# Developing film without a dark room?



## gryffinwings (Jan 1, 2019)

I am thinking about eventually building a dark room around a shed one day as I do not have a ton of room in my house, California Houses are small. Is it possible to develop without a darkroom? I am a complete film developing newbie, so I don't even know what is possible or even recommended for equipment for people that don't have the real estate for a dedicated dark room.

I currently shoot both c41 and black and white, for now only in 35mm, but I will eventually be shooting 4x5 when I get a lens and film backs for my Crown Graphic.

What I hear is black and white developing is the easiest to start with.

Recommendations to good youtube videos or websites would be excellent. Also if you don't mind recommending some budget oriented equipment or what chemicals are good, I would greatly appreciate it.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 1, 2019)

I just realized there is a developing forum, I will peruse that section as well, please move this post there since that seems to be the more appropriate place to ask my questions.


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## Derrel (Jan 1, 2019)

I've developed film off and on since the 1970's,at home, without a "real" darkroom. First, one needs a 100% light-proof, totally dark area, to load the film into the "daylight film developing tank". This totally dark area can be a window-less room with the door completely blocked off from any and all light, or with the user sitting under a blanket, or with the film and tank shielded from light inside using something like a zipped up, thick jacket. Similar to a jacket is a *changing bag*, a zipper-closure bag, often double thickness black fabric, with two elasticized sleeves. You load up the changing bag with film,can opener,scissors, and the developing tank and reel,and open the canister with the can opener, trim the film leader end with scissors, load the reel with film,use the scissors to trim the film end, and then put the  loaded reel into the tank, cap the tank, and you're ready to develop the film--in full room light! Now, tearing the film end from the spool? That can and often does cause _static mini-lightning-like_ sparks! Seriously!

B&W film developing is pretty easy, and temperature control is not nearly as critical nor as difficult, as with C-41 color.

Basically, one needs Kodak HC-110 film developer concentrate, a 1-ounce or 2-ounce graduated cylinder, a 16-ounce measuring cup, a stirring stick, some bottles (dark, 40-ounce beer bottles can be used) to store stop bath and fixe. Kodak Indicator Stop Bath is good (vinegar or water can be substituted),a stopwatch or timer or clock, and some Ilford brand ready-to-use Fixer. A decent,accurate thermometer that reads from 65 to 80 degrees Farenheit is VERY nice to have. Scissors, can opener, two-reel 35mm developing tank and two reels. Some clothes pins, a shower curtain rod, and one drop of liquid dish soap to one gallon of water to make a PhotoFlow final-final rinse agent. NOT really a lot is needed...

Freestyle Photo's last traditional,printed catalog is available as a free PDF...look through it for a terrific education in what's what for film and darkroom and printing supplies,products,etc.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/catalogs/freestyle_catalog.pdf


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## 480sparky (Jan 1, 2019)

Yep:  Dark area to transfer the film to a canister, then the souping is done in normal room lighting.  Even with a 'real' darkroom, that's how it's done (unless you tray develop).  It sounds complicated until you actually do it, then it seems 'stupid-easy'.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 1, 2019)

Derrel said:


> I've developed film off and on since the 1970's,at home, without a "real" darkroom. First, one needs a 100% light-proof, totally dark area, to load the film into the "daylight film developing tank". This totally dark area can be a window-less room with the door completely blocked off from any and all light, or with the user sitting under a blanket, or with the film and tank shielded from light inside of as thick jacket. Similar to a jacket is a changing bag, a zipper-closure bag, often double thickness black fabric, with two elasticized sleeves. You load the changing bag with film,can opener,scissors, and the developing tank and reel,and load the reed with film, then put the reel into the tank, cap the tank, and you're ready to develop the film--in full room light!
> 
> B&W film developing is pretty easy, and temperature control is not nearly as critical nor as difficult, as with C-41 color.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information, is there any difference between different brands of chemicals? I've seen Kodak, Ilford, Rodinal. I've seen a post that hinted that rodinal might be better than ilford chemicals, but no idea.

Do different black and white films have different developing instructions or is it all the same?


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## gryffinwings (Jan 1, 2019)

480sparky said:


> Yep:  Dark area to transfer the film to a canister, then the souping is done in normal room lighting.  Even with a 'real' darkroom, that's how it's done (unless you tray develop).  It sounds complicated until you actually do it, then it seems 'stupid-easy'.



