# What does 'Alien Bees' gear mean to the photography world?



## kkamin

It seems like Alien Bees gear is very popular nowadays but don't really understand what that means. 

Is it popular because it is very affordable?  Is it stigmatized with the pros?  

I haven't ever seen or used their products, but I just went to their website and their equipment seems reasonably priced, but it doesn't seem like  its the cheapest either.

Thanks!


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## shmne

It is the middle of the line gear, at least in my opinion. The best starting place if you plan on going pro, since they are very affordable, very durable, and easily modified all things considered. They are good enough to get you started and last you a lifetime if you want them to.

Many pros dislike them because they have a long flash duration, and seem cheesy. Personally I love the fact that they come in colors (I'm weird). Granted most people say they are garbage because of the cheap plastics used for the casing, from what I've heard they can be dropped with little damage (meaning little enough to where the light is fully functioning, with the flash tube shattered). The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second. 

I won't be getting Alien Bees mainly because of their flash duration, and because I want something with more kick in it. I will be buying some of the supplies though, I already own an umbrella from them and love it. For me there are some better options out there.


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## gsgary

I think it is because they are very cheap, can't be bought here in the UK but if they were on sale they would be in the budget range and not pro quality


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## kkamin

shmne said:


> The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second.



I saw that on their specs for their monolights.  It says something like 400 effective w/s and 250 true w/s.  How does that work?


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## shmne

It works by being truly 250 w/s. Its like how Zack Arias put it "Its like saying a car feels like 600 horsepower but really has 400 horsepower" or something to that effect.

I'm not sure why they say what they say, I've handled them before and don't see what they mean by 400 w/s effective :| 

The Einstein which is hopefully coming out soon, will replace most of the problems of the older versions. It will have an extremely fast flash duration, and a much higher "true" w/s.


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## Phranquey

kkamin said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that on their specs for their monolights. It says something like 400 effective w/s and 250 true w/s. How does that work?
Click to expand...

 
I think the "effective" might be linked to the longer duration.  The burst is 250ws, but since they are on longer, they put out an exposure's worth of 400ws.  Essentially... marketing gimic.

I had AB's for a little while, and they do work, but there is a difinite color shift from full power to low power.  It's not huge, but it's there.


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## TJ K

Are you just referring to the Alien Bee lights or to their products in general? 

I have a pair of the cyber Syncs and they are very good. They work reliably to several hundred feet. They are better made and much more reliable than those cheap ebay ones and plus they are made here in the USA. 

The plus side is they don't cost near as much as the pocket wizards. You can get an alien bee transmitter and receiver for the price of just 1 pocket wizard. Within a few hundred feet they are just as reliable as pocket wizards too. They don't have TTL abilities but when I take the flash off the camera and even sometimes on the camera I prefer to use it in manual anyways. I think that is why people tend to go for them. Good price amazing quality and top notch customer service makes alien bees my choice. 
TJ


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## shmne

Phranquey said:


> kkamin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that on their specs for their monolights. It says something like 400 effective w/s and 250 true w/s. How does that work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think the "effective" might be linked to the longer duration.  The burst is 250ws, but since they are on longer, they put out an exposure's worth of 400ws.  Essentially... marketing gimic.
> 
> I had AB's for a little while, and they do work, but there is a difinite color shift from full power to low power.  It's not huge, but it's there.
Click to expand...


Can't believe I forgot to mention the color shift! As little as it sounds, that gets annoying after a while. We found this out in class with a live demo of Alien Bees lights, bunch of us were playing with them (with the teacher's camera, so same camera) all coming out with slightly differing image color quality.


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## kkamin

Phranquey said:


> kkamin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that on their specs for their monolights. It says something like 400 effective w/s and 250 true w/s. How does that work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think the "effective" might be linked to the longer duration.  The burst is 250ws, but since they are on longer, they put out an exposure's worth of 400ws.  Essentially... marketing gimic.
> 
> I had AB's for a little while, and they do work, but there is a difinite color shift from full power to low power.  It's not huge, but it's there.
Click to expand...


But I think that's how all strobes work.  I think the maximum duration of flash creates the highest power.  I could be wrong.


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## Phranquey

TJ K said:


> Are you just referring to the Alien Bee lights or to their products in general?
> 
> I have a pair of the cyber Syncs and they are very good. They work reliably to several hundred feet. They are better made and much more reliable than those cheap ebay ones and plus they are made here in the USA.
> 
> The plus side is they don't cost near as much as the pocket wizards. You can get an alien bee transmitter and receiver for the price of just 1 pocket wizard. Within a few hundred feet they are just as reliable as pocket wizards too. They don't have TTL abilities but when I take the flash off the camera and even sometimes on the camera I prefer to use it in manual anyways. I think that is why people tend to go for them. Good price amazing quality and top notch customer service makes alien bees my choice.
> TJ


 
I have the cybersync's, and I love them... just didn't care for the strobes.


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## shmne

kkamin said:


> Phranquey said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I think that's how all strobes work.  I think the maximum duration of flash creates the highest power.  I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that is what they are saying, it is just a marketing ploy. Stating that the flash puts out 400 w/s, however only 250w/s of peak power.
Click to expand...


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## Derrel

kkamin said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> The least appealing part about them to many pros is the lack of power, or true watts per second.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw that on their specs for their monolights.  It says something like 400 effective w/s and 250 true w/s.  How does that work?
Click to expand...


Here is my take on it. I have owned professional level studio flash equipment since 1987,and am familiar with some of the history of the Paul C. Buff products.

The concept of sowing doubt and fear about "effective" watt-seconds and "true" watt-seconds has been widely ridiculed by older professionals who have been around studio lighting equipment for decades. The idea of effective vs true watt-seconds is a brilliant and purely marketing-driven idea invented by Paul C. Buff, years ago, to confuse customers and to spread fear, uncertainty,and doubt about--FIRST, about the other flash manufacturers of the 1980's, and then 15-20 years later, the so-called "Euro-flash" companies. It is pure and simple, a way to make customers feel better about the product: unlike other,older flash companies like Speedotron and Photogenic from the USA, and Braun, Elinchrom, and Bowens from outside the USA, Buff started naming his flash units "differently", with the White Lightning 10,000 back in the 1980's. No other flash manufacturer used such a high specification "number" to identify its monolights. Lumen-seconds is not the traditional way to rate studio flash units: THE STANDARD for decades prior to the 1980's had been watt-seconds or Guide Number. Beginning with the White Lightning "10,000", and continuing to today, the Alien Bee flash line uses a specification number that is far in excess of the number of stored watt-seconds.

