# I want my pay to Match my work



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

Am I wrong for believing that I should be getting paid more for the work I am doing. The problem is before this recent shoot I had no example or portfolio of my quality of work. On the other hand feel free to help and offer suggestions of what I can improve In. Used to think it was my equipment I know now it's just experience and lack of understanding of my equipment and set up. I am well aware of the aggressive humor and feed back that comes with this forum and gotta say I love it. The one thing I have going for myself is I'm not sensitive. I am eager to learn and humble. I just want to continue to improve and stop taking crap for pay.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

The market will determine what you can charge. As you improve, the market will be willing to pay more! Why do you "Have" to be paid? Why not just enjoy the hobby... a lot less stress that way!


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> The market will determine what you can charge. As you improve, the market will be willing to pay more! Why do you "Have" to be paid? Why not just enjoy the hobby... a lot less stress that way!



Cgipson great question why do I want to get paid? Simple answer it's a profession I want. When I was in Iraq I had the pleasure of experiencing the thrill of journalistic photography that fueled my dream to someday work for national geographic as a photographer. Now will the pictures I took in Iraq have a certain sensitive nature that will never allow me to use them. I had a opportunity most people search their whole lives for. So long story short I found what I want to do as a passion career and a life style I want to become the best in my field and I want to get paid for it cause well life cost money. Hobby's are great but Time is money and I want to get paid to do what I enjoy as well as become good enough to do so. I spent five years of my life doing something greater than myself it's time to be selfish and do what I want and get paid for it.


----------



## jake337 (Feb 10, 2013)

Whatever you think your work should be bringing in, add 20-30% and charge that!


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

jake337 said:
			
		

> Whatever you think your work should be bringing in, add 20-30% and charge that!



Thanks jake


----------



## SCraig (Feb 10, 2013)

Many times what one wants out of life takes second place to what they are able to get out of life.  Live in a place like I do and watch all the starving musicians doing everything they can to get the break that they feel that they deserve and that becomes obvious.  Photography, much like music, is only going to provide as much income as the market will bear.  Also, much like music, there are hundreds of thousands of photographers (and musicians and actors and models and artists) who think they are good enough to "Make It".

And maybe they are.  The dream does come true for a few, but most eventually become disillusioned and go back to whatever they did beforehand.  Follow your dreams but temper them with a dose of reality.  For every photographer who shoots for National Geographic or Life or Time or Maxim or Playboy or any other magazine there are thousands who don't.  If you want to be one of the very, very few then your photography has to stand head and shoulders above the rest and it has to do so on its own merits.

This isn't something that comes from picking up a camera a few months ago and simply deciding that this is what one is going to do with their life, it takes a lifetime of commitment.  People go to school for years to learn photography, and spend more years perfecting their abilities.  Some will reach the position that they seek, others will eventually come to the realization that they really are just mediocre, much like everyone else.

As Charlie stated, the market is going to determine the value of your photographs.  Not you or us or anyone else.  The only person who can put a price on a photograph is the one willing to purchase it.


----------



## pgriz (Feb 10, 2013)

Worth and pay frequently don't equal because the other factor in the equation is the power relationship between the two.  Which is why individual workers band together to form unions.  Which is why cartels can affect price the way single companies can't.  Which is why the pressure is on corporations to become big so that they have the pricing/buying power.  It is considered smart business to pay for a fraction of the worth of something.  So part of the effort in bringing pay and worth closer into line is to understand the power relationship and to see where the trade-off points are.  Uniqueness, unsatisfied demand, popularity, etc. are all things that can put the value/worth equation more in your camp.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok! Then you need to base your rates on your CODB, not necessarily what you "think" you should be making! CODB includes all costs that you incur as a Professional, plus whatever salary you want. Taxes, licensing, insurance, professional organizations, transportation, office costs, studio costs, ISP service, electricity, heating, cooling, etc.. and many other things should all be taken into account (see your accountant for suggestions)! We have no idea what you costs are.. so we have no way of giving you an estimate.

Jake's suggestion... what you THINK you are worth, plus 20-30%?  That would allow you to charge anything, realistic or not. You might think you are worth millions.. or worth nothing!  CODB is a starting point to see if your "worth" to the market is greater than the costs you incur! If your costs are higher than what the market is willing to pay, you won't stay in business.... 

That will at least give you a more realistic starting point... that what you "Think" you are worth...


----------



## pgriz (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm going to have to disagree with Charlie, to a point.  Pricing theory usually says that demand and perceived value are the things that influence price the most.  When there is much competition, and the product is close to being a commodity, then pricing according to the CODB makes sense as "usually" your competitors will have roughly similar costs and then you're in the ball-park.  Much of marketing theory is focused on creating differentiation and uniqueness, plus a perception of desire, that allows the seller to increase prices over CODB.  Luxury goods are sold on the "exclusivity" basis, and their costs of products are usually not much greater than those of the competitors, but they can demand a high premium because of perception.  Think of vodka, for example - the top brands are up to several hundred times more expensive than the "no-name" brands, and yet, the basic product is the same.  Same for cars.  Same for drugs.  Same for top artists.


----------



## KmH (Feb 10, 2013)

To start with, you didn't start the thread in the appropriate forum. I've moved it from *The Professional Gallery* (see forum description) to *General Shop Talk* (see forum description)

You'll be able to demand higher pay as you become more professional.
Professional photography is as much about having business acumen as it is about having photography/art skills.
You have to promote and advertise your work, or stated another way, you have to spend money to make money.

Rangfinder magazine's latest issue has an article that describes how the photographer Joey L. came to national attention.
Like so many, it basically hinged on a single job, an image he made that was used as a poster for the chart-busting Twilight film series.
Had the film series not been a success, Joey L. would likely still be a struggling photographer.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

SCraig said:
			
		

> Many times what one wants out of life takes second place to what they are able to get out of life.  Live in a place like I do and watch all the starving musicians doing everything they can to get the break that they feel that they deserve and that becomes obvious.  Photography, much like music, is only going to provide as much income as the market will bear.  Also, much like music, there are hundreds of thousands of photographers (and musicians and actors and models and artists) who think they are good enough to "Make It".
> 
> And maybe they are.  The dream does come true for a few, but most eventually become disillusioned and go back to whatever they did beforehand.  Follow your dreams but temper them with a dose of reality.  For every photographer who shoots for National Geographic or Life or Time or Maxim or Playboy or any other magazine there are thousands who don't.  If you want to be one of the very, very few then your photography has to stand head and shoulders above the rest and it has to do so on its own merits.
> 
> ...



