# When C&C is requested.



## KmH (May 5, 2009)

This came up in another thread and Craig mentioned there used to be a critique forum that ultimately tanked years ago.

I listen closely when I get a critique from a more accomplished artist. I learn more that way. I listen closely to less accomplished artist because they may show me a new way.

Let the discussion begin.


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## Garbz (May 6, 2009)

Sorry what was there to discuss? Is critique a good idea? Should we bring back the forum? 

What is the purpose of this thread?

And the critique forum was abolished, but critique itself wasn't. If you want critique post in the beginners section, or a relevant gallery pages and ASK for it.


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## LaFoto (May 6, 2009)

The Critique Forum didn't work THEN, and Critique Forums don't work NOW (on other photography forums I know), for in the end everyone comes round to every forum to speak their piece, qualified or not, no matter where, so why have a SPECIAL forum where the very same is being said in the end as is being said (or at least could be said) in all the other forums. 

Post your picture, ask for C&C, better even: ask specific questions you are curious about and then any of the forums here should work.


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## bjorkfiend (May 6, 2009)

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## Moglex (May 6, 2009)

bjorkfiend said:


> _Most_ TPF members regard _EVERY_ thread as a C&C thread.  Posting a picture and saying 'C&C Please' does nothing around here.  If you post it, regardless of intent, you _will_ get C&C.  *That* is why something is needed to separate real C&C requests from the rest.  Whether that is a forum or a designation or merely enforcement of a "don't C&C unless it's asked for" rule, I don't know.  But the "open season" that is going on around here make me, and many others, not want to post photos at all.  Isn't it odd that nearly 1.5 _million_ members (384 were simultaneously online at the time of this posting) can only muster a dozen or so photos in the "non-beginner" sections over the period of a few days?



Maybe the site needs a 'My photo's are/are not OK to criticise' tag to go with the 'edit' one.


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## JerryPH (May 6, 2009)

- Most people admit that they are not qualified to CC a picture.

- Some people who are not qualified do so anyways.

- A few who are qualified don't even have calibrated monitors and shouldn't be irrespective (at least from the WB brightness, etc... perspective).  

- The ones who are qualified, have calibrated equipment may not understand what the shooter's goal or point of a shot was from the perspective of the shooter, rendering it a bad or improper C&C.

All that said... good CC is hard to come by.  Personally, the best person to critique one's work is yourself.  Beginners do not really care much about calibration, white balance or the zen of photography... tell them it is blurry and needs cropping and and they are happy and gain something.  Short of that... things fall down fast after that.

This is mostly why good CC is difficult to find.


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## TiCoyote (May 6, 2009)

The way I see it, there are two reasons I might post a photo:  
1.  I'm proud of it, and I want to learn how to make it better.  I'm showing you the extent of my skills, and I want you to help me _extend_ them further.  

2.  Something went wrong, and I can't figure out how to fix it.  Again, I'm hoping to develop skills.  

In both cases, I'm posting because I want feedback.  I love compliments, but if I want to become a better photographer, I need criticism as well.  If I just wanted people to "ooh" and "aah," well then I would just show the photos to my mom.  

That being said, I'm sure there are people who want to post and do not want C&C, and I'm sure there are a variety of reasons they feel this way.  Also, it's hard to give good, constructive feedback.  Nobody wants to hurt anyone's feelings, particularly a stranger or a respected colleague.  Comments can be misconstrued and discussions become volatile quickly.  Also, what "I like" is subjective, and will not always be productive information.  

Personally, I want detailed comments about what works and what does not, and why.  Suggested alternative can be helpful, but this is not always the case.


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## bjorkfiend (May 6, 2009)

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## Moglex (May 6, 2009)

bjorkfiend said:


> It seems to me that there is a misconception that a photography forum is, by default, a haven for technical knowledge.  What happened to the community aspect?
> 
> I a computer programmer and own a software company.  I spend 14 - 16 hours a day writing and reading technical and legal documents.  Photography is my _hobby_ and, though I want to do it well, I don't _always_ want to study.  In the event that I find time to take pictures, and some come out well (by my standards anyway), I might want to share my pride with others.  That can't happen on TPF unless your work is absolutely spotless.  Even then it's often met with "not my style" or "boring, everyone is doing it..." comments.  I, personally, haven't had a problem with unsolicited critiques as most of mine have been offered with thoughtful maturity.  However, I can hardly stand to browse the forums most days because of the downright crap posted throughout.
> 
> What's so wrong about wanting to share your feeling of accomplishment with your "friends" on TPF?  Do your call your RL friends egotists when they proudly share a crappy painting to you and take offense when you critique it?



So, seriously, the site needs something like a 'My photo's are/are not OK to criticise' tag to go with the 'edit' one.

If people are being put off displaying their photo's that's an answer.

