# New special :)



## YoungPhotoGirl (Jun 11, 2014)

Trying to raise customer base again and slowly gain more customers in Boudoir.


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## Designer (Jun 11, 2014)

Why are you bouncing from being overwhelmed to offering a special?

Maybe what you need is a solid business plan.


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## YoungPhotoGirl (Jun 11, 2014)

Designer said:


> Why are you bouncing from being overwhelmed to offering a special?
> 
> Maybe what you need is a solid business plan.


Because as I said I took a years break. I have a 3 1/2 year old to consider, and its actually really hard to continue business if your not actually doing any work.
If you don't want to give me advice that's fine, my business plan was perfect for me to have been so successful I am mostly asking of those who have any experience with coming back into the industry after a break, because its different than starting fresh


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## Braineack (Jun 12, 2014)

I cant imagine the effort being worth it at $40 a pop.  I started having a hard time spending 2-3 hours making $175 a pop with a huge line of customers demanding a product from me.


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## Steve5D (Jun 12, 2014)

YoungPhotoGirl said:


> ..its actually really hard to continue business if your not actually doing any work.



I don't understand this.

You said you were overwhelmed. Perhaps Designer was assuming you were overwhelmed with work. That's certainly the assumption I made. If that's the case, your comment about being able to continue to do business while not doing any work is confusing. You _were _working, yes?

Was it your personal life that overwhelmed you? That would be perfectly reasonable; it happens, especially with kidlets...



> If you don't want to give me advice that's fine, my business plan was perfect for me to have been so successful I am mostly asking of those who have any experience with coming back into the industry after a break, because its different than starting fresh



I think what Designer was saying is that if you were so successful, and  now have to offer an extremely low price for a boudoir shoot, then maybe  your business plan was good only for the short term and, therefore, may  not have been a very good plan to begin with. The market hasn't changed  so much that your old successful business plan would now be obsolete.  Why not just go back to adhering to it?

If coming back after a break is different, the only difference lies in the fact that you now have experience, where you didn't when you first started. Otherwise, coming back after a long break is very much like starting anew.

There's a very basic tenet when it comes to sales: It's always easy to lower your prices, but never easy to raise them. If you had a reputation for doing this type of shoot for, say, $100.00, and now you're doing it for less than half that, the odds are good that you will never be able to _successfully _raise your price back to that $100.00 price point.

That's something to strongly consider...


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jun 12, 2014)

How long are the mini sessions supposed to last? Do you have to rent something out to do this? Are you using the same location for all of the clients or are you traveling to each one's homes? 
I don't see anything wrong with doing a mini special, about 2 times a year I throw a mini session weekend. Hosted at a local park close to my home offering 8-12 images on a cd, 20min worth of shooting time at $40 a session (max. 4 people in a session) it's a good way to keep your faithful clients coming back for a short session and gives new potential clients a reason to try you out without the fear of losing a big bulk of change down the drain. Also, because it is one venue I just pack a lunch and I park myself there for 6 hours, I don't really lose any money doing things this way. In fact I pull in quite a bit for a mini shoot day and with the subjects changing every 20min, I'm not getting bored.


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm thinking along the same lines as Steve and some of the others, that whether for someone starting out or for you getting back into photography, a business plan might be a good idea. edit - After rereading your posts, I'm not understanding why you're saying your past business plan was perfect but now you seem to be trying to figure out how best to proceed; maybe you could use a plan for that. How and where did you market yourself before that was so successful? would some of the same things still work? 

If you've already been successful it may not be a good idea to drop rates too much - customers might wonder why the boudoir sessions are so inexpensive when their portrait or family sessions cost more. If boudoir is a new area you're starting maybe it would be better to offer a special for a shorter time period; this seems like you'd be doing these sessions most of the summer and not making much at it.

American Society of Media Photographers has resources available to professional photographers. I'm not sure what might apply in your country.


