# Wedding..."legal"..issues



## roz (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm fairly new to photography and just finished my first wedding shoot last weekend.
Prior to the wedding, the bride had call me up to ask if her cousin could "shadow" me, as she was a new photographer and wanted to take a few candids as a gift to the bride and groom. I said sure. I think in my mind, I assumed she would be some young chick with a janky camera, who I'd take under my wing like Gandalf. I don't know man..
Anyways, the bride and groom signed my contract. One of the clauses in it, is that I'm the sole professional photographer during the wedding.
So I get there and the bride's cousin shows up with at LEAST 20k in camera equipment. I immediately feel intimidated, pissed and speechless. We head outside so can do the formals before the wedding. I'm photographing the bride and the groom, she's pulling groups together to photograph without my knowledge. 
We head back inside to do the ceremony. I'm front and center so I can get a great view of the bride coming down the isle AND THIS LADY WALKS INTO THE ISLE AND STARTS PHOTOGRAPHING. I finally make eye contact with her and motion for her to move the f out of the way. She rolls her eyes and continues shooting.
Needless to say, I have 98 images with her fat head and body in my frame. Twenty images were her in my shot while the bride walked down the isle. She was asked to move multiple times, she ignored.
Next day, I go to upload a images onto my facebook page, so I can tag the bridge and groom and this cousin has uploaded her images to her BUSINESS page (Which I was unaware of), watermarked them and tagged the entire wedding party in every picture. Ten of these images were poses I had put together, that she took standing directly behind me. 
So I send her a message and ask her to remove them. That is was a breach in the bride and grooms contract and to avoid bugging them on their honeymoon, I'd prefer for her to amend the situation without further discussion.
She tells me I have no ground to harass her, that she will file a harassment charge, refuses to take down her images and tells me that if I contact her again, she will seek legal help.
What the heck do I do?
I copy and pasted the entire conversation and sent it to the bride so that she was aware of the situation. I asked the bride to have her cousin remove her images and she said she would talk to her when she got back from her honeymoon, which is in two weeks.
I don't think that's right either.
Please help.


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## roz (Jul 14, 2014)

Please excuse typos, small toddler on lap beating me with a cabbage patch doll...


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## tirediron (Jul 14, 2014)

Consult a lawyer.  The time to have done something was at the event.  If you're going to be a wedding shooter, you have to TAKE CHARGE!  If someone starts mucking about, you have to sort it out right then and there.


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## limr (Jul 14, 2014)

Well, a quick look at Washington statute (state, right? Not DC?) will show you that her harassment threat is a load of crap.

The relevant section for criminal charges:


> *9A.46.020 Definition &#8212; Penalties*(1) A person is guilty of harassment if:
> 
> (a) Without lawful authority, the person knowingly threatens:
> 
> ...



Assuming you're not threatening to hurt her, damage her property, or keep her hostage, then that leaves "without lawful authority, maliciously do any other act which is intended to substantially harm the person threatened or another with respect to his or her physical or mental health or safety." First of all, the contract was between you and the bride, so you DO have lawful authority to confront her about her behavior. Second, you're not acting maliciously with the intent to substantially harm the person's physical or mental health. 

In other words, it's not enough to just annoy someone. 

Relevant information about civil charges:


> Defining Harassment
> Washington state law (RCW Chapter 10.14) defines unlawful harassment as a knowing and willful course of conduct directed at a specific person which seriously alarms, annoys, harasses or is detrimental to such person and *serves no legitimate or lawful purpose*. The course of conduct shall be such as would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotion distress, or when the course of conduct would cause a reasonable parent to fear for the well-being of their child.



Your contact with her has a legitimate and lawful purpose.



> Under Washington law, "course of conduct" means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. "Course of conduct" includes the sending of an electronic communication, *but does not include constitutionally protected free speech.* An individual may request an order of protection that may prohibit harassment, contact and restrain the person (respondent) from coming within a specific distance of one's residence, workplace or school.



In other words, a real threat or 'fighting words" (like saying you're going to kill her if she doesn't take the photos down, and if it's clear that you mean it) are NOT protected, but telling her she behaved poorly and interfered with your work - even calling her a ***** if you want - IS protected. 

So, forget about her threat.