Another would be a forum for people to post pictures that they do *not* want criticised. So if you post it in a normal forum it's open season but if you don't want cricisim there's somewhere to go.


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## LaFoto (May 6, 2009)

bjorkfiend said:


> That can't happen on TPF unless your work is absolutely spotless.


 
I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here). 

I'm not saying my photography is spotless. 
But after so and so many years of taking photos, I can no longer claim to be the absolute beginner who needs guidance in the world of photography. 

Which has gradually placed me in the land of "nobody". 
I have given so many comments. Sooo many.
I get nothing in return from this forum any more.
The conclusion I draw from the usual 0 replies-posts I keep getting is that my photography must (!) be the most boring of the whole wide world ... I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...


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## bjorkfiend (May 6, 2009)

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## Moglex (May 6, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> Which has gradually placed me in the land of "nobody".
> I have given so many comments. Sooo many.
> I get nothing in return from this forum any more.
> The conclusion I draw from the usual 0 replies-posts I keep getting is that my photography must (!) be the most boring of the whole wide world ... I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...



I think people were put off providing critiques because there always seemed to be a post floating around moaning about people saying positive things about photo's that were less than 100%. Obviously one doesn't want to be saying negative things all the time and it's good to be able to say something nice but not if you are then yourself criticised for not being sufficiently critical.


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## NateS (May 6, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
> Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).
> 
> I'm not saying my photography is spotless.
> ...



I'm the same exact way.  When I post new photos, I usually post them here and one other forum.  Most cases I always get 2-4 times the amount of replies on the other forum and quite honestly, there are a lot more advanced users on the other forum than on here.....they still comment and/or critique though.


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

First off I have to laugh at comments like Jerry's about who is qualified to give crits...Critiques are nothing more than personal opinions of how a (in this case) photo stirs emotion to the individual. Therefore anyone is "qualified" to give a critique. I have seen photos that had many, many, technical flaws but in the case of specific photos those flaws are what made them great photos. 
Now if a person wants advice on how to improve a specific element of a photo, such as lighting, or DOF, etc...then yes, it would be better for someone with more experience to address that issue. But overall critique can come from anyone, even someone who doesn't own a camera. Why should we be so arrogant to assume that only a professional photographer has the right to tell someone that a picture would look better cropped different, or that it is under/over exposed? Anyone who looks at it will have opinions and regardless of experience those opinions many times give the photog a new concept or idea to work with.
 To me this is the main problem with this site and one that bothers me the most...to many big headed people that look down from their high thrones of photography excellence and sneer at the common people who wish to participate.


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## bjorkfiend (May 6, 2009)

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## LarryD (May 6, 2009)

So.

Is it because so many new photographers gain a little knowledge...like the much overused "learn about the rule of thirds" comments, and throw those around, even to accomplished photographers that is turning everybody off posting photos ?

............

I notice that the most active board is the beginner board.....but the actual boards where real photography should be displayed, and yes, a community formed, seldom have more than a couple of viewers..

I posted a few times in the Landscape board, where my interest lies........but no community comments ever emerged.........

So, I still visit on occasion....but I haven't posted a photo in a while... It doesn't seem like anybody is interested in seeing Landscapes. But then I think; maybe I'm part of the problem... I love to look at great photos... but I hardly every say what I like about them..

So, what needs to be done to get the actual photography boards back to community interaction boards with great photos, great interaction, and minimal negativity........


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## rufus5150 (May 6, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).



You seem to have to be on either end of the spectrum, either really good or really bad. I don't have as much time to post critique any more as I used to, but I found myself having to cherry pick. I tried to go for the more 'not perfect' but 'way better than average' but it's hard sometimes. From the perspective of critiquing, the typical technical issues are low-hanging fruit.


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

One problem I have seen is when someone gives their opinion, to many times someone else will come behind and slam that person for having that opinon. To me it all comes down to personal preference. I might like dark photos, and John Doe may like brite photos, so if I say "Your photo IMO would look better darker." John Doe comes on and tells me I am wrong it would look better brighter, and I am such an idiot for posting my opinion. thus starting a flame that gets way off the topic and ignores the OP. If I post a photos for critique and everytime my thread gets highjacked by a few people who would rather argue over personal opinion rather than discuss my issue, then why would I want to post anymore?


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

I look at it like this....the confrontation itself among others during a C&C is a C&C within itself.  Plenty of great facts / info / techniques / views will be thrown back and fourth during the thread discussion.  So, I say, either learn to take the punches and take notes, or do not use an internet forum lol.


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/feedback-suggestions/162889-pro-critique-suggestion.html

mostly what I have to say in critique for any level - I view it as a communication and I see a lot of posts where the thread starter is asking for C&C but is going no further than to post a few (at best) or a lot (at worst) images and then sit back and wait for the comments and advice to come in - which often fails unless its a risky shot or something is really standing out as right or wrong. 

