like some of the ones you post.


----------



## pgriz (Jul 27, 2012)

I think it was Overread who noted that critiquing was an acquired skill, and we can all learn to do it better.  The trick is to give enough positive to allow the OP (whoever it is) to be open to the comments, and then focus on the issue that can be improved.  Brutal honesty is overrated.  Honesty is not.  If the goal is to get people to change, then packaging the message so that the medicine is taken is more productive than wacking the errant pupil over the head or knuckles.  I've trained and supervised hundreds of people.  The most effective way of getting someone to do something is for them to want to do it.  And that means that the "agent of change" has to make the reason to change seductively attractive.  When we critique, is the purpose to show how smart/good we are, or is it to get the person we are addressing to change their viewpoint or approach?  The latter requires that the person is primed to listen, and that priming is almost always started with a positive remark.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 27, 2012)




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## rexbobcat (Jul 27, 2012)

COPYRIGHT!!!!!;$,$/82)./$/?&;$:&/


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 27, 2012)

Then ****ing report it so we can all be each others worst enemies.


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## manaheim (Jul 27, 2012)

Not that anyone gives a rat's ass what I think, or will even read what I type, but hey... what the hell...

This forum had a higher signal to noise ration when it wasn't "the largest photography forum on the internet". *shrug*  It is what it is.

Over time I've learned to sorta skip over any photos that are train wrecks.  Those people usually get mad because no one replies to their pictures, but they'd be even more mad if some of us did, because the best we could really say was "Um... no."  And then they'll say how horrible we are for not being more constructive, but it really boils down to the equivelent of stepping out in front of a car.  If you don't know that what you did wasn't the best idea, then my telling you isn't going to fix it... and frankly, I'm not sure how I can articulate to you that move was unwise in a way that would lend any additional information to what should already be somewhat obvious.

Ok, maybe not THAT bad... but you probably know what I mean, right?  Right.

I comment when I see something interesting, something amazing, or something that looks like the person has a real spark going or real natural talent, but they just sorta missed a little.  Other than that, I just don't have the patience to be barked at by various MWACs and HDR-addicts ("I have a hammer, so clearly everything is a nail!").


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## mommyof4qteez (Jul 27, 2012)

I think it's possible to give C&C without tearing the person apart... Be positive with it...everyone here is here to learn and improve.. no one here wants to deal with a$$holes that bring them down...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 27, 2012)

Then go to ilovephotography.com, or the froknowsphotography.com forums.

There is a difference between tearing the person apart, and tearing the image apart.
Although both can result in personal growth.


----------



## mommyof4qteez (Jul 27, 2012)

Tear the image apart as you please, but in a positive manner is all I am saying... Tell everyone how they can improve...not just how they stink...


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 27, 2012)

Kumbaya, my Lord....Kumbaya....


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 27, 2012)

Ima gonna go head and add you to my list. You'll be much happier tha way.


----------



## Steve5D (Jul 27, 2012)

Bynx said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Bynx said:
> ...



Well, I would say that commenting on such a photo then speaks to the profound lack of intelligence on the person doing it.

You know, like you do.

There are a few people here whose self-worth and sense of value is directly proportional to how derogatory they can be when commenting on someone's photos. If they're not tearing someone a new one, they feel as though their value is mitigated. That manifests itself by their inability to simply move on and not comment at all. They can't control the urge. The very idea that they might get upset by someone posting a bad photo is alarming, and there's probably even a clinical name for it.

 I've seen plenty of their stuff. Some of it's very good. 

Some of it blows...


----------



## pic_chick (Jul 27, 2012)

Hello all I just started photography and I joined this site for the CC. I needed it as i know nothing other then point and shoot. Don't hold back tell me whats whats and if others can't take CC then that is their loss not yours. Teach the willing leave the rest.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 27, 2012)

mommyof4qteez said:


> I think it's possible to give C&C without tearing the person apart... Be positive with it...everyone here is here to learn and improve.. no one here wants to deal with a$$holes that bring them down...



Bring them down? Or make them see? OR are they the same thing? I could care less about hurting someones feelings, or "bringing them down".. if it help them to be a better photographer! If they are here for coddling.. they should say so, so I can ignore them!


