# So, do I get to call myself a professional now?



## PersistentNomad

Okay, so this post is mostly just to brag on myself with people who know how it feels to be starting out, cause I'm feeling super jazzed right now!

Early last month I made the decision to start trying to make money with my photos, largely because I want to upgrade my gear and I just can't justify that unless I start making it pay for itself. I've worked as a second shooter for a photog friend of mine a few times and been the photographer for a few friend's weddings, and I love the work. I know it's easy to get burned out on it, but I think that has to do a lot with pacing yourself and not saying "yes" to every job that comes up.

So... I built a website with my limited portfolio (emmathurgood.com, c&c welcome, link fixed), and started advertising on two sites, Thumbtack and wedding.com. In just two weeks I've had six client inquiries!! What? And the weird part is that one of them actually found me on a google search. Double WHAT?! _I can't even find me on a google search! 
_
So, one of the clients has already said they want to book, so I've sent the contract and I'm awaiting a deposit. I have two consultations set up for this week, a shoot with a modern hooper for this week, and I'm working out a session time for an engagement shoot in the next month or so. In addition to all this, I took up a job at a retail studio where I am already killing it and my new boss seems pretty pleased with my ability.

So what do you think, am I a professional photographer now?


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## The_Traveler

Good luck
I suggest you add how many edited pictures you give.


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## table1349

Depends are you set up to pay taxes on your earnings and are you now insured both gear and yourself for liability?  Many a "Professional" has crashed and burned thinking they could make a "few bucks" without covering the basics of any good business venture.


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## tirediron

The_Traveler said:


> Good luck
> I suggest you add how many edited pictures you give.


The correct answer, in case anyone was wondering, is "none".


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## Vtec44

PersistentNomad said:


> So what do you think, am I a professional photographer now?



Yes you are.

IMHO, once you've booked 3 weddings you should up your price.


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## OGsPhotography

Your website crashes my phone


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## PersistentNomad

The_Traveler said:


> Good luck
> I suggest you add how many edited pictures you give.


No way! I know every wedding is different no matter how uniform it may seem and that the number of images will probably not always be the same. I'm not going to promise a client a number of images that I may not end up being able to deliver on. 



Vtec44 said:


> Yes you are. IMHO, once you've booked 3 weddings you should up your price.


Actually, I really don't want to do that. I am a firm believer that great art doesn't have to be expensive (years of working in non-profit galleries). It kills me to think that some people are paying an arm and a leg for a photographer, and that in a lot of cases that photographer is maybe not all that great but they know they can ask that price because of the market. Or that people are going with terrible photos because the photographer is within their price range, which in my opinion is even worse than the first scenario. Just because you have a lower budget doesn't mean you should be subjected to terrible, or have you life be devoid of, art.   



OGsPhotography said:


> Your website crashes my phone


That sucks! What's your phone/OS? It's a Wix site optimized for mobile and no one else had expressed that issue, so I'm kind of curious. 

@gryphonslair99  Once I start actually receiving money, those things will be taken care of.


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## KmH

PersistentNomad said:


> @gryphonslair99  Once I start actually receiving money, those things will be taken care of.


That is probably not acceptable to the town you live in, nor to the state of Connecticut who expect to get every penny of sales and use tax owed to them.
DRS: Businesses-still menu


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## table1349

A business sets those things up before it receives it's first dime.  Something happens at that first gig retro-insurance to back up and cover you from a lawsuit or damage to your gear does not exist.   The old saying, you have to spend money to make money is absolutely true.

FYI you site does not open on my Mac or my iPhone 7.


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## Designer

There is something about the hotlink that makes it "touchy".  I had to copy and paste it without the parentheses punctuation for it to work. 

(from your website) _"You will receive an online gallery of your images for easy sharing and download, as well as a flash drive with pre-sized, fully edited images for print."_

Is this a thing nowadays?  I mean; most professionals on here would tell you to not do that.  Don't do that! 

Also your pricing structure is like a buffet; people are going to pick and choose, and eventually someone will ask to substitute some items.  I think you need to sit down with a business consultant to work out your business plan.  The way it is now, you're not going to make any money, and you're leaving money on the table with giving away electronic files.  Also, as Keith mentioned; the proposed deal is too open-ended.  Tighten it up.

Oh, and since everything is on one page (no objection here) you don't need those tabs at the top.


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## The_Traveler

PersistentNomad said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck
> I suggest you add how many edited pictures you give.
> 
> 
> 
> No way! I know every wedding is different no matter how uniform it may seem and that the number of images will probably not always be the same. I'm not going to promise a client a number of images that I may not end up being able to deliver on.
Click to expand...


One of the keys to successful business is managing expectations.
Both you and the client should know in advance what you will deliver.
If you shoot 60 pictures per hour for 10 hours, not an unreasonable amount. 
That's 600 pictures.
Are you going to edit all 600 and deliver them?
How long will that take?
What if you edit the best 200 and the clients want all 600 of them?
What if you pick the best and they ask for pictures they know you took but you didn't include.

These situations need to be covered in advance or every wedding will turn out to be a tussle.


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## Vtec44

PersistentNomad said:


> Actually, I really don't want to do that. I am a firm believer that great art doesn't have to be expensive (years of working in non-profit galleries). It kills me to think that some people are paying an arm and a leg for a photographer, and that in a lot of cases that photographer is maybe not all that great but they know they can ask that price because of the market. Or that people are going with terrible photos because the photographer is within their price range, which in my opinion is even worse than the first scenario. Just because you have a lower budget doesn't mean you should be subjected to terrible, or have you life be devoid of, art.



To each their own I guess.  I'm a big believer in valuing my  work and myself.


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## Gary A.

My opinion, is that you are a professional when others call you one.

Again, my opinion, there is an accountant/legal/tax methodology to determine if you are a "professional" ... as in 50%+ of your income will legally classify as a 'full' time" professional.  Anybody can self declare themselves a pro, (or anything else for that matter). 

And there is "professional" as in your skill level is on par with a professional skill level. That definition is best bestowed by your peers.  Additionally, in my opinion, one of the biggest difference between a pro and a highly skilled hobbyist, is consistency.  Day-in and Day-out and upon demand, the pro will capture the exceptional image.


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## tirediron

OGsPhotography said:


> Your website crashes my phone


There's an issue with the link in the OP.  Try this http://www.emmathurgood.com/.


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## tirediron

I will add another vote for 'get the paperwork done right away'.  Why?  Let's look at a couple of potential situations:  (1)  You're doing an engagement shoot for a wedding client, you've left your tripod laying on the ground and the bride trips over it and falls.  Her clothes are ruined by mud, and she winds up with a chipped tooth and black eye from a rock; is she (a) going to laugh it off and accept your, "Sorry", or (b) leave the set and call a lawyer?  Situation #2:  The local municipal office finds out that you're in business somehow and makes a check, and finds out you have no license.  They're going to want you to get one, and they're probably going to impose a penalty.  AND... they're can impose a penalty based on a percentage of what you could have earned since you started.  Not what you did, but what they feel you could have..  The $1000 for insurance & licenses is starting to seem like a pretty good deal now...

On to your 'site.  First and foremost:  People are lazy.  I mean really lazy.  They are not going to scroll.  Configure your 'site so that one page displays more-or-less completely on a typical monitor.  The vertical cascading style is fine for a personal blog, NOT for a professional website.

Change your bio image and write-up.  I get that you want to be seen as cool and modern and that's great, but of far more importance, you want to be seen as professional.  Remember that even today, parents of the couple often have a big part to play in picking out photographers, flowers, etc.  Chances are, they're not going to be overly impressed.  They are not going to want a LOUD photographer, nor one who is interested in having a 'good time' at their wedding.  You're there to work.  To see how this should be done, look at James' 'site (Vtec44).

You have some nice images in your gallery, but it's lacking formals.  While in many cases today, these are not the posed, studio-style images of 30, 40 or more years ago, they're still a critical component of many weddings, and the bride (and more importantly) the mother of the bride want to know that the bride is going to look good on her wedding day.  You have nothing to show that.

Your pricing needs some work.  The prices seem low IMO, but I don't know the area or economics, so...  on to the important things.  LOSE the whole "a zillion edited images on a flash drive" thing.  Let's assume you're booked for a full day wedding and you wind up with 500 images to process (an optimistically low number) and each image, takes on average two minutes to process (again low), that's 16 1/2 hours of processing, plus the 10 hours at the event, plus, let's say four hours of prep/recce time.  That means you're working for something like $29.50 an hour.  That's a decent wage if you make it 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year.  As a newbie wedding photographer?  Probably not going to happen!

You are leaving thousands and thousands of dollars on table by giving away digital files.  The wedding price is for your time; essentially the creative fee.  Product is extra.  As well, what happens when the bride gets these printed at Wal-mart (and by the way, how do you know what size(s) they will want- your "print ready" files are going to get cropped all sorts of crazy ways) and they look like crap.  She shows them to her friend who is looking for a wedding photographer and the first thing she says is, "Well, I'm not using Emma, those colours are awful!"

Your $150 album... how many pages?  Have you ever put an album together before?  Unless this is <10 pages you're losing money!

Overall you're off to a good start, but there's room for a number of improvements IMO.


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## sashbar

You tax inspector will decide whether you are a professional of not  That is where this question addressed.


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## vintagesnaps

That's good information and advice from John (Tirediron).

I think the pricing seems low but the quality of work needs to come up to a competitive level to be able to charge more. Look up _professional, established_ wedding photographers in your region of the country (not the people with cameras listing themselves on Facebook and craigslist) and see what their work looks like and how they're priced. Otherwise you'd be likely to keep attracting customers who want cheap (that they'll probably edit themselves).

There's lots to learn, try resources on http://asmp.org or PPA. Find our for your state what you need to do; my state doesn't require a license but many apparently do, but where I live it's required to report income at a certain level.

In the meantime, you'll probably need to look at other job options and then see if you can work on building up a photography business in a way that can be successful.