So that is the first step = puting more effort into the thread at the start can really help get better and more constructive comments and really helps people to understand where you are comming from. 

Secondly I think some people need to understand that whilst they are not the Ansel Adams of photography they are better than average and that they have moved beyond what many are able to critizise - at this point you have to move to the fewer more advanced photographers for aid (sadly too many on the site have been burned and no longer talk in the open sections) or start to assess your work yourself - to put onself through the process of assess just what the photo is about and what you were aiming for - heck when I started this was not something I could do and now - now I am only just starting to really understand this aspect. Its a mindset change and its an experience aspect as well.

As for the history of TPF it seems we have had a long time where people had long fights over images over comments over crits and soon the images are forgotten and its all egos that are left. Honestly the only savour  I can see for that is what many would consider "over moderation" - harsh yes, but it would help keep people in check!
At the moment though I feel this is a line that is not really open to us and sadly I feel that the worst part is that our current site owners are not putting the effort into the community aspect of the site - and that means things start to unthread at the start.

What can we as members do - well we can post long and endless threads like this to vent in - then we can do and do something. What that something is is dependant on the person and how they feel about things.

Myself I feel a good course in manners would help some members of the site a lot.....

Over(not giving up on the dead duck yet)read

edit - late nights and drink might help critiquing though!
http://www.zarias.com/?p=372


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

+1 to the late night drinking rofl


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

ShotGunNik said:


> I look at it like this....the confrontation itself among others during a C&C is a C&C within itself. Plenty of great facts / info / techniques / views will be thrown back and fourth during the thread discussion. So, I say, either learn to take the punches and take notes, or do not use an internet forum lol.


 
That's true if the discussion is over solid technical aspects...but to say that my opinion is wrong is wrong in itself....its my personal opinon...just like I love to eat sushi...if you don't like sushi, that doesn't make me "wrong" for liking it and there should be no arguement over that fact. You will not give an opinion that changes my taste.


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

DRoberts said:


> That's true if the discussion is over solid technical aspects...but to say that my opinion is wrong is wrong in itself....its my personal opinon...just like I love to eat sushi...if you don't like sushi, that doesn't make me "wrong" for liking it and there should be no arguement over that fact. You will not give an opinion that changes my taste.


 

Exactly, but as well, common sense or personal judgement can help a reader make a decision during a dispute / discussion and either move on, take notes, or close the window.


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## Arch (May 6, 2009)

Well Jerry is right to a degree... a good critique isn't just about whether you like the photo or not, its about taking into consideration what the photographer set out to achieve and giving feedback on if the image achieves the set goals or not.
This way of critique is what i was taught at college and is what often seperates the art educted and the self taught. This is not being elietist in any way, its just in a college learning environment you are forced to do crit sessions in a group every other week.... self taught you are not exposed this and its not something that can be learned easily over the internet.

The best person to explain the philosophy of the critique is Hertz.


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Very well said.


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

I can agree with Arch on this, as long as its given with the right attitude of helping, rather than insulting as many are.
Another issue I have seen is that some people seem to think that the number of post you have on here is a direct reflection on an individuals experience or knowledge level. I have actually seen people post "who does X person think they are? They only have X amount of post." If Irving Penn or Eugene Smith ( if still alive) joined the forum should their opinions not be heeded just because they don't have thousands of post?


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## TiCoyote (May 6, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
> You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).
> 
> ... I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...







I understand how you feel, and I want to share my experience from sitting in many art and writing classes, at both the head and the foot of the table. I think the problem we're running into is a lack of structure. Maybe if we put together small groups of individuals, 8 people or so, with similar abilities in sort of "online critique circles" this could help. The groups would post and C&C together for 8 weeks or so, and then adapt, disband, or shift. If they stayed the same forever, we'd end up preaching to the same choir. Every week, we could have an assignment. Each member would list general goals at the beginning, which would help us focus our feedback, and everyone would expect 8 sets of feedback from the same people who watched as we develop (no pun intended) our skills.


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

TiCoyote said:


> I understand how you feel, and I want to share my experience from sitting in many art and writing classes, at both the head and the foot of the table. I think the problem we're running into is a lack of structure. Maybe if we put together small groups of individuals, 8 people or so, with similar abilities in sort of "online critique circles" this could help. The groups would post and C&C together for 8 weeks or so, and then adapt, disband, or shift. If they stayed the same forever, we'd end up preaching to the same choir. Every week, we could have an assignment. Each member would list general goals at the beginning, which would help us focus our feedback, and everyone would expect 8 sets of feedback from the same people who watched as we develop (no pun intended) our skills.


