# Pricing, retouching, limits, happy clients



## Balwazer

HI all,

I am sure this is not a new subject, but I am facing allot of trouble with this.

I charge the following for commercial photography including fashion, advertising, portraits and food:

$212 for one hour

$800 for up to 4 hours

$1326 for up to 8 hours

But I am still under charging because the photo retouching takes allot of my time.

In average I spend 2 hours to 3 hours when editing a fashion photo.

The client hates the idea of limiting the photos that    He or she is only getting.

The last client asked for 15 photos retouched for a 4 hours session, if we calculate this. It will mean 15x3hours= 45hours of retouching

If I hire a freelance Retoucher he will not do a good job as I want and he will charge me $30 per photo which means 15x$30=$450!!!

so how should it work??? 

Should I limit the files to like 1 photo retouched per hour booked?

Should I charge separately for retouching?

If they asked for all the photos without retouching, should I give them?

By the way I'm from Bahrain not USA, so the cost might differ but the concept is the same.


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## tirediron

My first thought is:  Why does every image need two to three hours of re-touching?  I would suggest start by reducing that through getting the image better in-camera.  If you're doing very complicated composite work and such, make sure that the client is aware of that before-hand and that the contract indicates that 'typical' retouching or enhacement can take three or more hours.  Charge the rates that you need to, and don't back down from them.  As long as the client is aware ahead of time that this is an expensive process, then you're covered.


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## Bossy

I was wondering the same. I'd be interested in seeing these images that require that kind of touching up?​


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## KmH

I'm wondering what is going on with the commercial use licensing and the creative fee.

It seems the OP is doing commercial photography, but is using a retail photography business pricing model.


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## Balwazer

Bossy said:
			
		

> I was wondering the same. I'd be interested in seeing these images that require that kind of touching up?



You can visit my website to check my work www.baderalwazeer.com


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## Balwazer

KmH said:
			
		

> I'm wondering what is going on with the commercial use licensing and the creative fee.
> 
> It seems the OP is doing commercial photography, but is using a retail photography business pricing model.



Can you explain more?


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## tirediron

Some really nice work, but do most of those really have 3 hours of PP? 

 I think Keith is referring to a per hour rate vice a per project rate.


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## Balwazer

tirediron said:
			
		

> Some really nice work, but do most of those really have 3 hours of PP?
> 
> I think Keith is referring to a per hour rate vice a per project rate.



Yes most of them, the thing is I edit the files to be delivered in the highest resolution possible and they are ready to be printed on whatever size the clients need.

So I really pay attention for the tiniest details.

And for the girls models I don't use blurring to hide imperfection, I do real pixel by pixel cleaning.

Some of the images I used doge and burn to even the skin tones.

A few in my country do this amount of detailed editing most of them using blurring and smudging the skin and make it look plastic.(unless it is done in purpose and the client insisted, it's not an option for me)

I know it is time consuming but clients already started to feel the different.

But we get back to 0 when knowing no body wants to pay extra for the extra quality you provide.

So I am stuck in the average price range but offering a more polished retouching( comparing to other competitors in my country)

Can I have example of how does it work in the US, how do you charge and how many edited images you offer? And do you give unedited photos?


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## KmH

So it seems what you are saying is, you lack salemanship skills, and cannot show your clients that your work has a higher intrinsic value than what they can get elsewhere.

I was indeed referring to the use of an hourly rate.


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## Balwazer

KmH said:
			
		

> So it seems what you are saying is, you lack salemanship skills, and cannot show your clients that your work has a higher intrinsic value than what they can get elsewhere.



I will not deny this, I'm not a great sales man.

And people here are not by default well aware of defining quality work.


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## tirediron

What may help you is having a before and after album.  Produce say, a half-dozen images and edit them to the highest standard you can.  Place them in an album with the edited version opposite the original and separated by a blank page (so that when they look at the original image, the edited version is not visible).  Now, start your pitch:  "Here's an image from a session with Susy; as you can see, there are some issues with her skin/hair/eyes/etc.  (Point out all of the issues)  Of course she's a pretty girl, but no one ever looks as good as they can right out of the camera.  Because I want my clients to leave here with images that are as beautiful as they are, I ONLY provide you with the absolute most finely enhanced (Never use words like 'edit', 'touched-up' etc) images I can.  Now of course, this level of craftsmanship does cost a little more, but all quality products do."

