# Very First Time...



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

Hello!

I'm wondering if any of you have advice or tips for me....

I recently got a DSLR (2 months ago) and have been practicing a ton. Today, I was asked to do a paid shoot for a foster dog! I would love to help these guys out.

How much did you charge your first ever client? Cost of doing business would be crazy high right now, since so far it's only the one person. I'm not sure where this is going to take me, but I'd like to explore  I have *no* clue what to do in this department, so any tips would be great. 

Do you have any tips regarding being professional during a shoot? Things that will help, things that won't? Tips for posing, selecting a space, set up in general? I typically practice with my own dog who has a ton of training, so it will be very different I'm sure. I'm only just beginning to use flash, so I may or may not use it in the images.

Any advice at all would be wonderful. Thank you!!


----------



## snerd (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm at a loss for words. Hopefully other members can help you out.


----------



## Ysarex (Jan 11, 2015)

Do it for free. Thank the dog owner profusely for his/her time giving you a chance to practice. Offer to buy him/her lunch.

Joe


----------



## Forkie (Jan 11, 2015)

I've been photographing for about 9 years.  Product photography has been my day job for the last 5 and I decided around Christmas 2014 that I wanted to do portraits for a living.  It has taken me just over a year of building my portfolio and technique in this new area of photography (despite my previous 7-8 years in other genres) by using up my annual leave and shooting people for _free_ to reach a style I would be happy to charge for and I have my first paid headshot session in 2 weeks time with a guy who found out about me by word of mouth from one of my free clients.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - that's up to you and your client, but I would think very carefully about whether _you_ would pay money for your photos after only _2 months_ of holding a DSLR camera before accepting money from someone else.

Perhaps you could do it in exchange for a beer first, and see how you go?


----------



## Designer (Jan 11, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm wondering if any of you have advice or tips for me....
> 
> ...


Hey, welcome! 

What do you think?  Do you think your photography is worth charging money?  If so, you can discuss the amount with the dog owner.  If not, (and you should be completely realistic about this) just do it for free, or let them buy you lunch.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

Honestly, I really like a few of my shots already-enough to print them. Of course, I've taken a lot of shots of my dog, so that some came out well isn't surprising (especially since she's my own, so I am obviously biased). I've also been learning for much longer than I've had a DSLR-and I've had the full 2 months to spend on it, since I've been out of work. I tend to be pretty picky with art, and I know I have a long way to go, but I think I can provide what she wants. She was very enthusiastic. 

I think I might have made myself unclear-I'm pretty sure she wants to pay me because she knows I'm in a rough place with work, and she can afford to/likes my work more than the last photographer she used. She's asked twice, and has 2 dogs-even if I did charge, I would do portraits with her and both her dogs, and I've been debating doing it for free anyways. But I *would* like to see how I would go about pricing in the future, at an entry level, amount of time aside. She came to me first and offered-I just want to prepare well so that she is happy overall, and that I could build a business in the future if I wanted to peruse this instead of my academic career. I think I need to re-emphasize-she came to me asking to pay me, multiple times, after seeing what I've done so far. I expect to be able to make her happy with the shots, even if it means taking a lot of extra time to get things right. I've also been asked to do a few volunteer setups as a second photographer, which I've taken the opportunity from. Mostly the owners were asked to stand behind us to get their pet's focus, since it was a distracting environment, and we only had a few moments with each. Being honest, I only like a couple of the shots from this-but it was VERY fast, so the fact that I captured any I liked is a feat in itself.

In any case, I was going to discuss this with her. I wanted feedback first on what people started out with, how they went about organizing things so that the setup goes smoothly, etc. I'm pretty certain I will have natural, diffuse daylight to work with (it's overcast here frequently), and I can time this in the morning or evening since she is available at both. In all likelihood I would only ask her afterwards what she would have wanted to pay for them, but learning what is typical would be beneficial beforehand regardless. 

