# advice from professionals



## lawpaws (Nov 2, 2012)

I am interested in getting into the photography business. This will basically be as a parttime interest/job. i have no idea where to start. What kind of camera do i invest in, what kind of lens? Do i use a photoshop program? Mainly my focus would be of people, pets and outdoor photography. should i take a photography class? any help from you guys will be greatly appreciated. thanks


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## pictureperfekt (Nov 2, 2012)

:hug::


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## Buckster (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> I am interested in getting into the photography business. This will basically be as a parttime interest/job. i have no idea where to start. What kind of camera do i invest in, what kind of lens? Do i use a photoshop program? Mainly my focus would be of people, pets and outdoor photography. should i take a photography class? any help from you guys will be greatly appreciated. thanks


What do you do for a living?  Have you taken any college courses, especially business-related courses?  Do you have any other schooling or training, either college, vocational or on the job?


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## 480sparky (Nov 2, 2012)

My answer would depend on whether you're leaning toward "This will just be for fun, and if I can make some money at it, well, all the better" or "I want to turn this in to a career to pay my mortgage with."


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 2, 2012)

I haven't had this topic come up in almost a week.  My advice, choose another line of work. Maybe French poetry from May 1803-July 1803, or perhaps something in the food serving industry, only part time though.  You'd make more money, and you'd get a cool name tag.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I haven't had this topic come up in almost a week. My advice, choose another line of work. Maybe French poetry from May 1803-July 1803, or perhaps something in the food serving industry, only part time though. You'd make more money, and you'd get a cool name tag.


QFTT!!!  Another three, four months like the last one, and I'll be able to afford a pizza (one-topping only mind).


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

just grab whatever best buy recommends. If you do outdoor photography, don't worry about getting a flash or learning about lighting, just call yourself a "natural light photographer".  also, if your photographing people, don't worry about learning about composure. Just let the people do whatever they want and call yourself a "lifestyle photographer". Make up a cool business name, start a Facebook business page,get some cheap business cards printed out. 
Post a few pictures and wait for your friends and family to comment on how great they are. next thing you know...Business is BOOMING!


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## JAC526 (Nov 2, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> just grab whatever best buy recommends. If you do outdoor photography, don't worry about getting a flash or learning about lighting, just call yourself a "natural light photographer".  also, if your photographing people, don't worry about learning about composure. Just let the people do whatever they want and call yourself a "lifestyle photographer". Make up a cool business name, start a Facebook business page,get some cheap business cards printed out.
> Post a few pictures and wait for your friends and family to comment on how great they are. next thing you know...Business is BOOMING!



Sarcasm?  Bitter maybe a little bit?


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > just grab whatever best buy recommends. If you do outdoor photography, don't worry about getting a flash or learning about lighting, just call yourself a "natural light photographer".  also, if your photographing people, don't worry about learning about composure. Just let the people do whatever they want and call yourself a "lifestyle photographer". Make up a cool business name, start a Facebook business page,get some cheap business cards printed out.
> ...



sarcasm? probably. 
bitter? nah, i got nothing to be bitter about. 
Ironic? if you cant see it, oh well. 

and how are you so sure that wasn't a serious suggestion? now you are just speculating on what YOU perceive to be an insult. 
bitter much?  :mrgreen:


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## kathyt (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> I am interested in getting into the photography business. This will basically be as a parttime interest/job. i have no idea where to start. What kind of camera do i invest in, what kind of lens? Do i use a photoshop program? Mainly my focus would be of people, pets and outdoor photography. should i take a photography class? any help from you guys will be greatly appreciated. thanks



I would start by spending a few days searching through this forum and breaking these questions down in bite size pieces.  What you just asked for is alot.  Start with one thing at a time.


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## manaheim (Nov 2, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I haven't had this topic come up in almost a week.  My advice, choose another line of work. Maybe French poetry from May 1803-July 1803, or perhaps something in the food serving industry, only part time though.  You'd make more money, and you'd get a cool name tag.



I read an article recently where they listed the top 10 worst careers and photography and graphic artist were in there in like the top 5.  Very low hopes of making any real money, everyone wants to do it, yadda yadda yadda...


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Oh, boy. This is complicated. 
First read this http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ning-business-building-house.html#post2707594
Then begin playing the lottery. 
Then you  need to get an education in photography and how it works
Then you need a MAJOR education in business. 
If you expect to make more than minimum wage (if that) in the next 3 years-don't do it. 
Expect your initial outlay to be in the vicinity of $5000 to $10,000. That's IF you make your decisions wisely and don't make any initial low end camera choices and mistakes. If you intend to do weddings scratch that $5000 figure and expect it to be $8000 to $15000.


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## JAC526 (Nov 2, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> JAC526 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



Ohh man I'm just messing with you.  No hard feelings I hope.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> ...Expect your initial outlay to be in the vicinity of $5000 to $10,000. That's IF you make your decisions wisely and don't make any initial low end camera choices and mistakes. If you intend to do weddings scratch that $5000 figure and expect it to be $8000 to $15000.


I would submit that MLeek's estimates are *VERY* conservative.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

JAC526 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > JAC526 said:
> ...



what? nah man, i was just messing around. hence the :mrgreen:. they need a "tongue in cheek" icon. Its all good. :hugs:


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## JAC526 (Nov 2, 2012)

I understand why people get snarky with these questions though.

