# The Art Of Critique



## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Since joining the forum I have received two distinct types of "critique". One type can be cranky, is always shooting from the hip, no holds barred, knee jerk, I like it or I hate it. This is not helpful. That sort of response (its not a critique) is likely to be taken personally: I am a good person; I am not a good person. It does not promote growth, it does not help the OP in any way and Im not sure what it does for the person posting the critiqueperhaps it makes them feel better about their own work or even themselves. In any case, this review is no good to me. 

The second type is why I even began posting images here. I need to get better. I enjoy photography, but I feel a certain urgency to know more and be able to create something Im proud of in addition to having others admire it. But the admiration of my customers or my peers is not why I am a photographer. I do this first and foremost for the love of the medium. Although I do not do darkroom work any more, the smell of chemicals is in my blood, I love it. The digital age has brought me new controls and the ability to create all manner of images, some good and some not so much, but I am driven to improve my skillsalways.

I know I am not alone. I am a non posting member of several other forums; none of them are as chatty as this one. No games. Little or no double entendre and certainly no potty jokes to take up band width. There are very few or no tantrums. Banning seems to be reserved for true spammers and the wholesale closing of threads by the moderator because they want a discussion to stopwelljust doesnt seem to happen. The forum is for adults, after all. If you want a playground in which this type of activity is nourished then you must accept those engaging in that activity. If you want a place to learn all manner of photographic techniques and be inspired by others executing those techniques then we need to get on with it.

Good critique can be a tutorial in itself. Some of us are really not sure how to give a good one. I know there are those out there who cringe every time they see another OOF baby or another animal with no feet, ears or tail or an under or over exposed or over saturated face that the OP defends aswell, art. They and I need to be educated. Of course that does not mean they or I will learn. Education is not passive. It takes a willing recipient. Not just willinglearning it is an aggressive activity. Sometimes the OP will be so sure of an images value and quality that it is posted not for critique but for the roar of the crowd, the one in their own head. This is not me. I want the objective critique one might receive if they were in a classroom situation. At this point you are probably asking yourself why the hell dont I just go find what Im looking for in another place because this isnt the place for me. Well, thats the next step.


  Before I make that decision, *I am asking those educators, those knowledgeable photographers, how to give a good critique.* I know there must be objective elements and Id like to know what they are. Start with the technical issues and move to the emotional, the artistry of the image. Because art is personal, how can we critique it? How does one critique an image that one hates for no other reason than a dislike for the subject? I know it would be critiqued if we were all in a classroom, lets learn it here. 

  We can turn the bus away from the childrens playground into an adult learning center if we want to. When I say this I do not mean chronological adulthood. There is a 14 year old regular contributor here whose parents must be very proud, I know I would be. I am speaking about the many so-called adults who must have huge problems navigating the world's communities for their immaturity, their bullying nature, their disregard for simple common courtesies and for their total inability to communicate.  Lets be examples to them, lets not join them. 

I would add that currently there is a thread which is for serious critique so if you want one instead of a mindless attaboy/girl then post your image link here: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/s...d.php?t=122391 and we all can practice our critiquing skillsit will make us better photographers.


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## Rachelsne (May 15, 2008)

I sometimes wonder how helpful my critiques are, I am a new still to photography, but I like to contribute because I feel it helps me learn and people are more likely to help me when I need it.

If I dont like a picture, I say the reason, but I will always try and find something I like, because I know how dejected it can make you feel when you get a whole load of negatives.

I love it when people tell me how to improve a shot, and for me that is the most important thing when I get critique-dont just tell me you like it, tell me why!

Thanks for posting this thread, it makes a nice reminder for everyone, and sorry I hope you dont mind me adding my 2 cents


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

[FONT=&quot]Don't apologize.  There's no crying in photography.[/FONT]

Rachelsne, if you want to learn how to properly critique an image then hold on, I believe we may learn.  It is true that negative critique can hurt, but from that we will grow.  I'm a tie-the-dangling-baby-tooth-with-a-thread-on-a-door-knob-and-yank-it-out kinda gal.  Get it over with and get a new one (that may date me, I'm not sure anyone does that anymore).  Many say they want an honest critique, but really only want to hear the positives.  Watch those folks for a while.  They do not change.  Their images stagnate.  At first you may think they&#8217;re good and then you realize that&#8217;s all they can do.  

And here's the kicker:  A good critique doesn't have to come from a great photographer.  It can come from anywhere.  You will know if you've received one.  You will feel something.  It won't always feel great, but it will always be good for you.  This critique can come from you and me.  We just need to know how to do it.  A wide variety of good critique can really be enlightening.  It makes us reach.  It makes us get out of our comfort zones.  It makes us better photographers.


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## jcolman (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> I want the objective critique one might receive if they were in a classroom situation.



Not that many people really want to hear the things that some of my old photography instructors use to say.  Instructors are some of the hardest people to please and rightfully so.  Their philosophy was that if you could please them then you should be able to please any client.  Some people here have a hard time understanding that.


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## caspertodd (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> One type can be cranky, is always shooting from the hip, no holds barred, knee jerk, I like it or I hate it. This is not helpful. That sort of response (its not a critique) is likely to be taken personally: I am a good person; I am not a good person. It does not promote growth,


 
That is a matter of personal opion.  I definitely appreciate when someone takes the time just to even tell me they like (or do not like) a photo I took.  If they don't like it, then I ask what I can do to improve on.  While I agree that this is more of an adult attitude type forum, we should still be friendly and have fun, and telling someone you like their photo (if you do) promotes a positive attitude.  I'm new to photography and may not be able to tell you why I like a photo, I just do.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

jcolman said:


> Not that many people really want to hear the things that some of my old photography instructors use to say.  Instructors are some of the hardest people to please and rightfully so.  Their philosophy was that if you could please them then you should be able to please any client.  Some people here have a hard time understanding that.



Yes, the critique may seem harsh. I would hope that the best ones are  honest but objective, but they don't have to be hurtful or mean spirited. I would submit that if someone does not want an honest critique they should stop asking for such.



caspertodd said:


> That is a matter of personal opion.  I definitely appreciate when someone takes the time just to even tell me they like (or do not like) a photo I took.  If they don't like it, then I ask what I can do to improve on.  While I agree that this is more of an adult attitude type forum, we should still be friendly and have fun, and telling someone you like their photo (if you do) promotes a positive attitude.  I'm new to photography and may not be able to tell you why I like a photo, I just do.



If all you want is an attaboy, then you needn't be part of the honest critique seekers.  This forum is full of fun seekers, you should hang with them.  I think positive attitudes come from within, I certainly don't go to an online community to fulfill those needs.  Good luck with that.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 15, 2008)

I just bookmarked that critiquing page.  I didn't reply to your thread with the bird cuz it's not my bag.  I know nothing about wildlife photo's, don't look at them often, and would have very little meaning to a crique if I tryed to offer one.

Sometimes, not saying anything at all REALLY IS *the* best thing someone can do if they are not educated enough to provide a responce.

Like, I could reply and say "wow, these are crap.  You should have stopped the water here, upped your fstop here, changed this color or that.." but if I'm talking out of my ass, really what good does it do for the photographer OR its picture?  Especially if the photographer see's the critique and then trashes what could be a perfectly good photograph!  Based on the spoutings of someone they don't know across a computer screen.

In any case, it's just always important to consider the source.  Hang around here a while and you notice who will give you straight up good critiques.

I like the idea of that thread though.  I'll keep it in mind.


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## caspertodd (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> If all you want is an attaboy, then you needn't be part of the honest critique seekers. This forum is full of fun seekers, you should hang with them. I think positive attitudes come from within, I certainly don't go to an online community to fulfill those needs. Good luck with that.


 
Don't worry, I'll stay away from your "serious" posts


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

kellylindseyphotography said:


> I just bookmarked that critiquing page. I didn't reply to your thread with the bird cuz it's not my bag. I know nothing about wildlife photo's, don't look at them often, and would have very little meaning to a crique if I tryed to offer one.
> 
> Sometimes, not saying anything at all REALLY IS *the* best thing someone can do if they are not educated enough to provide a responce.
> 
> ...


 
But photography is art - thus part of art is the end result - its never going to please all, but if it does not then there is no reason not to say anything. You just have to do so in a polite manner.
Also if you give the "wrong" technical advice I would expect others to suddenly appear and "correct" it - or to give thier views because chances are that even if its not your area you are making these assessments based on your understanding which might very well be the same thoughts that the photographer is thinking but not saying.

All in all I say say what you will and crit who and what you want - but in all cases speak (write) in a respectful manner and even if you hate a shot alwasy look for the good points in it -- there are very few shots which are all bad, most have a few good points which can be praised and then you can get on a say what and where the bad parts are


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Kelly, that is why I started this thread, because I feel that we both have something to offer as critique even if it's "not our bag".  I think we can learn to be objective about subjects that we do not care about. It will help us improve all our skills.  I wanted to know more about judging artistry.  If we submitted our images for a juried exhibition you can be sure they will be judged by people who do not necessarily enjoy all the subjects they review.  I want to know what that criteria is so I will stick around for some of the more experienced to assist.


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## Don Kondra (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> And here's the kicker: A good critique doesn't have to come from a great photographer. It can come from anywhere. You will know if you've received one. You will feel something. It won't always feel great, but it will always be good for you. This critique can come from you and me. *We just need to know how to do it*. A wide variety of good critique can really be enlightening. It makes us reach. It makes us get out of our comfort zones. It makes us better photographers.


 
I think you already know how to do it and are simply encouraging us to try, your words are certainly elegant and have provoked an emotional response in me. 

I've recently discovered a passion for photography that I didn't know existed in me. 

Looking back at various criticisms I've received in my life, I've come to realize the one thing that was generally missing was a positive and/or encouraging aspect. I try very hard to take that lesson to heart and I would hope others will as well.

