# Images taken By police



## O'Rork (Nov 7, 2009)

I got singled out because of my gear, without any posted restrictions. I feel like one of the seven dwarfs and it ain't Happy.


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## dhilberg (Nov 7, 2009)

Sorry man, that sucks. However, restore the images if you can, they are yours.

You were coerced into destroying images that were your property. Regardless of whether or not photography is allowed on the premises of a private venue, once you have taken images, they are yours, by law. Short of a court order, private parties or law enforcement have no right to force you to destroy images, nor can they confiscate your film/memory cards (unless you're being arrested). Since it's private property, they can ask you to leave, but that's it.

You neglected to elaborate on your discussion with the three officials and a cop. What were they saying to you?

Next time, take a few printouts of this so you know your rights:
The Photographer's Right


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## battletone (Nov 7, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> I attended "ARENACROSS" at Well Fargo Arena in Des Moines, Iowa tonight. I took my D300 with 70-200 2.8 and no add on flash or bag. My ticket has **NO VIDEO CAMERAS** printed on it. At the door the door man asked if it took video. I answered no, just photos. I had taken a hundred images when a plain clothes person asked me if I had a permit for that camera. I answered no. He said I would have to destroy the images. I said, get a cop. After a log discussion with three officials and a cop. I destroyed the images. On their building it is posted "NO HIGH PERFORMANCE RECORDING EQUIPMENT". The ticket said no video cameras. The officials said it's on their website Iowa Events Center - Home . I couldn't find anything about photo gear on their website.
> They let me in with it, at the door after viewing it and asking about video. I am not at all happy about this.
> I intend to ask a lawyer, and most definitely pursue the issue upon advisement from council.
> 
> ...


I really feel bad for you.  I really do.  This is the problem with "authority".
I have heard if you have not taken any pictures on the card since then, you can recover what has been deleted.  Check into it.

On the other hand....

digital voice recorder - Google Product Search

Don't get caught with your pants down next time.  You see a cop or security officer coming at you, or if they sneak up to you, start recording.  ...and just remember ONE thing about law enforcement - if they have the right, they won't ask.


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## Gabriel (Nov 7, 2009)

Welcome to the new era, where photographers are newly found enemies. Cops now see us as security threats, parks see us as freeloaders, and corporations see us as threats to their livelihood. 

I'm exaggerating a little, but over the past year I have been "told to leave" more times than in over a decade of shooting. I wasn't doing a guerilla shoot, nor did I have a crew; and I certainly wasn't shooting commercially at the time (I get permission for that). Sometimes you really just have to leave, unless you are willing to get arrested over it, but in this country, you don't have to delete your images. This may have been your choice, and I won't give you my opinion on it either way, but just know that not even a police officer can take your film or storage media without a court order, unless they are making an arrest. 

If the entity prohibits photography at their events, they must clarify this in a nonequivocal way. This is not something that should be open to interpretation, nor to an official's arbitrary judgment. Cell phone images are hardly usable in an arena environment, but they are still photographs. 

If you do consult a lawyer, I'd be curious to hear what they said you could do in this case. I don't think you'll be getting any kind of compensation - and that's probably not what you're after, anyway - but if you can get the arena to change, or at least clarify it's policies, I would think that you've won at least one battle.


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## Gabriel (Nov 7, 2009)

dhilberg said:


> Sorry man, that sucks. However, restore the images if you can, they are yours.
> 
> You were coerced into destroying images that were your property. Regardless of whether or not photography is allowed on the premises of a private venue, once you have taken images, they are yours, by law. Short of a court order, private parties or law enforcement have no right to force you to destroy images, nor can they confiscate your film/memory cards (unless you're being arrested). Since it's private property, they can ask you to leave, but that's it.
> 
> ...



Thank you - I actually have that printout in my camera bag, but lost the original site years ago. I was just looking for it on my laptop, to post it on here.


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## battletone (Nov 8, 2009)

dhilberg said:


> Short of a court order, private parties or law enforcement have no right to force you to destroy images, nor can they confiscate your film/memory cards (unless you're being arrested). Since it's private property, they can ask you to leave, but that's it.


