# Please help.. Unhappy client



## EloiseC (Feb 8, 2014)

First off, I am new here, so forgive me if I am posting this in the wrong place!

I am having an issue with a past client.  I took newborn photos of her son mid last year, while I was working on building my portfolio.  I took the images for free, and she was going to receive a disc with 6 images with print release.  

The session went great.  I made coffee and muffins, and we had a nice time chatting and joking around while I posed and photographed her son.  When it was over, we both left very happy with how the session had went.  I told her I would try to send her a sneak peak or two within the next couple of days.  That night she posted a very long status about how happy she was with the session, and how excited she was to see the images.

The next morning I received a message from her on Facebook asking if the pictures were done yet.  I told her that I had finished one, and she said she thought I had said I would get them ALL done the night before.  I would have loved to get all of her images done that fast, but with three children under three, a part time job, and two online classes... Yeah.  

I then attempted to send her a sneak peak of the image I had finished via Facebook, but for whatever reason it wouldn't send.  I told her what was going on, and asked if she would give me her email address, so I could try to send them that way.  She was online, and it said she had seen the message almost immediately, but she never responded.  And by never, I mean that to this day, several months later, she has still not responded.  I contacted her through Facebook as well as texting her phone once I had the disc ready for her and asked for an address to mail the disc to.  No response.  I called her phone and left a voicemail saying pretty much the same thing, adding that I would be happy to deliver the disc to her myself that day if she gives me an address, and that I included a few extra images on the disc.  Still no response.

I continued to message her on Facebook over the next month or so, and every single time she would see the message and not respond.  Eventually, I decided that I wasn't going to waste my time anymore.  She knew the disc was done, she knew how to get in touch with me, so I sent her a final message saying that whenever she would like to get her disc, I was just a message/phone call/text away.

A few months later, I have some girl I've never met or even heard of before sending me a message on Facebook asking me why I took her friends money and never gave her her son's newborn pictures.  After that, anytime I posted anything on my personal Facebook page, she would comment crazy things on them about how I use people to get pictures and have been ignoring her messages and what not.  She continued to do this for a short time before I decided to unfriend her, after sending her a message explaining why, and once again telling her that as soon as I have an address she will get her pictures.  Still no response.  

Apparently, my unfriending her really made her mad.  She then posted all sorts of things about me on her page, as well as on all of these local buy/sell/trade groups and local parenting groups on Facebook.  Apparently she messaged the admins of these sites, because I found myself kicked out of every single one that I had been a member of.  Yesterday, she posted about me again on a local business review page on Facebook, saying that she had PAID me to take those pictures and that I always ignore her when she asks me about it and that I blocked her because I know I'm wrong and all sorts of stuff like that.  She also had her friends that I don't know comment on that post saying that the same thing happened to them.  I have had two clients who have already paid their non-refundable deposits cancel their sessions, and they told me it was because of what she had posted. 

I don't know what to do and I just feel sick.  I have worked my butt off to get to where I am today, and this isn't fair.  I have NEVER had any other unhappy client, because I go above and beyond to give them the best experience I can, from the time they book their session until the time they receive their digital images or products.  I have no idea at all why she is doing this.  Doesn't she want her son's newborns pictures?  Why does she have all this time to post about me all over Facebook, yet she doesn't have a few seconds to send me a message with an address?  We live in a fairly small (and very dramatic) community, and things get around fast.  The post she left on the review page yesterday had 72 comments last time I checked, all from people saying how they will never go through me and that they will make sure they tell all their family and friends.  

I, of course, have printed out absolutely every message that I have sent her on Facebook, where it shows that she saw it and did not respond.  I was also able to get a record of the calls/texts sent and received by phone for 90 days, which shows me calling and texting her several times, with absolutely no calls or texts coming back from her number.  I have also printed out the messages from my two clients who cancelled specifically because of what she posted (which it says in their messages).  Do you think that with this documentation I would stand a chance in a defamation/libel lawsuit?  Or would I just be wasting my money and time?  Or does anyone have any other advice or suggestions?  Thank you for reading this if you did, and I'm sorry that it's so long.


