# Just Getting Started...



## Shades of Blue

Hey guys, I need some advice and insight from those of you who have been at this a while.

I just started my "business" earlier this month.  I've done two shoots since then, and the clients both loved my work.  They have been spreading the word through facebook and genuinely seemed pleased.  I have one shoot scheduled in January, and am getting pretty positive on the outlook to this point.  Only issue is that so far, these clients have been friends and family.

Which leads me to my questions.  How long did it take you to start getting new faces and regular client work?  How should I advertise?  I have a facebook page and a free domain page at the moment.

I thought about giving the salon where my wife goes a business card as that seems like a good place to start.


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## tirediron

Since you placed the word "business" in quotation marks, I have to ask; are you a business?  Do you have the license(s) required to conduct business in your area?  Do you have liability insurance?  Do you have sold contracts, agreements and releases ready to go?  Do you have a business plan and realistic pricing?  Do you know who your target customer base is?  If the answer to any of these is 'no' then, you shouldn't be looking for clients until you've taken care of that.

FAR too many people think that a facebook page is all that's required to run a business, and while you might (probably won't) make any money from it for the first while, you need to spend the money to have those things in place before you take in dime one.  Your local municipality probably won't care how much you did or did not make, they'll take a guess at how much you could have made and levy a fine for operating an unlicensed business based on that.  What happens when Mrs Smith's little boy trips over your light stand and cuts his head, requiring a trip to the emergency room and stitches?  Do you really want to pay for that out of your own pocket?

All that is NOT to scare you off, rather to put you on the track of how to actually set up a business vice a "business".  Once you've got all of those things done, then you need to advertise.  Heavily.  The market is saturated with weekend warriors, and if you want to make any money, you need to rise above them.  You need a strong, cohesive portfolio, a professional website, and you need to reach out.  

Rather than a business card (which, if you're lucky, might get used as a book mark instead of just being tossed in the rubbish) meet with the management and offer to shoot a couple of sessions with clients, and provide them with prints to display, provided you can also have your name & contact information and a rack of business cards there.  Do the same for businesses.  Print & distribute flyers, and don't be shy about passing out your card at every opportunity.


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## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Since you placed the word "business" in quotation marks, I have to ask; are you a business?  Do you have the license(s) required to conduct business in your area?  Do you have liability insurance?  Do you have sold contracts, agreements and releases ready to go?  Do you have a business plan and realistic pricing?  Do you know who your target customer base is?  If the answer to any of these is 'no' then, you shouldn't be looking for clients until you've taken care of that.
> 
> FAR too many people think that a facebook page is all that's required to run a business, and while you might (probably won't) make any money from it for the first while, you need to spend the money to have those things in place before you take in dime one.  Your local municipality probably won't care how much you did or did not make, they'll take a guess at how much you could have made and levy a fine for operating an unlicensed business based on that.  What happens when Mrs Smith's little boy trips over your light stand and cuts his head, requiring a trip to the emergency room and stitches?  Do you really want to pay for that out of your own pocket?
> 
> All that is NOT to scare you off, rather to put you on the track of how to actually set up a business vice a "business".  Once you've got all of those things done, then you need to advertise.  Heavily.  The market is saturated with weekend warriors, and if you want to make any money, you need to rise above them.  You need a strong, cohesive portfolio, a professional website, and you need to reach out.
> 
> Rather than a business card (which, if you're lucky, might get used as a book mark instead of just being tossed in the rubbish) meet with the management and offer to shoot a couple of sessions with clients, and provide them with prints to display, provided you can also have your name & contact information and a rack of business cards there.  Do the same for businesses.  Print & distribute flyers, and don't be shy about passing out your card at every opportunity.



Thanks for the advice.  I put business in quotes simply because I am still testing the waters, and don't really know where it is going to take me yet.  I am actually doing all of my family shoots for free at the moment and intend to register my business with the city I live in beginning next year.  I am doing everything for free right now and just getting started.

I would be happy if this was nothing more than a way to fund my hobby, and I'd be even more happy it I could keep it as informal as possible.  My pricing is such that people don't have to feel like they are taking a huge risk, and they will know exactly what they are getting.  But, if it takes off, then it takes off and I will cross that bridge accordingly.  As far as insurance, I doubt I will ever make enough cash to warrant it.

I think that sometimes the people who are successful in the photography business look down on the newcomers who have no experience.  I see it a lot.  There are those who think that if a person has the attitude of "I'll do a few shoots a year and make some cash" that there is somehow something wrong with that.  If someone wants to pay big bucks for an excellent photographer, they are out there in spades.  If someone knows me through a friend and wants me to spend a couple hours with them for a reasonable price so they can get some Christmas cards together, I'm your guy.

There is no reason hobbyists can't do this on the side in an informal way to get experience, make a little side money, and have FUN.  I fall into the "weekend warrior" group you mentioned.  If weekend warriorism (a word?) is a big "no-no" here, my apologies.  If I want negativity, I'd turn on the news.

(This isn't aimed at you tirediron, I very much appreciated your feedback.  Things can get negative quickly when amateurs are involved sometimes...)


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## desertrattm2r12

Tirediron is just being realistic. Know any part time brain surgeons? Weekend warrior attorneys? Most freelance photographers are underfunded small businesses. If you're in business then you have to pay the price. If you're not then you shouldn't charge for your work. We are in a sue-the-b*st*rds society and you have to be professional and protect yourself. The IRS ain't gonna think you're just a fun guy if you don't pay your taxes. Likewise your city and county. They likely have rules about doing business.
Another point. The wondrous Internet is lousy at local.  I look up tire stores and get places 100 miles away. But you need to get noticed locally. There are local publications that you could advertise in, get an article printed about a local dude, and so on. I suspect your clients will be mostly local and you have to mine the ore from the nearby mountain. Somebody 300 or 3,000 miles away probably doesn't care much about your services. And try to hook up with local organizations that might have an interest in your work. Can you give a lecture to your local Rotary or Kiwanis clubs about stalking the endangered Wild Haggis ram with a camera, or whatever it is that you do? Turning pro never was easy and it's a real bear today. You gotta hang in there if it is something you have to do.


