# Photographing family and many pets!!!



## heidiwags90

Hey all! This is my first post. I have just started my photography business and have a session on Saturday. This session involves four (human) family members and 5 dogs and 2 cats! I'm really at a loss of how I am going to accomplish getting some good shots! I don't have ANY experience with this kind of situation. So far I have done pretty simple family photos and newborn/kid sessions, senior pictures, that sort of thing. Does anyone have any advice or tips? I really could use some suggestions. Another problem I'm running into is (since i'm just starting out and using a tripod my dad bought years ago) the tripod I have only stands at about 5ft. No one looks good from a low angle so I'm a bit worried about trying to focus on that many faces while just holding my camera in hand. So suggestions on that would be appreciated as well. Thank's ya'll, Happy New Year!


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## Overread

Be ready for anything:








A few thoughts:
1) Do the pets actually get along with each other. It's nice to have a family photo with all the pets, unless the cats hate the dogs and you get problems. Do split things up if that is the case otherwise you're just inviting trouble. 

2) Be prepared to pause things for a while, sometimes some pets (like rather silly huskies) get the idea that they don't want to sit down and face the same way as everyone else; and if you push the issue too much all you get is a worried looking dog/cat and a worried looking person trying to smile whilst holding on. Keep things relaxed and don't be afraid to move onto something else or pause things to let everyone settle down. 

3) A few dog treats or squeaky toy, or a clicker or a rattle or something to draw animal attention toward the camera. Don't over-use it and if using treats do check with the owners if its ok first. In general this is what you use a moment before you hit the shutter so that the animals are looking up at the camera not every other direction. 

4) If things don't work as a group break it down into smaller ones; someone holding their favourite cat; etc... You're still getting the shots but you're breaking it into more manageable groupings if the larger setup just isn't working. 

5) Animals which are tired tend to be a lot easier to work with. Especially for dogs if its possible have them go out on a walk first. That way they have the edge taken off their bounce and are more apt to want to sit or lay down and rest. If they are full of energy and bouncing around sure you can get some great interaction shots, but a sit down shot might not be very easy.

6) Tape. If you've got cables to flashes or other things around tape the cable down. This helps avoid trips and tugs and pulls that can send gear crashing down. Similarly keep an eye on things if you're using light stands, sometimes a weight or two at the bottom or just something around the base helps avoid it being hit or knocked over. 

7) You shouldn't have any problems hand holding; shoot  with a bit of frame to spare around the shot so that you've got some room to rotate it a little if you're not perfectly aligned; but otherwise for a sit-down shot you should easily be able to get enough shutter speed to hand hold; if you're using flash as the main light source then it really shouldn't be a problem. 

Even if the pets are really well trained its going to be tricky; take your time and don't panic.


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## JoeW

Overread is pretty much spot-on.  A few other tips:

1.  I find the pet photos tend to work best where they come off as candids (human interacting with pet) rather than a pose b/c it's so tricky to get all of the critters focused at the same time.

2.  Get a squeaky toy.  Squeak it and then shoot right away.  That will get the dog's attention.

3.  Overread is so accurate about animal focus.  So do some shots with the animals and people...and then let the critters go eat or play and just shoot people (or some smaller group/paired/individual shots) and then re-assemble.  The animals will need breaks or they start to get wanderlust and then the people are fighting to control the critters and it all looks forced.


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## imagemaker46

Admitting that you're at a loss is self defeating.  You have decided to run a photo business and unless you want it to fail before you get any traction, stop deciding you can't do a shoot.  Without being too harsh, you really don't come across as being experienced enough to start a business.

If you are lucky enough to get a couple of the dogs looking your direction and possibly one cat you should call it a success, the people will be looking at the animals trying to get them looking in the right direction and not looking at you.  It's more important to get the people looking at you, think of it as a four person shoot, let the animals go nuts, you may end up with a more natural image. Will you be setting up lights, or using the pop up flash on your camera?  If you are settings up lights, tape the legs to the floor, with that many dogs there is a chance of things getting knocked over.

I agree with what Overread has laid out.


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## gsgary

Have a packet of tic tac's in your pocket just before you press the shutter give the packet a shake


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## jcdeboever

heidiwags90 said:


> Hey all! This is my first post. I have just started my photography business and have a session on Saturday. This session involves four (human) family members and 5 dogs and 2 cats! I'm really at a loss of how I am going to accomplish getting some good shots! I don't have ANY experience with this kind of situation. So far I have done pretty simple family photos and newborn/kid sessions, senior pictures, that sort of thing. Does anyone have any advice or tips? I really could use some suggestions. Another problem I'm running into is (since i'm just starting out and using a tripod my dad bought years ago) the tripod I have only stands at about 5ft. No one looks good from a low angle so I'm a bit worried about trying to focus on that many faces while just holding my camera in hand. So suggestions on that would be appreciated as well. Thank's ya'll, Happy New Year!



You will do great. Make sure you got light, stop the camera down for the group shots, use the tripod where applicable, and have fun, your in control!


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## dennybeall

Take a lot of shots and Photoshop the good parts together...........just don't tell anyone!


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## Overread

Photoshopping a composite together is possible BUT you've actually got to plan and light it really well to get it to work otherwise it will look fake and people don't like fake that they can see is fake


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## Shades of Blue

Start with a group shot with out the pets, then add pets as they wish.  Branch off from there and get shots of couples, pets and owners, and individual shots.  I did a family shot over Christmas (my family) which consisted of 7 people and 2 dogs.  These dogs were small enough to be held so the shot didn't turn out too bad.  

I'm not much of a pet photographer because I'm not an animal person...animals ignore me lol.


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## heidiwags90

Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting. 

@imagemaker46 sorry if you misunderstood me, I never "decided" I couldn't do the shoot. Had that been the case, I would not have come here looking for help, and I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I felt like I wasn't experienced enough or up for the task. I don't think the fact that I've never photographed a family of four and seven pets disqualifies me from being able to run a business, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I am at the stage where I've just created a website and am starting to get a local following. Maybe we have different ideas of what a "business" means, right now to me it means I've starting getting requests for photo shoots from friends and friends of friends and other people in my area. I'm charging a very very low price for what I have been told and consider myself to be high quality photos because yes, my business is new. I just wanted to make myself clear on all of that but I do appreciate your other suggestions.


