# Again...



## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 14, 2012)

"NEWTOWN, Conn. -- A lone gunman killed 26 people at an elementary school here, including 18 children, in a terrifying early Friday morning shooting spree."

&#8203;26 reported killed in Newtown, Conn., school shooting

Just sickening.


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## Mully (Dec 14, 2012)

Maybe this is something that can be taught in the schools!

*Dalai Lama Centre // Educate the Heart*
[video=vimeo;54303086]http://vimeo.com/54303086[/video]


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## rexbobcat (Dec 14, 2012)

&#3232;_&#3232;

That's the worst shooting I've heard about pretty much ever.

wtf humanity


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## Derrel (Dec 14, 2012)

rexbobcat said:


> &#3232;_&#3232;
> 
> That's the worst shooting I've heard about pretty much ever.
> 
> wtf humanity



Virginia Tech massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...April 16, 2007, on the campus of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia, United States. Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people and wounded 17 others[SUP][1][/SUP] in two separate attacks, approximately two hours apart, before committing suicide (another 6 people were injured escaping from classroom windows)"

This guy today??? NBC News is now reporting that "one of his parents has been found murdered in their New Jersey home"...

In a somewhat similar, yet dissimilar vein...

"The *Beslan school hostage crisis* (also referred to as the *Beslan school siege* or *Beslan massacre*)[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] of early September 2004 lasted three days and involved the capture of over 1,100 people as hostages (including 777 children),[SUP][5][/SUP]ending with the death of over 380 people. The crisis began when a group of armed separatist militants, mostly Ingush andChechen, occupied School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia (an autonomous republic in the North Caucasus region of the Russian Federation) on 1 September 2004. The hostage-takers were the Riyadus-Salikhin Battalion, sent by the Chechen separatist warlord Shamil Basayev, who demanded recognition of the independence of Chechnya at the UN and Russian withdrawal from Chechnya. On the third day of the standoff, Russian security forces entered the building with the use of tanks, incendiary rockets and other heavy weapons.[SUP][6][/SUP] At least 334 hostages were killed as a result of the crisis, including 186 children,[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP] with a significant number of people injured and reported missing."


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 14, 2012)

Derrel said:


> This appears to be the gunman  http://www.facebook.com/rlanza



His profile picture is getting something like 1,000 shares per minute.


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## runnah (Dec 14, 2012)

Horrifying.


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## Derrel (Dec 14, 2012)

Live updates via the world wide web from multiple TV networks are available on this web site:

USTREAM - You're On - Broadcast Live Streaming Video, Watch Online Events, Chat Live, send a Tweet, follow on Facebook, MySpace, record your Live Shows


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## JackandSally (Dec 14, 2012)

Kids.  They were just kids.


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## KmH (Dec 14, 2012)

uly 22, 2011: Confessed *mass* killer Anders Behring Breivik kills _*77*_ in Norway in twin attacks....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559285/a-look-at-the-worlds-worst-mass-shootings/

What if it had been a requirement that the school administrators/teaches be armed and trained in the use of deadly force?


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## texkam (Dec 14, 2012)

Not wanting to get political. I agree with Mully. There's something to be said for teaching morality in the schools and morality is different than religion, as I know some very moral aetheists and agnostics. People should learn to do the right thing, not because there is a reward or punishment attached, but rather because it is just the right thing to do, to have an open heart.


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## ratssass (Dec 14, 2012)

KmH said:


> uly 22, 2011: Confessed *mass* killer Anders Behring Breivik kills _*77*_ in Norway in twin attacks....
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559285/a-look-at-the-worlds-worst-mass-shootings/
> 
> What if it had been a requirement that the school administrators/teaches be armed and trained in the use of deadly force?



...thats not the answer,i don't know what the answer is,but i'm sure not comfortable w/that.


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## ratssass (Dec 14, 2012)

texkam said:


> Not wanting to get political. I agree with Mully. There's something to be said for teaching morality in the schools and morality is different than religion, as I know some very moral aetheists and agnostics. People should learn to do the right thing, not because there is a reward or punishment attached, but rather because it is just the right thing to do, to have an open heart.



...and wholeheartedly agree with this


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## runnah (Dec 14, 2012)

KmH said:


> What if it had been a requirement that the school administrators/teaches be armed and trained in the use of deadly force?



If not with guns at least pepperspray and tazers.


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## Rick58 (Dec 14, 2012)

My wife and I are a blended family with 6 kids between us and 9 grand kids. We look at our grand kids and think they don't even know how to "play" like kids used to play. Some say it's the media, even going as far as using the 3 Stooges and the cartoon "roadrunner" as examples. I grew up with both of these "kids shows" but have never felt the need to hit someone on the head with a hammer.

But then I walked into my sons house and my 8 year old grand DAUGHTER was playing some western video game were she would walk up to cows and horses and shot them. The blood would fly, the animal was dead and she would laugh. THAT was scary. I could see where hours upon hours of this could desensitize a young mind. I think it different simply sitting back and watching compared to 'pulling the tigger" themselves. Like any "OLD man" my concerns were dismissed.


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## runnah (Dec 14, 2012)

Until they can find and cure crazy this will continue to happen no matter what gets banned.  Blame who or what you like, but we will never know the true cause of this person's dementia. 

It is happening more because there are more people on this planet not because of anything that is produced by the media or by society.

The only way to prevent this type of thing is education.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 14, 2012)

It's just heartbreaking. 

Having a first grader myself and an eighteen month old, I can't begin to imagine the pain the parents must be feeling. 

This was an act of truly unbridled evil.


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## PhotoTish (Dec 14, 2012)

Just beyond understanding how anyone could do such a thing.


