# Everyone sings praises of your work, until money enters into the equation



## epp_b (Aug 27, 2010)

This might be a lengthy post, so bear with me.

I do photography primarily for my own enjoyment (and I really _do _enjoy it).  But, I also believe that my results are both artistically and technically proficient to where I can charge, at least, a reasonable sum of profit.

On more than one occasion, people have contacted me from my website with  messages of praise and appreciation for my photos.  Unfortunately, that  tone takes a nose-dive any time they ask for prints, copies or  what-have-you and money enters into the discussion, presumably because they were expecting something cheap or free.  Either, they change  their mind (ie.: sticker shock) or they begrudgingly accept; I never get the sense that they're happy.

I don't think my print prices are terribly high. This is what I've been working on for a preliminary pricelist:
 - 4x6 @ $5
 - 5x7 @ $10
 - 8x10 @ $25
 - 11x17 @ $40
 - 13x18 @ $50

Then again, I live in rural shtick where some people think that paying real, actual money for a puppy is crazy.  People really are cheap around here :er:

Either way, though, I end up feeling ... "unclean", somehow, like I've sacrificed my art for a profit.  I fear that if I start charging money, I'll begin to forget about the art and, instead, focus too much on what people might be more interested in buying.

Any time I enter into a discussion with someone on whether or not I'll sell a photo and for how much, I end up hemming and hawing and, probably, sounding like a bit of a dick (when, really, that's not what I'm trying to do at all).

On the other hand, I don't want to just give everything way.  I can appreciate and respect that working this hard (even though it's enjoyable work) and giving everything away reinforces the collective belief that photography is simple and worthless, and that it hurts working professionals.

On the (third?) hand, I don't want to be a selfish old hermit by keeping everything to myself.

My latest situation with this struggle is a recent drag racing event I shot on-track (the same event as I shot last year).  There was no official arrangement like there was last year, but I had a verbal agreement, with one of the car club's higher ups, to get on the track again this year.  It was a blast: 16 hours, over two days, in the searing heat getting pelted by bits of molten rubber.  I got some of the best pictures of my life that weekend (you can judge them, for yourself, here, if you like) and conducted myself in a highly respectful and professional manner.  No monetary pay was given to me for doing this; I'm pretty happy to have the opportunity.

Anyway, one of the participant members of the car club contacted me today, through my website, flat-out asking for copies with no indication that he expects to pay anything.  I've replied to ask how he intends to use them, to which I was answered that he would like to make a large print.

I have a strong suspicion that I'll be promptly blown off if I try to sell him a print, instead of just giving him a full-resolution, non-watermarked copy of the file.  I also suspect that he may try to pressure me into giving it away due to the club having let me on the track.  I don't know... even though I enjoyed it, I think the 16 hours of hard work I gave to the club is worth _something_.

What do you make of all this?


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## ghache (Aug 27, 2010)

just tell him you dont gives your files to anyone. you sell prints.


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## Don Kondra (Aug 27, 2010)

Quit hemming and hawwing and give them a price.  You time alone is worth something and you don't need to justify that to anyone..

Seems to me I remember a price of $.60/inch quoted for prints.

Cheers, Don


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## Mustlovedragons (Aug 27, 2010)

Some nice shots in there (35, the Camaro, is my fave by far). Don't give them anything for free under pressure. The entrants didn't get in free, nor would they. "The Establishment" an deal with it until THEY start letting people get in, enter or get concessions for free.


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## Derrel (Aug 27, 2010)

ghache said:


> just tell him you dont gives your files to anyone. you sell prints.




Dizactly!:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Phranquey (Aug 27, 2010)

I think I'd go half-way on this one.  I wouldn't give the digital files away for free, but since they are a member of the auto club that gave you that great access, I'd offer a lesser rate for print(s).  

Some great shots in that gallery, BTW...


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## Petraio Prime (Aug 27, 2010)

It's not clear to me, and perhaps to your friends, what you are doing there. Taking photographs for sport groups etc. can be frustrating, because no one person is responsible. _Why_ are you there? Is there an agreement? If you are there because you like the activity, why should they pay you for photos you're taking anyway?

The photos seem competent enough, but perhaps you need to establish what it is you're doing and get a contract.