As for the contract, the thing is that she was not a party to the contract. You can't say that SHE breached the contract because that was between you and the bride/groom. The only way this other shooter could be considered in breach is if you can claim that the verbal agreement for her to only shadow you was a contract, and she was a party to that contract. THEN she'd be in breach.

If you didn't get the shots and the bride and groom are not happy, they might claim that YOU were in breach. You were the photographer and it was your responsibility to get the shots. The conditions were under your control. Yes, you tried and she ignored you, but it could be argued that you should have been more forceful.

Of course, then you could counter that they broke the "sole photographer" clause of the contract when they brought in the second shooter who then is trying to claim credit for the wedding.

What it all boils down to is *talk to a lawyer.* I'd do it sooner rather than later, at least to see if there is enough to get the attorney to send a cease and desist letter to get her to take the photos down.


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## ShaneF (Jul 14, 2014)

I don't have any advice but you have my support in dealing with the cousinzilla.  Good luck..


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## jake337 (Jul 14, 2014)

Honestly, I'm wondering why they even hired you if they have a cousin with 20k in gear who is already a professional.  Maybe they hired you "just in case" their cousin couldn't make it.


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## roz (Jul 14, 2014)

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. I spent hours trying to find some form a rights I could read up on, in regards to her contract and this chicks assumption that I'm "verbally abusing her". Last time I checked, asking someone to remove their images was not harassment. I was just so freakin shocked that she went this route. Now the bride and groom are mad at us both and told me that I need to deal with it and figure it out with this cousin of hers. How about no. SO...I'm going to finish editing their wedding. Package it up real nice. Ship it out and get back to boudoirs, which is what I fell in love with in the first place. Weddings blow. Lesson learned. If you're not in a corset and partial drunk from nerves, I. do. not. like. you. 
I don't even care how pervy that sounds.


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## roz (Jul 14, 2014)

My thoughts exactly Jake. About crapped my pants when she showed up.


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## roz (Jul 14, 2014)

Thank you Limr for the solid advice, I really appreciate the help.


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## gsgary (Jul 15, 2014)

Give them the photos, take your money and walk away


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## sscarmack (Jul 15, 2014)

You live, you learn. I don't allow anyone to shadow me unless I specifically hired them.

I agree with the, get paid, give them the photos, run.


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## astroNikon (Jul 15, 2014)

wow, cousinzilla is it!

I'd say just Take the money and run ... unless you want to do something about it then hire a lawyer .. the 2nd shooter seems very ultimatum like ...


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## Braineack (Jul 15, 2014)

what are you going to sue for?

how can someone else breach a contract between you and another party?

the cousin was given permission to shoot for free, you were hired to shoot by the same person.  provide them the pictures they hired you for and move on.

she has no obligation to remove her own photos.
you have a legal obligation to fulfill your contract.


so I hope the bride and groom enjoys a bunch of pictures of their cosuin getting in the way...


also, what sort of protection does that claused give you in your contract?  let's say the cousin is "professional".  Now what?  what can you sue them for? breach of contract? So you want them to like not pay you something? or you just don't hand over pictures where they counter-sue you for breach of contract?


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## robbins.photo (Jul 15, 2014)

Unfortunately you kind of shot yourself in the foot the moment you agreed to let cousinzilla "shadow" you.  Unless you can prove that she sold photographs to the wedding couple I doubt your contract will be worth much as a result, and frankly the time and money it would take to try and enforce the clause of you being the only "professional shooter" present would really be worth it.  Since your contract is with the couple, and not with the cousin, the only portion I have a feeling you could have a case on would be if the couple actually paid the cousin for photographs - and, well, good luck proving that.

So do the best you can with the shots you have, give the couple the best wedding pictures you can under the circumstances and forget about the rest.  If at some stage you do decide you'd like to do another wedding, if anyone asks can "X" come along and shadow you, politely tell them no, they cannot.   Then let the couple know that you've found such shadowing to be very disruptive in the past and you'll hope they will make it clear to "X" that they should not be standing in front of you while your shooting, or behind you shooting over your shoulder.  Let the couple know your setting this expectation now so you can avoid any unpleasantness at the actual event, but should "X" violate these rules you will be forced to explain to X that they need to cease and desist and you don't want that to become an issue or turn into a scene that might put a damper on their big day.


