# Hi everyone! Newbie looking for advice on how to get (my hobby) noticed.



## SarahHaras (Aug 29, 2012)

Hi there. I have just started taking this photography thing a little more seriously and I am wondering how you all get the most exposure for your work? Do you use social media to display your work? "Old School" advertising? Word of mouth? Any tips and tricks out there? I'm still learning how to take a decent picture- but what do you think is the best way to see if anyone else enjoys them? Thanks for your thoughts! https://www.facebook.com/SarahHarasPhotography


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## binga63 (Aug 30, 2012)

One post .....how do i get famous? .....is not a great way to start 
Good luck..... persevere..... try .... and don't expect many to view your pics from a hot link to another forum......I had a look but many here will not because what is the point of having a photography forum if you try to get the users to go elsewhere to view your pics... try posting a couple here for C&C....
Become a contributor to this forum not a "USER" and you will find it more helpful to your creative needs....


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## Derrel (Aug 30, 2012)

Nudes and implied nudes get the MOST hits. BY FAR.


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## orljustin (Aug 30, 2012)

SarahHaras said:


> I'm still learning how to take a decent picture



Why do you need exposure?  Why do you care if anyone else enjoys them?  Just take your camera and go shoot and have fun!

Oh, I forgot, anyone with a dslr is now a business...


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## tirediron (Aug 30, 2012)

SarahHaras said:


> ... I'm still learning how to take a decent picture...



That's the only thing to concentrate on.  You DO NOT want people looking at your work now and remembering it five years from now when you can take a decent picture.  I've looked at your Facebook page, and you have a few interesting shots to be sure, but clearly a very limited grasp of the fundementals of exposure and composition.

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to learn.  An excellent way to do that is ask questions here.  You can also post pictures (not more than four per thread for best results please) in the gallery section below for comments and critique (Called "C&C").  You will have to develop a bit of a thick skin, since we're not your family or friends, and we will tell you everything that we wrong with your images.


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## Designer (Aug 30, 2012)

orljustin said:


> Oh, I forgot, anyone with a dslr is now a business...



Sarah; Follow these simple steps:

1. Sign up on as many social networking sites as possible.
2. Develop your own website.
3. Design an AWSOME watermark.
4. Purchase an entry level DSLR.
5. Take some pictures and post them everywhere.
6. Bask in your new-found fame and fortune.


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## cgipson1 (Aug 30, 2012)

Maybe actually learn to use your camera first, before worrying about this!   Once you can take shots that will impress people.. then worry about exposure!

You probably get a lot of good feedback from people on Facebook, and your family and friends .. but most facebook'ers don't have a clue what good photography is.. and your family is your family.

I am not even going to try and critique a bunch of shots on Facebook.. but one thing that stands out, is your processing... it is all over the place, bad WB, bad skin tones.

If you post some shots here for C&C.. we will try to help you improve... best I can offer! (2 or 3 shots max, numbered for reference!)


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## MLeeK (Aug 30, 2012)

If you are wanting to become a professional photographer (that's business, not skill) you need to sit down and plan your business. AKA: A Business Plan. 
A good thorough plan for how to succeed in your business covers the research part of EVERYTHING in the business from the basic what you need to be in business to everything you need to succeed. 
It's complicated and will take you some time-probably a couple months at best-but if you do the THOROUGH job that it should have you will be in a great position to be successful.

Business is often something people jump into with not a clue about the in's and out's of business. Especially in this industry we see people do it every day and they go out of the business just as fast as they come.


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## Derrel (Aug 30, 2012)

I went through your Facebook page this morning...and I still say sprinkle in a few implied nudies...and no, I am NOT kidding...a shirtless guy or two (think *that Thor dude* from The AVENGERS), a little beefcake...a bikini girl...or two...


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## MLeeK (Aug 30, 2012)

I looked at your facebook. Step away from the glamor glow editing. You have some good shots to start with, but your editing isn't helping you.