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## Shades of Blue

Getting started in this business is very difficult, as I've been only at it for 2 months and I can tell it's going to be tough.  You can't help how your subjects dress, act during the shoot, nor can you control their expectations or lack thereof.  You did the right thing in that you were catering to what the client wanted and was willing to do.  Your only mistake in my eyes was only charging half.  Don't base your session entirely on time.  I have a base charge that covers an hour.  If I'm less than an hour, I still get the base fee.  I also make it known up front that if we go over an hour and a half, that I add an additional $25.  I'm not going to go nuts over a shoot that lasts an hour and 10 minutes, but you get the idea.

You can get a feeling for how long shoots are going to go by the type of shoot.  Outdoor shoots take longer because there is much more places to pose, longer walk times, setup, ect ect.  With indoor or home shoots, you will be confined to 1-2 rooms and possible a few outdoor shots.  If I had a group wanting shots in the park, I would charge more than for a single family. 

My latest shoot was indoors at a birthday party for a lady I work with.  There were 25 people and I took a few group shots, and then individual family shots.  Total shooting time was 40 minutes, but I still charged my standard session rate (with a discount for being a friend).

Another thing I'm trying is referrals.  I'm giving discounted rates to clients who refer people to me, and a discount for new customers.  I figure I can live with reduced rates as long as it brings in new clients.


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## imagemaker46

heidiwags90 said:


> Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting.
> 
> @imagemaker46 sorry if you misunderstood me, I never "decided" I couldn't do the shoot. Had that been the case, I would not have come here looking for help, and I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I felt like I wasn't experienced enough or up for the task. I don't think the fact that I've never photographed a family of four and seven pets disqualifies me from being able to run a business, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I am at the stage where I've just created a website and am starting to get a local following. Maybe we have different ideas of what a "business" means, right now to me it means I've starting getting requests for photo shoots from friends and friends of friends and other people in my area. I'm charging a very very low price for what I have been told and consider myself to be high quality photos because yes, my business is new. I just wanted to make myself clear on all of that but I do appreciate your other suggestions.



I don't think I misunderstood what you said.  After reading how your shoot went I am guessing that you did go into a situation without having any lights, "no natural lighting" Was I correct in assuming you used the single pop up flash on your camera?  It's not about running a business, I know all kinds of camera owners that are running a business, it's how professional a person is when running that business. Most own a single camera with the kit lenses that came with it, got business cards, set up a facebook page or ventured into a free web site, watched a few videos, and then decided that was enough to start charging.
I consider the images I produce as high quality, it has become a blanket term in the photo world, it means very. What is being called an "excellent image" now, would have been considered "good" a few years ago, "great image" now, used to be "mediocre" and "good image" now, used to be garbage.   

What it all comes down to is that your friends and friends of friends are happy with the quality of their photos, it really doesn't matter what some person on a forum says.


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## Shades of Blue

imagemaker46 said:


> heidiwags90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting.
> 
> @imagemaker46 sorry if you misunderstood me, I never "decided" I couldn't do the shoot. Had that been the case, I would not have come here looking for help, and I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I felt like I wasn't experienced enough or up for the task. I don't think the fact that I've never photographed a family of four and seven pets disqualifies me from being able to run a business, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I am at the stage where I've just created a website and am starting to get a local following. Maybe we have different ideas of what a "business" means, right now to me it means I've starting getting requests for photo shoots from friends and friends of friends and other people in my area. I'm charging a very very low price for what I have been told and consider myself to be high quality photos because yes, my business is new. I just wanted to make myself clear on all of that but I do appreciate your other suggestions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I misunderstood what you said.  After reading how your shoot went I am guessing that you did go into a situation without having any lights, "no natural lighting" Was I correct in assuming you used the single pop up flash on your camera?  It's not about running a business, I know all kinds of camera owners that are running a business, it's how professional a person is when running that business. Most own a single camera with the kit lenses that came with it, got business cards, set up a facebook page or ventured into a free web site, watched a few videos, and then decided that was enough to start charging.
> I consider the images I produce as high quality, it has become a blanket term in the photo world, it means very. What is being called an "excellent image" now, would have been considered "good" a few years ago, "great image" now, used to be "mediocre" and "good image" now, used to be garbage.
> 
> What it all comes down to is that your friends and friends of friends are happy with the quality of their photos, it really doesn't matter what some person on a forum says.
Click to expand...



The biggest thing to me so far has been how unprepared I was to deal with people.  Even if you can take good shots, you have to be personable and learn to deal with people and situations.  At my latest indoor shoot, I took 2 external flashes, and showed up 45 minutes early to set up the camera.  I had a feel for the room and knew what I wanted to do.  The part I didn't expect was how difficult it was to "herd" the group of 25 into a posed position.  I actually resulted to asking the families to group together, shortest to tallest.  I felt rather embarrassed because I am soft spoken, and although I'm not shy, I don't like to raise my voice for any reason....that needs to change!

All in all I don't think imagemaker46 is coming down on you for being unprofessional.  I think he is just saying that us newbies really seem to jump into charging a bit too soon...me included!  But, at the same time it's easy for the professionals to have 20/20 vision regarding hind site.  Some people have to work REALLY hard at this business, and others it just seems to fall in their lap.


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## imagemaker46

I've been shooting for a very long time and still walk into some assignments with butterflies, it's just the way I am. I do know that I will come away with everything the client wants, but always work to give them more.  I'm terrible at business, always have been, but I am good with a camera and have always showed up prepared and with all the right tools to do the job I'm getting paid for. I grew up learning photography, I shot pictures of my cats, sunsets, flowers to learn about light. I shot the licence plates of moving cars while sitting on the sidewalk to learn how to focus on subjects moving towards me.    What has happened to photography is more and more people are walking into situations that they are not ready for, or equipped to deal with.   So many camera owners use paid shoots as a way to gain experience, it's putting the cart before the horse.  People should learn how to shoot,  buy the right tools, shoot for free, learn about light, and depending on what field they go into, learn how to set up and use lights. There should not be a rush to do the job correctly, but these days, everyone is looking to short cut learning all the basics about photography.  I have a camera, I can start a business and make money.  This isn't directed as a personal attack, it is the reality of many.

