# Model Shoot Advice Needed



## sactown024 (Oct 31, 2012)

Good Evening Photographers,

I am back once again with another question which hopefully wont turn into a 5 page argument like the last thread. 

I was recently contacted by a amateur model looking to expand her portfolio a lot like what I am trying to do with photography. She is currently a promotional model for bars and things like that, very pretty girl. we went back and forth with emails about what clothing to wear, makeup, location etc.. We decided that she would bring multiple outfits and different types of makeup. Lucky me, I have a friend in town that owns a gym and is allowing me to use his aerobics room as a studio and the outside is very industrial looking so I will most likely shoot out there too. Since we are both trying to expand our portfolios there is no money involved and it is strictly to help each other. I have her watching videos on posing and how to use the photographers lighting since I openly told her I dont have any experience with models and how to pose them.

My question is since ill be renting some gear as I think this could be a good boost for my portfolio, what should I be renting? As for off camera lighting I have 2 options, use my single speedlite (YN 560II) and buy a stand, trigger and umbrella for about $100 or rent 2 canon 580 setups with stands, umbrellas, pocket wizards for $75 shipped for 1 week. Is 1 off camera enough for great photos or should I go with the 2 580's? whats a safe setup for lighting, first time using off camera ale:,will try to practice before shoot and I have been reading strobist.

No idea what lens i should rent, prime, zoom, wide?  the room is about 25' X 25' one wall being completely mirrors. I have a trippod but the head kind of sucks, i couldn't hold up the 70-200 without drifting down.

I use a Canon body and have a 50mm 1.8.

below is a photo of her


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## Samerr9 (Oct 31, 2012)

Are there any windows in the room?


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## sactown024 (Oct 31, 2012)

No windows : /


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## Samerr9 (Oct 31, 2012)

You can always do alot with anything you have! even you can turn on and off the lighting in the room.

But my recommendation will be to go with renting the two flashes. It will give your more options like hair/rim light. 

I wish you all the best. I was panicking when I was in charge of a photosession with a model for the first time. Be calm and put you knowledge in what you are doing and you wil do great


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## Robin_Usagani (Oct 31, 2012)

sactown024 said:


>



Which one is she?

Anyway, I do mostly only 1 off camera flash.  If you are still questioning whether 1 is good enough or not, trust me that you are not ready to shoot with 2.  Just do the photos outside man..  Shooting indoor especially with one wall with mirror is crazy hard.  It will be a lot easier if you had windows.  You can do A LOT with 1 flash.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Oct 31, 2012)

OCF for the win


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## shortpants (Oct 31, 2012)

Hello neighbor  Natural lighting and a reflector could be enough for a great photo, this really depends on your ability (and conditions of course.) I'm not the lighting guru or anything but absolute minimal I would have on hand is a reflector. What you really need is hard to say. If you've never worked with a two light setup and you don't have time to practice you might want to keep it a little more simple. Simple doesn't mean bad, and with less variables thrown in the mix you're more likely to get useable pictures. One flash off camera balanced with natural light outdoors can look great. As far as a lens, longer than 50mm is more flattering. Avoid anything wide. Oh and personally I would just use the speedlite you have and buy the stand and trigger. Seems silly to rent for a trade shoot, invest in your own equipment and then you have it for more practice later.


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## kundalini (Oct 31, 2012)

For equipment rental in the USA, Lensrentals.com FTW.


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## MLeeK (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you are over thinking this a little, and I also think you are jumping on the lighting wagon for a shoot when  you haven't learned how to manipulate the lighting. 


You have given us all of the OTHER information, now how about what you envision for this shoot? Tell me exactly the image(s) you want to create. If you are unsure, spend some time surfing flickr and get your ideas together. 

I might have told you this before... I can't remember... Back when I was shooting pool competitively my coach once told me something that I live by in every aspect of my life; "Plan your shot then shoot your plan." Ironically enough it doesn't even need to be re-worded to apply to photography. 
Plan exactly what you want to produce. Sketch it out if  you have to. Then LOOK at your vision and decide where  the light will need to be. Then figure out if you can do it naturally or if you will need light or lights.


