# Suggestions? No lens, no money.



## Chiuy (Nov 20, 2010)

What would you do if you're a high school student with no money and couldn't afford any lenses beside the cheap basic 75-300mm, 18-55mm, and the 50mm?

I really like photography and wish to take it to the next level by using more expensive lenses to do more stuff, such as macro lenses and wide angle lenses. I'm also the best photography in my school. Only problem is, I'm just a kid and I can't get a job cause I'm taking 5 AP Classes which kills a lot of my time. (I don't sleep till 1:30am)


So, if you were in my position, what would you do? And no, my parents will not buy me the lenses. 
Is there any contests to win any lenses, camera, etc? 
I'm using a Canon XSi Rebel. 
(No, I don't want to use those cheap adapter to make my standard lenses into a 0.45x wide angle lens, they really do suck in my opinion)

Or... wait 6+ years later till I get a real job then I can start affording the lenses? haha


----------



## KmH (Nov 20, 2010)

I would open a savings account, and put the money I spend on soda pop, fast food, movies, and any other non-essential items in the bank.

While that was going on and I was accumulating $$$'s, I would be studying the used lens market. As the price of new lenses goes up, so does the price of used lenses.

You could look for distressed camea gear sales. Sometimes people don't know the real value of what they are selling and have it under-priced. When you find gear priced that way you can buy it - and flip it for a profit. Buy low-sell high. Instead of making 1 big jump to better glass, take smaller steps by incrementally upgrading your lenses.


----------



## kric2schaam626 (Nov 20, 2010)

KmH said:


> I would open a savings account, and put the money I spend on soda pop, fast food, movies, and any other non-essential items in the bank.



I agree 100%. This is how I saved for my D80 two years ago. Basically decide how much it's worth it to you and put away every penny you can; especially take away the "meaningless spending" (just temporary!) and put it toward that wonderful piece of equipment.


----------



## manaheim (Nov 20, 2010)

Get a job?


----------



## pbelarge (Nov 20, 2010)

We live in a "today" world, everyone wants it today. There are many people who go through their adult life without getting what they want. There are others who sacrifice to get what they want. And there are others who work for what they want.
But...so many see what others want and covet it. 

Simple advice - 
You say your parents won't pay
You are sixteen

Learn to sacrifice and do without until you can afford to purchase what you want. Which means you may need to wait those 6 years. You will be 22 by then. That may seem a long time to you, as you are young and may not yet realize what all of this is about. By  the time you are 22 your values will be different then they are now. There will be a day when you look back on all of this and chuckle at your impatience. It will take a life time for that to happen though.


----------



## NikonNewbie (Nov 20, 2010)

manaheim said:


> Get a job?


 
SAY WHAT???? oh that would be the obvious thing right?...
he/she is in school.........classes......doesnt sleep till 130am...what do you expect them do? Phone sex? dorm porn?
OH ...ideas for you  lol (I'm totally kidding! don't do what I said!)


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 20, 2010)

Quit school/pursue photography full time/get a job/buy lenses/etc.


----------



## Jcampbelll (Nov 20, 2010)

Sell other things that don't use anymore, ask parents if you can get some money for doing extra chores, do chores for neighbors for money, mow lawns for neighbors, lemonade stand.  There is a lot of things you can do to get money. Just if you will sacrifice any free time for it.


----------



## IgsEMT (Nov 20, 2010)

> What would you do if you're a high school student with no money and  couldn't afford any lenses beside the cheap basic 75-300mm, 18-55mm, and  the 50mm?


There's MORE to photography then 5k body, 2k gladd, 500 flash and another 3grand vs lighting gear. *Learn *with what you have now and improve your basic skill - exposure and composition. The rest...


----------



## Blake.Oney (Nov 21, 2010)

Let your parents pay for your lunch and stuff by taking it to school and eventually they will have bought it for you anyway.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 21, 2010)

Make a pin hole lens with your body cap. Now go out and be creative with it.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

I can't get a job because I spend 6+ hours every night doing homework after school.
I don't get lunch money because due to my family's income being so low, I was able to apply for the free lunch program. And sadly, I don't get allowance. 
And no, I'm not sixteen, I'm actually a senior, and the reason why I said 6+ years it's because I want to major in the biomedical engineering area with all the complexity of chemicals, math, science and computers. =)

I just like photography as a really cool hobby and I want to learn more about it. 

I guess I'll have to start saving every little penny I see and look on eBay and to see if I can get some under priced lens and resell them for some profit.

Edit: I'm not asking for a $5000 camera or a $2000 lens, I just want to experiment the different lenses, such as wide angle and macro. Or more importantly, a standard lens with a f/2.8. Then I'll be satisfy with that lens for a long time. And I'm only using a $30 flash which works just as well as a $500 flash in my opinion, but buggy.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Make a pin hole lens with your body cap. Now go out and be creative with it.



Hey, that's really not a bad idea. Thanks


----------



## Derrel (Nov 21, 2010)

Shop for lenses on the used market. NOT at the Big Five web sites, where the retail prices are as high as the market will bear, but in podunk shops all up and down the west coast. Two weeks ago, I saw a used Nikkor 200mm f/2 VR, asking price $3,500; that lens new is much,much more expensive. When something really,really "new and awesome" hits the market, many,many amateurs trade in their older lenses in order to raise cash for the next best hot new thing. When the Nikon D100 was the "hot new thing", I picked up eight or nine mint-condition Nikon lenses over about a 18 month period, at absolutely ridiculous, bargain-basement prices, bought on CONSIGNMENT sale from a walk-in shop. One key is consignment sales--the store makes money selling even below the seller's asking price, with ZERO cash outlay...

Do not try and buy from those big-name web sites...look for stores in Portland, Seattle, Kenmore, San Fran, Oakland, San Jose, and San Diego. As well as Craigslist, and your local advertiser-type newspapers like The Nickle Ads.


----------



## enzodm (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> ...
> I really like photography and wish to take it to the next level by using more expensive lenses to do more stuff, such as macro lenses and wide angle lenses.
> ...
> So, if you were in my position, what would you do?



If you are 16, your next level is not make a living from photography but learning to be a good photographer. For that, "more expensive lenses" do not help much. Your lens set is more than adequate to learn  (and much more than what I had at 24, as poor university student... Zenit + 50mm + 2x teleconverter  ) and I think is difficult you already overcome your lens capabilities, unless you take pictures since 3-4 years. 
Consider that Cartier-Bresson shot most of his pictures with one fixed lens. If you do not know who he is, one step to next level could be that of looking at the work of Masters of photography.

Anyway, although not perfect, you indeed have a wide angle (18mm) with which you can experiment; a good picture taken with your zoom will not be worst than a bad picture taken with a more expensive lens. By the way, I bet most of people here does not have anything shorter. 
Regarding macro, cheapest way is to reverse the lens or, better, use macro rings, just some dollar if bought in China (with some limitation, e.g. no transmission of data, but you may afford some old-style shooting technique). Quality is more than using optical addons, although also optical add-ons let you learn the basics. 

This is while you save in usual student style, cutting from other costs.

EDIT: I see you are not 16. What I wrote remains valid, except the note on time spent in photography, of course. What I can add is that if you just want to experiment, a cheap way is also to buy old manual prime lenses and an adapter. A 135/2.8, a 200/3.5, a 28/2.8 with M42 mount can be bought for few dollars, although quality is not always good but sufficient to experiment with fast lenses (manual focus, manual diaphragm...).


----------



## LightSpeed (Nov 21, 2010)

What lens is it, that you want?


----------



## kric2schaam626 (Nov 21, 2010)

Start out small! Lenses and expensive camera bodies are necessary when you are just beginning. Start simple, because you will have to learn your camera and then practice your composition and exposure levels.


----------



## g-fi (Nov 21, 2010)

Don't underestimate the 50mm, just because it's cheap doesn't mean that it isn't a versatile lens. Frankly, if you don't have the money, it's one of the bigger "bang for your buck" lenses. Get a 50mm and shoot, shoot, shoot. And keep shooting. Great photography is NOT ABOUT THE GEAR. It's about what you do with the gear you have. Don't overlook pawn shops either, sometimes you can find great deals on lenses and you have the added advantage of being able to examine the gear before you buy. If your focus isn't primarily on photography right now, then work with what you have (or can afford) and make the most out of it. It's better to be a great, thoughtful photographer with a minimum set-up than a sloppy photographer with a bunch of gear.


