# Frustration with 3 light setup.



## jwbryson1 (Feb 4, 2012)

I'm frustrated already with trying to do 3 light portraits.  Perhaps it's my limited room to work but I can't get the lighting right.  I try to force light on the backdrop to blow it out (it's grey) and I get overexposed models.  I try to fix it in LR and I get wrinkles.    :banghead:

I have 3 speedlights triggered with radio units.  Maybe I need a constant source of light.

It sucks to suck and that sucks.  :violin:

Sigh.  Do all NewB strobists get this frustrated this fast?

Done.  Thanks for reading.

Going to get a beer....:cheers:


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## Mach0 (Feb 4, 2012)

Trying to do too many lights at once is frustrating. What's the power setting at the flash and how close are they to the back ground? Is it a muslin? If you can use a steamer, clamps, and make the model stand a little away, the dof will reduce the appearance of the wrinkles and you don't have to worry about light bouncing back to the model.


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 4, 2012)

I have said the same thing for over a year and now in year two I am still not at 4 lights. I like torture I suppose. I read and I read and I read, and I can do it with three. You can do it with three too and you can learn to be creative with the lights. What are you using for modifiers?


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## gsgary (Feb 4, 2012)

Are any of you using a flash meter ? because if you are it should not be a problem


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 4, 2012)

I do... but with a three light set-up the challenge can def be the BG, or depending on light placement, shadows against it. I think the OP can do it with 3 lights with some better understanding of lighting.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 4, 2012)

I'm reading Neil  van Niekirk's book on OCF but I'm still learning (obviously).  I'm bouncing 2 speedlights off reflective umbrellas and the third speedlight I have on the floor behind my kid trying to blow out the grey backdrop.  Not as easy as it seems.


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 4, 2012)

Not with grey, but with a BG that needs to be even, neverthe less, IMHO for this shor to work....here there is a light at the BG, altough with a 1x6 modifier and 2 lights modified by a shoot through umbrella...the two lights are postioned to share the work of subject and BG...although these are not speedlights, the idea should be the same....Are you using a meter? Is this the *look* you want, or do you want something with more shadows and sculpting?


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## Dominantly (Feb 4, 2012)

What about picking a roll of white paper up and trying to get all high key on that.


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 4, 2012)

Dominantly said:


> What about picking a roll of white paper up and trying to get all high key on that.



Is that your response to the OP???


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## gsgary (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't shoot with a white background, but i set up a studio night for our club because i'm the only one who shoots in a studio. This is with 3 lights, 2 on background 1 main light and a reflector and this shot is straight out of camera


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

Dominantly said:


> What about picking a roll of white paper up and trying to get all high key on that.



This actually makes a lot of sense to me.  I think I'm confined to working in too limited a space and with insufficient lighting.  Makes it hard to get it right.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> Not with grey, but with a BG that needs to be even, neverthe less, IMHO for this shor to work....here there is a light at the BG, altough with a 1x6 modifier and 2 lights modified by a shoot through umbrella...the two lights are postioned to share the work of subject and BG...although these are not speedlights, the idea should be the same....Are you using a meter? Is this the *look* you want, or do you want something with more shadows and sculpting?



More with shadows and sculpting but at this point I'd take anything.


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## kundalini (Feb 5, 2012)

gsgary said:


> ...... This is with 3 lights, 2 on background 1 main light and a reflector......


That was my way of thinking also.  Light the background evenly on either side.  This will give you enough light and remove shadows/wrinkles on the background.  Use your third light as the Key and built-in flash and/or reflector for Fill.  You'll want the background lights to be ~1 1/2 stops brighter than the Key to have it white.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 5, 2012)

I started with 3 lights but I never had more than one behind the subject. I don't think there is a need for it with real studio strobes (of sufficient power that is,) especially if doing head and shoulders as in the examples shown. One thing that is very important however, is to learn how to be satisfied with the results you can get with such a set-up so long as it doesn't interfere with the quality of the image.

For example, in gsgary shot, the background is nicely white but there is a definite lack of light on the front of the subject. By moving one the strobes off the background, you could have have had a nicely lit subject but your background may not have been perfectly white. Which is more important? Background or subject? The subject is imo.