 
That would work well in a smaller setting. Do you think it be applicable to the wide range and volume of work on here? It would require alot of time for those specific individuals to do this and it would have to be placed in a common sub-forum, thus bringing us back to the original topic of a critique forum.


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

It does sound like a lot of work - but I am sitting here thinking that we can pull it off!
This forum has a massive membership base of active members - heck just look at how many we have online right now - so we have the members and we seem to have a lot looking for C&C at the moment!

Part of me is feeling that these groups would need/want an experienced photographer standing over them (as it were) to help give some focus and to guide their thoughts along the right lines - so as to help prevent them from going down poor routs or not expanding their understanding (just sticking with basic exposure and rule of 3rds for example) that is the area where I feel we might have a problem or we might not if others just take interest in the threads generated by such groups.


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Would a strict thread help?  Have it regulated by mods to keep it strictly for Professional C&C for whom ever posts their work?


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

No.
I see this as being more an idea of letting people be free (within the bounds of polite and civil conduct) with their thoughts rather than forcing them down a certain line. Also by the nature of the project the people doing most of the commenting would not be "pros" as yet - they are learning that . Its about pulling together people into more of a community rather than just everyone asking for C&C make them give some too.

Heck one thing is that if youare forced to comment on works that are not the sort you personaly like that much that can bring with it a lot of different views and also help expand the views of the person commenting as well as those on the reciving end - they get to hear the thoughts of others who are not automatically going to like the subject matter.


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Overread said:


> No.
> I see this as being more an idea of letting people be free (within the bounds of polite and civil conduct) with their thoughts rather than forcing them down a certain line. Also by the nature of the project the people doing most of the commenting would not be "pros" as yet - they are learning that . Its about pulling together people into more of a community rather than just everyone asking for C&C make them give some too.
> 
> Heck one thing is that if youare forced to comment on works that are not the sort you personaly like that much that can bring with it a lot of different views and also help expand the views of the person commenting as well as those on the reciving end - they get to hear the thoughts of others who are not automatically going to like the subject matter.


 

I totally agree to all of that, but good luck to finding the perfect balance lol.  I only stated the moderated thread dedicated to strict C&C since it seems some want that, but otherwise, I believe that all should be welcome for a true honest C&C both from a pro perspedtive and beginner.  Hell, how else are interested photographers supposed to become more skillled and knowledged?


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

Well the more heavily moderated idea is one that I have tried to float on the forum - link in my first post in this thread - though as yet only one person has taken up the idea (from what I saw though it went well  but not mod input as yet to that idea.

this would I think be a good addition to that idea - encourage people to talk to each other more!


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Hell, this thread seems to be doing good so far (ooops, hopefully I didn't speak too soon lol j/k)


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

You would also be limiting the resource of ideas from a wide range of people, to that of a select few. As stated before there would be alot of redundancy to it. I think critiques should stay open for all to comment, I just think people should just post there thought on the topic and not let it get into pissing matches over ideas. Post your opinion and move on. If asked to explain an aspect of your critique then do so, but otherwise, let the OP decide what they want to take from it.


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

I get that point, but I think the overall mood is that people arn't even getting that at the moment - I think we hav an overdose of seekers and an underdose of teachers - so we can make some seekers share what they have (they have eyes to give a view - it might not be the perfect view and they might not know how to fix things, but they still have a view). 
Certainly threads would remain open to all to comment on - just that a group of ( say 8) people would have to take notice of others posts - or maybe only a few posts per week (say best 3 photos per week or somesuch - one photo per thread of course!)


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Precisely, to continue to have a good fluid movement of communication as such in this thread would work just fine lol.


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## DRoberts (May 6, 2009)

Then there would have to be standards on what would "qualify" these individuals for this role, and by what incintive would they be governed by, as far as participation requirements, etc...it would be alot of work to get organized and implemented properly. Furthermore it would take the support of admins and mods to create the proper sub-forum and oversee it. Almost would be a fulltime job...lol.


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## ShotGunNik (May 6, 2009)

Well, judging form how this thread is rolling on by, I would say, doing something exactly like we've accomplished thus far in this thread would suffice in an accomplished C&C thread.


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## abraxas (May 6, 2009)

Maybe just get a server and start from scratch?


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## Overread (May 6, 2009)

too much effort that 
and it costs!


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## abraxas (May 6, 2009)

Overread said:


> too much effort that
> and it costs!



There's your problem.


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## craig (May 6, 2009)

My feeling is that Crit's are essential in a photographers progress. That means pro, amateur or whatever. Basically it is essential throughout your photo journey. Problem is that the web  will forever have restrictions inhibiting a strong critique. First off the web (does not at this time or in my opinion) hold a decent resolution or image size to view a photo. More importantly there is a serious lack of communication between the op and the person posting said crit. Random "C&C pleaz" and people responding with the way they would have shot the photo only goes so far. Mostly people just get upset.

