# Light a Drinking Glass



## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

The goal is to create a visually appealing image of a powdered product as it is poured into a glass.  Here is what I came up with; comments and suggestions are appreciated.


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## korreman (May 26, 2014)

I like the first one most, it has some motion in it, makes it feel fresher. #2 looks too unsymmetrical (the water is not level). #3 looks unclean IMO, the overflow thing only works with beer, as people who buy powdered drink are gonna aim for convenience. That does not look convenient.

But #1 has motion (fresh), is pretty symmetrical, is clean (convenient and fresh again), and shows the coolest part of powdered drinks, the dissolving part


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Thank you for your reply.  I didn't notice the water level in the second image; you are right, it's not level.  I can fix that in Lightroom. I appreciate your observation about the freshness.  The idea at this point is to use a series as a banner or a slideshow on a web page so the final image will be an image of the glass with the product fizzing.   

I see your point about the overflowing image.  We want to present this as convenient and not give the idea that the drink overflows.


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## Braineack (May 26, 2014)

the first is good, but it needs flags to separate it from the bg.  the rest are unappealing.


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## KmH (May 26, 2014)

The back edge of the rim of the glass should have better definition.
Light Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting

I think you would need to subtract light as well as flag.


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## Derrel (May 26, 2014)

I think the very,very white background is stealing all the thunder here; a dark backdrop would make the powder stand out much more, and would pull the eye much,much less. The upper part of the background is just too "hot"...too bright...the extreme backlighting is making it a challenge for my eye to remain firmly focused on the drink.


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## Designer (May 26, 2014)

"Visually appealing" huh?  To me, this concoction is not appealing, as in; would I want to then drink this stuff.  No.

Also, use the same glass for all photographs.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Where should I put the flags?  I am not an expert at this, and I appreciate your suggestion.  I need some help to understand what you mean by separation from the background?  

As you can see in the photo of the set there is a line between the foamboard on the table and the one used for the background.  I wanted to blend the two boards so the line would not appear distinct.  So, I pointed the light along the line where these two boards meet. This back-lit the glass.  Is your suggestion to reduce the exposure on the background so it is more apparent?


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

I have black panels to subtract light, but I don't know where I should put the flags.  Where should they be palced?View attachment 75009


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## Derrel (May 26, 2014)

No wonder you are having so much difficulty. This set is so small, and the distances are so short that due to the inverse square law, even very minor distance shifts cause huge differences in the light levels. As far as the flags Braineack mentioned, I think you might want two smaller ones, inside the big ones, just outside of the lens's field of view, at say "10" and "1" o'clock, and fairly close to the glass.

A very DARK piece of card placed very close to the edge of the glass could help to darken the edge of the glass, through what's commonly called _subtractive fill; _I think that might be what Braineack was thinking when he mentioned flags to help the glass be separated from the background. No matter what he was talking about though, the issue that concerns me is that it seems that the background is where ALL of the light is coming from...I do not see a source of front lighting, so the effect is of intense, blinding back-lighting...I just do not think that's the best way to light this product. I think you need some source of light coming in from the front-side of the glass.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

The set is in my garage.  If I back my Explorer out I can both widen and lengthen the set.  I'll try this today. 

The flags you suggested will darken the edges of the glass, is that right?

I tried a front light and had several vertical reflections on the glass.  Here is the web page that gave me the concept for the set I used:

How To: Light Glass Using Subtractive Lighting | Popular Photography

I wanted the background bright so the joint where the vertical piece and horizontal piece meet is not predominant.  I"ll try a black background as you suggested.

Thank you for your help.

Rob


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

The problem here, as has been pointed out, is that you are trying to shoot a white powder against a white background.  While shooting white on white is done all the time, in this case it's going to reduce the visual weight of the powder, making it a much less dominant element in the scene.  

