# Clients printing images without permission from screen shots



## rub (Dec 17, 2011)

I went to a client / friends house for coffee the other day. As we were chatting, I noticed a horribly pixilated crappy framed image from her last session. It was a maternity shoot/family shoot with her bf's sister, husband and kid as well. When she saw me notice the picture she said, oh yeah, sister in law gave me that. 

I said "I'm sorry you have such a poor quality print - SIL must have saved her screen and then cropped it. In the new year we can order you a professional print if you like." It's still upsetting me. They haven't purchased any of the images yet, even though everytime I see them they say they loved them. 

How would you handle the same situation?


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## Derrel (Dec 17, 2011)

This incident describes exactly the problem with providing clients with ANY FORM of images until they have payed handsomely for access to the images that a photographer has been commissioned to create...

If you "give" clients low-resolution proofs before selling them a package of any type (digital files,prints,canvas prints, or any combination), your profit has been flushed down the toilet in many cases. ANY image is often enough to satisfy some people...even a lo-rez printed screen cap...


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 17, 2011)

Find better clients...

Heck, you could sue if you want to, but that probably won't help you find better clients.

Only real suggestion I have is to put a 'proof' watermark across the images you post online or at least a watermark with copyright info.  Most photo labs won't print them without a release, but there isn't much you can do about somebody saving a screen shot and printing it on their home printer...


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## rub (Dec 17, 2011)

Most of my clients are happy to puchase the high res files or professional prints.  I honestly dont think this client/firend did it herself - I just need to find a way to address them.  The watermark was cropped from the image.


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Dec 17, 2011)

Consider batch watermarking. And not just one watermark. But *watermarks*, plural, that go across the image and will discourage future theft.

You're client shouldn't be able to just "crop" your watermark out of the image.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 17, 2011)

rub said:


> Most of my clients are happy to puchase the high res files or professional prints.  I honestly dont think this client/firend did it herself - I just need to find a way to address them.  The watermark was cropped from the image.



There really isn't a way to address it.  If they weren't your friends or friends of friends, you would have never even known it had happened.

Since you do know, you feel slighted, but aside from suing them, which would probably lose you some friends, there isn't much you can do.

I guess, if I were you, I would mention that you saw the print and that you didn't think it showed off your work the way you think it should be.  Mention that the print quality was pretty poor and that the images online aren't meant for printing, but that you can create professional prints for them for $? or they can have the full res file for $?.

From there, unless you are prepared to ruin friendships, I would probably not push it any further.

Just my .02


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## Rephargotohp (Dec 17, 2011)

Just say"Hey thanks for the copyright infringment, I'll be going out of business soon, Can I have more coffee? it's quite delicious"


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## rub (Dec 17, 2011)

Kerbouchard -thats about what I was thinking - maybe just sending of an email explaining that the images are copyrighted, and I would be happy to provide prints/files for rates listed on my site.  They know I charge for high res files - she bought them from me before for a shoot a couple years ago.  I dont want to make a huge stink, but I do want to educate them.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Dec 17, 2011)

Boy, that would really rub me the wrong way!


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## BlairWright (Dec 17, 2011)

Not cool, obviously they don't appreciate you. Personally I would deal with this head on.


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## o hey tyler (Dec 17, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Boy, that would really rub me the wrong way!




I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.


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## nickzou (Dec 17, 2011)

Hmmm keep us updated should you choose to take further action. I'm kinda curious as to what you can realistically do in this situation.


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## katerolla (Dec 17, 2011)

I&#8217;ve done a friend&#8217;s cousins wedding, (I did not charge for my time) I gave them the proofs and said if you want any prints it will cost  $x per prints, they said no thanks I will scan the ones you gave me and print them myself. My blood just boiled when I hear that.  
That was a very valuable lesson I learned, I let it go and refuse to deal with them again.
Just don&#8217;t deal with them again and if you do a shoot charge for the shoot not for prints.


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## Big Mike (Dec 17, 2011)

Many people have no idea this is illegal, some don't even know it's wrong.  Educating your clients is a good start, but as mentioned, if you put your photo 'out there', even if they are low rez. the opportunity will be there.


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## rub (Dec 17, 2011)

I should clarify they were taken from the proofing on my website. I use photocart so there is no right click saving so it was a screenshot save.


