# A risky engagement shoot



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

asdf 123


----------



## Rachelsne (May 9, 2008)

I like them. was it difficult shooting hand held?


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

It dropped my keeper rate to about 1 in 4.  I would have been dead in the water without IS on the 70-200.   I didn't want to tripod since I like to be able to move freely when I shoot.


----------



## AverageJoe (May 9, 2008)

For high ISO they aren't bad.


----------



## Pesky (May 9, 2008)

I love 2, 3 and 4.  Five might be a bit warm for my tastes.

I think you brilliantly captured the moot you set out for, an evening on the town.  I think that mood almost requires a little graininess or softness in the images.

I would suspect the couple will be very very happy.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

Nice idea but poor execution.  I don't think you gave your clients a quality product.  Limiting yourself to using "only available light" tells me that you either don't understand how to use off camera flash to help you get a great photo or that you're too lazy/or don't own the right equipment to really make a good photograph.


----------



## Pesky (May 9, 2008)

jcolman said:


> Nice idea but poor execution. I don't think you gave your clients a quality product. Limiting yourself to using "only available light" tells me that you either don't understand how to use off camera flash to help you get a great photo or that you're too lazy/or don't own the right equipment to really make a good photograph.


 

Rubbish.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

Pesky said:


> Rubbish.


 If you're into poor lighting, color and pictures that aren't sharp then go for it.


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

jcolman said:


> Nice idea but poor execution.  I don't think you gave your clients a quality product.  Limiting yourself to using "only available light" tells me that you either don't understand how to use off camera flash to help you get a great photo or that you're too lazy/or don't own the right equipment to really make a good photograph.



Dude seriously. WTF. Please do me a favor and not post on any of my threads in the future if you are going to make blanket statements like that. IF you have been in a similar situation as this and can offer a critical comment that is of benefit to me, please do. But as far as I can see, you can not.


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

Pesky said:


> I love 2, 3 and 4.  Five might be a bit warm for my tastes.
> 
> I think you brilliantly captured the moot you set out for, an evening on the town.  I think that mood almost requires a little graininess or softness in the images.
> 
> I would suspect the couple will be very very happy.




Thank you. I know they are already stoked about them. Which is all that matters. I was really surprised at how well the 40d handled shooting at the 1600 & 3200 ISO. I didn't even have to noise ninja the photos at all. I agree that I could tone back the warmth on that photo.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

uberben said:


> Dude seriously. WTF. Please do me a favor and not post on any of my threads in the future if you are going to make blanket statements like that. IF you have been in a similar situation as this and can offer a critical comment that is of benefit to me, please do. But as far as I can see, you can not.


 Dude...that WAS a critical comment.  You're a professional, you charge people for professional photography.  What you posted here was a challenge to your professional skills and I personally don't think you delivered.  You want critical comments you'd better be prepared to take the bad with the good.  

But since you're fishing for compliments, the second pic and the last pic are the best out of the group.  I personally don't care for the harsh shadow that came from your on camera flash on the last pic but the ideal was cool.


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

jcolman said:


> Dude...that WAS a critical comment.  You're a professional, you charge people for professional photography.  What you posted here was a challenge to your professional skills and I personally don't think you delivered.  You want critical comments you'd better be prepared to take the bad with the good.
> 
> But since you're fishing for compliments, the second pic and the last pic are the best out of the group.  I personally don't care for the harsh shadow that came from your on camera flash on the last pic but the ideal was cool.



I'm out. I don't like internet trolls:thumbdown:


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

uberben said:


> You said you didn't like them and that I delivered crap.  Where are you suggestions? Please narrow it down to something that can be taken as constructive feedback versus just being an angry forum troll.


 No, I said you didn't deliver a quality product.  I see a lack of good lighting, poor color and slightly out of focus photos.  

As for suggestions, here's one.  First, do you own a couple of speedlights that you can take off camera?  Do you have any light modifiers?

Assuming that you do, since you're a professional, I suggest that you try placing a small chimera or softbox to short light the couple just enough to give you some clean light on their faces.  You don't have to sacrifice the "city look" to achieve this.  By shortlight, I mean to place the light so that it lights their faces that are on the other side of the camera.  Place the light up high and it will emulate the light from the city.  Place your second light to serve as a backlight if they're leaning on the rail or if they're leaning against a wall, put it near your camera lens to act as a fill light.  Don't over do it, but these shots cry out for some additional light.

