# Done with Adobe



## myvinyl333 (Dec 14, 2015)

LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!

Not looking for open source. If there is a "kind" soul with "experience" outside of Adobe I would appreciate some advice- Thank You in advance


----------



## jsecordphoto (Dec 14, 2015)

I really don't understand why so many people hate LR and PS CC. Literally the only thing different is paying $10/month and that's nothing for how useful both products are


----------



## myvinyl333 (Dec 14, 2015)

Glad you like Adobe and a  monthly fee, but can you suggest an alternative for someone who does not? Thank You


----------



## Ysarex (Dec 14, 2015)

myvinyl333 said:


> LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!
> 
> Not looking for open source. If there is a "kind" soul with "experience" outside of Adobe I would appreciate some advice- Thank You in advance



What camera are you shooting?

Joe


----------



## Dillard (Dec 14, 2015)

Is it the monthly fee that turns you away?

Pick up a copy of Lightroom 6 and never pay another penny. Or if you just don't like adobe in general, look into Aperture. I've dabbled in it a bit. I like LR better, but there were parts about Aperture I liked as well.


----------



## Ysarex (Dec 14, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!
> ...



I just saw one of your other posts. You have a Sony A7. Sony cameras come with a free copy of Capture One Express. You can download it for free; check the data with your camera.

Once you have Capture One Express you get a discount to upgrade to Capture One Pro. The DAM functions of LR are better but Capture One's cataloging feature is usable. Raw file conversion in C1 offers more functionality than Adobe and for my money does a better job -- at least much more convenient as it's a more complete single solution.

Joe


----------



## myvinyl333 (Dec 14, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...


I bought the A7 used, but I will look in the box. Thank you very much for the information.


----------



## myvinyl333 (Dec 14, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!
> ...


Sony A7


----------



## dxqcanada (Dec 14, 2015)

You could try out darktable | the photo workflow software
I only tried it in the very early version, so not sure how it is now ... or if your A7 is supported ... and I don't think it is supported for Windows.


----------



## jsecordphoto (Dec 14, 2015)

The only other option that compares to LR/PS is capture one pro.


----------



## Ysarex (Dec 14, 2015)

dxqcanada said:


> You could try out darktable | the photo workflow software
> I only tried it in the very early version, so not sure how it is now ... or if your A7 is supported ... and I don't think it is supported for Windows.



Darktable is MAC/Linux only and not available for Windows. It is however an excellent raw converter -- very capable and superb results.

Joe

P.S. It's free.


----------



## Ysarex (Dec 14, 2015)

myvinyl333 said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > Ysarex said:
> ...



I don't think you need to do anything except have a serial number and download the software: Capture One Express Imaging Software for Sony | Phase One

Joe


----------



## Peeb (Dec 14, 2015)

DXO Optics Pro 10.

I love it.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 15, 2015)

Provided that you do not have a *problem* with free, I would suggest Lightzone for all-around catalogue, edit and conversion. It used to be payware, and it is pretty decent.

As for Raw conversion on mac, Raw Photo Processor is good, depending on your level of technical skill. It produces very, very good files. It has always been my favorite processor. However, it is very technical to use.


----------



## Derrel (Dec 15, 2015)

Can you simply purchase a licensed copy of Lightroom, and keep using it? That seems like a good alternative to the monthly fee model...buy your own copy, and own it, rather than the monthly tithing model.


----------



## jaomul (Dec 15, 2015)

I got DxO optics 8 for free recently (its often given away free with magazines but you can sometimes get it online if you google it), I'm sure 9 will be free soon enough somewhere. Last years software is usually great (for free) as long as it's up to date enough to recognise your cameras raw file


----------



## goooner (Dec 15, 2015)

myvinyl333 said:


> LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!
> 
> Not looking for open source. If there is a "kind" soul with "experience" outside of Adobe I would appreciate some advice- Thank You in advance



I'm in the same boat. The subscription is close to 15 dollars here in Europe. I started a thread on Paintshop pro x8 ultimate. I will give it a go next year. It seems quite affordable, for what you get. 
Corel Paintshop pro x8 Ultimate | Photography Forum


----------



## Jim Walczak (Dec 19, 2015)

These are simply my own opinions, so PLEASE take them as such...

First and foremost, I would want to consider your work flow...how much editing do you do, what kind/how extensive, etc..  Using Adobe as an example, how you work in Lightroom and what most people generally use it for, is rather different than how most folks use Photoshop.  If you do "simple adjustments" and need cataloging features (ala Lightroom), then obviously your needs are going to be different than if you do heavy manipulations via Photoshop.  

