# When a session goes poorly



## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Hello! This is my first post here. I'm a family/infant/child photographer.

Today I had my first bad session with a client. It was a newborn session. I described in detail via email to the parents what the session would entail, including that it can be a lengthy session, up to three hours, when you allow for feedings, diaper changes, etc.

I usually have fantastic rapport with clients. Everything felt off as soon as I walked in the door. I'm guessing the parents were tired (as all new parents are) but they were short with me and short with each other. I shot for about 30-35 minutes and then baby wanted to eat and needed a diaper change. The dad picked up the baby and announced that the shoot was over. I told him that I was happy to wait for baby to eat, etc.. Both parents were adamant that the session was over, that surely I had enough photos and then basically said good-bye and left the room.

So, I have no idea what was going for them, but what I do know is I have barely three images that I'm really happy with and only a couple more that I barely pleased with. This is the first time this has happened. I usually have to cut myself off when processing photos at around 30, even though I only guarantee approximately 15.

I'm just not sure how to handle it from here. I'm so bummed. I usually leave sessions elated and can't wait to sit down to start editing. Right now I'm just staring at what little photos I have and cringing. Any advice?


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2012)

A THREE-HOUR newborn session???

I used to work at a studio where we took seven finished images in as little as 10 minutes. A newborn baby can be photographed fast, if you are prepared, and have a plan. I'm sorry, but a three-hour session is just totally,totally out of the question in terms of expecting that either a baby, or two parents, will put up with that much of an imposition.

30 images for a newborn session??? I think you need to reevaluate a number of things with the way you approach these types of sessions. I do not want to seem like I am being harsh with you, but I am plain-spoken. I have photographed literally well over 1,000 babies and toddlers. Seriously. Your approach is setting you up for feeling like a failure. Make each shot COUNT. Cover your bases FIRST. A newborn doesn't have to be "on", like a teenaged actress...

When the dad tells you the session is over...then it is *over*, and you have *over-shot your welcome*...possibly by a significant margin.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Not harsh at all. I appreciate the advice.

I'm not talking about three hours of shooting, but that I might be there for as long as three hours. Its usually more like two. It includes photos of baby alone, with parents or siblings, in birthday suit, dressed, etc and like I said, allows for nursing sessions, diaper changes, positioning, etc.

Okay, so I am happy to rethink my approach, but any advice on what I can do now about the session from today?


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2012)

Well, process the good pictures you shot today. You did shoot GOOD shots, right? I mean that seriously, no kidding, no sarcasm,no joking: you DID shoot "good shots", right??? I mean you got your bases covered beginning with pose #1, and moving on to pose #2, and pose #3, right?? Process the good shots. Process what you have. If you're approaching studio portraiture properly, you MADE (not _took_, _shot_, or _snapped_, but MADE) some solid, sellable portraits of the baby. Right from the get-go you were shooting *for keeps*, right?

Again...three HOURS of time, with a newborn and two parents? I just don't understand this. Time for a feeding AND a diaper change??? A nursing session?

You shot for 30 to 35 minutes...a newborn baby cannot stand much more than that. I think perhaps you are greatly over-estimating the length of a welcome people are willing to grant a photographer. Three HOURS??? Even willing, vane, eager, and grown-up "models" can seldom last three full hours...let alone the parents of a newborn baby...

Again, process the good,complete poses that you shot in the 30 to 35 minutes they gave you. I cannot tell you much more than that without seeing/knowing how well you did. But I can tell you one thing: a three-hour newborn/family session is bordering on "unreasonable" in my experience. Just not realistic...


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 5, 2012)

Well timeframe aside you could have walked up right as they were in the middle of a fight and both were still angry while you were there causing short remarks and a quick ending time. It may had nothing to do with you at all.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Okay, you've definitely made it clear (not being sarcastic, just letting you know I hear your thoughts on this).

Honestly though, my sessions are usually really fun. Everyone has a good time. I shoot primarily candids. Sometimes I just hang in the back ground. I get very playful with toddlers and babies. The sessions are in the clients home and I just have a very relaxed approach that has worked very well for me. So, yes, I'll shoot for a bit, mom will nurse and we'll chat, shoot for a bit, "costume change", shoot for a bit, diaper change... Eh, its worked well for me. But today it didn't.

Today, the baby was asleep, but really gassy/working on a poop the whole time. So, she was asleep but wiggling non-stop and scrunched faced the entire time. The photos are good technically, but not a one of them is anything that wows me. I just don't feel good about them.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> Well timeframe aside you could have walked up right as they were in the middle of a fight and both were still angry while you were there causing short remarks and a quick ending time. It may had nothing to do with you at all.



This was sort of the vibe I picked up on. But then what do you do? 

Okay, say we remove the time factor from the equation. How do you handle a bad shoot, period? I'm guessing its happened to most photographers. This is the first time its happened to me. What do you communicate to the client?


