# Setting Up A Studio for Pianos



## anmut (Dec 11, 2012)

Hello all - I'm happy to have found this forum and I'm about to use my first post to bombard you with some questions.  Here's a little background - I work for a piano store and we are finally going to setup a studio for our piano photos.  Previously I have used our showroom floor for the "studio" and the nasty overhead lighting for lighting.  I'm shooting with a Nikon D3000 and, up until now, have been using Photoshop for A LOT of touch up on the reflections that the floor, walls and other pianos create.  

Now I have available to me a large open space that I can hang a roll of paper from and setup some lights and get the pictures done right.  So initial questions I have:

1) I'm going to take 3/4 shots of the pianos on a seamless white paper.  Lets say on the largest pianos we would photograph I have 9ft diag. from corner to corner - what is the correct width of paper I should have for my backdrop?

2) I am going to want to keep the amount of ambient light in the large room where my studio is very dark, correct?

3) Where should I start to look for lighting and light shades?  Most of the pianos are high-polish and black in color, which means it's like taking a photo of a mirror for the most part.

4) How far from the back drop should the pianos be placed so it's not casting shadow?  Should I light from the sides to help avoid this issue?

5) What is a reputable store to start buying equipment from?

Thank you in advance for the help - any suggestions please keep in mind that my boss wants this done "as cheap as possible" - however just casually browsing some equipment sites I can see that is going to be hard to do.


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## Derrel (Dec 11, 2012)

Wow..."I" would want an 18 to 20 foot wide backdrop,myself, just for the freedom it would allow me...and I would want a good, clean overhead panel of roughly 12 x 12 feet with three flash heads spaced across it for even lighting and a clean, simple-to-adjust reflection. In terms of silks, frames, and grip equipment,m I can see this being a $3,000 set-up easily. Plus, I'd want a bunch of other studio lighting and grip stuff that I already have...

I dunno...there's more than one way to remove the epidermal layer from a feline...

Some serious tutoring, I think, would be very helpful. Depending on just "how good" the results need to be, this could be done half-arsedly...or maybe third-arsedly even...or you could go full-out "right". I think you need to hire a professional who can provide a consultation, in-person, and an equipment purchase list and suggested S.O.P. list for your company. This idea that this can be done cheaply (your boss's idea) is at odds with my experience in studio and small-product photography; this is an area where SKILL, experience, and KNOWLEDGE counts a hell of a lot, as well as having the right stuff to, one way or another, get the job done. It could be done with continuous lights and homemade panels and fabric-store silks....BUT...the shooter needs to know "how to do it"...


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## tirediron (Dec 11, 2012)

First of all, have you actually looked into whether it might not be cheaper to have someone come into the store and shoot these for you?  By the time you buy the gear, move things around, set up... that's a lot of money and man-hours.

As to your questions:

1.  Paper width is going to depend on how far back from the subject you are.  Seamless normally comes in 9' (actually 107") rolls, so you could try overlapping 2-3 OR buying a white muslin which can be had up 25' wide.

2.  If you're using strobes, ambient light will have no effect, keep it as bright as you need to.

3.  Start with the book Light, Science, Magic! Pianos (or any shiny/reflective surface) can be difficult to light well, and there's no small amount of skill in getting right.  

4.  I would want the piano at least 10' in front of the background.  Light positioning is going to depend on a number of factors, including reflectivity, light intensity, modifiers, shadows, etc.

5.  B&H and Adorama are both well regarded stores with large-mail order catalogues which can supply everything you would even need.  

As I mentioned and you've noticed, doing this well and cheaply are mutually exclusive.  It's going to take a lot of of practice to get it right, and a bit of money too.  If I were doing this on a budget, I would look at Elinchrom D lights (x4), and large, double-diffusion soft-boxes.  I would expect to spend $2-3K.


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## tirediron (Dec 11, 2012)

Hey Derrel... get outta my head!


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## KmH (Dec 11, 2012)

anmut said:


> Most of the pianos are high-polish and black in color, which means it's like taking a photo of a mirror for the most part.
> 
> .


You will essentially need to construct a large light box around the piano to control reflections.

If you don't already have it, you need to a good grounding in the fundamentals of photographic lighting - Light Science and Magic, Fourth Edition: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting


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## Derrel (Dec 11, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Hey Derrel... get outta my head!



lol






*Get outta' my head!* Aye,ya,ya,ya,ya,ya!!!

Happy Holidays, John!


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## amolitor (Dec 11, 2012)

I would look at building some simple sets for the pianos, rather then trying for a white seamless background. The amount of space required is simply enormous, to play the white seamless game, and you're going to spend the rest of your life chasing reflections.

This is basically a (slightly) small version of shooting cars, and that's a niche in and of itself, and an expensive and technical one.


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## tirediron (Dec 11, 2012)

Derrel said:


> Happy Holidays, John!


And you!


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## anmut (Dec 12, 2012)

First - thank you to everyone for their responses - I appreciate you guys taking time to pretty much reaffirm what I already knew:  there just isn't any way to do this on the cheap.

