# Oh no....



## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

So... I put an ad in the paper (not really the paper, but it's classifieds just the same) for an _amateur _photographer looking for willing participants helping me to expand my photography knowledge.  :blushing:

Today I got the first call....

:mrgreen: I was excited!  Until...


she said *double wedding*. :neutral:

Yes, _double _wedding.

I immediately told her I did not have the experience, equipment, or man power to do a wedding, let alone a double wedding.  (Yay, honesty!)

**Keep in mind we're from a small little town with little to offer in the means of photographers, much less someone who's new and offering good deals.

She proceeded to tell me that she'd like to look at my pictures (examples) and think on it.  I agreed, thinking she would look and not call back.

... 

She called back a few minutes later and said she would like to work with me on a price to do this because of the circumstances (2nd weddings, older couples, small wedding, etc.)  and despite my hindrances, she thought I had an eye for photography and she was only looking for the simplest cliche photographs of the wedding.  

I'm sitting on the phone going... there's no way, what if something goes wrong.  ale:

Me being the honest person that I am, I flat out tell her that I don't really feel good about being the person that might not get her "moment".

_Still she wants me to do this._  :scratch:

I got the impression that she's looking for an affordable option to the event and her family member who normally "photographs" will be in the wedding and can't.

I want to help her.  :er:

I agreed to do what I can.  I made it _*VERY*_ clear what my limitations were and that I had no experience and didn't usually work indoors, etc. 

She still wants me to do this.

Do I do this?
If I do this, how much do I charge for the fee itself (probably 8-10 hrs of work with the wedding itself and post processing)?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 2, 2010)

Have fun!


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## tirediron (Sep 2, 2010)

If you're going to do this (and really, that's something only you can decide) make sure ALL parties sign a very thorough contract which spells out in detail the fact that you are one person, have limited experience and make no promises about quality or number of images delivered.  How does the other couple feel about this?

I've never shot a double wedding, but I would think it would be almost impossible to do solo; even though I assume that the couples will be together at the alter together, there's going to be twice as much going on, and unless you just zoom out and get them together and crop in post, it's going to be very difficult (Not trying to put you off, just thinking out loud).  

As far as fees go, a tough one, but if you can do this all in 8-10 hours, that's quick, unless you're ONLY doing the ceremony itself (What about formals?).  Also, what kind of final product will you deliver?  Images on CD, prints, books, combination?  I would probably charge 1.5x my normal rate (which is $75/hour) for the ceremony and regular rate for processing.

Look into renting some gear, you're going to NEED two bodies, a couple of fast zooms, speedlights and the usual junk.

Good luck!


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

Gee, Bitter, that was helpful, lol.

What should I do?  I want to help her, but I don't want her to have extreme expectations of the photo results.  I mean, I'm fairly sure I can get some photographs she likes, and I did make it clear that I probably can't get -that- moment she's looking for.

Should I just tell her no, I can't?


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## mishele (Sep 2, 2010)

O boy.......lol:er:


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## SwissJ (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> her family member who normally "photographs" will be in the wedding and can't.


Is there a way to see examples of this person's work, so you can gauge the quality of photographs they'd be comparing yours to?


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

tirediron said:


> If you're going to do this (and really, that's something only you can decide) make sure ALL parties sign a very thorough contract which spells out in detail the fact that you are one person, have limited experience and make no promises about quality or number of images delivered.  How does the other couple feel about this?
> 
> I've never shot a double wedding, but I would think it would be almost impossible to do solo; even though I assume that the couples will be together at the alter together, there's going to be twice as much going on, and unless you just zoom out and get them together and crop in post, it's going to be very difficult (Not trying to put you off, just thinking out loud).
> 
> ...



Wow, I wasn't really thinking that I could fairly charge that. >.<

I was thinking about $400.00.  
Then packages.... This is what I told her I would charge for prints if I decided to do it:



> *Package A  $65.00*
> 1 - 8x10
> 4 - 5x7
> 15 - 4x6
> ...



I will def have to work up a contract, and no, I can't afford to rent all of that gear.  ((Which is why I told her I would be very limited in the shots that I could get.))


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

SwissJ said:


> misstwinklytoes said:
> 
> 
> > her family member who normally "photographs" will be in the wedding and can't.
> ...



I don't think so.  She said, "My aunt, who normally takes pictures is in the wedding so can't."

I got the impression it was just someone with a higher end camera, not a photographer.


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## Christie Photo (Sep 2, 2010)

There comes a time for all of us to dive in and get started.

This sounds like a good one for you.

Remember...  it's a trade-off.  She have someone who at least knows how to use a camera and you'll gain the experience.

Relax.  Have fun.

-Pete


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## tirediron (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm not saying that you can justify that cost; but you are being hired as a professional wedding photographer.  As far as the gear goes, do what any professional does; bill the client!  Seriously, source a cost for the gear (I would guess about $350 for a days rental) and tell them that this is an essential cost.  Given that this is gear that most professionals would have, I would consider splitting the cost with them.  

I would also be very cautious about offering packages, especially if you aren't able to get the extra gear.  The simple fact is that you may not have images which will reproduce as a 16x20.  

I say again, "Good luck!"


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## ababysean (Sep 2, 2010)

Is there any way you could offer your services as a second shooter in a few weddings before this one?
I am second shooting 2 weddings in October.  I'll decide what I'm going to do from there.


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## pgriz (Sep 2, 2010)

While I have not done any double weddings or big photo shoots, I&#8217;ve enough project management experience (with probably more than a dozen oh-$hit moments in each one), to give a few ideas.  Meet with your prospect and discuss:
-        Her expectations (Number of photos, sizes, scenes, how soon, etc.)
-       Location, access & support (can you go to the place ahead of time and see what is available from light & power point-of-view, secure storage (if you rent equipment), parking (you don&#8217;t want to shlepp stuff a mile), and able-bodied help)
-       Schedule of the event(s), and where your photo session(s) fit in
-       Feeding, watering, bathroom breaks
Customers often conveniently forget that on-site time is just a component of the time invested.  If you want to be paid for your time, make sure that you make it clear what amount of prep work, and post-shoot work you are willing to put in.  Then there&#8217;s the matter of getting the deliverables to them &#8211; are they expecting 8x10 photos in a manila envelope, or something more?  Obviously the costs of the deliverables should be included.