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## newimage (Aug 27, 2010)

your prices are cheaper than mine .. First guess is that it's not your prices that is the problem but more than likely your targeted consumer demographic. On your website you have galleries for nature & landscapes, architecture, concerts, automotive, Sports & Events, Animals, & everything else. From a business marketing viewpoint you're giving yourself the appearance of a jack of all trades shooter rather than a specialized professional photographer. When people see a "jack of all trades" presentation they automatically associate it with a hobbyist who just like taking pictures and that does not get you their respect or their money.
If you are going to be dealing with photography on a pay basis then you might want to keep the "this is what I like" and "this is how I'm gonna get paid" separate from one another.
As far as business goes, my recommendation would be to take the automotive and sporting events and give those their own website. The other stuff is for fun more or less in comparison. This will give you the appearance of a niche photographer rather than a jack of all hobbyist. With this in peoples minds they will be more apt to expect to pay as they would for any other professional service.
You also have to keep in mind that the potential client your talking about might just be a prick. I mean come on seriously ... how much money is that guy literally blowing on his extreme car hobby?? He can afford to buy a frickin print.
Never go with digital files either. Prints are how you make your money. Also I'm not sure if it's just different in Canada but the 11x17 and 13x18 are some really odd sizes. Normally consumers expect for the 11x14 and 16x20 to follow the 8x10's .. but I don't know that just here in the US.


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## Christie Photo (Aug 27, 2010)

epp_b said:


> ...I had a verbal agreement, with one of the car club's higher ups,.., I think the 16 hours of hard work I gave to the club is worth _something_.



But this is were the trouble comes in:  Just what is the "agreement?"  An agreement...  a meeting of the minds includes each of you giving something of value.  What is the exchange?  I'm presuming what they gave you is access.  What did you provide in return?

If it wasn't your time, then what was it?  And if it wasn't, you can't expect to change the terms of your agreement afterward.

I think though your print pricing is fine...  not out of line at all.  You're certainly not gonna get rich.  If they don't want to pay...  oh well.  Do you think any of them would walk up to the cashier at the grocery store with a loaf of bread and begin to haggle?  The bread is $2.  Buy it or don't.

Of course you don't want to come off sounding flippant.  Just reassure any tire-kickers that they are receiving the club discount rather than your usual pricing, reflecting a savings of 20%.

Now go sell some prints.

BTW - I never sell files...  or pay for puppies.

-Pete


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## epp_b (Aug 27, 2010)

> If you are there because you like the activity, why  should they pay you for photos you're taking anyway?


This argument is silly.  Do you enjoy your job?  Yes?  Why should your employer pay you?



> our prices are cheaper than mine .. First guess is that it's not your  prices that is the problem but more than likely your targeted consumer  demographic. On your website you have galleries for nature &  landscapes, architecture, concerts, automotive, Sports & Events,  Animals, & everything else. From a business marketing viewpoint  you're giving yourself the appearance of a jack of all trades shooter  rather than a specialized professional photographer. When people see a  "jack of all trades" presentation they automatically associate it with a  hobbyist who just like taking pictures and that does not get you their  respect or their money.
> If you are going to be dealing with photography on a pay basis then you  might want to keep the "this is what I like" and "this is how I'm gonna  get paid" separate from one another.
> As far as business goes, my recommendation would be to take the  automotive and sporting events and give those their own website. The  other stuff is for fun more or less in comparison. This will give you  the appearance of a niche photographer rather than a jack of all  hobbyist. With this in peoples minds they will be more apt to expect to  pay as they would for any other professional service.


I understand what you mean, I just have a real hard time narrowing myself down.



> But this is were the trouble comes in:  Just what is the "agreement?"


To be honest, it was just "Can I get on the track again this year?" "Yup".  The end.  Presumably, my prep-work, shooting and post-work is what I was giving them, but that was never discussed.  I don't think it's reasonable to give them free prints, though.



> or pay for puppies.


You terrible, terrible person


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## Christie Photo (Aug 27, 2010)

Christie Photo said:


> BTW - I never sell files...



I should clarify this statement.  I never sell files to consumer type clients...  you know...  retail sort of stuff.

I do deliver files to my commercial clients... who do pay me for my time.  This pricing begins at $325 for one image made on location, so long as I can finish in an hour.

-Pete


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## Christie Photo (Aug 27, 2010)

epp_b said:


> > But this is were the trouble comes in:  Just what is the "agreement?"
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, it was just "Can I get on the track again this year?" "Yup".  The end.  Presumably, my prep-work, shooting and post-work is what I was giving them, but that was never discussed.



I think that's a reasonable presumption.  I too would think that it was implied.



epp_b said:


> I don't think it's reasonable to give them free prints, though.



