# Why don't people like program mode?



## Senor Hound

A lot of people on here put down program mode, and I don't get why.  Its not an idiot setting, its just as capable as aperture or shutter.  With the program shift, you can go to whatever aperture or shutter speed you want (without possibly over or under developing the photo), and its like having both shutter mode and aperture mode on at the same time.  I think its a bad idea if you use its suggestion without taking into consideration your subject (and environment), but used in its correct way, I think its far from an idiot setting.

But I'm not a very technical photographer.  I understand what the numbers mean, how they work, and from there, I just make the photo how I want it.  I don't really contemplate f-stop settings while taking a photo, I just tell myself how shallow or deep I want the DOF, and tune to an approximate setting (I find a few tiny steps of f-stop USUALLY does not compromise the integrity of what I'm trying to convey).

So, can someone who is anti-program mode tell me why they are that way?  Am I missing out on something, or what?


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## Battou

Because I like taking pictures.


I don't like pushing a button and having a little black box do it all.


On a slightly less personal note.....

Program mode is an idiot setting. In experienced hands it's almost useless, but can be pushed to it's limits, However such a derogatory or otherwise term develops biased on it's application and not it's potential. So as long as dSLRs are being sold to novices who never try to learn how to use the camera and leave it in program mode, the sentiment will always remain that it is an idiot setting because the number of applications sways heavy to the inexperienced side in comparison to the number of those who know how use it to it's potential.


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## Bevel Heaven

Hey Battou, if you are going to call people idiots, you might want to at least spell your words correctly while doing so....  There are at least a half dozen mis spelled words there friend.

I always though "P" was for "Professional" anyways


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## Battou

Bevel Heaven said:


> Hey Battou, if you are going to call people idiots, you might want to at least spell your words correctly while doing so....  There are at least a half dozen mis spelled words there friend.
> 
> I always though "P" was for "Professional" anyways



I'm not calling people idiots, I am merely using the same terminology used in the previous post, and I suck at spelling...always have.


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## Miaow

I use program mode a bit - I rather use that than Auto - It and manual would probably be the main 2 that I use


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## Dubious Drewski

What does program mode do anyway?  How is it different from green mode? Why would I use it instead of a priority mode?  I've never looked into what it is, so I'm seriously asking.


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## Zoolfoos

Wow... this doesn't need to be such a personal argument.

In my experience "P" mode and other such automation can be a very good feature on an SLR. Sure, SLRs are being marketed to a much wider audience now - but that's not so terrible. I work at a newspaper, and a lot of the reporters have SLRs. Some of them don't care much at all about learning the technicalities (they are of the writing tribe after all), and when a dedicated photographer can't make it to something they want coverage of, they have to do it themselves. It gets the job done when all they need is a printable image.


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## Josh66

Dubious Drewski said:


> What does program mode do anyway?  How is it different from green mode? Why would I use it instead of a priority mode?  I've never looked into what it is, so I'm seriously asking.


I want to know too.  The only difference I knew of was that you can shoot RAW in program, but not in Auto (green box).


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## Miaow

With P the camera will set the appeture and speed automatically - but you can change your ISO/whitebalance/exposure compensation/metering mode

With Auto - You cant alter any of those - everythings Auto - Also the flash will automatically operate if it thinks its too dark which can be annoying when you don't want it to :/

You can also change your user defined picture styles using P and you cant do that with auto also.


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## Battou

O|||||||O said:


> I want to know too.  The only difference I knew of was that you can shoot RAW in program, but not in Auto (green box).



That was my understanding as well...If it's incorrect I would very much like to know as well.

*EDIT*


Miaow said:


> With P the camera will set the appeture and speed automatically - but you can change your ISO/whitebalance and exposure compensation/metering mode
> 
> With Auto - You cant alter any of those - everythings Auto - Also the flash will automatically operate if it thinks its too dark which can be annoying when you don't want it to :/
> 
> You can also change your user defined picture styles using P and you cant do that with auto also.



In other words it operates just like my C-series Kodak at it's maximum manual adjustment, (with the exception of RAW ability).


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## Alex_B

On canon SLRs the P mode in terms of automation is very similar to Av and Tv (aperture and shutter priority). I used to use it a lot and I don't think it is an idiot's mode. These days I use the aperture priority or shutter priority mode more often.

It is true, that if you use Av, Tv, or P with the exposure correction, then you are basically setting two parameters, which allows the similar freedom in exposure as the manual mode.

I only use full manual (then combined with spot metering) in complicated light, or when shooting landscapes sometimes.


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## Alex_B

Dubious Drewski said:


> What does program mode do anyway?  How is it different from green mode? Why would I use it instead of a priority mode?  I've never looked into what it is, so I'm seriously asking.



In full auto, can you still vary shutter and aperture? in P you can ...


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## Senor Hound

Battou said:


> Because I like taking pictures.
> 
> 
> I don't like pushing a button and having a little black box do it all.
> 
> 
> On a slightly less personal note.....
> 
> Program mode is an idiot setting. In experienced hands it's almost useless, but can be pushed to it's limits, However such a derogatory or otherwise term develops biased on it's application and not it's potential. So as long as dSLRs are being sold to novices who never try to learn how to use the camera and leave it in program mode, the sentiment will always remain that it is an idiot setting because the number of applications sways heavy to the inexperienced side in comparison to the number of those who know how use it to it's potential.




It doesn't do it all for you, though.  It only offers a suggested setting which you can either use, or program shift to your preference.  Although you can only choose settings at the appropriate light level, it isn't restricting as much as its helpful in weeding out what might possibly be a mistake on the user's part.

The only reason I can see anyone wanting to use manual mode, is if you are wanting to use a hand-held light meter for more accuracy.  Either that, or you don't trust your camera's system, in which case you should possibly purchase a camera you do feel confident in assisting you (its only trying to help you).  

Do people think that manually coming up with the correct exposure settings (based on the camera's light meter as a guide) is more accurate than allowing the computer in the camera to do it for you?  It shouldn't if you are using the same light meter data the computer is.

Once again, people should do whatever they want (that's what makes it fun), but I don't find program mode to be an idiot mode at all.  99% of the time its just as capable of producing great photos as any other setting.  And for the other 1%, they can usually still be photographed in program if you know your computer, by using cool features like spot metering, altering contrast levels, and tuning your exposure a half step here or there.

Edited to add, that program mode is by no means auto mode.  the two are VERY, VERY different.  One uses autoflash and doesn't allow for altering of either f-stop or shutter speed, while the other one lets you customize exposure compensation, aperture, shutter speed and everything else.


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## Alex_B

Senor Hound said:


> I
> The only reason I can see anyone wanting to use manual mode, is if you are wanting to use a hand-held light meter for more accuracy.  Either that, or you don't trust your camera's system, in which case you should possibly purchase a camera you do feel confident in assisting you (its only trying to help you).



I have to disagree here though.

In particular if you want consistent exposures on several shots, then yo uwould go for manual, set it the way you want it and then shoot without bothering what actually is in front of the meter at the moment I pull the trigger.

As an example, manual is very useful in sports events with floodlight. you can just set the exposure correctly once and shoot and shoot and shoot without bothering anymore. 


Also, in complicated light exposure is always a compromise, so one usually spot meters at several parts of the scene, and then decides for some compromise exposure. No camera can do that sort of brainwork for you. And doing this in any of the semi-auto modes is hard sometimes.


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## Senor Hound

Alex_B said:


> I have to disagree here though.
> 
> In particular if you want consistent exposures on several shots, then yo uwould go for manual, set it the way you want it and then shoot without bothering what actually is in front of the meter at the moment I pull the trigger.
> 
> As an example, manual is very useful in sports events with floodlight. you can just set the exposure correctly once and shoot and shoot and shoot without bothering anymore.
> 
> 
> Also, in complicated light exposure is always a compromise, so one usually spot meters at several parts of the scene, and then decides for some compromise exposure. No camera can do that sort of brainwork for you. And doing this in any of the semi-auto modes is hard sometimes.



I admit your first reasoning is something I hadn't thought about.  I would be a bit freaked using manual all day without checking my light.  It would make more sense to me to shoot with an aperture or shutter setting like this, so I could make sure I was properly exposed without having to think about the shot (wide receivers run too fast to think about shots).

With the contrasting scene, I usually spot meter a "neutral" spot (or one I feel is neutral, and then use exposure compensation and get shots at certain steps above and below.  With instant visual feedback, program mode is better than before.  Manual would work also, but my point is not that manual is bad, its that program mode is good, and isn't limiting like so many think it is.


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## Battou

Senor Hound said:


> It doesn't do it all for you, though.  It only offers a suggested setting which you can either use, or program shift to your preference.  Although you can only choose settings at the appropriate light level, it isn't restricting as much as its helpful in weeding out what might possibly be a mistake on the user's part.



You will have to forgive me, I had a slight misunderstanding of program mode. Never the less, I am a person who believes that mistakes can not be corrected untill after they have been made. I do not shoot regularly with modern cameras by choice, so it seems absolutely forign to me that people would allow their camera to tell them how to set up a shot and then change somethings to better suit their goals to avoid a mistake.


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## Alex_B

Senor Hound said:


> I admit your first reasoning is something I hadn't thought about.  I would be a bit freaked using manual all day without checking my light.



Done it at horse races and rugby matches ... works like a charm. If you still have natural light, you should of course check exposure from time to time if the weather changes 



> its that program mode is good, *and isn't limiting* like so many think it is.



It is not limiting, true, I said so in an earlier post 

But Horses for Courses ... there is a time for manual and there are times for P, Av and Tv


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## Senor Hound

Alex_B said:


> Done it at horse races and rugby matches ... works like a charm. If you still have natural light, you should of course check exposure from time to time if the weather changes
> 
> It is not limiting, true, I said so in an earlier post
> 
> But Horses for Courses ... there is a time for manual and there are times for P, Av and Tv



Yes, there is!   [/point]


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## Alex_B

Battou said:


> so it seems absolutely forign to me that people would allow their camera to tell them how to set up a shot and then change somethings to better suit their goals to avoid a mistake.



But it is not that the camera makes any decision. The camera only meters , but you decide *where* in the scene it meters. This is much like with a handheld light meter! And then, in P mode you can select an aperture or shutter speed and the camera will calculate the corresponding shutter speed of aperture respectively. Just the same as you do in your brain or with a calculator. That is just a formal value. and then you decide, if it would be wise to deviate from the given exposure. it is not about compensating an error the camera would make.


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## Battou

Like I said, I am naive in modern cameras and program mode shooting. The closest I have that seems comparable to a dSLRs program mode is a POS digital p-shooter and my experience with SLRs. Naturally I assume that I use the point and shoot at it's most manual abilities it would be similar with the exception being it's lack of some SLR capabilities. So my ideology is based on turn the camera on, switch from auto ISO to 400, adjust WEB, set 2 sec exposure, look at screen make sure it's right adjust again if needed and push the button.

What all am I missing here, fill me in. 

If you are curious I remember exactly what shot that was too.

I also must admit I am a little spoiled by the constant metering of my primary SLR, I assumed it beacme common, but now I am beginning to wonder.


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## Miaow

Battou said:


> Like I said, I am naive in modern cameras and program mode shooting. The closest I have that seems comparable to a dSLRs program mode is a POS digital p-shooter and my experience with SLRs. Naturally I assume that I use the point and shoot at it's most manual abilities it would be similar with the exception being it's lack of some SLR capabilities. So my ideology is based on turn the camera on, switch from auto ISO to 400, adjust WEB, set 2 sec exposure, look at screen make sure it's right adjust again if needed and push the button.



Being someone that uses P quite a bit - If I knew I wanted a long exposure ie 2 seconds I myself would use Manual so I could alter the Appeture to what ever I wanted easily.  (I don't have an ND filter so I tend to use appeture &i so a bit to control light)


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## Battou

Miaow said:


> Being someone that uses P quite a bit - If I knew I wanted a long exposure ie 2 seconds I mayself would use Manual so I could alter the Appeture to what ever I wanted easily.  (I don't have an ND filter so I tend to use appeture&iso a bit to control light)



Apriture is one of those SLR abilities that particular camera does not have manual control over, and actually now that I think about it, that one was only 0.5 sec shutter speed, it was a more reasent shot that was 2 sec....but anywho, I am just trying to figure out how comperable what I do have is to the program mode being being discussed here.


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## Miaow

Battou said:
			
		

> Apriture is one of those SLR abilities that particular camera does not have manual control over, and actually now that I think about it, that one was only 0.5 sec shutter speed, it was a more reasent shot that was 2 sec....but anywho, I am just trying to figure out how comperable what I do have is to the program mode being being discussed here.



I have a kodak C743 as well  - Its sorta comparable I spose in a way as in you are able to change the exposure comp, ISO, WB and shutter speed manually when you want true though appeture changing, true, isnt an option on that lol

Though with P on an SLR you sorta know the shot will work a lot better than a P&S would do it.  There's is ALOT more control over a picture in P than you would get using a P&S


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## Battou

Miaow said:


> I have a kodak C743 as well  - Its sorta comparable I spose in a way as in you are able to change the exposure comp, ISO, WB and shutter speed manually when you want true though appeture changing, true, isnt an option on that lol
> 
> Though with P you sorta know the shot will work a lot better than a P&S would do it



Ah, that helps considerably, thank you.

I've squeezed a couple shots out fo that C-743 that I would consider comperable to what I can do with an SLR...that was the only way to do it really... 

Ironically enough, no mater how many times I do it, I keep forgetting that LT resets most settings on that camera...


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## Mav

All of these "_you're stupid if you do it this way_" threads show is that people have a fundamental lack of tolerance for the zillions of types of photographic styles out there, and the multitude of different ways in which people can enjoy this hobby, or use their cameras.  If you don't do it MY way, YOU're stupid.  Yeah ok, whatever.  I'll have to dig out some of the great photos I've taken with my camera on "P" mode, and then just laugh silently when they call me stupid for having used "P" mode while ignoring the great photo. 

I'm on board with frowning upon someone who buys a modern DSLR and never leaves the *Green dummy Auto mode* setting, but "P" mode?  Come on... :thumbdown:


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## Alex_B

Mav said:


> All of these "_you're stupid if you do it this way_" threads show is that people have a fundamental lack of tolerance for the zillions of types of photographic styles out there, and the multitude of different ways in which people can enjoy this hobby, or use their cameras.  If you don't do it MY way, YOU're stupid.  Yeah ok, whatever.  I'll have to dig out some of the great photos I've taken with my camera on "P" mode, and then just laugh silently when they call me stupid for having used "P" mode while ignoring the great photo.
> 
> I'm on board with frowning upon someone who buys a modern DSLR and never leaves the *Green dummy Auto mode* setting, but "P" mode?  Come on... :thumbdown:



Hey, we have settled this dispute anyway and reached some agreement


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## Battou

Alex_B said:


> Hey, we have settled this dispute anyway and reached some agreement



yeah, it's still my fault though....I kinda blew this one up


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## Mav

Alex_B said:


> Hey, we have settled this dispute anyway and reached some agreement


Figured! 