If you are asking a forum how to "go pro" you don't know nearly enough to even consider it.


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## Overread (Nov 2, 2012)

tirediron said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > ...Expect your initial outlay to be in the vicinity of $5000 to $10,000. That's IF you make your decisions wisely and don't make any initial low end camera choices and mistakes. If you intend to do weddings scratch that $5000 figure and expect it to be $8000 to $15000.
> ...



Very very conservative! You'll be bargin hunting for some of the gear (esp lighting setups and lets not even mention finding a studio/workspace). 

OP - learn to do photography first you can't just get a camera and start earning months later. I mean you can, but most of those "businesses" don't pay any insurance or tax and are mostly just hobbies earning a little on the side from friends and family and nothing more. They don't pay the bills, they don't generally even remain working for very long. You've a long way to go before you can think about starting a business. 


If you are keen and serious consider apprenticing/interning under another photographer before you even think about getting out and going it alone.


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## lawpaws (Nov 2, 2012)

First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, we wish you luck!


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## ptl2010 (Nov 2, 2012)

Take a step back, and just be a photographer as a hobby first. Buy an entry level camera, check out some online tutorials on camera basics like the exposure triangle, composition, and lighting, and as you learn you'll find out what you like to shoot, and along with that you'll learn more about how your equipment works and what you'd need to accomplish what you want to do. Once you've got the equipment that works for you, and you are confident in your skills, you can use them on your friends/family or talk to local businesses about doing work for them "for your portfolio" at a low price. This will help you see how well you work with people and how you handle different situations as a photographer. 

If you're doing this for "part time" or "just for fun but it's ok if I make money" then this is as far as you need to take it. If you do good, you can continue to contact local businesses doing work for them, your friends friends will see the portraits you took and ask you to do there's, and though pixmedic joked about a facebook page, you can also get a few deals here and there through social networking and sharing your work online. For example I started my Facebook page just this June and have gotten a few deals out of it, even though I just post my favorite pictures and some of my video work to share with friends/family.

This is actually how I do things, since I have a full time job as a video editor/camera operator, I do a few projects here and there on the weekends. I do get paid, and since I started I have went from charging pennies to a more "average" photographers rate now that I'm more comfortable with my skills.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.



seriously? you ask about starting a business, in a specific area, and proceed to inquire about how to do EVERY aspect of it. 
and honestly, my suggestion DOES seem to somewhat work for quite a few people so...maybe you should consider it. 
also..who was claiming to be a professional?  
as far as learning from our remarks...you basically asked the forum how to start, setup, and maintain an entire photography business...
what do you want from us? to walk you through the entire process holding your hand? try narrowing down your questions just a bit and see if you dont get a better response.  

but just so you dont feel TOO butthurt over this. heres some honest and heartfelt advice. (although i am NOT a professional photographer)
you will probably need a DSLR. research a few that are within your price range. go to the store and try a few out. buy the one you like best. 
NOW, use whatever kit lens came with the camera for a little while and see what you like photographing, and where your lens reaches its limits. then you will know what other lenses you should buy. research the OEM lenses -vs- third party lenses to find which is best for your needs and budget. most people will recommend fixed aperture lenses for professional use. 

software wise, photoshop is the benchmark for photographers. adobe Lightroom is less expensive, and does a LOT of what you will need to do, but not as much as photoshop will. there are also many other editing programs. We use photoshop CS5 and Lightroom 4.1 so i cant comment on the others, but Google should turn up plenty. also, search the threads here for more editing software reviews. 

Hope this helps you some. good luck.


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## SCraig (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.


No, actually you were asking a silly question.  Much as if we came on an LEO forum and said, "Hey Guys!  I want to be a police officer.  What kind of gun should I buy first?  Should I get a big gun or a little gun?  And what kind of bullets do I need?  And where do I get my uniform?"

And before you jump in and say it's not the same, IT IS!

My suggestion?  Get a camera and start learning.  In a year or two come back and ask the same question again.  Or better yet read the dozens of topics on this same subject posted by people who already know how to use a camera.


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)




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## ghache (Nov 2, 2012)

*Let's keep it polite, shall we?  Thanks! *


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.


Cool down!  You're new here, so welcome to the forum.  Since you're new here, you're probably not familiar with who's who on TPF.  Several of the people who replied to you are professional working photographers.  They know of what they speak.  SCraig's analogy of the question on wanting to be a policeman and asking "What kind of gun should I buy?" is bang on.  

For some reason, people seem to think that photography is a field where you can buy a camera, hang out a shingle and start making money hand over fist.  It's not.  There's a HUGE amount of skill, knowledge and experience required to be a good photographer, and it isn't accumulated overnight.  

To offer another analogy:  When you first joined the police force, I'm guessing you weren't tasked to go out and investigate a murder or kidnapping by yourself the first day you reported in, were you?  You were probably paired up with a more senior, experienced constable who mentored you.  Photography is the same thing.  You need to learn, gain experience and knowlege.


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.



Wow...what a major attitude problem. You GOT honest answers. You must be one hell of law enforcement "professional" with such a smart-ass attitude on you.