I don't mean to offend any other photographers-quite the opposite, I recommended she use those photographers first (there are a few pet photogs in the area), and she still wanted to do the photos with me. I had been planning for the future and learning, but this came up and I wanted to take the opportunity. I know many photographers are offended when they see inferior work for a low cost, but that is not the goal. Honestly, I was planning on surprising her at the end with free photos regardless of money being spent or otherwise. The post was about learning  And I was hoping for more emphasis on how to set things up and organize so that there is a guide, rather than doing a few poses and candid shots. I have practiced with a human friend who's never had photos done before, and I noticed the hardest part was getting her to relax. This is different with pets, but I want to put my friend at ease as well since getting photos of her with her own dog would also be good. She doesn't spoil herself enough. 

*tl;dr:* I was debating doing this for free and the money was for education/future reference purposes, mostly. I would still love tips for setting up and organizing the time I have. I hope I didn't overemphasize the part that was less important to me. 

Hope I didn't offend anyone. I do realize this is a very generous opportunity and that I've been lucky in this regard so far  I've had a lot of very willing models to practice with and learn from.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

Here's an example of the one I'd like to print for myself  If anyone has suggestions, I'd be open to that as well. I know this isn't perfect but I'm pretty happy with it  

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net...=53fe26d7eec0f8037bd413e0d12d9229&oe=5524F01D


----------



## vintagesnaps (Jan 11, 2015)

Some of the info. on this organization's website might be more relevant for photographers in the US but it might give you some idea what's going to be involved in photography as a business. American Society of Media Photographers

It seems to usually take photographers time to build up a reputation; it might take time to go from taking pictures of your own dog or a shoot for a friend, to doing pet photography that's professional quality on a consistent basis.

With this photo the dog's face looks sharp, but think about the framing, the ears are in the photo with space above but the paw's cropped off. I'd think about the background too, especially with stripes or straight lines you need to think how it'll look in your photos. A solid color blanket or rug might look better so you don't get out-of-focus splashes of color (like the yellow spot next to the dog). If you use something patterned notice how it's arranged and how it looks in your viewfinder (wrinkles, folds etc.).


----------



## robbins.photo (Jan 11, 2015)

snerd said:


> I'm at a loss for words. Hopefully other members can help you out.



Well,you can take "inconceivable".  I'm not really using it right now.  Lol


----------



## robbins.photo (Jan 11, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> Here's an example of the one I'd like to print for myself  If anyone has suggestions, I'd be open to that as well. I know this isn't perfect but I'm pretty happy with it
> 
> https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net...=53fe26d7eec0f8037bd413e0d12d9229&oe=5524F01D



Just curious, does the dog actually have heterochromia iridis or is that the lighting?


----------



## tirediron (Jan 11, 2015)

The most you could realistically expect to realize from a shoot like this is a couple of hundred dollars.  Given your experience, etc, my suggestion would be to do the shoot, show the owner the photographs and tell her to make a donation to the animal charity in your name.  A week later a few dollars will be spent and forgotten... the karma points, not so much.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

vintagesnaps said:


> Some of the info. on this organization's website might be more relevant for photographers in the US but it might give you some idea what's going to be involved in photography as a business. American Society of Media Photographers
> 
> It seems to usually take photographers time to build up a reputation; it might take time to go from taking pictures of your own dog or a shoot for a friend, to doing pet photography that's professional quality on a consistent basis.
> 
> With this photo the dog's face looks sharp, but think about the framing, the ears are in the photo with space above but the paw's cropped off. I'd think about the background too, especially with stripes or straight lines you need to think how it'll look in your photos. A solid color blanket or rug might look better so you don't get out-of-focus splashes of color (like the yellow spot next to the dog). If you use something patterned notice how it's arranged and how it looks in your viewfinder (wrinkles, folds etc.).



Thanks for the info! I did actually notice that, this was honestly just a shot taken in my room with the curtains as a backdrop and my destroyed blanket on top. This was originally a practice shot, to work on getting the depth of field I want. I know it's not perfect, but for some reason I still prefer her serious expression. I'd also have cloned out her tags, which I could still do, but I'd want to take my time with it since I'm not the greatest at cloning textures. I could probably work on the blanket, too, with a bit of time. 



robbins.photo said:


> Just curious, does the dog actually have heterochromia iridis or is that the lighting?