The imaginary "other company" the true vs. effective watt-seconds nomenclature was "based upon"was never once identified by name and or model that I know of; the idea put forth in the Bufff company's marketing materials is that the "other" companies were/are being disingenuous or flat-out lying by stating the number of watt-seconds worth of energy stored in their flash units' capacitors. Lots of smoke was blown about lumen-seconds output of Buff units, primarily because it is one way to actually quantify light levels--and yet, NOBODY I KNOW in America or Europe, owns a lumens-seconds meter. Many of us have light meters, and the traditional method was to test flash units for Guide Number, stated in Feet in the USA, in metres in the rest of the world, at ASA of 100 (later ISO), in a "normal-sized" indoor room that did not have hugely high ceilings. Calumet Photographic, in its huge and comprehensive 1986 catalog, had ALL flash units tested the same way: the actual f/stop metered at 10 feet from the front face of a medium Chimera soft box. By doing that, they 1) fairly and 2) realistically equalized the measuring method t the then-current "standard" of a 36x48 inch softbox, of top quality. And you know what??? My recollection is that Speedotron, Norman, Photogenic, Broncolor, Calument, and Dyna-Lite  ALL had almost identical actual f/stop ratings among packs of the same price class and nominal specification. There was very,very little difference between the major flash makers, which lead me then to the conclusion that the "real" and the "effective" watt-second ratings of the major flash makers were all QUITE realisitc,and honest. I pored through the 1986 Calumet catalog for months before finally making my decision to go with Speedotron equipment.

In all honesty, the majority of flash has for decades been based on units like 50,100,200,400,800,1200,1600,and 2400 watt-seconds. The fact that the Buff company has taken a 320 watt-second monolight--but labels and sells it with the name of Alien Bee 800 while alleging that it has "800 watt-seconds of effective power" is quite a marketing ploy. I would dearly LOVE to read name and model number of the "other company" that makes this mythical 800 watt-second power supply and flash head OR monobloc flash that stores 800 watt-seconds of power and does not absolutely blow the Alien Bee 800 away. My feeling is that the "effective/actual" disparity is so,so ridiculously large that the only possible way a 320 watt-second light could approach the output of an 800 watt-second unit is if the 800 watt-secopnd were something like a 35 year old, bottom of the barrel Novatron. Seriously: let's look at a 320 horsepower engine and say it produces 800 "effective" horsepower. Instead of calling it a 320 HP engine, let's call specify it as an 800 horsepower engine. To put this marketing and naming system into perspective: I am exactly 6 "real" feet tall, but when I play basketball I am 15 "effective" feet tall. In high school I played football at a "real" 168 pounds, but my "effective" playing weight was 420 pounds.
The real/effective disparity is a factor of 2.5 x!!! I have an old Nikon worth a "real" $95, but I would like to get an "effective" dollar price 2.5 higher, or $237.50.

I hope this answers what Alien Bees means to "some" people in the photography world. Medium-priced lights sold under a specious "effective power" level that is 2.5 higher than most other companies. To people who have been around studio lighting for a long time, the company that makes the A-B units has a history that is, well, one of "inflated claims" leveled against a decades-long phantom "other" opponent. Many are happy with the AB flashes and their price and cute name and affordability, and the marketing materials are rich and thick and comforting.


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## c.cloudwalker

The way I look at Alien Bees is as a great step between the "strobist thing" and a real studio set up.

The "strobist thing" is a great learning tool but is severely limited in the long run. ABs are a good start working with real strobes although they do have problems. The color shift is a hell of a problem for serious studio work. But the ABs can be used for non-problematic areas in a studio going more serious such as, for example, lighting your backgrounds with gelled lights... so that they are not as useless an investment as a bag full of on-camera flashes as required by the strobist.

Some people will not like what coming next but that is their problem. When you want to be seen as a pro, you and your studio need to look like pros. The strobist way just doesn't fit that idea. ABs would a bit more if it wasn't for the weird colors. But I tend to believe that anyone getting more serious about photography after they get ABs will eventually get better strobes so it does not really matter.

I think ABs are great for a while or for a weekend shooter type of photographer. If you don't progress past that stage, fine, you'll keep being happy with them. But if you do go beyond that stage, you'll switch to better gear.

One of the problems with photo lighting is that very few amateurs really understand its importance. They'll spend a few Ks on a body and not give a second thought to their strobes... when they could have kept their one year old body and bought a couple Broncolors.

To each his/her own. Personally, I am going back into commercial work and because of being there before I know I will not or would not buy ABs for my studio.


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## Don Kondra

I own and use two B1600 units.

Does Paul Buff use creative advertising ?  Yup... 

Is he the only company that does this ?  Hardly...

I also own and use two 200 w/s Cowboy Studio lights.

Does that make me less than a professional ?

I've also been using a 9" contractors saw to produce award winning furniture for over 30 years.

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

Cheers, Don


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## c.cloudwalker

Would that explain different tones in the wood in your photos when you show a set?


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## Don Kondra

Which "set" are you referring to ?

If it is this one http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/commercial-product-photography/188723-grandfather-clock.html

All four images are the same wood tone on my calibrated Dell 2209wa monitor.  The backgrounds are not.  

What are you using for a monitor ? 

Cheers, Don


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## Montana

I use AB's, but if I did nothing but studio work, I wouldn't.  Portraiture is a very small, almost minute, portion of my photography so I work around their issues.  The color cast in my experience is only really visible if I have my lights set in a drastically different power setting from each other.  i.e., one near the lowest setting with one near the high end.


Oh, and the do come in black so color is a non-issue.  LOL  

But I do agree, hobbiests can get by on them and they are great for as a learning tool introduction into lighting..  But serious studio work demands 10k or more in lighting equipment.


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## IgsEMT

*READ FEW OTHERS & MY TAKE*:
ABs aren't the *best* but it isn't worse. Personally, I'll take dynalites even white-lights over ABs any day. White lights I think are better and a bit more expensive and dyna-pack is defiantly more pricier. So it depends on you and your need & your budget.


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## NateWagner

Alien Bees have one other thing going for them that nobody has mentioned (to my knowledge as I didn't read Derrel's extremely lengthy post) as of yet. That is, they have excellent customer service. If you call them up and say you have a problem with the item they will replace it and send it right back to you. 

Also, for the color shift, pretty much all (with the exception of High end lights such as Profoto etc.) have color shift. One thing to know about the color shift though is it is typically only noticable when you are in the lower ranges of power. When you are at quarter/half/full light you're typically fine. 

Also, in contrast to what was said earlier, I would suggest that Alien Bees has a great deal of power for their price. The AB800 at 400ws is more inexpensive than most other similar quality lights. 

They also have very high power lights going up to AB1600 (800 ws) and I believe there is an AB3200 (if not there is definitely a WL 3200) which is made by Paul Buff at 1600 WS (3200 effective whatever that is supposed to mean).

The higher end ones, such as the 1600 can also be used on half power such that it acts like an 800 (thereby also having the color shift at a much lower power level, and more of a usable range).

The color shift can be a problem, but, typically if you know when it happens and why it happens you can work around it.

