# Trying to turn my "hobby" into more of a business



## CMTphoto (Apr 25, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I have been into photography for a while and have recently been trying to turn it into more of a business. I have people asking me to take their photos and have even been asked to do a couple of weddings this year. I am excited because I love doing it, but at the same time, I am nervous. I guess I don't really have enough confidence in myself. I spend alot of time learning and growing as a photographer and I was just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to take things to the next level. I am definately starting to get attention from alot of people and have people contacting me quite a bit. Any tips on how to turn my hobby into more of a business? I am including some samples of my work for anyone to comment on. Feedback/critique is always welcome 
Crystal


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## Overread (Apr 25, 2012)

Your post got auto stopped by our spam filter (nothing wrong on your part, sometimes it catches the wrong person) but I've approved your post. Also note that you only need to use the IMG tag version for this site (I changed the tags for you).


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## CCericola (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi CMT,

You have a lot of lighting and post processing issues that need to be corrected before starting a business. Once you have mastered you equipment and can produce stellar results consistently, you are ready to start a business. In my opinion, you are not there yet. I suggest joining your local PPA and start getting some one on one help from fellow PPA members. 

Once you are ready to start a business it is like starting any other business. You have legal and tax issues to deal with. You will also need business and liability insurance. You will need to get the services of a lawyer and an accountant. And just like any business you will need capital. From your savings, investors or loans. It is not a cheap business to start. 

For weddings in particular: You will need to start as an assistant, then move ahead as a second shooter for a few years before going out on your own. After those few years you will know exactly what you need to charge, what equipment you need etc... because you have seen it done over and over by a professional. 

It is VERY important with weddings to have good liability insurance. Some wedding venues won't even let you shoot a single picture if you cannot provide proof of insurance. How terrible would it be to book a wedding and when you get there you have to tell the bride you can't take any pictures because you didn't have insurance. And no, riders on your home owners insurance do not count. 

It will be a long and stressful journey that goes with being a business owner in general. Good luck!


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## cgipson1 (Apr 25, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> "Trying to turn my "hobby" into more of a business"



You and a million others... most of whom seem to think the "P" on their camera means "Professional", and are PROs that mostly post in the Beginner Section! (something wrong with that concept, don't you agree?)

#1.. a bit soft in some areas of her face.. and the lighting is terribly harsh. Fill flash, or at least a reflector was needed here..... eyes appear badly oversharpened also
#2 Looks like you put saturation into OVERDRIVE on this one... and there are bad blown out highlights!
#3 Mostly out of focus.. the only areas in focus are the petals on the right... the stamen and pistils are OOF, as are most of the petals. 

Do you know how to use a flash? Or are you a Natural Light Photographer?


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 25, 2012)

Not another professional amateur.  The first image is out of focus, if this is an example of the best, then enjoy what you have as a hobby.

Kids and couples and flowers, oh my.  Next step, "I'm thinking of shooting stock, anyone have any suggestions"


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## cgipson1 (Apr 25, 2012)

This might interest you.....

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-you-decide-shoot-wedding-2.html#post2572786


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 25, 2012)

B =  BestBuy, not sure why the manuals say "Bulb"


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## SCraig (Apr 25, 2012)

I won't try to dissuade you from your dream, but I would strongly, strongly recommend some further experience prior to making photography a full-time profession.

First photo - Very soft (out of focus), cut the top of her head off, and shot a portrait in landscape mode (nothing wrong with that except that the aspect ratio of most portraits better fits portrait orientation).

Second shot - Runs the gamut from blocked shadows to blown highlights.  Something to diffuse the light would have helped enormously.  The saturation, as has been mentioned, appears to be off the scale.

Third shot - Focus is on the petals to the right and not the stamen.  You had plenty of ISO and shutter speed to increase the aperture 3 stops at least and give yourself some more depth of field but didn't.

We aren't your family and friends.  We won't tell you everything is peachy when it isn't.  If a shot isn't good we say so.  If you decide to stick around, listen to what people advise you to do, and then try it you will get better.  Right now I'm seeing the results of a 6 month to a year experience.  How far off am I?

Oh, and one more thing: Before you get serious about shooting weddings plan to replace the D3000 and 18-55 kit lens.


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## cgipson1 (Apr 25, 2012)

SCraig said:


> *Oh, and one more thing: Before you get serious about shooting weddings plan to replace the D3000 and 18-55 kit lens.*[/SIZE]



*SERIOUSLY!!*!! and you might need to learn to use Flash!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 25, 2012)




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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 25, 2012)

and OCF flavor flash


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## cgipson1 (Apr 25, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


>



Cute Kitty! Would have been better shot in portrait mode, though!


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## Josh66 (Apr 25, 2012)

A fun hobby isn't good enough?


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## SCraig (Apr 25, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> A fun hobby isn't good enough?


