# At this photography thing for 8 months....



## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

I picked up my first dslr 8 months ago and have been shooting people since December. Why did I just now realize advertising on craigslist is gonna get me NOWHERE?! Ugh that's probably why I'm not getting as many clients as I would like to. Where do you all advertise?


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

flame retardant suits on. I really dont mean to be a bad guy but there are alot of things you still have to learn. If you are charging have you ever wondered maybe its your work that gets you less people. Another thing dont ever post your photos that your are charging for on facebook. Regular people dont care much about quality and will just download it off of there instead. Instead take the files on a jump drive or laptop and show them in person.
Craigslist is a bad way to advertise because there are many others on there as well. Try to isolate your ads for example print cards and leave them at your other job if you have one. Or ask a local store if you could leave flyers and cards there.  Or if you have the cash go and get some spots on magazines like local tv listings. Anything you see with an ad on it you can also put yours on it.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

What do you mean it's my work? I know I still have a lot to learn and WANT to learn but I don't think I'm bad at all. But thats just me. So what do you think I need to work on? Also if photographers shouldn't post pics from their sessions they might as well not have a facebook fan page..lol.  I think facebook is a good marketing tool... And it's free . I get why you are saying though, maybe I can watermark my pictures better. Thanks for the ideas on advertising.


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## subscuck (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> but there are alot of things you still have to learn.



This makes me think of kettles and pots...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Makes me think of Trolls.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> What do you mean it's my work? I know I still have a lot to learn and WANT to learn but I don't think I'm bad at all. But thats just me. So what do you think I need to work on? Also if photographers shouldn't post pics from their sessions they might as well not have a facebook fan page..lol.  I think facebook is a good marketing tool... And it's free . I get why you are saying though, maybe I can watermark my pictures better. Thanks for the ideas on advertising.


 You need some work on some of your composition and posing. For example the teaparty shot would have been much better if taken from a different angle other than just straight on from the side. Let yourself go and try to take other angles, you seem to be taking the safe side. As for your shots that were taken in a studio setting, the lighting seems a little flat. Try to manipulate the light so that your subject is more seperated from your background.
As for the shots that show before and after, your after shots actually kind of made the picture worse imho. Like the bathtub one the baby's skin tone in beautiful and you brightened it giving it less detail and a more dull washed out look. Im gonna tell say this now. You are going to get alot of people mad at you. Many here will hate the fact that after only 8 months you decided to charge while these guys have been doing it for years. I honestly dont think you are ready but I myself am not that great. So i will put my feelings aside and just warn you of the upcoming flames and arguments.
Now dont be offended this is just my opinion.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Uh not really the right analogy. The pot does not realize how black he is compared to the kettle. I on the other hand know that I have alot to learn. It however does not stop me from having my own opinions and my own critical eye. I may not be the best but I know enough to help a little bit.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

If SabrinaO read the forum regularly, she would know who to disregard.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> If SabrinaO read the forum regularly, she would know who to disregard.


 Go put on your codpiece leonidas. Do you care to offer your critical eye or will you just continue with your smart allecky comments.


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## iolair (Jun 12, 2011)

The photos on your website aren't bad, but it actually quite scares me that while you've only been shooting people since December, you're already charging $125 to people for portrait sessions.  I always believed it took two to three years to learn a new trade half-decently.


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## o hey tyler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > If SabrinaO read the forum regularly, she would know who to disregard.
> ...



She didn't post any photos for C&C. Which you gave her anyway. 

If BJ is Leonidas, you must be....


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## Dao (Jun 12, 2011)

Taking photos and running business are not the same and quality of the photos may not directly related to successful business. 
You can take beautiful photos and have no business or so-so photos with tons of business.

Maybe it is time to start learning about business.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Dao, can you recommend a good business forum?


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Lol not quite more like that fat dude with blade arms. Advertising is something I'm a little more in tune with. I help with my friends local landscaping company with his advertising. as well as my wife for her daycare.


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## mrpink (Jun 12, 2011)

subscuck said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > but there are alot of things you still have to learn.
> ...



I was thinking more along the lines of glass houses and rocks.

OP.  Your work looks just fine for the prices you are charging, hopefully someone can point you in a much better direction for advertising (other than CL).  I have zero experience with this aspect.

Around my area, there are a lot of "mothers clubs".  They are basically comprised of stay at home mothers (my wife is one), they organize play dates, outings, and what not.  Maybe finding something like that in your area and offering a discount of some sort to it's members.  Eh, it's all I can come up with right now.







p!nK


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

if children are your target try leaving a card or poster at local daycares. Its not about quality like dao says its about finding a way to stick out. Find places that don't have the competition already littering the roads with ads.


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## o hey tyler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> if children are your target try leaving a card or poster at local daycares. Its not about quality like dao says its about finding a way to stick out. Find places that don't have the competition already littering the roads with ads.



You know this because your photography business is booming right now, right?


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

I don't have a photo business. But my wifes daycare and friends landscaping is. My wife brought in 4 grand last month after taxes looking after 6 children while my friend brought in 10k. You and bitter can be jerks all you like but numbers don't lie. Yeah and I'm the troll. I'm one of the few people actually trying to help while you insists on being a smarta$$ and not contributing anything. This isn't highschool grow up


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Cute numbers.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Cute numbers.


 You guys are going on my ignore list since day one you've both been a sarcastic pain. Not responding to this stupidity anymore. I mean for godsake you're 43 and you act like a teenager trying to be funny in a classroom. aren't old men supposed to be wise and offer guidance


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

There is wisdom in sarcasm, and earlier in the thread I offered guidance.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> There is wisdom in sarcasm, and earlier in the thread I offered guidance.


 there is also ignorance and stupidity as well.


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Also if photographers shouldn't post pics from their sessions they might as well not have a facebook fan page..lol. I think facebook is a good marketing tool... And it's free . I get why you are saying though, maybe I can watermark my pictures better.



I have a friend who I use as a model, we occasionally go out to shoot for my practice and updated photos for her. I go home and work hours on retouching the photo's and loading high resolutions on a cd. While doing this I upload to Photobucket low rez images to give her an idea of what they looked like in the mean time. I have dropped off her cd only for her to tell me "that's ok, I already printed them off your website".
Just the other day she was telling me how frustrating my new flicker site was because she couldn't download some new images I had put on there, "but that's ok because we just screenshot them then cropped". :er:
If they are saving/printing off your website they have no use for the cd/prints.