Keeping that in mind, there really isn't anything magic about giving a critique. 

You can comment on a technical issue such as depth of field/bokeh or the rule of thirds. Sometimes just acknowledging that the poster has taken this into account is enough. It's still just a pat on the back but it has some substance and may encourage them to be aware of that aspect in future shots. 

I try to avoid absolutes such as "you need to do THIS". It may be true but it isn't encouraging. A suggestion to try it a different way may be more helpful. Say the post is a picture of a lovely landscape but it was a cloudy day. Perhaps you could ask if they had tried the image in black and white... Telling them to come back on a sunny day isn't that helpful especially if that is the mood they were looking for :mrgreen:

You could comment on the crop of a picture, there may be something in the frame that you feel doesn't need to be there... if you're not sure it could be posed as a question. 

Please don't justify your comment by saying something like "I'm just a noobie". I hate that term and it's just as bad as saying "in my years of I'm so good experience".. 

If you are perceptive you should be able to read between the lines and feel that I'm struggling to express myself. 

Most of us do that but if we try to be honest and speak from the heart we will have offered a good critique.

Cheers, Don


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

Oh boy. I love these topics.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

^^^ Bookmark that critique thread (http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122391), Don. I suspect we all may get some practice in the art of critique.  Fun seekers should probably stay away as the birth of a photographer may be fraught  some pain, but oh, the promise of beauty will be well worth it.


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## RyanLilly (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> I know I am not alone. I am a non posting member of several other forums; none of them are as chatty as this one. No games. Little or no double entendre and certainly no potty jokes to take up band width. There are very few or no tantrums. Banning seems to be reserved for true spammers and the wholesale closing of threads by the moderator because they want a discussion to stopwelljust doesnt seem to happen. The forum is for adults, after all. If you want a playground in which this type of activity is nourished then you must accept those engaging in that activity. If you want a place to learn all manner of photographic techniques and be inspired by others executing those techniques then we need to get on with it.



Are you saying that, you *do *or *don't *like the Chattiness, games, and casual jokes? Personally thats why I stick around this forum, It's fun. People can be themselves here and you can actually get to know people, not just boring, lifeless, canned responses. We can still help each other and have a good time all at once.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

RyanLilly, again, if you are not interested in serious critique, meant for serious photographers trying to improve their skills; those not so much interested in the cliques, game playing, chattiness and jokes, then that's fine.  You are in the majority here.  Have fun.


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## caspertodd (May 15, 2008)

Ryanlilly, I guess you and I are not serious photographers since we like to have fun as well and discuss photography as a hobby (along with critique...positive or negative)..


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

Shall we move away from the flaming or can I get me flamethrower and napalm for this thread?
As I said earlier the key think is to speak in a respectful manner - that goes a long long way to making not only good comments but also a good community - be it online or in the physical world


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

The fact of the matter is that most people who post on this board have little idea what they're doing in terms of technique, and have a poor or not yet developed eye for subject matter and composition. As such, the general guidelines for giving a professional critique don't apply very well, though they shouldn't be disregarded entirely. If people are posting images for critique in order to get a pat on the back, then they're posting for the wrong reason. If you want a critique it should be because you want to understand what you're doing wrong, and what you've done right (if anything). In that vein, I often look at images posted for critique here and see a laundry list of problems, from poor exposure to unoriginal composition, poor attention to light and other environmental factors, and terrible post-processing. So it's often really very difficult to give an "encouraging" critique when there are so many wrong things that also need to be noted. Frankly, I've mostly stopped giving critiques because a) the goodie-goodies here jump all over me, and b) I'm really quite insulted that someone would spent so little time learning their craft and their art and then even have the nerve to ask why their photo looks like ****. Go read a book you lazy amateur bums! If you study and you practice, and then you've got some real questions, I'm more than happy to oblige, but don't break your D40 or whatever out of the box and go shoot a terrible photo of a flower in your back yard and then ask for approval, or why I have more bad things to say than good.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

caspertodd said:


> Ryanlilly, I guess you and I are not serious photographers since we like to have fun as well and discuss photography as a hobby (along with critique...positive or negative)..



That is correct, caspertodd, by virtue of the fact that we are serious about our craft, even though we are at all levels of development, many of us are not interested in, nor do we have time for, the frivolity, and would like to concentrate more on our skills and the artistry and the improvement thereof. 

I am not looking for the arguments that seem to lead to the closing of threads and the banning of people.  I am only wishing to find photographic inspiration.  I don't know why you would want to get into this conversation.  There are plenty of places for you to go on this forum to find what you seek.  Remember, I concede that you are in the majority.


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## Miaow (May 15, 2008)

I think the thing with critique is that people sometimes have  differing opinions on things - for example one might think an improvement in colour could be needed others may not or it should be cropped differently etc....  I tend to now put in my opinion if I say something like that lol

In regards to fun areas on a site like this - I think we all need something of a break away from the 'serious' things.  As that saying says   _All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy_  - not saying it does make people dull of course LOL just that I think life's too serious sometimes and we all need a bit of light-hearted stuff


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

Before someone pops up to say that the OP can just ignore the threads or the forums that are too social, let me interject that the constant trend to social posts and useless comments just pervades every part of the site.

Look back at the many experienced posters who have left or don't post anymore (don't count ego explosions).  

Compare that to the relative  inexperience of the vast majority of new posters.

I don't post pictures here anymore because the average comment doesn't teach me or tell me anything and I get more for my effort at other places.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Miaow, I do not take issue with anyone wanting that.  Not at all.  There's plenty of room for that here, as I've said, that is the majority of the people. 

I don't want that, really.  I'm here only to improve my skills and my artistry.   And it turns out there are many here, although we are in the minority, who would like to stick to the basics of photography.  As you can see by Alpha's post, some don't even give real critiques anymore because that is not what the majority of the people want.  I started this thread because *some of us do*.

So please, Alpha and others, please show us the way to _A Better Critique_.


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## dEARlEADER (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> That is correct, caspertodd, by virtue of the fact that we are serious about our craft, even though we are at all levels of development, many of us are not interested in, nor do we have time for, the frivolity, and would like to concentrate more on our skills and the artistry and the improvement thereof.
> 
> I am not looking for the arguments that seem to lead to the closing of threads and the banning of people.  I am only wishing to find photographic inspiration.  I don't know why you would want to get into this conversation.  There are plenty of places for you to go on this forum to find what you seek.  Remember, I concede that you are in the majority.



You mention you are not looking for arguments... but you insult members of this forum by insinuating they are in a childrens playground...

You mention that you are a non-contributing member to other forums of higher intellect... but you blither a couple of hundred posts here in a month..

This forum is free... so .. you get what you pay for... there are many levels of photographers here that can assist in your development.... but carefully selected condescending words directed against the fraternity of this forum is no way to promote your agenda...

I'm uncertain of why you even took the time to write this post when you have found other Forums that better suit your taste.

You pretty much deserve any flaming you get here.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> You mention you are not looking for arguments... but you insult members of this forum by insinuating they are in a childrens playground...
> 
> You mention that you are a non-contributing member to other forums of higher intellect... but you blither a couple of hundred posts here in a month..
> 
> ...



There is nothing I could add that could indicate the attitude of many of the posters here better than the post above.

How appropriate to come from someone who declares his occupation as 'drunk.'  

Perhaps he is writing from work?


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> That is correct, caspertodd, by virtue of the fact that we are serious about our craft, even though we are at all levels of development, many of us are not interested in, nor do we have time for, the frivolity, and would like to concentrate more on our skills and the artistry and the improvement thereof.
> 
> I am not looking for the arguments that seem to lead to the closing of threads and the banning of people.  I am only wishing to find photographic inspiration.  I don't know why you would want to get into this conversation.  There are plenty of places for you to go on this forum to find what you seek.  Remember, I concede that you are in the majority.



Bull****.

As an artist, you don't have time for "frivolity" because you need to be serious?

This kind of thinking breeds lifeless art. You're looking for inspiration? The one limitless source of inspiration is the spontaneous human interaction around you.

EDIT: I'm sorry this post sounds harsh. I just very much resent the fact that people will look down on others for having a good time, and not being serious 24/7. caspertodd is not any less of a serious photographer for being social.


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## dEARlEADER (May 15, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> There is nothing I could add that could indicate the attitude of many of the posters here better than the post above.
> 
> How appropriate to come from someone who declares his occupation as 'drunk.'
> 
> Perhaps he is writing from work?




um...  yes.... and your point??


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> I'm uncertain of why you even took the time to write this post when you have found other Forums that better suit your taste.
> 
> You pretty much deserve any flaming you get here.



I am uncertain why you would want to place yourself firmly at odds with a small minority of serious photographers wishing to improve without the frivolity...or why you would post to this thread.  Did you read _all _the words?


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

Will you kids chill out already? 

Most people who know anything about anything here have become less inclined to give advice over time. In that respect the forum's body of knowledge has really gone down the tubes. As with most information on the internet, they've been replaced by people who talk a lot of talk but don't know much. 

When arrogant amateurs create a climate of uneasiness for people posting substantive critiques, then real critique ceases to flourish. It's not incumbent upon those willing to assist to provide it in the face of backlash. It's incumbent upon the learning to be humble.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

dEARlEADER said:


> EDIT: I'm sorry this post sounds harsh. I just very much resent the fact that people will look down on others for having a good time, and not being serious 24/7. caspertodd is not any less of a serious photographer for being social.



You're not sorry 8 posts into this forum.  You're not sorry because you already know you will be in the majority and you will eventually bully those of us wishing to engage in intelligent adult discourse about art.  And yes, we will eventually go away, but it will be your loss.  So I suggest to you, before you bring any more ugliness, that you move on to the other million threads that will be more to your liking.


