# If You Have Nothing to Say, Don't Say Anything at All



## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

This is going to be a little bit of a rant, so be warned.

I often run into one-line comments like "It's Boring" or "I don't get it". I'd encourage everyone to avoid these kinds of critiques. First of all, they're not really critiques. There is no critical thought in announcing your first impressions. A critique should be removed from your personal biases, it should focus on only technique and artistic merit - not your own limitations in appreciation.

Positive one-liners are also annoying, but at least they offer some level of support. "Nice colors" and "Great Job!" type pats on the back don't really convey what a photographer is doing right, or speak of the image entirely, but at the same time I don't think this is really a bad thing, but it'd be much more helpful if we could go into a little more detail about what works and what doesn't.

But negative one liners are just selfish and arrogant. When someone takes a photo, they obviously saw something in the subject that she or he felt was worthwhile and interesting. It's not up to us as the audience to question the validity of the photographers ability to determine a worthwhile subject, rather, it is up to us to appreciate the photographer's world view.

Naturally this isn't always conveyed adequately. But if this is the case, then how specifically should be discussed, rather than spouting off worthless one liners expressing a rather limited opinion.

Now I know that not everyone here has the technical and/or artistic background to relate these things. And that's fine. But maybe such people should spend some time reading other's posts or professional art critics responses in art journals and magazines before posting critiques - or in the very least think "will this comment help me understand the photo/will it help the photographer improve their skills as an artist and craftsperson" before posting.

I don't mean to come across as "anti-newbie".


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## Robin_Usagani (Jul 1, 2013)

nice post.


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

its not "anti newbie" to try and encourage well thought out C&C on pictures.


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## KenC (Jul 1, 2013)

Agree completely, and thanks for fighting the good fight - most of us have given up


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## Ilovemycam (Jul 1, 2013)

Sometimes one word says it all...snapshot. 

This is all subject to personal opinion. Many people love the work of boring, snapshot shooters like Shore and Eggelston. I hate the snapshot shooters myself.


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## cowleystjames (Jul 1, 2013)

Boring....... Sorry, couldn't resist 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## ronlane (Jul 1, 2013)

I understand your points and totally agree that negative one liners are crappy and sometimes it's better to say nothing at all. However, the person posting a reply was 
moved by the photo as well. (whether good or bad) So the photo stirred up emotion for that person. I know that there are some that post just for "post count".

It sucks getting any negative feedback on a photo but even a "it's boring' or "I don't get it" could make you stop and think about the photo and ask more questions, which can help you improve.

The thing that gets me more is when I post a photo and get 100 views and no responses at all. It may be that they are technically fine but they stir no emotion to have someone comment, therefore, I don't know how to improve on them. At that point you're subject to falling into a trap of not getting any better.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Ilovemycam said:


> This is all subject to personal opinion. Many people love the work of boring, snapshot shooters like Shore and Eggelston. I hate the snapshot shooters myself.



I am not sure I'd call Eggleston a snapshooter... not familiar with Shore.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

I attempt to give more detail, as long as it's within my knowledge base.  I do try to avoid giving advice on a photo if I don't yet have enough knowledge to give them the RIGHT advice.  I think providing more C&C than what I'm capable of would be a bad thing.  Sometimes, I will just say "Nice shot" simply because I like it... if there are things wrong with it that I didn't point out, it's because I don't yet have the experience to spot them and point them out.  

Now, if I see a portrait and the subject looks like a smurf, I'll leave some white balance pointers.  If I see a photo of a beautiful horse with a stop sign in the background, I'll note that it's a distraction that could be left out... as long as it's something I'm familiar with or have been educated in thus far, I'll do my best to say something useful.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

exactly. This is why I don't leave a lot of critique, especially on more commercial studio portrait work. Sometimes I'll see a fashion photo or something that I can comment on the artistic end of things. 

But your run of the mill family portrait, I usually stay out of.


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Nice rant, unpopular! Atta boy!


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

hey. someone's gotta do it.


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## Mike_E (Jul 1, 2013)

Ilovemycam said:


> Sometimes one word says it all...snapshot.
> 
> This is all subject to personal opinion. Many people love the work of boring, snapshot shooters like Shore and Eggelston. I hate the snapshot shooters myself.




Then I'm afraid you will never be happy with the world, most photography is simply about capturing moments- a snapshot.

Snapshooters drive tech; let's face it, there simply aren't enough 'pro' shooters to to pay the manufacturers to invent and then develop all of the really great new cameras out there.  

Relax, enjoy life, there is absolutely nothing wrong with helping someone to perfect snap shooting.  There is even a good argument that educating the 'masses' on what really good photography is helps the industry in that an educated consumer is a discriminating consumer.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Personally, I believe perception of the viewer counts for something whether they have experience or not. If that weren't the case, nobody would spend any time admiring photos. Now myself, I'd much rather hear what's wrong with or what could be improved upon in my work... that's not to say I don't appreciate someone telling me "Hey, nice shot"... just that I want to learn and I value good feedback. So I see where you're coming from... I agree, negative one liners are garbage... they don't do anything but run someone down... positive one liners however do provide support, as you mentioned... and on this forum, with so many people of different experience levels posting, it's still a learning experience for both photographer and viewer.. and enjoyable one at that. I might say "Nice shot" because I like it and haven't yet developed the skills to see the finer details or flaws... but then someone with years more experience comes behind me, points those out and suddenly I'VE been educated as well as the photographer.. if I hadn't gotten involved at all, I wouldn't have learned anything.


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

It's great when folks can elaborate their views in writing to give someone who's posted a more comprehensive and informative view or opinion of that which has been presented.

But basically telling people to shut the f**k up if they can't or don't do that, and instead summarize their views into a few words, is pure bulls**t.


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## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

Sometimes the poster has brought it on himself by a simple one-word plea: "Thoughts?"

WTH are we supposed to do with that?  

A few months ago some of us attempted to create a sticky giving new posters wanting C&C some guidelines as to what kinds of comments lead to better criticism, but it seemingly went nowhere.

Occasionally I see a photograph that is SO GOOD that all I can do is make words like; "very good" or some such.  This is not intended to shortchange the OP, just that I really don't have anything to add.

Then, there are photographs that are SO BAD that I get the distinct feeling we are being set up to see how many "good job" comments they can get on a crappy photo.  I am not talking about the ones where someone has experienced problems, and admits it, but just the all-too-familiar "Thoughts?" BS.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> But basically telling people to shut the f**k up if they can't or don't do that, and instead summarize their views into a few words, is pure bulls**t.



I guess I just don't have a lot of tolerance for people who choose not to improve their critical thinking abilities.

--

and I don't mean to discourage positive one-liners, not at all. but the negative ones are just totally useless.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Designer said:


> Sometimes the poster has brought it on himself by a simple one-word plea: "Thoughts?"



But then, at the same time, when someone goes into any amount of detail about what an image means to them they're hounded with idiotic pop photography lines like "a photo should stand on it's own without explanation!"

It's very hard to get honest feedback, especially when you're trying to do things outside the norm.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

I get where you're coming from with this thread.  I would agree with it insofar as to say that negative garbage has no place in it.  I think as long as it stays constructive, whether a positive one liner or a detailed critique with good information, everyone involved is going to learn something.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

I see images all the time that get "WOW... Great photo" from noobs, and I just shake my head. Not at the brevity of the comment, but the fact that they think it is a great photo! lol! It is an educational thing... if they can't see what it wrong with an image, how can they possibly say much about it?

Hopefully as they get more knowledge, they will be able to comment more intelligently, and verbosely! But telling them not to comment? Not really appropriate (although I do understand the sentiment!)


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

LOL @ the crop!
Portrait orientation!
Bad lighting!
terrible Posing!
just a snapshot!
WB is off!
Color is bad!
Read a book on photography!
Bin that one!
Etc Etc...

none of those "critiques" offer any insight whatsoever to help the OP with their picture. even if those issues are obvious to the person giving the C&C, if they were so obvious to the OP, they would have posted the picture with those corrections already done. 
IE: it does precious little good to scream TERRIBLE WB at the OP if the OP has no idea how to fix the WB, or even what to look for in proper WB. 
If you are giving C&C, and you feel yourself knowledgeable enough to critique a photo and point out what is wrong with it....then you should, in fact, be knowledgeable enough to offer some suggestions as to how the OP can correct the issues you found.
this is of course, just how I personally feel about people posting critique citing faults in a picture without offering assistance in the fixing of it.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 1, 2013)

Nice post.  I know that some people aren't really looking for a critique of their images but end up getting them anyway. Some posts are looking for a critique and when they don't get any responses they get upset, but for some of these images there is nothing wrong with the photos and a few words is all that can be said.  I will comment in the field I know best, but will make a short comment on a photo I do really like.

What does happen and it is along the lines of this thread is people that really think they know what they are talking about start to pass out suggestions, but they themselves don't have the skills to be offering the advice.  I will add suggestions based on my knowledge, and it's not always technical knowledge, as I have stated many time, I am not a technical photographer.  I usually offer simple fixes or observations that can be applied to help improve.  I will also comment if the photos are nothing more than happy snaps.  I don't candy coat comments, and I don't think it helps if people do, but I will try and give a good reason why, to bad if some people can't accept the comments, that's photo life, and it won't get easier.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

I've learned a long time ago in art school that the best way to learn about art is to discuss it. 

Critique I hink helps the critic understand photography more than it helps the photographer. This is why I also think having a good, productive dialog between the artist and the critic is very beneficial so that the photographer can better understand their own position. Unfortunately, people often see this as the photographer simply being overly defensive - to me this comes across as if critic's opinion is more valid than the artists, a kind of 'sit down and stfu' kind of approach to critique.


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > But basically telling people to shut the f**k up if they can't or don't do that, and instead summarize their views into a few words, is pure bulls**t.
> ...


Your statement that those who make less verbose comments have made a choice "not to  improve their critical thinking abilities" is a non sequitur; a logical fallacy, thereby violating the very idea of critical thinking itself.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

While I cannot deny that the statement was non sequitur, my point of this was to encourage critical analysis in critique. a critique by nature is critical, and therefor criticism which lacks critical analysis is not a critique. Since we're here for critique, and not the impulsive and bigoted viewpoints of casual observation, I don't see a role for such statements.

oh, and also Buckster...