Very nice and I hear you on that. One problem though I hear what your saying about starving musicians and you do have a valid point how ever the difference hear is I don't have to satisfy a mass market with one photograph. I'm not trying to sell stock photography the two samples of my work is something did for a clothing designer. I worked with him before on some tfp work and well he paid me 50 bucks for my time. Considering that I do fall into the starving artist category by means of not making a sustainable living at this point in my progress and only at this point. But musicians have to attract people to one event or a song that they have created I may not be the best Bussines man and for damn sure I am not college educated. But I will say this I'm not coming from a position. Of oh my god I have a camera and no one wants to pay me what I think I'm worth. No this isn't a sobb story it's a I need to connect with fellow photographer I need to eat some humble pie and I need to find out what I have to change and improve to become better. The difference between starving or struggling and success is perseverance. I'm not entitled to anything more than what I earn and what I earn is going to be determined of what I do to earn it. So if I have to bee college educated to improve I will do I need to pay someone to teach me I will. Should I become an assistant to well known photographer and learn the ins and outs of proper technique so that later my ideas won't be shadowed by rookie mistakes. These are things I consider and want to n ow if anyone out there has struggled with the same issues what they did to overcome them and how I can apply it to me. The problem with America is not that it's full of pipe dreamers or people who feel owed something phenomenal it is in the individuals how far are you willing to go to make it. Adapt and over come. And SEMPER Fidelis ( always faithful) it's a matter of when and how not a matter of can or cannot with me. Thank you for you insightful response


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

KmH said:
			
		

> To start with, you didn't start the thread in the appropriate forum. I've moved it from The Professional Gallery (see forum description) to General Shop Talk (see forum description)
> 
> You'll be able to demand higher pay as you become more professional.
> Professional photography is as much about having business acumen as it is about having photography/art skills.
> ...



Thanks or correcting my thread post for starters and second thank you so much for the point in the direction I will check out the marketing article as soon as I can do you have other suggestions if you ever do message me


----------



## techniker (Feb 10, 2013)

> I want my pay to match my work



Dont we all.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

SCraig said:
			
		

> Many times what one wants out of life takes second place to what they are able to get out of life.  Live in a place like I do and watch all the starving musicians doing everything they can to get the break that they feel that they deserve and that becomes obvious.  Photography, much like music, is only going to provide as much income as the market will bear.  Also, much like music, there are hundreds of thousands of photographers (and musicians and actors and models and artists) who think they are good enough to "Make It".
> 
> And maybe they are.  The dream does come true for a few, but most eventually become disillusioned and go back to whatever they did beforehand.  Follow your dreams but temper them with a dose of reality.  For every photographer who shoots for National Geographic or Life or Time or Maxim or Playboy or any other magazine there are thousands who don't.  If you want to be one of the very, very few then your photography has to stand head and shoulders above the rest and it has to do so on its own merits.
> 
> ...



Hahaha I just saw the point about picking up a camera a few months ago. Theoretically transitioning from shooting from ones self to shooting for market and demand or clients you could say it's was a few month ago I do wedding have done them since 2009 after my first deployment but going from compensation for ones work to making a living or even running a successful career is what I'm looking at. Any suggestions for schools? I will post this quote I don't remember the author of it but he is in a book I read he stated that in his 40 years of doing photography professionally he has really only be taking pictures for several hours. Or a week considering that majority of his shutter speeds are factored at fractions of a second each image that he had captured in his career still only equaled up to hours and it took a life time to get those hours. How he described it is how I approach my photography I want to improve I want to know what I can do school I what I'm looking into but also the photography industry is community based. So I would really like to know some personal experiences successes and failures. I enjoy your insight


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

techniker said:
			
		

> Dont we all.



Lmfao thanks for the laughs that is so true I'm just  looking for some direction that's it. Maybe I shouldn't of posted such a broad topic and just asked about specific and very small topics lol


----------



## SCraig (Feb 10, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Very nice and I hear you on that. One problem though I hear what your saying about starving musicians and you do have a valid point how ever the difference hear is I don't have to satisfy a mass market with one photograph. I'm not trying to sell stock photography the two samples of my work is something did for a clothing designer. I worked with him before on some tfp work and well he paid me 50 bucks for my time. Considering that I do fall into the starving artist category by means of not making a sustainable living at this point in my progress and only at this point. But musicians have to attract people to one event or a song that they have created I may not be the best Bussines man and for damn sure I am not college educated. But I will say this I'm not coming from a position. Of oh my god I have a camera and no one wants to pay me what I think I'm worth. No this isn't a sobb story it's a I need to connect with fellow photographer I need to eat some humble pie and I need to find out what I have to change and improve to become better. The difference between starving or struggling and success is perseverance. I'm not entitled to anything more than what I earn and what I earn is going to be determined of what I do to earn it. So if I have to bee college educated to improve I will do I need to pay someone to teach me I will. Should I become an assistant to well known photographer and learn the ins and outs of proper technique so that later my ideas won't be shadowed by rookie mistakes. These are things I consider and want to n ow if anyone out there has struggled with the same issues what they did to overcome them and how I can apply it to me. The problem with America is not that it's full of pipe dreamers or people who feel owed something phenomenal it is in the individuals how far are you willing to go to make it. Adapt and over come. And SEMPER Fidelis ( always faithful) it's a matter of when and how not a matter of can or cannot with me. Thank you for you insightful response



I agree with you in concept, however reality doesn't always depend on concept.

I don't know where you are, however there are a few places in the USA that attract starving artists.  Hollywood and New York their actors and models, Nashville and our musicians.  Perseverance doesn't always make the difference between "Making It" and not "Making It".  I know a number of very talented (and I do mean VERY talented) musicians who have been trying for decades to break into the big leagues of music here.  I can tell you for an absolute fact that it isn't perseverance, it isn't abilities, it isn't drive.  In music, as in most forms of art, it is having the ability to stand above the crowd and a large dose of pure luck.  Being in the right place at the right time so that what you have is seen (or heard) by someone who can make use of it and take it to the next rung.  As Keith mentioned, had not the photographer for the Twilight Series happened to be noticed by the right person at the right time he probably would have never been more than another aspiring photographer.

Any artistic field is literally filled with mediocre, and in many cases sub-par, candidates for star-dom.  Each of them KNOWING that they can make it to the big times if they can just get that one break.  Each of them absolutely convinced that they are fabulous because their friends and family told them that they were.  As I said, if you want to be noticed your efforts have to stand out above the rest screaming to be noticed.  To do that you have to have abilities.  Simple perseverance won't do it, luck alone won't do it.

How you get that ability is up to you.  You can gain it through experience over the years or you can learn it in school or you can be taught by someone.  My recommendation is all three.  Don't be in a hurry.  If you start out with sub-par photographs that's what you'll be remembered for.  Learn everything you possibly can about photography and business on your own.  Shoot hundreds of thousands of photographs and find out what is good and bad about each of them.  Learn to avoid the things that are bad and enhance the things that are good.  Find someone who is willing to take you under their wing and get you pointed in the right direction.  Who knows, they might just be the one that gives you the break you are looking for.

Each and every day we see people on this forum who are convinced that despite the fact that they have only been shooting for a few weeks or months or years they are the greatest thing to ever peer through a lens.  They discount the fact that millions of people have felt the same way, and they are "The One" to defy the odds.  They are also usually the ones that fail miserably.

Again, follow your dream but hedge your bets.  Just because you WANT to be the best doesn't mean it WILL happen, but it can.  Your asking for advice as opposed to coming in and telling everyone how great you are is a step in the right direction (Even though your username does leave something to be desired).


----------



## jake337 (Feb 10, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> photogod88 said:
> 
> 
> > cgipson1 said:
> ...



As long as you can market it, and have clientale lined up to pay it, you can theoretically charge anything you want.

List of most expensive photographs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## jake337 (Feb 10, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There are plenty of musicians/artists out there make boat loads of cash and it's not always based on their "talent" but how they do business.


