# Interesting thing happened ...I think I was robbed?



## ottor (Nov 6, 2014)

Camera club had a showing at the local Art Center/Gallery - I had 8 photos displayed, and all for sale.  We had a 'Meet the artists" reception and I was approached by a (very) elderly lady using a walker.. (80++ yrs old).  She said that she loved the colors of this specific photo, and would be interested in purchasing it.  She stated it would match her living room decor perfectly, but can't get it until her SSA comes in at the end of the month...  Not a problem, and I ordered it from the lab.

10/30 I delivered it to her home.... a very cluttered, disorganized  living room, and my first thought was "Eccentric"..  She had me hang it on her wall, and commented how lovely it was, and then gave me a check for payment in full.....  Then .... she turned into a raging lion of a business woman !!  She stated that she had a website project and brochure project going for Physical Therapists, and my photograph will make a beautiful background for both ... She then whipped out her cell phone and showed me an image of _my photo_ already on her phone, with all the logo's and type already designed.  Apparently she showed up at the gallery and took a cell phone shot of my photograph, and used photoshop to design this brochure!   She predicted that the brochures will reach over 10,000 therapists ... and the website is almost ready to go.  Then, just as sudden, she thanked me for coming over and delivering the photo, turned around, and - using her walker - shuffled slowly off down the hall stating she had to take her medicine.

Did I just get 'drop kicked' by an old lady ??

R


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## Scatterbrained (Nov 6, 2014)

SImple.  When the website goes live send the webmaster a DMCA takedown notice.     She already showed you where it's going to be, and she certainly didn't pay for it.


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## astroNikon (Nov 6, 2014)

==> What is a DMCA Takedown? - DMCA.com


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## Nevermore1 (Nov 6, 2014)

That will work for the website but do nothing for all the brochures she's getting printed up.  Unfortunately this may require a meeting with a lawyer to have them draft up a cease and desist letter.


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## jsecordphoto (Nov 6, 2014)

Why didn't you say something immediately? Something like, "looks great! That'll be $500 for the license of that photo, just add it to this check".


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## vintagesnaps (Nov 6, 2014)

You said the site is something for therapists? Is it something that she might see as a charitable or medical purpose that she may not see as business or commercial?

I'd contact the gallery, I would expect that taking photos of artwork would be prohibited or restricted (but I imagine maybe not so easy to enforce with people taking pictures with their phones). I would let them know what happened since your work was on display there. There should be some agreement when you display your work about what the gallery does to protect art work while in their possesion, that the photographer is agreeing for example that photos of the display may be on the gallery's website or social media pages etc., and what the artist is responsible for (insurance for shipping or display etc.).

I'd probably contact her to discuss that she purchased a print but that photographers license use of their photos for other purposes, and a contract is used to specify usage. You could send her a link (or print out info. to provide to her) from a site like ASMP that explains licensing.

I'd find out more about who she's doing this for...??? That might be who you need to go thru for licensing, I'm not sure why she'd be doing a brochure for a group of therapists. (Or why they'd use some little old lady's cell phone picture of someone else's photo - could she be submitting her cell photo to them thinking she's helping them out? maybe it's someplace where she's gone for therapy or medical treatment??)


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## sm4him (Nov 6, 2014)

Just. WOW.

I'll let others handle the advice on this one. I'm just…Wow.

I hope that when I'm that age, I am just as feisty as her, but with more of my morals still intact.


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## Light Guru (Nov 6, 2014)

jsecordphoto said:


> Why didn't you say something immediately? Something like, "looks great! That'll be $500 for the license of that photo, just add it to this check".



^^^^^THAT^^^^^

The fact that you said nothing to her about her needing to pay to use the image like that means that you told her you are ok with what she did.


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## Gary A. (Nov 6, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> jsecordphoto said:
> 
> 
> > Why didn't you say something immediately? Something like, "looks great! That'll be $500 for the license of that photo, just add it to this check".
> ...


