# What May End Film Photography Is Manufacturing of Film



## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

I posted some of this on another forum, and will try and make it more concise here.

Manufacturing film requires substantial capital investment and commitment. Though it may be possible to scale down using simpler processes, this will end up making film very expensive. Today film (and print paper, etc.) is produced on huge coating lines (illustrated is a typical coating line, likely NOT for film).







The heart of the system is called slide curtain coating.  The layers of emulsion need to be coated onto the cellulose base in a manufacturing operation. Kodak, Fuji, Polaroid, and others were experts in operating this type of equipment.

The layers are fed into the rear in pipes then distribute across the web width internally (not sure what widths the photo manufacturers used, maybe 1 m to 2 m), then they came out the exit slots where they stacked without mixing, then slid down the slide, and fell as a curtain to the cellulose or other substrate below, which was moving (not sure what speed, maybe 500-1000 meters/minute). I suppose some operations could coat and dry a single layer at a time, but my understanding is the more advanced companies coated all layers at once. Slide dies can build up many layers. Note curtain coating does not work at low speeds.

I am very familiar with the die coating process (mainly slot and curtain dies), but not in the photographic industry.






Fuji patent: Patent US6607786 - Method of curtain coating






Here is an article that shows some images of a Kodak photographic paper coating line in London (Harrow). They do not show any details of the coating operation, which is the heart of the line. Generally, coating companies keep that type of information fairly proprietary.

Kodak Factory, Harrow, London


Here is the same for an Ilford line ( looks like ~1 m line). Again, they do not show the actual coating operation.

The tech of photo paper: how it's made | TechRadar


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## webestang64 (Apr 25, 2018)

As long as I'm alive and film is available (which it will be) it's all good.


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## pixmedic (Apr 25, 2018)

the film is dead! long live the film!


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## compur (Apr 25, 2018)

And, digital gear costs nothing to produce. It just appears out of thin air and floats down from the sky, softly landing on dealers' shelves.


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

compur said:


> And, digital gear costs nothing to produce. It just appears out of thin air and floats down from the sky, softly landing on dealers' shelves.



Digital equipment is in the money right now- film is not. The point is not that something has to be manufactured, rather it is that the market has to support the manufacturing. Digital equipment is part of the current tech ecosystem (chips, sensors, batteries, etc.), and thus is supported readily. Manufacturing silver halide emulsion coatings is very specialized.

I suspect as long as there is an interest in film, someone will figure out a way to keep manufacturing it. On the other hand choices become (and already are) limited, and costs may increase substantially over time.

With the current [apparent] uptick in interest in film, there may be some good opportunities to start new film lines or take over existing ones to feed this.


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2018)

So what are you trying to say?  Film is dying and all the plants should just be shut down?  Or film is alive a kicking and ripe for new players?


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

480sparky said:


> So what are you trying to say?  Film is dying and all the plants should just be shut down?  Or film is alive a kicking and ripe for new players?



Neither. 

If film dies out, it will likely be due to lack of demand, and thus making it economically impractical to maintain high volume production. On the other hand, I did mention that there appears to be an uptick in interest for using film. 

My post is mainly informative, and not intended to be a projection. I personally hope film continues far into the future.


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## compur (Apr 25, 2018)

markjwyatt said:


> The point is not that something has to be manufactured, rather it is that the market has to support the manufacturing.



 That's startling news. Be sure to post it on _other_ forums.


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2018)

markjwyatt said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > So what are you trying to say?  Film is dying and all the plants should just be shut down?  Or film is alive a kicking and ripe for new players?
> ...



Oh, you mean like 8-track audio tapes and floppy disks?


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

compur said:


> markjwyatt said:
> 
> 
> > The point is not that something has to be manufactured, rather it is that the market has to support the manufacturing.
> ...



Aren't you the snarky one, ? I would have thought that a sub-forum discussing film photography at a time of declining film availability would support some discussion of manufacturing film!


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

480sparky said:


> markjwyatt said:
> 
> 
> > 480sparky said:
> ...



Bingo. 

On the other hand, I doubt you will find to many audio forums with active sub-forums on 8-track tapes (though I am sure you will find some), nor computer forums lamenting the loss of floppy disks!


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## Vtec44 (Apr 25, 2018)

Like anything in business, supply and demand.  So it seems like what may end film photography is demand.


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## Vtec44 (Apr 25, 2018)

... and on that demand note, it seems like the demand for film is back up again...