My response was only towards the OP though, not anything anybody else might have said.


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## Miaow

Battou said:


> Ironically enough, no mater how many times I do it, I keep forgetting that LT resets most settings on that camera...



Yes it does :/ I also hated the fact you can't use ISO or exposure compensation with it.


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## Mav

"P" mode FTW! 







Took this just a month after getting my D80 when I was still pretty clueless and learning.  I knew enough about shutter speeds and how to compensate for exposure, but that's it.  I set the camera to "P" mode, and then used AUTO ISO (another dummy mode ) to maintain a minimum shutter speed of 1/60s.  Point it at something bright and it'll ramp up the shutter speed and stop down the lens a bit to whatever it needs to be.  Point it at something dark and it'll open the lens aperture fully and bottom out at 1/60s, and then start ramping up the ISO from 100 to 1600.  Only once it bottoms out at your specified minimum SS (in this case 1/60s) will it start dropping the shutter speed.  You could literally walk around all day with those settings from dawn till dusk and get a ton of great photos and concentrate mostly on the scenes and composition, and not worry about how your camera is set.  Being a clueless newb, in fact I did just that! 

BTW, that photo was from a _moving_ open top tour bus going over bumpy roads.  I saw the scene rounding a corner, pointed the camera and fired.  A second later the bus had made the turn and the view was gone.  WOOT! 


Another "P" mode shot.






In this case I saw 1/8s in the viewfinder and it was already topped out at iso1600, so I knew to hold the camera as steady as possible and take 3 or 4 shots to ensure that I got a sharp one.  I took 3, and sure enough one of them (this one) was sharp.

Most of the photos from this Paris trip back in 2006 were in P mode, I really didn't have a clue, but knew the basics, and still got outstanding photos.  Hey if it works it works! :lmao: :hail:

Oh, those were all with the 18-55 *kit* lens too, so while I'm at it, KIT LENS FTW! lol


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## Battou

Miaow said:


> Yes it does :/ I also hated the fact you can't use ISO or exposure compensation with it.



yeah...it's a real pain in the neck when taking shots like this, I think it might be time to upgrade to something a little better for shooting shots that contain my two most commonly used cameras.


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## JerryPH

Geeze MAV, imagine how much better that pic could have come out in manual!  

Auto modes are for people that are either lazy or don't understand how to best exploit their cameras.  

Simple as that.


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## Mav

JerryPH said:


> Auto modes are for people that are either lazy or don't understand how to best exploit their cameras.
> 
> Simple as that.


So you believe that about "_*[size=+1]P[/size]*_" mode?


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## JerryPH

Mav said:


> So you believe that about "_*[SIZE=+1]P[/SIZE]*_" mode?


 
As it applies to the D200? Yes. 

I know that P mode means different things on a Canon, though, but its still a more automated mode to help along people to make decisions for them based on the standards of some unknown engineer in Japan instead of knowing what to do themselves by setting it to full manual mode. Even shutter and aperture priority modes are compromise modes, but that is more to save time rather than make all the decisions for you.

Heck I use P-mode on my D200, again, when lazy or when what I am shooting is not critical.  More and more I am in full manual mode when doing portraiture or important family pictures.


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## mrodgers

It's all quite simple for me.  Exposure lock and focus lock is all with the shutter for me.  So, I can't separate them.  I can expose on the grass or whatnot, but my focus will also be on the grass.

Manual, you meter wherever you want and set the camera.  Then focus on your subject, recompose the shot, and shoot.

Even using aperture or shutter priority is difficult with my camera.  Simply because I can not separate the exposure and focus locks.


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## Sarah23

I havent even used "P" mode, so I didnt even know what it did really. I just figured it was a bit more auto then Av or TV, but a little better then FULL auto. 

I still dont think I really understand what it does  I just use TV, AV or Manual.


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## Mystwalker

Always thought "P" was some kind of advance Auto mode so never used it.  Camera was in auto when I got it, I went straight from there right to Av, Tv, and M.

But from reading this thread, sounds like "P" is a bit more complex - have to try it when I get home.


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## Early

Mystwalker said:


> Always thought "P" was some kind of advance Auto mode so never used it.  Camera was in auto when I got it, I went straight from there right to Av, Tv, and M.
> 
> But from reading this thread, sounds like "P" is a bit more complex - have to try it when I get home.


I always thought P as the panic mode for when you get baffled by all the settings.

Really, though, I consider it a beginners mode until you learn what what different aperture and shutter settings will do, my reason being, why lock yourself into what the camera wants to give you.


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## mrodgers

When I first got my camera, I thought all the same as the 3 posts above.  I thought it was the same as Auto, but allowed me to specify ISO, WB, etc.  It wasn't until after I started understanding a bit about shutter and aperture and I started using A and S modes that I learned it was Program _Shift_ mode and you could shift the settings around.

I first used P mode when I bought my camera just to force the ISO to where I wanted (auto ISO up to 1600 on a superzoom is NOT good...).

Since reading some of _Understanding Exposure_, I haven't moved out of manual except for some apple tree blossoming with the bees that I used aperture priority yesterday.

It's been 5 months now, and I'm _still_ learning a ton though.


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## caspertodd

Early said:


> Really, though, I consider it a beginners mode until you learn what what different aperture and shutter settings will do, my reason being, why lock yourself into what the camera wants to give you.


 
Exactly.  That is the boat I am in now.  I am new to photography, and really had no clue what settings did what.  The 'P' mode on my Canon gave me a chance to learn things a little easier by allowing me to make simple changes and see the affect.  I haven't received the books I've ordered yet to truely learn the basics.  I have since moved on to Tv and Av so that I can take "portraits" of my daughter or take a picture of my dog running 70mph to get a frisbee.  I am by no means an idiot (my wife may argue otherwise,) but I'm thankful for the P mode... I wouldn't have the small understanding that I do now.


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## Bevel Heaven

P mode is specifically for when you have something happen that you can;t set up for......  click it on P and start shooting so you don;t miss the shot.

P mode is for having the camera brain make intelligent decisions for you if you want to tweak some settings for a specific look or feel to your photo say, a shallow DPF or whatever and you are not the walking talking encyclopedia for everything photo related.

P mode is for those that want to LEARN what happens when you do THIS or THAT with the other settings, said another way, IF you make this change, then THAT change might also be needed.  You take note, you think about it, you READ YOUR MANUAL or another useful HOW TO photography book..........  hint hint nudge nudge...........

The above applies to P on NIKON - I have no knowledge on anything beyond that [canon is a foreign language to me etc].


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## usayit

P and every other mode are just tools.  The tools don't define the artist.

If P mode or Auto mode help your creativity, so be it.


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## Jon0807

I always thought _*I *_was an idiot when I tried to use P or any of the auto modes simply because most of my pictures never came out exactly how I wanted them.  I just never got the hang of any sort of auto or "P" mode so I stuck with either full manual, Av or Tv which is ashame.  My 40D comes with 15 different modes and I've only used 3 of them.  I feel like I'm not using my camera to it's fullest potential or taking advantage of all it's capabilities.


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## usayit

Jon0807 said:


> I always thought _*I *_was an idiot when I tried to use P or any of the auto modes.....



You shouldn't feel like an idiot.  Sometimes, the intent is to make you feel like that... don't ask me why...

When and If you decide that you need the extra control, you will gravitate towards the other modes.  Until then just simply enjoy shooting.


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## Harmony

For me, P mode is the same as A. 

When I use manual lenses (d200), I want A mode, but I can't, because the aperture is manually set. So I set it to P: shutter speed is automatic, aperture is set. And when P doesn't work, it's only a few clicks away to M.


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## Antithesis

I didn't want to sift throught the last 5 novels on this thread, but I think I have an appropriate answer for this question:

Program mode is *not* an idiot mode, but is actually very efficient. It's as useful as manual mode, except you can adjust aperture or shutter speed, and you will get a continual equivalent exposure. I haven't played with it too much as I usually shoot in manual, but it seems like you could be quicker to adjust your settings.

It's a given that the exposure might be off, but if you use compensation like in Tv or Av, it would be fine. It just seems useful because you can make a quick jump to a specific shutter speed without having to adjust aperture and vice versa. Or having to switch modes.


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## Senor Hound

JerryPH said:


> As it applies to the D200? Yes.
> 
> I know that P mode means different things on a Canon, though, but its still a more automated mode to help along people to make decisions for them based on the standards of some unknown engineer in Japan instead of knowing what to do themselves by setting it to full manual mode.



This is a fine attitude to have, as long as you realize 99% of the time the camera will give you the same setting as you got (remember, you can change apertures and shutter speeds in program mode).  The other 1% can be fixed by looking at the photo on back, and using some exposure bracketing (or adjustment).

There is something that puzzles me about your statement above.  You trust the camera to make an accurate reading of the amount of light its receiving, yet you don't trust the non-deviating mathematical formulas the camera calculates in order to get the appropriate levels?  I can TOTALLY understand using manual if you are using a hand-held light meter and basing your shots from it, but this is not the case for almost everyone who uses manual mode.  They trust the camera to give them the raw data, yet they don't trust the camera (a computer, mind you) to analyze the data and give them correct results?  This seems illogical to me.

Determining the amount of light your camera takes in has nothing to do with art, it is totally physics-based.  If you take a specific constant amount of sunlight (x amount of lumens) and use the same ISO and aperture on 100 shots in a row, you will need the same shutter speed for EVERY SINGLE SHOT (all outside factors constant).  Its science, and it will be the same today, tomorrow, and probably for the next billion years.

Personally, I feel manual is for people who aren't trusting their in-camera light meter, or people who get a greater feeling of accomplishment when they don't let the camera help them (even though these same people probably try to line up the shot with the ev meter in their viewfinder).  Either way, program mode is just as effective.


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## Jedo_03

JerryPH said:


> As it applies to the D200? Yes.
> 
> ...(E)ven shutter and aperture priority modes are compromise modes, but that is more to save time rather than make all the decisions for you.
> 
> Heck I use P-mode on my D200, again, when lazy or when what I am shooting is not critical. More and more I am in full manual mode when doing portraiture or important family pictures.


 
The guy wasn't shooting portraits or an important family picture, though...
He was upstairs on a moving bus... the bus went round a corner... he saw the building... took the shot in P mode... a second later the bus was round the next corner...
Well, I'd like to see you get a shot as good as he got, shooting from a moving bus on a bumpy road in MANUAL - unless you could get the bus driver to throw a few laps round the building while you set it up...
Jedo


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## passerby

I am sorry if there is a post similar to mine. 

I have a coolpix which takes good picture in an instant, and my mobile phone too takes good pictures. The idea of having DSLR for me is to have fun by taking picture my way. I may want to over expose it or underexpose it. And if the pictures come out bad than I just re shoot it while having the fun. If along the way there is something that need to be taken quickly than I leave the picture taking to my greatest saviour - the Al Mighty P.:hail:

So people, hail P and the Greeny at once.


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## Tiberius47

I like P mode because it lets you get a shot off quickly.  The only rule in photography is to get the shot.  You won't miss out on the pulitzer if you say your camera was in P mode.

I don't like P mode because it doesn't give you as much freedom as the semi automatic and manual modes.

If you have time, get it on A, S or M modes.  P mode is a great default mode, so you're always ready.


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## andrew99

I use P mode 95% of the time (Nikon D40 - I'm not sure what the difference would be on Canon).  I think the combination of P mode, Exposure Compensation, and manually setting your ISO gives you enough flexibility and lets you focus on composition and so on, at least once you get used to how the camera's meter reacts.  I use A, S and M only when needed for specific effects (DOF, slow shutter speed, manual flash, etc).


----------



## andrew99

<Ken Rockwell Mode>
While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, I'm busy taking masterpieces in P mode!
</Ken Rockwell Mode>


----------



## Mav

andrew99 said:


> <Ken Rockwell Mode>
> While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, I'm busy taking masterpieces in P mode!
> </Ken Rockwell Mode>


LOL! :mrgreen:


----------



## Early

andrew99 said:


> <Ken Rockwell Mode>
> While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, I'm busy taking masterpieces in P mode!
> </Ken Rockwell Mode>


Chances are, you'll miss more masterpieces locked in P mode.


----------



## notelliot

i'm a pretty spacey person. the more settings i have turned on and off or whatever, the more i forget about. takes me forever to figure out what i did wrong. in manual modes, it's all _right_ in front of you. 

some people use program to their advantage. i can't. 

aside from that, i think Big Mike says it best:



> There is nothing inherently wrong with using automatic modes or settings...as long as you are only letting the technology do the work for you, not the thinking.


----------



## Mav

JerryPH said:
			
		

> Auto modes are for people that are either lazy or don't understand how to best exploit their cameras.
> 
> Simple as that.





			
				Mav said:
			
		

> So you believe that about "_*[size=+1]P[/size]*_" mode?





			
				JerryPH said:
			
		

> As it applies to the D200? Yes.
> 
> I know that P mode means different things on a Canon, though, but its still a more automated mode to help along people to make decisions for them based on the standards of some unknown engineer in Japan instead of knowing what to do themselves by setting it to full manual mode. Even shutter and aperture priority modes are compromise modes, but that is more to save time rather than make all the decisions for you.
> 
> Heck I use P-mode on my D200, again, when lazy or when what I am shooting is not critical. More and more I am in full manual mode when doing portraiture or important family pictures.


OK.  What you call being lazy or not knowing how is what I call being more efficient and using features that are available to you to help you get photos that you'd otherwise miss.  Try chasing a 1 year old around and you'll _KNOW_ what I'm talking about. :lmao:  Not knockin ya, but your typical family shots and garden variety portraiture ain't the same thing period. 

1 year olds go like this :bouncy: and like this :bounce: and like this  and like this  from bright areas to dark areas and back again, don't know to pose, and don't hold still for more than a second, all of which makes your camera settings go like this :crazy: and like this .  P mode can make them go like this: :mrgreen: :thumbup:   Seriously, if your exposure settings aren't already right the instant they hold still, you just missed a shot that's gone forever.  And to know they're holding still or doing something cute enough to take a photo of, you have to be focusing all of your attention on _THEM_ and not looking at what your meter is doing and changing up settings in manual. 


"P" mode on Nikons is pretty smart.  It's smart enough to favor a higher shutter speed at longer focal lengths assuming no VR.  The switchover points are something like <55mm for one map, 55-135mm for another map, and >135mm for the most aggressive map as far as shutter speed.  I'm pretty sure Canon is similar.  If you're not happy with the settings, one click in either direction of the control wheel lets you trade off a stopped down aperture for a larger one and a faster shutter speed to freeze action or for a portrait, or vice versa for stopped down landscape/scenic shots.  If things are slow in general or you don't want to be wide open, just crank up your base ISO a bit and the camera will take care of the rest.  If they're too quick or too stopped down, lower it.

