# Future wedding second shooter- Question?



## TWright33 (Feb 21, 2014)

I have, in the last week, been trying to contact places that could need my services with photography.

Mainly real estate companies in my general area. This because they always have horrible pictures on their websites and I can also help them with building their website.

I also contacted a local wedding photographer that I know on a person to person level to see about being a second shooter. I asked her if she would be interested in me being a second shooter at a couple of weddings and then if everything worked out I could shoot at future weddings. Then I gave her the link to my Flickr.

Fast forward a couple of days and she says she would love for me to be a second shooter and asks what equipment I am using and what I post process with. 

So the reason I am telling you this, when should I (if this works out of course) mention anything about compensation? I am obviously at first just wanting the experience and I do not expect any comp. However, if this turns into something where I am actually providing good usable material I want the compensation at that point.

Also, would you guys think some type of contract would be a good idea? If so is there anything out there already that I could use? I don't think I will ever have any problems, but I'm not a fool either and know that it is a possibility.


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## Designer (Feb 21, 2014)

My personal opinion needs to be understood as if I myself were the prospective second shooter wanting to break in to the business.  Because I don't know your situation.

The first shoot I would expect nothing.  I would do the absolute best that I could, including thinking of any extra things that I could do to make her day go smoothly.  I would do everything she asked, including post-capture editing on my own shots.  I would expect to put in more than a full day at the ceremony, and another one at post, if asked.  If she then offered me money after the whole thing was over, I would graciously accept whatever amount she offered.  

The second shoot is where I would bring up the topic, and negotiate a contract, pay, and specified duties at that time.


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## TWright33 (Feb 21, 2014)

Designer said:


> My personal opinion needs to be understood as if I myself were the prospective second shooter wanting to break in to the business.  Because I don't know your situation.
> 
> The first shoot I would expect nothing.  I would do the absolute best that I could, including thinking of any extra things that I could do to make her day go smoothly.  I would do everything she asked, including post-capture editing on my own shots.  I would expect to put in more than a full day at the ceremony, and another one at post, if asked.  If she then offered me money after the whole thing was over, I would graciously accept whatever amount she offered.
> 
> The second shoot is where I would bring up the topic, and negotiate a contract, pay, and specified duties at that time.



Yes, this is exactly what I was needing. I am expecting to do the first wedding or two at absolutely know payment.

I was thinking after the second one if she didn't bring up the topic of compensation then I would myself. Politely of course.


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## Designer (Feb 21, 2014)

TWright33 said:


> I was thinking after the second one if she didn't bring up the topic of compensation then I would myself. Politely of course.



Uh, no.  If you are contributing to the business, then you need to be compensated.  The rate will be between the two of you, but you should not do a second one for free. 

JMHO.


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## vintagesnaps (Feb 21, 2014)

Now! that's when. I'd be finding out up front and make sure it's clear what your responsibilities are and what her expectations are, etc. I'd get something in writing. She might be glad to have a second shooter who will work for free, that will be saving her the expense of hiring someone; things could change if payment/compensation comes into it. If the compensation would be or would include using photos in your portfolio find out about releases.

Did you read the thread where someone has a client five years after the wedding now wanting photos? You don't want in the future for a problem related to this to come up. You don't want to use the photos in your portfolio (especially online) and then find out later if the bride and groom didn't give permission for usage. I'd make sure you're covered on everything related to this.


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## JoeW (Feb 22, 2014)

TWright33 said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > My personal opinion needs to be understood as if I myself were the prospective second shooter wanting to break in to the business.  Because I don't know your situation.
> ...



I think you need a different mindset on this.  Yes, I'd view the first shoot as one about learning the ropes, getting experience, making an impression and also you deciding if this is what you want to do.  B/c all of the best wedding photographers I know of who make a living from this, THIS (wedding photography) is probably 80-95% of their business (shooting weddings and shooting wedding portraits).  Yes, there are the shooters who only do 2-3 weddings a year.  But if you're going to get the kind of rep where people find out about you through word-of-mouth, where you name gets passed around by wedding planners and destinations, then it's a focus and niche for you.  So I think it's completely acceptable to view the first shoot as one where you don't expect compensation and if she throws $50 at you to cover your gas and cleaning expenses than that's an honorarium of sorts.