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Will you kids chill out already?
> 
> Most people who know anything about anything here have become less inclined to give advice over time. In that respect the forum's body of knowledge has really gone down the tubes. As with most information on the internet, they've been replaced by people who talk a lot of talk but don't know much.
> 
> When arrogant amateurs create a climate of uneasiness for people posting substantive critiques, then real critique ceases to flourish. It's not incumbent upon those willing to assist to provide it in the face of backlash. It's incumbent upon the learning to be humble.



This is very reasonable, and I can appreciate this.

What I don't agree with is putting down other people for being social.


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> You're not sorry 8 posts into this forum.  You're not sorry because you already know you will be in the majority and you will eventually bully those of us wishing to engage in intelligent adult discourse about art.  And yes, we will eventually go away, but it will be your loss.  So I suggest to you, before you bring any more ugliness, that you move on to the other million threads that will be more to your liking.



I'm not sorry ANYMORE, because you don't deserve my apologies. But caspertodd and the other poster deserve yours.


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

dylj said:


> This is very reasonable, and I can appreciate this.
> 
> What I don't agree with is putting down other people for being social.



Being social has its place, and I agree it isn't always outside the context of critique. But I do think that too much overt socializing in critique threads is indeed a bad thing. If you were in front of a panel of professionals trying to get a critique and half of them broke out a cooler and started drinking Coronas, cracking jokes, and talking about their weekends, you'd probably find yourself rather upset.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

dylj said:


> This is very reasonable, and I can appreciate this.
> 
> What I don't agree with is putting down other people for being social.



The point being that the social aspects have almost completely diluted the photographic aspects.

Count the new posts and see what percentage are complete, redundant  questions.
Count the new posts and see how many are actual pictures rather than snaps.

If the mods would actually set an example rather than letting this just happen, there is some chance that this place won't lose all the decent photogs it has.

Considering the traffic this place has, it could be a great learning experience but it is mostly a child's playpen, only slightly beiter than Flickr.


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Being social has its place, and I agree it isn't always outside the context of critique. But I do think that too much overt socializing in critique threads is indeed a bad thing. If you were in front of a panel of professionals trying to get a critique and half of them broke out a cooler and starting drinking Coronas, cracking jokes, and talking about their weekends, you'd probably find yourself rather upset.



I completely agree. Being social has its place, and being serious has its place. Artists, I hope, won't err on either side.


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

dylj said:


> I completely agree. Being social has its place, and being serious has its place. Artists, I hope, won't err on either side.



They do have their places but social and serious are not on the same spectrum. On the continuum of liberal to conservative, independent is not in the middle. And on the continuum of moral to immoral, amoral is not in the middle. Similarly, I think the opposite end of "serious" is not "social." Social is something else altogether.


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> Count the new posts and see what percentage are complete, redundant questions.
> Count the new posts and see how many are actual pictures rather than snaps.
> 
> If the mods would actually set an example rather than letting this just happen, there is some chance that this place won't lose all the decent photogs it has.


 
1) The only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask - all this shows is that be have more beginners on site than there have been in the past

2) How would you like the mods to lead the way - lock or remove any thread with shots that are snaps and not photos?


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

Alpha said:


> They do have their places but social and serious are not on the same spectrum. On the continuum of liberal to conservative, independent is not in the middle. And on the continuum of moral to immoral, amoral is not in the middle. Similarly, I think the opposite end of "serious" is not "social." Social is something else altogether.



Oh Crap.  You've actually said something serious and smart, that requires thought.  You're going to get a bunch of sophomoric hand-waving about this one from people who think they understand.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

Alpha said:


> They do have their places but social and serious are not on the same spectrum. On the continuum of liberal to conservative, independent is not in the middle. And on the continuum of moral to immoral, amoral is not in the middle. Similarly, I think the opposite end of "serious" is not "social." Social is something else altogether.



You are correct. I suppose the right way to say what I was trying to get at is this: Be serious about your art. But don't take yourself too seriously, because that's when artists commit suicide.

Literary criticism is my background. Some critics are the funniest people I know, and they show it in their critiques. In the poetry and fiction workshops I have attended, the banter we get in the midst of our discussions is often the most enjoyable part of them. The social aspect of a community of artists is ESSENTIAL to their growth.


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## kundalini (May 15, 2008)

WOW, yet another potentially enlightening topic of discussion is on the brink of being flushed down the drain by egos and personalities.

I like to have as much fun and socializing as I have the desire to improve on my skills.  I agree that there is a time and place for both.  From all the comments above I can clearly see both sides of the same coin.  The 'debate / discussion' is partially fueled (IMO) because there is no real Critic's Corner.  Unless I post something in Just For Fun, I want honest critique on my photo.  But to be honest, I also post photos for the craic.  On those that I wish to be looked at seriously, I have rhino's hide and don't care for the 'attaboys'.  Other times, the 'attaboy' gives a good feeling and I hope my photo made someone smile that day.


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

dylj said:


> You are correct. I suppose the right way to say what I was trying to get at is this: Be serious about your art. But don't take yourself too seriously, because that's when artists commit suicide.
> 
> Literary criticism is my background. Some critics are the funniest people I know, and they show it in their critiques. In the poetry and fiction workshops I have attended, the banter we get in the midst of our discussions is often the most enjoyable part of them. The social aspect of a community of artists is ESSENTIAL to their growth.



I completely understand where you're coming from. But the wit and comic eloquence characterizing such writing is few and far between in most of the threads in question. _That_ I would love to see. But instead I see much more irrelevant banter than poignant humor.


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## dylj (May 15, 2008)

Alpha said:


> I completely understand where you're coming from. But the wit and comic eloquence characterizing such writing is few and far between in most of the threads in question. _That_ I would love to see. But instead I see much more irrelevant banter than poignant humor.



Well said!


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Well, okay then, The_Traveler, kundalini and Alpha, let's get back to the discussion of photographic skills and artistry and hopefully all of us (serious and non serious alike) will learn something.  My original question was, once we begin to achieve the technical aspects of any photograph, how can we critique art?  How can we fairly critique a subject we do not care for?  If we were juried, I'm sure all sitting in judgment would have different tolerances for the subject matter.  By what criteria is art judged do you think?


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> Well, okay then, The_Traveler, kundalini and Alpha, let's get back to the discussion of photographic skills and artistry and hopefully all of us (serious and non serious alike) will learn something.  My original question was, once we begin to achieve the technical aspects of any photograph, how can we critique art?  How can we fairly critique a subject we do not care for?  If we were juried, I'm sure all sitting in judgment would have different tolerances for the subject matter.  By what criteria is art judged do you think?



The single criterion by which we judge "art" is our personal aesthetic. It's different in subtle ways for everyone, and similar for a lot of people in the same ways. But in terms of "art," as judges we're always destined to come down on one side or another. Are you a Hemingway fan or a Fitzgerald fan?  There's only so much you can base such decisions on even the less technical aspects like subject matter and composition. The way I see it, if you cover your bases well, chances are someone will appreciate it as "art," even if not me. If you venture outside the norms of technicality then you're at the peril of your judges' personal aesthetics. But even if I don't dig it that's no fault of yours.


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## kundalini (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> How can we fairly critique a subject we do not care for?


Certainly we have grey matter that's functional. If you (I) open a post and don't care for the subject matter, there are two courses of action for me. 1) Hit the Back button on my browser. 2) Comment on an aspect of the photo that I feel my contribution may be of use to the OP. Let's say I don't like pictures of monkeys (I do btw...hilarious to me), that doesn't automatically disqualify my considerations. I still have the capability to comment on lighting, composition, DoF, etc. I realize the tog had limitations in which to take said photo, but that still leaves a whole gamut of aspects in which you can apply critique. Look at it as a portrait of an old man/woman. I have little experience with panning shots. I can still comment on if the overall feel of the shot works, if the subject is in sharp focus, if the colors pop. In my mind, it doesn't really matter what the subject is, I can still contribute 'something'. I may be far better with certain subjects, but ..... I hope I made my point.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Alpha, I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder (blah, blah, blah), but I would like to give a case in point as it is an image from one contributor on this thread (http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123182).  All decent images, I thought.  I use this example because DigiJay has requested critique in the thread for such (http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122391) and I believe he would like serious critique from others.  Pay special attention to his last image.  The wolf.  I would like to know what would make this an image of great artistry. Has he achieved it?  How do we know except by having others tell us?

  Kundalini, I know that we all have something to contribute, no doubt, but after the technical issues have been met, then what? (And for goodness sake dont mistake this for me thinking I have all technical issues accomplished on all my images-not.)  How can we begin to bring our images to the taking-your-breath away place?  Is this just luckall the time? If we've met and fulfilled the technical issues is it just up to the subject matter to determine the artistry?  Is any focused and well lit polar bear (whale, wolf, fill in the blank here) art? 

Also, how can those of us new to critique make ours better, more helpful?  Thanks for participating in this, inquiring minds want to know.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

These are the step I do in post processing/evaluating an image and how the steps fit in technical workflow.
Is the basic exposure, focus, dof good enough to make a good final image?  - *ACCEPT/REJECT*
 Do I need to reduce the noise? *NOISE REDUCTION* *on new layer*
 Are there hints at the correct horizontal or vertical that are contradicted by strong elements in the frame? *ROTATE*
 Is the object of interest placed well within the frame *CROP*
 Do I need to change the levels,contrast, hue or saturation globally? *ADJUSTMENT LAYER*
 What kind of global sharpening do I use? *NEW MERGED LAYER*
 Do I need to change the levels,contrast, hue or saturation on specific areas to improve the overall image? *ADJUSTMENTS ON DUP LAYER WITH LAYER MASKS*
 Is there a need for sharpening/desharpening specific areas? *NEW MERGED LAYERs/layer masks*
I often end with lots of layers, some of which I may throw away.