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## sactown024 (Oct 31, 2012)

here are some shots I would like to get get, I am so new to this and so is she so we are both going to spend hours trying new things. I just dont want to be stuck with photos with horrible shadows from one flash, but it sounds like I may be able to avoid that.

http://www.marshu.com/articles/imag...ricas-next-top-model-season-3-yaya-spider.jpg

http://cdn-premiere.ladmedia.fr/var...evient-sur-June_image_article_paysage_new.jpg

http://www.italyhairfashion.com/Photos/Models/hr_models/2020beigeModel.jpg


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## table1349 (Oct 31, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> "Plan your shot then shoot your plan." Ironically enough it doesn't even need to be re-worded to apply to photography.
> Plan exactly what you want to produce. Sketch it out if  you have to. Then LOOK at your vision and decide where  the light will need to be. Then figure out if you can do it naturally or if you will need light or lights.



:thumbup: +1


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## MLeeK (Oct 31, 2012)

You are a man after my own heart. I love the dramatic stuff. 
The first one looks like probably 3 lights
The second one LARGE softbox with a strobe and probalby at least a fill. 
The third is probably one large softbox and one fill to our right. 

How do we say that? We just look at where lights are hitting. The first looks like one on first look, but if you look to the sides there are lights hitting her hair on either side toward the back too. 
The second could be 1 softbox over head to our right, but it hints that there is a bit of fill to our right too. Could be just one
The third looks like one at first look too, but the highlight on the hair to our right makes me think two. Key light positiones to the camera right and a fill to the camera left.
NONE of those address lighting the background and I am ok with that. 
Could I be way off? ABSOLUTELY! LOL!
What would I want to create those? If it is speedlites my key light I'd want about 4 heads on a LARGE soft box. My fill one maybe two speedlites on a small softbox. 
Strobes: I could do something close with 2 150WPS strobes, but I'd like one larger. One LARGE softbox and probably an eggcrate and one strip box (long and narrow) with an eggcrate. 

Are you planning on shooting indoors or out?


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## sactown024 (Oct 31, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> You are a man after my own heart. I love the dramatic stuff.
> The first one looks like probably 3 lights
> The second one LARGE softbox with a strobe and probalby at least a fill.
> The third is probably one large softbox and one fill to our right.
> ...



haha looks like I am not getting those with one speedlite, rats...so you need 4 speedlites in 1 soft box to get the face to light up?

I plan to do both, and yes I love the dramatic look, dark backgrounds, subject lit up.


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## MLeeK (Oct 31, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > You are a man after my own heart. I love the dramatic stuff.
> ...


No, not just the face, but the front body OR to use a huge softbox. You could probably get it with a single speedlite in a smaller soft box fairly easy if you are going for the head shot.


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## tirediron (Oct 31, 2012)

I agree with MLeek's assessment of the lighting... but, you can do LOTS with a single speedlight...

Single speedlight in a softbox





Single speedlight in a softbox & reflector





Single bounced speedlight (the shadows are from the stage lights which did NOT contribute to the exposure)





Granted those may not be as dramatic as you wanted, but they're very simple, easy and solid set-ups.


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## Dao (Nov 1, 2012)

I also want to add that in the 3rd photo, there must be a reflector at the subject waist level that bounce some lights back to the subject.  (Based on the light right below the nose and the reflection from the eyes)


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## JAC526 (Nov 1, 2012)

If you aren't experienced with OCF I would stick to one light.

Just google one light setups and it will give you enough ideas to mess around for hours.


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## MLeeK (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't know if you've been given these links: 
StudioLighting.net and of course Strobist


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## dmtx (Nov 1, 2012)

First, you did not mention what you are attempting to accomplish, eg. close shots of the model, action shots in the gym, etc. 

Are the walls reflective or do you own reflectors?  You can accomplish interesting results with an inexpensive floor lamp, a natural light bulb, and reflected light.  

For the $200 you plan to spend, you might consider purchasing 1 or 2 LED light sources, eg. The kind that mount on a tripod. They provide controlled light.


