# Question regarding giving/getting photo credit



## PNWSGM (Aug 1, 2012)

Be ready for long post, sorry!

I recently attended Formula D Round 5 in Seattle. While attending (in general admission, couldn't receive media credentials for the event) I had my camera and was taking pictures anyways. I also had a friend introduce me to a particular Pro FD driver and his media guy, after talking and shooting the **** I agreed to show the media guy any pictures I got of the driver throughout the event. The driver is sponsored by a very large automotive parts company. 

I ended up getting some good pictures of the driver throughout the event and ended up *watermarking* and sending the driver's media guy (as well as the company's media guy) the photos. He assured me at the event that if any of my pictures were to be used in any way he would give me credit. 

Fast forward to today.. I am now friends with both the driver and media guy on facebook and the media guy ended up posting a new advertisement piece (for the company) using various pictures from Formula D Seattle. Including one of my pictures (easily identifiable). Nowhere was I given credit, nor was I paid for the piece. My watermark has been removed from the photo as well. I contacted the Media guy asking what they planned to use the piece for and was told "Facebook and Webpage Advertisement". I replied to the guy saying that it would be awesome if I could get photo credit since they are going to be using the piece, to which I have received no reply.

I was talking to my buddy who is also a photographer and has been paid  to go to events and he mentioned that all of what has happened is  "illegal" since the company's media guy took the photo without giving  credit or paying for it.

So my question to you all is, what do you think of the situation? Do you have any course of action suggestions? Thanks for your time!


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## Tony S (Aug 1, 2012)

Are the pictures registered? If not and this event is still recent you still have time to register them which would give you the power of collecting a judgement for the copyrights violation. That also means getting an attorney involved, a sticky mess.  If you don't register the images used the only recourse you really have is to contact Facebook and file their form that they have when someone posts pictures that belong to you and they don't have any useage rights to. Facebook will take down the photos, but the offender can simply respond to them that they have the rights to use them and put them back up. 

https://www.facebook.com/help/?page=157024904418383

Unfortunately you have learned a tough lesson, don't give away photos without a clear agreement (and especially payment if they are using it for advertising) and a much more obnoxious watermark than what you gave them.


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## pic_chick (Aug 1, 2012)

You can still reg. your photos. Even after they are published here U.S. Copyright Office - Registration of Published Photographs  That may give you a wobbly leg to stand on. Call a copyright lawyer.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 1, 2012)

Does it change anything that they were uploaded to flickr and then I linked the media guy to the flickr pages? It clearly states "All rights reserved" on flickr, however that could just be writing on the internet and have no backing.

Also, doesn't the photographer have all rights to any picture they take regardless of registering the photograph or not?


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## pic_chick (Aug 1, 2012)

They may but how do you prove it?


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## cgipson1 (Aug 1, 2012)

Contracts! ALWAYS get a contract! Paid or not! So you sent him the images? You should have just sent him a link to your Flickr, whatever.... and let him pick something, and then discuss what was going to happen next. Did you imply in any way that sending him the shots was giving him permission to use them? Did you imply that it would be ok in any previous conversations? Watermarks are easily removed (as you found out).. but there is digital watermarking, that is embedded in the photo.. impossible to remove. Too bad you didn't do that!

Yes.. you own the photos since you are in the US.... unless there is a contract that states differently. You can ask that the photo be removed, or that you be given credit... or even that you be paid. They may comply.. they may not! They may think it is a non-issue... or that you won't bother / can't afford going to an attorney.

Your best call would be to contact them, in writing... delivery receipt and signature on the mail, with your request. If that doesn't work... discuss it with an attorney to explore your options. Obviously you don't have the photo copyrighted... and you have no contract.   Good luck!

(I am not an attorney.. nor do I give legal advice. That is what Attorneys are for! )  And being FB friend's doesn't go far.... not if there is money in it for someone.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 1, 2012)

I'd probalby message him again and ask for an immediete responce or your going straight to the advertiser and providing proof he's illeagally using your images to promote their products.  But I don't know my law very well either.


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## tirediron (Aug 1, 2012)

Call it a life lesson and learn to assume the worst of people.  You "gave" away the photos without any paperwork.  Was what they did right?  No, it wasn't, but....