----------



## mommyof4qteez (Jul 27, 2012)

pic_chick said:
			
		

> Hello all I just started photography and I joined this site for the CC. I needed it as i know nothing other then point and shoot. Don't hold back tell me whats whats and if others can't take CC then that is their loss not yours. Teach the willing leave the rest.



Lol! You're in for a treat!


----------



## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> If we see really BAD photography.. how ARE we supposed to address that? If we are anywhere near honest... somebody is probably going to get upset?



Someone posted a photo of a car that, frankly, sucked. It was absolutely atrocious. There simply wasn't a single about it that was good.

Now, some folks here see that as blood in the water. They can't control themselves. It's not outside the realm of possibility that they actually feel a degree of sexual gratification by tearing someone else apart.

That's not my opinion, by the way, it actually happens.

Now, m_y c_omment was along the lines of "Dude, nothing is working in this photo. It's a compositional nightmare, the white balance needs to be addressed, and the horizon is crooked."

The poster appreciated my comments and, as you might expect, completely ignored the pinheads who were saying "This sucks" and "Why did you even bother posting, this is horrible"...



> Are we a teaching forum.. or a kiss and coddle forum?



Is this a teaching forum? I don't recall seeing that as the primary function when I signed up. Perhaps you could be kind enough to direct me to where that's stated...



> How do we address somebody else telling a really BAD photographer how great their shots are.. when they AREN'T?



Do you have to? Seriously, do you have to? Is the world going to stop spinning if you don't? Will the world of photography suffer irrepairable damage if you don't?

No, of course not.

Will you get a charge out of telling someone that it sucks? Well, then your comment is being made more for your benefit than anyone else's and, as such, needn't really be shared.

The bottom line is this: there are decent people here, who would truly like to help others progress and imprive in their photography. Then there are the ass-clowns who lack the facility to be helpful and, instead, would rather try to paint themself as some sort of "expert".

Thankfully, such people are both easy to spot and easy to laugh at...


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 28, 2012)

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > If we see really BAD photography.. how ARE we supposed to address that? If we are anywhere near honest... somebody is probably going to get upset?
> ...



You just made the list, bud! Bye!


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## charlie76 (Jul 28, 2012)

Schwettylens said:


> Charlie, your wasp photo and flower photos stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




LOL!!!!!!  Holy crap thats funny


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2012)

charlie76 said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > Charlie, your wasp photo and flower photos stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



Yea.. Robin is pretty funny! Good guy!


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

Add two more to the list of people whose self-worth rests in their ability to be counter-productive...


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## jkzo (Jul 28, 2012)

critiq, critiq always on positive side will definitely help to hone up ones own skills


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## mommyof4qteez (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Someone posted a photo of a car that, frankly, sucked. It was absolutely atrocious. There simply wasn't a single about it that was good.
> 
> Now, some folks here see that as blood in the water. They can't control themselves. It's not outside the realm of possibility that they actually feel a degree of sexual gratification by tearing someone else apart.
> 
> ...



Very well said


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2012)

mommyof4qteez said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahhh... another one! Bye!


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> mommyof4qteez said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



Thank you for confirming that you're one of those immature types who simply can't be decent when giving criticism...


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## PixelRabbit (Jul 28, 2012)

Brutal critique doesn't scare me but if everyone starts kissing and coddling I will be afraid... very afraid.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 28, 2012)

PixelRabbit said:


> Brutal critique doesn't scare me but if everyone starts kissing and coddling I will be afraid... very afraid.


 Don't be afraid. My beard is actually very soft.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 28, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Don't be afraid. My beard is actually very soft.



It's interesting that you allude to the density of your beard. I was talking to my friend today who thought that we should both grow beards. I agreed to, but only under the condition that we dip our beards into molten vats of caramel every day (with time to let them harden). Do you know how sharp caramel can get? **** is cray.


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## PixelRabbit (Jul 28, 2012)

Oh Bitter don't tease!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 28, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Soup is my nemesis!


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## mommyof4qteez (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Thank you for confirming that you're one of those immature types who simply can't be decent when giving criticism...



Exactly!!


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## charlie76 (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm still fairly new here...but I thought I'd deposit my $0.02:

The first time I was critiqued "harshly" it shocked me..felt like crap for a bit...but never posted haphazardly again.  So in that sense, fear of the gurus has made be improve my game.  I like how there is a high standard here on TPF...keeps me sharp...and I aways listen to peers and those with more experience.

