# I hate working for people



## CNCO

Its funny, I got into photography a while back to take the best picture possible of my daughter and her childhood etc... From that I evolved to a motorsports challenge and I enjoy shooting motorsports and sports. Now I am not the best in the world but I do take some pretty good shots or so I have been told. What I am sick n tired of is the business aspect of photography. No one wants to pay us for our services only the images we sell. What a complete joke, show up to my event do your thing and if you sell, you sell.

Not to pick on wedding photographers but I doubt there is one wedding photographer that will show up to a wedding and sell the images to the bride n groom. Its a set fee for the day as every other event should be. I have invested close to 3k in equipment and I will say that I am done with the showing up to an event to just sell my images.

The problem is that if you keep denying clients you have nothing current to show a new potential client. Any ways to get around this?


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## Bynx

I'd say until the time comes when you are so good and your photos are so distinctive that when someone sees one they know you shot it. When you are that good then you can call the shots. In the mean time its a paying hobby for you. The reason I never ever want money for my photos is because first, I'm not good enough, and second its fun for me. When it stops being fun and I think of the money then Id give up the camera and buy into another hobby. I know what you're saying about your time being valuable and if wedding photographers get paid for their time as well as their prints why shouldn't you? Are you asked by someone to attend the events? If yes, then tell them your rate and how you expect to be paid. Ten years ago I said I hated working for people. I stopped and never have, and never will again.


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## CNCO

Well the thing is I am being asked to shoot sports in the spring n summer. I'd like to upgrade my body but there is no point of me doing so if I shoot sports n get paid on the images I sell. Sure I could make 1000$ a weekend, I could make 0$. There are companies that expect you to have the nicest equipment n pay you nothing. Sure its a hobby / supplemental income thing but we should be respected for our knowledge and services. Doing sports I'd like a d700 or d7000. For family photos my d80 and sb-900 will be just fine.


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## Bynx

Is there a way to come to an agreement? You get paid a flat rate and for that they get so many prints. That way you will be guaranteed a certain amount of money and they are guaranteed a certain number of prints. They should have some confidence in you if they want you to show up so they should also have confidence they will get satisfactory prints. Remember, in the end, whatever you choose to do is YOUR choice. And you can never get stupid people to have respect for the talents of others. Continue to have fun with your camera. By the way if I wanted to upgrade my camera it would be for the sake of taking better pics of my family rather than taking pics of someone else's.


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## gsgary

How do you sellprints ? i print on the day with a dye sub printer, next weekend i am shooting at a 400+ dog agility show but this year i'm notshooting action shots i will be setting up a studio and shooting portraits of the dogs because i have found it to be a bigger earner, i don't think $3k is much to spend a dye sub printer costs £1000 plus my camera gear i hate to think what it's worth


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## KmH

CNCO said:


> *I hate working for people *


The business aspect of photography is mostly about people/business/marketing/promotion/salesmanship skills, and less about photography skill.


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## skieur

To paraphrase and corrupt a quote from current television advertising related to Canadian banks:  "If you hate working for people, then don't work for people."

I work for companies or organizations and I get paid for projects, productions, presentations, so my time is automatically included in my rates.

skieur


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## flea77

I apologize if this sounds rude, but if you are that upset with the _business_ of photography, get out of the _business_. Make it a hobby, don't charge for anything. In any business you have to market, wheel and deal, ignore those who won't pay and go for those who will. 

One problem you have is you seem to think 3k is a lot for photography equipment. Heck, my last lens is a 3k lens, by itself. 3k in equipment is what the father of the football player in highschool has at his son's game.

Next problem is your target. Most shots in sports today are for web use (72dpi so a nice 6mp camera be overkill) or to print in the newspaper (you have seen the quality of those, right?). Then you have every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying a camera wanting to shoot for free. Why should they pay you? Until you can confidently answer that question you are in deep trouble.

Allan


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## imagemaker46

If you want to play photographer and make money you have to use the right gear, improve your skills, hustle your ass off and deal with people. If you hate dealing with people then just stick to doing it as a hobby.  You like shooting sports but according to your list of gear you are under-equiped for the majority of sports. With digital and the cost of gear dropping and getting better all teh weekend amateurs with full time jobs are buying gear and out there giving photos away.  You have a full time job and yet you also want to cut into the professional full time photo market, eveytime this happens some full time guy is losing out, guys like you are taking food off the tables of the professionals. What gets me is that you are on here complaning that you aren't being treated nicely by people, or respected by people for your skills and experience.  You can't make enough hobby money, you ever wonder how your hobby money affects the pro that owns all the right gear, that has real bills to pay, that waits for a pay cheque from some deadbeat client, and still has to work his ass off trying to find new clients everyday of the week? Only to find out that some amateur has offered to cover the event ofr a free pass and give away the photos.

Working with people is what this business is all about, if you don't like working with people, shoot flowers.


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## chammer

imagemaker46: Can you please give it a rest already? I've read a number  of your posts in Cinka's thread under General Shop Talk that kept  regurgitating this same old BS, and now you're taking over this thread  with it. Oh boohoo, poor pro can't make it anymore because of some  hobbyist. Times  change. Things change. Adapt, or gtfo.

People here are looking for advice to either turn pro or assistance with being pro. I of course can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think too many appreciate some "pro" showing up out of the blue with no history here crying about how us amateurs and hobbyists are killing the industry. Get over yourself.


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## c.cloudwalker

chammer said:


> imagemaker46: Can you please give it a rest already? I've read a number  of your posts in Cinka's thread under General Shop Talk that kept  regurgitating this same old BS, and now you're taking over this thread  with it. Oh boohoo, poor pro can't make it anymore because of some  hobbyist. Times  change. Things change. Adapt, or gtfo.


 
Hey chammer, we don't see you much anymore but this is a very good post. Am I the only one here who thinks this guy has lost his job to an amaturrrrrrrrrrrrrre?


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## chammer

Hi, you! Aye, I lurk more than post anymore. I don't have much to offer, and my shots are kinda in a transition period while I figure out some stuff so I don't post them much either. Although, I did fall in love with the 5Dc as was suggested last year...so much so that two weeks ago I picked up a 5D Mark II. Really enjoying this full frame stuff. 

...and yea, it does seem to be the case with this guy that he's had a job or two stolen maybe. I hate to be harsh or the like to anyone when I post, but from what I've read of his it's nothing but whine whine whine. I just couldn't hold my tongue.


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## PhotoWrangler

The reason that wedding photographers get paid for their time, is because the clients WANT them there. They NEED them there.

People don't go to a sporting event for the photography, they go for the sports. They don't NEED a photographer.

It's the same reason that Car Lovers Carwash makes more money than the drive through at the corner Chevron station. People go to Car Lovers with the intent to get their car washed. People go to the Chevron for gas, the carwash is just the $7 button you push on accident after you fill up.


