# Potential Client Issue



## lennon33x (Sep 15, 2014)

So here's the scoop...

I took on a client (a veterinarian specialist) who wanted a group shot of all 5 doctors in the practice, about 25 shots throughout the clinic, and 3 head shots of the managerial staff. No biggie, right? Well, not so much.

I went in to speak to the office manager about everything. Come to find out, it was going to be near impossible to get all 5 doctors in the same place at the same time, which meant compositing. Not an issue. However, I explained to the manager that the editing process for that is much more detailed and involved than a standard edit. I explained that I would have to draft an addendum to the original contract stating all of the new stipulations. My original contract included me covering 50% of all rental gear for the first visit (I rented for a week) and travel for the first two sessions out (it was going to take 2 sessions to get all 5 doctors in the composite). So I drafted the addendum to the contract and had it state that the office was going to be billed at $x/15 minutes. Also I included travel in the first two sessions and each subsequent session would be billed travel. Sent it to them, and then I had it signed and returned. Deposit was also given.

The first day, the doctors were not on time, one was not dressed and prepared for photos, and it took me over 3.5 hours to get the 3 doctors that were ready for shooting in a position to shoot (I set up near a CT scanner and used it as a prop). Additionally, I had to get extremely creative as their business was not as busy as usual and I needed to stage some shots. Several days later I returned for the second session. Captured the final two doctors, and they only saw one patient, therefore limiting me to what I could capture for their "procedural" shots. 

Over the course of several weeks, I edited the pictures. The composite took me nearly 6 to 6 and a half hours, but I only counted about 5.5 (I included the first 30 minutes in the original contract). I sent it to them, and they approved it (as a matter of fact, complimented it). I finalized the invoice for the rental and for the composite and sent it to them. 

They finally replied several days later with "I have to get approval for that check." Then tonight, I received an email asking to see all of the images. 

Here is some key info:
1.) Contract clearly states that all clients need to arrive on time and ready for shooting
2.) Addendum clearly states what the hourly rate is for the composite; what is included in the composite process; why a composite is necessary for the group image

How would you handle the situation if the email response is "We think you charged too much for the work you've done"

?


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## vintagesnaps (Sep 15, 2014)

Did you get a deposit? quote them the total cost before you took the photos? Did the contract state anything about the number of photos to be provided or previewed for them to make selections?

Usually photos aren't provided til payment's been received. If you give someone your photos, they're gone, there's probably no getting them back and who knows if you'll get payment since they seem to be postponing getting you a check (which ought to clear I think before you provide the photos).


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## lennon33x (Sep 16, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Did you get a deposit? quote them the total cost before you took the photos? Did the contract state anything about the number of photos to be provided or previewed for them to make selections?
> 
> Usually photos aren't provided til payment's been received. If you give someone your photos, they're gone, there's probably no getting them back and who knows if you'll get payment since they seem to be postponing getting you a check (which ought to clear I think before you provide the photos).



Oh I knew I forgot something. They're only proofed, nondownloadable images with my watermark slathered across it  they're viewed through shootproof. Yes I quoted them for cost, how much time it would take and yes they paid a deposit


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## tirediron (Sep 16, 2014)

"I'm sorry you feel that way, but as a skilled professional yourself, I'm sure that you understand what seems quick and easy to the layman often takes a great deal of time, effort and skill.  Such is the case with producing composite portraits.  I can appreciate that the cost may seem high, but the same is true when I bring my dog in for an innoculation and pay you $100 for thirty seconds of your time."


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Sep 16, 2014)

^^^ at least something to that effect.


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## sm4him (Sep 16, 2014)

John's response is just about perfect. Clear, concise and professional.

But it might also be a good time to post THIS awesome video again, because really, although you may want to put it in nice, thoughtful, professional wording like John did, the actual answer to your question of how to respond is:
F*** you, Pay me.
You've ALREADY done the work. Work that THEY agreed to. Their process for check approval is not, at this point, your concern.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 16, 2014)

So, maybe something along these lines:

To Whom it May concern:

I realize you folks are just vets, and not real doctors.  However I simply assumed that someone in your office had enough of an education that one of you might actually be able to read and understand a simple contract before you signed it.  Sadly it seems I overestimated you, and for that you do have my most sincere apologies. 

The contract you signed did clearly spell out all the terms and conditions and you did agree on the price prior to the invoice being submitted.  However in the interest of fairness I did discuss this matter at some length with other industry professionals and they agree that in a situation like this the most proper response I can give you is:

F*ck You, Pay Me.

Warmest Regards,


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## tirediron (Sep 16, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> So, maybe something along these lines:
> 
> To Whom it May concern:
> 
> ...


