# The Decisive Moment - Ideas please



## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

My current assignment for class is "The Decisive Moment".  We've been working on it for about three weeks now.  My teacher likes three of the photos that I have so far - a ball rolling down a slide, a girl on a swing and geese looking through a fence at each other.

On Thursday he wants us to do a mini presentation and talk about how its coming along, any problems we are finding doing this assignment, etc.   

He's shown us some photos from some of the famous photographers that show the decisive moment to give us some examples.

I seem to struggle with figuring out what looks like a good photo.  I never would have thought the geese worked for this assignment but he really liked it.

Anyway, for those of you who have some experience with the decisive moment can you give me some tips on this?

Btw, I am in a black and white film class so I won't know if I captured the shot until I develop the film.  (that's part of the challenge).


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## The_Traveler (Oct 10, 2014)

To be honest, I'm not certain what you are asking for.
Go take pictures of something about to happen inevitably.
Look at Cartier Bresson - who is the master of this special moment kind of stuff.
What you will get here inevitably is people showing their own 'moments.'


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## sm4him (Oct 10, 2014)

Can you post the photo of the geese here for us? That might help us give you some insight as to why the teacher saw it as a "decisive" moment.

I don't know that we can "teach" you how to see "that moment" any better than your teacher is doing. That's the point of the assignments, and I suspect hearing others' presentations will help you as well.

I guess I'd say, think about what a decisive moment IS to you. To me, it's the moment just BEFORE--I mean a millisecond before-- *something* of import happens. In the goose photo, perhaps the geese are looking at each other in a way that suggests they are about to either fight, take flight or back down.  THE moment before possible confrontation.

Maybe it's a kid, just about to be so overcome by how pretty the flower is that they can't stand it and must reach over and pluck it out of the ground.
A bird spreading its wing to take flight.
Maybe it's the moment you are holding your coffee cup up, just about to take that first sip of the morning nectar of the gods.  (I've got quite the coffee fixation this morning, having had little sleep last night).


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

It is any photo where a split second would be too late, i'm alway looking to shot the Decisive Moment i also shoot 95% B+W film
This is one of my favourite shots






Here's another


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## Borad (Oct 10, 2014)

A bird getting ready to take flight and a startled animal are the first things I thought of and other students surely would use that so I wouldn't. I'd look for something more decisive than what you have but something not obvious. I'd take my time getting the ideas. I'd look around some and think some without looking around. Think about things people make decisions about. There are tons of things like that. When you think of something, keep thinking of others because the first things you think of have probably been thought of already.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

This is the geese one.  Forgive the pic quality, I need to redo it but this is the photo my teacher liked for this project.  To me it looks like the geese are gossiping, not fighting.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

Here are the other two that are ready for presentation.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 10, 2014)

The idea of the decisive moment is widely misunderstood.

It means the moment when there's a photo. It has nothing to do with anything happening. However, like the phrase 'street photography' it's not clear that the original meaning is remotely relevant.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)




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## Nevermore1 (Oct 10, 2014)

I would think sporting events would have decisive moments.  For instance in soccer when the player  decides whether or not to try for a goal, or in swimming right before they leave the platform.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

gsgary said:


> It is any photo where a split second would be too late, i'm alway looking to shot the Decisive Moment i also shoot 95% B+W film
> This is one of my favourite shots
> 
> 
> ...


I love that first photo.  How many shots did you snap in order to capture that one?


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

Nevermore1 said:


> I would think sporting events would have decisive moments.  For instance in soccer when the player  decides whether or not to try for a goal, or in swimming right before they leave the platform.



I think those would be good to if there were something going on.  I took pics of guys playing basketball but the pictures turned out to be too small to use and I couldn't enlarge them more than wallet size. 

I'd love to find some hunky firemen washing a fire truck, that would be a lot of fun to take pictures of.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

Oh and another issue I'm finding is when I see something I want to take a photo of, I have been told "don't take my picture" by a few people.  I explain its for a photo class and I won't be posting it on Facebook or doing something really creepy with the picture but  so many adults are so self conscious about having their picture taken.


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

The "decisive moment" is about timing, so you need to learn to anticipate actions and behaviors. Like gsgary said, if you take the shot an instant too late (or too soon), then you miss it.

And why is it "decisive"? Just because of timing? There's also an implied meaning or behavior or interaction that is also recognized. The photo captures a second (or less!) in time but what's happening in that second has a more universal message or meaning that is recognizable by seeing that moment.


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> > It is any photo where a split second would be too late, i'm alway looking to shot the Decisive Moment i also shoot 95% B+W film
> ...


One I was using a Leica M4P you don't need a dslr with 8fps


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## Nevermore1 (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> Oh and another issue I'm finding is when I see something I want to take a photo of, I have been told "don't take my picture" by a few people.  I explain its for a photo class and I won't be posting it on Facebook or doing something really creepy with the picture but  so many adults are so self conscious about having their picture taken.


Unfortunately most people are overly paranoid these days.  Some of the individuals on here who do a lot of street photography can probably give advice on that issue.  I think there may already be a thread about it somewhere as well.


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> Oh and another issue I'm finding is when I see something I want to take a photo of, I have been told "don't take my picture" by a few people.  I explain its for a photo class and I won't be posting it on Facebook or doing something really creepy with the picture but  so many adults are so self conscious about having their picture taken.


