# Not EVERY potrait must be shot in portrait orientation!



## analog.universe (Jul 18, 2011)

Nor must the rule of thirds be observed, nor must horizons be off center!



Some folks on here certainly have a lot of rules for things that are *100%* personal preference and artistic choices.  I realize that these ideas exist for a reason, but sometimes I feel like people have a checklist of flaws they look for when they C+C, regardless of the overall perception of the image.

There are lots of other things like this too, but the ones I mentioned seem to happen all the time....   Use your eyes, not your textbooks!



(not directed at anyone in particular, because I think we all do it to some extent.   gotta remember to think outside the box)


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

I think it's just because most of the time people who don't shoot in portrait seem to cut off the top of the subjects head


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## butterflygirl921 (Jul 18, 2011)

i agree with misscream they tend to cut the heads off people seem to zoom in too much


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't always have a problem with landscape oriented portraits.

I don't always have a problem with cutting off the top of the head when it's intentional.

I don't always have a problem with blown out skin.

I don't always have a problem with white of the eyes on both sides of the cornea.










Especially when I'm in the picture.


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Nor must the rule of thirds be observed, nor must horizons be off center!


True.




analog.universe said:


> Some folks on here certainly have a lot of rules for things that are *100%* personal preference and artistic choices...


I don't think that's quite accurate.  History, research and experience have shown that off-centre horizons, "rule" of thirds placement, and portrait orientation often make for more visually appealing images than those which are not.  

Do you have to follow these "rules"?  Of course not!  Should you follow them?  It depends.  If you, as the photographer like the image centered or shot horizontally, then by all means, do so.  There are many cases where this works very well, but _*generally*_, _*most*_ images will be more favorably received if at least a passing nod is paid to composition convention.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

Amen.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 18, 2011)

Photography doesn't have rules.


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## Josh66 (Jul 18, 2011)

* in before Derrel *  


Sometimes it's OK to break the 'rules', but you should at least know what the rules are, and why they exist.


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## joealcantar (Jul 18, 2011)

I agree not every shot has got to be this way , it is also good to pull out a bit to give yourself room to make a vertical if it calls for it.  Not all shots are going to be billboards etc.  16x20 at the largest for the most part.  I don't want to take away from the thread but I'd like to see some Horizontal Shots that you think worked to show the point. 
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Shoot well, joe


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## AgentDrex (Jul 18, 2011)

The first rule of photography?  You don't talk about photography...or wait...that really only works in the movie...

Well, let's not call them "rules" then.  Let's call them suggestions for better reception...


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## DiskoJoe (Jul 18, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Nor must the rule of thirds be observed, nor must horizons be off center!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well yeah, but i fail to see the point of this post.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

Our eyes view the world horizontally right?  Even if you only have one eye.


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## joealcantar (Jul 18, 2011)

DiskoJoe said:


> analog.universe said:
> 
> 
> > Nor must the rule of thirds be observed, nor must horizons be off center!
> ...


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Probably to bring out discussion on it as we have started.  More than one way to take an image is the way I look at it, whether it be a certain format, crop or perpective. 
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Shoot well, Joe


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

analog.universe said:
			
		

> Not EVERY portrait must be shot in portrait orientation!
> 
> Nor must the rule of thirds be observed, nor must horizons be off center!



Well, duh! The idea is to utilize the compositional space effectively, and to match the subject's orientation to the framing of the image. Vertical images often convey action, vigor, uprightness, and so on; horizontal images often convey tranquility, restfulness, stillness.

The key to success in portraiture is to know and to understand the language of visual communication, and the elements and principles of design that are the basis for ALL of the arts. Or, look like a hack otherwise. Kids do some cute macaroni art in grade school don't they! A lot of the newbies here are at the macaroni art level.

Of course, if one wishes to look like an uneducated Mom With A Camera or Guy With a Camera, there's no need to study the visual arts, or to educate one's self; the lowest common denominator and anti-intellectualism can help one go far in life. A nice career in the janitorial arts, or sanitation collection, or fast food awaits those who have no education from schools, while a promising career as a Craiglist or Facebook $40 per session shooter awaits those who fail to understand how to point a camera at a person, or to pose a person.


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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> analog.universe said:
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Thanks you great Derrel for your input. every good photographer i know are really well educated and went 10 year in art school. You are amazing.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> analog.universe said:
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I agree with that.  Like I said before, I wanted to potray a different mood when I shoot weddings or engangement session.  But you telling me that im just a guy with camera and no different than MWC is what I have problem with.  All the wedding photographers I look up to do over 90% horizontal.  You just saw my senior photos, I did that almost all vertical. But I will continue taking wedding pics with mostly horizontal.  Thanks!