 If shooting this on white is a must however, I would recommend changing up the tactic a bit.   First, frame the scene.  Use a longer focal length, like a 100mm or so.   Use a low camera angle to help give a dramatic presence to the glass, rather than looking down on it, which diminishes it.  If you are using a flat surface and separate wall for a background rather than a sweep, this will also bring the horizon line down below the bottom of the glass, rather than through the middle of it.    Once you have the scene framed, mask off any area of the white background that isn't in the frame.    Aim a light on the background and meter it about 1.5 stops above your exposure settings.   Now you should be ready to turn off the ambient light and take a test shot.  If everything looks good mark the location of the glass and start your pour shots.  You may need to place a reflector to light the powder as it pours.   After each pour, empty the cup and do it again until you get the shot you are happy with.  Now you should have a good shot of the pour and a good clean shot of the glass to work with.


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## Braineack (May 26, 2014)

Derrel said:


> A very DARK piece of card placed very close to the edge of the glass could help to darken the edge of the glass, through what's commonly called _subtractive fill; _I think that might be what Braineack was thinking when he mentioned flags to help the glass be separated from the background. No matter what he was talking about though, the issue that concerns me is that it seems that the background is where ALL of the light is coming from...I do not see a source of front lighting, so the effect is of intense, blinding back-lighting...I just do not think that's the best way to light this product. I think you need some source of light coming in from the front-side of the glass.



yeah sorry, I was talking more like this:







but the above images explain why it all seems backlit.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> The problem here, as has been pointed out, is that you are trying to shoot a white powder against a white background.  While shooting white on white is done all the time, in this case it's going to reduce the visual weight of the powder, making it a much less dominant element in the scene.
> 
> If shooting this on white is a must however, I would recommend changing up the tactic a bit.   First, frame the scene.  Use a longer focal length, like a 100mm or so.   Use a low camera angle to help give a dramatic presence to the glass, rather than looking down on it, which diminishes it.  If you are using a flat surface and separate wall for a background rather than a sweep, this will also bring the horizon line down below the bottom of the glass, rather than through the middle of it.    Once you have the scene framed, mask off any area of the white background that isn't in the frame.    Aim a light on the background and meter it about 1.5 stops above your exposure settings.   Now you should be ready to turn off the ambient light and take a test shot.  If everything looks good mark the location of the glass and start your pour shots.  You may need to place a reflector to light the powder as it pours.   After each pour, empty the cup and do it again until you get the shot you are happy with.  Now you should have a good shot of the pour and a good clean shot of the glass to work with.



I am in the process of changing the set to allow for a longer focal length.  (If nothing else, my garage is more organized). I am using a horizontal and vertical piece.  What is the reason for masking off the white area that is not in the frame?

I have a bit more organzing in my garage so the set can be wider then I'm ready to shoot. 

Thank you very much,

Rob


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Oh this is magnificent.  This seems to be all back-lit, is that correct?

I need to build some sort of stand to hold my black foam-boards in place.


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

rob.trek said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> > ...........
> ...


It does the same thing as the black cards, while leaving a more open set  



Wine Glass by tltichy, on Flickr​


 The point of the black cards is really to stop wrap around light from outside of the frame from illuminating the edges of the glass, if there is no light from outside of the frame, but black instead, you eliminate that issue.   You can then use the black cards to fine tune even more, this ability will be quite helpful if you are going to use a reflector to light the powder.  You can use a white card up high with a black card below it.


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

rob.trek said:


> Oh this is magnificent.  This seems to be all back-lit, is that correct?
> 
> I need to build some sort of stand to hold my black foam-boards in place.


If you have a table saw you can take small pieces of wood and cut grooves in them.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Oh how I would love to have a shop with tools for projects.  I'll go to Home Depot today to see what they have that will work


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

Cheap A clamps, at an angle on the card will hold it just fine too.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> The problem here, as has been pointed out, is that you are trying to shoot a white powder against a white background.  While shooting white on white is done all the time, in this case it's going to reduce the visual weight of the powder, making it a much less dominant element in the scene.
> 
> If shooting this on white is a must however, I would recommend changing up the tactic a bit.   First, frame the scene.  Use a longer focal length, like a 100mm or so.   Use a low camera angle to help give a dramatic presence to the glass, rather than looking down on it, which diminishes it.  If you are using a flat surface and separate wall for a background rather than a sweep, this will also bring the horizon line down below the bottom of the glass, rather than through the middle of it.    Once you have the scene framed, mask off any area of the white background that isn't in the frame.    Aim a light on the background and meter it about 1.5 stops above your exposure settings.   Now you should be ready to turn off the ambient light and take a test shot.  If everything looks good mark the location of the glass and start your pour shots.  You may need to place a reflector to light the powder as it pours.   After each pour, empty the cup and do it again until you get the shot you are happy with.  Now you should have a good shot of the pour and a good clean shot of the glass to work with.