Most important of all, does the image have some meaning or impact that causes me to think or feel something that extends beyond the content of the frame.
This impact may overwhelm any technical deficiencies.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> This is the workflow I use when doing PP
> Is the basic exposure, focus, dof good enough to make a good final image?
> Do I need to reduce the noise?
> Are there hints at the correct horizontal or vertical that are contradicted by strong elements in the frame?
> ...




Ahhhh, this is what I'm talking about.  Thank you.  I knew there must be criteria that good critique must follow and, The_Traveler, I appreciate your critique.  The *most of all *above is what I'm trying to sort out. Quite helpful.


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

One Sister said:


> Ahhhh, this is what I'm talking about.  Thank you.  I knew there must be criteria that good critique must follow and, The_Traveler, I appreciate your critique.  The *most of all *above is what I'm trying to sort out. Quite helpful.



These aren't *the* steps, just what I do. 

When I set out to spend time on a critique of an image, I download it and try lots of these steps to look at what it could be potentially, before I say anything.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> These aren't *the* steps, just what I do.
> 
> When I set out to spend time on a critique of an image, I download it and try lots of these steps to look at what it could be potentially, before I say anything.



I think I understand.  I'm very interested in the post technical issues.  What determines the level of artistry?  I think you critiqued one of my images before and said "look at the impact of the image, if it makes me think of or feel something beyond the actual content of the frame"...  Sorry, it just hit me.  This is what I needed to understand.  When the student is ready a teacher will appear...


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## fightheheathens (May 15, 2008)

some people take them selves way to seriously.



and


poop.


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## Alpha (May 15, 2008)

This should be a simple task for a trained eye. 

1) Is the exposure correct? 
2) Is the composition interesting?
3) What (if any) is/are the subject(s)? Are they interesting?
4) Is the image sharp?
5) Is there good tone variation?
6) Is the depth of field interesting/appropriate?

To the end of each of these, add:
a) If not, does this detract from the quality of the photo? How much?
b) If not, was it intentional? And to what effect?

As far as I'm concerned, these are the fundamental questions you should first ask in any and all critique. Then you can start making more nuanced judgments of aesthetics, emotional appeal, etc.


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Alpha, would you mind speaking more about the "etc."?  Although, I appreciate your work flow, I'll be taking it under advisement as well as The_Traveler's, I'm particularly interested in the "nuanced judgments".   As much as you're willing to share about emotional appeal and aesthetics is particularly interesting to me.  Is any focused, well lit and cropped polar bear (whale, wolf, fill in the blank here) art?


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 15, 2008)

Overread said:


> But photography is art - thus part of art is the end result - its never going to please all, but if it does not then there is no reason not to say anything. You just have to do so in a polite manner.
> Also if you give the "wrong" technical advice I would expect others to suddenly appear and "correct" it - or to give thier views because chances are that even if its not your area you are making these assessments based on your understanding which might very well be the same thoughts that the photographer is thinking but not saying.
> 
> All in all I say say what you will and crit who and what you want - but in all cases speak (write) in a respectful manner and even if you hate a shot alwasy look for the good points in it -- there are very few shots which are all bad, most have a few good points which can be praised and then you can get on a say what and where the bad parts are



Here's the thing, in which a few have said it pretty bluntly and I said it in my first post-  Always consider the source.

If there's 500 newbs, every single one of them replys to your thread, what can you take away from that?  Are they newbs to photography?  Or to the forum?  Do they have ANY iota of a clue?

Its been pointed out that there's a lot of mediocre work being posted and to me, it's hard to critique mediocre work.  Like the other day, someone posted a picture.  Underexposed, in direct sunlight.  A little blown out whites.  Not a great expression on the subjects face.  

What do you say??  If they don't GET that as a reject photo from the get-go and felt it was worthy to post for a critique... I mean... I can't be bothered.  If you don't know that underexposed badly lit pictures are just BAD, then I dunno how to really help that properly. 
Its not to say that my sh*t doesn't stink, don't mistake what I'm saying.

However, in the example I mentioned, I actually DID reply to the poster and even attempted a conversion for them.

But overall... I think when basic stuff is totally ignored such as focus or exposure issues... its just hard to give any feedback at all.


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## skieur (May 15, 2008)

Because this forum takes critique less seriously than it did in the past and tends to be rather precipitate in closing down some discussions, I tend to take this forum less seriously and do not submit photos.  My photographic work is elsewhere and I am on the admin in a professional site.

I find it interesting that some characterize critique as "mean", "rude" "demeaning", "aggressive" and several other adjectives but then end off by saying that it is often "accurate".

The standards for critique can be found on most photography camera club, photography organization or several other sites including www.photoinf.com as an example.  They come basically from the elements of design that are part of any art curriculum taught in schools plus the contribution of technical technique and approaches to the overall quality of the image.  It is NOT rocket science.  Anyone TRULY interested in and committed to photography as either a hobby or a profession should know this and that includes moderators as well.

Even camera clubs composed of amateurs and a few professionals do not baby or molly coddle members whether they are new to photography or not.  Credibility is key.  A great photo is a great photo, but equally poor, weak shots are garbage.  Phony praise is counter productive, even if it is for the purpose of encouragement.  If you get too easily insulted, then you will never improve your ability to take photos.

Some amateurs want to ignore the standards that are part of photography and standards are part of any art or hobby and make the difference between quality work and garbage.  Any pro in the big leagues, is subject to the standards as they are applied by art directors in charge of accepting photos, articles, displays etc. for show or print.  Certainly any amateur can ignore these standards just as anyone can choose not to learn and improve in any hobby or profession.

As I indicated in a thread that was quickly locked, some people want to learn about photography and some people don't.  It is up to the moderators and site owner to determine which members are desired on THE PHOTOFORUM.

skieur


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

Excellent points.  Excellent web site with list of links.  Thank you.


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

> What do you say?? If they don't GET that as a reject photo from the get-go and felt it was worthy to post for a critique... I mean... I can't be bothered. If you don't know that underexposed badly lit pictures are just BAD, then I dunno how to really help that properly.
> Its not to say that my sh*t doesn't stink, don't mistake what I'm saying.


 
Thing is this;
here is one of my first early photos'






I posted this in another site long before I came to here - at the time I was proud that I had shot this photo and a part of me still is because I can see where I have gone right in it = however it was only (at the time) through the comments of others and through not only their comments, but advice and enthusiasm that I improved to where I am today. I still have a long way to go though.
Now some might say that I was "lazy" because I did not read all the books or research round photography as much some have and as much as I could have - and many people do this. They then post on forums - why? Because a forum is like a photography club. 
Were I a member of one at the time I would have shown the members of such a club and expected both some praise and also comments as to what is wrong and how to improve the next time I go out.

People keep saying this place has lost its standards and that it is becoming full of new people who are less than brilliant - that is not bad that is good. That means we have many who are willing to learn - and yes they will be posting "snaps" and bad photography which is where the more experienced should get up and start helping them - rather than complaining that we are not getting high quality material - that is not why I am here and I doubt its what the forum is based on. If you are after art and only the best then see the homepage of a pro or a darn good amature = for forums expect to come for help and don't begrudge those who also come seeking for it


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 15, 2008)

Ah see after re-reading what I wrote, I can see where your coming from.

Its not that I expect perfection from every post.  I'm just explaining how/why I may not reply to a post.  Again, I have posted bad work so trust me on how I'm not throwing stones at glass houses right now.

I'm not complaining really.  Like I said, in my example, I actually helped this girl out by taking my time to PS her work and then explain what I did.

Its just that I have seen this girl critiquing other works and then what do I think of that??  I mean.. after seeing her own work, how qualified is she to critique others/???

ITs sort of a no win situation at times.  So I don't know where the hell I"m going with this post.

Its great that there are beginners and its great that they have the balls to post and get feedback.  I'm REALLY not complaining about that as I fall into that category myself.

The thing of it all is though- how much feedback generated here is REALLY conductive??  I don't know.


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

There really is not "qualification" for critique - art is art and the longer you work or look at a certain feild the better you get at looking for the "right" things - but art (and beauty) is always in the eye of the beholder. Thus anyone can comment to a good degree - once you start getting into the technical advice though things get a little more black and white - but if someone makes a comment and you know its wrong don't be afraid to say so - to leave it for others or because its the 10th time to me is not right.
Its a never ending battle in a way, but by correcting you are not only helping the original poster but the person who made the error - but remember to address the person politly (this is where some people can make mistakes) attacking them is not the way and just degenerates into a flame war - which is not what is needed. Also I would take care to draw a line between fact and opinion - fact can be write or wrong, opinion (least with art) is less black and white


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 15, 2008)

You know what's hard?  When you see a post that has 10 replys of "I like that a lot!" attaboy stuff.. and your just like.. "really?"  

then your like ah, I just don't have the energy tonite to go at it with anyone.


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

But then things are easier - the person has already had confidance given to them by the others - all that remains is to be the nit picker and point out the flaws as you see them - granted some might think you are being over critical, but provided that you don't attack anyone elses views and a polite to the photographer whose shot you are commenting on then they have no real grounds. Some might complain and the photographer might also complain - I would not rise to such complaints any more than to say the truth == that it is your view and the you only intended to help -- ball is in thier court then to either accept or ignor - - and remember this is the internet even if they ignor there are many others who can benefit - but they can't if there is nothing said


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## The_Traveler (May 15, 2008)

Overread said:


> however it was only (at the time) through the comments of others and through not only their comments, but advice and enthusiasm that I improved to where I am today. I still have a long way to go though.
> 
> People keep saying this place has lost its standards and that it is becoming full of new people who are less than brilliant - that is not bad that is good. That means we have many who are willing to learn - and yes they will be posting "snaps" and bad photography which is where the more experienced should get up and start helping them - rather than complaining that we are not getting high quality material - that is not why I am here and I doubt its what the forum is based on. If you are after art and only the best then see the homepage of a pro or a darn good amature = for forums expect to come for help and don't begrudge those who also come seeking for it



I used to teach and I loved to get students who wanted to learn - like you.  I was lucky to be in a situation where most of the students wanted to learn, the administration agreed on the importance of learning. Students who screwed around were not thought to be cool and lousy teachers didn't get much attention or respect.

