# Do you ever reject clients?



## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

Hello everyone, I'm new to this board. Thank you for your advice beforehand.

 I've been in the business for about a year and half- my prices are relatively low to reflect my experience. I've worked with a lot of different couples, but find this one type always gives me issues after the shoot.

 The most recent was a bride who didn't like her edited photos. The photos were edited in a way that reflects 95 percent of my portfolio. I'm now stuck going back through and changing them to her preference (which I am not fond of). 

  So, what I'm asking is if you meet a client and have a gut feeling about the relationship you're about to form isn't going to be real great- do you ever reject them?


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## gsgary (Jul 27, 2010)

Have you heard of the saying the customer is always right


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## mwcfarms (Jul 27, 2010)

Sorry Im with gsgary here. She is paying for a service and deserves the finished product to be to her liking. Pita yup but you want her to be happy. A happy client will tell a few people, a pissed off client will tell EVERYONE.


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## JG_Coleman (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, first off... the customer is _not_ always right...  oftentimes they are poorly informed folks who understand very little about the goods/services they are purchasing from you.

On the other hand, rejected customers based upon what will inevitably seem to them to be some arbitrary accessment of their character is bound to piss them off.... and pissed off customers (or pissed off rejects, in your case) are devastating to your reputation by word-of-mouth.

I would just take the hit this time, do the editing with a great, big, fake smile on your face...and then just take measures to help prevent this scenario from recurring during your first meeting with any further customers from now on.

For example... "Are you comfortable with your finished product reflecting the style you see in my portfolio?"  If they are not, it would at least be a bit more reasonable to deny them service.  Rather than just saying "Sorry, I just get the wrong vibe from you", you can instead say," Well, this portfolio reflects the style in which I shoot and what you can reasonably expect."  Then they are left to decide for themselves if it'll work for them or not... and they can be told down the road, "Listen, I _told_ you this is the style in which I shoot..."


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## Big Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

It's your right as a business person to work for (or not work for) whomever you want to.  If you get a bad feeling about a client, then turn them down.  Of course, you will probably want to be rather tactful about it....maybe say something like "I don't think I'm the right photographer for you, but here is a list of other photographers who might be better suited".



> my prices are relatively low to reflect my experience


Lesser experience should NOT be reflected in your prices...if you are good, then you should charge well for it.  
One of the biggest benefits of charging higher prices, is that you tend to get clients who hire you because they like what you do, rather than someone who is just looking for a deal.  And clients who like what you do, are less likely to ask for changes etc.


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## Mike_E (Jul 27, 2010)

Customer education is essential in any business.  

The more time you spend upfront describing what you will be doing and discussing what she/they expect before agreeing on a price the happier you will all be.


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## bigtwinky (Jul 27, 2010)

In your specific case, did you discuss the look and feel of your images prior to them signing?  While I agree that in principle, if the shots reflect your style, then thats what they should be.  But if the client isn't happy, then its up to you to make them happy.  You are new in business and I find that word of mouth is huge... so be careful.

Have I rejected clients?  A few (not like i have alot haha).  Either because I am already booked (easy out) or a few times because what they were asking for I was not comfortable doing as it was my thing.  I'm honest with my clients and if I feel their shoot will require something I can't do or am not comfortable doing, I'll tell them.  I'll also recommend people I know who can do it, so as not to leave them hanging...


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## JamesMason (Jul 27, 2010)

I tend to give customers exactly what they ask for. At the end of the day they are the ones paying. Bride wants a album full of pictures of the floor, bride gets album full of pictures of the floor.


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for the input thus far.

A few points:

- I agree the customer is usually right, in these cases they are/were  not. Before this bride, I had another who was upset she looked "hot" in  the pictures. The shoot took place on a 102 degree day, I asked we  reschedule and the bride insisted we shoot that day. What can I do besides my best and bring towels/water for the bride and groom? 
    In this particular case I see the bride's point as she likes what  she likes. Unfortunately in my opinion what she likes resembles editing  from a soft core porn shoot from the 80's (she should have hired someone  who edits in this manner). But this is a non-issue as I will give her  what she wants- it's just a pain in the ass because I spent 5 hours  editing yesterday. I wish she would have said something. 

