# Photo sessions...am i messing up already?



## GlowingAmber (Nov 21, 2012)

Hey everyone!  Just discovered this forum tonight, and this is my first post. Love it so far! 
I've been a hobby photographer for many years, but just recently getting more serious and confident enough to sell. I have nature photo items on Etsy, and recently booked my first 5 family sessions in the next 2 weeks!  I'm diving right in, and I'm loving it! Question about my pricing. I'm currently charging a flat $50 for the session, with edited images on a disc. Im staying in my county, doing 15 edited images, maybe 3 hrs total in each session with traveling and editing. That's it, no prints right now. Seemed easy for everyone, and a good way to get myself out there. I searched and couldnt find any discussion on this. Am I messing up already?  Is this a hot topic for argument?  I'm excited to read some opinions! 
Thank you!


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## ColeGauthier (Nov 22, 2012)

Google "CODB" and "Are my prices too low, photography" and you'll have all the information you'll ever need. Oh and maybe a degree in business, yeah, that might help.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 22, 2012)

You'll 'get yourself out there' as a cheap photographer who works for virtually nothing.

This is a terrible terrible mistake.


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## sm4him (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes, you're making a huge mistake. The mistake isn't charging $50--the mistake is clearly having no idea what you NEED to charge; what your CODB (Cost of Doing Business) is.  My guess is you also don't have a business plan, you just "dove right in there." Fail to plan, plan to fail.

I'm still on my first cup of coffee this morning, so I don't yet have enough energy to look up any of the specific threads for you--but the best thing I can tell you to do is go to the Community --> Search Members function; find MLeek and go to her profile page. Click on her "recent started threads" and then click on any topic that sounds like it might have something to do with the information you need. She did one on how starting a business is like building a house that was excellent, and also has several about the whole CODB issue (though CODB may not be in the title of the thread).


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## gsgary (Nov 22, 2012)

Another Best Buy pro


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## Scuba (Nov 22, 2012)

gsgary said:
			
		

> Another Best Buy pro



Why would you say this? Just rude.

I think what the people above said about CODB is key and you need to figure it out.  I don't think there is a problem with doing a certain amount of shoots at a discounted rate then increasing prices because price is dependent of skill and right now you are new.

What you also need to examine is do you have to appropriate gear and knowledge to be doing work for money yet?


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## gsgary (Nov 22, 2012)

Scuba said:
			
		

> Why would you say this? Just rude.
> 
> I think what the people above said about CODB is key and you need to figure it out.  I don't think there is a problem with doing a certain amount of shoots at a discounted rate then increasing prices because price is dependent of skill and right now you are new.
> 
> What you also need to examine is do you have to appropriate gear and knowledge to be doing work for money yet?



Ill bet you as much as you want they have had the camera less than 6 months, and i will say what i want


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## manaheim (Nov 22, 2012)




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## Scuba (Nov 22, 2012)

gsgary said:
			
		

> Ill bet you as much as you want they have had the camera less than 6 months, and i will say what i want



Maybe they have and maybe they haven't but you are assuming.  There is no point to your comment.  So what if they have had their camera 6 months we have no idea their skill level at this point. Why make a comment that is likely to push someone away from this site and maybe even photography? Certainly is classy but go ahead say what you want from behind a computer.


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## Mully (Nov 22, 2012)

Pricing yourself that low hurts the photographer community in the long run.  Over the last 40 years I have watched the photo community sell themselves out so that now it is hard for many starting up to make a living. In the 1980's it was bidding wars for jobs, some agencies would want 3-4 bids. Not to pick on you but don't sell yourself or the photo community short!


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## sm4him (Nov 22, 2012)

manaheim said:


>



I started to say, "hey, I got the popcorn out first!" but honestly, this one might require several bags.