...nor can they view them without a court order.



dhilberg said:


> Next time, take a few printouts of this so you know your rights:
> The Photographer's Right





Gabriel said:


> Thank you - I actually have that printout in my camera bag, but lost the original site years ago. I was just looking for it on my laptop, to post it on here.


That isn't a legal document by any means and will have no weight when the cops/security are telling how it is going to be.  It is just a general idea of your rights in most places.  It is good to figure them out, but to assert your rights with authority it is much easier to stand your ground when you know them off the top of your head.  Otherwise they know you are just a couple more pushes away from running out of responses.


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## battletone (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> a receipt from the cop for the images taken.





Too bad when this all goes down, it will be that you did this of your own free will.  Thats just how the system works.


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## Gabriel (Nov 8, 2009)

battletone said:


> That isn't a legal document by any means and will have no weight when the cops/security are telling how it is going to be.  It is just a general idea of your rights in most places.  It is good to figure them out, but to assert your rights with authority it is much easier to stand your ground when you know them off the top of your head.  Otherwise they know you are just a couple more pushes away from running out of responses.



I understand that. I keep it as a reference only, but it's good to have. I've been a stringer for a small newspaper, and I know what it's like to deal with overzealous rent-a-cops and actual police. I have not, however, been told to delete my images.


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## Atlas77 (Nov 8, 2009)

wow, these days photographers are like skateboarders. but skateboarders get asked to leave because they destroy property. Photographers on the other hand dont do anything bad. 

Fight the power! eacesign: eacemrgreen:

(sorry for the useless post btw.)


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## Gabriel (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> I did not do this of my own free will. The cop told me to do either, delete or surrender. My free will was to retain my device. His directive Forced me to do either. I might also state that the cop said I didn't have to an a$$ hole about it. I took that as a clue to no longer state my case and avoid a Monday morning arraignment.
> 
> I've got my ducks in a row on this and I assure you I will seek council.



Good. Too many people are willing to get trampled on because they are already convinced that they will lose the argument. You're not only standing your ground, you're fighting for some pretty basic rights for all photographers. If you can at least shake these jerks up a bit, you may have gotten somewhere.


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## battletone (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> I did not do this of my own free will. The cop told me to do either, delete or surrender. My free will was to retain my device. His directive Forced me to do either. I might also state that the cop said I didn't have to an a$$ hole about it. I took that as a clue to no longer state my case and avoid a Monday morning arraignment.
> 
> I've got my ducks in a row on this and I assure you I will seek council.



You missed my sarcasm....I meant, next time you see him (if you do), the cops story will be quite different than yours.  

But you chose to delete your images rather than say no.  Cops are allowed to lie to you.  They do it all time.  Just watch COPS or youtube if you don't already believe it from your first hand experience.  Its a hard call to make with a job in morning, but it comes down to your call.  But for an issue like this, the cop is very unlikely to take you in for this at this type of venue if you are not getting out of hand.  Him calling you an asshole is normal.  I simply asked a cop what a statute was that prohibited photography at the airport under the approach... 1 year trespass warning ban from the premises for being "belligerent to officer".  The best thing you can do though is say, "I have no problems leaving but I have nothing else to say without an attorney."  Then let him blow off some steam before he kicks you loose.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 8, 2009)

You followed the instructions of law enforcement, even though said LEO was out-of-line. In Canada, such coercion is actually assault on one's property. State-by-state laws in the US may vary (this is one thing I *hate* about the US).

I for one, find it strange that the officer involved wasn't on your side. I would've asked for the presence of another officer, or simply and flatly refused. That either gets you out of the situation, or forces them to arrest you, in which case it's wrongful arrest and you would have a definite case against the arresting officer. The photos would be seized as evidence, but they can't destroy them if they do so.


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## Josh66 (Nov 8, 2009)

musicaleCA said:


> [...] or forces them to arrest you, in which case it's wrongful arrest and you would have a definite case against the arresting officer.



But you still have to spend the night (or weekend) in jail.  That's why most people just comply...



Personally, I would have just told them "OK, I'll just leave then".  If they didn't let me leave (with my pictures) I'm not sure what I would do.
If I didn't work where I work, I would probably make them arrest me.
But, since just getting arrested (guilty or not) would likely cause me to get fired - I would do everything I could to avoid that.


