# In need of some disection here...



## JaimeGibb (Jul 25, 2008)

Ok...let me start with the explanation of these photos. My boyfriend, Brian, is a musician in a band with another guy, Shane (Check them out at www.teamtrance.com and download free music!! Haha). They wanted me to try and take some promo shots. I wanted this scheduled around 6:30 as to avoid harsh lighting. However, of COURSE, we pull up and a huge storm cloud is hovering overhead. Now evening light alone = great lighting. A cloudy day alone also = great lighting. But mix clouds AND evening?! It was almost as if it was 8:00. 

So again: 6:30-7:00 PM with a cloud covered sky.
No tripod
Using aperture priority
Mainly using Sigma 70-200mm, interspersed with Canon 85mm and my kit lens with a wide angle attachment.

Here are the SOOC results...completely untouched, not even cropped yet:

1) 70-200mm; I was laying on my car hood below, about 20 feet away.





2) Kit lens with wide angle attachment. That light coming in is a car headlight; we thought it may give a cool effect.




3) I believe this was also my 70-200mm, but could be the 85mm...





Now for the problem: THEY SUCK! When zoomed in, they are noisy, especially number one, which is everyones favorite but its so noisy! And, Brian, the one crouched down, is out of focus. In the second, it's just fuzzy and noisy. The third, Bri is out of focus again. Which isnt really BAD, Shane, the bald guy, is the singer/songwriter so its not odd to have that guy be the only in focus guy but...I didnt PLAN for that photo to be that way...know what I mean? So Im assuming I should have set my exposure differently...Im assuming they are noisy because a high ISO was needed with the lighting...maybe I should have had a tripod...Bah. ALSO, I have a Speedlight flash attached to my camera, but I wasnt really sure how to use it in this situation! There was nothing to bounce the light off of, it didnt reach the guys when they were on top of the trailor, and if it was right in their faces they were blown out. But without it, the pics were fuzzy.

I am going to be reshooting this and I basically would LOVE you r guys' opinions on 1) what went wrong during this shoot, and 2) how I can improve and totally rock the reshoot? How can I effectivly use my flash? And how should my camera settings be? Hopefully the next shoot wont be in these same weather conditions...

You guys are amazing and I really appreciate your comments, both good and bad, thats how I learn!! So bring it on!!!


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## Big Mike (Jul 25, 2008)

Definitely some potential here, but yes, they could certainly be better.

You are on the right track with the head lights.  Off camera lighting gives form to your models and can add a dramatic effect.  If you are shooting outdoor, you might try underexposing the ambient light and then using flash to light them up.  This can be really cool with cloudy days because it can give the sky a menacing feel.  
So if you put those things together, you would underexpose the ambient light, then use 'off camera flash' to light them up. 

If you don't have a way of getting your flash, off your camera...I suggest finding a way.  There are many threads here about how to do that.  It really is one of the biggest things you can do to improve your photography.

Obviously, it's important to use an aperture that will give you the DOF you need for the shot.  

Lastly, don't forget about processing & editing the images afterward.  With this type of photography, you will probably have a lot more freedom to do some heavy editing.  If you are not up to the editing, consider having someone else do it for you.  That is actually pretty common in professional photography.


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## JaimeGibb (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks so much Big Mike!

I definitly want to edit these, but I almost wonder if they are TOO unsharp or TOO out of focus and noisy...ya know?


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## Zansho (Jul 25, 2008)

Indeed, I echo everything mike said.  I would do the exact same thing, use a slower shutter speed and drag down your ambient exposure (e.g. if your shutter speed for ambient exposure reads 1/200th of a second, and you want to bring it down a bit, use 1/125th or 1/60th).  I'd put your flash off camera, so you can give your subjects more shape and form, and create more dramatic shadows than straight on flash would.  

Your aperture controls the flash exposure. Shutter speed controls the ambient exposure.  Keep those two traits in mind when you're outdoors shooting, and if needed, increase your ISO a bit so you can increase the power of the flash's output.  Generally speaking, for every stop of ISO, flash output increases about 1.5x it's normal factor.  Depth of Field is critical here, since you have subjects that are a bit of a distance away from each other.