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## Overread (Feb 8, 2014)

Take all the evidence you have and consult a legal professional.

That's the best advice for you; if you're going into business then having legal contacts is important; they can help you draft up legal contracts that are fair for both parties whilst protecting your interests as well as ensure that problems like this can be solved without too much drama. 

Harassment online is a serious thing, but its also very easy to do and people get the idea that they can harass without any real world comeback. Provided the story is as you say it is a sternly worded letter from a legal professional would likely stop her campaign.


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## Derrel (Feb 8, 2014)

It almost sounds as if you have been deliberately set up. Perhaps by another, competing shooter and her friends.


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## sk66 (Feb 8, 2014)

From what you have said, I would suspect you could "win" a lawsuit... but at what expense/gain? Generally, prior to a lawsuit some other (legal) attempt at resolution has to be tried such as a C&D notice...

But I have to say this is pretty "odd" if the situation is actually as you describe it to be.


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## ratssass (Feb 8, 2014)

Beyond everything else,documenting everything is a first line of defense.Very smart move.


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## Overread (Feb 8, 2014)

sk66 said:


> From what you have said, I would suspect you could "win" a lawsuit... but at what expense/gain? Generally, prior to a lawsuit some other (legal) attempt at resolution has to be tried such as a C&D notice...
> 
> But I have to say this is pretty "odd" if the situation is actually as you describe it to be.



Agreed; typically many things can be resolved by a simple letter from a lawyer. Most people don't actually want to "take you to court" they just want to threaten it. If you then call bluff and get some proper legal support many will back down if they know that they've no actual real case to stand on.


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## EloiseC (Feb 8, 2014)

I did have an attorney look over the portrait agreements and minor model releases that I had drawn up for each session I offer before I officially had a business, but that was after this girl's session.  At that time, I stupidly thought that I didn't need any sort of contract, because there was no money involved, and I didn't own a business.  I haven't talked to the attorney since then, but I guess I'll call him on Monday and see what he has to say.  I always see people threatening lawsuits when people talk bad about them online, and even when legal action is taken, it seems that nothing ever happens, so I didn't know if my situation would even be taken seriously.

Derrel, somehow that never even crossed my mind, but I suppose that's very possible.  There are a ton of local "photographers" who would probably love to run me out of business, since I actually know how to properly expose an image, and don't use a point-and-shoot camera/Rebel to do it.


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## Overread (Feb 8, 2014)

Most of the time when someone gets official legal challenge they back down because they know they've not got much of a case or they know that their chances of winning are too small to risk the costs. So chances are it would only take one official letter to close this matter; or at least to prevent any further spread. Considering the impact its had you might also be advised to see a retraction of her statements/accusations and not just a stop of them - however it might also be easier to present your case through your lawyer to the officials of the groups you've been removed from if you feel its worth it to help rebuild your local image.


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## xj0hnx (Feb 8, 2014)

Three words ...Small ...Claims ...Court. It was made for cases like this. These people's libel has cost your business money, so it has done real world damage, both monetarily and to your reputation.

Libel Vs Slander


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## EloiseC (Feb 8, 2014)

I know that this situation sounds... completely unbelievable. But seriously, it happened, and I don't know why, but it really, REALLY sucks.  I am starting to wonder if it actually is something like Derrel said.  I can't think of any other reason why someone would waste 4 hours in my home having their newborn baby's first pictures taken, and then go completely nuts and ignore every attempt I make to get those special pictures that they will cherish for the rest of their lives to them, and then waste even more time posting on every local Facebook group they can find.  None of it makes sense.


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## EloiseC (Feb 8, 2014)

Thank you for your replies and advice everyone.

