# The "Why" phase



## danalec99 (May 15, 2005)

I'm going through the "Why" phase at the moment. Why am I taking pictures? What are my intentions? Do I want to convey a story? Do I want to create a technically perfect work? or bit of both? Am I being influenced by the ohhs ahhs and/or the thumbs downs? Do I want to be part of a clique? Am I trying to solely please my viewer and in that process am I losing _me_ or atleast part of me? 

Let me paste what Hertz commented in the Crit section:


			
				Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> Anyone can write something that has correct spelling and grammar but this does not make it a good or interesting. There is a lot more to it than that, as I am sure you understand.
> The same goes for a photograph.
> Technology now allows us all to take pictures that are in focus and correctly exposed. We even have control over contrast and colour. But being able to take a perfect picture does not mean that the images we take are 'great literature'.


Excellent point, I have been thinking along the same lines lately. But how do we know the viewer has gotten what went through our heads while we created the image? I can show it to ten people and can probably listen to ten different interpretations.

::Reclines with a cup of tea::


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## KevinR (May 15, 2005)

Does the fact that the viewer gets something else out of the photo bother you?

I try to please myself. But then again, I have a day job. The more I participate in critiques, the less I say about the work. The reaction good or bad by the viewers is for me the point. But everybody has their opinion. 

I know that everbody wants validation on their work, but not everybody is going to get it. Be your own worst critique, then what anybody else says won't bother you to bad.

I am probably not answering anything, but this some of my philosophy on making prints.


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## danalec99 (May 15, 2005)

KevinR said:
			
		

> *Does the fact that the viewer gets something else out of the photo bother you?*
> 
> I try to please myself. But then again, I have a day job. The more I participate in critiques, the less I say about the work. The reaction good or bad by the viewers is for me the point. But everybody has their opinion.
> 
> ...


1. No, not at all. 
2. It is not the viewer's comments that I am worried about. The issue is me.             Do I want to be myself or do I want to simply please the crowd. _If_ the weight goes to the latter, then I do not see photography taking much space in my head. 

Thank you Kevin, for taking the time to respond. 

Daniel


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## KevinR (May 15, 2005)

When you say please the crowd, does that mean commercially.$

I have actually kicked the idea around of doing some "pretty shots" for some of the arts and crafts fairs around the area.

I would not claim to think these shots would inspire, but if it means making money to invest back into my photography, man....I'm all over that.  

Maybe I'll use a different name for these.


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## Hertz van Rental (May 15, 2005)

Welcome to my world.
You touch on a problem that has been taking up a lot of my time for the past 15 years. I'm not anywhere near solving it - but that has never been my intention. I am solely interested in outlining the framework within which Photography occurs. That being said...
You are getting yourself a little confused because you are actually confusing things. You are muddling up 'Why' and 'How' with 'What are my intentions' to start with. These to things are distinctly seperate.
Firstly you should think about why you commit Photography. What are your intentions? Do you do it for a hobby? Relaxation? Because it's the latest fad? Because you want to become a professional? Because you have to?
There are many reasons why people do things, and generally people rarely do things for just a single reason. You must try to be honest with yourself and try to work out the reasons why _you_ do Photography. You don't need to tell anyone else, just be clear in your own mind. Knowing this will give you direction and inform you as to what you need to put in, as well as what you can expect to get out of the whole thing.
You will now be in a position to ask 'Why?' as in 'why am I taking this picture?'
For example: Why am I taking a picture of this tree and not that man digging his garden? What is it about the tree that makes me want to photograph it? (It also helps to ask 'what is it about that man digging his garden that makes me NOT want to photograph him?')
Understanding the 'Why?' allows you to select the most appropriate techniques and approach to help communicate your answer. That is, to answer the 'How?'.
To look at it another way, when you take a picture you are trying to solve a problem. The problem can usually be broken down into several questions so the picture can be seen as trying to answer those questions - of resolving them. 
Often the picture will only partially answer the questions, or just one - or possibly not answer any of the questions at all - in which case we are dissatisfied with the results. Knowing (even if you can't put it into words) what it was that you were trying to do in the first place enables you to look at the picture and figure out why it doesn't work.
You don't have to do any of this when you take a picture if you don't want to (a lot of it is going on in your subconcious anyhow. Ignorance is bliss) - but if there comes a time when you start feeling dissatisfied with your pictures; that there should be 'something more'. Well, I've shown you the way forward.
Getting away from the purely technical obsession, Photography becomes a constant questioning of the self - and the world around you. You will never come up with a wholly satisfactory answer to any of the questions you pose (if you did you wouldn't need to take anymore pictures) but it's a lot of fun trying.