BTW, Nikon _does_ make it easier to use the D200 and higher in full manual mode since they let you adjust exposure settings in full stop increments, including ISO.  They give you a separate menu item for EV, ISO, and compensation step sizes.  On the D80 and lower they group it all into one combo ISO / SS / Ap / ExComp increment setting, and your choices are 1/3rd stops or 1/2 stops.  No option for full stops, which makes full manual shooting in dynamic lighting conditions nearly impossible.  If you point the camera from bright to dark you'll have a much better chance of keeping up with a D200/300 and full stop adjustments steps, but will be furiously wheeling away on a D80 trying to do the same.  It's stupid.  I'd love to be able to get full stop increments on my D80, but am not going to spend double on the D200/300 level cameras just for that.  I'll just learn to adapt the P/S/A (P/Tv/Av) auto modes more to my liking, which is what I've done.  The D40/D50 do give you ISO adjustments in full stops only which is quite handy, but everything else is in small steps only.

Now back to my original point.  Not singling out anybody here, but all of these threads or posts calling people "stupid" for one reason or another are stupid themselves, because everybody has different conditions, different styles, different things they like to shoot, might enjoy a different aspect of photography than you do, and also might have different equipment and lens limitations than you do, thus needing to _shoot and operate equipment differently than you do, for their *own* reasons_.  Duh!

A recent PROGRAM mode shot.







1/320s direct fill flash shot at f/9.  Right after this she went under the gym set in full shade and I didn't want it to look too flashy so I switched the SB-400 off and the shutter speed went way down (but not below my set 1/125s minimum in Auto ISO, another great auto feature for dummies) and the lens aperture opened way up and I just kept on shooting and never had to touch a thing.  Think I'm lazy?  BITE ME 

An assistant and a reflector would have given better and more natural looking fill lighting here, but my "assistant" was busy helping our daughter down the slide just off camera, so dad had to do his own lighting.  I <3 my 1/500s flash sync. :greenpbl:


----------



## Mike_E

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

:hail::hail::hail:


----------



## schuylercat

Well, THIS was a fireball...

"P" mode in the Canon space is a different animal, yes.  Working the pits at a race (twelve years ago...), the lighting changes every second - down under the tents in the mechanics' bays, out in the open in full sun, 5-6 stops of difference.  I would use "P" mode as a safeguard: I was paid real money to capture images of drivers, team owners, etc.  Leaving my camera in aperture or shutter priority (I was ALWAYS in Tv-land when shooting the cars in motion...) was a disaster in the pits.  In "P", an Unser would zip by on his scooter headed to or from the track: the camera came up, and "schpilckzz" I would get "a shot".  From there, if there was time, I'd start flipping the finger wheel (aperture in "P" mode, on my A2) this way or that to try to get "THE shot."  

Come to think of it, I wonder if a lot of paparazzi use "P" mode?  Gawd...

And Mav's point is well taken: I have 5 kids.  I have 1,923,954 photographs of the backs of their heads.  Little monkeys.

It's just a variation on the tool, with a discrete limited purpose.  I don't know that a lot of photographic art may be made using it, but working stiffs will hedge their bets with whatever they have.  Racing photography is hugely saturated, and the business pays so damn little as it is.  I don't recall the Sutton guys standing in the pits at Long Beach, checking the light with their meters, hoping for better sun and fiddling with filters as the day went by - they shot the green box sometimes, and made no bones about it.  The magazines wouldn't forgive an empty box on their pages, and Sutton still rules the roost of racing photography.


----------



## Iron Flatline

Haven't had a chance to read all the responses.

I've been photographing for 25 years, usually all manual, but I respect modern technology. I've seen P next to the A and S modes (both of which I use as well) and I've also wondered if I'm missing out on some good technology...

... but I'm afraid to ask, the mighty Battou might come down on me. I wouldn't want to be considered a noob, an idiot, or worse.

Edit: or JerryPH for that matter...


----------



## Battou

Iron Flatline said:


> Haven't had a chance to read all the responses.
> 
> I've been photographing for 25 years, usually all manual, but I respect modern technology. I've seen P next to the A and S modes (both of which I use as well) and I've also wondered if I'm missing out on some good technology...
> 
> ... but I'm afraid to ask, the mighty Battou might come down on me. I wouldn't want to be considered a noob, an idiot, or worse.
> 
> Edit: or JerryPH for that matter...



I made a mistake, when you get the chance go threw the other posts, I acknowledged my error.

My answer is I don't know


----------



## usayit

Early said:


> Chances are, you'll miss more masterpieces locked in P mode.



I highly doubt that....  P suggests an exposure.. the photographer makes the final decision which can include exposure compensation. 

Program mode is just a freakin tool.. use it wisely it can perform just as well as any other tool/mode.


For once... I agree with Ken Rockwelll (gasp!)


All this talk and no one has made a big deal about relying on matrix metering versus Spot or center!!!!!! sheesh   Or even ignore technology... and use a selenium handheld.. lol


----------



## Senor Hound

usayit said:


> For once... I agree with Ken Rockwelll (gasp!)


 
No doubt!  The guy might be as loud as a motorbike, but he still takes neat photos.  This isn't his opinion, as much as him telling you how he takes what he takes (which if his photos are really in-camera, I'm impressed).

I still don't understand using manual mode, while using the camera's light meter.  To not trust one part of a camera while trusting the other makes NO sense to me.


----------



## Early

usayit said:


> I highly doubt that....  P suggests an exposure.. the photographer makes the final decision which can include exposure compensation.
> 
> Program mode is just a freakin tool.. use it wisely it can perform just as well as any other tool/mode.


Here's my argument, usayit.  If you're in P mode and you suddenly want a smaller aperture, how long will that take you?

P mode's good for noobs, but once you read the book, any book, you're better off in one of the other modes. (I always preferred A mode, switching to manual for extreme lighting.)


----------



## table1349

Iron Flatline said:


> Haven't had a chance to read all the responses.
> 
> I've been photographing for 25 years, usually all manual, but I respect modern technology. I've seen P next to the A and S modes (both of which I use as well) and I've also wondered if I'm missing out on some good technology...
> 
> ... but I'm afraid to ask, the mighty Battou might come down on me. I wouldn't want to be considered a noob, an idiot, or worse.
> 
> Edit: or JerryPH for that matter...



30 + years ago when I started with the lowly Nikon F, P mode meant hurry up and get the shot and then go find a convenient bush. 

There is nothing wrong with technology if you are controlling it.  If however you do not understand the technology and let it control you then that is what photography forum boards are for, to answer questions like: _"Why is the sun always overexposed when I try to take a picture of it at noon on a cloudless day.  I'm using a UV filter?"_


----------



## Mav

Early said:


> Here's my argument, usayit.  If you're in P mode and you suddenly want a smaller aperture, how long will that take you?
> 
> P mode's good for noobs, but once you read the book, any book, you're better off in one of the other modes. (I always preferred A mode, switching to manual for extreme lighting.)


Like I mentioned above, one swing of the control wheel on Nikon DSLRs and you go to "P*" mode which allows you to get a faster shutter speed / larger aperture for action or portraits, or the other way for a slower shutter speed / stopped down aperture for more depth of field while maintaining the same exposure.  Instantaneous and very easy.


----------



## Early

Mav said:


> Like I mentioned above, one swing of the control wheel on Nikon DSLRs and you go to "P*" mode which allows you to get a faster shutter speed / larger aperture for action or portraits, or the other way for a slower shutter speed / stopped down aperture for more depth of field while maintaining the same exposure.  Instantaneous and very easy.


That's something I didn't know.  That makes those cameras just as fast as using A or S mode on other cameras, right?


----------



## usayit

Mav said:


> Like I mentioned above, one swing of the control wheel on Nikon DSLRs and you go to "P*" mode which allows you to get a faster shutter speed / larger aperture for action or portraits, or the other way for a slower shutter speed / stopped down aperture for more depth of field while maintaining the same exposure.  Instantaneous and very easy.



The same with Canon...

Exactly what camera are you using Early?


----------



## Early

usayit said:


> The same with Canon...
> 
> Exactly what camera are you using Early?


I've used the Nikon FA, N90s, Maxxum 700si, 7xi, 9000, x700, probably a few others that I can't remember right now.


----------



## usayit

Early said:


> That's something I didn't know.  That makes those cameras just as fast as using A or S mode on other cameras, right?



pretty much... the difference between A and P is mainly in the thought process of the photographer.

In P mode, the camera makes a best guess at the exposure.  You can "shift" that settings through all the combinations of Aperture and Shutter settings that obtain the same exposure.   The thought process of the photographer is in terms of "relative to the camera's chosen combination".

In Av mode, the photographer thinks in terms of absolute... aperture.  I'd like to shoot a series of photos at an f/5.6 for the scene of my son sitting on this here bench.  The camera's meter determines Shutter setting for a variety of lighting situations at an aperture of f/5.6.  The photographer's mind set is in terms of "story telling" (f/11, f/16 for example),  "subject matter" (f/2, f/4, f/5.6), or "I don't care" (f/8 and be there).  

In Tv shutter mode, the photographer's thought process is focused on motions of subjects.  I'll leave it at that as I don't use shutter priority that often.

To actually change the exposure, you set exposure compensation + or - for 1 to 3 stops.

Folks... what is important to realize is that the final decision is still being made by the photographer.  Control is still in the photographers hands and these are just simply tools in a tool box.  Even Full auto is useful to a certain extent..... it still allows for a decent photo.


I still think it is strange that all this hoopla over this and no one has failed to even mention matrix, versus spot metering (or center weight).  Some of us shoot with cameras that are so simple that you get one metering mode with choice of Aperture or full Manual only.  Hell mine doesn't even AF.... I actually find more enjoyment out of the simplicity kinda like driving a sports car with manual transmissions.  

I do go home with misses though.... but I have no one to blame except myself.  Its part of the enjoyment and education.  What's the most interesting point of a game???  the fact that you can win AND LOSE.   Of course, there are times for that large toolbox as well.


----------



## usayit

Early said:


> I've used the Nikon FA, N90s, Maxxum 700si, 7xi, 9000, x700, probably a few others that I can't remember right now.



I own the Minolta 7000 which was the first successfully marketed AF SLR (first attempt was Pentax ME-F.. own that too).  But I digress. 

 IIRC one of the most advertised features of the 7000 was the ability to program shift.  Your 9000 was the replacement for the 7000 and it too has the same feature.  I'm actually surprised you were not familiar with the "P" mode's ability to shift....


----------



## firecrow

The main problem with these automatic modes is that they don't give you enough control over the image and besides the automatic exposure is always set wrong you will either end up with too many blown out highlights or you will have too much noise in the shadow detail.  What highlights are OK to blow out is totally dependent on the subject and how can the camera "know" that in advance?  Generally as much detail as you can keep in the highlights, this will improve the overall quality of your image.

Manual is actually not that hard, besides metering what you can do is look at the histogram see if there are problems, then adjust and reshoot. (or prepare beforehand with a moving subject). 

I've had success with the "expose to the right" method discussed here: 

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

which basically means just expose as much as you can w/o blowing out highlights (OR having color shifts if one channel blows out ahead of the others), and fix the exposure and the tonal relationships you really want in postprocessing.  The  better the signal-to-noise ratio, the more freedom you will have in postprocessing.

also -- always shoot RAW -- if you underexpose by one stop or so at low ISO, it is easy to fix. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## Antithesis

firecrow said:


> The main problem with these automatic modes is that they don't give you enough control over the image and besides the automatic exposure is always set wrong you will either end up with too many blown out highlights or you will have too much noise in the shadow detail.  What highlights are OK to blow out is totally dependent on the subject and how can the camera "know" that in advance?  Generally as much detail as you can keep in the highlights, this will improve the overall quality of your image.
> 
> Manual is actually not that hard, besides metering what you can do is look at the histogram see if there are problems, then adjust and reshoot. (or prepare beforehand with a moving subject).
> 
> I've had success with the "expose to the right" method discussed here:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml
> 
> which basically means just expose as much as you can w/o blowing out highlights (OR having color shifts if one channel blows out ahead of the others), and fix the exposure and the tonal relationships you really want in postprocessing.  The  better the signal-to-noise ratio, the more freedom you will have in postprocessing.
> 
> also -- always shoot RAW -- if you underexpose by one stop or so at low ISO, it is easy to fix.
> 
> Hope this helps!



Exposure compensation used in junction with Av, Tv or P modes can be more efficient than manual. If your in a situation where you can't be messing around with your settings half the time, then the automatic modes are very useful. One of my friends who's been shooting professionally for four years now uses Av mode almost exclusively. His images are of stellar quality as well. 

If you need to take four thousand shots in a night, it can save you quite a bit of energy if you don't have to futs with your camera every 10 seconds. The same goes for shooting RAW. If you only have ten minutes to take an awesome picture that's absolutely perfect, then shoot in RAW as a safeguard, but otherwise shoot in Jpeg to save time in post. If you spend 30% of your time converting and processing RAW images that won't look that much better than jpegs straight from the camera, you should assess what the real benefits are.


----------



## Mav

Right, just use exposure compensation if the shot review, blinky display, or RGB histograms don't look right.  For most daylight shooting I leave my D40 & D80 parked at -0.7EV and they're fine, but I adjust as needed on the fly to save time later.  Turn on Auto Contrast (Tone Compensation on Nikons) and it'll make sure that you _never_ drop shadow details so much that they can't be recovered.  In contrasty scenes, it'll automatically lower contrast to avoid getting blowouts, and the opposite for low contrast scenes - it'll try to keep the histograms as filled as possible so that you're using as many levels as possible, just as it says to do in that article.  It's built into the cameras (or at least Nikons) more or less.  You definitely don't need to be shooting RAW just to push a photo by one stop either.  That's nothing but a myth.  Highlight recovery yes, but on digital you should be paying attention to that already with shot review, blinky displays, RGB histograms, or whatever you've got.

I have some recent photos of a Chicago sunrise and sunset.  Light was changing rapidly, and exposure was very difficult, but I got it.  Some people thought I _surely_ must have been shooting in RAW and doing HDR merges.  Nope!  Just good settings, _JPEG_, and some very mild tweaking with the right software afterwards!


----------



## Early

usayit said:


> I'm actually surprised you were not familiar with the "P" mode's ability to shift....


I don't remember if I was familiar with it back then.  My X 700 didn't have it, and my FA doesn't.  I was always completely happy with the A mode, so I never bothered with it.... with one exception.  Sometimes my 700si reverts to P mode for some ungodly reason and don't see it until I'm in the middle of a shot.


----------



## Mike_E

Usayit, I tend to stay in Matrix unless there is something in the frame that I want to bring out by nailing the exposure on it.

I also use the spot meter to scope out a room if I'm going manual with the intent to batch process.

You?


