# Oh boy... PLEASE help, asap?



## sparrowblue (Jan 29, 2011)

Okay.  Wow, so... I posted about this before, but as I feared, it's grown to even more epic proportions.

I had a client contact me, after seeing my work, for some marketing work.  I went out, rented a car, found locations, and made myself available.  We signed a contract, and I showed up for a full day of photoing... (5AM til 6PM).

She wanted to buy FIFTEEN high res digital files, at $25 per photo (including edits, etc...).

Upon showing her the images, she wanted all 104.  I told her I could not give her all 104, and so I gave her 30 images (that's 15 free), with a note saying if there was another image she wanted really badly, to let me know, and I would send it her way, free of charge (trying to cut my losses with a difficult client).

I got an email today about how she is upset and wants all 104 images, because she was ignorant of how this whole process works, and that I am unfair for not giving her the images due to her ignorance.  In addition, she claims that I am not allowed to use any of the photos, because they are "her styling" (she acquired the clothing and makeup).

We signed a contract, that was for 15 images at $25.00, where I retained ALL rights. 

What the heck do I do from here.  I wanna keep things "friendly", but this feels like insanity to me.


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## Robin Usagani (Jan 29, 2011)

YOu need to ask your self how much money you want to make from lets say a 2 hour session. Lets just say a number... Lets do $350 (after session fee). Then you can just price your digital file for example $50/file. And then put.. if you buy 7 files, you get all the files from the proof. But also offer prints. Does that make sense?


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## CCericola (Jan 29, 2011)

Tell her you will contact your lawyer then get back to her. Then contact a lawyer.


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## sparrowblue (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for the advice so far... As for more money, she won't pay any extra, that I know!


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## Phranquey (Jan 29, 2011)

sparrowblue said:


> We signed a contract, that was for 15 images at $25.00, where I retained ALL rights.
> 
> I got an email today about how she is upset and wants all 104 images, because she was ignorant of how this whole process works, and that I am unfair for not giving her the images due to her ignorance. In addition, she claims that I am not allowed to use any of the photos, because they are "her styling" (she acquired the clothing and makeup).
> 
> What the heck do I do from here. I wanna keep things "friendly", but this feels like insanity to me.


 
There's a big difference between "keeping it friendly" and letting yourself be walked over.  If you have a contract which explicitly states a given amount of money for 15 prints, then that's where I would put my foot down.  Additional prints = additional $$.

And if the contract states that you retain all rights.... what's the question?  It doesn't matter if it's her "style".... she signed on the dotted line.


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## chito beach (Jan 29, 2011)

sparrowblue said:


> Thanks for the advice so far... As for more money, she won't pay any extra, that I know!



You have exceeded your contract with her. Be very nice and send her a formal letter with a copy of the contract and explain that she had only paid for 15 and received 30 and if she wished for more then you would be happy to sell her additional files in an additional contract.


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## vtf (Jan 29, 2011)

What business is she in, does she do business by contract? Good Luck, I know what I would do and if I felt my contract was explained fully and it was legit I would hold her to it. Thats what contracts are for, to identify what services will be rendered.


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## sierramister (Jan 29, 2011)

Is contacting a lawyer worth $300?  If you make an honest assessment of her and think she could drag this out to court, I would cut my losses and give her the pics.  I would pay $300 to not have to go downtown for the day, not to mention there exists the off-chance you lose and you're out even more.
Also, I get a lot of clients from word of mouth.  Consider the cost of her bad-mouthing you to potential clients.  I know its not your fault, but sometimes eating your loss pays off.
It reminds me of the completely irrational PITA customer sitting behind you at TGIF's who complains to no end about the food.  The management, who just want to get the customer out of there quietly, politely comps their meal and sends them on their way.
That's my advice, I'm sure some people have had different experiences.


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## Josh66 (Jan 29, 2011)

chito beach said:


> sparrowblue said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the advice so far... As for more money, she won't pay any extra, that I know!
> ...


This...




sierramister said:


> [...] she could drag this out to court, I would cut my losses and give her the pics.


I do not see any way possible that she could take this to court, or find an attorney willing to do so.

But, Your Honor, she wouldn't give me more than I asked for for free...  

:violin:


Once is odd, twice is kinda strange, three times will be a pattern.  I would sit down and ask yourself why you are getting these kinds of clients...

Maybe you need to raise your prices to weed out these kinds of clients...


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## sierramister (Jan 29, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> sierramister said:
> 
> 
> > [...] she could drag this out to court, I would cut my losses and give her the pics.
> ...


The partial quote makes it look like I'm saying she will drag it out.  But she is the lady from TGIF's who just won't shut up.  Plus, it looks like hiring a lawyer has been suggested once already here, and this is the OP's second post on the topic, so she must be a little concerned.


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## Josh66 (Jan 29, 2011)

sierramister said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > sierramister said:
> ...


Sorry about that.  You did imply that it was a possibility though.

I honestly don't see this ever seeing the inside of a courtroom.  Even if it (somehow) did, when someone sues you and looses, can't you make them pay your court/attorney fees?  I don't know about that for sure ... I would talk to an attorney before making any decisions on that.

It seems to me that the OP is beginning to show a pattern of being taken advantage of...  There is some other cause of this, and that must be eliminated or this will never stop.


