# Beginner needs help!



## NinaRoxanne (Jan 22, 2010)

:mrgreen: HI!

I'm in need of some H-E-L-P!
I'm trying to get my photography business up and going and have just a few question!


First off. 
What would be the best lens to take newborn photos? 
I have an in-home studio. Basic black and white backdrop & 2 box umbrella lights. 


This is my website and the photos I have taken so far
http://www.wix.com/ninaroxanne/NinaRoxannePhotography

I a lot better without outside photos because my pictures come out so much clearer. 

For my in-home studio I'm not sure where to set the lights, or what setting to have my camera on! The photos come out better to me when the flash of my camera is off. I can set my flash on the lowest and it still comes out TOO much. 

I'm trying to do infant/toddler photos the most and we all know they move TONS! So I need my flash right!?

Help! Where do I put my lights? What do i put my camera on?  I want clear photos just like that ones i get from outside!


Also.. whats a must lens?  
I have a D60 & D40x


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 22, 2010)

Good luck!


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## KmH (Jan 22, 2010)

Get a Whibal card kit www.rawworkflow.com and learn to do a custom white balance so your clients have more realistic and consistant looking skin tones.

Work on keeping your camera level, unless you intend the image to have a dutch tilt.

You don't give much info on the lights you have. Are you using strobes or continuous lights? How high can you get your light stands to go? I'm not sure what kind of modifiers you are describing either. 

For starters, in a 2 light setup, put the main light to the left or right of the camera at about 45° or so and the second light, key light, should be on or very close to the lens axis and above the camera. The key light should be at least 1 stop less bright than the main light and 2 stops may look better. How far the lights are from the subject depends on the effect you want to get.

To make shadows look very soft the light needs to be as close to your subject as you can get them. As you move the lights away from the subject the shadows will get more definition and look harder.

Additionally, you can use a reflector(s) for additional fill. I often have one on the floor but propped up at an angle against my camera stand for just a kiss of fill from underneath.


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## jnm (Jan 22, 2010)

you need to fix the white balance of the pics on your site.


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## Derrel (Jan 22, 2010)

Nina,
   You are in need of some photographic training and lessons/skill-building. THere are a number of resources on the web, like the photo school at Photoflex.com and the "Strobist" blog run by David Hobby, as well as perhaps portraitlighting.net.

Kids do move. Sometimes a lot. Two large, 42x72 inch "panels" or "scrims" would be good for kid photos where you want a fairly broad,soft,even light that allows a toddler to move through the shooting space with relatively constant lighting. If you Google search under the terms "panels" or "scrim lighting" I think you will find the web site run by a guy who is a long-time veteran with panel or scrim lighting methods--I believe his site is called Lighting Magick, with a k at the end. I don't want to pass judgement, but I do think that panel lighting techniques would be the single,best method for a person with your background,and with your stated desires.

With a few turf stakes,and a few sandbags, and some additional fabrics, you could use your panels in-studio, outdoors, and also in people's homes. You will need some low-cost lights to shoot through the panels. A must-have lens for a 1.5x Nikon would be something like a Sigma 24-70 or the recently discontinued by still excellent Nikon 24-85mm AF-S G series lens with the 67mm filter size. NOT the 24-85mm f/2.8-4 older lens--that will not AF on the D40.

Good luck.


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## MosaicW (Jan 22, 2010)

jnm said:


> you need to fix the white balance of the pics on your site.



Is this achievable afterwards in PS, or can you not really fix it completely if you simply screwed it up when you took the shot?  I have a lot of grey b&w shots that look just like these...


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## MACollum (Jan 22, 2010)

With black and white pictures, the white balance doesn't matter. This can be fixed by eye using the color balance tool in PS or better yet, use levels. I try to set the WB in levels if I can't get it right in Lightroom or DPP. In CS4 I do a levels adjustment layer and click on the middle eyedropper in the pane to the left (which is the gray dropper). Then you click on an area in the picture that should be neutral gray (sometimes part of an eye works, sometimes not). and watch to see what the color does. This does not always work for me (maybe someone else has a better way in PS). Then I try color balance and work with that until I get there.

If you're shooting in RAW, it may be easier to use your favorite RAW conversion software.


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## ChasK (Jan 22, 2010)

Your kidding right?  This is a joke someone put you up to it.  Your actually going to sell edited cds for $50 dollars?  This is like the joke about the guy who buys pencils for 7 cents and sells them for a nickel.  He's going to make it up in volume!  So, if you shoot 3 sessions a day, three days a week, for 52 weeks a year, plus spend two or three days every week editing, and another day taking care of taxes and general business chores,  your willing to do all that work and gross less than 25k per year?   Subtract your operating costs like equipment, supplies, props, and taxes.  Girl your gonna have to get another job so you can afford to go to work.  Sorry if this sounds harsh but I can't believe your gonna take peoples hard earned money, call yourself a photographer, and you don't even know what kind of lights you have.  Please tell me this is not for real.

I have nothing against you becoming a photographer but what your doing is a recipe for disaster, it's like opening a law office, then asking lawyers how to practice law.  Learn the craft first, then open a business.  Your work is not bad, you have a good eye for composition and it appears you can work well with children, but IMHO your still a long way from quality portraiture.  Please for your customers sake, get that horse back in front of the cart.  A love of photography is essential, in this business, but not enough.  You currently need both competent photography and business training to succeed.


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## Derrel (Jan 22, 2010)

ChasK said:


> Your kidding right?  This is a joke someone put you up to it.  Your actually going to sell edited cds for $50 dollars?  This is like the joke about the guy who buys pencils for 7 cents and sells them for a nickel.  He's going to make it up in volume!  So, if you shoot 3 sessions a day, three days a week, for 52 weeks a year, plus spend two or three days every week editing, and another day taking care of taxes and general business chores,  your willing to do all that work and gross less than 25k per year?   Subtract your operating costs like equipment, supplies, props, and taxes.  Girl your gonna have to get another job so you can afford to go to work.  Sorry if this sounds harsh but I can't believe your gonna take peoples hard earned money, call yourself a photographer, and you don't even know what kind of lights you have.  Please tell me this is not for real.
> 
> I have nothing against you becoming a photographer but what your doing is a recipe for disaster, it's like opening a law office, then asking lawyers how to practice law.  Learn the craft first, then open a business.  Your work is not bad, you have a good eye for composition and it appears you can work well with children, but IMHO your still a long way from quality portraiture.  Please for your customers sake, get that horse back in front of the cart.  A love of photography is essential, in this business, but not enough.  You currently need both competent photography and business training to succeed.




