# Photographing cocktails and glassware



## thesun (Feb 26, 2021)

Hi.  I am not new to photography but mostly do outdoor work and have just recently begun doing photos of cocktails, which I want to be vibrant and show off the colors.  My setup is relatively simple and IDEALLY I'd like to have tips that do not require vast amounts of additional expensive hardware, though knowing what I might need is always good.

I use a $200 smooth white formed plastic seamless background by MyStudio, a few flashes, a few LED lights that I mainly use for Zoom conferencing but which help fill in shadows and such.  Sometimes I use my Canon with a ring flash but often my Samsung phone seems to work.

But whether with the Canon or the phone, my problem is that often the photos just are not the right color...off white, or slightly beige, or such.  The white background isn't the right color white.  I usually use the "whitest point" option and brighten the photo that way, but it's sometimes too bright, overexposing the photo.  When I try to fill the white area with white using the "Fill" bucket, it bleeds into the white areas of the transparent glass.  So that's not ideal either.  I have had good results by using the "Paths" tool to draw a path around the cocktail, but it's fairly time consuming (5-10 minutes per photo), and I'd really love to know other ways I can approach having a photo right with just a minimal amount of quick post editing.

Any help or suggestions would be great.  I will try to upload two photos, a before and after.  My first post on the forum so hopefully this works.  Thank you all in advance for taking time to make suggestions.  (Seems the uploads worked.  The browner one is actually after a little bit of editing, the original was even darker.  The brighter one still isn't as white as I'd like, but is much closer.)


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## snowbear (Feb 26, 2021)

Adjust your white balance.  If doing so makes it appear to be overexposed, then pull the exposure down first.


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## thesun (Feb 26, 2021)

snowbear said:


> Adjust your white balance.  If doing so makes it appear to be overexposed, then pull the exposure down first.



And you're saying do this on the camera, not after the shot is taken?  So lower the exposure -.5 or -1, then use a "indoor" (or other?) white balance rather than the auto?  Click...and then see?

Or am I lowering the exposure, click, then do the white balance adjust in software afterwards?

Thank you for the suggestion!


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## snowbear (Feb 26, 2021)

I do all of my adjustments on the computer, nothing in camera.  I use Adobe Lightroom but other software would work.

I'd try setting the WB first, then check the exposure, getting a feel for how much it may need to be adjusted.  Once you are comfortable with the process, set the exposure, then the WB. You can always revert changes and start over.

I'm usually pretty close with exposure that I just go for the WB, then tweak.


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## thesun (Feb 26, 2021)

Thank you for the help.  I'll give that a try.


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## Original katomi (Feb 27, 2021)

Have a look at lighting from below


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## paigew (Feb 27, 2021)

You should be able to get the results you want without pulling it into photoshop. There are some weird shadows going on...what is your lighting set up, do you have a pullback? I would try to set your backdrop by a window for better light. Move the drink around and see how the light effects the final image. Also the original looks underexposed. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Strodav (Feb 27, 2021)

Add a gray card or an X-rite ColorChecker to your scene once you have your lighting set and every time you change lighting.  Use the gray card image to set white balance in post.  If you use a ColorChecker, you can use the gray scale to set white balance and adjust exposure and use the color swatches to adjust color luminescence and saturation.

When I do product shots, I tether my camera to see the images on a larger screen immediately.  It helps set up lighting and exposure.


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## thesun (Feb 27, 2021)

Original katomi said:


> Have a look at lighting from below



I'm not sure quite what you mean here.  Can you rephrase?  Thank you!


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## thesun (Feb 27, 2021)

Strodav said:


> Add a gray card or an X-rite ColorChecker to your scene once you have your lighting set and every time you change lighting.  Use the gray card image to set white balance in post.  If you use a ColorChecker, you can use the gray scale to set white balance and adjust exposure and use the color swatches to adjust color luminescence and saturation.
> 
> When I do product shots, I tether my camera to see the images on a larger screen immediately.  It helps set up lighting and exposure.




Using a gray card sounds like a really good, inexpensive way to improve the exposure.


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## thesun (Feb 27, 2021)

paigew said:


> You should be able to get the results you want without pulling it into photoshop. There are some weird shadows going on...what is your lighting set up, do you have a pullback? I would try to set your backdrop by a window for better light. Move the drink around and see how the light effects the final image. Also the original looks underexposed.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk



Thank you for the reply, I don't know what a "pullback" is -- can you explain that?  Currently it's just a few small LED lights set at 90 degree angles to each other, a flash (or not), and I do put it in a room with lots of natural light.  Sometimes it's too direct so I've got to use a curtain, and that perhaps has a cast of more amber than white.