As for editing them, I'm afraid they might be too soft for any kind of sharpening method to work effectively.  Make sure you have your focus selected appropriately, sometimes if you focus on a subject and then recompose, you still get an out of focus image.  You could always try using a High Pass Filter on the image, then switching the opacity of the High Pass Filter layer to Soft light for some sharpening, but I'd be careful of overdoing it for fear of haloing.


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## heip (Jul 25, 2008)

Made it kinda' grungy and over sharpened it, opened up the right side of their faces. (our left)


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## JaimeGibb (Jul 25, 2008)

Hey wow, I like that edit!! How did you do that border??


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## heip (Jul 25, 2008)

It's a digital mat and some texture underneath it from Design House.


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## Richard (Jul 25, 2008)

First thing I would do is turn the camera to manual. In low light you most likely will need full control. Then I would make sure to shoot RAW this will give you some room to underexpose the image and bring it up later in PP, while holding detail. 

Now with the telephoto lenses you mentioned, it will be a little more of a challenge because the longer the lens the faster your shutter has to be to avoid camera shake. So if you can bring a wider angle lens then you will have some flexibility in your shutter. A wider lens will also increase your depth of field. Or you could just make sure your subjects are standing on the same plane of focus (the same distance from the camera). This would make it easy to get both subjects in focus.

These tips could give you some extra room to have a better ISO setting. Also a program that is worth investing in would be a noise reduction program. I use Noiseware and love it!! 

A telephoto lens isn't that great in a low light situation, when basically using natural light.


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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

You really need some more DOF to handle these focus issues.


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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)




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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)




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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)




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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

What's wrong with you guys? Ditch your stupid post-processing band-aids and quit editing the photos...they're out of focus. They need a re-shoot.


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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)

Alpha, you are a miserable person, what does it matter to you if I sit here all day and play with those photos?  She asked for help.....


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 25, 2008)

keep in mind you have 2 exposures here, ambient light which changes whichever way they tun (facing sun or not etc..) 

and the second is the flash, 

take into account if the bright sky is in your background, you will need a hella lot of light to balance it out. 

i.e. you will be hard pressed to balance the noontime sun with a single sb-24 or canon 580. Although we should try it to see if its possible... prob get bad results. 

This is why with powerful strobes you can make daytime look like night, as you will notice in some of the commercial prints in magazines for shoes and clothes that take place in parking lots etc..


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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

Crimsonandwhite said:


> Alpha, you are a miserable person, what does it matter to you if I sit here all day and play with those photos?  She asked for help.....



It matters because you gave what was, in my opinion, terrible advice. The focus cannot be corrected in post, and it's disingenuous to suggest that it can be corrected, or the photo processed heavily enough to distract from the fact that it's out of focus. It needs a re-shoot, plain and simple. As far as I'm concerned, that's not my "purely subjective" opinion, but a suggestion based on the quite objective fact that the shots are out of focus and it's doesn't appear that was really the intention.


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## Zansho (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm sort of inclined to agree with alpha, even if his wording is a bit harsh.  If it's out of focus, and nothing that I want in the image is even properly exposed and there's really no hope of bringing it back, I don't bother.

It definitely needs a re-shoot. I understand wanting to help, but the best way you can help her is to tell her how to re-shoot it.  

hmm.. maybe I should write a tutorial about flash photography, explaining the basics on my blog...


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## Zansho (Jul 25, 2008)

By the way, when you do your reshoot, keep several things in mind. 

Watch your backgrounds and any extraneous elements that can detract from your image.  Remember what it is you're shooting - your band boys.  The trees in the first image really do not contribute anything positive to the image, and it serves to reduce contrast from your subjects - your subject's black shirts are ALMOST blending in with the trees, which is not a good idea.

Secondly, like stated previously, I'd take your camera's flash and put it on a light stand and fire it remotely (or with a cord attached).  Maybe 45 degrees off from you and your subject would be a start.  What this does, is help create some shadows on your subjects, and more depth, and more flattering images.  

This is an example:







Nevermind the subject matter, I'm just trying to show how effective off camera lighting is.

In this one, I actually dropped the shutter down a bit to make the background more darker, instead of the bright silver/grey it normally is.  I used my aperture to control my flash's output, and voila, pretty nicely balanced image!  

