# Oh boy...first Photoshoot.



## MrPie (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm sure you guys have seen countless threads on amateurs with Cameras who are charging people for taking photos. I got a reply for a job where someone needed a Photographer Urgently for a photoshoot. I've had a look at their site and its a fashion wholesale store so it's mainly the clothes that are going to be the focus. I've got an appointment made with the company to discuss what's going to happen and pricing, which i happening tomorrow. I got my Canon 1100D back in 2011 and have been shooting ever since. I want some opinions on what sort of prices i should discuss. I'm also very proficient in using photoshop so that would most likely be an extra charge if they want it done which they most likely will judging from the pictures on their website. 

You can check out some of the photos i took (of nature, buildings and scenery) and i would love it if you guys would tell me how much you would pay to have photos of that kind of quality. Flickr: AnsibNabi's Photostream

Btw those photos are unedited but i took tons of photos and they are what i think are the best out of the '1000s' of pictures i took on my eurotrip.

Thanks again. I really don't want to hang out my 'shingle' but it might be too late for that 

Of course i'll update with what happens with the discussion tomorrow.


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## tirediron (Jun 6, 2013)

Shuffling off to the Business District.


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## tirediron (Jun 6, 2013)

Ummm... well...  to be perfectly blunt, I wouldn't pay a nickle for the job lot (but than I am a photographer).  The collection on your Flickr page seems to me like a collection of holiday snaps, rather than a body of work, that is, there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern for exposure, composition, etc.  They're nice enough holiday snaps, but at the end of the day, IMO, they're still holiday snaps.

As for prices, well that's entirely up to you.  This is the sort of job I would bill out at $1200/day + licensing.  What you charge will depend on your costs, the quality of the product, the use of the images, and many other factors.

Understanding you haven't requested input on the process, I am going to ask if you have the equipment to discharge a commission such as this?  Again, without details it's almost impossible to guess what will be required, but I do know that it would be virtually impossible to do a job relating to the commercial clothing industry without lighting equipment and a good knowledge of how to use it.


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## MrPie (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for moving the thread to the correct place.

Yeah i guess the process is what i was trying to figure out. I don't have lighting equipment myself. The only thing i have is my Canon1100D with the stock lens it came with (18-55mm) and a 50mm lens that i got sometime after as well as a Tripod. The photos are most likely going to be presented on their websites but i'm not 100% sure on this as not much detail has been given yet. That will be discussed tomorrow. But looking from the photos i see there, i can most likely achieve the same result if not better. I dunno...it could just be me being too full of myself :er:.

As for pricing i was thinking more along the amount of £50 per hour (They only want me for 4 hours) and if they want the photos to be post processed then i could charge them per X amount of photos. I'll have a talk with them tomorrow and see what is required and get back to you guys.

EDIT: Totally forgot! When negotiating tomorrow about pricing and what's the client wants, is there anything i should specifically ask that i might not think of first? The things i have right now is.

* What type of photos do you require
* Where are they being used
* Do you require the photos to be post processed
* Do you want them available on a DVD or sent to you digitally?
* Can i have a look at a the photoshoot location?

That's all i have, if there is anything missing feel free to tell me.


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

Something tells me you're going to get taken to the cleaners on this one... but... 

-All images have to be post-processed, at least to a certain degree; it may take only 30 seconds to straighten, crop and fine-tune WB, but it has to be done.

-How are you going to obtain and learn to use a multiple light set-up in the time available?  WHERE are you going to get the lights?

-Personally, I would make advance scouting of the venue(s) a condition of accepting to the job; how do I know if I need to bring a couple of speedlights, or a full-on studio kit?

-What about a contract?  Do you have one for them to sign agreeing to 'x' payment for 'y' work and spelling out each in detail, as well as terms & conditions of usage of the images?  That's a must.

-Insurance?  What happens if an employee trips over your tripod, knocks your rig to the floor and breaks a tooth in the process?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not suggestion you could not or should not do this (I have no idea if you can or not), but I want you to make sure that you understand there's a LOT more to this than waltzing in at 10.00 on the morning of, shooting a few pictures and walking out.  Granted, you might get away with that, but then again, you might not.  What's your "OMG, the client hates the pictures" plan?