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## flea77

ChristopherCoy said:


> The reason that wedding photographers get paid for their time, is because the clients WANT them there. They NEED them there.
> 
> People don't go to a sporting event for the photography, they go for the sports. They don't NEED a photographer.
> 
> It's the same reason that Car Lovers Carwash makes more money than the drive through at the corner Chevron station. People go to Car Lovers with the intent to get their car washed. People go to the Chevron for gas, the carwash is just the $7 button you push on accident after you fill up.



I have to disagree. People go to weddings to get married just like they go to Chevron to get gas, they hire photographers to help remember or preserve the event. Sports are the same, they need a photographer just as much for the newspapers, sports magazines, yearbook, etc. 

Allan


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## imagemaker46

Seems that I have made more new friends on here than expected. I realize that my personal views aren't too popular, can't say as I really care if they are or not. I express an opinion from the pro side and all the other camera owners get upset. I have offered constructive comments on here, and negative ones as well, but I really haven't told anyone to stfu or gtfo.  So I'm new to this forum, at what point do I get to have an opinion, so what if I showed up and pissed a few people off, I could have come in and said "all is well with the photo world, everyone have a joy joy day, shoot some more flowers and dogs and pretend to be a concert photographer/wedding/sports photographer as it's the easiest thing to do", it's all good that seems to be how all mindless drones on here want a photo forum to be like.  Sorry not the way I am, I don't take this stuff personally, I just tell it like it is. I think everyone on here is wonderful and doing a wonderful job taking wonderful photos.

 Is that better? Are the kiddies happy now?


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## chammer

To be a part of a community means getting to know them and their customs before just coming in and telling everyone that they're wrong and you're right. That's I meant as that's what I'm seeing. I don't care how harsh or honest someone is, I welcome it. Tell me if my stuff is crap...I don't care. I will try and improve next time, and always will. Many here are the same, but yes...there are also many here who are just looking for the ooh's and aah's because their family says they take amazing photos and want to have other photographers agree.

This is a very diverse community, and as such, there are diverse methods, philosophy's, etc. The only wrong thing I see is people coming in without getting to know the community and immediately telling people this is how it is and every way else is wrong. Sorry, but I don't buy that crap. I'm sorry that amateurs are taking your jobs, but this life is nothing but one big competition. If you can't take it, then try something else. What you do does not affect me. What I do should not affect you. Even if that means taking a job of yours or vice versa. There's always going to be another job, and you should concern yourself more with how you can best market yourself to land those jobs rather than what job Uncle Bob with his new DSLR just "stole" from you.


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## imagemaker46

How long does it take to get to know everyone in this online community?  If I look at an image and it isn't a good image, should I hold off until I "get to know" the person before saying that.  When you frist started on this forum did you wait for months to make a comment? I doubt it.  If someone posts an image, if someone makes an incorrect statement, if someone expresses their opinion, how long does a person have to wait before responding.  Seems you didn't wait too long before you started to trash my comments, when did you take the time to get to know me? You know nothing about me, or what my background is in photography, other than the small pieces I have shared on this forum in the past week.  I know absolutely nothing about you, what background you have in photography, what you do day to day for work, or school. Do I really care to get to know everyone on this forum, not really.  I look at an image and based on my experience and skills as a photographer can tell if it is good/bad and why.  What I can't do is make everyone happy, well I could, but telling everyone that they are wonderful would be a lie.


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## PASM

:thumbup:


imagemaker46 said:


> Seems that I have made more new friends on here than expected. I realize that my personal views aren't too popular, can't say as I really care if they are or not. I express an opinion from the pro side and all the other camera owners get upset. I have offered constructive comments on here, and negative ones as well, but I really haven't told anyone to stfu or gtfo.  So I'm new to this forum, at what point do I get to have an opinion, so what if I showed up and pissed a few people off, I could have come in and said "all is well with the photo world, everyone have a joy joy day, shoot some more flowers and dogs and pretend to be a concert photographer/wedding/sports photographer as it's the easiest thing to do", it's all good that seems to be how all mindless drones on here want a photo forum to be like.  Sorry not the way I am, I don't take this stuff personally, I just tell it like it is. I think everyone on here is wonderful and doing a wonderful job taking wonderful photos.
> 
> Is that better? Are the kiddies happy now?


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## SunnyHours

I'm no pro, but still I can make comments on how someone can improve a picture or if their work looks professional or how they can make better, smarter buisness...but everything you say needs to be said in a certain tone. Don't just barge in and shout at everyone! There's a way to say things, and there's a way to be honest about what you say without being harsh


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## imagemaker46

I know that I haven't said it lately but everyone on this forum is wonderful, all the camera owners do a wonderful job and if they don't there is always someone that will point them in the right direction with the latest information they have read. It's all about making everyone happy. I hope everyone has a real joy joy day.


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## Bynx

What we are talking about here is how the digital age has changed the lives of professional people who worked hard to get where they were just to have digital come along, and make it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to go out and buy a computer, a cheap camera, pirate some software, and call themselves artists, and photographers. Everybody on this forum isnt wonderful imagemaker. The noisy ones lurk in the shadows saying nothing until they can come out and make some noise. They dont comment on photo posts or the comment by the OP, but are quick to pounce on something someone says in the form of an opinion, especially if its an unpopular opinion. Its pissing rain right now so not a joy joy day. But Im going to make the best of it.


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## imagemaker46

@Bynx,I was being sarcastic with my comments. What you said is absolute truth. It's good to hear someone else say it.


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## Jesse Coffman

I'm thankful for the digital age, the photos look far better now "in my opinion" than they did back in the day.


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## KmH

Bynx said:


> What we are talking about here is how the digital age has changed the lives of professional people who worked hard to get where they were just to have digital come along, and make it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to go out and buy a computer, a cheap camera, pirate some software, and call themselves artists, and photographers.


 Photography has always been that way, digital has had nothing to do with it.

What is different is the Internet, which makes more of those mostly Teresas, Debbies, and Hanna's more readily apparent.

Note too that it is the retail part of the market that see's the vast majority of neophyte, cheap camera, don't know what TTL means, family, kid, natural light, bottom feeders, and not the commercial market where you actually have to know WTF you are doing to make any money.


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## Jesse Coffman

KmH said:


> Bynx said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we are talking about here is how the digital age has changed the lives of professional people who worked hard to get where they were just to have digital come along, and make it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to go out and buy a computer, a cheap camera, pirate some software, and call themselves artists, and photographers.
> 
> 
> 
> Photography has always been that way, digital has had nothing to do with it.
> 
> What is different is the Internet, which makes more of those mostly Teresas, Debbies, and Hanna's more readily apparent.
> 
> Note too that it is the retail part of the market that see's the vast majority of neophyte, cheap camera, don't know what TTL means, family, kid, natural light, bottom feeders, and not the commercial market where you actually have to know WTF you are doing to make any money.
Click to expand...