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## Big Mike (Dec 17, 2011)

Well, that's certainly more shady...but that's the risk we take with on-line proofing.
You can set up photo cart to watermark the photos, or you can do it yourself....and like someone mentioned...we're talking water mark*s* over the whole shot.

You could also raise your sitting fee, and if people ask why, you could tell them that it's to make up for people stealing your images.  

And this is yet again, another reason why an in-person sales appointment is the best way to sell prints.  (I'm not there yet...but someday maybe).


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## xposurepro (Dec 18, 2011)

We start out by doing all in-studio sales. There are no sneak peeks on a blog or Facebook. They see them during the ordering session and there are no proofs to take home or option for me to upload a gallery somewhere so they can goof around for a month looking at them before ordering. We have minimum purchase requirements based on the type of client session and what session options or add ons were selected. This prevents us from having to worry about somebody coming in and order 5 4x6s then scanning them and never coming back for more. The client is not left alone with their images displayed for them to snap off crappy shots with their cell phones (people will do that). When going over the product line we include the High-Res digital files stating they are $300 each and we clearly emphasize the fact that purchasing these files comes with the legal documentation that is required in order to make prints from the files we provide or if you want to scan the prints you purchase. Note we don't say "Yeah you can print from them" .. they are being clearly educated that legal documentation is required for printing from files *AND for scanning prints*. If they are the type of people who will do it no matter what it doesn't change anything. However, we have educated them on right and wrong and that's all you can do there.
Give them everything on Facebook and they will print them. In the past we only gave free Facebook pics of the poses that they purchased in their collection and those pics had a huge logo streaming across the bottom. This eliminated the desire to print from them. However, we took it a step further and now low-res files, just like high-res files, are an actual product with a value. This helps to further educate the consumer that digital files are in fact a product and by purchasing low-res files or by not doing so, it either increases our profit or reduces our workload.
When it comes to updating our online portfolio, this is not done right away. You won't find me posting on the blog .. "Check out these awesome portraits from todays client !!" .. or yesterdays .. or last weeks .. in fact it might be several months down the road before I might post something on the blog or Facebook. This is long after the ordering session and by this point if the client hasn't re-ordered odds are they won't anyway.

To sum it up .. 
Online Shopping Carts = Bad
Sneak Peek Blog Posts = Bad
Free Facebook Images = Bad
Unsupervised Proof Access = Bad
Tiny Watermarks = Bad


Oh yeah and we also do not offer anything printed on glossy paper .. it's too easy to make a good re-print from at home.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 18, 2011)

xposurepro said:


> We start out by doing all in-studio sales. There are no sneak peeks on a blog or Facebook. They see them during the ordering session and there are no proofs to take home or option for me to upload a gallery somewhere so they can goof around for a month looking at them before ordering. We have minimum purchase requirements based on the type of client session and what session options or add ons were selected. This prevents us from having to worry about somebody coming in and order 5 4x6s then scanning them and never coming back for more. The client is not left alone with their images displayed for them to snap off crappy shots with their cell phones (people will do that). When going over the product line we include the High-Res digital files stating they are $300 each and we clearly emphasize the fact that purchasing these files comes with the legal documentation that is required in order to make prints from the files we provide or if you want to scan the prints you purchase. Note we don't say "Yeah you can print from them" .. they are being clearly educated that legal documentation is required for printing from files *AND for scanning prints*. If they are the type of people who will do it no matter what it doesn't change anything. However, we have educated them on right and wrong and that's all you can do there.
> Give them everything on Facebook and they will print them. In the past we only gave free Facebook pics of the poses that they purchased in their collection and those pics had a huge logo streaming across the bottom. This eliminated the desire to print from them. However, we took it a step further and now low-res files, just like high-res files, are an actual product with a value. This helps to further educate the consumer that digital files are in fact a product and by purchasing low-res files or by not doing so, it either increases our profit or reduces our workload.
> When it comes to updating our online portfolio, this is not done right away. You won't find me posting on the blog .. "Check out these awesome portraits from todays client !!" .. or yesterdays .. or last weeks .. in fact it might be several months down the road before I might post something on the blog or Facebook. This is long after the ordering session and by this point if the client hasn't re-ordered odds are they won't anyway.
> 
> ...



