# Is a Career Change Possible?



## waday (Jan 4, 2016)

Has anyone contemplated or completed a career change?

Background
I'm fairly well educated in my current path, with a bachelors and masters, as well as getting to the big milestone of being professionally licensed. With all of that behind me, I'm doing pretty well in my current career and have worked up a decent-enough resume for my age.

I've worked government for a few years, then moved to consulting for about the same length of time. I've found that consulting is much more mentally stimulating (which I like), but the work isn't ideal for my personal interests. To make a long story short, I'm really no longer interested in the work I'm doing. I can't figure out if it's the jobs that I've had or if it's the profession itself. Ideally, I'd like to get another job to see if it's my current employer or current work. I've explored my current options, but I'm finding this career does not really align with my career goals or personal interests. 

I thought it did align with my interests when I was getting my degrees. I wish I would have been able to figure all this out when I was in high school debating my future life, but that's water under the bridge.

Additional info that may be helpful
For what it's worth, I'm currently an engineer. Would like to possibly move to physics/astrophysics through a PhD program. I'll likely need more math (highest math was differential equations) and physics (two calculus-based classes with labs), but I'm ready and willing to do what it takes for this change. I'd likely need a refresher classes in math and physics.

I realize that such a change would likely result in $100-$200K worth of student loan debt, which is why I'm not taking this lightly. I fear that if I don't make a change now, it'll only get harder in the future.

Questions
I have a few questions, answers and opinions to any of these would be much appreciated!

Is a career change realistically doable?
Is a career change financially possible if the family (wife and dog) currently relies heavily on my salary?
What kind of personal/professional struggles are there with a career change? (Wife currently supports it, assuming it's what I want to do and we can make it work. Dog probably doesn't care as long as she gets fed and walked.)
If you have contemplated a career change, AND YOU DID NOT MAKE THE CHANGE, why did you decide against it?
If you have contemplated a career change, AND YOU MADE THE CHANGE, do you have any advice for someone starting the research into making a change?
Has anyone on this forum made physics or astrophysics their chosen career? If so, if you'd be willing to answer a few questions (through private message), I would be most appreciative!
Instead of changing careers, did anyone increase their hobbies/outside work interests to a level that overcame their issues with their current careers/jobs/employers/etc?


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## Buckster (Jan 4, 2016)

Edwin Hubble started life as an attorney, then switched and became a very successful astronomer who discovered that the universe is expanding, hence the big bang.  You may have heard of the famous space telescope named in his honor.


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## runnah (Jan 4, 2016)

Anything is possible.

But I've come to realize that every job/career is filled with the same types of people and problems. So switching careers won't solve those issues.


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## waday (Jan 4, 2016)

Buckster said:


> Edwin Hubble started life as an attorney, then switched and became a very successful astronomer who discovered that the universe is expanding, hence the big bang.  You may have heard of the famous space telescope named in his honor.


Good point! Thanks for that boost. 



runnah said:


> Anything is possible.
> 
> But I've come to realize that every job/career is filled with the same types of people and problems. So switching careers won't solve those issues.


Oh, I absolutely understand and agree that there will be issues with every job and every field.

Agree, switching careers won't change those problems. Without going into details, there are some other issues I'm dealing with that are somewhat field-specific.

What I'm trying to discern is if those normal-job issues can be somewhat overshadowed when I'm doing something I like as opposed to doing something that I dislike. Also wondering, if it's possible and if people were happy or unhappy with the change after having already invested time and money in another career.


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## astroNikon (Jan 4, 2016)

As mentioned any thing is possible.

Also look at potential future jobs and earnings related to what you make and be comfortable with that change (the wife and dog too) whether positively or negatively.

I had a couple roommates in college who were theoretical physics/astrophysics majors in college.  I had 4 terms of calculus and couldn't understand squat of the math they were doing.  One ended up working at a pizza place and the other a Doctor (with nothing to do with astrophysics).  Another friend  I knew went on to work for NASA.


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## KenC (Jan 4, 2016)

Yep, went to school at night (starting at age 39) while continuing to work as a chemist during the day.  It was difficult but ultimately worth it in all sorts of ways.  Send me a PM if you want to discuss details.

As for your specific plan of doing physics, is there work in the field?  Most physicists I've known are doing something else.  That's fine if it's a first love that you study when you're young and then find another way to make money, but it would be a tough sell for me to make the effort at a later point if there wasn't a way to use it.  Remember that employers always, always look at age, despite any statements to the contrary.

If I were you I'd check on the math.  I was an engineering major as an undergraduate and I remember the physics majors taking about four or five math courses I didn't take, and that's just undergraduate - who knows what else they might take in grad school?


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## waday (Jan 4, 2016)

astroNikon said:


> As mentioned any thing is possible.
> 
> Also look at potential future jobs and earnings related to what you make and be comfortable with that change (the wife and dog too) whether positively or negatively.
> 
> I had a couple roommates in college who were theoretical physics/astrophysics majors in college.  I had 4 terms of calculus and couldn't understand squat of the math they were doing.  One ended up working at a pizza place and the other a Doctor (with nothing to do with astrophysics).  Another friend  I knew went on to work for NASA.



Yeah, I'd definitely need more math as a prerequisite into the program. Then, more math after that, haha. The one friend that worked at a pizza place... did he ever get a job in his field? I'd love to work for NASA in pretty much any capacity, haha.



KenC said:


> Yep, went to school at night (starting at age 39) while continuing to work as a chemist during the day.  It was difficult but ultimately worth it in all sorts of ways.  Send me a PM if you want to discuss details.
> 
> As for your specific plan of doing physics, is there work in the field?  Most physicists I've known are doing something else.  That's fine if it's a first love that you study when you're young and then find another way to make money, but it would be a tough sell for me to make the effort at a later point if there wasn't a way to use it.  Remember that employers always, always look at age, despite any statements to the contrary.
> 
> If I were you I'd check on the math.  I was an engineering major as an undergraduate and I remember the physics majors taking about four or five math courses I didn't take, and that's just undergraduate - who knows what else they might take in grad school?



