# Recommendations for Beginner looking to start more work soon.



## katyasag (Feb 19, 2013)

Hello! New to the forum. I am working on establishing a photography practice. got some things going business wise (website, cards, contacts, ect.) 

Will actually be getting a decent income return back soon and I want to invest it in photography equipment. 

I plan to do some studio work but mostly outdoor stuff, weddings and some commercial. 

I am thinking I would like to invest in lighting. 

Any ideas of some things a beginner like me should invest in equipment wise? Starter essentials? 
And where I can get them for a good deal?


Many thanks!!!


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## tirediron (Feb 19, 2013)

Sorry, but I don't quite follow.  Do you mean that you want to establish a photography business and are looking for recommendations for gear to use in a professional capacity?  I would submit that is rather putting the cart before the horse.  If you want to undertake photography as a profession, like any other profession from butcher to baker to candle-stick maker (I'll refrain from using "Doctor"  ) you need education and training.  In short, if you don't know the basics about the equipment you need, you probably don't know enough at this point to hang out your shingle.  I would strongly suggest books.  LOTS and lots of books on everything from exposure to composition to business practice and contract law.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 19, 2013)

Katy...

You can't just pick up a camera and be an instant "PRO". It is also not ethical to charge people while you "learn". 

Most of us shot for many years before we ever decided to shoot for money... being a "Professional" has responsibilities to deliver a professional product!


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## pixmedic (Feb 19, 2013)

before you even worry about equipment like bodys, lenses, and lighting, OR websites, business cards and contacts....you should have your business license or DBA, tax ID, and liability insurance. and before ANY of this, you should know how to use your equipment to provide professional results before you accept dime #1.


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## KmH (Feb 19, 2013)

How much of your money can we spend?
Flashpoint 620M Portrait Wedding Monolight Kit, with Two 620M Monolights, Stands, Umbrellas,Case, Snoot
Flashpoint II D/C Battery Power Pack with Replaceable Nickel-Hydrogen Batteries, for use with the M Series Monolights
Flashpoint II 36" x 36 Softbox for all Model II Monolights, Velcro Edge Accepts Egg Crate Grid 
http://www.speedotron.com/products/
http://www.profoto.com/products

A first step needs to be a well researched and written business/marketing plan. Starting a Business | SBA.go
Retail photography - weddings. portraits, etc - has a very different business model from Commercial photography.
Case Study: Producing A Successful Estimate | DigitalPhotoPro.com

How to Start a Home-Based Photography Business, 6th (Home-Based Business Series)
A Digital Photographer's Guide to Model Releases: Making the Best Business Decisions with Your Photos of People, Places and Things
Profitable Photography in Digital Age: Strategies for Success
Photographic Lighting Equipment: A Comprehensive Guide for Digital Photographers
Minimalist Lighting: Professional Techniques for Location Photography 
Minimalist Lighting: Professional Techniques for Studio Photography 
Best Business Practices for Photographers, Second Edition 
The ASMP Guide to New Markets in Photography 
ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography


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## gregtallica (Feb 19, 2013)

I'd probably go iPhone 5 or wait for the 5s when it comes out. Lots of great filters.








Since I feel like I'm too new to be sneer with anyone, I would recommend reading everything here first. It's kind of common to immediately jump out with your question, and there are some pros here with _seriously_ good info, but I think your question is too vague because I'm not sure you fully know what you want yet. Have you been shooting for a while? Do you have a decent DSLR and the training past auto?

Example: Wedding photography - good luck. I would recommend reading every thread on "my first wedding shoot" before you even consider adding that to your profile.

Commercial - more specific. Do you want to take pictures of earrings and shoes, or models wearing fancy shirts with their hair done up?

My point is - it would serve you well to simply explore and just _read everything_ on here. Check the Articles Of Interest, lurk around in different areas that you like. It has served HUGE for me. For instance, I wouldn't even question shooting a wedding anytime soon, not even for my best friend for free.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 19, 2013)

What kind of background do you have in photography? school, night courses, read a dummies guide to photography perhaps?  it's difficult to recommend anything without knowing more that I want to establish a photography practice.  Any additional information would be helpful.  Your decent income tax return would be a start, gives us a base point as to what kind of gear you can afford.


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## bratkinson (Feb 20, 2013)

"Buy a camera and lens, maybe a flash or two, and I'm an instant professional photographer." 

or is it:

"Just got my first camera with kit glass. How do I start a wedding photography business?".

Sorry to seem so harsh, but the reality is that in all businesses, becoming a professional requires more than just some hardware/equipment and a place to put them. Whether it's a law degree, driving a race car, becoming a licensed electrician, or even starting a restaurant, there's always a BIG learning curve to get the basics well under control, and THEN the lengthy period of gaining experience in the real world. And, based on my 40+ years in the computer field and almost as many as an active amateur photographer, it's the EXPERIENCE that is more important than the equipment! 

Unfortunately, photography is not one of 'rigid rules and/or formulas'. If that were the case, simple point and shoot cameras could take any kind of shot we want to take on 'full automatic'. Instead, EXPERIENCE is used to go from what we 'see', to what we want it to look like, to what steps/equipment is needed, to what compromises can/may be required, to get the result we want, to get the image someone likes.


