# Confused about custom white balance



## Quovadis

Hey guys,
I have finally ordered 4 strobe lights (250 watts each) and softboxes which will replace my current cfl bulb set up.
As many of you already know, I photograph highly reflective leather and canvas bags, and to give you some background, it has been a daunting task doing this with cfl bulbs, because of reflections.

Here is my question, and what I am totally confused about.
To create a custom white balance with my Nikon using continuous light, it's quite easy, I simply aim the camera where the white area is, or at a subject that is not placed there yet. I simply go into the Nikon menu, select white balance and measure it. The camera asks me to take a photo and the white balance of that particular cfl set up is recorded. However there is always continuous light there, so a white balance can be recorded. 

How do I do this with strobes? Keep in mind when i receive the strobes I will have no clue how to adjust the power output the very first times I use the strobes, I will have to do some trial and error.
 How do I measure the white balance? I have read on the internet I should use a grey card? But how to measure it if my lights are off? When i ask my nikon camera to measure white balance, will this trigger the strobes? 
Why do some people want to use a grey card? Yet the Nikon instructions tell me to aim at a white area?
Could someone explain how to calibrate a white balance the very first time using strobes?

Yet another guy on the internet says you can take a picture and calibrate the white balance in the raw file, then upload the picture back into the camera? How is this possible? I'm so confused it's unreal.


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## Quovadis

This is what a cfl reflection nightmare looks like!!


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## tirediron

Shoot a white balance target under the same lighting as you will shoot the subject and and adjust in post.  If you have good quality strobes, then their colour temperature will remain constant irrespective of power or # of flashes and this won't be required after the first time.  I use the X-Rite Colour Checker Passport.  A gray card is a form of WB target; you shoot it in the scene, import the RAW file into Lightroom and click on the target with the WB tool; presto, instant correct colour temperature.  I almost never bother with setting a custom WB any more; it's easier to do it in post.

The strobes will ONLY be triggered (you did order some form of trigger, didn't you?) when you push the shutter release button, the test button on the trigger, or the test button the strobe.  

Bear in mind that reflections have NOTHING to do with your WB and you will have the same problems with strobes unless you position them correctly.  Remember that angle of incidence equals angle of reflection; in others words:  If your light is aimed at the subject at an angle of 45 degrees, than the reflection will appear at an angle of 45 degrees.  Controlling excessive specularity as seen in your example usually requires a combination of several factors:  Change of light angle with respect to the subject; change of distance between light and subject (as long as power is lowered appropriately, then the closer the light, the softer and less specular it will be), adding extra diffusion and/or polarization.


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## KmH

Specular bright spots can also be controlled with black flats and scrims.
A product photography lighting bible so good its now in its 5th edition:
Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting


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## Quovadis

Yes I have bought a trigger for each strobe, I do not trust the slave function.
My biggest fear with strobes is not being able to see reflections in the viewfinder before they happen. How can i control what I cannot see?
With cfl's at least i can see the little buggers, and move my camera and lights. Sometimes, it takes me 20 minutes before a shot to move everything around, until i can find a spot of "least reflection".
However with so many cfl bulbs 26 bulbs x 85 watts, there will always be reflections.
It is unclear to me how much distance i need between the subject and the strobes, I am hoping to bounce the strobes off the ceiling instead of having to point them at the subject. 
The strobes will be set up Monday, and at the moment I am very apprehensive. I do not know why, but I feel strobes will give me even more reflections. Each strobe will be in a softbox with dual diffusion layers.
As for the white balance, you are right, who cares...I change everything around a first time in the raw editor, then in photo shop i use selective color. I have tons of custom actions to increase and decrease color, levels, sharpness etc..
For reflections I use the dodge tool, etc..
Not very satisfying though knowing each picture sucks before post.


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## Quovadis

KmH said:


> Specular bright spots can also be controlled with black flats and scrims.
> A product photography lighting bible so good its now in its 5th edition:
> Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting



I read it, but do better with visual videos than I do books. If the author were really smart, he would make a video of each example.


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## table1349

Yep then it would be a $400.00 book instead of a $40.00 book.


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## astroNikon

gryphonslair99 said:


> Yep then it would be a $400.00 book instead of a $40.00 book.


When I went through the book I did quick setup shots to experiment with the concepts.
You learn a lot more that way than just reading, at least for me.


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## Designer

Quovadis said:


> Yes I have bought a trigger for each strobe, I do not trust the slave function.
> My biggest fear with strobes is not being able to see reflections in the viewfinder before they happen. How can i control what I cannot see?


It's o.k., you can trust the slave function.  Just don't cover any of the sensors.

Do your strobes not have modeling lights built into them?  These modeling lights should be turned on when you are using your strobes.  That is why they're there.


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## Quovadis

One thing that I feel very apprehensive right now is the following. In fact, i cannot even imagine a solution to the problem.

With continuous light, you can always see reflections, and can move the camera right and left up and down. I can even angle the bag in a different direction. All of this can be done in "real time" before taking a shot. 
What you see before the shot is what you get once the shot is taken. In other words i can see the reflections beforehand, and judge whether they are acceptable or not. I can even hold a piece of paper near the light box to minimize or block that particular reflection.

With strobes how is this possible? I have to position a strobe to an area where i "think" there will be no reflection? Then take a shot? It's like being blind.

I then take a blind shot? See it's all wrong...then what? Move my strobes a little blindly a second time?


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Specular bright spots can also be controlled with black flats and scrims.
> A product photography lighting bible so good its now in its 5th edition:
> Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read it, but do better with visual videos than I do books. If the author were really smart, he would make a video of each example.
Click to expand...

The authors ARE really smart, that's why they wrote that book that you can take anywhere you go as a reference and why the book has been around more than 20 years and is now in, what, it's fifth printing?  You're absolutely right, you're not going to see the reflections until you've taken the shot, but, with a little effort and practice you will get the hang of it. 

I don't mean to sound condescending or rude, but you seem, like a lot of people to suffer from the misconception that this is easy.  It's not difficult, and it's not rocket surgery, BUT... it does take a bit of skill and a LOT of practice.  If I were lighting that bag I could see it easily taking me a full morning to get things exactly the way I wanted them.  Now, that said, once you have that set-up, it's really not going to need more than very minor tweaks for most other bags. 

As I said to another poster in a very similar situation, unless you actually devote some time to practicing, then this is never going to work. Once you get your strobes, clear your calendar for a week.  Grab one of your bags, doesn't matter which one really, but I'd go for one that you think will be a challenge.  Set up your strobes, open up LSM and put it on a table, and start practicing.  Your first few hundred (or maybe even thousand) shots will probably be utter crap, but eventually, you will get the hang of it.  If you remember nothing else, remember:  Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection and the closer the light, the softer the light.


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## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Specular bright spots can also be controlled with black flats and scrims.
> A product photography lighting bible so good its now in its 5th edition:
> Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read it, but do better with visual videos than I do books. If the author were really smart, he would make a video of each example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The authors ARE really smart, that's why they wrote that book that you can take anywhere you go as a reference and why the book has been around more than 20 years and is now in, what, it's fifth printing?  You're absolutely right, you're not going to see the reflections until you've taken the shot, but, with a little effort and practice you will get the hang of it.
> 
> I don't mean to sound condescending or rude, but you seem, like a lot of people to suffer from the misconception that this is easy.  It's not difficult, and it's not rocket surgery, BUT... it does take a bit of skill and a LOT of practice.  If I were lighting that bag I could see it easily taking me a full morning to get things exactly the way I wanted them.  Now, that said, once you have that set-up, it's really not going to need more than very minor tweaks for most other bags.
> 
> As I said to another poster in a very similar situation, unless you actually devote some time to practicing, then this is never going to work. Once you get your strobes, clear your calendar for a week.  Grab one of your bags, doesn't matter which one really, but I'd go for one that you think will be a challenge.  Set up your strobes, open up LSM and put it on a table, and start practicing.  Your first few hundred (or maybe even thousand) shots will probably be utter crap, but eventually, you will get the hang of it.  If you remember nothing else, remember:  Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection and the closer the light, the softer the light.
Click to expand...


EASY?????????????? it's by far the hardest thing I have ever tried. This is what I do every day from dusk to dawn. Been doing it for a year now. At first I did not really care about picture quality and reflections, now I do.


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> One thing that I feel very apprehensive right now is the following. In fact, i cannot even imagine a solution to the problem.
> 
> With continuous light, you can always see reflections, and can move the camera right and left up and down. I can even angle the bag in a different direction. All of this can be done in "real time" before taking a shot.
> What you see before the shot is what you get once the shot is taken. In other words i can see the reflections beforehand, and judge whether they are acceptable or not. I can even hold a piece of paper near the light box to minimize or block that particular reflection.
> 
> With strobes how is this possible? I have to position a strobe to an area where i "think" there will be no reflection? Then take a shot? It's like being blind.
> 
> I then take a blind shot? See it's all wrong...then what? Move my strobes a little blindly a second time?