That's the part I have never understood.  There's nothing wrong with enjoying your chosen profession nor is there anything wrong with turning something you enjoy into a profession, but there are so many that feel they have to do so RIGHT NOW!  Enjoy your first years with a camera, they are when you learn 90% of everything you'll ever know about exposure, 50% about composition, and maybe 25% about lighting because it's all new and exciting and the urge to learn is there.  After a while exposure and composition become second nature.  You don't have to look for the composition, you automatically see it.  You don't have to guess about the exposure, you know what to do to get the shot.  That's when it's time to start (notice that I said START) to think about making a career out of it.


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## Josh66 (Apr 25, 2012)

That's what I wanted to say, but you put it into words much better than I was going to.

There's no need to jump into it.  Learn the craft, hone your skills - then start thinking about it.  By then, you will have a much better idea of what is required, and where you stand.  If you do 'go pro' later, you'll be better because you waited.


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## Overread (Apr 25, 2012)

Just a point to add - nothing says that you must be your own boss whilst working in the photography industry. In fact the boss of a photography company might end up with less camera time and far more marketing, selling, pitching, tax form filling etc.... You could always apply at the intern/assistant level and still draw a decent paycheck whilst also not being the sole one in charge (and if you wanted to cut yourself out and go it alone you'll have already gained years of paid experience working in the professional world).


A great many people start with the dream, however jumping in the deep-end is a very poor way to start. A lot (in fact the overwhelming majority) who do that simply end up with their business floundering and falling apart. Normally it serves little but to do a few cheap sessions for a couple of friends and earn a tiny bit of pocket money before it all closes down (or limps on and ends up a money drain). 

Good planning is important as is gaining the experience, confidence and understanding of the tools you are using as well as the business market. 




ps - Bitter why no new cat pics!?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 25, 2012)

Overread said:


> ps - Bitter why no new cat pics!?



Because they are uncontrollable bastages!


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## Overread (Apr 25, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > ps - Bitter why no new cat pics!?
> ...



That's no good excuse - you go back in there and ramp your shutter speed and ISO up!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 25, 2012)

What about the crappy distracting backgrounds?


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## Trever1t (Apr 25, 2012)

Me thinks the commonality of these threads indicate nepharious behavior by a member with a wickedly funny sense of humor.


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## SCraig (Apr 25, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Because they are uncontrollable bastages!


Flash!  And if they are still moving MORE FLASH!  Sooner or later they go comatose and you can get good shots of them.

(just kidding, of course.  I love my two cats more than anything else and wouldn't do anything to hurt the little rats.)


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## CMTphoto (Apr 26, 2012)

LOL, thanks for all of the feedback. First off, I never said I was a professional. I said that I wanted to turn it into more of a "business". The only reason for this is that I have people asking me to do their photos all of the time and I can't spend my time doing this if I am not being compensated in some way (something about having a family to support). I was just saying that at this point it is a thought. As far as replacing the equipment, I have already purchased 2 new lenses and am looking into a full frame. I'm not an idiot. I haven't gone out advertising that I'm some sort of Pro who shoots weddings for a living. Photography is a love of mine as is many other forms of art. I am not saying that I am trying to get rich quick off of my hobby. If the good old state of NY would allow me to do this as a hobby and be compensated for my time, I sure would do that as oppossed to trying to open a small business here. Thank you all for your thoughts on the photos. I know that I have much to learn and spend everyday doing just that. Oh, and being harsh will not scare me away. I may be a tiny little lady, but I do not get scared off easily. Just a little reminder by the way: You pros weren't all BORN pros. You had to start somewhere and bashing people who are trying to do the same says little of your character


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 26, 2012)

Here's the deal. Most peole consider pro being when your to the point of accepting money. that's pretty much when you crossed the line. so when you say I want to turn this into the business it's the same as saying your ready to go pro. another issue is you stated you have been asked to do two wedding and then go on to say your not confident in your skills. Most people will say if your not confident in your skills then your not ready to make a go as a business. Ecspecially weddings where someone may be nice and happy to you at first, but if they arn't happy with there wedding photos you can find yourself in court really fast, that is not an area where you start. Just because someone asks you to do a job doesnt mean you have to accept that job. 

These guys will be harsh as hell and you have to be able to learn to handle it. When I want real critique on my photos I bring them here, all my friends will just say wow thats great. because they don't know what they are looking at and are just comparing it to there pictures of there $100 point and shoot. so not being scared off is a big thing. If you want to improve post up pictures and take in what the member have to say. It helps allot. And just use it as a learning tool. Even memebers on here who post snide remarks there is still usually truth into things they point out, even if its delivered in a poor way.

And this isn't coming from a pro, this is coming from someone just like you. someone who loves photography and wants to make it into a business. I was laid off the last 5 months so I started working towards the slow process of going into business and there is allot of work involved if you want to do it right. Just read thru the forums. Don't expect anyone to just tell you step by step how to do it. Read, research. Head to your local library and start reading books. Books on photography, books on business, books on marketing, all things that are just as important if not more so then the actual photography. When I got laid off I figured i'd be out taking photos all the time, what I really found out was that to start a business the right way you have to really sit down, do your research and learn allot of stuff that has nothing to do with snapping a photo. Look into insurance, taxes, state, federal and local. what does your city require to open a business? is there rules and regulations about running a business out of your home in your town? these are all things you really have to look into yourself. I'm now back to work 5 months later. and in that time monday thru friday I usually spent around 4 hours a day on photography\business and i'm still not really finished getting everything setup and where I need to be. And my doors ar not yet open. Your going to likely spend some money now as well to get started up. your business liscence, website, domain names, insurance in case little elisabeth falls and breaks her arm doing a photo shoot and elisabeth's mom decides to take youto court over it. contracts, a layer to check over the contracts to make sure there legal in your state. i could go on. There is a ton of work involved with doing it properly and it's not something that can be learned in one post on a photography forum. Your best bet is to do searches on questions you have because likely it has been answered several times in the past allready.