Thanks, I just want to make sure I do it right, have the right chemicals, so I can have some good results.


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## 480sparky (Jan 1, 2019)

B&W film is very very forgiving. Just grab a roll of 24 frames, take some 'test' images (nothing you'd call a keeper), and have at it.  If nothing else, you'll test the light seals in the camera at the same time, plus somewhat verify your shutter speeds and aperture are accurate.

Let's see:
Dark bag (or indoor enclosed room) to transfer film to reel.  (For a while I used a bathroom at night.  Turned off the lights, stuffed a towel under the door, and put a towel over the sink.  I did that because I have a skylight in there and I was getting a little light from nearby street light)
Reel(s)
Canister
Measuring cup(s)
Developer
Stop bath (optional)
Fixer
Thermometer
Scissors
Can opener (to open film canister)
Watch or clock with second hand, or a film developing app (that's what I use... beeps to remind me to agitate).
Something like what Darrel suggests:  clothes pins to hand up film to dry, photoflo (I use JetDry), and an extra shower curtain rod in the bathtub.
A luxury item would be a film squeegee to prevent water marks when the water drops evaporates off the film.

For about $125, you can get yourself everything you need.  Less if you aren't in a hurry and can possibly find some of the stuff used (ie, camera clubs, Craigslist).  Heck, sometimes I've seen entire darkrooms for free!  You'd need to chemicals, but free gear is always a deal!


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## webestang64 (Jan 1, 2019)

Great advice above.

If I can process 50-100 rolls by hand a month in my little apartment I'm sure you can do it as well.


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## dxqcanada (Jan 1, 2019)

gryffinwings said:


> Thanks for the information, is there any difference between different brands of chemicals? I've seen Kodak, Ilford, Rodinal. I've seen a post that hinted that rodinal might be better than ilford chemicals, but no idea.
> 
> Do different black and white films have different developing instructions or is it all the same?



Many people start with using the vendor "recommended" chemistry ... TMAX films with TMAX chemistry ... etc. Eventually it becomes a personal preference after experimenting with different developers.
Vendors make datasheets with technical information on developing their particular films or using their chemicals.
Developing times will differ with different chemicals.
example: DELTA 100 PROFESSIONAL Sheet Film
or http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j78.pdf


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## dxqcanada (Jan 1, 2019)

Here's some more stuff to look at:
Choosing a B&W Film Developer | La Vida Leica!

and Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database


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## Zaphod2319 (Jan 2, 2019)

I think one item that is making color development of film much easier is the sous vide heaters. Black and white is more forgiving on the temp, but 68 degrees is also pretty close to what temp we keep our homes. You are not working at a temp much different than the ambient air in a home. With color film you maintain 102 degrees. With a sous vide you can keep a bin of water at a constant 102 with your chemicals in the water. I bought a VonShef sous vide from Amazon for $40. A video on how simple the set up is to keep your developing temps dead on.


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## 480sparky (Jan 2, 2019)

I wouldn't be interested in souping color any more unless it's K-14.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 2, 2019)

I just watched the Ilford youtube video that goes over some of there chemicals and it looks surprisingly easy, just need to have everything prepared before hand:






I've been thinking about where I would do my developing, it seems like the bathroom would be easiest, just need to cover the window and seal up the gaps at the door.

If I do that, can I use a red safelight for both black and white and color films when I take them out of the canister?


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## dxqcanada (Jan 2, 2019)

No safelight for modern film as they are panchromatic ... unless you got a hold of some orthochromatic film.
OK, for B&W paper.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file_id/763/product_id/613/


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## gryffinwings (Jan 2, 2019)

dxqcanada said:


> No safelight for modern film as they are panchromatic ... unless you got a hold of some orthochromatic film.
> OK, for B&W paper.
> https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file_id/763/product_id/613/



So, if I am reading that link correctly, it says black and white films would be okay, but not color.


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## dxqcanada (Jan 2, 2019)

Well, not really.
Just load the developing tank in the dark. This is how we all do it.
I currently use a Paterson change (dark) bag ... you get used to not seeing and just feeling.
Back in my minilab days we had a box which was easier since you didn't have to fight the bag material.


