# people and bum



## WimFoto (Nov 15, 2009)

i normally don't take people pictures, but these people drew my attention. for obvious reasons i think. please cc. thanks


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## Scout (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't see a pic...


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## bigcat1967 (Nov 17, 2009)

I liked it.  Can I copy it and use it for my Facebook avatar?


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## WimFoto (Nov 17, 2009)

facebook avatar? is there no end to the fame? it's ok with me.
let me know once it's up.
Welcome to Facebook | Facebook


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## Toni Marie (Nov 22, 2009)

don't forget that bum is a person too. I feel sorry for him and it makes me wounder how many people walk past him and don't do anything.


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## WimFoto (Nov 23, 2009)

,





> don't forget that bum is a person too. I feel sorry for him and it makes me wounder how many people walk past him and don't do anything.


my thoughts exactly tm. not too mention that they easily pay 5 bucks for a coffee, everyday. having said that; he does seem well fed and clean, do you think he might be sleeping one off? and therefore not allowed in a shelter?


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## bigtwinky (Nov 23, 2009)

While most shelters wont let someone who is drunk in, there are also many many shelters that are under funded and cannot remain open 7 days a week or have limited space and not everyone gets a bed.

Some shelters even require a small amount of money from the homeless person (I prefer that term over bum) to let them sleep, so if the place is packed, they will sometimes sort who gets in and who doesn't based on who paid.

They do the best they can with what they have, and will always try their best not to turn people away, but its not always the homeless person's fault for being on the street.

That being said, I do like your image.  Makes a nice statement of today's unfortunate society.

I think I would of preferred a black and white version and maybe crop it down a bit to remove some dead space on the upper left hand side


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## WimFoto (Nov 23, 2009)

i agree, 'homeless person' is better. i meant no offense.
at the time i felt very self conscious taking the photo and didn't think much about composition.
i was going to clone out the word 'trust' in the upper left. but i think it's fits the image.
i also increased contrast and sharpness and added a little red (although it doesn't show in this upload). 
thanks!


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## CWN (Nov 23, 2009)

I dunno, he looks pretty comfy and well fed... kicked his shoes off and everything.

Nice capture.


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## ocular (Nov 23, 2009)

CWN said:


> I dunno, he looks pretty comfy and well fed... kicked his shoes off and everything.
> 
> Nice capture.




Appearances can be deceiving. I've seen a lot of dumpster diving, it's very sad and I try to help out whenever I can

Bigtwinky is right. Your bw is cool. You could be a bit more creative and use a 3d font with trust hovering over the coffee shop.


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## bigtwinky (Nov 23, 2009)

Nice job on the BW, me likey.

And no, do not clone out TRUST.  Its a small detail, but adds to the image IMO.

Definatly having more time to shoot at a different angle might of been interesting.  Such as getting lower down at his level (more so that you did) and get a more down-up look to the image.  Not the easiest thing to do.


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## Eco (Nov 23, 2009)

Toni Marie said:


> don't forget that bum is a person too. I feel sorry for him and it makes me wounder how many people walk past him and don't do anything.



That's why I offer them a few dollars to take a few pictures.    I doubt I would wake a sleeping man with the same offer (I'm cheap).  

Op, nice picture, I like the B&W version better, for me it shows how life is sort of B&W.


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## CWN (Nov 23, 2009)

ocular said:


> CWN said:
> 
> 
> > I dunno, he looks pretty comfy and well fed... kicked his shoes off and everything.
> ...



Perhaps, however I've yet to see a homeless person risk losing their shoes.


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## JIP (Nov 23, 2009)

You sure this guy is homeless?? maybe he is just a regular guy sleeping one off.


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## WimFoto (Nov 25, 2009)

i am pretty sure he is homeless jip. a 'regular guy' would sleep it off at home i would think.


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## The_Traveler (Nov 28, 2009)

Could you point out the point of focus.  The entire picture seems very soft to me.


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## molested_cow (Nov 28, 2009)

Instead of turning everything to black and white, you can try turning just the subject into black and white. Play around with it, it has a lot of potential.


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## WimFoto (Nov 28, 2009)

> Could you point out the point of focus.



the guy sleeping on the street.



