# Critiques and comments



## ceeboy14 (Mar 4, 2013)

This is likely a subject which has been beaten into submission more than one time on this forum, but being relatively new to your merry little band of photographers, I want to address non-comments.

I call these  adjective and adverbs non comments because they do nothing to assist any photographer at any stage of growth - or even just stability: Wow, superb!!! Great!!! Spectacular!!! Awesome!!! Stupendous!!! and the list goes on. For me, it is especially annoying to see these non-comments made in conjunction with a photograph which clearly isn't any of the previous modifiers. Telling a photographer their shot is spectacular when it is over or underexposed, the color balance is more than marginally off or the horizon line is making all the water run downhill sends a message to said photogrpaher, "hey, keep churning out badly exposed, composed, etc. shots because I love them."

It is a simple fix. If you are going to use said modifiers, clarify as to how the shot is great, stupendous or out of this world. If you like the shot but realize there is something about it that is bothersome but not sure what it is, or how to express it properly, defer or comment with another clarifier such as, "I like the concept of your shot, the setting and how it sits with me emotionally (it makes me sad, happy, glad, wanton) etc., but I must defer to those with more expertise as to the compositional, color, etc.." Even better, take a stab at making a helpful critique. What do you like, why, what don't you like, why, what might the artist do to improve the shot and why, or I like this because...Being right isn't the end solution. Being truthful and helpful helps to guide the photographer on to better images.

I am certainly no expert when it comes to what makes the best of anything in a shot and while I may get dissenting arguments to my critiques, edits or otherwise, I am always making them with the best in mind for the person I am critiquing. In rare instances one might quote me as saying awesome or the like but if I am saying such, it is because the artist has left little or nothing to dislike.

'Nuff said on my part, good, bad or indifferent.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 4, 2013)

It has but, just as you are new, others are also and it is newcomers, both to the forum and to photography, who don't have a sensible baseline for judging photos.
It makes them feel like part of the group to actually express an opinion and to make someone else feel good by getting praise.

It is annoying but understandable.

What they are missing is the opportunity to look at why they think a picture is good or bad. 
That's the best learning experience there is.


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## runnah (Mar 4, 2013)

Great thread!


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

One can learn a lot form attempting to do C&C... but many people are intimidated by C&C especially in a group forum that will correct them when wrong. I also agree the "WOW's" and "I LIKE IT" on images that may not deserve it, are a bit annoying... as it can encourage someone to continue what they are doing wrong!

Difficult situation, in the least! lol!

ALL new people should try to C&C....  and maybe we can encourage that more. I often ask someone "why" they like an image when that is all they state... but I seldom get an answer!


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## Designer (Mar 4, 2013)

ceeboy14; I never know if comments such as yours are directed at me or not, as I sometimes make a short comment like: "I like it!", or "Very good!", mostly when I have nothing else to add, and the shot is better than any that I can do.  

I also think I can offer constructive criticism when it appears that my comments might be needed.

Please excuse my occasional short comments.


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## runnah (Mar 4, 2013)

Honestly most of the time I i just don't write anything if I do comment it is due to the fact that it an amazing photo or a very bad one.


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## mishele (Mar 4, 2013)

<sigh>


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## ceeboy14 (Mar 4, 2013)

Again, Designer, if the shot warrants it and the viewer is as well accomplished as yourself, then such a comment is fine. It is when the viewer makes such a comment to a poorly constructed image, I find I am disappointed in the response.


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## runnah (Mar 4, 2013)

mishele said:


> <sigh>



Elaborate!!!

Was that a sigh of contempt? Satisfaction? Exhaustion? Excitement?


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## ronlane (Mar 4, 2013)

Allow me to be a homer for a second, but I agree with Charlie. The new person may very well like a photo that is really not that good. But it has moved them to post something on here. If they would add why they like it, the specific part, they would learn something. I know that I have like photos on here that have gotten ripped apart, but very seldom has is been about the part that caused me to like the photo.

We are all different and things will move me to post that won't other people. Knowing the reason is something that we should all understand or think about in order to imrove.


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2013)

Well, i see another side to those comments.  Sometimes you have a new photographer commenting that likes the shot, but doesnt know the technical aspects to offer any more detailed critique. Sometimes there are already 20 comments discussing a good photos minor shortcomings, so there is little need to keep repeating the same post over and over,  yet that person may still wish to convey the fact that they like the OPs photo. 

Peoples comments or critique may not live up to professional standards,  but this is a forum where everyone is welcome to express their views on what is posted.  Even if those views have no technical expertise behind them.


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## cynicaster (Mar 4, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> One can learn a lot form attempting to do C&C... but many people are intimidated by C&C especially in a group forum that will correct them when wrong. I also agree the "WOW's" and "I LIKE IT" on images that may not deserve it, are a bit annoying... as it can encourage someone to continue what they are doing wrong!



Unless the person leaving the comment is lying about what they think, I don't see what your point is.  

If I like a photo, I'll say so, regardless of whether it meets somebody else's arbitrarily defined standards of technical perfection.  I guess I'm a rogue in this respect, in that I have no problem coming out and saying I think a photo is good even if I know that photo-forum dogma would dictate a less favourable opinion.  

There is merit to the "say why you like the photo" thing, but what makes for a "good photo" is in the eye of the beholder.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> Well, i see another side to those comments.  Sometimes you have a new photographer commenting that likes the shot, but doesnt know the technical aspects to offer any more detailed critique. Sometimes there are already 20 comments discussing a good photos minor shortcomings, so there is little need to keep repeating the same post over and over,  yet that person may still wish to convey the fact that they like the OPs photo.
> 
> Peoples comments or critique may not live up to professional standards,  but this is a forum where everyone is welcome to express their views on what is posted.  Even if those views have no technical expertise behind them.



Anarchist!       :hail:   :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## mishele (Mar 4, 2013)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photographic-discussions/169089-pact.html  Mahahaha!


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > One can learn a lot form attempting to do C&C... but many people are intimidated by C&C especially in a group forum that will correct them when wrong. I also agree the "WOW's" and "I LIKE IT" on images that may not deserve it, are a bit annoying... as it can encourage someone to continue what they are doing wrong!
> ...



We often see bad images praised by those who lack even basic knowledge.... and this encourages more of the same type of images. (kind of the reward / consequence thing).  And then when someone more knowledgeable tries to correct the initial shooter, and show them a better way... they are blown off or ignored since so many people "liked" it!  Hopefully you will agree that that is a "Point"!

