# Sitting fees for Dance Studio



## painterskip (May 3, 2013)

I searched the archives and found a very old post, but my question may be a bit different than asking about whether to charge a 'sitting fee'. (or not)

I'll be shooting at a dance studio soon. This will be my second year. Last year I charged a $10.00 sitting fee that entitled the customer to a 'free' 4x6 group photo. This year, I'm wondering whether I should do this a bit differently. 
Several of the dancers either take multiple classes or are 'on company', meaning that they dance in multiple dancers or routines. Therefore, multiple costumes. 

My question is this; would you suggest charging multiple sitting fees for those that want photos taken in more than one costume? Some dancers are in as many as nine routines. So last year I went ahead and shot photos of the dancers in ALL of their costumes. 

Seems to me I should charge extra for extra service. Anyone have a similar experience?

Thanks in advance.


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## tirediron (May 3, 2013)

$10 AND a free print??????     Unless you're selling a LOT of individual prints at a fantastic margin...  I would definitely charge a sessuib fee for each costume change, but offer either a discount after 'X' sittings or on prints, as even at $10, you're likely to get people who will balk at the price.


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## hirejn (May 3, 2013)

Speaking from experience, pros usually charge a creation fee that covers their time and costs for the shoot and post processing, to be paid in full before any images, including previews, are delivered. Everyone has a different way of calculating the fee so nobody can tell you what to charge. I can say that for $10 you might as well pay the dancers to come to you. You're losing money on that. You should take some time to think about your costs and time and the terms of the shoot. Labor alone is worth more than $10 per hour. You also have to price the quality of your images. If they're average, you can't ask what pros are asking. Put your terms into a contract and have the clients and you sign it. This is the business way of doing it.

I would schedule the dancers individually and charge the sitting fee for each for a certain amount of time and guarantee them a certain number of costume changes. Look at it this way: If you allow them three changes per hour and they have nine costumes, you can book three consecutive hours for each dancer. There's no need to schedule each change separately; what would be the point? As long as they're paying your rate, they should be able to book as many hours as they need. A group shot could be scheduled separately. Electing to take on the entire crew at one time individually could be an unnecessary challenge and would likely take several hours of your time.


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## painterskip (May 3, 2013)

I should have mentioned that last year, I took pics of about 70 dancers over two evenings, at the dance studio. Maybe 50 paid the sitting fee even though last year it was supposed to be mandatory. 

This year I want to make it optional. If you don't pay the sitting fee, I don't shoot individual shots of the dancer. I believe that there are about 85 dancers this year and I would guess that maybe 60 will pay the sitting fee and also order photos, based on last years sales. 

So it's not like a regular portrait session that goes somewhat slow and easy....this is all done very quickly. I think I shot almost 3000 photos in two nights. This year, even though there will be more prospective clients, I doubt I take that many. I shoot kinda like a fashion shoot. 

I have read elsewhere (and maybe here), that dance studio photo shoots are NOT big money makers and you have to price first according to the area and also keeping in mind that by the time we do the photo shoot, many of the parents are tapped out and really don't want to think about paying another dime for anything dance related (I know...I'm one of those parents)

Here's a link to some of my photos. The few dance photos you see are from last year and mostly are of my daughter and her dance instructor. So the dance photos are sort of 'out takes' if you will. I password protect the other galleries because that's what most of the parents prefer. And it's also the way most other dance photographers seem to operate. 
I was simply hoping that maybe someone here has tried charging a variable rate sitting fee in this situation. 

Here's the link....
painterskip's Photos : Portfolio


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## painterskip (May 3, 2013)

tirediron said:


> $10 AND a free print??????     Unless you're selling a LOT of individual prints at a fantastic margin...  I would definitely charge a sessuib fee for each costume change, but offer either a discount after 'X' sittings or on prints, as even at $10, you're likely to get people who will balk at the price.



I also forgot to mention that when I did this last year, I gave 4x6s as the free print and had them made in a local pro lab. It was in a Ritz camera store but they are now gone, so I'm stuck with SmugMug. But those 4x6s cost me only 24 cents each.


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## KmH (May 3, 2013)

This is essentially just like shooting youth sports T&I (Team and Individual).
You might use that as a search term.

Each routine is like a different team.


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## painterskip (May 3, 2013)

KmH said:


> This is essentially just like shooting youth sports T&I (Team and Individual).
> 
> You might use that as a search term.