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## ghache (Nov 2, 2012)

Derrel said:


> lawpaws said:
> 
> 
> > First of all have 2 careers. I own a business and am in law enforcement. For the idiots who replyed back with smart remarks actually call themselves professional? I was asking an honest question and wanted honest answers. No one can learn from your idiotic remarks. maybe you are speaking from your own experiences because if I came to you inquiring about doing photos and you answered in this way I you would certainly NOT get my business.
> ...



There is a bounty on you right now.


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## lawpaws (Nov 2, 2012)

No, actually you were asking a silly question. Much as if we came on an LEO forum and said, "Hey Guys! I want to be a police officer. What kind of gun should I buy first? Should I get a big gun or a little gun? And what kind of bullets do I need? And where do I get my uniform?"

Heeheee....have to say..that was a good one


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## SCraig (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> No, actually you were asking a silly question. Much as if we came on an LEO forum and said, "Hey Guys! I want to be a police officer. What kind of gun should I buy first? Should I get a big gun or a little gun? And what kind of bullets do I need? And where do I get my uniform?"
> 
> Heeheee....have to say..that was a good one


Given some of the Barney Fife clones we have in this part of the country it's not that far-fetched either


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## Rwsphotos (Nov 2, 2012)

Your asking a very loaded question there with no simple overnight answer.    First off the attitude your displaying here will not be of any use in getting people to use you as a photographer.   Now as for cameras what kind of answer can any of us give?  We all have differing opnions on make forget model.  NIKON,  CANNON, SONY, FUJI only to mention just a few.. Get the point.  As is also mentioned your going to need more than just the body and kit lense Flash, tripod ect. Than you need the knowledge to use your equipment and terms that we will be throwing at you the first time you post for c&c. I get the feeling this is a thread that is doomed to be locked so hope you gleam the info you need quickly insted of snarking at those of us who know what your getting into.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> No, actually you were asking a silly question. Much as if we came on an LEO forum and said, "Hey Guys! I want to be a police officer. What kind of gun should I buy first? Should I get a big gun or a little gun? And what kind of bullets do I need? And where do I get my uniform?"
> 
> Heeheee....have to say..that was a good one


But you see, it's the same thing. The camera and software are just a very small portion of this. Just like your uniform and gun are absolutely minimal in your profession. It's all in the knowledge and training.

The investment in the tools to do the job definitely costs more for us than for you, but they are still very minor in the big scheme of things. It's the knowledge that is the key.

First understand that we who charge the "big bucks" for this *aren't making money* hand over fist. IF we manage or business WELL we are making somewhere between 25% and 30% of the amount we bring in. So, when a photographer sells a session and a piece of artwork that has nearly 20 or so hours invested in (and that is most definitely an accurate amount of hours for a 1 hour photo session) for $1000 they're making hopefully $300. That's $15.00 per hour. They have to pay their own taxes, retirement and benefits out of that.  Seeing how you have a profession that I assume pays part of your benefits, you would have a bit less going out in those benefits than a full time photographer. That photographer might net $8 to $10 per hour. 

In order to make that $8-10 per hour that photographer has to have excellent business sense. The benchmark is actually more near the 25% mark. So, they'd have had to have gotten an excellent business education. They also have to know their stuff if they're selling $1000 sessions and that's quite an education. Photographers don't just pick up a camera and because it's a high end DSLR it makes great photos. There is a LOT of education in it. The $50 sell it all and the kitchen sink photographers who come and go like the wind aren't even covering their costs-that's why they go away. They aren't making any money at all. If you LOOK at the images they create compared to a high end photographer they aren't so hot. If they are that great and the photographer wants to stay in business their  pricing takes a significant leap AS THEY GET THE BUSINESS SENSE. SO... that paragraph in summary: They are a PROFESSIONAL and should be paid as such, right? What is all of that education worth? You wouldn't expect to pay say a teacher at the high school minimum wage. You wouldn't expect a police officer to earn minimum wage-even though those people are paid extremely low salaries when you consider their profession. 