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## Derrel (Dec 14, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > This appears to be the gunman  http://www.facebook.com/rlanza
> ...



Well, it turns out the NBC News reporter jumped the gun and reported the name of the guy's *BROTHER*, who was being held for questioning! so, NBC reported the WRONG MAN as the shooter!!!! "Ryan" is the BROTHER of the shooter, according to info I have gathered from NBC at 2:05 PM west coast time.


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## ratssass (Dec 14, 2012)

i think the media sensationalism is quite disturbing also.imagine asking a 7 yr old a question like "did you see any of your friends,as you were led out of the school".An ambulance chasing parasite!!
  That was about 1:30 pm,i saw that.Roughly 4 hrs after this started.


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## sleist (Dec 14, 2012)

I lived the next town over for 10 years.  Pretty surreal to see a place I know so well involved in such a horror.
Assault rifle used on children.  Even God must lose faith ...


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## TheFantasticG (Dec 14, 2012)

Rick58 said:
			
		

> My wife and I are a blended family with 6 kids between us and 9 grand kids. We look at our grand kids and think they don't even know how to "play" like kids used to play. Some say it's the media, even going as far as using the 3 Stooges and the cartoon "roadrunner" as examples. I grew up with both of these "kids shows" but have never felt the need to hit someone on the head with a hammer.
> 
> But then I walked into my sons house and my 8 year old grand DAUGHTER was playing some western video game were she would walk up to cows and horses and shot them. The blood would fly, the animal was dead and she would laugh. THAT was scary. I could see where hours upon hours of this could desensitize a young mind. I think it different simply sitting back and watching compared to 'pulling the tigger" themselves. Like any "OLD man" my concerns were dismissed.



I've Grown up playing those types of games and watching the same cartoons and shows. I haven't committed mass murder nor will I. Runnah is right. It is education and the others are right that it is morality plays a big factor. Then again if something is chemically wrong in the brain education might not be able to overcome it.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 14, 2012)

TheFantasticG said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah. There is no ONE thing to blame for this kind of thing. It's a culmination of many ingredients. 

As far as Ricks grand child not knowing how to play...and playing a violent video game. You can blame the parents. Don't blame it on the video game.


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## mishele (Dec 14, 2012)

Common response is to try to understand or push blame in a direction when these things happen. Guns are not the problem, violent games, or even parents, the fact is you have a person that is completely off their rocker. What made them that way? Most likely it's in their making. Something that was there from birth that made them capable of such horrible acts. From what I read, and it could of changed since then, this person had mental issues.


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

A side question. How many of you (parents) teach your children that they have the infinite right to defend themselves. In cases like this, nearly 100% of the victims are found in a submissive posture. Multiple shooters have been interviewed and ask why they killed so many people and the answer was simple....."No body stopped me." As gruesome as the subject is, you have to teach your children to defend themselves. Kids are taught never to lay their hands on anyone and THAT will be the instinct they follow in a traumatic environment. If a kid had the presence of mind to throw a desk instead of cowering down, lives would be saved.

I don't mean to rant, but I'm pretty passionate about peoples lives. Please give some thought to teaching your children about how to react when the unthinkable happens. Sometimes it's as simple as hearing from a parents mouth.


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## mishele (Dec 14, 2012)

Do you teach your children how to deal w/ the 99.9% of the situations that they will come in contact w/ in life or do you teach them about the .1%? 
Again, no one is prepared for these kinds of situations.


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

mishele said:


> Do you teach your children how to deal w/ the 99.9% of the situations that they will come in contact w/ in life or do you teach them about the .1%?
> Again, no one is prepared for these kinds of situations.



I'm not trying to go all extremist or anything, but I disagree, you can be BETTER prepared to react to these situations. And when it pops up on the news that these tragedies happened, I remind my sons that they can do something about it instead of just sit there.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 14, 2012)

Yeah, because your first instinct when faced with a crazed gunman, is definitely to approach him, to punch his lights out.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 14, 2012)

Perhaps not many people have the instinct to put their personal life and limb in danger for the potential benefit of others' safety.  I'm sure,however, there are those people out there still.


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## John27 (Dec 14, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> TheFantasticG said:
> 
> 
> > Rick58 said:
> ...



+1.

My undergraduate is in psychology and in several classes we spent a lot of time discussing this subject.  My degree is certainly not a post-grad level, but what I have learned is that these games desensitize, they don't create.

It's very true, backed up by studies, and countless-ly tirelessly researched that violent media (video games, TV, you name it.  Even news reports of crimes that don't actually show anything can have this same effect) can have a desensitization effect, it can make a person less likely to hesitate.  It can take a person from holding a gun, to pulling the trigger.

In one such (very unethical) study from the 70's, two groups of children were researched for aggression and violent responses.  One group was placed in a room, one at a time, and provoked and intimidated by a researcher.  The other group was shown graphic footage from WWII and Viet Nam, footage of crimes, boxing matches, etc.  In both groups, the ratio of children who reacted violently when provoked by the researcher was about the same.  Some kids cried and cowered, others got angry and screamed or even hit the researchers.  However, in the group that had witnessed the violent media, those who were agressive were much more agressive.  They punched, kicked, bit, they became agressive quicker, and reacted more violently.  They were also the only group to use weapons, chairs, books, clipboards, etc.  Whatever they could find.  Their violent outbursts, in addition to being more violent, also lasted longer.

So the point is, in this and similar studies, the violent media didn't really increase the number of individuals who reacted violently to stress, it did, however, increase HOW violent they were when stressed.

