# Is it just me ?



## Dagwood56 (Apr 6, 2009)

I wasn't sure where to post this, but I guess here is as good a place as any and it in itself is probably going to start another argument, But here goes ---

Is it just me or are there suddenly far too many touchy people on the forum creating arguments where there need not be any? What happened to live and let live? Why is it that people seem to be jumping at the chance to start a verbal free for all wherever possible?

We're all here for the same basic reason - we like photography and would like to talk to others who share the same interest and to give those just beginning in photography some insight. Those people coming here to learn more are being "greeted" now with responses that imply 'I really don't want to be bothered' or that imply 'you are a complete idiot, I don't want to waste my time'. What happened to common courtesy, to politeness? 

So many of the member's responses come across as rude, blunt and downright nasty recently that its really no wonder that other members approach those responses with a bit of arrognace and resentment of their own and then BAM -fight time! 

I used to love coming here, and I enjoy an ocassional 'heated' discussion myself, whether it be to read or respond to it, but lately, coming here reminds me of the scenes in a moive - a person is on a ledge going to jump and instead of trying to talk that person down and help them, everyone is standing around yelling - Jump, jump, jump!

I think eveyone, including myself, should take step back and really examine WHY it is we all come here. Is it to argue, or is it to talk with others about photography? 

One final thing - what is with all the gun photos recently? Personally I find them quite disturbing. Couldn't those people posting such photos be asked to do so in some sort of sub-forum, rather then on the regular boards, or at the very least be required to say in the title "gun photos" so people who don't find it "cool" to stare down the barrel of a gun don't find themselves doing so because someone has just thrown it in with a few other photos they took? 

Thanks for listening.


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## JerryPH (Apr 6, 2009)

Meh... I have my ups and downs.  We're all entitled to vent a little, share a little and maybe even yell a little.  I read what I want, learn what I want, air what I want and then just move on.  When I feel that it is not fun coming here anymore, I stay away for a while.  If I feel this place has nothing to offer anymore (like many of the older or  original members), I will simply stop coming.

As for the gun photos... I don't see any, but then again, I stay away from the beginner's section.  That is one of the places that was frustrating me and making me nuts.  :mrgreen:


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## SrBiscuit (Apr 6, 2009)

i also have been finding some bickering on the forums as of late...but more than that, im finding the redundency of questions almost unbearable...
ive been debating avoiding the beginners forums all together like some do, but i find that to be disappointing because i fall into the beginner category i think.
i think it's been stated here before, but forums go thru this...it;s all part of the cycle. 

as far as gun photos go, if some really want to avoid them, then i dont think adding a keyword in the title is a bad idea...in fact, i think it's a good idea to add keywords across the board on all photo postings. personally, i like the gun photos, but i cant stand the photos of babies, and maternity, and flowers...so i feel your pain there dagwood. 

i may follow in jerry's footsteps and avoid the beginners section. what camera, whats HDR, how do i watermark...day after day.


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## fwellers (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm with SrBiscuit, I get tired  of baby photos. Yuk 
But that being said, I wouldn't wish for a rule or anything that limits or prevents them. 
So I think you should just move on if you see any photo, gun or otherwise, that you don't like. 
Sure, say something about it in the thread if you feel you must, but don't try and legislate against it. I despise that attitude. It makes me want to go take some pics of my revolver and post them. :er:


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## Mike_E (Apr 6, 2009)

Things come and go in cycles.  I've been a bit testy here of late myself, but I tend to get annoyed when people start making pronouncements about things they have not experienced or even considered.

As far as the beginner's section, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  People gravitate to it when they are first starting and go as far afield as their comfort level allows.  When they go on to other sections they revisit the ones that they have recently vacated and give back the information they have gained so that those sections continue to be self sustaining.

As to the guns, babies, pregnant women and pauses just remember that it's a great big world out there and there is still room for each of us to just step away.


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## JerryPH (Apr 6, 2009)

Problem is becuase no one is really doing much about it, that repetitiveness and severe misposting is now starting to gravitate into the Beyond the Basics section.  If I look at the most recent 30 threads, *maybe* 2 are supposed to be there.  Granted I have been guilty of doing that myself in the past, but I most seriously watch myself like a hawk lately and try to post in the relevant sections when creating a new thread.  I also do a search.

I wish there was an enforced personal protocol that people would follow:

- do a search, post in the relevent existing threads.
- look at the description of the section you are posting... post in the proper section

That would cut down on 75% of the schnootz that is happening lately.


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## Josh66 (Apr 6, 2009)

It could have something to do with the recent explosion in tobacco prices in the US.  A quantity of tobacco that used to cost me $10 costs $80 now...  (I'm quitting)

Could have something to do with it...?


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## craig (Apr 6, 2009)

I joined to argue and make people upset. I should also mention that I am the world's greatest photographer.

Love & Bass


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## abraxas (Apr 7, 2009)

craig said:


> I joined to argue and make people upset. I should also mention that I am the world's greatest photographer.
> 
> Love & Bass



I joined because you piss me off- And, as we both know, in the end, there can be only one.


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## craig (Apr 7, 2009)

Ahhh... There can be only one... He who has the most toys wins!

Love & Bass


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## DRoberts (Apr 7, 2009)

Avoiding the "Beginner's Section" won't go towards creating a strong forum. We need the more experienced photogs in there more regularly. I am an intermidiate photographer fairly new to the business aspect...and I am one of the oldest members that frequent the beginners forum. I understand the exhausting repeats of questions, but occasionally there are fresh questions that everyone would like to hear answers to...including myself. If you see a title that you don't want to comment to...don't open it and go on. 
To many people are blaming the new people who post these threads for their agravation, when its yourselves causing it by opening those threads and responding. Be selective rather than neglective, there are plenty of newer members like myself that don't mind repeating what you guys have for years until the next "generation" does it for us.
We come here for empowerment, and motivation...its a need we have...
From Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:
Esteem
All humans have a need to be respected, to have self-esteem, self-respect, and to respect. Also known as the belonging need, esteem presents the normal human desire to be accepted and valued by others. People need to engage themselves to gain recognition and have an activity or activities that give the person a sense of contribution, to feel accepted and self-valued, *be it in a profession or hobby*


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## abraxas (Apr 7, 2009)

craig said:


> Ahhh... There can be only one... He who has the most toys wins!
> 
> Love & Bass



Yes, wins,...  He who has the conch shall speak.