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## Tamgerine (Aug 30, 2012)

tirediron said:


> SarahHaras said:
> 
> 
> > ... I'm still learning how to take a decent picture...
> ...



No way! I'd love to be an amazing photographer and have people look up the crap I made five years prior. It shows that progress takes actual work, and that most people don't come out of the womb an amazing photographer.

Plus it makes it easier for me to sell them my Five Amazing Steps to Better Photography and Whiter Teeth.

Interested?


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## ronlane (Aug 30, 2012)

I joined this forum just a few weeks ago with the same enthusiasm and thought I was going to take the world by storm with my photos and just need confirmation and advice on getting known and noticed. Like the posts above, I was given very similar advice and have since determined that I have a TON of things to learn to even attempt thinking of being successful. I have tried to take all of the advice given and I read on here a lot and practice. I am working on my business plan and making a list of the equipment that I need to do things right.

I think that even with just less than a month, I have seen great improvements with all aspects of my photography.

I have not looked at your pictures, but I will say that the people on here are giving you honest feedback, as hard as it is to take it, know that they aren't attacking you. They are just trying to guide you correctly in a VERY difficult industry.


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## jwbryson1 (Aug 30, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Nudes and implied nudes get the MOST hits. BY FAR.




Derrel is correct, and lucky for YOU, we now have a forum for this very thing.  Post often.  :mrgreen:


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## jwbryson1 (Aug 30, 2012)

SarahHaras said:


> how do you get the most exposure for your work?




Shoot wide open directly into the sun.  Your images will look like the following:



























:mrgreen:


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## Tuffythepug (Aug 30, 2012)

It is always amazing to me how someone will say that they are just learning how to take decent pictures yet they already have photos with a watermark proclaiming "so and so's photography" as though it's a professional business.    I think the order of  events should be  1.    Learn your way around a camera   2.  practice to the point that you can take photos  that people actually want to see  3.  Study how to run a photographic business  4.  Figure out who your clientele is likely to be  5.  Declare yourself a photographer and a add watermark to your shots to dissuade theft of your work.                      It seems like everyone wants to skip straight to #5

It's been said here before and it's proven over and over again.   With today's digital cameras practically anyone can take a "good picture".   Knowing how to do it to a level of excellence that a pro must possess is an entirely different matter

Sarah, I looked at your pictures on your link.   I'd hold off on the marketing aspect for now.   they're good.... not great..   Keep at it though.  You have a good eye.


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## SCraig (Aug 30, 2012)

Must be the weather or something.  This is, what, the 4th or 5th this week stating they are a photography rookie in one post and wanting to know how to get their "Work" noticed or where to get business cards printed or how to set up a web site or what equipment they need in the next post.

An important concept of this forum is to remember that we aren't your friends and family.  We aren't your facebook buddies.  In short, we don't know you and we will tell you the truth and not what you want to hear.  If you listen you will get better.  If you get mad it won't help you and it won't bother us.  There are  a lot of highly experienced photographers on this forum and you've already gotten some good advice mixed in among the barbs.  Stick around and pay attention.

I looked through your photos as well.  I have to agree with the others that worrying about advertising your "Work" is rather premature.  There are some "Facebook Decent" shots there (which equates to "OK" here), however it on;y took me a minute or two to go through them because there wasn't anything there that really made me stop and look at it for more than a second or two.  Many of them have very soft focus, many have depth of field problems, many have white balance problems.  And as MLeek said, step away from the effect processing.

Study and learn the essentials.  Understand (not just "Read About" or "Look At") but truly understand the exposure triangle and how it affects every photograph you take.  Learn and understand depth of field.  Understand the rules of composition, starting with the "Rule of Thirds".  And most of all understand that post processing means doing the LEAST amount to your photograph to bring out the best in it.  It doesn't mean adding a bunch of effects and processing to cover up mistakes.  If you have questions, ask.  This is the place.

You have a good eye.  You see things that others might miss but your photographic abilities need some work.