----------



## pixmedic (Feb 10, 2013)

you will really need to narrow down what type of photography you want to get paid to do. that will have a lot to do with determining what equipment you need, and what your target audience will be.  you will need a good business plan as well as a good marketing strategy, they are more important than any level of equipment or skill.   Before you do any paid work, you should have the legal end of your business set up. Tax ID, (so you can pay taxes on any income) fictitious name, (if your using one)  Business license, and insurance. my wife does weddings and portraits, and she has $1million in liability insurance. (and that seems to be the minimum amount to have nowadays from what I've heard) You should have all of that set up before you take on a paying client.  

After all the businesses legal requirements are set up, you can start looking into marketing, which will depend on what kind of photography you intend to do, and what area you are in.  A lot of people tend to skip the "business" part of a photography business, and to straight to shooting for money, usually with the excuse of "when i make enough money to get insurance, and pay taxes on the income I will." It is my opinion that the vast majority of people that start their "business" that way will never actually go through the effort of getting a tax ID, report their income, or pay for insurance, and my sympathy level for those people when they get caught, or sued, is zero. 

anyway...as far as getting paid what you are "worth"...well, thats a matter of perspective. it doesn't matter what YOU think you are worth, only what CLIENTS think you are worth.  you obviously have to charge more than it costs you to run the business. (insurance, equipment, gas, etc etc. you might get a good starting point by looking at what other photographers in your area charge for whatever type of photography you are trying to do. their cost of doing business may be different from yours, but it might at least give you an idea of what prices the market in your area will  bear.


----------



## usayit (Feb 10, 2013)

Its not wrong to want to get paid what you think is your worth.... Lots of people feel that way... using that as your sole premise to shore up your perceived value and next step is a waste of time. 

First thing to understand, you can't make people pay you your desired cost.   Hence all goods and services are subject to the free market.   Once you realize that and frame your thoughts around how to improve your standing within the market... then you are no longer wasting your time.


PS> There are tons of professions that are grossly underpaid for how they impact the world.  Paramedics, EMT, teachers... etc.   There are lots of people who make millions doing something that does little to contribute to the world.     Yes... it's an unfair f'd up world.


----------



## imagemaker46 (Feb 10, 2013)

I have always felt I should be making more money than I charge, but market dictates what I can charge.  Before digital I was charging pretty much what I wanted, post film, and especially in the past few years the market has changed and I don't charge what I want anymore, I charge what I know the clients are open to paying, based on their budgets and the fact that they are also willing to hire some person that hasn't got the same skills or experience as I have.  Often I am surprised when a client is willing to pay more than I would have asked, simply because they want me for the shoot and aren't interested in using anyone else.

Everyone feels they are worth more than what they get paid, some people are getting paid way more than they are worth and still complain.  I take work, and work around clients budgets, simply because I need the work to stay in the business and by working for less can also mean a steady client.  It sometimes comes down to doing more work to make the same money  I used to, but I'd rather make the money than give it to some pretender with a camera.

My biggest competition is other professionals also trying to stay in the business.  It's tough out there now.


----------



## KmH (Feb 10, 2013)

Professionalism is a tool that can be used to justify getting paid more, and projecting professionalism boils down to doing a lot of simple things consistently.

For instance, something as simple as making paragraphs so text is more readable. Text after all is a method of visual communication. 
Another way to look at it is from the perspective of 'presentation' of text. Presentation of course applies to the visual arts too.

Often the simple issues aren't consciously considered, by either side of a potential transaction.
The presenter doesn't consider the negative aspects of taking short cuts, and the receiver doesn't consider exactly why it is that they have a hesitancy to participating in the transaction.


----------



## Tony S (Feb 10, 2013)

Some of the msot succesful photographers are only average to ok photographers, but they are great business people and have the skills to promote themselves well and find  the market that will work for them.


----------



## pgriz (Feb 10, 2013)

Luck has a huge role to play in whether one is successful.  But successful people work hard at networking, getting their stuff around, knocking on as many doors as possible, because you never know which opening/opportunity may be the one to lead to things.  And when one of these random events clicks, you can call it luck.  Or you can call it hard work.  There is no guarantee that hard work will get you anywhere, but you improve your chances a lot by being "out there".  Mediocre hustlers are usually more successful than talented wallflowers.


----------



## thunderkyss (Feb 10, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Am I wrong for believing that I should be getting paid more for the work I am doing.
> 
> I am eager to learn and humble. I just want to continue to improve and stop taking crap for pay.



There is nothing wrong with wanting to get paid what you believe you should get paid. However, we generally have an inflated sense of worth. This job you did, where you were paid $50, was your customer happy with the results, does (s)he believe (s)he got a deal? Has that customer lined up the next gig yet? Have you talked about compensation yet? 

IMO, if you're serious about getting paid what you're worth, I'd define how much time I want to devote to this profession, maybe on a weekly basis, maybe a monthly basis... whatever is feasible. Identify what time slots you are willing to afford, then work towards filling those slots. Then work to fill those slots. Until those slots are full, something is wrong. Maybe your business model, maybe the quality of your work, maybe the compensation you expect to get. Tweak those, until you fill all your slots. 

This will help you quantify the demand for your work. Once you have all your slots filled, & you continue to get requests for your services, either schedule that customer out past all your filled slots, or ask for a premium to do the work outside of your defined slots. I'd also consider increasing my going rate if I have all my time slots filled over the next three weeks. 

That's if I were looking to get into this as a profession. I have no experience in anything like this, just thought it was interesting.


----------



## Patrice (Feb 10, 2013)

SCraig said:


> (Even though your username does leave something to be desired).




I was waiting for someone to comment on that.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

jake337 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> > photogod88 said:
> ...



Yea.. IF you have clientele lined up to pay it...   lol! I don't thing that is an issue here, at least not yet....


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

pgriz said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with Charlie, to a point.  Pricing theory usually says that demand and perceived value are the things that influence price the most.  *When there is much competition, and the product is close to being a commodity, then pricing according to the CODB makes sense as "usually" your competitors will have roughly similar cost*s and then you're in the ball-park.  Much of marketing theory is focused on creating differentiation and uniqueness, plus a perception of desire, that allows the seller to increase prices over CODB.  Luxury goods are sold on the "exclusivity" basis, and their costs of products are usually not much greater than those of the competitors, but they can demand a high premium because of perception.  Think of vodka, for example -* the top brands are up to several hundred times more expensive than the "no-name" brands, and yet, the basic product is the same.  Same for cars.  Same for drugs.  Same for top artists.*



LOTS of competition out there!  lol!

The OP is not there yet (as he states) ... maybe someday he can charge those high premiums... but right now, I would say CODB would be much more realistic, don't you agree?


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> So if I have to bee college educated to improve I will do I need to pay someone to teach me I will.



College! Business degree with lots of marketing... that will help you succeed more than being the world's best photographer!


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 10, 2013)

Patrice said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > (Even though your username does leave something to be desired).
> ...



I almost ignored the entire thread, because of the Username. lol!