Sorry for the long winded responce. And this wasnt meant as an attack on you, or assuming you know nothing. It's the internet, all we know about you is your screen name and how many posts you have.


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## cgipson1 (Apr 26, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> LOL, thanks for all of the feedback. First off, I never said I was a professional. I said that I wanted to turn it into more of a "business". The only reason for this is that I have people asking me to do their photos all of the time and I can't spend my time doing this if I am not being compensated in some way (something about having a family to support). I was just saying that at this point it is a thought. As far as replacing the equipment, I have already purchased 2 new lenses and am looking into a full frame. I'm not an idiot. I haven't gone out advertising that I'm some sort of Pro who shoots weddings for a living. Photography is a love of mine as is many other forms of art. I am not saying that I am trying to get rich quick off of my hobby. If the good old state of NY would allow me to do this as a hobby and be compensated for my time, I sure would do that as oppossed to trying to open a small business here. Thank you all for your thoughts on the photos. I know that I have much to learn and spend everyday doing just that. Oh, and being harsh will not scare me away. I may be a tiny little lady, but I do not get scared off easily. Just a little reminder by the way: You pros weren't all BORN pros. You had to start somewhere and bashing people who are trying to do the same says little of your character



We average three or four posts like this per day.. and most of those people have had their camera's less than a year. Their family and friends tell them how great they are.. and so they want to "start" a business. Most of them can't get a decent exposure, know nothing about lighting (they call themselves "Natural Light Photographers".. which is silly.. they just don't know how to use flash, and are usually intimidated by it).

A lot of us have been "pro's" longer than most of those people have been alive! Most of us shot 10 or 15 years before we ever went "PRO"... and usually back in the film days (when you really had to get it right the first time!) 

We see so many of these new "PRO's" asking really simple beginner type questions.. in the beginner section. (How PROFESSIONAL is that?) Most of them come here at the last minute because they accepted a "gig" that they have no clue how to shoot... and want us to help them! We have no obligation to do so.. but some usually try anyway. Most of the new "PROS" seem to think it is ok to charge clients for crappy work.. while learning on the job! Most of us here disagree with that..... you should already know how to deliver a professional image, before you ever accept a "gig"... NOT let the client pay for your mistakes! They charge really low prices.. but they aren't even worth that!

Can you see why we might be a little bit skeptical when you start a thread like this? Maybe you should post more of your work... critique is the best way to learn what you are doing wrong... and what you are doing right. Just don't expect us to sugar coat it... we aren't your family and friends, and some of us actually know what good photography is.


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 26, 2012)

Learning how to use a flash is far less important than learning how to use avaliable light...problem is that most camera owners don't take the time or can't figure out how to use the light that is there.  If more people just enjoyed the hobby and worked towards getting better at it they would be far happier. Once the line is crossed and it becomes a job, then all the stress that come with "having" to really work at it, well it's not always fun anymore.


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## orljustin (Apr 27, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> LOL, thanks for all of the feedback. First off, I never said I was a professional. I said that I wanted to turn it into more of a "business". The only reason for this is that I have people asking me to do their photos all of the time and I can't spend my time doing this if I am not being compensated in some way (something about having a family to support).



Do what I do.  Say no thanks, I'm not looking for paid work right now (actually the word "paid" might turn them away).


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 27, 2012)

Bestbuy and Amazon.com should be indicted for such blatant exploitation of Canon and Nikon inc.


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## SCraig (Apr 27, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> LOL, thanks for all of the feedback. First off, I never said I was a professional. I said that I wanted to turn it into more of a "business"....


They ARE one and the same.  If you are in the business of shooting photographs for profit that makes you a professional.  You cannot have one without the other.


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## KmH (Apr 27, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> LOL, thanks for all of the feedback. First off, I never said I was a professional. I said that I wanted to turn it into more of a "business".


Fair enough.

The first step is to write a business and marketing plan. Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov

Step 2 is to learn how to do accounting, marketing, promotion, and sales.
Step 3 is to determine what business licensing/registration requirements are in your community. (In the town where I live, a business cannot be run out of your home.)
Step 4 is to find out what state requirements are for collecting/forwarding sales taxes, and for paying use and unemployment insurance taxes.
Step 5 is to contact your insurance agent about business liability, and camera gear insurance.
Step 6 is to consult with an attorney about which business type would be right for you, and what legal documents your business will need (contract, model release, etc.) so they are valid and actionable in New York. 