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## PersistentNomad

Whoa, I should have clarified. When something officially gets booked and I *know* I'm going to get money, then I will take care of that. So far, the hooper is a trade deal and there isn't a confirmed money on the table thing. I've worked with clients in numerous industries long enough to know that talk is cheap and nothing may come of anything. With that said, I have already done the research on what I need to do and am ready to hit the go button pretty much at any moment. Fortunately in CT the process is fairly quick for this industry and all it requires to start is actually having filed. 

As for "prices too low" and "leaving money on the table" I think that's a personal business philosophy that perhaps will change later, or perhaps won't. I pretty much know I'm never going to be the photographer that's trying to actively sell printed images. And when I was planning a wedding I was super annoyed that there are still so many photographers out there that don't give clients' rights to any images under any circumstances. I'm really drawn to the idea of being an affordable shoot and share photographer and I think that is informed by my time working in NP galleries. But @vintagesnaps makes an excellent point because right now my available portfolio doesn't reflect an ability to charge more. 

@tirediron It is lacking formals because my portfolio is comprised of images were I was the 2nd photographer wrangling family members during those times, not actually getting to take the shots.


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## tirediron

PersistentNomad said:


> @tirediron It is lacking formals because my portfolio is comprised of images were I was the 2nd photographer wrangling family members during those times, not actually getting to take the shots.


Fair enough, but why not try and get those:  Check out MM and see if you can get some TFP images, or check out Craig's List for couples needing (Not wanting, but needing) a budget wedding photographer.  

I admire your intent to be 'the affordable photographer', and if you have the alternate income that will allow you to do that, great.  Ignore pretty much everything I said, HOWEVER... if you do feel that at some point you might want to actually try and make a living out of this, than it's very, very hard to go from that to full-on retail.  One suggestion I might offer is to bring your prices more in line with your area, but offer discounts on an individual basis.


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## PersistentNomad

Also, thanks to everyone for calling attention to the fact that I still had "flash drive" written. Shortly after building I decided to go exclusively with PASS, which a friend uses and is pretty amazing. It also is a way for clients to order prints (very affordably and which I apparently get a percentage of).
Speaking of which, when I say "pre-sized" what I really mean is pre-proportioned, since the vast majority of ready-made frames follow the same proportions. But clients don't know what "pre-proportioned" means. But they do know pre-sized, and I have seen the wrath of more than a few brides who were SUPER pissed when I told them it was going to be $250 to custom frame the beautiful non-standard size portrait that they got from their photographer because they can only buy from the photographer and the photographer doesn't give two hoots about the cost to frame after they've printed.


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## KmH

PersistentNomad said:


> since the vast majority of ready-made frames follow the same proportions.


We wish!


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## table1349

I will leave you with this one though.  Your business model, as presented on your web page is not a new idea nor is it one that have see as being profitable.  $90 and hour for 10 hours of wedding plus all the time for properly post processing all the images taken I think you will find will not be cost effective unless you like giving your time away.  

As for changing your prices or pricing model in mid stream later on.  This in all likelihood will alienate the type of clients you were serving and the kind of clients who would possibly be interested in you new model will have doubts as you will already have been established.


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## Designer

PersistentNomad said:


> .. it was going to be $250 to custom frame the beautiful non-standard size portrait ...


Yet another profit center going by the wayside.  If I were going into the business, I would also be making and selling custom matting and framing along with prints.  Standard proportions or custom, whatever the customer wants.  But that's me.


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## The_Traveler

I can only speak from my own experience, never having done weddings, but I've done lots of 'events';
I usually charged little or nothing because I looked at it as a pro bono exercise to support the small organizations I did this for.

Last year I was asked to shoot a dinner for a non-profit at a local hotel _pro bono_ for their use as ongoing PR and web stuff. After getting to the dinner and seeing the way they spent money on flowers, table favors, etc, I began to feel used.

How will you feel earning little, almost giving your effort away, when the wedding spends big bucks on food, liquor, etc.?

I think you would be better off displaying higher prices and giving 'special prices' for the first year until you understand how the business goes.


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## Vtec44

The_Traveler said:


> Last year I was asked to shoot a dinner for a non-profit at a local hotel _pro bono_ for their use as ongoing PR and web stuff. After getting to the dinner and seeing the way they spent money on flowers, table favors, etc, I began to feel used.
> 
> How will you feel earning little, almost giving your effort away, when the wedding spends big bucks on food, liquor, etc.?



Yep.  I will do free shoot for deserving couples on case by case basis but I have never announced it.  People always tell me their wedding is low budget or their photography budget is low and all that good stuff but then you see open bar, 18 people wedding party, huge guest count, expensive flowers, multi tier cake, etc.   The point is that if people feel it's important and see the value in something, they will find a way to pay for it.  Obviously some people don't see the value in photography, but I'm not go to make sacrifices of my own so  someone can pay for steak and lobster dinner for 250 guests, then have a nice honeymoon in Bora Bora.

To each their own I guess.


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## SquarePeg

Not a pro but I do live in New England and have seen first hand the cost of weddings around here.  I have to agree that your prices are much too low - you could easily double these and still be "affordable" by most standards.


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## robbins.photo

tirediron said:


> The correct answer, in case anyone was wondering, is "none".



So you shoot the wedding, get paid, and don't give them any pictures.  Say... you know that sounds like something I could do... lol.

But ya, point taken, probably a bad idea to obligate yourself to a set number of edited photos in writing.


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## PersistentNomad

The_Traveler said:


> How will you feel earning little, almost giving your effort away, when the wedding spends big bucks on food, liquor, etc.?


I just don't have an issue with that. 1- it's not my place to judge or question how couples prioritize the facets of their wedding and the money they spend on those things. 2- I know that in a lot of the other facet industries for weddings there is very little wiggle room for what they can spend. Food and drink is either expensive or astronomical, there is no affordable. Venues are the same way, unless you go for places that aren't primarily/typically function venues.

Also, @The_Traveler, you may be surprised at how much a non-profit didn't pay for that expensive dinner. I've been a part of numerous fundraisers where we had elaborate spreads and outlandish entertainment, all of which was provided by the vendor as a sponsorship of the event, for which they received commensurate recognition in all event promotions, and depending on the monetary value of the service a high end membership benefit, logo recognition on non-event promo materials, and often a ticket suite or entire table at the event for guests of their choosing. Not to mention a super sweet tax write off. If you're shooting no-cost for NP's, for sure hand them an invoice indicating the value of your donation of your service and ask for a tax-deduction receipt. They should not even question it because it's no skin off their nose, it's an in-kind donation. And get the recognition that goes along with the level of your donation/sponsor

EDIT: you have to be very specific that your donation isn't just for your time and services, because those are not tax-deductible. But photographers do provide a product: the images, whether it's prints or digital files, so you have to make sure that the invoice and deduction letter you receive indicate that your product is what was donated.


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## PersistentNomad

robbins.photo said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> The correct answer, in case anyone was wondering, is "none".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you shoot the wedding, get paid, and don't give them any pictures.  Say... you know that sounds like something I could do... lol.
> 
> But ya, point taken, probably a bad idea to obligate yourself to a set number of edited photos in writing.
Click to expand...


I think what Tirediron meant was you never give away a digital file, which is just not my style.


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## Designer

I can see we're not going to change your mind, and I'll stop right after this:

Your question was "can I now call myself a professional photographer?"

As someone wrote; (paraphrasing) "anyone can call themselves anything they want" , but the general consensus was that a "professional photographer" earns most, if not all, of his income from photography.  If that continues to hold true for you, then by all means, you are a professional photographer.


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## SquarePeg

I know your original question was a bit rhetorical but, IMO, the minute you earn even $1 from your photos, you go from amateur to pro.


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## pixmedic

Designer said:


> I can see we're not going to change your mind, and I'll stop right after this:
> 
> Your question was "can I now call myself a professional photographer?"
> 
> As someone wrote; (paraphrasing) "anyone can call themselves anything they want" , but the general consensus was that a "professional photographer" earns most, if not all, of his income from photography.  If that continues to hold true for you, then by all means, you are a professional photographer.




ive never understood the reasoning that % of income = "professional"...
how does that work exactly?
are people that work two jobs NOT a professional at the job they do less?

when I finish my RN, but continue to do flight part time as a paramedic, am I no longer a professional paramedic since i will be earning
much less than 50% of my total income from that field? what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?

the money=pro argument makes zero rational sense when broken down.


a professional in sports is anyone who is earning money from it. theres no mention of how much money needs to be earned, only that there is income. 
which is why college players dont "make money"  *cough cough*.


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## table1349

pixmedic said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can see we're not going to change your mind, and I'll stop right after this:
> 
> Your question was "can I now call myself a professional photographer?"
> 
> As someone wrote; (paraphrasing) "anyone can call themselves anything they want" , but the general consensus was that a "professional photographer" earns most, if not all, of his income from photography.  If that continues to hold true for you, then by all means, you are a professional photographer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ive never understood the reasoning that % of income = "professional"...
> how does that work exactly?
> are people that work two jobs NOT a professional at the job they do less?
> 
> when I finish my RN, but continue to do flight part time as a paramedic, am I no longer a professional paramedic since i will be earning
> much less than 50% of my total income from that field? what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?
> 
> the money=pro argument makes zero rational sense when broken down.
> 
> 
> a professional in sports is anyone who is earning money from it. theres no mention of how much money needs to be earned, only that there is income.
> which is why college players dont "make money"  *cough cough*.
Click to expand...

I can't answer that question but I can state unequivocally that you are a Professional dead ferret keeper.


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## Designer

pixmedic said:


> ..what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?


Yup, you just happen to be in the neighborhood when there is a horrible traffic accident, and you step up and proclaim yourself to be an amateur paramedic, and ask if you can administer some first aid.  

"Would you folks like some free first aid?  I can't accept any cash payment for my services, but we can talk about any collectable sewing machines you might have around the house."

Or ferret food.  

But seriously, Jason, that scenario is a bit different.  