However, some people are surprisingly harsh, for sure. But I'd rather TPF lean slightly toward the "harsh" end, rather the "cuddly" end.  I think people should be themselves on here; If you're an ******* in the shop...be an ******* here.  It's ok with me.


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

charlie76 said:


> So in that sense, fear of the gurus has made be improve my game.



Well, see, that's the thing. The self-proclaimed "gurus" here... aren't...


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## prodigy2k7 (Jul 28, 2012)

I think I started the "honesty" in the other thread. I dont know. I wasn't trying to be mean. I simply don't like overlooked "HDR" images. They look horrible in my opinion. Then someone else had to start cussing and started getting out of hand.


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## charlie76 (Jul 28, 2012)

o hey tyler said:
			
		

> It's interesting that you allude to the density of your beard. I was talking to my friend today who thought that we should both grow beards. I agreed to, but only under the condition that we dip our beards into molten vats of caramel every day (with time to let them harden). Do you know how sharp caramel can get? **** is cray.



Whaaaaat.   My first thought: careful getting down with the woman, with that sharp beard...unless it was her suggestion, of course.


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## charlie76 (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Well, see, that's the thing. The self-proclaimed "gurus" here... aren't...



When I get a harsh comment...I immediately go into THEIR work and compare to mine.  That's how I "absorb" criticism.   I remember one guy said something harsh to me....I went into his stuff.... ALL pictures of flowers.  I felt better.


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## charlie76 (Jul 28, 2012)

pic_chick said:
			
		

> Hello all I just started photography and I joined this site for the CC. I needed it as i know nothing other then point and shoot. Don't hold back tell me whats whats and if others can't take CC then that is their loss not yours. Teach the willing leave the rest.



oooooooo he he....she asked for it..hope you don't do HDR....they get a little nutso over there


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 28, 2012)

It's funny how Steve5D likes to point fingers, and belittle others, yet he does like to go stalking someone and harassing them...




Bitter Jeweler said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Snapshots.
> ...



Steve, weren't you banned from another forum, because they wouldn't let you give honest, negative critique? Wasn't that your story?
Yet here you are, continually telling other people what they should say, and how to say it?

You're no better than those you point fingers at.


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## mommyof4qteez (Jul 28, 2012)

charlie76 said:
			
		

> When I get a harsh comment...I immediately go into THEIR work and compare to mine.  That's how I "absorb" criticism.   I remember one guy said something harsh to me....I went into his stuff.... ALL picture of flowers.  I felt better.



Haha!! Yep...been there! Love getting slammed by someone who takes pics of flowers and trees and dead insects...try chasing a 1 year old around for the "perfect shot"...


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> It's funny how Steve5D likes to point fingers, and belittle others, yet he does like to go stalking someone and harassing them...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, actually I was banned from another forum because of a personal issue with one of the mods.

But, please, do continue to post like you have a clue.

As for the comments you quoted above, I don't understand what the problem is. Isn't that the type of critique you're looking for?

What's the problem?


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

mommyof4qteez said:


> charlie76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, that's the thing. Those who are the most vocal are the ones who actually need help...


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## mommyof4qteez (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> Well, that's the thing. Those who are the most vocal are the ones who actually need help...



100% agree!!


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## Tuffythepug (Jul 28, 2012)

I suppose I'm one of the typical newcomers who feel like they know a bit about photography when they sign up.  But I'm realistic enough to know that 40 years of experience behind a lens and in a darkroom don't make you an expert;  or even a particularly good photographer if you don't continue to learn from those who have wisdom to impart.  I've always progressed at a faster rate when there were others to bounce ideas off of and learn from.    Most of the photos I post here could benefit from the suggestions I get from other members.   A couple of my pictures were improved greatly by helpful comment and criticism. And, like anyone else, I do post pictures that I am proud of and I hope for favorable views from others when I do but I didn't join the forum to be kissed or coddled.   Neither did I join to be belittled, or embarrassed.  I can take the criticism so long as it's not personal or hateful.    I've only been here for about a week;  so far, so good.


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## baturn (Jul 28, 2012)

Isn't it funny how some of the folks who give good honest criticism and help to those requesting it, are afraid their comments are to harsh and some of the real arseholes on here are advocating a kinder gentler forum.   Shrug!