 
Everyone has to start somehwere, don't they? You guys are almost sounding like you believe no one else should ever enter into photography until you decide to leave it. Must be nice the pros knew everything there is about photography, the second they picked up the camera, and didn't need to learn.


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## imagemaker46

Digital is the best and worst thing that has happened to photography, probably much like the guys that said 35mm  would do away with  medium format.  I'm not going to get into this again as I have already gone though this and been crusified already for saying anything about the weekend professionals. I will just say that yes everyone has to start somewhere and that right now digital is the camera, when I started it was film and I progressed to digital 10 years ago, when I felt that digital cameras had the same feel as film cameras.  What has changed is that because of digital people who have spent a very short time in photography are becoming self proclaimed experts, without having worked their way up to that point.  I can only draw on my own experience and the photographers that I grew up working with, we had  respect for those that had been working as photographers before of us. We learned from them, we didn't bash them at every turn and proclaim that we were better.  What I find now is that because digital has in fact, made it easier to turn out better photos in a shorter period of time that some, not all, weekend photographers show no respect for those that worked though the  film generation and are now in the digital generation.  Yes there are photographers, and I include myself, feel we can play "king of the hill"  But the reality is that there really isn't a hill, the hill is just experience and skill, and it takes time to climb that hill.  What digital has done is allow people to climb the hill faster with technology, but they still don't aquire the experience to be as high on the hill as they believe they are.

So now that I've said that, hand me the hammer and nails.


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## Bitter Jeweler

Jesse Coffman said:


> Everyone has to start somehwere, don't they? You guys are almost sounding like you believe no one else should ever enter into photography until you decide to leave it. Must be nice the pros knew everything there is about photography, the second they picked up the camera, and didn't need to learn.



Yes, everyone does have to start somewhere.
But is buying a camera and starting a "business" WHILE you are still _learning_, the right way to do it?


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## Jesse Coffman

imagemaker46 said:


> Digital is the best and worst thing that has happened to photography, probably much like the guys that said 35mm would do away with medium format. I'm not going to get into this again as I have already gone though this and been crusified already for saying anything about the weekend professionals. I will just say that yes everyone has to start somewhere and that right now digital is the camera, when I started it was film and I progressed to digital 10 years ago, when I felt that digital cameras had the same feel as film cameras. What has changed is that because of digital people who have spent a very short time in photography are becoming self proclaimed experts, without having worked their way up to that point. I can only draw on my own experience and the photographers that I grew up working with, we had respect for those that had been working as photographers before of us. We learned from them, we didn't bash them at every turn and proclaim that we were better. What I find now is that because digital has in fact, made it easier to turn out better photos in a shorter period of time that some, not all, weekend photographers show no respect for those that worked though the film generation and are now in the digital generation. Yes there are photographers, and I include myself, feel we can play "king of the hill" But the reality is that there really isn't a hill, the hill is just experience and skill, and it takes time to climb that hill. What digital has done is allow people to climb the hill faster with technology, but they still don't aquire the experience to be as high on the hill as they believe they are.
> 
> So now that I've said that, hand me the hammer and nails.


 
I've never seen anyone disrespect the old timers in photography, or at least I havn't, nor will I. Though, I'm seeing a lot of disrespect towards new photographers, which confuses me to say the least.

At least you don't have to deal with getting too old for your profession, which happened to me. <winks>


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## Jesse Coffman

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Jesse Coffman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has to start somehwere, don't they? You guys are almost sounding like you believe no one else should ever enter into photography until you decide to leave it. Must be nice the pros knew everything there is about photography, the second they picked up the camera, and didn't need to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, everyone does have to start somewhere.
> But is buying a camera and starting a "business" WHILE you are still _learning_, the right way to do it?
Click to expand...

 
I would say, 'Yes', and 'No'. If someone is willing to pay a student (this happens in many professions so you know) to do the work, instead of a professional, shouldn't the customer be allowed to choose?

Next time you drive by a very large stone job, or especially a very large brick job, I'd bet you money there are more beginners on that wall, than there are professionals. The difference is, those professionals welcome the help, and are not bitter to teach the new bucks the trade.

Aside from that, in regards to something like 'wedding photography', it needs to be a seasoned professional doing the photos, "in my opinion". But what would it hurt for me to hire someone new to take photos of my freshly painted, heavy equipment?


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## Bitter Jeweler

Jesse Coffman said:


> Aside from that, in regards to something like 'wedding photography', it needs to be a seasoned professional doing the photos, "in my opinion".


 
Yet these new photgraphy businesses are doing weddings all the time. Thanks for providing evidence of my point.


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## Jesse Coffman

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Jesse Coffman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from that, in regards to something like 'wedding photography', it needs to be a seasoned professional doing the photos, "in my opinion".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet these new photgraphy businesses are doing weddings all the time. Thanks for providing evidence of my point.
Click to expand...

 
That's just one area of photography, is it not? What is wrong with a beginner trying to capture sports shots, and possibly capturing a shot that people want to buy? The sentence following that one I had hoped would solidify my point.


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## imagemaker46

@jesse, as far as not seeing or being aware of other photographers not respecting the older guys that have experience as professionals, try reading through most of these forum threads.  As Bitter Jeweler said the number of people suddenly becoming wedding photographers is a prime example of people jumping into a business they aren't experienced enough to do well. The same applys to sports, yes there are all kinds of weekend professionals shooting sports, they show up at arenas set up and claim to be good at shooting sports, what they are is digital camera owners, that have bought a couple of laptops, a decent camera one lens, usually a 70-200 2.8 and opened a business as sports photographers. Sure they may end up shooting photos that people will buy, but what they are selling is MacDonald's food when the are claiming to be selling the Ritz Carleton food. They have started a business on weekends while they are still learning how to shoot. The standards that people accept as good is usually mediocre at best.


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## FranDaMan

But since when do you decide what is good ? If people buy it, its up to their standards isn't it ?
If I am the customer, I make the decision which Image I find good enough to pay for. Not you or anyone else.
The people nowadays seem to want the McDonalds photographs


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## Jesse Coffman

imagemaker46 said:


> @jesse, as far as not seeing or being aware of other photographers not respecting the older guys that have experience as professionals, try reading through most of these forum threads. As Bitter Jeweler said the number of people suddenly becoming wedding photographers is a prime example of people jumping into a business they aren't experienced enough to do well. The same applys to sports, yes there are all kinds of weekend professionals shooting sports, they show up at arenas set up and claim to be good at shooting sports, what they are is digital camera owners, that have bought a couple of laptops, a decent camera one lens, usually a 70-200 2.8 and opened a business as sports photographers. Sure they may end up shooting photos that people will buy, but what they are selling is MacDonald's food when the are claiming to be selling the Ritz Carleton food. They have started a business on weekends while they are still learning how to shoot. The standards that people accept as good is usually mediocre at best.