I will say that personally I'm not one of those people who feels some insane need to buy the "latest/greatest" software every time a new update comes out.  Like others, I too feel this whole Cloud thing is...well...stupid.  You're not buying the software, you're just renting it (which is why I bought my own home...hated throwing money away when we were renting an apartment...and I don't lease cars either).  In fact when I upgraded to CS 5.5, the ONLY reason I did so was because I was taking college classes at the time...that's what the school was using (at the time) and being a student, I was able to get PS for cheap thru the school...otherwise I'd probably still be using CS3.  So on that note, I would have to agree with Derril there...if you already have an older copy of PS/LR and it does what you need it to do, then just use it and don't worry about CC.

Beyond that, while I know we weren't considering "open source" here, I do have to say in all honesty that if, for some insane reason, I had to give up my Photoshop, yea - I'd probably be using Gimp instead.  It's certainly not Photoshop, but I was quite amazed at how good Gimp actually is.  I've used a number of programs over the years...I find Coral to be REALLY annoying and Aperture is just WAY to "Mac-centric" for my taste (sorry...even after having worked on them for some 5 odd years now, I still -hate- Macs).  For basic editing I thought Capture One was pretty decent, but I tend to do a lot of more extensive manipulations, so compared to PS, I found it quite limited...for what I do and how I do it, if push ever came to shove, again I would probably use Gimp.  Not sure why you've chosen to exclude open source, but if you need more extensive editing capabilities, you may wish to give that some consideration.  

So with all of that said, again I think it really depends on how you work and what you're looking to accomplish.  If push comes to shove, just trying Googling "photo editing software" (or whatever your specific needs are) then download some demo versions to find what works best for you to see what you'd be comfortable with.

Again, just my own opinions.


----------



## Jim Walczak (Dec 19, 2015)

These are simply my own opinions, so PLEASE take them as such...

First and foremost, I would want to consider your work flow...how much editing do you do, what kind/how extensive, etc..  Using Adobe as an example, how you work in Lightroom and what most people generally use it for, is rather different than how most folks use Photoshop.  If you do "simple adjustments" and need cataloging features (ala Lightroom), then obviously your needs are going to be different than if you do heavy manipulations via Photoshop. 

I will say that personally I'm not one of those people who feels some insane need to buy the "latest/greatest" software every time a new update comes out.  Like others, I too feel this whole Cloud thing is...well...stupid.  You're not buying the software, you're just renting it (which is why I bought my own home...hated throwing money away when we were renting an apartment...and I don't lease cars either).  In fact when I upgraded to CS 5.5, the ONLY reason I did so was because I was taking college classes at the time...that's what the school was using and being a student, I was able to get PS for cheap thru the school...otherwise I'd probably still be using CS3.  So on that note, I would have to agree with Derril there...if you already have an older copy of PS/LR and it does what you need it to do, then just use it and don't worry about CC.

Beyond that, while I know we weren't considering "open source" here, I do have to say in all honesty that if, for some insane reason, I had to give up my Photoshop, yea - I'd probably be using Gimp instead.  It's certainly not Photoshop, but I was quite amazed at how good Gimp actually is.  I've used a number of programs over the years...I find Coral to be REALLY annoying and Aperture is just WAY to "Mac-centric" for my taste (sorry...even after having worked on them for some 5 odd years now, I still -hate- Macs).  For basic editing I thought Capture One was pretty decent, but I tend to do a lot of more extensive manipulations, so compared to PS, I found it quite limited...for what I do and how I do it, if push ever came to shove, again I would probably use Gimp.  Not sure why you've chosen to exclude open source, but if you need more extensive editing capabilities, you may wish to give that some consideration. 

So with all of that said, again I think it really depends on how you work and what you're looking to accomplish.  If push comes to shove, just trying Googling "photo editing software" then download some demo versions to find what works best for you and what you're comfortable with.

Again, just my own opinions.


----------



## Jim Walczak (Dec 19, 2015)

jsecordphoto said:


> I really don't understand why so many people hate LR and PS CC. Literally the only thing different is paying $10/month and that's nothing for how useful both products are



I can't speak for others, but personally I don't like CC because it's no different than leasing a car or renting an apartment...you're lucky to get your security deposit back when you move and you really have NOTHING to show for it.  In the case of Photoshop, I actually still have all my older copies that I've purchased (or upgraded) over the years...if push ever came to shove, I could re-install an older copy (within reason) and still be able to get some work done.  With CC however, while the fee may _seem_ reasonable, the simple fact is that they just keeping leaching your money away from you.  It's geared to take advantage of those weak minded souls who believe they have to have the latest/greatest software the moment it comes out, but for those of us who just don't need the latest, it leaves ya hanging.  In my own case, if I were to buy a new piece of software today, I may very well use that same software for MANY years to come (I'm still running XP64 and heck...I -still- play Doom II, LOL)...you just can't do that with CC unless you keep forking money over for it.  

