# Proper way to photograph a white object



## gossamer

Hi, the picture below was shot using my D500 with my 24-70mm using two XPLOR 600s at about 1/32nd power, each with a 38" octobox positioned from above, but the item appears to get lost in the background. The background is inside a light tent with a muslin background. The background is a little wrinkled, so I used the light to overtake (if that's the right word) the wrinkles. I've set the white balance using my lastolite pop-up gray card.

Looking at the image here, I see the background still needs some work, but some guidance on the best approach would be appreciated. 

I've also included a mug that I think is a little better, but it's also somewhat lost in the background.

What's the proper way to do this?

Is it better to just use a different colored background? 

This was really difficult


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## Designer

The better way is to *light the object*, rather than the background.  When you positioned the light box ABOVE the object, you lighted the TOP of the object fairly well, but NOT the FRONT. 

1. Position the light to light the object.

2. Position the object at some distance from the background.

3. Let the background light fall off. 

Easy-Peasy.


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## Derrel

As Designer mentioned above, the subjects in both of the photos shown need more frontal lighting...the background is lighted more so than the objects, to a brighter level, but there's not any interesting light on the frontal planes of either the bottle,or the cup.

If you were to move one light (the Main  light AKA the 'key" light) around to the front or front/side of the objects, they would be brighter, and the backdrop would render as darker, due to light fall-off. If you added a second light, AKA a "background light", you could make the background bright as well, or medium bright, or whatever.

There are at least one dozen ways these objects could be photographed, to start, and many,many possible refinements of those dozen basic ways would also exist.

There is no, one, single "proper way to photograph a white object"...there are MANY possible ways, including white on white, white on black, white on gray, white on red,and so on and so on.


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## gossamer

Derrel said:


> As Designer mentioned above, the subjects in both of the photos shown need more frontal lighting...the background is lighted more so than the objects, to a brighter level, but there's not any interesting light on the frontal planes of either the bottle,or the cup.
> 
> If you were to move one light (the Main  light AKA the 'key" light) around to the front or front/side of the objects, they would be brighter, and the backdrop would render as darker, due to light fall-off. If you added a second light, AKA a "background light", you could make the background bright as well, or medium bright, or whatever.
> 
> There are at least one dozen ways these objects could be photographed, to start, and many,many possible refinements of those dozen basic ways would also exist.
> 
> There is no, one, single "proper way to photograph a white object"...there are MANY possible ways, including white on white, white on black, white on gray, white on red,and so on and so on.


Thanks, guys. Derrel, I believe you had recommended to me a ring light (Bolt VM-160 LED) about three weeks ago. I took it out of the box for this, and realized it doesn't fit my 82mm lens  It's on its way back to B&H.

Would a ring light be more appropriate for something like this? This one's quite a bit more expensive than the Bolt VM-160, but looks pretty good:
https://www.amazon.com/R-300S-Bi-Color-Photo-Video-Carrying/dp/B06XJ3219W/

I'm still looking, but do you believe this would be a good option? Do you have other recommendations? This sure looks like an easier solution than bringing out the XPLOR 600s every time.


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## Derrel

I think you're mistaken on who recommended a macro ring light to you; I do not recommend them to anyone. I looked at the Bolt a few minutes ago, and had never seen it before, but have seen similar units over the years. The second link, to a $279 multi-LED ringlight, was a surprise, and I think that unit is vastly over-priced and looks terrible for still photo use, but might be okay for video shooters. Still...I am not a fan of ringlights, and the multi-LED one looks like it would be horrible on reflective objects; too many point light sources.

I dunno...I am not a fan of ringlights for small products, or for macro use. Flat, almost totally shadowless lighting. However...a similar effect can be achieved by taping or rubber-banding a speedlight right onto the side of one's lens barrel. Seriously. Not kidding. Look it up on Strobist.com.

I think softboxes and diffusion panels (scrims) are a vastly better choice for small products. You already own two higher-grade lights, so I'd look into a gridded softbox for one light option, at the minimum. A light tent is a rather boring light as well, and has limitations. I think you should avoid any and all ringlights. If you want to have good lighting, bringing out the real lights is the easiest way to achieve that.


