# Need some sales advice, please help!



## tibrunner (Dec 23, 2012)

A couple months back I took a photo of a building at night, it turned out quite nice. I printed it 20x30, mounted it on black mat board, and gave it as a gift to the company (a very well known investment company). All with underlying hope of request for future business.

My hopes were answered yesterday, I was approached by the company asking if they could have the digital file to use it in their "Welcome" packets. They would like to discuss this in person next week. 


A couple things I need to include: 
- I work for them via 3rd party contract (security). 
- I took the picture while I was on the clock.
- There is no mention of this not being allowed, nor of either company retaining ownership of this type of material in either contract. (Invest.-security, or security-me)
- This is the first time I have been in the position to sell my work in a way that will be mass produced. This picture will be viewed almost as much as their company logo. 

Should I sell the authorization to use the file or should I sell the full copyright, as I have really no need for this image other than what I have already done?

Also, what should I ask for? 
- Internship with the company (I am a student after all), 
- trade for exclusive photography position for the company, 
or 
- just $X.xx?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you all!


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## StoneNYC (Dec 23, 2012)

Sell it all and ask questions later/apologize later.

No one will know you sold it if you don't tell anyone at work, it shouldn't be a problem.


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II  /  Canon: 1V, AE-1  /  Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JBrown (Dec 23, 2012)

There are many factors to take into consideration. Are they going to be printing thousands of these or hundreds? Pocketbook size of the company? How good the image actually is? Etc etc.

You have something they want and are in a position to provide it to them. The value is really something based on what each of you think its worth.


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## texkam (Dec 23, 2012)

> - I work for them via 3rd party contract (security).
> - I took the picture while I was on the clock.
> - There is no mention of this not being allowed, nor of either company retaining ownership of this type of material in either contract. (Invest.-security, or security-me)


Sticky situation. Asking is fine, but don't push too hard. You don't want to burn bridges. Explain that you would really like to be compensated for investing your talent and providing them something of value, however be prepared to learn that no good deed goes unpunished. In the end you may have to make the uncomfortable choice of giving it away, your payment being a lesson learned. Good luck.


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## Mully (Dec 23, 2012)

I would give them license rights.  You don't have to explain how you took it or any other info ......here is the image and it costs xxxxx for 5 years.


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## Steve5D (Dec 23, 2012)

Yeah, I don't see any reason to make them aware that you took it while you were on the clock. In fact, if that got back to your employer, you could stand a chance of being fired...


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## KmH (Dec 23, 2012)

You would be selling the usage rights (licensing) to a stock photograph.
Online you can visit American Society of Media Photographers and on the left click on *Business Resources *for a variety of tutorials that would apply to your situation.
ASMP recommends using Assignment and Stock photography pricing software like fotoQuote Pro 6 - fotoQuote ? Stock and Assignment Photography Price Guide

I believe you are the copyright owner of the photo, because doing photography was not a normal part of your job description even though you made the photo while you were on the security companies clock.
That is covered in the US Copyright Office's - Work for Hire - circular #9: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

By retaining copyright ownership you can generate income from the photo for many years.

You need to know:


If they want exclusive or non-exclusive use. Exclusive use costs more.
The geographic extent of their use. Worldwide use, costs more than, use in the Northern Hemisphere,  use in North America,  use in US, etc.
How many 'Welcome' packets do they have printed per year? 5,000? 50,000? 500,000? The more they print, the more it costs.
Where in the Welcome packet will your image appear and at what size. The front cover costs the most, then the rear cover, then the inside front cover, then inside
Once you know the particulars, you can write a use license that specifically defines their usage.

Exclusive use, in the continental US, to be printed on the cover of 50,000 'Welcome' packets for use in 2013 for $$$.
Exclusive use, in the continental US, to be printed on the cover of 50,000 'Welcome' packets for use in 2014 for $$$
Exclusive use, in the continental US, to be printed on the cover of 50,000 'Welcome' packets for use in 2015 for $$$
Exclusive use, in the continental US, to be printed on the cover of 50,000 'Welcome' packets for use in 2016 for $$$
Non- Exclusive use, in the continental US, to be printed on the cover of 50,000 'Welcome' packets for use in 2017 for $$$. (So you then have the opportunity to license the photo to other users)


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## texkam (Dec 23, 2012)

... Just be prepared for.... "What? You gotta be kidding! We're not paying that! We just figured since you work for us as a security guard we could work something out. After all you took this while you were at work ... um, wait a minute, you shot this while you were on the clock? And you didn't have permission from or arrange this with someone? Uh, ....hmmmm, perhaps we need to reevaluate our employment relationship."