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## Desi (Dec 5, 2012)

When we got our newborn shots it did take about 3 hours.  The twins were 12 days old and definitely on their own schedules.  They slept 1 hour, nursed and then were awake for about 1 hour.

Diapers were changed many times.  I definitely got grumpy.  We were already exhausted before the shoot started.

Our photographer didn't warn us about this, so we did feel that she overstayed her welcome............until we got the pictures that is.  Then we were thrilled.

Not sure if this helps at all.  But, I'd just give em what you got.  Do it quickly, though, because those kids do change so fast and they may want to shoot more once they see what you got.  

Good luck


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks, Desi. Going back over the photos this evening, they aren't bad at all. I just wish they were better.


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## thetrue (Dec 5, 2012)

I really want to see what you DID get.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

I would, but this family asked that I not post images online.


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## kathyt (Dec 5, 2012)

Derrel said:


> A THREE-HOUR newborn session???
> 
> I used to work at a studio where we took seven finished images in as little as 10 minutes. A newborn baby can be photographed fast, if you are prepared, and have a plan. I'm sorry, but a three-hour session is just totally,totally out of the question in terms of expecting that either a baby, or two parents, will put up with that much of an imposition.
> 
> ...



Any "lifestyle" newborn photographer will tell you the average session will take around 2-3 hours. Give or take some time depending on the mood of the child. This includes feeding, changing and all that jazz. I am not talking about the posed, cheesy fake backround sessions from Walmart. This is not uncommon at all. If she explained all of this beforehand, then they should have been prepared beforehand.  Was there a contract in place with all the details laid out?  If not, this will help you with these problems in the future. I give my clients a "What to expect guide" before the session that outlines how the session will go so that there will be no surprises. I would call them at this point and explain to them exactly what you are feeling and see how they would like to proceed.


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## KmH (Dec 5, 2012)

GPC said:


> I would, but this family asked that I not post images online.


:lmao: All newborns look pretty much the same. :lmao:

Plus, my pricing was based on the understanding (written right in the contract) that I could use the images I made for advertising and promotion.

It was OK if anyone was not comfortable with that, they just lost the discount that granting me advertising/promotional rights included, and we amended the rights release portion of the contract.


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## pixmedic (Dec 5, 2012)

kathythorson said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > A THREE-HOUR newborn session???
> ...



when you say "lifestyle" photographer, what is actually meant by that? 
is that like a "natural light photographer"?
or does that just refer to any photographer that doesn't have their own studio?
I am totally confuzzeled by the terminology.


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2012)

GPC said:


> Hello! This is my first post here. I'm a family/infant/child photographer.
> 
> Today I had my first bad session with a client. It was a newborn session. I described in detail via email to the parents what the session would entail, including that it can be a lengthy session, up to three hours, when you allow for feedings, diaper changes, etc.
> 
> ...




So, three hours (180 minutes), with an expectation of 15 "guaranteed" decent shots per session. That's one decent shot every 12 minutes of shooting. So, every hour you expect to make just over four decent photos?

The "lifestyle" photo comments from Kathy were amusing...

Snapping away for three hours and filling up 32 gigabytes' worth of CF card space while snapping 700 to 800, or even 1,000 pictures, and managing to eke out a few acceptable frames is entirely the opposite of being able to create imminently saleable photos, one after another, fast and reliably. But that's the difference between having learned on film, where each shots sets you back just shy of half a dollar all together, and being able to impose on people for three hours to be able to scrape together 15 decent images that the photographer is "pleased with".

The original post comments that I put in boldface type highlight some of the main problems i see; the clients were NOT willing to let this session go on,and on,and on. They assumed one thing, and stated that the photographer surely had made enough images. There's a fundamental disconnect here, on multiple levels, as far as expectations of the clients, and the photographer, and what a "professional photographer" is hired to be able to actually do. The session was probably doomed from the get-go. Chalk it up as a learning experience; maybe it could be a good experience to learn from.


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## Tony S (Dec 5, 2012)

How you respond to this depends on what you have written in your contract, which you don't mention anything about having one.  That should spell out what they expect from you, what you expect from them, what the costs are, and since you are shooting a newborn infant a contingency plan in case the shoot doesn't work out.  If you felt something was "off" from the beginng it might have been a good thing to ask if today was a good time.


 Again, it all depends on what is in your written contract.


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## kathyt (Dec 5, 2012)

Derrel said:


> GPC said:
> 
> 
> > Hello! This is my first post here. I'm a family/infant/child photographer.
> ...



Why is this amusing? There is nothing amusing about it. She stated she guarantees 15 images, but normally delivers about 30 images. Pixmedic, lifestyle is more of a candid approach in their environment. For example she could include many rooms in their home like the nursery and the living room, etc.  Sometimes these sessions can be really difficult because you have no idea what type of lighting situations you might be walking into. Derrel, who are our newborn photogs on this forum? Ask them how long they tell their clients to prepare for their session (time wise) and how many images they guarantee in their gallery.


