# Charging fees from paypal- whose responsibility?



## kellylindseyphotography (May 14, 2008)

I just realized that on my site I did not specify that if someone was paying via credit card on paypal that they should cover the fees.  Someone bought a print and I ended up covering like .70 cents.  Not a big deal the first time cuz it was my own mistake....

But then I got to thinking... should I ask those who pay CC pay those fees?  Or is it my responsibility to include that in my price beforehand?

If so, I would just have to raise all my prices and it would not be fair to those that pay cash or funded pay pal.

In any case, SHOULD I be responsible for fees incurred by credit cards or is it the buyers?


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## JimmyO (May 14, 2008)

Yes, paypal deducts the charge from the money they send you, so they pay the charge, but not on top of the money there sending you. If you want you could raise your price a tad if you want.


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## dslrchat (May 14, 2008)

You could state, that if paying via PayPal with CC there will be a Premium charge.
However, for the amount they charge, I would absorb the cost, they only time the fee will be huge is if you sell a huge order, in which your will be making a bigger profit any ways.

Just my Opinion here.

PayPal also charges the buyer an extra charge when using CC I beleive.
They basically have their hands in both pockets 
Thats how they make so much $$$


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## Big Mike (May 14, 2008)

Put yourself in the consumer's shoes...would you like to pay an extra fee on top of the price?  Probably not.  Just eat the fee yourself and adjust your price to cover it as a 'cost of doing business'.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 14, 2008)

Big Mike said:


> Put yourself in the consumer's shoes...would you like to pay an extra fee on top of the price?  Probably not.  Just eat the fee yourself and adjust your price to cover it as a 'cost of doing business'.



Your right.  Thats why I asked.. though with bigger orders, I am looking to lose a lot of money.  Yes, I"ll make a bigger profit but if they had paid with funded paypal, I would not have lost a cent.

Jimmy, the SELLER eats the credit card fees, not the buyer.  The fees are 3.5% of the total, I believe.  Change if your looking at one photo (less than a buck) but if your talking photo packages, I would be looking at eating fee's of 10, 20, even 50 dollars.  

So for example, the photo I Just sold was a 5x7, I chard 6.00 for it.  Paypal only depositied 5.31 in my account.


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## Sarah23 (May 14, 2008)

Hmmm...I guess if an order is over "$XX.XX" amount, you could put that if they are going to pay that way that there would be a fee. I mean...its not that hard for them to just move money into their paypal account and have it funded.  Or you could maybe not accept unfunded paypal for over a certain order amount...but that might drive away business.


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## Rachelsne (May 14, 2008)

seller should pay.


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## hedonia (May 14, 2008)

Just raise your prices to cover the cost. I like all my print prices to be a nice whole number, so after I use my markup equation, I add the fees and taxes then round up. So something costs me 1.39 to buy wholesale, after all the fees and the markup it comes to, say, 9.27, I make it cost $10. Then when the customer checks out, it costs $10 exactly. Nice and simple. 

If your profit margins are such that getting $5.31 on a $6 sale is too little, then your prices need to be raised anyway.


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## AprilRamone (May 14, 2008)

The problem in your situation is that you aren't charging enough for your work.  $6 for a 4x6" is nothing.


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## SpeedTrap (May 14, 2008)

I price to include such fees, if the person ordering does not know they are paying the fee, they do not complain.  Most retailers do this, Visa and Mastercard charge the retailers for point of sale machines the retail stores add this in as part of the prices.

Adding the fee on extra looks amature and unprofessional.  This is just my thought.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 14, 2008)

AprilRamone said:


> The problem in your situation is that you aren't charging enough for your work.  $6 for a 4x6" is nothing.



Hi, thanks for your thoughts. I am just starting out, so my prices are very very low right now.  I don't know if I'm up to par with charging a lot.  Feedback has been only so-so from what I've gathered here on this forum.  So I only charge what I think my level is at- which is amateur.