Anyway, back to the OT. 

Dagwood, it comes and goes in waves and cycles.  And we're all here for different reasons although the common thread is said to be photography.

I think for the most part the trick is to get what you want out of it, and when things get too stupid, find other sources to fulfill your wants and needs.


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## Torus34 (Apr 7, 2009)

I, for one, would be a tad surprised if there wasn't an increase in, for lack of a better term, 'edginess' in the body of folks who post here.

Economically, we're not as comfortable with where we are and where we're headed than we were a couple of years ago.  This has to transfer somehow to how we react to a lot of things.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

There are a lot of good points here, and I'll admit that my starting this topic did originate from a new members post on the beginners board, but it does seem to me that the excessive - lets say bluntness and superiority, in the way many members have been responding migrates to many of the other boards also, and that puts everyone on the defensive from the get go.  I agree with what *DRoberts* said : 

"Avoiding the "Beginner's Section" won't go towards creating a strong forum. We need the more experienced photogs in there more regularly. I am an intermidiate photographer fairly new to the business aspect...and I am one of the oldest members that frequent the beginners forum. I understand the exhausting repeats of questions, but occasionally there are fresh questions that everyone would like to hear answers to...including myself. If you see a title that you don't want to comment to...don't open it and go on. 
To many people are blaming the new people who post these threads for their agravation, when its yourselves causing it by opening those threads and responding. Be selective rather than neglective, there are plenty of newer members like myself that don't mind repeating what you guys have for years until the next "generation" does it for us.
We come here for empowerment, and motivation...its a need we have...
From Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:
Esteem
All humans have a need to be respected, to have self-esteem, self-respect, and to respect. Also known as the belonging need, esteem presents the normal human desire to be accepted and valued by others. People need to engage themselves to gain recognition and have an activity or activities that give the person a sense of contribution, to feel accepted and self-valued, *be it in a profession or hobby"*

To me, staying away from the boards for a while, as someone mentioned, really isn't going to solve the sudden increase in attitude problems for anyone. Yes, it might give me a breather, but the bickcering is still going to continue. I've been here awhile, and I've been at photography for awhile, but I'm new to the digital aspect and I don't do too well with photoshop, so I tend to migrate to the beginners board whether to seek help or give it. However, if I were coming here for the first time and was spoken to in the way many new members are spoken to now - I would probably get very discouraged, leave and not come back.

The gun photo issues: I was not saying people should not be allowed to post photos of what they like. I'm simply saying that gun photos would be better in a sub forum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds them disturbing. I don't care for looking at car, maternity and baby photos either and that is just my preference, but most of the those threads say what they are in the title and if they don't, its not "disturbing" its just a mild annoyance to find them in the thread. If I see "gun" in the thread title, of course, then I will not look at at that thread, but some people don't include "gun" in the title. Thats all I'm saying - feel free to post your gun photos, just tell in the title that they are there for those members who don't care to view them.


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## fwellers (Apr 7, 2009)

Dagwood56 said:


> The gun photo issues: I was not saying people should not be allowed to post photos of what they like. I'm simply saying that gun photos would be better in a sub forum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds them disturbing. I don't care for looking at car, maternity and baby photos either and that is just my preference, but most of the those threads say what they are in the title and if they don't, its not "disturbing" its just a mild annoyance to find them in the thread. If I see "gun" in the thread title, of course, then I will not look at at that thread, but some people don't include "gun" in the title. Thats all I'm saying - feel free to post your gun photos, just tell in the title that they are there for those members who don't care to view them.



Eh. Can't say I agree here either. I guess that me being a gun owner and also a smoker, am sensitive to other people classifying me and my actions, and either setting or trying to set restrictions on them. I resist all such attempts now. Even something as simple as what you said, asking for a warning in the thread title so that you don't have to look at my "offensive" gun, bothers me.
What else bothers you, snakes ? Should I put a warning on any snake content too ? How about hairy arms ? I remember on a wristwatch forum I participated in, there were those who took offense at wristshots that showed hairy arms. 

When does it end ?


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## bigtwinky (Apr 7, 2009)

As a relatively newcomer to both photography and these forums, I don't really notice a huge issue with attitudes.  I've been on posting forums for the better part of the last 15 years and each and every forum I have been on / modded, there are always the bad apples that just like to stir the **** and piss people off.

Might there be more than before?  Could be.  Photography is getting bigger, digital makes it more accessible, bla bla... so the more people you attract, the more potential bad apples you'll get.  But really, I don't find it worse or better than other forums I visit (photography and non)

I don't really frequent a particular section.  I usually just check the New Posts or use the Search function.  If I haven't been here in a while, then I might focus on some forum  more than another, but that really hasn't happened yet.  Some days there are 1,500 New Posts and I just get to the ones I get to.

I do try and post in the beginner section.  I'm not a pro, I don't even qualify myself as anything... I'm just learning.  If my 2 bit advise can help someone out, I'll post it.  If I see the same question 3 times in a row, I'll probably answer one of them, not all 3.

It is what it is.  

As Jerry said, I'll stick around as long as this place is interesting and fun to post in, which it has been.  When its not, I'll just stop coming.


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## JerryPH (Apr 7, 2009)

DRoberts said:


> Avoiding the "Beginner's Section" won't go towards creating a strong forum. We need the more experienced photogs in there more regularly.
> 
> To many people are blaming the new people who post these threads for their agravation, when its yourselves causing it by opening those threads and responding.



Respect is not a gift... it is earned.  To get it, you have to give it.  

Lack of respect to me, here, means being lazy and asking someone to answer your exact same question that has been asked and answered dozens of times over without searching for an immediate answer.  Where is the respect to all the users that have to wade through all of that day in and day out?

Reading and passing over threads.  We both know that this will not work for a couple reasons... first I still would be reading 75% or more of the posts that are repetitive and/or mundane and to know what each thread is about requires that the original poster use a proper title or header to properly identify it... again, something that a vast majority of the time is not very accurate or indicative of the thread content.