Thank you for the info! I was never really afraid of math, but I definitely know I'd need to take a few prerequisites just to get INTO a program, and probably have to take one or to more just as a refresher, haha.

I do worry about the stability of the job market in physics, especially with gov't funding in this sector remaining relatively constant with more and more research grants, meaning much more competition. Outside of research, I'm not sure of too many other jobs; I'm guessing medical and manufacturing research? Again, probably pretty darn competitive. I'd definitely be happy as a professor, but again, lots of competition.

@KenC, if you don't mind, I may PM you later tonight (when I have more time to type and think)?


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## Designer (Jan 4, 2016)

I've changed jobs/career several times, but only once by first returning to college.  I did that rather late in life, but even then I was able to repay my loans fairly quickly.

So I'd say it's probably doable, but I doubt if seeking an advanced degree is the correct path.  There may be other options for you.


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## astroNikon (Jan 4, 2016)

waday said:


> The one friend that worked at a pizza place... did he ever get a job in his field?


Nope
Not even after he got a different degree

The one friend that worked for NASA got straight A's in high school, College/Masters / Phd @ California Berkeley.  So, that's your competition in that field.

I have another friend that used to work for Orbital Sciences .. a real rocket scientist.  Now is a math professor at a college.

You really need to research what jobs are available in that field and where they are located.   Pretty much you'll have to relocate where the jobs are.


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## KenC (Jan 4, 2016)

waday said:


> @KenC[/USER], if you don't mind, I may PM you later tonight (when I have more time to type and think)?



No problem


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## Gary A. (Jan 4, 2016)

I changed my career a number of times, I think I get bored easily. For whatever reasons ... I have difficulty working with others ... I suspect coworkers are intimidated. I think I am average and expect other to work/participate at the same average level. Working news was fine as we all worked somewhat autonomously. But when I left news and pursued a corporate career, other managers didn't appreciate my minimal expectations for myself and others. So I started my own company, when it became successful, and/or, I became bored, I'd dump it and start another. I started a new company about two years ago. It is struggling, but I know that it will be successful and within the next 30 days I'll probably be starting another.

What do you expect/desire as a return from a formal education? What do you wish/desire to do in physics?

If your dreams are a PhD ... then follow your dreams for the purity of following your dreams, for the purity of accomplishment for accomplishment's sake.  If you expect to make more money, be more successful with a PhD as opposed to an engineer ... my initial response is ... think again.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 4, 2016)

I agree about finding out what the job market is like for that type work. And how much schooling are you talking about? Is it a related field that most of your current degree coursework would count toward? 

I can't get past that amount of debt...  

But engineering obviously pays more than education (my field) so you'd have to figure out how many years it would take and how much per month you could afford to pay it back. Assuming there are plenty of jobs available - I'd check with any colleges or universities you're considering and talk to someone in their career counseling (or whatever dept. it is) to find out what jobs are in demand.

The change I made after about 10 years in public schools was going into early intervention; I just had to take a few grad classes for that specialization and I took evening classes; paid for them, no loans. Did that for 20+ years, once I got there I never left! lol til an early retirement (due to having a stroke, luckily had my 30 years in).

Don't make the decision now right after the holidays - nobody sounds like they wanted to go back to work today!


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## weepete (Jan 4, 2016)

I contimplated it for a while but ended up not making the switch. A combination of realisation that I probably wasn't best suited to the carrer I was considering and after 10 years of working from the bottom up in the industry I moved into after leaving where I completed my apprenticeship (and not being able to find a job in the same field), things finally fell into place for me and I managed into a position that I could finally consider a carreer as opposed to just a job. Sure, some contracts are not exactly what I'd prefer to be doing but sometimes small steps are needed and some **** needs shoveled along the way. A massive boost for me recently was the company I work for won a big contract that secures our work for the next 6 years, possibly 12 if we do well.

I guess you need to decide whither it's the job that's the issue or whither it's the place you are in or just possibly a stale point in your career (in which case refocusing on a new goal may work). It's not always easy to distinguish between those and can be a really difficult descision to make.

Oh, and if you think about it engineering is really just taking physics and applying it to the real world to create effective solutions.

And yes, I have lots of hobbies. Photography is my creative outlet, Fishing and walking help my desire to be outdoors and get away from it all, I have a big ass smoker in my garden which I fire up when the weather is nice, I rebuild my own fishing rods, am into computer gaming and usualy have some project I can make with my hands on the go and I'm considering getting into jujitsu again after I injured my elbow bouldering last year.


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## limr (Jan 4, 2016)

waday said:


> What kind of personal/professional struggles are there with a career change? (Wife currently supports it, assuming it's what I want to do and we can make it work. Dog probably doesn't care as long as she gets fed and walked.)
> ...
> If you have contemplated a career change, AND YOU DID NOT MAKE THE CHANGE, why did you decide against it?



You may have heard me mention my paralegal studies and brief stints working as a paralegal. In short, a few years back, I reached the "Senior Adjunct" status, which gives almost no perks, but one of them is free tuition, so I did a paralegal certificate part time. I thought I'd try it as a back-up career since adjuncting, many might know, is soul-crushingly underpaid and I didn't know how much longer I could stand it. I've always like law and I know that paralegal work is one of the few areas that is still adding jobs. I wasn't sure if I'd like it or what field I'd go in, but it was free, so what the hell?

In my second to last semester, I took CrimLaw and did an internship at the DA's office and loved it so decided to go ahead and try to get some part-time work. Well, it turned out that it's really hard to break into Criminal Law (on either side, but especially prosecution, which was of course what I was more interested in). And even in civil law, for the most part, before I could get to the jobs that would give me a decent wage and some satisfying work, I would need to be humping it at crappy long-hour, low-paid jobs at insurance or real estate firms for several years.

