# The new Nikon Z-Mount Cameras- who is in?



## Peeb (Aug 18, 2018)

EDIT:  it is spectacular... and a disappointment:

*SPECTACULAR-*
Nikon's long-awaited Z7 mirrorless camera is here, and it's spectacular


*MAYBE WAIT-*





Expected to be announced on Aug 23.  *EDIT:  YEP*. Rumor is that this new full frame nikon mirrorless line will have the new larger 'Z' mount lens.  *YEP*.  More rumors: there will be a Z6 (24 MP) and Z7 (45 MP), and a 50 prime, a 24-70 f/4 and a wide prime plus a SUPER low aperture 58 mm at f/.95.  I'm told to expect IBIS.  *ALL TRUE*.  Curious to see if they go with phase or contrast focus tech.  *HYBRID THAT USES BOTH.*  Something to match canon dual pixel focus?  *NOPE.*

If pricing of the z6 is anywhere near 2K USD and if it is not a total flop technically, I expect to be all-in personally, but I want some real-world reviews first.  *EDIT: SEE COMMENTS. * Does the F-mount adapter work perfectly for both AF and VR?  *EDIT:  SO FAR, SO GOOD*

Your thoughts?

* Certain  to buy- finally!
* Likely to buy- let's see how they do (I'm here)
* Could buy, but not certain
* Likely to NOT buy
* Certain to pass.

Or,... something else.  What say you?


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## Destin (Aug 18, 2018)

Peeb said:


> Expected to be announced on Aug 23.  Rumor is that this new full frame nikon mirrorless line will have the new larger 'Z' mount lens.  More rumors: there will be a Z6 (24 MP) and Z7 (45 MP), and a 50 prime, a 24-70 f/4 and a wide prime plus a SUPER low aperture 58 mm at f/.95.  I'm told to expect IBIS.  Curious to see if they go with phase or contrast focus tech.  Something to match canon dual pixel focus?
> 
> If pricing of the z6 is anywhere near 2K USD and if it is not a total flop technically, I expect to be all-in personally, but I want some real-world reviews first.  Does the F-mount adapter work perfectly for both AF and VR?
> 
> ...



If the F mount adapter works perfectly with every lens I already own (including third party) then I’ll heavily consider going to at least a Z6 in addition to what u have now. Personally, I’d be really tempted to trade out my D810 and entire Fuji kit to get a Z7. 

But for me it hinges on the f mount adapter. If that isn’t *perfect* I’ll likely just go with a D850 because it’s so damn good. 

Either way, I won’t be an early adopter. I’ll give it 6 months to a year to make sure there are no major issues.


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## tirediron (Aug 18, 2018)

Mehh!


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## jcdeboever (Aug 18, 2018)

No me, love my Fujifilm. I would rather spend the money on a 8-16 f2.8 or the 200 f2 or both. Oh heck, I might as well grab the new Over sized XPro 2 medium format with a 32-64 and a 120 macro.


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## Peeb (Aug 18, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> No me, love my Fujifilm. I would rather spend the money on a 8-16 f2.8 or the 200 f2 or both. Oh heck, I might as well grab the new Over sized XPro 2 medium format with a 32-64 and a 120 macro.


Choice would be SO much harder for me if Fuji had full frame. Love my x-t20 for so many things but sometimes I really need the bigger sensor. 

Ironically, having said that I’m intimidated by the medium format!  

D850 or z-mount is current binary choice for me- considering significant investment in nikon glass.


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## jcdeboever (Aug 18, 2018)

Peeb said:


> jcdeboever said:
> 
> 
> > No me, love my Fujifilm. I would rather spend the money on a 8-16 f2.8 or the 200 f2 or both. Oh heck, I might as well grab the new Over sized XPro 2 medium format with a 32-64 and a 120 macro.
> ...


why do you need a bigger sensor? the quality coming out of the XT2,  XP2  are on par and probably better .


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## Peeb (Aug 18, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> > jcdeboever said:
> ...


XT2 has same same sensor as x-t20. My night shots with the D610 are way cleaner. Fuji is beautiful in daylight tho.


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## chuasam (Aug 18, 2018)

I just bought my d850 so I’ll pass. 
I might consider the Z7 mk 2 in a few years.


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## cgw (Aug 18, 2018)

Nikon's obsessed with catching up to Sony. It's apparent they missed the point of MILCs: size and weight savings. If the new bodies sport the same plus-size as their prosumer and pro DSLRs and lenses weigh-in heavy, they've accomplished very little, hype notwithstanding. Looks like they ignored what Fuji pioneered years back. Anticipating Fuji to roll-out a stripped, lower-cost version of the GFX and/or a big-sensor version of the stabilized X-H1. So far, the Nikon MILC project still looks late to the party. A failed, wildly-pricey or glitch-ridden F-mount adapter could mean trouble. Maybe someone will soon breach their NDA and ruin all our fun!


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## Derrel (Aug 18, 2018)

I've been an F-mount Nikon body owner since 1982...a mere 36 years with the F-mount....bought some Canon EF d-slr gear in the early 2000's, still have a couple Canon bodies and a couple lenses...I spent $10,000 on a complete, two-body Canon d-slr system with APS-C and FF Canon models, two L-glass zooms, a handful of Canon primes (85,100 macro, 135-L,135 Soft Focus, 50/1.4, 50/1.8,)...ehhh...half a decade of trying an alternative to the F-mount cameras left me feeling dissatisfied. Changing systems when you have a lot of experience with one, or when you have a lot of equipment in one system, can seem like a lateral move, or even a downgrade. As to the poll response: likely to NOT buy, at least until the used units start hitting the market at low,low prices, so...two years after introduction, when people are trading inthe first-generation models, I might consider picking up a Z-mount body.

How well the F-mount adapter functions might be the deciding factor for me, and for many other long-time Nikon users.

Being "late to the party" is not a big problem for Nikon. Canon is also late to the party. Pentax is late to the party. Mirrorless cameras from Sony are attracting a fair number of early adopter types, but being deliberately LATE to the party can be a good thing; SAMSUNG, for example, has made its fortunes on deliberately being one of the LAST to enter multiple electronic market segments. Samsung's strategy is to wait, look at the competition, see the pitfalls and problems, and to engineer the best-in-class items, based on the success/failures of other companies and their entries in the market. Will Nikon do the same as Samsung has done for years? I do not think so,actually, but hey...Nikon's had pretty good success at making some fine,fine cameras, over many decades. The Nikon F, F2, F3, FE-2, 8008s,N90s,F100,D1,D1h,D3x, D4,D5,D500,D800,D850 have all been "best in class" camera models..more than a dozen camera models they pioneered, and which had huge success.

I dunno...let's see what Nikon has learned/borrowed/imitated from the cameras that have come before. Being late to the party, as cgw says? Not a big deal, really. But let's see...there have been some flops from Nikon...N6006, Df, D2x,etc..


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## enezdez (Aug 18, 2018)

Currently, I own both a Nikon D850 & a Fuji X-Pro2...I love the classic look of the "rangefinder" style of the X-Pro 2. If Nikon makes a Sony style (which apparently that's what they are doing) mirror-less, the answer is a resounding NO!!! But If they make a retro looking Nikon Rangefinder then ABSOLUTELY YES!!! Something like the Nikon S3 and make it better than the Fuji X-Pro 2 would be awesome...just saying!   

Cheers,

Enezdez


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## Designer (Aug 18, 2018)

Peeb said:


> Or,... something else.  What say you?


Can't afford it.


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## SquarePeg (Aug 18, 2018)

I’m still honeymooning with Fuji so I’m a pass.  If I buy any other body in the next few years it will be one of the small but pricey a fixed lens zooms for traveling super light/inconspicuous.  Likely a Sony or Fuji.


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## mrca (Aug 18, 2018)

It is an unknown quantity  so I can't answer.  But I buy gear when mine no longer performs what I need or there is something substantially better.  I have a d850 and am open if it is significantly better but with limited glass that right away is a draw back. I keep hearing it is lighter.  What a couple of pounds total? I tell folks what Tony Soprano told Pussy?  You might want to consider eating a few more salads.  Loose 5 lbs and carry a camera that doesn't compromise image quality or performance.


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## Destin (Aug 19, 2018)

cgw said:


> Nikon's obsessed with catching up to Sony. It's apparent they missed the point of MILCs: size and weight savings. If the new bodies sport the same plus-size as their prosumer and pro DSLRs and lenses weigh-in heavy, they've accomplished very little, hype notwithstanding.



I disagree. MILCs are about MUCH more than weight savings. They perform better in many ways and have features that wouldn’t be possible in a DSLR. 

Sony has been massively successful with MILCs that are as big/heavy as a DSLR (and lenses that are bigger than their DSLR equivalents in many cases) because the bodies have so many high tech features. 

Personally, I prefer my camera system to have a certain amount of size and weight to it. I find it very easy and natural to shoot with my D810 because it’s increased size and weight actually makes it easier to hold steady and get a secure grip on it when compared to my X-T20, which is pretty much too small (and has poor ergonomics) to comfortably hand hold.


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## Derrel (Aug 19, 2018)

Destin said:


> cgw said:
> 
> 
> > Nikon's obsessed with catching up to Sony. It's apparent they missed the point of MILCs: size and weight savings. If the new bodies sport the same plus-size as their prosumer and pro DSLRs and lenses weigh-in heavy, they've accomplished very little, hype notwithstanding.
> ...



I have to agree with this, the idea that the MILC  (Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera) concept is not only about size savings and weight savings compared to the DSLR camera style. Leica's huge and heavy SL mirrorless is a big, weighty camera, with large,heavy lenses, and the Sony A7-series has lenses that are full-sized,heavy,and good. Fuji's X-series has some relatively large,weighty longer zoom lenses. In fact,  here is not much,if any, weight savings once one gets into the longer focal length zooms for MILC systems. A lot of the idea that MILC cameras offer smaller,lighter lenses is mostly from early days hyperbole from the micro 4/3 system.  On APS-C and FF sized MILC cameras, the lenses are, surprise,surprise, as big and as heavy, or heavier, than  the lenses for DSLR systems.

I think cgw was referring to,mostly, the early MILC concept systems, those that  used the 2.0x FOV sensor, AKA the m4/3 mirrorless bodies. Sony's A7 series, and Leica's SL, with 24x36mm size sensors, are geared mostly to high-tech features and high performance, and of course, the full-frame 24x36mm sensor size, with LARGE, heavy lenses, with fast, cutting-edge f/stop levels, not slow-aperture lens speeds with variable maximum apertures. There is the small-sensor, m4/3 idea, but there is also a design idea within the MILC segment that saving weight is not the priority, the priority is pro-level optical performance,and high-end body features.

Costly camera bodies and lenses, the types of goods that appeal to people who buy costly camera bodies and lenses, have to deliver high-end performance--and that is the "new mirrorless" idea, not saving size and saving weight, but high-end performance. Nikon's not trying to go after the Panasonic and Olympus, tiny-camera segment, they're aiming bigger, and aiming for higher-priced cameras and lenses,at least with the new Z-mount models they'll introduce within a week.


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## Peeb (Aug 19, 2018)

I agree with everybody that the adapter is crucial.  I've got much more tied up in glass than in bodies.  

I bought a fuji APS-C mirrorless (X-T20) for travel and kicking around, and it it a sweet little rig- but the adapter strips away my AF and VR on my nikkor lenses.  You lose EXIF too, which is unfortunate.


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## cgw (Aug 19, 2018)

Dunno, maybe I own too many camera systems, each bought to sort out limitations of the others. My expectations of each seem reasonable to me but don't exceed what I know they can do well.

With respect, Derrel needs to spend some time with current Fuji X cameras and their primes, especially the Fujicron trio. Same goes for the X100T/F. I value the mobility and privacy they bring to my photography. Fujinon zooms simply don't suit my style. I'm not sensing any compromise in my approach--and it's hardly the case I don't know what I'm missing, either. I've seen a few too many friends and acquaintances buy into Fuji, many of them decades-long Nikon faithful. What I think you're missing is that for me, Fuji cameras and lenses are complements to--and not substitutes for--the Nikons I use.

That's really where I see potential problems for Nikon if the new systems appears to many as expensive diversions from what already works with no compelling technical advances to tempt them. They're also selling into a shrinking market that doesn't allow much room for error. Hopefully, Nikon realizes it needs to replenish a bit of brand equity and will deliver products that do just that. We'll see soon enough.