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## musicaleCA (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> You folks could send e-mails and tell the photo world to also email and telephone the Iowa events center and show some support for our passion. Imagine how much work will get done Monday morning and how smooth their day will be if deluged with concerned correspondence from masses of ordinary people who take extraordinary images of ordinary people doing extraordinary things for their own enjoyment.



If you really want to do that, I suggest Twitter, MySpace, Facebook, your website/blog if you have one, Digg, and linking them all together to generate interest. Don't forget to link to their email addresses.  

It sucks that you were pressured into it. In any case, if it happens in future, I would suggest deleting all the images, not by reformatting, but by using the "delete all" function on the camera. Then avoid writing data to the card. That way, at least some of the data will be recoverable. Well, hopefully. Best try to recover files by either formatting or the "delete all" function first. Doing so could get you out of a nasty situation like this but still let you keep the images.

Gods the US has gotten crazy, hasn't it?


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## Gabriel (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> I have never beet the system. By my choice, I avoided arrest. It was stated by the cop I WOULD do one or the other. Three event/arena officials were privy to all of this. Should the time come, if only the cop lies he'll being wearing the egg on his head. But, I don't suppose it will go that way. They all four were adamant about the whole ordeal. I was painted as the problematic person in question. With only those four and me to tell the tale, I don't think the truth will be supported. But, it seems to me, attorneys have private detectives and telephones so the versions of those involved should be known before any legal action is taken, if ever.
> 
> You folks could send e-mails and tell the photo world to also email and telephone the Iowa events center and show some support for our passion. Imagine how much work will get done Monday morning and how smooth their day will be if deluged with concerned correspondence from masses of ordinary people who take extraordinary images of ordinary people doing extraordinary things for their own enjoyment.



I can't find an e-mail on the site, just a "comment card," but what do you want me to say about your situation? I'll gladly give them a concerned reminder about a photographer's rights, but do you want me to refer to your situation specifically? 

There's not much space, but I could say something like, "I'm seriously concerned about an incident that I was told, where your security staff, and the police officer that was present, coerced a fellow photographer to delete his images from his camera before he could leave your arena," and then go on to tell them about our rights. Good?


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## FrankLamont (Nov 8, 2009)

Technically (again depending) they may have been able to confiscate it for evidence, but... 

A "no" would have been fine. They ask you to leave... make a choice. 

Let us know how it turns out!


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## Gabriel (Nov 8, 2009)

As mentioned before, with some recovery software, you should be able to get your images back from the card.

I sent them the following commentary:

"I'm seriously concerned about an incident that I was told, where your security staff, and the police officer that was present, coerced a fellow photographer to delete his images from his camera before he could leave your arena parking lot. Apparently, there was no clear signage stating that still photography was not allowed. I can not find any relevant info on your website either. 

I am appalled that your security staff and detail would engage in what is ultimately an illegal act - by law, no one, not even a police officer, can demand the destruction/deletion of a photographer's images, nor the confiscation of such without a court order. 

Security and police detail, whether ignorant of the law or choosing arbitrarily to ignore it, must respect a photographer's rights at all times. This incident is, at best, an absolute embarrassment for your company. 

Sincerely,

Gabriel Diaz
Gabriel J. Diaz Photography"


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## farmerj (Nov 8, 2009)

*IF* you are going to do something about this.

IANAL, That said.....

Right now you need to stop, shut-up and STOP posting any comments on the internet.  Don't say ANYTHING to ANYONE until you talk to a lawyer.
 
IT WILL become part of your case and CAN be used to discredit you.

Take your video card and set it to the side and LEAVE IT ALONE. It's evidence for the lawyer to decide what to do with.

If nothing else, you might be able to recover images at a later date.


 Civil law is based off "presumption of a reasonable person." NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Google it if you need to understand the difference.


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## O'Rork (Nov 8, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies and Thank You Gabriel for your time to write them.


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## battletone (Nov 8, 2009)

Check your PM.


