# How do you know that you have edited your photo correctly?



## shefjr (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm not sure if this should be in this section or the software part of the forum. So sorry if I'm posting in the wrong location.

This may be a dumb question but, I have no idea if I am editing my photos to the best of my ability. 
1. When editing photos is this all an opinion thing or should I be looking at my histogram more closely? 
2. When editing your photos where do you begin?
3. Is there a reference book or website that anyone could recommend that could add further insight into this question?
4. Noise reduction, sharpening, saturation, etc, etc, etc, is this all subjective as to where it's good to stop with editing?

I have an original photo which has not been edited and am going to put up a photo that I have edited. I would appreciate it if anyone interested would like to show me or explain how I could improve my editing skills. 
The program that I am currently using is Elements 10. I have shot the photos in RAW but uploaded them to flickr. I'm not sure if I can put them up in RAW form. (I'm not savvy when it comes to the internet)


CameraNikon D7000Exposure0.008 sec (1/125)Aperturef/6.3Focal Length500 mmISO Speed1000


Original,



Birds at end of october 056 original by Shefjr, on Flickr

My Edited version,



Birds at end of october 056 edited by Shefjr, on Flickr

Any help on this topic would be greatly appreciated.


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## kathyt (Oct 28, 2012)

Editing is somewhat subjective but a larger percentage is objective.  Meaning there is a science behind it.  Editing is an extremely large portion of a photographers workflow.  There are a ton of great resources out there such as books, videos, YouTube, photography forums, online classes, and ALOT of trial and error.  You will use alot of the tools inside of elements 10 such as your histogram, info panel, curves, and layers to help you with your editing tasks, but these all take time to learn.  Be patient and tackle one thing at a time and you will be rolling in no time.


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## KmH (Oct 28, 2012)

The sliders in the *ACR* (PsE 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Camera Raw/CS 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Camera Raw/Lighroom 2, 3, 4 Develop module) *Basics* panel are in the order generally recognised as the order in which to do edits.

Some edits like sharpening should be done is stages - capture sharpening (global and/or local) in ACR (Camera Raw/Lightroom), local sharpening in Photoshop, and lastly output sharpening based on output usage.


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## shefjr (Oct 29, 2012)

kathythorson said:


> Editing is somewhat subjective but a larger percentage is objective.  Meaning there is a science behind it.  Editing is an extremely large portion of a photographers workflow.  There are a ton of great resources out there such as books, videos, YouTube, photography forums, online classes, and ALOT of trial and error.  You will use alot of the tools inside of elements 10 such as your histogram, info panel, curves, and layers to help you with your editing tasks, but these all take time to learn.  Be patient and tackle one thing at a time and you will be rolling in no time.



*I understand that it'll take time to learn the programs and I do feel I have a good grasp on what all of the sliders do. The "meat and potatoes" of my question is really, is there a "general rule of thumb" on where the sliders should or should not be? Or is it all just subjective and when people C+C my work they'll say so?


*


KmH said:


> The sliders in the ACR (PsE 6, 7, 8, 9,10 Camera Raw/CS 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Camera Raw/Lighroom 2, 3, 4 Develop module) *Basics* panel are in the order generally recognised as the order in which to do edits.
> 
> Some edits like sharpening should be done is stages - capture sharpening (global and/or local) in ACR (Camera Raw/Lightroom), local sharpening in Photoshop, and lastly output sharpening based on output usage.


*
Keith, thanks for that. I never knew there was an order to which steps to take first. I actually did find someone on youtube that suggested the same thing. I'm gonna search more online so that I can find some sort of photography editing books that people recommend. *

I guess my overall big (probably dumb) question is when do I know I have gone too far with my editing. Even now typing this I'm thinking I'm a jack ass for asking because my thought is that it is all subjective. However, since I have already gone down the path of stupidity, I may as well continue walking towards that bears den. LOL :blushing:


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## jwbryson1 (Oct 29, 2012)

shefjr said:


> I guess my overall big (probably dumb) question is when do I know I have gone too far with my editing. Even now typing this I'm thinking I'm a jack ass for asking because my thought is that it is all subjective. However, since I have already gone down the path of stupidity, I may as well continue walking towards that bears den. LOL :blushing:




Don't think that at all.  I have been working hard trying to learn LR4 for about a year now.  I have learned enough through trial and error that I can clearly make my images better with PP.  However, I post them here and I get feedback which I wasn't expecting and I learn and move forward from there.  I have a friend who is a full-time pro and his work is EPIC.  He is the best of the best--you should see his work.  I can't begin to touch it.  His camera equipment is better than mine and he's got a better eye than me. But he's also more familiar with LR4 so he can better manipulate his images to perfection.

It's an uphill battle and a never ending learning experience.


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## Big Mike (Oct 29, 2012)

> How do you know that you have edited your photo correctly?