 
I'm new to the forums, so I have not seen what others 'here' do. If they are degrading to the pros, then shame on them. They need to badger those pros for advice, not degrade them. Although I've had pros in the past try to sell me photos they thought were extraordinary, because of course they could do no wrong. When in fact, to me they were utter crap. They never once listened to me when I was telling them what I wanted, but instead showed me what they thought was best. Keep in mind a lot of new photographers probably have experienced this as well, so they hold a grudge towards pros, because there are quite a few pros out there, who act like this. I was one of those people who traveled 100 miles to a studio, because none of the photographers in my area, would listen to me, and give me the photos I wanted for my family.

I find it hard to believe that you would have an issue with a new photographer shooting a bunch of photos, laying those out in front of the customers, and letting the customer decide. Look around the internet, you'd be suprised at the number of remarkable photos that were caught by people who knew nothing about cameras. Quite a few of the worlds greatest inventions were accidents.

I won't get into your McDonalds analogy, because than we'd have to assume peoples 'tastes' are wrong. And that opens up another can of worms. <grins>

Above all else, shouldn't a persons work, and the way they present themselves speak for them moreso than the number of years they've been shooting photos?


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## imagemaker46

Some of the best sports shots were as a result of professional photographers that didn't  understand the sport and got caught in a place where the action happened right in front of them, it was 100% luck.  Luck plays a huge part in photography, right place, right time.  Based on my experience I can tell whats a good image and whats a bad one. The average person buying photos from the fast food photographers are buying a photo of their kid playing sports and if they don't have a choice and the photo is poor, they will still buy it, regardless of the quality. I don't care one way or the other, my problem is that some of these weekend professionals are really arrogant. I make it a point to look at their web sites when I can, and the arrogance flows though them, but the quality doesn't.  If people want to hire these guys that's fine, like I said people are willing to settle for less and if they walk away happy with a ****ty photo of their kid, good for them.


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## Jesse Coffman

imagemaker46 said:


> Some of the best sports shots were as a result of professional photographers that didn't understand the sport and got caught in a place where the action happened right in front of them, it was 100% luck. Luck plays a huge part in photography, right place, right time. Based on my experience I can tell whats a good image and whats a bad one. The average person buying photos from the fast food photographers are buying a photo of their kid playing sports and if they don't have a choice and the photo is poor, they will still buy it, regardless of the quality. I don't care one way or the other, my problem is that some of these weekend professionals are really arrogant. I make it a point to look at their web sites when I can, and the arrogance flows though them, but the quality doesn't. If people want to hire these guys that's fine, like I said people are willing to settle for less and if they walk away happy with a ****ty photo of their kid, good for them.


 
Arrogance is bad, no matter what.

The reason people settle for less, is because the 'so called' better photos are too damn expensive. That's probably the number "one" reason a lot of people are getting into photography. I mean look at your own prices. Are you selling everything you do, as diamonds?


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## camz

Video killed the radio star...


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## KmH

Jesse Coffman said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bynx said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we are talking about here is how the digital age has changed the lives of professional people who worked hard to get where they were just to have digital come along, and make it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to go out and buy a computer, a cheap camera, pirate some software, and call themselves artists, and photographers.
> 
> 
> 
> Photography has always been that way, digital has had nothing to do with it.
> 
> What is different is the Internet, which makes more of those mostly Teresas, Debbies, and Hanna's more readily apparent.
> 
> Note too that it is the retail part of the market that see's the vast majority of neophyte, cheap camera, don't know what TTL means, family, kid, natural light, bottom feeders, and not the commercial market where you actually have to know WTF you are doing to make any money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone has to start somehwere, don't they? You guys are almost sounding like you believe no one else should ever enter into photography until you decide to leave it. Must be nice the pros knew everything there is about photography, the second they picked up the camera, and didn't need to learn.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but you don't get it, at all. I didn't insinuate *any* of what you wrote after you quoted me.

Apparently, you have a reading comprehesion problem.

There always have been bottom feeders. There always will be bottom feeders. As always 1 out of every 500 bottom feeders will wind up with a viable retail photography business and 499 will fail, to be replaced by 500 new bottom feeders.


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## Jesse Coffman

KmH said:


> Jesse Coffman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Photography has always been that way, digital has had nothing to do with it.
> 
> What is different is the Internet, which makes more of those mostly Teresas, Debbies, and Hanna's more readily apparent.
> 
> Note too that it is the retail part of the market that see's the vast majority of neophyte, cheap camera, don't know what TTL means, family, kid, natural light, bottom feeders, and not the commercial market where you actually have to know WTF you are doing to make any money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has to start somehwere, don't they? You guys are almost sounding like you believe no one else should ever enter into photography until you decide to leave it. Must be nice the pros knew everything there is about photography, the second they picked up the camera, and didn't need to learn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry, but you don't get it, at all. I didn't insinuate *any* of what you wrote after you quoted me.
> 
> Apparently, you have a reading comprehesion problem.
> 
> There always have been bottom feeders. There always will be bottom feeders. As always 1 out of every 500 bottom feeders will wind up with a viable retail photography business and 499 will fail, to be replaced by 500 new bottom feeders.
Click to expand...


Right to the insults huh? Sad really.

I wasn't sure, that's why I put in the phrase; "You guys are almost sounding like you believe" before I continued with what I said. Your entire post couldn't be anything but a demeanor to anyone, who doesn't classify themselves as professionals. And you continue on with the insults, which is comical at best. Did I just encounter a troll on a photography forums? O.O


----------



## manaheim

I love to watch people shout at the rain.

"This business sucks because of reality!"

Um, well, ok... thanks for sharing.


----------



## imagemaker46

@ jesse, no I absolutely don't sell my photos as diamonds, many of the photos I have no one else will ever have, and many of them have a great historical value to the Canadian Football League, but I also know what the market will hold and am selling the photos for  quite a bit less. I do sell them for commercial use at a much higher fee. I may very well shoot diamonds but but they aren't sold that way. I give people quality and I don't overcharge, never have.


----------



## Jesse Coffman

imagemaker46 said:


> @ jesse, no I absolutely don't sell my photos as diamonds, many of the photos I have no one else will ever have, and many of them have a great historical value to the Canadian Football League, but I also know what the market will hold and am selling the photos for quite a bit less. I do sell them for commercial use at a much higher fee. I may very well shoot diamonds but but they aren't sold that way. I give people quality and I don't overcharge, never have.



Good for you. I'm glad to hear some are willing to do as you do.


