# LICENSING QUESTION... PLEASE HELP ME!



## 2KMILER (Apr 8, 2013)

A medium sized bank has contacted me to purchase rights to one of my photogrpahs. I am new to this side of the business, and I am struggling with a figure to even begin with negotiations, as this is a somewhat unique scenario:

The Bank wants to put my image on their Credit/Debit cards. Anywhere from 10,000-30,000 images.

Does anyone have ANY idea on what I should charge? This is not a magazine. This is DAILY USE of my image for over 5 years.

Here's my math:
If 10,000 cards are issued, and say the average person uses that card twice daily, then that equates to 7,300,000 uses of my image a year, and 36,500,000 for 5 years.

This is not a print ad, and have no way of getting a figure... HOW MUCH SHOULD I CHARGE? Your help will be much appreciated.


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## pjwarneka (Apr 8, 2013)

Congratulations! 
when you are figuring amounts,  the 10,000 printed cards is the total amount.  You don't really count each time someone swipes their personal card at Starbucks as a usage.   Now, 10K cards is nothing to sneeze at.   
Check out  John Harrington's website. he has a nice estimator on jobs like this.  
Washington DC Photographer: Pricing - Corporate/Marketing Photography
If you want to consider the card as a 'brochure"   $1280 PER year ( x5)  comes up.   Remember it is a bank, so don't hold back your punches. 
Now if they want the copyright,  15,000 is fair depending on the image.  the highest I've ever sold one was $17,500.
Anyway,  Check out Johns site.  Hope it helps.


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## hirejn (Apr 8, 2013)

A bank is offering to pay you to put your image on their cards; get as much as you can. Banks have unlimited funds. The trick is getting them to give you what you want. If they want to own the image, I would think in the tens of thousands at least, maybe low hundreds. If you think the image is very marketable, get a lot for it. If you don't think so, go for less. If they just want to license it and you would still own it, ask less. Make the terms clear and have a lawyer review before you sign. You can use some licensing tools online. How did you come about this offer and how do you know it's legit?


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## 2KMILER (Apr 8, 2013)

I was contacted by a lady that works for this particular bank. It is legit... I have a website, phone number and know this is a real bank. Her boss told her to find me. It is a nature photo of a very popular spot to the region. This spot is within a 50 mile drive of all their customers.

I really apprecaite the feedback. I will definitely be looking into this further for sure. I had a big figure in mind, but not what you guys think! Wow...


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## Light Guru (Apr 8, 2013)

2KMILER said:


> Here's my math:
> If 10,000 cards are issued, and say the average person uses that card twice daily, then that equates to 7,300,000 uses of my image a year, and 36,500,000 for 5 years.



Number of times a day the card is used does NOT have anything to do with the equation at all.  The image put onto one card would constitute one usage.  

That said you should ask for 1% of every transaction done with cards that have your image on it.

Just kidding I could not resist putting that in.  

Most like likely thy want to purchase the some rights to the image, as they would not want some other company to also purchase rights to use the image also.  With that in mind you would want to charge a LOT more then a typical image licence fee.


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## 2KMILER (Apr 8, 2013)

Keep the advice coming! You guys have no idea how helpfull all the info is. Thank you.


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## KmH (Apr 8, 2013)

Here is a free use license generator, but it doesn't include pricing. :: PLUS :: License Generator

At only 10,000 to 30,000 credit/debit cards, it sounds like a small regional, or even local, bank.
Tell them your fee will be 1/4 of 1% a month, from all of the interest and fees they collect from all their credit/debit cards.  :lmao:

Yes, exclusive use costs more than non-exclusive use.

(I see me and Light Guru are think along the same lines.)

You might also visit http://asmp.org/ and on the left click on Business Resources. ASMP also links to the PLUS license generator.


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## Mully (Apr 8, 2013)

MBNA buys a lot of images for bank cards...... I do not think you will get more than $1500 per image for 2-3 years. Would not surprise me if the going rate was more like $500.  Look at it this way an AD will show to millions of people where a photo on a card maybe 10,000 people at best.


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 8, 2013)

hirejn said:


> Banks have unlimited funds.



Incorrect.  Where did you get that idea?  :raisedbrow:


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## 2KMILER (Apr 8, 2013)

Just got the first offer from the bank... $350!

Getty quoted me $3,000 since this afternoon, as I did more research. Money is money, but at this point I feel there is no way we are going to meet at a middle point here. I'd love to at least be able to buy some new equipment with this sale, but $350 is VERY LOW. 

I'm going to counter, but who has experience with this, and where is the line I scare them off...? I value my work, but with new equipment needed, I would like to make something off this. I've sold this print for twice what they are offering.