----------



## Antithesis

Mav said:


> Turn on Auto Contrast (Tone Compensation on Nikons) and it'll make sure that you _never_ drop shadow details so much that they can't be recovered.  In contrasty scenes, it'll automatically lower contrast to avoid getting blowouts, and the opposite for low contrast scenes - it'll try to keep the histograms as filled as possible so that you're using as many levels as possible, just as it says to do in that article.  It's built into the cameras (or at least Nikons) more or less.



Hmm, I never knew about Auto Contrast. You learn something new every day! I wonder if that's why I blow my highlights so easily. I usually just be super careful or try and bring the shadows back, and if it's too noisy, just run it through Noise ninja and it's fine.

I've been told that certain conversion programs (not ACR) can actually give you more breathing room using a RAW image. I usually use ACR, and therefore have never seen that large of a benefit from RAW (aside from easy WB adjustment of course). I forget what the actual program I was told to use was, but I think it was by Phase One or something. The guy who told me had been working as a freelance for about 10 years and sounded like he knew what he was talking about, so I took it at face value.


----------



## JamesD

I wonder why nobody ever wants to use the DEP mode.  It goes for 18% gray, too.

If you get my drift.


----------



## Mav

Antithesis said:


> Hmm, I never knew about Auto Contrast. You learn something new every day! I wonder if that's why I blow my highlights so easily. I usually just be super careful or try and bring the shadows back, and if it's too noisy, just run it through Noise ninja and it's fine.


Auto Contrast is usually on by default.  It won't prevent blown highlights, but really just prevents you from getting double ended blowouts with lots of pixels piled up at either 255 or 0, like I see on a buddy's 40D from time to time. :blushing:  Quite handy.  All you need to do is keep your eyes on the highlights and auto contrast will take care of the rest.  Active D-Lighting on the newer stuff will supposedly take care of highlights too.


----------



## Rachelsne

With my old camera P was great for my husband, all he had to do was make sure the ISO was set low, as the S3IS was terrible at automatically choosing high on auto.


----------



## Uglulyx Takes Photos Too

Ya i don't have a choice really, mine doesn;t have any shutterspeed options. I set apeture and it sets shutter.


----------



## BrandonS

Well I just 2 days ago tried manual for the first time.  Before that I was doing Aperature and Shutter priority, mostly aperature because I never took shots of moving things.  I for one can't even seem to get my camera to offer me another option other than the original in P mode.  I spin the front and back dials and nothing happens.  So out of stupidity I don't use it. 

However, playing with manual mode, I don't really see how that's any different.  You pick what you want to expose for and move your wheels for Aperature and Shutter speed until your meter reads level.  Unless you're going for something else of course.  But really, P mode accomplishes what your doing, just faster.  Because you'll cycle through the combinations that you'd have to pick in manual mode for the meter to even out.

That's just my opinion w/out ever using P mode and being a newbie to all this.


----------



## usayit

Mike_E said:


> Usayit, I tend to stay in Matrix unless there is something in the frame that I want to bring out by nailing the exposure on it.
> 
> I also use the spot meter to scope out a room if I'm going manual with the intent to batch process.
> 
> You?



On my 1 series SLR, I tend to stay in either Spot with the camera in either P or Av (usually Av) depending on my "mode of thought": Either thinking in terms of Aperture or thinking in terms of shift.  On my other SLRs (Elan IIe), I'll leverage center weighted.  These two modes plus center focus point provides a nice balance between control and automation.  I can explicitly focus on a point, explicitly select metering point, and maintain control over final exposure.  

NOTE: I went from a 10D and ElanII to a 1v and 1d MarkII (both used).  One of the biggest reasons for this decision was the "multi-spot" metering in the 1 series camera.  I cannot stress how important this feature was for me.  NOTHING and I mean NOTHING in the Canon line meters with such control and precision.  You leverage the spot meter to record up to 8 points/readings and the camera evaluates and marks the recommended exposure.  In a pinch, you take readings in dark shadows and bright highlights... details in both are maintained just like magic.  There was a push to "upgrade" to the 5D when it came out... but people just don't understand that there is a lot more to a camera then the sensor and processor.  If it wasn't for the 1 series, I would just stay in center weight metering.   The camera is WELL past the typical DSLR life span.. but I see no need to move to anything else.

The other option which I used for many years was simply a handheld meter with the camera in manual.  In part because a lot of my cameras had no meter or any type of automation.  I still find myself doing this anyway simply because I enjoy it.  Often I'll walk the streets of NYC (for example), pull out my handheld meter, and take an ambient exposure reading over my shoulder.  I set the appropriate shutter/aperture and just simply shoot.... and focus on shooting...  If I shoot into an area of brighter sunlight, I'll stop down a stop or two.  If I shoot into an area that is dimmer, I'll open her up a stop or two. Simple as that.... just taking "baseline" exposure readings every-once-in-a-while with my handheld.  You guys should try it sometime.... Spotmatic, handheld meter, B&W film, 35mm and 50mm lenses.....  it is truely liberating (from the wizbango techno gadgets).  

When things get too fast, I will switch to P, Matrix mode, and activate all the focus points the camera (whopping 45 points in the 1 series).   I don't do this for a living and I am far from a all-star photographer... I will be the first to admit I need help from the camera's automation.  If someone sees this as not "earning" my badge of photographic honor, they can shove a sock in it.  



They are freakin tools... not badges of honor or proof of strength of skill.  The real strength is knowing all the adv/dis of each tool in the box and knowing how to leverage all of them.


----------



## usayit

BrandonS said:


> However, playing with manual mode, I don't really see how that's any different.



Ah.. that's great!  You are experimenting and learning.  More than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## Bevel Heaven

BrandonS

you have to depress the shutter button halfway for things to register so you can affect eithr aperture or shutter speeds


----------



## Joves

I have never used the Program mode. I find myself stuck in Aperture or Manual modes, I guess Im too old to start trusting the camera to take care of things for me. I thought the poster was talking about the Auto Modes which I think are useless.


----------



## AndrewG

I feel programe modes can make you lazy especially with digital where you can fire off a zillion frames and cherry-pick the best to print. I've used fully automated cameras but never felt either fully in control nor entirely confident of the quality of the end result. I've been using my ancient Nikon F3HP in fully manual mode (the only other option is aperture priority auto) with great results for twenty years.
I also take issue with the idea that you're more likely to miss a shot when you need to focus, adjust your apetrure and shutter speed and check your exposure-all within a very short space of time. These are basic skills all photographers had to learn before autofocus/autoexposure were invented and some of the most famous images were shot like this.
As someone said, automation should be a tool to aid creativity, and not convenience.
Having said all that my preference is landscapes where I might have to wait for a long time for just the right light conditions so automation is of no use to me whatsoever!
Hope you didn't mind this input from a noob!


----------



## caspertodd

I thought Scott Kelby had good advice on the P mode in his Digital Photography mode.  He said (don't remember the exact wording) when traveling, it is a good idea to keep your camera in the P mode when not taking pictures so that you can always be ready for anything.  Now that I properly know how to use the other modes, I never use P mode, but I think what he is saying makes sense.


----------



## BrandonS

Bevel Heaven said:


> BrandonS
> 
> you have to depress the shutter button halfway for things to register so you can affect eithr aperture or shutter speeds



I'll try that, thanks.


----------



## KD5NRH

Senor Hound said:


> The other 1% can be fixed by looking at the photo on back, and using some exposure bracketing (or adjustment).



Photo on the back?  All I see is that little window where I can check the ISO.  :greenpbl:

Generally, if I catch myself wondering what to do, I hit P and take the darn picture, (noting what aperture and shutter settings it wanted for reference) then, if the shot is still available, I'll switch back to A or S and figure out what I want to do differently.


----------



## Arch

andrew99 said:


> <Ken Rockwell Mode>
> While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, I'm busy taking masterpieces in P mode!
> </Ken Rockwell Mode>



Sorry but i can't stand Rockwell and this is another phrase of his that just annoys me.
What it should read is 'While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, *my camera* is busy taking *average photos* in P mode!'

I know everyone sees photography differently and i have nothing against people shooting in P mode if it suits thier style of photography....

However, the whole point of photography for me is that i am testing myself... even if my little niece is running around, i want to ask myself 'did i set that up right for the shot?'.... and YES it is hit and miss... thats what photography as a hobby is all about.... its like fishing, its the buzz of getting that one golden opportunity..

If i just used P mode all the time, i may as well buy one of those HD video cameras and next time my niece is around... leave it running for 2 hours... then look for a good frame when watching it back and voila... *i* created a 'masterpiece' as rockwell puts it... :roll:

My advice is.. learn to love your camera... learn from your mistakes... know that when you get a great image it was you who was in control... or even when you get a 'happy accident' (an image that came out better than you thought) know that it is YOU who made the settings.


----------



## Socrates

Early said:


> Here's my argument, usayit. If you're in P mode and you suddenly want a smaller aperture, how long will that take you?


 
A tenth of a second to switch to aperture mode and then a second or two to adjust as desired.


----------



## Socrates

Arch said:


> Sorry but i can't stand Rockwell and this is another phrase of his that just annoys me.
> What it should read is 'While you knob twiddlers are fiddling with shutter speeds and aperture in M mode, *my camera* is busy taking *average photos* in P mode!'
> 
> I know everyone sees photography differently and i have nothing against people shooting in P mode if it suits thier style of photography....
> 
> However, the whole point of photography for me is that i am testing myself... even if my little niece is running around, i want to ask myself 'did i set that up right for the shot?'.... and YES it is hit and miss... thats what photography as a hobby is all about.... its like fishing, its the buzz of getting that one golden opportunity..
> 
> If i just used P mode all the time, i may as well buy one of those HD video cameras and next time my niece is around... leave it running for 2 hours... then look for a good frame when watching it back and voila... *i* created a 'masterpiece' as rockwell puts it... :roll:
> 
> My advice is.. learn to love your camera... learn from your mistakes... know that when you get a great image it was you who was in control... or even when you get a 'happy accident' (an image that came out better than you thought) know that it is YOU who made the settings.


Everything that you said can be said about any automated mode in the camera.  Clearly the only solution is to use full manual 100% of the time.  Is that what you're proposing?


----------



## usayit

I'm with Socrates on that one.

By that train of logic, we should all be shooting with Spotmatics.  Oh gasp... I forgot, Spotmatics have auto return mirror and TTL metering not to mention that fancy more compact format called 35mm negative.  Nix that... we should all be shooting view cameras on silvered glass plates.  

If the PERFECT exposure is f/5.6 @ 1/125, what does it matter whether it was derived using M, P, Tv, Av or any number of metering methods?  

All this squibble over automation but most won't even consider a manual focusing camera/lens anymore....


----------



## Socrates

usayit said:


> I'm with Socrates on that one.
> 
> By that train of logic, we should all be shooting with Spotmatics. Oh gasp... I forgot, Spotmatics have auto return mirror and TTL metering not to mention that fancy more compact format called 35mm negative. Nix that... we should all be shooting view cameras on silvered glass plates.
> 
> If the PERFECT exposure is f/5.6 @ 1/125, what does it matter whether it was derived using M, P, Tv, Av or any number of metering methods?
> 
> All this squibble over automation but most won't even consider a manual focusing camera/lens anymore....


I still have the "Honeywell Pentax" Spotmatic with f/1.4 lens that I bought in 1964. I shoot a small roll once/year just to confirm that it still works fine. I don't know if you remember but it was advertised as "the world's first automatic SLR" because of the auto-return mirror!

The Spotmatic also introduced the ability to automatically stop down the lens prior to opening the shutter. Previously, we relied on "preset" lenses. You would determine correct aperture and set a mechanical preset on the lens. Then, open wide to focus. When you're ready to take the shot, you stop the lens down to the preset value without taking your eye from the viewfinder.

By the way, the Spotmatic with lens sold for $400 in 1964 dollars! All that fancy automation wasn't cheap.


----------



## Chris of Arabia

usayit said:


> If the PERFECT exposure is f/5.6 @ 1/125, what does it matter whether it was derived using M, P, Tv, Av or any number of metering methods?



To a point I'd agree entirely. The only thing to consider at that point is whether it provides the DoF/action freezing ability that the photographer has in mind for the shot.

P mode at the end of the day is just a tool. So long as its abilities are capable of delivering the end result the photographer is looking for, who cares - the same goes for Av, Tv, manual or any other mode. Only once it can't do that does the photog need to explore a little further.

FWIW, I learnt on a screw thread Practika with no meter and the guidelines off the back of a packet of Kodak.

These days I probably mostly use the P mode, anytime I decide I decide to get "serious", I'll get the Sekonic out.


----------



## Alex_B

The thing I learned in this thread is, that the P mode on a Nikon is something totally different from P on a Canon


----------



## Arch

Socrates said:


> Everything that you said can be said about any automated mode in the camera.  Clearly the only solution is to use full manual 100% of the time.  Is that what you're proposing?



Yes.

As i said this is how I see my hobby.



usayit said:


> I'm with Socrates on that one.
> 
> By that train of logic, we should all be shooting with Spotmatics.  Oh gasp... I forgot, Spotmatics have auto return mirror and TTL metering not to mention that fancy more compact format called 35mm negative.  Nix that... we should all be shooting view cameras on silvered glass plates.
> 
> *If the PERFECT exposure is f/5.6 @ 1/125, what does it matter whether it was derived using M, P, Tv, Av or any number of metering methods?
> *
> All this squibble over automation but most won't even consider a manual focusing camera/lens anymore....



This is exactly my point.... yes the perfect exposure may be f/5.6 @ 1/125... what matters is were YOU able to figure that out and get the shot you wanted... that is exactly what im saying... for me i prefer this challenge every time i pick up a camera... if you want the camera to do it for you that's your own preference.


----------



## Alex_B

Arch said:


> This is exactly my point.... yes the perfect exposure may be f/5.6 @ 1/125... what matters is were YOU able to figure that out and get the shot you wanted...



But you DO look at the light meter, don't you? And the meter tells you how to expose, so why should the meter not tell the camera directly and make a suggestion? makes no difference for me since you can still alter that suggestion according to the lighting situation  ... just as you might alter your first guess for you manual exposure which is derived from your meter reading as well.


----------



## Arch

Alex_B said:


> But you DO look at the light meter, don't you? And the meter tells you how to expose, so why should the meter not tell the camera directly and make a suggestion? makes no difference for me since you can still alter that suggestion according to the lighting situation  ... just as you might alter your first guess for you manual exposure which is derived from your meter reading as well.



True.. but as you can see from what i wrote originally, im not saying i don't have technology in my hands... if i were to deny everything it does for me i may as well sit and draw a pencil sketch ...what im saying is, is that i want to feel like im putting the most of myself into a picture.


----------



## Alex_B

Arch said:


> True.. but as you can see from what i wrote originally, im not saying i don't have technology in my hands... if i were to deny everything it does for me i may as well sit and draw a pencil sketch ...what im saying is, is that i want to feel like im putting the most of myself into a picture.