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

i work at an after school program for an elementary school and im sure if you dropped off like a 10% discount flyers or something that would help, and see if you could put an ad in the school bulletin. word of mouth in this crowd goes a long way. get one or two of them, they put their pictures on facebook and the other parents see and want the same for their kids.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

vtf said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Also if photographers shouldn't post pics from their sessions they might as well not have a facebook fan page..lol. I think facebook is a good marketing tool... And it's free . I get why you are saying though, maybe I can watermark my pictures better.
> ...


 thank you and it makes your work look bad when they show it off to their friends. Had my friend try to print off one of my pics in walmart from a cd.  It made a golden sunlight reflection look like glitter was on his face.


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## mrpink (Jun 12, 2011)

iNick said:


> i work at an after school program for an elementary school and im sure if you dropped off like a 10% discount flyers or something that would help, and see if you could put an ad in the school bulletin. word of mouth in this crowd goes a long way. get one or two of them, they put their pictures on facebook and the other parents see and want the same for their kids.



Most schools will not allow you to distribute anything to their students or parents without jumping through a lot of hoops.  It is a good idea, just be forewarned it will not be a simple process.





p!nK


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## mrpink (Jun 12, 2011)

Now that I think of it, I do remember a few weeks ago I took my daughter to the doctors and in the waiting room a local photographer had printed and framed a bunch of his work with his company contact info.  The doctors office got free wall decor and he got free (except for the cost of print and framework) advertising.

Might be something to look into and try out.





p!nK


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

mrpink said:


> iNick said:
> 
> 
> > i work at an after school program for an elementary school and im sure if you dropped off like a 10% discount flyers or something that would help, and see if you could put an ad in the school bulletin. word of mouth in this crowd goes a long way. get one or two of them, they put their pictures on facebook and the other parents see and want the same for their kids.
> ...


 hey kids wanna come to my house and take some pics.


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

You're right, but rather than actually handing out the flyers and whatnot to the kids i was suggesting more of leaving a stack at the door where the parents come through to pick their kids up or tacking them to a bulletin board. Idk, i know it's hard when it comes to schools but i know that the elementary school crowd loves those kinds of things


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

Maybe we are looking at this wrong. Maybe we should charge extra dollars each session for the ease and convenience of printing off Facebook, forget the cd's and prints. Offer it as an option for additional $150 or so.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> there is also ignorance and stupidity as well.



QFT!
UTFSK!

So much for the ignore list, eh?


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

iNick said:


> You're right, but rather than actually handing out the flyers and whatnot to the kids i was suggesting more of leaving a stack at the door where the parents come through to pick their kids up or tacking them to a bulletin board. Idk, i know it's hard when it comes to schools but i know that the elementary school crowd loves those kinds of things



Local photographers advertise in year books, sponsor school sports and are listed in the programs. Contact the local school system for being a sponsor and what their advertising possiblities might be.


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

vtf said:


> iNick said:
> 
> 
> > You're right, but rather than actually handing out the flyers and whatnot to the kids i was suggesting more of leaving a stack at the door where the parents come through to pick their kids up or tacking them to a bulletin board. Idk, i know it's hard when it comes to schools but i know that the elementary school crowd loves those kinds of things
> ...



Break into the school crowd any way possible. Word of mouth will be a nice wave to ride imo.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

iNick said:


> vtf said:
> 
> 
> > iNick said:
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 fixed


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

Contact local Brownie/Cub scout troops and offer to sponsor projects for handing out flyers to parents in their paperwork. Or offer photography at their camp outs or social events for discounted prices for parents, etc. etc..


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## Dao (Jun 12, 2011)

Or get arrested so that you have free exposure on national TV.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Umm... If you photograph kids you should know its almost impossible to "pose" kids...well small children/toddlers. I just let them do their thing. About the tea party... "safe side"?? You look at one picture and say I need to take some from different angles... if you saw the WHOLE set you wouldn't be saying that.  About the studio lighting... i'm still trying to get the best recipe for some kick ass lighting. Any suggestions??? I have 2 AB's, a speedlight and a reflector. What do you think is the best lighting setup????
My before and afters are just fine thank you.  They are edited to my taste. If you noticed... some of the "before" pics were slightly underexposed and the wb was off. But by looking at your work... underexposure seems to be your thing. 
And are you serious about people getting "mad" at me? You are joking right? Please tell me you are? 
Because if not...the only person i see butt-hurt about my charging is you. Who else is mad??? Hey if you don't feel comfortable charging after you been at this for years that is not my fault. I'm not gonna hide the fact that im charging after 8 months because "people will get mad." :er: I've worked hard these 8 months... and i'm gonna continue to work hard. I've come a long way... _I_ think. Maybe if you did less whining and "hating" on other photographers that have that go getter in them and did more of getting out there and shooting you wouldn't be "mad". 
Listen I know i'm not a kickass photographer, but i'm working towards it every day. I'm always posting C&C's and i'm always open to suggestions/tips. What im NOT ok with is people getting upset and taking it personally that i'm new to photography and trying to run a successful business....


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > *I honestly dont think you are ready..... *
> ...


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Haha... I don't think $125 is enough 
There is no set time, or rule of when to start charging for your photography services...


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Sabrina, on a serious note, have you thought about contacting a advertising/marketing agent? Sometimes it is good to have other pros do what they are good at. But start talking to some. Consults are typically free. There is a point where you need to stop trying to do everything yourself. Been there. Done that. You will find the pros will get you better results, instead of you learning photography, learning web design, learning marketing, learning accounting, etc.

No, $125 isn't enough, but you are fast pricing yourself out of the Craigslist barrel.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Agree! Do you have a business? I find this business aspect is harder than photography itself


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Who says I'm upset. You asked a question and I answered youre the one mad here. I was irritated by the 2 guys for their sarcasm. As for the overexposure hit I forgot to set my exposure comp back to normal. At least I'm not charging 150 for mediocre work. I was only talking about the seated table shots. I saw the rest of your pics and there is no way I would pay for them. "im new to photography and trying to run a successful business". That says it all. So what you come here to get you ego stroked. Too bad hun. You aren't ready just look at your attitude now. Is this professionalism, you sound like a child.
Not all of us can leech of people with poor judgement some of us have to work to live. my shoots are at least free. Believe me there are people here with twice the talent and they don't charge.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Sabrina, on a serious note, have you thought about contacting a advertising/marketing agent? Sometimes it is good to have other pros do what they are good at. But start talking to some. Consults are typically free. There is a point where you need to stop trying to do everything yourself. Been there. Done that. You will find the pros will get you better results, instead of you learning photography, learning web design, learning marketing, learning accounting, etc.



