# Standards have dropped...



## weepete (Apr 2, 2021)

Sorry everyone, 

Back in the day when I joined this forum standards were pretty harsh. If you posted up a photo with a defect it'd be found, exposed and called out. That's how I improved. It may seem harsh, but it's been one of the best things I had to push me on.

Critique was standard, critisism was expected on most shots, but often it was combined with advice on how to make the shot better. It may have been too harsh at times, but it's important to push us on.

Over the years there's been a tendency to not provide critique, just comment "nice shot", no matter what we have. To make it clear, I don't blame the mods for this but we've moved to far the other way. 

I really like you all, but as a collective we need to grow a set and realise if you don't want  C&C then just post in  the JFF section


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## Space Face (Apr 3, 2021)

Totally agree. The problem is people get their feefees hurt too easily these days.  Too much, irrelevant, benign, meaningless and pointless words are said as you indicated.

I've been booted off of and out places online (both non and photography related) and real life (work and social related environments) for speaking my mind and standing my ground.  People just can't take the truth anymore if it doesn't fit their agenda or is against what their opinion is. 

Just a sign of the times, the internet and society I suppose.  It promotes laziness, banality and a false sense of popularity.  They all certainly abound.  I stopped taking it too seriously a long time ago and the gullibility of folk not to see what's in front of them at times is astounding.  I find it all so amusing.

I blame the 60's and the hippies

Nice post by ra way wee man..............


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## Jeff15 (Apr 3, 2021)

I agree with Pete.......


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## terri (Apr 3, 2021)

This is the same argument when some posters observe the long-recognized tendencies by other posters to drop in a "Nice shot!" comment over and over, without offering more.    Same issue that's been here at TPF from the beginning.       

It's expected that people will mess up, post or comment the wrong way or in the wrong forum, but by and large the awareness is there.   We also found that several new members felt bullied or attacked, and left the forum in confusion - and that's not conducive to learning any more than "Nice shot" comments are. 

Yes - the Just For Fun Gallery is for one's snaps, casual shots, or a place to post shots that the photographer might still like, but knows are lacking due to circumstances beyond their control.   So it's a perfect place to post those, where Nice shot or general comments on the subject matter alone are welcomed.

We have also recently re-opened the C&C Gallery for more in-depth critique, comments or technical advice, and have a sticky asking all contributors to give their reasons for taking the shot as well as their gear and technical settings.   

I'd like to see more people posting in there, but oftentimes the guidelines are overlooked even with a section moderator in there (zombiesniper).   

The regular Gallery section falls somewhere in between, so these Galleries do get the lion's share of casual comments, but I still see good discussion, too.

Instead of opening threads like these, help us help the forum by pointing out in threads that we do have these specific places to post work from members who are here more for the community rather than serious instruction on how to improve.   This kind of thread will not get seen by the very folks who are not paying attention, so direct comment within their own threads will have better effect.   

Serious beginner, seasoned pro, or those seeking community who only post cell phone shots - we aim to keep the doors open to all.


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## smoke665 (Apr 3, 2021)

Adding to @terri  comment above, for critique to be of value, doesn't mean it has to be harsh, but it does need to be correct. Off the wall comments and assuming that our personal opinions/ comments are the only correct ones doesn't help anyone. Good critique is also a two way street, the person asking for critique needs to be proactive with their post by giving some clues to the viewer as to what they're seeking help with. Posts with "comments & criticism appreciated" are rarely going to generate anything past calling out obvious technical issues. In addition to being a good place for valuable critique, the C&C Gallery offers some great suggestions for posters on how to ask for critique and how to offer critique.


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## pixmedic (Apr 3, 2021)

So, instead of "nice shot" just say " nice shot, but needs fill flash"


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## SquarePeg (Apr 3, 2021)

I came to this site as a beginner and benefited from c&c of my own photos and I also learned quite a bit from reading the critique being offered to others.  Some of it was really obnoxious and unnecessarily snarky.  It was very off putting for a beginner.  Fear of being shredded (FOBS?) by some of the harsher critics made me hesitate to post a few times in my early days here but in the end, I took the plunge and came to find it very helpful.  I still hear a few particularly stinging comments about backgrounds ringing in my head whenever I go to take a portrait.  

