# Learning to say No is hard as a beginner



## LiquidGrace (Apr 7, 2012)

When you're starting out you often want to say yes to every request, and demand made by your client. Or at least that's how I felt in the beginning. Today I had a friend of the family (whose daughters wedding I did last year) ask to do her sisters wedding. She requested that I go to a place 'only' 12 hours from where I live. For some reason I couldn't help but shake my head. She of course was just expecting to have her only pay for the wedding package. It's mind boggling how some people seem to feel entitled to certain things because they are a family friend of my mothers. I had to put my foot down and say "I could do it but my traveling expenses and accommodations for both my assistant and I will need to be paid for on top of the wedding packages." She responded back with a bunch of ... and a quick "Oh, ok........Bye then." I could read it wrong but it seems like she was expecting me to just come and do the wedding and only ever charge for the photography itself. 

I'm still starting out and took a break since moving to the US, so I could claim a small business in the US, and get insured etc here . This wedding is in 1 year and I'll most likely have everything together by then but I have to admit it's still hard saying No. But there comes a point where you have to set a limit. 

I guess I'm looking for others who have people who assume such things with them?


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## Yvonne_Dubai (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm not in your shoes at all, but I totally agree with you about saying no. It's only logical that travel expenses plus accommodation would be paid for. I understand it's hard to say no, but if they really want you to come over they'll come back to you and say that they'll pay for it all. Good luck!


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## KmH (Apr 7, 2012)

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in *The Business District* section of the forums.


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## groan (Apr 7, 2012)

KmH said:


> Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.
> 
> I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in *The Business District* section of the forums.


 
I got the feeling that they are beginning to offer it as a service, besides, you were a beginner at one point don't you think all beginners are entitled to a client?
 A bit of an odd comment on a forum that is supposed to be offering help, don't you think?


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## Josh220 (Apr 7, 2012)

groan said:


> KmH said:
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You'll get used to it. They're more forgiving of trolls, though.


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## 12sndsgood (Apr 7, 2012)

I havn't been in your shoes but i'm sure I will be one day. My thought on the matter is you have to do what you feel is right for your business. If you make exceptions to your own rules and start making changes just to get a job your not going to wind up making what you wanted and doing what you wanted. Stick to your guns. Selling yourself short is not going to help you in the end.


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## cgipson1 (Apr 7, 2012)

groan said:


> KmH said:
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Most beginners lack the SKILL to have a client, unless that client is perfectly happy with CRAP photography! Most Wanna Be Pros that we get here, know nothing about correct exposure, color balance, flash, DOF, modifiers, reflectors, lenses, or how to use their expensive (to them! $500 LOL!) bodies. 
*
When the "PRO's" are asking the simplest of BEGINNER QUESTIONS.. something is wrong!  Do you disagree with that?*


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## Austin Greene (Apr 7, 2012)

groan said:


> KmH said:
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Oh, this will be good...


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## pgriz (Apr 7, 2012)

@ liquidgrace:  The people you're involved with have no idea what is required.  So, why not put together a checklist for yourself that identifies all the steps you need to do to carry out a successful wedding engagement.  For instance (and this is just a sample so don't it for granted that I have covered everything - I am NOT a wedding photographer!):

1)  Define scope of client expectations (locations, number of photos, timing, deliverables)
2)  Write contract describing the shooting plan, the deliverables, the preconditions that have to be fulfilled by the client, the deposit, the boilerplate regarding liability, unforseen events, etc.
3)  Obtain client signature and deposit.
4)  Visit locations and determine lighting equipment needs, scout out possible shooting locations and determine the rules regarding use of light/strobes, etc.
5)  Prepare lighting equipment and backdrops
6)  Meet with client and review the shooting plan, the "must" shots, the key moments, and the overall timing.
7)  Arrange with your shooting team or second shooters the plan, the equipment to be brought and the assignments.
8)  ....

59)  process the proofs chosen by the client and produce the final deliverable.
60)  Deliver the "deliverables", review with client and get balance of contract payment and any extras.