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## tirediron (Nov 22, 2012)

Lessee... three hours for $50... so, we'll lop about 1/3 off for taxes, licensing, etc, that leaves $35. Travel, that usually takes gas and car maintenance. Let's assume you don't have to go very far, so we'll say $5.00. You're down to $30. Wear & tear on equipment... $5.00 (includes insurance). Hmmmm... getting down there, only $25 left. Oh wait... gotta buy the CDs, oh yeah, and electricity for the house... Call that $2 just to be conservative. You'll likely talk to the client at least once or twice, probably on your cell, and "need" a coffee while you're out. I think that could come to $3.00... oh, look, only $20 left, divide by three. That means you're working for less than $6.75/hour and we haven't even thought about putting money aside for that pair of pants you ripped on the thorn-bushes in the park, the flat-tire you had on the way to the session, or the fact that you're going out to redo that last session because Mrs Smith HATED every picture, and you're contract (Ooops... yeah, need those too... reveiwed by a lawyer at ~$300/hour is good... ) doesn't mention any sort of satisfaction.

IF you're making $3/hour by the time everything is done, you're lucky. I don't know about you, but I'm not even going to get out of bed for $3/hour!


And VERY DEFINITELY read everything MLeek has written on the topic!


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## The_Traveler (Nov 22, 2012)

tirediron said:


> IF you're making $3/hour by the time everything is done, you're lucky. I don't know about you, but I'm not even going to get out of bed for $3/hour!



And, unless the female is attractive, I wouldn't even get into bed for $3 hour.
What would I do with 60 cents?


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

I read a lot before I posted this, so I knew what to expect from those who may not agree. I enjoy all the feedback. Thank you Scuba for having my back. I'm 36, and I started really wanting to take good pictures when my first son was born 8 years ago. I think that's a big difference between some people starting out. They may think its an easy money maker, just pick up the camera and sell...but you have to feel it in your heart, and want to always do your best for everyone, and that is me.  I really feel it, and since I have that fire in me,I have to start somewhere. 
My 5 sessions coming up are for families in my moms group. I'm helping them out by giving them a nice christmas card photo, and they're throwing me some money for my time. Its like someone hiring a lawn guy, or a house painter... being paid for my time and hopefully be recommended to more people. Dont I have to "prove myself" before I start charging a premium? I live in a small town 40 minutes from savannah. My competition is a girl on facebook selling $10 mini sessions including a few prints, and a disc!  Now thats crazy!!  The next one has a $49 package that includes several prints, and a disc for sharing.  My CODB is not much really...a gallon of gas, the cost of a blank disc, and my time.
So, when I start to pick back up in spring, do you all recommend doing prints only?  Go somewhere like zenfolio?  the business license will come soon, i know i need to do that.
Oh yeah, and i have a degree in business from UF, though agribusiness, and i cant remember a darn thing i learned. 
Thank you, I enjoy this.... and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!


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## orljustin (Nov 22, 2012)

" My competition is a girl on facebook selling $10 mini sessions including a few prints, and a disc! Now thats crazy!!"

Lol, you're just as crazy.  Do what you like, you'll surely be a hit with people who don't value photography and want as close to free as possible.


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## pixmedic (Nov 22, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> I read a lot before I posted this, so I knew what to expect from those who may not agree. I enjoy all the feedback. Thank you Scuba for having my back. I'm 36, and I started really wanting to take good pictures when my first son was born 8 years ago. I think that's a big difference between some people starting out. They may think its an easy money maker, just pick up the camera and sell...but you have to feel it in your heart, and want to always do your best for everyone, and that is me.  I really feel it, and since I have that fire in me,I have to start somewhere.
> My 5 sessions coming up are for families in my moms group. I'm helping them out by giving them a nice christmas card photo, and they're throwing me some money for my time. Its like someone hiring a lawn guy, or a house painter... being paid for my time and hopefully be recommended to more people. Dont I have to "prove myself" before I start charging a premium? I live in a small town 40 minutes from savannah. My competition is a girl on facebook selling $10 mini sessions including a few prints, and a disc!  Now thats crazy!!  The next one has a $49 package that includes several prints, and a disc for sharing.  My CODB is not much really...a gallon of gas, the cost of a blank disc, and my time.
> So, when I start to pick back up in spring, do you all recommend doing prints only?  Go somewhere like zenfolio?  the business license will come soon, i know i need to do that.
> Oh yeah, and i have a degree in business from UF, though agribusiness, and i cant remember a darn thing i learned.
> Thank you, I enjoy this.... and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!