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## MLeeK (Nov 1, 2012)

dmtx said:


> First, you did not mention what you are attempting to accomplish, eg. close shots of the model, action shots in the gym, etc.
> 
> Are the walls reflective or do you own reflectors?  You can accomplish interesting results with an inexpensive floor lamp, a natural light bulb, and reflected light.
> 
> For the $200 you plan to spend, you might consider purchasing 1 or 2 LED light sources, eg. The kind that mount on a tripod. They provide controlled light.


But not enough to illuminate a live subject without cranking your ISO to the sky and/or using a long shutter speed. Continuous lighting you would need about 10 of those LED light sources that fall into budget.


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## sactown024 (Nov 1, 2012)

I have one of these, will this help? and how would I use it? reflect off ceiling?


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## MLeeK (Nov 1, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> I have one of these, will this help? and how would I use it? reflect off ceiling?


Have your wife stand in front of you. Light her up with the light. See what happens


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## sactown024 (Nov 1, 2012)

http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/1000/222808104.jpg


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## MLeeK (Nov 1, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/1000/222808104.jpg



Like I said... put your wife in front of you. Light her  up with  it. See what happens. 
It won't hurt her-unless you make her pose close in front of it. Those suckers get HOT AS HELL.


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## Mach0 (Nov 1, 2012)

Just an FYI you can get an sb24, a light stand ( not the best one nonetheless) and 40 some odd inch umbrella for about 80-100 bucks. That would get you a lot better results than that light a few posts ago. You would need a hot shoe pc adaptor and a PC cord to fire it or a set of wireless triggers.


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## Derrel (Nov 1, 2012)

Robin_Usagani said:


> sactown024 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


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## sactown024 (Nov 2, 2012)

Mach0 said:


> Just an FYI you can get an sb24, a light stand ( not the best one nonetheless) and 40 some odd inch umbrella for about 80-100 bucks. That would get you a lot better results than that light a few posts ago. You would need a hot shoe pc adaptor and a PC cord to fire it or a set of wireless triggers.



I plan to have at least one speedlite and umbrella setup, just wondering if I should use a second lightsource like the dewalt halogens


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> dmtx said:
> 
> 
> > First, you did not mention what you are attempting to accomplish, eg. close shots of the model, action shots in the gym, etc.
> ...



I watched Doug Gordon's Creative Live seminar in its entirety earlier in October...you are mis-stating the way LED lights can be used...and tremendously overexaggerating the need for massive amounts of LED lighting...there is more than on way to use light...flash when used at 1/128 or 1/64 or 1/32 power can be PLENTY, if it is used as fill light and not as main light...if you watched Doug's nighttime rooftop demostration, you got to see how well those small LED lights worked to produce dramatic light...so...the idea that 10 LED light sources are a prerequisite is a bit much of an exaggeration. Kirk Tuck has recently written an entire book dedicated to LED lights and their use...that might have to be the next book I buy...he has been using them professionally for lifestyle, commercial, and editorial work for a few years now.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

sactown024 said:


> Mach0 said:
> 
> 
> > Just an FYI you can get an sb24, a light stand ( not the best one nonetheless) and 40 some odd inch umbrella for about 80-100 bucks. That would get you a lot better results than that light a few posts ago. You would need a hot shoe pc adaptor and a PC cord to fire it or a set of wireless triggers.
> ...


I would recommend NOT using the flash and worklights together UNLESS you also buy a gel for your speedlight to match the light temperature to that of the worklights.  Different light sources produce different colour temperatures, and when not "corrected" by use of gels, can make WB a real challenge to get right.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

Derrel said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > dmtx said:
> ...


I bought a couple of small LED lightbanks (75 LED units IIRC) when they went on stupid-crazy sale at a local retailer.  They're useful, and surprisingly capable from an output point of view, but are a bugger to match, temp. wise with other light.


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## sactown024 (Nov 2, 2012)

For anyone that cares, here is some iPhone pics of the room and outside of building ill be using, the walls are crazy so that can be a really bad thing or a good thing, idk. Sorry there are so many. The outside is def a rugged looking place which is why I chose it, I like that style.


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## Samerr9 (Nov 2, 2012)

If you locate her in the "garage box" as in no.7.. you will get one of the most pleasing soft light. Also I like the tunnel like in no.4.. Good luck and ill be waiting for the results


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

Looks like a great space!  I like the quasi-industrial exterior.