The second shoot is a whole different ballgame.  A critical part of being a good wedding photographer is your ability to manage expectations, address a wide range of details, and manage logistics.  If you're waiting for the first shooter to bring pay up for the second shoot, than you're taking the entirely wrong approach as a wedding photographer.  That's like waiting for the bride to bring up their expectations for what you're going to do or deliver.  "Politely" ain't got diddly to do with it.  You can address anything politely.  But a wedding photographer who doesn't seize the bull by the horns and address all of the expectations is not likely to be a successful wedding photographer.  That she would ask you what your post-production software is sounds just a little alarming to me--if it was MY client I'd be doing all of the post production myself, I wouldn't expect the second shooter to be touching any edits.

And frankly, as a second shooter, you're going to want to have a detailed discussion with her about your role anyway.  I've seen some weddings where the "second shooter" is really an assistant (hauling equipment, setting up soft boxes and lights, dragooning people on a list of portraits and lining 'em up) and their camera only really comes out during the ceremony and toasts (key times where you benefit from different perspectives).  This is not likely to work if you're just two different shooters showing up with no coordination at the same event.


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## jowensphoto (Feb 24, 2014)

I think you should be compensated in one way or another. Whether that's money or image use and lunch - don't work for free.

Also, it's odd to me that she asked what you use to process. The lead shooter usually edits all the photos to maintain a cohesive look throughout the set. If you're going to have to edit them for the lead (and not just what you use for your own portfolio), make sure you get compensated for that too.


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## pixmedic (Feb 24, 2014)

contract.
make _*sure*_ you have a contract between you and the main photographer detailing _*exactly*_ what their expectations of _*you *_are, and what your compensation will be. 
it should spell out any timelines for photos you are processing yourself, delivery process, and your rights to any photos you take. (what you are allowed to use those photos for)

the other photographer is likely not working for free. you shouldn't either.


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## Big Mike (Feb 24, 2014)

Talk about it before you do anything.  Figure out what you expect, what she expects and put it all into a contract.

You can still decide to do a 'trial run' or two, but it should be decided now, rather than tiptoeing around it and hoping to talk about it later.  

A big part of the discussion/contact should be usage and ownership rights of the images that you take.  Will she own them, and then be able to sell usage/print rights to the client?  Will you retain the right to use them for your own portfolio?  If you do keep some rights to them, will there be any limitations on when or how you publish them?

If you don't get this figured out, it could very easily go sideways on you.  For example, you shoot the wedding with her and within a day or a week, you put up your photos on Facebook because you're excited to show them off.....the client sees that you put photos up and asks the Photographer when they will get their photos....but maybe the photographer is shooting one or two weddings a week and will take several weeks or months to get the client their photos....now they have an unhappy client.    And what if you post some that the photographer decides not to use....now the client is curious as to what else was left out and the photographer is in a bad spot.

Typically, a second shooter should/has to wait a certain length of time before publishing the photos that they took....if they are even allowed to use/publish them at all.  

And another issue is the processing....if she wants you to give her finished/edited images, then that's fine, but she should have to pay for that time/service.  It may be a problem that your editing style will likely differ from hers.  So you should have a plan in place for this as well.

They way I do it, is that when I second shoot, I just turn over my cards at the end of the shoot, and get them back later.  For some clients, I just get cards from them beforehand, and just give them back after the wedding.  Half the time, I don't even get to see the photos....but I'm OK with that.  I'm not really shooting for my own portfolio and I don't have time to be processing any of them (probably the main reason why I tend to do more second shooting than shooting weddings on my own...I just don't have time).  
I just show up on the wedding day, turn over the cards and give the photographer an invoice for my services.


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## TWright33 (Feb 24, 2014)

Alright so my next question is what is a ballpark range to charge? I know that she charges around $2500 for a wedding package. 

Which obviously consists of more than just shooting on the wedding day. Keep in mind this is also middle Mississippi so the coat of living is lower.

Should I just expect a couple hundred dollars for day an 8 hour wedding day? 

I absolutely had no idea she would email me back and say she wanted me to shoot so I haven't gotten a grasp on the concept yet of what exactly to expect.

And there will be a contract, and a talk before the contract about whether she is expecting an assistant or a second shooter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DiskoJoe (Feb 26, 2014)

Personally, I have never done a second shoot for free. Typically I charge $40 per hour but have done some for flat fees of as little as $100 for really easy gigs. But in my situation I had done weddings on my pwn previous to contracting out my services. I would feel it out by ear. Do the first for free and see if you can stand the work load. Then if things go well with the photog then  ask for some compensation for future gigs.  If they like your work and you work well together then compensation should not be a problem. Shooting weddings as a team is much nicer than flying solo.