Rebuilding my reputation is the reason I was considering a lawsuit in the first place.  I felt like even if I got her to stop posting and/or to remove the posts, that hundreds or possibly thousands of people have already seen what she has said or have heard about it from somebody.  I did try once, before I got removed from the group, to very politely, tastefully, and professionally defend my business, and it was not received well.  Apparently if you try to defend yourself, it is because you are guilty.  And of course, who is going to believe that someone would refuse to get their newborn's pictures?  I certainly wouldn't believe it, if it wasn't happening to me.  I thought that maybe if I won a case against her, maybe some people would find out and know that she was lying and spread the word or something.  I don't know.  I'm extremely upset and discouraged and it sucks.


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## xj0hnx (Feb 8, 2014)

Seriously, get with a lawyer, send Cease and Desist letters, create new accounts on the forums you were banned from and post all evidence once the lawyer clears it, right after you sue the bitches.


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## TheFantasticG (Feb 8, 2014)

In for the resolution. Want to see you in Judge Joe Brown.


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## EloiseC (Feb 8, 2014)

Haha.  I imagine this would be a pretty entertaining case to watch Joe do his thing with.  I would love to watch him put her in her place.  Maybe you will see me on there someday soon.


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## JoeyCadigan (Feb 9, 2014)

Tell her you will take her to court if she doesn't stop. oh and make her apologize on her news feed.


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## Overread (Feb 9, 2014)

JoeyCadigan said:


> Tell her you will take her to court if she doesn't stop.



In all honesty that's more bait to make someone angry. The statement that you'll take someone to court has little meaning nor attached threat when its an individual saying it. You can add a bit more sting by writing it more formally from the company rather than the individual (and the writing in itself is also upping the game some as you're creating a clear paper trail of communication). However if you've no reputation for doing it most will ignore it or just use it to fuel their anger/agression against you.

Now if its presented and written by a professional legal firm things change a lot. No longer is it an empty threat but an actual clear statement that you really will go through with such matters since you've already started taking legal council. You can see big companies do the same thing, any legal communication comes not from "the company" but from the companies legal representatives/division.


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## fokker (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear about your situation OP. That really sucks! And in a way you're a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to legal action. I can just picture this crazy *****, with whatever bizarre motivation she seems to have, making statements like "This ***** didn't give me my photos and now _she's _suing _me_??"

Still, I can't see a way around some form of legal action - it sounds like if you leave things the way they are then your business is doomed. What I would try and do in this situation: Attempt to confront her face to face with your printouts showing she had seen your messages and just ask her straight up, "WTF???" Also, potentially do the same for the clients who cancelled on you and try and make a reasonable explanation, show them the disc with images on it dated x months ago... Basically try and defend yourself and your reputation.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 9, 2014)

Probably asking your lawyer is the best option. It's good I think that you kept track of things, kept copies etc. and now have contracts etc. in place. I'm not sure you could even consider someone a client without a contract or payment, it really just ends up being someone who let you take some photos of them/their child or family. Having a contract even for portfolio use probably is necessary, especially with someone you didn't know and found thru Facebook.

I think it's better to post select photos on a facebook page and link to your own site or whatever site you might be using for clients to access their photos, and to get email addresses and phone numbers so you can maintain better control over distributing photos. I'd also look at Terms & Conditions on social media or any websites you're using to see what you might be agreeing to related to usage.

I'd think too about where you're posting - are all those sites places that potential customers will find you? It seems to have made for a lot of sites to have to go back and request getting back on the site, giving them your side of the story, etc. so you can rebuild your reputation.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 9, 2014)

Rereading the OP, maybe when this woman was told she'd have a sneak peek in a day or two, what she heard was - 'in a day or two', and mistakenly expected all six right away (which to a client may not sound like many). And even though it's the reality of life, you can't really use excuses about having kids, a part time job etc. - it's not a client's problem if you have time constraints.  

Her expectations may have been unrealistic and I don't know why she didn't just say something to you instead of badmouthing you, but that's where having something in writing gives you something to refer the client back to about what was agreed on. Maybe she expected a lot of pictures, or didn't like what you sent, or even got someone else to take some pictures and didn't need yours; who knows what the problem was when you never heard back. I hope you get some helpful info. from your lawyer to help you figure out how to proceed.