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## sactown024 (Nov 2, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Looks like a great space!  I like the quasi-industrial exterior.



yeah I thought it was interesting, its actually a really cruddy gym to workout in and the town probably hates the outside.... great for me


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## Hurme (Nov 2, 2012)

If you aren't very experienced working with multiple lights it's probably good idea to keep lighting as simple as possible. Instead of wasting ton of your and her time while tuning up lights, you should concentrate on getting as many good shots as possible. It's a whole different ball game if you have a very specific photo in mind that requires multiple lighting, but usually one light will be just fine. Hair or rim light is not exactly needed for a good photo no matter what people say. It's icing on the cake if you know how to do it well, but that requires a lot of experience and practice.

If you want to play with light, I'd instead suggest shaping that one light in as many ways as you can. Make it soft, make it hard, put it far away from model in a dark room and shape it into a beam that lights a path through her. Use the mirror in the gym, play with the huge rubber wheel in one of those photos. You're using a 50mm, use the large aperture and don't shoot too close to her.

Focus on the interaction between you and her. Try to see how she is, give her advice on how to pose and if you can't come up with anything you need to read up on that. Once you have some safe photos to lean on you can go crazy with more artistic stuff and weird angles. That place looks like an excellent place to photograph in, interior and exterior. So you have red walls? Use it to your advantage. Make sure you know how she dresses up. Things like her clothing, haircut even earrings will have huge impact on the photo together with the surroundings.

Take someone with you if you feel comfortable with that. Have a person who can move your light around for you, it'll speed things up. Gives you better control how to position your light. Don't get hung up on lighting. You're there to photograph. Or if you're there just to practice make sure she knows it and is okay with it, that can be cool too. It can also make things more relaxed if neither of you is quite as worried about the result.


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## sactown024 (Nov 2, 2012)

Hurme said:


> If you aren't very experienced working with multiple lights it's probably good idea to keep lighting as simple as possible. Instead of wasting ton of your and her time while tuning up lights, you should concentrate on getting as many good shots as possible. It's a whole different ball game if you have a very specific photo in mind that requires multiple lighting, but usually one light will be just fine. Hair or rim light is not exactly needed for a good photo no matter what people say. It's icing on the cake if you know how to do it well, but that requires a lot of experience and practice.
> 
> If you want to play with light, I'd instead suggest shaping that one light in as many ways as you can. Make it soft, make it hard, put it far away from model in a dark room and shape it into a beam that lights a path through her. Use the mirror in the gym, play with the huge rubber wheel in one of those photos. You're using a 50mm, use the large aperture and don't shoot too close to her.
> 
> ...



I think this may be the best advice I have got on this forum, thanks man! (no offense Leek, yours is awesome too, and derrel... etc...)


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

Dude! The red wall and the yellow wall? And the mirror wall!!!! YESSSSSSS! Sweet! Those will ALL make some excellent backgrounds! The grungy exterior? THe doors with the porthole windows? All wayyyy cool! And it looks like the location will offer a bit of privacy as well.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Nathan, you are at the point where you have a million things going on around you and all of these ideas and tangents you can go off on. You see one thing and it sparks that "ah ha!" in your brain and that leads you to another idea. 
It's a great place to be.
And it's a horrible place to be. 
You are mixing up things and like in a chemistry lab if you mix them up and don't know how the things will interact you can get a BIG A$$ mess. We are back to that statement of 'you don't know what you don't know.'
Stick to the KISS theory. Keep It Simple Stupid. Don't go mixing  up things that you don't understand yet for a shoot. If you want to mix them up by all means do it, but do it with your wife as your subject or with an inanimate object where the outcome isn't going to matter. For the sessions you are shooting don't do it until you know how. 
I think we've discussed before that you have to learn the basics before you add flash. Flash changes the rules of the basics. You no longer worry about shutter speed and motion (to an extent), you now worry about balancing ambient light and flash... You still have to balance the aperture and focus, but you have to also balance it to the flash and controlling that via shutter. You can no longer shoot above 1/250 if you are using simple flash-but you can if  you're using rear/second curtain synch. It changes everything. So, you master the basics, then you concentrate on mastering flash and learning to balance the two. 
Take this in steps. You have gotten back to where you were at the very first on here. You wanted to do it all at once. You stopped and learned the basics and got much further. Don't let yourself slip back to that chaotic mess. 