I would be quite surprised if when you saw the color shift if your instructor was shooting at a normal shutter speed with the power at a reasonable level.


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## NateWagner

well, and of course you would take white lighting over ab's anyday. They are the higher end version of the same thing. Made by the same guy. That's like saying I would take a lexus over a toyota.


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## shmne

I think this thread brought up a lot of really great opinions. 
Looking at what has been said, a quick breakdown would be as follows: 

1. ABs are great lights for the intended market, AKA enthusiast - advanced novice
2. They are not seen as pro quality mostly because they are a bit silly in make. Also, the color cast is a problem to many pro level photographers (this is something that I have seen many times, through testing).
3. The effective / true rating system is misleading, however the true w/s is accurate.
4. They have top notch customer service.
5. They are made to have easily attached filters and light modifiers (this is another point showing that it really is made for a more entry level demographic)
6. They just don't have the raw power needed.

There was a point made that a poor craftsman blames his tools, however I do believe most would agree this is one situation where the tool is limited in many areas to be considered a full "pro" quality light set. Also, I'd like to point out I am not picking on the person who said this, because this is something even I considered. 

The biggest problem is that they will never overpower the sun, you can't throw them long distances, they have a very long flash duration, and while all flashes have a poor color cast at low powers Alien Bees is known to have the largest fluctuation (not a literal "The largest" but more along the lines of a reputable brand that everyone knows). When it gets down to it, a pro quality light needs to be there for the photographer, and these lights can only be there for you for so long before they simply can not do what you want them to do. 

They are the best for people really getting into the swing of lighting and craving something more powerful than a flash that sits on your camera. It was already stated that these are the best to get your feet wet with, but expect to be upgrading if you wish to continue improving advanced lighting techniques. If you don't want to go any farther than extreme enthusiast these will probably be the only lights you ever want or need, and if that is the case you're better off than the rest of us who are selling blood just so we can buy the raw power we crave! 

I hope this all has answered your question OP, and I really hope this clears up a lot about Alien Bees strobes in general. Also thank you for asking! Threads like this help me learn more and solidify what I already know


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## Derrel

There's a pretty good article on buying Alien Bees as your first set of "big lights" until you know what you really want, written by the Strobist blogspot's owner and founder David Hobby. The article is here: Strobist: Choosing Big Lights: AlienBees

Taking the actual amount of stored electrical charge and multiplying it by 2.5 times and calling that the "effective" watt-seconds is disingenuous,at best. What kind of company sells a farmer a 55 gallon drum of farm diesel and tells him that the drum contains 137.5 gallons of fuel?

Why would a company build a 10,000 gallon backyard pool, take the customer's money,and tell the customer he just payed for a 25,000 gallon pool? Watt-seconds refers to the QUANTITY, the volume, of stored energy.  Looked at another way: how can an offshore-made but USA-assembled monolight manage to be 2.5 times MORE-efficient than the acknowledged professional lights made in Europe or the USA? Who is kidding who here?

I would really love to hear how a low-priced product can possibly be two and one half times BETTER at turning electricity into light output than a high-quality professional light unit.  By what means does PCB manage to better other flash makers from all around the world, by a 2.5x factor? Has Buff, a 73 year old entrepreneur, managed to find a secret that hundreds of electrical engineers have overlooked, for literally decades? 

Like the article above mentions, the Strobist founder likes his A-B's, but he admits that he really "wants" Profoto gear, and is willing to shell out $8,000 for it and is considering Profoto's promotional incentives. One thing also noted in that article is the comment that Alien Bee owners are often very hostile to others who look at or buy other flash systems, for whatever reasons. People who own A-B's often accuse others of "bashing" their 'Bees. And yet, A-B owners almost always have owned only that brand,and have never tried any other brand of studio flash equipment. Many A-B kit owners can tell you how great their A-B stuff is, but there is seldom any comparison of it with other gear.


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## fokker

I'm generally uninformed about strobes and studio lighting, but I am an electrical engineer so thought I would chime in with some info here. 

Watt-seconds as we know is a measure of the amount of energy that powers the flash bulb, and is dependant on the power delivered to the bulb (watts) and the length of time the pulse lasts for (seconds). I am unclear as to whether this is used to describe the electrical energy input to the flash bulb, or the light energy output from the bulb, though I suspect it to be the former. Lights in general are horrendously inefficent, and there is also a good deal of difference in the efficiency of different kinds of lighting (compare incandescant light bulbs with LED lights for example on a watts-in for lumens-out basis). My point is, it is possible that if these alienbees have a more efficient type of flashbulb then simply stating the electical energy input will miselad  customers into thinking they are less powerful than they actually are in terms of light output.


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## Montana

3 other great products from Alienbees that should not be overlooked:

Cybersyncs
CyberCommander
Vagabond II


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## inTempus

shmne said:


> I won't be getting Alien Bees mainly because of their flash duration, and because I want something with more kick in it. I will be buying some of the supplies though, I already own an umbrella from them and love it. For me there are some better options out there.


I think you need to take a look at their new product line, the Einstein's.


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## inTempus

shmne said:


> Can't believe I forgot to mention the color shift! As little as it sounds, that gets annoying after a while. We found this out in class with a live demo of Alien Bees lights, bunch of us were playing with them (with the teacher's camera, so same camera) all coming out with slightly differing image color quality.


Again, you need to take a look at their new products.


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## kkamin

Many have said that they cannot overpower the sun.  Does that mean they have a really slow duration like 1/500th a second or less?  Because it seems like a 320 w/s light should be able to over power the sun.  Confundito. :shock:


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## inTempus

They are affordable, work very well, are reliable and they give you access to great light modifiers without breaking the bank.  They also have some very cool tools at prices you can't find elsewhere, take a look at their CyberCommander as an example.  An amazingly useful wireless control system for $179.  

There are snobs in every field be it cars, computers, photography, etc.  If it's not a big brand name, it's garbage.  Are Bee's flawless?  No.  But tests I've seen have shown that the Bee's are about 96% consistent in their power output whereas units costing 4x's or more are 98% consistent.  If that 2% is worth $800 or more to you, buy the more expensive units.  For pros this might be an issue.  For the average photographer, such as myself, it's not an issue at all.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO5vp4oOnWY[/ame]

I've used 2 B800's and a single B400 for over a year now and have shot plenty of modeling gigs, even for a local clothing line.  And guess what?  No issues with light consistency or color shift.  Check out my port, everything in there was shot using Bee's.  If you can find fault with the quality of light in any of my images, please point it out.

Bee's are very popular, I see them everywhere.  Some have claimed in the past that Bee's are so poorly made that they couldn't stand up to being rented.  I think this proves that notion as being inaccurate.  I've dropped by Bee's on concrete while on location and nothing happened.  I don't even carry them in protective bags, I just toss them in the back of the Jeep and go.  I've used them everywhere from abandon buildings to the beach and they've not failed me once.  

