# getting fedup with the biz



## guitarkid (Oct 31, 2006)

i have a day job and started doing video production about 5 years ago because i love working with it so much. not to be conceited, but we are one of the best production houses in the area, which makes this story more disturbing. we take pride in our work and are by no means a cookie-cutter shop. all digital, filming and editing, FX, DVD authoring, etc. i have spent too much of my personal funds to advertise for it. the most biz we saw was about 5 weddings and 2 bands per year. i made no money. i do it for the love of it, but i have to tell you, that only takes you so far after 5 years.

fedup, i turn to photography. i have been into photography, video and audio engineering for about 12 years. i decide to upgrade photography stuff and really push that. we got 8 weddings in the first 6 monhts. hey, that's great but they were all SMALL WEDDINGS! either on tight budgets or only needing 4 hours coverage. only made $450 per wedding. that money went into the biz. 

our photos are really very nice, and we are learning all the time, just like everyone else. i offer online proofing and ordering, wedding albums, always have 2 photographers for the price of one, and i have even included all photos on CD! am i too expensive? too cheap? 

i don't get why studios are raking in the clients at $1800-$2500 and they get no album and no photos! i'm charging $1600 and i include a leather proofbook and all photos on CD with 2 photographers! i always seem to get the cheap $450 weddings...table scraps. IF i get calls or emails, i never hear from most of them again. being in video, i created a beautiful photo montage of some photos set to music for mailing out to potentials when they inquire. still NOTHING! 

i realize the market is full but i only get about 4 inquiries a month.  only 1 wedding comes through once every couple months IF I'M LUCKY. i'm spending more money than i'm making. i want to rely on word-of-mouth but since we have only done photography for 6 months, that won't happen much. i advertise in the knot......that's a joke. tried modern bride, thinking it would be huge! i canceled that contract after 6 months....never 1 call or 1 email !! 

is anyone else in the same boat? should i raise my rates to be $2000 ?? $3000 ?? then will i be taken seriously? 

this bride came over last week to meet in person. she saw the site, the photos, the pricing, talked to me on the phone twice, and was very interested. she comes over and says "we'll think about it and let you know." i don't get that! why waste my time or yours. she saw the pricing and the site and the work before she came over. what are we doing wrong? and we're in chicago serving the city and burbs. people getting married all over.

stressed,

Steve


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## Big Mike (Oct 31, 2006)

Raising your prices may work.  By having lower prices than a lot of the competition...you are targeting the lower end of the market.  People with money to spend, may assume (from the price) that your work is not high quality.

On the other hand, I've been reading that a lot of wedding photographers are having to lower their prices or shut down...the digital revolution seems to have brought an influx of photographers into the market...at all skill levels.

Maybe you need to work on your closing...I'm not sure what to recommend.


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## guitarkid (Oct 31, 2006)

Mike,  you are right.  as i have said many times before, anyone with a computer (most people) and a nice digital camera (growing) is a photographer.  It's nowhere like back in the day with countless lab issues and negatives and proofbooks to be put together and each photo stamped with the co. info on the back.  i remember those days working in a wedding studio when i was 17.  times are different.  i know a couple photographers in my area that are turning down work.  they charge high money and are not really that good.  i don't get it.  not the best work for lots of money or really nice thorough work for less money.

i have seen her promo too by the way.  she sends JPGs on a cd that says MEMOREX or TDK and writes with black sharpie.....photo samples.  WHAT?  unpro tacky.  meanwhile, i'm printing direct to CD.


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## KevinR (Oct 31, 2006)

Although I am just starting out again (used to shoot alot of freelance in the early 90s) And have not really targeted weddings yet (although have shot a few) I have seen a few photogs that moved upscale and started booking more. If you think you have enough of a portfolio from some of these cheaper weddings, than cut those off. Raise prices. What I think you will find is that the brides you see may want to dicker on the price, then you now have some fudge room to do this. By dropping a couple hundred bucks off a more expensive package turns into a win/win situation. Think about investing in setting up a booth at some wedding shows with some strong ad verts at the booth. Make it visual appealing, don't make your pamphlets to big and give out candy. You may be surprised at how many calls you get.