This is where the practice comes in.  The learning...  you need to understand that you're trying learn in a few hours or days what some professionals have worked on for years.  Lighting is an art unto itself.  The process is this:  Look at the product, decide how you want to light it.  Move in your key light, make sure you don't have an angle issue, do a test, adjust as necessary.  Move in your fill, repeat.  Etc, etc...


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## Quovadis

Canvas bags are easy, I can do them blindfolded, they do not reflect. Bags like this are my nightmare


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> EASY?????????????? it's by far the hardest thing I have ever tried. This is what I do every day from dusk to dawn. Been doing it for a year now. At first I did not really care about picture quality and reflections, now I do.


I say easy because you seem frustrated that you're not knocking this out of the park on your first go.  I've been doing this long enough now that when I set up my lights, they're generally pretty darn close right off the bat, but MAYBE one time in a hundred if I'm really lucky do I not have to adjust anything.  The simple fact is, it takes time.  Once you get a set-up that works, tweaking for each bag should take no more than 10-15 minutes.


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> Canvas bags are easy, I can do them blindfolded, they do not reflect. Bags like this are my nightmare


Like I said, it will take a little time to get it right.  If you called me in to do this, I would tell you that it would take at least four hours before the first bag was done.  It might take less, but I would plan four hours.

Out of curiosity, how far away were your lights?


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## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Canvas bags are easy, I can do them blindfolded, they do not reflect. Bags like this are my nightmare
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, it will take a little time to get it right.  If you called me in to do this, I would tell you that it would take at least four hours before the first bag was done.  It might take less, but I would plan four hours.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how far away were your lights?
Click to expand...


about 4 feet. And only about half of them were turned on. Hang on let me take a pic of my "most recent set up" I have changed this set up many times.


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## Quovadis

Here is current set up.
Softboxes 1 and 2 are pointed towards the white background, they contain 8 x 85watt bulbs (four each). They are both behind the subject.
Softboxes 3 and 4 contain seven x 85watts each. These softboxes have toggle switches, so i can turn bulbs on or off. These softboxes are normally on the side of the subject in front. I move these softboxes closer or farther away from the subject depending on the shot.
Softbox 5 contains 4 x 85watt bulbs and is directly above the subject. Most of the time this softbox is not active, because it causes reflections from above.

The subject is about 3 feet before the white backdrop. The white backdrop is matte PVC. All softboxes have at least 2 layers of diffusion inside.


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## Quovadis

Oh,
the boom you see in the middle has a fishing line attached, and keeps the bags upright


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## Quovadis

come Monday, everything you see here will be replaced by 4 strobes inside soft boxes. The question is? Where do i position strobes? what distance? do I aim them at the bag? Or at the ceiling?
The only way I will be able to see reflections before taking a shot is with the modelling lights.
I forgot I had modeling lights at least...


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## tirediron

Okay, so looking at your set-up, you have five lights.  What is the function of each?


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## Quovadis

To light the backdrop, and to light the subject...sorry do not understand your question.


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## table1349

Quovadis said:


> To light the backdrop, and to light the subject...sorry do not understand your question.


I believe that explains a lot.  What are you using for key lighting, fill lighting, background/set lighting?   Are you including a coffin light in the setup?  If so do you have a butterfly with it? 

How many of each, where are they placed etc.


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## Quovadis

Let me re-phrase.
I learnt that illuminating the backdrop makes it whiter. So i use light back there. 
The top light is supposed to bring more texture to the bag. I have not noticed this. All it does for me is blows the bag handles out and gives them reflections.
The left and right side softboxes illuminate both sides of the bag equally, as well as the front of the bag.
Am i missing something?


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## table1349

So what are your lighting ratios between the front lighting and top light?  What are your distances from product to light?  What diffusion materials are you using?  What are you angles of light to the products?  All of this matters.


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## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> To light the backdrop, and to light the subject...sorry do not understand your question.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that explains a lot.  What are you using for key lighting, fill lighting, background/set lighting?   Are you including a coffin light in the setup?  If so do you have a butterfly with it?
> 
> How many of each, where are they placed etc.
Click to expand...


Look at the pictures they show each light and the position of each light. Wtf is a coffin light? If you are trying to be funny or sarcastic, please go somewhere else, this is difficult enough without clown lights in the room.


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> To light the backdrop, and to light the subject...sorry do not understand your question.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that explains a lot.  What are you using for key lighting, fill lighting, background/set lighting?   Are you including a coffin light in the setup?  If so do you have a butterfly with it?
> 
> How many of each, where are they placed etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look at the pictures they show each light and the position of each light. Wtf is a coffin light? If you are trying to be funny or sarcastic, please go somewhere else, this is difficult enough without clown lights in the room.
Click to expand...

Whoooaaaaaaaaa buckaroo!!!  Steady on.  Gryph is someone who knows of what he speaks and is trying to help you.  You might want to read this and get familiar with basic lighting terms.


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## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> So what are your lighting ratios between the front lighting and top light?  What are your distances from product to light?  What diffusion materials are you using?  What are you angles of light to the products?  All of this matters.



As for diffusion, it's a white sateen textile placed inside the soft boxes. Angles I will have to measure exactly. The lights on the backdrop are bright, the others I can tone down.


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## Quovadis

oops !!!!
*Coffin Light*
A rectangular Soft Light, often with an adjustable black skirt used to control Spill. Like the Chicken Coop and Space Light, it is hung over the set.

Terribly sorry, I thought you were taking the piss! I still have to google the butterfly thing.

I have no coffin lights...no black whatsoever...only white diffusion.


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## table1349

*Coffin Light*
A rectangular Soft Light, often with an adjustable black skirt used to control Spill.

Move you lights closer to the subject, that will soften the lighting.  You will need to dial the power down.  The angle of the lights determines the angle of reflection.  Basic geometry.   Lower the power of the overhead light so it adds a touch of fill.  Understanding lighting ratios is just as important in product photography as in portrait work.

This might help: Glossary of Lighting Terms

A butterfly is another diffuser panel usually not attached to the light.  Like a hung scrim.  Great for strobes or sun.


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## tirediron

Now, to get back to the issue at hand:  Each light in a setup serves a specific purpose.  Start with your key or main light.  That is the light which will provide the bulk of the illumination for the set and the one on which the exposure is based. 
One thing we can't tell is how far your product is from the background; you want as much separation as possible, and you should probably raise the height of the seamless as well.


Let's start with the key.  Use #4 (I am going to pretend that these are your new strobes), and position it so that it is about 30 degrees camera right and angled about 45 degrees down.  Place it so that the closest point of the front is no more than 2' from the product and adjust for f8.  Bring in #3 just a little bit off-axis camera left (maybe 10 degrees) and angled only slightly down off of the vertical.  Get this as close as you can as well; ideally within 2' and set for f5.6.  Position 1 and 2 so that they cross light the background (ie the light on the right side of the table illuminates the left side of the set) and so that they are roughly even with the product.  Set them to f8.

You're now in the ballpark... roughly.  Shoot a test shot and tweak the positions of the lights slightly as necessary to eliminate any excess specularity.  Using the stock of white & black card to flag & reflect, tweak small areas until you have it dialed in.  For products that are very highly polished you may need to employ cross-polarization (a cut of polarizing film on the light and a CPOL on the lens).


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## Quovadis

Thank you both ...now I can start working on something tangible.
I was making the first fundamental mistake of backing my lights further back trying not to get reflections. I understand I need to move them closer. I will also raise the backdrop. The subject, was too close to the background, yet another mistake.
Another mistake is to try and use brute force and have all lights as fill.
I do not understand how to set a light at f8? You mean using a light meter? I do not have one. The strobes I am about to receive only have a rotary knob on the back to go from full power down to less power.


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> Thank you both ...now I can start working on something tangible.
> I was making the first fundamental mistake of backing my lights further back trying not to get reflections. I understand I need to move them closer. I will also raise the backdrop. The subject, was too close to the background, yet another mistake.
> Another mistake is to try and use brute force and have all lights as fill.
> I do not understand how to set a light at f8? You mean using a light meter? I do not have one. The strobes I am about to receive only have a rotary knob on the back to go from full power down to less power.


You really should have a flash meter for this; it will make your life much, much easier!  Failing that, you can use the guide number to do a rough calculation and then fine tune using the rear LCD, or just take a wild-ass guess, and then adjust the power, review, adjust, etc....


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## table1349

Excellent meter at a decent price. L358

This is what I use.  There are many others of varying prices.  Sekonic has a good number of tutorials on meter usage.


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## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> Excellent meter at a decent price. L358
> 
> This is what I use.  There are many others of varying prices.  Sekonic has a good number of tutorials on meter usage.


I love my Minolta Flash V!