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## gsgary (Feb 20, 2013)

**** me ive heard it all now all the richardheads must come straight to this website


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## HerkFE (Feb 20, 2013)

gsgary said:


> **** me ive heard it all now all the richardheads must come straight to this website



Hey I went other places first...


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

gsgary said:


> **** me ive heard it all now all the richardheads must come straight to this website



so how was your post any more helpful to the OP than anyone else's? or less rude?
(im assuming you are referring to peoples responses to the OP, if not, apologies in advance)


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 20, 2013)

Doesn't really matter, the Op has left the building, off to pick up the new "I am a professional business cards", fire up the "I have a professional web site" find some clients because "I am now a professional photographer" and then to buy her first camera and dummies guide to photography.  What a swell business model this is, and here it's taken me over 40 years to get where I am.  Stupid me, learning how to use camera first.


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## Designer (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi, katyasag, and welcome to the forum!  

I for one, have not missed the implication that you are going to start making money soon!  Well done!


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

Maybe we could have something set up on the server to automatically  generate outraged comments from seasoned pros... save everyone a lot of  typing every time someone wants to get into business..


Hmm... I  wonder if there's a bakers forum somewhere online that girl-scouts can  go ask for cookie recepies and get shouted by experienced bakers that they have no business baking cookies without 7000+  years experience, a lifetime of hard knocks and a grumpy demeanor


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Maybe we could have something set up on the server to automatically  generate outraged comments from seasoned pros... save everyone a lot of  typing every time someone wants to get into business..
> 
> 
> Hmm... I  wonder if there's a bakers forum somewhere online that girl-scouts can  go ask for cookie recepies and get shouted by experienced bakers that they have no business baking cookies without 7000+  years experience, a lifetime of hard knocks and a grumpy demeanor



well, when someone gets on the forum making inquiries about starting a business...experience, a good business plan, proper equipment, and proper business legalities ARE the right advice to give. what would you have people say? sure, go ahead and start taking work under the table, not paying taxes, no liability insurance. go get this gear and start charging people, you can learn as you go. I think the best advice you could give someone starting a business is to research how to do it properly and legally. 

anyone that spends 10 minutes searching the forum for threads relating to starting a photography business will see the trend of answers along these same lines...every time. 
maybe thats because its the right answer. not saying we always give it in the best manner...but, the information is still the most relevant.


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

I know -- and you're 100% right (well, you are _assuming_ no busines plan, no insurance, no tax paid etc, but I would put money on your being right) -- it's just that these questions come up over and over and over again, and people get sick of giving the same advice, and end up delivering it.. 'ungently', the OP then leaves the forum and either gives up on their dream, or goes ahead anyway without benefitting from all the good advie they could have got.  There has to be an easier way...

I have tried to start up my own business (_*not *_photography) the legal route - getting a business plan, bank accounts, insurance, accountant, legal company status, etc all in place... the business went no-where and I really wish I'd just tested the water a bit first as it would have saved me a heap of money.

There is a bit of chicken and egg thing with starting a business.  Starting a business is not all that cheap, and if you're not going to accept any bookings before it's all legal, it's quite a risk (not arguing for starting a photography business before learning which end of a camera is which of course -- that's a whole different question).  IF i was going to start trying to make money from photography, I think the only thing I wouldn't considder skipping to start with would be insurance, which is relatively cheap anyway.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> I know -- and you're 100% right (well, you are assuming no busines plan, no insurance, no tax paid etc, but I would put money on your being right) -- it's just that these questions come up over and over and over again, and people get sick of giving the same advice, and end up delivering it.. 'ungently', the OP then leaves the forum and either gives up on their dream, or goes ahead anyway without benefitting from all the good advie they could have got.  There has to be an easier way...
> 
> I have tried to start up my own business (not photography) the legal route - getting a business plan, bank accounts, insurance, accountant, legal company status, etc all in place... the business went no-where and I really wish I'd just tested the water a bit first as it would have saved me a heap of money.
> 
> There is a bit of chicken and egg thing with starting a business.  Starting a business is not all that cheap, and if you're not going to accept any bookings before it's all legal, it's quite a risk (not arguing for starting a photography business before learning which end of a camera is which of course -- that's a whole different question).  IF i was going to start trying to make money from photography, I think the only thing I wouldn't considder skipping to start with would be insurance, which is relatively cheap anyway.



"testing the water" with a business is all fine and dandy.... As long as NOTHING goes wrong. You could go a whole career without incident,  or you could get sued by your first client. You might never get audited by the IRS and have them find unreported income, or you might get caught year one. Some people are willing to take that chance.  Roll those dice.  We weren't.  

Tons of people have under the table businesses and never get caught.  From day one we never worried about it because my wife decided to do everything by the book,  and we feel better about it knowing that we pay taxes on ALL our income and are all square with the state. maybe we don't have the most successful photography  business. maybe we don't have a huge FB following constantly praising our work. what we DO have however, is a legal business reporting income and paying taxes quarterly, with liability insurance protecting us and our clients.  Other peoples mileage may vary.


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

I ment for a month or two to see how it goes (and keeping records) with a view to going all legal as soon as it's obviously not going to be just a pipe-dream, not for years as an under the table career.