im sorry, but your assessment of your CODB is inaccurate. at least to what it SHOULD be. 
when my wife goes to do any photography job, she has to account for wear and tear on equipment, her time, gas, the taxes we pay on that income (on EVERY amount we earn), the liability and equipment insurance we pay..etc etc. and all that is taken out BEFORE we can even calculate profit on a job.   EVERY job you get paid for should have a contract. no exceptions. 
as soon as you start taking money for work, you should have a Tax ID for when you file your business taxes. liability insurance isn't a state requirement (in florida anyway), but it should be YOUR requirement.  as a professional photographer (and thats what you become when you get paid for it) your liability when on site or working becomes MUCH different than if you were just somewhere as a friend with a camera snapping photos. 
as silly as this all seems to a lot of people that just want to use their camera to make some extra side money, make your business legal and protect yourself both tax wise, and liability wise before you get too far with it. At the point where you find out you REALLY NEED those things, it will be too late.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

thank you pixmedic for the helpful advice.


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## KmH (Nov 22, 2012)

$50 divided by 3 hours = $16.67 per hour. That doesn't include the cost of the disc of images.
Don't forget to include time you spend with the customer pre and post shoot.

Out of that $16.67 you have to pay all of your non-reimbursed business expenses, cost of goods sold, and your salary:
Wear and tear your camera gear
Insurance for your car.
Wear and tear on your car.
Gas for the car
Business liability, indemnity and/or E&O insurance.
Legal and accounting services.
Phone expenses.
Computer & Internet access
Software
Postage
Taxes and licenses
Advertising and promotion
Professional development
Other utilities
Etc.

In short, you're likely making a bit above minimum wage, if that. You may be indirectly paying customers to let you shoot photos for them.

*(YOUR SALARY + YOUR BUSINESS EXPENSES) ÷ SHOOT DAYS PER YEAR = DAILY CODB

*https://www.nppa.org/calculator


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## thetrue (Nov 22, 2012)

Is there sales tax in GA? You'll need to charge that on every single job unless they're tax exempt with the proper paperwork that you MUST keep on file for when the state wants their money. There's a lot to take care of before you're legally operating as a business, and I hope you don't get caught up in legal issues before you legalize your business.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes, sales tax in GA.  
Thank you KmH and thetrue.


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## MLeeK (Nov 22, 2012)

Well, I will tell you that with your prices you are losing your ass hand over fist. 
I just wrote a series of posts for you last month... 
Here they are in order:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ng-business-building-house-2.html#post2707594
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...g-your-codb-your-hourly-rate.html#post2758677
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...wer-what-do-i-charge-for____.html#post2757989


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## Rwsphotos (Nov 22, 2012)

This seems the attitude of late I'll get to it eventually.......gah.   Before I started charging I did all the necessary foot work got all the permits before worrying about prices. Business license is not somthing you put on the side burner and get back too...   As for your cost of business you have grossly miss calculated your costs at gass and time. Seems to me you miss calculated your time as well. Three hours is not enough to cover shooting, travel, editing and client consultation.  I would say your losing money at $50. Oh add in your Dba and fees for your website on top of the list mentioned by previous members.


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## tirediron (Nov 22, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> ...I have to start somewhere.


Yes you do, BUT you're starting from a position of disadvantage.  You DO NOT want these people recommending you.  Why?  Because they're going to tell people what they got for ONLY $50!  When you try and raise prices to a more realistic level,  you're going to get HUGE customer push-back.  The best recommendation you can get from any customer is, "Wow, he's expensive, but I'm so glad I went, it was worth every penny!"



GlowingAmber said:


> ...Its like someone hiring a lawn guy, or a house painter... being paid for my time and hopefully be recommended to more people. Dont I have to "prove myself" before I start charging a premium?


  Perhaps, but you're nowhere near charging a premium.  What you need to do is be able to produce a quality product BEFORE you go into business so that people are recommending YOU and YOUR WORK.