An argument of hypocrisy is, in itself, fallacious. Two can play that game.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm a pretty sharp guy, despite being a blunt instrument for most of my adult life...  I know that if a photo looks nice to me, it may need some work under the scrutiny of someone with more experience.  I know that when I say what I can, based on my experience, which might be "Nice shot"... someobody MORE experienced is going to come along and give more useful C&C whether I thought it was nice or not.. and that's great.  It teaches me something as well and it improves my ability to not only comment but to take better photos myself.

I don't see it appropriate for me to leave a comment like "Nice shot, but I'm not that good... what do you pros think about this?  Is it total ****?"

I'm being dramatic, but the point being... I would rather comment on what I understand and let the more experienced people provide details about how somebody can improve.  If I DO have something I can comment on, I usually will.  But I don't try to pass myself off as being an expert on something that I'm not an expert on.

It would be like somebody telling a rookie partner of mine "If you get in trouble out there, take cover behind the door" .. when I know damn well it won't stop a bangers 9mm... it would be more appropriate for that person to tell the rookie "Stay safe"... a simple one liner that conveys a positive message without giving the wrong advice.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

And like I said, I really didn't mean to discourage "nice shot", there's no need to get too elaborate. But I think it does help to ask yourself what you see in it that you think makes it a nice shot and elaborate, even if it's something obvious.

There has to be SOME reason. It's nice to know what we've specifically done right.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> And like I said, I really didn't mean to discourage "nice shot", there's no need to get too elaborate. But I think it does help to ask yourself what you see in it that you think makes it a nice shot and elaborate, even if it's something obvious.
> 
> It's nice to know what we've specifically done right.



Ok, I get that and it's a good point.    I'll keep it in mind and elaborate on what I like, even if I don't see flaws.  No harm in that since someone else with more experience is going to provide the other side of it anyway.  Btw, I don't intend to offend with any of this... and I do appreciate the different perspectives.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Just remember, if a gun is pointed at you, grab a pillow


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> While I cannot deny that the statement was non sequitur, my point of this was to encourage critical analysis in critique.


I was providing critical analysis, a critique if you will, of your use of actual words.  You're welcome.



unpopular said:


> a critique by nature is critical, and therefor criticism which lacks critical analysis is not a critique.


That is your opinion and you're welcome to it.  A critique is not validated or invalidated based on the number of words or expansion of thought, nor on the experience or verbal abilities of the person making the critique.  It is, in its simplest form, an expressed opinion, and that can be done in a few words.



unpopular said:


> Since we're here for critique,


That assumption is unfounded.  *YOU* may be here for critique.  Others may also be here for critique.  But that doesn't mean that "we", everyone, is here for critique, either to give *OR* receive it.

 And my point, once again, is that telling anyone to shut up if they're not going to meet _*YOUR*_ expectations in leaving comments that go into enough detail for your liking, is bulls**t.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, going back to time in the military, no need for a pillow.

"Don't draw enemy fire, that's what your teammates are for"

EDIT: Which of kind of went hand in hand with "Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you."


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

The idea that offering a C&C on a TPF photo post will "improve one's critical thinking skills" is patently ridiculous. I mean, come on man...that's just a ridiculous premise.

Negative one-liners are not helpful. But I think there's a place for brief, positive notes. If a photo has received a large number of views, but zero replies, I will often leave a brief, positive note, so as to let people know, "Hey, I saw your photo and liked it enough to leave a note." Now, since when I do that my "dialogue" is brief, will such a short message then reduce my critical thinking abilities because it was not a long, expansive, verbose, pretentious C&C??? lol

There are MANY reasons why brief, positive notes are more than adequate, and are perfectly appropriate. Again, you telling people to basically, as Buckster so eloquently put it "Shut the f**k up," unless they leave a long-winded C&C is...as you called it, "kind of a rant." And as I stated earlier, "Nice rant! Atta boy!"


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> The idea that offering a C&C on a TPF photo post will "improve one's critical thinking skills" is patently ridiculous. I mean, come on man...that's just a ridiculous premise.



My OP discussed learning how to offer a critique before doing so, not that a TPF post will "improve one's critical thinking skills".



> But I think there's a place for brief, positive notes.



I didn't really say that there wasn't, only that people ought to consider saying more than just a one liner.



> will such a short message then reduce my critical thinking abilities because it was not a long, expansive, verbose, pretentious C&C???



I didn't say anything about reduction.



> There are MANY reasons why brief, positive notes are more than adequate, and are perfectly appropriate. Again, you telling people to basically, as Buckster so eloquently put it "Shut the f**k up," unless they leave a long-winded C&C is...as you called it, "kind of a rant." And as I stated earlier, "Nice rant! Atta boy!"



And I also said nothing about "long-winded, [pretentious] C&C", either. Only something more than essentially "this sucks", I mean, if you don't know why it sucks then how can you be so certain that it does?


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> The idea that offering a C&C on a TPF photo post will "improve one's critical thinking skills" is patently ridiculous. I mean, come on man...that's just a ridiculous premise.
> 
> Negative one-liners are not helpful. But I think there's a place for brief, positive notes. If a photo has received a large number of views, but zero replies, I will often leave a brief, positive note, so as to let people know, "Hey, I saw your photo and liked it enough to leave a note." Now, since when I do that my "dialogue" is brief, will such a short message then reduce my critical thinking abilities because it was not a long, expansive, verbose, pretentious C&C??? lol
> 
> There are MANY reasons why brief, positive notes are more than adequate, and are perfectly appropriate. Again, you telling people to basically, as Buckster so eloquently put it "Shut the f**k up," unless they leave a long-winded C&C is...as you called it, "kind of a rant." And as I stated earlier, "Nice rant! Atta boy!"



I do agree that brief positive posts can be quite adequate as a response. 
why? well, as far as I see it, I might look at a photo and like it, but maybe I cant really find anything to nitpick about, or maybe it is outside my range of technical or artistic knowledge, but i want to leave a comment anyway just to show i was there and liked the shot. As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with just acknowledging the fact that I have enjoyed viewing the photo, but cannot offer any deeper critique due to any of the reasons mentioned above. 
I dont think there is a real "need" to validate positive reinforcement, although theres nothing wrong with stating WHY you liked the photo as this gives the OP a little more insight as to what they may have done right, or where their strongest points are on a photo. 
negative reinforcement however, especially in the form of simple one liners like "bin this one", offers the OP little to no insight, and without instructions as to correcting their mistakes, there is little chance of the OP learning anything from the critique. whats the point of posting any critique if not for the OP to learn from it?


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> That is your opinion and you're welcome to it.  A critique is not validated or invalidated based on the number of words or expansion of thought, nor on the experience or verbal abilities of the person making the critique.  It is, in its simplest form, an expressed opinion, and that can be done in a few words.



I'm not even having this discussion, Buckster.


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> whats the point of posting any critique if not for the OP to learn from it?


To let them know how the piece makes you feel, if only at a base level; To give them your initial impression.  There is something to be learned from that, even if it's not a step by step guide to how to correct it.

If a chef serves me a dish and I don't like the way it tastes, but can't tell the chef how to fix it so that it would taste good to me, does that make my expression that it's not for me less valid?


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > That is your opinion and you're welcome to it.  A critique is not validated or invalidated based on the number of words or expansion of thought, nor on the experience or verbal abilities of the person making the critique.  It is, in its simplest form, an expressed opinion, and that can be done in a few words.
> ...


I'm sorry, but could you expand on this thought?  I find it to be much too lacking in information to help me.  Your posts should teach me how to do better, or you should just shut up and not respond, right?


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > whats the point of posting any critique if not for the OP to learn from it?
> ...



Uh-oh...Buckster, you're applying logical thought to a rant-based thread's premise... Cue the voice-over guy saying, "Danger, Buck-robinson, danger!" lol


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

I didn't say that you had to explain how to fix it. Not at all.

Let's say someone doesn't like an image because the WB is off. All that someone with limited experience has to say is "I don't like how the skin looks weird". Sure, technically a "one liner" but also not what I was referring to.

Let's say someone doesn't understand the intent, all that someone has to do is say "I am not sure I understand this, mind providing some background?"

I mean seriously, Buckster. You have these preconceived ideas about me from some post I made at some point in the past which you're now using to filter everything I write as some kind of elitist snob. While there may be some validity to this in some regard to my attitudes, it's mostly toward the commercial photography establishment - most certainly not toward people who lack experience!


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## EIngerson (Jul 1, 2013)

I don't get it.


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## kathyt (Jul 1, 2013)

There are times when I just want to say WOW to an image and that's it. Sometimes saying what comes to your mind first is beneficial to the photographer. I don't like rules.


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## kathyt (Jul 1, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> I don't get it.


What was the question again? I forgot.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> I don't get it.



Nice shot..   :lmao:


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## nycphotography (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> LOL @ the crop!
> Portrait orientation!
> Bad lighting!
> terrible Posing!
> ...



Exactly.  perhaps this thread can serve as a reference and other members should respond to such posts with:

Terrible C&C. Try Harder.  For more information click here.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...



I have no idea what your background is, but your definition of "critique" is completely inaccurate. 

From Wikipedia:



> Critique is an accepted and established process of orderly scholarly and public debate. In the fine arts and the humanities, and especially in writing, critique is influenced by the scientific method of analysis. Critique is based upon an informed opinion, and never upon personal opinion.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique

I don't agree with the article's limited definition of "informed opinion", but I do agree with the rest. Critique is about analysis, not personal knee jerk opinions. I earned that "D-" on my first critique paper in Art Theory, and I had learned enough from it to know that "send it to the trash bin" isn't a critique.

As for anyone who posts for any other reason than critique, I couldn't care less about them.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> There are times when I just want to say WOW to an image and that's it. Sometimes saying what comes to your mind first is beneficial to the photographer. *I don't like rules.*



You are becoming quite the Rebel lately! Me likey!


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > whats the point of posting any critique if not for the OP to learn from it?
> ...



I think what I was trying to say is, even if you dont like a photo, you should be at least able to say why you didnt like it. something other than "bin that one".
surely if you  get food you dont like, you can at least somewhat explain what you dont like about it. maybe its too salty, overcooked, undercooked, too spicy....
the same goes for a photo. telling the chef that his steak sucked doesn't really express anything useful, except your obvious displeasure,  and does nothing to help the chef. telling the chef that the steak is too spicy, or is too tough however, might give the chef enough insight to fix the issue, even though you were unable to tell him how to fix it.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > LOL @ the crop!
> ...



