# Clients editing your photos.



## TheCameraLady (May 5, 2013)

I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
And I am tagged in it so people think I did that.
talk about ruining a reputation.


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## 480sparky (May 5, 2013)

"Said" should have been replaced with a written contract.

Hindsight is 20/20.  Perhaps you should stop giving your work away.


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## pixmedic (May 5, 2013)

480sparky said:


> "Said" should have been replaced with a written contract.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20.  Perhaps you should stop giving your work away.



+1 to that. did you have a contract? you should have a contract for every job that spells out what the client can and can not do with their photos. 
at this point? live and learn. without a contract theres really nothing you can do but HOPE she does what you ask.


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## Overread (May 5, 2013)

Honestly these days editing software and facebook are so common that if you give your clients digital images you should expect them appear on facebook and likely with editing (done badly by the client with the most terribly modern clichés of editing ). If you don't want that to happen you've got to educate your client and have a firm formal contract (which you go through with them over the important details, not just hand to them as many will just sign and not even read or understand). 


The other way around it is to not provide digital images and provide prints instead, with digital images being an extra cost and in varied types (eg no reason you can't prepare them "Facebook ready" images with a proper size and aspect that just needs to be uploaded). Again you'll still need to have the contract and agreement with them with regard to the usage for digital, but at least by making it an optional part you make it not only something to sell, but also something to discuss; giving you the moment to go through the contract.


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## hirejn (May 5, 2013)

I simply don't provide digital copies for portrait sessions. I can't make money on it. Some people can. If you have nothing in writing, the client has no reason to do what you say. For weddings I provide images with a use license. I charge enough for that. Most people obey the license. If you have a license and they violate it, you can politely refuse further service to them until they obey the terms. You probably don't want to take legal action though as word will get around and that's bad for business.


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## tirediron (May 5, 2013)

I provide a written contract as well as a 'Read-me' contract on a disc whenever I provide digital deliverables.  Unfortunately, these days, 99% of clients want at least some, if not all of their product in electronic format, so this problem is going to keep getting worse.  One thing I do is explain to people WHY I don't want them to edit my work, telling them that it then doesn't reflect the sort of product that I would provide if they hired me, and that will cost me money and reputation (I don't think it hurts any to exaggerate this point a bit).  I also find that 99.9% of clents don't realize that there's anything wrong with editing someone else's images, and once you explain it to them, most go "Ohhhh... I never thought of that!".  That said, you're always going to get some who just don't care.  That's when the written contract and the $150 'cease & desist' letter from your lawyer come into play.


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## kathyt (May 5, 2013)

I would have had a contract in place, but I would CALL her ASAP and let her know they need to come down. Explain to her why it is important to you. Sometimes they don't understand. Don't just text them or email them. Good communication is key.


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## pixmedic (May 5, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> I would have had a contract in place, but I would CALL her ASAP and let her know they need to come down. Explain to her why it is important to you. Sometimes they don't understand. Don't just text them or email them. Good communication is key.



+1 to communication. before, during, AND after the shoot.


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## cgipson1 (May 5, 2013)

uh... CONTRACT?  (and a link to the photo?)


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## TheCameraLady (May 5, 2013)

I called her and I was polite and she took it down. I was just shocked that it happened. I am having one of those "Man, I should have listened to TPF" moments. Contract is now in the works! Thanks guys. I am also going to talk to someone about taxes. I am going to be as smart about this as possible now before something else bites me in the butt


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## TheCameraLady (May 5, 2013)

I don't have a link to the photo since she took it down, but it was bad.


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## KmH (May 5, 2013)

What country are you in? There is no location in your profile.
When it comes down to business issues, that can play a big part in the applicability of advice you get.

If you didn't have a contract, and don't yet know about taxes, do you have a legal business, business liability insurance, a state sales tax account, etc?


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## TheCameraLady (May 5, 2013)

No, and I've only made $80 so far, because they insisted. I am still deciding if I even want to turn this into a part time business. I live in the US.


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## KmH (May 5, 2013)

So, so far you have $80 in revenue. How much, if any, was profit after subtracting your non-reimbursed expenses - like the cost of your camera, lens(s), computer, image editing software, electricity, phone, car, internet access, etc.

