# studio strobe vs. hotshoe strobe



## goodoneian (Dec 2, 2008)

i've been looking at the alienbees b400, b800, and b1600 and am kind of intrigued by them since they can connect to battery packs allowing them to be used on location. my current lighting set up usually is an sb80dx flash, which works well, but it lacks the power to be used outside during the mid-day sun i'm finding out. sometimes i have to be at my max synch speed (1/250th) and around f/10, and at full power my flash can't put out enough output to light my subject well.

my question is if i were to get say a b800 and the vagabond power pack, would i be able to shoot at f/10 and above with power to spare? it would be a decent investment but in my eyes it'd be worth it.


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## tsaraleksi (Dec 2, 2008)

I don't have experience with the vagabond packs but I think it safe to assume that you would be able to shoot at f/10--> I shoot a f/11 with my AB heads, generally. To get specific numbers, just shoot the AlienBee people a call or post on their forums-- they are probably the most helpful company I've worked with. And don't forget to ask about the student discount (if I'm correctly assuming that you are indeed a student).


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

There are a lot of factors...like what type of modifier you would be using...but for the most part, I'd say that yes, a studio light like a B800 would easily allow you to shoot at F11 with plenty of working distance.   If power is a concern, you might look at something more powerful like the B1600.


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## goodoneian (Dec 2, 2008)

i think maybe calling them wouldn't be too bad of an idea actually. 

and mike, as far as modifiers go i'll most likely just be using a 45 inch umbrella (or larger if i ever get one) and a softbx


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## JerryPH (Dec 2, 2008)

Why specifically F/10?  You lose so much light and waste battery power for nothing, IMHO.  Every stop down is halving the power needed.  Just going from F/10 to F/7.1 I get the SAME exposure if I cut the power output in HALF.  Using a AB400 (which is 160 W/s), and cutting in in half, you get about 80W/s.. which is a what a single SB-800 does at about 3/4 power!

... and then you discuss portability.  It is kinda hard to envision a 20-25 pound battery being considered portable... lol

Edit:  If you are serious about getting monolights, I suggest you do a little research beforehand.  Paul Buff himself admitted that there is noticeable colourcast effect on all their lights and they have no plans to address it.  Their answer is... use them from 1/2 power on up.  Below 1/2 power it starts to show, but is especially visible in the pics below 1/4 power and lower.  I cannot recall the link, but I *think* it was VI (village idiot) that posted the link to a really long and detailed discussion about it?  

Anyways, I am sure you could google it and find out easily enough.


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## tsaraleksi (Dec 2, 2008)

He wants to overcome daylight.


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## goodoneian (Dec 2, 2008)

for example on thanksgiving i was taking pictures of my sister, and outside it was pretty cloudy and over cast but the outside exposure was 1/250th second at f/8 i think, and my flash shot through an umbrella at full power had to be directly out of the frame which is a bit close for my liking. and i was between 17 and 35 mm the entire time. i would post an example, but i don't have access to my computer at the moment


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## goodoneian (Dec 2, 2008)

i also do skateboarding pictures every now and then since i enjoy skating and taking pictures of it, and for that i need a decent amount of depth of field which is hard to do with a single sb80dx at a safe distance


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

> I'm kinda wondering at what focal length you would need F/10 for to still have an area that would be within the lit section that requires these circumstances?


I think the issue is with exposure, rather than DOF.

When shooting in bright daylight with flash, you are limited* to your max sync speed.  So keeping the shutter at 1/250...he might need to close the aperture down to F10, to get the exposure he wants.  But of course, the smaller the aperture, the more flash power you need.

I run into this problem quite a bit actually, my 430EX is sometimes short of power when competing with the sun.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

Also, if your flash can manually zoom, you can get more range out of it (when shooting at wider focal lengths).

For example, if you are shooting at 35mm, you can set the zoom head to 105mm and it will throw the light farther...but of course, the flash won't cover as much area.


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## JerryPH (Dec 2, 2008)

I understand better and I can see times when the big lights are needed, but there are ways around it to extend the effective usage range before I would consider monolights.  He's not yet maxing out what he has.

- Bounce the light instead of shoot through (worth an easy 1/2 stop or a little more)
- As Mike mentioned, zoom the flash head out, another 1/4 to 1/2 stop or more.
- Add a 2nd flash that's another stop as well.
- shoot without an umbrella (yes it is harsher, but not unattractive light and in some cases it is more desirable), and thats another 1/2-3/4 stop.

With just these 4 things, we went up an easy couple of stops.  I did not see Goodoneian mention the need to light a 30 sq foot area, he mentioned 1 sister and a skateboarder where High speed FP flash could also do some nice things but range is cut (and his equipment has to be able to do it).

I could also add that shooting is often better when not in bright sunlight conditions (afternoon or evening skateboarding shots look incredible), but of course I can understand the desire to shoot when he wants and not when conditions are better.

I'm not dissing monolights, but maybe playing devils advocate (lol) a little in favor of the more portable battery powered strobes.  I just cannot see myself hauling wires, monolights and batteries to a skateboard park for several hours.

Thanks for the great exchanges, so far, BTW.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

Good point Jerry. 

I can't believe I forgot to mention this one...


> - shoot without an umbrella (yes it is harsher, but not unattractive light and in some cases it is more desirable), and thats another 1/2-3/4 stop.


I'd actually say that it's worth more than that.  I almost always shoot bare flash when outdoors like that.  I'll maybe use an umbrella when it's just one model and I can get it close...but otherwise, bare flash gives you the most power and most efficient use of that power.  

Hot shoe flash units loose a lot of power/range when used with a modifier.  As I understand it, this is because the lens on the flash head is basically a Fresnel lens, which directs the light into an efficient beam.  When you stick an umbrella in front of that, it breaks the beam and you don't get the distance any more.  