As for the viewer interpreting the image in the same way as the photographer.... This is a completely seperate, and very complex, question the principles of which will one day form the basis of my PhD  :mrgreen:


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## danalec99 (May 15, 2005)

Thank you for being part of tpf!


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## Hertz van Rental (May 15, 2005)

Oh! And I meant to add that it is entirely possible to do it for money, please the crowd and _still_ be yourself. I know a lot of pros who did it - at one time I was in there too. You just have to be disciplined.


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## ShutteredEye (May 15, 2005)

Please the crowd if you like....get your work published, hung on the wall with a cheezy inspirational message under it, or as that ever sought after july spot in a calendar.

But we all know what old magazines are worth, and how often we toss those silly posters away, and we all know what good old calendars are.

I say, be true to yourself.  People will know when you are not.  And I for one hate being patronized....  Don't give people what you think they want, take a chance that they will appreciate the true you.  For there is no risk in being yourself, b/c even if it appears no one likes you or your work, if nothing else you have your self, and your soul.

An excellent example of staying true to one's self and following only what the art itself dictates (even though it's not photography) is Alison Krauss.  Read about her, and listen to her music, and you will recognize a pureness that only could come from true self honesty.  

Great topic, btw.


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## craig (May 15, 2005)

Excellent thread. I believe that the technical side needs to become second nature. This will help produce results that you are proud of. Photography is a craft. Mastering that craft is important. Advancements in technology has made things easier, but the fact of taking your camera off of auto is still mandatory. Rules were meant to be broken. You need to control the rules before you can break them.

Now the hard part is your vision. Have you created what YOU saw during the "decisive moment"? I believe that the best we can do is our own personal style. You need to make sure the viewer knows that DanAlec took this photo. Wether they like it or not is a different story. I also believe that we need to make all elements of the frame part of the photo. The belief that you can clone out the telephone pole and wires killing your shot is a bad habit to get into. Instead; incorporate them into the frame or find another angle.

The moral of the story is: shoot a lot of photos and consider everything. Apply you passioin. View print and share. Check out art in all mediums daily. No one lives in a vacuum.


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## ShutteredEye (May 15, 2005)

You know, I'm glad this thread is here today.  I found myself composing a post out of frustration earlier.  Posted some pictures that I thought were the best I've taken to date, technically speaking, and :sigh: barely a comment either way.  Even my family when seeing them was like, "mmm, nice.  So, uh, what's for dinner...."  

Evidently I have a long way to go before really capturing the viewer, and drawing them in. 

Desperately trying to accept the lesson for what it is, and not lash out in frustration.

Desperately.  :meh:   :meh:


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## craig (May 15, 2005)

I am glad that this thread is here as well. You have brought a couple of interesting points. On one hand the viewer may be the ultimate judge. The doctor or salesman viewing what you perceive to be art is actually an uninterested third party. He needs to be stimulated by your work. On the other hand an artist may say that the photo has a lot of merit. He has an understanding of the craft that may give the work different meaning.

May be we should look at it in a different medium. Painting takes a trained eye. You are not going to drop 25 large for a piece because you like the way it looks. You need to understand his brush strokes and the relevance of his work. A guitarist can spew a technically amazing solo. Until I hear the familiar A, G, or E or chords I am going to think it is just guitar masturbation. 

Turn you frustration into passion. That will produce stronger results wether you know it or not. Create work that you think is strong. If the viewer digs it than chalk one up. If not that is ok. Hey; you can not please everyone all the time. Plus it is kind of ridiculous to try. 

Frustration is a part of every artists life. At least you did not commit murder or cut your ear off. On a side note: I have fallen for the I am burnt on photography; so I will put it on a shelf. Personally I was only kidding myself and I lost valuable time.


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## Hertz van Rental (May 16, 2005)

craig said:
			
		

> Photography is a craft. ... Rules were meant to be broken. You need to control the rules before you can break them.
> ... Have you created what YOU saw during the "decisive moment"?