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

ghache stalking behavior


"Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...led-third-step-increments-shutter-speeds.html  (post #7)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...-pictures-ladies-summer-several-pictures.html   (post #5)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...d-ass-photoshoot-semi-nsfw-pic-intensive.html     (post #5)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...t-computer-go-you-guys-use-6.html#post2293367    (post #89)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/professional-gallery/250702-my-first-senior-pics.html#post2295051   (post #6)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...640-file-transfer-question-2.html#post2295058    (post #22)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...-looking-cc-exposure-focus-2.html#post2295074    (post #18)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/250406-24-105mm-l-soft-need-help-2.html   (post #26)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...640-file-transfer-question-2.html#post2295063      (post #22)


http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...y-potrait-must-shot-portrait-orientation.html   (post #15)


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> I think it's just because most of the time people who don't shoot in portrait seem to cut off the top of the subjects head





butterflygirl921 said:


> i agree with misscream they tend to cut the heads off people seem to zoom in too much



So? That hasn't stopped Platon from shooting world leaders and huge celebrities with nice medium format cameras.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> I think it's just because most of the time people who don't shoot in portrait seem to cut off the top of the subjects head





Derrel said:


> ghache stalking behavior
> 
> 
> "Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"
> ...



Yet you're keeping track of all these posts? :er:


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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> MissCream said:
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> 
> > I think it's just because most of the time people who don't shoot in portrait seem to cut off the top of the subjects head
> ...



hahaha, hes building a case on me! damnn


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> MissCream said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's just because most of the time people who don't shoot in portrait seem to cut off the top of the subjects head
> ...



I think what I had in mind was beginners using landscape. If you know what you are doing already then fine! I almost never cut tops of heads off but I do sometimes crop them so that part of the head is gone


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## joealcantar (Jul 18, 2011)

So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this?  Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well. 

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Shoot well, Joe


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > [All the wedding photographers I look up to do over 90% horizontal.  You just saw my senior photos, I did that almost all vertical. But I will continue taking wedding pics with mostly horizontal.  Thanks!
> ...


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

joealcantar said:


> So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this?  Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> 
> -
> Shoot well, Joe



I always feel like I'm doing something wrong when I do that. I think it's just because it's harder to print and frame!


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> ghache stalking behavior...


Oh come on Derrel, you have to admit that even for you, that last post took "pretentious" to a whole new level!

Edited to add:  Never mind #23 just trumped it!


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## analog.universe (Jul 18, 2011)

<3 Square Format


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

I even started a thread about you derrel.  Shut it with these non sense.

Horizontal orientation - FM Forums


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > [All the wedding photographers I look up to do over 90% horizontal.  You just saw my senior photos, I did that almost all vertical. But I will continue taking wedding pics with mostly horizontal.  Thanks!
> ...



MWAC answering yes!!


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

joealcantar said:


> So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this? Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> 
> -
> Shoot well, Joe


...... and what if you only use half the face? Is that wrong?


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> joealcantar said:
> 
> 
> > So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this? Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> ...


  Me too; exactly the reason I went for Mamiya instead of Hasselblad with my MF gear.  I can't 'think' square to save my life!


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

kundalini said:


> joealcantar said:
> 
> 
> > So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this? Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> ...




Pretty sure that is illegal.


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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I even started a thread about you derrel. Shut it with these non sense.
> 
> Horizontal orientation - FM Forums



YOOOOO SHUT IT DUDE!, Derrel went to these famous art school you know. We are GWAC CGWILIWAK AND SHOPVAC photographer. 

Yet the guy is "educated" but talks with more stupid invented abbreviations than CCIE cisco books can have.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

Looks like this thread is turning into a good time.

"Yeah, there were horses, a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident."


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## joealcantar (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> joealcantar said:
> 
> 
> > So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this?  Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> ...


-
If you crop it and print it in a standard frame that can be found easily I would not worry about it (5x5 or 10x10).  Did this shot a bit back and still hear stories about it being rotated to show a particular person on top.  
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Shoot well, Joe


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

kundalini said:


> joealcantar said:
> 
> 
> > So back to portrait orientation vs Horizontal any thoughts on this? Surprised no-one has mentioned the Square Format? and why not use that as well.
> ...



Seriously? Half of your face called. It wants the other half of it's face back. :meh:


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> Looks like this thread is turning into a good time.
> 
> "Yeah, there were horses, a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident."


Wasn't it your turn to make the popcorn?


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

"Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker, ghache!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"

The guy's obsessed with me. He even did a post in which he tried to embarrass me by posting an off-site link to a photo of me and my infant son, but it was reported by Kundalini, and perhaps others, and ghache's post was removed by TPF moderators. He has been following me around here for the past week or so, even going so far as to search through MY POSTS, going back a whole WEEK to call me a "pervert" on a post. Ghache is waging a little personal vendetta against me. I've even left out some of his other attacks on me. It took about three minutes to go to ghache's "recent posts" history,and click on them, and note the URL's of posts where he has done nothing but wage his persistent campaign of personal attacks on me.

So yes, Village Idiot, I know how to use a computer!!! It's easy once you learn how! And the "case" on ghache...you're building the case yourself Mr. Stalker...the attack on an 18-day-old infant being held by his father shows how classless you really are.


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> Pretty sure that is illegal.


Only in South Carolina, Florida and certain counties in Tennesse.  They just look the other way in West Virginia.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Village Idiot said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like this thread is turning into a good time.
> ...



How come there's no link to the TPF mentoring program in your signature?