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## gossamer

Derrel, thank you, I completely agree.

I was also hoping the light tent would help to block some of the outside light, but it really doesn't. I'll try again with my existing higher-grade lights and follow up soon.


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## Designer

gossamer said:


> Derrel, thank you, I completely agree.
> 
> I was also hoping the light tent would help to block some of the outside light, but it really doesn't. I'll try again with my existing higher-grade lights and follow up soon.


I think that is a very odd reason to use a light tent.  Usually, we use a light tent to ADD light, and preferably all around the subject, but not to block light.

To minimize the effects of stray light coming from outside sources, you can block them at their source, or simply increase your shutter speed to the point that they are no longer contributing much light.

Since you are using flash, you should not be overly concerned with other light sources.


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## gossamer

Designer said:


> gossamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Derrel, thank you, I completely agree.
> 
> I was also hoping the light tent would help to block some of the outside light, but it really doesn't. I'll try again with my existing higher-grade lights and follow up soon.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is a very odd reason to use a light tent.  Usually, we use a light tent to ADD light, and preferably all around the subject, but not to block light.
> 
> To minimize the effects of stray light coming from outside sources, you can block them at their source, or simply increase your shutter speed to the point that they are no longer contributing much light.
> 
> Since you are using flash, you should not be overly concerned with other light sources.
Click to expand...

I was using the light tent to not just diffuse the natural light in the room, but also the light from my strobes. I'm not sure I've yet figured out how to expose properly except for trial-and-error in situations like this.

I also thought the light tent was helpful to provide a white background.


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## gossamer

Is this better? This is with both strobes almost directly in front of the bottle, but it looks like it's resulted in it creating a reflection, even with the octoboxes set up on both strobes.

It also appears gray, with the bottle itself the correct color of white. This is with setting the white balance using the white side of a gray card. The background itself is actually white. It also appears a little off-center.

This is at about 65mm f/4 ISO 100 and 1/500th with the strobes set to 1/16th.


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## JBPhotog

gossamer said:


> Hi, the picture below was shot using my D500 with my 24-70mm using two XPLOR 600s at about 1/32nd power, each with a 38" octobox positioned from above, but the item appears to get lost in the background. The background is inside a light tent with a muslin background. The background is a little wrinkled, so I used the light to overtake (if that's the right word) the wrinkles. I've set the white balance using my lastolite pop-up gray card.
> Looking at the image here, I see the background still needs some work, but some guidance on the best approach would be appreciated.
> 
> I've also included a mug that I think is a little better, but it's also somewhat lost in the background.
> 
> What's the proper way to do this?
> 
> Is it better to just use a different colored background?
> 
> This was really difficult



Welcome to the OCD world of product photography, LOL. I've been doing this for a few decades and it takes a certain personality to do it well, one must be very particular about very tiny details and have a special knack for seeing light and shade.

If you really want to learn how to shoot product, start by doing some reading, there are a number of books on this subject. Another way to learn is to look at images of product photography and study how they were lit.

However, for the sake of your dilemma I can offer some suggestions. You need to define what look you are after before you start lighting the subject, did you want white on white or would a darker background work? Ask yourself what is important and what is less important about the product vs the background, that discovery will guide you to the best approach.

Your products are reflective, think about what they are reflecting back into the lens and is that what you want? If the surface is fabric and you want it to be perfectly flat, choose a different surface like a small piece of white laminate. If you are skilled in PhotoShop shoot for the product then plop any background in you want.

Before any suggestions can help you, you need to say what you want the product to look like, I doubt shiny hot spots on the front label are your goal.


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## gossamer

> Welcome to the OCD world of product photography, LOL. I've been doing this for a few decades and it takes a certain personality to do it well, one must be very particular about very tiny details and have a special knack for seeing light and shade.
> 
> If you really want to learn how to shoot product, start by doing some reading, there are a number of books on this subject. Another way to learn is to look at images of product photography and study how they were lit.


I need to learn more about how to use light in general.



