# Model dilemma - help appreciated



## Reefman (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm stepping up from a compact and whilst I had a film slr years ago I've never had a dslr and after ruling out compact system and the Pentax K5 and Nikon d7000 I'm torn between the new 650d, the 60d or even the 7d

Other than general family shots I want to get into macro work, wildlife and potentially some action shots as well as images of my reef aquarium and its inhabitants.  Video isn't really a priority and I have a budget of around £1500 for the system

My dilemma is which is the better camera for stills work not video and would any suit my needs.

As I see it the 650 is the latest tech, has the hybrid a/f for better live view and video, touchscreen and a burst rate close to the 60d and is smaller and lighter

On the other hand the 60d has a better build, slightly better burst rate, larger buffer size, better viewfinder, top lcd and more direct access buttons.

The 7d produces better IQ than both the above and better burst, better a/f and more settings/controls for an advanced user though maybe more difficult to use for a novice in order to get good quality images??

Will the 650 allow me to take action shots and do the wildlife stuff I want?

Will the new hybrid a/f system compromise focus speed when using the v/f and non stm lenses?

Will the live view a/f of the 650 better that of both the 60 and 7d

In real world shooting how much difference does the buffer size make

I'm thinking of the following lenses to compliment any of the bodies

Canon 15-85 

Tamron 70-300 Di VC USD zoom or Canon 70-300 IS USM or Canon 50-250mm

Is either of the 300s worth the premium over the 50-250

and

either the tokina 2.8 100mm Macro or tamron 90mm macro or the Canon 100mm


All comments and thoughts most welcome


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## jed_rollins (Jul 3, 2012)

The 7D is the hands down winner, the burst rate and better construction alone should be a reason to go with that. The only downside is the slight price difference. On your questions... I coundnt imagine a time when you would use live view, unless sometimes when shooting macro, but the af system on the 7D is killer, and can even hold up to the flagship 1DX. And buffer size may be a big deal of you're one of those wildlife photogs who shoot animals like a football game (lots of long bursts), 7D is still the best option!
As for lenses... For wildlife there is no substitute for pure focal length, so go with the longest damn lens you can manage. for macro... My go to lens is the 100 2.8L from Canon. Hope this helps you out a bit! Best of luck to ya!
Cheers,
Jed


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## Hobbytog (Jul 3, 2012)

+1 for what jed_rollins says....... My long lens is the Sigma 120-400mm. Heavy but good VFM and as Jed I use he Canon 100 f2.8 L for macro. My Camera is the 600D


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## Reefman (Jul 3, 2012)

I guess my concern with the 7d would be its complexity and being beyond my capabilities to get good images


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## jaomul (Jul 3, 2012)

Firstly the 7d won't produce better images than the 60d as they share a sensor. As an action camera the 7d is better due a very good focus and burst rate which is even about to improve with an update. Having had a 50d which shares the same af system as the 60d i would say its very good. I wouldn't rule out the 60d if 5 fps is enough fir your needs. Id say that flip screen is also nice to have. Having said this the 7d is better and better built so if money isn't an issue....


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## imagesliveon (Jul 3, 2012)

Ive just upgraded from my 400D to a 7D

The 7D with a 24-105 L series lens just cost me £1450 BRAND NEW!! 

PM me if you want details..

Regards


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## Reefman (Jul 3, 2012)

I could stretch to the 7d with the 15-85 and Tammy 300 and wait to get the macro - I'm just worried about how difficult it may be to get decent shots - isn't the focusing really hard to set up - 

Its getting an upgrade soon isn't it - what extras will that offer?

Can get 7d and both zooms for £1560 which seems reasonable or will the prices drop once the upgrade is out


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## unpopular (Jul 3, 2012)

LMAO. I was imagining pretty girls with too many issues.


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## Reefman (Jul 3, 2012)

unpopular said:


> LMAO. I was imagining pretty girls with too many issues.