Your state will have a web site similar to this - Iowa Department of Revenue - Iowa Taxes

Some of your federal income tax dollars at work - Starting & Managing a Business | SBA.gov


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## Overread (May 5, 2013)

There is a massive difference between making a few $ doing the odd favour for a friend and turning things into either part time or full time legal business. You need to be very sure which camp you are in, many people like to start out in the latter because running your own company is "desireable" but they often don't do their homework. As a result they have a nice "company website" and do the odd job for a few friends for a few months and that is about it. 

If you want to go legit you've got a lot of work ahead of you with tax, paperwork, marketing, research, advertising etc... Starting a company requires investment in time and money. You might well find it far more suitable to look for work for an already established photography firm locally and learn some of the ropes before jumping head first into running your own company (also remember running a company means running the company, not just doing photography. Some people find that after working in the industry they love the photography, but really don't want to take on the business management side of running their own)


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## orljustin (May 5, 2013)

TheCameraLady said:


> I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
> And I am tagged in it so people think I did that.
> talk about ruining a reputation.



I wouldn't care what you said.  I paid for your time, got my product and its mine to do as I like, especially in the digital/facebook/etc. age.


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## tirediron (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> TheCameraLady said:
> 
> 
> > I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
> ...


:shock:


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## o hey tyler (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> TheCameraLady said:
> 
> 
> > I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
> ...



Not if it explicitly states otherwise in a contract... But yes, verbal agreements don't usually carry much weight.


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## TheCameraLady (May 5, 2013)

Overread said:


> There is a massive difference between making a few $ doing the odd favour for a friend and turning things into either part time or full time legal business. You need to be very sure which camp you are in, many people like to start out in the latter because running your own company is "desireable" but they often don't do their homework. As a result they have a nice "company website" and do the odd job for a few friends for a few months and that is about it.
> 
> If you want to go legit you've got a lot of work ahead of you with tax, paperwork, marketing, research, advertising etc... Starting a company requires investment in time and money. You might well find it far more suitable to look for work for an already established photography firm locally and learn some of the ropes before jumping head first into running your own company (also remember running a company means running the company, not just doing photography. Some people find that after working in the industry they love the photography, but really don't want to take on the business management side of running their own)



I am going to talk to some other photography businesses around town and see if they would be interested in hiring me. Or interning and then being hired as a second photographer or something. It's just that most of the companies around here are strictly husband/wife duos. I am going to look a little more seriously now though. I just wanted to make something on the side to pay for some extra school expenses/getting more gear. I figured if I charged I would be able to make money and be able to afford better equipment. 
I would like to just do the occasional shoot for extra cash but when I've seen people ask about that on here everyone asks about taxes, contracts, and licensing. If I were to do say, 2-3 $80 shoots every month would I have to start a business? I really just want to break even on my equipment and then see from there. I'm sorry if I sound really naive.


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## runnah (May 5, 2013)

Over my dead body. I don't even show my camera screen.


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## orljustin (May 5, 2013)

tirediron said:


> orljustin said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't care what you said. I paid for your time, got my product and its mine to do as I like, especially in the digital/facebook/etc. age.
> ...



Yeah, I know.  Shocking.  Still, I feel I'm paying you to create something for me.  Once I pay you, and I have my photos, I'll do what I like.  I'm not here to be an advertisement for you.


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## Overread (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...



And yet you are. If you signed a contract agreeing to certain things then you should honour them. If you don't like the original contract you negotiate it; at which point either both parties come to a new agreement that pleases both; or they part company as what one wants the other can't provide. 

Your point is, however what most (heck if not nearly all) clients will view the situation as. We photographers might argue different, but honestly the average person really hasn't got a clue (and if they are not photographers or in a similar line of work chances are they simply have never encountered this before - heck copyright isn't something they even teach in schools).





As for the main topic; check the tax laws out for earnings and see what the thresholds are. Often as not you have to earn a certain amount before the taxman even wants to know you - even then the amount and regularity of earnings is important as well as how much of your income it represents. 

As for breaking even, get an idea of what the standard rates are for things and charge accordingly; be sure to always get paid for your time (including estimated editing time - meeting time - review time etc...). Last thing you want is to do "hobby" work and get paid less than if you'd just gone and stacked shelves for the same length of time. Also charging a fair rate helps the photography market as you don't devalue the product that you produce (devaluing is a very fast road to ending up like a supermarket - lots of cheap stuff and relying on vast sales to cover it - fine for bread; not much good for photography as you can't just up your hours).