I'm afraid I have to disagree with all of this. The reason being that it is cliche-speak. The vast majority of people who do Photography toss these phrases around but very, very few ever think about what they mean or the philosophy they enshrine. They just promote fuzziness.

'Photography is a Craft': This is a very old argument that never gets resolved because it is actually dealing with vagueness. We know the difference between Art and Science, but Craft is a vague term.
Photography _can_ be a Craft - or it can be an Art and it can certainly be a Science. It all depends upon how you approach it. People should stop thinking about what Photography 'is' and start thinking about what it 'does'!

'Rules were meant to be broken, etc....': Rules, by definition, cannot be broken. I have had this argument again and again. The bottom line is that people who say this do not actually know what the rules _are_.
I have mentioned before that there are, in fact, only three Rules of Photography. I will start another thread on this shortly.

Ah! The 'decisive moment'. So what, exactly, is the decisive moment? It is that point at which we decide to press the shutter, nothing more.
I have never found anyone who uses this phrase who can actually explain exactly what they mean by it. Even HCB who coined it couldn't do it. On the few occasions anyone pinned him down about it he came up with different explanations. What he was actually doing was to try and imbue the camera with some kind of magic.
Again, I will explain in more detail later.

Please note: This is in no way meant as a personal attack against Craig so do not see it as such. 
What I am attacking is the cliche - the entrenched opinions about Photography that far too many people hold and are used to explain things whilst not actually thinking about the explanation.
Another cliche that is counter-productive to serious Photographic debate is 'the camera never lies'. Think about it and why it, too, is nonsense.


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## sillyphaunt (May 16, 2005)

Awesome thread everyone. Good points.

MountainLander... I 100% agree with you on your points. That's where I am at this moment. Do you do what is popular just to get responses, or do you stay "true" to yourself and what you see as your "art" and say screw it to the responses?

I too have been there when I feel so excited about a certain photograph or peice and get minimal or no response. Its very frustrating. Although this forum has been amazing in terms of learning and technical help, I find that the best way to get honest responses to my work is to ask people that I trust to tell me the truth. My husband is the person I trust the most, simply becuase I know he'll tell me if he likes it or not, and why.

One of the most frustrating thigns for me is when I do something on purpose in a photograph (like a color tint or angle or DOF), and then someone says "I like it but it seems too......" and stifles my creative expression! 

Craig's point about finding something that say's the viewer that it is YOUR photo is one that he told me a long time ago, and I've tried to incorporate it into my work (thanks Craig!  ).. I think its a good point. 

But I too have struggled with the "why". I haven't worked that out for myself yet, I wonder if anyone really ever does?


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## danalec99 (May 16, 2005)

craig said:
			
		

> Turn you frustration into passion. That will produce stronger results wether you know it or not. Create work that you think is strong. If the viewer digs it than chalk one up. If not that is ok. Hey; you can not please everyone all the time. Plus it is kind of ridiculous to try.
> 
> Frustration is a part of every artists life. At least you did not commit murder or cut your ear off. On a side note: I have fallen for the I am burnt on photography; so I will put it on a shelf. Personally I was only kidding myself and I lost valuable time.


I do not know if it is frustration that I am going through. I'm merely questioning myself. But thanks for the push to go out and create stuff. I've not been doing that with full vigour lately.


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## danalec99 (May 16, 2005)

mountainlander said:
			
		

> I say, be true to yourself.  ...


:thumbsup:

And I shall check out Alison Krauss.


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## danalec99 (May 16, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> Oh! And I meant to add that it is entirely possible to do it for money, please the crowd *and still be yourself.* I know a lot of pros who did it - at one time I was in there too. You just have to be *disciplined*.


Could you elaborate on the discipline part?


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## Hertz van Rental (May 16, 2005)

The discipline is to do with keeping a clear head about what you are doing and why. If you are doing some commercial work for a client then you give 100% of your energy to that and put your own work out of your mind for the duration. When you are doing something for yourself, again you give it 100% and forget any commercial work that you have in the pipeline. If you start letting them intrude into each other's space then you run the risk of loosing your way and getting distracted. This results in you producing work that you will be less than happy about.


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## danalec99 (May 16, 2005)

I see what you mean..thanks!


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## Hertz van Rental (May 17, 2005)

sillyphaunt said:
			
		

> But I too have struggled with the "why". I haven't worked that out for myself yet, I wonder if anyone really ever does?


