# What does "auto" and "manual" mean to you?



## molested_cow (Aug 9, 2012)

I've always used a SLR/DSLR with no scene mode, so manual vs auto has always meant full manual vs priority modes.
Then I realized that many cameras have scene modes, and those users may think manual vs auto as scene vs everything else.
Obviously there's the green "auto" and P modes.

So what does auto vs manual mean to you? I know this is pointless, I am just quite damn bored.


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## MLeeK (Aug 9, 2012)

Auto is any mode that is supposed to be idiot proof. The square box, P, scene modes. 
Shutter and Aperture priority are assisted modes that require the shooter to have more than just a clue.
Manual is manual.


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## 480sparky (Aug 9, 2012)

Manual = I have all the time in the world to make all the choices..... ISO, shutter speed, aperture, white balance, flash (or not), focus point.....

Auto = I don't have the time to mess with that stuff.... it's happening too fast.

That said, I rarely shoot in totally Auto mode.  I usually shoot in Progam, Aperture or Shutter priority modes.  I may let the camera choose the focus point and turn off the pop-up flash.  But P, S or A modes gives my a lot of control over aperture and shutter speed.


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## Ysarex (Aug 9, 2012)

Auto means you use an exposure meter and manual means you do it yourself.

Since you're bored I'll tell you a story. Back in the 1970s I used to hang out at St. Louis Photo where I eventually met Bob Arteaga. Mr. Arteaga was hired to photograph the construction of the Gateway Arch: St. Louis Arch Prints and St. Louis Arch Photographs One day I saw Mr. Arteaga on the street and he was taking a photo for St. Louis University. He was using an old Graflex 4x5 on a tripod and was working off the ground glass. I said, "Hi Mr. Arteaga I met you at the camera store. Mind if I watch?" So he gets the shot set up and inserts a film holder, pulls the slide and takes the photo. Then he flips the holder and takes a backup.

I say, "Hey Mr. Arteaga, I never saw you take a meter reading. How'd you know to set the exposure?" He points up at the sky and says, "Bleep! the bleep bleepin' sun is shining! I was doing this before they invented bleep bleepin' exposure meters. I didn't need one then and I don't need one now!"

That was manual.

Joe


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## wsetser (Aug 9, 2012)

To me, Auto means turning a great deal of creative control over to whoever programed the camera. Manual means making all the creative decisions myself.


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## KmH (Aug 9, 2012)

Amen to that. &#8593; &#8593; &#8593; &#8593; &#8593;

There is auto, there is semi-auto, and there is manual.


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## Tuffythepug (Aug 9, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> Auto means you use an exposure meter and manual means you do it yourself.
> 
> Since you're bored I'll tell you a story. Back in the 1970s I used to hang out at St. Louis Photo where I eventually met Bob Arteaga. Mr. Arteaga was hired to photograph the construction of the Gateway Arch: St. Louis Arch Prints and St. Louis Arch Photographs One day I saw Mr. Arteaga on the street and he was taking a photo for St. Louis University. He was using an old Graflex 4x5 on a tripod and was working off the ground glass. I said, "Hi Mr. Arteaga I met you at the camera store. Mind if I watch?" So he gets the shot set up and inserts a film holder, pulls the slide and takes the photo. Then he flips the holder and takes a backup.
> 
> ...



Joe, Mr. Arteaga was using the same method I had to use back when I shot with a mid-50's model Rolleiflex.   In the absence of a built-in or hand-held meter I had to rely on the old "sunny 16" or basic Daylight exposure rule.  It will get you very close to correct exposure on a sunny day.   Also, if you are doing your own developing and printing  it's fairly easy to compensate for any minor exposure problems in the darkroom.  I'm sure Mr. Arteaga was more than competent in that department.   

 To me auto is really point and shoot territory while manual forces you to make creative decisions which may or may not work out.  But at least you are part of the process and not just an extension of the camera;  a flesh and blood tripod so-to-speak


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## MLeeK (Aug 9, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> Auto means you use an exposure meter and manual means you do it yourself.
> 
> Since you're bored I'll tell you a story. Back in the 1970s I used to hang out at St. Louis Photo where I eventually met Bob Arteaga. Mr. Arteaga was hired to photograph the construction of the Gateway Arch: St. Louis Arch Prints and St. Louis Arch Photographs One day I saw Mr. Arteaga on the street and he was taking a photo for St. Louis University. He was using an old Graflex 4x5 on a tripod and was working off the ground glass. I said, "Hi Mr. Arteaga I met you at the camera store. Mind if I watch?" So he gets the shot set up and inserts a film holder, pulls the slide and takes the photo. Then he flips the holder and takes a backup.
> 
> ...


Ya know... I have been thinking about your answer and not only do I 'get it,' I REALLY get it. I have been doing this so long that I can look at the surroundings and I know what my settings are going to be before I ever put the camera's meter to my eye. Maybe that's why I can't shoot in aperture or shutter priority-totally inept.
 I think there are A LOT of us who can do it. I think some of us can do it and don't really trust themselves enough.


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## Derrel (Aug 9, 2012)

"AUTO" to me means Aperture Priority automatic, where I pick the f/stop I need for the situation, and allow the camera to set the shutter. Manual means match-diode metering, OR  in the case of flash, me just setting an f/stop that's appropriate, and then setting the shutter to get the right balance of ambient (if I am "dragging the shutter, that speed is often 1/20 to 1/50 second), and if it's flash-as-main-light, usually 1/160 or 1/200, depending.


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## Garbz (Aug 9, 2012)

Manual is manual, auto is everything else. Do I shoot in auto? Of course. Just like I use cruise control on the highway, or use a paddle shifter in a sports car that doesn't mean I'm not still in full control of the results I get.