Keep in mind though, you'll want to make sure you have enough Depth of Field to catch both guys in the image.  This will help you in a pinch, but you really should know this somewhat off the top of your head.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

This will help you calculate where you need to stand, what focal length you're using, and what f-stop you need to get the appropriate amount of DoF.


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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)

Alpha said:


> It matters because you gave what was, in my opinion, terrible advice. The focus cannot be corrected in post, and it's disingenuous to suggest that it can be corrected, or the photo processed heavily enough to distract from the fact that it's out of focus. It needs a re-shoot, plain and simple. As far as I'm concerned, that's not my "purely subjective" opinion, but a suggestion based on the quite objective fact that the shots are out of focus and it's doesn't appear that was really the intention.


 
Well I acutally said nothing and just posted some PP effects to her current photos.  I know what you are saying but I also like the challenge of turning something that is bad into something usable.  Now is that what you suggest is done with the photos?  Obviously not, but I can still give it a go.  Maybe she likes it, maybe her client likes it, maybe they hate it and a re-shoot is in order, but for you to come out and trash my PP work is childish and rude.


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## Alpha (Jul 25, 2008)

Crimsonandwhite said:


> Well I acutally said nothing and just posted some PP effects to her current photos.  I know what you are saying but I also like the challenge of turning something that is bad into something usable.  Now is that what you suggest is done with the photos?  Obviously not, but I can still give it a go.  Maybe she likes it, maybe her client likes it, maybe they hate it and a re-shoot is in order, but for you to come out and trash my PP work is childish and rude.



Aside from the fact that your processing is amateur at best, posting repeated edits simply sends the wrong message. One doesn't learn to shoot by learning to salvage.


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## Crimsonandwhite (Jul 25, 2008)

LOL, good luck sir.....


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## JaimeGibb (Jul 26, 2008)

Woah woah woah!!! Haha.

First off, Alpha, you are right. This definitly needs a reshoot, and part of the reason I came here was to figure out how to do it better next time. I also agree that over-processing a bad photo doent make it a good photo.

CrimsonandWhite, I do appreciate the edits though, because the band actually likes some of these shots and likes the "grungy" look to them (grungyness meaning all the noise and out of focusness...) So until I can reshoot, Ill have to PP a shot to let them use temporarily. 

Zansho, I appreciate your insight so much, I have read your posts and your blog and really admire your work. I hope to get to that level someday. 

Thorhammer, heip and Richard, also thank you for the feedback, I am trying to take it all in!!

Ok so basically, I need to shoot at a different time of day, understand my settings more so i can shoot in full manual mode (still trying to learn this!) and get my flash off-camera. Is there a cheap way to do this? I definitly cant afford any new equipment right now, and need to work with what I currently have. I am willing however to purchase something that will help me out that wont cost too much. 

So is there a cheap way to get my flash off-camera? If not, how can I utilize it as-is?
Would a reflector help in a situation like this?
And would a tripod help me get sharper images, maybe while using my 85mm as opposed to my 70-200mm?


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## toofpaste (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> What's wrong with you guys? Ditch your stupid post-processing band-aids and quit editing the photos...they're out of focus. They need a re-shoot.


 


Crimsonandwhite said:


> Alpha, you are a miserable person, what does it matter to you if I sit here all day and play with those photos? She asked for help.....


 
I don't care what they say about you Alpha....You're ****ing hilarious


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

JaimeGibb said:


> So is there a cheap way to get my flash off-camera? If not, how can I utilize it as-is?
> Would a reflector help in a situation like this?
> And would a tripod help me get sharper images, maybe while using my 85mm as opposed to my 70-200mm?



If you shoot at the right time of day, you won't need the flash or a reflector. Shoot when the light is even, in morning or just before dusk. 

Your focus problem boils down to being too close to the subjects. At this distance, it isn't possible for the lens to keep both subjects in focus simultaneously no matter how much you stop down. So, you need to back up. Google hyperfocal focusing and calculate the hyperfocal distance for your lens. The subject closest to you should be just beyond that point. The one behind him will automatically be in focus. This way guarantees that both subjects are totally in focus. 

As for sharpness, shoot it at f8 if you can and if you've got any filters on the lens, take them off.