You can also get free business mentoring services from www.score.org


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## CMfromIL (Apr 27, 2012)

I guess I'm a bit confused about the whole 'wanting to turn it into a business' thing.  Do you want to run a business, or simply because you feel compelled by the demands placed on you (or expectations) by others?

If you are doing it because people are asking you, but your heart isn't really into it...I'd avoid it.

There are so many things to consider.

I've been asked by others if I sell my images.  It's flattering, but I don't.  I do it for personal pleasure and enjoyment.  A side benefit is that parents can have them (I shoot jr high sports with my kids that are involved), and I get 'better' all around.

If I began taking payments, beyond the obvious step of needing to begin collecting taxes etc is that it's no longer 'fun'.  If I don't want to take a camera to a game, parents may ask me about it, but I don't feel guilty about it.

I don't feel bad if I only get 1 'keeper', I don't feel bad if I don't take a picture of Mrs Jones' kid 3 times in a match.

If I was taking money, those expectations change.

Shoot for fun.  If you are serious about starting a business, then get serious.  Follow the steps outlined by KMH and others.  Good luck.


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't believe that the Op has the skills or experience to become a professional at this point...but these days people don't value the importance of skill and experience, they would rather have to pay as little as possible for as much in return.


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## bunny99123 (Apr 27, 2012)

I am new on this forum, but not to life. I have been on other forums and have read this argument so many times! I could never get a straight answer on what makes a photographer a Pro. Some say "when you get paid" others "So many years", etc. I have a Degree in Secondary Education in Science, and I had to take 4 test that is nationalized to get my teaching certificate. I student taught for 1 semester. After that I was a teacher and hired. Was I a Pro-teacher? No, and I got paid. Yes, I did become a very good teacher. I witnessed bad teaching from teachers who had taught for years. I loved teaching, but at times it was stressful. What I am trying to say is Photography has no criteria to set place a label. If you want to call yourself a Pro, you can call yourself a Pro or you can just l a Photographer. I love art, and I have seen paintings and photographs I would put in the trash from Pros. I have seen beautiful work from Pro's. That is life. I accept money for photos, because it is my time. When they want special effects which is popular now. That takes time. I have my DSLR for less than a year, but have taken photos for years. If she wants to accept money, yeah to her. Just tell your customer that you are a beginner, and take a laptop to show your shoot and take more photos if they don't like them. I do agree to make a contract when doing a wedding, because that is not something you can redo. Good luck to you! We all have to start somewhere and any employment requires continue learning.


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## CMfromIL (Apr 27, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I don't believe that the Op has the skills or experience to become a professional at this point...but these days people don't value the importance of skill and experience, *they would rather have to pay as little as possible for as much in return*.



I'm not quite sure that's all of it.

I personally think it has much more to do with putting too much 'stock' in what friends and relatives have to say about one's ability to take pictures.  You need not look far, the inability to get honest feedback is everywhere.  Ever watch American Idol or similar programs?  The WORST singers all protest with a very similar line "But my (insert friends, relatives, neighbors) all say I'm GREAT!!!!"

No one is that good (well almost no one) that they get 100% positive feedback all the time.  And yet we ignore the very real possibility that rather than give either honest feedback they are simply pacifying our ego's OR they don't _really_ understand what makes a great singer, photographer, basketball player etc.

As for the bolded....don't we all wish for that?  I've yet to say "Boy I'm going to invest EVERYTHING I have into this project, and by golly I hope I either get a negative or as close to minimum payoff as possible.":lmao:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 27, 2012)

It can have something to do with this....
"The Dunning&#8211;Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."

From: Dunning


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## JSER (Apr 27, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> Hello everyone,
> I have been into photography for a while and have recently been trying to turn it into more of a business. I have people asking me to take their photos and have even been asked to do a couple of weddings this year. I am excited because I love doing it, but at the same time, I am nervous. I guess I don't really have enough confidence in myself. I spend alot of time learning and growing as a photographer and I was just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to take things to the next level. I am definately starting to get attention from alot of people and have people contacting me quite a bit. Any tips on how to turn my hobby into more of a business? I am including some samples of my work for anyone to comment on. Feedback/critique is always welcome
> Crystal





I think you are trying to run before you can even crawl, sorry, but if you have posted the "best" you have then please go back and keep at it


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## JSER (Apr 27, 2012)

bunny99123 said:


> I am new on this forum, but not to life. I have been on other forums and have read this argument so many times! I could never get a straight answer on what makes a photographer a Pro. Some say "when you get paid" others "So many years", etc. I have a Degree in Secondary Education in Science, and I had to take 4 test that is nationalized to get my teaching certificate. I student taught for 1 semester. After that I was a teacher and hired. Was I a Pro-teacher? No, and I got paid. Yes, I did become a very good teacher. I witnessed bad teaching from teachers who had taught for years. I loved teaching, but at times it was stressful. What I am trying to say is Photography has no criteria to set place a label. If you want to call yourself a Pro, you can call yourself a Pro or you can just l a Photographer. I love art, and I have seen paintings and photographs I would put in the trash from Pros. I have seen beautiful work from Pro's. That is life. I accept money for photos, because it is my time. When they want special effects which is popular now. That takes time. I have my DSLR for less than a year, but have taken photos for years. If she wants to accept money, yeah to her. Just tell your customer that you are a beginner, and take a laptop to show your shoot and take more photos if they don't like them. I do agree to make a contract when doing a wedding, because that is not something you can redo. Good luck to you! We all have to start somewhere and any employment requires continue learning.