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## Peeb (Aug 19, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> I’m still honeymooning with Fuji so I’m a pass.  If I buy any other body in the next few years it will be one of the small but pricey a fixed lens zooms for traveling super light/inconspicuous.  Likely a Sony or Fuji.


You're getting such amazing images out of that X-T2, why WOULD you look elsewhere? 

I would need to ebay the x-t2o, in addition to my D610 to fund a new 'z' camera.  Logically, it's an easy call if the z-mount lives up to the hopes, but emotionally, I would really miss the little fuji-that-could.  Such a fun and cool piece of kit.


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## Derrel (Aug 19, 2018)

cgw said:


> Dunno, maybe I own too many camera systems, each bought to sort out limitations of the others. My expectations of each seem reasonable to me but don't exceed what I know they can do well.
> 
> With respect, Derrel needs to spend some time with current Fuji X cameras and their primes, especially the Fujicron trio. Same goes for the X100T/F. I value the mobility and privacy they bring to my photography. Fujinon zooms simply don't suit my style. I'm not sensing any compromise in my approach--and it's hardly the case I don't know what I'm missing, either. I've seen a few too many friends and acquaintances buy into Fuji, many of them decades-long Nikon faithful. What I think you're missing is that for me, Fuji cameras and lenses are complements to--and not substitutes for--the Nikons I use.
> 
> That's really where I see potential problems for Nikon if the new systems appears to many as expensive diversions from what already works with no compelling technical advances to tempt them. They're also selling into a shrinking market that doesn't allow much room for error. Hopefully, Nikon realizes to needs to replenish a bit of brand equity and will deliver products that do just that. We'll see soon enough.



With respect, Sony has taken over the #1 sales in the full-frame market for 2018. Where the high-dollar sales are, in Full Frame sized cameras. Not in lower-priced bodies, but in bodies that,with one zoom, retail in the $2,000 to $5,200 price range.

takes #1 sales spot with mirrorless - Google Search

Sony Is Number One In Full Frame, Owns Mirrorless Market - Sony Mirrorless Pro

https://petapixel.com/2018/08/15/sony-is-now-1-in-full-frame-cameras-in-the-us/

Nikon is a camera maker and camera seller. Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic are what some people call "hobby business" camera and lens makers that have very tiny sales volumes (and are part of much larger overall corporate parents that can handle the expenses of camera production),compared against Canon and Nikon, whose monthly d-slr sales unit sales are close to or exceeding the yearly sales totals of other, smaller camera makers. What "Nikon" needs to do has zero to do with what I need to do, or what any other private individual photographer needs to do; Nikon, a company, needs to survive, and they want to start with high-prestiege,high-dollar, high-Yen cameras in this segment.

Nikon's options would be to comptete against the Little-sensor Fuji,Panasonic,or Olympus crop-body mirrorless at low retail prices, or to compete against a high-dollar, $5,196 one-zoom body and 24-70mm lens Sony A7r III kit type offerings. THIS IS THE SEGMENT Nikon is targeting wth the launch of two, full-frame mirrorless bodies.._.targeting the leading FF seller, not the small-volume sellers like Fuji or Panasonic or Olympus_. I think they are trying to counter the Sony hype that we see so much these days.

Sony Alpha a7R III Mirrorless Digital Camera with 24-70mm Lens

Fuji's X-series crop-body cameras and one-lens kits are retailing in the $1,000-$1,794 range.Fujifilm X Series Mirrorless Cameras | B&H Photo Video

I think that Nikon wants to sell cameras and one-lens kits that will go head to head with $5,200 Sony A7r-series kits. Not crop-body kits. They have that APS-C niche well-sewn up with the D3300 and D3400 and D5xxx series bodies.


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## Derrel (Aug 19, 2018)

Look at it this way: Nikon decided not to try to beat Fuji at the X-series game...Fuji is very strong in that niche. Nikon decided to take on Sony, in the Full Frame game. Two different market segments. It makes no sense to try to enter a market that your corporate resources make your company ill-suited for.


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## Jeff G (Aug 20, 2018)

I would love to have one, but at my skill level it would be silly, and according to my budget it would be even sillier. But if I win the lottery I'm down with it.


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## greybeard (Aug 20, 2018)

Being the tech nerd that I am, I'll probably end up with one.   Nikon has the rep of keeping lens mount as backward compatible as possible.  I would be very disappointed if the coming lens adapter isn't fully compatible with at least AF-S lenses.  That would really be the deal breaker for me.


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## MartinCrabtree (Aug 20, 2018)

If it would allow me to sell photos for a living just by the purchase. Otherwise I'm content with my F mount Nikons. Rather spend money going to great places to photograph.


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## Peeb (Aug 23, 2018)

OP is now edited to add this link:  Nikon strikes back at Sony with first full-frame mirrorless cameras

I would have preferred 2 card slots, and it appears that the adapter may cost extra (?), which would be disappointing.  Other than that, the Z6 looks just about spot-on perfect if it performs according to the published specs.

Really impressed, so far.


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## Jeff15 (Aug 23, 2018)

Nikon has left their entry into this market too late.


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## PropilotBW (Aug 23, 2018)

I don’t think so.  I think there will be a lot of interest.   DSLRs will eventually become a thing of the past.  They’re only planning for the future of mirrorless technology to replace what they have.   I think it’s a good move.


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## Tim Tucker 2 (Aug 23, 2018)

The biggest problem with SLRs is the compromise in lens design.

The biggest problem with the Z mount is that the lenses haven't been developed yet.

As to the rest of it, if my D600 packs up I will certainly move to a higher res sensor, and I will certainly move to a Z7 simply because of the promise of far less compromised lens design.

The rest of the bells and whistles don't interest me in the slightest. To me they are simply layers of automation, technical solutions. And as technical solutions are prone to do, they provide technical solutions and not creative ones.

An example, all this high ISO photography and AF modes. It used to be with the restrictions of film that low light photography produced all sorts of problems that resulted in odd effects and the imaginative use of such could lead to some very creative images. Now we can take the same image as we do in daylight and the tendency is for us to do so. The failings of film are seen as failings to be avoided and the digital image of *high IQ/capture the best information/add imagination by way of automated algorithms later* is the goal in all situations. And if we start with similar images we nearly always end up with similar end results...

Really are cameras are being automated to take photos with the same reference of *desired output* for all situations in auto modes, to produce similar photos in all situations, (_look what happens these days, when we compare cameras we specify that we use *equivalent* photos, they must be the same for it to be a valid comparison. But all we're doing is comparing image IQ, I don't think anybody sees the actual images they're taking when we compare cameras anymore..._).

This is a bit of a loss for photography, and probably why quite a few are turning back to film these days.

I don't mind if the camera's locked in aperture priority/base ISO, as long as I can turn the AF off I'll be happy.

P.s. As far as the EVF/OVF argument goes, we're human, experts at adapting. So I'll adapt... Besides the cameras that I've used that give the most accurate preview of the finished 2D image are LF because of the size of the glass screen. All OVF cameras fail to show clearly the distortion of perspective/distance that you see in a finished image, especially when using UWA lenses...


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## astroNikon (Aug 23, 2018)

Jeff15 said:


> Nikon has left their entry into this market too late.


Yes, definitely.
But with camera's it's never too late.  Now it's up to the marketing machine to make it successful.
Of course, they still have to fill in the lower aspect of the line of mirrorless cameras all the way down to the $350 APS-C kit line.

I do think it's very interesting how they went to In-Body image stabilization.


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## jcdeboever (Aug 23, 2018)

I'm sure Sony will come out with their 100th version of the A7 in a week or two. On a side note, the ergonomics of the Nikon look way better than Sony. When I was looking to buy the Fuji system, I held the A7 and I immediately knew it wasn't for me. Same thing with the fuji XT20. That's another thing important to me, how does it fit in my hands.


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## coastalconn (Aug 23, 2018)

Has anyone seen buffer specs on Z6 yet.  I'm certainly intrigued.  I really hate how small it is though. Balance will be crappy with my 500 F4 and 300 f2.8...  Wondering what real world battery life will be also...


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## jcdeboever (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> Has anyone seen buffer specs on Z6 yet.  I'm certainly intrigued.  I really hate how small it is though. Balance will be crappy with my 500 F4 and 300 f2.8...  Wondering what real world battery life will be also...



battery life is like 350 images. only one card slot, that really stinks. Personally,  if I were you, I would physically look at the mount on the camera. Big heavy glass can be a scary thing (for me anyway) on a mirrorless body. 9 FPS on the Z7 and 12 on the Z6. I am ultra careful handling my XT2 and the 100-400. I may be a little over cautious but it us better to be careful IMO.


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## Destin (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> Has anyone seen buffer specs on Z6 yet.  I'm certainly intrigued.  I really hate how small it is though. Balance will be crappy with my 500 F4 and 300 f2.8...  Wondering what real world battery life will be also...



I haven’t seen any buffer specs, but I’m watching closely. 

I haven’t even seen a price for the z7 yet.


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## zulu42 (Aug 23, 2018)

Destin said:


> I haven’t even seen a price for the z7 yet.



$3396.95 body only or 3996.95 with the 24-70 f/4


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## zulu42 (Aug 23, 2018)

z6 $1996.95 or $2596.95
per Adorama advert


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## coastalconn (Aug 23, 2018)

Well the Z7 appears to be crippled with buffer.  23 in 12 bit and 18 in 14 bit. Also drops to 5.5 FPS with AF and AE.  So that certainly is no D850 replacement..  They are hiding the buffer for some reason on the Z6...


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## chuasam (Aug 23, 2018)

I kinda want the Z7 for the IBIS


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## SquarePeg (Aug 23, 2018)

Only 1 card slot?  That’s a deal breaker for me - not that I was in the hunt to begin with but just one card slot is what kept me from going with the cheaper XT20 when I moved to Fuji and it would stop me here as well. No redundancy so a failed card and your day of shooting is wasted?  No option to shoot raw on one card and jpeg on another?


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## Destin (Aug 23, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> Only 1 card slot?  That’s a deal breaker for me - not that I was in the hunt to begin with but just one card slot is what kept me from going with the cheaper XT20 when I moved to Fuji and it would stop me here as well. No redundancy so a failed card and your day of shooting is wasted?  No option to shoot raw on one card and jpeg on another?



This. This is the biggest problem with it. It's supposed to be a professional body and they crippled it. 

Part of me thinks that it has to be because they're going to announce a higher end more professional body and they're reserving the dual card slots for that camera body. But on the other hand, at $3400 for the Z7, how much higher end can they realistically go in the current MILC market?

I'm definitely confused.


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## coastalconn (Aug 23, 2018)

Destin said:


> SquarePeg said:
> 
> 
> > Only 1 card slot?  That’s a deal breaker for me - not that I was in the hunt to begin with but just one card slot is what kept me from going with the cheaper XT20 when I moved to Fuji and it would stop me here as well. No redundancy so a failed card and your day of shooting is wasted?  No option to shoot raw on one card and jpeg on another?
> ...



D6?  That would be higher end, but it couldn't be a D and Z6 is already taken I actually don't care about the single card slot. I only keep an XQD in my D500 anyways..  This missing buffer specs on the Z6 sure have me bewildered though..


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## Destin (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > SquarePeg said:
> ...




Maybe it's an oversight? The Z6 seems an awful lot like the MILC version of the D500. If it has a small buffer I'll be SHOCKED because there is no reason for it to. 

I'm still sitting here trying to figure out if I want a D850 or a Z7.


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## Tim Tucker 2 (Aug 23, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> Only 1 card slot?  That’s a deal breaker for me - not that I was in the hunt to begin with but just one card slot is what kept me from going with the cheaper XT20 when I moved to Fuji and it would stop me here as well. No redundancy so a failed card and your day of shooting is wasted?  No option to shoot raw on one card and jpeg on another?



I understand your concerns, but as I posted on another forum I also don't understand. Pro's won't buy this initial release:

_"Now who will buy this, pros? I can't see pros dumping their D850s, D5s and D750s so they can use their existing lenses through an adaptor. There's no gain, no advantage in the finished image, not until the new lenses are developed. Ones now free of the restrictions that have probably hampered any further real gain in the F mount_."

Nikon can and will design a *Z* with two card slots, but it might've been deemed an unnecessary expense for a camera aimed initially at hobbyists with a target release price.