We see that same thing with Facebook... lots of praise received there! Then they come here... and get C&C that indicates the image is not praiseworthy, and the shooter gets angry and defensive! (after all, how could all those Facebook users that told them they were "awesome" be wrong?)


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## cynicaster (Mar 4, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> cynicaster said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



The authorities are welcome to step in and explain why they think the noob compliments are wrong.    

Ultimately, it's up to the person who took the photo to weigh the comments from all sources and decide what to take away from it.


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## ronlane (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > cynicaster said:
> ...



That is true, ultimately it is up the the OP to decide, but if they are new to the forum and get 10 new people with WOW, AWESOME, Great shot, and the 2 more experienced members pointing out the out of focus and the wb is off and the skin tone is not right, who is that OP going to believe?


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## Rick58 (Mar 4, 2013)

I know this subject has come up in the past, and I know Lew has a particular dislike for one word appraisals, but I feel there is another side to this coin.

I'm a pretty simply person with pretty simple likes and dislikes. I may simply like a photo for what it is. I don't always need to know why. I would rather let the photographer know that I took the time to actually look at their work and enjoyed my visit, instead of moving on to the next thread with no comment whats so ever. Too many only comment on the exceptional.
Because of this, I'll continue to use my one word answers or simply click "like" if warranted. Like I said, at least the person will know I cared enough to look at the ordinary. 
On the other hand, if there is something that jumps out at me, I always share my negative or positive thoughts.


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## Designer (Mar 4, 2013)

ceeboy14 said:


> Again, Designer, if the shot warrants it and the viewer is as well accomplished as yourself, then such a comment is fine. It is when the viewer makes such a comment to a poorly constructed image, I find I am disappointed in the response.



I think I have a realistic assessment of my own skills, both at photography and at criticism, so I rarely attempt to stretch the bounds of what I am comfortable with.  Nevertheless, I recently made a somewhat negative comment regarding the quality of entries in a "mini competition" on another forum.

Most posters chose to challenge me instead of defining or defending the entrants' submissions.

It was as if nobody was willing to accept my opinion at face value.  

So posted in the mini comp thread were ten images that collectively made me wonder why they were posted.  Usually there is at least one that gets my vote, sometimes two or three, but in this one thread, none of the photographs tripped my trigger.  

I don't think I'm unreasonable in my evaluations.  For those who think I have been unreasonable, let me further defend my position by stating that occasionally I see photographs that must have been posted by a troll trying to discredit this forum and any poster who "likes" the photograph.

Your original post is what made me think of that.  Thank you.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > cynicaster said:
> ...



(Authorities?  lol! Did I hit a sensitive spot or something? )

I take it you feel like I am denigrating "Noobs"? I am not... I am showing cause and effect, usually involving those that lack enough knowledge to even attempt to make / evaluate the comments... on either side of the equation.


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## ronlane (Mar 4, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> I know this subject has come up in the past, and I know Lew has a particular dislike for one word appraisals, but I feel there is another side to this coin.
> 
> I'm a pretty simply person with pretty simple likes and dislikes. I may simply like a photo for what it is. I don't always need to know why. I would rather let the photographer know that I took the time to actually look at their work and enjoyed my visit, instead of moving on to the next thread with no comment whats so ever. Too many only comment on the exceptional.
> Because of this, I'll continue to use my one word answers or simply click "like" if warranted. Like I said, at least the person will know I cared enough to look at the ordinary.
> On the other hand, if there is something that jumps out at me, I always share my negative or positive thoughts.



But these likes you post are on pictures that are not bad or not great. They are just in the middle, which is another conversation. I don't think you like photos that have a lot of issues. (Correct me if I'm wrong there)


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 4, 2013)

Everyone has an opinion, some choose to express it in short terms, others tend to go off on long winded explanations.  There is nothing wrong with either one.  I see people giving out praise to images that really aren't very good, but they might be a picture of a cute kid and no one wants to offend.   I have found that in some cases that if I point out what is wrong with an image I do get dumped on, especially from the ones that know I am a professional photographer. I don't compare the posted images I comment on to professionally shot images, unless they are shot by people claiming to be professional photographers when clearly the images aren't of a professional quality.

Sometimes I do just like a photo, and don't have anything to add other than "nice image or great image"  Is it that important to explain why?


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## manaheim (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> Unless the person leaving the comment is lying about what they think, I don't see what your point is.
> 
> If I like a photo, I'll say so, regardless of whether it meets somebody else's arbitrarily defined standards of technical perfection.  I guess I'm a rogue in this respect, in that I have no problem coming out and saying I think a photo is good even if I know that photo-forum dogma would dictate a less favourable opinion.
> 
> There is merit to the "say why you like the photo" thing, but what makes for a "good photo" is in the eye of the beholder.



This is one of the big challenges,

Whether or not you LIKE a photo is, indeed "in the eye of the beholder".

Whether or not it is a good... Or shall we say "well executed" photo... Is really not,

Unfortunately very few people understand it and often the most vehement protests against the notion are those who understand it the least.


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## ceeboy14 (Mar 4, 2013)

*
The authorities are welcome to step in and explain why they think the noob compliments are wrong.    *

I would never make the comment that a compliment is bad, but I will say that a compliment without basis is like telling Mrs. Lincoln her butt isn't too big. It serves no purpose for the OP who is either there for a great ego boost, or is there to learn. I always assume the latter unless otherwise proven wrong. Even if the comment simply stated, "I like it, but I am not sure why. Will someone else enlighten me to its merits," it would be a vast improvement over, "Great shot!!!" when indeed it is not a great shot.


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## Overread (Mar 4, 2013)

Each person who replies to photos with a comment is generally speaking not held to any form of standard or expected level of reply. Furthermore the concept of quality and standards with regard to photography is down to each individual person.

As a result you get a variety of replies from a variety of sources, each one unique in its own way as to how the person has chosen to comment upon a persons photo. Some people come here just to be social, they are not really here to write 50 paragraph essays in photo analysis (they might or might not has the skill to do so) - they just want to socialise generally with other photographers. They might well leave a "nice photo" comment and that is the level at which they have chosen to take part in the forum. 

Others might launch into a long and descriptive reply with full explanations as to their thoughts and pointing out sources of further info on critique etc... 

And between the two are a mass of various levels of reply that can be given. 