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## ronlane (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie said:


> Btw those photos are unedited but i took tons of photos and they are what i think are the best out of the '1000s' of pictures i took on my eurotrip.
> 
> Thanks again. I really don't want to hang out my 'shingle' but it might be too late for that



tirediron has pretty much covered everything but these two things. Why would you show images that have been unedited? You want to show your best work as completed not before. And it's never too late unless you've signed a contract, you can always say no.


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## orljustin (Jun 7, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Don't misunderstand, I'm not suggestion you could not or should not do this



I'll suggest it.  You're a vacation snapper with a camera and kit lens, no knowledge of lighting, and you think fashion photos _might_ have to edited in Photoshop.  You're going to find yourself in a mess if you manage to convince them you're able to do a shoot like you've described.


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## cptkid (Jun 7, 2013)

Looking at your Flickr, in my opinion, you are in way over your head. 

I don't see any professional looking images in your Flickr feed, just snap shots. 

Do you really think that you can produce professional quality photos for this retailer?


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 7, 2013)

" i can most likely achieve the same result if not better. I dunno...it could just be me being too full of myself :er:."

This would be a major concern for me. I'm not the greatest, but I can look at a photo and know wether I can match it or do better, if your not sure then you shouldn't be going into this. They likely won't want photos that are worse then what they have. My philosophy is I will take a photo if I know I can do a good job at and hae the skills to do it. If it's something new iv'e never done I will and have turned jobs down until I have that experience.


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

Okay... looking at the comments i feel my guts turning inside out. I met the owner and one of the employees said they're looking for pictures to be uploaded to the website. We negotiated a bit about the price but a contract hasn't been signed which leaves me free to just say no. It's going to be indoors and they already have an area with umbrellas and a backdrop available for me to use. I took some pictures on my phone of what their place looks like.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ansibnabi/sets/72157633986996138/

I recommended that they cover up the ceiling on the side with a thick cloth to stop the light pouring in and the main concern of theirs is that there shouldn't be any shadows on the backdrop. It seems they've been using two light sources (umbrellas) which have created the unrealistic shadows at the back.  I have told them that i'd process the images and only hand them the best ones. I'm really NOT trying to rip someone off here or make a quick buck, it's not my type of thing and i've never done it before.

I didn't think that all photos looked like holiday snaps. Granted some of them do but most of them i tried to take a nice shot and ready up the composition. I know i've got a lot to learn and will do so, i think i'll just decline the job and keep practicing. What do you think?


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## cptkid (Jun 7, 2013)

I honestly think it would be adviseable for you to not do it. And then gain experience you can use at a later stage. 

The last thing you want is to be paid for this, do a bad job & not be able to supply them with what they need. 

Also, if you do a bad job, word can spread and it can, and most likely will effect your chances of being employed to do jobs like this in the future. 

Its things like when you say 

"I recommended that they cover up the ceiling on the side with a thick cloth to stop the light pouring in" 

If you knew anything about lighting, you would know that you can easily kill all ambient light with shutter speed.


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## orljustin (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ansibnabi/sets/72157633986996138/



Private...


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## ronlane (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie said:


> I'm really NOT trying to rip someone off here or make a quick buck, it's not my type of thing and i've never done it before.



I wouldn't think that the first time you done something that you'd want to do it for pay with a contract with a company. Has disaster written all over it. IMHO.


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## manaheim (Jun 7, 2013)

I saw your pictures.  They're fine enough.  Some show some promise.  I wouldn't worry TOO much.

My concern here is that you're sounding as if you have quite a lot of prep work to do to be ready to handle all the business elements involved here.  You just barely have a sense of your pricing, and I wonder if you have factored in your costs and such. I suspect you don't have standard contracts prepped.  The way you talk about things it seems like you've considered some of the elements, but you probably don't realize how much is involved above and beyond what you've thought of and you're going to wind up walking into some serious pitfalls... things like "Oh the client has asked me to edit my pictures so they no longer represent reality... what do I do?" are going to be the next posts we see from you.