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## Neal (Nov 8, 2009)

Unless you have taken many photo on the card since you deleted them, some are recoverable. The delete on the cameras doesn't really delete the image it just makes them harder to get at. Check the internet, there are several photo recovery programs that will get the images back.


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## KmH (Nov 8, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> Thank you all for your replies and Thank You Gabriel for your time to write them.


Complaint Letters: How To Launch An Executive Email Carpet Bomb


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## skieur (Nov 8, 2009)

Find a lawyer and lay a charge against the police officer of "illegal search and seizure". There is also a police complaints board in most cities. I would file a complaint of illegal search and seizure there as well.

If you followed a police directive through intimidation that he had no right to give, then he is at fault. In the US it also means that he violated your civil rights.

skieur


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## FilmaTroy (Nov 8, 2009)

Atlas77 said:


> wow, these days photographers are like skateboarders. but skateboarders get asked to leave because they destroy property. Photographers on the other hand dont do anything bad.
> 
> Fight the power! eacesign: eacemrgreen:
> 
> (sorry for the useless post btw.)



that not entirely true. and i would suggest you not single out skatebaorders like that as i find that offensive. seeing as i am a skateboarder. and you say photographers dont do anything bad... im sure that more than 95% of photographers on this site have broken the law of trespassing just to get a good shot or two. and im sure you have as well at least once


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## Plato (Nov 8, 2009)

O|||||||O said:


> musicaleCA said:
> 
> 
> > [...] or forces them to arrest you, in which case it's wrongful arrest and you would have a definite case against the arresting officer.
> ...



I am certainly no expert but it sounds to me that you would also have a case against your employer, or ex-employer as the case may be.


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## KmH (Nov 8, 2009)

FilmaTroy said:


> that [sic] not entirely true. and [sic] i [sic] would suggest you not single out skatebaorders [sic] like that as i [sic] find that offensive. seeing [sic] as i [sic] am a skateboarder. and [sic] you say photographers dont [sic] do anything bad... im [sic] sure that more than 95% of photographers on this site have broken the law of trespassing just to get a good shot or two. and [sic] im [sic] sure you have as well at least once [sic]


Your shift key and apostrophy keys don't seem to be working, you should get it checked out.

This statement "im [sic] sure that more than 95% of photographers on this site have broken the law of trespassing just to get a good shot or two.", lowers you right to the same level you were offended by.


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## Hobbes (Nov 8, 2009)

wow! Where did that happen? It sounds more like Iran or Taliban controlled Afghanistan -.-


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## ANDS! (Nov 8, 2009)

To the OP; sure you could have been arrested.  COULD.  No cop in his right mind is going to arrest you for failing to delete photographs of private property.  Because they know they are in the wrong.  He would have perhaps searched for your name in a database to see if there were any arrestable offenses and then let you off.  Period.  You can not be arrested for taking photographs.  EVEN IF it stated that you do not have the right to do so by the PRIVATE PROPERTY.  At BEST they can sue you civilly (which again they wouldn't).  I would be very surprised to find an on the book civil ordinance granting private properties the power to make such arrestable laws such as the one you think the cop would have gotten you for.  It's not about "photographers" rights - its about how laws work.


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## farmerj (Nov 8, 2009)

point for next time....

Just create a new folder in the camera and show the contents of that folder to them.  What's the likelyhood someone would know?


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## FilmaTroy (Nov 8, 2009)

KmH said:


> FilmaTroy said:
> 
> 
> > that [sic] not entirely true. and [sic] i [sic] would suggest you not single out skatebaorders [sic] like that as i [sic] find that offensive. seeing [sic] as i [sic] am a skateboarder. and [sic] you say photographers dont [sic] do anything bad... im [sic] sure that more than 95% of photographers on this site have broken the law of trespassing just to get a good shot or two. and [sic] im [sic] sure you have as well at least once [sic]
> ...


oh my i forgot the internet grammer police were on this forum, its the ****ing internet dude, get over it.. im not sending in an editorial to a newspaper...


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## battletone (Nov 8, 2009)

I am still confused at what "receipt" this cop gave you for deleting your images.