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## tirediron

Shades of Blue said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I put business in quotes simply because I am still testing the waters, and don't really know where it is going to take me yet.  I am actually doing all of my family shoots for free at the moment and intend to register my business with the city I live in beginning next year.  I am doing everything for free right now and just getting started.
> 
> I would be happy if this was nothing more than a way to fund my hobby, and I'd be even more happy it I could keep it as informal as possible.  My pricing is such that people don't have to feel like they are taking a huge risk, and they will know exactly what they are getting.  But, if it takes off, then it takes off and I will cross that bridge accordingly.  As far as insurance, I doubt I will ever make enough cash to warrant it.
> 
> I think that sometimes the people who are successful in the photography business look down on the newcomers who have no experience.  I see it a lot.  There are those who think that if a person has the attitude of "I'll do a few shoots a year and make some cash" that there is somehow something wrong with that.  If someone wants to pay big bucks for an excellent photographer, they are out there in spades.  If someone knows me through a friend and wants me to spend a couple hours with them for a reasonable price so they can get some Christmas cards together, I'm your guy.
> 
> There is no reason hobbyists can't do this on the side in an informal way to get experience, make a little side money, and have FUN.  I fall into the "weekend warrior" group you mentioned.  If weekend warriorism (a word?) is a big "no-no" here, my apologies.  If I want negativity, I'd turn on the news.
> 
> (This isn't aimed at you tirediron, I very much appreciated your feedback.  Things can get negative quickly when amateurs are involved sometimes...)


I have nothing against anyone who wants to try and make a buck with their camera; go for it!  BUT...  do it right.  You say you want to accept money for services, but don't want insurance.  Okay, try this scenario on for size...  you need a plumber, but money's tight right now, and a friend recommends "Joe" who's a retired plumber doing a little work on the side for cash.  Sounds great, he comes in and fixes your hot water tank, but... he makes a mistake and accidentally turns the hot water tank up to 190 instead of 165.  Your three year old son goes in to wash his hands and scalds himself severely requiring several hours at the emergency room and expensive medication.    Now, you may be more forgiving than the average bear, but if not, you're likely to get a lawyer, and at a minimum will be seeking several thousand dollars in compensatory damages.  If "Joe" doesn't have insurance, that comes out of his pocket.  How is that any different than a client's child tripping over your lightstand and injuring himself?  You can do without a lot of things in photography, but insurance is NOT one of them!  Hopefully in 30 years you can curse me for having convinced you to waste $5-700 a year for "nothing" but if you needed it?  The alternative?  NOT pretty!

As for pricing, start the way you mean to continue. Calculate your costs and set realistic prices.  It's very, very difficult to raise your prices to a reasonable level after a year or two of "a million images on a CD for $99".  Again, I have nothing against part-times, half-timers, or anyone else.  What does bother me is people who take shortcuts.  That's bad for everyone!


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## gsgary

Shades of Blue said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since you placed the word "business" in quotation marks, I have to ask; are you a business?  Do you have the license(s) required to conduct business in your area?  Do you have liability insurance?  Do you have sold contracts, agreements and releases ready to go?  Do you have a business plan and realistic pricing?  Do you know who your target customer base is?  If the answer to any of these is 'no' then, you shouldn't be looking for clients until you've taken care of that.
> 
> FAR too many people think that a facebook page is all that's required to run a business, and while you might (probably won't) make any money from it for the first while, you need to spend the money to have those things in place before you take in dime one.  Your local municipality probably won't care how much you did or did not make, they'll take a guess at how much you could have made and levy a fine for operating an unlicensed business based on that.  What happens when Mrs Smith's little boy trips over your light stand and cuts his head, requiring a trip to the emergency room and stitches?  Do you really want to pay for that out of your own pocket?
> 
> All that is NOT to scare you off, rather to put you on the track of how to actually set up a business vice a "business".  Once you've got all of those things done, then you need to advertise.  Heavily.  The market is saturated with weekend warriors, and if you want to make any money, you need to rise above them.  You need a strong, cohesive portfolio, a professional website, and you need to reach out.
> 
> Rather than a business card (which, if you're lucky, might get used as a book mark instead of just being tossed in the rubbish) meet with the management and offer to shoot a couple of sessions with clients, and provide them with prints to display, provided you can also have your name & contact information and a rack of business cards there.  Do the same for businesses.  Print & distribute flyers, and don't be shy about passing out your card at every opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.  I put business in quotes simply because I am still testing the waters, and don't really know where it is going to take me yet.  I am actually doing all of my family shoots for free at the moment and intend to register my business with the city I live in beginning next year.  I am doing everything for free right now and just getting started.
> 
> I would be happy if this was nothing more than a way to fund my hobby, and I'd be even more happy it I could keep it as informal as possible.  My pricing is such that people don't have to feel like they are taking a huge risk, and they will know exactly what they are getting.  But, if it takes off, then it takes off and I will cross that bridge accordingly.  As far as insurance, I doubt I will ever make enough cash to warrant it.
> 
> I think that sometimes the people who are successful in the photography business look down on the newcomers who have no experience.  I see it a lot.  There are those who think that if a person has the attitude of "I'll do a few shoots a year and make some cash" that there is somehow something wrong with that.  If someone wants to pay big bucks for an excellent photographer, they are out there in spades.  If someone knows me through a friend and wants me to spend a couple hours with them for a reasonable price so they can get some Christmas cards together, I'm your guy.
> 
> There is no reason hobbyists can't do this on the side in an informal way to get experience, make a little side money, and have FUN.  I fall into the "weekend warrior" group you mentioned.  If weekend warriorism (a word?) is a big "no-no" here, my apologies.  If I want negativity, I'd turn on the news.
> 
> (This isn't aimed at you tirediron, I very much appreciated your feedback.  Things can get negative quickly when amateurs are involved sometimes...)
Click to expand...