If you do it wrong, it's like dividing by zero...the world will be sucked into a vortex of nothingness...everything and everyone will be gone forever.  Or it won't. :er:

There are no absolute rights or wrongs here...this is photography, not rocket science.  If your photo looks how YOU want it to look, then I'd say you have shot and edited it correctly.  If it doesn't look how YOU want it to look, then you have room for improvement.


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## shefjr (Oct 30, 2012)

Big Mike said:


> If you do it wrong, it's like dividing by zero...the world will be sucked into a vortex of nothingness...everything and everyone will be gone forever.  Or it won't. :er:



^That made me laugh. 

Bottom line here is put in the time and practice and I'll get it figured out. Thanks for the advice everyone. 
Oh! and by the way TPF is going soft. Not one person called me out as a dumb ass or had any nasty things to say! WTF! Where did all the mean, honest, direct people go?  LOL!


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## skieur (Oct 30, 2012)

You can do a lot to a photo in the editing but the best rule of thumb is this: Would a viewer looking at your photo know for sure that it was edited?  If the answer is NO, then you did a great job of editing and did not go "too far".

skieur


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## rexbobcat (Oct 30, 2012)

skieur said:
			
		

> You can do a lot to a photo in the editing but the best rule of thumb is this: Would a viewer looking at your photo know for sure that it was edited?  If the answer is NO, then you did a great job of editing and did not go "too far".
> 
> skieur



Unless you're into that trendy vintage look with the muted highlights, tinted shadows and weird color casts. Lol

Genius!


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## KmH (Oct 30, 2012)

Did you know you can use PsE 10's Camera Raw Basic panel and Info window to check exposure values?

Do you know how to turn on/off the PsE 10's Camera Raw histogram clipping indicators?

Do you know what 'clipping' is?


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## panblue (Oct 30, 2012)

1. ...should I be looking at my histogram more closely? 
Yes. Both when composing the shot if your camera displays live histogram and also when 'editing'.
Keep an eye on all the histos, not just the luminance. It's a good start to not clip data from either R,G,B channels, if possible.

2. When editing your photos where do you begin?
With JPEGs, usually using levels tool.

3. Is there a reference book or website that anyone could recommend that could add further insight into this question?
cambridgeincolor website.

4. Noise reduction, sharpening, saturation, etc, etc, etc, is this all subjective as to where it's good to stop with editing?
When it looks nice. Just before you ruin it.


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## KmH (Oct 30, 2012)

Cameras can not show the histogram for, or an image of, the Raw file. They show the histogram for a JPEG Basic thumbnail that is embedded in the Raw file so there *is* an image to show on the read LCD.

The histogram is used to check for clipping. The camera's rear LCD cannot be used to check exposure or color accuracy, but is intended for checking composition, and by zooming into the image on the rear LCD, focus sharpness.


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## runnah (Oct 31, 2012)

Everyone is going to do things differently. I personally make sure that my photos are properly white balanced. In this case I use the tail fathers to adjust the colors. I also cleaned up some of the blue halos around the spots. Slight level adjustment.


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## shefjr (Oct 31, 2012)

KmH said:


> Did you know you can use PsE 10's Camera Raw Basic panel and Info window to check exposure values?
> 
> Do you know how to turn on/off the PsE 10's Camera Raw histogram clipping indicators?
> 
> Do you know what 'clipping' is?



*Keith, I actually did know all of this (not to sound like a know it all). I found out about the clipping indicators by accident after sparky 480 showed me how I should be looking and analyzing my histogram (he made me an awesome youtube video). I shoot all my photos in both Raw and Jpeg. Jpeg because my computer won't open the raw files. When I look through the Jpegs and find the images that I like and want to edit I then open them up using the PsP 10 Raw converter. *



panblue said:


> 1. ...should I be looking at my histogram more closely?
> Yes. Both when composing the shot if your camera displays live histogram and also when 'editing'.
> Keep an eye on all the histos, not just the luminance. It's a good start to not clip data from either R,G,B channels, if possible.
> 
> ...



*I'm going to have to look more closely at cambridgeincolor. I wasn't aware that they touched on post processing. 
"When it looks nice. Just before you ruin it." This made me laugh. *



KmH said:


> Cameras can not show the histogram for, or an image of, the Raw file. They show the histogram for a JPEG Basic thumbnail that is embedded in the Raw file so there *is* an image to show on the read LCD.
> 
> The histogram is used to check for clipping. The camera's rear LCD cannot be used to check exposure or color accuracy, but is intended for checking composition, and by zooming into the image on the rear LCD, focus sharpness.



