# making a pure white background



## kkamin

What would be the best way to make the background pure white but keep  the products shadows if possible?  (I'm not opposed to recreating the  shadows if needed).  Client wants a pure white background for this shot.  

I'm looking a an effective way to do this that won't take me an hour of  hand painting.  I was thinking so far that I could create clipping masks  of the objects, forget about the shadows, bring the background to a  clean white and then recreate the shadows.  But is there a better way?


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## Big Mike

If you can light the background separately from the product, you should be able to get it white.  Then you can use lighting on the product itself, to achieve a bit of shadow.  

It's a little tougher when the product is sitting right on the backdrop, but not impossible.

Adding a drop shadow in PS is pretty easy as well.  I've seen the Photoshop Guys do it many times.


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## LearnMyShot

try a big softbox over the top and then a separate light on the background on a boom to get it over the center and behind the objects....then all you need to do is balance out the light!!


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## BKMOOD

This is a very easy problem to fix. Use a grey card. I use them all the time. It's magic. Will solve that problem in a jiffy.

Watch this video and see... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5B4McYPls"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5B4McYPls[/ame]


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## JimmyO

just blow out the background with a flash/light and touch it up in post.


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## Christie Photo

I use the pen tool in Photoshop to create a path.

-Pete


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## kkamin

LearnMyShot said:


> try a big softbox over the top and then a separate light on the background on a boom to get it over the center and behind the objects....then all you need to do is balance out the light!!



Thanks for the reply.  That's how I lit it.  The problem is that you can see the "floor" of the sweep (where the product is sitting) and I can't blow that out without blowing the product out as well.  The upper background is 255,255,255 - exactly where I want it.  But where the product meets the paper it is about 210,210,210.


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## kkamin

BKMOOD said:


> This is a very easy problem to fix. Use a grey card. I use them all the time. It's magic. Will solve that problem in a jiffy.
> 
> Watch this video and see... www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5B4McYPls



Thanks for the reply.  I understand how to meter shots.  I was using a hand held incident meter, because I am using studio strobes.  I lit the background and the product separately.  I was able to control my exposure on the background to get a pure white.  But if I lit the paper under the product to that same level, it would blow out the product, because it is white too.  

That video is BS.  Buying that gray card isn't going to make magic fairies fly out of your camera and change the physics of light.  The shots they showed were creatively processed and are nearing unethical.  Especially the boot shot, there isn't a shadow.


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## Flash Harry

how about some stands for the product, light the backdrop for white f22, light the product f11, then Pshop out the stands. H


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## iamcombat

Probably more work than you might want to do but you could always shoot 2 exposures...one of the background without the product which would be over exposed, then another with normal exposure with the product there and merge them in photoshop


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## Sw1tchFX

BKMOOD said:


> This is a very easy problem to fix. Use a grey card. I use them all the time. It's magic. Will solve that problem in a jiffy.
> 
> Watch this video and see... www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5B4McYPls



Way to insult the viewers intelligence :er:


Everyone but Big Mike and flash harry are way off the mark. 



Distance is key.

You don't want to put the product on a seamless and nuke the back. You'll put a bunch of spill on the product and you'll effectively light it from the rear, and you'll run into almost exactly the same problem as what you have now. 




There are two ways to get a knocked out background that you'll find in mainstream commercial product photography today in (at least the major) studios:


The first, and generally most common with digital nowadays is to set up two sawhorses, prop the product up on something (C-stands are good for this because the knuckles are flexible for putting different tools in) and shoot the product IN FRONT of a gray seamless, NOT ON it. 

Gray seamless? Yes! becuase gray is neutral, it doesn't reflect much light back on the product if it's shiny (think shoe soles), and it's trivial to make a clipping path on it. You could even use the magic wand tool 90% of the time.




The 2nd way, and this is how you did it on film and depending on the product, was easier, or more complicated, again depends on the product. 