Teach newbies to use the search *and make it a point of courtesy to use it* *before posting*.  After so many years (perhaps more than a decade?) 95% of the questions asked in here on a daily basis are answered not once but several times over already.  Be a big boy or big girl and not be afraid to click on the search button... for a start.

The topic of obliging me to participate in the beginners section... why would I need to subject myself to something that would make my experience here near intolerable to me?  I would rather avoid one section and participate in other areas that I enjoy here, rather than need to read something that annoys me tremendously and pretty much would entice me to leave on a permanent basis within a very short time.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

abraxas said:


> Yes, wins,... He who has the conch shall speak.
> 
> Anyway, back to the OT.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the feedback.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks to all who responded. 

Also to the respondent above who I PM'd earlier today - and who has asked me not to PM them again and who called me a "cry baby, a second rate instigator by starting this thread, and a coward" for not arguing with them here on the forum - I feel I took the correct and the adult approach to the situation by not arguing with you here. And that's the last I have to say to you on this matter!


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## Chiller (Apr 7, 2009)

Being an 03er, I have seen a lot of changes here, along with the attitude, but then again, this place has gone from a small town to a big city. Even the change of owners reflect that. We used to have that small town mayor, now we have non existant senators, that just cash in on the $$$ they make from this place and could really give a rats A$$. It is sad really , cause we used to have some brilliant photographers here that were driven away by the " new " attitude of the forum, members and owners. Most have left for other more peaceful laid back forums or no forums at all. Yeah, it is possible to learn without the snotlings ruining every thread they post in with their ego-attitude replies. 
Me ? I have turned to to searching Google, and Youtube for tutorials. The chances of me posting any images here is....well...pretty slim, especially after a few comments I recieved...in the freekin Just For Fun gallery, which I was told by some "new" members should be for hobby photographers so they are not wasting time stroking egos, or signing a guestbook.(who the hell are you anyways)  This place is nothing but a joke now. 
As for guns....they are made to kill, and that only. If people are proud of their killing machines, and want to photograph them...fine. Maybe just post a warning for the more sensitive viewers. 

Bye.


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## Josh66 (Apr 7, 2009)

Dagwood56 said:


> Thanks to all who responded.
> 
> Also to the respondent above who I PM'd earlier today - and who has asked me not to PM them again and who called me a "cry baby, a second rate instigator by starting this thread, and a coward" for not arguing with them here on the forum - I feel I took the correct and the adult approach to the situation by not arguing with you here. And that's the last I have to say to you on this matter!



Wow, I don't know who the other party is (and it should probably stay that way), but it sounds like you're the more mature one...


Maybe I'm just not on here enough (can't imagine that, I _do_ spend too much time on here...), but I haven't really noticed whatever it is that is driving everyone away.  It is sad that we have lost a few people that I felt were some of the most knowledgeable people on here (Helen B comes to mind...), maybe I just haven't been looking at the right threads.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

Chiller said:


> Being an 03er, I have seen a lot of changes here, along with the attitude, but then again, this place has gone from a small town to a big city. Even the change of owners reflect that. We used to have that small town mayor, now we have non existant senators, that just cash in on the $$$ they make from this place and could really give a rats A$$. It is sad really , cause we used to have some brilliant photographers here that were driven away by the " new " attitude of the forum, members and owners. Most have left for other more peaceful laid back forums or no forums at all. Yeah, it is possible to learn without the snotlings ruining every thread they post in with their ego-attitude replies.
> Me ? I have turned to to searching Google, and Youtube for tutorials. The chances of me posting any images here is....well...pretty slim, especially after a few comments I recieved...in the freekin Just For Fun gallery, which I was told by some "new" members should be for hobby photographers so they are not wasting time stroking egos, or signing a guestbook.(who the hell are you anyways)  This place is nothing but a joke now.
> As for guns....they are made to kill, and that only. If people are proud of their killing machines, and want to photograph them...fine. Maybe just post a warning for the more sensitive viewers.
> 
> Bye.


 
Thanks for your response Chiller. I know I've become reluctant to post photos here. I used to post stuff when I first joined and then i was away from the board for a year and when I returned it was Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde! And yes,:thumbup: that would be fine with me in regard to the gun photos, just a simple acknowledgement in the title so someone who is bothered by looking down the barrel of a gun doesn't have to do it. 

Thanks again for your response.


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## sleepingdragon (Apr 7, 2009)

I have definetly found many touchy people on this forum. I try to stick to another I forum I go to for most advice. There are many nice folks here but sometimes it just takes a couple of insensitive people to ruin it. 

Chiller please post more of your beautiful pictures, many of us here really enjoy them.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> Wow, I don't know who the other party is (and it should probably stay that way), but it sounds like you're the more mature one...
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just not on here enough (can't imagine that, I _do_ spend too much time on here...), but I haven't really noticed whatever it is that is driving everyone away. It is sad that we have lost a few people that I felt were some of the most knowledgeable people on here (Helen B comes to mind...), maybe I just haven't been looking at the right threads.


 
There are a lot of people who I don't see on here anymore, and many who only appear now and then, and it is sad....
Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 7, 2009)

sleepingdragon said:


> I have definetly found many touchy people on this forum. I try to stick to another I forum I go to for most advice. There are many nice folks here but sometimes it just takes a couple of insensitive people to ruin it.
> 
> Chiller please post more of your beautiful pictures, many of us here really enjoy them.


 
I made note of all the other forums people go to from a thread posted somewhere on here the other day and I think I may look into some of them...

Thaks for responding.


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## kundalini (Apr 7, 2009)

Chiller said:


> Most have left for other more peaceful laid back forums or no forums at all. Yeah, it is possible to learn without the snotlings ruining every thread they post in with their ego-attitude replies.


 


O|||||||O said:


> Maybe I'm just not on here enough (can't imagine that, I _do_ spend too much time on here...), but I haven't really noticed whatever it is that is driving everyone away.


See quote above. 

The attitude isn't just recent, been going on for a while, but with the new changes to TPF, it certainly hasn't improved. And it doesn't seem to bother the new owners.




Dagwood56 said:


> I know I've become reluctant to post photos here.


