# To people who shoot in full manual most of the time...



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

What type of photography do you shoot in manual? And why do you shoot in manual anyway? Does Exposure comp kind of like manual when you use a priority mode? Anyways my main question is, how fast do you do manual settings and snap the shot? Lots of people say they use manual most of the time, i find that hard to do when most of my shots are moving subjects (sports for example)...

Even moving the camera by a little can throw the exposure off by 1/3 of a stop. I find manual to be ineffecient for me unless I am using a tripod and dont have to worry about a moving subject (Such as landscape)...

I use Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority most of the time.


----------



## D40 (Aug 5, 2008)

I do, To learn for one, that is probably the biggest. I know so little


----------



## D-50 (Aug 5, 2008)

I tend to shoot in aperature priority but when I do shoot full manual its in a setting where I have the time to set up a shot although but under/overexposing in a pirority mode you are essentially using full manual. If lighting conditis are very tircky full manual is useful as well.


----------



## AngieDoogles (Aug 5, 2008)

D40 said:


> I do, To learn for one, that is probably the biggest. I know so little



That's why I use manual too. When I do weddings, my boss likes for me to use aperture priority, but I prefer manual. Maybe because it's what I'm used to...


----------



## TATTRAT (Aug 5, 2008)

I shoot manual, but mainly for night time shooting and portrait type work. Besides that, it is normally aperture priority mode for me.


----------



## manaheim (Aug 5, 2008)

Someone like JUST revitalized THIS evil thread.  Just read that.


----------



## table1349 (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> What type of photography do you shoot in manual? And why do you shoot in manual anyway? Does Exposure comp kind of like manual when you use a priority mode? Anyways my main question is, how fast do you do manual settings and snap the shot? Lots of people say they use manual most of the time, i find that hard to do when most of my shots are moving subjects (sports for example)...
> 
> Even moving the camera by a little can throw the exposure off by 1/3 of a stop. I find manual to be ineffecient for me unless I am using a tripod and dont have to worry about a moving subject (Such as landscape)...
> 
> I use Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority most of the time.



I began photography when manual was the only option for shooting.  Manual teaches you to think of every aspect of the shot not just some of the aspect by relying on the camera to automatically make adjustments for you.  

If you develop a good working understanding of all of the elements it is much easier to not find yourself scratching your head wondering how to get a shot and when you run into that tough situation where to begin to adjust to get the shot you want.  In 30+ years of shooting I have a pretty good understanding of all the components and can put them together.  

That in no way implies that I have nothing to learn.  There is a vast amount of learning that I can and strive to do.  But for me, manual has given me a good base to work from.  And if ain't broke, don't fix it.  

Sports is my preferred type of photography.  Part of shooting manual is also understanding your equipment.  That means the dreaded R.T.F.M. *Read The Freaking Manual.* From cover to cover.  Once you are completely comfortable with the operation of you camera, making needed adjustments will become second nature.  You don't have to think what button to push, wheel to turn or which way to push the joystick to make adjustments. You react naturally.  The only concession that I use now it AF.  It does make tracking faster, but part of that is also because view finders and focus screens are not what they used to be.


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 5, 2008)

edit: insert troll

sheep


----------



## Alpha (Aug 5, 2008)

Full manual for anything that doesn't move much, and some things that do, depending on distance to subject. I shoot manual because I can.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

What type of photography do you shoot in manual? 
All types. These were all or almost all shot manual mode with AF Tracking turned on.
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130820
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130822
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130824
http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130826​
Allot but not 100% of my macro and wild-life (if you can call park life wild?) is all manual too. The ones's that arn't manual are shot in *P*rogram mode.

http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128479​

Why do you shoot in manual anyway? 
It's not really a distrust of the camera's suggestions as much as it is that I know better what I want than the camera does. A person with a furry black sweater... Do I care allot about the furry texture of the sweater? Sometimes the camera will clip that out and expose for the face - even sometimes considering the BG which I may not care at all about and would be fine with it completely blown out. 

Spot meter you say? Yes, they're great! I've loved in camera spot meters since the OM4 first introduced them. I like OM style best too where you can take up to 8 (in it's first incarnation) point samples and the camera would average them for you. But after I have a basic reading of a scene I don't need spot of area meters. If you understand the metering your camera has and can conclude the light conditions therefrom then the extrapolated manual setting from there just make sense. *P*rogram mode with a spot meter would be fine too but it's kinda troublesome. In matrix and weighted area metering modes too often the camera is fooled by dark or light surfaces. I'm not. 


Is Exposure comp kind of like manual when you use a priority mode?
No. Comp is just raising or lowering the elevation scale a little. See: http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1307145&postcount=4


How fast do you do manual settings and snap the shot? 
Click, snap. Snap, snap, snap. Click, snap, snap. 
About the same speed as a person reading that out loud.   The "click" is the aperture or shutter adjustment. 


I find it hard to do when most of my shots are moving subjects (sports for example)
You shouldn't. The light isn't usually changing. If it is then I guess you need to meter for that. A football field at night is a great example. There are three bright spots (center and goal posts) with two 1/4 stop darker areas between - depending on the stadium of course! If I meter for an exposure between the two everything except the very darkest shadows will be perfect enough for magazines and etc. with just a slight touch to the slider in CameraRAW when bringing them in.  Now let's say I have a really long lens and I want to get the guys facial expression when he's getting sacked by a HUGE linebacker. Well his Helmet and jersey are white and his face is in the sharp shadows from the face-guard and the helmet visor. Your camera isn't going to expose it right in any of the auto or semi-auto modes and there's enough difference there that maybe tying to do it in CameraRAW is going to add allot of noise and remove detail (like the texture of the black cream they wear under their eyes). If you're in manual with your grey-card exposure already set just open up the aperture a stop or two with the thumb-wheel, and take the sequence -> pacheet-pacheet-pacheet-pacheet-pacheet-pacheet (pacheet=sound of expensive autowinder ) and thumb back to the grey-card setting again before you forget. It's one fluid motion.