In the end each form is valid in its own way and each one is valid on the site. We don't enforce a level of quality or skill nor a style of reply. We leave it up to the community as a collective and as individuals to decide how they reply. The best way you can help improve the quality of replies is to both lead by example and to also start up initiatives and ways to encourage others to join in. If the membership itself sets a higher bar for the quality of replies you'll find that it will encourage others to do likewise. Of course on a site that gets a regular injection of new beginners there is always a ready pool of people who need helping and encouraging in this regard. 

At the admin/mod level we try not to be too strict and to let the community structure itself - we certainly give help and do try our best to lead by example in the replies we give. But we don't enforce any kind of reply structure (indeed, sadly, in the past where stronger critique focused initiatives have been put into action they have sadly backfired significantly).


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## tirediron (Mar 4, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Sometimes I do just like a photo, and don't have anything to add other than "nice image or great image" Is it that important to explain why?


This!  I often provide lengthy and detailed critique when requested (and sometimes even when it's not), but often I see an image which I just like - there may be nothing particularily outstanding about the image, but for whatever reason, I like it.  To me, that's a valid comment.  On the other hand, a comment about NOT liking an image should be accompanied by an explanation.


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## Rick58 (Mar 4, 2013)

ronlane said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > I know this subject has come up in the past, and I know Lew has a particular dislike for one word appraisals, but I feel there is another side to this coin.
> ...



You're abosolutely right. If a photo sucks, it sucks. I'll never tell someone they have a great photo just to rub their belly. That doesn't help them in any way, except  maybe their ego.


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## ceeboy14 (Mar 4, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Everyone has an opinion, some choose to express it in short terms, others tend to go off on long winded explanations.  There is nothing wrong with either one.  I see people giving out praise to images that really aren't very good, but they might be a picture of a cute kid and no one wants to offend.   I have found that in some cases that if I point out what is wrong with an image I do get dumped on, especially from the ones that know I am a professional photographer. I don't compare the posted images I comment on to professionally shot images, unless they are shot by people claiming to be professional photographers when clearly the images aren't of a professional quality.
> 
> Sometimes I do just like a photo, and don't have anything to add other than "nice image or great image"  Is it that important to explain why?



To a fledgling photographer, I think it is exceptionally important. It doesn't have to be a dissertation on every merit, but perhaps a line or two. "I like this one. Good choice of shutter/aperture as it really enhances the detail. "This at least lets them know they are on the right track...and, if they have good sense, they will take a gander at your website and realize they are learning something from a pro.


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 4, 2013)

ceeboy14 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone has an opinion, some choose to express it in short terms, others tend to go off on long winded explanations.  There is nothing wrong with either one.  I see people giving out praise to images that really aren't very good, but they might be a picture of a cute kid and no one wants to offend.   I have found that in some cases that if I point out what is wrong with an image I do get dumped on, especially from the ones that know I am a professional photographer. I don't compare the posted images I comment on to professionally shot images, unless they are shot by people claiming to be professional photographers when clearly the images aren't of a professional quality.
> ...



Generally if the photo looks good, they have already figured how the camera works, although I do understand what you're saying.  Positive reinforcement.  As I have said to a few of the guys I play football with that generally screw up all the time.  On the chance they do something right.  "way not to screw up" that's positive reinforcement.


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## Overread (Mar 4, 2013)

ceeboy14 said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone has an opinion, some choose to express it in short terms, others tend to go off on long winded explanations.  There is nothing wrong with either one.  I see people giving out praise to images that really aren't very good, but they might be a picture of a cute kid and no one wants to offend.   I have found that in some cases that if I point out what is wrong with an image I do get dumped on, especially from the ones that know I am a professional photographer. I don't compare the posted images I comment on to professionally shot images, unless they are shot by people claiming to be professional photographers when clearly the images aren't of a professional quality.
> ...



I would also argue that sometimes the photographer needs to learn to ask for further clarification. Despite being a discussion forum many people don't approach it in the form of discussion and often just post photos - read the replies and then say nothing. Not engaging with the people commenting is a major mistake many new people to forum life can make as often many people who leave shorter replies are fully willing to spend time expanding upon their point. They just don't want to write 50 essays a day to express their view on photos - so they leave it up to the photographer to choose if they wish to ask for a more detailed reply.


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## Buckster (Mar 4, 2013)

How many of you agree with every critic and every critique of every movie, TV show or piece of music out there, even by those critics who are supposedly the "experts"?  Not many, I'll bet.

That's because it's all just personal opinion, whether given by one with much experience or none at all, by "noob" or by "expert", whether they like it or not, whether they articulate long-winded explanations or not for why they like or dislike it, whether others find those explanations valid or not, whether others agree or disagree with them.

From my point of view, it goes in every direction, and it's all subjective.  Even if something is deemed by the forum's "experts" as "too dark" or "too light" or "blown out" or "blocked up" or "too saturated" or "not saturated enough" or "(insert too X here)" or even "perfect in every detail" - it's still just their opinion, and others may agree or disagree with those personal opinions in whole or in part, based on their own personal opinions - just like we all do with the opinions on movies, TV shows and music that "expert" critics write about.

I read every comment and critique with the silent, "in my opinion" added onto the writer's words, because that's all it is, no matter how authoritative they come off as, or think they are, or that anyone else thinks they are.

That said, "Wow!  I LOVE IT!!" is as valid a personal opinion as any, in my book.


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## Overread (Mar 4, 2013)

Buckster said:


> How many of you agree with every critic and every critique of every movie, TV show or piece of music out there, even by those critics who are supposedly the "experts"?  Not many, I'll bet.
> 
> That's because it's all just personal opinion, whether given by one with much experience or none at all, by "noob" or by "expert", whether they like it or not, whether they articulate long-winded explanations or not for why they like or dislike it, whether others find those explanations valid or not, whether others agree or disagree with them.



I'm going to disagree a bit. 

Even if everything does just boil down to opinion there are identified patterns in how human opinion on artistic design and presentation is viewed and liked (and disliked). Much of this is documented in the concept of composition and more of this is written in artistic books - however it also applies fully to photography as well. The medium might have changed but the rules remain quite similar if not identical. 

As such there is cause for there to be elements which are correct when critiqued in a photo. Now of course this assumes that the photographer and the critiqure are able to see the image with the same creative concept behind it; sometimes this is the case and the critique given is based around improving the image closer toward what the photographer wanted to create and express - sometimes though the photographer imposes more of their own personal creative desires over the other and the critique can become a bit more one sided. 