Come on  "A professional is a person who makes a living at what they do"   how simple is that for an explanation.

An amateur is someone who has a hobby, you don't have professional doctors, teachers, bus drivers they are "paid to jo a job of work" and are waged.

Most pros such as athletes, photographers,  etc are self employed or have to find sponsors, not all but most.  As for teachers remember the old sayings 1. Those who can, do, those who can not, teach, and 2. Men/Women amongst children and children amongst Men/Women.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Apr 27, 2012)

JSER, thats not what the sales clerks at bestbuy are trained to explain =)


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 27, 2012)

I taught darkroom to 3rd year photojournalism students at a University years ago, I don't have a degree as a teacher, but I knew what I was doing, I wasn't getting paid for it as I was assisting the paid professor, and knew more about darkroom and photography than he did. I work full time as a professional photographer.  As i have said many times, there are great amateurs that shoot because they love it, there are amateurs that think they can shoot and charge for it.  I know just as many professional photographers that think they can shoot but turn out crap, but are still working because the people they are selling to don't know the difference and they are low balling the better photographers. I know one amateur that does have a full time job outside of photography and he is working as a photographer on weekends and evenings, and doing very well, he is very skilled, but he wouldn't make the jump to do it full time, he's not that stupid, giving up a steady pay cheque to go into a freelance world, inspite of his great skills.

It's the  unskilled amateurs and part time professionals that create alot of the problems for the 24/7 photographers. The line that seems to piss everyone off is, "unless you are working as a professional, you don't really understand the impact that these types have on the over-all market".


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## cgipson1 (Apr 27, 2012)

bunny99123 said:


> I am new on this forum, but not to life. I have been on other forums and have read this argument so many times! I could never get a straight answer on what makes a photographer a Pro. Some say "when you get paid" others "So many years", etc. I have a Degree in Secondary Education in Science, and I had to take 4 test that is nationalized to get my teaching certificate. I student taught for 1 semester. After that I was a teacher and hired. Was I a Pro-teacher? No, and I got paid. Yes, I did become a very good teacher. I witnessed bad teaching from teachers who had taught for years. I loved teaching, but at times it was stressful. What I am trying to say is Photography has no criteria to set place a label. If you want to call yourself a Pro, you can call yourself a Pro or you can just l a Photographer. I love art, and I have seen paintings and photographs I would put in the trash from Pros. I have seen beautiful work from Pro's. That is life. I accept money for photos, because it is my time. When they want special effects which is popular now. That takes time. I have my DSLR for less than a year, but have taken photos for years. If she wants to accept money, yeah to her. Just tell your customer that you are a beginner, and take a laptop to show your shoot and take more photos if they don't like them. I do agree to make a contract when doing a wedding, because that is not something you can redo. Good luck to you! We all have to start somewhere and any employment requires continue learning.



My definition of a PRO.. is being able to turn out excellent images, no matter what the conditions, lighting, subject, etc.. and do it consistently shot after shot... knowing what the shots are going to look like before you even take them! I have yet to see a single WANNA BE PRO that can do that! And I have seen the shots you posted also, exactly what I would expect from someone with only a year of DSLR experience.... 

Most of these so-called "PRO's" do NOT tell the clients they are beginners.. as the PRO term is part of their EGO trip. They are even convinced they turn out decent work... but they don't! Clients should not have to pay for crap, so someone can learn to shoot! 

If there was testing before you could get a license for a Photography business, say based on a written exam and a lab.... most of the new "PRO"s would never be able to pass! (AUTO would not be allowed!)


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## cgipson1 (Apr 27, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> It can have something to do with this....
> "The Dunning&#8211;Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."
> 
> From: Dunning



Yes... the Dunning-Kruger effect seems rather prevalent where the new "PRO's are concerned! Definitely delusional about their skills and abilities!


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## LuckySe7en (Apr 27, 2012)

CMTphoto said:


> I guess I don't really have enough confidence in myself.



No offense, but this statement is clearly evident in your work.  Learn your craft until you're confident.  Then think about making moves.


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## elizabethysmom (Apr 30, 2012)

This is a sticky subject. If you have doubts then go with that gut feeling. I'm new to
Photography (less than a year) and I'm learning more every day. I feel the pressure from family to collect money and it's frustrating.  I've also been asked to shoot a wedding, and there's a family wedding coming up that I'm praying I won't be asked to shoot. It's not that I wouldnt love these opportunities....in about 5 years. Think of the  liability involved. How discouraged will you be if something goes wrong?  If this is your passion get to a point where you are so confident that nothing can stop you. Take classes, find a mentor, join a photography club. I took a class taught by a local photog who has been in the business for 30 + years I could see his anger when he talked about how hard he has worked and now every momographer out there was ready to take his clients charging half of his price.  I don't want to be that, if this is a true calling or whatever you want to call it gain some 'street cred' and dive into getting educated. You won't regret it!!!