Even moving the camera by a little can throw the exposure off by 1/3 of a stop.
It all depends on the environment. A motocross track for example and you would be right. But the lights, shadows, dirt, and billboards around the track are going to cause a cameras auto exposure system to go kinda nuts. Track photography is kinda like fashion photography in that you get all set up for one position and then wait for the bike to fly into frame before squeezing off the sequence - and I'll spare you the text representations of the sound effects this time.   Then it's off to the next position, etc.


----------



## ksmattfish (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> ...i find that hard to do when most of my shots are moving subjects (sports for example)...
> 
> Even moving the camera by a little can throw the exposure off by 1/3 of a stop.



Exposure only changes if the light changes.  Moving the camera slightly usually doesn't change the amount of light, but the meter may change as the tones of the scene move around the various metering segments.  As long as the subject is staying in the same light exposure remains the same.  That's why I shoot in M.  I don't want the camera changing the exposure because the tones of the subject have moved around the composition.  I only want to change exposure when the light has changed, or my vision of the finished photograph has changed.  

The meter isn't telling you correct exposure.  It's telling you how to create a photograph where all the tones in the scene are averaged to middle gray.  Depending on the metering mode the camera will give priority to various parts of the scene, and just changing the metering mode can cause the meter to give different settings even though the scene composition and lighting hasn't changed.  

If I take a white dog and a black dog and have them sit on a green lawn under sunny skies, and compose the scene so that each dog is to the side, and there's green grass in the center  my meter will probably recommend an exposure of approximately f/16 @ 1/100 @ ISO 100, and that will probably be about right.  If I move the white dog to the center of the image the meter will recommend less exposure.  If I move the black dog to the center of the image the meter will recommend more exposure.  But the light never changes, so the exposure doesn't need to either.


----------



## kundalini (Aug 5, 2008)

I shoot manual out of habit.  I've tried Av and Tv at times and will probaly use them sometimes in the future.  I dunno.  I just like manual.


----------



## davebmck (Aug 5, 2008)

There are many exposures you just can't get right with auto settings.  I trust my exposure meter for certain shots, but it's good to understand when it can be wrong.  I set my display to show the histogram after each shot.  If you get in the habit of looking at this for each shot, you can see when you need to adjust the exposure.

The more you shoot manual, the more it will become natural for you to make quick adjustments and it will improve your photography skills.  Yes, I use aperture and shutter priority, but only when they are appropriate for the situation.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

But the light is always changing... Unless the subject isnt moving and ur holding still.. Like football, I dont have time to look at the meter to see if its exposed right...

And please stop comparing auto vs full manual, im mostly talking about a priority mode, not auto or program...

Unless you are used to using full time manual all the time I dont see why I would ever want to except in abnormal lighting situations such as night shots...

99% of the time I use Tv or Av, with exposure comp up to 2 full stops, that is enough most of the time, i havent had any problems.

Do I need to learn full manual? Or can I just use it for when I need a night shot or something different like that?


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 5, 2008)

davebmck said:


> I set my display to show the histogram after each shot.  If you get in the habit of looking at this for each shot, you can see when you need to adjust the exposure.



This is great advice.... but it is completely irrelevant of the shooting mode... assuming a desired aperture of f2.8.... if your histogram shows that your meter is off by a stop you can manually correct the shutter by a stop or use aperture priority exp comp +1 and achieve the same result.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7,
That's an awfully funny football stadium where the the lights are always changing.  Someone needs to take the whiskey bottle away from the guys in the lighting booth!


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

ksmattfish said:


> Exposure only changes if the light changes.  Moving the camera slightly usually doesn't change the amount of light, but the meter may change as the tones of the scene move around the various metering segments.  As long as the subject is staying in the same light exposure remains the same.  That's why I shoot in M.  I don't want the camera changing the exposure because the tones of the subject have moved around the composition.  I only want to change exposure when the light has changed, or my vision of the finished photograph has changed.
> 
> The meter isn't telling you correct exposure.  It's telling you how to create a photograph where all the tones in the scene are averaged to middle gray.  Depending on the metering mode the camera will give priority to various parts of the scene, and just changing the metering mode can cause the meter to give different settings even though the scene composition and lighting hasn't changed.
> 
> If I take a white dog and a black dog and have them sit on a green lawn under sunny skies, and compose the scene so that each dog is to the side, and there's green grass in the center  my meter will probably recommend an exposure of approximately f/16 @ 1/100 @ ISO 100, and that will probably be about right.  If I move the white dog to the center of the image the meter will recommend less exposure.  If I move the black dog to the center of the image the meter will recommend more exposure.  But the light never changes, so the exposure doesn't need to either.



This seems illogical to me, although logical at the same time... lol


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> prodigy2k7,
> That's an awfully funny football stadium where the the lights are always changing.  Someone needs to take the whiskey bottle away from the guys in the lighting booth!



The lighting itself doesnt change, but how much light reflected does change. Different colors reflect different amounts of light doesnt it? Maybe im wrong...

Such as lots of white jerseys, then lots of black jeysers... One second white jerseys fill the frame (quarterback throwing the ball) then you zoom down field at black jeyseys filling the frame...
You gotta zoom, compose, and use manual to get the right metering... To me that sounds like it takes too long... Id rather let the computer compute it for me...


