# Next Steps???



## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

Hey Guys,

I know this question has been beaten to death in these forums, but I'll ask anyway.

I'm at a point where I think I can begin to charge for my work.  I've done a few shoots for free just to get the experience of going on location, whether outdoors or somebody's house and I have a few more scheduled in the coming weeks.  Let me provide some ideas on what I'd like to do as far as those services and you guys can tell me if anything is missing from this:

1.  I'd like to do photo shoots that last about an hour.  Throw in setup and breakdown plus getting to and from the location and it could come to 3 hours.
2.  I'd like to provide the client with 100 images.
3.  Of those 100 images, they could pick 5 that I will process and provide to them as jpegs and tiffs.  
4.  I would provide the rest as unprocessed full size jpegs.
5.  If they would like me to provide prints, I would and just past that charge on to them.

That's really it.  This is something I would do in my spare time, mostly on weekends, so I won't be quitting my day job.  I guess just for some extra money.

So now the question that has been asked probably 10,000 times.  What do I charge for this???  I'm located in Northeast NJ and my experience is obvious.

What I think I want to charge is $75 per hour and $50 for the processing for all 5 images (Any additional image they want is an extra $20 per image).  

Is this too low?  Is it about right?  I think it's low but given my experience, it sounds right.

Like I mentioned, I may be missing something huge in this whole thought process, but I hope you guys will let me know.

Also, I did once have an LLC for IT consulting that I did on the side so I do have some idea of the business side of things, but even still, I am probably missing something.

Thanks,
Danny


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## 2WheelPhoto (Mar 20, 2012)

Business plan, license, tax ID, insurance, accountant, etc is next steps?  Or you've done all that sillyness?


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

2WheelPhoto said:


> Business plan, license, tax ID, insurance, accountant, etc is next steps?  Or you've done all that sillyness?


I wouldn't call it silliness, but no, not yet.


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## Joey_Ricard (Mar 20, 2012)

Danny, if you are just looking to see if "the price is right", then there are many factors that we can't necessarily answer because they may be directly related to your location, demographics etc etc. Only you can do the research based on the local conditions and whether or not people will pay the amount you are asking for a package with x amount of images cd etc etc.


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## tirediron (Mar 20, 2012)

Assuming you're familiar with the tax and business-licensing laws in your region, get that set-up.  Draft up contracts and model releases and have them reviewed by a qualified attorney.  *GET.  INSURANCE.  *

Now, sit down determine your costs.  Factor in such things as transportation (Maintenance, insurance, fuel, depreciation), advertising, website, insurance, gear-upgrades and acquisition, cell-phone bills, computer & software upgrades, etc.  Figure out what your mark-up will be on prints (I like 40%; it's a nice, round number) and then slap that all into a business plan.

With respect to your deliverables, I would suggest that if someone pays for five images, than that is all they should get.  Do not give them more; if they want additional images, they can pay for you to process them.  Giving out a disc-full of images is a good way to ensure NO print sales IMO.  

As far as actual costs, that's really difficult to answer; $75/hr seems fine, BUT what are the typical rates in your area for comparable work?  If everyone else is charging $50/hr, you might not get much work.  

Have you looked into second-shooting for anyone in the area?  It might no be a paid job, but it could be invaluable experience....


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 20, 2012)

One thing I would do (besides what 2 wheel mentioned) is to pull up all of the businesses in your area and see what they are charging. That will give you a ballpark figure of what your area can handle. And then you need to look into how much it is costing you to do a photo shoot and editing, and proofing and meeting with your clients etc. Then you can really find out how much you need to charge to actually make money.


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## KmH (Mar 20, 2012)

High quality photography is a luxury item. Sell it like the luxury item it is, not as a commodity.

The term _commodity_ is used to describe a class of goods for which there is demand, but goods which are supplied without any qualitative differentiation. (The commodity mindset - My photos are just like everybody else's photos, and are nothing special.)

100 photos is a lot for a 1 hr session. People get overwhelmed with to many to choose from and tend to get frustrated and not choose any. (100 photos an hour is a shot every 90 seconds.)
My contract said I would provided 20 fully edited proofs for each hour of shooting. I always provided a few more, usually 25-30  - _*Under promise, over deliver*_.

There is no such thing as an unprocessed JPEG, and none of my retail clients ever saw an unedited, unretouched image.

 If you have had business experience then you know that any prints you provide cost quite a bit more than what the paper and ink cost.

So since you figure a 1 hour shoot will require 3 hours of your time, your base fee will be $225? If not, at $75 for a 1 hour shoot you are only earning $25 an hour for your time.
I doubt a separate editing fee will work very well.