In the case of photography, if I claim a $35 "fee" for a photo, how does that make me a professional photographer?  

Or even if it was $250?  If at the conclusion of the transaction, I walk away with some money, how am I now a professional photographer?  I'm still just a guy with a camera who pocketed some cash.  

Even if I decide that I now own a "business" of photography, and report the income on my tax return, a piddling amount of money isn't going to qualify me as a Professional photographer.  I'm still just a guy with a part-time photography business.


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## pixmedic

Designer said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, you just happen to be in the neighborhood when there is a horrible traffic accident, and you step up and proclaim yourself to be an amateur paramedic, and ask if you can administer some first aid.
> 
> "Would you folks like some free first aid?  I can't accept any cash payment for my services, but we can talk about any collectable sewing machines you might have around the house."
> 
> Or ferret food.
> 
> But seriously, Jason, that scenario is a bit different.
> 
> In the case of photography, if I claim a $35 "fee" for a photo, how does that make me a professional photographer?
> 
> Or even if it was $250?  If at the conclusion of the transaction, I walk away with some money, how am I now a professional photographer?  I'm still just a guy with a camera who pocketed some cash.
> 
> Even if I decide that I now own a "business" of photography, and report the income on my tax return, a piddling amount of money isn't going to qualify me as a Professional photographer.  I'm still just a guy with a part-time photography business.
Click to expand...

So your saying there's no such thing as a part time professional?


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## table1349

pixmedic said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, you just happen to be in the neighborhood when there is a horrible traffic accident, and you step up and proclaim yourself to be an amateur paramedic, and ask if you can administer some first aid.
> 
> "Would you folks like some free first aid?  I can't accept any cash payment for my services, but we can talk about any collectable sewing machines you might have around the house."
> 
> Or ferret food.
> 
> But seriously, Jason, that scenario is a bit different.
> 
> In the case of photography, if I claim a $35 "fee" for a photo, how does that make me a professional photographer?
> 
> Or even if it was $250?  If at the conclusion of the transaction, I walk away with some money, how am I now a professional photographer?  I'm still just a guy with a camera who pocketed some cash.
> 
> Even if I decide that I now own a "business" of photography, and report the income on my tax return, a piddling amount of money isn't going to qualify me as a Professional photographer.  I'm still just a guy with a part-time photography business.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So your saying there's no such thing as a part time professional?
Click to expand...

Nope, dead ferrets are a full time job.


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## pixmedic

Designer said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..what do i become then, an amateur paramedic?
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, you just happen to be in the neighborhood when there is a horrible traffic accident, and you step up and proclaim yourself to be an amateur paramedic, and ask if you can administer some first aid.
> 
> "Would you folks like some free first aid?  I can't accept any cash payment for my services, but we can talk about any collectable sewing machines you might have around the house."
> 
> Or ferret food.
> 
> But seriously, Jason, that scenario is a bit different.
> 
> In the case of photography, if I claim a $35 "fee" for a photo, how does that make me a professional photographer?
> 
> Or even if it was $250?  If at the conclusion of the transaction, I walk away with some money, how am I now a professional photographer?  I'm still just a guy with a camera who pocketed some cash.
> 
> Even if I decide that I now own a "business" of photography, and report the income on my tax return, a piddling amount of money isn't going to qualify me as a Professional photographer.  I'm still just a guy with a part-time photography business.
Click to expand...



what if you made $30k a year working part time as a photographer? 60k? 
what amount makes you a professional? who decides that?
if you can make a lot money doing crappy work with entry level gear are you still a pro?
when we had our child, our very special needs child, my wife stopped doing photography full time in order to be able to stay at home
to take care of our son. she didn't stop completely however, and we still did the occasional wedding and portrait work. 
did she somehow become less professional overnight just because she worked less?

i would wager a guess that there are plenty of photographers who do the same thing. 
plenty of excellent photographers who simply dont want to give up their day jobs, but are no less legal, and provide
no less a quality product than any other "full time" photographer, and therefor, regardless of how often they work or how much money they make, are a professional photographer. 

I am sure there are part time photographers making more money than plenty of legit full timers. 
there is no working time requirement to run a business, other than what is needed to get the job done. no minimum profit margin other than your overhead...no requirement at all, state or federal, that says you have to make XXX amount of money to be a business. 
so how can you break down "professional" into a number that you cant even name?


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## Vtec44

One of the requirements to be a member of NPS ( Nikon Professional) is that you have to be a full time photographer.  I'm not sure if that means anything hahahah


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## pixmedic

Vtec44 said:


> One of the requirements to be a member of NPS ( Nikon Professional) is that you have to be a full time photographer.  I'm not sure if that means anything hahahah


Kinda....
But NPS makes its own rules governing what they consider "professional".
It's strictly subjective since there's no official state certification for photographers.
But if you want in their club, you have to play by their rules.

NPS also has specific gear requirements, which are aimed more at the journalism/wedding and wildlife photographers than studio guys.


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## The_Traveler

PersistentNomad said:


> 1- *it's not my place to judge or question how couples prioritize the facets of their wedding and the money they spend on those thi*ngs.



Yah, well it is mine.
If they can spend $2000 for flowers that don't last the evening or other things that are ephemeral, they can pay me. My time is valuable and I won't give it away to people who don't value it in return.



PersistentNomad said:


> 2- I know that in a lot of the other facet industries for weddings there is very little wiggle room for what they can spend. Food and drink is either expensive or astronomical, there is no affordable. Venues are the same way, unless you go for places that aren't primarily/typically function venues



I ran a non-profit in Washington DC for 5 years and married off two daughters plus did 3 other rehearsal dinners for the boys. I have some idea of what things cost. If you don't think you are as important as the flowers or the imprinted take-aways, don't do it.

I don't consider myself as a social welfare organization for the poor. People can choose to spend what they want. I am really careful about what I give away in terms of time and, tbh, the tax write-off is trivial.


----------



## Vtec44

The_Traveler said:


> Yah, well it is mine.
> If they can spend $2000 for flowers that don't last the evening or other things that are ephemeral, they can pay me. My time is valuable and I won't give it away to people who don't value it in return.



I try not to judge people! LOL  I think you and I share the same sentiment.  We want to work with those who value our work.

For me, I want clients to come to me because they absolutely love what I do and share the same approach to wedding photography, not because I'm the cheapest around.   I will go the extra miles in return for them.   Most of the weddings I shot are smaller, around 100 guests, but the clients put in a lot of thoughts/care in every little details.  A few times this year, my photography fee is probably more than the entire wedding itself and the clients absolutely love their photos.

To each their own.  I just do what works for me


----------



## Advanced Photo

PersistentNomad said:


> Okay, so this post is mostly just to brag on myself with people who know how it feels to be starting out, cause I'm feeling super jazzed right now!
> 
> Early last month I made the decision to start trying to make money with my photos, largely because I want to upgrade my gear and I just can't justify that unless I start making it pay for itself. I've worked as a second shooter for a photog friend of mine a few times and been the photographer for a few friend's weddings, and I love the work. I know it's easy to get burned out on it, but I think that has to do a lot with pacing yourself and not saying "yes" to every job that comes up.
> 
> So... I built a website with my limited portfolio (emmathurgood.com, c&c welcome, link fixed), and started advertising on two sites, Thumbtack and wedding.com. In just two weeks I've had six client inquiries!! What? And the weird part is that one of them actually found me on a google search. Double WHAT?! _I can't even find me on a google search!
> _
> So, one of the clients has already said they want to book, so I've sent the contract and I'm awaiting a deposit. I have two consultations set up for this week, a shoot with a modern hooper for this week, and I'm working out a session time for an engagement shoot in the next month or so. In addition to all this, I took up a job at a retail studio where I am already killing it and my new boss seems pretty pleased with my ability.
> 
> So what do you think, am I a professional photographer now?


Of course you are a professional. And, as all professional photographers, you have some room to grow. It's really sad to see members who try to discourage the art and science of photography by saying things like "Unless you make at least 1.5 million a year, you are not as good as I am and certainly not a professional." Rubbish.
If you take a picture with a camera, you are a photographer. If it sells for any type of remuneration, you are a professional photographer, it's that simple according to the language we are all using.
I see a lot of posts that in effect say, I am young and want to change the world with my art, and a lot of replies saying you suck.
It's obvious to me that the status quo is not a good thing for the art of photography, it's trying to suppress new ideas and new ways of doing business just to keep itself from having to compete with the same services being offered for less, and in some cases, better services. I say, go for it, shake up the established photographic business model and help to do away with the status quo.
I take photos and sell the prints, big prints on canvass and on museum quality papers and I make a great deal of money for my efforts, enough that I only have to work a few days a month to make 6 figures. I am lucky. I am also smart enough to know I am not doing anything that anyone else couldn't do, and I think there are a lot of so called pro photographers that have lost sight of that fact and have let other peoples comments about their work cloud their judgement and they start to believe the hype. They think that they are somehow doing something no one else can do. Pish.
If they died tomorrow the world as a whole would not lose anything it couldn't replace. They are not indispensable, and neither am I, I just realize it and thank my lucky stars for the blessings I have received.
Some photographers need a lesson in humility.

And to you, Emma, way to go. Don't let the nay sayers stop you. Don't get your legal advice or business advice from a forum, seek professional services near you where you can meet one on one and discuss what you want and how you want to achieve it.


----------



## vintagesnaps

C'mon, the ferrets just happen to need 23+ hours of sleep a day...

It seems like once you're getting paid, you probably can't really consider yourself to be just an amateur or hobbyist anymore... but then again, people can call themselves whatever they want apparently, it doesn't mean someone is doing professional quality work just because they call themselves pros.

Unfortunately for photography as a skill or as an art, or as a job/profession, anyone with a camera can list themselves as a photographer, shoot a bunch of mediocre photos, keep it cheap and get customers. It devalues photography and makes it hard for photographers to make money and brings down the profession I think.

