# Why professionals dislke some amateurs



## imagemaker46 (Aug 14, 2013)

This is very simple. After arriving at the triathlon venue early and spending time looking for the best spot to shoot the start of the race, I took up position with a Canadian Press wire service photographer.  What happened next was a surprise but something that happens way too often these days. As the race was about to start, 10 seconds away this amateur walks around a security fence out into the water, we yelled at him to stop, he turned and with a stupid grin on his face turned back around and stayed.  The picture shows the result.  After the start I went over to him and had a few words for him, I spoke to him in clear English and really didn't care what he said back to me in a combination of French and broken English, he finally says, "I weren't in your picture"   I showed him the 6 frames, and asked him if that was his ass in the frames,  he made it all better by saying sorry, in fact he didn't make anything better.

For everyone that is out shooting pictures, and it doesn't matter if they are amateurs or pros, before you move, walk or run, look around, all around and make sure there is no one behind you taking pictures.  With everyone using I-phone and I-pads and digital cameras people get caught up and don't think.  We didn't really part as friends, I'm sure he has a few nice frames, but in the process ruined someone else's.


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## Robin_Usagani (Aug 14, 2013)

I think you hate anyone that does that... amateurs or pros.  And yes.. there are some pros that do that.


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## paigew (Aug 14, 2013)

that sucks...but I think you can clone him out


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## Robin_Usagani (Aug 14, 2013)

paigew said:


> that sucks...but I think you can clone him out



I think cloning isn't really an option in photojournalism.


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## 480sparky (Aug 14, 2013)

Did you demand he sign a model release?

If not, ask him for his address so you can send him a print.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 14, 2013)

most people don't choose to think of anyone but therselves these days.


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## amolitor (Aug 14, 2013)

If he was there, he's part of the story, isn't he?

If you're looking to sell clean pictures of the start to the racers, then clone him out. If you're looking to do journalism, leave him in and see if there's anything interesting to be made of it. Does his presence speak to the mainstreaming of triathlons?


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## tirediron (Aug 14, 2013)

This is NOT limited to amateurs; when I was shooting the Consecration of the Queen's Colours for the Canadian Scottish  a couple of years ago we all went down and got our little briefing from the event coordinator, s in, "You can stand from here to here, don't go past this line, etc.."  The idiot that ignored all that and ran onto the field for a close-up of the drum major was a Black Press PJ!


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 14, 2013)

It is true that there are a lot of "pros" that fail to think as well, the lack of professional courtesy is heading out the window these days, I was taught that if you pick a spot to stay in that spot until the action is over, always look behind to see who is there before moving. The only thing that this guy should be happy about is that I didn't throw a rock at him...there wasn't enough time.


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## Gavjenks (Aug 14, 2013)

1) Take a picture of his face behind the security line
2) File a police report for trespassing
3) Use the photo to then publish a story entitled "Man faces possible criminal charges for photobombing"
4) Instant hit on any of an infinite number of trashy internet tabloid news hubs


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## Designer (Aug 14, 2013)

tirediron said:


> This is NOT limited to amateurs; when I was shooting the Consecration of the Queen's Colours for the Canadian Scottish  a couple of years ago we all went down and got our little briefing from the event coordinator, s in, "You can stand from here to here, don't go past this line, etc.."  The idiot that ignored all that and ran onto the field for a close-up of the drum major was a Black Press PJ!



::: Black Press :::

"What elevates *Black Press* newspapers from the crowd is our diversity."


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## Dao (Aug 14, 2013)

Robin_Usagani said:


> I think you hate anyone that does that... amateurs or pros.  And yes.. there are some pros that do that.



A friend of mine is a professional videographer for wedding.   And you are correct.   He show me some clips that the some (not all) Wedding Photographers did that.

Of course, he also showed me some "friends with iPad" video.   Everything were set and ready do roll. And at the last second, someone walk up in front of the camera and shoot with a 10 inch iPad which block everything.  Of course, he shoot with multiple cams, but still....


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## rexbobcat (Aug 14, 2013)

My dislike for many true amateurs is simple - I dislike them because of the inflated and delusional worth that they put on their photos/skills.

I'm mostly talking about those who buy really expensive stuff and then fumble around trying to figure out why their photos are overexposed, all while bragging about their expensive camera and how they've totally been taking pictures for 15 years

Most amateurs are nice to be around and are really concerned with learning...but then there are those....


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## Derrel (Aug 14, 2013)

The guy photobombing you ought to have been arrested for the fashion crimes he was committing! Man...those pants! Or are they shorts, worn over white Spanx? lol


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> It is true that there are a lot of "pros" that fail to think as well, the lack of professional courtesy is heading out the window these days, I was taught that if you pick a spot to stay in that spot until the action is over, always look behind to see who is there before moving. The only thing that this guy should be happy about is that I didn't throw a rock at him...there wasn't enough time.



People just don't give a **** about anyone besides themselves. I was a parade with my young son and we had picked out a spot where he could see and sure enough a "larger" woman came down and parked her sizable posterior in a chair right in front of his stroller. I told her excuse me can you move so my son could see. She got all pissy and start unloading profanities describing how she can sit where every she wants and we could move it if bothered us. Needless to say I covered my son's ears and called her a piece of human garbage and left. She started to waddle after me but realized that I was moving much quicker than her obese form could handle.