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## Derrel (Jun 12, 2014)

I will not even uncap a lens for $40. I just bought a full tank of gasoline for my small American car. Cost me $50.76. Yesterday I spent $139 in the grocery store. I can't imagine why you're offering a $40 boudoir special. That's just so, so very low-priced unless you're selling prints later in one-on-one proof viewing and direct, person-to-person sales sessions. $40 will not even buy a tank of fuel. I "get" the idea of trying to raise customer base, but only at a price point that doesn't devalue your work, or your reputation. To me, here in the USA, when I see a $40-$50 session fee + CD of images price quoted, I immediately think of Facebook fauxtographers with one camera, one zoom lens, natural-light only, and everything shot horizontally. A $40 session WITH images just seems to me to have a very low "perceived value".

My experience is that selling PERSON-to-PERSON is the only consistently reliable way to really realize the sales potential of photos. I worked as a photographer where clients were shown proofs projected BIG, and we sold a lot of high-dollar canvases. We averaged $17,000 to $24,000 in sales per WEEK that way. Every week. I just do not get the $40 AND the pictures concept at all.


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## tirediron (Jun 12, 2014)

I have to agree with Derrel - I could maybe, just maybe buy off on it if  you were offering just a $40 session fee, but even then, that seems  awfully low.  While I have exactly zero experience in boudoire work, my  immediate thought is that this is not a genre which lends itself to  "mini-sessions".  To me, these are family in the park, etc, but to do  boudoire, I think you should allow time - your clients are going to care  what they look like, and even just moving around on a bed or couch  could mess up hair which will take 10-15 minutes to sort out.  To be  quite frank, this whole thing is something I would file under "Bad  plan".  

Edited to add:  Oh, and I would bin that "worried  about your body shape" You want to make this positive and  fun, NOT give the client something to worry about that they may not have even thought of!


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## pixmedic (Jun 12, 2014)

the cheapest we have ever done what could be called a "mini session" was $150. 
lasted about an hour, and the client got 15 images on disk. 
That deal was for a coworker. (one of my supervisors)

maybe..._*maybe*_...if someone called and had 10 people lined up that only wanted, say, 5 images on disk...and they would all use the same backdrop and lighting scheme...
i could probably work them out a deal like $50 a person or something like that. probably only 15-20 minutes of shooting for each person. 

Now, im not saying you _*shouldn't *_do your sessions cheaper. It really doesn't bother me either way. I am a firm believer that if I am not willing to shoot at a certain price point, I have no right to complain about someone who does, because their clients arent clients i would have taken anyway if they weren't willing or able to pay more money. 

If you can line up a bunch of people for same day shooting, then you will probably find that you have made some money, even after expenses like gas, time, editing, etc etc. 
The last bit of wisdom i will leave  you with is this....If the big fish arent willing to shoot below a certain price, then that just opens up a market for people that are. 
The argument of "well, if the people shooting cheap weren't doing it, those clients would _*have*_ to pay more for us to do their pictures" is the biggest load of bullmess you will ever hear. Plenty of people simply _*don't *_have the money, and many "Pro" photographers would rather see those people have _*zero *_pictures, than stomach another photographer doing it cheap. 

I had a point in all of that mess somewhere...I think.
It was probably something pretty deep and philosophical about forging your own destiny, and not letting other people drag you down...
Im sure you got it. Just pretend like it was helpful.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 12, 2014)

My guess would be that the finance side of this business is being supported by another family income which is why the fee can be so low.  

Establishing a solid photographic business is tough these days, walking away from one and then trying to re-build it is the same as starting over.  I would assume that client base in the boudoir business would be similar to the wedding business, basically one off shoots, so there wouldn't be the opportunity of contacting any former clients with the new deal.  In other fields of photography, if a person takes a year off, their former clients quickly find replacements and rebuilding is just the same as starting over.  Good luck trying to get it back, but these days, you walk away from a business, you have to work harder to get it back. People just assume that you quit for good.