Get the two sawhorses again. roll out enough seamless onto the floor and let it go in between the sawhorses. Put a big pane of clean glass on top of the sawhorses. 

style and place the product how you want on the glass. light the product how you want. 

with two heads, nuke the white seamless that's underneath the product 2-3 stops over what the product is. 

done, looks great straight out of camera.





This completely unstyled shoe from a test shoot about a year ago was shot with the shoe on glass, white seamless just dropped and clamped down behind, and the two were lit seperate:

Straight out of camera:





After 45 seconds of painting in white:





Another 45-60 seconds and drop in a shadow:






Granted, the final product doesn't look great, i could have done better if i spent more than 105 seconds on it but the shooting was quick (we had 400 of these things and 5 days to shoot them 0_0), and we're ready for the next product.


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## flea77

It is always better to get the light right before the shot, but if you can't....






I used the magnetic lasso, inverted, new layer via copy, maxed out brightness and contrast on the new layer, applied gaussian blur to new layer, sharpened old layer, done. I really should have cleaned up the edges of the bottles a little but for quick and dirty, less than two minutes, not too shabby.

Allan


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## Sw1tchFX

flea77 said:


> It is always better to get the light right before the shot, but if you can't....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the magnetic lasso, inverted, new layer via copy, maxed out brightness and contrast on the new layer, applied gaussian blur to new layer, sharpened old layer, done. I really should have cleaned up the edges of the bottles a little but for quick and dirty, less than two minutes, not too shabby.
> 
> Allan



andyou can totally do that, but for full res images, where certain parts might not be in focus, things can get tricky and if you have to go through that much just to get the background white, than the shooting technique is in trouble.


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## Christie Photo

Sw1tchFX said:


> Get the two sawhorses ...




This will work with small products...  with limited angles of view.

I won't say you're "way off the mark,"...  just speaking too general.

-Pete


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## kkamin

Thanks for all the help so far everyone.  I've learned some great shooting techniques for specific situations.

But for the one that I have, I don't think there is a way to physically do it.  To blow out a white backdrop to a clean white (255,255,255) you need to over expose it.  If the product is sitting on a white floor that needs to be clean white (255,255,255) you'll end up blowing out the product, especially if it is white too.  You could take two exposures, one for the product and one for the sweep, but that is a post processing technique and not a shooting technique.  I think the easiest and most effective way is to create a path around the objects, mask out the existing background, add a pure white background layer in PS and then recreate the shadows using the original image as a guide.

If someone has an easier technique, please share.  : )


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## Sw1tchFX

kkamin said:


> Thanks for all the help so far everyone.  I've learned some great shooting techniques for specific situations.
> 
> But for the one that I have, I don't think there is a way to physically do it.  To blow out a white backdrop to a clean white (255,255,255) you need to over expose it.  If the product is sitting on a white floor that needs to be clean white (255,255,255) you'll end up blowing out the product, especially if it is white too.  You could take two exposures, one for the product and one for the sweep, but that is a post processing technique and not a shooting technique.  I think the easiest and most effective way is to create a path around the objects, mask out the existing background, add a pure white background layer in PS and then recreate the shadows using the original image as a guide.
> 
> If someone has an easier technique, please share.  : )



You're missing the point. 


If you read my post, you'd understand. 
Separate the product from the background. Create distance, like a few feet. 
Light the background and the foreground separately. 

that's what we did with the shoe, the background was a few feet behind, so there was no spill from the background onto the foreground. 



Seriously, people have been doing this on film for decades, before photoshop existed, it's not rocket science. I've seen 8x10 transparencies of product from 30 years ago that people today would say "oh that's so photoshopped". 


just put the bottles on a pane of glass that's elevated, put white seamless below on the floor. nuke the seamless, make sure it blows out, than light the bottles, get they're exposure right, and presto! You're done!

No Photoshop required!


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## kkamin

I understand what you are saying.  If I wanted that look I would just shoot on a frosted plexi table top sweep and blow out the glass from underneath.  I want to have shadows cast by the products to give them weight.  The purpose of the post wasn't shooting advice, because I think it is pretty much impossible to: blow out the wall and floor of the sweep to a clean white, not blow out white product sitting on the sweep and get cast shadows.  