They do not, however, change anyone's personality.  At least, studies haven't shown that.  Millions of people absorb violent media and few of them end up harming someone.  The scary part is, someone who is unwell, might be less likely to harm someone if not exposed to violent media, but in the end, we should treat the disease, not mask the symptoms.

People need to stop being so afraid of dealing with issues.  Parents don't want to believe their kids are struggling with emotional or psychological issues, and people think counselling is only for almost-divorced couples and psychopaths.  If we could show a little respect and love to our fellow man, and be there for people when they struggle instead of stigmatize them for having emotional or psychological issues, I really think we could make a difference.  Again, treat the disease, not the symptom...


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Yeah, because your first instinct when faced with a crazed gunman, is definitely to approach him, to punch his lights out.



LOL, Give it some real thought. What advice would you give someone on this situation?


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

AgentDrex said:


> Perhaps not many people have the instinct to put life and limb in danger for the potential benefit of others' safety.  I'm sure there are those people out there still.



That's the problem! Life and limb are ALREADY IN DANGER.


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## mishele (Dec 14, 2012)

Regardless of what happened today, I'm goin to keep teaching my son that violence isn't the answer. I can't prepare him for what happened today. (my son is 6)


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## oldhippy (Dec 14, 2012)

EIngerson said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > Do you teach your children how to deal w/ the 99.9% of the situations that they will come in contact w/ in life or do you teach them about the .1%?
> ...



I think the defend youself idea is a crock of sh*t. I can not and will not imagine 6 year old kids defending..the poor things were horified..get real..most adults run.
Secure our schools,theaters,and public places.. I've got 8 kids and 23 grands..we need to protect them. Not teach them to get in harms way.just MHO..Ed


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## bentcountershaft (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't know.  I don't know what I would do if I were there, I don't know how I would feel if I had a child at all let alone if my child was there and I certainly don't know of any answers.  All I know is that in my 37 years the 6 o'clock news has never made me cry before.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 14, 2012)

John27 said:


> People need to stop being so afraid of dealing with issues.  Parents don't want to believe their kids are struggling with emotional or psychological issues, and people think counselling is only for almost-divorced couples and psychopaths.  If we could show a little respect and love to our fellow man, and be there for people when they struggle instead of stigmatize them for having emotional or psychological issues, I really think we could make a difference.  Again, treat the disease, not the symptom...


THIS!

I don't feel like typing a whole lot at the moment...and this subject...oh man!

This is the problem. People don talk about their problems. We have been taught to keep our stuff hidden. Gays are bad, thus they are forced to hide. Yeah, that has NO effect on a person. Couple that with a growing sense of entitlement (caused by the "everyone is a winner" movement?) of people today. Bad stuff is never our fault, we blame it on something else. 

I'm having some absinthe and just lost my point.
Goodbye.


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

oldhippy said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > mishele said:
> ...




Ed, 

I'm not saying a 6 year old is ready or capable of hearing it. No one, to include myself, can't imagine their children in that environment. But...

These incidents are increasingly common in the news and everyone recognizes them as horrible and tragic. I disagree with the idea that nothing can be done and these things can't be prepared for. (I never said prevented, just that the damage could be minimized) I whole heartedly disagree with the idea "self defense is a crock of S$%t". I respect everyones opinion and stance on the subject though. The thought of these shooting sprees is disturbing and grotesque, but they happen and they happen in our home towns. 

Just thought I would ask and see where it went. 

Eric


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## EIngerson (Dec 14, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> John27 said:
> 
> 
> > People need to stop being so afraid of dealing with issues.  Parents don't want to believe their kids are struggling with emotional or psychological issues, and people think counselling is only for almost-divorced couples and psychopaths.  If we could show a little respect and love to our fellow man, and be there for people when they struggle instead of stigmatize them for having emotional or psychological issues, I really think we could make a difference.  Again, treat the disease, not the symptom...
> ...



Good call. lol. Have a great night.


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## sleist (Dec 14, 2012)

All the monsters in the world have been created by abusing a child in one way or another.
The abused become the abusers.  And so it goes.
It will never stop until we stop the abuse.

I imagine if we heard the killers story a week ago, he might have been considered the victim.  Now there are 28.

This isn't about violent games, or movies, or access to guns.
This is about the sickness that's passed on by abused children that grow up to abuse children that grow up to abuse children ...
And a society that did nothing.


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## Mully (Dec 14, 2012)

Somehow in my heart I believe photographers can make a difference, we just have to choose to.


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## Pallycow (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't like to get involved in these type of talks.  I do however love the idea of simply what I call "holding up a mirror" to many when I'm trying to show them how stupid they are.  

anyway, I saw such a post on FB earlier and I thought I'd share, no idea who the creator of the image is, but here is the link.  If it works.  To me, this sort of thing does what I like to do, hold up a mirror.  Whether or not you believe in God or not, or practice religion or not is irrelevant....the message is what matters.  To me anyway, so I thought I'd share.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/644188_526552814037754_1413004826_n.jpg


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## Pallycow (Dec 14, 2012)

To me, it is dumb to place blame in anyone but ourselves.  People want to blame guns, blame tv, blame games, blame God.  Stop blaming, start doing...or shut up.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 14, 2012)

Don't know about you guys, but the emotional impact of all this was far greater than even September 11 for me. 

There were so many deaths on that day it was/is hard to even begin to fathom. But with this story, it feels so much closer to home. 

This is just a small American town of 30,000. A classroom full of helpless, innocent kids in the crosshairs. Lives shattered forever. No sense. No reason. No one to fight back or punish for the heinous crimes. And all just a handful of days before Christmas. I mean, these parents probably  had their presents bought already . 

It's been eating away at me and like bentcountershaft, news usually doesn't hit me on such a personal level. But this one I believe does for all of us.