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## thetrue (Dec 5, 2012)

GPC said:


> I would, but this family asked that I not post images online.


Oh, it's Blake Shelton and Miranda Lambert? Or is it Brad and Angelina?


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## Brandon Hill (Dec 5, 2012)

I can't imagine pulling off any kind of photo shoot in a half hour with great success.  I sympathize with your situation GDC.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Derrel, you seem really disdainful about this. I'm not sure why. I've been pleasant and open to feedback.

It rarely takes three hours. Its never three continuous hours of shooting.

I am capable of taking 100s of beautiful shots in short periods, but infants and children throw in a ton of variables. When you photograph a newborn for 30 minutes who is working on a poop the entire time and looks like, well, a person trying to take a crap, you might need a wee bit more time. Is that so ridiculous?


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Some parents are really funny about their kids images being online. Its only happened a couple of times that the parents have been adamant about it and I've let it go.


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## pixmedic (Dec 5, 2012)

Brandon Hill said:


> I can't imagine pulling off any kind of photo shoot in a half hour with great success.  I sympathize with your situation GDC.



with a studio setup? 30 minutes is a fair bit of time if you are only looking for 15 pictures or so. 
if your talking about in someones house where you are just using a speedlight and/or maybe one OCF, even better.


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## orljustin (Dec 5, 2012)

"I shoot primarily candids. Sometimes I just hang in the back ground. I get very playful with toddlers and babies. The sessions are in the clients home and I just have a very relaxed approach that has worked very well for me. "

Translation:  I don't know how to pose or direct people.  I don't have a studio or dedicated outdoor location.  And I'm so relaxed because I don't worry about lighting.  

Lol...


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## ErinJPhoto (Dec 5, 2012)

Wow.  My brother in law Brandon Hill sent me this thread since I do a good amount of newborn/children photography. First of all, these forums should be constructive, not harsh and judgmental.  The dripping sarcasm here is just so off putting and is  why I generally don't participate in forums.  So, to set you people straight:
1. Newborn sessions do in fact take 2-3 hours if you are doing your job.  I am also a mom and there is NO WAY I would ever expect someone to come in a photograph my baby in 3o min.  30 min. is often how long it takes people to get their babies to sleep, diaper changed, fed, etc.  You spend MAYBE 45-1hr min of the 3 hours actually taking pictures.
2. Lifestyle photography means spending time with them to DOCUMENT their lifestyle.  Not shoving yourself in their door for 3o minutes and 'shooting' some pictures.  For me, mine are 1/2 posed and 1/2 photo journalistic.  So, posing them with a limp newborn takes time as parents don't have the first clue how to even hold their newborn without being stiff half the time!  And getting them asleep enough to move them around without them fighting against you will also take a lot of time.  It does not mean you shoot 1000 images and keep 20.
3. Cultivating the client relationship for lower volume studios means spending a good amount of time with them, getting to know them, making them apart of the studio family.  Popping in and out the door in 30 min. will not create any client loyalty.  Sitting patiently while they feed their baby, offering assistance, letting them know you're in no rush when they are stressed b\c their baby is crying, THAT is what will bring them back when they have a 6 month old and will also lead them to spend 1K for that session.  I'm sure you rarely made that much in a newborn session Darrel.  
And yes, I KNOW lighting, I know film, etc.  So, don't even pull that BS with me about not being a real photographer b\c of how we work.  Just b\c you shoot in a studio doesn't make you better than those who don't.
GPC- if I were to offer any helpful advice (and maybe you did this) but it would be to always setup a time to talk with them on the phone and do a consult beforehand b\c never NEVER freaking read the stuff you send!  Never.  Then they are surprised when things don't go as they expect so definitely call first.   And second, I would just edit what you have and maybe their expectations are low and they won't even notice.  If they do say anything you definitely have a leg to stand on by referring them to the info you sent saying it would take 2-3 hours, etc.  I don't think they will ever give you the time you need so if they aren't happy I would just refund them at least part of their payment so they won't go bad mouthing you.  Some people will just never be happy.  Tell them to go to a studio where they will be serviced in the time they feel is appropriate.    Hope this was more helpful than some of the other comments you received!


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## tirediron (Dec 5, 2012)

I can't imagine doing a three-hours session either; at the end of two, I'm worn out and the clients are usually done as well, HOWEVER, I do know at least couple in Toronto that uses this methodology and their sessions normally run to several thousand dollars per (with print purchases), so it is definitely a viable business model - face it Derrel...  the world, she is-a changing! 

To echo what everyone else has said, what does your contract say?  Problems like this are a big part of the reason why (1) All of my contracts are "lawyer-approved" and (2) I never promise a set number of images.  Everything is, "approximately", "up to", or some other similar phrasing that indicates the end product without actually promising any definite quantity.


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## GPC (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks Erin. It seems like on the whole, I barked up the wrong tree posting here.

Cheers.