GlowingAmber said:


> I live in a small town 40 minutes from savannah. My competition is a girl on facebook selling $10 mini sessions including a few prints, and a disc! Now thats crazy!! The next one has a $49 package that includes several prints, and a disc for sharing.


These people are no one's competition.



GlowingAmber said:


> My CODB is not much really...a gallon of gas, the cost of a blank disc, and my time.


I don't think you have a clue what your CODB is right now.



GlowingAmber said:


> So, when I start to pick back up in spring, do you all recommend doing prints only? Go somewhere like zenfolio?


While many here may strongly disagree, I am confirmly convinced that the 'digital only' model is a valid one, out of necessity, for many family photographers.  The simple fact is that many (most?) people only use photographs in electronic format and have no need or interest in physical prints any more.  Yes, I can try and sell prints (for which there's a good mark-up) or, I can save the time and money and do more sessions selling digital files.



GlowingAmber said:


> the business license will come soon, i know i need to do that.


If you're taking money, that's the FIRST thing, NOT the last thing.  If you're doing work for family and friends, consider doing it in trade (free meals are always good).


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

thank you tirediron, thats a lot of good stuff


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## JSER (Nov 22, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> You'll 'get yourself out there' as a cheap photographer who works for virtually nothing.
> 
> This is a terrible terrible mistake.



Could not agree more $50 is a joke


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## gsgary (Nov 22, 2012)

JSER said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > You'll 'get yourself out there' as a cheap photographer who works for virtually nothing.
> ...



$50 wont buy many pasties  i wouldn't get out of bed for that


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Rwsphotos said:


> This seems the attitude of late I'll get to it eventually.......gah.   Before I started charging I did all the necessary foot work got all the permits before worrying about prices. Business license is not somthing you put on the side burner and get back too...   As for your cost of business you have grossly miss calculated your costs at gass and time. Seems to me you miss calculated your time as well. Three hours is not enough to cover shooting, travel, editing and client consultation.  I would say your losing money at $50. Oh add in your Dba and fees for your website on top of the list mentioned by previous members.



I wanted to make sure I can do great work for other people before jumping into making it all legal. So my mistake is charging while I'm learning?  I've been a stay at home mom for 8 years, and im actually happy to be paid for something finally! If these clients this weekend really dig my work, then I'll have the winter to make it all legal before jumping back in the spring.... right, or no?


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## thetrue (Nov 22, 2012)

I say make sure you can do great work for yourself first.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

I think I can do great work, thats why i wanted to go to the next level.  thank you


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## thetrue (Nov 22, 2012)

Can we see some of your photos? Maybe we can help you to make them even better!


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Sure!  i didnt want to bother by asking!  you are welcome to check out my facebook page www.facebook.com/GlowingAmberPhotography. Thank you!


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## Tee (Nov 22, 2012)

You're priced right at $50 as a Facebook photographer.  Or...close the page, take some courses and come back charging more.  Sorry.  Just being real.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

i really appreciate that thetrue. that was awesome of you to offer.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

thank you Tee, ill check it out!


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## unpopular (Nov 22, 2012)

your ego should not be proportional to your bottom line. if there is a large enough market for a $50 photographer, then $50 isn't too cheap.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Tee said:


> You're priced right at $50 as a Facebook photographer.  Or...close the page, take some courses and come back charging more.  Sorry.  Just being real.


Just wanted friends and family to see what im doing on facebook. All this literally happened in the last month.  courses on photography, or business, or both?  ive only taken an online course, and dont even have equipment other than the canon kit and a prime lens. i want to get better everyday, thats why im on this forum and researching always. do you think its a pretty good start so far? some talent to work with?


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## JSER (Nov 22, 2012)

Don't forget if you are doing photography with the public only a fool (no disrespect intended) will not also pay to have public liability insurance, and that is FOUR $50 shoots AT LEAST


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## unpopular (Nov 22, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> Just wanted friends and family to see what im doing on facebook. All this literally happened in the last month. courses on photography, or business, or both? ive only taken an online course, and dont even have equipment other than the canon kit and a prime lens. i want to get better everyday, thats why im on this forum and researching always. do you think its a pretty good start so far? some talent to work with?