Some of the most successful photographers are really mediocre with a camera, but very good at business and promoting themselves.  Personally I'm happier being really good with a camera and mediocre at business. I'd like to be good at both, but it didn't work out that way.


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## tirediron

heidiwags90 said:


> Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting. .


 I'll be blunt:   You don't have a business, you have at best, right now, a hobby for which you're sometimes getting paid.   Who cares what the natural ambient lighting was?  You look at it, and realizing it's not suitable, you go out to your vehicle and bring in the necessary lights.  I couldn't imagine the room which would allow a decent ambient image for multiple people and animals...  As far as clothing and chesterfields go, what was discussed at your pre-shoot consultation and "recce"  (You did do those, right?)?

Something you need to get straight right away if you want to make a go of this is:  When you're on the clock, you're in charge.  You've been hired to do a job, and you do it.  You can't be shy about telling the client what needs to happen.  If they insist on doing it their way, fine.  They're the client, it's their choice, BUT, you, as the paid expertise HAVE to advise them on all aspects, and be prepared to deal with the situation when it goes south, which they almost always do, to a greater or lesser degree. 

This is NOT to say that you can't do this, but rather to say that you appear to have put the cart slightly before the horse.


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## tirediron

imagemaker46 said:


> I've been shooting for a very long time and still walk into some assignments with butterflies, it's just the way I am. I do know that I will come away with everything the client wants, but always work to give them more.  I'm terrible at business, always have been, but I am good with a camera and have always showed up prepared and with all the right tools to do the job I'm getting paid for. I grew up learning photography, I shot pictures of my cats, sunsets, flowers to learn about light. I shot the licence plates of moving cars while sitting on the sidewalk to learn how to focus on subjects moving towards me.    What has happened to photography is more and more people are walking into situations that they are not ready for, or equipped to deal with.   So many camera owners use paid shoots as a way to gain experience, it's putting the cart before the horse.  People should learn how to shoot,  buy the right tools, shoot for free, learn about light, and depending on what field they go into, learn how to set up and use lights. There should not be a rush to do the job correctly, but these days, everyone is looking to short cut learning all the basics about photography.  I have a camera, I can start a business and make money.  This isn't directed as a personal attack, it is the reality of many.
> 
> Some of the most successful photographers are really mediocre with a camera, but very good at business and promoting themselves.  Personally I'm happier being really good with a camera and mediocre at business. I'd like to be good at both, but it didn't work out that way.


 It is impossible to over-state the accuracy or importance of this post!  Read and heed!


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## Shades of Blue

Imagemaker46, that was a great post!  Thanks for that!

You say you aren't good at business, but are great with photography.  Sounds to me like you are at least pretty good at business because you made a good business decision to not jump in head first!  But, at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be.  There is no right way to start a business.  You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures.  As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways.  I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy.  It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!


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## Braineack

heidiwags90 said:


> Hey all! This is my first post. I have just started my photography business and have a session on Saturday. This session involves four (human) family members and 5 dogs and 2 cats! I'm really at a loss of how I am going to accomplish getting some good shots! I don't have ANY experience with this kind of situation. So far I have done pretty simple family photos and newborn/kid sessions, senior pictures, that sort of thing. Does anyone have any advice or tips? I really could use some suggestions. Another problem I'm running into is (since i'm just starting out and using a tripod my dad bought years ago) the tripod I have only stands at about 5ft. No one looks good from a low angle so I'm a bit worried about trying to focus on that many faces while just holding my camera in hand. So suggestions on that would be appreciated as well. Thank's ya'll, Happy New Year!



lol.  good luck.


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## tirediron

Shades of Blue said:


> .... at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be.  There is no right way to start a business.  You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures.  As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways.  I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy.  It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!


 How would you feel if you brought your car to a mechanic and found out he'd just bought his tools that morning, and his only training was watching YouTube videos?  I agree that everyone has to start somewhere, and no one is as good on day 1 as they are on day 1001, BUT...  EVERYONE should have at least the basics down pat before they jump in, and if you're whole plan goes out the window because of a lack of ambient light, then, IMO, you haven't reached that threshold yet.


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## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... at the same time I really don't think it is a bad business decision to jump in head first because it tends to make you learn more quickly what is expected and how difficult things will be.  There is no right way to start a business.  You could spend a lifetime perfecting your images and then fail in a business, and you could be a world class business man and take crappy pictures.  As long as you have some talent, you can really go about this numerous ways.  I think I'm at best an average photographer right now, but I've improved my skill by leaps and bounds in the past 2 months because I'm working towards making the client happy.  It all goes hand in hand, and a little on the job training never hurt anyone!
> 
> 
> 
> How would you feel if you brought your car to a mechanic and found out he'd just bought his tools that morning, and his only training was watching YouTube videos?  I agree that everyone has to start somewhere, and no one is as good on day 1 as they are on day 1001, BUT...  EVERYONE should have at least the basics down pat before they jump in, and if you're whole plan goes out the window because of a lack of ambient light, then, IMO, you haven't reached that threshold yet.
Click to expand...


I can't disagree with that at all.  But, I think that if that mechanic tells me that he is just getting started in the business and offers me a discounted rate to gain him some experience, that sort of falls in the risk that the client takes when they hire you.  If you are open from the beginning that it may take you a week to fix the car because you are learning and are only going to charge $150 where the dealer charges $800, then the client has a decision to make.  Now if the mechanic blatantly lies to me, that is an entirely different situation.  If someone wants to pay a new photographer $50 to take their photos and explains that they are new to the business, I really, really don't see the issue with this.

I'm not discounting being ready to start a business, but you have to jump in sometime.  It's easy to tell the newbies to spend 5 years learning their cameras and then go get a law degree before you charge your first client, but the only person that can decide if they are ready is the photographer.  Chances are after a few shoots, they will realize there is a LOT to learn.