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## KmH (Aug 1, 2012)

PNWSGM said:


> Also, doesn't the photographer have all rights to any picture they take regardless of registering the photograph or not?


Yes, but it's not nearly that simple, and getting photo credit is essentially useless. How many advertisements in print or online have you seen that include a credit for the photographer?

There is little doubt they are wanting to take advantage of your inexperience.

http://copyright.gov/

Registering your images has been mentioned. However, there are registration time limits (3 months) that determine what kind of remedies you can seek, namely statutory or actual damages. You can register many images at once, making it dirt cheap (pennies) on a per image basis.

You have a 3 month window. Plus, since US copyright law is federal law, infringement actions are only heard in federal court. To file an action in federal court, the work in question has to be registered *before* the court will accept the action - USC 17 411 http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap4.pdf states:



> (b), no civil action for infringement of the copyright in any United States work shall be instituted _*until preregistration or registration of the copyright claim has been made*_ in accordance with this title.



Since your watermark was removed, the media guy has 'willfully' infringed your copyright. Once an attorney establishes that willful infringement in court, the court is then allowed to award damages of up to $150,000 per infringed image, _*PLUS*_ all your attorney fees and court costs.

Now, if the photo is used to advertise the ' very large auto parts company' your attorney can sue them separately.

The hook here is that you need to have a *image copyright registration certificate number* issued by the US Copyright office. That gives you or your attorney massive *leverage* to negotiate an out-of-court settlement.

Those of us that do so, routinely register all of our images once every 3 months, since that is the time limit mentioned above.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 1, 2012)

pic_chick said:


> They may but how do you prove it?



Exif data.



cgipson1 said:


> Contracts! ALWAYS get a contract! Paid or not! So you sent him the images? You should have just sent him a link to your Flickr, whatever.... and let him pick something, and then discuss what was going to happen next. Did you imply in any way that sending him the shots was giving him permission to use them? Did you imply that it would be ok in any previous conversations? Watermarks are easily removed (as you found out).. but there is digital watermarking, that is embedded in the photo.. impossible to remove. Too bad you didn't do that!
> 
> Your best call would be to contact them, in writing... delivery receipt and signature on the mail, with your request. If that doesn't work... discuss it with an attorney to explore your options. Obviously you don't have the photo copyrighted... and you have no contract.   Good luck!
> 
> (I am not an attorney.. nor do I give legal advice. That is what Attorneys are for! )  And being FB friend's doesn't go far.... not if there is money in it for someone.



How do you digitally watermark a photo? 

I do plan to write them again.



KmH said:


> Yes, but it's not nearly that simple, and getting photo credit is essentially useless. How many advertisements in print or online have you seen that include a credit for the photographer?
> 
> There is little doubt they are wanting to take advantage of your inexperience.
> 
> ...



Thank you for all of your insight! Working as we speak on getting all of the pictures from the event registered.


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## orljustin (Aug 1, 2012)

Send a 1 year commercial license and bill for $5000, to be paid immediately, which includes a penalty for use without a license.  If paid within 1 week, you won't pass the matter to your lawyer.

There is no lesson to learn.  You provided them with a watermarked image on spec, and they screwed you over.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 1, 2012)

orljustin said:


> Send a 1 year commercial license and bill for $5000, to be paid immediately, which includes a penalty for use without a license.  If paid within 1 week, you won't pass the matter to your lawyer.
> 
> There is no lesson to learn.  You provided them with a watermarked image on spec, and they screwed you over.



I hope you are being serious, if so thank you for your input.



Do you all believe I should contact the company directly or "formally" contact the media guy (through another source than fb)


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 2, 2012)

I would give the media guy one more chance. make sure you keep any email or message in case it goes the legal route. I'd let him know you will get a layer and you will make sure that the company he is doing this for is fully aware he is using someone elses photos without permission and that they could be included in a lawsuit as well.  

actually i'd probalby talk to a layer and see what he would want me to do, before i made a mis-step and hurt any chances of a court case.