> The entire picture seems very soft to me



it was an overcast cool morning, could that have something to do with it ?


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## The_Traveler (Nov 28, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> > Could you point out the point of focus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



perhaps but something should be sharp somewhere.


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## WimFoto (Dec 2, 2009)

i figure i post this picture here too. i know it's not sharp, sorry for the blur but this shot was rushed, this guy moves quite fast!

i see him biking often, he always bikes to the city to go to a shelter but i know he has his own cottage or something where he stays in summers.


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## WimFoto (Dec 11, 2009)

no comments on the bike guy?

i would be interested to see your photos of homeless people, you got any?
thanks,
wim


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## iolair (Dec 11, 2009)

You shot the bike guy at 1/100s ... to freeze the action and avoid the blurring try something like 1/400 - leave the aperture at f8 but increase the ISO to 400.  Try to plan a shot like this in advance - manual focus on a point on the ground the same distance away as the cyclist will be and wait for him to go through the point where he'll be that distance.  If you're not big on timing, use the continuous shooting mode on your camera.


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## WimFoto (Dec 11, 2009)

thanks iolair. 

as i said it was a rushed shot, i saw him, turned and shot. i couldn't plan for it.

this photo was more for the novelty of finally documenting this guy whom i've seen for years biking this stretch of highway.


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## Gene1219 (Dec 11, 2009)

If that woman in white was not walking through the scene, to me, it would have been a very powerful image. The old man looks very _free_.  Free from debt, free from work and free from bills. Whilst the young beautiful people are trapped behind the fence, in debt up to their ears just to have the latest fashion or overpriced java.  

Cool capture.


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## chip (Dec 11, 2009)

in this slow economy it can happen to anybody. I wouldn't judge him as a bum as yet. many folks are trying to find jobs but unable to. after a while they just give up and become homeless. all I can say is if it weren't for the grace of God there go I. just having a job to pay the bills and having a roof over my head is something I am thankful for.


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## WimFoto (Dec 12, 2009)

> If that woman in white was not walking through the scene, to me, it would have been a very powerful image.



i agree gene1219, she was not supposed to be there. but she ads to the contrast of rich and poor, i think she is carrying a designer handbag.



> Whilst the young beautiful people are trapped behind the fence, in debt up to their ears just to have the latest fashion or overpriced java.



well said, who's really 'poor' now eh?



> just having a job to pay the bills and having a roof over my head is something I am thankful for.



here here.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 12, 2009)

ocular said:


> Appearances can be deceiving. I've seen a lot of dumpster diving...



You are right that appearances can be deceiving. I've been dumpster diving for quite a few years and I'm neither unemployed nor homeless. Just part of my recycling lifestyle. There is a huge amount of perfectly good and safe food being thrown out everyday in the US and I imagine it is the same in Canada 

These days I take two neighbors along who are unemployed with no more benefits and they can't believe they used to make fun of me. We do eat quite well.

I've also started both of them selling on ebay with some non-food stuff we find in the dumpsters.

Besides my art work, I teach people how to live simpler lives...

Very nice photo. It is true that the Starbuck customers look like they are in a jail of their own making but if the woman in white wasn't there it would leave the middle ground too empty, imho. I do like the B&W better but probably because I think that street photography looks better in B&W. Color street photography just doesn't do anything for me.

As for your bicycle guy, he definitely isn't sharp, lol. You could try and talk to him at some point and it could lead to a nice portrait. Most of those people appreciate the fact that you do not treat them like vermin. You can make their day just by talking to them and some of them have amazing stories to tell.

Thanks for posting this.

While on this subject, here's something some of you may want to get involved with. I know this one is tomorrow but there will be more and you can do it anytime you want anyway.

Help-Portrait


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## The_Traveler (Dec 12, 2009)

Gene1219 said:


> The old man looks very _free_.  Free from debt, free from work and free from bills. Whilst the young beautiful people are trapped behind the fence, in debt up to their ears just to have the latest fashion or overpriced java.



Having worked with homeless people, I can say that what the majority of homeless are really free from is happiness, health, security, decent food, clean clothes a warm place to sleep and some measure of dignity or certainty that tomorrow will be ok.