But we have hundreds of threads based on this this premise... and some of the other are more informative and constructive. Lets use those (But I am NOT going to go find them!)  lol!


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Does anybody else find it ironic that the OP is arguing against the reasoned opinions and rational replies that his post has generated?


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## gsgary (Jul 1, 2013)

This is boring


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...


The further we discuss this issue, the further we get from the OP's ACTUAL title and original premise, and closer to the idea that people shouldn't make 3 word insults posts, and nothing more, as a response to someone's posted photo.

To that, I agree.

But that's not at all what the title says nor what the original post and premise of this thread make clear - which was that people who don't offer what the OP considers a VALID critique, should not post at all.  He even went on to say that even POSITIVE posts that don't go into detail are annoying to him.  He wasn't JUST targeting short rude comments as unwelcome.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, all else aside, I have to give credit to the OP for starting a thread that's turned out to be a lot of fun.  And to think, I might have decided to go to sleep instead of click on it... I'd have been so disappointed later on.


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > Buckster said:
> ...



oh...well, I guess I misinterpreted the OP then. my bad. 
I didn't mean to derail the thread, or go off topic. 
but i will go on record as saying that 3 word insult posts are pretty much useless, and i am perfectly fine with my photos getting "great shot" comments. 
that is all.


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## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

Then there are all those posters who get all defensive and stuff if you say anything negative about their photograph.  Makes me want to never comment on their stuff anymore.  

You know the type; highfalutin "artists" who think their stuff doesn't stink.  I've seen it here and in my profession.  Can't take criticism from anybody because the critics haven't seen the world through their eyes.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm also glad that Buckster cleared up my intentions. I must have misread my own thread.

I also don't mind "great shot", I appreciate the encouragement (didn't I say that? maybe not... or maybe I just meant something else. I'm confused...) but I would find it much more useful to know what I did that was so "great".

But Buckster here set me straight. I'm actually "annoyed" with those comments. Not sure why I'd feel that way, but if Buckster says so, I guess I must be.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> I'm also glad that Buckster cleared up my intentions. I must have misread my own thread.
> 
> I also don't mind "great shot", I appreciate the encouragement (didn't I say that? maybe not...) but I would find it much more useful to know what I did that was so "great".



I love this thread.. it's provided me with quite a bit of insight, entertainment and an idea of the various personalities and views within this forum.. I think you did a great job.

I could have just said, "Great thread"... but this was more fun.


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## nycphotography (Jul 1, 2013)

Perhaps a better rant would be:

Don't offer negative critique.  I was going to type "without... bla bla bla" but yanno... there just is simple rule for this.  You quickly devolve into i before e except after c or when it sounds like gay but not when everyone can see the hay.

I guess the simplest rule would be: Don't offer negative critique that fails to comply with the golden rule.

But then who doesn't know that already


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## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

As long as we're derailing this thread, how about the ones wherein there is a pretty bad photograph, and has gotten some helpful criticism, only later to receive "wow, nice shot!" from several other posters.  

I think the key to recognizing the value of criticism is to consider the critic and whether he is perceived as one who might actually know what he is talking about.  So if one of the pros offers a detailed and heart-felt critique, I think that we should pay attention to what was written, and try to learn something form it.


----------



## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also glad that Buckster cleared up my intentions. I must have misread my own thread.
> ...



Buckster misreads everything I write. I'm not saying it's his fault, some people just don't communicate well together. 

But instead of just concluding that we don't get along well and leave it at that, he chooses to bicker endlessly like that annoying kid we all knew in 7th grade.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, I don't know anything about the history between your communication.. so I won't comment on that.

I will say however, that you both seem like intelligent people and I've seen both of you post what I thought to be valuable information, C&C and insights.


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## kundalini (Jul 1, 2013)

Valuable information can be gleaned from a positive or negative one-liner response, if the receiver is open minded.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> Well, I don't know anything about the history between your communication.. so I won't comment on that.
> 
> I will say however, that you both seem like intelligent people and I've seen both of you post what I thought to be valuable information, C&C and insights.



Really?    




















 <yes.. joking.. sort of!>  lol!


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Charlie.. you're such a damn trouble maker. :lmao:

Probably why I like you.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> The idea that offering a C&C on a TPF photo post will "improve one's critical thinking skills" is patently ridiculous. I mean, come on man...that's just a ridiculous premise.



?
??

The way we learn about an issue that we originally know nothing about is to study the field, learn the vocabulary so as to understand the concepts, try to understand how the concepts apply to the reality, understand a bit about the standards of the greater society and then figure out how our personal likes and dislikes can be linked to and described in the language of the issue. Then the person takes a specific instance and dissects the issues and uses his/her underlying knowledge and understanding to create a critique.

This works for judging wine, judging dogs, judging flower arrangements and judging art. 

Learning how to do that last part, the building and exercise of critical judgement, is the most valuable part of an online community because the various comments provide the links between knowledge and the specific instance that builds a viewer's critical abilities. The more more each person exercises his critical faculties, the better they become.


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## JacaRanda (Jul 1, 2013)

Are we allowed to take the good, and ignore the bad?  Critique that helps me may not help another.  My way is not the best way to everyone.  It is so confusing when I get such different advice or critique from the experienced.  It's great to care and have passion about my photography, but I don't own TPF.  Enjoy the drama!

Food for thought.


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## e.rose (Jul 1, 2013)

This whole thread is TL;DR... and I'm already doing a FABULOUS job of procrastinating at what I SHOULD be doing, so I'm not gonna go through and read it all...

However...

Shawn, I love you, and while for the most part I agree... there ARE times where "newbie" type responses are enough.

I happened to noticed as I was scrolling through, Kathy's response of only wanting to say "WOW!" and that's it.  I feel the same way sometimes.

I'm weird.  And what I'm about to say a lot of people aren't going to like, but SOMETIMES... when I see something that I love... I just want to enjoy it.  I don't want to rip it apart and understand the mechanics behind it.  I just want to say "Wow" and stare at it for a little while and just... take it in.

I mean there are certainly times where I see something I love and I DO sit there and analyze it, but sometimes I just want to enjoy it.

I'm the same way with music.  My husband has a bad habit of sitting there and starting to rip apart and analyze and critique a certain song or band that I like, and I hate that, because it ruins it for me.  I just wanna love it.  Period. 

On the flip side of things... sometimes I will take my work to my husband, before I bring it here or somewhere else to be critiqued.

Why?

Cause he's not a photographer.  He has ZERO interest in photography.  At all.

And sometimes what I want is the purest reaction I can get from someone.

"Hey babe, what do you think of this?"

"Something about her face is weird."

"Okay, thanks."

Ordinarily someone would ***** about how that's not specific enough.  WHAT about her face is weird?  (If I ask him that, he comes back with, I don't know).  But chances are, I can look at it, after he says that, and realize... "You know... he's right... something about her face DOES look weird..." and being that *I'M* the one with the skill set for this, I can usually figure out what it is, and fix it.  But he, without any photographic knowledge, brought it to my attention with a few, non specific words.

Other times I'll show him something and he'll go, "Looks good!"

That's it.  Just "Looks good".

And if he thinks it looks good, then I know it's good enough for the general public, cause that boy and I are BRUTALLY honest with each other about our craft, so if he doesn't say "It's too bright" or "her face is weird" or... whatever he's ever told me before, then I know I'm good to go.  At that point I bring it somewhere else for the "rip this apart so I can improve" kind of critique.  You know... so I can improve.  

But I don't find any sort of response invaluable.  Some of them you have to work a little harder at to get the full meaning of it... other times people will spell it out for you.

The WORST kind of critique... is no response at all, in my opinion.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

When you play tennis with a skilled player, you don't need to say more than 'nice shot.'

Same with photos.


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

e.rose said:


> The WORST kind of critique... is no response at all, in my opinion.


One of my early mentors, an artist by training and trade, said basically the same thing to me, "Whether people like it or hate it, the stronger the response, the better.  That means you're creating art.  It's only when there is no response at all that you're doing it wrong."


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

e.rose said:


> The WORST kind of critique... is no response at all, in my opinion.



Which is pretty much the only critique I get ... and I have a sinking feeling that I might have ensured that for some time to come :/


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> When you play tennis with a skilled player, you don't need to say more than 'nice shot.'
> 
> Same with photos.



I don't play tennis with skilled players.. or racket-ball... not because I'm afraid of looking bad or having to say "Nice shot" 500 times ... but because those balls are magnetically drawn to my f'cking face...


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## slow231 (Jul 1, 2013)

i don't understand how "it's boring" and "i don't get it" are not valid criticisms for something that is inherently about aesthetics. how is interest in a photo not pertinent to it's aesthetic value?  how is not being able to discern the photographer's intentions or the image's potential value to other viewers also not relevant? i think in this regard the OP is missing the forest for the trees, a general impression is probably just as important (if not more) than any detailed impressions of an image.

I think a better point would be that if one can elaborate further and explain the reasoning (positive or negative), it would be MORE beneficial in terms of CC.  but it's not fair to say that general impressions are not valuable.  Also general impressions can't always be broken down into more specific details, this may be due to the inadequacies in the viewer being able to articulate/understand the reasons, or simply because sometimes (especially with all things aesthetic) the whole is not a sum of the parts!


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## table1349 (Jul 1, 2013)

...... Never mind.


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## MiFleur (Jul 1, 2013)

This is an excellent topic that probably made a lot of people think back on their comments on other`s pictures. 
I am sometimes annoyed to see post that seem so technical that you forget the radiating smile of the person on the picture to see only the lighting.
I am not a pro, I am an amateur who likes photography. I appreciate what I learn from this forum a lot, but I also appreciate having comments good or bad on my pictures, I personally prefer to have 1 line comments to no comments at all. But I have really appreciated the different points of view of this post and it will make me think more when I look at other's pictures.

Thank You Unpopular for bringing up that subject, thanks Buster for your interesting view on the subject and all the others that made this conversation enriching!


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

The_Traveler said:
			
		

> The way we learn *about an issue that we originally know nothing about* is to study the field, learn the vocabulary so as to understand the concepts, try to understand how the concepts apply to the reality, understand a bit about the standards of the greater society and then figure out how our personal likes and dislikes can be linked to and described in the language of the issue. Then the person takes a specific instance and dissects the issues and uses his/her underlying knowledge and understanding to create a critique.
> 
> This works for judging wine, judging dogs, judging flower arrangements and judging art.
> 
> Learning how to do that last part, the building and exercise of critical judgement, is the most valuable part of an online community because the various comments provide the links between knowledge and the specific instance that builds a viewer's critical abilities. The more more each person exercises his critical faculties, the better they become.