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## o hey tyler (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > orljustin said:
> ...



Yeah, pay me to do your photos. After you sign my contract and I do the shoot for you, have fun paying me $$$ for every time you violate copyright law. Good times.


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## rexbobcat (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> TheCameraLady said:
> 
> 
> > I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
> ...



You do not seem to understand copyright law, sir.

You may buy a song on iTunes for $1.99 but you do not own the song just as you do not own the photos unless ownership is given to you by the photographer.

It's not inherently your product regardless of what you paid so you rightfully cannot manipulate or change the photos in any way. It is illegal. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.


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## kathyt (May 5, 2013)

orljustin said:


> TheCameraLady said:
> 
> 
> > I just gave my client a disk if her pictures and explicitly said "No editing or color changing whatsoever" and I got on Facebook 5 minutes later and there is one of MY pictures with selective coloring. There are few things that make me as nauseous as selective coloring makes me. I messaged her politely to please take it down and do not edit the colors on anymore of the photos but REALLY? And she has me added.
> ...



Yeah, WTH. Do you do work for clients? No client of mine would dare edit one of my images and post it online. I think you need to re-read chapter one of Photography etiquette and copyright laws.


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## tirediron (May 5, 2013)

Okay folks, let's not get too far de-railed please!


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## kathyt (May 5, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Okay folks, let's not get too far de-railed please!


Okay, okay. Rainbows and butterflies. Rainbows and butterflies.


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## BuS_RiDeR (May 5, 2013)

480sparky said:


> "Said" should have been replaced with a written contract....



Agreed.


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## orljustin (May 6, 2013)

rexbobcat said:


> You do not seem to understand copyright law, sir.
> 
> You may buy a song on iTunes for $1.99 but you do not own the song just as you do not own the photos unless ownership is given to you by the photographer.
> 
> It's not inherently your product regardless of what you paid so you rightfully cannot manipulate or change the photos in any way. It is illegal. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.



Sorry to burst your bubble.  I know copyright just fine.  Point being, I'm not going to hire someone that thinks they are going to control the usage of product I've hired them to create.  So I'm not going to get into any such situation.  But especially if someone like the OP tries to pull that for their $80 or something, being a "business", it's not going to fly.  If I hire someone to do a family photo, you can bet I'm going to crop it for facebook, or put it on my Christmas card, email it my mother, whatever.  Which is why I would pay the correct rate up front to cover the price, so as not to deal with that nonsense.  Threats of garnering $$$ for selectively coloring a rose (ick) are ridiculous and won't happen.


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## Buckster (May 6, 2013)

orljustin said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > You do not seem to understand copyright law, sir.
> ...


And this is why a detailed contract is required up front, folks; So you don't waste your time working for people who want to do more with your copyrighted photos than you'll allow at a particular price, without definite legal recourse.

In this case, since the client doesn't have any contract that allows such uses or copyright transfer, they're out of luck and the copyright holder can enforce.


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## rexbobcat (May 6, 2013)

orljustin said:


> rexbobcat said:
> 
> 
> > You do not seem to understand copyright law, sir.
> ...



My point still stands. If you don't put your self in the situation that you are arguing against then your argument is moot. 

However; everything I said in my post is true.

And not everyone is just like you. If you don't get into a situation like then, that's great. But you aren't everybody so stop talking like you are.

The fact is that unless stated otherwise, you have no rights to any images you buy from someone else, so if you only get photos taken by someone who transfers the copyright to you then this whole argument is pointless in the perspective of your life, so whose bubble are you trying to burst here?

I agree with you in the context of your argument.


And the fact that "everyone does it" and "you can't stop it" are piss poor defenses. 

Money is not as good as a strong contract by the way.

But whatever, it's not like the Internet generation's mentality is a problem in the profession of photography or anything. Oh...wait..


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## amolitor (May 6, 2013)

How much do written contracts really help?

A contract isn't a magical object which binds people with eldritch forces to compliance. It serves two major purposes: It gives both parties a reasonable chance at actually understanding what the common agreement actually IS, and it forms a basis for litigation. For a small businessman, the second is pretty much worthless. Litigation is expensive.

