# Any way to catch H20 Collisions without a timing device?



## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

I would really like to try and kick my water drop stuff up a notch, but I don't see myself ever spending 500$+ on a timer. Are there any other methods for catching these? Any way to build a timer? My DH is pretty handy in the rigging department so if I found a tutorial or something he could probably figure it out.


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## qleak (Nov 30, 2014)

You may want to consider a burette. That's the device used to titrate chemicals (in high school chemistry at least). You can set a reliable drip rate and time the photos accordingly. They even have burette clamps.

I think this is probably a better solution than a timing device anyway, those things have to be a pain in the ass to calibrate.


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## Buckster (Nov 30, 2014)

I started with the timed drip, drip, drip method from a baggie with a tiny hole in it hanging from above the pan of water.

Then I stepped up a notch by building a DIY photogate trigger and timer found here:

HiViz - Kits - Photogate-Delay Unit Packages

My first test shot with it:







When something breaks the beam (like a drip or, in this case, a Sharpie pen), it triggers the circuit.  The timer sets up a delay you can control to give the drip time to get from the beam to the splatter base or pan.  I set the whole thing up on a DIY platform like this:






When I squeezed out a drop from the medicine dropper, it falls through the hole.  As it passes between the light emitter and receiver, it triggers the circuit.  The timer then delays it an amount of time I controlled, and then it fired the light at the precise moment of the splat that I wanted.

I now use a much more expensive trigger system, but that REALLY inexpensive DIY solution really worked well.


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## Overread (Nov 30, 2014)

Buck has found the answer - a beam mixed with a timer that you can vary and then bolted to a shutter trip (or flash trip). That way you get your water drop breaking the beam and from then till it hits the surface will always be a fixed time so you can work from that to vary things. The only tricky area will be if you want to to collisions because unless you've a valve setup so that you can control the drops themselves you might find it a touch hit and miss trying to time drops just right. 

Cognisys Inc - Capture the Hidden World
Has all the stuff you'd need if you want to buy it all outright from valves to trips to timer - you can even do complex multi-vale and multi-flash setups. Expensvie but something to keep in mind if you get really into it.


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Buckster said:


> I started with the timed drip, drip, drip method from a baggie with a tiny hole in it hanging from above the pan of water.
> 
> Then I stepped up a notch by building a DIY photogate trigger and timer found here:
> 
> ...


But how did you ensure you got a collision? Wouldn't it trigger for the first drop?


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## Braineack (Nov 30, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I would really like to try and kick my water drop stuff up a notch, but I don't see myself ever spending 500$+ on a timer. Are there any other methods for catching these? Any way to build a timer? My DH is pretty handy in the rigging department so if I found a tutorial or something he could probably figure it out.



whatever you happened to do on that last set you posted on flickr, seemed to work out.

Those are some of the best I've ever seen.


I actually have a device called Megasquirt sitting on my desk right now.  It's designed to control a car's spark/fuel, i bet I could get that to work in a few minutes


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Braineack said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > I would really like to try and kick my water drop stuff up a notch, but I don't see myself ever spending 500$+ on a timer. Are there any other methods for catching these? Any way to build a timer? My DH is pretty handy in the rigging department so if I found a tutorial or something he could probably figure it out.
> ...


Thank you for the wonderful compliment! The colors came from my sons space book, with a purple or black tray underneath depending on the shot. My method seems to work GREAT for getting most splashes, but in my probably thousands of shots, I have NEVER been able to capture the "mushroom" collision. or anything similar. I am really thinking it might be impossible without a timer. Or maybe I just need better additives???


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## Gary A. (Nov 30, 2014)

I saw a newish app and, IIRC, an interface device that runs off a smartphone, demonstrated in another forum. It was relatively inexpensive. The Hong Kong guy who owns a camera store and makes those entertaining yet informative videos, has a video using the device as well. Sound triggers the device and it seems to work quite well. I known a forum member (different forum) that has one. I'll hit him up if you want.