So professionally, I would have had to start from zero again, especially since my old career field didn't really dovetail nicely into the new career ("Why would an English teacher want to work for Legal Aid???") But also, it would almost certainly mean doing work that didn't mean diddly squat to me, at the very least for several years. I _loved_ the internship at the DA's office and if I had to work in defense, I would have been happy doing work for Legal Aid as well (I don't think I'd enjoy a fancy defense firm, helping to get rich suburban kids out of possession charges  ) BUT, it was hard to break into, as I said, and there was the danger of being pigeon-holed as a real estate/probate/insurance/contracts paralegal. And so _personally_, that would have crushed my soul even faster than living on an adjunct's salary.

I knew this for sure when I got a job working part-time for a lawyer that I called Lumbergh (I knew it the first time he said "Yeah, that would be great.")





He did all the law I didn't want to do, and I can't even tell you how much I hated it. So I quit and decided to give myself a few weeks to really think if I wanted to pursue the paralegal thing, or throw my energy back into making something happen at the college instead. As it turns out, an opportunity came up for a better part-time admin job that has more potential than I've seen in years, so I took that. And so far, I have no plans to give paralegal another go. Perhaps I tried the change too late (I'm 44 and it's not like I'm _old_ but I'm old enough to feel exhausted at the thought of paying my dues in a new profession all over again). Perhaps I didn't want it enough, my heart just wasn't in it (I still enjoy teaching and only enjoy certain areas of law, and not the profitable ones!) And maybe I didn't go far enough (should I have sucked it up, racked up some more debt and gone to law school? Then I could have more easily found work at a DA's office). I don't know. All I know is that it didn't quite work out for me, but that also might be because of the timing of the new opportunities at the college that reduced my need to change careers.

But I do NOT regret trying, so at the very least, I encourage you to take it as far as it makes sense to you.


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## KmH (Jan 4, 2016)

waday,

I met several University of Arizona Astronomy majors back in the 80's through my association with the Flandreau Planetarium and Steward Mirror Lab on the U of A campus.
Astronomy majors that were struggling with the astronomy math opted for their fall back goal of becoming nuclear physicists.

Frankly, I would say the worst scenario is to look back years from now and regret not doing what your heart told you to do.



Buckster said:


> Edwin Hubble started life as an attorney, then switched and became a very successful astronomer who discovered that the universe is expanding, hence the big bang.  You may have heard of the famous space telescope named in his honor.


It looks like Hubble started out with Physics and Astronomy.
He got a bachelor of science degree in 1910 from the University of Chicago.
As one of the first Rhodes Scholars he then studied Law, Spanish and Literature at Oxford. He left Oxford in 1913 and at age 25 decided he wanted to be an astronomer.
Hubble's former professor helped him get back into the U of C/Yerkes Observatory and he got his PhD in Astronomy in 1917.
After a very brief stint in the Army at the end of WWI Hubble spent a year at Cambridge for more studies in Astronomy.

According to author Bill Byrson in _A Short History Of Nearly Everything_, Edwin Hubble was an inveterate liar and told tales of almost constant valor - rescuing drowning swimmers, embarrassing world-champion boxers with knockout punches in exhibition bouts, leading injured soldiers off the WWI battlefields in France, and more.

According to Bryson Hubble also lied about practicing law in Kentucky in 1913  after he returned from Oxford and was actually a high school teacher and basketball coach in New Albany, IL during that time.
Hubble was from Wheaton, IL. His father was an insurance company executive.

Hubble moved to California and the Mt. Wilson Observatory in 1919.
When Hubble died in 1953, no funeral was held for him and his wife never revealed his burial site.

Vesto Slipher, at the Lowell Observatory, provided the first measurements of galaxy red shifts in 1912, more than 10 years before Hubble did galaxy red shift measurements.

None the less, Hubble was the leading astronomer of his day, and with some help from others, like Henrietta Swan Leavitt, Hubble pushed the known boundary of our universe *way* further back.


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## EIngerson (Jan 4, 2016)

Great post. 

As a military member I'm coming up on the inevitable transition. After 25 years of service as a United States Marine, I have a potential 5 years left to serve. (If I decide to stay that long) I joined immediately out of high school and I've known this more than I've known civilian life. To be quite honest, the thought of retiring and getting a civilian job scares the hell out of me. Starting over is not something to be taken lightly.

If you do make a transition I wish you the very best.


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## waday (Jan 5, 2016)

Thank you, all, for the wonderful responses!  

@KenC, I didn't forget. Apologies for not sending something last night--the night got away from me.



Designer said:


> I've changed jobs/career several times, but only once by first returning to college.  I did that rather late in life, but even then I was able to repay my loans fairly quickly.
> 
> So I'd say it's probably doable, but I doubt if seeking an advanced degree is the correct path.  There may be other options for you.


I've debated the advanced degree, but many of the programs I've seen have an MS into a PhD. I've always been interested in this field (as well as doing more research), so the PhD seemed to make sense to me. But, that said, I definitely want to look into potentially another MS instead of a PhD at least to start.



astroNikon said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > The one friend that worked at a pizza place... did he ever get a job in his field?
> ...


That stinks that he didn't get a job! Yeah, competition for those positions must be pretty fierce! The wife and I have discussed relocation, and it would depend on the job. At the moment, I'm more focused on trying to be happy with what I do rather than location/money.