----------



## RalphP13 (Nov 21, 2010)

You could practice your macro photography by reverse mounting the 50 mm lens you already have. 

You could also practice other aspects of photography which don't require a lot of cash outlay like panoramic imaging (there are free stitching programs), and HDR imaging (also free/trial programs available). 

Practicing different postprocessing techniques may also help your images. You could spend years just practicing and advancing postprocessing techniques.

Just have fun.


Thanks, Ralph


----------



## usayit (Nov 21, 2010)

pbelarge said:


> We live in a "today" world, everyone wants it today. There are many people who go through their adult life without getting what they want. There are others who sacrifice to get what they want. And there are others who work for what they want.
> But...so many see what others want and covet it.
> 
> Simple advice -
> ...




^^^ RIGHT THERE ^^^

Its the problem these days... (trying not to get on soap box)

OP isn't without something>>   "I'm using a Canon XSi Rebel. "     Be creative and resourceful.   


btw...


5 AP classes.. That's great!!  but don't kid yourself its an investment in your future and not for right now.   Another kid struggling in school in the same situation wouldn't get any different of an answer.


----------



## ababysean (Nov 21, 2010)

The 50mm hardly ever comes off my camera.  So if you have a 50mm that autofocus, I would say you are good to go.  If you are doing outdoor photography or portraits I'd worry more about a reflector, if you want to shoot weddings or anything indoors/low light, you can rent lens until you can save up to buy it.


----------



## EddieDerbyshire (Nov 21, 2010)

Buy a film lens, and buy a m42 adapter on ebay! you can get some really good stuff out of that! search it! And also search up sigma 18 50  its been reduced right now


----------



## manaheim (Nov 21, 2010)

You don't need a 2.8 lens to learn photography.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks guys for the suggestion. I know that a good photographer doesn't need those fancy lens. But I've been using my canon xsi with the 18-55mm for the past 4 years! It gets boring, even though 18mm is wide, I take a lot of panoramic pictures and landscapes. I borrowed a 10mm lens before and it was pretty amazing cause I was able to capture more details. 
I also rented a 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM for one week on a online website for $70 and after using for a week, the pictures I took was incredibly sharp and perfect compared to my 18-55mm. 
And yes, I know the reverse lens and been using it for over a year now. But the reverse lens, I got some dusts in my lens so it's really not the best so I prefer a actual lens. Never tried an actual macro lens though. I also tries some cheap adapters macro tube, it's alright, not the best. 

And also, how will I ever advance to the next level if I am unable to experiment with different lenses? It's like technology, if you don't ever advance, you will never reach the future. A slow comp vs a fast speedy computer that can do a lot more stuff


----------



## 12sndsgood (Nov 21, 2010)

learning to work around the issues of your lens will make you more a better phographer then just going and buying new gear. im sure any (quality)pro photographer could take ,y camera and kit lenes and take better photos then i could.you can keep working on the basics and everything else to perfect things before you go out and buy new gear. youlle learn more and develop better by using what you have instead of just going out and buying new gear and assuming its going to make you a better photographer. most people in high school don't have the setup you allready have.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 21, 2010)

OP needs to post up some work for critique.


----------



## orb9220 (Nov 21, 2010)

Yep craigslist is where I buy and everything I have is used. Picked up the kit like 55-200vr for $120 and does a stellar job for what it is. Don't know if canon version on same footing? I would guess probably is. Also don't insist on f2.8 zooms as their are many older non-AF primo glass out their on the cheap. For wide angle. Simple kit at 18 and take 2-5 shots of landscape and stitch together with pano software. Same seen some great wide angle shots with the 50mm shot vertical for 5-8 frames then stitched together. But who would think shooting vertical landscapes with the 50mm? Someone did and gets great results.

And yep Better & Faster glass is preferred. But I still can get outstanding images with the cheapy kit lenses or old manual focus lenses on the cheap. Don't waste time lusting for the attainable and more time on adjusting your expectations and need to something you can use and create with.

Good Luck and like mentioned find stuff to sell off,have a yard sale. And get your parents "I'll clean out that garage fer you and sell for you on a commission basis". Or have them donate stuff they no longer need or use. Us americans are the worst when it comes to hording & buying and not using perfectly good stuff.
.
.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

I'll post some of my works when I get home. 
And seriously, if the 18-55mm lens was that amazing, then i should be seeing every pro photographer with that lens, instead I see them with like the 70-200mm f/2.8. Different lenses for different purposes. 18-55 is a great lens, but if I was on the football field, it's completely useless to me. I can't take those actions shots and my camera only has 12megapixels. And the lighting is horrible compared to the 70-200mm f/2.8.

Edit: and yes I know a good photographer doesn't need those lens, but once again, different lens serve different purposes for creativity. If you were in the wild and wants to take a picture of a lion up close, would you want to use you 18-55mm and go super close to the lion or with a telephoto lens and stay near a safe distance?


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> I'll post some of my works when I get home.
> And seriously, if the 18-55mm lens was that amazing, then i should be seeing every pro photographer with that lens, instead I see them with like the 70-200mm f/2.8. Different lenses for different purposes. 18-55 is a great lens, but if I was on the football field, it's completely useless to me. I can't take those actions shots and my camera only has 12megapixels. And the lighting is horrible compared to the 70-200mm f/2.8.
> 
> Edit: and yes I know a good photographer doesn't need those lens, but once again, different lens serve different purposes for creativity. If you were in the wild and wants to take a picture of a lion up close, would you want to use you 18-55mm and go super close to the lion or with a telephoto lens and stay near a safe distance?



If I were in a life or death situation with a Lion, I don't think I'd be fiddling around with lenses and trying to get closer to it to take a photo. I'd be getting the **** out of there.


----------



## g-fi (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> And seriously, if the 18-55mm lens was that amazing, then i should be seeing every pro photographer with that lens, instead I see them with like the 70-200mm f/2.8...
> 
> . I can't take those actions shots and *my camera only has 12megapixels*.




Go to flikr and search for pictures tagged "kit lens" and then come back and tell us that you can't do amazing photography with a kit lens. It isn't about what professional photographers have, it's about what YOU do with what YOU have. 

Frankly, your attitude is what limits you. You only have 12 megapixels? Well Good Lord! How can you take ANY pictures AT ALL?! You're really limping by, aren't you. :er:

You don't seem to want to hear that better gear will not make you a better photographer. Whatever. I'm guessing with such a heavy workload that you're up until 1:30am every night doing school work, shooting football games, or lions in the wild, or whatever, doesn't happen often enough that you really need to worry about how you're going to afford that super fast lens you think is going to take you to the next level.


----------



## redtippmann (Nov 21, 2010)

I got a job this summer and that helped a lot (weired right?)! Once I saved up enough cash I purchased a nice little setup. I then quit right after the school year started and I now have a small little operation of my own. I do a lot of business through craigslist and facebook. Now I am on my way to a nice new D7000 (bye bye little D50)...... And doesn't it suck being the only photographer at school! 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and you have more megapixels than all my cameras combined.... So that aspect of cameras doesn't matter unless your printing more than 30inch photos.


----------



## misstwinklytoes (Nov 21, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> OP needs to post up some work for critique.


+1

That's a huge step in learning and growing!


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

While your equipment is going to place different demands on you, I don't always buy the idea that a $7000 is going to make your images $7000 worth of better than they are unless you're shooting in the most demanding of situations almost all the time. 
Our gear is nearly the same, I have a T1i, 18-55 EF-s, 55-250 EF-s, and a Sigma 10-22. I don't feel my gear is holding me back at all, and I spend a lot of time shooting at night... 

Shoot and shoot lots. That's the ticket. And stay in school, get your degree. Even a serious hobby is still a hobby.


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Nov 21, 2010)

You have as many lenses as I do and I shoot for a living. I used to shoot weddings with one (1) lens and a doubler. Doublers are cheap.


I've said it a number of times and probably will keep on saying it till I die: you need to be as creative with your gear as you are with your images.

Will your camera work with older MF lenses? Some older lenses are selling dirt cheap just because they don't auto focus but are actually very good lenses.

