# Motocross



## MartinCrabtree (Jun 24, 2013)

High Point Raceway 6/8/13 250 Moto 1


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm shooting AMA at Southwick, will you be there?


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## SCraig (Jun 24, 2013)

The second one is very good.  The first needs a slower shutter speed to allow the spokes to blur showing motion.  No EXIF data on either so I don't know what you shot them at, but if you pan with your subject you should be able to get below 1/100 second.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 24, 2013)

No can't make Southwick unfortunately. I will probably be at Unadilla though.

Thanks for the critique. First time out with a new camera. I'm happy so far. Need faster glass.


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## MitchStrp (Jun 24, 2013)

I dont know what Craig is talking about but the 2nd one is probably the worst image of the two. Look at it this way, your viewers have no idea what hes jumping off of, how high he is, if its big or small. The photo needs to tell a story. It needs to tell us where he took off, wheres hes at in the air compared to the take off and obviously the landing. This image doesnt tell us any of that.


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## JClishe (Jun 25, 2013)

I would prefer the first one but Roczen is out of focus. I agree with Mitch in that I disagree with Scott; Motocross images coming into or leaving turns, like the first one, are typically shot with a very fast shutter so as to freeze action / roost (more space behind Ken's bike could have been advantageous here) as well as to capture detail. Ideally you'd love to see the riders eyes in focus in a shot like the first one. Slow shutter panning shots are typically used in high speed sections, like your second image. So I'd say your shutter speeds appear good on both, you just missed focus on #1 and I'd prefer a slightly looser crop on #2 and maybe bring back some of the highlights if you can.

Brian, do you have media credentials for Southwick or are you just attending? Unfortunately this year will be only my second time missing Red Bud in the last 15 years.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 25, 2013)

Yes I am credentialed. I might go Friday but probably just Saturday.


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## JClishe (Jun 25, 2013)

Cool. How do you go about getting credentialed for a motocross?


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 25, 2013)

You apply and show them a portfolio or you are hired to cover the event.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 25, 2013)

Apply through the AMA or other?


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 25, 2013)

Not sure I didn't apply, I was hired they said they would take care of it. I'm all set is all I know.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 26, 2013)

I like the images you posted.  Normally I don't like the busy backgrounds, but in the first one because there are no breaks in the colour it works.


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## pixmedic (Jun 26, 2013)

MitchStrp said:


> I dont know what Craig is talking about but the 2nd one is probably the worst image of the two. Look at it this way, your viewers have no idea what hes jumping off of, how high he is, if its big or small. The photo needs to tell a story. It needs to tell us where he took off, wheres hes at in the air compared to the take off and obviously the landing. This image doesnt tell us any of that.



im not understanding the whole "every photo needs to tell a story" thing. its a good photo of a bike midair, I think the photo stands on its own. Every photo tells some sort of story. this photo tells of a rider that is obviously mid jump on a dirt track. I dont think we need to have the track in the picture to get that as a viewer.  pan back and get the ramp, and you lose the close up of the rider. its just a portrait in motion. not every photo has to be a "war and peace". sometimes "green eggs and ham" will do just fine.


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## Overread (Jun 26, 2013)

Thread has been cleaned do not return to the removed topic/argument. Lets focus on the photos and leave personal squabbles off the site. If you can't stand another member either try to resolve the issue between yourselves in private (we have a private messaging system!) or use the ignore feature. The open site is NOT the place for these attacks/snips/arguments.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you Overead. I would like to apologize to all the forum members for allowing myself to act in an unprofessional manner.


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## Destin (Jun 26, 2013)

Not bad shots. The first one looks like the focus is missed slightly, and possibly could benefit from a greater DOF. The second shot is alright.. I like the composition and idea, but the sky being completely blown out ruins it for me honestly.  I've shot motocross so I know it's a tough balance.. If you can get an angle with the sun at your back it generally seems to work better but sometimes the sky is just too bright for this type of shot.


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## gregtallica (Jun 27, 2013)

These are so cool, I'm going to order tickets for the outdoor here in Utah in August. 


Does having the photo pass just grant you access to get closer to the course, or what specifically?


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 28, 2013)

Better??





​


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## EIngerson (Jun 28, 2013)

The first one is a bit soft. The second one is a great photo. It could use a little vibrance though. I don't buy off on the whole wheel blur arguments when it comes to motocross. If it's a good motocross image, wheel blur will not give anymore expression of speed.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 29, 2013)

Nothing??


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 30, 2013)

OK. I am hesitant to post my best stuff online 'cause it's so easy to take it. So I take a risk and put one up of an up and coming rider that shows movement in the wheels/some roost,riders eyes well enough to tell their color and focus is good. And nothing. Fair 'nuff.