Either way the key part is that effective discussion only occurs when the person giving the critique takes the time not just to point out the "flaws" but to give some explanation as to why they are flaws. Even if its only key words and concepts that the photographer can further research from. This key part of explanation if something that ideally should be given up front; but is also something that people have to learn to ask for if its not given up front.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 4, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> I'll never tell someone they have a great photo just to rub their belly.



I thank you for that, being very choosy about by whom my belly is manipulated.

I don't know where this comment fits in the discussion stream but ------

I try to give fairly dispassionate comments saying what I like and what keeps me from liking it more. Many people here, and it is easy to distinguish who, absolutely need comments that tie the viewer's response to some failing in the image.  e.g. '_The light background really hurts because it pulls my eye from the main subject._'

There are others who don't need that level of comment but do perfectly well with just a 'very nice image.'

On the commenting side, giving a comment doesn't mean that you have to understand technical issues on correction but more important that you can be aware of and articulate your own responses to the image. _e.g. I like the picture but that bright area keeps making me look there. _or '_I'm not certain where you want me to look or why that spot is important.'

_Critique is not finding technical flaws -because technical flaws neither make or break an image - but is an evaluation of why the image does or doesn't work for the viewer. 

And if the viewer doesn't know or can't figure that out, that's a loud, clear signal to the viewer that they need to do some work in understanding the issues of what makes a picture terrible/ok/good/great.


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll never tell someone they have a great photo just to rub their belly.
> ...



ill have to disagree with you on that one...a good belly rub is a good belly rub. i sure wont turn one down, im not picky.


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## Buckster (Mar 4, 2013)

Overread said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > How many of you agree with every critic and every critique of every movie, TV show or piece of music out there, even by those critics who are supposedly the "experts"?  Not many, I'll bet.
> ...


The same is true for all art forms though, and "expert" critics in all those fields disagree with one another all the time, and the public disagrees with them like crazy, validating those art forms by buying the crap out of them because they truly love them, no matter what the "experts" say, no matter what the books full of information on what elements of the arts people like and why they like them say.

That's only possible because it's not objective science or math that has a single valid answer that can be proven, written in a book, and everyone is forced to agree with it.  On the contrary, it's only possible because it really IS all subjective to each individual person's opinions; Based solely on what they like and dislike, are drawn to or not.

Surely there are pieces of art that "experts" and "the book" say you should like or even love because they meet "the criteria" - and yet you don't.  And no doubt, the opposite is also true.  That should be all the evidence you need to know that it's _all_ subjective, not just the stuff you personally disagree with the "experts" on.

Well, I can't really speak for you though, obviously, but it's enough for me to recognize it in that way.


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## oldhippy (Mar 4, 2013)

I agree with Buck. As I understand it. I like it, or don't get what this is, are also valid C&C.  Quite often myself and i feel others, dont feel to be able to critique.
At the same time if a picture has a poaitive effect on me, I'll coutinue  to say. good shot.  But never say WTFWYT..just kiddin..  Ed


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## runnah (Mar 4, 2013)

You all should be honored to get a "I like this photo" comment from me. That sort of high praise is rarely bestowed upon the lesser classes.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 4, 2013)

oldhippy said:


> As I understand it. I like it, or don't get what this is, are also valid C&C.



'I like it' and 'I don't get it' are fine but really are just the first halves of a comment and it is more helpful to the OP if you fill in the other half.

I like it (or don't like it) *because blah, blah, blah blah

*I don't get it *because I can't figure out what I'm supposed to look at/ what you are trying to show me/ what is interesting about this image*.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 4, 2013)

Buckster said:


> The same is true for all art forms though, and "expert" critics in all those fields disagree with one another all the time, and the public disagrees with them like crazy, validating those art forms by buying the crap out of them because they truly love them, no matter what the "experts" say, no matter what the books full of information on what elements of the arts people like and why they like them say.
> 
> That's only possible because it's not objective science or math that has a single valid answer that can be proven, written in a book, and everyone is forced to agree with it.  On the contrary, it's only possible because it really IS all subjective to each individual person's opinions; Based solely on what they like and dislike, are drawn to or not.
> 
> ...



But we aren't giving expert opinion, valuing something against a firm standard.  
What we are doing is telling someone how we respond to their image - and the point the OP is making is that there are better, more useful, more complete ways of helping the photographers than are often done. 
Our opinions can range easily but the manner in which we give them should be chosen to give the photographer posting as much insight into what we are thinking as possible.


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## Rick58 (Mar 4, 2013)

There were recently two interior photo's of a tinsmith's hut. I didn't give a rat&#8217;s behind if they were technically correct. I simply enjoyed viewing them as a different culture and told the OP so.
Should I have saved my breath and enjoyed the photo&#8217;s, and not comment because I didn't leave a deep thought provoking critique?


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > The same is true for all art forms though, and "expert" critics in all those fields disagree with one another all the time, and the public disagrees with them like crazy, validating those art forms by buying the crap out of them because they truly love them, no matter what the "experts" say, no matter what the books full of information on what elements of the arts people like and why they like them say.
> ...



Agreed!

 "I LIKE IT / DONT LIKE IT" does not help them to improve, it can even reinforce the current behavior / technique / or cause resentment! 

"I LIKE / DONT LIKE IT BECAUSE ....." CAN help them improve, and will help them change the current behavior / technique!


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## The_Traveler (Mar 4, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> There were recently two interior photo's of a tinsmith's hut. I didn't give a rat&#8217;s behind if they were technically correct. I simply enjoyed viewing them as a different culture and told the OP so.
> Should I have saved my breath and enjoyed the photo&#8217;s, and not comment because I didn't leave a deep thought provoking critique?



You could have said: 'I like these because I enjoy seeing different culture'
There is no deep technical issue that needs to be raised; all the should be done is tell the photographer why you like the picture so he/she can understand why you are saying what you are saying.
OTOH, you could also have enlarged on your comment by telling the photog where the picture could be better so that you could have enjoyed it more.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> There were recently two interior photo's of a tinsmith's hut. I didn't give a rats behind if they were technically correct. I simply enjoyed viewing them as a different culture and told the OP so.
> Should I have saved my breath and enjoyed the photos, and not comment because I didn't leave a deep thought provoking critique?



Depends... when a person (LEW in this case) is at a certain level of accomplishment, and not here to "LEARN THE BASICS", then the "Like" is probably adequate. 

But if that individual IS here to learn... and needs HELP and GUIDANCE,how does just a "I like it" help them?