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## Overread

The point is you don't want to go into business learning the basics - you want to go in knowing them. That way you can deliver a competitive product at a healthy good price and earn a decent wage. Most new companies lose money in their opening period - unless you've a seriously good marketing campaign or you're providing a needed service in an area with little to no competition - and that is charging at a good rate. You dont want to be under charging (ergo losing money) whilst learning and providing a product and experience that might not reflect your overall best potential. 

Every time you work for someone you're advertising yourself; you want that advert to be good. 

This is why apprenticing is a good approach; you can work in the industry and make mistakes and learn without putting your name on the line; furthermore you've got someone experienced over your shoulder who can stop you before you do something wrong and show you how to do the right things. At the same time most apprenticeships will end up with you doing stuff on your own which seriously helps you build confidence so that when you turn up you know what you can and can't do and you're confident about that.



Getting started is hard and there's always pressure to earn; its a huge balancing act as to when to charge and when you have to learn and its important to remember that you will never stop learning. There will always be new things to learn or relearn. So no one is saying that you have to know it all; just that you need to know enough that you can turn up and deal not only with the situation but also most possible problems/issues that can arise. 

And sometimes this will even include saying "No" to a client. Yes sometimes do you have to turn down work or say that something must be done another day or another way and for that you need confidence in yourself and your ability to be able to say that.


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## heidiwags90

I feel as if some of you are under the impression that I find myself to be the best photographer in the world with plenty of knowledge in photography and in business. Maybe you think of yourselves this way but that was never the intended outcome of my original post or any post thereafter. I am a college student who has started making a profit off of a few years of a passionate hobby. I understand there is so much for me still to learn and I love the journey I'm on to bettering myself as a photographer. 

I guess(?) I apologize for using the word business, it is just a term I use to shorten the explanation that I am receiving payment for a service I provide. My clients know EXACTLY what they are getting before we set up a shoot and I find it offensive that some of you are so judgmental you would jump to conclusions about me when you have no idea who I am, the quality of my work or the scale of my integrity. All of my potential clients know I am just starting out, they know my equipment is basic in terms of lighting, and they are being charged accordingly, which I can assure you is an extremely low price. I visit a chiropractic office that lets upper level chiropractic students perform services for a ridiculously low price; this is the same idea I have used for my photography. So, please don't refer to me as an unexperienced mechanic ripping off my customers. 

In regards to my "business" or "non-business" I'm not trying to have a fancy studio, I'm not trying to get hired for national geographic, I am just a college student, soon to be teacher, who has a passion for photography and is trying to make a little extra cash off of it. I'm not claiming to have some big, important, successful business, all I did was ask a question as a beginner, about photographing multiple pets and their humans. I would never get on a forum and put someone down the way some of you have done to me. Regardless of your intentions the majority of your responses were not even helpful in answering the question I asked, but just a way of making sure I know I "don't have a business" and making it clear you think I am unexperienced and not qualified. 

You are indeed entitled to your opinion but for the record on the matter of my "business" I never asked for your opinion. I asked for tips on photographing a particular session in which some of you were unsuccessful in answering. I would never answer a post on a forum with the intent of putting someone down and maybe it wasn't intentional but that is exactly what you have done, so congratulations! Maybe I shouldn't be so defensive but there are much nicer ways you could have made your point. 

To the classy people that had positive advice on the question at hand, thank you very much! I appreciate your kindness and your consideration!


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## heidiwags90

imagemaker46 said:


> heidiwags90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone! These were all awesome tips. Just an update if anyone is wondering, the session was very interesting. It ended up only being four dogs and one kitten and the pets actually didn't turn out to be the difficult part. The difficult part was that they wanted to do the session on a red couch in front of their burgundy curtains in a room with no natural lighting. I explained the colors may clash and that it would be better if we had more natural light but they were set on that area. It was all very casual including their attire which included (but was not limited to) ripped t-shirts, dirty jeans and one neon yellow sweatshirt, which is fine if that is what they are comfortable in, it just added to the challenge of it all which is fine too! We did end up getting a few shots but I ended up only being there for half the time I expected (they weren't enthusiastic about moving around and trying different poses), so I only charged them half of what they were expecting.
> 
> @imagemaker46 sorry if you misunderstood me, I never "decided" I couldn't do the shoot. Had that been the case, I would not have come here looking for help, and I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I felt like I wasn't experienced enough or up for the task. I don't think the fact that I've never photographed a family of four and seven pets disqualifies me from being able to run a business, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I am at the stage where I've just created a website and am starting to get a local following. Maybe we have different ideas of what a "business" means, right now to me it means I've starting getting requests for photo shoots from friends and friends of friends and other people in my area. I'm charging a very very low price for what I have been told and consider myself to be high quality photos because yes, my business is new. I just wanted to make myself clear on all of that but I do appreciate your other suggestions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I misunderstood what you said.  After reading how your shoot went I am guessing that you did go into a situation without having any lights, "no natural lighting" Was I correct in assuming you used the single pop up flash on your camera?  It's not about running a business, I know all kinds of camera owners that are running a business, it's how professional a person is when running that business. Most own a single camera with the kit lenses that came with it, got business cards, set up a facebook page or ventured into a free web site, watched a few videos, and then decided that was enough to start charging.
> I consider the images I produce as high quality, it has become a blanket term in the photo world, it means very. What is being called an "excellent image" now, would have been considered "good" a few years ago, "great image" now, used to be "mediocre" and "good image" now, used to be garbage.
> 
> What it all comes down to is that your friends and friends of friends are happy with the quality of their photos, it really doesn't matter what some person on a forum says.
Click to expand...



I understand what your saying and on most of it I agree! But, there will always be times to agree to disagree! Thanks for you consideration!


----------



## tirediron

heidiwags90 said:


> I feel as if some of you are under the impression that I find myself to be the best photographer in the world with plenty of knowledge in photography and in business. Maybe you think of yourselves this way but that was never the intended outcome of my original post or any post thereafter. I am a college student who has started making a profit off of a few years of a passionate hobby. I understand there is so much for me still to learn and I love the journey I'm on to bettering myself as a photographer.