There have been lots of discussions on the web about the ethics of photographing the homeless but I hesitated to bring that up until people here try to minimize their tragedy by painting being homeless as some free-from-worry paradise that one enters in by choice.


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## DScience (Dec 12, 2009)

If the bum was in focus I think the shot would be amazing!


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## DScience (Dec 12, 2009)

The_Traveler said:


> Gene1219 said:
> 
> 
> > The old man looks very _free_.  Free from debt, free from work and free from bills. Whilst the young beautiful people are trapped behind the fence, in debt up to their ears just to have the latest fashion or overpriced java.
> ...




I agree with much of what you say. However I feel the last sentence is sort of misleading in itself. Although I don't feel that ALL homeless people choose to live such a lifestyle, I do believe many CHOOSE their life's path. Hence it's not like they grew up wishing to be bums. But we are making choices every second of our lives, and often times homelessness is a self destructing pattern of addiction that ultimately leads to one living on the street. You can't deny that there is some sort of individual responsibility in certain cases. I would bet though that the majority have serious psychological disease which is the main problem.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 12, 2009)

You have two different arguments going here. First, that they made bad decisions that got them that way and second, that they are disturbed



DScience said:


> Although I don't feel that ALL homeless people choose to live such a lifestyle, I do believe many CHOOSE their life's path. Hence it's not like they grew up wishing to be bums. But we are making choices every second of our lives, and often times homelessness is a self destructing pattern of addiction that ultimately leads to one living on the street.
> 
> *You can't deny that there is some sort of individual responsibility in certain cases.*



People might have been responsible for their own situation, that doesn't make them bad or take away from their inherent humanity. If you were in an auto accident because you were driving home and hit a patch of ice, should the medics say 'what a jerk, he should have known that it might be icy and he should have been a better driver, let's just leave him in the car.' We should take care of those who are less fortunate than we and try to help them preserve what little they have left of their dignity and humanity.





DScience said:


> *I would bet though that the majority have serious psychological disease which is the main problem.*



Your bet would be wrong.  There are different populations of homeless and the prevalence of mental disorder is highest amongst the men, particularly older men.Since the Supreme Court decided that mental patients can not be kept against their will in institutions, many long term care institutions just had to dump these people on the street and these people don't have the ability or resources to maintain any kind of ongoing interaction with outpatient care - of it is available. In Victorian England, the mentally ill were considered sub-human and the 'gentry' used to go to the insane asylum (Bedlam Hospital, for example) to see them jump around, much as we go to the zoo. 

In more enlightened times, now, no matter how odd or amusing their behavior shouldn't we accord them some dignity and not photograph them casually as an object of interest. 

The point I'm making is that everyone should be treated with dignity and respect for their humanity, particularly those for whom dignity and humanity may be the absolute only things they have left that they can claim.

Lew


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## WimFoto (Dec 12, 2009)

> There have been lots of discussions on the web about the ethics of photographing the homeless





> now, no matter how odd or amusing their behavior shouldn't we accord them some dignity and not photograph them casually as an object of interest.



it get's a good discussion going which will bring more awareness and hopefully help those that need it.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 12, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> it get's a good discussion going which will bring more awareness and hopefully help those that need it.



Let's substitute the issue of being fat with being homeless.  How would you feel if someone took an unflattering but truthful picture of an overweight you or your spouse, without permission, and posted it online and their justification for this invasion was that the unflattering image would incite discussion about weight issues?


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 12, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> > There have been lots of discussions on the web about the ethics of photographing the homeless
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I tend to agree with you WimFoto. As a PJ shooting wars and civil unrest I used to shoot people in worse situations than our homeless and I hope that it did help end the problems. 

If the photos bring more awareness of the problem, I can't see it as a bad thing. It depends mostly on how it is done, imho.

Now, a movie like "Bum Fight" (not sure of the title, it's been a while since I saw it) was quite the opposite as it took advantage of the people involved, was nothing more than a circus show. Really in poor taste and the filmmaker got an earful about it. The last I heard the two main homeless men in the movie were talking about suing the filmmaker and I hope they did.


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## Sqiud (Dec 14, 2009)

Let me first say, I like the colored photos. I think the bike dude is a real find, and I would totally stake out his route and experiment with settings and luck. You can see his speed - You can see he is an active guy - He's determined, and a real character. The dagger eye's don't detract from this candid, in fact they add a lot I think.