You say $10 is "nothing", however over the course of 5 years, that starts to add up to a lot of bread...and at the end of that 5 years, for the money you paid, you have nothing to show for it.  Think of it like this; say you were paying $10 a month for the computer you're using.  Yea, sure they keep it updated with all the latest drivers and such, but at the end of that 5 years, you've spent enough money to buy the computer.  With CC however, the repo man comes to your house and takes the computer back, while you stare at your empty desk.  Or how about a camera lens...let's say you spent that $600, $10 bucks a month over the course of 5 years.  Sure you got some great photos with it...then at the end of that 5 years they come and take the lens back (or just disable it so it no longer focuses).  Can you _really_ say that's fair?

Perhaps it's a matter of perspective or it could simply be my sense of pragmatism as I'm getting older, but I strongly believe you should get _something_ for your hard earned money.  A lot of people will go out and spend the same money doing a 4 year lease on a vehicle as they would had they have just bought the car...personally I buy a car and drive the wheels off the silly thing until it's ready for the bone yard.  Likewise, my folks had the same Western Bell phone on the wall for WELL over 20 years (with the same "provider"...Ma Bell was awesome! LOL!), yet today people seem to change "smart phones" at the drop of the hat every time the newest version of Android comes out or there's some cool app their current phone won't handle.  Certainly a lot of people are quite content forking out $100 (or more) every month for their 700 channels of cable/satellite TV.  I was always happy with my 5 channels of free network (and I never even upgraded to a converter when they went to digital, so now we just watch DVD's and video tapes)...never really understood the point of having to PAY for the privilege of watching my own TV.  In my mind, software is a product...it's something you _buy _not lease or rent_,_ particularly if it's something you use on a regular basis.  I didn't rent my computer.  I didn't rent the OS.  I don't rent my camera or lenses.  I may rent a video to see if it's something I'm gonna enjoy _before_ I buy it, but I'm certainly not going to keep renting it over and over again...if I liked it, I just buy it so I can watch it whenever I want.  So why should I spend my money to rent my software?

So yea...again I won't speak to others, however personally I have to look at all of that CC stuff as a SERIOUS rip off and long time Adobe users such as myself certainly have a right to be angry about it.  

Just my own opinion.

(to the OP...sorry for jacking your thread - I simply thought a direct statement such as jsecordphoto's deserved a direct reply)


----------



## jsecordphoto (Dec 19, 2015)

For the amount I use PS/LR (every day), $10/mo is nothing. I understand where you're coming from, but to say you end up with nothing after essentially leasing Adobe products for years...I disagree, at least for myself. On average that's 35 cents a day for something essential to my workflow. I'll spend $10/mo to make a few hundred (on average) in print sales. 

They just released an article this week showing how adobe's profits have soared since switching to a subscription based service, some people will complain about greedy they are, but that also means they can pay their creative team more to develop new technology, which is better for us in the long run. While I see your point I still don't buy into it at all, and still feel like $10 is seriously nothing for what I get in return. Even over the course of say 5 years, I may spend $600 for LR/PS, but if I make that $600 in print sales over 2-3 months....I'd say I still come out ahead


----------



## KenC (Dec 19, 2015)

Like others I just have a "gut" dislike of the subscription system.  I'm using PS CS5 and am perfectly happy with it, but inevitably I will end up with a new operating system when the current computer goes and at this point I doubt it would run CS5.  I've experimented with GIMP and it's pretty good, with one major drawback (at least for me), which is that it doesn't have adjustment layers, per se.  You have to use a full copy of the image every time you want an adjustment.  For some images I end up with only one or two, so no problem, but sometimes I have as many as 5-10, which would get really cumbersome.  There is also not quite as much flexibility in painting on masks, e.g., I have not found a way to do it on the actual B&W mask image directly.

Generally, I could probably get by with Canon DPP as a raw converter and either GIMP or PS Elements for further work, but I'd hate to have an image I couldn't process satisfactorily with those options.  I haven't looked at Capture One, so I'll have to check that out.


----------



## idcanyon (Dec 19, 2015)

I use ACDSee Pro as a substitute for LR, even though I have LR though the $10 subscription, which I have for Photoshop and ACR. ACDSee Pro is more or less equivalent to LR, but avoids some of the things that really irritate me about LR.

The $10/month is about the same was upgrading to every other release in the "old days". Those who got every release must be really happy with the change. I did about every 3rd, but sometimes went every other. So its a little more expensive for me. But it is really nice for a change to not have to wait 1.5 to 3 years to get the newest features. Better or not for me, I can understand why Adobe made the change. It makes a lot of sense from their perspective. The price of admission is now much more tolerable so fewer are likely to seek out pirated copies. In the end there is no sense comparing what it was to what it is. "Is the current offer worth it?", is the only question to be asked.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 19, 2015)

Jim Walczak said:


> These are simply my own opinions, so PLEASE take them as such...





