# Constructive Criticsm on TPF



## Robin Usagani (Apr 23, 2011)

I am active on 2 forums. I feel like the photos people say "nice job, good, amazing" on TPF, most of them will probably have more negative CCs on the other forum. Perhaps we are getting soft? Thats why I like a few guys here who are brutally honest when they give out CCs. Sometimes I post stuff here and people say nice job, beautiful.. yada yada yada, then I post it on other forum people do not like it as much. But personally I kinda agree with the CCs on other forum. I think we all need to grow thicker skin and start giving honest CCs? Sometime I see a thread and people already give nice CCs and I feel like an ass if I start giving negative CCs. So most of the time I just dont post.  Hell, most of the time people dont accept it very well anyway when I say negative CCs. Thoughts?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Sometime I see a thread and people already give nice CCs and I feel like an ass if I start giving negative CCs.


 
I have no problem asking why people think the image(s) is nice, or perfect. I don't often get a response though. 

But like you, I will typically just move along.

Is your "other forum" made up of people who are well past the "justgotmyfirstdslrandthesearemyveryfirstpicturesandiamgoingprotomorrow" stage?


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 23, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Is your "other forum" made up of people who are well past the "justgotmyfirstdslrandthesearemyveryfirstpicturesandiamgoingprotomorrow" stage?


Yup, those guys are super talented. I hardly ever post any pictures there. I test the water here first hahah JK.  I do post there but the responses are never that good which I expect with my mediocre photos.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

Sounds like there is the potential to learn a hellava lot more there, than you will here.

FredMiranda Forum?


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## e.rose (Apr 23, 2011)

I've noticed some fun things happening here lately.  First there were all the ridiculous confrontations that happened over ridiculous things from December until recently.  I think it's calmed down a bit, but what do I know... I've been missing for a little bit.  And even when I was "here" I was barely paying attention, haha.

I've noticed what you mean about the C&C though.  While I was guilty of it yesterday, because I didn't currently posses the mental capability to determine *why* I liked an image at 3am, I generally like to give and receive more constructive criticism.

I stopped giving it as much, because like you said, it seems like a lot of the new people don't really take kindly to it... even when they *ask* for "honest" opinions.

I know that, while getting complimented is nice, I actually prefer the "This is bad... you need to fix this... what the hell were you thinking with that...almost, but not quite...", kind of criticism, haha.  It's what helped me improve and what continues to help me improve.  But maybe that's not what everyone is after here.  ::shrugs::


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## e.rose (Apr 23, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Is your "other forum" made up of people who are well past the "justgotmyfirstdslrandthesearemyveryfirstpicturesandiamgoingprotomorrow" stage?
> ...


 
Where is this "other" forum you speak of?


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## kundalini (Apr 23, 2011)

I've cut my photo forum activity down to two sites.  I use the other one to learn and get correct information.  I use this one because......... I dunno, mostly because it was my first?  My patience is growing thin here...... once again.


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## ghache (Apr 23, 2011)

This place is fun! I post my stuff here once in while but i take into consideration "Constructive Criticsm" from the real life photographers i know, This place if full of "Unknown" photographers, beginner or with 40 year of experience with nothing much to show, who are full of themself, Welcome to the interwebz.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 23, 2011)

e.rose said:


> I've noticed what you mean about the C&C though.  While I was guilty of it yesterday, because I didn't currently posses the mental capability to determine *why* I liked an image at 3am, I generally like to give and receive more constructive criticism.



I think that you have hit upon exactly the point.  Most people here, being new photographer have no concept of what makes a good photo.  They experience photos like they experience food, in totality, only the response to it without any knowledge of the ingredients or how it is made.

Many, if not most, older photographers have gone through the wrestling with manual exposure, manual focus and darkroom work and have learned by hands-on experience how to control the factors in images and thus have experienced and absorbed the concepts.

Photography is art and anyone's abilities to produce good photos depend on knowledge, skills, experience and talent. Digital cameras are smart enough to fake some of the skill and experience stuff (exposure, focus, etc) for new photographers but cameras can't supply knowledge and talent.