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

elizabethysmom said:


> I feel the pressure from family to collect money and it's frustrating.


I don't understand this...  It isn't just you - this is a very common thing.  Why do cameras carry an obligation to pay for themselves?

If you took up knitting, would your family expect you to 'go pro' and fund your hobby by selling needlepoint portraits?


I have too many hobbies...  So far, none of them have made me a dime.  You know what - that's perfectly fine with me.  I don't do it for money, I do it for fun.  I have a job, I don't need (or want) another one.

Photography seems to occupy some special place in the land of hobbies, lol.  Everyone thinks they can turn it into a business and let it pay for itself.

Any hobby could be made into a business if you had the skill and desire, but with photography - it's expected.


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## Overread (Apr 30, 2012)

O|||||||O said:


> elizabethysmom said:
> 
> 
> > I feel the pressure from family to collect money and it's frustrating.
> ...



I suspect its for a few reasons:
1) Photography as a job is pretty high profile; people see and hear about it (and heck even hire photographers) all the time. Thus its something that, as a skill, people also see as a working, earning skill. You see the same thing if you're a techy/geeky person with computers and people will say "Oh you know a lot you could do this for a living". If you did amateur plumbing people would say the same thing again. 

2) Society is currently in a recession in many nations, thus anyone without a job or without a highpaying job (to the average person photography is either viewed as a deadend job or a highflying rich one) is going to be pushed by those close to them into other jobs - eg ooh you're good with a camera become a photographer. 

3) Society places a high value upon paid goods. Someone saying "Oh you're good enough to be a pro and get paid" is paying a compliment; not every comment said like this means that they insist upon you becoming professional; but it means that you are producing a product to a quality that that persons considers trade able (trade today being mostly money rather than barter for goods). 


I don't think its something specific to photography, save that photography is one hobby that is also a working skill - many others are not seen as paid skills and thus don't get the same comments


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## elizabethysmom (Apr 30, 2012)

O|||||||O said:
			
		

> I don't understand this...  It isn't just you - this is a very common thing.  Why do cameras carry an obligation to pay for themselves?
> 
> If you took up knitting, would your family expect you to 'go pro' and fund your hobby by selling needlepoint portraits?
> 
> ...



I agree completely - I think part of it is family or friends see you purchase $1000 worth of equipment (not a lot in the photog world) and think you're a dummy for not recouping what you spent. Knitting needles are cheap. Now I'm coveting lenses and I hear 'you better start making some money with that hobby to pay for another lens' oye!


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

Yeah, I see what you're saying.  It's just that with photography, it's like "oh, you got a 'good' camera - you need to start up a photography business now".  I mean, it's practically a given that new DSLR = new "pro" photogrpaher.  Too many of my "friends" (really, they were good friends long ago, but I barely know them now...), or cousins, or in-laws - they all buy a camera, and then open a photograhy "business" (aka - Facebook page) the next day.  It blows me away.  Then they post these crappy pictures (that some sucker is paying for), and I just roll my eyes.

What is wrong with being good at a hobby?  I don't get why as soon as most people buy a camera, they want to sell their crap work.  And, FYI, with few exceptions, everything for the first couple years is crap.

edit
this post is in reply to Overread - I type slow, lol.


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

elizabethysmom said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Surely your husband has a hobby...  (...Assuming that you're a woman, and that you're married...  Sorry if I'm wrong on either count.)  How much extra money does that hobby bring to the family.    Probably less than he spends on it...

If I did make any money from a hobby, it would go right back into that hobby.  It would not be 'extra' money - it would be more toys.  I'm sure it's the same for most people.  Hell, if that isn't the case, it's a job - not a hobby.  Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not work.


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## elizabethysmom (Apr 30, 2012)

O|||||||O said:
			
		

> Surely your husband has a hobby...  (...Assuming that you're a woman, and that you're married...  Sorry if I'm wrong on either count.)  How much extra money does that hobby bring to the family.    Probably less than he spends on it...
> 
> If I did make any money from a hobby, it would go right back into that hobby.  It would not be 'extra' money - it would be more toys.  I'm sure it's the same for most people.  Hell, if that isn't the case, it's a job - not a hobby.  Hobbies are supposed to be fun, not work.



Come to think of it he has several guns and they bring in NO freaking money what so ever! The ammo is expensive, the safe was expensive, the gun range is expensive clay shooting....EXPENSIVE! Oh boy you shouldn't have opened that can of worms lol!


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## Josh66 (Apr 30, 2012)

"Guns" was exactly what I was thinking of, lol.  Expensive hobby - but you _can_ make money, if you want to...  Practice a lot, start winning competitions, get paid.  Same as cameras - practice a lot, build a portfolio, get clients.