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## niccig (Oct 31, 2006)

I agree with Mike and Kevin- raising your prices would probably help.  All the pro studios around here (central KY) are charging $1500, and it only goes up from there.  I got married in May, and we paid $400 for our photographer - an art student at Murray State, and a friend of my now-sis-in-law.  We were definitely on a tight budget, so we had to sacrifice experience for a good price (fortunately we didn't have to sacrifice quality though).  I only found one photographer in the area who had prices for under $1000 - that one was something like $350 for just a CD of digital negs.  My initial reaction was "If they're that cheap, they can't be that good."  Now I realize they were probably building their portfolio or some such, but I had no way of knowing that then.

 I'm not a wedding photographer (just an art student for now), so all my advice comes from a bride's perspective, keeping in mind that I was photog-shopping before I really knew more about photography than you have to push the button.

#1 Advertise - I wanted really good photos of my wedding (and I got them, btw), but I was also dealing with the caterer, the reception site, the baker, buying a dress, and I did my own decorations - all on top of working full-time.  My search for a photographer consisted of looking at the yellow pages, a quick search on Google, and asking family for references (which is how I found my photographer).  

#2 Have a great website - I looked at quite a few photographer websites, and if it didn't look professional, or it wasn't easy to find the information I wanted, I didn't spend much time on it, and definitely didn't contact them.  My assumption was that if they didn't care enough about their business to try to make a good first impression, then that would be reflected in their service

#3 Customer service - If I emailed someone for more info and they took more than a day or two to respond, I moved on.  I didn't want to deal with someone who I might or might not be able to get in touch with when it was important.

I think going to bridal shows would be good.  I went to a couple, and it was an absolute SEA of women about to get married.  I hear it's expensive, but I can't think of anywhere else you're going to find that many prospective clients corralled into one place.  You may also be able to work out a deal with other wedding vendors in the area, where they recommend you (or just keep a stack of your business cards on their front counter) in return for the same from you.  For example, our reception site recommended a caterer and DJ to us.  We didn't end up using those vendors (because we weren't that impressed with them once we met them), but they were the first people we called.  I've also heard of other people working out deals with other photographers for overflow business - if they're too busy, they recommend you as an alternate choice and vice versa.  That probably works better if you're already friends with the other photographer though...

You may also try offering something that the other people aren't - if everyone's doing digital, offer silver prints, or something like that.  It may raise your costs, but you'll be able to raise your prices since it's better than everyone else.


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## craig (Nov 1, 2006)

The above posts are definitely sage advice. I do commercial/editorial work so I may not know what I am talking about here.

Consider that "nice" photos will get you nowhere. Especially if the market is saturated. Clients hire on creativity. Folks walking in off the street need to be "wowed" especially if it is their wedding day. For that they are willing to pay anything.


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## guitarkid (Nov 1, 2006)

great advice guys. thanks. i think i may raise the prices again. customer service is VERY IMPORTANT TO ME. i don't like to wait either. i am ALWAYS on the pc so if an email comes through i respond to it within 5 minutes. it always blows them away. and i ask for a mailing address to send a DVD promo to if they are interested. it's in the mail that day. maybe it freaks them out that i'm so fast...who knows. we incorporate standard and candid / journalistic (hate that word) approaches in photography and are very creative. i always include some black and white as copies and black and white / colored bouquet in there for free. creativity runs our shots. i don't like to limit it to journalistic only or standard only. i know some photographers who have turned down gigs because the bride wanted backdrop shots and the photographer would not do it. why not? it's what they want. anyway, this is great advice. my joke is that if i GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY AND WORK TOTALLY FOR FREE!!!! i still wouldn't get the gigs. it's a joke. time will tell but for now i'm not going to actively pursue it / beat myself up over it. i have chalked it up to; it's their loss. just rely on magazine ads and word of mouth and website and in the meantime, get back to guitar, that i have longgggg been keeping on the back burner. i need to start working on a new album anyway.


