# Selling photos to others is not "the natural progression of photography"



## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

I was away from the forum for a couple of years, and have come back to check in with you good folks again.

Coming in with a fresh perspective, I was surprised as to how much emphasis some people are putting on commercializing photography.

Don't get me wrong, there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to get paid for taking pictures, nothing at all. It can be a fine and rewarding profession. I had a studio for 15 years back in the film days, and I do know a thing or two about selling photos for money to pay bills.... 

I just want to point out to anybody who might be wondering, the goal of photography and developing your photographic skills does NOT need to be centered around the BUSINESS of photography. 

I got out of the business, and after a 5-year break, I started concentrating on shooting what I like to shoot... I have to admit, I am enjoying doing that a LOT more than when I did it professionally...

There's no pressure. You don't have to please anybody but yourself. If you want to do something wonky because it interests you, then you can just do it and not have to worry about getting paid for it.

I gotta be honest, most "professional" photographers I know that are successful don't love photography, they are business people who happen to take pictures. The only way to really succeed in photography monetarily is to spend 95 percent of your time selling yourself and your business.

Yes, I know, there are a ton of "Mom's With Canon Rebels" "Professional" "Photographers" out there who make a few bucks on the side (while at the same time putting their family's entire future at risk because they don't carry liability insurance or indemnification protection... and yeah, if you are a part-timer reading this who doesn't know what indemnification protection means, I STRONGLY recommend you find out because you ARE putting your family's financial future at risk), and I get the appeal of that to some. I put this more in the category of mowing the neighbor's lawn than professional photography (albeit with significant risks).

If you want to do that, by all means, do it! It's an honorable and needed profession. I advise you to do it the right way, join the PPA, get insurance (FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE GET INSURANCE), use releases, get your tax numbers/sales tax stuff set up so that the state doesn't nail you for not collecting sales tax, etc. 

It is not, however, the inevitable outcome of learning photography.

There is another way, a way of freedom to create, freedom to do as you please... without having to even care whether anybody else is interested in what interests you... 

I just wanted to point this out.


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## Mr. Innuendo (Oct 22, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> I just want to point out to anybody who might be wondering, the goal of photography and developing your photographic skills does NOT need to be centered around the BUSINESS of photography.



If your business is photography, though, it really does.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

Mr. Innuendo said:


> sabbath999 said:
> 
> 
> > I just want to point out to anybody who might be wondering, the goal of photography and developing your photographic skills does NOT need to be centered around the BUSINESS of photography.
> ...



Most people in the beginner's forum are not operating a photo business... at least I would HOPE they are not...


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## Mr. Innuendo (Oct 22, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> Mr. Innuendo said:
> 
> 
> > sabbath999 said:
> ...



Ahhhh, yes. Point taken. Apologies, I lost track of the area in which I was posting...


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## Dao (Oct 22, 2015)

Sabbath999, I noticed you come back recently.  I remember you had a lot of zoo photos in the past.     I agree with you that take good photos and photo business is 2 totally different things.  Photographer is a profession.  XYZ studio create a product and sell it to it's customer is a business.   Just like a cook is a profession, a restaurant is a business.

A person who is able to cook very well does not mean he/she can run a restaurant and make money.  On the contrary, so so food could possible make millions (look at those fast food chains) if one can run the business well.


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## SCraig (Oct 22, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> Most people in the beginner's forum are not operating a photo business... at least I would HOPE they are not...


Stick around.  I think you'll be amazed at the number who are.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 22, 2015)

I don't quite get it either, except maybe the internet and now social media some what fuel it; that people see something about it and decide to try it without getting well informed on what will go into it as a business. Friends especially online seem to 'like' just about anything and everything which might be giving unrealistic feedback.

It's not just photography either, have you seen any of those restaurant and bar rescue shows? Some are from circumstances, the original owner having passed away or years of a bad economy, but some I wonder what the person was thinking because they don't seem to have a clue how to run the business.

I'm not sure if people think of photography as a business. But yeah, do you think people need insurance?? lol Of course they do, because if out there working on your own, even if it's unlikely anything will happen (and maybe nothing ever will), if something does happen it'll be their butt in a sling.

I hope if someone's considering it they'll read your thoughts on this and give it some time and thought before jumping into it.


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## zombiesniper (Oct 22, 2015)

Agree sabath999. I love going out to shoot what I want. Couldn't imagine ever wanting to pick up a camera and HAVE to shoot something that wasn't what I was interested in.
Also agree that there are those who just happen to be in a great place in life where they can make money shooting what they enjoy.
There's a place for us all, find you're own path and life will always be more enjoyable.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

SCraig said:


> sabbath999 said:
> 
> 
> > Most people in the beginner's forum are not operating a photo business... at least I would HOPE they are not...
> ...



I've noticed the trend, hence the post. 

I have zero issue with anybody who does want to sell photos for money, I just become concerned that people think that the "natural progression" means the SHOULD end up selling photos for money.

I am a technical diver, I dive in overhead environments (caves, for example)... it's a very specific, VERY technical type of diving that requires a lot of extra training and equipment... yet I always hasten to explain to all of the "OMG!" looks on the new recreational divers faces when they see the truckload of gear and many tanks we end up strapping to our rigs that technical diving is NOT the natural progression of getting your open water permit. Most people don't want to do anything more than jump off a boat and look/take pictures of the pretty reef fishes and corals, and that is 100 percent fine. I like doing that too. 

I think it really does a disservice to the beginning community to focus on commerce... on what "sells" because it stifles creativity. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

vintagesnaps said:


> It's not just photography either, have you seen any of those restaurant and bar rescue shows?



Our TV is hooked up to an over-the-air antenna. I work for a local TV station part-time, I am a sports videographer. 

The ONLY time our TV is turned on is on a night when I have footage airing, and then I only watch the sports segment to make sure that my exposure and white balance looks good on the consumer's screen and see if the anchor has read my script or is ad-libbing, and to see any new 'catch phrases' the anchor is fond of so that I can write them into my next shot-sheet. Things like "Mark Smith takes the hand off and does Mark Smith Type Things" kind or phrases. I then shut it off.

That is the entire extent of our TV watching, ever. 