If you take tirediron&#8217;s suggestion and rent equipment (actually a very good idea), you need time to familiarize yourself with said equipment, and five minutes before the shoot ain&#8217;t gonna do it.  Not unless you routinely drive through red lights at busy intersections, and come out the other side without any dents.  Then, you could probably do what mere mortals can&#8217;t, but do you want to test your god-like status in this way?

If it was up to me, I&#8217;d tell her that I would gladly be the second shooter, but that I wouldn&#8217;t feel comfortable being the only one, and with the primary responsibility of their memories on my shoulders.  But that&#8217;s me.


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## eilla05 (Sep 2, 2010)

I think I would say no unless you the have the money to buy at least another lens and an external flash and bare minimum reflector (and whatever else bare minimum things people use for weddings). While your camera probably does okay with indoor shots im not sure if it would be wedding appropriate. 

I would be scared out of my mind to do a wedding at this point in my experience level even if the person stated they were aware of my limitations and signed a contract saying so. A wedding consists of  moments that you can not get back. If you do not capture good images (not saying you wont) those couples will have no memories of their wedding. Even if this lady is aware of this I would still be hesitant. 

Now if you do decide to go ahead and do it just be confident in yourself and ability and know that you will probably get at least a few good shots of the couples and not sure when the wedding is but I would read and browse online for tips any free chance you got. 

I had a lady contact me about doing engagement photos for her and she stated in her email that she was starting to look but had not found a photographer to do her wedding. I flat out told her I would be happy to do her engagement pictures but I was in no way set or or qualified for doing wedding photography unless it was something like a casual 10 person ceremony or something. Im talking very laid back kind of wedding. 

How big will this wedding be? Would it be possible for you to find another local photographer and shadow them on a wedding project and do test shots with your camera? That why you might get some experience and know what your camera can and can't do before you commit to do a wedding. 

Hope I have been helpful


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## Hardrock (Sep 2, 2010)

Christie Photo said:


> There comes a time for all of us to dive in and get started.
> 
> This sounds like a good one for you.
> 
> ...


 

I totally agree! Sounds like a great opportunity to get your feet wet with out being totally responsible for all the shots.


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## pbelarge (Sep 2, 2010)

Just Do It!

Just because her aunt is Annie Leibovitz, doesn't mean you should be intimidated. :mrgreen:


We all go through this life one time, there are many things we do because they are easy and the _cocoon_ is safe_._

_Break out of your cocoon and spread your wings._


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

> If it was up to me, I&#8217;d tell her that I would gladly be the second  shooter, but that I wouldn&#8217;t feel comfortable being the only one, and  with the primary responsibility of their memories on my shoulders.  But  that&#8217;s me.



That is almost exactly what I told her.  She persisted.  

She insisted that she understood what I was telling her and that she would still like me to do this, "to gain experience" and to help her out.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

I do know there will only be one bridesmaid per bride.  If that helps.  

I think the wedding is like 50 people or so.  

Quoted:

"A very small church."


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## Negative ISO (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm with pbelarge, go for it.  As tirediron says, write up some kind of contract that clearly spells out the expectations/commitment.  Obviously you are interested in doing something like this since you took out an ad.  If you are *really* stressed about it, maybe you could consider basing your fee on _your_ evaluation of the quality of the photos you end up with.  If your pictures suck... you chalk it up as a learning experience?

Everyone's stomach is tied in knots the first time they jump off the high dive.


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## Blake.Oney (Sep 2, 2010)

I would tell her no and then offer to do bridal and groom portraits prior to or after the wedding. Then I would do all the PP and do a few things like this for all the cliche.







It's not shooting the wedding, but those pre and after wedding bridal and groom portraits often turn out to be some of the most beautiful portraits I've seen because they cam be set up like regular portraits. I think that would be the best way to capture "moments". Faux they may be, but they're still moments haha.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 2, 2010)

Hardrock said:


> I totally agree! Sounds like a great opportunity to get your feet wet *being totally responsible for all the shots*.


Edited for correctness.


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## Derrel (Sep 2, 2010)

Man...there's so many people part-timing these days that they have to turn clients away...huh...I can understand if you do not feel comfortable shooting this event. If you do not want to do it, then do not do it, no matter what. But if you do go ahead with this double wedding, then make sure that your CYA really carefully!


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## MohaimenK (Sep 2, 2010)

give it a try.... you can't learn till you try. During the wedding, (my first) I didn't have any issue (it's just what happend after they came back from homeymoon) but yeah, you'll be fine. It's scary at first but once you go there you'll feel more comfortable and start knowing what to do. And watch lots of vids before just to get an idea of what other photographers are looking for. You'll be fine. Though I'd try to get a 2nd camera person just because ths is a double wedding.


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## vtf (Sep 2, 2010)

Ok, take a deep breath, sit down and write out what you can do and offer with what you know. Find out what they expect then  have them sign this. Review it with them. Then take another deep breath. Go to the church and take practice shots.
Heres a list that might help.
Wedding Photography Checklist: A List of "Must Take" Wedding Photography Shots
Have them review the list also to see if there are any poses they must have perfect.
And as Bitter put it "Have Fun"
:thumbup:


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

I plan on doing it if she accepts a $400 price. I will do formal picson a different day.


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## MohaimenK (Sep 2, 2010)

and talk to the church ahead of time to find out what their policy is. the one I went to said I couldn't move once ceremony started, if that's the case, rent a lens if you don't have one suitable for it. and like said above, practice shots at the church.


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## mishele (Sep 2, 2010)

Hon........I'm not trying to be mean here but I just looked back through some of your C&C requests and you are taking a lot of pictures that are soft and out of focus. You really need to think about what you are doing here. Wedding pictures can't be out of focus.....=) I would love to see you do this just not as the first shooter. I'm just trying to give you some good advice.