But here is my other response posted elsewhere, (and not aimed at anybody here so to be taken as general comment):

_"So lets understand revolutionary. Can you tell from an image if the camera has a frame rate of 5fps or 8fps? Can you tell if it has a mirror or not?

If it has one card slot or two?

So if the images are the same then how is it revolutionary?

A lot of questions, and a few more.

Do you understand what the Z mount means? 55mm diameter and no mirror. This removes a *LOT* of restrictions on lens design.

So the final two questions...

Given that if Nikon fulfil the opportunity to realise the potential of the new mount, (which they probably will), and the specs of the new lenses exceed anything that they currently have on the market, just how much research and development do you think they will put into the F mount, and consequently DSLRs in general?

Final question...

Do you still not think this is revolutionary, or are you still looking at the specs for the automated features and the number of card slots in the initial release?

Bravo Nikon for making a bold move_."

Again the tone was not aimed at yourself. Basically they've dumped the need for compatibility with lenses they no longer support and will soon reduce in number as they slowly die (but not legacy MF). It is this, the F mount, that restricts development. The old MF will still work as will the current lens line up, but how relevant will they become when compared to lenses designed with a 55mm mount and no mirror?

Also, although my camera has two slots I've only ever used one card in the 6 years I've had it. I've never had a problem. It's a pro concern not a hobbyist's one.  ;-)


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## shadowlands (Aug 23, 2018)

Not me. Not now. Later when the prices drop big time for used, maybe then. Still love my D800 and it's two card slots.


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## greybeard (Aug 23, 2018)

If I go for one (probably a D6) it won't be until Christmas 19.  By that time any bugs should have surfaced and should be corrected.


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## BrentC (Aug 23, 2018)

chuasam said:


> I kinda want the Z7 for the IBIS




Only 3-axis not 5.   Also if using a VR lens it will use 1-axis from the body and 2-axis from the lens.


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## coastalconn (Aug 23, 2018)

BrentC said:


> chuasam said:
> 
> 
> > I kinda want the Z7 for the IBIS
> ...


All the press material says 5 axis..


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## astroNikon (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> BrentC said:
> 
> 
> > chuasam said:
> ...


other online stuff talks about the various conditions, albeit briefly.


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## BrentC (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> BrentC said:
> 
> 
> > chuasam said:
> ...



You are right.   The one article I got that from seem to have made a mistake.


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## BrentC (Aug 23, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> BrentC said:
> 
> 
> > chuasam said:
> ...



Reading a bit more it looks like only 3-axis with adapter.


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## astroNikon (Aug 23, 2018)

Nikon Z6 and Z7 - New Nikon Z Series Mirrorless Cameras


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## Braineack (Aug 23, 2018)

being able to get any VR out of your older non-VR lenses is a nice little feature.


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## ac12 (Aug 23, 2018)

N0w that we have prices, and can match them up to existing D750 and 850, the Z6 is one that I could afford, but only with a cash back or sale.
So in reality, a D750 (on sale) or used D810 is what is in the cards for me.


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## ac12 (Aug 23, 2018)

Braineack said:


> being able to get any VR out of your older non-VR lenses is a nice little feature.



I put my 500 f/8 mirror on my Olympus E-M1, and was surprised at how much the IBIS stabilized the lens.
I could actually aim the lens without it shaking all over the place.
A 500mm lens on a m4/3 camera is 20x magnification, or like handholding a 1,000mm lens on your FF camera.


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## dxqcanada (Aug 23, 2018)

Ok, I am trying to wrap my brain around this new Nikon mirrorless ... is it that much better than what they currently have in their DSLR line ?
As a Sony user, I have been bombarded by info (Sony people tend to be very defensive) ... but I am not sure what real advantage Nikon users would get out of this ... am I missing something ?


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## Destin (Aug 23, 2018)

dxqcanada said:


> Ok, I am trying to wrap my brain around this new Nikon mirrorless ... is it that much better than what they currently have in their DSLR line ?
> As a Sony user, I have been bombarded by info (Sony people tend to be very defensive) ... but I am not sure what real advantage Nikon users would get out of this ... am I missing something ?



Smaller form factor/lighter body

In body image stabilization. 

EVF. 

Focus Peaking - easier to use old MF lenses


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## Derrel (Aug 23, 2018)

I liked the pictures dPreview posted in their first look. Looks good at high ISO under dark/night conditions. The 24-70mm f/4 S-series lens is very compact; dPreview mentioned it was "collapsible"...but I did not see any details regarding that, but again, the 24-70mm f/4 S-series lens is VERY compact,especially compared against the massive 24-70 f/2.8 model for F-mount bodies.

The upcoming 14mm-30mm f/4 S-series lens looked impressive in their photo. Wow...14mm to 30mm in one zoom lens! Those are basically ALL of the wide-angle focal lengths of the past 40 years! From 14mm ultra-wide, to 16mm and 17mm, to 20 and 21mm, and 24mm,25mm, and 28mm, the zoom has eight of the traditional single focal length wide-angle options in it, plus 30mm. Nice!

The dPreview article mentioned that the Z7's viewfinder is so bright and clear that after using it for a few hours, the reviewer found it kind of difficult to go back to the D850's viewfinder. High praise for the eye-level viewfinder system of the Z7.

Although it's early, as in Day One for this newly-announced Z7 model, it appears that Nikon has managed to design a pretty good camera. One card slot? That used to be the norm...the last pro camera I bought with a single card slot was the $5,000 D2x, in May of 2005. I've not had a solid-state memory card fail since 2001. I do not see the single XQD card slot as a deal-breaker, but I'm actually much more-disappointed to see the card format be XQD and not SD. Buuuut...for a camera with 45MP and 9FPS, plus high-definition video, XQD is a very,very fast-writing memory card format.

Looks like Nikon managed to get this camera pretty well-sorted. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. The price ($250 adapter only, or $250 less a $100 rebate with camera purchase initially),and features, of the FTZ F-mount to Z-mount lens adapter, pretty surprising.


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## coastalconn (Aug 23, 2018)

Destin said:


> dxqcanada said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I am trying to wrap my brain around this new Nikon mirrorless ... is it that much better than what they currently have in their DSLR line ?
> ...


You just listed 2 of the biggest turn offs for me.. smaller /lighter body and EVF.  IBIS would be great with my pre VR 300 F2.8 though.  Focus peaking, meh...

I hope everyone falls in love with the Z7 though and used D850s start showing up for 2k, then I would be a huge fan of mirrorless...


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## Destin (Aug 24, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > dxqcanada said:
> ...



I thought I would absolutely hate the EVF.. and for what you shoot I would hate it. The lag would make fast action extremely difficult. 

But the EVF is incredible for slower paced shooting. I love the WSIYWYG concept, and being able to review images inside the viewfinder is amazing. 

I agree that smaller and lighter isn’t ideal for your type of shooting. But for someone like me who is starting to get into backpacking into remote areas for landscape photos, the Z7 is tempting because it saves some weight and space in my pack compared to my D810, but retains the image quality.


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## ac12 (Aug 24, 2018)

EVF have pros and cons.
Pro

You can see what the final exposure will be BEFORE you press the shutter.  This is very helpful in difficult lighting.
With my dslr, I have to correct AFTER the shot and do a 2nd shot, and hope that I corrected enough, or I have to repeat the correct and shoot cycle until I get a good pix.

It has an almost "night vision" option (on my EM1) where you can boost the illumination and almost see in the dark.
Not useful to all, but might be to some.
I shot flash in a dim room back in the film days, where I could barely see the subject.  Because it was so dark, focus was hit or miss.
No optical viewfinder can compete with light enhanced EVF, when shooting in dim/dark conditions.

Con

If you use a flash, you may have to reconfigure the EVF.
If the refresh rate is not high enough, there is visual lag in the EVF, which makes action shooting difficult.
The refresh rate is configurable on the EM1.  It can be raised, but at the cost of additional battery drain.

One more thing draining the battery.


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## jcdeboever (Aug 24, 2018)

Those z mount lenses look cheap as heck. That is a big turn off to me.


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## Destin (Aug 24, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Those z mount lenses look cheap as heck. That is a big turn off to me.



I don’t know if they look cheap to me, but they certainly don’t look like a typical Nikon product. They have a very polished look reminiscent of something song or Tamron would put out. 

My bigger problem is the price. $700 for a 50 1.8?


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## Designer (Aug 24, 2018)

I don't know why so many people were expecting a professional camera.  

Was it the hype?  

Lots of hype before any concrete specifications were announced led many people to ASSUME it was going to be a "professional grade" camera system.  

What the new "Z" system is, in fact, is a "prosumer" grade system.  

We will have to wait a while before we see any actual professional body using the Z mount.


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## mrca (Aug 24, 2018)

Who made the sensor.  Someone told me last week there has been recent news that Tower Jazz was not the manufacturer of the 850 sensor but nikon did themselves.   Is nikon still buying sensors from Sony that they are obviously going head to head with on mirrorless?


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## greybeard (Aug 24, 2018)

Designer said:


> I don't know why so many people were expecting a professional camera.
> 
> Was it the hype?
> 
> ...


Yes, it is "prosumer" grade in the sense that the D850/D750 are also "prosumer".


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## Designer (Aug 24, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Yes, it is "prosumer" grade in the sense that the D850/D750 are also "prosumer".


As you wish.  

The new "Z" cameras cannot compete with the D850, and if the D750 was as good as it should have been, then not that one, either.  

IMO


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## Derrel (Aug 24, 2018)

I agree that the D 800 series models are all "prosumer" type bodies--and excellent ones at that. For decades the Nikon that many people want to shoot has been a high-end prosumer camera. The Nikon FE-2 was a better camera than the F3, in many ways. I owned both at the same time, and preferred the FE-2 for a lot of assignments. The Nikon D4 was the pro model when the D 800 was current, and the D 800 is a vastly better camera in some ways, but it's not as rugged and probably will not last as long as the D4.


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## Derrel (Aug 24, 2018)

One has to ask how can a pro model like the D4 with 16 million pixels be "pro", when the high end amateur camera (the D 800) had 36 million pixels, and better image quality?


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## mrca (Aug 24, 2018)

850 is "prosumer?"  It dusts the flagships in most areas.    Just took a look at the mirroless and looks like the same sensor.  That sensor blows me away.  Did a studio shoot with it and zeiss  lenses and the combination is amazing.  I like the built in vr.  Does it work with older lenses.    Lens useability is more important to me than any thing I see in it different than the 850.  Same price as  850 with battery pack. Like many of the older shooters, I wasn't adverse to leaving film after 25 years and I have no need to have a pentaprism.  So long as it works for my shooting.  I see folks talking about wysiwyg.  Yeah, if you shoot jpeg.  I expect it is a jpeg and the clipping points are not precisely what you have.  Just looked at specs,  850 is 12 ounces heavier plus add battery pack probably a lb or so difference.  So much for a weight argument.    Lenses may be lighter.  I don't see a vertical grip available at least yet. That's a deal breaker for me immediately.


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## Derrel (Aug 24, 2018)

Yes, the D850 is a prosumer camera....a prosumer body is not referring to the quality of the camera: it refers to the BUYER the camera is aimed at. I figured everybody knew that. The prosumer is the BUYER. PRO-fessional con-SUMER, ergo "prosumer".

According to Forbes magazine, prosumers are also, today, in 2018, considered to be __product and brand advocates__.
The original meaning of the word prosumer is the buyer who constantly buys the latest,greatest thing on the market. The prosumer wants the highest-rated specifications...the most megapixels, the latest technical advances, the most-sophisticated features and the widest feature set.

Definiton:
pro·sum·er
prōˈso͞omər/
_noun_

1. 
an amateur who purchases equipment with quality or features suitable for professional use.
"the magazine is aimed at the prosumer who uses a $10,000 camera to make home movies of his dog.

******

A lot of people get butt-hurt when their favorite camera is described as a prosumer model, but there's the flagship level cameras from Canon and Nikon, priced in the $8,000 to $5,000 range historically, and there are the high-end consumer AKA prosumer cameras, at around $3499 to $2900 or so at introduction.

The term prosumer means something. It's not a bad thing. The prosumer wants ALL of the latest bells and whistles,and he or she wants to buy whatever is new, exciting, and which exemplifies the latest technology and latest efforts of the brand. The professional consumer, the prosumer, will buy a new item as soon as it is available, and will often advocate and talk about their purchase on-line and to others, and will try to influence other people to see the value of their latest equipment purchase. 