BTW I highly recommend unplugging from the tube. It's freeing. But that's a different post entirely


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## pixmedic (Oct 22, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > sabbath999 said:
> ...



it doesn't always stifle creativity. 
I would imagine there are plenty of professional photographers that sell pictures solely on the fact that they can create something new and wonderful with every session. Not _*me*_ mind you, but I imagine that they _*do*_ exist.  
sometimes the progression  from amateur to professional is what really pushes people to step up their game and start _*creating*_ instead of just _*capturing.*_


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## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

pixmedic said:


> sometimes the progression  from amateur to professional is what really pushes people to step up their game and start _*creating*_ instead of just _*capturing.*_



While I won't disagree, I just contend that the whole idea of "commercializing photography" is not "THE" natural progression of learning how to take pictures. It is certainly "A" progression, but it is not the ONLY legitimate progression, nor would I argue is it the best progression for most of the photographic community.


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## Derrel (Oct 22, 2015)

Hey, new TPF member here. My name is Jordan, and I live in Savannah,Georgia. So,long story short, I've been gifted a camera by my spouse, and am enjoying reading the manual and learning about the various modes my camera has. So far I have taken some pretty good photos of my kids, and am thinking of turning photography into a business. What lens should I buy next, and do I need a flash? I want to make some money taking senior,wedding,and baby and maternity pics. I have dreamed of becoming a professional photographer off and on, for the last six months or so. Now that I have the Rebel T5i and 18-55 lens, I think it is time to make that a reality. What tips can you fine people here give me?

That farcical post above is a fairly accurate representation of many posts we've seen here on TPF over the last seven years. I really think that a lot of folks do see shooting for money as the natural progression...except that many of them do not want there to be much of a progression, but instead some type of extremely rapid teleportation from the world of beginning shooter to established professional in something like, oh, say six months.


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## Designer (Oct 22, 2015)

Derrel said:


> That farcical post above ...


Oh, really?  I think I see that here about once a week.  

Word for word.

I actually thought you copied and pasted.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 22, 2015)

I bet you 99.87% of the current professional photographers  didn't take the advice they are giving out today.


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## Dao (Oct 22, 2015)

I think sometimes back, someone post a chart of what avg photographer made ..  then a lot of ppl said  "He11 no!  I am not giving up my current job" .


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## Derrel (Oct 22, 2015)

I think social media, mostly Facebook, but also a few of the biggest web sites, have given hundreds of thousands of hobby shooters false hope,and a false representation of the marketplace. There are a ton of people offering seminars and workshops...make that SELLING seminars and workshops, and pushing "the dream". These so-called photographic educators are making most of their money offering education and training, to the point that they really are more active as educators than as full-time, regular ol' photographers.

In addition, there are all the* watermark pro's *on social media...you see their photos...their name + "Photography" (in script?) on images that look sorta' like pro shots, but not quite. After having seen a few thousand such images on social media and the web, I think people think, "Hey, I can take photos at least that good," and boom! They think they want to go pro. And here we are now in 2015...I have seen some absolutely dreadful wedding and portrait sessions on social media over the last six years, and so, well...if pics like those can be sold, then why not sell similar pics. Right?

I think this is how this idea of the insta-pro, and the progression has taken such a widespread hold: social media, and also the web-based "educators" and the "how-to workshop" photographers, pushing these damned workshops, many priced at up to $1,999. I think this industry, the training and education through workshop concept, has really been successful at brainwashing a lot of people, newcomers in particular, and creating the idea that the natural progression is,in actuality, being able to go out there and create sellable images. IN order to fill those workshops, the idea must exist that hey, You too can create professionally sellable images!"


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## terri (Oct 22, 2015)

Spot on, Derrel.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 22, 2015)

terri said:


> Spot on, Derrel.


 
Agreed.


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## jake337 (Oct 22, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Hey, new TPF member here. My name is Jordan, and I live in Savannah,Georgia. So,long story short, I've been gifted a camera by my spouse, and am enjoying reading the manual and learning about the various modes my camera has. So far I have taken some pretty good photos of my kids, and am thinking of turning photography into a business. What lens should I buy next, and do I need a flash? I want to make some money taking senior,wedding,and baby and maternity pics. I have dreamed of becoming a professional photographer off and on, for the last six months or so. Now that I have the Rebel T5i and 18-55 lens, I think it is time to make that a reality. What tips can you fine people here give me?
> 
> That farcical post above is a fairly accurate representation of many posts we've seen here on TPF over the last seven years. I really think that a lot of folks do see shooting for money as the natural progression...except that many of them do not want there to be much of a progression, but instead some type of extremely rapid teleportation from the world of beginning shooter to established professional in something like, oh, say six months.



Does anyone know where I can find some free or cheap presets?   I really want my images to"pop"!


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## The_Traveler (Oct 22, 2015)

I have an almost visceral aversion to selling pictures. In my local club there are a couple of guys, friends, who are really good technical photographers and have ended up selling a few and that has distorted their entire attitude towards what they shoot. 
That's not for me.  
I like to shoot what I like to shoot and I don't want to think there is a dollar bill between me and the camera.


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Oh come on just last week I had a guy buy me lunch as thanks for shot I took of him so 6 months to be full time no problem.


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## jaomul (Oct 25, 2015)

There is the fact also that there has kind of been a recession going on the last few years. Many people will try their hand at something on the side to make ends meet. Here on TPF we see the guys/girls who think taking a nice photo may be the way to get some extra money because, as said earlier, there are some terrible photos on social media of weddings, portraits, events etc. It's understandable that someone could look at these and say "I could do better", not really taking into account that the photo got 3000 likes because the someone tagged is popular.

I have seen guys tiling, plumbing and even doing electrics in the last few years. I went to school with some of these people. They are not tilers, plumbers or electricians, more so handymen in a time now where regulations make handymen obsolete.

