# Beginner SLR?



## KKJUN (May 17, 2010)

Hi Folks, I've been looking into buying a film SLR. I basically wanted to just buy a cheap lens, but then I found out that a body behind that lens isn't really a lot more expensive. So, the question is; which camera is the one to buy?

I'd like to get something beginner-friendly, not to high end, but not to bad, something like the d40 of the SLR world. It should have some sort of shutter priority mode. So, any advise?


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## djacobox372 (May 17, 2010)

Film slr cameras are so cheap these days that there's little reason to go with anything but the best. You should be able to find an F100 body for around $200 used.  

If you want something cheaper, and manual focus, then an FE, FM, FE2, or FM2 are all great choices for < $100.


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## compur (May 17, 2010)

KKJUN said:


> I'd like to get something beginner-friendly, not to high end, but not to bad, something like the d40 of the SLR world. It should have some sort of shutter priority mode. So, any advise?



The Canon AE-1 and Canon AE-1 Program are popular starter cameras and 
they both have a shutter priority mode. They are also plentiful and don't
cost much and there are zillions of lenses available for them (Canon FD 
mount).


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## KKJUN (May 18, 2010)

Well, thanks for the help so far. Looks like I've got a wide selection of cameras to choose from. One last quick question: Does anyone know if there's Canon FD to 4/3 adapters (looked on ebay and amazon, only found FD to m4/3)?


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## Breaux (May 18, 2010)

I can second the Canon AE-1.  I got mine in 1979, and it's still going strong (it's my daughter's camera now).  I found it to be durable and easy to operate.  But I think you'll do fine with any old Nikon or Canon.  They both have tons of cheap, good-quality lenses and accessories available.


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## djacobox372 (May 19, 2010)

Breaux said:


> I can second the Canon AE-1.  I got mine in 1979, and it's still going strong (it's my daughter's camera now).  I found it to be durable and easy to operate.  But I think you'll do fine with any old Nikon or Canon.  They both have tons of cheap, good-quality lenses and accessories available.



AE-1 is a great camera, but watch out for squeaky/slow shutter issues--they seem to occur more in these then other older slrs. 

One plus on nikon is you could use the same lenses on your d40.


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## christopher walrath (May 19, 2010)

Minolta XG-M, XG-1, sr-T's are great choices for .$50.00.


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## KKJUN (May 21, 2010)

I guess I'll look out for a AE-1. Thanks for the info.


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## MartinCrabtree (May 26, 2010)

Two AE-1's here. A nearly bulletproof SLR with many good accessories to choose from. Pick one up with a 50MM lens and go shoot some film. Don't worry about lenses,power winders or other unneeded foo-foo just yet. Maybe a flash if you like that kinda photography. Manuals are available online to explain how to use the camera. Don't get caught up in the gimme more stuff syndrome. Spend that money on film and processing and I believe that rest will come along later.


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## Early (May 27, 2010)

KKJUN said:


> Hi Folks, I've been looking into buying a film SLR. I basically wanted to just buy a cheap lens, but then I found out that a body behind that lens isn't really a lot more expensive. So, the question is; which camera is the one to buy?
> 
> *I'd like to get something beginner-friendly, not to high end, but not to bad, something like the d40 of the SLR world. It should have some sort of shutter priority mode. So, any advise?*


It was suggested that since you're already into Nikon lenses try the N2020.  It's small, durable, and unlike most cheapies, it has a nice, smooth shutter.


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## molested_cow (May 27, 2010)

Early said:


> It was suggested that since you're already into Nikon lenses try the N2020.  It's small, durable, and unlike most cheapies, it has a nice, smooth shutter.



The N2020/F501 is indeed a very nice camera. However, it was one of the first consumer SLR with auto focus, so don't expect good performance in that regard. Otherwise, it's a very user friendly camera because it has the right balance of manual vs auto functions for a beginner. I had it for 10 years before I moved on to something better.

Also, the view finder is amazing. The shutter sound will give any mechanical fanatic a boner.