Chas, seems like you missed the big news story called "Baby On Board, and
a Photography Business, Too", published by the New York Times in 2007.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/business/yourmoney/15cameras.html

The OP is a member of a huge, growing trend of female shooters who are new to photography, and yet are beginning photography businesses.


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## ChasK (Jan 22, 2010)

I know, you'll see them next on the call for help consumer section on TV because they screwed up the session, because all the pictures came out blue, and because they work so cheap they can't afford to refund their customers.


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## ChasK (Jan 22, 2010)

I've been asked no less than 5 time this last year, from my customers who thought they were getting a deal, if I could fix their pictures.  I feel bad for them because I can usually fix the color and if the exposure is not too far off that too, but the aspect ratio is what it is.  Sometimes I even "fix" that.  Unfortunately for the customer it costs more to "fix" them than to do it right in the camera.  The question is:  What would you rather have 35 unusable digital files for $50 or a really good print for $100.  While the consumer thinks they are getting a deal, they're not getting value.


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## tailz03 (Jan 22, 2010)

Some people just have too much money to spend.  Ive been doing photography for 6 years now, semi pro for a year and i wish i could afford a studio.. Instead people who still need to learn before doing anything else get whatever they like. Meh Bitter much? ...lol.


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## ChasK (Jan 22, 2010)

tailz03 said:


> Some people just have too much money to spend.  Ive been doing photography for 6 years now, semi pro for a year and i wish i could afford a studio.. Instead people who still need to learn before doing anything else get whatever they like. Meh Bitter much? ...lol.



They must, how else can they afford to sell for less than it cost them?


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## keith foster (Jan 22, 2010)

She only posted once and hasn't replied back to the advice given or to questions asked.  Do you suppose she got responses she was not ready for and was overwhelmed or just decided to go on blindly?
I hope everything works out for her in her new venture,  sounds like a easy gig.  Not many barriers to entry to the field, cheap p&s camera, 2 flashlights and a couple of old bed sheets, we're in.  I think photographers average around 6 figures according so  a couple of threads on here this week.  Wonder why everybody doesn't become a photographer?


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Here I am to respond. I will respond to all. 

I thought coming to talk to the "pros" would be a good idea. Seems as though I should have stuck to my normal group of asking questions to. 

But I'll be right back to respond ... and thank you to the ones with class and offered advice rather than a shut down :thumbdown:


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

ChasK said:


> Your kidding right?  This is a joke someone put you up to it.  Your actually going to sell edited cds for $50 dollars?  This is like the joke about the guy who buys pencils for 7 cents and sells them for a nickel.  He's going to make it up in volume!  So, if you shoot 3 sessions a day, three days a week, for 52 weeks a year, plus spend two or three days every week editing, and another day taking care of taxes and general business chores,  your willing to do all that work and gross less than 25k per year?   Subtract your operating costs like equipment, supplies, props, and taxes.  Girl your gonna have to get another job so you can afford to go to work.  Sorry if this sounds harsh but I can't believe your gonna take peoples hard earned money, call yourself a photographer, and you don't even know what kind of lights you have.  Please tell me this is not for real.
> 
> I have nothing against you becoming a photographer but what your doing is a recipe for disaster, it's like opening a law office, then asking lawyers how to practice law.  Learn the craft first, then open a business.  Your work is not bad, you have a good eye for composition and it appears you can work well with children, but IMHO your still a long way from quality portraiture.  Please for your customers sake, get that horse back in front of the cart.  A love of photography is essential, in this business, but not enough.  You currently need both competent photography and business training to succeed.




:er: I don't believe I came here with "jokes". & I believe you read my prices wrong. $35 & $65 would be correct. 

Also, If I already have a studio, 2 different Nikons, all the lights I need, backdrops, CS4... why would I spend anymore money. It was a one time investment of money.. that will continue to bring in money. 

I do not HAVE to get another job. Thank God my husband brings in enough money to support a family of 4. Thank you United States Army.  :thumbup: So I will not be needing another job. 

So I dont know what kind of lights I have.. I play around with them.. take a picture, see if it works that way and when it doesnt, I move it. 
I'm glad your all fancy smancy with photography. Maybe you love the "classic" look of photos.  But not everyone has the same style. 
I'm sure there will be people who LOVE my photos over yours. Of course they aren't technical with the picture saying, oh the white balance in the picture isn't correct.  No.. they are going to see a great looking pictures because I do great looking pictures. Weather or not its up to your "quality" or not. 

I'd rather pay $50 for my photos. Than $100 for one photo of ANYONES.
Also the entire reason i bought the studio is I had a professional photographer come to my house to take newborn photos for me. I loved them all... could I afford them no.   I also went to Sears and had photos later on taken of my son. I loved every single one of those photos. Could I get them all ... of course not.  
I spend about the same amount of money on the studio that I would have spend on having my sons photos taken for the entire year. I love the photos I take of him, and I can keep every single one of them.

Now tell me... do you think ALL families want to come to you for ONE photo, or come to me for good photos and have all of them. 

I have had NO problem what so ever with anyone disliking my work.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

> Chas, seems like you missed the big news story called "Baby On Board, and
> a Photography Business, Too", published by the New York Times in 2007.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/business/yourmoney/15cameras.html
> 
> The OP is a member of a huge, growing trend of female shooters who are new to photography, and yet are beginning photography businesses.




:hail:  AMEN!

"Because the overhead can be minimal &#8212; some business cards and a lot of chatting on playgrounds &#8212; and because many new photographers have either a full-time job or a husband with one, they can afford to charge less than professional photographers. The professionals, who assert that they offer better quality because of their experience and studio equipment, may charge from $50 to several hundred dollars for an 8-by-10-inch print."