Not sure that everybody here knows that you and I do not get along Lew (AKA The_Traveler, for those who are unaware of who 'Lew' is), and I highly doubt that most people here are aware that you've expressly told me never to reply to anything you post Lew, but...seriously...I doubt that after 35 years of intensely looking at photographs, and 40 years of making photos, that providing one or two more C&Cs on TPF will "improve my critical thinking skills". 

What if I tell one more joke each day? Will I become Jerry Seinfeld or George Carlin caliber as a comedian in a year? 

"Good post, Traveler. Nice stalking."


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## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> Are we allowed to take the good, and ignore the bad?  Critique that helps me may not help another.  My way is not the best way to everyone.



Of course!  Take what you can use, ignore the rest.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

Hell I'm low on the totem pole in talent here.. I can use pretty much all of it. Even this thread is teaching me a lot. :lmao:


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## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

slow231 said:


> i don't understand how "it's boring" and "i don't get it" are not valid criticisms for something that is inherently about aesthetics. how is interest in a photo not pertinent to it's aesthetic value?  how is not being able to discern the photographer's intentions or the image's potential value to other viewers also not relevant? i think in this regard the OP is missing the forest for the trees, a general impression is probably just as important (if not more) than any detailed impressions of an image.
> 
> I think a better point would be that if one can elaborate further and explain the reasoning (positive or negative), it would be MORE beneficial in terms of CC.  but it's not fair to say that general impressions are not valuable.  Also general impressions can't always be broken down into more specific details, this may be due to the inadequacies in the viewer being able to articulate/understand the reasons, or simply because sometimes (especially with all things aesthetic) the whole is not a sum of the parts!



It is much better for the inexperienced person making the comments to elaborate. Figuring out what to say and parsing one's own 'feelings' and attaching them to ideas is a crucial elements in growing as a photographer.




MiFleur said:


> This is an excellent topic that probably made a lot of people think back on their comments on other`s pictures.
> I am sometimes annoyed to see post that seem so technical that you forget the radiating smile of the person on the picture to see only the lighting.



If the content of the post overwhelms any technical shortcomings, great. 
But, as we see too often, viewers focus on content-related stuff and ignore technical issues that might be valuable to the photographer.  
What will save that photographer when he/she gets the baby/puppy/person/place that isn't so attractive?
Critique is always to make the following pictures better.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 1, 2013)

Basically there are three variables that come into play here:


1  The level of skill/vocabulary of the person giving the critique. 

2  The level of skill/vocabulary of the person receiving the critique.

3  The intended audience for the work.

Start playing with the dials on those three things and you can end up with an infinite number of situations.  

"What does that matter?", you may ask.

No one way of doing things is going to serve every situation equally.  Ever.  In anything.

For a group of artists we are certainly all guilty of being pretty close minded from time to time.


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## ronlane (Jul 1, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> I think that this has helped me to improve is looking at photos and trying to give useful comments, good or bad. What I've gained is the vocabulary to explain what I am seeing and feeling about a certain photo. There are still times where I can tell something is good or bad but I can't put my finger on why or what is causing me to feel that way. The times where I have posted this on that thread, someone else will come behind me and explain exactly what I am seeing.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

everyone on this site feel free to use negative and positive one liners on my photos if they want.  Once bitter posted a video.  I believe it was a blue man video all done in blue or something to the sort. Saw the video, looked at the photo, and realised how cool my white balance was. Someone saying bin it lets me know you don't like it. If tons of people are saying that, then likely the photo is only apealing to me an nobody else. It lets me know where it stands with everyone else.  Someone saying learn color balance is going to cause me to look at the photo and see where my colors are at, and did I miss something or go overboard in regards to color.   One liners even negative can be extremely useful if you have an open mind and are willing to look into the responce. It's usually the more close minded people who can't deal with negative one liners. They feel it's a personal attack to themselves instead of the photo itself. they don't have the abillity to pull thereselves out of the photo. Maybe it's just the fact my self esteem isn't build on what some anonomous person on the internet says. So continue to respond to my photos however you choose. Good or bad.


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## e.rose (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> Maybe it's just the fact my self esteem isn't build on what some anonomous person on the internet says.



It's NOT?!

Well sh*t, I need to work harder at doing my job.

It will be by the time I'm done with you.

Don't worry.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> everyone on this site feel free to use negative and positive one liners on my photos if they want.  Once bitter posted a video.  I believe it was a blue man video all done in blue or something to the sort. Saw the video, looked at the photo, and realised how cool my white balance was. Someone saying bin it lets me know you don't like it. If tons of people are saying that, then likely the photo is only apealing to me an nobody else. It lets me know where it stands with everyone else.  Someone saying learn color balance is going to cause me to look at the photo and see where my colors are at, and did I miss something or go overboard in regards to color.   One liners even negative can be extremely useful if you have an open mind and are willing to look into the responce. It's usually the more close minded people who can't deal with negative one liners. They feel it's a personal attack to themselves instead of the photo itself. they don't have the abillity to pull thereselves out of the photo. Maybe it's just the fact my self esteem isn't build on what some anonomous person on the internet says. So continue to respond to my photos however you choose. Good or bad.



That's good.. I am going to C&C your post by posting an image of your post!




Can you guess what the lines mean?  lol!   :er:   (Hint... It is something we have discussed in the past!)


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

Thanks Charlie, I went over it quickly and should have paid more attention. Next time you can just use the underlines, I can gather the C%C from that.


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

Wow, the thread has graduated to "Spelling and Grammar Nazi" discussion already?  Where does the time go?!

Now where did I put the link to that video... ?  Ah, here it is:

Stephen Fry Takes A Firm Stance On Grammar.

Enjoy!


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

I prefer him here:


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> Thanks Charlie, I went over it quickly and should have paid more attention. Next time you can just use the underlines, I can gather the C%C from that.



hahaha.. Good man!


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> Wow, the thread has graduated to "Spelling and Grammar Nazi" discussion already?  Where does the time go?!
> 
> Now where did I put the link to that video... ?  Ah, here it is:
> 
> ...



NAZI? Hmmmm... wow! I just got called a NAZI... that is majorly offensive, no matter how you put it! 

(my post was a private joke with 12SNDSGOOD.. you wouldn't understand!)


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> my post was a private joke


Pro Tip: Use the PM feature for private stuff, and others won't comment on them publicly.  :thumbup:


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

Buckster said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > my post was a private joke
> ...



As I said, you wouldn't understand... it would not have been a joke in a PM!


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## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...


HILARIOUS!!!  Fits right in with the theme too!!  How *DO* you do it??!!!  :thumbup:;-)


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## Ballistics (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> I also don't mind "great shot", I appreciate the encouragement (didn't I say that? maybe not... or maybe I just meant something else. I'm confused...) but I would find it much more useful to know what I did that was so "great".



Sometimes, an appreciation for a photo is far beyond articulation.


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## e.rose (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> I prefer him here:



So.  Yeah.  I watched that whole thing.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

That episode is the BOMB. Seriously, the BEST EVER.


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## bunny99123 (Jul 1, 2013)

When I joined, I didn't get a disclaimer on the rules of C&C. Someone posted that that a lot of people look, but don't post. That is just as bother some. 

This is a free forum and if someone calls a photo boring, so be it. People are free to respond as they wish unless it is crude.

What I see is people responding to a limited choice people on here. What is your opinion on that?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> everyone on this site feel free to use negative and positive one liners on my photos if they want.  Once bitter posted a video.  I believe it was a blue man video all done in blue or something to the sort. Saw the video, looked at the photo, and realised how cool my white balance was.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

There are forums where critique _qua_ critique happens. This isn't one of them. Being beginner focused, most people want and receive fairly light technical critique, if anything.


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## ronlane (Jul 1, 2013)

Bitter's back. Welcome back to the party.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 1, 2013)

I plan to shoot only Smurfs at some point, without their clothes... how could you screw the pooch on the white balance there?... unless... ah chit.. if I shoot them too warm I'll have a bunch of midget Grinch bastards... 

Back to the drawing board...

After I sleep.. I'm obviously tired.


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> When I joined, I didn't get a disclaimer on the rules of C&C. Someone posted that that a lot of people look, but don't post. That is just as bother some.
> 
> This is a free forum and if someone calls a photo boring, so be it. People are free to respond as they wish unless it is crude.
> 
> What I see is people responding to a limited choice people on here. What is your opinion on that?



I would say that its a free forum and if someone chooses only to post comments for certain people, so be it.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > everyone on this site feel free to use negative and positive one liners on my photos if they want. Once bitter posted a video. I believe it was a blue man video all done in blue or something to the sort. Saw the video, looked at the photo, and realised how cool my white balance was.




LOL  That was it.


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Lesson from thread: Everyone is entitled to express their opinion no matter how inadequately provided that the opinion isn't the one I had expressed.


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## bunny99123 (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> I would say that its a free forum and if someone chooses only to post comments for certain people, so be it.



I agree! You got the bait! When communication is restricted, then were does it stop.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> Lesson from thread: Everyone is entitled to express their opinion no matter how inadequately provided that the opinion isn't the one I had expressed.



Well, some of us agree with you, but we're out-shouted by some very very shouty people.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> What I see is people responding to a limited choice people on here.



I don't know what you mean.


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that its a free forum and if someone chooses only to post comments for certain people, so be it.
> ...



Bait? So you admit to trolling? 

You dont think theres a difference between not commenting on someone's photo, and leaving negative, unconstructive feedback? 

I don't think anyone here is talking about restricting or censuring what someone is allowed to say as far as c&c goes. What some people ARE trying to do is elicit a more thought out approach to c&c to better help people grow as photographers.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> bunny99123 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



The problem is unconstructive critcism means diffrent things to diffrent people. the things you posted a few pages back white balance off,  composition, etc, little one word answers that you took to mea unconstructive isn't unconstructive at all to me.   like i pointed out. bitter reponded to my photo with a video of blue guys and i got the gist of it and figured out how to improve and what was wrong with my photo.  i'd prefer someon just give me pieces of the puzzle and let me figure it out so i can grow as a photographer. someone says "this does nothing for me" then i instantly know that this guy had no connection with it.   all those things mentioned for me are constructive. but again, its because I don't take it as an attack, so for me they aren't negative.