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## KmH (Aug 2, 2012)

Here is what you do, step-by-step - Help! I&#8217;ve Been Infringed! | Photo Attorney


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## PNWSGM (Aug 2, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> I would give the media guy one more chance. make sure you keep any email or message in case it goes the legal route. I'd let him know you will get a layer and you will make sure that the company he is doing this for is fully aware he is using someone elses photos without permission and that they could be included in a lawsuit as well.
> 
> actually i'd probalby talk to a layer and see what he would want me to do, before i made a mis-step and hurt any chances of a court case.



I have talked it over with some people and basically have planned a course of action to what you are saying. Except giving the media guy another chance. He removed a comment stating one of the pictures was mine (another version of willful infrigment?) and also ignored my message regarding giving me credit and then posted the picture to the company's facebook. 

The only downside to talking to a lawyer is that regardless you have to pay them. I might however give a local based (Seattle) copyright infringement lawyer a call and see what he recommends.



KmH said:


> Here is what you do, step-by-step - Help! Ive Been Infringed! | Photo Attorney



Thank you again. I think it's funny the first thing it says to do is copy the images, considering I have already done that. Thank you for all of  your insight!


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 2, 2012)

well sounds like he has showed talking to him won't do a bit of good.  sucks a layer may cost, but this where you have pretty good proof you may get one to pick it up. if he did it to you chances are he's done it to someone else. guys like this need ratted out big time. i'd be interested to know who it is and what company for my own curiosity. i'm getting into the local drifting scene here in indy.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 2, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> well sounds like he has showed talking to him won't do a bit of good.  sucks a layer may cost, but this where you have pretty good proof you may get one to pick it up. if he did it to you chances are he's done it to someone else. guys like this need ratted out big time. i'd be interested to know who it is and what company for my own curiosity. i'm getting into the local drifting scene here in indy.



Yeah, however if it goes as far as needing a lawyer and go to court over it.. they will have to refund me for lawyer/court fees if I were to win. 

I'm not going to put the company/guy on blast because simply it's not the Company's fault, I mean they could be COMPLETELY unaware of the issue. Just know that it is a very large suspension company.


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## Seefutlung (Aug 3, 2012)

After executing all of the above .. print an image of the driver (and the media guy if you got one) ... soak the image(s) in chicken blood, skewer the image(s) with needles, used pungi sticks and old toe nails while uttering this Nahuatl curse:
"






"  

Then burn the image(s) ... if nothing else this will make you feel a bit better. Then sue the bastards in small claims.

G


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 3, 2012)

PNWSGM said:


> 12sndsgood said:
> 
> 
> > well sounds like he has showed talking to him won't do a bit of good. sucks a layer may cost, but this where you have pretty good proof you may get one to pick it up. if he did it to you chances are he's done it to someone else. guys like this need ratted out big time. i'd be interested to know who it is and what company for my own curiosity. i'm getting into the local drifting scene here in indy.
> ...




I understand that, it's not the companies fault. but at some point the company should know that their "photographer" is using stolen images and that could possibly reflect badly on them. i'd probalby call or send a nice polite letter to the companies marketing/advertising manager and explain the situation and that you want to settle this quietly rather then to wind up in court where there name could come up etc. that right there would likely get a very fast phone call from the company to said photography and could fix the entire situation.  who knows. they could wind up dropping there photographer and be looking for a new one.


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## CCericola (Aug 3, 2012)

You had 2 choices. Let it go and keep a friend or persue what is owed to you and burn your bridge. Looks like the media guy doesn't think you will do anything about it. My advice, register  the photos, have a lawyer send a letter telling them to stop using your picture (i forget what those are called) then file in small claims for damages. Get yourself paid. If I was this company and I found out an employee was stealing, that employee would be fired and I would try to smooth things over with the offended party.


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## shefjr (Aug 3, 2012)

That guy has some nerve removing your watermark. WTF!!! people suck!


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## KmH (Aug 3, 2012)

EXIF data can be changed (edited), or deleted entirely by anyone.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 3, 2012)

Unfortunately, the first mistake was assuming that any of these guys really care if you get paid or not, or if you get credit for the use of any photos.  I've been through this in the past.  If you assumed that you would get more work out of these guys, future consideration, that's not going to happen.  What you have done is given them a picture to use, simply by sending it to them, watermarked or not, unless the watermark was huge and a pain to remove, little one can easily be taken off, mind you so can large ones.  You can threaten them with legal action, and they won't believe it, as I mentioned, they just don't care.  If they are presented with an invoice from your *registered photographic business* for the use of the image, they may or may not do anything about it.  Chances are you'll not get anything out of these guys.

