# Toning Paper



## photoman (Sep 3, 2003)

Hi does anyone have any experience toning paper? I would like to start toning papers but i dont know which toner works best with types of papers. I am curently using kodak polycontrast III rc and polymax II rc my fixer is kodafix. I am looking at using Edwals toner for their different colors of toning like brown to green.
I dont want to ues selenium toner selenium because of its toxicity. :shock: (doesnt me dont post about it though the option is still open)

Does any one have any experience with sepia tone either?

Really would like to try and tone some of my b&w prints  

  Any help would be appreaciated


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## ksmattfish (Sep 3, 2003)

I tried some Edwals once that I picked up at a garage sale.  It didn't really work, but it probably was ancient.

Sepia toning is easy, but a bit stinky.  So you might do it outside.  Warmtone papers definately work the best.  On neutral tone paper the effect is reduced.

I think that the toxic issue with selinium toner is it's reaction to the fixer in improperly washed prints.  Just make sure that you wash properly, and soak your prints in a bath of hypo-clear before the selinium bath.  And do it in a well ventilated area or outside.  Mixed 1 part selinium to 20 parts water it increases the density of your blacks.  Ansel always selinium toned.  Mixed stronger it gives a purple or magenta sort of tone.  Once again, you'll probably find that the purple tone is stronger on warmtone paper.

Selinium and sepia toning also increase the lifespan of the print.


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

selenium is a metal and by itself can be toxic, but if you happen to look at the msds of the ingredients of other toners, you won't be much more comfortable than you are w/selenium.

basic rules: don't drink it, don't bathe in it, don't directly inhale vapors/powder. simple.

kodak brown toner is excellent. the green toners will_be_green. if you want a subtle green, try vandium. you can also use a sepia/blue split on warmtone to get a subtle green.


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

some other stuff:

papers - ilford papers will not tone very well. kodak papers will tone, but i dislike the paper in the first place. if you are happy with kodak paper, then you'll be fine. i prefer agfa papers.

fix - if you are really interested in toning, i suggest you go to a non-acid stop bath and tf4 fixer. use 30s to 1m in water as a stop and 30s in tf4 for the fix. the totally alkaline process will make your toning much easier and noticeably better.


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## photoman (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks for the info  


What is the tf4 im not too familar with other fixers other that kodaks.


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

on which toning process do you need instruction? i listed quite a few as did you.


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## photoman (Sep 4, 2003)

Sorry about the other post i didnt know you posted it  


I'm not to familar with tf4   

If i use kodaks rapid fixer (part one fixer, part two hardner) will that work the same as the tf4?

The process that im not too familar with is the process after developing.

Should i just develop, use water stop bath, fix with a fixer that doesn't harden the emulsion, then tone for the desired amout of time then wash normaly?

Im sorry if this all seams kind of dumb ale:


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

tf4 process:

develop paper
water stop bath for 30 seconds
fix for 30 seconds

kodak fix process:

develop paper
5 seconds in an acetic acid bath
~1:30 in fix


tf4:
http://www.photoformulary.com/Deskt...&tabindex=2&categoryid=3&selection=0&langID=0


i haven't/won't try the process w/the kodak fix minus the hardener. 

you _can_ tone w/the hardening fix.


so i ask again, for what toning process do you desire instruction? most have them included. selenium, thiocarb sepia, splits do not.


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## photoman (Sep 4, 2003)

Im just trying to gather information and find the best type of toner to start off with. (something you could suggest to a beginner)

Im looking to into some of Edwals toners because I can get all different colors in a set. I dont know if they work well. (if there is a specific type of toner that works well, or a company that makes a good toner)

If you have a favorite process or toner that works well, thats what im looking for.

I'm not looking for any specific process just looking at my options in what some toners and processes have to offer before i buy anything.

I have no experience in doing this or have anyone that has done this type of thing before (when i asked if toning instructions are with the toner i just want to know if there is a data base for this where i can get information, so i can do it right)


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

one thing to keep in mind: a constant toner will produce different results on each type of paper. that said, i can speak to agfa, sterling (nla), luminos, oriental, and some other off brands. take the number of papers times the number of toners and i could write a volume. i will focus on agfa since that is my normal paper of choice.

agfa mcc rc in

selenium: for a nicely graded tone print, i typically use a 1:12 dilution at about 20c. times are somewhat irrelevant for asthetics as this is a room light wysiwyg process. for archival purposes, i tone to completion (about 7 minutes), but i rarely do it for total archival reasons. if i have a higher contrast print (grade 3+), i will usually use a 1:10 dilution at around 25c. this will hit the blacks hard and quickly. i can usually get away with a selenium tone on agfa with no apparent color shift, but sometimes it will move to a light lilac (kinda nice).

