# Taking photos in rough neighborhoods



## MarcusM (Sep 20, 2007)

I just wanted to get some feedback on taking photos in rough parts of town. I don't live in the ghetto, but it's not the nicest area either. For the most part it is pretty safe, but there are definitely "pockets" here and there of drug users and delinquents. Mostly it is the rental properties in the neighborhood that are the trouble spots.

Does anyone else have experience shooting in rough neighborhoods? There are so many photo ops here, it's hard to pass up (older buildings, nice architecture, etc.)

I would hate to be a target and get mugged walking around with $1000+ worth of equipment in my hands. I realize that this is an inherent risk any time and any place with photography, but are there any special precautions I should take that would lessen my chance of running into trouble?


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## Sideburns (Sep 20, 2007)

start packin'


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## JDS (Sep 20, 2007)

I was thinkin' the same thing but didn't want to be the first to say it. 

Check this out, if you'd like to actually consider the option.  If you do it, do it legally:
http://www.mnpistolclass.com/Course Details MN.html


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## BEvaristo (Sep 20, 2007)

I have a concealed carry permit here in Georgia but rarely ever carried.  Now that I've gotten into the hobby and carry around my camera and lenses, it is nice knowing I have it.  

I strongly recommend taking classes on safe handling first.  Before you start carrying one, make sure you are mentally prepared to use it without hesitation if you need to.  If you think you can't use it when the time comes, then don't carry it.  In the end, it's better to give up your equipment than have your own gun used on you.  Things can be replaced, lives can't.


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## Mike_E (Sep 20, 2007)

Do not go _*armed*_!!!  That will get you in more trouble than you would ever want.  You will have your eyes and hands on your camera and when you finally realize you have a problem and reach for your gat, you are only going to anger someone who already has the drop on you.

If you really want to shoot there, then go find yourself a camera you won't feel too bad about loosing.  I would suggest you see if you can find a Canon QL17.  There were a ton of them made and it shouldn't be too expensive.  It's an old 35mm range finder with a fast 40mm lens (f1.7) and it will fit in a jacket pocket.  It's also very quiet.  (this from a Nikon guy )

So if someone wants your camera when you are out there, give it up and walk away.  This will be much cheaper than hiring a lawyer if you manage to shoot someone or a doctor if they take your gun too.  It'll also give your family a chance to say "I told you so" so that you can hear it rather than to your corpse.


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## MarcusM (Sep 20, 2007)

Hmmm, I don't know if I need to go as far as carrying a gun...I was thinking more along the lines of carrying pepper spray


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## terri (Sep 20, 2007)

MarcusM said:


> Hmmm, I don't know if I need to go as far as carrying a gun...I was thinking more along the lines of carrying pepper spray


Much better! I also agree with simply carrying a camera that doesn't have as much 'curb appeal', so to speak - if all else failed you could drop it and run. 

Pepper spray if you really think you need to be armed; better to go with a buddy or two, be inconspicuous, let others know where you'll be and don't carry anything of real value.


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## sabbath999 (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's a better idea. Get insurance on your equipment, and if it gets stolen then you are not out anything except a small deductible... nor do you have to spray the neighborhood with bullets.


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## JDS (Sep 20, 2007)

From a self-defense point of view, pepper spray can be effective, but isn't always.  And even if I'm sprayed in my eyes (Yeah, it'll burn really bad), it'll just make me more angry.  Take the following scenario:

If I'm a thug wanting to steal something, I'm not going without a gun or at least a knife, so that I can overpower my victim.  If I'm sprayed, I rub my eyes with one hand and shoot with the other, or lunge with a knife.

I don't like those chances if I'm that victim...that's why I do have a handgun carry permit, and why I always carry.  But to each their own...

The best bet, whether you're armed in any way or not, is to avoid any confrontation by not even being there in the first place.


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## skieur (Sep 20, 2007)

Canadians don't carry guns.  It is, with very few exceptions, illegal.  I have wondered around at night shooting, (with a camera that is..) in Québec all year round and in Ontario as well.  The only place that I had serious problems was the Carribean islands.

In some areas, a fast pocket camera with an f2.8 lens is good.  Avoid being too noticeable and looking like a pro carrying lots of expensive equipment.  Take someone with you, if possible.  My son is over 6 feet tall and built like a brick wall.  A good sized dog (which I have) is also helpful.
Watch what you wear as well.  It is easy to remember the jeans and forget you are still wearing a noticeable expensive watch or rings.

skieur


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## usayit (Sep 20, 2007)

Simply put... if a thug wants it, he/she will get it.  Carrying and drawing a gun is just asking for trouble.. thats a lesson repeated and repeated in classes/training required for concealed weapon license in Texas.  I would never draw a firearm in order to protect my camera.  To protect myself.. yes...  Carrying a lesser weapon (pepper spray for example) is not a bad idea but not a good idea in practicality.  In a bad neighborhood where you are dealing with gangs and drug dealers, 9/10 they are operating as a group.  All you will do is piss them off.

The best idea posted here is to get insurance and shoot.  If you have a camera you don't really mind loosing, take that.  Besides, any good photographer will create a photo using anything.  Be smart.. try to blend in.


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## abraxas (Sep 20, 2007)

The insurance is a good idea.  Other than that, blend in as much as you can.  Dress down and drive a POS mobile if you got one.  Be unobtrusive and keep your eyes open.  Have your keys where you can get to them. Have a plan but don't keep driving by a place making it.  Don't carry a camera bag.  Can you look like a killer?


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## JIP (Sep 20, 2007)

Better yet don't be so damned scared.


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## gomexz (Sep 20, 2007)

Just go naked that will scare them off plus they will see you have nothing of value a side from your camera but whos gunna wrestle a naked guy over a camera?  Not his guy


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## kundalini (Sep 20, 2007)

Be a chameleon....with a buddy.


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## abraxas (Sep 20, 2007)

gomexz said:


> Just go naked that will scare them off plus they will see you have nothing of value a side from your camera but whos gunna wrestle a naked guy over a camera?  Not his guy



This is good, but it could get you arrested- 

... Maybe wear at least a jockstrap.


