# starting my small business



## MeganChristine

Hey all. I've been into photography for probably 10 years or so, always wanted to make money doing what I love. Well a couple weeks ago I started to get my business going.  Created a Facebook page, ordered business cards, set up a small studio,  bought a new camera, etc. Now my question is this... how do I figure out what to charge?

also, there's a couple photographers in my area who will charge say $100 per session with 15 pictures on a disk. BUT, I helped put another photographer who charged say $100 per session and people had to order pictures and she also made money off of her customers buying prints. which is the best way to do it?

and say I choose the second option,  anyone have any print websites that produce good quality(aka they don't cut half my pic or change the colors) at a decent price? 

Any help is always appreciated


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## funwitha7d

KmH said:


> What


hopefully the quote works, from another thread last year on this forum


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## funwitha7d

hopefully I am allowed...seemed like really good info but im not a prof photographer from KmH


What country are you in?
Is your business a sole proprietorship, a LLC, or a sub-chapter S corporation?
Will you be keeping the business financial records or have you hired an accountant to do that for you?
Which accounting method will you be using - the accrual accounting method or the cash accounting method?
Which insurance company(s) are you using for your business liability insurance, for errors and omission (E&O) insurance, and for equipment insurance?

Copyright release is not a good term to use, from a legal perspective.
At the end of the day, the copyrights to the photos you make are a valuable asset you own and copyright is a bundle of rights.
You can rent those rights in a piecemeal manner.
Also copyright is federal law here in the USA, so it's the same in all 50 states and for each business - www.copyright.gov

Instead use the term - use license. In retail photography a use license is often called a print release.
A use license/print release is a type of photograph rental agreement.

Unless you enjoy taking on the risk of spending time and money on lawyers and court costs, yes - you need a well written contract that every customer signs, and valid model releases on file. Also note that there are other details regarding model and property releases you need to know about:
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things
Having a qualifies attorney review or write all your legal documents is highly recommended.

Model release law varies by state in the USA so using a generic one you find online might backfire on you.
FWIW - minors do not have sufficient legal standing to sign contracts nor model releases - their parents have to sign for them.

Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov

Contact your city government to discover what their requirements are for starting/registering a business.
Contact your state government to discover what the state requirements are for starting/registering a business.

Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
How Do I Use My Digital SLR ? ...

* * * * * * A photograph is an approximate 2-D interpretation of a 3-D reality. * * * * * * *


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## MeganChristine

I'm definitely no where near contacting an attorney etc and making it a legal business.  I'm just starting out and would prefer to build up clients before I go into all that extra stuff.


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## funwitha7d

sorry, it seemed like good info but what you were after


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## BrickHouse

Doesn't the "legal business" thing need to happen before the "build up clients" thing?


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## limr

BrickHouse said:


> Doesn't the "legal business" thing need to happen before the "build up clients" thing?



I'm inclined to agree. Legality of a business isn't "extra stuff." At the very least, start looking for a contract and model release form. It will make life easier. Just search for all the threads of people who came here looking for advice on how to deal with a client who skipped out on payment, who is demanding a lower price or reshoots or more images on the CD...oh, and "No, there was no contract, what should I do?"


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## tirediron

MeganChristine said:


> I'm definitely no where near contacting an attorney etc and making it a legal business.  I'm just starting out and would prefer to build up clients before I go into all that extra stuff.


Let me know how it works out for you when your local municipality/state taxation office comes after you for $5000 -10,000 in unpaid taxes.  Oh, and since I'm sure insurance is "extra stuff" have fun in court when a client's child trips and injures his/herself on a shoot and sues you for a $100,000!


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## Vtec44

MeganChristine said:


> Any help is always appreciated



I've been a photographer for a while now (graduated from a state college with an art degree) .  I started my business in 2012 by legally formed a company, filed my paperwork with the city, county, and state.  I also opened up a business bank account and have business insurance.  Prior to starting my business, I was working full time and saved up the money.  Your city hall should be a good point to start the process as far as  the basic paperwork.  For more complicated paperwork, services like We the People - Legal Document Preparation Services Legal Form Preparation for Individuals Businesses can be a good resource.

As far as how much to charge, the two main business models are:  low price but high volume and high price but low volume.  There are pros and cons to each.  For you to charge a high price but low volume, you have to somehow differentiate yourself with the rest of the other photographers.  People will not pay more for something that they can get somewhere else cheaper.  Perceived value is the key.

You need to know to cost of doing business, ie monthly expenses, time, equipment lifespan, insurance, etc, to calculate out approximately how much to charge.


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## Psytrox

If you want to keep things very simple, you can do the shoots for free, and charge only for prints. Have it printed, at a local printing service, and either demand payment before hand, or send them the photos with an invoice, and give them the option to return photo's that they are unhappy with.