Don't even say anything to the people in the photo if you do there is no dicisive moment


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

HCB writes that a photograph for him is the simultaneous recognition in a fraction of a second of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

> How many shots did you snap in order to capture that one?


If you're taking too much time playing with settings, focusing, composing, taking a lot of shots trying to get "the one"...well, the moment's already gone.

I would suggest finding a busy public area and just camping yourself for an hour or so to just people-watch. Don't worry about shots - just watch them. That's what you have to do when you are taking pictures. You're constantly watching for "the moment." It takes a while to not only recognize moments but also be able to capture what you see. So practicing the skill of observation might help with the pictures.


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

When I'm shooting on the streets my camera is set if I set a moment I don't even have to focus because it is zone focused aperture will be about F8 focus at 10 feet and shutter speed for the available light


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

Remember, she's still learning. Don't throw zone focus at her, too!


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Remember, she's still learning. Don't throw zone focus at her, too!


Why it's not hard and makes it easier


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

gsgary said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, she's still learning. Don't throw zone focus at her, too!
> ...



Not necessarily. You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who already knows how to shoot this way, but are forgetting what it was like to learn and how overwhelming it could be trying to keep everything straight.


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## sm4him (Oct 10, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The idea of the decisive moment is widely misunderstood.
> 
> It means the moment when there's a photo. It has nothing to do with anything happening. However, like the phrase 'street photography' it's not clear that the original meaning is remotely relevant.



If that were true, then EVERY photo would qualify as fitting "the moment," and her instructor wouldn't ask her to pick 5 photos that SHOW "the moment."


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## CameraClicker (Oct 10, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The idea of the decisive moment is widely misunderstood.
> 
> It means the moment when there's a photo. It has nothing to do with anything happening. However, like the phrase 'street photography' it's not clear that the original meaning is remotely relevant.


It was the English title of a French book.  Usually something is lost in translation.  Not so much having nothing to do with anything happening but having to do with the photographer being ready to, and taking the photo, when something, anything, happens.  The subject walks to exactly the right place.  There is a flicker of a smile, that disappears almost immediately.  Like that.  Not missing the moment that makes the photo.  If you are photographing still life, there is no decisive moment.


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## Gary A. (Oct 10, 2014)

Think of "Decisive Moment" as any photo which has a timing critical element. Genre isn't important as much as timing. Typically the height of the action best reflects a timing critical image.

Timing Critical from B&W Film:

#1






#2





#3





#4


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 10, 2014)

I've some simple ideas for you.
1. Shoot two chess players with one of them making the checkmate move. Make sure the focus is largely on the chessboard.
2. A person about to throw a basketball into the net from the penalty position.
3. A person about to run out of a phone booth on a rainy day. (You can easily create fake rain)

Have fun 


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## The_Traveler (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> Oh and another issue I'm finding is when I see something I want to take a photo of, I have been told "don't take my picture" by a few people.  I explain its for a photo class and I won't be posting it on Facebook or doing something really creepy with the picture but  so many adults are so self conscious about having their picture taken.



Take the picture
.Don't ask permission.


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 10, 2014)

Try finding a phone booth Vince! lol not a bad idea though. Gary you might be good at zone focusing, I can't guesstimate distance worth a nickel! (well I can if it involves an inch or a yard since I do needlework).

I agree with Leonore, do some watching. It doesn't have to be people, it could be birds, etc., I was shadow watching the other day, a pattern on a brick wall, and watched and waited as it moved til the 'lightbulb' goes on that tells you, that's it! - that's a moment to capture.

I've done sports, mostly hockey, and that involves some watching and waiting, getting set, waiting til they skate into my viewfinder then adjusting framing and focus and watching for something interesting to happen.

I think out and about with people if they ask not to have their picture taken it's better to respect that and move on, seems understandable that people have concerns about where their picture might end up or how it will be used. You could look at American Society of Media Photographers they have a 'pocket' release and an app depending on how you think you may want to use the photo someday.


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

> Btw, I am in a black and white film class so I won't know if I captured the shot until I develop the film. (that's part of the challenge).



And yes, getting a decisive moment on film can be challenging because you can't chimp and try again right then and there, or 'spray and pray' and hope one of them comes out. Thus, timing is even more important, and so is learning how to observe and predict.

But it can be done.




Day 213 - A brief flirtation by limrodrigues, on Flickr




Day 220 - Hopping by limrodrigues, on Flickr

I wanted this guy looking down and expected him to move or look up at any second. As it happens, he wasn't moving at all, so I had a chance to try two more angles, but the first one was the best anyway:



Hamlet by limrodrigues, on Flickr


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## WhisperingTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

I don't ask permission if its something that I can take without them really noticing or without my getting too close - I took a picture of a utility worker on a pole the other day.  I didn't see any reason to interrupt his job just to ask if I could snap a quick picture.

The girl on the swing, I did have to walk up and pretty much be right there so I asked her before I started snapping photos.

I saw a man on a riding mower the other day mowing the grass in front of an old country church - I love the look of churches like this.  I thought he had a good form and I liked the church in the back ground.  I got out of the car, camera in hand and he immediately stopped what he was doing and asked what I was doing.  I told him about my class and my assignment, promised the pic would not be used anywhere besides my class and he said "please don't take my picture".  So I got in my car and left.