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## PJL (May 28, 2010)

I always see N series Nikon 35mm SLR bodies on craigslist for cheap (well under $100 without a lens, in most cases) if you're interested in modern auto-focus bodies. The N80 is an awesome camera if you can find one. And deals can definitely be found! I was patient on a Canon AE-1 and got it in great condition with 2 functioning flashes for $30. The Canon Elan 7 I use as my main camera I got with a battery pack for $75.


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## compur (May 28, 2010)

Early said:


> It was suggested that since you're already into Nikon lenses try the N2020.  It's small, durable, and unlike most cheapies, it has a nice, smooth shutter.



I will second the motion for the N2020.  It's one of my favorite Nikons and
available at very low cost.

The N2020 was one of the first AF SLRs and it is often pointed out that its
AF performance is slow.  One famous camera site even calls it "painfully
slow" but I think that is a gross exaggeration and I disagree.  Yes, it is 
slower than more modern AF SLRs but it's hardly "painfully slow." My N2020 
with 50mm AF lens takes about ½ second to focus between near focus 
and infinity. Most situations are much faster. In my book this makes it more 
than adequate for most photography.  It is certainly faster than using an 
MF lens, at least for me. I wouldn't use it to photograph birds in flight or a 
basketball game but it's certainly fast enough for nearly all types of 
photography other than fast action.  Granted, the AF works best with
faster prime lenses.  Using it with slower lenses such as zooms or long teles 
can bog it down.  I only use my N2020 with primes no slower than 2.8-4

Other pluses that the N2020 offers:

- It's one of the few AF SLRs that have classic controls (shutter speed
dial, aperture ring, ISO setting, frame counter, etc.) and does not use any 
sort of external LED screen. You can easily see the camera's settings even 
when it is turned off.  The controls are also easy to use by feel.  If you are 
familiar with using manual focus SLRs you should have no "learning curve" 
in using the N2020.

- The N2020 has very rugged, sturdy construction, more rugged than
most N-series models having an all-metal frame.  It's also more rugged
than comparably priced AF SLRs of similar vintage.

- The camera was made to use both AF and MF lenses and the viewfinder
has an electronic rangefinder for use with MF lenses complete with arrows
that illustrate which direction to adjust focus.  Any Nikon AI, AIS or AF 
mount lens can be used.  There is also a dedicated accessory, the TC16a
teleconverter, which provides AF ability with MF lenses.

- It has plenty of automation (AE, Program AE, TTL flash) plus metered 
manual modes.

- It accepts interchangeable focusing screens.  I like the "E" type screen
with grid lines but there are several to choose from.

- Uses common AA or AAA batteries.

- The N2020 is the only Nikon besides the F3AF that can auto-focus the
special F3AF lenses. (OK, that's a pretty obscure advantage but hey ... )


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## Petraio Prime (May 28, 2010)

KKJUN said:


> Hi Folks, I've been looking into buying a film SLR. I basically wanted to just buy a cheap lens, but then I found out that a body behind that lens isn't really a lot more expensive. So, the question is; which camera is the one to buy?
> 
> I'd like to get something beginner-friendly, not to high end, but not to bad, something like the d40 of the SLR world. It should have some sort of shutter priority mode. So, any advise?



I would look at manual top-of the line cameras from the 70s and 80s. Canon F-1, Nikon F2 or F3, Leicaflex SL, SL2, Leica R series, etc.


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## robertwsimpson (May 28, 2010)

The AE-1 has a shutter priority mode? I'm pretty sure that's not true... my AE-1 doesn't have any modes at all.


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## PJL (May 28, 2010)

^ If you have the 50 f/1.8 (or any other lens) lens with the "A" marking on the aperture setting, then your AE-1 has shutter priority mode. You have to press the button on the ring, turn it so that the "A" lines up with the f-stop setting mark, and you're good to go -- the camera will use whatever f-stop is shown on the meter in your viewfinder.


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## robertwsimpson (May 28, 2010)

I'll have to check that out when I get home... I'll be in shock if that camera has a shutter priority mode.


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## PJL (May 28, 2010)

It's not labeled as such, but it does. The AE-1 was one of the first cameras to feature a CPU.

The Canon AE-1- Basic Operations Index Page

That "basic setup" guide is actually showing you how to shoot it in shutter priority mode.