This is the best advice you have given me! It's just so exhausting doing it all myself. There are ideas constantly running through my head. Most of the times I don't know where to begin. I've done everything ass backwards starting a biz without actually knowing anything about business! I guess its true when people say you have to spend money to make money. Thanks for the suggestions Bitter  Im definitely gonna look into all of that.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Yes, Sabrina, I have a custom jewelery business. It will be two years this september. I just expanded, and more than doubled my workshop and showroom, and am finally to the point of looking to hire another jeweler. The business side can be over whelming, and that was the decision to start hiring others to do what they do best. I am like you seem to be. I can do it all myself.  BUT, I know I can't do it better than the people trained to do some of this stuff, nor do I have the time.


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## thebutler4 (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> If SabrinaO read the forum regularly, she would know who to disregard.



hope I am not on this list ..


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

But how do the prints come out?? They can't be good can they?? What size are you posting? WOW... smh


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## dallasimagery (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> What do you mean it's my work? .



Well, he means, your work is BAD.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Sabrina, on a serious note, have you thought about contacting a advertising/marketing agent? Sometimes it is good to have other pros do what they are good at. But start talking to some. Consults are typically free. There is a point where you need to stop trying to do everything yourself. Been there. Done that. You will find the pros will get you better results, instead of you learning photography, learning web design, learning marketing, learning accounting, etc.
> ...



You should spend your time cultivating your photographic ideas, not figuring everything else out.
Yes, it takes money to make money. But the neat little thing about that, is hiring pros, will yield you a much more professional result, making you look much more appealing to a consumer. I started my business and only knew what I have seen through the years working for others.

I am in a high traffic office building downtown, and I still have my matboard stencil cut sign double sided tape stuck to the wall. 
Hard to take that seriously, right? Next month I will be getting proper signage. One thing at a time.


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## dallasimagery (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> I picked up my first dslr 8 months ago



No offense, but you didn't have to tell us that, we could tell it 



SabrinaO said:


> Why did I just now realize  advertising on craigslist is gonna get me NOWHERE?!



There is a sea of people fighting on craigslist and almost no one looking there for photographers.  I'd recommend you get a good solid foundation in your abilities before even thinking of trying to charge someone. Even if you find someone ignorant enough to pay you, later one they'll be pissed they paid you when they realized what they could have gotten with someone else.



SabrinaO said:


> Where do you all  advertise?



You're asking us to tell you where we advertise? Lol! Most pros won't even share business knowledge like that with their best friends.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean it's my work? .
> ...


 Thank you! You asked I answered in the best details and I get you freaking out stomping your feet in a tantrum. You asked for insults here they come. Your tantrum just showed your lack of professionalism and arrogance now people will go out of their way just to anger u


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> dallasimagery said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...


Are you marking this as a victory?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Who says I'm upset. You asked a question and I answered youre the one mad here. I was irritated by the 2 guys for their sarcasm. As for the overexposure hit I forgot to set my exposure comp back to normal. At least I'm not charging 150 for mediocre work. I was only talking about the seated table shots. I saw the rest of your pics and there is no way I would pay for them. "im new to photography and trying to run a successful business". That says it all. So what you come here to get you ego stroked. Too bad hun. You aren't ready just look at your attitude now. Is this professionalism, you sound like a child.
> Not all of us can leech of people with poor judgement some of us have to work to live. my shoots are at least free. Believe me there are people here with twice the talent and they don't charge.



Sorry, but I wouldn't want you to take my pics even for free. :thumbdown: My clients that paid for my services are happy with them. In fact, most of my clients are referrals from my other clients.
Anyways, I'm not upset at all... I'm just laughing at you, and just shocked at your attitude. It seems like there are some issues you have to work out because it show shows in your responses. Get yourself together. I don't come here to get my ego stroked.... lmao. I come here to learn. I know I wasn't ready to start a biz, but I was and am definitely ready to charge for my services at least... and so says 800+ of my "fans".


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> But how do the prints come out?? They can't be good can they?? What size are you posting? WOW... smh



I'm assuming you're asking me. She's satisfied with them. They will lose alot of their details in the printing. 
They're resized 800 pixels on long side and jpeged at 60% for about 60-150 kb. But she'll blow them up to a 4x6 or 5x7. Then she'll change them to b&w or serpia.
I just roll my eyes and move on.


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## expo (Jun 12, 2011)

Sabrina, i like some of your photos but the sections of your website are slow to load over my 'broadband' (what a joke that is!) connection.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Lol that is where business and photography differs. If your customers were us you think you would get paid no. a business is about maximum profits with minimum work and you show it. Its easy to be liked when standards are low.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > I picked up my first dslr 8 months ago
> ...



Dallas... sorry you got your feelings hurt when I responded to your response in Hatch's thread. But no need to dredge up all of my old posts and start flaming in them, and in this one! LOLOL. 
I must have struck a nerve, but I was just being honest. I think others would agree with me too.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

So his opinions are based on anger not because they really are bad. Denial


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

OMG  I have to try and experiment that and see how they come out. Maybe you should re-size the web images to 600px? Where do you put your watermarks? (if you have them)


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks for letting me know. I wonder if anyone else has that problem?


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> So his opinions are based on anger not because they really are bad. Denial


Selfrighteousness looks good on you.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> So his opinions are based on anger not because they really are bad. Denial



Not necessarily... but when someone brings up 4 of my threads, (some from months ago) and starts flaming in them when I was getting good reviews and helpful C&C's YES... I take his opinion is based on his anger because I said in another thread his picture was bad compared to another's he tried to flame.


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## expo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I wonder if anyone else has that problem?



I would assume so as it's Flash driven. Each section needs to load 100% before it's displayed.


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> OMG  I have to try and experiment that and see how they come out. Maybe you should re-size the web images to 600px? Where do you put your watermarks? (if you have them)



I don't watermark, I simply got off Photobucket and went to Flicker where you can eliminate right click save. I will no longer post on sights that allow right click save. Now they can still screen save then crop. I only post shots on facebook that I enjoy sharing and don't care if people copy.
I really would be pissed if I was charging though, because that's stealing.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > So his opinions are based on anger not because they really are bad. Denial
> ...


 But they aren't bad I actually like some of them. They may have been not as good but they are definitely not bad. Here is the thing I had no preconceived notions about you I even put my feelings aside about you charging and gave my honest opinion and you got defensive. You know how many people here complain about 6 month pros. Search it, I was just warning you of what may happen. Them you went nuts because I didn't like your work. I'm not the only one. People here said they were just ok.


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > So his opinions are based on anger not because they really are bad. Denial
> ...



Cmon guys, take it outdoors.
My money is on Leonidas.