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## WhisperingTurtle (Oct 10, 2014)

At the park the kids are all big hams, the kids aren't as self conscious as the parents but I am trying to get a bit of variety, not all kids on swings.


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## Derrel (Oct 10, 2014)

Every camera has its own lag time. Modern cameras are mostly quite fast. You get used to your camera's exact lag time, and then start refining your timing and reflexes. Here's an easy way to hone your timing and reflexes. Spend about 10 minutes a day, shooting photos where a subject is visible through an opening of some type: chain link fence, window, the space between two parked cars, whatever. Shoot single-frame advance photos, where any subject appears in one,single,small,specific location in the frame. The easiest example is the parked cars, shooting people as they are visible in between parked cars.

A more common, real-world issue is "heel lift"; when you shoot walking people, if the rear heel is off the ground, they look as if they are walking, moving, in motion. When both heels are flat on the ground, they look "stopped", in  manner of speaking.

The kid on a swingset at the top of her arc...yes, that is a decisive, defined moment. So is the very top of a jump, like at the tip-off in basketball.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 10, 2014)

vintagesnaps said:


> Try finding a phone booth Vince! lol not a bad idea though. Gary you might be good at zone focusing, I can't guesstimate distance worth a nickel! (well I can if it involves an inch or a yard since I do needlework).
> 
> I agree with Leonore, do some watching. It doesn't have to be people, it could be birds, etc., I was shadow watching the other day, a pattern on a brick wall, and watched and waited as it moved til the 'lightbulb' goes on that tells you, that's it! - that's a moment to capture.
> 
> ...


They don't make phone booths anymore? [emoji33][emoji16][emoji13] ok skip the phone booth lol


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> They don't make phone booths anymore? [emoji33][emoji16][emoji13] ok skip the phone booth lol



No, and it makes me sad. What's Superman supposed to do now?


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## CameraClicker (Oct 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > They don't make phone booths anymore? [emoji33][emoji16][emoji13] ok skip the phone booth lol
> ...


Cell phones killed the phone booth market before killing the P&S market.


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

CameraClicker said:


> Cell phones killed the phone booth market before killing the P&S market.



Yes, I know. I watched it happen.


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## gsgary (Oct 10, 2014)

Lovely colours in that first shot


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## vintagesnaps (Oct 10, 2014)

I don't know, but I think Superman is going to have a hard time squeezing into a smartphone case.

It's not so much taking a picture, it's a matter of how recognizable the subject is and how you want to use the photo. I think it takes knowing how to interact with people you encounter and figuring out what to do in various situations.

With the church it's probably private property and up to them. Some things don't work out so it takes finding another opportunity (which can sometimes be disappointing but so it goes).


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## Designer (Oct 10, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> I seem to struggle with figuring out what looks like a good photo.  I never would have thought the geese worked for this assignment but he really liked it.



The photo of the geese is not very good, but it has the fourth goose just leaving the frame, which is probably the thing that he likes.  

Remember; there are other elements that comprise your photograph, such as form, line, balance, etc. which all have something to do with how successful you photo is.  

Now to me, the ball rolling down is going to enter the decisive moment just as the ball touches the very last bit of slide and in the next split second will fly off into the air.

I guess if I were going to try to capture that moment, I would get the camera down to the level of the slide, and closer, and keep rolling the ball and shooting until I got just he exact instant that it was at the end of the slide.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 10, 2014)

CameraClicker said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > Vince.1551 said:
> ...


What if I can't afford a cell phone and needed to make a call on the streets?


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> What if I can't afford a cell phone and needed to make a call on the streets?



SOL, I guess 

There ARE still pay phones. But I haven't seen a full-on phone booth in ages. Just the half ones.

After Hurricane Sandy, cell phone reception was almost impossible for many people, or they couldn't charge their phones, so there were lines at the pay phones on the street. The problem was that people under a certain age had never used them and had no idea how to make a call.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > What if I can't afford a cell phone and needed to make a call on the streets?
> ...


True true

There was a time I was distributing portable mobile chargers for phones and the response I've got from people was, "why do I need one? I could always charge my phone in my car or at home"

Point is you'll never know when you needed 
it. Well, that was history 


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## CameraClicker (Oct 10, 2014)

limr said:


> Vince.1551 said:
> 
> 
> > What if I can't afford a cell phone and needed to make a call on the streets?
> ...


There used to be a pay phone at the local MacDonald's, but it was removed.  I have no idea where there is a pay phone now.


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

We have one on campus but it doesn't work.

Hang on, let me see if I can find something...


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

Ah, there it is. Forgive the quality - it's a crappy cell phone snap of an instant film print (Fujifilm Instax 210 - the wide format.) It was taken this year, so yes - people still use pay phones. At least in NYC.

Incidentally, it's also an example of how NOT to capture a decisive moment. (There was an interaction going on between the man on the phone, his dog, and the bike delivery guy next to him. I was too late. And then that dude on the right photobombed.)


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## snowbear (Oct 10, 2014)

Remember when the phone boots had phone books in them?


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## limr (Oct 10, 2014)

snowbear said:


> Remember when the phone boots had phone books in them?



Yup.


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## Designer (Oct 11, 2014)

snowbear said:


> Remember when the phone boots had phone books in them?


Usually the pages I wanted had been torn out.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 11, 2014)

Here is my suggestion.

Go somewhere that the same things happen over and over. A playground where a child goes down the slide every few minutes. A shop where a clerk makes a sale every few minutes.