Working professionals, now a very small minority in the photo world, often have MUCH less-fancy, more-outdated, and often beat-up and worn equipment that they know how to use, and which the typical prosumer would describe as obsolescent, outdated, or old-style. Note that Nikon flagship cameras now LAG behind the prosumer, high-end enthusiast, and entry-level models in megapixel counts. One group values bragging rights much more so than the other group.

The Nikon D3s is still a fairly popular camera with working photojournalists, as is the now-outdated D4 and D4s pair, and the D5 is the current flagship. The D800,D810 series, and the D850 are all cameras aimed at "prosumers": both the professional consumer/constant upgraders, and the* people who advocate for the company, and the brand, and the model, on-line.*

This definiton of prosumer, the band-advocate type of prosumer, has been around for almost a decade.The Shift from CONsumers to PROsumers

See this Forbes article from 2010, describing what a prosumer does:

"_The term “prosumer” has transformed from meaning “professional consumer” to meaning “product and brand advocate.” Rather than simply “consuming” products, people are becoming the voices of those products and significantly impacting the success or failure of companies, products, and brands, particularly through their involvement on the social web_."

Again..."prosumer" is not a put-down...it's a very specific thing. The prosumer market segment is like free advertising, and free on-line promotion. Now that YouTube has become a huge marketing field world-wide, the camera makers recognize the need to get prosumers to make advocacy videos, as well as to blog about their prosumer-oriented equipment. The camera makers design and sell cameras for prosumers, and professionals, and serious amateurs,as well as for everybody in-between.


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## pixmedic (Aug 24, 2018)

the "professional" models for nikon and canon have always been well defined and separated from the other models. 
the term "prosumer" while not new, has only semi recently been adopted (and even hyped) by camera companies. 
Nikons PRO line has always been single digit. D3, D4, D5...weather sealed, built in vertical grip, more metal in the chassis, higher FPS, etc etc. 
these cameras were specifically aimed at professional photographers that actually NEEDED those features (not just WANT them)
the more consumer based models have traditionally lacked many of those features.  at some point over the years the camera companies have recognized
the growing number of more serious enthusiasts and have designed and marketed some higher end cameras to cater to that group, such as the D800 series, and even the D750/D500. these are not really "pro" cameras though, if only in the sense that they simply are not designed and made to the same specs as cameras like the D5. if you look at the starting price of the single digit nikon PRO bodies compared to the others, you can see the difference. on ebay right now you can get a new D850 for ~$3k+, while a new D5 will set you back ~$5k for a 20 MP camera vs a 45 mp camera.


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

OP now edited to show a review that says the Z7 is SPECTACULAR, and another review that says that the Z7 FAILS BADLY.

My take (still base solely on what I have read) is that Nikon finally arrived to market (thank goodness), but they started development on this too late, aimed towards the immediate past instead of the immediate future, and failed to properly identify their customer (or more likely crippled this release to save DSLR sales). 

Too late:  the specs seem to have targeted sony from one generation ago.  Maybe a firmware update can bump things along, who knows.

Bad customer ID-  focusing on small/light at the expense of 2 cards was folly.  Were you trying to EXCLUDE professional shooters and serious amateurs?  You will never see one of theses cameras at a wedding shoot.  The rationale was that small-body was more important than 2 slots.  Really?  That's who is dropping $3,400 on a camera- vacation shooters?

Does that mean I'm OUT?  Not  yet.  I can't forgive the omission of a backup card for critical shots, but the backwards compatibility of F-mount lenses is certainly a powerful lever.  I can't help but think that my money is better spent on a D750 instead of the Z6; it is CLEARLY better spent on the D850 instead of the Z7.

Move me down from 'probably' to 'maybe'- but the purchase would be with reservations (and only on sale).  I would have gladly dropped 2K on a mirrorless D750 with IBIS, and I was CONSIDERING dropping 3.4K if I was presented a mirrorless D850 with IBIS.  I was presented with neither.  It appears that Nikon was actually afraid of folks like me, so they crippled these Z cameras with one slot to be sure that the DSLR sale were not affected.

And that makes me sad- I really REALLY wanted to love these cameras...


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## greybeard (Aug 25, 2018)

Well, now that we have clarified the professional vs prosumer issue, back to these new cameras.   

A lot will depend on how things look through the eye level finder.  I have a Sony A6000 and in a darkened room I love it because it adjusts brightness automatically and keeps things looking bright enough.  But, out of doors in bright sunlight it looks dull and flat (imho) compared to an optical finder.  Hopefully the new Z6-Z7 eye level finder will look more natural out of doors.  

Looks like the lens adapter will work with AF-S only so any screw drive AF-AF.D lenses will be relegated to manual focus only.   

I am not familiar with the XQD card?  What advantage does it have over the 50 or so SD cards I have laying around?

What does this new D6-D7 offer that would make me want to dump my D750?


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Designer said:


> I don't know why so many people were expecting a professional camera.
> 
> Was it the hype?
> 
> ...


Prosumer cameras have 2 slots.  Period.


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Derrel said:


> Yes, the D850 is a prosumer camera....a prosumer body is not referring to the quality of the camera: it refers to the BUYER the camera is aimed at. I figured everybody knew that. The prosumer is the BUYER. PRO-fessional con-SUMER, ergo "prosumer".
> 
> According to Forbes magazine, prosumers are also, today, in 2018, considered to be __product and brand advocates__.
> The original meaning of the word prosumer is the buyer who constantly buys the latest,greatest thing on the market. The prosumer wants the highest-rated specifications...the most megapixels, the latest technical advances, the most-sophisticated features and the widest feature set.
> ...


The Nikon FM was legendary.  And prosumer.  It is not a put-down to be a prosumer camera.  I agree.


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## Destin (Aug 25, 2018)

Peeb said:


> Designer said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know why so many people were expecting a professional camera.
> ...



Eh, I agree to a point. Photographers used single card slots for a lot of years for professional work. It wasn’t until the D7000 came out that prosumer camera’s started seeing dual card slots. 

Did film cameras have a backup roll of film?

I’ve personally never had a card go bad. I don’t know anyone personally who has. 

Anecdotally it seems quite rare. I would absolutely prefer to have two card slots, but that wouldn’t be enough to turn me away from these bodies if they had enough other good features.


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## Donde (Aug 25, 2018)

I would be sorely tempted by the Z7 if it were slightly smaller and slightly lighter than the Sony a7R lll rather than the reverse. I also didn't see any Z mount prime telephoto in the announced future plans.


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Destin said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> > Designer said:
> ...


The first time you have a card die, your opinion will shift 180 degrees.

I had a spectacular series of shots of a buffalo herd in a snowstorm that was simply amazing.  I have a few low-rez images posted to the web, but the original RAW files are lost forever on a dead card.

How do you explain to the bride that you lost all of her wedding shots because you elected to go with the cool EVF instead of the safer dual-slot DSLR?  Shooters with critical needs use 2 slots, or else leave their fate to chance.

Media failure is not an 'if'- it is a 'when'.


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## mrca (Aug 25, 2018)

Interesting,  so it is a marketing term.  Sounds like targeting folks with gobs of disposable income to use on an expensive  camera to take snapshots.  I call them collectors or geeks, not photographers.  I always thought prosumer meant for either professional or high end consumer, straddling that gap.   I am a pro and the 850 fits my work perfectly.  I only  care that my camera does   what I or my clients need.  I used a d700 for 8 years and it is still in use. I guess for along time I was one of those award winning pros who carried  an "obsolete" camera body  but took images even most pros can't do.   I have won professional competions with it and gotten perfect scores with a d200 using one of the 10 worst nikons lenses.     Since a camera is a tool and and overhead for me, I do a cost benefit analysis  and don't up grade camera's unless it makes a difference in what I shoot.  The d850 helped with a 64 optimized iso to get slower shutter speeds outdoors,  somehow focuses when I have a vari nd filter cranked to  8 stops, more dynamic range especially less clipping of highlights, ability to switch between 3:2, 4:5 and 1:1 and not only shows it in the view finder so I can compose and eliminate a cropping step in post, but also reduces the amount saved to the card that I would have thrown away anyway.  I can't tell if the mirrorless has these features.      Also, as a professional, my camera is not the most important piece of gear I use.  It is just an expensive recorder that becomes obsolete in less than 5 years.  It just records light.  I don't remember the Beatles   endlessly concerned about their studio recording gear.  They were more interested in their music.   I'm more interested in the image.  Sorry, won't see me waxing eloquently about it like it's some magical box.  My lenses and lights, especially my cybercommander that allows me to turn light on/off, adjust modeling lamp, adjust power all from my stool,  you'll have to pry that from my cold dead fingers.  It keeps me off of ladders in a dark studio and makes setups and adjustments fast.     I am more interested in what my lenses do.  Then, my lights enable me to achieve my vision.   I don't understand all this hand wringing and"how many angels on the head of a pin" analysis over bodies.  I don't know a single carpenter that does that with his saws.  Must be the "prosumers."


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

mrca said:


> ...  I don't remember the Beatles   endlessly concerned about their studio recording gear.  They were more interested in their music. ...


Ha ha!  Sorry but the Fab Four DID obsess over their gear and recording processes.  George Harrison was thrilled when he finally got a fender stratocaster, and John was fairly legendary for how difficult and relentless he was upon studio crew in demanding that new technologies and techniques be exploited in achieving his artistic vision.  

Your sentiment is fair in that you can get lost in the tech specs and lose sight of your artistic vision, but there is no reason for anyone to apologize for keeping an eye on the state of the art and seeking to use every advantage possible to express his/her artistic POV.


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Donde said:


> I would be sorely tempted by the Z7 if it were slightly smaller and slightly lighter than the Sony a7R lll rather than the reverse. I also didn't see any Z mount prime telephoto in the announced future plans.


Smaller/lighter not that important to me (never felt weighed down with my D610), but a Z-mount telephoto woulda been cool for sure!

I bought an X-T20 to test the theory that a small and light mirrorless would be a paradigm shift, and while it was nice- it was far from a lifestyle change.


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## greybeard (Aug 25, 2018)

Peeb said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > Peeb said:
> ...


Agreed, I think that when Nikon makes a "professional  mirrorless" it will have 2 slots along with a built in vertical grip.  It looks like Nikon is going with a single card on all their prosumer models.  My D7500 only has one slot as well.  They probably would have done this with the D850 but the outrage would have been too great.  Even though the D800 series is labeled as "prosumer" I would venture to guess that it is used more by professionals than amateurs.


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Those z mount lenses look cheap as heck. That is a big turn off to me.


They LOOK cheap but are quite costly. Bad combo.  I’d start with the adapter and my existing glass.

EDIT-not being critical so much as acknowledging economic reality that my large existing investment in glass will have to do unless a really nice “kit” deal pushes me over.


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## photo61 (Aug 25, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > dxqcanada said:
> ...


Now that's some good thinking Kris,Bill C


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## Tim Tucker 2 (Aug 25, 2018)

Donde said:


> I would be sorely tempted by the Z7 if it were slightly smaller and slightly lighter than the Sony a7R lll rather than the reverse. I also didn't see any Z mount prime telephoto in the announced future plans.



Because longer telephoto lenses are not restricted by the mount size, it stands to reason.

The optimal design of anything over say 135mm will place the rear element further forward of the lens mount as to it being inconsequential. The only restriction comes when you shorten it, *telephoto* design. And as you can shorten it as far as you want rather than having to contend with the mount it's reasonable to assume that designers only shorten lenses to a point where the trade-offs becomes an issue. Hence most lenses of 135mm and over are already optimised and can be used via an adaptor.

What I have an issue with is a basic contradiction I see in all these reactions.

You wanted something *revolutionary*, which means you wanted change, something that challenged the status quo. Yet many are complaining because it's not the same as the cameras you're using at the present. In all these threads I'm seeing comments about comparing the automated features of the bodies, how the Z series is not the same, doesn't have the same capabilities, the same layers of automation that you're used to. In comparing the layers of automation in the camera bodies against what you have and complaining because it's not the same you fail to see where it differs. AND if you don't change your approach but demand that everything stays the same there is no revolution, no change. Just more and more precise automation crippling creativity because you aim for technical perfection rather than human intervention. If that's what you want, then fine, buy a Sony. It's bound to the restrictions of old lens design because it still tries to hold a continuity with the past.

If you want a revolutionary design then don't complain because it's not the same as what you've got.