> Again, just my own opinions.





> Just my own opinion.



It is unfortunate that people feel the need to disclaim this.

Jim - I understand your desire to keep the peace, but honestly if people cannot determine on their own what is an opinion and what is a fact, that is their problem - not yours. 

Speak your mind freely, and ignore all the immature squabble.


----------



## gsgary (Dec 19, 2015)

A7 goes great with Caprure One


----------



## Buckster (Dec 19, 2015)

I have nothing to actually contribute to the OP.  If Adobe ain't for someone, so be it.  There's plenty of other options out there to choose from, and others can better help with that than I.

But since it ALWAYS has to be discussed in these threads, I'll throw in my $.02 worth of smarm...

I like how people will pay out the nose every month for CATV, not even caring that if they stop paying, they'll have "nothing to show for it".  Same with internet service, insurance on cars, houses, apartments, camera gear, or anything else we insure, mandated or not.

Yeah, people get to keep the newspapers and magazines they pay a subscription for, and I guess that's why people NEVER throw those old papers away - they bought 'em, they own 'em, and they're keeping them forever.  Totally worth building a humidity-controlled warehouse to keep them in.  That way, if push comes to shove, and they suddenly can't afford a $10 per month newspaper subscription anymore, they can always go back and re-read the same articles over and over and over in the ones they OWN.  That's important.

My Jeep is paid off now, so I own it.  Admittedly, a lot of good that will do me when the thing someday no longer runs and is sitting somewhere rusting away on blocks and totally useless.  But I'm gonna keep it forever - because I own it.  Yeah, I'll keep buying new or used ones as needed, and yeah, I'll keep paying, almost like I'm leasing or something, but the difference is that I get to keep every piece of eventually-useless junk I ever bought because "owning" is so much more important to me than whether it works for my current needs anymore or not.  That's why all those old appliances that no longer work are sitting around all over the yard now between rusting hulks of what used to be working vehicles - it's all about priorities.

Food is another thing I'm tired of "leasing" every month.  If I stop paying for food every month, I have nothing to show for it.  That's just wrong.  I should be able to buy food one time, and own it forever, and never have to pay again, right?  Same with gas in the car, oil, tires, prescriptions, phone service, lights, gas, water, sewer, taxes, and everything else in my life that I have to keep paying for, over and over and over.

In fact, as I look at my monthly bills, I see that I'm basically "leasing" most of the things in my life, from the standpoint that I have to keep paying, or I don't get to use that stuff anymore.  Somehow, I've managed to be okay with that.  I suspect that's true for most people.

But pay Adobe monthly, the way I do practically everything else in my life???!!!  Oh H3LL NO!!!!  THAT would be SOOOO WRONG!!!

I've got several versions of PS that I've bought or upgraded to over the years.  I've paid thousands of dollars for them, all told, and yes, I HAVE them FOREVER.  If push comes to shove, I can always go back to that oldest one and do basic editing with it.  Yeah, it's never ACTUALLY going to happen, but I CAN, and that's more important than the reality of the situation, which is that it REALLY doesn't matter that I CAN, since I know I never WILL go back to that first copy I bought, when I have several newer ones that I COULD go back to, which I ALSO will never install again.  And if I didn't have them, I could just go to the latest version of GIMP or some other software for editing when I suddenly find that I can't afford $10 per month anymore (which means I'd have MUCH bigger problems to worry about).

And the fact that the monthly subscription actually costs me far less than buying and upgrading the way I used to do, should have no bearing on the situation.  It's TOTALLY worth it to pay far more so that I can OWN it in my hard drive's dust bin and never ever use it again when I upgrade and pay AGAIN for that upgrade that I want for whatever reason.  And if I'm feeling REALLY frugal, I can wait a couple of versions to upgrade, so that I have to pay the full purchase price again because they don't allow me to upgrade at the upgrade price from a version more than one or two versions old.

Yeah, it's all very sensible and logical.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 19, 2015)

Buckster said:


> I have nothing to actually contribute to the OP.  If Adobe ain't for someone, so be it.  There's plenty of other options out there to choose from, and others can better help with that than I.
> 
> But since it ALWAYS has to be discussed in these threads, I'll throw in my $.02 worth of smarm...
> 
> I like how people will pay out the nose every month for CATV, not even caring that if they stop paying, they'll have "nothing to show for it".  Same with internet service, insurance on cars, houses, apartments, camera gear, or anything else we insure, mandated or not.



I think this pretty much sums it up. I don't understand the mentality behind all the hate. Maybe others have their books in better order than I do, but I have much more larger expenses to cut before a measly $10/month on something I find contributive to my wellbeing!