I hope it turns out in your favour, but have my doubts.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 3, 2012)

That was my thought for going to the company itself. this guy will likely just ignore you and hide. waiting for you to give up.  for auto companies image is important, and a lot of times if they feel someone is being shady and it can hurt there image, they are quick to dump ties with them. well unless there shady too lol.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 4, 2012)

imagemaker46 said:


> Unfortunately, the first mistake was assuming that any of these guys really care if you get paid or not, or if you get credit for the use of any photos.  I've been through this in the past.  If you assumed that you would get more work out of these guys, future consideration, that's not going to happen.  What you have done is given them a picture to use, simply by sending it to them, watermarked or not, unless the watermark was huge and a pain to remove, little one can easily be taken off, mind you so can large ones.  You can threaten them with legal action, and they won't believe it, as I mentioned, they just don't care.  If they are presented with an invoice from your *registered photographic business* for the use of the image, they may or may not do anything about it.  Chances are you'll not get anything out of these guys.
> 
> I hope it turns out in your favour, but have my doubts.



I don't know how they do things in Canada but theft is a crime. Whether they want to do anything about it or not, if they choose not to legal action will be taken against them. The media guy and myself had a contract, it being verbal is regardless because it is still a contract (however this is where his word vs. mine comes into play), and he broke it. Simple as that.



12sndsgood said:


> That was my thought for going to the company itself. this guy will likely just ignore you and hide. waiting for you to give up.  for auto companies image is important, and a lot of times if they feel someone is being shady and it can hurt there image, they are quick to dump ties with them. well unless there shady too lol.



Hence why I wrote the President/owner/CEO a letter today. Called their business line and asked for the name of the President/owner/CEO, if I didn't get his name I am sure I was given a name of somebody who can pass this or get it taken care of. 

Busy weekend ahead of myself. Sending the letter out 1st thing on Monday with screenshots of all the images and the images I took myself.


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## imagemaker46 (Aug 4, 2012)

Good luck with all of this.  I have had verbal contracts and always respected a handshake as someone's word.  What goes on now and what used to go on in the photographic world are different, it really extends beyond photography.  Some people just don't care, they see taking a photograph and using it as an ok thing to do, afterall it's just a photograph.  The fact that the media guy has already decided to use the photo, and that his word means nothing, you have to know that he will just say you gave him permission to use the photo.  Hopefully the person you are sending the letter to doesn't share the same attitude as the media guy.

Do you have a registered business?


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 4, 2012)

Might ask for head of their advertising or marketing department. from the past dealing with automotive sponsorships those are the two guys that will usually be dealing directly with this type of situation and those guys having been screwed over a lot from bad sponsorships and guys like this, and are usually pretty big on weeding out this type of situation. They truly hate people like this. Maybe cc them in the letter.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 5, 2012)

12sndsgood said:


> Might ask for head of their advertising or marketing department. from the past dealing with automotive sponsorships those are the two guys that will usually be dealing directly with this type of situation and those guys having been screwed over a lot from bad sponsorships and guys like this, and are usually pretty big on weeding out this type of situation. They truly hate people like this. Maybe cc them in the letter.



I might have to do that tomorrow. Perhaps send a copy to the head of advertising and marketing and then one to the president. The only thing I am worried about is if the media guy is their advertising and marketing department. Ya know?

Regardless, letter goes out tomorrow.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 10, 2012)

My letter must have already gotten there because I woke up this morning to this message on FACEBOOK: 

"Dear [Name Redacted]. 

ALL OF YOUR PHOTOS are being removed, with ALL YOUR Credits as well. We spoke back and forth in Seattle about using your photos for our website and internet marketing. To keep all looks uniform I had to crop it and do some ACTUAL color correction to make it fit. We talked briefly about it giving credit if we used it. It was used in a small FB ad for no monetary use. We where planning on using this in a print medium, and were going to pay you for your services. But once you sent in images marking them like a crime scene to our business, we have decided to drop all your photos and go with all of mine. We have a million things going on, we apologize about the delay in communication and where looking forward to buying the rights to your photo. A single facebook message to me directly could have solved the issues. Sending in photos like that to a company is not a way to get ahead in any shape. Thanks for your time, but we are moving forward with other options and photographs. 