Yes! The other thing I didn't particularly love about the above photo was due to a space limitation-I have a borrowed softbox, and it's on the side with her lighter eye. I'd have preferred it on the other side, but it would have meant running power chords all over the place and wouldn't have at all been safe. Part of the reason I was so frustrated with the P&S before I've had was due to being unable to capture her without flash in motion, but the two eyes reflecting totally different light drove me nuts. I have no idea how you'd get that effect with lighting alone.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

tirediron said:


> The most you could realistically expect to realize from a shoot like this is a couple of hundred dollars.  Given your experience, etc, my suggestion would be to do the shoot, show the owner the photographs and tell her to make a donation to the animal charity in your name.  A week later a few dollars will be spent and forgotten... the karma points, not so much.



That is a fantastic idea, since we met through a rescue as well. I wasn't planning to even ask for a few hundred; I had no expectations for amount. I really think she just wanted to be supportive in my job hunt, and will probably leave it up to her  

I still think my focus or goal of this was to learn more about organizing a shoot, though. Do you have any suggestions regarding that? I really want her to feel comfortable and have fun during the process.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 11, 2015)

Meet the dog before-hand (if you haven't already) so he/she is comfortable with you, know where you're going to shoot, know how you're going to light, and and have your gear checked and ready.  If the dog is an active one, have his/her human take him/her out for a long walk beforehand.  Have some treats and a squeaky-toy handy so you can get some 'ear action'.  Above all... be patient!


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 11, 2015)

tirediron said:


> Meet the dog before-hand (if you haven't already) so he/she is comfortable with you, know where you're going to shoot, know how you're going to light, and and have your gear checked and ready.  If the dog is an active one, have his/her human take him/her out for a long walk beforehand.  Have some treats and a squeaky-toy handy so you can get some 'ear action'.  Above all... be patient!



The walk will happen before, she's very good about that-we may actually do the walk together, since that is how we know each other! I have a variety of pitches for squeaky toys, a harmonica, and can borrow a few of the dog's favorites, too. I plan on making salmon fudge, which is the highlight of every dog's day. 

Is it common for photographers to switch lenses in the middle? Depending on distance I may want to use a 50mm or telephoto. I have a fill flash I can use, but depending on the snow level the reflections from that may be sufficient.


----------



## dennybeall (Jan 11, 2015)

Kwenami, in case you haven't picked up on the undercurrents in the previous posts, let me touch on just a couple of points.
Photography is a complex effort and most of the professionals have spent thousands of hours practicing and learning their trade. They also have invested many thousands of dollars in equipment.
They expend all this effort and money in order to get work taking photographs to make a living.
There are many, many photo hobbyists and they are happy to assist anybody with photography.
Help with photography is well received but help with taking bread from professionals tables is not.
But that's just my opinion.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 11, 2015)

dennybeall said:


> Kwenami, in case you haven't picked up on the undercurrents in the previous posts, let me touch on just a couple of points.
> Photography is a complex effort and most of the professionals have spent thousands of hours practicing and learning their trade. They also have invested many thousands of dollars in equipment.
> They expend all this effort and money in order to get work taking photographs to make a living.
> There are many, many photo hobbyists and they are happy to assist anybody with photography.
> ...


I don't really think that a person doing one shoot for a rescue animal is going to cause any of us not to eat tonight.  While you're point is a good one, it's important to keep things in perspective.


----------



## tirediron (Jan 11, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> ...Is it common for photographers to switch lenses in the middle? Depending on distance I may want to use a 50mm or telephoto. I have a fill flash I can use, but depending on the snow level the reflections from that may be sufficient.


Absolutely...  in a 90 minute session I may switch lenses a half-dozen times.  Try and plan your sequences so you're not continually switching lenses, but there's nothing wrong with it.


----------



## Forkie (Jan 12, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> Here's an example of the one I'd like to print for myself  If anyone has suggestions, I'd be open to that as well. I know this isn't perfect but I'm pretty happy with it
> 
> https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net...=53fe26d7eec0f8037bd413e0d12d9229&oe=5524F01D




Actually, that's very nice shot.