Gary A. said:


> I changed my career a number of times, I think I get bored easily. For whatever reasons ... I have difficulty working with others ... I suspect coworkers are intimidated. I think I am average and expect other to work/participate at the same average level. Working news was fine as we all worked somewhat autonomously. But when I left news and pursued a corporate career, other managers didn't appreciate my minimal expectations for myself and others. So I started my own company, when it became successful, and/or, I became bored, I'd dump it and start another. I started a new company about two years ago. It is struggling, but I know that it will be successful and within the next 30 days I'll probably be starting another.
> 
> What do you expect/desire as a return from a formal education? What do you wish/desire to do in physics?
> 
> If your dreams are a PhD ... then follow your dreams for the purity of following your dreams, for the purity of accomplishment for accomplishment's sake.  If you expect to make more money, be more successful with a PhD as opposed to an engineer ... my initial response is ... think again.


Thanks Gary! I can be the same way--get bored easily. My current job started with me doing a plethora of different and very hard work, which was fantastic. But, it started to flatline and has pigeonholed me in an area that has me stagnant--both professionally and personally.

I have the opposite problem with myself and others--while I think I am average, I work at a very, very high standard, and hold those around me to that same standard. It's very frustrating when that standard isn't met.

I want to learn and do hard work that makes me think. The projects that I like most, and seem to do the best with, are the ones where I have to work at the problem, research, brainstorm, etc. From a formal education, I expect to learn and work hard. Physics was always one class that I loved but found challenging. It's piqued my interest. Within the realm of physics jobs, I'm actually not quite sure at the moment. I know that I've liked astronomy and the stars ever since I was little. I remember visiting the Air and Space Museum, as well as the Goddard Space Center, when I was little. Those had a tremendous impact on me. They are one reason why I went into engineering. If I could combine the engineering background with astrophysics, I'd probably really, really like it. But, I'd have to find that one in a million job. That's definitely something I need to keep researching.



vintagesnaps said:


> I agree about finding out what the job market is like for that type work. And how much schooling are you talking about? Is it a related field that most of your current degree coursework would count toward?
> 
> I can't get past that amount of debt...
> 
> ...


Haha! Agreed, making decisions now probably isn't such a good idea! However, this is something that I have been mulling over for quite some time. I feel that I just need to make a decision--career change or employer change.

It's good to hear about your career change and that it made you happy. And that it was worth it.

Some of my schooling would/should count; however, there would probably be an added semester or two of prerequisite classes. It's insane how much money it would cost, at least at the places that I'd like to go. Whether or not I'd be accepted into those programs is another question, haha. I'll have to start contacting some career counseling services at universities, or contact several professors to get their advice.



weepete said:


> I contimplated it for a while but ended up not making the switch. A combination of realisation that I probably wasn't best suited to the carrer I was considering and after 10 years of working from the bottom up in the industry I moved into after leaving where I completed my apprenticeship (and not being able to find a job in the same field), things finally fell into place for me and I managed into a position that I could finally consider a carreer as opposed to just a job. Sure, some contracts are not exactly what I'd prefer to be doing but sometimes small steps are needed and some **** needs shoveled along the way. A massive boost for me recently was the company I work for won a big contract that secures our work for the next 6 years, possibly 12 if we do well.
> 
> I guess you need to decide whither it's the job that's the issue or whither it's the place you are in or just possibly a stale point in your career (in which case refocusing on a new goal may work). It's not always easy to distinguish between those and can be a really difficult descision to make.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input! I'm worried about the same thing: that I may not be suited to the career (because I'm unfamiliar with the field?) and that it may not be feasible to start from scratch.

One issue I'm having is that I'm asking for work outside of what I'm currently doing and that request does not seem to be happening. I look for jobs, and it's the same type of work. It's hard to tell if it's the employer or the field, because I do have 'issues' with both.

It's very possible that it's a stale point in my career. Before making any drastic changes, I'll need to refocus and see if I can come up with a new goal that could work. Engineering is definitely applying physics to the real world, but that's a somewhat generic statement when you get into the different roles of engineering at a job to job scale. I want to do the calculations and research relating to physics, not using premade software or templates to do the calculations for me. It gets boring real quick.

My wife keeps reminding me to keep at my hobbies. Two hobbies that I want to take up more: reading technical books/documents and stargazing. I feel that I need to keep up with hobbies that make me use my brain, because I feel it's turning to mush, haha.



limr said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of personal/professional struggles are there with a career change? (Wife currently supports it, assuming it's what I want to do and we can make it work. Dog probably doesn't care as long as she gets fed and walked.)
> ...


Crim law is very hard to break into--my wife is an attorney, who works at a non-profit. She has a friend that tried to get into the DA's office (as an attorney), and actually succeeded after several years of applying and hounding them after doing a short internship. She loves it, but it's not for everyone. She preferred that to defense for the same reasons, haha.

It's funny that you mention insurance and real estate firms, because my wife worked briefly for an insurance firm and quit after a few weeks. She couldn't stand her boss, who was a complete jerk. So, she quit. It took about 5 years, but she finally got the job at the non-profit, which she loves. It's hard work but she loves it.

It's good to know that you do not regret trying. I worry that if I don't do something or make a change, I'll severely regret it later. Normally, I'm pretty logical about most decisions I make, such as going into engineering. This time, I'm trying to do what makes me happy.



KmH said:


> waday,
> 
> I met several University of Arizona Astronomy majors back in the 80's through my association with the Flandreau Planetarium and Steward Mirror Lab on the U of A campus.
> Astronomy majors that were struggling with the astronomy math opted for their fall back goal of becoming being nuclear physicists.
> ...


Thank you, Keith. I appreciate the kind words, especially your last sentence. I do worry that I'll look back years from now and regret it. I'm having a struggle between the 'logical' choice of staying in my career, moving up, etc. and doing what my heart wants, which is outside of engineering.

Maybe I should just look at nuclear engineering, haha.



EIngerson said:


> Great post.
> 
> As a military member I'm coming up on the inevitable transition. After 25 years of service as a United States Marine, I have a potential 5 years left to serve. (If I decide to stay that long) I joined immediately out of high school and I've known this more than I've known civilian life. To be quite honest, the thought of retiring and getting a civilian job scares the hell out of me. Starting over is not something to be taken lightly.
> 
> If you do make a transition I wish you the very best.