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> This is great advice.... but it is completely irrelevant of the shooting mode... assuming a desired aperture of f2.8.... if your histogram shows that your meter is off by a stop you can manually correct the shutter by a stop or use aperture priority exp comp +1 and achieve the same result.




This is the reason why I dont understand if I need to or should learn to use manual fast. I know how to do it slowly, but i dont feel i need to be a pro at it (using it fast i mean)...

I can do the same thing in a priority mode... (av or tv)


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 5, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> Is Exposure comp kind of like manual when you use a priority mode?
> No. Comp is just raising or lowering the elevation scale a little. See: http://thephotoforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1307145&postcount=4



I need some help with this.  

From the bulk of your post the way I understand it you pretty much  disregard the cameras meter and use your eye to formulate appropriate aperture and shutter values.  If this is the case you have reached photographic enlightenment and I have no further argument or comment aside from the obvious statement that most people can`t achieve this.  

If I am wrong than you are using your cameras meter as some point of reference to evaluate over or under exposure.  If this is the case exp comp is exactly like manual when using a priority mode.  If at 2.8 your camera meters suggests 1/250 and YOUR independent opinion suggest 1/500 you can either adjust the shutter by one stop to 1/500 or adjust the exp comp by 1 stop.

We all seem to be talking about taking pictures of black and white dogs and furry black sweaters.  Instead I`ll talk about the clouds in the sky varying the exposure levels from one minute to the next.  In Aperture Priority if my camera is off by a stop on my subject I can adjust the exp comp by a stop and negate any further changes to environment.


----------



## ksmattfish (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> But the light is always changing...



Is it?  I run into very few situations where I find that so.  Have you ever used an incident light meter?  Reflective meters (like in cameras) measure tones in the scene.  Incident meters measure light.  Using an incident meter may give you a different perception of light.   



prodigy2k7 said:


> I dont have time to look at the meter to see if its exposed right...



A great reason to learn to estimate exposure with your own eyes.  It's not as hard as you think.  The instant feedback of digital cameras make it easy to practice.  Start with sunny 16, then check out Fred Parker's site http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm 



prodigy2k7 said:


> And please stop comparing auto vs full manual, im mostly talking about a priority mode, not auto or program...



Modes and meters don't matter except in photo geek gab sessions.  Accurate exposure is what matters.  Modes and meters may help you estimate exposure more accurately.  Any shame for using P or pride for using M will be completely forgotten and the photo will be judged on it's own merits as it's being viewed.  Not how it was created.    



prodigy2k7 said:


> ...I dont see why I would ever want to ...



Then don't use M or whatever.  Use the tools, techniques, and materials that bring you enjoyment and success.  It doesn't matter what works for me or anyone else; it just matters what works for you.  

If someone pulls some sort of condescending attitude because you aren't shooting in M, or RAW, or with film, or with prime lenses, or with medium format, or with cool brand name gear realize that they have to do this to get attention because they aren't proud of their own photos.  If their photos were any good they could just kick back and say "Look at my work.  I rock your world!" instead of trying to make you feel small because of the gear/techniques/materials you use.  Don't fall for it.


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 5, 2008)

ksmattfish said:


> Is it?  I run into very few situations where I find that so.  Have you ever used an incident light meter?  Reflective meters (like in cameras) measure tones in the scene.  Incident meters measure light.  Using an incident meter may give you a different perception of light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well said....


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

Why do our own eyes change them? To me this just seems illogical... You look at a room in your house lets say the wall. You look a few inches up and look directly at the light, more light is coming in isnt it? Why does it hurt your eyes.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> The lighting itself doesnt change, but how much light reflected does change. Different colors reflect different amounts of light doesnt it? Maybe im wrong...



Well try it. Get some colored papers, and set up the camera with a grey card and custom WB with a white card. Then shoot all the papers. They should be all dead on!



> You gotta zoom, compose, and use manual to get the right metering... To me that sounds like it takes too long... *Id rather let the computer compute it for me...*



Oh, so it is a tiny bit of trolling then like dEARlEADER thought. I thought you were asking an honest question. Oh well, that's not important I guess.

Anyway, it's not perfect for every situation 100% of the time but it's better for me 80 to 90 percent of the time. It's almost never too slow to use if your camera has two dedicated dials like any camera should and I get way fewer dead shots in manual than I do in the auto or assist modes.




dEARlEADER said:


> I need some help with this.
> 
> From the bulk of your post the way I understand it you pretty much  disregard the cameras meter and use your eye to formulate appropriate aperture and shutter values.  If this is the case you have reached photographic enlightenment....



Ohmmmm, ohmmm, ohmmm, breath, ohmmm, oh-_burp_-mm 




> If I am wrong than you are using your cameras meter as some point of reference to evaluate over or under exposure.



For over and under no. For the basic off of grey, yes. The over and under is in-brain and translates to thumb movements that adjust either the aperture or the shutter depending.  You can't look at a scene through the lens with the f and s settings right there in view (from he grey-card reading), see a shadow you want detail in and make the decision to either open the aperture a little or select a slightly slower shutter speed and then put them back after the shot(s)? That's not god-like or enlightened is it?  If it is I suddenly feel very special indeed! 




> If this is the case exp comp is exactly like manual when using a priority mode.  If at 2.8 your camera meters suggests 1/250 and YOUR independent opinion suggest 1/500 you can either adjust the shutter by one stop to 1/500 or adjust the exp comp by 1 stop.