I started *this thread* as half of a laugh, but mostly out of frustration. A time may come that I retract my thoughts, but for the time being, I won't.  What is troubling is that most people thought I was stomping my foot and leaving the forum altogether.

Gun photos don't bother me except when it's accompanied with that stupid 'king attitude. I do like the craftsmanship involved with its manufacture.


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## Dweller (Apr 7, 2009)

kundalini said:


> but with the new changes to TPF, it certainly hasn't improved. And it doesn't seem to bother the new owners.



They would have to look here once in a while to notice. I pretty much suspected it would go down just the way it has. They come in acting as if they have interest in learning about the subject, the members and the culture of this forum, throw up some new paint and then sit back and start pimping the traffic numbers so they can make as much money as possible from it while they move on to the next forum and pretend they are interested in underwater basket weaving or whatever the topic of the next victim is.

I miss the old TPF (when Chase ran it) and I miss a lot of the names we do not see around here anymore. That is not a knock on the new names, we have some helpful and talented people here but this place is a shell of what attracted me to it in the first place.

RIP TPF.


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## Joves (Apr 7, 2009)

craig said:


> I joined to argue and make people upset. I should also mention that I am the world's greatest photographer.
> 
> Love & Bass


 Uncle Ken is that you?
Yeah I do notice at time people do seem a tad testy.I havent been here as mauch as I was due to work and, getting stuck on sodahead sometimes. I try to keep my venting there. But alot of it is many times the questions have been answered and, I really have nothing to add.


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## JE Kay (Apr 7, 2009)

:lmao: I love forums..... Nothing brings out the complete _loser_ in people that are, well surprise surprise _total_ losers in real life.

I love the people who feel it's their job or duty to mod every post in every thread on photography forums, it's especially hilarious because most of these morons work in retail where they probably annoy the hell out of everyone they work with and customers refer to them as ignorant know-it-all ass-heads, usually right to their faces. 

Well I guess if this place has fallen to sh@t it won't be long before I delete it and move on. I don't know anyone here so I don't really care. 

_Chiller, if there's somewhere you hang online that isn't a pissing contest all the time where post you work let me know. I'd gladly drop by, it's nice to meet someone who says it like it is and produces awesome work as well. Cheers.._. :thumbup:


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## kundalini (Apr 7, 2009)

kundalini said:


> I started *this thread* as half of a laugh, but mostly out of frustration. A time may come that I retract my thoughts, but for the time being, I won't.


 Ooops, I forgot one exception......

Now that the *UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA TARHEELS* have won the NCAA championship, Fight Club is back on the table for Sundays.   :lmao:


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## LuckySo-n-So (Apr 7, 2009)

kundalini said:


> Ooops, I forgot one exception......
> 
> Now that the *UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA TARHEELS* have won the NCAA championship,  :lmao:


 
Your team?

They really put an ass-whooping on my LSU Tigers in the 2nd Round.

After that game, I could not see ANYONE beating them.  Damn Lawson.  Damn Ellington.  Freakin' Hansbrough. :banghead:

Congrats--UNC was in a class by itself the past two weeks.  :bow:


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## JerryPH (Apr 7, 2009)

There is a difference between the attitude of people that try to mod and people that see a valid problem and present a valid solution.  

Perhaps if people cared a little more, maybe they would be concerned about trying to make it a better place instead of saying that they don't know anyone and don't really care if they stay or not?  Just a thought.

In 1987 a group of us created a car club.  It went right to 2006 when we elected a very poor president that thought that he now owned all rights to the domain and dropped membership fees, opened the doors to some real looser members and basically took 3 months to totally lose control and destroy what we worked hard to build over 19 years.  A small group of us broke away and made a small tight private club and things have been going well for over 2 years and show no sign of letting up.  We're up to a meager 590 members, but considering the tight focus and prerequisites of the club, thats not a bad number of people to have in as high a quality of a group as we are very lucky to have.  Control is very tight and standards are pushed to the max.  This doesn't detract one bit from the incredible quality of people and the fun that we have when we assemble for group functions.

  Most clubs will get to the point that they hit a pinnacle, then drop very fast and the only thing that will forstall or prevent this is a strong leadership.

Let's hope this club has strong leadership, else it too will suffer.  There are some good people here... the administrative staff as well as members.


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## photogincollege (Apr 7, 2009)

I agree that there are still very good people here.  And I don't think it will ever get REALLY bad.  The mods are pretty good about taking care of problem threads and people before they really get out of hand.  I think this forum will continue to go well for quite awhile.


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## Ejazzle (Apr 7, 2009)

I love this forum. It isnt the most "active" forum. But it helps a lot *cough* jerry *cough*  lol But most people on here are in most situations a big help. I honestly haven't seen that much hostility on this forum at all. You should see some skateboarding forums. Everyone over there helps and pokes fun at eachother at the same time and no one gets butt hurt over it. 

theinternetisseriousbusiness.com 

and it sounds like some people need to just go take some pictures


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## DRoberts (Apr 7, 2009)

Now I know alot of coments are made with no intent of angering anyone, but absent tone and inflection, straight forward honest statements that were made per request. This is also a geographic downfall, each culture uses its own version of any given language. What I say in my hometown without offending anyone could very well deeply offend someone from another town, state, or country.
Alot of it could be alieviated by newcomers not taking everything that is said to heart. To them I say...you post a picture to a public forum and ask for opinions you are going to get opinions. You have to be adult enough to take the jits just as well as the praise. People who disaprove of your work will usually tell you why...a very good way to pick up ideas. Instead of veiwing this as an insult, look at it as a learning tool. You gain demographic data as well for your style. 

JERRY! - I respect your sentiment but I must disagree on the coment about respect. I believe your statement is based on the glass half empty perspective. I believe respect is inherent to everyone and is there to be raised or lost, rather than absent and to be earned.


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## abraxas (Apr 8, 2009)

abraxas said:


> Yes, wins,...  He who has the conch shall speak.
> 
> Anyway, back to the OT.
> 
> ...





Dagwood56 said:


> Thanks for the feedback.



I didn't mean to be so terse and cold in my response as it probably reads. 'It' does come and go- so when it's here, ...  do other stuff.  Lately, for the most part, it's here.  So I'm putting more effort into my development rather than paying so much attention to the what-not.