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## tarpleyg (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike_E said:


> Do not go _*armed*_!!!  That will get you in more trouble than you would ever want.  You will have your eyes and hands on your camera and when you finally realize you have a problem and reach for your gat, you are only going to anger someone who already has the drop on you.


While there is a lot to be said for this sentiment, I only agree with it for different reasons.  I know a great deal about going armed and what to do when, and if, something happens.  Training is key, not a gun, and the one main element of that training is to simply avoid confrontations in the first place.  If you feel like it is too dangerous to show your camera there, it is too dangerous to even be there in the first place.  One of those low-life scabs will kill you just as quick for looking at them wrong as for your camera.

If you are interested in arming yourself for personal protection, there's a ton of training available and I cannot recommend it enough.  On top of taking charge of your life, you'll have fun and learn a lot.  If you want more info, feel free to PM me.

In the meantime, find another place to shoot (pardon the pun).

Greg


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## morydd (Sep 20, 2007)

I live in one of those "rough neighborhoods" and I keep my camera with me most everywhere I go. I rarely have a problem, and trust my instincts for when it's okay to have the camera out, and when I'm better off letting it stay in the bag. I'd advise against a weapon of any sort, for the simple reason that unless you shoot your camera one handed, and that with your non-dominant hand. You cannot get to a weapon to use it quickly and with control, and an uncontrolled weapon (gun, knife, pepperspray, sock-full-of-pennies) is more dangerous to you than to someone who has already decided to make themselves a problem for you. If they come as a surprise, you don't have time to get to your weapon, and if they don't come as a surprise, you should've already gotten the heck out of dodge.

People have been shot less than 20 yards from my door, but I'm still more afraid of getting my camera stolen when I'm near work (Michigan Ave).


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## TCimages (Sep 20, 2007)

JDS said:


> From a self-defense point of view, pepper spray can be effective, but isn't always. And even if I'm sprayed in my eyes (Yeah, it'll burn really bad), it'll just make me more angry. Take the following scenario:
> 
> If I'm a thug wanting to steal something, I'm not going without a gun or at least a knife, so that I can overpower my victim. If I'm sprayed, I rub my eyes with one hand and shoot with the other, or lunge with a knife.
> 
> ...


 
Have you ever been sprayed with Pepper Spray?


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## JIP (Sep 20, 2007)

morydd said:


> I live in one of those "rough neighborhoods" and I keep my camera with me most everywhere I go. I rarely have a problem, and trust my instincts for when it's okay to have the camera out, and when I'm better off letting it stay in the bag. I'd advise against a weapon of any sort, for the simple reason that unless you shoot your camera one handed, and that with your non-dominant hand. You cannot get to a weapon to use it quickly and with control, and an uncontrolled weapon (gun, knife, pepperspray, sock-full-of-pennies) is more dangerous to you than to someone who has already decided to make themselves a problem for you. If they come as a surprise, you don't have time to get to your weapon, and if they don't come as a surprise, you should've already gotten the heck out of dodge.
> 
> People have been shot less than 20 yards from my door, but I'm still more afraid of getting my camera stolen when I'm near work (Michigan Ave).


Honestly I don't see what there is to be scared of.  I agree here you need to know when things are right and when things are wrong and know when to bring out $1000 worth of gear.  As far as the "Low life scabs" do we always have to asssume that if you go somewhere we need to be scared.


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## jstuedle (Sep 20, 2007)

As an aside, I had someone try to take a D1X out of my hands once about 5 years ago. The guy was drunk, and I think he was just wanting to look at the "cool" camera. That, and he was very pushy. I had the strap wrapped around my right wrist and pulled it back with my hand firmly on it's grip. Pushed him away with my left hand (I'm left handed) and told him "Dude, I'll beat you to death with this d@*n thing and then take pictures of your dead limp and lifeless body". He sobered slightly and backed off. Why I said it, I don't know. But I do think it would have survived, don't know about him.


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## MarcusM (Sep 20, 2007)

JIP said:


> Better yet don't be so damned scared.



Who, me?

If I was scared I wouldn't live in the neighborhood. The whole neighborhood overall is not that bad - like I said there are just "pockets" here and there of rental buildings where slumlords rent out to any old crackhead.

There's a difference between being cautious and being scared.


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## Patrolman Pat (Sep 21, 2007)

This'll cause a furore but what the hell. I for one am glad that I don't live in a country where the first rection to photographing in a rough neighbourhood is to carry a weapon.

I'll don my flamesuit and wait for the reaction.


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## Jovian (Sep 21, 2007)

I think I have to agree with the couple people who have said just don't go alone.  Better yet bring a couple different people if possible as a small group.


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## Mike_E (Sep 21, 2007)

You could always get a TLR.  By the time they got through laughing at you, you could be in the next county.  

mike

(really not a lot of classy thugs out there.:lmao::lmao


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## BEvaristo (Sep 21, 2007)

Patrolman Pat said:


> This'll cause a furore but what the hell. I for one am glad that I don't live in a country where the first rection to photographing in a rough neighbourhood is to carry a weapon.
> 
> I'll don my flamesuit and wait for the reaction.




I'm not going to argue with you about that.  You are certainly entitled to that opinion and I respect that.  I've been through a lot of training with many different weapons and have been taught about awareness as well, so I'm comfortable carrying and defending myself if need be.  I don't want to see people going out and getting weapons just to have them, if they haven't been properly trained in their safe handling.

I am in no way advocating going out anywhere alone just because you have a gun with you.  If the situation doesn't look right, I'll move on, with or without any firearm.  Keeping a constant eye on your surroundings is most important.  If anything looks suspicious, follow your instincts and get out.  You can try again later to get the same picture.  Safety in numbers is also very true.


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## (Ghastly) Krueger (Sep 21, 2007)

Patrolman Pat said:


> This'll cause a furore but what the hell. I for one am glad that I don't live in a country where the first rection to photographing in a rough neighbourhood is to carry a weapon.


 
I must admit at first I thought it was a joke... was later surprised to see it was a real suggestion.


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## JHF Photography (Sep 21, 2007)

(Ghastly) Krueger said:


> I must admit at first I thought it was a joke... was later surprised to see it was a real suggestion.


 
You know, I have a funny feeling the first response (the one from Sideburns) was a joke.