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## Bossy (Feb 9, 2014)

Im just really nosey and want to read the reviews :blushing:


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## bribrius (Feb 9, 2014)

file harassment charges and a restraining order. Having them found guilty and served for that, will only help your eventual civil case. It will also stop some of the issues in the meantime.
you probably just ran into a crazy, bipolar. There are a few out there. They will jump on a vendetta bandwagon against a imaginary enemy. Its like a serious personality issue they have.


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## astroNikon (Feb 9, 2014)

Do the lawyer route
Then if she replies, she replies to the lawyer (and track her online comments too).
If she's gone this far ... just inflaming her will cause even more significant verbal rants.
I've dealt with Borderline Personality Disorder (bipolar, narcissistic, vendetta driven) type people before and you will not win (especially in her mind) until it involves something legal, and this person kinda sounds like the type.


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## IByte (Feb 9, 2014)

Is it me of does this sound like slander/harassment?


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## Bossy (Feb 10, 2014)

Just to let you know how bad this really is EloiseC, just reading your side, I can't help but think you played a part in all of this and are guilty despite your assurances you did nothing. Thats how strong negative feedback is. Take her to court, clear your name, and make sure those review sites know it was defamation and make them remove it all.


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## Braineack (Feb 10, 2014)

Stop dealing with morons. Stop worrying about them.


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## gsgary (Feb 10, 2014)

This is what happens when you live your life on Facebook, you said its a small community why did you not do business face to face 

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## Mach0 (Feb 10, 2014)

It's a tough spot but I would have posted a screen shot of your messages and said something along the lines of " I've reached out numerous times and you've never responded. If you want your photos, I'd be happy to provide them. Here is my contact information. Any further attempts or (whatever....) will result in legal recourse."  Of course I'm not a legal professional but I'd try to shut them up at the very beginning and not entertain any arguments. That's just me though. I'm usually a go for the kill the first time of guy. Probably won't be the best thing but I would feel better lol.


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## Steve5D (Feb 10, 2014)

If this was someone local, I think I'd be having a word with her, face to face...


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## kathyt (Feb 10, 2014)

Did you have a model release and contract signed by chance? If so, does that contract say no money owed? I would be posting that on my FB page to show that you DID NOT charge her. People like this make me want to vomit. ALWAYS get a contract even if there is no money exchanged!


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## Infidel (Feb 10, 2014)

Talk to an attorney now. You have likely posted information that the client could be identified with or identify you with, including your screen name (sounds like a first name, last initial), the fact that your location shows up next to your posts  and you live in a small, dramatic community. Someone who wants to damage your reputation can scour the internet and find this, and use your posts against you (as you intend to use the client's internet activity against her). Do not underestimate this person. Hire an attorney and tell them about this thread so they can advise whether or not to delete your posts here. In general, one should pay a good attorney for legal advice before turning to the internet and divulging this sort of thing.


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## Gavjenks (Feb 10, 2014)

Pretty obvious case of libel. It is illegal for her to act like this, and like other have said, while you may not want to actually go through with a lawsuit, you do probably have a very strong case with so much written and stored evidence of you indeed trying to contact her.  And strong cases = the basis for very intimidating letters on lawyer stationary, that may be sufficient to simply get her to stop and maybe even post a retraction or two out of fear. Without you necessarily having to put much real effort in at all, or money.


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## Steve5D (Feb 11, 2014)

kathyt said:


> Did you have a model release and contract signed by chance? If so, does that contract say no money owed? I would be posting that on my FB page to show that you DID NOT charge her. People like this make me want to vomit. ALWAYS get a contract even if there is no money exchanged!



If the OP doesn't have a contract, neither does the other person. It's important to remember that.

Personally, I think you should delete every photo you took of her pointed-headed little rug rat and deny ever seeing it. Offer to produce the photos as soon as the other person produces a copy of the contract, *written by you*, that you both signed. Defend yourself. Go to every webpage, Facebook page, forum, etc, where the person made those accusations and call her out on them.

Put up or shut up...