There IS a middle ground where you can get a lawyer to draft a c&d or similar on the basis of a contrat, for not too much money. This is accessible to small business owners, and is not worthless by any means. If it works, it's probably just because someone didn't actually read the contract, or didn't think it mattered. But, if I was willfully flouting a contract with some small businessman (which I wouldn't do) I'd laugh merrily at your c&d and bin it.

Anyways. It's good to have the understanding up front, and it's good to have it on paper since that gives it a sort of ersatz weight, no argument there. Just don't confuse a contract with magic.

Incidentally, a verbal agreement can be a contract. It's just harder to deal with legally, since there's no paper trail. A verbal contract with witnesses, well, maybe you got something.

All that said, it is a brave new digital world. Your stuff is going to get copied and edited and abused, if it's any good AT ALL, or even if it's terrible but has some personal meaning for someone. The fact that it is _going to happen_ does not, of course, make it _right_. I am most certainly not claiming that it's right. It's just reality. A business person must, first and foremost, deal with reality. So, if you're going to run a business, figure out how you're going to deal with this reality.

If you don't distribute digital copies, some people will scan it or re-photograph it. Fewer people will wind up with bad digital copies of your work, but some people will. If you distribute only small files, and/or heavily watermarked files, then lots of people will have bad copies of your work. If you distribute large high quality files, lots of people will have good copies of your work.

Contracts, as well as technical/distribution solutions, serve mainly to reduce the effect. They do not eliminate it. Get your arms around the size of the problem, and figure out how to make your business work in the face of that.


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## imagemaker46 (May 6, 2013)

This thread is just another of many that comes through here and everyone always offers up the same useful information that is useless.  This is yet another amateur wanting to start selling her pictures or giving them away without having clue one, or having done any research on how to run any kind of transaction, I can't use the word business as I don't believe that this will become a business.  Pointless to mention contracts, taxes, business licence, insurance or ask about "what kind or gear"  I can guess that none of this has gone past the "I suppose I should do that" starter kit camera stage.

When the thread starts off talking about someone posting on facebook, it usually reads the same as all the other facebook stories.


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## Tailgunner (May 6, 2013)

TheCameraLady said:


> I would like to just do the occasional shoot for extra cash but when I've seen people ask about that on here everyone asks about taxes, contracts, and licensing. If I were to do say, 2-3 $80 shoots every month would I have to start a business? I really just want to break even on my equipment and then see from there. I'm sorry if I sound really naive.



You don't have to start a business but you have to report the income you make off your hobbies. Now with that said, this can actually benefit you by allowing you the ability to write off hobby expenses...and possibly increasing your tax return. 

"For example, your neighbors paid you for taking pictures of their son's college graduation ceremony. You bought a new lens for your camera and several rolls of film, not to mention the supplies to develop the prints. (Yeah, I know, digital and all that. But in some cases, old-school pictures are still the best.)


You can deduct those photography costs ... as long as you meet two requirements.


First, your hobby-related deductions are limited to the amount of hobby income you report on your tax return. If you made $1,000 on the photo shoot and spent $1,200 for the supplies, you can only count $1,000 of your expenses.


Second, you have to itemize to claim the expenditures. They are counted as part of any miscellaneous expenses you have on Schedule A. And your miscellaneous expenses must exceed 2 percent of your adjusted gross income before you can deduct them."



Hobby or business? Taxes either way - Don't Mess With Taxes


If you choose to persue this avenue, I suggest two things: consulting a professional Tax/Accountant and keeping very good records/receipts for 5yrs. 


Best of luck.


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## tirediron (May 6, 2013)

kathythorson said:


> tirediron said:
> 
> 
> > Okay folks, let's not get too far de-railed please!
> ...


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## TheCameraLady (May 6, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> This thread is just another of many that comes through here and everyone always offers up the same useful information that is useless.  This is yet another amateur wanting to start selling her pictures or giving them away without having clue one, or having done any research on how to run any kind of transaction, I can't use the word business as I don't believe that this will become a business.  Pointless to mention contracts, taxes, business licence, insurance or ask about "what kind or gear"  I can guess that none of this has gone past the "I suppose I should do that" starter kit camera stage.
> 
> When the thread starts off talking about someone posting on facebook, it usually reads the same as all the other facebook stories.


Okay, sorry for trying to get a clue and trying to be responsible by asking other professionals and then talking to accountant and seeing about drafting a contract. I have been researching and asking questions is part of the process. I'm sorry for being new to the business side of something.