Also, while there's things I really don't think a noobie should be attempting - weddings, births, etc..  it's a free country and a free market economy.  If someone wants to pay $25 for a bad portrait, really, that's their choice.

Any chef could tell you that McDonalds is ****, but if you wanna spend $5 on lunch, not $50, then you get what you pay for, and while a chef might say McDonalds has no right calling what they produce 'food', their customers are probably ok with what they're getting for their money.

Generally you won't book a photographer without looking through their portfolio, and if badly lit snapshots is exactly what you want... well it's cheaper to pay someone else that doesn't know how to use a camera $25 for a hour or two than buying yourself a camera you don't know how to use either for $500 and doing it yourself :lmao:


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## Overread (Feb 20, 2013)

Don't forget that starting a business from scratch with little or no experience in that field of work is very hard. You've got to pick up your craft skills, your business skills and also then apply both to the market without any working experience of the market. Even doing good background studies in preparation won't have you fully ready if you go this path. 

Remember there are other options, many people work for already established firms/companies - from small scale to big scale. Letting you learn and gain experiences without putting your name or company at risk. It also means that you can earn whilst working in the trade you want to without having to venture out - indeed many often find that they prefer working for someone and letting someone else do all the boring paperwork, accounting, etc...


If you want to go back to analogies the girl scouts are unlikely to start running their own bakery, but chances are they'll work the shop front in an already running bakery for a good while before they go it alone. Heck they might even rise up within the bakery and not even need to go it alone.


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## Overread (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> Generally you won't book a photographer without looking trought their portfolio, and if badly lit snapshots is exactly what you want... well it's cheaper to pay someone else that doesn't know how to use a camera $25 for a hour or two than buying yourself a camera you don't know how to use either and doing it yourself :greenpbl:




Most clients are not very discerning and can't tell quality from trash. Furthermore don't forget that with little experience in the field and with a small equipment and skills set new situations will be hard. A beginner could do a nice outdoor wedding and get some pretty good shots in good light to advertise with - but throw them in a dark church and the results could drop significantly form what they've advertised their product as. 

As for quality, as hobbyists and professionals many here are very unlikely to suggest to people that they should put the overall quality of the product last to the point where its almost considered immaterial next to just wanting to run a business.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 20, 2013)

It's not even that the right steps have been taken to start a photo business, it's that no steps seem to have been taken by the Op other than wanting to buy a camera and start booking clients.  There doesn't seem to have been any research done prior to the post.  People on this forum offer great advice all the time, but when someone comes on with a post of like this, it is frustrating for the few professionals that visit this forum.  People are always looking to take short cuts into photography.  we talk about people having to pay their dues, after all most professionals have had to work pretty heard to get to where they are.  In this generation of everything being done instantly a lot of people feel they don't have to know as much to be successful in business, when it is quite the opposite.

In photography, digital allows people to take the short cuts to pictures without having to really understand what they are even doing.  Starting any business is easy, staying in business is the tough part.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> I ment for a month or two to see how it goes (and keeping records) not for years as an under the table career.
> 
> 
> Also, while there's things I really don't think a noobie should be attempting - weddings, births, etc..  it's a free country and a free market economy.  If someone wants to pay $25 for a bad portrait, really, that's their choice.
> ...



its all true. as much as I loathe turning down work...we cant (and wont) give someone 50 pictures on disk with copyrights and unlimited shooting time for $50. and yet, we get plenty of people looking for just that because they saw a craigslist ad, or a FB  page where the photographer was offering that kind of a deal. oh sure...they saw my wifes work and liked it, but they want the craigslist deal anyway. we have gotten a few emails that said we CLEARLY need to lower our prices if we want to be competitive with FB and craigslist deals. thats like telling a car dealer they need to give you the car cheaper because someone has it for less on craigslist. 

Its frustrating to us sometimes, because my wife spent a few years with a local wedding photographer learning from him, and also working in the portrait studio before doing job one on her own. apparently that kind of preparation and prior experience is/was completely unnecessary.


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## o hey tyler (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, it seems I am not needed in this thread.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 20, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> Well, it seems I am not needed in this thread.




I think it's all buttoned up at this point.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> o hey tyler said:
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> > Well, it seems I am not needed in this thread.
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nah...im ALWAYS interested to see what Tyler has to say.


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## o hey tyler (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> nah...im ALWAYS interested to see what Tyler has to say.



I appreciate that, however the OP seems to know what's up. I mean, she's got a Nikon D50, and that is great for the high ISO performance... Which is needed when shooting weddings. She's also probably got some blazing fast f/3.5-5.6 glass which is a huge step up from the f/8 mirror lenses I use to shoot weddings. 

She knows that she needs lights for a studio set up, so I'm sure when she gets them in the mail she will be all set for her first commercial shoot for Dolce & Gabana. She's really got all of her ducks in a row... I don't see what the big deal is.


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## CCericola (Feb 20, 2013)

Test the water = get a job/intern with an established business.


