# Being discrete as possible



## zamanakhan (Oct 19, 2010)

Iam going to be traveling to the middle east soon and ive been warned over and over again by some family and friends to not take my camera equipment out of the house as there is a good chance i may get mugged or shot for my equipment. I've been reading up and talking to other people and it seems the threat is very real and things like this happen often and the value of life is not great. This really makes me sad as keeping the camera in the house will be a waste and exploration and photography often go hand in hand. I was wondering what you guys do to keep urself as covert as possible? i was thinking of purchasing a d70 or a used d50 (something under $200) and using a cheapy dx lens such as my 55-200 or a 50 1.8, something i wont miss too much.


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## Derrel (Oct 19, 2010)

I think you mean discreet, not discrete. Using a consumer camera, something with a silver body, makes you look touristy. Use no lenses that have a big, honking profile, and that gaudy, white Canon L-series "look-at-me !!"  paint job. Use consumer-level gear if you're afraid of drawing unwanted attention to yourself and your equipment. If you worry about your gear and its safety, your pictures will suffer.


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## zamanakhan (Oct 19, 2010)

Derrel said:


> I think you mean discreet, not discrete. Using a consumer camera, something with a silver body, makes you look touristy. Use no lenses that have a big, honking profile, and that gaudy, white Canon L-series "look-at-me !!"  paint job. Use consumer-level gear if you're afraid of drawing unwanted attention to yourself and your equipment. If you worry about your gear and its safety, your pictures will suffer.



fear for my safety just as much... i dont really have anything that screams LOOK at me Nikon doesnt have any silver lenses or dslrs so iam fine in that department. I was thinking of getting a sigma 70-210 variable aperature lens along with a 2 generation old camera and using that.


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## Neil S. (Oct 19, 2010)

Use this lens lol, I promise that it will not attract any unwanted attention...


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## tirediron (Oct 19, 2010)

Where in the Middle East?  I've been all over that area, including the Emirates, Qata, Kuawait and Oman and never felt anything but completely safe.  Iran or Iraq, yes, potential dangerous, but most of the area is fine.  I would be careful choosing subjects though as many of the locals aren't fond of being photographed foreigners.


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## zamanakhan (Oct 19, 2010)

pakistan karachi


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## Leo4 (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a idea. Give them the gear, its not worth getting killed. Like said before shoot something inexpensive. Nikon N80 with a kit lens or a similar Canon set-up. I would just buy the $125 film set-up. 



Or given your status in this country, if your a citizen obtain a weapon permit and carry a sidearm thats visible, Tarus pistols are cheap and relible. I recommend a .40cal gives you maxium rounds with good knock down. Its what I carry when me and my wife are home in El Salvador. People wont mess with you if they know you are going to shoot back. :er:


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## Ub3rdoRK (Oct 20, 2010)

Neil S. said:


> Use this lens lol, I promise that it will not attract any unwanted attention...



hahaha they may think you are wielding a RPG or something


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## Jeatley (Oct 20, 2010)

Get a G11 and go to work!!!


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## Greasy (Oct 20, 2010)

Karachi is a different story... 

I have lived in the Middle East (Oman) and traveled extensively in the region (several emirates, Qatar, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco etc.). Moving back to Oman in a month. I can tell you that I have NEVER felt like my belongings (or my well-being) were really in danger. 

Don't go flaunting expensive goodies in an area that is visibly struggling, but that doesn't mean you can't take pictures. I would suggest having your camera all set up before going out. You don't want to be tossing around different lenses or anything. I would also say to avoid a tripod, as that would add to the image. 


Know that, in Islam, photographing people is frowned upon. Allah is seen as the creator of all living beings, so artistic depictions of people sort of complicate that. Chances are that many people will be fine with it, but please do use common sense. When in doubt, ASK! 

(And giving tips to people who allow you to photograph them is never a good idea. It pi**es off future tourists who are badgered for money and it can negatively influence economies!)