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> "Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker, ghache!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"
> 
> The guy's obsessed with me. He even did a post in which he tried to embarrass me by posting an off-site link to a photo of me and my infant son, but it was reported by Kundalini, and perhaps others, and ghache's post was removed by TPF moderators. He has been following me around here for the past week or so, even going so far as to search through MY POSTS, going back a whole WEEK to call me a "pervert" on a post. Ghache is waging a little personal vendetta against me. I've even left out some of his other attacks on me. It took about three minutes to go to ghache's "recent posts" history,and click on them, and note the URL's of posts where he has done nothing but wage his persistent campaign of personal attacks on me.
> 
> So yes, Village Idiot, I know how to use a computer!!! It's easy once you learn how! And the "case" on ghache...you're building the case yourself Mr. Stalker...the attack on an 18-day-old infant being held by his father shows how classless you really are.


*
I don't see any problem with it. I'm sure we could ask around here and find a lot of people that feel like you've posted personal attacks against them. And am I supposed to be posting in the largest font available so I can make sure everyone is looking at my post?*


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

LOL.. cant have a link in signatures unless you are moderator!



Village Idiot said:


> tirediron said:
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> > Village Idiot said:
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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> "Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker, ghache!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"
> 
> The guy's obsessed with me. He even did a post in which he tried to embarrass me by posting an off-site link to a photo of me and my infant son, but it was reported by Kundalini, and perhaps others, and ghache's post was removed by TPF moderators. He has been following me around here for the past week or so, even going so far as to search through MY POSTS, going back a whole WEEK to call me a "pervert" on a post. Ghache is waging a little personal vendetta against me. I've even left out some of his other attacks on me. It took about three minutes to go to ghache's "recent posts" history,and click on them, and note the URL's of posts where he has done nothing but wage his persistent campaign of personal attacks on me.
> 
> So yes, Village Idiot, I know how to use a computer!!! It's easy once you learn how! And the "case" on ghache...you're building the case yourself Mr. Stalker...the attack on an 18-day-old infant being held by his father shows how classless you really are.


B


hahahahah! god Derrel, a little bit of self control. yes a called you a pervert! saying stuff like that on a photography forum especially coming from a photographer is not nice..

Attacked a baby? hahah!


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

ghache said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > I even started a thread about you derrel. Shut it with these non sense.
> ...



Schwettylens,
So you started a thread to whine on the FM forum, and in that thread somebody asked you a question and you said, "because I am still learning". So, in other words, you're a newbie, unsure about things, and you're really NOT EVEN SURE YOURSELF about how to compose and how to shoot, and so you're looking around for support from other GWAC's and Forum pals.... Interesting!!! My suggestion: take some classes in design. Learn about the elements and principles of design. Study composition. Study art. Study traditional photography, from people who have been educated. The visual arts have been around for centuries, and yet, you want to find support from other not-educated-in-the-arts people, as a guy who is admittedly "still learning"...  Do you see the irony? Why don't you PM Bitter Jeweler, and ask for some advice? You might be able to take advice from somebody like him--a wiser, older, better-educated artist than you are. : "


why do you care what some random dude on a forum tells you? in the end it's your thing - do it how YOU want it. 

Jul 07, 2011 at 12:09 AM
















Robin Usagani
Online
Image Upload: Off





p.1 #16 · Horizontal orientation



Because im still learning. "


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

ghache said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > "Look everybody--it's my own personal internet stalker, ghache!!! He loves following me around TPF, leaving little comments. Aren't stalking French-Canadians cute!?! lol"
> ...



Did you eat it?


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> tirediron said:
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> > Village Idiot said:
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There isn't?  What?????


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## Village Idiot (Jul 18, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Village Idiot said:
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> > tirediron said:
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You should post a link to an NSFW post on TPF that's called "Tits or GTFO". True story.


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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

the GWAC's gigiliwaks photographer who responded to the thread actually produice some seriously amazing work that you will never come close to create. you suck. get out of your basement.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

this thread is hawtt...  cant keep up.


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## ghache (Jul 18, 2011)

Village Idiot said:


> ghache said:
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> > Derrel said:
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Sure, with a side dish of potatoes.


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## analog.universe (Jul 18, 2011)

ghache said:


> Village Idiot said:
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Interesting match... the last time there was a baby on a dinner plate around here it was just garnished with salt and pepper     :lmao:


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)




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## CCericola (Jul 18, 2011)

You don't have to always follow the rules of design but, you need to know them be fore you break them.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 18, 2011)

I usually I have some great one liner to post, on either subject going on in this thread. Sadly, I don't. 

But I do believe beginners don't really need to know anything about composition. So I guess I agree with the OP.


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## Derrel (Jul 18, 2011)

So, for those who have never read a single, solitary article on composition; who have never taken a single art class; never done a single figure drawing; never studied design or art or photography--here is a web article written by one of the true modern masters of photography and fine art printing of images. I'd encourage everybody here to visit the link, and look at the illustrations, because this article is written by a true MASTER-level photographer,and yet, he has some illustrations that have only become possible (easily) due to computer manipulation of images. This is not the same old dumbed-down tripe regurgitated by hobbyists all over the web--this is the kind of advanced theory that you'll find in university-level, 400-level classes in the arts.

Photographic Composition - Introduction


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

CCericola said:


> You don't have to always follow the rules of design but, you need to know them be fore you break them.