And I too was surprised how quickly it became a real suggestion.


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## Iron Flatline (Sep 21, 2007)

Find someone else to shoot with. That tends to change the dynamics of a situation, as well as how you approach things. You'll get more interesting shots because you'll push yourself.


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## MarcusM (Sep 21, 2007)

Those are some good suggestions...the TLR suggestion is funny! I have one - an old Yashica that I took out a couple times. Felt completely safe! (Although I looked like I was doing a Mexican hat dance)

I have this weird thing about shooting with other people. I've thought about it several times because it sounds like fun at first...but then I always imagine us both coming away with the exact same shots...which would take away from the uniqueness and originality. I suppose it would be a lot safer, and fun to try though.


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## Payt (Sep 21, 2007)

I've always wanted to ask these questions, since I feel that some of the best photo ops around here are in the deeper parts of the city. I know that I'd never consider carrying a weapon of any sort, for the evident reasons stated previously. Dressing appropriately is a good idea, and so is being with friends. 

I just can't understand why people are telling this poor guy to forget it and go elsewhere, haha. Greats such as Capa and Burrows would be ashamed of talk like this. You shouldn't avoid what you think to be a great place for shots because it may be risky, you'll never get good photos that way! You've gotta work around the problems.


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## jon_k (Sep 21, 2007)

MarcusM said:


> I have this weird thing about shooting with other people. I've thought about it several times because it sounds like fun at first...but then I always imagine us both coming away with the exact same shots...which would take away from the uniqueness and originality. I suppose it would be a lot safer, and fun to try though.



I've done it quite frequently. At first I would agree with you, now I wouldn't.

You'll get similar shots, but unless they put their tripod in the exact footprint yours was in, they'll be different. In our groups we usually split up in the immediate area and take shots of stuff that interests us, then when we get our shots we regroup and keep walking. Rinse, repeat.

The pictures can be similar but not exact. Besides, if you go somewhere worth photographing, chances are it's already been photographed (many times.)

Rarely if ever in groups have I stood in another photographers footprints and aimed for the exact same perspective/picture. Although I've gone to places where strangers with P&S cameras have done this to me!


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## MarcusM (Sep 22, 2007)

Good points. And I think it would be interesting to see how everyone's shots differed at the end of the day - how everyone took pictures of the same subject but with different angles/perspectives.

I could see there being times where someone would "steal" my shot though. Maybe I had been eyeing a shot and about to take it and then someone else would get there first.

I think I will give it a try sometime.


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## rmh159 (Sep 22, 2007)

Patrolman Pat said:


> This'll cause a furore but what the hell. I for one am glad that I don't live in a country where the first rection to photographing in a rough neighbourhood is to carry a weapon.
> 
> I'll don my flamesuit and wait for the reaction.



I won't flame you but I don't think it's wise to generalize like that.  The US has it's parts that are bad and PLENTY of parts that are good.  I've been through all parts of NYC at nite with my camera out in hand and never once got as much as a 2nd look.

I'd wonder if those that choose to carry guns while shooting in rough neighborhoods have ever had to use them?

In attempt to rerail this topic... I really don't know that it slow me down.  I'd take a friend and just have fun.  Don't loiter around and review every picture.. plan out your shots so you can go, get the shot and then get out of there... and just use some common sense.


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## eddiesimages (Sep 22, 2007)

The main thing is to use common sense. Don't go to a neighborhood with a camera that you wouldn't otherwise get out and walk around in. Avoid situations that put you in danger. A photograph is not worth losing your camera over or getting yourself hurt. Absolutely do not carry pepper spray as a security blanket. You should be trained in the use of pepper spray just as you should a handgun. Pepper spray doesn't work on everyone. It doesn't work on me and yes, I have been sprayed several times. I carry a gun daily, but would not recommend anyone carrying one that hasn't had extensive training. Just use common sense and don't put yourself in dangerous situations for a good photograph. It's not worth it.


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## JamesD (Sep 22, 2007)

I'll agree that planning and situational awareness are the key things here.  Take what you need, watch what you do, watch the situation _and take a companion!_

Two sets of eyes are always better than one.  I don't normally go out with someone else when I go shooting (with cameras, that is); however, if I was going somewhere I didn't feel safe, you bet your bottom dollar I'm taking someone with me, even if they're not interested in photography.

On to weapons.  First off, if you carry any weapon, it is NOT, I say again NOT to protect your gear.  It is to protect YOURSELF (and in most states of the Union, protection of others).  If a mugger wants your camera, give it to them.  If they want your wallet, give it to them.  If they want your car, give it to them.  The only time a gun comes out of a holster is when you are in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death.  (And yes, if you carry, for God's sake, use a holster.)

If you carry, hell, if you even _own_ a firearm, become extremely familiar with it.  Shootings are almost always at a range of a few feet, and also extremely high-stress situations.  Consequently, it's easy to miss, drop your weapon, or have any other number of extremely BAD things happen (for the record, those two qualify as pretty close to the worst possible things to have happen).  Training with your equipment is extremely crucial, and I'm not talking just target practice, but actual "tactical" training.  There's a lot of stuff to do between saying "Oh, ****!" and squeezing the trigger, and you'd be surprised how little time there is to do it, especially when you're not expecting it, which you probably won't be.

Also, if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on camera gear, and hundreds of dollars on a firearm (and if you're smart, training), plus whatever it costs to obtain a carry permit; then do yourself a favor and spend another hundred or so on an hour or two of time with an attorney who is well versed in self-defense and deadly force laws.  I am absolutely amazed that people do not do this, thinking they know all there is to know about the law.  _I cannot emphasize this enough._

I'm not saying "get a gun" or "don't get a gun." That's your choice and your right to make that choice.  However, whatever you do, do it wisely and make yourself fully aware and competent.  It is not a game, and it is not the movies.


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## eddiesimages (Sep 24, 2007)

I agree completely. Excellent advice JamesD!


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## JIP (Sep 24, 2007)

MarcusM said:


> Who, me?
> 
> If I was scared I wouldn't live in the neighborhood. The whole neighborhood overall is not that bad - like I said there are just "pockets" here and there of rental buildings where slumlords rent out to any old crackhead.
> 
> There's a difference between being cautious and being scared.