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## Pallycow (Dec 14, 2012)

Rotanimod said:


> Don't know about you guys, but the emotional impact of all this was far greater than even September 11 for me.
> 
> There were so many deaths on that day it was/is hard to even begin to fathom. But with this story, it feels so much closer to home.
> 
> ...



That's kinda what sucks about it.  We just have to accept it.  We can't punish anyone, we can't do anything about it, it's done.  There is no retaliation.  Just accept what has happened has actually happened.  Unlike 9-11, just to use your reference...there was retaliation, action.  etc.  (not to get into that event...so please don't tangent on it)

but yeah...It's horrifying, and even those of us not personally affected can't do anything about it but basically give a WTF?  I mean... kids for ****s sake...kids.  WTF?    Enough said.


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## Mully (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't know who here prays but if you do keep all those families in your prayers... they need prayers.  God Bless!!


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## mishele (Dec 14, 2012)

No matter the who, what, or why these horrific actions were taken today, I will wake up tomorrow and have no regrets. I'll take my son into my arms and have a better appreciation for every moment I have w/ him. =) If anything, maybe that is what we need to take away from this.


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## kathyt (Dec 14, 2012)

This just breaks my heart. I see trauma all the time, but I just can't wrap my head around it when it is completely preventable. I am so saddened by todays events and for the families of the victims. Hug your loved ones tight and be kind to one another.


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## Steve5D (Dec 15, 2012)

runnah said:


> The only way to prevent this type of thing is education.



That won't do it...


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## Steve5D (Dec 15, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Gays are bad, thus they are forced to hide. Yeah, that has NO effect on a person. Couple that with a growing sense of entitlement (caused by the "everyone is a winner" movement?) of people today. Bad stuff is never our fault, we blame it on something else.




What does homosexuality have to do with this?


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## John27 (Dec 15, 2012)

The fact is tragedy happens.  We as humans have such a hard time accepting this fact because it scares the CRAP out of us, but I'll say it anyway,

Bad things happen.  Sometimes you can't stop it, sometimes we have no control.

It's true though.  Ban the guns?  He'll make a bomb out of fertilizer and a Ryder truck.  Education and psychotherapy for everyone?  They'll be so demented they will manipulate the therapist into believing they are having a breakthrough, and plotting to add them to the victim list.

In the end, sometimes, really really bad things happen, and we can debate about what could have stopped it.. or we can just hug our kids, say I love you to our friends, tell a stranger it's okay, and move on.  Sometimes we just have to be human, and show the world that we care about them, even if we can't solve all their problems.


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## Steve5D (Dec 15, 2012)

Pallycow said:


> To me, it is dumb to place blame in anyone but ourselves.



Blame belongs on the shoulders of one person, and one person only. I'm pretty sure that person is neither you nor I.

If you want to shoulder some of the blame for this POS going off the deep end, have at it. Just know that, by doing so, you are choosing to not hold him as responsible as he actually is...


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## Steve5D (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm in an exclusive little club. I'm the parent of a child who was directly affected by a school shooting.

My daughter was a freshman at Santana High School, in Santee, California in 2001. Two students were killed by a fellow student. 

There were people wanted to blame bullies. There were people wanted to blame guns. There were people who wanted to place blame anywhere they could, as long as it wasn't on the shoulders of the kid who actually pulled the trigger.

At the end of the day, blame resides in one place, and in one place only...


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## LaFoto (Dec 15, 2012)

This is so sad! 
I know what it feels like to lose a elementary school-age child only days before Christmas, thankfully I don't know, though, what it is like to lose your child in that violent, senseless manner... 

Somehow I just cannot believe that anyone can do something as terrible "just like that", or because he/she played too many cruel video games, or watched too many cruel films on TV, or had access to a weapon. 

Things in that person's life must have gone frightfully wrong for a long, long time. A horrible act such as the one that just happened has a story. There is a prolonged period of build-up involved before it "explodes" in this terrible, frightful, totally unjust manner. 

And no kind of education, deprivation of access to fire arms, preparation on the side of the victims (who can you prepare for anything as insane as this?) - nothing could have stopped what took so long in its coming. I don't know where in the life of this 20-year-old things went wrong, and I am NOT trying to excuse neither this individual, nor his deed. But I still believe that no one is simply born this bad - something made him lose his mind to this horrible extent. 

Probably - if anyone had looked closely, paid enough attention - whatever did go wrong in the attacker's life could have been seen. But it was probably considered as "family business", "nothing I want to get involved in", or "...not too bad". 

That's my guessing - what do I know?
I can't even fathom what my niece feels like inside who's severely afflicted by depression and schizophrenia (for example)...


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## cpeay (Dec 15, 2012)

I train for this type of thing a few times a year and pray that it never happens.  Four years ago I stopped a car driven by a mad man.  He had 11 firearms inside his car with thousands of rounds of ammo.  He was on his way to a highschool to take care of a gang problem.  After he was arrested and while I was searching his car for more guns, I found his diary.  Inside it he wrote about killing gang members at the school he was headed to.  He planned to sit on a hill that overlooks the highschool and shoot them with a sniper rifle.   My daughter attended the same school.  I had never been so frightened before in all my life.  I hate to think what would of happened if I did not stop that car.


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## unpopular (Dec 15, 2012)

we'd all like to imagine he was some kind of sociopath.

perhaps what's most disturbing is that in this social media era, we have a record of who he really was. A pretty normal-looking kid with normal looking friends. I blame our healthcare system, something certainly went very wrong here.


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## Steve5D (Dec 15, 2012)

unpopular said:


> I blame our healthcare system, something certainly went very wrong here.