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## newrmdmike (Nov 1, 2006)

marketing and promoting is about 80% of my work, and maybe 20% is spent shooting, or even less.  promotion is EVERYTHING.  if your not marketing to the right croud.  and my experience has been that jobs don't generally come to me, i go to them.  the first five years of business however you would be doing well to just cover the costs.  

own your zip code, get good ad space, start a blog, etc.

i'm promoting the crap out of myself at the moment with a blog i just started as well as a website, i hand out flyers, call people, put up posters etc.  

pretty people for advertising really helps alot to, and i have discounts for people who refer others, etc.

Its been tons of work, and it doesn't feel like i really get back what i put in, but the jobs have been coming at an increased rate now.


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## sylph (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm not a wedding photographer either.... but... I'm going to touch on some points that the above poster made...


#1 Advertise -  Yes, how are you advertising?  Is your website optimized for search engines?  Have you learned all about search engine optimization?  Do you use a statcounter so you can track what keywords people are searching to find you on Google, etc. with?

#2 Have a great website - Yes, this is more important than you may think in today's world.  My website brings me TONS of business... my website is usually the reason why people book, and I am working on a new website at this moment, hoping to launch it next week.

#3 Customer service -  Yes, this is important - this is an area I need to work on myself....  

Like someone else mentioned, if you are competing with only pricing, you are probably getting the "looking for a deal" customer.  I raised up my prices and lost customers but gained BIG customers... I'm raising again this month...

Again, I don't know the wedding market inside and out but there are certain trends... and perception is everything... seriously, get your business perceived as "exclusive" and "expensive" and you hit a better-spending market.  I can't get over the fact that you are only making $450 per wedding... my portrait customers generally spend at least $1,000 each for a two-hour shoot and their prints.


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## guitarkid (Nov 2, 2006)

sylph, great suggestions too...thanks.  the $450 comes from the hourly rate i charge.  if someone only needs 3 hours for a small wedding, i charge $150 per hour, minimum 3 hours.  That is where the $450 comes in.  I put all photos up for online proofing and that is all.  I think I will up the pricing.  Right now the smallest I have is $900 for 5 hours coverage.  That is for couples who don't require an all day shoot.  I think I may change the pricing AGAIN.


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## Big Mike (Nov 2, 2006)

I started a wedding photography class last night.  The instructor pushed the concept of higher prices...quite a bit.  The average price in my area is $1500-$2000...and he said that there is no reason we should think of charging less than that.


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## newrmdmike (Nov 2, 2006)

my thoughts on that are also that by not charging the going rate your hurting the industry, and are making it harder for everyone to charge as much as they do.  don't sell yourself short.  jerrry ghionis and bambi cantrell both tought the same thing. i would say they are saying that so they can do better themselves, except its good for you as well, and that price range automatically may ensure you the type of client you want


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## guitarkid (Nov 2, 2006)

sounds like a decent plan.  when you guys setup pricing, quick question, do you limit hours at all?  it's not good to be taken advantage of.  a bride may need you 8 hours OR she may say, can you be at my house at 10am?  wedding at noon, and the party goes till midnight.  you're looking at a 14 hour day.  what would you do then.  i know a couple photographers who got roped in to a 16 hour day.  that's really not cool.  would you then say, well, then it's an additional $500, or would you let it fly?  

that is the cool thing about owning a recording studio.  bands pay for WHAT THEY USE BY THE HOUR.  if they are there for 8 hours, they pay for 8 hours.  if it takes me 16 hours to mix their CD, they pay for 16 hours.  video and photo are so all over the map with hours and travel, etc.


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## Big Mike (Nov 2, 2006)

I've seen a lot of wedding photogs break down their packages into hours of coverage.  A small package is 3-4 hours; ceremony and formals.  A bigger package may be 4-6 hours; ceremony, formals and either prep time or some of the reception (up to cake cutting or certain time).  Then of course there would be a full day package...which might be 12 hours or more.  Either way...they often have a price per hour...for time over and above the allotted time.  This way, they can't really take advantage of you because you will be charging them.  Or at least, you can remind them when you are paid up until...and that if they want any more photos...to get them in before you leave.