The best way to get better as a photographer is to look at well-done pictures and try to dis-assemble them to understand all the factors that make them good. By doing so, you can internalize the lessons and apply it to your own work.

Recently a relatively new photographer asked if I could be his mentor and my reply is posted here.



> I have mixed feelings about mentoring because I haven't had much success in the past. I mentor two people in real life and it seems that, beyond the technical help I can give them, they need to grow themselves by looking at 'good' pictures and them understanding what makes them good and so developing an eye.
> 
> You say that "I see something that I find intriguing, but most of the time, I don't know why. I take a picture and when I get home the picture may or may not (most likely, not) capture whatever it was the drew me to take a shot in the first place."
> 
> ...



Just as a chef needs to know how to create good food, any artist needs to know his art.
And that doesn't mean just working the camera.

It is frustrating to give critique to someone who has no clue and no experience and has done no work to learn anything. There is no common knowledge base and vocabulary. 

My belief is that anyone will only go so far here just because good knowledgeable photographers who are willing to pitch in and help others are few compared to the swarms of beginners who have a dslr and some bare skills with PS and think that makes them able to be a great photographer in a week or so.


Lew


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

ghache said:


> This place is fun! I post my stuff here once in while but i take into consideration "Constructive Criticsm" from the real life photographers i know, This place if full of "Unknown" photographers, beginner or with 40 year of experience with nothing much to show, who are full of themself, Welcome to the interwebz.



Yeah, cuz really awesome "known" photographers like to visit photo forums. Besides, you get what you pay for.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> e.rose said:
> 
> 
> > I've noticed what you mean about the C&C though. While I was guilty of it yesterday, because I didn't currently posses the mental capability to determine *why* I liked an image at 3am, I generally like to give and receive more constructive criticism.
> ...


Add to that, from what I see, very few people are willing to think about what style of photography they are doing.
I look at most things as "fine art" images. The simple question of, "who would want this on their wall, and why" should be answered.
Most images posted are merely "artsy" documentary. Some people are dabbling into fashion, editorial, photojournalism, portraiture, etc.
Each of these areas have varied, specific needs for success. Personally, I find "fine art" imagery the most relaxed in terms of subject and feel, yet the hardest to be really good at, to the point of being sellable.

Photojournalism, on the other hand, can be more relaxed with composition, but it MUST tell the story. If the image needs further explanaition, it fails, for the most part.

Portraiture, has equal weight in my mind, as far as composition and story telling (engagement/wedding pictures). Even head shots. A head shot can give a real sense of the person and be engaging, if not, they are just documentary.


In the end, what are we to base critique on? That you took a nice picture for your skill level, or took a picture I would hang on my wall?


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## The_Traveler (Apr 23, 2011)

ghache said:


> This place is fun! I post my stuff here once in while but i take into consideration "Constructive Criticsm" from the real life photographers i know, This place if full of "Unknown" photographers, beginner or with 40 year of experience with nothing much to show, who are full of themself, Welcome to the interwebz.



This kind of comment can be classified  as passive-aggressive behavior - a way of being nasty about people without actually confronting them.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 23, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Add to that, from what I see, very few people are willing to think about what style of photography they are doing.
> 
> They haven't gotten to that point yet. Come on, think of the training you have and that of the average member here...
> 
> ...



That, to me, is the ultimate test. The only real test. If no one wants to hang it on their wall, is it any good? Not in my mind, even if they reject my work.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 23, 2011)

There are only really two kinds of pictures that interest me - people and street or PJ.

Landscapes rarely show me anything I haven't seen a million times before and most formal portraiture you might as well have one picture and just switch out the heads.


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## Big Mike (Apr 23, 2011)

As some of the older members here can attest to, we have tried several times and with several methods to have a 'critique' section...and each time, it either floundered or outright failed.  

As has been mentioned, the problem is largely the 'unhelpful comment'....."Great Shot" etc.  But how do we prevent those replies from overwhelming the actual helpful critiques?  We tried a section where the unhelpful comments were moderated out...but it was a whole lot of work because the majority of members don't bother to learn the rules...and all sorts of bad feelings were created because it was left to moderators to decide if a reply was 'good enough'.
We also tried a critique section that had a certain few members designated to be critiquers...but that was also a lot of work for those few members and it also requires those asking for critique, to put in more effort that just posting up an image...which few of them did...so another fail.  