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## Ysarex (Aug 14, 2013)

12 guage loaded with rock salt -- I just keep seeing a target.

Joe


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## 480sparky (Aug 14, 2013)

I remember the time I was shooting a high school graduation, and was tasked to get a shot of every student receiving their diploma.  I set up a platform so I could be 'above' the rest of the crowd (way back before MWAC was common), but of course every parent wanted to take their own shot.  I got all but one student.... his dad decided to hold his camera up in the air: right in my line of sight.

Oh well, missing one isn't that big of a deal.

Three weeks later, I get a call from him.  His shot didn't come out, and wondered if he could buy the one I took.  Sure, I said.  I charged him $25 and sent him a nice 5x7 glossy of the back of his hand holding his camera.


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## Stevepwns (Aug 14, 2013)

OK, so Im going to play devils advocate on this one.   NOT to be a dick but maybe to show the other side of the coin...

I am as amateur as it gets, but why do pro's have the right of way.  What makes you superior to anyone on the street.  Just because you get paid to do it, doesn't mean you have a right to control the 50 feet of space in front of you, where eve you just so happen to be.   Now I am not defending anyone that goes into areas closed off to public use, because that's just ignorant in and of itself.  But i was at a child's soft ball game,  my nieces to be exact. and the photographer that was hired to shoot for the league would demand everyone only get up when he said so.  He spent 4 games dictating where people could go and sit, he believed he could have control of the entire field.  Now controlled environment....  weddings, religious events like baptisms and what have you, I get it. 

My girlfriend and I were at a water fall, I spent 20 minutes getting everything where I wanted and almost like clock work, as soon as I hit my shutter.  A woman with a pro camera on a mono pod walked her clients and her 3 kids right in from of me.  Not only did she start taking pictures, but she had the kids change clothes right there like 4 times.   About 5 minutes after walking right in front of me and everyone else there trying to take pictures,  she turns to me and says "oh were you taking pictures?  I didnt see you." 45 minutes I waited for her to finish.  By the time she was done, the light was horrible and my shot was worthless.  I drove 3 hours to go to that waterfall. Got up at 4 in the morning on a Saturday so I could catch the right light.  By the time I got home I spent 8 hours of my day and never got to do what what I set up, planned on, and was literally doing when ruined by an arrogant pro that thought she had the right to screw up everyone else's pictures, because apparently ours don't madder because we are just amateurs.


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> OK, so Im going to play devils advocate on this one.



The difference is the professionals are being paid to cover an event. If you block their way and they miss a shot you are hurting their business. When I am on a photo or video shoot at an event I will be a lion and get the shot regardless because it is MY job to get the shot or the interview. If I don't get what I need I get yelled at and it affects my job. If I am at some place for fun and happen to be taking photos I will be respectful of others and make sure I am not in the way.


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## Stevepwns (Aug 14, 2013)

runnah said:


> I will be respectful of others and make sure I am not in the way.





Do you just pull over for Taxi's when they are on the road you are on, or do continue as if they aren't there?  Why do photographers deserve this respect when no one else gets it.   Traffic in the morning makes me late to work sometimes, when I am late my boss gets pissed.  If I am late to many times I might lose my job.  Should everybody on the road that's not on their way to work get out of the way of the people trying to get to work.  When I am late I don't get paid for that 15 to 20 minutes or more, which effects my paycheck.  If I am late to many times I might not be able to feed my kids.  If I wasn't on my way to work I would be respectful and get out of the way of everyone that is on their way to work so they aren't late.  See the connection here?  Your job doesn't make your time or plans any more important than anyone else there.  I use to deliver auto parts when I was 18, would it have been arrogant of me to expect everyone else on the road to get out of my way "because its my job" to get these parts to that gas station?   This goes both ways.  The excuse "its my job" doesnt matter when you are out in public.  If anything its an event that will inevitably happen in your career that you just have to learn to live with, because it will never stop and you cant do anything about it.


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2013)

So the general conciousness is to just generally be nice and respect each other and if we're shooting photography take mind of our surroundings and not get tunnel view into just seeing our shot  at the event. 




I don't really see where pro, amateur or any other fancy "titling" has any baring on this at all


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## jwbryson1 (Aug 14, 2013)

You should have dunked his camera into the water...


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## Devinhullphoto (Aug 14, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I remember the time I was shooting a high school graduation, and was tasked to get a shot of every student receiving their diploma.  I set up a platform so I could be 'above' the rest of the crowd (way back before MWAC was common), but of course every parent wanted to take their own shot.  I got all but one student.... his dad decided to hold his camera up in the air: right in my line of sight.
> 
> Oh well, missing one isn't that big of a deal.
> 
> Three weeks later, I get a call from him.  His shot didn't come out, and wondered if he could buy the one I took.  Sure, I said.  I charged him $25 and sent him a nice 5x7 glossy of the back of his hand holding his camera.



Ha that's great.


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## DarkShadow (Aug 14, 2013)

Here is where a strong rubber band and paper clip would have came in handy and with such a large ass for a target, I am sure you would have hit your mark.


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## snerd (Aug 14, 2013)

So I was trying to get a good shot of the beginning of a race, and these azzwipes behind me kept making loud, obnoxious noises. Every time I turned around they were making stupid faces at me and flailing their arms about wildly! Man! They just let "anybody" into these races anymore!!


