# Commercial work for resort....pricing and contract



## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

I am fairly new to the business of photography and charging for my work. Up until this point I have been doing portrait work for a few friends for my portfolio and a minimal fee of approximately 100 for about 10 to 15 photographs on a CD. The resort I work at has gotten wind of my photography skills and has asked me to possibly take some photographs around the property. They have drawn up a contract for me to sign and I know it is beyond low for what they are asking for but I don't know exactly what the industry is for this type of photography. I was hoping someone might look it over, and also maybe provide examples of more appropriate contracts for this type of work. I am not a professional photographer by any means, but I do know my work is worth more than they are offering. I do own very nice equipment and can produce high quality images, but am limited in comparison to a professional commercial photographer. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I have to get back to my manager tomorrow....

Photographer&#8217;s Release Form



I, Name Removed, as photographer and legal copyright author, owner and doing business as 
Name Removed 1099 (social security number on file) do hereby grant the property name removed full rights to copy, print or reproduce photos as described; website, collateral, e-blasts, etc. There will be no restrictions for any photos released to hotel by Photographer and no limit will be give for photography release. 

The goal for Name Removed is to help the hotel create new business development and use our photographers for future hotel clients. This includes incremental photos to include but not be limited to the following:

&#8226;    Teambuilding- events
&#8226;    Busy Pool- activity 
&#8226;    Joggers- active athletes
&#8226;    Water Sports- those on water 
&#8226;    Architecture- arches and hallways
&#8226;    Coffee guests- at Aroma
&#8226;    Live music- weekends

Photos may consist of &#8220;hero shots,&#8221; table top displays, hotels to include  Resort and generic photos. 

There will be no restrictions for any photos released to hotel by Photographer and no limit will be give for photography release. 

Fees will include; $99 set up fee to include but not be limited to 10 hours of photography. This also includes a $10 fee for each photo used by hotel. Should hotel use any photo outside of photographers understand, not litigation may be taken. However, hotel will reserve the right to pay photographer the agreed upon $10 photo fee. Not to exceed 20 photos by year&#8217;s end- 2013. 

Invoicing must be completed and submitted to HSDR as per the accounting practices by the hotel. A purchase order will be complete by the hotel for up to but not to exceed $300. 

A copy of this document shall be considered adequate proof of release by the photographer and firm. Confirmation of such can be verified by contacting me at any time if necessary. 

. 
Photographer- Name REmoved     Name Removed &#8211; DOSM
Date: 8.1.2013     Date: 8.1.2013


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## tirediron (Jul 25, 2013)

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:   Oh... wait... they're serious??????  :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:  Sorry...  Not to exceed 20 images and not to exceed $300?  EVEN if you are being paid your regular salary/wage (are you?) while doing this, they are realllllllllllly trying to thread you!  It really depends on what YOUR goal is here.  Do you want to do the job and pick up  a little 'bonus' money, or do you want to stand on your rights as a photographer.  If you're getting paid your regular salary/wage and you're happy with the experience, etc, it's not the worst deal in the world ('though not far from it).  I really can't tell you what to charge, since I have no idea where you are, whether you have all of the necessary equipment to properly discharge the commission, etc, BUT...  if I were doing it, I would probably quote them something in the order of $1000 for the work (the exact requirements are a little vague) plus licensing.  For unlimited and non-exclusive use for a three-year period, I would probably ask for something in the three-five hundred dollar/image range.  If they wanted exclusive use (as in, I couldn't sell them to a stock agency, or use them in my portfolio, etc) I would raise the price by a factor three or four (understanding fully that they would likely tell me to take a hike).

The "contract" is VERY poorly written, and does not appear to adress who is responsible for model releases, does not include a property release, does cover what form(s) the images should be delivered in, nor whether exclusive use is desired.  NEVER let the client dictate the contract - sure they can bring theirs out, but you bring yours out too, and at least meet in the middel.

Did I mention, they're trying to thread you?


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## Devinhullphoto (Jul 25, 2013)

I've never done photography for money or profit but I've done freelance graphic design and this sounds like plenty of the bad experiences I've had there. People always think art is cheap. I personally would take the above advice unless its just experience and your ok with that.