This Is Why Film Photography Is Making a Comeback

"“We’re seeing film growth of 5% year-on-year globally,” says Giles Branthwaite, the sales and marketing director at Harman. “Our professional film sales have been increasing over the last two or three years,” confirms Dennis Olbrich, president of Kodak Alaris’ imaging, paper, photo chemicals and film division."


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

Vtec44 said:


> Like anything in business, supply and demand.  So it seems like what may end film photography is demand.



Also technology replacement. I suspect one of the things that keeps film alive is the abundance of amazing equipment at bargain prices. Many of the better lenses are getting repurposed for digital (in manual focus mode).

8-track got replaced by cassette, but few lost music. Floppies were replaced by 3 1/2"", then thumb drives, but few lost all their data. The transition from film is a little less gentle, like the end of horse carriages almost; at least from the perspective of film manufacturers.

One thing that could set film back further is if someone can start producing reasonably priced digital conversions for some of the more attractive cameras.


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2018)

markjwyatt said:


> I would have thought that a sub-forum discussing film photography at a time of declining film availability would support some discussion of manufacturing film!



But what's to discuss?  If demand for film starts to decline past a certain point, the makers will close their shops.  Happens every day in a free economy.  There's nothing new or earth-shattering about this.


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## cgw (Apr 25, 2018)

Vtec44 said:


> ... and on that demand note, it seems like the demand for film is back up again...
> 
> This Is Why Film Photography Is Making a Comeback
> 
> "“We’re seeing film growth of 5% year-on-year globally,” says Giles Branthwaite, the sales and marketing director at Harman. “Our professional film sales have been increasing over the last two or three years,” confirms Dennis Olbrich, president of Kodak Alaris’ imaging, paper, photo chemicals and film division."


 
That article...I get kicked and punched regularly for arguing that the "Comeback" is largely misleading and too often used to support pure magical thinking. Why? "Five" percent of what? Sales? Production? Can't tell? What's the baseline above which the 5% rose--i.e., how was the increase calculated? Don't say. We're supposedly at 2% of the nearly 1 billion rolls cranked out over the late 90s-early 2000s. Anyone go over the falls with those almost 20 years of subsequent collapse? I did. Probably the most telling index of the damage was the widespread closing of labs over the same years. Funny how they're not reviving if demand is recovering so briskly. We're in a residual market now, long-tail stuff, where small demand amounts to enough to support a few players whose production and services are right-sized. Happy as hell I can still get a great variety of film materials and top-shelf pro lab service here in downtown Toronto. Problem is, they're no longer on offer nearby in the 'burbs. Ilford will ride it out to the end. Kodak? Still wondering if the VCs will axe still film. Fuji doesn't need film to be profitable.


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## limr (Apr 25, 2018)

Le sigh.

I know this thread was started with the good intention of someone trying to be helpful and informative. Having said that, I can no longer help myself...


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## john.margetts (Apr 25, 2018)

The Italian Ferrania project is using a coating machine intended to produce test quantities of new film formulations rather than an old fashioned industrial run . This means that they cannot produce film in the quantities that Fuji and Kodak do but it also means that they can produce small runs economically.

Sent from my 8070 using Tapatalk


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

480sparky said:


> ...But what's to discuss? ...



There is something to discuss if you prefer to shoot film. Of course, one question is 'what can you do about it'. Last I checked this is considered a discussion forum (more specifically a photography [discussion] forum).


john.margetts said:


> The Italian Ferrania project is using a coating machine intended to produce test quantities of new film formulations rather than an old fashioned . This means that they cannot produce film in the quantities that Fuji and Kodak do but it also means that they can produce small runs economically.
> 
> Sent from my 8070 using Tapatalk



This may be a model of the future- boutique film production. Maybe not even on a regular basis. I can see photoblogs announcing Such-and-such film producers just produced 100,000 rolls of their blankety-blank super color 100 120 film. $30/ roll.


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

john.margetts said:


> The Italian Ferrania project is using a coating machine intended to produce test quantities of new film formulations rather than an old fashioned industrial run . This means that they cannot produce film in the quantities that Fuji and Kodak do but it also means that they can produce small runs economically.
> 
> Sent from my 8070 using Tapatalk



Here is a film showing what you are talking about. Very interesting.


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## Vtec44 (Apr 25, 2018)

cgw said:


> Vtec44 said:
> 
> 
> > ... and on that demand note, it seems like the demand for film is back up again...
> ...