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## paigew (Feb 27, 2021)

thesun said:


> paigew said:
> 
> 
> > You should be able to get the results you want without pulling it into photoshop. There are some weird shadows going on...what is your lighting set up, do you have a pullback? I would try to set your backdrop by a window for better light. Move the drink around and see how the light effects the final image. Also the original looks underexposed.
> ...


a pullback would be a pulled back shot of your setup, including the lighting so we can see how you have everything set up and offer adjustments.


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## thesun (Feb 27, 2021)

I will try to do a pullback shortly!  Thank you!


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## weepete (Feb 27, 2021)

It might be worth setting a custom white balance in camera for your background, even if it's just for a reference point. I'd also make sure your lighting is all using the same colour temperature, if you are mixing lights.

This makes for some good reading: Strobist


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## Original katomi (Feb 27, 2021)

Lighting from below.
How I would try, 
A  black card under the glass with a hole 2/3 the size of the bottom of the glass
Some sort of light box or clear plastic shelf to rest the card and glasses on that is raised up high enough to put a light source under the glass
The light shines up from the bottom of the glass the rest of the area is in darkness 
Should give a different effect or that an£ a combo with your current lighting
I did this with a cardboard tube over a torch at the bottom of the tube and a semi transparent flower on the top gave a good effect when shot from overhead.
That eliminates the coloured tone of your background


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## JBPhotog (Feb 27, 2021)

Your results will be what they are with the gear you are using unless you can manually expose, set the white balance accurately and use lights of known quality. The fact you are mixing flash with LED constant lights will make the job of perfecting white very challenging. I see three distinct highlights which indicates you are not diffusing your light source. There is also a great deal of pixelation in this sample, is this your phone photo?

I would suggest you look for samples of what you are trying to achieve and then deconstruct them. FWIW, A soft box from above and to the back does a nice job of shots like this to illuminate the coloured drink contents and add some highlights to the crushed ice reflections. Front lighting will kill any sparkle and deaden the colours.


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## thesun (Feb 28, 2021)

Here is a pull back and a closer shot of some of the lighting options I have available.  The two LED lights can be warmer or cooler within a certain range.  I've ordered a grey card to help set the exposure.  My (really crummy) Youngno ring light, an old Promaster flash (which has a little strobe-triggered doohickey that lets me fire it when another flash fires) and my Canon Speedlight 580 are all possible...I don't currently have any umbrellas or other such lighting gear.  This area has light from two sides.  If the corner of the MyStudio background is 12 o'clock, there's light at 1 and 5, natural daylight that can range quite a bit on cloudy days or be very bright and too direct on sunny ones.  Part of the trouble is that this is the dining table, so I have to set up and take down quickly to ensure this doesn't get spilled on or wrecked by other household members.

There is also an indoor light above this setup, just LED 60watt bulbs.  

I have generally tried to use the small LED lights shown to eliminate dark shadows.

As far as the other photo, it only let me upload a thumbnail, not sure why.  That probably explains the pixelation.

I have also been reading the Strobist blog.  It is not impossible to invest in additional gear but I'd love to find that I can make good use of what I have here.  Perhaps with a simple handmade bounce board or other such tool?  If I have the remote strobe-trigger for the Promaster, do I need a transmitter setup like Strobist suggests?  

Thank you all again for the comments, suggestions, and help.  I really appreciate it.  I find that the lighting is such a different world than what I'm used to, landscapes and outdoor shots, that this is really a challenge.  I feel like I SHOULD have enough gear to be able to get much better results, so it's probably that I'm doing things wrong rather than that I don't have equipment. 

Any thoughts about making better use of this would be fantastic.


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## paigew (Feb 28, 2021)

@thesun


There is also an indoor light above this setup, just LED 60watt bulbs. Turn it off!

I have generally tried to use the small LED lights shown to eliminate dark shadows. The LED lights are creating a huge problem for you with shadows. I would not use them right now. 

In my opinion you should look into a one light setup for these. This is easy to do and will produce good, professional results. 







I think you should take advantage of the natural light. I know you said it was either too dim or too bright, but i'd love to see how it looks anyway with the set up like I show below. Depending on how bright it is, you can move your backdrop closer/farther to the window. If you don't like the results of this, I would then try to use your on camera, bounced speedlight.


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## thesun (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi @paigew -- thank you for the suggestions!