Take it as you will..........good luck to you!!


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## Heck (Sep 2, 2010)

Talk about jumping in the fire. I would like to say go for it but here are some things to worry about. You say she is persistent. That spells bridzilla to me. What if your camera fails. Do you have a back up camera, batteries, memory cards to hold 1000 or more large files, flash that you know how to use well. 

At the end of the day you are expected to have the shots can you guarantee that you will?

It can work out great if everything goes perfect but can get messy if not. 

This is just my view on this I am not a professional and have no other motives than just trying to be helpful.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 2, 2010)

mishele said:


> Hon........I'm not trying to be mean here but I just looked back through some of your C&C requests and you are taking a lot of pictures that are soft and out of focus. You really need to think about what you are doing here. Wedding pictures can't be out of focus.....=) I would love to see you do this just not as the first shooter. I'm just trying to give you some good advice.
> 
> Take it as you will..........good luck to you!!


 
Yeah, I was trying to think about how to approach this delicately.
You didn't mention the ability to semi compose a shot, effectively, on the fly.


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## Corvphotography (Sep 2, 2010)

im torn for you.  if you feel overwhelmed then i say decline.  If it were a friend's wedding or a distant relative, Id be like go for it! have fun!  everyone here has got me thinking there is alot more to a wedding than i even thought.  But since its not me, i say go for it girl!!  just get a sweet speedlight, extra batteries and memory card and kick ass.but MAKE SURE ITS IN FOCUS!  I believe once you meet the families your nerves will dye down.


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## ababysean (Sep 2, 2010)

someone hit the nail on the head.
If she is insisting, that screams dragon mother of the bride...
Has she seen your work?  If so, and she still wants you to shoot the wedding, then I don't see the problem.


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## mishele (Sep 2, 2010)

Heck said:


> Talk about jumping in the fire. I would like to say go for it but here are some things to worry about. You say she is persistent. That spells bridzilla to me. What if your camera fails. Do you have a back up camera, batteries, memory cards to hold 1000 or more large files, flash that you know how to use well.
> 
> At the end of the day you are expected to have the shots can you guarantee that you will?
> 
> ...



You made a great point........bridzilla!! If she is being this demanding now after saying NO, what might she want you to do later and you not want to. Just something to think about. She doesn't seem to be very easy going.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 2, 2010)

ababysean said:


> someone hit the nail on the head.
> If she is insisting, that screams dragon mother of the bride...
> Has she seen your work? If so, and she still wants you to shoot the wedding, then I don't see the problem.


 



misstwinklytoes said:


> She proceeded to tell me that she'd like to look at my pictures (examples) and think on it. I agreed, thinking she would look and not call back.
> 
> ...
> 
> She called back a few minutes later and said she would like to work with me on a price to do this because of the circumstances (2nd weddings, older couples, small wedding, etc.) and despite my hindrances, she thought I had an eye for photography and she was only looking for the simplest cliche photographs of the wedding.


 
:thumbup:


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## Aayria (Sep 2, 2010)

You mention that she "only wants the simplest cliche photographs of the wedding. "

  You *need* to figure out what that means to her.  It's up to YOU to educate your clients.  People don't understand what is behind a photograph...She may have visions in her mind of traditional portraits meaning "simple."  Really, all you have to do is stand there, smile, and poof your picture is beautiful, right?  ....

  When a bride says "I only want simple pictures" there is a red flag.  It means she's not saying that she wants the style of work you've presented, and she's not choosing you because she thinks you're a great photographer.  Simple to her means "anybody can do it" and "I can get it much cheaper..."

   And then generally when this type of person sees their final product and *suprise* simple wasn't as easy as they expected, YOU are going to get the backlash for it.

   Weddings can bring out the best and the worst in people. As much as she may say she wants "a few simple" pictures,  your idea of what that entails and her idea are most likely very very different things.


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## kundalini (Sep 2, 2010)

mishele said:


> Hon........I'm not trying to be mean here but I just looked back through some of your C&C requests ......


 So did I.  Sorry to say, but IMO, you're heading for dissappointment if you go as a main shooter.  Not yet anyway.  Give yourself some more time, assist as a second, hell even as a sherpa to begin with.  You'll be doing yourself a valuable service.  As time and practice moves forward, so will your skillset.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

ababysean said:


> someone hit the nail on the head.
> If she is insisting, that screams dragon mother of the bride...
> Has she seen your work?  If so, and she still wants you to shoot the wedding, then I don't see the problem.



She has seen the work, that was the first thing I told her.

She's not insistent.  She's persistent.  Meaning... when I tell her that I'm only me and I've never done a wedding and only have one camera with no off-camera flash and am used to working outdoors, and to look at my pictures first, she still wants me to do it.

As I said before I think she's looking for a "cheaper" option rather than hiring an experience pricier photog.  I think she would have gotten her aunt (using a P&S camera, I assume) to shoot the wedding if she wasn't in it.

Of course I have more talking to do with her and of course I will write up a contract that very clearly states how inexperienced I am and that no certain number of photographs can be guaranteed, etc.

I will no more when I talk to her more, but for now, I think I'll just stick (in my head) with I'll do it if she'll accept the terms of the contract and $400 price.

*shrug*

My intentions were never to get into wedding photography (unless maybe years and years down the road), but I feel for this woman because she needs someone. 

I'd just like to help.  I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens in the near future.


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## mishele (Sep 2, 2010)

"My intentions were never to get into wedding photography (unless maybe years and years down the road), but I feel for this woman because she needs someone."


I feel for her too.........

I'm sure it's different from the way you do.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

lol thanks

EDIT:  You didn't have to edit your post, I got your point the first time.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

So, let me ask yall this:

Are the pics that I've posted here and you've seen the same, better, or worse than some random person holding a P&S?

In other words, if she can't find anyone in her budget, is she better off tossing out a bunch of disposable cameras and seeing what she can get out of the?