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## AmberAtLoveAndInk (Jul 15, 2014)

I just had a similar issue over the weekend, except it wasn't a cousin with 20k in gear, it was a much older uncle with a 10D. Granted, he did not get  in the way of the aisle, but he did make group shots a hell of a lot harder for me. I would get everyone together, have them ready and he would interject and have them move "a tad this way." Umm. NO. I need them "a tad" THAT way. I couldn't get too bitchy because he was very close to the bride, so instead I pulled the bride aside mid way through our formals and said as politely as I could, "I don't mean to make your wedding pictures any more stressful than it is, but the quality of your photos depend greatly upon the participation of the bridal party and the common courtesy of your GUESTS to let me do what I have been hired to do. At the end of the day I want to give you the best possible photos I can, I'm sure you feel the same." 
After that the uncle backed off a bit but was still a royal nuisance. As for your situation, I suggest finishing them up and getting them delivered, if they have anything to say simply inform them that you tried numerous times to get the cousin to cooperate with you and when she didn't, if a shot was missed because of her, it was no longer in your control and you are not responsible for means of which you cannot control.


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## Designer (Jul 15, 2014)

This thread should be linked to anyone who says they want to become a wedding photographer.


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## gsgary (Jul 15, 2014)

And just out of Best Buy college of photography


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## astroNikon (Jul 15, 2014)

Designer said:


> This thread should be linked to anyone who says they want to become a wedding photographer.


So if you want to be a wedding photog you should 2nd shoot (with no contract) and show up with better/more equipment than the primary shooter ?


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 15, 2014)

I know of a photographer who said he started putting in his contracts that if he had to wait for guests to get out of the way with their cameras/phones during formals/posed shots, he would bill for the time. Seemed to put a stop to a lot of this type thing because the B&G don't want to get billed extra for time he's standing there waiting to do his job. 

Not that handling it the same way will work for everyone, or that it would work for people popping up out of their seats and getting in the way during the ceremony, but it seems like this is more and more a problem and needs to be made clear from the beginning what the photographer needs to be able to do. 

Maybe it needs to be considered in the contract, to cover situations when the photographer may not be able to provide adequate photos of the ceremony due to guests interfering by taking pictures. In this case if the cousin wasn't paid and the B&G allowed the cousin to take photos I don't know if there's anything that can be done now - I agree with others that it might be necessary to provide photos according to the contract and be done with it.


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## Braineack (Jul 15, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> So if you want to be a wedding photog you should 2nd shoot (with no contract) and show up with better/more equipment than the primary shooter ?



I have a local that has inquired about me second shooting with him; I'll have MUCH better equip than him...


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## roz (Jul 15, 2014)

You guys are all right. My pride just hurts a bit. I intend to deliver pictures and do the best I can with what I have. I didn't trust my gut, when asked to shoot her wedding. I knew I wasn't ready for that big of a step in the photography world. But when the cousin posted all of those pictures from her business facebook page and tagged everyone in them, I was so friggin butt hurt. I live in a small valley and every time someone likes one of her images, in theory is a client I've lost for possible referral. Not to mention, her watermark was so very similar to mine, I worried people would think assume her photos were mine and not notice the watermark difference. I know I'm being an ass, I know I'm irritated for no reason, I know that if I was confident in my work I would be assured that my images would out shine hers. I feel like a dick, but man...common curtousy, some manners and a little logic (you'd think) would have come into play when the bride and groom realized she used this "shadowing" as a stunt just to advertise her own business. What a jerk. I'm over it. Time to move on. Lesson learned...the hard way. I've got a lot of learning still to do. I fell in love with photography and the politics muddy up my passion something fierce. Must grow thicker skin.


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## sscarmack (Jul 15, 2014)

I'd second shoot for anyone, as long as I'm being paid of course.

Less worries, no stress of dealing with finding clients and dealing with them and the zillas that come along.


Sign me up


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## robbins.photo (Jul 15, 2014)

sscarmack said:


> I'd second shoot for anyone, as long as I'm being paid of course.
> 
> Less worries, no stress of dealing with finding clients and dealing with them and the zillas that come along.
> 
> ...