Really appreciate your taking the time.  I can turn off the indoor light, and of course not use the LED small lights.  My natural light source varies so much though that I'd love to be able to consistently set up lighting that will eliminate the need for shooting only when it's 2pm outside and sunny (or 4pm and cloudy, etc.).  Is there a way to set up the flashes that I currently have to produce a nice, shadow-free, well-lit photo?  

When you say "on camera bounced speedlight," we're meaning bounced into a card?  An umbrella?  

As always, thank you for the help!


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## paigew (Feb 28, 2021)

thesun said:


> Hi @paigew -- thank you for the suggestions!
> 
> Really appreciate your taking the time.  I can turn off the indoor light, and of course not use the LED small lights.  My natural light source varies so much though that I'd love to be able to consistently set up lighting that will eliminate the need for shooting only when it's 2pm outside and sunny (or 4pm and cloudy, etc.).  Is there a way to set up the flashes that I currently have to produce a nice, shadow-free, well-lit photo?
> 
> ...



I'm sorry I didn't realize you needed them consistent each time you shoot.  Is there a reason for this? Sometimes moody light can add to your product. Even with your current set up you are getting varied light from that window.

 When I say bounced I mean bounced on a wall or ceiling.... Is there a specific shot you are trying to replicate? Or are you just wanting a nice clean white backdrop and a well lot shot? With bounced flash you can overpower the window light to keep it consistent. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## thesun (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi, @paigew -- again, thank you.  My specific situation is that I often need to shoot a cocktail, made usually in the evening.  I'm looking for a photo that just highlights the drink, makes it look lovely and attractive.  "Moody" doesn't quite work for me.  I often want to cut the entire background out and just use the drink with a transparent background, too.  If you think bouncing the flash off the (white) ceiling will be enough, that's great.  Very simple solution!    I will try that.  Maybe that's all I need to do.


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## paigew (Feb 28, 2021)

thesun said:


> Hi, @paigew -- again, thank you.  My specific situation is that I often need to shoot a cocktail, made usually in the evening.  I'm looking for a photo that just highlights the drink, makes it look lovely and attractive.  "Moody" doesn't quite work for me.  I often want to cut the entire background out and just use the drink with a transparent background, too.  If you think bouncing the flash off the (white) ceiling will be enough, that's great.  Very simple solution!    I will try that.  Maybe that's all I need to do.



Try the ceiling and see what kind of shadow you get. You might need to light the backdrop separately to achieve the look you want. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## thesun (Feb 28, 2021)

Thank you, @paigew -- for "lighting the backdrop separately" what's involved in that?  It is a thin opaque plastic.  Would I set flashes up behind it?  

Very best...


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## paigew (Feb 28, 2021)

thesun said:


> Thank you, @paigew -- for "lighting the backdrop separately" what's involved in that?  It is a thin opaque plastic.  Would I set flashes up behind it?
> 
> Very best...



If you want a super bright no shadow background...cut/pasted look...yes you would light your backdrop separately by putting your flash behind the subject and lighting the backdrop so you can overpower any shadows. It might be hard with such a little backdrop. You will need to play with it. You may be able to get it bright enough with just a bounced flash. 

Can I see the final result of the drink cut and pasted onto a new image? ...or what do you do with the transparent background?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## thesun (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi @paigew Sure...Here's one of the shots that worked really well.  This is actually taken with my Samsung GS6.  Then I adjusted the white balance to get the exposure to what I was looking for, then used paths to draw around the drink, and turned everything to transparent.  Then flattened the image so it was all white.  I think partly this worked because it wasn't a stemmed drink, so the shadow was easier to deal with.  I probably could have removed it entirely but it works as is.


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## paigew (Feb 28, 2021)

Looks good! Let me know how it goes with the speedlite. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## JBPhotog (Mar 1, 2021)

I would suggest you get yourself a soft box to mount your Canon speedlight in and use it as described in my earlier post. I have taken your set up and included suggestions as to softbox placement, you will also need two white bounce cards which you can place to bounce back the soft box illumination on both sides of the glass. If you are shooting above as in your example, you can butt the two cards together at the front and shoot over them. Your flash can do slave triggering and you can use the builtin flash in your camera as the trigger, make sure you deflect it so it does not influence the subject, a small white card or tin foil attached to the front of the camera will suffice.

Its nearly impossible to write in text the exact placement of the softbox but you get the idea form this mockup.


