# A plan to end the pointless squabbling about who is right.



## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2015)

It seems that there is a lot of extended arguing about subjects sort of tangential to the issue of photography.
And the reason this goes on is because the authority of some people to speak on specific subjects is just not easily recognized.
I thought to enable simple identification when an expert joins in any discussion, TPF could enact a system like the merit badges that boy scouts use or medals like the military to designate that someone has achieved a certain level of knowledge, skill and experience and is the expert.






The  may look a bit bulky to fit in a signature so we could either use ribbons or an alternative display.



or like




That way, if a recognized and designated expert steps into a discussion and makes a pronouncement, arguements will stop.
We could think of him or her, not as having an opinion, but as a vessel that will transmit truth and fact.

I would like to be considered as an expert in cropping, independent travel in Asia and disaster management (yes, I know disasters don't come up often but we would be prepared.)

We may need a committee to examine credentials and qualifications befoire establishing the cadre of experts but that's just an administrative matter.

Any suggestions or nominations?


----------



## jaomul (Sep 2, 2015)

Which ones would you have?


----------



## pixmedic (Sep 2, 2015)

I nominate @Derrel  for...pretty much everything
@runnah for comedy relief.
@Buckster for copyright issues
@tirediron for portraiture and lighting
@Vtec44 and @Robin Usagani for weddings
@coastalconn for wildlife (there's actually a few fantastic wildlife guys here, but i don't keep up on that as much)
and @pixmedic for cardiac defibrillation, ventilator support, and critical care transports.


----------



## medic2230 (Sep 2, 2015)

I think we should add a purple heart for the one who loses the argument and is proven wrong. That should help weed out the self proclaimed experts.


----------



## jsecordphoto (Sep 2, 2015)

I think that's a great idea. I'd love one for landscape astrophotography so I can squash the advice that surely comes up "just shoot at like iso400 f22 for 1/100"


----------



## baturn (Sep 2, 2015)

Can I be Master of Bulls--t Recognition?


----------



## sm4him (Sep 2, 2015)

Well, I must admit, when I worked with Boy Scouts and mentored Scouts working their way toward Eagle, I was always just a teensy little bit jealous that *I* was the one with all the actual knowledge and THEY were the ones getting the merit badges... 
Since I taught the Photography merit badge, I think that would give me an edge on all the TPF competition, right?
Of course, I also taught Environmental Science, Nature, Insects, and at least a dozen other merit badges, so I'm pretty much just the Grand Poobah of Things Worth Earning a Merit Badge In.
I'm also a top authority on Bird ID. Unless they're shorebirds. Or sparrows. Or birds from outside the Southeastern U.S. 

Okay, never mind any of that^^
I just want to be the Grand TPF Matriarch of Truth, Civility and Sarcastic Wit.


----------



## waday (Sep 2, 2015)

We'll also need peer review of all comments made by the experts, so we should have at least two people per category.

We'll also need someone to bring all these people back to Earth when their head expands to a point where it has it's own gravitational field.

This seems like so much work. Can I have the laziness badge?


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> I nominate @Derrel  for...pretty much everything
> @runnah for comedy relief.
> @Buckster for copyright issues
> @tirediron for portraiture and lighting
> ...



Perhaps we should set criteria that the medals should be for actual demonstrated skills not just what the person thinks of themselves.

For my sake, I am really tired of the constant '_I know more than you because_ _blah, blah, blah_' and, _in my extensive experience which is unfortunately invisible and unknowable to you_'.
Beyond tiring and offputting to the readers, it just makes the people involved look bad to others.

There are just too, too many people who spout reams of bullcrap, never post pictures that add to the level of the site and just sit around waiting to look smart or educated.
Spouting facts or factoids, that could be better gotten from real authorities, doesn't make the site any better.
Posting images that provide great examples does.
Giving critique on images does.