Gary


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> I saw a newish app and, IIRC, an interface device that runs off a smartphone, demonstrated in another forum. It was relatively inexpensive. The Hong Kong guy who owns a camera store and makes those entertaining yet informative videos, has a video using the device as well. Sound triggers the device and it seems to work quite well. I known a forum member (different forum) that has one. I'll hit him up if you want.
> 
> Gary


Sure! I would definitely be interested in learning a bit more. I can pm you with my email address, if that would be best?


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## Buckster (Nov 30, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> But how did you ensure you got a collision? Wouldn't it trigger for the first drop?


Unfortunately, with this very simple setup, collisions were not possible.  I was doing shots like this with it:






Later, because I wanted to do collisions, I went with a more expensive system that allows me all kinds of triggering possibilities beyond single and collision drips.  I'm using the Camera Axe system and a variety of triggers found here: Camera Axe

Here are a couple of collision shots from it:


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Those are great Buckster! I seem to have the "crowns" and what not taken care of with my current rigging. Im specifically wanting the more advanced collisions.


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Nov 30, 2014)

I don't know why your husband won't "approve" another $500 for photography gear.  I'm sure this will be the last time.


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> I don't know why your husband won't "approve" another $500 for photography gear.  I'm sure this will be the last time.


Yeah, definitely the LAST expensive gear purchase for the 2014 calendar year. :Giggle: But he got a shiny new truck this year, which is WAYYY more than my camera gear. So its only fair right??? ;-)


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## Overread (Nov 30, 2014)

If he got a truck you get an equal amount of camera gear in money/weight (whichever is the greater )


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## Buckster (Nov 30, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Those are great Buckster! I seem to have the "crowns" and what not taken care of with my current rigging. Im specifically wanting the more advanced collisions.


I think the big problem you'll need to overcome is the precise timing of the drips themselves.  Unless they are exactly timed apart from one another, you'll simply NEVER get a collision, except by pure accident.  One has to follow the first at an exact timing in order to collide with the first one just as the first one is splashing up.

That's where the more expensive triggers come into play because they trigger not just the lights, but the precise pumps/drippers that squirt out more than one drip in a precise timing between them, then fire the light at the precise moment they collide.  In addition, those pumps and the controllers also control how much liquid will be used for each drop, which can make a big difference as well.  So, one drop can be bigger than the other, providing unique varied results.

Here's the Camera Axe Valve Sensor pump I'm using:

Valve Sensor [ca016] - $60.00 : Dreaming Robots Store


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Overread said:


> If he got a truck you get an equal amount of camera gear in money/weight (whichever is the greater )


over the corse of the loan, or this year? lol. I think an equal amount of the monthly car payment is pretty fair. Insurance costs too right??


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Buckster said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > Those are great Buckster! I seem to have the "crowns" and what not taken care of with my current rigging. Im specifically wanting the more advanced collisions.
> ...


Yes, I have come CLOSE to getting a collision many times, but you know what they say about horseshoes.  

I watched a youtube video last night of a 500fps slow motion video of the collision it was pretty awesome! Two minuets, three collisions real time of .6 seconds! AMAZING! Looks like I will have to wait patiently for a timer. Or start selling some photos to fund it. :BIGGIGGLE:


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Nov 30, 2014)

Is it a work truck?


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## Buckster (Nov 30, 2014)

Here's some more useful information:

Photographing splashing droplets.


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> Is it a work truck?


Sort of. Only for personal work though. You know, gathering firewood so we don't freeze in the winter, that sort of nonsense.


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Buckster said:


> Here's some more useful information:
> 
> Photographing splashing droplets.


Thanks! It's time to start school here but I'll bookmark it for lunch!


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## Gary A. (Nov 30, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a newish app and, IIRC, an interface device that runs off a smartphone, demonstrated in another forum. It was relatively inexpensive. The Hong Kong guy who owns a camera store and makes those entertaining yet informative videos, has a video using the device as well. Sound triggers the device and it seems to work quite well. I known a forum member (different forum) that has one. I'll hit him up if you want.
> ...


No need for a pm. The app is called Triggertrap. Here is a link to the other forum where I first saw the app.