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## Balmiesgirl (Apr 30, 2012)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> My definition of a PRO.. is being able to turn out excellent images, no matter what the conditions, lighting, subject, etc.. and do it consistently shot after shot... knowing what the shots are going to look like before you even take them! I have yet to see a single WANNA BE PRO that can do that! And I have seen the shots you posted also, exactly what I would expect from someone with only a year of DSLR experience....
> 
> Most of these so-called "PRO's" do NOT tell the clients they are beginners.. as the PRO term is part of their EGO trip. They are even convinced they turn out decent work... but they don't! Clients should not have to pay for crap, so someone can learn to shoot!
> 
> If there was testing before you could get a license for a Photography business, say based on a written exam and a lab.... most of the new "PRO"s would never be able to pass! (AUTO would not be allowed!)



I agree!!!!!!


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## Balmiesgirl (Apr 30, 2012)

If you are trying to decide if you are up to pro standards u can take the Certified Professional Photographer exam. You can get info from PPA. If you can pass the written test and then the panel that judges 20 of your shots that represent your work  then your skills are fairly decent.

 It doesn't say anything about your business or marketing skills which is a whole different issue.


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 30, 2012)

Overread said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > elizabethysmom said:
> ...





I agree with allot of this statement. I also think people see it as a very cheap way to make money.  Oh you have the camera allready all you need to do is start a facebook page and shovel in the cash. they dont really think about all the true cost associated with things, don't account for editing, advertising, marketing, all that stuff that takes up a good portion of yoru time. they just think you run out, shoot photos for an hour and recieve a large check. it makes it very appealing.


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## bunny99123 (May 4, 2012)

Most people I know rotate hobbies like socks, so if a person is deciding to start a business, and when they find out how physically hard it is, the cost never ends, education continues, etc. A hobbiest will hit burn out quickly and stop advertising.  It is not fun anymore. A person that has a strong desire to be a photographer, and it is part of their life and enjoy it majority of the time...then that person will thrive and be successful.  It also, takes a business mind to succeed, because it is a business.  So, support the new people, because you never know if they will be a someone that succeeds or drops it in a year or two.  To me: Honesty, respect to the customer and a good business plan is the sucess to any business.


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## KmH (May 4, 2012)

For as long as I can remember, the rate small business start-ups, of all kinds, fail in reaching their 5th year has been pretty constant at about a 75% failure rate.

The #1 reason those small businesses fail is because they don't make sufficient money to sustain the business.



> If you fail to plan, plan to fail.


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## BlueMeanieTSi (May 4, 2012)

The best way to make "money" off of your hobby when starting out is to just produce images and offer them for sale as prints or put them in a gallery.  I'm in no way a "pro" at photography and all I do is compare my stuff to others and it's never good enough.  I get yelled at when "friends and family" tell me something is great and I say "no it isn't here's why".  However I have sold a lot of photos of Pittsburgh and other objects on canvas for people.

I would never want to do it as a business as I would hate to ruin someones wedding, but I dont' mind making money from my hobby on the side.


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## KmH (May 4, 2012)

Many that think they are making money, aren't, because they don't understand they have non-reimbursed expenses that have to be accounted for.


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## hopdaddy (May 4, 2012)

Balmiesgirl said:


> If you are trying to decide if you are up to pro standards u can take the Certified Professional Photographer exam. You can get info from PPA. If you can pass the written test and then the panel that judges 20 of your shots that represent your work  then your skills are fairly decent.
> 
> It doesn't say anything about your business or marketing skills which is a whole different issue.



I wish Photography forums would do something of this same nature.......It would be funny to see just where everyone placed ,on a noob to advanced "Pro" scale . I would respect something like that far more than how many "Likes " a person  acquired .......


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## BlueMeanieTSi (May 4, 2012)

KmH said:


> Many that think they are making money, aren't, because they don't understand they have non-reimbursed expenses that have to be accounted for.



This is true however my "expenses" are along the lines of purchasing thousands of dollars in camera equipment to further my hobby.


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## camerahappyme (May 4, 2012)

I jumped into a photography "business" a few months after buying my Canon Rebel xt and having a kit lens!!!:er: After a few months I realized I was being an idiot and jumped right back out!!!! Don't rush yourself, learn the trade! This was 5 years ago for me and I have progressed by leaps and bounds in those years! I think as a photographer and in an art industry there will always be new techniques to learns and styles to try but you have to understand the basics first. I made the mistake of being a Momographer lol don't do the same until you can stand behind your work and be proud of it WHILE STANDING NEXT TO SOME OF THE BEST PHOTOGRAPHERS YOU KNOW.


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## bratkinson (May 5, 2012)

About 30 years ago, a fellow model railroader acquaintance of mine decided to quit his job as a dental model-maker/casting technician and go into business doing what he could do best (make models) in the area of his hobby (model railroading). He started a business of making by far, the best high-end model railroad equipment (HO brass models, to be exact), and has been doing so ever since. We lived about 800 miles apart at the time and our paths crossed every now and then. About 15 years ago, our paths crossed once again and he told me something that has stuck in my head ever since:

&#8220;When your hobby becomes your business, it&#8217;s no longer your hobby&#8221;.