Let's revisit the 20 hours so you understand that figure when talking about a one hour photo session. I am sure you are saying "that's absurd. It's an hour!" While I am telling you about a one hour session for me, think about ONE police call that takes an hour to sort out on location. What goes into it before, during and after. 
How a one hour session works for us: The call or email comes in and we have to answer it and talk to the potential client. That's probably a good half hour of time invested from start to finish. The client books a time slot and we have to do all of the associated documenting to go with it-record it on the calendar (obviously), create the client file, mail or email out the new client information packet and make notes about the session so when we get to the session we haven't forgotten everything. 1/2 hour of administration time. Before the session we have to make sure our gear is ready for it-batteries charged, changed, lenses cleaned and ready, memory cards, contract- all that jazz. This might take up 15 minutes if you own your own studio or up to an hour if you are working on location. I am going to average at 1/2 hour. If you are an on location photographer you have to drive to the session, shoot the session, drive back-don't forget to put gas in the car to do this session. One hour just turned into 2 (assuming the location is within the same area you live.) THEN you have to unload the memory card into the computer, sort and rate the images for processing. Do your paperwork in the client file documentation, file the signed contract, enter the session fee paid in  your accounting software, etc. 1 hour. Then there is processing. IF you are GOOD you can process the session in an hour or two. If you are still learning how to process efficiently it could take 4 or more hours. THEN there is actual editing and retouching. That can take anywhere from a couple of hours to 10 hours depending on the skill of the editor. We'll average it at 5 hours for the beginner. You have to proof the session to the client. Whether that means putting an on-line gallery up or you actually do in person proofing is up to you and that's a whole other conversation. Assuming  you've  had that conversation  and do in person proofing there's 2 more hours. The client orders their pieces. You have to go back to your editing program and prepare those files for print-cropping and sharpening for print. That's easily an hour. Place the order with the lab and go back to do your accounting and file paperwork-another hour. The order comes in from the lab and you have to receive it, check it, package it, email or call the client to tell them it's in, deliver it. And finally you have to close out the session in your files and software, archive it, file your receipt from the lab, enter all of that and tie  up all of your loose ends. Another hour. 
I didn't include the time it takes to create the paperwork, price lists, customer packet, contracts, etc that you use in your business. You have to have those and you have to create them and  you have to continually update them. There is a very small amount of time, but it is time that has to do with every session. 
Those estimates are pretty reserved for a relatively new photographer. The time will be more until  you get GOOD with the processing and editing and have a system in place to maximize time for you. That takes a few years to really master.


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## manaheim (Nov 2, 2012)

I love MLeek.


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## CCericola (Nov 2, 2012)

I lover her more.


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## panblue (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> I am interested in getting into the photography business. This will basically be as a parttime interest/job. i have no idea where to start. What kind of camera do i invest in, what kind of lens? Do i use a photoshop program? Mainly my focus would be of people, pets and outdoor photography. should i take a photography class? any help from you guys will be greatly appreciated. thanks



 Research the market before you invest any serious money. Identify photographers who appear to be successful. Model your whole M.O as closely as possible on what they do. How they present and promote, what equipment they use.

You could try to find a part-time role as a photographer's assistant. You could join a local photo club / regional society. You could attend workshops and/or study part-time.


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

manaheim said:


> I love MLeek.





CCericola said:


> I lover her more.


THANK YOU! I feel all warm and fuzzy today! 
I love you too! LOL!


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## Overread (Nov 2, 2012)

Will the MleeK fan club please form an orderly queue - behind me


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

Overread said:
			
		

> Will the MleeK fan club please form an orderly queue - behind me



I am #1 Mleek fan!!!


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## Derrel (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm glad to know that we all gave the OP "idiotic" answers...


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

You guys have no idea the boost and smile you are giving me today... It's been one of THOSE days here that all the little things conspire to send me back to bed with a good book! 
Not a major anything has gone wrong. Just every little stupid annoying thing!


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

Derrel said:


> I'm glad to know that we all gave the OP "idiotic" answers...



I liked your answer Derrel. I'll pass my warm and fuzzy slippers on to you if you need them.


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## tirediron (Nov 2, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> THANK YOU! I feel all warm and fuzzy today!


Mehh... that's just dust in your feathers!


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

tirediron said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > THANK YOU! I feel all warm and fuzzy today!
> ...



You mean THAT is what the dust was for? To keep  me warm? Crap. I dusted. Crap, crap, crap.


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## NE-KID (Nov 2, 2012)

Visit other camera stores to see what they have in stock and see their sale prices and base your info on what other leading camera shops have to sale. Start off small then when your ready make the jump to higher end cameras. Also keep in mind it also depends on your area where you live and who wants want and how they want to pay for it.


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## lawpaws (Nov 2, 2012)

The reason i asked this "loaded question" was because i thought this was a beginners forum. i was asking everyone their professional opinions. noone will ever know the answer unless they start from the beginning and ask stupid questions.  didnt realize it would get the sarcasm that it has gotten. sorry if i stepped on anyones toes. i was only wanting helpful advice and people took it as a slamming session.


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## sm4him (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> The reason i asked this "loaded question" was because i thought this was a beginners forum. i was asking everyone their professional opinions. noone will ever know the answer unless they start from the beginning and ask stupid questions.  didnt realize it would get the sarcasm that it has gotten. sorry if i stepped on anyones toes. i was only wanting helpful advice and people took it as a slamming session.



:scratch:
The beginner's forum is for beginners, not those who are ready to launch into photography as a business. So this post doesn't belong there.
But the Business District forum is for people who ARE ready to launch into photography as a business; of course, THOSE people should already know what you're asking, because they've learned their craft. So this post doesn't belong there, either.

I'd go on, but I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to go home and watch the Princess Bride's "battle of the wits" scene between the Dread Pirate Roberts and Vizzini. 

EDIT: OH, and I win the MLeek Fan Club sweepstakes--because I already mentioned how awesome and helpful she is, two days ago, in the "Things I've Noticed About TPF" thread. :lmao:


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## MLeeK (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> The reason i asked this "loaded question" was because i thought this was a beginners forum. i was asking everyone their professional opinions. noone will ever know the answer unless they start from the beginning and ask stupid questions.  didnt realize it would get the sarcasm that it has gotten. sorry if i stepped on anyones toes. i was only wanting helpful advice and people took it as a slamming session.