Thank you for the well wishes! Starting over is frightening at the very least. Good luck with your transition!


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## jcdeboever (Jan 5, 2016)

EIngerson said:


> Great post.
> 
> As a military member I'm coming up on the inevitable transition. After 25 years of service as a United States Marine, I have a potential 5 years left to serve. (If I decide to stay that long) I joined immediately out of high school and I've known this more than I've known civilian life. To be quite honest, the thought of retiring and getting a civilian job scares the hell out of me. Starting over is not something to be taken lightly.
> 
> If you do make a transition I wish you the very best.



The good news is you can be a little more picky since you will be drawing a check already. The bad news is you will figure out real quick how undisciplined most people generally are in comparison to the military. My suggestion would be a corporate job with a successful company that has been around a long time, an example would be a company like Sherwin Williams. Successful, long term corporations are highly structured and very similar to military and they are looking for men like you.


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## astroNikon (Jan 5, 2016)

I would love to have a job gazing the stars - well, that's not astrophysics, just star gazing.
Or planning non-human space travel.
But I've also seen what is involved schooling-wise, though 30 years ago.  So for me it's a hobby with stargazing, which in itself is expensive (and you thought a camera was expensive). Physics just wasn't my cup of tea in college.
==> So You Want To Be An Astrophysicist?  Part 1: being an astro major

But if you have the drive (and connections help) then I'd say go for it.  But also do research on which school you go to and where the graduates actually work at.  I looked at this once and if you went and Aced all your classes at a big school like Cal Berkley, or MIT, Princeton, Stanford, etc then you have a good probability.  Even Univ of Michigan wasn't considered high caliber for it, but never say never.
==> Astrophysics and Astronomy Rankings - PhDs.org Graduate School Guide
==> The Best Astrophysics Institutions for Americans.

And then you'll be scratching your head for a lifetime ...  heck, they can't even decide on whether Pluto is a planet or not.


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## SquarePeg (Jan 5, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> Don't make the decision now right after the holidays - nobody sounds like they wanted to go back to work today!



This!!!  I think everyone hated their job yesterday morning.


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## astroNikon (Jan 5, 2016)

One of my kids therapists told me "never say never about a career change.  If you want to do it then it only takes determination to make it"

So I told her I wanted to be a pro bicycle racer again ...  nope, ain't gonna happen at my age  
 . . . thought I'd throw in a funny but true story


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## Gary A. (Jan 5, 2016)

I think you like solving problems. What type of engineer are you? If applicable, think your next hobby is to use your engineering experience to solve problems with non-profit/NGO type groups. Take your vacations an travel to third world countries to apply your engineering skills to the non-profit/NGO project(s).


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## waday (Jan 5, 2016)

astroNikon said:


> I would love to have a job gazing the stars - well, that's not astrophysics, just star gazing.
> Or planning non-human space travel.
> But I've also seen what is involved schooling-wise, though 30 years ago.  So for me it's a hobby with stargazing, which in itself is expensive (and you thought a camera was expensive). Physics just wasn't my cup of tea in college.
> ==> So You Want To Be An Astrophysicist?  Part 1: being an astro major
> ...


Thanks for the links! That first one is really good and is pretty much exactly what I expected and want, haha.

Pluto is not a planet. 



Gary A. said:


> I think you like solving problems. What type of engineer are you? If applicable, think your next hobby is to use your engineering experience to solve problems with non-profit/NGO type groups. Take your vacations an travel to third world countries to apply your engineering skills to the non-profit/NGO project(s).


I do like solving problems (and finding problems to solve). I'm an environmental engineer, so I deal mostly with hydrology/water/water treatment/wastewater treatment/etc. Unfortunately, most of my work now is involving how to deal with regulations. I like it, but I miss the technical work.

At least at my company, technical problem solving and level of responsibility are inversely proportional. As years of experience increase, it's encouraged to go into project management rather than be a technical expert. In other words, they want us to make more money for the company, and they don't care about our personal/professional needs. As a PM, I'll have business development goals, as well, so the time spent on actual engineering work goes way down. It's one thing I'm struggling with as I'm being forced into the PM route. It's very possible a change in companies would help, but many of those around me act in similar ways.

If I ever get to the point where I have enough PTO to take off (and cash) to go on NGO travels, I would like that very much.


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## astroNikon (Jan 5, 2016)

waday said:


> Pluto is not a planet.



yeah, it's a Plutoid now, or a Dwarf Planet in the Kuiper belt.
It still spent 73 years as a planet.  The longest reign of a planet that had it's planet status revoked in the Solar System.
It's also a Goofy Disney character.  


even my 4th grader corrects me when we list out the planets and I include Pluto .. it's a habit.


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## Gary A. (Jan 5, 2016)

Interestingly, we have some commonalities.  I used to do environmental engineering, ( I was even an Environmental Commissioner for the City of Los Angeles).   Yes, the management of construction, especially for governments which the paperwork is as important as the actual construction, is where the money is made or lost ... and paperwork is the key to getting paid.  I think/know there is a lot of opportunities in your given career path to get back to what you love to do. Smaller companies need people with a design-build attitude. But in your arena, there are few small companies and very few, if any, have the bonding to responsibly bid government projects.  Don't know much about private sector.

As for NGO work, you need to hook up with a few and start working with them. Design starts at home. They will pay your way for you to execute the design. Water and sanitation projects are needed everywhere. Design same to utilize local ecological concerns and elements are important.  One of the most effective environmental/life improvement concern is this guy who started shipping porta-potties to areas of the world where there isn't any plumbing. He has done more to clean-up the local water and lessen disease than anyone else.  If you can better a porta-potty, Mr. Engineer, you will be a jammin' hero.