Then, watch and think about it. At some point or points in the cycle the elements may fall in to place and, for an instant, there is a photograph. Not a snap of a thing which is occurring, but a photograph. The graphical elements, the masses of tone, and, yes, the event, the personal byplay, all fall in to place.

Take that picture the next time it goes by.

The ideal is to take that picture when it's not happening over and over, when it happens just once in a fleeting moment. That's hard. Doing it as I have described is much easier, and may prove a stepping stone. Maybe not.

I'm not much of a street photog. But I have made a handful of decent moments.


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## Borad (Oct 11, 2014)

I wouldn't feel guilty about staging something in a case like this unless I was instructed not to.


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## TCampbell (Oct 11, 2014)

Borad said:


> I wouldn't feel guilty about staging something in a case like this unless I was instructed not to.



Posed photos of a decisive moment usually look like they're posed (people who aren't professional actors are usually lousy actors and even some of the professional actors are lousy actors.)  But there are photographers who will sometimes _provoke_ the reaction they want...  take for example when Yousuf Karsh stole Winston Churchill's cigar and captured the immortalized image of the Winston Church "scowl".   See:  The Day Winston Churchill Lost His Cigar | At the Smithsonian | Smithsonian

The point is... the shot wasn't posed... the photographer took advantage of a "reaction" that he got.  Had he taken the same shot a few moments earlier or later he likely wouldn't have managed to get the same impact.

Use your human experience to recognize when something of significance is about to happen.  If you're attending a wedding and the officiant proclaims to the groom "you may kiss the bride" you KNOW a kiss is about to happen.  Timing that shot so that you capture the kiss... and not two seconds before the kiss nor two seconds after the kiss... that would be a "decisive moment".

Here's a glass artisan making a Christmas ornament.  A moment earlier and the shears wouldn't be in the shot... a moment later and the ornament would be sitting there all by itself.  I wanted this shot *just* as the artisan is nipping the thread of hot glass.  The point is... I knew he was about to do this and I waited for it.




Ornament by Tim Campbell1, on Flickr

Just _any_ moment won't do... in the timeline, there are some moments at which snapping the shot will be more impactful.  Imagine you were filming a movie... but had to pull "one frame" out of the film to use as as still photo... which "frame" would you grab?  That best-looking frame is typically the "decisive moment".   

If you're shooting baseball, do you want the runner halfway between 3rd base and home plate... or the runner returning to the dugout?  You _probably_ want the shot where the runner is sliding into home-plate while the ball is being thrown to the catcher and the umpire is making the call... _that's_ the shot where everything is happening and a story unfolds.


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## gsgary (Oct 12, 2014)

Borad said:


> I wouldn't feel guilty about staging something in a case like this unless I was instructed not to.


I would


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## sashbar (Oct 12, 2014)

gsgary said:


> Borad said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't feel guilty about staging something in a case like this unless I was instructed not to.
> ...


I would not feel guilty, because with street photography there are no rules set in stone, and we all know about one or two famous street images of the last century that were actually staged.
But the thing is, as a hobbyist I take images for myself more than for anyone else and cheating myself is a bit pointless. A staged scene has no point and meaning compared to the real moment of life, captured by a camera to live forever. It is as hollow as an electronic cigarette, a non-alcohol  vine and a promise made by the politician.


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## gsgary (Oct 12, 2014)

There is no need to stage your shots for this project just go out in town and you will find lots to shoot, here one of mine from the weekend


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## Braineack (Oct 12, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> CameraClicker said:
> 
> 
> > limr said:
> ...


Who's fault is that?


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2014)

I suggest that a decisive moment is a scene caught in transition into another state where that transition is interesting in itself because of content or structure but is usually unseen because it is so transient.
Of the 4 by Gary A, #4 seems to fit the bill the most because of the interesting composition of the arms and the stillness of the ball in space.






I think TCampbell's is actually an instant too soon. What would have been great is catching the molten glass as it slipped down after being caught, the reall beauty of the glass being acted on by gravity which we never see.






limr's day 220 is an interesting moment as the person defies gravity - and we see it.


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## Borad (Oct 12, 2014)

My staged photo would be the birth of an animal with a little kid who I instruct to point at the genitals when the animal's hind legs are raised for sexing.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

One of the many many things in life that fascinate and irritate me is how many people claim HCB as an inspiration, and chatter on about The Decisive Moment, who have clearly never looked at HCB's photos.

Sure, they can recognize and name many of them, but they've never really looked.

Here is an exercise: collect all the definitions of The Decisive Moment given in this thread. Then go get a handful of Cartier-Bresson's photos.

See which definitions apply to which photos.

Here is what you will find:

The photo is almost never about a transition or an event. It's never about capturing the essence of whatever is happening.

Often, nothing much is happening at all. If something is happening, usually it is unfolding over time and the moment in the photo is of no special importance within the event.

So, what did he mean?

Everyone always leaves out the important bit, the bit about forms.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

Who cares what Cartier-Bresson thinks. A meaningless photo is a meaningless photo. Could you imagine if he posted a photo here for C&C ... awkward LOL


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

The point is that lots of people care, and claim to know.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

Probably Cartier-Bessons in the making ... Who knows ... And why not? If people ignores the general rules of photography why should anyone care about Bresson's definition 


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## Borad (Oct 12, 2014)

On a detailed webpage on the decisive moment, the author says:

"...here is another excerpt, found elsewhere in the preface, which most succinctly summarizes Cartier-Bresson’s idea of _decisive moment_:_ '_To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression.'"