There is obviously a  risk that they wont pay you anything, but at least you save 200 usd on lawyer writing you up a contract


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## Overread

"I want clients before I do the legal bits" 

See the problem with that thinking is that whilst its nice to get the idea of building a customer base before investing and committing to company is that there's always 1 more customer. You will keep saying to yourself "ahh it costs so much, I'll just get a few more clients" and before you know it you've got the taxman knocking on your door and suddenly you get hit with vast costs that crush you. 

Best to start off how you mean to continue; it also means that your costs of doing business will include all your legal costs and such from the beginning. That means that you'll know how much you need to charge in order to cover your running costs. 

As said above your local council should have some good advice and information packages on this subject; some even operate small business start-up schemes (as do some banks). IT's important to ask because sometimes there are hidden costs or things that you've just not heard of which are very important. Furthermore sometimes doing things the right way can be cheaper than the wrong way as there are ways to offset some costs and sometimes scale affects what you should and shouldn't have to pay. 


IT costs money to make money and starting up a business is an investment. You can save up by working a regular job (you can even use that to phase in your photography business - work it on the days off from your regular work) and the early days of any new business are often run at a total loss. It takes time to build up client bases and to get advertising working (even if you advertise before the official opening day - which you should - it will still take time). So you need savings to not only cover your startup costs, but also to run your company for a period of time without profit. 



As for what model you take that is really up to you.
A high booking fee can dissuade many customers, however it also means that the customers you do get pay you the majority of your income in one go. One easy to take payment which then doesn't rely upon photo sales of prints. 

A low booking fee on the other hand can mean you get more customers, but you've got to offset that against prints and digital prints because that is where your profit will be. You'll have to be good at selling because you'll have to convince them to part with more money than just the sitting fee to make your profit. And you also have to accept that sometimes they will come and only want one photo. 

No sitting fee is the extreme end, however comes with a downside that with no initial investment you might get more flake customers; that is they'll call up or email and say "Yeah book me in this Monday" and then never show up. By having a fee you give them a reason to turn up.


You can also play with deposits and other such things.


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## astroNikon

A county assumed name is $10

Then you file with the state in order to submit and charge taxes .. yes you can ADD tax to a sale or just take it out of a flat cost to make it easier for the Customer.

And insurance cost isn't much ... have your asked an insurance agent by chance ?
A lot cheaper than being sued for a variety of potential issues, especially those insane customers who keep asking for more and more and more and more and more, and will sue when they don't get what they want saying they were misled (no contract).


or do it the easy (and sometimes really really hard way) and ignore all of it.

You've done everything to start your hobby. If you call it a business you might have some City Zoning Ordinances problems (even with a hobby).  And a hobby .. no income taking from it.  Call/Read IRS documents or talk to a business tax accountant.


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## sm4him

In addition to what everyone else has already said:



Psytrox said:


> If you want to keep things very simple, you can do the shoots for free, and charge only for prints. Have it printed, at a local printing service, and either demand payment before hand, or send them the photos with an invoice, and give them the option to return photo's that they are unhappy with.
> 
> There is obviously a  risk that they wont pay you anything, but at least you save 200 usd on lawyer writing you up a contract



I disagree with this.  First of all, whether you charge for your services or not, you absolutely NEED to have a contract if you are going to have "clients."  Even if those clients are just friends, you need some sort of contract that spells out what they can expect and what YOU expect from them (payment, use license, etc). Just one example of something that happens All. The. Time.
Jane Photographer does a photo shoot for her friend, Sarah Social.
Jane just takes the pictures because they are friends, no need for a contract.  Jane gives Sarah a bunch of pictures on a disk for her to use.
Sarah Social says "Wow, these are great!" then goes through photos, picks a few she likes, then promptly runs them through her OWN photo-editing app, applying gawdy filters, blown-out sun glare effects, changing backgrounds--and then posts the resulting really awful photos on all her social media sources.
Jane says, "Hey, you can't edit my photos like that!" Sarah ignores her, or says, basically, "Sure I can; thanks for doing this!"
A "discussion" ensues.
Jane Photographer and Sarah Social are no longer friends.

Seriously, no matter WHAT else you do--if you are going to start shooting clients:

HAVE A CONTRACT.


Oh, and the other part that I disagree with. Do NOT tell ANYone that they can "return" photos they don't want. No. No way.  Because once those photos are in their hands, I guaran-dang-tee you that if they return any to you, they WILL still have their own copies of them. If they are prints, they'll scan them or have them printed; if they are digital, they'll simply save them, then give you the storage device back with the original photos.


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## Overread

Just a thought:

Tax only has to be paid above a certain earning point; thus its potentially possible that you could work and earn small scale without having to incur significant business costs. As such knowing the legal situation is to your advantage as you could do some small scale work without having the costs ontop in quite the same way - things though like insurance might be needed still. 