You asked the PROFESSIONALS, not the beginners. Yes, you're a beginner but the question wasn't to other beginners. You asked for professional information and you got it. 
You got some excellent and detailed answers, yet you threw your attitude around-and still got more help. What didn't we answer for you?
What gear do you need: that depends on  you and YOUR style, YOUR business and YOUR budget. Basically you need a camera body-top grade crop sensor or preferably a full frame sensor. A back up body. 
Wide angle zoom f/2.8, telephoto zoom f/2.8 would be the minimum, but for portraiture you may prefer primes in which case you'd need a wide, medium and telephoto prime at the very least. F/1.8 or faster. 
A dedicated speedlite for the camera. 
A back up option for your lenses and flash. 
Studio lighting: that's extremely variable, but a full, basic setup would be 3 lights with stands, softboxes, speedrings and a radio slave setup. You'll want a few accessories for them like eggcrates and gels, weights for the stands and other odds and ends. 
Memory cards-GOOD ones, not the $5 wal mart specials CF or SD will depend  upon the camera. 
A computer designed to handle PhotoShop and/or Lightroom
A monitor that is designed for editing
A monitor calibration tool and software
A back up system for saving your files, raid is much preferred, but not exactly NECESSARY. 
Accounting software system
File system

Should you take a photography class? Well, we did mention that you'd need an education in photography. A class would be a start. There are MANY classes you should have. If you take  them at the college, on line or learn them by buying books and doing it on your own are up to you. Each person learns differently. 

I don't know what else you want here. We've answered you and given  you much direction. Start your education and your business plan. There are tons of resources out there to help you with that. We can  help you if you want or you can do it on your own.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)




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## KmH (Nov 2, 2012)

The forum you started the thread in was not the correct forum. Beginner's don't start photography businesses. You made an invalid assumption (ass-u-me) rather than doing the required due diligence.

Had you scrolled down to - *The Business District - An area to discuss the business of photography *and share your professional work -
you would have found the forum in the Business District section the thread was subsequently moved to:
*General Shop Talk*
_*Looking to make your hobby into a business?*_ Already in business? *This is the place for you.* Discuss marketing, pricing, legal issues and other ideas relating to the business of photography.


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## sm4him (Nov 2, 2012)

pixmedic said:


>



*FTW!! *Thanks for doing what I was too lazy to bother with.


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## lawpaws (Nov 2, 2012)

Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

seeing Vizzini laugh and fall over never gets old!
i cant say HOW many times ive watched this movie.. one of my all time favorites.


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## sm4him (Nov 2, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> seeing Vizzini laugh and fall over never gets old!
> i cant say HOW many times ive watched this movie.. one of my all time favorites.



Mine too; I can pretty much quote it from memory. The book is even better, though.  I'd read it several years before the movie came out, and it's one of the extremely rare instances where I actually LOVED a movie when I'd already read the book.


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## pixmedic (Nov 2, 2012)

still my favorite scene!


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## The_Traveler (Nov 2, 2012)

CCericola said:


> I lover her more.



May I watch?


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## The_Traveler (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.



Buy a camera, start taking pictures, learn to take good pictures, then you are ready to maybe start a business.

You may not realize just how insulting it is for you to 1) ignore the fact that this is a difficult craft that takes time, energy and skill to master and 2) to just barge in without looking around and finding the umpteen similar threads and 3) get exercised because we won't write a book for you.

Let me repeat.
*
Buy a camera, start taking pictures, learn to take good pictures, understnd if you like it and are any good and then you are ready to maybe start a business.*


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:
			
		

> Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.



If you wanted to be a professional race car driver where would you start? Probably with learning how to drive. You might want to learn how to take photos to see if you even have the ability to do that before you decide to start a business


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## panblue (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.



Deciding what you are passionate about photographing, even when it's a sh*tty scenario. 
Identifying who might pay for those pictures..if at all, there is a paying market for what you want to do.

From there, copy those who do it well and make money from it. Once you find you are attaining the minimum 
  standard required to be credible, to make the business self-sustaining ...don't slack-off! Try to grow your business with innovation and professionalism.


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> The reason i asked this "loaded question" was because i thought this was a beginners forum. i was asking everyone their professional opinions. noone will ever know the answer unless they start from the beginning and ask stupid questions.  didnt realize it would get the sarcasm that it has gotten. sorry if i stepped on anyones toes. i was only wanting helpful advice and people took it as a slamming session.




Perhaps only 1% on this forum are full time working professional photographers and the question was directed at getting advice from professionals.  I am one of the 1% that does this for a living and I wouldn't suggest that anyone even attempt a business in photography unless they have spent a few years with a camera, just learning photography.  When I see these type of questions, I just look at them as another person thinking "hey I can take pictures, how tough can it be, and then I can then get into concerts and sporting events free"

There are a lot of amateurs on this forum that know more about photography than I do, what they may not have is the skill and experience to translate that knowledge into creating great images consistantly everyday, and the majority don't want that anyway.  They enjoy photography as a hobby, and some are very good at it.

Your question comes up on this forum every week, and the answers are all cut and pasted.


