# beginner question on chemicals



## naptime (Dec 7, 2011)

my daughter and I are about to get started with film photography.

we are also going to process at home.

ordering arista kit from freestyle. 

what's a good forgiving set of chems from freestyle for b&w film? 

does it matter? 
liquid or powder?


also......

I have read ilfords PDF on processing. And another site's method. And watched several different YouTube videos....

one thing has me concerned...

one place says dump the developer down the drain, but save the fixer and the stop wash.
one place says save the developer, fixer, and stop wash.
and yet another says save the fixer and stop wash, but that you have to turn the developer in to a local lab.

several places mention a stop wash. And a few say a stop wash isn't necessary, just plain water.

even another site says to use a few drops of dishsoap  in your final rinse water. 



ahhhhhhhhh .calgon  take me away !


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## Ysarex (Dec 7, 2011)

Powder weighs less and is less expensive to ship.

Liquid developer is easier to prepare. Fixer either way. You don't need stop bath, just use a couple water rinses. For right now I'd say a small bottle of Ilford liquid developer and powder for the fix.

Disposal is an issue because what you're doing is toxic.

Dump the developer down the drain along with rinse water, don't save it. Keep it off your hands. If you do get developer on your hands rinse with vinegar and then water.

After the developer immediately rinse film with two or three quick water changes then add fixer.

You can save the fixer and use it again until it's expired. You can test fixer by dropping in a snip off the end of a film roll. It should clear in the standard fix time.

Once the fixer is expired you have to dispose of it. It will contain silver in solution -- heavy metal poising is a very bad thing for you and the environment. You're using very small amounts but there's still the principle here. Don't pour that into my river.

So find a local lab somewhere (maybe college) that runs silver recovery on fixer and when you've saved up a gallon take the trouble to drop it off. Thank you.

If you want to avoid water spots as the film dries you can put a drop or two of detergent into a final rinse.

Joe


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## ann (Dec 7, 2011)

many use water rinse instead of a stop bath, and that will work, using stop bath isn't expensive and it works faster. It can also be kept for continued use.  If you get one that has an indicator it will turn purple when it can no longer do it's job.

LPN is a wetting agent that used with distill water is a very good method after the water rinse. It avoids water spotting which is impossible to remove after the fact.

I see you indicate you have read Ilford's directions. Their water rinse is a great way to conserve water.

For film development, I would recommend HC110, and use it as a one shot developer. Don't mix the whole syrup , just 1/2 oz. and enough water to make a 16 oz solution. It has a very long shelve life if not all mixed at one time.  It is a bit tricky , as it is like honey, very thick and the measuring device needs careful cleaning to be sure all the "syrup" goes into the final amount.


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## compur (Dec 7, 2011)

This may seem like nitpicking to some but I always recommend that newbies first follow the mfr's instructions when using their products.  For example, if the mfr recommends using a stop bath then I recommend using one.

It's often true that a water bath can be substituted for a stop bath (and may even be an improvement) but what is usually omitted from this advice is that doing this results in an increase of effective development time, which in turn affects the image to a certain extent. If you do this you really should make appropriate time compensation. But, this adds complexity, something a newby doesn't need so it should be something dealt with later, after he/she has had more experience. 

Admittedly, this alone won't make a huge difference in the results but when one starts getting into the habit of ignoring the basics, they do add up and _will _show up in the results sooner or later. Then the newby gets the impression that he "did it right but it gave bad results" and gives up.  But, the truth is, if he got bad results then he/she didn't do it right at all. The times were off, the temps were off, the chems were poorly mixed, etc. , etc. And, when you add this to all the things that can go wrong with the original exposure and darkroom printing, you can end up with a real mess. So, if you tend toward the philosophy of "close is good enough" then you'd probably be happier just shooting digital.

I don't mean to be a nazi about it but, with photochemistry, your results will be in direct proportion to how closely you follow correct procedure exactly. Strive to be fastidious with the little details and you'll get beautiful, consistent results.