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## dallasimagery (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> dallasimagery said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
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ROFL! I literally LAUGHED when I read your post... it was truly hilarious, because it was so ignorant and full of incorrectness. It struck my curiousity to look at some of your "work" and I laughed even harder... thanks for making my day!


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## Dao (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> and that was the decision to *start hiring others to do what they do best*. I am like you seem to be. I can do it all myself.  BUT, I know I can't do it better than the people trained to do some of this stuff, nor do I have the time.



Now that is business.  Thumbs up for that!
What I believe doing everything yourself is not really a business.  It is self-employed.  By the time you hire others, this is real business.  We only have 24 hours to make money, when you hired another person, now suddenly you have 48 hours to make money because someone else contribute his/her hours to make money for you.


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## dallasimagery (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
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+1

Sabrian attacks other people's work, not even knowing what "good work" actually is.  She makes statements based on incorrectness, and her own work is literally atrocious.  I've actually never seen this before; usually people who put other people's work down, at least have decent work themselves. Hmmph. Go figure. There's one born every minute! lol


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
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they say I'm in the glass house.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

I'm just gonna take Bitter Jewelers advice on to know who's advice to disregard on here. I've seen your work, and i'm not impressed at all. So everyone thats been saying "pot meet kettle" they are right. Climb off your high horse please. I know I have tons to learn still, but at least people are happy and willing to pay for my services. I HIGHLY doubt anyone on here would want to pay for your services...so no WIN for you. 
Again, im learning and trying to grow every day. My passion in this field is driving me and I think I put out some great work considering i'm less than a year into this. Right now I'm trying to turn "great" into AWESOME. :thumbup:


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Lol pot or kettle we are both still black. Just because I suck doesn't make you any better. At least I'm not in denial about it. Right now you are turning alright to good. You seriously need to be knocked down a peg. Also no one has complemented your pics on this thread they have just been giving you business advice. Open your eyes. Go ahead ask bitter if he thinks your pics are awesome.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



I could care LESS if someone even 1 month into this biz wants to charge! Why? Because i'm confident and secure with MYSELF and my abilities. You on the other hand seem to be butt-hurt that im charging and are taking it way too personally. If you been at this for years and are still doing free shoots and never charging then you aren't doing something/anything right. And I think you know that thats why you seem to have such a strong opinion on my situation....


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Bitter Jeweler said:
> ...



Oh duh! you're a jeweler! Where can I see your work? What type of jewerly do you make?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

yes its flash. I wish i had an html option...


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

anyone can charge doesn't make you good. You're the prime example. What's worse is you can dish out but you cant take.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > I picked up my first dslr 8 months ago
> ...



You are funny! I've read your posts... you spend your time here comparing your photos to everyone else's like yours are some sort of standard or something. WOW... the delusions of some!


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

I think a watermark would solve the problem? Or at least make it harder or deter people from printing?


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

^^^





SabrinaO said:


> dallasimagery said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...


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## Overread (Jun 12, 2011)

vtf said:


> Maybe we are looking at this wrong. Maybe we should charge extra dollars each session for the ease and convenience of printing off Facebook, forget the cd's and prints. Offer it as an option for additional $150 or so.



Both methods are valid approaches for photography businesses - the key is working out your overall approach to where you make your profit margin from. 

If you are making it from selling prints to your customers then you've got to ensure that you are getting the print sales. That means both preventing your customers from easily getting cheap prints (even if rubbish in quality - when something is free quality isn't worried about) and also perfecting your sales technique to ensure that you can pitch and sell the prints to your clients. Many try this through online portfolios and setups like Smugmug - however that approach is cutting out the salesman. It gives you no chance to put your sales technique to work and to encourage your clients to buy - instead they'll buy fewer shots overall and will more look at price than anything else (and also at how easily they can print screen your site ).
The bonus with this approach is you can charge less upfront for your sitting fees, provided you can then pitch the sale (and select your marketing so that you tap into the right client market - don't go too cheap or you just get freeloaders) so that you make up more income from the photo sales. 


 The other way to work is to charge considerable more for the sitting fee, but to then have a more lax printing aspect - either cheaper prints through an online gallery or even the CD with all the photos on. This might appear more attractive to clients - but on the flipside you've got to make sure that you pitch your price point correctly. Also don't fall into the trap of "giving them everything" or "giving them everything good" on the CD. You have to work within limits (because each photo is not just a snap from the sitting, but also represents your time in editing and processing) so if they order a 10photo CD package they get 10 photos. If you get more than 10 good ones you can always let them choose (pitching sale environment again) which ones they want with an additional processing fee if they want additional photos.


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## expo (Jun 12, 2011)

I can quickly see this is a really crappy 'forum'. I've lost count of the 'high posting' trolls already!??!
Good luck Sabrina. I'm outa here - what a shi&&y vibe this place has.


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## Gaerek (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:
			
		

> ROFL! I literally LAUGHED when I read your post... it was truly hilarious, because it was so ignorant and full of incorrectness. It struck my curiousity to look at some of your "work" and I laughed even harder... thanks for making my day!



You mean how I laughed when you said reflectors are for, and I quote, "rank amateurs"?

I don't think you're in a position to criticize anyone.

On a related note, did anyone else find it interesting that kbarredo or whatever his name is and dallasimagery agree in this thread. I guess misery really does love company.

LOL


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## Overread (Jun 12, 2011)

expo said:


> I can quickly see this is a really crappy 'forum'. I've lost count of the 'high posting' trolls already!??!
> Good luck Sabrina. I'm outa here - what a shi&&y vibe this place has.



Naw its all good provided you stay away from weddings  
Come to macro - we are nice in macro!


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Lol pot or kettle we are both still black. Just because I suck doesn't make you any better. At least I'm not in denial about it. Right now you are turning alright to good. You seriously need to be knocked down a peg. Also no one has complemented your pics on this thread they have just been giving you business advice. Open your eyes. Go ahead ask bitter if he thinks your pics are awesome.


Her work is worlds better than yours. Awesome? Not yet. Will she get there? Probably. Would you like to know what I think of you?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Lol pot or kettle we are both still black. Just because I suck doesn't make you any better. At least I'm not in denial about it. Right now you are turning alright to good. You seriously need to be knocked down a peg. Also no one has complemented your pics on this thread they have just been giving you business advice. Open your eyes. Go ahead ask bitter if he thinks your pics are awesome.



NEWSFLASH! I didn't ask for a C&C in this thread now did I? Of course they are giving me biz advice because (surprise!) that is WHAT I ASKED FOR. No one else seems to get their feelings hurt (except for Dallas... which I know why) that i'm new to this and charging. What is it to you? 
Anyways I get positive reviews on my C&C's alll the time.