This is a different situation and I think that is what the OP was about. Because I love to teach and believe I have something to offer, I spend a fair amount of time searching out those posters who actually want to get better to help them improve where I am able. 

I have long since given up expecting that the administration agrees with me or cares about what I care about. 
I try to ignore the ***holes as much as possible but I refuse to take the slightest bit of crap. 
Being unpleasant to those who deserve it is my reward.


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## Overread (May 15, 2008)

The thing is this - the mods are not hear to enforce standards of photography or of politness on us but rather more to keep the peace - if you keep trying to fight and lash out all you look to outsiders is one and the same with the ones you are fighting. 
Some times you have to take insults from others - granted in real life you might not take an insult from a 14 year old - but this is the internet where such things matter not. Best ways to deal with it are to either report the post to a mod; answer back in a calm and focused manner without openly attacking the opposition to you or ignor the attack completly


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## KOrmechea (May 15, 2008)

I feel there are some things that need to be addressed here.  So, I'll do so.



One Sister said:


> Before I make that decision, *I am asking those educators, those knowledgeable photographers, how to give a good critique.*



From other posts you've made in the thread (and others), it seems to me you know how to give a good critique.  How do _you_ do it (I'm sure members of those other, less childish forums have taught you something...)?



Alpha said:


> Frankly, I've mostly stopped giving critiques because... b) I'm really quite insulted that someone would spent so little time learning their craft and their art and then even have the nerve to ask why their photo looks like ****.



People come here _to learn_.   How is refusing to share your seemingly superior knowledge conducive to that?  How is this attitude helping the situation of this forum? 



One Sister said:


> I am not looking for the arguments that seem to lead to the closing of threads and the banning of people. I am only wishing to find photographic inspiration. I don't know why you would want to get into this conversation.



When you post in a public forum, you're inviting people to reply to you.  All people.  You can say you don't want a certain argument, but your reactions to those who are giving it says otherwise.  From the get-go, your tone has been condescending.  When people share ideas that contrast your own, you tell them they have no place in this discussion.  Is there a problem with hearing the other side?  



The_Traveler said:


> If the mods would actually set an example rather than letting this just happen, there is some chance that this place won't lose all the decent photogs it has.



Decent photographers?  Are those the ones supporting the OP?  Because from what I've seen in this thread, many of them refuse to share their own work or to critique that of others.  How is that helping improve this forum? Why don't _you_ set an example (because clearly you have a lot of knowledge and experience to share)?  Why is change always up to a forum's moderating team?

There may be problems with this forum, but from what I've seen here those that are quick to point them out also refuse to help in their solutions.

Edit:

I apologize if this came across as a little mean, rude, sarcastic, targeted, or whatever.  Essentially, the whole point of the post is in the last sentence.


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## AndrewG (May 15, 2008)

The essence of critique on a forum such as this is very much a two-way street; if a picture is offered up for an honest appraisal then the photographer must be willing to accept criticism which may, upon first reading, appear harsh.
The observer, on the other hand, must be able to substantiate his critique in a positive way with suggestions for improvement-if necessary-so that the photographer can learn and advance his craft. If the photographer takes offense at an honest, informed and polite criticism then he should not have presented his work in the first place; defensiveness won't get you anywhere.
If someone says my picture is crap I want to know why so the next one won't be-vacuous platitudes are of no use to anyone and both encourage complacency and stifle knowledge and growth.


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## Don Kondra (May 15, 2008)

Thank you Andrew, well said..

Cheers, Don


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## One Sister (May 15, 2008)

KOrmechea said:


> You can say you don't want a certain argument, but your reactions to those who are giving it says otherwise.  From the get-go, your tone has been condescending.  When people share ideas that contrast your own, you tell them they have no place in this discussion.  Is there a problem with hearing the other side?



I beg your pardon, but I did _not _invite argument.  I only invited intelligent discourse. No one shared an idea different from my own, in fact the rudest of them hardly shared an idea at all. He became belligerent because I don't care to play games here.  I conceded to the majority and only cared to reach out to those who were serious about the craft.  I believe your remark smacked with a condescension that mine did not. If you think there is another "side" here, you are not understanding my point.  I only wanted to discuss photographic skills and artistry.  How can you have another side?

Andrew, I thank you for your comment and hope to benefit from your critique in the future.


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## manaheim (May 16, 2008)

Hm. I'm going to be pretty blunt here. I don't usually do that.

I actually find this thread pretty ridiculous, mainly because of some of the people posting on it and their postures. Frankly, I think there is a lot of self-ego stroking going on and people need to get over themselves.

However, I think the crux of the original question was a good one, and I take that to be... what the hell is up with this forum, the way people critique, etc.

If anyone gives a rats ass, here is my take:


I had been away from this forum for a while and have just returned a couple weeks back. I have noticed the following:
I've found that many of the folks I used to see here who posted stunning images that really almost made me embarrassed to be on this forum... all seem to be gone.
I've found that the usual level of painfully honest, but wonderfully helpful and constructive feedback I came to love has dropped drastically.
There really are _way_ too many "attaboys".
People have take civility to an extreme, saying "wonderful shot! nice colors!" on a pic that needs a _lot_ of help.
People posting pictures not really looking for an honest critique, but rather looking for some of the above.
The flip side of this, however, is this other element and that is the pomposity of certain people, several of which are posting in this thread... to me, this is just as bad. The "you suck, how dare you not know not to overexpose your pictures" is absolutely the most retarded perspective I have seen to date.

In my very firm opinion, we should all be here to share and to learn. Learn from critiques on your pictures... learn from critiques on pictures of others... and even learn from your own critiques _given_ to others.

What's more is that everyone sucks at something. I'm pretty damned good at commercial real estate photography, but I can't for the life of me take a picture of a beautiful landscape and have it be anything more than "meh". Does that mean when I post a boring landscape that I'm a stupid fricken noob who shouldn't be worthy of your commentary or respect... _just because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm asking for help to learn?_

F'in hell people... get over yourselves.

Of course, there's the flipside...

If someone rips into your picture and you get all upset, you are in the wrong place doing the wrong thing.  It's just as silly as the person who thinks you suck for daring to post it. If this describes you, you really shouldn't be posting your pictures. Show them to your mom and she'll think they're awesome and you can move on. Are you a stupid noob for feeling this way? No. You're probably just not ready for this kind of environment, and that's fine... but seriously stay out of it until you are.

And then there is civility... Do people really need to be civil? Well, yes in a way, but honestly... mostly no. I think outright flaming someone is pretty stupid, but I see no reason to pull any punches. Do you need to call my picture crap? Well, maybe not... but really, if it's that bad, maybe you should. Stroking my ego and telling me my picture is great when I cut off someone's head or have huge noise issues (cough) or whatever is not helping me any, nor is it helping anyone else who reads it, or this board in general. Be honest, be direct, and do your best to be patient with people as they grow... but the last one is less important than the other two, assuming you are here for the right reasons.

But here's the thing... no matter what you say on this forum, unless you are contributing something that someone can learn from, then you are just wasting everyone's time. That goes for the attaboys, and that goes for the "it sucks!" people. Try to think about why the image works for you or doesn't and give some feedback on that.


So... how, then, to give critique?
Tell it like it is, every time.
Be direct.
Be honest.
Be constructive.
Take the posture of a teacher... take it upon yourself to help others grow from your experience and insight.
Don't shy from bad images, tell people if they are bad.
For me, that's it.

Your mileage will not vary. Offer good in all 50 states.


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## caspertodd (May 16, 2008)

I do not honostely feel like I am capable of giving proper critique for most of these photos yet... give me a few months and I guarantee that I will be able to.  For now I give feedback (not critique) when I like someones photos enough to let them know.  Up until now I didn't know that bothered anyone.

One Sister, I am sorry if you feel like I'm being rude, I do not mean to be, just your comments came as an insult.  I am serious about photography, and want to learn everything I can, but it is also a hobby to me that I enjoy doing and have fun doing it (but am serious about it at the same time).  Yes, I like to join in on the Off Topic Chat too, and I keep that there, but that doesn't mean that I am not serious.  The title of each section of this forum says "for feedback and general critique".  Maybe there needs to be an entire section labeled "serious critique", not just a thread.  I would definitely look through the photos, but probably keep comments to myself unless I could offer suggestions on how to improve the photo, or tell you what you did right.


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## One Sister (May 16, 2008)

caspertodd, that's okay, you only made the mistake in thinking this was just another one of the very many threads where folks just jump in and make smilies without understanding a post made in earnest.

My remark referring to "the rudest of them" was not you.  This forum is chok-a-block with folks who want what you want.  I do not take issue with the majority because I am not a long time poster and I was not here when, as the older posters remember, people were more interested in the craft than in making friends on the internet.  I am only wondering if there is a place here for me.  I too desire to improve my skills and artistry in earnest, my process in doing so is different from others.  I do want the genuine critique and I want to learn how to give them as I feel my skills will improve.  If I spent more time doing that than...say...hanging with my friends in bars (not saying you are doing that, I'm just using this as an example)...then I will reach my goal faster.  That is not to say that you shouldn't do anything you want.  Your process may be different and it may work for you.  That's just mine.

Although manaheim said up front that he thought this thread was ridiculous, no matter, he made a very substantive post explaining his process.  That's what I'm talking about. Go back through this thread check out the links, look at PP processes posted...most enlightening...and bookmark http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122391 to check on how the more experienced of us execute (poor choice of words perhaps?) their critique.  It will make us better photographers.  By the way, I tried my hand at it recently and I could see that it was much appreciated...more so than another attaboy.  I was intimidated because I too do not think I know enough to give a proper one...but I tried with qualifications.  The OP was clearly appreciative and I learned something along the way...this is what I was talking about.

