# Western Digital Red NAS hard drives



## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

I bought a Drobo 5N NAS in January and since then I've experienced 2 drive failures with the WD RED drives. WD RMA policy is cool, they ship me out a new drive and allow me to return the dead one without charge (A reconditioned unit, shipping not included) but what a PITA. 2 out of 5 drives in 2 months? The RED drives have a 3 year replacement warranty and I have enabled dual disc redundancy on the NAS so short of losing 3 drives at the same time I'm ok but dayum!!!




Is there a better drive? Is this normal?


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## cheshirecat79 (Apr 2, 2014)

This is definitely not normal. The WD Red's are specifically built for RAID applications (like what you're doing). I've used several and they've performed as expected. There is an issue with some of the drives where the idle timer is set super-low, meaning that it'll sort of go into "standby" after only 10 seconds of inactivity rather than a matter of minutes or even hours. This may cause premature wear and tear. 

Regardless, keep an eye on the RAID and you should be ok. Also remember that RAID isn't backup- always have a separate backup of your data.


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## lambertpix (Apr 2, 2014)

Very odd.  The most recent drives I added to my Drobo 5N were a pair of Seagate NAS HDD ST4000VN000 4TB drives, which should be pretty much equivalent to WD Reds as far as construction & intended usage.  They've been running without incident, but that was only December of last year, so I don't know if you can draw too many conclusions about reliability.

FWIW, over the years, I've experienced bouts where I've sworn to never buy WD or Seagate again because I've experienced multiple failures from both brands.  I have a feeling that both brands have had "lemon" drives that were just less reliable than normal, but of course, all HDD's fail eventually, and over the long run, I'm convinced that quality is probably about the same between these vendors.  

Anecdotally, I've owned drives from Hitachi / IBM and Toshiba, as well, and I've yet to experience failures from either of them, but again, I can't consider that conclusive because I just haven't waited long enough.  The Toshibas, for instance, are a set of three 3GB drives -- also in the Drobo -- installed last April.  No failures in a year is good, IMO, but they'll die at some point, I know.


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## Derrel (Apr 2, 2014)

Wow...my Buffalo TeraStation NAS has been on-line almost continuously for about 7 years....not one, single drive failure in seven YEARS...

Sounds like some real garbage coming out of that factory...

I dunno...I had a run of bad,. bad luck with WD drive back in the early 2000's...I had one flame out after three days, back when drives were $399 a pop...damn, I was pissed...went back, got it replaced, and SOB...Western Digital replacement drive went down in about 30 days...I swore them off and have gone exclusively now to Maxtor, without a single flame-out since 2002...so...I dunno...


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## Scatterbrained (Apr 2, 2014)

That's not good to here, especially since I just bought a pair of Reds.


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

no.
I have a couple externals which ive been running for years.
I have a internal that has been coming up with warning drive failure for ten years. I run fixdisk on it occasionally, wipe it, use it anyway. You can also run for bad sectors and avoid them (least I could under xp never tried on windows 8 like this one).
I would never totally trust a drive though. my external Seagate has been making strange noises. im scared about that...
I think it has been dropped too many times.

shoot. I think I have another western digital kicking around somewhere I don't even think I ever used it. wonder where I put it...


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

cheshirecat79 said:


> This is definitely not normal. The WD Red's are specifically built for RAID applications (like what you're doing). I've used several and they've performed as expected. There is an issue with some of the drives where the idle timer is set super-low, meaning that it'll sort of go into "standby" after only 10 seconds of inactivity rather than a matter of minutes or even hours. This may cause premature wear and tear.
> 
> Regardless, keep an eye on the RAID and you should be ok. Also remember that RAID isn't backup- always have a separate backup of your data.



OK Humor me, how am I going to backup if my RAID device isn't? Online backup is out of reach for me at the moment.


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

The DROBO can repair the drive (?) after a restart it reads as functioning but "Healed" meaning that bad sectors are being skipped over (I guess?) Either way I'm having it replaced. These are built in Malaysia. Not sure if that's where thay all come from or not.


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## cheshirecat79 (Apr 2, 2014)

> OK Humor me, how am I going to backup if my RAID device isn't? Online backup is out of reach for me at the moment.