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## Rwsphotos (Nov 2, 2012)

Beginners don't generally start a business so wrong question in the wrong forum.  NO this is not the beginners forum so what you got were answers from professionals who have done their du diligence and research. Answers that apparently arnt to your liking due to the attitude your have given us for answering you. The fact that a bunch of photography professionals  were willing to give you professional info is something that I find is a rarity but you snub it because we were honest and didn't pull any punches.  What more help can we give you with out buying your equipment and writing your business plan for you?


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## Tee (Nov 2, 2012)

Don't forget a Facebook page advertising 50 hi-res images for $25 with full copyright and printing rights. 

But in all seriousness the first question I am asking is how much annually do you want to make from photography?  I think focusing on the business side of his question would be a better start to explaining why this isn't a pick up a D3200 from Best Buy and hang out a shingle in 2 weeks.  

A favorite timeline of mine:
http://www.honghuazheng.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/A-photographers-learning-curve.jpg


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## orljustin (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.



It's called google.  Try using it.  Geez.


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## KmH (Nov 2, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> Im not ready to LAUNCH anything....just needed advice on where to start.



Start at the beginning.


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## Tony S (Nov 3, 2012)

A quick Google search of "how to start a photography"  comes up with these tips............ it took 7 seconds to type it in and open the first one.

  A little effort on your part may have avoided a lot of the consternation and condemnation by folks here that see this question asked frequently by people who think it's going to be a snap to make money taking pictures.

Starting a Home-Based Photography Business

How to Start a Photography Business

How to Start a Photography Side Business | Chron.com

How To Start a Career in Photography


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## texkam (Nov 3, 2012)

> I am interested in getting into the photography business.


As mentioned earlier, start with a business degree.

If you are interested in how to take pictures, joining this forum is a good first step. Search, read, ask, listen, learn.


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## BlairWright (Nov 3, 2012)

Here is the best advise I can give you

1. Don't start as a business, start as a hobby. Until you know what your style is you will waste a ton of money on gear you may or may not need

2. If you're serious about starting a photography business you will need to consider spending a large amount of time learning photography (you mentioned that you already run a business so I'll leave that piece alone), you can't just pick up a camera and be good enough to make money with it, it simply doesn't work that way

3. Shoot what you love and not what pays, you will get better shots, not get bored, and eventually get paid for it if your good enough

4. Keep your standards high and NEVER sell product that doesn't meet your standards

5. Be the friendliest guy in the world, it will help your business

6. Always, and I mean always carry a camera

7. Always carry business cards and give them out to everyone that asks about the camera your carrying around since you will always have it with you 

Good luck, it's tough out there


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## jhodges10 (Nov 3, 2012)

Don't listen to these people, I've been on here a couple of months and it's pretty clear that most of them are just long in the tooth and probably need to hang up their cameras. Most of the snarky comments you received are from people who lack your passion, vision and drive. The truth is photography is super easy if you get the right equipment. Whatever you do make sure you buy everything brand new, most of the people selling used gear are trying to cheat you. I would recommend a Nikon D3x as your camera body. It doesnt have an Auto setting but you'll get the hang of it. Next the holy trinity of lenses 14-24 f2.8, 24-70 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8. That's really all you need. The only way your business could fail then is if there's not enough demand in your area for photography services. In the unlikely event that your business fails I'd be happy to throw you a lifeline and buy your equipment for say 50% of your cost. Now get out there and start shooting and make sure to post lots of photos so we can all see how great they turn out.


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## IByte (Nov 3, 2012)

You might want to look at the current competition around your area.  Whether you're going against the pros or the FB amatures you need to find a niche.  To sum it all up:

1.  Photography is not a start up turn-key business.

2.  Watch this clip and you will get an idea of what really goes into those shots you see in a magazine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qg4a0e2cYE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Good luck an appreciate your law enforcement service.

PS.  If you want to be a portrait photographer you really need to be personable and patient.


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## manaheim (Nov 3, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> Don't listen to these people, I've been on here a couple of months and it's pretty clear that most of them are just long in the tooth and probably need to hang up their cameras. Most of the snarky comments you received are from people who lack your passion, vision and drive. The truth is photography is super easy if you get the right equipment. Whatever you do make sure you buy everything brand new, most of the people selling used gear are trying to cheat you. I would recommend a Nikon D3x as your camera body. It doesnt have an Auto setting but you'll get the hang of it. Next the holy trinity of lenses 14-24 f2.8, 24-70 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8. That's really all you need. The only way your business could fail then is if there's not enough demand in your area for photography services. In the unlikely event that your business fails I'd be happy to throw you a lifeline and buy your equipment for say 50% of your cost. Now get out there and start shooting and make sure to post lots of photos so we can all see how great they turn out.



I read this twice and I still can't tell if this is serious or not.


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## JackandSally (Nov 3, 2012)

manaheim said:


> jhodges10 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't listen to these people, I've been on here a couple of months and it's pretty clear that most of them are just long in the tooth and probably need to hang up their cameras. Most of the snarky comments you received are from people who lack your passion, vision and drive. The truth is photography is super easy if you get the right equipment. Whatever you do make sure you buy everything brand new, most of the people selling used gear are trying to cheat you. I would recommend a Nikon D3x as your camera body. It doesnt have an Auto setting but you'll get the hang of it. Next the holy trinity of lenses 14-24 f2.8, 24-70 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8. That's really all you need. The only way your business could fail then is if there's not enough demand in your area for photography services. In the unlikely event that your business fails I'd be happy to throw you a lifeline and buy your equipment for say 50% of your cost. Now get out there and start shooting and make sure to post lots of photos so we can all see how great they turn out.
> ...