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## Arch (Apr 8, 2009)

Well, im not a site owner of course so i cannot speak for them, i can only give you an honest opinion of some the points made in this thread.

There seems to be the 'all doom and gloom' attitude and that TPF has gone to the dogs.... well i honestly don't believe that... and i do respect many of you that have that opinion, but my outlook is just from a different perspective.

You will always have people you admire leaving forums, if its for work, lifestyle, new commitments... whatever. It is sad when things start to change but such is life.
The internet (and forums such as this in particular) is changing and will continue to change. This is mainly to do with what photography means to people nowadays.

Go back to 2001 for example... i had a top of the range digital POS.... it was 2mp and cost £480.00 i was at Art college at the time.
Real photographers either still preferred film or had one of the early DSLR's... so for many years after it was still a hobby for people that are serious about photography, and more importantly *with a hunger to learn*.

And now?... with 10mp POS for £40... Easily affordable DSLR's... 4mp phone camera's.... Myspace, Facebook... Photography isn't just for _photographers_ anymore. Its for anyone who wants quick answers... and within weeks or months of getting answers suddenly becomes a short tempered 'know it all' who likes to offer dodgy advice to noobs 

This is why you may find some threads around which you wouldn't have found a few years ago... its just the way photography has developed and attracted all types of people of all ages. 

But guys, this isn't such a bad thing... the people who really know their stuff, still know their stuff, and should feel confident in the knowledge they have gained. If you think someone is being short or rude and with no justifiable reason... just sit back (or report them to the mods ) and don't let it stress you.
Some will want the quick answers and leave, some will keep pushing their hobby forward using a forum such as this, and become excellent photographers.

I predict (and did a few years ago) that these type of things will be even more regular as time and accessibility to photography grows.
Imagine a new scenario... take computer game programming. I don't know this but i bet there are a few forums where some like minded people share their knowledge and skill to help each other with thier technical problems... its probably a small forum as TPF once was.
Now, lets say by 2010 some software comes out which makes creating games easier... much easier, all you need to know is a few of the basics before you can go off and make your own game.... what do you think would happen to that forum? Take something as popular as photography and you have your answer!

So can you really blame TPF?... or the owners which despite not participating much, have still left us to run free and carry on as we please?... they haven't restrained us in anyway.

I have always been a firm believer of the phrase 'you get out what you put in' .... so to say things are bad around here but then not be willing to contribute is kind of defeatist. A forum IS its members... not its layout or the technicality of who its owned by.

Lastly, i really hope that people want to stay at this forum. We have always (because of Chase's awesome work) been Google optimized and will therefore attract people of all skill levels and mentality.... but personally i think its half the fun of the internet and the more diverse we are, the more interest we have in images and different types of people.


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## JerryPH (Apr 8, 2009)

DRoberts said:


> JERRY! - I respect your sentiment but I must disagree on the coment about respect. I believe your statement is based on the glass half empty perspective. I believe respect is inherent to everyone and is there to be raised or lost, rather than absent and to be earned.



I can respect that opinion without needing to agree or disagree. :mrgreen:


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## Dweller (Apr 8, 2009)

Arch said:


> I have always been a firm believer of the phrase 'you get out what you put in' .... so to say things are bad around here but then not be willing to contribute is kind of defeatist. A forum IS its members... not its layout or the technicality of who its owned by.



I agree with most of what you said, but a forum is a special beast that your phrase does not always apply too. In this case the owners get what the members put in. A forum is built on the backs of its members and as such I feel owners should be ACTIVE participants that nurture the environment and the member base. We had that. We no longer have that.

Chase built the foundation but the members built the house. Now we have new owners that seem more interested in putting billboards in the yard than coming in to visit.


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## guitarkid (Apr 8, 2009)

this is a good topic. i actually left for a bit sometime last year due to the terrible attacks. no matter what was posted, there was always some idiot lurking to let you know how much better they are than you. photographers are more touchy for some reason. 

i'm here to learn and view nice photos. i know there are better than me out there, and worse, that's what makes the world different. i agree with the whole, give respect to get respect thing, but that doesn't mean you have to kiss up to be heard. there is such a thing as common courtesy. all businesses are cut-throat, and photo sites are among the worst overall. video forums not so much, in fact, quite the opposite, and guitar / music forums, the best, most helpful. of course, it depends which ones you go to, but this is the overall rule i have seen.

it has been much better here this new year, in my opinion. this site we are currently on has been much more enjoyable than say, 9 months to 1 year ago. seems like most of the bad people are gone.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 8, 2009)

kundalini said:


> See quote above.
> 
> The attitude isn't just recent, been going on for a while, but with the new changes to TPF, it certainly hasn't improved. And it doesn't seem to bother the new owners.
> 
> ...


 
YOU are one of the people I noticed was not around much when I returned the forum last fall, and I missed seeing your work. Checked out your thread and I love the bee - beautiful shot!


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 8, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> There is a difference between the attitude of people that try to mod and people that see a valid problem and present a valid solution.
> 
> Perhaps if people cared a little more, maybe they would be concerned about trying to make it a better place instead of saying that they don't know anyone and don't really care if they stay or not? Just a thought.


 
:thumbup: I Agree


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## leighthal (Apr 8, 2009)

It saddens me to see people step away from this forum. I just started figuring out which end is which on my camera. 
Maybe you haven't heard it yet, the proverbial pat on the back.... so here it is.

Thank you for teaching me. I regularily read every post, view every photo, play the fun contests, and view member sites. If you ceased to post pictures due to a few bad comments you are robbing some of us with the very thing that is teaching us to get better. I learn more reading the data and composition of a photo than any comment out there.

 Even the people who rub me the wrong way because I think they have egos or attitude can teach me through their photos. When I get bad form on a critic (good form being a:compliment the good-- b:disect the bad-- c:follow with positive encouragement) I tend to chalk it up to people just being knobs and move on. It has never discouraged me from posting again because some people have interesting things to say.

In regards to repeat questions, one of the reasons people visit forums is to interact with someone more knowledgable than themselves. It is quite easy to search google for answers but nothing beats that one on one you get with those whos work you admire. Instead of getting the groans from it take it as a compliment. It is appreciated.