Just to be clear- your RAID's main function is redundancy- that meaning that if a disk fails, you'll still be able to work. The purpose of RAID isn't to simply keep a copy of the data, but to ensure that the system will continue to function if a part (the disk) fails. If the system itself fails (for instance if the logic board experiences an issue and starts writing gibberish to your RAID), you're done. That's why it's important to ensure you have a second copy of your data somewhere safe.

As far as backup solutions, most people use external hard drives. You can get 3TB drives for a pretty decent price these days. You mentioned that online archival isn't an option for you. If it was, I would suggest signing up for Carbonite or CrashPlan, as you won't have to worry about an external drive at that point. 

Depending on how much data you have, you may also be able to purchase a BluRay burner and use Bluray discs, which store 25GB on a single-layer disc or 50GB on a dual.



Trever1t said:


> The DROBO can repair the drive (?) after a restart it reads as functioning but "Healed" meaning that bad sectors are being skipped over (I guess?) Either way I'm having it replaced. These are built in Malaysia. Not sure if that's where thay all come from or not.



That's correct- for the Drobo NAS units, the "healed" means it basically just marks the bad disk error as unwritable and tries to utilize the area around the sector for the recovered data. I would certainly get the drives replaced. Just be careful with the array if you don't have a copy of the data.

Hope this is helpful.


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

Yes, and thanks! I have a bunch of externals, I'll BU to a couple of them, thanks!


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

just my two cents. But the reason I prolly spend so much on printing photos is I have no faith in data. This is probably because I spent too many years chasing lost files, having computers crash, having files mysteriously come up corrupted. Anything I want to keep, I print. you can back up, but ive had two failures before in the same week. so, sometimes the backup isn't really a backup.
The pita in retrieving info is something too. ive bought another laptop before JUST so I could take the drive out of one that died and retrieve the information putting the old drive in the new laptop..
bought a program whose sole purpose is to find and fix "misplaced files".
I really just don't have any faith in data. LIKE at all. And I got this way from spending many a hour and dollar trying to fix or retrieve it. I encourage everyone to have a backup , for the backup, of anything you really want to keep. If it comes down to something you totally absolutely need and plan on keeping it long term, put it in print. The money on the vehicle to keep the data isn't the main problem. The drive or computer aint worth crap its just the storage vehicle. it is the information on it that is valuable. Never used a online hosting service. But considering they put it in their own sort of drive, Im not sure I see the difference. Plus I wonder what happens if you forget to pay your yearly fee.


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## lambertpix (Apr 2, 2014)

Trever1t said:


> The DROBO can repair the drive (?) after a restart it reads as functioning but "Healed" meaning that bad sectors are being skipped over (I guess?) Either way I'm having it replaced. These are built in Malaysia. Not sure if that's where thay all come from or not.



Interesting.  Come to think of it, I had a pair of 1TB WD Blacks that I had running mirrored in a desktop, and every once in a while, one would just hiccup and drop out of the array.  I'd unplug it, plug it back in, and the the array asked if I wanted to rebuild onto the "new" volume.  These drives are now doing light duty in external USB cases where I don't mind too terribly much if they die.


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## lambertpix (Apr 2, 2014)

You know, maybe it's not a coincidence that they use the same naming scheme as Johnnie Walker.....


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

bribrius said:


> just my two cents. But the reason I prolly spend so much on printing photos is I have no faith in data. This is probably because I spent too many years chasing lost files, having computers crash, having files mysteriously come up corrupted. Anything I want to keep, I print. you can back up, but ive had two failures before in the same week. so, sometimes the backup isn't really a backup.
> The pita in retrieving info is something too. ive bought another laptop before JUST so I could take the drive out of one that died and retrieve the information putting the old drive in the new laptop..
> bought a program whose sole purpose is to find and fix "misplaced files".
> I really just don't have any faith in data. LIKE at all. And I got this way from spending many a hour and dollar trying to fix or retrieve it. I encourage everyone to have a backup , for the backup, of anything you really want to keep. If it comes down to something you totally absolutely need and plan on keeping it long term, put it in print. The money on the vehicle to keep the data isn't the main problem. The drive or computer aint worth crap its just the storage vehicle. it is the information on it that is valuable. Never used a online hosting service. But considering they put it in their own sort of drive, Im not sure I see the difference. Plus I wonder what happens if you forget to pay your yearly fee.