It's not that you cannot do this.  I'm sure you can.  Anyone can.  It's just that there is quite a bit you need to have worked out before you even TALK to your first client... and basically, you've already probably hosed yourself in more ways than you can know.

There are a lot of threads on here that talk about the kinds of things you need to do to get going on a business.  I suggest searching for them and reading them ALL.  Then decide if you think you can do everything you need to in the relatively compressed time you have between now and whenever they want you to do the shoot. Then go from there.  If you don't have enough time, then you'll likely want to back away from this one and start your prep work now so you'll be ready next time.

Now... there's something else.  CAN you just shoot from the hip?  Well, yeah. I did. (stupidly)  Many do.  You just put yourself in the unique spot of having been smart enough to ask the question and now you've opened the Pandora's box.  Now you KNOW there's a lot you're not prepared for, so on top of being unprepared, you're going to go into this KNOWING that you're not fully prepared... and what's worse is you're going to know that you don't even know how unprepared you are.  Sort of the equivalent to someone asking you if you breathe in or out when you swing the golf club... only worse. 

One way or another, you will survive this process, but all of us more experienced folks are telling you that you're basically going to go through more suffering and stress for it.  In extreme cases, you can even wind up being sued. (probably not in this case, but what if while on-site you wind up breaking some expensive piece of equipment?  Have insurance?  No... you don't.  One of the 10,000 things you need to be thinking about.)


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## cgipson1 (Jun 7, 2013)

I agree with the others... you lack both the needed equipment and knowledge to do a professional job here. If you make the client VERY aware that you are not a professional, and that you will do the best you can... and charge much less than £50 per hour (maybe £20), go for it if they are still interested. Hopefully your photoshop skills will make up for any deficiencies in the photography (but DONT charge extra for it.. since you would be cleaning up after yourself).  Consider it a paid learning experience.. not a true professional gig.

The photos on your website are not professional, they have many issues... and the lack of editing (especially for someone who claims to be very good at photoshop) is odd. If you can't look at them and see what is wrong, how can you edit them correctly? I assume you are good at PS as in Graphic Design or something? Good at the software, but not really good at applying that toward photography?

If you want to look professional, only put up edited and well shot images... not a hodge podge of casual snapshots. (not trying to be rude... just giving my opinion)


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

I REALLY thank you guys for all the advice you've given. Yes i've used photoshop for drawings but i've also used it to touch up photography from time to time (pictures are long gone) I'm not wanting to make this a full time career but more of a part time thing. I just finished university and needed something to do while i'm looking to find a job (it's going to be a lonngg while)  I really want to do this for the learning experience more than anything because i really love photography. The price for the job was set at £40 and to be honest i don't care much about payment. Some money is nice but i'd never rip them off intentionally. I was confident in doing this because i DO have the time to deliver the best photos that i can possibly do (i'm not looking to charge any money to have the images processed). I'm going to send them an email telling them that i'm not a professional and will still be willing to do the job with a smaller price.

Here's their site to give you an idea of the type of images they already have. I'm going to take the effort to make this work. I'll start taking shots and going through the process of editing them and replacing them with the snaps i already have there.


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## manaheim (Jun 7, 2013)

L40 total???  Seriously.

Holy crap, no.

Look, this is the last thing I'm going to say and then I'm going to bail out because you're following the standard pattern that everyone else here tends to and I don't see any real point in swirling around the drain on the topic, but seriously...

You're making a mistake.  You're walking into a job unprepared and going to work so cheap that they're going to treat you like an indentured servant.  You are almost GUARANTEED to have more frustrations and problems with this than would EVER be worth the 40 you'll "earn".  All the thoughts in your head about "but this is my first job!" and "but I'll get more work from them!"... throw them away.  Unless you want to have your part time job here be really annoying work for people who don't respect you or your time and who are going to walk all over you, this is NOT the way to approach this.


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 7, 2013)

would you hire a mechanic to fix your car if he said he's never worked on your type of car but hes going to use it as a learning experiment?


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

40 Per Hour, not total and good point. I'm unprepared and you've guys got me worrying. I'm going to get out of this before it's too late.


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## manaheim (Jun 7, 2013)

OH!

Ok, sorry... god I thought you meant 40 total and my jaw hit the floor.