Yes, yes, we get lots of things from different kinds of members.
I've heard that from the mods before.
But we have a superfluity of words from people who post little or nothing, no matter what they claim.
And that doesn't help the site at all.


----------



## pixmedic (Sep 2, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > I nominate @Derrel  for...pretty much everything
> ...



I was just trying to give my answer to the inevitable question of who we would personally recommend. 
which, except for cropping, travel, and disasters, you haven't made any other suggestions. 

this leads to another problem as well. 
who are the judges?
the official committee would obviously be the admins/moderators...which begs the question...do most people trust our judgement on who is qualified? 
slippery slope naming someone "expert" in a field that is often subjective. 
what happens if we name someone an "expert oon cropping" and a large portion of the forum disagrees?
do we drop their title? does it just become a popularity contest then?
does the forum vote on who they think is "best of show"? how often do we do re-elections?


----------



## waday (Sep 2, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> does the forum vote on who they think is "best of show"?


I'll vote, assuming they are paraded around on a leash. Pictures required. Otherwise, I abstain.


----------



## pixmedic (Sep 2, 2015)

I think in the end, it just comes down to people  having to do a little of their own research. 
if you take something your read from a random person on the internet at face value and do no further research on your own....well...your taking your chances, expert or not. 

if i critique portraits and you arent sure if i know anything at all about it...you can look at my work and decide for yourself. 
some people like my work, some don't, but i rarely "critique" anything that isn't people because I feel I have little to offer critique wise outside of portrait work. 
if someone critiques my work, I look at that persons body of work whenever possible. Is that persons work something that i want to learn from? if they have no work to show, then I just have to take their critique into account based on other peoples remarks along with my own research.


----------



## Derrel (Sep 2, 2015)

jsecordphoto5 said:
			
		

> I think that's a great idea. I'd love one for landscape astrophotography so I can squash the advice that surely comes up "just shoot at like iso400 f22 for 1/100"



Hey--why you knockin my secret sauce for nighttime landscape shots!? I like 'em realllllllllllllllllllly dark, so that is the best exposure triangle setting--eva!


----------



## jaomul (Sep 2, 2015)

I learn from this site. There are a few who post a lot so I think names get recognised, and with time I find there are some posters who I really think their posts are worth reading, some who regurgitate internet dribble or copy and paste with a twist that makes it look like their own.

With regard to actually critique on a photo- I (and maybe others??) consider myself an enthusiast who likes tech, photos and the discussion here. I think i have a few thousand posts since I started but I'd bet 1% of them critique on others photos. I don't think I'm good enough to give anything other than basic guidance to something that can be easily fixed, or is obviously wrong. When I read some of the critique from others they seem to have a very big knowledge of how to see flaws on a photograph. For me its mostly "thats good" except maybe crop this way, others see a small spec of sensor dust i would miss, others are very artistic.

Recently I did critique a few photos , only to get a smart arse defence back, which could have turned into keyboard warrior type stuff if I decided to reciprocate. Maybe, just maybe that's why there isn't a massive amount of people who do critique, relative to the amount of members here


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

Derrel said:


> jsecordphoto5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So would ISO 400, F22, 1/8000 work?  Some of us just don't have the attention span needed to stand around for a whole 1/100 of a second.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2015)

jaomul said:


> I learn from this site.
> 
> I think i have a few thousand posts since I started but I'd bet 1% of them critique on others photos. I don't think I'm good enough to give anything other than basic guidance to something that can be easily fixed, or is obviously wrong.



You are cheating yourself out of a great learning experience; it's as much for yourself as it is for others.
Critique isn't anything secret.
If you look at a picture and like it or dislike it, think its good or its bad, the next step is just to try to understand why you think that. 
Your brain isn't special, it incorporates that same kind of subconscious parsing engine that most people have (probably the Western civilization version).
You just have to activate that engine and figure out what it says.


----------



## runnah (Sep 2, 2015)

While I am one to always question and argue with authority I do think the idea has some merit.