Looking forward to your going out of business sale.  Hope you have some good stuff I can use.

About 1 in 10 people on the entire freaking planet are on facebook.  Something like 800 million users out there.  If you won't provide people pics to share with their friends via social networking, I think you are destined to fail.  We may not like what they do with the images once they get them, but, IMO, it's an essential service at this point.

If you won't offer them, your competition will.


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## naptime (Dec 18, 2011)

in screen printing I often have to provide my customers a proof. They can run with that to a competitor if they like. 

you have to make it difficult or undesirable. 

if your watermark can be cropped, then its not big enough.

straight across the middle, or the most important part of the photo etc. Something that can't be edited out and is just going to look stupid. Otherwise, someone is going to print it and display it.


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## BastiaanImages (Dec 18, 2011)

If you ever see this SIL I would definately talk to her about this. Don't pick a fight just tell her that you saw the image and that normally you'd charge for it because you're a pro-photographer and her method means you lose money. She probably didn't even think of it in this way.

off-topic: I can't image putting a low-res, badly cropped picture on my wall


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## GeorgieGirl (Dec 18, 2011)

rub said:


> I went to a client / friends house for coffee the other day. As we were chatting, I noticed a horribly pixilated crappy framed image from her last session. It was a maternity shoot/family shoot with her bf's sister, husband and kid as well. When she saw me notice the picture she said, oh yeah, sister in law gave me that.
> 
> I said "I'm sorry you have such a poor quality print - SIL must have saved her screen and then cropped it. In the new year we can order you a professional print if you like." It's still upsetting me. They haven't purchased any of the images yet, even though everytime I see them they say they loved them.
> 
> How would you handle the same situation?



I'm not sure that I would consider them a friend any longer after what they just did to *you. *

There are always people who don't think the cost of prints are worth it to them and find ways to take a photo or two and print them for their benefit anyway even if the print is of a diminsihed quality. But if your relationship was one where you considered them a friend; they don't appear to respect you. Yes they think the photos are good, from what I have seen of your work I am sure they were and you have no reason to doubt that.

I think as a phtographer you have to drop this client, and to take it a step further it might be necessary to remove that session from your site so they don't help themselves to any more of your work since you know that they have. You can do all of this without having to have a dialog with them. If they ever do ask where the photos went, you can speak with them about the incident as a professional, and not as a friend. 

:cry:


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 18, 2011)

It wont bother me one bit.  On my portrait session they either pay low session fee and they must buy prints from me, OR buy ALL files from a reasonable price.  Everyone always choose to buy all files.  Really though, how much do you charge for a 4x6? I bet they can only print a 4x6 from a screen capture.  How much money did you lose?  Nothing to be upset about.


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## manaheim (Dec 18, 2011)

I've been of the mind to simply sell digital only and not bother with the prints.  "If you want your pictures, you pay in full and then you get the images."  Done and done.  Not sure how well this would work, but it seems like an easier way to address the whole problem.

I'd be curious what the pros here think about this.

xposurepro's post is educational and alarming.


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## Robin Usagani (Dec 18, 2011)

If it is a portrait session you need to sell ALL or NONE.  If you sell the digital one by one, it will make the price too expensive if they want all the photos, but then again it is too cheap if they only buy a few files and print big prints them self. 

For events photos I do sell the file one by one.



manaheim said:


> I've been of the mind to simply sell digital only and not bother with the prints.  "If you want your pictures, you pay in full and then you get the images."  Done and done.  Not sure how well this would work, but it seems like an easier way to address the whole problem.
> 
> I'd be curious what the pros here think about this.
> 
> xposurepro's post is educational and alarming.


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## xposurepro (Dec 18, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> xposurepro said:
> 
> 
> > We start out by doing all in-studio sales. There are no sneak peeks on a blog or Facebook. They see them during the ordering session and there are no proofs to take home or option for me to upload a gallery somewhere so they can goof around for a month looking at them before ordering. We have minimum purchase requirements based on the type of client session and what session options or add ons were selected. This prevents us from having to worry about somebody coming in and order 5 4x6s then scanning them and never coming back for more. The client is not left alone with their images displayed for them to snap off crappy shots with their cell phones (people will do that). When going over the product line we include the High-Res digital files stating they are $300 each and we clearly emphasize the fact that purchasing these files comes with the legal documentation that is required in order to make prints from the files we provide or if you want to scan the prints you purchase. Note we don't say "Yeah you can print from them" .. they are being clearly educated that legal documentation is required for printing from files *AND for scanning prints*. If they are the type of people who will do it no matter what it doesn't change anything. However, we have educated them on right and wrong and that's all you can do there.
> ...