I think it's a little too late to bring any sanity to this train-wreck!


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

tirediron said:


> I think it's a little too late to bring any sanity to this train-wreck!


Sad but true.  This could have been a good discussion.  Although my examples were a bit tounge-in-cheek, they were examples of atypical portraits.  Plus... I thought I looked kewl.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

Derrel said:


> *I could care less *if 90% of self-taught, uneducated, Craigslist and Facebook wedding "photographers" shoot horizontals.



I hate to step in here with a little tiny question.  I know that Derrel is really busy reading all those books on design and composition and art stuff and then writing 3 minute essays that will save the world but I was really shocked to find this little malapropism.

Quoted from Wikipedia - a neat discussion on malapropisms -
Unless you feel that language has no meaning. "I could care less" means, literally, that I care more about something than I conceivably could, which is the opposite of "I couldn't care less"; for a pungent simile for the latter, try "the instrument has yet to be invented which can measure my indifference towards ________."

Actually I do admit to a little bit of curiosity about how Derrel comes up with all those statistics about who has encountered him, etc.?  
Do you think that Derrel makes little crosstabs about who has posted on the same thread as he has?  That must be a lot of work, keeping track of those who may not agree with him.

We probably owe him a big thank you just for hanging out with us and giving us a glimpse of how photography should be done.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 18, 2011)

Pots and kettles...


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

kundalini said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's a little too late to bring any sanity to this train-wreck!
> ...


True, and for the rest of us, any picture of you where we only have to see have as much kundalini is a bonus!!


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## analog.universe (Jul 18, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Pots and kettles...



there's the one liner!


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Pots and kettles...
> ...


But... it took him four pages; he's slipping!


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## Geaux (Jul 18, 2011)

I didn't take photography classes or any art classes, I should probably just step away from the camera and sell it....


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

tirediron said:


> True, and for the rest of us, any picture of you where we only have to see have as much kundalini is a bonus!!



Oh Really????




Are you sure about that???


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh gawd... BLEACH!!!!  In the name of all that's holy... *BLEACH!!! *


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## Geaux (Jul 18, 2011)




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## Geaux (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh, and this too....


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## subscuck (Jul 18, 2011)

Note to self: Never leave any bait er, hanging, for Kundalini.


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

I know, I know.  Centering your subject is just a bad idea, in'it?


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## tirediron (Jul 18, 2011)

kundalini said:


> I know, I know. Centering your subject is just a bad idea, in'it?


Ask Derrel for a critical analysis of the subject!


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## pgriz (Jul 18, 2011)

Kundalini is in touch with his animal side.  Plus he takes a really mean self half-portrait.

Eh, this discussion is not making much progress.  Part of the problem is that taking pictures is so simple - anyone can, and does, do it.  To make a comparision with writing - in our society, pretty much everyone is literate (meaning being able to read and write at a basic level).  However, few of us raise the quality of our writing to the point that it is interesting to others.  While "good writing" doesn't necessarily follow rules, it must be able to understood by the reader, and more importantly, be able to pull them in.  Quality of writing is more than putting a string of words on paper... it is developing a subject, populating it with enough detail to make it interesting for the reader to continue reading.  Writing also has its forms and conventions and expectations, so excellent technical writing will be very different from excellent investigative journalism, will be again very different from a successful pot-boiler work of fiction.  Photography is filled with conventions and informal protocols - and the "rules" that apply depend on the type of photography being done.  It is a good thing, in general, for any practitioner to know what the prior art in his/her field is, and I don't think taking courses and studying the masters will diminsh one's ability or enjoyment.  There are, of couse, a very small minority, has has such inherent ability and talent, that they can leap to the highest level from almost no training - but this minority is truly very, very small.  I remember an artist that my wife likes a lot, tell her that it took him more than 30 years to become an overnight success.  That's what most of us will have to do - read, learn, do, revise, polish, improve, and with time (remember the discussion where I referenced the quote that it takes at least 10,000 hours before one can consider that one is good at something...), we will actually have something that is of interest and of value to others.


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## memento (Jul 18, 2011)




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## Geaux (Jul 18, 2011)




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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Kundalini is in touch with his animal side.


..... and too old to care anymore.  


Mr. Mellonhead put it in a good way....


&#x202a;John Mellencamp - Let It All Hang Out&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 18, 2011)

I just hate to do this but I will anyway. I will go along with Derrel (derell?) Whatever. He is absolutely right. No freaking way should anyone dare be any different from the people who came along before. Let's all create the exact same vertical portrait that does not offend anyone's small minded view of the art world outside of school. Especially Darrel's school...

Whatever school that is because one thing I'm sure of is that we didn't go to the same school. Although I have to admit I only went to mine for, like, 3 semesters. I realized  they had nothing to teach me, lol.


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## Josh66 (Jul 18, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> cant keep up.


They have a pill for that now...


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Schwettylens said:
> 
> 
> > cant keep up.
> ...



I dont need one.. I just need misscream to post more self portraits... not kundalini.


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## MissCream (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh dear...


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

MissCream said:


> Oh dear...


I know!  that's at a minimum 3 erections caused by this thread.  The obvious ones by Derrel and ghace, but Schwetty is a little harder to figure out.  Is it me or you?