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## Fred Berg (Aug 10, 2012)

For me auto means having the camera ready and the least amount of delay between seeing and shooting, manual means making a new set of decisions for each exposure and taking my time over the process.

You can choose to use what tools your camera has to offer or you can do it all yourself; some people are okay with using the props and some are purists. However, missing a nice opportunity because you weren't ready is a bit like being knocked out in a TV quiz when you had jokers left but didn't use them.

I like to keep my camera ready just in case, but very often find myself taking the time anyway.


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## LizardKing (Aug 10, 2012)

Well... I have the opinion that it doesn't really matter how you take the photo, as long as you get what you envisioned. That means you took the time to actually 'envision' the picture before pressing the shutter.

There are times, in street photography for instance, where in order to 'get the shot' you need to rely in P mode, and there's nothing wrong with that. Same happens with A and S modes, and for these you can add that sometimes you only care about one of the 2 values and the other is unimportant given the situation. And finally, when you have the time and/or need, you have manual mode to have full creative control over the image.

Basically, it doesn't really matter as long as you understand HOW they work and WHY you're choosing one or the other. This doesn't justify all those fakers out there shooting P mode and thinking they're Ansel Adams or Henri Cartier-Bresson... I'm just saying that these modes are there and sometimes you can rely on them to get shots you'd otherwise miss.

It's the same with the metering mode for example... If you think you're great for shooting manual but always use matrix metering mode, then you better think again. It's all about choosing what's best for EACH shot and situation.


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## Derrel (Aug 10, 2012)

I like to go on the internet and brag to everybody that I drive my very own car EVERYWHERE I go--but *ONLY IN THIRD GEAR!!!!!!!!   *I also use only a steak knife as my single,sole eating utensil....*forks and spoons are for wussies!  *Even though some people think it's weird, I like to wear *athletic shorts every day *of the year, everywhere I go, no matter what; if it's a wedding, I will wear light-colored shorts, and if it's a funeral, of course, I wear my black Nike or Rawlings shorts. I have ONE approach to life's problems, and it works for *every single problem I encounter. *Life is so much simpler when a person commits, and I mean when a perspn totally commits, to doing everything he does the *same way,over and over and over and over*, every single, stinking time, in all facets of life!


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 10, 2012)

molested_cow said:


> So what does auto vs manual mean to you? I know this is pointless, I am just quite damn bored.




No Talent. Talent.


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## molested_cow (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> *forks and spoons are for wussies!  *




CHOP STICKS Derrel, CHOPS STICKS!!!


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## amolitor (Aug 10, 2012)

I was surprised to learn that, for most people, "manual" means setting the camera to M, and then adjusting aperture and shutter and ISO until the meter said "ok!" and then shooting. That's just weird.

I shoot like Derrel does.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> For me auto means having the camera ready and the least amount of delay between seeing and shooting, *manual means making a new set of decisions for each exposure and taking my time over the process.*
> 
> You can choose to use what tools your camera has to offer or you can do it all yourself; some people are okay with using the props and some are purists. However, missing a nice opportunity because you weren't ready is a bit like being knocked out in a TV quiz when you had jokers left but didn't use them.
> 
> I like to keep my camera ready just in case, but very often find myself taking the time anyway.



Where does this belief come from? The only time you have to make a new set of decisions is if the LIGHTING changes, Not the pose or anything else. RARELY does the lighting change with every image or even every 10th image. 

I can not shoot in a priority mode. It makes a mess of post for me. Camera meters are stupid as dung and they don't measure the amount of light in the scene, it measures the amount of light that is reflected back from whatever it happens to hit.  if I use a priority mode then my camera THINKS the lighting changes if I happen to hit an object that is light or darker than what will meter to proper exposure. I am then stuck fixing things in post. Pain in the butt for me!


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## amolitor (Aug 10, 2012)

That's interesting, MLeeK.

If you have a couple minutes, could you describe roughly how you handle making a shot? What are you thinking, and what adjustments are you making in response to what?

 I promise not to argue with you about how 'but you could do it this way or that' and I am genuinely interested.


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## Derrel (Aug 10, 2012)

I read an article MANY years ago (about 35 years ago,actually), written by a *famous and very talented *photographer, talking about how he had been assigned to shoot a big horse race...either the Kentucky Derby or The Preakness, as I recall. He described it as a "nightmare day", a springtime day, with the sun CONSTANTLY *peeking in and out* from behind the clouds, alternating between sun-lighted situations, and situations in which the sun was obscured by a constant,steady parade of clouds...an avowed Leica M-shooter, he made an "executive decision"--to shoot with a 35mm SLR that offered the then-almost-taboo "*automatic exposure setting*". He said that if he had stuck with his MANUAL-ONLY favored camera, he would have had NOTHING BUT HEADACHES, all day long, and might have accidentally forgotten to set the right exposure with his M-Leica,m and thus BLOWN A CRITICAL situation. He had been assigned to photograph numerous small groups of people, as well as all of the activities surrounding this big race. That one admission was made in Popular Photography magazine, around 1975 I think it was, and it was kind of a shocker to may people...a world-famous, TOP-level, ALL-MANUAL Leica M- photojournalist, admitting that he chose ANOTHER TYPE and BRAND OF CAMERA, entirely,* because it had "automatic exposure" capabilities!* And---shocker of shockers...he used a "hobbyist camera". The "pro" Nikons and the Canon F1 at that time did not have standard automatic exposure settings...it was all "human-powered"...f/stop was the left hand, shutter speed was set with the right hand...

Back then "automatic exposure" meant either A or S...Nikkormats used  "A" and NO professional Nikon F body had standard, built-in A mode until the F3!!!!...Konica had "S"...there were NO (as in none,nada, not-yet-invented) "P" modes yet. That came just a wee bit later. The old debate back then used to be about which of the two, *A*perture-priority automatic was the better way to go, or whether *S*hutter priority auto was the preferred "ideal".