The way I used to do head and shoulders type shots is very simple. A bare bulb strobe right behind the subject head which lights the background and also plays as a "hair light." You need to be careful about the positioning of your subject in this case because the strobe can show.

Another version of this is to put the strobe just over the highest part of the frame. Works better as a hair light but not as good as a background light as it may not be as even.

The choice of the background can also help quite a bit. Don't use white or if you do, don't worry if it is not quite white. I found it easier to use either a black background and not lighting it at all or, if black is too much, whatever color but still not light it. The lighter your background color, the lighter it will be in your shot but you can use the back strobe only as a hair light and get better results this way.

I never worked with flashes in the studio but just thinking of the size of the head I imagine it's going to make a fairly big difference in the results.

Hope this helps.


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## Bossy (Feb 5, 2012)

You have to light both seperately, your backdrop (usually takes 2 lights to be even) then your model. I usually use 4, 2 for the backdrop, 1 main and 1 fill.


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## tirediron (Feb 5, 2012)

We could all speculate endlessly on what the issues are and what you need to change... how about posting a diagram of your lighting/shooting set-up and a couple of the images with detailed info on what you see as the issues?


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## tirediron (Feb 5, 2012)

Bossy said:


> You have to light both seperately, your backdrop (usually takes 2 lights to be even) then your model. I usually use 4, 2 for the backdrop, 1 main and 1 fill.


No, you don't.  You can light them separately, but you do not HAVE to.


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 5, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Bossy said:
> 
> 
> > You have to light both seperately, your backdrop (usually takes 2 lights to be even) then your model. I usually use 4, 2 for the backdrop, 1 main and 1 fill.
> ...



:thumbup:

Absolutely agree.

To Bossy: store your fourth light and work with only 3 until you can get a decent picture. Then, and only then, should you bring back out #4.

Then again, if you are doing the strobist thing, I'll shut up because I have no idea how to do that. I also happen to think that it is a waste of time mlearning the strobist ways. Nobody in their right mind in a real studio will do the strobist thing.


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## tirediron (Feb 5, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> To Bossy: store your fourth light and work with only 3 until you can get a decent picture. Then, and only then, should you bring back out #4.



Actually, I'll take that one further.  Store three of your four lights and spend some time practicing with only ONE [Think:  Dean Collins]



c.cloudwalker said:


> Then again, if you are doing the strobist thing, I'll shut up because I have no idea how to do that. I also happen to think that it is a waste of time mlearning the strobist ways. Nobody in their right mind in a real studio will do the strobist thing.


I'm going to strongly disagree with you here (to a point).  If all you ever shoot is in a studio, with full studio lighting, perhaps.  But today, very few photographers shoot that way.  I think some of the tips, tricks, and techniques that can be learned from strobist type lighting are invaluable, especially for the location shooter who suddenly realizes that his 400w/s strobe has packed it in and all he's left with is a 'Bag o' Speedlights'!


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## Bossy (Feb 5, 2012)

I get decent photos with 4, and I don't mind using the extra lights  Thanks though 

And we can agree to disagree about the lighting the backdrop seperately.


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## Rephargotohp (Feb 5, 2012)

Why are you trying to Blowout gray? It's hard enough to get white high key white and not have Blow back spill on your subject and now you're trying to take gray there which will take another 2 stops at least of power???

And then why are you trying to do high key - which takes a lot of experience- just starting out?

Take it in steps,try a 1 light setup and get your subject looking good with one light, if you can't get that how you want, the rest won't come


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 5, 2012)

tirediron said:


> c.cloudwalker said:
> 
> 
> > To Bossy: store your fourth light and work with only 3 until you can get a decent picture. Then, and only then, should you bring back out #4.
> ...



And I'm going to strongly disagree with you 

There has always been plenty of amateur photogs doing it the half-ass way just for fun. And if that is what the OP wants, fine. I, however, will assume that the OP wants to learn the best way to do things, unless stated otherwise. Even with limited gear. And there are ways. And that's what I will try and teach rather than re-enforce the idea that one can do it with the Strobist way.

Now, of course, you can get some decent results that way but you will find yourself severly limited in no time. And there are strobes available that are no more expensive than some hot-shoe flash units. So why learn a half ass way instead of learning the right way from the start?


