# Looking to start photo business, need some help



## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

I've been doing a lot of shoots lately. I started out doing free shoots with models from Model Mayhem to build their portfolios and mine. So far it's been working pretty good. However, now that I've got some good experience, I would like to start charging and make this more of a business, but I'm running into a few problems:

1. What are some cost-effective ways to attract new clients and get the word out? I've done some advertisements on craigslist and facebook, but haven't really got any hits on doing shoots.

2. Pricing. Whenever I describe my pricing to someone, it seems to turn them off to the idea of shooting completely. I don't think my pricing is bad for what they get, but for some reason I have lots of problems landing paid gigs.

I would love to start doing this to earn extra income and upgrade my gear a bit, but these two issues are really holding me back. Any insight from the professionals out there?

Thanks!


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

What is your pricing? it is hard to comment on that when we don't know what it is.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry, here is my sample pricing. Since I do a lot of modeling shoots, this is tailored more towards the modeling audience.

Package 1  $550 
4-6 Hour Shoot 
2 creative photographers 
Professional Makeup Artist 
50 professionally printed comp cards 
50-60 web resolution images on a disc 
Online gallery for proofing/ordering 

Package 2  $325 
3 hours shooting time 
2 8x10s of your choice 
11x14 of your choice 
50 "mini" rep cards 
20 web resolution photos on a disc 
Online gallery for proofing/ordering 

Package 3  $200 
2 hours shooting time 
2 8x10s of your choice 
25 "mini" rep cards 
Online gallery for proofing/ordering 

Package 4  $75 
1 hour shooting time 
8x10 photo of your choice 
Online gallery for proofing/ordering


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## KmH (Oct 12, 2009)

What kind of background do you have in business, marketing, and sales?

85% of the skill needed for running a photography business is business/marketing/sales skill. 15% is about your skill as a photographer.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

I have a little bit of knowledge. I'm not a professional, but I have a little experience. I guess the point of this post was to gain some insight and hopefully receive pointers to improve my response rate/bookings. I'm interested in hearing how others have gotten responses that translated into shoots.


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

OK, well looking at your price list and website I can guess you want to shoot model portfolio and fashion work.  

The only problem with this is that it is the same thing most photographers wants to shoot, and just like you they are willing to do it for free when they start out.

Someone just starting out modeling is going to seek out the TFCD or TFP people until they have experience, and then they want to be paid to shoot or they will pay for a high end photographer for their portfolio.

So you are in the catch 22

You need to have something to set you apart from the others; you need to have a style that draws people to you and makes them want your images in their portfolio.  As well I think you need to show more diversity in your work.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

I do find myself in a catch 22. 

However, most people are attracted me because my work is unlike anyone in my area's. They all tell me they like the lighting/angles/colors and want to shoot with me. I feel that my work is good enough to pay for, but as soon as any mention of price comes out, they are turned off. I put a lot of work into a shoot and I can't keep doing freebies, I have to cover my expenses and time.

I've also tapped into the senior portraits market a bit. Some people have seen my stuff and asked about pricing for senior portraits. Upon delivering the pricing, I don't hear from them again.


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

You need to keep at it and remember any client that runs from your pricing is not the type of client you want.

That being said try to give more detail in your lower end packages, you want your customers choosing your least expensinve package to be as excited as your most expensive.

As well I am a fan of posting your prices.this way if you are in the range they are looking for they will contact, but if you are too expensive they do not waste your time. Every one wants it for free.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm sorry, I guess I'm confused about "give more detail in your lower packages." What do you mean by that.

At this point, I just want clients, I'm tired of running around for hours shooting someone for nothing.


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## c.cloudwalker (Oct 12, 2009)

Your rates don't seem bad but I don't know your area so it is hard to tell. 

However, I would not pay them. Nothing horrible about your photos but there is no WOW factor either. And you may want to get yourself a book on posing. You may not want to shoot for nothing but models don't want to pay for something they can get for time spent.