I totally understand that., but I am saying that these half-auto modes actually are modes which only make a suggestion to the photographer. still the photographer does make the decision, so the amount of himself he puts into the image is about the same. at least that is my feeling


----------



## usayit

Socrates said:


> I still have the "Honeywell Pentax" Spotmatic with f/1.4 lens that I bought in 1964. I shoot a small roll once/year just to confirm that it still works fine. I don't know if you remember but it was advertised as "the world's first automatic SLR" because of the auto-return mirror!



Yeh.. being a pentax screwmount collector, I've got a cabinet full of Spotmatics.  Here is the amazing thing.... almost all of them still work.  I've got other cameras of similar vintage and many of them have died.  Truly a wonderful cameras they are... they just don't make'm like they used to.  

btw... the first auto-return camera from Pentax was the Asahiflex IIB (see below).  The Spotmatic was advertised as the world's first automatic SLR since it had auto stop down and metering in addition to the auto-return mirror adopted from the Asahiflex IIB.

Oh yes.. my Asahiflex IIB also STILL WORKS!  When I purchased it from a garage sale, I thought it would be just a paper weight to look at.  It operates well enough that I used it to shoot my final project for a few photo classes in college... just so I can say I did.  

My Asahiflex IIB and Black paint Spotmatic
http://www.silveredemulsions.com/Equipment/Collectibles/images/107714898.jpg
http://www.silveredemulsions.com/Equipment/Pentax/images/Equip_47_RT16.jpg


----------



## DATAstrm

I get the feeling that a large subset of the people bashing Program mode have never used it, and don't really know how it works.

I'm by no means a professional photographer, but I do think its important to know what all the modes on the camera can do!

On a Canon, Program mode can do everything (literally everything) that manual mode can.  

In manual mode, you would meter, then the camera gives you a suggested aperature/speed based on the metering.  Then you set those values.  If you want a higher aperature, you dial that in, and at the same time reduce your shutter speed to maintain the same exposure right?  In program mode, instead of having to dial in both the aperature and shutter, dialing up the aperature automatically dials down the shutter.  So in essence, you can do the same thing, except faster!

Now, with manual you can over/underexpose.  Lets say you have f4/60 and you want to overexpose by one stop (or 1/3 or whatever).  You would open up the aperature, or increase the shutter time.  Guess what?  In program mode, you can do that too with the exposure compensation, which automatically will overexpose by 1/3 of a stop!  You can still control whether it changes the aperature or shutters speed with 1 dial.

Manual does have some advantages.  When you want to have consistent exposure for stiching panoramas, or you are in a studio with constant light settings, manual mode can save you time.  Additionally, if you want to over/underexpose by more tan +/- 2 stops, you have to use manual because the EV compensation on your camera may not go that far.

Anyway, IMO neither mode is superior as far as the photos you are going to get.  They both have the same capabilities.  The only difference here is time.  With P, you save time on _varying_ lighting conditions.  With Manual, you save time on _unchanging_ lighting conditions.  That's pretty much the main difference.  

Just make sure you use/are familiar with something before bashing it =D  I know Battou has already changed his statement to reflect this, and I respect that!

DATAstrm


----------



## tron

um if your picture looks good, who gives a **** what mode you used?  okay mr. dbag on here might use full manual and think hes hot **** but it doesnt matter if his pics still look like dookie.

on the other hand, someone could use program and their pics could look fantastic.  

call it an idiot setting if you will, some people.  but remember who the real idiot is when some are done shooting while your old mind is feebly trying to contemplate what shutter speed is matching up with what fstop. 

its personal preference.  i happen to shoot in full manual 90% of the time but i dont go around bashing the hell out of people.


----------



## roadkill

that first part was supposed to be a quote


----------



## SimplyMo

who cares what _mode _another photographer is using _anyway_?!:scratch:

if it's something you're into--this program mode-- then why does it matter whether another photographer puts it down--and calls it "idiot mode"-..it's an opinion based assumption.. all that matters is what mode _you_ are using and whether it is working well for _you_ or not...



i almost always use manual mode, just because im comfortable with it.. i know exactly what's happening.. it's in my control


----------



## andrew99

Just use the right tool for the job.  Sometimes that's manual mode, sometimes it's something else.


----------



## Alex_B

SimplyMo said:


> who cares what _mode _another photographer is using _anyway_?!:scratch:



good question!



> if it's something you're into--this program mode-- then why does it matter whether another photographer puts it down--and calls it "idiot mode"-..it's an opinion based assumption.. all that matters is what mode _you_ are using and whether it is working well for _you_ or not...


 
Well, this probably causes so much uproar, since this is all about religion here, and not about photography.

:lmao:


----------



## ksmattfish

Bevel Heaven said:


> I always though "P" was for "Professional" anyways



That's what Joe Buissink says.   

Cameras don't have idiot modes.  Idiot mode occurs in the brain, and it's just as easy to be in idiot mode when the camera is set to M as it is any other setting.  As long as the photographer understands how the camera is operating, and they are getting the results they desire, then their choice of exposure mode is the right choice.  There is little difference between zeroing out the meter with fingers and letting the camera zero it out.  What is the significant difference between setting the camera to 1/125 @ f/4 with my fingers in M, or meter locking the camera at 1/125 @ f/4 by pointing it at the right tone in a scene in any auto or semi-auto mode?  All of my DSLRs clearly display the settings the camera is using in whatever mode.  The difference between a photographer who knows what they are doing and one running in idiot mode is whether or not they understand the information the meter is providing them, and what the effects of the settings will be on the photograph.

EDIT:  The information on how cameras adjust the settings in auto and semi-auto modes is usually available in the camera manual or at the camera manufacturer's website.  Auto and semi-auto modes do not operate randomly.


----------



## manaheim

Oh god, who livened this one up again?


----------



## tron

SimplyMo said:


> who cares what _mode _another photographer is using _anyway_?!:scratch:
> 
> if it's something you're into--this program mode-- then why does it matter whether another photographer puts it down--and calls it "idiot mode"-..it's an opinion based assumption.. all that matters is what mode _you_ are using and whether it is working well for _you_ or not...
> 
> 
> 
> i almost always use manual mode, just because im comfortable with it.. i know exactly what's happening.. it's in my control


 

see post #103 :thumbdown:


----------



## Village Idiot

ksmattfish said:


> That's what Joe Buissink says.
> 
> Cameras don't have idiot modes. Idiot mode occurs in the brain, and it's just as easy to be in idiot mode when the camera is set to M as it is any other setting. As long as the photographer understands how the camera is operating, and they are getting the results they desire, then their choice of exposure mode is the right choice. There is little difference between zeroing out the meter with fingers and letting the camera zero it out. What is the significant difference between setting the camera to 1/125 @ f/4 with my fingers in M, or meter locking the camera at 1/125 @ f/4 by pointing it at the right tone in a scene in any auto or semi-auto mode? All of my DSLRs clearly display the settings the camera is using in whatever mode. The difference between a photographer who knows what they are doing and one running in idiot mode is whether or not they understand the information the meter is providing them, and what the effects of the settings will be on the photograph.
> 
> EDIT: The information on how cameras adjust the settings in auto and semi-auto modes is usually available in the camera manual or at the camera manufacturer's website. Auto and semi-auto modes do not operate randomly.


 
Program mode is definitely idiot mode...and not always on the photographer's part. I mean, when you're shooting a photo in manual that has lots of contrast, you get to control how white the whites are and how black the blacks are. P mode = *Click* I got a picture! Yay!.

More control = the photos you want to take, not the photos the camera wants to take.

But Senor Hound, the originator of this wonderful thread probably still doesn't even have his DSLR yet, the one he's been lusting after for months now. It's a great topic to start in the "advanced" forum to get people to argue. 

After all, aren't the majority of people pointing and shooting with $600+ DLSR's photography noobs?


----------



## Battou

Village Idiot said:


> After all, aren't the majority of people pointing and shooting with $600+ DLSR's photography noobs?



I dunno you tell me :lmao:
_________^^^another awsomly Epic thread that is long dead :thumbup:


----------



## snowalker

I find "P" very good in any situation. But everybody has some personal preferences...


----------



## Hawaii Five-O

The auto mode is fine sometimes, but rest the time you are  doing an injustice to your camera by not using one of the other modes.  Understanding photography and using a camera is an art form in itself. Ansel Adams would roll around in his grave if  he could if he  knew  people used the auto mode.

My pansonic DMC-FZ8 has a :heart:  icon auto setting called the simple mode, we don't want to be simple and lazy do we?:er:


----------



## mike11165

"idiot mode"...I am just getting into this hobby and thats what it is for me ...is a hobby.... there seem to be lots of snobs in photography, just an initial impression from an amateur just getting more involved. its not a blanket statement... just an observation. these forums seem to have more than a fair share, however when I am out with my camera and socialize with photographers more advanced than I, they seem to be patient teachers of their craft and interested in helping. To you snobs, did you wake up knowing eveything you know or did you search through trial and error and maybe have help from both the camera and teacher?


----------



## manaheim

mike11165 said:


> "idiot mode"...I am just getting into this hobby and thats what it is for me ...is a hobby.... there seem to be lots of snobs in photography, just an initial impression from an amateur just getting more involved. its not a blanket statement... just an observation. these forums seem to have more than a fair share, however when I am out with my camera and socialize with photographers more advanced than I, they seem to be patient teachers of their craft and interested in helping. To you snobs, did you wake up knowing eveything you know or did you search through trial and error and maybe have help from both the camera and teacher?


 
  Welcome to the glass house... here's your bag o' rocks.


----------



## mike11165

im an avid fisherman... thats how a came to love photography, wanting to capture some of the beautiful things I see, Im still not good enough, my pics dont capture enough of what my eye see, but im trying.....fisherman can be brutal to each other, but I think photographers may be worse..


----------



## tron

mike11165 said:


> "idiot mode"...I am just getting into this hobby and thats what it is for me ...is a hobby.... *there seem to be lots of snobs in photography*, just an initial impression from an amateur just getting more involved. its not a blanket statement... just an observation. these forums seem to have more than a fair share, however when I am out with my camera and socialize with photographers more advanced than I, they seem to be patient teachers of their craft and interested in helping. To you snobs, did you wake up knowing eveything you know or did you search through trial and error and maybe have help from both the camera and teacher?


 
your initial impression is right.  beware of the heavy amounts of douchebaggery that will come from some people in the 'community'


----------



## table1349

mike11165 said:


> im an avid fisherman... thats how a came to love photography, wanting to capture some of the beautiful things I see, Im still not good enough, my pics dont capture enough of what my eye see, but im trying.....fisherman can be brutal to each other, but I think photographers may be worse..




Think of it this way.  As an avid fisherman are you using a cane pole with a line, bobber, sinker and hook?  If not why not?  Line tied to pole, bobber on the line, sinker below the bobber and hook at the end of the line (with bait).  Put it in the water, you are fishing.  Program mode.  

Of course if the line is 10 feet long and the brush pile/cover is 20 feet out into the lake you have a problem.  If the walleye are running deep you have a problem.  Hard to troll from the bank.  Hard to cast towards the bank from the bank,  Hard to work a lure from a static line on the end of a pole.  Thus the reel, artificial lures, bass boats, trolling motors, fish finders etc.   Now were talking AV, TV and Manual mode.  

Are they both fishing.  Of course.  Which one has more controllable results?


----------



## manaheim

^^^ nice.


----------



## Mystwalker

Village Idiot said:


> More control = the photos you want to take, not the photos the camera wants to take.


 
BUT the camera make better decisions then me 


If you want total control and fast enough, use Manual.

I've never used Program, but from the explanations here am going to give it a shot.  Have to find my manual first though - no idea how "P" mode works.


----------



## 480sparky




----------



## ann

good heavens another 3 year old thread comes round again


----------



## Patrice

Sparky,

Any reason you revived this thread?


----------



## 480sparky

Patrice said:


> Sparky,
> 
> Any reason you revived this thread?



I didn't..... another post must have been removed.


----------



## 480sparky

gryphonslair99 said:


> Nice try, not cigar.  removing a thread would have nothing to do with you revisiting a very old thread.



It does when someone makes a post and I comment on THAT MEMBER reviving an old thread.

And it's *NO* cigar.


----------



## ann

perhaps it is a boring morning


----------



## djacobox372

Bevel Heaven said:


> Hey Battou, if you are going to call people idiots, you might want to at least spell your words correctly while doing so....  There are at least a half dozen mis spelled words there friend. I always though "P" was for "Professional" anyways


 At least he didn't misspell "misspelled."Lol!


----------



## Josh66

Does anybody you guys are replying to even care?  The OP last posted here in '08...  Most of the other posters in this thread have been MIA for quite a while too...

Not sure what happened to him (the OP)...  He used to always say that he hurt himself (cutting, or whatever) as punishment for doing 'bad things'...


----------



## Garbz

He committed suicide due to the spellings amiss in this thread.


----------



## Mike_E

Another blast from the past.

I miss a few names from this thread.






Others...nooootsomuch


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

In all honesty, when i bought my 80D which was an upgrade from my XTi, i looked at it and was somewhat disappointed. I guess in certain situations like handing someone your camera to compose a shot with you in it somehow Auto or Program mode would be a good choice, but in all honesty i wish they would just get rid of the dial and only incorporate P mode. I may be prejudice but it drives me crazy when people buy expensive DSLR and keep them in Auto mode or P Mode (which i view as one in the same) and expect their pictures to come out "professional" just because they look the part. They're similar to the people who load their garage up with snap on tools but don't know how to properly diagnose a mechanical failure in a vehicle. Looking the part... I really only use P mode in the same situation i described using A mode, except when i don't want the flash to go off. Set ISO, hand camera.


----------



## waday

Per @480sparky:


----------



## astroNikon

SuzukiGS750EZ said:


> In all honesty, when i bought my 80D which was an upgrade from my XTi, i looked at it and was somewhat disappointed. I guess in certain situations like handing someone your camera to compose a shot with you in it somehow Auto or Program mode would be a good choice, but in all honesty i wish they would just get rid of the dial and only incorporate P mode. I may be prejudice but it drives me crazy when people buy expensive DSLR and keep them in Auto mode or P Mode (which i view as one in the same) and expect their pictures to come out "professional" just because they look the part. They're similar to the people who load their garage up with snap on tools but don't know how to properly diagnose a mechanical failure in a vehicle. Looking the part... I really only use P mode in the same situation i described using A mode, except when i don't want the flash to go off. Set ISO, hand camera.


I was at bestbuy several times the past weeks to check out the Nikon D500.  It has a professional body and setup, along with the D810.  

The lady I was talking to was telling me how every so often people would come in and they are upgrading from the D3x00 to a D810 and are angry that the D810 (nor the d500) doesn't have an AUTO mode.  All they have are PASM and no Scene or Effects features either.  By that time up the ladder you should know what you are doing, otherwise the camera is just about as good as the lower end cameras except faster and bigger and more expensive.