Going by your other threads it sounds like you only just got your camera and can't even shoot it in manual yet I think your running before you can even walk


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## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.  I put business in quotes simply because I am still testing the waters, and don't really know where it is going to take me yet.  I am actually doing all of my family shoots for free at the moment and intend to register my business with the city I live in beginning next year.  I am doing everything for free right now and just getting started.
> 
> I would be happy if this was nothing more than a way to fund my hobby, and I'd be even more happy it I could keep it as informal as possible.  My pricing is such that people don't have to feel like they are taking a huge risk, and they will know exactly what they are getting.  But, if it takes off, then it takes off and I will cross that bridge accordingly.  As far as insurance, I doubt I will ever make enough cash to warrant it.
> 
> I think that sometimes the people who are successful in the photography business look down on the newcomers who have no experience.  I see it a lot.  There are those who think that if a person has the attitude of "I'll do a few shoots a year and make some cash" that there is somehow something wrong with that.  If someone wants to pay big bucks for an excellent photographer, they are out there in spades.  If someone knows me through a friend and wants me to spend a couple hours with them for a reasonable price so they can get some Christmas cards together, I'm your guy.
> 
> There is no reason hobbyists can't do this on the side in an informal way to get experience, make a little side money, and have FUN.  I fall into the "weekend warrior" group you mentioned.  If weekend warriorism (a word?) is a big "no-no" here, my apologies.  If I want negativity, I'd turn on the news.
> 
> (This isn't aimed at you tirediron, I very much appreciated your feedback.  Things can get negative quickly when amateurs are involved sometimes...)
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing against anyone who wants to try and make a buck with their camera; go for it!  BUT...  do it right.  You say you want to accept money for services, but don't want insurance.  Okay, try this scenario on for size...  you need a plumber, but money's tight right now, and a friend recommends "Joe" who's a retired plumber doing a little work on the side for cash.  Sounds great, he comes in and fixes your hot water tank, but... he makes a mistake and accidentally turns the hot water tank up to 190 instead of 165.  Your three year old son goes in to wash his hands and scalds himself severely requiring several hours at the emergency room and expensive medication.    Now, you may be more forgiving than the average bear, but if not, you're likely to get a lawyer, and at a minimum will be seeking several thousand dollars in compensatory damages.  If "Joe" doesn't have insurance, that comes out of his pocket.  How is that any different than a client's child tripping over your lightstand and injuring himself?  You can do without a lot of things in photography, but insurance is NOT one of them!  Hopefully in 30 years you can curse me for having convinced you to waste $5-700 a year for "nothing" but if you needed it?  The alternative?  NOT pretty!
> 
> As for pricing, start the way you mean to continue. Calculate your costs and set realistic prices.  It's very, very difficult to raise your prices to a reasonable level after a year or two of "a million images on a CD for $99".  Again, I have nothing against part-times, half-timers, or anyone else.  What does bother me is people who take shortcuts.  That's bad for everyone!
Click to expand...


I'm not a shortcut taker...in fact, I'm usually a do it by the book kind of guy.  I do plan to register my business and follow the necessary protocol.  I see you guys relating photography to brain surgery and plumbing.  I get it, I do, but I relate what I'm trying to do more to the weekend warrior bar band.  I was in a band in my younger days and made some side money playing for a few bars.  It was fun and we got some local exposure and it was cool.  I never intended to play arenas or record albums, nor do I intend to photograph weddings and big events.  Maybe later if it pans out.

But just from a few posts I'm wondering if this is even worth it.  I simply am not in the market to charge over $100 for an hour or two of photos, and I don't see myself really having more than 10 shoots a year.  So, is a guy like me just not supposed to charge for pics?  Am I to pay insurance for $500 worth of income per year?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just asking the question.  It's easy for people in the business who have been successful to pass judgement, but I am simply looking for advice for a part time money generating hobby.  That term seems to flare up tempers among photographers.


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## Shades of Blue

gsgary said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since you placed the word "business" in quotation marks, I have to ask; are you a business?  Do you have the license(s) required to conduct business in your area?  Do you have liability insurance?  Do you have sold contracts, agreements and releases ready to go?  Do you have a business plan and realistic pricing?  Do you know who your target customer base is?  If the answer to any of these is 'no' then, you shouldn't be looking for clients until you've taken care of that.
> 
> FAR too many people think that a facebook page is all that's required to run a business, and while you might (probably won't) make any money from it for the first while, you need to spend the money to have those things in place before you take in dime one.  Your local municipality probably won't care how much you did or did not make, they'll take a guess at how much you could have made and levy a fine for operating an unlicensed business based on that.  What happens when Mrs Smith's little boy trips over your light stand and cuts his head, requiring a trip to the emergency room and stitches?  Do you really want to pay for that out of your own pocket?
> 
> All that is NOT to scare you off, rather to put you on the track of how to actually set up a business vice a "business".  Once you've got all of those things done, then you need to advertise.  Heavily.  The market is saturated with weekend warriors, and if you want to make any money, you need to rise above them.  You need a strong, cohesive portfolio, a professional website, and you need to reach out.
> 
> Rather than a business card (which, if you're lucky, might get used as a book mark instead of just being tossed in the rubbish) meet with the management and offer to shoot a couple of sessions with clients, and provide them with prints to display, provided you can also have your name & contact information and a rack of business cards there.  Do the same for businesses.  Print & distribute flyers, and don't be shy about passing out your card at every opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.  I put business in quotes simply because I am still testing the waters, and don't really know where it is going to take me yet.  I am actually doing all of my family shoots for free at the moment and intend to register my business with the city I live in beginning next year.  I am doing everything for free right now and just getting started.
> 
> I would be happy if this was nothing more than a way to fund my hobby, and I'd be even more happy it I could keep it as informal as possible.  My pricing is such that people don't have to feel like they are taking a huge risk, and they will know exactly what they are getting.  But, if it takes off, then it takes off and I will cross that bridge accordingly.  As far as insurance, I doubt I will ever make enough cash to warrant it.
> 
> I think that sometimes the people who are successful in the photography business look down on the newcomers who have no experience.  I see it a lot.  There are those who think that if a person has the attitude of "I'll do a few shoots a year and make some cash" that there is somehow something wrong with that.  If someone wants to pay big bucks for an excellent photographer, they are out there in spades.  If someone knows me through a friend and wants me to spend a couple hours with them for a reasonable price so they can get some Christmas cards together, I'm your guy.
> 
> There is no reason hobbyists can't do this on the side in an informal way to get experience, make a little side money, and have FUN.  I fall into the "weekend warrior" group you mentioned.  If weekend warriorism (a word?) is a big "no-no" here, my apologies.  If I want negativity, I'd turn on the news.
> 
> (This isn't aimed at you tirediron, I very much appreciated your feedback.  Things can get negative quickly when amateurs are involved sometimes...)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Going by your other threads it sounds like you only just got your camera and can't even shoot it in manual yet I think your running before you can even walk
Click to expand...