When I post on here I am hoping for critique or suggestions.  If I just wanted likes I’d stick to Facebook and Instagram.  

As to what smoke said above, I too find it helpful if the person specifies what they’re looking for critique on, and sometimes I will specify in my own post - but sometimes there is not anything specific that I want help on. Sometimes I’d just like somebody else to take a look and see if they see something that could be improved that I totally missed.


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## Nevermore1 (Apr 3, 2021)

I agree.  I don't post critique of anyone's photos because O feel like I'm still learning myself even though I've been into photography for at least 25 years.  I just feel there others here who are much more experienced with the technical side and they'd be able to give much better critique than I ever would be able to.  I wonder if that's possibly why there isn't more critique offered if a lot of newcomers feel that way (which is no fault of those who are on here and have more experience,  the newcomers wouldn't learn if it weren't for their helpful input and information)?

I do need to start posting a few of my photos in the C&C forum with the hopes of getting some critique to help me learn what I'm doing wrong and what I need to work on (I've decided to finally learn how to use an external flash, I've always just used natural light with all my photos).


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## jcdeboever (Apr 3, 2021)

I just want likes so I can build up my self esteem. I just want to be liked, it feels warm and fuzzy.


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## jonnie 5 spot (Apr 6, 2021)

weepete said:


> Sorry everyone,
> 
> Back in the day when I joined this forum standards were pretty harsh. If you posted up a photo with a defect it'd be found, exposed and called out. That's how I improved. It may seem harsh, but it's been one of the best things I had to push me on.
> 
> ...


C&C IS necessary - adversity begets strength and growth, and if people are going to put their creative efforts out there, they're going to have to learn how to handle whatever comes their way. People say all kinds of critical things that aren't always constructive. But creatives need some positive feedback too, especially beginners, so they don't get discouraged and just give it up.


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## jonnie 5 spot (Apr 6, 2021)

and sometimes a nice shot is just a nice shot. Freud said it, i heard him.


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## BrentC (Apr 6, 2021)

I would like to see more people use the Theme threads for the everyday casual posting.   For example birds, bridges, beaches, etc.   These type of threads  are great for the casual postings and for quick likes and the odd comment.  Specific postings should only be used if you want critique and feedback or if it is a collage of photos from some event or place.   This is largely how its done on another forum I am on and works great.   And threads don't tend to disappear as fast this way.  This would also clear up a lot of the wildlife (mostly bird) threads that keep increasing.
So if you want critique or feedback then post new thread otherwise post in existing theme thread.


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## Lonnie1212 (Apr 6, 2021)

What's the possibility that the world of photography is changing? Yesterday I noticed that the posts I was reading were from 2012 and 2013.  I was looking for information on an 85mm f/1.8 D lens. It's like people are losing interest in photography as we knew it.  Prices have dropped way down on Nikon lenses and cameras etc......


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## jeffashman (Apr 6, 2021)

Interesting thread. Speaking for myself only, I'm not qualified to really criticize someone else's work, because I would have no way to identify what needs to be done for that person to improve their work, and constructive criticism, with constructive being the key word, should always come with recommendations on how to fix or improve an issue. I greatly appreciate those who take the time to point out issues in my photos, especially when they make helpful recommendations. I agree that criticism does not need to be harsh, and in fact harsh can be counter-productive. A simple, "Would you mind of I make a recommendation regarding your photo?" is perfect. If the individual who owns the photo doesn't want to grow, then they'll say so, but I know very few people who don't want to learn and improve, especially in the realm of photography. Maybe there should be an additional item below the "Can others edit my Photos:" that says, "Can others make constructive comments on your work:" with options like, "no NOT OK," or "Yep, please do," or "H*ll Yeah!"


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## RVT1K (Apr 7, 2021)

I see lots of praise being given to mundane shots.


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## Jeff15 (Apr 7, 2021)

I see lots of praise being given to mundane shots

They may seem mundane to you but have you thought they may be from photographers with less experience than you.


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## Space Face (Apr 7, 2021)

RVT1K said:


> I see lots of praise being given to mundane shots.