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## Quovadis

Gosh
I know nothing about light meters, if my understanding is correct, I measure ambient light where the subject is, and the light meter will tell me an f aperture number to use on my camera? I do not think my strobes will have an LCD screen. They are basic strobes, with a knob.
Here is the model, I ordered four pieces with light box.
https://www.amazon.com/NEEWER-Studi...625371&sr=8-1&keywords=neewer+250+watt+strobe


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## Quovadis

let's say my light meter says f8, then what? The knob does not have F values just clockwise and anti clockwise rotation.


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## tirediron

You don't care about ambient; this will be 100% flash exposure, which is why you need a flash meter, NOT just a regular light meter.  Set up your strobe, place the meter where the product is, trigger the strobe, and look at the meter; it will give you an aperture reading.  Adjust the output of the strobe up or down until you achieve the desired reading.


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## unpopular

Meh. Just get a polarizer.


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## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> let's say my light meter says f8, then what? The knob does not have F values just clockwise and anti clockwise rotation.


If let's say you trigger the strobe and your meter shows f11, but you want f8, simply reduce the output of the strobe by turning the dial (usually counter-clockwise).  Some strobes are marked in stops and fractional stops, others it's just a guess.  By the time you've had them a day, you will know instinctively how much to turn the dial to achieve how much increase or decrease.


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## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> You don't care about ambient; this will be 100% flash exposure, which is why you need a flash meter, NOT just a regular light meter.  Set up your strobe, place the meter where the product is, trigger the strobe, and look at the meter; it will give you an aperture reading.  Adjust the output of the strobe up or down until you achieve the desired reading.



Ah!! ok so this is a specific flash meter.
Ok let me take this step by step :

1. Approach the subject with a hand held light meter, and hold the meter right close to the subject.
2. Trigger the strobes? How? My camera has to trigger the strobes wirelessly ? Right? My camera is not here where the subject is.
3. Assume the strobes are triggered and the flash meter says f8 for example.
 Then what? How do i tell the strobes I need f8?
I only have full power or reduced power on the strobes...how do I set f8? 

Why do they measure strobe light intensity with aperture numbers? can't they just say 1= dim and 10= strong? It's really confusing..not logical


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## Quovadis

yes but the meter reads the intensity of the flash? How does the meter know what is needed?
Let's say I dim my strobes to the lowest possible point with the rotary knob. I then take a reading with the flash meter, the meter will simply give me an F number. 
Let's say i take another reading with the knob on the strobes turned on maximum, the flash meter will give me another f number?
So i end up with two F****numbers? how do i use these in practice?


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## tirediron

It's actually very logical because f8 is an absolute value and is f8 is f8 is f8 no matter what camera you're using.  "Dim" or "Bright" are relative terms and will not tell you what you need to know.

Okay... baby steps.

First decide what aperture you want.  This will be determined by the depth of field necessary to have the amount of the scene in sharp focus that you want in sharp focus.  The DoF is determined by the focal length of the lens, the aperture and the distance from the subject.  You know the focal length and distance because you've figured out where you need the camera to frame the image the way you want.  Now, take those two parameters and consult your DoF table of smartphone "app".  It will tell you what aperture you need.  For the sake of example, you need f8.

Now, set up your strobes the way you want, and make a WAG about the power settings; failing all else, go for the middle on all of them to start.  Now, take the trigger off of your camera and place the meter against the subject, and using the test button on the trigger, trip the strobe FOR YOU KEY LIGHT ONLY (turn the others off for now).  Let's say that the meter now shows f11.  Reduce the strobe output power by a bit and test again, repeat until you have f8.

Next turn off the key light and turn on the fill light.  You've decided that you want 1 stop of dynamic range between highlights and shadows in the shot, so that means you will need to set your strobe to f11.  Repeat the 'test-adjust-test-adjust' process with your fill until you get f11. 

Once the fill is done, turn it off and turn on both background lights and meter the background AT THE BACKGROUND; you want f8 (same as your key) or slightly above, say f8 +1/3; just enough to render the background pure white.  Once you've done that, turn on all the lights, place your trigger back on the camera's hot shoe and shoot the scene with the camera at f8 and maximum sync speed (usually 1/200 - /250) and look at the image you get.  Start adding flags and reflectors as necessary to increase or decrease light to a specific area.


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## Quovadis

OK ..let me rephrase my thinking :
We have 3 variables a camera which needs to shoot bags at f11. 
A flash meter which records the intensity of a given light or flash (f numbers),
 and 4 strobe lights with an adjustment knob.
The flash meter can only record a flash if the strobes are triggered. Once the strobes are triggered it will give me an F number.
Let's assume it reads f14.
I need f11 because i'm shooting at f11. 
We have a discrepancy of 3. So the lights have to be increased or dimmed by 3? Not sure. I think dimmed.
So i have to dim the all 4 strobes by three points/stops/intensity ?
Is this correct?


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## table1349

Quovadis said:


> Gosh
> I know nothing about light meters, if my understanding is correct, I measure ambient light where the subject is, and the light meter will tell me an f aperture number to use on my camera? I do not think my strobes will have an LCD screen. They are basic strobes, with a knob.
> Here is the model, I ordered four pieces with light box.
> https://www.amazon.com/NEEWER-Studi...625371&sr=8-1&keywords=neewer+250+watt+strobe


How to Use a Hand Held Light Meter :: Digital Photo Secrets

Learn how to use a light meter from top professional photographers


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## SCraig

> 3. Assume the strobes are triggered and the flash meter says f8 for example.
> Then what? How do i tell the strobes I need f8?
> I only have full power or reduced power on the strobes...how do I set f8?


You set the CAMERA to f/8.


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## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> It's actually very logical because f8 is an absolute value and is f8 is f8 is f8 no matter what camera you're using.  "Dim" or "Bright" are relative terms and will not tell you what you need to know.
> 
> Okay... baby steps.
> 
> First decide what aperture you want.  This will be determined by the depth of field necessary to have the amount of the scene in sharp focus that you want in sharp focus.  The DoF is determined by the focal length of the lens, the aperture and the distance from the subject.  You know the focal length and distance because you've figured out where you need the camera to frame the image the way you want.  Now, take those two parameters and consult your DoF table of smartphone "app".  It will tell you what aperture you need.  For the sake of example, you need f8.
> 
> Now, set up your strobes the way you want, and make a WAG about the power settings; failing all else, go for the middle on all of them to start.  Now, take the trigger off of your camera and place the meter against the subject, and using the test button on the trigger, trip the strobe FOR YOU KEY LIGHT ONLY (turn the others off for now).  Let's say that the meter now shows f11.  Reduce the strobe output power by a bit and test again, repeat until you have f8.
> 
> Next turn off the key light and turn on the fill light.  You've decided that you want 1 stop of dynamic range between highlights and shadows in the shot, so that means you will need to set your strobe to f11.  Repeat the 'test-adjust-test-adjust' process with your fill until you get f11.
> 
> Once the fill is done, turn it off and turn on both background lights and meter the background AT THE BACKGROUND; you want f8 (same as your key) or slightly above, say f8 +1/3; just enough to render the background pure white.  Once you've done that, turn on all the lights, place your trigger back on the camera's hot shoe and shoot the scene with the camera at f8 and maximum sync speed (usually 1/200 - /250) and look at the image you get.  Start adding flags and reflectors as necessary to increase or decrease light to a specific area.



THANK YOU!! got it!!!


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> ...Let's assume it reads f14.
> I need f11 because i'm shooting at f11.
> We have a discrepancy of 3. So the lights have to be increased or dimmed by 3? Not sure. I think dimmed.
> So i have to dim the all 4 strobes by three points/stops/intensity ?
> Is this correct?


No... you have a discrepancy of 2/3.  Full f-stops:  2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 32.  Don't worry about WHY the numbers are the numbers they, just accept them.


----------



## Quovadis

ummm...to make matters worse I will not be able to use the exposure meter on the camera, that I have been using to date with continuous lightning.
So basically key light at f11
Fill light at f14
Background lights at f11.

So the fill light has to be slightly less bright than the other 3 lights?


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> ...So the fill light has to be slightly less bright than the other 3 lights?


Generally, BUT... you may not want any shadows; you may want an even or high-key look, in which case all lights will be the same.  It really depends on what you want for your end result.  Bear in mind that this is a very simplified approach.  Don't think that getting the first set-up down is going to be easy; it will take some time.  When you do get it nailed, diagram it, measure all of the distances and annotate with the power settings on the strobes so that the next time you need to, you can set it up in 5 minutes, do a confirmation shot and get shooting.

Remember too that you will have to move things and adjust slightly for different shapes, textures and colours.


----------



## Quovadis

Sorry but I have another stupid question.
I realize that the purpose of this exercise is to adjust the strobe light intensity with relation to the aperture number on the camera you want to use. 
Let's say the strobes are too bright (all four),
Can't you simply increase shutter speed? I mean to dim the photo?
or is this cheating?


