# Define Abstract?



## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

I like taking photos of edges and different uncommon angles of things... is that abstract?  I have so many images of stacked wood its ridiculous... Is this just me?  Is there anything in the following image that would appeal to anyone or is this just a weird thing I enjoy... This image in particular doesn't mean much to me or stick out, I just want to know if this is abstract? Thank you for your time...


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## KenC (May 25, 2012)

Those are good themes to explore, and this one is a pretty good example.  I wonder what it would be like in BW where the red is not a big factor in how it is perceived, especially because it would be really easy to alter the red content during the conversion to make it lighter or darker - might be worth playing around with it.

As for "abstract" I guess my gut feel is that it isn't because it is a very recognizable object, although the image is about shapes and light rather than content, so I suppose one could define "abstract" broadly in that way and include it.  My question whenever these "how-do-you-define-X" discussions start is: "why does it make a difference to you?"  If this or any other image is or isn't an abstract, or art, or in any other category according to any definition, would that change what you do?  If the answer is "no" and you're going to explore what interests you regardless of how others label it, then don't sweat the labels.


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## MK3Brent (May 25, 2012)

That's a detail photo.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

Abstract art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *Abstract art uses a visual language of form, color and line to create a composition* which may exist with a degree of independence from visual references in the world.



I tend to be a purist, and believe if the viewer can pretty immediately recognize the subject, it is not abstract.
I believe successful abstraction relies almost solely on composition, and has little to do with the actual subject.
That is to say, the impact of the image should come from the composition, rather than the viewers relation or interpretation of the subject.

I say no, you image is not abstract at all. It is a study in line and shape, and it's great that you are thinking in that direction. 
But no, it's not abstract.

People will also confuse abstraction, with minimalism.



Examples:


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

Thank you... Love these images!


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

Thank you!

I :heart: abstract art.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

I'll add, in all the images I posted, you could guess they are all walls of some sort.
But, you are not hit right off with the fact that they are walls. You are hit with color, line, shape, form, light, shadow, texture...
So that's what I mean by the subject becoming much less important, and the composition taking the spotlight.

If you like taking pictures of edges of things, expand on that. Take it further! Abstract photography is, in my opinion, the* best *way to learn and become fluent with the visual language which will help you in all areas of photography.


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

I am taking that as an assignment and will be uploading another image before you know it  thank you


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

Very simple.. and not very interesting.... going back out now..


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

If you want a little bit of a guide...

Don't rely on shallow DoF for abstraction.

Do these all in B&W:
1. Find compositions made up entirely of straight lines.
2. Find compositions made up entirely of curved lines.
3. Find compositions made up of lines (straight and/or curved) and ONE shape.
4. Find compositions made up entirely of shapes.

Use color:
5. Find compositions that rely on color to lead your eye around, using any element of design (line/shape)
6. Find compositions that show pattern.
7. Find compositions that contain a pattern break.
8. Find compositions made up entirely of color and tone, no lines or shapes! (lines and shapes can be "implied", but not hard edged lines)
9. Find composition that rely solely on texture.
10. Have fun with it!


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

I will work on it... thank you soooo much for the guide.... I am on a mission now and inspired!


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

Oooh! The B&W one above really isn't bad!

Crop it directly in half, and post the right half. 

I really like the tones in the drain and stopper. Cutting out half of the round disc with the strong pattern will help balance it out a bit. The strong diagonals really command attention away from the subtlety of the drain. The points will now point to a nd lead the viewer to the drain, where as the left side of the disc points away from the drain.

:thumbup:

Oh, and the selective color in the first one, drawns us completely away from the drain.
Selective color is used to draw us to, and tends to hold us on the color. Use it to do exactly that for successful selective color. All to often it is used poorly and draws the viewer away from the true subject.


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

Thanks again... and is there a rule about orientation?  I am so new.... forgive me


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

tmjjk said:


> Thanks again... and is there a rule about orientation?  I am so new.... forgive me


Your welcome!

Does what I said make sense when you look at the new cropped version, versus the original?
I explain what I see, and how my eye has developed. Your eye will develop with what makes sense to you.

As far as orientation, you mean horizontal/vertical?
No rules. You use what works best for the composition for the most part.

For images with clear subjects, you should tend to shoot tall narrow subject vertically, and short, wide subjects horizontally. But that is not a hard fast rule, and it still depends on whats available compositionally.



Oh, as another example from your image....see the little black dots on the edge of the disk? Those same black dots are repeated in the drain cover (which isn;t visible). THose are things you want to pay attention to, and decide to include them or not. The black dots can become a repeating motif.


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

I will post more in the future... thanks for your help, I really appreciate it... I was looking at your flickr page and your images are amazing!


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 25, 2012)

Your very welcome, and thank YOU too!

There are several Abstract Flickr groups you could take a gander at as well. Which will give you more than just my point of view.


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## Ernicus (May 25, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> If you want a little bit of a guide...
> 
> Don't rely on shallow DoF for abstraction.
> 
> ...



I like this little project.  Thanks for posting it.


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## tmjjk (May 25, 2012)

I know ... I'm excited and completely inspired... I really am here to learn and there are some excellent teachers here... And I am completely up for the test


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## Ernicus (May 25, 2012)

So I had this in mind when out on my b&wi adventure tonight, didn't bring the list as I was going to work on it tomorrow.  But when taking one, I was thinking of it.  This light pole had a nice curve to it, round shape in the light, with a building with nice lines in the background.  does it qualify?  or do you need more close up kinda stuff?  or just obscure so you don't really know what it is at first?