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## thesun (Mar 1, 2021)

@paigew Here's a photo I did last night, with the Canon 7DmII and the Promaster and Speedlite at angles on the side.  It was dark so no option for natural light.  I think it came out well, but I still had to do a lot of path creation to lift it off the white yet still-had-shadows background.  And you can definitely see (like on the upper side of the hat pin) where the path drawing wasn't round enough and it looks cropped.  I'm hoping to have a white background white and non-shadowy enough that I can just freehand draw around it and lift it off.  So far, it's about 20-30 mins of photo editing per pic to get it looking like this and I still don't really like the result.





Here's the original (reduced, unfortunately, as this won't let me upload the full image):


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## thesun (Mar 1, 2021)

JBPhotog said:


> I would suggest you get yourself a soft box to mount your Canon speedlight in and use it as described in my earlier post. I have taken your set up and included suggestions as to softbox placement, you will also need two white bounce cards which you can place to bounce back the soft box illumination on both sides of the glass. If you are shooting above as in your example, you can butt the two cards together at the front and shoot over them. Your flash can do slave triggering and you can use the builtin flash in your camera as the trigger, make sure you deflect it so it does not influence the subject, a small white card or tin foil attached to the front of the camera will suffice.
> 
> Its nearly impossible to write in text the exact placement of the softbox but you get the idea form this mockup.



@JBPhotog Thank you for the suggestions!  And the diagram is helpful, too!  I confess, and with apologies, that I didn't quite understand what you were describing in the earlier post.  One, you say "shooting from above" -- is this the source of the light?  Because I don't want to restrict myself to top-view-only shots of the actual drink...in fact, while that would be okay once in a while, I think it's not ideal except as a "salt sprinkle" among shots that are various angles of 45 to 0 from the side.  I think this shot with the raspberries shows how I might do most shots.  Which wouldn't be "above" but rather from the side.  

But if you mean to be placing the flash above, then yes, definitely I could try this.  

For the two flashes you've shown that are on the side, these would be behind pieces of paper or other such diffusers to reduce glare and reflections, right?  

Lastly, when you're using the term "softbox" you are talking about something placed over the flash itself, or do you mean an enclosure with one side open that's made with translucent fabric sides?  It seems there are two terms for this word, and I want to be sure I'm envisioning the right thing.  It would be relatively easy to create a diffuser for a flash that's held above the drink.  Is that what you're meaning?

Thank you again for taking the time to suggest and draw that diagram.  It's very useful.  I'm sorry to be such a newbie that I'm still unclear as to some of the terms that probably I should already know by now.


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## JBPhotog (Mar 1, 2021)

thesun said:


> JBPhotog said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest you get yourself a soft box to mount your Canon speedlight in and use it as described in my earlier post. I have taken your set up and included suggestions as to softbox placement, you will also need two white bounce cards which you can place to bounce back the soft box illumination on both sides of the glass. If you are shooting above as in your example, you can butt the two cards together at the front and shoot over them. Your flash can do slave triggering and you can use the builtin flash in your camera as the trigger, make sure you deflect it so it does not influence the subject, a small white card or tin foil attached to the front of the camera will suffice.
> ...



As you can see from your examples the raspberries are looking dull, this is due to front lighting and why not spritz them with some water to moisten them up?

The two white cards are just that white bounce cards they are not diffusion for flashes.

You could use a sheet of diffusion above the subject and aim the flash through the diffusion, we call this a scrim.


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## thesun (Mar 1, 2021)

@JBPhotog That's a great idea to spritz with water.  Thank you!  

Yes, I will try to play with these ideas you've mentioned and see how things go!


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## JBPhotog (Mar 1, 2021)

Front lighting and light placement is causing many issues for you. BTW, you have taken on a subject that is very challenging with less than ideal tools and much to learn to produce professional results, I admire your tenacity as you work through this subject.


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## thesun (Mar 1, 2021)

JBPhotog said:


> Front lighting and light placement is causing many issues for you. BTW, you have taken on a subject that is very challenging with less than ideal tools and much to learn to produce professional results, I admire your tenacity as you work through tis subject.


Thank you!  Yes, I think I'll be happy if I can get "more professional" results given the limitations -- I know it's tough to match (or even approach!) the shots a dedicated studio could offer.  But the helpful hints have been great!


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## JBPhotog (Mar 1, 2021)

As an addition, you can see from the shadows how all of your colour sources are influencing the shadow colour bias. Pick once source and white balance from that and don't use your phone if you are seeking the best results.


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## thesun (Mar 5, 2021)

Here's another photo that I think is more successful, thanks to a number of comments here and some other tutorials I read/viewed.  This photo I did not have to fiddle with except for white balance -- using the "white level" tool was all it took.  In this one, I opted to go down to my basement, without any natural light, and use one flash that fired from the top (and some shots, possibly this one, also had a flash mounted on the camera...I think that is where the highlight flare in the glass comes from).  The gauzy fabric was suspended by a "table"-shape made out of black foamboard, with the top surface cut out so that it allowed a square of light to come down from above. 