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## limr (Jan 5, 2016)

waday said:


> I do like solving problems (and finding problems to solve). I'm an environmental engineer, so I deal mostly with hydrology/water/water treatment/wastewater treatment/etc. Unfortunately, most of my work now is involving how to deal with regulations. I like it, but I miss the technical work.
> 
> At least at my company, technical problem solving and level of responsibility are inversely proportional. As years of experience increase, it's encouraged to go into project management rather than be a technical expert. In other words, they want us to make more money for the company, and they don't care about our personal/professional needs. As a PM, I'll have business development goals, as well, so the time spent on actual engineering work goes way down. It's one thing I'm struggling with as I'm being forced into the PM route. It's very possible a change in companies would help, but many of those around me act in similar ways.
> 
> If I ever get to the point where I have enough PTO to take off (and cash) to go on NGO travels, I would like that very much.



Sounds like what my brother is going through. He is a mechanical engineer, specializes in climate control systems (I'm not sure if that's what he wanted to specialize in, or if that's what he ended up getting a job doing.) The last time we had a conversation about work, he was saying the same things - once you prove yourself, you end up being "promoted" and dealing more with project management and just management in general instead of actual engineering work. Of course, even though he _really_ doesn't like it and wishes he could just be an engineer again, he has to stay where he is. Has to keep his wife in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed  And that's all I'll say about that.


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## waday (Jan 6, 2016)

astroNikon said:


> waday said:
> 
> 
> > Pluto is not a planet.
> ...


Oh, Disney. He's absolutely nothing like the Roman god of the Underworld. 



Gary A. said:


> Interestingly, we have some commonalities.  I used to do environmental engineering, ( I was even an Environmental Commissioner for the City of Los Angeles).   Yes, the management of construction, especially for governments which the paperwork is as important as the actual construction, is where the money is made or lost ... and paperwork is the key to getting paid.  I think/know there is a lot of opportunities in your given career path to get back to what you love to do. Smaller companies need people with a design-build attitude. But in your arena, there are few small companies and very few, if any, have the bonding to responsibly bid government projects.  Don't know much about private sector.
> 
> As for NGO work, you need to hook up with a few and start working with them. Design starts at home. They will pay your way for you to execute the design. Water and sanitation projects are needed everywhere. Design same to utilize local ecological concerns and elements are important.  One of the most effective environmental/life improvement concern is this guy who started shipping porta-potties to areas of the world where there isn't any plumbing. He has done more to clean-up the local water and lessen disease than anyone else.  If you can better a porta-potty, Mr. Engineer, you will be a jammin' hero.


Very nice! How did you like being the Environmental Commissioner? I'm working for a very large company--I'm one of probably 80-90,000. While our company many work with the gov't, my department does not. Most of my work is for large power plants and pipelines. When I try to apply to smaller companies, they don't want my experience, because they don't have those clients. So, my experience is useless to them.

I've submitted a volunteer application for my local municipality's environmental commission (they're looking for board members), but I'm not expecting a call back. Instead of looking at my resume, I could tell the guy just thought I was too young when I handed my application in--oh, well. I'll have to contact an NGO. I know of a few people that are either currently doing it or wanting to do the same, so I'll get some contact info.



limr said:


> Sounds like what my brother is going through. He is a mechanical engineer, specializes in climate control systems (I'm not sure if that's what he wanted to specialize in, or if that's what he ended up getting a job doing.) The last time we had a conversation about work, he was saying the same things - once you prove yourself, you end up being "promoted" and dealing more with project management and just management in general instead of actual engineering work. Of course, even though he _really_ doesn't like it and wishes he could just be an engineer again, he has to stay where he is. Has to keep his wife in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed  And that's all I'll say about that.


Yes! Exactly that, we get 'promoted' (quotations meaning a forced promotion) and end up in management with no engineering work. All they want is someone with a PE behind their name to go around trying to get new clients and dealing with money. To be fair, this is somewhat of an issue with my current company. We were one of the largest firms and got acquired by another of the largest firms. The new firm cares more about money and profits than they do about getting work done and repeat business, so being in management really stinks.

Our company has two tracks: technical and project management. You get forced into PM rather than the technical route, because PMs bring in more work. I'd much rather be a technical expert on something than have X number of projects under my belt (even though being a PM means more money). I don't care about money, I care about being happy.

Don't get me started on the salary/lifestyle issue, haha. While I admit I do have a good salary, engineers aren't paid nearly what people think they are. Same with my wife. She's a non-profit attorney. Key term: non-profit. When we were at the dealership buying a car, the asinine salesman was like, "oh, with a salary in the six digits as an attorney..." We were buying one of the cheapest cars on the lot. I make one-and-a-half times what my wife makes, and neither of us are close to six digits. If we were rich, we wouldn't be asking about financing.

This could very easily turn into a ranting session, if it hasn't already, haha.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 6, 2016)

You know I was thinking, you're relatively young-ish, it might be worth looking into any/all possibilities instead of staying with doing something you don't enjoy. I say any/all because I've ended up doing something that wasn't anything I'd planned like shooting sports (hockey) or going into early intervention (babies? who'd've thought!).

But the flip side is the practical aspects of it. You probably don't want to end up with a doctorate and working at the quickie mart. (That literally happened to someone I know, was managing a convenience store til he finally got work again in his field; I know someone else who go laid off and it was years getting something besides working at wally mart.)

Gary may be on to something, maybe doing work that's more fulfilling than getting contracts or clients etc. would be a nice change of pace. I guess there's good and so-so in any job, the advantage of working in public school or a county agency was it being to provide services, not round up more clients (we used to say we'd never be out of work) but the not so fun part was rules and regs and PITA red tape (we'd also talk about our department of redundancy dept.! lol). There's probably something out there for you, it's probably a matter of figuring out what it is.