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## Aayria (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> So, let me ask yall this:
> 
> Are the pics that I've posted here and you've seen the same, better, or worse than some random person holding a P&S?
> 
> In other words, if she can't find anyone in her budget, is she better off tossing out a bunch of disposable cameras and seeing what she can get out of the?




   You need to be able to answer that question yourself.  You *have* to have confidence in your own work.

  I will be as honest as possible, though, since you've asked.   But my answer still remains that you shouldn't rely on what other people think to make this decision.

   I think your pictures show potential. They show that you are somebody who is genuinly interested in learning about photography, who puts effort into her work, and wants to grow.

  I think your pictures will continue to grow as you learn.. And that anyone with a passion for photography will do better than "some random person with a point and shoot."

   Of course she'd be better of with you than handing out point and shoot cameras.. But being better off doesn't equal being completely satisfied.   Like I said before.. It sounds like she already has a vision in her mind of what she expects from these pictures.  She doesn't care what you work looks like now, and she hasn't chosen you because she likes your style.  She saw your work, she saw that you like photography, and she has assumed that the shots she "wants" from her wedding photographer are "easy and cliche" and thinks that anybody with a good camera can take them.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

Thank you for your compliment.

I do have confidence in my work. 

I think that I can do this as long as I'm covering my behind in case something drastic happens and I get NO pictures that are even remotely good.

I handed out disposable cameras at my wedding because I couldn't afford a photog.  I got about 15 cameras and ended up with about 20 good pics.

I think I could get better than 20 good photos at a wedding.  

**-***Just so everyone knows, I am the one who said simple cliche photos, not her.  She told me a few that she wanted and they are the very typical wedding portraits.  So I am the one who labeled them cliche, not her.******


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## Arch (Sep 2, 2010)

Do you know any other photographers?... if so, you have option number 2:

Option 1: she gets the standard you showed her for $400 (make sure she knows how she will recieve the images too... how many printed/on disk etc, i think $400 is a little low tbh but anyways) or..

Option 2: For $750 she gets 2 photogs, more coverage and the best of both worlds for you... you get to shoot a wedding and get some payment, although maybe not as much say $150, the rest goes to the other photog. This may be either someone you know who is skilled, or even appraoch a local photog and ask them, 'i can get you a gig this weekend for $600', if they are not booked they may be happy to take it.

Just putting out ideas...

If not id say put a little more on for you so you can hire a lens or flash (whatever you really need) then just do it... she knows the deal so she cannot expect anything more. However DO get her to sign something, there are people out there who may think 'this girl admits she isn't pro so we could use her then shaft her for payment'.... this type of sh!t happens.


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## Aayria (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> **-***Just so everyone knows, I am the one who said simple cliche photos, not her.  She told me a few that she wanted and they are the very typical wedding portraits.  So I am the one who labeled them cliche, not her.******




   If you promise her the "typical cliche wedding photos" it still puts an image in her head of what to expect.  You may also discover that the typical cliche photos are not as easy to get right as you expected.

  You may end up with some shots you're happy with, and find that the ones you expected to be simple were the worst of the lot.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

This is very true, Aaryia.  I actually expect the simplest ones to be the hardest of the lot.  (Other than the in-ceremony moments)  

But this is what I told her to begin with.  (That I didn't have the experience or equipment, that I was unsure of my ability to capture those moments people so desperately wanted captured in wedding portraits.)

So, does that mean I'm crazy for trying to help her out?  I don't know.  

I'll see how she reacts to the $400.00 price tag.


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## SrBiscuit (Sep 2, 2010)

no, it makes you helpful. 
im just nervous for you dealing with that amount of shooting, and that amount of pressure with what little experience you have.

have you gotten an idea of what the right equipment will cost to rent?


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

No, I don't want to rent equipment unless I absolutely must.  I've shown her the pictures that I have with what I already have to work with.  I've told her that I do not have an off camera flash and I have clearly laid out my limitations to her.  I did this because I do not have the money to rent equipment and I didn't want her to expect something that I could not deliver.

I've just emailed her asking her a few details about the wedding and letting her know the price I had come up with for three hours of wedding time (and a few hours on a day before the wedding for formalish type portraits).

I guess I will wait and see what she says.


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## white (Sep 2, 2010)

Man, I'm nervous just reading this ...

Good luck, and may the force be with you. :greenpbl:


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## kundalini (Sep 2, 2010)

I hope my previous post wasn't too disheartening but provoked some inner dialogue.

BUUUTTT, I just had a brainstorm (or brainfart, you decide). I don't know how long you have before the wedding(s) day, but hopefully it's long enough to get in some practice. This weekend would be great.

Get yourself together 4 adults as Bs & Gs. Find a similar venue if you can't shoot in the one that it's supposed to be in. Take the gear you have and put on your determined photogs face. Practice the ceremony as if it were live.

Edit the best images and a few of the average. Then start a *'misstwinklytoes tips, tricks and tutorials for weddings'* thread. As much traffic as this thread has fostered, I'm sure that one will give you a head start in the right direction.

As an added bonus for ideas..... and just to inform your client, show her prints of the RAW image and one that has global edits only of the practice session. This will give a reasonable expectation of the results. Then do a premium edit to blow her socks off. This one is of course would be at a premium charge.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

That is a very good idea.  I don't know of where I could get in good practice, and I'm not sure of the lighting anyway.

She did say that the church had spotlights that we could use, although I'm not entirely sure how that help unless I just wanted to underexpose the background. >.<

I am still learning here, but I've made that as clear as I can, I think.


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## astroskeptic (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes,

It seems like the vast majority here is making worst-case assumptions about the bride (who doesn't strike me as a bridezilla at all by your description) and other things. A risk you run from spending a lot of time here is overexposure to a certain perfectionist mentality that leads to photo paralysis. Happily, you're not giving in to that. Just manage expectations effectively, which you seem to be doing. Good luck!


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## ababysean (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm going to be honest.
I think she is looking for someone to do 3000 dollar work for 400 dollars.  IMO, 400 dollars is still not "cheap" She is going to be @#$^ing that she "paid" you 400 dollars and got @#$^.
I have only seen the pictures you have taken of your son on the balcony of your apartment.  
Take him to the church you will be shooting in and practice there....


