# B&W Chemicals?



## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

So, I have a few rolls of B&W film that I want to develop. However I only have C-41 chemicals (I started out doing color). Anyways I figured I would pick the brains of those more experienced than I. So what chemicals/supplies do I need for B&W developing?


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## timor (Oct 29, 2015)

There is quite a few possibilities. And a few different ideas how to. Depends on what film you have and how much trouble you are ready to go through. D76 is the most common proposal. It doesn't mean is the best, far from it. But in skilled hands not bad. Then there is Rodinal, even older formula, which made full circle and it is very usable nowadays for slower films like ISO 100 and less. Above ISO 100 the grain starts to be visible. There is HC110, standing somewhere in the middle. One can't go wrong with HC110. There are also few modern developers like TMAX Dev.
Look here and your head will start to spin:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/12-Chemicals/Black-and-White-Chemicals?attr[]=30-143
If you have few rolls and each is of different film and you want easy solution this is the simplest solution:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/16128-Acufine-Diafine-Powder-Film-Developer-1-Gallon
Of course for that money you can get enough metol, sodium sulfit and borax to mix on your own many gallons of two bath developer, but that is up to you, you know better, what make you smile.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 29, 2015)

I am an old-school guy, I use D-76, Kodak indicator stop-bath, Kodak Fixer and Kodak Hypo-Clear, and Kodak Photo-Flo wetting agent. 

Is it the best? Dunno, but all of it is made in the USA and I like keeping jobs here.


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

timor said:


> There is quite a few possibilities. And a few different ideas how to. Depends on what film you have and how much trouble you are ready to go through.



For the most part I shoot Kodak tri-x 400. However I do shoot a bit of lomography's stuff, and some other odd ball films. Grain does not bother me any in fact I love grainy film.


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## gsgary (Oct 29, 2015)

Brundo said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > There is quite a few possibilities. And a few different ideas how to. Depends on what film you have and how much trouble you are ready to go through.
> ...


You should try Rodinal it loves Tri X


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

Okay. So other than the developer, what fixer/stopper/ wetting agent would you all recommend?


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## timor (Oct 29, 2015)

Brundo said:


> , what fixer/stopper/ wetting agent would you all recommend?


Any. This things are indifferent in the beginning. Anything will do the basic job. Get whtever your local store has on the shelf.


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## timor (Oct 29, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> I am an old-school guy, I use D-76, Kodak indicator stop-bath, Kodak Fixer and Kodak Hypo-Clear, and Kodak Photo-Flo wetting agent.
> 
> Is it the best? Dunno, but all of it is made in the USA and I like keeping jobs here.


I am afraid, that now this stuff is made in Germany. By Tetenal.


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks for the speedy replies. I appreciate it.


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## timor (Oct 29, 2015)

Good luck !


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

One last question. C41 developer can be reused. Is the same true of rodinal or D76? Can everything else be reused? Sorry for all the noob questions.


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## timor (Oct 29, 2015)

Brundo said:


> One last question. C41 developer can be reused. Is the same true of rodinal or D76? Can everything else be reused? Sorry for all the noob questions.


It is OK to ask, sharing knowledge for some is a pleasure.
OK. Now we go into little deeper stuff. D76 in full strength is reusable developer. But there is a little hook. Each time you develop in it you must do it a little bit longer to compensate for the used up part of the mix. How much longer ? Nobody will tell you for sure, it is a matter of individual experience. Sure, there are tables and estimates, but at the end, everyone has to judge for himself. The whole thing with b&w film development is very much individual thing. The only method which works in similar way is tow bath developer: no matter what temperature, no matter what ISO film as long as it is properly exposed, everything in the same tank for the same 5 minutes constant agitation bath 1 and 5 minutes stand in bath 2. D76 if used with Kodak recommendations will give you developed negative where printing will be possible, but it might be far from ideal and use of it will require some calibration and adjustments to yours specific conditions. (Water, thermometer, way of agitation...) Using D76 as a one shot developer diluted 1+1 with water will give repeatable results once the proper procedure is established, no need for time adjustments for the usage. One shot stand development in let say Rodinal removes even the need to establish procedure, 2 degrees this way or that way, 3 minutes longer or shorter do not have much influence on results, however results are specific. But you might very well like them, like thousands happy users of Rodinal.
It is big world, many choices, even now at the down of the era, very interesting. My latest experiments are with Fujifilm Acros 100 developed in X-ray film developer, stand for 22 minutes. Grain is so fine I cant find it in my grain focuser under enlarger. Will post for you print made today from it if you want. But only print, I don't have film scanner. LOL


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

timor said:


> One shot stand development in let say Rodinal removes even the need to establish procedure, 2 degrees this way or that way, 3 minutes longer or shorter do not have much influence on results, however results are specific. But you might very well like them, like thousands happy users of Rodinal.



I think I'm going to give Rodinal a try. That being said what do you mean by "specific results"? Is there a proper procedure for rodinal?
I would enjoy seeing your latest experiment.