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## ANDS! (Nov 8, 2009)

They wouldn't have been able to charge you with trespassing either.  Especially as you were on your way out of the facility.  Also the private property certainly can dictate what you can and can not do on their premise.  If you choose to do what you can not do, all they can do is call the police to have you removed - taking the photos isn't illegal.  I know that may not make sense, but it's not the taking of the photographs that would get you tossed in jail - it would be refusing to leave after you violate their rules that would.  You could take a **** load of photographs and be hunky dory as far as that is concerned.

Also, as someone already said - unless you wrote zeroes to this card, your images are still there.  Just use some cheap data recovery software to get them back.


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## djacobox372 (Nov 9, 2009)

If this happened to me I would just format the card, then go home and restore it via a file rescue utility.


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## skieur (Nov 9, 2009)

O'Rork said:


> As for me deleting the images, it appears I did it of my own free will as I did not refuse to do so. My refusal would have possibly led to a course of action by the arena officials and/or the policeman that may have violated laws against illegal search and seizure . My bad there, too.
> 
> Bummer.


 
Sorry, but you obviously don't understand the law. Legally you did not delete the images of your own free will, given the obvious fact that a policeman, as an authority figure was intimidating and threatening you to make that decision. That is how good attorneys would present it and many judges would view it. So, illegal search and seizure is relevant whether you deleted them or not. The legal question is: Under what circumstances did you delete them? and Did any actions or words of the police or security agents force or intimidate you to delete them?

Remember the law is based on exact and precisie definitions. "Free will" means without any intimidation pyschological or physical, restraint, or persuasion to make any particular choice or decision. Put another way: "Would you have deleted the images without being given the limited choice by the policeman? If not, then free will was not involved.

skieur


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## Hobbes (Nov 10, 2009)

hmm you can easily sue someone for copyright infringement in the States so can't you sue those fascists for sorta forced you deleting your work? If I were you I would refuse and if they do anything to me and my equipment I would sue their asses


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## patrickt (Nov 10, 2009)

I've always recommended that people go to a photography forum to get legal advice. I get my computer advice from political forums. Of course, it does give an opportunity for those who have no idea what they're talking about to expound at length.

Go talk to an attorney. The first meeting, where he will explain you have no grounds for a lawsuit, will be free.


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## Plato (Nov 10, 2009)

patrickt said:


> I've always recommended that people go to a photography forum to get legal advice. I get my computer advice from political forums. Of course, it does give an opportunity for those who have no idea what they're talking about to expound at length.
> 
> Go talk to an attorney. The first meeting, where he will explain you have no grounds for a lawsuit, will be free.


 

:lmao:


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## Joves (Nov 10, 2009)

skieur said:


> O'Rork said:
> 
> 
> > As for me deleting the images, it appears I did it of my own free will as I did not refuse to do so. My refusal would have possibly led to a course of action by the arena officials and/or the policeman that may have violated laws against illegal search and seizure . My bad there, too.
> ...


 Exactly! You were coerced into deleting them with threats. No different than if a private individual threatens you.


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## Gabriel (Nov 10, 2009)

I finally got a response from these guys:

"Mr. Diaz, 
Thanks for the email regarding a referenced incident from Wells Fargo Arena.  We are currently reviewing information from Saturday night with our staff, as we do after each event.  I appreciate your comments and the time you took to contact us.  Many events have different photography policies, and we work to enforce and support those policies.  These can range from absolutely no video, audio, or still photography allowed, to no professional cameras.

Thanks again,

 Adam Flack
Director of Marketing
Iowa Events Center"

I'll hold off on responding for the moment. It seems he's saying the photo policies are dictated by the people holding the event, not the arena (which is how it usually goes). I'm curious to see if he actually comes back with any kind of report from that night.


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## ANDS! (Nov 10, 2009)

> Exactly! You were coerced into deleting them with threats.



I didn't see anything in the OP's description that said he was threatened with jail time or arrest if he didn't delete the card.  Perceived Threat != Legitimate Threat.  One could certainly argue that the presence of the police officer made the OP feel like his freedom was being threatened, but the cop (and anyone demanding he delete the material) could simply say he was asked to delete the photos of his own regard.  Also, the OP himself ASKED for a cop, no cops were summoned (I assume) by event staff in regards to them noticing the camera.