At least, I suppose, a "PRO" photographer generally wont create an unsafe situation due lack of training


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

jaomul said:


> At least, I suppose, a "PRO" photographer generally wont create an unsafe situation due lack of training



Does that mean I should stop working on my neighbors car?  I think you are right in what you are saying but you have to understand the draw for us newbees too.  We paid 800 bucks for a professional photo session at our family reunion last summer.  She and her side kick had all the fancy gear but were only there about an hour, took no time to get to know who she was shooting and made us wait 3 weeks for proofs.  They were so bad I paid the extra 150 bucks for the disc so I could pull them into light room and salvage them enough to print for grandma.  And started camera shopping...

Now before you go off on me I have no illusions of ever making a dime shooting photos but I doubt I'll ever pay a pro again either.





Portrait of a cowbell just to lighten the mood because who doesn't like more cowbell?


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## tirediron (Oct 25, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> jaomul said:
> 
> 
> > At least, I suppose, a "PRO" photographer generally wont create an unsafe situation due lack of training
> ...



This is something else we hear a LOT around here, and I'm curious - $800 is not a small amount for most people; so, before you handed that over, did you do any research?  Did you visit her website or view her portfolio?  How did the images there compare to what you received?


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Yep my daughter did the due diligence with her and talked to several to narrow it down.  To be fair we have a close family friend who is also her best friend that is an amazing photographer so the bar was set pretty high. So this is what we expected Cool beans! - Family photo session  and I kid you not this is what we got.  Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet  (LOL yes my son and I were both wearing the same shirt 5 years later...)

For what it's worth 800 was the total for the windshield time, session, a couple dozen prints and the disc.  Her website looks good and she can do good work she just didn't with us.  I suspect she was desperate because of the 88 photos on the disc 30 of them were duplicates in black and white or some variation on a crop and at least 60 of them should have never been shown to any customer.

My point is it's easy to see how a novice like me can look at this and have no doubt I could have done better...


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## The_Traveler (Oct 25, 2015)

I have to say that I wouldn't have hired this person.
Her stuff look really average, WB off, very average posing, framing and editing.


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Traveler which session are you referring to?  I should point out that was Amandas 2nd family shoot ever and you should see her work today.   Next time I'm buying her a plane ticket!


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## Derrel (Oct 25, 2015)

Sorry to have to say it charchri4, but you got MWAC'd. I went to her blog and IMMEDIATELY recognized a selt-taught, inept shooter's work. I could tell, within two seconds, that she has the noob-like habit of making group photos wide-open. Pulling EXIF info confirmed what I suspected...she's a 50mm shooter...wide-open at f/1.4, from close-range on SIX-person family photos...over and over and over again. Legs OOF, knees OOF, heads OOF, entire people OOF...utterly unprofessional shooting on the first two sets. I loved her comment that her sister wanted individual photos of each of the four kids as part of the family session, something ,"which we had never done," she wrote. F***** laughable, that!

This person might be charging, but her work is awful. She has loads of group photos with four inches in-focus, and then ENTIRE family poses where their bodies,legs,feet, and entire rows--are ALL BADLY out of focus. It is as if this woman has no idea of f/5.6.

The happy families and joy do NOT make up for incredible technique and stylistic deficiencies. This is unprofessional work. If she were a race car driver, she would only use second gear.

WIDE-OPEN, baby!


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Wow really?  Sounds like you looked at some of her more current work.  I changed the post to have my family up there but still surprised to hear the response.  I guess I don't see the technical aspects so much just the personality of the subject and how it impacts me.

But you just drove home the point this thread is trying to say is impossible.  For all her ineptness Amanda makes a very good living and works as much as she wants to.  She successfully moved her business from Minneapolis to Kansas City and barely missed a beat for sessions.   The reason you don't see senior photos on her site is because she makes enough shooting what she enjoys.

So is the definition of professional what the market wants or what the critics declare as worthy?

PS to the rest of you I believe this is the session Darrel is talking about. The Bailey Family 2015 | Lifestyle Family Photographer


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## Derrel (Oct 25, 2015)

charchri4 said:
			
		

> I guess I don't see the technical aspects so much just *the personality of the subject and how it impacts me.*



EXACTLY!!!! Retail customers judge photos based on their own, personal relationships with the people in the photos. Technical quality, compositions with loads of empty, dead space, bad crops,oddball positioning of people, crotches placed at the edges of the frame, unflattering poses, all that stuff...most people overlook those types of flaws* if their loved ones look "good*". But that does not mean that a better, more-skilled person's images will not also receive high marks. It **is** possible to do quality work AND make people look friendly.

People who shoot family groups with a 50mm lens, wide-open, shot after shot, with entire rows of people out of focus, with ALL of their clothing out of focus, and only their teeth in-focus are not skilled. When there are shots that are shown TINY, because "the children are actually out of focus"...that person's skills and judgement are not high. ANd I see those things in her blog, over and over. Failure to shoot *individual shots* of four kids during yearly family sessions? OMG!!!

Take the earlier session: here is what I as an unrelated, non-family member "see" from her work.
100725_021-web.jpg  The tree sprouting from sister's shoulder is very distracting; this is called "checking the background for unwanted elements". His eye direction is also extremely unfortunate...looks like a glance toward her chest. Just a horrible shot.

100725_073-web.jpg At the end...I guess brother deserves a tree sprouting out of his head as well.

100725_057-web.jpg  TREE growing right out of your head: I learned how to avoid that in my ninth grade photography class. Thanks Mr. Wilson!

There are professional photographers with training in the visual arts, and their work is at another level entirely, from that of the self-taught, wide-open, 50mm lens type shooter. Your most-recent $950 experience is a great example of a barely adequate "pro" doing BAD work...work that disappointed you, because...it was BADLY done. The proof is in her results:Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

McDonald's is one of the most successful restaurants in America. it has many outlets, and rakes in a LOT of money. Will you be taking the wife there for your 30th wedding anniversary dinner? kraft's individually-wrapped single slices of processed American cheese--one of the USA's MOST-popular cheese products, by unit sales. But--is it really good cheese?


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Oh my bad you were looking at the older stuff.  You are spot on and I never noticed that before.  So maybe it's a dumbed down market issue then.  A few of those shots have been hanging on my walls for 5 years and I never noticed and trees coming out of heads even though that is something I've looked for in the view finder long before that session.   

So it appears the bottom line is the market will buy crap without even knowing it and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle...