I blame him, mentally unbalanced or not...


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## unpopular (Dec 15, 2012)

there is a difference between accountability and responsibility.


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## jkzo (Dec 15, 2012)

Really sickening


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## EIngerson (Dec 17, 2012)

Here's a little read about the guy that taught me to think the way I do. Agree or not it's interesting. 
Active shooters in schools: The enemy is denial


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

"Stupid cowards, that's all they are.  They cannot take responsibility for their lives and need to project their self-hate on to others violently."  That's the one side of my thinking and because of my status as a Gemini (seeing two-sides) I see this side of the argument as well, "None of us asked to be born who we are.  Some of us were born with the ability to take responsibility.  Some of us were not so lucky.  If people were born with a mental illness, do we blame them for their actions as a result of that illness?  Can we blame the heavily-autistic girl for defecating herself when she doesn't fully comprehend what she is doing? As such can we blame the individual who was born malevolent and doesn't fully comprehend how to be benign?"

Seeing both sides of a door is highly confusing for me.  Any ideas about that?  

Do we assume this coward was level-headed who went out and killed?  Do we assume this person was  unfortunately mentally-ill who went out and killed?  In my mind, I cannot fathom a situation where a level-headed person would go out and kill like this(unless they were drugged with scopolamine as some of the conspiracy nuts will say.  Haven't heard that theory?  Imagine a powerful anti-gun lobby secretly hires a clandestine group to target an individual, dope him up with a drug that supposedly makes that person susceptible to the whim of others, give them the suggestion to go out and kill with a gun.  They then try to pass legislation that bans guns with public outrage over the incident allowing it to go through unchallenged).   

This person was either born mentally ill, somehow became ill during their life or something snapped right before the unfortunate incident.  That or they could have been, like I mentioned ,a self-centered, lilly-livered, yellow-bellied, coward, mother-something-or-another!  

There's no way we can figure out who it's going to be.  So love and help your neighbor to your left and right, whether rich or poor.  Do something good for a random stranger at a random time.  Like has been said in this thread already, make sure the last thing you say to a loved one each time is that you love and care for them deeply.  As I love all of you for allowing me to be here and spout of my sometimes nonsensical meanderings.


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## EIngerson (Dec 17, 2012)

I'll never try and get inside the head of an individual that can commit such a crime. I don't want or care to. I've seen things in my life I wish no other human to see. Especially my sons and my family. If I can shield them from it I will. If not, I want them as prepared as humanly possible, both physically and mentally. 

So I guess to answer your question, no, I don't have any ideas about both sides of the door. There's right and there's wrong and NOTHING, no illness or mental disability that will ever excuse what that deviant did. 

Life provides all of us with different views on things I suppose. I hope that none of you ever have to deal with a loss like that. Pretty deep for a photography forum.


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## unpopular (Dec 17, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Blame belongs on the shoulders of one person, and one person only. I'm pretty sure that person is neither you nor I.



But what will this accomplish? People who commit these crimes are not bound by social shame! They nearly always know what they're doing is wrong, at least from the larger social standpoint. They don't think "well, nobody is going to blame me ... so I'll do it anyway!" that's not how sociopathy works.

Everything everyone does is justified within their own head one way or another. Blaming people on a _moral_ level is inconsequential and doesn't address the problem of why it happens before it does.


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2012)

unpopular said:


> there is a difference between accountability and responsibility.


No.  No there isn't.  You do the crime, you do the time.  The whole concept of dimished responsibility is nothing more or less than an excuse.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

tirediron said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > there is a difference between accountability and responsibility.
> ...



Is that concept for those with the capacity to think clearly or does it also cover those without the ability to fully comprehend the consequences of their behavior?  Do you we lock-up the mentally ill in prisons or in a mental institution that can keep track of their mental state?  How do we deal with severe mental issues?


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## unpopular (Dec 17, 2012)

tirediron said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > there is a difference between accountability and responsibility.
> ...



so there is no scenario in your opinion that the mind can respond to stimuli in a an inaccurate way leading to decisions which are based on faulty information? If this is what you're saying, science says otherwise. Including physiological evidence.

I also think you've been watching too much Law and Order. People who are found criminally insane don't just go home, temporary insanity is seldom argued successfully. The "criminally insane" typically spend more time in prison hospitals. They don't have the benefit of a clear prison term with a definite ending.

And BTW - those facilities are often not the cushy private hospitals you're thinking they are. I've been a patient at a state facility, and while they are better than they used to be, they're still not comfortable. Unless you're into cockroaches. I doubt very much the prison ward is Club Med.


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## runnah (Dec 17, 2012)

Trying to stay out of this but here we go...

The problem is that the current state of mental health care in this country woefully under funded. The funding gets lumped in with every other social service, including welfare. So when people get on their soap boxes and say cut social spending, mental health care gets cut along with that. Many people out there need constant supervision to make sure they don't act out and take their medication. When funding gets cut, they get turned loose. 

My mother worked for a large mental hospital that had it's funding drastically cut forcing them to close. What happened to the patients? The more dangerous were transferred but for the most part many were just told to leave and that was it.

Gun control isn't the issue, mental health is the issue. Spending more time trying to stop the carpenter rather than banning the hammer.


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## tirediron (Dec 17, 2012)

unpopular said:


> ..so there is no scenario in your opinion that the mind can respond to stimuli in a an inaccurate way leading to decisions which are based on faulty information? If this is what you're saying, science says otherwise. Including physiological evidence.


I didn't say any such thing.


unpopular said:


> I also think you've been watching too much Law and Order.