*What I learned from some of you:
_Jerry_ taught me to give up auto permently. I still think he needs to take a chill pill with auto users but he did have good points as well..... lesson learned
_Chiller _taught me that a good photo trancends subject. If he can make something ugly that beautiful there is hope for my snapshots turning into photographs.
_Laphoto_ taught me about water drops.
_Anty_ taught me about composition. In a lesson to someone else I learned some tricks to make my photos better.

The list could go on and on.... now imagine if you all didn't post photos or respond to posters._ sigh_ I'd still be taking pictures totally centered and relying on auto.

Thanks again.


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## JerryPH (Apr 8, 2009)

leighthal said:


> _Jerry_ taught me to give up auto permently. I still think he needs to take a chill pill with auto users but he did have good points as well.....



Took a double dose this morning... oh wait, that was either a double dose of Viagra, laxative or sleeping tablets.  I'll wait a while and see what comes up.


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## Dagwood56 (Apr 8, 2009)

abraxas said:


> I didn't mean to be so terse and cold in my response as it probably reads. 'It' does come and go- so when it's here, ... do other stuff. Lately, for the most part, it's here. So I'm putting more effort into my development rather than paying so much attention to the what-not.


 
You got lost in the shuffle , I meant to respond to this earlier and got side tracked. I didn't think your response was terse - just to the point. Perhaps now that warm weather is coming to my neck of the woods I can get out more and spend less time, as you say, paying attention to the what-not.


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## skieur (Apr 8, 2009)

DRoberts said:


> Now I know alot of coments are made with no intent of angering anyone, but absent tone and inflection, straight forward honest statements that were made per request. This is also a geographic downfall, each culture uses its own version of any given language. What I say in my hometown without offending anyone could very well deeply offend someone from another town, state, or country.
> Alot of it could be alieviated by newcomers not taking everything that is said to heart. To them I say...you post a picture to a public forum and ask for opinions you are going to get opinions. You have to be adult enough to take the jits just as well as the praise. People who disaprove of your work will usually tell you why...a very good way to pick up ideas. Instead of veiwing this as an insult, look at it as a learning tool. You gain demographic data as well for your style.



I tend to agree. Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality.  Very basic is that what you see with your eyes does NOT necessarily make a good photograph whether you appreciate that fact or not.  If you are posting in a forum, the assumption is that you are past your own personal opinion, and looking for a more objective consensus of the quality of your work as well as for suggestions for improvement.  If you get that objective consensus and feel insulted then you need to reassess your photos.  If you are giving false praise under the guise of encouragement, then you need to reassess your critique and its possible negative consequences.

skieur


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## clarinetJWD (Apr 20, 2009)

skieur said:


> I tend to agree. Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality.  Very basic is that what you see with your eyes does NOT necessarily make a good photograph whether you appreciate that fact or not.  If you are posting in a forum, the assumption is that you are past your own personal opinion, and looking for a more objective consensus of the quality of your work as well as for suggestions for improvement.  If you get that objective consensus and feel insulted then you need to reassess your photos.  If you are giving false praise under the guise of encouragement, then you need to reassess your critique and its possible negative consequences.
> 
> skieur


Absolutely, it's one thing to be offended by honest and constructive opinions, and that's a bit of a problem.  It's a whole different thing when the opinions are presented in an almost vicious manner.  True, it's hard to convey tone online, but it is more than possible to make advice friendly and helpful.  (I'm not talking about you at all, just adding to your points.  Yes, you need to be able to take criticism, but there also needs to be less rudeness.)


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## chris82 (Apr 20, 2009)

clarinetJWD said:


> Absolutely, it's one thing to be offended by honest and constructive opinions, and that's a bit of a problem. It's a whole different thing when the opinions are presented in an almost vicious manner. True, it's hard to convey tone online, but it is more than possible to make advice friendly and helpful. (I'm not talking about you at all, just adding to your points. Yes, you need to be able to take criticism, but there also needs to be less rudeness.)


 
100%! Its not hard to tell someone that a photo they have taken is not a good one in a positive way,Point out there mistakes and give them advice on how to improve. I myself left the forum about two years ago because there were more insults than criticism(bad spelling).Telling someone that there photo sucks and they should fnd a new hobby is not constructive or if someone asks how do I do that and some one replies ever heard of google, Then that defeats the purpose of coming to a forum for help in the first plce! Dosent it?

I know that sometimes people post up these comments in a witty fashion and thats ok if the person on the reciving end has been here a while and knows what to expect I mean theres nothing wrong with a bit of banter but if the person is new we have to be more like teachers than friends at first.

I have also noticed a drop in traffic scince I was last an active member in the forum. I mean when I was here last there were in ecess of 200 members online at any given time sometimes 3 or 400 members,Now it seems the forum is peaking at around 60 or 70 users.


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## Mersad (Apr 20, 2009)

I am relatively new here, and since i joined i have learned so much from you guys. I agree this forum should consist of "teachers" so to speak. But as many of you have already mentioned offering critique and being rude are two different things. I think it should be mentioned that there are still a lot of good photographers on here who know how to correct you and give you advice so that you feel like you have been taught and not looked down upon (as i have witnessed).

Still you get the "stupid" comment from time to time, where there isn't anything offered really. I had some bad experience when it turned into something personal. But the admins are here to take care of that. My advice is: don't let yourself down over "bad" comments, and take the useful ones and learn. I know i have, and in my opinion it has made me a better photographer. 

So thanks again to the "teachers"! :hug::


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## skieur (Apr 21, 2009)

Mersad said:


> I am relatively new here, and since i joined i have learned so much from you guys. I agree this forum should consist of "teachers" so to speak. But as many of you have already mentioned offering critique and being rude are two different things. I think it should be mentioned that there are still a lot of good photographers on here who know how to correct you and give you advice so that you feel like you have been taught and not looked down upon (as i have witnessed).
> 
> Still you get the "stupid" comment from time to time, where there isn't anything offered really. I had some bad experience when it turned into something personal. But the admins are here to take care of that. My advice is: don't let yourself down over "bad" comments, and take the useful ones and learn. I know i have, and in my opinion it has made me a better photographer.
> 
> So thanks again to the "teachers"! :hug::



I understand what you are saying, but it is unrealistic to expect all experienced photographers to have great people skills, diplomatic language skills, and teaching ability.  Complaints always mention the extremes of "This photo sucks.", etc. but I often wonder whether the true issues are over clear and precise statements related to framing, over-exposure, lack of detail in shadow areas, poor composition, colour balance, sharpness, and technical issues which are important.  To characterize this kind of statement as rude implies a problem with the acceptance of clear critique by the original poster.

skieur


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## suki (Apr 22, 2009)

Wow, what a thread!