I'm on the waiting list for the new Einsteins.  These new units promise to be some of the most advanced lights for under $500 a pop on the market with full integration with the CyberCommander system.  I look forward to testing them out.

Also, the warranty is top notch.  If you're hesitant about buying Bee's know that PCB stands behind his equipment 100% with the best no BS warranty I've ever seen.  There's a reason Bee's are so insanely popular, it's because they are a great value and they perform quite well.

It boils down to this:

If you have the money and can afford something like Profoto, get them.  I would say most hobbyists don't have that kind of money laying around to invest $8k into lighting equipment when they have a $500 body and perhaps $800 in lenses.  If you're interested in jumping into the realm of studio photography, don't feel compelled to buy the most expensive lights there are.  Bee's offer hobbyist and yes, professionals (lots of them in use by people earning a living with cameras), quality light for a fraction of the cost.  They will work for you, period.  You won't get them and think "oh man, these suck!".  You'll get them and think "I'm glad I bought these".

Now, if you have the disposable income and or you have the need for the best lighting equipment money can buy, by all means I wouldn't try to dissuade you from buying from one of the top European brands.  You certainly aren't going to regret buying their stuff from a quality standpoint.  It's VERY nice stuff.

I could buy Profoto if I wanted to.  I've chosen to go with Bee's.  Initially it was because I wasn't sure how much I would use the studio lights.  I stick with Bee's now because they give me everything I want.  If they didn't serve me well, I would toss them and go with Profoto in a heartbeat.  Right now I'm planning to upgrade my flashes to the new Einsteins.  I could easily take that $2k and put it towards a new Profoto setup, but I honestly have no desire to given my experiences with the Bee's.  I really like them.


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## inTempus

kkamin said:


> Many have said that they cannot overpower the sun.  Does that mean they have a really slow duration like 1/500th a second or less?  Because it seems like a 240 w/s light should be able to over power the sun.  Confundito. :shock:


  I can, and have, over powered the sun with my B800's even while using a beauty dish.  You're not going to over power the sun from 20 yards away, but then I personally don't have a need to.    But then I've not tried their 11" "long throw" reflector either:  http://www.alienbees.com/11ltr.html


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## NateWagner

One thing to consider as well about "over-powering the sun" is that it highly depends on the time of day you are shooting. For example, if you want to get one of those shots where the flash is lighting the subject and the background is underexposed to get an incredibly blue shot, it is much easier to do that when shooting in the morning or shortly before sunset. There is less to over power. Theoretically most strobes will over power the sun when used properly and from a short distance at the proper time of day. 

Overpowering the sun during midday however typically requires a lot of light, and either hss/fp or stopping down the lens a ton. This is where a less powerful light might not quite be up to snuff. but, again, if you understand lighting and distances etc. then you should be fine (typically even with just the one light)


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## shmne

inTempus said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't be getting Alien Bees mainly because of their flash duration, and because I want something with more kick in it. I will be buying some of the supplies though, I already own an umbrella from them and love it. For me there are some better options out there.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to take a look at their new product line, the Einstein's.
Click to expand...


I saw the internet release of the Einstein and trust me I'm excited, though you must remember that is not a part of the Alien Bees family. More of an Uncle, different line same producer.


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## inTempus

shmne said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't be getting Alien Bees mainly because of their flash duration, and because I want something with more kick in it. I will be buying some of the supplies though, I already own an umbrella from them and love it. For me there are some better options out there.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to take a look at their new product line, the Einstein's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw the internet release of the Einstein and trust me I'm excited, though you must remember that is not a part of the Alien Bees family. More of an Uncle, different line same producer.
Click to expand...

They are the next evolution of the original Bee's.  They were originally called "ABMax" (Alien Bee Max) but when the digital power supply that was promised failed to materialize, they called it "Einstein".  PCB had been talking about an improved Bee light for some time and tossed around a couple of different names.

So, yes it is a Bee.  It's just the next evolution of the system.


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## shmne

kkamin said:


> Many have said that they cannot overpower the sun.  Does that mean they have a really slow duration like 1/500th a second or less?  Because it seems like a 320 w/s light should be able to over power the sun.  Confundito. :shock:



It really depends on which model AB you are talking about. The weakest of the bunch, B400 has a flash duration of 1/6000. Next up we have the B800 at 1/3300 and the big boy B1600 at 1/1800. 

Here is a nice little spread sheet set up by The Strobist Blog so you can really see the difference between a large amount of monolights, speedlights, and much more.
Strobist_FlashList

320w/s doesn't really cut it. It will take the sun down a lot, but it won't give you a solid night time shot. The B1600 will be able to control the sunlight without a problem, but than its flash duration is a bit annoying :| Honestly for most people, 320 will be enough since they won't be making day into the middle of night for their photos.


----------



## shmne

inTempus said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to take a look at their new product line, the Einstein's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the internet release of the Einstein and trust me I'm excited, though you must remember that is not a part of the Alien Bees family. More of an Uncle, different line same producer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are the next evolution of the original Bee's.  They were originally called "ABMax" (Alien Bee Max) but when the digital power supply that was promised failed to materialize, they called it "Einstein".  PCB had been talking about an improved Bee light for some time and tossed around a couple of different names.
> 
> So, yes it is a Bee.  It's just the next evolution of the system.
Click to expand...


Stop being a fanboy and arguing over pointless banter. Please its silly.
The topic is about the B400-B1600 products, even though it was not stated specifically it is obvious this is what the poster meant. They wanted to know more about the lights, not the new lights coming out, not the other products.

I like to believe I was being helpful in that I listed out everything about the lights, the good and the bad equally. I'm not taking a bias about the lights like you are, please try to understand that.

Paul C. Buff makes many great things, B400-1600 is great for what it is. Entry level strobes. I have many friends that own them, and I've been taught lighting with them. I see their flaws when put up against better quality lights.


----------



## NateWagner

I don't see how they are "obviously" not what the OP was talking about. I mean, the Einstein 640 is in the same relative price range as the Alien Bees are. It seems he was more asking about them and the company in general which would include the Einstein's.


----------



## inTempus

shmne said:


> Stop being a fanboy and arguing over pointless banter. Please its silly.
> The topic is about the B400-B1600 products, even though it was not stated specifically it is obvious this is what the poster meant. They wanted to know more about the lights, not the new lights coming out, not the other products.


You brought it up (the "pointless banter" topic), I didn't.  Now you're calling names?  Seriously, grow up a wee bit, please.



> I like to believe I was being helpful in that I listed out everything about the lights, the good and the bad equally. I'm not taking a bias about the lights like you are, please try to understand that.


I haven't said anything that's bias.  I've said nothing but my personal experience.  Please point out a single "fanboy" statement I've made.  Since I already know you can't, give the sophomoric name calling a break.



> Paul C. Buff makes many great things, B400-1600 is great for what it is. Entry level strobes. I have many friends that own them, and I've been taught lighting with them. I see their flaws when put up against better quality lights.