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

tailz03 said:


> Some people just have too much money to spend.  Ive been doing photography for 6 years now, semi pro for a year and i wish i could afford a studio.. Instead people who still need to learn before doing anything else get whatever they like. Meh Bitter much? ...lol.




I only wish I had "too much" money to spend.  I think 6 years could have saved up for it by now :thumbup:


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

I would also like to share to ALL of you.

"Photography Beginners' Forum & Photo Gallery Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Dont be shy! Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here. Show us some of the photos you have taken so far and get some review - so you can learn where there is room for improvement!"

i posted in the right forum right?   So why the need to jump down my through for owning the studio, owning the camera, and calling myself a photographer. 

I know some car salesmen that sell some pretty ****ty cars and can still call themselves a car salesmen. 

Look up your definition of photography, and professional photography.. I did not come in here saying I was any kind of professional. 

But I'm also not putting my child in day care, driving to locations, having people in my home for free.  So what if I charge.


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## manicmike (Jan 24, 2010)

The point is you're a beginner and you're opening a photography business. You should be knowledgeable about your product before you sell it in any business.


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## mom2eight (Jan 24, 2010)

Nina, 
Im new to photography only had my DSLR for about a year. This group is very honest, and sometimes brutal but all in all you can learn a whole lot if you can get past the in your face approach. It's difficult to get CC but if its done correctly it can be very helpful. I also have a love for photography but ive made the choice to craft my skill before I try to get paying clients. I don't want to just be a photographer, I want to be a great photographer. Take your time, and practice, practice and practice some more. Everything in life worth something takes time and focus. Dont give up and don't let a little harsh CC stop you, let it drive you to be better. I look forward to seeing you around the forum posting some more photos. By the way im a military spouse also, we gotta stick together. LOL


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 24, 2010)

I got a photography website built, got a photography business started.

...guess I better get a camera and learn how to use it.

These same kinds of threads, over and over and over andoverandoverandover again just kill me.

I don't know where this happens any more than in photography.

She says "Look up your definition of photography, and professional photography.. I did not come in here saying I was any kind of professional."

Not real clear how you can open a photography business, take pictures, sell them" and that not be called a professional photographer?


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## keith foster (Jan 24, 2010)

As one who responded to your OP and wasn't very helpful I would like to explain why I replied as I did.  You did post in the beginners forum which is for feedback on those who are getting started and learning to get better just as you pointed out.   However, you represented yourself as a professional, with a clientele and a history.

How your photography was critiqued was based on the fact you are selling your photos and charging for your services and presented as professional work looking for feedback.  Obviously a different standard than others who post in the beginner section asking how to improve their work so that they might someday be able to sell their work and be comfortable they are delivering a quality product worth payment.  

Good luck in your venture.  I hope you continue to be successful.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

mom2eight said:


> Nina,
> Im new to photography only had my DSLR for about a year. This group is very honest, and sometimes brutal but all in all you can learn a whole lot if you can get past the in your face approach. It's difficult to get CC but if its done correctly it can be very helpful. I also have a love for photography but ive made the choice to craft my skill before I try to get paying clients. I don't want to just be a photographer, I want to be a great photographer. Take your time, and practice, practice and practice some more. Everything in life worth something takes time and focus. Dont give up and don't let a little harsh CC stop you, let it drive you to be better. I look forward to seeing you around the forum posting some more photos. By the way im a military spouse also, we gotta stick together. LOL



:hug::  Oh I'm use to brutal and honest ( I'm also part of a military spouse board). & I certainly can dish it right back :mrgreen:

I'm one to give help and not judge. Hopefully there are others here that will continue to help me, give me advice, and answer my questions.  Which I could just delete the post that I receive that have nothing to do with the original post or any words of advice. 


Also some advice for you.. (since i'm nice like that and can help rather than put down  

There is a program MyCAA that will pay for a professional photography course for you being a military spouse through the New York Institute of Photography .... completely free... once again thank you United States Army. If you have anymore questions about it, I can help you sign  up for it


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 24, 2010)

NinaRoxanne said:


> I'm sure there will be people who LOVE my photos over yours. Of course they aren't technical with the picture saying, oh the white balance in the picture isn't correct. No.. they are going to see a great looking pictures because I do great looking pictures. Weather or not its up to your "quality" or not.


 
Yeah! Who cares about white balance!! :thumbup:


"New Your Institute of Photography"
What? Really?


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

keith foster said:


> As one who responded to your OP and wasn't very helpful I would like to explain why I replied as I did.  You did post in the beginners forum which is for feedback on those who are getting started and learning to get better just as you pointed out.   However, you represented yourself as a professional, with a clientele and a history.
> 
> How your photography was critiqued was based on the fact you are selling your photos and charging for your services and presented as professional work looking for feedback.  Obviously a different standard than others who post in the beginner section asking how to improve their work so that they might someday be able to sell their work and be comfortable they are delivering a quality product worth payment.
> 
> Good luck in your venture.  I hope you continue to be successful.




"Not many barriers to entry to the field, cheap p&s camera, 2 flashlights and a couple of old bed sheets, we're in. "


That made me laugh. Who's to say what kind of studio I have.. I have great equipment.  & I do know many photographers who have a sheet set up and can take great photos also. 


So "professional" photographers can change oodles of money for their pictures. 

My prices are cheap. Which means I know I am NO professional. 
Just because I'm no professional doesnt mean I can't sell something I see as art. *Something that a person agrees to buy because they love it.*


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NinaRoxanne said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure there will be people who LOVE my photos over yours. Of course they aren't technical with the picture saying, oh the white balance in the picture isn't correct. No.. they are going to see a great looking pictures because I do great looking pictures. Weather or not its up to your "quality" or not.
> ...




New York Institute of Photography. 
Woo hoo... i made an error. OH MY. 

I also wouldn't let a complete ass take my sons photos either.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 24, 2010)

You cannot hold a logical discussion when there is logic on only one side of such discussion.