I still feel (and I don't mean this to sound rude) that with a little more work and practice on the front-end, you could really reduce your editing time.


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## Balwazer

tirediron said:
			
		

> What may help you is having a before and after album.  Produce say, a half-dozen images and edit them to the highest standard you can.  Place them in an album with the edited version opposite the original and separated by a blank page (so that when they look at the original image, the edited version is not visible).  Now, start your pitch:  "Here's an image from a session with Susy; as you can see, there are some issues with her skin/hair/eyes/etc.  (Point out all of the issues)  Of course she's a pretty girl, but no one ever looks as good as they can right out of the camera.  Because I want my clients to leave here with images that are as beautiful as they are, I ONLY provide you with the absolute most finely enhanced (Never use words like 'edit', 'touched-up' etc) images I can.  Now of course, this level of craftsmanship does cost a little more, but all quality products do."
> 
> I still feel (and I don't mean this to sound rude) that with a little more work and practice on the front-end, you could really reduce your editing time.



I liked the way you approach it, I wonder if this just an example or I can use it 

Is your feeling based on seeing my work? If yes then I appreciate a more clarification on how can it be improved up-front to reduce the editing?

For example when I client asks for removing a double chin, or re constructing eyeliner because the model's eyes were tearing all the time.. I don't think it is something that can be avoid before shooting.


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## MLeeK

Can you elaborate on what is taking you 3 hours of retouching?


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## KmH

He said, "I do real pixel by pixel cleaning."

Which in my opinion is overkill.


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## Balwazer

MLeeK said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on what is taking you 3 hours of retouching?



You can check my blog to see a before and after http://baderalwazeerphotography.blogspot.com

Maybe I am over doing it or maybe I am slow.

How long should it take for beauty and fashion?


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## Bossy

It depends on what your goal is. I'm just thinking your process could be much simpler utilizing the tools photoshop has. And I also think you're undercharging for commercial use.​


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## MLeeK

Your mouse over's aren't working for me. Might be my wifi. I dunno, but you are definitely a quite a bit on the slow side. There are some that will take a long time-an hour or more, but most glamor images shouldn't take an average of 20-30 minutes. 
Get it right in camera so that all you have to do is polish and smooth. If a model's got bad makeup-fix it. If she has bad hair-fix it. If you are constantly cloning and fixing things that could be fixed before the shot is ever taken then you will kill your profitability faster than lightning strikes. 
If I were shooting something like this I'd aim for an average of probably about 4 to 8 perfect images in an hour. We'll keep a reasonably slow pace and say that takes an hour per image to edit... That's 9 hours for each one hour shoot. Is that reasonable for you? I don't know. For me? I'd say no. I'd want to be at about half of that.


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## KmH

Bossy said:


> ...And I also think you're undercharging for commercial use.


It seems there are no commercial or editorial use licensing charges at all.


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## tirediron

Balwazer said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What may help you is having a before and after album. Produce say, a half-dozen images and edit them to the highest standard you can. Place them in an album with the edited version opposite the original and separated by a blank page (so that when they look at the original image, the edited version is not visible). Now, start your pitch: "Here's an image from a session with Susy; as you can see, there are some issues with her skin/hair/eyes/etc. (Point out all of the issues) Of course she's a pretty girl, but no one ever looks as good as they can right out of the camera. Because I want my clients to leave here with images that are as beautiful as they are, I ONLY provide you with the absolute most finely enhanced (Never use words like 'edit', 'touched-up' etc) images I can. Now of course, this level of craftsmanship does cost a little more, but all quality products do."
> 
> I still feel (and I don't mean this to sound rude) that with a little more work and practice on the front-end, you could really reduce your editing time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I liked the way you approach it, I wonder if this just an example or I can use it
> Is your feeling based on seeing my work? If yes then I appreciate a more clarification on how can it be improved up-front to reduce the editing?
> 
> For example when I client asks for removing a double chin, or re constructing eyeliner because the model's eyes were tearing all the time.. I don't think it is something that can be avoid before shooting.
Click to expand...

Feel free to use as little or as much as you see fit.  
With respect to you shooting and editing, I really can't offer any opinion since I've not seen your work.  I just feel, based on my experience, that it shouldn't take you as long as it does.


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