I've had my camera for several years and have about 4 years experience with my camera.  My "other threads" were simply written to make sure I am on the right path.  I've been taking photos of family and friends for years, and I took a photography class (real film) in college.  I have been an artist my entire life, and have painted, drawn, and sculpted since I could do so.  I've entered and won several art competitions for my drawings and sculptures.  After about a year as a graphic design major I dropped out in favor of engineering.  I grew tired of the pompous and pretentious attitude surrounding the program.  I grew tired of getting grades of C+ and B- for the same type of work that got me "Best in Shows" in the local competitions.  Only thing I really learned from the arts is that art is subjective.

I get it...being able to draw, paint, and sculpt has nothing to do with photography...or does it?  In the end this is all personal, this is all art.  There is a lot of technical details I need to learn and I'll be the first to admit that, but I came to this forum for advice and what I've seen from reading is that people are so quick to condemn.  Why?  Why are we so quick to say "you aren't ready," "you don't know the details," "you are going to fail because you don't want to go into this full time?"

I have thick skin....sort of had to grow into thick skin when I got my first impressionism drawing back in college with a "C" on it.  Impressionism wasn't my thing.  But, I try not to jump to conclusions because someone isn't doing something like I think it should be done.


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## gsgary

We are quick to say your not ready because I looked at your shots of the young girls and they are not even in focus or is that artistic


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## tirediron

gsgary said:


> We are quick to say your not ready because I looked at your shots of the young girls and they are not even in focus or is that artistic


Ohhh...  crap.  Sorry Gary, I forgot to circulate the memo to the membership that appointed you sole judge of artistic merit!


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## Shades of Blue

gsgary said:


> We are quick to say your not ready because I looked at your shots of the young girls and they are not even in focus or is that artistic



Ah...tough guy.  Ever had a bad shot that other people just seemed to dig?  Then after a while you start thinking, well maybe it was a good shot and I'm being too critical?  Apparently, I wasn't.  You are right.  

Anybody here need a camera?  I think I'm going to finally hang it up after 15 years...


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## tirediron

Photography is indeed an artistic discipline, and a background like yours would, I think set you up very well for the artistic side of photographer.  Learning the technical side is easy, so if you've already got an artistic background, then you're ahead of many.  BUT...  photography the art and photography the business are two very, very different animals, and make no mistake as soon as money changes hands with someone who is not a friend or close relative, it's a business and expectations go up.  Way up!

What I think upsets a lot of photographers is the group out there who feel that a camera is an easy way to make money.  This is no different than buying a set of tools at your local D-I-Y store and saying that you're going to do auto repairs on the side.  Helping a friend change their radiator, or putting in new brakes for old Mrs Smith down the road is one thing, but accepting payment for it from strangers is a whole new ballgame.

My belief is this:  If you want to take money for your work, that's fine.  But you should have the basics of a business in place.  If you don't want to, or don't think it's worthwhile for you, that's equally fine, but stick to family & friends and fun shoots.  If you do find someone who really wants you to create their family portrait, then tell them sure...  buy me dinner (or whatever) in exchange.


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## gsgary

Shades of Blue said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are quick to say your not ready because I looked at your shots of the young girls and they are not even in focus or is that artistic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah...tough guy.  Ever had a bad shot that other people just seemed to dig?  Then after a while you start thinking, well maybe it was a good shot and I'm being too critical?  Apparently, I wasn't.  You are right.
> 
> Anybody here need a camera?  I think I'm going to finally hang it up after 15 years...
Click to expand...

If it's digital you can keep it


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## vintagesnaps

Free - of course people liked the photos, they got something for free. That doesn't seem like the best way to gauge your work. Look up other portrait photographers etc. in your area, established photographers that have been around awhile - your work needs to compete with that. Your  pricing could be at the lower end of the going rate in your area but underpricing is just bringing photography down as a potential business for photographers, whether it's full or part time. Or an option would be doing occasional photos for family/friends as mentioned, or for a charitable purpose.

For resources try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA.


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## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Photography is indeed an artistic discipline, and a background like yours would, I think set you up very well for the artistic side of photographer.  Learning the technical side is easy, so if you've already got an artistic background, then you're ahead of many.  BUT...  photography the art and photography the business are two very, very different animals, and make no mistake as soon as money changes hands with someone who is not a friend or close relative, it's a business and expectations go up.  Way up!
> 
> What I think upsets a lot of photographers is the group out there who feel that a camera is an easy way to make money.  This is no different than buying a set of tools at your local D-I-Y store and saying that you're going to do auto repairs on the side.  Helping a friend change their radiator, or putting in new brakes for old Mrs Smith down the road is one thing, but accepting payment for it from strangers is a whole new ballgame.
> 
> My belief is this:  If you want to take money for your work, that's fine.  But you should have the basics of a business in place.  If you don't want to, or don't think it's worthwhile for you, that's equally fine, but stick to family & friends and fun shoots.  If you do find someone who really wants you to create their family portrait, then tell them sure...  buy me dinner (or whatever) in exchange.



