# Difficult client wants all unedited photos... please help



## J.May

Hello,

I'm having trouble with a difficult client and really could use some advice. Sorry this post is so long!

I took family photos for someone 2 weeks ago. 7 adults and a toddler. I presented her with 80 high resolution digital images and her and the family loved them. However, she messaged me later that day asking if she could get copies of all of the photos, even the untouched ones. I kindly explained that I do not give out unedited photos because my finished product is a reflection of my work and my name. I pick the best photos and edit those and that is what she has received. She understood that but said they were just hoping for more group shots because they weren't thrilled with the ones they received. I suggested that in that case, I will post the unedited group shots on an online album where she can view them and let me know which ones she would like me to edit. I posted 47 group shots and she replied saying they love them all and would like them all touched up.
I responded that she is welcome to pick her top 10 and I will edit those for her, but any more will be an extra charge. That's when things went really downhill!

She said, "We would like to see all the unedited photos you took during our shoot so we can comb through those to see if we find those suitable for our purposes. This way we can determine what shots we further want to develop. We would like to have a copy of all prints for our album, edited or not, taken during our photoshoot."

I replied, "Here is what I can offer you. I can meet you and you can have a viewing of all photos taken during your shoot. During the viewing you can chose which additional photos you would like.
As you've already received 80 finished photos which were included in your shoot, additional photos will be $3 each for high resolution digital copies. The viewing itself will be $100. 
Just to clarify again, you are welcome to see the unedited versions but I do not give these out as I only want my finished product reflecting my work. You absolutely can choose as many as you like to be edited. As previously promised, I will gladly throw in the 10 more photos at no extra charge."

She said, "I am not happy with this at all. On your website you say you offer ALL photos taken. We would like al of them. Unedited. We found lots of pics we love that you took. We want the rest.
We don't want them touched up but I think we deserve to have all pictures you took. It does not reflect your work giving us the photos. You with holding the pictures isn't honouring your commitment to what you put on your website. 
I hope that you will reconsider and honour your website at the time we booked to have our photos taken. I did screen shot your website and your website advertised copies of all images enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images watermark free for you to display as you like. I noticed you have altered your website this evening to define the number of photos offered. We are only asking for what we paid for based on what you advertised at the time. If you choose not to honour your advertised commitment, we will have a discussion to make on our end."

Granted, on my website it very unfortunately said "includes your photo session and enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images, watermark free." 

It seems common sense that this does not mean several hundred photos including those of people picking their ears. However, I have no idea how to respond or where to go from here. My saving grace is that it did say "enhanced images" so I am not obliged to give her the unedited versions. But I am still left with 400 raw files from the shoot. Please help.


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## vintagesnaps

Not sure about this... why did you ever put that on your website? Live and learn on that I guess. I hate to say it but it sounds like you're obligated to provide 'all' the photos, although I don't know how a client would know exactly how many you took to know if 'all' of them were being provided. I don't know why you took so many of one family portrait session but it seems like the client realized you took way more than you provided.

Maybe ask about what exactly she's looking for, and I guess decide whether to give her edited or unedited photos, then try to give her more photos that will be what she's looking for (whatever that may be). I don't get what anyone would do with 47 photos of the same group of people, much less still want more, but maybe try to find out specifically what she's looking for.


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## astroNikon

Last time someone was pushy to me I provided one more photo in which they gave a really bad facial expression and adjusted the colors opposite what they should be.  And I repeated I only provide the quality photos. I didn't get an argument after that.

If you state on your website you give all then that is your product. How in the world did you take 47 group shots?  Is this a keep the shutter button down on continuous or something?


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## weepete

What does your contract say you will provide?


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## Advanced Photo

The way you worded it here you are obligated to enhance and provide copies of all images from the shoot.
Even if they don't know how many that is, you do. So you need to decide how much your word is worth to you.
Personally, I would just enhance all images from this shoot and give them to them. I would do groups of images in batch process for things like color correction and such as needed. I'd also immediately change the wording to something like up to x number of enhanced images you select will be provided...

Your other option is to explain the situation and your mistake in word selection and see how she takes it. Maybe let her look through all the unretouched photos and select a couple to replace a couple she didn't like as much. Or offer to reshoot a couple poses they are looking for.

I'd also refine my shooting style to only click the shutter when the shot is ready to take, not when someone is picking  their ear. Granted you can't always anticipate a blink, but by communicating when the shot is going to happen people can control those blinks better.


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## OGsPhotography

Reasonable person test IMO means only all images that you decide to keep as the photographer to provide to the client.