Other than the one contributor to this thread who really didn't take the time to understand my point (he just landed in this forum, didn't read much and hadn't a clue) this has been very interesting.  By the way, caspertodd, the people right here in this thread, the ones attracted by "The Art of Critique", those are the ones I suspect will help you and me improve.  We will learn to give a substantive critique because it doesn't take an expert photographer to give one, not to say that they aren't experts, just saying that you can give one too.  Watch them.  We will learn in our own ways in our own time.  My methods are different.  I've accomplished all the learning I need to accomplish on the playground.  For me, it's time to buckle down and study photography.  That's all I was trying to say.

Thanks for contributing.


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## Alpha (May 16, 2008)

KOrmechea said:


> People come here _to learn_.   How is refusing to share your seemingly superior knowledge conducive to that?  How is this attitude helping the situation of this forum?



My point is that there are many people here who invest little to no time in learning their craft and their art, and then come to the critique forums crying about their shots not turning out. At some point, giving assistance to these people is a complete waste of my time. Why is it incumbent upon me to teach them fundamental basics? I don't ask that everyone asking me for critique be a superb photographer. But I do ask that they spend some time and energy working to improve themselves. I find it quite rude that someone would, for example, fail at some technical aspect and ask _me_ for an explanation when it's something they could easily learn by visiting their local library, searching the internet, or taking a basic photo class. If you think that's too much to ask then I'm afraid I have nothing left to say to you.


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## Overread (May 16, 2008)

I have to say that I would on one side disagree with your view Alpha - remember that not only is the poster asking a question, but that there are many more (both members and non-members) who will be reading the forums for advice - so its not just the OP who might benefit from learning.
Also most people are not able to go to classes on photography and might not even be able to get to a photography club - that leaves the internet for advice and many a time when something is new they might either not know that they are doing something wrong or where in the shot they are going wrong - even if they read every bit of material.
I agree with you that it might be laze on their part to "expect" such advice, but I equally feel that it is a form of laze on the part of other photographers (not attacking you - a general statement to all) not to help others.


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## Alpha (May 16, 2008)

Overread said:


> I have to say that I would on one side disagree with your view Alpha - remember that not only is the poster asking a question, but that there are many more (both members and non-members) who will be reading the forums for advice - so its not just the OP who might benefit from learning.
> Also most people are not able to go to classes on photography and might not even be able to get to a photography club - that leaves the internet for advice and many a time when something is new they might either not know that they are doing something wrong or where in the shot they are going wrong - even if they read every bit of material.
> I agree with you that it might be laze on their part to "expect" such advice, but I equally feel that it is a form of laze on the part of other photographers (not attacking you - a general statement to all) not to help others.



With your 450+ posts, surely you've seen the sorts of critiques I'm referring to. I'll give you a theoretical example of some photo with the following problems:

Boring subject and unoriginal composition. Well over- or under-exposed. Great DOF when shallow ought to have been used or vice versa. Poor color balance in the case of color or poor tones in the case of b&w, etc etc.

First, these are things that anyone who's invested themselves should not have serious problems with.
Second, do you have any idea how long it would take for me to fairly and adequately explain how to remedy them all?


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## Overread (May 16, 2008)

Well firstly you might not have to write a whole book on each of hte points, but you could at least take the time to tell the person where the faults are?
That is at least showing them where their problems are and from there they can research around if they are keen enough - especially if others also take the time to say "yes the lighting is comming from the wrong angle". However I would consider it important to also take the time to point out where the person has done right (even if you think that they have hardly done anything worth mentioning right) as many will have just got thier camera, gone out and shot. That is where I started - no boring books or research, out with the camera and shooting. It was only later through the comments, crits and praise of others (pro praise that is, family and friends can often give "false" praise) that I have started to develope and also learn more. I have also started to research more into my topic.
This I think is a very different mindset to the way = perhapse - that you or people who take SLR traditional shots approached the hobby - where each shot cost - but this mindset is now the one of those with a digital - not really lazy but taking a different direction to the same learnings


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## manaheim (May 16, 2008)

Alpha said:


> My point is that there are many people here who invest little to no time in learning their craft and their art, and then come to the critique forums crying about their shots not turning out. At some point, giving assistance to these people is a complete waste of my time. Why is it incumbent upon me to teach them fundamental basics? I don't ask that everyone asking me for critique be a superb photographer. But I do ask that they spend some time and energy working to improve themselves. I find it quite rude that someone would, for example, fail at some technical aspect and ask _me_ for an explanation when it's something they could easily learn by visiting their local library, searching the internet, or taking a basic photo class. If you think that's too much to ask then I'm afraid I have nothing left to say to you.


 
Ah, I get it now.

This forum boils down to the following:

Anyone that posts an image for critique is actually saying "ALPHA!  I specifically demand that you, and you personally, tell me how to improve."

At which point, Alpha rears up his mighty head and roars "How dare you suck in my presence!?!?!?!"

God that clears up just SO much for me.


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## The_Traveler (May 16, 2008)

manaheim said:


> Ah, I get it now.
> 
> This forum boils down to the following:
> 
> ...



I will take my lead from your own signature about being honest and direct. Mannheim. What an amazing attitude.  You come onto the site every few months, decide what is right and wrong, toss around a few BS comments and then crown yourself as the arbiter of all that is right and true.  

When you have put in the amount of effort, time and skill as Alpha has, then your comments will have some validity.

Alpha has contributed ten times what you have, is being honest with you about how he feels and you respond by derogating him. You are just intellectually dishonest and your behaviour makes me extremely happy you are not here the vast amount of time.


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## Alpha (May 16, 2008)

manaheim said:


> Ah, I get it now.
> 
> This forum boils down to the following:
> 
> ...



No. They're not saying me specifically. But they _are_ asking someone...anyone...who knows what they're talking about to respond. And we're getting fewer and farther between.

My gripe is not with people sucking. My gripe is with people who, instead of trying to learn on their own and then coming with specific questions, expect unconditional assistance from people who have.


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## Alpha (May 16, 2008)

Overread said:


> Well firstly you might not have to write a whole book on each of hte points, but you could at least take the time to tell the person where the faults are?
> That is at least showing them where their problems are and from there they can research around if they are keen enough - especially if others also take the time to say "yes the lighting is comming from the wrong angle". However I would consider it important to also take the time to point out where the person has done right (even if you think that they have hardly done anything worth mentioning right) as many will have just got thier camera, gone out and shot. That is where I started - no boring books or research, out with the camera and shooting. It was only later through the comments, crits and praise of others (pro praise that is, family and friends can often give "false" praise) that I have started to develope and also learn more. I have also started to research more into my topic.
> This I think is a very different mindset to the way = perhapse - that you or people who take SLR traditional shots approached the hobby - where each shot cost - but this mindset is now the one of those with a digital - not really lazy but taking a different direction to the same learnings



Leaning on the changing face of photography as a crutch is no excuse for not being willing to take the time and learn on one's own. The internet does not obviate the use or need for hard work, practice, and other forms of study. And I'm sorry but there are few people I'll oblige who think it's fair practice to take their camera out of the box and then wait with open hands for personal instruction without so much as reading the manual.


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## Overread (May 16, 2008)

Alpha said:


> Leaning on the changing face of photography as a crutch is no excuse for not being willing to take the time and learn on one's own. The internet does not obviate the use or need for hard work, practice, and other forms of study. And I'm sorry but there are few people I'll oblige who think it's fair practice to take their camera out of the box and then wait with open hands for personal instruction without so much as reading the manual.


 

hmm I think we both have very different views - but to close for me I would like to know how you can tell - over the internet - how much effort a person has put into a shot? For me it is often hard to tell - true there are many who say
"Just got my DSLR and here are my shots" *posts 20 shots* "what do you think?"
Which might mean that they have done no work at all but spending the money and pressing the shutter button == and if the shots were less than good you might be lead to further think that. But it could be the case that they simply have not mentioned the 5 books and 10 websites that they read before and just did not cotten onto.
Some people can't learn from books, they need practice and comments to learn.


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## Alpha (May 16, 2008)

Overread said:


> hmm I think we both have very different views - but to close for me I would like to know how you can tell - over the internet - how much effort a person has put into a shot? For me it is often hard to tell - true there are many who say
> "Just got my DSLR and here are my shots" *posts 20 shots* "what do you think?"
> Which might mean that they have done no work at all but spending the money and pressing the shutter button == and if the shots were less than good you might be lead to further think that. But it could be the case that they simply have not mentioned the 5 books and 10 websites that they read before and just did not cotten onto.
> Some people can't learn from books, they need practice and comments to learn.



This is a much easier call than you're making it out to be. If your composition is poor AND your subject is uninteresting AND your exposure is wrong AND you used the wrong depth of field AND your post-processing is terrible or nonexistent, then chances are you haven't practiced or studied much. If you _have_ practiced a lot and studied a lot, and you _still_ make all of these fundamental errors, then your problem is in all likelihood beyond what I can help with, at least over the internet. I don't, in any way, represent all of the kind, learned souls on this board, of which there are about 5 or 10. If they think they can put out a house fire with a garden hose, that's their prerogative. But it's just not worth it to me.


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## manaheim (May 16, 2008)

The_Traveler said:


> I will take my lead from your own signature about being honest and direct. Mannheim. What an amazing attitude. You come onto the site every few months, decide what is right and wrong, toss around a few BS comments and then crown yourself as the arbiter of all that is right and true.
> 
> When you have put in the amount of effort, time and skill as Alpha has, then your comments will have some validity.
> 
> Alpha has contributed ten times what you have, is being honest with you about how he feels and you respond by derogating him. You are just intellectually dishonest and your behaviour makes me extremely happy you are not here the vast amount of time.