The $40+ my family spends each month at Red Robin is probably a more effective place to start!


----------



## petrochemist (Dec 19, 2015)

Whilst I too have an inherent dislike for the cloud model it's not so much down to the rental aspect.  Though I'd prefer to make a reasonable one of payment.

My internet connection can get rather temperamental & I might want to process on the laptop while on holiday with no web access so I'd rather be able be confident of having the software on my PC whatever happens to my link to the internet. 

I'd also rather decide for myself if & when to upgrade software. All too often I've had software 'upgrades' that give _me_ nothing new, while changing the layout so I have to relearn the software's idiosyncrasies.


----------



## Buckster (Dec 19, 2015)

petrochemist said:


> Whilst I too have an inherent dislike for the cloud model it's not so much down to the rental aspect.  Though I'd prefer to make a reasonable one of payment.
> 
> My internet connection can get rather temperamental & I might want to process on the laptop while on holiday with no web access so I'd rather be able be confident of having the software on my PC whatever happens to my link to the internet.
> 
> I'd also rather decide for myself if & when to upgrade software. All too often I've had software 'upgrades' that give _me_ nothing new, while changing the layout so I have to relearn the software's idiosyncrasies.


One need not be online to edit and process with CC.  The software for CC is on the computer.


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 19, 2015)

Im probably not a great source of information for non-adobe products since I drank the adobe kool-aid and subscribed to the LR/PS CC service (which I am *immensely *pleased with BTW, especially considering what I get for $10 a month compared to the piddly channels I get with basic cable for more money) 

aaaaanyway...
its been a while, but the last time I used not-photoshop was a few years ago when I tried paintshop pro. I dont remember which one, but i DO remember it did do a pretty good job so you might take a looksie into whatever the newest version is. (X8?) 
Usually PSPro is under the $100 mark for their latest and greatest model. if its comparable to adobe PS and is compatible with your camera, it might be a good option.

ive never used capture one, but I usually hear good things about it. (I also think its more expensive than paintshop pro)
i dont know how it compares to photoshop or PSPro. 

you could also look into GIMP and see if its good with your A7's raw files. 

other than that, im out of ideas. 
theres always people around looking for photoshop and/or lightroom alternatives so if you do find one you are happy with please start a thread for it and give us a review.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 19, 2015)

Buckster said:


> petrochemist said:
> 
> 
> > Whilst I too have an inherent dislike for the cloud model it's not so much down to the rental aspect.  Though I'd prefer to make a reasonable one of payment.
> ...



As for the cloud services themselves, they do work really nicely, and I have stopped carrying around hard drives to and from school. I wish that they gave us a bit more space than the measly 25gb (I asked for more, and oddly, they gave me more, but still only around 80gb). 1TB of cloud storage would be awesome.

But, it's really nice to have all my fonts, patterns, color schemes and assets wherever I go - automatically synced and available on my desktop. I know that for many of you this isn't a big deal necessarily, but for me it's a HUGE help.


----------



## jbylake (Dec 19, 2015)

Buckster said:


> I have nothing to actually contribute to the OP.  If Adobe ain't for someone, so be it.  There's plenty of other options out there to choose from, and others can better help with that than I.
> 
> But since it ALWAYS has to be discussed in these threads, I'll throw in my $.02 worth of smarm...
> 
> ...



Wow Buckster, that was mean.  I need a "safe space" where the perpetually "offended" can go suffer PTSD after reading that post that I might find offensive....

Obviously, I jest.  I've heard this debate back and forth so many times it gives me a headache, but I think the straight forward way you've approached this matter, line by line, is one of the best posts I've ever read on this subject.  I would recommend that beginner or expert go back and read your entire OP that I've quoted above.  Your ideas certainly won't appeal to everyone, but what ever does?  It will give folks a pretty grounded idea of one viewpoint to consider for people that the whole debate is an issue for, and should be mandatory reading for new folks for who the whole dizzying array of PP software can find overwhelming.  Great, to the point, informative post.

J.


----------



## Jim Walczak (Dec 20, 2015)

Buckster said:


> But since it ALWAYS has to be discussed in these threads, I'll throw in my $.02 worth of smarm...
> 
> I like how people will pay out the nose every month for CATV, not even caring that if they stop paying, they'll have "nothing to show for it".  Same with internet service, insurance on cars, houses, apartments, camera gear, or anything else we insure, mandated or not.
> 
> ...



First and foremost, I think you have tried to take this to some sense of the extreme...and based on your comments it looks like it's more or less a response to my own (at least in part).  Your example of keeping a car "forever"...wow...just wow.  Yea...sure, we recently junked my wife's Grand Am as it had nearly 300,000 miles on it, was coming apart at the seems and was beyond my ability to repair.  In -my- view however, we got out money's worth.  Likewise, my old Plymouth minivan is ready to be hauled off...I bought it for $700 and drove it for a solid 5 years, so again I got my money's worth.  Your comments seem to suggest this is wrong?