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## Gavjenks (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > I will be respectful of others and make sure I am not in the way.
> ...



That's fine logic, except that the guy in the OP hopped a security fence to get into that shot.  It's not like he was in the crowd with everybody else and the pro photographer is pissed off just because he can't get to the front of the crowd.  The dude is actually trespassing into the race without having registered or whatever.

It's the equivalent of somebody driving up onto the sidewalk to get around you and cut you off.


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> The excuse "its my job" doesnt matter when you are out in public.



So by your logic anyone who has a career that involves being out public deserves no respect or consideration? I find that to be very rude as you would not like people coming into your place of work and making your job more difficult.


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## 480sparky (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> OK, so Im going to play devils advocate on this one.   NOT to be a dick but maybe to show the other side of the coin...
> 
> I am as amateur as it gets, but why do pro's have the right of way.  What makes you superior to anyone on the street.  Just because you get paid to do it, doesn't mean you have a right to control the 50 feet of space in front of you, where eve you just so happen to be.   Now I am not defending anyone that goes into areas closed off to public use, because that's just ignorant in and of itself.  But i was at a child's soft ball game,  my nieces to be exact. and the photographer that was hired to shoot for the league would demand everyone only get up when he said so.  He spent 4 games dictating where people could go and sit, he believed he could have control of the entire field.  Now controlled environment....  weddings, religious events like baptisms and what have you, I get it.
> 
> My girlfriend and I were at a water fall, I spent 20 minutes getting everything where I wanted and almost like clock work, as soon as I hit my shutter.  A woman with a pro camera on a mono pod walked her clients and her 3 kids right in from of me.  Not only did she start taking pictures, but she had the kids change clothes right there like 4 times.   About 5 minutes after walking right in front of me and everyone else there trying to take pictures,  she turns to me and says "oh were you taking pictures?  I didnt see you." 45 minutes I waited for her to finish.  By the time she was done, the light was horrible and my shot was worthless.  I drove 3 hours to go to that waterfall. Got up at 4 in the morning on a Saturday so I could catch the right light.  By the time I got home I spent 8 hours of my day and never got to do what what I set up, planned on, and was literally doing when ruined by an arrogant pro that thought she had the right to screw up everyone else's pictures, because apparently ours don't madder because we are just amateurs.



I gotta ask: So in 45 minutes (and 4 wardrobe changes), you never bothered to say anything?


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## DarkShadow (Aug 14, 2013)

When I recently went to a museum a couple of guys where setting a pro video came in a art exhibit.The first thing I did was ask if I should go around the back of them and they replied that are not live yet and thanked me for being considerate and thats all it was,just being considerate, no more no less.


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## 480sparky (Aug 14, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> When I recently went to a museum a couple of guys where setting a pro video came in a art exhibit.The first thing I did was ask if I should go around the back of them and they replied that are not live let and thanked me for being considerate and thats all it was,just being considerate, no more no less.



I have that happen a lot.  I'm setting up a tripod and all of a sudden everyone starts veering behind me.  I usually have to interact with half a dozen people telling them they're OK as I'm not ready to shoot yet.


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## snerd (Aug 14, 2013)

It could also be the area of the country. Down here in redneckville, even the cars will stop if they see you shooting landscapes across the road out at the wildlife refuge. Even in town at the little park where I walk, if I am shooting the prairie dogs, most everyone will hesitate to cross in front if my eye is in the cup.


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## DarkShadow (Aug 14, 2013)

I wish people where like that here in CT,they will run you down with there cars.I know it's not about the state per say but we seem to have all the loony tunes here.A couple from New York City moved next door to me and the first comments about the drivers here,That they take the cake and people think New York driving is bad.


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> I wish people where like that here in CT,they will run you down with there cars.I know it's not about the state per say but we seem to have all the loony tunes here.A couple from new york city moved next door to me and the first comments about the drivers here,That they take the cake and people think new york driving is bad.



I was down there Monday and I was constantly being cut off and tailgated by angry botox moms in expensive SUV's.


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## DarkShadow (Aug 14, 2013)

runnah said:


> DarkShadow said:
> 
> 
> > I wish people where like that here in CT,they will run you down with there cars.I know it's not about the state per say but we seem to have all the loony tunes here.A couple from new york city moved next door to me and the first comments about the drivers here,That they take the cake and people think new york driving is bad.
> ...


Yea I have no idea what it is here,something in the water making them mad I dunno.I seen a guy on a motorcycle just recent trying to outrun the police at night with no lights on the bike at all.You can have baby in the car and even posting a big sign in the rear window and still up on the bumper doesn't matter.


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## Stevepwns (Aug 14, 2013)

Gavjenks said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



I actually already agreed with you several posts back before you mentioned this.


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## vintagesnaps (Aug 14, 2013)

That guy with the camera had no business being where he was; at a sports event there are areas cordoned off that are not accessible to the general public for a reason. Not only was he interfering with photographers working the event but was interfering with the event itself (apparently not to the point of completely disrupting it) but teams and arenas etc. are trying to protect their athletes as well as spectators. 

I haven't done photography nearly at the level of sports that Scott does but even in lower level sports it's necessary to be aware of what's going on around you; even with credentials and permission to be in a nonpublic area. Too much happens that they don't need spectators in certain areas. More than once I've been in between benches at a hockey game when they were bringing an injured player off the ice; one time the team doctor literally lept over the concrete wall into the tunnel a few feet from where I was standing. 