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## Steve5D (Jun 12, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Edited to add:  Oh, and I would bin that "worried  about your body shape" You want to make this positive and  fun, NOT give the client something to worry about that they may not have even thought of!



I had the exact same thought...


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## pixmedic (Jun 12, 2014)

I think nowadays, the number of people whose _*sole*_ income is photography is rare. (and getting smaller)
even  photographers that are doing "well" in the business very often have  other jobs for things like health insurance, 401k's, and any number of  other benefits that you might not get being self employed. Plus, photography is one of those job types that lends well to being a second job since often times you can make your own schedule. (to some extent) it is easier to work around an existing schedule. 

I  really don't understand why there is this stigma placed on part time  photographers. Why is it any different than having any other part time  job to supplement income?
I have RN friends that moonlight as a  Paramedic a few days a month for extra money. Are they any less of a  paramedic because it is not their "main" profession?
Would you refuse to buy a house from a part time real estate agent if the house and the price were right?


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## tirediron (Jun 12, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> I think nowadays, the number of people whose _*sole*_ income is photography is rare. (and getting smaller)
> even  photographers that are doing "well" in the business very often have  other jobs for things like health insurance, 401k's, and any number of  other benefits that you might not get being self employed. Plus, photography is one of those job types that lends well to being a second job since often times you can make your own schedule. (to some extent) it is easier to work around an existing schedule.
> 
> I  really don't understand why there is this stigma placed on part time  photographers. Why is it any different than having any other part time  job to supplement income?
> ...


^^ This! ^^  It's not about how often you do it, it's about how WELL you do it.


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## Braineack (Jun 12, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> I think nowadays, the number of people whose _*sole*_ income is photography is rare. (and getting smaller)
> even  photographers that are doing "well" in the business very often have  other jobs for things like health insurance, 401k's, and any number of  other benefits that you might not get being self employed.




Well now, people can choose to stay at home and take pictures...


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 12, 2014)

I really don't care anymore if someone has a full time job and is also shooting. What pisses me off are the ones that are telling me how to run my business when I know full well that they couldn't make a living at it if they quit their full time jobs.  I know a few guys in town that had full time jobs, bought all the best gear and spent time undercutting the market, they were pretty good photographers as well.  Funny thing, when they lost their well paying full time jobs, they could no longer afford to undercut, they couldn't afford to buy new gear, and they couldn't make it as freelancers.  I felt really sorry for them, but that feeling passed 30 seconds later.  One of them had the nerve to tell me that he couldn't stand the guys that are undercutting freelancers, I didn't say a word.

My wife has always supported what I do, she pays a lot of the bills. My parents were the same. My Dad traveled the world shooting and my mother worked to pay the bills when times were slow. There was a period of 11 years where I was the sole provider, and it wasn't always easy.


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## robbins.photo (Jun 12, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> YoungPhotoGirl said:
> 
> 
> > ..its actually really hard to continue business if your not actually doing any work.
> ...



Well, not a pro photographer myself mind you - but from what I understand a big part of the business is from referrals.  If you do a shoot for on client at $50 and then they refer someone I doubt the person they referred will be too keen on being ask to pay $150 for the same service.  Just a thought, but I can't imagine that would go over all that well.


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## robbins.photo (Jun 12, 2014)

pixmedic said:


> I have RN friends that moonlight as a Paramedic a few days a month for extra money. Are they any less of a paramedic because it is not their "main" profession?



Absolutely.  When the ambulance shoes up the last thing in the world I want is someone with more medical training than what your average paramedic has - in fact I try to wait until I know that I'm dealing with the guys that got their degree's mail order from Guatemala... lol



> Would you refuse to buy a house from a part time real estate agent if the house and the price were right?



If they also worked part time as a paramedic - heck yes I'd refuse to buy from them.  Those guys are nuts.  Lol


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## ruggedshutter (Jun 13, 2014)

Why is everyone so hung up on her pricing?  She lives in New Zealand and her pricing structure may fit her market better than $150 or what ever you think she should be charging.  She's trying to get back into the market and sometimes you have to take lower paying jobs to get the experience and name out there.  She even asked in her beginning thread not to critique it on her pricing.