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## shortpants (Jul 18, 2011)

Now that I've wiped the blood from my eyes....wait, what was this thread about again? 

Oh yeah. Are people really arguing about vertical and horizontal orientation? There's a time and place for each. 

Sorry, back to interwebz bickering and stalker stuff!


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 18, 2011)

I thought we were arguing about our sexual orientation?


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 18, 2011)

Amazing how many people come here just to masturbate or get drunk...


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## Josh66 (Jul 18, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Amazing how many people come here just to masturbate or get drunk...


Awesome.  Isn't it?


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## Ryan L (Jul 18, 2011)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Amazing how many people come here just to masturbate or get drunk...



I've never come here to get drunk...


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## c.cloudwalker (Jul 18, 2011)

Try it. It seems to work for some people.


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## Overread (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't even know where to start -- let alone finish


Um -- yeah ------ maybe we need a weeky ringmatch setup for some of you - that or anger management classes?


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## The_Traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Kundalini is in touch with his animal side.



I don't mind as long as he does that 'touching' where I can't see it and washes his hands well afterwards.


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

Overread said:


> I don't even know where to start -- let alone finish


Apparently, if you're looking for a Happy Ending, you've at the right place.



EDIT:
Lew, I use only plain soap and I sing Happy Birthday to Me at least twice before I call it done.


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## jake337 (Jul 18, 2011)

kundalini said:


> I don't always have a problem with landscape oriented portraits.
> 
> I don't always have a problem with cutting off the top of the head when it's intentional.
> 
> ...



But thats not you, Its Sean Connery and Tommy Lee Jones AKA Sean Jones!


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## jake337 (Jul 18, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > Kundalini is in touch with his animal side.
> ...



Sure, I recall you stating "For 10 bucks you'll get 3 minutes and I'll supply the napkins"

Kidding of course.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

That was drool I was referring to.


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## Compaq (Jul 18, 2011)

I checked out TPF before I went to bed,
Not expecting to read this thread. 
I saw a pic of kundalini, 
Nothing in it seemed to be mini,

And I j&bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;&bull; in my pants.


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## Josh66 (Jul 18, 2011)

You saw kundalini, then you did what in your pants...?


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## shortpants (Jul 18, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> You saw kundalini, then you did what in your pants...?


Let's not even try to decipher


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## kundalini (Jul 18, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> You saw kundalini, then you did what in your pants...?


As self-absorbed as I am, I really don't want to know the answer that.


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## enzodm (Jul 19, 2011)

But was this shot in vertical or horizontal orientation? 


kundalini said:


>


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## Compaq (Jul 19, 2011)

Did no one get the link to the lonely islands?? :O


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## Derrel (Jul 19, 2011)

What is the difference between an architect and a framer? What is the difference between a surgeon, and a practical nurse? What is the difference between a "photographer" and "a Mom With a Camera or a Guy With a Camera"? The answer is mastery of the field, and education. 

Becoming an architect, a surgeon, or a photographer demands education, and studying, and effort. It is obvious to that the vast majority of responders in this thread are seriously lacking in photographic and artistic education, and have made absolutely ZERO effort to learn anything about visual communication. On a forum where the number one book suggestion is one about learning how to expose properly (what a joke!), it's probably no surprise that the majority will happy-snap along in ignorant bliss, snapping "portraits" that are the equivalent of macaroni art, simply because they lack education in the visual arts. Again, enjoy your Kraft macaroni and cheese and Pepsi dinners! Enjoy your Justin Bieber music! Enjoy your Craigslist clients!


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## ghache (Jul 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> What is the difference between an architect and a framer? What is the difference between a surgeon, and a practical nurse? What is the difference between a "photographer" and "a Mom With a Camera or a Guy With a Camera"? The answer is mastery of the field, and education.
> 
> Becoming an architect, a surgeon, or a photographer demands education, and studying, and effort. It is obvious to that the vast majority of responders in this thread are seriously lacking in photographic and artistic education, and have made absolutely ZERO effort to learn anything about visual communication. On a forum where the number one book suggestion is one about learning how to expose properly (what a joke!), it's probably no surprise that the majority will happy-snap along in ignorant bliss, snapping "portraits" that are the equivalent of macaroni art, simply because they lack education in the visual arts. Again, enjoy your Kraft macaroni and cheese and Pepsi dinners! Enjoy your Justin Bieber music! Enjoy your Craigslist clients!



HAHAHAHA, number one book on this forum? are you reffering to the book YOU tell everyone to read? who the **** are YOU? im a computer engineer, i dont tell anyone on any IT forum to go get a ****in degree before they can play with a computer or even get a job in IT.

Base on the ****ty ART you create, seems like all of the high level art education you did was useless? maybe your should read your great exposure book again


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## Compaq (Jul 19, 2011)

You have very valid points, and I agree to some extent. I wouldn't call education a necessity, but certainly it is beneficial. 

I am careful to express that education is necessary in art. Take music again. Many of the "big" musicians don't have education, but are self-learned. I am not talking about classical music or compositions from other eras, but music that came around 60s and onward.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 19, 2011)

> It is obvious to that the vast majority of responders in this thread are seriously lacking in photographic and artistic education, and have made absolutely ZERO effort to learn anything about visual communication.