The easiest way in my mind to gain authority on a subject is to post work. For example, I take everything Coastalconn says about birding as gospel because he is damn good at it! Others who never post work, I don't hold their opinions in very high regard.


----------



## BananaRepublic (Sep 2, 2015)

I think Braineack should get the one for scathing and sarcastic remarks

Who hands out these medals and in a world where cash is king and plutocrats rule they could be bought, leaned on or brow beaten.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

jaomul said:


> Who hands out these medals and in a world where cash is king and plutocrats rule they could be bought, leaned on or brow beaten.



So can we sign up for this brow beating of plutocrats thing, because dang that sounds like fun.


----------



## tirediron (Sep 2, 2015)

BananaRepublic said:


> I think Braineack should get the one for scathing and sarcastic remarks
> 
> Who hands out these medals and in a world where cash is king and plutocrats rule they could be bought, leaned on or brow beaten.


 They'll be available for an extra ninety-nine cents with the TPF Cafeteria's daily $10 lunch special.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

tirediron said:


> BananaRepublic said:
> 
> 
> > I think Braineack should get the one for scathing and sarcastic remarks
> ...


So pretty much any gimmick you can find to increase mystery meat sales I guess...Lol

I do see the point Lew makes but of course administering something like this would prove impossible.  You'd be hard pressed in many categories to name an expert that most would agree on.

For my part there are those who's opinions I respect and trust, and those who are obviously full of more than just the lunch special.  I just try to learn what I can from who I can and leave the chaff behind.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk


----------



## BananaRepublic (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > Who hands out these medals and in a world where cash is king and plutocrats rule they could be bought, leaned on or brow beaten.
> ...



I said that not jaomul,  whoever that guy is Im suing him for intellectual property infringement.


----------



## Vtec44 (Sep 2, 2015)

hahaha I'm no expert but just merely providing my own personal opinion.  There are so many ways to do the same thing...


----------



## jaomul (Sep 2, 2015)

BananaRepublic said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > jaomul said:
> ...



I'm being mis quoted. Can I sue someone. Preferably in Ireland


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

jaomul said:


> BananaRepublic said:
> 
> 
> > robbins.photo said:
> ...



Sue everybody in Ireland.  That would be classy, so that would make it a Class Action lawsuit, right?


----------



## astroNikon (Sep 2, 2015)

who would get the "TPF God" badge ?


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

astroNikon said:


> who would get the "TPF God" badge ?



Whoever the watery tart throws the sword at, obviously.  Until then I guess we'll just have to take it on ourselves to act as sort of an "Executive Officer" of the week.


----------



## pixmedic (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > who would get the "TPF God" badge ?
> ...



moistened bints, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.


----------



## SCraig (Sep 2, 2015)

I personally see it as a way for some who already have an inflated sense of self-importance to increase their head size even more.

Regardless of the badges / medals / accolades / whatever it isn't going to make me any more or less impressed with someone's abilities.  Respect is something that must be earned.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2015)

I apologize to those who took me seriously.

I was trying to make the point that here, on the Internet, in a place where art and opinion should hold sway, many, too many people are trying to bolster their own ego, needing to be 'right', alluding to outside experience to bolster their facts

In actuality, facts don't need bolstering.

As for the rest, they are opinions - and no one has a lock on the best opinion about pictures.

Not anyone.


----------



## runnah (Sep 2, 2015)

OK so I started handing out the badges and awards.

...and I'm done.


----------



## JacaRanda (Sep 2, 2015)

There should be an award for use of the (Ignore) feature.

Wondering if the mods or admins can tell if it's ever been used....for longer than one or two posts.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> moistened bints, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.



Anarchist.

Lol

Ok, now granted it may not be a perfect system.. but it's not like we've come up with anything that really works better since.  So..


----------



## NancyMoranG (Sep 2, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> I apologize to those who took me seriously.
> 
> .