Keep in mind that I feel random web comments are fun and slightly helpful. Just take them with a grain of salt. Main thing is to understand web comments and or lack there of. If you take your photography seriously you will have to interact with people.

Love & Bass


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## TiCoyote (May 7, 2009)

I've noticed that there is a "groups" and a "friends" feature on this site.  I wouldn't want to propose abandoning the message board.  Maybe if we just set up a group within the board.  We would try our utmost to post once per week, and comment on each of the posts once per week.  Of course, any other comments would always be welcome.  There's probably a way to send a message to the members of the group when one of us posts new photos.  

In terms of a balance of students and teachers, there's a lot to be said in educational philosophy that all students are teachers (and the other way round).


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## ShotGunNik (May 7, 2009)

So far, all suggestions are pretty legit, its just like I've said, moving forward with this same mentality of communication.


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## Garbz (May 8, 2009)

The problem with critique is that art is subjective. How can someone say something is "a better way" when someone else who picks "a different way" is equally right.

Ultimately a critique only forum is just a place to stick all arguments in the one place.


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## ShotGunNik (May 8, 2009)

That is also true because art is different in so many ways for each individual and their own view on the subject matter or piece.   So in the event that a member is telling another member,"Although your shot was great, you should do it like this...." or "Although your post processing is good, I think it would be better if you tried something different..." I believe its more of suggestions for that person as a tool for self-refinement with either their photo technique, post processing of their work, etc.  And this is where individuals such as ourselves can assist with continueing to let the thread flow into more of suggestive comments than attacks or random comments.  

I think if as a group people would set an example of communication lined with some sort of a collective common sense of what's being discussed, events such as disputes and what not would be avoided or atleast tuned down greatly.


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## craig (May 8, 2009)

In reality if someone posts the most feeble photo riddled with problems it becomes a feeding frenzy. All of a sudden every Tom, Dick or Harry who has been to a Strobist meeting points out flaws that the OP has no control over after he has shot the photo. They are helpful, but it quickly resembles banging your head against a wall. On the other hand if someone posts 2 versions of a strong photo with exif info and detailed questions they get no response. What does that tell you? 

When we say that art is subjective it is my feeling that is wrong. Liking or admiring the photo should have nothing to do with a critique. Personally I feel that it is more important to understand what the photographer is trying to say and help him toward that goal. Time and time again TPF has proven that can not be accomplished. 

Now... If yous guys think you can pull it together talk to the mods. We all wait in anticipation. If you want to get silly between now and then read John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" and the incomparable Susan Sontag's "On Photography"

Love & Bass


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## stsinner (May 8, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...



Wow..  That would be a shame, Corinna...  I've become disenchanted, as well..  From people getting defensive about your critique after they ask for it, and, yes, it really is amazing how all the new members come and ask the same questions about aperture, ISO, White Balance, etc..  I saw the bitching about it when I was new, but didn't believe it..  Now, I understand the frustrations of those of us who have been here a while with the constant repetition of the same basic questions, but they are hungry for knowledge, and it is nice to ask a question and have it answered pointedly to you..  I can attest to that..  I'd much rather ask a simple question and have it answered by a pro than to go searching for an answer, that way I can ask that pro for clarification of change up the equipment setup or setting and get a second opinion on what I should do..  You can't do that with Wiki...  

I really think that this should be more a a sharing and comments forum and light on the C&C, because DPS seems to have the school end of it locked up...  Just my 0.02..  Shooters love to take pictures and hear comments, just as a man loves to cook a nice steak on the grill and his guests compliment his cooking...  

I have really enjoyed my time here, even though I've been threatened with a ban several times, and some of the members have gotten their panties in a twist over some honest comments, so I'll always visit and post once in a while, and I'll tell you this-I'm a MUCH better photographer because of this site..  Big Mike has been an awesome help and inspiration with his calm and level-headed and succinct comments.  There are others, but the hot wings are beeping, and I'm gonna go snag them outta the oven....


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## WhineAndDine (May 8, 2009)

im really new to this forum.  im a part of at least 6 other forums.  ranging from trucks, to aquariums, to computers....a whole bunch of things.  in all honesty, this forum has been the least helpful and supportive.  i haven't made too many CC requests, but ive read a ton of posts where others have asked for help.  what i see is someone posting their opinion, and then another person hating on that person for posting their opinion.  then it just goes downhill from there.  some people on here are fairly full of themselves.  and thats understandable because photography is an art form, and artists are often full of themselves.


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## inTempus (May 8, 2009)

WhineAndDine said:


> some people on here are fairly full of themselves.  and thats understandable because photography is an art form, and artists are often full of themselves.


Not always...

You have 4 basic types of personalities.