Secondly, I tried to keep this short, but homelessness is a big thing with me, as I have several close homeless friends, one of which is homeless by choice, and two of which are disabled. I've also sat down with about a dozen homeless in my city, and entered the community in a way.

To most people, on the street, the homeless are a mere annoyance. There's no shame in filtering out some of the crap and exposing the humanity, struggle, and personality in someone, even if they aren't aware of the photo. If they are aware of it, I personally wouldn't hit the shutter, and part of that is that I would much rather sit down and chat, and show some smiles and personality. (I bought an old functional rangefinder specifically for this purpose.). Whether they are aware or not, these photos bring awareness and illustrate the various homeless lifestyles and struggles.

Finally, be careful of who you give $$ to. Some are disabled, mentally or physically, but many you are just giving spending money for their weed/smoking/alcohol habit (yes, I do know homeless who can afford to be perpetually high, and I donate knowing that they do not NEED the money to live, but rather as a kind gesture to a friend).

Keep in mind my views are different as I am limited to a different limited set of experiences. I'm very familiar with the homeless community in my area, but homeless community are local communities, and each one is very unique. Homelessness in L.A. and NYC is a real horror compared to homelessness in boston and its surrounding cities.


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## WimFoto (Dec 14, 2009)

and i thought that the problem you, the_traveler, had with this photo was that you couldn't see the point of focus 



> How would you feel if someone took an unflattering but truthful picture of an overweight you or your spouse, without permission, and posted it online and their justification for this invasion was that the unflattering image would incite discussion about weight issues?



ok, so i am fat. the picture is unflattering. it is an invasion. and the picture is being posted without my permission.
my answer would be; no, i don't mind your are posting it to bring awareness to the problem of obesity. i would want to be healthier and i wouldn't want this to happen to other people.

if a person pays 5$ for a coffee, sits down on the patio to consume it, if another person lies down on the sidewalk to sleep right in front of the coffee shop. you bet i'll be taking a picture of it and if i think there's photographic value i'll post it on a forum.




> Let me first say, I like the colored photos. I think the bike dude is a real find, and I would totally stake out his route and experiment with settings and luck. You can see his speed - You can see he is an active guy - He's determined, and a real character. The dagger eye's don't detract from this candid, in fact they add a lot I think.



thanks squid, i obviously agree.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 14, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> and i thought that the problem you, the_traveler, had with this photo was that you couldn't see the point of focus
> 
> ok, so i am fat. the picture is unflattering. it is an invasion. and the picture is being posted without my permission.
> my answer would be; no, i don't mind your are posting it to bring awareness to the problem of obesity. i would want to be healthier and i wouldn't want this to happen to other people.



No, my point was different from that. If one is going to exploit other peoples' misfortune by taking their picture and posting it in order to do the greater good by making an editorial point, one should have two goals: some degree of technical proficiency and, if possible, making an editorial point that isn't too much of a cliche. 

My initial discomfort with this picture was that it was technically so lacking that it really detracted from any point that the op was trying to make. 

When I take pictures of street people I try to adhere to those principles.

I only brought up the issue about the real life of homeless people and the ethics of 'stealing' their picture when another poster tried to paint the life of a homeless person as somehow better than the people who were sitting drinking coffee.


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## WimFoto (Dec 14, 2009)

> If one is going to exploit other peoples' misfortune by taking their picture and posting it in order to do the greater good by making an editorial point, one should have two goals: some degree of technical proficiency and, if possible, making an editorial point that isn't too much of a cliche.



i disagree the_traveler. if one is taking a picture and posts it here the goals are entirely up to the person who took the photo. 
those goals are not to be enforced by anyone on anybody.


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## The_Traveler (Dec 14, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> i disagree the_traveler. if one is taking a picture and posts it here the goals are entirely up to the person who took the photo.
> those goals are not to be enforced by anyone on anybody.



You're right.
Those are my goals and I don't have the right to impose them on anyone.

The only thing I can do is to judge the picture on how well it succeeds in my eyes and give the poster honest feedback.