  Don't apologize.  Despite how some of the responses may have sounded, mine included, they were meant to be helpful.  Just because you didn't ask about a particular subject doesn't mean that someone can't offer what they believe to be helpful, relevant advice.  People have been where you are, and have made mistakes, and maybe, just maybe want to help others avoide those mistakes.



heidiwags90 said:


> I guess(?) I apologize for using the word business, it is just a term I use to shorten the explanation that I am receiving payment for a service I provide. My clients know EXACTLY what they are getting before we set up a shoot and I find it offensive that some of you are so judgmental you would jump to conclusions about me when you have no idea who I am, the quality of my work or the scale of my integrity. All of my potential clients know I am just starting out, they know my equipment is basic in terms of lighting, and they are being charged accordingly, which I can assure you is an extremely low price. I visit a chiropractic office that lets upper level chiropractic students perform services for a ridiculously low price; this is the same idea I have used for my photography. So, please don't refer to me as an unexperienced mechanic ripping off my customers.


Something you need to be very clear on:  As soon as money is exchanged for services, no matter how small the amount, the dynamic between provider and providee changes.  Many... even most people will recognize that you are learning and accept that.  I assume that so far, all of your clients have.  At some point, someone will not.  They will want "their money's worth" and that's when the problems can begin.  Do you have a business license?  Do you have liability insurance?  Do you (if required) collect and remit appropriate sales tax(es)?  Lack of any of those can turn into a hugely expensive legal issue very quickly.



heidiwags90 said:


> In regards to my "business" or "non-business" I'm not trying to have a fancy studio, I'm not trying to get hired for national geographic, I am just a college student, soon to be teacher, who has a passion for photography and is trying to make a little extra cash off of it. I'm not claiming to have some big, important, successful business, all I did was ask a question as a beginner, about photographing multiple pets and their humans. I would never get on a forum and put someone down the way some of you have done to me. Regardless of your intentions the majority of your responses were not even helpful in answering the question I asked, but just a way of making sure I know I "don't have a business" and making it clear you think I am unexperienced and not qualified.


  Photography, for better or worse, has no qualifications.  You are as qualified as I, or anyone else here.  You are NOT as experienced as some of us.  Those are facts which are not debatable.  What is debatable is your ability to provide a suitable product in exchange for payment.  Based on your earlier posts, my opinion is that you probably need a little more experience.



heidiwags90 said:


> You are indeed entitled to your opinion but for the record on the matter of my "business" I never asked for your opinion. I asked for tips on photographing a particular session in which some of you were unsuccessful in answering. I would never answer a post on a forum with the intent of putting someone down and maybe it wasn't intentional but that is exactly what you have done, so congratulations! Maybe I shouldn't be so defensive but there are much nicer ways you could have made your point.
> 
> To the classy people that had positive advice on the question at hand, thank you very much! I appreciate your kindness and your consideration!


I understand that my posts may have seemed harsh, but having gone down this particular road, I have learned a few things along the way.  The most important of which is:  DO NOT start taking money until you're ready.  Even if you are only going to do one paid session a month, you NEED insurance and you need the appropriate license(s).  Not having either of those could literally bankrupt you.  You won't have to search too long to find stories of municipalities that have gone after unlicensed businesses for fines which are many times what the business earned, nor to find stories of clients suing business owners because of minor injuries.  Let's say that as you're walking toward little Billy you trip and your camera hits him on the head necessitating a trip to the emergency room (an extreme example, I know, but relevant), in today's litigous society who are Mom and Dad going to look to for payment?

I recognize that everyone would like to make a little extra money, and having a camera some skills seems like an easy way to do it, but there's more to it than that.  A lot more.  The best advice I can offer is:  Keep shooting, shoot every chance you get, but DO NOT take money for it.  If someone likes the job you do, hey, they can treat you to supper or something.  Once you get to the point where you can walk into a situation like you have described in this thread and deal without easily, then it's time to think about hanging out your shingle.  I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm not saying 'Don't do it', I'm simply saying, "Note yet!".


----------



## imagemaker46

Oh and part of it is a thick skin when it comes to what people have to say.  You took offence to many of the comments made by people that are in the business as photographers.  When someone calls you about booking a shoot do you come out and tell them "I'm new, I don't really have much experience or the equipment to do the job unless there is light in the room, but I won't charge you much"  What has been written is the reality of this business.  I'm sorry you were offended by the truth.


----------



## Shades of Blue

imagemaker46 said:


> Oh and part of it is a thick skin when it comes to what people have to say.  You took offence to many of the comments made by people that are in the business as photographers.  When someone calls you about booking a shoot do you come out and tell them "I'm new, I don't really have much experience or the equipment to do the job unless there is light in the room, but I won't charge you much"  What has been written is the reality of this business.  I'm sorry you were offended by the truth.



I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers!  But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases.  I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend.  Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked?  Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge!  My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will.  I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient. 

The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here.  We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books.  But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin.  EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.

I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that!  I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate.  You want to know something crazy?  I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free.  It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session.  I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos.  Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate.

I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.


----------



## vintagesnaps

Sometimes these threads don't seem so much like putting the cart before the horse as sitting in the cart out in the middle of nowhere and the horse is a few miles back going the other way! lol

So if the OP is in college going into education maybe this would relate - I've been a longtime teacher/educator, and this is like walking into a school expecting to teach without first student teaching, or even taking so much as an ed. psych class. I think I've put as much time and effort and learning etc. into my photography as I've done with my fulltime profession in education.

I think it takes knowing what you're doing to expect to get hired/paid for it. If someone is asking amateur/beginner level photography (not beginner pro)questions, does it seem realistic when they're expecting to go out and take on clients?? You should be past the portfolio building stage and know what you need to do to be in business. And I don't think it's really a good idea to need to ask people to take you thru the entire process to be able to get thru a session - and to already be taking on prospective clients.

I'd suggest to the OP to look at pro photographers websites like American Society of Media Photographers or PPA and learn what will be involved in doing work in photography.