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## Light Guru (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> I  wonder if there's a bakers forum somewhere online that girl-scouts can  go ask for cookie recepies and get shouted by experienced bakers that they have no business baking cookies without 7000+  years experience, a lifetime of hard knocks and a grumpy demeanor



Apparently your knowledge of Girl Scouts and their cookies is lacking. Girl Scouts sell MILLIONS of boxes of cookies each year, I think they have plenty of experience. And why would Girl Scouts need to ask for cookie recipes? Have you never tasted a Thin Mint? If anything we should be asking the Girl Scouts for cookie recipes.


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## jwbryson1 (Feb 20, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Doesn't really matter, the Op has left the building




Actually it appears that the OP is currently lurking on the website.  Probably not happy with this thread and trying to decide if and when to respond. I don't blame her----this can be a tough forum, especially when your first post looks much like hers.

I'd invite the OP to respond to this thread and stick around.  You'll learn a LOT and make some friends.   :mrgreen:


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

Doesn't anybody get tired of saying the same thing, over, and over, and over?


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

jwbryson1 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
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^^^hes right...
we can be a little rough out the gate, especially on certain subjects, but there is a LOT of great information to be found here.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Doesn't anybody get tired of saying the same thing, over, and over, and over?



apparently not.  
besides, if we did, noone on the forum longer than a month would ever answer anything.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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But wouldn't it be easier to just have a stock answer to lighting equipment recommendations, that you could cut and paste here, and disregard what the person is going to use it for? You know, instead of playing the "you are not a pro" broken record?


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


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about as much as you could come on and answer the OP's question  instead of playing the "you guys are badgering the new member" broken record.


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

The trouble with photography is that there aren't a great deal of intern jobs going in it.

It's a funny business -- there can't be many other industries where so many people do it for fun.  There can't many people that are avid ameture plumbers or taxi drivers.

One thing that interests me is do the proper pros feel taht the mum-with-camera brigade actually damages their business?  Like the public gets the idea a photo shoot is worth $50 and will no-longer paid for proper work?  I'd argue that McDonalds hasn't killed off proper resturants, but flat packed furnature has done a good job of killing off (but not completely obviously) properly crafted furnature.

You could look at it two ways -- if someone is only willing to pay $50 then you don't want their business, but then again, would they be willing to pay more if they couldn't get a cheap tog...?  I have no idea, but it seems like people ony get cross when they feel attacked in some way, rather than just because they come across someone a bit clueless.  Curious to know if people do feel this hurts their business...

Also (at risk of getting mega flamed here, but have to say it)....if the customer can't genuinely can't tell the difference, then really, what are you adding over a mum-with-cam? Most customers will see the difference I'm sure, but for those that can't, and maybe mum-with-cam can take those people from you, but that's how a free market works


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


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I don't know anything about studio lighting, so NO, I couldn't answer her question.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> The trouble with photography is that there aren't a great deal of intern jobs going in it.
> 
> It's a funny business -- there can't be many other industries where so many people do it for fun.  There can't many people that are avid ameture plumbers or taxi drivers.
> 
> ...



heh, thats its own never ending debate. I suppose it depends on how low the photographer is willing to go. depending on what your CODB is, you can only shoot so cheap before it costs you more to do the work than you make. I guess some people feel that SOME money is better than NO money. those with lower overheads can go cheaper if they want. some people skimp on certain costs. we keep studio work costs down by not having our own studio, but renting space from a local studio on an as needed basis. we don't consider the MWAC's (im actually starting to dislike that term) to be damaging to our  business.  you could go cheaper, but do a lot more work, (IE: quantity over quality) and still make money at the end of the month. 

some people are only willing to pay $50 for a photographer because thats all they have to spare. I dont really think its so terrible that there are people willing to provide a service to those people. its the law of supply and demand. I can see where the sheer volume of those "cheap photogs" might be harmful to some businesses, but the real question the Pros have to ask is....if you have a potential client, and their budget for a wedding is $200, and NO more, what do you do with them? if you cant/wont do the work at that price,  you cant really talk about how terrible photogs are that are willing to do it that cheap if you are turning away those clients. they are just filling a niche for people that cant afford the higher end photographers and would have otherwise gotten no pictures at all.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


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well then, I guess your post is about as relevant as the rest of ours. welcome to the club!


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


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I do have a question you COULD answer though..just out of curiosity, and totally hypothetical,  IF I were to tell you that I wanted to start a business making and repairing jewelery, something i have little to no experience with, but wanted to know what kind of equipment i should go out and buy to get my business started...what advice would you give me?


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> ralphh said:
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Well that's pretty much what i'd have thought...

So lets (quite reasonably) assume that the only reason you're willing to do a photoshoot for $50 is because that's all your worth because you're just getting going and still learning, where does all this come in:



cgipson1 said:


> It is also not ethical to charge people while you "learn".



Seriously, are you so great that there's nothing more to learn _at all_?  You're not still learning all the time?  Must get dull....

I'd argue we're all learning to some extent, and how far we are down that road determins how much you're worth.

Ok, wrecking someones wedding photos is not cool, but doing a bad portrait for $25 or $50 vs a good one for $200 or $500 or whatever... well isn't that just how a free market works?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


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I have no problem giving you a complete list of what you would need to start a shop. What I couldn't do is teach you how to use the tools, UNTIL YOU HAVE THEM. How are you going to learn the trade, if you don't have the tools? 

How is the OP gonna learn studio lighting, without lights?