Edit: I just viewed your Flickr port. There's not much there at all. Honestly, I would not hire you after seeing only this. You should really post some more photos relavent to the types of jobs you are trying to get.


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## pixmedic (Feb 26, 2014)

TWright33 said:


> Alright so my next question is what is a ballpark range to charge? I know that she charges around $2500 for a wedding package.
> 
> Which obviously consists of more than just shooting on the wedding day. Keep in mind this is also middle Mississippi so the coat of living is lower.
> 
> ...



i dont know about Mississippi, but around the central Florida area,  (Florida is also a low cost of living state, no state tax) for a 6-8 hour wedding I get $300 and the rights to use pictures I take in my portfolio. (I only post my photos AFTER the main tells me they are finished business wise with their client) 
I typically don't do any editing, (except for photos i am keeping for my own portfolio) the main photog does. i simply shoot, sometimes hold lights or props, and pretty much whatever else the main photog needs me to do for the wedding to go smooth. 

sometimes I fetch flashes, lenses, water, or other cameras.  The main is paying me, so I do what they need me to do. Some second shooters (especially those that also do their own gigs) get all wrapped up in "im a photographer, not a gopher/assistant" kinda attitude. this is the fastest way to blacklist yourself as a second shooter with good photographers. I look at a second shooter gig as a responsibility to make the main photographer look as good as possible. 
I love second shooting. No desire to do it on my own. I like the relationship between a main and a second. it reminds me of work. 

Im a Paramedic, so I am used to working closely with a partner. 
Im a husband, so I am used to taking orders.


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## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

$40 an hour seems fine for somebody who does this all the time and has references, etc.  Probably pretty high for a person who is doing their first second shooter gig / might bomb as far as the primary knows. I would expect more like $20 an hour, so yeah $200 for 8 hour day plus transportation and working out the details seems about right.  Raise your rates next time if it goes well and you can point to this as evidence of your competence.

That is assuming no risk on you, no time spent editing, etc. Just "handing over the cards" as mentioned above.  If they want edited photos, that's still $20 an hour as well.


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## TWright33 (Feb 26, 2014)

DiskoJoe said:


> Edit: I just viewed your Flickr port. There's not much there at all. Honestly, I would not hire you after seeing only this. You should really post some more photos relavent to the types of jobs you are trying to get.



That's kind of a low blow.

Need job for experience.

Need experience for job.

By me being the second shooter here I would be getting photos relevant to the jobs I'm trying to get.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant exactly.


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## Gavjenks (Feb 26, 2014)

> That's kind of a low blow.
> 
> Need job for experience.
> 
> ...



Some people might hire you "on spec," others won't.  People are under no obligation to give you a fair shake or to take part in training the next generation of photographers. It's totally legitimate and reasonable to say "Sorry no portfolio, no hire, I don't care if that's a chicken and egg problem for you."

Those who do hire you on spec, you should very much expect to earn less than you normally would to cover their risk. And you also take on somewhat of a danger of locking yourself in to lower wages than you might prefer if you accept such a deal with a discount. Fair? No, not really. Still might happen, though, depending on your community and the photogs there.

One way out of the problem is to build a portfolio using family, friends, people from modelmayhem, etc. The community EXPECTS you to offer discounts to family, for example, so it doesn't pigeonhole you, and you still get photos to prove you are competent when trying to get second shooting gigs. Doesn't necessarily matter that much that they are portrait sessions not events. Probably will be good enough for second shooting hires early on. And if you have an awesome portrait session portfolio, you can demand closer to the hourly rates you hope to have in the long run, instead of introductory "risk" discounted rates.


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## dsiglin (Feb 26, 2014)

Mostly wedding photos consist of portraits and detail photos. Get two friends, preferably a couple with good chemistry, to dress up and pretend they are on an engagement or lifestyle shoot. Now you have relevant photos to show. Or go all out and do a faux wedding.


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## DiskoJoe (Feb 26, 2014)

TWright33 said:


> DiskoJoe said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: I just viewed your Flickr port. There's not much there at all. Honestly, I would not hire you after seeing only this. You should really post some more photos relavent to the types of jobs you are trying to get.
> ...



Sorry, not trying to burn you. You said you were looking to get work taking architechtural photography and wedding but you do not have any work on your port that is relevant to these areas. 

 Go take some pics of houses and buildings for the real estate stuff and maybe some portraits for the wedding gigs. 

You dont have to be getting paid to get experience taking photos that would relate to what you are trying to do.

Before I ever did any weddings I had done hundreds of portraits.


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