# Need opinions on copyright issue!



## butterflygirl (Dec 1, 2007)

Hey all! I need some opinions! I recently took photographs for a client at her mother's home in MI and she lives in CA. She just e-mailed me to ask if she could purchase the rights to one photograph of her daughter to make Xmas cards. 

I told her I could make her some, because I do that with my business, but she doesn't want that. She wants to make her own with Kodak. If I do this, what should I charge? I'm still not sure if I want to or not, since if she gets the full resolution image she can print whatever she wants. But if I do decide to do this I want to be fully compensated...in this case what would you do and what would you charge?

They already paid the session fee and still want to order other prints, but I don't want to scare them off! Please help!

Thanks so much!


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## skieur (Dec 1, 2007)

butterflygirl said:


> Hey all! I need some opinions! I recently took photographs for a client at her mother's home in MI and she lives in CA. She just e-mailed me to ask if she could purchase the rights to one photograph of her daughter to make Xmas cards.
> 
> I told her I could make her some, because I do that with my business, but she doesn't want that. She wants to make her own with Kodak. If I do this, what should I charge? I'm still not sure if I want to or not, since if she gets the full resolution image she can print whatever she wants. But if I do decide to do this I want to be fully compensated...in this case what would you do and what would you charge?
> 
> ...


 
Looking at Kodak Christmas cards since that is what she is looking at, determine the average size of prints that are used.  Then do NOT give her the full resolution image, but rather charge a different price for different resolutions.  In order words, a good resolution for a small image at....whatever cost, a better resolution for a medium image at a higher price, a good resolution for a larger image.

skieur


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## butterflygirl (Dec 1, 2007)

Thanks that helps! I really had no idea where to go with this one!


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## jstuedle (Dec 3, 2007)

You could sell her a release of the image for a specific quantity of images to be used for a specific purpose. Spell it out on a release form and include the image edited to the appropriate size. Include your copyright in a lower corner of the edited image.


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## Skyhawk (Dec 3, 2007)

butterflygirl said:


> Hey all! I need some opinions! I recently took photographs for a client at her mother's home in MI and she lives in CA. She just e-mailed me to ask if she could purchase the rights to one photograph of her daughter to make Xmas cards.
> 
> I told her I could make her some, because I do that with my business, but she doesn't want that. She wants to make her own with Kodak. If I do this, what should I charge? I'm still not sure if I want to or not, since if she gets the full resolution image she can print whatever she wants. But if I do decide to do this I want to be fully compensated...in this case what would you do and what would you charge?
> 
> ...



My advice? Don't charge her anything. Instead, ask her to refer friends, relatives, business associates, etc to you. 

In this day and age of digital, people can take the photos you've done for them, scan them and get a passable quality print. Keep in mind that most folks don't know an f-stop from UV filter--if the picture is sharp and the colors are pretty, they're thrilled!

You have to stop and ask what kind of value are you providing your customer if you give them prints for a fee much higher than they would pay at the local CVS or Walgreens kiosk.

I know a number of photographers here in the Dallas area who simply charge a "sitting fee" for portrait type pictures and explain that the fee also covers them being able to have the pictures printed anywhere at any time in any amount. If they don't do that, they're out of business--we got a lot of starving photographers in Dallas. 

Build and maintain your business by building and maintaining a reputation for fairness, quality and a willingness to work with your customers.

Jeff


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## butterflygirl (Dec 3, 2007)

Skyhawk said:


> My advice? Don't charge her anything. Instead, ask her to refer friends, relatives, business associates, etc to you.
> 
> In this day and age of digital, people can take the photos you've done for them, scan them and get a passable quality print. Keep in mind that most folks don't know an f-stop from UV filter--if the picture is sharp and the colors are pretty, they're thrilled!
> 
> ...



I see where you are coming from here, but I'm not sure if by only charging a sitting fee any photographer would make a decent living. 

Professional photographers do charge more than CVS or Wal-Mart because they provide a superior service. If a customer simply wanted to take some photographs with their own camera and print them at a kiosk they can certainly do so - I assume they go to a photographer to get a better quality service and/or prints.

I'm not saying your idea is wrong - by all means,you should definitely work with customers and build an excellent reputation - most work comes from word of mouth. But I'm not sure I wouldn't charge ANYTHING. In my opinion, when you give something away it tends to lose value in the customers' eyes. 