A lot of it is about protecting you from the pitfalls; because if you fall down one that's it - without proper support and approach you're sunk and the dream becomes a nightmare.


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## jsecordphoto

Lol @ "all that extra stuff"


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## MeganChristine

Thanks everyone who was polite and helpful.  

No need for people to be rude. I came to get more information on such things as this because at being only 23 i have absolutely no idea on the business ends of things. My concern with getting insurance, attorneys, contracts,  etc is the fact that my business may not be big enough to cover those expenses let alone make any sort of profit.


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## limr

MeganChristine said:


> Thanks everyone who was polite and helpful.
> 
> No need for people to be rude. I came to get more information on such things as this because at being only 23 i have absolutely no idea on the business ends of things. My concern with getting insurance, attorneys, contracts,  etc is the fact that my business may not be big enough to cover those expenses let alone make any sort of profit.



But will you also be able to finance any lawsuits that arise from _not _thinking of legal issues _before _you start? Regardless of the size of the business, you need to consider these issues first. Do some research. First, it might not be as expensive as you think. Or, if you can't afford it, perhaps you should think about saving some money first before starting a photography business.


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## astroNikon

Model contracts are normal in this business.
Tell people where you live and they can help you provide a sample model contract.

Starting a business is not age related. I start at one when I was 17 as a DBA (doing business as) which you can get through the county clerk.

Then if you sell things some vendors won't sell you things to resell unless your have a sales tax ID.  This only requires one form to use to your state.  But you will have to track what you sell and track what sales tax is related to those items and send it in once a quarter or every six months or year to the state.

Those are the basic things to get going to protect you some.
It's not too hard.


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## tirediron

MeganChristine said:


> Thanks everyone who was polite and helpful.
> 
> No need for people to be rude. I came to get more information on such things as this because at being only 23 i have absolutely no idea on the business ends of things. My concern with getting insurance, attorneys, contracts,  etc is the fact that my business may not be big enough to cover those expenses let alone make any sort of profit.


 No one was rude to you, but when they tried to get across to you the importance of "that extra stuff" you seemed rather dismissive.  In truth, that "extra stuff" is the foundation upone which your business must be built.  Can you do without it?  Absolutely, but, again...  if you don't have a license and taxation paperwork completed, one, or more levels of government could come after you for unreported taxes/income, and they can base their calculations on what they think you could have earned.  Insurance?  You're doing a shoot with a family, you recommend a location, junior trips and hurts himself and you're sued for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Will you lose?  Maybe, maybe not, but it will cost you a fortune to defend regardless.  Contracts/release?  You, just pure luck take the greatest picture ever of a young lady who turns out to be the next super model.  Because your contract/release wasn't properly written, she's able to use the image commercially and makes tens of thousands of dollars and you get squat. 

Are those scenarios likely... probably not too likely, but it won't take too much effort to find lots of examples of people who've had to deal with each.  The business of photography is very much about business and very little about photography.  You will probably find that for those who make any serious money from photography that they spend 30-60 minutes on business tasks for every minute of shooting.

The biggest favour you can do yourself if you want to set up a real business is to take as many adult-ed courses on business, entrepreneurship, marketing and other fun things.


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## jsecordphoto

MeganChristine said:


> Thanks everyone who was polite and helpful.
> 
> No need for people to be rude. I came to get more information on such things as this because at being only 23 i have absolutely no idea on the business ends of things. My concern with getting insurance, attorneys, contracts,  etc is the fact that my business may not be big enough to cover those expenses let alone make any sort of profit.



It's not about being rude, it's about being realistic and people telling you the truth,  when many people won't.  I can't even count how many times I've seen someone pick up a camera, and almost immediately their friends and family start telling them how talented they are, and how they should start selling prints/start a business. Listen to the advice of those here who know better


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## Designer

MeganChristine said:


> I'm definitely no where near contacting an attorney etc and making it a legal business.  I'm just starting out and would prefer to build up clients before I go into all that extra stuff.


Hey, it's me again!  The reality is the fedgov thinks you have a business as soon as you accept your first dollar, and they want their cut.  Same for most states.  Of course, just filing your tax return sorts it out, and you might not actually pay very much in taxes, but that first transaction that brought money into your hand was when everything becomes official.

Now to be legal, well that's going to depend.  Some municipalities require a business license, and in some places you can't legally run a business that takes customers into your home due to strict zoning laws.  So you'd probably better start making some of those phone calls you've been putting off.

As to figuring out what to charge; there are some formulas to try out like cost plus, where you plug in your costs as well as your desired profit margin to find your prices.  There is also the local market forces which will pretty much dictate how much you can charge before customers stop calling.  Then of course, there is the question: "How good are you?".  A really good artist can charge more than a crumby one.  Selling prints is one way to increase your profitability, but you've pretty much got to have a customer before that can happen.