----------



## imagemaker46

Jesse, it's not really a choice, it comes down to selling or not selling.  Part of understanding the professional photo world is understanding the people I deal with. I know lots of pros that would rather not sell a photo because they believe that it's worth more than people are willing to pay. I used to shoot for a card company shooting NHL hockey, they paid me very well for the photos, but in reality it was just a photo on a piece of cardboard, and some of the rookie cards ended up being worth hundreds of dollars, for a picture on a piece of cardboard, right now I can sell those photos for $15.  It all comes down to what the market is willing to pay for a product, and there is a fine line between selling and not selling.  I'm happier selling, even if i'm not always getting what I believe it's worth.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

I sell everything I do as diamonds, sometimes sapphires. :greenpbl:


----------



## CNCO

wow wow wow, sorry for not checking this thread in a while. first off imagemaker46 dont ever comment on my threads again. you have no validity or credentials in my opinion. sucks to be you mr know it all and lost out to an amateur. 

all im trying to say is that i have a pretty good knowledge of photography and videography and i have a creative eye(so i have been told). my thing is that im sick n tired of people that want us to work for free. i wont do it anymore. i do not need the money nor stress of a photography start up business. i have a full time job and thats where i focus on. if i can get some side jobs to justify my equipment cost great, if not oh well.

you have to know how to use your equipment, if i gave some guy a d3x he wouldnt know what to do with it. does that make him a photographer? exactly think 5 times before you comment on my threads.

everyone else i do appreciate your tips and ill put together some kind of closure and go from there.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Hey! Weekend warrior. 

*YOU DO NOT OWN "YOUR" THREADS!*


----------



## CNCO

its my thread and ill cry if i want to!


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Are you crying because your shift key is broken?


----------



## imagemaker46

CNCO. I'm not even going to re-read what I said in this thread. If you don't like the comments I make well that's too bad, I really don't care. Enjoy your full time paying job, buy the cameras that you can afford, sell your photos to who ever wants to buy them, work for free, I really don't care. Whatever spins the hamster wheel in your head.


----------



## imagemaker46

CNCO, I did in fact go back to the original post that opened this thread and re-read it. You seem to be complaining about not getting hired to shoot events, and that people only want to see what you shoot before they buy. As you are just starting out shooting sports, and have said that you try to do the best you can that's the best attitude to have. Has anyone ever commented on the hockey you have on your flickr site, www.brianciancio.com I had a look, and being as I'm in a great mood tonight, I'll just say, if you are using those images to try and attract a client to hire you to shoot hockey, I'd reconsider showing them any of those images. I have stated my views as a professional and how things have been affected by digital and the weekend warriors and was attacked for my honest views. I have not personally attacked anyone on here unless provoked by those that don't understand. You have been told that you shoot good sports pictures, I thought one of your motorsport images was pretty good and one hockey image was good. As a beginner you are using the gear that you can afford to use and and that's fine, and I'm sure you know how to use it to the best of your abilities. One question, how long have you been shooting?

Oh ya and sorry I posted to your personal thread, I didn't know there was a personal thread rule.  What credentials of mine were you looking for?


----------



## PhotoWrangler

CNCO said:


> wow wow wow, sorry for not checking this thread in a while. first off imagemaker46 dont ever comment on my threads again. you have no validity or credentials in my opinion. sucks to be you mr know it all and lost out to an amateur.




Wasn't someone around page one or two speaking about the disrespect of old pros? Case in point.


----------



## Bynx

When you ask a question or even make a statement hoping for some feedback, what you get are people's opinions. Their own PERSONAL OPINIONS. If you dont happen to agree with those opinions why bother attacking the person? Every time someone gives an opinion which isnt popular, or kissing someone's a$$ they get personally attacked. Get over it and just move on if you dont like what gets said. And dont bother asking a question you arent going to like the answer to.


----------



## imagemaker46

Everyone does have an opinion, I agree with much of what is said in the forum. As this forum is mainly amateurs I understand that some of the comments are coming from those that don't really understand how professional photography really works, as a professional my comments and opinions are coming from what I know and understand. I value opinions from anyone, until their opinions are nothing more than attacks on what I know.  Some people understand and appreciate the information that is put forth by myself and other professionals.  Some of the others just decide that they are right and and everyone else is wrong, even if they don't have the experience or knowledge to back up what they say. It is still their opinion, but it may be  based on incorrect information.  

I get a little sarcastic with some of my comments, but don't get me wrong I take working as a photographer very seriously, and don't appreciate being told how to do the job I've been doing longer than most on this forum have been alive.


----------



## Jesse Coffman

@CNCO

I hope you're a lot more respectful when face to face with your customers.


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## Jarrod268

I haven't seen anyone in this thread actually act like a professional. I see quite a bit of discontent and knee jerk adversarial reactions intended to mark territory.

 if I were your client and this is how you represent yourself.... How you show value over the beginner...i  had rather have an enthusiastic, non jaded entry level professional than an old, grumpy, elitist pro.

Act like a pro.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## manaheim

Bynx said:


> When you ask a question or even make a statement hoping for some feedback, what you get are people's opinions. Their own PERSONAL OPINIONS. If you dont happen to agree with those opinions why bother attacking the person? Every time someone gives an opinion which isnt popular, or kissing someone's a$$ they get personally attacked. Get over it and just move on if you dont like what gets said. And dont bother asking a question you arent going to like the answer to.


 
I dunno, I found it very funny that he decides who gets to respond to his posts going forward.


----------



## manaheim

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Hey! Weekend warrior.
> 
> *YOU DO NOT OWN "YOUR" THREADS!*



Maybe if he peed on his thread?  Would that dictate ownership?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

manaheim said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! Weekend warrior.
> 
> *YOU DO NOT OWN "YOUR" THREADS!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if he peed on his thread? Would that dictate ownership?
Click to expand...

 
Most definitely!


----------



## imagemaker46

@jarrod268, what's a pro suppose to act like?  I assume that some of what you said was directed my way. There are some clients that still like to use old(experienced) grumpy(on occation) and an elitist pro that knows how to shoot. There are some people that don't mind having  an enthusiastic, non jaded entry level professional( no experience and cheap) that is just learning how to shoot.

I get hired because of my experience, I deliver high quality images consistantly, clients don't have to hold my hand and they leave happy with the final results. This is a simple forum. People take things out of context, they skim over the surface of posts without understanding what has been said, they only comment on a single point and make judgements based on a single point.

I'm not feeling very grumpy today at all, the sun isn't even shining and it's still rather chilly. Life is good being an  old, grumpy, elitist pro.........


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Being a Diva, is like being Pro+. :thumbup:


----------



## Jarrod268

Great! Glad you're happy. 

Actually, it was directed at everyone. No matter what your profession be professional. 

I'm not sure I would enjoy working with 90% of the people here. Not because of experience but because of maturity. I'm speaking from the perspective of a consumer.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Jarrod268

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Being a Diva, is like being Pro+. :thumbup:


 
Try a snickers 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## imagemaker46

Well I have to agree about not wanting to work with the majority of people on here. I think there are some very skilled people on here, and probably more so in the jobs they do full time.


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## kasperjd4

Wow, I didn't read a lot of this but I'm going to chip in. Everything I'm going to say may have already been said, but oh well. 

If you don't like working with people don't! Also if you're complaining about spending 3g on equipment then get out now, because things only get more expensive. Taking a bunch of quotes from other people and threads: Photography is 70% who you know and 30% what you can do. Sometimes you have to Fake it to Make it, but screw up too many gigs and you'll never get hired again. 