Again very reasonable.  Maybe _that's_ what you have to remember (and remind any print buyers) when selling prints.  It's like a portrait customer buying prints without ever paying a session fee.  If you remember that, then you won't feel funny at all asking for your print price.

Good luck!

-Pete


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## Petraio Prime (Aug 27, 2010)

epp_b said:


> > If you are there because you like the activity, why  should they pay you for photos you're taking anyway?
> 
> 
> This argument is silly.  Do you enjoy your job?  Yes?  Why should your employer pay you?



Not the same thing. This is clearly not your profession. You like car races...so if they allow you to take photos, and you would take them anyway...that lowers their value.

A 'pro' would be someone who would not be caught dead there...unless he's being paid handsomely for taking photos.

Do you think wedding photographers "hang out" at weddings at which they're not working?


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## njw1224 (Aug 27, 2010)

First of all, you need to decide your philosophy and approach to your "business" of photography before the client ever gets involved. Are you going to sell digital files, prints, both? Under what circumstances, if any, will files ever be given for free? You should come up with answers to these questions before shooting another gig like this where things might get confusing, because if you don't have an answer when a potential customer asks, then you do look bad. 

Second, once you decide your image policy, put it on your website. List prices for prints, digital files, etc. Make it obvious and easy to find. Not that people have to be able to order from your site, they just need to see the pricing. Then when someone calls with general price questions, you send them to the website - and the website becomes the bearer of bad news, not you. Plus, when people see things in print (or on the web), it seems more set in stone to them than if you are nervously telling them a price on the phone. They are FAR less likely to haggle with you if your prices are on your site.


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## Christie Photo (Aug 27, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Do you think wedding photographers "hang out" at weddings at which they're not working?



Now, ya see?  You were making good sense in your first post when you asked, "_Why_ are you there?" and suggested a, "need to establish what it is you're doing..."

Then you come back with this?  Common, man.

-Pete


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## epp_b (Aug 27, 2010)

> Do you think wedding photographers "hang out" at weddings at which they're not working?


You say that as if a wedding is a spectator sport


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## Flash Harry (Aug 28, 2010)

It is really, in public anyway, but he's just coming out with the usual argumentative stuff so ignore him, many pro's go to events/performance/occasions and don't give freebies, Personally I'd sell any shot someone was interested in but I'd not be giving away anything to a race competitor just because they were in the "club", there was permission granted its up to you what you do with the product. H


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## DanEitreim (Aug 31, 2010)

First, I think you should at least double your prices. It's hardly worth the trouble to print them at that rate. Then if anyone complains, explain to them that you are giving them the print for free...they are paying for your time at the track and years of experience, equipment and so on. 

BTW - I've been a professional photographer for 19 years and I've gone to a lot of weddings where I didn't shoot anything.


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## epp_b (Aug 31, 2010)

> BTW - I've been a professional photographer for 19 years and I've gone to a lot of weddings where I didn't shoot anything.


Presumably, you were invited to those weddings.  You don't need to be invited to go and watch drag racing 

*EDIT: *Woah... unspam your sig, man :thumbdown:


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## Christie Photo (Aug 31, 2010)

epp_b said:


> *EDIT: *Woah... unspam your sig, man :thumbdown:



Agreed!

-Pete


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## Heck (Aug 31, 2010)

Your work is really good and I would of killed to have a shot of my car at the track that looks like fine art and not just a snap shot. Explain on your site the value of having such a fine print and the years of enjoyment long after the cars are gone. I sold just the files for my car club. It is funny how the people with the "cheap" cars bought and the exotics never sold.


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## David Dvir (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with Petraio Prime on this one.  Just because you've got nice shots doesn't mean you're the event photographer.  Theres a fine line between hanging out taking photos and hanging out/selling photos.  If there's a father in the audience taking shots of his son and another father asks to have one of them, he's probably going to say yes.  You're somewhere between the father and a hired professional, however you're neither at the moment.  At the very least I would sell at a discounted rate.

Making your presence there clear should be your top priority I think.


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## PenguinPhotoWrx (Sep 2, 2010)

I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"

"Nope, go to hell."

Maybe that's extreme, but that is the corner a lot of advanced-amateur or semi-pro photographers get themselves into. It's a no-man's land, for sure. The rank amateur would be jumping up and down for the opportunity to get so close- then email the pictures to everyone that night (un-edited, by the way) with explanations of "I know this one's out of focus, but it would have been great." That becomes the accepted norm for alot of people who do you a favor by giving you access to something you normally couldn't get access to.