I have ~ 2T in images, most of which are not of any type I'd want to print (event work, models, etc) and may have a need to recall it at a later date for a client or model.


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

something else to consider to. is partitioning a drive. run two or three operating systems. Not sure how this works with the new platforms (ive tried 8 and Linux unsuccessfully) but in the older ones running two or three operating systems tended to guarantee a better chance of access at least. im out of date now. just throwing this out there...


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

happy you like it trevor. I went through my time with this, boot discs, manually flashing bios. Recovery disks (and diskettes old days).  honestly I pretty much hate data and avoid these types of things now. its sucked too many hours out of my life dealing with computers (I used to fix other peoples too for side money).  why my last laptops went out in the driveway and I ran them over with my truck. im outdated and not even fourty. older I get, the more I just don't want to deal with it. sorry I couldn't be a bigger help. if its small info, stack up some usb drives maybe. I wouldn't rely on them either though.


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## KmH (Apr 2, 2014)

Are you sure your Drobo 5N is getting sufficient air flow for cooling?


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

KmH said:


> Are you sure your Drobo 5N is getting sufficient air flow for cooling?


everything is way to hi-tech for such a issue now. :mrgreen: (did I mention a computer overheating the other day because there was stuff stuck in the fan so it wasn't spinning and the owner couldn't figure out why it was overheating?)


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

KmH said:


> Are you sure your Drobo 5N is getting sufficient air flow for cooling?


 It's on the floor under my workstation and doesn't get hot or make a lot of fan noise.


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## bribrius (Apr 2, 2014)

tape backup if must be. don't count on raid. again. two cents. putting all your data in one place, is not a backup.


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## Trever1t (Apr 2, 2014)

5 places with dual disc redundancy but yeah, I get it. Backing up now to 2x 2T externals.


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## IByte (Apr 2, 2014)

Trever1t said:


> I bought a Drobo 5N NAS in January and since then I've experienced 2 drive failures with the WD RED drives. WD RMA policy is cool, they ship me out a new drive and allow me to return the dead one without charge (A reconditioned unit, shipping not included) but what a PITA. 2 out of 5 drives in 2 months? The RED drives have a 3 year replacement warranty and I have enabled dual disc redundancy on the NAS so short of losing 3 drives at the same time I'm ok but dayum!!!
> 
> <img src="http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70036"/>
> 
> Is there a better drive? Is this normal?



http://www.synology.com/en-us/

Here you Trevor good child.


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## Rgollar (Apr 2, 2014)

I have 6 3 tb red western digital drives in my readynas pro for the last year and have had no problems yet. But I will say when I copy files to my nas it hangs up for 10 seconds sometimes before it copies. I am not overly impressed with these drive my self.


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## JerryLove (Apr 3, 2014)

Hit NewEgg's reviews on the WD Reds... Crib death is a *really* common problem (at least at 3TB and 4TB). They look reasonably reliable if they survive the first few months. 

I'm a long-time WD fan. Been using them almost exclusively since Seagate bought Maxtor and ended the excellent MaxLine prosumer drives (actually, was using WD since back in the Piranha 200MB drive days, but moved to the MaxLine when I discovered it (300GB days))... but I think the new 12TB array is going to be Hitachi. WD Red DOA , based on NewEgg feedback, seems around 50%.


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## cheshirecat79 (Apr 3, 2014)

bribrius said:


> tape backup if must be. don't count on raid. again. two cents. putting all your data in one place, is not a backup.



Tape isn't really feasible for home use. RAID can be counted on for redundancy. You're dead on correct about having copies of the data available in another physical location.


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## cheshirecat79 (Apr 3, 2014)

Rgollar said:


> I have 6 3 tb red western digital drives in my readynas pro for the last year and have had no problems yet. But I will say when I copy files to my nas it hangs up for 10 seconds sometimes before it copies. I am not overly impressed with these drive my self.



