# Number of shots



## Syco (Jan 12, 2011)

Question deleted.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 12, 2011)

First step is to know what the range is. Then you will be able to detemine the minimum number of shots needed to fill that range.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 12, 2011)

Syco said:


> This is a technical question.  Under what conditions would you elect to take more shots over a given dynamic range than fewer shots?  For example, when would you elect a -2,-1,0,+1,+2 series over a -2,0,+2 series?  What do you get when you parse the range into smaller pieces?



I have read you question. You seem to continue to be fixed in your mind that a range starts and ends with the numeral 2 plus and or minus. What is the range??? Is it always plus or minus 2 -OR- is it this:

With a Fixed Apeture: If the darkest area in a scene is 1/4 and the lightest is 1/125 what is the range? How many stops do you need to shoot? 

Start there. 

Then, you will know what the EV spacing should be.


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## ann (Jan 12, 2011)

Since Syco has taken his thread and disappeared I am going to take a stab at what may be the question or the heart of the question (remember , this is just a quess)

If we take a group of exposures i.e. -2 -1 0 +1 +2, why take 1/3rd as a -2 exposure will cover everything from normal to -2.etc. If one believes that too  many exposures degrades the image this may not be wise.

Again, I am not sure what he means, but it is an interesting question and certainly deserves some testing.  When the weather  clears up i will run some test on the same subject, using my usual 1/3 stops until the range is covered . vs the method he is asking about and see what happens.

The people I have studied with always said "one can't be too thin, too rich or take to many exposures", however, does that mean we use them all?  In the past i have elemented similar exposures that didn't provide additional information for no particular reason other than keep down the file sizes and it didn't make sense.

I think we may be thinking too literally that from -2 to +2 is always the range as that is the example, and we are thinking what about 20 stop range. 

Communication is so tricky even in person, let alone with the writtern word, as few people write well. (myself included.)


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 12, 2011)

Ok Ann, let's see if I can get it down on paper:mrgreen:

Using the 1/4 and 125th SS range, that is after metering the darkest and lightest areas of a scene and knowing what that shutter speed range is then this is what I know I need to cover:

1/4
1/8
1/15
1/30
1/60
1/125

That's 6 stops. Add 0EV for a total of a 7 exposures at a 1EV gap.


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## Bynx (Jan 12, 2011)

Ive thought of this a few times. My camera has 36 clicks to get me from 1/1000 sec. to 4 seconds. Each click is 1/3 fstop equivalent. This means the mid point of the 36 clicks is 1/15 second. If I adjust the ISO and fstop to allow 1/15 second to be the 0 image then I have maximum latitude to allow for over and under exposures as needed to the lighting conditions. The 1/15 would be adjusted according to whether its a brighter or darker image overall. Like the difference shooting in a church as opposed to shooting in a snowy field on a sunny day. To get to the number of shots I take I pay attention to the darkest areas when overexposing and the highlights when underexposing.


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## ann (Jan 12, 2011)

I was just trying to figure out the op frustrations and question. Not doubting your methods.
i tend to use 1/3 stops and what ever the range is determines how many i end up with.

And with your example, yes, 1stop changes up and down the scale.


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 12, 2011)

Gotcha. I cannot tie into what the Op was trying to say, he seemed rooted with a +/- 2 range no matter what the lightness and darkness range was supposed to be as it was irrelevant to him; I think he never participated in evaluating it. That was my take away and perhaps why the DR was off in the photo of a few days ago.


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## myshkin (Jan 15, 2011)

So did this op just delete all his posts and leave? 

I thought he was a HDR noob but everywhere I see him post he is telling people they are wrong and how they can do HDR.


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## ann (Jan 15, 2011)

hard to say, he took his football and went home


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## lyonsroar (Jan 15, 2011)

ann said:


> hard to say, he took his football and went home


 ...weenie...


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 15, 2011)

Syco seemed to think a three shot exposure scanerio was the one.  He got PO'd and suggested  I was "poking" him when I queried the question of IF the EV's all with 2's were right. 

I don't wish to intimidate any other person any more than any one other person does, yet I don't find credible info comes with anyone who insists on biased or limited information comes along. Learning from others and sharing information comes from checking egos at the door...IMHO.


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## WesternGuy (Jan 16, 2011)

I have read through this discussion and it is unfortunate the OP took off, but after reading the responses and discussion, it left me wondering if one of the reasons some of us maybe "stuck" in this "+2, 0, -2" frame of mind, particularly when we are just starting out, is because that is what a lot of DSLRs are setup, or can be setup to do - easily. I know there are ways around it, but I, for one, still have not taken the time or trouble to figure out what these are - maybe when the weather warms up a bit :mrgreen: ...

Cheers,

WesternGuy


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## myshkin (Jan 16, 2011)

I find -2,0,+2 is good for a lot of situations. I understand alot of cameras have this limitation of 3 exps. When I had the D80 I would take 3 brackets and then change the shutter speed and take 3 more to give me 6. You just need to do a little math in your head and make the second bracket over or under depending on the scene and your first bracket


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 16, 2011)

WesternGuy said:


> I have read through this discussion and it is unfortunate the OP took off, but after reading the responses and discussion, it left me wondering if one of the reasons some of us maybe "stuck" in this "+2, 0, -2" frame of mind, particularly when we are just starting out, is because that is what a lot of DSLRs are setup, or can be setup to do - easily. I know there are ways around it, but I, for one, still have not taken the time or trouble to figure out what these are - maybe when the weather warms up a bit :mrgreen: ...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> WesternGuy



This is one of the limitations of some cameras, my 7D included. There are DSLR's that can bracket more than three shots, however I can shift my three shot bracket and manipulate it, but its still not more than a three shot bracket.

