# Sensor size & focal length question



## agp (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi guys, I've been watching quite a few different Youtube videos on various things about photography, and one thing that troubles me is sensor size & focal length. I know what both of those things are, but sometimes I hear things like "it's a 35mm focal length but if you factor in the crop/sensor size, it's actually a ##mm focal length". My question is - do different focal lengths produce different zoom/crop/size images when paired with different sensors, and how would you know if Xmm on Y sensor is the same as Zmm on W sensor?


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## Braineack (Mar 21, 2014)

I foresee a 5-10 page thread explaining this simple, yet highly misunderstood/stated topic.


Imagine you printed an 8x10 photo and wanted to frame it.

But you only have a 5x7 frame.

So instead of printing a new photo in the correct size, you crop the photo down in order to fit it in the frame.

Congratulations, you now understand the difference between Full Frame and Crop sensors.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

agp said:


> ....... My question is - do different focal lengths produce different zoom/crop/size images when paired with different sensors,........



The image projected by a given focal length is always the same size.  Lenses do not know what size sensor is behind them.




agp said:


> ....... and how would you know if Xmm on Y sensor is the same as Zmm on W sensor?



It's all math, so it can be calculated.

Click here to see if my explanation helps.




Braineack said:


> ..............Imagine you printed an 8x10 photo and wanted to frame it.
> 
> But you only have a 5x7 frame.
> 
> ...



What we really need is a Sticky Thread to refer everyone to when the topic comes up.

Keep in mind, taking a scissors or paper cutter to an 8x10 and cutting it down to 5x7 DOES NOT change the focal length of the lens used to take the image.  (I'm sure you know this, Braineack, this is for everyone's information).


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

A lens is a thing that makes a circle of focused light.
There is a reference (crop 1.0) size square you can draw in that light... That's the sensor and the portion of light that will be used to make your picture.

Smaller sensor = smaller portion of light. Crop factor tells you how much smaller a portion. 

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography

See also: 
Focal length - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Derrel (Mar 21, 2014)

Braineack said:


> *I foresee a 5-10 page thread explaining this simple, yet highly misunderstood/stated topic.*



Indeed.

FOV is usually stated as it relates to "135" or 24x36mm 35mm film pictures. TOday this is commonly referred to as full frame digital (Nikon calls it FX).

For crop-sensor cameras, multiply the ACTUAL focal length on the barrel by 1.5x for Nikon, Pentax, Sony, and 1.6x for Canon.

So, on a Canon 50D or 60D or 70D, a 50mm lens is 50 x 1.6= *80mm equivalent* focal length.


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## agp (Mar 21, 2014)

Okay so I get the idea between different sensor size. But how do you calculate those things? If I want to get the same image a 50mm on a full frame would get, what focal length would I use on a APS-C sensor?

I'm currently running a Fuji X-T1 (APS-C) with 23mm. This would be equivalent to using a 34.5mm on a full frame sensor?


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

You multiply the image sensor's crop factor by the focal length to determine what the "effective focal length" (in terms of what angle of view is visible) can be seen.

So 50mm on a FF sensor would, on an APC-S sensor (1.6 crop factor) would be 31.25mm.

(*note: though there's a "FF" or "35mm" standard for calibrating focal lengths in most of the interchangeable-lens market, this is not necessarily true with some other camera (say: a lens set designed for iPhones)


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

agp said:


> I'm currently running a Fuji X-T1 (APC-S) with 23mm. This would be equivalent to using a 34.5mm on a full frame sensor?


 Assuming a 1.5 crop factor, yes.


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## Braineack (Mar 21, 2014)

agp said:


> I'm currently running a Fuji X-T1 (APC-S) with 23mm. This would be equivalent to using a 34.5mm on a full frame sensor?



correct.  You need a longer lens on a FF, standing in the same physical location, to produce the same image as a crop-sensor since you capture so much more image in the frame.


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## agp (Mar 21, 2014)

Understood, thank you all for the information!


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## Designer (Mar 21, 2014)

There are multiple websites that address this issue, such as this one:

Compare camera sensor sizes: full frame 35mm, APS-C, 4/3, 1", 1/1.7", 1/2.5? | PhotoSeek.com | World travel photos, advice, best digital cameras reviewed

Please note: Even though both Canon and Nikon designate their sensors "APS-C", there is a slight difference in actual size between the two.