Which 'Why?' do you have a problem with?
Why do you do Photography? I know some of the reasons that I do it but it is not that important. It's the same as asking 'why did I choose those sunglasses?' or 'why did I get married?'. You do it because is the best answer.
Why do I want to photograph that? is different. Taking the picture is an attempt to answer the question more fully. It certainly gives you insight if you look at it properly so the next picture you take you have a clearer idea and so on.
You can certainly answer the question to your own satisfaction - but then you see something that raises different questions...
I know almost precisely what I am trying to do when I take a picture - even though I can't put it into words before I do the shot (if I could I'd be a writer not a photographer). There are other things that pop up to suprise me but that is part of the fun.
Just concentrate on one or two questions at a time - it makes things easier.
You can ask me about what I do and why, you know. It's not a crime. I have always talked to other photographers. If you are all looking for answers it can help to find out how other people look and where


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## craig (May 17, 2005)

I welcome the rebuttal and am in no way insulted. Hertz may have ended and or summed up most photography debates with the simple sentence "People should stop thinking about what Photography 'is' and start thinking about what it 'does'!" I have to say that I still stick by my thoughts. Alltough  I may have been a little unclear. 

I love the term craft. To me it sums up my ever growing technical knowledge that I use to create MY photos. To me the craftsmen takes his knowledge of his medium and creates art. A stone mason or carpenter uses his tools to create a stone sculpture or a beautiful boat. When you are an apprentice you spend your time studying rules and formulas. Once these rules become second nature you can apply your creativity making you a craftsmen.

I would like to read the three rules of photography. Mostly because I can argue them...Joking of course. In this case I was speaking more along the lines of a high contrast shot turning out pleasing to the eye. 

I believe that the Decisive moment is a mythical place. I generally tag that phrase onto the moment that I release the shutter and say that photo was the best of today's adventure.


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## Hertz van Rental (May 17, 2005)

One of my dictionaries defines Craft as 'occupation requiring skill with the hands'. The Oxford defines it as 'skill or trade'. Neither definition does justice to Photography - or photographers - in my opinion, and neither seem to require the presence of technical knowledge.
Still, if you want to consider yourself as a craftsman, and view Photography as a craft, then go ahead. I won't argue.
As for me ending 'most photography debates with the simple sentence "People should stop thinking about what Photography 'is' and start thinking about what it 'does'!" '. If my memory serves me - and it usually does - I have only used this phrase once. Or were you saying that that sentence sums things up so well that it precludes any further debate? ;-)
I personally abhor any attempt to pigeonhole Photography by calling it a Craft, Art, Science or Lion Taming. Believing it to be one of these is to deny the possibility of it being one of the others, and gives only a limited view of the possibilities.
I much prefer to say that Photography is... Photography, and celebrate the wonderful richness that the subject holds within itself.


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## Big Mike (May 17, 2005)

Great thread...

One thing that I would like to add...even if it is cliché.
"Why photograph things?"   "To see what they look like when photographed"

I find that anyone can get bored or blocked when you are thinking about they way things look rather than the way they will (or can) look when photographed.  I think it helps you to think about what the camera and light are doing and what you have to do rather than just pointing and clicking.


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## Artemis (May 17, 2005)

Havent had time to read other threads...but I think...to be honest you do it because you enjoy it, your good at it, you enjoy it again, and its part of you...thats it...and I think they are the right reasons...


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## ksmattfish (May 17, 2005)

Artemis said:
			
		

> you do it because you enjoy it



Works for me.


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## Jeff Canes (May 17, 2005)

Arty, I agree with is that the taking of photos is enjoyable for me, but the rest stuff development, editing and printing is less that fun to me.


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## ShutteredEye (May 17, 2005)

danalec99 said:
			
		

> :thumbsup:
> 
> And I shall check out Alison Krauss.



http://www.alisonkrauss.com/


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## danalec99 (May 17, 2005)

Thanks for that link, Robert!


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## Hertz van Rental (May 18, 2005)

Jeff Canes said:
			
		

> Arty, I agree with is that the taking of photos is enjoyable for me, but the rest stuff development, editing and printing is less that fun to me.