(think my keyboard is on its way out)


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## tirediron (Jul 1, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> ...What I see is people responding to a limited choice people on here. What is your opinion on that?


As opposed to?  It would take a lot of someone's time to respond to everyone's posts (not to mention give the poor server squirrel a heart-attack!).  I respond when I feel that there's something useful I can contribute or when a particular image strikes me, good or bad.  I suspect the same is true for most here.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

tirediron said:


> bunny99123 said:
> 
> 
> > ...What I see is people responding to a limited choice people on here. What is your opinion on that?
> ...



You are pretty good at responding to a good majority of photos Tirediron, but there are those that just respond to certain people and the truth of the matter that is just how things are. when I see people post up photos of people I know or talk to a lot i'm much more inclined to respond then a total stranger, so you are going to have those people that do generate a lot of responces good or bad.


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## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > bunny99123 said:
> ...



Its all relative to experience of the OP.  Obviously, subtle color hints are enough for you to understand the problem and know how to correct it.  Apply that same scenario to someone who got their first camera last weekend and the results might be different. For me, it isnt so much a matter of being negative or not, but whether the c&c is useful to the OP or not.


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## 12sndsgood (Jul 1, 2013)

A lot of the time I have no clue what the poster knows or doesn't knows.  There in lies the problems. useful to me may not be useful to you. I'd rather not go in deapth to someone who can pick things up with a simple sentance. if i keep something short and sweet someone can comes back wanting more info. then I will gladly give more info.  Seems whenever I have gone into a lot of detail on something I get a responce like "well I allready new that, i'm not an idiot" or something to that extent. so i just answer normally and if they want clarification they can ask for it.


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## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

If your critique isn't comprehensible, in some meaningful way, to any reasonably competent reader of the english language, your critique probably isn't very well written. What we see here isn't usually a mismatch of knowledge, it's a mismatch of intent.

Several of the most prolific posters primarily want to give technical critique, and become quite huffy when it's explained that the OP isn't looking for a discussion of the histogram, or the EXIF data. Contrariwise, many posters looking for critique simply aren't interested in artistic merit, they want to know what they can do to make it be in focus, or if they used the right aperture, or where to stick the lights. So, you get quite a lot of butting of heads either way. Everyone understands everyone else, or could if they bothered to pay attention, but they're not interested in what one another has to say, and are frequently irritated that the other person is saying it (which is where we really get into trouble).


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> If your critique isn't comprehensible, in some meaningful way, to any reasonably competent reader of the english language, your critique probably isn't very well written. What we see here isn't usually a mismatch of knowledge, it's a mismatch of intent.
> 
> Several of the most prolific posters primarily want to give technical critique, and become quite huffy when it's explained that the OP isn't looking for a discussion of the histogram, or the EXIF data. Contrariwise, many posters looking for critique simply aren't interested in artistic merit, they want to know what they can do to make it be in focus, or if they used the right aperture, or where to stick the lights. So, you get quite a lot of butting of heads either way. Everyone understands everyone else, or could if they bothered to pay attention, but they're not interested in what one another has to say, and are frequently irritated that the other person is saying it (which is where we really get into trouble).



I wasn't really paying attention and I have no idea what you are talking about but I'm sure I'm pissed off about it, so there.


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)




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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> If your critique isn't comprehensible, in some meaningful way, to any reasonably competent reader of the english language, your critique probably isn't very well written. What we see here isn't usually a mismatch of knowledge, it's a mismatch of intent.
> 
> Several of the most prolific posters primarily want to *give technical critique, and become quite huffy* when it's explained that the OP isn't looking for a discussion of the histogram, or the EXIF data. Contrariwise, *many posters looking for critique simply aren't interested in artistic merit, they want to know what they can do to make it be in focus, or if they used the right aperture, or where to stick the lights.* So, you get quite a lot of butting of heads either way. Everyone understands everyone else, or could if they bothered to pay attention, but they're not interested in what one another has to say, and are frequently irritated that the other person is saying it (which is where we really get into trouble).



Seems like technical stuff to me....


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## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> A lot of the time I have no clue what the poster knows or doesn't knows.  There in lies the problems. useful to me may not be useful to you. I'd rather not go in deapth to someone who can pick things up with a simple sentance. if i keep something short and sweet someone can comes back wanting more info. then I will gladly give more info.  Seems whenever I have gone into a lot of detail on something I get a responce like "well I allready new that, i'm not an idiot" or something to that extent. so i just answer normally and if they want clarification they can ask for it.



That is why I often post an edit.. so they can SEE the differences (even though "some" tell me my edit's suck, the recipient of the edit never has.. they are usually appreciative!)    The old saw, about a Picture being worth 1000 words!  lol!


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## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Scenario: An image is posted. A respondent provides a long, detailed C&C.....followed by the OP coming back with, "Oh, all that negative space? I like it like that! You are mean,and you suck. Please do not reply to any of my posts." 

And the shallow depth of field, so shallow that much of the subject drifts into the defocused zone? 

"I really like shooting at f/1.8--that's why I bought the 50mm 1.8."


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## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

^^ at the same point, I also hear a lot of "oh, how dare you question my opinion! it doesn't matter that I don't like minimalism to start with and that your critique is biased by your taste. You should just stfu and take my advice because I'm awesome like that and you're just a pretentious artsy fartsy w*nker who's full of himself".


----------



## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

I think that one of the reasons that new people may not get as many responses is that we don't have much of a clue where that person is - and how well he/she will look on critique.

I usually suggest that people give a bit of text with their early posts to help viewers know how to get into the C/C without ruffling feathers.


----------



## bunny99123 (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> That is why I often post an edit.. so they can SEE the differences (even though "some" tell me my edit's suck, the recipient of the edit never has.. they are usually appreciative!)    The old saw, about a Picture being worth 1000 words!  lol!



Now, I like that! You can actually visualize the critique.  Put your picture were your mouth is. Present us, "Newbies" with an example of perfect white balance, exposure, etc... I know it would help me a lot, seriously.


----------



## bunny99123 (Jul 1, 2013)

12sndsgood said:


> You are pretty good at responding to a good majority of photos Tirediron, but there are those that just respond to certain people and the truth of the matter that is just how things are. when I see people post up photos of people I know or talk to a lot i'm much more inclined to respond then a total stranger, so you are going to have those people that do generate a lot of responces good or bad.



Could be correct


----------



## bunny99123 (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Bait? So you admit to trolling?
> 
> You dont think theres a difference between not commenting on someone's photo, and leaving negative, unconstructive feedback?
> 
> I don't think anyone here is talking about restricting or censuring what someone is allowed to say as far as c&c goes. What some people ARE trying to do is elicit a more thought out approach to c&c to better help people grow as photographers.



Yep, you caught me


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Dear unpopular,

Perhaps your next thread could be a regurgitation of...no,wait, let's call it a Greatest Hits Collection, a thread that neatly binds together the highlights from, oh, say the last 15 "*How To Give a Proper C&C*" threads, from 2009 to 2013?  Several of this forum's stalwarts have blessed us over the years with their renditions of The Perfect C&C Profile (now available in pamphlet form from Random House, $1.99 + S&H of $1.35). It would sure be swell to be able to read all those preachy posts in one fantastic Greatest Hits Collection summary post! Hours of fun!

We have had many,many "*How To Give a Proper C&C*" posts here. Some real humdingers. Some wonderful, one-size-fits-all, here's how to give C&C the right way, meaning _MY WAY or the highway, damnit!_ posts. complete with extensive description, tips and tricks, and usually one or two nice feel-good homilies.

Can you get on that right away?


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Dear unpopular,
> 
> Perhaps your next thread could be a regurgitation of...no,wait, let's call it a Greatest Hits Collection, a thread that neatly binds together the highlights from, oh, say the last 15 "*How To Give a Proper C&C*" threads, from 2009 to 2013?  Several of this forum's stalwarts have blessed us over the years with their renditions of The Perfect C&C Profile (now available in pamphlet form from Random House, $1.99 + S&H of $1.35). It would sure be swell to be able to read all those preachy posts in one fantastic Greatest Hits Collection summary post! Hours of fun!
> 
> ...



I would pay $1.99 for a digital download of that.


----------



## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> I would pay $1.99 for a digital download of that.



Me, too, providing it was cleaned of all the petty arguing.


----------



## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

Designer said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > I would pay $1.99 for a digital download of that.
> ...



Oh, sweet. Here you go: --><-- I'll PM you paypal info!


----------



## Buckster (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Dear unpopular,
> ...


Will it include that TPF Classic of the genre, *"The Pact"*?


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Ohhhh, I got a chuckle from all of your posts! pixmedic, Designer, amolitor, Buckster--ya'll ROCK!!!!!!!!

Ohhhh, *"The Pact".

**Good times, good times.*


----------



## table1349 (Jul 1, 2013)

Dang,  I didn't realize youall could get 9 pages out of a thread about keeping your pie hole shut lessen your fixin to say something nice bout someones pictures.  One a you college edumacted types tell me, how much hot air you recon been tossed out in this here thread.  Put it in number of hot air balloons that could have been filled.  :lmao:


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Ohhhh, I got a chuckle from all of your posts! pixmedic, Designer, amolitor, Buckster--ya'll ROCK!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ohhhh, "The Pact".
> 
> Good times, good times.



Yea, its what happens to me when i work 36 hour shifts. I gotta finish my RN so i dont have to work as much.


----------



## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

I looked "The Pact" over and it looked like a bold effort to persuade people to commit to being better people. It's not unexpected that it didn't take the world by storm, rolling around in the mud is way more fun. Especially on the internet, where nobody knows you're a dog.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > That is why I often post an edit.. so they can SEE the differences (even though "some" tell me my edit's suck, the recipient of the edit never has.. they are usually appreciative!)    The old saw, about a Picture being worth 1000 words!  lol!
> ...



Never said perfect anything! There is only so much lipstick you can put on a pig!!     lol!


----------



## table1349 (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Yea, its what happens to me when i work 36 hour shifts. I gotta finish my RN so i dont have to work as much.



Your gonna be a Rearendis Numbicitis? (motorcycle riding malady)


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > Ohhhh, I got a chuckle from all of your posts! pixmedic, Designer, amolitor, Buckster--ya'll ROCK!!!!!!!!
> ...