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## gsgary (Feb 5, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> I started with 3 lights but I never had more than one behind the subject. I don't think there is a need for it with real studio strobes (of sufficient power that is,) especially if doing head and shoulders as in the examples shown. One thing that is very important however, is to learn how to be satisfied with the results you can get with such a set-up so long as it doesn't interfere with the quality of the image.
> 
> For example, in gsgary shot, the background is nicely white but there is a definite lack of light on the front of the subject. By moving one the strobes off the background, you could have have had a nicely lit subject but your background may not have been perfectly white. Which is more important? Background or subject? The subject is imo.
> 
> ...



Yes on this shot the sitter is under exposed, it was towards the end and someone asked if we could shot a white background so i lit the background gave them a reading and let them light the subject  i think it was a shoot through brolly because i was packing all my gear away


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## c.cloudwalker (Feb 5, 2012)

gsgary said:


> Yes on this shot the sitter is under exposed, it was towards the end and someone asked if we could shot a white background so i lit the background gave them a reading and let them light the subject  i think it was a shoot through brolly because i was packing all my gear away



  I don't think you needed to explain yourself here. Those of us who know you know this is not representative of your work.


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## gsgary (Feb 5, 2012)

c.cloudwalker said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > Yes on this shot the sitter is under exposed, it was towards the end and someone asked if we could shot a white background so i lit the background gave them a reading and let them light the subject  i think it was a shoot through brolly because i was packing all my gear away
> ...



Cheers here a link to some of the shots they got, i think i will be setting it up once a month got some good feed back only problem i only took about 10 shots after they set the lights so i could give them an idea where they went wrong
News


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## kundalini (Feb 5, 2012)

Ummmmmm, just thinking outside of the box (pun intended), if you're shooting head & shoulder shots, you can actually use your modifier as the white background. These were shot today for this excersize......... and I actually ironed the shirt!


Main metered at f/11 with 24x36" softbox and positioned at 45°x45° from the camera right. Fill at f/4 behind the camera and ~10" to the right, bare bulb in 7" reflector. Background was a 47" Octabox metered at f/2.2, ~42" behind subject. Lighting was PCB White Lightnings.











Thanks for giving me something to shoot today.



Hmmm, upon reviewing the posted photos, the whites of the originals don't look nearly as bad as they do here.


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## gsgary (Feb 5, 2012)

kundalini said:


> Ummmmmm, just thinking outside of the box (pun intended), if you're shooting head & shoulder shots, you can actually use your modifier as the white background. These were shot today for this excersize......... and I actually ironed the shirt!
> 
> 
> Main metered at f/11 with 24x36" softbox and positioned at 45°x45° from the camera right. Fill at f/4 behind the camera and ~10" to the right, bare bulb in 7" reflector. Background was a 47" Octabox metered at f/2.2, ~42" behind subject. Lighting was PCB White Lightnings.
> ...




You look like a real Dandy in those shots


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

kundalini said:


> Ummmmmm, just thinking outside of the box (pun intended), if you're shooting head & shoulder shots, you can actually use your modifier as the white background. These were shot today for this excersize......... and I actually ironed the shirt!
> 
> 
> Main metered at f/11 with 24x36" softbox and positioned at 45°x45° from the camera right. Fill at f/4 behind the camera and ~10" to the right, bare bulb in 7" reflector. Background was a 47" Octabox metered at f/2.2, ~42" behind subject. Lighting was PCB White Lightnings.
> ...



Those are some great images! Really like them.  Just what I'd like to accomplish.  I think I'll move to our unfinished basement and try my luck down there.  Upstairs there is just no room for a studio.


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## Alpha (Feb 5, 2012)

omg just Google three point lighting and lighting ratios. Why is there a multi-page thread about this?


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 5, 2012)

Just to give people like you something to whine about.


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## Alpha (Feb 5, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> Just to give people like you something to whine about.



I am not criticizing you for asking the question. I am criticizing everyone else for not providing what should be a totally automatic answer.


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## Bossy (Feb 5, 2012)

So. Whats the automatic answer? Google it?


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## kundalini (Feb 5, 2012)

Alpha said:


> .... I am criticizing everyone else for not providing what should be a totally automatic answer.


Please enlighten us Obi-Wan Kenobi.