----------



## imagemaker46

I think the biggest issue is with people buying cameras and believing that in a very short span they are good enough to become professionals.  I don't care if someone wants to make some money shooting.  What I keep hearing, and have been hearing for years is "I'm a professional photographer on the weekends"  but Monday to Friday I have a really well paying job.  The perception of photography has changed to the point where it's become an open professional hobby, littered with people that show up to events and offer to shoot for free.  What has happened is that the photographers that are working full time are being thrown into the mix and people don't see the difference.  How long does it take to gather enough experience and skill to quit a full time job and become a full time photographer?  How many people would ever quit a steady pay cheque job to try and make it as a freelance photographer, I know these days I wouldn't give up a steady pay cheque to try.  There are lots of amateur photographers on this forum that have the skills and experience, and do produce consistently good images that wouldn't quit their day job, they've also been shooting for a long time.  

This forum gets new people on here all the time with the same question, how  do I make money from my camera, the usual answer is, sell it.


----------



## tirediron

Shades of Blue said:


> I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers!  But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases.  I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend.  Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked?  Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge!  My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will.  I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.


  The musician analogy is an excellent one; may I use that?  To respond, I would ask, "How many of those garage musicians (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever with that term) get a weekend gig at a pub having only had their guitar/sax/bass/harpsichord for only a few months?  I'm willing to bet not many.  Most of them have probably been practicing since they were in school and have many hours work to their credit before they get their first paid job.



Shades of Blue said:


> The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here.  We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books.  But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin.  EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.


  Not the case at all.  We're trying to help!  It sounds harsh, even hurtful, but the reality is, many people don't know how much they don't know.  To refer to your musician's analogy, would you say to me, if I had purchased my guitar six months ago (never having played a note in my life before that) and could now just manage to play "Stairway to Heaven" (more or less) I should seek paying gigs?  I'm betting not!



Shades of Blue said:


> I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that!  I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate.  You want to know something crazy?  I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free.  It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session.  I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos.  Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate.  I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.


And the problem there will be raising your rates.  People who paid you $50 last year for their Christmas card shot are not going to be pleased when you say the same shot this will cost them $200!  Like Imagemaker, I have NO issue with anyone trying to make a go of paid photography, but I do feel that it's important to get across to them how to do it correctly.


----------



## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers!  But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases.  I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend.  Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked?  Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge!  My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will.  I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.
> 
> 
> 
> The musician analogy is an excellent one; may I use that?  To respond, I would ask, "How many of those garage musicians (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever with that term) get a weekend gig at a pub having only had their guitar/sax/bass/harpsichord for only a few months?  I'm willing to bet not many.  Most of them have probably been practicing since they were in school and have many hours work to their credit before they get their first paid job.
> 
> 
> 
> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here.  We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books.  But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin.  EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not the case at all.  We're trying to help!  It sounds harsh, even hurtful, but the reality is, many people don't know how much they don't know.  To refer to your musician's analogy, would you say to me, if I had purchased my guitar six months ago (never having played a note in my life before that) and could now just manage to play "Stairway to Heaven" (more or less) I should seek paying gigs?  I'm betting not!
> 
> 
> 
> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that!  I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate.  You want to know something crazy?  I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free.  It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session.  I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos.  Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate.  I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the problem there will be raising your rates.  People who paid you $50 last year for their Christmas card shot are not going to be pleased when you say the same shot this will cost them $200!  Like Imagemaker, I have NO issue with anyone trying to make a go of paid photography, but I do feel that it's important to get across to them how to do it correctly.
Click to expand...



Ah see, you've caught me at my own analogy lol!  The proof is in the product.  If a band has a bunch of new musicians that don't know how to play a lick and they get a bar gig, chances are they won't be playing many more gigs if you get my drift.  To me, if a photographer isn't very good, then it will show in how quickly they get repeat and referral business.

You guys have been awesome.  I actually don't take offense to much and it's hard to hurt my feelings.  I just see a lot of people around here taking offense when newbies mention business and I'm just calling it like I see it.  People think they are better than what they are, and it's difficult to hear the truth.  I've sat through countless critiques as a graphics major so I'm almost numb to it.  When critiques are based on preference though, I tend to ignore fully.

And imagemaker46, you make some killer points about photography today.  We actually had many discussions on that topic in college.  As I said above, the cream will rise to the top...or however the saying goes.  Think of it like this...the amateur photographers are servicing a part of the market that the professionals will never reach.  Plenty of people will pay $200 for a session and that's great, but for every person out there that will pay $200, there are 20 that wouldn't or couldn't spend more than $75.  That's the target market for the newbies IMO.