This is the kind of thread where nobody wins.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

:lmao:  Is there an ignore member feature on this board. I'd like to use it. 

Giving someone advice/telling someone what they would change about the photos is completely different from being plain rude.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 24, 2010)

OP has great equipment, just doesn't know what kind of lens to use.

Because that is something a photographer learns, in time...

These guys come here with an attitude, asking ridiculous questions for one opening a business, then get insulted when someone answers their question honestly, telling them that they are nowhere even close to ready to being a professional photographer.

Somehow, methinks that a professional photographer would know what equipment to use in almost any situation, because they have *experience* and they know their craft and their equipment.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 24, 2010)

Yes, there is an ignore feature.
It's right here:

Ignore


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

PatrickHMS said:


> OP has great equipment, just doesn't know what kind of lens to use.
> 
> Because that is something a photographer learns, in time...
> 
> ...




QUESTION WAS

best lens to use with newborn shots.
& I have about 10 lens.


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## mom2eight (Jan 24, 2010)

Nina yes there is an ignore!  Hey I would like to know more about the Art Institute I looked into them but never went forward.  My DH deployed today so that will give me somthing to do to pass the time.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 24, 2010)

NinaRoxanne said:


> QUESTION WAS
> 
> best lens to use with newborn shots.
> & I have about 10 lens.


 
Why do you need so many lens?

And hands down, the best lens for a newborn would be a Lens Baby.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

mom2eight said:


> Nina yes there is an ignore!  Hey I would like to know more about the Art Institute I looked into them but never went forward.  My DH deployed today so that will give me somthing to do to pass the time.



I just used  the ignore feature. Things look a lot better now :thumbup:

Military Spouse Career Advancement Accounts - Military OneSource

Go there... 
make an account, when you pick a school sign up for NYIP - Photography | Photography School | New York Institute of Photography | NYIP

I couldn't figure out how to create a plan.. so after i registered for the school, I called the mycaa and they bascially helped me set up everything


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NinaRoxanne said:
> 
> 
> > QUESTION WAS
> ...



if you knew your photography.. you'd know about lens. 

D60 & D40X ... some are not compatible with both


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## mom2eight (Jan 24, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NinaRoxanne said:
> 
> 
> > QUESTION WAS
> ...


 
I've seen others talk about the lensbaby, but I don't know anything about it. Is it an attachment to the lens or is it an actually lens? Looks like it has a nice soft bokeh effect. Do you shoot with one?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 24, 2010)

NinaRoxanne said:


> if you knew your photography.. you'd know about lens.
> 
> D60 & D40X ... some are not compatible with both


 
Well, if you knew your photography, you'd know which lens to use for photography of newborns, wouldtcha?


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NinaRoxanne said:
> 
> 
> > QUESTION WAS
> ...





No need for somone else to quote you. You weren't the ignored one


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> NinaRoxanne said:
> 
> 
> > if you knew your photography.. you'd know about lens.
> ...



Always can learn more, eh.


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## mom2eight (Jan 24, 2010)

Nina im so excited!  Thanks for the info im gonna check it tomorrow.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 24, 2010)

mom2eight said:


> I've seen others talk about the lensbaby, but I don't know anything about it. Is it an attachment to the lense or is it an actually lense? Looks like it has a nice soft bokeh effect. Do you shoot with one?


 
They are lenses. I have not shot any of the lens babies, but I am looking into it. They are pretty specialized.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

mom2eight said:


> Nina im so excited!  Thanks for the info im gonna check it tomorrow.



  Glad I could help!  Its even an at home learning thing.. they send you all kinds of disk. But you are also graded and such

I've heard plenty of people say good stuff about it


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 24, 2010)

_A lensbaby is a lens you use to shoot babies with, w_ith a Baby Nikon camera body.

Yeah, right!

Ever hear of Ali Baba and the Magic Lantern Guide?

This thread is insane....lol


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## Joves (Jan 24, 2010)

Well while I have no lens advice. I would say that the music you are using on your site could get you in trouble, unless of course you got permission to use it from the recoding company. Well in truth any quality lens will do the job. It is a matter of knowing how to use it to get what you want out of it. 
 My suggestion is you fully learn the craft and, then go into business but, in this modern era that concept seems to have disappeared. I have learned myself but, I have been shooting since I was 9 and that was back in the 60s and, truth be known Im still learning. Also I must ask are you shooting in RAW/NEF because that is the way you need to shoot, to get the most in post processing.
 And I will be another to say good luck.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 24, 2010)

To make an analogy - when you see early episodes of "American Idol", where "singers" try out, and when you hear them, many are so terrible that you cannot even believe that they don't realize that they don't know how to sing, but they are still heartbroken when they are rejected, and the judges don't know what they are doing for rejecting them.

Same here, when a "pro" wannabee comes here, asking some of the questions they ask, and how they phrase them, even reasonably experienced photographers here on TPF know they have no chance of "going to Hollywood".

But person asking still becomes angry at us for honestly answering their stupid questions.  And at this point, these kinds of questions are stupid.


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 24, 2010)

PatrickHMS said:


> To make an analogy - when you see early episodes of "American Idol", where "singers" try out, and when you hear them, many are so terrible that you cannot even believe that they don't realize that they don't know how to sing, but they are still heartbroken when they are rejected, and the judges don't know what they are doing for rejecting them.
> 
> Same here, when a "pro" wannabee comes here, asking some of the questions they ask, and how they phrase them, even reasonably experienced photographers here on TPF know they have no chance of "going to Hollywood".
> 
> But person asking still becomes angry at us for honestly answering their stupid questions.  And at this point, these kinds of questions are stupid.



well let's not waste your time and YOU can move on... 
I still dont understand why your still harping about it.. go on and talk to your professionals that know it all and take fantastic photos


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## WaywardShinobi (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm a complete noob and I want to make my own business as well.  HOWEVER, I will not do that until I get EXPERIENCE.  I don't feel comfortable charging people for anything unless it's of the best quality possible.  I DO wish you luck however.  I understand wanting to do it NOW, but experience is key just like everything.  Furthermore, it seems like the definition of the word "professional" is somewhat misrepresented in a few posts here.  Dictionary.com says: "Professional:  following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder."  By definition, you are saying you are a professional photographer since you say you're following photography as an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain.  In that case, don't present yourself that way if you yourself says otherwise.  Another definition of "professional" is someone with enough EXPERIENCE in his/her occupation as to have the ability to teach others/offer apprenticeship.  All in all though, keep at it and by all means have your "profession", but don't come asking questions that you don't like the answers to.  That's just ridiculous.  Good luck!