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

PS Thank you Darrel for making this a fascinating discussion!  I 'm going to hold the order for business cards and take the cowbell portrait out of my portfolio now  .  LOL seriously this is good stuff for newbees and I have learned a lot from it.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 25, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> So is the definition of professional what the market wants or what the critics declare as worthy?



I am not trying to rub salt into a wound but look at the first group image posted of your family.
It is way,way, way yellow and the group is at the lower left of the frame with lots of empty space on the right and at the top
That is actually somehat fixable after the fact  but it hasn't been done.

Look at her previous thread of the Bailey family.
The family is very close and their poses are csual and nice but look at the framing - empty space on tops and sides with heads right at teh margin. Heavy ugly vignettes.

I'm not a pro - in that I don't shoot for money - but I would never post work like this.

.


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## Derrel (Oct 25, 2015)

charchri4 said:
			
		

> Oh my bad you were looking at the older stuff.  You are spot on and I never noticed that before.  So maybe it's a dumbed down market issue then.  A few of those shots have been hanging on my walls for 5 years and I never noticed and trees coming out of heads even though that is something I've looked for in the view finder long before that session.
> 
> So it appears the bottom line is *the market will buy crap without even knowing it* and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle...



No, I looked at her blog, and her most-recent work, as well as earlier work. I looked at _all three of the links that you provided_. her most recent work is where I saw the 50mm f/1.4 shots that turned out so poorly.

I looked at shots where people in talls were way off to the left side of the frame, with empty spaces that contributed nothing. I saw f/1.4 shots that had huge amounts of the peoples' bodies wayyyyy out of focus. Over and over. I saw shots with inadequate DOF, displayed small, to hide the inadequate sharpness. First rule of blown focus: make it SMALL!

But yeah, you are right: *the market will buy crap without even knowing it* and thus the reason folks think all they need do is pick up a camera and hang out a shingle. Many people have no training in the visual arts or in photography, and they cannot easily differentiate between a poor photographer and a good one.

You'll notice that she's not shooting high-budget advertising campaigns; her technical grasp of photography is limited. She was utterly STYMIED when confronted with your family reunion's groups shots, which were done in a very unprofessional way, with unprofessional results--despite the $950 you payed to get some bad images, dupes, B&W conversions, and bad processing and editing and poor lighting/exposures.

If I worked as a burger cook at a McDonald's for two years, does that mean I am a professional chef?  If I successfully did my own brakes, am I a professional mechanic? If I manage to catch fish most of the times I go fishing, am I a professional fishing guide? If I treated an abcess on my cat, am I therefore qualified to be a veterinarian? The answer to all four is no,no,no,and no. But in photography, I can be a "professional" if only people pay me. At least by one definition of "professional photographer".

There are almost no real barriers to entry in social media-based professional photography; a Canon Rebel, maybe a flash, a copy of Lightroom, that's a great start. BOOM! *Insta-pro!
*
Definitely, order the business cards Jim!


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## Designer (Oct 25, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> So is the definition of professional what the market wants or what the critics declare as worthy?


No offense meant to your daughter, who I'm sure thought she picked a skilled professional, but the truth is; the "market" doesn't know s*it!  Most purchasers of art have no experience in judging art, and that includes photography services of course. 

As for the critics; there is no mechanism for respected critics to criticize each and every photographer who decides to pick up a camera.  Just a select few are criticized in any depth, and that's because they're already doing decent work.

I'm really sorry about your experience, but consider it an important lesson learned. 

BTW: the photographer that my family has hired many times over the years could be going out of business, I see that his building is for sale.

So the good ones go out of business and the crappy ones get hired for megabucks.


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## charchri4 (Oct 25, 2015)

Well you got me thinking so I had to find out who did the photos for us this year and here is the link to her site.  Studio B - Home

Interesting most of her family stuff looks just like Amandas stuff but with dumb furniture.  I have no idea with either of them charge for sitting fees and what not just what the total bill was this year from the studio b gal.  I know it was not near as expensive from Amanda in 2010.


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## sabbath999 (Oct 27, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> But you just drove home the point this thread is trying to say is impossible.  For all her ineptness Amanda makes a very good living and works as much as she wants to.  She successfully moved her business from Minneapolis to Kansas City and barely missed a beat for sessions.   The reason you don't see senior photos on her site is because she makes enough shooting what she enjoys.



That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography. 

I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 27, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.
> 
> *I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice*.



What a right on-point, and charitable, point to make.
This is, AFAIC, absolutely similar to how people defend their choice of equipment.
When people have a lot invested, through a complex decision process and often a lor of money, they may not be able to tolerate the possibility of being wrong - or being seen as being wrong.


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## tirediron (Oct 27, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> That's not at all the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that* "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography*.
> 
> I think people become far too wrapped up in their own strings to notice.


This.  Exactly.  There's nothing wrong with hanging out your shingle, but for gawd's sake, have at least half a clue before you do!


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## The_Traveler (Oct 27, 2015)

I don't sell my pictures or try to sell my pictures or even feel like selling my pictures  and yet, compared to a good many of the professionals I've seen, I am possibly skilled enough to be a standard portrait or event photographer.

My belief is that the interest in selling, in making money exerts too much of a distorting influence on how I personally take pictures. 
It is difficult enough for me to make pictures that I like and I don't need to add another point of pressure.

I would probably be less frustrated about what I do if I really loved shooting weddings or real estate pictures or senior pictures some other marketable stuff but I don't.
When I read, again and again, that, to be a success as a photographer, a person must be good businessman more than a good photographer, I am so happy I am content to be unsuccessful as a photographer.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 27, 2015)

John, you think they should have a clue?? your standards are entirely too high! lol


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## tirediron (Oct 27, 2015)

vintagesnaps said:


> John, you think they should have a clue?? your standards are entirely too high! lol


 That's why I only stipulated "half".   I'm realistic.


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## Derrel (Oct 27, 2015)

sabbath999 said:
			
		

> The point of this thread is that "selling" is "a" "possible" progression in photography, not "THE ONLY" progression in photography.



There are thousands upon thousands of people on Facebook selling workshops and action sets and workflow "kits" who beg to differ! Creativelive.com has its many videos for sale each and every week, emphasizing how one can become a pro photog. Social media and some large web sites are on-line, promoting the idea of _*going pro*_.