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## gsgary (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> gsgary said:
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> > **** me ive heard it all now all the richardheads must come straight to this website
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I'm referring to the stupid question asked by OP


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> It is also not ethical to charge people while you "learn".



BULL****.
I do it all the time.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


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I would disagree with your first statement only in the fact that people can charge $50 for portraits for whatever reason they want. cheap work isn't reserved for newbies and hacks. 
you could be a great photographer but choose to do some work cheap for underprivileged families.  its possible that special circumstances dictate what someone charges. 
granted, that is a bit of an extreme example, but we tend to judge based on price alone, and not on actual work that has been submitted. I am as guilty as the next person on that one, but I think it is a reason people almost never discuss what they actually charge here.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

gsgary said:


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my most humble and sincerest apologies then  :hail:


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


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well damn...I guess we ARE all a bunch of a$$holes then. I guess I have to concede that I DO see the point you are making. 
(but I totally stand by my assertion that you should have all state legal business requirements in place BEFORE taking clients)


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

^^^ lol

you did make me laugh with this one; 



pixmedic said:


> before you even worry about equipment [snip....] and before ANY of this, you should know how to use  your equipment


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


> ^^^ lol
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> you did make me laugh with this one;
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yea, the snip WAS a pretty funny bit. I dont remember putting it in there though...but I guess I did. im a funny guy.
you DID cut out the last part of that sentence that read..."before taking paying clients" 
as in, get the gear, learn how to use it, charge people. in that order.


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## KmH (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> cgipson1 said:
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As do most professions.


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## ralphh (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


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it was just you started of with 'before worrying about gear', listed a load of things, then said, before any of those, learn your gear.  Just ammused me... that gear was the least, and most important thing, all at once.  Sorry


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ralphh said:


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I live to entertain, if nothing else.


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## Overread (Feb 20, 2013)

KmH said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
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Are we are the splitting hairs and taking to extremes part of the thread again? 
Whilst everyone always has more stuff to lean and many professionals (often those at the head of their game) are often  trying out new things there is a vast difference between someone who understands the basics and has experience experimenting and someone who hasn't very much if any real experience doing the same thing.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

Overread said:


> KmH said:
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> ...



Not extreme at all. You are making assumptions of my skills, my experiences, and what I have to learn.
I had ZERO experience in CAD/CAM. Bought $10k of software, and $16K for CAM equipment, and I went to town learning and as I learned, I used my basic skills and started charging. I even raised my prices because I am offering a service few in the area have, WHILE I WAS/AM learning.  Oh dear. How unethical for me to charge people while I learn a new process! :roll:

Hand engraving...again, never done it before, but want to learn...so i asked what I should buy, and I bought the best handpiece available. $3K for a wicked handpiece, for something I never did before, and I am slowly learning how to do it. I am still charging for what I CAN do while I learn.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...



your beard is so awesome...I wish I could grow mine back. had to shave it off when I got a job in EMS.  all i can have is a mustache now.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

Wow, lots of supportive people here it seems.:er:

So, I have been working on photography for a while (perhaps I shouldn't have said "beginner"), have taken some classes, spending lots of time with my camera learning more about it, trying to shoot whenever I can and have established a mentoring relationship with some other photographers. Also by me joining a forum such as this, I am trying to learn more and develop skills further and collaborate with professionals in the area. I am continually learning more and plan to continue to do so in the future. I don't think photography is something you ever stop learning about. 

I am not some one who just got their "first" photography kit and who plans to conquer the photography field by storm. So screw all all the self-righteous individuals who are making such assumptions. 

I actually DO know how to work my camera. I would not charge a client if I didn't. most of what I have done so far has been for free until my skills improve. So chill with the assumptions people. 
Currently working on business licenses and tax stuff and have an attorney assisting me. For those who made snide remarks about this aspect of the biz. 

So, once again. 

Simply looking for recommendations on Lighting Equipment THAT'S it; this is a photography forum right? so I was under the impression that is what you do and talk about here. I want to know what other people have worked with, what they liked and what they didn't for various purposes, ect. I want to make an informed decision and the best investment I can make with my $- for the purposes I need. Thanks for those who responded on this. 

So..... if any one would like to give their recs *on this matter,* not their pompous opinions on people trying to start out,I would be appreciative. Thanks for those who are supportive, and not chastising me for being a noob, thanks  


"Society cannot continue to disable themselves through their need to categorize people or make assumptions as to another individual's abilities." 
Evelyn Glennie 

http://katyasag.wix.com/primafaciephotos


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## cgipson1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > It is also not ethical to charge people while you "learn".
> ...



Bitter... Allow me to rephrase that.... It is also not ethical to charge people while you "learn"* the very basics!* I have heard you complain about other jewelers (who lack knowledge and skills, who mistakes you have to fix)... this is in the same ballpark!