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > There were recently two interior photo's of a tinsmith's hut. I didn't give a rat&#8217;s behind if they were technically correct. I simply enjoyed viewing them as a different culture and told the OP so.
> ...



in that particular case then, it would be up to the OP to say whether or not they are looking for learning critique or not. we do have a "just for fun" section intended for people that just want to share a picture with no expectations of any C&C. im not sure how many members actually KNOW who is at what experience level. especially with the amount of new people. I think there's an equal issue in the way people receive C&C as much as there is an issue with the way people give it. 

"proper" C&C is a debate as close to being solved as "lens filters for protection", "nikon -vs- canon", or "professional grade monitors"


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## Rick58 (Mar 4, 2013)

"proper" C&C is a debate as close to being solved as "lens filters for protection", "nikon -vs- canon", or "professional grade monitors"

Filters for protection: Yes
Nikon: Never learned how to spell that other "C" word
Off the rack HP monitor, yep, I can see my photos

Solved

C&C? I suppose it's what you want to get out of the hobby. I'm good with "Like" and "atta boy"


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Rick58 said:
> ...



Agreed! But often you can look at an image, and get some idea where the photographer is... and every forum EXCEPT the "Just for Fun" is open to C&C.... whether they ask for it or not... (At least I think that is how it is!)


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## cwcaesar (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > One can learn a lot form attempting to do C&C... but many people are intimidated by C&C especially in a group forum that will correct them when wrong. I also agree the "WOW's" and "I LIKE IT" on images that may not deserve it, are a bit annoying... as it can encourage someone to continue what they are doing wrong!
> ...



You are obviously NOT one of the "Intimidated" ones to which he was referring.


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## Rick58 (Mar 4, 2013)

This can go on and on, but bottom line is...WHAT DOES IT MATTER?.
If you (figuratively) don't like my "like", "great job", "nice photo" comments what did it hurt for me to post it? 
Would that thread be better off without my contribution?
Some people here only pick very few, select, photos to even comment on. Is that better? 
Does ignoring the noobie because he isn't up to a certain standard make a person a better forum member?

It's funny but a while ago someone ( I'm sorry. I don't recall who) posted a few photo's from an old folding camera. They weren't earth shattering, but they were just fun to look at. I posted as such.

I think now is a good time for me to bow out of this thread.


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## Designer (Mar 4, 2013)

"Oh, what *DIFFERENCE* does it make?"


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## imagemaker46 (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting when a thread on critiques and comments turns into a critiques and comments thread on how everyone sees critiques and comments.


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## Buckster (Mar 4, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> Buckster said:
> 
> 
> > The same is true for all art forms though, and "expert" critics in all those fields disagree with one another all the time, and the public disagrees with them like crazy, validating those art forms by buying the crap out of them because they truly love them, no matter what the "experts" say, no matter what the books full of information on what elements of the arts people like and why they like them say.
> ...


By "expert", I mean those who have extensive knowledge and experience with the subject, who appear to others and come off as, and are generally recognized as, persons with the level of knowledge and experience to speak with some measure of authority on the subject they are addressing.  They have been referred to in this thread as "someone more knowledgeable", "the authorities", "more experienced members", "a pro", "a person at a certain level of accomplishment" and of course every inference arrived at by understanding the implied opposite of "noob" and "those with less experience", etc. 

Example: In case you hadn't noticed it, Charlie certainly sees you as an "expert".  So much so that if you give a short, "I like it", that counts for something in his mind.  But, he's argued, others who are less accomplished need to also say _*WHY*_ they like it.



The_Traveler said:


> What we are doing is telling someone how we respond to their image


 That is to say, you are giving them your OPINION, based on your feelings, your experience and your knowledge of the subject.  There is nothing in the universe however, that says that your particular feelings, experience and knowledge are the be-all, end-all, trumping any others that don't agree with you.  Thus, the subjective nature of it all.



The_Traveler said:


> - and the point the OP is making is that there are better, more useful, more complete ways of helping the photographers than are often done.


My reading comprehension is actually quite good, and I get that.  I also read the rest of the responses in the thread and am responding to some general conversation about it all.

The OP, and some others who've chimed in, seem to me to have gone beyond merely stating in a completely benign way that there are better ways to help someone, and crossed into "this irks me and I think it should somehow be stopped" territory on the subject of short comments that do not impart much beyond praise for given works.  I am simply one of those in the thread who disagrees with that premise, and have tried to articulate my thoughts on it as part of the discussion.  My feeling on the matter is that those short phrases are just fine, and have their place just as much as some long-winded diatribe of pixel-peeping and nit-picking by someone who thinks they've got all the answers.

Naturally, your mileage may vary.

Those of you on the other side seem to want to pretend that we all signed a contract when we joined the forum that says, "I agree that I am hereby *OBLIGATED* to do all I can to help other photographers get better by giving a full, concise and complete critique by giving them *MY FULL UNMITIGATED OPINION* anytime I dare to write anything about a photo I see on the site."  It's not a new song around here.  See: "The Pact"; Another version of it that went over like a lead balloon, even though some thought it was the greatest thing since somebody said, "what if we slice the bread before we sell it?"

Hey, if that's the way you feel and want to do that, have at it.  But that doesn't obligate anyone else around here to do the same.  When I feel like helping, chiming in, discussing or just one-word-praising something I see, that's what I'm going to do.  And, hold onto your hat - I really, seriously, honestly don't care if you like it or not.  Here's another shocker - I take every comment and critique on every one of my own photos with a huge grain of salt, whether it's praise or derision, short or long-winded - even if it comes from someone around here who comes off as an "expert" to themselves or others - 'cuz in reality, it's just opinions, don'cha know.

Don't get me wrong.  I appreciate the time and effort folks make to leave their thoughts, but it neither makes nor breaks my opinion of my own work when it's all said and done.  On some few occasions, I get some new insight through that process, and may even incorporate a suggested change, but it's not the norm for me.  I'm pretty happy with my own vision, whether anybody else likes it or not.

I can say the same for the comments made to others' posted work.  It rarely influences the way I see the piece, no matter who posted the C&C.

But maybe that's just me...



The_Traveler said:


> Our opinions can range easily


Probably the major point of what I'm saying, and proof that it's all subjective so, short-quipped or long-winded, it's just an opinion in the end.



The_Traveler said:


> but the manner in which we give them should be chosen to give the photographer posting as much insight into what we are thinking as possible.


Again, none of us signed that imaginary contract you keep bringing up, so none of us are obligated to adhere to it.  That's simply your opinion, shared by some but not by all, and you're welcome to it.  My opinion is that each person should contribute just as much as they feel like, from nothing at all to book-length, and that it's no skin off anybody's nose, either way.