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> charlie76 said:
> 
> 
> > So in that sense, fear of the gurus has made be improve my game.
> ...



I've been here for a bit and have yet to see anyone self-proclaim themselves as anything.


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## sm4him (Jul 28, 2012)

baturn said:


> Isn't it funny how some of the folks who give good honest criticism and help to those requesting it, are afraid their comments are to harsh and some of the real arseholes on here are advocating a kinder gentler forum.   Shrug!



^+1
No...+10


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## sm4him (Jul 28, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> mommyof4qteez said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...





Steve5D said:


> Thank you for confirming that you're one of those immature types who simply can't be decent when giving criticism...



Pot, meet kettle.

My experience does not line up with that.  I came to TPF last October. I spent some time looking at the C&C on others' photos before posting my own. That way, by the time I did post, I knew what to expect, and I ended up being somewhat pleasantly surprised, instead of taken aback.
My photography skills have improved drastically since last October (not that I'm *good* now, but I'm not awful as often, lol)--and that is DIRECTLY attributable to several people on this forum, three I can think of specifically. Of those three, two are the exact sort you are referring to, who can "seem" very harsh and critical.  In fact, I admit, I really thought twice about ever posting a photo because of some of the "brutal honesty."
But those two "immature types who simply can't be decent when giving criticism" have been two of the most helpful, encouraging, inspiring people I've had the pleasure to interact with.

There ARE some here who are harsh for the sake of being superior; there are also some on here with personal vendettas and chips on their shoulders. There are some, as has been mentioned, who give out this harsh criticism but then their own work doesn't stand up to the quality they claim.

But there are many--including those who are above mentioned as "immature types"--who have significant talent and are more than willing to spend their time helping those who need it...IF they are willing to work at improving!

Charlie, David and Ken: THANK YOU for taking your time to help ME improve! Your advice has been awesome, your criticisms helpful and your encouragements inspiring. Oh, and your sarcastic wit and sometimes brutal honesty has made me feel right at home!   I consider each of you not only "experts" but Friends.

Now, the rest of you...carry on with your bickering.


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## pixmedic (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> charlie76 said:
> 
> 
> > So in that sense, fear of the gurus has made be improve my game.
> ...



well, to be fair..some of the people you might call the biggest a-holes, are also the ones that offer to show the OP how to correct their photos, or how to shoot it properly. not everyone here that carries a big stick is unwilling to help. now, you might equate that to beating someone up, then teaching them how to fight properly. sounds kinda barbaric..but the one that actually does the learning might be appreciative of that knowledge either way.


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## slackercruster (Jul 28, 2012)

Nothing wrong with being critical. Just try not to inject too much ego in it.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> charlie76 said:
> 
> 
> > So in that sense, fear of the gurus has made be improve my game.
> ...



The only legitimate photography "gurus" I've known personally would NEVER refer to themselves as such. Or offer critique with the "I'm an expert, you should listen to me, rookie" tone.


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## pgriz (Jul 28, 2012)

The person who is closest and dearest to me gives me free advice all the time.  Some I accept.  Some I ignore.  And often, the advice I ignore comes and bites me hard on the a$$.  Why is the advice mostly good?  Because she knows me, my strengths and weaknesses, and is motivated to make me a better person, and because she is insightful and pretty wise. 

There is also an acquaintance who we've known for a long, long time.  She also dispenses free, copious quantities of advice.  Her advice is safely ignored, as she seems to use advice-giving as a form of breathing exercise.  Once I realized that her advice can and should be taken as entertainment, it was much easier to deal with it.  Part of the problem with her advice, is that it periperally touches on what I/we do but for the most part it is feel-good stuff that does not show any insight into the situation of the advice-receiver.

And then we have the internet, where our images of advice-givers are built up from textual (and occasionally images) postings.  Which by their nature, convey maybe 5% of the sublety of human language and communication.  Ans since people also tend to build up "personas" on the internet, we can never really be sure if the person we think we are interacting with really has the attributes that they are projecting.  Like making maple syrup, you need to filter out the crud that falls in, and then you need to boil it down a lot to extract the goodness.