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## jhodges10 (Aug 31, 2012)

As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.


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## 2WheelPhoto (Aug 31, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/SarahHarasPhotography <--great beginning.  Next you need a HUGE watermark


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## mjhoward (Aug 31, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Nudes and implied nudes get the MOST hits. BY FAR.



Unless they are OF Derrel!  

Just Kidding of course


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## cgipson1 (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.



Sorry... but I would think anyone with half a brain would know you can't get a DSLR one month, and hang out a shingle the next! (but then.. look at all the MWAC's on Facebook! Maybe I am wrong!)


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## DiskoJoe (Aug 31, 2012)

Did nobody notice that the OP has not posted anything else. 

SPAM yo.

lock this crap.


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## SCraig (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.


I am so very thankful that there was no way to easily share my photographs when I was first starting out.  I would truly and honestly HATE to look back and see any of them today in any way, form, or fashion.  I have negatives and slides I haven't looked at in decades, and honestly do not want to.

Trust me that if you apply yourself in photography, in a couple of years you will honestly wish that anything you shot today would disappear from the face of the earth.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.



I thought like you 6 months ago because i was walking down the same path as similar posters. but instead of taking photos for a month i took photos for a few years. and as i worked on my photography I studied up on what was needed to get started, to get my name out there to open up shop properly and legally and i never got responces that were snarky or mean because I had done my homework ahead of time. People do tend to get pissed off and a bit snarky at several people a day coming to a photoraphy forum and saying ive taken pics for a few months and now i have the skill to be a professional. 

Not to mention as much as this question is asked you can simply just read a few posts in this section of the forum and pretty much read the majority of info about what you need to do to learn. but most people don't want to bother to take the time to even look the information up. they want it to be handed to them. heck if you can't take a years time to learn your camera why should you be expected to look up information.  Thats why people answer sarcastically. and even with the people who answer sarcastically there are still a lot of good information being given in the posts if people will bother to read them.


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## orljustin (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell.



That's ridiculous.  A class is for criticism.  Trying to pass yourself off as a competent photographer with business cards and such is just silly.


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## zombiemann (Aug 31, 2012)

One thing I don't get and I hope somebody can explain it.  Why the hate for beginners watermarking their shots?


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## cgipson1 (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that *encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell.*



Also should have mentioned that the highlighted sentence above is good sales technique on the part of your "teachers". You hang photos in coffee shop... they never sell! You ask teacher why.. they say you need more classes to get good enough to sell! (teachers laugh behind your back, rolling eyes, high-fiving each other!)


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## zombiemann (Aug 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> jhodges10 said:
> 
> 
> > As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that *encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell.*
> ...



Now that you mention it I have never been sitting at a coffee shop and thought to myself "WOW that is an amazing photograph, I wonder if they will sell it to me?"


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## cgipson1 (Aug 31, 2012)

zombiemann said:


> One thing I don't get and I hope somebody can explain it.  Why the hate for beginners watermarking their shots?



Watermarks in general are not really needed at the usual sizes posted here. And very few of the images posted are of such quality that anyone would want to steal it in the first place.

The main issue though, are:

Most noobs create a watermark that is *TOO DAMN BIG AND GARISH!!!!    *

to the point of distracting the viewer from the photo... BADLY!

That and the* IRONY*.. *JoeBOB Lisa's Amazing Photography* *< ( has had camera for one week, 2 days, 7 hours, 3 minute, and 11 seconds!)*


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## amolitor (Aug 31, 2012)

I've seen some outstanding work in coffee shops, but I've never bought any. This is because I do not as a rule buy art, though.

I've also never seen any evidence that any art, good or bad, is sold through a coffee shot. Selling framed photographs as a thing is pretty hard. There's a enough people out there doing it that there's a lot of talented people doing it. The market is saturated, even after you remove the people that are not doing excellent work. That's life. The "pros" on TPF sure hate it, though. Man do they hate it.