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## Tee (May 6, 2013)

orljustin said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble.  I know copyright just fine.  Point being, I'm not going to hire someone that thinks they are going to control the usage of product I've hired them to create.  So I'm not going to get into any such situation.  But especially if someone like the OP tries to pull that for their $80 or something, being a "business", it's not going to fly.  If I hire someone to do a family photo, you can bet I'm going to crop it for facebook, or put it on my Christmas card, email it my mother, whatever.  Which is why I would pay the correct rate up front to cover the price, so as not to deal with that nonsense.  Threats of garnering $$$ for selectively coloring a rose (ick) are ridiculous and won't happen.




You must be a hobbyist.


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## o hey tyler (May 6, 2013)

Tee said:


> You must be a hobbyist.



Seconded.


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## amolitor (May 6, 2013)

So how many people on here have actually sued anyone for copyright infringement?

Show of hands?


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## runnah (May 6, 2013)

amolitor said:


> So how many people on here have actually sued anyone for copyright infringement?
> 
> Show of hands?



Does patent infringement count?


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## amolitor (May 6, 2013)

runnah said:


> amolitor said:
> 
> 
> > So how many people on here have actually sued anyone for copyright infringement?
> ...



NO. Hell, we've ALL done that.


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## imagemaker46 (May 6, 2013)

TheCameraLady said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is just another of many that comes through here and everyone always offers up the same useful information that is useless.  This is yet another amateur wanting to start selling her pictures or giving them away without having clue one, or having done any research on how to run any kind of transaction, I can't use the word business as I don't believe that this will become a business.  Pointless to mention contracts, taxes, business licence, insurance or ask about "what kind or gear"  I can guess that none of this has gone past the "I suppose I should do that" starter kit camera stage.
> ...



Ask all the questions that you want but don't start off with asking "other" professionals.  You're far from being at the point of using the word professional to describe yourself.  You are an amateur that wants to start making a couple of hundred dollars extra a month, which doesn't even cover the gas to get too and from many shoots. Just say I want to pretend to make money and enjoy the hobby.  Not everyone has to try and make money simply because they own a camera.


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## imagemaker46 (May 6, 2013)

Can you post some of your work?


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## amolitor (May 6, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:


> Ask all the questions that you want but don't start off with asking "other" professionals.



Seriously? You're complaining because she used the "other"?

This isn't a PhD thesis, it's an internet forum post. We all get a little casual from time to time, and don't always select our words with due precision. Be a little generous in your interpretation.


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## imagemaker46 (May 6, 2013)

amolitor said:


> imagemaker46 said:
> 
> 
> > Ask all the questions that you want but don't start off with asking "other" professionals.
> ...




I did and I'll stand by it every single time.  Call it a professional photographers pet peeve, along the lines of people calling themselves semi-professional photographers.

I would not make the statement after changing the oil in my car, and posting  how do other professional mechanics re-build their engines.


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## pixmedic (May 6, 2013)

let not all get in a huff over what other people call themselves since it doesn't affect anyone else or their business. 
the term "professional" is definitely a hot topic here, especially lately, so lets try and keep things civil. too many threads have been locked lately over the same few subjects, and honestly, I think most of us have already seen the "are you a professional?" threads enough times to know just how this is going to go if we don't show a little self restraint with these topics.  carry on.


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## imagemaker46 (May 6, 2013)

I'm fine with it now.  I agree with what you said, and yes a lot of threads have been getting locked up when they fly way off topic.


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## Steve5D (May 6, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> let not all get in a huff over what other people call themselves since it doesn't affect anyone else or their business.



Oh, c'mon. You know full well that there's no shortage of people here who actually have an unusually sick need to spend inordinate amounts of time worrying about what _other _people do...


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## PixelRabbit (May 6, 2013)

Steve5D said:


> Oh, c'mon. You know full well that there's no shortage of people here who actually have an unusually sick need to spend inordinate amounts of time worrying about what other people do...



And some of us like popcorn...a lot!


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## ronlane (May 6, 2013)

PixelRabbit said:


> Steve5D said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, c'mon. You know full well that there's no shortage of people here who actually have an unusually sick need to spend inordinate amounts of time worrying about what other people do...
> ...



Here Pixel


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## tirediron (May 6, 2013)

.... and I think we're far enough down the rabbit hole.


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