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## Gaerek (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:
			
		

> anyone can charge doesn't make you good. You're the prime example. What's worse is you can dish out but you cant take.



But you CAN take it? Is that why you have Bitter on ignore?

BJ is one of the most helpful people here. IF and only if, you're willing to listen to it. The fact that you want to ignore him tells me a lot about you.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

dallasimagery said:


> +1. I'd add that the white balance is off, the composition is poor, and the poses look like copies of other posts on this forum - cliche, static, amateurish and uninventive.



So are your posts. 
First new low for a troll. I guess I haven't seen everything. Go ahead and pull up all my past threads, I need the views.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Lol pot or kettle we are both still black. Just because I suck doesn't make you any better. At least I'm not in denial about it. Right now you are turning alright to good. You seriously need to be knocked down a peg. Also no one has complemented your pics on this thread they have just been giving you business advice. Open your eyes. Go ahead ask bitter if he thinks your pics are awesome.
> ...


 You also get negative ones also. Most of them odd poses like I mentioned


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

expo said:


> I can quickly see this is a really crappy 'forum'. I've lost count of the 'high posting' trolls already!??!
> Good luck Sabrina. I'm outa here - what a shi&&y vibe this place has.



You gotta have a thick skin. I tell you what my skin did get thicker being part of this forum!  In a way this forum sucks because some can be too critical or too technical, but on the other hand it is helpful in improving your photography.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.



So much for your maturity cred.
I thought I was on your ignore list?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Gaerek said:


> dallasimagery said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was dying when I read that!! LOL


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

This is turning into a rojambo tourney.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Oh duh! you're a jeweler! Where can I see your work? What type of jewerly do you make?



David Wilkinson Design | Facebook


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> This is turning into a rojambo tourney.


Well, do you know how to stop posting?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Lol pot or kettle we are both still black. Just because I suck doesn't make you any better. At least I'm not in denial about it. Right now you are turning alright to good. You seriously need to be knocked down a peg. Also no one has complemented your pics on this thread they have just been giving you business advice. Open your eyes. Go ahead ask bitter if he thinks your pics are awesome.
> ...



I'll get to awesome someday


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Sorry bitter I don't listen to sarcastic old men. I can't read your post unless they are quoted. I stopped listening to your smarta$$ comments a long time ago.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



Well of course! Which is why I mainly post C&Cs... so I can learn and grow from my mistakes. 

Odd poses huh? So tell me how I should "pose" an 18th month old toddler or a 2, 3 even a 4 year old? What is your suggestion because i'd REALLY honestly like to know!


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Oh duh! you're a jeweler! Where can I see your work? What type of jewerly do you make?
> ...



Fine work!


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## Dao (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Bitter Jeweler said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...




You know, if you can go to different forums and start threads like this, and each threads have pointers point back to your website, your site may rank pretty high in search engine.  And that may help in your photography business.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Sorry bitter I don't listen to sarcastic old men. I can't read your post unless they are quoted. I stopped listening to your smarta$$ comments a long time ago.


 So you missed the post about your maturity level?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Oh duh! you're a jeweler! Where can I see your work? What type of jewerly do you make?
> ...



So what do you do? Do you add missing diamonds and stones to the jewelery or do you actually make and sculpt the jewelry? I love the pics. The jewelry is so pretty.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Everything you see was hand made, from scratch.


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## willis_927 (Jun 12, 2011)

Some of the stuff I am reading here is complete bullsh*t. Sabrina, your work is not bad at all. It is good to say the least. Is it awesome? Like Bitter said, no, not yet, but I think you will get there as well.  I have viewed most of the threads you have posted, and I don't recall ever thinking any of them were bad. Keep up the good work.


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## JWellman (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Oh duh! you're a jeweler! Where can I see your work? What type of jewerly do you make?
> ...


Oooooo I 'liked' you on facebook! :mrgreen:

I would go broke in your business. I would want to keep everything I made.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Everything you see was hand made, from scratch.



OMG! They are amazing. I can't even begin to think how you do it.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

vtf said:


> dallasimagery said:
> 
> 
> > +1. I'd add that the white balance is off, the composition is poor, and the poses look like copies of other posts on this forum - cliche, static, amateurish and uninventive.
> ...



hahaha


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Sorry bitter I don't listen to sarcastic old men. I can't read your post unless they are quoted. I stopped listening to your smarta$$ comments a long time ago.



As much as Bitter drives me crazy (sometimes )... I never put him on ignore. You need a thicker skin buddy...


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo, You gotta be kidding me man. You sound so completely ignorant and stupid by spewing your BS around here. I find it particularly hysterical that you complain tirelessly about how she's "not ready" to charge yet you started a thread about buying a full frame camera? Are you kidding? You think you have the ability to use a full frame to its fullest extent? Give me a break. SabrinaO's work is good and i commend her for putting in the time and effort that she has to produce those images in only 8months time. You on the other hand are spending most of your time pissing people off and sounding like a complete a$$. Get a grip on reality man. This is probably why your wife is upset with you "stealing her dream" because you suck and she knows she could be better.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

And when was the last time I posted a portrait in my studio. Oh yeah when I joined and it was my first ever child shoot. Well according to sabrina a person can get better in that short of a time. Lol I love how you just plain out insult me coming to this womans rescue. When not more than a few weeks ago someone posted a similar thread and the same guys tore that guy apart.its different when its your friend huh


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bitter I don't listen to sarcastic old men. I can't read your post unless they are quoted. I stopped listening to your smarta$$ comments a long time ago.
> ...


youre the one that pulled the snap show remember.


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## lyonsroar (Jun 12, 2011)

Little afternoon snack:


Then I'm off to do some shooting.  Last time I checked this was "The Photo Forum" not "The ***** at Each Other Boards."


Sabrina, your stuff is good, be confident in that and ignore the haters.

Haters gonna hate.
Trolls gonna troll.
Taters gonna tate.
All that good stuff. 
:thumbup:


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

iNick said:


> Kbarredo, You gotta be kidding me man. You sound so completely ignorant and stupid by spewing your BS around here. I find it particularly hysterical that you complain tirelessly about how she's "not ready" to charge yet you started a thread about buying a full frame camera? Are you kidding? You think you have the ability to use a full frame to its fullest extent? Give me a break. SabrinaO's work is good and i commend her for putting in the time and effort that she has to produce those images in only 8months time. You on the other hand are spending most of your time pissing people off and sounding like a complete a$$. Get a grip on reality man. This is probably why your wife is upset with you "stealing her dream" because you suck and she knows she could be better.