----------



## imagemaker46

Shades of Blue said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I admire you professional photographers who do this for a living, especially those who are full time photographers!  But, I have to say that in my short time here the word "business" is a word of contempt in many cases.  I relate it to an amateur musician making some money playing open mic nights, or a bar band playing their hearts out for $300 every weekend.  Nobody said these are the greatest musicians in the world, but would you want your cover charge back because the band sucked?  Sometimes you probably hear a pretty darn good band and think it was a steal to hear such a talented band for a $5 cover charge!  My photography is an open mic night, a bar band if you will.  I'm new, inexpensive, and convenient.
> 
> 
> 
> The musician analogy is an excellent one; may I use that?  To respond, I would ask, "How many of those garage musicians (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever with that term) get a weekend gig at a pub having only had their guitar/sax/bass/harpsichord for only a few months?  I'm willing to bet not many.  Most of them have probably been practicing since they were in school and have many hours work to their credit before they get their first paid job.
> 
> 
> 
> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> The part that really saddens me is that people like the OP and I are not taken seriously here.  We are newbies, and our product isn't worth a lick in some of your books.  But, as a guitar player I've learned to have thick skin.  EVERY guitar player I run across can outplay Jimi Hendrix...just how it goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not the case at all.  We're trying to help!  It sounds harsh, even hurtful, but the reality is, many people don't know how much they don't know.  To refer to your musician's analogy, would you say to me, if I had purchased my guitar six months ago (never having played a note in my life before that) and could now just manage to play "Stairway to Heaven" (more or less) I should seek paying gigs?  I'm betting not!
> 
> 
> 
> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for the OP, but I for example certainly say that!  I inform the client that I am trying to make a name for myself and grow my client base through word of mouth, and I offer them a very reasonable rate.  You want to know something crazy?  I have had TERRIBLE luck getting people to let me take their photos for free.  It's like I am wasting their time if I offer them a free session.  I've had much better luck with a discounted rate than I ever had offering free photos.  Once my portfolio grows and I get some decent experience, I plan to create a reasonable but realistic rate.  I'm not the best photographer in the world by a LONG shot, but I will give my clients more than they pay for in most cases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the problem there will be raising your rates.  People who paid you $50 last year for their Christmas card shot are not going to be pleased when you say the same shot this will cost them $200!  Like Imagemaker, I have NO issue with anyone trying to make a go of paid photography, but I do feel that it's important to get across to them how to do it correctly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah see, you've caught me at my own analogy lol!  The proof is in the product.  If a band has a bunch of new musicians that don't know how to play a lick and they get a bar gig, chances are they won't be playing many more gigs if you get my drift.  To me, if a photographer isn't very good, then it will show in how quickly they get repeat and referral business.
> 
> You guys have been awesome.  I actually don't take offense to much and it's hard to hurt my feelings.  I just see a lot of people around here taking offense when newbies mention business and I'm just calling it like I see it.  People think they are better than what they are, and it's difficult to hear the truth.  I've sat through countless critiques as a graphics major so I'm almost numb to it.  When critiques are based on preference though, I tend to ignore fully.
> 
> And imagemaker46, you make some killer points about photography today.  We actually had many discussions on that topic in college.  As I said above, the cream will rise to the top...or however the saying goes.  Think of it like this...the amateur photographers are servicing a part of the market that the professionals will never reach.  Plenty of people will pay $200 for a session and that's great, but for every person out there that will pay $200, there are 20 that wouldn't or couldn't spend more than $75.  That's the target market for the newbies IMO.
Click to expand...



What has changed is that there are is a lot of the market that professionals used to be required for,  I used to make good money just doing simple head shots for media guides, company reports, etc, that side has vanished for me when digital rolled in Now they use someone in the office with a camera that could just take pictures, the quality may not be the same but that doesn't matter anymore. So those $75 shoots that I would have done 10 times a week is gone.


----------



## Overread

The Uni I went to did that - simple camera and ringflash for portraits of all the students in the department each year. A good 90-100 odd students per year and really all they needed was one of the techs in the department to do that for an afternoon. For the tiny picture on your profile and ID card its really all they need.

Heck some places (like the college I'm at now) now do it just with a webcam - again the quality isn't there but it suits their needs.


----------



## imagemaker46

I guess the Op has left the building.


----------



## Shades of Blue

imagemaker46 said:


> I guess the Op has left the building.



Being new to this, I got my first taste this week of the "everyone's a photographer these days" mindset.  In December, I had a family friend ask me to take pictures of her daughter this coming spring.  I was on social media the other day and noticed she was posting a lot of photography oriented activity on her page.  I then saw the new DSLR camera she purchased and how she's going to start taking pictures "professionally" as well.

It sort of hit home why professional photographers loathe the "beginner bunch."  I get it, I really do.  It sort of hurts because I've spent years interested in photography, having spent a lot of time in school even for photography, and now people just assume they can do it because they have a nice camera.  I've even gotten some flak on this site just because I'm new to the business side and the negativity rears it's ugly head as soon as you mention that you are new to the business side.

I was always aware that professionals loathed the onslaught of beginning amateur photographers flooding the market.....I get it now, and I'm sorry.


----------



## tirediron

Shades of Blue said:


> ...I was always aware that professionals loathed the onslaught of beginning amateur photographers flooding the market.....I get it now, and I'm sorry.


 It's not the beginning pros that are loathed (at least not by most), everyone has to start somewhere.  Rather it's the people who think that literally all they need are a basic body, kit lens and a facebook page.


----------



## imagemaker46

Professionals have issues with other professionals. In this new age of "anyone can" it has become a challenge to even try and stay competitive with everyone.  Photographers are back stabbing, poaching clients and willing to work for free, just to get a foot in the door.  It no longer matters that someone has more experience, more skills and in many cases has even helped the others along the way.  I have my own personal example that is just weeks old.  For the past two seasons I have been the photographer for a pro football team. I started with them before they even had a name, helping out with pictures, did a few free startup shoots, the job was offered to me.  The first season I worked my butt off building a data base of images for a brand new team. Last season I was told "we're glad to have you back"  as the season went on, I took it on myself to make sure the players were looked after, I shot training camp and practices all season, over 150 non-paying shoots, I was paid to shoot the games, the rest I felt as a professional was my part of being the team photographer.  At the end of the season, they started accepting images from the "photographers" that were handed passes to shoot the games, two of them had been shooting football less than two years.

Two weeks ago I was told by the VP of Communications that I would no longer be the "official" guy, that they wanted to use several photographers instead, these "several photographers" were not being paid.  I was told that they still want me as the "players" photographer, I don't even know what that means, I don't know if I will be paid either(meeting in February to learn my role)  This communications guy told me that he never looked at any photos I shot last season, he had no idea how much I was doing for the team, until I told him.  I promote the team on social media, through facebook, twitter and instagram in the offseason, more than the team does. I do my own projects with the players in the off season at no charge, my idea, my cost. 

I have been shooting football since 1969, I am regarded as one of the best football shooters in Canada, I work my ass off, but in the end it hasn't been enough, other photographers that I have helped along the way, have decided to poach a client so they can go to games.  The VP sees that it's free, that's all.  The players I've talked to are pissed off that I'm being treated this way, I appreciate the respect from them.   There is no professional loyalty with many clients, I have some that I bend over backwards for, because they respect what I can offer them.  So in the end I really lost this job, not because of my actions but because of the actions of other "professional" photographers. One is a condo manager with a full time day job making big money, one is a government consultant, making bigger money and the other is a weasel that undercuts everyone.  All claim to be professional photographers, but have no professional ethics.  Life goes on.