Then send this checklist to your friend and say "this is my checklist to do a wedding.  As you can see, it represents a significant effort on my part and costs such as travel, equipment rental, hiring of second shooters, paying for production, etc. require significant outlay of cash.  Are you prepared to do this?  If yes, then we can start with step 1 on the list."

I'm sure they will say they had no idea...


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## LiquidGrace (Dec 31, 2012)

Woah, 

Sorry it took me so so long to respond to this.. I have a good portfolio built up and a strong grasp of what I'm doing. My question comes more from a place of when you finally get to the point where you start to realize that saying 'Yes' to every client request isn't necessary. Making that switch from saying 'Yes' for the sake of the experience, love of photography etc to saying 'no' when the moment and job requires it. 

I have found since this last post I've gained far more respect for my work to say no to insane requests, or to say "This will cost you extra". I have found in the past 3 weddings I've done that when I set up the boundaries and specific expectations that things go a lot smoother. Mind you there are those clients who still don't get that "No your wedding photos won't be done in a week."  Even when you spell out the turn around time in your contract. I found when I started out (when I posted this mind you I had 10 weddings under my belt so consider it more of a rant). My rant comes from clients expecting things to be free or insanely fast turn around times. My frustration comes from the almost ignorance some people have towards this profession. I found that this situation was far more geared towards beginners in the 'business' not photography if you get what I mean. I will still consider myself a beginner in the business for many years to come. I have a lot of growing to do. I have found this site and a few professional mentors to really help give me the tools I needed to become the confident photographer I needed to be. 

I'm sorry if many were offended by the fact that this was in the beginners thread or that I used the word 'client'. But I assure you I am very well seasoned with photography so the notion that I may be ignorant to photography as a whole is a rather bold assumption to make of someone you know little about. A little understanding goes a long way. Hopefully my post helped to elaborate on what I was trying to get across the first time. I felt it may be beneficial to other beginners (in the business) to hear what seasoned veterans had to say. 

I do appreciate that list and wish that many understood just what it takes to do a wedding. I have always toyed with the idea of putting a FAQ together for my blog that's nice but informative to prospective clients. Again I really think it comes down to the ignorance of just what we do.


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## Vautrin (Dec 31, 2012)

It is human nature to try to take advantage as best you can.  Also, it is human nature to be selfish and not think of demands you place on other people.

After all, how many times have you walked into a shop and said "I'm sorry, your prices are too cheap, I'm going to pay you twice what you're asking!"?

Given this, you need to understand the business mindset, and be willing to draw the line at ridiculous requests.  Otherwise people will just take advantage of you.


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## Mully (Dec 31, 2012)

KmH said:


> Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.
> 
> I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in *The Business District* section of the forums.




When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Mully said:


> KmH said:
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But who says every photographer has to go "pro"? And wouldn't a couple of years of good experience and learning benefit anyone that did want to start charging? 

We see so many that:

#1. haven't even bought a camera yet... 

or 

#2. Got first camera less than a year ago (never read the manual, have no concept of the basics, is a """natural""" light P mode photographer only, don't know how to use flash, has one bad kit lens, has "Major" ego and attitude due to Facebook telling them how great they are) 

That come on here saying they are going PRO! (and then they ask US how to shoot the next gig they signed up for, and don't have a CLUE how to shoot!)

How can we take that seriously? I think this is where the aversion to "Beginner" and "Clients" being used in the same sentence comes from!  lol!


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2012)

Mully said:


> When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time


Yes, yes, they are, BUT just like any other field, beginners need to learn, study and practice before they assume the role of a professional.  Would you want your doctor trying to remove your appendix the day after he bought his first scalpel (NOT a comment directed at the OP, just responding to this post)?


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## thetrue (Dec 31, 2012)

How does one actually determine if they are ready to "go pro" to begin with? I mean legitimately, not fly by night, unregistered and uninsured FB style.


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## pixmedic (Dec 31, 2012)

saying "NO" to doing a job for a client is a lot easier than saying "im sorry" for delivering poor wedding photos. 
if the issue is simply a matter of convenience or not actually wanting to do a particular job rather than any actual technical issues...well, I think you will  have a much shorter and less productive photography career if you are able to be pushed around by every client you talk to. stand up for something, or be prepared to fall for anything.

also....this is where a REALLY well written contract is worth your weight in gold.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

thetrue said:


> How does one actually determine if they are ready to "go pro" to begin with? I mean legitimately, not fly by night, unregistered and uninsured FB style.