I've said the same thing.  Unfortunately you don't play well with others and can't seem to bare the thought of someone having a different perspective.  So you resort to name calling, as if such behavior is helpful.


----------



## inTempus

NateWagner said:


> I don't see how they are "obviously" not what the OP was talking about. I mean, the Einstein 640 is in the same relative price range as the Alien Bees are. It seems he was more asking about them and the company in general which would include the Einstein's.


Please stop being a fanboy Nate.  We'll have none of your common sense in this thread.


----------



## Big Mike

> What does 'Alien Bees' gear mean to the photography world?


Apparently it means that there is a line drawn in the sand and everyone must choose a side and dig their heels in.  :roll:

Keep it friendly people :layball:


----------



## kkamin

I know strobes can be very expensive.  But I was sort of surprised at the price of A-B as an entry level strobe.  I would imagine they are better than the cheap Chinese strobe kits on Ebay (bought some myself before), but for the amount of w/s you get for the price, I feel like you are paying partially for the brand name. 

What does anyone think of the strobe listed below.
I have two of these strobes.  They are 400 w/s and I paid $167 a piece for them.  The brand is Mettle and they conveniently use a Bowen's mount.  

Mettle 400W 400 Monolight Strobe Flash Bowens Compatble - eBay (item 200418832446 end time Feb-14-10 11:33:14 PST)

I like them.  I've used them a fair amount and they feel very robust and consistent.  The only thing I don't care for is the plastic mount that doesn't tighten very well when I attach heavy 5' softboxes to the light.

Thanks everyone, I'm learning a lot.


----------



## c.cloudwalker

Another thread going to hell?  Over nothing?

Sure seems like it. Shake hands, make friends, hug, whatever, just don't let it go any further. :er:


----------



## shmne

inTempus said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop being a fanboy and arguing over pointless banter. Please its silly.
> The topic is about the B400-B1600 products, even though it was not stated specifically it is obvious this is what the poster meant. They wanted to know more about the lights, not the new lights coming out, not the other products.
> 
> 
> 
> You brought it up (the "pointless banter" topic), I didn't.  Now you're calling names?  Seriously, grow up a wee bit, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to believe I was being helpful in that I listed out everything about the lights, the good and the bad equally. I'm not taking a bias about the lights like you are, please try to understand that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I haven't said anything that's bias.  I've said nothing but my personal experience.  Please point out a single "fanboy" statement I've made.  Since I already know you can't, give the sophomoric name calling a break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul C. Buff makes many great things, B400-1600 is great for what it is. Entry level strobes. I have many friends that own them, and I've been taught lighting with them. I see their flaws when put up against better quality lights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've said the same thing.  Unfortunately you don't play well with others and can't seem to bare the thought of someone having a different perspective.  So you resort to name calling, as if such behavior is helpful.
Click to expand...


I apologize I misread your original post, for some reason I thought you had said something else which just kinda sat under my skin. May have slightly overreacted eacemrgreen:


----------



## Derrel

Since a certain member here referred to an Annie Liebovitz video in support of her shooting a Canon d-slr some moths ago, I thought it might be a nice counterpoint to show a link to a video of Annie shooting a Nikon D3 and using a modern Profoto pack-and-head system flash,along with the excellent enclosed umbrella she uses so often these days, the Photek Softlighter, which has both umbrella-like setup and break down speed, as well as softbox-like light, but with rounded catchlights that do not obscure huge amounts of the eyeball with a massive,square or rectangular catchlight on close-in people photos.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIXfVBF9uV8[/ame]


----------



## inTempus

shmne said:


> inTempus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop being a fanboy and arguing over pointless banter. Please its silly.
> The topic is about the B400-B1600 products, even though it was not stated specifically it is obvious this is what the poster meant. They wanted to know more about the lights, not the new lights coming out, not the other products.
> 
> 
> 
> You brought it up (the "pointless banter" topic), I didn't.  Now you're calling names?  Seriously, grow up a wee bit, please.
> 
> I haven't said anything that's bias.  I've said nothing but my personal experience.  Please point out a single "fanboy" statement I've made.  Since I already know you can't, give the sophomoric name calling a break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul C. Buff makes many great things, B400-1600 is great for what it is. Entry level strobes. I have many friends that own them, and I've been taught lighting with them. I see their flaws when put up against better quality lights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've said the same thing.  Unfortunately you don't play well with others and can't seem to bare the thought of someone having a different perspective.  So you resort to name calling, as if such behavior is helpful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I apologize I misread your original post, for some reason I thought you had said something else which just kinda sat under my skin. May have slightly overreacted eacemrgreen:
Click to expand...

No problem, it happens.    Thanks for the post.


----------



## inTempus

Derrel said:


> Since a certain member here referred to an Annie Liebovitz video in support of her shooting a Canon d-slr some moths ago, I thought it might be a nice counterpoint to show a link to a video of Annie shooting a Nikon D3 and using a modern Profoto pack-and-head system flash,along with the excellent enclosed umbrella she uses so often these days, the Photek Softlighter, which has both umbrella-like setup and break down speed, as well as softbox-like light, but with rounded catchlights that do not obscure huge amounts of the eyeball with a massive,square or rectangular catchlight on close-in people photos.


Holly freaking run-on sentence Batman!


----------



## gsgary

inTempus said:


> shmne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop being a fanboy and arguing over pointless banter. Please its silly.
> The topic is about the B400-B1600 products, even though it was not stated specifically it is obvious this is what the poster meant. They wanted to know more about the lights, not the new lights coming out, not the other products.
> 
> 
> 
> You brought it up (the "pointless banter" topic), I didn't.  Now you're calling names?  Seriously, grow up a wee bit, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to believe I was being helpful in that I listed out everything about the lights, the good and the bad equally. I'm not taking a bias about the lights like you are, please try to understand that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I haven't said anything that's bias.  I've said nothing but my personal experience.  Please point out a single "fanboy" statement I've made.  Since I already know you can't, give the sophomoric name calling a break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul C. Buff makes many great things, B400-1600 is great for what it is. Entry level strobes. I have many friends that own them, and I've been taught lighting with them. I see their flaws when put up against better quality lights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've said the same thing.  Unfortunately you don't play well with others and can't seem to bare the thought of someone having a different perspective.  So you resort to name calling, as if such behavior is helpful.
Click to expand...



Do you have these lights ? i would have thought you would have Profoto lights Profoto - The Light Shaping Company


----------



## inTempus

Derrel said:


> but with rounded catchlights that do not obscure huge amounts of the eyeball with a massive,square or rectangular catchlight on close-in people photos.


I don't suppose you've seen any of the work by Martin Schoeller.  I don't think too many people would dismiss his work yet he often does just that - obscures large amounts of the eye with square catch lights.  That's where I got the idea and I purposely used it in several studio sessions.

