# Program Mode VS Manual, Aperture, Shutter, or ISO Priority Modes



## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

Why shouldn't I use Program Mode? In all modes (except manual)  my K3II will automatically adjust the other settings. I've bypassed Program Mode previously and either went to manual or one of the other priority modes, but after experimenting with it yesterday, I'm not so sure it wouldn't have an advantage. In P mode I can either shoot full automatic, or change shutter, aperture, and ISO on the fly with a turn of the dial. Not to mention the ability to go back to full auto with a touch of a button. The only real difference I see is that if I turn the camera off it reverts back to full auto. What am I missing?


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## Bebulamar (Jun 26, 2016)

Use the program mode! If you miss something it really doesn't matter. Who cares as long as you get the pictures you want.
I use the M mode most of the time but if P works for you don't think you will miss something.


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## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

Bebulamar said:


> Use the program mode! If you miss something it really doesn't matter. Who cares as long as you get the pictures you want.
> I use the M mode most of the time but if P works for you don't think you will miss something.



I've always used what I felt was most appropriate for the shot be it manual or priority. What I'm seeing on the K3 II is that instead of moving and locking the exposure mode dial to one or the other. By using the P mode, I have a choice (hyper mode) of changing it from automatic to a priority, to a manual setting with a quick turn of a thumb wheel, and then being able to revert back with the touch of a button.


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## Ysarex (Jun 26, 2016)

Use whatever mode you want. I use P all the time because it gives me full control of the camera and lets me choose the exposure rather than letting the camera do it.

The bottom line is only one simple thing: Is it your photo? Are you making the decisions about exposure?

Joe


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## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ysarex said:


> The bottom line is only one simple thing: Is it your photo? Are you making the decisions about exposure?



I guess this is why I've always avoided it, thinking that somehow the camera was secretly adding it's own settings or somehow limiting my control.


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## tirediron (Jun 26, 2016)

If I don't have a specific goal in mind, or I don't know what I'll be facing, I'll normally leave my camera in 'P' - that way I know that I'm reasonably assured of getting a shot no matter what.  Like the others have said; go with what works!


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## Ysarex (Jun 26, 2016)

smoke665 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > The bottom line is only one simple thing: Is it your photo? Are you making the decisions about exposure?
> ...



You have just as much control over exposure settings (within reason) in P mode as in any other. There's nothing wrong with taking advantage of convenience features as long as you're controlling the tool. And in many cases they're more than just convenience features. The automated systems in a modern camera are faster than we are -- that's a good thing.

But your caution isn't inappropriate. For example how is your camera arriving at it's exposure decision? How does the light meter work. Is it a measuring tool under your control or is it programed to try and second guess you?

Joe


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## fmw (Jun 26, 2016)

There are only two reasons to use manual mode.  One would be with non automatic flash such as studio strobes. The other would be to handle situations that are beyond the capabilities of one of the automated modes.  I like program mode because the viewfinder shows me the aperture and shutter speed.  I can turn the wheel to get the same exposure with different options.  As we all know, aperture affects depth of field and shutter speed affects blur or lack of blur.  These are the important aspects of choosing how to expose the image.  The P modes makes this easy while maintaining the same exposure value.  Obviously you can arrive at the same place with A or S modes or even manual.  Use what works for you.


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## Gary A. (Jun 26, 2016)

Ysarex said:


> Use whatever mode you want. I use P all the time because it gives me full control of the camera and lets me choose the exposure rather than letting the camera do it.
> 
> The bottom line is only one simple thing: Is it your photo? Are you making the decisions about exposure?
> 
> Joe


I echo Joe, but insert 'M' as a replacement for 'P'. 

Photography is all about light. (Hence the 'photo' in photography. The root word for photography stems from the Greek word for light, Phos).  We all see light and we all see light differently. In order to transform what we see into what we capture requires technology, the camera. 