Lol you think you have to right to insult me. Have you seen your photos. A dead tree on a bunch of rocks, some pic with you holding a knife. Ooooh so creative yeah you are so much better than me. So whats your color kettle. The worst part is you've been here almost a full year longer. So how come youre not better than sabrina?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> And when was the last time I posted a portrait in my studio. Oh yeah when I joined and it was my first ever child shoot. Well according to sabrina a person can get better in that short of a time. Lol I love how you just plain out insult me coming to this womans rescue. When not more than a few weeks ago someone posted a similar thread and the same guys tore that guy apart.its different when its your friend huh



What? I have no "friends" on here...lol. I don't even know Nick so he's not "coming to my rescue"... hes just stating the obvious. So if you have gotten any better lets see your work before you start bashing other peoples work...


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > And when was the last time I posted a portrait in my studio. Oh yeah when I joined and it was my first ever child shoot. Well according to sabrina a person can get better in that short of a time. Lol I love how you just plain out insult me coming to this womans rescue. When not more than a few weeks ago someone posted a similar thread and the same guys tore that guy apart.its different when its your friend huh
> ...


 I havent done any portraits since then because its not my thing anymore. I do still objects shots now. Lets see your landscapes.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> iNick said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo, You gotta be kidding me man. You sound so completely ignorant and stupid by spewing your BS around here. I find it particularly hysterical that you complain tirelessly about how she's "not ready" to charge yet you started a thread about buying a full frame camera? Are you kidding? You think you have the ability to use a full frame to its fullest extent? Give me a break. SabrinaO's work is good and i commend her for putting in the time and effort that she has to produce those images in only 8months time. You on the other hand are spending most of your time pissing people off and sounding like a complete a$$. Get a grip on reality man. This is probably why your wife is upset with you "stealing her dream" because you suck and she knows she could be better.
> ...



I like Nick's work. Lets see yours


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > iNick said:
> ...


 I dont have a facebook page or a site of my own. All you can do is look at my posts.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



No it isn't your thing. I don't do landscapes because it isn't MY thing. Lets see your landscapes


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



Oh so you can't upload a single picture from your computer onto flickr or photobucket??


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## mrpink (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



She does not charge for landscapes, she was not asking for advice on finding clients for landscape shots, anything else unrelated you wish to bring up?

Kbarredo... are you just against anyone who wishes to "go pro"?  http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/photography-beginners-forum-photo-gallery/244824-do-i-have-right-angry-here.html







p!nK


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

mrpink said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...


 Nope just people who charge for mediocre work. I believe you should charge when youre awesome and so far no one has said she was awesome.
Sabrina look for Kbarredo in photobucket.


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > SabrinaO said:
> ...



Sabrina...he's just trolling, pushing your buttons.


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## thebutler4 (Jun 12, 2011)

We should lock the thread .. maybe the troll will go away ..


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

i really don't know why im feeding him. Maybe im just bored


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Hey I was leaving it alone until nick came around and stirred the pot again. Just look at the posts. I stopped for a few hours when everyone stopped talking to me. You dont want me to respond stop calling me out.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Just go away! Go back in your shadow. Thank you all who gave really good business/advertising advice


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## Ryan L (Jun 12, 2011)

Ohh this sounds like a contest!! 






Guys it time to whip it out and measure up!


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## Raian-san (Jun 12, 2011)

Lol I think her work is fine. I'm just a bit annoyed that expo likes every post Sabrina makes. 

Kbarredo, I haven't been on much but I swear, whenever you post something on here, it's to whine and cry over something to plead for attention. I've seen many of your work and it's not good at all. Not to down on your work but if you're going to say someone skills is bad and etc, you at least got to back it up with your own work. It took her 8 months and she's already taking good photo and charging people. She's dedicated and only post this thread to ask for advice. Good or bad advice, why not? It's free to post on here. At least she's trying and seeking for advices on ways to improve her business. IMO you always come off as a hater who's jealous and envious of other people just like when you complain about your friend. Just my 2 cents.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Ryan L said:


> Ohh this sounds like a contest!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 One problem the other one is a girl.


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## Ryan L (Jun 12, 2011)

Its the internet, we really dont know whats hiding behind these screens. lol


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Like I said how come you guys will tear a person apart when they ask about being professional in such a short time. Then sabrina asks after only 8 months and all of you take her side. Is it because you just hate me that much more that you go against your own natural attitude just to spite me. Think about it. All of you tore my friend apart, all of you tore the others apart but for some reason sabrina is off limits. Wow hypocracy here. Its funny that no one is answering that question.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Raian-san said:


> Lol I think her work is fine. I'm just a bit annoyed that expo likes every post Sabrina makes.
> 
> Kbarredo, I haven't been on much but I swear, whenever you post something on here, it's to whine and cry over something to plead for attention. I've seen many of your work and it's not good at all. Not to down on your work but if you're going to say someone skills is bad and etc, you at least got to back it up with your own work. It took her 8 months and she's already taking good photo and charging people. She's dedicated and only post this thread to ask for advice. Good or bad advice, why not? It's free to post on here. At least she's trying and seeking for advices on ways to improve her business. IMO you always come off as a hater who's jealous and envious of other people just like when you complain about your friend. Just my 2 cents.



What is expo?


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## Ryan L (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Like I said how come you guys will tear a person apart when they ask about being professional in such a short time. Then sabrina asks after only 8 months and all of you take her side. Is it because you just hate me that much more that you go against your own natural attitude just to spite me. Think about it. All of you tore my friend apart, all of you tore the others apart but for some reason sabrina is off limits. Wow hypocracy here. Its funny that no one is answering that question.



I think I know what thread you're referring to. Personally I like girls better than guys. Hey I am a guy, its my sexual orientation. Kidding, not really sure about everyone else, but you come off as very defensive. Hmm maybe its the profile picture, its a dark and little evil looking, got some bad juju going on! Where the name Sabrina, is cute and innocent, a picture of a baby as a avatar, its hard to hate on babies.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Raian-san said:


> Lol I think her work is fine. I'm just a bit annoyed that expo likes every post Sabrina makes.
> 
> Kbarredo, I haven't been on much but I swear, whenever you post something on here, it's to whine and cry over something to plead for attention. I've seen many of your work and it's not good at all. Not to down on your work but if you're going to say someone skills is bad and etc, you at least got to back it up with your own work. It took her 8 months and she's already taking good photo and charging people. She's dedicated and only post this thread to ask for advice. Good or bad advice, why not? It's free to post on here. At least she's trying and seeking for advices on ways to improve her business. IMO you always come off as a hater who's jealous and envious of other people just like when you complain about your friend. Just my 2 cents.