Indeed.  Some from very experienced photographers too.  I've seen a few 'nice' shots lately from professed seasoned photographers (not just on here) that to be honest I wouldn't embarrass myself by posting online.  It's not as if they were posted for seeking crit and are usually greeted with favourable monosyllabic words of praise.

I've generally stopped trying to give advice or an honest opinion on such poor photography as in the main it's treated with anything from apathy to hostility.  I just ignore it mainly or perhaps say what I actually like about the shot (if anything).  I've added more than one to my Ignore list of late.

My assumption is that if you infer to someone that a less than decent take is a good take, then they come to believe that this standard of photograph is a 'nice shot,' and thus acceptable as such.  Welcome to the Instagram and Facebook age and photography is the loser.


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## smoke665 (Apr 7, 2021)

@Space Face On the social media sites you seldom get valid critique, and over the last few years it seems like at times TPF has drifted that way as well. In defense of the forum it's a fine line between bruised egos of those not accustomed to real criticism and honest appraisals. Then the scale tips the other way when you get away from technical issues into "personal opinion" comments  It's hard for some to accept that their "personal opinion" is no more valid than anyone else. Those are the threads that make me pull out the popcorn and cold drink. LOL

Unless a poster has asked for critique, the image is spectacular, or the poster shows improvement,  I seldom post comments.


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## RVT1K (Apr 7, 2021)

Jeff15 said:


> I see lots of praise being given to mundane shots
> 
> They may seem mundane to you but have you thought they may be from photographers with less experience than you.



Except my comment is about those praising and not the shot.


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## RVT1K (Apr 7, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> Unless a poster has asked for critique, the image is spectacular, or the poster shows improvement,  I seldom post comments.



That is essentially the same approach I take.


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## Dave Maciak (Apr 7, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> Adding to @terri  comment above, for critique to be of value, doesn't mean it has to be harsh, but it does need to be correct. Off the wall comments and assuming that our personal opinions/ comments are the only correct ones doesn't help anyone. Good critique is also a two way street, the person asking for critique needs to be proactive with their post by giving some clues to the viewer as to what they're seeking help with. Posts with "comments & criticism appreciated" are rarely going to generate anything past calling out obvious technical issues. In addition to being a good place for valuable critique, the C&C Gallery offers some great suggestions for posters on how to ask for critique and how to offer critique.


Agree totally!  Also, don't be just plain insulting.  It's easy to hide behind a keyboard.  I've learned from my own and others critiques--that's how it's done.


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## jcdeboever (Apr 8, 2021)

Most of my shots are mundane...keep the likes coming, my wife hates me...


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## FBPB (Apr 8, 2021)

jeffashman said:


> Interesting thread. Speaking for myself only, I'm not qualified to really criticize someone else's work,



It's not a question of criticizing, but critiquing, offering constructive feedback.

I too have noticed this tendency to "like" something on forums outside of the realm of photography. It may just be a sign of the times (and the influence of Social Media's "like" systems). 

Personally, I try to offer help when I can, but much like @jeffashman , I haven't the skill set yet to do so.


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## jeffashman (Apr 8, 2021)

FBPB said:


> jeffashman said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting thread. Speaking for myself only, I'm not qualified to really criticize someone else's work,
> ...


Agreed. Poor choice of words on my part, critique is what I meant. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## smoke665 (Apr 8, 2021)

FBPB said:


> It's not a question of criticizing, but critiquing,


 and @jeffashman 

Not to pick, but according to Merriam-Webster you might want to rethink your statements.

Crit·i·cize - verb

to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly 

to find fault with : point out the faults of
Cri·tique - noun

 an act of criticizing
Again not to pick or offend, but I bring this up to show how easy it is to stray from the facts when giving personal opinions. The same is true when we question the non-technical aspects of an image that relate to the photographers artistic intent. In those cases it's important to remember it is always a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.


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## FBPB (Apr 8, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> FBPB said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a question of criticizing, but critiquing,
> ...