----------



## Quovadis

Here are the instructions on that website, it clearly assumes the source of light is continuous :

*Using a Hand-held Meter*
First, let's go through the basic steps for using a handheld meter:


Set your camera to manual mode, and select your preferred ISO and Aperture.
Turn the knob around the white dome of your light meter to make it protrude.
Set the ISO on the meter to the same value you set on the camera.
Set the aperture to the value you set on the camera.
Hold the meter in front of your subject with the white dome facing the camera.
Press the measure button.
The meter will instantly read out the correct shutter speed for the shot you want. Ensure that your camera is set to manual mode or shutter priority mode and then set the shutter speed to the reading given.

You won’t have to get a new reading until the light changes, so you can keep shooting from there without worrying about your exposure. Instead, you can concentrate on composition and your subject itself.

So, what do you think? Worth trying one out?

So i have to press 2 buttons simultaneously? The one on the flash meter and the one on the wireless trigger?
Other wise the light meter will have no light to measure apart from ambient light coming from the balcony.
Is this correct?


----------



## tirediron

Shutter speed doesn't enter into the flash exposure equation (much).  Every focal plane shutter has what is called a 'sync' or 'max sync' speed.  This is the fastest speed at which both halves of the shutter are completely open at the same time.  At any speed above that* if you use a flash you will see a black bar appear on the image, which is the second shutter curtain closing.  This is usually 1/200 - 1/250.  You can use almost any speed below that, with NO affect on the image until (a) it become so slow that ambient light begins to affect the exposure or (b) it's so slow that vibration and motion affect it.  Try it... you will see NO difference in exposure shooting with flash only if you shoot at 1/60 or 1/200.

Also, don't get into the habit of thinking of the strobes as "all four".  In the examples I've used, you have four individual lights lighting in three separate ways.  The two background lights should be the same intensity and adjusted the same up or down.  The key light and fill light should be adjusted to preserve the exposure difference between them.

With respect to your 'Using a hand-held meter', that's pretty much exactly it.  The only detail relates to the button pressing.  Press the meter button and then the trip the strobes.  Flash meters all have a 'waiting' period after the measurement button is pressed, in other words they will all continue to "look" for flash (ambient light will be ignored) for anywhere from 15 to 60 seconds, so you don't have to press the buttons at exactly the same time.

*High-speed sync or HSS is an exception, but the strobes you've ordered don't support it.


----------



## tirediron

Moved thread to a more appropriate location.


----------



## Designer

Quovadis said:


> Gosh
> I know nothing about light ..


FIFY


----------



## Quovadis

Thank you for explaining that both buttons do not have to be pressed at exactly the same time. I was already getting very anxious about that.

I tried something with my cfl lights I have never ever tried before. I pointed all 4 soft boxes to the white ceiling. It was more an act of desperation than anything else.
Low and behold, this is what I got. hardly any reflections on the bag. I do notice on the left side of the bag is considerable ambient light coming from the garden, and there were green reflections from the grass, which of course will not be there tonight when i take more shots.
This shot proves, that I need to bounce light as much as possible on shiny bags, as opposed to point a light at the bag. I am surprised the picture is not dark either. 
What I just did, goes against all logic of having a key light fill light etc...they were just all randomly aimed at the ceiling. It has taught me that nothing is written in stone.
The front of the bag obviously needs more light, I have to figure out how to give it more bounced light, maybe put the softboxes as high as possible near the ceiling.


----------



## tirediron

What this proves is that you need to diffuse the light more.  All that bouncing the light does is provide additional diffusion by creating in effect, a single, large light source.  When I look at that I see shiny areas all over it, which to me, would not be acceptable. 

Bear in mind too, that the first few shots with the strobes will probably look like crap, but if you read LSM, and follow the advice yu've been given, it should come together very quickly.  The biggest issue with using this sort of lighting technique is that it's almost impossible to control  a small area using flags or scrims.


----------



## Quovadis

Which lighting technique are you speaking of? Cfl or strobes?
Do you mean a small area on the bag?
Or do you mean my photography area is small?


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> Which lighting technique are you speaking of? Cfl or strobes?
> Do you mean a small area on the bag?
> Or do you mean my photography area is small?


Bouncing all the lights off of the ceiling - you have no idea what lights are doing what and which are contributing and how much and which aren't.


----------



## Dave442

I was looking for a Distribution box after seeing a nice one at a recent concert. Anyway, one site that came up in my search just made me think of this thread and how the OP must be feeling (and for anyone not in the movie business that has sat around with friends in LA)...

What Are You, New?


----------



## Quovadis

Funny article. I guess every profession has the same technical jargon.
I have two main problems :
1. I need to perform and photograph at least 5 bags a day.
2. I am very passionate about learning photography, and need more time to understand lighting and diffusion, and experiment. This is perfectly inconsistent with having to perform.
If I had the time right now, I would join some photography course or school in a heartbeat, or go and train with a professional.
I am sure that one day it will all "click together". It's a "state of mind" that I have not yet acquired, it's more than a skill set. It's also a very creative art, in the sense that you have to visualize the whole scene before the shot.
Getting past negative emotions after repetitive bad shots is also a challenge, self-doubt, starts to crawl into the mind.


----------



## Quovadis

Few more questions :
1. With an AF lens 50mm prime, does the focus and recompose work? It has no AFS. I have been trying it but do not see the difference.
2. I often see photographers casually holding their cameras and taking portrait pictures of a person. Why do they not need a tripod? My pictures would be very blurry if i held the camera? Does experience give you a steadier hand?
3. Why do they often point the camera to the ground or downwards before taking a shot and then lift it up over the model and shoot?


----------



## Quovadis

I set up the strobes for a very first time and my picture is saturated with purple. The bag is a very light mauve color.
I tried to take white balance PRE, but the camera says it cannot measure white balance in it's current state (probably because it's too dark).
I then took a picture of the white background using strobes, and told the camera to use that picture (which was nice and bright white) as a white balance reference.
My bag is still deep purple...HELP PLEASE !!!


----------



## Dave442

Try setting a manual WB based on the color temp of the strobes.


----------



## Quovadis

I cannot
the camera says it cannot take a custom white balance, in it's current state...probably because it's too dark in the room


----------



## Quovadis

with continuous lighting you aim your camera at the lit white area or the backdrop which is white, and the camera will take a picture and record white balance. With strobes there is no light to start with ...so the camera does not want to take a custom WB.


----------



## Quovadis

Here is the picture taken with cfl light, and here is a picture taken with strobes...the colors could not be more off....what is all the purple on the white table?????


----------



## table1349

White balance card placed in front of the purse/subject.  Take the shot.  
Get your White Balance Right in Seconds Using Grey Card


----------



## Quovadis

ok im gonna use a white piece of printing paper. Hang on


----------



## table1349

NOOO.  Your eyes and brain are terrible judges of color.  White is not always white.  You need a properly calibrated target as mentioned in the article.


----------



## Quovadis

So?
I took a pic with something white in front? And now?


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> So?
> I took a pic with something white in front? And now?


And now you use that to adjust the white balance in post processing.


----------



## Quovadis

ok ...let me see if I can find a gray card in fort myers Florida?? Easier to find a pink elephant...


----------



## Quovadis

So wait? You are suggesting I import the horrible picture in photoshop and change all the colors around? It will take me ages to do...


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> ok ...let me see if I can find a gray card in fort myers Florida?? Easier to find a pink elephant...


Try harmon photo and video.


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> So wait? You are suggesting I import the horrible picture in photoshop and change all the colors around? It will take me ages to do...


Welcome to the world of photography.  Pushing the button is just the tip of the iceberg and adjusting white balance is one of the simplest post processing aspects there is.


----------



## Quovadis

nope...nothing in Fort Myers, Naples or anywhere around here.
I called Harmon and they told me to use a white card. 

The question is ? Why will my camera not allow me to take a PRE custom wb?


----------



## Quovadis

Another problem...it's dark, I can barely see the purse in the viewfinder. I have an af manual 50mm, how can I focus if i can't see?????


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> nope...nothing in Fort Myers, Naples or anywhere around here.
> I called Harmon and they told me to use a white card.
> 
> The question is ? Why will my camera not allow me to take a PRE custom wb?


Are you tripping the strobes when you press the shutter?
Read this:
http://www.dummies.com/photography/...ce-settings-on-canon-rebel-t3-series-cameras/


----------



## Dave442

You should be able to get a custom WB with the strobes as they fire when you push the shutter button. I often grab a custom WB when using bounce flash. I would just take an out-of-focus shot of the spot with no bag in it. 

You could also set the WB to 5500 °K or the daylight setting and it will probably be close, but doing a custom WB before each session would be best (or if you change the power output of the strobes).


----------



## Quovadis

Yes the strobes are working fine when i press the shutter.