Really, I think this is a far better shot overall. 

My one question now is that I would like to ensure that the whole drink is nicely focused, and I'm not quite sure how one does that with the automatic flashes.  The last time I used flashes I got out a chart and would flip little switches on it to account for the right focal distance.  I'm guessing (hoping!) things are simpler now.  I'm using a Canon 7DmII, with a Godox transmitter to make a Godox TT600 fire down from above the setup (through a gauzy fabric so it's not harsh light).  If I merely switch to Aperture priority and choose F8 to add more depth of field, will the flashes automatically adjust for that?  Or will it require me to do additional fiddling?

Also, any additional critique or suggestions would be great.  You guys have very keen eyes for this kind of stuff and I'm relatively new -- your thoughts about what works and what's still needing adjustment would be so helpful.

I appreciate your time!


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## thesun (Mar 9, 2021)

@paigew @JBPhotog 

Hope you guys are still out there.  I felt really good with this above shot, thought I'd gotten somewhere, and then made a Negroni and tried what I thought was the exact setup and the photos came out pretty poorly.  I end up stuck with two apparently unresolvable issues:  If I get a nice, slightly overexposed white (such as the bacon photo in the previous post), then the depth of field is too shallow.  (I've been getting this by switching to 1/250 Shutter priority, and the aperture always goes to 2.8.)  But if I try for a manually set, more reasonable Av priority like f8, the photo is deeply underexposed.

I am now using the Canon Speedlite 560 on the a Godox transmitter's hot shoe, with a Godox TT600 aimed from above and deflected through a gauzy fabric that I've set up on the bottom, back, and top of my setup.  On either side, black foam board supports the fabric and (according to a blog) offers some definition of the glass.  

Aside from the depth of field, I was really happy with the photo in the previous post.  What would my best options be to increase depth of field without making the photo unusably underexposed?  There must be another piece of this puzzle that I'm missing.  Thank you (as always!) in advance for sharing thoughts, tips, and suggestions!


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## paigew (Mar 9, 2021)

I would try the same set up with a higher iso and a low shutter speed. If you have a tripod you can very low with your shutter speed. What is your iso? You could go to 800 or so easily. If that doesn't work, you can try manual flash vs ttl and raise your flash power. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## thesun (Mar 9, 2021)

Thank you, @paigew -- this sounds like a great thing to try.  I am shooting on a tripod, so I can definitely do that.  I somehow (yeeesh, last time I did flash stuff was with a Nikkormat, everything manual, including the flash, and the shutter speed had to be either 1/250 or 1/125...couldn't be slower) thought I had to have a high shutter.  

Makes perfect sense.  Really appreciate it.


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## JBPhotog (Mar 9, 2021)

I think you may want to review the exposure triangle to understand how to achieve correct exposure.

Flash sync is limited to a "maximum" shutter speed, in your case it could be 1/250. It is not limited to a minimum shutter speed such as 1/30 which would allow you to shoot at a higher f-stop thus increasing your DoF.

FWIW, I think a web forum has its limits to tutor someone through shooting complicated subjects such as glass drinks. I might suggest you look at online classes which are video based so you get more out of them other than the written word.


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## thesun (Mar 9, 2021)

JBPhotog said:


> I think you may want to review the exposure triangle to understand how to achieve correct exposure.
> 
> Flash sync is limited to a "maximum" shutter speed, in your case it could be 1/250. It is not limited to a minimum shutter speed such as 1/30 which would allow you to shoot at a higher f-stop thus increasing your DoF.
> 
> FWIW, I think a web forum has its limits to tutor someone through shooting complicated subjects such as glass drinks. I might suggest you look at online classes which are video based so you get more out of them other than the written word.




Actually, I think @paigew's quick comments were exactly what I needed.  I hadn't known the shutter (when using flash) could be anything but a preset.  Once she cleared that up, I was free to find exposures that offered the proper results.  Bumping up the ISO, using f8 and a slower shutter (1/60) worked wonders.  So I'd say that (at least in this case) the quick notes she, you, and others have offered worked just fine.  Am I shooting for Pepsi?  No.  Am I now a master of the craft?  No again.  But do I have photos that will look far better than what I was doing...and which serve my needs?  Yes.  This thread can be marked "solved" as far as I'm concerned.


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