I think if you really believe what you're saying, you shouldn't skip over any posted images, but should do a full write-up on each, in order to best help those photographers.

In the end, it appears from your statements above that you agree with me that they're just opinions, and that's kind of the bottom line with me.  Anything you have to say about any piece you're looking at is nothing more than a subjective opinion based on the way you see it, so it has very little weight in point of fact.  Anyone at all could disagree with your assessment, see it in completely the opposite way, and be just as valid in their opinion.  You can say, "it's too dark" and the next person can say, "it's perfect" or "it's not dark enough".  There's no "right" to any of them, other than to say that each person's statement is "right" to the person that made it.


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## kundalini (Mar 4, 2013)

*Here's a little Excercise the Noobies Can Play........

*..... but let me give you a little back story first.  When I first joined TPF I had been on a several year hiatus from shooting much of anything and previously it had all been film.  Digital photography was completely new to me even though most of the basics remained true.  I was just the terms being used, the slang and acronyms took a while to set in my mind.  Hell, I didn't even know what RTFM or STFU meant with only four letters, much less what ROFLMAO was supposed to be about.

So after that bit of acclimation became more comfortable, I wanted to learn AND be a contributing member.  Yep, I started out with the "I like it"; "Good job"  and such.  But back then, there really was more support of the community with helpful advice.  Not just on my photos, it was evenly distrubuted.  I started to really pay attention to the other members that I found particularly gratious with their time for commenting on photos that were in dire need of assistance.  Then I had a thought.....


*Here's the Excercise Part.....*

Before I would read any previous comments on a photo posted for C&C, I would study the image.  I would deconstruct it to the best of my ability and elvaluate it on its own merits.  Initially, I would jot down notes on paper and shortly aftewards I would trust my memory.... always a bad move on my part.     Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments.  The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C.  The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.

So there it is.  If you're intimidated to comment on a photo due to insecurity, do it anyway, but just keep it to yourself.  Was it Mark Twain that said "It is best to be considered a fool, than to open your mouth and be proven so"? (or something like that).


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2013)

kundalini said:


> *Here's a little Excercise the Noobies Can Play........
> 
> *..... but let me give you a little back story first.  When I first joined TPF I had been on a several year hiatus from shooting much of anything and previously it had all been film.  Digital photography was completely new to me even though most of the basics remained true.  I was just the terms being used, the slang and acronyms took a while to set in my mind.  Hell, I didn't even know what RTFM or STFU meant with only four letters, much less what ROFLMAO was supposed to be about.
> 
> ...



It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool,  than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.


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## kundalini (Mar 4, 2013)

^^^ my Readers Digest Condensed Version


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## ceeboy14 (Mar 4, 2013)

Me thinks my original premise went somewhere between the absolute and the who gives a rat's patootey. I really only want viewers to understand how much impact their commnets can have on a Noob or even an old toot like me. Telling an OP a terrible shot is awesome is of no value to anyone. If you really think a shot is awesome, it only takes a simple, short explanation as to the why. That's all. In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.


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## kundalini (Mar 4, 2013)

Here's another thing for newbies to keep in mind when they are C&Cing on a photo.   *FORGET THE SELFDEPRICATION.  *Pull your bootstraps young man or woman*.  *The "I'm not a professional", "I'm just starting" and "Well, this is not my genre, but..." is a cop out.  State your business with justification and conviction, until proven wrong.  I hate pansies..... except in the garden.  There, they are hearty breeds and yield very wonderful color and texture.


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## pgriz (Mar 4, 2013)

There are several components to a C&C: reactive, analytic and prescriptive. I can react to an image with "I like!" or "ugh." or whatever. Anyone can react - no training required except the ability to breathe, see, {feel} and type. It takes more effort to think about the 'Why". Training and experience help us with the vocabulary. It also takes some self-reflective ability to piece out WHY something appeals (or not) to your emotions. And then, there's the prescriptive - if you moved two feet to the left, you may have had a better vantage point, and if you used a larger aperture, then the background would have been less prominent... The latter is very helpful from the skilled and knowledgeable, less so from the pretentious and self-important (although occasionally all four attributes are found in the same person). So we can/should contribute to the extent of our abilities and interest. When we start getting paid, we can talk about the responsibility...


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## JacaRanda (Mar 4, 2013)

ceeboy14 said:


> . In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.



Like a proctologist..sort of! :er:


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## KenC (Mar 4, 2013)

It's the internet - take whatever you can from it that has some value and ignore the rest.


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## pixmedic (Mar 4, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> ceeboy14 said:
> 
> 
> > . In the end, everyone will do as they please anyway...smiles to you all.
> ...


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## cynicaster (Mar 4, 2013)

kundalini said:


> Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments.  The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C.  The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.
> 
> So there it is.  If you're intimidated to comment on a photo due to insecurity, do it anyway, but just keep it to yourself.



As far as I'm concerned, if somebody with 6784 posts on this forum or somebody "held in high regard" disagrees with a compliment I have provided, well, they're entitled to do so.  But I'm not obligated to care.   

This is what I meant when I said "forum dogma" earlier.  Who cares if you stand out from the crowd with your opinion?  

I don't know what it is about internet forums, but you see this sort of thing everywhere, no matter what the hobby is.  

I think this article describes the phenomenon nicely: Groupthink - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## JacaRanda (Mar 4, 2013)

^^^^Love it! Can't wait to show wifey. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.   Thanks Pix.


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## kundalini (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> kundalini said:
> 
> 
> > Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments. The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C. The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.
> ...



I'm guessing that is an arbitrary number (6784 posts).  The persons that I "held in high regard" have nothing to do with the recent crop of candidates.  Most of those people do not post anymore.  So you can KMA.  

No one here today is obliged to agree or care with any other member on TPF.

I could give two flying phuques what your dogma is.  I didn't read any previous post of yours in this thread, and to be true, I never will.


I could give two flying phuques what information your links provide at this point.


I only gave an excersize of how to evolve oneself to be an active member wanting to give C&C when they don't believe they are credible.  If you don't know who to trust about giving C&C, then that is your issue to resolve.  With time, the truth rises to the surface.

Take it or leave it.  It worked for me.  Do you have a better solution?  With some sensibility on your part, I _might_ become interested.