40/hr seems a little on the cheap side, but not at all bad.  But then this opens up the whole "how many hours minimum, do you charge for travel time, yadda yadda" conversation.  Again... preparedness.


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

Yeah i see the amount of 'preparedness' that CAN happen in such things. But the place is relatively close to me. Most of you guys are pros and do it for a living so you factor in travelling expenses, wear and tear of the camera, and then you charge for processing images. It's only really important if you do factor these things in. I don't care about travelling as i'm walking there (takes 15 minutes) and it's only going to be for 4 hours. They told me that it can vary depending on how many garments they get on the day so i simply told them that i charge by the hour so if it takes more than 4 hours then i expect payment for it the additional time. Simples.


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## manaheim (Jun 7, 2013)

Have you ever learned something that, upon learning it, you later realized how little you knew and how astonishingly naïve you were about it?

This is one of those things.

If you think it's simple, then you're in that mode of not knowing what you don't know.

It's not simple.


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## manaheim (Jun 7, 2013)

Ok I said I was going to be done and I've sort of failed that.  I've given you some ideas that I hope will be helpful.  The rest is up to you to research and prepare.

Good luck.


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## JClishe (Jun 7, 2013)

The most important factor to delivering quality images of their clothing is lighting. You mentioned they have 2 light sources which you said are umbrellas. Umbrellas aren't lights, they're modifiers. So, do they actually have lights or just umbrellas? If they do have lights, how are you planning on firing them? Do you have experience with off camera flash? Do you know how to set your cameras aperture and shutter speed for off camera flash? Do you know your cameras sync speed? Do you know how to control ambient light Vs flash with your aperture and shutter speed? If you take the first picture and there's a black bar covering half the image on the LCD screen, do you know what common mistake you've just made and how to fix it? 

I cannot possibly stress enough how inadvisable it is to attempt off camera flash for the first time while in front of a client on a paid shoot. This gets all my nope's.


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## jamesbjenkins (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie said:


> it's not my type of thing and i've never done it before.
> 
> ...What do you think?



Your words sum it up perfectly. NEVER practice on a paid client. They are likely expecting an experience professional and deliverables that reflect that. Politely decline this job, walk away, practice, learn, grow, repeat.

This has disaster written all over it.


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

Yep, which is why i've declined the job. This thread has opened my eyes a lot.


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## MLCIII (Jun 7, 2013)

At least you saved yourself from having to chop off all those pretty girls' heads.


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## ronlane (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie, I applaud you for the decision. It's takes fortitude to set pride aside as you have done. Keep practicing and stay around here and learn. You have shown a great attitude despite all that has been thrown at you in this thread.


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

ronlane said:


> MrPie, I applaud you for the decision. It's takes fortitude to set pride aside as you have done. Keep practicing and stay around here and learn. You have shown a great attitude despite all that has been thrown at you in this thread.



It was tough and i felt like crap when i read those comments but i knew i was probably getting myself into a mess. I'm going to keep practicing and find some students who need photos taken for free. Best way to move on and up.



MLCIII said:


> At least you saved yourself from having to chop off all those pretty girls' heads.



I already saw some pictures on their website of heads chopped off.


http://puu.sh/3an5H.jpg 

(MrPie, TPF does not permit the posting of images to which the poster does not hold rights/permission; I've changed it to a link for you)

So yeah... :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## nycphotography (Jun 7, 2013)

I would add:

Money back guarantee for the first job.  If they can't use the results, then you don't charge them.

That way, even if you're in over your head, drowning can be a learning experience for you, and at cost to them.


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

nycphotography said:


> I would add:
> 
> Money back guarantee for the first job. If they can't use the results, then you don't charge them.
> 
> That way, even if you're in over your head, drowning can be a learning experience for you, and at cost to them.


BAD plan!  Just opens the door to all sorts of "They're not good enough, but if you reduce the price" complaints from the client.


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

MrPie said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> > MrPie, I applaud you for the decision. It's takes fortitude to set pride aside as you have done. Keep practicing and stay around here and learn. You have shown a great attitude despite all that has been thrown at you in this thread.
> ...