As far as I know, I've never watched any "Law and Order".



unpopular said:


> People who are found criminally insane don't just go home, temporary insanity is seldom argued successfully. The "criminally insane" typically spend more time in prison hospitals. They don't have the benefit of a clear prison term with a definite ending.


Fair comment


unpopular said:


> And BTW - those facilities are often not the cushy private hospitals you're thinking they are. I've been a patient at a state facility, and while they are better than they used to be, they're still not comfortable. Unless you're into cockroaches. I doubt very much the prison ward is Club Med.


And you know what I'm thinking because.... 

I never suggested in any way that there are scenarios in which the human mind can't make a "faulty" decision, nor did I state that teleivision justice bears any resemblance to the real thing, and I definitely did not say that mental health facilities are "cushy" or "Club Med". All I said was that if you have the capacity to commit the crime, you must be held accountable, and a person's [alleged] mental state should NOT have a bearing on the sentence he/she receives. It should definitely have a bearing on WHERE that sentence is served, but not on the nature or duration. Whether the warders in a particular institution wear white uniforms or blue is immaterial, although from what (admitedly little) I know of physciatric/mental detention facilities, I suspect I would much rather spend time in a regular prison any day.


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## John27 (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on the mental health/responsibility/accountability issue but...

I think it's important to note that "Not Guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect" isn't the same as "Not Guilty".  In fact, a person who gets the 'insanity plea' will, on average, spend twice as long in a lockdown mental health facility than they would have in prison.  It's hard to convince a court you're crazy.  It's even harder to convince them that you are not.  I did a few case studies on these in a psychology class and one was a man convicted (Not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect) of sexual assault towards a coworker.  Claimed he was having a breakdown due to his failed marriage, and sexual deviancy became a psychotic outburst.  Now, normally, that particular crime maxes out at 15 years, with the average sentence being 7 years, AND, the average time between conviction and release being about 5 years (with a large number being released in less than 18 months even with a 10 year sentence).  At the time of this case study, he had been in a mental health facility for 22 years.  Locked in a cell, 3 hots and a cot.  Once a person is incarcerated under an insanity plea, the state worries that once out, they will be off of their medication, or might be faced with new environments that they don't receive in prison.  They are worried that synthetic instigators won't show them how they would ACTUALLY react if TRULY provoked.  So the catch 22 results in them, often times, dying in a mental health facility.  They don't just get of scott free, again, the AVERAGE is 2x the typical incarceration if convicted.  Often times a defense attorney will only push for it if the death penalty is on the table; a person found insane (fun fact, insanity is a legal term, it's not recognized in psychology or psychiatry) as far as I know, cannot be executed anywhere in the United States.

Again, that's not a comment on whether or not accountability for the mentally ill is the same, just trying to clear up a Law and Order perpetuated misconception that insanity is the same as not guilty.  

On a side note, I cannot imagine any person of normal mental health committing any of these crimes.  It's normal, and probably smart, to have a level of distrust for your government.  But it's not normal to load a Ryder truck full of explosives and blow up a federal building.  It's normal to have a fight with your parents once in a while, it's not normal to kill them, then go to the school your mother teaches at and wipe out a classroom.  I just do not see anything other than mental illness here.  Although, I'm not so sure the Aspergers has anything to do with it.  Aspergers isn't known to cause aggression or any sort of psychopathic responses like that.  Aspergers is basically ADD on steroids.  It's not a severe behavioral disorder like some of these media personalities are making it out to be.  My younger brother has aspergers and is a successful member of the US Navy and gets along great with everyone.


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## KmH (Dec 17, 2012)

runnah said:


> Gun control isn't the issue, mental health is the issue. Spending more time trying to stop the carpenter rather than banning the hammer.


Absolutely!  :thumbup:


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

Mental health is definitely an issue but I don't believe it's necessarily THE issue. I believe a faltering society is also a big issue.  From glorification and sensationalism of crime through media (books, television shows, movies, news reports, etc.), to the desire for fame through "reality" TV and the youtube phenomena, to technologies that have the ability separate us (personal computers, "phones" and other portable media devices, etc.) from each other.  The technologies that could bring us together seem to be at the moment driving us apart more than anything.  Sure, a lot of social networking sites can and seem to me to have the mirage of bringing us together but is our time at these places meaningful?  

Some may think that a photography forum is not the place for such issues to be discussed, that these are the topics mental health "professionals" should be debating.  I believe everyone should be talking together about this and other issues (regardless of place and person).  It seems there is a tendency to keep stuff under the table (be it through stigma, embarrassment, denial, etc.), however, this should definitely not be hid away.   

Have we turned away from each other so much that the only time we get together is in times of crisis?  I agree that mental issues should not be a determining factor in whether a person is charged with a crime or not.  I believe it should way heavily upon sentencing.  Do we send them to prison (granted that they don't stalemate that through suicide) where they will most likely have no attention paid to their state-of-mind, being just another criminal?  Should they be sent to a medical prison where they don't necessarily get the help they need either, just a longer sentence?  What kind of mind-set in a person must there be to commit a crime in the first place?  Are there more people in prison and on the streets with issues that we seem to ignore?

Should we train early-ed educators into reading the signs of mental health imbalances so they can get the kids the help they need sooner?  Are they already trained to do this?  What about bullying?  What type of mind-set does a person need to have to become a bully?  A friend of mine brought a gun to school because the administration and faculty let some kids bully over and over without a proper consequence (suspension is a ridiculous punishment and does not nothing positive and in general seemed to make it worse at our school because we would get payback once they came back).  If that gun had not been jammed, there would have been a school shooting in my town.  As is, there was a horrible shooting twenty-seven miles from here in Red Lake.  Do we as a society have a vested interest in keeping our kids safe?  By which I mean, do we make sure our own kids have the support they need?  Do we just disregard our own who may have issues and pin it on others while keeping a lid on our own childrens' mental health (the whole next-town-over, not in my backyard mentality)?