Clearly Derrel is much better and smarter and more educated than any of us, being the single person in this thread who actually lives up to his qualifications.  This only leaves the question - why does he stay?

_noblesse oblige_

My guess Derrel wants and needs the adulation,  
He really needs to be recognized for the superior being he is. 
Of course he is angry when we fail to show him the respect he deserves.
He is disappointed when, after he has posted in a thread, others have opinions and dare to express them.

I know that I am a lowly snapshooter, certainly not fit to carry his camera bag, but in my own small way I do enjoy that snapping away.


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## tirediron (Jul 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> What is the difference between an architect and a framer? What is the difference between a surgeon, and a practical nurse? What is the difference between a "photographer" and "a Mom With a Camera or a Guy With a Camera"? The answer is mastery of the field, and education.
> 
> Becoming an architect, a surgeon, or a photographer demands education, and studying, and effort. It is obvious to that the vast majority of responders in this thread are seriously lacking in photographic and artistic education, and have made absolutely ZERO effort to learn anything about visual communication. On a forum where the number one book suggestion is one about learning how to expose properly (what a joke!), it's probably no surprise that the majority will happy-snap along in ignorant bliss, snapping "portraits" that are the equivalent of macaroni art, simply because they lack education in the visual arts. Again, enjoy your Kraft macaroni and cheese and Pepsi dinners! Enjoy your Justin Bieber music! Enjoy your Craigslist clients!



B o l l o c k s!!!!!

Yousuf Karsh:  "Artistic Education" ?  None.

O. Winston Link:  "Artistic Education" ?  None.

Adams, A:  "Artistic Education" ?  None.

Annie Leibovitz:  "Artistic Education"  Studied *painting* at the SFAI.

So Derrel, are these some of the GWAC/MWAC, Craig's List, Kraft-Dinner eating, Pepsi-drinking photographic hacks of which you speak?


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## Kbarredo (Jul 19, 2011)

kundalini said:


> I don't always have a problem with landscape oriented portraits.I don't always have a problem with cutting off the top of the head when it's intentional.I don't always have a problem with blown out skin.I don't always have a problem with white of the eyes on both sides of the cornea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 woah I always thought you were black.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 19, 2011)

tirediron,

Derrel has worked very hard at studying therefore studying and education must be important to being a good photographer.

He is educated and therefore must be good.

Get it?


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## The_Traveler (Jul 19, 2011)

Note that Derrel doesn't post his own pictures here.

Why not?


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## Derrel (Jul 19, 2011)

Studying PAINING is perhaps the absolute best preparation for a career in photography! But, you probably would not understand why. Here's why: a painter must learn composition. He or she must learn how to fill the space of the canvas. he or she must lern the difference between a horizontal compoisition, and a vertical composition. Sorry tirediron, but studying "PAINTING" is the kind of thing I have suggested all along in this thread--you know, painting, one of the "visual arts"...

Adams, A--artistic education--MUSIC...

Yousuf Karsh--good early, later became a button-pusher, and shot a lot of ****ty work, which his assistants set up...

O. Winston Link--cool nightime railroad shots, done with his brother, and zillions of flash bulbs...and note the way he framed his shots!!!

You're normally a smart man, Tirediron. I love how you're arguing AGAINST education and stuydying. Only in Canada would that sound like a good idea! Snort!


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## subscuck (Jul 19, 2011)

The_Traveler said:


> tirediron,
> 
> Derrel has worked very hard at studying therefore studying and education must be important to being a good photographer.
> 
> ...



Is that like God is love, love is blind, therefore Ray Charles is God?


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## Kbarredo (Jul 19, 2011)

kundalini said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > True, and for the rest of us, any picture of you where we only have to see have as much kundalini is a bonus!!
> ...


 Ahhh wtf wtf wtf is wrong you people. No more naked shots. Is this your match.com profile pic.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

Compaq said:


> I wouldn't call education a necessity, but certainly it is beneficial.



Define education.

Coming to this forum and asking for help, advice, and critiques, is a form of education.
Reading Strobist.com to learn lighting, is education.
Reading any book on photography, is education.
Looking at the work of other artists, is education.

Anyone poo pooing education, needs to put the books down, get off the internet, and figure everything out for themselves, and not rely on the teachings of those who came before them. Sure there are those rare individuals that pick things up very quickly and don't need formal education, as there are those who, even with the best education, will never be anything more than mediocre.


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## shortpants (Jul 19, 2011)

Stop quoting the pic if you don't want to keep seeing it! 

I'm not sure you can tell who studied what Derrel. I'm sure plenty of us have backgrounds you aren't aware of. Underneath your anger I understand your point. What I don't get is why this is so upsetting to you.


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## Derrel (Jul 19, 2011)

Lew,
You're still mad about that lousy snapshot of your Asian baby being held by headless, torso-less parent that I criticized a couple weeks ago, aren't you!!!

You're on a nice ad hominem attack pattern today Lew....you're proving the old adage that, "There's nobody as sad as a former military officer with nobody to order around anymore."