If one doesn't know the answer to that question, then one is probably not ready to go pro in the first place!   (want another fortune cookie?.) lol!

One way would be comparing your photos to known working pros! (Not FB MWAC pros either!) REAL pros! lol!


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## thetrue (Dec 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> thetrue said:
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So essentially, you're telling me that when MWAC and a Walmart flash "goes pro" then it really is time for her? I hardly believe that is even close to reasonable.


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## nycphotography (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Mully said:
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Wouldn't that depend largely on how much I'm willing to pay?

The fact is that there will be a continuum in the market place ranging from absolute amateur snapshots, to omg amazing every time.

While, as an omg amazing everytime professional, it sure does feel good to talk down about the snapshot shooters, the fact is they exist for a reason.  Namely: PRICE

Yes the buyer gets (hopefully) what they pay for.  But maybe, that's good enough for them?  Who are we to judge what they want and what they buy?

It's the same in the contracting business.  The high end guys all talk smack about how all the low end guys ruin everything.  But I don't see the high end guys rushing to fill the price point w/ product either.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

thetrue said:


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NO.. Hardly!  lol! If one is truly honest with one's self appraisal, one should know whether or not they are ready to go pro! What is scary are those that lack even enough knowledge to know that they are NOT Ready! (like your MWAC / Walmart flash example above!)


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> tirediron said:
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I will gladly operate on you for free, if you will just kindly sign this waiver of liability I have! If you aren't happy with the results.. sorry, I did the best I could... I am still learning!


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## nycphotography (Dec 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> I will gladly operate on *[your wedding]* for free, if you will just kindly sign this waiver of liability I have! If you aren't happy with the results.. sorry, I did the best I could... I am still learning!



Hey, sounds reasonable to me!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> cgipson1 said:
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> > I will gladly operate on *[your wedding]* for free, if you will just kindly sign this waiver of liability I have! If you aren't happy with the results.. sorry, I did the best I could... I am still learning!
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GOOD!! Here are your wedding photos!


  

Hope you like them!   (Don't you just love my Watermark?)


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## pixmedic (Dec 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


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meh...we've seen worse wedding photos offered up here for C&C


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## nycphotography (Dec 31, 2012)

Great job!  That big watermark tastefully covered up the best man's woody and drool from watching the bride's underage sister all evening.

I knew I could count on you.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

pixmedic said:


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Yea.. you are right! (I don't think I made the watermark big enough either!) lol!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> Great job!  That big watermark tastefully covered up the best man's woody and drool from watching the bride's underage sister all evening.
> 
> I knew I could count on you.



Do you think the watermark is too.. understated? Should I make it bolder? I really want it to show me.. and my vibrant PASSION for photography! (and I know the images are a little dark, but I don't know how to use flash yet. Yes.. I had one mounted on my Rebel, I know... but none of those turned out!)


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

I took it to mean that the OP was new/beginner in the business, not new/beginner to photography.

Maybe I'm just not judgmental enough...


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## pixmedic (Dec 31, 2012)

Buckster said:


> I took it to mean that the OP was new/beginner in the business, not new/beginner to photography.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not judgmental enough...




nah, I think most of us understood that. assuming it is accurate of course. we just got a little off track.  you KNOW threads rarely stay on topic more than 10 posts or so. after that, its all downhill.


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## KmH (Dec 31, 2012)

We should thank our lucky stars this old thread got resurrected.


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## pixmedic (Dec 31, 2012)

KmH said:


> We should thank our lucky stars this old thread got resurrected.



there werent enough "new" threads that were interesting.


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## thetrue (Dec 31, 2012)

KmH said:


> We should thank our lucky stars this old thread got resurrected.


What's wrong wit old threads? This time it was actually the OP that did it, which is QUITE the shocker to me!


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## rob0225 (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Mully said:
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> > When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time
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I love these comparisons of doctors to photographers.  It's so outlandish its funny.