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## cgipson1 (Aug 31, 2012)

amolitor said:


> I've seen some outstanding work in coffee shops, but I've never bought any. This is because I do not as a rule buy art, though.
> 
> I've also never seen any evidence that any art, good or bad, is sold through a coffee shot. Selling framed photographs as a thing is pretty hard. There's a enough people out there doing it that there's a lot of talented people doing it. The market is saturated, even after you remove the people that are not doing excellent work. That's life. The "pros" on TPF sure hate it, though. Man do they hate it.



Off Topic Question? Those photos on your Blog... did you take those? Just curious!   You know the FSA Photo of the week things? Like this one?  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Znve-Tpa3g/UD4ZA-o_BDI/AAAAAAAAHRg/9N5X_yFdubQ/s1600/FSA.jpg


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## Derrel (Aug 31, 2012)

Coffee shops exist for the purpose of selling coffee, coffee products and ancillary items, and for people to hang out and talk, dink around on WiFi-connected laptops,people-watch, and to drink coffee in. Need a new French press coffee maker from Bodum? A new gold coffee filter? A new aluminum, insulated car coffee mug? A pound of Sumatran coffee beans? ;well, I dare say, a coffee shop is a GREAT PLACE to buy ANY of the aforementioned things. Need new wall art for your home, office, or vacation place? Uh...a coffee shop ain't the place to look for wall art...

I was down at Les Schwab Tire Center, getting some new tires last week, and they had some DANDY dog leashes for sale, hung on the walls! I don't have a dog, but I thought, WOW! HOW Cool! Dog leashes--at a tire-and-wheels place! Awe-suuuum!"

See how that works???


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## zombiemann (Aug 31, 2012)

@Charlie: Gotcha.  I do "watermark" my photographs when I post them, but 9/10 times it is barely noticeable.  Just my name and the year off in one corner.  Might throw in an outer glow if it's a dark photo, just enough to make it visible.  I do try and keep it small and tasteful.... I just wanted to check and make sure I wasn't entering the temple without knowing the secret handshake or something  The only reason I do it is because most of the pics I post here end up on my facebook and I've had scenarios where friends and friends of friends have shared enough that they come back to me attributed to someone else.


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## zombiemann (Aug 31, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Coffee shops exist for the purpose of selling coffee, coffee products and ancillary items, and for people to hang out and talk, dink around on WiFi-connected laptops,people-watch, and to drink coffee in. Need a new French press coffee maker from Bodum? A new gold coffee filter? A new aluminum, insulated car coffee mug? A pound of Sumatran coffee beans? ;well, I dare say, a coffee shop is a GREAT PLACE to buy ANY of the aforementioned things. Need new wall art for your home, office, or vacation place? Uh...a coffee shop ain't the place to look for wall art...
> 
> I was down at Les Schwab Tire Center, getting some new tires last week, and they had some DANDY dog leashes for sale, hung on the walls! I don't have a dog, but I thought, WOW! HOW Cool! Dog leashes--at a tire-and-wheels place! Awe-suuuum!"
> 
> See how that works???



I had a thought about this topic... I do think their might indeed be a niche market for photographs (well, ok, snapshots) in a coffee shop.  Although it does involve instagram...


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## cgipson1 (Aug 31, 2012)

zombiemann said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Coffee shops exist for the purpose of selling coffee, coffee products and ancillary items, and for people to hang out and talk, dink around on WiFi-connected laptops,people-watch, and to drink coffee in. Need a new French press coffee maker from Bodum? A new gold coffee filter? A new aluminum, insulated car coffee mug? A pound of Sumatran coffee beans? ;well, I dare say, a coffee shop is a GREAT PLACE to buy ANY of the aforementioned things. Need new wall art for your home, office, or vacation place? Uh...a coffee shop ain't the place to look for wall art...
> ...



You mean.. uh.. market to the HIPSTERS?  What a novel concept!!  lol! The only problem is that they would rather go out and try to copy/reshoot the photo so they can claim it for themselves!