LET ME DEFINE THE PROBLEM.
Before strobes I had continuous light. It was always on, the back ground was lit, and I could take a PRE custom white balance. My Nikon camera allowed me to point the camera at the lit background and it would "record" the data of the white balance.

Now if I point the camera at the background it's dark, There is a little ambient light but not much. The nikon every time I try to take a PRE white balance, the nikon refuses to do so.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> I cannot
> the camera says it cannot take a custom white balance, in it's current state...probably because it's too dark in the room


You can dial on a specific colour temperature in your camera's menu.  Consult your manual for how to do this, once you figure out how, start by setting it to 5500; and agree with Gryph, white printer paper is rarely white.


----------



## table1349

Sorry for some reason I thought you were using a t3i.  The process should still be similar.


----------



## Quovadis

Could you two please answer one question for me?
The who point of taking a picture with a gray card is to then use the gray color in the raw software with the eyedropper? right? 
I want the camera to take more or less good color pictures before I export the picture into the raw software. Forget, the raw software, light rooom or photoshop for a minute.
Pretend all we have is a cmera and strobes, a purse and white backdrop. 
I am trying to take a PRE white balance, but the camera will not allow it in these circumstances. Why would a Nikon or Canon for that matter REFUSE TO TAKE WHITE BALANCE?
I cannot get to the stage where I press the shutter button to take a picture because the camera tells me it cannot measure white balance under these conditions...what could be the cause?


----------



## Dave442

You should be able to hold the WB button until the PRE blinks, then take the picture. When you take the picture the strobes will fire and you just need to make sure your camera settings allow enough light with the strobes firing to light the scene. You also do not want any off colored objects so an out-of-focus white or neutral grey background works.  Having some shots with a grey card also lets you compare later in the computer, or if you forget to set the custom WB.


----------



## Quovadis

PRE can only blink and allow you to take a shot, IF THE CAMERA AGREES TO LET YOU....I have done it a thousand times with continuous lighting...with strobes, it's pitch black before they fire...maybe the camera does not allow you to measure WB if it's too dark before the shot?


----------



## Quovadis

ok i put the camera in FLASH mode and this is what I got...it's a little better... still do not understand why the shadow is purple


----------



## Quovadis

Also ...how in the hell do you guys focus on the subject in the dark, can i turn on some cfl lights pointed at the bags to focus? The modeling lights on the strobes are a joke. I may as well light up a match it would give me more light


----------



## SCraig

The documentation for your strobes should give the color temperature.  Otherwise, just put it in Auto White Balance and move on.  Two mouse clicks in virtually ANY editing software will set a white point and you're done.


----------



## Dave442

I can make the PRE letters blink and take the picture with the lens cap on, but that does give me a No Good and just lets me know to retry.  The same would happen if my strobes were not on, the camera would still try to make the custom setting by taking the picture.


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> PRE can only blink and allow you to take a shot, IF THE CAMERA AGREES TO LET YOU....I have done it a thousand times with continuous lighting...with strobes, it's pitch black before they fire...maybe the camera does not allow you to measure WB if it's too dark before the shot?


Are you in manual mode???


----------



## Quovadis

Do i need to be in manual mode? All i know Is i have an AF 50 mm prime no AFS.
What mode should i be in?


----------



## Quovadis

All of a sudden, with no logical explanation it allowed me to set the white balance. WOW, i was getting really anxious.
I managed to set it, and I do not know why or how come. (I still have to take pictures now to see if the set WB is good or still bad)

Now here is another question for you guys. Imagine before the strobes go off, ITS DARK ...how do you guys focus on the subject? I cant see my feet.


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> Do i need to be in manual mode? All i know Is i have an AF 50 mm prime no AFS.
> What mode should i be in?


In manual mode you control the camera.  In one of the preset modes the camera in part controls you.  In Auto mode you are the button pusher.


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> All of a sudden, with no logical explanation it allowed me to set the white balance. WOW, i was getting really anxious.
> I managed to set it, and I do not know why or how come. (I still have to take pictures now to see if the set WB is good or still bad)
> 
> Now here is another question for you guys. Imagine before the strobes go off, ITS DARK ...how do you guys focus on the subject? I cant see my feet.


Modeling lights.


----------



## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of a sudden, with no logical explanation it allowed me to set the white balance. WOW, i was getting really anxious.
> I managed to set it, and I do not know why or how come. (I still have to take pictures now to see if the set WB is good or still bad)
> 
> Now here is another question for you guys. Imagine before the strobes go off, ITS DARK ...how do you guys focus on the subject? I cant see my feet.
> 
> 
> 
> Modeling lights.
Click to expand...


 Mine are too weak.  The modeling lights on these strobes are way too weak. Am I allowed to turn on a group of cfl's focus and turn them back off? What a pain in the posterior though. 
If a group of cf'l's are on,  just to enable focus (gives me light), is it bad if they are left on when the strobes fire?
In other words is it bad to have ambient light in the room when the strobes fire?
Will it not eff up the white balance again?


----------



## Quovadis

Other points :
With cfl's I can see reflections and move my camera or move the lights out of the family. Impossible to do with strobes?

2. With strobes most of the ambient light in the room is low, so subjects look dark and horrible in the viewfinder. Do you guys not mind this?


----------



## Dave442

If the ambient light is a different color temp than the strobes then you probably want them off. You can have light in the room, just take a picture and if it is not too close to the subject then the picture will come out black and therefore will have only a slight impact on the image. You don't want to be tripping over your tripod and such. 

I usually just use a flashlight to focus in the field, but inside I have a switch near the camera to turn on lights for setting things up and that is the best time to frame and focus the shot.  

You could also tether the camera to the computer to see things as you shoot. Or have someone else import photos from one memory card while you keep shooting on another memory card.


----------



## Quovadis

let me see if i can tether the camera to an apple mini...you mean to see the shots after they are taken? WOW, this is all new science for me. The thing that scares me the most is not being able to see DIRECT REFLECTIONS in real time, so i cant move OUT OF THE FAMILY, in real time...

ARE ALL MODELING LIGHT BEAMS WEAK? OR IS IT BECAUSE I BOUGHT CHEAP STROBES? DO YOU NORMALLY SEE DIRECT REFLECTIONS WITH MODELING LIGHTS? IF SO, I WILL HAVE TO RETURN THESE CHEAP STROBES AND BUY EXPENSIVE ONES. HOW DO YOU GUYS DEAL WITH DIRECT REFLECTIONS? HOW DO YOU GUYS AVOID THEM OR MOVE OUT OF THE FAMILY OF ANGLES? I know how to do this with continuous light...but not with strobes.


----------



## table1349

You have asked dozens of questions over the last 9 pages.  Now I want to ask one.  Why are you doing this.  Is making purses your living or what?


----------



## Quovadis

yes
it unfortunately is.
Not the most glamorous of livings selling pre-owned bags, but for now I have to try my very best. I'm sure it's temporary.


----------



## Quovadis

Ok. I have figure part 1 of my question. Why was the camera refusing to take white balance. EXCUSE MY TERMINOLOGY!!
Nikons will not allow you to measure white balance if you have the viewfinder looking at the subject. In other words the subject is a white a white background. If you see the background in the view finder its no good. You have to press the live view button off, once you see the Nikon blue screen with all the other goodies, then you can proceed to measure WB


----------



## Quovadis

With CFL'S you could see direct reflections. You could walk around the purse and analyze them. You could go up a ladder to see how they  changed. You could lie on the floor and look up to the purse to see how they looked and to see if shooting from below was acceptable or not. With continuous lights, I could go half way down to my knees, and determine if that was a viable shot or not, or stand fully. Depending on what I saw, i could lower or lift my tripod to take the shot.

The modeling lights on the strobes are too weak, very hard to see any reflections. In fact the modeling lights are not even strong enough for me to look at the purse through the viewfinder and focus.

This is a real problem...i need to find a solution. Going back to cfl's is like relapsing, so that's not a solution.


----------



## Quovadis

WHITE Balance is now perfect. 
Now please give me your input as to how you guys would see direct reflections or not with your modeling lights?


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> WHITE Balance is now perfect.
> Now please give me your input as to how you guys would see direct reflections or not with your modeling lights?


This is where experience comes in.  Remember that light moves like water, and angle of incidence = angle of reflection, so:  when you position your light, first know in your mind what you want to illuminate, then imagine that the bulb is the open end of a garden hose, and visualize a spray of water coming out of the hose and hitting the purse and bouncing off at an angle equal to that where it hit.  If that bounce doesn't hit the camera lens (allowing for beam spread) then you won't have a reflection.  Remember also to bring your lights in nice and close; 2-3' is where I'd be, at most.

FWIW, that bag shot is pretty damn good.  The only issue I see is that the face of the bag is about 2/3 - 1 stop under-exposed with respect to your background, so either reduce your background lights by 2/3 - 1 stop and open your aperture, or increase your foreground lights.  