This is not a photojournalistic moment; the photo most likely wouldn't be used because besides not exactly making for the greatest photo of the event usually there's an effort to not give attention or publicity to someone interfering with the event. I'd hope at the very least he got escorted out by security after displaying such irresponsible behavior.


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## Stevepwns (Aug 14, 2013)

runnah said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > The excuse "its my job" doesnt matter when you are out in public.
> ...




Well actually, I work for the government, that's what government employees do. Make my job hard. Yes I believe they do it on purpose too.

But in all seriousness, that is not what I am saying.  I  may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis.  The problem being photographers don't have a place of work, in this context, that doesn't include the public and amateurs.   Something to be accepted, its not going to change.  I find the idea that because a photographer is out in a public place and has to deal with the general public to get paid, doesn't mean they are more important or above anyone else. Just because they are getting paid to do what they are doing.  Its an elitist attitude and would also be considered rude.  So as I stated before, it goes both ways.  The excuse "because its my job" is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion.  Overread stated it pretty simply.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Stevepwns said:
> ...



You have an opinion and I respect that, but until you have put in the years working as a professional photographer, that shows up hours before events start to look for the best photo positions, and then have it ruined by some idiot who shows no respect at all, then I will take into consideration your views on how it all works in my world.  You told your story about taking pictures and having your spot hijacked and you didn't say anything, I would have.  But then inspite of how you view the "rights" of professionals, I am paid to produce images, it is not a hobby, and I work really hard at it.  If I had of just showed up and there was someone in the best spot, I would have moved around until I found another one, I would not have stepped in front waving a credential saying "pro coming through"  Unfortunately not everyone works the way I do, or understands what professionals have to put up with on a regular basis.


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> You have an opinion and I respect that, but until you have put in the years working as a professional photographer, that shows up hours before events start to look for the best photo positions, and then have it ruined by some idiot who shows no respect at all, then I will take into consideration your views on how it all works in my world.  You told your story about taking pictures and having your spot hijacked and you didn't say anything, I would have.  But then inspite of how you view the "rights" of professionals, I am paid to produce images, it is not a hobby, and I work really hard at it.  If I had of just showed up and there was someone in the best spot, I would have moved around until I found another one, I would not have stepped in front waving a credential saying "pro coming through"  Unfortunately not everyone works the way I do, or understands what professionals have to put up with on a regular basis.



You summed it up perfectly.


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## rexbobcat (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Stevepwns said:
> ...



 If my livelihood was dependent on taking photos, and I was hired to produce quality photos... I would think my position takes authority over those with iPhones.

It's not "elitism."

It's "I have to create a quality product to support my family, so don't impede on my ability to do that."

Employers don't care about excuses. If you miss a shot because you didn't want to be a little forward to someone who is making your job more difficult, then that's on you and, you should probably look for another profession.


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## tirediron (Aug 14, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> But in all seriousness, that is not what I am saying. I may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis. The problem being photographers don't have a place of work, in this context, that doesn't include the public and amateurs. Something to be accepted, its not going to change. I find the idea that because a photographer is out in a public place and has to deal with the general public to get paid, doesn't mean they are more important or above anyone else. Just because they are getting paid to do what they are doing. Its an elitist attitude and would also be considered rude. So as I stated before, it goes both ways. The excuse "because its my job" is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion. Overread stated it pretty simply.


That might be valid, IF the guy hadn't hopped the security fence!


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## weepete (Aug 14, 2013)

Some people show no consideration, some people are ignorant and some people are polite and do their best. Welcome to the world.

Tbh I can see why you are frustrated, its a great shot ruined. But in every job there is allways someone who will block you, part of your job is getting round them anyway. Get over it.

If anything else, nowadays with the number of people taking photos, in general people are more considerate and likley to stop or try and get round the back of you.  

I go shore fishing a lot, abroad swimmers give you no considderati but the absolute worst are dog owners who let their pets run free and have no control over them. They let them into your swim, eat your bait and knock over your gear "its ok, he won't bite" they say but I've got 3 baited hooks out there on a line their dog cant see, on some beaches its more like mutt fishing. Not to mention 2 baited traces with 3 hooks each on my tripod, and god knows what will happen if the let their friendly pet sniff about. Working dogs on the other hand are a joy, you can tell them as they stop on command, their owners know the score and make sure they don't interfere with your activity. The best is the gun dogs, very well trained.


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## snerd (Aug 14, 2013)

It's anarchy, I tell ya! Got preps?


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## runnah (Aug 14, 2013)

If you could read most people's minds it would go something like this: "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me!".


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## tirediron (Aug 14, 2013)

runnah said:


> If you could read most people's minds it would go something like this: "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me!".


You mean, "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me... SQUIRREL!" don't you?


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## Overread (Aug 14, 2013)

tirediron said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > If you could read most people's minds it would go something like this: "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me!".
> ...



Surely its "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me... BACON!......OH PH" CLICK "OTO"


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## DarkShadow (Aug 14, 2013)

:lmao:


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## Designer (Aug 14, 2013)

Amateurs being amateurs have no clue about what the pros are doing or how their actions may affect the pro's efforts.  Considerate people will at least listen to reason, but then there are those who will not.  

And don't give me that crap about "it takes all kinds".  The world has too many asshats.