Why do the photos ( non keepers) even exist if you wont give them? They, non keepers ( nose picking,  blinkies, duplicate poses etc), should be deleted by now. 

Just give the photos and save face at this point , probably appologize too. Enhance how you see fit, its your own model so dont fight with the customer, you will never ever win.

Try to learn something each session without having to piss of the customer and you'll have much better "luck" with customers in the future.


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## Designer

1. This reinforces my decision to never become a professional photographer.

2. You should be at least as resolute as your contract, maybe even more so.


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## petrochemist

IMO the wording on your website obligates you to supply all the photos. I suspect the client knew this was not intended, which is why they kept a screen shot of your website. 

Recheck your website for other ambiguous phases that might remain then mark it down to experience.


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## KmH

J.May said:


> Granted, on my website it very unfortunately said "includes your photo session and enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images, watermark free."


You give her all the photos - and you have to "enhance" all of them too.
At no additional charge.
The client isn't being difficult.

Own your mistakes. Learn from them. Don't repeat them.

I agree with AP's final comment regarding "refining your shooting style".


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## sashbar

J.May said:


> Granted, on my website it very unfortunately said "includes your photo session and enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images, watermark free."
> 
> It seems common sense that this does not mean several hundred photos including those of people picking their ears.



I actually think there is nothing wrong with your client, she is just asking for what you have so generously offered on your website.  The way you have put it means that you promise to keep ALL images taken during the session, enhance it and provide to the customer. That means you can not even delete any images taken during the session (because by doing so you will not be unable to provide "digital copies of all images"). 
I think you need to carefully check what you have put on your website and your contracts or even better consult a professional.
Your "common sense" approach does not work with contractual obligations. On the part of your client the "common sense" would be to get as many photos for her/his money as possible. And in your case, if the contract does not state otherwise, it means - all of it.  If you have a contract, signed by the customer, that stipulates a particular number of images, then it is a completely different situation.


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## J.May

Thanks guys. Definitely some really hard lessons have been learned! And yes, I often wonder how the heck I ended up with so many photos. I'm still trigger happy and it's a learning process, that's for sure. I immediately reworded my website to say X number of photos. 

Guess I'll get editing.... thank you again.


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## pixmedic

Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones


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## Advanced Photo

pixmedic said:


> Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones


I'd never lie to a client or anyone else for that matter. It just isn't worth it. Your word as a man (human) is really all you have and  your dignity is worth a lot more than anything else you will ever have. We have enough liars, we call them lawyers politicians and other such 'professionals'. Lol


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## pixmedic

Advanced Photo said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones
> 
> 
> 
> I'd never lie to a client or anyone else for that matter. It just isn't worth it. Your word as a man (human) is really all you have and  your dignity is worth a lot more than anything else you will ever have. We have enough liars, we call them lawyers politicians and other such 'professionals'. Lol
Click to expand...


If there's anything I've learned from watching House.....its everyone lies.


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## Advanced Photo

pixmedic said:


> Advanced Photo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones
> 
> 
> 
> I'd never lie to a client or anyone else for that matter. It just isn't worth it. Your word as a man (human) is really all you have and  your dignity is worth a lot more than anything else you will ever have. We have enough liars, we call them lawyers politicians and other such 'professionals'. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If there's anything I've learned from watching House.....its everyone lies.
Click to expand...

That's fiction. I don't mind lies that help othet people in life or keep from hurting their feelings. I dont think its evil to say good job when someone tries hard but did a crappy job. I hate deceit used to cheat others, to hide mistakes and for personal  gain at the expense of others.
Some people don't get that, but it's important to me, my family and something my kids have to learn too.
If you dislike liars then don't be one.


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## astroNikon

J.May said:


> Thanks guys. Definitely some really hard lessons have been learned! And yes, I often wonder how the heck I ended up with so many photos. I'm still trigger happy and it's a learning process, that's for sure. I immediately reworded my website to say X number of photos.
> 
> Guess I'll get editing.... thank you again.


My first soccer game I shot I took over 1,000 photos.  The 2nd one about 500  and it steadily dropped from there as I watched more for the "action" shots.  Now I shoot about 300 in general.

The first photo shoot I did I shot around 250 shots.  Later ones maybe 50.  You learn to know when to take a shot and you have to manage the shot and don't allow the people to manage the photoshoot.  ie, being bossy helps.


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## tirediron

Agree, you're on the hook for "all photos".


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## KmH

pixmedic said:


> Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones


IMO, that is very bad advice if you didn't actually delete the other files.