I'm certainly not offended by you wanted to charge - I think anyone who wants to charge for their work at whatever stage they're at, they should just go for it if they're confident in their ability. 

The only reason I would err on the side of caution in the beginning is that payment brings with it added pressure.  The more you charge, the better your photos need to be for them to be worth it.  If you charge more than your current ability would seem to be worth, you can build a reputation that you don;t want before you've even got off the ground.

I can't offer any advice about how much to charge - I have no idea of the market in Canada, let alone your local area but having seen the photo you posted, with a little more care about the background so the image is a bit cleaner, I say good luck to you and I look forward to seeing what you do on the day!


----------



## robbins.photo (Jan 12, 2015)

tirediron said:


> I don't really think that a person doing one shoot for a rescue animal is going to cause any of us not to eat tonight.



Ok.. granted, but would it be ok if I lost sleep over it instead?


----------



## tirediron (Jan 12, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really think that a person doing one shoot for a rescue animal is going to cause any of us not to eat tonight.
> ...


 By all means Banana-breath; lose all the sleep you want!


----------



## robbins.photo (Jan 12, 2015)

tirediron said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



Woohoo!  It will be just like New Years Eve.  I'm putting you in charge of the parade btw.. lol


----------



## JerryVenz (Jan 12, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm wondering if any of you have advice or tips for me....
> 
> ...





I really don't think you're ready to be charging people for your work.  The image of your dog is just not up to professional standards.  However considering how long you've been doing this it's better than I expected!

I've been competing in state, national, and international print competitions for over 40-years, been a full time professional photographer for over 25-years (portraits and weddings) but I did not even consider charging individuals for my work until I had over 10-years experience in general photography. But that's just me!

In answer to your most important questions--I can't TELL you HOW TO BE PROFESIONAL.  You learn these things through experience--making mistakes (the best teaching method) and improving with each attempt.

Learninng these things cannot be done in a vacuum.  Some kind of formal education or at least targeted workshops with a mentor are necessary so that there are fewer gaps in your knowledge. Don't expect to get this education for free, either!  ALL of the best photography education I have received I paid dearly for and was money well spent.

Best of luck, Jerry W. Venz  M.Photog.Cr.CPP


----------



## vvcarpio (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm one who'd say take payment. Then be honest. Let client know he/she is your first. Taking payment (no matter how small -- no one has to know -- but  hopefully commensurate) puts you in that league of "paid photographers". The confidence you'd get then is priceless which you can then build on and I'm sure use wisely. You sound honest. I'm sure you would do everything to make the client happy and then some, so everyone will end up happy.


----------



## Forkie (Jan 12, 2015)

JerryVenz said:


> *Some kind of formal education or at least targeted workshops with a mentor are necessary so that there are fewer gaps in your knowledge.* Don't expect to get this education for free, either!  ALL of the best photography education I have received I paid dearly for and was money well spent.



This is not true and a formal education in photography is neither required nor necessary.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 12, 2015)

I realize I'm not a professional-I was toying with the idea of improving to that point instead of working in my chosen field (which has everything to do with light, since my specialization is in microwaves/photonics) and had not made the decision to charge. This was a REQUEST/OFFER. She knows I'm a hobbyist, and haven't done anything professionally. I refereed her to some younger professionals in the area, and she said she'd prefer if I did it. I don't like the amount I would make would in any way change the lifestyle of the people around me-she already had a photographer help, and disliked the photos, and I don't think she would spend a 200$ sitting fee for someone better for a dog that she's trying to help find a home. That could easily go to vet fees for another dog. I really do think she wants to help me out, and just happens to also like what I've taken so far. 

As for professionals charging-you had to start somewhere. Sure, it's a bit out of the ordinary to start so soon, but this is the opportunity I was given. I doubt you love every single photo you take, too, even if on average they are still much better. I'm currently job hunting and accepting anything that falls in my lap, so I will happily take on the extra pressure when she knows the situation fully and still wants to do this  

Also, I think the advice I was looking for wasn't so much how to be professional, but how to organize a shoot in a way that makes more sense. This may very well come from experience and trial and error only, but that's why I asked-someone with more experience may be willing to offer a tip or two that would help me significantly. I think in general, professionalism is a learned quality. I know that I can take classes, but I don't have that ability at the moment due to travel and income. Her offer to pay me will go towards my future learning (or student loan) and help me continue to pursue this, rather than drop out thinking all my images are horrible. I may not love them, but if she does then it's worthwhile to help her out. I don't want to be changing lenses awkwardly, especially with the -30 degree weather and snow we've been getting. I don't plan on going somewhere unprepared, free or otherwise. 

