# Basic Daylight Exposure Question



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Hello everybody!
When using full manual mode (M) on the camera, I understand the equivalent exposures (relations between full fstops and full shutter speed stops and full ISO stops and how to change them without changing the (right) exposure). But how do you start with a photograph? Do you use the rule
    shutter speed = 1/ ISO @ f/16
for sunny days? Are do you like other rules?
So, by what do you start for getting the exposure right?
Thanks for your answers!
Gabriel


----------



## tsaraleksi (Oct 27, 2008)

Easier: just put the camera in Av. Get an idea of what it suggests based upon your depth of field and shutter speed needs. Go from there.


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks tsaraleksi for your answer! I have indeed once thought about this issue too, but it is sometimes cumbersome for you need adjust the shutter speed in the manual mode which the camera gave you in Av. Is there any shortcut (like, you press a key and then change from Av to M) so the camera copies the same aperture and shutter speed it had in Av and uses the same values in M?
Thanks!!


----------



## Overread (Oct 27, 2008)

where to start with a photo depends what you want the photo to look like 

I agree with tsaraleksi (did I get that right?) Start off in aperture priority mode and start to see how depth of field and aperture relate. Also look at the works of others and how they have set their settings for different effects - that can give you an idea of where to start shooting.

For example a landscape shot can be done on a tipod with a long shutterspeed - so you can use a smaller aperture (that means lager f number) to get more depth into the shot. Whilst wildlife you want a fast shutter speed - so to get that you have to use a wider aperture ( smaller f number) - but what if you want to use a bigger aperture? well then you can up your ISO - but beware of the noise it adds to a shot.

That is just an example - different situations require their own settings - it sounds complex, but once you get your head round it its simple. Also try reading Understanding Exposure by Bryan Paterson = that will give you more ideas regarding settings and exposure


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks, Overread, I understand. But I am still puzzled: is finding the "right" exposure in Manual mode then by trial and error? You want a large aperture for a shallow depth of field (example), but by how much? f/4? f/2.8? f/1.4? Or do you try them all three (and some between) and check at your computer which you like most?
Thanks!


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 27, 2008)

gabrielh said:


> Do you use the rule
> shutter speed = 1/ ISO @ f/16
> for sunny days? Are do you like other rules?
> So, by what do you start for getting the exposure right?
> Thanks for your answers!



Hey there. 

In the days of film, they made the sunny 16 rule, which doesn't work well in the world of digital.  Though we both capture moments in time with film or digital, in the film world you commonly exposed to the right and processed for the shadows... meaning, you lightly overexposed the picture to capture detail in the shadows and brought things down in the darkroom to set the overall exposure properly.  

An awesome technique that works simply because film has more dynamic range than what even the most modern digital cameras have.

In all modern digital cameras, we have to think and work differently.  We must expose for the MID TONES and process for the highlights.  Meaning... because we have a roughly 5 stops of dynamic range (vs 6 to 6.5 in film), we have to be very careful to not blowout (overexpose) anything that is critical to our picture.  Once something is blown-out that is data that is forever gone.

The main reason for this is that the meters in our digital cameras are set to meter EVERYTHING to around 18% gray.  This is why, if you follow the camera's meter readings, snow looks gray, and black cars come out looking gray-ish.  The camera trys to meter EVERYTHING into that 18% gray setting.

So... in the digital world, your meter will try to zero out against the mid-tones and process for the highlights.  This is the best way to get reasonably proper exposures... meter against the mid-tones before taking the shot.

Of course ANY method has exceptions and work-arounds depending on what the goals for any picture are.  There will be times that one must meter for the darker or lighter tones to get the shot.  Knowing WHAT to meter against, therefore, is the first and most important step in knowing how to get a proper exposure. 

That's half the fun of photography for me lately... learning what to expose for in any given scene, how to handle complex scenes and how to handle each challenge so that I get the best exposures possible.

It has been repeated here likely a million times... but try to find the book called UNDERSTANDING EXPOSURE by Bryon Peterson... it will open your eyes to a new way of understanding how light works.  I recommend this book to all photographers, newbies and experienced alike.


----------



## Overread (Oct 27, 2008)

nope nope - look at your cameras built in light meter - idealy the meter wants to have the arrow in the middle for a "perfect" exposure. So you prioritise your settings according to what you are after - say if your shooting something moving then a fast shutter speed will be important so you start there - then maybe you want little noise - so ISO is low - then you set your aperture to fit - of course you will have to adjust settings to fit since you won't ever get "perfect" shooting conditions.