If only - and surely that would be 'DD'


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## Overread (Jul 3, 2012)

The cameras will all have about the same level of complexity to use. The 7D has a couple of auto editing features for JPEGs which are not needed by default and it has a more customisable and advanced AF system than the others. However outside of that the basic operation of all 3 cameras is the same - you've the aperture, the shutter speed and the ISO. Those 3 settings will determine the exposure of your shot each and every time (along with the light of course). 

So there won't be much more difficulty to the 7D over the entry level bodies - once you get past the few bells and whistle names of auto editing features. 

The AF is something that works well right out of the box - granted you can customise it more and you'll be easily able to do this once you get the hang of it, but its something you can leave and learn as you get more confident. 


The 7D has the better, more rugged build and the superior AF - all in all its a cut above the others (there is also a firmwire update coming out for it which is enhancing some auto editing and control features including:
a) increased RAW shooting burst rate - not faster FPS, but you get a bigger buffer so you can shoot constantly for longer
b) manual audio volume recording for video - present in the others 
c) limits for auto ISO - again another feature present in other Canon cameras. 


All that said; glass is going to be the big difference, quality glass makes a massive change to things. Good glass, even on a rebel camera body can deliver fantastic results; whilst all that advanced AF control is nothing if the lens is cheaper and not able to keep up. So do consider how long it will take to save for some good lenses for the system - if its going to be a very long time you might want to look to focusing more of your budget on glass and less on the body at this early stage.


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## Reefman (Jul 4, 2012)

Do you not think the lenses mentioned are good enough ?  Any other recommendations for the focal lengths I'm considering?

To get better glass I'd have to go with either the 650 or 60d 

i'm told that the 650 will deliver better jpeg images as it has the Digic 5 and that the new a/f system will deliver better focusing on moving objects than even the 60d

edit - will the lenses I've mentioned make the 650 feel unbalanced


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## morganza (Jul 4, 2012)

jed_rollins said:


> The 7D is the hands down winner, the burst rate and better construction alone should be a reason to go with that. The only downside is the slight price difference. On your questions... I coundnt imagine a time when you would use live view, unless sometimes when shooting macro, but the af system on the 7D is killer, and can even hold up to the flagship 1DX. And buffer size may be a big deal of you're one of those wildlife photogs who shoot animals like a football game (lots of long bursts), 7D is still the best option!
> As for lenses... For wildlife there is no substitute for pure focal length, so go with the longest damn lens you can manage. for macro... My go to lens is the 100 2.8L from Canon. Hope this helps you out a bit! Best of luck to ya!
> Cheers,
> Jed



After reading this, I agree with this opinion.


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## Reefman (Jul 5, 2012)

Just found full review of 650 and its not as positivesas Id thought it would be  especially with reference to noise and it scores less overall and on IQ than both 60d and 7d

Ive now decided to go for either 60 or 7d

Would my lenses still be ok with 7d ?  Ive also heard  the canon  17-55 f2.8 is a good choice


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## Reefman (Jul 9, 2012)

Anyone anything to add ?

Been back and tried the 60d with a bigger lens and there isn't that much difference in weight so that not a concern.

The lack of scene modes may be worry initially as is getting to grips with the a/f system.  I understand shares the same battery as the 60d but doesn't take as many shots on a full charge.  Don't think I'd miss having a variangle screen but is the lower resolution an issue.

As I see it I think I can learn the 7d and have the peace of mind that the extra functions are there for when I'm skilled/confident enough to use them but with the 60d no matter how my skills grow I can never add those function that I may wish I had.

Can anyone recommend a good book on the 7d?


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## sovietdoc (Jul 9, 2012)

> The 7d produces better IQ than both the above and better burst, better  a/f and more settings/controls for an advanced user though maybe more  difficult to use for a novice in order to get good quality images??



I can take a 1D X (super pro expensive camera), put it in full auto mode, and hand it over to my grandma to take high quality pictures.  I guess the size and weight might be of an issue though..

All cameras are easy to use doesnt matter how expensive they are.  With any camera you can start taking good photos, usually more expensive semi and pro cameras have higher headroom in being able to do some nice things, but that doesn't mean they're very hard to use to start off with.  

If you have the money for either 650D, 60D or 7D, this shouldn't even be a hard decision.  7D all the way.