> However, for the sake of your dilemma I can offer some suggestions. You need to define what look you are after before you start lighting the subject, did you want white on white or would a darker background work? Ask yourself what is important and what is less important about the product vs the background, that discovery will guide you to the best approach.


I could probably do this more easily by just using a colored background, but I want it to be consistent with my other pictures for this project and do it with a white background, as I've attempted to do here.

I want it to look like what I've done currently, only better  I'd like it to be fully white, with just slight shadows from the subject itself providing an outline.



> Your products are reflective, think about what they are reflecting back into the lens and is that what you want? If the surface is fabric and you want it to be perfectly flat, choose a different surface like a small piece of white laminate. If you are skilled in PhotoShop shoot for the product then plop any background in you want.


I do also have some black shirts that need to be shot. I was thinking of laying them out on a white laminate (foam board from Michael's) but haven't yet figured out how to suspend the camera directly above.



> Before any suggestions can help you, you need to say what you want the product to look like, I doubt shiny hot spots on the front label are your goal.


Yes, certainly not, and I don't appear to be able to overpower those reflections with the flash.


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## gossamer

I'm curious if you think this is better? It looks like the outline of the bottle is somewhat blurry - perhaps f/3.5 wasn't enough DoF or the 1/200th wasn't enough to avoid camera shake? It's also a tiny bit off-center. I also used the bucket tool to make the white more consistent.

The problem I was having (or still) is the bottle getting lost in the background because it's also white. I was hoping the right shadows would solve the problem.

I'm also seeing the white balance is off a bit (it looks more blue than it should) but the bottle itself is very close to actual white (or at least the same white as the foam core behind it) that it makes it very difficult.

Of course I could use a blue or red background, but I want to keep the white consistent with other products from this series.


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## gossamer

This is what looks like the original product shot from the manufacturer

https://cdna.4imprint.com/prod/rend/700/451172/388_103.jpg


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## JBPhotog

Forgive the rather crude lighting diagram but I hope it gives you an idea.




Octaboxes are not ideal for product work since they don't have an edge where you can determine falloff along the entire front or back of the product. Essentially your main light is an overhead modifier with enough spill to illuminate the background if your desire is white and a bit of overlap on the front in order to cast some light in front of the product. This overlap is critical, since any amount can spill on the shoulder of the bottle and create a hot spot as in your latest(shot #3) example, fore and aft movement of the product can get you in the ideal position where no hot spot is seen.

A white reflector bouncing light from the main light back into the product front will lighten up the text and give you more logo readability.

Not shown in this diagram are white bounce cards along both sides of the product. Again position is critical as you want to create shoulder definition to the bottle rather than vertical stripes like in your previous front lit example(shot #2). You will notice in shot #3 there is a gap in the shaded shoulder highlight and the actual outer edge of the shoulder, this should be avoided, the shaded shoulder should be a thin line right on the edge of the bottle. Black card stock cut into narrow strips and placed on the background leading away from the base of the bottle will do this.

The polished stainless top is going to be a problem for you, rather than spill some trade secrets and get it right in camera LOL, you would be best to do it in post by shooting a few exposures and combining them in PS.

It looks like you have some external illumination hitting the bottle front and the cap, best to do this in a completely dark environment or at least add some black V flats to kill any spill.

Anyway that is a good start, you will be training your eye to look from the lens position and see what your lighting is doing. I developed this over many years starting back in the large format film days. You will either like this sort of thing or you would rather make sand out of rocks, you'll know soon enough.


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## JBPhotog

gossamer said:


> This is what looks like the original product shot from the manufacturer
> 
> https://cdna.4imprint.com/prod/rend/700/451172/388_103.jpg



Even theirs is not very good and it looks like it was close cut. A good measuring stick for you to improve your skills.


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## gossamer

Thanks so much. Those are great comments. I really want to do this the right way. I think learning this will help with other projects as well.

From the diagram, it looks like you're shooting down on the subject, is that correct? How can I place the reflector in front and still be able to shoot from straight on?