Cool.. didn't know you were working on it... that is definitely a smart path! Went for my ADN RN after I closed my studio, but never completed it. Dropped out to help my ex-wife finish (we met in nursing school) and she was supposed to do the same for me after she graduated! Wanted a divorce instead... lol! Hope you finish soon! Plan on working ER?


----------



## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> here's how to give C&C the right way, meaning _MY WAY or the highway, damnit!_



You and Buckster make a great 'lets blow things out of proportion' tag team. Does encouraging people to stop and think about what they write really warrant such hyperbole?

And besides, who cares what I think about how people should critique? Why haven't you both grown out of this 'you're not the boss of me' mentality yet? Seriously, go off and slam your bedroom door and pout already. Dinner will be here when you've calmed down.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > here's how to give C&C the right way, meaning _MY WAY or the highway, damnit!_
> ...



Dude, you were not even a member here when "The Pact" and all its preachy "My Way Or The Highway, Damnit!" posts were being slapped up all over TPF. As I wrote, we have had sanctimonious, prescriptive, detailed, preachy "*The Proper Way To Give a C&C*" posts here every single year, from 2009 to 2013. MANY of them.

These posts were always of course, made by ONE individual, loudly and firmly telling thousands of other people, exactly how and what they should do to give a "*Proper C&C*". And that is not hyperbole--it's actually a humorous recounting of the actual facts. Your post is surely good enough for inclusion in the Greatest Hits Collection!

Nice thread you posted, runnah!


----------



## amolitor (Jul 1, 2013)

unpopular said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > here's how to give C&C the right way, meaning _MY WAY or the highway, damnit!_
> ...



Isn't it interesting how sometimes you make a pretty mild remark, and then a team of self-appointed correctors will turn up, misconstrue what you said, pick selected pieces out of context to rebut with increasing fury, while stomping more and more angrily at you when you try to clarify. It seems to happen at random, but it probably has something to do with built up testosterone. Worth nothing that there are no women involved, except occasionally one will jump in to cheer on her furious friends a little.

I do enjoy this aspect of TPF a great deal, where by "enjoy" I mean "view with disdain and disgust".


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> I looked "The Pact" over and it looked like a bold effort to persuade people to commit to being better people. It's not unexpected that it didn't take the world by storm, rolling around in the mud is way more fun. Especially on the internet, where nobody knows you're a dog.



"The Pact" died for one main reason. I have sent the reasoning to you in a PM. You're really talking out of your posterior, since the introduction of The Pact pre-dates your arrival here by some years.  The advocates of The Pact were not able to walk the talk, and thus it failed. Miserably.


----------



## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



Oh. I thought "the Pact" was some kind of play on "The Secret" or some other pulp novel.

But trust me, instructing a "proper critique" to my specification was _not at all _my intention here. Nor was telling people that they should not ever provide positive one liner responses, only that negative one liner responses are useless, and positive one liners aren't particularly helpful beyond encouragement. I suppose if encouragement is all that you have to offer, it's appropriate, but I never said anything to the contrary.

But my feeling about negative one liners remains. If you can't muster up even a single thought about why you don't like something beyond a knee jerk reaction, there is no way that you can validate it even to yourself. I mean, hell, even saying 'there's something I;m not liking, but I cannot put my finger on it' opens more dialog than what amounts to nothing of greater value than 'your picz suck, bro'.


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

Negative one-liners suck.


----------



## Robin_Usagani (Jul 1, 2013)

Can someome sell me the cliff notes for this?


----------



## EIngerson (Jul 1, 2013)

Unpopular is mad at people.
The people he is mad at got mad at him in-turn.
Still other people are trying to figure out the source of his anger.
Some could actually care less.

All of this took 10 pages to figure out.

You're welcome.


----------



## nycphotography (Jul 1, 2013)

amolitor said:


> unpopular said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...



Dunno if you've seen this before, amolitor, but way back in the day, Mike Reed had me rolling on the floor.

No, it hasn't been updated in over a decade, but really, personality types aren't going to change.

Be sure to click through to several of the different "warriors"... I'm sure several names will come readily to mind. ;-)

Flame Warriors by Mike Reed


----------



## HughGuessWho (Jul 1, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> Dunno if you've seen this before, amolitor, but way back in the day, Mike Reed had me rolling on the floor.
> 
> No, it hasn't been updated in over a decade, but really, personality types aren't going to change.
> 
> ...



That is freaking hilarious!!


----------



## nycphotography (Jul 1, 2013)

HughGuessWho said:


> That is freaking hilarious!!



My favorite is "Diplomat"  lol


----------



## HughGuessWho (Jul 1, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> HughGuessWho said:
> 
> 
> > That is freaking hilarious!!
> ...



I like "*Profundus Maximus*"


----------



## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Ohhhh, I got a chuckle from all of your posts! pixmedic, Designer, amolitor, Buckster--ya'll ROCK!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ohhhh, *"The Pact".
> 
> **Good times, good times.*



Aw, what the heck, another "like" for that.  You're closing in on 5K, Derrel.


----------



## table1349 (Jul 1, 2013)




----------



## Designer (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Nice thread you posted, runnah!



runnah started this?  Even if he didn't, he'll probably still get the credit for it.


----------



## unpopular (Jul 1, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> Unpopular is mad at people.
> The people he is mad at got mad at him in-turn.
> Still other people are trying to figure out the source of his anger.
> Some could actually care less.
> ...



Probably skieur. But I don't really remember. I bottle these things up.


----------



## kundalini (Jul 1, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Negative one-liners suck.


I disgree to an extent, and here's why.

Just today I gave this one-line response (albeit comprised of two sentences) in a thread.......


> Low key doesn't mean the lack of lighting, in fact, lighting is more important. I used four lights on this self portrait.


That was followed up by a decent example via hyperlink of an older TPF thread for the OP to view to help get my point across.

IMO it wasn't negative, just succinct. It was almost 8:00 in the morning and I had to get to work. 5 1/2 hours later with the OP replying to later posters, I get nothing in response. Do you think this person will be getting an ounce of effort from me in the future?

That's the thing this discussion has passed over. Perhaps I overlooked the discussions because who really wants to read all this bickering? If we take the time to really try and help someone understand a certain aspect of their concern and are completely snuffed, why invest further effort? Sometimes the short reply is an exercise in further discussion. *It's a two-way street*.


With that said, I only have one word left for this particular discussion..............

_*Bacon*_


----------



## Derrel (Jul 1, 2013)

kundalini said:
			
		

> Just today I gave this one-line response (albeit comprised of two sentences) in a thread.......
> 
> 
> > Low key doesn't mean the lack of lighting, in fact, lighting is more important. I used four lights on this self portrait.
> ...



YES, kundalini, I saw that very thread you are referring to, and was a two-post respondent in the same thead myself. As I alluded to earlier in this thread, many times a person offers a C&C, and their reply is met with, "Oh...I LIKE it that way!" or something similar. In the thread you are referring to, the low-key thread, the OP replied somewhat sarcastically to my suggestions; another poster chided him for it; he came back with a reply that said *he was just being sarcastic*. Which is a convenient way to frame one's "I like it that way" type of replies....after the fact one can always say, "Oh, I was just being sarcastic."

I saw your response and your link yesterday; I followed the thread; you linked the OP of that thread to a good example of a well-accepted way to light for low-key portraiture. The replies that came back to you were nonexistent, as I recall, and to me were, well, pretty dismissive. Again--earlier in this thread, I made reference to the way earnest and sincere C&C's are often met with confrontational or ,"I like it that way!" responses.

The situation we're talking about here is one of the reasons I so strongly REJECT, outright, ALL of the proscriptive *How To Do A Proper C&C *posts we've had for the past five years; because each OP and each post is a unique entity. Some OP's, in my opinion, do not merit much C&C, or do not really want anything but accolades and atta-boys. Others will ignore anything unless its perfectly in-line with their own feelings about their work. Some OP's are downright petulant.


----------



## tecboy (Jul 1, 2013)

If a photographer show you a boring photo and asks for C&C,  are you going to say "This is AWESOME BRO!!!"  Sometimes photographers need Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsay to be brutally honest about their works.  There is one photographer I met, he has a high-end dslr and lens far better than mine, and he uses full-auto, jpeg file format, and he crops very too tight. I don't know why he uses full-auto all the times.  I asked him to use raw file format, and he told me,"it is only for heavy editing."  He also told me the reason to crop all his photos very tight is to keep your eyes on the subject.  The way he crops his photos, these photos don't tell the whole story.  A good photographer willing to push himself or herself to a limit to have best photos possible.  However, this photographer don't put any effort at all.  Maybe he is too lazy to use manual.  If Cowell or Ramsay was with me, this photographer will cries like a baby.  Some photographers need to get their head straighten out if they want to be successfull, but NOooo...they are so narrow minded and act like they are better than everyone else.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 1, 2013)

I've read through the first few pages of this thread, and here's my personal feelings on the subject:

Whatever commentary I receive, whether positive or negative, whether a brief couple of words or a diatribe, the value I derive from it is almost exclusively determined by the person providing the C&C.

To be frank, and I truly don't mean any offense by this, I couldn't care less what ALL of the newbs/rookies/people who post snapshot cat pictures in the beginner's forum/etc. think about my work. Their opinion holds pretty much zero value in critique, whether positive or negative. If it's positive, it's irrelevant to me b/c they most likely also think 70% of the stuff on Instacrap is also a "nice pic!" If it's negative, it's irrelevant to me b/c they almost certainly don't have the experience or skill or vocabulary necessary to tell me what they don't like, or why, with any meaningful explanation. I'm not trying to be rude, just stating the facts as I see them. It's like asking a 7yr old piano student to critique an adult pianist's concert performance. There's no frame of reference.

On the flipside, with regard to those members here who clearly have the experience, knowledge and "eye" for a quality image, I place quite a bit of value in their opinion and critique. From any number of people here with whom I've had stimulating back-and-forths with (you know who you are), I'd rather have 1 sentence from them than 14 pages from the peanut gallery.

Then there's other people whose comments I don't give a pile of steaming feces about under any circumstances, b/c they come off as hostile, bitter, disenfranchised cowards lobbing word grenades while hiding behind their computer screens and perceived anonymity...

</rant>


----------



## bentcountershaft (Jul 1, 2013)




----------



## The_Traveler (Jul 1, 2013)

It occurs to me from reading some of these pages that some of the denizens here are lucky this is an Internet forum else they would have been beaten to death years ago.


----------



## kundalini (Jul 1, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


> .....  It's like asking a 7yr old piano student to critique an adult pianist's concert performance. There's no frame of reference......