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## dxqcanada (Jan 2, 2019)

Oh, and a film leader retriever is handy ... but always keep a bottle cap opener around (ask sparky mentioned) when you need to just crack open a 35mm cannister.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 2, 2019)

dxqcanada said:


> Well, not really.
> Just load the developing tank in the dark. This is how we all do it.
> I currently use a Paterson change (dark) bag ... you get used to not seeing and just feeling.
> Back in my minilab days we had a box which was easier since you didn't have to fight the bag material.



Thank you for the clarification. I've seen a lot of Paterson stuff, didn't know they made a bag, but I've seen the developing tank, which is on my list.



dxqcanada said:


> Oh, and a film leader retriever is handy ... but always keep a bottle cap opener around (ask sparky mentioned) when you need to just crack open a 35mm cannister.



I've seen the cap opener quite a few times in videos, I'll have to get one.


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## dxqcanada (Jan 2, 2019)

... and the opener helps with getting those beers open while you wait between agitation.


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## 480sparky (Jan 2, 2019)

Just wait.  Next, you'll want a bulk loader to spool off your own rolls of analog bliss.


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## dxqcanada (Jan 2, 2019)

... the row of dunk tanks for those sheets of 4x5 ... then comes the custom built blow dryer film hanging cabinet ... then figuring out how to get that floor standing large format enlarger to fit between the toilet and the bathtub ...


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## 480sparky (Jan 2, 2019)

..... then trying to find a cheap apartment that has room for a darkroom after your wife kicks you out..........


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## MartinCrabtree (Jan 2, 2019)

Blissfully single. Lots of cameras cars motorcycles,ect. Not to mention peace and quiet. Just could never accept the possibility of having to give up half my stuff should it go south.

Yeah I develop in the bathroom and use a changing bag to load the reel. Hewes reels are the chit.


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## 480sparky (Jan 2, 2019)

MartinCrabtree said:


> ....... Just could never accept the possibility of having to give up all my stuff should it go south............



FIFY  .


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## Designer (Jan 2, 2019)

gryffinwings said:


> I've been thinking about where I would do my developing, it seems like the bathroom would be easiest, just need to cover the window and seal up the gaps at the door.


A bathroom is not as well-suited as you think.  The main thing that a bathroom has that some other room might not have is a drain. 

You will need a small work table at the very least, so if your bathroom countertop has some extra space, then maybe it will work.  Don't even bother trying to make your bathroom dark. 1.) You cannot get it dark enough and 2.) you must open film canisters in complete darkness.  So use a changing bag instead of trying to make the whole room dark. 

It is a rare bathroom indeed that is actually large enough and with enough counter space to function as a decent darkroom.  Besides; if you live with someone, I can guarantee there will be strife.

If you don't mind carrying liquids back and forth, you can set up a darkroom (for making prints) just about anywhere.  I once had a darkroom in a walk-in closet with no running water or drain.  I just carried the jugs and trays to the bathroom or kitchen as opportunity arose. 

For film, you load it in complete darkness, both B&W and color.  Load it into the developing tank, and when the lid is on securely, then you no longer need darkness.

For printing B&W prints on paper, you open and handle the paper in your darkroom that is lighted with a safelight.  The enlarger exposes the paper with a white light, but just for the prescribed time only.  You develop paper prints in trays on the table/countertop.  You will need shelves and work space more than anything else. 

For color printing, you need darkness to handle the color print paper, and the trays must be kept at a constant temperature, so having a long shallow sink will let you place the trays in a water bath to hold the proper temperature.


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## 480sparky (Jan 2, 2019)

Designer said:


> .........It is a rare bathroom indeed that is actually large enough and with enough counter space to function as a decent darkroom.  ............



For a couple years, I set a sheet of plywood on my bathtub and used that as a 'counter'.  Yes, way too low to be sure.  But functional for the enlarger and trays.



Designer said:


> ......
> For color printing, you need darkness to handle the color print paper, and the trays must be kept at a constant temperature,............



There are color print papers that can use a safelight.  And there are daylight developing systems (drums) for them as well.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 2, 2019)

dxqcanada said:


> ... and the opener helps with getting those beers open while you wait between agitation.



Beer will be a must while developing, probably the best part of the experience.



480sparky said:


> Just wait.  Next, you'll want a bulk loader to spool off your own rolls of analog bliss.