On the other hand, it costs you money to produce a print, profit aside. You certainly shouldn't be expected to put out money because someone else wants a print.

And when it comes to making a large poster of a picture, it would always be better for you to make the print and have them reimburse you, than have them do it themselves- you always want to control the quality of the prints since it's your name associated with the final result.


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## epp_b (Sep 2, 2010)

> I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your  expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you  say, "can I get on the track?"
> 
> "Nope, go to hell."


That's pretty much the reality.  The status quo is with them, not me.

It's not a matter of hiring a professional and paying for time versus finding an amateur and getting the time for nothing; it's a matter of finding an amateur or having nothing at all.


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 2, 2010)

epp_b said:


> > I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your  expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you  say, "can I get on the track?"
> >
> > "Nope, go to hell."
> 
> ...



Sorry, wrong way to look at this. I don't care if you are a pro or an amateur. I only care whether you can deliver good shots.

As a pro, I might go to such an event and shoot on spec (meaning I make money from what I sell) but my print prices would be way higher than yours. And if I didn't sell enough the first time around I would be outta there.

What you are dealing with is the Walmart mentality. Learn to deal with it.

It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that really matters is the quality of the images. If they're good, your rates are more than fair. If they're not, the rates are probably still fair if no one else has the shots. If they're great you need to raise your rates.

People are stupid. If it's too cheap it can't be good. It it's expensive it must be good. Lol. Forget about being fair.

I'm not going to get into what those people spend on their cars vs. the price of one of your prints. But if they argue about your print price, just walk away. No need to argue about it. They'll come to you when they get tired of buying sh*t photos. Excuse my french.

And if they don't get it maybe you want to think about getting into a different market.


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## PenguinPhotoWrx (Sep 2, 2010)

c.cloudwalker said:


> epp_b said:
> 
> 
> > > I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"
> ...


 
You're not wrong.  I think that's the gist of the discussion.  Had the OP approached these guys with a contract, or with saying he wanted to take pictures at the track that he could sell, then they would have expected to pay for prints when asking for them.  He didn't do that.

Hey- if I'm working on my car, and I ask my best buddy to come over and help with some of the two-man jobs, I don't expect him to charge me for his time.  He's hanging out with a friend having fun with a hobby.  If he has expenses, yes, I'll reimburse him for the cost, that's it.  Then I'll buy him lunch/dinner and some beers and we call it even.  Now if I invite that same friend over and he happens to be a pro mechanic- I would expect to pay him for his time, at a profit to him.  Anything else would be taking advantage of a pro.

Now here's the kicker- if my friend says, "Hey, can I come over and work on your car?  I need the practice working on that model."  Pro or not, I don't expect to be paying him.  I think this is the spot the OP is in.  He asked for access, he asked for a favor- now he wants to charge the folks who did him the favor?

Like I said, I'm not saying you should give them free prints- but you should at least understand why they may be a little put off if you charge them.

What I would do is say, yes, I'd love to sell you guys some prints.  Here's my price list, I'll give you x% discount and throw in a couple of smaller prints as a thank you for giving me access to something I normally wouldn't have had access to.

Let's remember, even if you gave them the original files, they would still have to pay a lab to make the prints- it still wouldn't be free.  Better for you to do it and keep control of quality.  They should understand that also.


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## epp_b (Sep 2, 2010)

> It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't  matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that  really matters is the quality of the images.


No argument there.

I've actually been told by people -- this was totally unrelated to this event -- that I shouldn't be charging money if I'm not a full-time professional.  Sigh...


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## c.cloudwalker (Sep 2, 2010)

epp_b said:


> > It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't  matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that  really matters is the quality of the images.
> 
> 
> No argument there.
> ...



Well then, tell them idiots you are a full time pro. And charge them 10 times as much.


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## epp_b (Sep 2, 2010)

> Hey- if I'm working on my car,...


Great, just what any discussion needs in order to be complete: a car analogy


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## LokiZ (Sep 2, 2010)

PenguinPhotoWrx said:


> Hey- if I'm working on my car, and I ask my best buddy to come over and help with some of the two-man jobs, I don't expect him to charge me for his time.  He's hanging out with a friend having fun with a hobby.  If he has expenses, yes, I'll reimburse him for the cost, that's it.  Then I'll buy him lunch/dinner and some beers and we call it even.  Now if I invite that same friend over and he happens to be a pro mechanic- I would expect to pay him for his time, at a profit to him.  Anything else would be taking advantage of a pro.