My competition does offer them .. and they also struggle to make a profit too. I on the other hand don't care about the 800 million people on Facebook who cringe at the thought of our $400 minimum purchase. I prefer shooting the ones who can drop a couple grand on family photos and as I'm swiping their card they just laugh and say Whew I should have been a photographer .. then they go out and tell those in their real world circles about how happy they were with the experience. We realized a long time ago that although social media like Facebook brought us in front of the masses it did not have an effect on bringing in the top-end clients. Those clients are still more influenced by traditional means. They might check us out online before coming in for a consultation but that's not "why" they checked us out. Many of our big spenders make it all the way to session day without ever once looking at us on Facebook or sometimes even our website. They're going purely on real world interactions and influences. In fact this year we have had a major percentage of new clients traveling from a specific area an hour away .. to the point we are considering relocating closer to it as it is also a very high-income location. Interesting enough is that online marketing played an extremely little part .. they came through traditional loyalty & referral programs. Facebook is not "the" answer .. it's simply the easy one.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 18, 2011)

Must have been my mistake.  I had looked at your website and all of the threads you have started on this forum.

Definitely did not have you pegged for any sort of high end market.  Obviously, different ends of the market can bare different things.



xposurepro said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > xposurepro said:
> ...


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## KmH (Dec 18, 2011)

nickzou said:


> Hmmm keep us updated should you choose to take further action. I'm kinda curious as to what you can realistically do in this situation.


What we can do here in the US and what you can do in CA is substantially different.

However I note that the OP doesn't show a location in her profile so I am only guessing she is somewhere in the USA.

In Canada, the copyright is owned by whoever commisions the photography, ostensibly the client, u_nless the photographer's contract states otherwise._
Here in the US the photographer owns the copyright, u_nless the photographer's contract states otherwise.
_
Here in the US, the photographer cannot file a copyright infringement action in federal court if the copyright has not been registered with the US copyright office (USC 17 411).

I'd bet the OP has never registered a copyright.

In that case, the OP has no legal leverage, making enforcement of her copyright virtually impossible. Her only legal recourse would be a civil, breach of contract action.

The best way to educate clients is with language in the contract, and then making sure the client is aware of the copyright issues by going over the contract with them.


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## gsgary (Dec 18, 2011)

rub said:


> I should clarify they were taken from the proofing on my website. I use photocart so there is no right click saving so it was a screenshot save.



Take them off your website and see if they say anything


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## imagemaker46 (Dec 18, 2011)

Everything on my site is automatically watermarked, and there is no right click save, but people still use the screen shots and try to remove the watermarks, I have tracked several people down and have worked out deals with them to use low res copies for their web sites and in return they link back to mine. They don't get alot but I get more traffic sent my way.  Unfortuantely you can't stop everyone that is doing this.


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## etnad0 (Dec 18, 2011)

I've been doing web work since I was 15 and there are several good ways to stop photo theft. An upfront deposit is one way. As somenoe else mentioned, you can do something like this:







Most people aren't desperate enough to steal and display this in a frame in their home. Visitors will see that its clearly stolen and the average person doesn't have the photoshop skills to remove the mark without making it look like crap.

As someone else mentioned, disable right click as well. Both the above example and the disable of right click will prevent most thieves. Even if they take a screen shot, again, they would have to invest hours into getting it to look like crap in the end.

A small deposit upfront will ensure you at least make some cash. Even if it's only 20% of the entire purchase. Many companies require deposits for different services, so there shouldn't be any reason you can't require a deposit for your time. If they don't pay for the prints, you still got paid. Just my 2 cents.


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## photo guy (Dec 18, 2011)

Put a large bold watermark on the whole photo to try and help stop this.