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## KmH (Jul 25, 2013)

I suspect your newness to the business of doing photography was the attraction, rather than your photography skills.
They have you at a distinct disadvantage business wise. Business 101 teaches that whoever writes the contract has a big advantage.
As John mentions contract terms are usually negotiable - The Photographer's Guide to Negotiating
Pricing Guides | American Society of Media Photographers
Licensing Guide | American Society of Media Photographers

Look this article over to get an idea of what commercial photography is worth. The total estimate was for $19,900 and was accepted. Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com



> After considering the size of the client, scope of the use (no print), experience of the photographer (this was his *first major commercial assignment*), shoot difficulty/complexity, the quantity of photos, the fact that only one image would be used as the "hero" and that the value to the client would diminish for similar images from each scenario, I valued the first image at *$2,500*, the 2nd through 5th at *$1,250* each and the 6th through 13th at *$800* each, *for a total of $13,900*.



The Hotel wants way more usage than what is involved in the above article. Selling *use licensing* is what commercial photography is all about.
The more uses they want, the more it costs.

Some additional references:
Best Business Practices for Photographers, Second Edition
The Professional Photographer's Legal Handbook


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 25, 2013)

No restrictions, no limits... this seems to want a lot for not much. Not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but $99 plus 10 per photo for a total of no more than $300 for _unlimited_ commercial use? Since it's work related if it's something you think you need to do it seems at least that it would be better to have terms limited to specific use for a specific time frame (although at least it seems I think to be just for this resort not for the entire company). They may want an employee to do this because they can't even begin to find a photographer who would do commercial work like this at this rate of pay. 

You could look at American Society of Media Photographers , they have sample contracts I think, and a formula available to determine cost of doing business as do other organizations and websites like PPA. 
(nm Just saw Keith's links above - instead I could just post more of these :lmao: like John did, that sums it up pretty well :er: - that rate might not even be up to current standards for one year's use of one photo in one brochure.)


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## Steve5D (Jul 25, 2013)

> The goal for Name Removed is to help the hotel create new business development and use our photographers for future hotel clients...



What dollar amount are they hoping for in the "create new business development"? This is, after all, Hilton. They're not going to do anything without knowing what it will cost them and how much they can make. I don't necessarily fault them for making such a low offer. They are, after all, in business to make as much profit as possible. If they're not shown any resistance, they have no reason to increase the dollar amount.

Also, the "use our photographers" phrase is intriguing. Are you now going to be one of their photographers? If not, why are they wanting to use your photographs to build business for other photographers? Will you be able to benefit from "future hotel clients"?

Aside from everything else, the initial money being offered is stupidly low. I would respectfully and politely decline. If it becomes uncomfortable, simply explain that you don't want to lose focus on whatever your primary role there is. That's a tough one for them to argue because, if you say that, and your primary job does suffer, they can't say you didn't warn them.

This isn't Uncle Cephus' Wagon Wheel Inn. This is Hilton. Hilton can, and should, pony up...


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## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

I politely offered resistance explaining that we need to consider what type of contract and use rights were realistic and well as pricing. I explained that I do appreciate the offer for the experience but I also need to consider that this is a field I am looking to Pursue as my career and I am not keen on lowering the market value in turn affecting the rates companies are willing to pay in the future. I mentioned that i thought we were on a good track by discussing it but we needed to hammer out the finer details by the end of the day I had an email in my inbox containing the above contract. I honestly was insulted and felt used by my company but I don't know how to approach it now because I feel I was not assertive enough from the start and was being to nice. Now I feel they think I'm a child lacking the education to understand how absurd their offer is but I'm in a tough spot because it is my place of employment.


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## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

Oh yeah and the manager actually said that it was a conflict of interest to hire somebody who is currently employed by the hotel and therefore the only way we can do the deal is if I worked for and i quote peanuts


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## tirediron (Jul 25, 2013)

whitnic said:


> Oh yeah and the manager actually said that it was a conflict of interest to hire somebody who is currently employed by the hotel and therefore the only way we can do the deal is if I worked for and i quote peanuts


Tell the manager you are hosting a large party for family and friends and would he mind coming over and to act as waiter, bus-boy and oh yeah, bring the food too? You'll pay him $300 for the day's work, because of course, any more would be a conflict of interest. They are trying to get something for nothing, and I would strongly suggest politely refusing.