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## stephdjohn (Dec 5, 2012)

Totally agree with Erin!  I shoot a lot of newborns and my sessions are from 2-3 hours every single time. My galleries have roughly 30 images in them.  My orders for newborn sessions are usually around $800-1k with most clients buying my $1400 collection.  I treat my clients well and they are very happy with the experience.  Unfortunately every once in a while we all get a client who is difficult. 

GPC, sorry you were treated so rudely in this thread.  To address your original question about what to do about this session (I didn't see you ask for a lecture on how you run your sessions/business), I would call them and explain that there seems to have been a miscommunication as far as expectations for the session, that you were not able to capture your typical images in such a short time.  I would say that you totally understand how stressful having a newborn is, so maybe they didn't get a chance to read the information you sent them etc etc.  Then you can decide if you want to offer to do a reshoot (ugh! I probably wouldn't because they seem difficult) or just nicely let them know that because they ended the session way early, the gallery will be very small. Good luck!


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## kathyt (Dec 5, 2012)

GPC said:


> Thanks Erin. It seems like on the whole, I barked up the wrong tree posting here.
> 
> Cheers.



No you didn't.  I promise everyone that has posted here is generally extremely helpful and kind. (and some of them are pretty funny) Each of us has a different perspective on this that comes from our own experiences. Some of the members here may not have done these types of sessions before and might be thinking on the lines of a more traditional newborn shoot vs. these more modern, lifestyle sessions. I used to do these, but now I am mainly a wedding photographer. I would sell alot of canvas wrap clusters, albums, and image boxes. Being in their home was such a great way to upsell, because you could offer suggestions for what would look good where from all of your samples. My average sale from these sessions was extremely high, but yes they are very time consuming and require alot of patience and nurturing.


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 5, 2012)

From the origonal post people seem to be harping on the whole time frame issue and not reading into what was going on.  They were short with her the entire time. short with each other. that doesnt sound like people who only want 30 minutes worth of photos. that sounds like two people who were likely fighting at the time and the OP just was there at the wrong time. Id likely give them a call when you have what you have edited. still only choose what are actually sellable photos, don't try and add trash photos in to up your number. just pick out ones you would normally pick out. call and tell them what you have and go over the contract they signed and just tell them you were only given 30 minutes and so you dont have that many shots.    who cares if jon doe down the street takes 30 great shots in 30 minutes or less. thats not you and is irrelevent to the situation.  When I did my first baby shoot it took about an hour or so and I got home and I just wasn't happy with the product I had. so I called them up. told them that I would like to schedule another shoot to get them them the best photos and I ate my time. in this instance if you told them a 2-3 hour shoot and you got 30 minutes they can ask you to come back or they can deal with what you got in that timeframe.  my opinion of course.


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## pixmedic (Dec 5, 2012)

ErinJPhoto said:


> Wow.  My brother in law Brandon Hill sent me this thread since I do a good amount of newborn/children photography. First of all, these forums should be constructive, not harsh and judgmental.  The dripping sarcasm here is just so off putting and is  why I generally don't participate in forums.  So, to set you people straight:
> 1. Newborn sessions do in fact take 2-3 hours if you are doing your job.  I am also a mom and there is NO WAY I would ever expect someone to come in a photograph my baby in 3o min.  30 min. is often how long it takes people to get their babies to sleep, diaper changed, fed, etc.  You spend MAYBE 45-1hr min of the 3 hours actually taking pictures.
> 2. Lifestyle photography means spending time with them to DOCUMENT their lifestyle.  Not shoving yourself in their door for 3o minutes and 'shooting' some pictures.  For me, mine are 1/2 posed and 1/2 photo journalistic.  So, posing them with a limp newborn takes time as parents don't have the first clue how to even hold their newborn without being stiff half the time!  And getting them asleep enough to move them around without them fighting against you will also take a lot of time.  It does not mean you shoot 1000 images and keep 20.
> 3. Cultivating the client relationship for lower volume studios means spending a good amount of time with them, getting to know them, making them apart of the studio family.  Popping in and out the door in 30 min. will not create any client loyalty.  Sitting patiently while they feed their baby, offering assistance, letting them know you're in no rush when they are stressed b\c their baby is crying, THAT is what will bring them back when they have a 6 month old and will also lead them to spend 1K for that session.  I'm sure you rarely made that much in a newborn session Darrel.
> ...



speaking of dripping sarcasm and pretentiousness...

30 minutes is a fair amount of time for actual shooting. I was not talking about setup, changing, feeding, posing,  discussions with parents. just actual photographing. 
too much more than that is difficult on a child. and the parents. you do not need "hundreds" of photos in a newborn shoot. 
"hundreds" is a wedding, maybe engagement, or some other "event", not a portrait session. I actually think GPC's 15-ish goal is pretty spot on for an infant shoot. we provide 10-15 on a normal portrait shoot. 