That statement has been rattling around in my head for all these years. I finally did the same thing 4 years ago&#8230;I finally went into the &#8216;business&#8217; of my hobby&#8230;I now work for a railroad, in a clerical capacity. Call it an &#8216;un-retirement&#8217; job. I had long since sold off my model railroad equipment to pursue other interests, so becoming a railroad clerk is not so much pursuing my &#8216;main&#8217; hobby any more, but it&#8217;s still one of my interests. What I found out in the process was that Joel was absolutely right. Trains and model railroading are no longer my hobby. Maybe it&#8217;s all the heavy-duty safety-oriented aspects of working on a railroad that &#8220;made it different&#8221;. Or perhaps it&#8217;s that I *have* to come to work *every* day, versus watching/photographing/modeling trains when I have the time and motivation. But it *IS* different than it used to be. My perspective has changed dramatically.

So, before you decide to leave your regular job, consider all the aspects of becoming a professional photographer carefully. Among them is that you&#8217;ll be your own boss, for the most part. Business paperwork, local/state/federal taxes, forms, paperwork, etc, can be a real killer, too. I know&#8230;I used to have my own one man computer consulting business corporation! Marketing is a part of a business, as well.

Lastly, there&#8217;s unintended consequences&#8230;like photography no longer being a hobby to you. 

It&#8217;s up to you.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 5, 2012)

On the flip side...if you truly love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.
This is my experience. I don't dread the long hours. I don't dread working 7 days a week. At the end of every day, I am proud of what I have done, and love every minute doing it.


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## BlueMeanieTSi (May 5, 2012)

bratkinson said:


> About 30 years ago, a fellow model railroader acquaintance of mine decided to quit his job as a dental model-maker/casting technician and go into business doing what he could do best (make models) in the area of his hobby (model railroading). He started a business of making by far, the best high-end model railroad equipment (HO brass models, to be exact), and has been doing so ever since. We lived about 800 miles apart at the time and our paths crossed every now and then. About 15 years ago, our paths crossed once again and he told me something that has stuck in my head ever since:
> 
> When your hobby becomes your business, its no longer your hobby.
> 
> ...



When your hobby becomes your job it's no longer fun.


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## Balmiesgirl (May 5, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> On the flip side...if you truly love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.
> This is my experience. I don't dread the long hours. I don't dread working 7 days a week. At the end of every day, I am proud of what I have done, and love every minute doing it.



 I agree!!!! 
You just have to love it enough to overlook the work side of it.... Which for me is the business end of it.


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## bratkinson (May 5, 2012)

BlueMeanieTSi said:


> When your hobby becomes your job it's no longer fun.



VERY well said!


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## 12sndsgood (May 7, 2012)

Balmiesgirl said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you really just have to sit down and think everything thru and decide if its what you want and wether your truly willing to do what it takes to try and make it a sucess. years ago while working at a landscape company. I was given the option of taking over the company. The then owner was moving out of state and offered to help me get going. at the time being young I just didnt think i had the discipline to do what was nessicary and didn't want to deal with the behind the scenes stuff like money and taxes and that type of thing, so I passed. Now as I make the progression into a business with photography I find I have a desire to learn those things. I can go to a SCORE seminar on business basics and practices and find Im listening, taking notes and involved with learning the in's and out's of the business. is it as fun as going out to take photos? no, and it likely never will be. But I know the importance of it all and am willing to try and learn as much as I can to do things the right way. If you really love something youlle find youll do the steps nessicary  to get you to were you want to be. But you gotta love it or you will just wind up skipping the important stuff and wind up losing intrest.


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## Phil_G (May 7, 2012)

I say go for it! Here is a link to a good site. Tips for Photography Businesses | Photographers Pricing Guide | Small Business Marketing from there you can find some other good resources. Good luck though. It's a lot of hard work. Me and my wife will be doing photography full time in 2013.


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## Alan_Chapman (May 9, 2012)

Just wondered if CTM has had any formal photography training it might a good place to start. Any one can become a pro - but it is hard work! go for it!


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## CMTphoto (May 10, 2012)

Hey everyone, thanks for all of the advice! I whole heartedly agree with most of you. I know that I have much learning and growing to do, and I think I worded my post a little incorrectly, which made it come across the wrong way. I am not saying that I want to become and overnight professional. I want to learn and grow and one day be good enough to be a professional. Photography is what I love to do. I have not had any formal training other than working in a studio for the past year and a half. I want to show you all a couple of photos that I took over the weekend that I feel are a great improvement for me. Please tell me what you all think.


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## KmH (May 10, 2012)

I think it looks like you still have a bit yet to learn about white balance, exposure, lighting, composition, and how to finish a photo (color correction, sharpening, adjusting the light, etc.).

The little boy has a somewhat green cast to his skin, and some distractions in the background.

Notice the dark shadows under the eyes in both photos? Fill light would have helped.

A basic precept of visual image composition and lighting is that 'light advances, dark receeds'. That's because the human eye is attracted to the brighter parts of a scene.


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