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## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

My goal is to counter offer and show him I can't be pushed around, but I don't know what to offer. In reality I am still very new to the business. I own a canon 5d mark II and mid level glass. I have done proposal shots and engagement shots. I need a realistic counter offer....


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## tirediron (Jul 25, 2013)

$2500 for up to 20 images with a two year, non-exclusive license.


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## vintagesnaps (Jul 25, 2013)

Seems like it could make for an awkward situation since they're your employer; maybe it will be best if you decide to decline and let them choose someone else. If you accept this contract it might give you some good experience but then again it might set a precedent for them offering you low pay for this type work in the future. 

I guess if you were doing this during your regular work hours, they are already paying your for that time; but doing this doesn't seem to be part of your regular work duties. If this doesn't work out maybe it will be better to pursue photography on your own, that might lead you to better opportunities down the road.

edit - If you haven't done event or commercial photography and have done limited professional photography I'd probably look into what the range is for entry level (or something comparable to that) for that type work in your area. Maybe ASMP or other pro photographers organizations might have a chapter in your area that would list members - if you could look at some other photographers sites maybe you could get some idea what the going rate is.


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## KmH (Jul 25, 2013)

A non-exclusive license means you can license the same up to 20 images images to other use license buyers.

The pricing model for commercial/stock/assignment work is vastly different than the pricing model for the retail photography you have been building a portfolio for.

I get the distinct impression you do not have a well researched, written business and marketing plan for your retail photography business, let alone a second business/marketing plan for doing commercial/stock/assignment work.

whitnic. Are you in the USA? Your profile has no location info.

Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov


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## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

I am employed as the Concierge for my company. The resort is well established and in Southern CA. Generally speaking some of the photos would have to be taken on the clock because events happen during my normal business hours but the majority would be off the clock. I am not paid a high hourly wage and these is not my immediate manager. I have not built a business marketing plan as my research and education on the topic has been halted by recent events. I do however have a basic understanding of contracts and pricing for both commercial and retail work. My hesitation in this particular instance is due to the fact that this is for my current employer. I am absolutely willing to work for under market value on behalf of the circumstances but I feel the contract he has presented is beyond low, it's pennies. This manager is trying to take advantage of my situation and spin it as he is doing me a favor despite company policies because I am an expecting mother and could use money. He has also never spoken to me in the past to know I am not as young as I look and that I am a college graduate who is not going to settle for being manipulated, I am not naive. I was considering asking at least 50 per photo with a 3 year use? Which I still think is beyond reasonable and quite low but also see that is five times what he offered and don't want to piss him off.


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## manaheim (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm not going to say anything that others haven't already said, so I'll just say this...

*+1*


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## whitnic (Jul 25, 2013)

Also quite uncomfortable with the fact that he intends to 1099 me when to my knowledge I only have to report wages on a 1099 should I make more than 600 in a calendar year. Given that he is caping me at 300 and I don't anticipate I will do any other related work during the year I find it slightly concerning considering a 1099 means I will be taxed VERY heavily on that minuscule amount of money. I am familiar with self employment tax rates and laws of reporting income because as a concierge I do make commissions from various companies who do provide me with a 1099.


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## tirediron (Jul 25, 2013)

This is a bad situation, getting worse.  DO NOT take this on!


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## nycphotography (Jul 25, 2013)

The best way to handle such things is to take yourself out of the valuation process.

"Generally speaking the going rate for this kind of work is between $x and $y.  But I'd suggest you do your own research and see what you come up with.

I'll do it for $x on my own time since I already work for you full time.  But if it's a conflict of interest to hire me, then by all means don't hire me for this.  Use someone else, and pay them $y.

I really appreciate you thinking of me for this, but really, if I'm going to produce the results this is a non trivial undertaking and I'd really have to charge an appropriate amount to take on the responsibility.

Let me know what you decide."

I learned a lesson by accident a long time ago... if you don't need them and dismiss them (or are prepared to dismiss them) and they come back to you or pursue you, then you control the relationship.  If you need them, and show it, then they will control the relationship.