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## CmazzJK (Feb 11, 2014)

Facebook is destroying humanity faster than heart disease


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## Braineack (Feb 11, 2014)

CmazzJK said:


> Facebook is destroying humanity faster than heart disease



My kittie album on FB only has 94 pictures of my cats...should I add more?


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## Steve5D (Feb 11, 2014)

Braineack said:


> CmazzJK said:
> 
> 
> > Facebook is destroying humanity faster than heart disease
> ...



A buddy of mine in Miami made a Facebook page for his Bichon Frise, and then sent out friend requests for it.

I declined it.

I just don't understand why someone would do that...


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## Braineack (Feb 11, 2014)

You should be a better buddy and take him outside every now and again...


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## Steve5D (Feb 11, 2014)

Braineack said:


> You should be a better buddy and take him outside every now and again...



No, I hate little yappy dogs like that.

Besides, any dog that doesn't come up to your knee is a cat...


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## gsgary (Feb 11, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > You should be a better buddy and take him outside every now and again...
> ...



You wouldnt like my dogs, but they would tackle an dog twice their size and any cat would be dead in seconds

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2


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## IByte (Feb 11, 2014)

Steve5D said:


> If the OP doesn't have a contract, neither does the other person. It's important to remember that.
> 
> Personally, I think you should delete every photo you took of her pointed-headed little rug rat and deny ever seeing it. Offer to produce the photos as soon as the other person produces a copy of the contract, written by you, that you both signed. Defend yourself. Go to every webpage, Facebook page, forum, etc, where the person made those accusations and call her out on them.
> 
> Put up or shut up...



..bing!!


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## JBrown (Feb 11, 2014)

All the above is a good suggestion. Unfortunately the damage is done. I say lay low and relaunch your brand under a diff name and try a diff market.


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## CMfromIL (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm just trying to figure out how the OP took pictures w/out any sort of model release/contract that DIDN'T list the clients name/address.  Before I would ever click the shutter, the contract is signed, 'free' pictures or not.  That being said, the 'client' has moved beyond disappointment, and into libel.  I would consult with an attorney, not one on the internet.  If money is tight, as around at your local church or house of worship.  There is always one attorney in the mix.  Ask if you can get a 'sidebar' consultation and BRIEFLY lay out the issue.  Leave out all the emotional stuff, it's neither relevant or helpful.  I did XX, and was met with XXX.  They will give you and idea of what you can do.  Small claims court would be a good option.  However, to prove damages you will need to quantify how the false information has harmed your business.  As in "I think it's affected my business" isn't a winning argument.

It sounds like you've found a real winner.  Good luck.


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## Steve5D (Feb 14, 2014)

JBrown said:


> All the above is a good suggestion. Unfortunately the damage is done. I say lay low and relaunch your brand under a diff name and try a diff market.



The damage is only done if she allows it to remain so.

Her name will always be associated with whatever business name she chooses. If someone wrongly attacks her, "laying low" is the equivalent of "running away". Do that, and everyone will conclude that what's being said is true.

No, she needs to defend herself and turn the tables...


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## astroNikon (Feb 14, 2014)

Braineack said:


> CmazzJK said:
> 
> 
> > Facebook is destroying humanity faster than heart disease
> ...



purr-fect


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## Braineack (Feb 14, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > CmazzJK said:
> ...



it's funny cause it's true.


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## Mesurate (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm new, just joined, was looking through some posts and came across this. Couldn't help to reply. Hope this is the correct way to reply to the OP. Anyway, I didn't read all the replies of course, but from the OP  I suspect that this might be another photographer (especially if the person lives in the area) and she basically set you u, took advantage of the whole "building the business / building portfolio/ no contract needed" situation and used it in her advantage . So sad. I really have no advice, but I wish you resolve this. It must be so frustrating to be going through this as a professional and as another mom trying to build your business.


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## WeddingPhotoTX (Mar 26, 2014)

EloiseC,
Thanks for sharing.
Sorry to hear about your situation.
This is an important lesson for everyone to learn.
Hopefully everything will be alright with your business.
Good luck!


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