I don't think it has to be full or part time to be considered professional, and the same for other jobs (such as my work with families and children, we had part time staff that had to have the same licensure as those of us who worked fulltime).

I've read about calls for possibly someday there being some sort of qualification standards for working, professional photographers, which I think might be a good way to set an industry standard. Not that it would necessarily be anything required for a photographer to work and charge money but maybe a way for someone to show they meet standards in providing good quality professional photography. (NPS being mentioned made me think of PPA's program that's their own internal system of showing that a photographer demonstrates a particular skill level. I've seen it displayed on photographers' websites to show that they meet those standards.)

I think it could be possible to offer somewhat more budget friendly options, and price at the lower end of the going rate in your area; most people seem to start out that way and work up toward the higher end. But there's a difference between doing charity work and offering a variety of package options - everyone has a wedding budget and they need to prioritize how they want to spend their money. Just because a prospective customer may be on a tighter budget than others hardly means they're at poverty level and so financially needy that a photographer should shoot their wedding cheap or for free (unless it's a particular situation that a photographer chooses to do it pro bono).

I think it might be worth considering other options for income for now since hours were cut at the current job, and work on developing skills and building up toward a good professional reputation and potential career. It would be good to learn what's involved in doing this - try PPA or http://asmp.org for resources.


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## table1349

vintagesnaps said:


> C'mon, the ferrets just happen to need *25+* hours of sleep a day...


FIFY


----------



## table1349

While the business model for photography is changing there are some things that do not change.  Economics 101 is simple.  If it costs more to produce a product than what you sell it for you are not going to be in business long.  

While $90 an hours sounds good for a 10 hour shoot, you can pretty much double that to post process the images to their best.  So $30 an hour doesn't sound to bad either, except when you work for someone and they pay you $30 and hour you aren't shouldering the costs of business, you are one of the costs of business.  

Some of the thing to consider from the strictly business side. 

Incorporation/LLC fees if applicable.  If you don't and something happens everything you own, EVERYTHING is subject to a lawsuit. 

Attorney to properly set up the business.  They charge per hour damn near what you are charging for an entire 10 hour wedding. 

City, County, State licensing and fees if necessary.

Liability Insurance for you and your clients.  

Gear insurance.  Home owners policy etc. will not cover if the gear is used for business.  

Accountant to handle the financial end of the business.  

Car/vehicle Insurance.  Most people don't think about this one but once you transition using a vehicle from personal use, going to and from a place of work that you do not own is still personal use, and you become the business owner the insurance company is not going to cover your vehicle for business use.  

These are just a few.  

As for the whole "Professional" aspect.  In the world of Photography the word Professional isn't worth the letters its spelled with.   If you can take a photo and find some fool to buy it you are a professional.  What does matter is being a Competent photographer.  That is much tougher.  Competence has nothing to do with making money and everything to do with truly understanding photography from all angles.   Competence is a life long acquisition process that only stops once you are dead, or just too damn lazy to care.


----------



## PersistentNomad

Whoa, this thread blew up while I was soothing a sick baby. It's a great discussion, but I have no idea what ferrets have to do with the price of tea in China. 

In other news, according to some people I could have been calling myself a professional photographer for nearly ten years now, since I've been paid for providing photographic services of some kind or another at least once a year for that long. 

I personally don't subscribe to the idea that I have to make buku bucks to be professional (or support myself). I set my prices based on my philosophy, situation and what I think are fairly achievable goals with the marketing plan I have in place. I'm lucky enough to have the option of being a stay at home mom if I want.

I don't feel like I'm giving my time or craft away at these prices for this point in my photographic career. I've spent a long time helping artists hone their craft and their business, including the pricing of their work. There is no standard for pricing, all artists' work is priced through a very complicated matrix of factors, though being a service photographer is a slightly less convoluted matrix. 

And above all, that's still kind of how I think of myself. I'm an emerging photographer (artist) as I was once an emerging curator. Just because it was part time hours or I wasn't making enough money to live on doesn't mean I wasn't still a professional, I was just an emerging professional.


----------



## Vtec44

PersistentNomad said:


> There is no standard for pricing, all artists' work is priced through a very complicated matrix of factors, though being a service photographer is a slightly less convoluted matrix.



Pricing can be incredibly simple:  supply and demand.  However, like with anything artistic and intangible, creating that demand is the hardest.


----------



## vintagesnaps

I think there is an industry standard, a range of pricing. In my area it varies somewhat if it's a gallery or art center in the city or suburbs, or in smaller towns in outlying areas. A more well known photographer or artist usually is pricing higher than average. In high end galleries in major cities I think the pricing is way higher and a different ballgame as far as pricing and being an artist that would be represented there. 

Before I started doing submissions to juried exhibits, I'd been going to various art shows and openings, etc. and the neighborhood art centers in my region that are nonprofit retain a percentage of sales towards maintaining the building, hiring staff, etc. to offer programs to the community. But the pricing is usually within the going range for prints, pottery, etc. etc. regardless of if it's being sold at a small gallery or a nonprofit art center. If photographers or other artists just pull a price out of thin air and/or underprice, it seems like that would be something of a detriment to nonprofit centers if they want to continue to operate and serve their community.

Maybe I've misunderstood your situation, and sometimes photographers donate time or services, but to underprice for a customer just because someone doesn't budget for photography for their wedding doesn't make sense to me. That would seem to say you're aspiring to be a photographer who is cheap, not one that's going to be recommended because you're a good photographer. 

It's not like photographers ever for the most part have exactly gotten rich, but now good photographers are struggling to stay in business because of all the people with cameras who seem misguided at best (and now are fizzling out as photographers because they weren't set up in business properly and are dealing with all kinds of problems). I just think it could be misleading getting bookings/offers quickly because you might be appealing to the people who just want cheap. I don't think that would be a good indicator of long term success.


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## Piccell

You can sell one item a year for 100,000.00 or 20,000 items for 50 dollars, you make the same amount.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> You can sell one item a year for 100,000.00 or 20,000 items for 50 dollars, you make the same amount.



With weddings, you have to account for overhead cost like communication time, editing time, additional labor (assistants/second shooters), transportation, gas, etc.  So 10 weddings a year at 10k each may or may not have the same overhead cost as 50 weddings at 2k each.


----------



## Piccell

I was referring to the amount of money you make, obviously that would be the net, not the gross.


----------



## PersistentNomad

vintagesnaps said:


> That would seem to say you're aspiring to be a photographer who is cheap, not one that's going to be recommended because you're a good photographer.


I actually aspire to be both affordable and well recommended.  

As far as pricing artwork for gallery settings, it's a much more complicated process to determine (particularly for non-photographic artists because of materials) and yes there is "a range" but it's a huge range. You have to factor in your particular medium & style's demand; the demand for art in general in the areas you exhibit; are you one of many or singular; the cost of creation; how prolific you are; how recognized you are locally, nationally, internationally and (lastly and leastly) size. For profit galleries will typically let you know what they want to sell your work for, but a lot of non-profit spaces don't because they aren't dealing with a standard stable of artists, it's always changing and so is their buying public.


----------



## Piccell

PersistentNomad said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would seem to say you're aspiring to be a photographer who is cheap, not one that's going to be recommended because you're a good photographer.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually aspire to be both affordable and well recommended.
> 
> As far as pricing artwork for gallery settings, it's a much more complicated process to determine (particularly for non-photographic artists because of materials) and yes there is "a range" but it's a huge range. You have to factor in your particular medium & style's demand; the demand for art in general in the areas you exhibit; are you one of many or singular; the cost of creation; how prolific you are; how recognized you are locally, nationally, internationally and (lastly and leastly) size. For profit galleries will typically let you know what they want to sell your work for, but a lot of non-profit spaces don't because they aren't dealing with a standard stable of artists, it's always changing and so is their buying public.
Click to expand...

lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> I was referring to the amount of money you make, obviously that would be the net, not the gross.



Obviously.   However, you're working much harder and spending more time while getting back less in 1 business model vs the other.  So, if you believe it's the "same" then you're in for a big surprise.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.



It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.


----------



## Piccell

Vtec44 said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.
Click to expand...

lol Tell Sam Walton that.


----------



## Piccell

Vtec44 said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was referring to the amount of money you make, obviously that would be the net, not the gross.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously.   However, you're working much harder and spending more time while getting back less in 1 business model vs the other.  So, if you believe it's the "same" then you're in for a big surprise.
Click to expand...

Please read the post again, I said nothing about the amount of work, I only was talking about the money. Some people feel that there is honor and dignity in hard work. Some don't. It sounds like the OP is of the former type, whereas you might be of the latter.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> lol Tell Sam Walton that.



Dollar Tree, 99 cent stores, and yes Walmart all have the same business model.  It's nothing new.  Look at the clients they attract.  If that's your demographic and business model then go for it.  Theres nothing wrong with it.


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## vintagesnaps

I don't know how you take could pride in your work and then devalue it, that doesn't make sense to me. It seems to say you don't think all that well of yourself if you think your work is that worthless. I know my work is good and has value. Getting accepted into juried exhibits if nothing else confirmed to me my photos are good enough to be hanging on the wall of a gallery or art center. I've put my time and talent and effort into my photography, I wouldn't throw that away by selling it cheap.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> Please read the post again, I said nothing about the amount of work, I only was talking about the money. Some people feel that there is honor and dignity in hard work. Some don't. It sounds like the OP is of the former type, whereas you might be of the latter.



Since you don't get it, let me say it straight out.  Simple mind set like that, ie making the same money, will get you in trouble without taking other things like over head expenses into consideration.   I would rather the OP come straight out and say that she priced her work that way because her portfolio is lacking.  I'd love to see her keep her pricing exactly the same in 5 years, shooting 25-30 weddings a year.

I work 18 hours a day and 7 days a week.  I absolutely love it.  I charge accordingly because I want my business to be sustainable, and for me to continue this many more years to come.  My work has been published in numerous magazines and I still hustle just as hard as the first day I started.  I also teach people to do the same that I do.  I'm not sure why some people think charging so low is hard working and dignity, or charging higher is not.  That's just weird LOL  If anything, I worked my butt off to get where I am and I'm pretty damn proud.