And before you ask, to figure out what 2/3 or 1 stop is, just increase or decrease exposure slowly and do test shots.  Should take all of about 1 minute to figure out.


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> WHITE Balance is now perfect.
> Now please give me your input as to how you guys would see direct reflections or not with your modeling lights?
> 
> 
> 
> This is where experience comes in.  Remember that light moves like water, and angle of incidence = angle of reflection, so:  when you position your light, first know in your mind what you want to illuminate, then imagine that the bulb is the open end of a garden hose, and visualize a spray of water coming out of the hose and hitting the purse and bouncing off at an angle equal to that where it hit.  If that bounce doesn't hit the camera lens (allowing for beam spread) then you won't have a reflection.  Remember also to bring your lights in nice and close; 2-3' is where I'd be, at most.
> 
> FWIW, that bag shot is pretty damn good.  The only issue I see is that the face of the bag is about 2/3 - 1 stop under-exposed with respect to your background, so either reduce your background lights by 2/3 - 1 stop and open your aperture, or increase your foreground lights.
> 
> And before you ask, to figure out what 2/3 or 1 stop is, just increase or decrease exposure slowly and do test shots.  Should take all of about 1 minute to figure out.
Click to expand...


WOW, you certainly explain things in an easy to understand way. You have no idea how much this is appreciated, it makes all the difference in the world. I had backed my strobes to about 5 ~6 feet away. I thought it was only with cfl's you had to be really close? As for that first shot being quite good it's because I got lucky, actually I followed your advice from the other day.
I will now make corrections. By the way that bag was shot at s/60 only, at F11 ISO 100 @55mm


----------



## Quovadis

yeah, but until i get that experience, i need to see reflections in real time. My question again is? Do expensive strobes have strong modeling lights where you are able to see reflections in real time? Or are all modeling lights fairly weak, and just used to demonstrate where the light falls on the subject?
Are you able to focus on a subject using expensive strobes and modeling lights? Is there enough light? does the modeling light have enough light for you to focus on the subject using the view finder?


----------



## table1349

Well mine have 250 watt modeling lights in each head that are dime-able.


----------



## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> Well mine have 250 watt modeling lights in each head that are dime-able.



so you can see everything in real time. Just what I thought. do your modeling lights get hot? What brand are your strobes?
Guess I bought crappy strobes, with even crappier modeling lights.


----------



## tirediron

gryphonslair99 said:


> Well mine have 250 watt modeling lights in each head that are dime-able.


That's a good point, many strobes dim the modelling light proportionally with the strength of the strobe, so it's possible that if you turn your strobes up to full power you may get brighter modelling lights (just remember to turn them down before shooting), but that's not always the case.  Again, with a little experience, you will "see" the scene without having a single light on.  I only rarely use the modelling lights in my strobes, in fact, IIRC only 2-3 of my heads even have the modelling bulbs installed at the moment.


----------



## table1349

Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo


----------



## astroNikon

his are Neewer 300w strobes.  Graphon's modeling lights are probably brighter than his strobes.  I think my Speedlights are 2x than his strobes.


gryphonslair99 said:


> Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo


ouch.  Those are a tad expensive.  Know anyone else retiring with your strobes?


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well mine have 250 watt modeling lights in each head that are dime-able.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, many strobes dim the modelling light proportionally with the strength of the strobe, so it's possible that if you turn your strobes up to full power you may get brighter modelling lights (just remember to turn them down before shooting), but that's not always the case.  Again, with a little experience, you will "see" the scene without having a single light on.  I only rarely use the modelling lights in my strobes, in fact, IIRC only 2-3 of my heads even have the modelling bulbs installed at the moment.
Click to expand...


I understand what you say, but I have not reached the stage of being able to see invisible reflections yet, neither am I skilled enough to interpret their pathways.  So i have no choice but to see them to avoid the angles.
I bet you are going to say that you wear a blindfold next...


----------



## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo



Hey...if you die soon, I can buy them off you!! How is your health nowadays? LOL!!


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> I understand what you say, but I have not reached the stage of being able to see invisible reflections yet, neither am I skilled enough to interpret their pathways.  So i have no choice but to see them to avoid the angles.
> 
> I bet you are going to say that you wear a blindfold next...


How did you guess? Feel the light grasshopper, feel the light!



Take a day, I mean a full day, and do nothing but practice.  Spend ALL day at it.  Set up the lights, shoot the scene, review it on the computer (NOT just the camera's rear LCD), note the issues, adjust as you think appropriate, re-shoot... wash, rinse repeat.  By the time you've shot 5-600 frames, you'll start to get the hang of.  By supper time, it should start to make sense.  You have to understand, that there are no short cuts in this (for some things).


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey...if you die soon, I can buy them off you!! How is your health nowadays? LOL!!
Click to expand...

Haven't you read his posts?  He's so sour he's pickled.  He'll be around forever.


----------



## Quovadis

Guys, all jokes aside...my cfl mounts are too large to set near the strobes, is there anyway of retrofitting a strobe with a strong modeling light?
I can't be in two places at once to hold a flashlight


----------



## tirediron

astroNikon said:


> his are Neewer 300w strobes.  Graphon's modeling lights are probably brighter than his strobes.  I think my Speedlights are 2x than his strobes.
> 
> 
> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo
> 
> 
> 
> ouch.  Those are a tad expensive.  Know anyone else retiring with your strobes?
Click to expand...

300w/s is MORE than enough light for a job like this and plenty bright.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> Guys, all jokes aside...my cfl mounts are too large to set near the strobes, is there anyway of retrofitting a strobe with a strong modeling light?
> I can't be in two places at once to hold a flashlight


Not safely, no.  Probably not even unsafely.  What you can do is get a very strong LED flashlight, they're cheap & cheerful and use that to simulate the modeling light.


----------



## table1349

Quovadis said:


> gryphonslair99 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine are an older version that I picked up used from a photographer that retired.  This would be the modern equivalent. Norman D12R Pack, 4- IL2500 Head/Reflector Kit 812971 B&H Photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey...if you die soon, I can buy them off you!! How is your health nowadays? LOL!!
Click to expand...

Sorry but my Dr. is pissed because I am in such good health.  All my numbers, my lab work is good.  Sorry, you will have to look somewhere else.


----------



## Quovadis

These strobes are 250 watts x 4 , I have them turned down almost to a minimum. Every time they trigger I have to close my eyes, I see bright orange flashes even with my eyes closed.
The strobes are fine just the modeling light sucks. 
I imported a raw file into the raw editor and the WB is PERFECT. I mean the camera is taking perfect WB.

I cannot put into words how different the strobe light quality photo is compared to cfl. It's purer, very hard to describe, maybe cleaner? sharper? 
Now i must practice


----------



## tirediron

Sometimes it's worth it to spend a few extra dollars.  That image looks very good, but just a trifle over-exposed; easily correctable in post.


----------



## Quovadis

questions
This was shot at s 1/200 f11 ISO 100.
What is the grey bar to the left? Is that because the shutter speed is too high? or is it a lack of light on the left side?
This shadow in front? Is the light on the backdrop so strong that it is causing a shadow in front?
Why do I see strong orange flashes in my eyes when the strobes are triggered? Should i wear sunglasses?


----------



## tirediron

I'm not 100% sure about the grey bar; my first inclination is to say that it's a shutter sync problem.  Even if your shutter sync is 1/200, or 1/250 (not sure which yours is), sometimes, especially with cheaper triggers, you have to reduce the SS slightly; try 1/160th and see what happens.  Don't worry, it won't make any difference to your exposure.

The bottom shadow is a result of spill either from your background lights, or the one upper right; can't say for sure without seeing the setup, but either way, I would leave it.  as it precludes that "floating in air" look it would have otherwise.

As for your eyes...  that's the way the human eye is made and that's how it reacts to strong light.  The best advice I can give you is, "Don't look at the strobes when you pop them!".


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> I'm not 100% sure about the grey bar; my first inclination is to say that it's a shutter sync problem.  Even if your shutter sync is 1/200, or 1/250 (not sure which yours is), sometimes, especially with cheaper triggers, you have to reduce the SS slightly; try 1/160th and see what happens.  Don't worry, it won't make any difference to your exposure.
> 
> The bottom shadow is a result of spill either from your background lights, or the one upper right; can't say for sure without seeing the setup, but either way, I would leave it.  as it precludes that "floating in air" look it would have otherwise.
> 
> As for your eyes...  that's the way the human eye is made and that's how it reacts to strong light.  The best advice I can give you is, "Don't look at the strobes when you pop them!".


 Thank you so much. Yes I lowered S speed and the bar is gone. I also tried one shot at 250, and the gray bar turned black and menacing. 
I'm so glad you like the front shadow, so I don't have to figure out a way of removing it.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> I'm so glad you like the front shadow, so I don't have to figure out a way of removing it.