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## niccig (Nov 2, 2006)

I think Mike's suggestion is the way to go.  Also, for jobs longer than a certain amount (maybe 8-9 hours), maybe you could require that they "purchase" a second shooter?  It would still be a long day, but you'd at least be able to take breaks.


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## Cinka (Mar 20, 2010)

I have a friend who one day decided to buy a new camera. She asked my advice and I gave it to her happily. Within weeks, she was booking weddings and now has a bustling business in less than a year. She is constantly working while I struggle to book anything. 

Are her photographs anything special? No, not really. In fact, just about everyone is doing the same style these days and she's very cookie cutter. 

I've been racking my brain trying to figure out why she's booking hand over fist and I've only booked one this year. The reason? She's perky, outgoing, networks at church, has a huge group of friends, networks like mad, goes to every shoot-out she can, and constantly talks about her business. She also posts new images on her Facebook almost daily. 

Do I do any of that? Some. I also realized that networking is key. I need to do more of it and make talking about my business my business. Word of mouth is the best way to get new clients. I've been shooting longer than this gal and she's making it in less than a year. Very frustrating. I don't put myself out there enough. That's changing this year. I'll be going out more, telling people about my work, and continuing to build an outstanding wedding portfolio to show. I will not be outdone by a GWC.


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## craig (Mar 20, 2010)

Excellent attitude!!!!!!! That is what is going to get the jobs. 

I also owe you a big up. I checked GURU.com after your original post and have been making good money from that site. 

Love & Bass


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## the iconic image (Mar 20, 2010)

Going to give you some sobering advice and some straight up honest information. Some of this has already been posted but I am 18 years in this business and I think that may carry some weight. Price means something if you can't produce the goods. If you can produce the goods, then pricing is relative to your skill level and uniqueness. In 2010, anyone who has ever taken a shot of a flower at high noon at f16 and had any luck with over half of the flower being in focus is the following: A photographer. 

THATS the good news.. Unfortunately that is the bad news as well. There is no denying that the digital age has produced hundreds of thousands of people who now think of themselves as photographers because aunt Suzy saw a picture they shot of her baby nephew where one of the kids eyes was in focus. It isn't going to get any better as time goes on. The days when you could become a success at working and honing your craft to become someone whose product stands out amongst the crowd of uncle Bob's photo services has come to a screeching halt. If you are frustrated NOW, just wait another month and it will be 300 times worse till you give it up. Uncle Bob will shoot a picture for the newspaper that with 30 minutes of post photoshop work you can almost determine what he was shooting simply for the recognition of seeing "courtesy of uncle bobs photo service," in the paper. Billy the drunk will shoot a wedding for a 6 pack of budweiser and 2 pieces of cake. 

In 2010 you either have some serious contacts who'll hire you despite the fact Sally next door took a picture of her dog one time and offers to shoot for gas money and a diet coke, OR, you are so extremely talented that Annie Lebowitz is looking over her shoulder to see if you're gaining on her. Hate to put it to you like this since you are already frustrated but I think it's best to know the ugly truth than to be schmucked into thinking the smell coming from your rotting client base is just the black mold growing on your hopes and dreams. Wish I had better news for you.

mike zukerman photography


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## craig (Mar 20, 2010)

I am sorry you had such a hard time in the photography biz Michael. The effects of hobbyists trying to become pro is changing the market but it is not as grim as you depict. Yes the market is changing. Only means that photographers have to adapt their marketing and services. 

Since we are talking in generalities. I can say that photography is thriving here in LA. The GWC's and their clients have Craigslist. The rest of us are finding success because web businesses need constant photography. In the short time that I have been in LA I have found that there is work for everyone as long as you put some time into marketing. 