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## guitstik (Jun 7, 2010)

You can get a good Minolta X-700 with a 50mm lens at a reasonable price on ebay. They are good high quality cameras, rugged and very user friendly.
I have had several over the years and they keep going strong. I got my daughter an X-370 and it is a work horse.


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## compur (Jun 7, 2010)

robertwsimpson said:


> I'll have to check that out when I get home... I'll be in shock if that camera has a shutter priority mode.



I suggest you sit down while checking it out.


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## KKJUN (Jun 10, 2010)

damn, just checked this thread again after a rather long time. So many comments! thank you guys for helping me out and giving me so many opinions. I'll be trying to get a n2020, because I still haven't found a fd-to-4/3-adapter. Again, thanks for the great supportk, and one last question: The n2020 uses the f-mount, right?


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## usayit (Jun 10, 2010)

djacobox372 said:


> AE-1 is a great camera, but watch out for squeaky/slow shutter issues--they seem to occur more in these then other older slrs.



AE-1 is old enough that almost all of them (if not CLA'd or repaired recently) suffer from this.   My recent experience is that 4/5 are developing slow shutter issues.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 10, 2010)

usayit said:


> djacobox372 said:
> 
> 
> > AE-1 is a great camera, but watch out for squeaky/slow shutter issues--they seem to occur more in these then other older slrs.
> ...



Given the depressed prices of many former top-line models, it hardly seems worthwhile to bother with the low end stuff.


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## usayit (Jun 10, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Given the depressed prices of many former top-line models, it hardly seems worthwhile to bother with the low end stuff.



But even former high end can cost a pretty penny when a CLA is involved... that is unless you have the resources to get it done cheaply.   There's not many places that still do that type of work inexpensively.  This is the reason why I would proceed with caution.  

Fortunately for me, one of the good business relationships I have developed in the years past involves 4 older chinese gentlemen in an old hole-in-the-wall with more than 100 years accumulated experience in repairing old cameras.  All my stuff, including very expensive Leica stuff that would require a trip to Solms, Germany have been repaired by them fairly inexpensively.

But I digress.....

Here's something no one has pointed out....

You can actually buy not-yet-classics cheaper than many of the "classic" mechanical cameras mentioned.  Their younger age and updated designs (electronic shutters) make them ideal for consideration (age and lack of use alone will kill older cloth shutters).   Furthermore, they are not considered classics, collectables, nor sought after for replacement parts... you don't have to compete with others on price.  

Example...  Canon EOS A2E, which was considered a wonderful camera of its time, goes for between under $40 bucks.  Want to take advantage of FD lenses instead?  The last FD body the T90 which is the top of the line professional body goes for about $50-100.  Heck one of my all time favorites the Elan II (because of the dial layouts, eye-control and red focus assist) is a consumer body going for $10.

Many of the suggestions will come with nostalgic reasons.... unfortunately the popularity of these models also drives up price and the older the body the more likely it will require a CLA.


In summary... looking for a cheap user?  Look towards the less popular younger cameras.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 11, 2010)

usayit said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > Given the depressed prices of many former top-line models, it hardly seems worthwhile to bother with the low end stuff.
> ...



I was thinking of cameras such as Canon F-1 New, Pentax LX, Nikon F2, Minolta XK, Leicaflex SL, Leica R3, etc.

Made me chuckle: was watching a film on TCM this morning involving an underwater excavation of some ancient Greek site by a team led by Jacques Cousteau. They brought up some antiquities and were photographing them...with a _Miranda_! :lmao:







Often overlooked are Alpas. The Alpa 10d was magnificent:


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## guitstik (Jun 11, 2010)

Petraio, you may be useful to keep around if we can keep you off of hot topics. Did you actually chuckle? Hmmm, might be human after all.


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## compur (Jun 11, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Made me chuckle: was watching a film on TCM this morning involving an underwater excavation of some ancient Greek site by a team led by Jacques Cousteau. They brought up some antiquities and were photographing them...with a _Miranda_! :lmao:



I have a Miranda Sensorex EE outfit with 3 lenses which I use occasionally.
It's a fine camera with spot & average metering, auto & manual exposure
modes, removable prism, and quiet shutter.  It's a beautifully made camera 
with excellent lenses.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 11, 2010)

guitstik said:


> Petraio, you may be useful to keep around if we can keep you off of hot topics. Did you actually chuckle? Hmmm, might be human after all.