The problem with this shot is that it shows the wrinkles from the muslin background. Do you have recommendations for something small yet straight enough to use for stuff like this that I can continue to use without getting wrinkled? Does this mean I don't have the lighting right to overpower whatever is lighting the background?


 



> The polished stainless top is going to be a problem for you, rather than spill some trade secrets and get it right in camera LOL, you would be best to do it in post by shooting a few exposures and combining them in PS.


Do you mean your trade secrets for eliminating the reflection from shiny objects?


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## adamhiram

I'm certainly no expert, but I can offer a few tips (or more accurately reiterate tips already posted here)...

As @Designer said in the first reply, light the object first.  Decide on a starting point to expose the object correctly, independent of the background.  For an object such as this bottle, I would think that would mean lighting it from the front and maybe from one or both sides for more even lighting top-to-bottom.  You best bet is a large soft box, diffusion panel, or reflector.  This is your starting point.
Next light the background.  For a solid white  background you should be fine with what you have, or you can pickup a large roll of white seamless paper for under $30 that will last you forever.  Personally I just use a few large sheets of white posterboard.  Now blast it with enough light, separately from the subject, to drive it to pure white.  Just be careful not to overdo it or you'll start losing the edges of the object.
For non-glossy objects with  few or no specular reflections, such as a plush toy, you're done.  For everything else, now comes the challenge of creating highlights, shadows, and reflections that compliment the object, as @JBPhotog described.  This is often done with various rectangular softboxes with black masks and flags, and can make use of compositing from multiple exposures.  It's up to you how far down that rabbit hole you want to go - for a full page print ad you'll want to take the time to get everything perfect; for a bunch of product thumbnails on a website, those details probably don't matter as much.
For a quick primer on product photography, particularly glass and other transparent/translucent/glossy objects, I would recommend doing a quick search on fstoppers.com for bottle, glass, product photography - they seem to do a few features on this each year.


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## JBPhotog

gossamer said:


> From the diagram, it looks like you're shooting down on the subject, is that correct? How can I place the reflector in front and still be able to shoot from straight on?
> 
> The problem with this shot is that it shows the wrinkles from the muslin background. Do you have recommendations for something small yet straight enough to use for stuff like this that I can continue to use without getting wrinkled? Does this mean I don't have the lighting right to overpower whatever is lighting the background?



You can still place bounce cards to the front if you are shooting straight on. It gets a bit more complicated of course since the cards are in the way but one can either stack cards leaving a gap where the lens shoots through or use a white card and actually cut a hole, I prefer the stack if the objects are not chrome or shiny gold or silver, it gives one a bit more flexibility to move them. You could also mitigate this by asking if you really need straight on or would a slight vertical elevation work, this is where a view camera excels. Using a longer lens will let you keep the gap or hole in the front bounce cards as small as possible, it also helps with convergence of the product lines.

I would highly recommend using Formica or some white laminate as your sweep. Most countertop manufacturing shops will sell you a half sheet, certainly a full sheet if you have the room. You will need a shooting surface as wide as your Formica so it can lay flat and an edge to clamp it down on the front, then you can sweep up the back to create a seamless background. The beauty of Formica is it can be cleaned if you are using liquids or products that may leave a mark. Surface gloss is your pick depending on the look you want, I prefer a flat eggshell as it has the least amount of texture and reflection.





I took the liberty to highlight a couple of your issues. Ambient reflections are an absolute no no in product photography, note the highlight in the left shoulder area. They replicate themselves all over your bottle, cap to base. All lights even shiny stands need to be hidden by blackout material in order they not be seen in your product. Even a coloured shirt will bounce back into your product, I'd suggest shooting a chromed kettle if you really want to see how much of your shooting space shows up in the shot, LOL.

The second highlight on the label is showing you the gaps in your bounce cards, this "zebra" effect is also a non-starter, your client would say "our logo is not striped" and reject your work. Ultimately, there will be a small black area reflected on the product where the lens is shooting through but adding light totally around the front will eliminate most of the stripe areas. Like I said in my original post, shiny product work is "the" most demanding of skill and talent for the product shooter, welcome to my insane world, ha ha!