*I was not aware that cameras only show the histogram for Jpegs. That is good to know. When I use my histogram I usually am looking for clipping. I know they say to expose to the right however, **I tend to expose more to the left. I have also never thought about looking at the focus and sharpness of an image from the LCD.*



runnah said:


> View attachment 24573
> 
> Everyone is going to do things differently. I personally make sure that my photos are properly white balanced. In this case I use the tail fathers to adjust the colors. I also cleaned up some of the blue halos around the spots. Slight level adjustment.



*I like your edit. It's vibrant. The only thing that to me doesn't look right is the white on the tail. It looks like detail has been lost from it. *

Again, thank you all for taking the time to walk me through this. I have taken away a lot of key points that people have made. Hopefully this will help me in my pp. Or, here is an idea, I just start taking perfect photos every time!!! LOL! yeah right.


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## Ysarex (Oct 31, 2012)

The one word answer to your question is practice -- not all that helpful.

You do need to devote time and study to learning how to use the tools; this is doable, but you need to be careful to get good info and not be misdirected. The Internet is 10% good info and 90% misdirection. You've found Cambridge in Colour -- that's the 10% so you off to a great start.

You want to reach the point where you can look at the photo in question and name the problems. Back up; can you name the fundamental technical characteristics of a photo that make it good or bad in the first place?

1. Tone response.
2. Color.
3. Rendition of Detail.

Now look at your photo:

1. It's very flat and has a compressed tone response -- it looks grey. You need to practice until you can see it and know you're right without having to rely on histograms and software. But always check the histogram for verification. Histogram stays up front on the screen for me 100% of the time I'm editing a photo.
2. The white balance is way off and the photo is blue. Again you want to get to the point where you can see it and name it -- you will with practice. Look at the bird feeder; it's painted black but in your photo it's blue/black.
3. Your photo could be a little sharper. This one is pretty easy -- it's numbers 1. and 2. that take time to learn.

So I look at your photo and see that it's blue and flat. I look at the histogram and get a solid verification that it's flat. The histogram is a little short of the left (black corner) but really short of the right (white) corner. Then I see trouble: there's a long thin line extending right off the white side of the histogram. I use a Threshold test to see what that is. It's the white feathers and beak of the bird. Any attempt to adjust the histogram for a more normal tone response will cause that information to clip -- gotta stay of top of that.

Color first. Does the photo have any data that I can assume should be neutral? Safe bet that bird feeder stand is painted black and black is neutral. It's a gloss black paint however and will reflect color. I get Levels and use the bird feeder to set a neutral grey point -- blue gone.

The tone is harder. If I use Levels with an RGB photo and make the kind of adjustment needed I'm going to drive the color saturation way up and likely too high and then there's those feathers and beak. I went to layers and created a Levels adjustment layer that I could mask to retain the feathers and beak. With the tone adjusted I added additional contrast and reduced the excess color saturation that came from the Levels correction.

And to finish some fairly aggressive sharpening.

Most of what I did was accomplished using Levels. I got the slight contrast increase using a Soft Light blend mode between the original and a dupe. and I used Unsharp Mask to sharpen.

Joe


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## texkam (Oct 31, 2012)

> How do you know that you have edited your photo correctly?


Um, that's why we're here.


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## shefjr (Nov 2, 2012)

Ysarex said:


> The one word answer to your question is practice -- not all that helpful.
> 
> You do need to devote time and study to learning how to use the tools; this is doable, but you need to be careful to get good info and not be misdirected. The Internet is 10% good info and 90% misdirection. You've found Cambridge in Colour -- that's the 10% so you off to a great start.
> 
> ...



*BOOM!!!*
Joe, you just blew my mind! Thank you for taking the time to explain and think out how you process photos. It's like you slapped me in the face to wake me up. It's funny every time I feel like, "Eh! there can't be that much to this." I'm quickly brought back to reality. When I first bought my camera I used to think people take amazing photos and "Hey! I can do that too!". I never knew it was more than just actuating the shutter. That part I'm great at but, what comes out at the other end is well.... LACKING (which is frustrating ). In either case, thanks for waking me up, giving me a "what to look for and kind of a how to", and keeping it positive for me.
John


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## Ysarex (Nov 2, 2012)

shefjr said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> > The one word answer to your question is practice -- not all that helpful.
> ...



Glad I could help. It's like playing a musical instrument; you gotta log the practice hours.

I think it really helps early on to learn to specifically name the problem. You can't approach it with, "This photo looks kinda off to me." Where's the "kinda off" adjustment brush in Photoshop? When you go to the doctor and say, "Doc I don't feel good." The doctor is going to start with a battery of diagnostic questions; "Where does it hurt?" The doctor will use carefully chosen words to get at your problem. We're the same; photography as a discipline has it's own terminology developed over many decades of refined practice. You want to adopt that same diagnostic terminology and learn to apply it. Then you can say, "The white balance is shifted orange. Is there a neutral point where I can use the white balance tool?"

Joe


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