Simples...


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## Braineack (Aug 25, 2018)

What if we wanted revolutionary and they simply failed to deliver?


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Braineack said:


> What if we wanted revolutionary and they simply failed to deliver?


There there is revolutionary to Nikon and then there is revolutionary to the industry.

The former is a win.
The latter- not so much.

Keeping the user interface quite 'nikon' was not optional, so no criticism about that.   That was a really good thing in my book.


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## Derrel (Aug 25, 2018)

Peeb said:
			
		

> The first time you have a card die, your opinion will shift 180 degrees.



I have been waiting since 2001 for a solid state memory card to die. But then, I buy SanDisk cards. Only SanDisk. No other brands. Since 2001, I have owned 10 or 11 d-slrs. I have had the diaphragm stop-down mechanism conk out on my Nikon D1h, which I bought used back in 2004 or so. And I had the mirror literally FALL OFF the mirror frame on my Canon 5D, which used only glue, and no metal clips, to hold the reflex mirror in place.

My "spinning hard drive" from 2001, the IBM Microdrive 1-gigabyte did fail, but then...that's a micro hard drive. Since 2001 I have scooted my desk chair over a SanDisk CF card. I have washed, and dried... three memory cards, one Compact Flash card, and two SD cards. I have stepped on a couple of cards. All SanDisk cards. Still working...

And yet...in 17 years...I have yet to have a solid-state SanDisk memory card fail on me. Either during a shoot, after a shoot, or before a shoot.

The Nikon D1,D1h,and D2x were very expensive pro cameras....had only ONE CF card slot...

I grew up shooting film--which can be screwed up royally at multiple points in the shooting process, or in the developing process. Digital capture is, I would say, ten times LESS-likely to fail. I feel supremely confident in SanDisk memory cards. Film was subject to failures and eff-ups...solid state memory cards...not so much.


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## Derrel (Aug 25, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Those z mount lenses look cheap as heck. That is a big turn off to me.



They look like Sigma's newer ART type lenses, to a degree. Not sure why you think they look "cheap", unless by cheap you mean, "something I am not used to seeing".

The Z-mount lenses I have seen in photos, the 24-70 f/4 and the 14-30mm f/4, look like Sigma ART models; the 58mm f/0.95 Noct-Nikkor is a manual-focusing lens (yes, MF), and looks very "expensive" from the photo I saw.

Regardless, one man's opinion on what looks cheap will not sway many younger people who have no preconceptions about how a lens ought to look. The new lenses look minimalist in design ethos. Instead of cheap, one could just as easily say, "*The Z-mount lenses look modern, and twenty-first century in design ethos*."

Remember East Germany's lens design from the 1970's, with the tacky silver adornments? Yeeesh...


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## Peeb (Aug 25, 2018)

Derrel said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm very pleased that you've gotten on so well, and perhaps if I had always purchased your brand I would sing a different tune, but in my experience, hard drives, memory cards, usb drives, flash drives, floppy discs, CD discs, and all other media can and HAVE failed at one point or another on me, personally.  Every single one of these formats has dumped on me at one time or another.

I certainly did without redundant media when I shot (and still shoot) film.  I certainly did without redundant media when I shot early digital tech.  But in 2018, why in heaven's name would one design a prosumer camera without redundant media after having trained your customer base to expect and rely upon it?

I realize that you find the scenario of failed media to be statistically insignificant, and it IS insignificant until it happens to you.

I pray that it does not.  Be well, friend.


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## Derrel (Aug 25, 2018)

SanDisk.


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## Tim Tucker 2 (Aug 26, 2018)

Braineack said:


> What if we wanted revolutionary and they simply failed to deliver?



But it did indeed give revolutionary...   For me.

Let's be clear, if you live at the the longer end of focal lengths this will offer you nothing. If you're a sports photographer then the rugged build, AF capabilities and lens design of a top DSLR such as a D5 is far better and won't be bettered by ML for a little while yet. If you shoot BIF then there is little better than the D850, this won't change overnight. And again we can only realistically assume it will be equaled because the current D850 is the current pinnacle of development...
If you're an event or wedding photographer then you will have a current set up that delivers results. Change for change's sake makes no sense, especially as it's extra investment for little change in output, (assuming you still use your current lenses), but a change in working practices. I would think that this will bring more uncertainty to your results than the lack of a second card slot.
If you're driven by the technology and seek the revolution in the numbers and specifications, then this will offer you nothing other than to kid yourself that you own a slice at the forefront of creative photography simply because you bought one.

But for me: Who is not at all interested in what the camera can do but what I can do. Who is not interested in technology or the layers of automation that ensure that you always capture something as close to the reference *ultimate* of the cameras capability, in fact I switch most of it off and don't even own an AF lens. Who is interested in the images rather than the camera...

Then this is revolutionary because it addresses what I see as the compromises of basic SLR design. Why I still use my PC55/3.5 and PC 105/2.5 despite their shortcomings compared to modern lenses. Yes modern lenses have noticeably more resolution and better coatings, but the search for this and to satisfy the consumer with numbers the need for faster lenses also exposes the flaws in the system, (not micro-b-b-bubbles and other 3D pop nonsense ). My one concession is a Milvus 35/2 because the legacy MF wide angles are universally quite poor, but it still shows the traits and flaws of SLR lens design that have stopped my investing thousands. I don't need to invest, so I'd rather stick with and work around the levels of flare than the distortion.

For the first time I'm interested in a new camera, the Z7. It does so much of what I want and addresses the issues I have with DSLRs while still keeping the core concepts and ethos as to why I think the 35mm format is so compelling and unique.

This is as well as stop down metering without the darkening in the viewfinder and the promise of more useful manual focussing aids...

To me this is my revolution, I'm both too excited and too poor at the moment. But I want one and hopefully will get it in the not too distant future.


----------



## Derrel (Aug 26, 2018)

One thought occurs to me. Possibly, this mirrorless pair of Z7 and then Z6, is designed simply to stem the tide of what Thom Hogan calls "switchers". With the apparently well-designed ZTF adapter, users can plop on over 360 Nikkor lens models and have full compatibility. With the adapter, another large number of both screw-driven AF models, and even more manual focus models lens models, can be used. 

With Sony's Full Frame camera sales numbers recently taking the number one position in some markets, bettering both Canon and Nikon in both unit sales and dollar amounts earned, maybe Nikon thinks that having a very viable mirrorless camera pair can derail Sony's train a little bit.

With Nikon's long history of F-mount cameras, Nikon users can shoot film, digital-SLR both APS-C and FX,and mirrorless full-frame (FX), all using F-mount lenses. If the Z-mount mirrorless system really takes off, sales for other brands will likely be impacted very much. The market for cameras doesn't seem to be expanding, so, any way to get sales, while denying sales opportunities for competing companies, seems like a long-term survival strategy.


----------



## Peeb (Aug 26, 2018)

Derrel said:


> One thought occurs to me. Possibly, this mirrorless pair of Z7 and then Z6, is designed simply to stem the tide of what Thom Hogan calls "switchers". With the apparently well-designed ZTF adapter, users can plop on over 360 Nikkor lens models and have full compatibility. With the adapter, another large number of both screw-driven AF models, and even more manual focus models lens models, can be used.
> 
> With Sony's Full Frame camera sales numbers recently taking the number one position in some markets, bettering both Canon and Nikon in both unit sales and dollar amounts earned, maybe Nikon thinks that having a very viable mirrorless camera pair can derail Sony's train a little bit.
> 
> With Nikon's long history of F-mount cameras, Nikon users can shoot film, digital-SLR both APS-C and FX,and mirrorless full-frame (FX), all using F-mount lenses. If the Z-mount mirrorless system really takes off, sales for other brands will likely be impacted very much. The market for cameras doesn't seem to be expanding, so, any way to get sales, while denying sales opportunities for competing companies, seems like a long-term survival strategy.


 I think this is precisely the goal of these cameras: to minimize the Switchers.  I think that this was my frustration: they seem to be cameras that are designed strategically rather than photographically.   The sense I get is that they aren’t supposed to be the best cameras that Nikon can make: they’re supposed to be the least mirrorless camera they can put out and yet still keep their base. (“Least” is unfair but  my point is that this camera is not the best they could do).

 It is shrewd, and it will probably work – but it is frustrating for a “true believer“ like me.  I want Nikon to make the finest cameras on the planet, and that means mirrorless in 2018.   I get the sense that Nikon still really wants us to buy the D850, and is putting out the Z7 just to shut up the mirror less chirping.

OTOH, I suppose if they craft a “D850 killer” and it fails to perform correctly then they are in a dire situation (again, the D850 is such a new camera I am certain that they don’t want to kill it).  In that scenario, the mirrorless camera is marketed as being better than that D850 and yet it doesn’t work  correctly.  Sales for both products would tank. So perhaps these cameras are semi-prototype to be sure they can pull this mirrorless thing  off?


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## cgw (Aug 26, 2018)

Peeb said:


> Derrel said:
> 
> 
> > One thought occurs to me. Possibly, this mirrorless pair of Z7 and then Z6, is designed simply to stem the tide of what Thom Hogan calls "switchers". With the apparently well-designed ZTF adapter, users can plop on over 360 Nikkor lens models and have full compatibility. With the adapter, another large number of both screw-driven AF models, and even more manual focus models lens models, can be used.
> ...



Free-floating brand loyalties seem part of the current consumer gestalt. But I'd still argue that memories of Nikon's QC issues and bumbling CRM  put off many of the faithful. Not so sanguine as others about Nikon's ability to sell these products without some heavy holiday promo discounting.


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## Braineack (Aug 26, 2018)

I'd love to pick up a z6 body if I knew if had the tech/software features of the Sonys.


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## SquarePeg (Aug 26, 2018)

I’ve been shooting digital for 11 years. I have had 1 sd card fail.  I believe it was a Sony.  Using the available software download, I was able to recover some of the photos but most were lost. As I’m not a pro, there was no client who I had to tell the bad news to, only me, disappointed that I had lost most of the photos that I took of my daughter cheerleading at her first football game. 

Many “pros” these days use prosumer level  cameras. My definition of pro in this case would be anyone who is shooting client events or portraits and charging for their work.  For those people, I would think having the backup slot is an important feature.  

Personally, with the Fuji, I like to use the two slots to shoot 1 raw 1 jpeg.  I mostly use the jpegs but I like the security of knowing I have the raw files in case I need to make exposure or white balance edits.


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## Braineack (Aug 26, 2018)

to me it's more about storage space -- i've never once used my 2nd slot as a backup, only spillover.  I could however see it being useful for jpg storage depending on the shoot; but i would never storage them otherwise, only for quick sharing/

With my d800, I can fill a 32gb card up in ~400 shots.

The price for qxd cards is quite staggering x4 the cost of an SD.


----------



## Peeb (Aug 26, 2018)

Braineack said:


> to me it's more about storage space -- i've never once used my 2nd slot as a backup, only spillover.  I could however see it being useful for jpg storage depending on the shoot; but i would never storage them otherwise, only for quick sharing/
> 
> With my d800, I can fill a 32gb card up in ~400 shots.
> 
> The price for qxd cards is quite staggering x4 the cost of an SD.


Very “spendy” indeed!


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Aug 26, 2018)

Braineack said:


> to me it's more about storage space -- i've never once used my 2nd slot as a backup, only spillover.  I could however see it being useful for jpg storage depending on the shoot; but i would never storage them otherwise, only for quick sharing/
> 
> With my d800, I can fill a 32gb card up in ~400 shots.
> 
> The price for qxd cards is quite staggering x4 the cost of an SD.



Dude, 32GB? Come on.   You paid how much for that camera and lenses and you can’t pony up for something bigger?

Also, do you honestly need the qxd? I mean, if you do then I understand but I think there’s so few of us that really need a 10 shot burst (or whatever it is that a much cheaper 100MB/s SD card will start buffering for). 

I guess 32GB does force you to upload the pix to your computer more often. Which is a bit more security if the card does fail. 

Now for the op’s question. I will not be buying one simply because I’m 100% happy with my Sony a7ii. I agree with most of what’s been shared about it not being an upgrade from what most people have. I think most people on a forum like this already are happy with what they shoot and it’s probably not a matter of ditching what you already have for it. Think about this though, if your camera bag got stolen, would you replace it with exactly what you had again? Or would you at least give it a test drive in the camera store?