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## tirediron (Jul 26, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> The best way to handle such things is to take yourself out of the valuation process.
> 
> "Generally speaking the going rate for this kind of work is between $x and $y. But I'd suggest you do your own research and see what you come up with.
> 
> ...



Best advice in the entire thread!


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## Steve5D (Jul 26, 2013)

whitnic said:


> Oh yeah and the manager actually said that it was a conflict of interest to hire somebody who is currently employed by the hotel and therefore the only way we can do the deal is if I worked for and i quote peanuts



I'd decline, period, and I wouldn't be remarkably polite about it at this point. If it' a conflict of interest, then the conflict exists regardless of the dollar amount. As lead concierge, I don't believe that providing images falls into your job description, and they are probably well aware that not only can they not coerce you to do it, they also know that they would likely be opening themselves up for a lawsuit if they did.

They've basically confirmed that they're not going to pay you more. Ergo, I wouldn't do it. Period.

Is this the Hilton over on Mission Bay or downtown?


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## manaheim (Jul 26, 2013)

He actually works at the resort that's trying to get him to do this.  A polite extraction is likely going to be the only option unless he wants to be looking for work.


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## Aloicious (Jul 26, 2013)

don't do it man. if there is a conflict of interest, then there is a conflict of interest, period. it doesn't matter if they are offering you $3000 or $300, a low amount of money doesn't 'resolve' the conflict of interest...in fact it makes it worse as they are not offering you a fair market price when the work being done is outside your job description. 

Personally I'd just politely refuse, say thanks, that you understand their position but the amount they are offering is not within the fair market value of your work. Thank them for their time and interest. Don't even put in a counter offer, because that will just make things worse if they think your counter offer is too high (which they will based off what they are offering). And for the love of all things good in this world, don't tell them that you're working on making your photography a career, this is your current employer, nothing good can come from telling them your future plans to make money outside their timeclock. Be professional and polite and succinct, but don't apologize for not taking the job either, you're not at fault for them having to look elsewhere for the service, they're the ones who are at fault for losing the job for not offering you a fair price. You could even find the most ridiculously expensive commercial photographer you can, and without saying anything, just toss a casual reference to them so that if they go to them for a quote, they'll get an incredibly expensive price, and that may have them re-think their position (probably not, but hey why not)

If they come back and reply to that and say they are still interested and WANT a counter offer, then give them a straightforward price like tiredon gave, and if needed, explain your costs and man hours involved (i.e. equipment costs, travel costs, prep time, shooting time, production time, and if you're off the clock during any of it, than this is YOUR time, not theirs. they can't have it for free) and where your numbers come from and if needed perhaps provide some examples from credible sources like have been linked to in this thread already, they are business people, not photographers, they'll understand and appreciate numbers and cold hard facts. 

but personally, I'd just walk away....You should Nancy Regan this whole situation and just say no.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 26, 2013)

Agree totally with those who say to decline.

Once they brought up conflict of interest the entire deal is tainted.
Whatever you charge - and get - they have a lever against you.

I would specifically disclaim the money issues as the cause of your withdrawal so that isn't a way for them to come back to you and make it look like you were trying to get more money.

I would say that you thank them for the confidence and that you hadn't considered the conflict of interest issues before. 
Now that it was made clear about the potential conflict of interest, the issues of money are moot and you don't see any way that you could do this job.


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## Vautrin (Jul 28, 2013)

Do you like photography more than working at the front desk?

If yes, tell them you will work for your normal hourly wage (as they're trying to pay you less than your hourly wage).  And that includes everything: post processing at home afterwards, everything.  Agree that you won't come in just for a half hour shoot (unless you live close, and don't mind)

If they agree, you've just made your job more pleasant.  You'll now be doing something you'd prefer doing -- at least for a little bit.

If they disagree, then really they're just out to take advantage, and you should tell them to take a hike.