I'm in Manual essentially 100% of the time because I usually want a specific Aperture and a specific Shutter.


----------



## otherprof

Battou said:


> Because I like taking pictures.
> 
> 
> I don't like pushing a button and having a little black box do it all.
> 
> 
> On a slightly less personal note.....
> 
> Program mode is an idiot setting. In experienced hands it's almost useless, but can be pushed to it's limits, However such a derogatory or otherwise term develops biased on it's application and not it's potential. So as long as dSLRs are being sold to novices who never try to learn how to use the camera and leave it in program mode, the sentiment will always remain that it is an idiot setting because the number of applications sways heavy to the inexperienced side in comparison to the number of those who know how use it to it's potential.


Almost as bad as auto focus!


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

otherprof said:


> Battou said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because I like taking pictures.
> 
> 
> I don't like pushing a button and having a little black box do it all.
> 
> 
> On a slightly less personal note.....
> 
> Program mode is an idiot setting. In experienced hands it's almost useless, but can be pushed to it's limits, However such a derogatory or otherwise term develops biased on it's application and not it's potential. So as long as dSLRs are being sold to novices who never try to learn how to use the camera and leave it in program mode, the sentiment will always remain that it is an idiot setting because the number of applications sways heavy to the inexperienced side in comparison to the number of those who know how use it to it's potential.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as bad as auto focus!
Click to expand...

I don't mind auto focus if I'm shooting quickly. One thing I love about the 80d is being able to digitally zoom in and gone focus manually on still subjects.


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

astroNikon said:


> SuzukiGS750EZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> In all honesty, when i bought my 80D which was an upgrade from my XTi, i looked at it and was somewhat disappointed. I guess in certain situations like handing someone your camera to compose a shot with you in it somehow Auto or Program mode would be a good choice, but in all honesty i wish they would just get rid of the dial and only incorporate P mode. I may be prejudice but it drives me crazy when people buy expensive DSLR and keep them in Auto mode or P Mode (which i view as one in the same) and expect their pictures to come out "professional" just because they look the part. They're similar to the people who load their garage up with snap on tools but don't know how to properly diagnose a mechanical failure in a vehicle. Looking the part... I really only use P mode in the same situation i described using A mode, except when i don't want the flash to go off. Set ISO, hand camera.
> 
> 
> 
> I was at bestbuy several times the past weeks to check out the Nikon D500.  It has a professional body and setup, along with the D810.
> 
> The lady I was talking to was telling me how every so often people would come in and they are upgrading from the D3x00 to a D810 and are angry that the D810 (nor the d500) doesn't have an AUTO mode.  All they have are PASM and no Scene or Effects features either.  By that time up the ladder you should know what you are doing, otherwise the camera is just about as good as the lower end cameras except faster and bigger and more expensive.
> 
> I'm in Manual essentially 100% of the time because I usually want a specific Aperture and a specific Shutter.
Click to expand...

Second nature to me to compose, meter and change. Just like driving stick shift.


----------



## otherprof

SuzukiGS750EZ said:


> otherprof said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Battou said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because I like taking pictures.
> 
> 
> I don't like pushing a button and having a little black box do it all.
> 
> 
> On a slightly less personal note.....
> 
> Program mode is an idiot setting. In experienced hands it's almost useless, but can be pushed to it's limits, However such a derogatory or otherwise term develops biased on it's application and not it's potential. So as long as dSLRs are being sold to novices who never try to learn how to use the camera and leave it in program mode, the sentiment will always remain that it is an idiot setting because the number of applications sways heavy to the inexperienced side in comparison to the number of those who know how use it to it's potential.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as bad as auto focus!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't mind auto focus if I'm shooting quickly. One thing I love about the 80d is being able to digitally zoom in and gone focus manually on still subjects.
Click to expand...

I was being a smartass, but trying to make a point.  Sometimes auto is good, and sometimes I trust my camera more than I trust myself, particularly when time is of the essence.


----------



## Dave442

Wow, you would think that over the past almost 10 years of this post that camera makers would have eliminated the P mode if it was so bad.  P is not any more automatic than the A or S modes. 

Had an old Agfa rangefinder that had a sort of P mode; you took your handheld meter reading, set the shutter speed and aperture to what the meter gave and adjusting for any EV you want, the shutter dial and aperture dials were interlocked so then you turned them together to reach the combination you wanted. Just like today you would turn the one wheel to move the combination of shutter speed and aperture the DSLR chose to the combination you want and dial the other wheel to the EV desired.


----------



## snowbear




----------



## Ysarex

Dave442 said:


> Wow, you would think that over the past almost 10 years of this post that camera makers would have eliminated the P mode if it was so bad.  P is not any more automatic than the A or S modes.



Using a camera in P, A, or S semi-auto modes is not a disadvantage, quite the contrary. People who think the semi-auto modes are inferior to using the camera in M typically don't understand how their cameras work.

Joe



Dave442 said:


> Had an old Agfa rangefinder that had a sort of P mode; you took your handheld meter reading, set the shutter speed and aperture to what the meter gave and adjusting for any EV you want, the shutter dial and aperture dials were interlocked so then you turned them together to reach the combination you wanted. Just like today you would turn the one wheel to move the combination of shutter speed and aperture the DSLR chose to the combination you want and dial the other wheel to the EV desired.


----------



## Ysarex

SuzukiGS750EZ said:


> In all honesty, when i bought my 80D which was an upgrade from my XTi, i looked at it and was somewhat disappointed. I guess in certain situations like handing someone your camera to compose a shot with you in it somehow Auto or Program mode would be a good choice, but in all honesty i wish they would just get rid of the dial and only incorporate P mode. I may be prejudice but it drives me crazy when people buy expensive DSLR and keep them in Auto mode or P Mode (which i view as one in the same) and expect their pictures to come out "professional" just because they look the part.



I have an expensive camera (well, just bought a new body for $1700.00 if that counts) and I leave it in P mode and use it in P mode. And I'm in no way disadvantaged doing so compared with what you do. I suspect it's not prejudice but rather just misunderstanding how your camera works.

Joe



SuzukiGS750EZ said:


> They're similar to the people who load their garage up with snap on tools but don't know how to properly diagnose a mechanical failure in a vehicle. Looking the part... I really only use P mode in the same situation i described using A mode, except when i don't want the flash to go off. Set ISO, hand camera.


----------



## Derrel

P-mode today is virtually always "*shiftable programmed automatic*" mode, as it was called when first invented.

P mode can usually deliver fantastic results in modern Nikon cameras, whoich have 3-D, Color-Aware, multi-segment lght metering, as well as D-istance aware (AF-D, AF-S, AF-S G, and AF-S E series lenses are ALL *D-aware*) flash metering and exposure regulation/balancing, as well as focal-length-sensing. P-mode in Nikons works in ambient light conditions, AND with flash enabled.

P-mode can be SUPER-fast when you wish to be able to go from a very wide-aperture, shallow DOF shot, then immediately change to a mid- depth of field shot, or perhaps to a deep depth of field shot, in literally, 1 to 3 seconds, with the same level of exposure. Shutter and f/stop, both linked to one fast-to-operate control wheel. BAM! BAM! BAM! Three exposures, just about as fast as the wheel can be clicked.

With an f/1.4 lens, you can fire off shots at f/1.4, f/1.8, f/2, f/2.8, f/5.6, and f/11, meaning at SIX, different exposures, as fast as you can click the thumb-wheel, and in lock-step move the aperture and the shutter speed. Consider that each full EV value has three clicks of the wheel....if you have a DUAL-wheel camera, you would need to adjust the f/stop on one wheel, and the shutter on the back wheel...do you want to adjust EIGHTEEN clicks on the front wheel and also a matching EIGHTEEN clicks on the rear control wheel, as in the above scenario? I did not think so!

For the lower-end cameras, the ones that have the so-called "one-button layout", P mode is more valuable than it is on the more-expensive cameras. P-mode inter-connects f/stop and shutter speed directly,and shifts of the program can easily be made via the *main command wheel*. Users of Nikon D3xxx and D5xxx series actually BENEFIT from having a fast, easy P-mode option.

If you have the camera in an appropriate light metering mode (12mm circle center-weighted for exampler, or in Matrix mode, for example), with the right exposure comp for ooddball backdrops, you can easily easily NAIL perfect exposures, from the lens wide-open and the shutter at 1/4000 second, right down to the mid-f/stops, or to the small f/stops, in seconds. This is why "*shiftable programmed automatic*" was considered such a huge,huge deal when it was invented.


----------



## dxqcanada

P is for ...
M is for ...
Whatever ...
I just use what gets me the best image in the particular shooting situation I happen to be in ... and as Darrel says ... P coupled with shift can do wonders with the current exposure logic.


----------



## fmw

Program mode is nothing more than A and S priority combined into one tool.  The meter provides the same exposure value regardless of the exposure mode.  Since we control motion blur with shutter speed and depth of field with aperture, the program mode handles both.  You can step through the various combinations of S and A to choose the one that fits what you want to accomplish.   The knowledge required to use it properly is exactly the same as using A or S mode.  And if you change your mind you can simply go to a different option without having to do anything else.  P and M are all I ever use on a DSLR.


----------



## Bebulamar

Senor Hound said:


> A lot of people on here put down program mode, and I don't get why.  Its not an idiot setting, its just as capable as aperture or shutter.  With the program shift, you can go to whatever aperture or shutter speed you want (without possibly over or under developing the photo), and its like having both shutter mode and aperture mode on at the same time.  I think its a bad idea if you use its suggestion without taking into consideration your subject (and environment), but used in its correct way, I think its far from an idiot setting.
> 
> But I'm not a very technical photographer.  I understand what the numbers mean, how they work, and from there, I just make the photo how I want it.  I don't really contemplate f-stop settings while taking a photo, I just tell myself how shallow or deep I want the DOF, and tune to an approximate setting (I find a few tiny steps of f-stop USUALLY does not compromise the integrity of what I'm trying to convey).
> 
> So, can someone who is anti-program mode tell me why they are that way?  Am I missing out on something, or what?



I don't use it because yes I can make the camera to assume any settings I want with Program mode using program shift, AE lock, exposure compensation controls but that's a lot more work than simply put the camera in manual.


----------



## Drive-By-Shooter

the same reason many of us don't like auto transmissions; we can do better!
20 Reasons We Should All Drive Manual Cars - FQF


----------



## john.margetts

Drive-By-Shooter said:


> the same reason many of us don't like auto transmissions; we can do better!
> 20 Reasons We Should All Drive Manual Cars - FQF


I got told off for making that comparison.  Doing better with manual transmission, would you still want manual advance/retard? Or crank start? Having to double declutch to change gears? Sticking you arm out of the window before turning?

Using P or aperture priority or shutter priority is like using manual gears with auto advance/retard and synchromesh gears and flashing indicators. You control the bits that matter but the car controls the bits it can do better.


----------



## Frank F.

Senor Hound said:


> So, can someone who is anti-program mode tell me why they are that way?  Am I missing out on something, or what?




Modern cameras, if there is enough light and not too much, allow for M plus Auto-ISO.

I like to control DOF and motion blur fully, so I choose that mode most of the time. 

I switch to "A" if there is enough light to freezzee the moment anyway and Auto-ISO minimizes out at 100 ISO

Downside is that I sometimes set time too fast in low light and arrive at insane ISO settings.

In high contrast situations when the Auto anything can not deliver what I like to see (blow or sink the parts I do not like), I switch off Auto-ISO and set ISO to help my idea of the picture I like to see.

"P" is the fast mode in good light, when it is important to have the picture and artistic considerations do not play any role.


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

I enjoy auto ISO in M but don't rely on it consistently. It's still habit to set ISO so when I see "A" I leave it be unless I have a specific task or condition that I want a certain ISO to stay at. I also like being able to set the parameters of its upper limits for auto.


----------



## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> "P" is the fast mode in good light, when it is important to have the picture and artistic considerations do not play any role.



"P" is the fast mode in any light to achieve full control of the camera, maximum precision, and precisely the result you want when artistic considerations are all that matter. It depends somewhat on the design of the specific camera but in M you will typically lose precision and otherwise gain no advantage over using P.

How would, given artistic considerations, you arrive at a result using M that you couldn't also achieve using P?

Joe


----------



## Frank F.

Program shift adjusts time & aperure (and possibly ISO too). If I want to blur motion I set another time that if I want to freeze time just about or if I want to freeze time altogether.

I want to choose Aperture independently if situation permits.


----------



## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> Program shift adjusts time & aperure (and possibly ISO too). If I want to blur motion I set another time that if I want to freeze time just about or if I want to freeze time altogether.
> 
> I want to choose Aperture independently if situation permits.



In P mode if you want to blur motion just set the shutter speed you want -- no less difficult than setting the shutter in M mode. You're ability to independently select aperture once the shutter speed is set is limited by exposure and *always comes down to: you have no choice*.

Exposure  = time + aperture.  To maintain a constant exposure, change time and you must change aperture. No independent option to set aperture exists that doesn't alter exposure.

Joe


----------



## Frank F.

Not in Auto ISO if one stays within its limits


----------



## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> Not in Auto ISO if one stays within its limits



Exposure = time + aperture. You see ISO anywhere in that equation? So yes:* "To maintain a constant exposure, change time and you must change aperture. No independent option to set aperture exists that doesn't alter exposure."*

In auto ISO you're arguably no longer in full manual. In auto ISO you're handing the image over to the camera to decide like a rank amateur and you're giving up control over artistic considerations.

Joe


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

Ysarex said:


> Frank F. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not in Auto ISO if one stays within its limits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exposure = time + aperture. You see ISO anywhere in that equation? So yes:* "To maintain a constant exposure, change time and you must change aperture. No independent option to set aperture exists that doesn't alter exposure."*
> 
> In auto ISO you're arguably no longer in full manual. In auto ISO you're handing the image over to the camera to decide like a rank amateur and you're giving up control over artistic considerations.
> 
> Joe
Click to expand...

I think the choice for auto ISO would depend more on tripod vs handheld and the conditions in which you're shooting.


----------



## Ysarex

SuzukiGS750EZ said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank F. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not in Auto ISO if one stays within its limits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exposure = time + aperture. You see ISO anywhere in that equation? So yes:* "To maintain a constant exposure, change time and you must change aperture. No independent option to set aperture exists that doesn't alter exposure."*
> 
> In auto ISO you're arguably no longer in full manual. In auto ISO you're handing the image over to the camera to decide like a rank amateur and you're giving up control over artistic considerations.
> 
> Joe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the choice for auto ISO would depend more on tripod vs handheld and the conditions in which you're shooting.
Click to expand...


Auto ISO makes sense in rapidly changing lighting conditions and especially when photographing action in that lighting condition. It's really good for sports photographers.

Joe


----------



## ChadHillPhoto

...because it's not manual mode. Manual mode is the only mode, I like or use. I usually want to control every aspect of the creating the exposure that I can for each unique situation.