I don’t think Nikon wants you to start selling off your d800’s to go out and buy a z7, but if they can convince someone already in the market for a new camera to give one a try (especially, as mentioned before, if it takes the sale away from a Sony) then I think it’s a respectable move in a shrinking industry. 


Sent from my iPhone using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app


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## greybeard (Aug 26, 2018)

Tough to say who will buy the Z6-Z7.  I currently have a D750 and a D7500 as well as a Sony A6000.   I am curious about a Z6 but, I doubt it will take any better pictures than my D750.


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## scaryloud (Aug 26, 2018)

Certain to pass.  Too many fails in my book..  Sticking with my D810 and D500 for the foreseeable future.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


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## Braineack (Aug 27, 2018)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> Dude, 32GB? Come on.  You paid how much for that camera and lenses and you can’t pony up for something bigger?
> 
> Also, do you honestly need the qxd? I mean, if you do then I understand but I think there’s so few of us that really need a 10 shot burst (or whatever it is that a much cheaper 100MB/s SD card will start buffering for).
> 
> I guess 32GB does force you to upload the pix to your computer more often. Which is a bit more security if the card does fail.




I've had those cards for my D610 -- which could fit about ~650 images each, giving my about ~1300 images before changing.  I have (6).

Since I purchased a D800--used so as not to pony-up, mind you--I had to buy a CF card for it to even utilize the dual-cards.  CF cards are also more expensive than SD cards, despite being older tech.  A 32gb extremePro CF is $50, where a 32gb extremePro SD is $20.

And yes, you honestly need the QXD -- because that's the only card slot these new cameras offer...  If I bought a z6, I'd want a 64GB QXD which add a good $220 to the purchase price, plus the cost of the F to Z adapter...

I upload images after every shoot, so the requirement doesn't change -- just the amount of cards you must change during the shoot.


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## snowbear (Aug 27, 2018)

The D750 is only one year old.  Maybe in nine years, or so (how long I had the D40).


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## BananaRepublic (Aug 27, 2018)

Peeb said:


> OP is now edited to add this link:  Nikon strikes back at Sony with first full-frame mirrorless cameras
> 
> I would have preferred 2 card slots, and it appears that the adapter may cost extra (?), which would be disappointing.  Other than that, the Z6 looks just about spot-on perfect if it performs according to the published specs.
> Really impressed, so far.



I wouldn't believe all of what that spin doctors says. He clearly states that both the d850 and d750 are weather sealed and goes on to mention snow and such, but I was specifically told by a nikon chat agent in the UK that my D750 was not weather sealed/ drizzle proof.


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## Braineack (Aug 27, 2018)

BananaRepublic said:


> ...but I was specifically told by a nikon chat agent in the UK that my D750 was not weather sealed/ drizzle proof.



you got a lousy agent.

weather sealing | Nikon D750 FX full frame digital camera


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## scaryloud (Aug 27, 2018)

Braineack said:


> BananaRepublic said:
> 
> 
> > ...but I was specifically told by a nikon chat agent in the UK that my D750 was not weather sealed/ drizzle proof.
> ...


aaand that agent clearly works for Canon.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk


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## shadowlands (Aug 27, 2018)

Count me in! I'll grab one later, used, when the prices fall. I know it's a year or two away, but when a new body comes out, and people dump the former, then I swoop in and grab them for peanuts.


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Aug 27, 2018)

I’ve thought about selling my Sony a7ii for the a7iii, but not a thought for the z6/7. 


Sent from my iPhone using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app


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## Braineack (Aug 27, 2018)

Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.


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## Destin (Aug 27, 2018)

Braineack said:


> Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.



Completely agreed. To this day I’ve never understood why they don’t allow this. Fuji does it on some cameras and it’s great.


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## ac12 (Aug 27, 2018)

Braineack said:


> Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.



Nope, I still want Bulb.
When I do some of my long exposures, like aerial fireworks, I do not know how long I want any particular shot to be.  And shot to shot, they are NOT the same duration.  So I cannot specify the shutter time in advance.


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Aug 27, 2018)

ac12 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.
> ...



Eh, allow for both then. 

Do you really hold that shutter open the whole time? Don’t you get camera shake?


Sent from my iPhone using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app


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## Destin (Aug 28, 2018)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



You use a remote release to hold or lock it open.


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## BananaRepublic (Aug 28, 2018)

Braineack said:


> BananaRepublic said:
> 
> 
> > ...but I was specifically told by a nikon chat agent in the UK that my D750 was not weather sealed/ drizzle proof.
> ...


 Fair enough but does "moisture" include sideways drizzle of the kind found in Ireland ?. On the other hand the camera will still work after a EM plus is set off.


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## Braineack (Aug 28, 2018)

-


ac12 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.
> ...



fair enough, but there's no good reason why the camera-body cannot have a programmable long-exposure length longer than 30sec without third-party help.  It's stupid.


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## jcdeboever (Aug 28, 2018)

Well, for those that want to buy one, your gonna have to wait. Nikon says they are months behind in delivery of the product. Not surprising.


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## Destin (Aug 28, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Well, for those that want to buy one, your gonna have to wait. Nikon says they are months behind in delivery of the product. Not surprising.



You’d really think they’d have learned from their past mistakes, especially with the D850 supply fiasco.


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## Destin (Aug 28, 2018)

jcdeboever said:


> Well, for those that want to buy one, your gonna have to wait. Nikon says they are months behind in delivery of the product. Not surprising.



You’d really think they’d have learned from their past mistakes, especially with the D850 supply fiasco.


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## ac12 (Aug 28, 2018)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...



Do NOT touch the camera when doing a long exposure, or you WILL shake the camera.
Use a *remote release* (aka cable release, for us old timers).


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## greybeard (Aug 30, 2018)

ac12 said:


> TreeofLifeStairs said:
> 
> 
> > ac12 said:
> ...


Also you can use the timer release.


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## astroNikon (Aug 30, 2018)

ac12 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I would love Nikon to finally do: drop BULB and allow for any shutter speed length without a third-party controller.   I'm a simple man.
> ...





TreeofLifeStairs said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...


Same thing I do for fireworks.

Since it's dark it's essentially light painting on the sensor.  You open when it's shot off the ground if you want a tail, hold it open until the explosion just starts to fade ... Which is an unknown totally dependent upon the firework and when you want to start (a tail or just the explosion itself).

I use the corded release all the time for just the button.  Push and hold in for as long as necessary.  Let go and it stops.  I have other remotes and Wifi remote but the old corded one just works better and simplier.


----------



## Braineack (Aug 30, 2018)

Again, totally valid, but what if I'm using a 10-ND filter and calculate I want to shoot for 45sec?


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## ac12 (Aug 30, 2018)

Braineack said:


> Again, totally valid, but what if I'm using a 10-ND filter and calculate I want to shoot for 45sec?



If you KNOW what exposure time you want, then yes, an extended exposure control where you can set the exposure time is good to have, be it in the camera or via an external device.

I am so used to the old film cameras, that even if I had that function in the camera, I would probably use bulb, a remote shutter release and my watch.


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## Destin (Aug 30, 2018)

ac12 said:


> Braineack said:
> 
> 
> > Again, totally valid, but what if I'm using a 10-ND filter and calculate I want to shoot for 45sec?
> ...



I feel like a lot of people would. But it would be nice for when I don’t wanna carry a lot of stuff into the back country.


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## BrentC (Aug 30, 2018)

I just use Live Composite.  Who cares about exposure time.


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## astroNikon (Aug 30, 2018)

Destin said:


> ac12 said:
> 
> 
> > Braineack said:
> ...


The OEM Corded release is super light and small (the 3rd party ones are larger though).  I always have a watch on, or at least my cell phone to use as a timer.  And then there's the IR release too which is small and thin and easily lost.


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## Destin (Aug 30, 2018)

astroNikon said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > ac12 said:
> ...



Yeah, but it’s all just one more thing to forget. If I head out to shoot long exposures, I can be totally sunk and unable to get my shot simply by forgetting a $10 remote or having dead batteries in it. 

My $3000 camera body should be able to take a photo at whatever shutter speed I desire without me needing to carry and extra accessory.


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## Derrel (Aug 30, 2018)

Simple: add back "T" in addition to B. T, for time, opens on
Press 1,closes on press 2 of the shutter. It works great. Open, put a card or hat in front on rhe lens ....wait...when the firework boom is heard, remove the hat ir card and you are already open. Expose as desired, counting or timing. When you press the button a second time, shutter closes. You use a card or other light-blocker as needed. The shutter can be opened early and vibration  allowed to quell before beginning the exposure.

T is great for loooooong timed shots. No cord needed, no cord to jiggle in the breeze, etc.


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## dxqcanada (Aug 30, 2018)

Yeah, they just need to stick good old Copal leaf shutters back into all these new lenses


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## Braineack (Aug 30, 2018)

ac12 said:


> I am so used to the old film cameras, that even if I had that function in the camera, I would probably use bulb, a remote shutter release and my watch.



I can set whatever silly time interval, or exposure bracketing, or even aperture bracketing I want -- but I can't tell the camera to take a 45sec shot.

bulb is a legacy term. and building to legacy is dumb.


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## Derrel (Aug 30, 2018)

Sorry, but no bulb is not dumb. Bulb is for open flash. Bulb is for studio work when you don't have enough flash power for a single-pop expusure,  like say whwn shooting cars or large products, when you need to stop way down, and you need four or five or six pops of the flash pack in a darkened studio: you put the camera on Bulb with a cable release or a wireless temote, and use open flash, as it has been known for decades. B stands for bulb, as in flashbulb, or for open flash uses. You can take a large 2400 W second power pack six seconds to cycle to 85% and if you need six pops it's going to be several times longer than most people would expect.


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## astroNikon (Aug 30, 2018)

Destin said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > Destin said:
> ...


Just use the shutter button then.
No battery in the corded ones.  But I understand what you say. You want a infinite built in timer.

For me, I like controlling the shutter, the time between the shutter opening and then initiating the sensor.  
Sometimes I initiate the shutter up (for MUP+BULB).  then have to wait for a slight breeze that started (or time to walk away, or block the wind, or something rumbling by) before initiating the sensor.


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## Braineack (Aug 31, 2018)

Derrel said:


> Sorry, but no bulb is not dumb. Bulb is for open flash. Bulb is for studio work when you don't have enough flash power for a single-pop expusure,  like say whwn shooting cars or large products, when you need to stop way down, and you need four or five or six pops of the flash pack in a darkened studio: you put the camera on Bulb with a cable release or a wireless temote, and use open flash, as it has been known for decades. B stands for bulb, as in flashbulb, or for open flash uses. You can take a large 2400 W second power pack six seconds to cycle to 85% and if you need six pops it's going to be several times longer than most people would expect.



again, that's fine and valid, but a digital camera not being able to program, digitally, the amount of time you want to open the shutter for is.   it's just such a low-hanging fruit thing that many photographers would use, but have to go to third-party devices to do.


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## BananaRepublic (Aug 31, 2018)

Do third part devices need to purchase some sort of license from nikon, ergo are they making more money from the licensing then the margin gained from including it on models


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## Braineack (Aug 31, 2018)

of all the silly things to have to buy -- to freakin' program the shutter time past 30sec?!  it's just such an arbitrary time to limit you to.

it's just one of those things that irks me.  I ran into that in Greece when I was doing some long-exposure stuff and hit the 30sec barrier.


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## greybeard (Sep 2, 2018)

I am real conflicted over pre-ordering a Z6.  I have a D750, why would I need a Z6 but, I sure am gassing for one.


----------



## Destin (Sep 2, 2018)

greybeard said:


> I am real conflicted over pre-ordering a Z6.  I have a D750, why would I need a Z6 but, I sure am gassing for one.



I wish I could say this was the case for me. I really do. 

But I’m underwhelmed by the new Z series. I really like my Fuji x-t20 for the fact that it’s mirrorless, but the image quality doesn’t knock me out. The files always seem kind of muddy. 

All this to say: I’ve been bitten my the mirrorless bug, and Nikon’s offerings aren’t what I’m looking for at this time. I have a strong feeling I’ll be moving to Sony in the next few months and selling off my Nikon kit.. and it hurts to say that. 

I’ll be renting an A7R III and a lens or two to demo and see if I like it. If I do, expect a purge of my gear closet.


----------



## greybeard (Sep 2, 2018)

Destin said:


> greybeard said:
> 
> 
> > I am real conflicted over pre-ordering a Z6.  I have a D750, why would I need a Z6 but, I sure am gassing for one.
> ...