The root of our cameras is the ability to adjust the camera not only to capture a scene within the limitations of the camera's capture medium ... but also to capture an image that the photographer sees in their mind's eye. The ability to attain both of those points, rests squarely on the shoulders of being able to measure light. To ascertain and quantify light then use that assessment as a solution in order to adjust the camera settings capture a scene within the limitations of the capture medium (a proper exposure) and/or to capture a scene which also reflects the an image previsualized in the mind (an image crafted by the photographer which includes the photogs style/signature). Light measurement generally is performed by the light meter (or the eye of an experienced and skilled photog). 

In order to understand the heart of photography ... in order to understand how and what the meter measures ... in order to consistently capture the exceptional/crafted/signature image day-in and day-out, I believe, starts with Manual.

PS- These are all general observations. There are, of course, exceptions to everything. In fact with digital photography, style/signature/exceptional can be attained in post ... but then, and at some point, one crosses the line and becomes a digital artist and not a photographer. But those are labels and I am digressing.


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## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

Just answered my own question. In  "P" mode I can adjust the ISO (sensitivity) and the EV compensation then the shutter (TV) the aperture (AV) but not both. In order to adjust all I have to be in manual. Also in "P" mode, the histogram will show in the live view as will the exposure warning highlights but the light meter does not. Light meter only shows in manual mode.



Ysarex said:


> But your caution isn't inappropriate. For example how is your camera arriving at it's exposure decision? How does the light meter work. Is it a measuring tool under your control or is it programed to try and second guess you?



Penatax's 3x5 107 page manual leaves a lot to be desired as to information. As near as I can tell, the camera uses one of several adjustable settings under the program line in the menu. However I can't determine if those settings are still in effect when you over ride camera settings.


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## Ysarex (Jun 26, 2016)

smoke665 said:


> Just answered my own question. In  "P" mode I can adjust the ISO (sensitivity) and the EV compensation then the shutter (TV) the aperture (AV) but not both.



In Program mode you should have a shift function that will allow you to change the shutter speed or f/stop -- both. In P mode the camera is locking exposure to the meter reading, but you have the ability to change that with the camera's EC (exposure comp) function. As a result you should be able to set the same exposure in P mode as you would in M mode selecting both shutter speed and f/stop (within the range of the camera's EC function.

Whether you can get to the same place faster with one or the other is probably a function of practice more than anything else, but I'd think P is probably a little quicker depending on the design of the camera -- no big deal. Point is both provide equivalent control.



smoke665 said:


> In order to adjust all I have to be in manual. Also in "P" mode, the histogram will show in the live view as will the exposure warning highlights but the light meter does not. Light meter only shows in manual mode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unfortunate trend these days; my camera's manuals are likewise sparse. What I was getting at with the light meter comment was the various camera metering modes. All exposure modes including M are linked to the metering system. Is the meter a simple measuring device or is it more? Most modern cameras have a metering mode similar to Nikon's matrix or Canon's evaluative modes. In those modes the meter is more than a simple measuring device. It tries to second guess you and I see that as a loss of control.

Joe


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## Gary A. (Jun 26, 2016)

I don't have a problem with you or anybody using program mode or any mode for that matter, as long as you are consistently capturing the exceptional image ... The image you previsualize ... The image you seek.

Yes, for many genres of photography, speed is not only important, but critical. To be fair, I've never used 'P' mode, so I cannot speak from experience. But, to my mind, going 'P' is a step up in complexity from 'M' in attaining the exposure you need/desire. Practice and experience goes a long way to increase speed. 

But, the big but, speed alone doesn't make up for a wrong/bad exposure. (But Photoshop will ... Back to digression.)  I think you need to shoot a bunch of weird/tricky/bad lighting stuff in Manual and in Program and see what works best for you. 

How do you shoot ... Typically I shoot M with Spot Metering. I meter off a subject with a known value, grass, skin, et al, then make my compensating adjustments, focus, reframe and release the shutter. 