You have a good idea, but like I said earlier, you didn't execute.


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

what that so hard?  That was usefull information to me. Thank you.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

uberben said:


> what that so hard?  That was usefull information to me. Thank you.


 You're welcome.


----------



## AverageJoe (May 9, 2008)

I am completely beside myself on the comments put forth by user jcolman. You offer limited insight as to how to improve the shots but resort solely to suggesting the posting photographer doesn't have the physical energy to apply a flash or monetary means to obtain one.

Photography is communication and there is no right or wrong way to communicate your own thoughts, feelings and emotions. I pity you and your narrow scope of the mediums ability to allow self expression.


----------



## Mitica100 (May 9, 2008)

Nice you too! Glad you've settled both for a constructive way. AFAIC, I see no trolling here... Carry on!


----------



## Village Idiot (May 9, 2008)

Half of them have their facial features under exposed..


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

AverageJoe said:


> I am completely beside myself on the comments put forth by user jcolman. You offer limited insight as to how to improve the shots but resort solely to suggesting the posting photographer doesn't have the physical energy to apply a flash or monetary means to obtain one.
> 
> Photography is communication and there is no right or wrong way to communicate your own thoughts, feelings and emotions. I pity you and your narrow scope of the mediums ability to allow self expression.



You and I agree on this: 





> Photography is communication and there is no right or wrong way to communicate your own thoughts, feelings and emotions.



the OP wrote this:



> What do you like and dislike about them? They were going for a more of a "night on the town" kind of feel. I think I did a pretty good job with that.



I told the OP that I disagreed and why I disagreed.  I added my "own thoughts and feelings".

End of story.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

I lied...it's not the end of the story.

First, to the OP...you pushed yourself beyond your comfort zone when shooting this series and for that I congratulate you.  That's how we grow as photographers.  Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on my initial post however I'm sick of seeing people post pictures that are below the standards of most professional photographers only to be told that "wow!  these are really good....etc."   

These shots are very good if the photographer is simply shooting them as an amateur.  However, if the photographer is a professional, that is one who accepts money in exchange for a quality product, then my original post has merit.

Now, if the OP had posted, "I'm outside my element here and I shot these on my own dime, how can I improve them?" then my answer would have been a lot different.

A pro should have the tools, skill and energy to do a job the right way, the first time.  These photos, in my mind, were lacking in three areas, color, sharpness and quality of light.  These are all things that every pro needs to deliver in a photograph every time.

I'm off my soapbox now.


----------



## createnetwork (May 9, 2008)

I like them a lot, they are different in that they were at night, which is great.


----------



## shorty6049 (May 9, 2008)

jcolman said:


> I lied...it's not the end of the story.
> 
> First, to the OP...you pushed yourself beyond your comfort zone when shooting this series and for that I congratulate you.  That's how we grow as photographers.  Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on my initial post however I'm sick of seeing people post pictures that are below the standards of most professional photographers only to be told that "wow!  these are really good....etc."
> 
> ...



he's good at what he does.  I consider myself an okay photographer (not awesome or anything, but i get the job done) and i had to shoot some award winners at an AFROTC award ceremony. I felt like i botched them. My boss said they were fine, so i still get paid and the people will get their photos and probably be fine with it. Kind of beside the point. anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that you cant just expect someone to know exactly how to do something on their first try, and we dont have time always (which was my situation) to get set up perfectly and test out every setting on location to make sure they're exactly how you want them. Its a lot easier for us to decide exactly what we would have done when taking these photos while looking at them on the forum, but doing it in real life isnt as easy. I think they came out good , and a little tweaking will make them great shots.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

shorty6049 said:


> he's good at what he does.  I consider myself an okay photographer (not awesome or anything, but i get the job done) and i had to shoot some award winners at an AFROTC award ceremony. I felt like i botched them. My boss said they were fine, so i still get paid and the people will get their photos and probably be fine with it. Kind of beside the point. anyway, what I'm trying to say, *is that you cant just expect someone to know exactly how to do something on their first try,* and we dont have time always (which was my situation) to get set up perfectly and test out every setting on location to make sure they're exactly how you want them. Its a lot easier for us to decide exactly what we would have done when taking these photos while looking at them on the forum,* but doing it in real life isnt as easy.* I think they came out good , and a little tweaking will make them great shots.



Yes, you should be able to get it right the first time.