What is it about the Z series that has you underwhelmed?


----------



## Destin (Sep 2, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > greybeard said:
> ...



Battery life, no eye af, no second card slot. 

If I’m being honest I could probably live with most of those issues, but the Sony stuff has been tempting me for a while now and I’ve been ignoring it. I was hoping Nikon would really knock it out of the park with the z series, and they just didn’t blow me away enough to make me not want the Sony. 

Yes, this is likely just GAS. But it’s hard to ignore. The Sony stuff seems to take what I like about my D810 and what I like about my X-T20 and combines all their best features. The only thing I don’t love about the Sony stuff is the ergonomics, but I could get used to that.


----------



## greybeard (Sep 2, 2018)

Destin said:


> greybeard said:
> 
> 
> > Destin said:
> ...


I don't know about the A7 but my Sony A6000 pretty bad and I always carry a second battery.  My biggest gripe with Sony is their ergonomics.  I've just gotten so use to Nikons natural ergonomics that everything else just feels wrong.   Renting the A7R is a really good idea.  Hope you can deal with the Sony ergonomics better than me.


----------



## astroNikon (Sep 4, 2018)

Destin said:


> greybeard said:
> 
> 
> > I am real conflicted over pre-ordering a Z6.  I have a D750, why would I need a Z6 but, I sure am gassing for one.
> ...


I nearly went to SONY a couple years ago.  But their "Star Eater" problem stopped it. I don't know if they fixed it yet.   ie, software which inadvertantly removed stars small points of light in a night photo situation.


----------



## Destin (Sep 4, 2018)

astroNikon said:


> Destin said:
> 
> 
> > greybeard said:
> ...



This was definitely a problem a few years ago, but it seems that the newer top end Sony bodies have fixed it. I know of alot of prominent Astro shooters who use the A7R II and III


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## DarkShadow (Sep 4, 2018)

I  rather have the Sony A7III over the Z6 and if i was going to spend 3 grand on the Z7 ,I buy the D850 instead. I see nothing exciting about the Z6 or Z7


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## Designer (Sep 5, 2018)

DarkShadow said:


> I see nothing exciting about the Z6 or Z7


Contrary to Nikon's advertising slogan, they didn't "reinvent" anything.


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## pixmedic (Sep 6, 2018)

the comments on both the Nikon and Canon mirrorless cameras are kinda funny... people are like:

for years now: OMG Nikon and Canon dont make a mirrless camera...they suck!  they arent doing their business right! they arent doing right by their consumers!

Nikon and Canon finally produce mirrorless cameras: OMG Nikon and Canon arent making mirrorless cameras to the exact specs that "I" think they should be! they suck! they arent doing their business right! they arent doing right by their customers!


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## Braineack (Sep 7, 2018)

amen.


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## coastalconn (Sep 7, 2018)

DarkShadow said:


> I  rather have the Sony A7III over the Z6 and if i was going to spend 3 grand on the Z7 ,I buy the D850 instead. I see nothing exciting about the Z6 or Z7


I ran into someone shooting the Sony A7 something . I looked through the viewfinder and tried to track an Osprey and I was like no f&#+_ thanks..  confirmed my complete lack of interest in any ML camera


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## BrentC (Sep 7, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> DarkShadow said:
> 
> 
> > I  rather have the Sony A7III over the Z6 and if i was going to spend 3 grand on the Z7 ,I buy the D850 instead. I see nothing exciting about the Z6 or Z7
> ...




Huh, I don't seem to have any problems tracking anything from large birds to swallows with my mirrorless.


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## SquarePeg (Sep 7, 2018)

I think the evf takes a bit of getting used to, just like any new piece of equipment.  I can’t imagine going back to a non evf and using just the exposure + - again after being able to SEE my exposure.


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## Destin (Sep 7, 2018)

SquarePeg said:


> I think the evf takes a bit of getting used to, just like any new piece of equipment.  I can’t imagine going back to a non evf and using just the exposure + - again after being able to SEE my exposure.



This is where I’m at. 

I hated EVFs as much or more than anyone, even after first getting the x-t20. But it’s 100% won me over at this point and I could never go back.


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Sep 7, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> DarkShadow said:
> 
> 
> > I  rather have the Sony A7III over the Z6 and if i was going to spend 3 grand on the Z7 ,I buy the D850 instead. I see nothing exciting about the Z6 or Z7
> ...



What was the issue(s)? Was it just different from what you are used to?


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## coastalconn (Sep 7, 2018)

BrentC said:


> coastalconn said:
> 
> 
> > DarkShadow said:
> ...


I hated looking through it, seemed like a TV set from the 80s


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## DarkShadow (Sep 7, 2018)

I had the Fuji X-T10 and took picture's of a bird in flight a duck I think, it nailed focus but i was still seeing the bird in the  EVF like replay after the bird was long gone.


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## BrentC (Sep 7, 2018)

coastalconn said:


> BrentC said:
> 
> 
> > coastalconn said:
> ...



I guess I can see that.   Having gone straight to mirrorless and not using a DSLR its not something I had to get used to.   But not all EVF's are equal as well.   Don't know the A7 so can't compare but the Oly definitely doesn't look like a TV set from the 80's, its got very good resolution.  I love the fact that what I see is what I get and can adjust on the fly.


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## Derrel (Sep 7, 2018)

I was watching news videos about Canon and Nikon and Fuji mirrorless cameras that have been announced. In one video, Tony Northrup mentioned that one new model has 30 refreshes per second, but also has a 60 refreshes per second option, as well as a high-speed action mode which has 100 refreshes per second. So...the slow,laggy mirrorless EVFs of the past have been improved upon!

According to what I have read, the new Nikon Z7's EVF image is actually _VERY_ crisp and clear...as in better than the Nikon D850's optical finder image,according to one reviewer who was at the Nikon New York premier of the Nikon Z7 camera on the 25th of August. A second reviewer I watched really,really,really likes the Nikon Z7's EVF image quality.

In the early days of mirrorless, the refresh rate and the image quality as seen through the EVF were both rather unimpressive; apparently, the better cameras are now substantially better than what used to be the norm.

Anyway...


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## DarkShadow (Sep 7, 2018)

I do actually think the Z6 and Z7 has a nice looking body style and they seem to have kept  buttons and menu much like the DSLR which i think is a good thing.


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## astroNikon (Sep 7, 2018)

From a few reviews that I've seen I think the EVF is close to continuous if you use the electronic shutter as the image is taken from sensor.  With normally shutter you lose the image for a short time as you would with a DSLR, but you don't have to wait for the mirror to come back down.  And "adjusting the lens to the AF Module" isn't a problem as the AF is on the sensor versus on the lower part of the body so nothing to get out of whack/ adjustment.


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## BananaRepublic (Sep 9, 2018)

This is the way of the future and if you dont like it you may as well retire to your kitchen garden.


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## greybeard (Sep 9, 2018)

Comparing DSLR's to mirrorless is comparing mature tech to emerging tech.  At this point, mirrorless other than size and weight, doesn't offer me anything over my DSLR's.  In fact, I prefer looking through the viewfinder of my DSLR's over my mirrorless.  However, just like the SLR replaced the rangefinder and TLR as the most popular camera tech, mirrorless will only get better and will eventually replace the DSLR as the most popular camera tech.


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## SquarePeg (Sep 9, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Comparing DSLR's to mirrorless is comparing mature tech to emerging tech.  At this point, mirrorless other than size and weight, doesn't offer me anything over my DSLR's.  In fact, I prefer looking through the viewfinder of my DSLR's over my mirrorless.  However, just like the SLR replaced the rangefinder and TLR as the most popular camera tech, mirrorless will only get better and will eventually replace the DSLR as the most popular camera tech.



Until the next thing comes along.


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## BananaRepublic (Sep 10, 2018)

greybeard said:


> will eventually replace the DSLR as the most popular camera tech.



NASA staff had a straw pole thats why the Hubble telescope is mirroless


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## Braineack (Sep 10, 2018)

greybeard said:


> However, just like the SLR replaced the rangefinder and TLR as the most popular camera tech, mirrorless will only get better and will eventually replace the DSLR as the most popular camera tech.



it already has...


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## Derrel (Sep 10, 2018)

I know we are days into this thread, but I just found these two blog posts:

Thoughts on the New Nikon Z-Series

"_While there are areas where Sony has the edge, there are also some areas where Nikon has outdone Sony. *For a start, the screen and viewfinder seem to be better.* I have always had an issue with Sony screens. It’s actually put me off in some respects, and was my biggest issue when using the A7II and my A6000. 

For video, Nikon are offering a new log profile and 10-bit video, but only with an external recorder. This is both good and bad. Obviously it would be nice to have this internally, but Sony doesn’t do 10 bit in any way, despite people requesting this from Sony for years_."

and

A few more Nikon Z-Series Notes

"_In my opinion, this isn’t a single “win or lose”, or “one and only shot” attempt from Nikon. This is the start of a long-term effort to transition to Mirrorless. That effort will take time and this is just the first iteration, and a way to attract early adopters. The idea that Nikon would leapfrog 3 generations of Sony technology, in an area that is new to it, in one go is kind of daft if you think about it objectively. *They decided to focus on the areas that Sony was traditionally weak in, ergonomics and usability*, rather than the technical aspects where Nikon undoubtedly has a disadvantage. But this is only the beginning. It’s not going to happen overnight with one single pair of cameras, and people expecting it to, really should try and see the bigger picture._"


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## astroNikon (Sep 11, 2018)

BananaRepublic said:


> greybeard said:
> 
> 
> > will eventually replace the DSLR as the most popular camera tech.
> ...


well .. the Hubble has a 94.5 inch mirror in it.  Kinda the antipode of Mirrorless.


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## Braineack (Sep 12, 2018)

they used to take film into space, and catch the film--jettisoned back to earth--from planes...


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## Solarflare (Sep 25, 2018)

I already have a great full frame system. I dont need a second one.

And on top of that there isnt even actually a great full frame mirrorless system out there anyway. Right now they're all fighting over which is the crappiest. Certainly none of them is even remotely able to replace my Nikon F system. Even less so at a tolerable price point.

Also mirrorless fans keep inventing advantages that their system doesnt have, ignore disadvantages it has, and blow up the advantages it actually has in their importance. Mirrorless vs SLR is a trade, not a clear improvement either way.


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## DarkShadow (Sep 25, 2018)

Thinking of getting a Panasonic G85 4/3 then a Panasonic / Leica glass 100 -400.


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## zulu42 (Sep 25, 2018)

I haven't double-checked every page of this thread, but... is _anybody_ here getting a Z-mount?


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## TreeofLifeStairs (Sep 25, 2018)

zulu42 said:


> I haven't double-checked every page of this thread, but... is _anybody_ here getting a Z-mount?



I think one two said they’d be interested after a couple generations to work out the bugs. 


Sent from my iPhone using ThePhotoForum.com mobile app


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## zulu42 (Sep 25, 2018)

They seem like nice cameras. I'd like to hold one, but I'm not in the market. The price point on the XT-3 is brutal competition imo.


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## greybeard (Sep 26, 2018)

TreeofLifeStairs said:


> zulu42 said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't double-checked every page of this thread, but... is _anybody_ here getting a Z-mount?
> ...


I'm not saying that I'll never buy a Z mount, I'm just taking a wait and see attitude and hope that GAS doesn't get the better of me.


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## Peeb (Sep 26, 2018)

zulu42 said:


> I haven't double-checked every page of this thread, but... is _anybody_ here getting a Z-mount?


I'm pretty disgusted by some of the choices that Nikon made (1 slot, e.g.) but am still seriously pondering the Z6 when it comes out.  We shall see...


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## tharlanjr (Nov 25, 2018)

Bumping this. 

I’m in the market for a new camera. I got a D7100 a few years back and want to go full frame now. 

It’s between the D750 and the Z6. The price difference between the two is close enough that I am thinking of just going to the Z6. 

Mostly do Astrophotography but just enjoy taking pictures in general.


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## vagabondkidd (Nov 25, 2018)

Too hard for me to make a decision considering other choices that have similar or close to its price range.


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## Jeff G (Nov 25, 2018)

I think if I was going to drop that much coin it would be for a D850, it tics all the boxes for me.