I need to play with the EC and P ... Just to see what it does.


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## Ysarex (Jun 26, 2016)

Gary A. said:


> I don't have a problem with you or anybody using program mode or any mode for that matter, as long as you are consistently capturing the exceptional image ... The image you previsualize ... The image you seek.
> 
> Yes, for many genres of photography, speed is not only important, but critical. To be fair, I've never used 'P' mode, so I cannot speak from experience. But, to my mind, going 'P' is a step up in complexity from 'M' in attaining the exposure you need/desire. Practice and experience goes a long way to increase speed.



For at least 3 decades now the camera engineers have been working on this one. You and I both got started doing this prior to that time. My first serious camera came with an option to have a meter in the prism or not. We learned what worked for us then.

My job however required me to teach the younger generations -- I've always had to deal with the question, "What does this knob do?"

The first assumption: Whether M, P, A, or S you're going to use the meter in the camera.

In M you directly select a shutter speed and f/stop (both require physically pushing or turning something) and at the same time you're paying attention to a meter read out. You've assessed the lighting condition and are deciding that you want the exposure plus or minus or zeroed on the meter. Let's say you select 1/250 sec. shutter and then adjust the f/stop till you get +.67 on the meter readout. For the sake of illustration that's f/6.3. Let's assume your camera is a 5DmkIII. You have to turn one wheel to set the shutter and a different wheel to set the f/stop. Exposure is 1/250 sec. f/6.3.

In P mode: The shutter and f/stop are now automatically set by the camera. You make the same lighting assessment only this time you turn the EC wheel to +.67. Looking through the viewfinder lets assume you see 1/60 sec f/13. You turn the program shift wheel to change the shutter speed to 1/250 sec. and the f/stop of course changes right along and comes to f/6.3. Exposure is 1/250 sec f/6.3.

On the 5DmkIII the wheel you turn to set the shutter in M is the program shift wheel in P, and the wheel you turn to set the f/stop in M is the EC wheel in P. So physically you're doing the exact same thing in both cases and arriving at the exact same exposure result. It gets hard at that point to argue that doing the exact same thing to get the exact same result is better done one way or the other. It's only different in your head.



Gary A. said:


> But, the big but, speed alone doesn't make up for a wrong/bad exposure. (But Photoshop will ... Back to digression.)  I think you need to shoot a bunch of weird/tricky/bad lighting stuff in Manual and in Program and see what works best for you.



Exposure is the photographer's job. P, S, A, or M along with the camera's EC adjustment all make it possible for the photographer to get to the same place (first assumption applies). Using P mode the photographer can hand exposure control over to the camera but there is no requirement that makes that so.

Joe



Gary A. said:


> How do you shoot ... Typically I shoot M with Spot Metering. I meter off a subject with a known value, grass, skin, et al, then make my compensating adjustments, focus, reframe and release the shutter.
> 
> I need to play with the EC and P ... Just to see what it does.


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## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

Ysarex said:


> In Program mode you should have a shift function that will allow you to change the shutter speed or f/stop



There could well be, but I haven't found it yet. This model has added sub levels to the sub levels of the menu. As mentioned earlier the lack of sufficient documentation has made it a hunt and find mission.



Gary A. said:


> I echo Joe, but insert 'M' as a replacement for 'P'.



For me the most important point is the ability to get the image "I" want as quickly and easily as possible. To limit yourself is like saying we should all still be using DOS 6.0 instead of Windows on our computers.



Ysarex said:


> All exposure modes including M are linked to the metering system



We've had some previous conversations along the same line. In my earlier cameras the light meter was a reflective light meter and that was it, now like you I suspect there is some influence by the camera.


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## Ysarex (Jun 26, 2016)

smoke665 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > In Program mode you should have a shift function that will allow you to change the shutter speed or f/stop
> ...