Thanks, 

[Name Redacted]"

He also removed all the pictures from both his facebook and the company's website, good thing I took a screen shot of them.


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## KmH (Aug 10, 2012)

Well you still have the infringement documented. Taking all the photos down doesn't clear them. "Small FB ad for no monetary use." is BS because monetary use, in this instance, has nothing to do with it.

Most of the rest of what they wrote is just posturing and whining.



> Excuses, Excuses (Part 2) | Photo Attorney
> *9. I gave credit to the photographer.*
> Many mistakenly assume that they may use a photo so long as they acknowledge the photographer or otherwise provide the source of the photo. But, as far back as 1938, courts held that &#8220;[t]he fact that the defendant acknowledged the source from which this matter was taken does not excuse the infringement.  While the acknowledgment indicates that it did not intend unfair competition, it does not relieve the defendant from legal liability for the infringement.&#8221;  Henry Holt & Co., to Use of Felderman v. Liggett & Myers Tobacco Co.,  23 F.Supp. 302, 304 (D.C.Pa. 1938).
> 
> ...


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## PNWSGM (Aug 11, 2012)

KmH on top of this! Thanks, yet again!


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## jamesbjenkins (Aug 11, 2012)

Well, the bastards know full well they got caught, and now they're hoping you won't go for the kill shot.

If it were my image they stole, I'd already be halfway to a settlement.

Good luck getting your justice from them!


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## PNWSGM (Aug 11, 2012)

Called the attorney's office. talking to his secretary Tuesday and she will take all the information down and forward it to him to see if there Is a worthwhile case. Unfortunately he is on vacation until the 20th.


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## slackercruster (Aug 11, 2012)

OP, no not a long post.

Sucks what happened. I call that theft. Can't advise what to do. Most likely suck it up and move on.  Your protection for using images large scale comes with offering low res images to start with. If stolen for $$ use they can only do so much with low res. 

I take low res pix all the time from other togs to post them on the forums to discuss and illustrate a point. They get removed quickly. I tried getting permission and in 2 pix I had permission..they were removed as well.  I will post my complaints on that shortly. 

In any case, I only use low res copies and I give credit if the tog if known. Some members call me a thief. I am a thief for posting another togs photo to praise it and say it is not mine? Did you ever shoot a pix of a billboard? Are you a thief?


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## PNWSGM (Aug 11, 2012)

^ so the point of you posting here was......?


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 12, 2012)

Yeah that sounded like a bull crap answer, he's trying to make you feel bad like you lost out when reality he's just pissed off he got caught and probalby got bitched at by the company and he doesn't have enough quality of charachter to stand up to what he did. You tried to contact him. you tried to resolve the issue and he bitched out on it.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 12, 2012)

I love the fact it's over facebook. If I don't get a reply from the company by mail shortly it will just show me that they don't think I am serious/are just shady overall. Time will tell. Tuesday is just around the corner so we will see what the secretary or whatever she is has to say about my case. Obviously I will keep this thread updated.


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## cloud9imagery (Aug 12, 2012)

> How do you digitally watermark a photo?



Digimarc.com is a good one.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 15, 2012)

Just got off the phone with my original attorney's associate. He said my case sounded interesting and would get back to me. -Iffy

Then searched around a little more and found another lawyer who forwarded me to his friend, who charges less and does individual stuff and not large company stuff like him, and she said I have a good case and is going to put together an estimate and such for me. Should hear back from her tomorrow.


Sidenote: Lawyers are not cheap.


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## KmH (Aug 15, 2012)

If your attorney can prove willful infringement, the court can include your court and attorneys fees as part of the award. You stand the chance of it costing you zip, nada, nothing.

Often the other side's attorney recommends not even bothering to pay him/her show up in court, because they have zero chance of even mitigating the damages awarded by so much as a penny let alone winning.

The smart infringers try to settle before it goes to court. If they do, make sure they agree to pay ALL your court and attorney costs, including *your* time spent on the internet researching the legal issues and attorneys.


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## amolitor (Aug 15, 2012)

"Large Auto Company" almost certainly has policies stating that they DO NOT DO this kind of thing, and sometimes those policies have teeth.