Very nice post, and thank you so much!

I want to first point out that I'm not in this for money.  I also can tell you that I've experienced the dismay of photographers who feel that the digital camera has single handedly destroyed the artistic side of photography.  But, just so I am clear, I'm not the schmuck that gets a camera for Christmas from uncle Ben and decides to make "easy money."  I have a deep appreciation for art that goes back to my childhood days.  I see art in everything.

My issue is that I do want to take photos of people, but at the same time I feel that my time is worth something.  I can't just do this for free forever, and am trying to balance hobby and business.  Like I said before, if someone is looking for a certain style of photography and wants to get more detailed than I am willing to do, then I'm not your guy.  

I need to mull this over some more and figure out what makes sense for a guy that just wants to expand his portfolio and enjoy taking pictures.


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## Shades of Blue

gsgary said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are quick to say your not ready because I looked at your shots of the young girls and they are not even in focus or is that artistic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah...tough guy.  Ever had a bad shot that other people just seemed to dig?  Then after a while you start thinking, well maybe it was a good shot and I'm being too critical?  Apparently, I wasn't.  You are right.
> 
> Anybody here need a camera?  I think I'm going to finally hang it up after 15 years...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it's digital you can keep it
Click to expand...


Sticks and stones ma' friend!  If it makes you feel any better....I spent an entire semester in a darkroom in college lol  And I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night...


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## gsgary

Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months


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## Shades of Blue

gsgary said:


> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months



Well...it's more like 5 months, but CLEARLY enough to make me an expert!  No? Really?


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## tirediron

gsgary said:


> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months


Gary:  Lighten up.  Please.


----------



## gsgary

Shades of Blue said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...it's more like 5 months, but CLEARLY enough to make me an expert!  No? Really?
Click to expand...

It takes years to be an expert in the darkroom


----------



## gsgary

tirediron said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months
> 
> 
> 
> Gary:  Lighten up.  Please.
Click to expand...

I'm totally chilled,  just opened a bottle of red


----------



## Shades of Blue

vintagesnaps said:


> Free - of course people liked the photos, they got something for free. That doesn't seem like the best way to gauge your work. Look up other portrait photographers etc. in your area, established photographers that have been around awhile - your work needs to compete with that. Your  pricing could be at the lower end of the going rate in your area but underpricing is just bringing photography down as a potential business for photographers, whether it's full or part time. Or an option would be doing occasional photos for family/friends as mentioned, or for a charitable purpose.
> 
> For resources try American Society of Media Photographers or PPA.






gsgary said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...it's more like 5 months, but CLEARLY enough to make me an expert!  No? Really?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It takes years to be an expert in the darkroom
Click to expand...



Apparently you didn't catch my sarcasm...

There are no experts, only experienced.


----------



## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> gsgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow what is one semester ? 6 months or 12 months
> 
> 
> 
> Gary:  Lighten up.  Please.
Click to expand...


It's all good tirediron.


----------



## astroNikon

You need thick skin if you want true C&C.
The "real" photographers here can be "nice" or can lead you to a "slaughter".  It all depends upon how your portray yourself as an "expert" or a "newbie".

I just checked some of your photos and I'm no PRO .. but I see many issues with them technically.  Whether you did that "artistically" or not, I would think not from your other posts about technical issues.

But use this forum as a place to improve upon your techniques. Not only photographic techniques but your equipment.  Your artistic background can be of great help once you get past the technical problems.

your post such as this


> This could seriously be a big face palm for some, but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to focus on a subject (face or what have you) that isn't centered


Will get your replies of .. "read the manual" and stuff like that.
But, if like me, reading the manual when I got my d7000 a few years ago didn't help.  I actually got a "how to master the nikon d7000" book.  And I read that from front to back and played with every feature on the camera.  NOW the manual makes sense when I refer to it.

And don't take anything from people saying "looks great" (another of your threads).
I have seen some absolute horrible facebook portraits of people that get replies of "looks great", "you're absolutely beautiful" etc etc from their friends and family when in fact, technically (or any way you want to put it) the photos were over exposed, fuzzy, washed out and just plain bad and this was all in ONE photo I recall.  I would never hire a photographer like that again (and the person didn't later on).

So you have to be your own worst critic of your photography.

And on this forum it can seem like everyone else is too.  But take it as positive comments and redo something and repost to see if you can improve upon one particular technique ... like focusing on a subject on the left of the screen either by changing your focus point, or focus / focus lock and recompose.

Also .. when you mention "business" around here then you are considered a professional NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR LITTLE money you charge.  Anything over $800 revenue by the IRS is considered a business.
Income & Expenses
Five Basic Tax Tips about Hobbies
Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions

and you may consider a "hobby" as something at home.
The IRS considers a "hobby" by another means.
then a "business" in everyone eye's is a Business.

But sometimes a hobby that interacts with people requires all the business licenses and such.  If you show up at a park and want to do a "quick" wedding photoshoot, larger cities may interrupt and want to see your business license and City Permit, irregardless of what you think because they see a "business."  Such as this example: Weddings - The Official Website of Central Park NYC

So be careful what you call it and how your operate ...
But overall, there are probably hundreds of photography "businesses" in my area that don't have one permit or insurance of anything and are charging (and most of them probably technically are not very good).