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## Flash Harry (Oct 20, 2010)

Could you tell the westerners here what isn't frowned upon in Islam, I for one would really like to know as it appears to be anything upsets these people and their superior religion, why they want to live in the west amazes me when there's plenty desert space available at home, free repatriation sounds like a good idea. H


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## tirediron (Oct 20, 2010)

zamanakhan said:


> pakistan karachi


 
Agree, that is definitely a different story.  I think the G11 is an excellent idea.


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## Greasy (Oct 20, 2010)

Flash Harry said:


> Could you tell the westerners here what isn't frowned upon in Islam, I for one would really like to know as it appears to be anything upsets these people and their superior religion, why they want to live in the west amazes me when there's plenty desert space available at home, free repatriation sounds like a good idea. H



Seriously?

(And I am a Westerner, pal...)


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## Infidel (Oct 20, 2010)

Greasy said:
			
		

> Know that, in Islam, photographing people is frowned upon. Allah is seen as the creator of all living beings, so artistic depictions of people sort of complicate that. Chances are that many people will be fine with it, but please do use common sense. When in doubt, ASK!





Flash Harry said:


> Could you tell the westerners here what isn't frowned upon in Islam, I for one would really like to know as it appears to be anything upsets these people and their superior religion, why they want to live in the west amazes me when there's plenty desert space available at home, free repatriation sounds like a good idea. H



The point of Greasy's post was related to how to act as a photographer in a culturally aware manner, while in a largely Islamic country. What was the point of your post?


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## ghache (Oct 20, 2010)

I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.


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## Greasy (Oct 20, 2010)

ghache said:


> I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.



Thats your choice.

I personally really appreciate people like you. It means there are less annoying tourists wandering around. 


I don't mind being considerate when a guest in another country. But hey, to each his own.


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## rpm (Oct 20, 2010)

Flash Harry said:


> Could you tell the westerners here what isn't frowned upon in Islam, I for one would really like to know as it appears to be anything upsets these people and their superior religion, why they want to live in the west amazes me when there's plenty desert space available at home, free repatriation sounds like a good idea. H





ghache said:


> I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.



wow there are some really arrogant people in this world, never knew  respect, understanding and courtesy was synonymous with bigotry to some.  

you're guest in another country, culturally diff from your own, who are  you to impose your values, ethics or culture on others? they're not  being superior, they're not being hateful, they're being who they are in  their own country. they're your hosts (figuratively speaking) but fundamentally you're the guest there...

its you who needs to take a rain check...


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## Leo4 (Oct 20, 2010)

Bunch of commies


Lets invade it.


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## Buckster (Oct 20, 2010)

Along the same lines, any thoughts on photography in Israel from those experienced in the region?


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## Greasy (Oct 20, 2010)

Buckster said:


> Along the same lines, any thoughts on photography in Israel from those experienced in the region?



I've been to Palestine (not to get political or anything).


I would say that in the culturally "Israeli" areas, you won't have any issues whatsoever. It is basically the West. 

When it comes to the West Bank, it really depends where you are. The only place I got any sort of looks was in Balata refugee camp (near Nablus). I kept having kids running up to me asking me to take their picture. When I would, adults would yell at them... so I stopped just to be safe. In cities like Ramallah, which are still more conservative than others, everything is fine. I was shooting a lot of the political graffiti and people seemed very interested. 

Where in the country are you talking about?


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## rpm (Oct 20, 2010)

im very envious of you people traveling round the middle east and neighboring countries...


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## Josh66 (Oct 20, 2010)

ghache said:


> I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.


There are parts of the US (and any other country, I'm sure...) where the same advice given would also apply...


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## JG_Coleman (Oct 20, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> ghache said:
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> > I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.
> ...



Ain't that the truth!  Let's see... there are two main cities in my state.  New Haven gets about 20 murders per year and around 60 rapes.  Hell...in 2006, Hartford made it to the "List of 100 Most Murderous Cities in the US"... roughly 2 murders for every 10,000 people.

