# First 35mm SLR



## KaraElizabeth (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm taking a black and white darkroom class next month. I'm so excited for it. I contacted the instructor AND art center several days ago asking what camera he recommends/if they have lenders I could use in the beginning. Neither have responded as of yet. I'm hoping to find a nice, clean, inexpensive camera. Preferably $100 or under since film is purely recreational as of right now. (I can always upgrade later, right?)  I want to be able to do full on manual. I don't plan on buying too many lenses; I shoot film more for the art and fun of it. I'd rather invest the big bucks in digital gear. At least that's what I'm thinking this week.  
I was originally debating between the Pentax K1000 and Canon AE-1. Any information on these cameras? Other suggestions? What lenses are necessary?


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## Dinardy (Jul 20, 2013)

I always liked minoltas. But I guess I'm biased. 

Especially the MD Rokkor glass (which is decently cheap now). I have had an XE-7 for the last decade or so and I just fell in love with how it felt and shot, super durable body with decent metering capability... just my noobish 2cents.


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## Skidmark (Jul 20, 2013)

The Pentax K1000 is an excellent choice, you can find them on eBay with a 50 mm lens, usually for $60 or less. Any manual "K" mount lens will work on it, there are thousands of choices of those one eBay too. I've heard good things about the AE1, but have no experience with them.


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## Derrel (Jul 20, 2013)

The Canon AE-1 and AE-1 Program were two of the highest-production 35mm SLRs ever built, and many of the original owners of these camera are passing on, and their families are donating their camera gear to GOodwill in pretty high numbers. An AE-1 Program and 50mm FD normal lens sells for $24.95 here, and there's about one camera a week to ten days coming in. Minolta X-series camera are also coming in pretty regularly. THe knock against the Pentax K1000 is the mechanical, match0-needle meter system, which is somewhat prone to breakage. However, offsetting that, the camera's shutter and lens diaphragm actuation are 100%R mechanically done, requiring NO batteries to actually shoot pictures.

The Canons are cheap in large part because the Canon manual focus lens mounts are dead-ends. Same with Minolta, dead end. Pentax K OTOH, is still usable on brand new cameras.


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks for all the feedback! I was going to get the AE-1, but recently am leaning more towards the K1000 honestly. I'll check out the Minolta's and can't wait for more opinions.


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## cgw (Jul 20, 2013)

Both those are boderline relics. With most once-popular 35mm cameras going for peanuts now, you might also look at Nikon AF models like the 8008s and N90s--both work very nicely with manual focus lenses. I'd get the newest you can afford. There's really nothing inherently superior in oldies like the K1000/AE-1/Minolta X series. Old Nikon models like the FE/FM variants are worth a look. I'd not bother with Nikons older than these.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 20, 2013)

I love B&W film and darkroom work - you're making me feel excited for you! The Pentax was always popular as a student camera and they made some nice lenses so would probably be a good choice for a class. I'm not as familiar with the AE-1 - it's probably too 'high-tech' for me if it takes a battery for anything other than the meter! but I have some Canon FD mount that I like. I'm not familiar with Minolta but people like those too and the Rokkor lenses were always supposed to be good - any you're considering would probably work fine for you for class.

I've done well with  Buy & Sell New & Used Cameras ? Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Leica & More - KEH.com  and I think they would be an option later on to trade in and upgrade. Or to add to whatever system you choose.. (if you turn into one of these  Darkroom Rat !)


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 20, 2013)

Everyone has their preferences, the most recent camera I bought was made c1920. I've bought all kinds of old cameras and use most of them from time to time.


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## Robin_Usagani (Jul 20, 2013)

If you shoot canon currently, I would just get a new film camera that takes EOS mount.  Shouldnt cost very much.  Less than $50.  That way you can use same lenses.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jul 20, 2013)

AE-1. I kept mine when I switched to Nikon because they (all three of them) did so much for me. Like stated earlier the glass is dead so great lenses can be had cheap.


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 20, 2013)

Thank you, everybody.


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## peter27 (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm no expert but the majority of the photos I've uploaded to this forum were taken with a K1000 and a 50mm lens. Take a look and see what you think.


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## timor (Jul 20, 2013)

cgw said:


> Both those are boderline relics. With most once-popular 35mm cameras *going for peanuts now*, you might also look at Nikon AF models like the 8008s and N90s--both work very nicely with manual focus lenses. I'd get the newest you can afford. There's really nothing inherently superior in oldies like the K1000/AE-1/Minolta X series. Old Nikon models like the FE/FM variants are worth a look. I'd not bother with Nikons older than these.