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## manaheim (Aug 14, 2013)

We live in a society where you stop your car and let people walk across the parking lot ... and the people STROLL ... DIAGONALLY ... in front of you ... no hurry, there pardner, take your time.

It's not a Pro or Amateur issue.  It's just a people and consideration issue.


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## Stevepwns (Aug 14, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> I would not have stepped in front waving a credential saying "pro coming through", Unfortunately not everyone works the way I do, or understands what professionals have to put up with on a regular basis




Whether you guys realize this or not, more photographer's have this attitude than your comments show.  Photographers arent the only people that deal with ignorance and ignorant people. My whole point here is, you guys arent special.  We all deal with ignorant people that have no clue what we go through on a daily basis, at work at home, in life. Again, we all get paid to do something, thats no excuse to expect people to bow down and give you the right away when ever you get your panties in a bunch.   I understand you guys work hard, I work hard too.  I know your job isnt easy, you spent thousands of dollars on equipment and software to feed your family and pay your bills.  When I was a mechanic I had a full tool box worth 30 thousand dollars.  Spent hundreds of hours in school and thousands of hours at work learning to fix automobiles, all while getting called a crook and a ripoff, everyone has an uncle that can fix cars for free.  I get that it sucks when someone jumps the fence a screws up every ones pictures.  Im not defending that ignorance, I already stated that.  I respect what you do,  I do it for fun and see how hard it can be and what you have to go through to get the perfect shot. But in the end, it still goes both ways. You guys arent the only ones.


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## TCampbell (Aug 14, 2013)

manaheim said:


> We live in a society where you stop your car and let people walk across the parking lot ... and the people STROLL ... DIAGONALLY ... in front of you ... no hurry, there pardner, take your time.
> 
> It's not a Pro or Amateur issue.  It's just a people and consideration issue.



See... this is where evolution has failed.  In a no-holds-barred race for survival, you should be allowed to run over those people who are not intelligent nor considerate enough to actually look around before walking out in an area designed for vehicular traffic.   HONESTLY... I had a Beagle/German-Shepherd mix "mutt" dog that we rescued from the humane society that was smart enough to look before walking into the road (I'm not kidding).  If a person is not smart enough to be aware of their surroundings, do we REALLY want their genes going back into the gene pool that sponsors the next generation of humans?

If Darwinism is to succeed, it is critically important that we NOT attempt to save the stupid people.  The survival of the human species may well depend on it.  :mrgreen:

Or, as a recent meme said "I'm not saying we just kill all the stupid people... I'm merely suggesting that we remove the warning stickers and leg nature sort things out."

(Apologies:  That *may* be my third martini which is responsible for writing this post.)


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## texkam (Aug 14, 2013)

University of Louisville Basketball Media Day, my sister, a pro, sets up a wide-angle shot of the team in a circle looking down at her shooting up at them while lying on her back and she gets some a-hole "fellow sports shooter" sticking his camera in from between player's legs ruining her shot. Really? Media Day? I guess anyone can get credentialed these days.


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## play18now (Aug 15, 2013)

I think this is more of a commentary on how little people care for anyone besides themselves these days.  I've seen both pros and amateurs alike doing this at events.  I think it's pretty sad.



TCampbell said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > We live in a society where you stop your car and let people walk across the parking lot ... and the people STROLL ... DIAGONALLY ... in front of you ... no hurry, there pardner, take your time.
> ...



I just have to add on here because I just read this, and I think it's amazing.  Aso: I'm stone-cold sober.


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## bratkinson (Aug 15, 2013)

It's all about R_E_S_P_E_C_T. That's a part of society that has almost completely been put aside in the past 30-40 years or so. How many men out there still hold a door for a lady? How many have the M_A_N_N_E_R_S to even say 'Thank You' to someone that did something for you, even simply stepping out of your camera shot? 

While it would make sense to blame the amateurs, or even rude, thoughtless 'pros', it's everyone, not just a few. It's all about respecting the other person. As mentioned above, todays' world is all ME, ME, ME....It's all about ME! Remember that when some jerk in front of you when the stoplight turns green is yaking away on their cellphone, or busy texting away. And you?  "They" are all concerned about themselves, not the other guy.

For what it's worth, I wrote the above to myself as much as all the readers here. Yeah, there's times I wish I had a .44 magnum on me....like the time 30+ years ago when a large group of all-amateur photographers had dutifully liined up their tripods, clear of each other, a safe distance from a busy railroad track that was going to have a rare steam engine powered train come by. Of course, less than a minute before the train came around the bend, a dozen or more idiots come racing up with their cameras and stood right in front of the 'photo row' that was so clearly established. Then there's the 'chasers' in their cars pacing the steam train along the highway and heaven forbid if someone tries to 'join in' for a moment or two to 'get a shot'. Yeah, common courtesy is gone these days...<sigh>


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## SCraig (Aug 15, 2013)

runnah said:


> The difference is the professionals are being paid to cover an event. If you block their way and they miss a shot you are hurting their business. When I am on a photo or video shoot at an event I will be a lion and get the shot regardless because it is MY job to get the shot or the interview. If I don't get what I need I get yelled at and it affects my job. If I am at some place for fun and happen to be taking photos I will be respectful of others and make sure I am not in the way.


And I care whether a professional is being paid to cover an event why?  If one is being paid by the event organizer to cover the event (i.e. wedding) that's one thing.  If they are being paid by someone else to cover the event (i.e. PJ) that's completely different.