----------



## The_Traveler

Low cost weddings simply don't throw off enough money to allow for technical improvements. How does one buy backup equipment, more lighting, pro level lenses?
It's subsistence work, where the profit is enough to keep you alive but not to grow in any way. 
It's not just whether you can shoot successfully but the kind of work you can deliver.


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## tirediron

The_Traveler said:


> ...It's subsistence work, where the profit is enough to keep you alive but not to grow in any way. ...


Actually Lew, I'd argue that it's not even that; it's subsistence work until you have to buy a new body or main lens, then all of a sudden you're in the hole.  A big, big hole, which was the point of my post earlier about having sufficient additional income to sustain this methodology.


----------



## table1349

Piccell said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol Tell Sam Walton that.
Click to expand...

LOL, Tell that to all the mom & pop stores that have been put out of business by Sam Walton and his lawyers who bully and force small suppliers to make products for them at ridiculously low prices.   Walmart is one of companies with the highest rate of child and sub paid labor by their manufacturers.  Explain to them the "Honor" Sam Walton and his company has.


----------



## vintagesnaps

It occurred to me that if you have to ask, you probably aren't. At least, I think when you've reached a certain status, you know it.

I remember when I was younger at some point thinking that 'someday' I'd do something with my photography. I didn't yet know what, but I knew that much. When you get to that point that you've accomplished whatever it is, I think you know it.


----------



## Tabe

I don't have a ton to add to this discussion but will say this:

1) IMHO, if you make any money at something, you're a pro.  
2) Your bio pic on your site is a turnoff.  It just doesn't fit the work you're trying to do.
3) Parts of your site get flagged by content filters and don't load or just crash.  And the long scrolling single page layout is not a good idea.

I wish you much luck with your endeavor.

Signed,
Definitely a hack, not a pro


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## webestang64

*Definition of professional*

1a :  of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b :  engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) :  characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession(2) :  exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace


2a :  participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a _professional_ golfer>b :  having a particular profession as a permanent career <a _professional_ soldier>c :  engaged in by persons receiving financial return <_professional_ football>


3:  following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a _professional_ patriot>


----------



## Advanced Photo

tirediron said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...It's subsistence work, where the profit is enough to keep you alive but not to grow in any way. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Lew, I'd argue that it's not even that; it's subsistence work until you have to buy a new body or main lens, then all of a sudden you're in the hole.  A big, big hole, which was the point of my post earlier about having sufficient additional income to sustain this methodology.
Click to expand...

The OP did say that the photography was filling a want, not a need. So she can charge whatever she wants to, put all the proceeds into an account and when she has saved up enough, buy some new gear. It's all a luxury and not to pay bills. It's a way to have an interest that pays for itself instead of costing her money.


----------



## PersistentNomad

@vintagesnaps I do think my work has value. However, I am cognizant of the fact that my work isn't terrible, but it's also not top-tier. When I set these prices, I felt like they were fair for what many clients are looking for and were commensurate with the quality of work and what I personally feel I need to get out of it. 

As for having to ask meaning I'm probably not one, I was asking a little tongue in cheek and I hope that is being recognized. As I said in the OP, I was just excited that I'm taking the steps and that there are already responses and inquiries. 

Re: the Wally World rhetoric, I'm not trying to compete by having low prices and steal jobs from higher end photogs because I'm cheap. But, when I was looking there was definitely a gap in the market for decent, affordable photogs. So many couples now are trying to keep their weddings under $10-15k, and if a photographer is charging 20% of a wedding's budget, there are a lot of people who will forgo the photography altogether if they can't find someone who they can afford and still makes decent work. Basically, I'm just trying to be the vendor that I was looking for and couldn't find.


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## Piccell

It sounds like you are taking Gandhi's advice and being the change you wish to see in the world. Well done.


----------



## Piccell

gryphonslair99 said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol Tell Sam Walton that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL, Tell that to all the mom & pop stores that have been put out of business by Sam Walton and his lawyers who bully and force small suppliers to make products for them at ridiculously low prices.   Walmart is one of companies with the highest rate of child and sub paid labor by their manufacturers.  Explain to them the "Honor" Sam Walton and his company has.
Click to expand...

What do the failed businesses have to do with the success of Walmart?
in 2013 Walmart and the Walmart Foundation donated $1.3 billion in cash and in-kind contributions around the world last year, which makes it one of the most charitable companies in absolute terms.
Walmart brought in $476 billion for revenue in the year that ended Jan. 31, 2014, topping Exxon Mobil in the Fortune 500 for a second year. That’s more than the combined annual revenues of Apple, Target, Amazon, Coca-Cola, Macy’s, and Walt Disney Co.

I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.

I do all my photography for charity, I don't keep any proceeds from my sales of prints and files. There is a reason for that but we don't need to even mention that. There is nothing wrong with giving your work and it's proceeds away for a good cause you believe in.


----------



## tirediron

Piccell said:


> I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.


Ask Martha Stewart about that.


----------



## table1349

Piccell said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol Tell Sam Walton that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL, Tell that to all the mom & pop stores that have been put out of business by Sam Walton and his lawyers who bully and force small suppliers to make products for them at ridiculously low prices.   Walmart is one of companies with the highest rate of child and sub paid labor by their manufacturers.  Explain to them the "Honor" Sam Walton and his company has.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do the failed businesses have to do with the success of Walmart?
> in 2013 Walmart and the Walmart Foundation donated $1.3 billion in cash and in-kind contributions around the world last year, which makes it one of the most charitable companies in absolute terms.
> Walmart brought in $476 billion for revenue in the year that ended Jan. 31, 2014, topping Exxon Mobil in the Fortune 500 for a second year. That’s more than the combined annual revenues of Apple, Target, Amazon, Coca-Cola, Macy’s, and Walt Disney Co.
> 
> I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.
> 
> I do all my photography for charity, I don't keep any proceeds from my sales of prints and files. There is a reason for that but we don't need to even mention that. There is nothing wrong with giving your work and it's proceeds away for a good cause you believe in.
Click to expand...

The New Way That Walmart Is Ruining America's Small Towns

Opinion: Study shows Walmart kills small biz

Why Bad News for Walmart Is Good News for Small Town, USA

What It Really Costs When Walmart Comes to Town



Piccell said:


> I do all my photography for charity, I don't keep any proceeds from my sales of prints and files. There is a reason for that but we don't need to even mention that.



Then why did you mention it???


----------



## Piccell

gryphonslair99 said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol I don't think they are mutually exclusive.  Heck if someone is doing great work and is charging less they will be more highly recommended than someone doing great work and charging more money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great at the beginning, until you come to a cross road where demand is higher than supply.  There is always someone who's willing to do it cheaper.  Using price to compete is a race to the bottom that nobody wins in the end.  It's not a new concept.  Remember this post and come back to tell me that I'm wrong in 5 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol Tell Sam Walton that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL, Tell that to all the mom & pop stores that have been put out of business by Sam Walton and his lawyers who bully and force small suppliers to make products for them at ridiculously low prices.   Walmart is one of companies with the highest rate of child and sub paid labor by their manufacturers.  Explain to them the "Honor" Sam Walton and his company has.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do the failed businesses have to do with the success of Walmart?
> in 2013 Walmart and the Walmart Foundation donated $1.3 billion in cash and in-kind contributions around the world last year, which makes it one of the most charitable companies in absolute terms.
> Walmart brought in $476 billion for revenue in the year that ended Jan. 31, 2014, topping Exxon Mobil in the Fortune 500 for a second year. That’s more than the combined annual revenues of Apple, Target, Amazon, Coca-Cola, Macy’s, and Walt Disney Co.
> 
> I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.
> 
> I do all my photography for charity, I don't keep any proceeds from my sales of prints and files. There is a reason for that but we don't need to even mention that. There is nothing wrong with giving your work and it's proceeds away for a good cause you believe in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The New Way That Walmart Is Ruining America's Small Towns
> 
> Opinion: Study shows Walmart kills small biz
> 
> Why Bad News for Walmart Is Good News for Small Town, USA
> 
> What It Really Costs When Walmart Comes to Town
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do all my photography for charity, I don't keep any proceeds from my sales of prints and files. There is a reason for that but we don't need to even mention that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why did you mention it???
Click to expand...

The reason was not mentioned, never mind, you won't get it.


----------



## Piccell

tirediron said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Ask Martha Stewart about that.
Click to expand...

Well there is insider trading that makes money too, but it's still illegal.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> I'd say charging less is a recipe for success as much as anything.



Until demand exceeds supply, and scalability becomes an issue.  All the things I mentioned that you need to be aware of when shooting a lot of weddings and making the "same" money will limit your growth.  There is no life in shooting 50 weddings a year to make the same as someone who shoots only 25.  You can then either adopt the George Street Photo business model or work your butt off and be the next Jose Villa, Jasmine Star, Sue Bryce, etc.  If you go with George Street Photo model, then you're no longer making "art".   People just really need to be honest to themselves with whatever business model they're going with.


----------



## The_Traveler

A series of small comments popped into my head:

bride and groom A:  "I really don't give a crap about pictures, but this person is cheap. What's the difference?"

bride and groom B: "I thought I needed to spend more money on pictures but this person is cheap and as good as most of  the others we've seen. Now we can have an open bar or another day or so on the honeymoon."

wedding photographer: "I don't know what's happening. I've always been pretty busy, not getting rich but doing OK  and all of a sudden, this one photographer is shooting weddings at starvation wages and the clients she doesn't take are just levering my prices down. Man this profession is going to crap."