Well at least Miranda was better than Petri....

Now remember, I am not a 'photographer' and do not belong to the "photographer culture". Think of me as a philosopher who knows a lot about photography and we'll all get along fine.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 11, 2010)

compur said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > Made me chuckle: was watching a film on TCM this morning involving an underwater excavation of some ancient Greek site by a team led by Jacques Cousteau. They brought up some antiquities and were photographing them...with a _Miranda_! :lmao:
> ...



They were OK, just never very popular. At the time, Canon was hardly any different. Luck of the draw, I guess.


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## usayit (Jun 11, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> I was thinking of cameras such as Canon F-1 New, Pentax LX, Nikon F2, Minolta XK, Leicaflex SL, Leica R3, etc.



Leica R series - I would vote against..   Glass is relatively expensive due to the Leica branding and the collectors market.

Leicaflex SL - For the same reason above.  

Pentax LX - Great! camera!  I have one.  Probably one the best made camera of its time.  A nice balance between HIGH quality, features, and size.  They are built like tanks.  One problem.... again... very expensive.  A good conditioned one still can fetch up to $300 USD.  The LX 2000 is an absolutely stunning.  I want one for my collection but I can't justify the price.  I don't see numerous LX's on the used market... which again drives up price.  

The Canon F-1 is going to be a bit expensive as well... up to $200.  

I'm not so sure with the Nikon and Minolta.  Nikon glass tends to hold their value well because the current backwards compatibility with the current DSLRs from Nikon.  


The OP mentioned cheap and beginner..... I don't think "old" is going to work because of the possible cost of CLA and maintenance.  I don't think high end will bring enough value to the table for a beginner.   Now throw "old" and "high-end" together doesn't make a good beginner user camera either.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 11, 2010)

usayit said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking of cameras such as Canon F-1 New, Pentax LX, Nikon F2, Minolta XK, Leicaflex SL, Leica R3, etc.
> ...



Leicaflex SLs and 2-cam lenses are (or have been) relatively inexpensive. The point is they'll last indefinitely.

KEH has SL bodies starting at $144:

Leica R Camera Bodies - KEH.com

Lenses are here:

Leica R Fixed Focal Length Lenses - KEH.com

And I disagree altogether about getting the old high-end stuff. That's exactly what I would recommend. It's still far far cheaper than digital gear and lenses of comparable quality. I have had my Leicaflex stuff for 35 years. I had the shutter worked on once during that time, after it was damaged by an impact.


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## guitstik (Jun 11, 2010)

I have a good Minolta X-370 that is a spare in good condition with a 50mm lens that I would sell for a bout $50.00+ shipping if the OP is interested. These are based on the XG bodies and are good beginner/intermediate cameras.  I could post some pictures taken with it.


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## KKJUN (Jun 13, 2010)

That would be really awesome! I'm definately interested. Are lenses for Minoltas expensive?


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## usayit (Jun 13, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> Lenses are here:
> 
> Leica R Fixed Focal Length Lenses - KEH.com



Have you looked at the prices for R lenses?  $465 for a 50mm f/2 isn't exactly considered the price range of what most people consider a "beginner slr".



> And I disagree altogether about getting the old high-end stuff. That's exactly what I would recommend. It's still far far cheaper than digital gear and lenses of comparable quality. I have had my Leicaflex stuff for 35 years. I had the shutter worked on once during that time, after it was damaged by an impact.



You don't compare old gear to modern lenses and digital gear then end with "see its cheaper".  That's just dumb and has no basis.  I have old glass that cost several times the cost of modern "digital" glass.  Some are better and some are not.  There is no basis here unless you understand the market is influenced by more than just age.  The Collectors market is very strange.... and often doesn't make sense.  1950s Summicron in EX condition is almost $1000 for example.  An old 85mm f/1.9 Takumar are fetching $200-300.. because they are difficult to find.  Both are valued highly in the used market BUT neither have the advantages of modern multilayer coatings.  The list goes on and on. 