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## Big Mike (Dec 19, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> xposurepro said:
> 
> 
> > We start out by doing all in-studio sales. There are no sneak peeks on a blog or Facebook. They see them during the ordering session and there are no proofs to take home or option for me to upload a gallery somewhere so they can goof around for a month looking at them before ordering. We have minimum purchase requirements based on the type of client session and what session options or add ons were selected. This prevents us from having to worry about somebody coming in and order 5 4x6s then scanning them and never coming back for more. The client is not left alone with their images displayed for them to snap off crappy shots with their cell phones (people will do that). When going over the product line we include the High-Res digital files stating they are $300 each and we clearly emphasize the fact that purchasing these files comes with the legal documentation that is required in order to make prints from the files we provide or if you want to scan the prints you purchase. Note we don't say "Yeah you can print from them" .. they are being clearly educated that legal documentation is required for printing from files *AND for scanning prints*. If they are the type of people who will do it no matter what it doesn't change anything. However, we have educated them on right and wrong and that's all you can do there.
> ...


I'll have to disagree with you here.  I think he's got a winning strategy.  It's one thing to cater to the masses (Facebook denizens) but that will lead you to the Wal-mart sales strategy...low cost, high volume (and likely lower quality).  If you target the higher end of the market, you can go with a higher cost, lower volume (you'll need a high quality).  Both ways can make lots of money, but ask yourself if you'd rather work more hours or less?  

And notice that he mentioned that even the low rez files are a product.  So people can still purchase the files and put them on Facebook to share with friends & family...but the way he's set it up, the have already purchased prints or at least they are paying a lot for the files.  

And that leads to another tip for selling digital files.  Many people ask how much they should charge for digital files...and my answer was always to say, 'Charge (at least) as much as you think you would get by keeping the files and selling prints.'  So if your average print sale is $200, you might want to charge $150-$200 for the digital files (and the right to make prints).   So you still make the same profit, but you don't have to make/order the prints.  You might loose out on the occasional large print sale, but it might balance out since you're making up for the ones who would only place a small print order.  
One probably with this though, is that you loose control of the final product.  They might make prints at home, on typewriter paper (or worse, at Wal-mart) and the prints will look crappy.  They'll tell everyone who see them, that you were their photographer.


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## orljustin (Dec 19, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> They'll tell everyone who see them, that you were their photographer.



... which has nothing to do with who the printer was.  I think people are smart enough to separate the two.   But anyhow, I think you overestimate what people will do.  I'm not in the least interested in advertising for you, so I'd be unlikely as hell to say "X was my photographer".  On the other hand, I'm certainly not going to pay $200 for 1 file.  My value on portraiture is about $100 or so an hour, which is a pretty good hourly rate.  2 hours for the shoot time, an hour prep and cleanup and an hour processing.  So, my limit is probably around $500 for a good photo session with all edited images delivered.  If you can't operate on $500 for four hours of work, then you're in the wrong business, or you're not scheduling enough.  I'm not here to pay your retirement because of you overcharging for prints.


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## Big Mike (Dec 19, 2011)

orljustin said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > They'll tell everyone who see them, that you were their photographer.
> ...


I think you're overestimating (some) people.  We are talking about people who will steal low rez images via screen capture, then print those for display in their home.  They probably won't have any interest in advertising for you, but nether will they be quick to take the blame themselves for a poor quality print.


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## mwcfarms (Dec 19, 2011)

orljustin said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > They'll tell everyone who see them, that you were their photographer.
> ...



I'm going to disagree with you here. When you see a piece of artwork an image hanging somewhere you don't ask who was the photographer and who was the printer. People are notoriously lazy and very quick to assume things. If someone tells you that so and so was the photographer do they often say but we got it printed at Costco. Not usually.


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## bennielou (Dec 19, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > xposurepro said:
> ...



That's nice and all, but that hasn't worked for years.  YES, people who sell seminars will tell you that, but people who sell photography know different.  (And by the way, people who sell this way are all pretty much out of business around here, UNLESS they are selling seminars to boost the income.

It just doesn't work anymore.  But I still make great money, because I'm selling quality products on the backend that they CAN'T get.  

The days of golden plunder are over.