You may want to read further in the definition:

_Critique_ is an alteration of an archaic word that referred generally to criticism. _Critique_ itself dates to the early 18th century and originally referred to a piece of writing that criticized a literary or artistic work. The words _criticism,_ _critique,_ and _review_ overlap in meaning. _Criticism_ usually means "the act of criticizing" or a "remark or comment that expresses disapproval," but it can also refer to the activity of making judgments about the qualities of books, movies, etc. (as in "literary criticism")._ Critique_ is a somewhat formal word that typically refers to a careful judgment in which someone gives an opinion about something. _Review_ can refer to an essay analyzing a literary or artistic work, but can also sometimes imply a more casual or personal opinion.

*Examples of critique in a Sentence*

Noun She wrote a radical _critique_ of the philosopher's early essays. 

They gave a fair and honest _critique_ of her art.


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## smoke665 (Apr 8, 2021)

FBPB said:


> You may want to read further in the definition:



Criticism and critique might overlap now but it wasn't always so. Critique as borrowed from the French, who borrowed from Latin, which was borrowed from the Greek, kritike, loosely translated means, the art of criticizing . Not so coincidentally that falls in line with another word "critic".

Up until the 1700's critique was considered a noun (word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence) and was the act of criticizing, but during that period it came into being used as a verb (words that show action or state of being), meaning to discuss critically. That useage grew, because apparently some with "delicate sensitivity " took criticize, which had always been a neutral verb, as having negative connotations.  Since then critique as a verb is accepted, but not universally so. Part of that lack of acceptance comes from the fact that there's a reluctance to use verbs derived from nouns, and partly because its French origin sounds pretentious.

So long story short in the context of its use by @jeffashman either could have been acceptable, you were both trying to express the same concept.


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## weepete (Apr 24, 2021)

Thanks for the reponses. I've actually noticed an increase in C&C since I posted this thread.

My original intention was not to bemoan the "nice shot" comments, but really to draw attention to the importance if C&C. 

It's not only important for the photographer recieving critique, but also for the photographer giving it. It's important to do, as it not only enables a photographer to evaluate someone else's shot, but can also be applied to your own shots and process.

I totally recognise that in the past the forum could be too harsh in the past, and one of the great strides that has been made is that nearly every thread has some kind of reply which is appreciated.


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## limr (Apr 24, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> That useage grew, because apparently some with "delicate sensitivity " took criticize, which had always been a neutral verb, as having negative connotations.  Since then critique as a verb is accepted, but not universally so. Part of that lack of acceptance comes from the fact that there's a reluctance to use verbs derived from nouns, and partly because its French origin sounds pretentious.



Sources?


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## weepete (Apr 24, 2021)

limr said:


> smoke665 said:
> 
> 
> > That useage grew, because apparently some with "delicate sensitivity " took criticize, which had always been a neutral verb, as having negative connotations.  Since then critique as a verb is accepted, but not universally so. Part of that lack of acceptance comes from the fact that there's a reluctance to use verbs derived from nouns, and partly because its French origin sounds pretentious.
> ...



oooft! Even I woudn't be arguing that one


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## limr (Apr 25, 2021)

weepete said:


> limr said:
> 
> 
> > smoke665 said:
> ...



Which part? There are several unfounded (and spurious) claims.


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## daveo228i (Apr 28, 2021)

Wow! From the opening post. A dictionary, criticism, to the state of society. Photography like other art forms, playwright, screenwriter, author, and all the other art form creators, invite critics. From the standpoint of the creator, criticism is unjust because the creator feels it to be a magnus opus. A percentage of creative people have a thin skin and any negative comments are taken very personally. Most creative people realize that criticism can be good . Of course the technical knowledge required to be a good critic is paramount. Unfortunately the internet, with its various public platforms, is tailor made for anyone to vent an opinion on any subject, and remain anonymous. It also provides people with the ability to display their artwork. I see people posting questions about the “zone system”. I would tell them to read Ansel Adams books, after all he devised the system. For landscapes, look to the past photographers who produced wonderful images in black and white or color. Street photography, fashion, portraits, all the reprinted by greats. Digital photography with it’s attendant post production software allows the mediocre, to enhance a poor image into a good photograph. Myself, I’m retired, a professional photographer who had the opportunity to work in several different fields of image making. Most of my work was published in school textbooks, all grades and children’s books. Another area was crime scene/forensic photography for a police department in a well known city. No creativity allowed. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DanOstergren (May 15, 2021)

Personally I think there is nothing wrong with giving praise to photos that others might think are mundane or beneath someone else's standards. I think both praise and critique are valuable and useful, and no one should be made to feel that they can't give praise to someone's work just because others have higher standards, and vice versa. I also think that if a group of individuals feel that standards have fallen here and that there should be more constructive criticism happening, then those individuals should elevate their own work to match or exceed their own standards and start giving more constructive criticism, rather than complaining about and shaming others whom they think have mundane work and lower standards than they do. 