Ummm, with obvious pedantic intentions, Mozart was already accomplished on the piano and violin when he started composing at the age of 5.


----------



## e.rose (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> That is why I often post an edit.. so they can SEE the differences (even though "some" tell me my edit's suck, the recipient of the edit never has.. they are usually appreciative!)    The old saw, about a Picture being worth 1000 words!  lol!



Your edits suck.  Go away.  Never post another one again.

 :hug::


The_Traveler said:


> I think that one of the reasons that new people may not get as many responses is that we don't have much of a clue where that person is - and how well he/she will look on critique.



Honestly... the reason I steer away from a lot of newbies is this.  I don't know them... I have no idea how they're going to react to the critique, but I assume that it's going to either be, "WHY ARE YOU SO RUDE TO ME?!" or, "Well I LIKE my skin tone to look purple..." and that annoys the sh*t out of me.

And then I make a mental note of that person and never respond to them again.



kundalini said:


> It was almost 8:00 in the morning and I had to get to work. 5 1/2 hours later with the OP replying to later posters, I get nothing in response. Do you think this person will be getting an ounce of effort from me in the future? ... *It's a two-way street*.



This is why I try to say "Thank you" to everyone that replies to one of my image posts.  Whether I agree or disagree... I always thank them... because I *am* thankful someone took the time.

However, I don't always engage in further discussion unless I'm confused or curious about something.  Because usually... whatever has been stated, in my mind doesn't really warrant further discussion.  They have stated their opinion, which again I appreciate, I either take it to consideration, or sometimes I disagree, but either way that's all that there is to it.  And when I disagree, I *usually* don't state that I do, because it very well could be a valid critique.  Even if what they're critiquing really is "how I wanted it", I still don't usually say that, because then it seems just as whinny as when the newbies do it.  Sometimes people will say something that I just literally don't understand, so I ask for clarification.  Sometimes someone will say something that I find curious and would like them to expand upon so I ask... but for the most part, I just give a "Thank you", and it's NOT to appear unappreciative or even rude (as someone once accused me of being  ).  It's literally because I just don't always see a need to converse on certain points.

"She needs more catchlight in her eyes"

"Thank you"

Vs.

"She needs more catchlight in her eyes"

"Why do you say that?"

"Because her eyes are dark and lifeless"

"Oh.  Okay.  I already insinuated that's why you said that, but I was just asking to expand upon the conversation.  So.  Hey thanks for your feedback"



::shrugs::

MORAL OF THE STORY:  Kun... if you ever give feedback to a thread and I only say "Thank you"... it's because I understand and have taken what you said into consideration, and what you have stated was stated clearly enough that I'm not confused by it, so I don't need further explanation.  




kundalini said:


> With that said, I only have one word left for this particular discussion..............
> 
> _*Bacon*_



YES. :cheers:


----------



## runnah (Jul 1, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> It occurs to me from reading some of these pages that some of the denizens here are lucky this is an Internet forum else they would have been beaten to death years ago.



I like this because its true and Id probably throw in a few kicks.


----------



## e.rose (Jul 1, 2013)

Sandra6ugo said:


> Agree completely, and thanks for fighting the good fight - most of us have given up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh...

SPAM REPORTED.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 1, 2013)

e.rose said:


> SPAM REPORTED.



get 'em Emliy! A warriors heart in a small and lovely package!


----------



## kathyt (Jul 1, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > Derrel said:
> ...


Oh yeah Cgibs and Pixmedic this will be great, you both can get through nursing school and come work along side of me! Then I can critique your nursing skills _and _&#8203;your images. I only have time for one liners though. Be prepared for the hazing. We go really hard on the male nurses! The numbness is only temporary.


----------



## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ay-don-t-say-anything-all-10.html#post2994500

Double likes, FTW!


----------



## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


> I've read through the first few pages of this thread, and here's my personal feelings on the subject:
> 
> Whatever commentary I receive, whether positive or negative, whether a brief couple of words or a diatribe, the value I derive from it is almost exclusively determined by the person providing the C&C.
> 
> ...



I see where you're coming from with that.  However, if you're in business, then the bulk of your business comes from people who LIKE your images, but don't understand what work went into them.  Again, perception of the viewer DOES matter, whether you think it does or not.  If it didn't matter, you wouldn't have any business at all because people wouldn't give two chits about photos... obviously, people of all experience levels appreciate a great photo.  So to blow off anyone who "can't do what you can do" is a pretty hostile stance to take in itself, IMO.

I'm probably very good at a few things most on this forum wouldn't be able to keep up with.  But I don't really see much of a point in standing above anyone and telling them "I don't care what you think, because you don't know what I do"...  when I hear that, from anyone, in any craft or profession... I immediately think "Snob" and "Arrogant"...

I don't know you personally, so please don't perceive this as an attack on you, because it isn't.  Just sharing my view on that particular way of thinking about the people who view your photos and appreciate them.


----------



## tecboy (Jul 2, 2013)

99.9% of the people in this world look at your photos have no photography experiences.  I don't mine them critique my photos.  If they like my photos, these sell.  It is good marketing strategy.  I welcome noobs and amateurs to look at my photos either with positive or negative comments.


----------



## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

I still have a lot to learn about photography, but I am in school for it and have been long enough to appreciate what it takes to create some of the images that we see here.  So I have a strong appreciation for the work involved when somebody posts an outstanding photo..  but I also think, as you say, that it's good to get an opinion from someone who may not know anything.  The bulk of the market, professionally speaking, is going to be people who don't know.  You just can't dismiss your target audience as having no value whatsoever.


----------



## tecboy (Jul 2, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> I still have a lot to learn about photography, but I am in school for it and have been long enough to appreciate what it takes to create some of the images that we see here.  So I have a strong appreciation for the work involved when somebody posts an outstanding photo..  but I also think, as you say, that it's good to get an opinion from someone who may not know anything.  The bulk of the market, professionally speaking, is going to be people who don't know.  You just can't dismiss your target audience as having no value whatsoever.



It is good to hear.  I'm taking classes, too.  Even I 'm not a professional, I enjoy learning more and receiving feedbacks from anyone regardless what levels he or she has in photography.  Beside, a lot of people like my photographs.


----------



## JackPhotography1998 (Jul 2, 2013)

Thank you I appreciate somebody addressing this problem.

Thanks. Jack M'crystal Photography


----------



## pixmedic (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



nah, ive worked in hospitals. you guys have it easy. im all like, lunch break? wtf is that mess? you get off work in 12 hours? that's my halftime! the ER IS the place to be, not up on one of the PCU floors babysitting. I have to do it as a RN though. medics are neutered in the hospitals. down here anyway. cant intubate, cant push drugs, cant IO or EJ...all they do is start lines and monitor telemetry. the only other floor i might consider getting onto, would be doing my CCN and working in an ICU. I have a lot of ventilator experience already, except, with no RT around.


----------



## cgipson1 (Jul 2, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



Depends on the Doc on duty.... once they get to know you, and see competence, they will expand your role (of course that can be limited by Hospital policy too). 

And I HATE RESPIRATORY! Ventilators, trachs.. yuch!


----------



## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > kathythorson said:
> ...


Oh yes. There is ample opportunity to get your hands on pretty much anything that your willing to learn. I love the ER because there is just never a dull moment, and if you have a sense of humor like I do it makes it all the merrier.


----------



## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...


I didn't like the ICU because I want my patients to be able to communicate with me. I am too giddy for the ICU. It is a pretty somber environment. I thrive on chaos. It keeps me on my A game. I think paramedics are extremely underpaid, and it is really sad because they bring such a high skill set to the field. I never really understood why.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Jul 2, 2013)

ShooterJ said:


> I see where you're coming from with that.  However, if you're in business, then the bulk of your business comes from people who LIKE your images, but don't understand what work went into them.  Again, perception of the viewer DOES matter, whether you think it does or not.  If it didn't matter, you wouldn't have any business at all because people wouldn't give two chits about photos... obviously, people of all experience levels appreciate a great photo.  So to blow off anyone who "can't do what you can do" is a pretty hostile stance to take in itself, IMO.
> 
> I'm probably very good at a few things most on this forum wouldn't be able to keep up with.  But I don't really see much of a point in standing above anyone and telling them "I don't care what you think, because you don't know what I do"...  when I hear that, from anyone, in any craft or profession... I immediately think "Snob" and "Arrogant"...
> 
> I don't know you personally, so please don't perceive this as an attack on you, because it isn't.  Just sharing my view on that particular way of thinking about the people who view your photos and appreciate them.



I completely agree with you about the facts of the market...however this forum isn't my market and likely no one on this forum will ever be a client or prospect of mine.

My comments were made exclusively within the context of this and similar forums. In the "real world", unfortunately, all of us schmucks trying to win business are shackled to the fleeting whims of a fickle public.

Now, as for my comments towards the neophytes I addressed earlier, I clearly stated that it wasn't my intention to insult anyone. Their commentary just doesn't carry any value to me. It's the same as me standing in front of a construction site and trying to offer critique to a practicing, professional architect. While I have the same two eyes as they do, I'm in no way qualified to assess their work. I haven't put in the thousands of hours of practice and study in their craft like they have. No different with bright eyed, bushy tailed rookies trying to give critique to a working pro.

It's not an insult at all, just a fact. :thumbsup:


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## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

I understand what you're saying. I also understand that if you're willing to use terms like "bright eyed bushy tailed rookies" or the "peanut gallery".. you do seem to put yourself on a pedestal... maybe you don't intend to insult, maybe you do. I don't know you personally so I can't say ... I can say that in any profession, that line of thinking is looked on as arrogant.  You might be very skilled.. but you weren't born that way, you learned .. and unless you're THE best around, I'm not sure where the arrogance really comes from?

I do see quite a bit of "snobnishness" in this field.. why, I don't know, but it exists without a doubt.  Too much pride I would guess... as I stated earlier... I can do things quite easily that others on here couldn't. I just don't feel the need to talk down to anyone.

To each their own though.  Maybe you are the best around, who knows.  :thumbup:


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## amolitor (Jul 2, 2013)

The difference is, though, that a building is designed under a whole bunch of contraints. It has to not fall down, it has to have such and such space inside it, it cannot be any taller than this, it might need to meet certain branding needs of the owner. There are cost structures in play.