Dominate - 12% of the population
Expressive - 19% of the population
Analytical - 37% of the population
Amiable - 32% of the population

Most people will have a primary and secondary personality trait.  Example, I'm Analytical/Amiable according to a recent test.  Both are actually low assertive personality traits, and people in my group account for the majority of the population.  Most peoples' personalities will shift when under pressure.  My dominance shoots through the roof when my stress level goes up.  But once the stress is gone, I revert back to my primary/secondary traits.

The high assertive groups (Dominate and Expressive) are the ones that insert themselves into every conversation, always act as if they're in charge and like to tell others how to behave or what to do.  They usually speak in terms of "I" or "me" and are usually perceived as being more aggressive/less personable.  They rarely admit fault, almost never believe they are at fault and certainly can't be bothered with an apology because they're not team players.  They lack social skills.  When under stress, their dominance typically increases... they don't usually become more analytical or amiable.

Even though Dominate/Expressives only account for 31% of the population, they seem like they're more prevalent because of their behavior.  

Artists typically are Expressive.  While this is a high assertive personality trait it's not always one that is perceived as being aggressive.  They are usually very talkative, make lots of hand gestures when talking, and sometimes even think aloud.  Generally, they talk too much.  But they can be opinionated which is often misunderstood as being too assertive.

So, I submit that this form is really no better or worse than other forums regardless if we're "artists" or not.  We just have a handful of dominate personalities that go unchecked and fluster new users from time to time.

Wasn't that fun?  I'm REALLY-REALLY bored and it's 11:30pm here.  I really need to take a sleeping pill or something vs. driving you guys nuts with the goofy stuff I just posted.


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## Anubis (May 9, 2009)

What about having a poll with the ability to award stars for composition, exposure, aethstetics (sp?)? This would serve two purposes, firstly people who pehaps don't want to articulate their opinion can still quickly rate a photo, and secondly it would give people who do want to comment a set of areas on which to base their replies

The submitter would be able to see straight away which area needs work.

What are the categories on which art would be critiqued in the professional world?


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## WhineAndDine (May 9, 2009)

ugh... dont get me started on the polls on this forum.  the method they choose to conduct polls are archaic.  every other forum im a part of has the pictures on the actual poll page location.  but for here, they insist on uploading pictures to a separate gallery, which you have to navigate to, then remember the title of the photo, then go back to the poll page, and vote for the photo of the month.

I have a strong feeling this is the reason there aren't as many votes as there should be.

Just make a poll and then immediately under that, put the pictures.  i personally guarantee you will have at least 20x more votes this way.


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## Overread (May 9, 2009)

I had some time now - some help for people:

How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C)

Photographic workshops


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## terri (May 9, 2009)

TiCoyote said:


> I've noticed that there is a "groups" and a "friends" feature on this site. I wouldn't want to propose abandoning the message board. Maybe if we just set up a group within the board.


At last - someone is suggesting something that could actually work. :cheer:

I want to make a few points crystal clear here, in an effort to spread the word among the membership should there be more threads raised about C&C.

First: there have been a couple of full blown efforts at formalizing photographic critique here at TPF over the years. We had an informal model which ultimately failed, and a much stricter model which ultimately failed. In both cases, moderators were heavily involved.

Second: the forum's membership has grown beyond being *moderated* by a handful of mods. Please understand that adding more mods is not going to give you what you think you want. The mods are here now to enforce the guidelines expressed in the FAQ's, to listen to feedback about certain issues, and help with contests, spam or threads as needed, etc. But TPF today is a very different place than the TPF of yesteryear, so many aspects of site planning and growth now rests in the hands of dedicated membership - like yourselves.

Which leads me to point Three: in recent years, what has been most effective is when certain activities in the site are _member-driven_. The mods generally keep out of it and you are free to manage yourselves. Two cases in point: the Fight Club and Box Turtle contests, and the Photo Assignments forum. All the moderator involvement was setting up the forums, and occasionally stepping in to help. This is an appropriate model for what works on a huge forum with a handful of moderators. We cannot - and should not - be there to get involved in every tiff or discussion about "What can we do to better TPF?" 

One more point (yeah, I'm wordy) :razz: As TiCoyote demonstrates, there are a lot of great features on this site that remain under-utilized. By all means - start a group or three! Members can create and manage their own groups, to their own satisfaction. You could have a group called C&C for Beginners, one for C&C for Intermediate, or C&C by a volunteer panel - you are limited only by your own imaginations. You don't need a mod's input or permission, as long as you remain within forum guidelines. 

I'm also going to take advantage of your attention to plug another useful feature that sadly gets overlooked: the Ignore List. If there is a member with whom you do not get along, go to your control panel and add them to your Ignore List, and never read their stupid blathering comments again. You don't need a moderator. You can control your destiny. All of life should be so beautiful. 