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## JaimeGibb (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> If you shoot at the right time of day, you won't need the flash or a reflector. Shoot when the light is even, in morning or just before dusk.
> 
> Your focus problem boils down to being too close to the subjects. At this distance, it isn't possible for the lens to keep both subjects in focus simultaneously no matter how much you stop down. So, you need to back up. Google hyperfocal focusing and calculate the hyperfocal distance for your lens. The subject closest to you should be just beyond that point. The one behind him will automatically be in focus. This way guarantees that both subjects are totally in focus.
> 
> As for sharpness, shoot it at f8 if you can and if you've got any filters on the lens, take them off.



Wow, I never knew that!! Thank you SO much! Im always trying to learn


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## rubbertree (Jul 26, 2008)

great advice.
Why take the filters off?


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> If you shoot at the right time of day, you won't need the flash or a reflector. Shoot when the light is even, in morning or just before dusk.
> 
> Your focus problem boils down to being too close to the subjects. At this distance, it isn't possible for the lens to keep both subjects in focus simultaneously no matter how much you stop down. So, you need to back up. Google hyperfocal focusing and calculate the hyperfocal distance for your lens. The subject closest to you should be just beyond that point. The one behind him will automatically be in focus. This way guarantees that both subjects are totally in focus.
> 
> As for sharpness, shoot it at f8 if you can and if you've got any filters on the lens, take them off.



I have to completely disagree although you can get fantastic shots at dusk the shadows are too much 99% of the time for todays small albeit advanced sensors on most DSLRs, For a really artistic intimate look available light is great, but for anything really commercial you really need at least a reflector to even out shadows, can even be a concrete wall the light is bouncing off, but its evening the shadows.

A lot of the really good work you cant hardly tell a strobe/flash was used cause its used properly and diffused basically just there to ease out the shadows a bit and maybe add emphasis on boots or hair or what not. 

just my opinion, I might be wrong but at least take some reflectors with you and if your going at dusk make sure there white or maybe 50% gold, but mostly white. Silver prob wont give you enough light @ dusk


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

I don't see the harm in bringing a reflector, but I don't see that much benefit. With ambient light levels even and slightly low, without a very large reflector you aren't likely to be able to throw very much onto your subject.


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

rubbertree said:


> great advice.
> Why take the filters off?



More glass in front of your glass is generally bad. With a really good multicoated UV filter you aren't likely to affect image quality very much, but if you're not at risk of screwing up your lens by removing the filter, I see no reason not to.


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> I don't see the harm in bringing a reflector, but I don't see that much benefit. With ambient light levels even and slightly low, without a very large reflector you aren't likely to be able to throw very much onto your subject.



you can bounce your flash off the relfector at half power and perfectly fill racoon eyes. Need another person to hold though.....

I know what your saying though , in a perfect world the camera could see as we see, you could get away with a lot more with medium format prob, or maybe ditigal MF, but for 90% of the outdoor portrait shooters the equipment needs a little helping with tonality


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

But the point of shooting in lower, even light is that you can get buy without the flash and take care of the rest in post.


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 26, 2008)

there is no such thing as "naturally occuring *lower* AND *even* light, "

noon time is the most bright and also most even light. Where is your shadow at noon ? 

noon light is even vertically, although its more even landscape with dusk light, 
So youll be trading head shadows on neck for a nose or chin shadow that goes into the eye or forehead. same thing

Dusk might have less overall shadow to light contrast but its still waaay too much contrast for a camera to even out the shadows, 
--its just a lot easier near dusk to fill in the shadows due to the lower power of the light and also the golden red color is nice looking , thats all. youll proably get worse shadows at dusk, 

instead of tendency to blow out highlights during noon but still retain exposure in subject, youll get the highlights exposed but the subject will look very dark and the shadows will be longer and darker.

I know what your saying in theory makes some sense, its just not how it works in practice due to things you cannot control like orientation of the sun vs background stuff and elevation of land,  youll have the  almost perfect shot and then  the sun dips below  a hill, or you have to use iso 1600 destroying the clients ability to crop in and adjust much light in PS ,

 it just doesn't work to have zero lighting @ dusk for a commercial shoot. Or if it does work its very rare, why would a client hire you when so many things could go wrong and you have no way to fix the problem, that why you use lights and reflectors, its more for the unseen things that change and happen. you have to make the shot happen not be at the mercy of the sun and moon.