This is what separates the pros from the rest of the photography world.  You have a plan, you execute the plan.  If things change, you go to plan B.

 If you want to experiment, you do so on your time and your money, not your clients dime.

Having said that, not every shot a pro takes is going to be good, but the ones that he or she gives the clients or _posts on an internet forum as representing the best of their work,_ should be up to par.

I'd also be interested in seeing how "a little bit of tweaking" is going to correct poor lighting and photos that aren't sharp as they could be.


----------



## uberben (May 9, 2008)

Hey Jcolman,  since you have decide to make it your mission to make this a very uncomfortable place to share photos, I am going to pull these photos. You have overdominated your opinion and its to a point that I don't see this thread doing anything more. I don't expect chearleading, but I am not looking to have you post 8 times defending your opinion with a lot of agression.  

You are kinda an jerk.

Tony cant attest to this, I am doing just fine in the real world and this is a perfect example why I left TPF a while back.

I'm out.


----------



## Garbz (May 9, 2008)

uberben said:


> I'm out.



Don't let one ass ruin it for you. I had a similar problem with a downright rude poster who offered no constructive criticism but felt obliged to attack my photos at every corner.

Here we are 5 months later, I still post, I still shoot a few paid shots, and my clients are still happy when I do. Oh and I think he got bored and left.


----------



## invisible (May 9, 2008)

jcolman, I'm sure your photography is impeccable. You do need, however, to work on your delivery of constructive criticism. Hard.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

uberben said:


> Hey Jcolman,  since you have decide to make it your mission to make this a very uncomfortable place to share photos, I am going to pull these photos. You have overdominated your opinion and its to a point that I don't see this thread doing anything more. I don't expect chearleading, but I am not looking to have you post 8 times defending your opinion with a lot of agression.
> 
> You are kinda an jerk.
> 
> ...



Sorry dude but I'm just telling it like it is.  You're a pro.  You should produce pictures like a pro.

  I hope you leave with a renewed sense of giving your clients your very best work.  They deserve nothing less.  You admitted that you were outside your comfort zone.  Perhaps, if nothing else, this thread will convince you to work on your lighting skills a bit more.


----------



## jcolman (May 9, 2008)

invisible said:


> jcolman, I'm sure your photography is impeccable. You do need, however, to work on your delivery of constructive criticism. Hard.


 I'm probably a lot easier on the guy than a pissed off client would be.  He's a big boy.  He should be able to learn from this and move on.

I gave him my honest opinion.  I would expect every one of you to do the same with my work.


----------



## theadamsociety (May 9, 2008)

Personally I feel like jcolman needs some back up here. The dude posted his pictures, felt he needed C&C and got it. So what he said maybe the guy is too lazy to pull out a slave or a flash or w/e. So what? Everyone knows a high ISO shot isn't going to compare to a well lit shot, and everyone knows that the chances of getting a good shot low light without a tripod is asking for trouble. I don't necessarily come here for friends, I come here to know what the industry thinks of my stuff.


----------



## KD5NRH (May 12, 2008)

jcolman said:


> I'm probably a lot easier on the guy than a pissed off client would be.  He's a big boy.  He should be able to learn from this and move on.
> 
> I gave him my honest opinion.  I would expect every one of you to do the same with my work.



Exactly; if I'm trying something iffy in any line of work, I'm not going to charge the client for letting me practice.  In photography, that would mean no sitting fee and no guarantees; they can buy prints if they like how it turns out, otherwise they're out nothing but their time.  Charging someone for substandard work is unethical.

(That wouldn't apply if they pressured me into the work, only if it's something that I'm doing because I want to learn it.  Push me and you pay double.)


----------



## uberben (May 13, 2008)

I want to just say that You guys that are ripping on me are pretty much assuming that I and my clients like "your type" of photography.  I haven't ever had a shoot that a client hasn't liked.  This couple wanted a moody and dark shoot.  They were stoked with the results and I am as well.  Why do you have to go out of your way to push your style to others.  Maybe I didn't want flash. Maybe I wanted a photo that has some shadowing?  My full res shots are not lacking sharpness and they look great. There is a little noise if your pixel peeping, but I blew one up to 16x24 and it looks great. 

We went into the shoot with the understanding that if they didn't turn out that we would just do a reshoot outside in the day.  They wanted to have some fun and so did I.  It's called being flexible and trying new things when your clients wants too.  I am very honest with people and I don't lead them down a path of destruction

So to the hater's here.  Trying something risky as long as your honest isn't a bad thing, try being flexible sometime. I may get paid to shoot weddings, but that doesn't mean I am a master of photography.  I am learning something new everyday and some of that happens when I am out on paid gigs.