Well, if that's a sample of the sort of work they're using, I would stay away from it even if you were an expert.  Why?  Because in my experience, the the poorer the quality work a company uses, the more they complain.  I have a feeling if you had taken this on you would have walked out owing them money.  As Ron said, I applaud your decision to walk away!

So...  having sorted that out, doing a bang-up job of images like this isn't terribly difficult, once you've practiced it and developed a system.  What you want (or what they were trying to acheive I think) was what is known as high-key lighting.  That is, a bright, clean, shadow-free image on a white background.  The ideal set-up for this consists of a roll of white seamless paper on a background stand, three lights, three lightstands and one large soft-box and lots of room.  To shoot full-body high-key I would want at least a 20' deep space.  

Position  your background against the far wall and bring your paper out at least 10' so that it has a gentle curve and then meets the floor, laying flat for at least 5' (all distances approximate).  Tape the paper down with white gaffer's tape and then position one light on either side of the paper pointing at the opposite side of the background (ie, the light on the right is pointed at the left side of the paper and vice-versa) and at a distance and hieght so that they illuminate the whole background.  Make sure that you have enough paper on the floor so that your model will be at least 2-3' in front of these lights, and use reflectors, gobos or whatever to ensure that no light spills toward the model.

Mark a point in the middle of the paper a couple of feet back from the front edge for your model to stand, and then figure out where you need to stand to get the right perspective at whatever focal length you are using.  Mark your spot with a piece of tape.  Now, position your third light just to the right or left of where you're going to stand facing the model and at a height so that it's pointing slightly down, say 10-15 off of vertical (this is your key or main light).

Now, using either light meter, or a stand-in model (both preferably), set your key light so that it gives you the exposure you want at 1/200 and f8 (or whatever aperture/SS you like, those are nice, safe, generic numbers) and your base ISO.  Once you've got that dialed in, then set your background lights so that they are 1/3 - 1/2 stop brighter.  

Now you can bring them in assembly-line style.  "Stand on the 'X' please, face the light, head up, chin out..." *click*  *click*  *click*, turn to your left please...  repeat.  Next!"   With a little practice and the right gear (which does NOT have to cost a lot) you can set this up in 10-15 minutes and turn out images that will literally need less than a minute of post-processing each.


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## ronlane (Jun 7, 2013)

And John just gave you a full day training session for free and it didn't take all day. Thanks John


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

ronlane said:


> And John just gave you a full day training session for free and it didn't take all day. Thanks John



:er:


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## ronlane (Jun 7, 2013)

^^^don't bill me for it. I'm just reading, learning and commenting on it.


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## MrPie (Jun 7, 2013)

tirediron said:


> Wall of very useful text!



I think i found my perfect site for learning photography. That was awesome advise.

I guess i just found another reason for staying away from them, thanks (again). 


This is there set location. I know someone was asking for lights and i forgot to mention that they were on the umbrella. As you can see the place is SMALL No more than 3 meters long. 

Set - Imgur

Just curious now, what would you guys do if you were given this kind of place to do a photoshoot?


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## tirediron (Jun 7, 2013)

Those look like continous lights; definitely NOT the best option for shooting people.  Very low light output (even though they appear bright) and they tend to get hot over time (hence the nickname 'hotlights').  Looks like a very mickey-mouse operation to me.  You could definitely make a 10' space work, but it would be a challenge - if I felt that the client was reasonable, and was someone I could work with, I'd do the job, probably tape white seamless to the wall, light the subject and deal with the background in post (which I would explain at the consult. and would cost them more).


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## 12sndsgood (Jun 7, 2013)

Me, If I saw that setup i'd as to do the shoot at my house where I had the room to work. With my own gear.


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## nycphotography (Jun 7, 2013)

tirediron said:


> nycphotography said:
> 
> 
> > I would add:
> ...



Perhaps.  But he would also (have) gained valuable experience.  A better plan is of course to hold off and learn more.  But sometimes those avenues for learning are not so available.  By doing the day's work, he'd almost certainly have not been paid, and they wouldnt use the images.  But the process of getting to that point would have been valuable.  IE, how to feel your way through that kind of negotiation.

Either way, respect is due for recognizing when to back away.


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