Why provide a retail client a TIFF file? Most don't know how to handle a JPEG file. What happens when the customer you gave 3:2 aspect ratio JPEGs/TIFFs gets them printed at Walgreens as a 7:5 or a 5:4 aspect ratio print, and part of the original gets cut off?
You should be selling your print making expertise. Your knowledge of print types, print papers, print products, bit-depth, color spaces, color profiles, color models, aspect ratios, mounting methods, framing, etc.

The bottom line is you have just 2 things you can sell:  Your time, and your photographs.

I recommend any retail photography business, full or part time, strive for a minimum average sale of $1000.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 20, 2012)

Hey, Danny.

You'll hear a lot of _emphatic_ advice about the legal and business stuff.  I wouldn't say it's time for all that just yet.  This will all matter more if you see you'll be doing a substantial amount of work on a regular basis.  For the record, I don't employ an accountant and my municipality requires no business license.  As for a business plan, I think shooting a few jobs to see how it goes is good enough for right now.  And, if your state doesn't require you collect sales tax and you don't have employees, you won't need a tax ID number;  your social will do just fine for now.  Insurance is always a good idea in case someone trips over you case and gets hurt.

As for pricing, quoting a rate per hour might not be the way to go.  It's good to calculate your prices that way, but consider presenting it differently...  a cost per job/image might work better.  Most clients won't know the time required to produce their work.

I do not offer files, but realize it's very popular and hard to avoid.  I like your thinking about providing a few finished files, but wonder about turning over scores of files not completely ready for printing.

So for example, if you want to shoot family portraits, YOU decide the typical time needed for shooting and processing.  Add any expenses you expect to incur.  So if your travel and shoot takes 3 hours @ $75, and your processing takes 2 hours @ $50, add $25 or so for incidentals (CDs, envelopes, etc.), you can quote your family portraits start at $350 and includes a CD of five files ready for printing.

I hope this helps.

-Pete


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## CCericola (Mar 20, 2012)

You are definitely low for that area. Check out this cost analysis and it will help you. I suggest you set the prices based on your expenses and business plan (use the link to help also) then offer discounts to get into the market. That way, your clients won't be shocked when you charge you regular pricing. 

NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator


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## CCericola (Mar 20, 2012)

Christie Photo said:


> Hey, Danny.
> 
> You'll hear a lot of _emphatic_ advice about the legal and business stuff.  I wouldn't say it's time for all that just yet.  This will all matter more if you see you'll be doing a substantial amount of work on a regular basis.  For the record, I don't employ an accountant and my municipality requires no business license.  As for a business plan, I think shooting a few jobs to see how it goes is good enough for right now.  And, if your state doesn't require you collect sales tax and you don't have employees, you won't need a tax ID number;  your social will do just fine for now.  Insurance is always a good idea in case someone trips over you case and gets hurt.
> 
> ...



He is in NJ like me so yes, he does have to be registered, sales tax, etc... You cannot get business liability and equipment insurance without being registered. Your homeowners and any personal policies are null and void in NJ if you are charging for services.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 20, 2012)

CCericola said:


> You cannot get business liability and equipment insurance without being registered. Your homeowners and any personal policies are null and void in NJ if you are charging for services.



Yikes!  Tough place.  I suspect your governor is somehow related...  should I give him a call?

-Pete


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

CCericola said:


> You are definitely low for that area. Check out this cost analysis and it will help you. I suggest you set the prices based on your expenses and business plan (use the link to help also) then offer discounts to get into the market. That way, your clients won't be shocked when you charge you regular pricing.
> 
> NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator



Hi Christina,

I'm not just considering if it's low for this area.  I'm also taking into consideration my experience; probably moreso.  I want to be upfront with clients about that.  Of course, I would present a portfolio to show that I can do what they ask, but I would be upfront about my experience.  I really believe that honesty builds trust which would lead to referrals, etc... (that and great results).  Maybe this is naive, but I believe it.

Thanks for the response!

Danny


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

CCericola said:


> Christie Photo said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, Danny.
> ...



I would definitely acquire this insurance!


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

Christie Photo said:


> Hey, Danny.
> 
> You'll hear a lot of _emphatic_ advice about the legal and business stuff.  I wouldn't say it's time for all that just yet.  This will all matter more if you see you'll be doing a substantial amount of work on a regular basis.  For the record, I don't employ an accountant and my municipality requires no business license.  As for a business plan, I think shooting a few jobs to see how it goes is good enough for right now.  And, if your state doesn't require you collect sales tax and you don't have employees, you won't need a tax ID number;  your social will do just fine for now.  Insurance is always a good idea in case someone trips over you case and gets hurt.
> 
> ...