Now as to how to think of this:  The focal length  of a lens DOES NOT CHANGE, simply by placing it on a different camera.  So the ANGLE of capture (side-to-side) is THE SAME on different cameras.  

However, the area of the image that is captured by the sensor will change just because the sensor is a different size.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

What changes is the _apparent field of view_   between the two.  So if you were to take a full-frame and a  crop-sensor  camera, set them up side-by-side with, say, 50mm lenses on  both, and  looked through the viewfinders of them, this is what you  would see:










Neither camera-lens combination 'enlarges' or 'reduces' the apparent size of the subject.  The bridge and the flowers are _the exact same size_ in both VFs.  What is different is the _size of the focus screens_, which is in direct proportion to the _size of the respective sensors_.  This, in turn, changes the field of view (measured in degrees).


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

I know I've posted this before, but can't find it, so here it is again:

Let me try this angle:

The actual, physical size of the FX and DX sensors are different:








This is readily apparent if you look at an FX body next to a DX body, and can see the actual sensors when both are set to "Mirror Up for Cleaning":









So how does this translate into anything meaningful out in the 'real world'? Well, lets' pretend we're out there taking photos. And we come across this peaceful scene:










Now, an FX lens on an FX body has to project a large enough image to cover the larger FX sensor, so it will project an image into the camera that looks like this:








(Yeah, I know.... it's right-side-up. In reality, the image would be upside-down, but let's ignore that for the purpose here.)

The lens needs to create a large enough image to cover a sensor measuring 24x36mm (represented by the white rectangle):








So an FX lens/body will record the final image as:











Now let's take the same focal length lens, but only it's a DX-format lens. It will project a smaller circle:










Because it only needs to cover a sensor that measures 18x24mm:








So the same focal length lens, on a DX body, will record a final image as this:










Now, if we put the two final images (FX and DX) side by side, we end up with this:









Notice how the subjects in both images are exactly the same size? It's just that the DX sensor recorded a smaller portion of the scene because the sensor is physically smaller! This results in a narrower field of view.

So if you compare the sensor size:








with the above two images, you should be able to understand the 'crop sensor' effect on field of view.


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## Designer (Mar 21, 2014)

So you're saying that we should all get an FX camera?

(bookmarking)


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

Designer said:


> So you're saying that we should all get an FX camera?
> 
> (bookmarking)



Where did I even_ allude_ to that?


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

The other side of all this is that a not-full-frame lens lies about its focal length in order to remain consistent with honest full-frame lenses.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> The other side of all this is that a not-full-frame lens lies about its focal length in order to remain consistent with honest full-frame lenses.




Huh?


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## Braineack (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> The other side of all this is that a not-full-frame lens lies about its focal length in order to remain consistent with honest full-frame lenses.



clarify.


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

Think I'm wrong as I'm not dealing with changes in flange length. I am thinking solely in terms of AoV and how focal lengths are reported. 

While I understand the whole crop / full frame effects with a given lens, how lenses are measured in regards to circle of light vs flange distance vs AoV is still a little muddled. 

For example.



480sparky said:


>


Is the lens that makes the blue circle, and its smaller AoV, really the same mm as the lens that puts out the white circle and its wider AoV? Or is the mm listed as "equivalent to"?


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Think I'm wrong as I'm not dealing with changes in flange length. I am thinking solely in terms of AoV and how focal lengths are reported.
> 
> While I understand the whole crop / full frame effects with a given lens, how lenses are measured in regards to circle of light vs flange distance vs AoV is still a little muddled.
> 
> ...




Angle of view is a function of focal length AND sensor size.

Joe


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## Dao (Mar 21, 2014)

Personally, I do not think the 35mm equivalent means much unless you are going to use it for comparison, it is just a reference point.   It means a lot for someone who use 2 formats.   So the photographer know what to expect once he/she switch camera bodies with different format.   And different format (size) affects the Angle of View (or Field of view) only.  The focal length of the lens is the physical property of the lens so it stay the same with different recording medium/format. 