Well, being a newb to photography AND to this board I'd like to make a few points, or remarks to points made.

Babies/Maternity/Flowers/Pets - All are posted by newbs, right? why do you think that is? It's simple, most people that are just starting off in photography start with the basics. For most, including myself, it was landscapes and bugs in macro, then with the arrival of our youngest, baby pictures. Why? Because it's easy, it's a good starting point to learn your capabilities and to toy around with. composition does not come naturally to all, and so you tend to see alot of the same pictures over and over with the new comers. Annoying? yes, i'm sure it's annoying to those that have been in the hobby/business for x amount of years, but i'm sure you can take a moment to reflect on your earlier days and when you started out. 

Regarding newbs and the desire to avoid them, I always find it amusing, humorous really, the attitude that experienced people take towards the newcomer in ANY hobby. I used to ride sportbikes and currently am part of a 4 wheeling group/community. And in both, i noticed that the "older" crowd usually doesn't want to have anything to do with the newbs. And i find that frustrating from a newbs point of view because I join forums like this to LEARN from those that are BETTER and more EXPERIENCED than I am. I can learn from trial and error, but for example. I've had my Canon rebel xs for 2 weeks and until the other night when I read a thread on this forum, could not figure out the meaning or results between changing my shutter speed and aperture (sp). I googled, I read, i asked my photog friend, and it just wasn't sticking. Someone made a very good post and it clicked, just like that and now my shots are more in focus with the background out of focus.

I've posted an intro on the main intro thread and have received one welcome, i've also posted in the beginners forum an intro and a c&c and have not received one word/post from anyone. It's not a big deal, I figure i need to establish my "place" being a new comer to show that i'm serious and not here to waste anyone's time. Now maybe it's because i posted in an area that is shunned, lol! 

As i've said, over and over, i'm new. I like taking shots of my 6 month old because he is my inspiration and muse for photography at this point. As i become more educated on techniques, composition, and just having a good eye, then i'm sure i will expand to more exciting pictures that will please the elders. Until then, I hope to not bore too many of you with my plain, over shot, redundant novice pictures..... /sarcasm


One last thing, the internet is a place for everyone to flex their virtual muscles, take what people say with less than a grain of salt, or sand.. or whatever.


EDIT:
Also, i just did a search for topics related to lighting positioning and got 388 results. that's alot to weed through. Sometimes Search can be just as big as a PITA as just asking. lol, thats all.


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## btouringkr (Apr 22, 2009)

suki said:


> One last thing, the internet is a place for everyone to flex their virtual muscles, take what people say with less than a grain of salt, or sand.. or whatever.



I think this sums it up. All around, people need to be able to detach from any drama in the threads here, because it might just be the other person's problem and not yours.

As for this forum, I haven't been around enough to notice the drama, but I have noticed that there are several experienced members who aren't afraid to be very opinionated. That can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing, in certain situations. For any community to thrive, new members who are willing to learn need to be integrated.


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## JE Kay (Apr 22, 2009)

> Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality.



You're assuming the newcomer is not an experienced photographer. ;-) Just razzin' you. 

But it's true, just because someone is new here doesn't mean they are new to photography or the business of photography, which are two _hugely_ different things.


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## sxesweets (Apr 25, 2009)

suki said:


> EDIT:
> Also, i just did a search for topics related to lighting positioning and got 388 results. that's alot to weed through. Sometimes Search can be just as big as a PITA as just asking. lol, thats all.


 
This is what gets me when I search a subject the first 100 (or more) results are just posts telling me to search the subject because it's been answered so many times


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## JerryPH (Apr 25, 2009)

sxesweets said:


> This is what gets me when I search a subject the first 100 (or more) results are just posts telling me to search the subject because it's been answered so many times



Thats my pet peeve.  When you have been here more than a month and start to read the same 100 posts over and over and over... I just grind my teeth a lot.

General comment not directed at you, sxesweets just at all people that ***** and whine after being told to use the search:

People that join and post without using the search are not interested in maximizing their learning, they want to be spoon fed and that "gimme an answer now, I do not care about the fact if 100 people before me asked the same question in the last month, received the SAME answer I will be getting nor that I could get answers to my questions faster than it takes for me to post the question... because I am lazy".  

That attitude that gets to me like NOTHING else.

To avoid that, I refuse to even visit the beginners section anymore... and that helped for a while, but now that is starting to happen in the other areas where I do participate.  I could easily see this pushing me and the other more experienced participants away... because the "newbies" who are told to do a search get all offended and raise a stink... often raising MORE of a stink responding to being told to do a search than researching what they SHOULD have been in the first place!

Don't be lazy and do take a mature responsibility about your photography edification.  A search is not a bad thing... if it was, the people who put it there would remove it.

Try it, you'll like it... and likely learn MORE in the end than you expected.  It worked for me, and it worked for thousands of others.  It *will* work for you.  All it takes is not being lazy.

If that doesn't work for you, the alternative is that we should suggest that the board gets wiped once a year and we can then all start all over, AGAIN asking the same questions... but this time, read them once, instead of over and over and over.  Of course I was not being serious about this last paragraph, however it does make a valid point... the info is here.  We have people that have posts in the 10s, 20s and even 30 thousands!!  You do NOT get that level without writing SOMETHING beneficial to someone that is new here, but the new ones with this attitude won't EVER see this... because they are too busy whining about being told to do a search.

I am an advanced amateur.  When I first got here 2 years ago, I barely knew the basics of ISO, shutter and aperture.  *EACH AND EVERY* question I had from that day *CONTINUING* * NOW* had an answer here.  If it was not here (perhaps 10 questions in 2 years), a 30 second google found me the answer.  I will throw up the challenge again... find me **2* posts* in my near 5000 where I asked questions... you will not find them.  Why?  Because I did not need to ask them... because the answer was here already!  I was not lazy to search.