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## AprilRamone (May 14, 2008)

Kelly,
I was once in your boat and my best advice is to charge what you will want to charge when you are good enough.  And for now to build up to being good enough offer discounts off of the real pricing.  
Trust me, when the time comes and you have spent two years building up a base of clients who are happy to spend $6 on a 4x6" and you attempt to raise the price to an actual amount you can live off of you'll lose everyone you spent two years finding and have to start all over again anyway.  
I strongly feel that you are shooting yourself in the foot by charging such a small amount.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 14, 2008)

AprilRamone said:


> Kelly,
> I was once in your boat and my best advice is to charge what you will want to charge when you are good enough.  And for now to build up to being good enough offer discounts off of the real pricing.
> Trust me, when the time comes and you have spent two years building up a base of clients who are happy to spend $6 on a 4x6" and you attempt to raise the price to an actual amount you can live off of you'll lose everyone you spent two years finding and have to start all over again anyway.
> I strongly feel that you are shooting yourself in the foot by charging such a small amount.



:hugs:  Thanks for that advice.  Can you let me know a good jumping start in terms of real pricing?


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## Nimitz (May 14, 2008)

In any small business the price you charge for your products or services must take into account all your 'overhead'. This includes any fees associated with your transcations, like Credit card fees & PayPal fees. If you read the fine print of your Merchant Services Account - this is account setup by whatever institution you are using to process credit cards - you will see that it is a violation of that agreement to have one price for cash/checks & another for credit cards. PayPal is just a web credit card.

Anyway, if you do or anticipate a lot of business via PayPal then you should factor in those costs when you set your pricing, along with anything else.

Many folks just starting out deal with this issue of "I don't want to charge too much , etc" but you are really setting a trap for yourself. As someone already pointed out you will find it almost impossible to raise prices in the future "when you are better".

This will sound a little harsh but you are either currently able to produce professional quality images and should charge accordingly or you can not, in which case you should continue to practice & only charge when you are ready

$6 for a 4x6 is nothing and you are also undercutting all the professional photographers already in business who are charging more appropriate fees for their work. We all suffer when someone does not charge appropriatly for their work.

Take a quick look around the web to get an idea what professionals are charging and you'll see what I mean.

My fees are the same as they were for my first client: $99 sitting fee plus print costs; less for pkgs & more for single prints ...


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 14, 2008)

Nimitz said:


> In any small business the price you charge for your products or services must take into account all your 'overhead'. This includes any fees associated with your transcations, like Credit card fees & PayPal fees. If you read the fine print of your Merchant Services Account - this is account setup by whatever institution you are using to process credit cards - you will see that it is a violation of that agreement to have one price for cash/checks & another for credit cards. PayPal is just a web credit card.
> 
> Anyway, if you do or anticipate a lot of business via PayPal then you should factor in those costs when you set your pricing, along with anything else.
> 
> ...



You know I've heard that before.. that I"m "undercutting" professional photog's... listen, if they have the skill and the clientelle, I'm not taking NOTHING from them.  I'm someone starting up a business trying to give reasonable prices to my customers with the understanding that they know I'm just starting out.

I find NOTHING wrong with that and refuse to think I'm taking away work from someone else cuz I"m cheaper.  If someone out there is worth their weight in what they charge, then they WILL get work.  And someone cheaper with less experience won't cut it for those clients.  Its HARDLY HARDLY taking from them.  I take serious offence to that.


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## AprilRamone (May 14, 2008)