I asked about lifestyle photography because i genuinely was not familiar with the actual meaning of the term. we are portrait and wedding photographers, so I know what those terms are. If you thought I asked for any other reason you are entirely mistaken. 

the comments about a contract are spot on. do you do much work without a contract? we don't. ever. you can always refer back to the contract concerning what the clients should expect to get. if you over deliver, then so much the better. GPC has not yet said what their contract says about what is expected from them, so its difficult to weigh in on that subject, except that EVERY client should sign a proper contract on EVERY job. 

I don't recall anyone here belittling anyone for not having a studio. we have a good deal with a local photography store that has a studio for all our portrait work that isn't done on location somewhere.  its a pretty good arrangement. 

lastly..."I would just edit what you have and maybe their expectations are low and they won't even notice."
seriously? You want us to take you seriously as a photographer, and you say THAT??  sorry, if you cant provide quality work, then you shouldn't give it to a client. ever. NEVER hand out sub-par work and expect that the client is too stupid to know the difference between good photography and bad. 

GPC...do a re shoot. do NOT give a client sub par work. talk to the family, explain that the situation was not ideal to get the kind of quality pictures you want to be able to give them, and schedule a re shoot when everything can be lined up ahead of time and prepared. give them quality work, and when other people see it, they will see that you do quality work and want to use you too. 
if you take the advice of handing them garbage, then that's what everyone will see, and you can never take that back.


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2012)

GPC said:


> Derrel, you seem really disdainful about this. I'm not sure why. I've been pleasant and open to feedback.
> 
> It rarely takes three hours. Its never three continuous hours of shooting.
> 
> I am capable of taking 100s of beautiful shots in short periods, but infants and children throw in a ton of variables. When you photograph a newborn for 30 minutes who is working on a poop the entire time and looks like, well, a person trying to take a crap, you might need a wee bit more time. Is that so ridiculous?



This is your first post here. You think this is me being "disdainful"? Lol.

How much support and back-patting would you like for a session that "went poorly"? Your clients clearly were NOT in the mood for the session when they arrived. The father picked up the baby and told you the session was over. You originally posted that you were barely able to shoot anything passable in 30 to 35 minutes. I have not seen one single frame you've shot, but heard nothing but how poorly the session went. Your initial post said you had results you were not at all happy with...then, later, you back-pedaled a bit and apparently, now the shots do not look quite so poor, to paraphrase your words.

I'm intimately familiar with the many variables that infants and children throw into a session. But, you know, *when the father picked up the baby and told you the session was OVER*...it indicated something seriously wrong. Maybe you can use it as a learning experience? I could care less if it's three hours of "continuous shooting"...if you think that you need three hours to photograph a newborn baby...I think you are seriously, seriously in need of some tips and mentoring on how to handle a newborn shoot that has two parents in attendance. A three hour long NEWBORN session??? With TWO parents in attendance? A session that was ended by the father picking up the child and telling you the session was "over".

Am I supposed to be really in awe of you about this "session that went badly"? I'm disdainful because frankly, I think maybe there's something seriously wrong here. A session that "goes poorly" can be viewed as an opportunity to improve your business model. Perhaps you ought to think about what caused the entire session to be abruptly ended by the father...


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## Derrel (Dec 5, 2012)

So...let's say the photographer takes 500 images in 180 minutes. Using a shutter speed of 1/250 second, that is 0.004 seconds per exposure.

So...500 frames x .004 seconds of exposure per frame, EQUALS 2.0 seconds!!!!!

Awesome! So, even though it takes three full hours to shoot a session, the photographer is only "*actually shooting*" for 2.0 seconds.

Amazing how one can rationalize how long it actually takes to shoot 15 different poses!!!


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## gsgary (Dec 6, 2012)

GPC said:


> Derrel, you seem really disdainful about this. I'm not sure why. I've been pleasant and open to feedback.
> 
> It rarely takes three hours. Its never three continuous hours of shooting.
> 
> I am capable of taking 100s of beautiful shots in short periods, but infants and children throw in a ton of variables. When you photograph a newborn for 30 minutes who is working on a poop the entire time and looks like, well, a person trying to take a crap, you might need a wee bit more time. Is that so ridiculous?



Take a look at some of the best avaliable light photographers like Jane Bown sometimes she got less than 5 minutes, Samuel Beckett it was probably more like 10 seconds but what a shot 3 hours is crazy if you have studio lighti.g you know what lighting there going to be


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## Sw1tchFX (Dec 6, 2012)

I've met some pretty _serious_ pro baby photogs, and when we talked shop, none of them ever said a shoot went 1-3 hours...

Even if you're a lifestyle shooter..you shoot the 10 moneymaker poses first, if something evolves out of that, great, but at least you've got your 10 moneymakers... That takes about 5 minutes.


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## janineh (Dec 6, 2012)

I do a lot of newborns and a session is always 2-3hrs. Baby first need to go to sleep which sometimes takes an hour. All depends on the baby. 3hrs is totally normal.

Yeah, not sure what to tell you. Totally understand where you are coming from. I would say you show them the 3 pics you've got and tell them a session usually lasts longer. But bc they wished to end the session, that is all they get.