Not to mention it was taken through a chain link fence at turn one at High Point. If you know High Point spectators feel the roost at turn one.


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## EIngerson (Jun 30, 2013)

It's good. What programs do you edit with? It could use a little vibrance and pull the detail back out of the shadows. I'd like to see more of the roost too. Good job getting under the helmet and grabbing the eyes.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 30, 2013)

Here is what I have learned. I can easily sit back and critique this photo. However Id post this photo as if it were mine asking for feedback as you are. I would be happy if it were mine. Id edit it a little different more contrast / saturation but this is a good useable photo for this rider. 

Way too many people sit back n critique photos but can't actually do it. Its called procedural knowledge. I can tell you how to pan - is every pan I do when I shoot pro sports a keeper? No? 

I think members need to understand the difference between editorial photography and commercial photography. The other day on fstoppers I saw an article where a photographer did a photo shoot with Aaron Hernendez(his current situation is a whole other story do not discuss it here). Anyways The photographer did a photo shoot with him back in Feb just hours after he was involved in something(leave it alone). They show his exif data. NEVER NEVER In a million years would I shoot a shot like that at f20. 

People there are blurry photos((slightly) bleacher report), poor backgrounds, highlights, unique crops used every day on the internet because it tells the story. That is what clients are looking for. Go online and look whats out there, you'd be surprised. Im not saying its right or wrong but it is what it is.


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## runnah (Jun 30, 2013)

brian_f2.8 said:


> Here is what I have learned. I can easily sit back and critique this photo. However Id post this photo as if it were mine asking for feedback as you are. I would be happy if it were mine. Id edit it a little different more contrast / saturation but this is a good useable photo for this rider.
> 
> Way too many people sit back n critique photos but can't actually do it. Its called procedural knowledge. I can tell you how to pan - is every pan I do when I shoot pro sports a keeper? No?
> 
> ...



Hard to get unique photos at these thing because there is so much outside of your control.  Getting a well exposed composed and focused shot is really all you can ask for.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jun 30, 2013)

Yes n no. Road courses have lots of opportunities for uniqueness. At NBA only Getty can strobe, go up high and behind backboard. Some sports you are limited while others endless. Same at NHL in the net. 

One of the best swimming n diving photos was last year at The Olympics by Al Bello. He went scuba diving during the events. He also put a camera above the high dive. Of course not everyone can do this but he did things to get him self there.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jun 30, 2013)

EIngerson said:


> It's good. What programs do you edit with? It could use a little vibrance and pull the detail back out of the shadows. I'd like to see more of the roost too. Good job getting under the helmet and grabbing the eyes.




That is my weak point. I lack experience with digital.especially post production. I use the ViewNX2 that came with the camera. My current computer is old and can't use the later software. It'll take a few months to rectify that.

 I'm a longtime 35MM user and this is my first time out with a DSLR. There are some better shots but I won't post them online. I guess I'll just wait until September when school starts.

Thanks.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 1, 2013)

brian_f2.8 said:


> Yes n no. Road courses have lots of opportunities for uniqueness. At NBA only Getty can strobe, go up high and behind backboard. Some sports you are limited while others endless. Same at NHL in the net.
> 
> One of the best swimming n diving photos was last year at The Olympics by Al Bello. He went scuba diving during the events. He also put a camera above the high dive. Of course not everyone can do this but he did things to get him self there.



Getty petty much controls or is listed as the official agency of most sporting events, they have been for a number of years.  Many of the photographers they use have been around shooting sports for 30 years, working for other agencies. The biggest being Allsport USA and Allsport UK, both had some of the best sports shooters in the world working for them, supplying photos to all the major sports publications.  Getty bought Allsport and Al Bello continued to shoot for Getty.  I had the opportunity of shooting boxing with Al back in 1990, he is very gifted and a true professional.  A lot of what the top photographers do isn't all that difficult, what it takes is a few things, being able to get cameras into positions that other photographers can't, reputation gets you this, having the gear and skills to use it, and then luck that it works out.  Putting a camera at the bottom of a pool is permitted at many swim meets, all you have to do is have the gear and ask.  Sports Illustrated has been putting remotes underwater since the early 90's. The wire services have all been doing the same, it really isn't as special as it once was.  Being able to place remotes will give the photographer the opportunity to create different images that stand out from others.

I put a remote in a drag car car in the early 90's, problem was I couldn't fire it until he left the line and it had a short range, picture looked ok, but nothing special, just the way it went.  Basically if you have the gear, the skills and ask the right people, you can generally get a camera into almost anywhere.  People that don't understand, think it's something they could never do, but in reality, anything is possible.