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## whitnic (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I did take everyone's opinions into consideration and made a decision to counter, but I did it in a way that showed them I cannot be pushed around. I consulted with a local photographer who provided me with help creating a professional contract to send back to them. I also wrote an email regarding the whole issue. I decided that since I don't know how much longer I will be with this company anyways, that I should stay true to myself and demand respect from my manangers, and I think I was successful. I realized that backing down polietly may have been the better choice, but I wanted to show them that I am competent enough as a photographer, adult, and business professional, to produce a contract and handle myself, because this mananger clearly does not know me very well and thought otherwise. I am 26 but look about 18, not to mention very few manangers on property even know I have a college degree, given that they weren't in management here when I started. It was important to me to show them what I am made of, so I did. Just in case any of you who helped me would like to read the email I sent, I have included everything below.

Good Morning *Name Removed*
, 
After further consideration of your proposal and the contract you provided, I would like to provide you with my counter offer. 
When we first began discussing this business opportunity, I was imagining a less formal agreement; in fact, I was happy to do so. I also did not expect to be 1099'd, given that I was under the impression it was unecessary unless I were to make over $600.00 in a calendar year. I realize now that royalty payments fall under different circumstances and due to the formal contract,, a 1099 form will be required.

Given the current situation and per our last meeting, I am now in complete agreement with you that a contract is necessary. I have had the opportunity to review your proposal and respectfully provide you with my counter. Your proposed budget is far lower than market value for freelance photography, and as I mentioned during our meeting, I am not comfortable accepting such an offer due to how it effects the industry standards. 

I have drafted a contract for you to review. I believe it is more than reasonable, and still very low given the current median industry rate. I have included a copy of the above stated contract, as well as the photography release form I will provide for you once the terms of the contract have been fulfilled. 

I take full responsibility for misrepresenting myself as a Photographer, as I was clearly approaching a company as though they were another friend or family member. This, as you said, is a "conflict of interest." I hope that we can come to an agreement. I would love to be part of this project and I think each party will benefit from the arrangement. I would be happy to provide image samples from previous clients upon your request. I look forward to hearing back from you and await your response.

Sincerely,

W


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## Steve5D (Jul 28, 2013)

Yeah, I don't know that I'd have done that.

The phrase "conflict of interest" is a strong one; strong enough, in fact, that it should've precluded this going any further. By countering, you've illustrated to them, *and to anyone who will ever read that*, that you're willing to put a few bucks ahead of ethics. Ask yourself if that's the reputation you want, because it's quite easily a reputation you could end up with.

You easily could've shown them that you couldn't be "pushed around" by declining to do the photography for them...


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## lmoser (Jul 28, 2013)

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to make this decision.  If you decline, is your boss going to think any less of you?  Is there a chance you might lose your job over this?  If so, maybe you should suck it up and do it.  Just chalk this up as a learning experience.  You can get them next time.


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## manaheim (Jul 28, 2013)

That was a harsh step to take with an employer I think.  The Spirit of it is fine but the language is strong.


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## cgipson1 (Jul 28, 2013)

whitnic said:


> Your proposed budget is *far lower than market value for freelance photography*,



This varies greatly depending on skill, and the market. If you charge more then you are worth (i.e your images are of lesser quality then they should be), you will probably be looking for a new job! Especially since your "counter" was somewhat confrontational. Since it has gotten to this point, and based on what the initial offer was... they are probably not going to be happy with anything you produce!


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## whitnic (Jul 30, 2013)

Sometimes being harsh is necessary. I actually consulted with someone who knows this sales manager quite well before my response. He actually is respecting me now and treating this situation more professionally. Clearly standards are different depending on ability and I strongly believe I priced my work accordingly. The contract I presented also gave him the option not to purchase at all if he wasn't satisfied but insisted if he liked my work that he pay a certain amount. I am not worried about my position, as I am a top performer and very well liked by my immediate management team. I have no disciplinary problems in my file and have been employed with my company for 2.5 years. Not to mention I'm pregnant. I do believe the language was strong but that was the point. Tip toeing around because they are my employer wouldn't have been appropriate in my opinion. Anyhow it was actually received VERY well and the deal is not off the table, he actually brought my contract up with other managers in a positive manner and suggested they still use me.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 30, 2013)

whitnic said:


> Sometimes being harsh is necessary. I actually consulted with someone who knows this sales manager quite well before my response. He actually is respecting me now and treating this situation more professionally. Clearly standards are different depending on ability and I strongly believe I priced my work accordingly. The contract I presented also gave him the option not to purchase at all if he wasn't satisfied but insisted if he liked my work that he pay a certain amount. I am not worried about my position, as I am a top performer and very well liked by my immediate management team. I have no disciplinary problems in my file and have been employed with my company for 2.5 years. Not to mention I'm pregnant. I do believe the language was strong but that was the point. Tip toeing around because they are my employer wouldn't have been appropriate in my opinion. Anyhow it was actually received VERY well and the deal is not off the table, he actually brought my contract up with other managers in a positive manner and suggested they still use me.