Maybe offer to come back if they wish. Thats really all you can do.


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## janineh (Dec 6, 2012)

ErinJPhoto said:
			
		

> Wow.  My brother in law Brandon Hill sent me this thread since I do a good amount of newborn/children photography. First of all, these forums should be constructive, not harsh and judgmental.  The dripping sarcasm here is just so off putting and is  why I generally don't participate in forums.  So, to set you people straight:
> 1. Newborn sessions do in fact take 2-3 hours if you are doing your job.  I am also a mom and there is NO WAY I would ever expect someone to come in a photograph my baby in 3o min.  30 min. is often how long it takes people to get their babies to sleep, diaper changed, fed, etc.  You spend MAYBE 45-1hr min of the 3 hours actually taking pictures.
> 2. Lifestyle photography means spending time with them to DOCUMENT their lifestyle.  Not shoving yourself in their door for 3o minutes and 'shooting' some pictures.  For me, mine are 1/2 posed and 1/2 photo journalistic.  So, posing them with a limp newborn takes time as parents don't have the first clue how to even hold their newborn without being stiff half the time!  And getting them asleep enough to move them around without them fighting against you will also take a lot of time.  It does not mean you shoot 1000 images and keep 20.
> 3. Cultivating the client relationship for lower volume studios means spending a good amount of time with them, getting to know them, making them apart of the studio family.  Popping in and out the door in 30 min. will not create any client loyalty.  Sitting patiently while they feed their baby, offering assistance, letting them know you're in no rush when they are stressed b\c their baby is crying, THAT is what will bring them back when they have a 6 month old and will also lead them to spend 1K for that session.  I'm sure you rarely made that much in a newborn session Darrel.
> ...



Thank you! Well said! Some ppl have no idea what it actually takes to take a sleeping curled up newborn photo. Baby needs to sleep first. That just doesn't happen when you walk through the door. It might take ages...


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## gsgary (Dec 6, 2012)

Brandon Hill said:


> I can't imagine pulling off any kind of photo shoot in a half hour with great success.  I sympathize with your situation GDC.



I can show you a 30 dog shot in 1 hour


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## runnah (Dec 6, 2012)

At the end of the day it's all about making the client happy. 15 mins in you should have felt the vibe and realize it was time to make hay while the sun was shining. Yes there will always be"those customers" but as a professional you have to roll with the punches and work around it.

I don't think you did anything wrong just in future be more adaptive to the situation. Because unhappy customers leads to bad word of mouth which leads to you selling your pocket wizards for food.


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## Steve5D (Dec 6, 2012)

Anyone who claims that a newborn shoot can be successfully accomplished in 30 minutes or less is either out of their mind or has never actually done it. Treating like a Domino's order is silly. There are simply too many variables to be able to make the statement that such a shoot should be done in "X" amount of time.

I've done shoots that have lasted less than an hour. I've done shoots that last two to three hours. The ones that last two to three hours are far more common. When you look through the comments made in this thread, it's pretty evident that a longer shoot is far more common than the shorter one...


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## pixmedic (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Anyone who claims that a newborn shoot can be successfully accomplished in 30 minutes or less is either out of their mind or has never actually done it. Treating like a Domino's order is silly. There are simply too many variables to be able to make the statement that such a shoot should be done in "X" amount of time.
> 
> I've done shoots that have lasted less than an hour. I've done shoots that last two to three hours. The ones that last two to three hours are far more common. When you look through the comments made in this thread, it's pretty evident that a longer shoot is far more common than the shorter one...



Who actually said a shoot can be done from start to finish in 30 minutes or less? I sure didn't. I think the thread has gotten a little off topic though.


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## jwbryson1 (Dec 6, 2012)

ErinJPhoto said:


> So, to set you people straight:




Wow!  Narcissistic much?  :raisedbrow:


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## jwbryson1 (Dec 6, 2012)

GPC said:


> Thanks Erin. It seems like on the whole, I barked up the wrong tree posting here.
> 
> Cheers.



No, you didn't.  What you did, however, was come in with an attitude, but not nearly the attitude given off by ErinJPhoto.  What a joker.  :er:


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## runnah (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Anyone who claims that a newborn shoot can be successfully accomplished in 30 minutes or less is either out of their mind or has never actually done it. Treating like a Domino's order is silly. There are simply too many variables to be able to make the statement that such a shoot should be done in "X" amount of time.
> 
> I've done shoots that have lasted less than an hour. I've done shoots that last two to three hours. The ones that last two to three hours are far more common. When you look through the comments made in this thread, it's pretty evident that a longer shoot is far more common than the shorter one...




My point what that to claim yourself a "professional" you have to be able to work with what you have. Time, lighting, models etc.. A true professional can make any situation look good. Blaming the clients for your poor workmanship is unprofessional.

please note I am not talking about you in particular.