A few points that I had previously brought up to my boss that have already been dismissed have been 1) hiring someone to do a couple pianos just to get a feel on how to do it correctly and 2) having to spend a minimum amount of money just for the right lighting equipment.  

So now I have to brainstorm some new ideas.  Maybe I'll have to build a temp set.  I recently found the attached photo on another website and, besides the exit sign in the top background, I thought it looked fairly nice for a homemade setup.@!
*> Sorry! Forum FAQ's prohibit use from posting photos we don't own exclusive copyright to, unless we include permission from the copyright owner. <*

I'd like to go with a non-strobe setup with just some lights that don't have harsh beams.  Would I be better off with umbrellas casting the light back or using a sheet in front of lights to diffuse them.


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## Designer (Dec 12, 2012)

anmut said:


> I'd like to go with a non-strobe setup with just some lights that don't have harsh beams.  Would I be better off with umbrellas casting the light back or using a sheet in front of lights to diffuse them.



I think if you just select a corner of the showroom, and either decorate it or paint it to your liking (the owner's liking) and then set up more or less "permanent" lighting in that area, you could fiddle with the arrangement until it looks "right".  Or at least acceptable to the boss.


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## Mully (Dec 12, 2012)

Ask yourself this question .... can you shoot a black piano and make it look great? Maybe not as easy as you think.


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## Robin_Usagani (Dec 12, 2012)

sigh...  I wish Kmh slacks off once in a while.  Long vacation maybe?


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## Mully (Dec 12, 2012)

Robin_Usagani said:


> sigh...  I wish Kmh slacks off once in a while.  Long vacation maybe?



Yes Yes


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## tirediron (Dec 12, 2012)

Mully said:


> Robin_Usagani said:
> 
> 
> > sigh... I wish Kmh slacks off once in a while. Long vacation maybe?
> ...


*Ahem!*


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## Robin_Usagani (Dec 12, 2012)

tirediron said:


> Mully said:
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> 
> > Robin_Usagani said:
> ...



If he removed a direct link.. at least put the link for us to click on?


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## Mully (Dec 12, 2012)

Imbed it into a photo


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## tirediron (Dec 12, 2012)

Robin_Usagani said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Mully said:
> ...


*Normally, if an image is hot-linked than we will simply convert it to a link, but if the image has been uploaded to TPF, then that's not an option.*


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

Robin_Usagani said:


> tirediron said:
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> > Mully said:
> ...



Going through a google search right now to try to find that original link.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

Ahh I found it - against all odds I might add!

1912 Mason & Hamlin BB 19159 | Lindeblad Piano


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## nycphotography (Dec 13, 2012)

anmut said:


> Ahh I found it - against all odds I might add!
> 
> 1912 Mason & Hamlin BB 19159 | Lindeblad Piano



Exactly.  Three or four "chinese screens", a couple potted trees, a floor lamp w/ a 15w bulb, and a couple big huge scrims / silk frames.

Much easier than white seamless... and more appealing too.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> anmut said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh I found it - against all odds I might add!
> ...



I think you're right... looks like I can find some vinyl "wood" flooring at a local Menards, just have to find some screens for the background.  

For lighting - has anyone ever ran 4' florescent in a vertical direction and use them to light from the side?


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## nycphotography (Dec 13, 2012)

Do you really want to fight the variable color balance battle of flourescents?

I'd take a bare tube monolight and bounce it off a 4x8 sheet of foamcore clamped to a light stand bracket before I used a flourescent.

Or get a strip box, giant softbox, stand, and mono head from buff.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

nycphotography said:


> Do you really want to fight the variable color balance battle of flourescents?
> 
> I'd take a bare tube monolight and bounce it off a 4x8 sheet of foamcore clamped to a light stand bracket before I used a flourescent.
> 
> Or get a strip box, giant softbox, stand, and mono head from buff.



I'm going to have to google that - you just went way over my head with the technical lighting jargon!  But thank you for the information.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

Btw what are the thoughts on buying a portable garage (basically a white tent) as a giant lightbox?


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## Tony S (Dec 13, 2012)

YOu really need a large light source to light the pianos without getting harsh reflections in it. It doesn't matter if you are using strobes or constant lights, if your source is small and any distance from the reflective surfaces you will get the ugly specular highlights in reflections (including with flourescent tubes, then they are long specular highlights).  Bouncing light off of panels or even white walls/ceilings is going to effectively enlarge your light source "on the subject". Several tips have been given in this thread on how to make your light source larger.  

  Take a good look at the photos you posted. There is a good bit of Photoshopping going on in them and some of it not very good.  Without proper lighting be ready to work overtime in post processing to get the images to your liking.

  Your portable garage idea you just posted might seem like a good idea, but because of the materials used in them you will get odd color shifts and spend time trying to correct those too.


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## Mully (Dec 13, 2012)

Black sees everything so having corners is not going to work ....you need a smooth flat above the piano and about 50% larger than the piano.  Bounce light works best. A soft box will only work if it is bounced on the large flat. Oddball lighting sources are not going to give you even light ....even light is what you need.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

LOL - you guys keep bringing me down to reality here...


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## Designer (Dec 13, 2012)

anmut said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really want to fight the variable color balance battle of flourescents?
> ...