Now, this is just a thought because I sure don't know your exact situation, but all 3 of my kids took all AP classes they could but they still had time for friends and music. So maybe you need to manage your time better and then you can make a little money by shooting your fellow students for money...


----------



## TiCoyote (Nov 21, 2010)

I would accept the fact that the most important piece of equipment is _behind _the viewfinder, accept the fact that many amazing photographs have been taken with lenses of a lower quality than yours, and learn as much as you can about composition.


----------



## usayit (Nov 21, 2010)

Still sounds like the OP is simply making up justifications.  

Of course there are professionals that shoot with the absolute best...   What you don't see is that it is a business to make money and there even more professionals shooting with lesser equipment.   Professionals and businesses wouldn't exist for very long if they spent money on expensive equipment it doesn't have revenue to support...   It's gotta make financial sense whether personal or professional.

Also... be honest with yourself,  needs vs wants.    If you want it badly enough, time to think of ways to get the funds to buy it.. sell, jobs, etc.      

Be creative and resourceful.... two very key talents that will come in handy for any professional.   Don't forget....  there are generations of great photographers that made due with much much less.....   only 12 pixels?   Sports magazines have published photos taken with cameras lessnthan half the data.

EOS system has been around for a long time.... look at used.   Go even farther back and you can find manuals for even less.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

I didn't come on this forum to make "enemies". YES I KNOW THAT you do not need fancy expensive lenses to take awesome pictures. Once again, DIFFERENT LENSES serve DIFFERENT PURPOSES. If the kit lenses was that amazing, then canon wouldn't even need to produce any more lenses! 12 megapixel isn't a lot compared to 24 megapixels camera where they have the ability to crop their picture without reducing the quality. 

I have no idea how this topic even shifted to the other direction. Is it cause I'm a high school kid and think I know nothing about photography? All I wanted was suggestion on how to get other type of lenses in my position, NOT telling me that a good photographer only needs the 18-55mm. 

Please do correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: Yes I need a lot of megapixels it's because I crop pictures and make super enlargement pictures for our school.


----------



## Overread (Nov 21, 2010)

People have given the suggestions, but it seems that your time plate is already full so you've not the time to commit to earning and to working on your schooling. So it really is a case of just having to ferret away any bit of money you can and wait whilst saving. There really isn't any other way since getting money requires a job and that requires time that you don't have. 

Just keep working on your school and photography and wait it out - we really can't advise any more than that. 

Now one the school front if you are shooting for your school consider the context - are you effectively being the school photographer? If so consider encouraging the school to invest in their own setup to equip their current (you) and future student school photographer with. That might let you get the school to let you are more pro gear without you  having to invest. OF course it also means that you won't own the gear, but you'll still be able to use it. 
You might also encourage them to let you rent key bits of gear for important events - a cheaper option short term. However considering your own financial position I'd say that unless you were earning off your prints you'd not be best served with short term renting.


Ps for macro  Raynox DCR 250 close up lens  Not too expensive and very good quality.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

What we're saying is that you're stuff is as good as probably 80% of the people out there shooting that arent pros.  That the better you can manage what you've got the more difference that better camera or lens is going to make.

If the goal is more and better, there is no real shortcut.  Get a job and save up.  But more mega-pixles is a poor substitute to learning to shoot full frame.  A $9000 lens is a poor substitute to learning how to shoot in harsh light and manage flair.  Few people use their gear to it's full potental... including me.  (Hell, especially me)  People have shot award winning stuff with what you've got and less...

Better gear is great, I'd love a bag full of white lenses...  But my budget is basic.


----------



## Jcampbelll (Nov 21, 2010)

I think you have gotten plenty of advice. :thumbup:


> I would open a savings account, and put the money I spend on soda pop, fast food, movies, and any other non-essential items in the bank. As the price of new lenses goes up, so does the price of used lenses.Instead of making 1 big jump to better glass, take smaller steps by incrementally upgrading your lenses.





> Basically decide how much it's worth it to you and put away every penny you can; especially take away the "meaningless spending" (just temporary!) and put it toward that wonderful piece of equipment.





> Learn to sacrifice and do without until you can afford to purchase what you want.





> Ask parents if you can get some money for doing extra chores, do chores for neighbors for money, mow lawns for neighbors. There is a lot of things you can do to get money. Just if you will sacrifice any free time for it.


----------



## keethjon (Nov 21, 2010)

Try to take the best pictures possible with the equipment you have. You already have more than the average person. Try to take better pictures than others with equipment similar to yours or better than yours. Taking todays technology into account, you might have better equipment than the famous photographer Ansel Adams. (I think he did pretty good for himself). Also, being forced to take pictures with what you have for now, might make it easier for you once you do get that advanced equipment.
Good Luck

Keith
Easy Basic Photography


----------



## NikonNewbie (Nov 21, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> Chiuy said:
> 
> 
> > I'll post some of my works when I get home.
> ...


 
This is 100% true...and I speak from experience...but it was a nasty little fox not a lion.


----------



## usayit (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> I have no idea how this topic even shifted to the other direction. Is it cause I'm a high school kid and think I know nothing about photography? All I wanted was suggestion on how to get other type of lenses in my position,



If you were a down on luck 50 year old working two low paying jobs, you would get the same response.  There are no other options except to work with what you have, increase income, or win the lottery.


----------



## dylanstraub (Nov 21, 2010)

RE: Chiuy's comment "I guess I'll have to start saving every little penny I see and look on eBay and to see if I can get some under priced lens and resell them for some profit."

It's all crap. Unless you know people who like crap then don't waste your money. Look for used lenses at Keh.com Adorama or B&H or your local store. You have a better chance getting something decent and not get taken. This is from personal experience but by all means feel free to waste your money if you want. Every last piece of equipment I own in used but most of it is gently ued.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> 18-55 is a great lens, but if I was on the football field, it's completely useless to me. I can't take those actions shots and my camera only has 12megapixels. And the lighting is horrible compared to the 70-200mm f/2.8.
> 
> Edit: and yes I know a good photographer doesn't need those lens, but once again, different lens serve different purposes for creativity. If you were in the wild and wants to take a picture of a lion up close, would you want to use you 18-55mm and go super close to the lion or with a telephoto lens and stay near a safe distance?


 
Sorry man...  I bought my first camera in high school.  A Minolta SRT 101 with a 50mm f1.8 lens.  I shot for both the school newspaper and the yearbook, including the tennis team, the golf team, basketball games and football.  I did portraits, candids, and whatever I was called to do.  All with that one camera and lens.  It meant getting creative and getting in close.  Running up and down the side lines.

There was no auto focus and the exposure had to be set manually also.  And I didn't have the luxury of choosing my ISO from shot to shot.  I shot Tri-X film, ISO 400...   My cheapie flash didn't adjust for exposure, I had to do that manually too...


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

> Sorry man...  I bought my first camera in high school.  A Minolta SRT 101 with a 50mm f1.8 lens.  I shot for both the school newspaper and the yearbook, including the tennis team, the golf team, basketball games and football.  I did portraits, candids, and whatever I was called to do.  All with that one camera and lens.  It meant getting creative and getting in close.  Running up and down the side lines.
> 
> There was no auto focus and the exposure had to be set manually also.  And I didn't have the luxury of choosing my ISO from shot to shot.  I shot Tri-X film, ISO 400...   My cheapie flash didn't adjust for exposure, I had to do that manually too...



Technology is rapidly changing. You cannot compare this to the past. It's the same thing as cellphone. When I got my first cellphone, it was black and white and now these days, kids are having iPhone touch screen as their first phone.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Sorry man... I bought my first camera in high school. A Minolta SRT 101 with a 50mm f1.8 lens. I shot for both the school newspaper and the yearbook, including the tennis team, the golf team, basketball games and football. I did portraits, candids, and whatever I was called to do. All with that one camera and lens. It meant getting creative and getting in close. Running up and down the side lines.
> 
> There was no auto focus and the exposure had to be set manually also. And I didn't have the luxury of choosing my ISO from shot to shot. I shot Tri-X film, ISO 400... My cheapie flash didn't adjust for exposure, I had to do that manually too...