More to the point, your comparison of Cable TV is flawed...with CATV, you're paying for a _service..._not a specific product (and again, I won't pay for that either).  Same goes for things like "insurance" on things like your house, car, camera gear, etc...you're paying for a protection service.  Likewise with your comment about "food"...sorry dude, but there _IS_ a BIG difference between consumables and software. 

In other words, some of your comments are rather irrational and it seems clear that you're trying to be deliberately inflammatory.  Jsecordphoto said "I really don't understand..." and I simply provided my own view on this as to why some people would have an issue with CC (and clearly I'm not the ONLY person who has such issues). Somehow you seem deeply offended that someone would have opinions and priorities that differ from your own, but then you take comments out of context as a way to justify your own opinions...ya _really_ want to invoke logic there?

Like jsecordphoto, you are welcome to your opinions...as I  and others *should* be to ours, however despite your rebuttal, you've said nothing that changes my mind on this topic _at all_.  If you choose to support corporate profit mongering and deliberate wastefulness...hey...it's your money...but try not to be so offended just because others out here have a _very_ different view.


----------



## Jim Walczak (Dec 20, 2015)

unpopular said:


> Jim Walczak said:
> 
> 
> > These are simply my own opinions, so PLEASE take them as such...
> ...



On the one hand, you're correct...I should not have to quantify or rationalize my own opinions or views, particularly on something like an internet forum.  At the end of the day I do know that my opinions are no more or less valid than anyone else's.  On the other hand - see Buckster's somewhat inflammatory comment which appears to be am  indirect response to my own.

You see my point.  

For better or worse, whether it's here on a photography forum or over on a couple of guitar forums where I occasionally hang out, I do often tend to be the "odd man out" as it were, so yea...it's unfortunate, however I do usually feel the need to provide such clarification.


----------



## JoeW (Dec 20, 2015)

Going back to the OP, who mentioned that he had a Mac...I suggest you take a look at Affinity Photo.  It's created for Mac, is intended to be a real alternative to PS.  No monthly fee, only $49 USD.  It doesn't have some of the LR options in terms of managing photos or reviewing an entire shoot.  But for editing, I've been impressed with it so far (I have just gotten started with it after having read a number of glowing reviews).


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

I still stand by Photoline32. It's not super user friendly, but it is extremely powerful and does many technical things photoshit (oops, typo) can't.


----------



## Buckster (Dec 20, 2015)

Jim Walczak said:


> I simply provided my own view on this as to why some people would have an issue with CC


And, likewise, I simply provided my own view on this after reading your "justifications" for your view on it.



Jim Walczak said:


> Somehow you seem deeply offended that someone would have opinions and priorities that differ from your own


No, you're reading something into my response that isn't there.  Read the very first paragraph of my original response to see my REAL emotional state of mind.  It's not "offended".  Here's a clue: I don't care what you or anyone else chooses to use, nor why.

The only reason I responded at all was because, frankly, I find your "reasoning" to be pretty lame, all reality-based monthly expenses-type things considered, regardless of which little boxes you decide to put them in as justification for why you're willing to pay repeatedly for this, but not for that.  I thought I'd just share that with the group, as you did, in case anyone would like to see the other side of your particular coin.  That okay with you?

As earlier noted, it shouldn't be necessary to say that this is my own personal point of view, but just in case there's any confusion about that, it's just my own personal point of view which, as you rightly point out, we are all entitled to.  Everyone, and I mean everyone, can take it or leave it, identify with it or not, agree with it or disagree with it.  It makes zero difference to me.



Jim Walczak said:


> Like jsecordphoto, you are welcome to your opinions...as I  and others *should* be to ours


Where did I say you're *not* welcome to your opinion?  What's your problem with me sharing *my* opinion?  Am I not entitled to the same thing?  One-way-street much there, fella?



Jim Walczak said:


> you've said nothing that changes my mind on this topic _at all_.


Good thing I'm not trying to change your mind on this topic (or any other) _at all_.  Re-read my very first paragraph in this thread to get my actual views on that.  Here's another clue: I don't care what you or anyone else uses, nor what their or your reasons, excuses or justifications for it are.



Jim Walczak said:


> If you choose to support corporate profit mongering and deliberate wastefulness...hey...it's your money...


LOL!  Oh PLEASE!!!  LOL!  Just stop with the "Evil Empire" crap, before you make me wet myself from laughing too hard!



Jim Walczak said:


> but try not to be so offended just because others out here have a _very_ different view.