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## pjwarneka (Apr 8, 2013)

some deals are  worth doing, others are not.  using the generators, you will get the idea of how much you should get as a benchmark.  then reality sets in.  You have to find out who came up with that number and speak to that person. don't work from $0 up, work from $market  rate - down.   Ask what their marketing budget is for this card.  think in terms of percentage of marketing budget.   5%?  is this photo the main card, the one they will feature? 10% of the budget?


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## 2KMILER (Apr 8, 2013)

Thanks Patrick... I'm going to respond to the offer tomorrow and give myself some time to think tonight... They mentioned istockphoto.com and I think this is where they are coming up with the number.


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## pjwarneka (Apr 8, 2013)

2KMILER said:


> I'm going to counter, but who has experience with this, and where is the line I scare them off...? I value my work, but with new equipment needed, I would like to make something off this. I've sold this print for twice what they are offering.




OP<    Ask where the  $350 comes from.  you will need a crash course in how companies think, but there are a ton a variables. this is business, not personal.   You are allowed to ask what the total marketing budget is for this project. you are allowed to ask if the person you are speaking to can make the final decision. you are allowed to ask what the budget is FY14, 15,16 for this project. contract the payments of  $X,XXX  Q1 of each year.  If they are stuck on $350, offer a 6 month license at that rate for a 5 year term ($350 x 10).

Offer to invoice them every 6 months...  there are a lot of ways companies structure payments.  these are a few.


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## pjwarneka (Apr 8, 2013)

That is even low for Istock
Lady Winter | Stock Photo | iStock


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## spacefuzz (Apr 8, 2013)

$350 is a joke, they are trying to play you. 

The only way I would do it that low is if they put my name as a photo credit on the card.....but Im sure a bank wouldnt do that


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## orljustin (Apr 8, 2013)

2KMILER said:


> Thanks Patrick... I'm going to respond to the offer tomorrow and give myself some time to think tonight... They mentioned istockphoto.com and I think this is where they are coming up with the number.



You could use any image from iStock at $1 and up for this project.  Now, if they don't want something from there and absolutely want yours, you can ask what you want.  You'll have to figure out where the balance of 'we really want it' vs 'not at that price' is.


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## Steve5D (Apr 8, 2013)

hirejn said:


> Banks have unlimited funds.



That's certainly in the top three silliest things I've read today...


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## KmH (Apr 8, 2013)

Because of the digital image explosion, companies are able to approach inexperienced photographers and get good images at a fraction of their worth.

Many photographers are short on business acumen. Salesmanship skills and negotiating skills are a big part of making money from your photographs.


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## aonavy (Apr 9, 2013)

whats the images? can we see a tiny tiny picture?


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## jwbryson1 (Apr 9, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> hirejn said:
> 
> 
> > Banks have unlimited funds.
> ...




Yep.  Stupid comment.


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## 2KMILER (Apr 9, 2013)

SO HERE IS A COPY OF THE EMAIL I SENT THE BANK (1st reply)

Thank you for your quick reply and details on the images and potential cards. They look great.

So, I have a few questions: 

1.) What is the marketing budget for this campaign?

2.) What is the time frame of the license you are seeking? Are you looking for exclusive rights, or non-exclusive?

3.) How many cards are going to be offered?

4.) Who makes the final decision on the price set for the image? Is that you, or someone else?

5.) Will the image only be used on the credit/debit cards? Or do you want to use it on brochures and the website as well?

6.) Would my image be one of the more heavily promoted cards due to it's regional influence?


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## Subitman (May 7, 2013)

What happened? It's been almost a month.


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## imagemaker46 (May 8, 2013)

Don't be surprised that the offers are lower than you are expecting or wanting, if you can get between $1000-1500 be happy with that.  You may find that they would be more willing to offer you between $500-750.  As an individual and not an agency they will only negotiate to a certain point and if a fee isn't worked out to their likes, they will simply find another photo from someone else.  That is the nature of business these days.

So many photos available and everyone wants cheap.


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## CCericola (May 8, 2013)

I worked for 3 banks. They ate notoriously cheap. That us why you see the same stock photos at multiple banks used on brochures/posters. 

Everything has a budget that us approved then audited at the end. So price negotiation is tight. I've even seen them send interns out with cameras instead.

So stick to your guns. Ask a fair price but don't be sad if they pass and go someplace else. 

If the bank had large pockets you would have been contacted by the ad/design agency that services them.


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## texkam (May 8, 2013)

They will either move on to another cheaper image or try to re-create your shot (if possible). If you want to walk away with something, asking $1000.00, but being prepared to take 750.00 may get it done. Anything more than that increases the odds of them balking, IMHO. Good luck.


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