So a landscape wouldn't qualify, I guess. I think it's a decisive moment to the extent that timing is involved.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

Many snap shots, especially those taken within the family, are 'decisive moments' type of shots. And btw Bresson took many snapshots ...

And, forms are basically your composition in fine art paintings which is still composition. Basically reinventing the wheel.


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## The_Traveler (Oct 12, 2014)

Google Image Result for http://www.laurencemillergallery.com/Images/hcblevitt_main.jpg

Google Image Result for http://lamonomagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Enri-cartier-bresson-20.jpg

Google Image Result for http://bps.bpsmembersonly.com/files/2014/06/41.jpg

Google Image Result for http://desartsuk.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/photo-by-henri-cartier-bresson.jpg

yeah, you're wrong


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

Borad said:


> On a detailed webpage on the decisive moment, the author says:
> 
> "...here is another excerpt, found elsewhere in the preface, which most succinctly summarizes Cartier-Bresson’s idea of _decisive moment_:_ '_To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression.'"
> 
> So a landscape wouldn't qualify, I guess. I think it's a decisive moment to the extent that timing is involved.


Why landscapes wouldn't qualify? Every passing second is an event. Seasons change and so does the land and thereby landscapes 


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

Add usual I can't even tell what your point is, Vince.

Who's wrong, Lew?


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

Point is Bresson did not 'invent' the term 'decisive moment'. However he wants to phrase it. 


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## Borad (Oct 12, 2014)

Vince.1551 said:


> Why landscapes wouldn't qualify? Every passing second is an event. Seasons change and so does the land and thereby landscapes



Yeah, it's not a good definition. He's describing photography. There were a lot of other quotes by him but none is clearly his definition of the decisive moment. The OPs teacher probably explained what he meant and the OP needs to tell us.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

He kinda did, actually. Modulo some translation details and confusion.

There's a very definite thing, which HCB absolutely invented, which had been commonly called in English The Decisive Moment, based on a translation of another phrase in French.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

His quotes are generalized statements which photographers before him would had embraced. And photographers who had not heard of him would had embraced as well. 


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

No, Vince. You're just wrong.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 12, 2014)

I disagree 


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## Gary A. (Oct 12, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The point is that lots of people care, and claim to know.


I know.


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## Gary A. (Oct 12, 2014)

Henri also said “Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”. Which hasn't any relationship to the Decisive Moment, but there you go.


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## Derrel (Oct 12, 2014)

The phrase, "The decisive moment," was legally defined by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, in the 1964 decision in the case _*Jacobellis v. Ohio*_. Justice Stewart said an exact definition of the decisive moment was difficult to arrive at but that, "I know it when I see it."

No, o, wait,wait...that was obscenity he was defining. Nevermind

Source: I know it when I see it - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## photoguy99 (Oct 12, 2014)

In colloquial usage the phrases 'street photography' and 'decisive moment' generally mean 'my photos, which I fondly imagine are kind of like HCB's'

In reality the vast majority of people who think they're following in Bresson's footsteps don't even grasp what he was doing, because they are camera enthusiasts rather than artists. Those that do grasp it generally can't do it.

It's extremely hard. Like orders of magnitude harder than most picture taking. Almost anyone can be taught to take, say, senior portraits, 500px ready landscapes, or imitations of common fashion styles. Almost nobody can do that thing HCB did.

The fact that in colloquial usage these are meaningless noises doesn't mean that they didn't mean something pretty definite and clear, once upon a time.


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## gsgary (Oct 13, 2014)

Borad said:


> On a detailed webpage on the decisive moment, the author says:
> 
> "...here is another excerpt, found elsewhere in the preface, which most succinctly summarizes Cartier-Bresson’s idea of _decisive moment_:_ '_To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression.'"
> 
> So a landscape wouldn't qualify, I guess. I think it's a decisive moment to the extent that timing is involved.


Didn't I write that earlier [emoji34]


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> In colloquial usage the phrases 'street photography' and 'decisive moment' generally mean 'my photos, which I fondly imagine are kind of like HCB's'
> 
> In reality the vast majority of people who think they're following in Bresson's footsteps don't even grasp what he was doing, because they are camera enthusiasts rather than artists. Those that do grasp it generally can't do it.



That's a sweeping statement 



> It's extremely hard. Like orders of magnitude harder than most picture taking. Almost anyone can be taught to take, say, senior portraits, 500px ready landscapes, or imitations of common fashion styles. Almost nobody can do that thing HCB did.



Likewise many people can do Bresson style photography. Just because they are not Bresson they don't get any credit for their work. Like I say ... If Bresson posted his shots here for C&C guess what would happen...



> The fact that in colloquial usage these are meaningless noises doesn't mean that they didn't mean something pretty definite and clear, once upon a time.



As with 99.9% of photos taken...

Perhaps I should make it clear that I've nothing against Bresson's style. My point is that style is not unique. Too much publicity!

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## gsgary (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> In colloquial usage the phrases 'street photography' and 'decisive moment' generally mean 'my photos, which I fondly imagine are kind of like HCB's'
> 
> In reality the vast majority of people who think they're following in Bresson's footsteps don't even grasp what he was doing, because they are camera enthusiasts rather than artists. Those that do grasp it generally can't do it.
> 
> ...