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## waday (Jan 6, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> You know I was thinking, you're relatively young-ish, it might be worth looking into any/all possibilities instead of staying with doing something you don't enjoy. I say any/all because I've ended up doing something that wasn't anything I'd planned like shooting sports (hockey) or going into early intervention (babies? who'd've thought!).
> 
> But the flip side is the practical aspects of it. You probably don't want to end up with a doctorate and working at the quickie mart. (That literally happened to someone I know, was managing a convenience store til he finally got work again in his field; I know someone else who go laid off and it was years getting something besides working at wally mart.)
> 
> Gary may be on to something, maybe doing work that's more fulfilling than getting contracts or clients etc. would be a nice change of pace.


Woo! I got the approval!  Considering my age, I want to look into something that will make me happier, even if it's not my 'dream job'. I'm tired of always going the practical route at the expense of happiness. Don't get me wrong, I'm not unhappy with where my life has taken me. I'm thankful that I have a decent-paying job, a roof over my head, food on the table, family to love, and a community of friends (in person and online) that are just great people.

That 'flip side' you mention is definitely something that I worry about, especially since I've typically always gone the practical/logical route. My wife worked at Starbucks, Lenscrafters, other retail stores, and as an administrative assistant before finally finding a job in her field, which took a long time. What happened to her and what happened to your friends (i.e., being years before finding a job) is what scares me, because we probably wouldn't be able to make it work financially.

Gary's comments are similar to others I've heard when contemplating career change. Some people make a small change in their life, such as adding 'extracurricular' activities, that have a profound impact on their lives--it made their current work livable. Prior to doing anything drastic, I need to refocus and come up with a new goal.

I keep forgetting that work is only one-third of my day, leaving two-thirds to do what I want (sleep and eat ).


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## 407370 (Jan 6, 2016)

I have no qualifications at all. I managed to move from a heavy physical job to designing computer systems by going to night school. I do not regret it one bit as I have earned enough to keep my family warm and fed for 30 years. The one thing I would never do is mix business with pleasure so I would never plan to make money from any of my artistic endeavors including photography.


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## rexbobcat (Jan 7, 2016)

KmH said:


> waday,
> Astronomy majors that were struggling with the astronomy math opted for their fall back goal of becoming nuclear physicists.



That was their_ fallback _career?

Exactly how difficult is astronomical math that nuclear physics is considered the easier option? lol


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## astroNikon (Jan 8, 2016)

rexbobcat said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > waday,
> ...


I don't know
But in undergrad I had 4 terms calculus and I couldn't understand squat from my astrophysics major undergrad roommates math.  

Granted that was 30 years ago.  
It's probably harder now.


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## Gary A. (Jan 8, 2016)

astroNikon said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...


And I thought Organic Chem was hard ...


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## waday (Jan 8, 2016)

Gary A. said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > rexbobcat said:
> ...


I liked Organic Chemistry... our professor was a really, really good teacher.

Until he started to go through a bitter divorce and turned into an ass.


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## Nata (Jan 9, 2016)

People told me back when I was 23 that it was too late for me to change and get a new career and that I should just climb the ladder and get into retail management in the retail job that I hated and made me hate myself for being there. Problem was, I believed them for several years. (Yes 23! I look back and think of how ridiculous that is that I listened to any of them.) Later, something in me clicked, and I decided to go back to school anyways. I spent a decade in retail turning down management offers, and listening to nay sayers tell me that I would just end up continuing to work there even after I graduate; that I was wasting my time. I walked away, and now I am five months from graduating. I do a lot of freelance work on the side which has really helped get my foot in the door. Or maybe just my big toe, but it's in there! 

The fact that your wife is supportive of you is great, because I feel like I would have struggled a lot more if I didn't have a strong support system from the people closest in my life. There is a chance that people will tell you no way but I suggest you dismiss it. Go for it. You should do what you want to do in this life. It is too short for any other kind of nonsense.


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## astroNikon (Jan 10, 2016)

You're too late. They found it ==> Biggest Galaxy Cluster in Early Universe Found

It used to be you joined a company for your career.  You got a pension when you retired (in your 50's) and all was well.

Nowadays you'll be lucky to retire when you are 70. And then you'll have to work at Walmart and be a greeter just to make ends meet.

So I say, go for it. Career changes are always good.


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## waday (Jan 11, 2016)

astroNikon said:


> You're too late. They found it ==> Biggest Galaxy Cluster in Early Universe Found
> 
> It used to be you joined a company for your career.  You got a pension when you retired (in your 50's) and all was well.
> 
> ...


Darn, haha! Retirement, what's that?

Right now, I'm looking over my old calculus and physics books to see how well I'd do going back to do some prerequisite classes for a physics degree. A lot of it's coming back to me, so that's good. Even though I'm young, it's hard to believe that the books I have are 12 years old.


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## Gary A. (Jan 11, 2016)

waday said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > You're too late. They found it ==> Biggest Galaxy Cluster in Early Universe Found
> ...


LOL ... Mary Lou earned her degree in Communications a few years ago, later in her life. I was helping her out and in her Communications and the Law class, there were cases and people cited that I used to work with or participated At the cited event. It was all pretty entertaining ... "I know him, he worked for the San Jose Mercury, we were at Diablo Canyon." ... Yeah, I remember Ronny, he was a paparazzi ... A real a-hole."

I was thinking that if you're gonna make a career change ... Go for the whole enchilada ... Move out west.  What you lose in housing, (out here the same money gets you a lot less house), will be more than covered by an overall and general improvement in quality of life.