Not sure I want to do bulk loading, I just watched a video, it's intriguing idea, but preloaded film is more my speed at the moment.



dxqcanada said:


> ... the row of dunk tanks for those sheets of 4x5 ... then comes the custom built blow dryer film hanging cabinet ... then figuring out how to get that floor standing large format enlarger to fit between the toilet and the bathtub ...



A little bit over kill for me, but I will have to figure out what to do about developing 4x5 film eventually.



480sparky said:


> ..... then trying to find a cheap apartment that has room for a darkroom after your wife kicks you out..........



Will most likely install a shed in my backyard and make it light tight for a darkroom before that ever happens .



Designer said:


> gryffinwings said:
> 
> 
> > I've been thinking about where I would do my developing, it seems like the bathroom would be easiest, just need to cover the window and seal up the gaps at the door.
> ...



Ummm.... a bathroom will probably be good enough for just developing the film, didn't say it would be perfect, fortunately, I have no kids, but I do have a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom house, 1 room is a bedroom, 1 is an office with the computers, the other isn't suitable for darkroom use.


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## ac12 (Jan 2, 2019)

gryffinwings said:


> I've been thinking about where I would do my developing, it seems like the bathroom would be easiest, just need to cover the window and seal up the gaps at the door.
> 
> If I do that, can I use a red safelight for both black and white and color films when I take them out of the canister?



NO !!!!!

For most B&W film you want ABSOLUTE DARKNESS when you pull it out of the cartridge (35mm), load the reel and put it into the tank.
Use a LARGE changing bag.  While it can be done, it will be difficult to absolutely light proof a bathroom, especially if it has a window.

Printing has a different requirement, and you can use a safelight.


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## MartinCrabtree (Jan 3, 2019)

480sparky said:


> MartinCrabtree said:
> 
> 
> > ....... Just could never accept the possibility of having to give up all my stuff should it go south............
> ...



Nah I could probably pack up half of it and vacate before anyone noticed.


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## bhop (Jan 3, 2019)

Everything's been answered already, but I also develop both b&w and color. Here's how I do mine, been doing it this way for 10-ish years now, so if it ain't broke...

I use a changing bag, steel tank/reels, and do everything in my sink.

For b&w I use room temperature distilled water that I keep under my sink to mix my chemicals and use the ilford washing technique with distilled water as well.  (Fill the tank with water, invert 5 times and then empty. Repeat with 10 inversions, 15, 20, then photoflo)

For color, I use unicolor powder kit. My kitchen sink water temperature comes out around 170° so I'm able to get my chemicals up to 102 pretty quickly. I mix my stabilizer with distilled water since it's the final step.

The distilled water is for reducing water spots. I always get them with tap water..

scans with my film scanner..


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## ac12 (Jan 3, 2019)

480sparky said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > .........It is a rare bathroom indeed that is actually large enough and with enough counter space to function as a decent darkroom.  ............
> ...



I did similar in one of my apartments, a partial sheet of 1/2 inch plywood over the tub for the enlarger, and it worked out quite well.
I just sat on a foot stool while I worked on the enlarger.
I built a portable counter extension that fit over the toilet, where I had some of my trays.  I don't remember but may have used another plywood sheet, over the tub for some of the trays.

If you are resourceful you can do a LOT in a small bathroom.
In my current home, I use a small half bath as my darkroom . . . to print.
Small Durst M600, 6x6 enlarger on the toilet.
Rocking print tray or drum to process the print = minimal need of counter space.
Washing is done in the nearby kitchen.​Film developing (35mm and 120) in comparison to printing is easy.
The only issue is finding a DUST-FREE place/enclosure to dry the film.​


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## dxqcanada (Jan 3, 2019)

... sometimes a small bathroom ain't going to cut it ...


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## MartinCrabtree (Jan 3, 2019)

Of course printing is a horse of a different color.


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## ac12 (Jan 3, 2019)

If you are going to develop your own film.  The next logical step is to print your own prints.
Although you could scan the negative, then print via the computers editing program.
But to me, printing in the darkroom is part of the fun of shooting with film.  After so many decades, it is still neat to watch the image slowly appear in the developing tray.
Though from a practical and financial point of view, I only do B&W, not color.  Though I did do Cibachrome printing from slides, and that was cool.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 4, 2019)

ac12 said:


> If you are going to develop your own film.  The next logical step is to print your own prints.
> Although you could scan the negative, then print via the computers editing program.
> But to me, printing in the darkroom is part of the fun of shooting with film.  After so many decades, it is still neat to watch the image slowly appear in the developing tray.
> Though from a practical and financial point of view, I only do B&W, not color.  Though I did do Cibachrome printing from slides, and that was cool.