Detroit, Michigan... which placed second on the list in 2006... had nearly 5 murders for every 10,000!  To put that into perspective... that means Detroit residents were about two times more likely to be murdered that year than be dealt four-of-a-kind in a single hand of poker (1:4,165).


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## Josh66 (Oct 20, 2010)

JG_Coleman said:


> O|||||||O said:
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> > ghache said:
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Where are you pulling those numbers from?  (I'd be interested in seeing how cities near me rank - I'm sure Dallas is up there...)


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## Greasy (Oct 20, 2010)

(My specialty is Oman, so thats where these numbers are from. I know this doesn't represent the region as a whole, but it is still a conservative country in the Middle East.)

Taken from an Interpol study, in 2000 there were .91 murders per 100,000 people. Compare this with the 5.51 for the US. 

For robberies, there were 2.58/100,000 in Oman. 144.92 for the US.

All combined offenses (there were 7 or 8 of them): In Oman it was 86.21/100,000. In the US it was 4,123.97/100,000. 


Just sayin'.



Edit: Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any statistics regarding photography-related crime.


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## JG_Coleman (Oct 20, 2010)

O|||||||O said:


> JG_Coleman said:
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Go to: Top 101 cities with the highest number of murders in 2006 per 10,000 residents, excludes tourist destinations and others with a lot of outsiders visiting based on city industries data (population 50,000+)

It's actually a list of the 101...  Dallas ranks #63 with 1.5 murders per 10,000 people.  I wouldn't call this a "scholarly resource", but it's neat.


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## Infidel (Oct 21, 2010)

In the U.S. only about 14% of homicide victims are killed by someone they don't know. 50% are killed by acquaintances or family and the cause for the remaining cases (~36%) is undetermined.

USDOJ statistics

Point being, the odds of being murdered for your camera are pretty low. Just insure your equipment and hand it over if threatened.


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## Buckster (Oct 21, 2010)

Greasy said:


> Buckster said:
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> 
> > Along the same lines, any thoughts on photography in Israel from those experienced in the region?
> ...


I haven't got an itinerary, so I'm unsure. Don't even know yet if I'm going, but there's a distinct possibility in the very near future.


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## ghache (Oct 21, 2010)

rpm said:


> Flash Harry said:
> 
> 
> > Could you tell the westerners here what isn't frowned upon in Islam, I for one would really like to know as it appears to be anything upsets these people and their superior religion, why they want to live in the west amazes me when there's plenty desert space available at home, free repatriation sounds like a good idea. H
> ...


 

LOLLLLL



Dont worry i wont be travelling in those country were you can get killed for carying a camera. dont worry. 
I pretty sure you dont get killed for using a camera in 99% of the world country but since you bring the respect and the religious aspect of it, I will add something to my post.

You talk about being guess in other country. you have clearly no idea whats going in Canada with the "Reasonable accommodation" law yet they keep bringing up **** to the canadian supreme court in order to change those laws. 

Christmas tree being removed from public places, airports, shopping center because some people with different religious view think its innapropirate. 
Gyms and fitness gym closing windows stores because some woman could be seen working out. 
YET they want to wear a kirpan in highschool in a country where a swiss knife is almost illegal. Talk about imposing your values to other peoples without respect in a country were you are *fundamentally a guess.*

bigotry ? racism? not really


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## zamanakhan (Oct 21, 2010)

k lets not turn this into a freedom war... 

iam aware of the religious beliefs but its not the religious folks iam worried about at all. i've been thinking of getting a used d70 (got a decent deal for 150 lined up) and using a cheapie lens or using my film kit with b&w. the thing is i have a hard time shelling out even 150 for the d70 cause that 170 that can go towards a new 50 1.4 or a wide angle zoom.


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## Mike_E (Oct 21, 2010)

Get a TLR.  Then go and buy a bag and some clothing that fits the area.  If you can, get used- not too expensive or ratty just middle of the road attire.  Very few people are going to steal a TLR, especially from somebody that looks like they could live around the 
area.