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## Richard (Jul 26, 2008)

JaimeGibb said:


> Woah woah woah!!! Haha.
> 
> 
> So is there a cheap way to get my flash off-camera?


 

You can use a sync cord http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/375157-REG/Interfit_INT657_PC_Male_to_PC.html

Your flash and camera need a pc sync terminal. Even if you flash doesn't have a pc terminal you can buy a hotshoe adapter.

OR

If you want to go wireless I would wait till the radiopopper Jr. comes out. They are going to be very affordable. 
http://radiopopper.com/products/view/radiopopper_jr

OR

If you can't wait you can go to ebay and buy a Catus Trigger set for around 50 bucks, but they are not really realiable, even though they do work better and go further distance when you do a DIY MOD.


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

THORHAMMER said:


> there is no such thing as "naturally occuring *lower* AND *even* light, "
> 
> noon time is the most bright and also most even light. Where is your shadow at noon ?
> 
> ...



I really am at a loss to understand what exactly you're talking about. I have done more shoots than I can count in the few hours after sunrise and before sunset, where the light has been even and, compared to the rest of the day, low. Aside from the fact that what I proposed most certainly can work for landscape photography, that's neither her nor there. This is a shoot in a warehouse type area. Whatever variables you think are problematic can easily be addressed by scouting the location beforehand.


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm talking about how the sun moves low as it gets later and the shadows go from top to bottom to sideways a little. not landscape shooting !! LOL 

If you can get good commercial work using no lights or reflectors at dusk, more power to you. Congrats thats amazing. Id love to see some of it sometime !!


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## Alpha (Jul 26, 2008)

THORHAMMER said:


> I'm talking about how the sun moves low as it gets later and the shadows go from top to bottom to sideways a little. not landscape shooting !! LOL
> 
> If you can get good commercial work using no lights or reflectors at dusk, more power to you. Congrats thats amazing. Id love to see some of it sometime !!



Personally I'd use strobes since I own a set. However, if you took away my strobes I'd have no problem getting good even light and taking care of the rest in post.


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## butterflygirl (Jul 29, 2008)

[So is there a cheap way to get my flash off-camera? If not, how can I utilize it as-is?
Would a reflector help in a situation like this?
And would a tripod help me get sharper images, maybe while using my 85mm as opposed to my 70-200mm?[/quote]

Do you have two flashes where one can act like a slave?

I use a Smith-Victor stand for my 430ex flash that I can mount onto any stand - it's here http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48817-REG/Smith_Victor_401935_Stand_Flash_Shoe.html

It's really cheap!

Then I use my 580ex on camera which triggers by 430ex.

If not, there must be a way to connect your flash to your camera with a cord. It just might not provide much mobility.


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## THORHAMMER (Jul 29, 2008)

if you have that setup, you can use one hot shoe cable to extend the reach of the 580 and place the 430 wherever you want within 30 feet or so like your allready doing. Just do that for now unless you want to spend 200$ + for proper transmitters and recievers that are not IR but RF will go further and around corners and through things. pocket wizzards, elinchrom skyports, these are both the only ones I receommend from personal experience. 

get the cable I think the expensive one is 40-50 bucks, maybe there is a good 3rd party one out there a little less, even if you get the transcievers you can always use the cable to mount the main flash high up on a bracket.

try a tripod when your shooting dusk, itll help you plan more , 
and make sure your shutter speed is below 250 or youll get black bars the synch speed on the 20D is 250 for most flash units 

Bring a ND#4 filter or higher with you, if your having problems getting your shutter speed below 250. But try using narrower Fstop first, like F5.6 - F9 if still not able to get shutter down to 250 then make sure your at iso 100, then if still not slow enough put on the ND, you might also need that if you want to use external flash and also small Depth of Field at the same time. 

Whatever you do, in my opinion dont get the optical triggers that go for cheap on ebay. If you need to rely on this really they will malfunction sometime when you need them, and other camera flashes can set them off, and the distance is not too far. Save your money and pick up real transmitters wether you decide to go canon IR, or PW RF type setup get a decent system itll last you 30 times longer and you can also use it to shoot events, parties, and weddings. 
You cant rely on optical slaves when you have other cameras around shooting off flashes too..


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