Sorry I did not want to suggest that you are scared it just seems like there are few people on this board that think the only way they would go into "that" neighborhood with "those" people is if they are strapped and I think that is silly to say the least if not just downright dangerous but I have to say it is the american way.


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## table1349 (Sep 24, 2007)

Sorry, but I have to give that typical 25 year veteran cop answer to this one.  If your gut feeling says that you shouldn't be there, that it is dangerous or you could get robbed or hurt, then don't go.

Unless this is a paid assignment such as a war correspondent, then why would you do so?  Do you really need to go into a place like that and volunteer to be a victim?  I spent the first 12 years of my career in just those kinds of neighborhoods.  All you are going to do is put your welfare and maybe your life in danger, and probably give the cops one more thing to worry about that they really didn't need.  

*Disclaimer:  *The above statement is the personal view of a 25 year veteran law enforcement officer.  It in no way reflects the views or beliefs of the members of this station.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.


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## Los Angeles (Mar 6, 2008)

This is so simple.  Find a friend that you run faster than and has a better camera than you.  Take him with you.


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## shorty6049 (Mar 7, 2008)

my first reaction would not be to carry a weapon. I feel like having a gun on me would just make things more dangerous... I personally though, have sort of always been against guns i guess...  I know how it is though Marcus. I live at UST, (as you know ) and theres a cool area with a paper mill and stuff kind of between 94 and university ave. but i've always been afraid to go over there to take pictures just because it seems like a good place to get mugged...


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## BPALMER (Mar 7, 2008)

usayit said:


> Simply put... if a thug wants it, he/she will get it.  Carrying and drawing a gun is just asking for trouble.. thats a lesson repeated and repeated in classes/training required for concealed weapon license in Texas.  I would never draw a firearm in order to protect my camera.  To protect myself.. yes...  Carrying a lesser weapon (pepper spray for example) is not a bad idea but not a good idea in practicality.  In a bad neighborhood where you are dealing with gangs and drug dealers, 9/10 they are operating as a group.  All you will do is piss them off.
> 
> The best idea posted here is to get insurance and shoot.  If you have a camera you don't really mind loosing, take that.  Besides, any good photographer will create a photo using anything.  Be smart.. try to blend in.





ABSOLUTELY CORRECT ! i have been ccw for years now,and the law is pretty similiar in most states...shoot to protect from loss of life not loss of property. and if you do shoot be prepared legally.YOU WILL BE SUED! right wrong or indifferent you will need an atty.,either to prove your innocence or to reduce your sentence.....


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## djrichie28 (Mar 7, 2008)

What time of day are you thinking of going?  

If there are slumlords renting to crackheads, then they usually party hard at nightime especially on the weekend.  

Grab a friend and trek out on a Sunday morning when the light is perfect just after sunrise.


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## JIP (Mar 7, 2008)

Um.... Guys... This thread was from september I think the issue has been resolved already.


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## Fiendish Astronaut (Mar 7, 2008)

JIP said:


> Um.... Guys... This thread was from september I think the issue has been resolved already.



I think this thread has become more philosophy than advice.


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## JIP (Mar 7, 2008)

But still the guy has either been shot or succesfull by now let it go.  Start a new thread if you want to talk this philosophy and if so I think it fits better in off-topic.


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## BostonBrother (Mar 7, 2008)

gomexz said:


> Just go naked that will scare them off plus they will see you have nothing of value a side from your camera but whos gunna wrestle a naked guy over a camera?  Not his guy



Good logic, but then again its hard to take a picture with your hands cuffed behind your back in the back seat of a police car.  However, if you can talk them into letting you take some pictures they might make for some interesting perspective shots!


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## Antithesis (Mar 8, 2008)

If your walking around a place where there are actual 'Thieves' with knives and guns waiting to murder any old person for $1000, you should probably move. Let's be realisic here, robberies like that are pretty spur of the moment. I don't think there are that many people walking around with weapons looking to steal expensive things off people, especially in neighborhoods where most people won't do that. 

If you feel like your life is going to be in danger because "it looks like a nice place to shoot", it's probably not a good risk to reward ratio. 

Also, advising someone to bring a firearm because they want to take photos is just retarded. I'm sorry, but nobody needs to get killed over a camera, not even the thief. That's like saying you have no problem shooting someone over a computer or something.


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## JIP (Mar 8, 2008)

Please Please let it die!!!!!


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## abraxas (Mar 8, 2008)

First thing when you get there, kill someone.  Tends to intimidate.


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## Renair (Mar 9, 2008)

If your going to go somewhere, were you feel you need to carry a gun and might need to use it, go to Iraq or Israel!  If not, just dont go to the ghetto, afterall, no photo is worth getting beat up over or shot!


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## Tennessee Landscape (Mar 9, 2008)

It looks like this subject has been pretty well slapped around, but here is my $.02.  I comes down to "street smarts".  I grew up in and around some pretty rough areas.  Been jumped and beat up several times, and lived to tell about it.  I have since moved to a less violent area.  Notice I said "less" violent.  I have and carry a gun when I find myself shooting (photo shooting that is) in areas where there is the risk of danger.  I do have a permit for those who are wondering, and I take time to stay familiar with my gun just like my camera. The gun is not there to protect my camera either, it's there to protect me.....but a very last resort.  Yet growing up around danger, I can look ahead at a situation a tell very quicly if it's something I can or should avoid......AND, that's they key.  All it takes it just that one second of bad luck, and you're in a world of poop.  Think of it this way, "You have to be lucky all the time, the thugs only have to be lucky once".  Your head is the most important weapon for self defense and survival.  Make sure you know how to use it.


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## THORHAMMER (Mar 9, 2008)

abraxas said:


> First thing when you get there, kill someone.  Tends to intimidate.



hahahahaa


I think you just have to do what you have to do, if you need to get the shots, get the shots. have your cell on and ready to dial, and know the streets around you. If you get a bad bad gut feeling go away and come back in 30 minutes. scope it out very good park on higher ground and look for 5 minutes before you get out of your car. dont let your in car lights turn on when you open your door. 

little stuff like that can help you be unnoticed. 