Dude, don't give a damn what_* I*_ like... it's all about what you like for your work.


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so glad you like the front shadow, so I don't have to figure out a way of removing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, don't give a damn what_* I*_ like... it's all about what you like for your work.
Click to expand...

 
Yeah, but if a critic such as yourself appreciates a front shadow. I would not dare remove it, I also like soft shadows.
I ordered a reflector with honey comb grids, I can't wait to try all this grid stuff to see how it changes the light.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> Yeah, but if a critic such as yourself appreciates a front shadow. I would not dare remove it, I also like soft shadows.
> I ordered a reflector with honey comb grids, I can't wait to try all this grid stuff to see how it changes the light.


I might have been doing this a little longer than you have, but that doesn't make me any more qualified to say what is good or not good than you or anyone else.  It's important to recognize issues with your own work and accept critique, but it's even more important to stand up for your work when it's the way you want it.


----------



## Quovadis

Going better. Today was like a roller coaster, but it seems this could work.
I do notice, that each shot needs more or less light..


----------



## Quovadis

I do not know if this is cause for concern but the following has been happening often since I use strobes. It never ever happened with CFL.
Occasionally, one out of every 20 pictures is black. However the camera does not freeze. I know the strobes triggered.
What has been happening today, is that the camera takes a shot and goes dead. I have to reboot the camera. The picture taken is horribly off color.
I do not know if this is a coincidence or something to do with strobes.
Do cameras need servicing? Mine is totally clean, never been out of the house.


----------



## tirediron

Modern digital cameras don't need regular servicing the way mechanical film cameras did.  I can only come up with two thoughts.  One is that it's purely coincidence, and the other is that the trigger is causing a problem somehow.  The former seems an awful stretch, but knowing how triggers and cameras work, the latter seems exceedingly unlikely.  Is your battery fully charged, memory card formatted?


----------



## Quovadis

Ah, yes, you could be very correct. Now, since yesterday,  there are triggers in the equation. I'm pretty sure it is the trigger. I have a spare hot shoe trigger i will try to replace it. It could well be this. 
Once again, these are cheap Neewer RT 16 triggers. Any cheaper, and they would throw them at you!


----------



## Quovadis

WOW
the difference with strobes or CFL lighting is HUGE. How both behave is completely different.
With strobes the pathway of light is ONE. It obeys the book, strobes obey the family of angles. Cfl's do not.
In other words a person reading SLM and is using CFL'S with multiple soft boxes may pull his hair out trying to make sense of the book.
Positioning strobes in different places around my bag gives me a completely different result. Cfl's give more or less the same mess no matter where they are placed.
I am now starting to understand that we DO NOT NEED to see reflections in real time before they happen with strobes, because if they are outside the family the metal will be dark, and never cause a direct reflection.
WOW!! CFL'S should be banned from photography.


----------



## astroNikon

He sees the Light !! (pun intended)


----------



## Quovadis

Ummm, my first patent leather bag.
One light on the backdrop which is fine.
The other 3 strobes are pointing to the white ceiling and are just giving light all over. I tried two strobes to the side of the bag and I get reflections. Where would you place the light?
Maybe one directly above the bag?


----------



## tirediron

Is that real patent leather, or plastic?

I would start by placing one light on each side about 50-60 degrees off of lens axis and quite close to the bag (reducing output as necessary of course) so that what you have is a broad ellipse of light hitting the bag from each side.  I might also try a polarizing filter to see if that helped.


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Is that real patent leather, or plastic?
> 
> I would start by placing one light on each side about 50-60 degrees off of lens axis and quite close to the bag (reducing output as necessary of course) so that what you have is a broad ellipse of light hitting the bag from each side.  I might also try a polarizing filter to see if that helped.


 
Plastic but Coach calls it patent leather.


----------



## Quovadis

this was two lights here at a 30 deg angle. But they are high up looking down.
It was shot at s 1/100


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that real patent leather, or plastic?
> 
> I would start by placing one light on each side about 50-60 degrees off of lens axis and quite close to the bag (reducing output as necessary of course) so that what you have is a broad ellipse of light hitting the bag from each side.  I might also try a polarizing filter to see if that helped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plastic but Coach calls it patent leather.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's considerably more of a PIA because of how reflective it is, but it's doable.


----------



## astroNikon

i'm waiting for him to photography a purse with millions of those small mirrors sewn all over it.


----------



## Quovadis

is this correct?
Both lights are close to the bag.
Is the angle correct?


----------



## tirediron

I would move the lights so that the vertical part of the stands are touching the edge of the table and rotate them so that the light is flowing almost parallel to the face of the bag.


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> I would move the lights so that the vertical part of the stands are touching the edge of the table and rotate them so that the light is flowing almost parallel to the face of the bag.



Thanks
URGENT QUESTION
i just noticed that changing S peed does hardly nothing. Before with cf'l's any change in faster SS gave me a darker image and vice versa, not with strobes I can go from s 1/100 in the opposite direction and the picture does not get brighter at all....please explain


----------



## tirediron

Shutter speed has no affect on flash (as long as you stay below your maximum sync speed)* because the duration of the flash is very short; as little as 1/10,000 of a second (for your units probably more like 1/800 - 1/2000) so, because the shutter is fully open before the flash fires, and doesn't begin to close until the flash has completed firing, it has no affect.  Aperture and ISO are your exposure controls for flash exposures.

*Unless it gets so slow that the ambient light begins to affect it.


----------



## Quovadis

Angled them on the side and this is what I got. Front of bag is dark


----------



## tirediron

Okay, so start bringing them back toward the camera.  Don't forget your presentation; there's a nasty wrinkle/dent in the left bottom corner of that bag.


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Shutter speed has no affect on flash (as long as you stay below your maximum sync speed)* because the duration of the flash is very short; as little as 1/10,000 of a second (for your units probably more like 1/800 - 1/2000) so, because the shutter is fully open before the flash fires, and doesn't begin to close until the flash has completed firing, it has no affect.  Aperture and ISO are your exposure controls for flash exposures.
> 
> *Unless it gets so slow that the ambient light begins to affect it.


So the only way to control a light or dark image is to change strobe intensity? My F11 is set in stone. Iso pretty much at 100


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shutter speed has no affect on flash (as long as you stay below your maximum sync speed)* because the duration of the flash is very short; as little as 1/10,000 of a second (for your units probably more like 1/800 - 1/2000) so, because the shutter is fully open before the flash fires, and doesn't begin to close until the flash has completed firing, it has no affect.  Aperture and ISO are your exposure controls for flash exposures.
> 
> *Unless it gets so slow that the ambient light begins to affect it.
> 
> 
> 
> So the only way to control a light or dark image is to change strobe intensity? My F11 is set in stone. Iso pretty much at 100
Click to expand...

If you don't want to change the aperture or ISO, then yep, adding or reducing light is it.


----------



## Quovadis

well.. i think for this frontal shot the ceiling works better.
Now I have to give the bag a tad more light in front. Maybe ISO 200. I have no reflectors yet...have not gotten to that stage...Duh!
This is the sort of bag you would give to your worst enemy to photograph..."Go! do it and come back when you succeed", you would probably not see him for the next year.


----------



## tirediron

You may want to try adding a third light as fill, on axis and aimed down about 30-40 degrees.


----------



## Designer

Tirediron; can I bring you a drink?  Do you drink?  Need a shoulder massage?  Can I go to your house and feed your cat for you?  Here is the sandwich menu.


----------



## Quovadis

Tried fill lights, the reflections creep back in.
I think for the patent leather the ceiling is working best.
This is the best I can do...now the position of bag is gonna change...so a new can of worms.


----------



## table1349

Designer said:


> Tirediron; can I bring you a drink?  Do you drink?  Need a shoulder massage?  Can I go to your house and feed your cat for you?  Here is the sandwich menu.


Deja vue?


----------



## Quovadis

Gryph, I think I'm going to send you the bloody bag, so you can shoot it to death with your Ferrari-like strobes!


----------



## table1349

I did that for years.  I'm retired now and shoot what I want, when I want and as I want.   When you have been doing this for over 45 years you tend to acquire a bit of gear.


----------



## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> I did that for years.  I'm retired now and shoot what I want, when I want and as I want.   When you have been doing this for over 45 years you tend to acquire a bit of gear.



What sort of photography did you do for a living? Or is/was photography a hobby? Have you ever shot a black plastic bag with Coach written all over it?


----------



## table1349

Advertising, catalogue, & fashion for the most part.  On the side photojournalism and Sports photography.  One thing I learned was it takes time and practice to learn what you want to learn.  The first thing you have to do is learn light and the properties of light. That takes time and effort to accomplish because it is as much science as anything.  

When I asked you early on about angles it was simple geometry.  A simple way to learn practical geometry is play Billiards.  Me I prefer carom or three cushion billiards.  You learn the physics and geometry much quicker than say pocket billiards.  