Did the mental health worker for the guy who shot up the theater in Colorado really warn others about it?  Did they keep it under wraps or did the people who were warned simply ignore the inevitable?  What about Columbine?  Were the "jocks" and "preps" there really mean to people as has been mentioned before?  If so, did the administration and faculty know about the cruelty?  My school knew about the bullying and little to nothing was done about it which is what set my friend off in the first place to attempt to take matters into his own hands in seventh grade with a broken rifle.  Is that what went on at Columbine/Red Lake/Virginia Tech/etc. as well?  What about the gang problem mentioned by cpeay a page ago?  Are these people being ignored on purpose or through denial?  Is there any good reason to ignore and deny that any of our children could be the next victim or perpetrator?  

Is this something we really expect the government to even think about?  With funding cuts of programs that could help keep the discussions, debates and education going while spending more on killing, is this really the body of people we want fussing around with this anyhow?  Shouldn't we, as a society, do something to help out neighbors and random strangers?  Shouldn't we as a group recognize the issues before it's too late and someone gets hurt?  Or shall we just leave it up to someone else, whoever that someone else may be as long as it isn't ourselves?  How do we even go about doing that?

That's where the internet could save us.  We can either use it to distance ourselves from each other even further or use it to pull this society, that is falling apart rapidly, back together.  What say you?


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## jaguaraz (Dec 17, 2012)

My response to these horrible shootings is that I can't keep quiet any longer.  We must have intelligent conversation in this country about gun control.  At the risk of being flamed for my stand, a boy that crazy would not have likely killed all those people with a knife or sharp stick.   In responsible democracies that severely limit the access to guns and place ongoing responsibilities on those that do have guns, the rate of gun violence is a small fraction of what it is in this country.  I'm tired of the approach that we have to tolerate these massacres because there is nothing we can do.  If we truly could remove guns from the equations, we would have far less mayhem in our streets.  

If you don't believe me, google independent research statistics on gun violence in this country.  If you have a gun in your home, you are no less likely statistically to protect yourself from harm and many times more likely to have someone you love accidentally shot, commit suicide, or commit homicide with the family gun.   The second amendment talks about a "Well-regulated militia" so we have constitutional authority to make gun ownership far more difficult and responsible.  

I've been a teacher and elementary school principal and the last thing I would have wanted in any of my school is more people packing heat!  Sorry for the soapbox but I've been apolitical on this issue too long so I will use any forum because it is what I personally can do for the families of all the innocent children in our country that lose their lives or the lives of people they love to gun violence.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

I can see your point sir, however, I would like to argue that taking guns away will not eliminate mental illness and its capacity to commit harm.  A gun cannot be uninvented.  Taking away gun rights only takes away guns from those that follow laws (I know, it's a cliché).  I say this because I am a stoner (have been for nineteen years) and marijuana is illegal.  Making a plant illegal does not make it go away. Making a law against the plant does not stop those who would seek it to find it.  The same logic, in my mind, would follow suit with gun bans.

While I do agree that getting guns off of the streets would severely curb the amount of gun-related deaths, I disagree that the sick-minded would not turn to other means of hurt.  You mention that "...a boy that crazy would not have likely killed all those people with a knife or sharp stick..." and while definitely not debate-able concerning the amount of people that were hurt being less, any number of people hurt is too many, even if only one.

More restrictive gun laws are not going to alleviate much of anything except to give criminals, who do not abide by laws (hence the word criminal) as is, an advantage over those that do follow laws.  

We, as a society, need to pull together, more than we currently are, to provide better preventative measures (quit denying the potential capacity of our own children to commit heinous acts against society, teach gun respect, follow proper weapon safe-keeping, teach our children compassion and humility, do positive acts for random strangers, work for what we need and don't worry too much about what we want, etc.).  By no means am I saying that our societal congregation would prevent all murders, I am stating that we can join together to try and, as Barney Fife would say, "Nip it in the bud."


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## jaguaraz (Dec 17, 2012)

I can't disagree with what you said except that the supply of readily available guns actually does dry up.  Its like shutting off the water in a pipeline.  It keeps running but eventually runs out.  It is a long term solution.  There is a significant amount of research that bears on this even in states that have restricted ownership a small amount.  I totally agree that we need to address mental health issues in this country including the incredible way we expose children to gratuitous violence during their formative years!  Our crazy society allows a child to see 20,000 murders on television airwaves before the age of 18 but not a single bare breast.....  (ah such priorities....).


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## pixmedic (Dec 17, 2012)

jaguaraz said:


> I can't disagree with what you said except that the supply of readily available guns actually does dry up.  Its like shutting off the water in a pipeline.  It keeps running but eventually runs out.  It is a long term solution.  There is a significant amount of research that bears on this even in states that have restricted ownership a small amount.  I totally agree that we need to address mental health issues in this country including the incredible way we expose children to gratuitous violence during their formative years!  Our crazy society allows a child to see 20,000 murders on television airwaves before the age of 18 but not a single bare breast.....  (ah such priorities....).



The answer is simple then.  Less violence,    more boobies.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

I like that reference to violence versus breasts.  That just made my day!

I wonder what research was/could be conducted regarding gun limitation versus current quantity.  If we were to ban guns in the US, will that stop people from making their own homemade guns or importing them from outside the country (some of the weed I get is smuggled in from Canada and Mexico, not that I know who actually gets it through the borders. I just get it from middlemen who get it from middlemen who get it from middlemen, so on and so forth)?  