Good for you.
I hope it works out well.

Lew


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## Steve5D (Jul 30, 2013)

"Conflict of interest".

Everything I'm reading is read with those three words echoing in the back ground "Conflict of interest".

The contract you presented him, while "insisting" that he pay for your work also means that you could be spinning your wheels to do this and gain nothing.

You should also be alert to them trying to take the position that, since you did the work (or some of it) during your regular work hours, that it constitutes a "work for hire" and, as such, you have to relinquish those photos taken during your regular work hours. I'm going to go out on a limb and float the idea that Hilton probably has the legal resources to pursue such a demand far more than you'll have legal resources to fight it.

I'm mildly confused by this whole thing, really. You asked for advice, and almost everyone said you should pass on it, for a myriad of reasons. Some of these folks may have been just hobbiests, but there are others who are working pros and have learned to spot a minefield when they see one. For whatever reason, you've chosen to ignore the very advice you asked for.

I think this could end badly for you. It may not, but I think it will, and I still believe you should've simply declined...


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## KmH (Jul 30, 2013)

^^^ +1.  :thumbup:

No doubt, you are there and aware of nuances we can't fathom. 
It seems apparent you gathered the needed info and make a decision, while also being willing to accept the responsibility for the outcome even if the outcome was not favorable to you.

Doing business of any kind entails taking some calculated risks.


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## whitnic (Jul 30, 2013)

I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected.  I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 30, 2013)

Again, good for you.


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## manaheim (Jul 30, 2013)

whitnic said:


> I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected.  I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.



I think you're missing something... I don't think people are so much indignant that you ignored the advice as they are shocked over the direction you went.  You were presented with a> run and b> go for it and you chose z> thermo nuclear war.

Let me put this another way... If I were your employer and you"countered" in that manner, I would be putting together a justifications to fire you.

That was NOT a good move.  Period.


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## The_Traveler (Jul 30, 2013)

manaheim said:


> whitnic said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate and respect everyones opinions and advice, doesn't mean I have to do exactly what they are recommending. I took the fact that people were telling me I should back down and opt out as clearly the companies contract was not fair or accurate for the industry. Which is really what I wanted to confirm as that is what I suspected.  I also do not intend to take most of the photographs while on the clock, even if I am scheduled for work it would be during my break, but thats besides the point. What is the point is that I chose to counter, knowing full well that they most likely won't accept the offer anyways which is fine with me. If I take the photographs and they don't purchase, that is also abosutely fine with me, as I ENJOY TAKING PHOTOGRAPHs. So while I do appreciate everyones advice and opinions and did take everything into consideration prior to making a decision, I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision. I posted my response for anyone who may be curious about the action I took, not to continue to defend and argue why I made the decision. Thank you all for helping me and for the advice.
> ...



Tell me what the upside is in telling someone that what they've done is wrong in the terms you've used.

She's an adult. She knows her situation and her employers.
She's done what she thinks is best.

I think you should respect her judgement for that and let it be rather than acting like you are the 'authority.'

If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.
In my time as a boss, I wanted strong intelligent people as employees who could perform and who weren't afraid to tell me when they thought I was wrong.


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## Steve5D (Jul 30, 2013)

whitnic said:


> ...I obveiously can't convince you it was the right decision.



Likewise, we can never convince you that it was the wrong one.

"Conflict of interest".

It doesn't matter who countered who with what. Even they're saying it's a conflict of interest. If it's a conflict of interest for them, I have some sad news for you: It's also a conflict of interest for you.

You're willing to put ethics aside for a few bucks.

That will not, in the long run, serve you well...