 You forgot to add, "And finish off by flinging a warm, steaming pile of monkey-dung at them!"


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## vintagesnaps (Sep 16, 2014)

Monkey dung aside... lol 

Maybe you need to resend them a copy of the contract with a reminder of what they signed and agreed on since you specified the cost. So far it sounds like they have proofs for the deposit. Maybe give them a timeframe as to when you expect payment, and that photos will be provided once payment is complete.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 16, 2014)

tirediron said:


> You forgot to add, "And finish off by flinging a warm, steaming pile of monkey-dung at them!"



Well I didn't want it to be over the top "customer servicy".. lol


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## The_Traveler (Sep 16, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Maybe you need to resend them a copy of the contract with a reminder of what they signed and agreed on since you specified the cost. So far it sounds like they have proofs for the deposit. Maybe give them a timeframe as to when you expect payment, and that photos will be provided once payment is complete.



In addition to this, I would ask them a question to give them an entry into how to respond.

Perhaps something like. "There seems to be some issues. Since the accepted contract and addendum covered every question about time, costs and deliverables, I'd like to clear up any concerns so I get my check and you can get your images. 
Perhaps I can call your office and we can clear up this situation in a short conversation."


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## lennon33x (Sep 16, 2014)

Update:
Now, the amount of deliverable images that I included were 3 head shots, 25 procedural pictures, and 1 group shot. While I shouldn't feel that I have to nitpick on a contract so much as to include a "Creative License" clause, in retrospect I should have (to an extent). I personally selected the best 30(ish) images that I understood (by conversations with the office manager) provided what they wanted to display to their clients (compassion, integrity, high-quality medicine, etc.). They apparently weren't pleased with the ones I selected and I received this paraphrased response via email: 

"The [doctors] aren't happy...with the procedural shots....they were hoping you understood what they wanted...such as shots of them doing [x, y & z]...they do not wish to spend extra money...they are beginning to regret using your services..."

So I did what I knew to do best and called the office manager directly. While I wanted to go tell them where they should really go, I knew that to make this whole thing wash over easier, I made sure to be cordial and polite. I first looked to see if the office manager had even viewed the gallery (which she didn't - meaning that she had written the email without viewing the gallery and truly determining if the doctors were going to be unsatisfied). I called and told her that I uploaded the 270 images (most unedited) and explained to her that the shots they wanted were all in there (with the exclusion of a certain procedure they wanted, but would have required me to stay longer during the day of shooting). I explained that the images contain a blood pressure, an EKG, a heart monitor placement, patient recovery, inpatient hospitalization, examinations by every doctor, and ultrasound by every doctor, etc, etc. As part of the deal, I included travel (like a fool - live and learn). This meant that I would travel 1 hour each way for two shoots (not to mention the pre-shoot meeting), which totaled 6 hours of travel. I explained that I billed them for work that was done and that they agreed to in the contract and addendum. I also explained that most photographers charge travel, and that I was saving them some money. Her tune changed entirely once I told her what shots were included and also what the images showed. 

This is one of those scenarios that I feel mislead by the client, and it's turning out to be a pretty big hassle. Truthfully, it's almost better to just let them select 50-60 images, edit them and be done. 

As always, your feedback is more than appreciated.

by the way, my portrait clients have never been like this. I'll take them any day.


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## lennon33x (Sep 16, 2014)

robbins.photo said:


> So, maybe something along these lines:
> 
> To Whom it May concern:
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how far I would get with this, it sure feels good to say it out loud


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## The_Traveler (Sep 16, 2014)

I might relax the process by letting them pick from a gallery of what they like but I would never ever give them more than the contract called for.

Then you immediately get labelled as a soft touch.


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## robbins.photo (Sep 17, 2014)

reavesce said:


> I'm not sure how far I would get with this, it sure feels good to say it out loud



Lol.. well that's a plus then.


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## lennon33x (Sep 29, 2014)

Update:

I received the check for the work. Finally. And then on to this...

So nearly two weeks after showing them the gallery of 260 images, they finally responded with this:
"The doctors asked that you come out 1 more time but when you do I will need to be right by your side to see each shot you take to see if it is something we can use on our new website or in our marketing materials. They did not see any really good procedural shots from all the ones you have online already. They are looking for professional in-motion, working pictures but where you can tell who the doctor is and while working with patients who don’t look too restrained, etc.. They specifically said… no pictures of pets having their blood pressure taken on the floor or of objects like blood, needles, fluid bags, miscellaneous equipment parts, or anything else that might offend or cause clients to worry. Let me know what day you can come out."