LOL....my,my,my--how far we have come! Well, some of us,anyways.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

I think full manual intimidates too many people. It's NOT that hard at all. With assisted modes you have to watch your compensation and make sure to keep an eye on your OTHER setting to make sure it's adequate for your needs. People THINK you have to meter every. single. frame. You don't. You only have to change if the LIGHT changes, not the pose or whatever.

It depends what I am shooting how my settings are determined. But for the most part...
I dial in the settings I choose according to what I need: Shutter speed for sports or for a portrait? Aperture to obtain DOF? ISO to allow me to use those needs. 
Then I meter. I use grass as my metering a LOT. Make sure my settings are coming out where I think they should be. Take a shot of the general area I am shooting to make sure I am accurate on the screen. 
Shoot. I can see the meter in the eye piece and if it is starting to consistently change a little bit it's time to change, however that generally happens about twice within a football game. _You can see on your meter if you are changing 1/3 stop or 2/3 or... It's right there in little ticky marks how many times you have to click whatever it is you are changing (aperture, shutter or even ISO)_
In a portrait sitting outside the light rarely changes within a half hour in one spot. If I move into or out of the shade, the light changes and I can see how much it changed. It's a simple adjustment that can be done without going through the whole setup process again. 
I use spot metering. When my spot hits the subject it should always meter to the same spot on my meter. If I am shooting football my meter should always be the same when I hit the grass except during the brightest of the sunset if I am on the home side of the CLCS field. I also know that when I get to the end zone in most fields it's one to 3/3 exposure change depending on the field. I CAN SEE IT. I can see where the light is darker and lighter. I am dead on with my exposures being the same just by using my eyes and using my knowledge of light and camera. It's second nature. AND the meter TELLS me how much I need to "click" my dial.

With priority modes my problem is that post is HELL. f I have images in a football game where the light hits the field I get one exposure, if it hits the white jerseys I get another. If it hits the dark jerseys I get another and if it hits the black behind the field. I am shooting up to 6 games in a Saturday. I am NOT going to go thru and adjust up to 3000 images to accommodate priority mode. 
Post with a wedding really can suck dung if you hit the black tux with your meter and all of a sudden all of your whites in the bride's dress are blown. 

I have worked hands on with quite a few photographers who had always used priority modes and thought I was doing things the hard way until I showed them. Light doesn't change in every frame. You have eyes. You have a brain that is smarter than you give it credit for. It takes trusting in your eye and your knowledge.
 You can see if the light changes and you can see how much it changes. It doesn't change 2 stops between one frame to the next. It might change 1 stop in 15 minutes if you are working near to sunset. It may change 2 stops in 15 minutes if you are at that last few minutes before sunset and another 2 stops when the sun sets-then it holds for a short while before it rapidly changes. The same with sunup.Otherwise? It's pretty constant. 

In studio it IS constant. Never changes. I dial in the settings I want to use for the situation. Set my lighting to match what I want and I can shoot on until I want to change up the light. 
Inside it never changes. If I am shooting a basketball game, volleyball game, wrestling match, bowling... whatever it's always the same. However the same thing happens to jerseys as in football for basketball/volleyball/etc. With wrestling the mats are generally pretty dark, but the subjects singlets are all over the place. I could be shooting a white singlet on a black mat. There is a HUGE difference in what my exposure would be depending on what one I hit. Maybe it's the control freak in me?

It's not that I don't think priority modes are any good. I think they are fantastic and I admire those who can get consistent exposure with them. I know they do it because I have been around the block at least once. I am totally inept. Completely incompetent. Can't do it. I SUCK in a priority mode. Maybe just because I am stuck in my ways? Could very well be. I am not in my 20's (or my 30's) that stuck thing is setting in.


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## fjrabon (Aug 10, 2012)

Well, there is a LOT to this.

I don't ever use scene or P modes.  I actually don't even understand what the difference is between full auto and P mode.  To me automatic is A or S mode.  I use those frequently for certain shooting atmospheres.  If I'm shooting sports I usually shoot in S mode.  set the shutter speed to what I need for the correct amount of motion blur, set the ISO to the appropriate level for the lighting (unfortunately given the SS I need, really high, but that's sports), let the aperture fall where it may to get the shot.  Sports is about the moment, and if you're worrying about your depth of field and exposure at all, then you can miss that moment.  and Nikon's decisions are pretty good for sports shots.  Sure there are atmospheres where nikons get confused, but I've rarely encountered that in sports shots.  

I use A for my "what's on my camera in walk around" situations, especially street type atmospheres.  Set the ISO to 1600 and the aperture to f/8, and you can fire off a quick shot if you encounter a moment that you weren't anticipating.  f/8 and 1600 means you don't have to worry much about being steady and can focus all your energy on getting and capturing the correct frame, f/8 is usually deep enough that you don't have to worry too much about missing focus.  Noisy shots are better than blurry shots and modern cameras are okay at 1600, especially with a good noise reduction program.  

ANY shot that can be pre-planned, I use manual.  Though there are times when I'll shoot test shots in A mode, just to see what the camera thinks as well.  It can be sort of like having a second set of eyes.  Fire off a couple quick test shots at varying apertures, see which aperture I liked the best, then switch to manual, start with the SS it gave me, and then adjust from there based on how i feel the scene should be exposed.


Then there is also setting your flash manually v. TTL.  To me, if you're using flash off camera, you have time to plan, and should manually set your flash, meter, and set for what the meter says, take a test shot, and then adjust from what the light meter says by feel.  If you're shooting on camera flash, speed rules the day and TTL is okay.  You're likely shooting snapshots anyway if you're shooting on camera flash, even if you're bouncing.