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## Alpha (Feb 5, 2012)

The simple answer is three point lighting and lighting ratios. So either you should explain them sufficiently, or point the OP to something online or in a book about three point lighting and ratios that does. I appreciate that people are trying to be helpful but I am astonished that nobody gave an answer which fundamentally addressed the root of the problem. This is not rocket science. I don't mean this as an attack on anyone in particular, but let's be specific. Here were the answers given:
1. Something about power settings or distance from background, and/or DOF
2. You can do it with three too and you can learn to be creative with the lights
3. Use a flash meter
4. Shadows
5. Background needs to be even
6. Try white paper
7. Here's an example of me doing the thing you can't figure out how to do
8. Light more evenly
9. Who needs three lights?
10. I use four to do what you're trying to do with three
11. Post a diagram
12. Strobist is a waste of time
13. Why are you trying to shoot what you're trying to shoot? 
14. Use a modifier as a background


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't see that you provided any compelling insight there, Alpha. And I do think that this thread is a pictorial discussion. Don't be such a Troll.


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## Alpha (Feb 6, 2012)

GeorgieGirl said:


> I don't see that you provided any compelling insight there, Alpha. And I do think that this thread is a pictorial discussion. Don't be such a Troll.



Then you can kindly explain how any of the responses I quoted address the fact that the OP seems to not understand lighting ratios or have read up much on three point lighting.


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 6, 2012)

Alpha said:
			
		

> Then you can kindly explain how any of the responses I quoted address the fact that the OP seems to not understand lighting ratios or have read up much on three point lighting.



He said he was reading, and that he was actively working on understanding.  I am going to take that at face value. 

If you want to address lighting ratios with him then perhaps that might be an approach that will be beneficial to include. 

One thing that I see as an issue overall, and you are the lucky recipient, is the ongoing critique of people's comments, to the extent that comments have little to do with the topic or the OP, but are akin to jargon about what one does not like about another's opinion or post. 

I think lighting ratios are a good talking point in this instance. And metering.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 6, 2012)

My understanding on lighting ratios is that the key light should be about 2x the power of the fill light, and the fill light should therefore be about 1/2 the power of the key light.  The background light or hair light I was just going to "wing" and see if I can get it to look okay.  I think I'm doing 2 things at once however.  One, I'm trying to do 3 point lighting (key, fill, hair) and second, I'm trying to get a white background.

Note that this is my first attempt with 3 lights and brand new Cowboy radio units--so this is all manual exposure with a lot of trial and error.  Mostly error.  :mrgreen:

My problems are 2-fold as I see it.  First, I have limited space to work and second, I think I have insufficient lighting to blow out the background.

One suggestion that struck a chord with me was to use 2 lights on the backdrop, one for my key and a reflector for fill. That would eliminate the hair light but at this point, who cares?  I'd be happy with a white background.

I think I will move my "studio" to my unfinished basement and buy a white paper backdrop and see if the additional space will permit me to get this more accurate.

I'd post pics but I'd be laughed off the board, so...:lmao:


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## Alpha (Feb 6, 2012)

If you're using two lights at the same power aimed at the background from the same distance, then you can basically count them as one light. So you're really dealing with two lights: one background and one key. I think you're making a mistake by equating power with stops in this situation. That's only the case at 100% efficiency, and the efficiency can change dramatically based on your light source and modifier combination, and distance from subject (or background). In other words, the ratio is correct when the background is two _stops_ brighter, but that doesn't necessarily mean twice as much power. It could mean significantly more than twice as much power depending on your lights, modifiers, and distance. That said, a white background will make life a lot easier if you don't have much power.


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2012)

jwbryson1 said:


> My understanding on lighting ratios is that the key light should be about 2x the power of the fill light, and the fill light should therefore be about 1/2 the power of the key light.


Lighting ratios can be whatever you want them to be in order to achieve the desired result.  a 2:1 is a good starting point, but don't become trapped into thinking it's the only one.



jwbryson1 said:


> The background light or hair light I was just going to "wing" and see if I can get it to look okay. I think I'm doing 2 things at once however. One, I'm trying to do 3 point lighting (key, fill, hair) and second, I'm trying to get a white background.