----------



## Derrel

Ysarex said:
			
		

> In auto ISO you're handing the image over to the camera to decide like a rank amateur and you're giving up control over artistic considerations.
> 
> Joe



This is sooooo far wrong, it is shocking. Just dumb comments. You ought to know better. I mean that seriously, too. With all due respect.

Maybe you are unaware how Pentax and Nikon have designed their ***new***  AUTO ISO systems. I'll give you that as an out.


----------



## Ysarex

Derrel said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In auto ISO you're handing the image over to the camera to decide like a rank amateur and you're giving up control over artistic considerations.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is sooooo far wrong, it is shocking. Just dumb comments. You ought to know better. I mean that seriously, too. With all due respect.
> 
> Maybe you are unaware how Pentax and Nikon have designed their ***new***  AUTO ISO systems. I'll give you that as an out.
Click to expand...


I know, it was sarcasm.

Joe

It's just the same old same old cr*p of "I shoot manual because I want total control. Manual is the only mode for real photographers." I was in the process of making an effort to resist that.


----------



## Overread

Is 14 pages and 8 years enough for a thread? Chances are program mode and indeed basic manual mode and auto ISO modes have changed a LOT since this thread began its life.


----------



## Derrel

Thank God. AUTO ISO is not what it used to be, 10 years ago. Pentax had the first system that was perfected. Nikon stole much of that. Canon has not yet caught up.


----------



## Overread

In my 7D the only thing I wish is that manual mode had the exposure bias selection [under/over expose from the meter reading] that Nikon has - which often seemed totally redundant to me in manual mode until auto ISO came on the scene (and thus the camera had something to bias even in manual mode if the photographer wished).


----------



## Ysarex

Derrel said:


> Thank God. AUTO ISO is not what it used to be, 10 years ago. Pentax had the first system that was perfected. Nikon stole much of that. Canon has not yet caught up.



This is copied directly from my notes to students in digital photo I: "On a digital camera ISO also functions electronically as a processing parameter after exposure and is used to determine the degree of sensor signal boost required to compensate for any necessary underexposure. *Right now find the control on your camera that sets ISO and set it to Auto." *I even put it in bold.

I'm just wasting my time tilting windmills of ignorance for all the "P mode is letting your camera decide, shoot in M for artistic control" cr*p.

Joe

P.S. Another one popped up in between our recent posts.


----------



## Ysarex

ChadHillPhoto said:


> ...because it's not manual mode. Manual mode is the only mode, I like or use. I usually want to control every aspect of the creating the exposure that I can for each unique situation.



Wow! It must take Trumpian sized hands to turn those manual dials. How is it that you have more control in M mode than in P mode -- can you provide an example?

Joe


----------



## Ysarex

Overread said:


> Is 14 pages and 8 years enough for a thread? Chances are program mode and indeed basic manual mode and auto ISO modes have changed a LOT since this thread began its life.



Yes, but fundamental ignorance about how a camera works is ramping up fast.

Joe


----------



## Derrel

Ysarex said:
			
		

> Yes, but fundamental ignorance about how a camera works is ramping up fast.
> 
> Joe



Why do (many) people dislike Programmed mode?

I'll take a stab at that, again: Because it is NOT what they grew up with. Because they have very little understanding of how to shoot a new, modern, digital SLR camera. Because they grew up shooting manual film advance cameras, or they grew up with expensive film, expensive processing, and expensive printing, and even-more costly enlarging of the best frames. Because they grew up _in the era when shooting ONE, single FRAME _was the norm.

Why do so,so many older people dislike hip-hop and rap music? 

What were ,"Long-haired hippies!" to my father in 1964? Answer: The Beatles.

People who grew up with a Speed graphic, or a Nikon F, or a Rolleiflex f/3.5 probably have very different opinions on the so-called best way to set up a camera, in many scenarios. As Ysarex notes, "Fundamental ignorance about how a camera works is ramping up fast." We are NO LONGER shooting on film with a five- to seven-EV total range. Many of us have cameras with new SONY-made sensors that have incredible dynamic range, and which have incredible shadow-recovery potential...even with the Gain Control Set to previously science fiction-like ISO levels of say, 6,400. Software is far better than it was in 2005.

I remember the hue and cry over, "Automatic" light metering. And that ,"Useless TTL flash metering!". And that gosh-danged new, "Autofocusing cr@p!"

People who diss program mode usually are old-school thinkers, and are stuck in 2007-era or earlier ways of thinking. Theory and reality have diverged to a huge degree over the last few generations of sensors; ideas about quality loss, and noise, how to expose, what ISO levels to set or to meter to,etc,etc. have changed MARKEDLY since 2008.


----------



## Desert Rose

I have never heard any serious  photographer that knows beans about photography say they don't like program mode, or any mode for that matter because it is just bad. Any mode can be bad in certain situations including manual mode. That doesn't mean people don't like it or shouldn't like it. I suppose it is possible for people starting out that haven't developed a full understanding of light, transmission, reflection and refraction and the ways to capture it might make statements like that, but certainly not any truly experienced photographer who has tried every possible way to use a camera in virtually all situations.


----------



## Ysarex

Derrel said:


> Ysarex said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but fundamental ignorance about how a camera works is ramping up fast.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do (many) people dislike Programmed mode?
> 
> I'll take a stab at that, again: Because it is NOT what they grew up with. Because they have very little understanding of how to shoot a new, modern, digital SLR camera. Because they grew up shooting manual film advance cameras, or they grew up with expensive film, expensive processing, and expensive printing, and even-more costly enlarging of the best frames. Because they grew up _in the era when shooting ONE, single FRAME _was the norm.
> 
> Why do so,so many older people dislike hip-hop and rap music?
> 
> What were ,"Long-haired hippies!" to my father in 1964? Answer: The Beatles.
> 
> People who grew up with a Speed graphic, or a Nikon F, or a Rolleiflex f/3.5 probably have very different opinions on the so-called best way to set up a camera, in many scenarios. As Ysarex notes, "Fundamental ignorance about how a camera works is ramping up fast." We are NO LONGER shooting on film with a five- to seven-EV total range. Many of us have cameras with new SONY-made sensors that have incredible dynamic range, and which have incredible shadow-recovery potential...even with the Gain Control Set to previously science fiction-like ISO levels of say, 6,400. Software is far better than it was in 2005.
> 
> I remember the hue and cry over, "Automatic" light metering. And that ,"Useless TTL flash metering!". And that gosh-danged new, "Autofocusing cr@p!"
> 
> People who diss program mode usually are old-school thinkers, and are stuck in 2007-era or earlier ways of thinking. Theory and reality have diverged to a huge degree over the last few generations of sensors; ideas about quality loss, and noise, how to expose, what ISO levels to set or to meter to,etc,etc. have changed MARKEDLY since 2008.
Click to expand...


All that but more. It's reached self-sustaining myth status. I know this is entirely anecdotal, but this semester right now Fall 2016 I had to kill it three times. Two of my young 20 year olds came to class believing they had to shoot in full manual to have "creative control" of the camera and I know where they got that -- other faculty. AND I'M THE OLD RETIRED GUY!

And then I have this middle-age woman who has teenage kids in the class. The family got her a new 5300 and she's real interested in learning to use it. Teenage son has helped and he told her to use it in manual!! Where's he getting that cr*p from?!! She comes to class with the camera and I see the dial set to M and ask her why -- junior showed her. I'm the one who grew up with cameras that didn't have light meters in them. What's a 15 year old doing telling Mom to put the camera on M?!! ARRRGHHHH!

Joe


----------



## AlanKlein

Most people should leave exposure in Program or Auto and first learn how to take pictures with content that is interesting.  Once you've learned that, then you can play around with manual modes to effect DOF and speed.  Remember, mainly we're talking about getting the right light exposure so the picture isn't blown out or dark.  But none of that will make compelling photos.  If you're going to make boring pictures, you might as well leave it in Program.


----------



## Ysarex

AlanKlein said:


> Most people should leave exposure in Program or Auto and first learn how to take pictures with content that is interesting.  Once you've learned that, then you can play around with manual modes to effect DOF and speed.



Or play around effecting DOF and speed and just keep the camera in Program mode to do it. Manual mode offers no additional options to effect DOF or shutter speed that aren't already there in Program mode.

Joe



AlanKlein said:


> Remember, mainly we're talking about getting the right light exposure so the picture isn't blown out or dark.  But none of that will make compelling photos.  If you're going to make boring pictures, you might as well leave it in Program.


----------



## SCraig

I don't understand why people have to get hung up about exposure modes.  "You NEED to use THIS mode all the time"  or "You MUST use THAT mode all the time" or "I ONLY use MANUAL mode" or whatever ad nauseam.

My camera bodies have a mode dial.  It turns so that I can easily change the mode to shoot the situation I'm shooting in.  In my personal opinion telling people that they need to use program mode all the time is no different from telling someone they need to use manual mode all the time.  Modes are selectable so that they can be tailored to the shooting situation.  Use whatever works or whatever one is most comfortable with.  Feel free to try other modes, and if you don't like the way they behave then just don't use them again.


----------



## EIngerson

This is a long thread for a useless subject. I don't care what mode YOU shoot in.


----------



## SCraig

EIngerson said:


> This is a long thread for a useless subject. I don't care what mode YOU shoot in.


Agreed.  That was pretty much my point.


----------



## Desert Rose

I don't even care what mode I shoot in, as long as the results are what I intend.


EIngerson said:


> This is a long thread for a useless subject. I don't care what mode YOU shoot in.


----------



## Frank F.

The point that is missing here is: I am often not satisfied with the camera's decision what exposure should be like. Even Auto-ISO means I need to steer the camera to the exposure I want. The fastest way in steady light situations is usually all manual, except for situations in which the scene DR fits into the camera DR completely, then any Auto mode will do, also Program mode. 

As I shoot a lot @1.4 and @1.8 I hate it when the camera chooses 6.3. I do not use stabilized lenses, so currently I like to have a 1/200st or faster of a second shooting the 85mm just because I fear my hand is not steady enough. In action I like to set time to just-about-freeze-the motion , which is different for every flavour of sports or kind of bird. Sometimes it is 1/350st sometimes I need 1/2000st.

You are right that in many siutuations I only want to control time or aperture and do not need to control both. Then Program shift can work.

Since the F4 I steer the camera's exposure by measuring spot into a part of the picture that represents the medium exposure of what I want. Then I save the setting, reframe and shoot. These were taken with a F100 & 1.8/85D in 2001: content is our business *** Software-Pioniere 2001 *** HOME -             HochschulMediennetz Deutschland

All spot metering into the eye


----------



## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> The point that is missing here is: I am often not satisfied with the camera's decision what exposure should be like. Even Auto-ISO means I need to steer the camera to the exposure I want. The fastest way in steady light situations is usually all manual,



The point that's missing here is that it may be fastest for you to use all manual (great), but given a different camera design and/or someone accustomed to using a camera in P mode, it may be as fast or faster to get the exact same result you get in manual using P mode instead. I'm nearly 100% unsatisfied with the camera's calculated exposure parameters and I quickly get what I want leaving my camera in P mode.* I can keep the camera in P mode and come up with the exact same settings  you arrive at using M* (within the reasonable range of exposure; got ten stops on my camera).

Your original statement; "'P' is the fast mode in good light, when it is important to have the picture and artistic considerations do not play any role.", implies that P mode limits access for "artistic considerations." It's the same nonsense that's been repeated for years by people who don't understand how cameras work that in P mode you must give up control and let the camera decide for you. That's wrong.



Frank F. said:


> except for situations in which the scene DR fits into the camera DR completely, then any Auto mode will do, also Program mode.
> 
> As I shoot a lot @1.4 and @1.8 I hate it when the camera chooses 6.3.



Then in P mode rotate the shift wheel to the f/stop you want. With my camera I need to rotate the shift wheel just once and that setting stays put.



Frank F. said:


> I do not use stabilized lenses, so currently I like to have a 1/200st or faster of a second shooting the 85mm just because I fear my hand is not steady enough. In action I like to set time to just-about-freeze-the motion , which is different for every flavour of sports or kind of bird. Sometimes it is 1/350st sometimes I need 1/2000st.



Best possible argument to use the camera in shutter priority.



Frank F. said:


> You are right that in many siutuations I only want to control time or aperture and do not need to control both. Then Program shift can work.



You still seem to be missing the point that the constraint required to achieve exposure doesn't change with the mode selection. *For any given exposure selecting aperture immediately determines the shutter speed and vice versa.* You can't select aperture and shutter speed independent of each other without altering exposure.



Frank F. said:


> Since the F4 I steer the camera's exposure by measuring spot into a part of the picture that represents the medium exposure of what I want. Then I save the setting, reframe and shoot.



And I just press the AEL button, reframe and shoot -- quick button press might be faster than manually saving a shutter speed and f/stop.

It's OK to use the camera in manual. But using the camera in manual does not give you control for "artistic considerations" that is not available to someone using their camera in P, S, or A modes. Those semi-auto modes allow the user equivalent artistic control over the camera. Given design variations in the different cameras fine grained control may very likely swing in favor of the semi-auto modes. Fuji cameras are popular with the retro crowd, but when you switch a Fuji X camera into full manual you only have full stop shutter speeds. In the semi-auto modes you get 1/3 stop shutter speeds. How the knobs and dials are laid out can be the deciding factor.

The original point you missed was that using a camera in P mode is not inferior to using it in manual. That's what you implied and that's wrong.

Joe



Frank F. said:


> These were taken with a F100 & 1.8/85D in 2001: content is our business *** Software-Pioniere 2001 *** HOME -             HochschulMediennetz Deutschland
> 
> All spot metering into the eye


----------



## Frank F.

"You can't select aperture and shutter speed independent of each other without altering exposure."

That is obviously bullshit, sorry.

I have four parameters to steer exposure: Time, Aperture, ISO and flash dosage

When ISO was still a real constraint earlier in life shooting darkish indoor events (ugly downlights)  with two D70-bodies, I had them both set to ISO 1250 (fixed), f=4 (fixed), t=1/125 s (fixed)

The only thing I changed was the body (one with 50mm, one with 24mm) and the flash dosage. For one-head-shots I opened the aperture to two, to blur the BG more.

***

I really love the LOCK function for any parameter I want to lock and let the other paramters flow. But not every camera offers that. I used in on the D3 all the time.

***

The point I give to you is that "your milage may vary", so some people are faster with program mode, some love center weighted, some spot some this new fifth gen mode I do not unterstand yet, some love program shift and exposure compensation. I used to work that way earlier in life, I guess the F4 already had some program shift. Yet I came back to the other modes, always searching for the maximum amount of shots that are not for the bin.

For example: With the SB800 on the D600 I feel the fill flash and white balance works better in Auto modes than done manually by myself.