One thing I find funny is photographers who 'claim' they shoot in manual, but will set either the shutter speed or aperture and leave it and then just adjust the other as their light meter reading changes.  If you're obeying the in camera light meter, you're shooting in A or S, but just making it more difficult.  Its also funny because the people who shoot like that tend to be the most vocal 'only shoot in manual mode' people.  The whole point of manual is to not use your in camera light meter for anything other than a reference.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> I read an article MANY years ago (about 35 years ago,actually), written by a *famous and very talented *photographer,  talking about how he had been assigned to shoot a big horse  race...either the Kentucky Derby or The Preakness, as I recall. He  described it as a "nightmare day", a springtime day, with the sun  CONSTANTLY *peeking in and out* from behind the clouds,  alternating between sun-lighted situations, and situations in which the  sun was obscured by a constant,steady parade of clouds...an avowed Leica  M-shooter, he made an "executive decision"--to shoot with a 35mm SLR  that offered the then-almost-taboo "*automatic exposure setting*".  He said that if he had stuck with his MANUAL-ONLY favored camera, he  would have had NOTHING BUT HEADACHES, all day long, and might have  accidentally forgotten to set the right exposure with his M-Leica,m and  thus BLOWN A CRITICAL situation. He had been assigned to photograph  numerous small groups of people, as well as all of the activities  surrounding this big race. That one admission was made in Popular  Photography magazine, around 1975 I think it was, and it was kind of a  shocker to may people...a world-famous, TOP-level, ALL-MANUAL Leica M-  photojournalist, admitting that he chose ANOTHER TYPE and BRAND OF  CAMERA, entirely,* because it had "automatic exposure" capabilities!*  And---shocker of shockers...he used a "hobbyist camera". The "pro"  Nikons and the Canon F1 at that time did not have standard automatic  exposure settings...it was all "human-powered"...f/stop was the left  hand, shutter speed was set with the right hand...
> 
> Back then "automatic exposure" meant either A or S...Nikkormats used   "A" and NO professional Nikon F body had standard, built-in A mode until  the F3!!!!...Konica had "S"...there were NO (as in none,nada,  not-yet-invented) "P" modes yet. That came just a wee bit later. The old  debate back then used to be about which of the two, *A*perture-priority automatic was the better way to go, or whether *S*hutter priority auto was the preferred "ideal".
> 
> LOL....my,my,my--how far we have come! Well, some of us,anyways.



Good  example. I am sure I run into it with football, but I honestly can't  think back to one game where I haven't trusted my sight. It's a click or  3. Maybe I am taking a huge risk. I probably am. I am also not shooting  the derby here, so I can't say as I have paid a ton of worry to it. I  manage to get out my money shots for every game and a whole bunch of  extras. I might feel different if it were a bit more critical. I don't  know. Right now I still trust my eyes and brain.
You said it in your previous post


Derrel said:


> * ...*Life is so much simpler when a person commits, and I mean when a perspn totally commits, to doing everything he does the *same way,over and over and over and over*, every single, stinking time...!


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## Derrel (Aug 10, 2012)

Bill Pierce Photographer



Photojournalism
Work published in Time, Life, Stern, Newsweek, U.S. News, The New York Times Sunday Magazine, New York Magazine, L'Express, Paris Match, and many other news publications.  


Major Awards
Overseas Press Oliver Rebbot Award for the best photoreporting from abroad. World Press Budapest Award. Leica Medal of Excellence for contributions to the "Homeless in America" project.




Permanent Collections
Nat'l. Portrait Gallery, Corcoran Gallery of Art, University or Arizona, Princeton University and individual collectors

(and occasionally, an AUTOMATIC EXPOSURE SHOOTER!   zOMG!!!!!!!!)


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## amolitor (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks, MLeeK, I see where you're coming from now.

That makes perfect sense. The football scenario (or any time you have a huge tonal range literally running around all over the frame) it makes sense to meter off a grey card (i.e. grass, which I have heard before mimics a grey card surprisingly well) makes it all clear.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Bill Pierce Photographer
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're talking to me, Derrel, you're preaching to the chior...



MLeeK said:


> It's not that I don't think priority modes are any good. *I think they  are fantastic and I admire those who can get consistent exposure with  them*. I know they do it because I have been around the block at least  once. *I am totally inept. Completely incompetent. Can't do it. I SUCK in  a priority mode.* Maybe just because I am stuck in my ways? Could very  well be. I am not in my 20's (or my 30's) that stuck thing is setting  in.




Amolitor-I am not saying it's how anyone HAS to shoot, but I think people make this whole exposure thing MUCH harder than it is too. 


amolitor said:


> Thanks, MLeeK, I see where you're coming from now.
> 
> That makes perfect sense. The football scenario (or any time you have a  huge tonal range literally running around all over the frame) it makes  sense to meter off a grey card (i.e. grass, which I have heard before  mimics a grey card surprisingly well) makes it all clear.


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## Derrel (Aug 10, 2012)

Metering the grass using Nikon's old 60/40% center-weighted light metering was an almost standard way of determining base-line exposure, for many Nikon shooters. The F and F2 and the "consumer" Nikon's had 60/40 CW metering; the F3 premiered a newer, 80/20 CW emphasis. Today's Nikons allow the USER to select the SIZE of the CW metering in the setup menu. The 12mm, scribed circle in the viewfinder screens of Nikons was, for decades, a huge advantage over most other brands of 35mm cameras. You KNEW, exactly, by scribed line, WHERE the metering area was, and you could swing the camera around, and literally WATCH the metering needle move up and down, as the meter's 12mm scribed circle of strongest influence was aimed at differing parts of the scene.