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## Austin Greene

MeganChristine said:


> I'm definitely no where near contacting an attorney etc and making it a legal business.  I'm just starting out and would prefer to build up clients before I go into all that extra stuff.



This is not *extra stuff*. It is what makes your business a *business* and not a *hobby.*


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## Designer

MeganChristine said:


> Thanks everyone who was polite and helpful.
> 
> No need for people to be rude. I came to get more information on such things as this because at being only 23 i have absolutely no idea on the business ends of things. My concern with getting insurance, attorneys, contracts,  etc is the fact that my business may not be big enough to cover those expenses let alone make any sort of profit.


Rude on TPF? Himmel!  

Some things you might be able to obtain less expensively, some things you'll just have to save up for, and some things, like taxes, can be put off for a bit.  Jumping off the cliff is no time to find out your parachute is still at the cleaners.


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## astroNikon

FYI
Business or Hobby Answer Has Implications for Deductions

and taxes ... state sales tax, (possibly City), State & Federal income tax based upon the $$ you take from revenue for income.  You can deduct all your equipment too.  So if you do it right you should be okay with some basic paperwork and tracking.

Also some cities, parks, event locations may require business info to give you a permit to shot there.  YMMV


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## waday

I like this article... Don t Get Sued 5 Tips To Protect Your Small Business

Also... https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf

5 out of 10 businesses fail within 5 years.
7 out of 10 businesses fail within 10 years.

Granted, there could be a variety of reasons, but I'm assuming cash flow had a significant impact on all of them. Getting sued will take away a good portion, if not all, of your cash flow. You could be left in the red after a lawsuit.

Starting a business isn't easy. It takes hard work, a lot of research, and a good business plan. A lot more than a Facebook page and business cards.


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## imagemaker46

Extra stuff. 23 years old, been taking pictures for 10 years, that part is fine, I started shooting when I was 13 years old as well. I'll be 60 this year and still shooting, so that part is fine.  I didn't have a web site or face book site for decades, so that part was different, it required me to go out and knock on doors to find clients, more doors closed than opened, that was the way it worked.  You have a camera, guessing maybe entry level, or mid level digital, one lens, that part is fine.  The biggest issue you will face is the hundreds of other amateurs that all have a "passion for photography" that also have face book pages that are willing to take pictures for free. You are correct in not wanting to get into a "real business"  that has all the extras  Stay small, enjoy photography, hand out some cards, make a few bucks. Once it becomes a "real job" it's not always fun anymore.


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## vintagesnaps

I might think about doing your own website along with a social media page. If you put your photos on a site like Facebook I'd suggest looking thru their Terms & Conditions because I think what you post there falls under their terms. It might be better to direct prospective clients from your Facebook page to your own site.

Along with the SBA site linked in the above post you might try looking up your state's website for info. related to small businesses and taxes etc.; I believe some things vary state to state such as how much you need to make in a year before you have to pay taxes on it.

Try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA for sample forms (releases, contracts, etc.); ASMP has a 'pocket' release and an app. They do a monthly Business as UnUsual webinar on a different topic each time (no cost, don't have to be a member, just sign up and they email a link), and they have tutorials and other resources for photographers.

It sounds like it could be exciting to start your own studio and you'll probably want to make sure you're covered for a variety of potential situations just to make sure your business runs smoothly.


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## table1349

You really might want to take a glance at these:

How to Start a Photography Business
Guide How to Start a Successful Photography Business Bplans

Just a thought.


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## jl1975

Here's a decent video from a B&H presentation by Jeff Cable.


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## Psytrox

sm4him said:


> In addition to what everyone else has already said:
> 
> 
> 
> Psytrox said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to keep things very simple, you can do the shoots for free, and charge only for prints. Have it printed, at a local printing service, and either demand payment before hand, or send them the photos with an invoice, and give them the option to return photo's that they are unhappy with.
> 
> There is obviously a  risk that they wont pay you anything, but at least you save 200 usd on lawyer writing you up a contract
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with this.  First of all, whether you charge for your services or not, you absolutely NEED to have a contract if you are going to have "clients."  Even if those clients are just friends, you need some sort of contract that spells out what they can expect and what YOU expect from them (payment, use license, etc). Just one example of something that happens All. The. Time.
> Jane Photographer does a photo shoot for her friend, Sarah Social.
> Jane just takes the pictures because they are friends, no need for a contract.  Jane gives Sarah a bunch of pictures on a disk for her to use.
> Sarah Social says "Wow, these are great!" then goes through photos, picks a few she likes, then promptly runs them through her OWN photo-editing app, applying gawdy filters, blown-out sun glare effects, changing backgrounds--and then posts the resulting really awful photos on all her social media sources.
> Jane says, "Hey, you can't edit my photos like that!" Sarah ignores her, or says, basically, "Sure I can; thanks for doing this!"
> A "discussion" ensues.
> Jane Photographer and Sarah Social are no longer friends.
> 
> Seriously, no matter WHAT else you do--if you are going to start shooting clients:
> 
> HAVE A CONTRACT.
> 
> 
> Oh, and the other part that I disagree with. Do NOT tell ANYone that they can "return" photos they don't want. No. No way.  Because once those photos are in their hands, I guaran-dang-tee you that if they return any to you, they WILL still have their own copies of them. If they are prints, they'll scan them or have them printed; if they are digital, they'll simply save them, then give you the storage device back with the original photos.
Click to expand...



