# Issue with current setup



## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

*Hey y'all ! I was hoping that someone would so kindly ( or unkindly..... I'll be appreciative for either or) would give me advise on what lighting setup would be ideal for my situation. **
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*I just recently purchased my very first flash kit ( sb700 , 28" Westcott Apollo orb softbox ). I basically started out  photographing newborns and children in "natural light" (aka I didn't understand and had no idea what I was doing with artificial light) until this point.*
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*Although im far from and expert using this type setup, ive taught myself a lot with feathering the light and really liked the consistency  of the newborn images that I've been getting.  *
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*A few weeks ago i ran into a huge problem using this same lighting setup while photographing a "smash cake" (1st birthday) . Only every 3rd or 4th image came out ok and the rest were so over exposed that they were beyond saving.  I realized that this was due to the recycle time of the flash and while thats not an issue with a sleeping newborn, its a HUGE issue with a 1 year old smashing into his/her cake for the first time... *
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*I photographed a sweet girl in a super dark basement and also had trouble getting the camera to focus because there was no light what so ever! To make a long story long,  I would love some advise on what equipment or other lighting setup would be best this type situation ( zero ambient light using contiuious shots in a super dark room that your own eye can hardly SEE your subject). I thought by turning on the overhead flourecent light it would be somewhat benificial ( just to actually be able to see what I was doing) but I still ran into the focus and underexposing issue? *
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*I realize I have sooooo much more to learn but I am bound and determined into figuring it out*
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*The two images posted are from recent sessions. The cute little girl with the cake was shot using only natural light. I would love to have a lighting setup ( and know how to use it) with these type sessions when ambient light is not an option.

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## 12sndsgood (Jun 7, 2013)

There are people here way more experienced then me. but a couple things you could try is first your iso. if need be bump your iso up. now instead of having to have your flash at full power and taking 4-5 seconds to recharge, maybe your now able to say run the flash at 1/4 power and have a 1 second recharge time. this will also keep you from overheating your flash etc.   I'm going to guess that you had to much flash power and so your first shot was way overexposed and then you took a 2nd and 3rd shot while the flash was recharging so as you shot you were getting less and less flash power which was bringing the power down more where you needed it.

another thing you can do is bring a flashlight to your shoot so you can shine on your subject to get the focus. once the focus is attained you can flip to manual to take the shot.  Don't really know how well this would work with babies. guess im wondering why your taking shots in totally dark rooms, just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. possibly tripping on something not seeing what your doing etc. i'd just try and shoot in better lit areas.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

Normally I would recommend an external battery pack ... it would give you faster recycle time, less heat in the flash, etc... but the SB700 does not have the jack for an external pack like the SB900 / 910 does.  Using a higher ISO ( I assume you were using TTL?) will reduce needed flash output and also give faster recycle times.

Exif does not show flash on either of these images...

As far as focus goes, do you have the focus light turned off on your camera? If so, turn it on.. it will help. Your Flash will also have an IR focus helper.. you need to be utilizing that. Read your manuals on how to use it. I have also used an external focus light... LED, with a 53 degree spread (no hot spots like a normal flashlight). It gives a Spotlight effect in some images, rather interesting.. like the subject is on stage. This is the light in question (I rubber band it to my flash or lens)  Tovatec by Intova Mini Wide Angle 220 Lumens LED Torch (white balance is a little off, but not bad.. easily corrected)

On the overexposure, how were  you metering? What settings?  Post an iimage with exif intact.. can't see what went wrong without that info.


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## sm4him (Jun 7, 2013)

I really can't help with the lighting issues, sorry.  But I just can't help but ask:

WHY were you doing a photo shoot of a "sweet girl" in a dark basement where you could barely even see?? That seems extremely incongruous to me.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

sm4him said:


> I really can't help with the lighting issues, sorry.  But I just can't help but ask:
> 
> WHY were you doing a photo shoot of a "sweet girl" in a dark basement where you could barely even see?? That seems extremely incongruous to me.



happens all the time... ambient light birthday shoots with only the candles providing light. They don't provide much... lol!


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

sm4him said:
			
		

> I really can't help with the lighting issues, sorry.  But I just can't help but ask:
> 
> WHY were you doing a photo shoot of a "sweet girl" in a dark basement where you could barely even see?? That seems extremely incongruous to me.