What the f? Out of 270 images you couldn't find 30 images, let alone one? All of these requests are absolutely ridiculous. None of these requests were made prior (verbally or in writing). 

So for those of you interested in reading about the craziness that will ensue...here is my reply. 
"[Dear Office Manager]-

I have received payment for the composite, and you are currently paid in full.                                                                                                                              

As I know that the doctor's have concerns about cost, I did want to be up front with you. Based on our contract, there would be additional travel charges accrued. This cost is approximately $[x]. 

Furthermore, while I do understand that the doctors would like me to take more pictures, my schedule for October does not have any availability as I have since booked up other engagements and clients. It would be November at the earliest. Therefore, because it falls after the deadline in the contract, all work will be billed at the agreed upon rate of $[x] per 15 minutes of work as outlined in the agreement (see "Deadline Clause" in Photography Agreement Addendum). The approximate estimated amount of editing time is about 4-6 hours. Therefore, in order to complete this project, the approximate cost is $[x], excluding taxes. This is under the assumption that all of the pictures are taken during this one shoot. It is my understanding that the doctors are reluctant to pay for any further services. That being said, based on my current schedule, shooting and editing time would fall outside of the current deadline. I submitted the full gallery of 269 images on September 16, almost two weeks ago. While I do understand that there are other obligations of the doctors, I feel that a concern of cost would have prompted a sooner response. 

It is my philosophy to give every one of my clients the absolute best images possible. That, in turn, results from my creative license, or the ability to take images as I believe incorporates the feeling, story or purpose behind the image. Part of this creative license is the ability to work freely. Having someone to review images as I take them inhibits this creative license, and I therefore won't allow it. 

In addition, during our initial meeting on August 8, you discussed the needs of photographs for the clinic. You also expressed at that time that you did not want pictures of blood, needles, syringes, or images that displayed privacy information for clients. You explained that you wanted images of the doctors performing tasks, including ultrasounds and examinations. In your email on September 16, you expressed that the doctors expressed regret in using my services, and as at that point, they had not viewed any images containing the specific list of procedures (which were not requested in writing, nor in the contract). After reviewing the images, there are several images of each doctor/or staff members performing the exact procedures your doctors had "regrets" about.

Additionally, up to date, I have spent almost 40 hours on this project alone. I have spent over 20 hours shooting, setup and travel and approximately 16 hours editing, re-editing, submitting, etc and additionally paid for half of the cost of the lens rental. The standard practice is to have the client pay in full for the rental; but in order to honor my original estimate, I paid a portion of this fee. At my current rate, this is approximately $[about 25% less than industry standard] that would directly to the client.  And based on several estimations, the industry standard rate for work that is this time intensive is approximately $2500-3000. Therefore, I have undercut my cost significantly, and have given your clinic a dramatic discount from market rate. I have traveled three separate times to shoot and to meet with your staff, and therefore feel generous in my fees that I have charged. This estimation of work excludes the almost 7.5 hours of work I invested into the editing process of the composite, which your doctors approved (and I subsequently charged only 5.5 hours, again to help honor as close to the estimate as possible). 

Based upon our initial emails, the task of a project this large was not ever completely conveyed, and only during our initial meeting did the needs of the doctors become apparent. Furthermore, while still offering 269 images, none are sufficient.

At this time, it is in my professional judgment that the desires and needs of your doctors are inconsistent with any service that I can offer you further. I have met (and have exceeded) my portion of the Photography Agreement. In an effort to facilitate the completion of this project, I am offering one of the two following options:

1.) I will allow your doctors to select 60 images (35 more images that agreed to by both parties in the Photography Agreement) and I will edit them at no further charge. Once the editing process is complete, I will send a copy of the images on a CD via FedEx to your practice. Included will be your composite image of the doctors. Once receipt of the package is made, I will consider this project complete. 

2.) I will refund you in the amount of $100 via a check and only the composite image of the doctors will be made available through download, or through a CD sent via FedEx. No further work will be done on this project. Once receipt of the check is made, I will consider this project complete. 

Understand that while most photographers wouldn’t choose to refund any money, I must offset the cost of money lost, cost of business, and overhead, in addition to travel and travel expenses. Therefore, the maximum amount of refund that I can offer for these services is $100.

It is disappointing that even though you chose my services based on my previous work that you and/or your doctors regret using my services, and that not one singular image could be found from the 269 images that are available. It has become apparent that no matter what effort, or how much time I personally invest into this project, that my services will not satisfy the desires of your doctors. Therefore, once this project is complete, it is my recommendation that you find another photographer that can better suit your needs.