A picture is to looked at. Its purpose is to be looked at by people. If you're only interested in having professional photographers (whatever that means) look at your pictures then, by all means, don't listen to anyone else. But, anyone can look at a picture and tell you their reaction to it. If you're interested in making pictures for anyone to look at, collecting their reactions would serve you as the maker well.

Critique isn't merely a recorded reaction, but just a simple record of the reaction (positive or negative -- here I differ with unpopular quite strenuously) is useful information.

If we make the assumption that, for the most part, people on TPF are interested not merely in looking at pictures but in making pictures for people to look at, people on TPF might reasonably be assumed to want to understand WHY their reaction is the way it is. It would serve those people well to think about that, and attempt to articulate it. unpopular's point (well, one of them) is that this introspection process is a powerful tool for learning how to make pictures that will accomplish what you want to accomplish. I don't think anyone got around to making a coherent rebuttal of that (or anything else, really).

This is why critique is better for everyone. Here I mean critique other than technical, although that's useful for some people it does not in general have this two-way benefit.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

what are we even talking about any more?


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## amolitor (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm talking about bugs.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree with constructive criticism.. I agree that nothing but junk negative one liners have no real value (and by that I mean true garbage like "you suck").. I view an attack as negative feedback.

I agree as it's been stated here that there is value in what everyone has to say, in one form or another.. even if they don't have a well trained eye yet.

I don't agree that "newbies" should be dismissed as irrelevant in a forum used by all levels of experience and geared towards sharing high level work and helping others improve their own.

That dismissal is simply arrogant. There's no other word for it but arrogance.


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## amolitor (Jul 2, 2013)

Junk one liners aren't all bad, though.

If you get 10 people who say 'ugh, I hate it' then you've usually learned something. You don't know how to fix it, but you can be pretty sure that the Person On The Street ain't gonna like this one.

You DO run into personality problems, and herd mentality problems. Someone doesn't like someone else and just posts 'this is crap' and that can set a tone, so you get a bunch of 'I hate it' based on nothing at all. Once the thread gets hot, everyone will take a look, and then someone who hates the first someone who hates the poster will say 'no, it's awesome!'. At this point nobody's learning squat but it's pretty fun. This is pretty rare, though.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Junk one liners aren't all bad, though.
> 
> If you get 10 people who say 'ugh, I hate it' then you've usually learned something. You don't know how to fix it, but you can be pretty sure that the Person On The Street ain't gonna like this one.
> 
> You DO run into personality problems, and herd mentality problems. Someone doesn't like someone else and just posts 'this is crap' and that can set a tone, so you get a bunch of 'I hate it' based on nothing at all. Once the thread gets hot, everyone will take a look, and then someone who hates the first someone who hates the poster will say 'no, it's awesome!'. At this point nobody's learning squat but it's pretty fun. This is pretty rare, though.



I have no problem with someone saying they don't like a photo. That is, as you say, part of the process. It's feedback.. I wouldn't think attacking someone is warranted.. but I view that differently from C&C whether it's "Nice shot" or "I don't like this one".

Honest critiques come both ways, and they should.


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## pixmedic (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > kathythorson said:
> ...



mostly because it only takes a year and a half to do EMT+Paramedic. 2 years if you do your AS-EMS at the same time, but you dont  get any more for the AA degree unless your a firefighter too. and that's what most medics are anyway...firefighters. down here, most of the hospitals are making all their associate RN's get their BSN's, or find work elsewhere. in the next few years, AA RN's wont be able to work in a hospital in this area, they will all require BSN's.


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## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> kathythorson said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...


Our RN's are going all BSN too. They have 3 years to get their BSN if they do not already have it.


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## pixmedic (Jul 2, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > kathythorson said:
> ...



from what ive been told, the differences in getting the BSN are mostly administrative and very little clinical, but the hospitals are all doing it because it gives them a higher accreditation rating with the state since their "education requirements" are higher.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 2, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:


> It's the same as me standing in front of a construction site and trying to offer critique to a practicing, professional architect. While I have the same two eyes as they do, I'm in no way qualified to assess their work. I haven't put in the thousands of hours of practice and study in their craft like they have. No different with bright eyed, bushy tailed rookies trying to give critique to a working pro.
> 
> It's not an insult at all, just a fact. :thumbsup:



I taunt bridge architects all the time.

"Are you seriously going to build that contraption here?  Are you crazy?  With the spindly things and no cool wires or anything?  I wouldn't let my worst enemy ride a bicycle across that thing.  I'm going to start a ferry service, slightly UP river from here so people can still cross near here after that pos falls into the water!  Of course I know what I'm talking about, I design bridges on the weekends!"


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## kundalini (Jul 2, 2013)

In case anyboby is interested......

*http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/off-topic-chat/330583-what-kind-career-do-you-have.html*


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## ShooterJ (Jul 2, 2013)

kundalini said:


> In case anyboby is interested......
> 
> *http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/off-topic-chat/330583-what-kind-career-do-you-have.html*



Already posted in that one.


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## Derrel (Jul 2, 2013)

Wait--are youse guys tryinna' derail this wonderful thread about EMT and nursing work? Come on people, let's stay on-topic about Emergency Medical Technician job hassles and nursing work and chit!!!!


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## ronlane (Jul 2, 2013)

kundalini said:


> In case anyboby is interested......
> 
> *http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/off-topic-chat/330583-what-kind-career-do-you-have.html*



What? It's not a fun thread if there isn't like 3+ difference conversations going on at once. 13 pages and counting on this one.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

^^ i know! it's now officially tied with my next most controversial thread, a photo turned aptly titled "The Threats"


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## tecboy (Jul 2, 2013)

Single out the noobs sounds like insulting.  M Night Shyamalan has many years of film experiences as a professional director, but a lot of his films are box office flops.  If you have a home made video, would you ask Shyamalan to critique, or would you rather have Steven Spielberg to critique.  

Would you ask a wedding photographer to critique your sport photographs, or would you ask a sport photographer to critique your wedding photographs.  I'll remind you... they are both professionals.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

tecboy said:


> Single out the noobs sounds like insulting.  M Night Shyamalan has many years of film experiences as a professional director, but a lot of his films are box office flops.  If you have a home made video, would you ask Shyamalan to critique, or would you rather have Steven Spielberg to critique.



Neither.

Who is singling out newbies?


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## kathyt (Jul 2, 2013)

Derrel said:


> Wait--are youse guys tryinna' derail this wonderful thread about EMT and nursing work? Come on people, let's stay on-topic about Emergency Medical Technician job hassles and nursing work and chit!!!!


Sorry. I don't know how I managed to get derailed from this invigorating yet informative thread. My bad. I will try to stay on track.


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## Buckster (Jul 2, 2013)

Did someone say "track"?

I love trains, but I'm not _*THAT*_ kind of engineer.  Who thinks we should bring back Cow Catchers?  There's just something about them that I really dig the look of.  Pros and cons?


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## Designer (Jul 2, 2013)

Buckster said:


> Did someone say "track"?
> 
> I love trains, but I'm not _*THAT*_ kind of engineer.  Who thinks we should bring back Cow Catchers?  There's just something about them that I really dig the look of.  Pros and cons?



Now that you mention it, I wonder why they ever went away.  I mean; there are still cows, aren't there?  

My guess is that they just didn't look politically correct.  PITA would have a fit if they ever came back.  

PITA - That's my nickname for the 2-year-old.  She doesn't get it.


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 2, 2013)

I was on the Track & Field team in high school.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

I was kicked off the track and field team. tried to use it as motivation to get me to improve my grades.

quitting took WAY less effort.


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## table1349 (Jul 2, 2013)




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## snowbear (Jul 2, 2013)

Track & Field . . . I don't know about that one, but I read _Field and Stream_.


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## Buckster (Jul 2, 2013)

Just remember, don't cross the streams.  It would be bad.


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## runnah (Jul 2, 2013)

Buckster said:


> Just remember, don't cross the streams.  It would be bad.



Like how bad?


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## snowbear (Jul 2, 2013)

Like you might scare all the trout & salmon and ruin your fishing trip.


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## skieur (Jul 2, 2013)

Why not follow your own advice unpopular?


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## bentcountershaft (Jul 2, 2013)

runnah said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > Just remember, don't cross the streams.  It would be bad.
> ...



This isn't leading up to Charlie and Amolitor being Gatekeeper and Keymaster, is it?


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## snowbear (Jul 2, 2013)

Not by me - I'm talking about sporting magazines and fishing.


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## runnah (Jul 2, 2013)

bentcountershaft said:


> This isn't leading up to Charlie and Amolitor being Gatekeeper and Keymaster, is it?



Oooo which is which? Charlie strikes me as more of a power gatekeeper.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

skieur said:


> Why not follow your own advice unpopular?



example? not saying I never have, at least not positive one-liners.


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## unpopular (Jul 2, 2013)

FOURTEEN PAGES! WooooOOOOOOT


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## ShooterJ (Jul 3, 2013)

This forum sees a lot of people who come in with one or two quick questions, then vanish.  Never see them again.  On the other hand, we get those new members who DO have a genuine interest in learning.. and the more they get involved, the more detailed and useful their C&C becomes.  I don't think there's anything to be done with the occasional "stop in" or even the people who might maintain their membership but only drop in once in a while to browse.. for those that stick around and actively take part, I don't think it's a BAD thing that they not only improve upon their ability to TAKE photos, but to recognize the right elements in other photos as well.  

Unless I'm mistaken, that was what unpopular was getting at?  That more involvement by everyone in general is beneficial to those providing C&C and those receiving it.  In any event..  207 posts and 133 likes later, I'd say it's been a worthwhile thread with quite a few different perspectives that will in one way or another, educate or help somebody in their evaluations of work posted on this site.


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## HughGuessWho (Jul 3, 2013)

134 Likes


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## amolitor (Jul 3, 2013)

When somebody asks if you are a pro, YOU SAY YES.


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## ShooterJ (Jul 3, 2013)

Oh no.. is the Ghostbusters theme bleeding over to this one too?  :lmao:


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## amolitor (Jul 3, 2013)

Ghostbusters uber alles!


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## peter27 (Jul 3, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Ghostbusters uber alles!



Ü ü

There you go; you can copy for future use.


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## amolitor (Jul 3, 2013)

Quite right, quite right. Or I could just ueber alles, but that just looks weird.


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## peter27 (Jul 3, 2013)

amolitor said:


> Quite right, quite right. Or I could just ueber alles, but that just looks weird.



Sehr schräg!


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