I think you need to be more critical of your work. Thanks to the internet, you can easily look at some good portfolios. Don't look too much at MM; most of what I see there is utter rubbish. Or get some fashion magazines. Then, come up with 3 different sets that you can create easily and shoot well with whatever gear you have and get some WOW photos with 3 or more different models. Don't put every image you get out of the sessions on your website. Pick the very best ones (and be extremely critical, you have to be your very own worst critic) and only put those on the website.

Better to have 12 amazing shots than 50 so-so ones.

I'll help you get started with this very nice portfolio. Not everything is WOW but there is plenty of it overall. And notice that some photos are very simple to create.
Kevin Kertz | Photography

Good luck.


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

What looks better?

Package 4 &#8211; $75 
1 hour shooting time 
8x10 photo of your choice 
Online gallery for proofing/ordering 

Or 

Individual Package - $75
1-hour session with a creative photographer at the location of your choice (within 10 Miles)
$40 print Credit to be put toward your first print order
Final prints re-touched and ready to be framed
Online Proofing and Gallery to share with your family and friends (30 days)
_This package can be customized, contact me for more details!_


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

Actually I think the first one looks better because the $75 - $40 print credit would mean that for the hours of work I put into the shoot I would be making $35


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

Depends it you charge $40 for an 8X10.
You are not selling your prints at cost I hope.

One 8X10 with me is $40, or they can get two 5X7 or put the credit towards a larger print.

The point you want to allow them to have some choice. you can make the print credit for whatever you charge for an 8X10 or any other amount you want.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Your rates don't seem bad but I don't know your area so it is hard to tell.
> 
> However, I would not pay them. Nothing horrible about your photos but there is no WOW factor either. And you may want to get yourself a book on posing. You may not want to shoot for nothing but models don't want to pay for something they can get for time spent.
> 
> ...



I love your stuff. Any recommendations on books for posing? I guess I'm not familiar with what you said:

"come up with 3 different sets that you can create easily and shoot well with whatever gear you have and get some WOW photos with 3 or more different models."

Can you clarify a bit? Also, how would I go about getting some WOW photos?

I don't just want to shoot models. I want to be a portrait photographer that has a creative approach that's different to other photographers in my area.


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## c.cloudwalker (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks for loving the photos. I wish but they are not mine. I just find them quite nice and they illustrated what I was telling you.

A WOW photo is just a photo that makes you say WOW when you see it. Instead of "oh, ok, another model in a field." And it is going to come from a combination of several things. Superb quality of the photo, great somewhat over-the-top PP, beautiful lines and tones and textures, color combos, etc, etc. The more of those elements you combine in one photo, the more wow you get. I hope this is clear enough.

3 sets is just 3 different set-ups. Let's say, for example, the bartender, the kid with her toy 4-wheeler, and the woman reclining on the sofa. Each of these set ups, you can get several shots from by having several models available and doing different poses.

Example: the bartender. You could also have a female model and do a barmaid. Then you do one with both a barmaid and a barman. Just make sure they are different enough from each other.

There are different ways to come up with ideas. You have a friend with a very interesting face and you figure out a location and situation to take best advantage of that face.

Or, you find a great location and figure out a situation and model to fit. Etc, etc. You can't just have photos that are technically ok. They have to be interesting too to separate you from the rest of the mob.

That website is also a good way to show you that models don't have to always be pretty women. There are men and kids too.

Some model shots can be used to get portrait work. Some portrait work can be used to get model work. Model work can be a very good income as there are so many people who dream of becoming models.

Next time you are on MM, read their text about headshots and make sure you get some of those while you have a model no matter what else you do with that person. They are the simplest of shots, every model needs them and few photographers seem to know how to do them.

No posing book that I can recommend unfortunately. It has been too long since I used one but you can do a search here or post a new thread about it. You can also try your library if you have a decent one.

Hope this helps.


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## bdavis (Oct 12, 2009)

SpeedTrap said:


> Depends it you charge $40 for an 8X10.
> You are not selling your prints at cost I hope.
> 
> One 8X10 with me is $40, or they can get two 5X7 or put the credit towards a larger print.
> ...



I do mark up my photos to make a profit but nowhere near that high. My question is, If I can't even get someone to book with me for $75, how can I expect them to pay $40 foran 8x10?