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## Kerbouchard (Dec 19, 2011)

Even the High End Market is on Facebook.  Social networking sites are not just for Walmart shoppers.  I think people forget that it is a 'networking' site and if you are shooting high end clients, their network is likely to be high end.  Same for the low end.  To me, it makes more sense to factor that cost directly into your price, post the images to facebook yourself, and tag the client.  The client gets preview files, you get free advertising(with an entire network of people similar to your client), and everybody's happy.

But then again, I don't earn my income from photography.  I just shoot with people that do, and based on the amount of shots I have of the same person being a bridesmaid and a bride, I would have to say I think it's working.  Referrals are a huge part of the business.  Facebook/Google Plus, is just another tool to reach more people in the same demographic as your target market.  Seems like the few times somebody might print a facebook image does not offset the marketing benefit.

Just my .02.



Big Mike said:


> Kerbouchard said:
> 
> 
> > xposurepro said:
> ...


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## bennielou (Dec 19, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Even the High End Market is on Facebook.  Social networking sites are not just for Walmart shoppers.  I think people forget that it is a 'networking' site and if you are shooting high end clients, their network is likely to be high end.  Same for the low end.  To me, it makes more sense to factor that cost directly into your price, post the images to facbook yourself, and tag the client.  The client gets preview files, you get free advertising(with an entire network of people similiar to your client), and everybody's happy.
> 
> But then again, I don't earn my income from photography.  I just shoot with people that do, and based on the amount of shots I have of the same person being a bridesmain and a bride, I would have to say I think it's working.  Referrals are a huge part of the business.  Facebook/Google Plus, is just another tool to reach more people in the same demographic as your target market.  Seems like the few times somebody might print a facebook image does not offset the marketing benefit.
> 
> ...



And that is the honest truth.  I don't sell seminars, and I don't care to.  I do weddings.  And while I watched several friends of mine who did the old type of sales go out of business, I stayed busy doing the 2011 way.

I don't have a day job, or sell actions, of ask you to come to a seminar.  I make money off of word of mouth.  2012 is booked and we just opened 2013.  There is a reason for that.  And I'm not starving, or going out of business to do it.  I changed with the times.  I just charge a lot of money.  And I get it because friends tell friends tell friends on facebook.

I don't know half of my friends on facebook.  I really don't.  But I get people there too.  Because they saw a photo that someone posted.

I'm not waiting around trying to make $100 on an 8x10.  I'm working.  All year long.  And if people want to go out and advertise for me, I say "Yay!"


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## orljustin (Dec 19, 2011)

mwcfarms said:


> I'm going to disagree with you here. When you see a piece of artwork an image hanging somewhere you don't ask who was the photographer and who was the printer. People are notoriously lazy and very quick to assume things. If someone tells you that so and so was the photographer do they often say but we got it printed at Costco. Not usually.



I don't ask anything.  I don't normally stick my nose into other people's business, or decorating choices.  If someone says that "so and so was the photographer", I would think that most people would think that Mr. And So is the photographer, the guy that shoots the image.  Obviously, Mr. And So is not the printer, because a photographer is not a printer, he is the guy that takes pictures.  A printer is the guy that prints them out.  Not too difficult.


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## Big Mike (Dec 19, 2011)

bennielou said:


> I just charge a lot of money.


That was (sort of) my point...in a round about sort of way....I think.

This thread is about what to do when people are stealing your images and printing themselves (without permission).  One way to help prevent or alleviate this problem, is to give/sell them the files.  That does seem to be what everyone wants these days anyway.  So if you are going to do that, you have to find a way to make your money, since your print sales will (most likely) be less.  And of course, the easy way to do that, is just to change a higher price in the first place (the sitting fee or wedding fee etc.)

Or are you tying to say that targeting the high end of the market, is what doesn't work anymore...:scratch:
By charging a lot of money, that's exactly what you're doing.


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## Redeyejedi (Dec 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> This incident describes exactly the problem with providing clients with ANY FORM of images until they have payed handsomely for access to the images that a photographer has been commissioned to create...
> 
> If you "give" clients low-resolution proofs before selling them a package of any type (digital files,prints,canvas prints, or any combination), your profit has been flushed down the toilet in many cases. ANY image is often enough to satisfy some people...even a lo-rez printed screen cap...


thanks for that!  :thumbup:


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## rub (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, there has sure been a lot of interesting and useful information posted here. I was more concerned with how to address the actual client, but preventing the theft is also important. 