It was by far my choice to take the pictures in the basement. There were several people running around in the house and mom asked that we go to the basement away from the chaos.... This situation isnt exactly common but i would love to be prepared for the worst


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## sm4him (Jun 7, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> sm4him said:
> 
> 
> > I really can't help with the lighting issues, sorry.  But I just can't help but ask:
> ...



But in a BASEMENT?? I did a lot of odd stuff with my kids, but I never had their birthday parties in the basement. 

OP: Sorry, I'm really not trying to be rude or anything, and it really doesn't matter as far as your lighting issues. I just truly never heard of having a kids' party in a dark basement before!


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## sm4him (Jun 7, 2013)

rachelrach11 said:


> sm4him said:
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> 
> 
> ...



Ah, okay. So the PARTY wasn't being held in the basement. Now it makes a little more sense. Thanks, and sorry for taking your thread off on a tangent.


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Normally I would recommend an external battery pack ... it would give you faster recycle time, less heat in the flash, etc... but the SB700 does not have the jack for an external pack like the SB900 / 910 does.  Using a higher ISO ( I assume you were using TTL?) will reduce needed flash output and also give faster recycle times.
> 
> Exif does not show flash on either of these images...
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the advise! I was using spot focus. I didnt use flash on these two images. I just hoped by posting that it would somewhat give an example of the type of setup that I like to use. 

I'm actually away from my computer at the moment but will gladly post the info when I return in hopes that it'll help shed some light on the situation


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

12sndsgood said:
			
		

> There are people here way more experienced then me. but a couple things you could try is first your iso. if need be bump your iso up. now instead of having to have your flash at full power and taking 4-5 seconds to recharge, maybe your now able to say run the flash at 1/4 power and have a 1 second recharge time. this will also keep you from overheating your flash etc.   I'm going to guess that you had to much flash power and so your first shot was way overexposed and then you took a 2nd and 3rd shot while the flash was recharging so as you shot you were getting less and less flash power which was bringing the power down more where you needed it.
> 
> another thing you can do is bring a flashlight to your shoot so you can shine on your subject to get the focus. once the focus is attained you can flip to manual to take the shot.  Don't really know how well this would work with babies. guess im wondering why your taking shots in totally dark rooms, just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. possibly tripping on something not seeing what your doing etc. i'd just try and shoot in better lit areas.



Thanks so much for the advise!!!! I would have every place lite up like a Christmas tree if it were up to me This was the first time that i was directed into a dungeon


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

rachelrach11 said:


> cgipson1 said:
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What METERING system were you using... as that can affect flash exposure significantly. If there is a huge dark background, and you are using a wide matrix type metering, it will see all that dark, and factor it into the exposure.... and your foreground / subject gets fried! If you were using spot metering.. and meter on the subject, that should have been more accurate (assuming the spot was on the subject). Nikons work well with that.. especially at 100 to 400 ISO... sometimes higher ISOs need some EC...


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

sm4him said:
			
		

> Ah, okay. So the PARTY wasn't being held in the basement. Now it makes a little more sense. Thanks, and sorry for taking your thread off on a tangent.



No your fine! I just appreciate your input!! It probably doesn't help that I'm not the best on explaining things


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> What METERING system were you using... as that can affect flash exposure significantly. If there is a huge dark background, and you are using a wide matrix type metering, it will see all that dark, and factor it into the exposure.... and your foreground / subject gets fried! If you were using spot metering.. and meter on the subject, that should have been more accurate (assuming the spot was on the subject). Nikons work well with that.. especially at 100 to 400 ISO... sometimes higher ISOs need some EC...



So sorry for the typo. Yes , i used spot metering with single focus


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## Atavar (Jun 7, 2013)

Please take this as from someone who really doesn't know.  My information is rather second hand and anecdotal, but I have been told that flash photography can be damaging to newborn eyes and brains.  One doctor a decade ago told me it had something to with retina's that are still forming and iris's that tend to stay open more than they need to.  This is really more of a request by me for education from someone who is working in the field (you) than a hack (me) instructing anyone.  When my kids were new the pediatrician strongly advised steady indirect light for photography, he told me in no uncertain terms no blinking light and no point sources of light.  This might be a an interesting topic in it's own right, maybe I should start a new thread in open forum instead of hijacking this one.