Good point...I'll try that. Thanks.
Oh...except that with sports teams, the subject usually has only one uniform....for one team. Dance is different. Even from say...cheer leading. Dancers typically have more than one costume. For instance, my daughter is in 9 different routines. As are other dancers. 

So back to my original question....has anyone tried 'upcharging' for multiple costume changes. (another way of phrasing the question).


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## CCericola (May 3, 2013)

When I shot dance schools I did a prepay. Packages ranged from $10 - $50. Students with multiple costumes had to buy  a package per consume. We shot 1 pose per costume and we chose the best picture. Much like youth sports. We made tons of money from large schools and like school pictures, the school got a percentage of sales as a fundraiser.

It seems like you are offering g more of a studio experience. $10 for a group photo would be on par with what we charged. Since you said photos are not mandatory I don't see anything wrong with upping your prices. It sounds like you gave them a really good deal last year. The people that really appreciate the professional pictures will still buy and the cheap parents may not show up. But in the end, the people that do buy will make up for the cheapskates.


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## KmH (May 3, 2013)

CCericola said:


> We made tons of money from large schools and like school pictures, the school got a percentage of sales as a fundraiser.
> 
> .


In many types of business, giving kickbacks gets people unemployed, or worse - sent to jail. Many local and state governments prohibit the practice.

Be sure you know what is, or isn't, legal/considered ethical where you do business.


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## painterskip (May 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies, so far. 
Yes...I probably gave the parent too good of a deal last year. It worked though. Would have been better had I not had to do so much post production..but that was my fault and it won't  happen again. 

As for feeding something back to the studio. Since my daughter dances there, we barter. I do their web site, graphic design, recital programs, photos and even props


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## Granddad (May 5, 2013)

You have some nice dance shots on your site, I like your poses and the fact that you've made them fun.  
I do a lot of dance photography, live and studio, because my wife's hobby is dance, thus that's where our contact base is. My dance shoots are adult (as in over 18, some as old as 65) dancers so it's not quite the same but I've put together a package where I'll take my studio anywhere within a 2 or three hour drive, set up in a hired community hall and shoot about six ladies during the day. I suggest to them that they pair up for 2 people in a 2 hour session, that way we don't have down time while they change costumes and makeup. It seems to work. I charge a day rate plus expenses (venue hire, fuel and sometimes including a motel) divided by the number of dancers. What I charge isn't really relevant to you as I'm in the UK but it mostly works out to be cheaper for them to have me come to them than for them to come to me, plus they save the time.

I include 12 processed digital images with a license for them to use for personal promotional purposes.

One comment on the photos, I'm a bit OCD about white backgrounds, if I have loose folds or wrinkles (a common problem as the cotton backgrounds wrinkle in transport) I run over them with a dodge brush at the back; nowadays I make sure to leave some "reality" for them to stand on as it keeps the image grounded. :thumbup:


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## painterskip (May 5, 2013)

Hey

Thanks for the kind words and info re your experiences. Those photos you viewed in my gallery that were sort of my out takes and I'm really glad that I kept shooting, because I feel that they were the more interesting images. Sure...it's nice to have pics of the dancers in their poses, but these made people laugh...and me 

As for the white background. Ugh....I used two Alien Bees with big soft boxes and the background was only 10x20 off-white muslin. With too many wrinkles. So I did what you said you do....Photoshop to the rescue. Except that I really screwed up about half the shots and under exposed them. I obviously was NOT paying attention....hopefully won't do THAT again. So for some of the photos, I had way too much editing to do. 

This year I'm trying a dark grey paper background. For some reason  the studio owner didn't like the white as much. I loved it, except for the editing.


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## CCericola (May 5, 2013)

KmH said:


> In many types of business, giving kickbacks gets people unemployed, or worse - sent to jail. Many local and state governments prohibit the practice.
> 
> Be sure you know what is, or isn't, legal/considered ethical where you do business.



You're funny. No it is not illegal. Just as it is not illegal for the marching band to sell candy or the football team to sell pizza kits or the Girl Scouts to sell cookies. I'm not going to argue this with you because if you knew anything about school photography you would not have responded as you did.


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## tirediron (May 5, 2013)

KmH said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > We made tons of money from large schools and like school pictures, the school got a percentage of sales as a fundraiser.
> ...


I think you're mis-understanding Keith; this isn't a kick-back (unless I'm mis-understanding), rather this is a fee/surcharge that the school administrators demand of anyone transacting business on school property. School pictures, team souvenirs, lunch-wagon... it's basically the business-person's cost of doing business and getting access to "captive clients" since it usually comes with some degree of exclusivity.  At least that's the way it works in BC.