A few things I will note.  I charge a $250 session fee which includes one 11x14 print.  There are no digital files included, and clients can either purchase print packages, a la carte prints, digital files, wall art, albums etc.

Both of the clients have indicatedthey will be making purchases soon, but I know both have financial pressure with the holidays here.  

Once I contact her I will let you know her response.


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## EnjoyPhotoSfl (Feb 2, 2012)

bump for update !


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## jowensphoto (Feb 3, 2012)

Don't look now! Zombie thread!


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## dakkon76 (Feb 3, 2012)

I don't charge my friends for services. If they're a good friend, I'll show up to help them move, I'll take pictures of them with their kids and give them the finished files so they can do what they want with them, I'll offer them medical advice without asking for compensation. If they're not that close of a friend, I refer them somewhere else so things don't get complicated. If I considered someone a friend and they wanted to charge me for services, even though I would of course offer to pay them, it would tell me that we weren't as close as I had thought we were.

Moral of the story: avoid doing "business" with friends.

Like others have said: if you value the friendship, then you need to do 3 things to preserve it:

1. Drop it.
2. Accept the fact that you might have been better off not charging them in the first place. Take some of the blame so that you don't hold it against them, which will continue to erode the relationship.
3. Print an 8x10 of the image your friend had displayed and give it to them. Tell them you know things are tight around the holidays and you don't want things to be awkward between the two of you.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 3, 2012)

^^THIS!  (Dakkon.. you are a nicer person than I am!)

i would just send Guido to talk them!


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## aohara2001 (Feb 3, 2012)

When I post proofs to my client gallery I watermark the middle image with a copyright.  This is an unfortunate situation, the best you can do is learn from it and change your proofing method.  You could sue, but that's not worth the friendship.  Just change your future proofs to have a watermark in the MIDDLE of the image.


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## Joey_Ricard (Feb 3, 2012)

aohara2001 said:


> When I post proofs to my client gallery I watermark the middle image with a copyright. This is an unfortunate situation, the best you can do is learn from it and change your proofing method. You could sue, but that's not worth the friendship. Just change your future proofs to have a watermark in the MIDDLE of the image.



Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


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## dakkon76 (Feb 3, 2012)

I have to admit though... if I *had* charged one of my friends for something like this, and they knowingly circumvented me the way this person had... I'd write them off as a piece of sh*t and that would be the end of it   Again... don't put yourself in that kind of situation with people you like. I know a few people that would act like this, and of the few I know I wouldn't say I consider any of them a friend.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 4, 2012)

dakkon76 said:


> I have to admit though... if I *had* charged one of my friends for something like this, and they knowingly circumvented me the way this person had... I'd write them off as a piece of sh*t and that would be the end of it   Again... don't put yourself in that kind of situation with people you like. I know a few people that would act like this, and of the few I know I wouldn't say I consider any of them a friend.



Ahhh.... you are a King fan? (just noticed your sig! Appropriate for this thread! lol! ) Good stuff!


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## raider (Feb 5, 2012)

yes, education - i scare them real good at the contract signing where it states the massive punishments for such activity.


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## DiskoJoe (Feb 6, 2012)

rub said:


> I went to a client / friends house for coffee the other day. As we were chatting, I noticed a horribly pixilated crappy framed image from her last session. It was a maternity shoot/family shoot with her bf's sister, husband and kid as well. When she saw me notice the picture she said, oh yeah, sister in law gave me that.
> 
> I said "I'm sorry you have such a poor quality print - SIL must have saved her screen and then cropped it. In the new year we can order you a professional print if you like." It's still upsetting me. They haven't purchased any of the images yet, even though everytime I see them they say they loved them.
> 
> How would you handle the same situation?



watermark across the face! Print that *****!


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## Stickymoose (Sep 7, 2014)

I work in a photo lab, it is frustrating, and hard to stop these people. Our lab won't give copies of anything without a release form.people will bring in water marked, Bella baby, or pixelated stuff to try and print, and we end up fighting over it. Some photographers don't understand that they have to give written permission to clients to print legally.


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