I agree with the principle that I will not intentionally get in someone's way.  I look around before I move into a spot to make sure I'm not going to interfere with another shooter.  I won't shoot from in front of an area set aside for press photographers nor will I violate barricades simply to get a shot.  I expect the same in return, whether they are getting paid or not.

I have a real hate-hate relationship with a particular videographer for one of the local TV news crews because he honestly thinks that because he's part of a television news crew it gives him rights over and above others.  I don't share his philosophy.  I was shooting photos at the Renaissance Festival this past spring and this prick steps directly in front of me, not 2' from the end of my lens and starts filming.  I felt absolutely no remorse when I returned the favor and allowed him to film the back of my head despite his profanities.

Fair is fair.  You guys need to understand that just because we are amateurs does NOT mean you have the right of way.  Unless you are shooting for the event organizers you are just another patron as far as I'm concerned.  The fact that you are getting paid to cover the event means nothing whatsoever to me.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll not get in your way, and I'll look before I position myself, but I expect the same consideration in return.  If you plunk yourself down right in front of me and block my shots I can pretty much guarantee that yours aren't going to be very good either.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 15, 2013)

Some understand the point I was trying to get across and some don't, that is fine. I never said pros run the photo world, I never said the pros deserve the right of way. I pointed out that another camera owner walked into a situation knowing full well that I was standing there and chose to ruin a photo opportunity. I was pointing put that this happens all the time, and the message was, when you are out shooting pay attention to other people.  If this had of been another person with credentials I would have posted the photo and said that, it just happen to be an amateur this time.

A couple of you had better stay off the gun ranges if you ever take up shooting, there may be someone behind you, already set up.


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## runnah (Aug 15, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> A couple of you had better stay off the gun ranges if you ever take up shooting, there may be someone behind you, already set up.



Just because someone is a professional sniper doesn't mean I can't walk infr..*BANG*.


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## manaheim (Aug 15, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Some understand the point I was trying to get across and some don't, that is fine. I never said pros run the photo world, I never said the pros deserve the right of way. I pointed out that another camera owner walked into a situation knowing full well that I was standing there and chose to ruin a photo opportunity. I was pointing put that this happens all the time, and the message was, when you are out shooting pay attention to other people. If this had of been another person with credentials I would have posted the photo and said that, it just happen to be an amateur this time.
> 
> A couple of you had better stay off the gun ranges if you ever take up shooting, there may be someone behind you, already set up.



The problem is you attributed it to a pro/amateur thing, which basically amounts to class warfare... particularly on TPF.  Frankly I'm surprised it didn't turn into a riot.  I'll tell you that I've outright proposed that any thread with the word "professional" in the title get insta-locked.


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## runnah (Aug 15, 2013)

manaheim said:


> I'll tell you that I've outright proposed that any thread with the word "professional" in the title get insta-locked.



As an amateur moderator I disagree with this.


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## Steve5D (Aug 15, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > But in all seriousness, that is not what I am saying. I may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis. The problem being photographers don't have a place of work, in this context, that doesn't include the public and amateurs. Something to be accepted, its not going to change. I find the idea that because a photographer is out in a public place and has to deal with the general public to get paid, doesn't mean they are more important or above anyone else. Just because they are getting paid to do what they are doing. Its an elitist attitude and would also be considered rude. So as I stated before, it goes both ways. The excuse "because its my job" is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion. Overread stated it pretty simply.
> ...



If a "security fence" is such that someone can jump over it, then it's not truly a "security fence" at all.

The failing here isn't some fence, or even in some guy's insistence on jumping that fence to get a picture. The failing here is with security. Where were they?

If the guy was able to remain long enough to get a picture, turn and smile, then turn and get another one, then security personnel were too far away. I'm not saying the guy wasn't a dick, but he's not the only problem...


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## SCraig (Aug 15, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Some understand the point I was trying to get across and some don't, that is fine. I never said pros run the photo world, I never said the pros deserve the right of way. I pointed out that another camera owner walked into a situation knowing full well that I was standing there and chose to ruin a photo opportunity. I was pointing put that this happens all the time, and the message was, when you are out shooting pay attention to other people.  If this had of been another person with credentials I would have posted the photo and said that, it just happen to be an amateur this time.



I got your point, and I understand it.  You aren't the one I was pointing an electronic finger at.  I apologize if I gave that impression, it wasn't my intent.

MY point is that there are a lot of so-called "Professionals" (again not meaning you) that are of the opinion that simply being paid gives them rights over others, even if the person paying them has nothing to do with the event.  I promise that for every instance of an "Amateur" getting in your way I can quote a similar situation where a "Professional" got in mine.  Unless a professional photographer has been hired by the organizer of an event, or the organizer has made special provisions for them, then they are no more and no less a visitor than anyone else.  I have no objection in pointing that out to them when the occasion arises.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 15, 2013)

To be honest about the 12 days I was shooting, security was a joke. I used this photo as it was one of the few situations that directly affected me doing my job. There were all kinds of times when spectators were allowed to roam around where they wanted, in one case the Canadian Press photographer was told to leave an area but the spectators were allowed to remain.  This was not one of the most secure events I covered,  the only people that seemed to get harassed by security were the accredited photographers. But that's another issue that has been going on for decades.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 15, 2013)

SCraig said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > Some understand the point I was trying to get across and some don't, that is fine. I never said pros run the photo world, I never said the pros deserve the right of way. I pointed out that another camera owner walked into a situation knowing full well that I was standing there and chose to ruin a photo opportunity. I was pointing put that this happens all the time, and the message was, when you are out shooting pay attention to other people.  If this had of been another person with credentials I would have posted the photo and said that, it just happen to be an amateur this time.
> ...