(Ok I'll step down of my soap box  ) 

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! I've already learned so much here!


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## craig (Dec 5, 2007)

I personally do not see a copyright issue. My clients pay dearly for high res images. That includes the right to do as they please with the photo. Of course I always know their intentions. If you start playing games with copyright issues it will eventually bite you back.

Love & Bass


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## nossie (Dec 5, 2007)

What about an apologetic large qoute?..  "I'm sorry but for a release to a private entity the cost per full res image for 1 year is $499"


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## Allsmiles7282 (Dec 5, 2007)

I wouldn't sell them to her.  I've found that you have to set policies (i.e. you make the Christmas cards or she doesn't get to use the picture YOU took) and you have to stick to them.  If a client really wants something, they'll pay for it and that is how you make money.  Plus if you allow her to print them, not only are you missing out on a free advertising chance (placing your business name and website on the back) but you will also have junky prints being handed out in your name.  

I wouldn't do it if I were you but I'm not you, so do what you want, just my .02


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## JIP (Dec 5, 2007)

Well really you are either going to sell her the rights or she is going to go and scan them.  I don't know about what to charge but it is better than making nothing else on the image.


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## jstuedle (Dec 6, 2007)

craig said:


> I personally do not see a copyright issue. My clients pay dearly for high res images. That includes the right to do as they please with the photo. Of course I always know their intentions. If you start playing games with copyright issues it will eventually bite you back.
> 
> Love & Bass



I am a little confused by your statement and the caviler attitude to personal copyright rights. When you charge dearly for your high resolution files, do you provide a written release to use as they please? 
1) By charging a "dear" price, you have bypassed the concerns voiced in this thread, therefore not advising or helping with there individual concern. 
2) If the client has no such release, they still are breaking the law, even if unknowingly. By them thinking it's OK to do so, the attitude in the public that "It's my face, I own the rights to it and images of it" is only being perpetuated. 

I can only hope they understand copyright and you have provided a written release of your rights to the images. 

But, let's say one of your images of your client was to make it to the cover of Time magazine. Have you any recourse? Any rights to that image? And if you do, how would you benefit from that image if the client has implied rights, but not written rights to use that image as they please? 

Rights to your images are like a 401K. Give away the rights, and you forfeit any ability to sell or profit from your labor investment in the future. Do as you please, but the law is on our side until we choose to give away the fruits of our labor.


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## butterflygirl (Dec 6, 2007)

Thanks everyone for your replies! It's so helpful!

She did in fact decide to let me create her Christmas cards for her - for which I am thrilled! So I don't have to deal with the copyright issue - whew!

But I think in the future I won't be selling any rights away *wink


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## craig (Dec 6, 2007)

jstuedle said:


> I am a little confused by your statement and the caviler attitude to personal copyright rights. When you charge dearly for your high resolution files, do you provide a written release to use as they please?
> 1) By charging a "dear" price, you have bypassed the concerns voiced in this thread, therefore not advising or helping with there individual concern.
> 2) If the client has no such release, they still are breaking the law, even if unknowingly. By them thinking it's OK to do so, the attitude in the public that "It's my face, I own the rights to it and images of it" is only being perpetuated.
> 
> ...



The fruits of my labor are paid for by the client once. Done deal. I am not "cavalier" enough to think my shot will ever end up on the cover of Time. If it does who cares? Now all of a sudden I am supposed to say read the contract you owe me 5 grand? To me that is no way to do business.

Love & Bass


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## emogirl (Dec 18, 2007)

Well, unfortunatey, in this day & age of computers/scanners etc...sometimes you have to make some things available...because you know they will try to steal it anyway....like buy a print from you, then go to the kiosk and make copies!  Really, what are you going to do, run around to every store and watch everyone making prints at kiosks? ..no...so I had to follow suit with other togs in my area and offer up the CD of high res images.
  Most people order their prints thru me, they know they are geting the best quality and consistent quality that way.  However, for the 'scrapbookers' and what not, they want to buy the CD of high res...i have no problem with that...99% of the togs in my area sell their images that way, and do not do prints at all!  So, i had to offer it too.  I charge $20 per image as a high res. file and give them a better bargain when they buy the all the images.  I have based this price on many years of "typical' past sales/profits.