- I talked to this bride about what she had in mind and she left it in  my hands so I did a mixture of editing techniques- she loved my  portfolio so I assumed she would love pictures that resembled my  portfolio. She let me know this morning, she really hates those editing  techniques. (again- would have been nice to know. I'm a photographer,  not a mind reader)

- My prices are in a budget category. 500 dollars for four hours of  wedding coverage is on the lower end, but I don't feel comfortable  charging more yet. I've only shot six weddings on my own and am just  starting to get comfortable. In a few months I will consider raising  prices, until then I don't think it's right for me to charge what  someone who has hundreds of events under their belt is paid. 

  Basically, the bride in this case isn't the issue as I have her  handled and will make her happy. I wanted to know if anyone rejects  clients based on vibe- all three brides I've had an issue with I have  gotten a vibe from. Luckily I was only booked for engagement sessions  with them and have never had a problem with a wedding. Obviously to decline working with someone one must be tactful 

  Again, thank you for the input!


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

erose86 said:


> aw2633 said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately in my opinion what she likes resembles editing  from a soft core porn shoot from the 80's
> ...



  I'm actually thinking more 90's. When I was in high school we went on a trip somewhere and it was on television and left quite an impression on me. The focus was very soft and there was a lot of soft light. I can't edit in that fashion because all I can think about is a plumber going to different houses of women and all the women wanting to hook up with him.


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## mwcfarms (Jul 27, 2010)

Well you explained much more in an earlier post. If this client didnt tell you she didnt care for your style beforehand her bad. Should you edit them for her again, probably lol since like I said a pissed off client will try to ruin your reputation. Next time you have a bad vibe you can throw out all of these questions that come up and if all else fails say your booked.  Otherwise I would love to see some of these shots.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2010)

Well.. its only fair if we see some of these photos.


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

lol.. I'm not posting any photos or information here for fear my client will see what I have written. I'm keeping things vague (username, location, etc..) so I can't get caught. Some of the pictures I took yesterday were very saucy- there are tounge in a few photos. When i said something to the couple about keeping things a little more toned down the groom said, "Wow! I can't wait to see these- these are gonna be HOT!"

  I left out a lot of details because I don't like to waste peoples time with long explanations  I guess some of the information is necessary.


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

oops double post


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## Millie.T.Cook (Jul 27, 2010)

Generally speaking, you'll get experienced and this won't happen as you do get that experience.

When I was getting started I took on pretty much every challenge and hated a lot of things I had to do. Now that I am focused on it as more of a hobby I can match myself with customers really well because I know what to ask.

In fact the only customer I had to turn down, after starting a project, was an email fax company that wanted me to find a graphical way of promoting their virtual service. I initially pitched the idea of some various images showing happy people using the service, and unhappy/frustrated people doing things the old-fashioned way. While that seemed fine the execution flopped and none of the pictures were anything I wanted to sell so I apologized for the time wasted and gave them some good leads on other solutions.

I actually got a referral back from the fellow they went with, so it was a zero sum loss, and has potential for more referrals too!

Always keep the customer happy, and this is usually just a matter of good communications!


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 27, 2010)

If it is a wedding, didnt you have a meeting with them prior to the wedding to show your portfolio?  By then you have a feeling what they like and dont like.


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

Schwettylens said:


> If it is a wedding, didnt you have a meeting with them prior to the wedding to show your portfolio?  By then you have a feeling what they like and dont like.



This was an engagement session and yes, she saw my portfolio and said she loved it. Her email this morning caught me off guard since her images are on par with my portfolio.


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## KmH (Jul 27, 2010)

Your contract should have language that covers this kind of situation, essentially saying: the client has seen your portoflio, is familiar with your editing style, and that image selection and editing are at at your sole discretion.

It is essential to qualify clients, however, once the contract is signed you are committed.