----------



## PersistentNomad

@The_Traveler, while those first two are probably true and happen more often than you think across more than just photography, I think the last statement is over-embellished. There are geographical limitations to someone being able to do this job, not to mention times of year where the market is super-saturated with requests, making it physically impossible for any one photographer to dominate the market just because they are more affordable. Not to mention there are a lot of people who won't look at a quote that they think is too low because "something must be wrong." Then you have the people who think that higher price unequivocally means better quality and they will only seek out higher dollar vendors as a result. Most people fall somewhere in the middle. I also am not too far off of prices that other photographers are offering in the area, so it's not like I'm the only one offering a full day for under $1000.


----------



## The_Traveler

PersistentNomad said:


> I also am not too far off of prices that other photographers are offering in the area, so it's not like I'm the only one offering a full day for under $1000.



It's my opinion that people (people with cameras) who do this, know exactly what their work is worth and the flood of them has negative effects on people who want to be good and be rewarded by it.

There are only two reasons to do work, for love or for money. I don't mind doing things if I love them and the extra time spent is returned in belief in my own self worth as an artist. If I do something for money, I want to get enough so I can spend time to make the work  to my standards without feeling like my time is going cheap. If I am forced to do work cheap, I feel degraded as an artist.

*There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.*

John Ruskin


----------



## PersistentNomad

The_Traveler said:


> There are only two reasons to do work, for love or for money.


The way you speak, it's as though both reasons are mutually exclusive... and they aren't. 

The fact that almost this whole conversation has been about price is really frustrating. It's as though everyone here wants to discourage or indoctrinate every new professional into an established pricing philosophy. And sorry not sorry, but I don't need or want to subscribe to some quasi-official pricing structure that makes you guys feel uncomfortable because _maybe_ it might cost another photographer a job or two. As I said, I noticed a hole in the supply, so I'm filling it. I think it's just super that you all are mad that my prices are "too low" and are suggesting that I could be charging more for my work (I assume because it's of a good enough quality), but trying to bully me (and other newbies who might be reading this) into higher prices against my philosophical values is not going to work, and quite frankly is not constructive. 

I once worked with a photographer in my old gallery who was also a student in my professional practices for artists course. She had been regularly selling her work from the exhibits and had won a few prizes over the previous year. Every piece she showed was matted and framed the same way, was all the same size, and she sold them for all the same price ($125). When we got to the session on pricing your work in the course, I used her as an example to illustrate how you know you can start charging more for your work. Her response was this: I want people to love my work, and I want people to be able to afford loving my work. I'm fortunate enough that I can afford to keep my prices low so that more people can love my art everyday.

If you don't understand it any more clearly than that, you won't understand it.


----------



## Piccell

PersistentNomad said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are only two reasons to do work, for love or for money.
> 
> 
> 
> The way you speak, it's as though both reasons are mutually exclusive... and they aren't.
> 
> The fact that almost this whole conversation has been about price is really frustrating. It's as though everyone here wants to discourage or indoctrinate every new professional into an established pricing philosophy. And sorry not sorry, but I don't need or want to subscribe to some quasi-official pricing structure that makes you guys feel uncomfortable because _maybe_ it might cost another photographer a job or two. As I said, I noticed a hole in the supply, so I'm filling it. I think it's just super that you all are mad that my prices are "too low" and are suggesting that I could be charging more for my work (I assume because it's of a good enough quality), but trying to bully me (and other newbies who might be reading this) into higher prices against my philosophical values is not going to work, and quite frankly is not constructive.
> 
> I once worked with a photographer in my old gallery who was also a student in my professional practices for artists course. She had been regularly selling her work from the exhibits and had won a few prizes over the previous year. Every piece she showed was matted and framed the same way, was all the same size, and she sold them for all the same price ($125). When we got to the session on pricing your work in the course, I used her as an example to illustrate how you know you can start charging more for your work. Her response was this: I want people to love my work, and I want people to be able to afford loving my work. I'm fortunate enough that I can afford to keep my prices low so that more people can love my art everyday.
> 
> If you don't understand it any more clearly than that, you won't understand it.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear!  It appears a lot of people do photography because they see dollar signs in it and want to hike up prices as far as possible. It has a detrimental effect of how people perceive photographers I'm afraid.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> Hear, hear!  It appears a lot of people do photography because they see dollar signs in it and want to hike up prices as far as possible. It has a detrimental effect of how people perceive photographers I'm afraid.



You have such a weird attitude. lol


----------



## Piccell

Vtec44 said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hear, hear!  It appears a lot of people do photography because they see dollar signs in it and want to hike up prices as far as possible. It has a detrimental effect of how people perceive photographers I'm afraid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have such a weird attitude. lol
Click to expand...

Weird? 
I have been called selfless. A humanitarian. Kind. Giving. Not by myself, as I consider myself to be just an ordinary person trying to do what they can to help out in the world. I donate time and my photography skills to many retirement homes and other charities locally without compensation and I donate money when I am able. I guess if that makes me weird then I am but I wish it were the norm and not something different or weird. I suppose I should consider that a compliment from someone driven by the almighty dollar more than art or people. I don't know if you really are such a person, but your comments seem to suggest that much. If not, I sincerely apologize.


----------



## table1349

You missed humble.


----------



## Piccell

I hope you are not taking a Warhol quote seriously. lol
Ok, you have derailed this thread enough, Again, to the OP, I applaud your efforts of providing a high quality service at prices the masses can afford. Well done.


----------



## Advanced Photo

The_Traveler said:


> PersistentNomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also am not too far off of prices that other photographers are offering in the area, so it's not like I'm the only one offering a full day for under $1000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's my opinion that people (people with cameras) who do this, know exactly what their work is worth and the flood of them has negative effects on people who want to be good and be rewarded by it.
> 
> There are only two reasons to do work, for love or for money. I don't mind doing things if I love them and the extra time spent is returned in belief in my own self worth as an artist. If I do something for money, I want to get enough so I can spend time to make the work  to my standards without feeling like my time is going cheap. If I am forced to do work cheap, I feel degraded as an artist.
> 
> *There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.*
> 
> John Ruskin
Click to expand...

I see the reverse side of that coin too though, The 'photographers' that think that high prices makes people see them as being somehow "better" has the effect of making photographers seem like a bunch of pretentious arrogant money grubbing low life (s) out for a fast buck at any cost. Kind of how lawyers are perceived.
Not all are of course, but there is a perception.


> There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.


It can also be said that there is nothing in the world that can't be improved upon and then offered for a little less allow those that are restricted by income or class access to something better than they could have had otherwise, if they have an advocate that has their interest at heart.
I am glad there are people willing to be their advocate, like the OP here.
By allowing those below you (financially) to have a better quality of life, we all get a better quality of life.


----------



## SquarePeg

OP - you asked for c&c of your website and you got it.  People expressing their opinions about your pricing is a part of that c&c.  I don't think anyone is trying to bully you into some type of pricing model, seems more like most of the experienced pros who make or have made their living from photography are giving you similar advice based on their personal experiences.  In the end, it's your choice of course and I'm looking forward to seeing some of your wedding work and hearing more about how your business start up is going.  

@Piccell   Is there a link to your website or Flickr?  I'm interested to see your work.


----------



## table1349

Piccell said:


> I hope you are not taking a Warhol quote seriously. lol
> Ok, you have derailed this thread enough, Again, to the OP, I applaud your efforts of providing a high quality service at prices the masses can afford. Well done.


Are you really that uninformed or just confused?  You idolized Walmart and Sam Walton when the Walmart track record is stuffed with every thing possible to make profit at the expense of it's employees, suppliers and the general publics expense.  Report: Walmart Workers Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion In Public Assistance

You tout Walmart's "Charitable" giving.  Are you aware that in the US that amounted to only 350 million out of that touted 1.3 billion.  Do you realized that "in kind" is fuzzy math wherein a business gives at cost and takes credit at full markup value.  

And then you think people wouldn't take Warhol's observation seriously.


----------



## AlanKlein

I'm not a pro photographer.   I have no idea whether your prices are too low.  The worse that will happen is that you'll spend a lot of time and not make money for the first couple of jobs -  a great learning lesson.    New business people often underestimate their worth.  Also, I'll mention that it's good not to count your chickens before they hatch and brag about being a pro.  First get the work, do it and most of all get paid for it, something that often is a problem in any business.

As an ex-businessman in specialty sub-contracting work (construction), totally unrelated in function to your work, I can tell you that your biggest problems will be the business side of it.  The photography will take care of itself.  So finding someone who can mentor you on the business end is very helpful.

By the way, I like your web page.  It works on my desktop.  I didn't try it on my cell phone.  And finally, the very best of luck to you.  It takes guts to start a business.  It won't be easy.  But I have a feeling you're going to make it.


----------



## Piccell

SquarePeg said:


> @Piccell   Is there a link to your website or Flickr?  I'm interested to see your work.


Think about what you are asking, I don't sell any of my work, why would I pay for a website to showcase what is not for sale?  I also do not subscribe to any social media for personal reasons.
If you have a worthy cause I believe in though I would be happy to help any way I can. Just ask.
Have a great day and God Bless.


----------



## table1349

This forum is social media.


----------



## SquarePeg

Piccell said:


> Think about what you are asking, I don't sell any of my work, why would I pay for a website to showcase what is not for sale?  I also do not subscribe to any social media for personal reasons.
> If you have a worthy cause I believe in though I would be happy to help any way I can. Just ask.
> Have a great day and God Bless.



What's that saying they use in the south?  

Well, bless your heart!


----------



## PersistentNomad

@AlanKlein Thanks! I actually have a lot of business savvy since I took two failing art centers and made them succeed again.  My mom says I get it from my dad, which must be true because I went to art school, not business school. Hopefully my biggest problem will (eventually) be having to say no to jobs because I want to limit my plate to how many I take to avoid burnout.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hear, hear!  It appears a lot of people do photography because they see dollar signs in it and want to hike up prices as far as possible. It has a detrimental effect of how people perceive photographers I'm afraid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have such a weird attitude. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Weird?
> I have been called selfless. A humanitarian. Kind. Giving. Not by myself, as I consider myself to be just an ordinary person trying to do what they can to help out in the world. I donate time and my photography skills to many retirement homes and other charities locally without compensation and I donate money when I am able. I guess if that makes me weird then I am but I wish it were the norm and not something different or weird. I suppose I should consider that a compliment from someone driven by the almighty dollar more than art or people. I don't know if you really are such a person, but your comments seem to suggest that much. If not, I sincerely apologize.
Click to expand...