I quite agree, although lets not get ahead of ourselves, I still need to decide on and acquire all the gear I need for developing film first. What I will likely do is acquire a scanner and an enlarger as I do put photos online.

In regards to the enlarger, I would love to have one, I just have to figure out where I would put it.


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## Designer (Jan 4, 2019)

gryffinwings said:


> In regards to the enlarger, I would love to have one, I just have to figure out where I would put it.


That was kind of the point of my first post.  So, lessee; we have an enlarger, which has a certain footprint, you will need three trays probably close by, some storage space for your papers and chemicals, a timer, a little bit of space for your tongs, some place to hang the prints to dry, the safelight usually hangs on a wall, and maybe a paper trimmer.

Visualize that setup somewhere in your house, and you'll know if you need to add a room.


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## gryffinwings (Jan 4, 2019)

Designer said:


> gryffinwings said:
> 
> 
> > In regards to the enlarger, I would love to have one, I just have to figure out where I would put it.
> ...



Eh... more like clear up space in my shop, I have too much crap in there anyways, just need to add dust filtration and seal up cracks that light could get through.  Also need to add a small off grid solar system to said work shop as it doesn't have power wired to it, although I have been using extension cords for temp power. So space isn't quite an issue yet., although I do have a question about chemicals and wet print paper, do those need to be stored in low temperatures like a fridge?


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## ac12 (Jan 4, 2019)

I would not worry about storing paper in a fridge, unless it is HOT in your workshop.
A trick for that is to keep the paper in the house, which is hopefully at a lower temp, and bring it out to the darkroom when you print.

From experience in high school, where the photo teacher kept all the mixed chemicals in a fridge, it is a PiA to have to warm up all the chemicals from 40F fridge temp to 68-72F working temp.  However, if the ambient temp is HIGH (ie 90+F), leaving chemicals out will have them at ambient temp.  Some chemicals don't like high temp.  In that case, a fridge and water bath is used to be able to develop at a lower than ambient temp.

You also need to deal with the area around the shop.  You don't want dust going into the darkroom when you open the door.


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## Derrel (Jan 4, 2019)

HERE is a good tip (if I do say so myself) for storing B&W film developing chemicals during the warmer months of the year: Store everything liquid under the kitchen sink (film developer, stop bath, liquid ready-to-use fixer, and distilled water [for rinsing film and for diluting developer solutions to working ratio]).By keeping everything in one location that's moderately cool in the warm months, you'll most likely have chemicals and water that's at around a 65 to 69 degree temperature when you want to develop your films. Using the developer at the under-the-sink temperature is pretty easy, and keeping the stop, fixer, and washing water ALL at the SAME temperature avoids accidental reticulation of the film. One can adjust the film development time a little bit, plus or minus, using the Massive Development Chart information,to compensate for temperature variations.

Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database

As far as washing B&W film after it has been fixed: above in one of the posts is the so-called "Ilford Method". I've used a variation of that method for 30-plus years, and it's effective. Film the film developing tank with the distilled, washing water, and agitate for 10 seconds, pound the tank on the counter firmly,then let sit 30 seconds more, them dump the water out. Repeat this for five t o seven minutes. This cuts the fixer level dramatically on the first pass, and each subsequent pass, the remaining fixer level is halved. This is actually moire effective than simply sloshing running water into a topless film tank for 10 or 15 minutes...that doesn't do too much, and 1)running water has the chance for temperature fluctuation that might cause accidental reticulation 2) running water that is not filtered can have a lot of junk in it and 3) running water for 10 to 15 minutes without an actual FILM WASHER system that has bottom-entry of the water, does not reach all the film well and 4) running water for 10 to 15 minutes wastes a lot of water.


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## Zaphod2319 (Jan 4, 2019)

When you use an enlarger, make sure you have room for 4 trays. I use three trays and a tub of water, but you need the foot print for 4.

I agree creating the enlargements is the most enjoyable part. I do want to expand to scanning and printing, but as I acquire those things, time mucking about in the dark room is pretty awesome. A 25 pack of BW 8x10 paper from Adorama for $15 is pretty inexpensive fun.


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