With that said, OP, you had a couple of images on your ad that looked almost identical with different models.  If you have enough material, maybe you can swap a couple out that are using similar poses.  You want it to look like a custom photo session.  I don't recall seeing your studio name on the ad.  That should be big and large.  Price shouldn't be the largest print on the page.  You want them to remember your studio name and not just the price.

I can relate on coming back after a long break.  I have been out of the wedding business for 9 years and I also moved 700+ miles since then.  Not knowing a lot of people in the area makes it difficult as well.  Hang in there, things will improve if you keep at it.


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## Steve5D (Jun 13, 2014)

I think this one is done.

The OP came back last night and removed the image of her "special". My guess is she didn't like what she was reading here, so she bailed.

She's certainly not the first to do that, and she sure as Hell won't be the last...


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## terri (Jun 13, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> I think this one is done.
> 
> The OP came back last night and removed the image of her "special". My guess is she didn't like what she was reading here, so she bailed.
> 
> She's certainly not the first to do that, and she sure as Hell won't be the last...



Presumptuous comment, as well as several others here.   There is more than a whiff here of the usual stench that rises from bashing that perceived terror of photography, the Mom With a Camera.    



> Well, not a pro photographer myself mind you - but from what I  understand a big part of the business is from referrals.  If you do a  shoot for on client at $50 and then they refer someone I doubt the  person they referred will be too keen on being ask to pay $150 for the  same service.  Just a thought, but I can't imagine that would go over  all that well.



It was a "special" - a special!!   Meaning, you snooze you lose.   Are you going to be insulted and stomp out of a restaurant if you miss out on the breakfast special?    :er:     If you know the food is good you'll sit down and order and pay the regular price.    Plus, the OP clearly stated in her first post that her regular prices were still in effect for all other portrait sessions - this was a "boudoir special" clearly meant to drum up word of mouth.    That was part of her business plan - to run a special while wading back in.    

She also stated clearly in her first post that she had had more work than she could handle last year, and was overwhelmed by it...she backed off and turned her attention to her toddler for a year.   So what?   

What I find offensive here is that many of you have experienced just what she has, finding it hard to make money with her camera and having the support of a spouse to handle the bills while she works at it.   Many of these comments were directed at bashing the special itself, not what she was actually asking for - which was other tips or tricks into getting back to business on a regular basis. 

   Foolish girl - coming to a photography forum and expecting any support from her fellow photographers.    Most of you are more interested in squashing up & comers for sport than genuinely offering help - or even commiserating with a fellow photographer over how difficult it can be, if you don't have anything useful to say because you've never shot pro.    :thumbdown:     

Fortunately for her, given her past success it's unlikely she really needed any of you.


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## tirediron (Jun 13, 2014)

terri said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > I think this one is done.
> ...


Ehhh... I don't think that's totally fair Terri - *most* of the comment, IMO, was aimed at trying to make the point that based on (given the posters involved) 125+ years of combined experience, her approach was not likely to take her where she wanted to go.


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## Steve5D (Jun 13, 2014)

terri said:


> Presumptuous comment, as well as several others here.   There is more than a whiff here of the usual stench that rises from bashing that perceived terror of photography, the Mom With a Camera.



Not presumptuous at all, Terri. She replied to one person, came back, removed the image of the special, and didn't reply to anything else that was said.

Maybe it's me, but that doesn't really have the earmarks of someone who's interested in engaging in a discussion...



> She also stated clearly in her first post that she had had more work than she could handle last year, and was overwhelmed by it...she backed off and turned her attention to her toddler for a year.   So what?



Well, for starters, she never specified that she was overwhelmed by the photography workload. She said she was overwhelmed. How many mothers of young kidlets do you know who aren't overwhelmed?