All in-board camera meters are reflected light meters. There was a day, long ago, when I carried a separate hand incident meter because of the inherent fudge factor that comes from using a reflected meter (the reflectance rate of the subject biases the meter reading). Convenience ranks higher now as I get older and the ability to bracket at no cost with a digital camera pretty much sealed the fate of my last hand light meter.

The new twist that's shown up at the end of the film era and into the digital era is "matrix" metering. As only a reflected light meter the camera internal meter is a basic measuring tool that we can learn to manipulate and interpret. However with the arrival of processing chips in our cameras the "matrix" type metering systems execute programs to fine tune the meter's exposure calculation (discard what it thinks is anomalous data). This then becomes a case of the computer in the camera second guessing you. Note that Gary said he uses the spot meter function in his camera -- he makes the call. Likewise when I get a new camera one of the first things I do is find the "matrix" metering mode, which is usually the default, and I turn that bleep bleeper off -- I make the call.

Joe


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## vintagesnaps (Jun 26, 2016)

I almost always shoot M. I have my own 'mode' lol - which is to reset a camera at f8 and 1/125 when I'm done. So next time I grab the camera, that's where it's set (well, most of the time, I _am_ human lol). Works for me.

I find shooting manual is way easier that whatever 'modes' a camera manufacturer or whoever came up with that they think is going to work. What do they know? they're not standing here with me to determine camera settings for any given conditions. I'm fast, just years of practice I guess, I can adjust from my standard settings quick enough.

I even focus manually shooting hockey. That's what I learned, that's what I've done for years and years, so that's what I know how to do.

Most of the time. I use 'auto' settings when shooting a Polaroid. (Although now that I think about it, I manually focus the SX-70...).


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## smoke665 (Jun 26, 2016)

fmw said:


> There are only two reasons to use manual mode. One would be with non automatic flash such as studio strobes.



Actually only one reason. They did away with the on board flash and the internal wireless flash capability on the K3II but the flash "functions" work in P mode, all you need to do is connect via sync cord or attach a wireless transmitter to the hot shoe.



Ysarex said:


> The new twist that's shown up at the end of the film era and into the digital era is "matrix" metering.



Break that down further into "multi segment" and "center weighted". So far I've never found an instance in which I've gotten a satisfactory result from "multi segment", but I have found some uses for the "center weighted". Such as reading off a scene with really uneven bright spots. And eventually I'll get into exploring the "pixel shift" mode, that should be fun.



vintagesnaps said:


> I have my own 'mode'



Nothing wrong with that. Though I haven't done so yet, I have the capability of programming up to 3 user modes. Some of my problem is coming from the differences between the previous model camera and the current model. Maybe I've always been a little anal about some things, but I'm never content unless I know how and why something works, and how can I use it to improve on a task or make my  easier.


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## Gary A. (Jun 26, 2016)

@ Joe- I don't check the meter constantly. After I find a baseline value ... A la Center-the-Needle ... I sorta automatically know where I want to be exposure-wise ... And I'l just count clicks/F stops, either shutter or aperture or both until I get to where I want to be. When the light changes, I compensate counting clicks/partial clicks along the way. Works for me, my eye stays focused on the subject and it is quite fast and relatively done in the background automaticity.  

Per you description, it seems like six of one or a half dozen of another ... But I'm willing to try it.

PS- Generally, speed is most important in scenarios where both the subject and the lighting are fluid and are constantly changing. That is what I tend to shoot.


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## AlanKlein (Jun 26, 2016)

I use P mode almost all the time.  If I think the exposure is too light based on the display and/or histogram, I aim the camera to a lighter spot to darken the image, half press the shutter to lock the exposure and re-frame the image, then finish clicking the shutter.  If it's too dark, then I aim the camera to a darker spot to brighten the image and then follow the same procedure.  Seems to work.  Since I'm shooting a MFT, there's normally not much you can do with DOF even with small apertures.  If there are some unusual circumstance then I might go to shutter priority for high speed or to blur. 