So now we are left with just the image galleries and no specific critique section.  Members often ask for critique, and sometimes it's given...although the unhelpful comments are still abundant.  And like before, part of the problem is that most of the members that ask for critique, don't put the effort into the request...that is necessary (or helpful) for someone to give a proper critique.  

So if anyone has some good ideas, please share them.  But also try to run a simulation in your head, keeping in mind that 83% of the members here are still at the "justgotmyfirstdslrandthesearemyveryfirstpicturesandiamgoingprotomorrow" stage.

And yes, many members will reach the stage where there are fewer and fewer members here, from whom they can really learn...and that's fine.  There are plenty of other resources on the interwebs.  But I do think there are still benefits to hanging around here.  Myself, I've found that I love to teach those who are at an entry level...so this forum is great for me....but I do still learn a few things...and of course, I am a member on several other sites.


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## KmH (Apr 23, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> It is frustrating to give critique to someone who has no clue and no experience and has done no work to learn anything. There is no common knowledge base and vocabulary.
> 
> 
> Lew


 Amen brother! And not just new members.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Add to that, from what I see, very few people are willing to think about what style of photography they are doing.
> ...


 
"If no one wants to hang it on their wall, is it any good?" 

Hmmmm...is it that simple?


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## bentcountershaft (Apr 23, 2011)

Bitter, I'm going to have to C&C your choice of green text in that last one.  That hurt my eyes.  Maybe you're feeling Christmasy or something but I'm just not digging it.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> As some of the older members here can attest to, we have tried several times and with several methods to have a 'critique' section...and each time, it either floundered or outright failed.
> 
> As has been mentioned, the problem is largely the 'unhelpful comment'....."Great Shot" etc.  But how do we prevent those replies from overwhelming the actual helpful critiques?  We tried a section where the unhelpful comments were moderated out...but it was a whole lot of work because the majority of members don't bother to learn the rules...and all sorts of bad feelings were created because it was left to moderators to decide if a reply was 'good enough'.
> We also tried a critique section that had a certain few members designated to be critiquers...but that was also a lot of work for those few members and it also requires those asking for critique, to put in more effort that just posting up an image...which few of them did...so another fail.
> ...


 
There is no solution to the "problem".
New people rarely take the time to read stickies. Rarely seem to "look around" before posting. But then, I did look around with my first critique post, and the examples I saw had seven or eight images, so I followed suit. :lmao: Another thing I see with forums like this one, is the level of selfishness, or desire for hand holding. I see older members come and ask a question that has been asked nearly every week. An example would be calibration and colorspace issues. But it's easier to post a question and get a simple answer, than to do any research and actually learn the why's and how's of the issue. I don't really care though. I guess it's better to get the simple fix and maintain a shallow knowledge base, than have a fuller understanding and know your ****. I have learned so much by reading everyone elses posts that I rarely ever need to ask a question, or I already knew what to do when a given situation arose. And for that, I thank you all!

Fora are amazing creatures. Everyone can use them how they see fit, and have their needs met, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. That also makes them fun 

I still want to find a way to monetize the forum and collect consulting fees. I could make a fortune off Sabrina alone.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 23, 2011)

bentcountershaft said:


> Bitter, I'm going to have to C&C your choice of green text in that last one.  That hurt my eyes.  Maybe you're feeling Christmasy or something but I'm just not digging it.


 I was going for extreme contrast, rather than something more pleasing. :lmao:


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 23, 2011)

I didn't find the green that bright. Are you sure you are on a calibrated monitor?



Bitter Jeweler said:


> bentcountershaft said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter, I'm going to have to C&C your choice of green text in that last one.  That hurt my eyes.  Maybe you're feeling Christmasy or something but I'm just not digging it.
> ...


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## bentcountershaft (Apr 23, 2011)

No, my monitor isn't calibrated.  I think I'll go start a thread asking what people recommend and while I'm at it which laptop is the bestest for editing.