----------



## pgriz (Feb 10, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> pgriz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to have to disagree with Charlie, to a point.  Pricing theory usually says that demand and perceived value are the things that influence price the most.  *When there is much competition, and the product is close to being a commodity, then pricing according to the CODB makes sense as "usually" your competitors will have roughly similar cost*s and then you're in the ball-park.  Much of marketing theory is focused on creating differentiation and uniqueness, plus a perception of desire, that allows the seller to increase prices over CODB.  Luxury goods are sold on the "exclusivity" basis, and their costs of products are usually not much greater than those of the competitors, but they can demand a high premium because of perception.  Think of vodka, for example -* the top brands are up to several hundred times more expensive than the "no-name" brands, and yet, the basic product is the same.  Same for cars.  Same for drugs.  Same for top artists.*
> ...



Agreed.  (but that's why I qualified by answer - if the OP understands how his "value" is determined, he has a much better chance of getting somewhere...).


----------



## sm4him (Feb 10, 2013)

techniker said:


> > I want my pay to match my work
> 
> 
> 
> Dont we all.



I told my boss it was time for me to start getting paid to match my work.  She said "Well, we've never actually cut someone's salary in half before, but if you insist..."


----------



## imagemaker46 (Feb 10, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Patrice said:
> 
> 
> > SCraig said:
> ...



I had once joked with a bunch of photographers years ago, while working as photo co-ordinator at a World Figure Skating Championships. I made some comment about being the "photo god"  At the next event, they presented me with a shirt and embroidered on it was "photo god"  We all had a good laugh about it, however I would never refer to myself in that manner, I would find it, the same way I found the Op using it, a laughable joke.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Feb 10, 2013)

Keep in mind the first rule of service based commerce, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay. Perceived value is infinitely more important than your skill. I could list off dozens of examples of photographers who are a lot more famous and high priced than their portfolio would indicate they should be. 

Finding a niche market is a great way to generate higher perceived value, and thereby, higher prices. If you're speaking to someone who appreciates exactly the type of work you specialize in, your perceived value is already much higher.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

pixmedic said:
			
		

> you will really need to narrow down what type of photography you want to get paid to do. that will have a lot to do with determining what equipment you need, and what your target audience will be.  you will need a good business plan as well as a good marketing strategy, they are more important than any level of equipment or skill.   Before you do any paid work, you should have the legal end of your business set up. Tax ID, (so you can pay taxes on any income) fictitious name, (if your using one)  Business license, and insurance. my wife does weddings and portraits, and she has $1million in liability insurance. (and that seems to be the minimum amount to have nowadays from what I've heard) You should have all of that set up before you take on a paying client.
> 
> After all the businesses legal requirements are set up, you can start looking into marketing, which will depend on what kind of photography you intend to do, and what area you are in.  A lot of people tend to skip the "business" part of a photography business, and to straight to shooting for money, usually with the excuse of "when i make enough money to get insurance, and pay taxes on the income I will." It is my opinion that the vast majority of people that start their "business" that way will never actually go through the effort of getting a tax ID, report their income, or pay for insurance, and my sympathy level for those people when they get caught, or sued, is zero.
> 
> anyway...as far as getting paid what you are "worth"...well, thats a matter of perspective. it doesn't matter what YOU think you are worth, only what CLIENTS think you are worth.  you obviously have to charge more than it costs you to run the business. (insurance, equipment, gas, etc etc. you might get a good starting point by looking at what other photographers in your area charge for whatever type of photography you are trying to do. their cost of doing business may be different from yours, but it might at least give you an idea of what prices the market in your area will  bear.



I agree I fear charging to much on the begging and take jobs for little money because I want the experience I want the client base but the whole start of this thread was because after I shot the picture for Montahg the Pr coordinator and the designer both told me that my work was far above the quality they were hoping for. They then told me that in the future they have no problem paying what I request because try were satisfied and happy with the results. My question is how does that need happen again laughing my ass off!


----------



## 2WheelPhoto (Feb 10, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Patrice said:
> 
> 
> > SCraig said:
> ...



yeah this thread delivers


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

2WheelPhoto said:
			
		

> yeah this thread delivers



The user name is not important I know it comes off very arrogant and as if I feel I am a photography genius. But my corporal who I served with god rest his soul. Sat me down when we were in Iraq during a counseling session. Long story short, he told me be more than just what you do or chose to do. A little back story about the situation I was a boot and deployed had no sense of myself and was freaking out. After he asked what I love to do and wanted to do. " don't just exist or due strive to become Immortal through what impressions you leave long after your gone. Become a god at photography". Is what he told me  08 is the year I joined the corps. I don't use that name for business I don't use it for clients it's just a user name on accounts I make related to bettering myself for photography. So excuse the misunderstanding. But my user name has a more meaning to me than I care for it to ever have to anyone who comes across it.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:
			
		

> Keep in mind the first rule of service based commerce, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay. Perceived value is infinitely more important than your skill. I could list off dozens of examples of photographers who are a lot more famous and high priced than their portfolio would indicate they should be.
> 
> Finding a niche market is a great way to generate higher perceived value, and thereby, higher prices. If you're speaking to someone who appreciates exactly the type of work you specialize in, your perceived value is already much higher.



Nice back story and that is funny. I don't consider myself nor will I ever consider myself to be a photo god. But the name has meaning from a person no longer with me


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

Oh and a little information about where I live causeway seems to be a key factor in some responses I get I live in Los Angeles better know as Burbank California I'm 5 minutes from Hollywood 30min  from downtown la and well enough said the photography market her is quite large.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 10, 2013)

I wanna thank all of you for being so open and doffed with your responses some are more geared toward my thinking than what to do but I feel that is more of a personalized and direct I have have some good thoughts and ideas come to mind


----------



## andywag (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Am I wrong for believing that I should be getting paid more for the work I am doing. The problem is before this recent shoot I had no example or portfolio of my quality of work. On the other hand feel free to help and offer suggestions of what I can improve In. Used to think it was my equipment I know now it's just experience and lack of understanding of my equipment and set up. I am well aware of the aggressive humor and feed back that comes with this forum and gotta say I love it. The one thing I have going for myself is I'm not sensitive. I am eager to learn and humble. I just want to continue to improve and stop taking crap for pay.



Hang about a mom.
You expect to be paid more because you believe the quality of your work warrants it and yet you have no examples of this "quality" work to prove that??

How does that work then?
 "oh yeah, I should be paid twice what you are offering because I produce great work". 
"show me some examples please".
"Oh sorry, I have no examples but you should take my word for it".

I don't think that really works, do you?

You also state that you don't understand your equipment?

I must say you have an interesting take on the world of professional photography.

It is all well and good thinking you should be paid more but no one is going to be willing to pay you more if you have no examples of your work and you don't even understand your equipment properly.

TBH, if you are getting paying work at all you should be thankful. The "more" will come when you are known as being able to produce good quality work and have a "name" for yourself. 


If you think you should be getting more than you currently are then pitch at those prices and see if anyone bites.


----------



## ronlane (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm with Charlie on this one about CODB. OP, you said that you had a shoot where you were paid $50 for your time, that's all well and good, but how much time did you have in those photos? Count all of your time for this, be honest. The time to get there, set up, take the pictures, go home, editing, re-editing. Then divide that $50 to see how well you did. I'm not even including the client paying for the rights (print or otherwise) for the photos.

The question to ask is how many photo shoots will you have to do per day/week to be able to survive?

Just a note, I did this with a recent shoot where I was paid $100 and when I did all the math, I was paid a handsome amount of $8.33 per hour. Not too bad for my hobby, I know that I could/can improve that as I get better with both the taking photos and editing them.