Photography has been around for hundreds of years.  This forum has been here for years as well.  I would say that 99% of most newbie and intermediate level questions have an answer here.  "oh but if I cannot post my question, what *are* we supposed to post?"  If you cannot find anything to post about that is not contributing to the board and/or your edification... try this on for size... don't post!!  Go shoot your camera, which is what photography *IS* about, and fall into situations that are worthy of being posted about and are not under the "what camera / what lens / what is  ISO, shutter, aperture / what should I spend my money on / what is the difference between / what end of a camera do I look into" mode of questions.  These are all questions that have answers in *NAUSEATING DETAIL* over and over and are available to you WITHOUT needing to ask here, and if not here then a simple google search away.


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## sxesweets (Apr 25, 2009)

JerryPH said:


> Thats my pet peeve. When you have been here more than a month and start to read the same 100 posts over and over and over... I just grind my teeth a lot.
> 
> General comment not directed at you, sxesweets just at all people that ***** and whine after being told to use the search


 
Thanks for not directing that at me, it totally wasn't intended as a "*****" persay just an observation  

I stopped bothering to post my questions, I search things now and if I can't find an answer or just find posts telling me to search it I don't bother posting my question I just go google things or ask at the local camera store. Was giving it some thought last night and I think the reason I still visit here is to see the critiques of others work so that I can at least learn a bit from that. 

**Not directed at anyone** 
An easy solution to the "begginer questions would be an application process to be a member, so basically a private board. In that situation you really could/would have grounds to chew someone out for asking a "stupid" question. Or maybe just get rid of the beginner section so that they have to go out and shoot photos until they run into a problem that isn't begginer.


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## JE Kay (Apr 25, 2009)

> Yeah I unfortunately know a poor D200 which never found it's way out of ProgramAuto mode. I think every time someone clicks the shutter on that thing god kills a kitten.



I know this has nothing to do with this thread, it's just every time I read that I start laughing out loud, it's sooooo hilarious. :lmao:


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## Mersad (Apr 27, 2009)

skieur said:


> I understand what you are saying, but it is unrealistic to expect all experienced photographers to have great people skills, diplomatic language skills, and teaching ability.  Complaints always mention the extremes of "This photo sucks.", etc. but I often wonder whether the true issues are over clear and precise statements related to framing, over-exposure, lack of detail in shadow areas, poor composition, colour balance, sharpness, and technical issues which are important.  To characterize this kind of statement as rude implies a problem with the acceptance of clear critique by the original poster.
> 
> skieur



Of course, comments over framing, exposure, etc. (if they are done wrong), are not rude. I never said that. There are other kinds of comments. I'm usually the kind of person who takes criticism well, even though you won't find a person who likes it. It just comes with the territory. 

Also being polite doesn't come from having diplomatic language skills, and teaching abilities. It's a about common manners.


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## suki (Apr 27, 2009)

I think one solution to eliminate alot of the basic/repetitive questions is to post a sticky in the beginners forum covering some of the basics. Something along the lines of "New to photograph? Check out some of the FAQ's to get you started" Or a simple "Read Me FIRST!" will most likely draw them into that thread first, and even if they DO post up before reading that thread, then atleast they can be directed there instead of being told "do a search you lazy jerk, I've already answered that question months ago." lol

I don't get offended or irritated from either ends, if I can't find it on my own, i'll ask. And if that irritates someone, then they have to choice to a) not read my post b) not answer c) tell me to do a search or d) answer the question

If I've been at something for a while and have developed my skills and knowledge and someone posts up a question that I just answered 10 times, it's not a big deal to me. I'll either answer it or direct them to the other thread.

That is exactly HOW i found this forum in the first place was by doing google searches for information, reading other sites, articles, etc before I stumbled on here. I still google for information when I need to, run a search on here or if someone has posted a thread and I like something in there, I'll ask in that thread how they did it.

Anyhow, that's my take on it.


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## Inigo Montoya (May 4, 2009)

Dagwood56 said:


> Is it just me or are there suddenly far too many touchy people on the forum creating arguments where there need not be any? What happened to live and let live?
> Thanks for listening.



Don't worry, its just that time of year with spring time  hormones and allergy's going crazy in the majority of the US yet.


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## Inigo Montoya (May 4, 2009)

sxesweets said:


> This is what gets me when I search a subject the first 100 (or more) results are just posts telling me to search the subject because it's been answered so many times




The search engines V Bulletin forums  use are not so great.

like if you do a search with more than one word like "macro photography" it will find every thread that has the word macro or photography. So you have to scan through 20 pages of some thread to find 2 sentences about  the word macro. 

It would be kind of interesting know to how many of the people who say " use the search", actually use a the v Bulletin search or even successfully.

I htink more or less its people who  just have to have the last word in.


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## kf_chris (May 5, 2009)

Ok, I read this and I'm totally new here BUT I do have an opinion.  I frequent a jeep forum and there are sticky's on threads or issues that are always covered.  So.  Could there be something in the different areas of this forum regarding something like that? 
"What's a good first DSLR?" 
"Basics about photoshop for new users"
"I've gotten decent with my entry level DSLR/SLR and I want to step up...what's good for me?"
I'm sure the members who have been around a while know many many more that could be listed.

These, to me as a beginner, seem like threads that I would go to and read if they were at the top of the forum for beginners, or the editing/program area here for the photoshop thread.  

And about people getting snippy, it's a sad reality...people use the computers to hide behind and say things they maybe normally wouldn't in real life.  I use this rule, if I wouldn't say it to someone's face in a normal convo then I shouldn't type it and hit the "Post Quick Reply" button.


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## Cat nt Tat's Dusky (May 12, 2009)

JE Kay said:


> :lmao: I love forums..... Nothing brings out the complete _loser_ in people that are, well surprise surprise _total_ losers in real life.
> 
> I love the people who feel it's their job or duty to mod every post in every thread on photography forums, it's especially hilarious because most of these morons work in retail where they probably annoy the hell out of everyone they work with and customers refer to them as ignorant know-it-all ass-heads, usually right to their faces.
> 
> ...


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