I appreciate the opportunity and look forward to your response."


While I know that many of you may not completely agree with rates, or my means of offering some sort of "severance," I'm looking forward to the response regarding how I handled it. 

Thanks


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## AlanKlein (Sep 29, 2014)

You seem to be getting enough legal and business advice.  So how about taking a moment for a joke this all reminds me of?


_A pipe burst in a doctor’s house. He called a plumber. The plumber arrived, unpacked his tools, did mysterious plumber-type things for a while, and handed the doctor a bill for $600.
The doctor exclaimed, “This is ridiculous! I don’t even make that much as a doctor!”
The plumber waited for him to finish and quietly said, “Neither did I when I was a doctor.”_


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## vintagesnaps (Sep 29, 2014)

Did you realize you said at the first session you had to stage shots and at the second session there was only one patient so you got limited photos of procedures? That might be why you didn't get the photos they wanted. (I reread the beginning to remember what this was about.)

Not sure how you could have done it differently other than going more than twice doing shorter sessions, calling ahead to see if they're busy to be able to get more procedural photos, etc. (which would be hard to know other options in scheduling if you haven't done this before).

And they wouldn't have known to suggest how you might have wanted to schedule since they aren't photographers. Maybe it seemed to them you were there awhile or took a lot of photos and aren't realizing what the schedule and procedures were like those days.

Doesn't seem anyone was necessarily at fault and maybe with the travel time, being able to schedule in a different or more flexible way wouldn't have been workable. Hope you can work this out with them.


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## gsgary (Sep 30, 2014)

They don't get images until they pay


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## lennon33x (Sep 30, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Did you realize you said at the first session you had to stage shots and at the second session there was only one patient so you got limited photos of procedures? That might be why you didn't get the photos they wanted. (I reread the beginning to remember what this was about.)
> 
> Not sure how you could have done it differently other than going more than twice doing shorter sessions, calling ahead to see if they're busy to be able to get more procedural photos, etc. (which would be hard to know other options in scheduling if you haven't done this before).
> 
> ...



The staged photos and the day they only had one patient were the same day. I actually shot on three different occasions. 

I talked to a couple of other vets tell me that they refuse to do business with this clinic because of business stuff like this. They apparently have the history of trying to get something for nothing. They even had the audacity to ask if I can come shoot another day for free. This clinic makes well over 5-6 million dollars a year (I have friends that have verified this). So to ask me to take such drastic cuts in my pay is insulting and disrespectful. I always want to do what is best for my clients, but I refuse to become a push over and be exploited. The contract stated two days of shooting (which I did), three weeks for editing, three headshots, 1 group composite of the doctors, and 25 behind the scenes shots, which the office manager specified what shots she didn't want at the original meeting. It is unreasonable to expect me to eat my cost and travel to come out a FOURTH time because you "don't like the shots." All of this has gotten way out of hand because I gave the client control. Lesson learned I guess.


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## fotomonkey (Sep 30, 2014)

tirediron said:


> You forgot to add, "And finish off by flinging a warm, steaming pile of monkey-dung at them!"


Excuse me, but that's a trademarked response.


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## Mr. Innuendo (Oct 3, 2014)

From what I can gather:

1. You had a contract.
2. You fulfilled your responsibilities under said contract.
3. They want you to shoot some more for free.

I wouldn't shoot for free, and I would refund them nothing. Furthermore, your last response to them is a manifesto. It needn't be that long. Much of what's written is unnecessary.

Stick to the facts of the case...


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## sm4him (Oct 3, 2014)

So, you think that an office manager who didn't even bother to look at the photo options before the first email (and probably hasn't really *looked* at them even now, other than a quick glance over 260 thumbnail images maybe) is going to bother to read that whole email response? 

You could have summed that whole email up in way less time:

"Screw off. You are hereby fired as my client."


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## JohnnyWrench (Oct 3, 2014)

Mr. Innuendo said:


> From what I can gather:
> 
> 1. You had a contract.
> 2. You fulfilled your responsibilities under said contract.
> ...





sm4him said:


> So, you think that an office manager who didn't even bother to look at the photo options before the first email (and probably hasn't really *looked* at them even now, other than a quick glance over 260 thumbnail images maybe) is going to bother to read that whole email response?
> 
> You could have summed that whole email up in way less time:
> 
> "Screw off. You are hereby fired as my client."



What these guys said. Don't give them any more images than the contract calls for and don't refund them 1 cent. You got paid, give them what they paid for and tell them to have a nice day.


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## DslrGuy (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm really curious as to why you would even bother a refund for all the grief you were given? It sounded like you fulfilled your end of the contract and they were still a pain to deal with.