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## farmerj (Nov 10, 2009)

> After a log discussion with three officials and a cop. I destroyed the images.



WHAT was discussed was never told.

I hope he has taken the advice and decided to shut up and lawyer up until he can figure this out.


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## skieur (Nov 10, 2009)

dhilberg said:


> Sorry man, that sucks. However, restore the images if you can, they are yours.
> 
> You were coerced into destroying images that were your property. Regardless of whether or not photography is allowed on the premises of a private venue, once you have taken images, they are yours, by law. Short of a court order, private parties or law enforcement have no right to force you to destroy images, nor can they confiscate your film/memory cards (unless you're being arrested). Since it's private property, they can ask you to leave, but that's it.
> 
> ...


 
This view is legally accurate. :thumbup:

skieur


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## Joves (Nov 10, 2009)

ANDS! said:


> > Exactly! You were coerced into deleting them with threats.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't see anything in the OP's description that said he was threatened with jail time or arrest if he didn't delete the card. Perceived Threat != Legitimate Threat. One could certainly argue that the presence of the police officer made the OP feel like his freedom was being threatened, but the cop (and anyone demanding he delete the material) could simply say he was asked to delete the photos of his own regard. Also, the OP himself ASKED for a cop, no cops were summoned (I assume) by event staff in regards to them noticing the camera.


 Confinscation of ones property is a threat as well and, if he had stood his ground it no doubt would have led to threat of arrest. I have been there and, done that and, won.


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## epp_b (Nov 10, 2009)

Next time, just format the card in-camera.  This only deletes the partition table, which effectively flags the files as "hide me".  You can later restore them using any old freeware data recovery software.

Even better, keep an empty folder on the card.  When asked to delete your pictures, just switch to the empty folder.


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## ssnxp (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm very interested in seeing how this turns out.. I'm still new to the legal side of photography.


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## KD5NRH (Nov 16, 2009)

epp_b said:


> Next time, just format the card in-camera.  This only deletes the partition table, which effectively flags the files as "hide me".  You can later restore them using any old freeware data recovery software.
> 
> Even better, keep an empty folder on the card.  When asked to delete your pictures, just switch to the empty folder.



Or better still, look at any amateur magic site and learn to switch items.  Memory cards are tiny compared to a fair number of the items closeup magicians learn to palm as one of the most basic parts of their routines, and it's easy to swap for a blank one, dropping the full one into a pocket.  Format before they see the "no images on card" message, show them "format complete" and get out.  In case they might watch you like a hawk, you could snap a couple of junk shots on the spare card, then switch to your "working" one for the good stuff.  Then when confronted, make the switch, show them a couple of pictures clearly taken at the event, and format.

You can still fight it out later if you decide not to use the images, (claiming in court that they made you delete all the images could go badly if their lawyer notices your website has a lot of pics from the event) but having the images unharmed and them off your back leaves you to make that choice at your leisure.


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## battletone (Nov 16, 2009)

Slight of hand is not something to be doing around a cop unless you want to end up face down on the concrete....or worse.


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## epp_b (Nov 16, 2009)

^^ fix that quote, skieur, I never said any of that stuff


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## skieur (Nov 16, 2009)

skieur said:


> KD5NRH said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, the images are yours, so there is NO necessity whatsoever to fight anything in court.
> ...


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## Hocus Focus (Nov 27, 2009)

Interesting subject. As both a private venue security officer and a [ex] professional photographer, I've been on both sides of this story.

Last year at my site there was an accident and the closest security officer was dispatched to bring the few photogs at the scene to the security office to have their pix "reviewed." 

I was not on duty that day, but I have real reservations about doing such a detention for review. I claim no rights to do such detentions and would have refused to take any such action. 

-- I am not a lawyer. Taking my advice without reviewing your case with appropriate professionals may get you expensively fined or uncomfortably encarcerated.


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## UUilliam (Nov 28, 2009)

FUUUUUU RAGE!!!!!!
I just read the whole thread then noticed its a week old!

but Ill post anyway.

There is a program called Recuva, if you haven't filled your card yet, you just may be able to retrieve them

the link is in my signature - great program and totally free!


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