Also I remember what this place was like a few years ago when the forum was much more active, and in my opinion people were harsh to the point of being mean, often. It was rarely a matter of people needing to "grow a set", it was that meanness, belittlement, and the act of cutting others down was accepted as "constructive criticism". I for one don't think it would be good for anyone if the forum were to revert back to that. Just my personal thoughts / constructive criticism on the topic.


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## dxqcanada (May 15, 2021)

Constructive - *: *promoting improvement or development                                                               

I like it because ... I don't like it because ...


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## bertsirkin (May 25, 2021)

I rarely post here, or on any other forums for that matter. Forums like this one have migrated to a "Facebook" mode. Admins and moderators tend to want people to "like" images, and many members of forums do just that. Facebook has created a environment where ANY image, no matter how good or bad, is "liked", and anyone with a camera can think that they're great photographer. Just the way CNN has adopted Fox News broadcasting methodologies (not necessarily their political stance), photo forums on the Internet have adopted Facebooks methodologies in order to generate more revenues. 

It's why I don't post, and rarely look at, posts of photo forums.

FWIW, there are a very few good places on the Internet, 1x being one of them.

bert


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## smoke665 (May 25, 2021)

bertsirkin said:


> It's why I don't post, and rarely look at, posts of photo forums.



TPF is a place where all opinions count, no one being anymore correct than another, but this one confuses me. Based on your comments, it appears you've created somewhat of a paradox. You don't post, you don't look at other's posts, but yet here you are posting why you don't post???????????


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## bertsirkin (May 25, 2021)

smoke665 said:


> TPF is a place where all opinions count, no one being anymore correct than another, but this one confuses me. Based on your comments, it appears you've created somewhat of a paradox. You don't post, you don't look at other's posts, but yet here you are posting why you don't post???????????


I get summary emails from TPF, and the title of this thread intrigued me. 

I don't post, because I strongly feel that critique is incredibly important in a photographer's development, and have always included both praise and critique in my forum posts. I have found that most forum members only want the praise, not the critique. Often their response is negative and condescending - something I try not to be. So, I found that not frequenting online forums is the best option for me. I find that being a member of one or more local camera clubs to be a much more rewarding experience.


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## smoke665 (May 25, 2021)

bertsirkin said:


> I get summary emails from TPF, and the title of this thread intrigued me.
> 
> I don't post, because I strongly feel that critique is incredibly important in a photographer's development, and have always included both praise and critique in my forum posts.


 
If you don't read the emails, nor post followups then why bother??? Not being difficult but in your post you say  "Often their response is negative and condescending - something I try not to be", yet your post comes off as both????  

I would agree with you there are many who are only in it for the "Likes", critique for them that involves anything negative falls on deaf ears. Then there are those who offer critique that is either vague, opinionated or uninformed. There is a responsibility on the part of the person seeking critique to give clues as to what they seek comment on. General or vague comments like C&C or comments welcome, will usually result in vague or off the wall comments unless there are obvious technical issues. There is also a responsibility on the part of the one giving critique to be careful of comments by offering correct advice in a helpful manner, while noting that opinions are just that. TPF started a new C&C Gallery a little while back that provides an excellent place for the critique. A sticky note at the top gives guidance to both sides on posts to facilitate useful information. If you haven't checked it out I'd highly recommend it.

Had a look at your website, you have some nice work, and likely have some valuable insight that could help others.