The 10 second delay is most likely the drives spooling up after being in a "sleep" state. You can change this setting in the ReadyNAS software- look for "drive spin down" in the power management settings. You may need to update the firmware to obtain this functionality.


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## TinySquid (Apr 3, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Hit NewEgg's reviews on the WD Reds... Crib death is a *really* common problem (at least at 3TB and 4TB). They look reasonably reliable if they survive the first few months.



Basically this. The WD Reds can be good drives if you're on a budget and are willing to not fully rely on the array for several months (not that you should be fully relying on an array for long term backup anyway...), but they're not really my cup of tea. I usually recommend the WD RE4 drives for NAS/fileserver RAID use depending on the specific application--they've proven to be pretty reliable in high demand applications and are covered by a 5 year warranty.

That said, I did cheap out on my own fileserver setup and ended up using an old LSI RAID card I salvaged from a server pared with four Hitachi (HGST) 2TB 7K3000 drives. They've been running fine for the past two years and the array is backed up automatically through Carbonite, so I'm not horribly worried about drives tanking.


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## JerryLove (Apr 3, 2014)

cheshirecat79 said:


> bribrius said:
> 
> 
> > tape backup if must be. don't count on raid. again. two cents. putting all your data in one place, is not a backup.
> ...


Everyone has their own definition of feasible. 

RAID is a way to reduce the chance of failure. Backup is a way to recover from failure. They are actually rather different concepts. 

I use CrashPlan. I use it two ways. I use the application to backup from my devices to a NAS at my parent's house (similarly, they backup to storage space at my house). I also back up to CrashPlan's online storage (which is unlimited, though upload speeds can be bad).


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## JerryLove (Apr 3, 2014)

TinySquid said:


> That said, I did cheap out on my own fileserver setup and ended up using an old LSI RAID card I salvaged from a server pared with four Hitachi (HGST) 2TB 7K3000 drives. They've been running fine for the past two years and the array is backed up automatically through Carbonite, so I'm not horribly worried about drives tanking.


 Believe it or not: I actually prefer software RAID for home storage (obviously: high usage storage, as I deal with in my working life, is a different story). The reason is that, should you LSI card fail, you may not be able to find hardware that would let you remount (assuming you are RAID 5 or RAID 0 (or variations thereof, rarely is this a problem with RAID 1). With software RAID, you can simply install the same software on new hardware and remount.

That said: I miss SBSs heterogeneous RAID configurations, and am honestly surprised no one sells a software RAID solution with that for home computers.


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## NjStacker22 (Apr 3, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> cheshirecat79 said:
> 
> 
> > bribrius said:
> ...



Can you explain to me how raid reduces your chance of failure? *honest question* I just had a friend build me a computer (AMD quad core, 16gb ram, USB 3.0, etc.) and I ended up using one of my old hard-drives plus another I had laying around (both 1TB WD's) just to get the computer done because it sucked up more money than I had anticipated. Anyway, with 2 weeks one of the drives failed :/ I have the RAID setup just to have a carbon copy of my first drive; in case anything ever went wrong. And in this case; it's served it's purpose in perfect timing. For the record I also have another 1tb HD in the case that I use for back up storage. I know that I need 3 new hard-drives (probably going to do 3x2 for the raid and a 3tb for the backup) but I'm starting to think I'm doing this wrong.


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## NjStacker22 (Apr 3, 2014)

FYI, good read...

Backblaze Blog » What Hard Drive Should I Buy?


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## TinySquid (Apr 3, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> TinySquid said:
> 
> 
> > That said, I did cheap out on my own fileserver setup and ended up using an old LSI RAID card I salvaged from a server pared with four Hitachi (HGST) 2TB 7K3000 drives. They've been running fine for the past two years and the array is backed up automatically through Carbonite, so I'm not horribly worried about drives tanking.
> ...



Actually, that's a good point to make and why most people who aren't hardware hoarders and decide to put together their own fileserver for home/photography use are probably better off with a software RAID configuration. I, on the other hand, have spares of...well...everything.