Legally, that is not true at all, at least in the United States. You still retain all legal remedies and protections ... just as long as you didn't agree/approve to her commercial usage of the image. 

Is it worth it to pursue this through the courts ... that's your call. For me, it is probably not worth the effort. But we are all different.


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## Light Guru (Nov 6, 2014)

I never said anything about legal stuff. 
I said. 


Light Guru said:


> The fact that you said nothing to her about her needing to pay to use the image like that means that you told her you are ok with what she did.



By not saying anything right away your practically saying that you don't care that she stole your image and is using it for commercial use.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 6, 2014)

Send registered letter immediately from attorney stating that her purchase of a print does not license use of the image for anything else.
Friendly but clear.
Give her the path to negotiate and purchase use license.


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## Gary A. (Nov 6, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> I never said anything about legal stuff.
> I said.
> 
> 
> ...


*sigh* Again wrong. Not saying anything does not condone or even suggests that "you don't care that she stole your image and is using it for commercial use". Not saying anything only implies that you didn't say anything. Not saying anything neither approves or disapproves of what the other party said. Not saying anything ... is actually ... not saying anything.


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## jsecordphoto (Nov 6, 2014)

yeah, when I said you should've said something immediately, I didn't mean that because you didn't you're now SOL. I just don't understand why you wouldn't immediately speak up. I would've had a hard time not laughing in her face to be honest


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## Light Guru (Nov 6, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Light Guru said:
> 
> 
> > I never said anything about legal stuff.
> ...



I disagree. How is the person supposed to know they can't do things like that if you don't say something.


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## Light Guru (Nov 6, 2014)

jsecordphoto said:


> yeah, when I said you should've said something immediately, I didn't mean that because you didn't you're now SOL. I just don't understand why you wouldn't immediately speak up. I would've had a hard time not laughing in her face to be honest



I don't get why the person would not say anything ether.  It seams really odd.


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## tirediron (Nov 7, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Light Guru said:
> 
> 
> > I never said anything about legal stuff.
> ...


Yes and no... the concept in question is "implied consent".   Gary is absolutely right in that not having said anything doesn't change anything in terms of responsibility, HOWEVER, if the matter did go to court, a judge might view the fact that nothing was said at the time as impied consent and take that into account when considering what, if any damages to award.


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## tirediron (Nov 7, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> jsecordphoto said:
> 
> 
> > yeah, when I said you should've said something immediately, I didn't mean that because you didn't you're now SOL. I just don't understand why you wouldn't immediately speak up. I would've had a hard time not laughing in her face to be honest
> ...


 Surprise?  I have to admit that in the same circumstance I too might well be trying to figure out just what to say...


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## ottor (Nov 7, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Light Guru said:
> 
> 
> > jsecordphoto said:
> ...



I'd like to put this subject of me not saying anything to rest ....... All I can say is that it wasn't an emergency situation, and I knew I could revisit this once I had better info.  It was such a bizarre situation anyway, and she was down the hall before I could compile all my thoughts..  I chose to just walk out and research my options at a later time..  I think I'll write her a letter explaining what she can/can't do with an image, and see what her response will be.  She's on a limited income, so I don't' think that a settlement that would include giving me credit on the website and the brochures would be too unreasonable.  It's possible that this could turn out to be a good thing - if those brochures reach as many as she stated, as well as her website, my name and website associated with that image could bring in more business than what she could afford in the first place.

30 years collecting Child Support, as well as being a former Law Enforcement officer taught me the ability to speak my mind when called for, and also some restraint at the proper times.  I certainly don't have a problem speaking out when warranted.    I just felt that "At that time", it wouldn't be productive to bring up a new subject that she obviously didn't understand.  Besides ...... she needed her medicine.  ;-)


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## The_Traveler (Nov 7, 2014)

Considering that you are probably a robust male and you portrayed her as a feeble old woman, my bet is that you could chase her down, known her over and deliver a couple of hard boots to the ribs and settle that situation pretty quick - particularly if her back was turned.
That'll fix her.