Inexperienced photographers are intimidated by other photographers, and feel they are restricted in what they can do, just ask the event director, all they can say no, but asking the question might just get you something no one else has, but don't start telling everyone or bragging about it, once that happens you'd be surprised how quickly your single camera had company.  Most pro sports have deeper restrictions, as Brian mentioned, the NBA is very controlling with all their images, probably more than the other pro sports.  If you want to try something new, ask around at some amateur or club events.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jul 1, 2013)

Getty and LAT are the biggies right now in the motorsports industry. Al is a great guy, I have spoken with him. 

For racing not anyone can go certain places. The only person who is allowed next to the person who waves the checker flag/green flag is a Getty/House guy. At Lime Rock, the only person that can shoot the start for a major event(from the bridge up top) is Getty/House guy. I have asked about  putting a remote camera in certain places in which I may do this weekend.

At the Austrailian V8 car race at COTA only one person was allowed to use an octocopter. Some great shots but that opportunity is only offered to certain people. Now we could all do similar work(why most start shots are all the same) but the photographer is the one who put himself or herself into position to allow them to be able to capture that photo that no one else could. They earned that positon from doing other things.

This winter now that I have 2 D3's, I am going to put a remote camera behind a back board and in the ceiling using my old D7000's for a high school basketball event. The AD is ok with me doing that. I just have to figure out the rigging system.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 1, 2013)

Getty runs the sports world, and it's not really a great thing, a lot of great agencies went out of business world wide when they swooped in and started offering to cover events on the cheap.  Some of the best sports photographers still shoot for Getty, but there are a greater number of mediocre photographers that shoot for them as well. For Getty it is still more about how many photos they can flood the market with quickly before/during and after events, offer lots and charge less.  Fast food photography at it's best.


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## brian_f2.8 (Jul 1, 2013)

Its a monopoly but at the same time people are starting to realize that we dont want the same photo as another agency. For example Im ESPN and you are Fox Sports. After the superbowl is over, Id like to have different images than my competitors do. So while a lot of websites do subscribe to US Presswire(usa sports) and Getty and AP, lets get something different. They are looking for b-roll shooters(best way to describe it).


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## MartinCrabtree (Jul 1, 2013)

Thanks for the opera. You know me me me me................


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 2, 2013)

Martin apologies for the highjack.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jul 2, 2013)

I do no such thing as I am never wrong.............except that one time.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 2, 2013)

I was apologising for being involved in high jacking the thread you started.  I wasn't saying you did.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jul 2, 2013)

And I was making light of the whole thing. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## imagemaker46 (Jul 2, 2013)

No worries


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## Fox_Racing_Guy (Jul 2, 2013)

To the original poster here is a good place to look for inspiration Simon Cudby - Racer X Online


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## brian_f2.8 (Jul 2, 2013)

I met him Saturday great guy very nice. Some really good work and well respected around the two wheel community.


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## DBA (Jul 9, 2013)

MartinCrabtree said:


> High Point Raceway 6/8/13 250 Moto 1


1: Out of focus, the white on Ken's jersey looks blown, bring out the shadows more, shallower DOF, higher shutter speed (I usually shoot 1250-1600), I'd leave more room at the bottom vs the top.

2: Did you crop this image or just have the ISO too high as it looks noisy? Blown out (to be fair sometimes you have to blow out the sky to get these shots), higher shutter speed.



MartinCrabtree said:


> Better??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shutter speed is better here.


MartinCrabtree said:


> There are some better shots but I won't post them online.


What are you afraid will happen if you post your best work?


brian_f2.8 said:


> You apply and show them a portfolio or you are hired to cover the event.


MX Sports doesn't give out credentials to freelancers, you have to be on assignment.


brian_f2.8 said:


> I met him Saturday great guy very nice. Some really good work and well respected around the two wheel community.


Yeah Simon is a legend in this industry/sport. BTW were you expecting his accent? lol


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## DGMPhotography (Jul 29, 2013)

Wow! I love both these shots. Such excellent colors, and perfect moments. Well done!


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## southwestsam (Aug 29, 2013)

For me the 1st is better but I like both.

I'd say you have a bit too much DOF in the first though, the subject could do with being slightly more isolated against a busy background although I suppose everyone's preferences are different.

Disagree with needing to tell a story - the photo looks good but I would have used a faster or slower shutter to blur the background more with panning or keep it completely un-blurred depending on preference. As is, it's a bit between the two which detracts from it IMO.

Look forward to seeing some more!


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