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## Overread

Certain methods also generate more waste than others; for example you might take a short burst of photos if doing a group shot; so that you can ensure everyone has their eyes open at the same time (or you've got an option to clone eyes from one photo to the other should someone have them shut in every photo). 

Small bursts often give the impression that you're taking LOADS of photos; but when most are going to be either duplicate or dumped its not an issue


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## Peeb

pixmedic said:


> Tell them you deleted the other files after you delivered the final edited ones


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## dennybeall

Gotcha! You shot yourself in both feet and then tried to walk to Calgary.
First!!! Fix the website.
Then delete all the really bad pictures. Now very quickly with minimal effort, work on the remainder.
Copy them to a 3 1/4 inch diskette and hand it to them. Not your fault they don't have a drive to read the disc.


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## john.margetts

dennybeall said:


> Gotcha! You shot yourself in both feet and then tried to walk to Calgary.
> First!!! Fix the website.
> Then delete all the really bad pictures. Now very quickly with minimal effort, work on the remainder.
> Copy them to a 3 1/4 inch diskette and hand it to them. Not your fault they don't have a drive to read the disc.


How many images can you fit on a floppy? Less than one, I would have thought.


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## Scatterbrained

I'm still agog at the 400 images from a portrait session.  Or that you delivered so many group shots. 
The fact that you initially delivered 80 images of a shoot involving 8 people.  Maybe I'm out of the loop here but that just seems like overkill to me.


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## Peeb

john.margetts said:


> dennybeall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha! You shot yourself in both feet and then tried to walk to Calgary.
> First!!! Fix the website.
> Then delete all the really bad pictures. Now very quickly with minimal effort, work on the remainder.
> Copy them to a 3 1/4 inch diskette and hand it to them. Not your fault they don't have a drive to read the disc.
> 
> 
> 
> How many images can you fit on a floppy? Less than one, I would have thought.
Click to expand...

Either 720 kb or 1.44mb on a 3.5 floppy


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## tirediron

Scatterbrained said:


> I'm still agog at the 400 images from a portrait session.  Or that you delivered so many group shots.
> The fact that you initially delivered 80 images of a shoot involving 8 people.  Maybe I'm out of the loop here but that just seems like overkill to me.


Missed that...  wow...  that's a LOT of images from a single session.  Unless there are a huge multitude of poses a group of eight people should be wrapped up in less than a dozen images.  As an example, I recently did a milestone birthday event for a long-time client's mother.  There were about 20 close family members.  Between the group shot of everyone and the sub-groups (a total of nine) I think I shot about 60 images and delivered around 35 proofs.


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## petrochemist

dennybeall said:


> Then delete all the really bad pictures. Now very quickly with minimal effort, work on the remainder.
> Copy them to a 3 1/4 inch diskette and hand it to them. Not your fault they don't have a drive to read the disc.



If you delete ANY it will show clearly in the filenames leaving them with a claim for their money back...
Capacity for a diskette would be woefully inadequate - & you'd need to fit a drive yourself. Unless you have something like an old Jazz drive lying around with spare cartridges making the physical media effectively useless is going to cost you a fortune.
Easier to save them as an unusual digital format (the more proprietary the better) & supply on a several DVDs or CDs.  I can't help feeling that even that will be extra work just for spite.


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## tirediron

I'm honestly not understanding why this is so complicated.  The OP made a promise to the clients; albeit perhaps an unintentional one, but a promise nonetheless.  There are two options:  (1)  Ignore the client's request and suffer; or (2) honour your promise and take the time & work it will cost you as a lesson well learned!  This could be the make or break point for a fledgling business, and how you handle this client may well determine your future.  A satisfied client will tell a few people.  A dissatisfied client will tell everyone he/she knows!   Suck it up and do the right thing.


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## KmH

Scatterbrained said:


> The fact that you initially delivered 80 images of a shoot involving 8 people.  . . .  just seems like overkill to me.


I agree. Massive.
And that is way too common today. Treating, and pricing, retail photos like they are a commodity instead of treating them like the luxury item they actually are.
Doing so kills the value of the photographer's work, and worse, it undermines the value of every retail photographer's work.


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## Overread

Delivering a high number is also very demanding on the photographer and I bet of those 80 there's a fair few repeats or shots that are just "soso". Thing is that many people grade a photographer on how much product they get; and for those who are not "arty" minded the value is weighted on the number of shots and little else (they've just no other measuring stick).