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## mrca (May 25, 2021)

I have won and judged professional competitions and got there though years of getting critique and one thing someone posting must realize, unless they specify, folks will provide constructive analysis of the shot.   Don't expect to always be able to ask about the problems with an image because you don't know what you dont know.  Remember, this is a subjective medium so take ANY instruction with a grain of salt but be prepared to honestly ask yourself if the suggestion makes sense.  If there is no title, sometimes it is difficult to devine what the maker was trying to accomplish.   In one competition I always included a rule violation that was critical to the message of the shot just to screw with the judges.  As for those critiquing, refrain from personal insults, demeaning comments.  Folks are there to learn and I don't think you would want someone to teach you that way.  Remember, it isn't just what you say,m but how you say it.  As a judge, I always like to analyze in terms of a "crap sandwich."  Start with something complimentary on the image, there has to be something.  Then gently suggest what you would do or would like to see.  Then conclude with a another good point of the image.  It helps temper the criticism.   Unless you are one of those who were gifted with a "good eye" requiring no improvement,  we all started at the beginning of this photo journey so remember how you felt then.   I am sooo thankful the first competitions I entered with critique of each image was anonymous.
Where are folks posting photos for critique here, I would be glad to help.  I roust my butt out of bed early some saturday morning to judge competitions because it is a way of giving back for the folks that took the time for me.  The thing that will improve your photography the most isn't a lens, a camera or some other gizmo, it's good criticism both on your images and the images of others.


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## Tinstafl (May 25, 2021)

I rarely post stuff here any longer.  Why is a combination but many of my shots are for publication and I have to wait till they are published before posting.  Also they have different requirements than your standard shot with people.  There is a need for empty space to put in copy or a need for a different crop.  For instance cutting the top of the head off a bit.  You get a lot of people yelling on that but in a publication it makes the eyes much bigger and the face bigger at the expense of a bit of hair.  look and you will see that in many shots.  That is not an excuse for not producing good shots that follow the rules at times but it depends on what you are shooting for and the end result you wish.  Landscapes rarely have reason to have odd crops but still need some negative space if for nothing more than to put the location of the shot inside the picture.  That us usually why sky was invented I would say. I shoot for a couple travel companies and some swim suit companies and the suit in this case is the subject not the girl.  The travel shots want you to see yourself there.  Just remember the reason you are shooting and the end result.  That said there was a site that I was part of that required you to critique three shots for each one you posted.  This helped me a lot and I got lots of good feedback.


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## zombiesniper (May 25, 2021)

I do both “nice image” and provide feedback on images.

The nice image comments are sometimes because the person has been here a while and I know from their post or history that they are improving and I like to give them a chance to find and correct the flaws themselves. The nice image is more of a way of saying that they are progressing and should continue. I know not very exciting but sometimes people just need encouragement. 
Other times the poster is too new and I’ve stopped giving feedback on new members unless asked for. Too many wasted posts trying to help just to be told I’m wrong.

My feedback can come in two flavours as well. 
First is as well though out post as my feeble mind can produce in order to aid in explaining a solution. The other is a blunt statement for those that insist in posting crap and tell me they’ve got it all figured out.

I tend to not waste my time with flavour number two anymore.

As for the definition of words. Use whatever definition you wish…….just don’t expect others to follow.


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## Dean_Gretsch (May 28, 2021)

zombiesniper said:


> The other is a blunt statement for those that insist in posting crap and tell me they’ve got it all figured out.



Ok, now every time I have posted a photo, and I get no comment from you, my sensitivity will whisper this quote to me😂


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## zombiesniper (May 28, 2021)

No worries there. You do great work......but maybe I need to look a little closer.


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## ntz (May 29, 2021)

DanOstergren said:


> Personally I think there is nothing wrong with giving praise to photos that others might think are mundane or beneath someone else's standards. I think both praise and critique are valuable and useful, and no one should be made to feel that they can't give praise to someone's work just because others have higher standards, and vice versa. I also think that if a group of individuals feel that standards have fallen here and that there should be more constructive criticism happening, then those individuals should elevate their own work to match or exceed their own standards and start giving more constructive criticism, rather than complaining about and shaming others whom they think have mundane work and lower standards than they do.
> 
> Also I remember what this place was like a few years ago when the forum was much more active, and in my opinion people were harsh to the point of being mean, often. It was rarely a matter of people needing to "grow a set", it was that meanness, belittlement, and the act of cutting others down was accepted as "constructive criticism". I for one don't think it would be good for anyone if the forum were to revert back to that. Just my personal thoughts / constructive criticism on the topic.


it's everybody's responsibility ... in both ways .. if you ignore on giving a fair feedback however it would be negative, you're not helping to the other side who is presenting a his/her own work just exactly because they are expecting some kind of feedback ..

if you are not prepared for fair feedback which you might not like, don't post here, as simple as that ..

if somebody is douchebag who can't write a constructive post without insulting the other side, then the problem is on his/her side and others shall stand up for the presenter no matter on how the photo of presenter looks like ..