Good luck with your passion and goal.


----------



## imagemaker46 (Feb 11, 2013)

Being close to the "big market" in La also puts in one of those situations where you will be competing with a greater number of well established professionals and  well established amateurs that are working on the side selling.  You are a very small fish with a very big attitude wanting to work in a very big pond with photographers that would put most egos and attitudes to shame.  Good luck with it all and pray that there are some doors left open that will let you in.  Asking more than your un-established  and self-professed worth may close those doors.

Be humble in what you do and ask for, and just be happy to trying to  make it as a photographer.


----------



## jamesbjenkins (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Oh and a little information about where I live causeway seems to be a key factor in some responses I get I live in Los Angeles better know as Burbank California I'm 5 minutes from Hollywood 30min  from downtown la and well enough said the photography market her is quite large.



Translation: you live in a ridiculously saturated market where thousands of people magically became photographers over the last 3 years when the economy completely tanked and everyone started looking for extra revenue streams.

How are you any different from them? What can you offer your prospects that they can't? These are questions you have to answer, especially in L.A.


----------



## Patrice (Feb 11, 2013)

Hi there photogod88,

I've been following this thread and I'd like to touch on some points if I may.

But to start off can you please sign one of your posts with a real name like Bob or Joseph or something as I find it a bit awkward addressing a post to somebody called photogod88. You've explained where the monicker comes from and I get that but just humour us will you.

Photography is not nuclear science and the technicalities of producing a well exposed and composed image is not terribly difficult. A bit of practice in the various genres and some careful reading added to some critical self analysis will get you to producing well crafted images in a short time.

Many of the posts here have offered some valuable advice and insights, and as you've likely noticed many have said that success with photography as a business is not solely about great photos but also about developing and managing the business end of it. This includes product research, customer identification, cost analysis, marketing, continuing development, networking, and myriad other things. To that end there are many places where help can be accessed at relatively low cost. You don't need a college education in business and marketing to run a successful business but you do need to know the basics. I suggest you look into night courses and seminars. Community colleges and business development agencies everywhere offer courses in entrepreneurship, accounting, taxation, marketing, business development..etc. I suggest you avail yourself of these services, sometimes they are offered at little to no cost.

You've been told how saturated the supply of low cost photographic services is in your area. This may well be a fact but it does not mean you can't participate as well. However the difficult part is getting yourself known and developing a stable client base. This will require some leg work and a heavy investment of time from you. You'll have to make the time and do the work, there is no getting around that. Don't expect to land the big contracts with top models, big name artists or studio moguls in your first few years. Look around you, there are tons of places you could start your marketing efforts. Small restaurants want photos for their menus, small businesses have products they want to promote, start up advertising agencies need photos, auction houses need photos, community fundraising organization need photos, high school marching bands need photos, family generation gatherings need photos, business events need photos, little league and minor league sports teams need photos, strip joints need photos, used car lots need marketing photos.... anyway, I hope you get the point. Fashion houses and weddings are only a very small part of the market. Anybody who has something to sell, or promote or simply have a record of will need photography services.

So you need to get yourself out there with a portfolio. This is important. Make the effort to develop various ones on small and large product photos, events photos, sports photos, journalistic photos, portraits of individuals and groups, fashion photos, boudoir photos, etc. I think it's important to have portfolios suitable for the different types of photography. A real estate office will not be interested in pictures of cars and a mom and pop porno studio will not be wanting to see your little league pictures.

Getting and holding clients is about marketing. Assuming you've got the easy part done which is being able to produce quality images, the difficulty becomes effective communication. Not to be insulting but your english writing skills are not up to par. You'll often have to conduct your business through written communiques so it is important to be able to do it effectively. Please do yourself a favour and go get some further education in english. Seek out adult further education courses in your community. Often these are offered at very little cost and in a convenient evening schedule.


Anyway, I did not mean to lecture you or make fun of you, I'm simply trying to help you with the little bit I can contribute. You seem to be a sincere and honest individual and I wish you the best of luck in your photographic endeavours.

Pat


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

Patrice said:
			
		

> Hi there photogod88,
> 
> I've been following this thread and I'd like to touch on some points if I may.
> 
> ...



My name is mike thank you for inquiring


----------



## Tee (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Am I wrong for believing that I should be getting paid more for the work I am doing. The problem is before this recent shoot I had no example or portfolio of my quality of work. On the other hand feel free to help and offer suggestions of what I can improve In. Used to think it was my equipment I know now it's just experience and lack of understanding of my equipment and set up. I am well aware of the aggressive humor and feed back that comes with this forum and gotta say I love it. The one thing I have going for myself is I'm not sensitive. I am eager to learn and humble. I just want to continue to improve and stop taking crap for pay.



You are to be commended for your belief that your work is to be financially worth more.  However, have you had a real portfolio critique?  Honestly, these two images are the standard TPF year one member.  Have you thought about paying higher caliber models to improve your portfolio instead of expecting them to pay you?  A great model with a good look at a reasonable rate will advance your portfolio and gigs far more than you taking jobs for crap pay.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

Patrice said:
			
		

> Hi there photogod88,
> 
> I've been following this thread and I'd like to touch on some points if I may.
> 
> ...



Well thank you for the advice I don't take it as an insult, I don't even take it as a lecture. I am well aware that my grammatical and punctual capabilities are in severe need of some refinement. I posted two pictures from the shoot I did, not a single person has commented on the quality of them. Not that if someone decided to tell me that they were the worst type of picture the have seen(I would agree with them). I'm just curious to know, is my work really that bad in the eyes of other photographer? My desire to seek out wisdom from this forum stems from source. " a intelligent man learns from his mistake and a wise man learns from the mistakes of others." 

But so far I have learned several things. That as a photographer it is my personal code of moral ethics that keeps me getting low paid gigs.  

Because I can go back count how many people have made valid points it's a out willingness of the client to pay based on their perceived ( not actual) but perceived value of you and your work. Several of the fine men and woman of this forum have stated that they know of people who make money far above the value of their work. So I have an option now Pat. Am I wrong, either learn how to sell water to a fish and conduct myself in the most professional and pleasant way possible and be successful regardless of how amazing my work is.  Or by some random act of a dream coming true become the best in my field walk to stardom. This may be a crude explanation of some of the well put advice but sounds like quality is a matter of opinion and I as a individual have more control over the opinion of a client than my work. Cause if everyone is  telling me there are extremely talented people out there starving and they deserve it but don't have it then  business is business and it's about location opportunity market demand and well last but not least marketing. My only thing is I love photography to much to think about Turning it into  numbers and statistics but sounds like that is the difference between industry and well hobbies. Again sorry for the grammar and English and sorry for the lack of knowledge in the area I do appreciate those who have taken time out their day to talk to me since last night I booked a fashion shoot for 3 pictures for a website I said I don't want to leave my house for anything less than 500 and the are paying me so thanks guys. As well as a few people mentioned getting my insurance. I'm meeting with someone today to go over a business plan god bless everyone thank you much


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

imagemaker46 said:
			
		

> Being close to the "big market" in La also puts in one of those situations where you will be competing with a greater number of well established professionals and  well established amateurs that are working on the side selling.  You are a very small fish with a very big attitude wanting to work in a very big pond with photographers that would put most egos and attitudes to shame.  Good luck with it all and pray that there are some doors left open that will let you in.  Asking more than your un-established  and self-professed worth may close those doors.
> 
> Be humble in what you do and ask for, and just be happy to trying to  make it as a photographer.