Again, not offended in any way, but since you keep saying it, I think you should look into the psychological term called "projecting", then do your best to try to get over it.


----------



## jcdeboever (Dec 20, 2015)

Ysarex said:


> dxqcanada said:
> 
> 
> > You could try out darktable | the photo workflow software
> ...


I agree. It's a wonderful program. Very stable to boot. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

Oh Buckster, stop whining.


----------



## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm going to suggest that the admins of this site implement a new statistic to be displayed underneath their avatar.
That would be the ratio of numbers of words written to actual images posted for critique in the last year.
The problem I see would be dividing by zero, although an error message 'BS' could just pop up.


----------



## Buckster (Dec 20, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> I'm going to suggest that the admins of this site implement a new statistic to be displayed underneath their avatar.
> That would be the ratio of numbers of words written to actual images posted for critique in the last year.
> The problem I see would be dividing by zero, although an error message 'BS' could just pop up.


What does that have to do with the subject of this thread in particular, or any of the posters or messages in it, or anything else at all, for that matter?

Please explain in detail, so that we can really get going with the kinds of responses that you're obviously trolling for - again.  Either grow a pair and just come out with it, or stop trolling with those sorts of posts.


----------



## astroNikon (Dec 20, 2015)

LR is available for purchase here, just go to the Very Bottom Right (yes, the VERY BOTTOM RIGHT side of the page) ==> Digital photography software | Download free Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC trial

I also do not like the CC renting thing.
I've owned LR v4 for years without issue but will be upgrading soon as my newest camera isn't supported by LR v4.


----------



## Scatterbrained (Dec 20, 2015)

astroNikon said:


> LR is available for purchase here, just go to the Very Bottom Right (yes, the VERY BOTTOM RIGHT side of the page) ==> Digital photography software | Download free Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC trial
> 
> I also do not like the CC renting thing.
> I've owned LR v4 for years without issue but will be upgrading soon as my newest camera isn't supported by LR v4.


^  Just_ buy_ Lr6.  I'm personally surprised that someone is still using Lr2 as it doesn't support any of the past say.....three generations of cameras.  Beyond that however, Lr6 is still available for purchase as Adobe has said that Lr would remain available as standalone software.  


As far as the cloud goes.  I personally haven't bought into it.   It didn't make sense to me then and it still doesn't now.  I'll likely run CS6 and Lr6 for at least another 2, maybe 4 years.  By which time I will have saved between $240 and $480 over CC, assuming they don't raise the price of CC in the meantime.    I recently purchased two new cameras that are both supported so it will be awhile before I need something new.


----------



## astroNikon (Dec 20, 2015)

I recall in the investor notes how Adobe (and other companies like Microsoft, etc) were trying to figure out a method of improving revenue stream by making it steady.  If a company does not come out with products EVERY year they are then bound by product cycle revenue.  And it costs a lot to create new product each and every year.

In the case of Microsoft and Adobe it was based on new product, which may take a couple years for new stuff.  So that was stifling investor returns.   The "renting" model provides a steady revenue stream, which with the low entry price actually improves profit as there are less barriers for people to sign up.

In renting/leasing models it allows lower entry costs but costs more over time as the term increases if one also doesn't jump on the new "car, software, etc" model every few years or so.   If one like to "consume / use" a product for longer buying it outright saves a ton of money.

but to each their own


----------



## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2015)

Buckster said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to suggest that the admins of this site implement a new statistic to be displayed underneath their avatar.
> ...



What this site has a lot of is bullcrap opinions. Four pages and 43 posts because some doesn't want to spend $10 a month on tools that make his art or his hobby more fun and probably better.
Why?
People who are happy to bloviate at length on any damn thing in order to show how knowledgeable they are.
We have members who seem to specialize in words without pictures, in knowledge clipped from the Internet.
I look back at people's list of threads they've started, no pictures.
Lots of comments, lots of bull, lots of telling people what is the real way to do things, but no pictures.
With some few exceptions, there is no-one here whose work I admire or from whom I get inspiration.

So what is there either to attract new mid-level people or to serve as an example or an inspiration?

I've been a member here for a long time and the situation only gets worse.
There is no way to count this but I'm pretty certain that done more c/c, edited more of other people's images and posted more of my own than anyone active now and it's damn hard to think of any reason why I should keep that up.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

Well, this just got interesting!


----------



## myvinyl333 (Dec 20, 2015)

myvinyl333 said:


> LR 2-5 is about to be discontinued on my Mac and PC. It is too cumbersome and I HATE the CLOUD!
> 
> Not looking for open source. If there is a "kind" soul with "experience" outside of Adobe I would appreciate some advice- Thank You in advance



I quoted myself in hopes of clarity. I have used LR since 2010 and to be honest 3/4 of it's features are not used. I have yet to utilize proper cataloging. My LR files (Photos) would be deemed a nightmare by all who have posted. However, it has helped me for years after Aperture ran out.   Now that there is a monthly fee I feel like I would be subscribing to a service I would not use...I was hoping to start with a different program with a smaller learning curve. (I have CS5 as well, never used it, too complicated) I have found the A7 a much better fit for my needs and often I need little touch ups other than cropping, etc. I shoot concerts, mostly jazz...