I dunno, I'm starting to see a heck of a business opportunity here myself.  Forget second shooting - I'll hire myself out as a wedding enforcer.  Cousin-zilla steps in front of your shot.. no problem, I'll lay a proper paparazzi beatdown on her.  Uncle Annoying making your life a living hell?  Well if they find him floating face down in the fountain out back, these things happen right?  I sort of like the Bruce Lee zen aspect of it all too - the art of shooting a wedding without shooting a wedding.

Ya.. hmm.. need to come up with some business cards here I think.. rotflmao


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## gsgary (Jul 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> I have a local that has inquired about me second shooting with him; I'll have MUCH better equip than him...



Equipment means **** all unless you can produce the product


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## Braineack (Jul 15, 2014)

your business cards are brass knuckles.


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## Braineack (Jul 15, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > I have a local that has inquired about me second shooting with him; I'll have MUCH better equip than him...
> ...




that wont be an issue either...  xD


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## TWright33 (Jul 15, 2014)

I would like to see images of this wedding with the cousin in the way.

And what equipment did she actually bring?

Not that I'm disagreeing with your statements, I am just a curious MF.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 15, 2014)

Braineack said:


> your business cards are brass knuckles.


I like that.  Refrigerator magnets too so they always have my number on hand.  Ya. Lol


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## astroNikon (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm sure many of us would be peeved (to say the least) at this situation too.  So it's not just you.

And probably us other weddings newbies wouldn't quite know what to do at that point either.   It's one of those live and learn things.  At least it sounded like the wedding went okay and you didn't have a bridezilla .. or Mother-In-Law-Zilla


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## TWright33 (Jul 15, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> I'm sure many of us would be peeved (to say the least) at this situation too.  So it's not just you.
> 
> And probably us other weddings newbies wouldn't quite know what to do at that point either.   It's one of those live and learn things.  At least it sounded like the wedding went okay and you didn't have a bridezilla .. or Mother-In-Law-Zilla



Everyone keeps talking about Zillas, but no one seems to care about the eminent danger of an unsuspected visit by Godzilla.


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## elizpage (Jul 15, 2014)

At least it wasn't people with cell phones... This happened to me at the last wedding I shot. 

Edit; Also one of the cousins had a T1i or something shooting on Auto.. but luckily got out of my way when I was shooting.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 15, 2014)

roz said:


> You guys are all right. My pride just hurts a bit. I intend to deliver pictures and do the best I can with what I have. I didn't trust my gut, when asked to shoot her wedding. I knew I wasn't ready for that big of a step in the photography world. But when the cousin posted all of those pictures from her business facebook page and tagged everyone in them, I was so friggin butt hurt. I live in a small valley and every time someone likes one of her images, in theory is a client I've lost for possible referral. Not to mention, her watermark was so very similar to mine, I worried people would think assume her photos were mine and not notice the watermark difference. I know I'm being an ass, I know I'm irritated for no reason, I know that if I was confident in my work I would be assured that my images would out shine hers. I feel like a dick, but man...common curtousy, some manners and a little logic (you'd think) would have come into play when the bride and groom realized she used this "shadowing" as a stunt just to advertise her own business. What a jerk. I'm over it. Time to move on. Lesson learned...the hard way. I've got a lot of learning still to do. I fell in love with photography and the politics muddy up my passion something fierce. Must grow thicker skin.



A lot of second shooters hand the memory cards over to the main photographer at the end of the day.
What should have happened here, is you allow the second shooter, but they sign a contract as well.
You take the cards, you process all shots to meet YOUR vision, and post them, and finish the sales transactions with the client.
THEN you give the raw images back to the second shooter, and let them do what they will, for their portfolio (but you don't even have to do that).


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## limr (Jul 15, 2014)

roz said:


> Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. I spent hours trying to find some form a rights I could read up on, in regards to her contract and this chicks assumption that I'm "verbally abusing her". Last time I checked, asking someone to remove their images was not harassment. I was just so freakin shocked that she went this route. Now the bride and groom are mad at us both and told me that I need to deal with it and figure it out with this cousin of hers. How about no. SO...I'm going to finish editing their wedding. Package it up real nice. Ship it out and get back to boudoirs, which is what I fell in love with in the first place. *Weddings blow. Lesson learned. If you're not in a corset and partial drunk from nerves, I. do. not. like. you.
> I don't even care how pervy that sounds*.