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 7, 2013)

I know there have been posts talking about this and things debunking this but I couldn't for the life of me point you towards them.


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

Atavar said:


> Please take this as from someone who really doesn't know.  My information is rather second hand and anecdotal, but I have been told that flash photography can be damaging to newborn eyes and brains.  One doctor a decade ago told me it had something to with retina's that are still forming and iris's that tend to stay open more than they need to.  This is really more of a request by me for education from someone who is working in the field (you) than a hack (me) instructing anyone.  When my kids were new the pediatrician strongly advised steady indirect light for photography, he told me in no uncertain terms no blinking light and no point sources of light.  This might be a an interesting topic in it's own right, maybe I should start a new thread in open forum instead of hijacking this one.



These are actual medical sources... They say NO, that is incorrect information!

infant flash photo - Eye Care - MedHelp

Can a camera flash harm an infant's vision? - Aetna InteliHealth: Featuring Harvard Medical School's Consumer Health Information - Aetna InteliHealth: Featuring Harvard Medical School's Consumer Health Information | Aetna InteliHealth

Do camera flash lights harm the child's eyes? » DoctorNDTV Queries


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

Running into that type of situation made me curious about lighting setups in enclosed ( no windows and such)  studios. We currently use half of our garage for storage and such and transforming it into a small studio has crossed my mind a time or two. It would be very enclosed with just a single teeny tiny window. 

In these types of settings would you use a general overhead light ( to actually see in the room and not have to feel your way around) and if so, would you want to use a fancy bulb (that doesn't come from Walmart) to minimize crazy color cast? And would using monolights be more beneficial than my speedlight due to monolights having faster recycling time and also includes a modeling light?


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

rachelrach11 said:


> Running into that type of situation made me curious about lighting setups in enclosed ( no windows and such)  studios. We currently use half of our garage for storage and such and transforming it into a small studio has crossed my mind a time or two. It would be very enclosed with just a single teeny tiny window.
> 
> In these types of settings would you use a general overhead light ( to actually see in the room and not have to feel your way around) and if so, would you want to use a fancy bulb (that doesn't come from Walmart) to minimize crazy color cast? And would using monolights be more beneficial than my speedlight due to monolights having faster recycling time and also includes a modeling light?



You would need a good ambient light source (better than tripping over things) as daylight balanced as possible / and diffused preferred! Monolights have many advantages over speedlights just in the power, range of modifiers available, and ease of use (not to mention you can buy decent monolights for less than the average OEM flash)


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> You would need a good ambient light source (better than tripping over things) as daylight balanced as possible / and diffused preferred! Monolights have many advantages over speedlights just in the power, range of modifiers available, and ease of use (not to mention you can buy decent monolights for less than the average OEM flash)



Thanks so much for being so helpful! Your advice is greatly appreciated !! What would be my best option for a good ambient light source in this type of situation.... For example, would i benefit by remodeling a bit and adding windows or can you get somewhat of the same effect of diffused light artificially?


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

GOOD QUALITY daylight-balanced, dimmable fluorescent fixtures with good diffuser panels would be your best bed.  Definitely NOT your cheapest however.  If you have decent lighting equipment, the ambient really doesn't matter all that much, except in so far as you want enough to focus and not trip over things.  That's easy to overpower with studio lights.


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## Derrel (Jun 7, 2013)

Some 'oddness' here. Youi said every third or fourth photo came out okay, and the remainder were OVER-exposed??? That is exactly opposite of what I would expect from a flash that was not recylcling fast enough, unless your camera was setting an ambient light exposure that was causing long shutter speeds.

You did not mention the most-critical technical elements: what camera and lens were in use? A slow lens, like an 18-55mm might have been at f/5.6; when used on a consumer-level camera, like a D5100 or something like that (Canon Rebel XX,etcx), f/5.6 is sometimes the bare minimum amout of light for the AF system to work--and that goes more than doubly so if the basement was as dark as you stated. In BRIGHT sunny conditions, many lower-end autofocus modules will focus when the lens is an effective f/5.6 aperture; but add a teleconverter, or Neutral Density filter or polarizer, and the same identical camera might have tremendous difficulty focusing rapidly, or reliably. 