 
Technology is rapidly changing. You cannot compare this to the past. It's the same thing as cellphone. When I got my first cellphone, it was black and white and now these days, kids are having iPhone touch screen as their first phone.[/QUOTE]

Of course I can... Football is football, then and now. It's not any harder to shoot now than it was then. The dynamics have not changed at all. The gear you have now is light years more advanced than anything I could have imagined. You have advantages in shooting that I could only have dreamed of back then.

But in spite of it, I got good shots. I found a way. By the time I graduated I had several awards for my photography. I was less concerned with what I couldn't do and more concerned with what I could do. It wasn't until my 2nd year of college that I started really upgrading my stuff and even then it was far short of highend glass.

There's nothing out there I couldn't shoot with that old camera and lens just as well as ever.  All that technology may make things easier, but none of it makes it BETTER.


----------



## manaheim (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Thanks guys for the suggestion. I know that a good photographer doesn't need those fancy lens. But I've been using my canon xsi with the 18-55mm for the past 4 years! It gets boring, even though 18mm is wide, I take a lot of panoramic pictures and landscapes. I borrowed a 10mm lens before and it was pretty amazing cause I was able to capture more details.
> I also rented a 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM for one week on a online website for $70 and after using for a week, the pictures I took was incredibly sharp and perfect compared to my 18-55mm.
> And yes, I know the reverse lens and been using it for over a year now. But the reverse lens, I got some dusts in my lens so it's really not the best so I prefer a actual lens. Never tried an actual macro lens though. I also tries some cheap adapters macro tube, it's alright, not the best.
> 
> And also, how will I ever advance to the next level if I am unable to experiment with different lenses? It's like technology, if you don't ever advance, you will never reach the future. A slow comp vs a fast speedy computer that can do a lot more stuff


 
Ugh.  Dude.  Seriously.

Advancing in photography has NOTHING to do with technology (at least within reason).  Obviously a pinhole camera is going to be pretty limiting, but your Canon and kit lens kicks the crap out of technology that was used decades ago and the famous photographers of old could out-shoot you (and me) any day of the week.

Also, check out this pic...







Pretty decent, huh?

Taken with an absolute piece of crap sub-$100 lens.  Not even a good quality cheap lens like a 50mm 1.8.  No this is a 28-100 3.5/5.6 that I'm amazed doesn't fall apart in my hands most times when I use it.

And some years ago I took another picture of that VERY scene with the SAME lens and it was HORRIBLE.  The key difference?  3 years of experience and practice... with crap lenses.

Advanced equipment does not make you better.  Advanced equipment allows you to go further more easily.  If you want to REALLY learn photography on a limited budget, learn how to work around the limitations of the gear you have now.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

You cannot compared football to technology because they are separated categories. AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, different lenses serve different purposes. I'm not getting a lens to help me shoot better picture but to help me in different situations. You can give a very expensive camera gear to a newbie and he/she will probably take crappy picture and a professional can shoot better with a standard camera. Yes, that part I agree. The reason why I want a new lens is to experiment and help me in different situations. 
Please do tell me how you are able to take a picture of macro picture of an ant if you only have a 75-300mm lens?


----------



## manaheim (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> You cannot compared football to technology because they are separated categories. AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, different lenses serve different purposes. I'm not getting a lens to help me shoot better picture but to help me in different situations. You can give a very expensive camera gear to a newbie and he/she will probably take crappy picture and a professional can shoot better with a standard camera. Yes, that part I agree. The reason why I want a new lens is to experiment and help me in different situations.
> Please do tell me how you are able to take a picture of macro picture of an ant if you only have a 75-300mm lens?


 
Oh, I dunno... use google?

Taking Macro Photography Without a Macro Lens!

You also don't have to actually buy anything.  Buddy of mine does it with tape. *shrug*


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> You cannot compared football to technology because they are separated categories. AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, different lenses serve different purposes. I'm not getting a lens to help me shoot better picture but to help me in different situations. You can give a very expensive camera gear to a newbie and he/she will probably take crappy picture and a professional can shoot better with a standard camera. Yes, that part I agree. The reason why I want a new lens is to experiment and help me in different situations.
> Please do tell me how you are able to take a picture of macro picture of an ant if you only have a 75-300mm lens?


 
I didn't compare football to technology.  

I compared shooting football then with a bottom of the line manual film camera with a single 50mm f1.8 lens to you shooting football now with an autofocus, autoexposure camera and lenses ranging from 18mm to 300mm.

And you're complaining...  

True macro, probably not.  But why let that stop you from shooting the ant?  And that's the difference.  I'd have wasted a whole roll of film a gallion of chemicals and a box of paper trying to get that shot if I wanted it.  Sometimes it worked, sometime it didn't.  Photography, as a hobby, was expensive back then.  Failure cost money.  

The limitations of my gear forced me to think through what I was shooting in ways I probably wouldn't have otherwise.  I learned to compose full frame as 400 ASA film is very unforgiving when you try to crop it or enlarge it.  And I had no choice, I had to be ready to shoot in mid-day and midnight on the same roll of film.  ISO 400 was just flexible enough to get by in both situations.

I'm taking a photograph class...  One of our assignments was to shoot someing in macro.  I mentioned my stuff, I have no macro lens.  I got the shot anyway.  I used my 55-250.  Is it true macro?  No.  But I understood what the lens could do and took advantage of it.

If you keep thinking you need "X" lens to shoot a certain situation, then you're always gonna be limited in what you shoot and how you see it.  Learn to make the lens fit the situation and you broaden how you shoot.


----------



## Overread (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Please do tell me how you are able to take a picture of macro picture of an ant if you only have a 75-300mm lens?



Raynox DCR 250  As mentioned before 

EDIT  - or reversing ring - mount your 50mm onto your 70-300mm giving you up to 6:1 magnification

Though if the 75-300mm is all you have then its all you have and you can't take aportrait of an ant with that. You'd  have to either forgo the shot or adapt your composition to a wider angle of view.

Also no one is arguing against specific gear for specific events = but you still have 0 budget so its a moot argument since you can't significantly expand upon your own current setup/ Saying get a  70-200mm f2.8 and a 300mm f2.8 are pointless because they are beyond your budget


----------



## usayit (Nov 21, 2010)

1 take your current gear
2 practice, improve, learn... become the best photographer in your area
3 start selling photographs
4 fund your gear

?


btw .... Chiuy already knew about the reversal lens macro technique..... he posted to a thread on such topic.  why he brought it up?  no idea


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 21, 2010)

Overread said:


> Also no one is arguing against specific gear for specific events = but you still have 0 budget so its a moot argument since you can't significantly expand upon your own current setup/ Saying get a 70-200mm f2.8 and a 300mm f2.8 are pointless because they are beyond your budget


 
Exactly...   If I had an answer that would make you happy, I wouldn't be shooting with a handful of entry level lenses either.

But like you, I can't afford better, so I push what I have as hard as I can.  :thumbup:


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 21, 2010)

Before things gets intense, I'm ending this topic. Thank you to everyone who gave me a suggestion. And for the last time, yes I know having an expensive lens does not make you a better photographer. I know how to use my 18-55 in most situation but it's a pain when you want extra zoom though. I know how to use my 18-55 in reverse lens, I know how to make a gigapixel photo, I know how to take a 360 degree picture, I know how to create a HDR photo, I know all of my functions on my camera, etc and know how to take a night picture and know how to use my cheap $30 external flash.


----------



## Overread (Nov 21, 2010)

Knowing how to use the gear technically for a shot is one thing - most of us learn and get close to mastering this.

Knowing how to use it creatively for a great photo is quite another -and most of us spend decades chasing it   - heck I know I'm only just starting this aspect!


----------



## Mbnmac (Nov 21, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Before things gets intense, I'm ending this topic. Thank you to everyone who gave me a suggestion. And for the last time, yes I know having an expensive lens does not make you a better photographer. I know how to use my 18-55 in most situation but it's a pain when you want extra zoom though. I know how to use my 18-55 in reverse lens, I know how to make a gigapixel photo, I know how to take a 360 degree picture, I know how to create a HDR photo, I know all of my functions on my camera, etc and know how to take a night picture and know how to use my cheap $30 external flash.



so where are these photos?