 
Every few months? I think you have me majorly confused with someone else. Esp since the bulk of my posts revolve entirely around peoples (and my) images, and to the best of my memory I have never commented on the actual goings-on in the forum in my life, but whatever.

I also don't quite understand how longevity gives you the right to basically call people morons, but whatever.  I also don't understand how my lack of longevity precludes me from expressing an opinion, but hey.. whatever! 

In truth, I was trying to be somewhat satiric to make a point. I think I did say before that it doesn't bug me a whit if someone tears into me, but whatever.

You know... like... whatever.


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## Early (May 17, 2008)

As a general rule, I wont critique a photo unless I would have an idea on how I would improve it for myself, personally.  Its only an opinion, and it doesnt mean I like it or dislike it.

PS I won't comment on a photo that doesn't do anything for me, so please don't ask if I like it.  For instance, I'm usually not into flower pics.  They have to be really well composed or well color co-ordinated.


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## Samriel (May 19, 2008)

This is a very interesting topic. Being basically both a forum and photography noob, I'll try to be as short and precise as possible. 

@ Art of Critique
The model Alpha posted seems good to me. I'd like to put it in a more general flow:
*Definition of purpose / intent* - What do you want to show with the photograph? I think everybody has some kind of idea (be it rational or emotional) when she/he takes a picture. This should be defined by the photographer in the post where the critique request was posted.
*Technical details* - How good was the machine used to achieve that purpose (DOF, exposure, post-processing etc.)
* Frame contents *- How were the objects in the frame used to achieve that purpose (composition, subject, lightning etc.)?
@Forum & Critique

First, please keep in mind that there are very few things I dislike more than elitarism (did I spell that correctly?). That been said, although this thread does at times smell of it, I have to say that I generally agree with the assessment that the critique on this forum is mostly very poor and not constructive. I've been here since December, and although I'd like to, I haven't posted a photo for critique yet. One of the main reasons is that I see bad photos get "Great shot!" critique. While this might encourage people to shoot more and get better, in the age where everyone has a digital camera and thinks his 3200ISO, 12MP, 18x zoom will give him great photos, just by pressing the shutter in Auto mode, it also encourages a lot of people to post everything they take without really giving it any though and get more "Great shot!"s. I'd rather have Alpha (or anybody else) tell me I suck, if he is in some way qualified to do so, that 100 unqualified people tell me I have a great shot. Of course, in a open forum like this, I do think this way of thinking might be mistaken, so I just don't post any photos, and don't demand such standards. I do completely agree with the honesty policy which Manahaim wrote - it may be harsh at times (although I think if you call yourself adult you should be able to cope with it), but it is the most efficient way. If it was a real class, you could judge if the person needs harsh critique or a gentler touch in order to improve, but on the internet the only think you can do is give the truth in a polite and civil package.


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## manaheim (May 19, 2008)

^^^ really well said, and I totally agree.  Nice post.


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## Battou (May 19, 2008)

Seriously guys, there are a deisent enough group of capable crits amung the forum, If you really want something put threw some serious crit work, Find some of them and get it done VIA PM and let the forum be a social gathering place for EGO stroking. I don't often expect any thing more than " I like", "Don't like" "too Noisy", "it's boring" and stuff like that in open forum. Some times I'll slap a "C&C" on a thread title and see what comes of it but if I want it done for real I will PM some one I know can do it theuroughly.


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## DWS (May 19, 2008)

it's hard to imagine another forum being added to the site, but perhaps a "technical only" for purely objective and constructive posting?.....there are times when I want to read serious comments only, and not have to sort through a series of flame posts


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## Alpha (May 19, 2008)

DWS said:


> it's hard to imagine another forum being added to the site, but perhaps a "technical only" for purely objective and constructive posting?.....there are times when I want to read serious comments only, and not have to sort through a series of flame posts



If it's okay with everyone, I'd like to nip this discussion in the bud. We've made several attempts at designing and redesigning critique sections of the forum, including the aforementioned "technical only" section. They've never worked out as planned, and to the best of my knowledge any plans for new critique sections are indefinitely on hold until further notice.


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## Hertz van Rental (May 19, 2008)

The system we have right now works fine.
If you want a crit, ask for one when you post a picture.
Just remember that crits come in two flavours - 'useful' and 'waste of space'.
You decide which one is which. If it helps you then it's useful. If it doesn't then ignore it.
Simple.
If you don't get anything useful or you don't get a response then you could try asking someone for one by PM.

Forums set up solely for the purpose of critique have either proved to be a lot of thankless hard work for the people in charge - or have ended up as a showcase for egos.
But nothing in this life is certain and who knows? One day another attempt might be made here


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## abraxas (May 19, 2008)

Most of us are in our underpants anyway. How can you take that serious?


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## Samriel (May 19, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Most of us are in our underpants anyway. How can you take that serious?



I don't think everybody expects to receive ultra-pro level critique here. I guess what people are looking for here is a not as much a mentorship, but rather a constructive comradship.
I think the only think to do it is try to critique (constructively) as much as one can, and hope people pick up the trend. In an open forum you can probably only lead by example.


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## DWS (May 19, 2008)

Samriel said:


> I think the only think to do it is try to critique (constructively) as much as one can, and hope people pick up the trend. In an open forum you can probably only lead by example.


 I'll agree with that.......and when someone flies off on a bashing, they get their knees lopped off....swiftly


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## rufus5150 (May 20, 2008)

To OneSister (from the OP):


> One type can be cranky, is always shooting from the hip, no holds barred, knee jerk, I like it or I hate it.


In rare situations, this can be quite useful, especially when someone posts a series of images. I know what you're referring to, but when someone says I like #8, it does at least direct the poster to say to themselves 'what is it about this photo that strikes people?'



> it does not help the OP in any way


I disagree. When you're dealing with many amateurs and hobbyists like this website is, encouragement can be a good device. Is it overused here sometimes with people being overly 'polite'? Yes, I would concur there. 



> perhaps it makes them feel better about their own work or even themselves


Or perhaps it is just being nice. That in and of itself should never be a bad thing.



> Sometimes the OP will be so sure of an images value and quality that it is posted not for critique but for the roar of the crowd, the one in their own head.


I do see this on occasion here, but it is limited to a few posters who post regularly. I see many new accounts (*checks post count* er, like I'm at all old, heh!) who seem to want the awe or aww on their first post. I did find it amusing as I went looking for other forums, the first post I cam across was a series of snapshots of someone horribly posed, with the question 'do I have what it takes to be pro?' (the repliers, btw, were less than kind). I don't think that the 'situation' -- if there is indeed one -- here is all that different from any other mostly free site.



> I want the objective critique one might receive if they were in a classroom situation.


You can get objective critique only insofar as technical issues are concerned. People can sometimes objectively relate any piece of art to a style, historical artworks, movements, etc, but an image which may drive thousands may not move someone who is viewing your picture on here. I've seen some technically brilliant photos here that do not so much as move me, and some that are technically all over the map, and not in a good way, that somehow draw me in to the story they're telling. So who do we throw out there? The person who has flubbed every technical detail imaginable but has yet managed to create something that inspires, or someone who has every technical facet down and, for all intents and purposes has created a masterful image that fails to move that particular viewer?

Art is funny like that. 



> *I am asking those educators, those knowledgeable photographers, how to give a good critique.*


On to the crux. The 'art' of a good critique, in and of itself, is first to not only explain the 'what' but the 'why'. Obviously, the technical issues can be fairly low-hanging fruit in this regard, but not always. Second, remember high school English and the dreaded 'Compare and Contrast'? This is where that comes in. If the work moves, look for the why in other pictures, other types of art. Look for how it appeals to the senses other than the visual. Can the smoke trail above the cigarette invoke the smell of burning tobacco to you? 

The single most important is to recognize the audience of your critique. If someone hands you a blurry picture that is a center-framed snapshot with blown out highlights, obviously, they're struggling. They need it phrased in a way they can understand it. They're not looking for an dissertation on all of their flaws, regardless of what they outright ask for (aforementioned 'am I ready to be pro' example is apropos here), they need to be guided on the ropes.

This leads to another important facet which is the ability to communicate everything above. A critique is meant to be read. If someone comes to me with a critique that I can barely discern the sentence structure, it's not going to help me much. If you begin to condescend, you've lost your reader and their work, however high or low quality, and you've wasted time with the critique. (Yes, we should all forgive spelling on the internet, though!)

The art of the critique is a dialog between the piece presented and its reaction, the author of the piece and the author of the critique. The goal of a critique is to further understand the piece and to further understand the piece in relation to other works. The critique seeks to discover the intent from the realized and to highlight how that was accomplished and how it fell short.

If you would like the best definition of a critique ever put on film, watch the end of Ratatouille where Anton Ego gives his critique of Gusteau's. Ignore for the moment it's a cartoon, and listen to what the script writer came up with. It's the most concise, telling thing I've heard on 'critique' in the last 10 years. It is really, in isolation, a beautiful piece of prose.

I shall therefore mention only in passing that I think the means you used to express your disdain ("children", "must have trouble navigating the world", etc) was truly a poor choice of attack when you'd made your point very clear earlier without name calling. The tone certainly prevented me from, in my limited sensibilities, replying any sooner than now.

To alpha:


> If people are posting images for critique in order to get a pat on the back, then they're posting for the wrong reason.


If you consider for a moment that, when someone comes here, what they see in general when feedback is requested, they may very well be posting for exactly that reason. It is only a more lofty position from which a statement like that can be made, and that, unfortunately, helps very few individuals who find themselves here.



> I often look at images posted for critique here and see a laundry list of problems, from poor exposure to unoriginal composition, poor attention to light and other environmental factors, and terrible post-processing. So it's often really very difficult to give an "encouraging" critique when there are so many wrong things that also need to be noted.