Fluorescent tubes have several main colors of light, and that is before they begin to degrade.  Very difficult to balance the color into something that you want.

A "monolight" is a studio strobe.

To "bounce" the light is to aim the light at a reflecting surface, often white and flat.  The term "foam core" refers to art board that comes in different thicknesses, and is white paper bonded to a foam core.

A softbox is a device that diffuses light, often from a portable or studio strobe.  

"Buff" refers to a firm that makes lights; "Paul C. Buff"

The "portable garage" idea may or may not work, but I think it will end up being too small and flimsy in which to set up pianos.  The example you linked to, the corner of a showroom, is what I had envisioned.  Screens, or some other type of wall covering, your large reflecting ceiling (several 4x8-foot sheets of something white) .


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## amolitor (Dec 13, 2012)

You can use light painting techniques with a small softbox to simulate an immense softbox, which might be good for a 9 foot black instrument, to manage the reflections.






starting at around 7:30 in. The video is about cars, and the whole thing it pretty interesting. It should give you a sense of what you're looking at with pianos.


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

Thank you sir!  I had googled the softbox and the strip box and found  some cheap softboxes and a way to make some super cheap strip boxes.


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## nycphotography (Dec 13, 2012)

sorry for using short terms w/o explaining... here are some examples, for every product there are more mfrs and vendors than you can count. 

Imagine two 4x10 sheets of this foamcore, taped together w/ white gaff (non reflective cloth) tape to make a hinge and then used as an 8x10 bounce card.  one big light source.

bead board, foam board, gator board, Foamcor 4&#39 x 10&#39 Set Shop
Set Shop

light stands
Impact Air Cushioned Light Stand, Black - 10' (3m) LS-10AB B&H

monolight (studio flash w/ power supply built in.  medium size, 320ws.)
Paul C. Buff - AlienBees B800

softbox (need adapter to fit the brand of monolight... called a speedring)
LARGE (30x60) softbox Paul C. Buff - Foldable Softboxes
strip box is a narrow format softbox Paul C. Buff - Foldable Stripbox


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## anmut (Dec 13, 2012)

Thank you again for that stuff NYCPHOTOGRAPHY - that monolight looks great!

Need anyone's opinion on background.  Right now the empty store has slat wall (white with slots for wall hanging equipment) that is pretty dang ugly.  I'm looking into some of the Japanese screens however I'm not sure if that's creating too much of an Oriental feel to the photos.  So I'm thinking of buying some wood paneling to mount to the walls - the 4x8 sheets.  Thoughts on how that would look and what to go with, like a light pine look or would dark look better with a black mirror-like piano?  Then again, if the print is too distinct on the paneling then it will show in the reflections.   UGH.


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## nycphotography (Dec 13, 2012)

I might suggest two 12' white sheetrock walls, and a 8' ceiling w/ incandescent lighting.  This could be a "display area" used as part of the in store experience, which also doubles as a photo studio when needed.  That would require around 144 sqft of flooring, a manageable budget. 

With sheetrock walls, you can repaint them another color whenever you like, you can hang art or otherwise decorate them, and you can use colored gels on background lights to change them as needed.  Leave enough room to decorate around whatever piano is currently in the display space with plants, furniture, etc.

When it's time to shoot, you can hang white rip stop around the outside (or stand up 4x8 foamcore) and bounce a flash from the inside to create a really big "product box".  Interfit 24" Pop Up Photo Box INT315 B&H Photo Video

But whatever you do, don't ever shoot anything in front of product slat wall. ;-)


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## Designer (Dec 13, 2012)

I like what nycphotography (above) has written.  I will second the plain drywall, AT LEAST 12 feet on each side of the corner, or possibly longer if you can make it so.  I would paint the wall(s) bright white, and using above suggestion, gel whichever color looks good with the product.  For instance: gel toward yellow-gold for a brown piano, gel something wild like reddish for a black piano.  (or whatever your boss thinks looks good)

If the highest you can make the ceiling is only 8 feet, you might not be able to do all the lighting that you want to do in the space that is available.  Personally, I would vote for a higher ceiling, somewhere around 12 feet, if you can do it.  

If you hang some large reflectors (see above for suggestions) leave a little space between the sheets for any "normal" lighting fixtures that you want to have up there.  Turn those off when shooting pictures.  

Additionally, you could have some of those large white panels on movable stands that could be moved out and positioned to reflect light onto the piano.  Your flash(es) will reflect from wherever they are pointed.


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## anmut (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm going to shoot some photos of the location I have to work with.  It's a large, unoccupied retail space.  Giant ceilings and lots of space.  I'm almost wondering about shooting after dark (to keep the sunlight from coming in through the display windows) and not using a background at all... just trying to use all the black space behind the piano with some real soft lights near the piano and a long exposure time.


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## anmut (Dec 18, 2012)

Hey all - I snapped some photos of the space I have to work with next door.  It is empty and freezing.  The electricity is shut off so there are not lights.  Any thoughts on how to set up a studio in here is much appreciated.  All these photos are free for anyone to download and mark up/upload.


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