You've not posted a single one for C&C, yet you say you want to improve

Get out of the forums, get outside and take photos


----------



## manaheim (Nov 21, 2010)

Can you just end a topic like that?

Cool!


----------



## enzodm (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Before things gets intense, I'm ending this topic. Thank you to everyone who gave me a suggestion. And for the last time, yes I know having an expensive lens does not make you a better photographer. I know how to use my 18-55 in most situation but it's a pain when you want extra zoom though. I know how to use my 18-55 in reverse lens, I know how to make a gigapixel photo, I know how to take a 360 degree picture, I know how to create a HDR photo, I know all of my functions on my camera, etc and know how to take a night picture and know how to use my cheap $30 external flash.



Something is missing from the list: are you able to take good pictures? I did not found samples among your previous messages, so I cannot respond by myself.


----------



## 12sndsgood (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Before things gets intense, I'm ending this topic. Thank you to everyone who gave me a suggestion. And for the last time, yes I know having an expensive lens does not make you a better photographer. I know how to use my 18-55 in most situation but it's a pain when you want extra zoom though. I know how to use my 18-55 in reverse lens, I know how to make a gigapixel photo, I know how to take a 360 degree picture, I know how to create a HDR photo, I know all of my functions on my camera, etc and know how to take a night picture and know how to use my cheap $30 external flash.


 


well sence it sounds like you obviously know everythign there is to know about taking perfect pictures then why do you need the site? the site isn't going to give you money for the lens. they have allready told you what you should do. but its apparent that your high school education has taught you everthing there is to know. 

hell i want a ferrari because it will get me to work a hell of a lot faster, but without the money i wont have one. i dont whine to people on the internet who try to make me realise i dont NEED to have one.


----------



## Infidel (Nov 22, 2010)

[SARCASM]My situation is a little different than the OP's. I'm double the OP's age, my wife and I are employed, and I shoot with a D40 and a kit lens. I want a D700 and F/2.8 glass covering the 12mm to 200mm range, as well as some faster primes. I may still have a lot to learn about how to be a better photographer (hell, who says I even _want_ to get better?), but it doesn't matter...no justification, no apologies; I just want the fancy gear. In fact, to a certain extent, I just want it because it's expensive, but I'm willing to play along and say that build quality, weather sealing and ISO performance (and **** like that) is important to me. It's not really that important though, because I tend to spend more time reading posts on this website than taking pictures. Nevertheless, it feels good to fiddle with the camera while sitting on the sofa, watching tv (taking dumb pictures of the ceiling fan, etc). It's just that this would be soooo much more satisfying if it were with $10k worth of gear, not $400.

Has anyone else been in this situation? Any pointers or advice? Thanks in advance.[/SARCASM]

Sarcasm tags shouldn't be necessary, but I put them to avoid serious responses, along the lines of "You need to get out more" or "Step away from the computer" or "Just get out and shoot, man".


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

Leica the most expensive lens in the world | Leica News & Rumors

Get this lens and stop being such a ****ing noob. This is all you need to do sports photography, duh. You also may need a forklift, but you can rent one of those.


----------



## Infidel (Nov 22, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> Leica the most expensive lens in the world | Leica News & Rumors
> 
> Get this lens and stop being such a ****ing noob. This is all you need to do sports photography, duh. You also may need a forklift, but you can rent one of those.



Will it auto focus on my D40?


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

Infidel said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > Leica the most expensive lens in the world | Leica News & Rumors
> ...



It will autofocus on your optic nerve. It's that ****ing intense.


----------



## Infidel (Nov 22, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> It will autofocus on your optic nerve. It's that ****ing intense.



Do I need a special adapter or something?


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

Infidel said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > It will autofocus on your optic nerve. It's that ****ing intense.
> ...



No, it interfaces with your eye like some Avatar ****.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Please do feel free to comment, but you're all probably going to find all the negative things about it, since you all hate me now.

Canon XSi, 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 @18mm, approx 30 shots to take 360 degrees on a tripod. Flash: Off, ISO: 1600? Or 800, forgot. 

Used only Photoshop CS2 to crop and stitch the images together.
Did not do any editing at all beside crop and stitch. 

Info on the picture: Our Junior Prom dance. Theme was Circus. Color: Red, White and Orange. This was in our gym. 
60 leadership kids and over 1000 hours of work and planning (6 months). Took us 24 hours to set it up and 12 hours to clean it all up.
Cost: $5000
There was no professional work involve, it was just us 60 leadership kids and 5 parents volunteering. 

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/374/dvhsjuniorprom360bylchi.jpg


----------



## den9 (Nov 22, 2010)

i read this thread, and honestly all it seems like you want to do is argue with yourself.

you have no money, there for you wont get a lens.

yes L lenses are nice.

i started at the age of 17 with a manual point and shoot and a 5 dollar tripod, i learned, read countless books experiemented then moved on to a dslr with 5 megapixels, and a 50 dollar lens, *saved up and bought a kit lens* and used that for a while. now that i have a job i can afford 1000 dollar lenses.

now im using a film camera and currently saving for a full frame digital camera, but you dont hear me bitching.

in all honesty, you sound like a little ***** who doesnt take a nice camera and decent lens for granted, it seems like you just want to ***** and moan until someone donates a lens to you for free.

there is nothing free, you want a good future? suffer now with school then you can afford better stuff when you are 24. shovel snow this winter, find a summer job making 200 bucks a week. or you can just ***** and moan and disagree with everyone. i know what option might get you a new lens. find a crap job on the weekends, even if its just one day for 8 hours, by the end of the winter you will have a nice macro lens for the spring.


----------



## den9 (Nov 22, 2010)

Flickr: Chiuy's Photostream

your photos seem pretty fine, i dont see what the problem is, if anything id say you should invest in a flash for outdoor portraits.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Now... when did I ever said that I wanted someone to donate a lens to me? Stop making those craps up. If I could get a job right now, I would. 
Even on the weekend I spend most of my time studying. Taking classes related to Biomedical Engineering is kind of tough you know. 
And if you're wondering why I'm on this forum and not studying it's cause I'm on an one week break off from school. 
Right now, I'm using a cheap $30 flash, $20 50" tripod, and a Canon XSi that was used for $400 with the standard kit lenses. That's pretty cheap back then cause I got lucky. 

I met some professional photographers in my area, they said that my works were pretty fantastic. I also do a lot of experiments on photography and sometime they will ask me for some tips on how I take those pictures with the lenses I have. Those photographers are friendly, I don't know what's wrong with this forum.

In another 8 years though, I can probably afford anything I want.


----------



## memento (Nov 22, 2010)

OT - maybe you could squeeze an English class in between your Biomedical Engineering classes?


----------



## manaheim (Nov 22, 2010)

Sheesh.  I suppose I'm in no position to criticize since I was pretty sarcastic,  but it seems calling people names and such is taking this someplace it doesn't need to go.

To OP... I do think it's basically simple economics.  You need to budget your time and your money.  If you can't free up either, then you're going to have to stick with what you have.  I think people here are railing against you, because I really don't think you should need us to tell you that and we're all fairly baffled.

That's pretty much it.


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

manaheim said:


> Sheesh.  I suppose I'm in no position to criticize since I was pretty sarcastic,  but it seems calling people names and such is taking this someplace it doesn't need to go.
> 
> To OP... I do think it's basically simple economics.  You need to budget your time and your money.  If you can't free up either, then you're going to have to stick with what you have.  I think people here are railing against you, because I really don't think you should need us to tell you that and we're all fairly baffled.
> 
> That's pretty much it.


:thumbup:


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Please do feel free to comment, but you're all probably going to find all the negative things about it, since you all hate me now.
> 
> Canon XSi, 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 @18mm, approx 30 shots to take 360 degrees on a tripod. Flash: Off, ISO: 1600? Or 800, forgot.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not hating ya, I'm just trying to get you to see you are far better off than most people in high school and much better off than a good many people on this forum.  Looking at your stuff you have a good deal of potental, but room for some improvement.

The push back you're getting is because people keep saying "I started off worse off than you and made it work," and you sound like, "I'm good enough I don't need to pay my dues."  Maybe not what you intend, but it's there...