In the absence of tens of thousands of web sites promoting photography for the joy of it, for the fun of it, I think the messages coming from the sites selling the dream of becoming a professional photographer will continue to win the battle.


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## Vtec44 (Oct 27, 2015)

The key is to do what you love, then sell it to the people that love what do.    Photography is time consuming and expensive.  Not all of us will have the time or can afford to do it for fun, and no you don't have to give up your first born if you're paid to do photography.  

I can't speak for anyone else, but getting paid for your work is an amazing feeling.  For me, it's a validation of what I do as a photographer.  I love that by simply doing and sharing what I love, I can support myself and my family.  Some people get into it for the money, and some do it for the love of doing it that just happen to get paid to do it.  Many people love your work.  Do they love it enough to pay a lot for it?


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## charchri4 (Oct 27, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> My belief is that the interest in selling, in making money exerts too much of a distorting influence on how I personally take pictures.
> It is difficult enough for me to make pictures that I like and I don't need to add another point of pressure.



This is a really interesting and enlightening point I had not considered.  Thank you for posting your thoughts here.


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## Buckster (Oct 27, 2015)

I started reading and watching and keeping up with this thread from when it was first posted, trying to wrap my head around it, but four pages later, I still don't get the point.

Sure, monetary gain ISN'T the ONLY reason to pursue photography, but who said it IS?  Nobody that I know of.  Lots of people, new at it AND old hands, don't pursue monetary gain as THE REASON to shoot.  But for those who want to, so what?

I keep reading the new posts as they pop up and, while some have some interesting points I suppose, I find myself still asking questions like, "why should I care what anyone else wants to do with their time, their efforts, their money, their lives?  If it makes them feel happy or fulfilled or engaged in life to pursue something, ANYTHING, that doesn't harm me, why should I pound a virtual nail or three into them for it?  Who are we to take a giant poop on that happiness?"

If they "suck", so what?
If they make money with their "suck", so what?
If others are willing to pay them for their "suck", so what?
If they don't take the proper precautions and get sued over their "suck", so what?

And I don't care if we're talking about photography, basket weaving, or anything else.  So what?

Why is it never enough for some to just do what fulfills their lives and makes it enjoyable to them, and allow others to do the same?  Why do they feel this need to denigrate others for doing or not doing what THEY think those others should or should not be doing?

I don't get that.


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## charchri4 (Oct 27, 2015)

Buckster my take away is people who actually do good work don't want the market dumbed down by people trying to sell crap and the market has no idea what is crap.


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## Derrel (Oct 27, 2015)

Take your cupcake and muffin baking to the next level--open a business selling muffins and cupcakes! Friends, family, work associates, friends of friends--ALL of these people are dying to have YOUR cupcakes and muffins filling their tummies! Professional cupcake and muffin cookery is the subject of my Oct 31 *Halloween Baking and Cash Raking* seminar at the Biltmore Fantasy Lodge, only $899, with a FREE gift of a 2 x 12 muffin tin set for all attendees!

Take your interest in shade tree mechanic work to the next level--buy thousands of dollars of tools and repair manuals and start a business out of your home, repairing motorcycles! Here, take my seminar in how to get started, only $499!

Turn YOUR ability to send e-mails into a full-time,money-making business as a personal secretary to people who are lousy typists! Utilize your incredible, rare, special abilities with computers and e-mail software and start making money NOW! Making real, folding money-sending e-mails for people who have no e-mail abilities!

Turn your love of watching movies on Netflix into a career as a full-time movie reviewer for YOUR local newspaper! Nevermind the watercooler chat about movies, that's for saps. Take my seminar at the airport Holiday Inn this weekend, and start earning CASH for YOUR movie review insights! Attend my seminar, only $349 pre-registered, $459 at the door!

You shop for groceries. Everybody does. But if you're motivated, you can turn your grocery shopping trips into money-making, amazing outings where you shop for neighbors, friends, family, and people in your town or city! Start making money this week, by taking my *Shop For Others and Make Serious Money Seminar *at the downtown Shilo Inn. Only $199 + tax.


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## clel miller (Oct 27, 2015)

^^^^^that was funny 
Yeah, it is no different than being a
Carpenter
Painter
Truck-driver
Wood-worker
etc etc
You may be quite good at it, but doing it for a living is a Whole Different thing. I was in The Painters Union for 25 years, but I Never Wanted to be  a Painting Contractor.
I worked in The Financial District of San Francisco, and was in the same 5 buildings for 10 years. People would get in the elevator with you on 1, and want you to tell them how to paint a door before they got off on 12. wtf.....


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## Buckster (Oct 27, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> Buckster my take away is people who actually do good work don't want the market dumbed down by people trying to sell crap and the market has no idea what is crap.


They can't stop the market from being "dumbed down" and they can't stop people from taking money for "crap" if people are willing to pay for it.  So, all they're doing if that's their reason, is whining.


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## Buckster (Oct 27, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Take your cupcake and muffin baking to the next level--open a business selling muffins and cupcakes! Friends, family, work associates, friends of friends--ALL of these people are dying to have YOUR cupcakes and muffins filling their tummies! Professional cupcake and muffin cookery is the subject of my Oct 31 *Halloween Baking and Cash Raking* seminar at the Biltmore Fantasy Lodge, only $899, with a FREE gift of a 2 x 12 muffin tin set for all attendees!
> 
> Take your interest in shade tree mechanic work to the next level--buy thousands of dollars of tools and repair manuals and start a business out of your home, repairing motorcycles! Here, take my seminar in how to get started, only $499!
> 
> ...


If they can pull if off, so what?


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## beckylynne (Oct 27, 2015)

They say the Photography Business is 10% photography and 90% business.


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## Buckster (Oct 27, 2015)

clel miller said:


> ^^^^^that was funny
> Yeah, it is no different than being a
> Carpenter
> Painter
> ...


Again - so what?  If they want to try, so what?  If they succeed, so what?  If they fail, so what?


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## sabbath999 (Oct 27, 2015)

Derrel said:


> sabbath999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm shocked. There are thousands upon thousands of people on Facebook who are wrong!! OMG!!!