So... for this shoot keep it simple. Don't mix things. Toss the work light idea right out the window. Use what you know and maybe try out ONE thing, but don't mix all kinds of things. If you have an idea practice on your wife or a toy or whatever.


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## sactown024 (Nov 2, 2012)

yes yes, I do plan to practice on my wife, thats why I am buying the single OCF now, weeks ahead of the shot. I actually found a friend that said she would be dedicated to being my practice subject since my wife is busy with the newborn!

thanks for the advice


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

Balancing ambient light and flash is not a big deal...in fact it's pretty SIMPLE, really. Flash can only be shot up to the normal synch speed of his camera...indoors, you can shoot flash-lighted pictures all day long at 1/160 second. Or 1/125 second. Or 1/60 second. In fact, the range of usable shutter speeds when shooting flash pictures is narrower than without flash...

When using a speedlight and an umbrella with a d-slr....balancing flash and daylight in portraiture and modeling work, indoors, or in the shade, or during the winter months, is almost automatic...in New Hampshire in November there will not be much bright sun...any f/stop you might wish to shoot at, from f/4 to f/11 with flash, is going to give a decent background rendering at any flash synch speed from 1/60 to 1/200 second...almost by default, the background rendering will be "workable" to "excellent". By default!

Shoot photo. Review photo. See if it works. If not, make a change. Review image. Make a change if needed. Once the right exposure has been found, within the NARROW RANGE of actual, real-world f/stop outputs and shutter speeds that a speedlight + umbrella actually CAN OUTPUT, then shoot the chit out of it...a speedlight is not like a 2,400 Watt-second studio pack with six flash head outlet options and 512 possible power combinations....a speedlight has a very narrow range of output power...and GASP!!!!! it actually meshes very well with "real-world cameras".

You will find that there are NOT that many variables when shooting flash-as-mainlight images in the late fall in a place like New Hampshire...and INSIDE of a building, or in the shaded side of one...the range of actual exposures is even smaller...this is NOT rocket science.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Balancing ambient light and flash is not a big deal...in fact it's pretty SIMPLE, really. Flash can only be shot up to the normal synch speed of his camera...indoors, you can shoot flash-lighted pictures all day long at 1/160 second. Or 1/125 second. Or 1/60 second. In fact, the range of usable shutter speeds when shooting flash pictures is narrower than without flash...
> 
> When using a speedlight and an umbrella with a d-slr....balancing flash and daylight in portraiture and modeling work, indoors, or in the shade, or during the winter months, is almost automatic...in New Hampshire in November there will not be much bright sun...any f/stop you might wish to shoot at, from f/4 to f/11 with flash, is going to give a decent background rendering at any flash synch speed from 1/60 to 1/200 second...almost by default, the background rendering will be "workable" to "excellent". By default!
> 
> ...



That's exactly my point, Derrel. flash isn't complicated, but if you start to combine it with those halogen lights and a few LED's and all of this other stuff it's going to become really complicated and frustrating. Learn how the simplicity of flash works and use it. He's at that point now and SHOULD. But he's got all of these different ideas and other things that he's thinking about putting in there and it's going to make a hot mess. Which is a mess he probably should make, but never on any type of client shoot.


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, hence the main thrust of my advice:  "Shoot photo. *Review photo*. See if it works. If not, make a change. Review image. Make a change if needed. *Once the right exposure has been found*, within the NARROW RANGE of actual, real-world f/stop outputs and shutter speeds that a speedlight + umbrella actually CAN OUTPUT, *then shoot the chit out of it*".


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 6, 2012)

I agree, go with the single OCF and work with it. I got a few lights last year and though I had to use everyone of them at first and had my images coming out flat and boring. I realised after a bit that I needed to take a step back and just put one foot in front of the other before trying to run. I stepped back to a single light and started shooting and my photos improved a lot over what I was shooting at the time. now that I"m comfortable with that I have started adding in the second light scource and just slowly building up over time as I learn.


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