I know this comment was a cheap shot at me (even after Mike asked us to play nicely together), but honestly it doesn't bother me.  Just know that your pettiness made me chuckle, and that's all you accomplished.


----------



## Derrel

inTempus said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since a certain member here referred to an Annie Liebovitz video in support of her shooting a Canon d-slr some moths ago, I thought it might be a nice counterpoint to show a link to a video of Annie shooting a Nikon D3 and using a modern Profoto pack-and-head system flash,along with the excellent enclosed umbrella she uses so often these days, the Photek Softlighter, which has both umbrella-like setup and break down speed, as well as softbox-like light, but with rounded catchlights that do not obscure huge amounts of the eyeball with a massive,square or rectangular catchlight on close-in people photos.
> 
> 
> 
> Holly freaking run-on sentence Batman!
Click to expand...


Those with college-level reading skills can probably use the commas as breath spots. Sorry to have challenged you Timmy. Yes, Martin's work has a nice gimmick to it. The square-eyed look. He's made it his trademark gimmick. He has yet to achieve much success on a widespread basis; I notice Liebovitz got hired to shoot the Presidential family portraits at the White House not too long ago--where she shot them with a Canon camera, by the way. What, exactly, has Martin been doing these days besides the same old, formulaic, every-shot-just-like-the-next mugshots? I'm just sayin'...your link shows the same tired,shopwork gimmick, shot after shot after shot. A veritable one-trick pony is the example you're giving?

Sorry to spoil your homecoming Tim....but I see the religious fervor here in the Alien Bee defense attitude you've got. What I do not understand is why so many people will spend thousands and thousands of dollars on red-letter "L-glass" and then use a hobbyist brand of strobes and try and tell people who own higher-end systems how bad the higher-end systems are. It's like talking up the 18-55 and 55-200 kit zooms as being "durable" and "great",and then dismissing all those L-glass lenses that seem to creep into profile signature files. The original question was about how the Alien Bees line of lights are perceived and what they mean; they are about the same as the 18-55 and 55-200 lenses. I think c. cloudwalker's simple post summed it up pretty well and he included the phrase that "most people do not want to hear this but..." preface to help.

I do not understand the lauding of L-glass,over and overf and over, and then the denigration of the higher-end flash systems that have been on the market decades LONGER than Alien Bees. But, that is partly because you've been involved seriously in photography for a little over a year or so, and I have been involved with it for over 25 years; my point of view is from a lot longer perspective,and I've provided a little bit of long-term commentary as to how Buff got his start, and how he has done his marketing. In a word, the Paul C. Buff marketing has had a solid impact on the buyers--most of whom are convinced that their gear is unsurpassed,and that anybody who points out its areas of deficiencies is somehow a traitor or a brand-basher. Let's put it this way: Buff's marketing has to be good, because the equipment is sold directly--there are no stores across America or across the world that carry Buff equipment as dealers. The marketing materials therefore must be very convincing, so that buyers will purchase the stuff sight-unseen. That keeps the buyers OUT of places like Calumet or Samy's or B&H or Glazer's or ProPhoto Supply, where they might actually lay hands on other brands of lighting and grip equipment.

I think I've sufficiently made my points about how the photography industry views Alien Bees lighting gear; it has many satisfied customers. But the system is not competing with the older brands, or for the same dollars, and it is sold factory-direct; it does not share space on the sales floors in direct competition with other products in the lighting area. If a guy is happy with Alien Bees strobes, fine. I've shot with Sunpak 4000 monolights, Speedotron Brown Line, Speedotron Black Line, Norman, JTL, Dyna-Lite, and Photogenic,  since 1987, so my experiences favor systems with very different heritage,and very different marketing and sales strategies besides direct-to-end-user sales. Alien Bees have their own "niche", and no matter how glib the arguments on web boards, the A-B lights cannot be elevated out of their niche. To do that, they would have to be sold in pro photography supply houses, head-to-head on the sales floor against much deeper,broader systems. The A-B is the economy system of Paul C. Buff--White Lightnings and now the Einstein are their higher-end systems. So Paul himself understands the value of different levels and different "quality" levels.


----------



## burnws6

This has been an awesome read. I have to side with Intempus.


----------



## inTempus

Derrel said:


> Those with college-level reading skills can probably use the commas as breath spots. Sorry to have challenged you Timmy.


Your taunts and childish jabs are tiresome.  What, no comments about my signature line, website, or previous user name?  Oh, you did use "Timmy".  I'll give you credit there.



> I yes, martin's work has a nice gimmick to it. The square-eyed look. He's made it a trademark gimmick. He has yet to achieve much success on a widespread basis; I notice Liebovitz got hired to shoot the Presidential family portraits at the WHite House not too long ago--where she shot them with a Canon EOS 5D, by the way. What, exactly, hs Martin been doing these days besides the same old, furmulaic, every-shot-just-like-the-next mugshots? I'm just sayin'...


You know of Martin?  Really?  Since you live with your nose firmly planted in Thom Hogans posterior I didn't think you had time to actually appreciate the art or the artists that actually use cameras.

What has Martin done lately, besides shooting every major star in Hollywood?  Oh, not much I suppose.  But that's not the point.  I see no need to belittle Martin's work as it's not at issue here.  I simply stated that my images were inspired by his work since you saw fit to insult my work.

As for Annie using Canon and Nikon, we already knew that.  It was discussed in the thread from a few months ago you referenced in your initial attack post.


----------



## Montana

Wow...............................................


----------



## inTempus

Holly massive edit Batman!  



Derrel said:


> Sorry to spoil your homecoming Tim....but I see the religious fervor here in the Alien Bee defense attitude you've got.


You see nothing but what you want to see, and that's conflict.



> I do not understand the lauding of L-glass,over and overf and over, and then the denigration of the higher-end flash systems that have been on the market decades LONGER than Alien Bees.


I have never denigrated pro lighting gear, not once.  Again, you're manufacturing strawman arguments to incite conflict. 



> But, that is partly because you've been involved seriously in photography for a little over a year or so, and I have been involved with it for over 25 years;


...and what exactly have you accomplished in 25 years?  By your own admission in 25 years you have maybe 25 photos you're proud of and would use in a portfolio.

Since you've critiqued my work and that of Martin Schoeller, shall I critique yours?  From what I see many of your shots are amateurish and boring, I would expect more from a 25 year veteran that takes such pride in deriding my work.  



> my point of view is from a lot longer perspective,and I've provided a little bit of long-term commentary as to how Buff got his start, and how he has done his marketing. In a word, the Paul C. Buff marketing has had a solid impact on the buyers--most of whom are convinced that their gear is unsurpassed,and that anybody who points out its areas of deficiencies is somehow a traitor or a brand-basher.


I don't think the lights are "unsurpassed", I certainly have never said or even implied this... not to mention I've said otherwise.  What I have said is that for the hobbyist and for some pros they are a great option - and they are.