(but yeah, they do sell it pretty hard... they need a swift kick in the nads...)


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## sabbath999 (Oct 27, 2015)

Buckster said:


> Sure, monetary gain ISN'T the ONLY reason to pursue photography, but who said it IS?



A LOT of people say it is, and they are spending a LOT of money trying to invade the minds of new photographers and steer them down the path of "photography is for selling ." Nothing wrong with selling photos, it's just not the ONLY path, that's all I am saying.

I started this thread after a day of being inundated with all the hype of "turn your hobby into a goldmine" ads on my internet browser.


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## clel miller (Oct 27, 2015)

[/QUOTE]
Again - so what?  If they want to try, so what?  If they succeed, so what?  If they fail, so what?[/QUOTE]

Whoosh.......


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## charchri4 (Oct 27, 2015)

Derrel said:


> Take your cupcake and muffin baking to the next level--open a business selling muffins and cupcakes! Friends, family, work associates, friends of friends--ALL of these people are dying to have YOUR cupcakes and muffins filling their tummies! Professional cupcake and muffin cookery is the subject of my Oct 31 *Halloween Baking and Cash Raking* seminar at the Biltmore Fantasy Lodge, only $899, with a FREE gift of a 2 x 12 muffin tin set for all attendees!
> 
> Take your interest in shade tree mechanic work to the next level--buy thousands of dollars of tools and repair manuals and start a business out of your home, repairing motorcycles! Here, take my seminar in how to get started, only $499!
> 
> ...



While I recognize this is satire I also recognize it is really not fair.  Plenty of people have gone from amateur to pro in all sorts of endeavors with nothing more than a little vision and a lot of determination.   I've done it 3 times myself though to be fair I did seek training to build on my skill set before making the jump from hobby to full time.  But plenty of people don't and there would be no such word as entrepreneur if millions had not done exactly what your examples represent.

For a lot of us your example of the shade tree mechanic is no different than photography.  Nobody goes to a seminar to go from shade tree mechanic to pro technician.  They either go to school for it or are interested enough to hang out on forums like this and learn their craft by experience.  Sooner than later a car problem will come up in conversation with someone and the rest will be history.

I'm not saying any fool with a credit card can start a successful photography studio or take anything away from the professionals reading this.  But it isn't exactly rocket science either...


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## Derrel (Oct 27, 2015)

sabbath999 said:
			
		

> A LOT of people say it is, and they are spending a LOT of money trying to invade the minds of new photographers and steer them down the path of "photography is for selling ." Nothing wrong with selling photos, it's just not the ONLY path, that's all I am saying.
> 
> I started this thread after a day of being inundated with all the hype of "turn your hobby into a goldmine" ads on my internet browser.



Facebook in particular is filled with companies and individuals pumping up the idea of turning picture-taking into a "career", by the mere enrollment in a workshop, or by becoming a member of some learn-how-to group or learn-how-to course of instruction. I supposed we ought to thank the social media and web gods for all the *watermark pro's* we now have, people to whom we can turn when we want a 25 minute mini-session with "all images on CD" for $30.

I find it amusing how some people get all bent out of shape when viewpoints don't match their own, and the righteous indignation flows like mountain spring water. Hey....maybe we could bottle that water--and become the Righteous Indignation Spring Water company!

There are people who want to sell photos. Yippie-skippy! There are people who sell an occasional print, or two! Hooray! Let them. It's a free country.

HERE is a very interesting Facebook page, called Missy MWAC, "Your guide through the murky waters of Professional Photography."Missy Mwac

She also has another page  Missy Mwac

I will not "spill the beans" on what, exactly, these are about. The answers might surprise some people. Don't be fooled by the names!


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## Buckster (Oct 27, 2015)

sabbath999 said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, monetary gain ISN'T the ONLY reason to pursue photography, but who said it IS?
> ...


Ahhh, I see.  Well, I must admit, I missed those, which is weird since "a LOT of people say it" (that monetary gain is the ONLY reason to pursue photography).

I mean, I've seen lots of tutorial sites and books and videos advertised over the years, and started out myself in the late 60's / early 70's getting such books from the local library to start my journey to learn about my budding interest in photography.  Some of the first that I got my eyeballs into were Ansel's, "The Camera", "The Negative" and, "The Print".  I didn't know that they were only for people who intended to use them to figure out how to make money with photography, but I must not have been paying attention.

I made the bold assumption all these years that they were made for people who want to improve their photography or editing in some way, but I wrongly assumed that the target audience was ANYONE who wanted to improve for ANY reason, from just getting better at their hobby (with no intention of making money from it) up to getting to the point where they could make their hobby into something more (yes, selling their services), as so MANY have done with so MANY hobbies that people enjoy.

But now that you've informed us that "a LOT of people say" that the *ONLY* reason to pursue photography is for monetary gain, I'm sure you can throw a couple links out here to back that claim up, and I'm SURELY looking forward to it.  It's always good to learn new things and see things in a fresh light.

Go for it.  Educate me.


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## charchri4 (Oct 28, 2015)

Having owned my camera a whopping 2 weeks now I'm about as new to the craft as it gets around here.  So I have a question.  Who makes the rules?

I am learning the rule of 1/3rds, the exposure triangle and the rules on background blur.  In my quest for learning I find one guy who says fill the frame and another who says leave space.  One guy who says too much back ground blur is distracting and another who says too little is distracting.  And apparently it's fine to have to have a railing coming out of a persons butt but a cardinal sin to have a column coming out of their shoulder!

So who made the rules and do they ever change?  Is the person that decides how much background blur is appropriate the same one who decides what the best crop is or are things delegated to specialists?


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## The_Traveler (Oct 28, 2015)

Yes, but that really isn't the point.
The point being made here is that selling isn't the only end.



charchri4 said:


> Plenty of people have gone from armature to pro in all sorts of endeavors with nothing more than a little vision and a lot of determination.