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## Gary A. (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm late to this party, but I toss in my two cents anyway ... 

Firstly, halfway through this thread I'm thinking five doctors, it only takes one prima donna to upset this apple cart. One who expects his/her photo to look like Clark Gable or Marilynn Monroe. 

Now the new rules ... I'd work with them as opposed to against them. I'd give them a discount on the second shooting ... just to show that you want to be accommodating and not a jerk. (We know you're not a jerk, but when doctors don't get their way they think you're a jerk.) Doctors tend to be know-it-alls, (my best friend is a physician), and these vets thought they could manage the art for their website ... but after they jumped into the pool they realized they didn't know how to swim well and that the pool was pretty deep. But now they're higher on the learning curve and hopefully better able to deliver their specific wants/needs/desires to you. Hopefully, you can spend some time to review their website and see the holes they want filled with art. 

While the contract will protect you here and now, future business is based upon good will, accommodation and not counting nickle and dimes ... from both sides.

I know that they are a pain, but just put on a happy face and work with the five prima donnas ... maybe they let you put up a photo credit on they're website to match your selfless, client come first, accommodating business practice.

Gary

PS- I'm not saying to lose money on the deal ... you are totally in the right per your contract ... but for whatever reason they are not satisfied with the outcome. Yes, it is all they're fault for thinking they know graphic design ... but if you cut them a little slack ... maybe all-well-that-ends-well. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising.
G


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## The_Traveler (Oct 5, 2014)

No refund.
That is tacitly admitting mistakes on your part.
I would respond much more succinctly, (none of that appointment stuff, they don't care and it doesn't mean anything)

Dear .......,

The time estimates and costs as expressed in the contract and signed by you are the total extent of my obligation and that has been fulfilled.
It is your office's responsibility to state your requirements clearly and be certain that they are understood as expressed in the contract. It is also your responsibility  to make the required subjects and environment available for photography on the dates and times we had arranged.

Even though I have expended more time and effort than originally planned for, your office did not either express its needs clearly nor make the circumstances available.
On each of the scheduled shooting days, the doctors were not prepared at the time set and there was only one patient available during each of the the scheduled shooting times As it was, there was nothing said during the actual shooting that led me to think that you had wanted other or different shooting situations.

I have been generous to you; in point of fact, the cost to your practice is significantly less than what I should have charged for the time expended. As I said previously, my responsibilities in this contract have been fulfilled and I cannot be responsible for a constantly moving target and changing requirements based on unexpressed needs.

Any further services will need to be covered by a new contract and a new estimate of costs.


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## Gary A. (Oct 5, 2014)

The_Traveler said:


> No refund.
> That is tacitly admitting mistakes on your part.
> I would respond much more succinctly, (none of that appointment stuff, they don't care and it doesn't mean anything)
> 
> ...



That's pretty good. I'd drop the last sentence and say ... "While Photos R US have fulfilled our contractual obligations with _XZY Vets are Best_, you have expressed that you are not completely satisfied with the final product (see above). Photos R US takes pride that at a minimum, our clients are pleased and satisfied with the images we deliver. At this point, Photos R Us feels it would be best to mutually chart a course between XZY _Vets are Best_ and _Photos R US_ which will enable _Photos R US_ to best accommodate all your photographic desires in a fashion that is expedient, fair and equitable for all parties.

Love and Kisses,
Photos R Us

This is a business and try to keep "I" and "me" and "you" out of your communiques. Be precise, you can identify who said what and when, but keep it all factual and objective. Remember that any/all things that are put down in writing can become a legal document. So always write to that standard.

Remember that this is all about business, don't take it personal. Even if the other party gets personal, don't go down to that level. Typically, it is worth walking away with a little less money in order to make a customer happy.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary


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## The_Traveler (Oct 5, 2014)

good points, Gary.


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## lennon33x (Oct 13, 2014)

So here's what's happened...
She read the email in it's entirety and profusely apologized. I took the second option off the table. I gave them a third option which was original contract terms. I also offered them a credit for one headshot that I am not taking. That way, it shows that they've accepted that I'm not fulfilling the original agreement. 

Sure as sh*t, they came back with original contract terms. They've picked their thirty images and about 8 of them I've already edited prior to this fiasco. So just a little bit of work ahead and then done. 

Thanks for all of your input. I'm trusting my gut next time I take on a client who seems like they're going to be a pain in the rear.


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## Civchic (Oct 14, 2014)

Good!  They tried to push you around, you pushed back, and maybe they gained some humility (one can dream).  Good job.


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