Glad to know I'm not the only one who wondered if it was serious or not!


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

You absolutely need a 1D/D4 or better. The vast majority of pros out there shoot Hasselblad and PhaseOne. You'll need at least $10,000 to even think about starting, $25k would be better. Make sure you get a few dozen of those shiny disk thingies. You need at least a 25.

(trololololol)


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## MLeeK (Nov 3, 2012)

JackandSally said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > jhodges10 said:
> ...


Nothing like setting someone up for failure. 
And getting some cheap gear out onto the market!


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## The_Traveler (Nov 3, 2012)

Please note that we have entered *the Snarky Zone*.

That feeling in your lower body is your leg being gently pulled.
It _may_ get worse from here on.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

^^^ I think i'm always there


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## jhodges10 (Nov 3, 2012)

You guys have been taking the wrong stance on responding to these posts. Instead of the "Are you stupid and lazy?" responses we need to encourage these people to buy the gear we all want. In a few months (or less) the market will be flooded with cheap, nearly new gear and we can get it dirt cheap!  

Thought about telling him to get Hassy gear but even at 50% I can't afford that. I figure I threw out a Nikon suggestion so the next one can go Canon and we'll alternate after that.


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## jhodges10 (Nov 3, 2012)

MLeeK said:
			
		

> Nothing like setting someone up for failure.
> And getting some cheap gear out onto the market!



You got it!


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lots of successful photographers bumble around in auto mode, pretending to be "professional" before eventually succeeding. If you want to set them up for failure, make it spectacular. Have them spend WAY too much on unnecessary gear that they have no idea how to use. Like high end cameras and 23 too many reflectors.


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## jhodges10 (Nov 3, 2012)

manaheim said:
			
		

> I read this twice and I still can't tell if this is serious or not.



BTW, I couldn't have asked for a better compliment to my post than this.


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## KmH (Nov 3, 2012)

If the OP had "passion, vision and drive" he wouldn't have had to ask on a photography forum. He would have gotten a camera and just started doing it.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

^^ exactly. When I realized I couldn't afford film any longer, I got a point and shoot. If you love photography, taking pictures is more important than having ideal gear.


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## jhodges10 (Nov 3, 2012)

KmH said:
			
		

> If the OP had "passion, vision and drive" he wouldn't have had to ask on a photography forum. He would have gotten a camera and just started doing it.



Aren't you a mod? You're not supposed to pile on with the rest of us! Your job is to sit back and laugh until the noobs get so mad they start putting expletives in their responses and then ban them.


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## lawpaws (Nov 3, 2012)

You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.


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## CCericola (Nov 3, 2012)

Is it just me or is it getting a bit deep in here?


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## 12sndsgood (Nov 3, 2012)

No one cars how much money you have.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



That's Mr. Amateur to you, buddy!


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## kathyt (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



Who is going to be the first one to correkt hiz speling?


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

Good for you on the business side, that would definitely be a great help when you look at the bottom line  while starting out in photography. Draw the line and put about $20,000  below it, that is your starting point, now after spending a year trying to work your way to zero and find that you have managed to drop to -$30,000  you will understand some of these comments.  So continue laughing at the sarcasm.

No one really cares how much money you make from your other businesses, this is a photo forum.  If you want to join a forum where you can tell everyone about the car you own, how big your house is and what your bank account is, join that one. But don't come in here and start pretending your better than anyone else based on your income.  

My truthful answer to your question, If you believe that you are really good enough to be a professional photographer, buy all the gear you can, quit both your other jobs for an entire year and live off the money you make with the camera. That's how it works.  Learn to enjoy Kraft dinner and having a lot of doors slammed in your face because the world of "professional photographers"  is saturated with dreamers.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:
			
		

> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



So successful you have to be a cop too?  You never mentioned what your "business"  is.  And im pretty sure most of us never claimed to be anything BUT amateurs so... I really dont think we take offense to that. I do hope that you did actual research when you started your other "business",  or did you get all of your information from another internet forum?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



If you're really seriously make more money in a month than I do in a year, why the f*ck do you need to start another business? Do you collect them or something?

I'm the one laughing now. Tall tales are always humorous.


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## unpopular (Nov 3, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that if the OP gets a $5000 camera, my $350 camera will still take better pictures.


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## MLeeK (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.


You're great at making one regret helping you! We'll be glad to allow you to be so amazing all by yourself, after all, we mere mortals are so beneath  you. k? Bye
Yep, that's the general cop attitude. And they wonder why they get such **** from people.
Go away.


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## Tee (Nov 3, 2012)

KmH said:


> If the OP had "*passion*, vision and drive"



Ahhh. The ole passion cliche. Anyone else roll their eyes when they read this on a bio? Ranks right up there with caution tape, train tracks, and a vintage chair in the middle of a backlighted wheatfield. Not to worry, the next replacement adjective for passion will be...whimsical. Trust me folks, it's gaining ground.