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## bigtwinky (Sep 2, 2010)

Havent read through all the posts, but I;ll put in my two cents...

If you are totally uncomfortable doing it, then dont do it.  If you are just nervous, then do it.  Everyone is nervous.

We all have to start somewhere, right?  So why not start here for you?  Make your skill and expectations really really clear ON PAPER!  Get a nice contract that explains your lack of experience bla bla bla.
Make sure it details the price and exactly what you are giving them (I suggest images on a DVD).  Put in there that you are not responsible for archiving the pictures once they are handed over to the client, minor retouching is done, etc etc...  the contract is the key.

While I understand a wedding is a one time event, if someone has seen your work and you have been 100% clear about skill and apprehensiveness and they STILL want you, do it.


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## pgriz (Sep 2, 2010)

Probably a stupid question, but are there going to be any rehearsals?  If so, taking some shots during the rehearsal will probably let you know how the main event will go...  Plus, it may give more opportunity for unguarded and candid moments...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 2, 2010)

It is pretty interesting when you are making a contract for a business transaction, to make sure the client understands how bad you might be.


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## kundalini (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> No, I don't want to rent equipment unless I absolutely must.


To be honest, this might be an opportune time to rent some equipment. It would offer the chance to check out some gear that you have on your Wish List. Even if you get the $400 charge for your work, you could mentally think of the work as pro bono..... you know, apprenticeship, for the experience, paying your dues. Take a portion of it and put into savings, but take the opportunity to splurge on your hobby just a wee bit.

LensRentals.com isn't outrageous for pricing and are supposed to be well respected. Surely there are others, possibly locally.
LensRentals.com - Rent a Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS
LensRentals.com - Rent a Canon Speedlite 580EX II


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## pgriz (Sep 2, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> It is pretty interesting when you are making a contract for a business transaction, to make sure the client understands how bad you might be.


 
Yes, but if you look at the fine print with service contracts (say, from real contractors), the language covering the downside is pretty extensive.  It's all about managing expectations.  In this case,  it says that the upside is pretty good pictures for a very low price, and the downside is potentially very few good pictures for the same very low price.


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## Taylor510ce (Sep 2, 2010)

I thoroughly agree with those who recommended a thorough contract. Make sure you are covered in all unforseen circumstances. Make sure it clearly states your arrangement for the pictures. If she argues that you were doing "work for hire" type stuff then she could argue that all of the pictures are owned by her. If she is unwilling to sign or agree to anything ( assuming its fairly reasonable like all of this is ) then I would walk.

As for the fee, I am no pro, but then again, neither are you. So I wouldn't charge a crazy amount. The whole reason she responded to your ad is because she is looking for a low priced alternative. In a way you are buying experience by not charging her that much. If you DO need to rent equipment though, I would definately charge that to her, but again I wouldn't go too overboard. The package deal is a nice idea, but in this day and age, with scanners, make sure you don't have someone thats going to buy one package and then scan and print to their hearts content, then you aren't going to make much off those prints. So make sure you get a decent amount up front so that even if you don't sell many prints, its still worth your while. 

I would just look at it like this ( and this is just personal ) and since its not really a PRO gig, because you are going into it as a "cheap amatuer alternative".

I make about $20 an hour at my day job not counting any overtime rates. So if it was 8-10 hours, I would say I would normally make about $200-225 at my day job. So if I asked for $300-$400, thats a pretty good days work for doing something that you kinda LIKE doing anyway. However, that doesn't account for editing time, but I would factor that into the cost of the prints. It also doesn't account for anything extra like if I needed to rent a tux or anything like that, or drive a long distance to the wedding, meet for a rehearsal, take engagement photos, etc etc.


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## ababysean (Sep 2, 2010)

So does anyone have one of these, "I *might* suck at wedding photography" contracts avaliable?  hehe  I'd like to read it


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

Oh brother.


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## Taylor510ce (Sep 2, 2010)

It doesn't have to be a "I suck at photography" release...It can just state exactly WHAT the client will get for their money. How many hours, who will retain copyright to the pictures. You can add something about not being responsible for unforseen problems. It can state a fee for cancellation ( what if it pours down rain and its an outdoor wedding and you invest money in renting gear and clothes and clear your schedule and they cancel on you? ) It can also have an indemnity clause if you see fit to cover any losses or damages to your gear. ( like if someones drunk uncle throws booze on your gear ) It can have whatever you see fit. The big thing is just making it very clear, getting both parties signature and a witnesses signature.


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## supraman215 (Sep 2, 2010)

kundalini said:


> I hope my previous post wasn't too disheartening but provoked some inner dialogue.
> 
> BUUUTTT, I just had a brainstorm (or brainfart, you decide). I don't know how long you have before the wedding(s) day, but hopefully it's long enough to get in some practice. This weekend would be great.
> 
> ...



+1

I read all the posts. This is a great idea! you're going to make a lot of mistakes your first time, less your second and so on and so forth. If you make this "fake one" your first time you might get a lot of first time mistakes out of the way with no consequence. 

Also like his idea of rental. borrowlens.com is also a site that rents. I assume there's no where locally to rent based on where you said you live. 70-200 would be a good one as kundalini mentioned.

If you can orchestrate this faux session and commit to it I think you'll have a better understanding of your own level of commitment to doing this as a job to make money in the future.


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## kundalini (Sep 2, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Oh brother.


 My first paid gig was an engagement party at a nice Mediterranean restaurant with about 30 guest.  My contract explicitedly stated that I would delivery 12 images.  I showed the couple 20 images and delivered 30 good images.

The old adage really works.  Exceed your customers' expectations.


BTW, I paid for a piece of equipment that I used specifically for this session with the funds received.  I wouldn't have it otherwise.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 2, 2010)

Yes. I'm waiting for her response to the price. Which was my idea. Not hers. Ill go from there.