But on your issue, getting into any business, there are certain questions you must ask - or expect to fail

is there a market?
Is the market stagnant or growing and is it underserved in a way that would benefit new businesses?
is there current competition and how can I beat them? and
what is the barrier to entry for other competitors?
There is a low to medium-end market but it  is either stagnant or shrinking because the number of people working or trying to work in the field is growing and potential customers are accepting cell phone pictures as OK enough to skip pro work.
The existing competitors are chasing every customer and using lowered prices as bait.
The availability of cheap but smart cameras and lenses and the virtual total lack of controls in the trade means that there is no barrier to entry.

Someone who buys/gets a camera now, hoping to be in business, is looking to develop both skills and a customer base in the face of enormous competition from equal or more skilled people.
That kind of thing may be OK for someone who doesn't look at this as a prime means of support but more of a part-time job that buys some equipment.
If that's the way you want to spend your off hours, struggling for bucks in the face of increasing cheaper competition, go for it.

But recognize the situation.


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## Scatterbrained (Oct 28, 2015)

charchri4 said:


> Having owned my camera a whopping 2 weeks now I'm about as new to the craft as it gets around here.  So I have a question.  Who makes the rules?
> 
> I am learning the rule of 1/3rds, the exposure triangle and the rules on background blur.  In my quest for learning I find one guy who says fill the frame and another who says leave space.  One guy who says too much back ground blur is distracting and another who says too little is distracting.  And apparently it's fine to have to have a railing coming out of a persons butt but a cardinal sin to have a column coming out of their shoulder!
> 
> So who made the rules and do they ever change?  Is the person that decides how much background blur is appropriate the same one who decides what the best crop is or are things delegated to specialists?


The "rules" are general guide lines of good taste developed over centuries of art history.  That said, there are plenty of "Internet Experts" out there who really shouldn't be listened to.   Too much blur a bad thing?  Sometimes.  Context can be good, and really help to elevate a portrait, but sometimes the location is less than photographically ideal and a good dose of blur can be the answer.  Background blur can be horribly distracting however if you use a lens that renders jarring, eye aching bokeh; something like the Canon nifty 50 .    A railing "coming out of someones butt" sounds painful.  However, you generally expect people to lean or sit on things with their butts, so it's ok.  Besides, unless you're photographing Nicki Minaj or Kim Kardashian the butt isn't the primary focal point of the image, the face is.  You generally want to avoid distractions around the face, like things "growing out of their heads".


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## The_Traveler (Oct 28, 2015)

Scatterbrained said:


> hat said, there are plenty of "Internet Experts" out there who really shouldn't be listened to.



^ that

re: experts
If what they say applies directly to your picture and makes sense and you think it makes your picture look better, then listen.

If its a load of look-at-me on top of a tiny comment, nahh forget it.


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## Derrel (Oct 28, 2015)

The so-called rules of photography have been mostly borrowed from the field of the visual arts, and the study of design and composition. Plus, there's a tradition of fine art painting, drawing, and sculpting that goes back many centuries. Classical body posing, and poses for the human body, were carved into marble by the ancients, long ago.

The Chinese gave us the idea of aerial perspective (simplified meaning "haze" as an indicator of distance) centuries before European artists ceased drawing their human figures with black outlines around them. In the Renaissance, artists learned the secrets of painting using _camera obscura_ and lens systems; this is little known knowledge, but David Hockney's BBC documentary *Secret Knowledge* is proof enough for many scholars, who can now understand that the photorealistic paintings of many great masters were, in actuality, drawn off of PROJECTED light rays!






The elements and principles of design are what guide photographic composition, not some facile rule of thirds thing that was first concocted for a popular magazine in 1970. Anybody who has studied photography as fine art at the university level will have been exposed to *the elements and principles of design*; the fine arts in the USA are ridiculed by many, people who say, "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like!" and, "Painting? This is a painting? My KID could have done this!" as they stand in front of museum pieces that their lack of exposure to fine art and their lack of education on the arts prevents them from understanding within any significant context.

The "rules" of composition and design are very old. They have been studied, and there has been much written about them, but most people have not availed themselves of the knowledge about the visual arts, just as most people know almost nothing about say, internal medicine, house construction, or jet aircraft mechanics. I personally know only the most bare-bones things about medicine,construction, or jet engines--yet my utter ignorance of those fields does not mean that there is not a huge, extensive body of knowledge that each of those fields is built upon, and which the highest level practitioners have been taught the elements and principles of.


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## Scatterbrained (Oct 28, 2015)

Derrel, have you seen the documentary "Tim's Vermeer" yet?  If you haven't seen it you should try to catch it sometime.  Very cool.  My wife has been bugging me to make her one of the devices from the movie ever since we watched it.   BTW, it's a popular misconception that medieval painters only know how to paint in flat, 2D outline style.  It's simply what was popular at the time.  There is other surviving European art from the time period that shows otherwise.


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## charchri4 (Oct 28, 2015)

Good stuff Darrel thanks.  You bring up many good points and perhaps without trying to drew a great distinction.  There is a big difference between visual arts and jet engines and that is one is art and the other science. 

As I look at that from a frame of reference I know, I can say matt black paint only looks good on 55 to 57 Chevys.  That is the art side of the car and any fool who ever painted a Camaro matt black soon found out the truth to that.  On the science side you have to have fuel, spark, air and the proper timing and compression for said Chevy to run.  There is a little wiggle room in it but very little while the paint color can be a million options and still come out great.

So who made the matt black paint rule?  That would be the movie 2 lane black top and a several million hot rodders that have built cars since.   Is it a rule I and the vast majority of hotrodders believe in whole heartily?  Yes.  Is it a quantifiable rule that should be called a rule?   LOL ask this guy.


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## Derrel (Oct 28, 2015)

I did a quick internet search a while ago. I typed in "_going pro in photography_". Google returned about 50,000,000 items. Fifty million hits.

going pro in photography - Google Search

Boatloads of classes, courses, on-line courses, home study course, web sites, tutorials, blogs, class series for sale, and so on.

Apparently, there are a few random,ill-informed people who will dispute the idea that there is a lot of push and hype toward encouraging people to sell photos. Today, it is no longer just the New York Institute of Photography selling courses to churn out new watermark professional photographers--there are literally millions of other entities encouraging people to "go pro".