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## WimFoto (Dec 16, 2009)

> The only thing I can do is to judge the picture on how well it succeeds in my eyes and give the poster honest feedback.



it's appreciated :thumbup:


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## brianT (Dec 16, 2009)

> i would be interested to see your photos of homeless people, you got any?
> thanks,
> wim








edited because photo location moved 12/24/09


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## WimFoto (Dec 17, 2009)

thanks for posting brian t.

my eye goes to the red neon signs and the people in the restaurant.

some cropping to bring attention to the guy sitting on the sidewalk will do this image good imo.


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## brianT (Dec 17, 2009)

> thanks for posting brian t.
> 
> my eye goes to the red neon signs and the people in the restaurant.
> 
> some cropping to bring attention to the guy sitting on the sidewalk will do this image good imo.


You're right.  When I look at this photo, I should've gotten lower so the converging lines of the restaurant wall pointed to the man's head.  The only line that runs through the head is the sidewalk edge, so I cropped it to focus on the man:


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 17, 2009)

brianT said:


> > thanks for posting brian t.
> >
> > my eye goes to the red neon signs and the people in the restaurant.
> >
> ...



Sorry WimFoto, I think the original crop was better. And exactly because of your reaction. The sign is more attractive (to the eye) than the man sitting on the sidewalk. Homeless people are invisible type of thing.

The second version is a bad photo of a homeless man. The first one is a statement about homelessness, imho.


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## brianT (Dec 17, 2009)

> Sorry WimFoto, I think the original crop was better. And exactly because of your reaction. The sign is more attractive (to the eye) than the man sitting on the sidewalk. Homeless people are invisible type of thing.
> 
> The second version is a bad photo of a homeless man. The first one is a statement about homelessness, imho.


Hmm, that's a good point.  The original photo is more driven by the subject matter --  being the homeless man juxtaposed with the two people walking passed and the person inside the restaurant ignoring the homeless.  While the cropped version highlights only the homeless man, with very little contrast to his surroundings.  I supposed street photography benefits more from the subject matter than the technical advisory.  Kinda like WimFoto's original homeless man in front of the Starbucks photo might not be the most technically perfect, but the message (rich to poor) speaks more to people.

I've done very little street photography.  In fact, this homeless man photo  is the only one I've got that is decent.  But I've learned a lot just from this thread.


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## WimFoto (Dec 19, 2009)

i agree, although the crop does bring out the subject better, it's not a better version of the original. 

back to the drawing board


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## The_Traveler (Dec 19, 2009)

taken on side street in Bangkok


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## WimFoto (Dec 20, 2009)

what a face. ^

is it possible to see the un-cropped version of the soup eater?


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## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> is it possible to see the un-cropped version of the soup eater?



No, but here's another of the same guy with a little more content to it.


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## T-town photographer (Dec 20, 2009)

This was taken at a local mission for their Thanksgiving dinner. It was a very touching shoot. To see that many without anything.

Michael


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## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2009)

This last might profit from a crop to get the main point of focus off the dead center.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 20, 2009)

WimFoto said:


> i agree, although the crop does bring out the subject better, it's not a better version of the original.
> 
> back to the drawing board



In a way, it depends what the photo is about. If shooting a portrait of a homeless person, we would obviously get rid of the extraneous background to focus on the person. But this crop doesn't work very well as a portrait. It works better as a statement on homelessness, imho.



The_Traveler said:


> This last might profit from a crop to get the main point of focus off the dead center.



I agree with the positioning of the main person in your crop. However what I would really have preferred is that person in the spot where you put him but with the same amount of background as in the original to really show how busy the place is.


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## c.cloudwalker (Dec 20, 2009)

The_Traveler said:


> taken on side street in Bangkok



Is this an extreme crop?


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## The_Traveler (Dec 20, 2009)

c.cloudwalker said:


> Is this an extreme crop?



Why?


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## bhphotography (Dec 21, 2009)

interesting concept, however it looks a little soft to me


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## The_Traveler (Dec 21, 2009)

bhphotography said:


> interesting concept, however it looks a little soft to me



Does that mean that you don't like it but you would like it if it was 'sharper.'
Telling me what you see is a technical difference from perfection doesn't help me at all. 
If the picture works for you, then it works. 
If it fails then the reason may be its technical inadequacies but technique is only one part of a picture.


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