You have a good eye, I think. Certainly I am not seeing anything horrendous, nothing you see at youarenotaphotographer.com. You have some major technical issues tackle, especially dealing with where to place focus. I can tell you're not 100% confident on metering and exposure, and there is a lack of attention to detail.

But there are far worse "pros" out there, and lots of people start out at what I'm seeing from your facebook. I think if you're dedicated you'll do fine in the long run. I would encourage you to get a little more experience before charging people. You don't want to get out the door with a poor reputation.


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## thetrue (Nov 22, 2012)

Well... I'm going to try to be as nice as possible... It seems like you might have focus issues. Some of your images are very nice, very colorful, and overall decent captures. However a good number of them, particularly of people, are slightly out if focus. It's not just one or two, its most of them. Do you rely on autofocus? Don't. It can get you close, but not perfect, ever. I very much dislike the soft focus treatments you added to quite a few of your landscape/nature photos. Overall, I really don't think you're ready to charge people. If you really truly believe that you're ready, I'm not your boss, I'm not the government, and I'm certainly not the king of all things photographic, so you can most certainly do as you wish. I can't honestly say that if I were in the market for portraits that I'd choose you. Outside of friends and family, do you have an idea of what the people in your market expect? Don't include the "customers" of the $10 photo shoot, they might as well be shot with a cell phone. I feel that a lot of market research and a bit of practice are certainly in order before you really consider moving forward. COBD and legalities aside, I don't think you really know what you're getting in to.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

thetrue said:


> Well... I'm going to try to be as nice as possible... It seems like you might have focus issues. Some of your images are very nice, very colorful, and overall decent captures. However a good number of them, particularly of people, are slightly out if focus. It's not just one or two, its most of them. Do you rely on autofocus? Don't. It can get you close, but not perfect, ever. I very much dislike the soft focus treatments you added to quite a few of your landscape/nature photos. Overall, I really don't think you're ready to charge people. If you really truly believe that you're ready, I'm not your boss, I'm not the government, and I'm certainly not the king of all things photographic, so you can most certainly do as you wish. I can't honestly say that if I were in the market for portraits that I'd choose you. Outside of friends and family, do you have an idea of what the people in your market expect? Don't include the "customers" of the $10 photo shoot, they might as well be shot with a cell phone. I feel that a lot of market research and a bit of practice are certainly in order before you really consider moving forward. COBD and legalities aside, I don't think you really know what you're getting in to.



i softened up my people, cause i like the softness of a professional photo. so how do you get that soft look? from one of the special effects filters, a lens, a better job editing?


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

unpopular said:


> GlowingAmber said:
> 
> 
> > Just wanted friends and family to see what im doing on facebook. All this literally happened in the last month. courses on photography, or business, or both? ive only taken an online course, and dont even have equipment other than the canon kit and a prime lens. i want to get better everyday, thats why im on this forum and researching always. do you think its a pretty good start so far? some talent to work with?
> ...


 thank you very much unpopular. like i said to thetrue, i softened them up on purpose... i like the soft look...is that not the way to do it anymore?


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## unpopular (Nov 22, 2012)

^ there is more than a perhaps heavy-handed airbrush technique. I can tell you've missed the focus in places. Your airbrushing technique certainly also needs help; this especially if people are mistaking it for lack of proper sharpness and detail.


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## KmH (Nov 22, 2012)

GlowingAmber - Step #1 is a well researched and documented business plan.
Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov
Free Small Business Advice | How-to Resources | Tools | Templates | SCORE

You'll need to find out your cities requirements for business registration/licensing/taxes and other requirements. For instance, the small town I live in prohibits having a home based business.

You'll also need to be familiar with US federal copyright law - U.S. Copyright Office

Plus your state's legal requirements for contracts, model/property release, and right of publicity statutes.


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## Rwsphotos (Nov 22, 2012)

Nothing against stay at home moms making money. I am one after all. But you make it legal first. Once you start charging you are putting yourself out as a professional. As a professional all your i's should be dotted and t's crossed. You have a fb page with a company name have you registered it as a DBA? Not hard not expensive but required. And your charging are you collecting tax? Than you need to file your tax id. You can't start charging and say I'll make it legal later... if you want to do it my suggestion is to do it right.