i really, really love to do sepia/blue split tones. the instructions for each are included in the packages. keep in mind that the sepia will grab the highlights first and the blue will hit all the values at the same time. for this reason, sepia tone first, then blue. 20c is just fine, though it makes no real difference. 

your 'color wheel' toners (blue, green, etc) will go after the entire print at once (from blacks to whites) while other toners start at either the blacks or whites and you can pull when the desired effect has been achieved. the only color toner i use is blue as it is quite versatile in splits. selenium/blue splits are also quite nice. 

if it were me, i'd stay away from the color toners, especially as a maiden venture. they work well in combination with selenium and sepia. 

my recommendation? selenium, sepia, and blue. you can get some excellent results individually and in combinations (splits). 

this is one on which i did a selenium/sepia split:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1424

any other questions, just post away.


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

crap; forgot the brands. long week of travel and an aging mind....


blue toner: i prefer berg, although i now mix my own.:

http://adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=details&sid=10627255135505570&sku=CHBBTQ

selenium toner: kodak. a little bit goes a long way. you can store the session dilution for quite some time:

http://adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=details&sid=10627255135505570&sku=KKRSTQ

sepia toner: kodak...i mix my own as well. again, mix and store for future use.

http://adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=details&sid=10627255135505570&sku=KKSTQ

i have nothing against edwal; i use edwal developers for 75% of my work, i just don't like their toners.


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## photoman (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks for that info  !!!

It was very helpful

The only other question i have is most of the toners are heavy metals and are toxic. 

How do you despose of the toner when your done with it?


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

you dump them down the drain. 

go here: 

http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msdssrch.asp

and look up the chemicals in the toners. then revisit the same sight and look up the chemicals in pine sol or any other household cleaner. pine sol will kill the family pet a light year quicker than selenium will. 

there is healthy paranoia and there is a paralyzing paranoia. the former understands and pursues, the latter assumes and stagnates.

just have fun. it's been safe for nearly a century.


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## photoman (Sep 4, 2003)

But i would worry if i dump it down the drain its probalby going to go into my drinking water!!!!!!!!  ale: i dont want that

Thanks for the info but ill find another way to despose of that


Thanks again for your help ill post if i have anymore questions (this should help others too when they read this  )


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## motcon (Sep 4, 2003)

make sure you don't clean the tub with tub cleaner that you bought in a store....or toilet with toilet cleaner...and don't use soap to wash your hands or body.....shaving cream will cause nasty diarrhea...hope no one colors hair in your house....

not sure how it would go into your drinking water unless you have a sewage/septic system circa 200 bc.

 whatever helps you sleep at night, i guess.

i'm sure you get the picture.


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## photoman (Sep 6, 2003)

Thanks for the info  .

I would like to thank you for all your help it was very insightful. 

And thank you for your time.

I just like to find out all the possible hazards and dangers before i start to work with anything so noting bad happens :shock: 


I just need a better ventilation system for my dark room so the fumes arent so bad and then ill start some toning.

Thank you again for all your help  !!!


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## andylou17 (Nov 16, 2004)

hi motcon, i don't really understand this part.


kodak fix process: 

develop paper -> how long? if i used kodak polymax developer for paper
5 seconds in an acetic acid bath 
~1:30 in fix (for how long?)

thanx


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## havoc (Nov 16, 2004)

Development is 2 minutes at 70 degrees f in polymax developer. 

The fix time is supposed to be 1 minute 30 seconds. 

Of course your real fix time depends on a bunch of variables. temp, water source, how much hardener etc.


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## havoc (Nov 16, 2004)

Motcon, i would love to see one of your sepia blue split tones. i have only alittle experiece with blue tone, but it seemed hard to work with because it worked so fast.


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## motcon (Nov 17, 2004)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Motcon, i would love to see one of your sepia blue split tones. i have only alittle experiece with blue tone, but it seemed hard to work with because it worked so fast.



i'll have a bunch this weekend; saturday is a print marathon day.


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## havoc (Nov 17, 2004)

Sounds good, would love to see em


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## motcon (Nov 21, 2004)

well, i ended up printing negs of a friend of mine. print time for me coming up; stay tuned.


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## havoc (Nov 22, 2004)

can't wait


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## Floyd (Nov 23, 2004)

your prints will end up shiity if your toning RC not FB, trust me FB has a far more stable effect and it's archival.  I've been taught never to tone RC.


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## motcon (Nov 23, 2004)

Floyd said:
			
		

> your prints will end up shiity if your toning RC not FB, trust me FB has a far more stable effect and it's archival.  I've been taught never to tone RC.



strange teacher you have.

toning (a post development process) chemically reacts with the silver, not the paper. 

the rc vs fb debate was over years ago and there is not a credible stitch of evidence that definitively points to rc or fb as being better than the other.


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