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

rob0225 said:


> tirediron said:
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It's especially funny when the doctor probably bought his first scalpel while still in school, not after being certified as qualified to remove an appendix, which is the start of his BUSINESS.  So, the analogy is bullspit from top to bottom.


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Buckster said:


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Not really! A dr. buys the scalpel in school so he can practice and get good at his trade... much like photographer should do. The Dr. doesn't start charging clients until after years of practice and training... again, much like a photographer should do!


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


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That wasn't at all the case in this thread, though you love to always jump to that conclusion and jump up and down making a bunch of noise about noobs shooting for money, now that you've got, what, a whole year as a "real" photographer under your belt?  LOL!


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Buckster said:


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Wrong.. been shooting since 66! Had a studio from 81 to 88.... or maybe you missed those points!  And I wasn't addressing this thread, merely your assertion that the analogy was bullspit! Not that I really care what you think!


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


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Ahhhh.... Yeah, I did miss that.  I guess 20+ years away from the craft explains your photos though.

Oh, and I really, seriously care what you think too sweety.  Your attitude here at TPF is always SUCH a joy!  Take care now, and Happy New Year!  :hug::


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

Ditto!


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## Derrel (Dec 31, 2012)

Charlie, Buckster, the way you two carry on reminds me of...well...this video!!!!  Happy New Year!!!


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

LOL!  Obviously, I'm the pretty, talented one in the video!!


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2012)

rob0225 said:


> I love these comparisons of doctors to photographers.  It's so outlandish its funny.


Doctor, Lawyer, Butcher, Baker, Candle-stick maker, pick any trade or profession you want.  The point is that people seem to assume that because you can go out and buy the tools of the [photographic] trade for relatively little money, and because there is no professional certification required (unfortunately), that it's perfectly all right to buy a camera and hang out a shingle as a "Professional".  Let's say you want to be a professional baker; does going to Wal-mart and buying an Easy-Bake Oven qualify you?  Hmmmm?


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## cgipson1 (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


> rob0225 said:
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yea.. not really that hard a concept to understand, is it? lol!


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


> rob0225 said:
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See, I think it _*IS*_ alright.  If someone can manage to sell their photos after having JUST bought their gear, more power to them.  If the people who buy them are good with the product to price ratio, who are we to say it's wrong?

Likewise, if someone can sell their easy-bake oven cakes, more power to them.  If the people that buy them are good with the product to price ratio, who are we to say it's wrong?

When someone offers a good or service, regardless of whether you think it's good or bad, and someone buys that service, that's between those two people, and it's none of your business.  If either of them have a beef with the deal after the transaction, they can work it out together or in court, but it's STILL none of your business.

Moreover, some people have a natural talent that doesn't require years of experience to perfect the genre they've decided to hang a shingle out for, yet you guys rarely ever take that into consideration.  It's just, "Oh, they haven't got X years in, so they SUCK and shouldn't be making money off it!!!!  I'M OFFENDEDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!"

It's just ridiculous that some people have to carry on like this in post after post, thread after thread, week after week, month after month, never ending.  For fk's sake, let it GO!!  It's NEVER going to change anyway.  It's NEVER going to impact your life anyway.  It's never going to MATTER in the big scheme of things anyway.

Repeat after me:

"PLEASE, OH PHOTOGRAPHIC POWERS OF THE UNIVERSE, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Then get off your high horse and go do something PRODUCTIVE.


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2012)

Buckster said:


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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point Buckster!


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


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a hundred times a month, every time Charlie derails another thread with it???  WTF is the point???


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## tirediron (Dec 31, 2012)

Buckster said:


> ...a hundred times a month, every time Charlie derails another thread with it???  WTF is the point???


Actually, I think I sort of started the de-railment in this thread.  Mea culpa...  The point is however, that on this particular point Charlie and I (and a few others here) support a position that is different than yours.  The ability to put forth and/or discuss differing opinions on a subject is after all, a large part of the reason that forums such as TPF exist.


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## Buckster (Dec 31, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Buckster said:
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Fine, we can have this same stupid argument as many times per month as you think necessary.  'Cuz it matters SO MUCH.  Looking forward to the next derailment from you guys over it.


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