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## GerryDavid (May 8, 2013)

You only mention what you charge for a sitting, but not what you charged for packages?

I found storyboards and albums were popular with those that could afford quality items.

I did a dance studio a couple of times and gymnastics a few times.  One thing I learned is if the owners are happy, get a signed contract for the next few years.  After working with one gym one of the instructors decided since she has a nice camera she can do it.  I was still allowed to do it but since she was doing it only a couple signed with me.  She didnt even use strobes, but anyways.

I didnt charge a sitting fee, only packages.  I charged something like $25 for one print, $40 for three, etc.  This is way below my regular pricing and it wouldnt have been worth while but the sales were usually pretty good and the amount of work involved wasnt that much and it was scheduled in a slow part of the year not to interfere with regular paying customers.  I would prefer to charge my usual $150 for three gift prints but no one there would pay that they were complaining the special pricing they had was "expensive".


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## dewsgirl (May 14, 2013)

painterskip.. I am in the EXACT same place you are !  I would love to know what you decided to do.. as far as fees and your package pricing !  Thank you so much in advance !  I am starting my sessions up on Thursday.. So would love to know how you handled this !!  Thank you so much !!!


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## painterskip (May 14, 2013)

Responding to the last two replies, re what I actually charge besides the sitting fees. Last year, after reading everything I could find on the topic of dance studio photography, I realized that I got myself involved in a part of 'the business' that apparently is the least lucrative. Part of the problem is the cost of dance lessons, especially for those parents that have kids in 'company' We're talking an average of $10k  in costs a year. And since we usually take the photos near the end of the season, the parents are worn out, both emotionally and probably financially. That's my opinion. 

Also take into consideration that this is not like taking photos of a Little League baseball team or Pee Wee Football. Those kids have one uniform. That's easy. With dancers, some kids only take one class, a few take two, and then you have the company dancers where it's not the 'class' that is important....i.e. ballet, jazz, hip hop, etc. It's how many dances they are involved in when at competitions. My daughter had one solo, one duet and seven group dances. 

My dilemma was, in part, how to charge sitting fees that are fair to all involved...including me Would I charge $90.00 in sitting fees for a dancer like my daughter? There's no way the parents would do that....

Last year was my first year doing a dance studio and after studying order forms from previous photographers and some I found online, I was even more confused. Most of the forms I found were confusing at best. Part of that is the nature of the beast as I mentioned above. Anyway, last year I offered the typical A, B and C packages  that ranged from $25.00 to $45.00
The $25.00 package included: two 5x7s, 8 wallets and a 4x6. Several people ordered more than one package and it was SUPPOSED to be for one pose only. Somehow I let them get away with ordering individual photos....from me (as opposed to ordering online). Oh...and I listed as $27.95 if they waited and ordered online. So by paying in advance, they saved a couple bucks. 
I also offered 'online credits' as follows...
$35.00 in credit for $27.50
$50.00 in credit for $40.00
And so on...five levels. 

The results were evenly divided between the packages and credits. And there  was 'supposed to be' a $10.00 sitting fee. I'd say maybe 70% of the parents actually paid that even though it wasn't optional. That's because that first year, which was over two nights, it was a little chaotic because I was promised help to take orders and didn't get it until after I was shooting for two hours. 

This year I'm doing it differently. No packages. Optional sitting fee of $10.00 and the sitting fee goes up if your dancer has pics taken in more than one costume. I only offering a discounted online credit. This way, once I upload the photos to SmugMug, and then send the credit coupons to those that paid, I'm essential done, except for extra orders. 
The credits range from $25.00 to $100.00 and you get 10% off by paying in advance (which is a smaller discount than last year)

Last year actually turned out fairly well. I can't say that I'm expecting to gross more $$ this year but I DO know it'll be way less 'work' after the photo shoot. 

As a 'dance dad' we also go to several competitions each year. Most of them have photographers that sell the photo right there (and you can order online after the event).
I mention this because the prices were all over the place this year. Most of the time they are charging around 20 bucks for a 4x6. Over the last two years, I bought one. Not the best quality either. At our first event this year, the guy was charging $15.00 for a CD of every photo  they took of any dance. We bought two of those and two videos...same price. Great deal. (for the parents) And what I noticed was that he was busy fullfilling orders all day while the group that was charging 20 bucks for a 4x6 was never busy. 