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## naptime (Dec 8, 2011)

compur said:


> This may seem like nitpicking to some but I always recommend that newbies first follow the mfr's instructions when using their products.  For example, if the mfr recommends using a stop bath then I recommend using one.
> 
> It's often true that a water bath can be substituted for a stop bath (and may even be an improvement) but what is usually omitted from this advice is that doing this results in an increase of effective development time, which in turn affects the image to a certain extent. If you do this you really should make appropriate time compensation. But, this adds complexity, something a newby doesn't need so it should be something dealt with later, after he/she has had more experience.
> 
> ...



not nazi-ish at all. 

i appreciate the direction!!

i am a silk screen t shirt printer. i have my own business. close enough, is never good enough.. not when im on press printing shirts, and not when i am exposing my screens. i have to follow strict timing and methods and measurments.... close enough, will cost me customers.

i want to do things right. this will be a hobby for me. but my daughter is looking towards a career in photography and graphic design.  i never teach her the close enough method for anything. she is always taught the right way. and once you can consider yourself an expert at something, then you can start playing with how you get to the end result.

perhaps it's the former drill sergeant in me


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 8, 2011)

What kind of photographer does your daughter want to be?

Although some people claim to still be using film in commercial/retail photography, I don't know anyone who does. Digital is the way of the commercial world today because it makes it so much easier.

Don't get me wrong, I love the darkroom and I've got one set up but it is for my own enjoyment, not for my commercial work.

All that to say I'm not sure quite what the point of learning film photography is today unless you want to be an artist?


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## Helen B (Dec 8, 2011)

Re checking fixer: one method is to time how long it takes to clear a piece of film leader/tongue when the fixer is fresh, then discard the fixer when that time is doubled for the same type of film (different films have different clearing times). This is an alternative to comparing it with the stated clearing time of the fixer.



c.cloudwalker said:


> Although some people claim to still be using film in commercial/retail photography, I don't know anyone who does.



I still use large format film for commercial work, and I know a few others (some recent evidence) personally and by reputation. Things might change when the existing stocks of Fuji FP-100C45 4x5 instant film run out, however.

Best,
Helen


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## naptime (Dec 8, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> What kind of photographer does your daughter want to be?
> 
> Although some people claim to still be using film in commercial/retail photography, I don't know anyone who does. Digital is the way of the commercial world today because it makes it so much easier.
> 
> ...



I have discussed this in other threads. But, in short...

1. Because we want to learn film. Its an art. Anyone can push a shutter button on digital. I want her to learn all the basics and fundamentals of photography. Which includes black and white film.

2. It prepares her for her senior year photography class. The first quarter is black and white film. The second quarter is color film, the third and fourth are digital.

3. ALL of the art schools she is looking at, for graphic design, require a semester of black and white film, then a semester of color film. And THEN she can take digital courses.


so, that said, I would tend to agree. That film may not normally be required. But for her it is.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 8, 2011)

I'm glad that your answer and Helen's came togeher. I'm just pusing the envelope to make sure you guys though it through. And you sure seem to have. So, ignore me, and just keep on going.


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## ann (Dec 8, 2011)

good thinking on your part!


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## naptime (Dec 8, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I'm glad that your answer and Helen's came togeher. I'm just pusing the envelope to make sure you guys though it through. And you sure seem to have. So, ignore me, and just keep on going.



oh yes. we have definitely thought it through. i we WILL be making the transition to digital in short order. but we needed to go this route and start from the ground up to prepare her for what she'll have to learn in the future anyway.  we chose canon eos film cameras that we can make the switch to digital by simply purchasing the bodies, as our accessories will transfer over.

i failed to mention also, that film was a choice for now, because it was financially easier to get us both started. and this way we can make sure that this is something we WILL be interested in, and that we WILL grasp and learn, etc... before spending more serious cash on a digital body. Though, i know we will......


btw: i never ignore anyone that has constructive input  i had NOT thought about these things, until several other friends made me think about them. your suggestions, were just given to me slightly ahead of time


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## Josh66 (Dec 8, 2011)

naptime said:


> what's a good forgiving set of chems from freestyle for b&w film?
> 
> does it matter?
> liquid or powder?