Oh man, I have been looking forward to the 'quickest to have eyes glaze over at technical responses' badge!!


----------



## Trever1t (Sep 2, 2015)

Where's mine?!


----------



## runnah (Sep 2, 2015)

Trever1t said:


> Where's mine?!



This is a family forum so we can't show your badge.


----------



## snerd (Sep 2, 2015)

I have high friends in low places.


----------



## medic2230 (Sep 2, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> *I apologize to those who took me seriously.*
> 
> I was trying to make the point that here, on the Internet, in a place where art and opinion should hold sway, many, too many people are trying to bolster their own ego, needing to be 'right', alluding to outside experience to bolster their facts
> 
> ...



But, but, IT WAS ON THE INTERNET!!!! 


Going to go sit in a corner till I can show my face again.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> I apologize to those who took me seriously.
> 
> I was trying to make the point that here, on the Internet, in a place where art and opinion should hold sway, many, too many people are trying to bolster their own ego, needing to be 'right', alluding to outside experience to bolster their facts
> 
> ...



Just keep us posted on how the lawsuit against the daughter and grandson turns out, will ya?  Lol.

But it is a good point.  If your right and the facts support it you really don't need any bluster to bolster.


----------



## pixmedic (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > moistened bints, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
> ...



help, im being oppressed!
see the violence inherent in the system!


----------



## Buckster (Sep 2, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> I was trying to make the point that here, on the Internet, in a place where art and opinion should hold sway, many, too many people are trying to bolster their own ego, needing to be 'right', alluding to outside experience to bolster their facts


Hmmm... Seems like you have someone in particular in mind with this statement.  Do you need a hug, maybe?  Sometimes people just need a hug.  



robbins.photo said:


> Just keep us posted on how the lawsuit against the daughter and grandson turns out, will ya?


Indeed!  Because that smarmy handful of poop really should be thrown at every possible opportunity!  

So much FUN!!


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Hmmm... Seems like you have someone in particular in mind with this statement.  Do you need a hug, maybe?  Sometimes people just need a hug.



Nope, not really.  Just a general observation.  



robbins.photo said:


> Indeed!  Because that smarmy handful of poop really should be thrown at every possible opportunity!
> 
> So much FUN!!



Ok, well just trying to brighten Lew's day a bit, figured he'd get a chuckle out of it.  But I guess we'll just make it all about you, if that will make you happy.  You know there are folks who do specialize in treating the egocentric, should you ever decide you need to talk to someone.


----------



## Buckster (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed!  Because that smarmy handful of poop really should be thrown at every possible opportunity!
> ...


Pardon?  What's it have to do with me?  I thought it was all about Lew and his lawsuit against his daughter and grandson, like it says.  Why are you trying to make it about me now?

Maybe you need a hug too.  Here you go.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Pardon?  What's it have to do with me?  I thought it was all about Lew and his lawsuit against his daughter and grandson, like it says.  Why are you trying to make it about me now?
> 
> Maybe you need a hug too.  Here you go.



Might want to ask whoever you call if they can also treat schizophrenia.  Who knows, maybe you'll get a group discount.


----------



## Buckster (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon?  What's it have to do with me?  I thought it was all about Lew and his lawsuit against his daughter and grandson, like it says.  Why are you trying to make it about me now?
> ...


LOL!  I gotta give it to you - that made as much sense as planting a pickle to grow a pony wearing a cucumber saddle.


----------



## minicoop1985 (Sep 2, 2015)

Why is there more than one response to this? We all know that i know everything.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

Buckster said:


> LOL!  I gotta give it to you - that made as much sense as planting a pickle to grow a pony wearing a cucumber saddle.



Ya, sorry, not even the Google Nonsense to English translator could give me a workable translation for this one.  So I guess I'll pull a page out of Lew's book.

Bog ne dayet korova, kotoraya okurki

And perhaps, more importantly

Vidna ptitsa po polyotu.