Have your camera already on your tripod. When you take off, dont take it off , just set in in the back seat safely, and take off if you can. 

these small issues can shave minutes off your actual time in the bad area. 

If you see someone scoping you out pretend to be on your cell phone and look at them as your talking. chances are they will walk away. if not, you should take off. 

Get your shots and take off. if your shooting at night with a tripod, dress in detective like clothes, jeans and a sweater with a cell phone earpiece and a notepad. Chances are they will think you are working for the government and itll take more of them to finally think up the courage to bug you. By that time your allready done. 

hope it helps even a little.


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## almaswimmer2010 (Mar 11, 2008)

Ive worked in the city with a traffic crew and we had to go into some rough neighbor hoods to do work and these are the main ideas i got.

1. Early Morning- if they arent awake they cant steal from you.
2. Dont act like you own the place but dont act like a scared B*tch
3. Dont carry alot of stuff figure out what lense you want and use it the more you carry the more inviting to robbery you are.
4.bring a friend
5. If you do bring a gun remember it isnt to flash around and act hard its for that last resort cant get to my car use it as a deterence. Because once you pull the Gun your never gonna get back in that neighbor hood.

But my best would be make sure you go in the morning and they wont be awake


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## Socrates (Mar 11, 2008)

sabbath999 said:


> Here's a better idea. Get insurance on your equipment, and if it gets stolen then you are not out anything except a small deductible... nor do you have to spray the neighborhood with bullets.



I just added my newer equipment as "scheduled coverage" on my homeowner's policy.  The coverage is "all risk" with zero deductible and, in the event of loss, the payout is replacement cost.  I'll get my D80 replaced if I drop it down a flight of stairs!  Costs me $40/year for $2500 of equipment but I don't know how much the price varies with location (I'm in NJ).


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## Snyder (Mar 11, 2008)

Renair said:


> If your going to go somewhere, were you feel you need to carry a gun and might need to use it, go to Iraq or Israel!


 
Been there done that, I had a few close calls but capture some good photos that got picked up in many newspapers and magazines. Though I dont have to shoot a gun unless its a last resort, like im the only one left alive kind of scenerio.


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## crystal_lynn (Mar 17, 2008)

Here is what I do:
1) Call police and hubby and let them know where I will be shooting and when.

2) Always bring a male friend that is of the same general nationality of the neighborhood, ie Asian, Black, Hispanic, etc. (Milwaukee is pretty segregated.)

3) Leave if intuition tells me to.

4) I had a fake news badge made up.  If people inquire I tell them I am doing a documentary on the unfairness/plight of minorities.  Usually gets them talking and gives you more "protection".

5) Always, always, got my dog.  She is little but feisty, most people either find her a threat or cute.  either way it helps me.

6) Only carry what I absolutely will need.

7) Don't act scared or nervous.

8) Treat them with respect and usually you will get respect in return.

9) Ask younger neighborhood kids to "help" have them hold reflectors and such even if you don't need them.

I think the younger kids helping and the fake badge are the two things that help the most though.  

HTH


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## Mystwalker (Mar 19, 2008)

Get insurance.

If something happens, give up the camera.

Weapon/s never a good idea because people who want your camera will either surprise you, be in larger numbers, or have weapons themselves.

Not worth getting hurt over couple thousand dollars - especially if insured.

If you ask nicely, maybe they will give you back the CF card so it's not a total waste of time


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## JohnMF (Mar 19, 2008)

i like to carry a sword when i am taking photos in a rough neighbourhood, either that or a lance... if anyone gives me any trouble, i just get medieval on their ass...


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## JimmyO (Mar 19, 2008)

Havent had time to read through all posts...

I go to church in South Camden, NJ. For those of you who dont know that right up there next to Compton. Its also 10 minutes away from Morrestown. Which for those of you who dont know was voted the best city to live in in USA. I live right between the 2, so i get it all. My family goes to church there becuase it makes you feel like your making a difference by going there and helping the poor. You have to understand 90 percent of the people there are pretty much the opposite of violent (not saying not scary, haha) I have been there at 12 at night for Christmass night mass. You dont feel the most comfortable, but you still go out there. They key to being comfortable is being with other people. One person is not going to take on 5 over something they might not be sure of the value of. Another obvious thing is to go during the daylight hours. Try to fit in by wearing simple dull clothes and keeping your gear in a kachi(sp?) bag and drive a "beater car". 

Good luck!


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## Sarah23 (Mar 19, 2008)

I know this is totally an old subject by now...but had to put my .2 cents in.

Personally I carry a gun...but I do that no matter where I go. Mall, store, park...anywhere...and I live in a very safe area. Why? Because I would much rather be safe then sorry, and be able to protect myself and my children.  But as stated before...that weapon is NOT to protect your equipment, its to protect YOU. You do not draw your weapon unless you are in fear for YOUR life and intend to actually shoot.


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## koigirl (Mar 19, 2008)

Crystal Lynn (and others),

Are you assuming that the residents of this "unsafe" area are "minorities?

I've read thru the entire post and I'm surprised no one has just come out and say that they are afraid to be in areas populated by people who are not white?  Could the sight of black and brown faces be the reason for fear?

Just know that crime happens everwhere. Would anyone be afraid in a neighborhood of white people?  I guess it all depends on the skin you're living in.


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## abraxas (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm just wondering -what- it is you're going to get out of this trip into the deepest, darkest nooks and crannies of the urban clutch?  Like a million bucks or something?  Is it worth, like, Ninja training, or sniper school?- Psychotic art maybe?


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## JerryPH (Mar 20, 2008)

JohnMF said:


> i like to carry a sword when i am taking photos in a rough neighbourhood, either that or a lance... if anyone gives me any trouble, i just get medieval on their ass...


 
That doesn't help when someone else gets medieval on your ass with a 44 magnum from 10 feet away... lol


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

I think the gun is a very good idea. I have spoken to many
police officers and almost all of them are 100% for the 
2nd amendment. I see some posts saying it will get you into 
trouble but I don't see how. Carrying the gun and showing it
if something occurs is way enough to scare anybody off.