I understand what you mean, but I think you missed my point. If she WANTS to start up with minimal costs in terms of lawyer fees, and insurances it kind of goes without saying that she's not going to be the one doing the suing. To avoid getting sued, she doesn't charge for the photosesions. That way, in worst of cases she can shut down the whole operation, and has only wasted her own, and clients time. 

I never said anything about selling digital copies, only actual prints. Suppose a practical way of doing it, is printing some standard small prints with a huge watermark across the whole photo, and if the client decides that they like the photo they can pay for it, and she can reprint without watermark.

But from what you've written, it may seem like OP wants to take photo's of models and such...? I was referring more to portraits/family photo's.

But this said, my suggestion isnt the best way or the right way to do it. It is a shortsighted solution to solve your current issue of avoiding start-up costs, but can as many have already said, it can backfire and burn.


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## gsgary

You basically want to know how to make money on the black market without being caught


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## Overread

gsgary said:


> You basically want to know how to make money on the black market without being caught



That one is easy - wear a wardens hat and armband. 

Seriously it's rather like a clipboard and high-vis jacket today only you had far more power way back during WWII. Esp from London you can read of many a tale where criminals got regular people to help with their activities or to ignore what they were doing because they were an ARP warden (or looked like one).


Regardless I don't think its an issue for those looking to go into modern photography business in the UK.


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## Dave442

Good information here. As the OP has bought a new camera and set up a studio it sounds like more than friends and family photos. I would want to apply those business start-up costs to my taxes.


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## The_Traveler

Psytrox said:


> I understand what you mean, but I think you missed my point. If she WANTS to start up with minimal costs in terms of lawyer fees, and insurances it kind of goes without saying that she's not going to be the one doing the suing.* To avoid getting sued, she doesn't charge for the photosesions. That way, in worst of cases she can shut down the whole operation, and has only wasted her own, and clients time. *
> 
> I never said anything about selling digital copies, only actual prints. Suppose a practical way of doing it, is printing some standard small prints with a huge watermark across the whole photo, and if the client decides that they like the photo they can pay for it, and she can reprint without watermark.
> 
> But from what you've written, it may seem like OP wants to take photo's of models and such...? I was referring more to portraits/family photo's.
> 
> But this said, my suggestion isnt the best way or the right way to do it. It is a shortsighted solution to solve your current issue of avoiding start-up costs, but can as many have already said, it can backfire and burn.



That bolded above is not true.


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## tirediron

The_Traveler said:


> Psytrox said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you mean, but I think you missed my point. If she WANTS to start up with minimal costs in terms of lawyer fees, and insurances it kind of goes without saying that she's not going to be the one doing the suing.* To avoid getting sued, she doesn't charge for the photosesions. That way, in worst of cases she can shut down the whole operation, and has only wasted her own, and clients time. *
> 
> I never said anything about selling digital copies, only actual prints. Suppose a practical way of doing it, is printing some standard small prints with a huge watermark across the whole photo, and if the client decides that they like the photo they can pay for it, and she can reprint without watermark.
> 
> But from what you've written, it may seem like OP wants to take photo's of models and such...? I was referring more to portraits/family photo's.
> 
> But this said, my suggestion isnt the best way or the right way to do it. It is a shortsighted solution to solve your current issue of avoiding start-up costs, but can as many have already said, it can backfire and burn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That bolded above is not true.
Click to expand...

 Indeed; in fact that is about as not true as it's possible for anything to be.  With very, very few exceptions, almost anyone can sue almost anyone for almost anything almost any time.


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## astroNikon

The_Traveler said:


> Psytrox said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you mean, but I think you missed my point. If she WANTS to start up with minimal costs in terms of lawyer fees, and insurances it kind of goes without saying that she's not going to be the one doing the suing.* To avoid getting sued, she doesn't charge for the photosesions. That way, in worst of cases she can shut down the whole operation, and has only wasted her own, and clients time.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That bolded above is not true.
Click to expand...

With a DBA, Incorporation even an LLC people can successfully get sued for their individual assets/worth up and above the "company".  Once you are sued as an individual then shutting down and starting over doesn't help.  