OK. But how is that like manual where you can adjust *both* on the fly with thumb-wheels? Beside the obvious exposure control differences isn't Comp usually tucked away in a menu setting somewhere? Comp is best used for situations where you know you camera meter is going to be metering a little too hot or consistently underexposing the frames for what you're trying to achieve. So you "compensate" for that with that setting. I guess you _could_ do it... <shrug>




> We all seem to be talking about taking pictures of black and white dogs and furry black sweaters.  Instead I`ll talk about the clouds in the sky varying the exposure levels from one minute to the next.  In Aperture Priority if my camera is off by a stop on my subject I can adjust the exp comp by a stop and negate any further changes to environment.



The OP specified sports. But hang-gliding should not be much different at all.  And you're right of course if you have a sparse cloud layer rolling over head messing with the amount of available light then raise the blade, make that change, flick it on over to a priority assist mode. I would!


----------



## usayit (Aug 5, 2008)

In an even lighted area (football stadium, day light field, even in the street), am I the only one that takes a single reading and shoot with it?  Once the lighting changes (clouds roll in, sun rises higher, entering shade etc.), I take another reading (handheld), check it and again.. run/shoot with that setting.   Perhaps, I'm old fashioned.. but I do also use Aperture Priority quite a bit as well.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

No, we're the same. :thumbup:

But if the clouds are marbled in the sky and changing the light every minute or so Then I guess we can get a better run of shots from an assist mode. No?


Actually it sounds like we're in the majority here too.


----------



## ksmattfish (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> You look at a room in your house lets say the wall. You look a few inches up and look directly at the light, more light is coming in isnt it?



Try it with an incident meter.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

How often should you take another reading then? (No clouds) I mean when it just comes to the suns motion across the sky...

So your saying, lets say in horse racing, I can use the same exposure settings and snap away even tho the background is changing and colors are changing?

Thats, kinda...AWESOME lol...

Maybe I will do it...


----------



## usayit (Aug 5, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> No, we're the same. :thumbup:
> 
> But if the clouds are marbled in the sky and changing the light every minute or so Then I guess we can get a better run of shots from an assist mode. No?
> 
> ...



On rare occasions but in most cases the clouds are dispersed enough that the readings are very close.  Its pretty quick to adjust with a fraction of a stop.

Assist mode in this case can sometimes just complicate things and slow you down.  As someone said... black jersey and white jersey.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> How often should you take another reading then? (No clouds) I mean when it just comes to the suns motion across the sky...



For me? From 10am to 2pm maybe you don't need to depending on what part of the Earth you're standing on while photographing. I guess before and after that noon arc only once an hour. When the sun is setting (~1hour period) and rising (same period) just use common sense. If an assist or *P*rogram mode is going to work better then do that.



> So your saying, lets say in horse racing, I can use the same exposure settings and snap away even tho the background is changing and colors are changing?



Yes sir. you should be able to in almost all situations. Assuming you're exposing for the riders or horses.  If it's at night and there are hot spots under each light either set it for the shot under the light or the in between places and then take your sequences from entry to exit of those areas. Usually the light on a night track for horses is pretty even though. 



> Thats, kinda...AWESOME lol...
> 
> Maybe I will do it...



Yeah, give it a try. It's fun! 




usayit said:


> On rare occasions but in most cases the clouds are dispersed enough that the readings are very close.  Its pretty quick to adjust with a fraction of a stop.
> 
> Assist mode in this case can sometimes just complicate things and slow you down.  As someone said... black jersey and white jersey.



Yup! Exactly right - on both counts!

I wonder if there is some climate (somewhere) where fast moving overhead marbly clouds are very very common?  I suppose there would have to be as diverse as this good Earth is...


----------



## ksmattfish (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> Such as lots of white jerseys, then lots of black jeysers... One second white jerseys fill the frame (quarterback throwing the ball) then you zoom down field at black jeyseys filling the frame...



Yeah, I never run into anything like that at weddings.    Bride in all white.  Groom in all black.  That's why I like M.  In any auto or semi-auto mode the all black subject fools the meter into thinking the light has decreased, so it over exposes.  The all white subject fools the meter into thinking the light has increased so it under exposes.  Unless I set the exposure compensation to deal with the subject tone.    

Don't forget to set flash exposure compensation, it works the same way.  

Check out that Fred Parker link I posted above.  It probably explains exposure better than me.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks! That is what I wnated to hear. Sorry I get confused and say stuff weird sometimes.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

Hehehe this thread is funny. We have 3 or 4 guys saying the exact same things over and over.


----------



## usayit (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> How often should you take another reading then? (No clouds) I mean when it just comes to the suns motion across the sky...



When you observe that the light changes...  (or when you spot check your histogram).



> So your saying, lets say in horse racing, I can use the same exposure settings and snap away even tho the background is changing and colors are changing?
> 
> Thats, kinda...AWESOME lol...
> 
> Maybe I will do it...



Just try it... and see how it works out but it will take practice.  Only works if the general area (the entire horse track) is in uniform light.  Depending on your camera (film or shooting slides), many photographers will take a single reading in this situation and purposely underexpose between 1/3rd to a full stop.  As with many digital cameras, it is far easier to recover shadows than blown out highlights... a lot of the data retained by the camera's processing is in the shadows.

1) Go to an open street area where you and the general area of interest is in the same light.
2) Using your camera, take a reading off the palm of your hand.  Set your camera to that setting.  Perhaps underexpose by 1/3rd of a stop
3) Now just leave it there and take a few shots.
4) Walk around and take a few more.
5) Now walk into a slightly shaded area and open up a stop or two (you'll get better at estimating with practice).  
6) Take a few more pictures.
7) Walk back out into the daylight and stop down a stop or two.
8) Take a few more pictures.

Now go into a cafe... have some coffee.. and check the histograms.  Practice gets you closer to a "neutral" or slightly underexposed histogram consistently.