Anyway...SINGLE-point autofocus in dim lighting is often not as good as multi-point AF is. Why? LESS data. ONE point of data. If that one, single point is on say, smooth skin at close range, the target is in effect, to a computer, a "low-contrast target". In marginal conditions, low-contrast targets can be very difficult for AF systems to lock onto. However, if say you used a small number of clustered AF points, and also were aiming at a child's face from close range, a smart, modern, color-aware, distance-aware Nikon's AF system, combined with its metering system, can note the eyeballs, note the dark color, run the computer simulations stored in memory (compiled from tens of thousands of actual photographs and decades of Nikon know-how), and the AF system can get a lock with very little effort, shot after shot. single-point AF can at times, hobble a lower-end AF system very badly.

I'll say it again: using SINGLE-point AF with a slow lens, in dim light, with a consumer or prosumer Nikon, is not a good strategy when you need to focus FAST, and reliably. Use a small cluster of AF point, with most modern Nikons. Again, the AF module has specific capabilities, and there are ways to leverage the strength of the tools. In dim light, ANY help can often be enough. Using ONE AF point in dim light is throwing away a huge amount of capability.

Light: I usually use Nikon's "fifth battery" on the SB 800; it's a special door to the battery compartment. It fits in place of the normal door; adding that fifth AA-cell REALLY speeds up the flash recycle. But, when I need to shoot FAST, I like a small studio power pack, set to LOW power. I get one-second recycle times. As many shots as needed. If you want to simulate the adorable pinbk backdrop cake smash shot with a flash setup, you need a large modifier that "mimics" that kind of light. If it is LARGE, and set up at 10 feet, then there is almost no falloff from lkeft to right on the set, so the kid can move or crawl, and the f/stop will stay pretty constant across the posing area. MY suggestion? A LARGE 72x72 inch, white panel with two studio flash heads aimed through it, and another similar panel, or a wall, on the opposite side. If you do not have a panel, use a white wall to bounce the flashes off of. Use wide-angle reflectors to give a good bounce coverage, and make sure to use a good lens hood, and better yet, block off the lens with a go-between sheet of foam-board or other device. What you are looking for is a "north light studio" effect. You need to step up to studio flash: One Speedotron flash head with its 250 Watt quartz modeling light would have made the shoot a huge success on exposure, speed, and focusing.

Speedlights have big limitations. You just found that out the hard way.


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

Derrel said:
			
		

> Some 'oddness' here. Youi said every third or fourth photo came out okay, and the remainder were OVER-exposed??? That is exactly opposite of what I would expect from a flash that was not recylcling ast enough, unless your camera was setting an ambient light exposure that was causing long shutter speeds.
> 
> You did not mention the most-critical technical elements: what camera and lens were in use? A slow lens, like an 18-55mm might have been at f/5.6; when used on a consumer-level camera, like a D5100 or something like that (Canon Rebel XX,etcx), f/5.6 is sometimes the bare minimum amout of light for the AF system to work--and that goes more than doubly so if the basement was as dark as you stated. In BRIGHT sunny conditions, many lower-end autofocus modules will focus when the lens is an effective f/5.6 aperture; but add a teleconverter, or Neutral Density filter or polarizwer, and the same identical camera might have tremendous difficulty focusing rapidly, or reliably.
> 
> ...



Oh my! I have absolutely no idea why I typed "overexposed"   I guess trying to multitask by asking for advise all while dealing with a grouchy little one year old girl makes my brain bad  But yes, they were completely underexposed and very inconsistent. I would have one image slightly overexposed and it would dwindle down ( way down ) from there. 

You are always such a slew of helpful information and I appreciate so so much!!!!


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## Derrel (Jun 7, 2013)

You know, I would be tempted if I were you, to just buy a 400 Watt-second monolight, and build myself a 72x72 inch white-fabric reflector/diffuser frame out of PVC pipe, and learn to shoot using "natural flash" just bounced off of that one big panel, set up in the garage or in clients' homes.


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

Derrel said:
			
		

> You know, I would be tempted if I were you, to just buy a 400 Watt-second monolight, and build myself a 72x72 inch white-fabric reflector/diffuser frame out of PVC pipe, and learn to shoot using "natural flash" just bounced off of that one big panel, set up in the garage or in clients' homes.