Like everyone keeps saying, there is no magic key to the white lens.  You just gotta work for it.  But I'd focus on school, the field you plan to major in is highly competative these days and academicly demanding.  Plan on having a 4.0 to get into a program and plan on loosing it the first semester you're in.


----------



## tommypalloj (Nov 22, 2010)

When I was in High School I was in all AP classes and taking part time classes at the local community college (for free). And I saved up $9500 for my car, and plenty of other goodies including my XTi. I never got a penny from my parents for wants, but they covered all of the needs as in food, school supplies, and clothes once a year.

I was in your situation and I had time to get a job over the weekend. I was paid minimum wage for 4 hours a day and paid for my car in full and everything else I bought. It will never happen in your mindset that "I need a lens, but have no money". You do not need a lens, or even a DSLR for that matter. You ended up saving $400 for your camera so do the same for the other things you want. Save up your pennies and sell the stuff you consider "crap" on a local forum. 

I made my money by a 8 hours a week job, packing my own lunch and keeping my $2 a week lunch money (I was on the discounted program because of my parent's income), and buying car parts and selling them on different forums for close to double the money. Now that I am at UCF, I do the same thing without having a job now, and have a rising income while paying for my own apartment, school, food, and everything in-between.

Pretty much, take all of the suggestions given to you and apply them to your situation. Or don't ask for help at all.


----------



## Infidel (Nov 22, 2010)

o hey tyler said:


> Infidel said:
> 
> 
> > o hey tyler said:
> ...



Thanks for your help. I see that this lens sells for a little over $2,000,000. I should have mentioned that I don't have $2,000,000, nor do I expect to have $2,000,000 in the near future. I suppose I could quit my current job and become a professional athlete, but I'm not very good at sports, so that's kind of a non-starter. You see, my situation is like this: I want this lens, but I can't afford it. What should I do?


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

Infidel said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > Infidel said:
> ...



I'd make a post about it on The Photo Forum and try to evoke pity for yourself from fellow board members. Seems to be the best course of action.

Good luck! :thumbup:


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Those photographers are friendly, I don't know what's wrong with this forum.


 
Someday, you will become wise to the ways of the world.

Ahh, sweet, sweet, naïveté.



I looked at your photostream. Would you like an honest opinion, a nice pat on the head, or encouraging words?

Two of the options would land me in the friendly photographer pile.


----------



## Sachphotography (Nov 22, 2010)

Derrel said:


> Shop for lenses on the used market. NOT at the Big Five web sites, where the retail prices are as high as the market will bear, but in podunk shops all up and down the west coast. Two weeks ago, I saw a used Nikkor 200mm f/2 VR, asking price $3,500; that lens new is much,much more expensive. When something really,really "new and awesome" hits the market, many,many amateurs trade in their older lenses in order to raise cash for the next best hot new thing. When the Nikon D100 was the "hot new thing", I picked up eight or nine mint-condition Nikon lenses over about a 18 month period, at absolutely ridiculous, bargain-basement prices, bought on CONSIGNMENT sale from a walk-in shop. One key is consignment sales--the store makes money selling even below the seller's asking price, with ZERO cash outlay...
> 
> Do not try and buy from those big-name web sites...look for stores in Portland, Seattle, Kenmore, San Fran, Oakland, San Jose, and San Diego. As well as Craigslist, and your local advertiser-type newspapers like The Nickle Ads.





Great points. I buy and sell all the time. Best deal I did was finding a canon 50mm f/1.2 for $75. Sodl for 400 on ebay 3 days later. I actually just bought a 200mm f/2 and played with it for a little while and sold it. I got it for 2850 and sold it for 3800. IT was not bad but was def a larger investment but it came out good. Flee markets and garage sales are a good place to buy from as many people want to get rid of things. I ran into a guy selling his mother in laws stuff and got a free 85mm 1.8 afd/ slik tripod and a couple other things. He had a lot of about 2000+ worth of gear on craigslist for 450. I helped him get around 1500 minus the free items he gave me. The only downside is you have to have money to make money like that.... Start small though and you can grow it. Most of my gear is paid for with money earned like this.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

memento said:


> OT - maybe you could squeeze an English class in between your Biomedical Engineering classes?





tommypalloj said:


> When I was in High School I was in all AP classes and taking part time classes at the local community college (for free). And I saved up $9500 for my car, and plenty of other goodies including my XTi. I never got a penny from my parents for wants, but they covered all of the needs as in food, school supplies, and clothes once a year.
> 
> I was in your situation and I had time to get a job over the weekend. I was paid minimum wage for 4 hours a day and paid for my car in full and everything else I bought. It will never happen in your mindset that "I need a lens, but have no money". You do not need a lens, or even a DSLR for that matter. You ended up saving $400 for your camera so do the same for the other things you want. Save up your pennies and sell the stuff you consider "crap" on a local forum.
> 
> ...



Please do correct me on my English. I have to admit, my English is quite poor. Why? Cause I'm only allowed to talk in Chinese with my parents and English was not my first language. I also had crappy English teachers, all we ever did was just talk and talk. I took College Prep classes, meaning all the crappy students that don't care about learning are in those classes and the teacher spends more time yelling at them than the actual teaching. I'm about to restart my entire English learning skills and begin with the basic grammar, etc. But please, do correct me even though I probably made a lot of mistakes. I'm not offended. 

You have to consider this too though, back in your time, depending how old you are, mister, that classes of today are much harder than the classes back then. Our history book even got an extra 200 pages cause of politics and the war in Iraq, etc. Our Biology, Chemistry, and Physics book also got a lot bigger cause of new discoveries. Even math changes from time to time. And it really just doesn't help when you have teachers teaching you something that they don't even know what they're doing. I might consider a part job when I'm in a university, since I should have more free time cause of my AP Credits. And once again, thank you to everyone that gave me suggestions, I appreciated it. 

And yes, economics applies to this, it's similar to this: pick two out of the three: Get Good Grades, Sleep, or Friends


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Chiuy said:
> 
> 
> > Those photographers are friendly, I don't know what's wrong with this forum.
> ...



Please do comment with your honest opinion. I don't normally use Flickr cause there are restrictions on how much I can upload.
And I'm not saying that every photo I took is perfect, I think it's far from perfect compared to a lot of people. And I make a lot of silly mistakes but I don't really care and still upload it.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> You have to consider this too though, back in your time, depending how old you are, mister, that classes of today are much harder than the classes back then.


 
Oh no you didn't!


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad. 
So you should know that AP Classes are quite stressful when you have like 6 of them and that you have very limited amount of time of finishing your homework.

@Bitter, but you do have to admit though, classes of today are much harder than the classes of yesterday. More information to absorb, even the standards are much higher. Even all my teachers said that the classes of today are harder than what they have learned.


----------



## Sachphotography (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad.
> So you should know that AP Classes are quite stressful when you have like 6 of them and that you have very limited amount of time of finishing your homework.
> 
> @Bitter, but you do have to admit though, classes of today are much harder than the classes of yesterday. More information to absorb, even the standards are much higher. Even all my teachers said that the classes of today are harder than what they have learned.



I would have to disagree with the fact that classes are harder today than in the past. I think classes today are very dumbed down. Look at the difference between literature book in the past vs today. It is like comparing The Bible to the Cat and The Hat. LOL


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Sachphotography said:


> Chiuy said:
> 
> 
> > Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad.
> ...



It really depends what classes you are looking at. 
If you're looking at a CP class, they have lazy students that don't do any of their work and barely reads through 3 books for the school year.
AP Class on the other hand, we read 3 books over the summer and at least 20+ books over the school year. I would like to see you try and take these courses right now before you make any comments about it. 
I don't really know anything about the past, so I don't really know anything, but back then, people were still discovering facts and methods on science, so it could have been hard to learn those new stuff.

In our biology classes, we are learning stem cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell
I don't believe you have to study those type of things back then? Stem cell research still has a long way to go.


----------



## usayit (Nov 22, 2010)

We used a potty chart and reward my son with stickers to put on it when he goes to the potty.   We expect him to continue to achieve progress long after we stop with the stickers.   Seems to me OP skipped this particular valuable lesson......

Seems to me there's a lot life has to teach beyond those AP classes....  I dont know why i follow this thread.  Each post reminds me of how much we have failed the next generation



Anyone have a quarter, OP probably got an A on an exam....  oh wait.  should be a dollar as times are far more challenging these days.