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

katyasag said:


> Wow, lots of supportive people here it seems.:er:
> 
> So, I have been working on photography for a while (perhaps I shouldn't have said "beginner"), have taken some classes, spending lots of time with my camera learning more about it, trying to shoot whenever I can and have established a mentoring relationship with some other photographers. Also by me joining a forum such as this, I am trying to learn more and develop skills further and collaborate with professionals in the area. I am continually learning more and plan to continue to do so in the future. I don't think photography is something you ever stop learning about.
> 
> ...



several speedlights, lightstands , maybe some shoot through and reflector umbrellas, could also use softbox's.  at least 2 or 3. 
you could also go with studio strobes, but speedlights are good as well and make good backup flashes for  you bodys. 
we use a couple sb-700's with umbrellas for portraits with reflector or shoot through umbrellas. for indoors and close, nikons CLS works great. if your flashes are spaced way out, or outdoors, use radio triggers. 

also remember...since your new here, we ONLY know what you tell us. when you say "beginner"  and "starter essentials"...you cant really get all butthurt when we take you at your word and naturally assume you are indeed, a beginner.

check sites like KeH , adorama, and B&H for deals on used or refurb gear. 
craigslist in your area and ebay are also good.


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## tirediron (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Overread said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...


I would submit David, that the difference here is that you already have a strong foundation in the trade generally, and what you are doing is picking up new specialities; analagous to a professional photographer that decides to branch out from wedding work into forensic photography.  You also have an an established business, so you have the background to make informed decisions about what may help or hinder your business.


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## tirediron (Feb 20, 2013)

katyasag said:


> Wow, lots of supportive people here it seems.:er:
> 
> So, I have been working on photography for a while (perhaps I shouldn't have said "beginner"), have taken some classes, spending lots of time with my camera learning more about it, trying to shoot whenever I can and have established a mentoring relationship with some other photographers. Also by me joining a forum such as this, I am trying to learn more and develop skills further and collaborate with professionals in the area. I am continually learning more and plan to continue to do so in the future. I don't think photography is something you ever stop learning about.
> 
> ...


That does put rather a different face on the matter.  How much can you afford to spend?  Lighting solutions can range from $500 - $50,000+.  I generally recommend for commercial ("professional") use that people budget ~$5000 for a basic kit.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 20, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



John, very well stated!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

No, I don't complain about the jewelers who work I fix. I have always used it as an example that in my building there are 4 other jewelers of varying skill, who charge for poor work, and it doesn't hurt my business AT ALL. In contrast to you who complains that beginners bring down the profession of photography. I have always argued that the markets sort themselves out.  I argue that people use these other jewelers because of their price, not their skill. It's pretty much the same for portrait photography. People who don't want to pay, are happy will lower quality work, the people who are willing to pay more, want the same work done well.

As I said above, I do charge for things I am learning. I was a complete beginner at CAD/CAM, and charged for what I could produce with the skill. As I learn more, I get better, and can do more, and faster. I am still very limited in what I can do with it, and seek the help of other jewelers who are masters of the skill. They don't look down their noses at me because I am jumping into a marketable skill as a beginner, and charging as I go.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> katyasag said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, lots of supportive people here it seems.:er:
> ...




Thank You pixmedic.... I will take a look at all of that 

You are right about the "beginner" status. Didn't realize there were a bunch of photography police here though.  

All good.  Thanks again.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Feb 20, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Overread said:
> ...



No. Again, you are making assumptions about what I know. CAD/CAM is a whole different world. Something you must not know much about, to make this assumption. I also utilize forums to learn CAD/CAMing, and have from the start. 

But it seems you all support the notion that it's ok to not answer the OP's question of what studio lights she should get. I am so glad the jewelery community isn't like this one.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

katyasag said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > katyasag said:
> ...



well, glad you stuck around through it. too many of us old grumps jump the gun on the criticism. you just have to realize that there are quite a few photographers here that have spent a lot of time, money , and effort to get their business where it is and take it very seriously.  once you learn how to separate the wit, sarcasm, and dry european humor from the actual useful information...you will be fine.


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## cgipson1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Katy,

I checked out your website... and if you truly want to appear professional, you should only put your best in your portfolio. Not to be rude, but I didn't see anything that indicated professional capability. A lot of harsh lighting, bad WB or processing choices, and odd framing / composition.  

You also may find that D50 very limiting in low light situations like  indoor weddings and such.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Katy,
> 
> I checked out your website... and if you truly want to appear professional, you should only put your best in your portfolio. Not to be rude, but I didn't see anything that indicated professional capability. A lot of harsh lighting, bad WB or processing choices, and odd framing / composition.
> 
> You also may find that D50 very limiting in low light situations like  indoor weddings and such.




Well thanks for the honest critique. Guess in those regards I am still learning, but that is why I am here. 
Yeah, the Nikon D50 bugs me in many aspects. Would like to try out some other cameras at some point to get better feel for what else is out there. May invest in another camera at some point, but can't do it just quite yet financially. I DO need to get better with the D50 since it is what I have now. Been working with some others who have the same camera to get some help and recommendations and schooling with that particular model. 

I am doing a wedding in a month. It is at a ball park, so for the most part, so I think the lighting will be okay. The reception will be inside; but from my understanding the ball park lights luminate the room pretty well. I am going to go up there and do some test shots and check it out soon.


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## imagemaker46 (Feb 20, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Katy,
> 
> I checked out your website... and if you truly want to appear professional, you should only put your best in your portfolio. Not to be rude, but I didn't see anything that indicated professional capability. A lot of harsh lighting, bad WB or processing choices, and odd framing / composition.
> 
> You also may find that D50 very limiting in low light situations like  indoor weddings and such.