It does help if the "company" goes bankrupt.  Then shutting down, selling the assets to the "new company" and starting over helps as it sheds the existing debt (assuming the debtor doesn't link you personally, with "the company").  For most people and their small business they are liable for the company's debt - read your own Operating Agreement (where lawyers come into play).

and other caveats not withstanding ... consult a lawyer for much more in-depth info as I may be wrong dependent upon your location, etc.


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## Overread

Note shutting down and declaring bankruptcy can come with its own problems. Sure its easy to do for the company, but unless its setup right you can fast end up unable to get normal bank accounts, loans, credit and other things. Indeed that's why you see many situations where the person running the company isn't the one on the books as running it (because they already messed up once and now their partner in business/life has to do the bank and management side of things).


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## Vtec44

The girl hasn't even started her business yet and here we are already talking about bankruptcy! hahaha


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## astroNikon

Vtec44 said:


> The girl hasn't even started her business yet and here we are already talking about bankruptcy! hahaha


She did say


> Well *a couple weeks ago I started to get my business going.*  Created a Facebook page, ordered business cards, set up a small studio, bought a new camera, etc. Now my question is this... how do I figure out what to charge?



so ... looks like it's already "going", studio and all.

She just doesn't know how to price or print, etc. for her business.


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## Braineack

I say, skip trying to "create a business" at this point

practice photography, shoot clients, make some side cash.   If you still then want to focus on making this a business, learn your local/fed laws regarding reporting income/sales.

in the meantime, it's still not a bad idea to learn about contracts, as paid or not, reported or not, there's still useage and copyrights to worry about.

As far as pricing, that's something you need to figure out for yourself.  What are you worth? What is your time worth? How much are people willing to pay you?  How much can people pay other photograhpers in the area? Is it worth trying to make income in this business? All questions you're going to need to answer.


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## table1349

astroNikon said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The girl hasn't even started her business yet and here we are already talking about bankruptcy! hahaha
> 
> 
> 
> She did say
> 
> 
> 
> Well *a couple weeks ago I started to get my business going.*  Created a Facebook page, ordered business cards, set up a small studio, bought a new camera, etc. Now my question is this... how do I figure out what to charge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so ... looks like it's already "going", studio and all.
> 
> She just doesn't know how to price or print, etc. for her business.
Click to expand...


Well in a general sorta way I suppose.    

It's kind of like buying a garage, a few tools, a couple of bottles of oil and making a Facebook page stating you are open.  Problem is you know how to start the car and put it in gear, but have no idea how to open the hood to get to the good stuff, or what to charge if you do manage to open the hood and figure out that a spark plug wire is loose or it just needs more coolant in the radiator.


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## vfotog

wow. Talk about trying to run a marathon before you've even learned to walk...   You shouldn't even be talking about a business until you've learned the skills to shoot well enough to charge and done all the research about what a business entails. I read your thread on the studio you set up in your spare bedroom. People tried to help you with lighting information and you said you "weren't tech savvy when it comes to all that stuff".  You should know something about lighting if you are going to have a studio. Your clients will expect you to know. You certainly need to have insurance; especially since you want to shoot newborns and children. If a serious accident happens, you could be paying for the rest of your life. But you shouldn't be talking about having a business until you have researched and understand the laws. Since this is a home studio, you could very well be prohibited by local zoning laws from operating it. Zoning, licenses, taxes...  the IRS, state, county, city....  none of them care whether you know about or understand the laws. They expect you to understand and follow them. Period. Photography is one skill set; running a business is another. Have you taken any business or accounting classes? You can just blow off all of this, but then if various agencies come after you and you get shut down, fined, sued, etc don't be surprised and be prepared to take the financial hit.


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## MeganChristine

I shoot 99.9% outside, so I am more familiar with using my camera and natural light. The studio is new for me, as is the business aspect of it, and so will buying lights and studio equipment. But everyone starts somewhere, right? So when I say I'm not tech savvy, I really mean that I've haven't had a lot of experience with it. Hence why I came to a photography forum to become more educated. I've surpassed the "I have a camera and one lens" stage years ago. Ive Invested alot of money in my cameras and lenses. Taken probably a million pictures and have already been doing a variety of different photo shoots and earning some money from it. I am not just another person with a camera and crappy pictures who believes they're a photographer(I was taking better pictures when I was 14 than some pro photographers around my area take now). I feel like I am being mocked in alot of the comments on this thread, which upsets me because I came on here for help with certain things that I am not familiar with. But, I besides that, I'm going to continue towards opening a small business.  And yes, I will be looking into getting a contract made up, insurance, etc all that to make it legal. so thank you to everyone with helpful comments and pointing me in the right direction.  It is much appreciated!