Forkie-I'm not sure why it won't let me quote you! Thank you for the kind words  I have a feeling this will be done outdoors, so background will likely be overexposed snow (black dog in foreground). I do have some that are similar I've liked of my own, but I don't love her expression in them. I should be able to replicate the effect, but I'm not really certain that's the ideal background either. I'm working with what I have; I can be resourceful. The point you bring up about overcharging is exactly why I wanted to ask-the shoots we did for charity were 15$ for one image, and the lowest paid professional in the area is a 200-300$ sitting fee. The professionals I would go to if I wanted images of my dog are closer to 500-1000$ for a package fee, with some prints included. I don't want to charge anywhere near that. Not even close. Not even a dream of being close. But I would like to do have more than one image at the end to give her, so I'm not sure what an appropriate middle ground is. I think the message earlier in the thread-to have it donated to the charity we volunteer for together, or to do dinner together, or something similar is what I will go with. That way, she gets to choose the amount based off what she can afford and what it's worth to her to support a friend. 

Robbins.photo - I hope you don't lose sleep over this! I really can't emphasize more that this is a friend offering. I would never have asked for money or about the topic without her insistence. I've been very lucky and there's no need for you to stress-I won't be taking any money away from you or any professionals, and I certainly am not going to let this go to my head. It's a kinda gesture on her part and I in no way think I'd be ready to offer paid work yet.


----------



## runnah (Jan 12, 2015)

First time or not I would turn down the money as most animal welfare programs aren't exactly flush with cash.

Chalk it up as a free learning experience that is helping some animals find a home.


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 12, 2015)

runnah said:


> First time or not I would turn down the money as most animal welfare programs aren't exactly flush with cash.
> 
> Chalk it up as a free learning experience that is helping some animals find a home.



It's not the rescue offering to pay-it's a friend. I've done volunteer events many times before.


----------



## robbins.photo (Jan 12, 2015)

Kwenami said:


> Robbins.photo - I hope you don't lose sleep over this! I really can't emphasize more that this is a friend offering. I would never have asked for money or about the topic without her insistence. I've been very lucky and there's no need for you to stress-I won't be taking any money away from you or any professionals, and I certainly am not going to let this go to my head. It's a kinda gesture on her part and I in no way think I'd be ready to offer paid work yet.



Well I'll do my best - lol.  No way you can take any money away from me because I'm not a professional photographer, nor do I have any desire to be.  But if you're really feeling bad about it you could always alleviate your guilt with a small donation toward the parade.. lol


----------



## imagemaker46 (Jan 12, 2015)

I'd charge a flat $100, give the client a cd of the images and keep practicing. Don't worry about what anyone else has to say. You mentioned not working, so I assume you can use the cash. A shoot like this is not going to affect anyone else, just have some fun, don't stress, hope the dog is calm.  As for being, or acting professional, the client already knows that you're not doing this for a living, so just show up on time, ready to go, spend a little time letting the dog get comfortable around you, maybe take along a few dog treats to get the dog to settle down.

Personally the only animals I work with are professional athletes, they like treats as well.


----------



## James Baranski (Jan 12, 2015)

don't forget the dog treats


----------



## snerd (Jan 12, 2015)

runnah said:


> First time or not I would turn down the money as most animal welfare programs aren't exactly flush with cash.
> 
> Chalk it up as a free learning experience that is helping some animals find a home.


That's a great way to look at it!