Kelly,
I started out with prices similar to yours thinking that I could get a bunch of clients in and make some decent $.  I did start to build up a good client base, but was wondering why I wasn't able to make ends meet with my prices, and I just couldn't find enough clients to make the $ I needed to at those prices.  It was a "Duh!" moment for me when I started to realize that I'm not Walmart or Target or Sears nor can I charge what they do and stay in business.
I now charge $35 for an 8x10, $20 for 5x7" and under, and $25 for a sheet of wallets.  And, I feel that those prices will probably have to be raised as well.  
You really need to sit down and figure out how much it costs you to answer emails, drive to meetings with clients, upload orders, answer messages, edit, shoot, upgrade equipment, repair equipment, pay for insurance, accountant, etc... basically ALL of the things that really go into making your business work.  You'll soon find that even with a $35 8x10 you aren't making as much as it seems.
Nimitz is totally right when he says that "you are either currently able to produce professional quality images and should charge accordingly or you can not, in which case you should continue to practice & only charge when you are ready"
I really wish I had taken this advice when I was first starting out.  It sucks to hear it, but it's true.  In the meantime, while you are building up your skills, you can charge "Portfolio Building" rates which should be discounted off of the rates you eventually want to charge in exchange for the use of your PB client's signatures on a model release.  
I promise, if you do it this way it'll save you a lot of heartache when the time comes to charge the "Big Girl" prices


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## daluke09 (May 15, 2008)

> $6 for a 4x6 is nothing and you are also undercutting all the professional photographers already in business who are charging more appropriate fees for their work. We all suffer when someone does not charge appropriatly for their work.




Isn't that how all business works?


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## Nimitz (May 15, 2008)

What April said ...

Look, as I said, I'm not trying to get you upset but whether you choose to believe it or not when you don't charge appropriately for your work the general public - who do not understand how difficult it is to be a professional photographer - start to believe that top quality professional images should not cost that much. That's what I meant when I said you are hurting the rest of us.

If you've ever had a client take one of your prints and go to Walmart and make a copy and then complain that the image sucks - blaming your poor photograph, you'll start to understand this.

If you 'feel bad' about charging a lot for an image I guess I might have to question your motives about being a professional photographer? Maybe you don't need the money to live on and this is just an extended hobby for you, I don't know? But I can assure you that anyone who's sole income is derived from photography understands all too well about pricing so that they can earn a living.

Also, I never worry about anyone, pro or amateur, taking business from me because of pricing. I'm lucky in that no one does what I do for 200 miles so I could probably charge even more. But my pricing factors in both the typical rate for a professionally produced image and the quality & creativity I provide. 

I'm really not aware of any business where high quality products & services that require creativity are given away at "Dollar Store" prices.


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## cdanddvdpublisher (May 15, 2008)

Rachelsne said:


> seller should pay.




Absolutely. I do a lot of work online and, yes, Paypal fees can take a pretty big chunk sometimes, but... Any credit card processing service charges a fee - when someone pays $2 for a cup of coffee, most credit processing services charge .30 for the transaction plus 3.5% or more; when you look at it that way, Paypal fees are pretty reasonable.


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## kellylindseyphotography (May 15, 2008)

daluke09 said:


> Isn't that how all business works?



Yes it is.  Thats kinda my point.

You didn't upset me, really.  This is not my sole income.  It's a side hobby.  I have *never* had a complete stranger for clientelle.  I shoot for my mom's group mainly, some friends and family.  

I dunno what else to say, really.  I am charging what I feel comfortable charging right now.  I increased my prices a bit after reading this thread, because yes the 4x6s and under were very underpriced because I figured no one ever orders 4x6s.  

I think there IS a middle ground.  I don't think that I am affecting ALL photographers by shooting for my friends at a reasonable cost.  I understand that some pro's feel that is the case and I understand the logic (really, I do.), but I am doing what I feel comfortable with currently.  I do get how hard it is to be a professional photog.. I am very respectful of the profession.  I know there are a MANY costs to doing the job and I understand the analogy of going against the grain of professional pricing.

Though, I am looking into the possibility of what April suggested and increasing my prices while offering coupons in the meantime.


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## Dave127 (May 15, 2008)

I agree. I have run my own business for 11 years and the CC fees are the sellers responsibility. You think MC and VS are bad, you should see what Amex charges. Im like you, trying to turn a hobby into a business, but you should listen to the pros. They are absolutely correct. Pricing your work correctly is very important and should be done from the start or you will spend years trying to correct your mistake. You also have to consider that as soon as you sell anything, you are considered a professional. You should be paid for your work and you will invest time and money in trying to establish youre self and your business.


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