I understand it wasn't a personal thing. I agree that there are lots of "wanna be professionals" that are being paid, and they feel because they are being paid it puts them on a higher plain than those that aren't, believe me I've been around this more times than I can remember.  My thinking on the photographer that has been hired to cover an event, and I have been in this situation many times, that person has a responsibility to make sure that other photographers are put into positions where they can also shoot from. The event photographer should not be the person that is always in the way of the other photographers.


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## vintagesnaps (Aug 15, 2013)

I was wondering about security at these games..... in my experience security is usually tighter than this, especially in this day and age. Not that someone wouldn't go around a roped off area (they do, or at least try), but an usher or security type would usually make them move and not allow them to stay in a restricted area.

It can be challenging enough to work around fans in and out of their seats and kids running around and the TV crews and the mascot tossing goodies into the stands and the concession workers carrying cotton candy over their heads - I enjoy it but it takes figuring out how to work around it all - then to have some nitwit with a camera get in a photographer's way?? Made me cringe seeing this photo. 

Legitimate credentialed photographers _are_ likely going to have special access to areas that are off limits to spectators; that doesn't mean a photographer would have to be rude or inconsiderate - to me having a pass was a privilege and a responsibility. Maybe I've been lucky that my experience has been with photographers working alongside each other and able to share their space and accessibility.


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## runnah (Aug 15, 2013)

vintagesnaps said:


> I was wondering about security at these games..... in my experience security is usually tighter than this, especially in this day and age. Not that someone wouldn't go around a roped off area (they do, or at least try), but an usher or security type would usually make them move and not allow them to stay in a restricted area.



It's Canada.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 15, 2013)

It's also a low key sports  event by most standards, well apart from the 4200 athletes.  The security people are all volunteers, some of them let the power drift to their heads and cause more problems than they solve, others do everything as they are told, and some are too nice to be working security, and the rest have not got a single clue what they are suppose to be doing.  Then we have the officials telling us where we can and can't go, even though we have the correct numbers on our passes to allow us to go to these areas. I was told at soccer yesterday that I was wearing the wrong colour shirt and the officials were concerned that they would mistake me for a player, that was a fun conversation, I thought the cameras would give them a tip, I offered to take my shirt off and stand there in my shorts but that wasn't an option for them.  They ended up giving me an officials jersey to wear, like that helped.  The funny thing is, I wasn't standing on the field, I was back in a corner against a fence sitting on the grass.  This is the kind of thing that we get to deal with almost every day.


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## pixmedic (Aug 15, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> It's also a low key sports  event by most standards, well apart from the 4200 athletes.  The security people are all volunteers, some of them let the power drift to their heads and cause more problems than they solve, others do everything as they are told, and some are too nice to be working security, and the rest have not got a single clue what they are suppose to be doing.  Then we have the officials telling us where we can and can't go, even though we have the correct numbers on our passes to allow us to go to these areas. I was told at soccer yesterday that I was wearing the wrong colour shirt and the officials were concerned that they would mistake me for a player, that was a fun conversation, I thought the cameras would give them a tip, I offered to take my shirt off and stand there in my shorts but that wasn't an option for them.  They ended up giving me an officials jersey to wear, like that helped.  The funny thing is, I wasn't standing on the field, I was back in a corner against a fence sitting on the grass.  This is the kind of thing that we get to deal with almost every day.



you should have taken the officials jersey, then run out on to the field and started calling fouls!


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 15, 2013)

DarkShadow said:


> I wish people where like that here in CT,they will run you down with there cars.I know it's not about the state per say but we seem to have all the loony tunes here.A couple from New York City moved next door to me and the first comments about the drivers here,That they take the cake and people think New York driving is bad.



CT is the "Me First" state. (Most) Everyone believe they are entitled. That's why I got the hell out of there when I had a chance.


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## HughGuessWho (Aug 15, 2013)

manaheim said:


> We live in a society where you stop your car and let people walk across the parking lot ... and the people STROLL ... DIAGONALLY ... in front of you ... no hurry, there pardner, take your time.
> 
> It's not a Pro or Amateur issue.  It's just a people and consideration issue.



^ That. Exactly.


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## Mach0 (Aug 15, 2013)

HughGuessWho said:


> CT is the "Me First" state. (Most) Everyone believe they are entitled. That's why I got the hell out of there when I had a chance.



Hahah just gotta learn to pay attention. I still live here and I know exactly what you are talking about .


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## play18now (Aug 15, 2013)

Mach0 said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > CT is the "Me First" state. (Most) Everyone believe they are entitled. That's why I got the hell out of there when I had a chance.
> ...



I'm leaving for Southern California for school in a week.  Want to compare notes?  I'm not a professional, and only have one side of the picture because of that.  But to me, this isn't a professional and amateur issue.  It's a people and respect issue.  The scary part is that few people these days have any respect at all.  I wouldn't walk in front of anyone taking a picture without making sure I wouldn't ruin whatever shot they were setting up or currently taking, and I would hope that anyone else, regardless of their profession, would extend the same courtesy to me.  If only that would actually happen all the time..