If you're trying to make money off of photography you need to look at it from a business standpoint, considering the advancements in technology.

For one, sports are a lot different than Weddings. You may shoot an entire soccer game, or whatever, and only get 1 good shot, and hell, you might be the best soccer photographer in the world. That's why people usually don't pay for photographers to be there, they only pay for prints. You have to capture that moment. Just out of curiosity, who is buying your prints? Parents? The venue? Magazines? That all constitutes how/if you get paid, especially if mom and dad have their own camera shooting from the bleachers.  

Personally, I work for a magazine. When I shoot sports, I get paid for my time, and my shots they use. But that's only because they are going to use my shots regardless if they are good or not. So if you want to get paid for your time, work for a magazine, or someone who is going to use the shots no matter what. BUT that means you still are working for someone. 

I would recommend talking to these venues. Seriously asking them what they would need from you to pay you for your time, or how you could work out a deal. 

@imagemaker46: I agree, with the new age of technology weekend warriors and photo mom's are becoming a huge issue for the livelihood of professional photographers. It really has been difficult. Almost all of the professional photographers with studios in my area have been put out of business because no one wants to pay for photos when they can "use a camera themselves." Now, I didn't read through all the posts so I'm not sure what went on. I really don't understand why people get so angry when they ask for honest opinions and you tell them. It simply baffles me. So sorry. 

 The only other thing I have to say is to everyone, not just you. The weekend warrior and photo mom phenomenon is something to be embraced I think. I really believe it separates us from them. When I go on craigslist and look at other photogs websites, 99% of the time, their work is not good. As I am not on my own in photography I'm not sure how to market against the "$300 best weddin photografy ever" (yes misspelling is intentional from someones craigslist ad) but I'm sure there is a way. The problem just needs to be harnessed instead of fought. 

I don't know, just my thoughts.


----------



## imagemaker46

Kasperjd4. Well you pretty much summed up what has been going on throughout this thread.  I don't shoot too much sports on spec and hope to sell, If I don't have a client that is paying me to be there I have no reason to go. I have an archive of images online that generates income as well.  The ones that complain about not getting hired or not selling anything are generally not very good at two things, selling themselves and trying to sell poor quality images.


----------



## Minga

3k for equipment ?
Zeiss prime  lens $ 1600
Zeiss prime lens  $ 2100
Nikkor zoom VR lens $ 3000
Nikkor......and so on
D3 - have your own guess..
and i just shoot for hobby - my own satisfaction :thumbup:


----------



## bennielou

Thanks for the tally of your equipment Minga.  I think a few of us around here have you beat by $50,000 or more......Sorry, I guess you are just rubbing me the wrong way today.  You are like Debbie Downer.  And who cares what the hell you paid for your equipment?.  I've seen PPA loan photos and a Pulitzer winner come from a cell cam.  It's not what you spend.  It's what you do with it.

But getting back to the OP.  If you don't like it.  Don't do it.  If you don't like working for people, they will know it.  Go shoot something that doesn't involve people.  Tons of people have made money doing stock work, Photojournalism, Catelog, Commercial......alll things that don't involve people (or at least to a lesser extent)


----------



## imagemaker46

Bennielou,  I believe the OP was frustrated at the lack of interest in people wanting to hire him and that they wanted to see the photos before buying them.  While I can understand his frustration, he is also not working as a professional, does not have a business and is under equiped for what he wants to shoot, which is sports.  On top of it all he's believed his family and friends when they said he does great work.  Clearly from looking at his flickr web site he has a long way to go, this is the web site he posted in another thread.  www.brianciancio.com


----------



## bennielou

imagemaker46 said:


> Bennielou, I believe the OP was frustrated at the lack of interest in people wanting to hire him and that they wanted to see the photos before buying them. While I can understand his frustration, he is also not working as a professional, does not have a business and is under equiped for what he wants to shoot, which is sports. On top of it all he's believed his family and friends when they said he does great work. Clearly from looking at his flickr web site he has a long way to go, this is the web site he posted in another thread. www.brianciancio.com


 
Imagemaker, I am starting to see why people get frustrated with you. You aren't reading the posts, you are skimming them.
Yes, he has a ways to go, but he isn't total crap.

He has that thing you can't buy with gear. He has an eye.

Does he have a ways to go? Yes. But I think he is well ahead of most people with a pile of gear that have no idea what to do with it. Is he ready to turn pro today? No. But if he works with others, I think he has a good shot.

JMO.


----------



## imagemaker46

I can only base my opinion on the photos that I looked at, I told him in an earlier post that there were a couple of nice ones, because that's all there were, a couple of them looked liked he fired off frames without looking though the camera.  You use the "eye" in your posts, what exactly does that mean? You have said that about two people on here that have both posted average photos.  

People get frustrated with me because I don't sugar coat my opinions. If I like something I say it, if I can look at a single photo or a group of photos and see what could be changed to make them better I will say it. But if I look at a group in photos that are 99% bad, I could say they are all out of focus, or the exposures are off on all of them, or the composition is off, or the shutter speed wasn't fast enough, or I could just say I know what you were pointing the camera at but there are too many things wrong with it, but you have an eye. I'm not going to make a statement that I don't agree with, simply to not hurt someones feelings.  I grew up having my photos critiqued everyday, and I was told what was wrong with them, it wasn't sugar coated, but it made me a much better photographer than being told "nice try"  Wanting to be a professional doesn't come with the words "nice try" they come with the words "well done"  and when I see it I use them.


----------



## bennielou

Fine. I think I speak my mind to the point of being booted off this forum more than once in a decade. (I'm thinking four times, could be five). 

What I learened is there is a difference in speaking out of fear, and speaking to help another photog.
If you want to hear some non sugar coated crit, you can come to me. And belive me, I will give you an earfull.
But there is crit, and there is meaness/envy/frustration. 

You rarely have anything encouraging to say. It's all negative. I could go though every one of your photos and nit pic them to death.

And yes you learn by hard crit, but you don't DO hard crit. You just tell people that they have ****ty cameras, and no experience, and that they are beginners.

News flash to you lady, I've had people who worked under me and shot for me that are now way better than I am. And that is the best thing I could ever hope for.

IMO, you need an attitude ajustment if you want to keep in this business.


----------



## imagemaker46

bennilou, I welcome your nit piks on my photos.  Do your homework before you start ragging on someone. You have no idea who I am as a photographer. You jumped to a conclusion, and a wrong one at that.


----------



## bennielou

I wouldn't have to guess if I saw a boatload of photos.  Just saying.