Center-weighted meterting is ONE thing: in the early 1980's, Nikon invented "Matrix" metering. Then, later, Nikon invented, and patented, Red green Blue color analyis or RGB metering, and incorporated that into 3-D, RGB, Matrix metering, for both ambient and flash. If you shoot a "dumb" brand of camera, or a "dumb" and color-blind model, like a 5D Classic, using AUTO metering can lead to disastrous results if the meter is not overridden ALL THE FRICKING TIME...a cheap, RGB-aware Nikon D40 is smarter, and can computer the RIGHT exposure in P mode....whereas my Canon 5D classic has absolutely RUINED MANY shots when the camera is handed over to a novice shooter, and the camera is pointed from a bright side of the boat, to the darker side of the boat, with more shaded water.

How much one can trust AUTO metering depends,in part, on what the camera's capabilities actually are, and HOW the system is set up, and how it was designed...not all cameras are equal...


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## amolitor (Aug 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Amolitor-I am not saying it's how anyone HAS to shoot, but I think people make this whole exposure thing MUCH harder than it is too.



Amen to THAT. I see a lot (and not just on TPF!) of circumstances where it almost seems like some people feel like mastering exposure is some Arcane Art, implying that it's simple is heresy, and newbies should basically be confused and impeded as much as possible in order to preserve the mystique of this Deep Magic that is exposure.


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## fjrabon (Aug 10, 2012)

amolitor said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > Amolitor-I am not saying it's how anyone HAS to shoot, but I think people make this whole exposure thing MUCH harder than it is too.
> ...



Exactly.  for a long time I felt like there had to be something I didn't 'get' about exposure, because apparently it seemed like it was something that should take months, if not years to understand according to many on this forum. After about a week of having my camera, I understood exposure, and when I was off on my exposure, it wasn't some sort of technical misunderstanding of exposure, but simply a wrong choice of how a scene should be exposed on my part.  

Like I really don't get what's difficult to understand about how SS, aperture and ISO work together.  Which is why the stock advice for newbies of "really study exposure for a month" is crazy to me.  That would be like telling an 8 year old to 'really study how adding the number 1-3 in all possible combinations works for at least a month before you even think about attempting subtraction or larger numbers than 3'

Now being able to see a scene and intuitively know how you want the scene exposed is a different matter entirely.  understanding the interplay of manually controlled flash and exposure could take some time.  But I don't think those are what people are talking about when people say "study exposure!"  It seems for all the world they're telling people it should take them months to understand higher ISO = brighter, wider aperture = brighter and slower shutter speed = brighter and the respective converses.


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## fjrabon (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Metering the grass using Nikon's old 60/40% center-weighted light metering was an almost standard way of determining base-line exposure, for many Nikon shooters. The F and F2 and the "consumer" Nikon's had 60/40 CW metering; the F3 premiered a newer, 80/20 CW emphasis. Today's Nikons allow the USER to select the SIZE of the CW metering in the setup menu. The 12mm, scribed circle in the viewfinder screens of Nikons was, for decades, a huge advantage over most other brands of 35mm cameras. You KNEW, exactly, by scribed line, WHERE the metering area was, and you could swing the camera around, and literally WATCH the metering needle move up and down, as the meter's 12mm scribed circle of strongest influence was aimed at differing parts of the scene.
> 
> Center-weighted meterting is ONE thing: in the early 1980's, Nikon invented "Matrix" metering. Then, later, Nikon invented, and patented, Red green Blue color analyis or RGB metering, and incorporated that into 3-D, RGB, Matrix metering, for both ambient and flash. If you shoot a "dumb" brand of camera, or a "dumb" and color-blind model, like a 5D Classic, using AUTO metering can lead to disastrous results if the meter is not overridden ALL THE FRICKING TIME...a cheap, RGB-aware Nikon D40 is smarter, and can computer the RIGHT exposure in P mode....whereas my Canon 5D classic has absolutely RUINED MANY shots when the camera is handed over to a novice shooter, and the camera is pointed from a bright side of the boat, to the darker side of the boat, with more shaded water.
> 
> How much one can trust AUTO metering depends,in part, on what the camera's capabilities actually are, and HOW the system is set up, and how it was designed...not all cameras are equal...



but derrel I've been told that the camera matters not, and it is completely the skill of the photographer that is the full totality of the thing.  I've been told that if you even suggest that some cameras can help produce better pictures than others, you are completely off the path of true photographical enlightenment.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

fjrabon said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Metering the grass using Nikon's old 60/40% center-weighted light metering was an almost standard way of determining base-line exposure, for many Nikon shooters. The F and F2 and the "consumer" Nikon's had 60/40 CW metering; the F3 premiered a newer, 80/20 CW emphasis. Today's Nikons allow the USER to select the SIZE of the CW metering in the setup menu. The 12mm, scribed circle in the viewfinder screens of Nikons was, for decades, a huge advantage over most other brands of 35mm cameras. You KNEW, exactly, by scribed line, WHERE the metering area was, and you could swing the camera around, and literally WATCH the metering needle move up and down, as the meter's 12mm scribed circle of strongest influence was aimed at differing parts of the scene.
> ...



I agree to Derrel-to an extent. I know that with all of the cameras I have owned in the past 3 years I use them a little differently. I know which on ewill give me which results and how they differ. 
I think it's more a matter of knowing your camera, it's strengths and weaknesses.


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## ghostdog (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm very new (a little over two years now) and I primarily use Av mode.  Since I mostly take portrait/cameo style pics of my kids using larger apertures, I never use auto mode.  For these types of pics, Auto just doesn't cut it.  It makes my 7D feel like a very good point and shoot.  Anyway, my question is does anyone every shoot in manual mode while setting the aperature & shutter speed to get the desired DOF while being able to stop motion (and/or obtain the right motion blur), while leaving the ISO setting at "Auto" to accomodate change in light conditions?  I know this might be taboo.