----------



## Shades of Blue

astroNikon said:


> You need thick skin if you want true C&C.
> The "real" photographers here can be "nice" or can lead you to a "slaughter".  It all depends upon how your portray yourself as an "expert" or a "newbie".
> 
> I just checked some of your photos and I'm no PRO .. but I see many issues with them technically.  Whether you did that "artistically" or not, I would think not from your other posts about technical issues.
> 
> But use this forum as a place to improve upon your techniques. Not only photographic techniques but your equipment.  Your artistic background can be of great help once you get past the technical problems.
> 
> your post such as this
> 
> 
> 
> This could seriously be a big face palm for some, but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to focus on a subject (face or what have you) that isn't centered
> 
> 
> 
> Will get your replies of .. "read the manual" and stuff like that.
> But, if like me, reading the manual when I got my d7000 a few years ago didn't help.  I actually got a "how to master the nikon d7000" book.  And I read that from front to back and played with every feature on the camera.  NOW the manual makes sense when I refer to it.
> 
> And don't take anything from people saying "looks great" (another of your threads).
> I have seen some absolute horrible facebook portraits of people that get replies of "looks great", "you're absolutely beautiful" etc etc from their friends and family when in fact, technically (or any way you want to put it) the photos were over exposed, fuzzy, washed out and just plain bad and this was all in ONE photo I recall.  I would never hire a photographer like that again (and the person didn't later on).
> 
> So you have to be your own worst critic of your photography.
> 
> And on this forum it can seem like everyone else is too.  But take it as positive comments and redo something and repost to see if you can improve upon one particular technique ... like focusing on a subject on the left of the screen either by changing your focus point, or focus / focus lock and recompose.
> 
> Also .. when you mention "business" around here then you are considered a professional NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR LITTLE money you charge.  Anything over $800 revenue by the IRS is considered a business.
> Income & Expenses
> Five Basic Tax Tips about Hobbies
> Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions
> 
> and you may consider a "hobby" as something at home.
> The IRS considers a "hobby" by another means.
> then a "business" in everyone eye's is a Business.
> 
> But sometimes a hobby that interacts with people requires all the business licenses and such.  If you show up at a park and want to do a "quick" wedding photoshoot, larger cities may interrupt and want to see your business license and City Permit, irregardless of what you think because they see a "business."  Such as this example: Weddings - The Official Website of Central Park NYC
> 
> So be careful what you call it and how your operate ...
> But overall, there are probably hundreds of photography "businesses" in my area that don't have one permit or insurance of anything and are charging (and most of them probably technically are not very good).
Click to expand...



Thanks so much for that!

I think I may just keep it a hobby for now.   Yes, I do have some technical issues to iron out, and I will get there.  I didn't realize that the word business was a hot button issue here.  Sounds like it is.  I also understand critiquing and how it generally works and I don't have thin skin.  This is an internet forum and nothing more.  You don't like me or my work?  Doesn't change my day one bit.

Anyways, thanks for the warm welcome and bits of advice.


----------



## astroNikon

I did some portraits for a friend a couple weeks ago.  Free stuff.

Technically they were pretty good.  Except I forgot to tighten the background, which was muslin stuff (seamless paper has a distinct advantage except for storage space).  So in some photos you can see it just kinda drapped in the background with some OOF.

So technically I want to bin everything due to the background oops.  I have clips to make the background tight so it disappears.  But she liked them.

On another note, she did trip (though didn't fall) on my background that was curved up past her on the floor.  One of those "insurance" moments.  I prefer outside or at the person's house for shots (then I don't have to clean my basement up too which is used by my kids for everything).

on another note.  Looking at people's "professionally" paid for Christmas photos on Facebook I see a lot of wrinkled muslin backgrounds, some vinyl backgrounds that only go to the floor and such.  And many OOF shots on eyes, faces, and multiple people.  Eye Positioning for family shots, etc.   So people are out there charging and doing work that I would just throw away or at the very least, cringe at and give away for free.  BUT, that's the problem with being a photographer, you critique your own work to improve (and about any other professional, or hobby).


----------



## Shades of Blue

astroNikon said:


> I did some portraits for a friend a couple weeks ago.  Free stuff.
> 
> Technically they were pretty good.  Except I forgot to tighten the background, which was muslin stuff (seamless paper has a distinct advantage except for storage space).  So in some photos you can see it just kinda drapped in the background with some OOF.
> 
> So technically I want to bin everything due to the background oops.  I have clips to make the background tight so it disappears.  But she liked them.
> 
> On another note, she did trip (though didn't fall) on my background that was curved up past her on the floor.  One of those "insurance" moments.  I prefer outside or at the person's house for shots (then I don't have to clean my basement up too which is used by my kids for everything).
> 
> on another note.  Looking at people's "professionally" paid for Christmas photos on Facebook I see a lot of wrinkled muslin backgrounds, some vinyl backgrounds that only go to the floor and such.  And many OOF shots on eyes, faces, and multiple people.  Eye Positioning for family shots, etc.   So people are out there charging and doing work that I would just throw away or at the very least, cringe at and give away for free.  BUT, that's the problem with being a photographer, you critique your own work to improve (and about any other professional, or hobby).




Haha, I get that!  

You know, I think what has set me back the most is how different people's eyes are and what they like.  This is why I ultimately dropped out of graphic design and went into engineering.  I remember sitting in 2D Drawing class and we had to tape our work to the wall.  The teacher made us critique another student's work and I had to critique a piece that I genuinely liked.  I made up some stuff about composition, contrast, and shading techniques on the fruit, but all in all I liked it.  The teacher then went on a rampage tearing the girl's work apart (and eventually mine).

I thought to myself that day, "How can someone tear apart another person's work of art when I find it visually pleasing?"  That has stuck with me ever since.  I see photos on this forum that I think are fantastic and yet, they get ripped apart.  And, I see photos that I don't see what's so great about them and they get praised.


----------



## tirediron

Shades of Blue said:


> ... I see photos on this forum that I think are fantastic and yet, they get ripped apart.  And, I see photos that I don't see what's so great about them and they get praised.


And there you have art in a nutshell.  "I'm not know much about it, but I know what I like!"  Art, and the liking or disliking of it, is purely subjective.  I might love an image that you would look at and wonder why it was even taken, and vice-versa.  

Also, don't mistake thorough critique for bashing.  If you want to see photographers flayed alive, sit in on a PPoC/PPA Portrait Salon Judging Panel.  One of the talents that most experienced artists and teachers have is the ability to be objective (more or less).