The lens I chose is the Tamron 180 macro; this enabled me to get close.   lowered the camera angle as you suggested I also set the glass on black acrylic to add just a bit of reflection.  

Braineack commented on the white background and I see his point.  I tried a black panel for the background I could not figure out how to get the glass lit without reflections.  I am sure this would be a no-brainer for most, but this my first attempt to light a glass.  

I also added some front light in the form of a strobe pointed up and behind me.  The garage walls and ceiling are white so this added a front light without reflection.  I did not have any product to pour so here is a photo of 
 the glass and liquid.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> rob.trek said:
> 
> 
> > Scatterbrained said:
> ...



Scatterbrained:  I put black cards on the white panel just outside the frame, as you suggested. This seems to have made significant difference: the sides of the glass are more defined.  I also increased the light on the back panel and added a white panel across the top to bounce the light down from my on camera strobe which is facing up toward the back wall.


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

Do you have a large softbox?   If so then shooting a single glass on black should be really easy.   Make a black card that fills the frame and put it behind the glass, then put the softbox behind the card.  Where the softbox sticks out on either side will light the edges of the glass.  This will give you the white silhouette, just as the reverse gives a black silhouette.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> Do you have a large softbox?   If so then shooting a single glass on black should be really easy.   Make a black card that fills the frame and put it behind the glass, then put the softbox behind the card.  Where the softbox sticks out on either side will light the edges of the glass.  This will give you the white silhouette, just as the reverse gives a black silhouette.



I have a large softbox.  I am curious to try what you suggested.  What are your thoughts on the last image I posted?  I am new at this, but to my eye, it looks good.  I will try the pour later this week.

Rob


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## Scatterbrained (May 26, 2014)

It's definitely getting better.   Rather than use black acrylic, if you have some clear acrylic, or glass, you can put them over your white posterboard for a seamless white with reflection; rather than the grey that you get from black acrylic.


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## rob.trek (May 26, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> It's definitely getting better.   Rather than use black acrylic, if you have some clear acrylic, or glass, you can put them over your white posterboard for a seamless white with reflection; rather than the grey that you get from black acrylic.




Here is the glass with clear acrylic over white foam-board.


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## rob.trek (Jun 14, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> It's definitely getting better.   Rather than use black acrylic, if you have some clear acrylic, or glass, you can put them over your white posterboard for a seamless white with reflection; rather than the grey that you get from black acrylic.



Scatterbraned:  Thank you very much for your help.  The blocks on the side made a big difference.  I changed to clear acrylic as you suggested.  It has been a few weeks since I have been able to work on this.  My set is improved.  I used angle brackets bolted to the black boards; now they are stable and can be shifted with ease.  I used a black panel on top in the hope that it would enable more of the rim to show; can't tell if it made much difference.  I also added a diffused strobe on camera to add just a bit of front light; it is directed to opposite wall.  In my previous shots I attempted to wash out the line between the acrylic and panel; this time I left the line.  I am not sure which is preferred by the experts.  If I add more light, the rear rim is not visible, so I tend to like the line. 

I look forward to your suggestions before I pour the product.   Thank you.  This thread has been a great help.

Here is what  have so far.


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## D-B-J (Jun 14, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> Do you have a large softbox?   If so then shooting a single glass on black should be really easy.   Make a black card that fills the frame and put it behind the glass, then put the softbox behind the card.  Where the softbox sticks out on either side will light the edges of the glass.  This will give you the white silhouette, just as the reverse gives a black silhouette.





Porto by f_one_eight, on Flickr

I made this shot with a similar setup.  

Jake


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## rob.trek (Jun 14, 2014)

Here are some shots of my set:


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## rob.trek (Jun 14, 2014)

D-B-J said:


> Scatterbrained said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have a large softbox?   If so then shooting a single glass on black should be really easy.   Make a black card that fills the frame and put it behind the glass, then put the softbox behind the card.  Where the softbox sticks out on either side will light the edges of the glass.  This will give you the white silhouette, just as the reverse gives a black silhouette.
> ...