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## jake337 (Aug 10, 2012)

Manual is complete control.


I'm not sure how to control auto yet....


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## Fred Berg (Aug 10, 2012)

ghostdog said:


> I'm very new (a little over two years now) and I primarily use Av mode.  Since I mostly take portrait/cameo style pics of my kids using larger apertures, I never use auto mode.  For these types of pics, Auto just doesn't cut it.  It makes my 7D feel like a very good point and shoot.  Anyway, my question is *does anyone every shoot in manual mode while setting the aperature & shutter speed to get the desired DOF while being able to stop motion (and/or obtain the right motion blur), while leaving the ISO setting at "Auto" to accomodate change in light conditions?*  I know this might be taboo.




Not to mention leaving the autofocus on....


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## ghostdog (Aug 10, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> ghostdog said:
> 
> 
> > I'm very new (a little over two years now) and I primarily use Av mode.  Since I mostly take portrait/cameo style pics of my kids using larger apertures, I never use auto mode.  For these types of pics, Auto just doesn't cut it.  It makes my 7D feel like a very good point and shoot.  Anyway, my question is *does anyone every shoot in manual mode while setting the aperature & shutter speed to get the desired DOF while being able to stop motion (and/or obtain the right motion blur), while leaving the ISO setting at "Auto" to accomodate change in light conditions?*  I know this might be taboo.
> ...




I think we're mostly discussing camera modes (i.e., Auto, P, Av, Tv, Manual), not really autofocus vs. manual focus.  But yes, I use Autofocus... Spot AF or Zone AF.  When shooting shallow and when constructiong composition, I don't use the automatic 19 point selection.


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## Fred Berg (Aug 10, 2012)

ghostdog said:


> Fred Berg said:
> 
> 
> > ghostdog said:
> ...



I think a lot of people think they're shooting manual even though they have a lot of aids still switched on.


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## 480sparky (Aug 10, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> I think a lot of people think they're shooting manual even though they have a lot of aids still switched on.



When I get 'down and dirty' while shooting, the only Auto function in operation is file numbering.


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## jake337 (Aug 10, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> ghostdog said:
> 
> 
> > Fred Berg said:
> ...



All options are set to off at all times in my D90.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

What do the aids switched on matter? If you are shooting in raw they aren't applied anyway.


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## ghostdog (Aug 10, 2012)

Fred Berg said:


> ghostdog said:
> 
> 
> > Fred Berg said:
> ...



Ummm... I made no claim of shooting in full manual.  Where are you getting that from in my post.  Is there somewhere in my post that you are reading this, because I don't see it.  Read it again.  I clearly asked if anyone has shot using manual Av, and manual shutter, while using *auto* ISO.  The thread is about auto vs. manual modes, using metering, auto or manual focus points, etc.  You're the first poster who is bringing up *autofocus vs. manual focus* in this thread.  Why are you addressing a non-existant issue?  If you're not going to address my question, that's fine.  No need to suddenly bring up a new issue for the purpose of bringing up an off topic opinion of yours.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

I thought I was the only one that missed where Auto focus came into play! LOL!


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## ghostdog (Aug 10, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> I thought I was the only one that missed where Auto focus came into play! LOL!



Nope, not the only one.  He came out of left field with that one.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

ghostdog said:


> MLeeK said:
> 
> 
> > I thought I was the only one that missed where Auto focus came into play! LOL!
> ...


I seem to be missing a LOT of things today or not comprehending some of the rhetoric, so... Probably should be checked for ADhD!


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## skieur (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> I read an article MANY years ago (about 35 years ago,actually), written by a *famous and very talented *photographer, talking about how he had been assigned to shoot a big horse race...either the Kentucky Derby or The Preakness, as I recall. He described it as a "nightmare day", a springtime day, with the sun CONSTANTLY *peeking in and out* from behind the clouds, alternating between sun-lighted situations, and situations in which the sun was obscured by a constant,steady parade of clouds...an avowed Leica M-shooter, he made an "executive decision"--to shoot with a 35mm SLR that offered the then-almost-taboo "*automatic exposure setting*". He said that if he had stuck with his MANUAL-ONLY favored camera, he would have had NOTHING BUT HEADACHES, all day long, and might have accidentally forgotten to set the right exposure with his M-Leica,m and thus BLOWN A CRITICAL situation. He had been assigned to photograph numerous small groups of people, as well as all of the activities surrounding this big race. That one admission was made in Popular Photography magazine, around 1975 I think it was, and it was kind of a shocker to may people...a world-famous, TOP-level, ALL-MANUAL Leica M- photojournalist, admitting that he chose ANOTHER TYPE and BRAND OF CAMERA, entirely,* because it had "automatic exposure" capabilities!* And---shocker of shockers...he used a "hobbyist camera". The "pro" Nikons and the Canon F1 at that time did not have standard automatic exposure settings...it was all "human-powered"...f/stop was the left hand, shutter speed was set with the right hand...
> 
> Back then "automatic exposure" meant either A or S...Nikkormats used "A" and NO professional Nikon F body had standard, built-in A mode until the F3!!!!...Konica had "S"...there were NO (as in none,nada, not-yet-invented) "P" modes yet. That came just a wee bit later. The old debate back then used to be about which of the two, *A*perture-priority automatic was the better way to go, or whether *S*hutter priority auto was the preferred "ideal".
> 
> LOL....my,my,my--how far we have come! Well, some of us,anyways.



Yes, he probably used a Minolta, given the time period.

skieur


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## skieur (Aug 10, 2012)

You guys with the Nikons and Canons must have limited cameras or perhaps you don't read the manuals or use the features. 