I should mention that I am a commercial photographer. I think the retail world is being hit a little harder.

Love & Bass


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## the iconic image (Mar 20, 2010)

I had to re-look at the original post Craig to see if you were speaking to me, or someone else and I still don't know. But I don't find the photography business particularly tough for myself in case you were speaking to me. My post was meant for a newbie who is looking to get into the business in 2010 who might think like a lot of people do, buy an slr, get a 3 dollar led flashlight, and quit the day job.. My business rests nicely on 18 years of experience and I'm very happy I'm not just now trying to get a foothold out there. If you weren't speaking to ME, as Gilda would say, never mind.. 

mike zukerman photography


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## craig (Mar 20, 2010)

I am speaking to you Iconic image. I guess I should have said that instead of Michael in the opening sentence. 

I get what you are saying. 5 years ago I think it was totally true. These days newbies and especially clients are wising up to serious photography. Generally speaking of course. 

Love & Bass


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## guitarkid (Jun 26, 2011)

Boy it's been a few good years since I posted here...man time flies.  Well, these are all very good replies.  Not sure if the last statement was for me or not.  I'm certainly no noob to photography or even video or audio engineering.  At the time I wrote the original post I was doing photography for MY studio for about 5 years with a declining client base.  I spent 12 hours a day on my day job, which includes travel, everyday.  Then, coming home to a family, and staying up till midnight in marketing and posting and advertising almost every night, having to get up at 5am to do it again.  I did this for a few years.  Not sure how I lasted.  I had to stop because I couldn't do it anymore.  Funds for marketing in the Chicago mags ran out, and all marketing stopped.  I have since relied just on my website to get maybe 4 photo clients a year...this year will be 5.  I don't need it to survive, but, rather, to supplement what my family needs.  I don't have a partner or investors.  I did it all myself and at one time had 20 weddings a year.  Not bad considering I was a one man show handling everything from start to finish including wedding albums to website to prints with the lab, and everything inbetween.  I'm not really trying now either, just relying on my website with very little emails or calls.  I did however sign a nice wedding client today for next year who just happened to find my website.  I wish I had 18 years of client base that I could keep pulling from, but, I don't.  For me it's great fun and I still run my biz, working with clients as I get them...and I get more sleep now too.  I also make more money because I don't have to blow it all in marketing, just to make enough money on the next wedding to blow it all again in marketing month to month.  this economy hasn't helped either.  I know a lot of studios that have cut shooters in half and dropped prices dramatically.


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## imagemaker46 (Jun 27, 2011)

What the Iconic Image had to say was spot on for the new generation of amateurs looking to turn pro, but it's not even that they are looking to build a business, what they are looking to do is make some extra cash on the weekends, many have no intention of going though the steps to make what they call a professional photographic business a real business.  They don't pay taxes on the money they make, they don't pay any professional fees, and many of them are still working the 9-5 jobs.  I have no problem if someone wants to take a shot at becoming a professional but to understand what it's like, or what it's going to be like, quit the day job use the money you have in the bank as start up and see how long it lasts until it's not fun anymore.  My business has been affected to a certain degree by the weekend semi-professional amateur, as a guy explained to me a few weeks ago as how he defines himself.  I don't shoot weddings, I have a good friend that does and send requests his way, it's professional courtesy and mutual respect for another professional.  I have day rates, but am not strick about them, as I believe that day rates are a things of the past, I work within clients budgets now.  I recently undercut a weekend amateur who had been working in my home town shooting sports for years, seems that when you offer skills and experience to the right people and back it up with the images, the amateurs don't look so good anymore.  After decades of shooting, working from the start, getting a few breaks along the way, and being respected as a sports photographer, I find going full circle back to the grass roots for work.  The bottom line for me on this is, I'll take any work that comes along.  It's not often that 13-14 year old kids playing football are having their games covered by a photographer that has had  credit lines in Sports Illustrated. 

Digital has changed eveything good and bad, and any established photographer that hasn't been affected by it to some degree is either lying or very lucky.


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