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## zombiemann (Aug 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> zombiemann said:
> 
> 
> > I had a thought about this topic... I do think their might indeed be a niche market for photographs (well, ok, snapshots) in a coffee shop.  Although it does involve instagram...
> ...



That's where my hipster cousin Tiny comes in... he breaks their legs... ironically of course


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## jhodges10 (Aug 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Sorry... but I would think anyone with half a brain would know you can't get a DSLR one month, and hang out a shingle the next! (but then.. look at all the MWAC's on Facebook! Maybe I am wrong!)



What the hell is a MWAC? BTW a friend broke her P&S today, commented on FB that she wanted to get a good camera and someone responded "iPhone!" even I wanted to beat the crap out of that person. Getting back on topic, maybe the OP has only shot for a month but I've been shooting for about 5 years. I just got serious about it a year ago and joined TPF a couple weeks ago. I get the frustration of having the same questions posted day after day when anyone could do a search. Overall I find the info on here very useful. If it makes any of you feel better I had done a search on business cards looking for info rather than creating a new thread. As a noob I give you all my solemn promise to always search topics to the best of my ability before asking any questions on new threads. Keep the comments coming, some of them are hilarious.


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## Vautrin (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.



Your teacher is *selling *you a dream.

The truth of the matter is making money in photography is ridiculously difficult.

Part of that is the fact that REAL photography requires ridiculous attention to detail.  What do I mean?  Shoot a model on the beach, make sure her toenails and fingernails are clean, don't want a giant billboard with dirty nails.

If you want some sound advice, you need to be realistic about your career prospects.

Also realize, a best selling photographer is not necessariliy the best photographer.  If you're good at networking you might be able to sell your art for more money than its worth.  I was in an office building once where the owner of the company (who was rich) had an art collection so big, he had his own curator.  And you know what photo was hanging on the walls?  An 8x10 of someone's socks.  Seriously

Photography as a business is:

First and foremost, a business, and requires business skills
Secondly perhaps unrelated to your ability as an artist (so I guess in that way your teacher is correct -- if you get enough coffee shops to show your work, you may indeed make some money)


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## MLeeK (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> As a noob on this forum I feel like I have to stick up (a little anyway) for my fellow noobs. I can't necessarily speak for the others but I can say I've taken a few classes and in all of them the teachers encouraged us to get our work out in front of as many people as possible. I had one that pushed us to get business cards and another that encouraged us to find coffee shops and the like that would let us hang our shots in public view to sell. I totally understand where the pros are coming from. Anyone that thinks they're going to pick up a camera and become famous and rich because they took a couple of good shots in Auto is kidding themselves. That being said when some of you post excessively sarcastic criticisms it's not helpful, it just sounds pissy and vindictive like you don't want anyone else picking up a camera and trying to sell their work. Some of us don't know what we don't know so the CC is extremely helpful. I get that you're trying to be honest but being honest and trying to crush someone's dream are two very different things. I'm ready for my beat down now, I can take it.




Your teacher is not one I'd recommend following. Not that I don't think encouraging you is a good thing. However the advice he or she is giving you is very naive. 
Here's why:
First, you don't want people to know you for the crap you produce in those first months/years/whatever it takes to gain the skill set to produce professional images. If you put out crap now with your name attached to it, you'll become known for those images or the style of those images. I know that I do NOT want to be known for my early work. It wasn't HORRIBLE, but it was NOT something I would be pleased to be known for now. I'd never sell to the clients I sell to now. They'd laugh at me. Hell, I have things I did a few years ago that I need a face palm for. I've made a few selective color images in my day, put a baby in a giant teacup... Yeah. UGH. 