 OP, as a photography beginner, and if you only have one camera body, it is better to know what you will expect as far as field of view goes when you pair a lens (set with a particular focal length) with your camera.  Knowing what it may looks like in a different camera does not mean too much.


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## KmH (Mar 21, 2014)

480sparky said:


> The image projected by a given focal length is always the same size.


The projected image size is dependent on the design of the lens and the flange focal distance of the camera. Flange focal distance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Camera makers and 3rd party lens makers design some of their lenses so they project a reduced size image for use on crop sensor cameras.
By doing so the lens makers can produce lower cost lenses. Lens cost less to make and sell because the lens can be shorter and can use smaller diameter lens elements.

By the same token lens makers design lenses to project a larger image circle for medium and large format cameras.

In other words, you can have multiple 50 mm lenses, each for a different image sensor format that each project a different size image.

Canon designates their crop sensor lenses EF-S. Nikon designates their crop sensor lenses DX.


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

Ysarex said:


> Angle of view is a function of focal length AND sensor size.


If that were true: telescopes would not have AoVs. 

No. There is a fixed angle in the circle of light put out by the lens. While a sensor may or may not be placed to grab all of it, it's still fixed. A number above which no sensor can pass.


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

KmH said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > The image projected by a given focal length is always the same size.
> ...


 What determines the mm of the lens?

I've read the wiki page on it, but don't fully grok it.

Is it the AoV of the resulting circle? 

If mm and AoV are not dependent: two 50mm lenses could give different AoV circles? 
If the two *are* dependent, then an EF-S lens marked as 50mm is actually more than 50mm because the circle produced by it as a smaller AoV.

I'm not talking about the chunk pulled out by the sensor... the sensor doesn't affect the lens.


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## table1349 (Mar 21, 2014)

Lens Equation


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > Angle of view is a function of focal length AND sensor size.
> ...



Yes. Angle of VIEW is a common photo term that we use to specify what we'll record from a 360 degree circle when taking a photo. For example a 80mm lens on a Hasselblad camera has a 41 degree angle of view. That same lens on a 35mm camera has an angle of view 25 degrees.

Joe


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > 480sparky said:
> ...



The focal length of the lens is the distance from the lens nodal point to the film/sensor when the lens is focused at infinity. The lens focal length does not have a fixed relationship with the lens's projected image circle. Two lenses of the same focal length can project different image circles. However on the same camera they will have the same angle of view.

Joe


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

Ysarex said:


> JerryLove said:
> 
> 
> > Ysarex said:
> ...


 I don't see how that is possible (unless you are cropping, which is not what I'm discussing).

If I put an infinite piece of paper behind the lens, how many arc-seconds of the terrain in front of me would be visible on that paper?


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

Ysarex said:


> The focal length of the lens is the distance from the lens nodal point to the film/sensor when the lens is focused at infinity. The lens focal length does not have a fixed relationship with the lens's projected image circle. Two lenses of the same focal length can project different image circles. However on the same camera they will have the same angle of view.


 Since we can "free lens" on a camera, the flange length is not fixed to one number by the lens (if it were, "freelensing" would be impossible because of the new flange length). 

So since the length (50mm) is the distance from the nodal point (that is fixed?) to the sensor (which is not fixed), we cannot say that a lens is 50mm? We can only say that a lens is 50mm at a given distance from the sensor or film?


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > JerryLove said:
> ...



You used the term AoV (angle of view). I'm telling you how that term is commonly understood, defined and used by photographers. If you're discussing something else, use the right terminology for whatever that something else is.

Joe


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > The focal length of the lens is the distance from the lens nodal point to the film/sensor when the lens is focused at infinity. The lens focal length does not have a fixed relationship with the lens's projected image circle. Two lenses of the same focal length can project different image circles. However on the same camera they will have the same angle of view.
> ...



When you focus a lens on subjects progressively closer to the camera the lens moves away from the sensor whether you're freelensing or not. Focal length as inscribed on photographic lenses is the distance from the lens nodal point to the film/sensor when the lens is focused at infinity. That's true if the lens is physically mounted to the camera or not. It's true if you hold the lens and point it out the window and focus on a piece of paper in your other hand.