:lmao: This is funny. I like you. I think you should stick around.


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## robbins.photo (Jul 15, 2014)

limr said:


> roz said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. I spent hours trying to find some form a rights I could read up on, in regards to her contract and this chicks assumption that I'm "verbally abusing her". Last time I checked, asking someone to remove their images was not harassment. I was just so freakin shocked that she went this route. Now the bride and groom are mad at us both and told me that I need to deal with it and figure it out with this cousin of hers. How about no. SO...I'm going to finish editing their wedding. Package it up real nice. Ship it out and get back to boudoirs, which is what I fell in love with in the first place. *Weddings blow. Lesson learned. If you're not in a corset and partial drunk from nerves, I. do. not. like. you.
> ...




Yup.. no need to worry about all the other folks she's said that too that subsequently disappeared under very mysterious circumstances.  Total coincidence I'm sure.. lol


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## robbins.photo (Jul 15, 2014)

TWright33 said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure many of us would be peeved (to say the least) at this situation too. So it's not just you.
> ...



Not at all.  He's always very polite, calls ahead or RSVP's.


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## astroNikon (Jul 15, 2014)

limr said:


> roz said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. I spent hours trying to find some form a rights I could read up on, in regards to her contract and this chicks assumption that I'm "verbally abusing her". Last time I checked, asking someone to remove their images was not harassment. I was just so freakin shocked that she went this route. Now the bride and groom are mad at us both and told me that I need to deal with it and figure it out with this cousin of hers. How about no. SO...I'm going to finish editing their wedding. Package it up real nice. Ship it out and get back to boudoirs, which is what I fell in love with in the first place. *Weddings blow. Lesson learned. If you're not in a corset and partial drunk from nerves, I. do. not. like. you.
> ...


Yeah, he can post his boudoir shots for C&C.   Do people really have to drink to get up the nerves for that ??


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## pjaye (Jul 15, 2014)

astroNikon said:


> Do people really have to drink to get up the nerves for that ??



Yes.


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## weepete (Jul 15, 2014)

Chock one up to experience roz.


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## roz (Jul 16, 2014)

Hahaha! Yes, many Fireball shots are typically required. With that being said...a nervous, partially drunk, naked chick, is hilarious. Lots of laughs to be had and at the end of the day, great relaxed pictures. 
Here's one of my favorite sessions...


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## limr (Jul 16, 2014)

Lovely shots! Very sexy. Well, the boys - and some of the girls - will definitely want you to stick around now.


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## orljustin (Jul 17, 2014)

"Prior to the wedding, the bride had call me up to ask if her cousin could "shadow" me, as she was a new photographer and wanted to take a few candids as a gift to the bride and groom. I said sure."

This is just weird to me, since it sounds like you had the same experience as the cousin, and besides, wouldn't need the distraction.


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## weepete (Jul 17, 2014)

It doesn't matter now. Never let someone else with more expensive gear intimidate you just because they have more expensive gear. I've seen plenty of people with loads of kit set up a shot that won't work well with the light, not that I'm that good but just to set up a shot to eliminate basic errors. Other times you just need to pick your spot and not move, other times just get yourself in front. Sometimes you need to think on your feet and go for a different shot too.

Or if they are being a complete @sshole get in all of their shots till they get the message.  Start shooting wide and close up if they are really difficult.


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## studio460 (Jul 25, 2014)

roz said:


> Here's one of my favorite sessions...



Wow! Those are gorgeous! If you do ever decide to tackle more weddings, you could grow that into a very high-paying gig if you can produce images of that caliber, under the severe time constraints and pressures of a wedding. I just shot my first wedding a few months ago, and I knew going in I was going to have both, an Aunt Mary _and_ an Uncle Bob also shooting (actually, the bride's former teacher and her boyfriend). Thankfully, it wasn't nearly as bad as your experience. I was able to take control of every set-up, and the Mary/Bob team politely deferred to my instruction. Also, in my case, _I_ was the one that brought $20K worth of gear, and they each had only a single Canon 7D body, one with a 50mm f/1.8, the other with a 70-200mm f/2.8, and _zero_ strobe equipment.


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