Is it not a good subject for exercise...would a crop help?

just wanna get some feedback before I go actually do the exercise tomorrow.

Thanks.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 26, 2012)

No, not abstract. The subject is clear. 

With abstraction, composition is what is important. Any recognizable object should not be readily apparent, it should be the afterthought. 

Abstraction typically comes from smaller sections of larger things.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 26, 2012)

For example, 






While you do see a stairway in this image, you are immediately hit by the composition and its elements.
Color and line and their placement are the real subject. What it is exactly, is pretty secondary. Also the context of this being a building is not present.


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## sm4him (May 26, 2012)

I'd seen this thread when it was first posted and didn't reply because:

1. I couldn't really be helpful when it comes to abstract photography, though I love to try it.
2. I just knew Bitter would come along and lend advice.

Bitter, thanks--some really good, basic advice and a solid "starting point" for those of us who would like to explore abstract photography. I've tried my hand at it, because I often find myself fascinated by the shapes, patterns and colors around me rather than the "bigger picture" objects.

I haven't ever posted an abstract on the forum though, because I fear they are terrible. 

Kudos to the OP for the nerve to do so!  And I do like that b&w drain/stopper photo, especially after cutting it in half at Bitter's suggestion.  

Perhaps I'll get inspired to post one, too. Perhaps.


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## Ernicus (May 26, 2012)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> No, not abstract. The subject is clear.
> 
> With abstraction, composition is what is important. Any recognizable object should not be readily apparent, it should be the afterthought.
> 
> Abstraction typically comes from smaller sections of larger things.



Cool.  Thanks.


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## pgriz (May 26, 2012)

Bitter has a very good eye for these kinds of things, and he shows us what there is if we "see".  Also a very good primer here on what contributes to making an abstract.

The abstract works when the underlying object recedes, and the shapes (diagonals, triangles, circles, etc) whether created by edge contrast or colour contrast or even tonality, become the dominant elements. Really, it's about the edges, since the edges generally define the shape.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 26, 2012)

It's not easy either. Especially finding really successful images people respond to.
It is a valuable learning excersize for composition.


Here is one using line and tone. Remember, line doesn't mean fine lines drawn from a pencil. Lines can be thin or broad. So broad, they become shapes.






Here, the vertical lines can loosely be called a pattern, and the little horizontal line becomes the pattern break.
Cover that up and you should see what it adds to the image.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 26, 2012)

This one uses line and texture.


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## The_Pearl_Poet (May 26, 2012)

How is this for abstract?


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## Ernicus (May 26, 2012)

Yeah, I have my list and am about to head out.  I think I'll be lucky to get one from the list, lol.  But what I like most is how it has me thinking.  I have a pretty technical mind and at times, it is hard to get me thinking creatively.  

I have a great shot in mind of a structure, glass and metal, all made up of triangles, piece of art in front of the college/library.  It will make a cool picture alone, but I wonder if and how I can incorporate this style with it...we'll see.


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## Ernicus (May 26, 2012)

This is tough.  I am struggling with the color portion.  I will keep working at it though.

I still have quite a few to go through from today, but I thought these were interesting so I thought I'd throw them up for review and C&C.

In the color one, I found it kinda neat 'cause the green in the front slats is reflection from the grass...the others are not picking up the same thing.


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## pgriz (May 26, 2012)

Ernicus, you're a quick study!  Those are neat!  I personally like the color versions better.


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## Ernicus (May 26, 2012)

pgriz said:


> Ernicus, you're a quick study!  Those are neat!  I personally like the color versions better.



Thanks!  I'm still torn between color and b&W, but I have not tinkered with them yet so the b&W are kinda boring out of the box.

I was a bit dissapointed when arriving on scene to shoot this thing, I thought (when driving by one day...fastly)...that it was a glass structure, turned out to be metal...but still cool experience.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 26, 2012)

Nice job!

I prefer the color version a wee bit more over the B&W.


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## Frequency (May 27, 2012)

The demarcation between a recurring pattern and an abstract is quite flimsy; breaking away from a pattern is  abstract, i feel


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## Ernicus (May 27, 2012)

Frequency said:


> The demarcation between a recurring pattern and an abstract is quite flimsy; breaking away from a pattern is  abstract, i feel



So if there was say a big solid next to the triangle repetition, that would increase the "abstract" of the image?


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## Frequency (May 27, 2012)

i think so...but all depends upon the final result ; if it immediately reveals what they are, they would tie one to mundane....


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## Ernicus (May 27, 2012)

Noted.


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## BlackSheep (May 27, 2012)

This thread was such a good read! And some really great photos too. 

Bitter, you should write a how-to guide for abstracts, if you ever have the spare time & inclination to do so.


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## dxqcanada (May 27, 2012)

I think she means ... write an Abstract on Abstract.


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## tmjjk (May 27, 2012)

Some b&w's I tried to capture today... let me know what you think... still trying to wrap my mind around this


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## Ernicus (May 27, 2012)

dxqcanada said:


> I think she means ... write an Abstract on Abstract.



But only use one shape in conjunction with the lines of the text


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