----------



## jcolman (May 13, 2008)

uberben said:


> I want to just say that You guys that are ripping on me are pretty much assuming that I and my clients like "your type" of photography.  I haven't ever had a shoot that a client hasn't liked.  This couple wanted a moody and dark shoot.  They were stoked with the results and I am as well.  Why do you have to go out of your way to push your style to others.  Maybe I didn't want flash. Maybe I wanted a photo that has some shadowing?  My full res shots are not lacking sharpness and they look great. There is a little noise if your pixel peeping, but I blew one up to 16x24 and it looks great.
> 
> We went into the shoot with the understanding that if they didn't turn out that we would just do a reshoot outside in the day.  They wanted to have some fun and so did I.  It's called being flexible and trying new things when your clients wants too.  I am very honest with people and I don't lead them down a path of destruction
> 
> So to the hater's here.  Trying something risky as long as your honest isn't a bad thing, try being flexible sometime. I may get paid to shoot weddings, but that doesn't mean I am a master of photography.  I am learning something new everyday and some of that happens when I am out on paid gigs.



I'm glad that your clients liked the shots.  That's the main thing.  You also now say that your clients knew you were taking a risk and that if the shots didn't turn out you'd reshoot.  If you had said that in the beginning I'd have been a bit easier on you.  You came off as being quite pleased with shots where the color was off, the lighting was sub par and some of the shots weren't very sharp.  

Having said that, I still stand by my critique of your shots.  If your clients liked the shots, think how happy they would be if they looked even better.  A little bit of time spent on setting up a couple of off camera lights would have done wonders for your pictures.

Nevertheless, they're your shots.   If you're proud of them it doesn't matter what somebody else on an internet forum thinks about them, however, you chose to take them down so I assume that perhaps some of what I said rings true.

I honestly wish you the best of luck and hope that you continue to please your clients.


----------



## Parkerman (May 13, 2008)

Had he posted this in the Professional Gallery, I would understand the comments... However.. he did not. Also, I can't comment on the original picture because it was taken down.. So I don't know what he said or what the picture looked like.

I think the word Professional is being used loosely here. I see a Professional as getting majority of their income from what they do.


----------



## Village Idiot (May 13, 2008)

uberben said:


> Hey Jcolman, since you have decide to make it your mission to make this a very uncomfortable place to share photos, I am going to pull these photos. You have overdominated your opinion and its to a point that I don't see this thread doing anything more. I don't expect chearleading, but I am not looking to have you post 8 times defending your opinion with a lot of agression.
> 
> You are kinda an jerk.
> 
> ...


 
I'm an ass. If I would have actually critiqued your photos instead of saying:



Village Idiot said:


> Half of them have their facial features under exposed..


 
You'd probably be PO'ed at me. But I hate the "good game" syndrome that persist in many online communities. That's why I don't post a lot of my photos unless they're shots I really think are good. I know when to step back and detach myself from my work so I don't get worked up and emotional when some one says it sucks...But that's the hall mark of a good photographer, not being so emotionally attached that you think your work is impeccable when it's not. That's definitely the mark of a professional pro.


----------



## jcolman (May 13, 2008)

Parkerman said:


> Had he posted this in the Professional Gallery, I would understand the comments... However.. he did not. Also, I can't comment on the original picture because it was taken down.. So I don't know what he said or what the picture looked like.
> 
> I think the word Professional is being used loosely here. I see a Professional as getting majority of their income from what they do.



He charged the clients money for his work.  That makes him responsible to deliver a quality product and therefore a professional.

Had these been shots submitted by an amateur or had he said off the bat that he was experimenting and not charging the clients, I would have been gentle in my comments.


----------



## shorty6049 (May 14, 2008)

uberben said:


> Hey Jcolman,  since you have decide to make it your mission to make this a very uncomfortable place to share photos, I am going to pull these photos. You have overdominated your opinion and its to a point that I don't see this thread doing anything more. I don't expect chearleading, but I am not looking to have you post 8 times defending your opinion with a lot of agression.
> 
> You are kinda an jerk.
> 
> ...





wait... what can't i attest to?


----------



## Corry (May 14, 2008)

This thread has run it's course.


----------