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## mammarazzi (Jan 25, 2010)

Hey MSSN sista! It's Ordiwife. Look take what you will from these guys. I went through the same thing here. Everyone is very critical here as they should be but it can be a little harsh. I'm about to pm you.


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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

NinaRoxanne,

Usually I find some harsh truth on here too... but for once... I gotta agree with every poster that has replied to you.  I got crapped on here because photography is a hobby for me and my husband bought me a D700 for my birthday.  My husband knows nothing about photography other than the fact that i love it.. I'm still learning how to use it... and my SB900 flash that he bought me along with it... hasn't even been off the hotshoe, because i'm embarrased to say that i'm trying to learn about off camera lighting.  I am a beginner with professional equipment because my husband bought me the best on the market. but with that being said I am in NO way a professional trying to start up a business and charge people for my work.  i'm learning.

I took some maternity pictures for a friend (for free of course!) and a friend of hers liked them and wanted to pay me to take picture of her.  I was so excited thinking I could make money off this hobby of mine so I got on TPF and asked what should I charge??  I got some good mixed response that instead of getting pissy over, I took it to heart and thought about what they said.  I thought about it for DAYS on end and opted not to charge at all... how can I charge someone something when I can't gauruntee the quality.  Even if they are willing to pay for the photoshoot, I am not business-savy or technically qualified to charge.  I used her as practice and practice only.

Look, I'm a military wife and a new mom too, sure we love taking pics of our kids, and yes our friends oooh and ahhh over our facebook pictures and want us to take pictures of their kids... but the fact that you stated technicality doesn't matter in your pictures, you just take it and if it works great... and the fact that you're not sure what lenses to use because you have 10 of them, and you don't know what lighting you have... ARGH, all the REALLY important questions you have but you're able to get a website up and pricing.... 

its awesome you are able to purchase nice equipment to learn on... if you can afford to learn to drive on a lexus, why buy a kia... but to buy a bunch of stuff and not know how to use it and THEN charge for it... i have to agree with the others... its ridiculous.  Dont respond with a pissy attitude because we tell you how it is.  An online course and a bag full of gear and website.. now you can call yourself a photographer and charge people... is an ethically wrong thing to do in the business world.  

What if I took an online course, bought some medical equipment, got a website and called myself a doctor.  Even though I get lucky with exams... but now I got some questions so I get on a forum to ask what instrument to use for a particular exam...my friends say I'm good at it and they are willing to pay me because I'm pretty good and why pay $100 at the doctors office when they can come to me for half the price?  I also have no business liscense, no accountant, no tax forms, etc.  Am I still legit?

See why we are telling you this?!  Keep shooting and enjoy it... by all means take pictures for friends... but you owe it to a consumer to know what you are doing before you charge for it.

Oh, and by the looks of your pictures on your website... learning white balance would indeed help... its not just a fancy pancy term the pros use... its in chapter 1 of every how-to digital photography book ... good luck!


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## pcacj (Jan 25, 2010)

I am also new and I can relate to the OPs feelings.  How can a newbie feel comfortable posting openly if they think they are going to be slammed by the old timers?  If words were chosen as carefully as photographs were taken by some of the responders, she would welcome your feedback more readily.  It seems that because this is digital and not face-to-face, some responders choose to respond with a negative disposition (even rude) rather than a positive.  Almost anything can be said in a positive manner.  I am sure you do not talk that way to people in your daily business practices.


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## mom2eight (Jan 25, 2010)

Pc nicely said


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## NinaRoxanne (Jan 25, 2010)

pcacj said:


> I am also new and I can relate to the OPs feelings.  How can a newbie feel comfortable posting openly if they think they are going to be slammed by the old timers?  If words were chosen as carefully as photographs were taken by some of the responders, she would welcome your feedback more readily.  It seems that because this is digital and not face-to-face, some responders choose to respond with a negative disposition (even rude) rather than a positive.  Almost anything can be said in a positive manner.  I am sure you do not talk that way to people in your daily business practices.



:thumbup:  That is right! 

Like I said, I wouldn't want some of these Photographers taking pictures of my son knowing the rudeness they have. 

I am a nice person, and I can except harsh things.. But i've seen tons of plain out rude!

Their feedback and post did nothing for me but just be negative.  Which 
it will go in one ear and out the other because of the rudeness. If it were given in a different approach, it may have been more helpful.

In the meantime.. i'll keep doing what i do.


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## Annamas (Jan 25, 2010)

> NinaRoxanne,
> 
> Usually I find some harsh truth on here too... but for once... I gotta agree with every poster that has replied to you. I got crapped on here because photography is a hobby for me and my husband bought me a D700 for my birthday. My husband knows nothing about photography other than the fact that i love it.. I'm still learning how to use it... and my SB900 flash that he bought me along with it... hasn't even been off the hotshoe, because i'm embarrased to say that i'm trying to learn about off camera lighting. I am a beginner with professional equipment because my husband bought me the best on the market. but with that being said I am in NO way a professional trying to start up a business and charge people for my work. i'm learning.
> 
> ...


 
That's the truth.  Well said.


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## Shelly1204 (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, if you think the posters on here are rude, just wait until someone expecting a professional photographer pays you to shoot their kids, and you give them snapshots. Not everyone has low expectations. If you're charging money, you have to be prepared for high expectations, not beginner expectations, and advice was given to you accordingly.