Hi Pete,

Thanks for the advice.  I really appreciate it.  I agree with you that to start off I don't need all the things that have been recommended.  Of course, once you have a full fledged business these are valid businesses practices, but for what I want to do right now starting out, I really don't think I need it. I definitely want to pay taxes on whatever money I make, keep track of all possible deductions, get insurance etc..., but my cost of doing business is minimal.  I don't have a studio, employees, etc...

I'm really going to research this before I start anything.

Danny


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses on this question.  Greatly appreciated!

Danny


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## Christie Photo (Mar 20, 2012)

dandaluzphotography said:


> I definitely want to pay taxes on whatever money I make, keep track of all possible deductions, get insurance etc...



Yeah... keep track of everything, keep your source documents (bills, invoices, receipts) and your income tax preparer will help you work out what you can additionally deduct...  maybe some travel, partial phone bill and the like.

The BIG snag that Christine pointed out is the insurance part.  Apparently you cannot buy liability insurance in Jersey if you're not a registered business.  I've never used it, but I've always had it.  Hmmm.

-Pete


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

I don't think the insurance thing is a big deal. You gotta have it so you gotta do whatever you have to do to get it. I registered an LLC once before and it wasn't terribly expensive. It was like 200 or so. Maybe less.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 20, 2012)

dandaluzphotography said:


> I registered an LLC once before and it wasn't terribly expensive.



Oh...  is that all it takes?  Does being an LLC = being a "registered business?"

-Pete


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## KmH (Mar 20, 2012)

dandaluzphotography said:


> I'm also taking into consideration my experience; probably moreso.  I want to be upfront with clients about that.  Of course, I would present a portfolio to show that I can do what they ask, but I would be upfront about my experience.  I really believe that honesty builds trust which would lead to referrals, etc... (that and great results).  Maybe this is naive, but I believe it.


The vast majority of your potential customers know zip, nada, nothing about photography.......beyond point the thing - and push that button thingy. They have no basis for evauating your experience. They will not judge your photographs against what they see in magazines and in other print media. They will judge your work against their homegrown snapshots. 

Where else can they get images made by *you*? In retail photography, your personality is a big part of what drives word of mouth referrals.

As far as I'm concerned you have already goofed by doing shoots for free. Those people you did free shoots for tell all their friends _that you shoot for free_. So few if any referrrals from those free shoots will be willing to pay you $125 ($75 + $50). Word of mouth (WOM) advertising like that you don't need.

Like Christina mentioned, and I have also recommended before, bill/price based on industry pricing, but introduce/promote/market yourself by offering a limited time portfolio building discount. The limited time aspect is a "call to action".
*"OMG Brittney! Dandaluz Photography is doing a portfolio building promo and you could save a bunch of money having them do the photos you were thinking about getting."
*
Remember those 20 (actually 25-30) fully edited proofs I mentioned earlier? I gave clients 2 choices if they wanted all of them:
1. They could have all 20 proofs as high quality 5x7 (minimal cropping) chromogenic prints (C-prints) on KODAK *PROFESSIONAL ENDURA* *Premier Paper, *mounting and framing extra. (Not inkjet prints I made using my $129 home/office inkjet printer.) 
2. They could have them all as low resolution (500x700 pixels) digital files on a *Verbatim UltraLife Gold Archival Grade DVD-R*, _scratch armored surface_ disc in a high quality protective jewel case. (The jewel case has a custom printed insert graphic -(The Martin Family Portraits - yada, yadya, yada).
Either choice cost the same - $799

*"You know what? Those extra (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) images I edited for you came out so good, I want you to have them too. So I'll include all of them too for the same price."* Under promise, over deliver.

If you don't have any retail sales experience you'll likely find it tough actually making any money.  One way many miss the boat is by not having any samples of the product s the sell that people can look at closely, hold, etc. Holding a framed 8x10 over the couch shows how small the couch and wide expanse of wall makes an 8x10 look, allowing you to up sell a 16x20 or a 24x30. (No wonder it's hard to make a disc of phpotos

Some other notes: You don't take pictures. You make images, or you make photographs - not photos, not pics, not snapshots).
*"Yes ma'am, my one hour image making session fee is $129, and the session fee includes a $50 print credit so you can choose what print product, or print products, you want the $50 credit to go towards."* 

When possible I avoided the words hundred and thousand. *"The disc with all 26 of the proof images is only seven ninety nine."
"The high resolution disc of all 26 of the images is only nineteen ninety nine."*


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

From what I remember, yes. I got a tax ID and everything!