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## e.rose (Jan 29, 2011)

Okay...

So she signed a contract confirming what it was you were going to deliver.  And then you delivered it, right?

THEN you went above and beyond that and gave her 15 MORE images for FREE... even though it WASN'T written into the contract.

She left happy.

Now she e-mails you upset stating that she wants the rest... FOR FREE?  Because SHE was ignorant of how that works?  First of all, she had plenty of chances to read over the contract, and ask questions on anything she was unclear about, I'm sure.  Second of all... I doubt your contract states "and in the case that you're totally ignorant to this whole process, just let me know and I'll give you ALL images for free."

I fail to see what the issue is.  I know she's bothering you about it, but what is your question?  How to keep it friendly?  You don't.

You keep it *PROFESSIONAL*... *certainly* keep it *professional*, but *YOU. OWE. HER. NOTHING.*

Furthermore... did you have her sign a model release?

Yes?

Then she needs to give up because she has no say on whether or not you can use the photos regardless of her "styling".

No?

Then you STILL *OWE. HER. NOTHING.*, *however*... send her back an e-mail stating that while you will not be issuing any more images free of cost (but you'd be happy to allow her to purchase as many as she'd like), you will not be actually *using* the photos for anything (which is where you will cut your losses... you won't use them for your online portfolio or anything to that affect), so you are not concerned with "not being able" to use the photos due to her "styling".

That's what I'd do.

But that's me.

And I agree... if she tries to take you to court... as long as you save the e-mails and your contract is in order... NO JUDGE could POSSIBLY care how much she WANTS the pictures, as long as *you* held up your end.  She's not going to win that fight.

Don't start the habit of letting people walk all over you.


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## tirediron (Jan 29, 2011)

^^ :thumbup:


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## bigtwinky (Jan 29, 2011)

how did she find out you had 104 images?
don't tell clients how many images you actually take during a shoot.  Its ok to ballpark it, but in some cases, such as this, they think they are being short changed.

But as everyone else said, be professional and tell her she needs to pay for more.

Her ignorance in "how things work" is really really stupid.  You mean to tell me she had no idea what a contract was and that you should be 100% clear on ALL its contents prior to signing?  

She is trying to milk you for more....


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## Trever1t (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't understand....were you expecting different answers by making another thread?

Stand up for yourself, make a decision and abide by it.


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## sparrowblue (Jan 30, 2011)

I want to thank everyone again for your knowledge and expertise... 
e.rose, major thanks for your no nonsense reply about the whole thing, it's very helpful.

Trever... I asked again, because she upped the ante, as it were.  Taking it from crazy to certifiable.  I am feeling in over my head, so I wanted to garner more semi-pro/pro opinions.

Again, thank you all!!  This information really helps.


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## Josh66 (Jan 30, 2011)

Is this the same lady as before, or someone else?


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## sparrowblue (Jan 30, 2011)

O|||||||O said:


> Is this the same lady as before, or someone else?



Same.  So much the same, unfortunately.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 30, 2011)

sparrowblue said:


> I want to thank everyone again for your knowledge and expertise...
> e.rose, major thanks for your no nonsense reply about the whole thing, it's very helpful.
> 
> Trever... I asked again, because she upped the ante, as it were.  Taking it from crazy to certifiable.  I am feeling in over my head, so I wanted to garner more semi-pro/pro opinions.
> ...



Don't be afraid to put your foot down.

What bad things can this customer say to anyone that is truthful, and doesn't make her sound like a fool?

You have the contract, stand by it. Go over it with her. Gladly sell her all the images she wants, with a discount for bulk purchase.

It sounds like you did this at a loss anyhow.


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## Croissant Seven (Jan 30, 2011)

This shouldn't even be a question. If you want to be in business, any kind of business, you need to be able to tell idiots to eff off. People will push you as far as you allow them to. You don't have to be rude, but neither do customers, and if someone is being pushy, all the more reason to stand your ground.

As far as taking it to court, make it clear that she's free to sue you if she wants to, but it works both ways. If she sues you and doesn't win, you get to sue her for legal costs and loss of income from having to spend time defending yourself and your business. 

Unless your contract is full of holes, she has no grounds to sue you in the first place.


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## e.rose (Jan 30, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> sparrowblue said:
> 
> 
> > I want to thank everyone again for your knowledge and expertise...
> ...





Croissant Seven said:


> This shouldn't even be a question. If you want to be in business, any kind of business, you need to be able to tell idiots to eff off. People will push you as far as you allow them to. You don't have to be rude, but neither do customers, and if someone is being pushy, all the more reason to stand your ground.
> 
> As far as taking it to court, make it clear that she's free to sue you if she wants to, but it works both ways. If she sues you and doesn't win, you get to sue her for legal costs and loss of income from having to spend time defending yourself and your business.
> 
> Unless your contract is full of holes, she has no grounds to sue you in the first place.



^^^These.


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## vtf (Jan 30, 2011)

This type of customer tends to have a friend or spouse who thinks they know the business and is poorly adivising this person. Good Luck. :thumbup:


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## Josh66 (Jan 30, 2011)

sparrowblue said:


> O|||||||O said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the same lady as before, or someone else?
> ...


In that case, ignore my comment about a pattern developing.


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