You have 10 lenses, but you don't know how to set your white balance? And you're looking to buy another lens? I think you need to slow down, spend some more time with your camera's manual, spend some time on strobist.com and other sites where you can learn about your craft for free. Then, sell some of your lenses, and spend the money on education. "understanding exposure" would be a good place to start. If books aren't your thing, pick up some instructional DVDs geared towards your camera. You can find them used on amazon.com for cheap. Then, look for a local photography meetup group in your area (Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup.com), and meet with and speak to as many people as possible. Good luck.


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## bazooka (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm more of a capitalist myself.  I think if she can sell her photos, and wants to, then go for it.  Nothing wrong with that.  If people aren't happy after they see them, then she'll hear about it, maybe get in some legal issues (or not), and either keep going or not.  I know if I took a great shot and someone offered me money for a large print, I'd be ecstatic.  I admire the drive of someone who jumps in head first and sticks with it through the ups and downs.


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## pharmakon (Jan 25, 2010)

I Have a piano in my house, my wife is learning to play, but I already know how to plunk out jingle bells on one hand and can play a mean "heart and soul." I can even play a basic scale correctly from watching my wife practice, but I don't know how to read music though. Would you pay me to teach your children piano? Would you pay to watch me play it?

I have pro tools LE on my computer and a couple of mid range microphones. Do you think I might be able to open a successful recording studio in my spare bedroom?

I have a boat and like to go fishing. Sometimes I catch a keeper, most of the time I don't. Think I might be able to make good money as a fishing guide/charter?

Do my questions seem foolish to you? 

Of course they do! It takes both experience and education to run a successful business, especially one that is talent, service or skill based. 

Even in the american Idol example. Do you think the people that make it past the initial cuts just hang out and party until they start the show? no. They practice, take voice lessons, and work really hard to improve their chances of becoming a professional artist.

Did the military send your husband overseas without first training him on survival, weaponry, hand to hand combat, and many other essential skills? Do you think the soldier sitting next to him in the convoy would have to ask what kind of ammunition goes in his rifle?

Look at it from a different perspective and see that by opening a photography business and therefore taking the title of professional without the required skill and training you are insulting those that have worked hard for years to perfect the art and get where they are today. 

I'm not trying to discourage you from following your dream, if that is what you are doing with this, but I agree with the others that say you should have a thorough understanding of the art and be able to consistently produce outstanding results before you start charging people.

I saw you mentioned that you have a wonderful opportunity to take the NYIP course for FREE! My advice to you would be to take that up and give it everything you have. Once you have finished the course look back at this thread, and the photos referenced, to see if the harsh criticisms you received might make more sense to you after you develop your photographic skills and vision. 

First you must master your craft, then draft your business plan. Don't sell your self short, make a profit with your skill instead of just trying to break even on your equipment purchases by the time they need replaced.

And for my final words of wisdom for the day... I remember part of a speech from the first year of grad school about the long road ahead in our education. I don't remember exactly what it was but here's the meat and potatoes so to speak:

At some point in your education you will come across the realisation of just how much you really don't know, and it is at this point you can be confident that you have made at least some progress.

Keep shooting :thumbup:


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## mammarazzi (Jan 25, 2010)

You guys say that someone may be expecting her to be professional and all but yet you forget that she's got a web site out there for people to look at. That will let people know if she is what they are looking for. And if they aren't checking it out then they probably wouldn't care. I think the smart people would want to know what there getting right? I don't openly charge but most people want to give me somthing just for my time. I know for a fact that there are people on here in hiding because I posted this when I bacame a member here and there were tons of ya'll that charge sitting fees because you value your time and such....or you're just so tired of argueing you just gave up like me.


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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

NinaRoxanne said:


> pcacj said:
> 
> 
> > I am also new and I can relate to the OPs feelings.  How can a newbie feel comfortable posting openly if they think they are going to be slammed by the old timers?  If words were chosen as carefully as photographs were taken by some of the responders, she would welcome your feedback more readily.  It seems that because this is digital and not face-to-face, some responders choose to respond with a negative disposition (even rude) rather than a positive.  Almost anything can be said in a positive manner.  I am sure you do not talk that way to people in your daily business practices.
> ...



Nina, you're right... NO ONE on here deserves to be responded to in a rude way (unless youre trolling the forum posting crap).  There is truth, but there's always a nice way to say it.

I normally don't respond to these threads, because I see them about 5 times a week someone asking questions about a gig coming up and they aren't prepared for and the same posters laugh and tell them to pick up their camera and practice before taking money... but as one "mom with a camera" to another, I find truth in what the peeps on here are saying... they aren't saying this to belittle you, but to genuinely help you out in the long run.  If this is such a life passion to you (as you stated in your website), then you owe it to yourself to spend time to really learn the art and technique... which is not something that is going to come overnight.  Have fun with it, and trust me you will find GREAT advice from amateurs and pros alike on this site... i've learned SO much already so please don't dismiss the feedback you've gotten here on this thread.

I was looking through a photoblog the other day, and I told my husband "wow, I wish I could take some shots like these."  He told me a story his father told him:  After a concert, a woman had the opportunity to meet Mozart.  She said, "I have a piano and love to play... I would love to play music like you one day" and Mozart replied "you can, if you practice 12 hours a day every day for the past 20 years..."  How can we expect to become great if we don't take the time to learn?  The great ones earn money and are respected.  And as you can see from the responses to your post and to similiar posts, ones that don't take the time to master their "profession" that they start a business with generally aren't respected in the art community.

Good luck and hope to see more posts from you!  :hug::


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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

pharmakon said:


> At some point in your education you will come across the realisation of just how much you really don't know, and it is at this point you can be confident that you have made at least some progress.



Love it! Thanks for this quote!


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## jnm (Jan 25, 2010)

i dont usually post in these threads but when i do it is usually the same thing.  so long as you are honest about your abilities, set and manage their expectations to a realistic level, and the results are within those expectations then i dont see anything wrong with it.  if you're open and honest and people still want to pay then go for it, but be prepared that you may have to offer refunds still, just be open and willing to.  

it's when you try and hide things from people and just hope & pray the results are great or fake it till you make it by showing a handful of shots you got lucky with as typical results that things go wrong and go wrong in a hurry.