In which part of Toronto you live ? Surely not mine. Bodies like 8008 are going for nothing, true, but try to get the lenses. On the other hand I don't see anything superior in this AF bodies, the opposite, they are overcomplicated with too many "auto" options. The only problem with borderline relics is reliability maybe so go for good brands like Pentax or Minolta.


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## cgw (Jul 21, 2013)

timor said:


> cgw said:
> 
> 
> > Both those are boderline relics. With most once-popular 35mm cameras *going for peanuts now*, you might also look at Nikon AF models like the 8008s and N90s--both work very nicely with manual focus lenses. I'd get the newest you can afford. There's really nothing inherently superior in oldies like the K1000/AE-1/Minolta X series. Old Nikon models like the FE/FM variants are worth a look. I'd not bother with Nikons older than these.
> ...



Try looking on eBay? Primes like the 50/1.8E and 50/2Ai aren't that spendy. "Overcomplicated with too many "auto" options" puzzles me since the cameras I mentioned are very straightforward and can easily be set to run in manual mode. Aperture priority is handy. They have big bright viewfinders and also do spot metering. They're quite tough, use built-in motor drives and run on AA batteries. I gave up on non-mechanical Minoltas after two X-700s crashed, thanks to their baked-in problem with bum capacitors. You should also mention the cost and difficulty in finding competent repairs for the oldies. My only point is that film photography isn't dependent on Nixon/Ford era cameras.


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## timor (Jul 21, 2013)

cgw said:


> My only point is that film photography isn't dependent on Nixon/Ford era cameras.


 My point is if one want to shoot film in this type of cameras - what's the point, digital is less troublesome. I have F70,F75,F80, all factory new bodies. They do things I don't like, they are slow, need constant control of the settings, they refuse to fire when I want (obviously they supposed to be smarter ?) because something is not right (be it exposure or focus) according to theirs "logic". Must be, that I am not alone here as nobody wants this electronic film bodies, K1000 or Spotmatic costs more in average.
I think, that film technology went to the point where as a hobby is not about just "taking pictures", but something more like real control over medium and for that relics and hand held spotmeter are just good.


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## gsgary (Jul 22, 2013)

Spend more get a Leica M2/3/4 it will still be worth what you paid in 3 years time


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## cgw (Jul 22, 2013)

"_They do things I don't like, they are slow, need constant control of the  settings, they refuse to fire when I want (obviously they supposed to be  smarter ?) because something is not right (be it exposure or focus)  according to theirs "logic". Must be, that I am not alone here as nobody  wants this electronic film bodies, K1000 or Spotmatic costs more in  average.
I think, that film technology went to the point where as a hobby is not  about just "taking pictures", but something more like real control over  medium and for that relics and hand held spotmeter are just good_."

Never used those bodies or bothered with them after the price crashed on better used Nikon models. The "prosumer" Nikon AF bodies like the 8008s, N90s and F100 offered total control over focus, exposure, and shutter release outside of "P" mode--something I'm not sure you understood or used judging from your comments.

The problem with the "oldies" is that they're...old. Unless you're making a retro fashion statement, there's not much reason to believe an old Spot will do more or do it better than something years younger.


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## timor (Jul 22, 2013)

cgw;3010353The problem with the "oldies" is that they're...old. Unless you're making a retro fashion statement said:
			
		

> O, that's the problem. , Well, for some people it might be important.
> 
> _"The "prosumer" Nikon AF bodies like the 8008s, N90s and F100 offered  total control over focus, exposure, and shutter release outside of "P"  mode--something I'm not sure you understood or used judging from your  comments."_
> 
> Never doubt that, they are not much different from digital bodies and they will deliver very similar experience. So, what's the point ? If you go hiking in the mountains you want to experience something different from everyday car ride, if you go camping in tent you want experience something different than hotel room. If you shoot film, why not to experience it at the core of own thinking ? For that, K1000 and hand held spotmeter is good. Well, all depends where from you draw your satisfaction.


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## dsiglin (Jul 22, 2013)

for what it is worth I just recently bought an Olympus OM2n and have really enjoyed its compact size and performance. It's all mechanical except for AE mode, the metering was spot on with the first roll of film so no complaints there. Nice bright viewfinder and good ergonomics.


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## cgw (Jul 22, 2013)

"_Never doubt that, they are not much different from digital bodies and  they will deliver very similar experience. So, what's the point_ ?"