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## snowbear (Nov 7, 2014)

Go back to her place and take her walker.  That will give you somethingtang


The_Traveler said:


> Considering that you are probably a robust male and you portrayed her as a feeble old woman, my bet is that you could chase her down, known her over and deliver a couple of hard boots to the ribs and settle that situation pretty quick - particularly if her back was turned.
> That'll fix her.



And take her walker just in case she tries it again.


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## ottor (Nov 7, 2014)

I don't think I'd try and take that walker without backup...  She knew how to 'grip' it...


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## photoguy99 (Nov 7, 2014)

When a group of young toughs move in on a defenseless old person with the light of violence in their eyes...

Well, there's really only one place the movie can go, isn't there? I'd stick with mail.


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## Gary A. (Nov 8, 2014)

Light Guru said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > Light Guru said:
> ...


Using the intellectual property of another for commercial purposes requires the 'consent' of the owner of the intellectual property. Once again, _*Not saying anything is not consent*_. The elderly lady is saddled with obtaining the burden of consent, not the owner.


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## Gary A. (Nov 8, 2014)

tirediron said:


> Gary A. said:
> 
> 
> > Light Guru said:
> ...


I don't think ottor's initial silence constitutes a case of implied consent. But it's not what I think, it's what the court thinks.


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## Light Guru (Nov 8, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Light Guru said:
> 
> 
> > Gary A. said:
> ...



Again I'm NOT talking about if the old lady can still be held legally responsible. You are absolutely correct on that part.  I NEVER said the person who stole the work could not still be made held accountable. 

I'm talking about the importance of informing others that they cannot just take another persons work and use it for their own commercial purposes.  If you don't say something they stay ignorant and they will keep doing it.


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## BananaRepublic (Nov 8, 2014)

ottor said:


> Camera club had a showing at the local Art Center/Gallery - I had 8 photos displayed, and all for sale.  We had a 'Meet the artists" reception and I was approached by a (very) elderly lady using a walker.. (80++ yrs old).  She said that she loved the colors of this specific photo, and would be interested in purchasing it.  She stated it would match her living room decor perfectly, but can't get it until her SSA comes in at the end of the month...  Not a problem, and I ordered it from the lab.
> 
> 10/30 I delivered it to her home.... a very cluttered, disorganized  living room, and my first thought was "Eccentric"..  She had me hang it on her wall, and commented how lovely it was, and then gave me a check for payment in full.....  Then .... she turned into a raging lion of a business woman !!  She stated that she had a website project and brochure project going for Physical Therapists, and my photograph will make a beautiful background for both ... She then whipped out her cell phone and showed me an image of _my photo_ already on her phone, with all the logo's and type already designed.  Apparently she showed up at the gallery and took a cell phone shot of my photograph, and used photoshop to design this brochure!   She predicted that the brochures will reach over 10,000 therapists ... and the website is almost ready to go.  Then, just as sudden, she thanked me for coming over and delivering the photo, turned around, and - using her walker - shuffled slowly off down the hall stating she had to take her medicine.
> 
> ...



Hack her website


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## ottor (Nov 10, 2014)

Update of situation ....... I called her with my concerns, and after about 10 minutes, and her agreeing to _absolutely everything_ *without any questions,* I felt that she didn't understand completely and I didn't want to leave the  impression of having taking advantage of her.  I asked if she had any other friends or relatives that we could bring in and talk all together and possibly advise her.  She mentioned her son.  Well, the Son, client and I met over the weekend and came to this agreement.  I proposed a Licencing agreement for, in exchange of $1325, she could use the image in the brochures and web page for a period of 1 year. After that, she could no longer create or distribute any media that contained that photo, and the website photo would need to be replaced.  They both agreed, and the agreement is being drawn up this week.   

All is well..  

R


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## fotomonkey (Nov 10, 2014)

Glad it worked out.


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