 Not good at all but according to sabrinas logic I get alot of good feedback from my friends that I do my shots for.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Like I said how come you guys will tear a person apart when they ask about being professional in such a short time. Then sabrina asks after only 8 months and all of you take her side. Is it because you just hate me that much more that you go against your own natural attitude just to spite me. Think about it. All of you tore my friend apart, all of you tore the others apart but for some reason sabrina is off limits. Wow hypocracy here. Its funny that no one is answering that question.



I've been torn apart many times here! I got torn apart because I was doing a wedding and being "inexperienced". I just got torn apart because I asked about a certain focus mode. I get torn apart for stupid things but I'm not gonna cry about it. I take the good in with the bad. The "good" gives me the confidence and the "bad" gives me the drive to be better at what I do.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

Ryan L said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said how come you guys will tear a person apart when they ask about being professional in such a short time. Then sabrina asks after only 8 months and all of you take her side. Is it because you just hate me that much more that you go against your own natural attitude just to spite me. Think about it. All of you tore my friend apart, all of you tore the others apart but for some reason sabrina is off limits. Wow hypocracy here. Its funny that no one is answering that question.
> ...


 Believe me you dont want my face lit up either, its much better this way. I really think its just because I decided to throw the first stone. If it was bitter, everyone would jump on the wagon.


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## Raian-san (Jun 12, 2011)

Can we all just get along? :thumbup:


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## Kbarredo (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said how come you guys will tear a person apart when they ask about being professional in such a short time. Then sabrina asks after only 8 months and all of you take her side. Is it because you just hate me that much more that you go against your own natural attitude just to spite me. Think about it. All of you tore my friend apart, all of you tore the others apart but for some reason sabrina is off limits. Wow hypocracy here. Its funny that no one is answering that question.
> ...


 But if Im giving you the bad you just plain insult my pictures. I give you contructive criticism that others have said and im the a hole.


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## pgriz (Jun 12, 2011)

Interesting thread. You get the good, the bad, the ugly. About par for the internet.

Sabrina, the business side is work &#8211; hard work. Just because you&#8217;re good at something, doesn&#8217;t mean you will succeed in business. Here are a few links that may give you some things to think about:
Why Small Businesses Fail: Top 7 Reasons Startups Fail And How To Avoid Failure

reasons Businesses Fail: 5 Reasons Why Start-up Businesses Fail

Business Failure - Business Failure Statistics - Starting a Small Business

Making money from an activity is very different from making a living from that activity. In the first, you cover the cost of doing something, and if you&#8217;ve got money left over, you&#8217;ve &#8220;made money&#8221;. In the second, you need to generate a steady cash flow (because you like to eat, live in a house, wear clothes, etc., and all of those create a steady outflow of funds, which you need to cover with a steady income), that covers the cost of doing the &#8220;something&#8221; AND pays the business for the overhead and the non-revenue generating activity (marketing, prospecting, book-keeping, customer followup, supplier/vendor followup, etc.).

As the third link says, the usual reasons for business failure are: 1) weak general management, 2) weak financial management and 3) weak marketing capabilities.

For small business, the &#8220;general management&#8221; usually covers skills such as managing your commitments (calendar/todo list), having a routine by which all the essential elements are done EACH DAY (bank statements downloaded, calendar updated, mail opened/sorted/answered, phone calls responded to, filing done, etc.), managing your prospects, clients (recording all the important contact info, making schedules, delivering on commitments, meeting client expectations) and doing the same thing for your suppliers/vendors and networking group.

The financial management should be part of your business plan, and always involves having a clear monthly budget for revenues, expenses, and investment items. There are two types of expenses &#8211; job-related, and overhead related. These need to be tracked separately and the overhead expenses must be clearly identified and actively managed. In general, the business mantra is Revenues less job/project costs gives you the gross margin, less overhead gives you the net margin. The important question to ask, is how many jobs/projects do you have to do each month at your usual gross margin, to cover all the overhead? That sets your minimum sales target for the month. Another reality of small business is that just because you sold something, doesn&#8217;t mean you can take it to the bank until you collect and managing your policies of deposits/collections will often determine your success or failure.

The final category is marketing management, and that covers identifying your target market, learning how to effectively reach the people who will pay your prices, and at the same time how to beat off the competition. In general, the more of a niche your occupy, the fewer competitors you have, but also the smaller a slice of the overall market you have. Qualifying prospective customers into the 20% that will likely buy and the 80% that will waste your time, is an important survival skill.

When you reach the stage of wanting to hire someone, like BJ is planning/doing, then you&#8217;ll find another truism of management: unless you hire the right person, give them the right training and ongoing supervision, and focus their efforts within a system that you manage/control, you&#8217;ll be adding to your headaches instead of lessening them. 

I am really happy that you are motivated and are progressing in your chosen field, but when you make the transition to business-person, your chosen field may diminish to as little as 20% of your daily working hours. The rest of the time, you&#8217;ll be running the business. That&#8217;s just the nature of the beast.


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Are you reading the same thread?? I said nothing about your photos UNTIL you started flaming mines about how my work is mediocre and you would never pay. I said nothing about your work. Then I decided to take a look at your work since you seemed to be so critical of mines then I was shocked that your work isn't good at all. So who are you to judge?


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## vtf (Jun 12, 2011)

ibtl  
What happened to my smiley faces?


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

pgriz said:


> Interesting thread. You get the good, the bad, the ugly. About par for the internet.
> 
> Sabrina, the business side is work &#8211; hard work. Just because you&#8217;re good at something, doesn&#8217;t mean you will succeed in business. Here are a few links that may give you some things to think about:
> Why Small Businesses Fail: Top 7 Reasons Startups Fail And How To Avoid Failure
> ...



Thanks for the read and the links pgriz. I think I need to sit down and re-evaulate my approach to starting/running a business.


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## Ron Evers (Jun 12, 2011)

Well, I made it through all 10 pages & my wife said "make your own popcorn".


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## SabrinaO (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> SabrinaO said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...




Constructive criticism? How is telling me my work is mediocre and bad, you wouldn't pay and that im "not ready" constructive? Between this thread and others.... im starting to think you are not all there upstairs. Yes you said my lighting is flat. SO TELL ME HOW THAT CAN BE FIXED. You say that I should work on my posing. OK...so ive been waiting since THIS MORNING on your secret ways on "posing small children. TEll me please. I would really like, or NEED to know. I am waiting on your responses.....