Do svidanya


----------



## medic2230 (Sep 2, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Pardon?  What's it have to do with me?  I thought it was all about Lew and his lawsuit against his daughter and grandson, like it says.  Why are you trying to make it about me now?
> ...





Buckster said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...



Do you two need a room?


----------



## Buckster (Sep 2, 2015)

medic2230 said:


> Do you two need a room?


Will it accommodate Robbin's pony wearing a cucumber saddle that speaks Russian?  I always wanted to see a gorilla ride one of those.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

medic2230 said:


> robbins.photo said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...


Nope.  Said my goodbyes, hit ignore.  Nothing more really required on my end.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk


----------



## snowbear (Sep 2, 2015)

*ᑕᒃᑯᒧᖅᑐᖅ  (*takkumuqtuq)


----------



## Vtec44 (Sep 2, 2015)

Well that escalated quickly...


----------



## medic2230 (Sep 2, 2015)

Vtec44 said:


> Well that escalated quickly...



Where did you say that escalator was?


----------



## snowbear (Sep 2, 2015)

I say let the disputants go for a couple rounds of _Rollerball_


----------



## medic2230 (Sep 2, 2015)

Could have a seperate thread for them to battle it out in. That would keep other threads from getting closed and they could go at each other while we watched and were entertained.


----------



## snowbear (Sep 2, 2015)

I was thinking less figuratively.  Pick a spot between them, get some money through crowdsourcing . . . Sell enough tickets and we could expand the Lens Across America program.


----------



## robbins.photo (Sep 2, 2015)

snowbear said:


> I was thinking less figuratively.  Pick a spot between them, get some money through crowdsourcing . . . Sell enough tickets and we could expand the Lens Across America program.


Lol.  Well I just opted for the ignore button instead.  I haven't fought competitively in a while, but, for the right charity....

Lol. 

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk


----------



## MRnats (Sep 2, 2015)

So many hurted feelings in this thread


----------



## unpopular (Sep 2, 2015)

squabbling greatly improves my trolling opportunity. I am steadfastly opposed to any efforts to end it.


----------



## The_Traveler (Sep 2, 2015)

Buckster said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I was trying to make the point that here, on the Internet, in a place where art and opinion should hold sway, many, too many people are trying to bolster their own ego, needing to be 'right', alluding to outside experience to bolster their facts
> ...



Since you ask, yes.

I don't need much of anything.


----------



## KenC (Sep 2, 2015)

How did I know that a thread with this title would descend into pointless squabbling?


----------



## limr (Sep 2, 2015)

KenC said:


> How did I know that a thread with this title would descend into pointless squabbling?



Because irony is ironic that way?


----------



## BananaRepublic (Sep 3, 2015)

robbins.photo said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > BananaRepublic said:
> ...



We already made or selves flat broke cause we sold bits or own country to one another for exorbitant prices.


----------



## astroNikon (Sep 3, 2015)

KenC said:


> How did I know that a thread with this title would descend into pointless squabbling?


You're wrong about that .. seems perfectly fine.

except for the pony/cucumber salad and lawsuits .. and ......


----------



## crzyfotopeeple (Sep 3, 2015)

If I only would have known all this time that I  need to find an all knowing judge of photography with a merit badge to guide me all my pictures wouldn't suck so much. Nah... probably still would suck. A little self deprecating to lighten the mood.


----------



## rexbobcat (Sep 5, 2015)

Buckster said:


> To put it bluntly then, I don't know how to BS a nice way to say things a lot of the time



I'm not sure being tactful is quite the same as BSing.


----------



## Buckster (Sep 5, 2015)

rexbobcat said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > To put it bluntly then, I don't know how to BS a nice way to say things a lot of the time
> ...


Understood.  On the flip side of that coin, I'm not sure it's all that different either.  

Linked for the fun of it: Why Old Men Don't Get Hired


----------