Auto means determining aperture or shutter speed priority.  Autofocus which is more precise than manual focus in the majority of situations. Scene selection may run from portraits and skin colour control, through face recognition, subject tracking automatic control, landscape lighting, contrast, and filter auto adjustments, depth of field auto adjustments, hdr and backlight adjustments, and multi-shot lowlight control.  This and more can be programmed into your camera settings and used automatically.  You still have full control, because you can preprogram your auto/default settings to the type of photography that you do.

Moreover, less postprocessing is necessary afterward, because you are already closer to the shot that you want.

skieur


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 10, 2012)

I didn't read any of this thread.


Understanding the difference.


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## skieur (Aug 10, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> I didn't read any of this thread.
> 
> 
> Understanding the difference.



Trying to increase your post count????


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't pick up a camera and switch it to auto, I learned how to shoot manual from day one, I learned how to read light.  Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot auto, they have little control over what they are doing and most people don't care anymore, as long as they have something in the frame.

I understand the difference.  One takes buying a camera, the other is knowing how to use it.

One more for my post count, better?


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## manaheim (Aug 10, 2012)

AUTO is for wussy morons who can't handle things on their own.

MANUAL is for real men.   Men with hair on their chests.  Men with massive bulging muscles and raging packages.  Men who know where their towel is at.

Personally, I prefer the six speeds, but fives are ok too.

What?

Weren't we talking about cars?


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## Derrel (Aug 10, 2012)

"If a man doesn't coat his own Daguerrotype plates, he's a peckerwood."

"If a man shoots glass plates and not tinypes, he's a debutante weenie."

"If a man shoots with color and not B&W film, he doesn't know photography."

"If you don't raise your own beef, kill it, bleed it, gut it, hang it, skin it, locker it, age it  and THEN butcher it, and finally, cut and wrap it, you're a pu&&y."

See where this is going?


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

manaheim said:


> AUTO is for wussy morons who can't handle things on their own.
> 
> MANUAL is for real men.   Men with hair on their chests.  Men with massive bulging muscles and raging packages.  Men who know where their towel is at.
> 
> ...


Ahhhh, sh!t. I really don't want hair on my chest. Or a raging package. I'll take the muscle. And I drive a 6speed LT1 while my husband drives the 5speed porsche. I have really F'd something up here.


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## streetmuse (Aug 10, 2012)

I've been shooting on manual for a while now because it feels rewarding to know I've contributed more to my work. I resort to autofocus as a spur of the moment option for opportunities where I don't have the luxury of making changes.


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## 480sparky (Aug 10, 2012)

Derrel said:


> "If a man doesn't coat his own Daguerrotype plates, he's a peckerwood."
> 
> "If a man shoots glass plates and not tinypes, he's a debutante weenie."
> 
> ...



Yep.  Darrel grinds his own glass into lenses.


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## MLeeK (Aug 10, 2012)

streetmuse said:


> I've been shooting on manual for a while now because it feels rewarding to know I've contributed more to my work. *I resort to autofocus as a spur of the moment option for opportunities where I don't have the luxury of making changes.*


I bow to you. Manual focus is harder than hell and AF is usually more accurate. Those who can manual focus well consistently for anything more than macro have my respect.


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## amolitor (Aug 11, 2012)

Manual focus these days is horrible, since they took all the focusing aids away


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> Manual focus is harder than hell and AF is usually more accurate. Those who can manual focus well consistently for anything more than macro have my respect.




Do you think that digital has contributed to the decline of this ability?


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## PhotoWrangler (Aug 11, 2012)

amolitor said:


> Manual focus these days is horrible, since they took all the focusing aids away




Split screen is still working fine on my 1977 models...


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## 480sparky (Aug 11, 2012)

amolitor said:


> Manual focus these days is horrible, since they took all the focusing aids away



KatzEye.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 11, 2012)

On occation I still use my old 400 2.8 on my 1D series bodies and manual focus sports, it takes a little time getting into it, but it works just fine, I grew up doing it.  It's not as easy as autofocus, but the lens is sharper than any of my new glass, just more of a challenge.


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## greybeard (Aug 11, 2012)

Given that I never use scenes it means auto priority vs full manual


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## Fred Berg (Aug 11, 2012)

ghostdog said:


> Fred Berg said:
> 
> 
> > ghostdog said:
> ...



Um, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. You asked if people shot in manual with auto iso and I expanded this line of thought with the question of using auto focus. This was not aimed at you, it was a general thought. Hardly off topic and certainly no opinion.

Some other posters have certainly taken the position that manual is superior to auto but if you read right the way through the thread, you will see that I have already stated my position is it's okay to use both.


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## MLeeK (Aug 11, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> On occation I still use my old 400 2.8 on my 1D series bodies and manual focus sports, it takes a little time getting into it, but it works just fine, I grew up doing it.  It's not as easy as autofocus, but the lens is sharper than any of my new glass, just more of a challenge.


I actually think after a bit of trial and error I might be able to focus manually for sports better than other things, however for portraits? I  can screw it up REALLY WELL!


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## oneoutoften (Aug 11, 2012)

Auto means that you don't have to know as much about the camera. The company that made the camera are making all the decisions for you. Manual means that you have a lot more power over how the photo looks, but you need to know a lot more about the camera. I prefer manual because I can make the photo look exactly how I want it to.


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## 480sparky (Aug 11, 2012)

Manual = "I have a stove and an oven, as well as a fridge and freezer that are filled up.  I also have lots of cooking utensils and a fully stocked pantry. Plenty of small appliances, like a blender, mixer, griddle, etc.  Lots of spices to boot, and plenty of choices from the wine cellar.  So, what sounds good for dinner tonight?"

Auto = "I'm microwaving a TV dinner."


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 11, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > On occation I still use my old 400 2.8 on my 1D series bodies and manual focus sports, it takes a little time getting into it, but it works just fine, I grew up doing it.  It's not as easy as autofocus, but the lens is sharper than any of my new glass, just more of a challenge.
> ...