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## ghache (Apr 23, 2011)

bentcountershaft said:


> No, my monitor isn't calibrated. I think I'll go start a thread asking what people recommend and while I'm at it which laptop is the bestest for editing.




 I wouldnt edit a word document on a laptop :lmao:


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## imagemaker46 (Apr 23, 2011)

I do all my editing on a laptop. It doesn't matter how calibrated a monitor is when the photo is sent to the client, they are using all different monitors, some calibrated and some not.  I've always found it a waste of time trying to get three laptops and a desktop to all look the same.


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## mikehaugen (Apr 23, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I didn't find the green that bright. Are you sure you are on a calibrated monitor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I can't tell, DOS doesn't show me colors.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 23, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> So if anyone has some good ideas, please share them.




Ask 10 or 20 seasoned members to commit to doing 2 or 3 C/C a week.
When you see a question that has been asked before, give the poster a link to the search and lock the thread.
Have a code of conduct that requires people to respect other members and their work and then enforce it.
Step in when a thread goes off track and say something. If it stays off track and yelling results, pull it into the mod board for a while.

I'm a mod on a site where we have rules 2,3 and 4.
As a result, we have an orderly, fun pleasant group.


And, oh yes, increase the size of pictures that can be posted. A max of 800 wide is ridiculous when most people use much higher res monitors.
Tiny pictures are not conducive to smart C/C. Can't see detail, dof, etc


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## molested_cow (Apr 23, 2011)

The question is, can you handle the truth?


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## BlackSheep (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm still very new around here, so I hope that you guys don't mind me budding in. I have a question - my understanding has been that unless someone specifically asks for C&C, then they really don't want anything more than the "unhelpful" feedback, is that correct?

As for having a critique section, The Traveler's suggestion of having 10-20 seasoned members doing critiques made me think of this: another non-photo forum that I am on has something similar - it's a horse forum, and there is one section that is called "Ask the vet" - people can post their questions, but no-one but the vet can answer them. It works very well, would something like that work for here as well? Here's the link so you can see what I mean - Ask the Vet - EMG Equestrian Community.


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## usayit (Apr 23, 2011)

The best resource for critique I have found is the same that has been around since the beginning.... local clubs and organizations.

To participate, requires effort, time, membership dues, and One On One interaction with PEOPLE of similar interests but widely varied viewpoints.   It cannotbe easily substituted with the faceless and effortles interweb free forum.   

This is apparent from the failed attempts of those running this place as Big Mike pointed out.... valient effort as it was.   What you guys have to understand is that epectations of this format is way to frakin high....

I see no problem with seeing a bunch of serious critiques mixed in with a bunch of simple kudos in a single thread.... unless some feel their responses are that of such high value that it is damning to have it share space.  For those, the problem is with the individual not the forum.


Mike probably remembers the good ol times when this place was a blast....  the members that contributed the most where not professionals or well established artists.  People who didnt take things soooo seriously.  They were here to have fun, learn and discuss.   They understood that any need for a serious critique beyond here was available elsewhere.....  expectations understood.  


i have a hard time believing that professionals of the highest calibre have the time nor the motivation to participate here.....


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## laffles (Apr 24, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> There are only really two kinds of pictures that interest me - people and street or PJ.
> 
> Landscapes rarely show me anything I haven't seen a million times before and most formal portraiture you might as well have one picture and just switch out the heads.



I completely agree with this - Though I've only had my DSLR a few months, I've always been interested in photography, I'v been a member of an art forum for about 5 years there are a lot of photographers there as well as illustrators etc, and the amount of flowers/landscapes etc that are posted, I just don't see the appeal in taking them, I understand they can be composed well, and be aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but nothing makes you want to sit and stare.. Street photography on the other hand, I just love it, there's always something new and interesting, it's never gets samey.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 24, 2011)

usayit said:


> The best resource for critique I have found is the same that has been around since the beginning.... local clubs and organizations.
> 
> To participate, requires effort, time, membership dues, and One On One interaction with PEOPLE of similar interests but widely varied viewpoints.   It cannotbe easily substituted with the faceless and effortles interweb free forum.
> 
> ...