I happily use a Sekonic 558 with my meterless MF Mamiyas and Bronica, but futzing around with a spot meter pretty much negates the simplicity, speed, and fast handling of a 35mm camera with a precise built-in meter and motorized film advance. The comparison to digital is bizarre.


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 22, 2013)

Found a Canon AT-1 for a good price and read about it on Wikipedia. It looks like it could serve my needs quite well. Anybody have opinions on that model?


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## timor (Jul 22, 2013)

cgw said:


> "_Never doubt that, they are not much different from digital bodies and  they will deliver very similar experience. So, what's the point_ ?"
> 
> I happily use a Sekonic 558 with my meterless MF Mamiyas and Bronica, but futzing around with a spot meter pretty much negates the simplicity, speed, and fast handling of a 35mm camera with a precise built-in meter and motorized film advance. The comparison to digital is bizarre.


What's so bizarre about that comparison ? Is not digital built for simplicity and fast handling ? Shoot RAW and fix it in PS ? Anyway, where are you rushing with film ? Especially with 35mm ? Those times are over, no one shoots it anymore for newspapers or weddings (with few exceptions ). What for you need motors and winders and what do you mean with "precise built-in meters" ? Does you meter know, what are you doing ? Or it is only showing you the average, is trying hard to show you the current value for "sunny 16" of the moment. You should know that since you are using good spot with MF and you have to make the decision by yourself. Or is that all darn boring to you, which is perfectly alright, and you prefer just to only press the trigger. I think, there is a point in that "making own decision".


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## timor (Jul 22, 2013)

KaraElizabeth said:


> Found a Canon AT-1 for a good price and read about it on Wikipedia. It looks like it could serve my needs quite well. Anybody have opinions on that model?


 Did you have this camera in your hand ? Did you try it already ? I never had AT-1 but still have A1 from the same family. Electronics controlling the shutter went bonkers, so don't pay too much for that camera as once gone is gone, no mechanical back-up.


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 22, 2013)

No, I'm looking online as I need to have a camera soon. The site I'm on is quite reputable and have had success purchasing used vintage cameras from there before. So are you saying AT-1 is less reliable than others and I should spend a little more on something else? The AT-1 is $35.


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## cgw (Jul 22, 2013)

timor said:


> cgw said:
> 
> 
> > "_Never doubt that, they are not much different from digital bodies and  they will deliver very similar experience. So, what's the point_ ?"
> ...



This seems consistent with the somewhat silly notion that "true" film photography has to take a giant leap backwards to the 1960s to be valid. I enjoy candid shots and street photography that the last generation of film cameras made a great deal easier. I don't grasp your aversion to those cameras which you think are somehow mysteriously incapable of being controlled. The exposure latitude of C-41 always made up for minor to moderate exposure errors. It's somewhat pointless to make 35mm photography into a joyless catechism of rules and procedures when manageable technology can actually make it fun and productive. I'm not shooting wet plate yet and enjoy the convenience and precision of the late AF 35mm cameras. Either you never figured out how these cameras work or never owned them.


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## cgw (Jul 22, 2013)

KaraElizabeth said:


> No, I'm looking online as I need to have a camera soon. The site I'm on is quite reputable and have had success purchasing used vintage cameras from there before. So are you saying AT-1 is less reliable than others and I should spend a little more on something else? The AT-1 is $35.



If you like it and it works, shoot it till it breaks, then get another one. That's the way it works in 2013 with inexpensive film cameras. They're mostly disposable now---sadly.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 22, 2013)

I took a quick look on a couple of sites I use from time to time to look up old cameras, don't know if these will help you decide. Seems like it's somewhat similar to the AE-1 but all manual. I like mechanical cameras because I wouldn't often use auto features anyway. Depends I suppose on if you want the option for auto settings, but chances are for the class you'll probably be using manual settings. 

Canon Camera Museum | Camera Hall - Film Cameras 

James's Camera Collection: Canon AT-1 

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/canon/canon_at-1/canon_at-1.htm


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 22, 2013)

Wow, thank you so much!! My instructor replied to my email and recommends Pentax K1000 (out of all cameras) but also said Canons are good too. I may just end up borrowing his gear for some of the class' duration.


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## limr (Jul 22, 2013)

Don't know about the Canon film SLRs but they make sense if the OP is already shooting Canon (I don't recall if that was ever make clear by the OP). My bf shoots a Canon P and loves it - it can take Leica screw-mount lenses, too, which can make it more interesting - but that's a rangefinder (I assume an SLR is needed for the class?)