Here's a test I grew up with.  Sit on the side of the road and try to focus on car licence plates, with them coming towards you.


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## MLeeK (Aug 11, 2012)

Oh, dear Lord! 
That would be a hilarious day sitting by the road. Might just have to try that.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 11, 2012)

My Dad used to get other photographers to try it.  It is very challenging, especially when shooting with a 200mm or longer lens.  Just a word of warning, that would be sit on the sidewalk, no sitting in the middle of the road.  You'd be surprised how many idiots are out there.


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## Solarflare (Aug 11, 2012)

Nah, thanks, I'm good.

I'm 40 and I wear glasses. Not going to get to learn such reflexes anymore.

I will rather use one of these fast autofocus DSLRs for things like that.


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## MLeeK (Aug 11, 2012)

Solarflare said:


> Nah, thanks, I'm good.
> 
> I'm 40 and I wear glasses. Not going to get to learn such reflexes anymore.
> 
> I will rather use one of these fast autofocus DSLRs for things like that.


Well, I'm over 40... and sometimes I wear my glasses!


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## table1349 (Aug 11, 2012)

[h=2]What does "auto" and "manual" mean to you?[/h]
To me it means two things.

First it means that there are various modes for various photographers to choose from in various situations to achieve or at least attempt to achieve the photograph(s) they want. 

Secondly, it means another one of those Chevy/Ford, Canon/Nikon, Ketchup/Mustard, threads that really have little meaning with much debate.  

Just my 2 cents.


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## skieur (Aug 20, 2012)

Actually it is manual, auto and/or preprogrammed using scene and other adjustments and recording them onto a memory or creative choice on your camera dial.  Auto and pre-programmed are now covering more variations than ever before.  One manual indicated that they would cover any scene that you could possibly run into.

Those of you who wish to get the shot and move on, as well as to spend less time in post would probably be better off pre-programming your OWN auto for the type of scenes that you like to shoot and doing a little extra personal tweeking in post.

skieur


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## skieur (Aug 20, 2012)

MLeeK said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > On occation I still use my old 400 2.8 on my 1D series bodies and manual focus sports, it takes a little time getting into it, but it works just fine, I grew up doing it. It's not as easy as autofocus, but the lens is sharper than any of my new glass, just more of a challenge.
> ...



But with face detection auto-focus, you are not likely to be able to manually focus even for sports better or faster than the camera.

skieur


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## Majeed Badizadegan (Aug 20, 2012)

Auto: I want the tiny microchip brain in my camera to make all the exposure decisions for me. 
Manual: I want to have full control over the exposure decisions.


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## manaheim (Aug 21, 2012)

Manual="I shall google and search TPF for this topic and read the other 12 million threads that have been posted and beaten to death on it."

Auto="I shall ask about the difference between manual and auto... Again."

For bonus points...

Aperture priority="I shall ask (again) about auto vs manual, but only see half the answers and argue with people."

Shutter priority="I shall get on the auto vs manual thread and make drive-by snarky remarks without adding to the discussion."


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## BRN1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Auto mode means the camera sets everything to try and get what it calculates to be the best exposure. 
Manual means OM-1. I set everything myself with the help of a light meter. 

As for semi-auto modes, like AP or SP that still leaves a lot of control at my discretion; they are more manual to me. 

My D7000 has many scene modes that can do all or let me tweak them some. These are more auto to me, and I'm trying to use these to learn more.


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## Mike_E (Nov 26, 2012)

Auto = car.

Manual = the book I should have read when I got my camera.


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## runnah (Nov 26, 2012)

Auto = The type of gun I want to use when one of these threads pop up.

Manual = A Mexican gentleman.


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## manaheim (Nov 26, 2012)

Mike_E said:


> Auto = car.
> 
> Manual = the book I should have read when I got my camera.



MIKE!  BAD!  You revitalized and old thread.  You know better!


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## Luke345678 (Nov 27, 2012)

This is my personal opinion, were all different so please don't hate!

I believe auto still requires skill. You still need to find a nice picture and make sure everything looks good just the camera does most of the shooting for you. 

Manual is a whole lot more fun and requires more skill to me. You can mess with the shot and make it how you want it!


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## jrizal (Nov 27, 2012)

I shoot in manual mode most of the time. And when i shoot auto is when I'm lazy and wished I just brought my old P/S.


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## skieur (Nov 27, 2012)

KmH said:


> Amen to that. &#8593; &#8593; &#8593; &#8593; &#8593;
> 
> There is auto, there is semi-auto, and there is manual.



Actually on the most recent cameras there is Auto, Auto+, Programme, Pre-Programmed, Scene mode, Picture mode and Manual.

skieur


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## skieur (Nov 27, 2012)

The auto/manual views are pretty amusing.

1. First photographer carries around a ton of camera equipment, often gets accosted by security guards, and sometimes the police. Sets up his tripod, takes his camera and lens out of his case and attaches it, chooses a filter and installs it, frames his shot using manual of course, perhaps brackets his shot, tries another lens, takes another shot, and then eventually puts everything away and goes home to spend lots of time editing his shots on the computer. Question, how many shots did he miss, while he was setting up and taking down his equipment?

2. Second photographer goes out with a 15mm to 50mm macro on his camera and presets his camera to the type of shooting he is doing ie. face detection, high dynamic range, back lighting, handheld low light, etc. He shoots off a bracketed burst, tries a handheld HDR and a handheld panorama. He does more shots in less time than the first photographer and has less processing and editing to do, afterwards.

These are perhaps the 2 extremes, but for pros time is money. There are definitely advantages for some pros to lean toward the second rather than the first.  It obviously depends on the type of photography that you do.

skieur


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