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## orljustin (Dec 23, 2012)

You were working for them, they know it,and want it for free.  Good luck.


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## SCraig (Dec 23, 2012)

Bottom line is that they are going to make you an offer and you can take it or leave it.  They might wiggle a little but they are in the more advantageous position than you.


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## tibrunner (Dec 24, 2012)

This is the only copy I have on my phone, it's unedited and scaled from 109mb to 1.3mb 4x6"

At this point all I know is that they want the picture, I do not know how badly. But I do know they want to use it on their website and on their Welcome packets. 

Also, I am unaware of how many packets will be produced, nor of their design and desired placements of the pic.


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## keith foster (Dec 24, 2012)

That is a nice picture but I wouldn't call it a show stopper.  I would take what they offer and run with it. Especially because of the circumstances of it coming to about.  The exit data will tell them exactly when this was taken plus a lot of other information you may not want them to bring up. 
The picture could be pretty easily re shot by almost any advanced beginner photographer and easily by any advanced hobbyist so in the end your product is easy to reproduce and shot under circumstances that don't help you make a case for holding out.  IMHO


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## Steve5D (Dec 24, 2012)

Again, there's only one scenario in which you would have to tell them you were on the clock, and that's if the only way to be in the spot from where the photo was taken required passage through some security access. Otherwise, the "I came back on my night off" would work nicely. 

When you gave them the print, did you tell them that you worked for the security company? If not, there's not a single reason, aside from the one I mentioned above, to tell them...


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## KmH (Dec 24, 2012)

Lying is never advisable.


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## orljustin (Dec 24, 2012)

There's nothing special or unrepeatable about that.  Take what you can and run.


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## tibrunner (Dec 24, 2012)

Steve5D said:
			
		

> When you gave them the print, did you tell them that you worked for the security company? If not, there's not a single reason, aside from the one I mentioned above, to tell them...



I have worked there for more than a year, I am a very familiar face to most of the employees. And when I was approached to ask about them using the image was while I wAs in my little guard shack as the employee was leaving the site. 

I know the image isn't amazing or a show stopper or anything special like that, but they like it, so I'll see how it goes.


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## Tony S (Dec 25, 2012)

For what it is find a number that will make you happy.  It's not something they can't easily duplicate with a little effort, so don't go overboard.  For someone starting out that number could be as low as $25, for another who is well experienced and in business it could be $2500.  Like you said, you have no further use for it, find a number that will make you smile and then enjoy seeing it now and then at work.


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## Steve5D (Dec 25, 2012)

Well, it sounds like the fact that you're employed there isn't an issue, so that's good...


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## IByte (Dec 25, 2012)

Steve5D said:


> Well, it sounds like the fact that you're employed there isn't an issue, so that's good...



Oo how's it going Steve, have you been Oo hiding in the darkroom lol?


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## tibrunner (Feb 1, 2013)

Just thought I would give an update. 

Sorry for the late response, negotiations ended today. Sold 3 images @$180 per. 

All in all a good day, considering in the beginning it was looking like they would only be taking one, and as a "donation" at that.

They are allowed to reproduce them in any medium they want (digital and print) and any number of times they want. I retain copy write to originals.


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## texkam (Feb 1, 2013)

Made money and became even smarter for the next time. Good result. Thanks for the update.


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## gsgary (Feb 1, 2013)

tibrunner said:


> Just thought I would give an update.
> 
> Sorry for the late response, negotiations ended today. Sold 3 images @$180 per.
> 
> ...



For the next 3 week your pay packet will be $180 light


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## tibrunner (Feb 1, 2013)

gsgary said:
			
		

> For the next 3 week your pay packet will be $180 light



Haha yea...I would not put that past them. 

But I don't mind, these three pictures paid my rent for the month.


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