----------



## CNCO

imagemaker, my shots are very good. i have been told by people that shoot for companies only you could dream about. the rink sucks and the lighting sucks. its the best you are going to get in that arena. im not saying that i am ready to quit my full time job and work for getty or ap, i know i have a lot to learn. what i do not like is that people(sport teams locally) assume that people are going to shoot their events and be their ***** for free. i wont do it. i have shot races with pros and they were impressed with my eye and how i can max out an old nikon d80. your thoughts do not matter unless you are a client.

yes i have a full time paying job that pays my bills. im not going out and spending 20k on equipment and work for free. im not an idiot im very smart when it comes to finances. 

post all you want on my threads i dont care just throwing some humor around etc... 

i would also love to see your work.


----------



## imagemaker46

I'm guessing that you haven't been going to the threads that I have been posting photos in.  Did you even bother to visit the web site I posted? I took the time to visit your wedding site, and the images I did look at were creative and well thought out.  Everything I say is based on experience. I try not to jump to conclusions without knowing the facts.


----------



## CNCO

bennielou said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bennielou, I believe the OP was frustrated at the lack of interest in people wanting to hire him and that they wanted to see the photos before buying them. While I can understand his frustration, he is also not working as a professional, does not have a business and is under equiped for what he wants to shoot, which is sports. On top of it all he's believed his family and friends when they said he does great work. Clearly from looking at his flickr web site he has a long way to go, this is the web site he posted in another thread. www.brianciancio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagemaker, I am starting to see why people get frustrated with you. You aren't reading the posts, you are skimming them.
> Yes, he has a ways to go, but he isn't total crap.
> 
> He has that thing you can't buy with gear. He has an eye.
> 
> Does he have a ways to go? Yes. But I think he is well ahead of most people with a pile of gear that have no idea what to do with it. Is he ready to turn pro today? No. But if he works with others, I think he has a good shot.
> 
> JMO.
Click to expand...


thanks, i can take decent to good shots but not WOW. for only doing photography for a year with no guidance except a thephotoforum degree im happy with my stuff. my images are not edited either. there are a lot of shots here that are all post production and they look great. i should invest some time dodging and burning like everyone else.


----------



## CNCO

imagemaker46 said:


> bennilou, I welcome your nit piks on my photos.  Do your homework before you start ragging on someone. You have no idea who I am as a photographer. You jumped to a conclusion, and a wrong one at that.


 
and who the hell are you? lets see your work. you sure talk like you know what you are talking about.


----------



## camz

Man you two are on every thread I've visited so far today.

C'mon I think it's time :hug::

You two are professionals...it's time for you to go out there and shoot and make some darn money! :camera:


----------



## imagemaker46

CNCO, my web site is www.scottgrant.photoshelter.com   You can find a lot of my work there, in one of many galleries, I would suggest the featured favourites gallery, some of my well, favourites. I will be adding a motorsports gallery when I get back home.

In regards to your post, you shouldn't be expected to work for free. There are times when I do shoot sports on spec and post a link to my web site so that if anyone on the teams that I shot are interested in buying they can just download the hi res files, sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. I leave the photos online for a week, and then they come down, if the teams haven't bought anything in the first week, it's unlikely they will. If I'm not working which isn't all the time and I have nothing better to do, I'll take a chance to make a few bucks shooting this way.


----------



## kasperjd4

@ CNCO:

Just out of curiosity, who are these big companies that we would never dream of working for? I'm really just curious who you've worked for. 


I had written out a really good critique of your hockey and racing photos, but I accidentaly hit the back key so oh well. The blunt of it is this: the hockey shots aren't personal enough, humans naturally emote when seeing other peoples faces. Body language and faces have a lot to do with that. Try to get more shots of this. You do have a good eye for the high-action shots. For the racing shots, good, but watch your exposure and keep working on panning.

Also, they can expect people to shoot their events and do it for free! Because people are going to! With the digital era, and DSLR's becoming more of a consumer product, mom and dad can easily buy a dslr and shoot the event and give the entire team the photos. The difference is you need to make your photos stand out.They need to look at yours and be like D**N that's a CNCO photo and it's the best photo anyone here could have taken. 

One lady I work with was a huge sports photographer in California back in the day, she gave me some advice on sports photography so I'll pass it on. With the digital era, moms and dads can now take pictures anywhere, everywhere, and they can be pretty good since DSLR's are so cheap. She started working individually for certain families of the players at games, instead of shooting the whole thing and trying to sell to everyone. This way you build relationships with the families that will last years and years, and get you work with them in other areas besides sports. And they will pay you for your time, and then pay for selective prints.


----------



## kasperjd4

imagemaker46 said:


> CNCO, my web site is www.scottgrant.photoshelter.com   You can find a lot of my work there, in one of many galleries, I would suggest the featured favourites gallery, some of my well, favourites. I will be adding a motorsports gallery when I get back home.
> 
> In regards to your post, you shouldn't be expected to work for free. There are times when I do shoot sports on spec and post a link to my web site so that if anyone on the teams that I shot are interested in buying they can just download the hi res files, sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. I leave the photos online for a week, and then they come down, if the teams haven't bought anything in the first week, it's unlikely they will. If I'm not working which isn't all the time and I have nothing better to do, I'll take a chance to make a few bucks shooting this way.


 
See that's what I'm talking about. Those are personal sports photos. You can see the faces and they make you emote. I can see the sweat running down the football players face, and see his body language as he's exerting everything he has.


----------



## MSnowy

CNCO said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> 
> bennilou, I welcome your nit piks on my photos. Do your homework before you start ragging on someone. You have no idea who I am as a photographer. You jumped to a conclusion, and a wrong one at that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and who the hell are you? lets see your work. you sure talk like you know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

 
Well, I took a look Scotts (imagemaker46)  website and I'd have to say he does some amazing work. I think that those of us that are interested in shooting sports will learn alot from his advice  .


----------



## CNCO

One guy that works for SI and Nike and NCAA and the other works for Abercrombie n Guess. I wouldn't mind getting consistent work from these companies. Maybe they were being nice who knows. I have also been critiqued very hard. Your photos are your own interpretation of the subject. Look at art, Jackson pollack is crap but his work became very famous - why? Let's agree to disagree and let's help others instead of trashing each other. If you like my stuff great if not can't make everyone happy.

I disagree with the fact that anyone can be a photographer. You need an eye and know how to use a camera. If I gave a D3x to a random hockey mom she would have better equipment but would she know how to set a custom white balance in a rink? Her photos would be yellowish even on auto. Would she know what lens to use? Well this kit lens is 55-200, yeah at 200 your aperture is 5.6. I have 2.8 with better glass. You have to know how to use your stuff and know the sport to get the best angle. I know I could use a better body but I can't justify 4k on a body unless I'm getting compensated. I could use longer glass but again I have to be compensated. My equipment is just fine at taking pics of my daughter and other things. Maybe I'll get a break maybe not.


----------



## CNCO

Image-maker good shots but nothing says wow. Long glass will always help. Getting a press pass will also give you the opportunity to take those photos.what are you doing these days?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

CNCO said:


> Image-maker good shots but nothing says wow. Long glass will always help. Getting a press pass will also give you the opportunity to take those photos.what are you doing these days?