OTOH, I remember the times after I joined when there was a group of jerks who thought that, because they didn't want to participate in a serious discussion, nobody should and they would break into any discussion with a string of posts in a specific attempt to break it up. Thankfully, the worst offenders are gone

It doesn't make any sense to me that one would find better critique quickly in the average club than in a good community. Clubs meet every so often and get a selection of the people in the neighborhood while pictures online get seen by lots of people.

I belong to several of the largest, longest-lived and most active clubs in the US - the Baltimore Camera Club, the Bowie-Crofton Camera Club and the National Institutes of Health Camera Club and the people I meet there don't have the variety and interest in my areas that I can meet on line. 

All that being said, an online group doesn't have to be a kindergarden and I think TPF can be better. But it takes an effort on the part of teh mods and a corre of people who will work at it.


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## Derrel (Apr 24, 2011)

What I find most annoying are the people who will step in after a C&C has been given, and immediately attack, in defense of the recipient of the C&C. Not in defense of his or her photographs, but in defense of the individual--almost as if hearing the tough truth about a lousy photo or two might cause emotional scarring for life. These do-gooders have done more to kill thorough, honest C&C than almost any other group of people.


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## usayit (Apr 24, 2011)

yes... in an average club but I guess that means its time to search for another local club.  Things like what Traveler brought up and Derrel mention just dont happen as often when you are face to face.  Nine times out of ten, people dont have the guts to be insulting, counter productive, or rude in person.  furthermore, the club itself, because of the personal investment all those involved, are more likely to take action to remove said individual.


My point being, your chances of finding good photographic relationships are far easier in person locally... whether at the local universities or national clubs or the local.  The internet place like these require such little personal involvement that it attracts everyone good and bad.


Yes I agree, there are a far wider variety of people here....... to give different viewpoints...  But more is not always better.

I am one of the oldest surviving members here.....  I have seen it go through many changes... mostly bad.. unfortunately.  What I do know is that if members set their expectations properly and stop taking this place tooo seriously (includes growing thick skin) it becomes a more pleasant place for everyone.  

Asking or pushing for a serious critique here is like asking for medical advice on a chat forum....



again..... way back when this place was awsome, the majority of the contributors that made it thay way, were amateurs looking for mutual enjoyment behind the camera. People who didnt push, get angry, or pissed off because they didnt take this place too seriously.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 24, 2011)

usayit said:


> What I do know is that if members set their expectations properly and stop taking this place tooo seriously (includes growing thick skin) it becomes a more pleasant place for everyone.


 
You've said this several times.
Go to in-person clubs if you want good critique and people need to adjust their expectations.

What should we expect and why can't it be a good place - like others I've been involved with?


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## kundalini (Apr 24, 2011)

Lew,

From what I've gathered from other forums that have a (well run) critique sub-forums is that it is policed (I use that word judicially) and immediate action is taken on posts that do not adhere to the intent and spirit of the critique forum.  Those actions are driven by members, mods and owners.  As much as some of us would like for this to be true here, the fact is that no one wants to take ownership, thus you get the desire of the populace without the umph (backing) of the site admins.  I agree with you 100% that it can be done, but sadly, I doubt that anything will come from the cries of the masses...... sorry, I meant unwashed multitude.


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## dxqcanada (Apr 24, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> As some of the older members here can attest to, we have tried several times and with several methods to have a 'critique' section...and each time, it either floundered or outright failed.


 
What was the problem/failure with a Critique Section ?


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## The_Traveler (Apr 24, 2011)

I would suggest the opposite of a critique section, that every image posted be open to constructive comment and those only for sharing be prominently marked.

This could actually be a photo site rather than a teen social gathering.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 24, 2011)

bentcountershaft said:


> Bitter, I'm going to have to C&C your choice of green text in that last one.  That hurt my eyes.  Maybe you're feeling Christmasy or something but I'm just not digging it.



I'll second that emotion and add that it may have more to do with older eyes than with calibration, lol.





Bitter Jeweler said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



Well, Yes. Why make things more complicated than they are. When it comes to art (commercial is a different animal,) whether people want to buy it or not is the only question. And if they don't, it ain't no good... for your bank account  



Now, to get back to the C&C problem.