I'm sorry if I come across arrogant or less that humble I don't think that was my position. I simply responded to post with my honest feelings about what I want to do that's all I'm in no aspect of I know myself and I am seeking self improvement. Your view has been received and the attitude will be check and I will humble myself more so. Thank you


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

ronlane said:
			
		

> I'm with Charlie on this one about CODB. OP, you said that you had a shoot where you were paid $50 for your time, that's all well and good, but how much time did you have in those photos? Count all of your time for this, be honest. The time to get there, set up, take the pictures, go home, editing, re-editing. Then divide that $50 to see how well you did. I'm not even including the client paying for the rights (print or otherwise) for the photos.
> 
> The question to ask is how many photo shoots will you have to do per day/week to be able to survive?
> 
> ...



I did the math I shot for 6 hours the client got 300 pictures including the web page pictures the pictures for the look book and the editorials for their clothing line. Someone stated in a response I'm a little fish with no established name for myself in a big market with leading professionals I agree. Prior to the shoot I had worked with the designer on a tfp project and that was no money however the client saw my work and liked it and decided he needed it for his line. Since then he has called me with a fellow designer willing to pay me 500 for the same shoot. So I guess that is improvement. I dont know CODB or any of that  care to elaborate?


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

andywag said:
			
		

> Hang about a mom.
> You expect to be paid more because you believe the quality of your work warrants it and yet you have no examples of this "quality" work to prove that??
> 
> How does that work then?
> ...



Ok thank you. I state I don't know how to use my equipment because well let's face it. I can't look at a photography and know how to reproduce it and or create similar lighting from just looking at it. I'm sure some photographer can. My statement of not knowing how to use my equipment is because I haven't put in my 10,000 hours yet. Does it or does it not take 10,000 hours to become a master of a craft? Why do you think I took the job for 50 I can't very well be arrogant and say oh I Deserve 1,000 dollars for these pics I am going to take that I have no examples of what I am taking. My whole premise of requesting advice was based on how do I walk away from a shoot while building a name for myself with more than just gas money so patrons on this thread have stated very well what I should do. But again here are samples from the shoot.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

Tee said:
			
		

> You are to be commended for your belief that your work is to be financially worth more.  However, have you had a real portfolio critique?  Honestly, these two images are the standard TPF year one member.  Have you thought about paying higher caliber models to improve your portfolio instead of expecting them to pay you?  A great model with a good look at a reasonable rate will advance your portfolio and gigs far more than you taking jobs for crap pay.



Thank you tee so your saying instead if doing paid jobs for an actual client. It would be better to pay some decent money to established models do a good job with them and build a solid portfolio from there? I posted two pictures from another shoot with a model. Tell me what you think of those please are they as well subpar tfp work.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

jamesbjenkins said:
			
		

> Translation: you live in a ridiculously saturated market where thousands of people magically became photographers over the last 3 years when the economy completely tanked and everyone started looking for extra revenue streams.
> 
> How are you any different from them? What can you offer your prospects that they can't? These are questions you have to answer, especially in L.A.



Well put James and I have taken those answers down and will answer them as I continue to seek improvement.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just keep in mind you can charge whatever you want to charge! The problem is,  IF the quality you deliver is not up to the standards of the client... and they feel you are vastly overcharging for what you produce, word of that will get out! And that can be very harmful to a new business. 

I am not judging your work for the lines above... just stating a general principle. But it was mentioned by another member that the photo's you posted are not exceptional. They look very much like what we often see from new photographers, not from seasoned pro's that can justify the rates they charge.

Just a word of advice, also. You state above you gave a client 300 images in a 6 hour shoot. I am assuming with that quantity of images... you probably did not edit them? I would advise that you only give a client your best.. and that means going through all images, ditching the bad ones, and at least doing minor corrections on the rest. If you hand out quantity over quality, it will come back to haunt you...


----------



## CCericola (Feb 11, 2013)

Here is a pretty good CODB calculator. https://nppa.org/calculator. Also, BUSINESS MANUAL - American Photographic Artists .
And since you are doing commercial work as apposed to retail or fine art I would invest in photography quote software. Like this: fotoQuote ? Stock and Assignment Photography Price Guide


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Just keep in mind you can charge whatever you want to charge! The problem is,  IF the quality you deliver is not up to the standards of the client... and they feel you are vastly overcharging for what you produce, word of that will get out! And that can be very harmful to a new business.
> 
> I am not judging your work for the lines above... just stating a general principle. But it was mentioned by another member that the photo's you posted are not exceptional. They look very much like what we often see from new photographers, not from seasoned pro's that can justify the rates they charge.
> 
> Just a word of advice, also. You state above you gave a client 300 images in a 6 hour shoot. I am assuming with that quantity of images... you probably did not edit them? I would advise that you only give a client your best.. and that means going through all images, ditching the bad ones, and at least doing minor corrections on the rest. If you hand out quantity over quality, it will come back to haunt you...



Thank you so much. An I know my work is not exceptional trust I am a hard critic of my own work. And the shoot was six hours. The client didn't get the pictures until a week after the shoot I spent 5 hours a day editing the pictures I did take before the client received them. That said. And knowing that you stated I'm not a season pro obviously far from it where do I go from here. It's not like I can just walk up to a photographer as ask can i be your assistant or can I work for you volunteer and see how you conduct yourself. Because I have tried. Photographers although we are a community are very spooked creatures. It is hard out there and demanding so the idea of some novice kid wanting to learn from you isn't exactly something that photographer jump at and say hear kid come with me on this shoot or ill sit you down and show you where you are failing and are coining up short. I do have a mentor he is a great guy but even his approach is shoot shoot shoot and study lighting when you understand lighting you will understand how to compose your images he also says why am I taking pictures if my pictures don't tell a story for the viewer than is just some " like you said novice first year photograph slightly better than someone with a point and shoot has done." So I am asking because I am wanting to improve thanks for your time.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

CCericola said:
			
		

> Here is a pretty good CODB calculator. https://nppa.org/calculator. Also, BUSINESS MANUAL - American Photographic Artists .
> And since you are doing commercial work as apposed to retail or fine art I would invest in photography quote software. Like this: fotoQuote ? Stock and Assignment Photography Price Guide



Thank you so much this is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely 
Mike


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> cgipson1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mike... Your mentor is right! Practice, reading and putting that into the practice, more practice trying different things with light, and yes... and more practice! That is how you learn... there is no shortcut really. That and having the best tools you can afford... they make it easier to apply what you learn in practice, and capture the best images possible. 

In almost all fields (including Photography) , even schools only teach the basics... it is up to the student to learn to apply those basics, and become advanced.


----------



## ronlane (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



CODB = Cost of doing business. Very simplistic version. You spent 6 hours shooting and 35 hours editing. Basically you did 40 hours of work. If you had to go out and get a job working 40 hours a week, what would you need to make? Would you take that job for $8.00 an hour, $10, $25? That's what you are trying to determine. I think the CODB calculator that is given will help. Even if you did that on the $500 it would be $500 divided by 41 = $12.20 an hour and that was just the time without covering any of your overhead.