> I think I've sufficiently made my points about how the photography industry views Alien Bees lighting gear; it has many satisfied customers.


Yes, it does.  And not all of them are inexperienced noobs either.



> But the system is not competing with the older brands, or for the same dollars, and it is sold factory-direct; it does not share space on the sales floors in direct competition with other products in the lighting area. If a guy is happy with Alien Bees strobes, fine. I've shot with Sunpak 4000 monolights, Speedotron Brown Line, Speedotron Black Line, Norman, JTL, Dyna-Lite, and Photogenic,  since 1987, so my experiences favor systems with very different heritage,and very different marketing and sales strategies besides direct-to-end-user sales. Alien Bees have their own "niche", and no matter how glib the arguments on web boards, the A-B lights cannot be elevated out of their niche. To do that, they would have to be sold in pro photography supply houses, head-to-head on the sales floor against much deeper,broader systems. The A-B is the economy system of Paul C. Buff--White Lightnings and now the Einstein are their higher-end systems. So Paul himself understands the value of different levels and different "quality" levels.


And that we can agree upon.


----------



## Derrel

inTempus said:


> You know of Martin?  Really?  Since you live with your nose firmly planted in Thom Hogans posterior I didn't think you had time to actually appreciate the art or the artists that actually use cameras.
> 
> What has Martin done lately, besides shooting every major star in Hollywood?  Oh, not much I suppose.  But that's not the point.  I see no need to belittle Martin's work as it's not at issue here.  I simply stated that my images were inspired by his work since you saw fit to insult my work.
> 
> As for Annie using Canon and Nikon, we already knew that.  It was discussed in the thread from a few months ago you referenced in your initial attack post.



Wow....you have some amazingly thin skin. And some amazingly insulting  and vulgar homoerotic insulting rhetoric. What "attack post" are you talking about? "Nose up somebody's butt?" Really? Your use of homoerotic attacks are juvenile, but I am familiar with how heatedly and personally you can take equipment-related disagreements.

When did I "insult your work" Tim? I honestly do not think I have referenced ANY of your work. I have had you on my ignore list for a couple of months now, until today. And after your latest outburst in this thread, I'm afraid I have to promote you BACK onto my ignore list. Your inability to engage in adult debates with somebody vastly your senior in age and experience is telling. The fact that you are a two-year shooter and I started taking photos in 1973 makes my point of view a bit broader and longer-term than yours, Tim. But I do not believe I have denigrated your work in any way,shape or form.

I'll give you the last word, then re-set you for Ignore. Okay?


----------



## inTempus

Derrel said:


> I'll give you the last word, then re-set you for Ignore. Okay?


Post #42 was 100% directed at me, from top to bottom, and you know it.  

You know this is true because before you did your typical back peddle you went on to degrade Martins work once I explained my inspiration.  Oops.

But play your games Derrel.  It's probably best I'm on your ignore list because you can't seem to resist making endless little jabs.  If you know I have thin skin (and with good reason in dealing with you), why do you take me off your ignore list then take a cheap shot like post #42?  Why can't you just play nice?

I've tried extending you an olive branch.  I've apologized to you in PM and even offered to give you my phone number to talk voice and resolve our past differences.  You ignored me and instead choose to continue the silly behavior.

So yes, put me back on your ignore list if you can't be a man about this.


----------



## Joves

Now, now children lets play nice.


----------



## ThornleyGroves

what do people think about bowmen gemini 400's in regards to the way alien bees are?


----------



## SpeedTrap

I have waited a while to chime in on this one, I have own AB Lights and now I don&#8217;t.  They served the propose very well when I had them, they were light and portable and easy to use.  But I found that as time went on I was outgrowing them and it was time to move on.

1)     Customer Service &#8211; Yes it is great if you live in the USA, if you live anywhere else and have to get something repaired it is a PITA (I live in Canada) My current lights (LightRein/Rimelite) have a local distributor and repair so If I break one I can get a loaner same day and no cost to ship. As well I can walk in and try out new products without purchasing them first.

2)     Colour Cast &#8211; I shoot fashion in studio and there was way too much color cast and the quality of modifiers just was not good enough.  My local shop carries every modifier I could need and speed rings for my lights. I liked some of the modifiers AB had to offer, but in the end there was not enough.

3)     Power, I need more than AB can offer, currently my lights are 700 and 1200 w/s. I needed more power in the modeling lamps as well, and my current lights have 650 Watt modeling lamps in them.  The modeling lamps proved very useful when I had to shoot a child with epilepsy that could not handle strobes.

4)     Range, I could not work within the 4-stop range of the AB&#8217;s, my current lights have 7.1 stops of light and are full digital moonlights.  They have flash durations that are as fast or faster than the new Einstein&#8217;s in non-sports mode.

5)     Build quality, this is one of the biggest reason I got rid of my AB lights.  Everyone tells the story of how well they are made, but when it comes down to it my cast aluminum lights will take far more abuse than Lexan body lights.  I broke 2 AB lights, I have never broken one of my new ones and I have put them through way more abuse.

If you want something to upgrade or dabble in, they are great, but in my opinion if you are looking for a long term solution I would research all the products available and determine the true cost of ownership for your choices.  If they come out on top for you great, but do you research and make an informed decision about what will be best for you and give you the best future potential.


----------



## c.cloudwalker

SpeedTrap said:


> Customer Service  Yes it is great if you live in the USA, if you live anywhere else and have to get something repaired it is a PITA (I live in Canada) My current lights (LightRein/Rimelite) have a local distributor and repair so If I break one I can get a loaner same day and no cost to ship. As well I can walk in and try out new products without purchasing them first.



+1

That is one thing I have said in a few strobe choice threads. If you are a professional, pick one with a local retailer. A pro shoot is not going to wait a few days until you get the part that broke or the accessory you suddenly realize you need.

AB keeps its prices low by selling direct. Great but it can, and eventually will be, a great problem to a pro. Period.

AB now has a distributor to cover the Australia/New Zealand area. Nice but how long to get a part? It doesn't ship anywhere else anymore because they can't deal with it as per their website.

Sorry AB lovers but the only way you are going to buy their strobes is because you are not a pro. Or you haven't yet figured out what is involved in being a pro.


----------



## fiveoboy01

You two need to stop this tit-for-tat BS.  It gets old reading it.  Both of you know a good bit about photography, more than I do...  I'd rather learn something from the two of you instead of watching a back and forth bitchfest. 

That said, those einstein lights certainly look cool.  Wish I could afford some sort of a studio strobe setup.


----------



## inTempus

c.cloudwalker said:


> Sorry AB lovers but the only way you are going to buy their strobes is because you are not a pro. Or you haven't yet figured out what is involved in being a pro.


First, I've ran into plenty of pros that do use them quite successfully.  I'm sure they're not nearly as pro as you are of course.  