Photography is a thinking person's game, even for those serious shooters who elect to take photos with a P&S pocket camera when it makes sense.

Studying HDR is an even more expanded thinking and I find it to be quite challenging. While my 7D has an EV range of -5 and +5 my approach to determining what the EV range should be is very much like when I use lighting and when I meter for that set up. 

In other words I 'guess' where I want to start and I meter to know where I am at. I adjust to get my set up where I want it; in fact where it needs to be so the technical aspect of the lighting is right. I use my histogram as part of that set up work. I make any adjustments necessary, I test again and then I am set to go.

Similarly, I don't perceive HDR as a Point and Shoot -2 and +2 range. I know that an HDR will be produced with a 3 shot range of -2 and +2, but will it be the right range?  Will it be the range that creates a stunning HDR? 

That's the breakdown of challenging what seems to me to have become a sort of a HDR rule. Shoot a three shot -2 and +2 range, pass the shots through software and voila you have HDR. How hard can it be.


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## WesternGuy (Jan 16, 2011)

GeorgieGirl, you have raised some interesting points and I must say that I do agree, particularly with the last bit about _challenging what seems to me to have become a sort of a HDR rule. Shoot a three shot -2 and +2 range, pass the shots through software and voila you have HDR._

I think that sometimes we get locked into the thinking where "when all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail".  I know I am guilty of this.  You have given me and, I hope, others, something to think about as we all move forward in our understanding and learning about HDR and using it in our day-to-day photographic life.  I would refer folks that are interested to look at some of Brian Matiash's work as an example of what, in my opinion, is great HDR imagery (one of many I am sure).  His portfolio can be found here...

My Portfolio | Brian Matiash PhotoBlog

I would encourage others to post references to HDR portfolios with which they are impressed or want to share with the rest of us.  Now I don't want to turn this into a post of posts, if you know what I mean, but if anyone does find an interesting portfolio of what they feel is good HDR, then a brief mention is, in my opinion, more than appropriate for us noobies at this stuff - good examples always give us something to aim for.  I will qualify this by saying that there are also excellent examples posted in this forum, which is one of the reasons I joined in the first place...I also enjoy the discussions as well. :thumbup: 

Cheers,

WesternGuy


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## GeorgieGirl (Jan 16, 2011)

Western Guy, that sure is some nice work, some very nice work indeed. Thanks for pointing me to it. :thumbup:


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## WesternGuy (Jan 18, 2011)

GeorgieGirl, you are very welcome. I often go and look at some of his work, when I need to feel humble by comparison  . Right now our weather and road conditions preclude much travel and photography (long story that includes things like avalanches across the TransCanada and too much snow in general - closed roads and all that..., but over the next few days, things are expected to warm up, so I shall see if I can go out again and try my hand at some winter scenes...I may just have to bite the bullet and head for one of our local parks, rather than trying to get out into the mountains, or at least the foothills where there is some decent scenery. 

Here is another one that I just discovered tonight, maybe you already know about it, but here it is... HDR Spotting - Gallery of HDR Photos and Community of HDR Photographers


Regards,

WesternGuy

P.S.  Can someone point me to the guidelines for posting images on this forum or any other forum on TPF - Thanks.


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## sixdaemonbag (Jan 18, 2011)

Ok, This may be an ignorant question, but after reading through the thread I'm wondering how many folks use the built-in bracketing routine in their camera anyway? Mine can do it, but I think I've used it exactly once, and I wasn't happy with the results.

The caveat here is that I rarely do HDR on anything that isn't static so I have time to manually adjust my stops, where the camera will do it faster automagically.

Thanks.


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## ann (Jan 18, 2011)

many times i do use the AEB mode, but i can do up to 9 stops. 

by the way, brian Matisch is doing several free webinair for ONone this month.
If you haven't seen how we uses various software after the merging of the exposures it is amazing and much more than involve than some might image.

You can go to their site and sign up for a variety of sessions.  I have no financial connect with ONONE, altho, i do use their software from time to time and enjoy  watching Brian work and think.


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## OrionsByte (Jan 18, 2011)

I honestly haven't researched HDR much, though I've attempted it once or twice.  I think what the OP was asking (as far as I can tell from what was quoted) was, what is the difference between taking 3 shots that cover the tonal range, and taking 6 or 9 or more shots that cover the total range.

Let's say I have a scene I want to capture as an HDR, so I put my camera in Av and spot metering mode, and determine that I'll need a shutter speed of 1/8 for the darkest areas I want to capture, and 1/125 for the brightest parts.  That's a 4-stop range.  So what's the difference between taking 3 shots 2 stops apart (1/8, 1/32, and 1/125) and taking 5 shots 1 stop apart (1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, and 1/125)?

How do the results change with more exposures in between the opposite extremes?

I may have to do some experimenting and research.


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## WesternGuy (Jan 19, 2011)

ann said:


> many times i do use the AEB mode, but i can do up to 9 stops.
> 
> by the way, brian Matisch is doing several free webinair for ONone this month.
> If you haven't seen how we uses various software after the merging of the exposures it is amazing and much more than involve than some might image.
> ...


 
Thanks Ann.  He is doing some of his architecture and "urban grunge" stuff... for anyone who hasn't seen them they are well worth watching - 
IMHO.  

For those who are interested, the January schedule for onOne webinars can be found here...Webinars - onOne Software  check the ones in blue for those by Brian Matiash...unfortunately, the February calendar is not up yet, but if you are interested, then keep coming to the site and hopefully it will come up soon.  Like Ann, I have no financial connection with onOne, but I do use their software from time to time and I really enjoy watching the work that Brian Matiash does - it provides a definite inspiration for me.

Cheers,

WesternGuy


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