A studio light, uses raw light power, so it still gets plenty of distance when used with umbrellas & soft boxes etc.


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## JerryPH (Dec 2, 2008)

Big Mike said:


> A studio light, uses raw light power, so it still gets plenty of distance when used with umbrellas & soft boxes etc.



In other words, a LOT more quality diffused light instead of the smaller area that a strobe could cover.  Of all the limitations of battery powered strobes, that's the biggest reason I would have to say go monolight.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

I remember someone over at POTN did a test with a 580 flash and a B800.  The first test was a bare 580 and the standard reflector on the B800.  They metered quite closely.

However, they put an umbrella on either unit and tested again.  The 580 was now several stops behind the studio light.  

I think that's how they did it, I'd have to find it again to be sure.


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## stsinner (Dec 2, 2008)

Forgive the possibly silly question, but when you say strobe, do you mean flash, just as flashes are called speed lights?  Thanks for the info.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2008)

Strobe = flash

Most commonly, I'd say that 'strobe' more often refers to a 'studio' style light and 'flash' more often refers to a 'hot shoe' type unit.  But either ways is OK.


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## JerryPH (Dec 2, 2008)

Strobe, flash speedlight monolight, all mean the same just that some are powered by wall sockets and others are powered by batteries.

monolights are 110v
speedlights are battery powered

flash and strobe are generic.

Oops, see, even we cannot agree 100%... lol


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## goodoneian (Dec 2, 2008)

you guy's do make some good points, yes. but shooting somewhat close pictures of people like the example with my sister isn't the only thing i would like to do while outside and want to over come the sun.

in the case with my sister, i was using an umbrella so yes i knew i would loose some light. 

when ever i do any kind of skate boarding, i shoot bare and zoom the head between 85 and 105mm, since for most situations i just want to light the skater, and not much of the ground. example:






for this shot the falsh was around 10-15 feet to the right of him. my flash wasn't on full power, but i didn't really need it for this situation since it was right before sunset and very cloudy and close to dark.


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## Village Idiot (Dec 3, 2008)

I was using a B800 with a softbox to light a guy on a bike jumping off the back of a truck at about 1:00PM last summer. I had it cranked all the way up and still could barely get the power I wanted.


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## goodoneian (Dec 3, 2008)

hmm well maybe i'll look into the b1600


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## goodoneian (Dec 3, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I just cannot see myself hauling wires, monolights and batteries to a skateboard park for several hours.



i don't go to skate parks, if i was going to be hauling anything it would be to like a random ledge or rail, so it would be planned out and i could easily take it out of my trunk


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## bigalbest (Dec 3, 2008)

In this picture I am using an AB1600 at full power with the small reflector that came with it. It was shot at f13 and the light is just out of the picture. When competing with bright sunlight, the more power the better. The AB1600 is a 660 watt light and I still find myself craving more power in situations like this. You can find the output in f stops for all the AB monolights here, along with other specs.


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## JerryPH (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm sincerely wondering how much the picture would have changed if an aperture of F/8 (and an appropriate lowering of light power) would have been used instead in the example above?

I know that the background would have been a little lighter, but there is already nothing about the background that is adding to the picture in this case... indeed it is distracting a little, no?

BTW, cool ride!


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## bigalbest (Dec 4, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> I'm sincerely wondering how much the picture would have changed if an aperture of F/8 (and an appropriate lowering of light power) would have been used instead in the example above?
> 
> I know that the background would have been a little darker, but there is nothing about the background that is adding to the picture in this case... indeed it is distracting a little, no?
> 
> BTW, cool ride!



At f8 the background would have been brighter not darker. And while I agree about this background adding nothing, I think this is a good example of a properly exposed shot using strobe light against heavy sunlight. 

And thanks, I love my sandrail.


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## JerryPH (Dec 4, 2008)

goodoneian said:


> ...it would be planned out and i could easily take it out of my trunk



Have a friend handy to help you, that's always a good idea in these cases... and if you are using an umbrella/softbox/whatever, make sure you use plenty of sandbags to keep the whole thing from falling over in a breeze.

I think I would crap myself if I had invest in something like that to see it tip over and crash onto concrete or asphalt.


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## Village Idiot (Dec 4, 2008)

We lose at least one umbrella due to wind or bumping at most strobist meets.


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## goodoneian (Dec 4, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Have a friend handy to help you, that's always a good idea in these cases... and if you are using an umbrella/softbox/whatever, make sure you use plenty of sandbags to keep the whole thing from falling over in a breeze.
> 
> I think I would crap myself if I had invest in something like that to see it tip over and crash onto concrete or asphalt.



i treat my gear kindly haha, i obviously don't want to break anything either


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## tsaraleksi (Dec 4, 2008)

JerryPH said:


> Have a friend handy to help you, that's always a good idea in these cases... and if you are using an umbrella/softbox/whatever, make sure you use plenty of sandbags to keep the whole thing from falling over in a breeze.
> 
> I think I would crap myself if I had invest in something like that to see it tip over and crash onto concrete or asphalt.



Watching a strobe on a stand fall in the wind is really really painful. Luckily the umbrella acts to retard the fall enough that it won't do a ton of damage.


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## goodoneian (Dec 4, 2008)

yeah, i have broken one umbrella due to the wind. luckily my flash was fine, but the umbrella wasn't

i learned my lesson on having an umbrella up high even when the wind is hardly blowing though


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## Big Mike (Dec 4, 2008)

That is one reason I don't like using umbrellas outdoors.

I think a lot of people are too afraid of just using bare flash.  If you position it right, you probably don't have to worry about the hard quality of the light.  And you get so much more power/range.


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