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## Christie Photo (Mar 20, 2012)

KmH said:


> If you don't have any retail sales experience you'll likely find it tough actually making any money.  One way...



Very nice post, Keith.  All very good, tried-and-true advice.

Thanks for taking the time.

-Pete


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 20, 2012)

KmH said:


> dandaluzphotography said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also taking into consideration my experience; probably moreso.  I want to be upfront with clients about that.  Of course, I would present a portfolio to show that I can do what they ask, but I would be upfront about my experience.  I really believe that honesty builds trust which would lead to referrals, etc... (that and great results).  Maybe this is naive, but I believe it.
> ...


Awesome information, Keith. Thanks a lot.  One thing I disagree on is the part about me goofing by doing some shoots for free. I did those more for the experience of actually doing a shoot with strangers and not so much referrals for future business. It would be nice but wasn't really my main goal. Thanks again,Danny


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## 12sndsgood (Mar 20, 2012)

Allot of good info Keith. But this is what I always have the hardest time with.

"_As far as I'm concerned you have already goofed by doing shoots for free. Those people you did free shoots for tell all their friends that you shoot for free. So few if any referrrals from those free shoots will be willing to pay you $125 ($75 + $50). Word of mouth (WOM) advertising like that you don't need."


_For me it doesn't seem right to charge someone your using for practice or to build up your portfolio on.  My route on this has been using acquaintences and just going with hey. I'm letting doing this for free with you, but that stays between us and nobody is to know. Making them feel like they got something speacial and i did something really nice for them, and in return maybe that will work into friends of family down the line. Most of the people I have shot also don't have a few hundred dollars to drop on photos anyway so i'm not really seeing it as a lost sale. 

That's just how I have been going about it. And not saying it's the right way either.


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## Christie Photo (Mar 21, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> Allot of good info Keith. But this is what I always have the hardest time with...



I can't speak for Keith (and I won't try), but what I take from his advice is a caution about setting a precedent.  It's not that you're stuck with you prices forever...  it's OK to raise you prices from time to time.  Just be careful about "type casting" yourself as a budget photographer.

I've done "invitational sittings" (VERY few... 2 in 30 years, I think) when I want to develop a new technique.  All I gave in return was an 8x10 print.  I've NEVER tried "something new" on a client during a job.

-Pete


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## CCericola (Mar 21, 2012)

In NJ you don't have to be an LLC. You can be a sole proprietor (which I am). Each state is differant but it seems most states have the directions on what you need on the web. Just for an example: 

I have a Sole proprietorshiip. I also had to register a ficticious name because I use my maiden name for business. Then I got a separate EIN (Free online from the IRS). When I regstered for my sole proprietorship I also applied for a NJ state resale certificate (with my new EIN). 

I did not use my SSN as a sole proprietor because 1. My bank requires a separate EIN for any business (their policy, nothing illegal about that, I could have just as easily gone to another bank) 2. I use many venders for photography. printing. promotional products, etc... These Venders often need an EIN or resale cert# and I did not want to give out my social left and right.


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## dandaluzphotography (Mar 21, 2012)

CCericola said:


> In NJ you don't have to be an LLC. You can be a sole proprietor (which I am). Each state is differant but it seems most states have the directions on what you need on the web. Just for an example:
> 
> I have a Sole proprietorshiip. I also had to register a ficticious name because I use my maiden name for business. Then I got a separate EIN (Free online from the IRS). When I regstered for my sole proprietorship I also applied for a NJ state resale certificate (with my new EIN).
> 
> I did not use my SSN as a sole proprietor because 1. My bank requires a separate EIN for any business (their policy, nothing illegal about that, I could have just as easily gone to another bank) 2. I use many venders for photography. printing. promotional products, etc... These Venders often need an EIN or resale cert# and I did not want to give out my social left and right.



Thanks for this!


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## Balmiesgirl (Mar 27, 2012)

CCericola said:
			
		

> You are definitely low for that area. Check out this cost analysis and it will help you. I suggest you set the prices based on your expenses and business plan (use the link to help also) then offer discounts to get into the market. That way, your clients won't be shocked when you charge you regular pricing.
> 
> NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator



Great stuff.... Use the calculator .... Very few people would drop their prices


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## Hereindallas (Mar 30, 2012)

KMH, great advice and well stated


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