Joe


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

Ysarex said:


> JerryLove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What is the term that describes the number of arc-seconds (or similar measurements) of image from the front of the lens that is projected out the back of the same lens?

Does this value have a fixed relationship with focal length?


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> If I put an infinite piece of paper behind the lens, how many arc-seconds of the terrain in front of me would be visible on that paper?



That will depend on the design of the lens and not just it's focal length. Two lenses of the exact same focal length can yield two very different results in this case.

Joe


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## Braineack (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > JerryLove said:
> ...


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > JerryLove said:
> ...



It does not have a fixed relationship with focal length.

Joe

edit: You're talking about the projected image circle.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> So since the length (50mm) is the distance from the nodal point (that is fixed?) to the sensor (which is not fixed), we cannot say that a lens is 50mm? We can only say that a lens is 50mm at a given distance from the sensor or film?




That is not the way a lens is measured for focal length.

The focal length of a lens is the measurement between the lens to a point where the parallel light rays will converge.  As is happens, this just happens to be the same distance between the lens and sensor/film when the lens is focused at infinity.  When the lens is focused closer, it is moved further away from the sensor/film, but that does not change the focal length.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> What is the term that describes the number of arc-seconds (or similar measurements) of image from the front of the lens that is projected out the back of the same lens?.....



Field of view.  



JerryLove said:


> .....Does this value have a fixed relationship with focal length?



It does have a relationship with focal length, but only a part of a formula....  the third variable being the size of the sensor.  You can't just say "A 50mm lens has a xx° field of view" without knowing the size of sensor or film behind it.


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## Helen B (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> What is the term that describes the number of arc-seconds (or similar measurements) of image from the front of the lens that is projected out the back of the same lens?
> 
> Does this value have a fixed relationship with focal length?



You can call it the angle of coverage (angle of view being taken to mean the result of the combination of lens focal length and the film or sensor size), and you can also specify coverage as the diameter of the image circle. For example, you can say of a lens: "_It has a 75 degree angle of coverage at f22.  This results in an image circle of 189mm at f22_"

Typically the angle of coverage is the same for a particular lens type - the above is for the Apo-Symmar-L series of large format lenses from Schneider. They all have a 75 degree angle of coverage, but they are available in different focal lengths. Each focal length has the same angle of coverage (more-or-less) but different image circle diameters - the example above is for a 120 mm lens. The coverage is usually quoted for focus at infinity, and it may be quoted for different f-numbers. Macro lenses may have their coverage quoted for closer than infinity focus.


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## JerryLove (Mar 21, 2014)

480sparky said:


> It does have a relationship with focal length, but only a part of a formula....  the third variable being the size of the sensor.  You can't just say "A 50mm lens has a xx° field of view" without knowing the size of sensor or film behind it.


 This is logically impossible. The number of arc-seconds of view out the back of a lens is independent of observer (sensor size). The sensor size might tell you how much of that circle you can actually capture, but it is not part of the lens measurement.

But I'm obviously lacking the language to describe what's inside my head (and, conversely, I've seen three different answers to one question). 

mm does not tell you what would be circumscribed by a lens (both circles in the picture are properly 50mm even though they have different percentages of the outside visible)... which I suppose is where I was going to begin with.


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> This is logically impossible. The number of arc-seconds of view out the back of a lens is independent of observer (sensor size). The sensor size might tell you how much of that circle you can actually capture, but it is not part of the lens measurement.



If it's 'logically impossible', explain why a given lens on an FX camera has a different FOV than the same lens on a DX body.

I'm sure the Big Manufacturers would be interested to know this.


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## table1349 (Mar 21, 2014)

Come on boys and girls, keep it going, only 2 more pages to go to reach the magic number 5.  :lmao:


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## 480sparky (Mar 21, 2014)

gryphonslair99 said:


> Come on boys and girls, keep it going, only 2 more pages to go to reach the magic number 5.  :lmao:




BACON!


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## snowbear (Mar 21, 2014)

480sparky said:


> BACON!



and beer.


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## snowbear (Mar 21, 2014)

snowbear said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > BACON!
> ...



and kitties.