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## flyingPhoto (May 30, 2021)

RVT1K said:


> I see lots of praise being given to mundane shots.


what exactly constitutes a mundane shot?

IS it merely a photograph of something you find dull and boring? Or is there a scientific approach being used?

dictionary says lacking interest or dull, or mundane, non religious in nature...


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## flyingPhoto (May 30, 2021)

in general, far to many people DEMAND that any and all photo image be at the very least imported into photo shop and given 5 minutes under the AI self decided manipulation to make a "nice photo" of it. 

There are some camera users that will jump up and down with joy upon finding a single usuable image out of a photo shooting session of 500 images on burst mode as making them extremely great photographers in the level of say Avedon or Ansel Adams.

But so many rules do not work with every single subject, pose, environment, and situation. Not even with every single persons personal feelings and preferences.


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## Grandpa Ron (Jun 20, 2021)

People post pictures because they wish to share what they think is a good photo. If another person find fault with it, that means nothing.

The significance of any particular fault is a matter of opinion. Obviously, the person posting the picture did not consider the so called defect to be of any significance.

In my opinion so called defects in technique are way, way, way behind content. I find many turn of the last century photo's, far more interesting than many of today's technically perfect photographic content.  But, that is just my opinion.   

I think the work of Ansel Adams is second to none and reading his book trilogy show the amount of effort he puts into every print. However, that does not mean I enjoy every single photograph he has ever published. 

In a photographic contest, the situation is a bit different. It is accepted that content is only part of the overs picture "quality" of the submission. Posting to the forum is not the same mind set.


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## Mike Drone (Jun 20, 2021)

Grandpa Ron said:


> People post pictures because they wish to share what they think is a good photo. If another person find fault with it, that means nothing.
> 
> The significance of any particular fault is a matter of opinion. Obviously, the person posting the picture did not consider the so called defect to be of any significance.
> 
> ...


I am also reading the Ansel Adams trilogy.  I was so excited about getting the books that I bought the trilogy in both hardback and paperback.  I considered myself a striving photography enthusiast. I strive each day to learn more and get better, although, I have learned that better is a moving target.  On one of the infinite sides of photography, it is an art in the eye of the beholder, and on the other, a photographer can get as technical as they like.  Sometimes a photo is just for sharing, looking for c&c, or an attempt at professional level contest presentations.  I agree with all the comments made thus far, c&c does help each of us grow and learn but there should be a clear intention of the poster of whether of not they are sharing or asking for the wisdom of the  photo forum community.  The first link under photo galleries is the c&c gallery, the design and setup of the photo forum is pretty awesome for a user to submit any work or show their intentions.  The photo forum has an awesome community and a wealth of knowledge.  Thanks to everyone that makes it happen, including behind the scenes, the members, and the visitors.


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## Grandpa Ron (Jun 21, 2021)

I bought the Ansel Adams series and found it to be very useful in understanding the how and why things happen in the world of film photography.

My biggest take-away from the series was that Ansel's approach was like a paint and canvas artist. His intent was not to print what the camera saw but rather to use his years of acquired knowledge of cameras, film, filters, chemicals, darkroom methods etc. to print what he saw in his mind's eye.  

Through his book trilogy he shares his knowledge and techniques with the film world at large, thus saving the beginner a lot of time and effort. 

Digital photography is much the same thing but instead of reading a series of books; software gurus have studied the camera's digital image information and created many ways to manipulated it and presented it in real time on a video monitor, so the user is spared the time and effort of "shoot and develop."

Oddly enough, I find more pleasure in the incessant hands-on diddling of film. But that is just my nature.


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