That's such a great idea ! Ironically, I'm a huge fan of DIY projects that involve PVC pipe. So much that if you see the inside of my jeep when I'm on my way to photograph a newborn,  you would probably think I was a plumber. 

I've actually done a similar technique using my sb700 and the white side of a 40"x60" pop up reflector. It actually worked pretty good!!


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## Derrel (Jun 7, 2013)

Okay, so you know how a 40x40 works; that's a modifier that's 40x40= 1,600 square inches in area. A 72x72 inches = 5,184 square inches. Obviously, the 40x40 will work well with a speedlight. A 72x72 panel can be used with one, or even two flashes behind or in front of it...it's a really old-school tool. Two, smaller, 42x72 panels can also be clipped together, to make it FREE-STANDING, with just a slight V-angle...

Seriously...if you like that window-light look, then "scrim lighting", or "panel lighting" would be something for you to look into. It is the single most-versatile type of light modifier. Much,much,much more-adaptable than any softbox or umbrella or any other type of device. You can control the degree of diffusion and specularity of the light. I hope you will search for some videos on scrim lighting. You can shoot through panels, or use them as giant bounce reflectors. 

Again, think about two, 42x72 reflectors, so that you do not 100% "need" a pair of light stands, but can instead make them free-standing. It's less gear to pack and carry. With the right grip accessories, panels can be mounted overhead (elevated), and angled, but again, if you like that North Light studio effect, you want to move up to a much larger panel size, and probably at minimum, two speedlights, but better yet would be studio flash units (monolights or pack and head). Studio flash heads and their reflectors and barn doors would really be helpful for you. (sorry that's not the clearest of writing there in that paragraph...)


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## rachelrach11 (Jun 7, 2013)

Derrel said:
			
		

> Okay, so you know how a 40x40 works; that's a modifier that's 40x40= 1,600 square inches in area. A 72x72 inches = 5,184 square inches. Obviously, the 40x40 will work well with a speedlight. A 72x72 panel can be used with one, or even two flashes behind or in front of it...it's a really old-school tool. Two, smaller, 42x72 panels can also be clipped together, to make it FREE-STANDING, with just a slight V-angle...
> 
> Seriously...if you like that window-light look, then "scrim lighting", or "panel lighting" would be something for you to look into. It is the single most-versatile type of light modifier. Much,much,much more-adaptable than any softbox or umbrella or any other type of device. You can control the degree of diffusion and specularity of the light. I hope you will search for some videos on scrim lighting. You can shoot through panels, or use them as giant bounce reflectors.
> 
> Again, think about two, 42x72 reflectors, so that you do not 100% "need" a pair of light stands, but can instead make them free-standing. It's less gear to pack and carry. With the right grip accessories, panels can be mounted overhead (elevated), and angled, but again, if you like that North Light studio effect, you want to move up to a much larger panel size, and probably at minimum, two speedlights, but better yet would be studio flash units (monolights or pack and head). Studio flash heads and their reflectors and barn doors would really be helpful for you. (sorry that's not the clearest of writing there in that paragraph...)



That sounds like something that I will definitely try! You sir are one of the reasons I frequent this forum

I've had my eye on possibly ordering something along the lines of a AB400 (alien bee). Would this be something that you would recommend? Thanks again for all your help ! I almost feel like I should have to pay someone for all this awesome advise


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## Mike_E (Jun 7, 2013)

Hi Rachel, it sounds to me as though you are in need of a flash meter.

The one on your camera isn't much help when trying to get exposure right with a flash/strobe light.

As you've guessed by now you (most likely) were out shooting your flash- iow not letting it recycle.

You get around this by either raising your ISO and lowering the power output of your flash or getting a bigger light.

You can do the DYI thing or use a 4'x6' 5in1 or you could get a 150ws monolight to use with the Apollo in tight spaces.  I don't know if I'd go with 400ws as that's a little much to control in smallish spaces, if you're not careful you'll get light spilling everywhere and strong enough to be a nuisance.

Another thing you might consider is a 5'x7' pop-up background in B&W.  I have a 4x6 and the 5x7 and they are easily clamped together using hand clamps to make a free standing reflector.  Another good thing about the pop-up background aside from just having a mobile background is that you can use the black side for subtractive lighting (if you aren't familiar with subtractive lighting google it for more complete info than I can type here).

Good luck


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