Ehhhh, you're trying to do about ten things at once.  
Right now, don't worry about the background.  Black, white, grey or purple with yellow polka-dots; who cares?   You want the photos to be of the subject, NOT the background.  Start with just one light (The fill) and get that positioned correctly.  Find a patient subject, have them sit there and keep practicing, adjusting and shooting 'til you get that right.  Once you're happy with that, add the key, and repeat.  Once you're happy with the fill and key, add the hairlight.  The background is easy, and it might simply be, as you say, a matter of too little light power.



jwbryson1 said:


> I'd post pics but I'd be laughed off the board, so...


No, you won't. Lighting is a vast topic and can be hugely complex.  Everyone started somewhere.  Pictures will REALLY help others assist.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Okay, here are my images SOOC, shot to JPEG.  No PP. They suck, and I know that so please don't tell me "damn, those suck" because I already know that.

1.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/URL] DSC_0276 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]

Image 1:  2 YN 560 speedlights shot into reflective black 45" umbrellas, camera left and camera right.  1 SB-700 on the ground behind the model trying to blow out the background.  When I turned up the power on the lighting behind the subject, I think I  got a lot of light reflecting back onto her which overexposed her.  All triggered by Cowboy radio units.  



2.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/URL] DSC_0268 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


Image 2:  YN 560 speedlight on the ground, camera left, about 60 degrees pointing at the back of their heads.  SB-700 45 degrees camera right bouncing off the ceiling.  YN 560 on the ground behind the models to blow out the background.  In this image, I'm not sure I even considered lighting their faces and that is obvious.


3.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/URL] DSC_0278 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


Image 3:  Similar lighting setup to Image 1, but I turned the speedlight horizontal so it was shooting straight at the backdrop and not up on the backdrop.  Guesstimated manual exposures---clearly, I used too little power on the key and fill lights.

As I've said before, I think my issues are 2 fold. First, insufficient space to work and Second, insufficient light to blow out the backdrop.  

Take your best shots.  I can take it.  :mrgreen:


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2012)

Okay, first point.  Your subject is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too close to the background.  You may, or may not be able to do anything about.  Ideally, a separation of 10+ feet is ideal.

1.  This one could work (ignoring the background for now).  Your key (image left) light is 1-2 stops too high for your exposure.  If you're going to do the basic 30 degrees left/right of camera, make sure that you have at least a 1 - 1.5 stop difference.

2.  You're close to blowing out the background here, but didn't quite make it.  On speedlight into a reflecting umbrella high and 15-20 deg camera right would have nailed this one.

3.  Pretty much as per #2.

So, here's what I would do:  You clearly don't have the light or space to blow out your background, so go the other way.  Crank up your shutter-speed to the maximum you can (1/200 - 1/250 probably) and go for a black background and proper illumination on the subjects.  

Determining exposure for multiple lights without a meter is a PIA!  I would concentrate on the basics.  Start with one light, get that right, add the key, get that right, etc.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 6, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Okay, first point.  Your subject is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too close to the background.  You may, or may not be able to do anything about.  Ideally, a separation of 10+ feet is ideal.



Exactly.  I'm in very limited space which makes it a real PITA.      Once I move to the basement, I will have a lot more room to work. Hopefully that will help.  




tirediron said:


> You clearly don't have the light or space  to blow out your background, so go the other way.  Crank up your  shutter-speed to the maximum you can (1/200 - 1/250 probably) and go for  a black background and proper illumination on the subjects.



I have taken some decent shots with blacked out background (see below) but was hoping to go the other direction on the kids to learn the white background.  I'm going to order some white paper from B&H and return the muslin backdrop.

4.  Blacked out background I took a few months ago.  I'd like to see how this looks with a white background and some good props.






[/URL] Katelyn Nude Tummy 2-1 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


5.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/URL] Katelyn Momma 3-1 by jwbryson1, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## tirediron (Feb 6, 2012)

What'cha moanin' about?????  Those black-background shots are fine!  Okay, so you don't have the room (or power) to "blown white" right now, but clearly you know what you're doing with your lights.  #5 is a well exposed shot with both black and white in it; just about the single most difficult exposure challenge in portrait work.  

If you do order paper however, order GREY paper, that way you can go white or black easily.


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## GeorgieGirl (Feb 6, 2012)

I remember the Katelyn photo!!! There you go JW...just keep working on the white...its a royal PITA...but a good challenge!


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