I guess, I am making the arguement for your charging more money (heck we all on here want that), but your photos had to warrant it and you have to be able to know what your costs are when pricing a job. That is the life of a photographer. You want to know that you are taking a loss or less income when you take it not find out at the end.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

cgipson1 said:
			
		

> Mike... Your mentor is right! Practice, reading and putting that into the practice, more practice trying different things with light, and yes... and more practice! That is how you learn... there is no shortcut really. That and having the best tools you can afford... they make it easier to apply what you learn in practice, and capture the best images possible.
> 
> In almost all fields (including Photography) , even schools only teach the basics... it is up to the student to learn to apply those basics, and become advanced.



I hear you. It's just I'm at an impass there is a point where questions I have can't be answers by a book. Like I have a jar-head understanding of inverse square law and light fall of. I guess what I'm saying is that basics are an amazing thing and well I'm just going to start back at square one cause I feel I'm missing serious basics. It's hard to learn them from a book  though I Am a hands on learner and a visual one as well. You have been very helpful and I look forward to your insight or thoughts on future pictures I post really I chose the wrong tittle for this but I a way nothing is an accident. I wanted to k ow where to go from where I am at and what to do to become more professional as a photographer if I had posted that title I think I would have not received the same insight from all of you.


----------



## photogod88 (Feb 11, 2013)

ronlane said:
			
		

> CODB = Cost of doing business. Very simplistic version. You spent 6 hours shooting and 35 hours editing. Basically you did 40 hours of work. If you had to go out and get a job working 40 hours a week, what would you need to make? Would you take that job for $8.00 an hour, $10, $25? That's what you are trying to determine. I think the CODB calculator that is given will help. Even if you did that on the $500 it would be $500 divided by 41 = $12.20 an hour and that was just the time without covering any of your overhead.
> 
> I guess, I am making the arguement for your charging more money (heck we all on here want that), but your photos had to warrant it and you have to be able to know what your costs are when pricing a job. That is the life of a photographer. You want to know that you are taking a loss or less income when you take it not find out at the end.



What you just explained is a big help. And I will tell you this I am not saying I want more money cause I think my pictures are great. But I a client tells you after a shoot that they wish they could pay more or even that in the future they are willing to pay more there is a problem with what I am doing and you pointed it out. Thank you.


----------



## ronlane (Feb 11, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> ronlane said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying. Knowing some of these numbers will help you to price yourself. You really want the client to feel that they got their monies worth from the photos and you want to feel that you were compensated adequately as well.


----------



## bunny99123 (Feb 11, 2013)

SCraig said:
			
		

> Many times what one wants out of life takes second place to what they are able to get out of life.  Live in a place like I do and watch all the starving musicians doing everything they can to get the break that they feel that they deserve and that becomes obvious.  Photography, much like music, is only going to provide as much income as the market will bear.  Also, much like music, there are hundreds of thousands of photographers (and musicians and actors and models and artists) who think they are good enough to "Make It".
> 
> And maybe they are.  The dream does come true for a few, but most eventually become disillusioned and go back to whatever they did beforehand.  Follow your dreams but temper them with a dose of reality.  For every photographer who shoots for National Geographic or Life or Time or Maxim or Playboy or any other magazine there are thousands who don't.  If you want to be one of the very, very few then your photography has to stand head and shoulders above the rest and it has to do so on its own merits.
> 
> ...



You have excellent advice and wisdom!


----------



## Mully (Feb 11, 2013)

Once you are established it does not get down to nickels and dimes..... there are certain kinds of jobs to stay away from....but this takes time and today with so many people shooting even a lot more time..... I would not want to be starting out today


----------



## runnah (Feb 11, 2013)

Jeez, if I got paid for the amount of work I do, you'd all work for me.


----------



## bunny99123 (Feb 11, 2013)

I got out of HS and worked in chicken processing plants for pennies above minimum wage for years. I have worked in the wedding field, catering, cooking and factory. During this my dream was to be a teacher, so at age 30 I started college. I studied very very hard, because I knew I did not want to return to a chicken plant...no more Tyson! I graduated with high honors. Then I started teaching. The stress of working 16 hour days and no weekends off. Oh, ya those summer breaks are used a lot for hours of continuing Ed mandated by the state. I spent maybe 1/4 of my time actually teaching the rest was pencil pushing. I got so stressed out that I developed fibromyalgia, which is a genetic disorder. I had to resign from teaching. What I am trying to get across, is that sometimes your dream is not all good. I am very proud of the goals I have accomplished, but I wasn't aware of all energy and stress it took to do it. My advice is like others' learn business and marketing, but most of all learn stress management, because some jobs may not be worth it. I wish great success!


----------



## KmH (Feb 11, 2013)

CODB includes all your non-reimbursed business expenses, plus your time (salary).

Estimating your CODB and COGS is a central task when researching and writing a business plan. Starting a Business | SBA.gov
Free Small Business Advice | How-to Resources | Tools | Templates | SCORE

There are 3 main types of photography business, each with a different business model:
*Retail* - photos are bought and used by the people in the photos - portraits, high school seniors, weddings, maternity, kids, families, groups, action sports, Team and Individual sports, etc.
*Commercial* - photos are bought and used for advertising, product promotion, point of sale, annual reports, other shareholder publications, brochures, etc.
*Editorial* - photos are used in publications for purposes other than advertising and promotion of products.

American Society of Media Photographers
PPA | Professional Photographers of America 
Wedding Photography Association | WPPI
https://nppa.org/

Realistically, a full time retail photography business generally requires an average sale of about $1000 to break even which means providing the photographer a barely liveable, for 1 person income.

To determine the CODB for a retail photography business, divide the projected yearly non-reimbursed business expenses and salary by the number of shooting days projected for the year.
Or you can estimate it from a required salary.
Retail photography businesses that are well run and are home based rather than studio based can produce income at up to 25% of yearly revenue (about 20% is average).
Retail photography businesses that are well run and are studio based rather than studio based can produce income at up to 20% of yearly revenue (about 15% is average).
Don't forget. Being self-employed means part of your salary goes to state and federal personal income taxes (usually paid in quarterly installments), state unemployment insurance taxes, health insurance, etc.

*Shooting days*
There are 52 weeks per year. For vacation, sick days, seminars, convention, emergencies, holiday slow downs, etc write off at least 4 weeks. (There are 4.3 weeks per month)
Most of a retail photographers time is spent ding business tasks so assuming a 6 day work week figure as an average only 3 shooting days per week, and 3 business task days per week.
48 weeks x 3 shooting days per week = 144 shooting days per year. I rounded that to 145 shooting days per year.

If you have a home based business and require a yearly salary of:
$30,000 a year - $30,000 / 25% = $120,000 in yearly revenue. Projecting 145 shooting days a year, each shooting day has to generate average revenue of $120,000 / 145 = $827.59 ($10,000/month)
$50,000 a year - $50,000 / 25% = $200,000 in yearly revenue. Projecting 145 shooting days a year, each shooting day has to generate average revenue of $200,000 / 145 = $1379.31 ($16,700/month)

If the business is not well run and only produces income at about 20% of yearly revenue
$30,000 a year - $30,000 / 20% = $150,000 in yearly revenue. Projecting 145 shooting days a year, each shooting day has to generate average revenue of $150,000 / 145 = $1034.48 ($12,500/month}
$50,000 a year - $50,000 / 20% = $250,000 in yearly revenue. Projecting 145 shooting days a year, each shooting day has to generate average revenue of $250,000 / 145 = $1724.14 ($21,000/month)
($30,000 gross income for a self employed individual = about $17,500 a year take home pay - after taxes and health insurance costs.)