Turn pro - then you pay someone else to do all the boring bits  :mrgreen: 

Doing it because you love it works for me, too. Oh, all right. I do it because I'm obsessed by it.  :crazy:


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## JonMikal (May 18, 2005)

great thread and lots of fine input from all.  

as for me, i take pictures to please myself and put forth no effort in doing so...it's simply a game i started with myself and family members years ago when i wanted to show everything i was trying to verbally describe when traveling...you know "the picture is worth a thousand words" bit.  when i joined this online community, i did so because i was bored and wanted to share what i had taken.  i was hoping for honest critique and an occasional pat on the back when enjoyed by others, like most, but quite frankly, the ooohs and aahs and bowing down emoticons irritate the crap out of me because i dont believe any real thought was given to the view.  there are a handful of posters that i recognize put forth a good effort when commenting and will undoubtably receive mixed reviews, but i sit back and say "hey, i like it and thats all that really matters"...other than that im not at all taken by the overwhelming praises of most.  ive deliberately posted "CRAP" and still received the "you are amazing" stuff. i cant help but sit and laugh my a** off at it.  i also post in a professional type forum and really get the kick in the butt at times :lmao: 

dan, i see in part why you question your "whys", but dont let the all the hoopla others receive diminish what you're doing.  there are people that seem to stick close here, that happens everywhere...and it's OK because some here see this forum as a "family"; sharing almost every aspect of their life and because of that, the comments are endless!  take pictures to please yourself and hope others like them enough to take special notice.  i cant imagine taking pictures specifically to please someone else unless you were commissioned to do so.  seems you have a lot to sort through and focus on....just adding my .02 worth. 

i got way off track didnt i? anyway, the best to you!


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## ShutteredEye (May 18, 2005)

JonMikal said:
			
		

> ......the ooohs and aahs and bowing down emoticons irritate the crap out of me because i dont believe any real thought was given to the view.  there are a handful of posters that i recognize put forth a good effort when commenting and will undoubtably receive mixed reviews, but i sit back and say "hey, i like it and thats all that really matters"...other than that im not at all taken by the overwhelming praises of most.  ive deliberately posted "CRAP" and still received the "you are amazing" stuff. i cant help but sit and laugh my a** off at it.  i also post in a professional type forum and really get the kick in the butt at times :lmao:



HA!  I thought so.  Notice I don't post on some of your shots.....now you know why!   :mrgreen:    :mrgreen:


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## JonMikal (May 18, 2005)

mountainlander said:
			
		

> HA! I thought so. Notice I don't post on some of your shots.....now you know why!  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:


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## Hertz van Rental (May 19, 2005)

They may be crappy to you, but to others they may be high Art - I've heard people say that 'Art is in the eye of the beholder'...


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## danalec99 (May 19, 2005)

JonMikal said:
			
		

> -but dont let the all the hoopla others receive diminish what you're doing. there are people that seem to stick close here, that happens everywhere...
> 
> -i cant imagine taking pictures specifically to please someone else unless you were commissioned to do so.


Jon, I think there has been a misunderstanding. How do I explain it?  

I just had observed that lately my work was sub consciously being affected by the comments from here, friends and family. Not good; not bad. Its just that I feel that I should focus on what _I_ want to do. I was merely dealing with that issue. I do not know if I am making myself clear enough! .

Thanks everyone for the valuable input!


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## Digital Matt (May 19, 2005)

Great thread, and lots of great ideas here.  I'll just state my purpose, really to explain to myself I guess.

Like Arty said, do it because you enjoy it.  I enjoy photography.  I enjoy being out in nature, during a bad storm, or in freezing cold, or a cool autumn day.  I love life, and photography puts me in touch with it.  I enjoy walking down a city street, watching the pulse of the city, observing it.  I enjoy thinking of the technical aspects of it.  The framing, the composition, the depth of field.  I enjoy the development, whether it be digital, or (soon to be) film.  I also enjoy sharing it, and hearing different interpretations.  I don't expect everyone to see what I see, or feel what I feel.  I don't think photographs, or at least the ones I take, are meant to document a literal scene, but rather to show someone a possibility, and to provoke a thought. 

My ultimate goal though (in life), is just to be happy.