Of course built into this is experience - that will help tell you what a fast shutter speed really is - which is why I say start in aperture priority mode first since it deals with shutter speed automatically.
However in bright sunlight you might need to make an underexposed shot (exposure arrow to the left of the middle) to prevent your highlights from overexposing.

One of the joys of digitial though is that you can try all the settings -go home and review (post on forums and write a blog is what I do) and you can see from your results what good settings worked - back in the days of film only that is what they did - they read what settings were commonly good - experimented - wasted shots and learnt. Of course if you can get some tutoring you can take advantage of the experience of another to advise and show you in the field as opposed to in the computer after


----------



## Josh66 (Oct 27, 2008)

The "right" exposure is when the needle on the meter lines up with zero.

Chose your aperture, then adjust the shutter speed to get the needle where you want it on the meter.


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your answers! I read quit a lot about all these technicalities and heard about the 18% gray metering, but I really don't understand that (yet). Have you got any advice on a book or a website concerning this issue?
Thanks!


----------



## Overread (Oct 27, 2008)

Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson is a good starting point.
For websites you could try:
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm
specifically :
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/exposure/exposure.htm


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok! It is sure om my to-read list !


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 27, 2008)

O|||||||O said:


> The "right" exposure is when the needle on the meter lines up with zero.



Is it really?  What happens if they point it to the sun, set the meter to that, then point it to the subject?

How about if I set the meter according to the shadows beside the person?  How will the person come out looking?

That's part of what I meant by knowing WHAT to meter against.  

We can get a little more complex... what do you meter against when you have a bride with a WHITE dress standing beside the groom in a BLACK tuxedo?

How about a snowy mountain slope?

You are "techically" correct in that the camera will always do it's best to set camera settings to try to zero out the meter... however it is not all that often correct in the sense that it will come out "correct".

Let's use the example of the snowy mountain slope.  If I follow the camera, the snow will look 18% grey.  Now, if when I metered against the snow, and set the meter to read +2 or +3 and the snow is white.

Now if I was taking a picture of a man skiing down that slope and he was wearing a dark jacket, he would be suddenly wearing a gray jacket and the snow would be blown out (with the camera set to meter itself on him).  Snow is totally blown out at this point.

If I metered against his dark jacket and set the camera to a -2, he would come out looking GREAT, but the snow (and the rest of the shot), all around him would be darker.  However, since the man's jacket was the focus and subject of the shot, I do not care about the snow... and the exposure is now not just technically correct... but ARTISTICALLY correct! 

Make sense?


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok.. One more question, camera-technical: how do you just meter on the skiing person? Do you use "spot metering" (heard of it, and have tried on my camera, with sometimes big differences with center-weighted or matrix, but don't understand how it really affect the image). And also don't understand what one means with 18% gray. If you stop the meter down -2 or  -3 (actually, on what "scale"...?), then the brighter snow will get darker&#8212;I follow. But will you get something like 5% gray or more like 30% grey? Is 5% gray lighter or darker than 30% gray?
A lot of questions, thanks for any answers. Love photos!


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 27, 2008)

You guessed right on the nose... spot metering would do the trick. 

As for where that 18% number came from... its from the old days of B&W film.  18% gray is the theoretical middle between black and white.  That is what the cameras are set to meter for... mid tones.  Now we don't need to meter against a grey card, though that works, but can use known alternatives... like the fact that the palm of the average caucasian is about 1-1.5 stops away from 18% grey in terms of tones. 

Spot metering will take the metering from a very small area in the center of your picture.  Center weighted uses a bigger circle, perhaps 30-50% of the picture.  Evaluative or matrix takes a look at the complete (100%) of the picture and averages it all out.


----------



## tsaraleksi (Oct 27, 2008)

The key here is that after a while you just get used to what works where and everything gets easier. Because of the oddities of the human eye it's very tough to gauge exposure by just looking, but you can often get pretty close.


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 27, 2008)

Actually, I used to wonder a LOT about that.  One can stumble and try to understand intuitively, but when properly explained becomes concrete info ready to be used.  Once I learned about the Zone System, I learned to gauge my exposures pretty consistently even before I raise the camera to my eye.  

I'm still practicing.  The "system", but it can be learned in a couple of hours... practicing takes a little more.

I picked this up:
http://www.photoshopcafe.com/video/products/zones.htm

This is, again, one of those valuable little jewels that every photographer should have, yet so few know about.


----------



## Overread (Oct 27, 2008)

hmm I heard about the zone system somewhere else - thanks for the link Jerry
edit - drat it costs...........*needs more monies in life - needs to find that money tree*


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah, its not free unfortunately, but it is well worth it.  There is also a ton of "free" info out there on it.  I just googled it and if you wanted to pull it together from various sources, it is possible.