----------



## Derrel (Nov 22, 2010)

Don't you have a long list of elderly relatives, some of whom are, almost certainly,  preparing to die soon, and to leave you all the funds you will need to make it in your life?
I mean, wouldn't that be a great way to get a new lens? Maybe have your grandmother die, and leave you some money? Or maybe your father's brother will get hit by a bus, and will will you his cameras! I mean, I know it sounds awful and all, but hey.... a high school kid HAS to have hope, right?


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 22, 2010)

usayit said:


> We used a potty chart and reward my son with stickers to put on it when he goes to the potty.   We expect him to continue to achieve progress long after we stop with the stickers.   Seems to me OP skipped this particular valuable lesson......
> 
> Seems to me there's a lot life has to teach beyond those AP classes....  I dont know why i follow this thread.  Each post reminds me of how much we have failed the next generation
> 
> ...



Geeze, acting like you're sooooooooooo smart... But then you forget to figure out inflation? What were you thinking. 

Ugh, noobs. I tell ya.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Sachphotography said:
> 
> 
> > Chiuy said:
> ...



I know your type. You think you because you are in AP classes, you are so SMRT, and know it all. I find you like to make unfounded sweeping generalizations, are judgmental, have a long way to go with your photography regardless what your "pro" friends tell you, and have that sense of entitlement so common with the spoiled youth of today, and landed yourself on my ignore list.

Saying you have a long way to go with photography wasn't meant as an insult. It's just a fact. You are young, and you have a long way to go for everything. Get used to it.

Sorry.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> You have to consider this too though, back in your time, depending how old you are, mister, that classes of today are much harder than the classes back then. Our history book even got an extra 200 pages cause of politics and the war in Iraq, etc. Our Biology, Chemistry, and Physics book also got a lot bigger cause of new discoveries. Even math changes from time to time. And it really just doesn't help when you have teachers teaching you something that they don't even know what they're doing. I might consider a part job when I'm in a university, since I should have more free time cause of my AP Credits. And once again, thank you to everyone that gave me suggestions, I appreciated it.
> 
> And yes, economics applies to this, it's similar to this: pick two out of the three: Get Good Grades, Sleep, or Friends


 
Wow... You are in for a massive shock when you get into college.

I was in school then, I'm in school now and my son is in high school so I have a pretty good idea what level they're at. Physics is physics, neither Newton nor Galileo have published much since you've hit school. Biology is much the same, (stem cell research goes back to the early 60's), and the human body is still pretty muc the same as it was 30, 40 years ago... and there was plenty of history to learn before you got into school, several thousand years of it.  Entire civilizations rose and fell before either of us were ever thought of.

Books don't get bigger, they loose stuff when they add stuff. I promise you, you've not even begun to touch higher level physics or biology or history. You're gonna be drudgeing through all the same basic basics we all drudged through.

There is a common theme through this thread. That you have it rougher and harder than everyone else... You seem to see yourself in this deep dark hole while everyone else is carefree.  You seem fairly bright, but very sheltered.

You're far better off than you imagine.


----------



## doomhart (Nov 22, 2010)

What happened (and is happening, and is going to happen probably) to this thread (pattern):
1. OP (who is in HS, point:experience) asks for help
2. People (some have many years of experience) put in their 2 cents according to amassed knowledge and experience.
3. OP argues the Peoples input.
4. Some People put more of their 2 cents (total:4 cents), and some starts arguing against OP. 
5. Go back to either 2, 3, 4. 

Oh the freedom of the internet. Just listen to these people. They know what they're saying. At least most of them 

English is my second language too btw.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

doomhart said:


> What happened (and is happening, and is going to happen probably) to this thread (pattern):
> 1. OP (who is in HS, point:experience) asks for help
> 2. People (some have many years of experience) put in their 2 cents according to amassed knowledge and experience.
> 3. OP argues the Peoples input.
> ...


 
I think I've got about 86 cents invested in this thread. When I get over a buck I'm gonna start billing him and that's just gonna set back his new gear even further.


----------



## den9 (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Now... when did I ever said that I wanted someone to donate a lens to me? Stop making those craps up. If I could get a job right now, I would.
> Even on the weekend I spend most of my time studying. Taking classes related to Biomedical Engineering is kind of tough you know.
> And if you're wondering why I'm on this forum and not studying it's cause I'm on an one week break off from school.
> Right now, I'm using a cheap $30 flash, $20 50" tripod, and a Canon XSi that was used for $400 with the standard kit lenses. That's pretty cheap back then cause I got lucky.
> ...



then what are you looking for? we gave you advice, and the facts of life, you dont seem to accept it, if you want our sympathy go look else where.

and stop trying to make us feel bad by saying everyone hates you, or we just might.


----------



## DirtyDFeckers (Nov 22, 2010)

To the OP, throughout this thread, I see you say that things are "not the best."  Dude, you are a high school student, what do you expect?  With the exception of a few, most of the photographers on this forum were using what you might consider "junk" at your age.  If you can't go out and enjoy shooting with what you have, then you should consider a new hobby.  It isn't about being excited because of the equipment you are shooting with.  Sorry to say, but you have nicer equipment than a lot of people, so stop whining, seriously.  What answer, other than "save money," did you really expect?


----------



## manaheim (Nov 22, 2010)

OH YEAH?!  WELL ALL YOU PEOPLE JUST SMELL LIKE ROTTEN CABBAGE!!

Oh, I'm sorry... was that somehow more off the rails than, say, most of the rest of the thread?  Silly me.


----------



## Chiuy (Nov 22, 2010)

Please do tell me where I used the word "AP" to define myself as smart? I'm only using that as an excuse for why I can't get a part time job. I don't even know how the heck we got into this topic and I never said that I'm smart or you're dumb. 


> spoiled youth of today


Well then... who's generation raised us? Which generation left us over 13 trillion dollars in debt that we are going to have to fix in the near future somehow? 
If I was truly spoiled, I would be begging my parents to buy these lenses for me, but that just doesn't seem right, now is it? This is why I'll probably just going to wait till I get a decent job. 

Stem cell research goes back to the 60s, yes, but you still need research on it. We know a lot more about stem cell research compared in the 60s. Human body is constantly changing, it's called evolution and adapting. It may not be changing a lot, but it's changing slowly.


----------



## tommypalloj (Nov 22, 2010)

He meant spoiled as in expecting for something to be handed to you. When you can't afford something you save for it, or get a credit card and fall in debt yourself.


----------



## manaheim (Nov 22, 2010)

Wow, I think the train just crashed into another train about 3000 miles from the point where it leapt off the tracks.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

Manny, these threads are great for increasing your post count.


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Stem cell research goes back to the 60s, yes, but you still need research on it. We know a lot more about stem cell research compared in the 60s. Human body is constantly changing, it's called evolution and adapting. It may not be changing a lot, but it's changing slowly.


 
So how has any of this impacted you, personally, as a student of high school biology? Give me an example of someting that my education missed because it wasn't discovered or invented yet.

If we could disect old King Ramses or Kurg the caveman I think we're gonna find his biology to be pretty much the same as ours.......

That's not what evolution is about. We all got the same basic anatomy and physiology.  This may come as a shock, but if you tie a rock to your ankles and jump in a lake you're highly unlikely to adapt and grow gills...  Even though you already have the genes for them.  Don't try it.

And I admit I'm not exactly a kid anymore but Newtonian physics still predates me.


----------



## den9 (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Stem cell research goes back to the 60s, yes, but you still need research on it. We know a lot more about stem cell research compared in the 60s. Human body is constantly changing, it's called evolution and adapting. It may not be changing a lot, but it's changing slowly.




..................


----------



## den9 (Nov 22, 2010)

OP, what exactly are you trying to achieve with this thread?

are you not over the fact that equipment costs money, and you dont have a job?


----------



## DirtyDFeckers (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Now... when did I ever said that I wanted someone to donate a lens to me? Stop making those craps up. If I could get a job right now, I would.
> Even on the weekend I spend most of my time studying. Taking classes related to Biomedical Engineering is kind of tough you know.
> And if you're wondering why I'm on this forum and not studying it's cause I'm on an one week break off from school.
> Right now, I'm using a cheap $30 flash, $20 50" tripod, and a Canon XSi that was used for $400 with the standard kit lenses. That's pretty cheap back then cause I got lucky.
> ...