I would digress from some previous posters. Do not add more lights especially anywhere within 180 degrees of the front of the bottle, unless of course you want to see large hot stripes on the product which I believe you saw in shot #2?



gossamer said:


> Do you mean your trade secrets for eliminating the reflection from shiny objects?



No, I mean controlling the dynamic range in camera by special lighting techniques. With the advent of PhotoShop most of this can be done in post, the operative word is "most" not "all". It requires way too much detail and technique to attempt to explain here.


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## DanOstergren

gossamer said:


> This is what looks like the original product shot from the manufacturer
> 
> https://cdna.4imprint.com/prod/rend/700/451172/388_103.jpg


This looks like it was cut and pasted into an all white background image.


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## JBPhotog

DanOstergren said:


> gossamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what looks like the original product shot from the manufacturer
> 
> https://cdna.4imprint.com/prod/rend/700/451172/388_103.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like it was cut and pasted into an all white background image.
Click to expand...


That's what "close cutting" is, which is the correct technical term.


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## DanOstergren

JBPhotog said:


> DanOstergren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gossamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what looks like the original product shot from the manufacturer
> 
> https://cdna.4imprint.com/prod/rend/700/451172/388_103.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like it was cut and pasted into an all white background image.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's what "close cutting" is, which is the correct technical term.
Click to expand...

I'm simply saying that if the OP wants to duplicate the look of the example photo, he must use that technique then.


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## gossamer

This is the final version of that attempt. I still feel like the bottle is a little lost in the background, but I managed to get rid of most of the reflections and learned a ton in the process.

You can still see some of the texture of the background. I couldn't find a completely white piece of paper that was large enough and flexible enough for this in time. Where do product photographers get their supplies?

I could get rid of all the reflections by shooting in complete darkness, but the camera won't focus, lol.


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## JBPhotog

See my previous posts on the following;
- black cards to add an edge to the white bottle will give you the separation you want.
- a solid surface for the background, i.e. Formica or seamless background paper.
- a more refined approach to reflector card placement will fill in most of the dark stripe on the face of the bottle, fixing the rest in post is the the next step.

The use of speedlights for product photography is not the norm, you need studio strobes with modelling lights to aid in focusing, light placement and modifier choice.

Good for you to tackle this subject, the learning never ends.


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## gossamer

Thanks so much for your summary and follow-up. I had used two Flashpoint XPLOR 600s with 38" octoboxes for this.

The black cards are off to the left and right of the bottle, correct?

I believe there's a store that sells Formica nearby, but is this the type of paper you think would be best for this?
https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Seamless-Background-Paper-yards/dp/B000ONTJ8W/

Do you have any suggestions for black cards? I could probably build something with construction paper and cardboard, but I'd rather just buy something that's reasonably priced and be done with it.


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## JBPhotog

gossamer said:


> Thanks so much for your summary and follow-up. I had used two Flashpoint XPLOR 600s with 38" octoboxes for this.
> 
> The black cards are off to the left and right of the bottle, correct?



Partially correct. They need to be behind the back plane of the bottle and close enough to show a thin black line along the edge of the bottle on each side(see below for detail). This is where modelling lights are critical, you put your eye in the lens centre looking at the product and see how the position of the cards reflect back into the product. Without modelling lights, getting it right is virtually impossible, unless of course time has no value.



gossamer said:


> I believe there's a store that sells Formica nearby, but is this the type of paper you think would be best for this?
> https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Seamless-Background-Paper-yards/dp/B000ONTJ8W/



Yes seamless paper works. However, with multiple shots it can get marked and with liquids it is not an option. Formica is the 'go to' as it is far more durable, liquid proof and can be cleaned.



gossamer said:


> Do you have any suggestions for black cards? I could probably build something with construction paper and cardboard, but I'd rather just buy something that's reasonably priced and be done with it.



Black construction paper laid on the surface works go give you an outline, lots of experimenting with angles and distance are required for each product. If the goal is to close cut in post processing to drop onto any background(including pure white) or isolate it, then giving the product an 'edge' makes your time in PS vastly easier, more accurate and more efficient.


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