----------



## Shades of Blue

tirediron said:


> Shades of Blue said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I see photos on this forum that I think are fantastic and yet, they get ripped apart.  And, I see photos that I don't see what's so great about them and they get praised.
> 
> 
> 
> And there you have art in a nutshell.  "I'm not know much about it, but I know what I like!"  Art, and the liking or disliking of it, is purely subjective.  I might love an image that you would look at and wonder why it was even taken, and vice-versa.
> 
> Also, don't mistake thorough critique for bashing.  If you want to see photographers flayed alive, sit in on a PPoC/PPA Portrait Salon Judging Panel.  One of the talents that most experienced artists and teachers have is the ability to be objective (more or less).
Click to expand...


So true!


----------



## gsgary

Shades of Blue said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need thick skin if you want true C&C.
> The "real" photographers here can be "nice" or can lead you to a "slaughter".  It all depends upon how your portray yourself as an "expert" or a "newbie".
> 
> I just checked some of your photos and I'm no PRO .. but I see many issues with them technically.  Whether you did that "artistically" or not, I would think not from your other posts about technical issues.
> 
> But use this forum as a place to improve upon your techniques. Not only photographic techniques but your equipment.  Your artistic background can be of great help once you get past the technical problems.
> 
> your post such as this
> 
> 
> 
> This could seriously be a big face palm for some, but I'm having difficulty figuring out how to focus on a subject (face or what have you) that isn't centered
> 
> 
> 
> Will get your replies of .. "read the manual" and stuff like that.
> But, if like me, reading the manual when I got my d7000 a few years ago didn't help.  I actually got a "how to master the nikon d7000" book.  And I read that from front to back and played with every feature on the camera.  NOW the manual makes sense when I refer to it.
> 
> And don't take anything from people saying "looks great" (another of your threads).
> I have seen some absolute horrible facebook portraits of people that get replies of "looks great", "you're absolutely beautiful" etc etc from their friends and family when in fact, technically (or any way you want to put it) the photos were over exposed, fuzzy, washed out and just plain bad and this was all in ONE photo I recall.  I would never hire a photographer like that again (and the person didn't later on).
> 
> So you have to be your own worst critic of your photography.
> 
> And on this forum it can seem like everyone else is too.  But take it as positive comments and redo something and repost to see if you can improve upon one particular technique ... like focusing on a subject on the left of the screen either by changing your focus point, or focus / focus lock and recompose.
> 
> Also .. when you mention "business" around here then you are considered a professional NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR LITTLE money you charge.  Anything over $800 revenue by the IRS is considered a business.
> Income & Expenses
> Five Basic Tax Tips about Hobbies
> Business or Hobby? Answer Has Implications for Deductions
> 
> and you may consider a "hobby" as something at home.
> The IRS considers a "hobby" by another means.
> then a "business" in everyone eye's is a Business.
> 
> But sometimes a hobby that interacts with people requires all the business licenses and such.  If you show up at a park and want to do a "quick" wedding photoshoot, larger cities may interrupt and want to see your business license and City Permit, irregardless of what you think because they see a "business."  Such as this example: Weddings - The Official Website of Central Park NYC
> 
> So be careful what you call it and how your operate ...
> But overall, there are probably hundreds of photography "businesses" in my area that don't have one permit or insurance of anything and are charging (and most of them probably technically are not very good).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks so much for that!
> 
> I think I may just keep it a hobby for now.   Yes, I do have some technical issues to iron out, and I will get there.  I didn't realize that the word business was a hot button issue here.  Sounds like it is.  I also understand critiquing and how it generally works and I don't have thin skin.  This is an internet forum and nothing more.  You don't like me or my work?  Doesn't change my day one bit.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for the warm welcome and bits of advice.
Click to expand...

I quite like you, you have thick skin and can take a bashing


----------



## astroNikon

Shades of Blue said:


> Haha, I get that!
> 
> You know, I think what has set me back the most is how different people's eyes are and what they like.  This is why I ultimately dropped out of graphic design and went into engineering.  I remember sitting in 2D Drawing class and we had to tape our work to the wall.  The teacher made us critique another student's work and I had to critique a piece that I genuinely liked.  I made up some stuff about composition, contrast, and shading techniques on the fruit, but all in all I liked it.  The teacher then went on a rampage tearing the girl's work apart (and eventually mine).
> 
> I thought to myself that day, "How can someone tear apart another person's work of art when I find it visually pleasing?"  That has stuck with me ever since.  I see photos on this forum that I think are fantastic and yet, they get ripped apart.  And, I see photos that I don't see what's so great about them and they get praised.


All you have to do is say that you like it.  Then critique it, or vice versa in this case ==> C&C on a portrait please | Photography Forum


----------



## Shades of Blue

> I quite like you, you have thick skin and can take a bashing



Like I said, new to photography, not art in general.

All criticism does is make me want to go grab my camera and take a better picture...


----------



## spiralout462

Hum.  My hobbies tend to *cost* me piles of money!  I haven't figured out a way around that other than quit that particular hobby.  Since that is not an option I will continue to golf, detail cars, and take pictures without charging any one a single cent.  Fortunately, I have a steady source of income that affords me the luxury of pursuing my hobbies.  Life is great!!

I am of the school of thought that business and pleasure rarely (if ever) mix.  If I had to charge for my pictures I could see it sucking every drop of fun out of photography for me.  I would either commit 100% to a new photography *business* or continue to have FUN with my *hobby.*

These are strictly my opinions and should be taken as such.


----------



## gsgary

spiralout462 said:


> Hum.  My hobbies tend to *cost* me piles of money!  I haven't figured out a way around that other than quit that particular hobby.  Since that is not an option I will continue to golf, detail cars, and take pictures without charging any one a single cent.  Fortunately, I have a steady source of income that affords me the luxury of pursuing my hobbies.  Life is great!!
> 
> I am of the school of thought that business and pleasure rarely (if ever) mix.  If I had to charge for my pictures I could see it sucking every drop of fun out of photography for me.  I would either commit 100% to a new photography *business* or continue to have FUN with my *hobby.*
> 
> These are strictly my opinions and should be taken as such.