----------



## Kwenami (Jan 12, 2015)

imagemaker46 said:


> I'd charge a flat $100, give the client a cd of the images and keep practicing. Don't worry about what anyone else has to say. You mentioned not working, so I assume you can use the cash. A shoot like this is not going to affect anyone else, just have some fun, don't stress, hope the dog is calm.  As for being, or acting professional, the client already knows that you're not doing this for a living, so just show up on time, ready to go, spend a little time letting the dog get comfortable around you, maybe take along a few dog treats to get the dog to settle down.
> 
> Personally the only animals I work with are professional athletes, they like treats as well.



I've worked with dogs before, the dog will be the easy part  People are so much harder to request to do what you want. And best/worst case, the dog is a total goof and I can capture that, instead (those are always my favorite photos...technical details aside). Based off what I've heard, the dog isn't calm. It will mean I get to play with a puppy, AND take photos. I'm not sure why people skip that first step ever. 

I baked a ridiculous amount of treats for my own dog recently, so there's loads to go around, too  No way would I forget that! My second favorite to see the reaction to is always the harmonica....

Thanks for the kind words  I plan to have a great time, regardless of the advice I get. And thanks for an estimate/opinion on what you think a reasonable balance is


----------



## Forkie (Jan 13, 2015)

imagemaker46 said:


> I'd charge a flat $100, give the client a cd of the images and keep practicing. Don't worry about what anyone else has to say. You mentioned not working, so I assume you can use the cash. A shoot like this is not going to affect anyone else, just have some fun, don't stress, hope the dog is calm.  As for being, or acting professional, the client already knows that you're not doing this for a living, so just show up on time, ready to go, spend a little time letting the dog get comfortable around you, maybe take along a few dog treats to get the dog to settle down.
> 
> Personally the only animals I work with are professional athletes, they like treats as well.




This sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to go about it.  $100, and give her the best you can.  Manage her expectations with regards to how many shots she'll get and your experience.  During the shoot, keep showing her the images and asking if you're going in the right direction with the shots - keep her involved throughout the shoot.  And definitely ask her for some honest feedback once you've given her the final images. 

I always do this.  If I do an actor headshot session, whether free or paid I always ask them to give me honest feedback once they've received the final images, especially for them to pass on any feedback they get from casting directors, agents, directors or anyone else important in that industry that might have something to say, regardless of whether the feedback is good or bad.  I've had some of my most useful C&C that way and it has improved my shots immeasurably.


----------



## Stradawhovious (Jan 13, 2015)

[thread]

You made up your mind to take the money before posting this thread, and have come here looking for "approval" from your peers.

You aren't going to get majority approval, and aren't ready to be considered "pro" in any capacity but that won't stop you from taking the money.

[/thread]

Another thread like this pops up seemingly every day here. 

Take the money.  Enjoy the money.  Understand though that your product will speak for itself.  Your client may "just looooove" the photos to your face, then wish they had never paid you.  That word will spread. 

The client may LOOOOOOVE your photos,and show everyone. Other people  may have a different opinion, and you will have a hard time getting a paying gig from others as a result. 

Or... everyone will love your photos, you will become a photography sensation overnight and will have to beat away paying customers with a stick.

This last one is pretty doubtful.


----------



## Nevermore1 (Jan 13, 2015)

You mention the dog is a rescue, is it currently up for adoption and being fostered by the person wanting the photos?   Are the photos going to be used in an attempt to find it a home?  If the answer is yes to these then I personally would not take payment as foster parents (to animals or people) already put so much time, effort and money into caring for these animals and whatever you can provide will help the dog find a new permanent home.  If your friend still insists on payment then maybe they can either make a donation to the rescue in your name or take you out to dinner or something. 

As for what to have to take the photos (I haven't read all the posts and am far from being a pro), be sure to bring treats and a squeaky toy to get the dogs attention.  When I had photos done of my Mom's dog for her, one thing the photographer made sure to do was to rotate the dogs collar so any tags were in the back and not showing in the photo.  Also, I believe you mentioned the dog is all black, my Mom's was as well and we had her photos done professionaly twice by two different photographers who each had over 20 years experience, both had issues bringing out her features without bringing in extra lights and reflectors.  Without the extra lights/reflectors she came out looking like a black blob.

Either way, good luck with the shoot and let us know how it turns out.


----------