You have just learned what many street photographers have been doing for decades.

Again.. it takes practice.  I've been doing it for years and still manage to bugger it up when I stop shooting and get out of practice.  I would imagine a professional doing this everyday can nail each exposure in the same manner.

You master this technique and you'll be surprised just how fast you can shoot....


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 5, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> Thanks! That is what I wnated to hear. Sorry I get confused and say stuff weird sometimes.



Not a problem. Better to "say stuff weird sometimes" and learn than to never learn it.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 6, 2008)




----------



## Trenton Romulox (Aug 6, 2008)

I shoot manual all the time. I honestly can't tell you one time in the last year that I have taken it out of full manual mode. 

I can't really explain why I do it. I also prefer manual transmission cars. 

So I guess I can explain it: I want full control. If there's a mistake made that makes me miss a shot, it's my fault, and not the camera's, or the car's if I'm driving. I want to have complete responsibility, so when there's a mistake, I learn from it, and have nothing to blame it on but my own errors.


----------



## Battou (Aug 6, 2008)

I shoot everything in manual, cuz that is what my cameras are. My EF and AE-1 have shutter speed-priority, but it doesn't work for me for some reason, everything is heavilly underexposed even after battery compensation. So I don't bother with it unless absolutely necessary.


----------



## elemental (Aug 6, 2008)

Can this be a sticky, or can we maybe make a "settings" forum?



Like Battou, I shoot "full manual" for most everything these days because that's what my camera is (I shoot with my Ricoh almost exclusively). When I'm using the digital, it's usually on aperture priority. It's a heavily automated camera and that's how I use it. If I'm in a situation where aperture priority or whatever the appropriate assisted mode is isn't getting the job done, I'll use manual.

I just don't understand this obsession with modes. It boggles my mind. If you use the light meter to set the appropriate shutter speed for f/3.5 and I shoot the same scene in Av, we get the same picture. If it's off, we compensate. In some cases, you need manual. You use it. What difference does it make? It's about the pictures you produce, not what works for you to get them.


----------



## prodigy2k7 (Aug 6, 2008)

elemental said:


> Can this be a sticky, or can we maybe make a "settings" forum?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who cares I learned something new. Not to mention the camera wont under or over expose because it thinks something that isnt true...


----------



## K_Pugh (Aug 6, 2008)

*Manual:*


 When using Flash (portraits, general shots, anything that's not moving & consistant light)
 When in the "studio" (still lifes, products, portraits, etc)
 Landscapes
 Cityscapes
Street Photography (generally using the FED)

*Aperture Priority:*


_Most_ of the time with ambient light (excluding above & action shots)
Portraits, General Shots, Abstracts, etc.. (for speed really, i should slow down though)

*Shutter Priority:
*

Action shots (with or without flash - still experimenting here though)


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 6, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> Who cares I learned something new. Not to mention the camera wont under or over expose because it thinks something that isnt true...



Yep!  Did you watch that video in my 1st post? (post #10 above) About 1/2 way through it shows why that's true.


----------



## SBlanca (Aug 6, 2008)

i mainly shoot manual, and use it for pretty much everyting, unless i'm in a situation where i need to use aperture or shutter speed priority. manual helps you learn stuff much quicker because you have to get used to changing the settings and stuff..


----------



## Village Idiot (Aug 6, 2008)

I do a lot of flash photography. Manual = 1/250 ISO - 100 and an aperture to match the flash exposures. Not a lot of adjusting there and it the camera can't change those settings without ruining the shot.

I like AV mode for events as if you see a candid shot, you can get it right away. The down side is when the camera meters off something black and gives you a shutter speed of 1/30 instead of 1/100.


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 6, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> For over and under no. For the basic off of grey, yes. The over and under is in-brain and translates to thumb movements that adjust either the aperture or the shutter depending.



Why not meter off your grey card.... adjust for the 6% difference between your grey card and camera meter.... lock that calibration in a priority mode and fire away all night long?? That way if there are any hot spots in the field(at night) or cloud variables in the day you don't even have to worry about it.  If you are grey carding before each shot I concede.  




Bifurcator said:


> OK. But how is that like manual where you can adjust *both* on the fly with thumb-wheels? Beside the obvious exposure control differences isn't Comp usually tucked away in a menu setting somewhere?



Generally speaking when using a priority mode you have an idea in mind.  If the shot requires the use of F4 to create a desired dof I typically don't need quick access to both.  If I alter the aperture I will lose the depth required for the shoot.  If the shutter speed is off exp comp to taste/histogram and blast away.

On my little boys camera (D60) exp comp adjustments are made quickly with the thumb wheel in combination with depressing the exp comp button.  Hehehe the D60 only has ONE thumb wheel so it's the same process (thumbwheel plus button) to adjust shutter speed in manual.  

<raises hand> to living in an environment where fast moving clouds wreak havoc on exposures 5 out of 7 days a week (Huntsville, Muskoka, Ontario, Canada) if you care to research.  

I am arguing purely for the sake of discussion.  I am not PRO or ANTI any mode.  They are all usefull and have distinct advantages depending on the environment, user skill level, and desired result.  I get the most out of  P,A, and M for what I do.  For the record  I find the meter on my Nikon to be mostly accurate unless I'm fooling it with obvious indiscretions.


----------



## Joves (Aug 6, 2008)

Well Im in the manual and aperture priority depending on what the shot requires. I dont fint scrolling two wheels at once all the difficult in manual to get what I want.  I use Aperture when it is a partly cloudy day and, the subjects light level is getting changed every few seconds. Which happens alot in N.Az some days. I cant tweak the setting fast enough at times. 
 I have nothing against programmed modes or, P for other people but for me it doesnt work.