Second you are then representing yourself as a business. And that is COMPLICATED. It can also be dangerous legally if you are not a legitimate business. Having been around this block for many years and involved in the forums I've seen it happen. I have even gotten THE CALL from the state before. I was legal and everything but it was still one SCARY call. And if the state decides you are not in compliance they then report to the IRS. It is easy to get legal, so if you are going to follow the teacher's advice I strongly urge you to do so. It can be done in most states for under a hundred bucks and some reporting of your sales tax, etc. I also HIGHLY suggest that if you are taking photography classes you take business classes. 
Photography and business are two totally separate things and just because someone can take a good photograph, does not mean they can run a business. The business end of this industry is FAR harder than the photography end of it. You have a teacher that is encouraging you to go into something that is more complicated than the education you are getting on photography with nothing. 
Obviously you know you need an education in photography somehow. You wouldn't hang your shingle out if you didn't have the knowledge to do this. Why would you hang your shingle out without getting the education in how to run a  business? You don't become a surgeon with out med school. You don't become a photographer without a photography education. Why on earth does everyone think they should start a business with no business education? It's truly not that easy. 
Luckily you can get some easy business education. Not the best or most thorough, but it will give you a whole lot more than the ART teacher who is encouraging you to act as a business. The U.S. Small Business Administration | SBA.gov is a phenomenal resource as is the Small Business Development Center. Most community colleges have access. If you trace down the SBA website you can get to your local chapter and they will have classes on opening a business, writing a business plan, etc.


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## amolitor (Aug 31, 2012)

cgipson1 said:


> Off Topic Question? Those photos on your Blog... did you take those? Just curious!   You know the FSA Photo of the week things? Like this one?  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Znve-Tpa3g/UD4ZA-o_BDI/AAAAAAAAHRg/9N5X_yFdubQ/s1600/FSA.jpg



No, I did not, of course. I always, in fact, cite who did take it, and it's always someone not named Andrew Molitor.

Why on earth do you ask?


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## jhodges10 (Aug 31, 2012)

The good news in my case is that I was a bank manager for 15 years so I have a fair amount of experience with business plans, SBA and everything that goes with starting and running a business. I'm nowhere near ready to hang a shingle out, I'm just looking to do some grunt work, get a lot of practice in and see if I can make a living at it in the future. Right now I'm a stay at home dad. I've got 3 years before my son will be in school full time so that's my timeframe to see if photography is my future or just a very expensive hobby.


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## Vautrin (Aug 31, 2012)

jhodges10 said:


> The good news in my case is that I was a bank manager for 15 years so I have a fair amount of experience with business plans, SBA and everything that goes with starting and running a business. I'm nowhere near ready to hang a shingle out, I'm just looking to do some grunt work, get a lot of practice in and see if I can make a living at it in the future. Right now I'm a stay at home dad. I've got 3 years before my son will be in school full time so that's my timeframe to see if photography is my future or just a very expensive hobby.



Ok good were getting somewhere 


Excuse the derision on this forum but becoming a photog is a hard path

My grandfather was a pro photog before everyone had an slr and thought that made them pro material.  And the advice he gave me was never become a photog, as you wont have enough money to feed your family or get rich

So imagine how it is today.  Ridiculously competitive.

How will you compete?

First define your niche

Are you an artist?  Will you take beautiful landscapes and sell to galleries?

Or maybe to you want to shoot weddings?

Commercial photography?

Shoot for playboy?

All are different skill sets and target markets

Now figure out how you distribute

etc

Your best bet is to go buy a copy of photographers market on amazon....  See where you can sell images and whats the rate

And do lots of research

And thats why its hard to give you a good response.  If you want to sell in galleries its easy, you probably cant (as you havent won any awards or been noticed).  So you gotta work on that

Want to shoot weddings?  Best go make sure youve got the gear maybe take some wedding courses...  Since if you mess up THE DAY there will be hell to pay

I could go on but I really have no clue.  You need tofind what works for you, which is a long process that is more difficult than just printing business cards

As an ex manager you may find the salary pitifully low.  You know a magazine cover might only pay a couple hundred bucks?  Its a lot of money --  but only if youre shooting a magazine worthy cover each day....   More likely (esp if you are starting) youll spend weeks shooting without getting a single cover worthy photo

And thats the problem -- you have to burn enough film to get good first.  and to find your niche


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## KmH (Aug 31, 2012)

amolitor said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Off Topic Question? Those photos on your Blog... did you take those? Just curious!   You know the FSA Photo of the week things? Like this one?  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Znve-Tpa3g/UD4ZA-o_BDI/AAAAAAAAHRg/9N5X_yFdubQ/s1600/FSA.jpg
> ...