 
:shock:













 get it while it's still hot!


----------



## imagemaker46

CNCO, nothing says wow,  your opinion, I wouldn't have expected anything more from you.  January I shot the Canadian Figure Skating Championships, February was the Canada Winter Games,(23 sports in 10 days) I just finished shooting the World swimming trials.  In between was the editing and getting the 18,000 images burned to dvd's and handed off to the clients. I fly back home in two days, have a couple of corporate shoots, May I have an International diving meet and some canoe/kayak to shoot.

Yes long glass helps, but it isn't the long glass that defines the photographer, it's the images that are produced.   I'm  hired by the sports to shoot for them because they know I can deliver every time, without question. It also takes timing, understanding  every sport, shooting in every light condition and not making any mistakes, missing any shots and spending 15-17 hours a day shooting for in some cases, 15-20 days in a row.  Looking at my favourites is a small cross sample of what I shoot.  Each event I shoot produces between 2000-10,000 images that are all as consistant as the other. That's the difference between being a weekend warrior and working a professional.  My work has always talked for me, if I couldn't back up what I say with what I shoot, I wouldn't say anything.

CNCO rent some long glass, even a 300 2.8 and try shooting, the longer the glass the tougher it is to shoot, add a 400 2.8. or 500-4.5 and a 1.4 and try to shoot, the tigher you are to the action the more difficult it is, it's not the other way around. I could shoot everything with a 70-2002.8 and shoot loose and crop everything, like most amateurs do, nothing wrong with that. But don't use the long glass as being easier, far from it. The longer the glass the tighter the image and the less forgiving it is when you miss.

Could you afford to miss when someone is paying for you to shoot?  I can't.


----------



## imagemaker46

Hey Bitter you got extra butter on that popcorn, better pop up some more.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler

Funny how someones smug mug site magically disappeared.


----------



## kasperjd4

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Funny how someones smug mug site magically disappeared.


 
Thats what I was thinking when I tried finding his website.


CNCO, So people that worked for SI and Guess said they liked your photos? Sweet! I work as an assistant for a "guy" whose shot sports and covers for SI for 22 years. One of the head designers at Chopard said she liked my photos. Mr. Armani said he liked my photos when I met him at a private event in NY.  I've also been flown to the Bahamas to shoot for another guy who owns 27 ferrari, lamborghini, and maserati dealerships. My ex's mom who was runner-up for miss america, and one of the best models for Hawaiian tropic also said my photos were amazing, infact she ordered prints from me. Am I an amazing photographer. 

Now, am I a good photographer? NO!!! Some of my photos are good, but all them have stuff that I don't like.I have so much to learn I can't even believe it... Everyone will say they like your photos. It's when they start hiring you to work for them, you might actually have good photos. But do I usually boast about this stuff? Never! Because I want my work to speak for itself, not who I know. 

Like Bob Gilka said: "Don't worry about proving yourself; just IMprove yourself."


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## imagemaker46

This is his flickr site  www.brianciancio.com  If this was the one that had disappered, or did he have another one with better images?  I really don't care if CNCO thinks my photos are average, and talking about about the SI photographers doesn't impress me.  I sat with Manny Millan(one of SI's all time greats) at the 1992 Winter Olympics shooting figure skating and gave him tips, real gentleman. I sat with Heinz Kluetmeier(SI photo editor) at the 2005 World Aquatics Championships. I could continue on but what's the point, there really  isn't one, only don't try throwing water balloons when I have rocks to throw back.


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## RobDingwall

Imagemaker46: I appreciate your openness and direct speech - no point hiding your viewpoint. I'm one of the "amateurs wanting to turn pro-ish" and have waited millennia for the opportunity, i.e. semi-retirement. Now I have the gear and the time and some ability, I hope that by listening to the opinions here (yours included) that I will learn a few tricks and shortcuts.

Heated (?) debate always helps people arrive at some conclusion which is either going to be helpful or not. Up to them to read the arguments/opinions and make their own decisions, but without the discussion they have nothing to go on.

I'm at the point of deciding whether to pay some money to PhotoShelter and showcase my work there in the hopes of doing some business. 

So, changing the subject slightly, has anyone got good/bad/indifferent experiences of PhotoShelter they would like to share with me?


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## imagemaker46

I can only speak from my personal experiences after using photoshelter for just over a year, it's been perfect for my needs. The other photo agency that I have been working with also uses photoshelter, and it has been a positive for them as well. If you have any questions they will get back to you with answers within 24 hours.  When the have scheduled upgrades they are usually short in duration and let you know days in advance.  It's been all positive for me.


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## Bitter Jeweler

Rocks hurt.


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## Balmiesgirl

Bitter Jeweler said:
			
		

> Yes, everyone does have to start somewhere.
> But is buying a camera and starting a "business" WHILE you are still learning, the right way to do it?



I totally agree with you two!

It's bad for everybody when someone claims to be a pro and doesn't have the skills, knowledge or equipment to do the job! It devalues the pros...
I am not worried about amateurs taking my work. I have a lot more problems trying to fix what so called "pros" have done to my local market.


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## Balmiesgirl

bennielou said:
			
		

> But getting back to the OP.  If you don't like it.  Don't do it.  If you don't like working for people, they will know it.  Go shoot something that doesn't involve people.  Tons of people have made money doing stock work, Photojournalism, Catelog, Commercial......alll things that don't involve people (or at least to a lesser extent)



You deal with a lot of people in commercial and catalog work. Art directors, stylists, account execs., etc..... For even s small commercial shoot I can end up dealing with 6+ people not including my staff or any models. 
If you don't want to deal with people, do stock  or landscapes.


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## snapcult

Just a few things to mix the pot...

If you don't like dealing with people get out of photography and maybe start fishing.
If you think spending money on gear is a hassle, get out of photography. It's always been expensive even before digital...
If you are feeling pressure from a hobby weekend guy, maybe it's time to up your image game.

Sure it sucks that some random guy can walk into a camera store and blow 5K on gear and try to sell himself as a professional... Will he get a few jobs, sure people are always looking for a good deal. Will he get more business from that client, doubt it. these people have always been around, this isn't new. First was the canon AE-1 with the program mode, then digital, and I'm sure there will be more technical advances that will make it easier for the beginner. Hey if it were up to me we'd still shoot everything on 8x10 cameras with E-6.

Being "professional" means being able to walk into any situation and make a good image, and also being able to tell the client no when you know you can't make a good image. Better to turn down a job then to blow it.


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## Tony S

Well this is a revived older pos and I didn't read all the posts on this, but here's my viewpoint on this.  Showing up and shooting for free on speculation is no way to make money. That is one of the worst business models around for photographers. You should be setting a minimum fee for taking the pictures plus print sales.

If they want you to show up and shoot, then it should cost them. Otherwise you are just another fan with a camera and there is no value to your photography.


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