Sorry for the long post....and good luck with your shoot, dewsgirl. My shoot is next Tuesday. I hope my paper backdrops arrive on time


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## GerryDavid (May 14, 2013)

If you can get away with charging a sitting fee, the way I would do it is $10 *or what you can get away with* for the smaller sessions and for the company ones charge an hourly fee and combine it with another dancer.  that way when one changes you can take pics of the other, so no wasted time.

The packages seem cheap but its not so bad with doing it as one pose.  I would be tempted to drop the different sizes and offer x number of 5x7's.   It makes ordering easier and less cropping to deal with.  But I would def offer more expensive items like wall portraits and books/albums.  You cant sell them if you dont offer them, and someone will buy them.

Im not sure about offering the discounts though, thats factored into the packages already, the more they order the better deal they get.

I have also found ordering in person works much better than online, and a much better turn around for those that do order.

I would also get a dance model and do some creative pictures outside at a great location, print a huge one of those to display and offer solo sessions at regular pricing.  

and for those that make a purchase I would give them a discount on a regular family portrait, nothing big, but maybe $50 off a package of $200 or greater.


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## kathyt (May 14, 2013)

painterskip said:


> Responding to the last two replies, re what I actually charge besides the sitting fees. Last year, after reading everything I could find on the topic of dance studio photography, I realized that I got myself involved in a part of 'the business' that apparently is the least lucrative. Part of the problem is the cost of dance lessons, especially for those parents that have kids in 'company' We're talking an average of $10k  in costs a year. And since we usually take the photos near the end of the season, the parents are worn out, both emotionally and probably financially. That's my opinion.
> 
> Also take into consideration that this is not like taking photos of a Little League baseball team or Pee Wee Football. Those kids have one uniform. That's easy. With dancers, some kids only take one class, a few take two, and then you have the company dancers where it's not the 'class' that is important....i.e. ballet, jazz, hip hop, etc. It's how many dances they are involved in when at competitions. My daughter had one solo, one duet and seven group dances.
> 
> ...


Okay, here is part of your problem. In your first paragraph you discuss how much dance lessons are and that basically the parents are broke by the end of season. #1. This is not your concern and should not be a factor in determining your prices. You should not assume anything about your clienteles financials and should only focus on your COG's, time spent, etc. I see this mistake time and time again. In order for YOU to make money, YOU have to decide what your costs are going to be. How much to you want to be paid? How much the prints are going to cost? Shipping? The list goes on and on. It is great to get advice on where to start, but you will never make a dime in the long run without a solid, structured business model in place. This is just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.


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## Vautrin (May 15, 2013)

KmH said:


> CCericola said:
> 
> 
> > We made tons of money from large schools and like school pictures, the school got a percentage of sales as a fundraiser.
> ...



Kickbacks refer to giving a bribe to an individual.

Companies doing business together are a completely different story.  

Or is every product placement in a movie / tv show a bribe?


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## painterskip (May 15, 2013)

Thanks for your reply, but you are making assumptions that one, I did not consider my costs, and two, that I'm new at this. Understandable because I don't always explain myself in a concise manner...far too old to change that by now, but I'm trying...

To answer your concerns though:

My 'free 5x7' that I'm offering costs me 79 cents on SmugMug. Plus shipping, but I'll probably order about 50 or 60 of them, depending on how many parents pay the sitting fee. So add a couple bucks for shipping for the lot...and of course, I know I have other costs like my SmugMug Pro account for example. (and my time). I understand that. 
Oh...and I don't 'ship' to the customer. They will have to pick the free 5x7s at the dance studio and their orders are done online, by the customer, and they pay shipping. 

As for knowing my customers. I would have to say that most of the people that have replied to this thread have never been involved in shooting dance studio photos. It's not the same as say...a friend of mine who shoots only kids. Charges $300.00 for a short sitting fee and then a LOT more for the photos. Totally different deal. Pricing is more in line with shooting stuff like little league sports. I've researched price lists and order forms from other photographers and my prices for this job are in line, but on the low side. For now. 

Now if a parent asked me to set up for a private photo shoot....way different story. 

Certainly shooting dance studio photos isn't for everyone. I simply offered to do it and I do a good job. Better than the last guy, or at least that seems to be the consensus of opinion.


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## kathyt (May 15, 2013)

painterskip said:


> Thanks for your reply, but you are making assumptions that one, I did not consider my costs, and two, that I'm new at this. Understandable because I don't always explain myself in a concise manner...far too old to change that by now, but I'm trying...
> 
> To answer your concerns though:
> 
> ...