As Mike said, your pricing is a very effective way of qualifying your clients.

When your pricing is low, the client does not value your work nor your time, because apparently you don't either.


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## IlSan (Jul 27, 2010)

First off - fully agree with the pricing.
As long as the price resembles the "budget" category, then that is exactly what the clients are looking for that come to you. They want a relatively cheap photographer who will do a few photos for them in the style that they like.

Think about this - if you charged, I dunno, 2000 for a wedding people would take a lot more time studying your work as they are forking out a lot more money - and we all know, when it gets to money people tend to pay attention.

Yes, putting all this into a contract beforehand would help greatly, and you can then always refer back to the contract in case of disputes.

What I generally do is, I meet the potential client and have a coffee / tea. During this initial meeting I will bring some of my material along (specific to what the customer is looking for) and show them what style I shoot / edit. If they like what they see there, excellent - we go forward. If they do not like it, I either ask them to pass some samples along (only if I really want to work with them - that is a vibe thing, surely...) or refer them to a colleague. In my experience, never leave them hanging...always have a back up plan as this shows the customer that you are customer service oriented.

However, in this particular case - yeah, just gotta grind your teeth, smile and re-edit the way she wants...


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

IlSan said:


> First off - fully agree with the pricing.
> As long as the price resembles the "budget" category, then that is exactly what the clients are looking for that come to you. They want a relatively cheap photographer who will do a few photos for them in the style that they like.
> 
> Think about this - if you charged, I dunno, 2000 for a wedding people would take a lot more time studying your work as they are forking out a lot more money - and we all know, when it gets to money people tend to pay attention.
> ...





 I understand what you mean by pricing- and you're right about paying attention to the work. I'm uncomfortable charging 2k until I have a little more experience. I shot a wedding last weekend and dealt with my first rogue family member: An over zealous aunt who felt her Nikon L22 point and shoot meant she was the lead photographer. First time having to assert myself. 


   Once I shoot a few more weddings I will raise my prices and get out of the "budget category"- until then I will my grit my teeth


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## aw2633 (Jul 27, 2010)

KmH said:


> When your pricing is low, the client does not value your work nor your time, because apparently you don't either.



  In my experience, you build things from the ground up. I just got finished laying a solid foundation. But hey, if you have the ability to start at higher levels good for you. I like having something to look forward to


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## Heck (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't make money with my camera but in my business I have banned, thrown out and sometimes called the cops on customers. I often lie to some just to get rid of them. I find that having a successful business is not getting all the customers but getting and keeping the right customers.


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## KmH (Jul 28, 2010)

aw2633 said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > When your pricing is low, the client does not value your work nor your time, because apparently you don't either.
> ...


Have you ever heard of discounts?

It is *WAY* easier to lower prices than to raise them.


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## aw2633 (Jul 28, 2010)

KmH said:


> aw2633 said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...



  I recently raised my prices and haven't encountered any issues. As you gain experience and become better people are willing to pay more. Would you hire a brand new construction company with minimal experience for the same price you could hire a company with lots of experience and an established reputation?

 The photographer I hired for my own wedding charged 1500 for six hours of coverage- today people pay her 3k for the same coverage. People are paying it because she has gotten better. My wedding pictures were good, but she lacked experience handling people and different situations. Judging by her reviews, she found her stride. Wedding photography isn't just about good pictures, you have to be able to work with people effectively and the only way you learn is by doing it. 

  So lets agree to disagree. Your business model works for you, mine works for me.


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## magkelly (Jul 29, 2010)

Not as a photographer but I've worked practically all my life in an industry where difficult and demanding people are par for the course. I'm all for accommodating them if I can reasonably but there's always that one person who has to be a total PITA no matter what and there's little you can do about it except smile, do whatever it is they want you to do if possible, and get them done and out the door as fast as you can. 

I'm not saying I always do because some people are just plain nuts when it comes to what they want and how much they want to pay for it, and if they are THAT bad, I'm just going to show them the door regardless, but sometimes if you can stand to do it it's just more practical and less time consuming to let them just have their way than it is to stand there arguing with them over it. 