Photography doesn't need to cost lots of money, it costs me less since I went back to 99% film no more upgrading cameras because I have the perfect cameras for my needs, it only costs lots if your one of those that has to have the brand new model every time it comes out like most on here


----------



## ruggedshutter

Shades of Blue said:


> Thanks so much for that!
> 
> I think I may just keep it a hobby for now.   Yes, I do have some technical issues to iron out, and I will get there.  I didn't realize that the word business was a hot button issue here.  Sounds like it is.  I also understand critiquing and how it generally works and I don't have thin skin.  This is an internet forum and nothing more.  You don't like me or my work?  Doesn't change my day one bit.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for the warm welcome and bits of advice.



It's not that "business" is a hot button issue.  We would all hate to hear that someone was injured while on a shoot and you lost everything.  Because without insurance or being setup correctly as a business, you open yourself up more than you can realize.  Not only can someone go after your business and equipment but your home and income can be seized to pay off their medical and legal bills.  At least taking a few steps by being legal and having insurance, you protect yourself in the event that something bad should happen....you know...Murphy's Law and all of that.  Honestly, none of us want to dissuade you from starting a business, just think it through and how much you want to invest in it and know that if you skirt the basics of setting up a business that you open yourself legally should something go wrong.  That's all we're saying.


----------



## spiralout462

gsgary said:


> spiralout462 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hum.  My hobbies tend to *cost* me piles of money!  I haven't figured out a way around that other than quit that particular hobby.  Since that is not an option I will continue to golf, detail cars, and take pictures without charging any one a single cent.  Fortunately, I have a steady source of income that affords me the luxury of pursuing my hobbies.  Life is great!!
> 
> I am of the school of thought that business and pleasure rarely (if ever) mix.  If I had to charge for my pictures I could see it sucking every drop of fun out of photography for me.  I would either commit 100% to a new photography *business* or continue to have FUN with my *hobby.*
> 
> These are strictly my opinions and should be taken as such.
> 
> 
> 
> Photography doesn't need to cost lots of money, it costs me less since I went back to 99% film no more upgrading cameras because I have the perfect cameras for my needs, it only costs lots if your one of those that has to have the brand new model every time it comes out like most on here
Click to expand...

I agree. I still shoot film on occasion. unfortunately, for me it costs more to develop than digital.  I'm not complaining, it's just how it is. My business supports my hobbies.


----------



## Shades of Blue

Thanks for the continued responses guys.

I think for now I'm going to play it by ear and see how it goes.  No need to get too involved yet in expenses because I am only doing family for free at this point and the occasional friend.  If it ever turns into sessions with friends' friends, then I'll look into insurance and all.  The positive thing is that I'm only really looking at photographing in public places and I plan to have a contract to help disclose everything up front. 

I know several people who do this part time and are pretty good at it, but they make no more than $500-800 a year, which really in the grand scheme of it is my goal too.  Maybe 1-2 shoots a month is all I aim after at this point.  If I get into it and it takes off, then yeah I will spring for a more professional and serious outlook.


----------



## vintagesnaps

After looking at your profile and posts you obviously have an artistic background and ability, sounds like you're working on refreshing or furthering skills with a camera. You can have great ideas but I think it's also necessary to have the technical expertise for those ideas to come thru in photos.

Like the girl in the red candy cane shirt, she's cute as can be and the photo is fun and the quality looks good of her, but the other girl isn't even in focus. It looks like there wasn't enough depth of field for both to be in focus. It might be worth getting out with just your camera and take pictures using various aperture settings etc.

It takes a lot of practice so you get to the point that you know what to do and don't have to think about it too much, you just know it. I think it's a process of getting proficient with the camera, and learning the business aspects of it while you're doing some practice portraits with family, etc. Then go into business, even if it's a sideline, so you can be successful.


----------



## Shades of Blue

vintagesnaps said:


> After looking at your profile and posts you obviously have an artistic background and ability, sounds like you're working on refreshing or furthering skills with a camera. You can have great ideas but I think it's also necessary to have the technical expertise for those ideas to come thru in photos.
> 
> Like the girl in the red candy cane shirt, she's cute as can be and the photo is fun and the quality looks good of her, but the other girl isn't even in focus. It looks like there wasn't enough depth of field for both to be in focus. It might be worth getting out with just your camera and take pictures using various aperture settings etc.
> 
> It takes a lot of practice so you get to the point that you know what to do and don't have to think about it too much, you just know it. I think it's a process of getting proficient with the camera, and learning the business aspects of it while you're doing some practice portraits with family, etc. Then go into business, even if it's a sideline, so you can be successful.



Thanks for that!  You pretty much hit it on the head from my perspective.

Here is the story of the photo with the "girls" (the one on the left is actually a boy).  Neither of the kids wanted anything to do with that shoot.   They were the first people to come forward and ask me to take their photos that weren't direct friends or family.   Out of 200 or so photos, I got 28 that weren't of them crying or looking scornful.  That shot was the shot that the mother loved and she was so happy with it.  I posted here because I am new and wanted some thoughts.  What sort of threw me was the immediate almost "how dare you post this junk."  I also wasn't expecting so many comments on "strange crop" and "get rid of the bench."  I wanted the crop the way it was and I wanted the bench in the shot or I wouldn't have put them there....

It was taken with a 55-200 lens at about 175mm.  I had her attention for about 20 seconds with the best smile I got all day after a promised lollipop from the parents.  That was the best picture because I had the aperture at f4 trying to get a blurry background....well, the foreground was blurry too.  Bottom line, the blurry picture of the boy didn't seem to bother the mother and I thought it was a decent composition, but yes I admit the focus is terrible, and I was nearing the end of the focal length of the lens and that didn't help.

I play guitar as well, and I know lots of scales and modes.  It's learning when and where to use the scales in a song that is the most difficult part.  Same with photography for me so far.


----------