Even though I'm too young, In NYC nobody can have a gun
unless your a cop or you hire a $1,000,000 lawyer. I am also
too young to carry pepper spray so I am left with nothing really.
I keep my camera in a camera bag inside my backpack (school type).


When my cousins come to Brooklyn from Florida they are always
scared and I don't know why. If you walk around like a tourist or 
like your scared obviously someone will take advantage of it.
Just walk around like it's your neighborhood too and that's it.

And now one of my favorite quotes I've heard from cops:
"I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6"


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## bhop (Mar 20, 2008)

abraxas said:


> I'm just wondering -what- it is you're going to get out of this trip into the deepest, darkest nooks and crannies of the urban clutch?  Like a million bucks or something?  Is it worth, like, Ninja training, or sniper school?- Psychotic art maybe?



I think he was just asking about the neighborhood he lives in..


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> I think the gun is a very good idea. I have spoken to many
> police officers and almost all of them are 100% for the
> 2nd amendment. I see some posts saying it will get you into
> trouble but I don't see how. Carrying the gun and showing it
> ...


 
With that type of thinking, I doubt seriously that you'll live long enough to drink legally.

By the way, that quote has nothing to do with _carrying_ a weapon.


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> With that type of thinking, I doubt seriously that you'll live long enough to drink legally.




What did I say wrong?


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> What did I say wrong?



*"Carrying the gun and showing it if something occurs is way enough to scare anybody off."*

No.  It's a good way to die.


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> *"Carrying the gun and showing it if something occurs is way enough to scare anybody off."*
> 
> No.  It's a good way to die.



No. This is a way to survive.

Muggers don't want to fight with you. If you show them
that you are armed and are ready to fight back they WILL 
back down!!


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## Mystwalker (Mar 20, 2008)

koigirl said:


> Crystal Lynn (and others),
> 
> Are you assuming that the residents of this "unsafe" area are "minorities?
> 
> ...


 
I do not know the areas mentioned because I have never been there.

Unfortunately, many of these "unsafe areas" are minorities.

Yes, you can get beat up or shot in any area, but your chance of getting jumped for your equipment increases when you carry more around your neck (DSLR+lens) then most residents make in a month.

Also, I believe OP live in or close to this area.

Best idea is to insure your equipment.  You can be Rambo, beat up your attackers, and lose everything to their stinking lawyers.  In college, an African American (to be politically correct) tried to mug me - I kicked his butt - I got slapped with excessive something or another ... I guess I can't kick him after I had him on ground?  In this sue happy nation of ours, you are better off giving up your equipment and dealing with insurance company.  

$25 for $2500 worth of equipment is a steal compared to hiring a lawyer to explain why you had to shoot the ass (10 times) trying to mug you.


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> No. This is a way to survive.
> 
> Muggers don't want to fight with you. If you show them
> that you are armed and are ready to fight back they WILL
> back down!!



As I said, you won't make it to 18 with that thinking.


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

Mystwalker said:


> ... I guess I can't kick him after I had him on ground?



That's absolutely correct.  You have the right to defend yourself but not to exact revenge afterwards.  Be glad that it was only a civil suit.  You could have been brought up on criminal charges.


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> That's absolutely correct.  You have the right to defend yourself but not to exact revenge afterwards.  Be glad that it was only a civil suit.  You could have been brought up on criminal charges.




That's just stupid. 
I think if someone is getting mugged and fights back 
it's the attackers fault if he ends up in a coma.


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> That's just stupid.
> I think if someone is getting mugged and fights back
> it's the attackers fault if he ends up in a coma.



You completely ignored the issue.  This was not during the "fight back."


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> You completely ignored the issue.  This was not during the "fight back."




Yep it was kicking his *** so he knows better for next time
instead of protecting the criminal and giving him MONEY!!!


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## almaswimmer2010 (Mar 20, 2008)

koigirl said:


> Crystal Lynn (and others),
> 
> Are you assuming that the residents of this "unsafe" area are "minorities?
> 
> ...


 
If you look at the statistics then yes the "unsafe" areas would be occupied by "minorities", i mean stereotypes arent just made up by somewhite guy sitting in a room without ever observing the outside world, stereotypes are created by observations of a group acting a certain repeatingly not just once.


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## Mystwalker (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> That's absolutely correct. You have the right to defend yourself but not to exact revenge afterwards. Be glad that it was only a civil suit. You could have been brought up on criminal charges.


 
"Revenge" was furthest thing from my mind - I just wanted to get out of situation - beating him up was continuous part of defense after I got him on ground. Not like I walked away and decided to come back to get him.  Not sure what lawyers would've thrown at me if I had shot him - is that considered worse then beating him up?

As a nerdly student, I was just a target of opportunity.

If I were carrying expensive equipment and someone plan to mug me for that equipment, today, I will give up the equipment and contact my insurance company. Not worth getting beat up, or shot, AND I have no idea what is considered justifiable nowadays.


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## JJP (Mar 20, 2008)

I once nearly got mugged with $4000+ worth of equipment on me, luckily the guy was drunk so he went down like a sack of potatoes haha, but the best advice would be to definitely always keep your equipment insured, and never put yourself at risk over your camera.


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> Yep it was kicking his *** so he knows better for next time
> instead of protecting the criminal and giving him MONEY!!!



Interesting that you're willing to risk a lawsuit AND a criminal conviction.  Forget about the Sullivan Law.  As a convicted felon, you won't be able to buy a gun _anywhere_ in this country.


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## eterrisinCYQX (Mar 20, 2008)

Good thing to learn would be basic martial arts takedown moves. I can and have taken someone twice my size to the ground in about two seconds. This was a controlled environment, thankfully I've never had to do it anywhere else. And, unless the other guy has the training, he's not gonna know what you're doing or how to counter. Most important thing to remember, though, is just drop him and get away.


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## Socrates (Mar 20, 2008)

Mystwalker said:


> "Revenge" was furthest thing from my mind - I just wanted to get out of situation - beating him up was continuous part of defense after I got him on ground. Not like I walked away and decided to come back to get him.  Not sure what lawyers would've thrown at me if I had shot him - is that considered worse then beating him up?
> 
> As a nerdly student, I was just a target of opportunity.
> 
> If I were carrying expensive equipment and someone plan to mug me for that equipment, today, I will give up the equipment and contact my insurance company. Not worth getting beat up, or shot, AND I have no idea what is considered justifiable nowadays.