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## SageMark (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree, this is a great opportunity for you and your portfolio. Milk it for the experience, the money you make from this one will be spent in a week, just pay attention to the details and what happens from start to finish. That is where the paycheck is.


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## eilla05 (Sep 3, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Yes. I'm waiting for her response to the price. Which was my idea. Not hers. Ill go from there.




Do you have any other lenses other than ones you have in your sig? I ask this because you do not have much zoom with the lenses you have correct? What would you do if they stuck you in the very back of the church to take your pictures? How would you zoom in on the couple(s)? At the very least rent a lens with zoom so that you can avoid this problem. 

Good luck!


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 3, 2010)

No, all I have is what is there.  This is a small, country church, I'm fairly sure they're not going to have a bunch of strict policies about a wedding photographer.

But, I've made it clear that my equipment is extremely limited.  Several times.  Here and to the bride.

I would have to be accommodated if I do not have the zoom lens.

Although, I've looked at renting a zoom lens and should she accept and everything work out, I will very likely rent it.


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## eilla05 (Sep 3, 2010)

CameraLensRentals.com - Nikon Telephoto Lens Rentals

You can rent the 70-200mm for 67 bucks for 4 days!


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## LCARSx32 (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi Misstwinklytoes 

Your threads are always so fun, lol.  And I mean that in a good way.

My advice: Don't manual focus!  No matter how much you want to, don't use manual focus for the wedding.  Like I said in one of your threads, our cameras aren't designed to be easily manually focused.  

Scope out the location well in advance.  I did my aunt's wedding because of a similar situation; they had nobody else to do it and couldn't afford a wedding photographer.  I'm set to do my sister's for the same reason.  My aunt's wedding was in the basement of a building and the lighting was horrendous.  Even though I'd been to the building, I didn't take test shots ahead of time.  Because of that, I let myself think that my kit lens would be ok.  It wasn't.  Since then, I have invested in some faster glass.  So definately do some practice shots of people moving around in the building it will be held at and at the time of day it's going to happen.

Bring a tripod with a quick disconnect.  My tripod doesn't have one.  I missed some (thankfully not too important) shots because I had to unscrew the camera from the tripod (which reminds me, I need to get a different tripod before my sister's wedding, lol.)

The more prep work you do, the better the shoot will go.  Please listen when everyone says visit the location well ahead of time.  And make sure you do your test shots with MOVING people.  As much as it seems like weddings are slow and still, once you get behind the lens, you discover theres constant movement.

I just don't want you to have the same problems I had.  Hopefully this church is well lit!


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## mrmacedonian (Sep 3, 2010)

Personally, being at the same level experience and gear-wise that you are, here is what I would do (and have done):

Take the money she is willing to pay you and use it on renting gear/ any additional expenses. For example, say you will spend ~10$ in gas to get there, ~5$ in CDs/DVDs, and the other 380$ use on lenses (save 5$ for a drink or two.. don't want shaky nervous hands! ). Take this opportunity someone is giving you to full immerse yourself in the task. Sure this way you'll walk away with +0$, but the thing to focus on is the experience you gain, not the money. Use the money to bring her the best product you possibly can, and thats by at the very least renting the 70-200/2.8 and a good flash. 

Rates Photographers are paid per hour are a reflection of their skill, experience, and investment in gear. You and I have hobby-level skill, very little experience, and a hobby-level investment in gear, so if you look at the situation as I do I would equate my hourly worth to.. well lets say its not 130$/hr (based on a 400$fee for the event). Instead of looking to walk away from this by getting paid in cash, look at it as a payment in experience and spend any money you would get for your time to optimize the final product.

I while back a buddy of mine looked through pictures I've taken of my sister's dance performances and asked me to go take pictures of his band performing. This is NOT the equivalent of a wedding, but it was important for him to have performance pictures to properly market and advance his band. I asked him how much there was in the band's budget for a photographer and he said ~50$ so I used it to "rent" (paid a friend who owns it) the 70-200/2.8L for a week (approx. the price I'd pay on borrowlenses.com). So yeah, I didn't get paid for my time but then again at my level of skill and experience my time *as a photographer* isn't really worth anything. I walked away with a ton of experience and he let me file the pictures away for use in a portfolio, as well as getting to see a photograph I took printed on posters. I value those things far more then the hour I spent pre-perfomance practicing, the ninety-minutes during I used ~800shutter-clicks, or the 20miles round-trip I covered myself. Its all about perspective.

Also by doing this and letting her know you're doing this, she'd be hard pressed to pull an argument of "I paid you for something and you didn't give it to me," let her know you're spending the entire sum on expenses and I'd be amazed if she weren't shamed into silence over dissatisfied photographs, after all you did spend 3hours shooting and only you know how many hours processing - for free.

Since you were looking for willing participants for practice in the first place (not a payday), I think this may be the perspective you should adopt for this event.


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## supraman215 (Sep 3, 2010)

eilla05 said:


> CameraLensRentals.com - Nikon Telephoto Lens Rentals
> 
> You can rent the 70-200mm for 67 bucks for 4 days!




+$30 shipping likely. Also she might wanna think about a canon lens.


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## bigtwinky (Sep 3, 2010)

If they decide to pay you a decent amount, then see if you can cover not only a lens rental, but maybe even a 5D2 rental...


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## Christie Photo (Sep 3, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> If they decide to pay you a decent amount, then see if you can cover not only a lens rental, but maybe even a 5D2 rental...



Well...  normally.

But with this very small, very informal first-time wedding shoot, don't you think she's better off with a camera she knows well?

-Pete


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## bigtwinky (Sep 3, 2010)

Christie Photo said:


> bigtwinky said:
> 
> 
> > If they decide to pay you a decent amount, then see if you can cover not only a lens rental, but maybe even a 5D2 rental...
> ...


 
All depends on how well she actually knows the camera.  Informal or not, a small venue with low light will be hard to shoot even with a 1.8 on a Rebel XS body.  Usable ISO is what, 400?  800 if you want noise?