I have a large softbox and I will attempt to do as you suggested.  I would like to wait for comments on the white shot before I dismantle the set to added the softbox.  I know I will like the black, but I need to complete this shot first and then try something difference.  Thank you for this idea.


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## Scatterbrained (Jun 16, 2014)

rob.trek said:


> Here are some shots of my set:
> 
> View attachment 76910View attachment 76911


I'm curious, how are you going to pour with a box over the glass?    When I was talking about flagging the background around the area that is in the frame, I meant all of it. Or at least the top and sides .  Then you won't need to make a fort around the glass (even though we all know how much fun it is to make a fort).     It's also helpful to prevent light from hitting the wall outside of the flagged area. If you have some grids or barndoors that'd come in handy, or even some cinefoil for a makeshift snoot.   You should only need one light on the background.


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## rob.trek (Jun 16, 2014)

The top piece seems to be not necessary; unless it is close to the glass, it seems to not have any affect. If it is lower, then I notice the top of the glass is more defined.  Thus I will remove it when I do the pour.  

I don't have elaborate props with which to support the flags.  Although I could tape a foam-board to the wall; I'll try that today.  I have grids for the lights and I'll test them.  Where should the light be directed?

The problem I keep having is the back rim of the glass blends into the background and I still get reflections
 on the sides. 

All of these leads me to try a shot that was suggested in this forum; the silhouette.  It will look more dramatic and the white powder will show better, or will it?


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## rob.trek (Jun 17, 2014)

At some point a project reaches a conclusion even though the final  product is not perfect.  Yesterday I did the pour; one more today in a  different color and I change the set to photograph the glass and pour as  a silhouette.  As has been discussed, the white powder does not show.   The person I am doing this for likes the photograph. He has not yet seen the silhouette.  


View attachment 77101


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## rob.trek (Jun 17, 2014)

Scatterbrained said:


> Do you have a large softbox?   If so then shooting a single glass on black should be really easy.   Make a black card that fills the frame and put it behind the glass, then put the softbox behind the card.  Where the softbox sticks out on either side will light the edges of the glass.  This will give you the white silhouette, just as the reverse gives a black silhouette.



How much larger than the frame is the black card?


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## Braineack (Jun 17, 2014)

how close are your black cards in the above?  I'd bring them in much closer and just post them out of the shot considering the pure white bg. I think ultimately you should be shooting into an area that's predominately black, with a long seamless white sheet to place the glass on--you're really losing the top section of the glass.


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## rob.trek (Jun 17, 2014)

Braineack said:


> how close are your black cards in the above?  I'd bring them in much closer and just post them out of the shot considering the pure white bg. I think ultimately you should be shooting into an area that's predominately black, with a long seamless white sheet to place the glass on--you're really losing the top section of the glass.



The black cards are at the frame edge.  I will move them in.  I wonder, would a black panel overhead, and out of the frame allow the top of the glass to be more visible?  

I overexposed the background so the edge between the back and base would not be seen.  Here is a shot with less light on the background.  Should  I use this set-up and exposure in the final shot?


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## rob.trek (Jun 17, 2014)

Braineack said:


> how close are your black cards in the above?  I'd bring them in much closer and just post them out of the shot considering the pure white bg. I think ultimately you should be shooting into an area that's predominately black, with a long seamless white sheet to place the glass on--you're really losing the top section of the glass.



I used a grad in Lightroom and reduced the exposure on the upper portion; This seem better to me and if it is, then I won't need to re-shoot.  What are your thoughts?

View attachment 77140


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## rob.trek (Jul 8, 2014)

This is how the photos turned out.  The person I shot them for is satisfied.  I learned some important aspects of lighting.  "Thank you!" to those who offered their expertise on this project through feedback in this thread.  I appreciate the help.


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## D-B-J (Jul 9, 2014)

The turned out really well. Nice job!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dennybeall (Jul 10, 2014)

You could tell the story with one picture if the middle photo had the package above it with the powder pouring into the glass and a better color background so the powder could be seen.
Agree with others that the last picture looks not appealing.


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