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## Steve5D (Dec 6, 2012)

Derrel said:


> A THREE-HOUR newborn session???
> 
> I used to work at a studio where we took seven finished images in as little as 10 minutes. A newborn baby can be photographed fast, if you are prepared, and have a plan. I'm sorry, but a three-hour session is just totally,totally out of the question in terms of expecting that either a baby, or two parents, will put up with that much of an imposition.
> 
> ...



That was a whole lotta' bloviating to not answer the question.

Regardless of the amount of time she expected to shoot, the fact of the matter is that she came away from the shoot with results she's unhappy with. That's the basis of  her question, I think: How to approach the parents with the substandard results. But, instead of  trying to offer her some advice on how to handle the parents, all you did was go on about how the length of time she _expected _to be there was too long, and how the studio you worked at could shoot a newborn in under ten minutes (I've seen those studios. They usually have a big sign above the entrance that says "SEARS").

To the OP: I would ask to meet with the parents, and explain that you simply didn't not get the results you would normally expect. Don't dare mention a word about how you sensed tension between them or suggest, in any way, that their cutting the shoot short was what caused you to not get results you were happy with. Show them what you have. If they're happy with what you show them, you dodged a bullet. If they're not, offer them a refund (in the long run it's cheaper than having your name dragged through the mud) or offer to do the shoot again. Bottom line, do what you can to make them happy, but within reason. Chances are that, when they look at how _they _handled it, they'll be mortified at themselves.

There's no special little equation which dictates that you should spend "X" amount of time doing a shoot. I've done shoots that I thought would last two hours and were over in 30 minutes. Other times I've done shoots which I thought would last 30 minutes but took over two hours. If you're a pro, you roll with it. Ignore those who laugh at someone who doesn't have a studio or suggest that you don't know how to pose a subject. *Ignore them*. They have nothing to offer you. My experience has proven to me, time and time again, that those who are the most vocal in their criticism are those who are unable to get hired themselves, and harbor a degree of jealousy for those, like you, who _do _get hired.

Your situation is unfortunate, but it's also quite salvageable...


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## pixmedic (Dec 6, 2012)

The larger point here is that the OP had a less than ideal experience with a shoot and now needs advice on what to do about it.  Without getting too far off topic, i think the best thing to do is politely schedule a re shoot, and scrap any and all pictures you arent completely happy with. Anyone advising you to give a client photos you know are poor quality either dont care about their own products,  or dont know the difference themselves.

EDIT: steve5d beat me to the punch, and he is spot on with his advice.


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## Steve5D (Dec 6, 2012)

runnah said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who claims that a newborn shoot can be successfully accomplished in 30 minutes or less is either out of their mind or has never actually done it. Treating like a Domino's order is silly. There are simply too many variables to be able to make the statement that such a shoot should be done in "X" amount of time.
> ...



Well, no.

I was shooting a CD cover for a band. The band's management company scheduled a two hour studio shoot. I had the lights, the back drops, the inifity wall; the whole nine yards.; I was set.

I was to shoot full band photos first, and then individual band members. 25 minutes into the shoot, the record company guy gets a phone call, and the band needs to leave to do a radio interview. BAM. Shoot's o_ver._ As a result, they got some band shots, but I only shot one of the members individually. Ergo, the record company got some band shots that they were very happy with, but none of the individual shots. They paid me for the full two hours, and we scheduled time to do the singles, which they were happy with. The record label even tossed in a little "inconvenience fee" for me that second time around, since I had to shoot them twice.

Now, I don't know about you, but I can't see where the band _doesn't _wouldn't shoulder the blame for an inadequte shoot the first time around...


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## runnah (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Example



I think we are talking about two different things. 

In the OP's case, things started to go south very quickly, thus sensing this, they should have adapted and change the original game plan. 

In your example you had a plan laid out and it was cut off suddenly, nothing you could do but reschedule.

Adaptability is key in any professional setting.


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## Steve5D (Dec 6, 2012)

runnah said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Example
> ...



Exactly.

Your point, though, is that the client shouldn't bear the blame.

I disagree.

In the OP's scenario, I would imagine that she discussed how long the shoot would take, if even only in very general terms. If the clients cut the shoot short, they bear a very large part of the responsibility for the results of the shoot.


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## JAC526 (Dec 6, 2012)

Our newborn shoot took around 3 hours.  The lady did a great job.  Most of the time spent was in getting the baby set up and willing to cooperate.  That does involve diaper changes and feeding.

She was clearly an experience photographer and spent very little time getting her lighting set for each different look.  The majority of the time spent was getting the baby to co-operate.

I can see how three hours seems like a long time but unless you show up and the baby is cooperative I don't see how you get 10 good shots in 30 minutes.  I mean what do you do if the baby is crying?