Maybe 5% from the previous year.  The article was published in Jan 2017, so 19m rolls of market demand annually at that time, so assuming it's growing 5% annually again from that.  It will never be back to its old film glory day but it won't just disappear completely either for now.  It's like radio vs TV when TV first came out.

BTW, take a deep breath!


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

From this document on the Ferrania LRF (Little Boy): https://www.filmferrania.it/s/The_LRF.pdf

"We call the old Ferrania coater, “Big Boy,” and he sits in a building the size of an American football field. When Big Boy is powered up, hundreds of feet of film are wasted while getting up to operating speed. He produces a roll of film* 1.38 meters wide*, of which only the center 1.3 meters are actually used. This means that while Big Boy was making film, for over 50 years, he was also wasting thousands upon thousands of exposures.

Big Boy was built to run 24/7 with minimal stoppage. Of course, running Big Boy all the time also wasted a lot of electricity. So much so that Ferrania had their own power plant. Making film is also one of the most complex chemical processes ever invented - with a hundred or more different chemicals combining into *20 or so individually applied layers to produce an emulsion that is less than the width of a human hair. *Consistently. For miles and miles and miles of seamless production. For Ferrania to produce this miracle substance at a reasonable price with Big Boy, they literally had to make hundreds of kilometers of film before they could switch to another film type..."

"...In order to produce new products and reduce waste, Ferrania’s chefs needed a new kitchen. In 1966, the 3M Corporation gave them one - The L.R.F.

L.R.F is an acronym for Laboratorio Ricerche Fotografiche. In English, it’s simply “Photo Research Laboratory” - but we think you’ll agree that the Italian has a bit more flair. *This building contains an exact copy, in miniature, of the primary industrial coating facility in the adjacent building*."


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## 480sparky (Apr 25, 2018)

So.............. us film aficionados are all now supposed to go out and............ do what?  Learn how film is manufactured?

While it may be a fascinating subject to a few, it's mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of us analog fans.


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

480sparky said:


> So.............. us film aficionados are all now supposed to go out and............ do what?  Learn how film is manufactured?...



Nope. Furthering your education is completely optional.


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## compur (Apr 25, 2018)

markjwyatt said:


> Aren't you the snarky one, ? I would have thought that a sub-forum discussing film photography at a time of declining film availability would support some discussion of manufacturing film!



It's an old over-discussed topic around here and at least some of us have grown tired of it.

We know that film sales aren't what they used to be.
We know that future film manufacturing depends on user interest.
We know that film sales have resurged somewhat (or not, depending on who you believe).
We know that many films have been discontinued due to insufficient sales.
And, we know that manufacturing film isn't cheap or easy.

The above points have been raised and re-raised previously on this forum and discusses ad-nauseum. Hence the grouchy reception for your revelations.


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## cgw (Apr 25, 2018)

limr said:


> Le sigh.
> 
> I know this thread was started with the good intention of someone trying to be helpful and informative. Having said that, I can no longer help myself...
> 
> View attachment 156869


Everyone has the right to be tiresome occasionally, right?


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## cgw (Apr 25, 2018)

markjwyatt said:


> 480sparky said:
> 
> 
> > So.............. us film aficionados are all now supposed to go out and............ do what?  Learn how film is manufactured?...
> ...


 The Ferrania info is all old news, sorry. You shoud research how long they strung people along before actually making something.


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## markjwyatt (Apr 25, 2018)

compur said:


> ...We know that film sales aren't what they used to be.
> We know that future film manufacturing depends on user interest.
> We know that film sales have resurged somewhat (or not, depending on who you believe).
> We know that many films have been discontinued due to insufficient sales.
> And, we know that manufacturing film isn't cheap or easy...



If you read the OP, it is more about the actual manufacturing process than any of those things. But, in any case, point taken.


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## Derrel (Apr 25, 2018)

I sense a huge amount of butt-hurt in this thread...


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## Dave Colangelo (May 2, 2018)

Im sure they will stop making film one day....

and approximately 1 month later I will start making it in my garage...


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## markjwyatt (May 2, 2018)

Boutique film production. Kind of like craft beer. Higher price, less availability, but more fun and interesting.


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## Grandpa Ron (Aug 20, 2018)

As long as there are film junkies there will be film. Maybe not as good or as technically superior as today' films but Ansell Adams seem to get by with what was on the market in his day.

It is the fun of doing it the old way, that keeps many folks tinkering with film.


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## 480sparky (Aug 20, 2018)

Keep in mind there are those who don't even buy film.

They _make their own_.


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