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## jcdeboever (Oct 28, 2015)

Derrel said:


> The so-called rules of photography have been mostly borrowed from the field of the visual arts, and the study of design and composition. Plus, there's a tradition of fine art painting, drawing, and sculpting that goes back many centuries. Classical body posing, and poses for the human body, were carved into marble by the ancients, long ago.
> 
> The Chinese gave us the idea of aerial perspective (simplified meaning "haze" as an indicator of distance) centuries before European artists ceased drawing their human figures with black outlines around them. In the Renaissance, artists learned the secrets of painting using _camera obscura_ and lens systems; this is little known knowledge, but David Hockney's BBC documentary *Secret Knowledge* is proof enough for many scholars, who can now understand that the photorealistic paintings of many great masters were, in actuality, drawn off of PROJECTED light rays!
> 
> ...


I once had a sit-down conversation with a well paid copy artist. What was interesting is the answer he gave me when I asked the question, who is the hardest artist to copy? His answer floored me, he said, Mark Rothko. He went on to tell me that he had visited his Chapel in Houston and was absolutely amazed by what he witnessed. He tried for one year to duplicate one of his colored paintings and gave up, he could not figure out how Rothko got the depth, luminosity, and clarity he witnessed in person at the chapel. He felt like he could literally walk inside of the painting. He was in that chapel for a good part of the day and never realized he had been in there that long. I had the same experience when I visited the chapel a few years back. No drugs were involved.
Call the easiest artist to copy or the great masters according to him
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Buckster (Oct 28, 2015)

Derrel said:


> I did a quick internet search a while ago. I typed in "_going pro in photography_". Google returned about 50,000,000 items. Fifty million hits.
> 
> going pro in photography - Google Search
> 
> ...


Interesting.  Of course, we all already know that there are lots of resources out there for learning virtually anything at all, so that's not much of a revelation.

Now point to the ones that say that the ONLY reason to pursue photography is for monetary gain, which is what was claimed, and what I challenged.

By the way, I typed into Google, "Apple Sucks" and got 13,400,000 hits.  Over thirteen million hits.  Then I typed in, "bear cubs know how to start a fire" and got 44,500,000 items.  Over forty-four million hits.  Then, just for fun, I typed in, "Derrel doesn't know what he's talking about" and got almost four million hits.

Funny how definitive that method of ascertaining truth works, ain't it?  

ETA: Somehow, I came up about 50 million hits short, and only got 2,010:


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## jcdeboever (Oct 28, 2015)

Y'all need to learn how to Google search that's for sure[emoji4] 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Jim Walczak (Oct 29, 2015)

I think I have to agree with most of the sentiments here.  The fact of the matter is that I've seen a lot of work from so-called professionals that just...wow...sucks!  There's no real polite way to say that...I've seen a lot of pro work that's just REALLY awful.  Whether it's because they're more interested in business or have simply lost their passion for the "art", I can't really say, however because they just don't have that passion...because it's essentially little more than "a job", their work suffers for it every time.  While this is purely a personal opinion, I think this especially applies to many "portrait studios", where so much of the images produced are generic and unremarkable at best...most of it's "assembly line" more than anything with very little creativity involved.  Unfortunately A LOT of so-called pros can get away with it simply because the majority of their clients really just don't know what_ good_ photography really is.

Perhaps what's even sadder is that this doesn't apply to just photography/photographers either.  Consider how many people may become doctors or lawyers, NOT because they have a passion for such professions, but simply because they think they can make a lot of bread!  It's rather scary if you stop to think about it.

For myself at least, while I do run my own humble little freelance business, to me it's all about the passion first.  If I don't enjoy what I'm doing, wow...I just don't do it.  For example, I could make A LOT of money shooting weddings, but I've done it a couple of times and I -HATE- IT.  I will NOT shoot weddings....ever!  I'm the same way as a musician...I could probably make a small fortune producing "beats" and such for local (c)rappers or hip/floppers, however I -really- hate that stuff.  For me, as a working musician, I play the music -I- enjoy playing and when I make some coin at it, so much the better.  And perhaps that's the distinction...I'm an artist and for myself, whether it's photography, music, vector illustrations or 3D animation, I -care- about the work I create and I do take a great deal of pride in my work (and I'd like to think that's part of what keeps my customers coming back to me).  I do make money at it, however the money is NOT the priority for me...if it were, I'd sure as hell be doing something else!

Anyways, just my own $.02 worth...


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## Brundo (Oct 29, 2015)

This is an extremely interesting thread. I agree. Too many people are running around with the most expensive gear they could get their hands on claiming to be pro's. (Shamefully I was one of those guys) When I first started I really wanted to make a career out of it. Then I tried posed portraiture and realized I didn't like it. No matter what I did I couldn't get it to work. I (being extremely ignorant) thought portraiture was the only way to make it in photography. However since I could not get portraiture to work, and since I had zero desire to shoot portraiture. I took a step back and looked at what *I* *wanted* to shoot – landscapes and wildlife. I decided to shoot for myself. Not for my mom, or my best friend, or my 3rd cousin twice removed. I realized that if I was forced to shoot what I don't enjoy I would learn to hate my passion. However if I shot what I love then I would never grow tired of learning photography and that I would enjoy the learning process. I don't claim to know much about photography. Check out my photos I'm sure there are dozens of flaws to be found. I realize that there is plenty of room for me to improve and that is honestly one of the best realizations I've come too. Mainly because I shoot because it's my get away. I no longer desire to make money off my work. I do it simply because I enjoy it. I think that if wanna-be photographers took the time to focus in on their motives, learn the art properly, and realized they are not a pro over night just because they have the latest camera and a gig lined up. Then society would be better able to understand what professional photography looks like. This is my $0.02. I don't expect anybody else to hold this same opinion. And again *I am most definitely not a pro.*


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## Vtec44 (Oct 29, 2015)

Dang long thread.   If someone who I feel that's a crappy photographer but getting businesses and I don't, then maybe I'm doing something wrong.  LOL If I don't want to sell my photos and do it as a hobby, then who cares if others are selling their photos.  What about we just do what we do best, and let others do what they want to do?  Have fun, enjoy what you do, take more beautiful photos (paid or unpaid) !


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