There are so many things to deal with in a wedding... dealing with people, poses, lights, timing, schedules,... even a small one has its hurddles.  So yes, using something familiar is a great idea, but using something that is better in P mode is another option to explore.  And if she is shooting in P mode on her XS, why not shoot P mode on a 5D2?  

Just throwing a suggestion out there.  A co-worker of mine does weddings on the side and owns a Rebel but rents a 5D2 when he does a wedding.  Doesnt have the money (yet) to buy one, so he rents.


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## eilla05 (Sep 3, 2010)

supraman215 said:


> eilla05 said:
> 
> 
> > CameraLensRentals.com - Nikon Telephoto Lens Rentals
> ...




 Yeah that was way to late and I should have been in bed... I was looking at lenses for me to rent as well if I ever need it (I have Nikon)..


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## Christie Photo (Sep 3, 2010)

bigtwinky said:


> ...but using something that is better in P mode is another option to explore.  And if she is shooting in P mode on her XS, why not shoot P mode on a 5D2?



Oh, duh!

I forget there are other modes on these things.

Well, then sure....  rent a better camera too if it's possible.

-Pete


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, she's accepted the price.  I am going to meet with her, the other bride, and the preacher tomorrow.  I will be able to see the church and lighting, etc.  I'd also like to work up a contract.  (Anyone offer advice, an example, something on this?)  

Hopefully this all goes well.  I know most of you disagree with me even attempting this, but I'm gonna, so if you're just gonna post "you're insane" or derogatory things, don't bother, I'm well aware of what you're thinking. :lmao:

Those of you that really want to offer advice, even for the meeting, I'm more than willing to take it.


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## Boomn4x4 (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Gee, Bitter, that was helpful, lol.


 
I thought it was the best advice you could have gotten.... 

The person already knows not to expect anything... she just wants a few pictures taken and is willing to pay for it.   The only thing limiting you here is you.... Have fun with the shoot... you have nothing to worry about.  You don't even know this person so if the pictures turn out like crap... you'll never have to see her again.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> You don't even know this person so if the pictures turn out like crap... you'll never have to see her again.



No. I'm not a perfectionist but I won't do crap. If they all turn out crappy shell get a refund. Most of my pictures turn out decent at worst. I am confident in that. I don't think shell be disappointed in that. I actually think ill be able to really please her because she has a very clear understanding of my inexperience especially in weddings. I need help with the business side of things. If someone has suggests starting settings I would love to cut some time off my experimenting time. 

Really I can't stand the thought of giving her craptastic pictures so I won't. I am going to take my time and give her the absolute best I can. It may not be "pro" work but it will be better than her family could give her...

Thank you for your reply!


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## tnvol (Sep 20, 2010)

Good luck!  I'm sure you will do fine!


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Thank you tnvol.  I sure hope so.


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## Boomn4x4 (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Boomn4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > You don't even know this person so if the pictures turn out like crap... you'll never have to see her again.
> ...


 
You are thinking WAYYYYYYY too much about this. What if she had called you and asked you to do it for free? What would you do differently?

I'm sure the answer is "nothing other than worry less about it". Bitter Jewler hit the nail on the head... "have fun"

You solicited yourself out for free.... somebody accepted your solicitation... AND THEN offered to pay you for it. Sounds like a bonus to me. This woman COULD have gotten you to do the work for free... sounds like she's just an honest person that respects that fact that nobody's time should be free.  I wish more people were like that.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

I do too!

I didn't solicit free wedding work.  I solicited free amateur senior pics! :lmao:

I am having fun.  I am stressing, but I'm having fun too.  I'm very excited about meeting with the ladies tomorrow.  I'll hopefully be able to do some pre-wedding shots ... wedding portraits, if you will sometime next week.  That will make me feel a lil better about it, I think.  

I'm gonna go get a tripod I suppose, so that I have it on hand (was planning on getting one anyway.)  Do you think I'd be better off getting a monopod?  One of the biggest things I've got to work on is getting a whole group in focus rather than just a person.  Is there a trick to placing the people so that it's easier?


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Anyone have any advice on a contract, model release?


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## eilla05 (Sep 20, 2010)

What editing software do you have? I ask because you can fix some mistake in editing  I can't wait to see your pictures !!!! How long do you have until the wedding? Hopefully they will let you shoot some samples shots tomorrow when you met them of them in the church at least it might give you a starting point.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, I told her I would like to play with the settings some tomorrow and get an idea of what settings I will be using.  The wedding is mid-Nov.  I use GIMP, Digital Photographer (Canon software), and Corel Paint Shop Pro X.  (I also have Paint Shop Pro 7 cause I'm used to it.)


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## bigtwinky (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> I do too!
> 
> I didn't solicit free wedding work. I solicited free amateur senior pics! :lmao:
> 
> ...


 
I never understand why people think a tripod is worthwhile at a wedding.  Maybe for the formals in a set place, but for 90% of the rest of the day, you won't be using one.

A monopod is something to be used when you have a heavy lens or if you have very unsteady hands.  If you can take a sharp shot at 1/60 shutter wit no IS, then no need for a monopod IMO.

To get the whole group in focus, you need to shoot at a smaller aperture.  You'll have a tendency to shoot at the widest during the ceremony.  When done, make sure you take the time to think about every shot.  If you have a group of 3-4 people and they are all standing on the same "line" or plane, then they are at the same focus level and a wider aperture might work.

But if people are standing somewhat staggered due to group size, one head may be a bit behind the other head and a wide aperture will cause the person in back to be out of focus.  So shoot at a smaller aperture, f/8 or so should work.  But this is where experience comes into play.

As a tip for a bigger group, try shooting from a higher vantage point and have everyone look up at you.  Not only will this help the dof, it will also have them stretch their heads up removing the dreaded double chins.  Stand on a chair, a table, out a window, bring a ladder...but remember to be safe!


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## bigtwinky (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Anyone have any advice on a contract, model release?


 
Sounds stupid, but google it.

That is how I built 95% of mine.  I took ideas from various other contracts and tweaked as best I could.  Note that all contracts should be reviewed by a lawyer, but while mine wasn't at first, I preferred to have something over nothing


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm out of thanks, but thank you for all of that valuable information bigtwinky!  I'll for sure keep it all in mind!