Revenge might have been the furthest thing from your mind but your actions did not convey that.  Once he was on the ground, you were no longer defending yourself, regardless of what you believe.  It IS like you walked away and decided to come back to get him.

If you had shot him?  What do you think?


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## abraxas (Mar 20, 2008)

bhop said:


> I think he was just asking about the neighborhood he lives in..



No, I mean overall.  What is in these neighborhoods that one would want a picture of so bad to go through all of this?


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 20, 2008)

Socrates said:


> Interesting that you're willing to risk a lawsuit AND a criminal conviction.  Forget about the Sullivan Law.  As a convicted felon, you won't be able to buy a gun _anywhere_ in this country.




That's true but not me.

Anyone who is willing to fight and knock the guy out is
probably not going to call the cops after 
and neither is the mugger.


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## crystal_lynn (Mar 20, 2008)

koigirl said:


> Crystal Lynn (and others),
> 
> Are you assuming that the residents of this "unsafe" area are "minorities?
> 
> ...


 
I believe I stated to bring a friend that fits in with the general nationality of the neighborhood.  Skin color does not equal violent and unsafe, however individuals in that neighborhood will be less suspicious of you if you are there with someone of their skincolor/nationality.

My family is a mix of asian, black, italian, native american, and more.  I would have to be afraid of more than half of my family if my fear was based on skin color.


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## NYPhotographer (Mar 21, 2008)

crystal_lynn said:


> I believe I stated to bring a friend that fits in with the general nationality of the neighborhood.  Skin color does not equal violent and unsafe, however individuals in that neighborhood will be less suspicious of you if you are there with someone of their skincolor/nationality.
> 
> My family is a mix of asian, black, italian, native american, and more.  I would have to be afraid of more than half of my family if my fear was based on skin color.



Correct.

Same goes for my neighborhood. In my Jewish neighborhood
when I walk down the street people look in curiosity and all  
(it's really annoying) but if a person who was not visibly Jewish
were doing that in my neighborhood there would be problems. 

And I have seen this myself: I was walking down the street and
I saw a guy taking pictures that wasn't "Jewish", I then
saw some guys on immediately getting on cell phones calling
probably the cops while they were observing and watching him.

It's just a community thing it makes no difference where really.


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## Renair (Mar 21, 2008)

So, next thing, lets see this photos that caused such a huge stir.......


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## Socrates (Mar 21, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> That's true but not me.


 
You've previously made it clear that you're the poster boy for that statement.


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## Tasmaster (Mar 21, 2008)

If someone is attacking you and you knock them down, you want to be really sure that they can't get back up immediately and follow you, call their friends, or grab a heavy object while you are walking away. That's depending on the particular circumstances; probably not in college, but certainly in a bad neighborhood.

In the end it comes own to who has a better lawyer, right?


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## Socrates (Mar 21, 2008)

Tasmaster said:


> If someone is attacking you and you knock them down, you want to be really sure that they can't get back up immediately and follow you, call their friends, or grab a heavy object while you are walking away. That's depending on the particular circumstances; probably not in college, but certainly in a bad neighborhood.
> 
> In the end it comes own to who has a better lawyer, right?


 
You've described a situation that's very much in the "shades of gray."  Would a reasonable person fear that this individual might "get back up immediately and follow you, call their friends, or grab a heavy object while you are walking away" or are you exacting revenge?  If the former, then you haven't done anything wrong but if the latter, then you're guilty of battery.

You would certainly need a "better lawyer" because your intentions are not clear in this example, as you have described it.  However, there may be other conditions that you have not included.  Perhaps this individual shouted to you that he intends to "get back up, etc." and therefore your actions are completely justified.  On the other hand, perhaps he was unconscious and your actions are totally unjustified.

Proof is, of course, a concern.  In the extreme case, the mugger could allege that you initiated the original attack and he was merely defending himself.  In the absence of witnesses, it becomes a case of who is more believable to a jury and, again, a "better lawyer" is clearly important.


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## Socrates (Mar 21, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> Yep it was kicking his *** so he knows better for next time
> instead of protecting the criminal and giving him MONEY!!!


 
You're advocating criminal activity (battery).


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## LaFoto (Mar 21, 2008)

Wow, this discussion has gone far into some specific detail! Could it not be returned to "*Taking photos* in a rough neighbourhood", like had been the OP's intention? I think that'd be fitting this thread.

When I took this photo here
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/2349728458_a5c3c608b1.jpg
I guess we *were* in a rough neighbourhood, though I cannot really know, but I still believe that the scene I captured is on the "rough side", I believe there was a drug deal going on in broadest daylight, but I was quite confident, maybe also too naive to know, that nothing would happen to me for my taking the photo. And nothing did, either.

In the 2 years that have passed since, I often wonder if I ought to have been that much on the brink of panic as my husband was when I took the photo (and also displayed my entire photo equipment, since I meant to also take some photos with the Leica, but at that point DH nearly snapped and hissed and hissed for me to wrap it all up fast and pack it away). At the time, though, I never felt any danger.


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## abraxas (Mar 21, 2008)

LaFoto said:


> Wow, ...
> I never felt any danger.



Nice shot Corinna.

Sounds like you went in escorted, did what you wanted to do, and then got out.


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## JIP (Mar 21, 2008)

NYPhotographer said:


> I think the gun is a very good idea. I have spoken to many
> police officers and almost all of them are 100% for the
> 2nd amendment. I see some posts saying it will get you into
> trouble but I don't see how. Carrying the gun and showing it
> ...


 
I really wish this thread would die since it is ages old but I feel this needs to be addressed.  You claim you have advice from a policeman that "showing it if something occors is way enough to scare someone off" and I think if you ttruly had gotten advice from any law enforcement officer he/she would have told you something very different.  If you carry a gun and draw that gun on someone when you do you should have the intent of killing that person and nothing else.  I know this is a very harsh thing to say and this is exactly the reason I don't have/carry a gun but flashing a weapon around without the force behind it is a great way to get yourself killed.


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## compur (Mar 21, 2008)

I suggest using a "low tech" appearing camera.