YOu need to find out what works for you and charge a fee you are comfortable with and make sure you make money at it!

(by the way, i do not advertise that they can buy just one image, otherwise, they might just get THE SHOT and not order otherwise), so i just offer up the pictures as a bundle on CD.  Its when i get asked for..."can i use this shot on my wedding invite or cd's or xmas cards etc... that I say its' a $20 user fee.


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## jstuedle (Dec 19, 2007)

Copyright laws are written for a reason. Spelling out your rights and there rights is not an optional in my opinion. To not do so is encouraging the developing mindset that once "I" have a copy, anything goes. I simply ask, why give up your rights to copyright protection? Soon you won't have those rights.


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## AprilRamone (Dec 19, 2007)

I was under the impression that when I sell the "rights" to the images to the clients, I am selling the right for them to make their own copies prints etc...for their own personal use and for making copies for their friends and family.  Not that I was giving up MY rights to the image.  
Perhaps selling them the "rights" isn't the correct terminology and I need to change that?


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## JDS (Dec 19, 2007)

I believe if you sell the rights, they own the image, end of story.  However, you can _license _the use of the image to them for whatever price and whatever use is agreed upon by both parties.

That's the way I understand it anyway.


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## Nimitz (Dec 21, 2007)

JDS is correct.  Once a photographer pushes the camera shutter they own the copyright on that image forever, unless they decide to give it up.  Licensing is the method used to allow someone limited rights (spelled out) to use the photograph (quanity of prints, time, etc) but the photographer still retains the copyrights to the image so they can use it for other purposes (license it to someone else to use, etc).  This is how photographers make money on stock photography.  A single image they own the copyright to is licensed to multiple clients for multipe purposes with each client paying the photographer a license fee to use his image.

A professional photographer would be crazy to give up the copyright on any image they own without extreme compensation - the Time Magazine cover is a great example - you never know what someone in the future may want to use one of your images for ...


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## Skyhawk (Jan 10, 2008)

jstuedle said:


> Copyright laws are written for a reason. Spelling out your rights and there rights is not an optional in my opinion. To not do so is encouraging the developing mindset that once "I" have a copy, anything goes. I simply ask, why give up your rights to copyright protection? Soon you won't have those rights.



I recently retired as a managing director of a $1 billion international advertising agency. Enforcing and recovering damages on copyright laws for businesses who misuse your images is one thing; enforcing and recovering for normal, everyday people is another.

Think Napster. All their threats and coercion about illegal downloading of music and their announcment of lawsuits. They were--legally--in the right. But the incredible negative PR that resulted when amongst their lawsuits was a twelve year old with Down's Syndrome and a seventy-year-old grandmother on a fixed disability income just about sealed their fate.

In other words, you can win the battle--and in the process, die in the war.

Running/operating a business requires common sense and compromise; all the moreso in highly competitive and subjective businesses such as photography, production, advertising, etc.

You can play firm and hard with businesses who purchase your product in order to help themselves make/increase profits. But playing firm and hard with walk-in private citizens will ultimately hold you back in many cases.

Jeff


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## nicfargo (Jan 10, 2008)

I have no problem giving the rights to images to clients, but of course they have to pay.  I make a substantial amount of money on my prints, and from what I can tell most photogs do.  If I just let someone print their own, I lose out a lot of money.  I then decided to charge the average amount of money I make on prints for the copyrights to a clients images.  For the sake of this post, I would have asked the woman how many xmas cards she was printing.  Then I would have charged her the same amount for a limited copyright that I would have charged for her to go through me to print (thus pretty much forcing her to go through me and then I don't worry about the copyright issue).


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## ilfordrapid (Jan 11, 2008)

In selling a limited copyright, how can you tell that they are going by the guidlines set up? Right now, I am not sure if I would offer any kind of copyright to a private person. But of course I would be nice about it. Business is different I am presently working on a project where one of my landscapes might be used on the bottle of a new line of wine. I will be making my presentation to the winery owner in the spring. I would not accept any less than $2000.00


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## ilfordrapid (Jan 11, 2008)

It is my understanding that when you sell a copyright, it is no longer yours to use any more. Therefore if I sell a copyright to a private person it is going to be worth my while to do so. It depends on how bad they want it I guess.


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