----------



## Shades of Blue

imagemaker46 said:


> Professionals have issues with other professionals. In this new age of "anyone can" it has become a challenge to even try and stay competitive with everyone.  Photographers are back stabbing, poaching clients and willing to work for free, just to get a foot in the door.  It no longer matters that someone has more experience, more skills and in many cases has even helped the others along the way.  I have my own personal example that is just weeks old.  For the past two seasons I have been the photographer for a pro football team. I started with them before they even had a name, helping out with pictures, did a few free startup shoots, the job was offered to me.  The first season I worked my butt off building a data base of images for a brand new team. Last season I was told "we're glad to have you back"  as the season went on, I took it on myself to make sure the players were looked after, I shot training camp and practices all season, over 150 non-paying shoots, I was paid to shoot the games, the rest I felt as a professional was my part of being the team photographer.  At the end of the season, they started accepting images from the "photographers" that were handed passes to shoot the games, two of them had been shooting football less than two years.
> 
> Two weeks ago I was told by the VP of Communications that I would no longer be the "official" guy, that they wanted to use several photographers instead, these "several photographers" were not being paid.  I was told that they still want me as the "players" photographer, I don't even know what that means, I don't know if I will be paid either(meeting in February to learn my role)  This communications guy told me that he never looked at any photos I shot last season, he had no idea how much I was doing for the team, until I told him.  I promote the team on social media, through facebook, twitter and instagram in the offseason, more than the team does. I do my own projects with the players in the off season at no charge, my idea, my cost.
> 
> I have been shooting football since 1969, I am regarded as one of the best football shooters in Canada, I work my ass off, but in the end it hasn't been enough, other photographers that I have helped along the way, have decided to poach a client so they can go to games.  The VP sees that it's free, that's all.  The players I've talked to are pissed off that I'm being treated this way, I appreciate the respect from them.   There is no professional loyalty with many clients, I have some that I bend over backwards for, because they respect what I can offer them.  So in the end I really lost this job, not because of my actions but because of the actions of other "professional" photographers. One is a condo manager with a full time day job making big money, one is a government consultant, making bigger money and the other is a weasel that undercuts everyone.  All claim to be professional photographers, but have no professional ethics.  Life goes on.



Now that just sucks!  I hate to hear that bro.


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## vintagesnaps

I'd think about taking along 'tear sheets' such as they are today, and along with telling the guy, show him what you've done the past two seasons - slap it on his desk, put it in front of his face! lol (Bleed all over 'em, let 'em know you're there! - Slapshot)

May not do any good but I'd probably at least show them what I did, bunch o' lame ass $%!&$...  lol geez that makes me mad reading this. Idiot. (him not you)

I know three guys here who worked in local media/radio who all got laid off several years ago. A bloodletting the one guy called it. He ended up with a PR job. The other two went into retail/sales. The one just recently got back into radio after managing a chain convenience store; nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants to do for a living but not his first choice by any stretch. He was lucky I guess that someone working in media who happened to know about the job opening, knew him and recommended him, so that he interviewed and got the job.

I wish you luck.


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## imagemaker46

vintagesnaps said:


> I'd think about taking along 'tear sheets' such as they are today, and along with telling the guy, show him what you've done the past two seasons - slap it on his desk, put it in front of his face! lol (Bleed all over 'em, let 'em know you're there! - Slapshot)
> 
> May not do any good but I'd probably at least show them what I did, bunch o' lame ass $%!&$...  lol geez that makes me mad reading this. Idiot. (him not you)
> 
> I know three guys here who worked in local media/radio who all got laid off several years ago. A bloodletting the one guy called it. He ended up with a PR job. The other two went into retail/sales. The one just recently got back into radio after managing a chain convenience store; nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants to do for a living but not his first choice by any stretch. He was lucky I guess that someone working in media who happened to know about the job opening, knew him and recommended him, so that he interviewed and got the job.
> 
> I wish you luck.


Being as I am the one that has supplied the images for their web site in the past two years and work with both the social media and web guy, the entire team knows who I am and what I have been doing. I found it amazing that the VP of Communications doesn't go on face book, isn't part of any of the team's fan sites, uses twitter to talk about nothing, and really seems to serve no function.  The players have no idea who he is as he never watches practice.  He makes the decisions on his own. Last week he laid off one of the most respected media guys in the league, out of the blue he decided on a salary dump, and then advertised the next day for a new media guy.  I've been through this kind of thing before and both times one person made the decisions and soon the teams folded as a result of mismanagement.  His ego and lack of vision, will hopefully be his downfall.


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## tirediron

imagemaker46 said:


> Being as I am the one that has supplied the images for their web site in the past two years and work with both the social media and web guy, the entire team knows who I am and what I have been doing. I found it amazing that the VP of Communications doesn't go on face book, isn't part of any of the team's fan sites, uses twitter to talk about nothing, and really seems to serve no function.  The players have no idea who he is as he never watches practice.  He makes the decisions on his own. Last week he laid off one of the most respected media guys in the league, out of the blue he decided on a salary dump, and then advertised the next day for a new media guy.  I've been through this kind of thing before and both times one person made the decisions and soon the teams folded as a result of mismanagement.  His ego and lack of vision, will hopefully be his downfall.


 Sounds like someone with a [hopefully] short career ahead of him.


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## unpopular

imagemaker46 said:


> Admitting that you're at a loss is self defeating.



We have this weird concept that you can just "little blue engine" through anything, all it takes it a positive attitude and you can achieve anything. All you need to do is blindly persevere confidently.

This might work for climbing a hill, but for many tasks acknowledging what you cannot currently do is an important step in understanding what you you need to do so that you can. No amount of positive self-talk will teach you new skills, and saying "I can do this" when in fact you can't will only lead to disastrous consequences.

The simple truth of the matter is that confidence isn't a shortcut.


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## calamityjane

If you're going to be a teacher, then you need to learn basic grammar. It's "from", not "off of".


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