Once you understand light you can use the same geometry it takes to make a successful billiards shot to set lights.


----------



## Quovadis

gryphonslair99 said:


> Advertising, catalogue, & fashion for the most part.  On the side photojournalism and Sports photography.  One thing I learned was it takes time and practice to learn what you want to learn.  The first thing you have to do is learn light and the properties of light. That takes time and effort to accomplish because it is as much science as anything.
> 
> When I asked you early on about angles it was simple geometry.  A simple way to learn practical geometry is play Billiards.  Me I prefer carom or three cushion billiards.  You learn the physics and geometry much quicker than say pocket billiards.
> 
> Once you understand light you can use the same geometry it takes to make a successful billiards shot to set lights.



Umm interesting, never visualized these purses as white balls. So the strobe is the cue, and the element bouncing the light are the sides of the table. So where does the bloody camera come in? Maybe it's the hole?
I agree to what the book says and what you are saying, but there are only so many places you can place a light around the subject. I did just add a fill light as John suggested, but this was a different shot. It worked on this one, but not on the frontal shot.
I will keep trying. Much easier with strobes though than it was previously.


----------



## tirediron

Designer said:


> Tirediron; can I bring you a drink?  Do you drink?  Need a shoulder massage?  Can I go to your house and feed your cat for you?  Here is the sandwich menu.


Liverwurst on rye please, hot mustard, pickle and something dark from the draught tap.


----------



## Quovadis

One style shot in particular is giving me a lot of grief with patent leather bags. Actually, this shot is 100% harder with strobes than with cfl's. I stayed up till 3 am trying to get it right.
The bag is flat on the table. With strobes I am getting spill from behind, from the backdrop, and I cannot place a light above the flat bag. Tried two angled front lights, and they also interfere.
The first shot is taken with strobes and the rest were taken with cfl's. I have to find a workaround, otherwise I will have to do half my shots with cfl and half with strobes.
Look at 8 and 10 jpg. The top of the bag is illuminated but there are no direct reflections. I cannot seem to do this with strobes no matter where i place the lights. I tried shooting all 4 strobes up to the ceiling, and this also failed..


----------



## tirediron

This is where you need to start working with flags and reflectors and actually shaping the light.  You need:  (1)  A butt load of white and black foam-core; (2) a utility knife & cutting board; and (3) patience.


----------



## Quovadis

I can place small pieces a4 size around the table, but do not see myself working with large flags and reflectors. Tripods are so annoying, they take so much floor space up. I wish someone would invent a ceiling system.
The two single things that annoy me the most in photography are 1. tripod feet and 2. My bloody Nikon will not stay on 2 second delay.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> ... I wish someone would invent a ceiling system...


Ask, and ye shall receive...


----------



## astroNikon

Something like this may come in handy at some point
Photography 40x60" 5in1 Light Mulit Collapsible Portable Photo Reflector 110x150


----------



## astroNikon

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I wish someone would invent a ceiling system...
> 
> 
> 
> Ask, and ye shall receive...
Click to expand...

but one that costs under $200 ....


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I wish someone would invent a ceiling system...
> 
> 
> 
> Ask, and ye shall receive...
Click to expand...

WOW!!
exactly what I need. There is a small technical problem though. If I bought that, and my wife found out, I would be photographing my own testes on a platter instead of Coach bags.


----------



## astroNikon

if you have money, 
there's always a solution


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quovadis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I wish someone would invent a ceiling system...
> 
> 
> 
> Ask, and ye shall receive...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> WOW!!
> exactly what I need. There is a small technical problem though. If I bought that, and my wife found out, I would be photographing my own testes on a platter instead of Coach bags.
Click to expand...

A product is a product...


----------



## Quovadis

astroNikon said:


> if you have money,
> there's always a solution



Yeah!!!
People that say money does not buy happiness, do not know where to shop!


----------



## Quovadis

astroNikon said:


> Something like this may come in handy at some point
> Photography 40x60" 5in1 Light Mulit Collapsible Portable Photo Reflector 110x150



Yeah,  "in handy"...but i only have two of them. These things have to be held in place and angled. I would need super long arms, like that guy in Xmen. Again, one could buy a pet octopus and teach him to hold them around the bag.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something like this may come in handy at some point
> Photography 40x60" 5in1 Light Mulit Collapsible Portable Photo Reflector 110x150
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah,  "in handy"...but i only have two of them. These things have to be held in place and angled. I would need super long arms, like that guy in Xmen. Again, one could buy a pet octopus and teach him to hold them around the bag.
Click to expand...

Blu-Tac, pieces of wood, plastic, straws, bamboo garden stakes...  you'd be surprised what you find in a product photographers tickle-trunk.


----------



## Quovadis

It makes me think that in 3d applications you can position any type of light anywhere in a 3d space. The lights in photo shop suck, they are only two dimensional.


----------



## Quovadis

It just pisses me off that these sort of canvas bags, I take one shot, and it's always good, but anything with shiny PVC or patent leather is killing me.


----------



## Designer

Why are they shiny?  Are they supposed to be shiny?


----------



## Quovadis

Designer said:


> Why are they shiny?  Are they supposed to be shiny?



Yes.. they are supposed to be shiny, however direct reflections on this material looks horrible. You do have a point though. You mean "Why use force when there's Vaseline"?


----------



## Designer

My point is that they're going to look shiny, so why not accept that?  

Actually, I do understand that if you're getting the strong reflection of your lights in the material, so much so that people could tell what your lights look like, then maybe not.

In case you haven't gotten to the point in the book about using larger light sources, you might want to give that a try.


----------



## Quovadis

Designer said:


> My point is that they're going to look shiny, so why not accept that?
> 
> Actually, I do understand that if you're getting the strong reflection of your lights in the material, so much so that people could tell what your lights look like, then maybe not.
> 
> In case you haven't gotten to the point in the book about using larger light sources, you might want to give that a try.



Yes i'm using large soft boxes with dual layer diffusion, very close to the bag. Do you have any better idea?


----------



## Quovadis

Maybe I'm going to re-instate my tent for these shinier bags, an extra layer of diffusion. Or may be buy sheets of translucent rigid plastic.


----------



## Quovadis

I have a problem. My strobes have been firing for no reason and they are not on slave. They are all on channel 4. Had the slave feature be turned on I would understand they fire for no reason, because we have some distant lightning in the area.
My camera is not even turned on?


----------



## tirediron

Wireless interference?


----------



## Quovadis

Another important question:
Today I went to home depot and bought some frosted window film. Said film, has one shiny side and one matte side. Is it important which side faces the lights, and which side faces the subject?
I am using clothespins to add this layer of frosted film to my softboxes directly outside the outermost layer of white satin fabric.
Would this layer of frosted window film benefit diffusion more if it were distanced from the softbox and the subject? 
In other words, instead of adding a layer to a softbox that already has two diffusion layers, would the placing of the film in between the light trajectory and the subject be more beneficial than simply adding an extra layer to the softbox?


----------



## tirediron

I've never tried using window film for this and have no idea how it would work.  I can't see it mattering too much which side faces which way, but a quick experiment should answer that question for you.  The further from the light source the greater the diffusion. Why not just go to a sewing store and by a bold of white ripstop nylon?


----------



## Quovadis

tirediron said:


> I've never tried using window film for this and have no idea how it would work.  I can't see it mattering too much which side faces which way, but a quick experiment should answer that question for you.  The further from the light source the greater the diffusion. Why not just go to a sewing store and by a bold of white ripstop nylon?



Ah! I will try that. Is it called ripbstop? Or ripstop?


----------



## Quovadis

Wow
I just tried a light modifier I really like. It's a reflector dish you place around your strobe and it has 3 types of honey comb fittings (50 30 and 10).
I think 10 must be the narrowest beam and 50 much larger? Not sure.
I was totally surprised that there were no hot spots on the leather. I mean soft boxes have multiple layers of diffusion and I still get hot spots and with this smaller and harder light, none?
I like this modifier, because it give the bag a mysterious look, that the softbox cannot.
I read about modifiers all day long, but until you actually try them, it's hard to understand what people are trying to convey. The picture is somewhat under exposed, but I like the effect.


----------



## tirediron

Quovadis said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never tried using window film for this and have no idea how it would work.  I can't see it mattering too much which side faces which way, but a quick experiment should answer that question for you.  The further from the light source the greater the diffusion. Why not just go to a sewing store and by a bold of white ripstop nylon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah! I will try that. Is it called ripbstop? Or ripstop?
Click to expand...

"Ripstop" - it's nylon fabric with a pattern of white threads through it.


----------



## Quovadis

cannot find an answer to :
What is the difference between a normal reflector and a zoom reflector? Why is a zoom reflector called a zoom reflector? Does the zoom affect the light? Or has this to do with a zoom lens?


----------

