# Upgrading from 450D, hobbyist wildlife photographer. Debating 7D vs Waiting vs FF



## ChuckV (Sep 11, 2012)

I made the jump up to DSLR photography a few years ago purchasing a new Canon EOS XSi (450D). I'd say my shoot is generally ~65% bird and wildlife, 15% macro, 10% landscape, 10% friends/family/pets. I currently have the EF 28-135 lens that came with the camera, along with an EF-S 60 macro lens, and my trusty EF 100-400 L.

I'm about ready to upgrade. As my skills have improved, I've found myself frustrated more and more often with my camera's AF speed/accuracy (especially against the sky with the 100-400), small buffer size, slow-ish frame rate, and somewhat slow/clunky controls in any of the manual/semi-manual modes. ISO noise also starts to get annoying (for me personally) at 800+, at least against solid backgrounds.

I definitely feel like I'm ready to move to something a bit higher end, but I'm kind of torn about what exactly to do. I'm leaning towards picking up a 7D and a new 70-200 (f2.8 or f4, but that's another debate), but I'm also contemplating springing for a 5D MIII (and getting an EF macro lens instead of splurging on a new 70-200), waiting around for the rumored entry level FF body, or perhaps waiting to see if something new in the enthusiast range is released. The new t4i has been getting pretty favorable reviews from what I've seen, which makes me wonder if waiting a bit to see what's in the pipeline would be a good choice. On the other hand, Canon did just release new firmware for the 7D recently, which to me seems like a way of saying "Don't expect a better APS-C body any time soon".

I've never had occasion to actually use the 7D or 5D MIII, but from what I've read, the 7D would be a better fit for me. The lower cost makes buying new glass easier to justify. The unknown for me is how AF performance compares between the 7D and the 5D MIII. I was under the impression that the 7D compares favorably. Can anyone that has used both comment?

I can easily justify the extra cost of the 7D over a 60D or T4i, but I have a little bit more trouble with the 5D. I think some excellent new glass would serve be better than its extra perks, at least at my skill level and for the kind of shooting I normally do, which makes me think that the 7D is more than likely the right choice for me. My other chief concern is whether or not waiting would be wise. As I said, new 7D firmware tends to make me think that an enthusiast level APS-C camera from Canon is probably quite a ways off, and the 7D is really a fine camera as it is, but the impressive performance of the T4i in terms of low light/high ISO IQ makes me wonder if buying a new lens now and waiting a couple months on the body might be the better move. It's also a bit easy to fall into the trap of waiting for the latest and greatest with electronics of any sort though, when the next generation promises big improvements in a relatively short amount of time.


----------



## MLeeK (Sep 11, 2012)

The AF performance in the 7D is great. I use it for sports because it was the best available focus system under $5K at the time. 
I am more than happy with the 19 cross type focus points and their usability in the 7D. That won't be the reason I buy the 5d3. 
The increased image quality, high ISO handling and higher ISO ability will be my main reasons. I can use the 5d3 for sports as well as portraits and get rid of the 5d2 that I love to hate. 
It depends on what YOU need. Are you shooting in the dark/at night or using high ISO's at all? Or long exposures and HDR? Those will be the deciding factors. Be totally truthful with yourself now. 

If I had to guess from your post that doesn't have all of what I'd want to know I'd say wait. There are RUMORS that a 6D is coming out at Photokina next week. It's RUMORED to be the best of the 7D focus with the 5D2 sensor. 

I know I would not buy ANYTHING until after Photokina no matter what is or isn't announced. The chance for something that falls in where you want it is a definite possibility. I'd rather wait a week and see what the reality is.


----------



## TheBiles (Sep 11, 2012)

Wait and see what we get at Photokina.


----------



## ChuckV (Sep 11, 2012)

I'll definitely be waiting for the 23rd at the earliest before I do anything.

I'd have to say the vastly superior high ISO and low light performance/IQ offered by the 5D is the big thing giving me pause at the moment. I really hate ending up with a blurred, grainy, or poorly focused shot because it's a cloudy day. I do tend to make use of long exposures pretty often (though obviously not of wildlife). I tend to bring a nice lightweight tripod with me when I go out and know I'll want to shoot some stationary objects or landscapes. The in-camera HDR capabilities of the 5D are yet another thing that really make me drool. I just came back from my little sister's wedding down in Australia (all the photography I did there was a big thing that made me realize that it was past time to upgrade. I nearly ripped my hair out trying to get properly focused pictures of these gorgeous little swallows flying in circles), and I can think of at least a dozen specific times over 10 days that particular feature would have been invaluable.