> Many of these comments were directed at bashing the special itself, not what she was actually asking for - which was other tips or tricks into getting back to business on a regular basis.



And she got responses to that. I think. We don't know, because she didn't have the decency to acknowledge those replies...



> Foolish girl - coming to a photography forum and expecting any support from her fellow photographers.



I didn't know this was the "Coddle Them & Sing Kumbaya" forum. People had opinions and expressed them. The only offensive thing is that she didn't have the decency to reply. Nowhere in the rules for this forum does it say "Make sure you only say things which will make a poster feel good about themself". I would really love you to point out where in my first post I said anything offensive, or anything that would be "squashing" anything...



> Most of you are more interested in squashing up & comers for sport than genuinely offering help - or even commiserating with a fellow photographer over how difficult it can be, if you don't have anything useful to say because you've never shot pro.    :thumbdown:



What I saw was someone take offense and complain about not being given advice. Honestly, Designer's suggestion for a business plan was rock solid. She just didn't like it...



> Fortunately for her, given her past success it's unlikely she really needed any of you.



Then it would have to make one wonder what she was posting for in the first place. 

I read her post from the position of someone who does this for a living, and I responded as such. If she didn't like it, well, it's unlikely I'll lose any sleep over that.

The thing that really makes me question it all was this statement she made:



> its actually really hard to continue business if your not actually doing any work.



That is an absolutely true statement. If you're not doing any work, you can't continue to do business. From what she said in her OP, though, that wasn't the issue for her. She was working so much that, if we view it as you do, she was "overwhelmed". Well, if she was overwhelmed, the statement about "not doing business" makes absolutely no sense...


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## robbins.photo (Jun 13, 2014)

ruggedshutter said:


> Why is everyone so hung up on her pricing? She lives in New Zealand and her pricing structure may fit her market better than $150 or what ever you think she should be charging. She's trying to get back into the market and sometimes you have to take lower paying jobs to get the experience and name out there. She even asked in her beginning thread not to critique it on her pricing.
> 
> With that said, OP, you had a couple of images on your ad that looked almost identical with different models. If you have enough material, maybe you can swap a couple out that are using similar poses. You want it to look like a custom photo session. I don't recall seeing your studio name on the ad. That should be big and large. Price shouldn't be the largest print on the page. You want them to remember your studio name and not just the price.
> 
> I can relate on coming back after a long break. I have been out of the wedding business for 9 years and I also moved 700+ miles since then. Not knowing a lot of people in the area makes it difficult as well. Hang in there, things will improve if you keep at it.



Well she was the one that mentioned this price was much lower than what she would normally intend to charge - ie, a "special". Which is all well and good, I was merely pointing out that if she gets any referals from this that most likely they will probably be a little irked if they were to be asked to pay more than what the person referring them paid for the same service. People can be awfully funny about that sort of thing.

Even people from New Zealand.


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## terri (Jun 13, 2014)

She'd already "been there," John  - if having lots of clients (a year ago) is what one is after.      Trying to step back in is difficult enough without the MWAC nonsense coming up - which it did, and had nothing to do with her query.   

Steve, the tone of the comments was completely off base.   She did want a conversation, but it got steered away from her original post from the get-go.   It's really, really hard to steer it back from a defensive posture. 



> Well, for starters, she never specified that she was overwhelmed by the  photography workload. She said she was overwhelmed. How many mothers of  young kidlets do you know who aren't overwhelmed?


And this is where you presumed she meant one thing, when it is entirely possible she meant another.   Here is exactly what she said, which she edited out later:



> I once was the most sought after photographer in my area and had more  work than I could manage but have taken an almost year-long break due to  being overwhelmed.



She may struggle a bit, but will likely pick up her past clients.   A year isn't that long.   I hope she returns!