Google Links


----------



## ksmattfish (Oct 28, 2008)

Some good links.  These sites really helped me transition from film and the darkroom to digital and Photoshop.

Cambridge in Colour  http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm
Clarkvision  http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html
check out the tutorials, techniques, and understanding sections at Luminous Landscape  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/
Norman Koren  http://www.normankoren.com/#Tutorials
Ron Bigelow  http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm

digital exposure:
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/previsualization/previsualization.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-metering.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/RAW-file-format.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/histograms1.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/histograms2.htm
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/camera-histogram/camera-histogram.htm
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/exposure/exposure.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html

dynamic range:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2/index.html
http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html


----------



## gabrielh (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks everyone!


----------



## ksmattfish (Oct 29, 2008)

Overread said:


> hmm I heard about the zone system somewhere else - thanks for the link Jerry
> edit - drat it costs...........*needs more monies in life - needs to find that money tree*



Get it straight from the horse's mouth.  Buy a used copy of Ansel Adams' "The Negative".  There are dirt cheap copies in used bookstores and Amazon.


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 29, 2008)

ksmattfish said:


> Get it straight from the horse's mouth. Buy a used copy of Ansel Adams' "The Negative". There are dirt cheap copies in used bookstores and Amazon.


 
There are 3 different books/levels of it.  I presume all 3 are the complete info?

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Negative[/ame]


----------



## Steph (Oct 29, 2008)

Woah!! This thread went from basic daylight exposure to Ansel Adam's zone system. To the OP, ksmattfish's links are a much better start then Ansel Adam's books. Whatever people say, Ansel Adam's zone system (and how it applies to digital photography) is not straightforward to understand and implement.


----------



## JerryPH (Oct 29, 2008)

Steph said:


> Adam's zone system (and how it applies to digital photography) is not straightforward to understand and implement.


 
I do not know if it does or not, however the links to the video tutorials that I gave above (not the amazon links to Ansel's books), are very specific to digital photography, as you can likely tell from my talks about it and referencing the 18% grey comments several times.


----------



## Steph (Oct 29, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I do not know if it does or not, however the links to the video tutorials that I gave above (not the amazon links to Ansel's books), are very specific to digital photography, as you can likely tell from my talks about it and referencing the 18% grey comments several times.



Agreed. My post referred to the last 2 posts above mine (the ones about Ansel Adam's books).


----------



## ksmattfish (Oct 29, 2008)

The zone system can get pretty technical in the darkroom, but my suggestion is to read up on it more to use as a way of considering and planning tonal relationships in the creation of a photograph.  If you are a digital shooter skip the darkroom details, and just concentrate on the mental aspects.  The other books in the series have lots of good info:  the first one is all about how film cameras work, and the third is all about silver gelatin prints.  Sets of all three can probably be found just as cheap, but the zone system info is mainly in book two.  I suggested the book because there was mention of paying for info, and I know there are a million used copies of AA's books going for cheap out there.

It is true that there are also a lot of free websites discussing the zone system, and how to apply the concepts to digital.  Just google "digital zone system".


----------



## SilverGlow (Oct 31, 2008)

Someone said one must expose so that the exposure is right on. Another said to expose for the mid tones. I think for digital raw capture, both ways are wrong. For raw digital, exposing for the midtones means bye, bye details in the shadows. Remember, the shadows show manytimes less tonal graduations then the highlights, so it doesn't take much to squash away the details in the shadows. In addition, exposing for the midtones means a more likelyhood of noise.

I and other pros and advance amatuers have found that when shooting raw, it is very beneficial to expose to the right of the histogram, then to "normalize" the shadows during post processing. This provides several benefits:

1. Expands the dynamic range.
2. minimizes noise in the shadows.
3. Maximizes subtle details and nuances in the shadows.

The biggest mistake people make is to use film exposure truisms with digital. Perhaps when shooting jpg those film truisms are not so bad, especially when using slide film exposure strategies. Raw is a different story.

With digital raw, the worse thing one can do is apply film like exposure practices. In summary, expose to the right with judicious blowing of highlights in elements that donn't matter (not the subject), and when you do this, don't be disheartened if the raw image looks blah, flat, lacking contrast, lacking saturation...because often the best captured raw images will look like this, but the up take is that those same blah images will be the best foundation for starting the post processing. 

The goal of raw is never to get the exposure "perfect" as one would do with film. The point of raw is to capture the must image details across the entire histogram and to do this one must often "lift" the histogram values to the right, and often these images will look flat and blah, lacking punch, but that's okay.  They often are supposed to look blah.

Once mastered in post processing, raw images exposed as I describe will be freakin awesome, contrasty, punchy, and often awesome.


----------