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## tecboy (Aug 15, 2013)

This shot was taken at WWE SmackDown in CA. I don't care he is professional or amateur.  I want to go over there and body slam this videographer on the table.  Smack him with a folding chair.  Do submission, suplex, pile driver, sharp shooter, thumbing in the eye, back breaking, hit in the groin, and everything else!


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 16, 2013)

tecboy;3029526]View attachment 52770

This shot was taken at WWE SmackDown in CA. I don't care he is professional or amateur. I want to go over there and body slam this videographer on the table. Smack him with a folding chair. Do submission, suplex, pile driver, sharp shooter, thumbing in the eye, back breaking, hit in the groin, and everything else![/QUOTE]

Unfortunately TV rules, always has, always will.  Watch any big sporting event and when you see those in your face tight shots, know that there are dozens of photographers getting pissed off because tv is in the way again.  There is no love between stills and video.  When the networks are paying millions to cover events they really don't care about who's behind them.  Tv dictates photo positions, what colour clothes photographers have to wear if they are working the floor, the idea is have them in black so they blend and don't stand out.  I wore a bright blue jacket to one event and came close to getting tossed out, because I refused to change, guess what, I had to take the jacket off or leave.  Like I said no love lost between tv and still, and in a lot of cases they aren't even willing to try and work out any solutions.


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## EIngerson (Aug 16, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > runnah said:
> ...



That's a joke right? If I have the same access to an area that you do, I could care less what you're there for or who you work for. That's the lamest argument I've heard yet.


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## rexbobcat (Aug 16, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > Stevepwns said:
> ...



That's probably because you missed my point.

I'm not saying you should care. I'm saying that - thinking that a pro is "pretentious" just because he's trying to put food on the table is dumb. 

How can one be pretentious if they're simply fulfilling their purpose?

And I'm also saying that if I have a job to do then don't always expect me to just find another spot or be like "would you ever so kindly step to your right." I might say "excuse me" but beyond that I'm going to try and get a shot regardless of your opinion of me.

I guess I made the mistake of believing in civility or mutual understanding. My bad.


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## 480sparky (Aug 16, 2013)

Stevepwns said:


> ......... I  may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis.......



Well, you are wrong on this. Just think of all the building professionals (myself included) that are affected every time Joe Sixpack waddles into Home Depot and loads up on shingles or PVC pipe or wire or two-bys......

Ya think auto mechanics are thrilled with O'Rileys and AutoZone?


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## EIngerson (Aug 16, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> EIngerson said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...



I got your point, but it has nothing to do with being a pro or an amateur. It's simple common courtesy that's lacking from the guy in Imagemaker's shot. In that instance I would have said more than "excuse me." 

It becomes pretentious when someone thinks the world owes them something because they are a "Pro" photographer.


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## manaheim (Aug 16, 2013)

Ok, look.

I don't like this thread. At all.  It hasn't gone completely off the rails yet, but it's teetering... and it's going to flip right over in about 6-8 more posts.  Tops.

I'll tell you flat-out that I'm about <-this-> close to starting a campaign of just locking ANY thread that has the word AMATEUR or PROFESSIONAL in the topic, because they ALWAYS devolve and I'm really EXTREMELY tired of it.

I don't feel like the thread has really gotten to a point where I can arguably justify locking it, so I won't... so you can consider this my firm warning.


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## pixmedic (Aug 16, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > ......... I  may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis.......
> ...



OH OH OH O'Rileys has such a catchy jingle though!


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## EIngerson (Aug 16, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Ok, look.
> 
> I don't like this thread. At all.  It hasn't gone completely off the rails yet, but it's teetering... and it's going to flip right over in about 6-8 more posts.  Tops.
> 
> ...




I bet you won't. :greenpbl:


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## 480sparky (Aug 16, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> OH OH OH O'Rileys has such a catchy jingle though!



I like Pep Boys jingle better....._Manny, Moe and Jack!
_


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## pharmakon (Aug 16, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Stevepwns said:
> 
> 
> > ......... I  may be wrong, but I think photography would be the only real career where amateurs actually effect the professionals on a regular basis.......
> ...



For me it's always "Dr." neighbor. I have wasted countless valuable minutes responding to ridiculous claims such as "My neighbor said I won't need to take this Lamisil if I just cover the toenail with mayonnaise three times a day..."


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 16, 2013)

manaheim said:


> Ok, look.
> 
> I don't like this thread. At all. It hasn't gone completely off the rails yet, but it's teetering... and it's going to flip right over in about 6-8 more posts. Tops.
> 
> ...



Lock the threads that exclude the words professional or amateur and you may as well just shut the site down, there have been so many threads on here that have been locked simply because some Admin didn't agree with what was being said, or what was said. I understand that the admins have to keep things under some kind of control, but having someone come on and threaten to shut down a thread that I might post making a statement about why amateurs don't understand what being a professional photographer has to put up with, or giving people my insight to how I cover events as a professional.  Go right ahead and pull the power play, don't threaten, just do it.  It would be an amateur move.

One of the few professional photographers on this site that has the guts to be honest.


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## manaheim (Aug 16, 2013)

And that's a lock.


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