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 13, 2014)

If the Op was offended by the comments and suggestions perhaps a thicker skin is required to drift back into business.  It doesn't matter if she was overwhelmed by kids or work, sadly a lot of people are forced to make a choice, kids or career, and not just women.  If she manages to balance both, then good for her.  Taking a year off from this business doesn't mean starting back anywhere but at the very bottom.  She will find that all the other "moms with cameras" that started doing pictures are now a year ahead of her.  Her competition has increased and she may just find it overwhelming and frustrating trying to get back what she once had.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 13, 2014)

terri said:


> She'd already "been there," John - if having lots of clients (a year ago) is what one is after.  Trying to step back in is difficult enough without the MWAC nonsense coming up - which it did, and had nothing to do with her query.
> 
> Steve, the tone of the comments was completely off base. She did want a conversation, but it got steered away from her original post from the get-go. It's really, really hard to steer it back from a defensive posture.
> 
> ...



For the boudoir photographers, do you get a lot of repeat business, or is most of it one off?  If it is just a one off, she has no base of former clients that will come back.  I don't shoot the stuff, so I really don't know.


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## terri (Jun 13, 2014)

> For the boudoir photographers, do you get a lot of repeat business, or is most of it one off?  If it is just a one off, she has no base of former clients that will come back.  I don't shoot the stuff, so I really don't know.



Now,_ that _would have been a great question for the OP.    :thumbup:    I'm sure she would have welcomed the chance to answer it and help her think it through.    I don't shoot it either.   We did have another boudoir pro here for awhile, and she said she got tons of referrals based on them - it was usually something she did do at a discount, because she got so much other business from it.


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## Steve5D (Jun 13, 2014)

terri said:


> Steve, the tone of the comments was completely off base.   She did want a conversation, but it got steered away from her original post from the get-go.   It's really, really hard to steer it back from a defensive posture.



She wanted no such thing. She replied to one poster. One. She took issue with what he said, grabbed her ball and went home. I saw absolutely nothing to suggest she wanted to converse on the topic. She wanted people to say "Hey, go get 'em" and "Good luck!". When she didn't get that, she bailed...



> And this is where you presumed she meant one thing, when it is entirely possible she meant another.



And we'll never know, because she never addressed it. Words mean things. If there's a chance they could mean something you don't intend, then it's not up to the person reading those words to decipher what was intended. It's incumbent upon the poster to remove the doubt, and she didn't do that...



> Here is exactly what she said, which she edited out later:
> 
> I once was the most sought after photographer in my area and had more  work than I could manage but have taken an almost year-long break due to  being overwhelmed.



So, again, it comes back to the nonsensical statement about not continuing to do business. I'd really love to know how such a statement would apply to her if she was working so much that she got overwhelmed. I harbor no illusion, though, that she's going to come back and explain it, nor do I believe anyone else could adequately explain it. Why? Because, based on her being so successful and sought after and busy, such a statement simply could not apply to her...



> I hope she returns!



So do I, if only to clear up what she's trying to talk about...


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## Steve5D (Jun 13, 2014)

terri said:


> Now,_ that _would have been a great question for the OP.



Of course, since she didn't come back... Oh, never mind...


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## terri (Jun 13, 2014)

I know you think you have a point, but you dont, really.   All that has happened here is that someone else got bullied away from the forum, and a number of you are in self-congratulatory mode.   She cant take it when people are blunt, she doesnt have a business plan and was doomed to fail anyway, yada yada.   When you don't _know_ anything of the sort.   




> I didn't know this was the "Coddle Them & Sing Kumbaya" forum.


 Kumbaya  forum, my foot!    You and your ilk love to toss that kind of nonsense out there while some unsuspecting soul gets pounced on, unexpectedly, by numerous posters, and the thread goes off track so fast they dont know what hit them.   Then you all sneer and feel self-righteous.

  That is topped only by this series of replies AFTER the OP has left, where even more presumptuous comments are made (She didnt want a discussion) and if anyone wearing a mod hat steps in, youre an amazing group of wide-eyed innocents.    Who, me?   No, it was the OP!!   

  What a joke!


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