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## cgipson1 (Mar 4, 2013)

cynicaster said:


> kundalini said:
> 
> 
> > Only after my own analysis would I read the other comments.  The more times I was in the concensus, the more confidence I had to actually type my comments for C&C.  The kick in the pants was when some of those same members that I held to high regard began to comment on my comments in a positive manner, that I felt that I actually have learned a few things about photography.
> ...



Nope... that is one thing about the forum...

Those of us who teach, are not obligated to do so! 

And those who are here to learn... well, they aren't obligated to "listen" either... that is up to them.

And those that say they are here to learn, but know it all already... well, I/we  am/are not obligated to teach, or care about them! They don't really want to learn.. and we do get those occasionally!


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## cynicaster (Mar 4, 2013)

kundalini said:


> I'm guessing that is an arbitrary number (6784 posts).  The persons that I "held in high regard" have nothing to do with the recent crop of candidates.  Most of those people do not post anymore.  So you can KMA.
> 
> No one here today is obliged to agree or care with any other member on TPF.
> 
> ...



For crying out loud.

"I could give two flying phuques what your dogma is"... What in the world are you talking about?   

dogma _noun_ 
_a_ *:* something held as an established opinion; _especially_ *:* a definite authoritative tenet  
_b_ *:* a code of such tenets <pedagogical _dogma_>   
_c_ *:* a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds 

The dogma isn't mine, it's precisely what I'm saying I don't like--I thought that was pretty clear.  But then again, if you're inclined to use phrases like "I could give two phuques" and "you can KMA", I guess you don't hold literacy in very high regard.

I'm not trying to argue with you--I'm simply making the suggestion that if one likes a photograph, they should just say so and not worry about what others think, and not worry about whether or not their opinion is in accord with consensus.  I guess you find this stance offensive, and I can't phuquing figure out why.      



> Nope... that is one thing about the forum...
> 
> Those of us who teach, are not obligated to do so!
> 
> ...



Why are you twisting things around?  Who ever said anything about not wanting to "listen" to the lessons that experienced photographers provide?  Having somebody with experience offer a tutorial or a critique of my work is _not_ the same thing as having that same person try to tell me all the reasons why I'm wrong/misguided/stupid/misinformed for liking a certain photograph taken by somebody else.  If you can't see the distinction, I don't know what else to say.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 5, 2013)

I must admit I have never seen another group of people who are more interested in asserting that they don't care what others think or how others work and are willing to internet-fight about it.

Relax, people.

What most people have been saying is that giving an bare comment without telling the recipient why is like giving someone a ten dollar bill that has been torn in half. The idea is nice but much or most of the value is lost to both the giver and the recipient.

You don't have to either fight the crowd or go with it, however you choose to comment is much more valuable both to you and to the recipient if you tell them why you think that way.

Jeez, Louise - will everyone lose that macho,_ I'm agonna do it my way_ routine; it gets really old.


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## .SimO. (Mar 5, 2013)

I personally do appreciate comments and criticism.  I love to understand why I should have or should not have done something. C&C definitely motivates me to be better regardless if it is a troll or a legitimate statement.


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## EIngerson (Mar 5, 2013)

Excellent.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

.SimO. said:


> .. C&C definitely motivates me to be better ..



Which was my point about dumping on the lot of the "mini comp" thread.  A competition, even if it is a friendly, low-level exhibition, is hardly the proper place to offer C&C.  Such comments may sway the vote, even if the comments are correct.

I had the privilege of offering one of my own photographs in an experiment conducted by The_Traveler (Lew) in which the poster included some much-needed information as to how to evaluate the photograph and which components were in question, if any.  I didn't see how that all went, but I think Lew was onto something.  

If each poster included some background information, and asked specific questions about the photo, the viewers could zero in on the most important aspects and offer valuable, pointed criticism.

The opposite of that is a posted photo with the one-word invitation: "Thoughts?"

I hate to publicly tell you what some of my thoughts are regarding such posts.


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## Rick58 (Mar 5, 2013)

Here we go again, but I am calmly curious.

I come across a photo of a nice sunset. Sunsets are a dime a dozen. This one is typical but just "nice".

So, unless I'm going to write a full critque about this "nice" sunset, I shouldn't post anything at all and pass it by?

Trust me folks, I'm not trying to stir the pot again, but I am trying to understand the reasoning.
Personally, I'd rather get a "like" or "nice" then 130 hits with zero replies just because it's only "nice"

If there's something I can add to improve the shot, I will, but sometimes it's "just a pretty sunset" and I think the photographer should know it.


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## sm4him (Mar 5, 2013)

kundalini said:


> *Here's a little Excercise the Noobies Can Play........
> 
> *..... but let me give you a little back story first.  When I first joined TPF I had been on a several year hiatus from shooting much of anything and previously it had all been film.  Digital photography was completely new to me even though most of the basics remained true.  I was just the terms being used, the slang and acronyms took a while to set in my mind.  Hell, I didn't even know what RTFM or STFU meant with only four letters, much less what ROFLMAO was supposed to be about.
> 
> ...



Ha! This is *exactly* what I did--still do quite often, truth be told, because I'm not yet completely confident in my ability to accurately assess a photo for C&C. It's not really about caring whether I'm in the majority opinion, it's more about wanting to learn. So I look at the picture and think about MY thoughts on it, but I don't post a reply. Later, I'll look back at it and see if anyone whose opinion I value and trust has commented, and see whether my C&C is pretty much in line, or if they point out things I missed.  Sometimes, their C&C disagrees with mine, but in a way that is clearly just a matter of opinion, which is fine.


I read at least four of the replies to this--I guess I shouldn't be surprised that threads like this go on and on, while the threads actually ASKING for C&C can die such quick deaths of neglect. 
I typed a long, incredibly insightful treatise on all this--but then I deleted it, because even *I* didn't want to read it all. 

Basically:

I personally LOVE any response to my threads at all. Even if it's "great pic" when I know that, in fact, it is NOT a great pic, is appreciated because if nothing else, at least it bumps the thread so that maybe someone whose opinion I value will now see it and comment.

I do get what the OP is saying, that several "cool!," "awesome," "great pic" comments can make someone think their photo is better than it is, and then perhaps when a more qualified C&C comes along that pans it, they dismiss that. 

But I honestly can't see anything that will ever change that, short of requiring moderation on every single comment before it's posted. And I'm sure our volunteer mods would LOVE doing THAT!!
People are either willing and eager to learn, or they aren't. If they really want to improve, they will quickly learn that while the "great pic" comments are a nice ego boost, the REAL value is in those who give you ways to improve or help you learn how to better evaluate the photo yourself.