I can't find a thread started by you where you have posted your work all I could find was bullshit


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 13, 2014)

Lol


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

I've said many times that I don't post photos publicly on the internet any more.

Luckily, you can judge what a man says by reading the words.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 13, 2014)

A picture speaks more then a thousand words [emoji23] gotta just let it out lol


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## The_Traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

Facts speak for themselves, opinions and ideas need  buttressing.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

Are you proposing, Lew, that my own photos would somehow buttress my opinions and ideas (well, really, my repetition of other people's, I say virtually nothing on this forum that isn't pretty much directly lifted from people who know more than I) about other people's photos?

I don't see how on earth that would work.

But perhaps you're talking to someone else.


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## gsgary (Oct 13, 2014)

Why are you on here if you won't post photos what is the point


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm taking about photography on a photo forum. Crazy, huh?

I've been over this a bunch of times. Use the search.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 13, 2014)

Lol


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## sashbar (Oct 13, 2014)

Gary A. said:


> Henri also said “Sharpness is a bourgeois concept”. Which hasn't any relationship to the Decisive Moment, but there you go.



That was my anti-bourgeois decisive moment


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## The_Traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

If I go into a hospital to get a diagnosis and some random person dressed in white tells me something, I don't put much, if any, weight on what they say unless they have credibility in some way.
You can talk all you want but once what you say about photography devolves into strictly opinion then it loses much impact.

I think that my opinion has whatever credibility it does for two reasons; first I've been critiquing pictures and showing edits for a while and the comments seem to make sense and I actually put some effort into it. Second, I post pictures.
I post pictures, not because I am looking for help, but because I want to bolster the weight of my opinion with evidence that I have some expertise, ability and taste.

You haven't been around enough to have built up that credibility and to think that your possible genius and artistic temperament is immediately apparent from text is unrealistic on your part.
I did do a search and your answers are generally single lines, often seeming to imply that you have the real knowledge and you're just going to share this bit with us.

The feeling I get from your posts, and perhaps others do also, is that you feel yourself somehow above the rest of us and are just condescending to share some time with us.
Well this place has a culture and you aren't buying into it.
You may be worthwhile to listen to but I can't tell yet.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 13, 2014)

Well said Lew


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

The fact that I do not give critique, do not post photos online, and do not demonstrate editing technique is irrelevant to the verifiable fact that I know a great deal more about HCB and the meaning of the phrase The Decisive Moment than many other contributors to this thread.

Verifying it is work, because the internet is awash in wrongness in this case. A simple Google search won't work. You've actually got to dig, and to challenge your own preconceptions. 

Me posting some photos would not change anyone's mind. The very idea is ludicrous. You wish me to post photos so that you can judge them as inferior to your own, and then make the violently illogical leap that therefore you are right and that offensive fellow is wrong. Phew. Comfortable world-view restored.

Not playing.


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## Gary A. (Oct 13, 2014)

I cannot think of a good reason not to post one's images in a photography forum. While I recognize that the ability to capture an exceptional image has nothing to do with photographic knowledge ... I, for one, would place greater currency in a person's opinion and judgement, if they had a boatload of exceptional photographs than if all they had was mediocre images.


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## Derrel (Oct 13, 2014)

SO...WHAT ABOUT THE EARLY HCB book, the collection of his photographs, the book with the title that basically translated to "Photos taken on the run"? I assume that HCB had at least some "say" in the title of his first published book of photographs, and that he saw himself as a man who shot, "on the run" back in the era when the 4x5 press camera and even the 12-shot 120 rollfilm twin-lens reflex cameras, and flashbulbs, were pretty much the normal "pro type gear".

I am not an expert on HCB, but I do know that "the decisive moment," has been associated with him, but I am wondering if that might not just have been a translation error, something that came about due to the honest mistakes of others, press and reporters and writers, and which snowballed and grew on its own, the way urban legends and folklore do, and if perhaps what HCB thought he was doing was something ELSE, entirely, at least for his first 20 years or so of working?

HCB's contact sheets for some very famous shots have been revealed; looking at them convinced me that he was in most cases, more into persevering, rather than one-shot-lucky, as so many people assume. He "worked" regular street situations, relying on the Leica's small size and long rolls of film, rather than shooting one, two, or three sheets of film with a HUGE graphic 4x5 sheet-film camera...his contacts show a lot of utter CRAP surrounding famous shots...


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## The_Traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> The fact that I do not give critique, do not post photos online, and do not demonstrate editing technique is irrelevant to the verifiable fact that I know a great deal more about HCB and the meaning of the phrase The Decisive Moment than many other contributors to this thread.
> 
> Verifying it is work, because the internet is awash in wrongness in this case. A simple Google search won't work. You've actually got to dig, and to challenge your own preconceptions.
> 
> ...



What we want is a discussion among community 'friends' and peers relieved by the occasional jocularity.
What would happen if you participated by posting and critiquing is that you would actually be contributing to the worth of the site and you would be seen as accepting the culture here and adding worth.
As it is you seem to want to be the visiting expert, enlightening the masses. 
To be honest, if I wanted expertise, I would go to people I know and/or respect.
For fun and discussion, I'll stay here with people that don't think themselves better or smarter than me or, if they do, respect me enough not to show it.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

Always the comedian, eh, Lew? That was pretty good, I admit.