BTW, apologies for anyone on here who has passion in their "about" section.  I have not read anyone's profiles on here.


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## kathyt (Nov 3, 2012)




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## JackandSally (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



I can see you yelling at your computer screen as you type this.  If you're really getting that aggravated by advice you got from strangers, you don't belong on a forum.  Period.  Part of forums is having a tough skin, if you don't have it and have to resort to calling strangers names for being 100% honest about a field that everyone thinks they can do but most can't, you're the pathetic one and need to find another business to break into.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

Tee said:
			
		

> Ahhh.  The ole passion cliche.  Anyone else roll their eyes when they read this on a bio?  Ranks right up there with caution tape, train tracks, and a vintage chair in the middle of a backlighted wheatfield.  Not to worry, the next replacement adjective for passion will be...whimsical.  Trust me folks, it's gaining ground.



I can see it now... I got my first DSLR last week and i have been taking pictures like crazy.  Im going to start charging for my pictures because photography has always been my whimsy. Yea... Whimsical sounds good.


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

Tee said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > If the OP had "*passion*, vision and drive"
> ...



I have to say that I really try not using the word passion when to comes to photography, especially when i've been in the snow for 2 hours at -40 standing on the side of a hill shooting snowboarding, being passionate about photography at that point, really doesn't come to mind.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

Maybe they should make a movie about it... The Passion of the Photographer


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## Tee (Nov 3, 2012)

pixmedic said:


> Tee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's usually found in the context of:

"I describe my style as funky and whimsical with a touch of class for those treasured memories".  Translation: I use Florabella actions.


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## PixelRabbit (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



Ok Mr. Officer/Business owner I normally keep my nose out of these kinds of threads because I don't feel I'm qualified to comment on the business side of things yet but oh wow, you are taking the cake here!

Your OP started out like any other amateur who thinks that buying gear is the key to making money at photography and nowhere in the thread did you convince us otherwise.  For some reason you decided that telling us that you are an officer AND a business owner already was going to make us suddenly realize you aren't the same as the other bazillion amateurs who come here from all walks of life (EXCEPT a solid TIME investment in the skill of photography) and think that buying the "right gear" will make them a photographer. I mean ANYONE can take a good picture with today's technology right? So as your OP states that's all you need, the right gear, how utterly insulting right out of the gate.

As a business owner I would expect you to have SOME understanding of any kind of business and KNOW what is involved on a very basic level, did you even take time to think around a photography business? I would assume that already being an owner you would have some respect for and pride in your end product, oh that's right, it's all about the right gear, no skill involved, the camera will take care of that for you, just point... click... cha-ching you are rollin' in the dough!

You got responses from professionals in this thread, they gave you good solid advice and information in between the jabs brought on by your serious disrespect for anyone who has put in the time and effort to learn the craft and hone their skills to offer up a quality end product that they are proud of.  

If you wanted to learn how to purchase a camera one day and be a professional the next day you chose the wrong place to ask, you would have gotten the answers you WANTED on Facebook, so try there, I'm sure someone will give you the guidance you seek.


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## baturn (Nov 3, 2012)

Is anyone besides me just a little worried that this guy carries a badge and gun?


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

baturn said:
			
		

> Is anyone besides me just a little worried that this guy carries a badge and gun?



I can see him giving the "i make more money in a month than you do in a year"  speech to everyone he pulls over for going 5 miles over the speed limit.


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## jamesbjenkins (Nov 3, 2012)

lawpaws said:


> You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.



You may be the one laughing, IDK and don't care. But you're also the one who obviously doesn't know a damn thing about photography, and yet starts their first post here by declaring their intention to start a photography business. Hence why you've been the recipient of so much sarcasm. 

And it's been my experience that truly successful people don't have to tell you they are. 

GTHO.


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## manaheim (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't honestly think this thread is really serious.  I think we're all suckers.


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## pixmedic (Nov 3, 2012)

manaheim said:
			
		

> I don't honestly think this thread is really serious.  I think we're all suckers.



The bunny could be right.... Guys probably not a cop OR a "business owner".


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## imagemaker46 (Nov 3, 2012)

manaheim said:


> I don't honestly think this thread is really serious.  I think we're all suckers.



You may be right, but we have had several ones in the past that I also thought were a joke and then found out that the Op was in fact serious, stupid, but serious.


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## Overread (Nov 3, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> lawpaws said:
> 
> 
> > You are all a bunch of LOSERS. Grow up. I am a very successfull business owner and probably make more money in a month then any of you do in a whole year. Someone on here messaged me and said the ones who replyed with sarcasm was just a bunch of amatuers. So Im the one laughing now.
> ...



Click the little number in the top right of all the informative posts you wrote using the middle mouse button (the one under the scroll wheel*). Then in the new tab that opens bookmark/favourite the page and give it an appropriate title. Now you've got those great answers all ready for next time  




*if you're on MAC you probably have to hold down two or three keys somewhere on the keyboard and insight a few lines of prayer before clicking the single mouse button three times or something like that


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## IByte (Nov 3, 2012)

We got trolled!


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## tirediron (Nov 3, 2012)

IByte said:


> We got trolled!



*Very possibly, but in any case, I think that this thread has served its purpose (although I can't for the life of me think of what that purpose might have been).  *


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