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## waday (Jan 11, 2016)

Gary A. said:


> LOL ... Mary Lou earned her degree in Communications a few years ago, later in her life. I was helping her out and in her Communications and the Law class, there were cases and people cited that I used to work with or participated At the cited event. It was all pretty entertaining ... "I know him, he worked for the San Jose Mercury, we were at Diablo Canyon." ... Yeah, I remember Ronny, he was a paparazzi ... A real a-hole."
> 
> I was thinking that if you're gonna make a career change ... Go for the whole enchilada ... Move out west.  What you lose in housing, (out here the same money gets you a lot less house), will be more than covered by an overall and general improvement in quality of life.


Haha, that's funny. It's neat (and kinda weird) seeing people you know in documents like that! Very cool!

Don't tempt me!  I think I was born in the wrong place, as I really want to live on the West Coast. My wife and I have seriously discussed moving, and I will often bring up CA. We both have close-knit families; however, I'm more willing to 'stretch-the-yarn', so to speak, than my wife. She'd definitely get a little lonely being so far from her family in NYC, and she wouldn't want to miss any big events. As long as we'd make sure to fly back for big events, I'm sure she'd be fine.

Speaking of whole enchilada, that's definitely what I want to do. My wife is fairly certain she'd be able to find a job in any larger metropolitan area, so that's pretty good. I haven't even thought about universities, yet. That part scares me. But, the whole enchilada... I want to avoid baby steps to a degree. In other words, I don't want to try to migrate to another career using my current education. That is, side-step until I change careers; I don't personally think that's a realistic goal*. I want to migrate to another career by utilizing my education/background a stepping stone for another (preferably advanced) degree.

*Based on experience with my current company and discussions with friends in similar situations, it's nearly impossible to change tracks and/or disciplines. I've tried several times to no avail, despite the fact that my request was in line with (1) my current education/training/experience and (2) where our department wants to head. I'm 'too useful' in my current track to be utilized elsewhere.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 11, 2016)

Sounds like this job is going nowhere fast, but I think you need to get informed. At least you know you want a change, it's a matter of what. Use whatever resources are available to you _now_ - if you end up moving or going to school elsewhere, fine. But find out what jobs/careers are hiring, what can you realistically do with a doctorate in astro-physic whatever it is, or if there's anything else along the same lines you might like.

Anything you're considering - go check it out. In person. My youngest brother intended to go way out of state to go back to school. Went there. Hated it. Went out west to another place he though he'd like. Hated it. lol Got in some traveling but that was about it, wasn't at all like he thought it would be. Go out there on a trip/vacation before you up and move and don't burn bridges.

You know the saying the grass looks greener on the other side... well, yeah, sometimes. Something might _seem_ great, maybe because what you're doing now isn't fulfilling. It probably would be good to consider a number of possibilities til you figure out what it is that will make you happy and what realistically will be workable.


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## astroNikon (Jan 11, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> You know the saying the grass looks greener on the other side... well, yeah, sometimes. Something might _seem_ great, maybe because what you're doing now isn't fulfilling. It probably would be good to consider a number of possibilities til you figure out what it is that will make you happy and what realistically will be workable.


Yesterday the grass looked greener.  Then a blizzard hit and it's all white now.  
So, be careful in lawns or life.


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## vintagesnaps (Jan 11, 2016)

And by the way, whaddya mean Pluto isn't a planet?? Quit messin' with my head! lol Actually I've read that before but choose to ignore it because Pluto was a planet, it's staying a planet.


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## astroNikon (Jan 11, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> And by the way, whaddya mean Pluto isn't a planet?? Quit messin' with my head! lol Actually I've read that before but choose to ignore it because Pluto was a planet, it's staying a planet.


Pluto is a Planet in my books.


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## Gary A. (Jan 11, 2016)

Annnndddd my lawn is green. It was green yesterday.  It is green today ... Dollars to doughnuts it will be green tomorrow.


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## waday (Jan 12, 2016)

vintagesnaps said:


> Sounds like this job is going nowhere fast, but I think you need to get informed. At least you know you want a change, it's a matter of what. Use whatever resources are available to you _now_ - if you end up moving or going to school elsewhere, fine. But find out what jobs/careers are hiring, what can you realistically do with a doctorate in astro-physic whatever it is, or if there's anything else along the same lines you might like.
> 
> Anything you're considering - go check it out. In person. My youngest brother intended to go way out of state to go back to school. Went there. Hated it. Went out west to another place he though he'd like. Hated it. lol Got in some traveling but that was about it, wasn't at all like he thought it would be. Go out there on a trip/vacation before you up and move and don't burn bridges.
> 
> You know the saying the grass looks greener on the other side... well, yeah, sometimes. Something might _seem_ great, maybe because what you're doing now isn't fulfilling. It probably would be good to consider a number of possibilities til you figure out what it is that will make you happy and what realistically will be workable.


Thanks Sharon! Yes, I need to find what the job outlook would be. The gov't says that the job outlook is steady, but who knows how that would change in say 5-8 years. Definitely, I'm the kind of person what would want to check it out before moving. We've moved a bit in the past, and I've definitely learned how crucial it is to actually see a location, and learn about it, before moving.



vintagesnaps said:


> And by the way, whaddya mean Pluto isn't a planet?? Quit messin' with my head! lol Actually I've read that before but choose to ignore it because Pluto was a planet, it's staying a planet.





astroNikon said:


> Pluto is a Planet in my books.


NO! 
http://www.science4all.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Plutos-Tilted-Orbit.jpg



astroNikon said:


> vintagesnaps said:
> 
> 
> > You know the saying the grass looks greener on the other side... well, yeah, sometimes. Something might _seem_ great, maybe because what you're doing now isn't fulfilling. It probably would be good to consider a number of possibilities til you figure out what it is that will make you happy and what realistically will be workable.
> ...





Gary A. said:


> Annnndddd my lawn is green. It was green yesterday.  It is green today ... Dollars to doughnuts it will be green tomorrow.


My lawn is supposed to be somewhat white later today. We'll see how this change in grass color will affect my path forward.


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