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## cuezombies (Jun 12, 2011)

OP, I think you're talking to a couple of walls here; you'd have more to gain from adding both of them to your ignore list than from continuing the "debate".  Sometimes there's just nothing you can do to stop people from making fools of themselves in public. 

I've had my camera for a couple of months now and have a world of things to learn, so I haven't got a lot of advice to pass on- I lurk more than anything- but there has been a lot of fabulous advice given on this thread and I hate to see it overpowered by a lot of crazy back and forth!


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## mrpink (Jun 12, 2011)

Ryan L said:


> Ohh this sounds like a contest!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see yours stops at 10, guess I will just have to give an estimation....





p!nK


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## Ryan L (Jun 12, 2011)

mrpink said:
			
		

> I see yours stops at 10, guess I will just have to give an estimation....
> 
> p!nK



Lmao!! It was shrinkage I tell you! I was in the pool!!


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## o hey tyler (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.



Ever notice how you post any thread you want in the beginners forum regardless of its relevancy to photography or even beginning photography?

Ever notice how you whine about everything? 

Ever notice how you give business advice without actually having a business? 

Ever notice how you lack basic spelling and grammatical skills when typing? 

Do you?


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

I never said a word about my work. This isn't about me it's about you being a jerk on every thread you write on. But I honesty don't care what you think about my work.


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## pgriz (Jun 12, 2011)

Ron Evers said:


> Well, I made it through all 10 pages & my wife said "make your own popcorn".



Ah, but Ron, think about millions of manhours were spent developing the hardware and the code to make the internet what it is, and the billions of dollars it took to make the infrastructure investments, just so we can exchange our deeply-considered thoughts in the global common place.   Surely those who participate in this modern miracle will maintain the gravitas of the possibilities presented to us.  Or not.  But it does have the benefit of parading in front of us the whole array of human interaction, from the informed and thought-provoking to the ridiculous and idiotic.  What do you take on your popcorn?


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## subscuck (Jun 12, 2011)

o hey tyler said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.
> ...



Bingo.


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## dallasimagery (Jun 12, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> Thanks for the read and the links pgriz. I think I need to sit down and re-evaulate my approach to starting/running a business.



Good idea! Lol


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## ghache (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.



Too bad your wife is ****ing your bestfriend that has a photography facebook page.


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## ghache (Jun 12, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> And when was the last time I posted a portrait in my studio. Oh yeah when I joined and it was my first ever child shoot. Well according to sabrina a person can get better in that short of a time. Lol I love how you just plain out insult me coming to this womans rescue. When not more than a few weeks ago someone posted a similar thread and the same guys tore that guy apart.its different when its your friend huh




You dont have a studio, you have a flash and you dont even know how to use it. you are so full of bull****.
Your wife hates you
You are jealous of you friends because they actually have more guts than you.
You ask very basic questions then you post in thread and act like you have 35 years of photography and business experience.

you are a troll and nobody will ever take you seriously. 


you failed.


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## thebutler4 (Jun 12, 2011)

WOW ^^ .. lol

humm .. allrighty than ... lol


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## dxqcanada (Jun 12, 2011)

I think it is time to dump the developer ... it is exhausted.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

At this photography thing for 8 months.... - Who Posted?


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## MWG (Jun 12, 2011)

lol

i suck at photography 2 yallz...its all good b, just read a few books and your gonna be STRAIT, yeard me?

holla back g money

im outie


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## iNick (Jun 12, 2011)

On a side note, Bitter, your jewelry work is absolutely amazing. Aside from the Atlanta Braves piece (LETS GO METS) sorry, but seriously, you do incredible work. (The product photos are top notch as well) 

:thumbup:

-Nick


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks Nick. You are a little too kind calling my product shots top notch though. I'm still learning and fine tuning to get what I am after. But, thanks.


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## ghache (Jun 12, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> Thanks Nick. You are a little too kind calling my product shots top notch though. I'm still learning and fine tuning to get what I am after. But, thanks.



I just joined the facebook page, they look really nice


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## Kbarredo (Jun 13, 2011)

ghache said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > Ever notice how bitter and tyler always defend each other. I guess husband and wife always do have each others backs.
> ...


 lol did I hit a nerve there. Its amazing I thought no one could sink lower than me. But you resorting to angry insults.lol


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## ghache (Jun 13, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



LOL, a nerve? not really

 you are right, no one can sink lower than you.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 13, 2011)

ghache said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > And when was the last time I posted a portrait in my studio. Oh yeah when I joined and it was my first ever child shoot. Well according to sabrina a person can get better in that short of a time. Lol I love how you just plain out insult me coming to this womans rescue. When not more than a few weeks ago someone posted a similar thread and the same guys tore that guy apart.its different when its your friend huh
> ...





ghache said:


> Kbarredo said:
> 
> 
> > ghache said:
> ...


 lol just you. I don't resort to not photo related insults. Calm down princess


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## ghache (Jun 13, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> ghache said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...



but you post thread about your life on a photography forum.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 13, 2011)

And you complain about all of them. So who is the whiney lowlife now douche I mean ghache


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 13, 2011)

Kbarredo said:


> I don't resort to not photo related insults.


You should probably reread your posts in this thread. 
You will find that statement to be a lie. 
Your idiocy knows no bounds.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 13, 2011)

subscuck said:


> o hey tyler said:
> 
> 
> > Kbarredo said:
> ...


 English is my second language, how many languages can you speak fluently? Once again bitter if your posts are about me I cannot see them so stop wasting your time.


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## MissCream (Jun 13, 2011)

Short bus.


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## Bitter Jeweler (Jun 13, 2011)

MissCream said:


> Short bus.


Best. Movie. Ever.


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## fokker (Jun 13, 2011)

Bitter Jeweler said:


> I know I can't do it better than the people trained to do some of this stuff,* nor do I have the time.*



7000 posts in 2 years says otherwise :razz:


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## Kerbouchard (Jun 13, 2011)

Can't this thread be locked, already?  It's time to move on...nothing to see here.


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## Kbarredo (Jun 13, 2011)

Kerbouchard said:


> Can't this thread be locked, already?  It's time to move on...nothing to see here.


Im pretty worn out Im done arguing. Sabrina hope you the best in your business. Im heading to bed and starting over tomorrow. This takes too much of my energy.


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## o hey tyler (Jun 13, 2011)

SabrinaO said:


> yes its flash. I wish i had an html option...



You do have an HTML option. It's called "coding HTML".


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## ekool (Jun 13, 2011)

If this type of behaviour continues I'll be handing out bans.


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