You can probably get Media Guy fired if you push it (with the aid of a lawyer) from the Large Auto Company downwards. I dunno if that's a positive or a negative for you.


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## KmH (Aug 15, 2012)

If the media guy willfully infringed a photo and exposed the 'large auto company' to an infringement law suit they have little if any hope of mitigating, he/she should be fired.

One of the pretty much common terms of employment is that if you commit dishonest, immoral, or illegal acts at work, and get caught doing so, you get demoted to being unemployed.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 15, 2012)

amolitor said:


> "Large Auto Company" almost certainly has policies stating that they DO NOT DO this kind of thing, and sometimes those policies have teeth.
> 
> You can probably get Media Guy fired if you push it (with the aid of a lawyer) from the Large Auto Company downwards. I dunno if that's a positive or a negative for you.



That's one thing I've been talked to about by friends and worries me a little, but not much. If word of this gets out how am I going to be viewed by the automotive sports media world? 

Not worried too much as I have a career aside from photography starting, but I do enjoy it as a side hobby/job.


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## pic_chick (Aug 15, 2012)

I would bet most people will be understanding and will side with you in this.


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## 12sndsgood (Aug 16, 2012)

You only have to be concerned with shady companies and shady media people.  Anyone with morals and ethics would not see this as a negative.


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## PNWSGM (Aug 21, 2012)

Figured I would keep everybody updated:

Heard back from one lawyer. Her retainer is quite a bit, as in I could buy a new camera body for less! 
Waiting to hear back from another, and also got in contact with Carolyn of Photo Attorney and waiting to hear back from her!


I would hope that I don't get "black listed" because of something like this, that would be silly and dumb.


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## PNWSGM (Sep 15, 2012)

Progress is happening. Should have an actual update here in a few days/a week, I doubt anybody is following this anymore but figured I'd keep it updated for anybody in the future. Don't let this happen to you! I have had many people tell me to just "ignore" the issue, sorry don't like being stepped on like this.

 Would like to thank KmH once again for all of his help, and for referring me to photoattorney.

Also would like to thank everybody for all of their input!


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## sxesweets (Sep 19, 2012)

Please do keep it updated, I am following


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## shefjr (Sep 19, 2012)

I too am following. Hoping for a favorable ending for the "good guys". (you)


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## PNWSGM (Oct 16, 2012)

I really hope I could update faster but the legal process is a very slow one. I will say that legal action has been taken though. By Wednesday I should know whether it was successful, if not the next step in the legal process. If I end up getting a settlement and working it out, I am going to try and get an agreement where I can discuss the details (most likely opting out the company name and settlement amount) so that I can outline what should be done, from personal experience, to other photographers in the future! Stay tuned!


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## PNWSGM (Jan 28, 2013)

Small update: My lawyer has been in talks with the CEO of the company, who talked with their media guy, who said I was leaving out parts of the story. Awesome. Now, my lawyer is awaiting a response from the company's lawyer (I believe) and has been for about a month and a half now. We will see how it goes. I hope everybody has had a fun and safe new year so far!


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## Tee (Jan 28, 2013)

Mind sharing the image that started all this?


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## PNWSGM (Feb 5, 2013)

Tee said:


> Mind sharing the image that started all this?



Unfortunately I don't think that would be a smart decision until after the suit is settled. Once the suit is settled I will be posting a whole write up and such. Hopefully something that will get stickied for future use/reference. Which will include the photo and such.


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## Dliwevad (Jun 7, 2014)

Any update on this?  Just curious if justice was finally served here.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 7, 2014)

You got taken on the old "sure we'll give you credit" ride.  This kind of thing has been happening since day one.  If anyone offered up a picture for free, the picture is free for the use.  It's happened to me a few times over the past 40 years, I just send them an invoice for the picture use, not expecting it to ever be paid, and it never was, but I always remember the people involved and make sure other photographers know them.


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## KmH (Jun 7, 2014)

Dliwevad said:


> Any update on this?  Just curious if justice was finally served here.


Well it's been 22 months since the thread was started and the OP - PNWSGM - last logged into TPF on 03-03-2013 15 months ago, so I would not suggest expecting an answer any time soon.


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