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## Nikon Fan (May 19, 2005)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> Great thread, and lots of great ideas here.  I'll just state my purpose, really to explain to myself I guess.
> 
> Like Arty said, do it because you enjoy it.  I enjoy photography.  I enjoy being out in nature, during a bad storm, or in freezing cold, or a cool autumn day.  I love life, and photography puts me in touch with it.  I enjoy walking down a city street, watching the pulse of the city, observing it.  I enjoy thinking of the technical aspects of it.  The framing, the composition, the depth of field.  I enjoy the development, whether it be digital, or (soon to be) film.  I also enjoy sharing it, and hearing different interpretations.  I don't expect everyone to see what I see, or feel what I feel.  I don't think photographs, or at least the ones I take, are meant to document a literal scene, but rather to show someone a possibility, and to provoke a thought.
> 
> My ultimate goal though (in life), is just to be happy.




Very well said!!! There isn't anything I could add, the last line you wrote sums it all up for me as well   And yes great thread and insights everyone!


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## Hertz van Rental (May 20, 2005)

Digital Matt said:
			
		

> I don't expect everyone to see what I see, or feel what I feel.  I don't think photographs, or at least the ones I take, are meant to document a literal scene, but rather to show someone a possibility, and to provoke a thought.



And here you have hit the REAL problems of Photography.
These are the areas that I am really interested in. 
If Photography is a form of communication then - like writing - it should be possible for the viewer to see and feel what the photographer did (more or less). If it is not possible, then Photography is the modern Tower of Babel and we are all speaking in tongues and the activity becomes pointless.
Photography, by it's very nature, documents a literal scene - we can only photograph what is there. When we photograph a tree it is not a picture of just any tree but of THAT specific and unique tree. At the same time, we also see it as a metaphor for 'tree', representing ALL trees. It is this duality of purpose in a photograph that makes it so useful - and causes such problems.
More of all this later.


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## terri (May 20, 2005)

Hertz, I agree that photography be a medium that not only is a form of comunnication, in and by itself - but I also like appreciating it as one that further compells it.      

One of the most fascinating things to me is watching people who come into my booth at these art fairs I participate in.   I like watching them flip through the bins, pulling out a piece and studying it.   Or they glance over the framed stuff on the walls, then suddenly zero in on something and move closer.   What are they thinking?   What emotion has one of my images unwittingly evoked here?   Why are they smiling/frowning/looking like they have suddenly remembered something?   It wouldn't be in good form to pounce on all these people of course,  so I wait for the ones who actually come over to talk.  Truly, I don't care if they buy anything or not, if they actually want to engage in a discussion of the process.   Like Digital Matt was saying, for me it's about the_ love of the process_.   I put it out there for varied reasons, one of which is pragmatic (if I can sell enough to cover my costs I can do more) but the other has to do with this.   The engagement, the exchanges.   

What people see and how they react to something I've done is beyond my control.   I want it to be positive, and when I feel it has been....I guess that's my best sense of validation.


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## Corry (May 20, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> They may be crappy to you, but to others they may be high Art - I've heard people say that 'Art is in the eye of the beholder'...



JonMikal, Hertz made a fantastic point here.  There are many levels of photographers on this board, and many newbies may have yet to get to a level in which their good shots are not nearly as good as what you call your 'crap shots'.  I know if you would have been here when I first started, I probably wouldn't have noticed when you post something that wasn't quite up to speed with your norm.  

Also, I do seem to remember saying once or twice that a certain shot of yours didn't impress me as much as usual, but I personally haven't seen you post anything I would call "crap".  

And I had a pretty good feeling you were feeling that way about people 'blowing sugar' in your threads...also why I haven't been commenting as much.


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## JonMikal (May 20, 2005)

core_17 said:
			
		

> And I had a pretty good feeling you were feeling that way about people 'blowing sugar' in your threads...also why I haven't been commenting as much.


 
hold up, i like sugar!


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## Corry (May 20, 2005)

Uh oh...hear that ladies? Jon wants some SUGA!!!!


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## terri (May 20, 2005)

core_17 said:
			
		

> Uh oh...hear that ladies? Jon wants some SUGA!!!!


I prefer to call it "blowing sunshine".   :sun:  :mrgreen:


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## Hertz van Rental (May 20, 2005)

terri said:
			
		

> I prefer to call it "blowing sunshine".   :sun:  :mrgreen:


:shock: Don't you burn your mouth doing that?


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## danalec99 (May 20, 2005)

Hertz van Rental said:
			
		

> :shock: Don't you burn your mouth doing that?


 :lmao:


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