----------



## Hawaii Five-O (Aug 6, 2008)

my canon Ae-1 program is manual so I don't have much choice, but on my digital camera and my Elan 7e I've been using AP mode lately.

The AE-1 program made me learn though:hug::

I think for the old timers, like in the 70's, manual camera usage was like second nature because that's all they had, so they could make adjustments pretty quick  to capture a picture of any type.


----------



## Battou (Aug 6, 2008)

C677T said:


> my canon Ae-1 program is manual so I don't have much choice, but on my digital camera and my Elan 7e I've been using AP mode lately.
> 
> The AE-1 program made me learn though:hug::
> 
> I think for the old timers, like in the 70's, manual camera usage was like second nature because that's all they had, so they could make adjustments pretty quick  to capture a picture of any type.




The AE-1 P does have a shutter speed-priority, but I would not trust it to save me life.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 7, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> > Originally Posted by Bifurcator
> > For over and under no. For the basic off of grey, yes. The over and under is in-brain and translates to thumb movements that adjust either the aperture or the shutter depending.
> 
> 
> Why not meter off your grey card.... adjust for the 6% difference between your grey card and camera meter.... lock that calibration in a priority mode and fire away all night long?? That way if there are any hot spots in the field(at night) or cloud variables in the day you don't even have to worry about it.  If you are grey carding before each shot I concede.



Umm, because there is no such feature on a camera?   That would be a dream if there were tho! Seriously, try it. Meter off the grey card, set your aperture in aperture priority mode and then point the camera at something white, now black. Totally different and actually wrong readings right? OK, so if you do that and then point it at a black horse the riders small (in proportion to the horse) face isn't going to affect the meter as it should and will likely be blown out. Same with his white jockey uniform.  Now zoom up on the jockey, the white uniform overpowers the metering and the detail of horse's main at the bottom of the frame gets squashed completely in dead blacks. Actually this should be a shutter priority example, but it's the same difference.

There is no mode besides manual on a commercially available dSLR that will let you keep your grey metering as you're suggesting AFAIK. Unless they came up with something new I don't know about?   Quite possible. There is some specialty stuff on the horizon where focus and exposure settings almost don't matter at all but it's not here (main stream) just yet. Another 5 or 8 years maybe - unless they move faster than usual. 




> > Originally Posted by Bifurcator
> > OK. But how is that like manual where you can adjust both on the fly with thumb-wheels? Beside the obvious exposure control differences isn't Comp usually tucked away in a menu setting somewhere?
> 
> 
> ...



1.
Right, very true for a single subject with a single effect in mind. What if you have to (or want to) shoot the (white) coffee cup, and then the entire (brown) table, and then the whole (black) kitchen? Some in-camera computers will get it kinda close while others will choke completely. The Grey card + manual will usually nail all three and if you know you're exposure tables changing the aperture to get the whole kitchen in focus doesn't present any problems (besides maybe a tripod ). 

2.
OK, then if that works - awesome.  You have another way of doing it. :thumbup:  Nothing wrong with that!

3.
Yeah then I would probably be using a priority mode allot when shooting outside.

4.
Discussion is fun!  I dig it! And you're absolutely right about the modes. They're just different camera tools. How lame would it be to have a toolbox full of tool and then limit yourself to just a screwdriver when building a house?   It's just that the manual mode with a little learning is a very very multipurpose tool.  Because it requires a little learning however, people tend to shy away from it. Well, by reading this thread not nearly as much as I thought :thumbup: but...

It's all good! Do what works for you, repair what didn't work in photoshop if you can,  remain dynamic and open to ideas, and have fun.  Having fun being the most important bit by far of course!


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 7, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> Umm, because there is no such feature on a camera?   That would be a dream if there were tho! Seriously, try it. Meter off the grey card, set your aperture in aperture priority mode and then point the camera at something white, now black. Totally different and actually wrong readings right? OK, so if you do that and then point it at a black horse the riders small (in proportion to the horse) face isn't going to affect the meter as it should and will likely be blown out. Same with his white jockey uniform.  Now zoom up on the jockey, the white uniform overpowers the metering and the detail of horse's main at the bottom of the frame gets squashed completely in dead blacks. Actually this should be a shutter priority example, but it's the same difference.



Okay....  I don't believe I am fully understand your technique... please help me...

Lets continue the following criteria:

1. Evening football game / with hot spot variable lighting
2. One team white helmets black shirts
3. The other team black helmets white shirts
4. You are using gray card in manual mode
5. You remain in a stationary position
6. You are taking various facial and full body exposures

Please describe step by step your technique of correctly exposing each image.  It would also be great if you could keep it layman for me.... sometimes you speak like an android from a higher planet.

thanks bifurcator..

ps - don't mean to be a thread hog so if you want to take this to PM that would be fine.


----------



## Mystwalker (Aug 7, 2008)

I use "Manual" with flash.  I am not fast enough to use manual without flash compensating for movement and light, especially when all shots are of my daughter running around house.

When outdoor, use "Av" like 99% of other times.
Hardly ever use "Tv", but have played with it trying to get flying birds, water and stuff.

After reading "Mav's" arguement in another thread am going to look into "Program" mode.


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 7, 2008)

Ha ha... you realize you're going to make me end up hating manual mode now right? You'll win by default and I'll develop yet another tw-tw-twitch. 




dEARlEADER said:


> Okay....  I don't believe I am fully understand your technique... please help me...
> 
> Lets continue the following criteria:
> 
> ...



Well it's not "my technique". It's just the way (most people I thought) use manual mode. Nothing special really.