There is no real solution on a forum of this size (read, with that wide a range of experience levels and goals,) with a subject that is, for a large part, a matter of opinion and taste. Art, and even commercial photography is an art, is not ruled by science or rules set in stone.

However, art in general and photography in this case is, imo, ruled by the level of attention paid to the details. On a forum that means reading and most people don't seem to read the threads they post answers to. They often don't seem to even read the original post. Or is it a question of their not being able to read...

Either way, it is not going to give the most interesting results. But, as a member, you have a choice. You can try and respond to everything or you can be selective. I choose to respond only to the threads that have potential.


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## The_Traveler (Apr 24, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Either way, it is not going to give the most interesting results. But, as a member, you have a choice. You can try and respond to everything or you can be selective. *I choose to respond only to the threads that have potential*.




Ditto.
I probably say something substantive (or as substantive as I can be) to about 10% of the posts I look at.


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## c.cloudwalker (Apr 24, 2011)

What I really don't get is people who keep coming back here to tell us what a dump this place is :lmao:

It is but so what?  It is the best dump for R&R for my money.

And some of the people who keep coming back to ***** even went and created their own forums.... Give me a break.

I learn something here every time I visit in spite of the problems. No place is perfect but it means very little.


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## skieur (Apr 24, 2011)

dxqcanada said:


> Big Mike said:
> 
> 
> > As some of the older members here can attest to, we have tried several times and with several methods to have a 'critique' section...and each time, it either floundered or outright failed.
> ...


 
The problem was that some of the moderators have a rather "limited" understanding of the nature of critique and therefore were not fully supportive.

skieur


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## digimg (Apr 24, 2011)

bentcountershaft said:


> No, my monitor isn't calibrated.  I think I'll go start a thread asking what people recommend and while I'm at it which laptop is the bestest for editing.


 
Mine is and that green text is hard to read.


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## digimg (Apr 24, 2011)

Derrel said:


> What I find most annoying are the people who will step in after a C&C has been given, and immediately attack, in defense of the recipient of the C&C. Not in defense of his or her photographs, but in defense of the individual--almost as if hearing the tough truth about a lousy photo or two might cause emotional scarring for life. These do-gooders have done more to kill thorough, honest C&C than almost any other group of people.



Sometimes people ask for C&C in a lazy way. They dont offer any insight into what they were trying to do or what the situation was. They dont say how they edited the images and what they like or dislike about the images. Thats kinda aimless so it doesnt encourage much input. Responders get the impression the poster is clueless and vague so they just respond 'nice shot'. They dont like to see posters getting ignored but they dont know what else to say other than restate the basics. On some forums i have built up friendship and undrstandings with photographers that post. I know where they are at and they know that i know. I might post nice shot because i know it was the type of shot they like to achieve. It can be a social thing too.


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## mishele (Apr 24, 2011)

Really.......this thread again?!! People just need to get over the fact that C&C is never going to be perfect w/ the amount of new people coming and going. Just make the best of it. lol


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## kundalini (Apr 24, 2011)

mishele said:


> Really.......this thread again?!! People just need to get over the fact that C&C is never going to be perfect w/ the amount of new people coming and going. Just make the best of it. lol



Absolutely Mish.   But you know what would help to calm the masses?   A blacklight shot.


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## digimg (Apr 24, 2011)

I think there's very little an experienced dedicated photographer will learn from anothers critique on the net. Other than anyones take on how it looks on their screen, it just seems like a lot of projection of personal tastes. The less experienced but egotistical are the worst. They just repeat what they have learned as set in stone.


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## Robin Usagani (Apr 24, 2011)

Ok.. im ready to be brutally honest again on my CCs ahhaha.


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## vtf (Apr 25, 2011)

kundalini said:


> Lew,
> 
> *From what I've gathered from other forums that have a (well run) critique sub-forums is that it is policed (I use that word judicially) and immediate action is taken on posts that do not adhere to the intent and spirit of the critique forum. Those actions are driven by members, mods and owners*. As much as some of us would like for this to be true here, the fact is that no one wants to take ownership, thus you get the desire of the populace without the umph (backing) of the site admins. I agree with you 100% that it can be done, but sadly, I doubt that anything will come from the cries of the masses...... sorry, I meant unwashed multitude.