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## TCampbell (Jul 9, 2012)

Another "Which camera should I choose:  (a) a really good camera, (b) a really good camera, or (c) a really good camera?"

Here's the deal:  All three cameras use Canon's 18mp sensor -- no change there.  

The 7D is a either a high-end pro-sumer body or a low-end pro body (depending on who you talk to).  But the main advantages of the 7D are it's SPEED.  It's a very fast camera.  It has dual DIGIC IV processors.  It can shoot in continuous burst mode at 8 frames per second.  It has a 19 point auto-focus sensor array and all 19 points are "cross type".  Instead of using SD cards, it uses the larger CF card standard (CF cards have a data transfer speed near 100 MBps whereas SD cards top out somewhere around 20, but most are around 10.)  The 7D has a magnesium alloy body (metal) and is VERY durable.  It's also weather-sealed.  This is a workhorse camera and particularly well suited if you are shooting scenes with fast action (action wildlife photography or sports, etc.)

The 60D is a mid-range pro-sumer body.  It has controls laid out a lot like the pro bodies with a front selection wheel and a rear selection dial.  It has an LCD panel on top just like the 7D has.   It is weather sealed much like the 7D, but... rather than being a magnesium alloy (metal) body it uses a polycarbonate (plastic) body.   It also only has a single DIGIC IV processor, a slower continuous burst rate, and uses SD cards instead of CF cards.  In other words it's has the "feel" of a pro body in terms of how controls are laid out, but the weight of a Rebel body.  It has the scene-based shooting modes (something pros would never use, but consumers find friendly to use.)   The auto-focus array is only 9 points but all 9 points are "cross type".  It has the swing-out LCD screen on the back which is nice for video (but you said you didn't really care about video.)

The 650D is a "Rebel" body.  As a "Rebel" it's one of Canon's entry-level bodies... although it is the highest end of the Rebel line.  This year, Canon gave it a 9 point AF array where all 9 points are "cross type" (previous Rebels only get 1 single center AF point that's cross-type and the rest of the AF points only perform phase-detect auto-focus in one axis only.)  They also gave it a capacitive touch-sensive display (sort of like an iPhone) making it a bit easier to operate (also a bit easier to smudge up full of fingerprints.)  Rebel bodies do NOT have rear selection dials -- they only have the front selection wheel.  This means some operations which are quick and fluid to dial in on a 60D or 7D require pressing extra buttons on a Rebel body.  They also switched from the DIGIC IV (which they'v been using for the past 4-5 years) to the new DIGIC V.  The DIGIC V is a much faster processor but also improves the image processing.  As a Rebel, it is NOT weather-sealed.  

The 7D and 60D are getting close to the point where Canon should be announcement replacements soon.  They announced the replacement of the 5D II a few months ago.  Generally speaking, Canon won't allow a current "Rebel" to be better than a mid-range pro-sumer body (like the 60D) and they won't let a mid-range pro-sumer body be better than a pro body (like the 7D).  Although from time to time, it gets pretty close.  I'd say the difference between the 650D and 60D are now at that point, but the 7D is clearly a category above (especially if you need a camera to shoot action.)


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## Reefman (Jul 15, 2012)

Well I've gone and done it and the 7d with 15-85 is ordered with the Tamron 70-300 plus a 16gb Sandisk 60mb card


I now need a bag and possibly a replacement for the neck strap - are there any other  things I need from the off


Thanks to everyone for your comments all much appreciated and I'm happy I've made the correct decision


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## Photogaz (Jul 16, 2012)

The 7D should suit you well I think


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## Reefman (Jul 17, 2012)

I really hop so should be here before noon today and cant wait to get my hand on it - and its a sunny day too


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## rokvi (Jul 17, 2012)

Glad you went with the 7D as it sounds like you are the type to have buyer remorse.


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## Reefman (Jul 18, 2012)

Yeah more than likely  

I'm now the proud owner of a 7d didnt get much chance to play with it yesterday  by the time it was delivered

Just need to work out all those menus and buttons - where did I put the manual?

Must sort a bag and replacement strap out its heavy on the old neck with the Tamron


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