I have to give my vote to the Pentax, though. I've had my K1000 for 20 years and it's never let me down. It takes good pictures and the Asahi lenses are really good. My 50mm 1.7 is wonderfully sharp. It's just such a solid camera - so reliable that just last week, I dropped it on concrete and the top panel suffered a small crack on the side, but it didn't affect the functioning of the camera at all. The thing is a tank.

I've got nothing against the Nikons but between my K1000, Spotmatic, and seven lenses, I'm pretty locked into the Pentax system. Can't afford to build a Nikon one, but also don't feel any need to as I'm perfectly happy with my Pentax.

I don't care about automatic settings. Older isn't always better, but neither is newer. And for someone just learning, having complete control over the settings is important.


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## EstherC (Jul 23, 2013)

vintagesnaps said:


> I've done well with  Buy & Sell New & Used Cameras ? Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Leica & More - KEH.com  and I think they would be an option later on to trade in and upgrade. Or to add to whatever system you choose.. (if you turn into one of these  Darkroom Rat !)



I've purchased some stuff from KEH. They definitely have the biggest collections of used camera gears to choose from. 14 days return policy is a bit short though IMO. 

I checked out the Darkroom Rat. They have some really cute stuff!


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## EstherC (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm pretty new to film so can't really recommend. What I can say is that one of the reason I love about a film camera is that I can own a camera that is totally mechanical. All I need is my film. Never need to worry about running out of battery. For the camera that use battery solely for the meter, you can still shoot even the battery is dead as long as you know the sunny 16 rule.


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## timor (Jul 23, 2013)

cgw said:


> _This seems consistent with the somewhat silly notion that "true" film photography has to take a giant leap backwards to the 1960s to be valid_.


:shock: Did I say that ? Or you just putting words in my mouth ? Your point of view on the remnants of the film photography is obviously different than my, no doubts. It is perfectly alright to be fascinated with technology and how it can help us. In photography to. Maybe you noticed that I never ask what camera was used to make an image, this is not a point of judgment, absolutely, but I ask for freedom of what gives me fun. What I propose is maybe not for everyone, as you said, some may see it as joyless catechism :blackeye:. This is curious since I am all about braking rules...just consciously. What I am proposing is to make out of this redundant film technology (even 35mm) experience quite different from mainstreem digital technology. We don't need to be productive with film, but we can do more, than just produce a good, informative image. I would like to shift from empiric photography and go more with visualization, more in direction of poetic-subjective images. For that, of course, any camera with manual capabilities will do. In one word I propose total reliance on own thinking, it may work for some to deliver fun.


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## gsgary (Jul 23, 2013)

KaraElizabeth said:


> Wow, thank you so much!! My instructor replied to my email and recommends Pentax K1000 (out of all cameras) but also said Canons are good too. I may just end up borrowing his gear for some of the class' duration.



Did you mention Leica ?


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## timor (Jul 23, 2013)

gsgary said:


> KaraElizabeth said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, thank you so much!! My instructor replied to my email and recommends Pentax K1000 (out of all cameras) but also said Canons are good too. I may just end up borrowing his gear for some of the class' duration.
> ...


Leica L3 ?


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## KaraElizabeth (Jul 23, 2013)

I didn't mention any cameras and he suggested the Pentax. Thanks everyone for their input!


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## gsgary (Jul 23, 2013)

KaraElizabeth said:


> I didn't mention any cameras and he suggested the Pentax. Thanks everyone for their input!



Pentax made one of the most wonderful portrait lenses, 85mmF1.4 but they don't come cheap

Canon 85mm f1.2 L v Pentax SMC 85mm f1.4


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## pete72 (Jul 25, 2013)

dsiglin said:


> for what it is worth I just recently bought an Olympus OM2n and have really enjoyed its compact size and performance. It's all mechanical except for AE mode, the metering was spot on with the first roll of film so no complaints there. Nice bright viewfinder and good ergonomics.



The OM2 / OM2n are electronically controlled. OM1 / OM1n are totally mechanical. You can even hear the mechanism whirring on a longer exposure!
OM3 / OM3Ti are mechanical too but 2nd hand prices of these are still high.
Olympus Zuiko lenses are really sharp & the bodies have the shutter speed around the lens mount which feels really odd at first but fantastic once you get used to it: you can adjust shutter speed & aperture with one movement.
I had a Pentax K1000 too, but it felt cheap & bulky compared to my OM1.


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## iPhoto17 (Aug 2, 2013)

I used the Pentax K1000 through high school, wonderful camera to learn on and takes very nice pictures


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