My advice would be to try for the biggest fish... in that particular image or in photography in general (or maybe that class of photograph) what is the first key element that must be present? Framing? Composition? Focus? With those not far along, you don't have to blast their entire photo, but zero in on one or two problems. "The focus in this is off which detracts from any statement being made. If you zero in and really nail the focus on the person  in the foreground, you'd be on your way to a much better photo." If you need to throw in something nice, try and find one thing about the photo that you can appreciate -- are there no blown highlights? Are the tones good in a certain area?

Not all photos (and I've seen a few here) have even 1 good quality. So make the critique short and simple. Focus on one key flaw, maybe two, and tell them, briefly, how it might be remedied. You might view a photo as a complete failure, but, if you're feeling constructive, you might try to nudge them a bit in the right direction and help them understand that they're on a path to 'doing things right'.



> If you study and you practice, and then you've got some real questions


The neat thing about the internet is the rapid pace of its feedback. And to a neophyte who may even have trouble making sense of their camera manual, this may be their practice. You cannot fault them for that. 

Also understand that many 'new' people, regardless of what they post, are readily unfamiliar with anything but a 'snapshot'. They're here to make those better. Maybe they can be inspired past that. I know that 8 months ago, I'd no idea what 'macro photography' was. I bought a DSLR and was horribly upset at the fact that I spent $1000 for a camera that didn't also record video (long story and lots of disposable income and an eager salesman). But if it weren't for a few people (elsewhere, not here) who took a look at my feeble attempts at snapshots and said 'this is what you might like to read, this is what you might look up on the internet, etc' that I decided to take full advantage of what this new camera might offer.

To The_Traveller:


> Count the new posts and see what percentage are complete, redundant  questions.


I've had, in the past few days, a good set of opportunities to use the 'search' function of these forums. I consider myself good at using such tools because, well, I've authored many similar ones before for databases, bulletin boards, data warehouses, etc. Frankly, if someone's new to these forums, the search feature can be a little... less than productive. And the older a forum gets, the more redundant questions are going to be asked. Let someone else handle them if they're becoming old hat or keep a list of links handy or... if you're feeling altruistic, write a good FAQ starting point for the, for lack of a better phrase, 'frequently asked questions'. 



> Count the new posts and see how many are actual pictures rather than snaps.


Here's a point the 'we are the critiquers' can really do a service -- identify these 'snaps' and don't just say 'that's a snapshot', 'that looks snapshottish' because early posters _don't know what that means_. And, now having ready many idiot's guides and dummy books as well as some more learned material, none of them defined what a 'snapshot' was compared to what an 'actual picture' is! 

I'd like to wrap this up neatly but I've already rambled on long enough. I think there is probably a nice middle ground between the 'atta boys', the attention whores, and the lofty Capital-A-for-Art people that these forums are closer to than anyone would like to admit. But as I'm new, I'll wait it out and see, and maybe I'll get an 'atta boy' when I most need it, and maybe I'll get a 'this is how you should improve' when I need it most. They both have their place.


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## Alpha (May 20, 2008)

rufus5150 said:


> To alpha:
> If you consider for a moment that, when someone comes here, what they see in general when feedback is requested, they may very well be posting for exactly that reason. It is only a more lofty position from which a statement like that can be made, and that, unfortunately, helps very few individuals who find themselves here.



They're often mutually exclusive. If you don't ask for critique then I generally won't bother. In that case it's fine if you want a pat on the back. If you ask for critique then I will critique. And you'll get a pat on the back if it's a great image. If not, you won't. I'm not talking about encouragement when I say "pat on the back." I'm talking about unqualified praise for bothering to trip the shutter.



> My advice would be to try for the biggest fish... in that particular image or in photography in general (or maybe that class of photograph) what is the first key element that must be present? Framing? Composition? Focus? With those not far along, you don't have to blast their entire photo, but zero in on one or two problems. "The focus in this is off which detracts from any statement being made. If you zero in and really nail the focus on the person  in the foreground, you'd be on your way to a much better photo." If you need to throw in something nice, try and find one thing about the photo that you can appreciate -- are there no blown highlights? Are the tones good in a certain area?



Which is not a critique. If you took your car to the shop and it was low on oil, had a blown fan belt, a leak in one of the tires, and a nice paint job, how useful would it be if they told you, "Nice paint job. Oh, and you've got a blown fan belt" ? Of course it's helpful to know about the fan belt, but you aren't going to bother topping off the oil and replacing the tire unless someone tells you or you bother checking them on your own. An incomplete critique is not much of a critique at all. Which leaves me at my original dilemma.



> Not all photos (and I've seen a few here) have even 1 good quality. So make the critique short and simple. Focus on one key flaw, maybe two, and tell them, briefly, how it might be remedied. You might view a photo as a complete failure, but, if you're feeling constructive, you might try to nudge them a bit in the right direction and help them understand that they're on a path to 'doing things right'.



If they've done everything wrong, it can be said without question that they are not on a path to doing things right. To claim otherwise is patently wrong in any logical sense.



> The neat thing about the internet is the rapid pace of its feedback. And to a neophyte who may even have trouble making sense of their camera manual, this may be their practice. You cannot fault them for that.



This forum is not a photography school. If other knowledgeable people want to assume the role of teachers, then that's their prerogative. But it isn't incumbent upon me to do the same. And I can and will fault people for trying to require it of me.


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## rufus5150 (May 21, 2008)

> Which is not a critique.



We'll have to agree to disagree on that.



> If you took your car to the shop and it was low on oil, had a blown fan belt, a leak in one of the tires, and a nice paint job, how useful would it be if they told you, "Nice paint job. Oh, and you've got a blown fan belt" ? Of course it's helpful to know about the fan belt, but you aren't going to bother topping off the oil and replacing the tire unless someone tells you or you bother checking them on your own. An incomplete critique is not much of a critique at all. Which leaves me at my original dilemma.



I think your analogy is fundamentally flawed. This isn't a driver bringing his automobile in for service, think of it more like a new mechanic and an old mechanic. The new mechanic is given charge of a vehicle with a number of problems. He comes to the older mechanic with a laundry list of problems with the vehicle and the older mechanic says 'fix the fan belt first, then come back and ask me about the next problem'.

Of course with where some people are in terms of their photography skills, they might not even know where the proverbial dip stick is (I have my guesses somedays...).

It's not a critique in the terms of Capital-C for Critique critique, but does someone who doesn't know how to focus properly really need a lecture on the various forms of the golden rule as applied to framing? (Not that it could be given or even understood.) I reiterate my point about the critique (and the critique-er) being aware of its (his or her) audience. But if you'd rather reserve your masterful brush of exquisite critique, then that's up to you. 



> If they've done everything wrong, it can be said without question that they are not on a path to doing things right.



Hence why they need the nudge. Of course everyone's first few pictures had everything correct with them... silly me.



> This forum is not a photography school.



Not entirely, but according to the FAQ (where the word 'educational' is used rather emphatically) and the fact there's a whole section devoted to 'assignments', one might get the impression that it might serve, in some way, to be a 'school' of sorts. 



> And I can and will fault people for trying to require it of me.



I'm not trying to require it of you. You said 'you cannot critique person X with their flawed photo' (paraphrased), I disagreed and showed you, though maybe it's not the money-shot of critiques, you can critique them in such a way it may be helpful to them. You don't have to do that, but you say you can't, and I disagree. But then again, you and I have very different opinions on what a 'critique' is.


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## manaheim (May 21, 2008)

Alpha said:


> This forum is not a photography school. If other knowledgeable people want to assume the role of teachers, then that's their prerogative. But it isn't incumbent upon me to do the same. And I can and will fault people for trying to require it of me.


 
Alpha, I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge about photography, but this perception of yours that people are requiring anything of you is kinda ridiculous.  No one is.  You don't want to comment or assist certain people or on certain images, then don't.

What's more is who are you to say what the forum is and isn't?  I'll admit I haven't read the FAQ in a while, but I do seem to recall that the forum is very much a place for people to help each other, share information and critique... not a school, per se, but certainly a place of learning... and that's ignoring the fact that the moderators and the community make up what any internet community is... and so far, this looks _very_ much like a place of learning and no one seems to be complaining about it except an isolated few who feel we are forcing you to be involved... which, as I said, no one is.


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## Alpha (May 21, 2008)

All I'm defending is my right to not be jumped all over. If that's too unreasonable a request then you guys are thoroughly confused.


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## manaheim (May 21, 2008)

Alpha said:


> All I'm defending is my right to not be jumped all over. If that's too unreasonable a request then you guys are thoroughly confused.


 
I, for one, will die for your right to not be jumped all over. 

Or at least for your right to ignore anyone who does it.


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## That One Guy (May 21, 2008)

abraxas said:


> Most of us are in our underpants anyway. How can you take that serious?



:hail:


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## skieur (May 26, 2008)

Alpha said:


> This is a much easier call than you're making it out to be. If your composition is poor AND your subject is uninteresting AND your exposure is wrong AND you used the wrong depth of field AND your post-processing is terrible or nonexistent, then chances are you haven't practiced or studied much. If you _have_ practiced a lot and studied a lot, and you _still_ make all of these fundamental errors, then your problem is in all likelihood beyond what I can help with, at least over the internet. I don't, in any way, represent all of the kind, learned souls on this board, of which there are about 5 or 10. If they think they can put out a house fire with a garden hose, that's their prerogative. But it's just not worth it to me.


 
I agree with Alpha.  Any experienced photographer is aware that you need to do your homework.  If you can't learn anything from books then you are illiterate and you are in the wrong field or hobby.  If you are big on experience then join a camera club and listen carefully to critique and advice.  There is really no excuse for ignorance of basic photographic procedures that can even be gained by reading the manual combined with the arrogance that "I am an artist and can ignore the rules and standards that produce a quality image."

skieur


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