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## astroNikon (Nov 25, 2018)

tharlanjr said:


> Bumping this.
> 
> I’m in the market for a new camera. I got a D7100 a few years back and want to go full frame now.
> 
> ...


For astrophotography I'd go with the Z6 mirrorless.
I've used DSLRs up to my current D750 on my 2,000mm telescope.   The problem I always disliked is the mirror slap.  I have to provide another 5 seconds from the mirrorup MUP to the image capture to prevent minute star shift from the mirror slap.   If I had the money I'd switch over to mirrorless.

But keep your D7100 24mp APS-C.  It comes in handy for more deep space star/nebula images.


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## tharlanjr (Nov 26, 2018)

astroNikon said:


> tharlanjr said:
> 
> 
> > Bumping this.
> ...




Thanks for the input. What’s your reasoning behind keeping the 7100 for deep space? That is on my list of things to learn. Currently researching telescopes and mounts.


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## ac12 (Nov 26, 2018)

tharlanjr said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > tharlanjr said:
> ...



Maybe the 1.5x crop, to get a narrower field of view.


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## Peeb (Nov 26, 2018)

tharlanjr said:


> Bumping this.
> 
> I’m in the market for a new camera. I got a D7100 a few years back and want to go full frame now.
> 
> ...


Let me make two contradictory statements:


 The D750 is the better image maker.
I would go with the Z6.
OK- so why pass on the better camera?  Mirrorless cameras seem to be here to stay, so it seems to me that the next full frame camera I buy should be invested in that tech.  I don't think the focusing on the Z6 is quite as sophisticated, and it certainly lacks dual cards but the initial reviews of the Z6 are still pretty decent, and my current instinct is to go for it. 

Still debating, personally, but if given the choice between just those 2- I'm currently thinking the Z6.


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## ac12 (Nov 26, 2018)

Peeb said:


> tharlanjr said:
> 
> 
> > Bumping this.
> ...



I would go D750, but that is based on what and how I shoot.
The mirrorless that I've seen and can afford, isn't yet up to matching an OVF for sports.  Though I've read that the $4,000 Sony is.

Having said that, I have and use micro 4/3 with an EVF, and I love it.  The biggest plus is the ability to see the image as it would be captured, so that I can make exposure adjustment BEFORE I press the shutter.  This is really helpful in difficult lighting situations where it was a shoot, check, adjust, repeated cycle to narrow in on a good exposure.
But I have not figured out the EVF for sports, and my first couple times out were a disappointment.


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## astroNikon (Nov 27, 2018)

tharlanjr said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > tharlanjr said:
> ...


Due to the "extra reach" of the condensed pixels.  Essentially FOV 1.5x your telescope without any magnification.  At one time I tested a 2x with a 1.5x APS-C on my 2,000mm scope, which made it essentially a 6,000mm fuzzy FOV.  Yeah, you can do some crazy stuff.

Something to keep in mind.  Cheap(er) mirror scopes may not produce as clear an image as a long lens/refractor type scope.  ie, sometimes I get better images in brighter night locations with my 600mm lens than my 2,000mm telescope of a nebula.  In very dark sky locations the 12inch scope of mine does really well.  A 5 inch scope may produce great images in bright night locations.  I have multiple tubes for various situations.

I also have a 90 degree eyepiece for the D750 / D7x00 cameras when its on my scope.  Also the flippy screen is really handy too but a long mechanical process of getting the mirror out of the way is noisy and have to wait a bit.  

Focusing on the LCD I don't think is 100% as accurate as with the viewfinder.  So I'm really curious how visual focusing on the Z6 LCD would be like ??


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## Peeb (Nov 27, 2018)

ac12 said:


> Peeb said:
> 
> 
> > tharlanjr said:
> ...


The OP did not mention sports shooting.  If I wanted a sports/action kit, I would avoid both the Z6 and the D750 in favor of the amazing D500.  I agree with you that if forced to shoot sports with either the Z6 or the D750, then the jack-of-all trades D750 should be expected to be much better.


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## nateliv (Dec 3, 2018)

Hopefully Nikon does a better job with this new mirrorless than their old one which doesn't exactly get good reviews.


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## BananaRepublic (Dec 3, 2018)

astroNikon said:


> Due to the "extra reach"



Is that a target your painting on your back.


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## Braineack (Dec 3, 2018)

BananaRepublic said:


> astroNikon said:
> 
> 
> > Due to the "extra reach"
> ...



see my sig for clarification.


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## Photo Lady (Mar 11, 2019)

so does anyone have a Nikon z6 .. i wonder if they are happy and content... would love to hear from an owner too/ so much interesting info....


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## Rinderart (Mar 11, 2019)

I actually tested all Mirrorless cameras out there for Months. Im a working pro , shooting 61 years and teaching for 12 years. Xt2 was on the Radar. Something was funny. I went ahead and bought the z7. Long story short. I took It back in 3 Days as I traded In My Workhorse d800. got a D850 and Back to Pro Work. without going On and On. Maybe In a few More Years......Maybe. I like substantial ....sorry. weekend Camera....???Sure. Clients and Products...Nope.
Rinderart.com


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## bchalifour (Mar 19, 2019)

Best Nikon ever (and I also use Fuji but no 43 Mp full-frame sensor at an affordable price there).


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## bchalifour (Mar 19, 2019)

I have had Nikon since the 1970s (since then I have used and accumulated all the F-single digits except for the F6). I have also used Ds (FF and DX), mine, my friends' and family's. I acquired a Z7 a few month ago (and using my pre-Z lenses with adapter as well as my 35 mm summicron), in conclusion : the best Nikon ever ! (except for a little glitch with Adobe Photoshop before update where the blues were too saturated for my taste just out of the camera [resolved by both Nikon and Adobe updates]). Why : 47 Mp, light, EVF (all the information I select and need), very effective stabilization, weight, size, easy to move to from previous Nikons, well-made.


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## bchalifour (Mar 19, 2019)

By the way to answer Rinderart, the smaller weight, size, the EVF and the stabilization make my pro (and personal) work far more efficient and easier than my D800 which I have kept so far just in case and have not touched since I got my Z7. So Rinderart's argument is subjective but in my mind not really based on the qualities of both cameras—the Z7 offers far more than the D850 (EVF, Stabilization (less chances of fuzzy images because of the high resolution and possibility to use lower ISO for better quality), less bulk...). But I would agree with him, subjectivity is part of the deal especially if you have to use your equipment on a daily or almost daily basis. What subjectively works for him may not subjectively work for you or me, so I'd rather stick to the objective specification as a first step, the next being just try it if you can to see it fits your style.


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## Rinderart (Mar 19, 2019)

Look at it this way. If I was a hobbyist. I would probably own 2 Z7's. I need a camera in My hands that Mentally gives me confidence That I can do what I need to Do. I have some 35/40 Year VERY Picky clients. My Other camera is the Phase One 150IQ and 3 lenses which a Client Leases for me to shoot Their Extreme High End, Detailed,Very expensive Parts that go Into the Hadron Collider underground in France/Switzerland . I have to shoot In a clean room. Sorry Guys, I wanted it to be More for day to day stuff...after being with Nikon since the very Beginning,And Leica and Hasselblad. I did 3 Months every weekend Taking every Mirrorless camera to my studio for bench testing Like I have for decades Testing Lenses for a Living. and , as a sidenote the Inconsistencies Nowdays with manufacturing Lenses compared to Early Schneider  And Zeiss is appalling to say the least.. I own 7 Lenses ...It took me going through 40 to get to seven without Pin cushion effects, Or..Barrel Distortion
I don't just walk around a store. I've been with My store 40 Years. I can Take anything Home for a week end.

Ok ...I settled On the Z7 and the Glass. I get a Lot of free stuff perks which is Nice Because I bring students in there.........3 Days go By. Im shooting everything.....it just wasn't there "FOR ME" Guys. which should mean Nothing to you, I tried as Im Not much of a Gotta have every Little New thing. I think Nikon digital made some very ground Breaking Cameras. D2H,D2X,D3 and D800 were worth every penny. true workhorse products along With My collection Of Legacy Nikon Optics. I just wish Nikon and the Others would start Making Glass that resolve More than 18MP....Yes 18MP. But we all would go broke Buying them, If they did....
So , In conclusion if Z6/Z7 works for you?...GREAT!!! enjoy I knew In 3 Days it was Not for me. I guess Kinda Like a car. Looks Great, drives good But yust Isn't you.
 Took It back and picked Up a D850......It's a beast with a grip and almost Identical to d800 with a few Improvements., Perfect for 80% of what I do from simple stock to Highend clients and Beyond that , The Phaseone which is another world.... And Just a piece Of advise....peeps. NEVER,EVER fill out a warranty Card . Or you Own it. period and save everything. When I took It back, My Old friend,The salesmen understood completely....He said....I wasn't the first.Good luck. Try Next year or 2 years. Nikon Knows they have Issues. the west coast Rep Is a Best Friend. we were worried Nikon was In trouble all through 2017/2018


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## BillM (Mar 21, 2019)

I wanted to love the Z's even to the point where I called the store and had them put it aside for me. But once I got there and handled it for awhile I just didn't like the feel and looking through the EVF made me a little seasick. So I walked out with the D850. My thought was Z6 with a 24-70 would be good for halftime award ceremonies or press conferences, something with a nice small form factor to carry instead of a second full body. Also non sport freelance assignments and Prom shoots.  Shooting mostly sports I always have my D4s on my right and D3s on my left so I really wanted a small form factor so I didn't have to carry a second full size body. I'm not getting any younger lol But I really hate being the guinea pig, lets see what the second generation brings lol


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## ac12 (Mar 21, 2019)

BillM said:


> I wanted to love the Z's even to the point where I called the store and had them put it aside for me. But once I got there and handled it for awhile I just didn't like the feel and looking through the EVF made me a little seasick. So I walked out with the D850. My thought was Z6 with a 24-70 would be good for halftime award ceremonies or press conferences, something with a nice small form factor to carry instead of a second full body. Also non sport freelance assignments and Prom shoots.  Shooting mostly sports I always have my D4s on my right and D3s on my left so I really wanted a small form factor so I didn't have to carry a second full size body. I'm not getting any younger lol But I really hate being the guinea pig, lets see what the second generation brings lol



I would have said go to micro 4/3, to reduce carry weight.  But from my experience, it isn't there yet.
I started the switch from DX to m4/3, to reduce the carry weight, but I did not complete the switch.
I found that m4/3 is still not up to dSLR for fast sport photography.  I tried HARD to make it work, but I could not.  So I still shoot my D7200 for fast sports.  m4/3 for everything else.


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## BillM (Mar 21, 2019)

Even the 850 feels a little small in my hand, the big pro bodies are just so comfortable to shoot with. When I held that Z body in my hand it felt soooooo small.


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## Call_me_Tom (Mar 21, 2019)

BillM said:


> Even the 850 feels a little small in my hand, the big pro bodies are just so comfortable to shoot with. When I held that Z body in my hand it felt soooooo small.


I felt the same way, I found it small and angular, not substantial and curved like a DSLR.


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## BillM (Mar 21, 2019)

Call_me_Tom said:


> I felt the same way, I found it small and angular, not substantial and curved like a DSLR.



Well said, I'm sure it is a fine camera but it just isn't for me. But the future comes fast so I look forward to what version 2 may bring.


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## Rinderart (Mar 21, 2019)

Great post and agree. also my salesman from the largest stores On the west coast agrees also. I don't like Kool aid. Was Looking for More at that price and got less.....Sorry.LOL


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## Rinderart (Mar 22, 2019)

The Boss of One of My Rather large worldwide clients Loves it. But....he's Not in anyway a photographer. His last and Only Camera was a 6MP D70. He likes to shoot video, and a assistant process's His stuff. he's a brilliant very successful Business man. Just Not very creative. Thank Goodness. LOL Im nikon forever so I had to give it a fair trial......NOPE!.


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## Call_me_Tom (Apr 5, 2019)

Rinderart said:


> The Boss of One of My Rather large worldwide clients Loves it. But....he's Not in anyway a photographer. His last and Only Camera was a 6MP D70.



Honestly that’s the smart way of doing things if the current camera you own handles everything you need. 

I went N70 to D200 to D700.


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## Rinderart (May 1, 2019)

Almost a Month and a half and Im Madly In Love with the D850. But the vertical Grip is a Must. Im so used to Heavy...Maybe that was it. a Camera "MUST" give me confidence In My Hand. Z7 did Not.


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