It may because of US copyright law: U.S. Copyright Office - Fair Use



> ....Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.....
> 
> ...The safest course is to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.When it is impracticable to obtain permission, you should consider avoiding the use of copyrighted material unless you are confident that the doctrine of fair use would apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine whether a particular use may be considered fair nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.
> 
> FL-102, Reviewed June 2012


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## amolitor (Sep 1, 2012)

Oh, maybe. Huh. Those photographs aren't copyrighted.


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## pgriz (Sep 1, 2012)

People buy benefits, not objects or services.

People don't buy a drill, they buy a 1/4" hole.  And if you look at how drills are presented, it's about convincing the buyer that with that drill they become cool and PROFESSIONAL.

Who buys a Rolex to tell time? That may be benefit #10.  #1 would be "I'm telling the f*** world I got enough money to spend it on expensive trinkets, and now you can kiss my ass.

Who buys a Mercedes to travel from point A to point B?  Comfort, pampering, and the ability to turn heads, are probably above "transportation" in the benefits list. 

People don't buy a photo, they are buying a memory, or an aspiration, or way to look hip, or an investment, or....  So a photography business isn't actually about photographs - it's about getting people to pay you for giving them a benefit.  Which benefit do they desire?  Well, that's the niche market we talk about.  Photographers focus on photographs.  Business people focus on giving their paying customers what they want.  Once you figure that out, then THAT'S what you are selling.  The photograph is just a medium of exchange, as is the paper money (or change of a few bits in some bank's computers) that you are getting.


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## Designer (Sep 1, 2012)

zombiemann said:


> One thing I don't get and I hope somebody can explain it. Why the hate for beginners watermarking their shots?



No "hate" at all.  The snarky comments are because:

1. Noob thinks going pro is a cheap, quick, and easy way to fame and fortune.
2. Noob thinks he or she is already a good photographer, in spite of the evidence.
3. Noob seldom takes criticism to heart in an effort to improve.
4. Noob has done all this without bothering to view the work of good photographers.
5. Noob has assumed that a watermark signifies professionalism.

Nothing against watermarks in general, but when they are used by noobs to convey the irrational idea that the work is worth protecting, it just seems ridiculous.


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## Vautrin (Sep 1, 2012)

<tongue in cheek>

hey guys

i just bought a scalpel.  its a really nice scalpel and ive been cutting people open with great success

I mean, nobody has lived in the way a surgeon wod judge as a successful surgery, but i still feel i can be a great surgeon

Can you guys just please give me the secrets to your success as pro surgeons?  Pretty please with sugar on top?

</tongue in cheek>


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## KmH (Sep 1, 2012)

Not. Even. Close.


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## jowensphoto (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm not on FB, so I'm only somewhat familiar with the new cropping ratio BS (and maybe someone already said this...)...

...is it just me, or are all the photos on that site instagram?


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## cgipson1 (Sep 2, 2012)

jowensphoto said:


> I'm not on FB, so I'm only somewhat familiar with the new cropping ratio BS (and maybe someone already said this...)...
> 
> ...is it just me, or are all the photos on that site instagram?



The OP's site? Looks like most are...


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## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Actually, I would suggest new photographers put other people's watermark on it.


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## cgipson1 (Sep 2, 2012)

The_Traveler said:


> Actually, I would suggest new photographers put other people's watermark on it.



hahahah.. we could have some fun with that one! lol!