That said, if you want the business to have some cushion for down times, growth, equipment replacement, emergencies, ongoing education, industry conventions, etc. add 25% to the each shooting day required revenue numbers.
$827.59 + 25% = $1034.50
$1379.31 + 25% = $1724.15
etc, etc. etc.


----------



## myvinyl333 (Feb 15, 2013)

jake337 said:


> Whatever you think your work should be bringing in, add 20-30% and charge that!



 I was about to post a similar thread and still might be inclined to ask for thoughts. I agree with Jake's assessment. I just fell into to getting paid and had/have no idea what to charge. This is a great rule of thumb. And why do you need to get paid??? Ummm to help off set the amount of $$ I have put into my gear which is beyond recreational usage... thanks OP for posting!


----------



## gsgary (Feb 15, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Oh and a little information about where I live causeway seems to be a key factor in some responses I get I live in Los Angeles better know as Burbank California I'm 5 minutes from Hollywood 30min  from downtown la and well enough said the photography market her is quite large.



And is probably more oversaturated with Facebook photograophers than a small town, there is another million thinking the same as you


----------



## gsgary (Feb 15, 2013)

bunny99123 said:


> I got out of HS and worked in chicken processing plants for pennies above minimum wage for years. I have worked in the wedding field, catering, cooking and factory. During this my dream was to be a teacher, so at age 30 I started college. I studied very very hard, because I knew I did not want to return to a chicken plant...no more Tyson! I graduated with high honors. Then I started teaching. The stress of working 16 hour days and no weekends off. Oh, ya those summer breaks are used a lot for hours of continuing Ed mandated by the state. I spent maybe 1/4 of my time actually teaching the rest was pencil pushing. I got so stressed out that I developed fibromyalgia, which is a genetic disorder. I had to resign from teaching. What I am trying to get across, is that sometimes your dream is not all good. I am very proud of the goals I have accomplished, but I wasn't aware of all energy and stress it took to do it. My advice is like others' learn business and marketing, but most of all learn stress management, because some jobs may not be worth it. I wish great success!



You should be teaching in the UK they have more holidays than Thomas Cook


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 15, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> jake337 said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever you think your work should be bringing in, add 20-30% and charge that!
> ...



Really? I have about 20K in my gear (is that beyond recreational?)... I don't feel like I have to make money with it to justify having it.....


----------



## myvinyl333 (Feb 15, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > jake337 said:
> ...


So do I and one body would be recreational, not three. I could use some paid photo gigs to help offset the expenses I put in each month. Maybe your finances allow for a 20K rec department...


----------



## SCraig (Feb 15, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> ...Ummm to help off set the amount of $$ I have put into my gear which is beyond recreational usage... thanks OP for posting!



More than a bass boat?  More than an RV?  More than a jet ski?  More than a motorcycle?  More than a golf cart?  The list could easily go on.


----------



## Pallycow (Feb 15, 2013)

gsgary said:


> is probably more oversaturated with Facebook photograophers




That's my town for certain.  I struggle getting my 200 bucks for an hour studio session.


----------



## myvinyl333 (Feb 15, 2013)

SCraig said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Ummm to help off set the amount of $$ I have put into my gear which is beyond recreational usage... thanks OP for posting!
> ...



I get plenty of excitement from shooting, much more than any boat or golf cart, but my gear is necessary for me to run my site and some decent income from shooting would be good.


----------



## cgipson1 (Feb 15, 2013)

SCraig said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Ummm to help off set the amount of $$ I have put into my gear which is beyond recreational usage... thanks OP for posting!
> ...



Yep... every golfer with their own clubs.. much less a golf cart, should go PRO!


----------



## ronlane (Feb 15, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...




woohooooo!! that makes me pro at photography AND golf. Look out Tigger, here I come. (world golf ranking ??????)


----------



## pixmedic (Feb 15, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> SCraig said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...



If the gear is necessary for your site, and the site isn't bringing in enough income to cover the expense of the gear needed to run it...then its the site that's the problem...not a lack of income from the photography gear.


----------



## skieur (Feb 15, 2013)

The different approach is to diversify into media production and work for companies as opposed to individuals on a contract or project basis.  The result is more money.

skieur


----------



## myvinyl333 (Feb 15, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > SCraig said:
> ...


I disagree.  Charging for my work is income for the site. I have been hired as an event photographer for a casino and that $ will go towards the site.


----------



## usayit (Feb 15, 2013)

My business plan....

Buy more gear

Make more money.

Repeat

Isn't that how it works?


----------



## pixmedic (Feb 15, 2013)

myvinyl333 said:


> pixmedic said:
> 
> 
> > myvinyl333 said:
> ...



If its a photography business site then sure.  If not,  your just using company assets not making money for its intended business for other ventures.  Nothing wrong with that... But its still an issue with the site not paying for things it needs to run. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## myvinyl333 (Feb 15, 2013)

pixmedic said:


> myvinyl333 said:
> 
> 
> > pixmedic said:
> ...



It is a music photography based website that features live concert photos... heading to Madison Sat for one shoot with lots of out of pocket expenses, all of my own choosing, need the coverage for the site .


----------



## SCraig (Feb 15, 2013)

cgipson1 said:


> Yep... every golfer with their own clubs.. much less a golf cart, should go PRO!



I thought they all did


----------



## BrianV (Feb 15, 2013)

You need to work for less than you are worth when starting off to build up experience and a portfolio. It's that way in a lot of fields, but especially true for photography.

At some point in any career- the more important question becomes "do you like what you do, are you happy with your work?" Get a "Yes" to that answer, the money will probably just come.


----------



## Steve5D (Feb 16, 2013)

photogod88 said:


> Am I wrong for believing that I should be getting paid more for the work I am doing... I just want to continue to improve and stop taking crap for pay.



One of the best guitarists I've ever known is a guy you'll never hear of. He'll flat out play circles around _anyone _you can name. How he's not on tour and recording Grammy winning albums is beyond me. The guy is so good it's stupid. I'm relatively certain that, at some point in life, he sold his soul to the Devil.

But you'll never hear of him.

He's a software designer in upstate New York, and lives a quiet life in suburbia. He's got a day job, and that's what pays the bills. He gets paid for playing guitar, but not to the point where it's "quit your job" money.

Another friend is a musician, and he's currently on tour with a national act. He's a good musician, but not someone I would consider "stellar". What I consider him to be, though, is meaningless. The person fronting the band has decided he wants my friend on tour with him. My friend is now making some _serious _money on the road.

I've always likened "making it" as a photographer to "making it" as a musician. You can be amazing and make a relative pittance, like my first friend, or you can simply be "good" and make tons of money like my second friend. How you see yourself, and what you believe you should be making, is only a part of the equation and, it could be argued, not the most important part.


----------