PS: ISO 20.000 today on the D500...






and a crop with Noise Reduction = OFF


----------



## Frank F.

PS: It is more or less the same with AF. I love AF in many situations, but sometimes it is a pain to steer AF to do what I want, so I choose MF.


----------



## Frank F.

With "saving exposure" I meant "using the AE-L button".


----------



## SuzukiGS750EZ

Ok everybody, stop bickering. I'm going to come forward and be honest... i shoot in full auto. I thought P stood for pretty until i found this thread... No wonder my selfies weren't improving.


----------



## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> "You can't select aperture and shutter speed independent of each other without altering exposure."
> 
> That is obviously bullshit, sorry.
> 
> I have four parameters to steer exposure: Time, Aperture, ISO and flash dosage



Exposure = time + aperture. Sorry to have confused you but I'm using the term "exposure" *as it is defined in photography.* As such ISO is not an exposure variable. When flash is used in an exposure it becomes the time variable and shutter speed is replaced by the flash duration except in the special case where a double exposure is created. Normally exposure is defined in the context where ambient light is assumed.

Granted colloquial usage is confused and you're usage seems aligned with that. Unfortunately that leads to a lot of misunderstanding especially about ISO, what it is and the role it plays.

The wiki definition is a good one:
"In photography, *exposure* is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance." Exposure (photography) - Wikipedia

*See ISO in there? *

If you need help understanding ISO in a digital camera let me know.



Frank F. said:


> The point I give to you is that "your milage may vary", so some people are faster with program mode, some love center weighted, some spot some this new fifth gen mode I do not unterstand yet, some love program shift and exposure compensation.



And that is not the point you made earlier and not the point I objected to now is it. In fact you're pretty much adopting my point to continue to argue. *Glad to see you're coming around.* Your original point: "'P' is the fast mode in good light, when it is important to have the picture and artistic considerations do not play any role." That's wrong.

Joe


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## Drive-By-Shooter

All, with the invention of such a wide range of ISO, automatically selected by often unknown camera parameters, the photographer's use of any mode becomes less important than the camera's internal logic.  My N90s had better exposure management than my D600, for example.  So, I use center weighted averaging more often now and that may be more important than my exposure mode.
Joe, please take a moment to chill.  Why not step away from this thread? ;-)
I have not read all of this thread, but I see that Frank has been offering some solid advice.  However, his wording is not resonating with you.  For example, you call him out on the definition of exposure, but I agree with him.  Look at this definition of exposure which seems to indicate that EV is what is important, not the particular settings: ".... Exposure is measured in lux seconds, and can be computed from exposure value (EV) and scene luminance in a specified region."


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## Ysarex

Drive-By-Shooter said:


> All, with the invention of such a wide range of ISO, automatically selected by often unknown camera parameters, the photographer's use of any mode becomes less important than the camera's internal logic.  My N90s had better exposure management than my D600, for example.  So, I use center weighted averaging more often now and that may be more important than my exposure mode.
> Joe, please take a moment to chill.  Why not step away from this thread? ;-)
> I have not read all of this thread, but I see that Frank has been offering some solid advice.  However, his wording is not resonating with you.  For example, you call him out on the definition of exposure, but I agree with him.  Look at this definition of exposure which seems to indicate that EV is what is important, not the particular settings: "In photography, *exposure* is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds, and can be computed from exposure value (EV) and scene luminance in a specified region."



I have to admit you have me rather confused. The definition you just quoted from wiki here is precisely the definition I just quoted one post earlier. You say you agree with Frank but then offer the same definition I did that does not agree with Frank -- interesting logic you've got going there.

You probably should read more of the thread more carefully. So you agree with this statement: "'P' is the fast mode in good light, when it is important to have the picture and artistic considerations do not play any role." I read that as saying the camera used in P mode is not up to task when artistic considerations play a role. That would be your position as well?

Joe


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## Gary A.

I shoot Manual. Occasionally I use A. But I shoot Manual in all situations in all light.  Artistic considerations always play a role in my photos, but that role will vary in priority depending on what I shoot.  Shooting sports, as an example, I always take framing into consideration, but getting the ball in the the photo will take a higher priority to framing. 

I shoot Manual because I find M easier and faster to attain the results I seek.  This is because of usage, of continued practice, of repetition, of proficiency.  It is a closed cycle of using one mode because I haven't taken the time to become proficient in other modes. I've never used P because I've never taken the time to learn/understand P. I am lazy.  Not knowing how one's camera works is a deficiency for the photographer.  I need to work on my deficiencies.


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## Ysarex

Gary A. said:


> I shoot Manual. Occasionally I use A. I shoot Manual because I find M easier and faster to attain the results I seek.  This is because of usage, of continued practice, of repetition, of proficiency.  It is a closed cycle of using one mode because I haven't taken the time to become proficient in other modes. I've never used P because I've never taken the time to learn/understand P. I am lazy.  Not knowing how one's camera works is a deficiency for the photographer.  I need to work on my deficiencies.



No you don't -- you're fine. Using a camera in the way you're most comfortable is fine if it gets you the result you want. The only reason I'm in this thread is to resist the attitude that keeps popping up that using the camera in semi-auto modes -- in this case P mode -- is somehow an abdication of camera control and only there as a crutch for the less capable who don't use their cameras in full manual like "real photographers." That's nonsense.

I'd recommend you consider trying to use your camera in manual along with auto-ISO but I know you're using Fuji cameras so maybe not such a good idea as Fuji disables EC when the camera is in manual.

Joe


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## Drive-By-Shooter

Joe, "exposure" has to do with the amount of light on the sensor, regardless of any particular combo of A/S/ISO.

I mostly shoot A preferred unless speed control is needed, then i switch to S or M.  I generally let the camera choose ISO as it does a good job keeping the shutter speed high enough for the lens attached or focal length selected on a zoom.
For beginners, I also recommend A with auto ISO, considering the desired DOF at their focal length and subject distance.  that's enough for beginners and most others.  my point is that with auto ISO, this mode is now easy for beginners.
I can appreciate using P and adjusting the combo with the dial.
for day-1 beginners, i would recommend the "scenes" modes to get them thinking immediately about the different types of shots they are conceiving.
Seems simple enough to me how to advise newbies, which was the initial post 8 years ago, where he said he was not technical.  However, this thread got very technical with squabbles that split hairs for unknown gain for experienced or newbie alike.
I'm done with this thread.  thanks.  see you all in another.


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## Frank F.

Thank you Gary.

It is like I say: *I do not zoom, because I am too stupid to zoom.* With zoom you always have to decide between walking and zooming. 

Walking means changing the perspective until perspective is right.

Zooming means changing the crop until crop is right.

Walking with a zoom means changing perspective and crop all the time at the same time. In my mind I can not do it.

I know that is not how people use zooms, the usually just walk to the point where the zoom can "reach" the desired crop. That is how they ruin their frame.

Take the same analogy now: I used "P" mode earlier and ended up with absurd correction values like +3.7 EV or -5.0 EV.
I felt I do not understand why the camera sometimes delivers as expected and some times not.
The description in the manual as I understand it and what the camera really does as I understand it deviate. Very much so.
I can now say, as Gary does: *"I am too stupid for P-mode"*

But I can also say: I feel I have more control and get more pleasing results with the way I operate the camera. 
M-everything -- like it was with my Zenit, OM-1 and FM-2 -- is a good way in many situations, but not always. For me.


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## Frank F.

And a group shot at f=1.4 is also not text-book, but I still like it:


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## Gary A.

LOL ... I don't use EC ... I prefer manually using shutter speed or aperture, to override/interpret what the camera's light meter suggests.  Typically, I shoot in Spot. I read off the most important part of the primary subject, identify that read/zone and adjust the settings accordingly.  I like to shoot in "bad light" because it tasks my skills and I find that severe directional lighting and/or low lighting adds drama to my images. What I lack  in Image Quality, I attempt to make up for with Image Impact (content).


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## Ysarex

Gary A. said:


> LOL ... I don't use EC ... I prefer manually using shutter speed or aperture, to override/interpret what the camera's light meter suggests.  Typically, I shoot in Spot. I read off the most important part of the primary subject, identify that read/zone and adjust the settings accordingly.  I like to shoot in "bad light" because it tasks my skills and I find that severe directional lighting and/or low lighting adds drama to my images. What I lack  in Image Quality, I attempt to make up for with Image Impact (content).



No auto ISO for you then, certainly not with your Fuji.

I understand being happy doing what you know works -- nothing wrong with that. I'd probably still be most comfortable with my old hassy and a roll of film, but I have to explain these modern cameras to students every semester and I have to understand how they work. They come to class all screwed up watching Youtube and it takes me a long time to straighten them out. There is an attitude out there that "real photographers shoot manual" along with the flip side that denigrates using P, A, or S as an abdication of creative control. *That attitude is all I'm objecting to. *It popped up here.

There are some basically new capabilities in modern cameras that we didn't have in the film era and they really can make a difference. I encourage my students to use auto-ISO when shooting action. I make them shoot soccer games and the ability to select a working ISO range is a huge advantage. Then I hear one of them say, "I thought I was supposed to do everything in manual." Another one: My old Fuji (X-E2) really was fully ISO invariant (the X-T2 not so much). I shot an indoor event recently with the X-E2 in which I took advantage of that. There are things we can do now that we couldn't do before.

Joe


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## Derrel

Speaking directly to Joes' comment about, "*new capabilities in modern cameras that we didn't have in the film era and they really can make a difference*" Here's one take (mine) on why the old-school way of "dissing programmed" makes little sense today, in 2016.

Modern Nikon cameras have 14 to 14.6 EV of scene DR that can be handled pretty well. With banks of 100,000-plus actual real photos, and metering systems that break the scene down into 2,016 parts on cheaper cameras, to tens of thousands of segments on higher end cameras, and with Date and Time and Location entered into the camera at Set-Up, the program can know things like, "Set to Daylight WB..hmmm..Seattle, Washington....November 27th...1:34 in the afternoon...hmmmm....10 light areas amongst 25 gray areas...hmmm.  Overcast with slight cloud cover breaks....lower 4/5 of frame 7.5 EV darker than top 1/5...okay. GOT the right exposure!"  Similarly, San Diego,California, July 4, 1:34 PM....meter analyzes a BRILLIANT orb, taking up 1/150th of the frame, upper left corner, upper 4/5 of frame show blue colors, bottom shows a steady, sandy-colored tone....OMG...'we're at the beach!"...in side-lighting, set Tone Curve to LOW to handle contrast, exposure NAILED!"

Midnight, San Diego, July 20th, 1:45 A.M.,15 tiny, tiny 3,458 degrees Kelvin, illuminated light spots against a mosly dark field....Oh! We're in a darkened parking lot, and the camera location is San Diego, CA, and we know the date, the SUN CAN NOT BE anywhere...*This is a night-time exposure*....

This is partly how Programmed exposure works nowadays: the camera has 100,000 to 200,000 ACTUAL photos, broken down into exposure levels, exposure comparisons,total brightness ranges, preponderance of brightness values, outlier values, and *3-D, color-aware, distance-aware, reflectance-aware metering "patterns"*. Back light, side-light, front light, night-time, low-light, early AM, late PM, full night-time....low-contrast lighting, high-contrast lighting, these things are all, now, today, integrated. Nikon INVENTED the Matrix metering system with scene analysis in the Nikon FA camera, back in the mid-1980's. Now, every camera maker has copied the idea of 100,000-plus scenes, reduced to Patterns, and then classified and analyzed with a computer microchip. THIS IS WHY Programmed shiftable Automatic metering works so well in modern, digital cameras...especially with 14-stop scene dynamic range capabilities.

Many old-school thinkers view exposure metering as if it were 1963; "Oh, I need to compensate for the reflectane value, bcause this is White, so I need to Open Up 2 Stops!" NOPE--the cameras are now *shooting color positive*, and the metering can read the color of an object, and can adjust the exposure needed to render it properly as a color POSITIVE image, and NOT as a B&W negative image! Slides and negatives are metered very differently. Cameras now are loaded with their own brand and type of "film".

We have a lot of people trying to pigeonhole camera metering and exposure into outdated ways of thinking and making decisions. Old-school reflected light metering for negative films is not the same as metering for color positive pictures. Programmed systems in 2016 cameras are vaaaaaaastly smarter than they were in a 1978 Canon AE-1 Program shooting Kodacolor 200 negative film. Keep in mind: we are now shooting, digitally, with 1) ONE film type, color positive and 2) With variable Tone Curve (Plus-Development, Normal Development, or Minus Development!) and 3) Variable color saturation and so on and so on. and 4) Color-sensing and reflectance-computing exposure meters.


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## astroNikon

. . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Ysarex

Frank F. said:


> Thank you Gary.
> 
> It is like I say: *I do not zoom, because I am too stupid to zoom.* With zoom you always have to decide between walking and zooming.
> 
> Walking means changing the perspective until perspective is right.
> 
> Zooming means changing the crop until crop is right.
> 
> Walking with a zoom means changing perspective and crop all the time at the same time. In my mind I can not do it.
> 
> I know that is not how people use zooms, the usually just walk to the point where the zoom can "reach" the desired crop. That is how they ruin their frame.
> 
> Take the same analogy now: I used "P" mode earlier and ended up with absurd correction values like +3.7 EV or -5.0 EV.
> I felt I do not understand why the camera sometimes delivers as expected and some times not.
> The description in the manual as I understand it and what the camera really does as I understand it deviate. Very much so.
> I can now say, as Gary does: *"I am too stupid for P-mode"*
> 
> But I can also say: I feel I have more control and get more pleasing results with the way I operate the camera.
> M-everything -- like it was with my Zenit, OM-1 and FM-2 -- is a good way in many situations, but not always. For me.



Nothing wrong with using the camera the way you do. You don't have to use it some other way. Just don't suggest that your way is better and what others are doing is inferior. That's all.

Like your perspective versus lens choice above. You can chose to be thoughtful in how you use a zoom and not fall into the trap you identified. Just because some people do get tripped up doesn't mean that's what has to happen. So you have a 28mm, 35mm and 50mm lens. You walk to the point where perspective is right. That's the way to do it. Get the perspective right and don't compromise it. Now to crop the shot you need a 43mm lens. You don't have one. Are you going to walk closer with the 35mm or back up with the 50mm and change perspective? Are you going to crop in post? How about walking to the same spot with a 24mm-80mm zoom and setting it to 43mm?

You're identifying a situation where people allow tools to influence their behavior -- no argument from me that happens. And no law chiselled in stone that says it has to happen. It's wrong to assign fault to the tool for it's misuse.

Joe


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## SuzukiGS750EZ

Just to reiterate. These are all opinions. Using or not using is everyone's choice. Nobody here is telling anybody what to do nor is it set in stone. If it was there would only exist one mode,  P. Everybody is correct in their view, but solid facts can't be argued. So there, is settled. P mode is useless.


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## Overread

Yep 8 years was long enough I think since we are going in circles and pedantic arguments have arisen.


Go forth; read your manuals and shoot.


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