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## timor (Oct 30, 2015)

Rodinal could be used in many dilutions, from 1:10 to 1:200. Typically 1:50 is a good choice for normal, not to lengthy development with let say normal, every minute agitation. Film will have somewhat higher contrast than D76, grain should be moderate, but visible, lines should be sharp, sharper, than in D76. There is very valid reason for that. In 1:100, which was my standard dilution with Agfa APX 100 I achieved somewhat less contrasty negative, high sharpness and in 8X10 prints no visible grain. With 1:200 dilution, usually used for 35 -55 min stand development compensation should be achieved. What it means; while retaining good local microcontrast (good sharpness and detail) development of highlights (the dark part of the negative image which prints white or light gray on the paper) is slowed down preventing blocking the light during printing but development of shadows continues to reveal the detail which with standard development would be not achieved. Grain might be more visible, but it is nice looking grain, unlike D76, which produces rather ugly grain. (There is a good reason for it to.) Prints from Rodinal developed negatives usually are more contrasty, some say they display brilliance, while prints , if you used D76, have softer tonality, but also nice.
Why it is so ? It depends on two elements of the developer, the developing agent and activator. Rodinal is using p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride as a developing agent and Sodium Hydroxide, a strong base, as an activator. D76 is using metol and hydroquinone in borax. Rodinal works in pH 10 and up, borax produces something like pH 8.2 max. General contrast of the negative or print depends very much on pH. Metol in Sodium Hydroxide would also give more contrast. Then comes third element, preservative. In D76 there is 100 grams of sodium sulfit per liter, Rodinal contain 50 grams of Potassium Metabisulfite in 0>5 liter of concentrate. The difference is sodium sulfit not only prevents meto; from instant oxidation, also dissolves metallic silver, the builder of the image. Potassium Metabisulfite does it only marginally. And here is a secret of nice looking Rodinal grain versus spongy from D76. Take a look at this pictures, see the grain:
Book Nook | Photography Forum

And here my print.




Photographed with Imperial Reflex, extremely primitive, false TLR from 1960. Yet I like softness of this single element, meniscus lens. LOL
Acros 100 developed in BM2100 X-ray film developer. I discovered, that dental suppliers still carry chemicals for X-ray and they are very cheap, but top quality. LOL For $25 I have 8 liters of concentrate, for this film I used 45 ml. I have enough for over 170 rolls of 120 film. Another $25 buys 8 liters of fixer concentrate...
Colour of this picture is no accident, print was made on warm paper and I developed for that warmth. Almost sepia.
Links:
Photographic Chemical Descriptions
General Notes: Photographic Formulas
Digitaltruth Photo - Photographic Chemical Formulas and Technical Data
This for starters as it really never ends. LOL.
Cheers.


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## Brundo (Oct 30, 2015)

Thanks for all the info timor. I like the experimental photo.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 30, 2015)

timor said:


> sabbath999 said:
> 
> 
> > I am an old-school guy, I use D-76, Kodak indicator stop-bath, Kodak Fixer and Kodak Hypo-Clear, and Kodak Photo-Flo wetting agent.
> ...



Well, there goes that perfectly good theory!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for letting me know (insert sad trombone face).

Heck, most of these chemicals are easy enough to just mix them yourself from scratch. 

Kodak D-76 Film Developer


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## timor (Oct 30, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> timor said:
> 
> 
> > sabbath999 said:
> ...


Eh... Stop using that and try something else, there is a lot of stuff. And yes, D76 , no doubt, is "old school". LOL.
It was created in late twenties for motion picture industry. And failed. But what you do with tones already mixed powders ? You sell it, really cheap, to still photography suckers. But it turned out as a very good developer for pre-war emulsions and legend was born. Funny thing, top artists of that time didn't use it. There was already better stuff. Ever heard of panthermic 777 ? Magnum agency was using this almost exclusively. Since then emulsions changed enormously. No more need for developers overloaded with chemicals. Eventually even Kodak started to market for it's top of the line emulsions, top of the line ready to use developer, Tmax Dev.
You might be surprised, how little chemistry is required to develop Tmax 100 way better, than D76 can ever do. Actually D76 is not really good idea for TMX. I don't use TriX, but I use DXN, very similar emulsion, which, unlike TriX, is supposedly unchanged since fifties. Maybe. But original TriX doesn't exist anymore, emulsion was changed to the point, that Kodak changed the designation to TX. Negative looks still the same, but TX is a modern, thin layer, small grain (for ISO 400 film) emulsion.
Well, old books is fun to read, but methods described in them are not always valid nowadays.
Anyway, try Tmax Dev. Or HC110 in small bottles. Those were still made in Rochester. By Canadian company, but in USA.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 30, 2015)

timor said:


> Eh... Stop using that and try something else, there is a lot of stuff. And yes, D76 , no doubt, is "old school". LOL.



But you see the thing is I REALLY like the look of Ultrafine Extreme 100 film developed in D-76. So I use Ultrafine Extreme 100 and I develop it in D-76. I honestly don't care what other people back in the day did or did not like, they are not me, and they are not relevant to me.

I also don't care what it failed to do, I like the look of it. I use other developers but mostly I go with D-76.




A Hassy 500C and it&#x27;s person by Ken Mitchell, on Flickr


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## gsgary (Oct 30, 2015)

This is 26 years out of date Tri-X developed in Rodinal


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## sabbath999 (Oct 30, 2015)

gsgary said:


> This is 26 years out of date Tri-X developed in Rodinal



Nice!


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## gsgary (Oct 30, 2015)

Another roll that was 26 years out of date developed in Rodinal


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## timor (Oct 30, 2015)

Ha ha ! It was just my loose proposal to experiment a bit.
I like this film as well, however I just yesterday had a bid of discussion with PhotoWarehouse regarding the paper.
So, film is not bad, I wonder, if this is their own formula or what else. I don't mind (like I have any right or else to do that LOL) you using D76. My philosophy now is: with the reminder of film which is left let's go crazy and see, what really this outgoing technology could do to know, what we are loosing. As deeper and deeper I go, I discover more and more false believes, urban legends, partial schools and tied up guts surrounding it.( No wonder most people never really like it and made eager jump to digital. At least here the controls are clearly marked by numbers and mistakes cost no money. )Film photography could be really fun if used with imagination and, and fantasy ! Trying something else you may discover new qualities of your film and completely new look of your pictures. Well, just sayin...


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