Since I've been accused of excessive brevity, I will take that as license to indulge myself. Whatever you want to call it, HCB was doing a particular thing. What was that thing?

The money quote we've seen a few times in this thread:

"To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition [...] of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression."

What could he mean be the last bit? You can simply ask around people who understand this stuff. Or you can work it out yourself. As follows.

The key elements are these:

Henri was trained as a painter in the early 20th century
He had, therefore, a grasp on Victorian ideas of composition.
He was a bit of a surrealist.
He loved a good visual joke.
These are facts. You can probably get this off Wikipedia. If you wish these ideas even a little you'll stay to see them leaping out of the frame in HCB's photos. He was not subtle. It's all there in big obvious chunks.

So his conception of the configuration of forms that give an event its proper expression was, it is reasonable to guess, painterly, given his training. The moment at which you press the shutter is NOT necessarily:


The moment before the bomb explodes
The moment the man kisses the girl
The moment the girl turns and leaves him forever
Etc
Indeed there is no particular reason that the moment of the shutter press should be a particularly special moment for the people in the scene. Ten seconds earlier, a minute later, might well be all the same to them, or even a moment of greater import.

No. The moment you press the shutter is the moment during which the frame contains a painting of boys at play, of a nation at war, of a man behind a train station. The moment is essentially graphical, not human.

Indeed, if you photograph the moment of greatest human weight, you have a photograph of an instant. You are less likely to have a photograph which expresses the event as a whole, since your photo is so firmly about the instant. It's not a picture of a romance, it's a picture of a kiss. It's not a photo of boys at play, it's a photo of a boy falling.

This is all obvious once you have the background in Victorian composition and in surrealism, once you look at the photos.

Or, as I say, go ask an expert.

The common misconception is the the decisive moment is the human moment. It is not. It is a graphical moment. It's about forms and their expression.


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## gsgary (Oct 13, 2014)

Just been going through my shots from the weekend and got this decisive moment a bit like HCB's but my staircase is the woods


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## The_Traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Always the comedian, eh, Lew? That was pretty good, I admit.
> 
> Since I've been accused of excessive brevity, I will take that as license to indulge myself. Whatever you want to call it, HCB was doing a particular thing. What was that thing?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the effort but you've chosen to stay out of the game.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

Have I just been excommunicated by the Pope of TPF? oh dear.


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## Gary A. (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> Have I just been excommunicated by the Pope of TPF? oh dear.


Yeah, make fun of Lew. At least Lew posts his images. That takes a lot more balls than what I've seen from you.

If you're such a know-it-all ... and we are such schleps ... show us some images. Show us how to walk-the-walk ... show us how to apply all that stuff you talk about into something real. I believe that most of us, are here to learn and share. So how about some sharing. Or are you just all talk ...


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

What? I've been over this. You're just ranting at this point. Consider taking a break and a few deep breaths.

I'm talking about what a phrase means. There's no 'turning that in to something'.
If I were explaining 'protein folding' would you want to see me bake a cake?


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## Gary A. (Oct 13, 2014)

Avoiding all my points by describing my post as a rant, fools no one.

I just review the six pages of this thread. While you have made some very poignant and thought provoking statements, nowhere did I discover any reason(s) posted by you explaining why you do not post your images.

We're not discussing protein folding. We're discussing photography and in particular why you do not you show examples of your photographic work on a photographic forum. You come off as condescending and arrogant. I think many of us here are curious about the roots of your arrogance. Do you have a portfolio of exceptional images ... by comparison are we mere children with our photographic skills? Show us some images which will not only affirm that your opinion comes from expertise but also provide direct guidance for improving our images.

A couple more points, The Decisive Moment is a phrase attributed to Henri Cartier-Bresson. You stated that Henri was pursuing form primarily not critical timing. But over time that phase has come to mean capturing that split second of when everything comes together. While you can argue that Henri meant when all the forms are just right ... in todays world and most likely for the challenge presented to the OP, The Decisive Moment means timing, when everything comes together for that instant in time. Please correct me if I misunderstood your statements.

You also stated that Decisive Moment = Street in Henri parlay. I tend to agree with you that that is entirely probably. So I shall post some examples of my Street photography and I challenge to to post images of your Street photography and we'll discuss Henri, Street, The Decisive Moment and yours and my images. As you seem to have much historical expertise regarding Henri Cartier-Bresson ... I will do the best I can to match a similar level of technology. My images will be 35mm format, Tri-X, all mechanical camera.

#1





#2





#3





#4





#5





#6





On the flip side, you use the internet according to you code and as such, who am I and we to challenge that code. I get that. And while I understand where you are coming from from ... I don't completely agree with that position.

Gary

PS- I don't see how baking a cake has any relevance to protein folding. (I have nothing against cakes.) I find protein folding quite remarkable and the ability to call and string particular proteins into long sequences in a timely fashion, is fascinating.    
G


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## The_Traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

photoguy99 said:


> What? I've been over this. You're just ranting at this point. Consider taking a break and a few deep breaths.
> 
> I'm talking about what a phrase means. There's no 'turning that in to something'.
> If I were explaining 'protein folding' would you want to see me bake a cake?



I think perhaps you're misunderstanding - intentionally or not.