That's great and all, but you seem to have an issue when photographers charges what they're worth, as if that's a bad thing.  That's very judgmental and weird/strange.

I donate my time to help local AIDS organization, wounded warriors, active military members, poor families.  My work is worth a lot.  It's also my full time profession and not a part time thing that do on the side.  So when I donate, people know I give up a lot without asking anything in return.  So no you're not the only one.  I don't need to tell people or act holier than thou about it. 

Also, I grew up in a war torn 3rd world country so yeah I know what it's like to live in poverty.  But, I also know what it takes to work hard to provide for my family.  So, your attitude seems even more strange to put it in a nice way.  In the sea of photographers charging next to nothing, a few of us worked our butt off to thrive and charge more than everyone.  It seems like you're try to shame those who have worked hard to make it.  IMHO, doing photography part time and giving your work away is the easy way.  However, if that's what people want to do... hey go for it.


----------



## Piccell

I guess your opinion of what a photographer is worth and mine differ, I think it would be great if all photographers charged what they are worth, and not what they think they should be worth. 



> I donate my time to help local AIDS organization, wounded warriors, active military members, poor families. My work is worth a lot. It's also my full time profession and not a part time thing that do on the side. So when I donate, people know I give up a lot without asking anything in return. So no you're not the only one. I don't need to tell people or act holier than thou about it.


Then why did you? 



> Doing photography part time and giving your work away is the easy way.. LOL



Easier said than done, my friend, if it was so easy everyone would give away all their work for free. It's not an easy thing to do, trust me. It's tempting to charge for a photo and make money for what you do, especially when there are bills to pay, but by staying the course and following what you believe and not giving in to temptation, God will always provide. At least that's been my experience.
My full time profession is working for a non-profit organization and that often includes taking photos, so I am also a professional photographer on those days.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> I guess your opinion of what a photographer is worth and mine differ, I think it would be great if all photographers charged what they are worth, and not what they think they should be worth.



You charge what the clients are willing to pay, not what other photographers think you should charge.



Piccell said:


> Then why did you?



I don't really need to but since you're acting holier than thou so I just want to throw it out there.



> Easier said than done, my friend, if it was so easy everyone would give away all their work for free. It's not an easy thing to do, trust me. It's tempting to charge for a photo and make money for what you do, especially when there are bills to pay, but by staying the course and following what you believe and not giving in to temptation, God will always provide. At least that's been my experience.
> My full time profession is working for a non-profit organization and that often includes taking photos, so I am also a professional photographer on those days.



I did that the first several years of my career when I had a full time job and photography was just a side thing.   It was easy because I never really have to give up much.  There's always my full time job to fall back on.  Now, I give up a lot when I donate but I still do.  So sure if that's what you want to do  part time and donate your work, go for it.  I'm not going to judge you but don't act all holier.  People out there are doing the same, while giving up a whole lot more.


----------



## Piccell

Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.


----------



## vintagesnaps

I think that seems like an inconsiderate thing to say to Vtec, to imply he's overcharging, when he works hard from what I've read in his posts on the board. He seems to take pride in his work and does it well. Why on earth should someone not charge for photography?? It's a service and/or product, and other businesses charge for their work and products. Do other service providers do work and not get paid? Hardly, we get paid for our work whatever it may be. That's fine to donate your time or your photography to retirement homes or other charitable causes, but that's different than doing photography as a job.

Back to the OP, I think your description of your work seems accurate, I've done sports and events and I can see where there's room for improvement with framing shots, consistency in quality, etc. So if it's not necessary to work or make money from your photography, why not spend time on learning and practicing and bringing up your skill level so you can provide good quality photos at a fair price? It seems like it would be a better option to consider other ways to make money if that's what you're going for, and work up to building up a photography business.

It seems like people often have an initial rush of people liking their photos or wanting their photos, but then it tapers off and reality kicks in when they start to charge for it. Then I think expectations can change and what people will take free or cheap they may not be willing to pay the going rate.


----------



## Vtec44

Piccell said:


> Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.



I'm fine not discussing it  If that's the direction of OP's business, go for it.  I wish her the very best.  However, don't come in and bash others because you don't know what it takes to do this for a living and support a family with it.  You don't know why I'm charging so much because you don't know what it took for me to get here, and what I had to give up.  If you truly believe your work is art and for people to enjoy, have, and share it then show it.  My work is visible for anyone to compare.


----------



## OGsPhotography

Iclicked a " choose to smooth" ad by accident scrolling through this " weird" argument. The ad was probably more interesting.

The price is what the next customer is willing to pay.

Fix your site I want to see it already and Im way to lazy in the morning to go fire up the computer.

What are you charging can you post the structure were arguing about here?


----------



## table1349

Piccell said:


> Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.


I agree why don't you let the OP have their thread back.


----------



## pixmedic

Piccell said:


> Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.


Photography is a luxury item. Plain and simple. 
People pay more for luxury items based on many factors. 
Image quality is only one of them.
Customer service and after sales service play a big role in luxury sales as well.
Vtec44 charges what he does, and gets it, because he excels in all of those things.
Your assumptions about his motives are in just as poor taste as those that probably think you charge less because your work is worth less.


----------



## tirediron

Piccell said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Piccell   Is there a link to your website or Flickr?  I'm interested to see your work.
> 
> 
> 
> Think about what you are asking, I don't sell any of my work, why would I pay for a website to showcase what is not for sale?  I also do not subscribe to any social media for personal reasons.
> If you have a worthy cause I believe in though I would be happy to help any way I can. Just ask.
> Have a great day and God Bless.
Click to expand...

No problem at all.... you account here provides you with free image hosting.  Simply upload a few of your favorite works to your personal gallery here on TPF and post them!


----------



## Overread

tirediron said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Piccell   Is there a link to your website or Flickr?  I'm interested to see your work.
> 
> 
> 
> Think about what you are asking, I don't sell any of my work, why would I pay for a website to showcase what is not for sale?  I also do not subscribe to any social media for personal reasons.
> If you have a worthy cause I believe in though I would be happy to help any way I can. Just ask.
> Have a great day and God Bless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No problem at all.... you account here provides you with free image hosting.  Simply upload a few of your favorite works to your personal gallery here on TPF and post them!
Click to expand...


To add to this flickr, deviantart and photobucket also offer free image hosting without any costs; so you've a range of choices including the forum upon which you can freely host your photos.


----------



## Piccell

tirediron said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Piccell   Is there a link to your website or Flickr?  I'm interested to see your work.
> 
> 
> 
> Think about what you are asking, I don't sell any of my work, why would I pay for a website to showcase what is not for sale?  I also do not subscribe to any social media for personal reasons.
> If you have a worthy cause I believe in though I would be happy to help any way I can. Just ask.
> Have a great day and God Bless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No problem at all.... you account here provides you with free image hosting.  Simply upload a few of your favorite works to your personal gallery here on TPF and post them!
Click to expand...

I may just do that some day. Or not. I don't like putting photos on sites like Flickr though because I don't want my work associated with those places.
If I am ever bored enough I might stick a photo up here if I read and agree with the site policies concerning copyright. A lot of sites want the rights to post and repost without further permission each time and that I won't do.


----------



## Overread

Deviantart and Flickr both leave you holding all the copyright - flickr has a few deals such as Ghetty approaching users, but that is your choice if you accept or not (flickr tried to go wholesale same as photobucket has done in the past and it backfired on them hard so its never been tried again). Flikr also has some sale options (its more artist orientated and thus well setup for commission work or paid work - but again your choice)
The forums as well here only request so much rights as are needed to host and post the photos online (in fact I suspect that segment of the rules is probably whatever standard spiel is set in the forum software as default - mostly because we've no interest in your photos at all from a commercial angle).


----------



## PersistentNomad

Whoa, there's a lot to unpack here. First off, I want to make clear that I don't hold it against anyone for charging "high" (or for that matter, low) because everyone has their reasons and motivations, just like me, for why they charge those figures.

@vintagesnaps  that's kind of what I'm trying to do by actually starting it. You can't really build a wedding photography portfolio without shooting weddings, so you have to take the plunge. I have done several second shooter gigs, but some of the primary photogs don't allow me to use the images I took for portfolio purposes. But in any case, I do know what goes in to photographing a wedding, so I'm not going in blind nor do I have any illusions about wedding being easy.

@Piccell  you are up on your high horse. Awesome that you give so much, but as others have mentioned that's no reason to be snide to the people who have spent many years and lots of dollars building successful businesses.

@OGsPhotography the site should be functioning. A lot of people, not just on TPF, have been viewing it without issue. http://www.emmathurgood.com. but, to answer anyway, I'm asking $600 for a 6 hour day and $900 for 10 hours. I imagine those two are the biggest bones of contention.


----------



## Piccell

I was sharing what I have heard a lot over the years about high priced photographers (overpriced) that they are perceived by the public at large as being greedy people that are priced above their worth. I was and am sincere in this and I was not being snide in any way. I do what I can to change that perception and I applaud other photographers that do the same. I think some people got the wrong idea about that.


----------



## pixmedic

Piccell said:


> I was sharing what I have heard a lot over the years about high priced photographers (overpriced) that they are perceived by the public at large as being greedy people that are priced above their worth. I was and am sincere in this and I was not being snide in any way. I do what I can to change that perception and I applaud other photographers that do the same. I think some people got the wrong idea about that.


Really? 
Your comment to vtec44 about "knowing why he charged so much" was just "sharing what you have heard"?


----------



## Piccell

He stated why he charged so much, please read that and then you will also know what I do.