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 12, 2009)

bdavis said:


> If I can't even get someone to book with me for $75, how can I expect them to pay $40 foran 8x10?


 
That is where your thinking is wrong,
1) I do make money from prints, but making money is not a bad thing
2) If your customers will not pay what you need to stay in business, then get different customer or get in a different business.

You need to figure out why they will not book with you, I might help to attend a PPA meeting and look at joining a professional association, where you can talk to people in your market.


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## bdavis (Oct 13, 2009)

Well...you being a photographer as well


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## bdavis (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, you being a photographer as well...why do you think they wont book?

I actually had a woman book me to shoot her sons senior photos but then after she said its a go...all of a sudden she said "Oh the date we decided on won't work, I'll have to get back to you with a date that does." Then she stopped responding to me.

I'm just so frustrated that no one will book with me. I really need this and it's hard to get something started. Around my area I see tons of really bad photographers getting all the business. I know my stuff is good, all the pros have told me so and loved my shots. So,why can't I get anyone to see that my work is worth paying for instead of going to those "Family shoot for $25 and you'll get a disk of high res images" people? All they go for is the really cheap awful photography from amateurs.


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## SpeedTrap (Oct 13, 2009)

Ok, because you asked, I will start with the small and move up. Some of these are nit picking, but you asked.

1) You have your own domain, but you use a gmail address for your contact. You need to set up email for your domain. Using gmail shows lack of commitment to your customers.

2) Everything in your about section of your website lets me know that this is a part time gig for you, you have another day job so if you don&#8217;t make it no big deal and you touch very little on your past experience, but you did get a new camera in 2008, so I must assume that is how long you have been shooting. Again this does not scream consumer confidence.

3) In your FAQ, do people really ask you if you will work hard to create some great shots for them? You should have that dedicated more to what people need to do to prep for the different types of photoshoots.

4) You need to reduce the volume of images in your galleries; one or two of your strongest images for each model would be lots. As well you need to get some images in portraits, it is hard for someone to book you for portraits when the section on your website just says coming soon.

5) Post your prices, I think customers like to know what they are going to pay. Even if they are just a starting point and the package can be customized, if they have no idea what it will cost, they will not call.

6) "Oh the date we decided on won't work, I'll have to get back to you with a date that does." Then she stopped responding to me&#8221; Well that could mean that they want to cancel but don&#8217;t want to come out and say it, or it could mean a lot of things. Just send them a nice email letting them know that should they care to rebook in the future you will be happy to work with them and move on.


7) &#8220;So, why can't I get anyone to see that my work is worth paying for instead of going to those "Family shoot for $25 and you'll get a disk of high res images" people? All they go for is the really cheap awful photography from amateurs.
&#8221; Because your customers have not been educated to the difference, not just in image quality, but also to services offered. You need to teach them that you sell a superior product and then show them. List your products you can offer, (Canvas, Books, Prints, Framing etc) let them know if ever there is a problem with a product whether it is a week from now or 5 years from now you will make it right.

You need to create a strong presence that lets your customers know you are here to support them and you will do what it takes to get the job done. As I stated before I would look into the local chapter of the PPA, when I joined the PPOC (Canada) it changed my business dramatically and it changed the type of clients I had.


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## Lyncca (Oct 13, 2009)

This is really great advice.  I also want to add, don't act desperate no matter how much you want/need the shoot.  After two years of groveling and begging, I am a little more distant to my potential clients.  After a gazillion shoots and perfecting my style, people are a little less concerned about my price because they know they WILL NOT get my quality at Target or with a MWAC.  

Some people can see the difference but still won't pay for it.  Oh well, they can have fun at Target


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## craig (Oct 13, 2009)

You are trying to pick up some really tough clients. If the client has "model stats" and heading to an agency they do not need a portfolio. If the client is heading in a different direction great photos WOW factor included are easy to get. Even then a great book is only semi important. For every model there is 10 photographers. Plus models have no money.

Your best bet is to contact agencies, magazines, clothing companies or anyone even remotely related to the industry. You can not wait for clients to come to you. You must go out there and get them. Takes a lot of networking and plain old leg work.

Love & Bass


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