I'd have to agree with these comments about your web site.  Putting just your best images up is better than using all the filters that photoshop offers to try and make what you have better.  You are trying to sell *your* abilities, not photoshop.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> No, I don't complain about the jewelers who work I fix. I have always used it as an example that in my building there are 4 other jewelers of varying skill, who charge for poor work, and it doesn't hurt my business AT ALL. In contrast to you who complains that beginners bring down the profession of photography. I have always argued that the markets sort themselves out.  I argue that people use these other jewelers because of their price, not their skill. It's pretty much the same for portrait photography. People who don't want to pay, are happy will lower quality work, the people who are willing to pay more, want the same work done well.
> 
> As I said above, I do charge for things I am learning. I was a complete beginner at CAD/CAM, and charged for what I could produce with the skill. As I learn more, I get better, and can do more, and faster. I am still very limited in what I can do with it, and seek the help of other jewelers who are masters of the skill. They don't look down their noses at me because I am jumping into a marketable skill as a beginner, and charging as I go.



Ive always said that the "cheap" photographers fill a niche. its just supply and demand. We dont do a LOT of work by "pro" standards, and we still dont feel that cheaper photogs detract from our business. just because we, or anyone else, wont do a job for a certain price, doesn't mean that someone else shouldn't. my view is, if you aren't willing to do the work for cheap, why would you care that someone else is? if you turn down the cheap jobs, then it obviously isnt affecting your business model since the clients cant afford your services anyway. I suspect it is the same for many types of businesses.


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## ronlane (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > No, I don't complain about the jewelers who work I fix. I have always used it as an example that in my building there are 4 other jewelers of varying skill, who charge for poor work, and it doesn't hurt my business AT ALL. In contrast to you who complains that beginners bring down the profession of photography. I have always argued that the markets sort themselves out. I argue that people use these other jewelers because of their price, not their skill. It's pretty much the same for portrait photography. People who don't want to pay, are happy will lower quality work, the people who are willing to pay more, want the same work done well.
> ...



One of the many reasons to go into business for yourself, YOU can set the price and take the jobs you want.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Katy,
> ...



ah yes. so more better pictures just on their own, less photoshop... 
Yes, there are some I probably need to take down... but surely I have _some _good shots on there??


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## ratssass (Feb 20, 2013)

Doctors _PRACTICE _medicine..........


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

ratssass said:


> Doctors _PRACTICE _medicine..........




that is kinda scary... they "practice".....   I would hope they know what they are doing already.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

ratssass said:


> Doctors _PRACTICE _medicine..........



doctors are "allowed" to practice medicine by the state they work in. but....
not without an education. and an internship. being signed off by other medical professionals. and some form of liability coverage. 
plus, the consequences for them doing something wrong because they took shortcuts in their business practice is a lot different. 
they cant just open a clinic (legally anyway) because they can afford the equipment. 
technically, EVERYONE is "practicing" what they do, since it will never be absolutely perfect.


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## o hey tyler (Feb 20, 2013)

katyasag said:


> ah yes. so more better pictures just on their own, less photoshop...
> Yes, there are some I probably need to take down... but surely I have some good shots on there??



You may have some good shots, I don't know. The way wix displays your images is all in the same crop format, so there's a lot of chopped body parts and odd compositions.

It does look like you need to whittle some of them out though. 

As far as PS is concerned. Less is often more. I gently massage each photo I process but tend to not get into the crazy contrasty actions and whatnot. They detract from the image IMO.


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## terri (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi Katy, and welcome to TPF!    I'm sorry this thread had to go off the rails before you got anything like a helpful reply.

I am posting this because I wanted to assure those who addressed the OP with such alarm and concern over her situation: please note according to the description for this forum, she posted in the correct place, and though she may have omitted some situational details, she was well within her rights to ask them:



> *Forum: General Shop Talk*
> 
> *Looking to make your hobby into a  business?*  Already in business? This is the place for you. Discuss marketing,  pricing,  legal issues and other ideas relating to the business of  photography.




I am going to hijack your thread for one final comment, Katy, and make a general plea to some of those who were more interested in what you couldn't/shouldn't do rather than simply answer your question:  CUT IT OUT.   This forum is for all skill levels, from complete novice to seasoned pros to somewhere in between.   Show respect to all regardless of where you place yourself.   If you are genuinely concerned about what you are reading, how about a PM to the member?   Otherwise it's a ridiculous free-for-all of comments that we've read many many many times, and it does nothing to help a new member.

/Close hijack.   

Thanks for sticking it out, Katy!   Good luck with your endeavor.   Hope you stick with us; we're really not so bad.


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## tirediron (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> No. Again, you are making assumptions about what I know. CAD/CAM is a whole different world. Something you must not know much about, to make this assumption. I also utilize forums to learn CAD/CAMing, and have from the start.


  My assumptions are  based on evidence presented by you:  That is, that you run a successful jewlery fabrication business, and therefore must be skilled not only in the craft of fabrication, but in running a business as well, therefore, you would know what sort of risk/reward scenario you were entering in to when buying this equipment.  Further, you had your basic skills to support you while you learned the new specialties.  This is much different than someone who doesn't have a basic understanding or skills to fall back on.  (And, FWIW, as a hobby-machinist, I am reasonably familiar with CAD & CAM, though by no means even remotely competent with CAM).