Though the bombs made by the Columbine killers in 1999 were basically duds, some did end up causing damage.  Will banning guns prevent mentally-ill people from designing, building and using explosives?  I know this may seem like an opposite tangent from the gun ban argument but I feel that those who would normally be able to acquire guns to cause havoc could resort to other means of destruction.  

We cannot likely ban violence off of television shows, movies, online video sources as that would be a severe encroachment upon the right to free speech, one of the main reasons our country (USA) is (could be) so great.  

What we could do as a society is limit the amount of television and what-not we view.  We can choose to become more involved with our neighbors, cities, states, countries.

Blaming violent video games doesn't seem to be the answer either.  I have my own mental issues (as each and every one of us do, admit it) but those games (Doom, Wolfenstein, Battlefield 1942, etc.) have not caused me to ever want to harm another person, EVER.  I listen to death metal as my main source of music (napalm death, cannibal corpse, obituary, deicide, etc.).  I have never wanted to harm another individual because of any "messages" in the music that others may believe are in there for that exact purpose.  I love horror movies and underground shock movies (August Underground series by Fred Vogel, ginni piggu in japan, Salo by Pier Paolo Pasolini, etc.), none of which have ever made me want to recreate them.  I'm not easily suggestible however and I realize there are others that could be.  Who ever is forcing these ill people to watch and recreate these movies/games or follow messages that may or may not be in music should be prosecuted and sent away.  Obviously no one is.  So what is the solution?  Do we add a clause to free speech dictating what is allowed as free speech or do we constantly keep an eye on mentally-ill people so they never have a chance to view/listen to music/movies that may be violent?

I'm not even really saying we start to focus on mental health issues.  What I'm stressing (attempting to at least, as vague as it may be coming from a stoner, because apparently stoners are "brain-dead slackers") is that we get back together as a society.  We have, with the advent of the great thing called the internet, a perfect chance to either corrupt each other to the brink of death or utilize the technology to bring harmony back into this world.  I want a world where cultures are free to prosper (culture is awesome, I love learning about how people live and think), where ideas are mulled over by one and all instead of pacified and/or ridiculed.  

I hope we have plenty of time left to get to this point. Part of me is a negative nancy who thinks we are on the brink of a complete collapse.  A collapse in not just this country (USA) but world-wide (and beyond! is this the wrong time to reference Toy Story?).


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## bentcountershaft (Dec 17, 2012)

This may sound a bit silly, but I'm gonna let this idea loose from my fingers just to see how stupid it looks in black and white.

It's all about MORE.  Don't confuse MORE with GREED.  Sometimes they're related and sometimes they aren't.

More this, more that and more everything.  We all want more of something.  More money, more food more time away from work.  Even when we get the things we want, that we've waited on, there's always more to be had.  The rich get richer, the big get bigger, the fast get faster.  Everything we come in contact with is driven one way or another by MORE.  More gas, more oil, more macaroni and cheese it doesn't matter, as long as there is more.  Look at different types of people.  That ******* you used to know?  He's even more of an ******* now.  That bodybuilder that lives down the street?  More strength for him today.  That guy at work that's a little depressed?  He's feeling the effects of MORE as well.  

These days there are more people afflicted with allergies, more people afflicted with soul sucking, crippling diseases and of course more people afflicted with some serious mental issues.  So it only stands to reason that there be more and more reasons to be pissed off and full of hate.  And not just in quantities of these people, but more and more of this growing population is taking their hate further and further.  Just like your friend the ******* being even more so, seriously ****ed up people are growing even more ****ed up by the minute.  Everything and everyone seems to be taking it all up a notch.  Cars keep getting faster while our ability to control them hasn't.  Drugs keep getting more potent while our ability to handle them hasn't.  Diseases keep getting more aggressive while our medical procedures drag and crawl themselves to keep up.  The internet has made communications so fast and immediate that our brains can't even keep up with ourselves anymore.  

And yes, guns certainly have had their share of MORE.  More available, more options, more accurate and more rapid firing.  But it isn't just guns.  More knives, more bats, more ways to build explosives are available at the click of your mouse than you can shake a stick at.  More and more ways to harm, maim and kill.  Basically, within the last 150 years the whole world has been in hyper drive and the human race has been hanging on for the ride.  How much more can we take as a society take?  How much more can we as individuals take?  Probably until we are no more.

OK, well, in black and white is does seem silly, but I'm gonna post it anyway.  It's semi interesting and if nothing else you get to see a bit of what my free form writing looks like.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 17, 2012)

Thank you for posting that.  I don't see anything silly about the writing.  I've been trying to explain that same thing to a few friends.  We need to step back as a society and re-assess this world.  The internet is either going to spread rumors and false information faster than any other age since there were only a few people in it (which apparently was quite awhile ago) or the internet is going to let the whole world bond and grow together.  If we use it to ignore each other and ourselves, spread hate and fear on it and want more than we need, then I don't think we'll be in much of a position to change soon.  I deeply believe the internet will bring all of us together and we can work on a new paradigm.  A new age and a one world government run by the people not by the rich.  An open-source governance where everyone has the chance to have their say and those that do not have the means will be lovingly given the means by those who have more than they need.  Pipe-dream? Perhaps.  Or perhaps its because of this pipe that I dream the dreams I do.  Dreams of a world with logic and understanding.  One where our hearts and minds work as one engine instead of one or the other being the only way forward.


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## KmH (Dec 17, 2012)

.


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## AgentDrex (Dec 18, 2012)

Is KmH having a period?  I clearly see a period in the previous poster's post.  :raisedbrow:


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