Okay, so - 'nuff said. I would love to see you get together and run with it. Organize it here, or take the discussion to the first Group. Enjoy!


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## manaheim (May 9, 2009)

Overread said:


> too much effort that
> and it costs!


 
I can host a forum if you like.   I could have it up in, oh, 10 minutes?


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## manaheim (May 9, 2009)

There's a lot going on in this thread.

Before I start yammering incoherrently because I'm exhaused and hopped up on some excellent pain meds at the moment, let me credentialize myself a bit.  Pardon me if this sounds, um... dominant.  

I've been in IT and particularly in the web and hosting spaces for about 15 years now.  I specialize in improving organizations and electronic service offerings and have saved corporations tens of millions of dollars, improved adoption rates of community technologies within firms from less than 3% to well over 90%, etc.  I live and breathe in this space that we're agonizing over right now. 

Ok, enough of that. 

In general, I do think there are certain areas where this community as a whole is lacking in it's ability to meet the needs and wants of, um, itself. 

For example, Teri mentioned groups.  Now groups seems like a great idea... right up to the point where you actually try to use them.   Go check it out.  (first, find them if you can)  Then see how much functionality is afforded.  It's really nowhere near the capabilities of the core forum, so people don't use them probably mainly because they don't help much.

Some folks here have mentioned small more formalized circles of folks to handle certain kinds of functions, such as critique.  Now this is very much what Teri is talking about, and it works well, but the technology must support it to make it a success.  Since groups probably won't hack it, you need something else... what?  Well, in a more dynamic setup like ClearSpace, groups could form little subcommunities with all the same functionality as the core community, just focused differently.   These can come and go with rise and fall of popularity or success like a real dynamic living thing... very powerful.  From what I've seen vBulletin can't really do this.

In the absence of technology support, people can try more people-powered methods to get these kinds of things done.  Like, perhaps someone such as Overread sets up an elite band of critiquing people and they all agree to act as a team responding to each and every post in the General Gallery from 12-5 EST M-F or something like that.

Something like this could work, but MAN is it a lot of time and work to manage.  In fact, it sounds very much like WORK.  Speaking as someone who has foolishly run a "guild" in a major online game, I can say with conviction that this eats your life and will eventually fall apart.

As Terri mentioned, there were some forums setup previously for specific things... (TPF Fight Club, for example)  I think this would work, but I think the mods would have to be a lot more willing to set these up and break them down with relative frequency as the community evolves over time.  It's admittedly a lot of work.

I also think to make this work that the mods would have to be willing to extend the moderation capabilities to certain folks for certain areas.  Again, the overread example... say he decides to get his band of 8 merry men and women and setup camp in a subforum... "The Overread Critque Squad", where there is a very structured approach to posting and getting critique... then he and his merry band would probably need the ability to moderate that forum pretty aggressively to have that work.

So far, though, it seems that change around here is a bit limited.  I understand the community has been around a while and our hosts feel they know pretty well what works and what doesn't, and "we've tried that before and it failed", and such... the problem, however, is that I do think we lose a lot of talented and/or well-meaning folks here because of our inability or unwillingness to adapt a bit.

And I have one thing to say about "it's been tried before..."  Sometimes things fail for reasons other than the merit of the idea itself, if you know what I mean.  Just because it failed once... twice... or three times... does NOT mean it will fail again.  I can attest to this as I have a great deal of experience in this area.

All that said, my personal opinion is some major stuff would have to happen differently to make this work...

Either...

1. We switch to a new core technology to host the community.  (massive undertaking and highly unlikely)
2. We get a bit more flexible about deputizing mods and allowing the creation of subforums around particular ideas to make the community better.
3. Someone else sets up a new community and we all move. 

That being said, TPF is a business.  I don't know how much money they make, but they evidently make some.  To some degree, as long as the money keeps flowing, there may not be a compelling reason to go overly outside of the norm of "what works".  I don't get the sense that our benefactors are quite that cold, but it's something to keep in mind.


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## Bitter Jeweler (May 9, 2009)

Overread said:


> I get that point, but I think the overall mood is that people arn't even getting that at the moment - I think we hav an overdose of seekers and an underdose of teachers - so we can make some seekers share what they have (they have eyes to give a view - it might not be the perfect view and they might not know how to fix things, but they still have a view).
> Certainly threads would remain open to all to comment on - just that a group of ( say 8) people would have to take notice of others posts - or maybe only a few posts per week (say best 3 photos per week or somesuch - one photo per thread of course!)