 
I've seen this during my recent lurkings at POTN, they crack a whip!.


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## molested_cow (Apr 25, 2011)

Here's my take on constructive criticism.

IMO constructive criticism isn't something that denies, defines or dictates. Constructive criticism is something that creates room for the user to improve him/herself, and by improve, I don't mean being told what to do, but lead him to discover his own solution.
That said, I sometimes give very abstract replies(sometimes it may not even seem to be on topic), hoping that the person gets what I mean. If he thinks it's just for laughs, that's great! If he picks up the reason why I craft my reply the way I did, all powers to him. The point is, he needs to be the one realizing it.


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## mishele (Apr 25, 2011)

kundalini said:


> mishele said:
> 
> 
> > Really.......this thread again?!! People just need to get over the fact that C&C is never going to be perfect w/ the amount of new people coming and going. Just make the best of it. lol
> ...



lol Blacklight shots for world peace!!! I think I've found my calling!!


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## jake337 (Apr 25, 2011)

KmH said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > It is frustrating to give critique to someone who has no clue and no experience and has done no work to learn anything. There is no common knowledge base and vocabulary.
> ...


 
This is why I don't ask for critique.  Not because I don't want it.  I am just well aware that, at my skill level, I won't understand most of what is being told.  Especially when It comes to post production.  I choose to read many other posts and see what is being critiqued in those pictures and how those critiques may or may not create a better image.  Next I try to bring what I'm learning into the photographs that I take.  

Just looking for expressions and moments to capture.  I am hoping to change that this summer with some fun family "shoots"!  

Next, I do not critique others work that much because I have not yet developed the eye.
I do realize this is a fault in my learning process and that I really need to start, seriously, doing more in depth critique of others work in order to excell at mine.


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## mommyphotog (Apr 25, 2011)

I have to say that I'm very new and really do like the cc. I look to you guys to be hosnest because family and friends tent to be less so. Please keep posting honest cc. How else are we to learn?


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## CCericola (Apr 25, 2011)

TPF is not a professional photography forum so I see a lot of C&C from people who don't really understand what a critique is. Not that it is a bad thing to just say what you feel. I find that more experienced photographers, art students and professional artists tend to critique better because they are used to it. Especially those who have years of critique experience in college/Art school. Heck, critique ability was a percentage of your grade in all my studio art classes. That said, I think TPF is a good place to get the opinions of non-artists. These are the people that buy photography/art.


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## KmH (Apr 25, 2011)

jake337 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...


Which is why addng a link or 2 to information related to the critique is so helpful.


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## AverageJoe (Apr 25, 2011)

What about using a critique template that is standardized:

Just an example:

EXPOSURE:
Feedback on exposure goes here...

FRAMING:
Feedback on framing here...

SUBJECT MATTER:
Feedback on subject matter goes here...

OVERALL:
Last impressions could go here...


Could be similar to how beeradvocate users rate beer.
And once people start using the templates it should catch on.

Thoughts?


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## bigtwinky (Apr 25, 2011)

I think what TPF needs is some form of Pact that will detail how we should and will give CC on.
We can all add in our signatures that "We support the Pact" with a link to the Pact so everyone can read it in it's glory.
I'm sure that would work....


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## Bitter Jeweler (Apr 25, 2011)

:lmao:


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## mishele (Apr 25, 2011)

lol What a great idea Big!!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of that??!! :greenpbl:


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## bigtwinky (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm usually the idea guy.... bunch of slackers


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## usayit (Apr 26, 2011)




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## Overread (Apr 26, 2011)

What I think we really need is a ticket system  -- limiting how many C&C debate threads members are allowed to take part in per year. That way we can get a bit of fresh air in these debate threads 



Though I'm willing to waver the tickets for more backlitshots


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## ArizonaSun (Apr 29, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Thats because art of any form is subjective. Its not that people are getting soft,