----------



## table1349

Piccell said:


> I was sharing what I have heard a lot over the years about high priced photographers (overpriced) that they are perceived by the public at large as being greedy people that are priced above their worth. I was and am sincere in this and I was not being snide in any way. I do what I can to change that perception and I applaud other photographers that do the same. I think some people got the wrong idea about that.


----------



## Overread

Piccell said:


> I guess your opinion of what a photographer is worth and mine differ



I think this is where we draw the line now as otherwise this is just going to be an endless debate between yourself and others on the perceived value of photography. IF you want to debate that go make another thread on the topic but for now I'd say return to the original content of this thread for the OP least we hijack this further into a side discussion


----------



## Piccell

Overread said:


> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess your opinion of what a photographer is worth and mine differ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is where we draw the line now as otherwise this is just going to be an endless debate between yourself and others on the perceived value of photography. IF you want to debate that go make another thread on the topic but for now I'd say return to the original content of this thread for the OP least we hijack this further into a side discussion
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I tried 2 pages ago but it fell on deaf ears. 


Piccell said:


> Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.



To the OP: I think what you are trying to do is a great thing and I hope you find less resistance in the real world than you have here from this forum.
Fight the good fight.


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## The_Traveler

Piccell said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess your opinion of what a photographer is worth and mine differ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is where we draw the line now as otherwise this is just going to be an endless debate between yourself and others on the perceived value of photography. IF you want to debate that go make another thread on the topic but for now I'd say return to the original content of this thread for the OP least we hijack this further into a side discussion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you for that. I tried 2 pages ago but it fell on deaf ears.
> 
> 
> Piccell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever, I think you have beat this to death for long enough, we know you are charging more than you could and I think we know why. Let the OP have her thread back, please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To the OP: I think what you are trying to do is a great thing and I hope you find less resistance in the real world than you have here from this forum.
> Fight the good fight.
Click to expand...


It seems that you might be the latest in a particular type of newcomer. 
They enter, make wise, knowing comments, refer to themselves in a gratuitously immodest fashion, don't show actual images anywhere because their work is either too fine to be among the lower classes or they 'fear' it being stolen. Their comments are usually counter to the prevailing opinion and they like to slip in semi-obscure references to show their expertise.

What they don't show is either their images, their personal data or any intent to do the real effort of good c/c.

I look forward to what may be your brief stay.

And, btw,



Piccell said:


> A smaller opening gives a sharper image. Try looking through your fingertips making a tiny opening to look through.



this comment is only sort of true and is, to a new photographer, very misleading.


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## SquarePeg

@The_Traveler  just use the ignore function it's easier than feeding the trolls.


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## Piccell

SquarePeg said:


> @The_Traveler  just use the ignore function it's easier than feeding the trolls.


Yes, please. Or just comment on the topic of the post and not on the posters in the forum. Thanks.


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## tirediron

Okay folks, I think we're about done here.  If anyone has anything meaningful to add to the ORIGINAL POST, by all means, otherwise, let's let this particular dead horse die in peace.  Please!


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## PersistentNomad

As the OP, I'm glad that this thread was able to foster a lot of good discussion, peppered though it was with dribble.


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## Vtec44

I'm actually very reasonable when you compare my price to Jose Villa, Jasmine Star, Scott Robert Lim, Lin and Jirsa, Caroline Tran, and all those who are charging $10,000 per wedding hahaha   j/k

@PersistentNomad  , sorry for hijacking your thread.  Congrats on your new journey.  I'd love to see you continue to do what you truly believe in.  Steve Jobs once said, "...the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do."


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## vintagesnaps

It seems like if you're at the portfolio building stage that it's too soon to be going into business. Why not continue to second shoot? Try http://asmp.org, there are listings for photographers and assistants. And there are lots of good resources and information there; at least, I've learned a lot. Or PPA may be a better option for resources, or other pro photographers sites geared to weddings.

Even if only one photographer will allow you to use photos you take in your portfolio, then maybe that's one that you can shadow, or observe (with clients' permission of course). Or take a photography class. Or try a camera club, maybe there's one with studio nights or other events that would provide an opportunity for learning and networking (so maybe you'd find photographers to work with as you build a portfolio and bring up your skill level).

I feel like what I see is a need to work on being more aware of your vantage points, getting more practice framing shots effectively to keep clutter in the background out of your pictures, etc. For example the guys tying the tie, look at the mirror, what do you see? Is that what you want in the middle of your composition? Mirrors can be great to use if you keep what's being reflected in mind. In that one and the one in the hallway, there's some odd perspective with doorways etc. In the one of the hug, notice how much space there is above their heads but the arms are just barely in the frame. I found it took lots and lots and lots of practice to get good at framing shots as things are happening.

I would just think it's more likely to be successful by becoming good at what you do instead of providing lower quality work at a low price - that seems to me to be a disservice to clients. By success I don't mean necessarily making a fortune, other local photographers I know don't do that fulltime, they may do local sports, and weddings, and work other jobs. I'm talking as much about doing the best work you can and providing high quality work you can take pride in.


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## PersistentNomad

@vintagesnaps I know that I need work on my framing, and a big part of that is the jitters. I am just worried about missing it that I don't always take the time to capture it the way I should. And sometimes it is indeed the only way it gets captured (like in the hugging photo). Anyway, that is part of why I am also working in a retail studio, to get a lot more experience posing and capturing the frame well on the fly. Yay for rambunctious toddlers. 

As for maybe I should wait before charging, I'm not a person who puts off something I want to do. It's part of why I failed my sketchbook class (because apparently a sketchbook can only be the rough drafts of final artworks you want to do, not an artwork in its own right). But totally separate from that, everyone has a place where they start and everyone is always getting better (unless they are stagnating) and I don't see a problem with taking the steps to get going when one feels they are ready to take on the challenge.


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## PersistentNomad

P.S. to everyone in this conversation: Did I mention I'm headstrong and willfully disobedient?


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## tirediron

PersistentNomad said:


> P.S. to everyone in this conversation: Did I mention I'm headstrong and willfully disobedient?


Shocker!


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## Overread

When it comes to framing, abuse cropping. 
Learn to shoot wide instead of closing in for the action of the event; that will give you room then to compose with cropping in editing. As time goes on you can then slowly and steadily shoot closer because you'll have more of a history of composition practice to better know what you want to frame and when.


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## Piccell

Overread said:


> When it comes to framing, abuse cropping.
> Learn to shoot wide instead of closing in for the action of the event; that will give you room then to compose with cropping in editing. As time goes on you can then slowly and steadily shoot closer because you'll have more of a history of composition practice to better know what you want to frame and when.


This is a valid technique if you only want small prints. If you are going to make a larger print, this can come back to bite you with a pixelated image.


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## Piccell

PersistentNomad said:


> @vintagesnaps I know that I need work on my framing, and a big part of that is the jitters. I am just worried about missing it that I don't always take the time to capture it the way I should. And sometimes it is indeed the only way it gets captured (like in the hugging photo). Anyway, that is part of why I am also working in a retail studio, to get a lot more experience posing and capturing the frame well on the fly. Yay for rambunctious toddlers.
> 
> As for maybe I should wait before charging, I'm not a person who puts off something I want to do. It's part of why I failed my sketchbook class (because apparently a sketchbook can only be the rough drafts of final artworks you want to do, not an artwork in its own right). But totally separate from that, everyone has a place where they start and everyone is always getting better (unless they are stagnating) and I don't see a problem with taking the steps to get going when one feels they are ready to take on the challenge.


I used to have that issue at one point. Not wanting to miss a shot.
As was mentioned if you are going to print small, you can crop to your desired frame up to a point. What I started doing is to grab the shot, then refine the composition (quickly) and shoot another and maybe zoom out again and shoot a wider version. That way you get the shot and some alternates to choose from later.


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## table1349

Nomad, don't worry too much about print size issues with shooting a bit wide.  Your camera outputs 4,288 x 2,848 raw files.  That will produce an excellent 14.3″ x 9.5″ inch print at 300 dpi without any resizing.  Slight cropping will not cause you printing issues.  

It is quite common for photographers to print at 240 dpi which yields a good quality print up to 17.9″ x 11.9″.  Overread is right, if you shoot a slight bit wide you can easily crop to what you want instead of missing that shot that only last an instant.


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## Vtec44

Nikon d800 and d750. I can crop for days and still print 20x30 just fine

Wait I thought we wanted to return the topic back to OP?  Now we just started the great print quality debate lol


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## OGsPhotography

On topic? What is the topic? Donyou get to, yes of course is the answer, close the thread. 

I think 900$ for a day of shooting is not a budget price. Almost exuberant if you have the experience I think you do, although Im not sure because your page still crashes my phone. Dang ios 10 or whatever they call it crashes a lot more often than ever.

You must be trying to get rich! Haha.


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## PersistentNomad

@Vtec44 yes, the 750 is what I want to upgrade to. And we can still talk about print quality; that's a professional concern, right?


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## vintagesnaps

Framing shots in a situation where you get the jitters - that's exactly why you need to practice and learn _before_ you go into doing photography for other people. So when you're in a pressure situation and trying to capture moments as they happen that you know what to do without having to think too much about it, your skills just kick in.

For example again with the shot of the hug, that's true it's not always possible to get the shot exactly the way you want. Which is why it would help to get more practice framing shots so you can do it well and efficiently as things are happening. Why not crop that one down some so the couple isn't in the bottom of the frame? and get better balance in the composition.

Although I don't think necessarily that framing more wide all the time is the best way to go either, seems like that's going to make extra work having to crop everything. That's I think where you need to learn what works best when. I tend to shoot tighter doing events and more loosely when I'm shooting film using a rangefinder to give myself a little leeway using the framelines in the viewfinder. Seems best to learn how to get what I learned to be 'clean' compositions (uncluttered, well balanced, etc.).

I just think too often people don't get prepared enough, aren't expecting the type problems they end up having, and end up out of it before they barely got started. It seems like a disservice to clients to go into this without a priority being that you've developed the necessary skills and feel you can provide good professional quality work.


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