What we share on the internet is mostly opinion, some good facts, some bad facts, some posturing (occasionally lots of that!), and some samples.  What validates an opinion as useful or not?  Utility, insight, actionabilility and background.  After a while, it becomes clearer which sources give, on the balance, good (or at least better) opinions.  As for the rest?  The noise/signal ratio is not always favorable, and when it becomes static, you change the channel.


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## pixmedic (Jul 28, 2012)

the thing is...this is an internet forum. If someone posts a photo, ASKING for C&C, and they aren't happy with the results, they are just as free as the rest of us to pack up their photo and go home. I've heard we have an ignore feature. if someone isn't happy with the way someone is speaking to them or anyone else, they are just as free as the rest of us to put that person on ignore and not have to hear it again. and we all can go about our happy little day oblivious to the verbal diarrhea that seems to pop up every now and then. personally, I would never put anyone on ignore.  you cant watch this kind of drama on any TV show, and this is FREE!!


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## invisible (Jul 28, 2012)

Charlie, I don't know if this is a kiss and coddle forum, but I wanted to say that your photos on this thread are all pure amazing. Don't pay attention to the negative comments.​


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2012)

sm4him said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > mommyof4qteez said:
> ...



Sharon... All I can say is :hug::!


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 28, 2012)

I am not very good at sugar coating things, so in general, if I respond to a thread it is fairly direct.

Actually, I think I am probably harsher with 'good but not great' photos than I am with snapshots.  For a snapshot, I will either not respond at all or provide one thing that could have made it better.  No reason to go more in depth because the poster doesn't have the knowledge necessary to apply all of the concepts that would be needed.

Now for the 'good but not great' or the 'this would be exceptional except...', I usually nit pick and tear them apart.  Not because they aren't good photos, but because my photos are generally somewhere in that range and sometimes it is difficult for me to see what I could have done better.  That is why I post them for C&C.  To get a different perspective and feedback on things that I may have missed.

So, I guess we go to the Golden Rule...I treat others the way I wish to be treated.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 28, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> So, I guess we go to the Golden Rule...I treat others the way I wish to be treated.



What if someone is a masochist?


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## rokvi (Jul 28, 2012)

I stayed on this forum simply because I saw a few, direct no nonsense critique. That is what Im after. I already know what I like about a photo. Its what my inexperience cant see that I need to be informed about.


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Bynx said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



This confirms it.  I'm QUITE certain that you're either a professional troll, or just kinda "not nice".  I put more stock in the troll theory.

(I've softened that *quite *a bit so the mods won't lock the thread... please  *do *read between the lines.)


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 28, 2012)

bentcountershaft said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > So, I guess we go to the Golden Rule...I treat others the way I wish to be treated.
> ...


I don't see how that would apply.  Since I am not a member of your secret little club and sub-forum, I assume there is some backstory, but it is not one I am interested in.

I will continue to give harsh critique to the photos that I think the OP has put in enough work to deserve it and is ready to recieve it.  For the rest, I will continue to ignore.  I am not sure how sexual gratification even comes into this conversation.


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## o hey tyler (Jul 28, 2012)

manaheim said:
			
		

> a professional troll



Whats the pay scale like for that?


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## pixmedic (Jul 28, 2012)

bentcountershaft said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > So, I guess we go to the Golden Rule...I treat others the way I wish to be treated.
> ...



Make it hurt so bad, 'cause it feels SO good when you stop!


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2012)

o hey tyler said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All the free anger your black soul can absorb.


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## Sw1tchFX (Jul 28, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> You know.. it had gotten to where I just ignore certain types of photographers... even though they need the most help!
> 
> I ignore them, because I am afraid I will be *banned* if I am honest.. even if I not rude about it!
> 
> ...


Avoid the critique sections and focus on the gear sections.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 28, 2012)

Kerbouchard said:


> bentcountershaft said:
> 
> 
> > Kerbouchard said:
> ...



No back story, just a pun on how someone might want to be treated.  It was meant to provide humor for everyone, not just the so called secret club.  Which is kind of a paradox in that most people that are assumed to be in this secret club are the only ones that don't know about it.