Examples:  Canonet GIII, Rollei 35, any vintage folding camera or TLR or 
even a Holga/Diana.

Or, you can go "stealth."  One trick I have done is to put a Yashica TLR
inside a paper bag with a hole in the bag for the taking lens.  I use a
400 ISO film outdoors and "point & shoot" camera settings (preset hyperfocal
focus and small aperture so that everything from a few feet away to infinity 
is in focus.  I can shoot by pressing shutter release from outside the bag
and wind by reaching inside, etc.

Oh, and some pepper spray wouldn't hurt too.


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## MX962 (Mar 23, 2008)

try wearing an FBI hat or DEA . just kidding ! Part of my list of gear is a hand gun but I dont recomend it to every one ,you know a full size cam with big glass held by the strap and slung at some one, just mite hurt a bit


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## table1349 (Mar 23, 2008)

JIP said:


> I really wish this thread would die since it is ages old but I feel this needs to be addressed.  You claim you have advice from a policeman that "showing it if something occors is way enough to scare someone off" and I think if you ttruly had gotten advice from any law enforcement officer he/she would have told you something very different.  If you carry a gun and draw that gun on someone when you do you should have the intent of killing that person and nothing else.  I know this is a very harsh thing to say and this is exactly the reason I don't have/carry a gun but flashing a weapon around without the force behind it is a great way to get yourself killed.




Sorry JIP but I just had to jump in on this one and add to it.  Like you, I too wish this thread would die.

I've been a law enforcement officer for 26 years and I can tell you that no self respecting knowledgeable LEO would ever tell anyone to carry a gun and flash it around.  While most officers support the 2nd amendment we also support knowledge, training, experience and conviction for any citizen that can and does legally carry a firearm. 

First, if you are not carrying it legally you are now a criminal yourself.  Plus, if you have no legal right to carry the weapon, if you are confronted by an officer, you very well could get hurt or killed.  Anytime an incident happens with deadly force, officers are trained to take out the most lethal force first.   If you are the one with the gun, you are the most lethal force.  We had an incident in my area a few years ago where a young man decided to play good guy after  his sisters parked vehicle had been struck by a hit and run driver.  Grabbed a shotgun and took off after the vehicle.  Citizens called in the reckless driving and the mother called in the incident.  The officers located the young man and stopped him.  They ordered him from the vehicle as the shotgun was sitting in plain view in the car next to the young man.  For what ever reason he decided to grab hold of the shotgun.  He was shot by the offices for his actions.  He did happen to live.

In my state we have a carry concealed law that allows those that are trained and pass some tests to carry a handgun concealed with a permit.  I have no problem with that.  To date, we have not had an incident because of it.  We will at some point I am sure.  There are a couple of things to remember if you happen to be a citizen that can legally carry a concealed weapon.  

First, if you choose to carry that weapon you choose to be responsible for all of you actions involving that weapon.  You must know the law and when deadly force is legal.  Deadly force is legal to protect your life or the life of another.  It is not legal to use deadly force to protect personal property.  If you do, you are subject to being charged with the appropriate charge for the result of your use of deadly force.  That could be some form of aggravated assault charge all the way up to some form of homicide charge. 

Secondly, if you choose to carry a handgun you better damn well be prepared to use that weapon if necessary, without hesitation. You hesitate and you are dead.   If you think that "flashing" that gun around will do any good you are just begging to get yourself killed.  I've worked more than one killing where someone thought that showing a gun would solve the problem.  Most of those dead citizens were killed with their own gun that were taken away from them.  

If you have never dealt with the kinds of people that can commit crimes of violence you have no clue to the way they think or will act.  You look at the world from your rosy little perspective right up to the point they kill you grave yard dead. I have enough to do with out people going out with their rose colored glasses on volunteering to get hurt or killed because they don't know any better or just plain lack common sense.  

Finally, if you choose to legally carry a handgun, if you get into a situation and LEO's show up, you do everything the LEO tells you, exactly the way they tell you, exactly when they tell you unless you want to become just another accident.  When we show up at a scene nobody gives us a program that lists the players.  You are all bad guys until we get things under control  and can sort things out.  Then things change.  It's not that we don't know that there are good guys and bad guys, it's just that we have to sort it out for ourselves and not take someone else's word for it.  

If you happen to be that law abiding citizen that is legally carrying that handgun and you happen to have to use it in some fashion, when we arrive, put the gun down and step away from the weapon.  If you in your excitement happen to move the muzzle of that weapon in my direction or the direction of one of my fellow officers, you have now placed me or one of them at risk and I will pull the trigger without hesitation.  I know, trust me on that one.  

And for the record, we are not taught to shoot to kill, we are taught to shoot to stop.  The best place to stop someone that has a weapon is to shoot for center mass.  Harder to miss them that way.  Center mass is the center of the chest area.  Unfortunately that is the same area that holds a lot of vital organs.  

If you don't think that in the heat of a gun fight that your aim is a little less accurate than when you are shooting at a paper target, well come on out to our range.  I will gladly take you down to our simulator room and give you a weapon with blanks.  While you are shooting at the threats that pop up at you I will be adding that nervous factor of a real gun fight, cause I will be shooting you with a paint ball gun and I will be aiming right at your crotch.  One shot with a paint ball there and you will have a healthy respect for that non-lethal weapon folks like to shoot at each other in their make believe battles.  Believe me, after that the pucker factor really sets in fast and your hands will shake like you never thought they would.


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## JIP (Mar 23, 2008)

You pretty much covered what I was trying to say....


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## abraxas (Mar 23, 2008)

MX962 said:


> try wearing an FBI hat or DEA . ...



Or just a trench coat and rubber sandals.  Look perverted.


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## Easy_Target (Mar 25, 2008)

Use a Holga. 

If you are not prepared/willing to fight to defend your life, don't go.

If you are not willing to risk losing your equipment, don't bring it. 

Don't go by yourself. Have 2-3 friends with you.

Don't get wrapped up in what you're shooting, make sure you're always aware of what's going on around you.


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## Arch (Mar 26, 2008)

two requests for wishing this thread would die is enough for me, and i totally agree, nothing more can really be added.


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