Also, you never know sometimes even if it does make you grit your teeth working with them it does turn out to be a good thing. I've more than once had some very difficult people send other not so difficult people my way just because I was willing to be polite and to try to accommodate them and I've also had people come and seek me out because they heard I was willing to actually deal with so and so and could apparently do it with a bit of grace and a real smile. 

Difficult people are just something you have to deal with whenever you do any kind of business. That doesn't mean you have to seek them out, but it's pretty much inevitable that no matter what type of work you do you're going to run into a "Mr/Ms Impossible" from time to time. 

It does seem like weddings bring out the worst in some people though. I've seen perfectly lovely people turn into complete monsters when it comes to their wedding and anything related to it. It's a crazy industry for everyone involved. If you're not extremely flexible and capable of being cool as ice 99% of the time it's a very hard industry to work in.  If you don't have a really strong backbone, you're in real trouble.


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## ConcretePicture (Jul 29, 2010)

It is OK to say NO.  If you think that your shoot will not go well, walk away while still on good terms.  If you agree to the job, do it and do it well - even if it takes 10x longer and you lose money/time on  it.  I have learned the hard way that the "gut feeling" is worth listening too.  That gut is usually right, especially when it comes to food.
At least this experience should increase your future pay, assuming your rates are directly proportional to your experience.


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## JodieO (Jul 29, 2010)

Big Mike said:


> Lesser experience should NOT be reflected in your prices...



EXACTLY!  People who charge little are dragging the industry down.

Take the emotions out of it.

Pricing is black and white.  It's simple business management 101.  You price for your time and what it takes to turn a decent profit that will sustain your business and keep it afloat.  That has nothing to do with your experience.  You are a BUSINESS OWNER, and business owners need to act like business owners.

Nothing like all the people that charge $250 and give away all the digital negatives after they have spent hours editing them.  Can you say working for $3/hour (after you take expenses, etc. out)?  NO THANKS.  You can work at starbucks for much more.  You price as a BUSINESS OWNER, not a minimum wage employee and definitely not less than minimum wage, wth?  Doesn't matter if you are new or not.  It's about business management.

$2,000 is nothing for a wedding when  you really break down expenses, time, etc.

My average client sales are $2,000-$3,000 just for 2-hour child or baby portrait sessions, and I'm not rolling in extra money.  $2,000 to spend hours at a wedding and hours editing, and hours with administration, phone calls, emails, etc. is really not much when you really look at it.


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## IlSan (Jul 29, 2010)

> Quote: Originally Posted by *IlSan*
> 
> 
> _First off - fully agree with the pricing.
> ...


 
Well, of course you need to build up a portfolio, to show to potential clients what you are able to do...but (yes, there is always a but) once you place yourself in the budget category, it is extremly hard to get out of it. Sure, it does happen to a few, but most people I have met, that started there, ended there, pretty much.
And - experience is one thing.
As an example - the first ever fashion shoot I did back in London I had hardly any idea about the genre. I had shot a few lions, elephants and the odd crocodile, and so on - had my fair share of landscape photography, but no clue what to do about studio lighting, posing...but, I dod not offer them any discount. Instead, I teamed up with a colleague, who had a loooot more experience than me, made a deal that he'd get 70%, me 30%, and watched him work.
Today, a studio session would cost a client around USD 4000, and I'm nicely booked  And trust me, I still have a ton to learn.
But the moment you sell short, may it be lack of experience, uncertainty, etc...it get's hard to get back up there, were you can make a living on photography.
Just my own experience here...

Well, people like the aunt, you will encounter them where-ever you go. I generally smile at them, think my part (which is seldomly good) and only really say something if they are getting in my way


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## smokinphoto (Aug 4, 2010)

Just like JD said earlier, the customer is _not_ always right... oftentimes they are poorly informed folks who understand very little about the goods/services they are purchasing from you. I would just try to end it on a good note and come up with a solution that is mutually agreed upon by both parties.


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