Lew,why are you attacking me,personally? As you have pointed out many times in the past, you feel that the TPF forum's membership is "beneath you"...you've complained many,many times about what a lame place TPF is, and how this place is run by "inmates" and "kids"--so, Mr. ex-colonel, let me ask you, "Why are you here?" You're not much of a contributor here, Lew. Lots of chest-pounding from you,but nothing of any value from you. I love how you've circumvented the TPF policy banning links in signatures, by posting two links in a photograph!!! 

Again, Lew, why are you attacking me,personally? Is it simply that your old intellect cannot formulate or deal with ideas outside your experience? Or is it the fact that one now needs to pay a yearly fee to be a member of Nikon Gear, your cheapskate nature has caused you to flee Nikon Gear, and brought you running here, to TPF?

I have 3,500 photos posted on my personal storage site, Lew. How about you? Oh, that's right, you've been shooting pictures for just a short time...

I love your signature Lew, "photography is for grownups"--and then your JUVENILE, no, make that INFANTILE, little defiant act--putting your "links" inside a photo! You're a funny old man,Lew!


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## analog.universe (Jul 19, 2011)

Formal education is expensive.. most of the folks I know who received it are still paying for it.  There's a certain mindset (though uncommon) that people need to feel they've gotten their money's worth, and can't accept that someone else can be educated as well, or better, without it.


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## Kbarredo (Jul 19, 2011)

kundalini said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > True, and for the rest of us, any picture of you where we only have to see have as much kundalini is a bonus!!
> ...


 Ha


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## kundalini (Jul 19, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> woah I always thought you were black.


Well........... I do have soul, but ain't got no rhythm.


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## tirediron (Jul 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> ...You're normally a smart man, Tirediron. I love how you're arguing AGAINST education and stuydying. Only in Canada would that sound like a good idea! Snort!


Derrel, I have great respect for your technical knowledge, and I appreciate your passion. While I do not agree with your position, I am certainly NOT arguing AGAINST education; my point rather was that four world-class photographers (regardless of your opinion of their work, I don't think you can deny their importance) have little to no education in any artistic discipline and none at all in photography. My point was this: _*You do not NEED a formal education to be an outstanding photographer! *_

_Please do not make this a personal attack by making comments regarding my nationality, or your perception of my intelligence.
_
Thank-you.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

analog.universe said:


> Formal education is expensive.. most of the folks I know who received it are still paying for it. There's a certain mindset (though uncommon) that people need to feel they've gotten their money's worth, and can't accept that someone else can be educated as well, or better, without it.



Sure, the self taught can be huge successes. You get out of it what you put in to it. 
What gets me is all the morons here arguing against education, WHO ARE EDUCATING THEMSELVES.
It's also quite amusing the number of beginners who think composition doesn't matter, who think they are breaking one rule while unwittingly following another. 
Ignorance is bliss!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

tirediron said:


> My point was this: _*You do not NEED an education to be an outstanding photographer! *_


I can agree with that, *BUT*, it is *NOT THE NORM*. That is the land of the truly gifted, not the land of beginner forums.
Please make that distinction.
Anyone posting here is getting an education in one form or another.


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## Robin Usagani (Jul 19, 2011)

I gave you 1000th like...  congrats.  Like whore!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

Schwettylens said:


> I gave you 1000th like... congrats. Like whore!



*AWESOME!

*


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## ghache (Jul 19, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > My point was this: _*You do not NEED an education to be an outstanding photographer! *_
> ...



You are right.

However, most of the photographers i follow right now never went to any art school.

I think its alot different from field to field. art? i am not sure.


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## tirediron (Jul 19, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > My point was this: _*You do not NEED an education to be an outstanding photographer! *_
> ...


Fair enough - I'll grant you that.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 19, 2011)

*Things Darrel Hates:
*Canon
Photographers
TPF
Members of TPF
Babies
Canadia
Photographers
Being wrong
People that disagree with him
People that have an opinion
Photographers
Everything

*Things Darrel Likes:
*Darrel
Insulting people
Nikon



I had to abridge the top list so that the post wasn't too long, so I ended up putting Everything on there.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

ghache said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > tirediron said:
> ...



So? Do you think they learned everything they know in a vacuum? They never read a book? They never looked at anyone elses work?

Education is education, institutional, or self taught.


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## ghache (Jul 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Lew,
> You're still mad about that lousy snapshot of your Asian baby being held by headless, torso-less parent that I criticized a couple weeks ago, aren't you!!!
> 
> You're on a nice ad hominem attack pattern today Lew....you're proving the old adage that, "There's nobody as sad as a former military officer with nobody to order around anymore."
> ...





Derrel, did you really gave this to your client? are these really proofs? omg.

jenni_and_chris_proofs Photo Gallery by Derrel at pbase.com

talk about being different. you must have gone to art school a long time.


_MG_0553_1000_.jpg photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com

wtf derrel? helbow cut? thats bad.

_MG_0510_1000_.jpg photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com


HORIZONTAL SHOT ZOMG????????



really nice senior proofs here....

Caitlin's Senior Portraits-Proofs Photo Gallery by Derrel at pbase.com

really? 