That is not a given.  Case in point...  My buddy, a professional mechanic, works on my car as needed.  I pay him parts (at cost).  I don't even work on my car with him.  If I send him side jobs yes they pay, but labor to me is free and parts don't come into the equation as I would pay for them regardless of who worked on my car.  I could work on my car with him and do if I want to learn but not usually.  This is not taking advantage of him, we are friends and good friends do things for each other regardless of their status.  My offering to him is repairing and de-teenaging his computers as needed.  Sometimes he pays me sometimes I refuse.  But those times are as needed just as my car repairs are as needed.  In other words it not a straight trade.  Sometimes I am fixing his computers more and sometimes he's working on my cars more often.

That is apples to oranges as far as the op goes.  A) Those asking for prints are not friends. B) Allowing to stand on inner track is not equal trade for handing over works of art. and C) There is the possibility of numerous individuals all seeking free to grossly deflated prices for said works of arts. Your example was one on one.

So no, the car analogy does not fly and pretty much any analogy using friends and family.  That is a whole other thread.

To op in that situation you need to stand up for your quality work period.  If charging for your work is not fine with them then you can deal with that next time via greater detail and understanding as to what it is that THEY actually want and think they are entitled to.

My two cents.


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## epp_b (Sep 3, 2010)

> Well then, tell them idiots you are a full time pro. And charge them 10 times as much.


Yeah, no, that won't work 

This is a closely-knit, small town.


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## Bram (Sep 3, 2010)

That's expensive man sorry. You charge $5.00 for a 4x6 print? thats alot, cut it in half man.


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## epp_b (Sep 3, 2010)

I assume that's trolling, sarcasm or satire.  It's become such a sophisticated art in itself, I can't be sure.


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## ann (Sep 3, 2010)

if Bram thinks your price is high he would faint at mine


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## Browncoat (Sep 6, 2010)

You guys are approaching this all wrong.  Look at it from the customer's point of view.

They don't give a rat's behind if you're a pro or not.  You have cool photographs of their car, that's all they care about.  I know a guy who attends MMX (dirt bike) events and takes pics of everyone.  He makes prints right there on-site and then walks around to find the drivers in his photos.  He sells 4x6 prints for $5 a pop, and you know what?  They eat them up like candy.

These guys have a lot of time, and money for that matter, wrapped up in their car/bike/whatever.  They are just thrilled that someone else shares their passion and is out there taking photos of them doing it.  It makes them feel like pros themselves to have cool pictures doing what they love to do.  They'll show their friends and hang your prints in their garage.  If they can afford to race, trust me, they won't scoff at a few bucks for high quality photos.


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## magkelly (Sep 6, 2010)

Ask yourself this is a print or two worth access again? I would think so given  you can sell to anyone outside that area if you like. Fact is they may have been expecting you to provide a freebie or two to the people that gave you the opportunity. They gave you the chance to take those pics after all and surely a print or two is not so much to ask. Bottom line, you turn them down after they have helped you, you may not be asked back to take any more photos in the future. Think about it.


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## Browncoat (Sep 6, 2010)

magkelly said:


> Bottom line, you turn them down after they have helped you, you may not be asked back to take any more photos in the future. Think about it.



Sorry, not buying it.  

If the event organizer were asking for a few prints, then you might have a point.  But these guys have nothing to do with whether or not he has access to the event in the future.  Could a disgruntled racer raise a big stink about not getting free prints to the event organizer?  Sure, but not likely.  Even if that were the case, as someone who runs a business, they're not likely to side with the guy wanting stuff for free anyway.


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## PhotoFly (Sep 14, 2010)

I think is possible to under price art. If it is too low people will doubt its value.  That may be the case here.


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## Scatterbrained (Sep 14, 2010)

If you were granted "inside the fence" track access (rather than outside the fence spectator access) that would imply that you are acting in the capacity of an official event photog;however informal the arrangement is.  I have never been to an event where the official photog was giving away his work.  Granted I do motorcycle road racing not drag racing but I am yet to see free photos from someone who had inside track access.  As far as getting access goes, I go to the local track and get pretty  good shots from outside of the fence, but if the guy who organizes our group decided to let me on the track I would not give away my shots just because he let me get a little closer.   It doesn't cost them anything to let me through the fence, yet I still have to pay a gate fee to park.  If they don't understand that and expect you to give your shots away for free then next time you just go as a spectator.


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## epp_b (Sep 15, 2010)

Well, for what it's worth, I didn't have to pay admission, but it was only $10.


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