When I shoot my MF RB67 film camera, I use all manual with a hand held meter because manual is all it has.


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## Rick50 (Jun 26, 2016)

Interesting read. More than one way to skin a cat....


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## unpopular (Jun 27, 2016)

If you know how to shoot manual mode then there is no reason not to shoot in any AE mode, including program. The problem is that most people have no idea what AE is actually doing; all they know is that when they shoot manual it tends to be worse. 

But these photographers also don't understand exposure compensation either, and as a result are slaves to the lighting conditions.

I've shot manual mode until I got my XE-1, and for some reason that camera (with manual lenses) just seems to work better in Aperture priority. Of course with live view I don't even really meter anymore either.


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## fmw (Jun 27, 2016)

fmw said:


> There are only two reasons to use manual mode. One would be with non automatic flash such as studio strobes.



But none of them will work with studio strobes.  They aren't automatic.  You need to use manual exposure.


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## astroNikon (Jun 27, 2016)

I only shoot in Manual for control of Aperture and Shutter.
If studio type shots I'm also in Manual ISO
If outside I'm probably in AUTO ISO with a max value.

This allows me to fully control the Shutter and Aperture that I want to capture the image with.  If there is something not right, then I'll compensate with something (Shutter, Aperture, EC, ISO).


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## Ysarex (Jun 27, 2016)

Gary A. said:


> @ Joe- I don't check the meter constantly. After I find a baseline value ... A la Center-the-Needle ... I sorta automatically know where I want to be exposure-wise ... And I'l just count clicks/F stops, either shutter or aperture or both until I get to where I want to be. When the light changes, I compensate counting clicks/partial clicks along the way. Works for me, my eye stays focused on the subject and it is quite fast and relatively done in the background automaticity.
> 
> Per you description, it seems like six of one or a half dozen of another ... But I'm willing to try it.
> 
> PS- Generally, speed is most important in scenarios where both the subject and the lighting are fluid and are constantly changing. That is what I tend to shoot.



You're describing a journalist's methodology founded in your past practice. That's perfectly fine. But some things to consider: Journalism is one sub-discipline in photo; there are many others. Now think about the methodology you've just described handed to the new owner of an entry-level DSLR. The click counting that you're doing suggests an aperture ring on a lens. What's that? With rare exception they don't make those anymore. The wheel that changes shutter speeds on say a Nikon 5100 isn't necessarily clicking one click per 1 stop (or 1/2 stop) shutter speed or f/stop. In most cases you're clicking through 1/3 stops -- not the same counting practice as you grew up with. With that same entry-level DSLR the wheel that manually changes the shutter speed may also manually change the f/stop and you have to depress and hold a button to switch functions.

When you pragmatically try and apply a methodology here the design of the camera is going to impinge on how you decide to work.  Depending on the UI design, controlling exposure manually can be quite ungainly. Many photographers now take advantage of a digital camera's quick ability to change ISO and how is that specifically accomplished on X, Y or Z camera? I can't do anything that looks like click counting to change ISO on my camera (it's a PITA).

So the bottom line remains: exposure is the photographer's job and as long as the photographer is in control PASM is just no big deal. They can all get you to the same place most of the time. There are obvious exceptions but they are exceptions. For example I like to do multi-frame panoramas that I stitch together myself and manual exposure is a requirement.

When I use my camera in P mode the choice has as much to do with the design of the camera as anything else. The P shift wheel is directly under my right hand thumb when holding the camera. Frequently setting an exposure requires no more than a tweak of that wheel either left or right and I can press the shutter release.

Joe


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## Bebulamar (Jun 27, 2016)

smoke665 said:


> Bebulamar said:
> 
> 
> > Use the program mode! If you miss something it really doesn't matter. Who cares as long as you get the pictures you want.
> ...



I will have to read the manual for the K3 II as I don't have Pentax DSLR.


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