I just read this ^^^ after my first response to this thread.  After looking at your Flickr, I highly doubt any pro's would ask your advice.  I have read on here over and over, people telling you to be more creative with what you have, and you argue back... Now it all makes sense... you lack the creativity.... And there is nothing wrong with the people on this forum, except they are ADULTS who have better things to do than tell a hard headed high school kid the same thing over and over.  Either accept their answers, or move on dude, it's as simple as that.  Part of growing up is realizing that you aren't always going to hear what you want to hear... its life...sorry to break it to you.


----------



## DirtyDFeckers (Nov 22, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad.
> So you should know that AP Classes are quite stressful when you have like 6 of them and that you have very limited amount of time of finishing your homework.
> 
> @Bitter, but you do have to admit though, classes of today are much harder than the classes of yesterday. More information to absorb, even the standards are much higher. Even all my teachers said that the classes of today are harder than what they have learned.



Classes are the same as they have always been... Face it, the distractions of today make classes "seem" harder.... "hmmmm, do I listen to the teacher today, or play a cool game on my iPhone?"  See what I mean?


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

den9 said:


> OP, what exactly are you trying to achieve with this thread?



Immortality?


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

DirtyDFeckers said:


> Chiuy said:
> 
> 
> > Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad.
> ...


 
Many of the college pre-req classes are really a bit easier today.  The material is the same, but most instructors hand out study guides prior to a test.  If you study the material on the guide you generally are gonna do well on the test.  My first round through college somethng like tat was unheard of.  Anything in the book or lecture was fair game and you just sucked it up and studied all of it.

Now that I've move into higher level courses, the study guides are gone, and back to really having to know the material...


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Nov 22, 2010)

I just made a fresh bowl of popcorn. Anyone wants some?



I believe this has taken the lead for the "most ridiculous thread here" award.


----------



## Bitter Jeweler (Nov 22, 2010)

Real butter?


----------



## c.cloudwalker (Nov 22, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Real butter?



Hell yes! None of that movie theater crp...


----------



## Chamelion 6 (Nov 22, 2010)

You guys are just not really appreciating the drama unfolding here...  

Personally, I think this thread's gotten even better since the OP ended it 3 or 4 pages ago.


----------



## Sachphotography (Nov 22, 2010)

WOW! this poor kid..... I actually started laughing a couple times.
All I have to say is this guy got blasted.... Using life insurance to buy camera gear.
I deal with insurance...hmm new sales pitch! Thanks!
Ap classes dont mean a thing to be honest. AP classes are closer to where people should be at. So in reality by taking an AP class you should get to wear a sign that says
" I give a crap about my life and I am almost as smart as I should be and yes
I mastered 1 fish 2 fish red fish blue fish"

When I was doing my time in the AF I had the opportunity to take College tests for Class credit rather than sitting through hours and hours of classes.

I signed up and did 5 tests in 1 day equaling 6 hours each!   hmm 5 x 6 = 30

I earned 30 of my college hours in 5 hours?? Thats almost 1/2 a associates degree in a day!! I think thats pretty cool.....

just saying.....


----------



## doomhart (Nov 22, 2010)

Pass the popcorn please?

+1


----------



## Sachphotography (Nov 22, 2010)




----------



## doomhart (Nov 23, 2010)

Hey guys my thingie still says "TPF Noob"...how do i get rid of that?

+1


----------



## doomhart (Nov 23, 2010)

is it like thiiiiiiiiiis?

+1 more


----------



## Sachphotography (Nov 23, 2010)

doomhart said:


> Hey guys my thingie




Im sorry I did't make it past the first line..........


----------



## doomhart (Nov 23, 2010)

Sachphotography said:


> doomhart said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys my thingie
> ...



...


----------



## usayit (Nov 23, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Well then... who's generation raised us? Which generation left us over 13 trillion dollars in debt that we are going to have to fix in the near future somehow?
> If I was truly spoiled, I would be begging my parents to buy these lenses for me, but that just doesn't seem right, now is it? This is why I'll probably just going to wait till I get a decent job.




Holy crap..  Someone needs to kick this kids rear end before real life does it.....    Losers pass the blame.   "I'm a drunk because my dad is"   "I'm a gang banger because I grew up in the ghetto"   "I can't get a job because I'm discriminated"




> I'm only using that as an excuse for why I can't get a part time job


Really big losers pass the blame with excuses.


----------



## RauschPhotography (Nov 23, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> In another 8 years though, I can probably afford anything I want.


----------



## manaheim (Nov 23, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> den9 said:
> 
> 
> > OP, what exactly are you trying to achieve with this thread?
> ...


 
Win.


----------



## o hey tyler (Nov 23, 2010)

****in' magnets, how do they work?


----------



## Boomn4x4 (Nov 23, 2010)

Chiuy said:


> Oops, I apologize, after reading his posts again and that he was recently in college. My bad.
> So you should know that AP Classes are quite stressful when you have like 6 of them and that you have very limited amount of time of finishing your homework.
> 
> @Bitter, but you do have to admit though, classes of today are much harder than the classes of yesterday. More information to absorb, even the standards are much higher. Even all my teachers said that the classes of today are harder than what they have learned.


 
I was reading through all the posts, and was looking forward to defending you... these guys are being pretty harsh on you.... until I got to this post.

You, son, have smarted yourself stupid. Let me ask you some simple questions....

How many hours are in a day in the year 2010?
How many hours were in a day in 1910?
What is 10+10 in the year 2010?
What was 10+10 in the year 1910?
What is the atomical composition of water in 2010?
What was the atomical composition of water in 1910?
What year did Columbus find America in 2010?
What year did Columbus find America in 1910?

Now after answering those questions... how can you possibly suggest that you had less time to do harder work today, than 100 years ago?  I was in primary and secondary education for 13 years... I have spent another 12 years in post secondary education... I've got 25 years of education under my belt.  I can ASSURE you, the work relative to what I had learned, was no harder in Kindergarten than it was 25 years later while taking my last final.

Now, to answer your question....And I'm surprised you didn't learn this somewhere in all of your AP classes. If you have no money and you don't have anyone to buy you any more lenes... then you aren't going to get any more lenses. There is no Harry Potter magic that will create lenses out of the air for you.


----------



## jkevin (Nov 23, 2010)

boy what a discussion i use a d40 with two stock lens and plympus 510 also two stock lens and i just love it. really would like to see more than one of this kids pictures anyone else?


----------



## Bram (Nov 23, 2010)

This is the most wonderful timeeee of the yeaaaaaar!!! It's Christmas time man! Ask for a new lens. Ask for the 100 dollar nifty fifty man! ****! You're smart aren't you? I was curious previously you mentioned you're not financially stable, How are you going to study bio chemistry and what not if you can't afford classes. I don't know about you but where I love they don't give loans to people that can't pay them back. Just saying. Like mentioned before man go take photos with the gear you got now, try to sell them? Create your own open house hang photos around your house get people to come by and check them out. My parents own a store in town. On a Sunday I got them to agree with if I could hang up photos and get people to show up and check them out if they would print them out for me. They agreed and I made over 400 bucks that day. Not too shabby if I say so myself. Come on man use your imagination!


----------



## Boomn4x4 (Nov 23, 2010)

jkevin said:


> really would like to see more than one of this kids pictures anyone else?


 
Have you tried google??? :lmao:

Let me google that for you


----------



## 12sndsgood (Nov 23, 2010)

Boomn4x4 said:


> jkevin said:
> 
> 
> > really would like to see more than one of this kids pictures anyone else?
> ...


 


Back when i was in school we couldnt just google our answers. lol


----------



## den9 (Nov 23, 2010)

i think we made him cry





































*yes!*


----------



## enzodm (Nov 23, 2010)

Bram said:


> This is the most wonderful timeeee of the yeaaaaaar!!! It's Christmas time man! Ask for a new lens. Ask for the 100 dollar nifty fifty man! ****!



He already has a 50mm. He has also the 18-55 kit lens. He has also a 75-300. He has also a (cheap) flash. More than the average TPF beginner  .


----------