With the TLR you can be facing one direction and still focus and shoot at a 90 degree angle so street shooting is much easier.  Also being medium format film it will give you plenty of image quality, you won't have to worry about lugging around a laptop and chances are good that you'll be able to get it developed there and just mail the negatives to yourself and scan them or have them scanned when you get home.

Kodak Ektar 100 is a great film for this BTW.

Have a good (and safe) trip!



OBTW: just before you leave you can trade the camera for memorabilia- just sayin.


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## rpm (Oct 21, 2010)

> LOLLLLL
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guesT...

you forget something very diff, fundamentally diff, between the US/Canada and the Middle East, the former is based on a democratic system (as is most of the 'West') which is built upon various ideals, some of which involves the respect of all cultures and religions, protection of individual rights etc where as the latter, politics and religion are inseparable,  religious law is country law. if you cant see the difference in that then you're refusing to see the fundamental extremes that exist between these two systems of governance - im not saying i agree with it. i personally feel politics and religion should be separate within the state - however you cannot ignore those differences while making your comments...which you have...


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## ghache (Oct 21, 2010)

rpm said:


> > LOLLLLL
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Your going out of context here. We were talking about an invidual going in another country blending in a different culture as a person. whatever buddy, this can go on for hours, i get your point, you get mine.


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## rpm (Oct 21, 2010)

"We were talking about an invidual going in another country blending in a different culture as a person"

actually no. i was unhappy by some of the prejudice responses regarding how to behave in the middle eastern country in regards to photography and basic safety common sense. 

you decided to bring up foreigners living in the West and how they want their religion respected within the Western environment even though they're guests.

I replied stating how while this is true. it is the West who talks of being built on values of respect, civil liberties and protection of individual rights; therefore all cultures should be respected for their differences and a middle ground found if a country were to uphold these beliefs to the letter. edit: these are the very same reasons a number of immigrants migrate to the Western states btw. its not to feel isolated and marginalized for being foreign. 

but i then reminded you that middle eastern countries are based on religious laws, so you're looking at two diff political-systems and ethical environments. so you cannot take the case of foreigners in the West and directly compare it to foreigners visiting the Middle East with disregard to this fundamental difference. 

so it was nothing about an individual going in another country blending in a different culture as a person...

it was about individuals respecting another country's culture, not blending, especially in regards to a country that is considered conservative and highly religious even if that meant avoiding taking pictures of people you see in the streets without asking first...which some took 'offense' to for whatever reason...

but you're right we can go on this for hours but dont change what my original reply was about nor what i argued further since it was all replies to what you said.


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## photographystudent (Oct 25, 2010)

Why not take something that is disposable? U don't have to have something digital to take great pictures. Right now Holga film camera's are becoming trendy and they cost only $50 and take cool pictures.
Explore your options.


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## K8-90 (Oct 25, 2010)

ghache said:


> rpm said:
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> > Flash Harry said:
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Wow... The arrogance and ignorance is just gob-smacking!

I happen to know of that Christmas tree incident. It was taken down by people (WASPs) trying to be politically correct, without any of you're terrible little immigrant-others asking for it! So be careful where you lie your blame.

And do you have any backing for saying muslim countries kill you for carrying a camera? Something more than the fox "news" that I'm sure you just lap-up... There are many reports and studies that find that the US is actually the top most dangerous tourist destination in terms of robbery, rape and murder. I will try and provide the article with the actually numbers.

People like you just push my buttons


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## djacobox372 (Oct 25, 2010)

ghache said:


> I wouldnt visit a country were i cant freely use a ****in camera and have to worry about my LIFE. How retarded those "peoples" can be.



There are many parts of the united states where you'd be risking your life to walk around with thousands of $$ of camera equipment in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time.

The danger in traveling is that you are typically ignorant to what places and times are dangerous.


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