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## pixmedic (Dec 6, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> runnah said:
> 
> 
> > Steve5D said:
> ...




the real answer will be in how the OP handles it, and how the clients react to it. I think we are all giving advice (myself included) on limited information, especially concerning the contract. we have no idea what the contract stated as far as expectations the clients may have had, or what their own contractual obligations were. did the contract have provisions for a re shoot or a refund? did it cover ANYTHING on client responsibility for the shoot? i think these are somewhat important questions, and MIGHT make some difference on possible solutions. but as far as responsibility goes, if there are no provisions in the contract for client caused issues....what recourse is there except to either go with whatever the client wants, or write it off.  isn't the customer always right?


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## 12sndsgood (Dec 6, 2012)

runnah said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Example
> ...




Umm, that sounds like exactly like what happened with her. in Steves example the shoot was cut off suddenly. in the OP post the dad picked up the baby and just announced the shoot was over. sounds pretty much like the exact same thing to me.  only diffrence is the poor attitude of the parent. and you can't really take a poor attitude as a sign that you will only have a few minutes to shoot.


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## texkam (Dec 6, 2012)

> I described in detail via email to the parents what the session would entail, including that it can be a lengthy session, up to three hours, when you allow for feedings, diaper changes, etc.





> The dad picked up the baby and announced that the shoot was over. I told him that I was happy to wait for baby to eat, etc.. Both parents were adamant that the session was over, that surely I had enough photos and then basically said good-bye and left the room.


They didn't want you there! They didn't like you. If they were having a bad day or were uncomfortable putting thier child through this you would have heard back from them with some kind of explanation, apology, acknowlegement, etc. 





> I'm just not sure how to handle it from here.


Ask them what you can do going forward to make them happy. Take care of it and move on.





> I'm so bummed. Any advice?


Build a bridge __/\__ ...and get over it.


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## vtf (Dec 6, 2012)

I see the forum has a different skin but the same soul. 
If the parents have an issue, then offer a reshoot since they ended the shoot themselves. I do agree that no one reads instructions on pamplets or websites, have it part of your contract to sign before the session. They don't even read the contract, I have to show them where to sign on the signature line. Then move on.
Good Luck


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## slow231 (Dec 7, 2012)

derrel's comments in this thread are completely laughable.  what's worse is that even in an area where he has an obvious lack of knowledge, he's still condescending.  Ignore him.  every newborn photographer I know goes by a very similar timeline for at-home shoots.  Multiple prominent baby/newborn photographers on this site have also come in and confirmed this.  10-30 minutes is comical. is it possible to get several good shots in that amount of time? of course, but anyone who says that is a viable amount of time to guarantee shots is either talking out their ass or drugging their babies.  do you guys not have kids?  babies (and especially newborns) can cry forever.  i don't care if you've shot on film or photoglyphic engraving since the invention of photography.  if you let me pick the baby, and the time, i sure as hell can find a situation where you will not get a single shot in 2 hours (ever heard of colic?).  10 minutes sessions are exactly sears portrait studio.  and we all know that every shot these places output are all gold.

as far as the original topic about how to deal with a client after a bad shoot, I can't help you there.  because you see, i'm 100% perfect and have never failed a client .  truthfully though, I really am not much help here, i can count the number of paid gig's i've done on one hand.  but i do agree with the advice given so far, offer a re-shoot and/or partial refund. if the client becomes difficult, some people just are. for a small business, sometimes it just comes down to mitigating the damage to your reputation.


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## bunny99123 (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't take babies photos unless for family.  Well, I took my cousin's one month old last month, and the baby and parents were ready to call it quites in about 20 minutes.  My opinion, I think babies do better in a studio were everything is setup and ready to go quickly.  I had my son photographed in home and studio and choose to use studio, because it was less time, and who needs so many pictures of your child at one time.  

 I am sure you are a very good photographer, but I don't even shoot my sessions with adults too long.  They get worn out.  Limit to two hours.  I have had bad sessions before, chalk it up to a bad day at work.


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## texkam (Dec 7, 2012)

The OP doesn't know if this has anything to do with time or lack of talent. All the OP knows is that they did not want them there.


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## MOREGONE (Dec 7, 2012)

Here are my thoughts, did you get paid as expected/contracted? If yes: their issue. If no: their issue and PAY UP! You did your due diligence setting their expectations and if for whatever reason they did not want what was offered they should have handled it differently. 

Doing an in home, full experience newborn shoot as you intended is time consuming (and exhausting). I've researched it a lot and done 1 (yeah I am no pro) but it took over 2 hours and I could have kept going. Artistically you may not be satisfied, but it is also a business and if you got paid what you were supposed to, in a fraction of the time, then good for the business side of the house.


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## Duckysaurus (Dec 30, 2012)

Avoid taking baby photos unless you really want to, the baby knows you well, or they're paying you a lot. Big headaches usually.

Usually easier to take photos of babies from afar as to not scare the baby, and almost always without flash (if anything, bounce the flash or shoot when baby is by a window or well-lit!)--makes shooting quicker.

But we do wonder what you did get in those 30 minutes. Do you use S mode or CL (2-3) mode?


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## mostlysunny (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, did they like the pictures you DID get?


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