My skills have probably increased threefold since I came here (which still don't really make them anything to brag about!), and I mostly attribute that to the fact that I found probably five or six people whose opinions I really valued (and one or two that I valued enough to consider them to be mentors, and pestered them with questions unceasingly.  ) and when one of those people comments on a photo, whether good or bad--I LISTEN.

And while most of the time, I do try to give practical C&C (to the best of my still limited ability), sometimes, I just "like" it. Or I just don't like it. I personally think it's valuable to know the overall response your photo has with people of varying skill levels.


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## pgriz (Mar 5, 2013)

Eh.  Life's too short to get worked up about this.  It's nice to acknowledge someone's effort.  If the image is kinda good, but not exceptional, what do you say?  If the image is kinda off, it's easier to make a comment or two.  But a true critique - that's actually hard work, and most of us don't want to work hard when we're chilling (which is when we're on TPF).  So if your image was blessed by a good critique, then call it a good day and thank the person who took the time to think and write about it.  For myself, I think I have a reasonably good grasp of the technical stuff, but I always like to check perceptions of certain images, as I know all too well that self-deception is very easy.


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## JacaRanda (Mar 5, 2013)

Well I will go ahead and name-drop: Overread, PGRIZ, Designer and TCampbell come to mind when I think of opinions/knowledge I value.  There are many others of course.  I am guessing it has much to do with the manner they chose to help or critique.


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## pgriz (Mar 5, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> Well I will go ahead and name-drop: Overread, PGRIZ, Designer and TCampbell come to mind when I think of opinions/knowledge I value.  There are many others of course.  I am guessing it has much to do with the manner they chose to help or critique.



Ooooh!  you mentioned me in the company of THOSE guys?  I'm honoured.  Not necessarily deserving of that, but I'll take it.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

O.K., Paul, that made me laugh out loud!  I'll go to my grave thinking that you were sincere.


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## The_Traveler (Mar 5, 2013)

pgriz said:


> as I know all too well that self-deception is very easy.



Hell, if it wasn't for self-deception and rationalization, I couldn't get through the day.


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## Mully (Mar 5, 2013)

I think it all boils down to respect, the photographer took the time to post something they wanted  comment on, so I think as a group we owe it to them to say something to help them realize their potential.  Not everyone is in the same place photographically so that is where respect comes to play.  I have seen many threads of snarky comments just to be a d!ck, that is not what should be expected by a community like this.  I do believe that many times I am guilty of saying the image is nice or well done because it is and really does not need a lot of verbiage to describe an image in C&C If I feel I have something helpful to say I might leave more of a comment.  We don't always have to be right but we need to show our respect for others.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> Here we go again, but I am calmly curious.
> 
> I come across a photo of a nice sunset. Sunsets are a dime a dozen. This one is typical but just "nice".
> 
> ...



Rick, as I see it, sometimes a photo can be improved in post, but sometimes it is just better to try again.  I like sunset photos as well as anyone, but unless something makes my heart skip a beat (I take medicine for that, BTW) or takes my breath away, I am not likely to write anything more than "nice" or "great shot", or something similar.  It has nothing to do with the poster, or his presumed skill level, but just the way something affects me.  

I would ask that you go ahead and post any photograph that you want to.  So what if it is not a prize winner?  Very few photographs can win a prize in a real competition, and I'm guessing that the photographer has a couple thousand not-so-great examples for each prize winner he has.

We're all in this thing for some level of satisfaction, whether amateur or professional.  

So on that sunset; make sure we all know it was taken at the solstice of Mozart's 150th anniversary in his hometown, with a P&S on "auto" while riding by a cliff on a bicycle.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> Well I will go ahead and name-drop: Overread, PGRIZ, Designer and TCampbell come to mind when I think of opinions/knowledge I value.  There are many others of course.  I am guessing it has much to do with the manner they chose to help or critique.



I do most sincerely appreciate your vote of confidence, and in the interest of full disclosure, I will offer that although I have been a photographic hobbyist for over 40 years, I am fairly new to digital and all that "post production".  Consequently, I seldom comment on the technical aspects of photographs, and instead limit my comments to the artistic aspect.  I guess I feel somewhat qualified to comment based on my formal education, namely; five years of architecture school.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

The_Traveler said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > as I know all too well that self-deception is very easy.
> ...



The "like" button has disappeared again, so..."like".


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## Rick58 (Mar 5, 2013)

Designer said:


> Rick58 said:
> 
> 
> > Here we go again, but I am calmly curious.
> ...



My thoughts exactly.


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## Rick58 (Mar 5, 2013)

Designer said:


> The_Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > pgriz said:
> ...



I thought it was my connection. I just hit refresh and the like button magically reappears


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## sm4him (Mar 5, 2013)

Rick58 said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > The_Traveler said:
> ...



I've discovered recently that anytime I comment on a thread, I can no longer see the "like" button in that thread until I either refresh the page or leave the thread and go back into it.  I don't "like" that.


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## Rick58 (Mar 5, 2013)

pgriz said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > Well I will go ahead and name-drop: Overread, PGRIZ, Designer and TCampbell come to mind when I think of opinions/knowledge I value. There are many others of course. I am guessing it has much to do with the manner they chose to help or critique.
> ...



:hail:


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## JacaRanda (Mar 5, 2013)

Designer said:


> JacaRanda said:
> 
> 
> > Well I will go ahead and name-drop: Overread, PGRIZ, Designer and TCampbell come to mind when I think of opinions/knowledge I value. There are many others of course. I am guessing it has much to do with the manner they chose to help or critique.
> ...



You are welcome. Just to be specific, you saved me the agony of trying to name a picture (my first post). With that, I get to spend hours doing anything else! 

On the other hand, Paul has caused me more agony because I can't seem to find or happen upon another park bench I could use to convey what I felt and what he suggested on the original post.  I have not given up!

Meanwhile, I have taken to birding. I spend all of 3 seconds to name it "Big Bird" or "Pretty Bird" :Joker:

My apologies if this is considered hijacking a thread.


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## Designer (Mar 5, 2013)

JacaRanda said:


> You are welcome. Just to be specific, you saved me the agony of trying to name a picture (my first post). With that, I get to spend hours doing anything else!
> 
> On the other hand, Paul has caused me more agony because I can't seem to find or happen upon another park bench I could use to convey what I felt and what he suggested on the original post.  I have not given up!
> 
> ...



There's HIGHJACKING, and then there's "highjacking".


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