We'll see. If the 5D MIII were about $700 cheaper, I think it'd be a no brainer for me. The 7D would blow away my current camera in terms of auto-focus, controls/ui, image quality, and should offer a substantial improvement over my current camera in terms of ISO handling, the 5D is just very much in a different class by comparison. The jump between "less than $2k" and "more than $3k" is also pretty big psychologically.


----------



## mjhoward (Sep 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> The AF performance in the 7D is great. I use it for sports because it was the best available focus system under $5K at the time.



...from Canon


----------



## MLeeK (Sep 11, 2012)

Cloudy day isn't a high ISO image. We're talking HIGH ISO's here. Not ISO 400. Blurred comes from something other than the sensor. All of which is controlled by the user. 
Long exposures will definitely be a noise situation. 
The issues you had with auto focus would be improved... It's also much a problem of the lens as well. A faster focusing lens, narrower aperture and different focus mode(possibly). 
The new focus system in the 5d3 is without a doubt an improvement over the 7D, but I don't want you to believe it would fix all of your problems or even that the 7D would. The images you were trying to capture were achieved in the past with craptastic focus systems and one focus point. This improvement has made it easier, but not foolproof. 
The image quality ratings off the 5d3 would sell me if I were a serious landscape and wildlife photographer. That's a HUGE deal when you are shooting a 400mm zoom with a 2x converter.


----------



## ChuckV (Sep 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Cloudy day isn't a high ISO image. We're talking HIGH ISO's here. Not ISO 400.


 know what you mean, but I tend to get a fair amount of noise even at 800, which is often what I find that I need to get adequately sharp photos on cloudy days. If I don't have time to set up with a tri-pod/mono-pod for the big lens, it puts me in a tough spot. Using high ISO means that I'm left with a very noisy image much of the time. Using ISO 200-400 means that I'll probably get a blurry image unless I hold my breath and the stars align. That's what I was trying to convey there, sorry if I was unclear. The high ISO performance matters to me on cloudy days because it would let me get away with handheld shots at 200mm+ without needing to deal with lots of noise, a blurry picture, or lousy focus/excessively shallow depth of field (by using a wide aperture to compensate) by using a higher ISO setting to allow for faster shutter speed without lots of noise or a really big aperture. 



> Blurred comes from something other than the sensor. All of which is controlled by the user. The issues you had with auto focus would be improved... It's also much a problem of the lens as well. A faster focusing lens, narrower aperture and different focus mode(possibly).
> The new focus system in the 5d3 is without a doubt an improvement over the 7D, but I don't want you to believe it would fix all of your problems or even that the 7D would. The images you were trying to capture were achieved in the past with craptastic focus systems and one focus point. This improvement has made it easier, but not foolproof.
> The image quality ratings off the 5d3 would sell me if I were a serious landscape and wildlife photographer. That's a HUGE deal when you are shooting a 400mm zoom with a 2x converter.



Skill definitely plays in, and I've certainly got a long way to go! I'm far from a professional, just a hobbyist. That's definitely another thing that factors into my decision. I'd like to think that SOME day I'll be good enough to fully utilize the tools available.


----------



## Derrel (Sep 11, 2012)

Photokina in Cologne,Germany is Sept 18-23...an all-new Canon d-slr camera very well might be announced there. So...I'd wait just a wee bit before making purchase decisions.


----------



## JohnTrav (Sep 11, 2012)

I would go with the 7D. The auto focus system is very nice. Works great for me for sports.  I never really shoot birds flying but my brother has and they came out tach sharp with my 7D and 70-200 f/2.8 canon lens. I have also taken some nice wildlife shots and nature shots with it also.


----------



## molested_cow (Sep 11, 2012)

Not sure if FF is a benefit to you if you shoot telephoto and macro.


----------



## scorpion_tyr (Sep 12, 2012)

From what you describe my advise would be to go with a 7D. Keep in mind if you like shooting macro, the lens you have won't work on a full frame camera like the 5D so you'll either have to go with one of the 100mm's or I guess you could cheat and use extension tubes with the 60mm on a full frame. Wouldn't hurt anything shooting macro I suppose.


----------



## gw2424 (Sep 30, 2012)

The crop sensor would be nice for wildlife. Better AF, EFS mount, more fps.
Go with the 7d. Great value for the price.


----------



## trucnguyen (Sep 30, 2012)

I think, if you like wildlife photograph. I vote for 7D


----------