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## dbvirago (Nov 22, 2012)

gsgary said:


> JSER said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



That depends. Pasties means something different over here


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

thank you everyone. you've given me almost too much to think about!  just wish me luck this weekend.. i'll try and post a photo or 2 and get your opinions.


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## Tee (Nov 22, 2012)

You made a good first step by joining this forum and if this is truly something that you're committed to, I encourage you to stick around. One night when you put the kiddo's to bed and you have some time, click on each forum and then click on the "replies/posts" tab and it'll re-order the forum from most replies to least.  Grab a cold one and kick back and start reading the threads.  You will find many epic threads and threads very similar to this one. 

Three nitpicks after seeing your photo album (take with large dose of salt):

1. Be aware of sun falling on subjects face.  Some images have really blown out skin/ squinting
2.  Color calibrate your monitor.  You have some white balance issues (particularly with images that have a lot of green in them which is common)
3.  Selective coloring coloring is *never* OK. :mrgreen:


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Tee said:


> You made a good first step by joining this forum and if this is truly something that you're committed to, I encourage you to stick around. One night when you put the kiddo's to bed and you have some time, click on each forum and then click on the "replies/posts" tab and it'll re-order the forum from most replies to least.  Grab a cold one and kick back and start reading the threads.  You will find many epic threads and threads very similar to this one.
> 
> Three nitpicks after seeing your photo album (take with large dose of salt):
> 
> ...



Thanks for the nitpicks. Can you explain selective coloring to me please?


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## Tee (Nov 22, 2012)

You have an image of your kids in the woods.  The woods are black and white and the kids are in color.


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## orljustin (Nov 22, 2012)

You've got three built in models.  You should be practicing on them and your family if you fancy yourself a family portrait photographer.  You shouldn't be taking business until you've gotten a lot better with how you should shoot them.  At least get a reflector and learn how to use it.  Right now your selling point is 'I push the button so you don't have to'.  You should have a portfolio full of great shots of your kids and right now all you have are snapshots.


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## tirediron (Nov 22, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> Thanks for the nitpicks. Can you explain selective coloring to me please?


This.  DON'T do it!


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

Tee said:


> You have an image of your kids in the woods.  The woods are black and white and the kids are in color.


Oh, ok. Gotcha. I thought that was neat.. and have gotten compliments on that one specifically..


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

orljustin said:


> You've got three built in models.  You should be practicing on them and your family if you fancy yourself a family portrait photographer.  You shouldn't be taking business until you've gotten a lot better with how you should shoot them.  At least get a reflector and learn how to use it.  Right now your selling point is 'I push the button so you don't have to'.  You should have a portfolio full of great shots of your kids and right now all you have are snapshots.



thanks. im trying, learning everyday. taking pics of my family almost everyday. this is where im at right now, and all i can do is keep learning.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 22, 2012)

tirediron said:


> GlowingAmber said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the nitpicks. Can you explain selective coloring to me please?
> ...



LOL! got it!


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## orljustin (Nov 23, 2012)

tirediron said:


> GlowingAmber said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the nitpicks. Can you explain selective coloring to me please?
> ...



Does anyone ever study successful photographers and style before starting a 'business'?


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## orljustin (Nov 23, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > You've got three built in models.  You should be practicing on them and your family if you fancy yourself a family portrait photographer.  You shouldn't be taking business until you've gotten a lot better with how you should shoot them.  At least get a reflector and learn how to use it.  Right now your selling point is 'I push the button so you don't have to'.  You should have a portfolio full of great shots of your kids and right now all you have are snapshots.
> ...



How are you 'learning'?  Are you reading books?  Studying websites?  Taking classes?  Going to camera clubs?  Or just doing the same thing repeatedly, hoping something will magically get better?


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> GlowingAmber said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...



easy orljustin... why so grumpy? yes, studying websites, youtube, online course... thanks for your concern...


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## Tee (Nov 23, 2012)

Check out Adorama TV and Snapfactory YouTube channels.  Both have a wide range of easy to understand videos for beginners to advanced.