Triggertrap looks like a LOT of fun - General X Camera Discussion - Fuji X Forum

Here's a video: 




Good Luck, I think I'm gonna get one too.

Gary


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## Buckster (Nov 30, 2014)

A medical intravenous drip chamber might be a really good and inexpensive solution to drip timing.

Just Google or Amazon search: intravenous drip chamber

Looks like you can get one for about $9 including shipping and handling.  Maybe cheaper if you search more than I did.


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## pgriz (Nov 30, 2014)

A long time ago, I rigged up a simple setup where two needles formed a very small gap, and were connected to a circuit that would supply the trigger to a flash.  The gap was positioned so that a falling drop would pass through the gap, and in doing so, complete the circuit, triggering the flash.  There was a little bit of latency in this, so by varying the height of the needle gap, I was able to effectively create a timing mechanism.  It was crude, but simple, and it worked.  One of these days I'll do this again and see if I can document it in photographs.


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## Gary A. (Nov 30, 2014)

Triggertrap has a flash sync as well. Check out all the products on their site. Amazon seems to be about $10 cheaper than purchasing from the official Triggertrap site.

Gary


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 30, 2014)

Might get some ideas from the Edgerton center where his techniques are used and studied.
Harold "Doc" Edgerton
High-Speed Images | Edgerton Center 

Or I found this when I was looking up the other - High-speed macro photographer shares his setup: Digital Photography Review


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## qleak (Nov 30, 2014)

Check out this 3000 fps video. It gets all the collision types you could hope for. But it looks like the drop timing is quite fast. Now I haven't done this frame-by-frame but i think the rough guide is probably close enough to give an order of magnatude

3" 1st drop hits water
16" 1st collision

12 seconds and 3000 fps that's (at least) 1/250 of a second between drops. It's "running" water. 

I say at least because the 2nd drop hits higher so is spending less time falling.

So it looks like the really difficult part of this is getting good accurate water drops.. err.. i mean running water


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## astroNikon (Nov 30, 2014)

Wow, some awesome examples.
But I'm done buying camera stuff for the year. 
My next big purchase is a nice Campagnolo Ghibli or Mavic Comete rear disc wheel for one of my bicycles ... and riding alot more too


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## Gary A. (Nov 30, 2014)

I'd think you'd like 'lectric shifters more than brakes.


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Nov 30, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Here's some more useful information:
> ...


School on Sunday?


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## JustJazzie (Nov 30, 2014)

Gary, that trigger trap looks neat!



vintagesnaps said:


> Might get some ideas from the Edgerton center where his techniques are used and studied.
> Harold "Doc" Edgerton
> High-Speed Images | Edgerton Center
> 
> Or I found this when I was looking up the other - High-speed macro photographer shares his setup: Digital Photography Review


That second link was really helpful right off the bat! It lets me know a drops per second to aim for! Ill browse the first when I have a little more time to focus.


TreeofLifeStairs said:


> JustJazzie said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...



:Giggle: Yes, haven't you ever heard of "sunday school?" The perks of homeschooling I suppose.


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## WayneF (Dec 4, 2014)

JustJazzie said:


> I would really like to try and kick my water drop stuff up a notch, but I don't see myself ever spending 500$+ on a timer. Are there any other methods for catching these? Any way to build a timer? My DH is pretty handy in the rigging department so if I found a tutorial or something he could probably figure it out.




A simple timer like the HiViz can fully control the splash phases of one drop.  the crown, the rebound column, whatever you want (and some manage to do pretty well just by eye and reflex, with no timer, but results are very consistent with the timer).

But two drops colliding will need a timed valve to control the released second drop too.  

See Shako Solenoid Valve for Water Drop Collision Photography for example.  That uses a StopShot timer, which can time multiple things.  The regular flash timing from when the first drop breaks the beam, and also the solenoid valve to release the second drop at the right time. Then collisions become very simple, you just dial in the necessary delay to get the result you want. Results are very repeatable, every time (yet each one is slightly different too).


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## minicoop1985 (Dec 5, 2014)

Something so simple (seemingly) gets so expensive really fast. Wowie wow.


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