I would adjust your pricing and structure to certainly avoid "delivering all" and you could even leave out ANY mention of how many shots. Instead focus on the idea of them paying to get a session with photos; focus on the quality (5 great shots looks better than those same shots within a batch of 30 average shots) and on the overall delivery of the product (prints - yes everyone wants shots for facebook too but price for prints and then throw in digital on top - either as an extra or built into the price for the print*)



*prints cost X and you get a free photo processed for the internet too (ergo reduced size; optimised for facebook; copyright data in the EXIF*; set the dpi to a low value**)

*just set your camera to auto attach this info as default
** has no effect on web quality just on any attempted print quality


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## table1349

Looks like the mistake is yours.  I would honor what was promised, to the letter of what was promised.  Without seeing exactly what your wording is it is hard to advise beyond that.  If it promised prints then you are in for an expense.  If it only promised the images then give them the images.  If you shot in raw give them raw.  If in jpg then give them that.  Give them exactly what is promised.  

I never offered photos for non commercial customers, I only offered prints.   Photos were far more expensive than prints.


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## Piccell

tirediron said:


> I'm honestly not understanding why this is so complicated.  The OP made a promise to the clients; albeit perhaps an unintentional one, but a promise nonetheless.  There are two options:  (1)  Ignore the client's request and suffer; or (2)* honour your promise and take the time & work it will cost you as a lesson well learned!  This could be the make or break point for a fledgling business, and how you handle this client may well determine your future.  A satisfied client will tell a few people.  A dissatisfied client will tell everyone he/she knows!   Suck it up and do the right thing.*


THIS^^^^

I cannot fathom anyone, professional or not, advising a professional photographer to lie to a client and in effect steal from them what was promised and therefore theirs by right.
Very unethical. You only have one choice as I see it, Complete the contract you entered into to the satisfaction of all parties.


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## Dave442

In this case I would deliver them and move on. 
You do have the option to enhance how you want. Your website apparently said, "all images enhanced" so they can take it to mean you will supply every shot enhanced, not just the shots you selected and enhanced.  

Many have noted on here that many clients often love a shot that you would never select. Put it on them to go through the other 400 shots to their hearts content. While I would like to say to enhance in B&W or such, the best option right now is probably just a basic preset applied to all the extra shots.


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## dennybeall

I was not being serious but if you resize the shots after PP you can fit quite a few on a 3 1/4inch floppy.


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## The_Traveler

I suggest you not lie or in any way fiddle your way out of the word of your contract.
Don't give them reduced size or crazy formats.
That will certainly backfire badly in some way when your clients realize they've been tricked.

Own up to your mistake, tell them you'll honor your promise and do so.
Give them nothing to whine or complain about because they would be right.


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## petrochemist

dennybeall said:


> I was not being serious but if you resize the shots after PP you can fit quite a few on a 3 1/4inch floppy.


Resized versions that would fit on a floppy would not class as 'high resolution'.


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## PersistentNomad

I totally agree about not indicating a specific number that you will deliver, because then you might come across a session where you don't get that many usable shots, causing another headache. 

For the crossover people from another thread this will be familiar, but I also have been grappling with this "how many of what do I deliver" question. With the clients I've already done consults with, I let them know that they will receive an amount commensurate to documenting the day. For weddings, it's generally going to be a few hundred depending on how long I was there and what all they had going on. But, in the contract, I have a clause saying the the amount of delivered images is at the sole discretion of the photographer.


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## The_Traveler

This may not be the overwhelming edit job you think.  If you use Lightroom, you can edit one and then select a set to repeat the edits (synchronizing) in the Library module.  
If you need more help just ask.


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## jcdeboever

I like dogs more than people...


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## PersistentNomad

@The_Traveler   Not to totally derail this conversation, but I always have trouble getting the sync to work. Most of the time what ends up happening is the edited file reverts while the others don't change. Am I missing something? Instead what I've been doing is copy/pasting the history (found on the bottom left while in develop mode).


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## The_Traveler

It is a bit non- intuitive but it works.
Select the one with the edits, then add the others to the selection.
I have always edited the first one in the set, then use shift left click on the last in the set to select the rest.
The initial one, the edited one, will have a slightly slightly deeper color.
Then do the sync and you can actually see LR step through the files adding the edits.
LR is doing essentially what you did, pasting all the edits into each xmp.


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## astroNikon

I love the sync edit
As Traveler states you have to select the main one first
Then select one or multiple after that in any manner then sync with your sync  selections.  Works great and saves a lot of time.