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## sm4him (Nov 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> You've got three built in models.  You should be practicing on them and your family if you fancy yourself a family portrait photographer.  You shouldn't be taking business until you've gotten a lot better with how you should shoot them.  At least get a reflector and learn how to use it. * Right now your selling point is 'I push the button so you don't have to'.*  You should have a portfolio full of great shots of your kids and right now all you have are snapshots.



I'm not referring to the OP in any way by emphasizing this line, I just gotta say, that made me truly laugh out loud!! I've always said I'm not really planning to "go pro", but I've changed my mind--I'm creating my website TODAY and THIS is gonna be my motto!   I bet I could do pretty well with it.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

Thank you Tee!


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## terri (Nov 23, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> Thank you Tee!


And thank YOU, Glow, for not lashing back at the Welcome Committee - I mean, the members of this site who like to help out with advice.  :er:  I expected this thread to go off the rails about 2 pages ago!  You are a mature person with a tough skin - so guess what?  With some more photography experience, you stand a very good chance of becoming a real pro.   

I also took a look at your FB shots, and I agree that you should deep-six the "soft look".  They just come across as out of focus.  Little software tricks like selective coloring are more faddish in nature, though I don't hold it against you for trying different looks.  I understand that when you get positive feedback from family and friends, it's encouraging, but what you DO need to help you grow as a photographer is more positive feedback from more experienced photographers.   Since you clearly have the backbone for it (as you have so nicely demonstrated here), please keep posting and listening to the feedback and critique.  Shut out the noise from those who tell you your work is crap but have nothing to offer as to how to improve - those are just the bullies.   

 I think you are developing a good eye for some things - the shot of the shy little girl clinging to Mom's leg is sweet.  This is probably what your immediate clients (friends this weekend) are after.  Since you can deliver this level of quality, you should feel okay going into this type of shoot.  Right now you are giving some neighbors an inexpensive option for holiday shots because they probably can't afford studio package prices, and for a couple of hours of your time it's a casual trade-off that does little harm.  What the others are cautioning you against is getting too heady and trying to take things to the next level and undercharging to get jobs you aren't ready to take on.  This DOES hurt the industry and real pros who have spent years developing all levels of their craft.   YOU might get to the stage where you've put together some holiday package offers and those very neighbors still might not be able to pay, but someone 2 blocks over could step in and casually undercut you.   Think long-term if want to take this seriously, and be careful, that's all.  

As far as the business end, contact a local accountant for tax specifics.  A quick meeting can ease your mind and let you know what you need to do.  If you report what you make your accountant will make sure it's all on the up and up.  States differ in certain small business requirements, so make an investment in having an accountant to educate you.


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## terri (Nov 23, 2012)

sm4him said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > You've got three built in models.  You should be practicing on them and your family if you fancy yourself a family portrait photographer.  You shouldn't be taking business until you've gotten a lot better with how you should shoot them.  At least get a reflector and learn how to use it. * Right now your selling point is 'I push the button so you don't have to'.*  You should have a portfolio full of great shots of your kids and right now all you have are snapshots.
> ...


It's just a play on words from the old Kodak slogan. "You press the button, we do the rest."  Amazing how little things have changed when dealing with consumers, isn't it?


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

ahhh, thank you terri. i appreciate the good, bad, and ugly!  yes, feeling better


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## Derrel (Nov 23, 2012)

Congratulations! You survived the browbeating!!!


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

woohoo! after all this, im not even a newbie anymore!


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## terri (Nov 23, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> woohoo! after all this, im not even a newbie anymore!


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## orljustin (Nov 23, 2012)

'It's just a play on words from the old Kodak slogan. "You press the button, we do the rest."'

No, actually it wasn't.  More like scrubbing bubbles:
What company used the advertising slogan "We work hard so you don't have to?"

"This DOES hurt the industry and real pros who have spent years developing all levels of their craft"

It's doubtful a MWAC will affect any serious pro.  It's possible the pro will gain more business from unsatisfied customers.