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## ChasK (Jan 25, 2010)

manicmike said:


> The point is you're a beginner and you're opening a photography business. You should be knowledgeable about your product before you sell it in any business.



Amen!


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## ChasK (Jan 25, 2010)

Nina,  You asked for advice, I took the time to look at your site, read your customer feed back (funny they were all posted the same day), prices (ok $65 each, your still working below your cost), look at your portfolio, and evaluate your question and give an honest reply.   Granted I may have been harsh, but your arrogance toward my craft is really insulting.  To think all you need is a little bit of practice taking snapshots is lunacy.  You really should learn the craft before you hang up your shingle.  Having a lot of equipment is not the mark of a really good photographer.  And the plural form of lens is lenses.  The really sad part is you don't even realize the absurdity of what your attempting to do.  I wish you luck!


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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

I feel bad... altough we all know that Nina does have a lot to learn before jumping in we can at least try to answer her questions and lead her in the right direction.  I have some free time this morning and will try to explain some things (because its good review for me if I can successfully explain it to someone else..lol!)... hopefully I don't screw my terms up



NinaRoxanne said:


> What would be the best lens to take newborn photos?



that would depend on your lighting, amount of space, and camera.  newborns are pretty static, so you don't really need to worry about how fast your lens is at focusing.  Maybe a 50mm or 85mm prime.. that is what a lot of photographers use in a home studio.  Any standard to telephoto lens with a large aperture will be suitable for portraits.



NinaRoxanne said:


> I'm not sure where to set the lights, or what setting to have my camera on! The photos come out better to me when the flash of my camera is off. I can set my flash on the lowest and it still comes out TOO much.



you should check out the strobist blog for lighting tutorial: Strobist: Lighting 101  Sounds like you are using strobe and you have some continuous lights so the site will help you understand the concepts of the light you are using.

Some other sites worth checking out that have been helpful to me as far as positioning.. but like I said... learning where you put your lights before you learn the concept of your lighting will be fruitless: Portrait Lighting
Foundations of Lighting Placement

As far as camera settings, I mention that a little bit down below but knowing the basic exposure triangle but here is a cheat sheet i found:  http://glark.org/media/exposure-cheat-sheet.pdf  If you're still unsure you can just put it in auto but you're so limited when you do that... so first things first... learn about exposure.



NinaRoxanne said:


> I'm trying to do infant/toddler photos the most and we all know they move TONS! So I need my flash right!?



Flash helps illuminate pictures by freezing action in an insanely small instant of time.  You don't need a flash in order to take pictures of toddlers because they are moving... you will need a flash (or more light) if your current available light is not enough to get clear pictures... your first thought is that ok, I have to increase my shutter speed to take a quick shot... (fast shutter= less light into the camera) but you also need a large aperture because you want a nice depth of field in your portrait (large aperture needs more light in the camera).  In order to achieve both of these settings successfully, you need enough light penetrating the lens so you dont have to have an open shutter so long that it will cause blur and so you can shoot with your lens wide open. You could theoretically boost your ISO up, but it will cause grain that isn't preferrable in portraits... so the lowest ISO you can use that gives a correct exposure is ideal.  If you don't have quite enough light, thats where a tripod comes in handy to eliminate camera shake.  I don't know what your available light is, so I cant tell you if you need a flash in order to take pictures of moving toddlers.  You as the photographer need to evaluate your setting and make that determination.  If you are referring to your built-in camera flash and not a flash that you can bounce, i'd probably never ever use that thing for portraits as it will give you a hard, unpleasant light... unless you could diffuse it someway but still, I've always considered the popup flash is in portrait photography is a nogo.



NinaRoxanne said:


> Help! Where do I put my lights? What do i put my camera on?  I want clear photos just like that ones i get from outside!



You can get clear photos inside, but don't expect them to look like the ones outside... the sun is your main light and you use artificial fill... when you move indoors you have to artificially produce a main light and your fill lights, so you're going to get a different look (hence, why some prefer studio settings and some prefer on-location).    You need to study up on lighting in general and then after you know what you have, then you can make a determination on where to place the lights... and that is achieved by practice practice practice.  As for your camera, if you can get a clear shot without a tripod, go handheld... if not, use a tripod.  I'd say though, if you have enough light I would't be concerned with fast moving toddlers... i'm assuming you're working with a backdrop setup so your space will be limited 



NinaRoxanne said:


> Also.. whats a must lens?
> I have a D60 & D40x


I mentioned the two primes above, but you mentioned you had like 10 lenses... what are you choosing from and we can help narrow your choices for what would be suitable.  

Whew!!  its a novel but it was good review for me... lol!


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## Craig G (Jan 25, 2010)




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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

NinaRoxanne said:


> mom2eight said:
> 
> 
> > Nina yes there is an ignore!  Hey I would like to know more about the Art Institute I looked into them but never went forward.  My DH deployed today so that will give me somthing to do to pass the time.
> ...



this site sucks... coast guard spouses are ineligible... BOOOOO!!!! layball:


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 25, 2010)

jackieclayton said:


> I feel bad... altough we all know that Nina does have a lot to learn before jumping in we can at least try to answer her questions and lead her in the right direction. I have some free time this morning and will try to explain some things (because its good review for me if I can successfully explain it to someone else..lol!)... hopefully I don't screw my terms up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for taking the time to answer OP's specific questions, that is all well and good, but when you actually read the individual questions asked, how much does it help her to continue to let her believe that she is anywhere near being close to being qualified to portray herself as a professional photographer, and to charge money for the (snapshot) work we know will be a result, given the technical level (preschool) of the questions that are being asked that indicate she has little to no knowledge of what she is doing even as a beginner, much less a pro.

What about classes, internships, don't believe her to have done much at all (if any) in terms of reading any books, instruction manuals or guides.

Get a body, 10 lenses you don't have a clue as to what to do with them, start asking questione on TPF and put your shingle out...

I can't really envision 10 different lenses one would even have for a D40X/D60 unless someone just went out and ordered all of them.