In that scenario I would meter the grey, set the manual settings, and just shoot. If I was on a 300 or 400mm and wanted to get a face that was looking down a tad or was otherwise in harsh shadow I'd roll my finger over the aperture dial and open it up a click. After I took that shot I would close it back down and continue on.

Baseball is maybe a better example. Grey meter for the field and shoot all night at the same setting - white, black, uniforms and caps it's all going to expose correctly. Now I want some shots of the dug-out... It's in shadow and not lit as well as the field. I look both through the camera and with my eyes at the dug-out lighting (hopefully I did all this before the game) and make an eye judgement at how much I have to open the aperture (for that light - not for uniform color or anything). I open the aperture however much I thought and then check the LCD in case of dSLR or just view it through the EFV in case of bridge cameras (never having to remove my eye! :thumbup: - mine is usually set to display all shots in the EVF for either 10ses. or until I half-press the shutter button again - wonderful for checking every image as you shoot). Anyway that's it. After the dug-out shot(s) I roll it back to the grey metering.

The advantages here are: 

While shooting the dugout those 4 or 6 silly incandescent bare bulbs they have hanging down won't throw my cameras' "computer" in the dirt and stomp on it. 

While following that pop-fly through the air, past the flood-lights and into the short-stop's mitt - my camera stays set properly for a shot of Hans Wagner's SE-grin just before he throws the runner out at third with a triple-play to second and wins the world series.  Yeah baby YEAH! 

I didn't have to change anything and the camera's light meters weren't thrown for a loop by any of the field or dug-out lights while shooting - the entire session.


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 7, 2008)

Bifurcator said:


> Ha ha... you realize you're going to make me end up hating manual mode now right? You'll win by default and I'll develop yet another tw-tw-twitch.
> 
> In that scenario I would meter the grey, set the manual settings, and just shoot. If I was on a 300 or 400mm and wanted to get a face that was looking down a tad or was otherwise in harsh shadow I'd roll my finger over the aperture dial and open it up a click. After I took that shot I would close it back down and continue on.
> 
> ...




That makes perfect sense!!! thanks.... but ... what about the hot spots? what about a day game with variable clouds? same technique? just grey card after every environment change? you have to meter off hot spots, soft spots, dugouts, cloud density and make a mental note like this -- (pop fly) okay... left field hot spot deduct 1/3 stop... medium cloud saturation deduct 2/3 stop... oh wait it's going deep to the fence out of the hot spot add 1/3 stop...

The method sounds good.... if the ambient lighting remains the same... but I can see missed shots if you meter under a cloud take a few snaps... grab some beer and a dog.... the cloud moves out.... the fat naked streaker runs out on the field... you drop your dog to take a snap....the exposures off.... now you have a fat naked overexposed guy...

thank you for explaining.... I better understand now... I'll give it a try next time i'm in that situation...


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 7, 2008)

Mystwalker said:


> After reading "Mav's" arguement in another thread am going to look into "Program" mode.




Where is Mav??   M A V is M I A

it's quite likely he went insane defending jpeg format in the numerous raw vs jpeg debates....

i miss him...


----------



## snowalker (Aug 7, 2008)

Alpha said:


> I shoot manual because I can.


That's nice!
All of us can shoot in manual mode.
The question in case is another: it's better to use all the time manual mode or is just a trend...?


----------



## table1349 (Aug 7, 2008)

snowalker said:


> That's nice!
> All of us can shoot in manual mode.



If all of _*"us"*_ *CAN* shoot in manual mode then why are there the vast proliferation of questions on shutter speed, aperture, metering, tough lighting conditions, etc. etc. etc.....?  Sorry a whole lot of folks *can't* shoot in manual mode.  If you learn to shoot in manual and get proficient at it, then using AV or TV becomes not only easier but more intuitive because you will be able to recognize when what the camera is suggesting is not correct for the shot you want to take.  You can make the adjustments needed to get the shot you want.  



> The question in case is another: it's better to use all the time manual mode or is just a trend...?


Trend?  TREND??  In all my reading I have yet to come across where Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre had AV, TV, Auto, Camera M, Program AE, Portrait, Foliage, Snow, Beach, Sunset, Fireworks, Aquarium, Underwater, Indoor, Kids & Pets, Night Snapshot, Color Accent, Color Swap, Digital Macro, Stitch Assist and any other un-named modes available to him.  Manual has been around since Photography began.

The only Trend I see here is more and more people getting into photography and not developing basic their photographic skills.  It's easier to let the camera do it.  And when the camera can't do it then they can't understand how to correct the problem.  

As for what is better.  It is better to develop and practice you basic photography skills.  Once you have accomplished that, then use whatever mode you want, be it manual, AV, TV or pure program for that matter.  You will understand what can and can't be done in what ever mode you shoot and you should know how to adjust to the situation for what ever you are using instead of just letting the camera being the boss.


----------



## usayit (Aug 7, 2008)

"Which is better" threads that come up with lenses, cameras, modes, techniques, etc... are pretty frequently started.

The one lesson that I see most people miss all-the-time is that there is no such thing as "better".  Just different tools in a tool box.  Discussions are fine and educational but getting a black and white answer to the question "better?" is futile.


----------



## elemental (Aug 7, 2008)

prodigy2k7 said:


> Who cares I learned something new. Not to mention the camera wont under or over expose because it thinks something that isnt true...



I'm sorry, that wasn't directed at you, it was more directed at the "which mode is best?" arguments. I completely understand what you're trying to learn from this, and I'm sorry it appeared personal.