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## cheshirecat79 (Apr 3, 2014)

NjStacker22 said:


> Can you explain to me how raid reduces your chance of failure? *honest question* I just had a friend build me a computer (AMD quad core, 16gb ram, USB 3.0, etc.) and I ended up using one of my old hard-drives plus another I had laying around (both 1TB WD's) just to get the computer done because it sucked up more money than I had anticipated. Anyway, with 2 weeks one of the drives failed :/ I have the RAID setup just to have a carbon copy of my first drive; in case anything ever went wrong. And in this case; it's served it's purpose in perfect timing. For the record I also have another 1tb HD in the case that I use for back up storage. I know that I need 3 new hard-drives (probably going to do 3x2 for the raid and a 3tb for the backup) but I'm starting to think I'm doing this wrong.



RAID (redundant array of independent disks) doesn't really protect from "failure", which is sort of a bad word for it- it does, however, protect against downtime. It will enable you to still remain productive even though a critical system device has failed. It's the same line of thinking that gives you two headlights on your car. If one fails, you still have another to get you home at night. However, if both go out, you can't drive. 

There are many different types of RAID configurations. The one you're using (sounds like RAID1) is just basic mirroring- whatever goes on drive one copies over to drive two. Because of this, if one of the drives fails, you'll still be able to work on your computer, as you experienced, as you have a complete copy of all your files on the other drive. Your computer sees this and starts using the "good" drive automatically. Once you replace the bad drive, the computer will typically "rebuild the array" (ie, copy all the data over to the new drive) so that they both have the same data again.

There are many different types of RAID. Some are performance-based, some are redundancy-based (which we are discussing here) and some are combinations of the two (typically in business environments). 

As far as your comment about using your third hard drive as a backup, this just makes me a little nervous, assuming you're talking about a third internal drive. When considering a backup solution, always think about the ways a backup may be compromised. If you keep a third hard drive inside the computer, where will your data be if someone steals the computer? What about if you get hit by lightning and the drives get fried? In most instances, you'll be fine. The likelihood of all the drives going down at once is very low. However, a "very low" chance at losing everything you've ever worked on is still unacceptable- make sure you have a bulletproof archive stowed away somewhere at the very least, even if it's just unprocessed raw files that you dump onto something and put somewhere safe.

For this reason, I strongly suggest you, at the very least, keep an off-computer copy of your data on a separate device or media. Using an online backup is a great option- many services offer yearly subscription plans for approx $50-60/yr that will give you a bulletproof archive that always runs in the background and keeps you up to date. You can also use external hard drives or burn to Blu-Ray if you'd rather do it yourself.


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## NjStacker22 (Apr 3, 2014)

cheshirecat79 said:


> NjStacker22 said:
> 
> 
> > Can you explain to me how raid reduces your chance of failure? *honest question* I just had a friend build me a computer (AMD quad core, 16gb ram, USB 3.0, etc.) and I ended up using one of my old hard-drives plus another I had laying around (both 1TB WD's) just to get the computer done because it sucked up more money than I had anticipated. Anyway, with 2 weeks one of the drives failed :/ I have the RAID setup just to have a carbon copy of my first drive; in case anything ever went wrong. And in this case; it's served it's purpose in perfect timing. For the record I also have another 1tb HD in the case that I use for back up storage. I know that I need 3 new hard-drives (probably going to do 3x2 for the raid and a 3tb for the backup) but I'm starting to think I'm doing this wrong.
> ...



Thank you for the explanation + suggestions. I have a 120GB SSD (which is too small and maxed out) for all my software, the RAID setup for all my main files and the other HD for storage of files that I could afford to lose. Ex: Movies, music, etc. There's tons of stuff on there but if I lost it; it's not like losing work. I would just have a lot of downloading to do. Also, I use dropbox as my cloud service and pay for the 100GB plan. Right now, this only holds my "best shots" and work related stuff. All my of other photos were on with my RAID setup that is now only running on a single.... old... 1TB... WD HD. It's scary :/


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## bribrius (Apr 3, 2014)

This is actually a good thread. Reminds me im over due for a backup and I need to buy something fireproof to put my externals in in case the house burns down because I would lose years of family pics and movies (which I would be more concerned about than the house burning down the house is insured)


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