Bitter Jeweler said:


> But it seems you all support the notion that it's ok to not answer the OP's question of what studio lights she should get. I am so glad the jewelery community isn't like this one.


One of the things that I have learned here is that many people don't know which are the correct questions to ask, so if someone asks a question about buying equipment for a business, but doesn't have the foundation in place, IMO, you're doing that person a greater service by pointing out to them that they may have missed a few steps.


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## tirediron (Feb 20, 2013)

Getting back to the OPs question... WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET?


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

terri said:


> Hi Katy, and welcome to TPF!    I'm sorry this thread had to go off the rails before you got anything like a helpful reply.
> 
> I am posting this because I wanted to assure those who addressed the OP with such alarm and concern over her situation: please note according to the description for this forum, she posted in the correct place, and though she may have omitted some situational details, she was well within her rights to ask them:
> 
> ...



well, technically we were following guidelines as per the forum description. 
we discussed marketing, pricing, legal issues AND other ideas relating to the business of photography. 
maybe it wasn't EXACTLY what the OP was asking...but still within forum guidelines. 
and we got to her question...eventually. 
and she took it like a champ! no harm, no foul.
katy survived, and will be a stronger forum member for it. 
your very welcome katy!


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

o hey tyler said:


> katyasag said:
> 
> 
> > ah yes. so more better pictures just on their own, less photoshop...
> ...



Hmmm. Okay. Thanks for the feedback, it all helps. 
Yeah, I want to do some work with the wix page and try another format for it all. So I will see what I can do in the days to come. 
I will work on taking out some crappy images and just focus on trying to produce some nice images without the use of PS. 

Love your site btw...Quite lovely.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

well, as of today....about 1,000 was hoping to have more but some other issues came up which require financial attention. 
I know in photography land 1,000 isn't much. So I am looking for good deals, but don't want to jeopardize quality of the equipment.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Getting back to the OPs question... WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET?


well, as of today....about 1,000 was hoping to have more but some other issues came up which require financial attention. 
I know in photography land 1,000 isn't much. So I am looking for good deals, but don't want to jeopardize quality of the equipment.


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## pixmedic (Feb 20, 2013)

katyasag said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Getting back to the OPs question... WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET?
> ...



I dont know what glass you already own, but for under 1k you can get a tamron or sigma 17-50 f/2.8 AND 24-75 f/2.8
both are great additions. for weddings and portraits, i would get 17-50 and 85 1.8 (still within budget) might even have enough for a 50mm 1.8
your D50 has a built in focus motor so you can get older AF and AF-D lenses on a budget.

lighting wise, used sb600's or sb700s with lightstands and softboxes.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

terri said:


> Hi Katy, and welcome to TPF!    I'm sorry this thread had to go off the rails before you got anything like a helpful reply.
> 
> I am posting this because I wanted to assure those who addressed the OP with such alarm and concern over her situation: please note according to the description for this forum, she posted in the correct place, and though she may have omitted some situational details, she was well within her rights to ask them:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the support.  

No worries... I like to think of myself as pretty tough and able to take criticism.


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## tirediron (Feb 20, 2013)

For $1000, I would look toward Adorama's 'Flashpoint' series.  While they're really geared toward the 'home studio' consumer, they're by all accounts the best bang for the buck in lighting.  For $1000, you should be able to walk away with four lights (something in the 250 w/s range, depending on application), a decent selection of modifiers (I would look for two combination umbrellas, one large and one small soft box, a couple of strip boxes of different sizes, snoot and grids, as well as a trigger system and background stand & muslins.


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## katyasag (Feb 20, 2013)

ooooh. lots of good recommendations. thanks guys. 
I will research further when I get home this evening...


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## rlemert (Feb 20, 2013)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> As I said above, I do charge for things I am learning. I was a complete beginner at CAD/CAM, and charged for what I could produce with the skill. As I learn more, I get better, and can do more, and faster. I am still very limited in what I can do with it, and seek the help of other jewelers who are masters of the skill. They don't look down their noses at me because I am jumping into a marketable skill as a beginner, and charging as I go.



  Are you charging people to do CAD/CAM work for them?  Or are you charging them for doing jewelry-related work that happens to involve the use of CAD/CAM tools? That's the critical distinction!

  If you're charging for jewelry-related work that just happens to involve CAD/CAM tools, then you are effectively NOT charging them while you learn. You are charging them for your jewelry expertise - which you just happen to be enhancing with another tool.


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## KmH (Feb 20, 2013)

Katy, back on page 1 I linked you to a competitively priced, entry-level, Flashpoint brand lighting kit, gear, that would work booth indoors and out, plus some other online and printed resources.

At that stage in the thread you had not yet stated a budget.

By the way Flashpoint is Adorama's house brand.


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## terri (Feb 20, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> terri said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Katy, and welcome to TPF!    I'm sorry this thread had to go off the rails before you got anything like a helpful reply.
> ...


mmm, _eventually_ everyone got around to it, yes.   You weren't among those this was addressed to, so don't sweat it.   

Glad to see this thread back on track.


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