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## ClickAddict

I don't use sync, I use copy and paste (Ctrl-Shift-C / Ctrl-Shift-V) for photos in the same set (Color correction / white balance...) and then go adjust individually as needed (skin retouching...) From what I've read it appears to work pretty much the same as sync, but seems more intuitive (Copy from one, paste onto others.)


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## PersistentNomad

Thanks guys, I'll have to try it again later. It's possible that I wasn't selecting the edited one first and that's why it wasn't working for me.


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## astroNikon

PersistentNomad said:


> Thanks guys, I'll have to try it again later. It's possible that I wasn't selecting the edited one first and that's why it wasn't working for me.


Here's a list of available methods to do this ==> 5 Different Syncing Methods to Cut Down Workflow in Lightroom 4

There's a couple more ways I've read in the past but this will give you the flexibility that you want.


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## Frank F.

I feel deeply with you, because I know how difficult things can get if a customer was not clear on what he was buying in the beginning.

Earlier I thought this was the customers fault mostly, but then I had to learn the hard way, that it is all about the wording and the wording should be done by an expert in imaging rights, and educated lawyer of the country you operate in.

Then these terms of service should also be communmicated to the future customer before signing the contract.

Later changes or differing expectations of the participants are nearly impossible to communicate and will nearly always lead to conflict.

I know that is a lot of money and work and I know in a perfect world it should be much easier, yet we do not live in a perfect world, so we have to adapt.

Good luck this time & better luck with better preparation next time.

Frank

PS: After deleting the "picking the ear" shots I give my clients all camera JPEGs unedited in a seperate folder plus the amout of edits as many as written in the contract in another folder. All burned to DVD which is the product. I deliver professional paper prints on top if customer wish is for good prints, but I know that many customers are happy with bad prints from the cheapo drug store round the corner. That is their business.


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## sscarmack

Desaturate -100
Exposure -100
Contrast -100


Here are your 'unedited' photos that require special software to read and edit, enjoy.


LOL


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## Braineack

I had a customer that wanted the same, so I saved them all out as medium quality jpgs at 1024px.

she then wrote:



> you definitely picked out the best ones. there are some (below) that i think are just fun if you wanted to play with a few. thank you for giving us a chance to see all of them


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## SquarePeg

sscarmack said:


> Desaturate -100
> Exposure -100
> Contrast -100
> 
> 
> Here are your 'unedited' photos that require special software to read and edit, enjoy.



My reading of what was on the website is that the offer was for edited copies of all the photos.

"includes your photo session and enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images, watermark free."


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## sscarmack

SquarePeg said:


> sscarmack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Desaturate -100
> Exposure -100
> Contrast -100
> 
> 
> Here are your 'unedited' photos that require special software to read and edit, enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My reading of what was on the website is that the offer was for edited copies of all the photos.
> 
> "includes your photo session and enhanced high resolution digital copies of all images, watermark free."
Click to expand...


Correct, the wording "enhanced", states altered, meaning edited.


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## john.margetts

sscarmack said:


> Correct, the wording "enhanced", states altered, meaning edited.


 meaning improved, not just edited.


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## ndancona

Boost the exposure on all the images to the point of them almost being completely blown out and give them to her this way.  Explain that you purposely shoot this way with editing in mind as it helps bring back the exposure and retain detail in the shadows.  Say it's a common photographers trick and for this reason the undedited images are useless to view as they need to be developed.  

That's sarcasm......before anyone attacks me!

On a more serious note.  The client has seen your best work in the images you delivered so first impressions have been made.  I don't think she will judge you from what you show her now.  Deliver everything and move on.


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## Psytrox

As OP has pointed out himself, he has offered his client:

- ALL photographs
- ENHANCED
- High resolution
- No watermark

Client may have asked for unedited photographs, giving him/her these photo's will most likely hurt you more than anything. Not fulfilling your clients expectations will also hurt you.

As tempting it is to try and screw the client over, it is more likely to come back and bite you in the ass. My best advice to you is to fulfill your contract, as you promised. 

Batch edit your photographs, export in high quality, cry yourself to sleep, and learn from your epic mistake!


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## Frank F.

1) Sit with the client, beverage of you choice, 
2) find a solution for now
3) revamp business model and wording.


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## Drive-By-Shooter

Tons of good advice here. follow Psytrox, but I suggest asking her to sign an acknowledgment that you are delivering pics that did not make your cut, and that they are unedited which was against what you tried to convey, that you are spending a lot of time at a financial loss to you to meet her request and she should not disclose this difficulty/misunderstanding.  seems like a reasonable request prior to delivery to protect you, a bit.


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