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 7, 2008)

usayit said:


> "Which is better" threads that come up with lenses, cameras, modes, techniques, etc... are pretty frequently started.
> 
> The one lesson that I see most people miss all-the-time is that there is no such thing as "better".  Just different tools in a tool box.  Discussions are fine and educational but getting a black and white answer to the question "better?" is futile.




oh.... i thought you got that Mark II because it was "better"...


----------



## usayit (Aug 7, 2008)

Not necessarily better if you don't like heavy cameras....
Not necessarily better if you can't afford it
Not necessarily better if you need more than 8 megapixels
Not necessarily better if you need something discreet.
Not necessarily better if you need more resolving capabilities of MF/LF
Not necessarily better if you need higher ISO performance (5D)...
Not necessarily better if you like to use older manual lenses... 


See??  you get my point??  There are better choices given a specific purpose but a blanket, black and white statement that states A is better than B is futile.

Its a lesson that way too many people miss because we all suffer from G.A.S. to a certain extent.

Now ask me which is better... the 1dMII or my M8?  The question is impossible to answer.

Then ask me which is better... the 1dMII or a lower end Rebel?  A lot of people traveling will say Rebel (lighter).  A lot of smart consumers will choose Rebel for high bang for buck value.  Others... more serious in photography will obviously choose the 1dMII.  

Tools in a toolbox... thats all they are...


----------



## dEARlEADER (Aug 7, 2008)

usayit said:


> Not necessarily better if you don't like heavy cameras....
> Not necessarily better if you can't afford it
> Not necessarily better if you need more than 8 megapixels
> Not necessarily better if you need something discreet.
> ...




baaahaaaa.... i get ur point... i believe in it too!  Just pulling your chain...


----------



## ksmattfish (Aug 7, 2008)

My toaster is more complex than any of my cameras in manual.  I say that to encourage those who haven't taken the short time necessary to master M mode to do so.  Remember, before 1960ish everyone shot in full manual from kids and grannies to pros.  They all figured it out, and you can too.  Not too long before that many photogs didn't even have light meters.  Figuring exposure with your eyes and brain is easy too.  It just requires practice.  Digital cameras sure make practice easy.


----------



## usayit (Aug 7, 2008)

:Joker:

hehehe don't pull hard.....


----------



## Bifurcator (Aug 7, 2008)

ksmattfish said:


> My toaster is more complex than any of my cameras in manual.



So is mine!  

I've got Toaster version 5, you?




> Remember, before 1960ish everyone shot in full manual from kids and grannies to pros.  They all figured it out...



That was before America was dumbed down by design. 




usayit said:


> The one lesson that I see most people miss all-the-time is that there is no such thing as "better".  Just different tools in a tool box.  Discussions are fine and educational but getting a black and white answer to the question "better?" is futile.



Ooo, Hits the nail square on the head! bulls-eye, strike, home-run, touchdown, goal, score, +1, etc. 


*dEARlEADER wrote:*
what about a day game with variable clouds? same technique? 


Maybe. More likely a spot meter in program mode though - especially if they're fast moving like I think you're implying.

just grey card after every environment change? 

If it's more than like 10 min. apart then yes. But probably don't need to a third time. We already know the bright one, and we resampled the cloud-blocked-sun one. So we've got both and can just switch back and forth. I can be as dynamic as the weather tho with modes and etc. Including putting my camera away all together when the hail storm starts. 


you have to meter off hot spots, soft spots, dugouts, cloud density and make a mental note like this -- (pop fly) okay... left field hot spot deduct 1/3 stop... medium cloud saturation deduct 2/3 stop... oh wait it's going deep to the fence out of the hot spot add 1/3 stop...

Those sound like impossible conditions. Is that a little league game with two moms in the outfield holding torches? 

[video=google;-8281214729697017605]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8281214729697017605[/video]
[video=google;-4071492603185474862]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4071492603185474862[/video]
http://www.replayphotos.com/wakefor...t/aerial-close-up-of-groves-stadium_10751.cfm
http://www.replayphotos.com/wakefor...wake-forest-football-field-at-night_10755.cfm
http://www.replayphotos.com/wakeforestphotos/stadiums-print/groves-stadium-aerial_3346.cfm
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/07/30/matutai_wideweb__430x252.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/44Gloworm44/jackspictures18thapril2008207.jpg


The method sounds good.... if the ambient lighting remains the same... but I can see missed shots if you meter under a cloud take a few snaps... grab some beer and a dog.... the cloud moves out.... the fat naked streaker runs out on the field... you drop your dog to take a snap....the exposures off.... now you have a fat naked overexposed guy...


:lmao: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9sdTIXPU1Dg :lmao:


thank you for explaining.... I better understand now... I'll give it a try next time i'm in that situation...


----------



## SandShots (Aug 7, 2008)

when I first learned to use cameras i was taught to use in manual mode. then i figured out the rest of the gadjets on my cameras.

I use manual in studio settings that require, strobes, powerpacks etc..
outdoor shots with tricky off camera flash use. but ive also used it in everything else from action shots to portraits and of course bulb.

I know how to use it but i hardly do it anymore, its to easy to use todays digital cameras, they do alot of the work for you. but if need to i can rely on my skills of shooting M.

I do have light meters. 3 of them, dont use them much anymore, but can pull one out of the bag anytime and take readings.

I also have a Mamiya6x7 thats old ashell and of course is a full manual camera that i can operate easily.

Now a days I shoot In av tv and only some M.


----------



## Marco (Aug 8, 2008)

I use M for flash and for Birds in flight.

With BIF it's fairly necessary as the background is changing all the time, which will send the cameras metering all over the place.


----------



## Ejazzle (Aug 8, 2008)

i cant stand the camera choosing for me. i shoot sports all the time. I like to get everything perfectly dialed just how i want each particular shot to look.


----------