OP might be too arrogant to understand, and all she wanted us to say was what what she wanted to hear, but we are just enabling her if someone does not tell her the truth.

And since when is telling the real truth being rude, just because OP will not accept it?

But, throughout this entire thead, with every post made by OP, this whole thread becomes more and more absurd.


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## manicmike (Jan 25, 2010)

^No one in this thread was rude until the OP responded back with her arrogant comments. I stand by what I said earlier that anyone owning a business should know their product before selling it.

There is also this thing called google that works pretty well for finding answers.


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## Crissybobissy (Jan 25, 2010)

I just wanted to post that I agree with every single poster before me to some extent, even yourself. 

You did not call yourself a professional, posted in the beginner forum and while it may be slightly misleading to someone to see you promoting yourself through your site and charging a fee it falls on them to actually research the photographer before making a decision. If they like the quality of your photo's and the price attached to them then that's awesome. You'll gain some experience and hopefully they can pay a small fee for some portraits that they themselves couldn't take.

Having said that, for portrait work I think you should probably experiment with a 50mm f/1.8 or a 50mm f/1.4 lens. The 1.8 will give a shaper focus with better bokeh once you get the shot adjusted but the 1.4 is slightly easier to use.

These guys on here aren't giving you a hard time, if anything they are doing you a favor. Nobody just falls into a photography career. Reading all the books written _*can* _give you the knowledge you need to take stunning pictures, but until you actually have the experience to go with it then well... you're just a very informed gal with a camer KWIM?


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## jackieclayton (Jan 25, 2010)

PatrickHMS said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer OP's specific questions, that is all well and good, but when you actually read the individual questions asked, how much does it help her to continue to let her believe that she is anywhere near being close to being qualified to portray herself as a professional photographer, and to charge money for the (snapshot) work we know will be a result, given the technical level (preschool) of the questions that are being asked that indicate she has little to no knowledge of what she is doing even as a beginner, much less a pro.
> 
> What about classes, internships, don't believe her to have done much at all (if any) in terms of reading any books, instruction manuals or guides.
> 
> ...



ya i'm not saying anyone on here was being rude to her... i think everyone spoke stone cold truth, those basic questions she asked should not be asked by someone who is accepting money for their work... period.  i just felt bad that she had questions in her first post that werent answered.  I'd like her to come back to the forum when she needs advice and feedback and know that they will be answered...and hopefully she won't take offense when we answer truthfully, because ya, her response to our feedback was something less than grateful which is somewhat offensive to those of us who take the time out to read her post and respond to it when others would be much more appreciative.   but I was thinking maybe she got mad because we didn't help answer her questions to begin with.... i dunno... or maybe I just care too much....either way...  hopefully i didnt waste my time and i was able to lead her in some sort of direction.  if this is truly her life passion as she says on her bio on her website then she'll want to take the time and learn a thing or two about it.  If not... well, i hate to say it but she's embarrassing herself.  ugh... I've spent way too much time on this thread... good luck with your endeavors OP... :salute:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jan 25, 2010)

jackieclayton said:


> ... or maybe I just care too much....


Stop caring so much.
Just roll your eyes.

:roll:


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## Joves (Jan 26, 2010)

Crissybobissy said:


> These guys on here aren't giving you a hard time, if anything they are doing you a favor. Nobody just falls into a photography career. Reading all the books written _*can* _give you the knowledge you need to take stunning pictures, but until you actually have the experience to go with it then well... you're just a very informed gal with a camer KWIM?


 Thank-you.
You really want to know which lens is best experiment with each lens. If you have to go by one of those life size baby dolls set up as if you are shooting a session lighting and, all. Then later review your shots and, see what you got. All you have to do to see the settings is Right Click, Properties and Show Details. Back in the good old film days you used to have to keep a notebook and, either develope your film or, wait to get it back. This is how you learn. Now if you want to see this as negative then that is fine but, it is what most of us old timers did. 
 Also saying you are new to photography and having 10 lenses and, asking which one to use sound as if you havent even put in the effort to find out the answer for yourself as, asking wether you need lighting. If you were asking this as say for just shooting your own kids then I bet the responses would have been way different. But since you said you were going into business and, wanting all the answers you got what you didnt want. And also this forum has been tame, some of the other forums I go to would have made this look like a tea party.


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## PatrickHMS (Jan 26, 2010)

If I had a lens that I wanted to know what it did, I would probably think of taking such lens out and shooting with it to learn what it can do.  That's even easier to do in a digital world than it ever was with film.

Imagine, doing research and learning on my own,

silly me....


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## mostly sunny (Jan 27, 2010)

pcacj said:


> I am also new and I can relate to the OPs feelings.  How can a newbie feel comfortable posting openly if they think they are going to be slammed by the old timers?  If words were chosen as carefully as photographs were taken by some of the responders, she would welcome your feedback more readily.  It seems that because this is digital and not face-to-face, some responders choose to respond with a negative disposition (even rude) rather than a positive.  Almost anything can be said in a positive manner.  I am sure you do not talk that way to people in your daily business practices.



This is why I am scared to post my pictures.  They all make fun of my pictures.  (With the exception of one or two of you.. you know who you are.)


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## mom2eight (Jan 27, 2010)

It does make it scary for us new folks.  Not because of the CC, but because some are just plain rude.


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## WILCOX2005 (Jan 27, 2010)

I am new and have had my Sony a200 for nearly a year now and have had some many people tell me that I should start up my own business but in my own heart I know that I am no where near ready for that.  I have had different point and shoot cameras and this is my first dslr.  I have started taking classes online as a starter and plan on taking a real class.  I have read through all the comments and honestly nothing really seems all that harsh or rude I had sat in a class where a teacher was far more harsh toward the students and what they had done he called 90% of them snapshots not Photographs.  If you want harsh go to a class and see what a teaches has to say about the work there is no hand holding there.  If you ask for advice and CC then you have to be ready for what people have to say no matter what it is these guys don't know you and they have their own standards which are not your.  The pros hold nothing back and even though I may not post much I have learned a great deal from them and will have my own issues that I will seek their help with. Take the their words and help and use it.


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