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## unpopular (Nov 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> "This DOES hurt the industry and real pros who have spent years developing all levels of their craft"



OP has no obligation to "real pros" or "the industry". If the "real pros" can't keep up with the MWACs out there, then that's "the industry's" problem.


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## MLeeK (Nov 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> 'It's just a play on words from the old Kodak slogan. "You press the button, we do the rest."'
> 
> No, actually it wasn't.  More like scrubbing bubbles:
> What company used the advertising slogan "We work hard so you don't have to?"
> ...


MWAC/AWAC's are not any damage to a pro. We sure as hell don't want their customers, they can't afford us so if they're filling a need for a corner of the industry, who cares? 
The people paying $50 for everything plus the kitchen sink (and wal mart isn't even THAT cheap) are NOT going to pay a couple hundred dollar sitting fee and a real professional's prices. So, the MWAC/AWAC's and I are good. I like them! I hate to see them losing money and not know it, but they don't scare me or hurt the industry in any way.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

orljustin said:


> 'It's just a play on words from the old Kodak slogan. "You press the button, we do the rest."'
> 
> No, actually it wasn't.  More like scrubbing bubbles:
> What company used the advertising slogan "We work hard so you don't have to?"
> ...



the pros then must've thought the same about you when you were starting out.  or, did you jump out of bed one morning and "magically get better"?


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## Ilovemycam (Nov 23, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> Hey everyone!  Just discovered this forum tonight, and this is my first post. Love it so far!
> I've been a hobby photographer for many years, but just recently getting more serious and confident enough to sell. I have nature photo items on Etsy, and recently booked my first 5 family sessions in the next 2 weeks!  I'm diving right in, and I'm loving it! Question about my pricing. I'm currently charging a flat $50 for the session, with edited images on a disc. Im staying in my county, doing 15 edited images, maybe 3 hrs total in each session with traveling and editing. That's it, no prints right now. Seemed easy for everyone, and a good way to get myself out there. I searched and couldnt find any discussion on this. Am I messing up already?  Is this a hot topic for argument?  I'm excited to read some opinions!
> Thank you!




Good for you! I try to do it for free and have no luck. Can't even give my photography away. 

If you get $50 that is great! Best of luck with your biz.


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## MLeeK (Nov 23, 2012)

GlowingAmber said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > 'It's just a play on words from the old Kodak slogan. "You press the button, we do the rest."'
> ...


The ideal would be to master the craft and THEN go into business as a true professional. Instead of winging it and learning on the fly while acting as a professional. That's where I started. College education and many years working for others before finally going into business. But that is not where most people start these days. I'd have also been far better served had I gotten a business degree instead of photojournalism. 
It used to be the norm that you mastered the craft THEN went into business, however it's not anymore. There are 7billion people in the world. There is a market for every level these days. The only person the AWAC/MWAC is hurting is their own future business when they put out sub-par work. It comes back to bite you in the butt. If you can overcome that hurdle? You're golden. 
That post I gave you on building a house will be the determining factor as to whether you can overcome it or not. If you have a good plan and have educated yourself you'll do it just fine.


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## pixmedic (Nov 23, 2012)

I know its difficult nowadays to find someone to work under or second shoot for, but that is really a great way to do it.  My wife spent several years with a pro wedding photographer that was a family friend before doing a single photo on her own that she was paid for. It not only helps you learn how to shoot,  but how to deal with clients,  set up contracts,  plan the shoot, setup, teardown,  and everything in between. Call some photographers not quite in your area and ask about helping them out for free on whatever they are shooting. Carry gear around, watch and listen... And learn.  Then you can do.  And hopefully do well.


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## GlowingAmber (Nov 23, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> I know its difficult nowadays to find someone to work under or second shoot for, but that is really a great way to do it.  My wife spent several years with a pro wedding photographer that was a family friend before doing a single photo on her own that she was paid for. It not only helps you learn how to shoot,  but how to deal with clients,  set up contracts,  plan the shoot, setup, teardown,  and everything in between. Call some photographers not quite in your area and ask about helping them out for free on whatever they are shooting. Carry gear around, watch and listen... And learn.  Then you can do.  And hopefully do well.


that sounds like a great idea, i would love to do that. thank you.


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