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## table1349

While I am sorry if you feel that way.  With the question you posed and the way you worded it the responses were pretty typical.  Frankly photographers are a dime a dozen, both good and bad.  I know fantastic photographers with the kind of equiptment most only dream about that couldn't stay in business 6 months.  I know crappy photographers, similar to the ones you mentioned, that have been in business for years.  

Running a photography business in truth has little to do with photography.  It's called a photography BUSINESS for a reason.  It is the business aspects that will take most of your time and attention to get it up and running, as well as to keep it running.  Your camera time will probably average no more than 20% of your entire business time.  

All of the business aspects mentioned here are not just important but of the first importance.  Anyone that ever started a successfull business started with a good business plan and knew the ins and outs involved and covered those bases BEFORE they opened their doors. 

Doesn't matter if you are the next Ansel Adams.  With out a good foundation into the business side you are very likely to see your name advertised as  _*John Doe vs The Next Ansel Adams*_ as the heading for a Civil Suit.


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## Vtec44

Well enough talk, I want to see some pictures!!


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## BrickHouse

Lets see you put your money where that mouth is. Where are the pics!!! WE WANT PICS, WE WANT PICS (chant slowly dies off as nobody joins in.........)


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## Braineack

We want a pitcher....

using tapatalk.


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## Designer

MeganChristine said:


> I feel like I am being mocked in alot of the comments on this thread, which upsets me because I came on here for help with certain things that I am not familiar with.


If you had been reading and posting here for a couple of years, you would see that nobody has actually been mean to you.

Yes, the answers were varied and sometimes off topic, but I didn't notice any rudeness.  

But of course, this post is rude, so don't read it.


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## astroNikon

A Model "Contract" isn't to help the business per say.

It's to protect you from someone that wants more than what you are offering for a particular price.   If you ever end up in court (small claims, etc) for any reason (and we never want anyone to end up in court), the judge's first question would be .. "let me see the contract".

People here just want to help you past some hurdles that you don't want to find out the hard way.


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## The_Traveler

People respond to what you presented.
We've heard routinely from people with little experience or skills that want to start a 'business' and, without you saying anything different, we can only assume you fall into that group.


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## MeganChristine

I


The_Traveler said:


> People respond to what you presented.
> We've heard routinely from people with little experience or skills that want to start a 'business' and, without you saying anything different, we can only assume you fall into that group.



Actually,  no one responded to what I presented. Just putting that out there.


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## tirediron

MeganChristine said:


> I
> 
> 
> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> People respond to what you presented.
> We've heard routinely from people with little experience or skills that want to start a 'business' and, without you saying anything different, we can only assume you fall into that group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually,  no one responded to what I presented. Just putting that out there.
Click to expand...

 Actually, they did.  You put this out there:


MeganChristine said:


> I'm definitely no where near contacting an attorney etc and making it a legal business. I'm just starting out and would prefer to build up clients before I go into all that extra stuff.


 and people responded by trying to help you understand that this is NOT the way to go about starting a business.

With respect to your question on which business model, I would always advocate for the 'sell prints' vice 'images on disc' model.  Once you've turned over the disc, you're pretty much done with tha client, unless they come back for another session.  When you retain the digital files and sell prints, then when they want more prints, they have to come back to you.  Now, in this day and age of cell 'phone snaps and facebook, it takes a little more salesmanship to sell prints.  One of the things that I do is show them an 8x10 from the lab I use beside an 8x10 from Wal-mart.  That usually does most of 'selling' for me right there.


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## astroNikon

tirediron said:


> .... One of the things that I do is show them an 8x10 from the lab I use beside an 8x10 from Wal-mart.  That usually does most of 'selling' for me right there.


Ingenious !!


See all the great ideas you get from this group.


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## MeganChristine

Yes, never thought of doing that! Definitely will have to do that. Now just need to narrow it down to a photo lab to use.


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## jsecordphoto

MeganChristine said:


> Yes, never thought of doing that! Definitely will have to do that. Now just need to narrow it down to a photo lab to use.



So you haven't had photos printed from a lab before? I mean you really should figure ALL of this stuff out and have experience with all facets of the photo end before thinking about getting into business. Printing is it's own art...are your monitors calibrated? Do you have experience processing photos for each print medium (different paper types,  canvas, etc.)?


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## astroNikon

jsecordphoto said:


> MeganChristine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, never thought of doing that! Definitely will have to do that. Now just need to narrow it down to a photo lab to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you haven't had photos printed from a lab before? I mean you really should figure ALL of this stuff out and have experience with all facets of the photo end before thinking about getting into business. Printing is it's own art...are your monitors calibrated? Do you have experience processing photos for each print medium (different paper types,  canvas, etc.)?
Click to expand...

Costs more than Walmart too ... adjust business prices accordingly.