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## myvinyl333 (May 1, 2011)

After reading every post on the thread (word for word, Green and Red LOL) I want to thank everyone who have given me HONEST C&C. I have been shooting for 14 months. Fourteen months from now I hope to be better in part to HONEST C&C, hopefully on TPF.:thumbup:
jorge


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## The_Traveler (May 5, 2011)

myvinyl333 said:


> After reading every post on the thread (word for word, Green and Red LOL) I want to thank everyone who have given me HONEST C&C. I have been shooting for 14 months. Fourteen months from now I hope to be better in part to HONEST C&C, hopefully on TPF.:thumbup:
> jorge


 


edwin47 said:


> I generally like to give and receive more _constructive criticism_.



This has been said before in more detail by much more trustworthy and respected members than myself but let me repeat my own version here.
*
The best ways to get better and more honest C/C*:

1) *Don't identify with the picture.*  Don't say '_This is the best picture I have ever taken of my only child. My mother held onto life with a terrible wasting disease until she could die holding this picture. What do you think of it?_' or something close.  Just post the damn thing. Say what you wanted to get across and maybe say something about the conditions. 

2) *Post one or two at a time *- preferably one rather than posting 4, 5, 6, 7 or even 8  greatly different pictures and asking for C/C. 

3) *Signal your willingness to take comments* by picking out a questionable point in the image and asking about it.  That gives viewers a place to start and a hint that you won't start crying about any negative comments.

4) *Post your best stuff*.  

Don't post 10 variations of the same picture; no one, and I mean no photographer, really gives a crap about 10 variations on your baby's smile. 
(I am reminded of a photographer on another site who routinely posts technically competent pictures of her children - every single one in the same pose and from the same pov. There's no need to look at her post; it's always little Ferdinand and Isabella smiling up at the camera at the same angle. One would think they were stuffed except that they're growing. It's good they're growing because she, as a photographer, is not.)​
Don't say _this is SOOC_ - unless you really think it doesn't need any PPing or you think that something truly magical and mysterious happened inside there. 
Don't say, "I was just messing with these'- why would anyone spend their time to look, think and respond if you are 'just messing'?

_my own small personal annoyances_

If someone makes an effort to give you C/C - even if you don't agree, even if that person is a total ravening twit - thank them for their response. You asked for comments, be polite.

If you give c/c, be honest but respect the OP, their work and their subject. 

If you give c/c, don't say 'well, I'm new at this' or 'well, that's just me.'  Your responses, opinions, likes and dislikes are valuable and your input should be judged on its own merits.  

If you PM someone to look at a picture, send the person the link. Please don't assume your contact actually keeps a list of your submissions, sorted by original posting date.


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## jake337 (Jun 3, 2011)

Here's a thread from another forum I emjoyed reading with some suggestions on giving C&C. I found it helpfull. Maybe others here will too.

Comment & Critique 101 - Open Photography Forums


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 3, 2011)

That forum has 52 sub-fora. :shock:


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## jake337 (Jun 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> That forum has 52 sub-fora. :shock:


 
Something for everyone, eh!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, I hope your links help drive traffick there!


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## jake337 (Jun 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Well, I hope your links help drive traffick there!


 
Should I have posted just a copy of the text?


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## JWellman (Jun 3, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> That forum has 52 sub-fora. :shock:


That would drive me insane. If you ask me this forum has too many sub-forums as well.

And P.S. Thanks so much for the help everyone has shown. I've learned so much from being here.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 3, 2011)

Yeah, I thought this place had too many.


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## Overread (Jun 4, 2011)

Bitter - your worst (forum) nightmare: BirdForum - The Net's Largest Birding Community, Dedicated To Wild Birds


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## JWellman (Jun 4, 2011)

Overread said:


> Bitter - your worst (forum) nightmare: BirdForum - The Net's Largest Birding Community, Dedicated To Wild Birds


I joined that forum but never participate because it's crazy big!


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## Overread (Jun 4, 2011)

I mostly just lurk in the photography section there - but the other sections can be a great help for tapping into info fast and without having to register on "another" forum for the info. But yeah it is crazy big!


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