I have shot for dance studios and for many recitals. My main point was to base your pricing off of what you need to make to be profitable, and not what you think your clients can afford. Yes, regular sessions are a completely different ball game. I am aware of that.  Of coarse you need to look at your market and all of that but the bottom line should always be the same. End of year=Profit


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## Mjgreenley (Jan 10, 2014)

I know I'm late to the game, but I thought I would add my experience. I actually found your thread because I was asked by the dance studio to charge a sitting fee and split the profits. A little bold request, but, I wanted to research sitting fees for dance shoots...I had no idea they were so popular. 

The way I have run my dance shoots in previous years was to hand out order forms, schedule a week at the studio, and shoot every dancer in every dance routine. The main reason to shoot every dancer was to have them there for the group shot. This, however, created a ton of extra pictures to sift through when trying to locate images of paying customers. 

Why didn't I just not shoot non-paying dancers? Because I would get a ton of requests to view images after the shoot and in return get extra orders. Big mistake on my part!!! This year I have changed my format that if you don't pay, you don't get images, period! I am setting up sitting times and only those parents that want images will come and get their dancers photos taken. My package prices are extremely reasonable considering what my customers get: $25 for the base package gets you 2 5x7's; 8 wallets; a head shot and a group shot (5x7's). And all of my images are processed as if I were processing a portrait photoshoot. 

Here are a couple of my non-standard-posed shots from last year: AAD 2013 - a set on Flickr

I make a pretty good profit without charging a sitting fee. Most of my clients buy the base package, which nets me about $20. I shoot over 150 dancers, at least half with multiple costumes. 

I still don't know if I will charge a sitting fee, but, I did want to comment on a couple other things I picked up on in your posts. 

1. I loved using gray seamless paper this year! I looked great. However, first day some of my older dancers were horseplaying and ripped it...had to do extra PS work on all of the remaining photos. I couldn't replace it because I had it set up with two 9' rolls for one giant 18' drop to use for both individuals and group shots. But, I'd use it again if I had to. I will be shooting individuals only during shoot week with a smaller set up this year, then, groups at rehearsal with a larger drop. 

2. You should really consider signing up to use a professional print service! I don't consider SmugMug or Ritz professional at all (I've used both). Look into WHCC; Nations Photo; BayPhoto. They are actually cheaper than Ritz and Smug and the quality is ridiculously superior!!! I had to get a last minute package request for a traveling customer and stopped at Ritz (when it was still open) and I was embarrassed to hand it over. Do yourself a favor (if you haven't already) and look into these pro labs! I use all 3 for different products. Bay has the best selection of frames, WHCC has awesome textured prints; Nations always has good discounts going on, etc.!


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## robbins.photo (Jan 10, 2014)

CCericola said:


> Just as it is not illegal for the marching band to sell candy or the football team to sell pizza kits or the Girl Scouts to sell cookies. I'm not going to argue this with you because if you knew anything about school photography you would not have responded as you did.



Well it's not illegal, but it should be - especially the Girl Scout thing. Oh sure, they are all sweet an innocent - till you turn them down. Then? Pack of snarling wolves. They descend on you like locusts. Err Loci? Not sure, but whatever it is it's like something right ouf the Biblical account of the plagues of Egypt.

Trust me, it's at least one box of thin mints everytime they show up, or there will be hell to pay! 

Lol


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## robbins.photo (Jan 10, 2014)

Vautrin said:


> Kickbacks refer to giving a bribe to an individual.
> 
> Companies doing business together are a completely different story.
> 
> Or is every product placement in a movie / tv show a bribe?



Considering how bad movies have gotten lately, I certainly hope so.. lol


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## TonyAspire (Apr 22, 2014)

I find that having packages and pre-paying has worked for me.  I use a ROES system and save some money on printing and having packages already in an envelope for the customer.

I do offer the studio owner a percentage with 3 options...  
1... % goes to studio owner
2... % goes towards discounting the packages (the entire studio)
3... % goes towards "the company"
Take a guess where it usually goes towards  (it's not 2 or 3...)

I usually have everyone ordering the 5x7 class photo and many individuals.  I shoot High Key, edit imperfections/wardrobe issues and the studio/parents love it.  Takes a little time but well worth it.  
Here's a gallery I display if you're interested in looking:  http://aspire.zenfolio.com/dancestudiophotography

I would love to do all digital but haven't come up with a plan as of yet.  that may be a nice topic of discussion.

Ciao
Tony


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