_DSC7296_ccPROOF.jpg photo - Derrel photos at pbase.com   you really included this one in your proofs and sell this proffesional photographty to someone?? nice light control on her face. I've seen alot of macaroni photographers do alot better. lol ok im done with this hahahah


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## The_Traveler (Jul 19, 2011)

Derrel said:


> Lew,
> You're still mad about that lousy snapshot of your Asian baby being held by headless, torso-less parent that I criticized a couple weeks ago, aren't you!!!
> 
> You're on a nice ad hominem attack pattern today Lew....you're proving the old adage that, "There's nobody as sad as a former military officer with nobody to order around anymore."
> ...



Derrel,

Do you think that anything you say means anything to me?
I couldn't care less about you - and that's the difference between you and me.
I'm happy and secure in my skin and you aren't.
You seem to need to be right and known for that.

I do notice that you collect stuff and then come out with these tirades.
(This past one was essentially a repeat of the one you wrote when I suggested you lighten up a bit.)
You must feel that you are surrounded by those who would tear you down and must prepare for that.

I do note that the one thread where people picked on you, much as you pick on other people, was deleted after you cried to the moderators.
I won't forget that rather unappealing shot that was included. (in fact I downloaded it)

I'm here because I like some of the other posters and because I like the opportunity to help.
I taught for a long time and enjoyed that kind of interaction and watching people I helped improve.
At Nikongear, where everyone is technically competent, I don't get to help in that way. 
I maintain involvement there as a paid member and a mod; unfortunately I think that your behavior wouldn't be tolerated there.

In answer to your question, I do enjoy poking you because I know you can't take it.
That's cruel of me I suppose but you're a grownup and should learn from your experiences.

Does this mean we're not buddies any more?


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## Geaux (Jul 19, 2011)

I've always wanted to see what shots Derrel has, he never posts them on here.  Thanks for the links


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## ghache (Jul 19, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...




I never said that. 


Now try to be a chemist or a doctor without high education...very few will you are right, 

its all about education. 

The only thing i am saying here is in the art field, you got alot more chance to succeed without any high level education in art schools.. Art is art, you have it or you dont. You can play music or your dont.


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## tirediron (Jul 19, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> ...Education is education, institutional, or self taught.


 To a point... self-educated people tend to find a process that works, usually through a process of trial and error, or researching a specific area. They may often not know why something works, only that it does. Someone instutionally educated may have a great deal of theoretical knowledge, but precious little practical experience with which to back it up. 

As an old Chief Petty Officer I knew many years ago put it when referring to university-educated junior officers just coming into the fleet... "They can give you the square root of a pickle jar, but don't ask them how to open it!"


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

...losing respect for people more and more, with every post they make.


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## Compaq (Jul 19, 2011)

We need to separate official education with personal education. This forum is personal education, heck, taking photographs is a form of education. Derrel means official education, which is paid for. Taking courses, learning the classical ways, and then change path. Sort of like in dancing. When judges compare two dancers, the one without classical education would be marked the underdog. 

There are those who believe everyone should have a classical education to be a "real" dancer. Some words aren't protected titles, but are education laden.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

tirediron said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > ...Education is education, institutional, or self taught.
> ...



We can stop there. Try again.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jul 19, 2011)

Compaq said:


> We need to separate official education with personal education.



Learning is learning. Education is education.


No matter how you try to slice, dice, or puree it.


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## ghache (Jul 19, 2011)

Geaux said:


> I've always wanted to see what shots Derrel has, he never posts them on here. Thanks for the links



and there is a reason why its not posted here.


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## tirediron (Jul 19, 2011)

ghache said:


> Derrel, did you really gave this to your client? are these really proofs? omg.
> 
> ... talk about being different. you must have gone to art school a long time.
> 
> ...I've seen alot of macaroni photographers do alot better. lol ok im done with this hahahah


That's over the line ghache!  They're proof galleries; are 100% of the shots in your proof galleries perfect?  I know mine aren't, but thy're included because regardless of what you or I might like, the client make like something different and they're the ones paying the bills.  Try and keep above the waist, okay?


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## subscuck (Jul 19, 2011)

Word for the day: *Autodidact*

Examples:Autodidactic Profiles - AUTODIDACTIC PRESS - lifelong learning advocate

It should be noted, as Bitter said, education is education. Going to an accredited school is not the right path for everyone. College, University, whatever you want to call it, does not guarantee success. The ability,and desire to apply what you have learned does. Note the photographers on that list, but also note they didn't just start taking pics and achieved success. They still learned, somewhere and from someone(s), what they knew.


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## Compaq (Jul 19, 2011)

Yes. A bike is s bike, but some have motors. My point is that some words wrongly imply "proper" education. 

The term "temperature" is a stare. It doesn't matter how something came to have that state, 20 degrees is 20 degrees. They are just the same, even if one cooled off from 1000 and one was heated from -1000. 

To become a photographer you can take many roads. Some choose institutional education, others choose books and online forums. At the end og the day, both are photographers, regardless of route.


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## Village Idiot (Jul 19, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Compaq said:
> 
> 
> > We need to separate official education with personal education.
> ...



But there is a huge difference between learning the correct way of doing something and learning the wrong way of doing it.


----------