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## Designer (Mar 21, 2014)

I'll bump.  What am I bumping?


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## Ysarex (Mar 21, 2014)

JerryLove said:


> But I'm obviously lacking the language to describe what's inside my head (and, conversely, I've seen three different answers to one question).



Read Helen's post again. You're talking about the projected cone of light coming off the back of the lens. That is not a function of focal length but is a function of the lens design type. Focal length is pragmatically related because with the lens in focus that cone of light will project a circle at the film/sensor plane of a given diameter. If the diagonal of the film/sensor doesn't fit inside that circle you've got a problem or a permanent instagram filter.

The focal length determines at what distance the lens will be from the film/sensor when the lens is focused. One focus distance is unique and particularly important: infinity. At that focus distance the lens will be closest to the film/sensor and the projected circle will be the smallest. The film needs to fit inside the circle at that point.

As the lens is focused on closer and closer subjects it moves away from the film/sensor and so the diameter of the circle at the film plane increases. The angle of that cone of light is staying constant. Think of a flashlight pointed at a wall and start backing up -- the projection circle gets larger while the angle of the cone of light stays the same.

The spread or angle of the cone of light projected from the back of the lens is not the lens's focal length and is not a factor in calculating field of view or angle of view. Those values are used to determine how much of the 360 degree world in front of you the lens is going to record and they require the film/sensor size to make that determination.

We can use lenses on cameras such that the projected circle from the lens at the film/sensor plane is much larger than needed to cover the film/sensor. Once the film/sensor is selected, it's size along with the focal length will determine the angle of view.

Joe


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&#1608;&#1581;&#1601;&#1592; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1579;&#1575;&#1579; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1606;&#1586;&#1604; &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1589;&#1585;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;&#1585; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1591;&#1576;&#1582; &#1581;&#1604;  &#1575;&#1585;&#1578;&#1601;&#1575;&#1593; &#1601;&#1575;&#1578;&#1608;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610;&#1575;&#1607; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1586;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1593;&#1586;&#1604; &#1605;&#1575;&#1574;&#1610; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1579;&#1575;&#1579; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601;  &#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1585;&#1610;&#1607;&#1575;&#1578; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578; 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&#1575;&#1604;&#1603;&#1578;&#1585;&#1608;&#1606;&#1610;&#1575; &#1578;&#1607;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576;  &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1605;&#1575;&#1605;&#1575;&#1578; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1591;&#1575;&#1576;&#1582; &#1605;&#1603;&#1575;&#1601;&#1581;&#1577;  &#1581;&#1588;&#1585;&#1575;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1601;&#1585;&#1575;&#1588; &#1603;&#1588;&#1601;  &#1578;&#1587;&#1585;&#1576;&#1575;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610;&#1575;&#1607; &#1576;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1578;&#1603;&#1587;&#1610;&#1585; &#1603;&#1588;&#1601; &#1578;&#1587;&#1585;&#1576;&#1575;&#1578;  &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610;&#1575;&#1607; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1578;&#1582;&#1586;&#1610;&#1606; &#1593;&#1601;&#1588; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; &#1606;&#1602;&#1604; &#1575;&#1579;&#1575;&#1579;  &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1601;&#1604;&#1604;  &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1578;&#1582;&#1586;&#1610;&#1606; &#1593;&#1601;&#1588; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1606;&#1602;&#1604; &#1593;&#1601;&#1588; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1608;&#1575;&#1580;&#1607;&#1575;&#1578; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1606;&#1592;&#1575;&#1601;&#1577; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1588;&#1602;&#1602;  &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; &#1578;&#1606;&#1592;&#1610;&#1601; &#1576;&#1610;&#1608;&#1578;  &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577;  &#1580;&#1604;&#1610; &#1576;&#1604;&#1575;&#1591; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1590; &#1588;&#1585;&#1603;&#1577; 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length in order to remain consistent with honest  full-frame lenses.                         ​


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## 480sparky (Apr 6, 2014)

midomidi2013 said:


> The other side of all this is that a not-full-frame lens lies  about its focal length in order to remain consistent with honest  full-frame lenses.​




Oh, do tell.  Us uneducated peons want to know.


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