 

I am enjoying reading this topic. As a new member, rusty camera background (beginer-again), with an arts background, and a professional jeweler/designer, I know what I hope to get out of this. Overread hit the nail on the head. A lot of us want feedback, and there is not enough given. What Overread is suggesting in his first sentence is exactly how Critiques were done in all my art classes at Uni. There was often only one professional and 15-20 seekers. Well, we had group critiques where we went around the room and each person had to comment on each others work. It was invaluable. You can often learn more this way. Everyones opinion should be taken in a manner that makes you think. You can defend your position till the cows come home, but if you don't even consider and think about someone elses opinion, you lose.

Now being new, I am eager to put up every pic I take and get C&C.  But I have already learned to be more patient and post "the best" of a session, or an image that troubles me. I realize most of my shots are "nice" but nothing spectacular. Hearing what others like about a shot, helps me think about how to shoot. It won't dictate my style, but I can always keep that info as a tool.

I have been uncomfortable responding to others seeking C&C, because, well, who the hell am I? Right? Well, I look back at my education and realize I _can_ say something. I realize that while I am not an expert, my comments might at least make someone think. They can think I am totally wrong, but as long as they did some thinking, it's all good. Right? I am vowing to comment more on others offerings.:thumbup:

I have only come across one instance where someone said something kind of rude, but in my mind warranted, and the OP got all defensive. Continuing to follow the thread, I totally felt it was warranted. Rude, but right on the money. But overall, my sense of this forum is pretty welcoming to new people. If people can't take criticism, they shouldn't ask for it.

As far as C&C, I was wondering if somehow people could ask specifically what they are looking for. Like for me, I want to know more about my compostion, than my tech. I know when my shots are out of focus, and often you can't run out and retake the shot to correct that. So sometimes I want to know (if this image were in focus) is this a strong comp. Sometimes focus is part of the compositon, so, theres that. 

I look forward to seeing how this comes together, because it could be a wonderful thing. :mrgreen:

David



Garbz said:


> The problem with critique is that art is subjective. How can someone say something is "a better way" when someone else who picks "a different way" is equally right.
> 
> Ultimately a critique only forum is just a place to stick all arguments in the one place.


 Isn't it wise to hear "different ways"? Just because there may be two means to the same end, does not mean the "other way" will never be usefull.


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## Anubis (May 10, 2009)

Another idea may be an invite only/hidden board where people who offer sensible and helpful critique in the main forums are invited to join. Much the same way I imagine moderators are chosen. Then you would have a C&C forum without the "bad eggs" which in turn would probably lead to more stuff being posted in that forum ...rewarding people who make the effort to contribute.


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## SympL (May 10, 2009)

LaFoto said:


> I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
> Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).
> 
> I'm not saying my photography is spotless.
> ...


 
I take it you are not happy with your current salary as a Mod here at TPF.
Corinna, I have been a Moderator on three forums over the years and I believe I can safely say things are no different anywhere. In fact, I would like to have $10 for every time I have seen a similar thread to this one over the years. The basics of all forums are the same, and like this one, some are just a little more user friendly than the others.
As I see it, the best thing these forums have to offer is the wealth of knowledge available to the 'newbie' photographer. Those that truly have a passion to learn about the art can/will do so by being a member of a forum such as this. Those people, Corinna, are the ones that will benefit most from your experience and knowledge of the art. When you post an image, those people get to go to school on your image, those people will hopefully grasp some inspiration from your work. Will you know who they are? Perhaps not, but that is what you have to offer by being first, an experienced photographer and second, by being a Moderator on a forum that opens its doors to beginners.
Good Luck to you. I hope you hang in.


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## terri (May 11, 2009)

Anubis said:


> Another idea may be an invite only/hidden board where people who offer sensible and helpful critique in the main forums are invited to join. Much the same way I imagine moderators are chosen. Then you would have a C&C forum without the "bad eggs" which in turn would probably lead to more stuff being posted in that forum ...rewarding people who make the effort to contribute.


Again....it's a "Group", using the existing features of this vB application, and it can be member-driven and member-controlled.

Guys, you're doing a whole lot of talking but no organizing.  You seem to want the moderators to design something that, in reality, can more readily be approached and controlled by YOU. After prior moderator-guided attempts (that ultimately failed), I strongly believe you will collectively be happier if you design and run your own critique area. I repeat - one of you only take the initiative to start a user's group here for C&C, and invite a few people to lay out your own guidelines. There should be no heavy-handed moderator involvement needed, unless there is a violation of basic TPF guidelines, which is not likely. 

I encourage you all to go for it.


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## Overread (May 11, 2009)

*since its a new page and all posts his ads again 
post structure advice
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...e-your-posts-get-critiques-your-work-c-c.html

workshop groups!
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...to-gallery/164579-photographic-workshops.html

idea not quite off the ground yet (one working example somewhere which did work)
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/feedback-suggestions/162889-pro-critique-suggestion.html


oh and lets not forget:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/125099-official-mentors-bio-list.html


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