For a beginner looking for a user camera, you are looking for price versus value/quality.  

Old high end stuff == more than most would look for in a beginner User.  Value it brings to the table is often not worth it.  CLA goes incrementally high.  

Old classics == priced higher because of parts/collectibility.  Even items that are no longer functioning.

Really old stuff == CLA prices out weigh the cost of buy in into the system.



The offer of a minolta X-370 as posted by another is an example of what I was stating.   
* Its a 1970s camera... not too old that a CLA is immediately assumed
* No cloth shutter
* Lenses are known to be good
* NOT THE HIGH END.... as to demand the premium of one RELATIVE to other cameras of similar make/model/age.  Its a cheaper version of the X-700.
* Lenses are not currently holding value because of current DSLR (sony) popularity/compatibility.
* Not considered a popular classic and does not attract collectors.
* Parts are not highly prized.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 13, 2010)

usayit said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > Lenses are here:
> ...



1970s Leica R stuff would still be my recommendation if you want a system you can keep. It still has lots of life left, the quality is superb, and often better than anything you can get today, for much less money.


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## guitstik (Jun 13, 2010)

PM sent


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## usayit (Jun 13, 2010)

Petraio Prime said:


> 1970s Leica R stuff would still be my recommendation if you want a system you can keep. It still has lots of life left, the quality is superb, and often better than anything you can get today, for much less money.



If you will just ignore everything including budget and common sense..... and get your head stuck around the Leica branding.

then

The better choice would actually be the Leica M.  Faster/easier focusing mechanism.  More compact.  Much more reliable than the Leica R bodies.  Modern lenses are still available.  Old optics are still better than R.  Upgrade path to digital (R-D1, M8, M9, even m4/3 and Leica has confirmed future in the M-mount.) 

You can hold your breath until you are blue... and keep repeating "Leica R".   The R system is a dead end.  I enjoyed the system (R9 + DMR sold to fund more M-mount stuff) but commercially Leica screwed up.   

* R3, R4, R6 are based on Minolta bodies in exchange for Autofocus technology they developed.  DOH!  Bang Head.  Minolta continues to make a big splash with the first commercially successful 35mm autofocus camera maxxum 7000 (I have one of those as well).   Success that could have been Leica's.
* R8, R9 - ergonomically a nightmare.  Big and heavy and no clear advantage over the M-mount system.  Yes.. You can go telephoto the R system but DOH!  the competitors have Autofocus!.  oh well.. there goes the sports market.
* DMR+R8+R9.  Wonderful...  Make a big body even bigger with no future source for that darn battery.  Users spent $20K+ on these systems only to be "abandoned" a few years later.  Way to go!



and before you call me a Leica hater... you should look closely at my avatar.


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## stephen.2308 (Jun 13, 2010)

Minolta XG-M all the way. =]


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## j-dogg (Jun 13, 2010)

Nikkormat FT. Full manual, heavy, metal and no electronics. Made in the 60's, took me 5 minutes to figure out how to load film into it, and I've been shooting 35mm for literally a week.

Any of the 80's Nikon F-series (FG, FM3, F3, EM, etc.) as well. They have some neat automatic this and that toys but still retain the full-manual functions. A couple are full manual only. The FG has two automatic modes and a full manual mode.

Also I like the film spool on the Nikons the way it grabs the end of the film when you load it.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 14, 2010)

usayit said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > 1970s Leica R stuff would still be my recommendation if you want a system you can keep. It still has lots of life left, the quality is superb, and often better than anything you can get today, for much less money.
> ...




I own Leicaflex SL2 bodies and six lenses...and plan on buying more. Nothing else comes close. I started with a used Leicaflex SL and a 90mm Elmarit-R in 1971 and never looked back.


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## Petraio Prime (Jun 14, 2010)

usayit said:


> Petraio Prime said:
> 
> 
> > 1970s Leica R stuff would still be my recommendation if you want a system you can keep. It still has lots of life left, the quality is superb, and often better than anything you can get today, for much less money.
> ...




I own Lecaflex SL2 bodies and six lenses...and plan on buying more. Nothing else comes close.


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