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## Chifor Iulia

You could search for similar companies in your area and make and average price,maybe even lower for the beginning


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## astroNikon

print labs ==> Pro Photo labs Photography Forum


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## tirediron

Chifor Iulia said:


> You could search for similar companies in your area and make and average price,maybe even lower for the beginning


 Unfortunately, that's just about the worst way to determine pricing since it doesn't account for your costs.  You need to determine what your hard/fixed costs are, then determine how much of a salary you want, add those together, and divide by the number of sessions you can reasonably expect to conduct during a week/month.  From there you deterimine how much you need to make on each shoot, and based on what you sell, and the cost of those products, what your prices should be.


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## vintagesnaps

I wondered about zoning, if you have people coming and going neighbors might start to wonder... That might be something to check into before you start scheduling sessions if you haven't yet.

And you mentioned newborn photography, which brings up what could be another whole thread, but there's plenty online about baby photography that seems to be using poses and equipment that may not be appropriate. Please look up info. from child development sources, not just from people with cameras.


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## astroNikon

vintagesnaps said:


> I wondered about zoning, if you have people coming and going neighbors might start to wonder... That might be something to check into before you start scheduling sessions if you haven't yet.
> 
> And you mentioned newborn photography, which brings up what could be another whole thread, but there's plenty online about baby photography that seems to be using poses and equipment that may not be appropriate. Please look up info. from child development sources, not just from people with cameras.


Yes, I mentioned zoning earlier.

By checking with the City about Zoning ordinances you open yourself up to the city and any other potential business permits and ordinances -so you have to be careful on how you ask.

Of course, there's roughly half of all small business that are out of the house (no demographic breakdowns on that though but I assume alot do consulting stuff that doesn't add foot traffic).

Normally a city won't notice some additional foot traffic.  A lot, maybe.
Neighbors might notice more though.

This is very helpful, generally speaking  ==> Home-Based Business Zoning Laws The U.S. Small Business Administration SBA.gov

here's an article that is fairly helpful in that regards  to check for zoning ordinances ==> Is Your Home Zoned for Business 

basic stuff ==> Understanding Zoning Licensing and Permits - For Dummies

more good basic reading ==> Is Your Home-Based Business Illegal Inc.com


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## Austin Greene

vintagesnaps said:


> I wondered about zoning, if you have people coming and going neighbors might start to wonder... That might be something to check into before you start scheduling sessions if you haven't yet.
> 
> And you mentioned newborn photography, which brings up what could be another whole thread, but there's plenty online about baby photography that seems to be using poses and equipment that may not be appropriate. Please look up info. from child development sources, not just from people with cameras.



Wait...so I can't shoot the kid all wrapped up and snuggly in a 6' burmese python? But I've already booked the python!


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## tirediron

Austin Greene said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wondered about zoning, if you have people coming and going neighbors might start to wonder... That might be something to check into before you start scheduling sessions if you haven't yet.
> 
> And you mentioned newborn photography, which brings up what could be another whole thread, but there's plenty online about baby photography that seems to be using poses and equipment that may not be appropriate. Please look up info. from child development sources, not just from people with cameras.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait...so I can't shoot the kid all wrapped up and snuggly in a 6' burmese python? But I've already booked the python!
Click to expand...

 That's what insurance is for!  (The python did sign a release, right?)


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## astroNikon

Austin Greene said:


> Wait...so I can't shoot the kid all wrapped up and snuggly in a 6' burmese python? But I've already booked the python!


Yes you can.
But if your neighbor(s) or police see it, the python may get another form of being in a shoot(out).

In which case make sure your house, business, health, liability AND Life insurance is paid up.


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## table1349

I am suprised that this thread has gone on this long since the OP has alread indicated that the things being discussed are not of any importance to her at this juncture.  I would remind you of the words of Mark Twain..

_*"...the person that had took a bull by the tail once had learnt sixty or seventy times as much as a person that hadn't, and said a person that started in to carry a cat home by the tail was getting knowledge that was always going to be useful to him, and warn't ever going to grow dim or doubtful. "*_

I believe the time has come to allow the OP her opportunity to carry a cat or two home by the tail.   I am reaonably confident that in the near future we will be asked how to get out of some perdiciment or another.

Until then, keep in mind, we are a creature that enjoys the failings commited by others.  If you do not believe that then explain to me how America's Funniest Videos stayed on the air so long.  The $10,000.00 winner was always the guy that took the shot to the crotch, or the kid that did a face plant, or the woman that got stuck in some object that was to small for her fat butt.  With out such fails youtube would have gone away long ago, and The People of Walmart would no longer take up bandwidth.


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## acparsons

Very valuable insight from experienced photographers.


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## astroNikon

FWIW .. always check your Renters or Homeowners Insurance too when you get the notices... just in case you notice something awry.
Also check "Medical Payment to Others" .. in case something happens in your studio to someone.


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## table1349

Coverage.....We Don't Need No Stinking Coverage.


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