I am re reading the replies as all are well written and have merit. 
Many alternatives were mentioned which I will check out.

*Thank You Very Much*


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

The thread has been derailed by arrogance.

There is no going back. Just sit back and enjoy the mud slinging.


----------



## Scatterbrained (Dec 20, 2015)

unpopular said:


> The thread has been derailed by arrogance.
> 
> There is no going back. Just sit back and enjoy the mud slinging.


Yes.  The christmas spirit is strong in this thread today.


----------



## Derrel (Dec 20, 2015)

Scatterbrained said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > LR is available for purchase here, just go to the Very Bottom Right (yes, the VERY BOTTOM RIGHT side of the page) ==> Digital photography software | Download free Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC trial
> ...



Problems neatly solved...Lightroom is dead-easy to use compared against Photoshop. It's stable, and simple, and great for the person who just ants to get his or her images adjusted for exposure, leveled up, cropped, and presentable--FAST. Just buy a copy of it. The biggest ;ever Adobe uses is the way they refuse to update their products to handle newer-generation camera raw image files...so...the solution is to use a separate raw converter, or Adobe's DNG converter, or whatever, to create universally-readable raw files that are relatively small in size.


----------



## SCraig (Dec 20, 2015)

unpopular said:


> The thread has been derailed by arrogance.
> 
> There is no going back. Just sit back and enjoy the mud slinging.


It is quite amazing sometimes.


----------



## pixmedic (Dec 20, 2015)




----------



## Buckster (Dec 20, 2015)

The_Traveler said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...


Maybe you should start your own thread about it somewhere, rather than hijack someone else's thread?  Just a thought...

Meanwhile, stick a gold star on your forehead for being so awesome in spite of those of us who are failing so horribly to meet with your standards and expectations for allowable discussion, number of words used, number of photos posted, their ratio, and so forth.  You obviously deserve nothing less.  And remember, if you ever need a  waaa  ambulance, just say so, and someone will no doubt be glad to help you with that.


----------



## myvinyl333 (Dec 20, 2015)

unpopular said:


> The thread has been derailed by arrogance.
> 
> There is no going back. Just sit back and enjoy the mud slinging.



 I apologize if I  came across as arrogant.  Some posts I could not reply to intelligently thus I thought I should clarify.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

lol. not you!!!!! HAHA. Just about everyone else, maybe. But not you


----------



## jbylake (Dec 20, 2015)

If I ever found a forum on *any *subject, where this doesn't happen once in a while, I'll know I've passed and am living in the after life.  Wanna really start some s#%t?  Go to a Harley forum and ask, "what's the best kind of oil to use in my bike."  Wanna start a blood bath?  It'll be so deep you can swim in it.  P.S., this post intentionally has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.
J.


----------



## Overread (Dec 20, 2015)

I read exciting news yesterday in Moderators Monthly which states that they expect a working forum extension will be released as early as Q2 2016 which will enable moderators to utilize the latest in shock therapy for training; allowing us to deliver a finger jolting shock through a standard keyboard (cable or wireless). 

Until that time work on the THUNDER DOME continues. 

And until those two projects are ready I've got access to the newest "Family Gathering Enforcement" extension which works very nicely at booting people off-site for a period of hours to days for time with the family. 



In other news people - CALM DOWN - if someone doesn't want to use a bit of software or equipment please do feel free to debate the topic in general and present sound reasoned arguments; but leave the mud slinging and the whole "I'm better than you" because of "insert random reason" at the door. At least show your fellow members some respect in helping them with their endeavours if you choose to come into a thread and choose to reply to that thread.


----------



## astroNikon (Dec 20, 2015)

jbylake said:


> If I ever found a forum on *any *subject, where this doesn't happen once in a while, I'll know I've passed and am living in the after life.  Wanna really start some s#%t?  Go to a Harley forum and ask, "what's the best kind of oil to use in my bike."  Wanna start a blood bath?  It'll be so deep you can swim in it.  P.S., this post intentionally has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.
> J.


OMG
Thanks for reminding me.
I haven't changed the oil in my Harley for several years.
Oh wait, I don't have one.  I prefer Hondas.
Never mind. 


FYI, if you want to see a blood bath just mention the word Honda on a Harley forum.


----------



## unpopular (Dec 20, 2015)

... in other news, Bauhaus came out with a new album a few years back apparently.


----------