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

This is the contract that I've come up with by means of piecing together templates.... Anyone care to look it over and tell me if there's something big I'm missing?  Thanks!


> *Wedding Date:* __________    Approx.
> *Time Photography Starts:* __________     Approx. *Time Photography Ends: *__________
> 
> 
> ...


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## AgentDrex (Sep 20, 2010)

I just wanted to make a comment about Bitter Jeweler's first post in this thread.  That is exactly the kind of comment I expect out of him.  I can see the expression on his face as he read the post.  HA!  TPF is so entertaining, gotta love it...

Let me know how it worked out at the wedding/s...I'm going to do my first wedding when hell freezes over.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Yeah, I had no intentions of doing weddings... ever (still don't), but I felt bad that this lady had no one to help her out.


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## Robin Usagani (Sep 20, 2010)

You dont need a model release but you do need a contract.  When is this wedding?  I am really worried about this miss.  You cant just rely on your 50mm f/1.8.  You dont have telephoto lens (even the slow one) and you have no external flash.  I would run away if I were you.  If you really want to, be 2nd photographer.  You also need to know how to do mass edit bunch of photos if you do wedding photography.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Schwetty, while I appreciate your concern,  I think I've made it pretty clear here that they're not hiring a "first" photographer.  There isn't an option to be a second photographer.  The wedding is in November.  I will likely rent a lens for the wedding, although I'm not sure what, yet.

I'm actually pretty decent at editing.  I'm not very worried about that aspect at all.  I'm not worried so much about the wedding either.  I'm confident in my abilities (even limited as they are) and I'm confident that I've explained this to the client, so all that's left is to just do it and do the best I can.  Which I will do.

So.... 





> if you're just gonna post "you're insane" *snip*, don't bother, I'm well aware of what you're thinking. :lmao:
> 
> Those of you that really want to offer advice, even for the meeting, I'm more than willing to take it.


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## mwcfarms (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> Yeah, I had no intentions of doing weddings... ever (still don't), but I felt bad that this lady had no one to help her out.



The woman who met with Jack the Rip felt bad he wasn't getting any and look where that led. :lmao:

All kidding aside, make sure you protect your own @ss in the contract. Go out and have fun and hope to hell it all works out. When is this wedding btw?


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## Robin Usagani (Sep 20, 2010)

How much are you getting paid? Renting a 24-70mm f/2.8L, a 70-200 f/2.8L IS and a flash will probably run you around $100 a day. Also, if you break the lens or flash, you pretty much owe the shop the price of the equipment new. While $100 is cheap, $hit happens sometimes. Sorry I didnt read all 7 pages.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

LOL I posted a contract asking for opinions... 



> Yes, I told her I would like to play with the settings some tomorrow and  get an idea of what settings I will be using. * The wedding is mid-Nov.*   I use GIMP, Digital Photographer (Canon software), and Corel Paint Shop  Pro X.  (I also have Paint Shop Pro 7 cause I'm used to it.)





> There isn't an option to be a second photographer. * The wedding is in  November*.  I will likely rent a lens for the wedding, although I'm not  sure what, yet.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

$400 is what I am charging.  I will likely rent a lens, but I'm not sure which one as of yet.

I totally understand not reading the whole thread, but that snippit was from the page before where this thread got "reopened."


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## mwcfarms (Sep 20, 2010)

You think maybe you should put something in the contract that outlines how your a new photog and can't guarantee or something like what you have told this woman some sort of waiver. To protect your own ass maybe. I looked it over and don't see that.


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## Blake.Oney (Sep 20, 2010)

24-70 is your best bet. It will be the most useful lens for the event.


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## bentcountershaft (Sep 20, 2010)

Use lensrentals.com and go for the insurance then you'll have less to worry about.


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## SrBiscuit (Sep 20, 2010)

Blake.Oney said:


> 24-70 is your best bet. It will be the most useful lens for the event.


 
that.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

> SKP has given a clear description of the level of experience and  equipment available for this event and has agreed to deliver the best  images possible.  CLIENT has displayed an understanding of this  description, as well as, seen sample work and CLIENT expectations of the  photography match the limitations of SKP.



That's from the contract.


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

Can get a Sigma 24-70 f2.8 4 days from lensrental.com for $90.00 that's insurance and shipping.

Can get the canon brand 3 days from borrowlenses.com for $86.00.  

I will keep that in mind.


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## mwcfarms (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> > SKP has given a clear description of the level of experience and  equipment available for this event and has agreed to deliver the best  images possible.  CLIENT has displayed an understanding of this  description, as well as, seen sample work and CLIENT expectations of the  photography match the limitations of SKP.
> 
> 
> That's from the contract.



Sorry I didnt see that. If your going to rent a lens, rent the canon.


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## Robin Usagani (Sep 20, 2010)

I bougth that sigma for $350 used. Dont use that sigma. It sucks! Your photos will not be sharp at wide open. I have sold it after Ive had it for only a few weeks.  The AF is not accurate and it is slow and loud.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Sep 20, 2010)

misstwinklytoes said:


> SKP has given a clear description of the level of experience and equipment available for this event and has agreed to deliver the best images possible. CLIENT has displayed an understanding of this description, as well as, seen sample work and CLIENT expectations of the photography match the limitations of SKP.


 
That looks very well put.

:thumbup:


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 20, 2010)

ty!


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## ghpham (Sep 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> misstwinklytoes said:
> 
> 
> > SKP has given a clear description of the level of experience and equipment available for this event and has agreed to deliver the best images possible. CLIENT has displayed an understanding of this description, as well as, seen sample work and CLIENT expectations of the photography match the limitations of SKP.
> ...


 
I don't think that's well put at all, and won't stand under scrutiny in a small claim court.  Better spell out our experience level and the equipment in this contract.


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## ghpham (Sep 21, 2010)

double post


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## misstwinklytoes (Sep 21, 2010)

Oh yeah forgot to mention that it will be only 50-75 people there.


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