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## whitnic (Jul 30, 2013)

Steve I will say this one move time. I don't care if they accept my counter or not, it was not about money, so I am not putting "ethics aside for a few bucks." To those who said they would fire me, that is ridiculous, considering I didn't say anything that would warrant that given that this was no longer being discussed on company time. It was a conversation between a company and a freelance photographer via the photographers email. I  would never want or for that matter chose to work for a company that was willing to fire someone over this. To the person who said they would respect me thank you, because that was my whole point in making the decision. People do not promote pushovers. Sales managers respect people who don't bull**** when it comes to money. Now that being said, honestly I've grown tired of this discussion, so I won't be returning. I am sorry, I didn't follow everyone's advice, but I am very happy I handled it the way I did regardless of risk. Thank you all again and have a nice day.


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## Steve5D (Jul 30, 2013)

whitnic said:


> Steve I will say this one move time. I don't care if they accept my counter or not, it was not about money, so I am not putting "ethics aside for a few bucks."



I didn't say you were. I said that you're willing to, and you've proven me right by not simply walking away. 

This isn't a hobby for me. This is what I do all day, every day. If a conflict of interest arises, which it has in your case, if you don't walk away you're perpetuating it. Period. You can't divorce yourself from that, because you acknowledged the conflict of interest _in writing_. Whether they accept your offer or not is of no consequence. What matters is that if they make you an offer you like, despite it being a conflict of interest, you'll take it.

And you'll flush your ethics and, in short order, your reputation as a photographer down the toilet...



> To those who said they would fire me, that is ridiculous, considering I didn't say anything that would warrant that given that this was no longer being discussed on company time. It was a conversation between a company and a freelance photographer via the photographers email.



You're remarkably naïve. The contents of the e-mail, whether it's a work e-mail or a personal e-mail, are what matters. In at least one piece of correspondence, you acknowledged the conflict of interest. You can't walk away from that...



> Sales managers respect people who don't bull**** when it comes to money.



Unless you're making a play for the industry standard for the type of shooting you'll be doing, you are "bull****ing" when it comes to money. Period. If you accept what they offer you, as opposed to them accepting your terms, you are a pushover. "Respect" is something which you will not earn as a result of this...



> Now that being said, honestly I've grown tired of this discussion, so I won't be returning. I am sorry, I didn't follow everyone's advice, but I am very happy I handled it the way I did regardless of risk. Thank you all again and have a nice day.



I always laugh at those who, in the face of advice they didn't expect, run away with their tails between their legs.

I'd strongly suggest you stick to the concierge desk, and leave the photography to professionals. I'm not saying that on the basis of your talent; I don't know what that level is. I'm saying that on the basis of the fact that you're apparently devoid of any measurable business acumen.


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## Steve5D (Jul 30, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.



It's doubtful that a Manager in a multi-billion dollar corporation will do the same...


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## The_Traveler (Jul 30, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > If I were her boss, I'd look at her with new respect.
> ...



No, it's not doubtful, you are doubtful.

I was a reasonably high level manager in a multi-billion dollar corporation (US Army) with a lot more power over my subordinates than her manager does  Then Operations VP of a sizable consulting company, then ED of an technical group that had members like Sprint and GE medical Systems and I welcomed that kind of strength in subordinates. 
The willingness to talk truth to power is a rare good quality.

I am stunned that you guys are so wedded to your own idea - even not knowing the situation - that you keep on with this. 
But you don't know her situation and she does.
Why not just respect her decision and let her see how it works?
It's sunk cost, and you gain nothing in this attempt to aggrandize your own opinion and make her feel bad.

So you persist in trying to show her she's wrong - and what might be a good strong member here might not be back.


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## manaheim (Jul 30, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> manaheim said:
> 
> 
> > whitnic said:
> ...



I said what I said with the full intent of trying to help. 

I have a lot of experience in corporate America and specifically in management.  While I don't know the hotel industry all THAT well, I know it a little, and I'm pretty sure most of the same rules apply.

If someone had told me what I told her, I would hope I would at least go "Hm... maybe I should do a little damage control"... or at least consider it.

My point here was only to take a different approach to trying to get the point across, and I think it was reasonable to do so.

That said, the OP has now declared she's done and this thread is devolving, so I'm going to lock it and we can all go on with our lives.


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