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## cgipson1 (Sep 2, 2012)

Animaniac888 said:


> I'm beginning to think this is some practical joke from one of the members of the forum... Sarah Haras is palindromic.



Do you really think any of our sweet, loyal, friendly members would be so TROLLISH?


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## Derrel (Sep 2, 2012)

Animaniac888 said:


> I'm beginning to think this is some practical joke from one of the members of the forum... Sarah Haras is *palindromic*.



To test your theory, I entered the word "palindromic" into the Word Jamble web site engine and came up with the following list of possible, high-point words for Scrabble or Words With Friends (I left out the low-point-value, easy-peasey words). You might have a point...but then again, probably not...people named Sarah are known to like to spell their name backwards to help compensate for weak memory, which automatically goes with the name Sarah.

*12 points:* complain, picloram, proclaim

*11 points: *campion, complin, crampon, cropland, dominical, oilcamp, prolamin

*10 points: *cipolin, copalm, criminal, daimonic, dioramic, diploic, diploma, lampion, morainic, parodic, picador, picolin, placoid, porcini, rampion

*9 points: *adipic, campi, campo, caplin, clamp, clomp, conidial, cramp, crimp, dipolar, domical, domicil, impair, inclip, ironclad, ironical, limacon, limpid, lipoma, minicar, minorca, monacid, monadic, nomadic, padroni, pianic, picaro, pionic, placid, poniard, primal

*8 points: *amidic, aminic, amorini, anomic, caldron, camion, camp, capon, carpi, clamor, clarion, comp, conidia, copal, copra, cordial, crinoid, diapir, limnic, limpa, lipoid, macron, mandril, manioc, micron, midiron, milpa, modica, nodical, panic, pardon, pical, plica, prima, primi, primo, prolan, rapini, rimland

*7 points: *almond, alnico, amici, amidin, amidol, amnic, anodic, apron, candor, capo, carlin, caroli, carom, carp, claim, clap, clip, clop, codlin, comal, crap, crop, daimio, daimon, damp, diamin, dolman, domain, domic, dormin, impi, ironic, lamp, lapin, lianoid, limina, limp, lipid, lipin, lorica, macon, macro, malic, manic, marlin, micra, micro, midair, miladi, milord, moirai, nimrod, nopal, nordic, normal, oilcan, oilman, ordinal, orpin, padri, palm, pardi, parol, piano, pica, pilar, pima, plaid, plain, podia, poind, polar, pram, prim, prion, prom, ramp, rancid, random, rapid, rodman, romp

*6 points: *acini, acold, acorn, acrid, alcid, aldrin, amido, amino, amp, animi, apod, caird, cairn, calm, canid, cap, carol, cilia, clam, claro, colin, coma, cop, coral, coria, corm, cram, daric, dolci, dolma, domal, dopa, dorp, drip, drop, idiom, iliac, imido, imino, imp, inarm, inlaid, inroad, iodic, ionic, ladino, ladron, lardon, liman, linac, manor, map, marc, mica, milia, minor, modal, moira, molar, monad, mop, moral, narco, naric, nicad, nicol, nipa, nomad, opal, orcin, ordain, pac, padi, paid, pail, pain, pair, pam, pard, pial, pian, pic, pili, pina, pion, pirn, plan, plod, pond, porn, prao, proa, prod, racon, ricin, roman.


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## fotomumma09 (Sep 2, 2012)

Derrel said:
			
		

> To test your theory, I entered the word "palindromic" into the Word Jamble web site engine and came up with the following list of possible, high-point words for Scrabble or Words With Friends (I left out the low-point-value, easy-peasey words). You might have a point...but then again, probably not...people named Sarah are known to like to spell their name backwards to help compensate for weak memory, which automatically goes with the name Sarah.
> 
> 12 points: complain, picloram, proclaim
> 
> ...



Lol...are you bored Derrel?


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## PhotoWrangler (Sep 8, 2012)

Dear Lawd this thread has been entertaining...


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