The purpose of the post was the best way to deal with my image in post to get the backdrop (wall and floor) to a 255,255,255 and have some shadows.  I am looking for shooting advice if it would help speed up post processing.  The problem with your suggestion is that there would be no shadows to reference.  If all I shot were bottles it would be fine.  But there are many different shaped objects that I am photographing and some are organic like flowers and grass and it would be very difficult to create unquestionably realistic looking shadows full of nuance from supposition.


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## SusanMart

Christie Photo, I like what you got!


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## Sw1tchFX

kkamin said:


> I understand what you are saying.  If I wanted that look I would just shoot on a frosted plexi table top sweep and blow out the glass from underneath.


That' wouldn't work becuase you'd still be lighting the product itself, the plexi would just diffuse the light.



kkamin said:


> I want to have shadows cast by the products to give them weight.  The purpose of the post wasn't shooting advice, because I think it is pretty much impossible to: blow out the wall and floor of the sweep to a clean white, not blow out white product sitting on the sweep and get cast shadows.
> 
> The purpose of the post was the best way to deal with my image in post to get the backdrop (wall and floor) to a 255,255,255 and have some shadows.  I am looking for shooting advice if it would help speed up post processing.  The problem with your suggestion is that there would be no shadows to reference.  If all I shot were bottles it would be fine.  But there are many different shaped objects that I am photographing and some are organic like flowers and grass and it would be very difficult to create unquestionably realistic looking shadows full of nuance from supposition.



Than you'd have to pull the light away, light it evenly, and dodge everything around the product and shadow, trying to make sure that you don't dodge the product itself too. You'd have a hard time making it look _right_, which is why alot of times when you look in magazines the shadows of the products in the ads are fake. 

I'm just telling you how the bigger studios do it, i've seen it done a hundred times. If you don't think it's the right way, suit yourself.


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## kkamin

The backlit plexiglass technique has been around forever.  That's how I learned on film 8 years ago in college.  

220 Manfrotto Still Life Table with White Translucent Plexiglass Cover for Back or Front Lighting. Panel size: 78.8" x 49.25"

Product Photography: High-Key Lighting with Reflections  Jon C. Haverstick | PHOTOGRAPHY

The method you described I feel would end up being very difficult and time consuming.   I am going with the method of creating a path around my objects, using that as a mask to knock out the background, create a white layer underneath for the background and recreate the shadows using the original image as a reference.

I've posted this question on many forums as well as the American Society of Media Photographer's Proadvice List Serve.    This technique was confirmed by Dennis Dunbar, a digital artist/retoucher who is at the top of his field.

Home

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I appreciate it.


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## Christie Photo

kkamin said:


> This technique was confirmed by Dennis Dunbar, a digital artist/retoucher who is at the top of his field...



..._AND_ by me too.

-Pete


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## Dominantly

I would think shooting on plexiglass would be a nice enhancement to this shot.


But I digress. If I was doing it and refused to light the background and subject separately, I would use Topaz Remask, pull the product w/shadows from the scene, hit the backdrop with the levels tool to blow it, then enhance the product, and finally put it all back together.

It would probably take only 103 seconds.


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## kkamin

Dominantly said:


> But I digress. If I was doing it and refused to light the background and subject separately, I would use Topaz Remask, pull the product w/shadows from the scene, hit the backdrop with the levels tool to blow it, then enhance the product, and finally put it all back together.
> 
> It would probably take only 103 seconds.



I did light the background and subject separately.  The issue is that the background of the sweep and the foreground of the sweep are both in the shot.  It's been confirmed many times over that you can't blow out the paper under the subject and still get the subject properly lit with shadows.

Thanks for your reply.


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## moens

@Sw1tchFX: I registered for this forum just to say thanks for the answers you posted in this thread. I had to do a sizable jewelry product photo shoot recently, and your advice in this thread made me look like a genius. The influential manager was overwhelmed... and I was happy . Thanks a million.


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