I prefer liquid, but that's me.  Liquid developers are easier to work with and harder to mess up, IMO.  I like HC-110 and Rodinal.  Both are sold by Freestyle, both practically last forever too.  Both also work on pretty much any film.  Speaking of that - bookmark this site:
Digitaltruth Photo - The Massive Dev Chart B&W Film Development Database

Pick one that has listed times for the films you anticipate using, and stick to it for a while.

As far as using an acid stop bath, the only times I don't are when I'm using Efke film (because it can actually damage that particular film) and when I'm using a stand development.  With stand development (developing for a long time, usually around an hour, with no agitation, using very diluted developer) there just isn't really a need to stop the developing process instantly (which is what stop bath does).  Another 30 seconds in the developer isn't going to do anything after it's already been in there for an hour.



naptime said:


> even another site says to use a few drops of dishsoap  in your final rinse water.


Don't use dish soap.  Get some Photo Flo (or whatever the Ilford version is called).  Use distilled water to mix it.  The water is less than $1 a gallon, and a bottle of Photo Flo will last a very long time.  It gets mixed 1:200 with water, so you are basically using a couple drops per roll.  There are a ****load of drops in 8oz (or however big the bottle is).  

Dish soap will work, but it has a ton of other stuff in it that you don't necessarily want to be on your film.


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## naptime (Dec 8, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> What kind of photographer does your daughter want to be?



i never answered this.. right now she isnt positive..

she is leaning towards animal and landscape. but she also is thinking about portraits. but also possibly macro. at this point it's hard for her to decide, because she doesnt have a camera in hand. and, at the moment, she is thinking more of graphic design as a major and photography as a minor. but, that could change when a camera is in hand. 

last night her discussion was, which offers better chance of employement. no point in being either if you cant support yourself. this was her bringing up the conversation. lol


i on the other hand, will be leaving photography as stictly a hobby... at the moment anyway... i like macro and cityscapes. i love taking pictures of bridges, skyscrapers, park benches, etc.... as well as beach scenes and neighborhood scenses when in the dominican republic.  but until now, it has always been with point and shoots, that seem to always just do a wide angle infinite focus. never allowing me to focus and do anything interesting.. so, i'm looking forward to christmas also


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## ann (Dec 8, 2011)

with wetting agents. use it a few drops at a time, don't mix up a whole bottle of Photo-flo, as it will start growing stuff sooner or later.

My favorite happens to be LPN, it is more expensive, but a small drop goes a long way and never a spotting problem.


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## naptime (Dec 8, 2011)

thanks for all the tips !


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## djacobox372 (Dec 11, 2011)

Stick with liquid developer, hc110 for example.  The benefit is that u can mix from concentrate each time, and the concentrate has a very long shelf life (unlike stock made from powder).

Fix and stop can be reused, dev should be made fresh each time.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 11, 2011)

naptime said:


> i failed to mention also, that film was a choice for now, because it was financially easier to get us both started.



I tend to agree with the financial aspect of this but most people don't.

Yes, I tend to think you pay more attention to what you are doing when each shot costs a bunch while the spray-and-pray kind of shooting basically just teaches that if you shoot enough you may actually get something :er:

So, yeah, digital is cheaper in a way except you may never learn anything but bad habits with it. So, enjoy your learning experience with film. And, by the way, you as a screen printer could benefit from this as much as your daughter. The last T-shirts I had made included a photo as part of the design...

I worked very closely with the printing industry at one time and I learned so much from the experience, I doubt your learning some photo skills would be useless.


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