You might want to reserve judgment on them as a company until you have a chance to review the new Einsteins.  It will require you to be a wee bit objective and actually review them with an unbiased eye and judge them on merit alone.  They may rock, they may not.  But they deserve a shot.


----------



## inTempus

fiveoboy01 said:


> You two need to stop this tit-for-tat BS.  It gets old reading it.  Both of you know a good bit about photography, more than I do...  I'd rather learn something from the two of you instead of watching a back and forth bitchfest.


It ended a few days ago, but I guess it doesn't hurt to bring it up again.  Thanks for chiming in, but I'm on Derrels ignore list now (thank God).  So you can pluck your panties from your rear-end and take a deep breath.    If tensions do flair again, know that you don't have to read it.  You can simply 1) put us both on your ignore list or 2) scroll past.



> That said, those einstein lights certainly look cool.  Wish I could afford some sort of a studio strobe setup.


If you can scrape your pennies together for a camera, you should be able to scrape them together for some Bee's.  Start off with a $250 B400 and get your feet wet.  Save a little more and buy another one.  Next thing ya know, you'll have a studio setup in no time.  

The Einsteins do look to be VERY promising.  I will be upgrading my Bee's to them as soon as they hit the street.  I look forward to playing with them and seeing just how much of an improvement they are over the originals.

The color cast problem is gone supposedly, consistency is already good but its supposed to be even better and it's got some great new controls.  They should be a lot of light for the money.


----------



## SpeedTrap

Funny thing about the entire buzz around the Einstein&#8217;s and AB Max, they are the single biggest reason why I no longer use Alien Bees.  

When I was at the point of needing more out of my lights than the standard Alien Bees could offer the AB Max was announced.

I thought that they would do fantastic, on the day they were available for pre-order I called in and ordered 5 of them.  Then the waiting started, I had a big shoot I wanted to use them on and I had given myself plenty of lead time for them to be delayed once and I would still have time to get to know them before the shoot.

They were delayed, but with the promise of more features, then they were delayed again. It was at this time that I could no longer take any chances and I found a new supplier that proved to be fantastic.  I kept watching the announcement where the lights were delayed again and then no longer being built.  

Next came the announcement of the Einstein&#8217;s and it started all over again.  They are already months behind the release date and now the info has stopped.  I would not at all be surprised to see another delay or more changes.  

For those that are going to keep hanging on for the next big thing from AB, keep your hope up, I am sure you will have them soon, but in the mean time I will continue to shoot and make money with the lights I have now.


----------



## NateWagner

reminds me of RadioPoppers personally.


----------



## epatsellis

inTempus said:


> fiveoboy01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You two need to stop this tit-for-tat BS.  It gets old reading it.  Both of you know a good bit about photography, more than I do...  I'd rather learn something from the two of you instead of watching a back and forth bitchfest.
> 
> 
> 
> It ended a few days ago, but I guess it doesn't hurt to bring it up again.  Thanks for chiming in, but I'm on Derrels ignore list now (thank God).  So you can pluck your panties from your rear-end and take a deep breath.    If tensions do flair again, know that you don't have to read it.  You can simply 1) put us both on your ignore list or 2) scroll past.
Click to expand...


Then I'm likely in good company...

fortunately I decided against replying to his "looking down at AB" comment with a retort that those of us using Broncolor think the same thing about Speedotron, much less using "little" cameras for serious work, but I'm guessing the chances of his seeing it would be about zero.


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## Mike_E

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofzCZiQ9vjA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofzCZiQ9vjA[/ame]


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## Don Kondra

I think it is unreasonable to expect them to also pay the shipping on a repair...

Cheers, Don


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## snowbear

.


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## flightless_beaker

Ah. Come back after a year hiatus (maybe more :/ ) and see this thread. I think I was reading this before I bought my AlienBees. BTW, I purchased them since this thread was made and I have no regrets. Going back to the original discussion, I can see why some pros may not like them. They do look a little cheesy and feel a bit cheap in a way. That's why I bought mine in Yellow  . I've used them a bit since I've gotten them and I really like them a lot. I'm a professional portrait photographer and they do the job I need them to do with the way that I shoot. At my job we use White Lightnings so the transition between the two is easy.

They were affordable too which is good since I'm trying to start my own business and every dollar counts. Will these be the lights I use for the rest of my career? Most likely no but they will be perfect just starting out. And if I do upgrade, they'll be great backups. I'm actually looking to get the AB400 for a hair light or maybe even 2 AB400s to use as background lights and hair lights and have a 4 light setup


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## Ihatemymoney

Don Kondra said:


> I own and use two B1600 units.
> 
> Does Paul Buff use creative advertising ? Yup...
> 
> Is he the only company that does this ? Hardly...
> 
> I also own and use two 200 w/s Cowboy Studio lights.
> 
> Does that make me less than a professional ?
> 
> I've also been using a 9" contractors saw to produce award winning furniture for over 30 years.
> 
> It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.
> 
> Cheers, Don



Paul C Buff

I don't know if it is possible to beat their customer service, I have 1 ab / 1600 and one white lighting 1600.
Just to photograph exotic woods


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## Derrel

Speedotron beats Buff's customer service. How? By making products that do not constantly break down or fall apart under light usage, or normal, everyday transport...Speedotron's customer service comes from people right here in the USA, in Chicago, Illinois, where the products are manufactured. Speedotron is one of the world's oldest continuous producers of professional lighting equipment..you *buy the stuff, and it...just works*. For years on end. The web is filled with stories about Buff sending out entire new units, to replace ones that failed on shoot one, or shoot two, or shoot three, or whatever. Some people love to talk about Buff's "customer service," I prefer to talk about the equipment's *service record* and *service life*, not how fast the company that sold me cheap stuff sent out new, replacement cheap stuff...

I have a Speedotron Brown Line pack, three heads, and three flashtubes from my very FIRST Speedotron Brown Line purchase, bought in 1987...two of the three flashtubes still work (one got into a bar fight with a concrete floor and was killed...), but the flash generator and all three lights STILL work as well as the day I bought them. The pack or heads have never been serviced. To me "that" is the kind of customer service I expect from my light-maker...not a need for fast air-freight shipping to replace cheap, offshore-made stuff that is sold "AS IF" it was actually made in the USA...

I feel it is deceptive to take offshore-made parts, have them mostly assembled offshore, import them mostly finished, and then do JUST ENOUGH assembly work in the USA to earn the "assembled in USA" qualifier. 

Why not pay less than HALF as much, and just buy Adorama's Flashpoint 320M and 620M monolights, which are made in China, by the Mettle Company? You know, buy Chinese-made lights at Chinese-made prices, and not try to fool anybody with wildly exaggerated model numbers that are more than DOUBLE the Watt-seconds the units actually deliver? Maybe that's part of the Buff Alien Bee customer service-- they give you a model number that's over TWICE what the light output is! lol


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