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## Derrel (Jul 28, 2012)

pgriz said:


> The person who is closest and dearest to me gives me free advice all the time.  Some I accept.  Some I ignore.  And often, the advice I ignore comes and bites me hard on the a$$.  Why is the advice mostly good?  Because she knows me, my strengths and weaknesses, and is motivated to make me a better person, and because she is insightful and pretty wise.
> 
> There is also an acquaintance who we've known for a long, long time.  She also dispenses free, copious quantities of advice.  Her advice is safely ignored, as she seems to use advice-giving as a form of breathing exercise.  Once I realized that her advice can and should be taken as entertainment, it was much easier to deal with it.  Part of the problem with her advice, is that it periperally touches on what I/we do but for the most part it is feel-good stuff that does not show any insight into the situation of the advice-receiver.
> 
> ...



*So well-written it deserves a re-post via quote! Pgriz....you must be descended from Aristotle!*


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > charlie76 said:
> ...



And, to be fair, there are plenty whose critiques contain nothing but criticism, and nothing remotely resembling help or advice...


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Bynx said:
> ...



It seems as though you like to pick and choose your "brutal honesty".

I don't care if you think I'm a troll or not.

Speak your mind; if you've got a thought, post it. Man up and say what's on your mind.

You've failed to illustrate how anything I've said is incorrect...


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## pixmedic (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



I can find no flaw of falsehood in that statement, and I totally agree.  but that's what the ignore button is for.  :mrgreen:


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...



Pick and choose... when giving it?  So I'm brutal with some and not with others?  Err... well, yeah.  Not everyone needs brutal honesty.  You want me to be brutally honest with Mish on her flower pics?   I mean, come on.  I'm not going to walk up to Martin Scorcese and tell him that his movies are really lacking... nor am I going to have the balls to tell him how great I think he is.  T

elling someone who's really good what you think of their work is pretty laughable.  If they're that good, you're in no position to judge them either way.  You are only in a position to be carried off by their work.


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

manaheim said:


> elling someone who's really good what you think of their work is pretty laughable.  If they're that good, you're in no position to judge them either way.  You are only in a position to be carried off by their work.



It must be a sad existence; being here only to tell people how bad they are, and not compliment those who are very good.

Oh, and I've never been "carried away" by someone's work. I don't even know what that means, but it sounds really silly...


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > elling someone who's really good what you think of their work is pretty laughable.  If they're that good, you're in no position to judge them either way.  You are only in a position to be carried off by their work.
> ...



Yup. Troll.

You're quite good at it, too, but I'm wise to your little game.

One can o_nly wonder_ at why you had "personal issues" with one of the mods at the forum you were *banned *from.


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2012)

manaheim said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > manaheim said:
> ...



And wonder is all you'll get to do, because you're hardly significant enough to share the details with.

Oh, and just calling someone a "troll" without pointing out why is stupid. You all but admitted that you have no interest in telling someone who posts good work that their work is good, so how is mentioning that trolling? As for asking about being "carried away", I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say that.

Not addressing points that are brought up, and just calling someone a troll is, in fact, trolling itself...


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## Derrel (Jul 28, 2012)

You two have made my three front-row tickets to this weekend's p!$$ing match at the Civic Arena totally worthless---now people can see one here for FREE! Stop it! I need to unload these tickets!!!!


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## Kerbouchard (Jul 28, 2012)

yawn...


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## sm4him (Jul 28, 2012)

Wellllll, Charlie, I guess you got your answer....

definitely NOT all kissing and coddling!


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2012)

Just tryin' to make you some coin, Derrel!  I hear the D600 is coming out, and I figured you'd like to have the complete set!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2012)

sm4him said:


> Wellllll, Charlie, I guess you got your answer....
> 
> definitely NOT all kissing and coddling!



But this has nothing to do with critique really.. and it doesn't really help anyone. We have one or two very negative people that chimed in.. and sort of stole the focus of the entire thread. I guess that is what Troll's do... it is unfortunate though. It is typically an attention seeking device for those with inferiority complexes... or so I am told! I think these links have information that definitely cover some of the actions we have see here! A common thread in Trolls appears to be immaturity, and a lack of self worth. Sad, really! 

Comment Trolling Has A Psychological Explanation | TechCrunch

BBC News - Trolling: Who does it and why?

Troll Psychology: A discussion on internet bullying | Daily Grind


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## Overread (Jul 28, 2012)

And I think that is quite enough for now. 
Time to head out, clear your heads, get a walk and take some photos I think.


----------