No one cares about what you actually say, I think it's the point that you come across as quite a bit of a bit know-it-all and condescending and your reasons why you don't post and critique insinuate that you are just past or above the need for all that. 

You want to stand on the sidelines and talk big about strategy without ever taking part in the game and what you are getting now is the push back.
We've had people like that here before and, to be honest, they had exactly the same reasons.

Perhaps you were/are a fantastic photographer and know a great deal, but if BS is all you are willing to contribute, well BS is 10 cents a truckload and we're pretty much all full up here.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

Gary A, if you want to know why I don't post pictures online, PM me. I've talked about it before, but it's wildly off topic and I'm not going to discuss it here.

I never said, or at any rate intended to say, that HCB didn't pursue critical timing. Such a statement would be absurd and if I did make it through some misphrasing or a typo, I take it back.

Lew, I think you're actually a pretty OK guy, but in the first place you of all people calling me out for being a pompous ass is hilarity itself (we're BOTH pompous asses, after all) and in the second place I don't care how you think the game should be played. I got my ideas and you got yours.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 13, 2014)

I didn't mean to start an argument.  What my teacher is looking for are photos that capture a moment that is in flux.

With landscape pictures I could take a photo of the landscape and tomorrow another person could take a picture of the landscape and although there might be some subtle changes, it will still be the same landscape.  A picture of the White House taken by me or by any other person on just about any given day, its still going to be the White House.

With something that's in a state of flux or movement, if you don't take the photo at the right time, you miss the photo. The photo will not be the same five minutes from now, sometimes not even five seconds from now.

That's the essence of what my teacher is trying to get us to capture on film.   Since its not digital, it is a bit trickier since we won't know if we caught that moment until we develop the film.


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## photoguy99 (Oct 13, 2014)

We sort of got sidetracked. Don't mind us. I hope you got some useful ideas!


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## Derrel (Oct 13, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> I didn't mean to start an argument.  What my teacher is looking for are photos that capture a moment that is in flux.
> 
> With landscape pictures I could take a photo of the landscape and tomorrow another person could take a picture of the landscape and although there might be some subtle changes, it will still be the same landscape.  A picture of the White House taken by me or by any other person on just about any given day, its still going to be the White House.
> 
> ...



That makes sense; there are MANY subjects that can be well-captured at any time, and a pleasing, acceptable photograph made of the subject or scene. Take say, the U.S. Capitol Building, or the St. Louis Arch for example--either of those two landmarks can be, and have been, photographed at all hours of the day, for days and years on end, and many good photos have been made. Not everything is highly time-sensitive. Some things however, really are time-sensitive, and the quality of a photo made in some situations really does come down to the shutter having been clicked at a time when something of particular interest was happening. Some photos are ABOUT "time" and about "moments", while many other photos are more about "the scene", or "the object itself".


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## Gary A. (Oct 13, 2014)

I apologize for contributing to the off-topic discussion.


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 14, 2014)

Gary I really like the photos you posted, thank you for sharing them.


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## Gary A. (Oct 14, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> Gary I really like the photos you posted, thank you for sharing them.


Thanks.


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## Vince.1551 (Oct 14, 2014)

You can judge me and I'll still say Gary's photos are way better then lots of Bresson's photos 


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## sashbar (Oct 14, 2014)

PhotoTurtle said:


> I didn't mean to start an argument.  What my teacher is looking for are photos that capture a moment that is in flux.
> 
> With landscape pictures I could take a photo of the landscape and tomorrow another person could take a picture of the landscape and although there might be some subtle changes, it will still be the same landscape.  A picture of the White House taken by me or by any other person on just about any given day, its still going to be the White House.
> 
> ...



One easy practical way to do what your teacher asks for is to find a street poster/advert etc that you can juxtapose against a pedestrian. It is easy even with a film camera, because the only object that moves is a pedestrian. So all you need is - find this kind a background, stand there with your camera ready (put your focus to manual and focus on the place where your target will appear) and wait for someone to pass by. Here in this picture we see the poster girl's hand pointing to the bald head of an ageing man, which is kind of funny (not really, I know, but you got the idea). the red letter F (what the hell does that men in this pic?) looks like it is emanating from the man's head. Your timing should be spot on, but this particular kind of a shot is very easy due to the highly predictable movement. Your teacher would be satisfied, I think.






If you want to try something a bit more complicated, you can introduce another person in the composition to have a triangle - a hand, and two men. Triangles are very important for compositions, you could ask your teacher to explain if you have a chance. So here we have another shot with two men, each moving in his his own direction with some determination, completely ignoring each other. But the hand for some reasom has selected the guy on the right.. Looks like she has selected her victim. So this shot is basically the same as above, plus another guy placed quite nicely. Note that his head is on the white background, between the black edge to the left and the hand to the right. Full separation of subjects and contrasting backgrounds in that kind of a composition are very desirable. We also see some additional details in this shot - like the man's shadow, the poster girls that look like witches and a very helpful red/black edge diagonal, pointing at the man. So all in all the second shot is better, but is a little bit trickier to capture. The word "jigsaw" is often used by street shooters to describe this kind of compositions btw. 
So good luck.





And btw, you are absolutely right about the landscapes - they are all the same - yesterday, today, tomorrow. Is there any point of trying to capture something that does not even bother to move?


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## PhotoTurtle (Oct 14, 2014)

Sashbar thank you for the idea, I will have to think of where I see signage that would allow for those kinds of shots.


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